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Viper550Well that's something you saw coming.Sep 03 04:18
Viper550A long time ago.Sep 03 04:18
Viper550M$ is buying Nokia's hardware and services divisions Microsoft buys Nokia's Devices and Services Unit, unites Windows Phone 8 and its hardware makerSep 03 04:21
Viper550whoopsSep 03 04:21
Viper550 03 04:21 | Microsoft buys Nokia's Devices and Services Unit, unites Windows Phone 8 and its hardware maker | The Verge  [ ]Sep 03 04:21
Viper550this is only a formality, Microsoft has owned them for a long timeSep 03 04:21
MinceRindeedSep 03 07:00
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iophkLicense or own?Sep 03 08:12
iophk        "The Redmond, Wash., company will also pay 1.65 billion EUR Sep 03 08:12
iophk        to license Nokia's patents,"Sep 03 08:12
iophk Sep 03 08:12 | Microsoft to Buy Nokia Mobile Business in $7 Billion Deal -  [ ]Sep 03 08:12
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oiaohmI guess everyone seen that Microsoft is Aquiring Nokia.Sep 03 09:00
MinceRindeedSep 03 09:08
MinceRiophk: might be they'll keep ownership at mokia so it can work as a patent trollSep 03 09:09
oiaohmIts fairly much a kiss of death for anyone making a Windows Mobile phone other than Microsoft.Sep 03 09:09
iophkdance mokia, danceSep 03 09:09
MinceRdance monkey boySep 03 09:09
MinceRoiaohm: that was a kiss of death regardlessSep 03 09:10
iophkyes, itwas a goner once elop showed upSep 03 09:10
MinceRnobody buys winblows mobile any more; nobody ever bought or will ever buy a winblows phoneSep 03 09:10
oiaohmMinceR: HTC and a few other still make Windows Phone models.Sep 03 09:10
MinceRyes, but nobody buys themSep 03 09:10
iophkThe only purchases are probably corporate inertia where institutions had old contracts to buy Nokia phones.Sep 03 09:11
MinceRm$ successfully copied the total lack of value of hypeOS but failed to copy the hypeSep 03 09:11
oiaohmBut I will not be supprised if next season only 1 slot total for Windows Phone.Sep 03 09:11
iophkOnce they get burned by Mokia foisting Windows phones on the new purchasers, they will get those contracts fixed to allow HTC and others.Sep 03 09:11
oiaohmWindows RT all over again.Sep 03 09:11
iophk"they can't even copy well"Sep 03 09:12
MinceRindeedSep 03 09:12
iophkThey've been trying since the 1980's, losing that look-and-feel case over the trashcanSep 03 09:12
oiaohmI know a lot of people who would still buy feature phones if they could.Sep 03 09:13
oiaohmReally Nokia should have stayed with what they were good at.Sep 03 09:13
MinceRthere still are many featurephonesSep 03 09:13
iophkAll it needs to  do is keep a phone list and make phone calls, anything else is a waste of battery.Sep 03 09:13
MinceRnokia stopped being good at it long agoSep 03 09:13
MinceRboth my nokia phones sucked, for different reasonsSep 03 09:14
iophkMinceR.  How recent are they?  The old ones were good, but starting 6 -7 years ago they started to suckSep 03 09:14
iophkOne model even seemed to collect condensation inside.Sep 03 09:14
MinceR6101, n97Sep 03 09:15
MinceRin the former, the electronics were fine but the casing was rubbishSep 03 09:15
MinceRin the latter, the casing was fine but the electronics were rubbishSep 03 09:15
iophkwasn't that after they moved production out o?f EuropeSep 03 09:16
MinceRcould beSep 03 09:17
MinceRi don't knowSep 03 09:17
iophkThe move to WindowsPhone caused a lot of harm. 03 09:17 | Nokia Phones "Made in Finland" No Longer - John Paczkowski - News - AllThingsD  [ ]Sep 03 09:17
iophkI hope the Finns are as stubborn about remembering as they are in other areas.Sep 03 09:18
MinceR2005 and 2009, respectivelySep 03 09:18
iophkA lot don't want to let go of the Jorma Ollila mythSep 03 09:18
MinceRso apparently both were made in finlandSep 03 09:18
iophkThere was a lot made in India and other places, too.  I'm looking for the yearSep 03 09:19
iophkThereSep 03 09:21
iophkwere factories in Mexico and HungarySep 03 09:21
iophkand RomaniaSep 03 09:22
MinceRthey could also very well be design flawsSep 03 09:23
oiaohmReally I have had some very good nokia phones.Sep 03 09:24
iophkThe condensation was certainly a design flaw.  It happened when going in and out of doors in the winter.Sep 03 09:24
MinceRi've heard of good nokia phones from others tooSep 03 09:24
oiaohmMinceR: all mine where after the year 2000 and before Nokia started making Windows Mobile.Sep 03 09:24
iophkAlso some models, i forget which, had screens that could not be read even a little out of doors during daylight.Sep 03 09:24
MinceRmainly back when i didn't have a mobile phone at all, yet :>Sep 03 09:24
MinceRi don't recall nokia making winblows mobile, only winblows phoneSep 03 09:25
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oiaohmMinceR: windows mobile from nokia came just before winblows phone.Sep 03 09:25
oiaohmfor years Nokia was symbian symbian and more symbian.Sep 03 09:25
oiaohmIf you wanted OS other than symbian go elsewhere basically.Sep 03 09:26
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iophkElop has gutted the company, even selling off the headquarters.  Selling the HQ is not a sign of being around for the long term.Sep 03 09:26
iophkThe money was used to prop up failing budget reports.Sep 03 09:26
MinceRwhat was the winblows mobile phone from nokia called? or winblows phone came out before they came out with a model?Sep 03 09:27
iophkProblem finding it.  You have ((windows mobile) phone) and (windows (mobile phone)) to weed through.Sep 03 09:28
MinceRicSep 03 09:28
iophk 03 09:29 | Available Nokia mobile phones in market  [ ]Sep 03 09:29
iophkWill Finland have a national day of mourning and a wake to note the passing of Nokia?Sep 03 09:29
MinceRthey could just support jolla insteadSep 03 09:30
MinceRjolla is doing what nokia should be doingSep 03 09:30
iophkJolla is getting almost no press coverage.  Sep 03 09:30
iophkThey did sell out pre-orders though.Sep 03 09:30
iophkSadly, the UI is closed if I understand correctly.Sep 03 09:31
MinceRindeed, but i suspect that nokia's is tooSep 03 09:31
MinceR(swipe, iirc)Sep 03 09:31
MinceRs/is/was/Sep 03 09:31
oiaohmiophk: Jolla target is patent free countries mostly.Sep 03 09:31
iophkYes, they are aiming at China first.Sep 03 09:32
iophkIt's an unsaturated market for smartphones.Sep 03 09:32
iophkSmartphones need charging about every day.   The old feature phones needed only every few days, with heavy use, or over a week when idle.  Sep 03 09:33
oiaohm most of Jolla source code is public.Sep 03 09:33 | NO TITLESep 03 09:33
iophkHow much more power does that cosume.Sep 03 09:33
iophkMost of Sailfish is OSSSep 03 09:33
oiaohmJolla is not that interested in locking it up too much.Sep 03 09:33
oiaohmiophk: remember Jolla is in the hardware business to a point.Sep 03 09:34
oiaohmThey design make the phones as well as the OS.Sep 03 09:34
MinceRi hope they at least won't repeat AegisSep 03 09:35
iophkThe wikipedia page for Sailfish has a good overview ofthe system layers, but no indicator of what is open or closed.Sep 03 09:35
