Join us now at the IRC channel.
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| schestowitz | > Hey, it's been five years for BN/Techrights? That's astounding. | Nov 12 08:32 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | > Where'd the time go? | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Congratulations on those five years, Roy, you've come a long way and | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > have much to be proud of! I kind of miss the old days on Digg, but | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > haven't been there much these last few years. I have accounts on | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Diaspora and G+, but not much time to spend on them yet. Soon, I hope! | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > I have 2 more weeks until I can officially retire. It's strange making | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > plans for a new phase of life, I'm feeling happy about it, but also a | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > little sad. It's been difficult getting my clients to accept that I | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > won't be working after this month, they always seem to have "just one | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > more project" to get finished. | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > In the end, I will probably continue working with a few of them for at | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > least another year, but the most annoying ones will be dropped this | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > month. That part's actually been fun. I don't have to be nice to them | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > anymore, in fact, I don't have to communicate with them at all, ever | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > again. Makes me happy! :o) | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Anyway, I've been rearranging my work space, and will be getting another | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > wacom tablet soon. I wore my old one out several years ago and I've | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > missed it. It's time to get back to what I do best, which is drawing | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > and painting. My hands are still steady, but my eyes aren't as good as | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > they used to be, so I may have to simplify things a bit. We'll see how | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > it goes. | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:32 |
| schestowitz | > Sorry, I'm rambling. It's after midnight here and it's been a very long | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > day (and a very hectic week), I think I'm just too tired to sleep. And, | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > since I'm wide awake and feeling chatty, I thought I'd send you a | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > message of congratulations and say hi...Hi!... | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > Hope you are well and happy! | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | > Take good care, | Nov 12 08:33 |
| schestowitz | Sometimes one's job can feel like one's hobby, or at least as a way of passing one's time and feel needed in society. Techrights was such a projet, but it was not a job. Being a researcher is more like that, which is why there are Emeritus-like stata around. Could retirement mean more available time for work on software freedom? | Nov 12 08:33 |
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| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M16NjL6Ja2Q&feature=digest_mon | Nov 12 13:04 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Michael Moore on Student Debt: 'The Boot on Your Neck' - YouTube .::. Size~: 120.12 KB | Nov 12 13:04 |
| schestowitz | He says the same thing you said | Nov 12 13:04 |
| qu1j0t3 | :| | Nov 12 13:05 |
| qu1j0t3 | right | Nov 12 13:05 |
| qu1j0t3 | it's designed to create a slave class | Nov 12 13:05 |
| qu1j0t3 | free university is a plank of a classless society ... i.e. anathema to plutocrat | Nov 12 13:06 |
| qu1j0t3 | that's one aspect. there are other mechanisms here too. | Nov 12 13:06 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | I heard this from you too and before that from a friend of mine | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | I keep haring what I thought I was the only one hypothesising | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | And now Moore | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | Debt as a handcuff | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | And banks as rulers | Nov 12 13:14 |
| schestowitz | http://mrpogson.com/2011/11/11/toronto-globe-and-mail-seeks-nominees-for-technologically-innovative-teachers/ | Nov 12 13:18 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Toronto Globe and Mail Seeks Nominees for Technologically Innovative Teachers at Robert Pogson .::. Size~: 31.78 KB | Nov 12 13:18 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes, debt as a handcuff... not a new concept | Nov 12 13:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | it also vaccinates against protesting | Nov 12 13:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | to an extent | Nov 12 13:24 |
| qu1j0t3 | until ppl have no more to lose , which is why the OWS now, and not 1,2,10 years ago | Nov 12 13:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | and also why OWS in other places may not ignite (like Toronto) | Nov 12 13:25 |
| qu1j0t3 | the time isn't right | Nov 12 13:25 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: There is a issue | Nov 12 13:26 |
