Join us now at the IRC channel.
| schestowitz | http://tinyogg.com/files/cjzrj.ogv | Sep 21 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Not a web page! Aborting application/ogg type .::. Size~: 0 KB | Sep 21 00:00 |
| schestowitz | Hehe | Sep 21 00:01 |
| schestowitz | http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt138104.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+asperger+%28*Wrong+Planet+-+Autism+Forums*%29 | Sep 21 00:16 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Microsoft is trying to make Linux illegal again - Computers, Math, Science, and Technology .::. Size~: 76.39 KB | Sep 21 00:16 |
| schestowitz | "I read on techrights.org that Microsoft is making bids to buy out Novell, which owns the Unix source code." | Sep 21 00:16 |
| FurnaceBoy | whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | Sep 21 00:16 |
| FurnaceBoy | oh wait | Sep 21 00:17 |
| FurnaceBoy | "owns the unix source code" is very strange phrasing. | Sep 21 00:17 |
| FurnaceBoy | it's been shown that Novell has no claim on Linux. | Sep 21 00:17 |
| FurnaceBoy | this is, therefore, A-grade FUD | Sep 21 00:17 |
| FurnaceBoy | Novell doesn't own the "source code" to any current version of unix | Sep 21 00:18 |
| FurnaceBoy | afaics | Sep 21 00:18 |
| FurnaceBoy | it may be party to some licenses to proprietary unix | Sep 21 00:18 |
| FurnaceBoy | but none of that impacts Linux, as we learned through the last 7 gruelling years of SCO | Sep 21 00:18 |
| schestowitz | MSware wants Linux | Sep 21 00:27 |
| schestowitz | Maritz and his gang | Sep 21 00:27 |
| schestowitz | http://digg.com/news/technology/paul_allen_files_patent_lawsuits_against_entire_web_except_microsoft "Everything on the front page is from like 5 companies." | Sep 21 00:30 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Digg - Paul Allen Files Patent Lawsuits Against Entire Web ... Except Microsoft .::. Size~: 19.48 KB | Sep 21 00:30 |
| schestowitz | "Welcome to the New Digg." | Sep 21 00:30 |
| schestowitz | This kind of sucks | Sep 21 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Appledome | Sep 21 00:30 |
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| scientes | hey schestowitz | Sep 21 06:23 |
| scientes | lets talk here | Sep 21 06:25 |
| scientes | i went through alot of shit | Sep 21 06:25 |
| scientes | thanks for kinda standing up for me when you kinda saw where i was going way back | Sep 21 06:25 |
| scientes | what month was that? | Sep 21 06:25 |
| scientes | febuary? | Sep 21 06:26 |
| scientes | http://www.gutenberg.org/files/30723/30723-h/30723-h.htm | Sep 21 06:26 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: The Project Gutenberg eBook of Fathers and Children, by Ivan Sergeevich Turgenev .::. Size~: 452.58 KB | Sep 21 06:26 |
| scientes | http://www.angelfire.com/hi/TheSeer/puer.html | Sep 21 06:26 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Puer Aeternus, the eternal boy .::. Size~: 18.28 KB | Sep 21 06:26 |
| scientes | how is your life going? | Sep 21 06:27 |
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| schestowitz | Great news: | Sep 21 11:57 |
| schestowitz | My brother, who has just graduated, got a job Java programming | Sep 21 11:58 |
| oiaohm | I just had todo a job in java schestowitz | Sep 21 11:59 |
| oiaohm | What timing. | Sep 21 11:59 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 21 12:00 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, it's good.... my two siblings both are Java programmers | Sep 21 12:00 |
| schestowitz | Whereas I'm a postdoc | Sep 21 12:00 |
| oiaohm | Really I am looking at doing something kinda insane. | Sep 21 12:19 |
| oiaohm | A windows network keyextractor and inv tool. | Sep 21 12:19 |
| oiaohm | Done in java | Sep 21 12:20 |
| schestowitz | What do you think will come out of the Oracle case? | Sep 21 12:35 |
| oiaohm | To me nothing either way. | Sep 21 12:36 |
| oiaohm | I use openjdk, gcj and classpath and proper Oracle provided java | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | All 3 are legally above board. schestowitz | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Google loses I loss nothing. | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Google wins I gain nothing. | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | In one way Google should lose. They tried todo everything to avoid having there platform follow standards. | Sep 21 12:38 |
| schestowitz | Yes, I realise this too | Sep 21 12:54 |
| schestowitz | But it helps Microsoft | Sep 21 12:54 |
| schestowitz | Which in terns harms software freedom | Sep 21 12:54 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, scientes | Sep 21 13:15 |
| schestowitz | Sorry I missed you here yesterday | Sep 21 13:15 |
| schestowitz | I was labouring on a Gates post (very long one) and was not paying attention) | Sep 21 13:16 |
| schestowitz | Gotta go now for a bit... | Sep 21 13:16 |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Sep 21 13:49:25 2010 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Sep 21 14:24:31 2010 | ||
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell-social | Sep 21 14:24 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell-social is: TechRights.org | Channel #boycottnovell-social for http://TechRights.org | Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software :: please also join channels #techrights and #boycottnovell | Sep 21 14:24 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell-social set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Fri May 7 00:18:26 2010 | Sep 21 14:24 | |
| *schestowitz has joined #boycottnovell-social | Sep 21 14:26 | |
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| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: guess u already saw http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/09/21/145254/The-Real-Truth-About-Oracles-new-Kernel | Sep 21 16:15 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Slashdot Linux Story | The Real Truth About Oracle's "new" Kernel .::. Size~: 73.31 KB | Sep 21 16:15 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Sep 21 16:29 | |