oiaohmiophk: Mer is 100 percent FOSS.Sep 03 09:37
oiaohm 03 09:38 | Mer Wiki  [ ]Sep 03 09:38
iophkVery good.Sep 03 09:38
oiaohmiophk: nemo is the open source sailfish compadbile GUI.Sep 03 09:38
oiaohmBasically sailfish takes snapshots of nemo and open source developers are free to take nemo where they choose.Sep 03 09:39
oiaohmand of course the Qt used is open source.Sep 03 09:39
oiaohmSo sailfish OS is custom choosen snapshots of open soruce projects.Sep 03 09:40
iophkI suppose Qt is now safer now at Digia away from MokiaSep 03 09:40
oiaohmOther than the appstore of course.Sep 03 09:40
oiaohmNokia did some good changing Qt from is restrictive licensing to LGPL.Sep 03 09:40
iophkI didn't see that as good.  Changing the license eliminated the possibility of the dual-license income model.Sep 03 09:41
iophkThat way contributions came in, either in the form of code or as money.Sep 03 09:42
MinceRcode was enough for GTK+, it seemsSep 03 09:42
MinceRwhy isn't it enough for Qt?Sep 03 09:42
iophkIf people wanted to close off the product, they could always pay for that option.  Now Digia / Qt gets nothing.Sep 03 09:42
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iophkHow long has GTK+ been LGPL?Sep 03 09:43
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iophkI got the impression that GTK+ was quite inferior to Qt, but that's not my area at all.Sep 03 09:43
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MinceRmy impression was that it was not inferior at allSep 03 09:45
iophkA lot uses GTK+, to be sure.Sep 03 09:47
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MinceRwell, except for its obsession with making selected-by-default texts the primary selectionSep 03 10:07
iophka little old - 03 10:07 | Former Nokia exec: Microsoft means death for the company - Neowin  [ ]Sep 03 10:07
iophkNow Mokia will be the Zune of mobile phones.Sep 03 10:08
MinceRthe Kin of mobile phones ;)Sep 03 10:09
iophkA lot of small investors mistook Nokia for a bluechip and lost a lot of money.  This sale will make those that are still around lose even more.Sep 03 10:12
MinceRthe ones who are still around deserve to lose even moreSep 03 10:12
iophkYeah, they could not or would not see what was happening before their eyes.Sep 03 10:12
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MinceRthe "burning platform" memo should have been a clear signal to sell everything while they still canSep 03 10:12
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MinceRalso, the BoD also deserved their shares to lose their valueSep 03 10:13
MinceRthey should have never allowed an "ex"-m$-er to get the CEO seatSep 03 10:13
iophkAhonen saw that in advanced and ripped on Elop quite a bit.  His only mistake that I could see was claiming that Elop was incompetent.  It's now apparent that he was doing all that intentionally.Sep 03 10:13
iophkI suspect there is no such thing as an "ex" M$-er.  They never stop working for M$ even if they do start taking money from another company as pay.Sep 03 10:14
MinceRindeedSep 03 10:14
iophkAt the top levels, there are no-compete clauses and biog stock payoffs tied to not criticizing or allowing others to critisize M$Sep 03 10:15
iophkat the lower levels it is much creepier.Sep 03 10:15
JimmyCarterlol if ms could just fix their sw bugs they would be fineSep 03 10:21
iophkIf you took away the bugs there would be nothing left. :>Sep 03 10:22
JimmyCarterhahSep 03 10:22
JimmyCarterwindows source code must be like the hunger gamesSep 03 10:22
iophk100% spaghetti code and cruftSep 03 10:23
JimmyCarteri wonder how many linesSep 03 10:25
iophkbillions and billionsSep 03 10:25
iophkIt was very lucky that Qt got sold off.Sep 03 10:26
JimmyCarteri havent used qt in over 5 yr i guess its improvedSep 03 10:38
JimmyCarteri do multiplat dev but just use my own os asbtraction, which i learned can be very tiny.  i dont do extensive guis tho, just a few game menusSep 03 10:42
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JimmyCarterim also familiar with webkit rendering Sep 03 10:44
JimmyCarterthere's somewhat of a conflict between widget designers and html/css for how to handle guisSep 03 10:46
JimmyCarteri would somewhat like to see a project like Qt that is first a web browser, and uses html/css to layout guiSep 03 10:47
oiaohmJimmyCarter: Ok you are talking the general cat fight.Sep 03 10:47
oiaohmWhere they have 3 different format for html 5 apps out side web browser.Sep 03 10:48
JimmyCarterporting Qt app to a web page and vice versa takes too longSep 03 10:49
MinceRm$ could not fix their bugs, their entire corporate structure is arranged to prevent itSep 03 10:53
MinceRalso, they aren't willing to spend on development or testingSep 03 10:53
MinceRalso, they can't fix their design flaws, most if which are intentionalSep 03 10:54
iophkM$ reputation keeps skilled people from seeking jobs there.  Stack ranking and the toxic work enviroment keep those with even mediocre skills fromrising to the top.Sep 03 10:54
oiaohmJimmyCarter: have you even done the horible of using qt own server.Sep 03 10:55
MinceR 03 10:56
TechrightsBot-tr@ltm: The Microsoft/Nokia deal visualized. 03 10:56
TechrightsBot-tr@ltm: The Microsoft/Nokia deal visualized. 03 10:56
JimmyCarterno i dont think so oiaohmSep 03 10:56
oiaohmJimmyCarter:  Ok this is another stack of evil I was not even thinking of.Sep 03 10:58 | Qt_for_Google_Native_Client | Qt Wiki | Qt Project  [ ]Sep 03 10:58
oiaohmHmm TechrightsBot-tr cure your hick ups.Sep 03 11:11
MinceR:)Sep 03 11:11
oiaohmDid everyone else get TechrightsBot sending  The Microsoft/Nokia deal visualized. twiceSep 03 11:12
MinceRindeed.Sep 03 11:12
oiaohmOk so its not a client bug myside.Sep 03 11:12
JimmyCarternacl is coolSep 03 11:15
JimmyCarter 03 11:15 | FAQ - Native Client — Google Developers  [ ]Sep 03 11:15
oiaohmJimmyCarter: not enough support yet.Sep 03 11:17
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XFaCEschestowitz: so Microsoft has now "officially" bought NokiaSep 03 13:34
XFaCEI guess we are all supposed to be in shock and aweSep 03 13:34
iophkXFaCE: roy is still awaySep 03 13:35
XFaCEahSep 03 13:35
XFaCEwell stillSep 03 13:35
XFaCEiophk: are you in shock and awe? XDSep 03 13:35
iophkElop did turn out to be the trojan that everyone claimed he was.Sep 03 13:35
XFaCE"Nokia's Canadian boss Stephen Elop, who ran Microsoft's business software division before jumping to Nokia in 2010, will return to the U.S. firm as head of its mobile devices business - a Trojan horse, according to disgruntled Finnish media.Sep 03 13:36
XFaCEHe is being discussed as a possible replacement for Microsoft's retiring CEO Steve Ballmer, who is trying to remake the U.S. firm into a gadget and services company like Apple before he departs, though it has fallen short so far in its attempts to compete in mobile devices."Sep 03 13:36
XFaCE 03 13:36 | Nokia to sell handset business to Microsoft for $7.2 billion | Reuters  [ ]Sep 03 13:36
