Join us now at the IRC channel.
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| schestowitz | Trolls advertise the latest articles LOL | Jun 03 02:07 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/a5bfa54649147459# | Jun 03 02:07 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: comp.os.linux.advocacy | Google Groups .::. Size~: 42.38 KB | Jun 03 02:07 |
| schestowitz | BTW, one of them was lurking quietly in the IRC channels | Jun 03 02:08 |
| schestowitz | He ran away | Jun 03 02:08 |
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| schestowitz | http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/browse_frm/thread/68e7137908dbfe64# | Jun 03 02:11 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: comp.os.linux.advocacy | Google Groups .::. Size~: 42.38 KB | Jun 03 02:11 |
| schestowitz | This might be a pseudo-nym | Jun 03 02:33 |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=prinz-krote | Jun 03 02:33 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: prinz-krote - Google Search .::. Size~: 78.94 KB | Jun 03 02:33 |
| schestowitz | Can't find anything else on the Web with this name | Jun 03 02:33 |
| schestowitz | But the message was sent from Germany with a German address... although made with Windows and sent via Outlook | Jun 03 02:33 |
| schestowitz | A tad baffling | Jun 03 02:33 |
| schestowitz | Reminds me of some messages previously sent to me from China | Jun 03 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/76533939988205568 | Jun 03 08:15 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @yuhong2: @schestowitz I agree with you that I really hope they will not renew the portion of the MS-Novell deal that taxed Linux. | Jun 03 08:15 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/yuhong2/status/76534975738036224 | Jun 03 08:15 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | @yuhong2: @schestowitz It is unfortunate that Attachmate has said almost nothing about it so far. I have been following it on Groklaw. | Jun 03 08:15 |
| schestowitz | Our 'friend' | Jun 03 08:15 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > hi roy!! | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > what did that want from you!!IBM you said you conversed with them for | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > one hour !! | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > i really interested in you and what you do | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | > so forgive me my curiosity! | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | Yesterday their vice president contacted me. He has known me for years as he is concerned about what I write about the company. I am not a big IBM proponent and IBM works in mysterious ways. | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:19 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | > Hi Roy | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | > Apologies for not being in touch sooner, I leave today for Latin America | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | > for a month. I will drop you a line when I get back. | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | Hi problem. Peter told me you had an illness, so I understand. | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | I look forward to heating from you. | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | Hehe | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | THis is getting silly... | Jun 03 08:20 |
| schestowitz | I think ibm will be getting a lot of slapping soon | Jun 03 08:21 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > Grüß Gott Herr Schestowitz! | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > Yes, your always welcome to redistribute, post and share with your audience, as the whole point to this is to inform, adjust and improve the effort, so that everyone can learn or gain from our mistakes and or perceptions. If nobody dared to make any mistakes, there would be very little if any progress made. Of course, it helps if "people" explain the bases of their thinking, so that other individuals can better understand. | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > I think your former past U.S. President, the late John F. Kennedy said it best, "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth—persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." | Jun 03 08:31 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > That's mostly because a lie may be shown to be untruth by the application of logic and reason whereas a myth is more resilient to such methodology. Myths allow an idealized conception: a set of often idealized or glamorized ideas and stories surrounding a particular phenomenon, concept, or famous person; and may include a false belief: such as a widely held but mistaken belief; and a fictitious person or thing: somebody who | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | or something that is fictitious or nonexistent, but whose existence is widely believed in! | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > This analogy actually have a lot in common with another great American named "Mark Twain". Whom said, "What gets us into trouble is not what we don’t know, it’s what we know for sure, that just ain’t so." Which former U.S. Vice President Al Gore has often repeated. | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > It is good that you don't deny the interpretation from other view points. Even in Germany, there is much room to openly discuss matters, as a means to workout indifferences and come to a better understanding. So your most welcome to share your thoughts in confidence and establish your point of view. In fact, I encourage you to put forth any evidence, facts or just your thoughts, on the subject. | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > When you mention that you hold a different point of view (don't agree) please state your reason and explain your point of view. What do you know and why would you had come to a different understanding based upon what evidence, process of determining your conclusions? | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Isn't intellectual freedom the right of an individual to both seek and receive information from all points of view without restriction? It provides for free access of all expressions of ideas through which any and all sides of a question, cause or movement may be explored, right? | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Freedom of the mind requires not only, or not even especially, the absence of legal constraints but the presence of alternative thoughts. The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity, but the one that removes awareness of other possibilities. | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Alles gute mein freund, | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | " | Jun 03 08:32 |
| schestowitz | people who are smart don;'t get rich, they get ethical | Jun 03 08:59 |
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| msb_ | schestowitz: Very good high-level ideas here!!! | Jun 03 12:25 |
| msb_ | We are under enormous pressure to believe what we are told and what the people around us think (who believe what they have been told). So we must make the necessary effort to understand how our mind works, and where we our beliefs come from. | Jun 03 12:31 |
| MinceR | we're lucky then that most of the people around us don't think at all :> | Jun 03 12:32 |
| msb_ | We must then test our beliefs -- our model of reality -- against the various alternative models of reality that we can find. | Jun 03 12:33 |
| msb_ | It may turn out that our model is as inaccurate as Neo's before he was awakened out of the Matrix. | Jun 03 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Really beliving what you are told without evidences means you don't believe in science. | Jun 03 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Really science everything is just a theory that has not been proven wrong yet. | Jun 03 12:35 |
| msb_ | The mainstream belief system about the US government and its supposed furthering of democracy, which floods us from TV, newspapers, etc., is in fact just that inaccurate. | Jun 03 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Depends where you are from. | Jun 03 12:36 |
| oiaohm | Lot of Australians don't trust the USA. | Jun 03 12:36 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Right. Here in the US we are flooded and smothered with that system of deception. | Jun 03 12:36 |
| oiaohm | Most because the USA mil manuals is stupid. | Jun 03 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Ie the idea that soldiers don't have a right to think. | Jun 03 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Australian forces training is mostly about how to think on one feet and make the right call. | Jun 03 12:38 |