| schestowitz | I haven't seen it | Sep 21 16:45 |
| schestowitz | I know abouit the kernel | Sep 21 16:45 |
| schestowitz | Maybe just some marketing thing | Sep 21 16:45 |
| schestowitz | Like Unbreakable Linux was... | Sep 21 16:45 |
| schestowitz | Branding... big red 0 | Sep 21 16:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | yes | Sep 21 16:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | the linked article clarifies it | Sep 21 16:46 |
| schestowitz | I'll look when I'm done posting | Sep 21 17:00 |
| scientes | anyways schestowitz | Sep 21 17:30 |
| scientes | any advice? | Sep 21 17:30 |
| scientes | how is your life goin? | Sep 21 17:30 |
| scientes | i need to reboot | Sep 21 17:30 |
| schestowitz | WHat field? | Sep 21 17:31 |
| schestowitz | My brother screwed me up today | Sep 21 17:32 |
| schestowitz | Out of excitement | Sep 21 17:32 |
| schestowitz | That he got a job he really wanted | Sep 21 17:32 |
| schestowitz | Did you see Greenspan's remark? | Sep 21 17:35 |
| schestowitz | “We’re all freaking doomed.”, says Alan Greenspan. http://ur1.ca/1pb13 | Sep 21 17:35 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Greenspan@CFR Freaking Doomed « Sköne Oke .::. Size~: 20.68 KB | Sep 21 17:35 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: he must have known that for decades | Sep 21 17:37 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: the rest of us did | Sep 21 17:37 |
| schestowitz | Yeah | Sep 21 17:40 |
| schestowitz | But he was doing his job | Sep 21 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Now he's retired, I think | Sep 21 17:40 |
| schestowitz | They still call him on TV sometimes, assuming he can control the script | Sep 21 17:40 |
| MinceR | http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/dgurm/cop_drives_126_mph_while_texting_kills_2_teen/ | Sep 21 18:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Cop drives 126 MPH while texting, kills 2 teen girls, lies to cover it up, gets probation. Now he wants workman's compensation for his injuries. : politics .::. Size~: 343.63 KB | Sep 21 18:05 |
| FurnaceBoy | wow. | Sep 21 18:06 |
| schestowitz | scientes: have you protested? | Sep 21 18:25 |
| schestowitz | BTW, Warren breaks her sort of promise | Sep 21 18:25 |
| schestowitz | She goes to work in the dirty world of politic after all | Sep 21 18:25 |
| schestowitz | *politics | Sep 21 18:25 |
| scientes | no | Sep 21 18:26 |
| scientes | its family | Sep 21 18:26 |
| scientes | my brother got really pissed at me | Sep 21 18:26 |
| scientes | but i think, hopefully, it will be for the better | Sep 21 18:26 |
| scientes | it was always the wrong type of relationship with bad expectations | Sep 21 18:26 |
| scientes | but I am quite afraid both my mother and brother will sick further into their co-dependant relationship | Sep 21 18:27 |
| scientes | same with my brother and his wife | Sep 21 18:27 |
| scientes | meh, Warren was always a bit naieve | Sep 21 18:27 |
| scientes | never mentions energy or oil, thats why they like her IMHO, number nerd | Sep 21 18:28 |
| FurnaceBoy | heh | Sep 21 18:28 |
| FurnaceBoy | right | Sep 21 18:28 |
| scientes | so schestowitz you still at manchester? | Sep 21 18:28 |
| schestowitz | [18:27] <scientes> meh, Warren was always a bit naieve | Sep 21 18:29 |
| schestowitz | She's calm-talking | Sep 21 18:29 |
| schestowitz | And I think women like her | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | schestowitz, yes, like Lessig | Sep 21 18:29 |
| schestowitz | The Clinton type | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | not to diminish Lessig's accomplishments | Sep 21 18:29 |
| schestowitz | I don't like Lessig so much | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | meh, not at all like Clinton | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | i like CC | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | i think it is productive | Sep 21 18:29 |
| schestowitz | he's not responsive, e.g. when I ask him to consider using ogg | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | but it did a lot of funky stuff | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | i don't like anything he has done sense | Sep 21 18:29 |
| scientes | and he is so friggen naieve | Sep 21 18:30 |
| schestowitz | Lessig seems like somewhat of a charlatan | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | ^^^^ | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | anyways, what should i do | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | dormatory lifestyle | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | academic monastic life... | Sep 21 18:30 |
| schestowitz | I don't know enough | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | is it viable? | Sep 21 18:30 |
| schestowitz | It's hard to advise | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | or neo-tribalism | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | there was this club her at WWU | Sep 21 18:30 |
| schestowitz | But for me, well... I do academia | Sep 21 18:30 |
| schestowitz | And Techrights | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | permaculture and eco-villiages are the buzzwords | Sep 21 18:30 |
| scientes | I want something with outdoors, and woodworking and such | Sep 21 18:31 |
| schestowitz | neo-tribalism and anarchism seem to gain traction in the south | Sep 21 18:31 |
| scientes | I spent way to much time on the computer | Sep 21 18:31 |
| scientes | I need something really collegial | Sep 21 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Taiwan :-) | Sep 21 18:31 |
| scientes | no | Sep 21 18:31 |
| schestowitz | 15 hours a day... | Sep 21 18:31 |
| scientes | new zealand? | Sep 21 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Assembling | Sep 21 18:31 |
| scientes | I should have realized my problems wouldn't fix themselves 4 years ago | Sep 21 18:32 |
| schestowitz | NZ has immigration policies that might be tough | Sep 21 18:32 |
| schestowitz | A colleague of mine moved there | Sep 21 18:32 |
| schestowitz | he married a former Muslim in Manchester and her family didn't take it well | Sep 21 18:32 |
