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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 18th, 2010

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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Links 17/8/2010: Palamida Joins #Linux Foundation, Natty Narwhal is Next Ubuntu http://ur1.ca/161t4 #techrightsAug 18 00:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Links 17/8/2010: Palamida Joins Linux Foundation, Natty Narwhal is Next Ubuntu | Techrights .::. Size~: 126.67 KBAug 18 00:02
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz/@schestowitz] Links 17/8/2010: Palamida Joins !Linux Foundation, Natty Narwhal is Next Ubuntu http://ur1.ca/161t4 !techrightsAug 18 00:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Links 17/8/2010: Palamida Joins Linux Foundation, Natty Narwhal is Next Ubuntu | Techrights .::. Size~: 126.67 KBAug 18 00:04
DaemonFCheh, NattyAug 18 00:05
DaemonFCas in slang word for Natural IceAug 18 00:06
DaemonFCcheap beerAug 18 00:06
DaemonFCtrailer parksAug 18 00:06
DaemonFC:DAug 18 00:06
DaemonFCUbuntuAug 18 00:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Spent the last 10mins in Backtrack, very slick USB distro, all I need now is to learn how to use the tools :P http://bit.ly/8HZqd0Aug 18 00:07
TechrightsBotTitle: BackTrack Linux - Penetration Testing Distribution .::. Size~: 23.88 KBAug 18 00:07
DaemonFCoiaohm, Do you figure I could format a Micro SDXC card as FAT32 and read it in an SDHC reader?Aug 18 00:15
oiaohmHmmAug 18 00:15
oiaohmMaybe.Aug 18 00:16
DaemonFC64 GB Micro SD card would be nice to haveAug 18 00:16
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubevector cubezzzAug 18 00:16
DaemonFCjust that nothing reads Fat64Aug 18 00:16
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitz schestowitz_logAug 18 00:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Why do football pundits insist players have to get hold of the ball? That's cheating, well, except for the goalie ;)Aug 18 00:17
DaemonFChttp://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/08/obama-traffic-nightmare-leaves-residents-with-lingering-road-rage.htmlAug 18 00:32
TechrightsBotTitle: Obama traffic nightmare leaves residents with lingering road rage | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times .::. Size~: 101.62 KBAug 18 00:32
DaemonFCheheAug 18 00:32
DaemonFCmiles of cars sitting there idling for hours so Obama can go raise money for the DemocratsAug 18 00:34
DaemonFCwonder how good that is for the environment Aug 18 00:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Journalism Professor Adds Wiki Sensibility To Crowdsourced Fact Checking: WikiFactCheck http://dlvr.it/3wXv3Aug 18 00:35
TechrightsBotTitle: Journalism Professor Adds Wiki Sensibility To Crowdsourced Fact Checking: WikiFactCheck | Techdirt .::. Size~: 20.67 KBAug 18 00:35
DaemonFCschestowitz, You've heard the expression that "only a dead fish swims with the current all the time", right? ;)Aug 18 00:36
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oiaohmOk where is that expression from DaemonFCAug 18 00:46
oiaohmI have never heard it before.Aug 18 00:46
DaemonFCno clueAug 18 00:47
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DaemonFChttp://support.microsoft.com/kb/143395Aug 18 01:11
TechrightsBotTitle: Microsoft Exchange Folder Name Truncated to "Micros~1" .::. Size~: 42.16 KBAug 18 01:11
DaemonFChehAug 18 01:11
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DaemonFChttp://www.letra.org/spip/IMG/jpg/isheep.jpgAug 18 01:41
TechrightsBotTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 18 01:41
DaemonFChttp://www.blogcdn.com/www.tuaw.com/media/2006/05/isheep.jpgAug 18 01:42
TechrightsBotTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 18 01:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Having a lot of fun, setting up a old school (telnet) BBS using RA, FroDo, Fmail under Dosbox using modemu #gnu #linux #ubuntu #nostalgiaAug 18 01:50
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[einfeldt] Used my Linux-powered Droid 2day 2 find petrol. I don't normally drive, so had no clue where a gas sation was.Aug 18 01:51
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @ml2mst: This is just big FUN, checking out if I still know how to setup everything, to a complete (telnet based) working system ;-)Aug 18 02:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @ml2mst: My apologies, I meant "Their beloved Microsoft Windows".Aug 18 02:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents Pragmatism: supporting all approaches leading to improvement, while criticising the ineffective ones. #swpatAug 18 02:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents No need to antagonize contributors, no need to fight suboptimal solutions, better focus on the problems to be solved.Aug 18 02:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Can Science Fiction Predict The Future Of Journalism? http://dlvr.it/3wkLSAug 18 02:34
TechrightsBotTitle: Can Science Fiction Predict The Future Of Journalism? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 21.86 KBAug 18 02:34
DaemonFChttp://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iz56IYaCQ_TzcbeEKyhSSvBQx4vwAug 18 02:47
TechrightsBotTitle: AFP: Bing starts powering Yahoo! searches in US .::. Size~: 9.57 KBAug 18 02:47
DaemonFCMore Bong Interop!Aug 18 02:47
DaemonFC:DAug 18 02:47
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents TomTom was no OIN member, afawk they pay roalties for FAT patentsAug 18 03:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents For companies protective or aggressive licensing portfolios are similar business schemes, they are asked to payAug 18 03:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents OIN protects projects for free which in return provide a 'sales argument'; patent trolls usually don't sue projects: no moneyAug 18 03:22
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DaemonFChttp://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-teens-hearing-loss-20100818,0,559994.storyAug 18 05:15
TechrightsBotTitle: More U.S. teens are experiencing hearing loss - latimes.com .::. Size~: 169.03 KBAug 18 05:15
FurnaceBoyi'm not surprised.Aug 18 05:21
DaemonFCthose damned in-ear headphones Aug 18 05:22
DaemonFCthere's no way those can be safeAug 18 05:22
DaemonFCeven at reasonable volumeAug 18 05:22
FurnaceBoyrightAug 18 05:22
FurnaceBoyi agreeAug 18 05:23
DaemonFCnowhere for the pressure to go except up against your eardrumAug 18 05:23
DaemonFC:PAug 18 05:23
DaemonFCI've never been able to tolerate wearing those for long, after 20-30 minutes I feel disoriented and sickAug 18 05:24
DaemonFChttp://www.betanews.com/article/RIAA-broadcasters-want-mandatory-FM-radio-in-cell-phones-electronics/1282066883Aug 18 05:32
TechrightsBotTitle: RIAA, broadcasters want mandatory FM radio in cell phones, electronics | Tech Gear News - Betanews .::. Size~: 30.68 KBAug 18 05:32
DaemonFCWho the hell needs an FM radio in an MP3 player?Aug 18 05:33
DaemonFCisn't the point of the device to listen to whatever you want to put on it, without advertising?Aug 18 05:33
DaemonFCyou could go get a pocket FM radio for $1 at most discount stores :PAug 18 05:33
oiaohmYou are not thinking.  DaemonFCAug 18 05:41
oiaohmOnce you have a reciever in the device what is next means to broadcast out nicked song detection filters.  DaemonFCAug 18 05:42
oiaohmRIAA can win out of this,  DaemonFCAug 18 05:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] NY Times Tests A Paywall With A Regional Paper http://dlvr.it/3x2H6Aug 18 05:45
TechrightsBotTitle: NY Times Tests A Paywall With A Regional Paper | Techdirt .::. Size~: 20.17 KBAug 18 05:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@rww 17-Year Old @Twitter #Spam mer Scores #Facebook CEO as New Friend http://rww.tw/bRL7eg // perhaps one day they'll be cellmatesAug 18 05:54
TechrightsBotTitle: 17-Year Old Twitter Spammer Scores Facebook CEO as New Friend .::. Size~: 56.39 KBAug 18 05:54
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@thegrumpyowl money's very interesting if you have none or very little. Because it means eating, or being out of the rain,or not being sickAug 18 06:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@thegrumpyowl but beyond a point it's deathly boring. Look at Madoff. He looks bored almost to death. Wanted 2 be caught to prick the ennuiAug 18 06:06
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DaemonFChttp://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/business/18shop.html?_r=1&src=meAug 18 06:11
TechrightsBotTitle: The New York Times > Log In .::. Size~: 9.04 KBAug 18 06:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@saintpaul007 RT @Socialism4USA hope Palin personally campaigns 4 every Republican running in Nov // sounds like *work*. would never happenAug 18 06:11
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you read the NYT?!Aug 18 06:11
DaemonFCwhy not?Aug 18 06:12
FurnaceBoysighAug 18 06:13
DaemonFCWalmart is finding out that their price slashing doesn't matterAug 18 06:13
DaemonFCsince out of work = out of money, period Aug 18 06:13
FurnaceBoycall me when they don't existAug 18 06:13
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 06:13
DaemonFCbasically their rollbacks have caused their losses to mount Aug 18 06:14
FurnaceBoydid anyone really not think it was a house of fracking cardsAug 18 06:14
FurnaceBoysow, reap, haha, hahahahah, hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaAug 18 06:14
DaemonFCbecause instead of luring customers into the store by reducing prices on groceries and such, they simply lowered their margin on things people HAVE to buy one way or anotherAug 18 06:14
oiaohmProblem is we know the house of cards is falling.Aug 18 06:15
DaemonFCand failed to cross sell other merchandise Aug 18 06:15
oiaohmWe don't know were the floor is.  FurnaceBoyAug 18 06:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: indeedAug 18 06:15
FurnaceBoythe unsinkableAug 18 06:16
FurnaceBoyCaptain Ayn Rand, iceberg spotterAug 18 06:16
*FurnaceBoy gigglesAug 18 06:16
oiaohmTrillion dollars disappearsAug 18 06:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: where did you see it last?Aug 18 06:16
oiaohmwould have been damaging.Aug 18 06:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's probably where you left itAug 18 06:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: check under the couch cushionsAug 18 06:16
oiaohmThat is the fall out from the first sub prime lot.  FurnaceBoyAug 18 06:17
oiaohm1 trillion dollars of virtual money ceased to exist.Aug 18 06:17
cubevectorwalmart sucksAug 18 06:17
cubevectorI never go thereAug 18 06:17
FurnaceBoycubevector: it shouldn't be hereAug 18 06:17
cubevectoryesAug 18 06:17
FurnaceBoycubevector: it's a noxious weedAug 18 06:17
DaemonFCI find that when I lose trillions of dollars, it's usually either in the couch cushions or in that coat I wore last winter Aug 18 06:17
DaemonFC:DAug 18 06:17
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oiaohmProblem is as more and more of the sub prime area gets value corrected to where it should be.Aug 18 06:18
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: I found $2t under the bed yesterdayAug 18 06:18
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the dust bunnies were discussing investment optionsAug 18 06:18
oiaohmWe expect another 2 to 3 trillion to disappear out the system.Aug 18 06:18
DaemonFCthat's nothing, I reached under the driver's seat in my car and found the ark of the covenant Aug 18 06:18
FurnaceBoy'disappear'Aug 18 06:18
DaemonFC(and some moldy french fries)Aug 18 06:18
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's very good, what you do is replace destroyed value with public cash.Aug 18 06:19
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: disappears equally fast, but some people really enjoy the processAug 18 06:19
oiaohmThere is nothing to replace it FurnaceBoyAug 18 06:19
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: well maybe not the SECOND timeAug 18 06:19
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: but the first time was fun!Aug 18 06:19
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FurnaceBoywheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeAug 18 06:19
oiaohmThere are 3 more yet.Aug 18 06:19
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: I'm alright jack, just keep your hands off-a my stack!Aug 18 06:19
oiaohmWe are on to the second now. Aug 18 06:19
DaemonFCyeah, they've been covering up the unemployment and cooking the books so it looks like we don't have deflation Aug 18 06:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: I think I need a LearjetAug 18 06:20
DaemonFCand by the time they can't lie about it anymore...wellAug 18 06:20
DaemonFCI guess on paper the bottom will just fall out all at onceAug 18 06:20
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: Elvis will have left the building. He's packing already.Aug 18 06:20
oiaohmHeck you might even be able to get one going cheep.  FurnaceBoyAug 18 06:20
DaemonFCbut really we're getting thereAug 18 06:20
oiaohmFrom the poor guys who cannot afford to fly it any more FurnaceBoyAug 18 06:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] @ffii 2x wrong. OIN "protects" a list of companies WRT a list of files, NOT "projects for free". TomTom became a member but pays royalties.Aug 18 06:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: Every day the paper boy brings moreAug 18 06:20
DaemonFCWell, what's insane is that they're comparing this to Japan 10 years agoAug 18 06:21
FurnaceBoywhy doesn't fosspatents make that a public conversation.Aug 18 06:21
FurnaceBoysighAug 18 06:21
DaemonFCwhich was a little bitty country in a not hopeless situationAug 18 06:21
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 06:21
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: share it fairly but don't take a slice of MY pieAug 18 06:21
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, Our governor keeps blasting Obama for beign wasteful while pointing out we have a billion dollar "rainy day fund"Aug 18 06:22
FurnaceBoyit isn't waste till u waste it Aug 18 06:22
DaemonFCwhich was created by shoving money into it from the federal stimulus grantsAug 18 06:22
oiaohmJapan 10 years ago was nothing.Aug 18 06:22
FurnaceBoyDick Cheney probably could have expensed JapanAug 18 06:23
oiaohmThe ammount of money gone in the Japan case was barely half a trillion dollars.Aug 18 06:23
oiaohmIe nothing.Aug 18 06:23
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FurnaceBoyi dropped that in a panhandler's cup last weekAug 18 06:23
oiaohmwhole was filled with sub prime.Aug 18 06:23
oiaohmThere is nothing to fill the sub prime hole.Aug 18 06:23
oiaohmBasically all sub prime allowed the failures in japan and the like to be sent into the future to now.Aug 18 06:24
oiaohmPlus a huge case of over drive.Aug 18 06:24
FurnaceBoyniteAug 18 06:25
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Sometimes mishearing something can be funny, speaking of which, wtf is a 'penis butter sandwich' and why did Elvis love em? ;)Aug 18 06:26
DaemonFChttp://www.tomshardware.com/news/internet-explorer-chrome-firefox-safari-opera,11103.htmlAug 18 06:28
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] #Ubuntu Shuttleworth is wrong about large corporations http://zd.net/cN4V5W For them the software patent troll problem is *easily* bearable.Aug 18 07:19
TechrightsBotTitle: Shuttleworth: Oracle dooms its prospects in open source business | ZDNet  .::. Size~: 94.99 KBAug 18 07:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Why you must says that - "Linux has no virus at all" http://tinyurl.com/2cabq8l #blogAug 18 07:27
TechrightsBotTitle: Narendra Sisodiya's weblog: Why you must says that - "Linux has no virus at all" .::. Size~: 84.1 KBAug 18 07:27
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Court Tells Mall That It Cannot Ban Customers From Talking To Strangers http://dlvr.it/3xL50Aug 18 08:55
TechrightsBotTitle: Court Tells Mall That It Cannot Ban Customers From Talking To Strangers | Techdirt .::. Size~: 26.82 KBAug 18 08:55
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] I just verified my first citizen of the Transnational Republic so he can now get his Identity Card. #UTNR #proudAug 18 09:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] Nice. My blog post at http://is.gd/emTHl resulted in 600% more visits on my site. Seems discussing #ORCL is a traffic booster ;-)Aug 18 09:10
TechrightsBotTitle: Jan Wildeboer  » Blog Archive   » Oracles next target? Power switches #notkidding #irony .::. Size~: 25.95 KBAug 18 09:10
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] RT @jwildeboer Nice. My blog post at http://is.gd/emTHl resulted in 600% more visits on my site. Seems discussing #ORCL is a traffic boo ...Aug 18 09:24
TechrightsBotTitle: Jan Wildeboer  » Blog Archive   » Oracles next target? Power switches #notkidding #irony .::. Size~: 25.95 KBAug 18 09:24
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MinceRgeekingsAug 18 09:43
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[wikileaks] Thailand uses emergency powers to block WikiLeaks | AFP http://bit.ly/b2cUjSAug 18 09:56
TechrightsBotTitle: Bangkok Post : Thailand blocking WikiLeaks -- official .::. Size~: 23.31 KBAug 18 09:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] RT @bugabundo N-imal? http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/478Aug 18 09:59
TechrightsBotTitle: Mark Shuttleworth  » Blog Archive   » N-imal? .::. Size~: 48.83 KBAug 18 09:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[wikileaks] RSF: "We reaffirm our support for Wikileaks, its work and its founding principles. " http://bit.ly/9CfZ4fAug 18 10:06
TechrightsBotTitle: Reporters Sans Frontières - "Criticism of Wikileaks is not a call for censorship or support for the war"  .::. Size~: 39.94 KBAug 18 10:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] The 2 faces of the #mainframe: legacy & new workloads; the role of z/Linux http://bit.ly/8ZhYpp #systemz #ibm #antitrust #linuxAug 18 10:07
TechrightsBotTitle: FOSS Patents: The two faces of the mainframe: different economics for legacy and new workloads .::. Size~: 61.01 KBAug 18 10:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] ♺ @softmetz: Mal schauen wann die unanonymisierte DB von #lqfb bei Wikileaks landet. :)Aug 18 10:32
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[wikileaks] Be an Army of One for Bradley Manning http://bit.ly/bs0oNUAug 18 10:56
TechrightsBotTitle: FreeBradley.org * Be An Army Of One For Bradley Manning .::. Size~: 1.26 KBAug 18 10:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] Ma gucken wie lange es dauert bis die von-der-Leyen Card als #AsoCard oder #Hartzcard oder #armexcard bezeichnet wird.Aug 18 11:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Links 18/8/2010: PC-BSD 8.1 Reviewed, Vim 7.3 Released http://techrights.org/2010/08/18/vim-7-3-released/Aug 18 11:24
TechrightsBotTitle: Links 18/8/2010: PC-BSD 8.1 Reviewed, Vim 7.3 Released | Techrights .::. Size~: 105.95 KBAug 18 11:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Sitting at CCD-Select City Walk.. raining outside..Aug 18 11:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Actually Google has NIHS NIHS - "not invented here syndrome"Aug 18 11:43
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Feds Won't Bring Charges Against School District Officials In Webcam Spying http://dlvr.it/3xcP4Aug 18 11:58
TechrightsBotTitle: Feds Won't Bring Charges Against School District Officials In Webcam Spying | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.68 KBAug 18 11:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Techrights on Netcraft http://ur1.ca/167jl #Techrights is ranked 951st in Netcraft. WIthout readers, the site would not be possibleAug 18 12:01
TechrightsBotTitle: Techrights on Netcraft | Techrights .::. Size~: 90.47 KBAug 18 12:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Why ARM and Android is future and why you should invest your energy in Android http://tinyurl.com/245z84h #blogAug 18 12:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Narendra Sisodiya's weblog: Why ARM and Android is future and why you should invest your energy in Android .::. Size~: 85.55 KBAug 18 12:02
