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| schestowitz | > Just wondered how things been with you, since I no longer see you | Jan 30 05:19 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | > posting in COLA. | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > The trolls are still at their ad hominem anti-Linux ranting, but since | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > the convicted monopoly has been unable to compete against other markets | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > and since Android is succeeding, the advocates are giving them a | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > deserved pounding. | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > Homer's Leafnode kill-file initiative for most advocates have rendered | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > their rants mostly powerless. I just wished others such as Chris | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | > Ahlstrom would ignore them instead of replying to them. | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | I work in research now. I also carry on running http://techrights.org where the same writings are pursued. I might also return to COLA... | Jan 30 05:19 |
| TechrightsBot | Title: Main Page - Techrights .::. Size~: 37.85 KB | Jan 30 05:19 |
| schestowitz | ^^ COLA might hopefully relocate to a place without trolls :-( | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | What a mess of personal attacks there... | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > Glad to see you are putting your PHD to good use. The trolls have | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > finally decided to give up on their ad homineming your ungraduated | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > school status lies. | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > 7 is back today after an extended illness. | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > I've found your techrights articles enlightening. Those are giving the | Jan 30 06:26 |
| schestowitz | > trolls fits, from what I see bleeding through replies. | Jan 30 06:27 |
| schestowitz | > | Jan 30 06:27 |
| schestowitz | > Homer's leafnode initiative has at least seemed to have driven away | Jan 30 06:27 |
| schestowitz | > flatfish. Very few have been responding to his nymshifting. | Jan 30 06:27 |
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| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:32:53] <schestowitz>ping | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:32:58] <qu1j0t3>hi | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:01] <schestowitz>time-sensitive | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:07] <qu1j0t3>i thought you hated pm | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:14] <schestowitz>One person who is at the core of techrights is a police infiltrator spy | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:20] <qu1j0t3>ayayay | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:20] <schestowitz>He does not deny it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:25] <schestowitz>But... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:36] <schestowitz>Did you hear about "Mark Kennedy"? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:40] <qu1j0t3>no | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:50] <schestowitz>It's all over The Guadrian | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:33:54] <schestowitz>Like 10+ articles | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:01] <qu1j0t3>oh wait, | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:10] <qu1j0t3>the env inflitrator? yes i read one the early articles. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:12] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:16] <qu1j0t3>the guy in shaes. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:18] <schestowitz>It's a fake name | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:19] <qu1j0t3>yes i read the whole thing | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:31] <schestowitz>So I suppose he also carried a fake ID | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:36] <schestowitz>He spent years inside | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:41] <qu1j0t3>yes. was found out bc he left his passport out? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:42] <schestowitz>Gathering info | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:47] <qu1j0t3>that pport was fake too? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:54] <schestowitz>Not sure | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:34:58] <schestowitz>But... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:01] <schestowitz>I need your advice | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:15] <schestowitz>I ask you because you foresaw it and you have more experience | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:23] <qu1j0t3>ok i'll try... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:27] <schestowitz>The one we have deals with radical UK groups | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:33] <schestowitz>The thing is | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:35:56] <schestowitz>After the exposure of (IIRC 2) people in green env. groups I must reassess | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:00] <schestowitz>There are many like "Mark" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:04] <schestowitz>He's just the exposed one | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:12] <schestowitz>And 'our' spy knows him | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:19] <qu1j0t3>yeah i think many ppl are blindsided | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:21] <schestowitz>Although he tried to sneak out of talking about it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:24] <schestowitz>I have it recorded | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:36:35] <schestowitz>The thing is this.. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:37:06] <schestowitz>Why would a person choose to do a daytime job infiltrating one group for the police and spend evenings participating in another community as a hobby? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:37:12] <schestowitz>That's where I drew the line | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:37:26] <schestowitz>And I used to think we only threatened some big business, no racism or anything | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:37:49] <qu1j0t3>right, i think it crosses an ethical line, for TR community. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:37:51] <schestowitz>But now people who just watch over nature are being targeted for big business, to quote The Guardian | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:00] <qu1j0t3>yes. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:00] <schestowitz>what should I do? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:15] <schestowitz>Wikileaks also reported infiltrators | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:25] <schestowitz>More than one apparently, they got caught and reported | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:31] <qu1j0t3>yes. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:39] <qu1j0t3>that's definitely going to happen | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:55] <qu1j0t3>it's one of the risks that has to be taken into account | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:38:56] <schestowitz>I reckon this: | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:03] <schestowitz>I may need to reaffirm info | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:17] <schestowitz>But it's my responsibility to report this, if true. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:24] <schestowitz>The true 100% element is that he does spy | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:34] <schestowitz>I just don't know if he spies _on us_ too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:52] <qu1j0t3>re your guy, it's hard to say without seeing the conversation. one tack is to allow him to just leave the community without further action. everything hinges on how much evidence you have, whether he confessed, and to what exactly | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:39:54] <schestowitz>He befriended other UK groups whom I know that are friendly | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:03] <qu1j0t3>right, but whether he did or not, he can't remain in the community. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:04] <schestowitz>A group that challenged police for aggression | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:19] <qu1j0t3>if you don'thave much evidence, you can just suggest that he voluntarily leave. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:31] <schestowitz>Evidence of what type? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:38] <schestowitz>I have evidence he spies | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:39] <qu1j0t3>anythin that might prove what you say | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:43] <qu1j0t3>who he is, that he works for police, etc | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:48] <schestowitz>I don't have evidence the spying is on us too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:52] <qu1j0t3>right | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:40:55] <qu1j0t3>and you may never know | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:00] <schestowitz>I can't ask | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:06] <qu1j0t3>but i don't think that;s relevant to the q of whether he can remain in the TR community | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:09] <qu1j0t3>he can't | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:15] <qu1j0t3>it's way beyond any ethical line | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:23] <schestowitz>The answers I'll get rely on the other side having experience with it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:36] <schestowitz>[13:41] <qu1j0t3> but i don't think that;s relevant to the q of whether he can remain in the TR community | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:39] <schestowitz>pls elaborate | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:50] <schestowitz>I interpret this ambiguously | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:41:56] <schestowitz>Here's the thing | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:02] <qu1j0t3>that you know he's a professional inflitrator is outside what's allowable within TR | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:21] <schestowitz>I'm in my 20s, free thinker, active and have a job to pay me to carry on activism. I can see some reason for people to at least keep on eye on me | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:27] <qu1j0t3>yes, but: | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:42] <qu1j0t3>if you attack this guy somehow, you could find that attention unpleasantly increased | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:44] <schestowitz>Many people "on the list in the US" (not detained) are even those who can incite others to think for themselves | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:42:51] <schestowitz>It's also a form of intimidation | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:43:18] <schestowitz>what type of attention increased? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:43:28] <qu1j0t3>you could be harassed | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:43:41] <schestowitz>And let's just say I don't think I know the person's real name because the name is too generic, like John Smith | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:43:47] <qu1j0t3>right | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:03] <schestowitz>And he insisted on showing me his ID | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:07] <schestowitz>I did not ask | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:10] <qu1j0t3>heh | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:14] <schestowitz>So I find that rather dubious | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:18] <qu1j0t3>true | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:25] <schestowitz>UK does not have IDs | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:28] <schestowitz>It was cancelled | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:37] <qu1j0t3>what kind of id was it? DL? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:44:54] <schestowitz>Here's a quick question. I reckon the person who spy must remain good friend at all times... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:17] <schestowitz>And also, any precedent of the person who spies describing self as a policeman privately but one who is trusted? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:29] <schestowitz>the IF was maybe a police one | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:39] <schestowitz>Used also for trust within some radical UK group | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:42] <qu1j0t3>maybe you need ot continue questioning | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:52] <schestowitz>but questioning who? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:54] <qu1j0t3>"what kind of cop. uniformed? etc" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:45:57] <qu1j0t3>that guy | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:12] <schestowitz>Raising the subject with that person on the record? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:21] <qu1j0t3>hm | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:23] <qu1j0t3>well | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:34] <qu1j0t3>that's what i mean.. in public it can be seen as an attack | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:39] <schestowitz>I'm not sure much good can come out of it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:43] <qu1j0t3>right | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:50] <schestowitz>And as you said, I cannot quite allow this to carry on | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:56] <qu1j0t3>you're not in a very strong position, i guess. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:46:56] <schestowitz>Not after the "kennedy" incident | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:05] <qu1j0t3>right. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:08] <schestowitz>It was enough to remind me that any group can be intruded | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:08] <qu1j0t3>so | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:18] <qu1j0t3>i guess my first thought is to suggest privately that he leave the community. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:21] <schestowitz>I saw what was done to Groklaw | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:24] <schestowitz>By marbux | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:33] <qu1j0t3>hm, i'm not aware of that? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:43] <schestowitz>PJ is very much in distrusted wrt people whom she does not know | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:46] <schestowitz>Another thing | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:47:49] <schestowitz>Remember GoForbes? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:01] <qu1j0t3>no? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:08] <schestowitz>I was told his behaviour too resembled infiltration | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:14] <schestowitz>I raised this in IRC | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:15] <qu1j0t3>Dan Lyons like? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:21] <schestowitz>But... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:24] <schestowitz>Guess who said so? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:38] <qu1j0t3>yeah i remember the conv. was it _goblin? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:47] <schestowitz>The wording was something like, "if I were to try to infiltrate techrights, I'd do it like he did" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:52] <qu1j0t3>heh | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:48:57] <schestowitz>that's OK | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:08] <schestowitz>I don't value the practice much | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:28] <schestowitz>I generally wrote negative things about police since around 2006 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:43] <schestowitz>Based on experiences with unhelpful officers | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:47] <qu1j0t3>this is kind of outside my experience, tho. i could ask an activist or two if they know how to deal with infiltrators | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:55] <schestowitz>And I was always told in many countries to avoid police at all costs | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:49:58] <qu1j0t3>your feed has got much more political in 2010 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:13] <schestowitz>it did | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:18] <schestowitz>Another thing | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:23] <schestowitz>Important IMHO | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:36] <qu1j0t3>yes. the way i've heard it is, avoid talking to police *especially* if you haven't done anything. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:38] <schestowitz>a few weeks ago I was told by this person to stay out of wikileaks | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:42] <schestowitz>And esp. Anonymous | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:50:42] <qu1j0t3>i think we can see why, every day... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:04] <qu1j0t3>yes, well you know i'm paranoid about that. they will use the connections to roll up the networks | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:09] <schestowitz>did you see my RT about south America? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:16] <schestowitz>Someone PMed me about it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:19] <qu1j0t3>yes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:21] <schestowitz>Installed president | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:51:28] <schestowitz>"just gossip" :-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:52:11] <schestowitz>what would your advice be? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:52:42] <schestowitz>I know what I might do (and this convo is time-sensitive), but I needed a smart man's second opinion | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:52:48] <qu1j0t3>the only thing i can suggest right now is ask privately that he leave the community | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:01] <qu1j0t3>beyond that i'd have to consult a couple of people (without mentioning you or TR) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:12] <schestowitz>I'd appreciate it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:29] <schestowitz>Should I report having an instrusion at some point? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:37] <schestowitz>Or keep that under the radar so to speak? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:56] <schestowitz>Indefinitely, to avoid confrontations that are not necessary | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:53:57] <qu1j0t3>i think for now, you cant know who to trust exactly. or even who will be prudent. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:03] <schestowitz>The UK is becoming rather fascistic | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:13] <schestowitz>Coalition govt. is a facistic concept | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:17] <qu1j0t3>right, a public confrontation seems pointless | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:17] <schestowitz>*fscistic | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:28] <schestowitz>Wayne has just opened policestatewatch.ca | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:34] <schestowitz>We spoke about this in IRC this morning | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:54:38] <schestowitz>He suggested I do a UK one | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:02] <qu1j0t3>cool. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:04] <schestowitz>The US govt. too has similar issues... Hungary... Jordan wants a religious regime now... Israel is fascism. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:10] <qu1j0t3>definitely a way to get watched back. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:20] <qu1j0t3>you need the wits of a julian :/ | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:31] <schestowitz>I am eager to show more connections between computing and law/govt. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:55:40] <schestowitz>I've already stepped in this puddle anyway | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:19] <schestowitz>Govts. (and my dad agrees) become very totalitarian in a way that escapes many people's attention | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:23] <schestowitz>It's a dog whistle | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:35] <schestowitz>One-party statesmanship disguised as "democracy" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:40] <schestowitz>People do not agree | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:46] <schestowitz>But it's not reported what people say | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:56:59] <schestowitz>For example, many protest against racism in the govt. but that only enters blogs | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:57:11] <schestowitz>Govt. opinion has growing disparity wrt populationm | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:57:39] <qu1j0t3>right | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:57:41] <qu1j0t3>yes that's a trend. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:01] <qu1j0t3>one thing that i think also signals the problem is 50-50 knifeedge elections, which have become normal in all continents in the past 15 yrs. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:10] <schestowitz>yup | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:12] <qu1j0t3>be very suspicious of a 50-50 election. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:13] <schestowitz>I'll tell you what | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:21] <schestowitz>I'll look closely at what to do about police intrusion | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:30] <qu1j0t3>yeah i'll get some advice | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:36] <qu1j0t3>i might even go meet somebody in person | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:40] <schestowitz>We have growing impact in techrights, political too, and I don't want to sacrifice our defences | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:51] <qu1j0t3>but it will take a few days, i'm travelling | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:58:54] <schestowitz>I've already given some person info -- more than I had intended | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:02] <schestowitz>[13:58] <qu1j0t3> be very suspicious of a 50-50 election. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:05] <schestowitz>Not unusual | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:07] <schestowitz>Very normal | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:17] <schestowitz>Look at many pseudo-democracies | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:22] <schestowitz>In some case they vote-switch | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:37] <schestowitz>Meaning one person wins MP position but is not crowned | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:42] <schestowitz>So it's decided at a whim really | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:46] <schestowitz>Bush-Gore | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [13:59:53] <schestowitz>Livni-Netanyahu | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:03] <schestowitz>Tory-Labour not as much.. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:10] <schestowitz>But they built a coalition | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:25] <schestowitz>Palin could win against Obama next year | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:37] <schestowitz>Female leaders are hard to daemonise | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:46] <schestowitz>They already have the racial card for current president | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:00:51] <schestowitz>George did not have that | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:02] <qu1j0t3>it's only normal in past 15 years or so ... populist votes in past decades have not been 50-50 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:17] <schestowitz>50-50 makes everyone happy" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:17] <qu1j0t3>i believe it's manipulated to 50-50, essentially by murdoch | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:23] <schestowitz>"You'll get it next time" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:28] <schestowitz>Just wait another 4 years, keep hope | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:39] <qu1j0t3>yes, you see? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:41] <schestowitz>And religion... Heaven is the highest form of Hope | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:01:54] <schestowitz>And war is the highest form of patriotism, they say.. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:02:05] <schestowitz>Killing your brothers who speak the wrong lang or something | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:04:29] <qu1j0t3>sigh | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:06:07] <schestowitz>What type of info might police spy want on a person? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:06:33] <schestowitz>I assume that they need to have sensitive material by which to keep 'ringleaders' under control | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:06:46] <schestowitz>Like some examples I saw | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:06:51] <schestowitz>They rarely write about it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:02] <schestowitz>Wikileaks named none, just said they have been removed | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:21] <schestowitz>Without writing to explain more, I lack material I can learn from to better understand the tactics | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:30] <schestowitz>Wikileaks had material | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:35] <schestowitz>As I dented an hour ago | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:46] <schestowitz>but it was on Wikileaks old domain, which is no more | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:55] <schestowitz>It was the MoD manual (huge book) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:07:58] <qu1j0t3>you need to speak to experienced people i don't have direct experience of this | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:08:50] <schestowitz>I don't personally know anyone who was intruded and had it confirmed | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:10:12] <qu1j0t3>bbs, wife needs to use laptop for a moment | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:12:21] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:22] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Client Quit). | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:44:34] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:46] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:51:22] <qu1j0t3>http://security.resist.ca/personal/politicalspying.shtml | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:51:52] <schestowitz>"Organizations involved in controversial issues -- particularly those who encourage or assist members to commit civil disobedience -- should be alert to the possibility of surveillance and disruption by police or federal agencies. " | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:51:53] <schestowitz>Ah... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:52:07] <qu1j0t3>via friend | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:52:19] <schestowitz>"During the last three decades, many individuals and organizations were spied upon, wiretapped, their personal lives dirupted in an effort to draw them away from their political work, and their organizations infiltrated. " | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:52:48] <schestowitz>"undreds of thousands of pages of evidence from agencies such as the FBI and CIA were obtained by Congressional inquiries headed by Senator Frank Church and Representative Otis Pike, others were obtained through use of the Freedom of Information Act and as a result of lawsuits seeking damages for First Amendment violations. " | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:52:56] <schestowitz>"HOWEVER, DO NOT LET PARANOIA IMMOBILIZE YOU. The results of paranoia and overreaction to evidence of surveillance can be just as disruptive to an organization as an actual infiltrator or disruption campaign. " | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:55:14] <schestowitz>" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:55:14] <schestowitz>An agent may: | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:55:14] <schestowitz> * Volunteer for tasks which provide access to important meetings and papers such as financial records, membership lists, minutes and confidential files. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [17:55:14] <schestowitz>" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [22:19:13] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). | ||
| [Sunday 30 Jan 2011] [19:48:43] <qu1j0t3>right, i don't think the response was clear cut, the best i could come up with as a first response was : "ask privately to leave the community". | ||
| [Monday 31 Jan 2011] [04:08:04] Quitqu1j0t3 has left this server (Quit: WeeChat 0.2.6). | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:27:11] <schestowitz>I need to report something | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:27:39] <MinceR>to whom? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:27:50] <schestowitz>We have a police spy in techrights | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:27:56] <schestowitz>He infiltrates groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:07] <schestowitz>You are the third person I privately report this too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:14] <schestowitz>And I will make this public at a later date | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:16] <MinceR>who is he? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:26] <schestowitz>I can't say | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:40] <MinceR>i see | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:49] <schestowitz>But it's something like this guy: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1347601/My-life-run-The-police-spy-lifts-lid-years-eco-warrior.html | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:28:57] <MinceR>and i should keep the fact that we have a spy a secret, right? :) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:29:03] <schestowitz>For now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:29:28] <schestowitz>I will confront the person soon, unless I accidentally scared the person away | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:29:49] <MinceR>ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:30:00] <MinceR>do you know/can you tell why he's here? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:30:17] <schestowitz>I suppose we did something right | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:30:38] <schestowitz>But I cannot verify we are among the watched, just that the person is a watcher cause he admitted this | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:31:23] <schestowitz>I disclose this to you as suggested by http://security.resist.ca/personal/politicalspying.shtml | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:31:27] <MinceR>:) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:37:23] <MinceR>do you know/can you tell when that person first appeared (approximately)? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:46:10] <schestowitz>That's a good question | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:46:41] <schestowitz>Because he was noticed externally first, in another site where he investigated individuals (still does) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:01] <MinceR>was i investigated? :> | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:07] <schestowitz>I had long debates about it yesterday and today | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:16] <schestowitz>Thus relative quiet on the surface of the site | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:28] <schestowitz>no, not people here get invetigated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:48] <schestowitz>all sorts of agents of corps are studies | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:50] <schestowitz>*died | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:55] <schestowitz>*studied | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:47:58] <schestowitz>^sounds better | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:48:19] <schestowitz>This has caused a huge distraction | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:48:56] <schestowitz>I can no longer blindly assume innocence in the sense that the watcher is not watching, I need to verify | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:49:11] <schestowitz>Thus the delay in release of this information | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:49:53] <MinceR>ic | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:50:16] <schestowitz>Take it as an honour, not a reason to be unnerved or anything | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:50:44] <MinceR>:) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:50:44] <schestowitz>I may release it tomorrow, if I cannot achieve what it needed | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:19:32] <MinceR>btw, can you tell/do you know which country is this spy from? :> | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:19:42] <MinceR>i'm guessing USA, but can't be sure | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:23:35] <schestowitz>UK | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:23:42] <MinceR>ic | ||