| schestowitz | So they went as far as possible so to speak | Sep 21 18:32 |
| FurnaceBoy | ha | Sep 21 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Both work at Massey Uni. there | Sep 21 18:32 |
| FurnaceBoy | that is certainly far. | Sep 21 18:33 |
| FurnaceBoy | did they threaten him/her? | Sep 21 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Postdocs/lecturers | Sep 21 18:33 |
| schestowitz | FurnaceBoy: I think | Sep 21 18:33 |
| FurnaceBoy | hm | Sep 21 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Maybe not physically | Sep 21 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Apostasy makes strong religions | Sep 21 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Religions that spread well encourage many kids to be made and retaliation/death for defection/noncompliance | Sep 21 18:34 |
| FurnaceBoy | tribalism | Sep 21 18:34 |
| FurnaceBoy | hundreds/thousands of years ago, tribes could not afford defections | Sep 21 18:35 |
| scientes | my family wont take to anything | Sep 21 18:35 |
| FurnaceBoy | it's an obsolete mechanism | Sep 21 18:35 |
| FurnaceBoy | irrelevant | Sep 21 18:35 |
| scientes | my parents have no pride | Sep 21 18:35 |
| FurnaceBoy | un-modern | Sep 21 18:35 |
| scientes | and my mother is a spoiled brat | Sep 21 18:35 |
| FurnaceBoy | like handguns | Sep 21 18:35 |
| scientes | there are three types of male rite-of-passages | Sep 21 18:36 |
| scientes | 1. leave, make a name for yourself, proove yourself, come back accepting established order | Sep 21 18:37 |
| scientes | 2. get tribe to dishonour your pride, successfuly take your acumen and join another tribe | Sep 21 18:37 |
| scientes | 3. take a female with you and start a new tribe | Sep 21 18:37 |
| scientes | and this happens at 16-20 | Sep 21 18:38 |
| scientes | thats the ambitious | Sep 21 18:38 |
| scientes | everything else is either vainity (red cars, big houses--masculine), hermitage, or matriarchial (creating feelings of nesting, class), and then the very weak patriarchy 1st son liniage, which only really works with landed gentry IMHO | Sep 21 18:40 |
| scientes | anyways what do you think? | Sep 21 18:40 |
| FurnaceBoy | well, tribalism manifests in many ways | Sep 21 18:40 |
| FurnaceBoy | one thing i've discussed recently is marks, like tattoos and circumcision | Sep 21 18:40 |
| FurnaceBoy | those are supposed to be lifetime binding, and indelible | Sep 21 18:40 |
| scientes | http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html | Sep 21 18:40 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: ClubOrlov: The Five Stages of Collapse .::. Size~: 192.38 KB | Sep 21 18:40 |
| FurnaceBoy | another is demonisation of non-tribe members | Sep 21 18:41 |
| scientes | tribalism is the most important part | Sep 21 18:41 |
| FurnaceBoy | which we see all the time in the USA | Sep 21 18:41 |
| scientes | meh, thats usually staged | Sep 21 18:41 |
| FurnaceBoy | it's all incredibly primitive and irrelevant ---- like a coelacanth | Sep 21 18:41 |
| scientes | circus | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | well, it's a manifestation of tribalism. meant to reinforce us-vs-them | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | tribes have always done this | Sep 21 18:42 |
| scientes | propagandizers that understand those urges | Sep 21 18:42 |
| scientes | just like spectator sports and sportscasters | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | it underpins activities like war, pillage | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | you have to define an 'other' | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | so it's a constant barrage of propaganda, yes | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | 'not like us' | Sep 21 18:42 |
| FurnaceBoy | 'inferior | Sep 21 18:42 |
| scientes | schestowitz, | Sep 21 18:43 |
| *schestowitz reads log | Sep 21 18:44 | |
| scientes | schestowitz, it is silly for me to be so arrogent with this puer mother liver here? | Sep 21 18:44 |
| schestowitz | [18:37] <scientes> 3. take a female with you and start a new tribe | Sep 21 18:44 |
| schestowitz | We have too many tribes already | Sep 21 18:44 |
| schestowitz | The thing is acknowledgement from peer/family | Sep 21 18:44 |
| scientes | nuclear families | Sep 21 18:44 |
| schestowitz | it's bad when the family cannot credit the member | Sep 21 18:44 |
| schestowitz | I see it everywhere | Sep 21 18:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: yeah but look at how that often happens | Sep 21 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Parents not interested in what their kids do | Sep 21 18:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: it happens when they redefine themselves | Sep 21 18:45 |
| scientes | i think new tribe is the primary urge of males | Sep 21 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Unless it's grandchildren or money | Sep 21 18:45 |
| scientes | and their #1 failing | Sep 21 18:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | the problem isn't new tribes, it's the established ones exercising obsolete, un-modern behaviours | Sep 21 18:45 |
| scientes | and mothers #1 short-sightedness | Sep 21 18:45 |
| scientes | product of abundant resources | Sep 21 18:45 |
| scientes | <schestowitz> Parents not interested in what their kids do | Sep 21 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Why care what the family says? | Sep 21 18:46 |
| FurnaceBoy | +1 | Sep 21 18:46 |
| scientes | not even grandchildren in my family | Sep 21 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Unless it impedes your actions? | Sep 21 18:46 |
| scientes | _It does_ | Sep 21 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Ah | Sep 21 18:46 |
| scientes | mother who was violent, but then was scared | Sep 21 18:46 |
| FurnaceBoy | MinceR: | Sep 21 18:47 |
| FurnaceBoy | http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=Matt+Mitchell+trooper | Sep 21 18:47 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Matt Mitchell trooper - Google News .::. Size~: 57.07 KB | Sep 21 18:47 |