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz/@schestowitz] Techrights on Netcraft http://ur1.ca/167jl !Techrights is ranked 951st in Netcraft. WIthout readers, the site would not be possibleAug 18 12:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Techrights on Netcraft | Techrights .::. Size~: 90.47 KBAug 18 12:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @lnxwalt Wanting to write blog post about #Oracle vs #Google, but too tired to organize my thoughts. #SCOracle #java #Android #swpatsAug 18 12:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] I am really very happy to ECB guys/gals and LUG at Bikaner. you all rocks !! #lugb #bikanerAug 18 12:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Indian Rupee sign Survey. Alt + ` http://www.kwiksurveys.com/online-survey.php?surveyID=KBHKGJ_fd30339a&UID=3157470909Aug 18 12:26
TechrightsBotTitle: Placement of the Indian-Rupee Sign on QWERTY Keyboards .::. Size~: 14.97 KBAug 18 12:26
MinceRhttp://main.makeuseoflimited.netdna-cdn.com/tech-fun/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/dinotwitter.jpgAug 18 12:37
TechrightsBotTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 18 12:37
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MinceRon the myth of KDE being "bloated" vs GNOME >> http://people.freebsd.org/~adamw/gnome_kde_deps/Aug 18 13:11
TechrightsBotTitle: FreeBSD Homepages - redirect .::. Size~: 0.83 KBAug 18 13:11
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sebsebseb Aug 18 13:24
MinceR                                                                                                                                                                                                         Aug 18 13:29
sebsebsebMinceR:  Aug 18 13:29
sebsebseb Aug 18 13:29
MinceR:)Aug 18 13:29
sebsebseb:)Aug 18 13:29
sebsebseb:DAug 18 13:30
m1k11eI just posted somthing (albeit late) to /. in atempt to figt de icaza FUDAug 18 13:35
m1k11ehttp://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1752790&cid=33286468Aug 18 13:35
TechrightsBotTitle: Slashdot Comments | Oracle Sues Google For Infringing Java Patents .::. Size~: 38.78 KBAug 18 13:35
m1k11ePlease vote up. Aug 18 13:35
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] Pedi uma pizza no Eataly do Allegro de Alfragide mas qd a tiraram do forno parte escorregou e caiu no chao. Tentaram disfarcar mas eu vi.Aug 18 13:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] La tiveram que fazer outra...Aug 18 13:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I'm at Hendon Central Station (Hendon, London). http://4sq.com/9ooxQCAug 18 13:55
TechrightsBotTitle: foursquare    :: Hendon Central Station    :: London, UK   .::. Size~: 16.97 KBAug 18 13:55
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Ziodotmatrixshakeup among shareholders over accounting fraud and extrovertly cozy relationship with Intel could cost Dell founder his job: http://tinyurl.com/26xake6Aug 18 14:01
TechrightsBotTitle: The New York Times > Log In .::. Size~: 9 KBAug 18 14:01
ZiodotmatrixIn case NYTimes doesn't let you view it: http://tinyurl.com/26vqnq8Aug 18 14:03
TechrightsBotTitle: Michael Dell given an unsubtle hint by displeased shareholders -- Engadget .::. Size~: 69.23 KBAug 18 14:03
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] My grandpa met the UK Home Secretary last night and it turns out she still remember meeting me, which is greatAug 18 14:04
oiaohmYep the annoyance of paywalls ZiodotmatrixAug 18 14:06
Ziodotmatrixoiaohm: interesting that only non-corporate individuals can't hyperlink it to others.Aug 18 14:08
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Now That The Ringtone Market Is Collapsing, Are There Lessons For Those Who Are Jumping On The App Bandwagon? http://dlvr.it/3xq4kAug 18 14:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Now That The Ringtone Market Is Collapsing, Are There Lessons For Those Who Are Jumping On The App Bandwagon? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 22.58 KBAug 18 14:08
Ziodotmatrixyes, make relevant appsAug 18 14:09
oiaohmlwn does not for current weeks news.  ZiodotmatrixAug 18 14:09
oiaohmIts a sanish paywall.Aug 18 14:09
oiaohmOnce the news is one week old its open to all at lwnAug 18 14:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] Tomorrow morning the 4 shiny new servers for #UTNR will be connected to the tubes of the internets.Aug 18 14:09
sebsebsebI used trried Facebok chat in EmpathyAug 18 14:12
sebsebseband wowAug 18 14:12
sebsebseb:)Aug 18 14:12
sebsebsebnice calender feature for the logs and yeahAug 18 14:12
MinceRtoo bad it's fecesbookAug 18 14:12
Ziodotmatrixok gotta goAug 18 14:13
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oiaohmhttp://blog.namei.org/2010/08/18/linux-security-summit-2010-wrapup/  Interesting read that the desktop really did not come up this year.Aug 18 14:21
TechrightsBotTitle: Linux Security Summit 2010  Wrapup | James Morris .::. Size~: 40.88 KBAug 18 14:21
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20100813164115924&title=Here+are+some+links&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=869389#c869393 http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20100813112425821&title=Linux+Weekly+News+has+some+coverage&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=868745#c869220Aug 18 14:24
TechrightsBotTitle: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 15.09 KBAug 18 14:24
TechrightsBotTitle: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 19.47 KBAug 18 14:24
schestowitzFlorian buster in GroklawAug 18 14:24
schestowitz"Aug 18 14:24
schestowitzIn the LinuxWeeklyNews discussion he posts links to a blog postingAug 18 14:24
schestowitzon GPL-MySQL and says - I quote - "PJ was lying through her teeth",Aug 18 14:24
schestowitzhe says he argued against not for a license change. Published someAug 18 14:24
schestowitzFAQs on Oracle Sun and a presentation he gave in the US. Haven't hadAug 18 14:25
schestowitztime yet to download them from Scribd.Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzHe says the same over at Techrights.Aug 18 14:25
schestowitz"Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20100813164115924&title=Florian+Alert+-+attacks+PJ+harder+than+ever&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=868849#c869380Aug 18 14:25
TechrightsBotTitle: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 69.54 KBAug 18 14:25
schestowitzBtw, he got completely busted in comments on Techrights:Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzhttp://techrights.org/2010/08/14/moglen-on-java-and-virnetx/Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzMuller continues to advocate paying royalties and using GPL-incompatible RANDAug 18 14:25
TechrightsBotTitle: Software Patents Crisis | Techrights .::. Size~: 229.39 KBAug 18 14:25
schestowitzterms.Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzAs a bonus, he claimed Moglen is a communist and attacked GPLv3. Looks likeAug 18 14:25
schestowitzMicrosoft is really desperate. Aug 18 14:25
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20100813112425821&title=Linux+Weekly+News+has+some+coverage%3A+Florian+Mueller&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=869177#c869240Aug 18 14:25
TechrightsBotTitle: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 15.72 KBAug 18 14:25
oiaohmAll the java patent grants are starting to turn up.Aug 18 14:25
oiaohmBy the end of the Orcale vs Google everyone will know where it truly stands.Aug 18 14:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] About 6% of visitors access TechCrunch with Linux/Android http://techcrunch.com/2010/08/17/ipad-browsing-share/Aug 18 14:34
TechrightsBotTitle:   iPad Surges Past Linux In Browsing Traffic To TechCrunch; Closing In On iPhone  .::. Size~: 87.04 KBAug 18 14:34
schestowitzoiaohm: when does a trial start?Aug 18 14:38
schestowitzOr what's the legal procedure?Aug 18 14:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows in the cloud: long boot times, other difficulties not seen with Linux http://ur1.ca/168to Windows -- not #linux -- plays catchupAug 18 14:38
TechrightsBotTitle: Windows in the cloud: long boot times, other difficulties not seen with Linux  | NetworkWorld.com Community .::. Size~: 74.44 KBAug 18 14:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] @fosspatents 2x strawman. Read what we tweet. Don't refute what we didn't claim.Aug 18 14:39
schestowitzhttp://www.i4u.com/37174/35-linux-tablet-unveiled-indiaAug 18 14:40
TechrightsBotTitle: $35 Linux Tablet unveiled in India - I4U News .::. Size~: 31.14 KBAug 18 14:40
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @ffii In many people's eye he has little credibility left http://ur1.ca/168vdAug 18 14:42
TechrightsBotTitle: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 19.47 KBAug 18 14:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[mgeist] Is relying on openly accessible materials a "shockingly arbitrary and irresponsible policy"? My response: http://bit.ly/bdjHACAug 18 14:50
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] Posted 2 comments below ITWorld article on Open Invention Network in light of #Oracle vs. #Google http://bit.ly/9O71Ce #patent #linuxAug 18 07:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Lawsuit Raises Questions about Open Invention Network, Linux Foundation | ITworld .::. Size~: 85.98 KBAug 18 07:02
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gnufreexschestowitz: This page http://en.swpat.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29#What_does_this_mean_for_Mono_and_C.23Aug 18 07:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Oracle v. Google (2010, USA) - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) .::. Size~: 95.65 KBAug 18 07:04
gnufreexCreates lots of FUDAug 18 07:04
gnufreexgnufreex: some de Icaza mole put it on swpat...Aug 18 07:05
gnufreexIt all liesAug 18 07:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Las Vegas Review-Journal Thinks Suing Sites Over Copyright Will Mean More People Link To It http://dlvr.it/3xx7hAug 18 07:06
TechrightsBotTitle: Las Vegas Review-Journal Thinks Suing Sites Over Copyright Will Mean More People Link To It | Techdirt .::. Size~: 23.09 KBAug 18 07:06
schestowitzgnufreex: ohAug 18 07:07
schestowitzThe wiki was edited by outsiders?Aug 18 07:07
schestowitzI though it was just ciaranAug 18 07:07
schestowitz*thoughtAug 18 07:07
gnufreexI don't know, I am not member of swpatsAug 18 07:07
gnufreexbut it is all lies. From de IcazaAug 18 07:07
schestowitzhttp://en.swpat.org/wiki?title=Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29&action=historyAug 18 07:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Revision history of "Oracle v. Google (2010, USA)" - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) .::. Size~: 79.85 KBAug 18 07:08
schestowitzgnufreex: see if you can find where that part came from...Aug 18 07:08
schestowitzI don't know how to search editsAug 18 07:08
schestowitzYou can do half-way searched to find when it started to appearAug 18 07:08
schestowitz*searchesAug 18 07:09
gnufreexI tried to point it on #fsfAug 18 07:09
schestowitzLike go mid-way, see if it's thereAug 18 07:09
gnufreexBecause it slanders GPL patent grantAug 18 07:09
schestowitzthen slice quarterAug 18 07:09
schestowitzgnufreex: see who put it thereAug 18 07:09
gnufreexOne dude told me to mail swpatsAug 18 07:09
schestowitzAnd tell ciaranAug 18 07:09
schestowitzswpats.org is funded by the FSFAug 18 07:09
schestowitzFSF denounced MonoAug 18 07:09
gnufreexI knowAug 18 07:09
gnufreexswpat has support of FSFAug 18 07:10
gnufreexAnd swpat is recomending MonoAug 18 07:10
MinceRtime for FSF to offer them a choiceAug 18 07:10
schestowitzhttp://en.swpat.org/wiki?title=Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29&diff=17530&oldid=17529Aug 18 07:10
TechrightsBotTitle: Oracle v. Google (2010, USA) - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) .::. Size~: 87.77 KBAug 18 07:10
schestowitzciaran takes anon editsAug 18 07:10
schestowitzSo any mole can put this junk thereAug 18 07:11
schestowitzhttp://en.swpat.org/wiki?title=Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29&diff=17481&oldid=17476Aug 18 07:12
TechrightsBotTitle: Oracle v. Google (2010, USA) - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) .::. Size~: 86.63 KBAug 18 07:12
gnufreexSo I should just delete it?Aug 18 07:12
schestowitzI'll post in identicaAug 18 07:13
schestowitzFor the !FSF group to seeAug 18 07:13
schestowitzYou'll face opposition from anon/IPsAug 18 07:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #FSF -funded swpats.org seems to be AstroTurfed by Micorosft/Novell/Mono moles, who use the site to promote #mono http://ur1.ca/1696cAug 18 07:13
MinceRcan't swpat just lock the page if it's being vandalized?Aug 18 07:13
TechrightsBotTitle: Oracle v. Google (2010, USA) - software patents wiki (en.swpat.org) .::. Size~: 86.63 KBAug 18 07:13
gnufreexOne dude just mailed me this: http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1752790&cid=33286468Aug 18 07:14
TechrightsBotTitle: Slashdot Comments | Oracle Sues Google For Infringing Java Patents .::. Size~: 38.7 KBAug 18 07:14
gnufreexHe nailed it.Aug 18 07:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Miguel de Icaza FUD is explained here: http://ur1.ca/1697m Remember new #Mono contained MS-PL code from Microsoft staffAug 18 07:17
TechrightsBotTitle: Slashdot Comments | Oracle Sues Google For Infringing Java Patents .::. Size~: 38.92 KBAug 18 07:17
MinceRwhat does m$-PL do about patents?Aug 18 07:17
schestowitzAsk Microsoft Aug 18 07:18
MinceRlolAug 18 07:18
schestowitzIt can change the licenceAug 18 07:18
schestowitzIt also writes the codeAug 18 07:18
MinceRhow so? is it specified as newest version?Aug 18 07:18
oiaohmReally the funny part way MS-PL is written.Aug 18 07:18
schestowitzI had this discussion with Alex Hudson in 2008 in BNAug 18 07:18
oiaohmOnce the patent grant is given it cannot be taken back.Aug 18 07:18
schestowitzBasically, Jose and I explained to him in hundreds of comments how Microsoft can 'pull a GPLvx', where version X changes somethingAug 18 07:19
oiaohmSo yes they could stop the grant at a particular date and only patents listed after that date.Aug 18 07:19
MinceRschestowitz: sounds like the answer is "yes" :>Aug 18 07:19
oiaohmCould be used to attack.Aug 18 07:19
schestowitzI'd rather use licences that the FSF -- not Ballmer -- is a steward ofAug 18 07:19
MinceRoiaohm: icAug 18 07:19
MinceRoiaohm: what do other licenses do about this?Aug 18 07:19
MinceRschestowitz: makes senseAug 18 07:19
oiaohmGPLv3 patent grant is basically forever no break out clause.Aug 18 07:20
oiaohmSame with appaches licences covering patents.Aug 18 07:20
oiaohmGPLv2 is too old for patents.Aug 18 07:20
oiaohmReason why anyone thinking about forking the Linux kernel has to be really careful.Aug 18 07:21
gnufreexGPLv2 is remarkably good for its ageAug 18 07:21
oiaohmTechically if you are not hosted at kernel.org with your source code.  Companies like IBM and VMware could rip you to bits with patents.Aug 18 07:21
gnufreexwrt patents, of courseAug 18 07:21
gnufreexNoAug 18 07:22
oiaohmYes gnufreexAug 18 07:22
gnufreexHows that.Aug 18 07:22
gnufreex?Aug 18 07:22
oiaohmIBM and VMware have given grants for Linux the main project to use particular ones of there patents.Aug 18 07:22
oiaohmMost distributions down stream have not bothered having the grants to them.Aug 18 07:23
gnufreexThen those grants are GPL-incomaptibleAug 18 07:23
oiaohmNo they are not incompatible with GPLv2Aug 18 07:23
oiaohmYes if the Linux kernel was GPLv3 they would be incompadible.  gnufreexAug 18 07:24
*FurnaceBoy (~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 07:25
gnufreexI think it is incomatible with GPLv2 too, just Linux has no centralised copyrights so you can't get contributors to do anything about itAug 18 07:25
MinceRthey could get contributors to do something about itAug 18 07:25
gnufreexAll of them?Aug 18 07:25
FurnaceBoyhehAug 18 07:26
gnufreexOne that work at IBM?Aug 18 07:26
MinceRthey have to be listed so that the copyright holders are knownAug 18 07:26
oiaohmThe grant is allowed usage in source.Aug 18 07:26
FurnaceBoyMinceR: many are dead, even.Aug 18 07:26
MinceRtherefore it is known who they areAug 18 07:26
oiaohmPatent grants wordings are key.Aug 18 07:26
MinceRfor every one of them, they should ask permission. if permission is given for particular parts, take note of it.Aug 18 07:26
FurnaceBoyheheAug 18 07:26
MinceRif not, take note that those parts need to be reimplemented.Aug 18 07:26
FurnaceBoythis is usually regarded as infeasible. especially re: the dead ones.Aug 18 07:26
oiaohmLike Ubuntu is safe under the Linux kernel grant write.Aug 18 07:26
MinceRFurnaceBoy: then the code of dead people needs to be rewritten.Aug 18 07:27
oiaohmBecause the patches and altered version of there kernel source is uploaded to kernel.orgAug 18 07:27
MinceRFurnaceBoy: can copyright be inherited?Aug 18 07:27
gnufreexDo you have the wording of that vmware/IBM patent grant?Aug 18 07:27
oiaohmIe if you upstream you are safe under the vmware and IBM patent grant.Aug 18 07:27
oiaohmIf you think of forking off you are dead.Aug 18 07:27
MinceRandroid has forked, have they not? :>Aug 18 07:27
gnufreexThat is definetely incompatible.Aug 18 07:27
oiaohmNot really.Aug 18 07:28
oiaohmIt only applies in countries patents apply.  gnufreexAug 18 07:28
gnufreexThat is somethng that CDDL has. That is why nobody cared about OpenSolarisAug 18 07:28
gnufreexGPL is not like that.Aug 18 07:28
MinceRdoesn't Linux include code from IBM? perhaps even VMware?Aug 18 07:28
gnufreexYes. Aug 18 07:28
MinceRdoesn't that mean that they have to license the patents anyway?Aug 18 07:28
gnufreexVMware drivers are in Linux, and posibly many more.Aug 18 07:29
oiaohmYep Linux techs from both IBM and VMware that IBM and VMware don't want MS or anyelse like them to steal.Aug 18 07:29
gnufreexThey have to license their code and patents that that code touchesAug 18 07:29
gnufreexThat is difference beetwen v2 and v3Aug 18 07:29
oiaohmProblem here with GPLv2 is you have to grant copyright access.Aug 18 07:29
oiaohmYou don't have to grant patent access.Aug 18 07:30
gnufreexv3, you have to license all patents, including future ones you don't have yetAug 18 07:30
oiaohmIBM holds the Linux kernel RCU patent.Aug 18 07:30
gnufreexIn fact, not license, just waive right to sue.Aug 18 07:30
oiaohmBasically without it Linux is a paper weight.Aug 18 07:30
MinceRwhat's RCU?Aug 18 07:30
MinceRsomething that's intangible can hardly be used as a paperweight. :>Aug 18 07:31
oiaohmRead Copy UpdateAug 18 07:31
oiaohmIts a method you use when running thread side by side sharing data.  MinceRAug 18 07:31
oiaohmYes its used in many places it gives major peformance boosts.Aug 18 07:32
Diablo-D3MinceR: think forks.Aug 18 07:32
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read-copy-update  Full write up.  MinceRAug 18 07:33
TechrightsBotTitle: Read-copy-update - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 45.81 KBAug 18 07:33
MinceRlooked at it alreadyAug 18 07:33
MinceRbut thanks anywayAug 18 07:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] ♺ @kleinkaefer: “So, mein WLAN heißt jetzt “Google_Messwagen_23″, bin auf die Reaktion der Nachbarn gespannt.”Aug 18 07:34
gnufreexGPL requires copyright license and patent license for your code. It also has imlicit grant for redistributors, if you redistribute, you should agree not to sure.Aug 18 07:35
oiaohmvmware allowed memory compaction ie KSM.Aug 18 07:35
gnufreexThat's v2Aug 18 07:35
Diablo-D3gnufreex: wait, rewindAug 18 07:35
Diablo-D3v3 has the patent languageAug 18 07:35
Diablo-D3v2 doesntAug 18 07:35
gnufreexv3 requires to waive all rigt to sue over patents.Aug 18 07:35
MinceRv2 also has patent languageAug 18 07:35
MinceRbut it's differentAug 18 07:35
Diablo-D3v2 has nearly useless patent languageAug 18 07:35
Diablo-D3the modern thinking is v2 has no patent languageAug 18 07:35
MinceRwhich is patent language neverthelessAug 18 07:35
MinceRthat's not modern thinking, that's a lieAug 18 07:36
oiaohmNote the word redistributorsAug 18 07:36
Diablo-D3when someone says patent language, they mean the kind thats in v3Aug 18 07:36
gnufreexv2 has some patent requirements and some implications. V3 has all explicitAug 18 07:36
oiaohmIts useless gnufreexAug 18 07:36
Diablo-D3cddl also has patent languageAug 18 07:36
MinceRdo they?Aug 18 07:36