| [Sunday 30 Jan 2011] [19:47:02] <MinceR>perhaps we need an unofficial channel that isn't publicly logged -- so we can discuss stuff without spies and trolls collecting data on us | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:35:38] <schestowitz>I need to report something | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:35:45] <schestowitz>We have a police spy in techrights | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:35:57] <schestowitz>I have informed 3 more people so far | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:36:05] <schestowitz>You re the fourth | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:36:14] <gnufreex>Police spy? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:36:22] <schestowitz>In line with http://security.resist.ca/personal/politicalspying.shtml I hereby notify you | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:36:33] <schestowitz>Don't worry, it's nothing to be afraid of | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:37:02] <gnufreex>Who is it? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:37:24] <schestowitz>I cannot say | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:37:30] <schestowitz>Do not tell anyone for now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:37:35] <gnufreex>ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:50:29] <gnufreex>One thing: I am curious. Do you *can't say* or *don't know*. And don't worry, I will not tell anything to anyone, either way. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:51:11] <schestowitz>two parts: | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:51:15] <schestowitz>1. can't say: | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:51:28] <schestowitz>Names or other details that may derail my invetigation | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:51:46] <schestowitz>some background that may jeopardise innocent people | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:51:51] <schestowitz>2. don't know | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:52:11] <schestowitz>Whether we too are among the infiltrated groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:52:14] <gnufreex>Ah, ok. No problemo. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:52:37] <schestowitz>The latter part tells you what I *do* know, and even in 2006 one security person at the university told me I was being watched | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:53:22] <schestowitz>techrights is not just me now, we have a union in places like identica and stuff, so it's more like a movement and it disrupts some people who have power | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:53:57] <gnufreex>This is scary. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:04] <schestowitz>Not really | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:10] <schestowitz>It was scary 5 years ago | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:25] <schestowitz>I got used to it, I think, or maybe it became less visible | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:42] <schestowitz>Earlier today I read about Anonymous arrests | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:43] <gnufreex>I didn't assume that anyone other than Big Corps would be offended with this site. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:44] <schestowitz>5 in the UK | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:54:55] <schestowitz>The infiltrator in our group warned me about these in advance | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:01] <schestowitz>I should say "Alleged" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:14] <schestowitz>And I read about people funding smear attacks on Moore | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:20] <schestowitz>Healthcare cartel | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:32] <gnufreex>But how to fight this? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:39] <schestowitz>I think my 'watcher' is also in some way watching groups that are opposed to me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:55:51] <gnufreex>Probably. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:56:04] <schestowitz>Trying to intervene in this turf, so if there's a guardian element here I want to be careful how it's handled | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:56:10] <schestowitz>But I never trusted police | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:56:16] <schestowitz>Definitely not undercover police | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:56:41] <gnufreex>They are probably doing that to Groklaw too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:56:51] <schestowitz>PJ is very much behaving like it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:07] <gnufreex>You mean being anonimous? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:09] <schestowitz>But I know of some attempts, none successful | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:11] <gnufreex>Or like Police? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:16] <schestowitz>Pretexting and stuff | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:26] <schestowitz>Getting information from the inside | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:46] <schestowitz>Groklaw was attacked by SCO poeople and front groups like CompTIA | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:57:56] <schestowitz>We too were attackjed by Novell staff | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:06] <schestowitz>but they took their IPs to other sites after I unmasked them | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:14] <schestowitz>Then Carla and others exposed them | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:31] <schestowitz>Basicially saying to the world that Novell IP addressed used their platforms to smear me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:42] <schestowitz>I never did anything wrong | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:45] <gnufreex>So there is posibility that police is in fact not against Techrights... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:52] <gnufreex>But watching on Novell | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:58:54] <schestowitz>That's the point | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:59:01] <schestowitz>But techrights is broader than that | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:59:06] <schestowitz>It's like RMS more than FSF | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:59:11] <schestowitz>So we're a tad political too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:59:28] <schestowitz>I need to stay true to principles and help expose police abuse in the UK | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [18:59:59] <gnufreex>Hm... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:00:10] <gnufreex>Police abuse you mean this | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:00:38] <schestowitz>They are not supposed to participate | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:00:52] <schestowitz>But they do | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:00:58] <schestowitz>Whether inside or outside work | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:01:06] <schestowitz>But I assume police is never 'outside' work | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:01:38] <schestowitz>I maintain this rule when assessing actions of Novell/Microsoft/ACCESS employees | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:01:45] <gnufreex>Look from other direction: Novell shown that they have no morality. They might try to get you killed. So police is maybe trying to prevent that. But you probably know more. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:01:59] <schestowitz>No | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:04] <schestowitz>Unlikely | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:19] <schestowitz>We're under pressure right now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:30] <schestowitz>Been a crazy week, I should not have said that in identica | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:41] <schestowitz>Too late to take that back | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:45] <gnufreex>You said it identica? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:02:52] <schestowitz>Sort of... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:03:05] <schestowitz>I might take on British undercover police | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:03:20] <schestowitz>Which is scarier than addressing the issue of corporate abuse | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:03:41] <schestowitz>In Russia, for example (extreme example), people are being "disappeared" for it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:09] <schestowitz>But techrights is about explaining the truth so that people know better | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:15] <gnufreex>Yeah, Russia is scary, but not as people think | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:24] <gnufreex>There are nationalist problems in russia | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:39] <schestowitz>In Soviet Russia, passenger grops TSA officer | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:45] <gnufreex>There are lots of nations that are part of russia | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:51] <gnufreex>And some want independance | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:04:57] <gnufreex>So russians need to react. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:08] <gnufreex>They want to brake the country. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:20] <gnufreex>I know how that is, Yugoslavia and all. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:26] <schestowitz>it's a struggle everywhere | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:33] <schestowitz>Power struggles | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:41] <schestowitz>Oligarchs wage these wars | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:44] <schestowitz>Police don't care | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:47] <schestowitz>They follow orders | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:05:51] <schestowitz>Same with army | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:06:03] <schestowitz>THe commands need to come with money/power interests, like gas. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:07:33] <gnufreex>Ok. I will keep totaly quiet about this, like you didn't tell me. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:08:28] <schestowitz>It'll come out later, I reckon | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:08:34] <gnufreex>About identica, you can delete post. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:08:44] <gnufreex>but probably people saw it. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:09:50] <gnufreex>If you find out something, or need help, I am in. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:02] <schestowitz>Thanks | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:12] <schestowitz>I may post about it tomorrow | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:18] <gnufreex>Wo... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:30] <gnufreex>Dude, don't push it. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:45] <gnufreex>And wintrolls might use it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:10:54] <gnufreex>To say you are lost your marbles | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:11:21] <schestowitz>How so? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:11:33] <gnufreex>I don't know | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:11:48] <schestowitz>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1347601/My-life-run-The-police-spy-lifts-lid-years-eco-warrior.html | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:11:51] <gnufreex>But they make crap anyways. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:11:59] <schestowitz>Trolls will be trolls | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:12:06] <gnufreex>True | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:12:07] <schestowitz>I can stick to the facts | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [19:12:20] <gnufreex>Ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [20:45:01] <schestowitz>I speak to Gordon ATM | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [20:45:23] <gnufreex>ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [20:45:29] <schestowitz>GoForbes being here has relevance for reasons I shall explain later | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:50:25] <schestowitz>ping | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:50:33] <amarsh04>hi | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:50:44] <schestowitz>Hi, have you got a few minutes? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:10] <amarsh04>yes... just getting a new kernel installed but in no hurry | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:12] <schestowitz>I have something to raise which cannot be shared in the channel (publicly) just yet | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:21] <amarsh04>ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:24] <schestowitz>I consider you a trusted member of techrights | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:40] <schestowitz>Have you been reading about green groups in the UK in the news? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:51:48] <amarsh04>thanks... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:52:10] <amarsh04>yes, I saw a referral, about an infiltrator or infiltrators? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:52:22] <schestowitz>My identica feed was a little more telling than it out to have been... discussing the British police getting caught infiltrating liberalist groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:52:37] <schestowitz>techrights too seems to have been infiltrated. I cannot name the person. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:52:41] <amarsh04>there was a similar case with some group in the Australian state of Victoria who opposed a desalination plant | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:53:07] <schestowitz>I also require confirmation, but I may not be able to get it cause the evidence source may have been 'scared | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:53:15] <amarsh04>I assume that people can monitor irc channels and/or cast red-herrings | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:53:23] <schestowitz>I seek your advice and also wish to inform you | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:53:37] <schestowitz>I spoke only to one other member | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:53:54] <schestowitz>He spoke to friends who had been infiltrated too, AFAIK, and they pointed me at http://security.resist.ca/personal/politicalspying.shtml | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:54:23] <schestowitz>So I feel oblige to inform you that we may have been infiltrated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:55:22] <amarsh04>in Australia, things are so small that "everyone knows everyone", this has negatives and positives | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:55:28] <schestowitz>I don't think spying on the Web is likely in this case | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:55:33] <schestowitz>We are not a risk group | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:55:41] <schestowitz>But let me tell you this | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:55:53] <schestowitz>The person in question acknolwedged being an infiltrator | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:56:12] <schestowitz>What I cannot verify is whether we too are among the infiltrated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:56:35] <schestowitz>I have been verifying some details and found warning sign going backwards too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:57:12] <schestowitz>So I spent some hours this week (as I implicitly reported in identica prematurely) gathering better understanding | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:57:20] <amarsh04>I'm used to their being paid "plants" or infiltrators in companies (e.g. the people that push for Microsoft / Computer Associates / Peoplesoft / Oracle / IBM ) - I'm not so used to that happening in irc | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:57:36] <schestowitz>not IRC | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:58:11] <schestowitz>I am preparing to confront the suspected person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [12:59:37] <schestowitz>If I can get another chance. The evidence I have thus far is compelling as circumstantial and beyond. If it were not for this month's expose in The Guardian, I would not have embarked on this - that's why we need the watchdog press | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:01:21] <amarsh04>is this an effort to damage software freedom, the rights of individuals not to be controlled by governments and big companies or something else? