Join us now at the IRC channel.
| *varna has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 15 01:07 | |
| *trmanco (~trmanco@d72-39-88-249.home1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 01:11 | |
| *trmanco has quit (Changing host) | Feb 15 01:11 | |
| *trmanco (~trmanco@unaffiliated/trmanco) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 01:11 | |
| *trmanco has quit (Client Quit) | Feb 15 01:12 | |
| *Ender2070 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Feb 15 03:40 | |
| *ender2070 (~ender2070@d72-38-0-183.commercial1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 04:02 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@132.177-27-211.dynamic.dsl.brs.iprimus.net.au) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 04:46 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Changing host) | Feb 15 04:46 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 04:46 | |
| *sebsebseb Is about to virtual machine Mageia Alpha 1 :) | Feb 15 04:46 | |
| schestowitz | [01:04] <tessier> I've renamed the machine techrights.org, hope you don't mind. Makes my monitoring stuff work better if I'm not using the outdated name all the time. | Feb 15 05:04 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | [05:04] <schestowitz> Excellent. | Feb 15 05:04 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: I saw that | Feb 15 05:05 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/lightweight/status/37280890803601408 | Feb 15 05:08 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @lightweight: @schestowitz thanks for the pointer. I (and quite a few others) are onto it :) | Feb 15 05:09 |
| schestowitz | NZ looks like fun | Feb 15 05:09 |
| schestowitz | "@lightweight did you see "Aptimize to file patents in race against exclusion Bill" http://ur1.ca/38rz8" | Feb 15 05:09 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.26 KB | Feb 15 05:09 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Mageia alpha 1 :) | Feb 15 05:15 |
| sebsebseb | still installing in my vm, getting there | Feb 15 05:16 |
| schestowitz | Nice! | Feb 15 05:31 |
| *ender2070 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 15 05:33 | |
| *Ender2070 (~Brandon@d72-38-0-183.commercial1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 05:46 | |
| *Ender2070 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Feb 15 06:02 | |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: I don't get very far after install and boot or part boot, but oh well that was fun anyway | Feb 15 06:29 |
| sebsebseb | I mean my vm gets aborted when it would be booting something else up, except I think it's not really meant to boot up KDE or Gnome yet anyway | Feb 15 06:30 |
| sebsebseb | even though it asked me which to install the installer | Feb 15 06:30 |
| sebsebseb | and when they say re branding, going by that they really do mean it, for example the Plymouth theme is very similar just yeah re branded | Feb 15 06:30 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5LcUui_u-U | Feb 15 06:49 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: YouTube - Derry taxi mans passat vs Buncrana phonebox.mp4 .::. Size~: 127.13 KB | Feb 15 06:49 |
| schestowitz | LOL | Feb 15 06:49 |
| *ender2070 (~ender2070@d72-38-0-183.commercial1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 07:08 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbnrzQ4aRt4 | Feb 15 07:20 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: YouTube - Egypt's Uncertain Future - Howard The Humongous - Episode 9 .::. Size~: 147.15 KB | Feb 15 07:20 |
| *ender2070 has quit (Read error: Operation timed out) | Feb 15 10:08 | |
| *ender2070 (~ender2070@d72-38-0-183.commercial1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 10:10 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Pheimer64/status/37453448622379008 | Feb 15 10:47 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @Pheimer64: @MaYoMo @schestowitz @silner #wapo where are you on this story? Are you supporting the Km and AMD?? | Feb 15 10:47 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/silner/status/37465680974450689 https://twitter.com/silner/status/37465799283183616 | Feb 15 11:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @silner: @Pheimer64 @MaYoMo @schestowitz To be honest it was hard to find reliable sources. I saw loads of conflicting reports all day. Confusing | Feb 15 11:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @silner: @Pheimer64 @MaYoMo @schestowitz I need to educate myself on the subject | Feb 15 11:04 |