Diablo-D3as does asl 2.0 iircAug 18 07:36
gnufreexASL 2.0 is weakAug 18 07:36
oiaohmgnufreex: the flaw is redistributors it says nothing about being allowed to build binaries that use the code.  gnufreexAug 18 07:36
Diablo-D3MinceR: when someone says patent languages, its a code word for "fuck swpats and any fucker who uses them"Aug 18 07:36
oiaohmBasically gplv2 has a major typo.  Aug 18 07:36
MinceRto you maybeAug 18 07:36
gnufreexASL expects that everyone has patentsAug 18 07:37
Diablo-D3ASL 2.0 is a strange BSD-alike imoAug 18 07:37
gnufreexIf you don't have patents, and you get sue, you are hosedAug 18 07:37
gnufreexlike google nowAug 18 07:37
MinceRto someone else "X license has no patent language" means that they aren't affected regarding patents by the licenseAug 18 07:37
oiaohmIe you can have the source code of Linux but due to patents not able to build binaries and run them with GPLv2 gnufreexAug 18 07:37
Diablo-D3MinceR: v2 cant bomb swpatsAug 18 07:37
MinceRall licenses either have patent language or notAug 18 07:37
Diablo-D3v3 canAug 18 07:37
MinceRDiablo-D3: it might still have an effect in some casesAug 18 07:37
MinceRprobably does tooAug 18 07:37
Diablo-D3MinceR: its extremely limitedAug 18 07:37
MinceRi knowAug 18 07:38
Diablo-D3v3 has the new patent language just because v2 sucks so badAug 18 07:38
MinceRlimited doesn't mean nonexistentAug 18 07:38
gnufreexoiaohm: That is true for any license because patents are crapAug 18 07:38
MinceRv3 has the new patent language because m$'s army of lawyers have found a loopholeAug 18 07:38
Diablo-D3microsoft is useful for something.Aug 18 07:38
oiaohmNot true with GPLv3 gnufreexAug 18 07:38
Diablo-D3surprise surprise.Aug 18 07:38
MinceRand yes, patents are crap, no matter what you put in licensesAug 18 07:38
Diablo-D3I agreeAug 18 07:38
Diablo-D3CDDL has interesting patent language thoughAug 18 07:38
gnufreexoiaohm: True for GPLv3 too, if patent holder never touched the codeAug 18 07:39
oiaohmThe patent text in GPLv3 requires if you grant distributation you must also grant building and using.Aug 18 07:39
Diablo-D3"you sue me, and I revoke all your rights to any patents I own, no matter what previous agreements say"Aug 18 07:39
Diablo-D3its a swpat nukeAug 18 07:39
oiaohmTechically no.  Diablo-D3Aug 18 07:39
oiaohmIf you revoke an agreement without a get out clause you are now in breach of contract.Aug 18 07:40
Diablo-D3no one wants to fire it off because it ends people.Aug 18 07:40
oiaohmSo you are now nuked.Aug 18 07:40
Diablo-D3oiaohm: yes, but the CDDL apparently amends such agreementsAug 18 07:40
gnufreexoiaohm: No, GPLv2 patent clause has nothing with building and usingAug 18 07:40
Diablo-D3and yeah, GPLv3 has the "fuck you" clauseAug 18 07:40
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: 'contract' ?Aug 18 07:41
Diablo-D3CDDL has the "fuck you, and your family, and your dog" clauseAug 18 07:41
oiaohmCopyleft is a contract.  FurnaceBoyAug 18 07:41
Diablo-D3what we need is some implicit super-patent poolAug 18 07:41
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: not as far as I know.Aug 18 07:41
oiaohmIt is a contract.  FurnaceBoyAug 18 07:41
Diablo-D3"If you sue me, you cant use any patent by anyone who has ever released software under this license"Aug 18 07:41
Diablo-D3thats what we needAug 18 07:42
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: I believe it is a license.Aug 18 07:42
oiaohmWithout it you legally don't have the right to use the program.Aug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3oiaohm: its a licenseAug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3not a contractAug 18 07:42
FurnaceBoy^^Aug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3microsoft licenses (ie, eulas) are contracts.Aug 18 07:42
gnufreex"If you sue me, you cant use any patent by anyone who has ever released software under this license"Aug 18 07:42
gnufreexThat is ASLAug 18 07:42
gnufreexSection 3Aug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3gnufreex: wait, ASL 2.0 is that strong?Aug 18 07:42
MinceR164159 < Diablo-D3> "If you sue me, you cant use any patent by anyone who has ever released software under this license"Aug 18 07:42
oiaohmAll software licences are techically contracts.Aug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3oiaohm: wrong.Aug 18 07:42
MinceRi'm not sure if that's legally possibleAug 18 07:42
*Judas_PhD has quit (Quit: Aaarrrggghhh!!!)Aug 18 07:42
gnufreexThat is not strong. I tell you whyAug 18 07:42
Diablo-D3MinceR: it can be if you agree to using the license in the first place.Aug 18 07:43
gnufreexBecause it requires that you have a patent to strike backAug 18 07:43
gnufreexASL gives patent licenseAug 18 07:43
gnufreexIf you sue someone Aug 18 07:43
gnufreexIt takes it backAug 18 07:43
oiaohmNow there are well written and poorly written contracts.Aug 18 07:43
gnufreexBut that someone you sued has no god from thatAug 18 07:43
Diablo-D3gnufreex: yes, but we need to take back every patent thats ever been used in an ASL programAug 18 07:43
gnufreexIf he actualy has no patentAug 18 07:43
Diablo-D3which ASL doesnt do.Aug 18 07:43
Diablo-D3we need an implicit patent pool building licenseAug 18 07:44
oiaohmcopyleft is an effective part of contract law.   You don't have the right to use something so you have to agree to something to use it.Aug 18 07:44
Diablo-D3you sue any member of the Free Software Patent Pool (tm), and we all rape youAug 18 07:44
oiaohmFailure to  agree to the copyleft you are up on copyright infrigment.Aug 18 07:44
gnufreexDiablo-D3: Look examle:Aug 18 07:44
gnufreexOracle sued GoogleAug 18 07:44
gnufreexOracle lost patent license for DalvikAug 18 07:45
gnufreexBut they can still use Dalvik, because Google has no patentsAug 18 07:45
gnufreexTo sue themAug 18 07:45
oiaohmReally Dalvik there is no grant for it.Aug 18 07:45
oiaohmYou have the openjdk grant were you can make custom.Aug 18 07:45
Diablo-D3gnufreex: there were no Dalvik patents held by Google to begin withAug 18 07:45
oiaohmbut you code must be GPL.Aug 18 07:45
gnufreex<Diablo-D3 exactlyAug 18 07:46
oiaohmThen you have the java spec grant.   Where you must implement the full spec.Aug 18 07:46
Diablo-D3gnufreex: the large problem is does any of Oracle's patents actually apply to Dalvik, and are the patents actually validAug 18 07:46
oiaohmWithotu a licence lock.Aug 18 07:46
gnufreexSo ASL patent retaliation clause is uselessAug 18 07:46
oiaohmProblem is where andorid java is.Aug 18 07:46
Diablo-D3gnufreex: Google probably can run this through a court and winAug 18 07:46
oiaohmis covered by neither grant.Aug 18 07:46
Diablo-D3gnufreex: I think you misunderstood what _I_ wanted thoughAug 18 07:46
Diablo-D3I want a patent retaliation clause that is so strong that it revokes OTHER peoples patent agreementsAug 18 07:46
oiaohmI don't see how Diablo-D3Aug 18 07:46
oiaohmAlso turns out appache is safeAug 18 07:47
Diablo-D3Lets say I have patents, and you have patents, and we both release our patent using software under the GNU Fuck You LicenseAug 18 07:47
gnufreexDiablo-D3: Nobody will agree to such license.Aug 18 07:47
oiaohmthere implementation falls inside the spec grant.Aug 18 07:47
oiaohmBasicaly google is the odd guy out.Aug 18 07:47
Diablo-D3the GFUL states that if you sue someone who has released patents under the GFUL, you lose the right to ANY patents released under the GFULAug 18 07:47
Diablo-D3thus, the ultimate retaliation.Aug 18 07:48
oiaohmIncluding your own.  Diablo-D3Aug 18 07:48
Diablo-D3so, lets say IBM decides to play ballAug 18 07:48
gnufreexDiablo-D3: That will end up unenforcableAug 18 07:48
Diablo-D3gnufreex: not at allAug 18 07:48
Diablo-D3patent pools are common.Aug 18 07:48
oiaohmAnd that clause is tested in patent pools as well gnufreexAug 18 07:49
gnufreexDiablo-D3: What you describing is DPLAug 18 07:49
Diablo-D3DPL? never heard of itAug 18 07:49
gnufreexDiablo-D3: That is new patent pool like OIN, just more GPL-ishAug 18 07:49
Diablo-D3huh, interestingAug 18 07:50
Diablo-D3seems someone beat me to the punchAug 18 07:50
gnufreexDiablo-D3: And it includes idea that Fair Trolls should sue propriatary companies.Aug 18 07:50
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gnufreexDiablo-D3: And make them opensource thingsAug 18 07:50
Diablo-D3RMS must be hitting that like the fist of the north star, thenAug 18 07:50
gnufreexDiablo-D3: It is developed by some patent law experts on berkleyAug 18 07:51
gnufreexDiablo-D3: It is just idea for now.Aug 18 07:51
oiaohmDPL could risk triggering MAD.Aug 18 07:53
gnufreexI think MAD is inevitableAug 18 07:53
Diablo-D3except in this caseAug 18 07:54
Diablo-D3swpats are declared illegal and the balance with the US Constitution is restoredAug 18 07:54
schestowitzThere's MAD in mobile alreadyAug 18 07:54
MinceRMAD Tank Deployed.Aug 18 07:54
schestowitzMAD MagAug 18 07:54
gnufreexYeah, Roy is right. Nokia, Apple, HTC....Aug 18 07:54
Diablo-D3woahAug 18 07:55
Diablo-D3someone saidAug 18 07:55
schestowitzMany moreAug 18 07:55
Diablo-D3Roy is rightAug 18 07:55
schestowitzIt's like a mazeAug 18 07:55
*Diablo-D3 dives into the bomb shelterAug 18 07:55
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gnufreexMicrosoft goes sneaky and license fogAug 18 07:55
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzAug 18 07:56
oiaohmHeck Orcales little move against google could set off a chain.Aug 18 07:57
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to amarsh04 MinceR tessier_Aug 18 07:57
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzAug 18 07:58
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gnufreexI think Google should buy a troll and sue right awayAug 18 07:58
gnufreexThen make a case against Software PatsAug 18 07:58
oiaohmReally Orcale is the best place todo that gnufreexAug 18 07:58
schestowitzWon't happenAug 18 07:59
oiaohmThey have the collection of some of the most odd ball patents ever approved.Aug 18 07:59
oiaohmAnd a lot of them are hardware patents.Aug 18 07:59
schestowitzThey are not managed by geeksAug 18 07:59
MinceRIBM has a lot of stupid patents too, don't they?Aug 18 07:59
schestowitzIBM *is*s tupidAug 18 07:59
MinceRsuch as the patent on patent trollingAug 18 07:59
oiaohmYep IBM and SUN use to have a competention.Aug 18 07:59
gnufreexoiaohm: Yeah, but Oracle has truckload of software, there is a lot to sue.Aug 18 07:59
oiaohmWho could get the most stupid patent threw the system.Aug 18 08:00
schestowitzIBM's engineers are not stupidAug 18 08:00
oiaohmSo they have tones of stupid but valid patents.Aug 18 08:00
MinceRtheir management is, thoughAug 18 08:00
gnufreexYou get some old patent from a troll, and odds are that at leaast 3 Oralce products are infringing it Aug 18 08:00
schestowitzBureaucracy ruins technology companiesAug 18 08:00
oiaohmgnufreex: Do you have any devices with remote power on switches.  gnufreexAug 18 08:01
schestowitzMeeks (UK) got a software patent or more than oneAug 18 08:01
oiaohmIf so you owe OrcaleAug 18 08:01
MinceRno, the companies that sold them doAug 18 08:01
schestowitzFOSS devs who are in an anti-swpats jurisdiction get swpats if their employer commands themAug 18 08:01
MinceRand they might be better off that wayAug 18 08:02
gnufreexoiaohm: They can't do anything against googleAug 18 08:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @samwhitmore: Larry Ellison calls Fortune's Philip Elmer-DeWitt a "scum bag" http://bit.ly/d5Tt5t Me: Oh that Larry!Aug 18 08:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Larry Ellison Goes Postal On Fortune Writer .::. Size~: 159.07 KBAug 18 08:02
oiaohmDo google use network control of there servers.  gnufreexAug 18 08:02
schestowitzhttp://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Ubuntu-11-04-a-k-a-Natty-Narwhal-2.jpg/Aug 18 08:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Ubuntu 11.04 a.k.a. Natty Narwhal - picture 1 detail - Softpedia .::. Size~: 6 KBAug 18 08:02
schestowitzIs Ubuntu sinking?Aug 18 08:02
oiaohmAlso another old SUN patent.  gnufreexAug 18 08:02
oiaohmOrcale is insanely well armed.  gnufreexAug 18 08:03
gnufreexYeah, but someone must atack them, or we are screwedAug 18 08:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] @ffii If you want to get into details of what I wrote on Slashdot, let's have the discussion in a forum of that kind and not spam Twitter.Aug 18 08:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @samwhitmore: Larry Ellison calls Fortune's Philip Elmer-DeWitt a "scum bag" http://bit.ly/d5Tt5t Me: Oh that Larry! #thelarry #scoracleAug 18 08:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Larry Ellison Goes Postal On Fortune Writer .::. Size~: 159.05 KBAug 18 08:04
oiaohmReally no gnufreexAug 18 08:04
oiaohmFirst thing we need todo is find out exactly why they are upset.Aug 18 08:05
oiaohmIf it turns out to be simple.   Ie Google creating a java not inside any patent grant.Aug 18 08:05
MinceRbecause LawSuit Larry is an asshole?Aug 18 08:05
oiaohmThey most likely are not going to remain agreessive after they are done with Google.Aug 18 08:05
gnufreexThat is what I was saying. oiaohm Aug 18 08:05
MinceRyeah, rightAug 18 08:06
gnufreexBeforeAug 18 08:06
schestowitzEllison "Adelyn Lee went to jail for a year for falsely accusing me of sexual harassment.  Why did you leave that out of your story you scum bag?  Let me guess … your job is telling half-truths.  Fortune Magazine must be very proud of you."Aug 18 08:06
schestowitzWowAug 18 08:06
MinceRif they defeat google, they'll keep suing whomever they canAug 18 08:06
Diablo-D3lawsuit larryAug 18 08:06
*Diablo-D3 snickersAug 18 08:06
MinceRor they'll at least start threatening othersAug 18 08:06
oiaohmDepends Aug 18 08:06
oiaohmIf the issue is resolved Orcale will have nothing to threaten anyone with.Aug 18 08:06
MinceRif oracle loses, that isAug 18 08:06
oiaohmNo if orcale wins.Aug 18 08:07
gnufreexMinceR: HardlyAug 18 08:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] 'Dropbox Pro Review http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file/fid,156276-order,4/description.html Me: More & more of my friends are using this.Aug 18 08:07
gnufreexThey bought BEAAug 18 08:07
TechrightsBotTitle: Dropbox Pro | Backup Download | PCWorld .::. Size~: 65.76 KBAug 18 08:07
MinceRor they change their mind and license their patents correctlyAug 18 08:07
gnufreexThey had patentsAug 18 08:07
oiaohmAnd lets say google extends androids implemention to be inside the spec patent grant.  MinceRAug 18 08:07
gnufreexSun also had more patentsAug 18 08:07
oiaohmOrcale has no more grounds to attack.  Aug 18 08:07
gnufreexThis is not all Java patentsAug 18 08:07
gnufreexIf Oracle loses this, they will just add more patents and try againAug 18 08:08
MinceRoiaohm: then SCOracle will still have something to threaten people withAug 18 08:08
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @mjasay: Number 1 change in OSS over the last decade: the move from mostly volunteer devs to corp participation" http://bit.ly/cP00lPAug 18 08:08
TechrightsBotTitle:    How corporate America went open-source - Fortune Tech .::. Size~: 56.33 KBAug 18 08:08
MinceRoiaohm: anyone who dares to modify java in a way that diverges from official specs will be suedAug 18 08:08
gnufreexThey don't want to show all patents at firstAug 18 08:08
MinceR=> non-freeAug 18 08:08
oiaohmReally not MinceRAug 18 08:08
oiaohmLot more java project will start off based on openjdkAug 18 08:08
oiaohmThat don't have the limitation of the spec grant.  MinceRAug 18 08:09
MinceRmeaning less freedom for developersAug 18 08:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Check out the stunning new improvements in the Ubuntu Loco Directory - http://loco.ubuntu.com/ - create work, LD devs! #locoteamsAug 18 08:09
TechrightsBotTitle: Ubuntu LoCo Team Directory .::. Size~: 8.18 KBAug 18 08:09
MinceRbecause OrcAle are being assholes.Aug 18 08:09
oiaohmThere is still another way to win.Aug 18 08:09
oiaohmA new patent grant.  MinceRAug 18 08:09
oiaohmMore open.Aug 18 08:09
MinceRyes, if oracle can be convinced to do soAug 18 08:10
oiaohmReally google should have attempted to get that first.Aug 18 08:10
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] iPad at Work: The Essential Guide for Business Users http://is.gd/enmOI Me: nice look at the basics.Aug 18 08:10
TechrightsBotTitle: iPad at Work: The Essential Guide for Business Users | ZDNet  .::. Size~: 131.45 KBAug 18 08:10
MinceRthey can be convinced to make java free, but i think that's unlikely to happenAug 18 08:10
MinceRtheir conduct so far suggests otherwise.Aug 18 08:10
gnufreexIf Oracle thinks good for Java, they will move it to GPLv3Aug 18 08:10
MinceRoracle doesn't care what's good for javaAug 18 08:10
MinceRif they did, they wouldn't be suing over itAug 18 08:10
oiaohmThe stupid part was when sun released java specs java developers requested the spec clause be tighted.Aug 18 08:10
gnufreexThat still meanst they can sue Google for DalvikAug 18 08:10
MinceRit's already causing java a lot of damageAug 18 08:11
oiaohmTo prevent java from splintering.Aug 18 08:11
gnufreexBecause ASL. Aug 18 08:11
MinceRoiaohm: those developers are stupidAug 18 08:11
oiaohmIt was a sane idea at the time.Aug 18 08:11
MinceRhardlyAug 18 08:11
MinceRthere was only one case of java splintering being bad, everAug 18 08:11
MinceRwhen m$ did it to attack javaAug 18 08:11
oiaohmHave you seen how many different versions of basic there are.Aug 18 08:11
oiaohmYep.Aug 18 08:12
MinceRyes, and some of them suck somewhat less than the "original" versions of bsaicAug 18 08:12
oiaohmThe clause exists to prevent M$ style things from happening.Aug 18 08:12
MinceRof course, basic is still a crappy toy, not a programming languageAug 18 08:12
oiaohmto java again.Aug 18 08:12
MinceRoiaohm: it also makes java nonfreeAug 18 08:12
oiaohmProblem is what google did with android is close to that.Aug 18 08:12
MinceReven if google did that, there's no reason to attack them for itAug 18 08:12
schestowitzMinceR: some people still advocate itAug 18 08:13
MinceRdo you think that google is trying to kill java?Aug 18 08:13
schestowitzLike some Belgian/Dutch guy who trolls COLAAug 18 08:13
MinceRschestowitz: some people even advocate monoAug 18 08:13
schestowitzSome people advocate and use Paint.exeAug 18 08:13
MinceR:>Aug 18 08:13
schestowitzOne colleague of mind did... I didn't know whether to laugh or cryAug 18 08:13
schestowitzTo make figures for academic papersAug 18 08:13
oiaohmBy what google did harmed the cross platform nature of Java MinceRAug 18 08:13
MinceRschestowitz: lolAug 18 08:13
MinceRoiaohm: by what oracle did harmed the credibility of javaAug 18 08:14
oiaohmVery much in the same way MS Java was.Aug 18 08:14
schestowitz[16:22] <MinceR> schestowitz: some people even advocate monoAug 18 08:14
schestowitzWe need more apes aroundAug 18 08:14
MinceRnot reallyAug 18 08:14
oiaohmYes really.Aug 18 08:14
schestowitzThey're fun to be aroundAug 18 08:14
MinceRwe already have several billions of apes on this dirty iron ballAug 18 08:14
oiaohmDo android applications run on other platforms.  MinceRAug 18 08:14
oiaohmAnswer no.Aug 18 08:14
schestowitzSuddenly you feel smarter :-)Aug 18 08:14
MinceRoiaohm: not sureAug 18 08:14
schestowitzSurrounded by primitive primatesAug 18 08:14
MinceRschestowitz: unfortunately, that's not the only effect.Aug 18 08:15
oiaohmThe answer is no at this stage.  MinceRAug 18 08:15
schestowitzJust kill the baboonsAug 18 08:15
schestowitzThey run companies like the VOle anywayAug 18 08:15
MinceRi did run the android sdk :>Aug 18 08:15
oiaohmgoogle has not released any runtime to allow android applications to run on other platforms native.Aug 18 08:15
oiaohmsdk is emulator solution.Aug 18 08:15
MinceRit doesn't have to be google who does itAug 18 08:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[mgeist] US Federal Trade Commish shuts down Canadian-based domain name registration scam. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2010/08/ils.shtmAug 18 08:16
TechrightsBotTitle: FTC Halts Cross Border Domain Name Registration Scam .::. Size~: 15.71 KBAug 18 08:16
oiaohmReally android uses a lot of features in there app that are unique to that OS.Aug 18 08:16
oiaohmSome starting right at kernel level MinceRAug 18 08:16
gnufreexoiaohm: I think you're right. I was telling the similar line yesterday. If google used OpenJDK, all would be fine.Aug 18 08:16