XFaCE*a Trojan horse, according to disgruntled Finnish media.*Sep 03 13:36
XFaCElololololSep 03 13:36
iophkHe was called a trojan horse since his arrival.  'Sep 03 13:36
XFaCEyes, don't actually investigate why it is according to themSep 03 13:36
iophkNone of his decisions have benefited Nokia.  Sep 03 13:36
iophkNokia -> MokiaSep 03 13:36
XFaCEcause god dammit, maybe you'd actually report this according to ReutersSep 03 13:37
XFaCEyou know, journalismSep 03 13:37
iophkI expect that during the next days there will be yet more revisionism.Sep 03 13:37
iophk... especially about the 'burning platform' memoSep 03 13:37
XFaCE"It's very clear to me that rationally this is the right step going forward," Elop told reporters, though he added he also felt "a great deal of sadness" over the outcome.Sep 03 13:37
XFaCEIn three years under Elop, Nokia saw its market share collapse and its share price shrivel."Sep 03 13:37
XFaCEiophk: The expected crocodile tearsSep 03 13:38
iophkAFAIK he didn't even move house to Finland, not even to HelsinkiSep 03 13:38
iophkAhonen has caught up with the newsSep 03 13:38
iophk 03 13:38 | Communities Dominate Brands: Another Death in Smartphone Bloodbath - Windows Phone strategy so failed, now Nokia handset unit sold - to MIcrosoft  [ ]Sep 03 13:38
iophkWith the acquisition M$ should be able to better hide the losses of the Windows Phone.Sep 03 13:39
iophkShuffle it in with some other produts to make the reporting more obscure.Sep 03 13:39
XFaCEand with Blackberry scuttling off, they are now number 4Sep 03 13:40
XFaCEor whateverSep 03 13:40
iophkJolla / Sailfish is aiming for China.  they could become #3 quicklySep 03 13:40
XFaCEiophk: "Nokia's Canadian boss Stephen Elop,"Sep 03 13:41
XFaCEdamn, never knew this until nowSep 03 13:42
XFaCEit's even more depressingSep 03 13:42
iophkHe hasn't been Canadian fora while.  He's from M$.Sep 03 13:42
oiaohmiophk: really no hidding the losses will not be better inside Microsoft.Sep 03 13:42
XFaCEsince what Elop did to Nokia is reminiscent of the Nortel abusesSep 03 13:42
iophkOr SGISep 03 13:42
iophkor HPSep 03 13:42
oiaohmiophk: taking in Nokia expands MS operating costs.Sep 03 13:42
XFaCEOr WorldcomSep 03 13:42
XFaCEiophk: RareSep 03 13:43
XFaCENetscapeSep 03 13:43
XFaCENovellSep 03 13:43
XFaCESunSep 03 13:43
iophkYes, their operating costs / losses increase but the ability to hide the losses also increasesSep 03 13:43
iophkCanonical now has a M$ mole, tooSep 03 13:43
XFaCEoiaohm: easier to use the same tricky dicky accounting when the company is fully under your controlSep 03 13:43
oiaohmXFaCE: you are forgeting PC sales are slowing.Sep 03 13:44
oiaohmXFaCE: Microsoft is having less budget to play with.Sep 03 13:44
iophk 03 13:44 | Man From Microsoft Runs the Ubuntu Project Now | Techrights  [ ]Sep 03 13:44
iophkM$ depends on OEM sales for much of its money, both Windows and Office are OEM-dependent.Sep 03 13:44
oiaohmiophk: yes and OEM sales are slowing year after year.Sep 03 13:45
iophkAlso, they might have been growth dependent, which makes them gambling on a debt that gets paid with future money.Sep 03 13:45
iophkExcept in a stagnant market the extra money never comes.Sep 03 13:45
iophkOEM sales have been slow for over a decade and gradually slowing over time.Sep 03 13:45
oiaohmiophk: really you have missed the other changes.Sep 03 13:46
iophkprobably.  Sep 03 13:46
oiaohmNvidia grid is a sign of the mainframe returning to business.Sep 03 13:46
XFaCEoiaohm: And finally, buying Nokia is an easy was to get fake hype from a purchaseSep 03 13:46
XFaCEfake in that for anyone who's been paying attention, MS buying Nokia is completely unsurprising and close to non-newsSep 03 13:46
oiaohmOf course Linux with wayland and the dri3 alterations will follow Nvidia into the Office mainframe.Sep 03 13:46
XFaCEoiaohm: But that's not how it'll be reported in MSMSep 03 13:46
oiaohmXFaCE: Of course I expect MS to put a postive spin on.   Completley miss that Nokia has been bleeding cash.Sep 03 13:47
iophkI was surprised by the purchase because there is so little of value left in Nokia.  It's unviable as-is.  And moreso because M$ already had the control it needed without the burden of ownership.Sep 03 13:47
oiaohmNokia had huge investment from the profits from symbian phone sales.Sep 03 13:47
oiaohmiophk: I know why.Sep 03 13:48
oiaohmNokia was to the point of colapse.  If a Linux company aquired ot Nokia patents would have lost there teeth.Sep 03 13:48
oiaohmThe common patents Microsoft uses against Android end in the next 2  years.Sep 03 13:48
iophkSo will M$ now sell off the patents to proxies?Sep 03 13:49
oiaohmiophk: this is the problem life springs to microsoft are about to dry up.Sep 03 13:49
iophkI thought Nokia had already lost the key patents.Sep 03 13:49
oiaohmThe major reason why Windows Mobile phone on MS blance sheet is not making a lose is income from android devices.Sep 03 13:49
iophkM$ income from Android is big but not enough to support such a bloated beast.Sep 03 13:49
oiaohmiophk: call it desperation.Sep 03 13:49
MinceRnokia could stay such a proxySep 03 13:49
oiaohmMinceR: not independant.Sep 03 13:50
MinceRneither is CPTNSep 03 13:50
oiaohmMinceR: Nokia no longer had the funds.Sep 03 13:50
MinceRm$ kept feeding SCO for ages, they could do the same to mokiaSep 03 13:50
iophkNokia sold its HQ to make ends meet recently.Sep 03 13:50
oiaohmiophk: Android patent income to Microsoft is greater than Windows phone income to MicrosoftSep 03 13:51
iophkThat also indicates that Elop had no intention of keeping the company in Finland or maybe even shutting it down.Sep 03 13:51
oiaohmiophk: exactly.  Nokia has lost most of there assets.Sep 03 13:51
oiaohmiophk: also lost all there investments.Sep 03 13:51
oiaohmMinceR:  The ammount of money nokia needs is in the billions.Sep 03 13:52
iophkoiaohm: yes, Android income is big for them.  it would be a heavy blow if Android companies were to stop paying.Sep 03 13:52
iophkSo far it's been a divide and conquerSep 03 13:52
MinceRoiaohm: are they in debt?Sep 03 13:52
oiaohmiophk: in a few years Android companies can stop paying if MS cannot aquire new patents they cannot avoid.Sep 03 13:52
oiaohmMinceR: Nokia yes is in debtSep 03 13:52
MinceRicSep 03 13:52
oiaohmMinceR: Nokia was heading in the direction of recievership.Sep 03 13:53
MinceRthen their patents will be probably handed to CPTN and nokia closed downSep 03 13:53
oiaohmMinceR: Exactly who is going todo a patent deal with a company sinking under it own weight.Sep 03 13:53
oiaohmMinceR: wise person waits for them to die.Sep 03 13:53
oiaohmCPTN has low operating costs so is not going to fail into debt.Sep 03 13:54
XFaCE[08:47:40 AM]<iophk> I was surprised by the purchase because there is so little of value left in Nokia.  It's unviable as-is.  And moreso because M$ already had the control it needed without the burden of ownership.Sep 03 13:54
XFaCEIt's exactly what I saidSep 03 13:54
XFaCEAttention, news converageSep 03 13:55
XFaCEdistractionSep 03 13:55