| *MinceR_ (~mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 12:24 | |
| *MinceR has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Feb 15 12:25 | |
| *MinceR_ is now known as MinceR | Feb 15 12:26 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Feb 15 14:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://identi.ca/notice/64557389 | Feb 15 16:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @Dr. Roy Schestowitz (schestowitz)'s status on Tuesday, 15-Feb-11 15:57:58 UTC - Identi.ca: ♻ @zoobab: Just bought Nokiaplanp.com, P like Patents. Send me your ideas for a cool page. http://ur1.ca/392x8 http://ur1.ca/392xc | Feb 15 16:04 |
| schestowitz | ***** | Feb 15 16:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | -> Title: Nokia and Software Patents .::. Size~: 212.39 KB | Feb 15 16:04 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | -> Title: Search patents .::. Size~: 415.91 KB | Feb 15 16:04 |
| *ender2070 has quit (*.net *.split) | Feb 15 17:56 | |
| *ChanServ has quit (*.net *.split) | Feb 15 17:56 | |
| *MinceR has quit (*.net *.split) | Feb 15 17:56 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (*.net *.split) | Feb 15 17:56 | |
| *MinceR (~mincer@94-21-10-199.pool.digikabel.hu) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:06 | |
| *ender2070 (~ender2070@d72-38-0-183.commercial1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:10 | |
| *ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:11 | |
| *calvino.freenode.net gives channel operator status to ChanServ | Feb 15 18:11 | |
| *ChanServ has quit (*.net *.split) | Feb 15 18:11 | |
| *roy_ (~schestowi) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:11 | |
| *ChanServ (ChanServ@services.) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:23 | |
| *calvino.freenode.net gives channel operator status to ChanServ | Feb 15 18:23 | |
| *MinceR has quit (Changing host) | Feb 15 18:25 | |
| *MinceR (~mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:25 | |
| *gnufreex (~quassel@93-87-115-248.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 18:43 | |
| *roy_ is now known as schestowitz | Feb 15 18:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/qu1j0t3/status/37618146890354688 | Feb 15 21:17 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @cselley: Actual elephant sanctuary disclaimer: "Adoptions are in name only. The animal does not actually go home with you." http://bit.ly/kg12S | Feb 15 21:17 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | -> Title: Performing Animal Welfare Society -- PAWS .::. Size~: 53.93 KB | Feb 15 21:17 |
| schestowitz | LOL | Feb 15 21:18 |
| MinceR | :) | Feb 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | I saw funnier ones | Feb 15 21:18 |
| schestowitz | http://geraldcelentechannel.blogspot.com/2011/02/goldman-sachs-behind-food-crisis.html | Feb 15 21:20 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Goldman Sachs behind Food Crisis Worldwide ? | Gerald Celente Trends Blog .::. Size~: 261.08 KB | Feb 15 21:20 |
| *trmanco (~trmanco@d72-39-88-249.home1.cgocable.net) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 21:39 | |
| *trmanco has quit (Changing host) | Feb 15 21:39 | |
| *trmanco (~trmanco@unaffiliated/trmanco) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 21:39 | |
| trmanco | qu1j0t3, do you know anywhere else phirce is used? | Feb 15 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Not yet... but it's possible | Feb 15 21:42 |
| schestowitz | 4 channels at the moment | Feb 15 21:42 |
| trmanco | yes, your channel right? | Feb 15 21:43 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Feb 15 21:43 |
| trmanco | I was just curious | Feb 15 21:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | trmanco: no | Feb 15 21:44 |
| trmanco | ok | Feb 15 21:44 |
| schestowitz | how's the tuna doing, trmanco | Feb 15 21:46 |
| trmanco | I haven't started yet | Feb 15 21:47 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: trmanco is raising tuna in a container | Feb 15 21:47 |
| schestowitz | [his stomach!] | Feb 15 21:47 |
| MinceR | lol | Feb 15 21:47 |
| trmanco | I ran out of tuna... didn't have enough for the week | Feb 15 21:47 |
| schestowitz | I had 3 today... | Feb 15 21:47 |
| schestowitz | I need to buy more tomorrow | Feb 15 21:47 |
| trmanco | if I can eat one per day. I'm happy | Feb 15 21:47 |
| trmanco | I'll build on that | Feb 15 21:47 |
| schestowitz | how's workout? | Feb 15 21:50 |
