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MinceRif the debt keeps growing forever, then it's not being run properly, imoOct 05 23:31
Sosumiwell, money for the big boys that isOct 05 23:31
JimmyCarterwont grow foreverOct 05 23:31
JimmyCarterdefinite limits to status quo of borrowing propsperity from futureOct 05 23:31
DaemonFCWell, it can.Oct 05 23:31
DaemonFCAs long as the money supply keeps growing and creditors tolerate that.Oct 05 23:32
Sosumiit'll end up blowing in everyone's faceOct 05 23:32
JimmyCarterusa currently 73% debt-to-gdp ratio says CBOOct 05 23:32
Sosumiportugal currently at 123% and rising :POct 05 23:34
DaemonFCThat's what the bankers want.Oct 05 23:34
DaemonFCThey want endless government red ink.Oct 05 23:34
SosumiyeahOct 05 23:34
JimmyCarterthe federal income is about 10% of gdpOct 05 23:34
DaemonFCEvery year, the public grows more indebted to bankers for programs that could easily be paid for by slight tax increases on the wealthy.Oct 05 23:35
JimmyCarterso debt is currently at approx 7x federal incomeOct 05 23:35
Sosumibut you do know the wealthy put their money in trustsOct 05 23:35
JimmyCarteranalogoys to someone with 100k/yr job being 700k in debtOct 05 23:35
Sosumior create non profit foundationsOct 05 23:35
JimmyCarteranalogousOct 05 23:36
DaemonFCfirst comes the debt bombOct 05 23:36
DaemonFCthen comes the public pension lootingOct 05 23:36
DaemonFCthen comes the taxation bombOct 05 23:36
Sosumiso, increasing tax on the wealthy = killing middle classOct 05 23:36
Sosumialso yes, pension funds raiding and bail insOct 05 23:37
JimmyCarteryeah just like a credit card company, lenders are happy to collect interestOct 05 23:37
DaemonFCWell, it reminds me of a credit card company that says you have a $5,000 limit.Oct 05 23:37
DaemonFCThen when you get close to that, they up it to $10,000, then $20,000.Oct 05 23:37
JimmyCarterbut lenders are anyone and everyone who buys us bondsOct 05 23:37
SosumiexactlyOct 05 23:37
DaemonFCThe only time they stop increasing your limit is when they think that your ability to make the minimum payment (which doesn't get you out of debt) will be threatened.Oct 05 23:39
DaemonFCJimmyCarter, Well, it does matter who the creditors are.Oct 05 23:39
DaemonFCObviously, you want your own citizens holding your public debt.Oct 05 23:39
DaemonFCThen it becomes a transfer of funds instead of bleeding money out to foreign citizens and governments.Oct 05 23:40
DaemonFCIf your own citizens are earning the interest, then it's likely that they're going to reinvest that interest into the domestic economy at some point, in some way.Oct 05 23:41
JimmyCarteryeahOct 05 23:48
DaemonFChttp://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/10/03/remarks-president-government-shutdownOct 05 23:48
TechrightsBot-trwww.whitehouse.gov | Remarks by the President on the Government Shutdown | The White House  [ http://ur1.ca/fud6m ]Oct 05 23:48
DaemonFCThat's why everyone should save back some cash.Oct 05 23:48
DaemonFCAt least enough to get them through a couple of months.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCSocial Security checks may not go out next month.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCBut they'd probably work something out to where people get a double check in December or something.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCBut a lot of good that does if you run out of food and can't pay the rent in November.Oct 05 23:50
JimmyCarterForeign governments and investors hold 48% of the nation's public debt. The next largest part (21%) is held by other governmental entities, like the Federal Reserve and state and local governments. Fifteen percent is held by mutual funds, private pension funds, savings bonds or individual Treasury notes. The rest (16%) is held by businesses, like banks, and insurance companies and a mish-mash of trusts, businesses and investors. Oct 05 23:50
DaemonFCSocial Security alone holds over three trillion dollars.Oct 05 23:52
DaemonFCGuess who takes it up the tailpipe first when the government defaults.Oct 05 23:52
DaemonFCHint: Not the banksters.Oct 05 23:52
DaemonFCThere's another simple explanation for why the government just doesn't tax enough to run its programs.Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCThe programs are popular, but the taxes aren't.Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCBy running deficits, it can run popular programs while keeping taxes low (for now).Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCThe entities that the government borrows from are happy to enable this because they keep getting their interest payments.Oct 05 23:54
DaemonFCThe program cuts and tax increases will take decades to pan out.Oct 05 23:54
DaemonFCand nobody who is in office right now will be there when that happens. So they have no reason to care.Oct 05 23:55
DaemonFCThe only collateral a government has in obtaining loans is the promise to raise taxes later.Oct 05 23:55
MinceRsee, the debt ceiling is not the issue :>Oct 05 23:57
DaemonFCIt is for the moment.Oct 05 23:58
DaemonFCMinceR, It's like saying that you'll have the triple baconator now so you won't starve, and don't worry about that massive heart attack.Oct 05 23:58
DaemonFCThat's thirty years from now.Oct 05 23:58
MinceR:>Oct 05 23:59
MinceRthe issue is all that spending that caused the debt to rise that highOct 05 23:59
JimmyCartera default will trigger credit rating downgrades and interest rate hikes that will crush the sputtering economyOct 05 23:59
DaemonFCYeah. It's an immediate concern.Oct 05 23:59
JimmyCarterthats one of the purported ulterior motives for all the fed's open market operations: keeping interest rates low to keep interest payments down on the us debtOct 06 00:00
DaemonFCIf they'd stop giving the military and the black budget spy programs so much money, there wouldn't be a deficit.Oct 06 00:00
MinceRindeedOct 06 00:01
JimmyCarterbut you gotta die somehowOct 06 00:02
DaemonFCGovernments don't typically "die" as such.Oct 06 00:02
DaemonFCThey can exist indefinitely.Oct 06 00:02
DaemonFCI did like Jon Stewart's proposal.Oct 06 00:05
DaemonFCRun up as much debt as we can and then fake our own deaths.Oct 06 00:05
DaemonFCThat actually is possible.Oct 06 00:05
DaemonFCA debt crisis could cause a government to disband and you can end up with a new government that claims it won't be held responsible for the former government's debt.Oct 06 00:06
DaemonFCIn places where that happens frequently, they often have trouble getting anyone to give them loans in their own currency.Oct 06 00:07
JimmyCarteri just hope twitter has a good ipo before the sky fallsOct 06 00:08
MinceRwhy?Oct 06 00:08
JimmyCarterpersonal financial interest ;)Oct 06 00:09
MinceR:)Oct 06 00:09
DaemonFCThis is kind of silly though. The Republicans are shutting down the government in protest of a law that will reduce deficits.Oct 06 00:11
DaemonFCIn the name of reducing deficits.Oct 06 00:11
JimmyCarteralso costs money to start/shutdown govOct 06 00:11
MinceRin other words, a typical republican thing to doOct 06 00:11
DaemonFCWell, for one thing, Obamacare fixed Medicare Part D.Oct 06 00:11
JimmyCarteralso a law that already voted on, already had referendum election on, etcOct 06 00:11
DaemonFC75% of its spending as enacted by Republicans was deficit spending.Oct 06 00:12
JimmyCarteri believe obama when he says he cant allow precedent of minority hijackingOct 06 00:12
JimmyCarterunfortunately the other side in this chicken contest believes jesus is a magical cartoonOct 06 00:12
DaemonFCI think there's going to be a lot of enraged voters that take it out on the Republicans in next years elections.Oct 06 00:12
MinceRi don't believe obama even when he asks a question.Oct 06 00:13
DaemonFCThey're making a lot of people very angry at them.Oct 06 00:13
DaemonFCIncluding me.Oct 06 00:13
MinceRhe told a bit too many lies recently.Oct 06 00:13
DaemonFCI could see them losing 18 House seats, or more.,Oct 06 00:13
DaemonFCThe Democrats will probably be running the House again starting January 2015.Oct 06 00:13
DaemonFCEspecially if Social Security payments are delayed because of them.Oct 06 00:14
DaemonFCerr, the Republicans I meanOct 06 00:14
MinceR:)Oct 06 00:14
JimmyCarteri hope youre rightOct 06 00:14
DaemonFCOld people don't like it when their retirement checks are threatened.Oct 06 00:14
Sosumijust let the republican party be the engine of it's own destructionOct 06 00:14
DaemonFCThey'll vote out whoever they think is responsible.Oct 06 00:14
JimmyCarterboehnor said he wouldnt let debt ceiling expire.Oct 06 00:14
MinceRif it's destroyed, will a non-republicrat party emerge as second choice?Oct 06 00:15
JimmyCarterso he may do something at last minute that spells changes for gop status quoOct 06 00:15
Sosumiand democrats split between a wall st and populist factionOct 06 00:15
JimmyCartersuch as simply allowing a vote!  where minority republicans will side with dems to reopenOct 06 00:15
DaemonFCYeah, there's probably going to be a bill that gets passed by all the Democrats and a handful of Republicans.Oct 06 00:15
JimmyCarterand then the tea party will call for boehnors headOct 06 00:15
DaemonFCThe Tea Party will get thrown under the bus.Oct 06 00:15
JimmyCarterthey want someone who will historically default on debt Oct 06 00:15
Sosumiho the pee party....Oct 06 00:16
DaemonFCI have one of the worst "Representatives" in the entire country.Oct 06 00:16
DaemonFCMarlin StutzmanOct 06 00:16
DaemonFCI didn't vote for him.Oct 06 00:16
JimmyCarterhes not on my radarOct 06 00:16
DaemonFCOf course, with the way the state Republicans drew the districts, it's not like it mattered.Oct 06 00:16
DaemonFCHe got twice as many votes as the Democrat.Oct 06 00:17
JimmyCarterboehnor, mcconnel, meadows, cruz, ryan, Oct 06 00:17
SosumiMerlin the StuntmanOct 06 00:17
JimmyCarterbachmanOct 06 00:17
JimmyCarterdifficult to compete w these for title of worst representativeOct 06 00:17
DaemonFCPaul Ryan and Michelle Bachmann are more vulnerable.Oct 06 00:17
DaemonFCBachmann won her last election with a very slim margin.Oct 06 00:17
DaemonFCShe spent some time after that trying to keep a low profile.Oct 06 00:18
DaemonFCBut she's back out there saying dumb things again, so hopefully she gets noticed.Oct 06 00:18
JimmyCarterwell go knock on doors and convince your neighbors to change mindOct 06 00:18
DaemonFCMy neighbors are not impressed with the Republicans right now.Oct 06 00:18
JimmyCarteri suck at communicating w republicansOct 06 00:18
DaemonFCand they are in their 80s and 90s mostly.Oct 06 00:18
DaemonFCObamacare reduced their Medicare costs, and now they're afraid that the law will get repealed and their costs will go back up.Oct 06 00:19
DaemonFCOf course, I think it's safe to say that the Medicare reforms were designed to do that.Oct 06 00:19
MinceRso, are they like "we're not impressed with the republicans right now but we'll be damned if we let the democrats win!"?Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCwhoaOct 06 00:20
DaemonFClightning right over my houseOct 06 00:20
MinceR:)Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCThis isn't good.Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCIf the power doesn't go out, Comcast will.Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCThey tend to go down for a day or two if the wind blows.Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCAnd of course, there are never any bill credits.Oct 06 00:20
DaemonFCAccording to the weather channel, there's going to be a thunderstorm going all night and all day tomorrow.Oct 06 00:21
MinceR:(Oct 06 00:21
DaemonFCWhenever this happens, the river rises and goes right through my back yard.Oct 06 00:21
DaemonFCIt's kind of scary.Oct 06 00:22
MinceRit can't be good living right next to a riverOct 06 00:22
DaemonFCI mean like 20-25 feet from my house.Oct 06 00:22
DaemonFCMinceR, That's one reason why the rent is cheap here.Oct 06 00:22
MinceRicOct 06 00:22
DaemonFCIt has a history of rising and flooding out some of the apartments.Oct 06 00:22
DaemonFCI'm actually pretty lucky.Oct 06 00:22
DaemonFCI live right on top of the hill.Oct 06 00:23
DaemonFCI don't think my apartment has ever been flooded out. Oct 06 00:23
DaemonFCThe one right next door to me has.Oct 06 00:23
DaemonFCIt is pouring outside.Oct 06 00:24
DaemonFCI can't even see across the street.Oct 06 00:24
MinceRluckily, my part of the (sad excuse for a) city i live in is well above the highest flood we've ever hadOct 06 00:24
MinceR(during the existence of the city, that is)Oct 06 00:24
MinceRi can't trust the nazis or the commies to protect me from the flood (or anything else, for that matter)Oct 06 00:25
DaemonFCThe river is usually only a few feet deep.Oct 06 00:25
DaemonFCYou can easily see the bottom of it.Oct 06 00:25
DaemonFCBut when it rains for several days, it gets pretty deep and turbulent.Oct 06 00:25
DaemonFCIf this keeps up, Dave will probably call and ask me to come over and help him pump out the water from their basement.Oct 06 00:26
DaemonFC:POct 06 00:26
DaemonFCTheir basement flooded the last time it rained like this, and I figured out why.Oct 06 00:26
DaemonFCThe last owners of the house had this fucking stupid idea for how to landscape.Oct 06 00:27
DaemonFCThey put three layers of landscape bricks around the house, and sloped the enclosed area towards the house.Oct 06 00:27
DaemonFCSo I went outside and dug up all of the bricks.Oct 06 00:27
MinceR:)Oct 06 00:28
DaemonFCIt took me about a day to do that and remove all of the river rocks and lay down a new layer of dirt.Oct 06 00:28
DaemonFCThey called out for some estimates and they got quoted at almost a thousand dollars.Oct 06 00:29
DaemonFCSo I ended up doing it.Oct 06 00:29
DaemonFCMy credit is shot because of some medical bills.Oct 06 00:29
DaemonFCI know what they're going through.Oct 06 00:29
DaemonFCThey've got all the same problems I do and more.Oct 06 00:29
DaemonFCThe IRS is after them too.Oct 06 00:30
DaemonFCLuckily I don't have that problem.Oct 06 00:30
DaemonFCThe IRS can do things to you that nobody else can do.Oct 06 00:30
DaemonFCIt's like owing child support only worse.Oct 06 00:30
DaemonFCThey'll put liens on all your property.Oct 06 00:30
DaemonFCYou won't even be able to sell your stuff to pay them.Oct 06 00:31
DaemonFCThey have the "honor" of being in that "sweet spot".Oct 06 00:31
DaemonFCEnough money to tax and not enough money to fight the IRS and win.Oct 06 00:31
DaemonFCThe IRS pretty much leaves rich people alone.Oct 06 00:32
DaemonFCThey have enough to hire accountants and tax lawyers and they can jam the IRS up for years and end up getting settlements for less than half of what they owe.Oct 06 00:32
DaemonFCSo they mostly go after the middle class.Oct 06 00:32
DaemonFCThere's this "tax cut logic" that's really perverse that the Republicans bring out every time they call for "tax reform".Oct 06 00:33
DaemonFCMinceR, It basically goes something like this....Oct 06 00:33
DaemonFC"We have to lower the tax rate on the rich so they won't bother trying to get out of it."Oct 06 00:33
DaemonFC"The cuts will pay for themselves!"Oct 06 00:34
DaemonFCThey never bring up the other argument. "Make them pay their taxes."Oct 06 00:34
DaemonFCIt does work, kind of. The Bush Tax Cuts did increase the amount of taxes collected from the rich. The more straightforward approach that would get them even more money is to keep the higher rates and reduce their appeal options.Oct 06 00:36
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 01:27:51 2013
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 03:43:51 2013
*Now talking on #techrightsOct 06 03:43
*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellOct 06 03:43
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 03:43
DaemonFCIf the health insurance exchange crashes one more time they're going to have to stop calling it Obamacare and start calling it Microsoft Windows.Oct 06 03:44
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 03:46
DaemonFCI tried to create an account and got a page full of gibberish.Oct 06 03:46
DaemonFCIt was just like that time I tried using Internet Explorer on a standards-compliant web page. Oct 06 03:46
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DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 03:55
DaemonFCThe panel of death?Oct 06 03:55
DaemonFCIsn't that what they replaced the Start Menu with in Windows 8? Oct 06 03:55
oiaohmFairly much.Oct 06 04:11
DaemonFCI don't like programs that take up my entire screen.Oct 06 04:17
DaemonFCThose new "metro" apps are worse than Windows 3.x's tiling window management.Oct 06 04:17
oiaohmDaemonFC: you saw the one of MS offering HTC free license for their Phone OS.Oct 06 04:17
oiaohmReally Windows 3.11 tiling windows management was multi application effective.Oct 06 04:20
JimmyCarterhttp://www.infowars.com/peter-schiff-warns-of-martial-law/Oct 06 04:25
TechrightsBot-trwww.infowars.com | » Peter Schiff Warns of Martial Law Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!  [ http://ur1.ca/fuemq ]Oct 06 04:25
gulag2013haven't seen Peter Schiff in a long timeOct 06 04:25