MinceRoiaohm: do competing bytecode-based VMs also harm java?Aug 18 08:16
MinceRif so, expect SCOracle to sue all of themAug 18 08:16
MinceRnot only monoAug 18 08:16
MinceRif not, what's the harm?Aug 18 08:16
oiaohmI don't see competing bytecode base VM has harmful.Aug 18 08:17
MinceRthe only issue i can think of is trademark, which is entirely different -- and android isn't marketed with the java brand, afaictAug 18 08:17
MinceRm$ java was marketed as javaAug 18 08:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] RT @Ohrenporno Oma zum Nazi: "Ach Sie Armer! Erst die Chemo und jetzt auch noch orthopädische Schuhe!"Aug 18 08:17
gnufreexMincer: Yes, if they are incompatible on purpose. Like Mono or DalvikAug 18 08:17
oiaohmBut ABI and API incompadabilties can be a major annoyance.Aug 18 08:17
schestowitzAndroid is marleted as pedobotAug 18 08:17
MinceRoiaohm: so if they're a little bit compatible with java, that's worse?Aug 18 08:17
schestowitzThey don't talk about LinuxAug 18 08:17
MinceRoiaohm: if i develop a competing platform, release it, and then slowly start preparing it for java compatibility, am i attacking java?Aug 18 08:18
schestowitzChrome OS implies Google makes the whole OS because of the Web browser, which also reuses componentsAug 18 08:18
oiaohmDo you know how close google was to passing for a valid implementation  MinceRAug 18 08:18
MinceRi consider Chrome OS to be yet another fast-boot distroAug 18 08:18
oiaohmIt only missing 1 class group.   MinceRAug 18 08:18
MinceRoiaohm: does it matter?Aug 18 08:19
MinceRoiaohm: was it marketed as a valid implementation?Aug 18 08:19
oiaohmThe class group that allows cross platform drawing of windows.Aug 18 08:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @dkusnetzky: New ZDnet post: RightScale: Windows now 'usable' in cloud: http://bit.ly/aRTPClAug 18 08:19
TechrightsBotTitle: RightScale: Windows now 'usable' in cloud | ZDNet  .::. Size~: 92.7 KBAug 18 08:19
schestowitzMinceR: but googledrones will pick it fo brand and OEM prowessAug 18 08:19
oiaohmBasically just enough to be incompadible.  MinceRAug 18 08:19
oiaohmFrom every other phone with a java vm.Aug 18 08:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] Android Next Mobile Platform for Adaptive Blue's GetGlue App - Semantic Web http://bit.ly/cR59BJAug 18 08:20
TechrightsBotTitle: Android Next Mobile Platform for Adaptive Blue's GetGlue App - Semantic Web .::. Size~: 27.96 KBAug 18 08:20
MinceRwhile it would be nice to use the J2SE way of drawing windows on android, is lack of that really worth a lawsuit? i don't think so.Aug 18 08:20
gnufreex"RightScale has announced that its yearlong effort to offer Windows support is finished. But it was no easy task, execs noted.Aug 18 08:20
gnufreexOn Tuesday, the cloud management platform provider said that it supports Windows 2003 and Windows 2008 on par with Linux. The company’s chief technical officer said Microsoft has a long way to go to make Windows more cloud friendly but the work Rightscale has done makes the performance of the operating platform close to that of Linux."Aug 18 08:20
MinceRwhat will this mean to other java implementors?Aug 18 08:20
gnufreexWHy DID they EVEN BOTHER!!!>?Aug 18 08:20
MinceRwhat if someone wants to use java on a headless embedded device?Aug 18 08:20
MinceRoops, no AWT, no swing, incoming lawsuitAug 18 08:20
oiaohmIf you read the implementations rules headless is fine.Aug 18 08:21
gnufreexMinceR: Use GPL'd Java and you are safe.Aug 18 08:21
oiaohmIf you are displaying a display you have to provide the AWTAug 18 08:21
MinceRwhat if it has a numeric LCD? what if it has a matrix LCD?Aug 18 08:21
gnufreexIt boils down to thatAug 18 08:21
oiaohmgraphical display.Aug 18 08:21
MinceRi'd like to see AWT run on a 7-segment LCDAug 18 08:22
oiaohmTextbased there are interfaces in java for that.Aug 18 08:22
FurnaceBoyno surprise that it's hard to do anything useful infrastructure-wise with a closed, proprietary productAug 18 08:22
oiaohmIe if you don't have AWT there are other requirements still.Aug 18 08:22
FurnaceBoywhat a waste of effort.Aug 18 08:22
oiaohmReally you are allowed to add your own classes todo things.Aug 18 08:23
MinceRgnufreex: why does it have to be GPL-ed java? does that magically not threaten the integrity of java?Aug 18 08:23
oiaohmJust you must provide the standard cross platform classes working.Aug 18 08:23
oiaohmThere are two patent grants MinceRAug 18 08:23
MinceRoiaohm: so is AWT and Swing "standard cross-platform" or is it not?Aug 18 08:23
MinceRi knowAug 18 08:23
MinceRbut i don't see the pointAug 18 08:24
gnufreexMinceR: Becaus Oracle/Sun distributes OpenJDK, just take some of that code and you are clearAug 18 08:24
MinceRi'm not sure if that worksAug 18 08:24
MinceRwasn't there a clause about removing code?Aug 18 08:24
oiaohmThere is a broader grant on the OpenJDK  MinceRAug 18 08:24
MinceRoiaohm: the question is, why is there a broader grant on itAug 18 08:24
gnufreexMinceR: There is no clause about removing code in GPLAug 18 08:24
oiaohmIts intented for those tricky places MinceRAug 18 08:25
gnufreexMinceR: If you use GPL'd Java, GPL is all you care. Aug 18 08:25
oiaohmBecause OpenJDK still has the grant SUN was going to put on the specs.Aug 18 08:25
gnufreexMinceR: Patent grant is for non-GPLAug 18 08:25
MinceRoiaohm: sounds like an oversightAug 18 08:25
oiaohmNoAug 18 08:25
MinceRthat would require a fix, not a lawsuitAug 18 08:25
oiaohmOpenJDK has the requirement that to use its patent grant you must be GPLAug 18 08:26
MinceRyou've said this a couple of times already :>Aug 18 08:26
oiaohmIe you have a chooce.Aug 18 08:27
oiaohmFollow spec to letterAug 18 08:27
oiaohmOr use GPL licence.Aug 18 08:27
oiaohmGoogle choose neither.Aug 18 08:27
oiaohmSo hell has broken lose.Aug 18 08:27
gnufreexoiaohm: ExactlyAug 18 08:27
FurnaceBoyw00tAug 18 08:28
FurnaceBoyTHere is no Dana, only ZuulAug 18 08:28
gnufreexAnd de Icaza is confusing facts by editing swpats wikiAug 18 08:28
oiaohmReally we need the grant rules sorted out for the long term of Java.Aug 18 08:28
oiaohmAnd everyone to be aware of them.Aug 18 08:29
oiaohmThey are not too hard to work inside.Aug 18 08:29
gnufreexoiaohm: We need to fight de Icaza's FUD on swpat.Aug 18 08:29
gnufreexPeople are linking that when they claim that Aug 18 08:30
oiaohmIn my eyes orcale vs google is a minor storm.Aug 18 08:30
gnufreexGPL'd Java is forbiden for mobileAug 18 08:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] Love it or hate it, you can't deny its influence. The Undeniable Influence of SharePoint 2010 by @ron_miller. http://bit.ly/bNSPrkAug 18 08:30
TechrightsBotTitle: The undeniable influence of SharePoint 2010 - FierceContentManagement .::. Size~: 38.5 KBAug 18 08:30
FurnaceBoygnufreex: Asay's 2Aug 18 08:30
oiaohmThat everyone is letting get out of control.Aug 18 08:30
FurnaceBoyI bet Roy is making a list of the FUDstersAug 18 08:30
oiaohmgnufreex: incorrect.Aug 18 08:30
oiaohmGPL Java on moble has been approved in the past.Aug 18 08:31
oiaohmParticularly on N900's.  gnufreexAug 18 08:31
oiaohmIts more devices makers don't want to use GPL.Aug 18 08:31
oiaohmUsing the Linux kernel they are already using GPL and the lower section of stack are closer to what the FCC cares about gnufreexAug 18 08:31
gnufreexoiaohm: Read again what I saidAug 18 08:32
gnufreexWith previous commentAug 18 08:32
*Chips_B_Malroy (~username@nv-76-3-157-174.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 08:32
oiaohmOpps sorry gnufreexAug 18 08:32
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ffii] Michel/Nothhaft "Congress should... give the patent office a $1 billion surge to restore it to proper functioning." http://nyti.ms/a2SjpXAug 18 08:33
gnufreexDe Icaza says that, people linkAug 18 08:33
TechrightsBotTitle: The New York Times > Log In .::. Size~: 9.03 KBAug 18 08:33
oiaohmDe Icaza and others want to build up baseless fear around java.Aug 18 08:33
oiaohmThat is some how a legal risk.Aug 18 08:33
*FurnaceBoy hands out lollypops to oiaohm and gnufreexAug 18 08:33
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: gosh, why would Miguel want to do thatAug 18 08:34
MinceRwhat java edition does n900 use and with what code?Aug 18 08:34
oiaohmAt least with Java you can find patent grants that can cover your ass.Aug 18 08:34
MinceRat least with java you have more than a vague "promise" that hardly covers anything -- regardless of which route you take.Aug 18 08:34
gnufreexoiaohm: Microsoft somewhat succeded to make Java resound badly in minds of n00bsAug 18 08:35
oiaohmn900 you have selection of OS's.  gcj java.  appaches full implementation and openjdk in diffferent versions.Aug 18 08:35
gnufreexoiaohm: Some people even refuse to use Java appsAug 18 08:35
gnufreexoiaohm: Even open office which just have Java starterAug 18 08:35
Chips_B_MalroyHi everyoneAug 18 08:35
MinceRhayAug 18 08:35
gnufreexoiaohm: That is just because of FUD. Aug 18 08:35
oiaohmBasically all the legally save Java'sAug 18 08:35
MinceRit also has a printer configurator written in java, iircAug 18 08:36
oiaohmHang on openoffice runs without java.  gnufreexAug 18 08:36
oiaohmI have done it many a time.Aug 18 08:36
Chips_B_Malroyhttp://www.myce.com/news/microsoft-downgrades-xbox-360-kinect-hardware-to-lower-costs-33064/Aug 18 08:36
TechrightsBotTitle:     Microsoft downgrades Xbox 360 Kinect hardware to lower costs | MyCE  My Consumer Electronics .::. Size~: 40.86 KBAug 18 08:36
oiaohmThe core of openoffice is C++Aug 18 08:36
Chips_B_Malroy"Aug 18 08:36
Chips_B_MalroyIt looks like the initial version of Microsoft?s Kinect motion-sensing add-on for their Xbox 360 console isn?t going to be quite the device everyone had initially anticipated.Aug 18 08:36
Chips_B_MalroyPressured by manufacturing costs that would have them taking a loss on each unit sold, Microsoft has chosen to downgrade Kinect?s hardware in favor of lessened financial risk.Aug 18 08:36
Chips_B_Malroy"Aug 18 08:36
gnufreexoiaohm: I know. It can be done, but default requires JavaAug 18 08:36
oiaohmNo gnufreexAug 18 08:36
gnufreexoiaohm: I know it is C++Aug 18 08:36
MinceRdowngrade kinect even further?Aug 18 08:37
oiaohmgo to the download site and look closely.Aug 18 08:37
oiaohmYou have with and without java option gnufreexAug 18 08:37
Chips_B_Malroy"The original Kinect patent filed by Microsoft suggested that the device would be equipped with a 640×480 camera with the ability to understand American Sign Language.  The final production model replaces a pricey hardware chip with a software solution which, in addition to saving Microsoft money, reduces the performance of the device."Aug 18 08:37
MinceRsounds like players will have to settle for pretending that their motion affects the game :>Aug 18 08:37
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: where does gcj fit into this :)Aug 18 08:37
Chips_B_Malroy"While the lower-resolution 320×240 camera will still recognize the motion of player?s limbs, it is not fine enough to detect finger movements. And if the Kinect won?t detect intricate hand motions, speculated lip-reading capability is definitely not a possibility."Aug 18 08:37
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: you can run e.g. substantial apps like Eclipse via gcjAug 18 08:37
oiaohmAlso my openoffice here is using gcjAug 18 08:38
oiaohmNot sun javaAug 18 08:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] How Oracle sees open source may not be how you see open source http://bit.ly/9QstKI As Ellison said, "we have to exploit open source."Aug 18 08:38
TechrightsBotTitle: How Oracle sees open source may not be how you see open source - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 67.86 KBAug 18 08:38
gnufreexMore crap from SVJNAug 18 08:38
gnufreexHe has notihng smart to say.Aug 18 08:39
FurnaceBoyhe seems to be a syndicator, just trying to drum up traffic/influenceAug 18 08:39
Chips_B_MalroyOialohm>my experiences trying to help a relative with ubuntu, with wine games, was a bad one.  Everything worked with Mepis 8.0 based on Debian upstream.  I read your irc chat on the wine problems with Ubuntu, and I had some of those problems as well, even locking up one system.Aug 18 08:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @richi: gPad rumor redux: Google iPad in Nov 2010. Running Google's 'other' platform: Chrome OS http://richij.com/itbw $GOOG $VZ $VODAug 18 08:40
TechrightsBotTitle: IT Blogwatch's Most Recent Posts - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 89.27 KBAug 18 08:40
FurnaceBoy320x240 camera? that's a bit sillyAug 18 08:41
Chips_B_Malroyit seems that Blockbuster also has a streaming app for android.Aug 18 08:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Apple Pulls Grooveshark From App Store, Because Universal Music Doesn't Like It http://dlvr.it/3y5XvAug 18 08:42
TechrightsBotTitle: Apple Pulls Grooveshark From App Store, Because Universal Music Doesn't Like It | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.71 KBAug 18 08:42
gnufreexoiaohm: What do you think it way out for google?Aug 18 08:42
Chips_B_Malroywell, MS dumbed down the Kinect camera, making it cheaper, without reducing the priceAug 18 08:42
FurnaceBoyhm!Aug 18 08:42
FurnaceBoyyet it's core to the entire offeringAug 18 08:42
FurnaceBoytechnically, appeal..Aug 18 08:42
FurnaceBoyaren't ppl supposed to use the camera in gameAug 18 08:43
FurnaceBoyaccording to their showreelAug 18 08:43
Chips_B_Malroyor is it bait and switch?Aug 18 08:43
MinceReven the original version had horrible delay, afaikAug 18 08:43
MinceRi hope they get burned by thisAug 18 08:43
FurnaceBoy:)Aug 18 08:44
Chips_B_Malroythey patented the sign language  for thisAug 18 08:44
Chips_B_Malroyand then put a camera that would not do itAug 18 08:44
FurnaceBoyi can't see how they can kick any butt with an inferior cameraAug 18 08:44
MinceRthey patented ASL?Aug 18 08:44
FurnaceBoyit's totally central to the systemAug 18 08:44
FurnaceBoyPHAILAug 18 08:44
MinceRwhat camera does Sony's EyeToy use?Aug 18 08:45
MinceRhm, i might be able to look it upAug 18 08:45
MinceR640x480Aug 18 08:45
MinceRm$ has been owned once againAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoyyepAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoybad, bad, bad decisionAug 18 08:46
Chips_B_MalroyMS is up to their old marketing tricks once againAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoyprobably at a high levelAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoywhere stupid grows like mouldAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoyonce again proving their game is never about good technologyAug 18 08:46
FurnaceBoybut about PR and sizzleAug 18 08:47
Chips_B_MalroyWith the slim and Kinect coming out before the Xmas holidays they will get a bounce in sales in the USAAug 18 08:47
FurnaceBoycue another RROD debacleAug 18 08:47
FurnaceBoyoverpromise, underdeliverAug 18 08:47
FurnaceBoytheir hallmarkAug 18 08:47
FurnaceBoyNT, Vista, Zune, ... Kin, Pad, KinectAug 18 08:48
Chips_B_Malroywell, NT was the better of those you listed, and it had problems.  The rest were all downhill on your list.Aug 18 08:49
MinceRwhat makes NT less of a failure than others didn't come from m$Aug 18 08:49
MinceR(VMS design, that is, the parts they didn't rape)Aug 18 08:49
FurnaceBoyChips_B_Malroy: NT overpromised.Aug 18 08:50
FurnaceBoyChips_B_Malroy: regardless of what eventuatedAug 18 08:51
Chips_B_Malroynot to mention what they got from IBM with the dual project of OS/2, which was also the basis of NTAug 18 08:51
FurnaceBoybasis?Aug 18 08:51
FurnaceBoycite?Aug 18 08:51
FurnaceBoyMinceR: NT failed its missionAug 18 08:51
Chips_B_Malroythe first NT was 3.11 not to be confused with windows for workgroups 3.11Aug 18 08:52
gnufreexMinceR: I always chuckle when someone compares VMS and NTAug 18 08:52
FurnaceBoyit was intended to take over the server room... as 'doze did on desktops.Aug 18 08:52
FurnaceBoygnufreex: rightAug 18 08:52
gnufreexNT is is so inferior...Aug 18 08:53
gnufreexIt is funny. Aug 18 08:53
MinceRgnufreex: indeedAug 18 08:53
FurnaceBoygnufreex: they're more different than ppl thinkAug 18 08:53
MinceRbut they actually hired Cutler and still fucked upAug 18 08:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @jwlynch: Ubuntu vs. Red Hat: Who really contributes the most to Linux http://bit.ly/cgeflK #ubuntu #redhat #linuxAug 18 08:53
TechrightsBotTitle:  Ubuntu vs. Red Hat: Who really contributes the most to Linux .::. Size~: 53.41 KBAug 18 08:53
FurnaceBoygnufreex: the similarities are stylisticAug 18 08:53
FurnaceBoyMinceR: exactlyAug 18 08:53
FurnaceBoyMinceR: I assume Cutler's brain was fried by hookers and blow, after defectingAug 18 08:53
MinceR:DAug 18 08:53
Chips_B_MalroyI believe NT (windows 2000) still had files in it from OS/2Aug 18 08:53
MinceRor he wasn't the brains of the operationAug 18 08:53
FurnaceBoyMinceR: that tooAug 18 08:54
gnufreexCutler wanted to fuck up VMS, but Olson didn't let himAug 18 08:54
gnufreexSo he gone to MicrsoftAug 18 08:54
FurnaceBoyMinceR: apparently his technical contributions were relatively minorAug 18 08:54
MinceRFurnaceBoy: do you have an article about this?Aug 18 08:54
MinceRgnufreex: how so?Aug 18 08:54
FurnaceBoyMinceR: there's Neil Rieck's siteAug 18 08:54
FurnaceBoyMinceR: it's a while since i read stuff about itAug 18 08:54
MinceRthxAug 18 08:54
gnufreexMincer: It is a joke.Aug 18 08:54
gnufreexMincer: That is why NT sucks and VMS not. Aug 18 08:55
FurnaceBoyvms was a huge successAug 18 08:55
FurnaceBoytechnically, tooAug 18 08:55
MinceRi'm making a note herAug 18 08:55
MinceReAug 18 08:55
Chips_B_MalroyMS stole from IBM very heavy in the early daysAug 18 08:55
*oiaohm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Aug 18 08:55
Chips_B_Malroyamong othersAug 18 08:55
Chips_B_Malroylater, have to run, was hoping Roy might could use the Kinect downgrade article.Aug 18 08:56
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FurnaceBoyroy: ohaiAug 18 08:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I'm at Hendon Central Underground Station (Queens Road, London). http://4sq.com/9iuGY3Aug 18 09:02
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MinceRhttp://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7cuua8ngf1qa3xt1o1_500.jpgAug 18 09:06
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @MitchWagner: Email's too old-school for the class of 2014 http://ow.ly/2rn8D I liked writing thisAug 18 09:08
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] Look back at #LinuxCon: @TheTechScribe reports on Jon Corbet's Kernel Report: http://bit.ly/aHZeRfAug 18 09:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Email's too old-school for the class of 2014 - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 64.62 KBAug 18 09:08
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Q. What do you get if you cross acupuncture with Scientology? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Emotional_Freedom_TechniqueAug 18 09:21
TechrightsBotTitle: Emotional Freedom Technique - RationalWiki .::. Size~: 18.68 KBAug 18 09:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Going over to @_Goblin , back on Web later this weekAug 18 09:24
*_Goblin (~goblin@178.102.147.166) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 09:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Negotiators confirm ACTA not really a "counterfeiting" treaty - http://bit.ly/bGRwCT no, really? #actaAug 18 09:30
TechrightsBotTitle: Negotiators confirm ACTA not really a "counterfeiting" treaty .::. Size~: 27.18 KBAug 18 09:30
_Goblinhi all.Aug 18 09:30
FurnaceBoyhiAug 18 09:30
FurnaceBoy_Goblin: how was your Tube tripAug 18 09:30
_Goblina crafty irc session whilst waiting for something at work...Aug 18 09:31
_Goblinhorrible!Aug 18 09:31
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Google plots pre-Christmas Chrome OS iPad killer - http://bit.ly/aKL4G8 should be interesting #chromeos #ipad #tablet #googleAug 18 09:32
TechrightsBotTitle: Google plots pre-Christmas Chrome OS iPad killer • reghardware .::. Size~: 19.86 KBAug 18 09:32
*roy is now known as schestowitzAug 18 09:32
_GoblinRoy is on his way to the house of Goblin!  ill be meeting him later tonight.Aug 18 09:32
schestowitz_Goblin: hiAug 18 09:33
FurnaceBoy_Goblin: lucky youAug 18 09:33
schestowitzAnyway, I'm logging off now.Aug 18 09:33
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Las Vegas Review-Journal Thinks Suing Sites Over Copyright Will Mean More People Link To It - http://bit.ly/a2N1Xj good luck with thatAug 18 09:34