| trmanco | for now, all I do is pushups :/ | Feb 15 21:50 |
| schestowitz | That's good | Feb 15 21:50 |
| trmanco | I'll buy a membership later on this year | Feb 15 21:50 |
| trmanco | and start squats | Feb 15 21:50 |
| trmanco | I'm just waiting for some of the new years resolutioner's to give up | Feb 15 21:51 |
| schestowitz | you can change xorg | Feb 15 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Set the resolution how you like it better | Feb 15 21:51 |
| trmanco | pff | Feb 15 21:52 |
| MinceR | :> | Feb 15 21:52 |
| MinceR | xrandr seems to be more comfortable | Feb 15 21:52 |
| trmanco | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_resolution | Feb 15 21:52 |
| trmanco | :P | Feb 15 21:52 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: New Year's resolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 37.57 KB | Feb 15 21:52 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: cron it | Feb 15 21:53 |
| schestowitz | add to root's crontab 0 0 1 1 * cp /etc/X11/xorg.conf.new /etc/X11/xorg.conf :-D | Feb 15 21:55 |
| MinceR | that won't have an effect until you restart your x server, though :> | Feb 15 21:57 |
| MinceR | or not even then, if it doesn't use xorg.conf anymore | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | depends on distro | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | I"LL DENT IT | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | oops | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | CAPS | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | Bad keyboard day | Feb 15 21:57 |
| schestowitz | I'll replace it this month, I think | Feb 15 21:57 |
| trmanco | the key or the keyboard? :P | Feb 15 21:58 |
| schestowitz | the keyboard | Feb 15 22:01 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, latest trunk fixes problems with blank content type headers | Feb 15 22:11 |
| qu1j0t3 | ...which are seen with MinceR's reddit links | Feb 15 22:12 |
| MinceR | :) | Feb 15 22:12 |
| MinceR | so redd.it links will work OK now? | Feb 15 22:12 |
| trmanco | try them with www or without www | Feb 15 22:13 |
| trmanco | we tried the un-shortened ones | Feb 15 22:13 |
| MinceR | http://redd.it/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:13 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting type | Feb 15 22:13 |
| MinceR | www is unsupported on that domain | Feb 15 22:13 |
| MinceR | http://www.reddit.com/tb/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:13 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: I always wondered what the other half was via reddit.com .::. Size~: 1.64 KB | Feb 15 22:13 |
| MinceR | toolbar link still works | Feb 15 22:13 |
| trmanco | http://www.redd.it/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:14 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Error processing the URL | Feb 15 22:14 |
| trmanco | lol | Feb 15 22:14 |
| trmanco | http://reddit.com/tb/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:14 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: I always wondered what the other half was via reddit.com .::. Size~: 1.64 KB | Feb 15 22:14 |
| trmanco | hmmm | Feb 15 22:14 |
| trmanco | qu1j0t3, did reddit fix this? | Feb 15 22:14 |
| qu1j0t3 | in the past few days? doubt it. :) | Feb 15 22:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | but that content isn't useful anyway | Feb 15 22:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR | http://redd.it/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:15 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting type | Feb 15 22:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting type | Feb 15 22:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | ^^ this | Feb 15 22:15 |
| MinceR | i never checked how the redd.it links actually do the redirection | Feb 15 22:16 |
| MinceR | it uses 301 | Feb 15 22:17 |
| MinceR | (Moved Permanently) | Feb 15 22:17 |
| MinceR | and then a 302 (Moved Temporarily) | Feb 15 22:18 |
| MinceR | a bit more circuitous than it needs to be :> | Feb 15 22:18 |
| MinceR | the frameset has a funny comment :) | Feb 15 22:21 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: trmanco should I install latest version now? | Feb 15 22:21 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: eventually it gets a 200, but with missing content-type. | Feb 15 22:21 |
| MinceR | ic | Feb 15 22:21 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Microsoft will 'pull a Plurk' on trmanco's IRC software one day | Feb 15 22:22 |