| scientes | tell you not to hang out with a certain male, but when she goes to that house adresses him as the man of the house instead of the mother | Sep 21 18:47 |
| scientes | while being spoiled in thinking she has to be the woman of the house | Sep 21 18:47 |
| scientes | its very hard for a boy to grow up if he isn't pushed out in some fashion | Sep 21 18:47 |
| scientes | my brother fell into the trap of supporting her | Sep 21 18:48 |
| scientes | and she has never felt a bit of remorse that he starved on the streets | Sep 21 18:48 |
| scientes | and now makes bank | Sep 21 18:48 |
| scientes | so i've always had this great anger against her | Sep 21 18:48 |
| scientes | cause i see what she did to my brother, and understood that I was next | Sep 21 18:48 |
| scientes | when i get her a computer she gets frustrated and whines and gets rid of it | Sep 21 18:49 |
| scientes | and then complains that i screwed up | Sep 21 18:49 |
| scientes | when i tell her she can get internet from the neighbor for cheap she doesn't do it | Sep 21 18:49 |
| scientes | saying that "they are law-abiders" | Sep 21 18:49 |
| scientes | and then months later asks me for advice of radio transmissions, cause she is doing it | Sep 21 18:50 |
| scientes | ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG | Sep 21 18:50 |
| scientes | when i point out that other are doing nasty things she says "your not like that" | Sep 21 18:50 |
| scientes | anyways | Sep 21 18:50 |
| scientes | it could have been worked out earlier if she didn't kick me out of 16 for fear of dealing with it | Sep 21 18:51 |
| scientes | she wants me to be her father | Sep 21 18:51 |
| scientes | and my brother has fallen into that trap | Sep 21 18:51 |
| scientes | when i tried to give advice on what i needed at 6 or so, that the neighbors home schooled and it worked, she got snobbish, as if she was better than them, of all the things we would do, but she cant actually perform on | Sep 21 18:51 |
| scientes | when talking about things she does she is totally delusional about want she could have done with her life | Sep 21 18:52 |
| scientes | when it comes to those things that helped her most, she says that other people never gave her pride for those things | Sep 21 18:52 |
| scientes | when i do something good, she puts me down, and tries to do it herself | Sep 21 18:52 |
| scientes | as a little kid, when i stubbournly am walking to school she is going "what's wrong?", when i know she will never listen or care---and i am saying "go away, leave me alone!", its not like i can fight back, and she is already pouring cold water on me to wake me up in the morning | Sep 21 18:53 |
| scientes | and at about the same age, being left alone in a locked car, in the sun, with the windows shut, for hours, getting heat stroke, realizing that my parents absentmindedness could kill me | Sep 21 18:54 |
| scientes | running away at 8 to have my father proudly "rescue" me | Sep 21 18:55 |
| scientes | instead of the mature thing to do: realize that I have nowhere else to go and just wait for me to come back cold and hungry | Sep 21 18:55 |
| scientes | anyways | Sep 21 18:55 |
| scientes | anyways, im a pretty learned guy | Sep 21 18:55 |
| scientes | I just need a new existance | Sep 21 18:56 |
| scientes | monastic perhaps | Sep 21 18:56 |
| scientes | certainly in oneplace | Sep 21 18:56 |
| scientes | my mother thinking she is a city on a hill, but then when i confront her about self-sufficiency etc, giving pride to friends, etc, being fearful afraid herself, instead of realizing that at the least, if she insists on always being "the man" she must at least be ready to man up | Sep 21 18:57 |
| scientes | no, she is a little girl, a spoiled brat, that thinks her son, that she treats like a daughter, will give an emotional branket | Sep 21 18:57 |
| scientes | phew | Sep 21 18:57 |
| scientes | and if not, she will manipulate him into the same path of the disfunctional and pained but materiall successful brother | Sep 21 18:58 |
| scientes | schestowitz, did that make any sense? | Sep 21 18:58 |
| scientes | that was bottled up once: in my teenage years, and then again 16-20 | Sep 21 18:59 |
| *schestowitz reads | Sep 21 18:59 | |
| scientes | there was a girl that could have helped, and did fall in love with me in HS, but in retrospect just didn't understand the basics of territorial and personality romance | Sep 21 18:59 |
| schestowitz | her father has died? | Sep 21 19:00 |
| scientes | make the nest the school, which is sorely lacking in sensibility | Sep 21 19:00 |
| scientes | he is a puer, a survivor | Sep 21 19:00 |
| scientes | oh, yeah my maternal grandfather died just a few years ago | Sep 21 19:00 |
| scientes | like last year | Sep 21 19:00 |
| scientes | only very recently | Sep 21 19:00 |
| schestowitz | I think activism is a worthy cause | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | there is a quite a effigy to him | Sep 21 19:01 |
| schestowitz | Too much need for it | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | my problem is basic neccities | Sep 21 19:01 |
| schestowitz | Too few who are capable embarking on it | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | just having a place to live that I belong | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | food | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | water | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | routines of clenliness | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | these things i never had | Sep 21 19:01 |
| scientes | especially territory | Sep 21 19:01 |
| schestowitz | Without being lured in by money | Sep 21 19:02 |
| scientes | this girl made the territory her house, and never shows seperation from her mother---and by initiating, instead of forcing an appreciate of the elders and having her mother ask from the school (where her mother always was and volunteering, its really her "house", while me the ambitious glass cannon) it never could develop as seperate | Sep 21 19:02 |
| schestowitz | scientes: which state? Some US state are.. well, in a bad state | Sep 21 19:02 |
| scientes | washington | Sep 21 19:02 |