| oiaohm | Do you know what would happen if students took the practical path. | Nov 12 13:26 |
| oiaohm | This is what is going on here in Australia | Nov 12 13:26 |
| oiaohm | More and more students are not getting debt in the first place. | Nov 12 13:27 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: does it give you the same kind of qualification in the same period? | Nov 12 13:28 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: also, that money has to come from somewhere, so it's a dilute facet of the same problem | Nov 12 13:28 |
| oiaohm | When the result is short falls in the end it does. | Nov 12 13:28 |
| oiaohm | Result was more online universities here. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:29 |
| oiaohm | So you go to work and get degree at same time. | Nov 12 13:29 |
| qu1j0t3 | online universities still have to be paid | Nov 12 13:29 |
| qu1j0t3 | right, but it's part time. | Nov 12 13:29 |
| qu1j0t3 | and this doesn't work for school leavers, in many cases | Nov 12 13:29 |
| qu1j0t3 | because the work available is very limited | Nov 12 13:29 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: the context for this is the tripling (e.g.) of university fees in the UK | Nov 12 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Even if you do a degree you still might not get a job at the end of it. | Nov 12 13:30 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: that's an exclusionary measure, and the remainder are indebted... in some cases, forever. in canada, people are beginning to speculate that their debt will be lifelong. | Nov 12 13:30 |
| oiaohm | online has less physical costs overhead. | Nov 12 13:30 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: that's a different issue. | Nov 12 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Why are costs going up qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:31 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: (getting a job *with* a degree.. of course it's not guaranteed) | Nov 12 13:31 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: unilateral moves in UK, elsewhere | Nov 12 13:31 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: but quite deliberate | Nov 12 13:31 |
| oiaohm | That does done here 4 years ago. | Nov 12 13:31 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes, it's been going on for a while | Nov 12 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Australians being Australians | Nov 12 13:31 |
| qu1j0t3 | but recently it became much more aggressive | Nov 12 13:31 |
| oiaohm | took the common sence path out. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| oiaohm | And went into the mines. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| oiaohm | Yes opps | Nov 12 13:32 |
| oiaohm | Univeristes no students. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes, that's happening here too, to an extent. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| oiaohm | And the online started filling gaps. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| oiaohm | With common sense. | Nov 12 13:32 |
| qu1j0t3 | it doesn't solve the problem though. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Kinda does. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| qu1j0t3 | it can't :) | Nov 12 13:33 |
| schestowitz | [13:24] <qu1j0t3> yes, debt as a handcuff... not a new concept | Nov 12 13:33 |
| oiaohm | People working in mines and else where are not really growing a debt. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| schestowitz | Some people go into debt to do a wedding ceremony | Nov 12 13:33 |
| qu1j0t3 | they're also not getting educated. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| oiaohm | But they are getting educated. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| schestowitz | And they pay for it long after the marriage is ruined, in part due to the debt | Nov 12 13:33 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: nope. | Nov 12 13:33 |
| oiaohm | That is the thing qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:33 |
| oiaohm | Here they are qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:33 |
| qu1j0t3 | well, part time oiaohm | Nov 12 13:33 |
| qu1j0t3 | that isn't the main case under discussion. | Nov 12 13:34 |
| oiaohm | But is not the result the same in the end. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:34 |
| qu1j0t3 | school leavers need full time degrees. | Nov 12 13:34 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: no | Nov 12 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Why do school leaves need full time degrees. | Nov 12 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Be aware you can study full time online | Nov 12 13:34 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: in Australia maybe they need that less. but the rest of the world it's mandatory | Nov 12 13:34 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: usually 2 degrees are a minimum in BRIC | Nov 12 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Note full time on line is offered here. | Nov 12 13:34 |
| oiaohm | So student can be studying where ever they like. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| oiaohm | again this reduces costs. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | it will work for a few. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | but the basic problem remains. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| oiaohm | No large accomindation costs | Nov 12 13:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | also: not an option for UK students, where fees are tripling. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| qu1j0t3 | imagine that. | Nov 12 13:35 |