| msb_ | MinceR: We are _not_ lucky that most people don't think. Because not thinking results in their believing what they're told, and thus becoming programmed robots in service of world fascism. | Jun 03 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Really Australia is luckier than most countries. | Jun 03 12:39 |
| oiaohm | Our media is prepared to use robot drones to get into areas they are not permited. | Jun 03 12:39 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Interesting! US military training is simply to create robots that will follow orders and kill or be killed on command. | Jun 03 12:39 |
| oiaohm | msb_ Really its funny. | Jun 03 12:39 |
| oiaohm | USA mil air command and control is forbin from giving australian aircraft orders. | Jun 03 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because in the iraq war the screwed up and tried ordering australian fight aircraft to bomb a target. | Jun 03 12:41 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: I guess you mean military is prepared to use drones. Unless Aussie media is even more forceful than ours! | Jun 03 12:41 |
| oiaohm | If an australian fight pilot recieves a direct order to bomb a target they have called suspect. The australian play book calls command and control breached. | Jun 03 12:43 |
| oiaohm | So making where ever command and control is a P1 target to be taken out with what ever arms the aircraft has left. | Jun 03 12:43 |
| oiaohm | Also automatic trigger of change to backup australian to australian mode. | Jun 03 12:44 |
| msb_ | GHW Bush murdered at least 500,000 Iraqis after asking Sadaam to attack Kuwait. | Jun 03 12:44 |
| oiaohm | So yes the USA command and control people effectively called an full airstrike on themselves. | Jun 03 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Lucky an australian commander was at the location. | Jun 03 12:45 |
| msb_ | Clinton murdered 1,500,000 Iraqis by preventing Iraq from repairing its water purification systems. | Jun 03 12:45 |
| msb_ | GW Bush and Obomber have murdered 1,000,000 Iraqis in their invasion and genocide for no reason whatsoever. | Jun 03 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Sorry to say compared to the death rate under the ditactor. | Jun 03 12:46 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: so how do australians call an air strike on non-C&C targets? | Jun 03 12:46 |
| oiaohm | The numbers you are talking about are small | Jun 03 12:47 |
| msb_ | That's a total of 3,000,000 Iraqis murdered by the US, out of a population of 30,000,000. The US has murdered 10% of the Iraqi population, and probably injured at least as many more. | Jun 03 12:47 |
| oiaohm | C&C can by not following australian rules controlling australian fighters can mistakely call an airstrick on self. | Jun 03 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Due to bad orders. | Jun 03 12:48 |
| MinceR | i know | Jun 03 12:48 |
| MinceR | but how do they give a legitimate order to bomb a target? | Jun 03 12:48 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Please provide a reference for Sadaam murdering more than 3,000,000 Iraqi people. | Jun 03 12:48 |
| oiaohm | A few ways. | Jun 03 12:48 |
| MinceR | such as? | Jun 03 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Australian fighter aircraft themselves can operate as C&C for ground forces. | Jun 03 12:49 |
| oiaohm | And australian spotters on ground can also send messages straight to fighter aircraft | Jun 03 12:49 |
| oiaohm | Australian forces are designed to operate with a decentralised command and control | Jun 03 12:49 |
| oiaohm | So making them far worse of problem to disrupt. | Jun 03 12:50 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Please provide a reference for Sadaam murdering more than 3,000,000 Iraqi people. | Jun 03 12:51 |
| oiaohm | msb_: Please beaware 20.000.000 people in Sadaam time are not accounted for. | Jun 03 12:52 |
| oiaohm | Over 20.000.000 people | Jun 03 12:52 |
| msb_ | Please give a reference. | Jun 03 12:52 |
| oiaohm | That was anistary internal national numbers. | Jun 03 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Basically people who were imprisined by Sadaam and has never turned up again. msb_ | Jun 03 12:54 |
| oiaohm | No bodies no nothing has been found of them. | Jun 03 12:54 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: "anistary" is not a word in English. | Jun 03 12:54 |
| oiaohm | amnesty international | Jun 03 12:55 |
| msb_ | Please give a reference for the 20,000,000. | Jun 03 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Don't have the document on me. Basically Sadaam did not get the title of butcher for no reason. | Jun 03 12:58 |
| oiaohm | You also have to remember the chemical weapons the USA was looking for. They had given to Sadaam. | Jun 03 12:59 |
| oiaohm | They were used against the curds and in the iran and iraq war. | Jun 03 12:59 |
| oiaohm | When using those weapons was out lawed by international treaties. | Jun 03 13:00 |
| oiaohm | Even when the USA gave them to Sadaam. | Jun 03 13:00 |
| msb_ | Yes, US wished to mass-murder the populations of both nations so it fomented that war. | Jun 03 13:00 |
| oiaohm | No USA did not want iran to win. | Jun 03 13:01 |
| oiaohm | Since that would have cut off USA cheep oil. | Jun 03 13:01 |
| oiaohm | The chemical weapons killed more than 3.000.000 people. | Jun 03 13:02 |
| oiaohm | And those chemical weapons got the people of a iraq scared to fighting against a dictator as well. | Jun 03 13:02 |
| msb_ | Both the 20M and 3M figures seem many times higher than ones I remember seeing. | Jun 03 13:03 |
| msb_ | Maybe 3M were killed in Iran-Iraq war, but mostly not by chemical weapons. | Jun 03 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Iran-Iraq war + curds(the northen peopl in iraq) Killed comes up to 3 million. From the USA supplied chemical weapons. | Jun 03 13:05 |
| oiaohm | The iran-irag war also saw a lot more die from direct shots. | Jun 03 13:06 |
| oiaohm | The losses for iran was so massive that there was not a single famally at the time that had not lost someone in the iran iraq war. | Jun 03 13:07 |
| oiaohm | Without the chemical weapons Sadaam would have lost the iran iraq war. | Jun 03 13:09 |
| oiaohm | 20 million is the missing. Unconfirmed where last seen in Iraq special police hands. | Jun 03 13:10 |
| msb_ | I can't find any such number in http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/iraq | Jun 03 13:11 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Iraq | Amnesty International .::. Size~: 19.24 KB | Jun 03 13:11 |
| msb_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Aftermath says 1M Iranians and .25 to .5M Iraqis killed or wounded in that war. | Jun 03 13:15 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Iran–Iraq War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 357.45 KB | Jun 03 13:16 |
| oiaohm | kurds are the ones who were on the major recieving end of the chemical weapons. msb_ | Jun 03 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Also note that iraq numbers on own deaths are kinda vage. | Jun 03 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Because straight after getting iran out their was a second battle. | Jun 03 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Internally. | Jun 03 13:24 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Iraq.html Also notice something. msb_ Even with all the deaths Iraq population growth has not stopped been. | Jun 03 13:32 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Iraq - Location and size, Population, Industry, Mining, Manufacturing, Construction, Services .::. Size~: 30.45 KB | Jun 03 13:32 |
| oiaohm | infact is now growing faster. | Jun 03 13:32 |
| msb_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_genocide#Summary Says 1 to 2M Kurds killed by Iraq. | Jun 03 13:35 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Al-Anfal Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 73.56 KB | Jun 03 13:35 |
| oiaohm | msb_: I guess I should have rounded down to 2 million | Jun 03 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Its still a hell load of people killed by USA made chemical weapons. | Jun 03 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Given to someone who was not responsable. | Jun 03 13:37 |
| msb_ | I would sure like to see a reference for 20M Iraqis disappeared by Sadaam. If the remaining was 30M, that would be 40% of the population. | Jun 03 13:37 |
| oiaohm | msb_: that is over Sadaam complete rule. | Jun 03 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Ie not like one year. | Jun 03 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Of course missing. | Jun 03 13:38 |
| oiaohm | That could be people who changed their name and hid in that number. | Jun 03 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Really the problem with missing is that they are exactly that. | Jun 03 13:39 |