| MinceR | hm, Live HTTP headers tells me the 302 and the 200 both have a text/html Conte-tType | Feb 15 22:22 |
| MinceR | s/-t/nt-/ | Feb 15 22:22 |
| qu1j0t3 | $ curl -I http://www.reddit.com/tb/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:23 |
| qu1j0t3 | HTTP/1.1 200 OK | Feb 15 22:24 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: I always wondered what the other half was via reddit.com .::. Size~: 1.64 KB | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes. | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | hm, i wonder if this is an issue with php curl ext | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | i'll look some more. | Feb 15 22:24 |
| trmanco | qu1j0t3, that link works | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's not putting it where we would expect it. | Feb 15 22:24 |
| trmanco | wrong link | Feb 15 22:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes, that one does. | Feb 15 22:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | http://redd.it/ew7w3 | Feb 15 22:25 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting type | Feb 15 22:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | ^^ this doesn't put the content-type where we expect it. | Feb 15 22:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | but it coul dbe a curl ext problem. | Feb 15 22:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | clearly it's in the headers if you run curl manually | Feb 15 22:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | as MinceR says | Feb 15 22:25 |
| MinceR | strangely enough the 302 does have some content | Feb 15 22:25 |
| MinceR | i wonder what it is | Feb 15 22:26 |
| trmanco | interesting | Feb 15 22:29 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: check out NYT headline: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/13/opinion/13rich.html | Feb 15 22:33 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | SSL certificate problem, verify that the CA cert is OK. Details: | Feb 15 22:33 |
| trmanco | :S | Feb 15 22:34 |
| qu1j0t3 | hehe yes. | Feb 15 22:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | schestowitz: Rich isn't bad. | Feb 15 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Manhattan! :-) | Feb 15 22:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | trmanco: yeah not sure about this one, i haven't investigated. | Feb 15 22:36 |
| schestowitz | http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/12/AR2011021202502.html?nav=rss_business/industries | Feb 15 22:36 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Federal investigators expose vast web of insider trading .::. Size~: 97.84 KB | Feb 15 22:36 |
| schestowitz | All profitable investments seem to involve inside knowledge | Feb 15 22:36 |
| schestowitz | it's all ripe to fraud | Feb 15 22:36 |
| trmanco | but there is nothing SSL in the link | Feb 15 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Welcome to FraudStreet, where innocent people put their money for the vulture to take, just like in casinos | Feb 15 22:37 |
| trmanco | I had this problem with https links because of something related to openssl | Feb 15 22:37 |
| schestowitz | 'Socialising' the poor people's wealth, for those who are 'social' (of class) | Feb 15 22:37 |
| qu1j0t3 | curl by default wants to verify ssl certs | Feb 15 22:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | so on cli you have to ask it not to. | Feb 15 22:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | of course this may not be related... | Feb 15 22:38 |
| trmanco | just tell curl to skip ssl checks | Feb 15 22:39 |
| trmanco | CURLOPT_SSL_VERIFYPEER | Feb 15 22:41 |
| trmanco | to false | Feb 15 22:41 |
| trmanco | and CURLOPT_SSL_VERIFYHOST | Feb 15 22:42 |
| qu1j0t3 | ok. | Feb 15 22:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | maybe that will solve the nyt thing :) | Feb 15 22:44 |
| trmanco | that dom class you used is pretty neat | Feb 15 22:45 |
| trmanco | :) | Feb 15 22:45 |
| trmanco | I was unaware you can do that with php | Feb 15 22:45 |
| trmanco | qu1j0t3, what other programming/scripting languages are you familiar with? | Feb 15 22:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | at various times c, perl, bash, python, java, c++, erlang, etc | Feb 15 22:55 |
| qu1j0t3 | i'm learning scheme atm | Feb 15 22:55 |
| qu1j0t3 | want to explore more fp langs like SML ... i have a really smart mentor in this area | Feb 15 22:56 |