| oiaohm | We had a big problem where rural students could not afford to study. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:36 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: and now urban ones can't either. outside australia. | Nov 12 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Costs attending physical buildings is still high here qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Because physical building have limit on how many. | Nov 12 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Ie supply and demard problem. | Nov 12 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Full time online options sort out a major supply and demard problem. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:37 |
| qu1j0t3 | there's another phenomenon which Australia and elsewhere all have. university populations are now largely wealthy Chinese/Koreans | Nov 12 13:37 |
| qu1j0t3 | locals can't afford them :) | Nov 12 13:37 |
| oiaohm | online also sorts that out a lot as well. | Nov 12 13:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | and nor can, say, South Americans, or other relatively less wealthy demographics. | Nov 12 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Because they can stay home. | Nov 12 13:38 |
| oiaohm | This is the thing qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: I don't see anything good about this situation | Nov 12 13:38 |
| oiaohm | online provide of university courses sort out the worst problems. | Nov 12 13:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: university should be affordable | Nov 12 13:38 |
| oiaohm | The online courses allow more students in. | Nov 12 13:38 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: and it's been deliberately made unaffordable | Nov 12 13:38 |
| oiaohm | So the cost of the buildings can be shared between more people. | Nov 12 13:39 |
| oiaohm | So the fees end up lower. | Nov 12 13:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | heh | Nov 12 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Before online our uni were going the way of costing doom. | Nov 12 13:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | i don't see fees dropping, do you? | Nov 12 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Last 2 years here yes. | Nov 12 13:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | tell that to UK students | Nov 12 13:39 |
| qu1j0t3 | maybe you'll have a wave of young immigrants who can't afford to study in UK | Nov 12 13:40 |
| oiaohm | All linked to the growth in online study here. | Nov 12 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Ie you cannot charge a higher fee for in building study than online for the same course really. | Nov 12 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Also we did have a issue lot of the asian students want australian students when staying at a collage to prac there english with. | Nov 12 13:41 |
| oiaohm | So yes the number of free placements has increased in the last 2 so the locals would go to physical instead of staying home. | Nov 12 13:42 |
| qu1j0t3 | "you cannot charge a higher fee for in building study" | Nov 12 13:42 |
| qu1j0t3 | so why are university fees so much higher? | Nov 12 13:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | you can't claim that AND claim that online study makes a degree affordable. | Nov 12 13:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | only one of them can be true | Nov 12 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Really it does. | Nov 12 13:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | which of those incompatible things is true? | Nov 12 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Our goverment set up a few universities without buildings. | Nov 12 13:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | this is heading off topic, as far as I can see. | Nov 12 13:44 |
| oiaohm | To competed directly against those with buildings. | Nov 12 13:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | UK students are protesting a tripling of fees. what's the answer for them? | Nov 12 13:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | online? who's going to set that up? maybe if you email their PM | Nov 12 13:44 |
| oiaohm | They need a online universitity. | Nov 12 13:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | they already have them, I expect. | Nov 12 13:44 |
| qu1j0t3 | schestowitz can tell us | Nov 12 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Setup to run a low cost. | Nov 12 13:45 |
| oiaohm | Its competition game. | Nov 12 13:45 |
| qu1j0t3 | what you're saying may be specific to australia. | Nov 12 13:45 |
| qu1j0t3 | elsewhere, universities aren't getting cheaper. they're getting more expensive. | Nov 12 13:45 |
| oiaohm | Some areas are following the australian way to get cost down. | Nov 12 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Also it is the fact that the Australian goverment lost big money on student loans. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Who is backing the loans in the UK. | Nov 12 13:48 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: really the UK almost has the perfect solution to the problem. http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/mod/resource/view.php?id=403922 | Nov 12 13:49 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Getting started - OpenLearn - The Open University .::. Size~: 30.68 KB | Nov 12 13:49 |
| oiaohm | All that has to be solved is how to turn those into accreditation | Nov 12 13:50 |
| oiaohm | At an affordable cost. | Nov 12 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Ie like maybe pay for final exams only qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Even the UN is aware of the cost problems qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:52 |