TechrightsBotTitle: Las Vegas Review-Journal Thinks Suing Sites Over Copyright Will Mean More People Link To It | Techdirt .::. Size~: 44.98 KBAug 18 09:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Prosecutor: no charges in webcam spy scandal - http://bit.ly/d9r4OX yeah, that sends the right signal #privacyAug 18 09:35
TechrightsBotTitle: Prosecutor: no charges in webcam spy scandal .::. Size~: 26.66 KBAug 18 09:35
FurnaceBoyyes, that's very odd.Aug 18 09:35
FurnaceBoyno charges because 'no criminal intent'.Aug 18 09:35
FurnaceBoyit's almost as if ignorance of the law IS a successful defence, n'est ce pasAug 18 09:35
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FurnaceBoyruh rohAug 18 09:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Piracy Is Promotion, Says CEO of Porn Multinational - http://bit.ly/agv0o9 in the vanguard, as usual #piracy #promotionAug 18 09:41
TechrightsBotTitle:    Piracy Is Promotion, Says CEO of Porn Multinational | TorrentFreak   .::. Size~: 41.19 KBAug 18 09:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] How Science is rediscovering “Open” and what it means for government - http://bit.ly/bqmX2m so sad that we are excited by this storyAug 18 09:44
TechrightsBotTitle: How Science Is Rediscovering Open And What It Means For Government | eaves.ca .::. Size~: 32.91 KBAug 18 09:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[rcweir] RT @Lodahl: OpenOffice.org Celebrates Tenth Anniversary at OOoCon in Budapest http://bit.ly/aOxjC5 #ooo #oooconAug 18 09:48
TechrightsBotTitle: OpenOffice.org Celebrates Tenth Anniversary at OOoCon in Budapest  .::. Size~: 24.11 KBAug 18 09:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @juphoff: is hacking on code that searches for extraterrestrial intelligence. Seriously! SETI is going open-source! http://setiquest.org/Aug 18 09:52
TechrightsBotTitle: Homepage | setiQuest .::. Size~: 12.67 KBAug 18 09:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[mgeist] Negotiators confirm ACTA not really a "counterfeiting" treaty http://t.co/g3kPchF /via @arstechnicaAug 18 09:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] @glynmoody Huh?!? I thought Luc Devigne was removed from the EU ACTA team?Aug 18 09:53
TechrightsBotTitle: Negotiators confirm ACTA not really a "counterfeiting" treaty .::. Size~: 27.13 KBAug 18 09:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] John Mellencamp: The Internet Is An Atomic Bomb For Music http://dlvr.it/3yCqsAug 18 09:54
TechrightsBotTitle: John Mellencamp: The Internet Is An Atomic Bomb For Music | Techdirt .::. Size~: 32.96 KBAug 18 09:54
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] @jwildeboer you *believed* that?Aug 18 09:55
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jwildeboer] Wow. Quality journalism. http://is.gd/envkw Open Source article, Pic of #TheLarry, IBM, NOVL, AMZN, etc mentioned - but not #RHT? #failAug 18 09:59
TechrightsBotTitle:    How corporate America went open-source - Fortune Tech .::. Size~: 55.63 KBAug 18 09:59
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MinceRgnu screen still failsAug 18 10:11
FurnaceBoyhttp://pooteeweet.org/blog/0/1806Aug 18 10:21
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Any #postgresql devs in #Toronto? Need hardware? Contact me. Let's fuck #Oracle up, starting now.Aug 18 10:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[fosspatents] LWN discussion on #Oracle vs. #Google and related #patent issues now publicly accessible (no more paywall) http://bit.ly/a4s5MNAug 18 10:29
TechrightsBotTitle: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android (ars technica) [LWN.net] .::. Size~: 311.27 KBAug 18 10:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@a_picazo The not-at-ground-zero not-mosque. Just when you think the yanks have reached nadir of stupid, they outdo themselves.Aug 18 10:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Patent 5,966,702 - Method and apparatus for pre-processing and packaging class files http://tinyurl.com/26baczb #swpat #failAug 18 10:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Join me in 15mins for my live Ubuntu / community Q+A at http://bit.ly/wWBiQ #ubuntu #communityAug 18 10:47
TechrightsBotTitle: At Home With Jono Bacon on USTREAM: Ramblings on community, Linux and technology from Jono Bacon.. Computers .::. Size~: 90.47 KBAug 18 10:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Is Relying on Open Access Materials "Irresponsible"? - http://bit.ly/aNFF5y extraordinary the question is even asked #openaccess #canadaAug 18 10:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Open Governance – How can open communities make good decisions and get stuff done? - http://bit.ly/agpMPP good question #opengovernanceAug 18 10:51
TechrightsBotTitle: Open Governance  How can open communities make good decisions and get stuff done? «  Sharing Nicely .::. Size~: 22.85 KBAug 18 10:51
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gnufreexI fixed the swpatAug 18 10:54
gnufreexhttp://en.swpat.org/wiki/Oracle_v._Google_%282010,_USA%29#What_does_this_mean_for_Mono_and_C.23Aug 18 10:54
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] ♺ @smerrell: Just finished the Art of community by @jonobacon, its a great read!Aug 18 10:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Chair Designer Sues Disney Over Chair Used In Alice In Wonderland Movie http://dlvr.it/3yJwdAug 18 11:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Swine Still Soaring: Federal Circuit Judge Expresses Sympathy for Myriad Analysis - http://bit.ly/cqxRKT wow, amazingly hopeful #genepatentsAug 18 11:00
TechrightsBotTitle: Chair Designer Sues Disney Over Chair Used In Alice In Wonderland Movie | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.91 KBAug 18 11:00
DaemonFChttp://www.streamingmedia.com/Articles/Editorial/Featured-Articles/First-Look-H.264-and-VP8-Compared-67266.aspxAug 18 11:00
TechrightsBotTitle: Swine Still Soaring: Federal Circuit Judge Expresses Sympathy for Myriad Analysis .::. Size~: 55.37 KBAug 18 11:00
TechrightsBotTitle: First Look: H.264 and VP8 Compared - StreamingMedia.com .::. Size~: 55.49 KBAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCI missed this one entirelyAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCof course, it's a few months old and FFMPEG has already worked a lot of the problems out of Google's VP8 encoderAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCso VP8 from FFMPEG may do even betterAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCfrom what I've seen, there's also a few popular VP8 encoders that give really bad resultsAug 18 11:02
DaemonFClike VLC'sAug 18 11:02
DaemonFCI tried it out on VLC 1.1.2 and found that even WMV is superior in quality to it thereAug 18 11:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Chris Anderson: What I Read - http://bit.ly/99M9Jp interesting as much for the how as the what (via @jayrosen_nyu) #readingAug 18 11:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Chris Anderson: What I Read | The Atlantic Wire .::. Size~: 43.23 KBAug 18 11:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Safeguarding the BBC's archive - http://bbc.in/a6CASQ hope they do it better than in the past, when they wiped key tapes #bbcAug 18 11:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Combo pack of "patent + GPL code" restrict user to re-implement the same software from base/scratch. #google #oracle but no problem w/ comboAug 18 11:07
TechrightsBotTitle: BBC - BBC Internet Blog: Safeguarding the BBC's archive .::. Size~: 60.7 KBAug 18 11:07
amarsh04I've played a few .webm (vp8) videos in VLC 1.1.2 and mplayer produced by Jaxa.jp but haven't tried encoding stuff myselfAug 18 11:07
DaemonFCVLC's decoder is fineAug 18 11:08
DaemonFCactually, decoders tend to be broken far less often than encodersAug 18 11:09
DaemonFCbecause decoders are usually well defined whereas there are many different ways to ENCODE a valid bitstreamAug 18 11:09
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 11:09
DaemonFCamarsh04: VLC has the best h.264 encoder and I think that their x264 team just has penis envyAug 18 11:10
DaemonFCover VP8Aug 18 11:10
*sebsebseb has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Aug 18 11:10
DaemonFCthey're doing everything they can to passive aggressively try to make the format look less credibleAug 18 11:10
gnufreexx264 want to take down VP8Aug 18 11:10
DaemonFCso the low quality encoder could be deliberate Aug 18 11:10
gnufreexThey even work with MPEG LA. Aug 18 11:11
DaemonFCabout the biggest difference from one encoder to another is what kind of CPU will it compile and run on, and what CPU type, if any, it is optimized forAug 18 11:11
gnufreexDeamonFC: I just now saw what you wroteAug 18 11:11
gnufreexhaha.Aug 18 11:11
DaemonFCthose are really the thigns you look at when deciding on a decoderAug 18 11:11
DaemonFCerrrAug 18 11:12
DaemonFC*decoderAug 18 11:12
DaemonFCthat isAug 18 11:12
DaemonFCwhoopsAug 18 11:12
DaemonFCXiph.org provides an excellent reference decoder that works well on portable devices Aug 18 11:13
DaemonFCespecially ones with ARM type processors that those types of devices tend to haveAug 18 11:13
DaemonFCso implementing Vorbis support in a portable media player is trivialAug 18 11:13
DaemonFCif it's not there, it's because the manufacturer chose not to support itAug 18 11:13
DaemonFC*Vorbis anywayAug 18 11:13
DaemonFCTheora is not especially friendly to portable devices because they tend to be heavily hardware optimized for h.264Aug 18 11:14
gnufreexI think the reason is that Theora is optimized fof x86Aug 18 11:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Free Software on the reservations - http://bit.ly/beC22t interesting post about unusual issuesAug 18 11:15
TechrightsBotTitle: GNU Telephony  » Blog Archive   »  Free Software on the reservations .::. Size~: 12.8 KBAug 18 11:15
gnufreexnot the other wayAug 18 11:15
gnufreexGoogle have been doing some Theora/ARM optimizations on separate branchAug 18 11:16
DaemonFCWell, AAC cultists were trying to FUD Vorbis by saying it would drain your battery fasterAug 18 11:16
Diablo-D3noAug 18 11:16
Diablo-D3xiph hasAug 18 11:16
Diablo-D3and thats in the main branch now iircAug 18 11:16
Diablo-D3google has been doing the vp8 arm shitAug 18 11:16
gnufreexThat was before open sourcing of VP8Aug 18 11:16
DaemonFCso I tried it out myself and the battery drain difference between the two was about 1%, give or takeAug 18 11:16
gnufreexxiph has, and Google too... I think I read it on OS news.Aug 18 11:16
DaemonFCno real advantage for battery life one way or the otherAug 18 11:16
Diablo-D3osnews smoeshnewsAug 18 11:17
DaemonFCfrom what I could tellAug 18 11:17
DaemonFCMP3 on the other hand does go easier on the battery with a non-trivial differenceAug 18 11:17
DaemonFCof about 5% or soAug 18 11:17
DaemonFCbut that's because it's a less complicated formatAug 18 11:17
DaemonFClossless audio codecs all drain your battery quicklyAug 18 11:18
DaemonFCpersonally I'd rather go with Vorbis and have 1/3rd more usable space on my player's storage than go with MP3 and have 5% longer battery lifeAug 18 11:18
DaemonFCThere's probably a lot more patents to avoid when implementing a video codecAug 18 11:21
DaemonFCMP3 had all the really difficult to avoid patents and those are busy expiringAug 18 11:21
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 11:21
gnufreexDoes google do anything about converting YouTube to VP8Aug 18 11:21
gnufreex?Aug 18 11:21
DaemonFCanything you upload in HD is transcoded to VP8 and h.264Aug 18 11:22
gnufreexBut what about legacy?Aug 18 11:22
DaemonFCthe h.264 version is then either played in Flash or natively if the browser supports direct decoding and the video tagAug 18 11:22
gnufreexThere is crapload of H.264 only.Aug 18 11:23
DaemonFCno, old HD videos are h.264 onlyAug 18 11:23
DaemonFCthat's why they're unusable in ChromiumAug 18 11:23
DaemonFCbut play fine in ChromeAug 18 11:23
DaemonFCyou can build Chrome against FFMPEG's h.264 decoderAug 18 11:23
DaemonFCbut you'll probably be sued if you start distributing it like thatAug 18 11:24
DaemonFCat least in the USAug 18 11:24
DaemonFCerrr Chromium that isAug 18 11:24
DaemonFCso there's a number of Chromium builds surfacing on various Linux distros officially or otherwiseAug 18 11:24
DaemonFCwhich are built with h.264 decoding Aug 18 11:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] #Microsoft is not a tech company. Not at all. Tech is just how they get u in the door. Then they whack you like a cash piñata until you die.Aug 18 11:25
DaemonFCit's also possible to hook into Gstreamer and just use that if the user has an h.264 decoder Aug 18 11:25
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 11:25
amarsh04some of the youtube videos I download (hd ones from Jaxa) are in VP8 formatAug 18 11:26
DaemonFCif you just look for the Gstreamer plugin and use that, you can distribute that build of ChromiumAug 18 11:26
DaemonFCwithout violating any US patents yourselfAug 18 11:26
amarsh04I could get you a url if you likeAug 18 11:26
FurnaceBoy"the firing cost Reid not only his salary of $200,000 a year but also stock options worth as much as $10 million."Aug 18 11:26
FurnaceBoyhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/10/05/BA51SKDL3.DTLAug 18 11:27
TechrightsBotTitle: 'Old guy' gets another chance in Google age-discrimination suit .::. Size~: 106.39 KBAug 18 11:27
DaemonFCthe problem with patents isn't that they end up successfull ystopping third party unlicensed implementationsAug 18 11:27
DaemonFCthey just drive them undergroundAug 18 11:27
DaemonFCmake the user dance around trying to get something that should easily be availableAug 18 11:27
amarsh04e.g. the high definition version of this was in VP8 format when I downloaded it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZsrTID2mCsAug 18 11:29
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Exploring the Venusian Atmosphere - AKATSUKI/PLANET-C - [HD] .::. Size~: 93.37 KBAug 18 11:29
gnufreexPatents reward sucess with a lawsut.Aug 18 11:30
gnufreexPatents are a way to spoil something they somebody else madeAug 18 11:30
gnufreexPatents are an alien conspiracy to stop technological progres on EarthAug 18 11:30
gnufreexKill it with fire!!Aug 18 11:30
DaemonFChttp://www.tunequest.org/a-big-list-of-mp3-patents/20070226/Aug 18 11:30
TechrightsBotTitle: A Big List of MP3 Patents (and supposed expiration dates) | tunequest: music reviews and itunes too! .::. Size~: 77.95 KBAug 18 11:30
DaemonFCdecoding MP3 will be unpatented in the US in December 2012Aug 18 11:31
FurnaceBoygnufreex: +1Aug 18 11:31
FurnaceBoygnufreex: unfortunately an all-too-human mechanism to concentrate wealth Aug 18 11:31
FurnaceBoygnufreex: at the expense of humanityAug 18 11:31
DaemonFCso their artificial monopoly on MP3 won't live for longAug 18 11:31
DaemonFCjust over 27 months left to file those lawsuits boysAug 18 11:32
DaemonFCtick tock :PAug 18 11:32
gnufreexAliens will lose.Aug 18 11:32
gnufreex:PAug 18 11:32
FurnaceBoygnufreex: no aliens.Aug 18 11:32
FurnaceBoygnufreex: it's a purely human conspiracy :)Aug 18 11:32
gnufreexFurnaceBoy: Dont take my tinfoil hat away!!Aug 18 11:33
gnufreex:-)Aug 18 11:33
FurnaceBoygnufreex: that is chinese made foil, has no effectAug 18 11:33
FurnaceBoygnufreex: you've been bathing in emissions for years without knowingAug 18 11:33
gnufreexFurnaceBoy: You are no fun.Aug 18 11:34
FurnaceBoygnufreex: especially todayAug 18 11:34
*FurnaceBoy does a non-funny danceAug 18 11:34
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DaemonFCUS Patent #: 5,214,742 Aug 18 11:34
DaemonFCExpired: May 25, 2010Aug 18 11:35
DaemonFChttp://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5214742&id=U6ojAAAAEBAJ&dq=5,214,742Aug 18 11:35
TechrightsBotTitle: Method for transmitting a signal - Google Patent Search .::. Size~: 21.05 KBAug 18 11:35
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 11:35
DaemonFChttp://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5227990&id=iYoiAAAAEBAJ&dq=5,227,990Aug 18 11:36
TechrightsBotTitle: Process for transmitting and ... - Google Patent Search .::. Size~: 26.11 KBAug 18 11:36
DaemonFCUS Patent #: 5,227,990Aug 18 11:36
DaemonFCExpired: July 13, 2010Aug 18 11:36
DaemonFCThose are the MP3 related patents that died this yearAug 18 11:37
DaemonFCThomson owned both of themAug 18 11:37
DaemonFCno more MP3 patents expire until January 25, 2012Aug 18 11:39
DaemonFCwhen two more of them will expire on the same dayAug 18 11:39
DaemonFCthe last MP3 patent covering decoding dies on December 30, 2012Aug 18 11:40
DaemonFCthe last patent covering encoding dies on December 30, 2017Aug 18 11:40
gnufreexIs they are doing something to make new propriatry standard? How can we sabotage that :PAug 18 11:41
DaemonFCAACAug 18 11:42
DaemonFCnew batch of patents that won't expire until the late 2020sAug 18 11:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @stshank: This meme is hilarious. Until Skynet starts hunting us like rats. http://bit.ly/bxLyDcAug 18 11:43
TechrightsBotTitle: Google = Skynet T-Shirt .::. Size~: 24.94 KBAug 18 11:43
gnufreexOh yeah... AAC...Aug 18 11:43
DaemonFChttp://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/203564/htc_planning_black_friday_launch_of_chrome_tablet.html?tk=hp_popAug 18 11:48
TechrightsBotTitle: HTC Planning Black Friday Launch of Chrome Tablet - PCWorld Business Center .::. Size~: 67.2 KBAug 18 11:48
DaemonFCI might buy one if the price/usefulness ratio is rightAug 18 11:48
DaemonFC:PAug 18 11:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @mrdatahs: Posted on Googling Google: "The GDrive is out of beta! (For Google Apps customers at least)" http://bit.ly/bh0L5tAug 18 11:51
TechrightsBotTitle: The GDrive is out of beta! (For Google Apps customers at least) | ZDNet  .::. Size~: 97.32 KBAug 18 11:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @rikkikite: Video: @geekygirldawn shows #MeeGo for netbooks at #linuxcon: http://bit.ly/acLiFi via @Trevanon @linux_proAug 18 11:53
TechrightsBotTitle: Hands-on: MeeGo for Netbooks - Linux Magazine Online  .::. Size~: 29.78 KBAug 18 11:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] My. Internet. Connection. Is. So. So. Slow. Argh!Aug 18 11:54
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sebsebseb Aug 18 12:07
DaemonFChttp://it.slashdot.org/story/10/08/18/1534258/Linux-Xorg-Critical-Security-Flaw-Silently-PatchedAug 18 12:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Slashdot IT Story | Linux Xorg Critical Security Flaw Silently Patched .::. Size~: 141.35 KBAug 18 12:08
DaemonFCSilent patching in Xorg nowAug 18 12:08
DaemonFCno, waitAug 18 12:09
DaemonFCit's a Linux bug that was silently patchedAug 18 12:09
DaemonFCso much for Microsoft's silent patchingAug 18 12:10
DaemonFCLinus does it tooAug 18 12:10
*DaemonFC waits for the spinAug 18 12:10
DaemonFCthe critical flaw affects every Linux kernel since the original 2.6 release in 2003Aug 18 12:10
gnufreex-*- it's nothingAug 18 12:11
DaemonFCheh, when a bug affects all versiond of Windows since XP, schestowitz has an orgasmAug 18 12:12
DaemonFCbut when something equally bad surfaces in Linux, it's forgivableAug 18 12:12
DaemonFCsomehowAug 18 12:12
sebsebsebWhos gnufreex ?Aug 18 12:12
DaemonFCprobably goblinAug 18 12:13
gnufreexMeAug 18 12:13
DaemonFCor cubezzzAug 18 12:13
sebsebsebwell yeahAug 18 12:13
MinceRhttp://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7d0ogUyXV1qb25dg.jpgAug 18 12:13
TechrightsBotTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 18 12:13
sebsebseb,but who are you?Aug 18 12:13
sebsebseblike from and age and such?Aug 18 12:13
DaemonFC14/f/AOLAug 18 12:13
DaemonFClulzAug 18 12:13
DaemonFCwanna cyber? :PAug 18 12:13
DaemonFCheheAug 18 12:13
MinceR211019  * DaemonFC waits for the spinAug 18 12:13
MinceRyou wait for your own spin afterward?Aug 18 12:13
gnufreexsebsebseb: show your birth certificate and I will show mine :PAug 18 12:14
sebsebsebgnufreex: ok I am from EnglandAug 18 12:14
sebsebsebwhat about you?Aug 18 12:14
gnufreexI am from SerbiaAug 18 12:14
DaemonFCMinceR: You'd figure mirrors covering 50 square miles reflecting light onto a tower that's 15 stories high would power some diabolical James Bond villain's laser beam so he could ransom the moonAug 18 12:15
sebsebsebgnufreex: oh yeah I saw your host name earlierAug 18 12:15