XFaCEiophk: Right now, Microsoft is in "throw shit to distract you" modeSep 03 13:55
MinceR:>Sep 03 13:55
oiaohmMicrosoft would not remain in control of Nokia if it went to recievership.Sep 03 13:55
iophkso the impending bankruptcy forced their handSep 03 13:56
oiaohmiophk: remember blackberry is in the same boat.Sep 03 13:56
iophkbut I though there were no real patents left at Nokia.Sep 03 13:56
oiaohmit costs a fortune to make phones.Sep 03 13:56
oiaohmYou need a few billion a year just in R&D for items you will never sell with phones.Sep 03 13:57
oiaohmThis is my problem aquiring Nokia is going to push MS operating costs up a lot.Sep 03 13:57
MinceRi don't mind thatSep 03 13:57
iophkand as mentioned, they can hide the costs somewhat by burying them in other divisions.Sep 03 13:58
oiaohmiophk: problem what divisions are growing.Sep 03 13:58
iophknone,Sep 03 13:58
oiaohmiophk: for one Australian government has reduced there MS Windows aquirement this year.Sep 03 13:59
iophkbut putting them together makes it harder for the press (what's left of it) to single out any specific units.Sep 03 13:59
oiaohmwhy every contract over $80 000 AUD for the Australian government has to be reviewed if open source solutions will be cheaper or better.Sep 03 13:59
oiaohmThis started this year.Sep 03 13:59
iophkexpect to see a lot of $79 999 AUD contracts :PSep 03 14:01
oiaohmiophk: redhat and drupal is doing very well this year in Australia.Sep 03 14:01
iophkExcellent.   Red Hat is quite a success story and has been for a while.Sep 03 14:01
oiaohmiophk: its not simple todo that inside Australian government rules.Sep 03 14:01
oiaohmiophk: aquirements have to be whole department.Sep 03 14:02
oiaohmYou cannot break aquirements up into small chunks.Sep 03 14:02
XFaCEiophk: As I speak, CBC news reporting how MS sharesholder are happy and how they can take on Apple now etc. etc. blah blahSep 03 14:02
XFaCEexactly what I expectedSep 03 14:02
XFaCEvacuous nothing news storiesSep 03 14:02
oiaohmiophk: so fairly much anything under 60 000 is like stables.Sep 03 14:02
oiaohmiophk:  so is only 20 000 too high to completley block closed source.Sep 03 14:03
oiaohmiophk: mind you it causing a interesting problem.  Australian schools have been teaching MS only.   So now they need open source skilled people hello problem.Sep 03 14:05
iophkprobably a lot of M$ boosters have dug in and made it hard to bring in competent IT staff or trainersSep 03 14:06
iophk20+ years ago, schools used to insist on teaching multiple vendor's products so that the could teach the princples involved.Sep 03 14:07
XFaCEiophk: 03 14:07 | Microsoft buys Nokia smartphones, services in $7.6B deal - Business - CBC News  [ ]Sep 03 14:07
iophkQubecalc + Quattro etcSep 03 14:07
XFaCE 03 14:07 | BBC News - Microsoft to buy Nokia's mobile phone unit  [ ]Sep 03 14:07
XFaCEiophk: The vacous news comes in drovesSep 03 14:08
iophkYes, noise.Sep 03 14:08
oiaohmXFaCE: remember skype they had to end up writing that off.Sep 03 14:08
XFaCEthe Reuters article is the only that mentions the "mole" partSep 03 14:08
iophkThe M$ bribery / kickback news seems to have stopped.Sep 03 14:08
XFaCEoiaohm: But damn, it gave them attention in the pressSep 03 14:08
XFaCEoiaohm: Microsoft: Look at me! Look at me!Sep 03 14:08
oiaohmXFaCE: I am not worried abotu press.Sep 03 14:08
XFaCEI amSep 03 14:08
oiaohmXFaCE: all the press in the world will not change the finanical mess.Sep 03 14:09
XFaCEoiaohm: The problem is while people in general seem to be tending toward greater skepticism towards gov't, business news seems to be still likely to be accepted at face valueSep 03 14:09
XFaCEfor example, this comment on the BBC website:Sep 03 14:10
iophkXFaCE: M$ always uses 'Look at me! Look at me!' whenever a competitor does something valuable.Sep 03 14:10
XFaCE"It's amazing really how poor Nokia have been. They had a total monopoly over the market back in the day and just sat on it, didn't innovate / modernise.Sep 03 14:10
XFaCEA classic case of getting way too comfortable with ones dominance and taking their eye of the ball..."Sep 03 14:10
iophkIt often comes in the form of an announcement of vaporware.  Sep 03 14:10
XFaCESaying it's cause Nokia became lazy or whatever wasn't the problemSep 03 14:11
oiaohmXFaCE: you think about it all this look at me.Sep 03 14:11
iophkThe alpha product hits the shelves some 2- 3 years later, but people hold off on buying the competitor.Sep 03 14:11
oiaohmXFaCE: what is going to happen if no Income boost comes.Sep 03 14:11
iophkThey choose instead to wait for the M$ product so they can 'compare' it. Sep 03 14:11
XFaCEoiaohm: in regards to MS?Sep 03 14:11
oiaohmXFaCE: Hype = Investors expecting more.  Failure of Hype=Punished in share price.Sep 03 14:12
oiaohmDropped share price equals lower company value.Sep 03 14:12
XFaCEoiaohm: which will happen hereSep 03 14:12
XFaCEand the way Microsoft is going, I completely expect a Nortel situationSep 03 14:12
oiaohmWhat results in Microsoft having to pay back debts.Sep 03 14:12
XFaCEoiaohm: I think the gov't will bail out MicrosoftSep 03 14:12
oiaohmBasically its a cascading bomb.Sep 03 14:12
XFaCEMicrosoft will plead that they are "necessary" for infrastructure and the US economy [insert patriotism here]Sep 03 14:13
oiaohmXFaCE: and exactly what is the result of USA government bailing them out.Sep 03 14:13
XFaCEoiaohm: The same as the banksSep 03 14:13
XFaCEMicrosoft does exactly the same as they always haveSep 03 14:13
oiaohmInstant blacklist to particular countries world wide.Sep 03 14:13
XFaCEMaybe like the auto companies, they'll change a littleSep 03 14:14
XFaCEwell, not all the US auto companiesSep 03 14:14
XFaCEGM in particularSep 03 14:14
oiaohmXFaCE: auto companies don't get black listed because aquired by governement.Sep 03 14:14
XFaCEthe other ones actually did adapt and change for the betterSep 03 14:14
iophkI forget which, Volvo or Saab, was on the verge of making a hybrid when they got bought out and shutdown.Sep 03 14:14
oiaohmMS is not in a location to be bailed out by governement.Sep 03 14:14
XFaCEiophk: That would be Saab, Volvo is doing fineSep 03 14:15
XFaCEoiaohm: Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you alluding to the NSA issue here?Sep 03 14:15
oiaohmXFaCE: the NSA issue has cost MS some contracts already.Sep 03 14:15
XFaCEThat if Microsoft was "acquired" in a bailout by the US gov't, it would add further distrust?Sep 03 14:16
oiaohmXFaCE: if Microsoft was major owned by governement it will cost them more.Sep 03 14:16
oiaohmXFaCE: exactly.Sep 03 14:16
XFaCEgood pointSep 03 14:16
iophkThe government does not take charge even if they paid for ownership.Sep 03 14:16
oiaohmYou don't get out of a hole diging yourself in deeper.Sep 03 14:16
XFaCEI hadn't adjusted my outlook with the recent NSA newsSep 03 14:16
iophkEssentially it is a blank check to continue mismanagement at the taxpayer's expense-.Sep 03 14:16
XFaCEiophk: especially with the banksSep 03 14:17
XFaCEoiaohm: iophk does have a pointSep 03 14:17