| oiaohm | They might be dead or they might have hid. | Jun 03 13:39 |
| oiaohm | The big thing is the ammount of people going missing in iraq has dropped after the battle. | Jun 03 13:42 |
| oiaohm | So I really do think its a better out come to know if a person is dead or not. | Jun 03 13:42 |
| msb_ | Sadaam was an ally of the US. He was put in power by the US aiding the Ba'ath coup against socialist Prime Minister Abd al-Karim Qasim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_1963_Iraqi_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#U.S._involvement | Jun 03 13:46 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: February 1963 Iraqi coup d'état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 42.72 KB | Jun 03 13:46 |
| oiaohm | msb_: Yep. | Jun 03 13:47 |
| oiaohm | msb_: USA messing up the area started in 1963 | Jun 03 13:48 |
| oiaohm | msb_: and has kept on going to know. | Jun 03 13:48 |
| oiaohm | now | Jun 03 13:48 |
| oiaohm | You agree from 1963 to when Sadaam finally out put out of power is quite a long time to make a lot of people disappear. | Jun 03 13:50 |
| ender_33 | How about the US prop up of Mao Zedong, mass murderer, communist revolutionary of China | Jun 03 13:51 |
| ender_33 | released everyone from prison to terrorize the public | Jun 03 13:51 |
| ender_33 | lenin and trotsky (freemasons) had intellectuals rounded up and exterminated | Jun 03 13:52 |
| msb_ | Saddam (oops bad spelling before) lasted from 1979 to 2006, 27 years, so that would be an average of 740,000 per year for 20,000,000 total. Still sounds way overly high. | Jun 03 13:53 |
| oiaohm | It is a high figure compared to the normalls. | Jun 03 13:55 |
| oiaohm | For a 20 000 000 popluation. That is less than a 4 percent disappearing a year. msb_ | Jun 03 13:56 |
| oiaohm | Normal disappearance rates are about 2 percent. | Jun 03 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Note normal in a population at peace without a dictator. | Jun 03 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Big thing is most of that 2 percent do turn up. | Jun 03 13:58 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: You are saying one person in 50 disappears every year and is never heard from again, nobody knows where they go? | Jun 03 13:58 |
| oiaohm | I said normal disappearance rates. Not normal disappearance rates that don't turn up. | Jun 03 13:59 |
| oiaohm | In most countries are peace a lot of those people turn up. | Jun 03 13:59 |
| oiaohm | In a country with internal problems. Large percent of the 2 percent will not turn up. Due to changing names and other things. | Jun 03 14:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically 4 percent is way outside normal. 2 percent disappearing in a country with internal problems you would write up as normal. | Jun 03 14:01 |
| oiaohm | ie 2 percent in a country with internal problems disappearing never to be sean again. | Jun 03 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Is normal. | Jun 03 14:02 |
| oiaohm | That is a country where you would be just descrimated against due to back ground. | Jun 03 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Ie minor internal problems. | Jun 03 14:02 |
| oiaohm | You don't call someone like Saddam a minor problem. | Jun 03 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Basically missing people numbers really tell you how healthy a country is. msb_ | Jun 03 14:05 |
| oiaohm | msb_: mind you due to the on going mess in iraq might also explain why the missing numbers have not dropped as you expect in an area that has gone into peace. | Jun 03 14:08 |
| msb_ | Slaughter of a million people, injury of probably three times as many, destruction of vital infrastructure, and imposition of a govt that is puppet of the US. Not exactly what I'd call "peace". | Jun 03 14:11 |
| msb_ | And there was no reason, no justification, for any of it. | Jun 03 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Exactly. | Jun 03 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Really their is a reason. | Jun 03 14:13 |
| oiaohm | But its not a good reason. | Jun 03 14:13 |
| msb_ | This was US desire to control oil, and US/Israeli desire for power. | Jun 03 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Australian special forces were giving key target aquirements like cemment factories. | Jun 03 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Because Australian forces are trainned well enough to take a target without destorying it. | Jun 03 14:14 |
| ender_33 | too bad US still gets oil from Canada as its biggest import | Jun 03 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Where most USA forces are not trainned well enough todo that. | Jun 03 14:14 |
| msb_ | That is a minor issue. US, Australia, England should never have invaded or bombed Iraq at all. | Jun 03 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Basically poorly trainned troopers need as much of the playing field as possible tilted in thier direction. | Jun 03 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Australia did not indescribably bomb. | Jun 03 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Really Australia was stuck between a rock and a hardplace. | Jun 03 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Support USA in the iraq war pick up hardware we required to keep the peace our region. | Jun 03 14:17 |
| msb_ | That is disgusting. | Jun 03 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Also by our forces going in lot of targets that USA forces would have destoried reducing means for IRAQ to rebuild themselves would have been destoryed. | Jun 03 14:18 |
| oiaohm | You have to remember with the mass killing in east temor Australia got no support from the USA or UN to stop it msb_ | Jun 03 14:19 |
| oiaohm | And that is in our local region. | Jun 03 14:19 |
| msb_ | Aus can't defend itself against Indonesia? | Jun 03 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Lot of our near by countries to Australia like Australia | Jun 03 14:19 |
| oiaohm | They know Australia we come in stop the volence and leave. | Jun 03 14:20 |
| oiaohm | msb_: possible could but it would mean battlign on australian mainland. | Jun 03 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Not something australia particularly wants todo. | Jun 03 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Australia is stuck in a really hard place we do need the USA paciffic fleet as backup. | Jun 03 14:22 |
| oiaohm | msb_: basically how could australia say no | Jun 03 14:22 |
| oiaohm | msb_: Reason why Australian forces have advantage on the Australian mainland. Is lot of the planits and animals on the mainland if you know how to use them are living bioweapon factories. | Jun 03 14:25 |
| msb_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto#Overthrow_of_Sukarno_.281965.29 | Jun 03 14:29 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Suharto - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 238.5 KB | Jun 03 14:29 |
| msb_ | Sukarno and 500,000 leftists were killed, and Suharto put in. I can't believe the US was not behind that. Suharto was the brutal dictator who attacked East Timor. | Jun 03 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Yes when East Timor first fell australia did not have the forces to assist those people either. | Jun 03 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Basically Australia has had to sit by and watch bad things happen in our region and not have the power todo anything about it. | Jun 03 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Even when some of our people have been killed. | Jun 03 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Ie the 5 monitoring reporters in East Timor and the 6 that went with approval from Suharto to find out what happened. | Jun 03 14:33 |
| oiaohm | lets just say they were incompetent is the only reason we knew the 6 was a double cross. | Jun 03 14:33 |
| oiaohm | They missed seeing the camera man with him. | Jun 03 14:34 |
| msb_ | Yep. It was the US that got rid of Sukarno: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Indonesia57_KH.html http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Indonesia65_KH.html | Jun 03 14:34 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Indonesia 1957-1958 KH .::. Size~: 13.31 KB | Jun 03 14:34 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Indonesia 1965 KH .::. Size~: 12.95 KB | Jun 03 14:34 |
| oiaohm | USA has not been that particularly useful to Australian national secuirty. msb_ | Jun 03 14:35 |
| oiaohm | They are basically only useful for deternt factor. | Jun 03 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Any time they interfer they normally just make matters worse. | Jun 03 14:36 |