| scientes | not a bad state at all | Sep 21 19:02 |
| scientes | no I love politics and activism | Sep 21 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Ah | Sep 21 19:03 |
| scientes | I just need a place where living is highly structured | Sep 21 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Nevada..? | Sep 21 19:03 |
| scientes | cause i really don't have any ability or confidence in territory | Sep 21 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Heh. | Sep 21 19:03 |
| scientes | i lived on the streets for 6 months before getting pretty cold | Sep 21 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Washington is cold | Sep 21 19:03 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: Switzerland, Germany | Sep 21 19:03 |
| FurnaceBoy | :) | Sep 21 19:03 |
| scientes | cause my mother insists on being the man, but doesn't even have the dicipline to be a single parents | Sep 21 19:03 |
| schestowitz | FurnaceBoy: yeah | Sep 21 19:03 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: Bavaria | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | washington is not cold | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | on the west: humid | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | here there are alot of japaneese exchange students | Sep 21 19:04 |
| schestowitz | In winter... | Sep 21 19:04 |
| FurnaceBoy | or Japan for that matter. | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | i just made a phone call from one that had been here two days | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | <schestowitz> In winter... | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | ^^^ no | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | only maybe for a week when the north-west wind blows | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | then maybe -10 to -40 C | Sep 21 19:04 |
| scientes | but only for a week or 2 | Sep 21 19:05 |
| scientes | other wise 40-60 all winter west of the cascades | Sep 21 19:05 |
| scientes | (f) | Sep 21 19:05 |
| scientes | very warm, but humid | Sep 21 19:05 |
| scientes | extremely temperate, except when that north-east wind blows | Sep 21 19:06 |
| scientes | whoops, i said north-west up there | Sep 21 19:06 |
| scientes | its north-east, down from the canadian rockies | Sep 21 19:06 |
| scientes | then it gets dry | Sep 21 19:06 |
| scientes | http://weather.unisys.com/satellite/sat_ir_enh_west_loop-12.html | Sep 21 19:06 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Unisys Weather: 12 hour Loop of Enhanced Infrared Satellite Image .::. Size~: 9.29 KB | Sep 21 19:06 |
| scientes | I'm thinking of changing my name | Sep 21 19:07 |
| scientes | its a west-coast place, so similar to west coast europe | Sep 21 19:08 |
| scientes | east coast US is more like japan | Sep 21 19:08 |
| scientes | anyways, any communities that I can join outright? | Sep 21 19:10 |
| scientes | i should have stood up to my mother at 16.... | Sep 21 19:10 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: in the US? | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | anywhere | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | I've got the most excellent test scores, if that makes any difference | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | I've got intelligence | Sep 21 19:11 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: well, for structured communities, like I said, Germany (e.g. Bavaria), Switzerland, and Japan are like that. | Sep 21 19:11 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: or perhaps Netherlands, and so on. | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | aha | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | i only know english | Sep 21 19:11 |
| scientes | thats why NZ | Sep 21 19:11 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: no idea then. English speaking countries are not very helpful, | Sep 21 19:12 |
| schestowitz |  | Sep 21 19:12 |
| FurnaceBoy | NZ is not going to be hugely different from the US west coast (e.g.) | Sep 21 19:12 |
| schestowitz | [19:04] <scientes> i just made a phone call from one that had been here two days | Sep 21 19:12 |
| scientes | schestowitz, | Sep 21 19:12 |
| scientes | schestowitz, the phone of a japaneese exchange student | Sep 21 19:12 |
| schestowitz | An exchange student? | Sep 21 19:12 |
| scientes | i tried to invite him to my friends 20 acres | Sep 21 19:12 |
| scientes | but i dont think he understood what i was saying | Sep 21 19:12 |
| scientes | tried to use simple words, but anyways | Sep 21 19:13 |
| scientes | should of written it down..... | Sep 21 19:13 |
| schestowitz | I see... | Sep 21 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Wow, the northern west coast US is more messed up than I realise | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | I thought it was south California and Navada mostly | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | meh | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | california is much woorse | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | In #techrights we have someone from Nevada | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | the government is shuting down | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | Chocking figures there.. | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | here i really havn't seen it besides not that many jobs | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | but pretty much everything seems functional | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | scientes: welcome your FEMA overload | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | "It's en emergency... we're all broke" | Sep 21 19:14 |
| scientes | I think it will hit the whole country at the same time however | Sep 21 19:14 |
| schestowitz | "Bring Blackwater to save us" | Sep 21 19:15 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they'll throw grenades for fun | Sep 21 19:15 |
| schestowitz | ANd collect fingers for "trophies" | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | FurnaceBoy, any specifics, only specifics are helpful | Sep 21 19:15 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: right, the future looks grim | Sep 21 19:15 |