JimmyCarteri just emailed himOct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterPeter,Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterWhat's your take on over-fishing and the tragedy of commons?  In your infowars interview you advocate capitalism but don't mention any such possible drawbacks.  To me this sounded one-sided or over-simplified.Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterDo you blame the government for the problems with the previous health insurance system?  I worry that your disparaging of "liberalism" and "socialism" sends the wrong partisan message.Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterThanks for your remarks about the "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation the Fed is in with tapering.  That finally crystalized it for me.Oct 06 04:25
gulag2013That video is finally player. Obama supporters not know what party Obama is in? Get out of here. Oct 06 04:40
DaemonFCOne of the problems with the cost of healthcare in America is that we have two systems competing with each other.Oct 06 04:45
DaemonFCWe have a private healthcare system and two systems of insurance. Public systems that limit how many and what kind of people can get on them, and private insurance that is largely a burden on employers and on people who don't qualify for employer plans or public plans and have to pay the whole cost out of their own pocket.Oct 06 04:46
DaemonFCMost of the problems come from the private sector components.Oct 06 04:46
DaemonFCFor profit health insurance companies and hospitals that want to pay their upper management big bucks and huge bonuses.Oct 06 04:47
gulag2013I'm not that informed on the system. I know that it's the only industry that can just send you a bill without you knowing the cost before hand.Oct 06 04:47
DaemonFCIt's driving costs up because the companies and hospitals want a huge profit, and it's driving jobs out of the US because companies can set up in Canada where health insurance is not a burden on them.Oct 06 04:47
DaemonFCThat's why a lot of the vehicles we buy in the United States are actually assembled in Canada.Oct 06 04:48
DaemonFCThe auto makers have a choice between buying these expensive health insurance plans here or going to Canada where they pay a small tax that helps fund the government healthcare that all Canadians are eligible for.Oct 06 04:49
DaemonFCSo it's a small cost that they can plan for in Canada vs. a huge cost that is going up at 5-6 times the rate of overall inflation in the United States.Oct 06 04:49
DaemonFCIt probably costs them something like $8-9 here for every $1 they'd spend in Canada.Oct 06 04:50
DaemonFCSo they do business in Canada and export the vehicles to the US for sale.Oct 06 04:50
gulag2013WowOct 06 04:50
DaemonFCand the high costs and inefficiencies that were caused by the private sector spilled over and ruined the public sector health plans like Medicaid and Medicare.Oct 06 04:51
DaemonFCDoctors don't want to see Medicaid patients because they can gouge Medicare and private insurance and Medicaid only reimburses them at a low rate in comparison to their other patientsOct 06 04:52
gulag2013It sounds like a mess. They will have to come force me to pay for a system I won't use. Oct 06 04:52
DaemonFCand Medicare's problem is that it has gone on for many years where it just pays every damned bill that gets sent to it, so doctors and hospitals and drug companies conspire to send the highest bills they can send.Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCIt pays thousands of dollars for motorized scooters if they are "medically necessary".Oct 06 04:53
gulag2013YA, that sounds right. Just see who will pay it. Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCSo every old person that doesn't feel like walking anymore gets a "free" scooter.Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCand then soon after that, they *can't* walk anymoreOct 06 04:54
DaemonFCbecause they stopped doing it and lose their abilityOct 06 04:54
DaemonFCThen when they die, the scooter doesn't have to be turned in, so the family sells them and makes money off the sale.Oct 06 04:55
DaemonFCA used scooter can go for $500-800 depending on the model.Oct 06 04:55
DaemonFCIf Medicare got it back after the patient died, they could recondition it and give it to someone else.Oct 06 04:55
gulag2013Yes indeed, Sounds very wasteful. Oct 06 04:57
DaemonFCSo they're buying a new scooter at full price each time someone's doctor orders one because they have a patient that griped about walking.Oct 06 04:57
DaemonFCThe patient wouldn't want the scooter if they had to pay for even 20% of the purchase price.Oct 06 04:57
gulag2013I always wondered if a hospital gives me a bandaid, can I just come back with a box and call it even? Oct 06 04:58
DaemonFCThe way they see it, it's just one more freebie that they're entitled to, so they might as well take it.Oct 06 04:58
DaemonFCI got billed $11,000 the last time I was in the hospital.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCA few hours in the ER.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCI wasn't even admitted into the hospital.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCThey call it uncompensated care or "charity" care, and then they sue the patient.Oct 06 05:02
DaemonFCThey get their money back when they garnish your wages or take your house and sell it.Oct 06 05:02
gulag2013That is really scary. I would just try to refuse care. It's so important we learn to take better care of ourselves. Pay now or pay laterOct 06 05:03
DaemonFCMedicare wouldn't be in trouble if they let anyone of any age enroll in it.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCThey'd be just like any other insurance company with a balanced risk pool.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCThe healthy people would make the system solvent.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCFor profit insurance is the reason Medicare and Medicaid exist.Oct 06 05:04
DaemonFCThey're there to take all the old and sick people with very high medical costs, to get them off the balance sheet of the insurance companies.Oct 06 05:05
DaemonFCThe insurance companies then get to insure mostly people that aren't going to cost them much money and will pay a huge premium.Oct 06 05:05
DaemonFCThey offload all the undesirable customers onto the public.Oct 06 05:06
gulag2013I know and it's disqusting that human health is a for profit entity. Oct 06 05:06
oiaohmAustralia PBS setup shows a lot of flaws in medical health for profit ideas.Oct 06 05:07
gulag2013It is the way it is and billions of dollars on medication that doesn't heal any disease Oct 06 05:07
oiaohmgulag2013: Evergreen of patents of medications turn up a lot as well.Oct 06 05:07
oiaohmFunny enough in Australia we have a few drugs produced in the USA for the Australian population by third party producors that cannot be sold to USA cits.Oct 06 05:08
oiaohmWhy to use the PBS in Australia drug maker has to agree after particular time to allow third parties to produce the same drug.Oct 06 05:08
gulag2013Ha, ha. I think I follow you. Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmgulag2013: competition is good Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmwhen it comes to medial drug production.Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmUSA patent system is prevent drug makers competting for low cost production.Oct 06 05:09
gulag2013Well under a lot of circumstances herbal medicine is more effective than man made drugs that hurt vital organsOct 06 05:11
gulag2013That is the way it is though, long shelf life, means no self lifeOct 06 05:12
oiaohmgulag2013: unless you have the problem here where herbal medicine does not have decent quality controls.Oct 06 05:12
oiaohmBasically herbal based medical medicine really need the same quality controls.Oct 06 05:13
gulag2013Good points, but what that was tried first. It's not an option in most. Oct 06 05:13
gulag2013Nutrition, isn't discussed Oct 06 05:14
gulag2013They won'd dare recommend that stop eating meat and dairy. There is no bad cholesterol  in plants. Oct 06 05:15
oiaohmgulag2013: depends on the person.Oct 06 05:15
oiaohmdue to my dna faults I have to eat meat.Oct 06 05:15
gulag2013You can still choose what you eat,,Oct 06 05:16
gulag2013It doesn't have to be cows eating gmo grains. It can be grass fed etc..Oct 06 05:16
oiaohmI am latcose intollerent.Oct 06 05:16
gulag2013That's not a bad thing, most of the dairy isn't good for you. Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmAnd I wish that people had looked at my diet earlier then I would not have missed like 3 years of my early schooling due to illness.Oct 06 05:17
gulag2013Oh sorry you suffered that. Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmLatcose intollernet is nastly.  Subpress imunine system.Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmNo other symtoms.Oct 06 05:17
gulag2013So they forced milk on youOct 06 05:17
oiaohmBasically I would catch any cold going and not be able to rid off it.Oct 06 05:18
oiaohmgulag2013: stupid think about being allergic at times.  You like exactly what you are allergic to.Oct 06 05:19
gulag2013Yes I agree, I have reactions to sugar and caffeine. It takes all my willpower not to consume those things. Oct 06 05:19
oiaohmNo they were not forcing milk on me.  Yes it takes all my will power not to cosume the stuff.Oct 06 05:20
gulag2013Well luckily there are more dairy alternatives coming out all the time. Oct 06 05:20
oiaohmgulag2013: there is a bacteria you can add to milk to break down the lactose.Oct 06 05:21
gulag2013Almond Milk and Coconut milks are really good for you. Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmbefore you drink it.Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmbasically get milk put bacteria in leave it 2 days in fridge then its safe to drink.Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmand particular cheeses don't contain lactose.Oct 06 05:22
gulag2013There is still the puss in dairy man. It's just not normal to be drinking another animals breast milk. We are the only animal doing that. Oct 06 05:22
oiaohmSame kind of reason.  Ie the yeast type consumed it.Oct 06 05:22
oiaohmgulag2013: You forgot cats.Oct 06 05:25
gulag2013I don't drink cat milk either, ha ha. I know what you meantOct 06 05:25
oiaohmgulag2013: cats drink other amimals milk.Oct 06 05:25
gulag2013You do notice after they are past being kittens they don't do thatOct 06 05:25
oiaohmgulag2013: even big cats.Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: even adult cats will.Oct 06 05:26
gulag2013I have never seen a grown cat nursing Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: not nursing.Oct 06 05:26
gulag2013I will take you word on it. Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: when they cosume pray big cats willk drink the breast milk out.Oct 06 05:27
oiaohmgulag2013: its all about extracting as much from a kill possible.Oct 06 05:27
gulag2013Will they eat the whole animal raw, and have the stomach designed for that. Oct 06 05:27
oiaohmgulag2013: tigers and some big cats love full cream milk as rewards.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmIe cattle milk.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmWhat is close to there normal pray.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmgulag2013: the difference is volume.Oct 06 05:28
gulag2013A cows normal predator?Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmCats as adults take milk from other creatures as treaks.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: big cats.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: afica where most of the cattle breeds start the normal creature to kill them is big cats.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: so yes part right abotu drinking another animals breast milk in volume is abnormal.    But there are other animals that drink other creatures milk in small volumes.Oct 06 05:31
gulag2013Thank you for reminding me, good point I have seen my cats drink milk. Oct 06 05:32
gulag2013Here int the states they have pushed dairy as being vital for our health. That simply isnt' the case. You can get all you need from plants. Oct 06 05:33
oiaohmAnd some of the milk problem is human stupidity.   A1 and A2 milk.    A1 cattle produce more milk due to a dna alteration.  But also is less human compadible.   A2 milk cattle produce less milk but is more human compadible.Oct 06 05:33
oiaohmMajority of the cattle milk on shelves is A1 milk.Oct 06 05:33
gulag2013I didn't know that. I know they boil it so it really has no nutrition left. Oct 06 05:35
gulag2013They come after Raw milk sellers Oct 06 05:35
oiaohmgulag2013: wrong on the no nutrition left.Oct 06 05:36
gulag2013What could be left, after heating it at such high tempsOct 06 05:36
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oiaohmHmm just that was odd.Oct 06 05:59
gulag2013You get kicked off the internets ?Oct 06 06:00
JimmyCarterGUIs are always doom, noone has avoided itOct 06 06:01
JimmyCarteroops wrong chanOct 06 06:01
gulag2013What are you saying Mr Carter?Oct 06 06:01
oiaohmgulag2013: no it was power distrubance of some form.Oct 06 06:02
gulag2013I got you, UPS's are great for that Oct 06 06:03
JimmyCarteri was comiserating with someone in #android-devOct 06 06:03
gulag2013Oh cool, do you code apps?Oct 06 06:03
JimmyCarterBrown outs.  Build another power plant.Oct 06 06:03
JimmyCarteryupOct 06 06:03
JimmyCarterif you have nexus7 or better you can try my gameOct 06 06:03
oiaohmgulag2013: I do have a ups.   I suspect something overheated.Oct 06 06:03
gulag2013Nice, Android market place seems like the wild westOct 06 06:04
oiaohmgulag2013: machine only had been up for 6 months.Oct 06 06:04
JimmyCarteryup, its awesomeOct 06 06:04
oiaohmgulag2013: running around 80/90 percent load.Oct 06 06:04
JimmyCarterpretty soon the feds will ruin itOct 06 06:04
gulag2013oiaohm, that's great I switched to linux and have been up 4 days straight. Oct 06 06:04
gulag2013I wish I could try you game, my nexus 7 needs a new usb connectorOct 06 06:05
oiaohmgulag2013: with pastrusised milk I have been on the recieving end on non pastraised milk.Oct 06 06:05
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oiaohmgulag2013: the bad side there are nice little illness you can get from non pastrusised milk.Oct 06 06:06
gulag2013Yes, I wasn't trying to convince you against dairy, it's a choice I made and my tummy thanks me for it. Oct 06 06:06
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough the food value is barely altered by the pastruised and non pastruised.  Please note canning of food is the same process.Oct 06 06:07
gulag2013They do some crazy stuff to the milk and cows. Big Got Milk campaign is not an accident. Oct 06 06:08
gulag2013i have had non homogenized milk. I liked that much better. Oct 06 06:09
oiaohmnon homogenized can be pastruised as well.Oct 06 06:10
oiaohmThe ammount of mixing and altering of the ratios in milk they do is insane.Oct 06 06:10
gulag2013Now I drink Soy which is really not good I hear either,Oct 06 06:11
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gulag2013They strip the baby cows from the mothers at birth, that first milk is called colostrum  I think, it's bottled and sold. The baby boy who knows what happens. Oct 06 06:13
oiaohmThere are very few soy milks I can stand to drink.Oct 06 06:18
oiaohmMost soy milks are too grainy for my mouth.Oct 06 06:19
gulag2013There are hemp, rice, almond, soy, coconut, Have you ever tried coconut  ice cream? It's pretty good. Oct 06 06:20
DaemonFCalmond milk is way better than soyOct 06 06:22
DaemonFCjust remember to get the unflavored/unsweetened stuffOct 06 06:22
gulag2013Yes, I'm trying to watch my sugar, what is your reason for unOct 06 06:22
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft seve icescream avoid like plague.Oct 06 06:23
oiaohmcoconut is nice.Oct 06 06:23
DaemonFCI don't like them dumping in the extra sugar and caloriesOct 06 06:23
gulag2013Oh thanks for the tip. I have never tried soy ice creamOct 06 06:23
DaemonFCand I don't like the vanilla flavorOct 06 06:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its the softserve form.Oct 06 06:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its in fact colder than normal icecream.Oct 06 06:24
gulag2013Yes, the vanilla is to strongOct 06 06:24
DaemonFCThe unflavored stuff is pretty much exactly like skim milk. I use it in my cereal.Oct 06 06:24
oiaohmgulag2013: so you know that icescream head ache it gets you with massive nasty.Oct 06 06:24
gulag2013I'm not sure oiaohm, but I have suffered some serious dairy ice cream stomach aches. Because I don't have a governor  I just keep eatingOct 06 06:26
oiaohmgulag2013: Neither do I normally.Oct 06 06:26
gulag2013I like the plain almond milk Oct 06 06:26
DaemonFChttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/11/25/ways-on-buying-in-markets.aspxOct 06 06:26
TechrightsBot-trarticles.mercola.com | Supermarkets Influence Your Food Shopping Choices  [ http://ur1.ca/fufb3 ]Oct 06 06:26
DaemonFC"Displaying a dollar sign on the display decreases the likelihood of you making a purchase, because it's instinctively equated with "cost" or "spending." As Lindstrom says, "Removing the sign helps the consumer sidestep the harsh reality of outstanding bills and longer-term financial concerns.""Oct 06 06:27