| oiaohm | http://www.unesco.org is working on producing universal study materials. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 13:57 |
| TechrightsSocial | Missing content type. Ignoring. | Nov 12 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Question is how long until truly global qualfications. | Nov 12 13:57 |
| qu1j0t3 | oiaohm: why did the government lose money on student loans? | Nov 12 14:01 |
| qu1j0t3 | and... | Nov 12 14:01 |
| qu1j0t3 | why is the government in the student loan business? | Nov 12 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Here in Australian no bank would back student loans. | Nov 12 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Serousally. | Nov 12 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Too many would complete courses than declare bankrupt and never have to pay back. | Nov 12 14:02 |
| oiaohm | So the goverment here had no option bar to get in the student loan business. | Nov 12 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Then got stuck with people who failed course and so on who would never reach the required value to have to pay anythign back. | Nov 12 14:03 |
| oiaohm | So yes student loans basically become goverment money black holes with no hope of ever being paid back fully. | Nov 12 14:04 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: I will tell you insane. When I repaid my student loan The goverment accepted 1/10 of the starting figgure. | Nov 12 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Just because I would pay something back. | Nov 12 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Yes no interest payments 1/10 of what the goverment had payed to the unis | Nov 12 14:17 |
| qu1j0t3 | hm, | Nov 12 14:23 |
| qu1j0t3 | so: if students are unable to repay their debt, doesn't that put the whole concept in a different light? | Nov 12 14:23 |
| qu1j0t3 | did anyone stop to ask why | Nov 12 14:23 |
| qu1j0t3 | noting that student loans are NOT discharged by bankruptcy, at least in north america... | Nov 12 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Remember we are talking creative australians here. | Nov 12 14:24 |
| oiaohm | How do you get around cannot clear student loan due to bankrupcy. | Nov 12 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Simple take out another loan pay student debt out then declare bankruptcy | Nov 12 14:25 |
| oiaohm | So leaving the banks holding the can. | Nov 12 14:26 |
| oiaohm | You can guess how long the banks will put up with that. | Nov 12 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Basically if the students start using there IQ the hell they can cause from not being able to repay debt undermines the complete system. | Nov 12 14:27 |
| oiaohm | You are thinking the debt is a problem for the students. qu1j0t3 | Nov 12 14:28 |
| oiaohm | The debt is a problem for the system. | Nov 12 14:28 |
| qu1j0t3 | sounds like the idea of student loans isn't very workable. | Nov 12 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Exactly it is not. | Nov 12 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Student loans are a time bomb. | Nov 12 14:50 |
| oiaohm | That explode once students get to a point of being sick of them that having a bad credit mark against there name no longer means anything. | Nov 12 14:52 |
| oiaohm | qu1j0t3: basically student loans are about smart as ninga loans. | Nov 12 14:55 |
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| schestowitz | +1 | Nov 12 16:04 |
| schestowitz | which prices education out of reach in the West | Nov 12 16:05 |
| schestowitz | And they wonder why there are young protesters | Nov 12 16:05 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/795240 | Nov 12 16:11 |
| schestowitz | "Not even that much. Jennifer Anniston's apparent discontent with her latest hairstyle is enough to cut the mustard." | Nov 12 16:11 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 16:11 |
| schestowitz | "You're right!" | Nov 12 16:11 |
| schestowitz | "The system is obviously broken and has to be fixed before it gets to the stage of costing too much." http://joindiaspora.com/posts/795003 | Nov 12 16:12 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 16:12 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: | Nov 12 16:12 |
| schestowitz | '"Reportedly, in some states, public employment may be terminated as the result of student loan delinquencies." So in the US higher education may actually become a barrier to entry into employment in the public sector. http://solari.com/blog/special-solari-report-the-student-loan-scam/ ' | Nov 12 16:12 |
| schestowitz | http://joindiaspora.com/posts/795324 | Nov 12 16:12 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Special Solari Report: The Student Loan Scam | The Solari Report Blog .::. Size~: 113.88 KB | Nov 12 16:12 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 16:12 |
| *gnufreex (~quassel@178.222.196.188) has joined #boycottnovell-social | Nov 12 16:15 | |
| qu1j0t3 | schestowitz: http://www.quora.com/Who-are-the-greatest-editorial-cartoonists-working-in-the-world-today/answer/Brian-Browne-Walker | Nov 12 17:08 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Brian Browne Walker's answer to Who are the greatest editorial cartoonists working in the world today? - Quora .::. Size~: 46.59 KB | Nov 12 17:08 |
| qu1j0t3 | schestowitz: http://www.salon.com/2011/11/04/intelligence_agencies_step_up_the_twitter_and_facebook_trawling/singleton | Nov 12 17:16 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Intelligence agencies step up the Twitter and Facebook trawling - Salon.com .::. Size~: 83.49 KB | Nov 12 17:16 |
| qu1j0t3 | 'our sprawling intelligence and national security apparatus was caught off-guard by social media-fueled uprisings in the Middle East and North Africa, and that they were going to take steps to be better prepared in the future. | Nov 12 17:26 |