sebsebsebanyway your new here?Aug 18 12:15
DaemonFCnot power a few thousand housesAug 18 12:15
DaemonFC:PAug 18 12:15
MinceRDaemonFC: the Moonraper?Aug 18 12:15
DaemonFCI like thatAug 18 12:15
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Hey, Do Oracle has patents on Open Office ? #openoffice @LodahlAug 18 12:16
gnufreexsebsebseb: On this chat? You could say so. Aug 18 12:16
sebsebsebgnufreex: host names on the listAug 18 12:16
DaemonFCMinceR: Then what about the carbon footprint of building the towerAug 18 12:16
sebsebsebwell when hovering over a nickAug 18 12:16
sebsebsebif it will showAug 18 12:16
DaemonFCand all the mirrorsAug 18 12:16
DaemonFCand the transmission linesAug 18 12:16
DaemonFC:DAug 18 12:16
sebsebsebgnufreex: Anyway how you end up in here?Aug 18 12:16
MinceRDaemonFC: yes, what about it?Aug 18 12:16
DaemonFCyou'd have to run the thing for over 10 years to offset the carbon footprint of building itAug 18 12:17
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out)Aug 18 12:17
DaemonFCnot to mention the thing would be damned expensiveAug 18 12:17
gnufreexsebsebseb: I am not sure what you mean? I read Roys articles...Aug 18 12:18
DaemonFCso what happens if you're in an area where earthquakes or something hitAug 18 12:18
gnufreexI don't know why :-)Aug 18 12:18
DaemonFCand could end up destroying the tower?Aug 18 12:18
sebsebsebgnufreex: ok and found out about the channel from there?Aug 18 12:18
gnufreexsebsebseb: YesAug 18 12:19
DaemonFCIndiana has more wind power right now than any other state in the USAug 18 12:19
sebsebseboh logs look this channel is not being publically logged at the momentAug 18 12:19
DaemonFCand plans to double it within the next 5 yearsAug 18 12:19
sebsebsebsince no schestowitz anything in the listAug 18 12:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Will Kids Change Their Names As They Become Adults To Hide From Their Google Permanent Record? http://dlvr.it/3yR7zAug 18 12:19
TechrightsBotTitle: Will Kids Change Their Names As They Become Adults To Hide From Their Google Permanent Record? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 21.01 KBAug 18 12:19
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sebsebsebnow  DaemonFC  might be really naughtey in here, as a resultAug 18 12:19
sebsebsebthen again he didn't care much about logs anyway :DAug 18 12:19
DaemonFCwe believe that wind could privide about 5% of our power needsAug 18 12:19
MinceRsebsebseb: i had op until screen fucked upAug 18 12:19
MinceRand made me timeoutAug 18 12:19
sebsebsebSo where is Roy?Aug 18 12:20
DaemonFCMinceR got pwned by the 7 year old critical Linux bugAug 18 12:20
DaemonFChe was running an unpatched kernelAug 18 12:20
DaemonFC:PAug 18 12:20
sebsebsebuhmm?Aug 18 12:20
MinceRDaemonFC: it's not in the kernel you retardAug 18 12:20
DaemonFCHe would have updated if the bug was marked as having security implications Aug 18 12:20
DaemonFCpoor MinceRAug 18 12:20
MinceRsebsebseb: he said something about _GoblinAug 18 12:20
sebsebsebwhat about him?Aug 18 12:20
MinceRhe's going to _Goblin'sAug 18 12:21
sebsebsebohAug 18 12:21
sebsebseb,but he leaves his computerAug 18 12:21
sebsebsebon normalleyAug 18 12:21
MinceRor so he saidAug 18 12:21
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DaemonFCI had Windows 7 freeze up on me yesterday, so that makes a total of 3 crashes since I started using the final version of Windows 7 in July of last yearAug 18 12:22
DaemonFC3 crashes spanning 13 months isn't terribleAug 18 12:22
sebsebseblol DaemonFC uses Windows 7Aug 18 12:22
sebsebsebVita Version 2Aug 18 12:22
sebsebsebhave fun with itAug 18 12:22
sebsebseb!Aug 18 12:22
sebsebsebnow sometimes people really do need Windows, but  DaemonFC probably doesn'tAug 18 12:23
DaemonFCThat's about 1 crash per 4.33 monthsAug 18 12:23
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:23
DaemonFCThat is an improvement over Vista or XPAug 18 12:23
DaemonFCI had XP crash about once a month on averageAug 18 12:24
FurnaceBoywho caresAug 18 12:24
FurnaceBoyyou think the issues with MS are technicalAug 18 12:25
FurnaceBoysure, their tech is crap, but that's not the main point..Aug 18 12:25
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: this year-uptime is old hat to users of other operating systems.Aug 18 12:25
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: windows is the aberrationAug 18 12:25
DaemonFCLinux + nvidia or Catalyst = 1 crash whenever the hell the driver doesn't like the video game you just clicked onAug 18 12:26
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: but of course the ms ghetto doesn't get thatAug 18 12:26
FurnaceBoyserver people do, which is why MS has no credibility thereAug 18 12:26
DaemonFCserver people don't care about video gamesAug 18 12:26
FurnaceBoy $ uptime                                                                                                 Aug 18 12:27
FurnaceBoy 15:26:50 up 776 days,  4:25,  1 user,  load average: 0.11, 0.08, 0.02Aug 18 12:27
DaemonFCif you're perfectly happy to use no X server at all, then problems with X or video drivers don't hit you oftenAug 18 12:27
DaemonFCand Linux can stay up for months or yearsAug 18 12:27
DaemonFCyayAug 18 12:27
FurnaceBoythe world of reliable systems is larger than linux, too.Aug 18 12:27
DaemonFCthe problem isn't so much that Linux is crap, the problems I see are largely related to X or the binary video driversAug 18 12:27
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FurnaceBoybut again, the MS ghetto doesn't know that.Aug 18 12:27
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you can avoid such issues entirely if you wish.Aug 18 12:28
FurnaceBoylinux isn't the only game in town.Aug 18 12:28
DaemonFCright, don't install XAug 18 12:28
DaemonFCthat leaves me with Mac OSAug 18 12:28
DaemonFC:PAug 18 12:28
MinceRinstall X if you want itAug 18 12:28
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MinceRit's still more reliable than winblowsAug 18 12:29
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DaemonFCbullshitAug 18 12:29
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FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you're exaggerating.Aug 18 12:29
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DaemonFCX does nothing to protect itself from a driver crashAug 18 12:29
DaemonFCthe entire system diesAug 18 12:29
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: I can't remember ever seeing an X crash on linux.Aug 18 12:29
DaemonFCwith Windows, the screen flickers for half a secondAug 18 12:29
MinceRwinblows dies tooAug 18 12:29
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you should try using it.Aug 18 12:29
DaemonFCand the system keeps runningAug 18 12:29
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: LOL!Aug 18 12:29
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: give it up.Aug 18 12:29
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you clearly just prefer windows.Aug 18 12:29
DaemonFCXP is the last version of Windows that lets the video driver crash itAug 18 12:30
DaemonFCLinux still doesAug 18 12:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: we don't care.Aug 18 12:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] crumbs, I seem to have 0 followers: was it something I said...? (not that anyone will read this....)Aug 18 12:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: odd, i don't recall seeing such a problem with linux.Aug 18 12:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: try running it. or any of the other reliable systems.Aug 18 12:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: or just run windows and shut up.Aug 18 12:30
DaemonFCanybody who hasn't crashed X isn't trying hard enoughAug 18 12:31
DaemonFCbuy a real GPU and install the drivers for itAug 18 12:31
DaemonFCthen you'll see what I meanAug 18 12:31
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:31
FurnaceBoywe just are interested in getting sh*t done, actually.Aug 18 12:31
*FurnaceBoy (~FurnaceBo@ns2.smartgames.ca) has left #boycottnovell ("goes back to work on .. linux")Aug 18 12:32
DaemonFCand you'll get SHIT done when X bombs out on you and takes everything that was open with itAug 18 12:32
DaemonFC:DAug 18 12:32
MinceRprotip: there are real GPUs that aren't atiAug 18 12:33
DaemonFCmehAug 18 12:33
amarsh04I can't recall an X server crash myselfAug 18 12:33
DaemonFCif you want to spend a fortune and get a slightly revised core that's basically 4 years oldAug 18 12:33
gnufreexDaemonFC: That is exactly point, if you use open source drivers then no problemsAug 18 12:33
DaemonFC(Nvidia)Aug 18 12:33
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] thanks to all the people (and chickens) who confirmed they didn't exist either...its good to have company in limbo...Aug 18 12:34
DaemonFCNvidia has balls, I mean, selling garbage that's not even fully compliant with the latest major versions of DirectX or OpenGLAug 18 12:34
DaemonFCespecially at $300 or moreAug 18 12:34
DaemonFCthe fact that they have any customers left after the last two years is a testament to fanboism Aug 18 12:35
MinceRati has balls, i mean, selling garbage without driversAug 18 12:36
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] <wonders> so is that what it is like when Twitter turns its back on you for an instant...?</wonders>Aug 18 12:36
MinceRespecially at $300 or moreAug 18 12:36
DaemonFCThe Quadro can handle OpenGL 4Aug 18 12:36
DaemonFCif you want to unload $1,200Aug 18 12:36
MinceRthe fact that they have any customers left after the last ten years is a testament to fanboyismAug 18 12:36
DaemonFCI mean it's really up to you how many stacks of $100s you feel that functionality is worthAug 18 12:36
MinceRi happen to have a quadro in my thinkpad :>Aug 18 12:37
amarsh04the only nvidia hardware I was responsible for purchasing was a quadro 750, not bad for its timeAug 18 12:37
DaemonFCright, I got a card with OpenGL 4 support for about $100Aug 18 12:37
DaemonFCNvidia has nothing in this price range with full OpenGL 4 or DirectX 11 capabilityAug 18 12:37
MinceRand for how much will you get drivers?Aug 18 12:38
MinceRoh snapAug 18 12:38
DaemonFCI downloaded them and installed them? :)Aug 18 12:38
MinceRand then they crashed your X?Aug 18 12:39
DaemonFChttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125333Aug 18 12:39
TechrightsBotTitle: Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GV-N460OC-1GI GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card .::. Size~: 142.09 KBAug 18 12:39
DaemonFC$229 for Nvidia with OpenGL 4 supportAug 18 12:39
DaemonFCthat's the cheapest you'll get it for with themAug 18 12:40
DaemonFCATI cards have it starting around $90 or soAug 18 12:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[glynmoody] Open Source for Analysts: an interview with Matthew Burton - http://bit.ly/9SCFEN "former intelligence analyst turned OSS cause celebre"Aug 18 12:40
TechrightsBotTitle: OnePeople &rsaquo; Spook Developer Speaks! An interview with Matthew Burton. .::. Size~: 30.4 KBAug 18 12:40
MinceRcrash your X for $90Aug 18 12:40
MinceRwhat a bargainAug 18 12:40
DaemonFCor jsut avoid LinuxAug 18 12:40
DaemonFCaand buy Windows with the price differenceAug 18 12:40
MinceRor just avoid atiAug 18 12:40
DaemonFC(And possibly lunch)Aug 18 12:40
DaemonFC:DAug 18 12:41
MinceRand use a GPU that isn't garbageAug 18 12:41
DaemonFCit's not the GPU that's garbageAug 18 12:41
MinceRand buy lunch from what you'd have spent on m$ taxAug 18 12:41
DaemonFCit's their Linux driversAug 18 12:41
DaemonFCthe GPU is awesomeAug 18 12:41
MinceRand their winblows driversAug 18 12:41
DaemonFCyeahAug 18 12:41
MinceRand any other drivers... oh wait, there's noneAug 18 12:41
MinceRit's a paperweightAug 18 12:41
DaemonFCtheir Linux drivers kill performance, crash X a lot, etc.Aug 18 12:42
amarsh04the free radeon drivers are being actively worked on and the developers are quite helpfulAug 18 12:42
DaemonFCBad Linux driver, bad! *goes after it with a broom handle*Aug 18 12:42
DaemonFCheheAug 18 12:42
DaemonFCright there's lots of choices for ATI drivers on Linux, but none of them work rightAug 18 12:43
DaemonFCand none support everything the hardware is capable ofAug 18 12:43
amarsh04many of the improvements are in the kernel code rather than the xserver-xorg-video code, so a new kernel is helpfulAug 18 12:43
*mentalnotes (~eric@203-184-42-243.callplus.net.nz) has left #boycottnovell ("Ex-Chat")Aug 18 12:43
amarsh04true, maybe the opengraphics project needs to get to the stage of mass producing a cardAug 18 12:44
DaemonFCWell, both ATI and Nvidia have said repeatedly that they don't write their Linux driver from scratch for LinuxAug 18 12:44
DaemonFC80-90% of it is jsut the same code that's in the Windows versionAug 18 12:44
DaemonFCtied to the kernel with an abstraction layerAug 18 12:44
DaemonFCwhich sounds craptacular to meAug 18 12:44
DaemonFCit saves them a buttload of money, but it's not an optimized Linux driverAug 18 12:45
DaemonFCit's really just a second rate port that was designed to save them a buttload of moneyAug 18 12:45
MinceRnow tell us how that's linux's faultAug 18 12:45
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:45
MinceRtechnicallyAug 18 12:45
DaemonFCtechnically it isn'tAug 18 12:45
MinceRthen stop spewing bullshit alreadyAug 18 12:45
MinceReveryone is tired of itAug 18 12:45
MinceRyou're making clueful regulars go awayAug 18 12:45
DaemonFCbut Nouveau and Radeon are both insufficientAug 18 12:46
MinceRno shitAug 18 12:46
DaemonFCso how do I make my hardware work well?Aug 18 12:46
DaemonFCI don't care whose fault it isAug 18 12:46
MinceRbuy intel or nvidia?Aug 18 12:46
DaemonFCI do care that it can't work rightAug 18 12:46
MinceRand use the nonfree driver in the latter caseAug 18 12:46
DaemonFCa lot of that is jsut playing the blame gameAug 18 12:47
MinceRnot reallyAug 18 12:47
DaemonFCor settling for "good enough for a workstation"Aug 18 12:47
MinceRagain, not reallyAug 18 12:47
amarsh04I was *given* a second-hand radeon 3850HD and have been quite happy with itAug 18 12:47
MinceRprotip: you don't get free drivers for winblowsAug 18 12:47
MinceRfor any GPUAug 18 12:47
DaemonFCright, and people would be getting fired as the company went bankrupt if any of their Windows drivers were half as bad as their binary Linux onesAug 18 12:48
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:48
MinceRpeople would have gotten fired if anyone cared about what m$ did and how negligent IBM wasAug 18 12:49
DaemonFCIBM was incompetent with OS/2Aug 18 12:49
DaemonFCit was a great system and they pissed all over it and threw it awayAug 18 12:49
MinceRthe incompetence started earlierAug 18 12:50
MinceRtry CP/M-86Aug 18 12:50
DaemonFCBeOS had similar problemsAug 18 12:50
DaemonFCgood OS, piss poor managementAug 18 12:50
MinceRBeOS wasn't even goodAug 18 12:50
MinceRit's a single-user blast from the pastAug 18 12:50
DaemonFCthe PC version wasn't as good as the PPC versionAug 18 12:51
amarsh04bring back multics (-:Aug 18 12:51
DaemonFCI liked OS/2Aug 18 12:51
DaemonFCI had a laptop that I bought with OS/2 from Radio ShackAug 18 12:51
MinceRi would have probably liked OS/2Aug 18 12:51
MinceRbut by the time i could switch OS-es i could get Red Hat 7Aug 18 12:52
DaemonFCIBM actually shipped Thinkpads with OS/2 preloaded on them to Radio Shack for a whileAug 18 12:52
MinceRand after that i didn't care about OS/2Aug 18 12:52
DaemonFCto compete with Windows 95Aug 18 12:52
DaemonFCMicrosoft stopped that within about a yearAug 18 12:52
DaemonFCbut I got one of themAug 18 12:52
MinceRit must have been a better time when IBM actually tried to compete on desktops/laptopsAug 18 12:52
MinceRthen they let OS/2 die and they sold ThinkPadAug 18 12:52
MinceRthey also sold their HDD divisionAug 18 12:52
DaemonFCOS/2 was perfect when you stacked it up against Windows 95Aug 18 12:52
DaemonFCit was fast, it didn't crashAug 18 12:53
MinceRof courseAug 18 12:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] The Android-powered Augen GenTouch78 is no iPad http://is.gd/enGXC The 1st mass-market Android tablet is here... and it needs fixing.Aug 18 12:53
amarsh04cost of RAM and hard disks also influenced what was possibleAug 18 12:53
DaemonFCit has TCP/IP nativelyAug 18 12:53
MinceRthen again, pretty much anything is perfect when you stack it up against win95Aug 18 12:53
DaemonFCnot sold separately Aug 18 12:53
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 12:53
MinceRanything except winme, vista and vista7Aug 18 12:53
DaemonFCOS/2 was a modern OSAug 18 12:53
DaemonFCWindows 9x was notAug 18 12:53
amarsh04win 3.1/3.11 ran ok with 8 MiB RAM, but so did OS/2 warpAug 18 12:53
DaemonFCso it wasn't really even a contest as to which was superior Aug 18 12:53
MinceRas modern as a protected-mode version of CP/M could be :>Aug 18 12:54
amarsh04and OS/2 was far more stableAug 18 12:54
DaemonFCI had Warp 4Aug 18 12:54
DaemonFCFirefox still runs on OS/2 Warp 4 btwAug 18 12:55
DaemonFCit's semi-officialAug 18 12:55
DaemonFCbut from what I hear, it works just fineAug 18 12:55
MinceROS/2 is deadAug 18 12:55
DaemonFCOS/2 is still sold as eComStation by Serenity SystemsAug 18 12:55
MinceRnot even the company that sells it has access to the source codeAug 18 12:55
MinceRthey can't really improve it any moreAug 18 12:56
DaemonFCnot really trueAug 18 12:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Oracle [aka obstacle] is porting JMF to gstreamer API for OpenOffice. Good. Let him complete. just fork open-office after that.Aug 18 12:56
MinceRObstacleAug 18 12:56
MinceRi like thatAug 18 12:56
DaemonFChttp://www.osnews.com/story/23337/eComStation_2_0_ReleasedAug 18 12:56
TechrightsBotTitle: eComStation 2.0 Released .::. Size~: 23.32 KBAug 18 12:56
MinceRwow, windows-like installers are painless now?Aug 18 12:58
DaemonFCthe Home And Student license is $149Aug 18 12:58
DaemonFCand lets you install it on 5 PCsAug 18 12:58
DaemonFC(but there's no activationI believe, so you could install it on as many as you want)Aug 18 12:59
*desu (desu@unaffiliated/desu) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 12:59
DaemonFCthey had a demo disc live CD of ecomstation 1 at one pointAug 18 12:59
DaemonFChttp://toastytech.com/guis/ecsd.htmlAug 18 13:00
TechrightsBotTitle: eComStation Demo CD .::. Size~: 7.53 KBAug 18 13:00
DaemonFCthat's eComStation 1's demo disc Aug 18 13:00
MinceRi didn't find the part where it said that Serenity Systems now gets to improve the core of the systemAug 18 13:00
DaemonFCSerenity says that ecomstation will be sold and developed as long as they can make a profit on itAug 18 13:05
DaemonFCI do believe they have the source code and under contract, can modify the systemAug 18 13:05
MinceRand which parts will be developed?Aug 18 13:05
MinceRthe skin and the bundled utilities or what OS/2 used to be?Aug 18 13:05
DaemonFCthey've added things like ACPI supportAug 18 13:05
MinceRor IBM added it for them?Aug 18 13:06
DaemonFCthat would be kind of difficult without the kernel source available to them I should thinkAug 18 13:06
DaemonFCSerenity added itAug 18 13:06
amarsh04they're doing better than SCOG did with UnixWare and OpenServerAug 18 13:06
MinceRor IBM added it for a few clients and then made it available to them?Aug 18 13:06
MinceRwell, Serenity is doing somethingAug 18 13:06
MinceRSCO did nothing, except for FUD and lawsuitsAug 18 13:06
DaemonFCSerenity is minding their own business and nto trying to sue the hell out of Linux users on bogus allegations of copyright infringementAug 18 13:07
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:07
DaemonFCso there you goAug 18 13:07
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:07
DaemonFCthat's already better than SCOAug 18 13:07
DaemonFChell, Dennis Ritchie himself commented on the SCO caseAug 18 13:08
DaemonFCback right after they filed the lawsuitAug 18 13:08
amarsh04I have actually met Dennis RitchieAug 18 13:08
DaemonFCand said that the lawsuit based on a couple of header files was total and complete bullshitAug 18 13:08
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:08
DaemonFChttp://www.thefreelibrary.com/UNIX+Leader+SCO+Recognizes+Creators+of+UNIX+System.-a054502060Aug 18 13:09
TechrightsBotTitle: UNIX Leader SCO Recognizes Creators of UNIX System. - Free Online Library .::. Size~: 19.15 KBAug 18 13:10
DaemonFClmaoAug 18 13:10
DaemonFCUNIX Leader SCO!Aug 18 13:10