| msb_ | But since US always supports fascist dictators, US created the hostile environment (e.g., Indonesia) near Australia, for which Australia needed US weapons to defend against, and so Aus participated in the mass murder in Iraq. | Jun 03 14:38 |
| msb_ | brb | Jun 03 14:39 |
| ender_33 | it has supported communist dictators too | Jun 03 14:50 |
| ender_33 | the left-right wing paradigm is false | Jun 03 14:51 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: Land of the free really likes making sure nowhere else is as free as them. | Jun 03 14:52 |
| ender_33 | the US is carrying the torch of the british anglo american empire | Jun 03 14:52 |
| ender_33 | waging war for the elite to get richer | Jun 03 14:53 |
| ender_33 | banking families, royalty and corporations | Jun 03 14:53 |
| ender_33 | not just american capitalists, it goes further back than that | Jun 03 14:53 |
| ender_33 | predating America | Jun 03 14:54 |
| ender_33 | Karl Marx's teacher was one of the founders of zionism | Jun 03 14:57 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Hess | Jun 03 14:57 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Moses Hess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 45.45 KB | Jun 03 14:57 |
| *sebsebseb (~3seb@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Jun 03 15:05 | |
| sebsebseb | hi | Jun 03 15:05 |
| msb_ | Hi, Sebastian. | Jun 03 15:05 |
| sebsebseb | msb_: hey | Jun 03 15:07 |
| msb_ | The fact that Marx and Engles worked with a Zionist, and in fact the Bolsheviks aided the Zionists in some ways, does not mean that the leftist ideas -- that working people should organize together in order to have equal power to the wealthy few -- are wrong. | Jun 03 15:08 |
| msb_ | Socialism has benefited the people of Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Venezuela, and many other nations, at least until they were subverted, bombed, invaded, etc, by the US and their socialism eliminated. | Jun 03 15:12 |
| MinceR | good to know that the US installed those socialist dictators | Jun 03 15:12 |
| msb_ | MinceR: You seem to be very confused. The US did not install the socialist leaders in those four nations, it opposed them. And Ho Chi Minh, the Ortega brothers, and Hugo Chavez were/are not dictators. | Jun 03 15:14 |
| MinceR | reality must seem to be very confused to you | Jun 03 15:14 |
| msb_ | Castro felt he had to have somewhat of a police state because of the constant attacks on Cuba by the US. But I read years ago that most Cubans had guns to fight off a US invasion. | Jun 03 15:15 |
| MinceR | yes, blame the US for everything | Jun 03 15:16 |
| MinceR | are the US still constantly attacking them? | Jun 03 15:16 |
| oiaohm | you have to remember cuba has one of the best public medical system in the world. | Jun 03 15:16 |
| msb_ | The left-right paradigm is not false. The Republican-Democrat paradigm is a false opposition. | Jun 03 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because its a prevention based system. | Jun 03 15:17 |
| msb_ | The US is still attacking Cuba with its economic blockade. Previously it has supported invasions and airline hijackers, and has dropped biological weapons on Cuba to kill crops and farm animals. | Jun 03 15:19 |
| MinceR | and the economic blocade necessitates a police state how? | Jun 03 15:21 |
| MinceR | btw, "Castro felt herp derp" is not a good excuse for any autoritarian act | Jun 03 15:21 |
| msb_ | Constant fascist infiltrations from the US into Cuba and US support of antisocialist political organizations were the reason for a police state. It may not have been the best solution. But the US is an enormous fascist monster very close to, and often attacking, little Cuba. | Jun 03 15:24 |
| msb_ | http://cosmicpenguin.com/#US_Nazis -- American Businessmen Financed Hitler 75% | Jun 03 15:25 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Human Society That Works For Everyone .::. Size~: 28.42 KB | Jun 03 15:25 |
| msb_ | http://cosmicpenguin.com/#American_Holocaust -- Throughout the 20th century, U.S. businessmen used the U.S. military to murder tens of millions of people in order to enslave dozens of Third World nations for profit. | Jun 03 15:25 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Human Society That Works For Everyone .::. Size~: 28.42 KB | Jun 03 15:25 |
| MinceR | i guess it's easier for "little cuba" to attack its own citizens instead of attacking the USA | Jun 03 15:29 |
| MinceR | cheaper too | Jun 03 15:29 |
| msb_ | Cuba does not attack its people, but it does ban anti-socialist political parties, at least those allied with the CIA and/or the anti-Castro Cubans in Florida. | Jun 03 15:38 |
| MinceR | oh, i know that truck | Jun 03 15:40 |
| MinceR | trick | Jun 03 15:40 |
| MinceR | commies did it in hungary too | Jun 03 15:40 |
| MinceR | in the previous dictatorship | Jun 03 15:40 |
| *MinceR wonders why these people who love dictatorships so much don't move into one | Jun 03 15:40 | |
| msb_ | People who travel to Cuba report that it's a very friendly place, and the citizens are happy and live well. | Jun 03 15:42 |
| MinceR | interesting how people report such things about all police states | Jun 03 15:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Cuba all studies say its basically true. | Jun 03 15:44 |
| ender_33 | msb_ big oil and big banks pretend to fight each other, in reality both prop up corrupt governments | Jun 03 15:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Cuba docs are assigned to areas to look after people. | Jun 03 15:44 |
| msb_ | Perhaps "police state" is the wrong term. Cuba has limits on political expression and organization in certain directions. But it's nothing like, e.g., the brutality of Israel against the Palestinians. | Jun 03 15:44 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and of course healthcare is all you need | Jun 03 15:45 |
| MinceR | who cares about freedom and prosperity | Jun 03 15:45 |
| MinceR | msb_: yes, "dictatorship" describes those "limits" more accurately | Jun 03 15:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Lot of the kitch gear in cuba is built old school. | Jun 03 15:45 |
| ender_33 | 10:36 * MinceR wonders why these people who love dictatorships so much don't move into one +1 | Jun 03 15:45 |
| MinceR | that is, all branches of power are firmly held in the same hands | Jun 03 15:45 |
| oiaohm | So you 1 blender/food processor.... is going to last you a life time. | Jun 03 15:46 |
| MinceR | especially if the secret police stuffs you into it | Jun 03 15:46 |
| msb_ | The US bans any company that does business with Cuba from doing business in the US. That severely impairs economic prosperity in Cuba. | Jun 03 15:46 |
| ender_33 | NKVD | Jun 03 15:46 |
| oiaohm | Really cuba does not disappear people msb_ | Jun 03 15:46 |
| ender_33 | KGB | Jun 03 15:46 |
| oiaohm | Opps MinceR | Jun 03 15:46 |
| MinceR | msb_: there are many other states beside cuba and usa | Jun 03 15:46 |
| oiaohm | If you are picked up they list it in the papers. | Jun 03 15:46 |
| MinceR | many of them don't embargo cuba | Jun 03 15:46 |
| ender_33 | Cuba also aided other communist revolutions | Jun 03 15:47 |
| ender_33 | Trudeau allowed Fidel to park his ships in Canada | Jun 03 15:47 |
| MinceR | i wonder when will msb_ tell me that actually the socialist dictatorship was quite nice in hungary too | Jun 03 15:47 |
| ender_33 | on the way to fight capitalism | Jun 03 15:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Cuba people are well feed as well. | Jun 03 15:48 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: ender_33 thinks labor unions are communism. He doesn't think working people should organize so they have power that can oppose the power of the wealthy. | Jun 03 15:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: If you have not worked out something here. | Jun 03 15:48 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: in other words, obese | Jun 03 15:48 |
| ender_33 | msb's name in the code means MOST SIGNIFICANT BIT, which is the first bit or ONE - He's an agent of socialist world government | Jun 03 15:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no well feed not over feed. | Jun 03 15:48 |
| msb_ | ender_33 is lying. I am not an agent of anything. | Jun 03 15:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Cuba is highly medically health. This way there are low numbers of sick days. | Jun 03 15:49 |
| ender_33 | im not lying | Jun 03 15:49 |
| MinceR | he'll accuse everyone of being an agent of someone and also a communist | Jun 03 15:49 |
| ender_33 | i might be wrong at most, but im not lying | Jun 03 15:49 |
| ender_33 | its in his name | Jun 03 15:49 |
| MinceR | (seriously, what happened that made the lunatic fringe rush the TR channels in the last few months?) | Jun 03 15:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Thier are lower costs for medical for country. | Jun 03 15:49 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: yay. | Jun 03 15:50 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and now they're gracious enough to allow one computer per person now? | Jun 03 15:50 |