| qu1j0t3 | DHS Undersecretary Caryn Wagner said the department was still trying to figure out how to use Twitter and Facebook information for law enforcement purposes. | Nov 12 17:26 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Nov 12 17:42 |
| schestowitz | I saw some reports that help confirm this | Nov 12 17:43 |
| schestowitz | This also reaffirmed what Assange had said months earlier | Nov 12 17:43 |
| schestowitz | But he uses twitter in two accounts, his and wikileaks' | Nov 12 17:43 |
| schestowitz | Actually, I think many wikileaks activists use twitter | Nov 12 17:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | the whole article is worth reading | Nov 12 17:53 |
| qu1j0t3 | they admit the CIA is already doing it, but "these CIA analysts are totally cool, like the goth hacker lady in those books you like" | Nov 12 17:55 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, I heard so | Nov 12 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I don't have much time to read though | Nov 12 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I need to do some other work first | Nov 12 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I added this to daily links | Nov 12 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I also need to read up on the Gates Fundamentalism later | Nov 12 17:56 |
| qu1j0t3 | schestowitz: https://twitter.com/#!/NYTimesFriedman | Nov 12 18:06 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Thomas L. Friedman (@NYTimesFriedman) on Twitter .::. Size~: 47.99 KB | Nov 12 18:06 |
| schestowitz | > "Could retirement mean more available time for work on software freedom?" | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | The cause of freedom fails to attract many young people, who are too busy paying back student loans and cannot afford activism in general. | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > The answer to your question is "yes" - at least I hope to do so. But my | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > approach will likely branch out a bit from plain advocacy. I believe | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > it's time for someone to speak up for that greatly maligned, massively | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > misunderstood segment of the Free Software world that so many have | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > branded as "your average user". It's a subject that gets me riled. | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > Seriously. | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Software patents are an element of this, but their effect is mostly hidden, as Tim stresses repeatedly in TechBytes. | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > What's really sad is that it now seems trendy to look down on new Linux | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > users (or potential ones), and use their lack of knowledge (which is a | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > temporary state of being) as a hammer to beat those "average users" over | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > the head with. On most of the forums I frequently visit, there are many | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > who somehow feel they can speak FOR those users...as in "your average | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > user doesn't care about freedom, or customising, or blah blah blah"...or | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > "your average user is lazy, clueless, gullible, blah blah blah". Tim | Nov 12 18:11 |
| schestowitz | > (Goblin) is one of the worst at saying this type of thing. I know he | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > means well, and I'm sure he feels his personal experiences justify his | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > low opinions of "your average user". However, I believe that he (and | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > many many others like him) are so convinced of their opinions that | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > they've stopped bothering to actually pay attention to what any those | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > "average users" really want or care about. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | Right. I see what you mean. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > I know this may sound like I'm heading into hostile territory, but the | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > truth is that I've been in the middle of this kind of situation for | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > nearly 16 years now For some odd reason I seem to have ended up, many | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > many times, between "average users" and the OTHER people in their lives | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > that they relied on to help them with their computers (in the old days | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > it was Windows, but it's the same problems now). Why me? I think it's | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > because I gained a reputation for not treating people like they were | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > stupid. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | For many who are geeks, computers provide an opportunity to get that inferiority complex out in the wild :-) | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > And yes, I have some excellent real-life examples to show how those | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > popular assumptions of the "average user" might not be the | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > carved-in-stone-truth as many (like Tim) want to believe. The truth is | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > that, if people are called stupid often enough, they will come to | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > believe it. There are certainly some who fit the popular description, | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > but I've found them to be in the minority and it's purely shameful, and | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > deeply unfair, to paint all of them with the same brush. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | The same goes for many things. Trying to stereotype people can condition them into thinking that are, indeed, part of that stereotype. One example is Linux as "a minority", a "failure", or "amateur". | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > Anyway, it's a subject that's been on my mind for a very long time, but | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > in recent years I've become increasingly infuriated, because I see the | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > growing popularity of disparaging the very people who are already being | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > victimised by Microsoft and Apple. When they are ready to move away | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > from using products from abusive corporations, where will they go? I'd | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > hope they'd go where they feel welcomed, but there is no such place any | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > more. It's appalling. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | I never thought of it that way. I think that Linux Mint is one of those communities where people don't experience this, but I may be wrong. Fedora and Ubuntu are not so newbies-friendly, not their forums anyway. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > Since writing about it seems less effective (I am not a writer), I think | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > the right tool for me to use to get the message across will be my | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > artwork. Some pointed cartoons that show the *other* side of the | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > conversation are what I'd like to begin with. I guess I have as much | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > right to speak up for the lowly "average user" as anyone. Yes? | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | Do you want an author account in Techrights? You can run that alongside your own blog and post the same stories/cartoons in both. It was only in July that I created new author accounts. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > Haha, Some serious Grandma Rage might be awesome! :D | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | No rage, it's actually phrased politely in my opinion. | Nov 12 18:12 |
| schestowitz | > Also, I don't mean to beat up on Tim. Honestly, I know he doesn't mean | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > to cause harm or hurt people, but I also think he doesn't believe any of | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > those "average users" could possibly be listening to him talk about (or | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > for) them, so he doesn't worry about how his words might affect them. | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > If there's a change that I'd like to help create, it's to get "average | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > users" to find their own voices and not to let those "average user" | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > labels discourage them. And maybe get the community to see the "average | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > user" in a different light...maybe even see them as an important asset | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > to be nurtured. | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | For me, there is no "Average User" but some issue that I think I'm good at dealing with cause I thought and spoke about them many times. I classify separately at another level, e.g. patent lawyers vs developers (i.e. occupations). | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > I know that in the world of Free Software it's not enough to just | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > criticize and point out problems, it's important to also find and share | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > solutions. So that's what I'm hoping to do. | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | I think FOSS can be very reactionary. The older world was very proprietary (dawn of computer was open), so we want to take back control. | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > Which is a WHOLE lot more than what you probably wanted to hear...but | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | > it's my plan. | Nov 12 18:13 |
| schestowitz | Techrights can hopefully help that plan. One thing we don't deal with is purely technical stuff because it takes a lot of work to publish on that. | Nov 12 18:13 |
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| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gNByGwS8ViY2xH6wq3tdxEHGvB1g?docId=90bc4e40524b4d13a26836fd191e8f24 | Nov 12 19:28 |
| TechrightsSocial | Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 410 Gone | Nov 12 19:28 |
| schestowitz | "Bill Gates: Poverty not excuse for no education" | Nov 12 19:28 |
| schestowitz | Says the man who was born rich | Nov 12 19:28 |
| schestowitz | and didn't finish college | Nov 12 19:28 |