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft serve is about the only icescream head ache in side one cone.Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCI never really thought about that, but now that I do...Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCKroger and Walmart don't put a dollar sign on the price tag.Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCThey put stickers that say "1.76" or ".99" or "10 for 10".Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCNot "$1.76", "$0.99", or "10 for $10".Oct 06 06:28
gulag2013Huh? I have been blind to that $ either way. Now i'm curiousOct 06 06:28
DaemonFC"Larger shopping carts equate to increased spending."Oct 06 06:28
DaemonFCYeah, when our Walmart became a super Walmart, they increased the size of the carts by about 50%Oct 06 06:28
oiaohmDaemonFC: its called cost saving.Oct 06 06:29
oiaohmDaemonFC: yes the ink saved on not printing the dollar sign adds up.Oct 06 06:29
gulag2013I know the supermarket here tries to hide the good coffee that is cheaper on the very bottom shelve. The whole eye level scamOct 06 06:30
DaemonFCgulag2013, Yes. They like to put the little bags of coffee that cost like 50 or 75 cents per ounce at eye level.Oct 06 06:30
gulag2013Ha ha the ink savings as they waste thousands on flyeersOct 06 06:30
DaemonFCThey put the bulk coffee that costs less on the bottom two shelves.Oct 06 06:31
gulag2013This was Panera bread company. You have that chain rightOct 06 06:31
gulag2013Anyway they have their brand in the supermarket now for $6 for 12 ounces and it's really good, but they try to hide it. So if it doesn't sell then what.Oct 06 06:32
DaemonFCThe "gourmet" coffee has gotten ridiculous.Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013What ever happened to honest pound of anything.Oct 06 06:33
DaemonFCThey have Starbucks for $8.99 for a one pound bag.Oct 06 06:33
oiaohmgulag2013: look at there flyers they are doing the same stunt.Oct 06 06:33
DaemonFCYou can get two pounds of store brand for $5.99Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013Sure they sell 1lbs Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013I'm still a bit snobby when it comes to good coffeeOct 06 06:34
gulag2013Stunt with whatOct 06 06:34
oiaohmgulag2013: are you the level that roasts your own?Oct 06 06:34
oiaohmgulag2013: no dollar signs.Oct 06 06:34
gulag2013No, that is  a lot of work and you can screw that up if you aren't careful. i will grind beans sometimes. Oct 06 06:35
gulag2013I watched a guy at a place roast, it is really good if you can get some the first week after a roastOct 06 06:36
gulag2013Anyway, yes they spend a lot of money studying us and monitoring our purchasing habits. Sickening Oct 06 06:37
gulag2013I can't say I blame them, but I place people before money. Oct 06 06:38
gulag2013Mcdonalds and the famous free toy training little kids to be life long costumers Oct 06 06:40
gulag2013Coke and Pepsi feeding millions of gallons of corn sugar, and diabetes Oct 06 06:41
oiaohmgulag2013: you miss the caffine.Oct 06 06:41
oiaohmcaffine is not a 100 percent harmless drug.Oct 06 06:41
gulag2013I should be staying off it. I'm slowly drinking more green teaOct 06 06:41
oiaohmcaffine is most dangous when combind with suger.Oct 06 06:42
gulag2013I bet, Oct 06 06:42
gulag2013Sugar is some addictive stuff on it's own. I tried switching to stevia , yuck I can't drink that stuff. Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmIts like the drinks like redbull and mostor and so on they have caused deaths that have been documented by only minor over consumion.Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmMax ammout of redbull you should have a day is 1 can.Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmguess how many people don't obey that.Oct 06 06:43
gulag2013I know right, that stuff is dangerous. I have had those monster drinks before. Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmyet people drink 2 l of coke.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmSame ammout of active.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmThis is why coke is working on suger free versions so much.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmIe no suger no dead consumers.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmHopefully.Oct 06 06:44
gulag2013the sugar free stuff is even worse. Why is corn syrup to expensive as a sugar sub now?Oct 06 06:45
gulag2013AspartameOct 06 06:45
oiaohmstevia is a art to handle correctly.Oct 06 06:47
gulag2013I had a real coke made with sugar cane a few months back . I was very uneasy for over an hour. Oct 06 06:47
oiaohmsuger cane suger is less adctivive than corn syrup contain froctoosOct 06 06:47
oiaohmcorn syrup is not a good replacement for suger.Oct 06 06:48
gulag2013Yes, what they don't tell you is the corn syrup is around .20 cents a pound and the government subsidizes corn. Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmgulag2013: I have grown stevia plants.Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmgulag2013: the art with stevia usage is hard because stevia alone has a horid after taste.Oct 06 06:49
gulag2013Oh cool, I wonder if it's good like that, I have had the man made white concentrated powdered stuff. I don't like itOct 06 06:50
oiaohmgulag2013: touch of honey remove after taste.Oct 06 06:50
gulag2013I bet, good idea Oct 06 06:50
oiaohmIe use stevia correctly it increases the suger taste.Oct 06 06:50
oiaohmBut you still need to put one of the real sugers in close to raw form.Oct 06 06:51
gulag2013i have some other thing called monk sugar, it's okay but tastes sort of like steviaOct 06 06:51
gulag2013Agave is sort of scamOct 06 06:52
gulag2013I'm going Vegan so I'm supposed to not eat Honey, but that seems a bit extreme. Oct 06 06:53
oiaohmhttp://national.cleanplates.com/health-nutrition/the-new-sugar-monk-fruit/Oct 06 06:53
TechrightsBot-trnational.cleanplates.com | The new "sugar" is...monk fruit! Learn the different types.Healthy Recipes and Sustainable Food  [ http://ur1.ca/fufeo ]Oct 06 06:53
oiaohmmonk fruit is a lot clearner source of natural sweetener.  gulag2013Oct 06 06:54
oiaohmgulag2013: yes simlar compounds to stevia.  No nasty after taste.Oct 06 06:54
gulag2013It's good, not perfect but betterOct 06 06:55
oiaohmgulag2013: but same thing like stevia a very small does of honey or brown suger is enough to fully fool taste buds.Oct 06 06:55
oiaohmIe brown suger with monk fruit works where it does not with stevia.Oct 06 06:56
gulag2013True, i'm an addict though, i'm trying to just cut that out, but it's super hard. Oct 06 06:56
oiaohmBasically 90 to 95 percent of the suger load can be replaced.Oct 06 06:56
oiaohm5 to 10 percent has to remain or your taste buds will pick the difference.Oct 06 06:57
gulag2013I believe that, I was off of sugar for a week and my taste buds appreciated bananas. Oct 06 06:57
oiaohmYou don't get where you were going.Oct 06 06:58
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose  bananas are high Fructose.Oct 06 06:59
TechrightsBot-tren.wikipedia.org | Fructose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaOct 06 06:59
gulag2013Yes, but i'm the camp that the fiber and minerals help the digestion and it's not the same as stripped out fructose. Oct 06 07:00
gulag2013My body is fine on fruit sugars, I could eat a bag of oranges and not crash. Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough fructose is more adictive than general suger  ie sucrose sugercane.Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmoranges are not that high in fructose.Oct 06 07:01
gulag2013I see, makes sense I love bananas. Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmfructose in high doese causes crashes like sucrose.Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmgulag2013: basically you are lining up to swap one addiction for another.Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmModeration.Oct 06 07:02
gulag2013ha ha, yes but it's real food Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmI guess you also love corn.Oct 06 07:03
oiaohmbasically you cut suger and your body gets sneaky.Oct 06 07:04
oiaohmAnd makes you crave the fructose items instead.Oct 06 07:04
gulag2013No, I barely eat corn I think it's all been contaminated by Monsanto. Oct 06 07:05
oiaohmhttp://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htmOct 06 07:05
TechrightsBot-trlowcarbdiets.about.com | Fructose - Sweet But Dangerous - The Dangers of Fructose  [ http://ur1.ca/fufh0 ]Oct 06 07:05
gulag2013What do they call that negative calories, I don't think it has much nutrition and you body doesn't even digest it. Oct 06 07:05
oiaohmgulag2013: fructose puts presure on liver.Oct 06 07:05
gulag2013I have read that. Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmYes you avoid one stack of nasty side effect and can walk straight into another.Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmModeration usage of fructose and sucrose is fine.Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmSame with other sugers.Oct 06 07:06
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oiaohmIn fact bannas also contain sucrose  gulag2013Oct 06 07:08
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oiaohmgulag2013: so yep suger in nice hidden for.   1 or 2 bannas a day fine pig out on them you are asking for it.Oct 06 07:08
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gulag2013I have had more than two and talk about getting high and full of energyOct 06 07:10
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oiaohmgulag2013: just because it natural does not mean it cannot harm you.Oct 06 07:13
gulag2013Well tell an Ape that he eats to many bananas. Oct 06 07:14
gulag2013I do appreciate your help, I'm pleasantly surprised you are that informed on the subject. Oct 06 07:15
DaemonFCA woman looks outside and sees a man masturbating on her front porch, so she calls 911. "There's a damned Democrat masturbating on my front porch!". The 911 operator says "Could you say that again!?". The woman says "I told you, there's a damned Democrat masturbating on my front porch!". The 911 operator says "How do you know he's a Democrat?. The woman says "Duh! If he was a Republican, he'd be fucOct 06 07:16
DaemonFCking ME!"Oct 06 07:16
gulag2013drum roll, okay slightly funnyOct 06 07:17
oiaohmgulag2013: they have different bio to us.   We are more fish/meat eaters than the Apes.   Heck the Apes can make vitiman c where we cannot.Oct 06 07:17
oiaohmgulag2013: that is some of the big things.Oct 06 07:17
oiaohmParticular items the human body cannot make means human body burns less fuel than our Ape relations.Oct 06 07:18
gulag2013i reserve that is were I argue that we may be able to eat meat, but it ferments in our system and causes all kinds of health issues. Oct 06 07:19
oiaohmIts the fact we can eat meat why being vegan is so hard.Oct 06 07:20
oiaohmmeat in the form fish or read or white.  Basically contains chemicals human body skips out on producing.Oct 06 07:21
oiaohmWhere are normal ape would be able to produce those chemicals.Oct 06 07:21
gulag2013I don't find it hard, i'm mean I'm not against it for survival. Part me thinks that is why we can, during winter months with no food. We would have been deadOct 06 07:21
oiaohmSo a vegan has to be very careful to eat plants that provide those chemicals.Oct 06 07:22
oiaohmSomething buddist monks worked out how to do for most people.Oct 06 07:22
oiaohmgulag2013: basically want to live vegan take a buddist cooking classes.Oct 06 07:23
gulag2013That would be cool, I'm interested in buddist teachings myself. Oct 06 07:23
oiaohmMy case is a little different I have a new proten multation.  So I have to eat meat until I do find a plant that can provide that one.Oct 06 07:23
gulag2013Protein/Oct 06 07:24
oiaohmgulag2013: basically I would love to come a buddist monk but I cannot live in the eat vegan diet.Oct 06 07:24
gulag2013I have no interest in becoming a monk, just to be more aligned with nature. Oct 06 07:24
oiaohmBasically buddist monks have thousands of years of knolledge about living vegan.Oct 06 07:25
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gulag2013They are known to be vegans, yep. Oct 06 07:26
oiaohmvery good at it.Oct 06 07:26
gulag2013I read some are allowed to eat some meat. It depends Oct 06 07:26
oiaohmgulag2013: buddist rules are not set in solid stone.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmIf they are served meat not to offend host they will eat it.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmBut they are not mean to intetionally seek out to kill it.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmor have it killed to suite there needs.Oct 06 07:28
oiaohmbasically buddist monks are sane they are not going to stave to death if allready killed meat is the only thing on offer.Oct 06 07:28
gulag2013That is where my mind is at. I don't have the stomach to kill animals for my food. So I don't pay others to do it for me. Oct 06 07:28
oiaohmwhile I am eating meat I don't have the stomach either.Oct 06 07:29
oiaohmIf I go off meat I become a very different person.Oct 06 07:29
oiaohmbasically nature taking over to get what my body required.Oct 06 07:30
gulag2013That is today, maybe tomorrow I will eat meat again, I don't like absolutes. Today I didnt' eat meat. Oct 06 07:30
oiaohmso increase agreesion.Oct 06 07:30
oiaohmgulag2013: so you are very much a buddist are core.Oct 06 07:30
gulag2013I don't know. I haven't researched it muchOct 06 07:31
gulag2013I like the idea. Oct 06 07:31
gulag2013Being your own power is very important to me. Not worshiping a false god Oct 06 07:32
oiaohmgulag2013: buddist have to major sects.Oct 06 07:32
oiaohmgulag2013: one see budda who was a real person as a real living teacher who died.Oct 06 07:32
oiaohmThat sect does not worsh budda at all.Oct 06 07:33
oiaohmgulag2013: of coruse there is another sect to says he assended.Oct 06 07:33
oiaohmgulag2013: yes how to start a long buddist cat fight put both groups in the same room.Oct 06 07:34
oiaohmNormally ends with the normal no right to push your beliefs on others and everyone is free to have their own believes.Oct 06 07:34
oiaohmgulag2013: basically the right sect of buddist you would get alone with extreamly well.  Ok might not ever become a buddist but they would be no problem to your because their believes would be simplar.Oct 06 07:35
gulag2013No, we shouldn't be doing that. I have to be careful of that. I just see people trying to reach false happiness and it's sad to watch. Oct 06 07:35
DaemonFCI found some pictures of my mom and my aunt in Paris from back in 2009.Oct 06 07:43
DaemonFC(the aunt that died in August)Oct 06 07:43
DaemonFCI'm going to pull them off these CDs and archive them.Oct 06 07:44
gulag2013Onto what media?Oct 06 07:45
gulag2013Is there something that would last a lifetime? I know cd's are not great. Oct 06 07:46
gulag2013Oh bluetooth devices still get me cranky, I would figure they would just work at this point. Oct 06 07:49
oiaohmgulag2013: look up mdiscOct 06 07:50
oiaohmgulag2013:  http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/  combind that with dvdisaster you have very long term achive media.Oct 06 07:51
TechrightsBot-trwww.mdisc.com | What is M-Disc™? » The M-DISC™Oct 06 07:51
DaemonFCWell, I'll email them to my mom.Oct 06 07:52
DaemonFCAs far as I know, Google doesn't lose files.Oct 06 07:53
oiaohmDaemonFC: they have in the past.Oct 06 07:53
oiaohmDaemonFC: google is not 100 percent bullet proffOct 06 07:53
gulag2013M-Disc looks interesting, but they need to be sold local Oct 06 07:55
gulag2013I love hate Google. I use google drive for some stuff, but it's against my nature to allow a cloud to hold my stuff. Oct 06 07:56
oiaohmproblem is there is not much options.Oct 06 07:57
prurigrogoogle drive is amazing for collaborationOct 06 07:58
gulag2013prurigro, I agree and it's one reason I still keep my gmailOct 06 07:58
gulag2013Those M discs I see a problem. We won't have optical drives in 1000 years. Oct 06 07:59
prurigroyou don't need a mail for itOct 06 07:59
gulag2013I retract that maybe no opticals in ten yearsOct 06 07:59
prurigroI keep mine for certain categories of things I don't mind on the potentially public record (depending who google shares with), but you can definitel just sign up for drive/docs with another emalOct 06 07:59
gulag2013Yes, I opted way out of google *Oct 06 08:00
gulag2013google + sorry about thatOct 06 08:00
oiaohmgulag2013: there will be a good question what will we have in 10 years.Oct 06 08:03
oiaohmM disc storage will live to what ever the new storage will be.Oct 06 08:03
oiaohmCurrent harddrives and flash drives don't have the life span.Oct 06 08:04
gulag2013I hope we still have removable media, apple is starting to solder the flash storage on the motherboards. Oct 06 08:04
oiaohmPrinting hardcopies take too much space.Oct 06 08:04
oiaohmgulag2013: really it would be warped if in the next 10 years we have cameras on devices high enough res to scan dvd discs.Oct 06 08:07
gulag2013Startling, Did that idea just come to you. ThatOct 06 08:07
gulag2013ThatOct 06 08:07
gulag2013That would be wild. Oct 06 08:08