| schestowitz | Like in Iraq.. | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | same to schestowitz | Sep 21 19:15 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: specifics? well, i love Zurich, myself. | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | I need a structured community | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | i think i could do great in one | Sep 21 19:15 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: try southern Germany. | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | not a big city | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | and the housing situation is key | Sep 21 19:15 |
| scientes | i need something structured enough so i can be normal | Sep 21 19:15 |
| FurnaceBoy | well, emigration is tricky. | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | or differn't enough for US conventions | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | *from | Sep 21 19:16 |
| schestowitz | There's demand for labour in some countries | Sep 21 19:16 |
| schestowitz | Like care | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | which are pretty screwed up, so why aclimatize myself to them now | Sep 21 19:16 |
| FurnaceBoy | if you dont' have a lot of cash to live on for a few yrs, you need a job. | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | i just want to nest the place i really want to live for a while | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | instead of mozing around | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | so the current track is into academia | Sep 21 19:16 |
| scientes | cause i know some peoplpe | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | and then maybe network from there | Sep 21 19:17 |
| schestowitz | scientes: pull a Zinn | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | or maybe it could work with this friend who has 20 acres | Sep 21 19:17 |
| schestowitz | Spellman college... | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | but i've already screwed a lot of this up | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | the person i'm working with want to put me at Reed | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | i do have family in portland | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | but i think reed is over-rated | Sep 21 19:17 |
| scientes | here at WWU is actually pretty good | Sep 21 19:18 |
| scientes | maybe i just need to get into the dorms | Sep 21 19:18 |
| scientes | basically i am seeking tradition in a age without tradition | Sep 21 19:18 |
| scientes | basically an extended family | Sep 21 19:18 |
| FurnaceBoy | takes time | Sep 21 19:18 |
| scientes | i've been contacting alot of my family to find a family business or something | Sep 21 19:19 |
| scientes | cause i dont like that faux nationalism family stuff of largery institutions | Sep 21 19:19 |
| FurnaceBoy | heh | Sep 21 19:19 |
| scientes | my granddad was all invested in that | Sep 21 19:19 |
| scientes | and it didn't exactly benifit him | Sep 21 19:19 |
| scientes | a family business really seems like a cool thing | Sep 21 19:19 |
| scientes | schestowitz, as you have said, you feel sheltered at college | Sep 21 19:21 |
| scientes | not real world | Sep 21 19:21 |
| scientes | basically i want something tribal | Sep 21 19:22 |
| scientes | to join something tribal | Sep 21 19:22 |
| schestowitz | Ah.. | Sep 21 19:22 |
| scientes | ....or monastic in some reagard | Sep 21 19:22 |
| schestowitz | Who's sheltered at college? | Sep 21 19:22 |
| scientes | but somewhat connected | Sep 21 19:22 |
| scientes | schestowitz, that is what you have said of yourself | Sep 21 19:23 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: the French Foreign Legion? | Sep 21 19:23 |
| scientes | like you want to stay in academia to avoid the world | Sep 21 19:23 |
| schestowitz | I've last been at the University as a student a very long time ago | Sep 21 19:23 |
| schestowitz | scientes: academia-yeah | Sep 21 19:23 |
| schestowitz | But I can work part time at the hospital with the scanners | Sep 21 19:23 |
| scientes | i just lack dicipline | Sep 21 19:24 |
| schestowitz | I've seen enough of the lifestyle that's imposed mentally by TV | Sep 21 19:24 |
| FurnaceBoy | well traditionally school, army, or workforce can help | Sep 21 19:24 |
| scientes | so in leiu of that i need tradition | Sep 21 19:24 |
| scientes | but i want real tradition | Sep 21 19:24 |
| FurnaceBoy | those are real traditions. | Sep 21 19:24 |
| scientes | instead of prussian school system stuff | Sep 21 19:24 |
| schestowitz | It doesn't make people happy, just adherent to the norms that expect to follow and prisoners of banal routine | Sep 21 19:24 |
| FurnaceBoy | can you be more specific? Samurai maybe? | Sep 21 19:24 |
| scientes | FurnaceBoy, read Weapons of Mass Instruction | Sep 21 19:25 |
| schestowitz | Heh. Ninja star Jobs... | Sep 21 19:25 |
| FurnaceBoy | no, that's not the type of school I mean. | Sep 21 19:25 |
| scientes | but yes army, or japaneese/korean work dynamos | Sep 21 19:25 |
| FurnaceBoy | scientes: French Foreign Legion is a traditional last resort :) | Sep 21 19:25 |
| scientes | I honestly trust schestowitz more on matters of sensibility | Sep 21 19:26 |
| schestowitz | thanks | Sep 21 19:28 |
| scientes | but i am open to all ideas | Sep 21 19:30 |
| scientes | anyways, i really need a structured "home" environment | Sep 21 19:30 |
| scientes | at 16 I thought of joining such a thing, and instead starting contributing to boycottnovell and other politics | Sep 21 19:30 |
| schestowitz | scientes: how about prozac? | Sep 21 19:31 |
| scientes | Lithium | Sep 21 19:31 |
| schestowitz | I reckon you don't need that stuff to keep yourself sedated | Sep 21 19:31 |
| scientes | i am very sedated | Sep 21 19:31 |
| scientes | apathic is the word | Sep 21 19:31 |
| schestowitz | scientes: how old are you now? | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | i need tradition to get me out of it | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | almost 21 | Sep 21 19:32 |