oiaohmiophk: each case with auto and banks they did apoint people to boards.Sep 03 14:17
iophkYes with the banks, they paid for them, they should own them. Sep 03 14:17
iophkAppointing to the board is weak.Sep 03 14:17
iophkThey paid the debts, they should assume ownership.  If I pay back taxes on debts on a property, I am the new owner.Sep 03 14:18
oiaohmiophk: Appointing to board when you only need to embed back doors and make sure your back doors don't get removed is powerful enough.Sep 03 14:18
iophkIt should work like that.  Sep 03 14:18
XFaCEwhen the executive ignore the boardSep 03 14:18
iophkoiaohm: good point, much of this is about back doors.Sep 03 14:18
XFaCEwhich in the case of the banks, don't workSep 03 14:18
XFaCEbecause they have a bribing relationship with the gov'tSep 03 14:19
oiaohmiophk: its about trust more than anything else.   To operate Microsoft needs trust.Sep 03 14:19
iophklolSep 03 14:19
oiaohmiophk: banks can be hated and still operate.Sep 03 14:19
oiaohmiophk: yes I know its lol that Microsoft is trusted.Sep 03 14:19
iophknoone in IT has trusted M$ since the 1980's, if even thenSep 03 14:19
oiaohmiophk: for some reason many governments around the world trust MS to provide a secure OS.Sep 03 14:19
iophkEven in business they have screwed over every single partner they have worked with. Sep 03 14:19
iophkMokia is a recent case in point.Sep 03 14:20
iophkSecure as in job security.  not as in system security.Sep 03 14:20
oiaohmiophk: MS was behind the secuirty policy for OS's being weakened.Sep 03 14:20
iophkMany choose to promote M$ because they admire the bully Gates.Sep 03 14:21
iophkIt's a vote for their idol.Sep 03 14:21
iophkThe press has also been helping to whitewash his image.Sep 03 14:21
oiaohmTo be truthful Linux has had a boat anker named X11Sep 03 14:21
iophkand some kind of mess with Mer / WaylandSep 03 14:22
oiaohmsecurely tired to the bottom by video card makers.Sep 03 14:22
oiaohmiophk: really Mer and Wayland is not a bad  mess.Sep 03 14:22
iophkDidn't OpenBSD make some kind of improvements to X11 with xenocara?Sep 03 14:22
oiaohmNo X11 server is secure.Sep 03 14:22
oiaohmIt has a stack of stupidity problems.Sep 03 14:23
iophkLegacy problems that can't be avoided.Sep 03 14:23
oiaohmNot exactly if you avoid them you are no longer X11 compadible properly.Sep 03 14:23
oiaohmLike 1 all input even password boxes under X11 can be seen by all programs.Sep 03 14:24
iophkyes, I recall seeing a run down some years ago of the eavesdropping problems.Sep 03 14:24
oiaohmRemember governements want secure eavesdropping resistant OS's on desktops and else where.Sep 03 14:25
oiaohmBoth Mir and Wayland by design could offer eavesdropping resistant OS.Sep 03 14:25
oiaohmBasically Mir and Wayland are not absolute crap.Sep 03 14:25
MinceRx could too, if one is willing to accept such breaks from compatibility for securitySep 03 14:26
iophkCan Mir or Wayland do remote apps?Sep 03 14:26
oiaohmMinceR:  the levels of breaks you are talking about you would fairly much end up with Wayland.Sep 03 14:26
iophkThat has been useful time and again.Sep 03 14:26
MinceRthough for secure remote apps i'm more partial to web interfacesSep 03 14:26
iophkSSL also has problems.Sep 03 14:27
oiaohmiophk: Wayland is under way to have accelerated graphic support for compressing screen and sending it.Sep 03 14:27
oiaohmiophk: so full 3d remote.Sep 03 14:27
MinceRthere you can even specify that a webapp isn't allowed to open more top-level windowsSep 03 14:27
MinceRwhile another could be allowed to do soSep 03 14:27
iophkI don't use 3D but I guess that is a good thing anyway.Sep 03 14:27
oiaohmiophk: yes stuff X11 could only do with the hack virtualgl and did badly.Sep 03 14:27
oiaohmiophk: 3d remote you have to turn 2d on server.Sep 03 14:28
oiaohmiophk: or the traffic is too large.Sep 03 14:28
oiaohmiophk: you are missing something big.Sep 03 14:29
oiaohmIf you servers can do 3d rendering on server send 2d image over the wire.   What size clients do you need.Sep 03 14:29
oiaohmThis is the return of the Mainframe.Sep 03 14:30
oiaohm1 or 2 big ass systems shared with everyone in the office.Sep 03 14:30
oiaohmAnd everything else in the office being crappy.Sep 03 14:31
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MinceRmost users can't be trusted with managing a workstation anywaySep 03 14:35
oiaohmExactly there are reasons for the mainframe age to return.Sep 03 14:36
oiaohmYes its funny we have gone around in a huge circile.Sep 03 14:37
MinceR:)Sep 03 14:39
MinceRwe've gone from "everyone has a terminal because that's all we can afford" to "everyone has a terminal because that's all we can manage", though :>Sep 03 14:44
iophkLTSP is taking off in schoolsSep 03 14:45
oiaohmIts also all we can afford.Sep 03 14:45
oiaohmiophk: LTSP currently cannot do 3d applications well.Sep 03 14:45
iophkUseful in Canada even has special hardware Sep 03 14:45
oiaohmThe wayland fix ups also will bring proper multi seat.Sep 03 14:46
oiaohmie a 6 headed video card will be able to take 6 independant users.Sep 03 14:46
iophkMultiseat rocks.  Sep 03 14:46
oiaohmProperly.Sep 03 14:46
MinceRmultiple rocking seats? :>Sep 03 14:46
iophkMultiseat on X11 is probably an artifact of its complexity.Sep 03 14:47
iophkHaving it done on purpose (and presumably correctly) would be an improvement.Sep 03 14:47
oiaohmiophk: Multiseat on X11 is a disaster due to Userspace drivers, Dri1,dri2 and dri3 being design wrong.Sep 03 14:47
iophkyou also have to guess at mice and keyboards, using trial and error to find the right onesSep 03 14:48
oiaohmAll the drivers presume only 1 program will be incontrol the the graphical output settings of 1 video card.Sep 03 14:48
iophkdoes HDMI simplify that?Sep 03 14:48
oiaohmiophk: How many usb host controllers do some modern day motherboards have.Sep 03 14:48
iophk6 - 8 AFAIKSep 03 14:49
oiaohmiophk: ie like 8 independant pairs.Sep 03 14:49
oiaohmSo 2 usb ports per user.Sep 03 14:49
oiaohmAdd a few hubs and you are rocking.Sep 03 14:49
oiaohmHDMI does not help.Sep 03 14:49
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oiaohmiophk: setting output resultion on a video card.  Was not per port.Sep 03 14:50
oiaohmunder the old drivers.Sep 03 14:50
oiaohmIt was per card and the setting set all ports at onceSep 03 14:50
oiaohmHorrible stupid and nasty.Sep 03 14:50
oiaohmThen to use gpu acceleration you had to have full control of the video card.Sep 03 14:51
oiaohmThis is also changing.Sep 03 14:51
oiaohmBasically the internals of the Linux graphic stack is having a 20 year over due overhaul.Sep 03 14:51
oiaohmHeck 30 years over due overhaul.  Lot of the problems are pre Linux.Sep 03 14:52
iophkI hope that is being coordinated not just across distros but across OS, like BSD and IllumosSep 03 14:52
oiaohmBSD has required a jackhammer.Sep 03 14:52
oiaohmThere are lots of things beening killed off in the clean up that the BSD guys did not want to put the work in.Sep 03 14:53
oiaohmFedora is going todo a release with no userspace X11 drivers.Sep 03 14:53