oiaohmgulag2013: I have wondered that idea for a while.Oct 06 08:09
gulag2013No doubt, you would just have a  spinning spindle of some kind underneath a dome with the camera lens on topOct 06 08:09
oiaohmRealy no.Oct 06 08:09
oiaohmI have done grids of 2d bar codes.Oct 06 08:10
oiaohmSo as long as the camera can run over and join the different framements up.Oct 06 08:10
oiaohmSo disc does not need to spin.Oct 06 08:11
oiaohmThe most compact cd play that never went into production cut the cd in two and used a scaning head that moved.Oct 06 08:11
gulag2013i'm not that smart about this, but wow that would be great make an iso from your phone camera straight to your phone. Oct 06 08:11
oiaohmWe are talking insanely high resolution.Oct 06 08:12
oiaohmBasical microscope in camera.Oct 06 08:12
gulag2013You have yourself a  patent,Oct 06 08:12
gulag2013Don't let the idea get lost. Oct 06 08:12
oiaohmCurrently I archive over 1.5 megs per side of sheet of paperOct 06 08:13
oiaohmof a4Oct 06 08:13
oiaohmThat is scanable in on a mobile phone.Oct 06 08:13
oiaohmYes current day tech.Oct 06 08:13
oiaohmgulag2013: ie passwords in file that are a little hard to copy quickly.Oct 06 08:14
gulag2013Neat, using what that would save me some agravation for scrap records. Oct 06 08:14
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gulag2013I'm trying to stay paperless, I scan most of my stuff on a cheap cannon flatbed. Your phones sounds convenient Oct 06 08:16
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oiaohmgulag2013: my long term goal is to be able to get books printed using the system I do.Oct 06 08:20
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gulag2013That would be great. I know I value less stuff. Oct 06 08:23
oiaohmgulag2013: I just think it would be funny to have the complete works of shakespear or other famous writers in a very thin book.Oct 06 08:30
gulag2013That would be nice, I have some software that will read the text for me. Oct 06 08:31
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oiaohmexactly the software on phones already exists to read the books.Oct 06 08:32
oiaohmA source of physical world books for phones is missing.Oct 06 08:32
gulag2013Well there is kindle and others on phonesOct 06 08:32
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oiaohmgulag2013: when I say physical I mean physical.Oct 06 08:34
gulag2013Oh sorry, maybe I donOct 06 08:34
oiaohmScanning a normal paper book in takes ages.Oct 06 08:34
oiaohmSo I started working on systems with the goal of being able to place like 1 or 2 pages in a book containing the complete book for easy scanning.Oct 06 08:35
gulag2013Okay, two pages at once?Oct 06 08:35
oiaohmgulag2013: one at a time scanning is designed into what I have done.Oct 06 08:36
oiaohmso 1 page half the book the next page the other half.Oct 06 08:36
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oiaohmI had to allow for phone camera limits gulag2013Oct 06 08:36
oiaohmie they don't do double side scaning or across fold very well.Oct 06 08:37
oiaohmYes the fun of camera focus.Oct 06 08:37
DaemonFChttp://www.cityautomall.com/VehicleDetails/used-2004-Ford-Freestar_Wagon-4dr_SEL-Columbia_City-IN/2065800953Oct 06 08:37
TechrightsBot-trwww.cityautomall.com | 2004 Ford Freestar Wagon for sale in Columbia City - 2FMZA52244BB20397 - City Automall  [ http://ur1.ca/fp8zy ]Oct 06 08:38
DaemonFCI still have my eye on that one.Oct 06 08:38
DaemonFCTold the guy that if he can knock a few hundred off of it, then I might buy it.Oct 06 08:38
DaemonFCIt's been on their lot since August.Oct 06 08:38
DaemonFCNo auction is going to give them $4,000 for it.Oct 06 08:38
DaemonFCI'm kind of hoping he gets sick of looking at it and offers it to me at $3,500.Oct 06 08:39
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DaemonFCThe guy called me back and offered that 2004 Crown Victoria to me for $2,500.Oct 06 08:44
DaemonFCI'm not sure I really want to get in on that though.Oct 06 08:44
DaemonFCRight off the bat, I'd have an ABS sensor to replace, an exhaust leak to fix, a transmission flush, and a blend motor issue for the heat/air conditioning system that would probably require them to take the dash apart. :POct 06 08:45
DaemonFCSo that's some serious money.Oct 06 08:46
DaemonFCThen it somehow got a chunk taken out of the front grill.Oct 06 08:46
DaemonFCSo I'd need to find a replacement grill.Oct 06 08:46
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iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/google-now-taking-down-eight-pirate-links-every-single-second-131005/Oct 06 09:18
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Google Now Taking Down Eight ‘Pirate’ Links Every Single Second | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fug5m ]Oct 06 09:18
iophk"If Nokia had kept MeeGo, Jolla wouldn't exist"Oct 06 09:22
iophkhttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/finland-and-nokia-an-affair-to-remember/2/Oct 06 09:22
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Finland and Nokia: An affair to remember | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fug64 ]Oct 06 09:22
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schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3134661Oct 06 10:24
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You? http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/is-slackware-the-oldest-remaining-linux-distribution-right-for-you/ #slackware #gnu #linuxOct 06 10:24
TechrightsBot-tr-> www.makeuseof.com | Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You?  [ http://ur1.ca/ftyfy ]Oct 06 10:24
schestowitz_bed2"the author gets rightly put in his place for such a superficial take on Slackware"Oct 06 10:24
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/2825073Oct 06 10:25
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: OK, I guess I got #Diaspora installed and running on the server side, need SSL certificate to take it liveOct 06 10:25
schestowitz_bed2"Is this up and running yet?"Oct 06 10:25
schestowitz_bed2No, I put that aside foir now Plenty of news to catch up with first, it's of higher priority.Oct 06 10:26
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schestowitz_bed2https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/3144074Oct 06 10:52
TechrightsBot-trwww.joindiaspora.com | ## Hate the "Sign in to Chrome" spyware feature of Chrome?  [ http://ur1.ca/fugr0 ]Oct 06 10:52
gulag2013I'm going to try this nice postOct 06 11:02
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014480.htmlOct 06 11:07
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/folf8 ]Oct 06 11:07
DaemonFCNvidia says they will be releasing some open documentation of their cards.Oct 06 11:07
JimmyCarteryou can trust google unless theyre subpoenaed or national security lettered, or whatever the hip feds bully with these daysOct 06 11:08
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014497.htmlOct 06 11:10
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCBOct 06 11:10
DaemonFC"While I'm personally one of the guys who wouldn't like to see a binary Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFCblob in nouveau, no matter the terms, I've read the firmware blobs Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFCdecompilation and I'm quite concerned about possible security implications."Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFClolOct 06 11:10
DaemonFCNvidia doesn't care about security. They only care about performance. Their driver also cheats. It tries to detect what you're running and apply hacks to speed up the frame rate.Oct 06 11:11
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014584.htmlOct 06 11:11
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/fugub ]Oct 06 11:11
DaemonFC"I need to retract my suggestion of Nouveau using NVIDIA'sOct 06 11:12
DaemonFCbinary-only microcode, at least until we get to a point where NVIDIAOct 06 11:12
DaemonFChas earned some trust from Nouveau in our microcode implementations."Oct 06 11:12
JimmyCarterdo they care about security performance ? ^^Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCYou don't earn trust by releasing binary-only firmware.Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCThe only purpose of binary-only firmware is to hide things.Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCJimmyCarter, I've lost count of the number of times that Nvidia's driver has caused critical security issues. They also don't bother to patch them until someone releases a program that actually demonstrates how to exploit their driver.Oct 06 11:13
JimmyCarterpretty soon someone will hack them with their exploits for their own software like adobeOct 06 11:14
DaemonFCProprietary firmware in an otherwise open driver is better than an entirely proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:14
DaemonFCThat's the way AMD decided to go with their open source driver.Oct 06 11:14
gulag2013I'm naive, but why play with Nvidia at all ? Oct 06 11:14
JimmyCartersome people need tflopsOct 06 11:15
DaemonFCBetter hardware than AMD, but the open driver is not very useful.Oct 06 11:15
DaemonFCSo if you use Nvidia, you're going to be stuck with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:15
DaemonFCThe Nouveau driver works with my graphics card, but it is painfully slow.Oct 06 11:16
DaemonFCOn really old Nvidia hardware, it sometimes works OK compared with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:17
DaemonFCI think the biggest practical concern right now with Nvidia's proprietary driver is that they haven't commented on how well they plan to support Wayland or Mir.Oct 06 11:18
DaemonFChttp://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/ubuntus-controversial-mir-window-system-wont-ship-with-13-10-desktop/Oct 06 11:22
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Ubuntu’s controversial Mir window system won’t ship with 13.10 desktop | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fugvy ]Oct 06 11:22
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DaemonFCUbuntu is conducting their negotiations with Nvidia and AMD regarding Mir support behind closed doors.Oct 06 11:22
gulag2013Hmm, All I know about Mir is that it is replacing X11 windows something. How will Mir improve the performance?Oct 06 11:25
DaemonFCI don't think it will.Oct 06 11:26
gulag2013I don't understand Ubuntu's intentions with most of what they are doing. Oct 06 11:27
DaemonFCThe justification for replacing X in both Wayland and Mir's case is mostly that X does a lot of undesirable things that can't easily be fixed.Oct 06 11:27
oiaohmgulag2013: X11 is crap.Oct 06 11:35
oiaohmgulag2013: there is even talk of X12 once Wayland and Mir is in place.Oct 06 11:35
oiaohmgulag2013: List of undesirable is X11 secuirty does not work.   Lets take screen savers they are repsonsable for handing non protected userpassword.Oct 06 11:36
gulag2013I don't know, they can do what ever they wish. There was a time I was excited but they flip flop in so many directions. IOct 06 11:36
MinceRoiaohm: what happens if the screensaver crashes on other systems?Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmgulag2013: history of X11 is horble.Oct 06 11:38
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oiaohmMinceR: under Linux the desktop unlocks.Oct 06 11:38
MinceR_other systems_Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmMinceR:  Windows password dialog is handled by the login manager.Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmMinceR: on the screensaver.Oct 06 11:38
MinceRso, what if that crashes?Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmIf login manager crashes on windows you user session is terminated.Oct 06 11:39
MinceR(as for protecting passwords, there's this >> http://www.openwall.com/tcb/ _Oct 06 11:39
TechrightsBot-trwww.openwall.com | tcb - the alternative to /etc/shadowOct 06 11:39
MinceRs/_/)/Oct 06 11:39
MinceRicOct 06 11:39
oiaohmBasically failure should not be access.Oct 06 11:39
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oiaohmSome bugs Windows and Linux has.Oct 06 11:42
oiaohmLike applications able to snoop on other applications windows without requiring permission.Oct 06 11:43
oiaohmHigh secuirty OS's don't tollerate this.Oct 06 11:43
gulag2013Hmm sounds like Explorer and that knowing what you are typing in other windows. Oct 06 11:43
oiaohmgulag2013: one of the key differences of Mir and Wayland is no snooping on other applications without permission from the program controlling the screen output.Oct 06 11:46
oiaohmYep programs by default can only screenshot their own windows.Oct 06 11:46
gulag2013So that is bug in both Linux and Windows?Oct 06 11:47
oiaohmYepOct 06 11:47
oiaohmFedora is dropping userspace X11 drivers.  Or I am a super big security flaw.Oct 06 11:47
oiaohmX11 userspace drivers require access to /dev/mem that is basically raw access to the complete system memory.Oct 06 11:48
gulag2013In what version, I want to test Fedora really soonOct 06 11:48
oiaohmuserspace drivers are very old things gulag2013Oct 06 11:48
oiaohmgulag2013: like you will not be attempting to use like s3 video cards right.Oct 06 11:48
gulag2013I really don't think so.. What is S3?Oct 06 11:49
oiaohmgulag2013: old type of video cardOct 06 11:49
oiaohmverry old type of video car.Oct 06 11:49
oiaohmcardOct 06 11:50
gulag2013Oh, This laptop is three years old, I highly doubt it. Oct 06 11:50
oiaohmgulag2013: no way in hell its in there.Oct 06 11:51
oiaohmgulag2013: we are talking almost 10 years ago was the last time they were made.Oct 06 11:51
gulag2013Ha ha,  well I still plan on testing Fedora. I was thinking userspaces was Workspaces, I turned that of I don't use it. Oct 06 11:53
oiaohmX11 first was design to be fully userspace.Oct 06 11:54
oiaohmNice big security holes.Oct 06 11:55
oiaohmThen it evolved to a little kernel assisted but poorly done.Oct 06 11:55
oiaohmgulag2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_jZYDzek8   This is a good watch for even just a few minor generations back in X11 drivers issues.Oct 06 11:57
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | XDC2013: David Herrmann - DRM Security - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh2e ]Oct 06 11:57
oiaohmgulag2013: basically dri2 the last generation of X11 drivers for Linux has to be deprecated because it security flawed.Oct 06 11:57
gulag2013Okay, great I can do videos. This topic is a little hard for me to follow.  A little sad for me,  I was thinking Linux was more secure. Oct 06 11:59
oiaohmgulag2013: to be true Linux is more secure than Windows but that is serousally not hard.Oct 06 12:00
oiaohmgulag2013: but compared to high rated secuirty OS's Linux is nothing.Oct 06 12:01
oiaohmFor desktop.Oct 06 12:01
gulag2013Yes, lol sounds like windows is a very low bar Oct 06 12:01
MinceRit isOct 06 12:01
MinceRand what about macos?Oct 06 12:01
oiaohmMinceR: macos for desktop is techically a head of Linux.Oct 06 12:02
gulag2013I read they just sneak in patches, so who knows the truthOct 06 12:02
oiaohmPlease note the for desktop bit.Oct 06 12:02
oiaohmLinux on server is a different game.   Its the graphical side of Linux that has been insanely weak.Oct 06 12:02
oiaohmthe work on wayland really was a sign that people were serousally looking at the Linux desktop.Oct 06 12:03
oiaohmAnd worked out that X11 could not be fixed.Oct 06 12:03
gulag2013Windows Metrofied Server 2012. Why Why Why Oct 06 12:03
MinceRwhy does it exist or why do people use it? :>Oct 06 12:04
gulag2013Why would you add tiles to itOct 06 12:04
prurigrooiaohm: in my experience, linux has been ahead of osx graphically in quite a number of ways for quite some time-- and the ogl limitations of open source drivers were more of an issue in osx last I checkedOct 06 12:04
oiaohmprurigro: secuirty wise OS X has been ahead.Oct 06 12:05
prurigrooiaohm: graphical security?Oct 06 12:05
oiaohmprurigro: mostly because OS X did the sane thing and not use X11Oct 06 12:05
prurigrohow so?Oct 06 12:06
MinceRwhat they did is not saneOct 06 12:06
oiaohmX11 basically has no graphical secruity.Oct 06 12:06
MinceRthe gui is supposed to be a selling point yet it can't maximize windows properly and it can't handle virtual desktops properlyOct 06 12:06
MinceRthe global menu bar is a usability failureOct 06 12:06
oiaohmMinceR: from a userablity point of view I would agree OS X is not sane.Oct 06 12:06
prurigrooiaohm: in regards to what? display servers from other local display servers?Oct 06 12:06
MinceRi thought so :)Oct 06 12:06
gulag2013The maximizing windows on OSX bugs me, Oct 06 12:07
prurigroI got a mac a while back to see what the deal was and there were issues I was running into that I researched and found were essentially "problems with the osx ogl implementation" and that osx was not for gamesOct 06 12:07
prurigrobut that's not really the topicOct 06 12:07
oiaohmprurigro: Like X11 does not include a proper screensaver handling.Oct 06 12:07
oiaohmprurigro: does not include proper memory protections.Oct 06 12:08
gulag2013Ha ha, is that why I have to use caffeine to keep my videos playingOct 06 12:08
oiaohmprurigro: in fact for X11 to operate with other X11 applications you cannot setup secreen secuiryt.Oct 06 12:08