| schestowitz | what a POS | Nov 12 19:28 |
| schestowitz | "Remember how nice FDR was to Daddy Warbucks in the screen version of (Little Orphan) Annie? The White House Science Adviser is being excruciatingly polite to the technophiles at the Gates Foundation in this op ed." -Gates Watcher about http://www.usaid.gov/press/frontlines/fl_jun11/FL_jun11_HOLDREN.html | Nov 12 19:33 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: USAID FRONTLINES: A Message from the White House Science Advisor .::. Size~: 37.73 KB | Nov 12 19:33 |
| schestowitz | what a POShttp://gateskeepers.civiblog.org/blog/_archives/2011/7/30/4868528.html "Bihar needs telemedicine. And Duke University to show them how to evaluate it." | Nov 12 19:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Gates Keepers :: The Gates Foundation thinks Bihar needs telemedecine .::. Size~: 19.09 KB | Nov 12 19:35 |
| schestowitz | free climincal trials | Nov 12 19:35 |
| schestowitz | Just call it "donation" | Nov 12 19:35 |
| schestowitz | *clinical | Nov 12 19:36 |
| schestowitz | Some very sick stuff I see today from the fundamentalists | Nov 12 19:41 |
| schestowitz | [plutocrats] | Nov 12 19:41 |
| schestowitz | And most people have so much ind ebt to them they they cannot do much to counter it | Nov 12 19:41 |
| schestowitz | just attend some protests out there | Nov 12 19:41 |
| schestowitz | while others can afford the time to peacefully write about these issues and shed light on the injustices | Nov 12 19:41 |
| schestowitz | http://joindiaspora.com/posts/795003 | Nov 12 19:50 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 19:51 |
| schestowitz | "The biggest crimes tend to be legal because those who commit those crimes are so wealthy that they can afford to "legalise" them" | Nov 12 19:51 |
| schestowitz | "Succinctly put, both of you. " | Nov 12 19:51 |
| schestowitz | >>>The same goes for many things. Trying to stereotype people can condition | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > them into thinking that are, indeed, part of that stereotype. One | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > example is Linux as "a minority", a "failure", or "amateur".<< | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > Oh my, YES! That's exactly what I mean. | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | It's also a way of discrediting and making miserable particular people, e.g. a spouse or a child. I saw it as it happened. People are being told they are worthless until they become submissive with a very low self esteem. | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Nov 12 19:58 | |
| schestowitz | > Anyway, my plans are just in the beginning stages right now. In | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > December, after all my current work projects are finished, and while the | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > rest of the world is busy with its yearly holiday insanity (I don't | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > celebrate x-mas, so I always look forward to having a quiet few weeks | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > between mid-November and New Years) I'll be working on my first series | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > of cartoons. I have several sketched out, but need to turn them into | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > clean, crisp vector art. | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > When I have a few good ones ready to go, I'll take you up on the guest | Nov 12 19:58 |
| schestowitz | > author offer. It's a great idea. Thanks! | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Fantastic!! | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > Also, when I have some things online, so I actually have something to | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > talk about, then I'd like to have a chat with you and Tim on Techbytes. | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > No Grandma Rage, I promise...lol I'll be nice to Tim. He's a nice guy | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > and I think we can have a fun discussion. | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | > :o) Take care! | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Anything that you have on the computer from all those years can and perhaps should go online at some stage (where appropriate) for future preservation. My relative Anita has had her stuff uploaded by me many years ago, little by little. http://schestowitz.com/Anita/ | Nov 12 19:59 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Anita Tobkes .::. Size~: 5.42 KB | Nov 12 19:59 |
| schestowitz | There is a lot of stuff like thoughts, essays and artwork that people never make publicly available, so people will not get a chance to appreciate it. http://tobkes.othellomaster.com/ | Nov 12 19:59 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Harvey Tobkes .::. Size~: 99.3 KB | Nov 12 19:59 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:17:19] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: hehe.. someone in my channel just posted http://s.gullipics.com/image/t/e/i/hq2x3b-jwz3dg-smzi/img.jpeg | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:17:39] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: did you get something nice from Tesco? Any tea? | Nov 12 20:23 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:21:40] xxxxxx: lol that;s good and so true | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:21:53] xxxxxx: yeah good some nice food just had an indian meal right now | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:22:00] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: so you're not an apple fan, right? | Nov 12 20:23 |