DaemonFCSCO is leading two things, Jack and shitAug 18 13:10
DaemonFCand Jack left townAug 18 13:10
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:10
DaemonFCyeah, I always wondered why Novell isn't bitter about Microsoft funding SCO's lawsuit against NovellAug 18 13:11
amarsh04I was glad that enough people recognised John Lions' work to enable his book to be officially publishedAug 18 13:11
DaemonFCisn't that kind of odd?Aug 18 13:11
DaemonFCIf someone paid someone else to attack you, you wouldn't like that person much, right?Aug 18 13:11
amarsh04Novell have always had to have stuff that was microsoft compatible, they called it co-opetition back in the old daysAug 18 13:12
DaemonFCNovell has to know that Microsoft will stab them in the back and twist the knife the second it becomes viable for them to do soAug 18 13:12
amarsh04there was netware for VMS once upon a time alsoAug 18 13:13
DaemonFCyes, Novell stuff has always had a Windows versionAug 18 13:13
DaemonFCwith very few exceptionsAug 18 13:13
DaemonFCand not all of their stuff has been badAug 18 13:14
DaemonFCDeveloping second rate .NET is probably the worst idea they've hadAug 18 13:14
MinceR221250 < DaemonFC> Novell has to know that Microsoft will stab them in the back and twist the knife the second it becomes viable for them to do soAug 18 13:14
MinceRwhich they didAug 18 13:14
MinceRand now m$ stands at the valve of their IV dripAug 18 13:14
MinceRand novell does what m$ tells them to doAug 18 13:14
MinceRand the worst of it is that it didn't have to happen if novell didn't want itAug 18 13:15
DaemonFCwell, I wasn't really interested in having an office suite that can save to OOXML, because I don't want to make more of the damned thingsAug 18 13:15
DaemonFCI just needed one that could open the OOXML files I do happen to receive without mangling the formatting beyond recognitionAug 18 13:16
DaemonFCIBM's Lotus Symphony has been working pretty well where OOo Novell Edition wasn'tAug 18 13:16
gnufreexDaemonFC: Why not use Real OOoAug 18 13:16
gnufreex?Aug 18 13:16
DaemonFCimporting OOXML and exporting either ODF or PDF is what I needAug 18 13:17
DaemonFCbecause their import filters for OOXML basically suck hardAug 18 13:17
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:17
DaemonFCI should have taken screenshots of some examples back when I was trying to make OOo work for meAug 18 13:17
gnufreexDaemonFC: Can OOo import OOXML ?Aug 18 13:17
gnufreexI didn't triedAug 18 13:17
DaemonFCkind ofAug 18 13:17
DaemonFCit gets a lot of formatting problemsAug 18 13:18
amarsh04what version of mainline OOo did you last use, DaemonFC?Aug 18 13:18
DaemonFCbut yeah, it will basically open themAug 18 13:18
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] Is Oracle going after Google because Ellison is buddies with Jobs? |http://bit.ly/dm3rT6 It seemed silly, until I started looking into it.Aug 18 13:18
TechrightsBotTitle: Is Oracle going after Google because Ellison is buddies with Jobs? | ITworld .::. Size~: 84.65 KBAug 18 13:18
DaemonFCamarsh04: I tried OOo 3.2, and 3.3 betaAug 18 13:18
amarsh04ok...Aug 18 13:18
DaemonFCas well as Go-OO, and OOo Novell EditionAug 18 13:18
gnufreexDaemonFC: You can thank Microsoft for formating. They brag about their lack of interoperabily and call it a feature. Most recently, they bragged how Google docs can't do their stuff. Aug 18 13:19
DaemonFCso Lotus is the only option that works right, doesn't cost me money, and doesn't involve downloading 1.5 GB of MS Office and then installing tons of plug-ins to make it a semi-sane environment for meAug 18 13:19
amarsh04I just have the debian 3.2.1-3 until some packages currently dependent on older python get working with the newer pythonAug 18 13:19
MinceRso there is a point to Lotus Symphony after allAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCrightAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCI like itAug 18 13:20
amarsh04but I haven't been on the receiving end of many ms-word created documentsAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCthe improvements aren't just aesthetic Aug 18 13:20
MinceRtoo bad it's proprietaryAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCamarsh04: They have Linux packages for LotusAug 18 13:20
*amarsh04 still has to learn lyx sometimeAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCMinceR: It saves to properly supported open standards with no trickery involvedAug 18 13:21
DaemonFCso that's really the most important partAug 18 13:21
amarsh04I hardly use OOo as it is... Abiword does alright for anything I need to print out or turn into pdfAug 18 13:21
DaemonFChow easy is it to get away if the maker of that software tries to fuck youAug 18 13:21
MinceRi'll keep it in mind in case i need to read ooxmlAug 18 13:21
MinceR(but probably i won't ever :> )Aug 18 13:21
MinceRi hardly use oooAug 18 13:21
MinceRi use it to read m$ office documents that gnome office won't openAug 18 13:22
MinceRi use abiword to read what it does readAug 18 13:22
MinceRi use gnumeric for spreadsheetsAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCAbiWord is nice for what it isAug 18 13:22
MinceRand i use LaTeX to create printed documentsAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCa small and not overly complicated word processorAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCwith basic feature setAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCI have it tooAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCI also have Gedit :)Aug 18 13:23
amarsh04I went against using gnome after fam was too cpu intensive. In Debian one can replace fam with inotifyAug 18 13:23
DaemonFCthere's not many basic-ish text editors for Windows that do syntax highlight and spell checkAug 18 13:23
DaemonFCso Gedit is nice to haveAug 18 13:23
amarsh04gnumeric was one of the reasons I wanted to run GNU/Linux - it didn't have the calculation defects of excelAug 18 13:24
DaemonFCI think that's the problem with the "How many editors do you need" argument Aug 18 13:24
DaemonFCcause all of them have different strengths in different use casesAug 18 13:24
amarsh04I also wanted to run the *ml editor QuantaAug 18 13:24
DaemonFCso it's perfectly reasonable to end up with many of them isntalledAug 18 13:24
DaemonFCThe bloat accusation is a fallacy because of use casesAug 18 13:25
amarsh04I didn't want a web development application that was tied to a particular DTD Aug 18 13:25
DaemonFC80% of the users only use 20% of the features, but they all use a different 20% is the best way I've heard the counter-argumentAug 18 13:26
DaemonFCso if you remove any of the features you're going to make a lot of users angry :)Aug 18 13:26
amarsh04I've seen at least one child take to xaralx on GNU/Linux because it was intuitive to useAug 18 13:26
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DaemonFCIn a lot of ways I respect what GNOME is doingAug 18 13:26
DaemonFCbut not to the level they've taken itAug 18 13:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] ♺ @reznuk: @jonobacon interesting "open-door" meeting, I touch less formal than I expected, but good - thanks.Aug 18 13:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] RT @arnebab ♻ @drascus: please sign the #fsf petition against ACTA if you haven't already it goes out tomorrow http://bit.ly/dBRSCc #fsAug 18 13:27
TechrightsBotTitle: Support a firm, simple declaration against ACTA &mdash; Free Software Foundation &mdash; working together for free software .::. Size~: 32.83 KBAug 18 13:27
DaemonFCif a feature is so broadly used that most of your users will complain when it's not there, don't remove it and then argue with hundreds of users in a bug reportAug 18 13:27
DaemonFCUbuntu makes the GNOME problem even worseAug 18 13:27
DaemonFC"No, you really don't want it, you see? Somebody out there is too dense to understand that feature, so we will make all of you suffer instead!"Aug 18 13:28
DaemonFCis how I hear a lot of Shuttleworth's commentsAug 18 13:28
MinceRgnumeric is also fast, besides being correctAug 18 13:28
MinceRa hidden advantage of gedit is that it's extensibleAug 18 13:29
MinceRi prefer gvim thoughAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCplug-insAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCrightAug 18 13:29
amarsh04I had a very rough patch accepted for gthumb simply because it went some way towards avoiding accidentally overwriting an image file with an edited versionAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCthere's nothing wrong with making a basic no-frills app and supporting plug-insAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCthat's probably the only compromise that works without getting the accusation of being bloatedAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCsomewhere along the way, GNOME moved away from that and more towards monolithic applications that just have no features and no way to extend them to your needsAug 18 13:30
amarsh04Abiword has a couple of ways selecting fonts - the scrolling list of all fonts is slow when you have lots of fonts. Fortunately the other way is much fasterAug 18 13:30
DaemonFCI agree with MinceR hereAug 18 13:31
MinceRthe accusation is irrelevant thoughAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCI call that HIG Nazi-ismAug 18 13:31
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:31
MinceRi call it "copying macos"Aug 18 13:31
DaemonFCsame thingAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCit's a diseaseAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCby any nameAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCNo, you can't have OTR in EmpathyAug 18 13:32
DaemonFCno you can't extend EmpathyAug 18 13:32
DaemonFCstfu!Aug 18 13:32
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:32
DaemonFCNo you can't point SoundConverter at stand-alone encoder libraries!Aug 18 13:32
DaemonFCYou WILL use Gstreamer's encoders, even when they are broken busted shit!Aug 18 13:33
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:33
DaemonFCand you will LIKE them!Aug 18 13:33
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:33
*MinceR points his command line at stand-alone encodersAug 18 13:34
MinceR:>Aug 18 13:34
DaemonFCI complained about mandatory Gstreamer-LAME at one point and all the problems the files it spits out haveAug 18 13:34
MinceR(flac and oggenc, rarely lame)Aug 18 13:34
amarsh04I like the multiplicity of audio file tagging tools in Debian, starting with the text based abcdeAug 18 13:34
DaemonFCand one of the SoundConverter developers says it's easier to force Gstreamer on youAug 18 13:34
MinceRi don't tagAug 18 13:34
DaemonFCthan it is to pass arguments to a standalone binaryAug 18 13:34
MinceRmany of my audio files can't even be tagged at all :>Aug 18 13:34
DaemonFCHow fucking stupid is that?Aug 18 13:34
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:35
MinceRmodules don't even have an author field :>Aug 18 13:35
amarsh04abcde just tags on converting cd's to audio filesAug 18 13:35
*MinceR is listening to: Tense - CrysalisAug 18 13:35
DaemonFCGstreamer's encoders with the exception of Ogg Vorbis are all brokenAug 18 13:35
DaemonFCGstreamer's LAME plugin is fucked up beyond recognitionAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCbut Gstreamer does make a great decoding engineAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCwith lots of useful plug-insAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCGstreamer obviously needs to stick to what it's good atAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCB-)Aug 18 13:36
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] Porn Company Embracing 'Pirates,' Planning To Monetize Experiences http://dlvr.it/3yYNjAug 18 13:37
TechrightsBotTitle: Porn Company Embracing 'Pirates,' Planning To Monetize Experiences | Techdirt .::. Size~: 27.32 KBAug 18 13:37
DaemonFCGstreamer basically solved the ugliest problems of XineAug 18 13:37
DaemonFCunfortunately, KDE distros still love Xine apparently even though it sucks, a lotAug 18 13:38
DaemonFCbut you can force it to use Gstreamer instead, hoorayAug 18 13:38
DaemonFCno KDE application that encodes or transcodes audio is crazy enough to try to use Gstreamer as their encoderAug 18 13:39
DaemonFCat least none that I've seenAug 18 13:39
DaemonFCThat's probably why Mandriva has one of the least fucking retarded KDE setups I have seenAug 18 13:39
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:39
DaemonFC /backwards compliment Aug 18 13:40
DaemonFCyou get the best of both worlds, Gstreamer backend by default, but nothing uses it to encode files withAug 18 13:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] The only output of #Hollywood worth watching these days are the animations. #pixar #dreamworksAug 18 13:43
DaemonFCAbout SCO: SCO is the Number 1 provider of frivolous UNIX patent lawsuits, is unable to support their own UNIX derivative even for existing customers, and the stock certificates are a viable alternative to discount toilet paper.Aug 18 13:43
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 13:44
amarsh04http://debian.org/News/weekly/2010/09/Aug 18 13:45
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I've found something that's actually stupider than homeopathy. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biofield_flower_therapyAug 18 13:50
TechrightsBotTitle: Biofield flower therapy - RationalWiki .::. Size~: 23.05 KBAug 18 13:50
amarsh04in reading the Debian project news, I noticed: http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/Aug 18 13:51
TechrightsBotTitle: Index of /cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware .::. Size~: 0.86 KBAug 18 13:51
MinceRhttp://www.ibiblio.org/harris/500milemail.htmlAug 18 13:52
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DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevelle#Christianity_controversyAug 18 14:13
TechrightsBotTitle: Chevelle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 122.35 KBAug 18 14:13
*DaemonFC is roflingAug 18 14:13
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:13
DaemonFC"We're recovering Catholics."Aug 18 14:13
DaemonFCheheAug 18 14:13
DaemonFChttp://www.evangelsociety.org/miller/chevelle2.htmlAug 18 14:15
TechrightsBotTitle: Christian Music Review - Chevelle  .::. Size~: 9.78 KBAug 18 14:15
DaemonFC"Well, the issue of what should be played on Christian radio continues to be unclear."Aug 18 14:15
DaemonFCHow about nothing?Aug 18 14:15
DaemonFCjust silence and static, that seems to be the only thing that most Christians could agree is not offensive Aug 18 14:15
FurnaceBoyaccccctually.Aug 18 14:16
FurnaceBoyi've heard a quite good podcast on a catholic radio station.Aug 18 14:16
DaemonFCyeah, one of them will claim the random static is Satan talking to youAug 18 14:16
DaemonFCso how about they just shut down the stations? :)Aug 18 14:16
ThistleWebthe mustardseedmedia.com podcast is pretty cool screencast about drupal, they're all about drupal to promote church stuff and have other faith related casts that he mentions too, but the drupal ones are all drupal other than a mention at the start and endAug 18 14:18
FurnaceBoythere's one area where Catholic interests are nominally humane and relevant, and that's in sustainability and frugality -- survival behaviours which are increasingly necessary: http://relevantradio.onlinecatholicstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=7049Aug 18 14:20
TechrightsBotTitle: Small is Still Beautiful: Economics as if Families Mattered [9781933859040] - $16.20 : Relevant Radio!, Online Catholic Store .::. Size~: 36.01 KBAug 18 14:20
DaemonFCso in other words, they're glad something enables them and that they don't have to pay to use itAug 18 14:20
DaemonFChoorayAug 18 14:20
DaemonFCmany people will gladly speak well about things that are useful and don't cost anythingAug 18 14:22
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: but you, on the other hand, have a lot to say about the useless and costly ;-)Aug 18 14:22
DaemonFCwell, if you slapped a price tag on Linux and licensed it per copy, and there was no way to avoid paying it, it would lose pretty much all its momentumAug 18 14:23
DaemonFCthe fact that it's cheap/free is basically the only reason that most places that have it use itAug 18 14:24
DaemonFCFOSS mostly catches on in areas where the proprietary version of that software type has cost a lot of moneyAug 18 14:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] RT @pietercolpaert RT @fquestie my students report: learning about Open Source leads to the discovery of useful tools AND to a more open ...Aug 18 14:25
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: here's the podcast. we can show that neighbourlee chap. http://www.spiritcatholicradio.com/interviews/Joseph%20Pearce%20Small%20Is%20Still%20Beautiful.mp3Aug 18 14:25
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FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: plus, it's also far superior in infrastructural roles.Aug 18 14:25
DaemonFCI didn't say everyone uses it because it's cheap or free of chargeAug 18 14:26
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: cost or no cost. support can come with it.Aug 18 14:26
DaemonFCbut a lot obviously doAug 18 14:26
FurnaceBoyanyway Oracle has dropped this ball and punctured it, set fire to it, and buried it under three feet of cement.Aug 18 14:26
DaemonFCif Photoshop was free of charge or you could go buy a copy for $5, the other freeware or FOSS photo editors would lose a lot of usersAug 18 14:26
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: yes. loss leader. MS uses this trick.Aug 18 14:26
MinceRactually many people believe that if you have to pay for it, it's magically betterAug 18 14:27
FurnaceBoytrue tooAug 18 14:27
MinceRthere were examples of that even on this channelAug 18 14:27
DaemonFCright, they see customers that are about to bail and offer Windows and other assorted software real cheapAug 18 14:27
MinceRamarsh04: thx for the reopAug 18 14:27
DaemonFConly for themAug 18 14:27
FurnaceBoy"How can you trust programmers who don't get paid?!?!!?!"Aug 18 14:27
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: also, Starter EditionsAug 18 14:27
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: "first hit is free"Aug 18 14:27
DaemonFCStarter Edition is basically a placeholder Aug 18 14:27
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: "and has less laundry detergent cutting it"Aug 18 14:28
DaemonFCyou fire the system up and the first thing you have to do is buy Home PremiumAug 18 14:28
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: "Future Microsoft customer"Aug 18 14:28
DaemonFCand that's the pointAug 18 14:28
DaemonFCit makes the price of a Windows 7 netbook look competitive with the Linux version of the same netbookAug 18 14:28
DaemonFCeven though Starter Edition is not useful Aug 18 14:28
oiaohmReally at the start putting a cost on Linux could have slowed it down.Aug 18 14:29
DaemonFCit's basically exploiting the users who will see that they can have Windows 7 without it costing more than LinuxAug 18 14:29
oiaohmThe tech point Linux is approcing in a lot of fields cost would make no difference at all.Aug 18 14:29
DaemonFCthen they unbox the system and fire it up and the first thing they have to do is pay the $78 for Home PremiumAug 18 14:29
FurnaceBoyyayAug 18 14:29
DaemonFCWindows 7: Useless EditionAug 18 14:30
DaemonFCfree on every netbookAug 18 14:30
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:30
oiaohmLinux for a long time has had major performance flaws.Aug 18 14:30
FurnaceBoy"And then, at night, the malware comes..."Aug 18 14:30
MinceRthey can't call it Useless EditionAug 18 14:30
MinceRhow would they tell editions apart?Aug 18 14:30
DaemonFCright, Office Starter is the same storyAug 18 14:30
FurnaceBoyMinceR: heheAug 18 14:30
DaemonFCyou get a subset of WordAug 18 14:30
DaemonFCand not a lot elseAug 18 14:30
oiaohmDaemonFC:  you are forgettingAug 18 14:31
DaemonFCit enables clueless idiots to spew out tons of docx filesAug 18 14:31
oiaohm1994 to 2006 MS has no reason to give away those cheep versions.Aug 18 14:31
DaemonFCeven if they can live with the horrible limitations on StarterAug 18 14:31
MinceRthat's probably the whole pointAug 18 14:31
oiaohmIts a sign of major MS stressAug 18 14:31
MinceRdoes office starter allow them to save into pre-ooxml doc or rtf?Aug 18 14:31