| schestowitz | That's still young | Sep 21 19:32 |
| schestowitz | You should not be worried | Sep 21 19:32 |
| schestowitz | When I was 21 I was just graduating | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | how was your family | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | ? | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | (if you dont mind me asking) | Sep 21 19:32 |
| schestowitz | I've lived by myself since 18 | Sep 21 19:32 |
| scientes | parents together? | Sep 21 19:33 |
| schestowitz | This channel is logged | Sep 21 19:33 |
| schestowitz | So I don't want to write about personal life much | Sep 21 19:33 |
| schestowitz | Or in geneal | Sep 21 19:33 |
| scientes | oh ok | Sep 21 19:33 |
| schestowitz | It's not so relevant to the situation you're in anyway | Sep 21 19:34 |
| schestowitz | But you finished school age at worst time | Sep 21 19:34 |
| scientes | ok | Sep 21 19:34 |
| schestowitz | Circa 2007/08 | Sep 21 19:34 |
| scientes | will in teenage years i was super capable and ambitious | Sep 21 19:34 |
| schestowitz | And many people your age live with the parents | Sep 21 19:34 |
| scientes | and my mother kept saying "there is something out there for you, you will never have problems with money, etc, etc, etc" | Sep 21 19:34 |
| schestowitz | I know people who graduate from Stanford and go to live with their patents now | Sep 21 19:34 |
| schestowitz | Jobless | Sep 21 19:35 |
| scientes | which prevented me from getting out of a bad situation | Sep 21 19:35 |
| schestowitz | Some are exploited in unpaid internship | Sep 21 19:35 |
| schestowitz | No wonder the banks do well again | Sep 21 19:35 |
| schestowitz | Like post Great Depression | Sep 21 19:35 |
| schestowitz | Sweatshops | Sep 21 19:35 |
| scientes | yep | Sep 21 19:35 |
| scientes | thats what makes my mother's spoiled brat-hood that much more pissy | Sep 21 19:35 |
| schestowitz | But maybe moving elsewhere may help | Sep 21 19:35 |
| scientes | ...I cant believe i said so much personal stuff here | Sep 21 19:36 |
| scientes | I am just really pissed | Sep 21 19:36 |
| schestowitz | Not much personal staff | Sep 21 19:36 |
| scientes | cause she just insisted on strangling me in every way | Sep 21 19:36 |
| schestowitz | The only know thing is general broad location | Sep 21 19:36 |
| scientes | there was a friend that helped recently | Sep 21 19:36 |
| scientes | but was a few days to late | Sep 21 19:36 |
| scientes | anyways | Sep 21 19:36 |
| schestowitz | The military must love a depression | Sep 21 19:36 |
| schestowitz | In the UK I reckon recruits are up in numbers too | Sep 21 19:37 |
| scientes | except when the federal government goes insolvent | Sep 21 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Also in WW2 | Sep 21 19:37 |
| scientes | great derpession was a shut down for purely financial reasons | Sep 21 19:37 |
| scientes | they are trying to make this one act as much like the great depression so they can control it as much as possible | Sep 21 19:37 |
| schestowitz | “We’re all freaking doomed.”-Greenspan | Sep 21 19:37 |
| schestowitz | at CFR | Sep 21 19:37 |
| scientes | but you just cant keep it up like that | Sep 21 19:37 |
| scientes | NICE | Sep 21 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Greenspan: screw it, I'm going to Disneyland! | Sep 21 19:38 |
| scientes | people in the US live out of their cars | Sep 21 19:38 |
| scientes | I hate cars | Sep 21 19:38 |
| schestowitz | tents... | Sep 21 19:38 |
| schestowitz | SUVs... | Sep 21 19:38 |
| scientes | not just philosophically | Sep 21 19:39 |
| scientes | i get a horrible feeling driving them | Sep 21 19:39 |
| scientes | whih makes it hard to exist in US society | Sep 21 19:39 |
| scientes | anyways, I guess academia is the thing | Sep 21 19:40 |
| scientes | i need a new start | Sep 21 19:40 |
| scientes | I honestly could go for something monastic if that exists | Sep 21 19:40 |
| scientes | i would assume it would have internet and productive activities too | Sep 21 19:40 |
| scientes | how do i inquire about such things | Sep 21 19:40 |
| schestowitz | What specifically in acdemia? | Sep 21 19:41 |
| schestowitz | *aca | Sep 21 19:41 |
| scientes | my cousin does basic research in biology | Sep 21 19:41 |
| schestowitz | scientes: there are no names here | Sep 21 19:41 |
| scientes | /biochemistry | Sep 21 19:41 |
| schestowitz | So the privacy issues don't mean much | Sep 21 19:41 |
| schestowitz | You can start a apprentice | Sep 21 19:42 |
| scientes | i guess | Sep 21 19:42 |
| schestowitz | *as | Sep 21 19:42 |
| schestowitz | Ask at what capacity you can help | Sep 21 19:42 |
| scientes | I want something old-fashion | Sep 21 19:42 |
| scientes | where you live at the same place you work | Sep 21 19:42 |
| scientes | my mother has always done that during my life | Sep 21 19:43 |
| scientes | I can teach music | Sep 21 19:43 |
| schestowitz | Makes sense. | Sep 21 19:43 |
| schestowitz | RMS did that | Sep 21 19:43 |
| schestowitz | Lives at his office | Sep 21 19:43 |
| FurnaceBoy | yes academia can help | Sep 21 19:44 |
| FurnaceBoy | they have dorms | Sep 21 19:44 |
| FurnaceBoy | you need money tho | Sep 21 19:44 |
| schestowitz | http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html | Sep 21 19:44 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Speech in Sweden - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation (FSF) .::. Size~: 106.19 KB | Sep 21 19:44 |
| schestowitz | "Another tradition that we began was that of having places to sleep at the lab. Ever since I first was there, there was always at least one bed at the lab. And I may have done a little bit more living at the lab than most people because every year of two for some reason or other I'd have no apartment and I would spend a few months living at the lab." | Sep 21 19:44 |
| schestowitz | "And I've always found it very comfortable, as well as nice and cool in the summer. But it was not at all uncommon to find people falling asleep at the lab, again because of their enthusiasm; you stay up as long as you possibly can hacking, because you just don't want to stop. And then when you're completely exhausted, you climb over to the nearest soft horizontal surface. A very informal atmosphere." | Sep 21 19:44 |