| schestowitz | [20:22:24] xxxxxx: i'm not fussed but i used my cousin's apple computer about a few months ago and i found it pretty crap | Nov 12 20:23 |
| MinceR | :> | Nov 12 20:24 |
| MinceR | i used a hypeMac in a shop and it was craptastic | Nov 12 20:24 |
| schestowitz | Is it as bad as OS 9? | Nov 12 20:28 |
| schestowitz | I remember how it was extremely inflexible | Nov 12 20:28 |
| schestowitz | There was not much you could do with it | Nov 12 20:28 |
| MinceR | i think it's worse | Nov 12 20:29 |
| MinceR | more of the stupid gimmicks | Nov 12 20:29 |
| MinceR | they've managed to implement something that looks like maximize, but it's stupid (it covers the menu bar) | Nov 12 20:29 |
| MinceR | the mouse had no scroll wheel and the scroll bar of their shitty browser was pretty unusable | Nov 12 20:29 |
| MinceR | autohid itself and shit like that | Nov 12 20:30 |
| MinceR | you can tell how much fun i had scrolling through a web page | Nov 12 20:30 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/neelie-kroes/how-fast-is-your-broadband/ | Nov 12 20:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: How fast is your broadband? Volunteers wanted across Europe! « Digital Agenda Commissioner – Neelie Kroes .::. Size~: 34.82 KB | Nov 12 20:35 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: they make it impossible to confuigure much | Nov 12 20:35 |
| schestowitz | Too rigid for me | Nov 12 20:35 |
| schestowitz | and the workflow was lacking | Nov 12 20:36 |
| schestowitz | I used that at work to just read PDFs | Nov 12 20:36 |
| schestowitz | It was useless for anything else | Nov 12 20:36 |
| schestowitz | Even Web surfing it did not do well, WIndows at the time did better | Nov 12 20:36 |
| schestowitz | around 2002-3 | Nov 12 20:36 |
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| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Internet,_nobody_knows_you%27re_a_dog | Nov 12 21:24 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 52.79 KB | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | s | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | [21:22:40] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: when I meet in person it's easier than in text for all sorts of reasons [...] | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | [21:22:58] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: peopl whom I know from everyday life I can generally visuaise | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | [21:23:09] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: and can get a feel for what they sound like and act like | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | [21:23:14] Dr. Roy Schestowitz: there's a saying | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | which sums it up | Nov 12 21:24 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Intel-tablet-chip-plans/?kc=rss | Nov 12 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Poor Intekl | Nov 12 21:42 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Intel planning tablet-only processors, says report - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 56.99 KB | Nov 12 21:42 |
| schestowitz | Can't make a compelling case for x86 in devices | Nov 12 21:42 |
| MinceR | poor, stupid intel sold off StrongARM | Nov 12 21:43 |
| qu1j0t3 | :) | Nov 12 21:50 |
| schestowitz | hehe | Nov 12 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Atom is dead too | Nov 12 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Notice how it barely gets mentioned anymore | Nov 12 21:52 |
| schestowitz | It died with the "netbook" | Nov 12 21:53 |
| MinceR | not sure about that | Nov 12 21:53 |
| MinceR | the newest PC i've got with Atom is a nettop :> | Nov 12 21:54 |
| schestowitz | hmm.. maybe it's still around then | Nov 12 22:31 |
| schestowitz | qu1j0t3: "I've never been a big fan of Moore's. In the past he's appeared to be serving his own promotional interests in employing public issues, but he's right on the nail with this one and appears to be more genuine than I've previously seen him. " | Nov 12 22:44 |
| schestowitz | http://joindiaspora.com/posts/795324 | Nov 12 22:44 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 22:44 |
| schestowitz | "Would it be too conspiracy minded to say that long term crippling debt is the intended outcome of this policy? Margaret Thatcher castrated the British working classes in the 80s by encouraging them all to buy houses and get mortgages. The student loan system is intended to do the same to the middle classes. Debt is slavery - we are the 99% " http://joindiaspora.com/posts/795324 | Nov 12 22:59 |
| TechrightsSocial | @: | Nov 12 22:59 |
| qu1j0t3 | not too conspiracy minded at all | Nov 12 23:08 |
| qu1j0t3 | debt isn't wealth | Nov 12 23:08 |
| schestowitz | to some people it's an endless source of income | Nov 12 23:15 |
| schestowitz | money makes money | Nov 12 23:15 |
| schestowitz | they are interest leeches | Nov 12 23:15 |
| schestowitz | and so the economic gap widens | Nov 12 23:15 |
| schestowitz | Interest rates decline for savings and increase for loans | Nov 12 23:16 |
| schestowitz | And we know who that benefits and who this crushes | Nov 12 23:16 |
| qu1j0t3 | yes | Nov 12 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | think of Gates: | Nov 12 23:52 |
| schestowitz | "Sam wrote, “People join the Ubuntu community – or any other free software or open source software community for that matter – for their own selfish reasons. Every human act, no matter how altruistic it may appear on the surface, is ultimately selfish.”" http://mrpogson.com/2011/11/12/entitlement-no-sharing-yes/ | Nov 12 23:52 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Entitlement? No. Sharing? Yes. at Robert Pogson .::. Size~: 36.12 KB | Nov 12 23:52 |
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