prurigroshould the display server be responsible for screensavers? memory protection I'll give you on shared servers and stuff, but you were talking about the desktopOct 06 12:08
prurigrowell its host based rightOct 06 12:08
prurigroso all or nothing at the localhost levelOct 06 12:09
oiaohmprurigro: to be correct login manager should be in charge of screensaver in a lot of ways.Oct 06 12:09
MinceRit doesn't have to be the login managerOct 06 12:09
oiaohmsystemd-logind  for wayland can run screensaver as independant instance.Oct 06 12:09
oiaohmSo screensaver dies and you have access to nothing.Oct 06 12:10
prurigrogdm does a decent job these days I've foundOct 06 12:10
oiaohmprurigro: exactly why is a login manager graphical.Oct 06 12:10
prurigroword, but you still don't think this is secure enough?Oct 06 12:10
oiaohmprurigro: you want the least possible running as root.Oct 06 12:11
DaemonFClolOct 06 12:11
oiaohmremember gdm is infact running as root.Oct 06 12:11
DaemonFCwatching Malcolm in the MiddleOct 06 12:11
DaemonFC"They have advanced textbooks, and good teachers, and all sorts of things they don't want to waste on normal kids."Oct 06 12:11
prurigrooiaohm: yeah, though if noone can remotely connect to gdm it shouldn't be an issueOct 06 12:11
oiaohmprurigro: no you are forgeting shared computers.Oct 06 12:12
oiaohmLike in libraries.Oct 06 12:12
prurigrowell I wouldn't exactly define that as a desktopOct 06 12:12
DaemonFCI hated public school. I had to go there for a couple of years and felt like I was rotting.Oct 06 12:12
prurigrothose are more along the lines of terminals, in my experienceOct 06 12:12
oiaohmprurigro: they can still be full desktop computers.Oct 06 12:12
oiaohmBasically the complete design of X11 is just flawed all over the place.Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCWhen I went back to private school, I ended up finishing three years worth of material in a year and finishing high school at the age of 15.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmLike GDM is a hack.Oct 06 12:13
prurigrosure, but you wouldn't have people staying logged in while others use themOct 06 12:13
prurigroin libraryOct 06 12:13
prurigroies*Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCI've always been one to "rip the bandaid off".Oct 06 12:13
prurigroif they were desktopsOct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: x11 was desing as a single user interface.Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCWhen something is unpleasant, I push myself to just get it over with.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: instead of redesign it properly.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmitems like GDM were invented.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: remember running as root you can login to any user.Oct 06 12:14
prurigrooiaohm: X11 came along when the idea of multiple people using the same computer (that wasn't a terminal) wasn't really feasibleOct 06 12:14
oiaohmprurigro: no the first version of X11 was single user.Oct 06 12:14
prurigrooiaohm: you don't think gdm drops permissions as soon as its launched?Oct 06 12:14
oiaohmthe multi user bit was added latter.Oct 06 12:14
DaemonFCX11 is only slightly older than I am.Oct 06 12:15
DaemonFCIt hasn't aged well.Oct 06 12:15
prurigroyeah, that's what I was saying-- it's not even really multiuser now-- just separate serversOct 06 12:15
oiaohmprurigro: it cannot because there was no background server to change from user to user.Oct 06 12:15
prurigrowhat do you mean?Oct 06 12:16
MinceRif it's the first version, it's X1, not X11 :>Oct 06 12:16
oiaohmMinceR: no X11 was design as a extendable protocol.Oct 06 12:17
DaemonFC"The first truly modular disaster."Oct 06 12:17
prurigroare we on X11R7 yet? :)Oct 06 12:17
oiaohmprurigro: display managers or like KDM/GDM.  start the X11 server that is the user session.Oct 06 12:17
MinceRi seem to remember that x.org is now X11R7 or something.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: and that X11 server still runs as root.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: wayland is infact design never to be running as root.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: all root operations are pushed back to the logind or equal.Oct 06 12:18
prurigrooiaohm: what do you suppose the gdm user and groups are on my computer for then?Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: that allows attempted steping down.Oct 06 12:19
prurigroI'm pretty sure that's what the xserver would be run underOct 06 12:19
prurigrolike, it doesn't need root to run XOct 06 12:19
oiaohmOnly recent X11 with DRI2 got the means to run without root a little.Oct 06 12:20
prurigroweird, my system shows gdm running "systemd"Oct 06 12:21
oiaohmsystemd places other wrappers around gdm.Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFChttp://www.amazon.com/forum/politics/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1S3QSZRUL93V8&cdThread=Tx1X8DTHZCC4Y2LOct 06 12:21
prurigrohrm? what do you mean the means to run without root?Oct 06 12:21
TechrightsBot-trwww.amazon.com | Amazon.com: Customer Discussions: US Military Will Use Drones to Spy on North Korea  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh6z ]Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC"Beginning next spring, the Air Force will fly several drones near North Korean borders to gather intelligence data on the reclusive country, where an estimated 24 million people live under oppression, sealed off from the rest of the world."Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFCpfft....Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFCThey've been doing that in a country of 300 million oppressed people that are increasingly sealed off from the rest of the world for over ten years.Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC:) Oct 06 12:21
oiaohmprurigro: only with DRI2+ drivers.Oct 06 12:22
prurigroX has always been able to run without root-- we were talking about *dmsOct 06 12:22
oiaohmprurigro: to interface with screen X11 has always required root.Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmUntil dri2Oct 06 12:22
prurigrowhat about when you logged in as your user and ran "startx"?Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmThen dri2 buffer handling was stuffed up and guessable.Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmprurigro: that is a suid bitted as rootOct 06 12:22
prurigroand X too?Oct 06 12:23
prurigroit isn't on my machineOct 06 12:23
prurigroahh, xorg is thoOct 06 12:23
prurigrowell there ya goOct 06 12:24
prurigrolearned something new :)Oct 06 12:24
oiaohmYep.Oct 06 12:25
oiaohmOr in otherwords the first secuirty hole we want by by.Oct 06 12:26
prurigroon a similar note, wayland is in serious need of full desktop support (which I hear gnome 3.10 is almost able to deliver now), but it worked quite nicely last I testedOct 06 12:26
oiaohmprurigro: gets worse when you start running more than 1 x11 session on a single video card and switching between them.Oct 06 12:26
brendynman, anyone know how to do javascript bullshit to download things begind jplayer buttons and ajax pages?Oct 06 12:26
oiaohmprurigro: like with DRI2 and beffer only one set off buffers on the video card.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmprurigro: so lets play the magic dance of not step on each other.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmDRI3 is bring render nodes and other isolation things.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmWell and truely overdue.Oct 06 12:28
prurigrobrendyn: ajax will be exposed to everything that looks at the source once the page loads it (view source simply chooses to give ou the pre-ajax version, so grab developer tools or maybe it was firebug to view the newer sources)Oct 06 12:28
prurigrobrendyn: and then I think jplayer just has you drop the filename into its args iircOct 06 12:28
brendynprurigro: I need to do it systematically with tens of thousands of files on thousands of pages Oct 06 12:29
*brendyn promises he is up to no goodOct 06 12:29
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, I definitely had points back in the day where offscreens from one session were accidentally pasted into refreshing images on another display server session-- xgl helped a lot thereOct 06 12:29
prurigrobrendyn: hmm, I woner if wget or curl can trigger ajax...Oct 06 12:29
oiaohmprurigro: the possiblity todo that is still in all current X11 servers.Oct 06 12:29
brendyni searched google but it really didnt look promisingOct 06 12:30
brendyni could not find much interesting in inspect elementOct 06 12:30
oiaohmprurigro: basically X11 is a huge stuffed up mess.Oct 06 12:30
oiaohmprurigro: this is why X12 is being considered after wayland.  For a new remote X11 protocal with a huge stack of legacy stupidity killed.Oct 06 12:30
prurigrobrendyn: maybe use firebug to check what arguments are triggering the ajax to load new stuff, and then emulate that input using curl?Oct 06 12:31
brendynhmmm maybe, but its alright beyond my newby skillsOct 06 12:31
prurigrooiaohm: ontop of wayland or as a more use-specific platform now that the desktop people won't be complaining?Oct 06 12:32
prurigrobrendyn: that's how you learn though!Oct 06 12:32
oiaohmprurigro: wayland will be able to do remote very well using rendernodes and other things to send 3d grade graphics by VNC or RDP.Oct 06 12:33
brendynOh wow, you're completely right. I had to click to expand (yet another) html div thingy before I could see the direct linkOct 06 12:33
oiaohmprurigro: X12 will be attempt to get a more traffic compact protocol.Oct 06 12:33
brendynHowever, this still leaves the challange of making wget do itOct 06 12:33
brendynI was thinking that It could be possible with some kind of javascript bookmarklet, but i dont even know javascriptOct 06 12:33
prurigrooiaohm: oh sick-- that's actually a major fallback in the usability dept for X11; RDP style drawing, where a compressed image isn't what's required to be sentOct 06 12:34
oiaohmprurigro: RDP and VNC are both compressed image sends.Oct 06 12:34
oiaohmprurigro: virtualgl prototype with X11 was also compressed image send but it did not work well because it was hacking the local video card drivers to work.Oct 06 12:35
brendynIf i copy paste the link to wget I can download it, and i dont even need to use my login detailsOct 06 12:35
oiaohmprurigro: basically remote 3d acceated will become normal.Oct 06 12:35
prurigrobrendyn: I feel like you might have better luck with curl or something where you're speaking to the server rather than something attempting to download the html presented... though following links would be far less energy than curlOct 06 12:35
brendynbut traversing the page to get the link in the first place... :/Oct 06 12:35
oiaohmprurigro: X11 remote advantage is the means to send to client end what area of screen are of intest to applications.Oct 06 12:36
oiaohmprurigro: so clicking else were does not result in network traffic that much.Oct 06 12:36
brendynhmm ok, but where to start.Oct 06 12:36
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, that part I like too-- surely wayland could do that though since the whole 3d thing places each screen in a separate offscreenOct 06 12:37
prurigrobrendyn: I've done something similar by using sqlite to create a temporary database of links each time it happens upon one (with an if statement checking it's in the domain I want checked), not adding duplicaes, and then going through one by one each time it gets to the end of the previousOct 06 12:38
brendynholy shitOct 06 12:38
brendynwhat about http://ubuntuincident.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/scraping-ajax-web-pages/Oct 06 12:39
prurigroused that to parse a giant intranet site and extract relevant information in the header and footer of each :)Oct 06 12:39
TechrightsBot-trubuntuincident.wordpress.com | Scraping AJAX web pages (Part 1) | The Ubuntu Incident  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh9q ]Oct 06 12:39
brendynsecond option uses webkitOct 06 12:39
prurigroohh yeah, I forgot there was a cli version of webkitOct 06 12:39
brendynreckon it would be fruitful to try it?Oct 06 12:40
prurigroodds of getting it to easily give you the resulting ajax page are higher, so I'd say yes-- even if you do then have to do something fancy for a recursive scanOct 06 12:40
oiaohmprurigro: X12 also will move applications off screens into independant zones.   So different handling to share buffers.Oct 06 12:41
prurigrooiaohm: even when rendering 2d you mean?Oct 06 12:41
oiaohmprurigro: even for 2d rendering.Oct 06 12:41
prurigro(since it already does this sans memory protection in 3d)Oct 06 12:41
prurigrointerestingOct 06 12:41
oiaohmprurigro: you know X11 magic stuff.Oct 06 12:41
brendynthe website has a page full of normal html links. i follow those, and then there are 5 ajax tabs that contain different collections of text and jplayer buttons that i need to downloadOct 06 12:42
oiaohmprurigro: this is really stupid.   Over network X11 sends magic ID as plain text.Oct 06 12:42
oiaohmprurigro: X11 without ssh wrapping is open to attack so many ways its not funny.Oct 06 12:42
prurigrobrendyn: you're going for the text too eh? I guess you could just get a list of links to parse the first time, then go through and wget each of those directly with a second script, as an alternative (assuming links aren't generated for the session)Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: Like at Univistory I use to be able to snoop on anyones screen because it was not encrypted.Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: yes X11 default spec says not encrypted.Oct 06 12:43
prurigrooiaohm: they're probably relying on the networking solution being used to protect it no? like ssh?Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: what happens if you are logged into the same source matching.Oct 06 12:44
prurigrouniversity shoulda setup their vpn with encryptionOct 06 12:44
prurigroit should be end to endOct 06 12:44
prurigroa different terminal shell shouldn't even be able to see itOct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: but its not ssh wrapping.Oct 06 12:44
prurigroyeah, but their vpnOct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: same with vpn from same host.Oct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: ie traffic snooping same end.Oct 06 12:45
prurigrowouldn't each terminal be a separate end point?Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmEncrypted protocols beat VPN.Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmprurigro: histroically no.Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmprurigro: because cgroup network splitting is only recent invention and basically not used.Oct 06 12:46
prurigroI'm a firm believer that the bottom network layer should be encryptedOct 06 12:46
oiaohmI am a firm believer that what should be encrypted should be encrypted when it enters the network stack anywhere.Oct 06 12:46
prurigroword, cjdns would work, though that's too recent to be the solution used in schoolsOct 06 12:46
prurigroI actually like the idea of TRESOR on that noteOct 06 12:47
prurigrothough I don't feel like maintaining my own kernel fork of Arch'sOct 06 12:47
prurigrotresor + cjdns would be encrypted for the local machine before entering the network stack, and then encrypted the moment it does thanks to cjdnsOct 06 12:48
prurigro(the latter being encrypted for the destination)Oct 06 12:49
prurigroI suppose at that point the only potential hole would be someone on the local machine with root access tcpdumpingOct 06 12:49
brendynI think there are latency critical tasks in various areas of science etc, such that mandatory encryption screws with that a bitOct 06 12:50
prurigrowhich would be solved by X encrypting the stream, trueOct 06 12:50
prurigroI woudln't really trust a remote X session to be real time.. hahaOct 06 12:50
prurigroalso, the spec says no encryption is mandatory; oiaohm wasn't suggesting to make encryption mandatory, just remove the "you can't do that"Oct 06 12:51
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oiaohmprurigro: exactly encryption should be optionalOct 06 12:51
oiaohmprurigro: not forbinOct 06 12:52
prurigroyeah- if people want every layer of their computer encrypted they should be able toOct 06 12:52
brendynif network providers encrypt, you have no choice but to deal with the consequencesOct 06 12:52
prurigroand ideally, people could use a encryption type of their choiceOct 06 12:52
oiaohmallowing tcpdumping should not magically destroy eveyrone privacy.Oct 06 12:53
prurigrotrueOct 06 12:53
oiaohmThinking you might need to tcpdump to debug issues.Oct 06 12:53
prurigrocourse, you want password + pub/priv key crypto if you wanna be post-quantum, so hopefully they'd include thatOct 06 12:53
prurigrono sense in encrypting if your packets can be opened up in a couple yearsOct 06 12:54
prurigrowell, a sense, but less of one than keeping your info secure for the foreseeable futureOct 06 12:54
oiaohmprurigro: couple of years might be enough secuirty.Oct 06 12:55
oiaohmLike to prevent insider trading.Oct 06 12:55
oiaohmprurigro: encrypted is a question of are the objectives.   Not all encryption has to have a long life.Oct 06 12:58