| qu1j0t3 | but little time :| | Feb 15 22:56 |
| trmanco | I started off with pascal :/ | Feb 15 23:05 |
| MinceR | i started with Sinclair ZX Spectrum BASIC | Feb 15 23:05 |
| trmanco | them went to basic | Feb 15 23:06 |
| trmanco | Vbasic :/ not proud... | Feb 15 23:06 |
| MinceR | then i went to QBasic and then Turbo/Borland Pascal | Feb 15 23:06 |
| trmanco | then | Feb 15 23:06 |
| trmanco | c | Feb 15 23:07 |
| MinceR | and then x86 assembly, C++, perl, python (and there was c and java somewhere in there) | Feb 15 23:07 |
| trmanco | which I never got really into | Feb 15 23:07 |
| MinceR | (well, that x86 assembly was mostly just 8086 assembly) | Feb 15 23:07 |
| trmanco | assembly, I can't touch thaat :P | Feb 15 23:08 |
| trmanco | I'll burn my finger tips with it | Feb 15 23:08 |
| trmanco | then php -> future python or ruby | Feb 15 23:09 |
| qu1j0t3 | yeah similar here, except i never did x86 asm | Feb 15 23:11 |
| qu1j0t3 | basic -> asm -> pascal -> c -> ... | Feb 15 23:11 |
| qu1j0t3 | z80, 6502 asm, mostly. | Feb 15 23:11 |
| qu1j0t3 | and more recently pic18, pdp-11 and so on | Feb 15 23:11 |
| qu1j0t3 | did a lot of pascal on Mac before changing to C (along with everyone else) | Feb 15 23:12 |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 23:12 | |
| MinceR | i typed in z80 machine code but didn't understand much of it back then :) | Feb 15 23:13 |
| *qu1j0t3 wishes he had his old books | Feb 15 23:13 | |
| trmanco | http://gigamonkeys.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/coders-c-plus-plus/ | Feb 15 23:14 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: C++ in Coders at Work « A billion monkeys can't be wrong .::. Size~: 48.84 KB | Feb 15 23:14 |
| MinceR | :> | Feb 15 23:14 |
| MinceR | jwz is a nutcase | Feb 15 23:14 |
| MinceR | when he finally snapped he switched to macos | Feb 15 23:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | then he bitched about it | Feb 15 23:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | constantly | Feb 15 23:15 |
| MinceR | :> | Feb 15 23:15 |
| oiaohm | C++ does have its issues | Feb 15 23:15 |
| MinceR | all languages do | Feb 15 23:16 |
| MinceR | but c++ is like x, it's often dissed by people who don't understand it and rarely by those who do :> | Feb 15 23:16 |
| qu1j0t3 | eh | Feb 15 23:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: X is being piece by piece cut apart so it can die. | Feb 15 23:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: nobody fully understands C++ | Feb 15 23:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | that's one of its problems | Feb 15 23:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: x remains the foundation of the modern unix desktop. | Feb 15 23:17 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: Not true | Feb 15 23:17 |
| MinceR | qu1j0t3: i think Stroustroup would differ | Feb 15 23:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's easy to prove | Feb 15 23:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | Stroustrup? heh | Feb 15 23:17 |
| MinceR | however it's spelled :) | Feb 15 23:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: And in 3 years time that will not be true anymore. | Feb 15 23:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | so you guys aren't familiar with the books of Sutter, Alexandrescu and so on? | Feb 15 23:18 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: Problem number 1 with C++ is compliers and standard writers don't writing how mangling will be done. | Feb 15 23:18 |
| qu1j0t3 | read one, and then tell me people can internalise it. | Feb 15 23:18 |
| MinceR | qu1j0t3: i'm not that up-to-date in the "let's dismiss c++ because it's the fashionable thing to do" area :> | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: i'm not dissing it because it's fashionable to diss it, | Feb 15 23:24 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: Problem two applys to most languages with garbage collections. Most compliers are crap at it. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | but believe what you like. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | i said this: | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | "One of the problems with C++ is that it cannot be fully internalised." | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | mangling is the issue of the compiler and the linker :> | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | something that is easy to prove. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | as for garbage collection, c++ doesn't come with that | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | qu1j0t3: well, where's the proof? | Feb 15 23:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: garbage collection methods are in the C++ standard. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | Sutter and Alexandrescu 's entire careers are studying C++ and writing books about it. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even one sneaked into C | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | you don't have to spent much time with any of these experts befor eyou realise that you cannot know all of the language. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | you can learn a subset, of course. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: is it in a standard library? | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | and even know a subset pretty well | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | qu1j0t3: what's wrong with knowing the most important parts, knowing what else exists and referring to manuals? | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: that's what everybody does. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | did you memorize the libc manual too? | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | there's nothing "wrong with it", as it's the only way to proceed. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| *MinceR is too lazy to memorize anything he doesn't use often | Feb 15 23:24 | |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: yes, you can internalise C, the language. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | so what? | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | that's a difference. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | C can't do a lot of things that are useful | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | such as OOP or generic programming | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | coolio. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | complexity can be a problem. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | note, i'm not defending C. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | i don't think it's a good idea to throw out features just because it makes the language smaller | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | case in point: java 4 and earlier. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | i didn't propose that either. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| MinceR | no generics meant containers were a complete mess. | Feb 15 23:24 |
| *qu1j0t3 goes back to work in an almost-perfect language: PHP | Feb 15 23:24 | |
| MinceR | LOL | Feb 15 23:24 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Feb 15 23:25 | |
| qu1j0t3 | Quadrescence: don't you agree? | Feb 15 23:25 |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 23:25 | |
| Quadrescence | It is quite great as a meta-html language. | Feb 15 23:25 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: For a fair while I was working on finding and get issues fixed in mingw with C++ | Feb 15 23:26 |
| oiaohm | So I got to know C++ more than I would have liked. Particularly that the standard is super badly flawed. | Feb 15 23:26 |
| qu1j0t3 | i used to use ming2 | Feb 15 23:26 |
| qu1j0t3 | mingw* | Feb 15 23:26 |
| MinceR | i used it last year | Feb 15 23:27 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: this guy isn't a big fan either http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/defective.html | Feb 15 23:27 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: C++ FQA Lite: Defective C++ .::. Size~: 45.31 KB | Feb 15 23:27 |
| oiaohm | If writing a language standard never forget to declare how runtime parts should link to each other. | Feb 15 23:27 |
| qu1j0t3 | but standardisation is a bit of a race to the bottom, isn't it, Quadrescence | Feb 15 23:27 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: you need to see what linus said on it. | Feb 15 23:28 |
| qu1j0t3 | well, his position is fairly well known... | Feb 15 23:28 |
| trmanco | http://love2d.org/ | Feb 15 23:29 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: LÖVE - Free 2D Game Engine .::. Size~: 9.68 KB | Feb 15 23:29 |
| trmanco | this looks interesting | Feb 15 23:29 |
| *oiaohm_ (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Feb 15 23:30 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Disconnected by services) | Feb 15 23:31 | |