| MinceR | (not that anyone can afford it anyway) | Jun 03 15:50 |
| MinceR | (anyone except the dictator, his family and his flunkies, that is) | Jun 03 15:50 |
| msb_ | ender_33 says I am a communist because one website that my site links to has one page that is anti-business. | Jun 03 15:50 |
| ender_33 | Mincer - if hes not an agent, why does he have a file on everyone he talks to including me? | Jun 03 15:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Funny enough healthly and well feed(not over feed). With house hold items that don't play up. Are quite happy people. | Jun 03 15:50 |
| MinceR | ender_33: he has a file on people? | Jun 03 15:50 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: you sound like someone who never lived in a socialist dictatorship | Jun 03 15:51 |
| ender_33 | Mincer - yes he does, he was typing up mine while I was on skype with him | Jun 03 15:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Cuba is also careful to make sure not to over work people. | Jun 03 15:51 |
| msb_ | I have files with people's phone number and email so I can contact them again. That's all. | Jun 03 15:51 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: hungary did that too | Jun 03 15:51 |
| MinceR | that is, people slacked off all the time | Jun 03 15:51 |
| MinceR | it showed too | Jun 03 15:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Note slacked off all the time does not keep them fit. | Jun 03 15:52 |
| MinceR | they weren't fit | Jun 03 15:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Their is a fine line to be medically health. | Jun 03 15:52 |
| MinceR | still aren't | Jun 03 15:52 |
| oiaohm | Cuba basically has focused on fit healthly good quality house items. | Jun 03 15:52 |
| oiaohm | So they have some things better than us in exchange for not having that much countrol over goverment. | Jun 03 15:53 |
| ender_33 | whats the average cuban IQ | Jun 03 15:53 |
| ender_33 | oh, 85 | Jun 03 15:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically cuba has mastered the human feedlot method. | Jun 03 15:54 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_Wealth_of_Nations | Jun 03 15:55 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: IQ and the Wealth of Nations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 113.94 KB | Jun 03 15:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: that the entire point if human existence is to eat and be healthy? | Jun 03 15:55 |
| MinceR | better not strain that central nervous system... | Jun 03 15:55 |
| ender_33 | anyone who writes off freemasons or illuminati are suspect | Jun 03 15:55 |
| ender_33 | especially when Cass Sunstein said they would have agents in online chat rooms | Jun 03 15:57 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: Lower than normal IQ would be expected. Cattle in feedlot. | Jun 03 15:57 |
| MinceR | ah yes, the pinnacle of human existence | Jun 03 15:57 |
| msb_ | The IQ determinations in that book are very suspect. | Jun 03 15:57 |
| ender_33 | nah its what I expected | Jun 03 15:58 |
| ender_33 | intelligent people would resist such a system | Jun 03 15:58 |
| MinceR | :> | Jun 03 15:58 |
| ender_33 | those people were murdered | Jun 03 15:58 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Why are you calling Cuba a "feedlot"? It has a good educational system. | Jun 03 15:58 |
| ender_33 | its a fact that Lenin had the intellectuals in russia experminated | Jun 03 15:58 |
| MinceR | and now someone will tell you that no people were murdered because totalitarian dictatorships _always_ report everything they do in the news | Jun 03 15:58 |
| MinceR | "That's crazy! The government doesn't lie to people!" | Jun 03 15:59 |
| oiaohm | msb_: Do you think cattle in a feedlot are not educated? | Jun 03 15:59 |
| ender_33 | ITS ALL WESTERN CAPITALIST PROPAGANDA!!!!!111!11 | Jun 03 15:59 |
| MinceR | msb_: does that apply to the teaching of economics too? | Jun 03 15:59 |
| oiaohm | msb_: Also cattle in feed lot are fairly happy. | Jun 03 16:00 |
| oiaohm | msb_: even that they don't really control what is going on. | Jun 03 16:00 |
| MinceR | especially if they're stuck between bars so tightly they can't even move their heads? :> | Jun 03 16:00 |
| msb_ | The people Castro had killed at the beginning of the Cuban revolution were all murdering torturing police of the Batista regime. They were not intellectuals or political opponents. | Jun 03 16:00 |
| MinceR | so they said | Jun 03 16:00 |
| ender_33 | msb_ says the cuban government | Jun 03 16:00 |
| MinceR | i presume this Batista guy wasn't a political opponent of Castro | Jun 03 16:00 |
| MinceR | not at all | Jun 03 16:00 |
| msb_ | So said people who observed it. | Jun 03 16:00 |
| MinceR | do you have any references? | Jun 03 16:01 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: Castro kills very few people he classes it as a waste of resources. | Jun 03 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Castro would be more likely to work them to death on something. | Jun 03 16:01 |
| MinceR | how, if they aren't willing to work? | Jun 03 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Killing is such a waste. | Jun 03 16:01 |
| msb_ | Batista was the fascist dictator supported by the US and US organized crime, who made Cuba "The whorehouse of the Caribbean". | Jun 03 16:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there are ways around that. | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | and of course no two dictators can be opposed to each other | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | so when the russians came and took hungary from the nazis, they were liberators | Jun 03 16:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: If you want to be nasty you could aways delete someones memories. | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | never mind that we didn't get any freedom out of the deal | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i'm not sure if cubans have the tech for that | Jun 03 16:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: killing is such a wasteful anster. | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: "working to death" sounds a lot like "killing" somehow | Jun 03 16:02 |
| MinceR | must have something to do with the "death" part | Jun 03 16:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: deleting all a human memories is old and simple tech. | Jun 03 16:03 |
| MinceR | yes, it's called "killing" | Jun 03 16:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: working to death might take 60+ years. | Jun 03 16:03 |
| MinceR | the brain dissolves, the memories are gone | Jun 03 16:03 |
| MinceR | i wonder how happy these cubans are who are being "worked to death" | Jun 03 16:04 |
| oiaohm | Its a strong enough magnitic feild zap in the right place and its by by memories. | Jun 03 16:04 |
| oiaohm | Resist and you still will anyhow. Don't resist serve you time and you will stand a good chance of getting out in cuba. | Jun 03 16:04 |
| ender_33 | then they can tell you that you lost your memory while working in the mines, get back to work! | Jun 03 16:05 |
| MinceR | we see another aspect of the pinnacle of human existence: working yourself to death for a freeloading dictator | Jun 03 16:05 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: Yep a true case of resistance is pointless. | Jun 03 16:05 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: What makes you think Castro works people to death? | Jun 03 16:05 |
| MinceR | actually, there are forms of resistance that work | Jun 03 16:05 |
| oiaohm | msb_: it was for some of the worst of the worst. | Jun 03 16:06 |
| ender_33 | msb_ if its so great, why don't you move to Cuba, China, or any other communist country | Jun 03 16:06 |
| msb_ | Please specify. | Jun 03 16:06 |
| oiaohm | msb_: who use to tortor the crap out of people. | Jun 03 16:06 |
| MinceR | though what brought the "socialist" regime down in the east bloc (including russia) was their own ingenuity destroying the economy :> | Jun 03 16:06 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: Lot of ways cuba is different to most other communist countries. | Jun 03 16:06 |
| MinceR | he could move to north korea too | Jun 03 16:07 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: yes, it has a different name | Jun 03 16:07 |
| ender_33 | he could | Jun 03 16:07 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: list the communist countries with good medical | Jun 03 16:07 |
| MinceR | and the dictator has a different name too | Jun 03 16:07 |
| MinceR | maybe even the flag is different | Jun 03 16:07 |