oiaohmUserspace X11 drivers require the raw map of memory exposed to userspace.Sep 03 14:53
oiaohmOr in otherwords what would you like to hack today.Sep 03 14:53
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oiaohmiophk: the big problem is the minor OS's don't have the resourses to rebuild the graphic stack as required.Sep 03 15:02
oiaohmiophk: so bsd and illumos will lag behind Linux and it cannot be helped.Sep 03 15:03
iophkIt cannot be helped but hopefully no unnecessary hinders will be added.Sep 03 15:03
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MinceRthey've spent the last decade lagging behind Linux :>Sep 03 15:05
iophkIn some areas.Sep 03 15:05
iophkLinux is turning into a juggernautSep 03 15:05
iophkit's already unstoppable.  Sep 03 15:05
iophkIt's just a matter of how much larger its userbase will get and how fast.Sep 03 15:06
oiaohmLinux is not unstoppable.Sep 03 15:06
oiaohmLinux has been stopped by driver issues from taking particular markets.Sep 03 15:06
iophkM$ owns the driver makers but I got the impression that some were breaking loose.Sep 03 15:07
oiaohmAndroid and chrome os are working like icebreakers.Sep 03 15:08
MinceRthey're both Linux-based OSesSep 03 15:09
oiaohmMinceR: exactly but they are Linux based OS's companies are not shipping on server based hardware only.Sep 03 15:09
oiaohmLinux has had a road block of OEM recultence and tech design errors in it path.Sep 03 15:10
oiaohmThis is why saying Linux is unstoppable is not exactly true.Sep 03 15:10
iophkMaybe not yet, but I think that Android has changed that already.Sep 03 15:11
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oiaohmLinux is stoppable mostly by being dumb enough at times to tie its shoes teother than attempt to run Sep 03 15:11
oiaohmThen wonder why it falls on face.Sep 03 15:11
oiaohmClassic examples are X11 and the long list of sound servers.Sep 03 15:11
iophkAbout the sound servers, aren't the Android devices converging on one?Sep 03 15:12
oiaohmiophk: no in android is still an arument between audiofinger and pulseaudioSep 03 15:12
oiaohmby reality there should not be a audio server.Sep 03 15:13
oiaohmHardware access management is a kernel issue.Sep 03 15:13
oiaohmMine you with audio server hell is only like tieing one hand behind back.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmYou can still fight with audio server issues.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmGraphical server issues you are screwed.Sep 03 15:14
oiaohmiophk: also note audioflinger is not found on general Linux desktops.Sep 03 15:16
oiaohmAndroid is moving down the path of using KMS and DRI systems like normal Linux desktops.Sep 03 15:17
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iophkrevisionism : 03 16:02 | Why Nokia plus Microsoft won't equal Apple: It's much more complicated than that | ZDNet  [ ]Sep 03 16:02
MinceRyet they're pretty much equalSep 03 16:05
MinceRnokia=0Sep 03 16:06
MinceRmicrosoft=appleSep 03 16:06
MinceR0+microsoft=appleSep 03 16:06
iophkhe's also engaged in revisionismSep 03 16:07
iophkNokia didn't start to fall until Elop's memoSep 03 16:07
iophkTheir linux phone was even getting better reviews than the iPhone.Sep 03 16:08
iophkThat's probably one of the reasons Elop was called in to destroy NokiaSep 03 16:08
MinceRit isn't difficult to make a better phone than the hypePhoneSep 03 16:09
MinceRand a competent reviewer would notice itSep 03 16:09
MinceR(not the ones who are an extremely inefficient implementation of the ('apple' ? 'good' : 'crap') expression, like the hacks at 03 16:10
iophkElop made the Linux phone hard to get, but people would even travel a good distance  to get it.Sep 03 16:10
MinceRonly the GNU/Linux phoneSep 03 16:11
MinceRnon-GNU Linux phones are ubiquitousSep 03 16:11
iophkyesSep 03 16:11
iophkI'd go for a 'real' Gnu/Linux phoneSep 03 16:11
MinceRso would i, so long as it had capable, up-to-date hardware and no lockdownSep 03 16:11
iophkthat got set back 2 -4 years by ElopSep 03 16:11
MinceR(Aegis is unacceptable to me)Sep 03 16:12
MinceR(lack of HSPA+ is also unacceptable to me)Sep 03 16:12
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__martin__so proud to know the OP of this mail in person 03 16:56 | LKML: "Jan 'JaSan' Sarenik": Re: Linux v2.6.9 and GPL BuyoutSep 03 16:57
__martin__nice historic window into SCO bullySep 03 16:57
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MinceR 03 17:10 | Dear MR NOKIA! | Musta tuntuu  [ ]Sep 03 17:10
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sebsebseb Sep 03 18:51
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MinceR 03 19:51
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Sosumiprobably already knownSep 03 22:53
Sosumi 03 22:53 | From 9/11 To PRISMgate - How The Carlyle Group LBO'd The World's Secrets | Zero Hedge  [ ]Sep 03 22:53
Sosumialso lol at M$ buying nokia, lol, I used to own a couple comunicators and a couple N series feature phonesSep 03 22:55
*MinceR owns a 6101 and an n97 (both are crap)Sep 03 22:55
sebsebsebSosumi: I got given a  Nokia 770 tablet to me yesterday for freeSep 03 22:56
sebsebseband some other stuff toSep 03 22:56
Sosumion my opinion it'd have been a lot better for Nokia to keep using sybianSep 03 22:57
sebsebsebSosumi: this is a old tablet running MeaeoSep 03 22:57
sebsebsebwhat was there before MegooSep 03 22:57
sebsebsebSosumi: I think I can see why the guy decided to give it away for free Sep 03 22:58
sebsebsebdoesn't seem that great reallySep 03 22:58
sebsebseb,but I guess back in 2005/6 it was quite goodSep 03 22:58
MinceRyes, even symbian is better than winblows phonySep 03 22:58
SosumiI don't know that much about megooSep 03 22:58
sebsebsebMeamo is their LInux distro bsaed on DebianSep 03 22:58
sebsebsebthen they went to Meego and Meamo diedSep 03 22:58
sebsebsebsee wikipedia or somethignSep 03 22:59
MinceRMeeGo was a successor to MaemoSep 03 22:59
sebsebsebyepSep 03 22:59
MinceRpartly derived from itSep 03 22:59
Sosumibut nokia did have some some internet tablets, that could do exactly that, browse the webSep 03 22:59
Sosumibefore the hypePADSep 03 22:59
Sosumibut outside of the stores, I've never seen them much in the hands of pplSep 03 23:00
sebsebsebSosumi: right bingo and that's what I haveSep 03 23:03
sebsebseba   Internet tabletSep 03 23:03
sebsebseb,but that can also be  used for a sat nav or wahteverSep 03 23:03
sebsebsebSosumi: seems the guy giving me this stuffSep 03 23:04
sebsebsebwas using APple something or the other toSep 03 23:04
sebsebsebgoing by the email client extension :dSep 03 23:04
sebsebseb,but he gave me that, a  Mini PCSep 03 23:05
SosumicrAppleSep 03 23:05
SosumilolSep 03 23:05
sebsebseba Dbox2 ever hear of one of those?Sep 03 23:05
sebsebsebnearly didn't take the Dbox2, but  was able to take that back in  a taxi so :dSep 03 23:05
sebsebsebsome sort of mouse as wellSep 03 23:05
sebsebseb,but not just some standard mouseSep 03 23:05
sebsebsebthe Mini PC  got demand :dSep 03 23:05
sebsebseb,but I have it so :dSep 03 23:06