| schestowitz | He said something about putting his coat on and going home with shoes and al... | Sep 21 19:45 |
| schestowitz | DIdn't like it.. | Sep 21 19:45 |
| FurnaceBoy | right. | Sep 21 19:46 |
| FurnaceBoy | i used to go barefoot | Sep 21 19:46 |
| FurnaceBoy | for many years | Sep 21 19:46 |
| FurnaceBoy | and lived where i worked. was effectively my apprenticeship. | Sep 21 19:46 |
| scientes | thats how i lived to, but in seculuted hermitage, not something i am exactly proud of | Sep 21 19:47 |
| scientes | but then academia usually kicks you out.... | Sep 21 19:48 |
| scientes | RMS refused to leave... | Sep 21 19:48 |
| scientes | or you enter the politics | Sep 21 19:48 |
| scientes | my ambition usually comes from having a place to live | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | not the other way around | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | my father "saved" me, and then i excelled at school, and nested | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | so thats why i need to formally join a community | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | i am not so good with pre-assumptions | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | but science i do know i can pass tests on and enjoy | Sep 21 19:49 |
| scientes | i have always been an individualist | Sep 21 19:50 |
| scientes | which this girl never picked up on, using the relationship with her mother to make me appreciate and grow me | Sep 21 19:50 |
| scientes | I have to have a "family" of some sort---and i _really_ dont want it to be nationalism | Sep 21 19:50 |
| scientes | of any sort | Sep 21 19:51 |
| schestowitz | WHich nation? | Sep 21 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Tea party? | Sep 21 19:54 |
| schestowitz | "I want MY America back" --lady about Obama | Sep 21 19:54 |
| schestowitz | [_white_ America she meant] | Sep 21 19:54 |
| MinceR | i thought she meant the united states of america | Sep 21 19:55 |
| MinceR | or, as they call it in yankeestan, "the world" | Sep 21 19:55 |
| FurnaceBoy | lol | Sep 21 19:59 |
| FurnaceBoy | MinceR: sad but true | Sep 21 19:59 |
| scientes | schestowitz, thats the Al-Jazeera one | Sep 21 20:04 |
| schestowitz | People who watch Aljazeera are terror~1 ;-) | Sep 21 20:04 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: the "real world" | Sep 21 20:05 |
| schestowitz | As in... | Sep 21 20:05 |
| scientes | ahhhh | Sep 21 20:05 |
| schestowitz | Real world=college, job, house, 2 cars, 3 kids... | Sep 21 20:05 |
| scientes | maybe i should joing a kibbutz | Sep 21 20:05 |
| schestowitz | THe "AmericanDream(C)" | Sep 21 20:05 |
| schestowitz | scientes: do they still exist? | Sep 21 20:06 |
| scientes | although i'd like to stay away from the middle east during the fall of the american empire | Sep 21 20:06 |
| schestowitz | scientes: FurnaceBoy would have to boycott you | Sep 21 20:06 |
| schestowitz | Not the Israel fascists who are in the governent like Bush to the US | Sep 21 20:07 |
| scientes | Anthony Weiner is sane | Sep 21 20:07 |
| scientes | and not a fascist | Sep 21 20:07 |
| scientes | but very jewish | Sep 21 20:08 |
| scientes | and even former roommate of Jon Stewart | Sep 21 20:08 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: no, not really. | Sep 21 20:08 |
| schestowitz | Who's he/ Weiner? | Sep 21 20:08 |
| schestowitz | FurnaceBoy: you need to help the Israelis overthrow the zealots | Sep 21 20:08 |
| schestowitz | Like settlers and hawks | Sep 21 20:09 |
| schestowitz | Some of the orthdox types who think their book is a real estate contract | Sep 21 20:09 |
| scientes | or wwoofing | Sep 21 20:10 |
| FurnaceBoy | schestowitz: i probably can't shoot straight enough for that | Sep 21 20:10 |
| schestowitz | True | Sep 21 20:10 |
| schestowitz | That's what the 9/11 terrorists may have said too. They killed children, Muslims... everything. | Sep 21 20:11 |
| schestowitz | The thing is, it's always hard | Sep 21 20:12 |
| schestowitz | People immerse themselves in a crowd that shields them | Sep 21 20:12 |
| schestowitz | Like Bush the in "land of the free" | Sep 21 20:12 |
| schestowitz | He's no founding father and his party distorts what the US stood for | Sep 21 20:13 |
| schestowitz | And likewise, Islamic extremists make up this illusion that only they follow the teachings of Mo and that suicide bombing is just | Sep 21 20:13 |
| schestowitz | With Microsoft (odd jump in analogies) targetting is hard | Sep 21 20:14 |
| schestowitz | I speak to some people from Microsoft like former employees | Sep 21 20:14 |
| schestowitz | But it's harder to trust them | Sep 21 20:14 |
| schestowitz | Some of them want Ballmer out, some do care about FOSS | Sep 21 20:14 |
| schestowitz | But the company is rotten to the core | Sep 21 20:14 |
| schestowitz | scientes: so what's it gonna be? | Sep 21 20:23 |
| scientes | maybe so to some churches, to a jewish meeting | Sep 21 20:24 |
| scientes | ask about kibbutz, etc, while waiting on the school drmatory academia thing from this counselor | Sep 21 20:24 |
| scientes | but really want suggestions | Sep 21 20:24 |
| scientes | what do you think? | Sep 21 20:27 |
| scientes | i can get back into politics | Sep 21 20:27 |
| scientes | but only after i have a solid roof, with clear obligations | Sep 21 20:27 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Sep 21 20:42 |
| schestowitz | It's a tricky one | Sep 21 20:42 |
| schestowitz | But there are people in the local communities always looking to absorb someone | Sep 21 20:43 |
| schestowitz | Just keep away from armies and religions | Sep 21 20:43 |
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| MinceR | http://www.b0g.org/wsnm/article/41677 | Sep 21 22:32 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: because you're worth it .::. Size~: 29.31 KB | Sep 21 22:32 |
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