DaemonFCMinceR: I used to use Works a lotAug 18 14:32
DaemonFCbut then I moved to StarOfficeAug 18 14:32
DaemonFC(before OpenOffice existed)Aug 18 14:32
DaemonFCMinceR: It lets them save as doc, docx, rtf, or plain text I beleiveAug 18 14:32
DaemonFCI think export as HTML is not there in StarterAug 18 14:32
oiaohmAnd warped enough ODFAug 18 14:33
oiaohmYes office starter can export ODFAug 18 14:33
DaemonFCyeah, Office really fucks up any ODF you export from itAug 18 14:33
MinceRyes, m$ used to sell a contradiction in termsAug 18 14:33
MinceR"microsoft works"Aug 18 14:33
MinceRnow they only sell the other contradiction in termsAug 18 14:33
DaemonFCit's not ODFAug 18 14:33
MinceR"windows server"Aug 18 14:33
DaemonFCit's MSODFAug 18 14:33
DaemonFCthink MSHTMLAug 18 14:33
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:33
oiaohmOffice starter is the replacement to works lineAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCrightAug 18 14:34
oiaohmMS no longer could make money out the works line.Aug 18 14:34
MinceRi guessed soAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCbut yet they still license WorksAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCeven though it's no longer developedAug 18 14:34
oiaohmNo they don't DaemonFCAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCyeah they doAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCat least here they doAug 18 14:34
oiaohmIts a downgrade licence.Aug 18 14:34
DaemonFCnew PCs at Walmart have Works in some casesAug 18 14:34
DaemonFCand Works is still available in box setsAug 18 14:35
oiaohmWhat the.Aug 18 14:35
DaemonFCyeah, that's what I saidAug 18 14:35
oiaohmThey must have old stock.Aug 18 14:35
DaemonFCmaybeAug 18 14:35
MinceRthey must have suckers for customersAug 18 14:35
MinceR:>Aug 18 14:35
oiaohmBecause works is gone from the direct microsoft purchace listAug 18 14:35
DaemonFCThe reason I went for StarOffice is because the boxed set ended up costing me 1 centAug 18 14:35
oiaohmAnd has been gone for 8 months now.  DaemonFCAug 18 14:36
DaemonFCdue to an inventory computer fuckupAug 18 14:36
DaemonFCand MS Office was sitting there next to it for like $200Aug 18 14:36
FurnaceBoyso let's talk about document format lock-inAug 18 14:36
DaemonFCI have many things that I could use that $199.99 onAug 18 14:36
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:36
FurnaceBoyit's not just about sticker costAug 18 14:37
DaemonFCMS Office was not one of thoseAug 18 14:37
oiaohmOnly way to get works direct from MS is to purchase MS Office PRO and downgrade it to works.  DaemonFCAug 18 14:37
DaemonFCWho the FUCK would do THAT!?Aug 18 14:37
DaemonFClolAug 18 14:37
MinceRyou wouldn't have got m$ office for $199.99 ;)Aug 18 14:37
oiaohmI work in a IT business that does not hold stock of software we order on demard.Aug 18 14:37
oiaohmSometimes very large orders.Aug 18 14:38
DaemonFCMinceR: StarOffice could save to docAug 18 14:38
DaemonFCthat was good enough for meAug 18 14:38
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:38
oiaohmI got my first StarOffice for free.Aug 18 14:38
oiaohmOff a PC mag.Aug 18 14:38
DaemonFChttp://www.betanews.com/article/Sun-Details-StarOffice-6/999122156Aug 18 14:39
TechrightsBotTitle: Sun Details StarOffice 6 | Betanews .::. Size~: 67.6 KBAug 18 14:39
DaemonFCThat was teh version I boughtAug 18 14:39
DaemonFC*theAug 18 14:39
DaemonFCno wait, I had 5.2Aug 18 14:40
DaemonFCwhat am I thinkingAug 18 14:40
oiaohmI got 5.2 freeAug 18 14:40
DaemonFCcause it was sitting next to Office '97Aug 18 14:40
DaemonFCso it must have been Star 5.2Aug 18 14:40
oiaohmI had Office 97 upgrade.Aug 18 14:40
DaemonFCplus Star didn't hose down my Windows 95 with Internet ExplorerAug 18 14:41
DaemonFCMS Office had mandatory IEAug 18 14:41
DaemonFC:PAug 18 14:41
oiaohmVery warped one of the programs required to install Office 97 was made by a thrid party that they gave away for free.Aug 18 14:41
DaemonFCI was doing everything I could to keep IE off my systemAug 18 14:41
oiaohmSo you would go in to buy Office97 and the shops would give you a upgrade + a 2 dollar disk with the program you had to install first.Aug 18 14:42
FurnaceBoyi could give yuou some advice, DaemonFC Aug 18 14:42
FurnaceBoystart with keeping Windoz off itAug 18 14:42
DaemonFCOutlook 95 didn't need IEAug 18 14:42
DaemonFCOutlook '97 didAug 18 14:42
DaemonFCthough I understand you could trick it into not installing IEAug 18 14:42
*jono has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)Aug 18 14:42
DaemonFCthe only difference is that clicking on Outlook Today will crash it if IE isn't thereAug 18 14:42
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 14:43
MinceRclassic m$ error handlingAug 18 14:43
*DaemonFC replaces MinceR's system fonts with TahomaAug 18 14:43
DaemonFC:PAug 18 14:43
*MinceR denies accessAug 18 14:43
*DaemonFC uses the 7 year old Linux bugAug 18 14:44
DaemonFCheheAug 18 14:44
DaemonFCpwnageAug 18 14:44
*MinceR is immune to the 7 year old Linux bugAug 18 14:44
DaemonFCthat one anywayAug 18 14:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[techdirt] ACTA Negotiators Don't Seem To Know Or Care About What They're Negotiating http://dlvr.it/3yfqJAug 18 14:45
TechrightsBotTitle: ACTA Negotiators Don't Seem To Know Or Care About What They're Negotiating | Techdirt .::. Size~: 27.02 KBAug 18 14:45
DaemonFChttp://toastytech.com/evil/ieeeee.gifAug 18 14:46
TechrightsBotTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/gif type .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 18 14:46
DaemonFCMinceR's desktopAug 18 14:46
DaemonFC:PAug 18 14:46
MinceRwrongAug 18 14:46
*MinceR is not Nathan LinebackAug 18 14:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Please do not use the term - "ipad alternatives". Android tablets are far superior then ipads. just use "smartpads" #smartpads #androidAug 18 15:04
DaemonFChehAug 18 15:08
DaemonFCthey invented the tablet just as much as they invented the MP3 playerAug 18 15:08
DaemonFCright?Aug 18 15:08
FurnaceBoy...Aug 18 15:08
DaemonFCnot like those existed for 3-4 years before Crapple caught onAug 18 15:08
DaemonFCand gave them to moronsAug 18 15:08
MinceRtablet pcs have been around for agesAug 18 15:09
FurnaceBoyyes -- for example, NewtonAug 18 15:09
MinceReven the first ThinkPad was a tablet PCAug 18 15:09
MinceRlol, newtonAug 18 15:09
FurnaceBoydid you use one, when it came out?Aug 18 15:09
*DaemonFC sends MinceR a Newton, complete with Al GoreAug 18 15:09
DaemonFC:DAug 18 15:09
MinceRnopeAug 18 15:10
DaemonFCThe Newton was Apple's only product ever that wasn't entirely dumbed downAug 18 15:10
DaemonFCprobably why it floppedAug 18 15:10
DaemonFCcultists couldn't figure it outAug 18 15:10
DaemonFCa few years later they come out with the ipod which had one button and a wheel, and it flew off the shelvesAug 18 15:11
MinceR"There is however an extensive history of pen computing that predates the Newton" >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_NewtonAug 18 15:11
TechrightsBotTitle: Newton (platform) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 103.75 KBAug 18 15:11
*FurnaceBoy did. blew my mind. i concluded all computing would eventually follow that paradigmAug 18 15:11
MinceRdid you honestly believe that handwriting is an efficient way of text entry? :>Aug 18 15:12
FurnaceBoythat's not fundamental to the newton conceptAug 18 15:12
DaemonFCno, but it workedAug 18 15:12
*FurnaceBoy owns newtons with keyboardsAug 18 15:12
FurnaceBoyand yes, it did work.Aug 18 15:12
DaemonFCVista voice recognition didn'tAug 18 15:12
DaemonFCand they still sold a lot of copies of thatAug 18 15:12
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:12
*MinceR is glad he doesn't have to use handwriting most of the time anymoreAug 18 15:12
DaemonFCsuperior technology almost never winsAug 18 15:13
DaemonFCwhy? because 90% of the human population are a bunch of mental defectivesAug 18 15:14
DaemonFCwhen you slap one button on it and a wheel, they come closer because it's down to their levelAug 18 15:14
FurnaceBoySOMEBODY NEEDS A HUGAug 18 15:14
DaemonFCthe ipod is the most condescending pile of shit I've ever seenAug 18 15:14
FurnaceBoyappliance, DaemonFC Aug 18 15:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] Two free browser add-ins to protect you against Google data gathering by @pgralla http://bit.ly/a5AQqOAug 18 15:15
TechrightsBotTitle: Two free browser add-ins to protect you against Google data gathering - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 60.66 KBAug 18 15:15
MinceReverything from crApple ever since the lisa is a condescending pile of shitAug 18 15:15
DaemonFCit even ranks higher on my condescending pile of shit-list than GNOMEAug 18 15:15
FurnaceBoya microwave or washing machine with a CLI would be not usefulAug 18 15:15
MinceRgnome is getting thereAug 18 15:15
MinceRFurnaceBoy: yes it wouldAug 18 15:15
FurnaceBoyMinceR: ever used a Lisa?Aug 18 15:15
MinceRno, but i know what it didAug 18 15:15
MinceRand what it wasAug 18 15:15
*FurnaceBoy owns a coupleAug 18 15:15
MinceRwell, congratulationsAug 18 15:15
*MinceR didn't blow his money on overpriced, useless crapAug 18 15:16
FurnaceBoywhy do you say the Lisa is not condescending, compared to a Mac?Aug 18 15:16
MinceRi don't say thatAug 18 15:16
FurnaceBoyoh. ok, so you include the Lisa.Aug 18 15:16
MinceRit's just as condescending as the macAug 18 15:16
FurnaceBoyok, no problem , just clearing that upAug 18 15:16
MinceRafaik the crApple II was something resembling a computer at the very leastAug 18 15:16
MinceRthe crApple III was a computer-shaped pile of shitAug 18 15:16
MinceRthat melted itself, setting a nice precedent for their historyAug 18 15:16
FurnaceBoydesign your perfect computer.Aug 18 15:16
FurnaceBoywhere does the NeXT workstation lie on this scale?Aug 18 15:17
MinceRsomething that maybe tried to be unix to some extentAug 18 15:17
DaemonFCMinceR: Who needs a cooling fan?Aug 18 15:17
FurnaceBoyrefresher: megapixel, dsp, Mach, Display PostScriptAug 18 15:17
DaemonFCJust slap it and reset the pwoer switch now and thenAug 18 15:17
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:17
MinceRmostly it seems to be a distorted macos, thoughAug 18 15:17
FurnaceBoyMinceR: interesting. it has no antecedents in MacOS.Aug 18 15:17
MinceRglobal menu, objc, weird shit everywhereAug 18 15:17
MinceRiirc the menu handling was somewhat similarAug 18 15:18
MinceRbut at least nextstep did have some important innovations afaictAug 18 15:18
FurnaceBoysure didAug 18 15:18
MinceRat least their scrollbars are more usable than the common onesAug 18 15:18
MinceRbut next is not crAppleAug 18 15:18
FurnaceBoynot until they bought it, no.Aug 18 15:18
DaemonFCMinceR: Slap it and flip the power switch was actually the most informative Crapple Technical Service Bulletin I've ever seenAug 18 15:18
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:19
MinceRosx is, and it's the same shit as macos, only on top of ripped off free softwareAug 18 15:19
MinceRDaemonFC: :>Aug 18 15:19
MinceRi wonder if the "multitasking" in lisa was the same hack as MultiFinderAug 18 15:19
MinceRor relatedAug 18 15:20
FurnaceBoycooperativeAug 18 15:20
MinceRright, with an ugly GUI hackAug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoyin reality there wasn't a lot of pressure for Lisa to multitask, it had only 1MBAug 18 15:21
DaemonFC"You paid $2,000 for a highly sophisticated computer that freezes up and loses everything you were working on about once every hour or two, now slap that bitch like it owes you money! No refunds!"Aug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoybut it did have an MMUAug 18 15:21
MinceRit was a toy designed for idiots built on workstation hardwareAug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoyMinceR: believe me, in the 80s Mac users wanted UNIX.Aug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoyMinceR: but it wasn't thereAug 18 15:21
amarsh04lisa was aud$10,000 as far as I rememberAug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoyMinceR: they promised memory protection in SYstem 7 ... deadline 1991Aug 18 15:21
MinceRso in the 80s mac users actually realized how condescending the system they used was?Aug 18 15:21
FurnaceBoyof course it was never deliveredAug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoyMinceR: yes, I lusted after NeXT at the time.Aug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoyI wanted UNIX.Aug 18 15:22
MinceRthe Taligent article on WP says the users said they didn't want a new OSAug 18 15:22
MinceRnow did you want unix or next? :>Aug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoythey needed backwards compat, of course.Aug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoyMinceR: both were out of financial reach at the time.Aug 18 15:22
MinceRthat doesn't make them identicalAug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoyeh, did I say they were?Aug 18 15:22
*tessier__ (~treed@mail.copilotco.com) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 15:22
FurnaceBoyNeXT or another UNIX workstation would have been quite satisfactory.Aug 18 15:23
FurnaceBoyI should have tried harder to get A/UXAug 18 15:23
oiaohmNext and Beos  Both had intersting features.Aug 18 15:23
FurnaceBoysuperfast blitting among themAug 18 15:23
MinceRinteresting features do not make a good OS by themselves :>Aug 18 15:23
FurnaceBoymy Cube blits not noticeably slower than my G5Aug 18 15:24
oiaohmThe world of common OS's these days is way more booring.Aug 18 15:24
MinceRespecially if the developers neglect the basicsAug 18 15:24
*DaemonFC noticed that some of his Windows Live contacts were on XBOX Live so he started whacking the "Offline/Busy/Available/Away" buttons to block their screen and get them killed.Aug 18 15:24
DaemonFCthey hate it when you do thatAug 18 15:24
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:24
oiaohmBeOS really did not neglect the basics.Aug 18 15:24
oiaohmJust never got driver support.Aug 18 15:24
MinceRit did neglect multiuserAug 18 15:24
MinceRit did neglect access controlAug 18 15:25
FurnaceBoy:)Aug 18 15:25
MinceRit did neglect securityAug 18 15:25
FurnaceBoycompared to Multics, even UNIX does Aug 18 15:25
FurnaceBoy:)Aug 18 15:25
MinceRand if you want to see how utterly painful it can be to add multiuser afterwards, just look at winblowsAug 18 15:25
*OsamaK (~Osama@fsf/member/osamak) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 15:25
MinceRand all the applications that put their setting files under progra~1Aug 18 15:25
*tessier__ has quit (Client Quit)Aug 18 15:26
MinceRand all the applications that just refuse to work if you're running them as an unprivileged userAug 18 15:26
oiaohmReally with beos it would not have been that bad to port multi user in.Aug 18 15:26
oiaohmIt had followed a posix model.  MinceRAug 18 15:26
oiaohmUser settings all of them in the home directory MinceRAug 18 15:26
MinceRthat won't do much if access control doesn't force applications to do the same.Aug 18 15:26
oiaohmLater forms of BeOS does have access controllsAug 18 15:27
MinceRthe example of winblows shows that applications need walls around them if they're to be well-behavedAug 18 15:27
oiaohmThe design was tollerent and not littered with MS.Aug 18 15:27
oiaohmMess.Aug 18 15:27
DaemonFCMinceR: UAC and all of a sudden everything keeps pinging you because it can't operate as the userAug 18 15:27
DaemonFCthat was a multi-year clusterfuckAug 18 15:28
DaemonFC:DAug 18 15:28
MinceRUAC is yet another can of wormsAug 18 15:28
oiaohmReally not exactly.Aug 18 15:28
MinceRthat's m$ seeing sudo and suddenly wanting to copy it, then proceeding to copy it as they copy things usuallyAug 18 15:28
oiaohmBeos was still using root and general user model.Aug 18 15:28
MinceRalso trying to deal with the mess they created by lagging with multiuser :>Aug 18 15:28
MinceRoiaohm: how?Aug 18 15:28
MinceRit was a singleuser systemAug 18 15:28
oiaohmThey had not give that model up.Aug 18 15:28
MinceRthey said they're going to change itAug 18 15:29
MinceRthen BeOS diedAug 18 15:29
oiaohmIt did not 100 percent die.Aug 18 15:30
DaemonFCWindows NT has always been multi-userAug 18 15:30
MinceRyes, it's saying "braaaaaains" nowAug 18 15:30
MinceR:>Aug 18 15:30
DaemonFCbut it didn't force apps to work in that configureationAug 18 15:30
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:30
DaemonFC*configurationAug 18 15:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: why didn't it crush everything before it, as promised?Aug 18 15:30
DaemonFCso a lot of them didn't botherAug 18 15:30
MinceRDaemonFC: so from this viewpoint it hasn't always been multiuserAug 18 15:31
MinceRit had the non-NT winblows legacy via appsAug 18 15:31
MinceRand by emulating that behaviorAug 18 15:31
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy: The fundamentals of NT make a lot of sense, but not enforcing sane behavior from the beginning is what tanked themAug 18 15:31
MinceRthey also put a lot of insane stuff in the designAug 18 15:31
DaemonFCalternate data streamsAug 18 15:32
DaemonFC:PAug 18 15:32
DaemonFCMac compatibility flubAug 18 15:32
DaemonFC:PAug 18 15:32
DaemonFCenables viruses to hide in an innocent looking file easierAug 18 15:32
DaemonFCserves no other real purpose on WindowsAug 18 15:32
MinceRthere's another purposeAug 18 15:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[sjvn] RT @geekygirldawn: Finally finished my blog post about all of the various MeeGo activities at LinuxCon last week http://bit.ly/dybAzCAug 18 15:34
TechrightsBotTitle: LinuxCon and MeeGo Review | MeeGo .::. Size~: 20.33 KBAug 18 15:34
MinceRit breaks file copying tools :>Aug 18 15:34
MinceRand yet another: one more (useless) tick on a feature listAug 18 15:34
*Python132O has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)Aug 18 15:36
*Python1320 (Python1320@unaffiliated/python1320) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 15:37
*DaemonFC installs RealPlayer for MinceRAug 18 15:37
DaemonFC:)Aug 18 15:37
MinceRyou keep forgetting you're not root hereAug 18 15:37
MinceRthis is not winblows :>Aug 18 15:37
*DaemonFC finds a bug that gets him rootAug 18 15:38
DaemonFCthere's only about enough of thoseAug 18 15:38
MinceRnot hereAug 18 15:38
MinceRplus you don't get any sort of shell at allAug 18 15:38
FurnaceBoyrubbish:Aug 18 15:39
FurnaceBoy$Aug 18 15:39
FurnaceBoy-*- message from FALKEN: You have one shell. Use it wisely. *-*Aug 18 15:39
FurnaceBoy$Aug 18 15:39
MinceRdaemonfc@honeypot0234 $Aug 18 15:39
FurnaceBoyheck now what.Aug 18 15:40
FurnaceBoy$Aug 18 15:40
DaemonFChttp://www.pcworld.com/article/130638-2/the_20_most_annoying_tech_products.htmlAug 18 15:42
TechrightsBotTitle: The 20 Most Annoying Tech Products - PCWorld .::. Size~: 73.19 KBAug 18 15:42
MinceRwhat year is this article from?Aug 18 15:46
DaemonFC2007Aug 18 15:47
*OsamaK has quit (Read error: No route to host)Aug 18 15:47
MinceRwhere's vista then?Aug 18 15:48
MinceRright, idg couldn't afford to say anything bad about thatAug 18 15:48
MinceRoh, found itAug 18 15:49
DaemonFC#7Aug 18 15:49
DaemonFCerrr, 8Aug 18 15:49
DaemonFCI found Vista more annoying than Windows MeAug 18 15:50
DaemonFC:PAug 18 15:51
*OsamaK (~Osama@fsf/member/osamak) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 15:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[wikileaks] Colombia Uni visualizes the Afghan war http://nyti.ms/9Dqn3VAug 18 15:55
TechrightsBotTitle: Visualizing the Wikileaks War Logs - Bits Blog - NYTimes.com .::. Size~: 70.67 KBAug 18 15:55
MinceR1. Force us to reboot our systems any time we install or uninstall your product.Aug 18 15:56
MinceR4. Pop up little reminders for things we don't want to do.Aug 18 15:56
MinceRwinblows, pretty much any version? :>Aug 18 15:57
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] RT @smaffulli I think it's clear where to stand regarding Net Neutrality issue: on the opposite side of those tea+substances drinking pa ...Aug 18 15:57
oiaohmhttp://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/bizarre_cathedral_78Aug 18 15:58
TechrightsBotTitle: The Bizarre Cathedral - 78  .::. Size~: 31.25 KBAug 18 15:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[wikileaks] Pentagon: Our Bad, We DID Talk to WikiLeaks http://bit.ly/drEBcqAug 18 15:58
TechrightsBotTitle: DOD: Our Bad, We DID Talk to WikiLeaks | Mother Jones .::. Size~: 86.9 KBAug 18 15:58

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