prurigrotrue, it depends what you're protecting ehOct 06 13:02
*rysiek|pl is now known as ysio|plOct 06 13:02
prurigroI'd rather not need to think how long I need something hidden for (if at all) for some more generic things like remote desktop thoughOct 06 13:03
brendyncomputers are probably the most frustrating thing in the universeOct 06 13:12
DaemonFCWhat the hell is up with edmunds.com?Oct 06 13:13
prurigros/frustrating/awesomeOct 06 13:13
DaemonFCI went to look at the reliability rating for the Ford Freestar, and it lists "no major problems".Oct 06 13:13
DaemonFCBut it seems like anyone that has actually owned one reports that the transmission burns out about every 60,000 miles and they have other issues as well.Oct 06 13:13
DaemonFCThe engine seems to be the only good thing on the van (figures, since it's the same one they put on the F-150).Oct 06 13:14
iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-founder-asks-danish-authorities-to-drop-hacking-case-131006/Oct 06 13:14
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay Founder Asks Danish Authorities to Drop Hacking Case | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhgq ]Oct 06 13:14
DaemonFCFord recalled a few hundred thousand of them to fix the transmission issue, but people that were paying to have the transmission repaired before the recall were paying about $2,800 for a rebuild.Oct 06 13:15
iophk“It would be remarkable if the Danes bring Gottfrid to court in spite of  the Swedish judgment. It would mean, in principle, that one country  after another could do this to him despite the acquittal,”Oct 06 13:15
DaemonFCAs far as I can tell, Ford didn't recall the one that I was looking at, but I still don't want to risk any of my money on it.Oct 06 13:15
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brendynprurigro: i wonder if i could do it with emacs lol by loading the page to it, opening the js bullshit and then using macros to eat up the html and download stuffOct 06 13:39
prurigrobrendyn: why on earth would you use emacs for that? haha, grep and sed should be plentyOct 06 13:40
brendynbecause emacs can do everythingOct 06 13:40
brendynim still trying to figure out how to just open the god damn pageOct 06 13:40
prurigroyeah, but grep and sed can be loaded into a scriptOct 06 13:40
prurigroonce you get that, if you can output the text to your screen you're setOct 06 13:41
brendynIf I can actually get the generated html, then everything is downhill from thereOct 06 13:41
prurigrogrep -o -e is your friend (-o only returns the part that matches and -e is for regex)Oct 06 13:41
brendynah didnt know thatOct 06 13:41
prurigroso like \"http:\/\/domain[^\"]*\" or something, then snip the quotes with sedOct 06 13:42
prurigroor cutOct 06 13:42
brendynI'll do that later. Currently I just want to figure out how to get through the javascriptOct 06 13:42
brendynive managed to log in to the site with wget and save cookiesOct 06 13:42
prurigrolol, not sure wget can handle ajax tho-- if you're not using that webkit thingOct 06 13:43
brendynthe internet tells me i cant do itOct 06 13:43
prurigrooh well, I'd trust the internet thenOct 06 13:43
brendyn;(Oct 06 13:43
brendynnot sure how to use webkitOct 06 13:43
brendyni wonder can i get to a login site with that tooOct 06 13:44
prurigroyou can almost definitely pass parametersOct 06 13:44
prurigroits webkitOct 06 13:44
brendynhow does one click an imaginary button :)Oct 06 13:45
brendynsorry but i just really fucking hate solving these problems so i have to ask for lots of helpOct 06 13:47
prurigrobrendyn: the button likely triggers a function or post that you can scriptOct 06 13:56
brendynyeahOct 06 14:00
brendynim trying to figure out logging to the site with phantomjsOct 06 14:00
brendynanyway i have to sleep so ill try it laterOct 06 14:04
brendynthanksOct 06 14:04
prurigrohaha good luck!Oct 06 14:06
prurigrociaoOct 06 14:06
iophkhttp://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/10/uk-debuts-first-open-standard.htmlOct 06 14:13
TechrightsBot-trwww.computerweekly.com | UK debuts first open standards with fanfare of kazoos - Public Sector IT  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhyy ]Oct 06 14:13
iophk"The ICT Strategy said document formats would be in the first tranche of compulsory open standards."Oct 06 14:16
iophkbut how far did they really get?Oct 06 14:16
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DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCAJ8ULnaIOct 06 15:02
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube Scam Caught on Tape! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui6v ]Oct 06 15:02
DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_626867&feature=iv&src_vid=wiCAJ8ULnaI&v=Pf6KY6rrqYUOct 06 15:12
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube still scamming customers! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui8i ]Oct 06 15:12
DaemonFCNobody should do an "engine flush".Oct 06 15:12
DaemonFCeverOct 06 15:12
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**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 15:58:36 2013
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 18:09:54 2013
*Now talking on #techrightsOct 06 18:09
*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellOct 06 18:09
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 18:09
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Sosumihum, George Galloway, the guy that was for the "Arab Spring" even through it was just another CIA masterminded eventOct 06 18:44
Sosumito kick "ditactors" who weren't playing ball with the USOct 06 18:44
Sosumiso now, thx to the arab spring we have Libya turned into safe heaven for Al-CIAeda,Oct 06 18:46
qu1j0t3right, we should certainly blame GG for that.Oct 06 18:46
*qu1j0t3 (~qu1j0t3@kvm5.telegraphics.com.au) has left #techrights ("whatever")Oct 06 18:46
SosumiTunisia into a meet the new boss, same or worst than the previous oneOct 06 18:46
SosumiEgipt and Syria got lucky after the general Sisi couped MorsiOct 06 18:47
Sosumiotherwise with Morsi and his british subservient Nuts Brotherhood we'd have got an egyptian incurssion into SyriaOct 06 18:48
Sosumiso yeah Georgie boy is now saving his dirty face, but just like Farage, no breaking, no breaking of the money power of the city of londonOct 06 18:51
Sosuminot to mention the whole free market demagogy, yeah derregulation so the big cartels can come and rape everyone's walletOct 06 18:53
Sosumigot to love them all, Ron Paul, Farage, Georgie boy, Fat Tony...Oct 06 18:55
Sosumiall work in different ways but they're all letalOct 06 18:55
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MinceRyeah, let's blame the free market for that :>Oct 06 19:28
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Sosumifree market without its checks and balances only enables the already established cartels to be predatory on small businesses and on the pplOct 06 20:37
Sosumiand it's the demagogy of free market that enables public and private sector to be in cahoots with each otherOct 06 20:38
MinceRfree market without its checks and balances is not a free marketOct 06 20:38
Sosumithanks to a thing called derregulationOct 06 20:38
Sosumiit's called anarcho-capitalismOct 06 20:40
MinceRi don't think that's what it's calledOct 06 20:40
Sosumino rules, no checks and balances and joe six pack gets screwed, as usualOct 06 20:41
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sebsebseb Oct 06 20:43
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Sosumihttp://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2013/10/06/ouch_microsoft_no_longer_recommends_their_own_security_essentials_anti-virus_packageOct 06 21:31
TechrightsBot-trwww.afterdawn.com | Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own Security Essentials anti-virus package - AfterDawn  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk2n ]Oct 06 21:31
SosumilulzOct 06 21:31
Sosumiin a parallel universe: Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own operating systemOct 06 21:33
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Sosumibut ho well, AV software is kind of useless anywaysOct 06 21:36
MinceR:>Oct 06 21:36
MinceRespecially m$'sOct 06 21:36
Sosumiand symatec'sOct 06 21:36
MinceRtheir supposed anti-malware sofware stopped recognizing gator as malware when m$ was planning to buy clariaOct 06 21:36
MinceRthey are not just incompetent, they're evilOct 06 21:36
Sosumisymantec? well they're pretty badOct 06 21:37
MinceRi meant m$Oct 06 21:38
MinceRbut symantec is pretty horrible tooOct 06 21:38
SosumiM$ just likes to shoot themselves in the footOct 06 21:38
Sosumibut instead of using a handgun they use a bfg9000Oct 06 21:39
Sosumijust like the latest outlook patch broke part of the thingOct 06 21:41
Sosumior the new "puke" metro interfaceOct 06 21:42
MinceRhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/18/us-austria-water-idUSBRE98H0AG20130918Oct 06 21:49
TechrightsBot-trwww.reuters.com | Holy water in Austria unsafe to drink: researchers | Reuters  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk64 ]Oct 06 21:49
Sosumithey need to boil hell out of itOct 06 21:51
MinceR:>Oct 06 21:51
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MinceRhttp://cdn.meme.li/i/jees7.jpgOct 06 22:57
MinceRgnOct 06 23:15
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iophkhttp://www.muktware.com/2013/10/nvidia-cripples-linux-drivers-windows/14883Oct 05 09:19
TechrightsBot-trwww.muktware.com | Nvidia cripples Linux drivers because of Windows - Muktware  [ http://ur1.ca/fu7qj ]Oct 05 09:19
iophkYet another reason closed, proprietary drivers have to go.Oct 05 09:19
iophkpushing Matt Asay: http://www.forbes.com/sites/benkepes/2013/10/02/open-source-is-good-and-all-but-proprietary-is-still-winning/Oct 05 09:21
TechrightsBot-trwww.forbes.com | Open Source Is Good And All, But Proprietary Is Still Winning - Forbes  [ http://ur1.ca/fu7r5 ]Oct 05 09:21
schestowitz_bed2mehOct 05 09:41
schestowitz_bed2iophk: iny major news we missed? I am still far far behind, with thousands of unread headlinesOct 05 09:42
schestowitz_bed2*anyOct 05 09:42
schestowitz_bed2I am still not sure how to proceedOct 05 09:42
iophknot much latelyOct 05 09:42
schestowitz_bed2One option is, scrape old stuff, catch up with what's latestOct 05 09:42
schestowitz_bed2the other option is, deal with all Sept. news even a month late provided it's relevantOct 05 09:43
iophkan unarmed woman was gunned down in DC and the papers are spinning it like it was her fault.  The actions leading up to the shooting are weird but she was out of the car when it happened.Oct 05 09:43
schestowitz_bed2This increases the liklihood of identifying important news, even if it's dealt with a month lateOct 05 09:43
schestowitz_bed2Not been keeping up with NSA, CIA, drones, etc.Oct 05 09:43
iophkMaybe you can work backwards through the queue starting with the latest.Oct 05 09:43
schestowitz_bed2Not a priority right now.Oct 05 09:43
schestowitz_bed2Yes, that's what I've been doingOct 05 09:43
iophkThe items that age well will still be there when you get to them.Oct 05 09:44
schestowitz_bed2Maybe I can catch up by xmas :-)Oct 05 09:44
iophkThere's probably no way to cover it all anyway.Oct 05 09:44
schestowitz_bed2Just added some ad banners for the host of TROct 05 09:44
iophkI don't see the banners on the main page.Oct 05 09:45
iophkBTW the "latest stories" feed is still broken but you know that still..Oct 05 09:45
iophkGNU 30th got surprisingly little coverage.Oct 05 09:46
iophkI think the 25h anniversary got more.Oct 05 09:46
iophkIIRCOct 05 09:46
iophkThere's been a fair amount of discussion of the Silk Road take down.Oct 05 09:50
iophkMost of it is still speculationOct 05 09:50
iophkand all the possibilities have included the probability of "parallel construction" even if it is not named explicitlyOct 05 09:51
iophkNot named (that I see) is the role of dangerous and insecure methods like IRC in breaking the case.Oct 05 09:52
iophkI figure the ease with which it helps track people is one of the driving forces in popularizing IRC.Oct 05 09:54
iophkAlso its ephemeral nature means that any clever, insightful or informative discussion that might actually happen is lost.Oct 05 09:59
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iophkOn the web it sticks around a bit longer, usually at least until the site goes under with a new owner.Oct 05 10:07
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iophkhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/04/nsa_using_firefox_flaw_to_snoop_on_tor_users/Oct 05 10:47
TechrightsBot-trwww.theregister.co.uk | NSA using Firefox flaw to snoop on Tor users • The Register  [ http://ur1.ca/fu8bc ]Oct 05 10:47
schestowitz_bed2LOL http://25.media.tumblr.com/d07ad1926cbf2939193c10fdbd31d4f6/tumblr_msgr6pnFnM1reysmlo1_250.gifOct 05 10:53
MinceRgeekingsOct 05 13:45
gulag2013Silk Road got hit?Oct 05 13:56
gulag2013I wouldn't know anything about that, if it wasn't for Adam Curry talking about ordering drugs from there. Oct 05 13:56
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3141095Oct 05 16:02
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: NSA using Firefox flaw to snoop on Tor users http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/04/nsa_using_firefox_flaw_to_snoop_on_tor_users/ #tor #nsa #cracking #surveillanceOct 05 16:02
schestowitz_bed2"Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2The Register really sucks these days. This article is misleading and incomplete.Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2First off, the problem with the Torbundle browser was Windows only. Wired Called out Windows in article about an FBI attack on TOR networks, what's wrong with The Register these days? As Techrights noted, using TOR on Windows is Epic Failure.Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2Recently, a Windows botner doubled the number of Tor nodes. Oh yeah, they published an article about that but left out the Windows and Microsoft keywords, so they know better. Given that GCHQ's goal is to expand the number of compromised nodes, people we should suspect criminal government activity for it.Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2"Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/09/malware_culprit_fingered_in_mysterious_tor_traffic_spike/Oct 05 16:03
TechrightsBot-trwww.theregister.co.uk | Malware culprit fingered in mysterious Tor traffic spike • The Register  [ http://ur1.ca/fuady ]Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2http://techrights.org/2013/08/07/windows-with-tor/Oct 05 16:03
TechrightsBot-trtechrights.org | Using Windows With TOR is Like Wearing Makeup to Dodge CCTV | Techrights  [ http://ur1.ca/fuadz ]Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/09/freedom-hosting-fbi/Oct 05 16:03
TechrightsBot-trwww.wired.com | FBI Admits It Controlled Tor Servers Behind Mass Malware Attack | Threat Level | Wired.com  [ http://ur1.ca/fiz5d ]Oct 05 16:03
schestowitz_bed2Firefox gets a bad name for being used on Windows.Oct 05 16:04
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3141607Oct 05 16:04
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Linux was a replacement for GNU Hurd, not the other way around http://news.softpedia.com/news/Linux-Kernel-Replacement-GNU-Hurd-0-5-Released-After-16-Years-387510.shtmlOct 05 16:04
TechrightsBot-tr-> news.softpedia.com | Linux Kernel Replacement, GNU Hurd 0.5, Released After 16 Years  [ http://ur1.ca/fuae6 ]Oct 05 16:04
schestowitz_bed2"What advantages does Hurd provide over Linux?"Oct 05 16:04
schestowitz_bed2microkernel, gplv3-licensedOct 05 16:05
schestowitz_bed2iophk: http://fossforce.com/2013/10/microsoft-five-years-road/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=microsoft-five-years-roadOct 05 16:14
TechrightsBot-trfossforce.com | Microsoft Five Years Down the Road - FOSS Force  [ http://ur1.ca/fuagu ]Oct 05 16:14
schestowitz_bed2lots of nonsense thereOct 05 16:14
Sosumiin a perfect world, M$ five years down the road = filling for bankruptcyOct 05 17:07
MinceRin a perfect world, it would have never existed :>Oct 05 17:27
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schestowitz_bed2https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/386529120081182720Oct 05 18:06
TechrightsBot-tr@jmcest: Rotten Walled Garden Fruit RT @schestowitz Nvidia cripples Linux drivers bc of Windows http://t.co/iymh71eCZZ #microsoft ruins everythingOct 05 18:06
TechrightsBot-tr-> www.muktware.com | Nvidia cripples Linux drivers because of Windows - MuktwareOct 05 18:07
schestowitz_bed2https://twitter.com/PowerEnhanced/status/386530331198631937Oct 05 18:07
TechrightsBot-tr@PowerEnhanced: @schestowitz: women are permitted to exclude men, but they scream a lot when men exclude women... I endorse both options.Oct 05 18:07
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3137537Oct 05 18:08
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com reshared: "All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry."Oct 05 18:08
schestowitz_bed2"Dr Roy, Dawkins has been retreating from the 'selfish gene' ever since he first published the idea. It is an unscientific idea that doesn't prove anything."Oct 05 18:08