sebsebsebneed to put a hard disk in it or whatever, but then can use it for stuff etcSep 03 23:06
sebsebsebSosumi: Hypepad yeahSep 03 23:06
sebsebsebwell good luck for our installfest next year :dSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebyeah I m going to help organise one :)Sep 03 23:07
sebsebseban Apple instalfest though putting Apple stuff onto peoples computers oh yeah :dSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebSosumi: Itunes and uhmmSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebother Apple stuffSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebinstalling into Windwos isntallsSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebfor funSep 03 23:07
sebsebseb!Sep 03 23:07
SosumilolSep 03 23:07
sebsebsebput in some p irated Micrsooft Office whilst at it to maybe :dSep 03 23:07
sebsebseboh and if they got it for Mac even better the Microsoft version for MacSep 03 23:08
Sosumiinstall texworks insteadSep 03 23:08
sebsebseband if they got alternative browsers installed into WindowsSep 03 23:08
sebsebsebwe will remove themSep 03 23:08
sebsebseband tell them to use Internet Explorer for fun!Sep 03 23:08
SosumilolSep 03 23:08
MinceRthere's nothing fun about using IESep 03 23:08
MinceRdamn thing takes ages "connecting" just to open a new tabSep 03 23:09
sebsebsebMinceR: no no IE is awesome, hence what I am saying above Sep 03 23:09
MinceRand blocks popups coming from inactive tabsSep 03 23:09
sebsebsebyou silly Microsoft hater you MinceR :dSep 03 23:09
Sosumiwell actually, IE is better than safariSep 03 23:09
MinceRit's the same unreliable, inexplicable pile of shit as the rest of m$ crapSep 03 23:09
MinceRwell, that must be a close matchSep 03 23:09
sebsebsebheh hehSep 03 23:09
sebsebsebyeah Safari is proprirtary toSep 03 23:10
sebsebseband that's Apple so hmmSep 03 23:10
sebsebsebhowever has Webkit in itSep 03 23:10
Sosumisafari tends to crash even when playing html5 videosSep 03 23:10
MinceRone of the least stable browser engines i'm aware ofSep 03 23:10
sebsebsebanyway yeah an installfest of propritary softwareSep 03 23:10
sebsebsebbye bye anything open sourceSep 03 23:10
sebsebsebor kind of good, but propritarySep 03 23:10
sebsebsebwhy? uhmm, because we can!Sep 03 23:10
sebsebseband for a laugh!Sep 03 23:10
SosumiI can shoot myself on the footSep 03 23:11
Sosumibecause I canSep 03 23:11
Sosumi:PSep 03 23:11
sebsebsebSosumi: yes you canSep 03 23:11
sebsebsebnow where's that gun?Sep 03 23:11
*sebsebseb waits for Sosumi to shoot himself in the footSep 03 23:11
Sosumibut lol, don't go troll poor folks who know nothing about computersSep 03 23:11
sebsebsebBANG!Sep 03 23:11
sebsebsebSosumi: no I am to nice to do that really :)Sep 03 23:11
sebsebsebinstead we are going to organise an installfestSep 03 23:12
sebsebsebwith  a few Linux distros :)Sep 03 23:12
sebsebseband aim it at people with old XP installs and that kind of thing :)Sep 03 23:12
sebsebseband have it next year before XP goes end of ilfe, well unless  they extend again, since the WIndows 8 failureSep 03 23:12
sebsebsebapparnatly it's now over taken Vista installs thoughSep 03 23:12
sebsebsebuh I mean the Windows 8 success maybe above :d depending on how you look at it :dSep 03 23:12
sebsebsebSosumi: MinceR oh, but that means UBuntu at this install fest hmmSep 03 23:13
sebsebsebprobablySep 03 23:13
MinceRCrunchBang and even Debian are betterSep 03 23:13
sebsebsebor Mint?Sep 03 23:14
sebsebsebI guess could have Ubuntu, but recommend against installing ti heh hehSep 03 23:14
sebsebsebat least show itSep 03 23:14
sebsebsebhmmSep 03 23:14
sebsebsebone guy wants Open SuseSep 03 23:14
sebsebsebI want Magiea :)Sep 03 23:14
sebsebseb,but people genrally think Ubuntu  for install fests, and maybe even Mint for these daysSep 03 23:14
Sosumiubuntu, after Shuttlewom's love affair with M$, not even onceSep 03 23:14
sebsebsebI think with Ubuntu tehr'se no point really, unless they like Unity nowSep 03 23:15
Sosumilet canonical sinkSep 03 23:15
MinceR 03 23:15 | THE LAPINE  [ ]Sep 03 23:15
sebsebsebSosumi: yeah, but it's kind of hmm to not have Ubuntu at an install festSep 03 23:15
sebsebsebaimed at really non technical people etcSep 03 23:15
Sosumifor that there's mint with cynamonSep 03 23:16
Sosumireally good lookingSep 03 23:16
sebsebsebMint isn't really needed now either htoughSep 03 23:16
sebsebsebwell soon in the case of Mageia :dSep 03 23:16
sebsebsebMageia 4 has Mate and Cinnamon in  Cauldron already :)Sep 03 23:16
sebsebsebthe development rolling releaseSep 03 23:16
Sosumiwell that's niceSep 03 23:16
sebsebsebso what's the point with MInt really then,  unless going to have codecs by defaultSep 03 23:16
sebsebseb,but  it's easy enough to install codecs into most distorsSep 03 23:16
SosumiyeahSep 03 23:17
sebsebseband sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restriced-extras in the case of UbuntuSep 03 23:17
sebsebseband so yeah what is the point really of Mint?  if  Cinnamon and Mate can be used in something else anyway?Sep 03 23:17
sebsebsebmy idea is to have a few trying/demostraiton pc's of a few distros and desktop envrionemtns and sy stuffSep 03 23:17
sebsebseband  then to give out LIve USB's of stuff and CD's and what notSep 03 23:18
sebsebseband install stuff if people want itSep 03 23:18
sebsebsebMinceR: Sosumi here's the thing though, this old guy thinks we should do single bootsSep 03 23:18
sebsebsebonlySep 03 23:18
sebsebsebor unoffically maybe a dual boot toSep 03 23:18
sebsebsebit's just if WIndows goes wrong....Sep 03 23:18
MinceRwhich old guy?Sep 03 23:18
sebsebseboh someone from the LUGSep 03 23:18
MinceRwell, dual-booting winblows from the same drive can break the dual-booting arrangementSep 03 23:18
sebsebsebyes exactly Sep 03 23:18
sebsebsebpossbilySep 03 23:19
MinceRm$ has innovated in the field of breaking other OSes on the same machineSep 03 23:19
sebsebsebit seems we may go for single bootSep 03 23:19
MinceRit's safer to dual-boot via separate system disksSep 03 23:19
sebsebseb,but then can get the, oh, but I still want Windows...Sep 03 23:19
sebsebsebsince I got this or that programSep 03 23:19
MinceRor install winblows on a VMSep 03 23:19
sebsebsebso if removing WIndows competly hmmSep 03 23:19
MinceRthat way it doesn't get to fuck up the hardwareSep 03 23:19
sebsebsebalso if they have Windows on the computer stillSep 03 23:19
sebsebsebthey might just end up botting that up still mainlySep 03 23:20
sebsebsebwhich kind of defates the point of having LInux distro installedSep 03 23:20
MinceRindeedSep 03 23:21
sebsebsebsometimes having Windows around can be useful to test hardware though hmmSep 03 23:21
sebsebsebMinceR: I guess single boots is a good idea thenSep 03 23:21
sebsebseb,but with a few options of distro :)Sep 03 23:21
sebsebsebshow them de's etcSep 03 23:22
sebsebsebsay something about differences, let them choose something :)Sep 03 23:22
sebsebsebpeople will go on look probably non technicalSep 03 23:22
MinceRi guess soSep 03 23:22
sebsebsebthey might like say the look of Unity, but not GNOME ShellSep 03 23:22