| ender_33 | oiaohm - good medical at the expense of freedom? | Jun 03 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Their is only 1 that has good medicial. | Jun 03 16:07 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: there are people in the usa who cannot get thier teeth or other medical things fixed. | Jun 03 16:08 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: does not happen in cuba. | Jun 03 16:08 |
| oiaohm | Really it depends if you are the poor sod needing medical. | Jun 03 16:08 |
| ender_33 | oiaohm - im not giving up my freedom for free dental | Jun 03 16:08 |
| draoan | oiaohm: for example, cuba, and it's FREE :) | Jun 03 16:08 |
| ender_33 | FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE STUFF!!!! Just sign up with ISM!! Throw away that freedom, we'll take care of you! | Jun 03 16:09 |
| MinceR | it's not really free | Jun 03 16:09 |
| oiaohm | Its a trade. | Jun 03 16:09 |
| MinceR | it's called "slavery" | Jun 03 16:09 |
| ender_33 | its called slavery with benefits | Jun 03 16:09 |
| MinceR | they want to keep their slaves alive for a while? they're such philantropists! | Jun 03 16:09 |
| ender_33 | the only true freedom is where you don't have an external authority telling you what you can or can't do | Jun 03 16:10 |
| MinceR | why, it's positively saintly to not murder your slaves the moment they're born. | Jun 03 16:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: cuba people have some of the longest life spans. | Jun 03 16:10 |
| MinceR | source? | Jun 03 16:10 |
| MinceR | then again "some" makes that sentence kind of meaningless | Jun 03 16:10 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy | Jun 03 16:12 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 200.5 KB | Jun 03 16:12 |
| oiaohm | Ok to be correct little longer than the USA. | Jun 03 16:12 |
| oiaohm | But then you have to remember cuba is doing that without a lot of medical sicense USA does not allow them to import. | Jun 03 16:13 |
| MinceR | somehow i can't ignore the fact that there are many non-dictatorships above Cuba in that list | Jun 03 16:13 |
| MinceR | perhaps it isn't a good idea to turn into slaves for health after all? | Jun 03 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Cuba is above all the other dictatorships. | Jun 03 16:14 |
| MinceR | good for them | Jun 03 16:14 |
| oiaohm | And above a lot of non dictactorships as well. | Jun 03 16:14 |
| MinceR | their geographical location is probably a factor | Jun 03 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Yet they have restrictions on what techs they can get there hands on. | Jun 03 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Jun 03 16:15 |
| MinceR | oh, i see | Jun 03 16:15 |
| MinceR | so no access to technology makes people live longer | Jun 03 16:15 |
| MinceR | (just don't tell the japanese) | Jun 03 16:15 |
| oiaohm | USA should simply beat cuba. | Jun 03 16:15 |
| MinceR | they don't care to | Jun 03 16:15 |
| oiaohm | Unless of course thier medical system does not work. | Jun 03 16:16 |
| MinceR | the medical system of the usa probably works for rich people | Jun 03 16:16 |
| MinceR | probably it works for them better than the cuban system works for anyone | Jun 03 16:16 |
| MinceR | well, except maybe for the dictator and their inner circle | Jun 03 16:16 |
| oiaohm | A lot of the countries above cuba use the cuba system of medical + extra gear. | Jun 03 16:16 |
| oiaohm | Basically the cuba system can be done without a dictator ship. | Jun 03 16:17 |
| MinceR | yes, it's the system invented in cuba, by fidel castro himself, and named after him | Jun 03 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep how to correctly allocate docs | Jun 03 16:17 |
| oiaohm | To prevent illness | Jun 03 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Cuba focuses on prevention ahead of cure. | Jun 03 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Makes a huge difference. | Jun 03 16:18 |
| MinceR | you know what else cuba focuses on? opression. | Jun 03 16:18 |
| oiaohm | I did not say it was all good. | Jun 03 16:18 |
| oiaohm | by people being healthy and well feed with decent education they end up mostly happy so requiring less opression. | Jun 03 16:19 |
| MinceR | or so the government propaganda says | Jun 03 16:19 |
| oiaohm | Basically if someone is thinking about doing a dicatorship and you want to have the least problems maintainting it do what cuba does. | Jun 03 16:19 |
| oiaohm | Really its not goverment propaganda. Samethings have been found to work in jails and other places. | Jun 03 16:20 |
| MinceR | [citation needed] | Jun 03 16:20 |
| MinceR | but seriously, if you think life in cuba is so great, move there | Jun 03 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Improving food quality from crap to something decent in jails reduced riots and other problems. | Jun 03 16:21 |
| MinceR | they'll be happy to take you in place of all the people who could leave and therefore have fled | Jun 03 16:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I am not saying cuba is a 100 percent happy place. | Jun 03 16:21 |
| oiaohm | But their are leasons. | Jun 03 16:22 |
| MinceR | lesions? | Jun 03 16:22 |
| MinceR | where the police hits you? | Jun 03 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Basically I want a place with medical like cuba and a free goverment. | Jun 03 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Ie the ideal out come. | Jun 03 16:22 |
| oiaohm | I don't want to be somewhere like the USA. | Jun 03 16:23 |
| oiaohm | Where medical is suspect and goverment is equally so. | Jun 03 16:23 |
| ender_33 | a utopia | Jun 03 16:23 |
| ender_33 | :) | Jun 03 16:23 |
| ender_33 | i just want the government to stop stealing my money | Jun 03 16:23 |
| oiaohm | ender_33: really would you be upset if you really did get results for you from it. | Jun 03 16:24 |
| MinceR | what, he'd be upset if he had more money and more control over what it's spent on? | Jun 03 16:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: really lot of cases people pay taxs and see nothing back in return. | Jun 03 16:24 |
| msb_ | Here's a song by a guy who visited Cuba: http://cosmicpenguin.com/tmp/David-Rovics--Trading-With-The-Enemy.mp3 | Jun 03 16:25 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Not a web page! Aborting audio/mpeg type | Jun 03 16:25 |
| ender_33 | if I got to decide where the money went I might be more willing | Jun 03 16:25 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: that's how it tends to work | Jun 03 16:25 |
| ender_33 | i don't like currently how money is spent in canada | Jun 03 16:25 |
| ender_33 | for instance I got a free college education and stuff like that is acceptable | Jun 03 16:26 |
| ender_33 | the free college education makes it more likely for that person to get a higher paying job | Jun 03 16:26 |
| ender_33 | however under that program people who never paid tax in their life (new immigrants) were being given free money for college too | Jun 03 16:27 |
| msb_ | The US is a dictatorship. It's just well hidden. | Jun 03 16:27 |
| msb_ | Disguised as a democracy. | Jun 03 16:28 |
| msb_ | Both political parties are bought and paid for, and the election laws guarantee that no other party can win. | Jun 03 16:29 |
| ender_33 | so is cuba and china and the communist countries | Jun 03 16:29 |
| msb_ | What's the chance that Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich will ever get elected President? ZERO. | Jun 03 16:29 |
| ender_33 | thats the fault of socialist media | Jun 03 16:30 |
| msb_ | Nicaragua is democratic. Sometimes they vote the socialists our for a while. | Jun 03 16:31 |
| msb_ | So is Venezuela. | Jun 03 16:31 |
| msb_ | ...which the US has threatened to attack. | Jun 03 16:32 |
| msb_ | The US media are not socialist; they are NWO fascist. They never mention social democracy, as practiced in some European nations. | Jun 03 16:33 |
| ender_33 | the EU is just as corrupt | Jun 03 16:40 |
| msb_ | Yup. | Jun 03 16:41 |
| ender_33 | non democratic | Jun 03 16:41 |
| ender_33 | Nigel Farage was almost assassinated too | Jun 03 16:41 |
| ender_33 | 'accidental' plane crash | Jun 03 16:41 |
| ender_33 | I don't think there is such thing as NWO fascist, its not just fascism | Jun 03 16:42 |
| ender_33 | the non-fox media isn't right wing | Jun 03 16:42 |
| ender_33 | the NWO is globalist | Jun 03 16:43 |
| msb_ | NWO is rule by the ultra-wealthy. That is fascism. | Jun 03 16:43 |
| msb_ | yes. World fascism. | Jun 03 16:43 |
| ender_33 | no | Jun 03 16:44 |
| ender_33 | the ultra wealthy also embrace socialism when it allows them to control people | Jun 03 16:44 |
| ender_33 | look at all the rich people in the Fabian Society | Jun 03 16:44 |
| ender_33 | ALL Labour UK MP's are in it | Jun 03 16:45 |
| ender_33 | Including Tony Blair and Gordon Brown | Jun 03 16:45 |