schestowitz_bed2The regret he has is that politicians misrepresented his work to do nasty things. The title was ill chosen.Oct 05 18:09
schestowitz_bed2"The regret he has is that politicians misrepresented his work to do nasty things. The title was ill chosen."Oct 05 18:10
schestowitz_bed2"Cameron - try looking it up."Oct 05 18:10
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3142184Oct 05 19:23
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: OpenLogic overlooks the risk of EULA and proprietary lock-in, antifeatures, back doors, etc. to make FOSS look bad http://www.openlogic.com/blog/bid/318553/Choosing-a-Scanning-Solution-The-Cost-of-a-Mis-HireOct 05 19:23
TechrightsBot-tr-> www.openlogic.com | Choosing a Scanning Solution – The Cost of a "Mis-Hire"  [ http://ur1.ca/fubkx ]Oct 05 19:23
schestowitz_bed2"With licensed commercial code, this process is usually easier, because you only need to look for the binaries provided to you by your vendor. Easier = Impossible. It is more likely that commercial software has copied copyrighted code - the profit motive. And, of course it can then be hidden easier..."Oct 05 19:23
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iophkhttp://bsdly.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-hail-mary-cloud-and-lessons-learned.htmlOct 05 20:10
TechrightsBot-trbsdly.blogspot.ca | That grumpy BSD guy: The Hail Mary Cloud And The Lessons Learned  [ http://ur1.ca/fubjk ]Oct 05 20:10
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 01:02:28 2013
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*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellOct 06 01:02
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 01:02
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 03:47:02 2013
*Now talking on #techrightsOct 06 03:47
*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellOct 06 03:47
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 03:47
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 03:55
DaemonFCThe panel of death?Oct 06 03:55
DaemonFCIsn't that what they replaced the Start Menu with in Windows 8? Oct 06 03:55
oiaohmFairly much.Oct 06 04:11
DaemonFCI don't like programs that take up my entire screen.Oct 06 04:17
DaemonFCThose new "metro" apps are worse than Windows 3.x's tiling window management.Oct 06 04:17
oiaohmDaemonFC: you saw the one of MS offering HTC free license for their Phone OS.Oct 06 04:17
oiaohmReally Windows 3.11 tiling windows management was multi application effective.Oct 06 04:20
JimmyCarterhttp://www.infowars.com/peter-schiff-warns-of-martial-law/Oct 06 04:25
TechrightsBot-trwww.infowars.com | » Peter Schiff Warns of Martial Law Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!  [ http://ur1.ca/fuemq ]Oct 06 04:25
gulag2013haven't seen Peter Schiff in a long timeOct 06 04:25
JimmyCarteri just emailed himOct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterPeter,Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterWhat's your take on over-fishing and the tragedy of commons?  In your infowars interview you advocate capitalism but don't mention any such possible drawbacks.  To me this sounded one-sided or over-simplified.Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterDo you blame the government for the problems with the previous health insurance system?  I worry that your disparaging of "liberalism" and "socialism" sends the wrong partisan message.Oct 06 04:25
JimmyCarterThanks for your remarks about the "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation the Fed is in with tapering.  That finally crystalized it for me.Oct 06 04:25
gulag2013That video is finally player. Obama supporters not know what party Obama is in? Get out of here. Oct 06 04:40
DaemonFCOne of the problems with the cost of healthcare in America is that we have two systems competing with each other.Oct 06 04:44
DaemonFCWe have a private healthcare system and two systems of insurance. Public systems that limit how many and what kind of people can get on them, and private insurance that is largely a burden on employers and on people who don't qualify for employer plans or public plans and have to pay the whole cost out of their own pocket.Oct 06 04:46
DaemonFCMost of the problems come from the private sector components.Oct 06 04:46
DaemonFCFor profit health insurance companies and hospitals that want to pay their upper management big bucks and huge bonuses.Oct 06 04:47
gulag2013I'm not that informed on the system. I know that it's the only industry that can just send you a bill without you knowing the cost before hand.Oct 06 04:47
DaemonFCIt's driving costs up because the companies and hospitals want a huge profit, and it's driving jobs out of the US because companies can set up in Canada where health insurance is not a burden on them.Oct 06 04:47
DaemonFCThat's why a lot of the vehicles we buy in the United States are actually assembled in Canada.Oct 06 04:48
DaemonFCThe auto makers have a choice between buying these expensive health insurance plans here or going to Canada where they pay a small tax that helps fund the government healthcare that all Canadians are eligible for.Oct 06 04:49
DaemonFCSo it's a small cost that they can plan for in Canada vs. a huge cost that is going up at 5-6 times the rate of overall inflation in the United States.Oct 06 04:49
DaemonFCIt probably costs them something like $8-9 here for every $1 they'd spend in Canada.Oct 06 04:49
DaemonFCSo they do business in Canada and export the vehicles to the US for sale.Oct 06 04:50
gulag2013WowOct 06 04:50
DaemonFCand the high costs and inefficiencies that were caused by the private sector spilled over and ruined the public sector health plans like Medicaid and Medicare.Oct 06 04:51
DaemonFCDoctors don't want to see Medicaid patients because they can gouge Medicare and private insurance and Medicaid only reimburses them at a low rate in comparison to their other patientsOct 06 04:52
gulag2013It sounds like a mess. They will have to come force me to pay for a system I won't use. Oct 06 04:52
DaemonFCand Medicare's problem is that it has gone on for many years where it just pays every damned bill that gets sent to it, so doctors and hospitals and drug companies conspire to send the highest bills they can send.Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCIt pays thousands of dollars for motorized scooters if they are "medically necessary".Oct 06 04:53
gulag2013YA, that sounds right. Just see who will pay it. Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCSo every old person that doesn't feel like walking anymore gets a "free" scooter.Oct 06 04:53
DaemonFCand then soon after that, they *can't* walk anymoreOct 06 04:54
DaemonFCbecause they stopped doing it and lose their abilityOct 06 04:54
DaemonFCThen when they die, the scooter doesn't have to be turned in, so the family sells them and makes money off the sale.Oct 06 04:55
DaemonFCA used scooter can go for $500-800 depending on the model.Oct 06 04:55
DaemonFCIf Medicare got it back after the patient died, they could recondition it and give it to someone else.Oct 06 04:55
gulag2013Yes indeed, Sounds very wasteful. Oct 06 04:56
DaemonFCSo they're buying a new scooter at full price each time someone's doctor orders one because they have a patient that griped about walking.Oct 06 04:57
DaemonFCThe patient wouldn't want the scooter if they had to pay for even 20% of the purchase price.Oct 06 04:57
gulag2013I always wondered if a hospital gives me a bandaid, can I just come back with a box and call it even? Oct 06 04:57
DaemonFCThe way they see it, it's just one more freebie that they're entitled to, so they might as well take it.Oct 06 04:58
DaemonFCI got billed $11,000 the last time I was in the hospital.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCA few hours in the ER.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCI wasn't even admitted into the hospital.Oct 06 05:01
DaemonFCThey call it uncompensated care or "charity" care, and then they sue the patient.Oct 06 05:02
DaemonFCThey get their money back when they garnish your wages or take your house and sell it.Oct 06 05:02
gulag2013That is really scary. I would just try to refuse care. It's so important we learn to take better care of ourselves. Pay now or pay laterOct 06 05:03
DaemonFCMedicare wouldn't be in trouble if they let anyone of any age enroll in it.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCThey'd be just like any other insurance company with a balanced risk pool.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCThe healthy people would make the system solvent.Oct 06 05:03
DaemonFCFor profit insurance is the reason Medicare and Medicaid exist.Oct 06 05:04
DaemonFCThey're there to take all the old and sick people with very high medical costs, to get them off the balance sheet of the insurance companies.Oct 06 05:05
DaemonFCThe insurance companies then get to insure mostly people that aren't going to cost them much money and will pay a huge premium.Oct 06 05:05
DaemonFCThey offload all the undesirable customers onto the public.Oct 06 05:06
gulag2013I know and it's disqusting that human health is a for profit entity. Oct 06 05:06
gulag2013It is the way it is and billions of dollars on medication that doesn't heal any disease Oct 06 05:07
oiaohmAustralia PBS setup shows a lot of flaws in medical health for profit ideas.Oct 06 05:07
oiaohmgulag2013: Evergreen of patents of medications turn up a lot as well.Oct 06 05:07
oiaohmFunny enough in Australia we have a few drugs produced in the USA for the Australian population by third party producors that cannot be sold to USA cits.Oct 06 05:08
oiaohmWhy to use the PBS in Australia drug maker has to agree after particular time to allow third parties to produce the same drug.Oct 06 05:08
gulag2013Ha, ha. I think I follow you. Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmgulag2013: competition is good Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmwhen it comes to medial drug production.Oct 06 05:09
oiaohmUSA patent system is prevent drug makers competting for low cost production.Oct 06 05:09
gulag2013Well under a lot of circumstances herbal medicine is more effective than man made drugs that hurt vital organsOct 06 05:11
gulag2013That is the way it is though, long shelf life, means no self lifeOct 06 05:12
oiaohmgulag2013: unless you have the problem here where herbal medicine does not have decent quality controls.Oct 06 05:12
oiaohmBasically herbal based medical medicine really need the same quality controls.Oct 06 05:13
gulag2013Good points, but what that was tried first. It's not an option in most. Oct 06 05:13
gulag2013Nutrition, isn't discussed Oct 06 05:14
gulag2013They won'd dare recommend that stop eating meat and dairy. There is no bad cholesterol  in plants. Oct 06 05:15
oiaohmgulag2013: depends on the person.Oct 06 05:15
oiaohmdue to my dna faults I have to eat meat.Oct 06 05:15
gulag2013You can still choose what you eat,,Oct 06 05:16
gulag2013It doesn't have to be cows eating gmo grains. It can be grass fed etc..Oct 06 05:16
oiaohmI am latcose intollerent.Oct 06 05:16
gulag2013That's not a bad thing, most of the dairy isn't good for you. Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmAnd I wish that people had looked at my diet earlier then I would not have missed like 3 years of my early schooling due to illness.Oct 06 05:17
gulag2013Oh sorry you suffered that. Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmLatcose intollernet is nastly.  Subpress imunine system.Oct 06 05:17
oiaohmNo other symtoms.Oct 06 05:17
gulag2013So they forced milk on youOct 06 05:17
oiaohmBasically I would catch any cold going and not be able to rid off it.Oct 06 05:18
oiaohmgulag2013: stupid think about being allergic at times.  You like exactly what you are allergic to.Oct 06 05:19
gulag2013Yes I agree, I have reactions to sugar and caffeine. It takes all my willpower not to consume those things. Oct 06 05:19
oiaohmNo they were not forcing milk on me.  Yes it takes all my will power not to cosume the stuff.Oct 06 05:20
gulag2013Well luckily there are more dairy alternatives coming out all the time. Oct 06 05:20
oiaohmgulag2013: there is a bacteria you can add to milk to break down the lactose.Oct 06 05:21
gulag2013Almond Milk and Coconut milks are really good for you. Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmbefore you drink it.Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmbasically get milk put bacteria in leave it 2 days in fridge then its safe to drink.Oct 06 05:21
oiaohmand particular cheeses don't contain lactose.Oct 06 05:22
gulag2013There is still the puss in dairy man. It's just not normal to be drinking another animals breast milk. We are the only animal doing that. Oct 06 05:22
oiaohmSame kind of reason.  Ie the yeast type consumed it.Oct 06 05:22
oiaohmgulag2013: You forgot cats.Oct 06 05:24
gulag2013I don't drink cat milk either, ha ha. I know what you meantOct 06 05:25
oiaohmgulag2013: cats drink other amimals milk.Oct 06 05:25
gulag2013You do notice after they are past being kittens they don't do thatOct 06 05:25
oiaohmgulag2013: even big cats.Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: even adult cats will.Oct 06 05:26
gulag2013I have never seen a grown cat nursing Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: not nursing.Oct 06 05:26
gulag2013I will take you word on it. Oct 06 05:26
oiaohmgulag2013: when they cosume pray big cats willk drink the breast milk out.Oct 06 05:27
oiaohmgulag2013: its all about extracting as much from a kill possible.Oct 06 05:27
gulag2013Will they eat the whole animal raw, and have the stomach designed for that. Oct 06 05:27
oiaohmgulag2013: tigers and some big cats love full cream milk as rewards.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmIe cattle milk.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmWhat is close to there normal pray.Oct 06 05:28
oiaohmgulag2013: the difference is volume.Oct 06 05:28
gulag2013A cows normal predator?Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmCats as adults take milk from other creatures as treaks.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: big cats.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: afica where most of the cattle breeds start the normal creature to kill them is big cats.Oct 06 05:29
oiaohmgulag2013: so yes part right abotu drinking another animals breast milk in volume is abnormal.    But there are other animals that drink other creatures milk in small volumes.Oct 06 05:31
gulag2013Thank you for reminding me, good point I have seen my cats drink milk. Oct 06 05:32
gulag2013Here int the states they have pushed dairy as being vital for our health. That simply isnt' the case. You can get all you need from plants. Oct 06 05:33
oiaohmAnd some of the milk problem is human stupidity.   A1 and A2 milk.    A1 cattle produce more milk due to a dna alteration.  But also is less human compadible.   A2 milk cattle produce less milk but is more human compadible.Oct 06 05:33
oiaohmMajority of the cattle milk on shelves is A1 milk.Oct 06 05:33
gulag2013I didn't know that. I know they boil it so it really has no nutrition left. Oct 06 05:34
gulag2013They come after Raw milk sellers Oct 06 05:35
oiaohmgulag2013: wrong on the no nutrition left.Oct 06 05:36
gulag2013What could be left, after heating it at such high tempsOct 06 05:36
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oiaohmHmm just that was odd.Oct 06 05:59
gulag2013You get kicked off the internets ?Oct 06 06:00
JimmyCarterGUIs are always doom, noone has avoided itOct 06 06:01
JimmyCarteroops wrong chanOct 06 06:01
gulag2013What are you saying Mr Carter?Oct 06 06:01
oiaohmgulag2013: no it was power distrubance of some form.Oct 06 06:01
gulag2013I got you, UPS's are great for that Oct 06 06:02
JimmyCarteri was comiserating with someone in #android-devOct 06 06:03
gulag2013Oh cool, do you code apps?Oct 06 06:03
JimmyCarterBrown outs.  Build another power plant.Oct 06 06:03
JimmyCarteryupOct 06 06:03
JimmyCarterif you have nexus7 or better you can try my gameOct 06 06:03
oiaohmgulag2013: I do have a ups.   I suspect something overheated.Oct 06 06:03
gulag2013Nice, Android market place seems like the wild westOct 06 06:03
oiaohmgulag2013: machine only had been up for 6 months.Oct 06 06:04
JimmyCarteryup, its awesomeOct 06 06:04
oiaohmgulag2013: running around 80/90 percent load.Oct 06 06:04
JimmyCarterpretty soon the feds will ruin itOct 06 06:04
gulag2013oiaohm, that's great I switched to linux and have been up 4 days straight. Oct 06 06:04
gulag2013I wish I could try you game, my nexus 7 needs a new usb connectorOct 06 06:05
oiaohmgulag2013: with pastrusised milk I have been on the recieving end on non pastraised milk.Oct 06 06:05
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oiaohmgulag2013: the bad side there are nice little illness you can get from non pastrusised milk.Oct 06 06:05
gulag2013Yes, I wasn't trying to convince you against dairy, it's a choice I made and my tummy thanks me for it. Oct 06 06:06
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough the food value is barely altered by the pastruised and non pastruised.  Please note canning of food is the same process.Oct 06 06:07
gulag2013They do some crazy stuff to the milk and cows. Big Got Milk campaign is not an accident. Oct 06 06:08