Sosumijust don't talk too much about gamesSep 03 23:22
MinceRxonotic ftwSep 03 23:22
Sosuminor about the outdated flash pluginSep 03 23:22
sebsebsebor like the look of KDE since more Windows like, but not  XFCE or LXDE so mcuh or whateverSep 03 23:22
sebsebsebSosumi: nor about how Adobe might drop Flash supp9rt for LInux in a few years or wahtever I read beforeSep 03 23:23
SosumiyeapSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebwell it will be marketd at old XP install epopleSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebemailsSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebtypingSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebweb browsingSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebphoto editingSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebbasicsSep 03 23:23
SosumiyeahSep 03 23:23
Sosumibut derp facebook peoplzSep 03 23:23
sebsebsebwe plan to do this in March thoughSep 03 23:24
sebsebsebApril 8th being the end of support of XP unless they extend againSep 03 23:24
sebsebsebso in that case a good time to remove XP from old computers I guess :)Sep 03 23:24
sebsebsebassuming it really does go end of life etcSep 03 23:24
Sosumiwill probably notice when their derpbook fails to launch or stuttersSep 03 23:24
sebsebsebpeople want to use their computer online usauly :)Sep 03 23:24
sebsebsebSosumi: yeah Facebook type peopleSep 03 23:24
sebsebsebpeople who may end up using their smart phone for most of their computer useageSep 03 23:24
sebsebseb,because their Windows install is to slow now etcSep 03 23:24
Sosumiyeah, the kind of ppl who install those nasty bars for their browserSep 03 23:25
sebsebsebyep bingoSep 03 23:25
sebsebsebthose who may get some browser bar installed and  well just carry on as normalSep 03 23:25
sebsebseband not think, oh what's that?Sep 03 23:25
sebsebsebshould mabye try and remove thatSep 03 23:25
sebsebsebSosumi: I guess can do newer machines though as wellSep 03 23:26
sebsebseb,but  again might want to do just the single boot then to :dSep 03 23:26
sebsebsebalso with Windows 8, who wants to mess around with UEFI secure boot?Sep 03 23:26
sebsebseb,but I guess can remove it from some machine :dSep 03 23:26
SosumiI don't, lolSep 03 23:26
sebsebsebI think marketing is importatnSep 03 23:27
sebsebseband showing/demenstrating stuffSep 03 23:27
Sosumibut if it's a bios machine, then you can keep dual bootSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebso get the right kind of people,  and so those people also get an idea what kind of thing they will be getting them selves into etcSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebif it's put on their computerSep 03 23:27
Sosumiif the user wants to keep it for gamingSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebI think with a Windows 8 machine can ignore secure boot usauly if  well it's WINdows 8 that needs itSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebnot the LInux distorSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebSosumi: I think the idea is  go for single boots, unoffically maybe some duals toSep 03 23:27
sebsebsebSosumi: I think got to fit things for someones useageSep 03 23:28
sebsebsebdo they really have some specific program that needs Windows?  that there is no proper alternative for, for their useage? etc etcSep 03 23:28
sebsebsebor they have some other computer they can use anyway for that?Sep 03 23:29
sebsebsebif neassareySep 03 23:29
sebsebsebSosumi: MinceR shoudn't have the Windows dislike bliding things I mean :DSep 03 23:31
MinceRbliding?Sep 03 23:31
sebsebsebblindingSep 03 23:31
sebsebsebcovering someones eyes from realitySep 03 23:32
sebsebsebin this contextSep 03 23:32
sebsebsebbasicalySep 03 23:32
Sosumiwell, M$ dislike blinding reason?Sep 03 23:32
sebsebsebsome people should still have a Windows installSep 03 23:33
sebsebseb,because the Linux distro won't fit all of hteir computer useage Sep 03 23:33
sebsebsebproperlySep 03 23:33
SosumiyeahSep 03 23:33
sebsebsebalso I think it's ok to install some programs in WineSep 03 23:33
sebsebsebif they work great :)Sep 03 23:33
Sosumithat tooSep 03 23:33
sebsebsebhowever would ideally want people using native stuffSep 03 23:34
sebsebseb,but sometimes you just get people who like outlook and things they can replace with other stuff eaislly reallySep 03 23:34
MinceRsome people should have a hump on their back, got itSep 03 23:34
MinceR:>Sep 03 23:34
sebsebsebalso it's Office 2003 running out of support not just XPSep 03 23:34
sebsebsebunless extendedSep 03 23:34
sebsebsebMinceR:  what do you mean?Sep 03 23:34
MinceRyou said it like some people should have a handicap :>Sep 03 23:35
sebsebsebMinceR: oh heh hehSep 03 23:35
sebsebsebsome people have a very speicifc programSep 03 23:35
sebsebsebthat like it or not requries WindowsSep 03 23:36
sebsebsebthat can'st just be replaced with something else, for their useage of itSep 03 23:36
sebsebsebin those cases Wine?  or a dual boot if Wine doesn't just work with it for exampleSep 03 23:36
MinceRor a winblows VMSep 03 23:36
sebsebsebor a Windows VM depending on program yesSep 03 23:36
sebsebsebthis chat ish elping meSep 03 23:37
sebsebsebI got a meeting coming up with the other organisers in personSep 03 23:37
sebsebsebto talk about stuff like thisSep 03 23:37
sebsebsebwhat I don't want to do is, be like, oh let's remove WIndows, but then they get stuck since, there is somethingSep 03 23:37
sebsebseband  Linux distro doesn't cut itSep 03 23:37
sebsebsebat all reallySep 03 23:37
sebsebseband not, because they weren't going to try some other program, but in generalSep 03 23:37
sebsebsebthere is no proper alternative for that thingSep 03 23:38
MinceR:)Sep 03 23:38
SosumiI wouldn't bother too much with that, usually the only software you can't really find a good alternative for linuxSep 03 23:41
Sosumiis CAD/CAM stuffSep 03 23:41
Sosumilike the autodesk suites and the adobe stuffSep 03 23:42
Cirrus_Minor 03 23:42
Sosumimaybe something more I'm not aware offSep 03 23:42
sebsebsebyep CAD, Photoshop etcSep 03 23:42
sebsebsebSosumi: MinceR Photoshop in many cases can be replacedSep 03 23:49
sebsebsebthey are just doing basic photo or graphics designSep 03 23:49
sebsebsebGIMP, Inksapce etc good enough :)Sep 03 23:49
MinceRindeed, usually by a photo editor that doesn't suck quite as muchSep 03 23:49
sebsebsebyep :)Sep 03 23:49
sebsebsebWine is much better than it was years ago to :DSep 03 23:50
sebsebsebaltough not used for ages saying thatSep 03 23:51
Sosumiwell I really don't knowSep 03 23:58
Sosumisince I've never found the need to use photoshop or gimpSep 03 23:58
sebsebsebyes same here reallySep 03 23:59
sebsebsebTuxpaint is about as far as I goto actasuly making anything like that :dSep 03 23:59
sebsebseband I am not jokingSep 03 23:59
sebsebseband I love Tuxpaint :)Sep 03 23:59
SosumilolSep 03 23:59
sebsebsebyou think I am jokingSep 03 23:59
sebsebseb,but I am notSep 03 23:59

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