| ender_33 | HG Wells, Bertrand Russel | Jun 03 16:45 |
| ender_33 | George Bernard Shaw, H. G. Wells, Annie Besant, Graham Wallas, Hubert Bland, Edith Nesbit, Sydney Olivier, Oliver Lodge, Leonard Woolf and Virginia Woolf, Ramsay MacDonald and Emmeline Pankhurst. | Jun 03 16:46 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_Society | Jun 03 16:46 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Fabian Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 108.96 KB | Jun 03 16:46 |
| MinceR | the EU just serves the usian megacorps and does nothing else | Jun 03 16:47 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayer_Amschel_Rothschild | Jun 03 16:48 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Mayer Amschel Rothschild - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 41.93 KB | Jun 03 16:48 |
| ender_33 | this rothschild helped Adam Weishaupt set up the illuminati | Jun 03 16:49 |
| ender_33 | an international banking family dynasty | Jun 03 16:49 |
| ender_33 | oh noes | Jun 03 16:49 |
| ender_33 | NWO facist fallacy | Jun 03 16:49 |
| ender_33 | its simply rich people trying to control the poor | Jun 03 16:49 |
| ender_33 | using any system they can to lure people into supporting them | Jun 03 16:50 |
| msb_ | From the wiki article, the policies of the Fabian Society seem to be ordinary liberalism, not socialism. Minimum wage, health care, welfare. | Jun 03 16:54 |
| MinceR | what have those got to do with liberalism? | Jun 03 16:55 |
| msb_ | Those are the policies of liberalism. _ | Jun 03 16:56 |
| MinceR | that's not the liberalism i know | Jun 03 16:57 |
| MinceR | (or not one of the liberalisms i know anyway) | Jun 03 16:57 |
| msb_ | _Classical_ liberalism is something entirely different. It is synonymous with libertarianism. | Jun 03 16:57 |
| MinceR | (one of them is orthogonal to these policies; the other one would be opposed to them, afaik) | Jun 03 16:58 |
| ender_33 | msb_ their goal is the eventual conversion of the planet into world socialism | Jun 03 16:59 |
| msb_ | MinceR: please rephrase | Jun 03 16:59 |
| ender_33 | msb_ that means that they have to get people to accept small parts of the plan gradually | Jun 03 16:59 |
| ender_33 | just like Fabian | Jun 03 16:59 |
| ender_33 | its logo is a wolf in sheepskin clothing | Jun 03 17:00 |
| msb_ | ender_33: "they" being who? | Jun 03 17:00 |
| ender_33 | the fabian society | Jun 03 17:00 |
| MinceR | msb_: i vaguely recall two things being referred to as "liberalism" (or maybe "libertarianism", i can never tell them apart) -- one of them doesn't seem to specify a policy in those terms and the other seems to oppose them | Jun 03 17:00 |
| ender_33 | George Bernard Shaw said Stalin would've made a great Fabian too | Jun 03 17:01 |
| msb_ | Socialism by definition means control of the government and economy by working people. And the economy benefitting everyone more or less equally, not most of the wealthy going to a very few. | Jun 03 17:03 |
| ender_33 | you'll never get that though | Jun 03 17:03 |
| msb_ | If that is not the goal of the Fabians, then they are not socialist. | Jun 03 17:03 |
| ender_33 | citation needed | Jun 03 17:04 |
| msb_ | for what? | Jun 03 17:04 |
| MinceR | working people never got any sort of control in regimes calling themselves "socialism" though | Jun 03 17:04 |
| ender_33 | working people won't through socialism | Jun 03 17:04 |
| msb_ | In Nicaragua, Venezuela, and Cuba they do. But in Cuba not at the top level of the govt. | Jun 03 17:05 |
| ender_33 | msb_ can you explain why you're not living in those tropical paradises then? | Jun 03 17:06 |
| msb_ | I was born here, and have never traveled much. I have a lot of books and stuff -- hundreds of boxes. | Jun 03 17:06 |
| MinceR | so, are you afraid that the perfect utopia you envisioned is just a lie? | Jun 03 17:07 |
| msb_ | But if the US govt gets much more nasty than it is I may have to. | Jun 03 17:07 |
| ender_33 | lack of travel and owning a ton of books would prevent you from living out the perfect socialist utopia? | Jun 03 17:07 |
| ender_33 | sounds fishy to me | Jun 03 17:07 |
| MinceR | that's insulting to fish | Jun 03 17:07 |
| msb_ | I never said those countries were "perfect socialist utopia". That's your bullshit straw-man argument. | Jun 03 17:08 |
| MinceR | well, not in those exact words | Jun 03 17:08 |
| ender_33 | msb_ whenever we criticize socialism you use them as examples of it having no flaws | Jun 03 17:08 |
| MinceR | excuse me for not pasting all your lines from the log instead of this summary | Jun 03 17:08 |
| msb_ | Show me where I've ever said that socialism has no flaws. | Jun 03 17:08 |
| ender_33 | msb_ you're putting much burden on us with that request | Jun 03 17:09 |
| ender_33 | there are too many places | Jun 03 17:09 |
| ender_33 | you've only cast doubt on cuba | Jun 03 17:09 |
| ender_33 | nicaragua seems to be the perfect place to live | Jun 03 17:09 |
| MinceR | you mean nicaragua is even more perfect than cuba? | Jun 03 17:10 |
| ender_33 | cuba is lacking in its upper government a few things | Jun 03 17:10 |
| msb_ | Amazing. You say that I've said these countries are perfect and that socialism has no flaws. | Jun 03 17:10 |
| MinceR | 172702 < msb_> Nicaragua is democratic. Sometimes they vote the socialists our for a while. | Jun 03 17:10 |
| msb_ | I never said either one. | Jun 03 17:10 |
| MinceR | maybe that's his problem with nicaragua | Jun 03 17:10 |
| ender_33 | you keep arguing the flaws we bring up | Jun 03 17:11 |
| MinceR | those pesky voters don't get to vote the "socialists" out in cuba | Jun 03 17:11 |
| ender_33 | perhaps you could explain flaws in socialism then | Jun 03 17:11 |
| ender_33 | I can think of one, human nature | Jun 03 17:11 |
| MinceR | i can think of one, it's called "dictatorship" | Jun 03 17:11 |
| msb_ | Then I ask you to show me where I've said those things, and you say I've said them in so many places that you can't show me one. | Jun 03 17:11 |
| ender_33 | general nature too | Jun 03 17:11 |
| MinceR | and another, "lack of privacy" | Jun 03 17:11 |
| ender_33 | "goes against evolution" | Jun 03 17:12 |
| msb_ | All either of you care about is bullshit rhetoric, not an actual exchange of ideas. | Jun 03 17:12 |
| MinceR | no, i actually know what socialism is, having lived in it for a while | Jun 03 17:12 |
| MinceR | while you're just spouting bullshit propaganda | Jun 03 17:12 |
| MinceR | since you have no idea what you're talking about. | Jun 03 17:12 |
| msb_ | I learned a lot this morning talking with oiaohm, but you two just keep spouting the same slogans. | Jun 03 17:13 |
| ender_33 | msb_ you're the one who seems to have the closed mind | Jun 03 17:13 |
| msb_ | To you, I'm sure it seems that way. | Jun 03 17:13 |
| ender_33 | we're providing examples, some of us are providing ACTUAL EXPERIENCE | Jun 03 17:13 |
| ender_33 | you're ignoring it all | Jun 03 17:14 |
| ender_33 | i've told you I have experienced in my own life the downside to labour unions | Jun 03 17:14 |
| ender_33 | from a customer service perspective | Jun 03 17:14 |
| ender_33 | as a student at school with bad teachers, and as a customer of public transit | Jun 03 17:14 |
| ender_33 | i live in canada which is very socialist | Jun 03 17:15 |
| msb_ | Some unions are corrupt and some are not. You extrapolate from problematic ones to all unions. That's a logical fallacy. | Jun 03 17:15 |
| ender_33 | I see it all around me every day | Jun 03 17:15 |
| ender_33 | unions protect the worker, they don't care about quality of work or the customers | Jun 03 17:15 |
| msb_ | You say that because the Hungarian communists harmed people, that therefore all socialists harm people. The same fallacy. | Jun 03 17:16 |
| msb_ | Until you learn to think clearly, it's pointless talking with you. | Jun 03 17:16 |
| ender_33 | I had a teacher put me on ritalin because she was a bad teacher | Jun 03 17:16 |
| msb_ | You constantly distort what I say in order to support your unchangeable beliefs. | Jun 03 17:17 |
| ender_33 | i have changable beliefs msb_ | Jun 03 17:17 |
| MinceR | msb_: so, what did you "learn" from oiaohm? "cuba is so great, they have such great healthcare, they keep you alive and happy form zomg long, but i must not move there lest my faith in cuba is challenged"? | Jun 03 17:17 |
| ender_33 | read the history | Jun 03 17:17 |
| ender_33 | a year ago I was accusing people of being capitalists | Jun 03 17:17 |
| ender_33 | I was super left wing back then | Jun 03 17:17 |
| MinceR | i'm sure this changed msb_'s beliefs A LOT | Jun 03 17:18 |
| ender_33 | by the end of my high school days I was a borderline communist | Jun 03 17:18 |
| msb_ | I learned a lot about the history of Indonesia and Iraq. | Jun 03 17:18 |
| ender_33 | I would have voted communist if I wasn't strategically voting for liberals to keep stephen harper out of power | Jun 03 17:19 |