| oiaohm_ | Great connection trouble at the wrong time. | Feb 15 23:32 |
| oiaohm_ | qu1j0t3: You know how asm programs say they can beat complier. It is true some of the time. | Feb 15 23:32 |
| MinceR | if you think you can optimize for a modern CPU better than a modern compiler can :> | Feb 15 23:32 |
| oiaohm_ | qu1j0t3: The more complex language you have for a complier the worse it can screw up optimsing it. | Feb 15 23:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Take hello world. few kb standard from gcc. Yet asm it under 100 bytes. MinceR | Feb 15 23:33 |
| oiaohm_ | MinceR: on Linux | Feb 15 23:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Its really the sign of why asm guys can sometime win. | Feb 15 23:34 |
| MinceR | hello world is hardly a typical application | Feb 15 23:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Problem is quite simple. Reason why default hello world from gcc is over sized. Is that even that argument processing is not used it is still linked in. | Feb 15 23:34 |
| oiaohm_ | This fault appears many times over. | Feb 15 23:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Lets init vars and functionality that the program will never use. | Feb 15 23:35 |
| oiaohm_ | So leading to higher memory usage and speed hits. | Feb 15 23:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Providing a door for asm coders todo crap code really and be smaller and faster at times. | Feb 15 23:35 |
| MinceR | i'm not saying that supporting hand-coded asm is bad | Feb 15 23:36 |
| MinceR | i'm saying that it's usually a bad idea, even for performance | Feb 15 23:36 |
| oiaohm_ | hard coded asm is normally bad. | Feb 15 23:37 |
| oiaohm_ | Because cpu's do change so what is required and where does change. | Feb 15 23:37 |
| MinceR | do you even know how many pipelines your cpu has and what constraints apply to them? :> | Feb 15 23:37 |
| oiaohm_ | So asm that is perfect for one x86 cpu is badly performing for another. | Feb 15 23:37 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_ | Its really the sign of why asm guys can sometime win. <-- if executable size is the criterion. but THAT example is about boilerplate. so it shows very little. | Feb 15 23:37 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's a very bad example. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | but in fact, the topic is uninteresting. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | utterly. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| oiaohm_ | qu1j0t3: speed of performance of that hello world is also faster. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| oiaohm_ | And the issue also applies to glibc | Feb 15 23:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: like i said. bad, uninteresting example. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| oiaohm_ | And many other items. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| oiaohm_ | include gtk and qt. | Feb 15 23:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | i'm not interested in any debate along the lines "can hand asm beat a compiler". | Feb 15 23:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's simply a waste of time | Feb 15 23:38 |
| oiaohm_ | It you notice issue. qu1j0t3 | Feb 15 23:39 |
| oiaohm_ | That I was point to. | Feb 15 23:39 |
| oiaohm_ | Find me a complier that truely strips out invalid allocation of items that never will be used. | Feb 15 23:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | why>? | Feb 15 23:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | i have no dog in this fight. | Feb 15 23:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | in fact, i am not even at the fight. | Feb 15 23:40 |
| trmanco | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuna#Nutrition_and_health | Feb 15 23:40 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Tuna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 131.99 KB | Feb 15 23:40 |
| qu1j0t3 | i'm making a coffee... | Feb 15 23:40 |
| trmanco | "Canned tuna is a prominent component in many weight trainers' diets, as it is high in protein and easily prepared. | Feb 15 23:40 |
| trmanco | " | Feb 15 23:40 |
| trmanco | :) | Feb 15 23:40 |
| oiaohm_ | Some forth compliers qu1j0t3 can do it right. | Feb 15 23:40 |
| qu1j0t3 | trmanco: if you're REALLY good, you eat it can and all. | Feb 15 23:40 |
| MinceR | lol | Feb 15 23:40 |
| trmanco | nice one | Feb 15 23:40 |