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:02:08] <schestowitz>Let me clarify some points | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:02:13] <schestowitz>I have a very clean past | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:02:22] <schestowitz>I have engaged in no wrongdoing, incitations, etc. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:02:44] <schestowitz>The other 1 person whom I speak to (he has experience in this) argues that challenging the status quo makes one a threat | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:03:02] <amarsh04>so this is an attempt to damage your reputation by making false accusations? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:03:18] <schestowitz>Actually, another person from his country once told me this. The police is generally taking commands from a corporations-funded governmen | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:03:35] <schestowitz>not false accusations, no... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:03:42] <schestowitz>Here is another bit | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:03:57] <schestowitz>I know who else is infiltrated by the same person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:04:15] <schestowitz>And he gave me many signs that I'm experienced enough to interpret correctly, I hope | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:06:29] <amarsh04>one of my cousins used to be world president of Greenpeace which involved making some highly visible (but not threatening to individuals) actions... he was later ousted by the board. In a later very public statement by senior .au police they stated that they may not have agreed with what he did, but they still respected him and did what they could when his brother's adopted son went missing and was found murdered (by the biological mother) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:06:36] <schestowitz>I am not afraid by it, actually somewhat flattered. But I also -- as part of what I have been doing for years -- feel eager to expose this if I gather enough material (evidence) for the press to go along with... like I said, the main question is, is the person only infiltrating other groups (I cannot name them here) or us too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:06:47] <amarsh04>ok, sounds like the victorian desal plant case | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:15] <schestowitz>How so? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:18] <schestowitz>Pls elaborate | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:28] <schestowitz>I needed to gather info on how they can present themselves | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:34] <amarsh04>ok... so he is known to infiltrate others, then shows up here | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:36] <schestowitz>As in, tactics they use for trust-gaining | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:42] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:07:49] <schestowitz>But why would he tell me in advance? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:00] <schestowitz>It's rather baffling | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:12] <schestowitz>Maybe it's an effective cover | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:17] <amarsh04>ok, the company responsible for the victorian desal plant were supplied information by the victorian police and infiltrated the protest groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:38] <schestowitz>I see... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:45] <schestowitz>Do you know how they approached the group | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:49] <amarsh04>another case in Australia was when Patrick Stevedores hired strike-breakers | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:08:52] <schestowitz>Many incidents this month triggered lights | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:09:23] <schestowitz>Another thing | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:09:28] <amarsh04>give me a few minutes ... I have the Electronic Frontiers Australia privacy list emails on my computer (they're not publicly archived) and they mentioned this case | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:09:31] <schestowitz>I am careful not to give too much info BTW | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:09:38] <schestowitz>Were fake names used by the spies? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:09:57] <schestowitz>Generic names too, ones which cannot be googled properly or search as they are too common? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:10:27] <schestowitz>I was told by the suspect that the one who has just been exposed had a fake name... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:10:48] <schestowitz>And he hesitated when responding, first pretending not to know anything about it, then changing the mind | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:10:58] <schestowitz>To me it was one among other red lights | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:15] <schestowitz>He also befriended a group I follow on YouTube | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:20] <schestowitz>One that challenges police | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:23] <amarsh04>that is one thing that is done... also some spy agencies can legally have false id | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:37] <schestowitz>To them too he introduced himself as a copA | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:50] <schestowitz>And said one of the infiltrated was "paranoid" about it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:11:59] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:12:03] <schestowitz>False ID is ssume | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:12:10] <schestowitz>He insisted on showing me his ID | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:12:12] <schestowitz>I didn't ask for it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:12:28] <schestowitz>Within like minutes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:13:10] <schestowitz>Here is more info | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:13:18] <amarsh04>just verifying a couple of links on the desal protestors infiltration | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:13:23] <schestowitz>I think I dropped many clues already, but not names | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:13:30] <schestowitz>The person admitted invading BNP | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:13:57] <schestowitz>What I think is, this may be a way of inferring, "I'm here looking only after the very radical types, you're just my friend" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:14:09] <amarsh04>http://www.theage.com.au/national/secret-files-on-protesters-given-to-desal-consortium-20091204-kb29.html | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:15:22] <schestowitz>There are more odd things I can say, but that may give away too much sensitive info (at this stage) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:15:48] <schestowitz>But I do not know about the past of that person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:15:59] <schestowitz>And it seems to contradict some of what I know | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:16:51] <schestowitz>The person told me fellow policemen listen to the show | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:16:55] <schestowitz>Which I found odd | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:16:59] <schestowitz>They are not Linux users | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:17:11] <schestowitz>He listens to the show we do | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:17:18] <schestowitz>Like many others so | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:17:20] <schestowitz>Like many others do | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:17:34] <schestowitz>I fail to see why police would be interested in FOSS site | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:18:00] <amarsh04>does England still have professional strike-breakers? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:18:40] <amarsh04>http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/investigations/workers-down-tools-after-spies-infiltrated-victorian-desalination-plant/story-fn6tcs23-1225955366608 | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:20:14] <schestowitz>thanks, I'm reading those | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:20:37] <schestowitz>anthony, we're not protesting though in this form | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:20:51] <schestowitz>However, we did lead to some actual physical protests against Novell | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:12] <amarsh04>no, I can't see how clarifying what is really happening counts as protest | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:14] <schestowitz>And one could somehow argue for "incitations" against some companies | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:30] <schestowitz>anthony, PJ too was 'paranoid' | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:41] <amarsh04>more a case of questioning motives | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:47] <amarsh04>Arthur btw | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:48] <schestowitz>She would not consent to encrypting emails with me for fear it would draw attention | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:21:57] <schestowitz>oops, arthur, yeah | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:22:21] <schestowitz>The thing I need the most is a sort of case where the spy says s/he a spy in advance | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:22:23] <amarsh04>I don't blame PJ for being paranoid | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:22:35] <schestowitz>But mentions other groups as the infiltrated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:22:54] <schestowitz>Cause if you found the subject to be a spy, then you are left in doubt and no in shock | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:22:59] <schestowitz>*not | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:23:08] <schestowitz>why would pj need to be suspicious? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:23:19] <schestowitz>I mean, what did she do that's controversial? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:23:34] <amarsh04>just what happened with Maureen O'Gara | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:23:39] <schestowitz>And PJ would also hide her IP, put mail server remotely | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:23:58] <amarsh04>it wasn't PJ being controversial, just laying out the facts for all to see | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:24:08] <schestowitz>but was MOG not painting her as "paranoid" also before the incident? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:24:28] <schestowitz>but PJ only threatened the income of some companies | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:24:39] <amarsh04>yes, I think MOG was painting PJ that way before the incident | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:24:44] <schestowitz>Which still gives reason for 'security' alert | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:24:57] <schestowitz>Coz we recently see many such things being exposed | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:25:29] <schestowitz>The Guardian put it the other day as, something like "the police is not serving corporations in their spying" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:25:56] <schestowitz>arthur, going back to 2006 I was spied on | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:25:59] <schestowitz>I know cause they told me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:26:13] <schestowitz>The people in charge told me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:26:18] <amarsh04>I think that most people would like to be able to earn enough to support their family but not want to make others resent them | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:26:20] <amarsh04>wow | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:26:21] <schestowitz>And in 2006 BN was 'small fish' | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:27:04] <schestowitz>That's also when libel was starting to flood the web... about me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:27:17] <schestowitz>In later years this libel was cited by the same group | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:28:17] <amarsh04>I think of myself as someone definitely on the sidelines... so I stir the local, state and federal government openly to call for change to make things fairer | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:29:34] <schestowitz>In 2006 I was in contact with someone from the British secret services | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:29:40] <amarsh04>and getting a PhD is hardly something that someone who doesn't know how to apply themself constructively can complete | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:29:52] <schestowitz>This happened after nasty attacks on me had been launched | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:30:01] <schestowitz>I served him the details and have heard nothing since | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:30:08] <schestowitz>Can't give the name here | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:31:27] <amarsh04>there are a few interesting cases in .au about spying, like the Israeli nuclear scientist Mordeccai Vanunu... the online archives of the ABC have some good material, particularly the 4 corners programme | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:32:44] <schestowitz>Can you elaborate a little? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:32:49] <amarsh04>I'm amazed at the amount of material that you've been able to put online over the years | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:33:03] <schestowitz>Yes, I can't keep track of it myself | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:33:15] <schestowitz>many citations from outside too, millions of viewers | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:33:26] <schestowitz>I work on it over 100 hours/week | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:33:47] <schestowitz>Which I can carry on doing for a good time to come | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:34:09] <schestowitz>The goal is spying is sometimes to get people discouraged from being activists | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:34:17] <schestowitz>Says the documents I read about it, from other groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:34:26] <schestowitz>It's like the final part of 1984 | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:34:33] <schestowitz>Obedience, indifference | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:35:23] <schestowitz>The thing is, I cannot announce an infiltration just yet and I fear it may scare away some participants (not that it should) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:35:35] <amarsh04>well, with Mordeccai Vanunu, he took assylum in Australia at one stage... it actually helped clarify what was going on because Australia was a non-nuclear, non-involved country... if he had stayed in Europe, I don't think that as many facts would have come out (he worked at a secret nuclear processing plant) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:36:15] <schestowitz>I've been getting somewhat of a cold shoulder from the suspect, maybe because I foolishly mentioned similar case (green groups) and asked some intrusive question the last time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:36:47] <amarsh04>yes, I've seen some of the way people are discouraged from speaking out on one of the links you posted: http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2011/01/20/oliver-norths-pre-trial-conditions-for-ucmj-violations-dramatically-different-than-bradley-mannings/ | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:37:41] <schestowitz>Vanunu is not alone | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:37:53] <schestowitz>They daemonise whistleblowers everywhere | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:38:06] <schestowitz>Esp. in Israel | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:38:19] <amarsh04>I bought a book about Vanunu once... don't have it any more, but was an important read | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:38:55] <schestowitz>Shamir, Anat something... there's lots of damage control done, they also block activists like Chomsky and others from enterting the country cause they have some classified docs.. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:39:13] <schestowitz>But in the UK too it's going on | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:39:24] <schestowitz>And in the states they now play the "Gay" card against Manning. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:39:39] <schestowitz>But that's all beside the point, I think. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:39:48] <schestowitz>I have just found out something important | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:39:57] <schestowitz>The person in question was online routinely.. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:40:00] <schestowitz>But... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:40:05] <schestowitz>Been offline now since Saturday | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:40:31] <amarsh04>Geofrey Robertson, the QC that has been helping Assange had a very good programme ABC television many years ago called "Geoffrey Roberton's Hypotheticals"... I think a lot of people first heard of him through that programme and respect him from then | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:41:13] <schestowitz>BTW | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:41:18] <schestowitz>wikileaks too has been infiltrated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:41:26] <schestowitz>They reports it quickly and got rid of them | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:41:38] <schestowitz>So I assume we too might be wise to do so | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:41:44] <schestowitz>I may never get a smoking gun | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:42:57] <schestowitz>But just in case that I'm mistaken, I think I know what's best to do | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:44:28] <amarsh04>I think that wikileaks knew that publicity would also lead to attempted infiltration | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:45:22] <schestowitz>Yes, that too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:45:39] <schestowitz>I keep thinking of so many things since yesterday | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:45:58] <schestowitz>specifically, thinking about odd things that were told and I did not pick up on | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:46:06] <schestowitz>I once found out a friend of mine was gay | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:46:40] <schestowitz>And in like 20+ years of knowing the person I never could tell he was gay, even when there were signs and later people called him "gay" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:47:11] <schestowitz>I still denied this was true, until he told me. And only then I could look back at a huge amount of times and memories and align the evidence with it all | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:47:26] <schestowitz>[I'm straight by the way, but not a homophobe] | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:47:39] <schestowitz>So there is a similarity here | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:48:07] <schestowitz>One where you align the evidence along with the suppressed suspicion only after too many warning signs warrant it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:48:25] <amarsh04>yes, I can see the similarity | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:49:34] <schestowitz>I'm checking some logs | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:49:39] <amarsh04>in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" you see the viewpoint of John Nash and you keep believing it beyond what would be sensible because you grew with it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:51:26] <schestowitz>Ah | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:51:30] <schestowitz>I got a photo of the person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:51:49] <schestowitz>He once showed me someone taking it, he's not supposed to be photographed | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:51:58] <schestowitz>And the picture was still online | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:52:11] <schestowitz>Assuming the name is fake, the photo is not | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:52:20] <schestowitz>[13:49] <amarsh04> in the movie "A Beautiful Mind" you see the viewpoint of John Nash and you keep believing it beyond what would be sensible because you grew with it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:52:25] <schestowitz>He lives in The Cold War | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:52:38] <schestowitz>See what happened with Bobby Fischer | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:52:44] <schestowitz>They also called him "paranoid" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:53:15] <schestowitz>Eventually he ended up having his password withdrawn,got thrown in Japanese prison for no crime, ended up in Iceland seeking refuge that they gave him | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:53:20] <amarsh04>I hated those cold-war type movies... gives one a sense of helplessness | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:53:21] <schestowitz>Very Assange-like | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:53:43] <schestowitz>the BBC's movie on nuclear war was extremely depressing to me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:53:46] <schestowitz>I watched it last year | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:54:03] <schestowitz>In 2006 I spoke to a lawyer about it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:54:08] <schestowitz>I may have to consult one again | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:54:47] <amarsh04>which one... I remember the old black-and-white .uk movie (but not its name) about the effects of a limited nuclear attack on England | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:54:56] <schestowitz>Even if being spied on and harrassed is a 'badge of honour', it is a risk to one's safety | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:55:06] <amarsh04>true | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:55:12] <schestowitz>BTW, I went to see a lawyer at the time after PJ had told me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:55:22] <schestowitz>I think I went the same day | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:56:19] <schestowitz>PJ and I go a long way back, with huge # of mails... and I can say it here too that the political nature (or anti-corporatist at times) makes her more reluctant to be associated... as it threatens Groklaw/her | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:56:30] <schestowitz>[13:54] <amarsh04> which one... I remember the old black-and-white .uk movie (but not its name) about the effects of a limited nuclear attack on England | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:56:35] <schestowitz>Maybe it's the one I watched... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:56:56] <schestowitz>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdnaKSlUh0&feature=PlayList&p=8197B8DEF93FC7D9&index=3 | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:02] <schestowitz>But now b&w | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:06] <schestowitz>*not | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:07] <amarsh04>people digging trenches, and breaking into a building where canned food was stored | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:16] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:20] <schestowitz>That might be it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:22] <amarsh04>s/trenches/shelters/ | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:34] <schestowitz>I'm in my late 20s but this was still a shocking film to me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:46] <amarsh04>you see burned bodies laid out | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:57:50] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:58:01] <schestowitz>And it ends with the pregnant kid and some hanged bodies | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [13:59:51] <amarsh04>found it - The War Game (1965) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059894/ | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:01:05] <schestowitz>"It was intended as an hour-long program to air on BBC 1, but it was deemed too intense and violent to broadcast. It went to theatrical distribution as a feature film instead." | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:01:25] <amarsh04>we were shown it in high school | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:01:31] <schestowitz>what?! | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:01:42] <schestowitz>The one I watched was hardly proper for adults | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:01:48] <schestowitz>Like seeing burned babies and stuff | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:02:18] <amarsh04>and being an agricultural high school we were also shown a film on the effect of hydatid worms on humans | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:02:35] <schestowitz>Then again, some religious schools show rapture propaganda films to make kids scared of Hell | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:02:41] <schestowitz>It's child abuse | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:03:11] <schestowitz>Education through emotional agony is not acceptable | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:03:12] <amarsh04>we had it explained well so that we didn't get nightmares | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:04:22] <amarsh04>I think the same teacher showed it to us as the one who showed us Roman Polanski's MacBeth | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:09] <schestowitz>Amazing | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:15] <schestowitz>I didn't have this done to me at school | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:24] <schestowitz>Were were shown this DiCaprio film on drug abuse | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:31] <schestowitz>Can't recall the film's name now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:37] <schestowitz>But it wasn't as disturbing | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:06:54] <schestowitz>Just needles, prostitutes, Leo shouting at him mom wanting to buy crack... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:12] <schestowitz>Going back to the subject | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:34] <amarsh04>yes (-: | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:35] <schestowitz>Without contacting the suspect (might scare him), I don't know how to get to it.. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:40] <schestowitz>He never gave phone # | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:42] <schestowitz>Odd... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:48] <schestowitz>I checked my e-mails | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:50] <schestowitz>All of them | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:07:58] <schestowitz>Was given lots of details, but never phone # | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:08:08] <schestowitz>Unless i go via the tel # of the Police HQ | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:08:17] <schestowitz>That's what I was given. Weird or what? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:08:36] <schestowitz>IOW, the person was away for 5 days | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:08:45] <schestowitz>No way of contacting the person now in real-time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:08:50] <amarsh04>Most people either deliberately give me a telephone number or deliberately withold it... a few leak theirs unintentionally or for pragmatic reasons | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:09:00] <schestowitz>In a way that does not permit confrontation with time limits | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:09:12] <amarsh04>agreed... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:09:16] <schestowitz>arthur -yes, girls too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:09:37] <schestowitz>Cause they can be brought on the line (escaping caller ID), then put in hard position | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:09:55] <amarsh04>I have that fun with some people in government or telecommunications or utilities companies | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:10:00] <schestowitz>I can tell for sure a spy was in our group | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:10:07] <schestowitz>But cannot verified if we were spied on | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:10:16] <schestowitz>Let me check what I sent the secret agent | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:11:39] <amarsh04>one fun encounter was when I couldn't get support for my voip handset and the box contained a sheet from Nokia Siemens Networks... I found the .au manager's details through a news article and sent a registered letter. Turned out that his company wasn't actually resposible for the product, Gigaset in .de were. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:12:09] <schestowitz>I found some | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:12:23] <amarsh04>I should still send them a registered letter to ask for them to fulfill their (L)GPL obligations | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:12:24] <schestowitz>this person was invetigating the BBC at the time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:12:27] <schestowitz>For moles | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:13:16] <amarsh04>sounds too much like those double agents between .uk and the former Soviet Union | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:06] <schestowitz>it's odd | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:07] <schestowitz>So OK | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:18] <schestowitz>I spoke to two very trusted members of the site | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:21] <schestowitz>You and another | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:36] <schestowitz>I am not sure I can safely get hold of the person in question anymore | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:41] <schestowitz>So I face two option | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:42] <schestowitz>So I face two options | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:15:51] <schestowitz>1) announce and address the issue publicly | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:16:12] <schestowitz>2) wait longer and see if more evidence can be gathered before blowing a trumpet | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:16:37] <schestowitz>I fear that, re (2), I may have already blown it too hard in identica but not directly | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:17:00] <amarsh04>it depends a bit if that person re-appears, or in fact if it is better to announce it while that person isn't around | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:17:36] <schestowitz>I don't understand that last sentence | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:17:45] <amarsh04>it's been good that you've been in the .uk "looking across the pond" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:02] <schestowitz>Explain pls. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:10] <schestowitz>You mean exposing from afar? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:22] <amarsh04>do you announce the issue publicly while the person in question is off-line, wait for them to re-appear, or as you said, gather more evidence | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:26] <schestowitz>Not that the commonwealth nations are totally disconnected, either. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:40] <amarsh04>yes, and with the benefit of a different time zone | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:48] <schestowitz>why while the person is offline? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:18:59] <schestowitz>Is it better off done while the person is online? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:05] <amarsh04>that was just one of the alternatives | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:13] <amarsh04>I'm not sure what would be preferable | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:20] <amarsh04>sorry for my slow typing btw | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:27] <schestowitz>The person was not online since Sat | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:37] <schestowitz>that's ok, you respond quickly | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:43] <schestowitz>I examine my evidnece again | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:19:46] <amarsh04>so quite a few days off-line now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:20:01] <schestowitz>Yup | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:20:04] <schestowitz>The person was online | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:20:19] <schestowitz>But not in some forum that can be approached in real-time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:22:45] <amarsh04>one more link on the Victorian desalination plant: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/police-deal-crucial-to-desal-goahead-20101011-16g03.html | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:22:55] <schestowitz>I am trying to find moments where the clues were given away, maybe make some notes for mysekf | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:26:21] <amarsh04>yes, some things can be really subtle... like that comment I sent you several months ago from an ATI/AMD developer about how much of the code and silicon was to do with digital restrictions management. If you can block out some time to look at the logs without putting yourself under time pressure, something might leap out at you. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:30:13] <amarsh04>last link on the Victorian desalination plant: http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2009/s2761455.htm | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:31:07] <schestowitz>thanks, I'm reading those | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:31:40] <schestowitz>I think 'my guy' is trying to target some Linux folks... and other such groups... using sympathy... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:32:38] <amarsh04>Professor Roger Clarke, one of the people interviewed in the last link is a good person on the Electronic Frontiers Australia privacy list | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:34:46] <amarsh04>I'm of the school of "if you want something done, do it yourself"... some people wonder why I haven't joined up with other groups but it seems more effective to deal with things myself | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:35:46] <schestowitz>You need to unionise | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:35:54] <schestowitz>That's why unions get broken up | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:36:17] <schestowitz>They can gain more comprehensive knowledge by linking and making up one another's findings | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:37:01] <amarsh04>the union that covers my area of employment could be better organised | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:37:23] <amarsh04>best union I was in was the National Tertiary Education Union | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:38:03] <amarsh04>they have full-time staff on Adelaide University campus and share the same email and phone system as other university staff | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:42:27] <amarsh04>they NTEU helped spread information about problems with Peoplesoft installations at other universities around the world | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:43:02] <amarsh04>back in a few minutes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:46:28] <schestowitz>ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:46:38] <schestowitz>I'm reading some stuff | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [14:49:27] <amarsh04>thanks for the link http://security.resist.ca/personal/politicalspying.shtml btw | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:03:58] <schestowitz>Mark Kennedy: 15 other undercover police infiltrated green movement http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8262746/Mark-Kennedy-15-other-undercover-police-infiltrated-green-movement.html | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:05:47] <schestowitz>oops | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:05:52] <schestowitz>I poasted in main channel a quote | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:05:53] <schestowitz>"In an interview with the Mail on Sunday the former policeman said he had been “hung out to dry” by his former handlers in the National Public Order Intelligence Unit (NPOIU) which sent him to infiltrate radical environmental groups in 2003. " | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:06:33] <schestowitz>"He added: “That is the problem about this whole undercover police operation. There seem to be no guidelines, no rules – I was pretty much left to fend for myself.” " | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:07:01] <schestowitz>"Mr Kennedy also disclosed that he knew of at least 15 other undercover police who had infiltrated the movement and said that by the time he left in 2009 there were at least four others. " | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:07:24] <schestowitz>"The scale of public money invested in such operations was also laid bare as he disclosed that in addition to his £50,000-a-year salary, his handlers paid up to £200,000 a year into a secret bank account to help him maintain his cover. " | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:08:50] <schestowitz>By the way | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:08:54] <schestowitz>The name is fake | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:09:01] <schestowitz>I was told that | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:10:11] <amarsh04>it doesn't sound English enough anyway | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:10:51] <schestowitz>True | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:11:11] <amarsh04>both my grandmother's maiden names are so rare that I'm probably related to anyone with those surnames | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:12:47] <amarsh04>and I'm not related to anyone in Australia beyond my immediate family with the surname "Marsh"... but at least with there always being some .au cricketers with that name so that the public at large doesn't mistake it for another surname | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:12:56] <schestowitz>That is both good and a bad thing | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:13:15] <schestowitz>There's another stalker called Tim Smith | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:13:32] <schestowitz>That too is a sick stalker, some thought Microsoft had hired him | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:13:44] <amarsh04>funniest thing was that there was another Arthur Marsh working at Telstra and I'd once been mistaken for him. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:14:00] <amarsh04>I'd also been mistaken for an "Arthur Marshman" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:14:26] <amarsh04>so few people called Arthur these days that it is good for identification | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:15:20] <schestowitz>How much longer to wait before next chance to speak to the suspected one, I wonder... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:15:32] <schestowitz>I'll give it a few more days | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:15:55] <schestowitz>From what I can see, mark who blew the whistle says everything that worried me | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:16:03] <schestowitz>I only now read articles about it closely | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:16:07] <schestowitz>And he fears for his life | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:16:18] <schestowitz>Cause he becomes a threat to these police operations | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:19:56] <amarsh04>"Mark Kennedy" worked undercover for a fair while. I think that those who have always been open with what they do have greater public support. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:26:09] <schestowitz>explain pls | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:29:40] <amarsh04>By working undercover so long and then outing himself, "Mark Kennedy" will have enemies both within the environmental movement (who I think would still have the decency to treat him as a human) and those in law enforcement (who may be inclined to let unpleasant things happen to him) | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:30:27] <schestowitz>I read your last remark as those who have always admitted being cops will have greater public support. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:30:29] <amarsh04>people like PJ and yourself may have people stalking you, but you both have far more people who support what you are doing. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:30:45] <schestowitz>In my case, it was not at some stage secret (any longer) that he also invaded BNP | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:30:51] <schestowitz>That's the far far right in the UK BTW | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:26] <schestowitz>stalking and spying by authorities is not the same thing though | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:33] <schestowitz>although both can be threats | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:34] <amarsh04>an honest and law abiding policeman will have support from the public | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:37] <amarsh04>no | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:50] <amarsh04>I was wondering what BNP was British Nationalist Party? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:31:55] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:32:06] <schestowitz>there are similar groups | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:32:09] <schestowitz>brb | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:37:38] <schestowitz>ok, back | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:37:59] <schestowitz>I think I might end up having techrights expose some of these affairs | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:38:05] <schestowitz>To warn some other groups I know about | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:38:21] <schestowitz>And I could get in some unpleasant situation for it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:38:22] <amarsh04>fair enough | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:38:40] <schestowitz>Another person suggested doing it quietly, but that would not be helpful or courageous | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:39:05] <schestowitz>Assuming I am right (about us, not the groups I know for a fact about), not talking about it would be a disservice to society | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:39:21] <schestowitz>Like some peaceful group that is being spied on... which I know about | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:39:35] <schestowitz>I have a lot of material but I think the name is fake | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:41:18] <amarsh04>being able to maintain a fake identidy is probably one of the main job requirements for the infiltrators | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:41:33] <schestowitz>it is | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:41:36] <schestowitz>And he told me so | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:42:27] <amarsh04>identity even | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:42:31] <schestowitz>One of the warning signs was a changing # of kids | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:43:00] <amarsh04>that's a good point... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:43:48] <schestowitz>Here's a question | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:43:55] <schestowitz>Let us say they live within a family | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:44:02] <schestowitz>Can there be role-playing within that? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:44:09] <schestowitz>Like wife playing along with fake name | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:46:54] <amarsh04>yes, I suppose, if she knows that for hubby to keep his job, he is "Mark Kennedy" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:47:14] <schestowitz>It wasn't Mark BTW | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:47:19] <schestowitz>Although they look similar | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:48:00] <schestowitz>I have given many details by now because I think that imminently I will do something similar to the posts about Florina... | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:48:14] <schestowitz>I think this person is multi-tasking | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:48:19] <schestowitz>Actually, I kind of know so | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:49:02] <schestowitz>which means that as a liberty activist I should not shy away in convenience but rather help blow the cover on the "War on activism" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:49:21] <schestowitz>I was appalled to see pro-nature folks being described as terrorists | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:49:35] <schestowitz>I also think they are provocateurs to characterise them this way | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:49:49] <amarsh04>what do you mean by multi-tasking? behaving with a separate identity in another channel at the same time? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:49:50] <schestowitz>Make accidents which then enable the press to paint them as dangerous | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:50:07] <schestowitz>amarsh: seeveral groups at same time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:50:14] <amarsh04>ah ok | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:50:29] <schestowitz>I also have reasons to suspect that other groups relates to wikileaks and p2p are targetted by the same person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:50:36] <schestowitz>Using assimilation tactics | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:54:25] <amarsh04>the .au greens mps are actually very good at showing that they are not anti-people but for the best environment for everyone | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:55:50] <schestowitz>Are they hounded at all? I think that they usually conform to rule, like David Hammerstein does | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:01] <amarsh04>perhaps the infiltrators as the stories on "Mark Kennedy" indicated actually try to make the activists appear to be extremists (in the sense of violence or destruction of property) so that peaceful people that might support the group drop their support | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:01] <schestowitz>Their problem is parties like Pirate Party | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:10] <schestowitz>They challenge some fundamental laws | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:27] <schestowitz>[15:56] <amarsh04> perhaps the infiltrators as the stories on "Mark Kennedy" indicated actually try to make the activists appear to be extremists (in the sense of violence or destruction of property) so that peaceful people that might support the group drop their support | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:28] <schestowitz>Yes | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:38] <schestowitz>I heard that Greenpeace has been poison-pilled too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:47] <schestowitz>But I was not given examples, they have a long history | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:56:54] <amarsh04>yes, that can happen | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:57:01] <schestowitz>Weirdly enough they also get funding from the sort of people they oppose now | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:57:22] <schestowitz>And we get more reports now of anti-tobacco companies which are actually just tobacco PR companies in disguise | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:57:24] <amarsh04>the pirate party doesn't seem to be very well supported in Australia | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:57:29] <schestowitz>gates funded at least one of those | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:57:59] <schestowitz>maybe the au pirate party got a bad name in the press | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:58:04] <schestowitz>the name does not help | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:58:12] <amarsh04>tobacco isn't a big industry in Australia so it doesn't have much of a lobby, but it is noticable when one party complains about another raising the tax on tobacco | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:58:21] <amarsh04>bushranger party? (-: | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:58:57] <schestowitz>techrights only began being more political in recent years, as the other person I spoke to pointed out | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:07] <schestowitz>This included a lot of criticism of the UK govt. | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:12] <amarsh04>the .au Greens just have to talk common sense without taking the bait of the major parties | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:13] <schestowitz>I know they talk about me in there | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:19] <schestowitz>Cause a journalist told me so | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:42] <schestowitz>They see me as an aggravater | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [15:59:54] <schestowitz>I was flattered enough by the recognition back in 2008 | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:00:35] <amarsh04>I do some stirring on forums.whirlpool.net.au - someone in the Department of Broadband Communications and the Digital Economy said that I had a "high profile" | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:01:08] <amarsh04>but I've not appeared on mainstream media beyond speaking to the communications minister on talk-back radio | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:02:16] <schestowitz>Bin Laden is "high profile" too | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:02:32] <amarsh04>funnily enough, no-one seems to be able to find him | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:02:34] <schestowitz>But there is usually another word after "high profile" and that's what matters | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:02:42] <amarsh04>target? | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:02:51] <schestowitz>Microsoft keeps lists of people | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:03:06] <schestowitz>I called it McCarthyism | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:03:12] <schestowitz>It's not a mental list | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:03:23] <schestowitz>It's a LIST list... table being passed around | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:03:30] <amarsh04>yes, a good term for it | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:04:45] <amarsh04>I hope that it is made clear to the younger folk which people were blacklisted in the .us (like composer Aaron Copland) and what effect it had on them, and how it made society poorer and more hostile | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:08:56] <amarsh04>I think my mum once went to hear Paul Robeson (African American singer and activist famous for singing "Old Man River")... his activism caused him to be shunned by some people in the .us | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:09:32] <schestowitz>some were assassinated | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:09:44] <schestowitz>That's the subject laterally brought up with the other person | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:10:24] <schestowitz>Making people disappear can be done with jail, ostracising them, smearing, intimidation, or death | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:10:42] <schestowitz>Some years ago I was close to quiting | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:11:53] <amarsh04>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Robeson is a good read | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:15:37] <schestowitz>"At the height of his career, Paul Robeson chose to become a political artist. In 1950, Robeson's passport was revoked under the McCarran Act over his work in the anti-imperialism movement and what the U.S. State Department called Robeson's " | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:15:41] <schestowitz>Reminds me of fischer | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:15:51] <amarsh04>I should get going... checking on some streetlights that ETSA Utilities and our Transport Department has been late in repairing | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:16:46] <amarsh04>the people who install or maintain the lights tend to be contractors who don't have an interest in doing proper installation and repair work, prefering to get further work patching up their earlier shoddy work | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:17:03] <schestowitz>thanks for chatting | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:17:24] <amarsh04>no problem, feel free to ask again any time | ||
| [Thursday 27 Jan 2011] [16:19:06] <amarsh04>closing channel... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:23:18] <schestowitz>ping | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:26:38] <jwildeboer>Yo | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:26:53] <jwildeboer>(slightly more private ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:27:26] <jwildeboer>My meeting starts in 7 min ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:27:46] <schestowitz>One person who is at the core of techrights is a police infiltrator spy | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:27:56] <schestowitz>Did you hear about "Mark Kennedy"? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:10] <jwildeboer>Doesn't ring a bell. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:16] <jwildeboer>Creepy ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:19] <schestowitz>Short story is, my response is what we're not sure about yet | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:25] <schestowitz>Wikileaks had them too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:46] <schestowitz>This one admits intruding groups, just doesn't say if ours is just outside work | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:50] <jwildeboer>Sounds normal. Lurking on ML or IRC is not really rocket science. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:58] <schestowitz> "Mark Kennedy" invaded green groups in the UK | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:28:59] <schestowitz>For years | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:16] <schestowitz>And I got some alarm bell after I was told some things this month | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:20] <jwildeboer>And you sure it's the real one and not an imposter? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:25] <schestowitz>Yes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:27] <schestowitz>He admits it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:42] <schestowitz>Unless his uniform was fake | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:29:43] <jwildeboer>If I can help, you can always call me on my mobile. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:30:01] <schestowitz>ok, but I wanted to warn and also to check if you got warnings | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:30:13] <jwildeboer>Nope, I am too transparent to be attacked ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:30:25] <jwildeboer>But will be watching carefully at FOSDEM. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:30:27] <schestowitz>Unlike Florry | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:30:47] <jwildeboer>Just finished a call with Geir from Apache Harmony project. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:12] <jwildeboer>He is writing an article to counter Florians claims. Gave him some background info that he really liked ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:24] <schestowitz>Nice | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:26] <jwildeboer>He promised me to keep my name out of it ofcourse ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:29] <schestowitz>Shadowy lobbyists | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:32] <schestowitz>Never liked em | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:39] <jwildeboer>The whole shebang, back from 2004 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:31:44] <schestowitz>You feed him too much in twitter, it gives him credibility | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:03] <jwildeboer>I have to, sometimes. There are bigger things in the background happening. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:13] <schestowitz>I KNOW | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:15] <schestowitz>oops | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:19] <schestowitz>CAPS was accidental | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:24] <jwildeboer>NO PROBLEM ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:27] <schestowitz>:-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:35] <schestowitz>Anyway, | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:37] <schestowitz>For the record | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:42] <schestowitz>I speak on PM now, very unusually | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:47] <jwildeboer>I will be back in max 30 min, meeting with VP to decide on my future in or outside RHT ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:32:57] <schestowitz>Because I cannot let it be known there was a spy found | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:33:06] <schestowitz>I might have to report it later | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:33:19] <schestowitz>RHT is a good company | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:33:28] <jwildeboer>I took a mental note. Can save more info if needed in secure place. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:33:49] <schestowitz>TR got a little political in 2010 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:33:54] <jwildeboer>RHT is special but not the holy grail. It's a good compromise ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:10] <schestowitz>It might get even more, as I collect more material and have WL add to my pool of info with proof | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:17] <jwildeboer>You have strong opinions and are stubborn - MeLikes ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:20] <schestowitz>jan, I'm in academia | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:26] <schestowitz>So I get my own lab to play in | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:48] <jwildeboer>Are you close to London? We should def meet next time I am in UK. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:34:54] <schestowitz>It has many benefits and a secure income too, without having to do what I saw as hurting society... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:14] <schestowitz>Jan, I will probably have some revelations about London soo | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:18] <schestowitz>*soon | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:24] <jwildeboer>We are part of the New Now - and the Old Now has a problem with that. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:31] <schestowitz>Yes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:34] <schestowitz>You should blog more | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:36] <schestowitz>I'm on RSS | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:46] <schestowitz>I'm also RSSchestwitz :-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:53] <jwildeboer>Hehe :-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:35:54] <schestowitz>Dents have lifetime of minutes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:36:03] <schestowitz>shelf life even | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:36:04] <jwildeboer>Gotta run to meeting room, I will be back. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:36:07] <schestowitz>Like water in the kettle | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:36:10] <schestowitz>ok | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:44:46] <schestowitz>http://identi.ca/notice/62914226 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [14:44:52] <schestowitz>@azuthian (azuthian)'s status on Tuesday, 25-Jan-11 14:39:53 UTC - Identi.ca: @schestowitz seems #mono lobbyists are trying to force #sparkleshare into !fedora | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:44:43] <jwildeboer>Back. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:48:37] <schestowitz>what did you agree on? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:48:44] <schestowitz>Stay or go? :-/ | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:48:48] <jwildeboer>IMHO we should work on a python/haskell heck even Brainfuck version of SparkleShare ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:49:04] <jwildeboer>Not yet decided. I have a startup calling for me with a very generous offer. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:49:42] <jwildeboer>But I am Shadowman - I even have a tattoo ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:50:32] <jwildeboer>Difficult decision. Startup == much Euros and possibly giant wad of cash if IPO. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:51:02] <jwildeboer>Red Hat == stable, fun and I have so much freedom here - and get so much back from community and RHT peeps. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:51:15] <jwildeboer>Tough call. I am undecided. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:51:45] <jwildeboer>So I poker very high and will talk to VP/CEO on friday. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:52:15] <schestowitz>the IS startup? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:52:50] <jwildeboer>Startup is in graph DB business. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:52:55] <schestowitz>You speak to Jim soon? He seems like a helluva CEO. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:52:58] <jwildeboer>Cannot disclose name ATM. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:53:27] <jwildeboer>Jim is OK. I liked Matthew more though. Matthew Szulik was crazy. In a good sense. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:01] <schestowitz>Looks like it. I wondered if "health" was excuse for him to step aside/down. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:16] <schestowitz>Anyway, Red Hat is not FSF | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:29] <schestowitz>It's more like IBM subsidiary in my eyes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:38] <schestowitz>IBM helps fund the FSF to keep the FSF quiet | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:45] <jwildeboer>Yep. He decided family tops company. His father was very ill at that time (still is) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:54:49] <schestowitz>Not giving flack to IBM for blobs | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:55:32] <jwildeboer>IBM is everything. It has no defined position. They can wrap one arm around you to cuddle and use the other arm to stomp a knife in your heart at the same time. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:55:52] <schestowitz>Still a huge company | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:55:59] <schestowitz>But increasingly Indian and Chinese | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:56:08] <schestowitz>I guess the "International" in IBM gives it away | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:56:11] <jwildeboer>IMHO IBM is a continent, not a company ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:56:13] <schestowitz>They also worked with the Nazos | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:56:43] <schestowitz>mincer and I joked about it last night in reference to Orban looking for companies to work with in IT | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:56:52] <jwildeboer>Ofcourse. Holerith machines were used everywhere at that time. Not only Nazis, also UK and other countries. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:08] <schestowitz>But you ruin the IBM smear story :-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:14] <schestowitz>Microsoft needs that one | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:22] <schestowitz>MSFT didn't exist back then | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:33] <schestowitz>Watch how much Microsoft helps the Chinese tyranny | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:39] <jwildeboer>Florian will soonish use that I guess ;-) Pulling a Godwin on Android ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:54] <schestowitz>WILL use? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:57:57] <schestowitz>He already has | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:00] <schestowitz>In my site | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:03] <jwildeboer>Really?!? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:06] <schestowitz>yup! | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:13] <schestowitz>Several times maybe | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:14] <jwildeboer>ROTFL. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:24] <jwildeboer>He is so lost. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:33] <schestowitz>He also accused their mainframes of causing plane crashes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:40] <schestowitz>Caused by Windows malware really | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:54] <schestowitz>you know his modus operandi, right? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:58:58] <jwildeboer>I always tell the IBM peeps in Brussels one thing: "Florian is his own biggest enemy. The more you support him, the faster he destroys himself." | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:03] <schestowitz>You know how he pasted the junk in papers... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:15] <schestowitz>I did make it public that he is spamming and smooching journos | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:23] <schestowitz>he keeps an ever-expanding list of e-mails | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:27] <schestowitz>Then personalises | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:34] <schestowitz>I think Zuck works similarly | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:39] <jwildeboer>You know, I somehow admire him. He is so stupid and braindead that it is rather funny to provoke him :-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:51] <schestowitz> /smooching/schmoozing/ | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [15:59:57] <jwildeboer>Zuck, Lueders, this weird SAP guy - all the same. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:06] <schestowitz>just don't ask him about tech | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:08] <schestowitz>But... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:13] <schestowitz>You said he's a .NET dev | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:16] <schestowitz>Does he develop at all? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:17] <jwildeboer>Yep. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:25] <schestowitz>I think he just wrote since younger days | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:00:38] <jwildeboer>Well - 2005 he was all over his revolutionary game he was developing. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:00] <jwildeboer>Reminds me of something. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:11] <jwildeboer>You know Florians book? No Lobbyists As Such? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:28] <schestowitz>Yeah, 404 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:29] <jwildeboer>His recap of SWPAT war? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:32] <schestowitz>The site is gone too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:38] <schestowitz>And it's sitll cited by the anti-GPLers | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:42] <schestowitz>Like AlexT | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:42] <jwildeboer>I have the PDFs ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:54] <jwildeboer>And I have his OK to redistribute ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:01:58] <schestowitz>The one who associates Moiglen and stuff with Marxism | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:02:07] <schestowitz>That's what Florry does not | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:02:10] <schestowitz>*now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:02:54] <jwildeboer>EvilPlan: Let's go through his book, find some juicy quotes that contradict his current stance and publish that every few days. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:03:11] <jwildeboer>Hehehe. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:03:32] <jwildeboer>We could setup a twitter/identi.ca account @florianSays ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:02] <schestowitz>That would be nice | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:06] <schestowitz>I was given his book too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:12] <schestowitz>SOmeone from Spain mailed it to me years ago | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:19] <schestowitz>However: | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:32] <schestowitz>bear in mind, Microsoft is known for hiring lawyers and lobbyists who worked against it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:35] <schestowitz>This silences them | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:41] <jwildeboer>I have the most current version AND his official OK to redistribute it on my site .... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:04:54] <schestowitz>I pointed this out many times in techrights, it's a pattern not unique to Microsoft | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:05:05] <schestowitz>This way it can remove critics from the 'gene pool', so to speak | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:05:17] <schestowitz>In Nigeria this is done a lot by oil companies | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:05:30] <schestowitz>I not only read about it but a Nigerian mate from Manc told me this too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:05:35] <jwildeboer>Don't forget - I controlled him in 2004/5. He never understood how much we used him ;-) (we == FFII) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:04] <schestowitz>He's used to being used | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:09] <schestowitz>Recently he was used by Monty | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:13] <schestowitz>$$ | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:13] <jwildeboer>Maybe I should sum up the "10 Most Typical Signs You Are Talking To A Mobbyist" in a blog entry. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:16] <schestowitz>Real Madrid | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:27] <schestowitz>He says he lobbies for what he believed in, for cash | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:31] <schestowitz>Dodged the Microsoft question | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:34] <schestowitz>But he uses Vista 7 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:35] <jwildeboer>Monty is weird, to put it mildly. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:41] <schestowitz>So that would not be against his principles | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:51] <schestowitz>Monty works with Microsoft too now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:06:58] <schestowitz>And Microsoft does the DB games well | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:07:08] <jwildeboer>Florian has a simple principle. He's a position whore. Pay him and he will bend. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:07:16] <schestowitz>-TRIdentica/#techrights-[joabj/@joabj] Microsoft offers SQL Server support for Drupal 7 (MSDN): http://bit.ly/etcmjH | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:07:54] <jwildeboer>MSFTs goal is to make windows the preferred platform for FOSS. Their logic is simple. Let FOSS use as much closed libraries as possible. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:07] <jwildeboer>MSFT will even cannibalize their own ISV ecosystem for this. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:28] <schestowitz>They do | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:35] <jwildeboer>If I would be a MSFT ISV that produces CMS systems, I would be extremely pissed about Drupal support. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:42] <schestowitz>but they have not done much about it, compared to 2008 | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:49] <schestowitz>They drop the ball, choose patents now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:52] <jwildeboer>The strategy failed. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:57] <schestowitz>yes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:08:59] <schestowitz>Hild left | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:03] <schestowitz>Then Ramji | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:06] <schestowitz>*Helf | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:10] <schestowitz>*Hilf | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:15] <schestowitz>He's in the server group now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:23] <schestowitz>They lost Muglia | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:31] <schestowitz>They still have Mundie around | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:35] <schestowitz>Maybe he's the next one to leave | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:09:38] <jwildeboer>At Red Hat we notice a growing trend of Win2Lin migration. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:10:31] <jwildeboer>Esp big stuff like SAP, but also a growing pool of corps interested in alternatives to Exchange etc. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:10:44] <schestowitz>We need strong presence in exposing Microsot | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:10:48] <schestowitz>We run out of voices | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:10:54] <schestowitz>PJ has a leg half our | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:10:59] <jwildeboer>Main reason not tech, BTW. Main reason is security and ease of sys management. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:04] <schestowitz>Since 2009 when she pondered quitting | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:09] <schestowitz>Microsoft paid Updegrove | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:13] <schestowitz>They gagged him this way | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:18] <schestowitz>Same strategy as with others | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:25] <schestowitz>Make contract, buh-bye critic | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:30] <jwildeboer>Microsoft paid everyone, I sometimes think. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:36] <schestowitz>And not many people even expose the infiltration anymore | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:46] <schestowitz>Even Brian Proffitt has gone weird | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:11:57] <schestowitz>And he helps Microsoft/SUSE/Florian sometimes | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:09] <schestowitz>Mono team is Microsoft-paid | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:13] <jwildeboer>I have seen people lose thei rmental health over MSFT lobbying. Sad stories. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:22] <schestowitz>That's a goal | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:30] <schestowitz>To make them look crzy | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:37] <schestowitz>People quote me on it out of context | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:45] <schestowitz>It's a legal manoeuvre | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:49] <schestowitz>Pulled on judges | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:12:54] <schestowitz>Sometimes by Microsoft too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:13:08] <schestowitz>If the other side is winning, you aggravate, then call for extreme reaction | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:13:23] <schestowitz>In some cases, govt. would slip drugs into dissidents' drinks | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:13:45] <jwildeboer>Lots of the stuff I do is not public. I have learned over the years how to neutralize the mobbyists in BRU. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:14:10] <jwildeboer>And it works. They are getting extremely aggressive now they note how they have lost. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:14:33] <jwildeboer>But they cannot attack Neelie ATM ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:14:40] <schestowitz>I got info on many, techrights shed some light on bad cockroaches | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:15:31] <schestowitz>It's not just about s/w | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:15:37] <schestowitz>Neelie also handles Orban now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:15:52] <schestowitz>We need to fight for liberty, as it is being lost | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:15:55] <schestowitz>Maybe not in Holland | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:06] <schestowitz>IIRC you're just based in Germany but are Dutch? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:18] <jwildeboer>Neelie is hardcore. She is not 100% in our camp but she def has a good gut feeling to separate the rights from the wrongs. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:19] <schestowitz>Neelie is Dutch AFAIK | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:32] <jwildeboer>I am dutch, Neelie is too. Correct. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:49] <schestowitz>Very innocent country | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:16:53] <jwildeboer>Neelie is in the extreme market liberals camp. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:02] <jwildeboer>That's why she loves open standards. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:04] <schestowitz>Even in its conquests to islands back in the olden days | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:18] <jwildeboer>RF means no transaction costs means ideal competition == good. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:22] <jwildeboer>That's her take. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:40] <schestowitz>Obama has ideals too | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:47] <jwildeboer>NL is not innocent. We killed thousands of indonesians in the 50/60s. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:17:51] <schestowitz>But he makes concessions for Republicans now | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:18:03] <schestowitz>So under pressure and threats they sometimes bend over | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:18:18] <jwildeboer>We were the market leaders in shipping slaves from Africa to the US in the 16/17th century. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:18:21] <schestowitz>Ah, indonesians... I once read about it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:18:43] <schestowitz>OK, let's just say you have good PR | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:19:03] <jwildeboer>Well - we have a saying in NL which perfectly describes our attitude. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:19:22] <jwildeboer>"God made the world. But the Netherlands we built ourselves." ;-) | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:19:50] <schestowitz>You never criticise NL/DE in identica | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:09] <jwildeboer>I dunno much about current poltics in NL. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:12] <schestowitz>US is the "big fish", but I try to be balanced | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:27] <schestowitz>I also take on little FOSS companies | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:32] <jwildeboer>But I criticise DE quite frequently, mostly in german though. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:41] <schestowitz>http://techrights.org/2011/01/24/black-duck-think-tank/#comments | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:20:46] <schestowitz>I hope you read it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:21:00] <schestowitz>Black Duck is trouble, it now runs the "think tank" on open source | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:21:27] <schestowitz>Groklaw too took some years to catch up with what the problem really is | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:21:31] <schestowitz>Also re Novell | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:21:41] <schestowitz>PJ is reluctant to give flak to too many companies | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:21:49] <schestowitz>She gets attacked if she does | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:22:03] <schestowitz>She avoids politics religiously for the same reasons, except in emails | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:22:18] <jwildeboer>It's not her job IMHO. She is sometimes a wee bit too emotional, which hurts her reputation. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:22:36] <schestowitz>and me? Emotional? | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:22:47] <schestowitz>Maybe it may seem that way | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:22:56] <schestowitz>Although I don't say words like "feel" or "I" | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:05] <schestowitz>I just make convictions blatant | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:16] <jwildeboer>I am emotional too sometimes. I typically grab a cigarette, wlak around the block and try to keep it under control. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:28] <schestowitz>Groklaw has prose and smiley faces | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:32] <schestowitz>I don't know why she does that | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:41] <schestowitz>[16:23] <jwildeboer> I am emotional too sometimes. I typically grab a cigarette, wlak around the block and try to keep it under control. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:44] <schestowitz>I just defer writing | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:23:50] <schestowitz>And post in bulk mode | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:24:01] <jwildeboer>But I have to be careful. As official Red Hat spokesperson my statements could have influence on our stock price yadda yadda. | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:24:27] <schestowitz>Emotion has short life span, I do work with the data after relevelation, since around 2008 when I used to post impulsively and immediately | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:25:12] <jwildeboer>It's one of the reasons I don not blog regularly. Quiet some drafts are really evil rants that need some polishing b4 I can publish them ... | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:25:37] <schestowitz>Self-censorship I call it | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:25:41] <schestowitz>You're not being yourself | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:25:50] <schestowitz>It was the same when I was a journalist for Datamation | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:26:04] <schestowitz>Bruce Byfield and Hartley are still there, but rarely | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:26:17] <schestowitz>James would take out paragraphs where I criticised Microsoft | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:26:28] <schestowitz>Later on I just didn't both -> self-censorship | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:26:42] <schestowitz>The pages all had massive MS ads... pages about Linux | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:27:37] <schestowitz>I left before this element of Old Press became deprecated anyway... and have had no authority over my writings since then... not even in academia | ||
| [Tuesday 25 Jan 2011] [16:29:08] <schestowitz>If you refrain from saying what you wish to say, then the system works as suppressor of particular speech, as we often see when new ideas get introduced (and are controversial at their time) | ||
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