| msb_ | So you had a bad teacher, who was kept in the job by a corrupt union. And you want me to think that proves that all unions are harmful, and none beneficial? | Jun 03 17:19 |
| ender_33 | long time ago | Jun 03 17:19 |
| ender_33 | msb_ I haven't seen one that was ever beneficial for everyone | Jun 03 17:20 |
| ender_33 | i've seen some beneficial for the worker only | Jun 03 17:20 |
| ender_33 | but those ones were bad for the business, bad for the customer | Jun 03 17:20 |
| ender_33 | the internal union heirarchy becomes more important than the job itself | Jun 03 17:21 |
| MinceR | well, guess what, not having workers work 24/7 for the same wage is bad for business and customer | Jun 03 17:21 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean it's worth it :> | Jun 03 17:21 |
| ender_33 | show me an example of a union that benefited the busines owner, the worker and the cusotmer | Jun 03 17:21 |
| msb_ | Well, strikes do inconvenience customers. But if you can think of some other way to put pressure on employers, I'd like to hear it. | Jun 03 17:21 |
| ender_33 | msb_ once you fuck with the customers, you need to be punished | Jun 03 17:22 |
| msb_ | Well, strikes do inconvenience customers. But if you can think of some other way to put pressure on employers, I'd like to hear it. | Jun 03 17:22 |
| ender_33 | msb_ without customers you have no business | Jun 03 17:22 |
| MinceR | without workers you have no business | Jun 03 17:22 |
| ender_33 | the business owner would have to do it | Jun 03 17:22 |
| ender_33 | small businesses are like this | Jun 03 17:22 |
| MinceR | then the business owner would be a worker | Jun 03 17:23 |
| ender_33 | why not have laws passed for better rights for the entire country | Jun 03 17:23 |
| ender_33 | instead of just these people in these unions | Jun 03 17:23 |
| msb_ | Because wealthy employers can afford to bribe legislators so that never happens. | Jun 03 17:24 |
| ender_33 | LOL | Jun 03 17:24 |
| MinceR | who would cause those laws to be passed? | Jun 03 17:24 |
| ender_33 | Canada's ESA 2000 | Jun 03 17:24 |
| msb_ | And BTW, what you're proposing, if it went through, would be liberalism or social democracy. | Jun 03 17:24 |
| MinceR | i guess hungary is not the only place in the world where the word "liberal" has been stripped of all meaning | Jun 03 17:25 |
| ender_33 | yeah | Jun 03 17:27 |
| ender_33 | same in Canada too | Jun 03 17:27 |
| ender_33 | its not socialism to pass laws to help workers | Jun 03 17:28 |
| ender_33 | it helps society | Jun 03 17:28 |
| MinceR | only up to a point | Jun 03 17:28 |
| ender_33 | gives everyone rights, not just those who join a union | Jun 03 17:28 |
| ender_33 | you get more rights in Canada if you're not in a union | Jun 03 17:29 |
| ender_33 | the ESA 2000 doesn't apply if you're in one | Jun 03 17:29 |
| MinceR | yay | Jun 03 17:29 |
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| schestowitz | Whoa | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | Just caught up with this interesting conversation | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | One thing I'd add is | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | These two people at the dock I spoke to about the BBC toda | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | Cause the new BBC building was nearby and they had to go there | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | They said they hated the BBC | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | And then I heard something I had not heard before | Jun 03 18:23 |
| schestowitz | I thought gay people were lliberal and all (no problem), but this one man said that the BBC was "socialist" | Jun 03 18:24 |
| schestowitz | I never heard this before | Jun 03 18:24 |
| schestowitz | He said their panel is stuffed with these people, who are biased | Jun 03 18:24 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, that was news to me. Never mind me... | Jun 03 18:24 |
| schestowitz | I told them the BBC is now funded not by taxpayers only... but also rich families like GAtes | Jun 03 18:25 |
| schestowitz | And also explained to them what I was typing on the keyboard\... patent stuff and how it affects the UK-IPO | Jun 03 18:25 |
| schestowitz | People hardly know how patents work | Jun 03 18:25 |
| schestowitz | It's a travesty | Jun 03 18:25 |
| ender_33 | :) | Jun 03 18:53 |
| ender_33 | seeeeeeee | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | A lot of what you say makes sense | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | But some remains dubious | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | You need to gather more links | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | You're not the BBC | Jun 03 18:54 |
| schestowitz | People don't take words you say at face value | Jun 03 18:54 |
| ender_33 | exactly, im not the BBC | Jun 03 18:59 |
| ender_33 | lol | Jun 03 18:59 |
| ender_33 | I probably should provide more links | Jun 03 19:00 |
| ender_33 | otherwise I look nuts, I get it | Jun 03 19:00 |
| schestowitz | It's not what people are trained to hear | Jun 03 19:20 |
| schestowitz | 90% repetition, 5% new stuff, % bollox | Jun 03 19:20 |
| schestowitz | The key is making the latter 5% penetrate | Jun 03 19:20 |
| schestowitz | filling people's mind with new bollox, little by little | Jun 03 19:20 |
| schestowitz | "Saddam is evil and hates us" | Jun 03 19:20 |
| schestowitz | "Iraq is getting uranium" | Jun 03 19:21 |
| schestowitz | "Attack on Manchester possible within 40 minutes" | Jun 03 19:21 |
| schestowitz | Since you hate communism so much, you ought not to criticise the FSF | Jun 03 19:23 |
| schestowitz | You should look into Nils Torvalds | Jun 03 19:23 |
| schestowitz | Linus' dad still has political power in Finland | Jun 03 19:24 |
| ender_33 | interesting | Jun 03 20:12 |
| ender_33 | torvalds book says his dad lost enthusiasm for communism | Jun 03 20:14 |
| ender_33 | like I did when I discovered its history | Jun 03 20:16 |
| ender_33 | remember how left wing I used to be in the channel | Jun 03 20:16 |
| ender_33 | even lefty has an email where I screamed "capitalist" at him | Jun 03 20:17 |
| ender_33 | lol | Jun 03 20:17 |
| *MinceR screams "capitalist" at ender_33 | Jun 03 20:17 | |
| ender_33 | lol | Jun 03 20:17 |
| schestowitz | catapulist! | Jun 03 20:17 |
| ender_33 | I used to get into fights with daemonfc over it too | Jun 03 20:18 |
| schestowitz | Where does Linus say it? | Jun 03 20:18 |
| ender_33 | A change in opinion | Jun 03 20:18 |
| schestowitz | Maybe he's covering his own back | Jun 03 20:18 |
| ender_33 | its apparently in his book | Jun 03 20:18 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_Torvalds | Jun 03 20:19 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Nils Torvalds - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 29.66 KB | Jun 03 20:19 |
| schestowitz | Ah, Nils has a book | Jun 03 20:19 |
| schestowitz | I think he still uses Windows | Jun 03 20:19 |
| schestowitz | Based on 2008ish article from WSJ | Jun 03 20:19 |
| ender_33 | Linus's book | Jun 03 20:19 |
| schestowitz | He uses the commie OS, Windows | Jun 03 20:19 |
| schestowitz | One OS, one identity, uniform, all equally ***ed | Jun 03 20:19 |
| ender_33 | the part I dont get | Jun 03 20:19 |
| ender_33 | is why anyone in finland would be pushed towards communism based on history | Jun 03 20:20 |
| schestowitz | Russia | Jun 03 20:20 |
| ender_33 | when stalin invaded finland during ww2 | Jun 03 20:20 |
| schestowitz | Yes, Nils would travel to Russia | Jun 03 20:20 |
| schestowitz | AFAIK | Jun 03 20:20 |
| ender_33 | so? | Jun 03 20:20 |
| ender_33 | stalin invaded finland, you think they would be against that | Jun 03 20:21 |
| ender_33 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War | Jun 03 20:23 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden | Jun 03 20:23 |
| schestowitz | Yes, ask Nils | Jun 03 20:25 |
| schestowitz | You got his email addy? :-) | Jun 03 20:25 |
| ender_33 | I dont | Jun 03 20:25 |
| ender_33 | I probably will ask him though if I find it | Jun 03 20:25 |
| schestowitz | IIRC he's close to mayor or something | Jun 03 20:26 |
| schestowitz | Last time I checked, years ago | Jun 03 20:26 |
| schestowitz | In Fidland mayor might not be much | Jun 03 20:26 |
| schestowitz | It's a small population | Jun 03 20:26 |
| schestowitz | So like one in ten thousand would probably be MP | Jun 03 20:26 |
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| schestowitz | "http://bit.ly/jChLPw typo in link: I think tears is supposed to mean years ^^ Happy biking,  Cya around. " | Jun 03 22:53 |
| TechrightsBot-sc | Title: Microsoft’s Fight Against Innovation | Techrights .::. Size~: 82.47 KB | Jun 03 22:53 |
| schestowitz | Heh. Happy hacking! | Jun 03 22:53 |
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