| oiaohm_ | What I am saying is the only reason hand coded asm can win qu1j0t3 most case is the compliers have a issue. | Feb 15 23:41 |
| trmanco | Chuck Norris could open a can of tuna with a blink of en eye | Feb 15 23:41 |
| MinceR | chuck norris is a christian fundamentalist | Feb 15 23:41 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: sure. | Feb 15 23:42 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: rly? | Feb 15 23:42 |
| oiaohm_ | qu1j0t3: and the sad part is notice you said that hello world example is trival. Most of the issues show themselves most clearly in highly trival examples. | Feb 15 23:43 |
| oiaohm_ | qu1j0t3: that complier developers just sweep under rug. | Feb 15 23:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: yes, hello world demonstrates SOME dimensions of the difference. | Feb 15 23:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: but the bottom line is, it's not interesting to me, any of these questions. | Feb 15 23:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: most of it is obvious | Feb 15 23:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: boilerplate. compilers are bureaucratic. | Feb 15 23:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: but i'm not solving problems where this matters. | Feb 15 23:44 |
| MinceR | qu1j0t3: yes. | Feb 15 23:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | MinceR: well. | Feb 15 23:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet you brought up people complaining about C++. qu1j0t3 | Feb 15 23:45 |
| oiaohm_ | What I am point out lot of issues of C++ are far broader and deeper problems. | Feb 15 23:45 |
| oiaohm_ | That have been just left there. | Feb 15 23:45 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm_: well i agree. | Feb 15 23:45 |
| qu1j0t3 | but in the end, php pays my bills :/ | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | so I can't say very much eh :D | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | (currently) | Feb 15 23:46 |
| oiaohm_ | Yep particualarly with php 2 c++ converter in existance. | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | hiphop, well, we don't need it or use it. | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | our headaches come from the framework dumbness | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | and management | Feb 15 23:46 |
| qu1j0t3 | (lack of) | Feb 15 23:46 |
| oiaohm_ | Would not be better word lack of direction. | Feb 15 23:47 |
| oiaohm_ | There is such thing as over management. | Feb 15 23:47 |
| qu1j0t3 | yeah direction,etc. it's horrible. | Feb 15 23:47 |
| oiaohm_ | Where you can not fart without a manager asking you why. | Feb 15 23:47 |
| qu1j0t3 | i don't mean 'management' in that sense | Feb 15 23:48 |
| qu1j0t3 | more the directional sense, i guess. | Feb 15 23:48 |
| qu1j0t3 | oh well. | Feb 15 23:48 |
| oiaohm_ | I have always been very careful to avoid using lack of with management | Feb 15 23:48 |
| oiaohm_ | and state the problem. You have to presume managers are dumb and will take it the wrong way. | Feb 15 23:49 |
| trmanco | http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgc10tMhHn1qznqcqo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1297870802&Signature=9R2PpAtijx4d7m6fqeYKkWIV3aE%3D | Feb 15 23:49 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type | Feb 15 23:49 |
| trmanco | jeez | Feb 15 23:50 |
| trmanco | giant link :/ | Feb 15 23:50 |
| MinceR | hugeurl | Feb 15 23:51 |
| oiaohm_ | trmanco: Really we should not joke about thinks like that. There is every chance that we will wake up one day and Apple has done that. | Feb 15 23:51 |
| MinceR | gn | Feb 15 23:51 |
| qu1j0t3 | nite | Feb 15 23:51 |
| oiaohm_ | But its more likely to be called iwater | Feb 15 23:51 |
| trmanco | lol | Feb 15 23:52 |
| trmanco | gn | Feb 15 23:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Ok I just had apt package management be stupid. | Feb 15 23:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Uninstalling 1 application and it just installed a dependancy as if it was install it then uninstalled the program as asked. | Feb 15 23:55 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's becoming sentient | Feb 15 23:55 |
| oiaohm_ | This system has only been installed for over 10 years. | Feb 15 23:56 |
| oiaohm_ | So it might be starting to suffer from a little bit of old age. | Feb 15 23:57 |
| oiaohm_ | And I have never compacted the package database either. | Feb 15 23:57 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