gulag2013i have had non homogenized milk. I liked that much better. Oct 06 06:09
oiaohmnon homogenized can be pastruised as well.Oct 06 06:10
oiaohmThe ammount of mixing and altering of the ratios in milk they do is insane.Oct 06 06:10
gulag2013Now I drink Soy which is really not good I hear either,Oct 06 06:11
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gulag2013They strip the baby cows from the mothers at birth, that first milk is called colostrum  I think, it's bottled and sold. The baby boy who knows what happens. Oct 06 06:13
oiaohmThere are very few soy milks I can stand to drink.Oct 06 06:18
oiaohmMost soy milks are too grainy for my mouth.Oct 06 06:19
gulag2013There are hemp, rice, almond, soy, coconut, Have you ever tried coconut  ice cream? It's pretty good. Oct 06 06:20
DaemonFCalmond milk is way better than soyOct 06 06:22
DaemonFCjust remember to get the unflavored/unsweetened stuffOct 06 06:22
gulag2013Yes, I'm trying to watch my sugar, what is your reason for unOct 06 06:22
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft seve icescream avoid like plague.Oct 06 06:23
oiaohmcoconut is nice.Oct 06 06:23
DaemonFCI don't like them dumping in the extra sugar and caloriesOct 06 06:23
gulag2013Oh thanks for the tip. I have never tried soy ice creamOct 06 06:23
DaemonFCand I don't like the vanilla flavorOct 06 06:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its the softserve form.Oct 06 06:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its in fact colder than normal icecream.Oct 06 06:24
gulag2013Yes, the vanilla is to strongOct 06 06:24
DaemonFCThe unflavored stuff is pretty much exactly like skim milk. I use it in my cereal.Oct 06 06:24
oiaohmgulag2013: so you know that icescream head ache it gets you with massive nasty.Oct 06 06:24
gulag2013I'm not sure oiaohm, but I have suffered some serious dairy ice cream stomach aches. Because I don't have a governor  I just keep eatingOct 06 06:26
oiaohmgulag2013: Neither do I normally.Oct 06 06:26
gulag2013I like the plain almond milk Oct 06 06:26
DaemonFChttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/11/25/ways-on-buying-in-markets.aspxOct 06 06:26
TechrightsBot-trarticles.mercola.com | Supermarkets Influence Your Food Shopping Choices  [ http://ur1.ca/fufb3 ]Oct 06 06:26
DaemonFC"Displaying a dollar sign on the display decreases the likelihood of you making a purchase, because it's instinctively equated with "cost" or "spending." As Lindstrom says, "Removing the sign helps the consumer sidestep the harsh reality of outstanding bills and longer-term financial concerns.""Oct 06 06:26
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft serve is about the only icescream head ache in side one cone.Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCI never really thought about that, but now that I do...Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCKroger and Walmart don't put a dollar sign on the price tag.Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCThey put stickers that say "1.76" or ".99" or "10 for 10".Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCNot "$1.76", "$0.99", or "10 for $10".Oct 06 06:28
gulag2013Huh? I have been blind to that $ either way. Now i'm curiousOct 06 06:28
DaemonFC"Larger shopping carts equate to increased spending."Oct 06 06:28
DaemonFCYeah, when our Walmart became a super Walmart, they increased the size of the carts by about 50%Oct 06 06:28
oiaohmDaemonFC: its called cost saving.Oct 06 06:29
oiaohmDaemonFC: yes the ink saved on not printing the dollar sign adds up.Oct 06 06:29
gulag2013I know the supermarket here tries to hide the good coffee that is cheaper on the very bottom shelve. The whole eye level scamOct 06 06:29
DaemonFCgulag2013, Yes. They like to put the little bags of coffee that cost like 50 or 75 cents per ounce at eye level.Oct 06 06:30
gulag2013Ha ha the ink savings as they waste thousands on flyeersOct 06 06:30
DaemonFCThey put the bulk coffee that costs less on the bottom two shelves.Oct 06 06:31
gulag2013This was Panera bread company. You have that chain rightOct 06 06:31
gulag2013Anyway they have their brand in the supermarket now for $6 for 12 ounces and it's really good, but they try to hide it. So if it doesn't sell then what.Oct 06 06:32
DaemonFCThe "gourmet" coffee has gotten ridiculous.Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013What ever happened to honest pound of anything.Oct 06 06:33
DaemonFCThey have Starbucks for $8.99 for a one pound bag.Oct 06 06:33
oiaohmgulag2013: look at there flyers they are doing the same stunt.Oct 06 06:33
DaemonFCYou can get two pounds of store brand for $5.99Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013Sure they sell 1lbs Oct 06 06:33
gulag2013I'm still a bit snobby when it comes to good coffeeOct 06 06:34
gulag2013Stunt with whatOct 06 06:34
oiaohmgulag2013: are you the level that roasts your own?Oct 06 06:34
oiaohmgulag2013: no dollar signs.Oct 06 06:34
gulag2013No, that is  a lot of work and you can screw that up if you aren't careful. i will grind beans sometimes. Oct 06 06:35
gulag2013I watched a guy at a place roast, it is really good if you can get some the first week after a roastOct 06 06:36
gulag2013Anyway, yes they spend a lot of money studying us and monitoring our purchasing habits. Sickening Oct 06 06:37
gulag2013I can't say I blame them, but I place people before money. Oct 06 06:38
gulag2013Mcdonalds and the famous free toy training little kids to be life long costumers Oct 06 06:40
gulag2013Coke and Pepsi feeding millions of gallons of corn sugar, and diabetes Oct 06 06:41
oiaohmgulag2013: you miss the caffine.Oct 06 06:41
oiaohmcaffine is not a 100 percent harmless drug.Oct 06 06:41
gulag2013I should be staying off it. I'm slowly drinking more green teaOct 06 06:41
oiaohmcaffine is most dangous when combind with suger.Oct 06 06:42
gulag2013I bet, Oct 06 06:42
gulag2013Sugar is some addictive stuff on it's own. I tried switching to stevia , yuck I can't drink that stuff. Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmIts like the drinks like redbull and mostor and so on they have caused deaths that have been documented by only minor over consumion.Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmMax ammout of redbull you should have a day is 1 can.Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmguess how many people don't obey that.Oct 06 06:43
gulag2013I know right, that stuff is dangerous. I have had those monster drinks before. Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmyet people drink 2 l of coke.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmSame ammout of active.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmThis is why coke is working on suger free versions so much.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmIe no suger no dead consumers.Oct 06 06:44
oiaohmHopefully.Oct 06 06:44
gulag2013the sugar free stuff is even worse. Why is corn syrup to expensive as a sugar sub now?Oct 06 06:45
gulag2013AspartameOct 06 06:45
oiaohmstevia is a art to handle correctly.Oct 06 06:47
gulag2013I had a real coke made with sugar cane a few months back . I was very uneasy for over an hour. Oct 06 06:47
oiaohmsuger cane suger is less adctivive than corn syrup contain froctoosOct 06 06:47
oiaohmcorn syrup is not a good replacement for suger.Oct 06 06:48
gulag2013Yes, what they don't tell you is the corn syrup is around .20 cents a pound and the government subsidizes corn. Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmgulag2013: I have grown stevia plants.Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmgulag2013: the art with stevia usage is hard because stevia alone has a horid after taste.Oct 06 06:49
gulag2013Oh cool, I wonder if it's good like that, I have had the man made white concentrated powdered stuff. I don't like itOct 06 06:50
oiaohmgulag2013: touch of honey remove after taste.Oct 06 06:50
gulag2013I bet, good idea Oct 06 06:50
oiaohmIe use stevia correctly it increases the suger taste.Oct 06 06:50
oiaohmBut you still need to put one of the real sugers in close to raw form.Oct 06 06:51
gulag2013i have some other thing called monk sugar, it's okay but tastes sort of like steviaOct 06 06:51
gulag2013Agave is sort of scamOct 06 06:52
gulag2013I'm going Vegan so I'm supposed to not eat Honey, but that seems a bit extreme. Oct 06 06:53
oiaohmhttp://national.cleanplates.com/health-nutrition/the-new-sugar-monk-fruit/Oct 06 06:53
TechrightsBot-trnational.cleanplates.com | The new "sugar" is...monk fruit! Learn the different types.Healthy Recipes and Sustainable Food  [ http://ur1.ca/fufeo ]Oct 06 06:53
oiaohmmonk fruit is a lot clearner source of natural sweetener.  gulag2013Oct 06 06:54
oiaohmgulag2013: yes simlar compounds to stevia.  No nasty after taste.Oct 06 06:54
gulag2013It's good, not perfect but betterOct 06 06:55
oiaohmgulag2013: but same thing like stevia a very small does of honey or brown suger is enough to fully fool taste buds.Oct 06 06:55
oiaohmIe brown suger with monk fruit works where it does not with stevia.Oct 06 06:56
gulag2013True, i'm an addict though, i'm trying to just cut that out, but it's super hard. Oct 06 06:56
oiaohmBasically 90 to 95 percent of the suger load can be replaced.Oct 06 06:56
oiaohm5 to 10 percent has to remain or your taste buds will pick the difference.Oct 06 06:57
gulag2013I believe that, I was off of sugar for a week and my taste buds appreciated bananas. Oct 06 06:57
oiaohmYou don't get where you were going.Oct 06 06:58
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose  bananas are high Fructose.Oct 06 06:59
TechrightsBot-tren.wikipedia.org | Fructose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaOct 06 06:59
gulag2013Yes, but i'm the camp that the fiber and minerals help the digestion and it's not the same as stripped out fructose. Oct 06 07:00
gulag2013My body is fine on fruit sugars, I could eat a bag of oranges and not crash. Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough fructose is more adictive than general suger  ie sucrose sugercane.Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmoranges are not that high in fructose.Oct 06 07:01
gulag2013I see, makes sense I love bananas. Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmfructose in high doese causes crashes like sucrose.Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmgulag2013: basically you are lining up to swap one addiction for another.Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmModeration.Oct 06 07:02
gulag2013ha ha, yes but it's real food Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmI guess you also love corn.Oct 06 07:03
oiaohmbasically you cut suger and your body gets sneaky.Oct 06 07:04
oiaohmAnd makes you crave the fructose items instead.Oct 06 07:04
gulag2013No, I barely eat corn I think it's all been contaminated by Monsanto. Oct 06 07:05
oiaohmhttp://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htmOct 06 07:05
TechrightsBot-trlowcarbdiets.about.com | Fructose - Sweet But Dangerous - The Dangers of Fructose  [ http://ur1.ca/fufh0 ]Oct 06 07:05
gulag2013What do they call that negative calories, I don't think it has much nutrition and you body doesn't even digest it. Oct 06 07:05
oiaohmgulag2013: fructose puts presure on liver.Oct 06 07:05
gulag2013I have read that. Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmYes you avoid one stack of nasty side effect and can walk straight into another.Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmModeration usage of fructose and sucrose is fine.Oct 06 07:06
oiaohmSame with other sugers.Oct 06 07:06
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 6 08:39:38 2013
*Now talking on #techrightsOct 06 08:39
*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellOct 06 08:39
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 08:39
*Cirrus_Minor (~Cirrus_Mi@unaffiliated/cirrus-minor/x-6868843) has joined #techrightsOct 06 08:42
DaemonFCThe guy called me back and offered that 2004 Crown Victoria to me for $2,500.Oct 06 08:44
DaemonFCI'm not sure I really want to get in on that though.Oct 06 08:44
DaemonFCRight off the bat, I'd have an ABS sensor to replace, an exhaust leak to fix, a transmission flush, and a blend motor issue for the heat/air conditioning system that would probably require them to take the dash apart. :POct 06 08:45
DaemonFCSo that's some serious money.Oct 06 08:45
DaemonFCThen it somehow got a chunk taken out of the front grill.Oct 06 08:46
DaemonFCSo I'd need to find a replacement grill.Oct 06 08:46
*oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)Oct 06 09:11
iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/google-now-taking-down-eight-pirate-links-every-single-second-131005/Oct 06 09:18
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Google Now Taking Down Eight ‘Pirate’ Links Every Single Second | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fug5m ]Oct 06 09:18
iophk"If Nokia had kept MeeGo, Jolla wouldn't exist"Oct 06 09:22
iophkhttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/finland-and-nokia-an-affair-to-remember/2/Oct 06 09:22
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Finland and Nokia: An affair to remember | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fug64 ]Oct 06 09:22
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schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3134661Oct 06 10:24
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You? http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/is-slackware-the-oldest-remaining-linux-distribution-right-for-you/ #slackware #gnu #linuxOct 06 10:24
TechrightsBot-tr-> www.makeuseof.com | Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You?  [ http://ur1.ca/ftyfy ]Oct 06 10:24
schestowitz_bed2"the author gets rightly put in his place for such a superficial take on Slackware"Oct 06 10:24
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/2825073Oct 06 10:25
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: OK, I guess I got #Diaspora installed and running on the server side, need SSL certificate to take it liveOct 06 10:25
schestowitz_bed2"Is this up and running yet?"Oct 06 10:25
schestowitz_bed2No, I put that aside foir now Plenty of news to catch up with first, it's of higher priority.Oct 06 10:26
*gulag2013 (~gulag2013@pool-72-93-160-86.bstnma.east.verizon.net) has joined #techrightsOct 06 10:42
schestowitz_bed2https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/3144074Oct 06 10:52
TechrightsBot-trwww.joindiaspora.com | ## Hate the "Sign in to Chrome" spyware feature of Chrome?  [ http://ur1.ca/fugr0 ]Oct 06 10:52
gulag2013I'm going to try this nice postOct 06 11:02
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014480.htmlOct 06 11:07
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/folf8 ]Oct 06 11:07
DaemonFCNvidia says they will be releasing some open documentation of their cards.Oct 06 11:07
JimmyCarteryou can trust google unless theyre subpoenaed or national security lettered, or whatever the hip feds bully with these daysOct 06 11:08
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014497.htmlOct 06 11:10
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCBOct 06 11:10
DaemonFC"While I'm personally one of the guys who wouldn't like to see a binary Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFCblob in nouveau, no matter the terms, I've read the firmware blobs Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFCdecompilation and I'm quite concerned about possible security implications."Oct 06 11:10
DaemonFClolOct 06 11:10
DaemonFCNvidia doesn't care about security. They only care about performance. Their driver also cheats. It tries to detect what you're running and apply hacks to speed up the frame rate.Oct 06 11:11
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014584.htmlOct 06 11:11
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/fugub ]Oct 06 11:11
DaemonFC"I need to retract my suggestion of Nouveau using NVIDIA'sOct 06 11:12
DaemonFCbinary-only microcode, at least until we get to a point where NVIDIAOct 06 11:12
DaemonFChas earned some trust from Nouveau in our microcode implementations."Oct 06 11:12
JimmyCarterdo they care about security performance ? ^^Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCYou don't earn trust by releasing binary-only firmware.Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCThe only purpose of binary-only firmware is to hide things.Oct 06 11:12
DaemonFCJimmyCarter, I've lost count of the number of times that Nvidia's driver has caused critical security issues. They also don't bother to patch them until someone releases a program that actually demonstrates how to exploit their driver.Oct 06 11:13
JimmyCarterpretty soon someone will hack them with their exploits for their own software like adobeOct 06 11:14
DaemonFCProprietary firmware in an otherwise open driver is better than an entirely proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:14
DaemonFCThat's the way AMD decided to go with their open source driver.Oct 06 11:14
gulag2013I'm naive, but why play with Nvidia at all ? Oct 06 11:14
JimmyCartersome people need tflopsOct 06 11:15
DaemonFCBetter hardware than AMD, but the open driver is not very useful.Oct 06 11:15
DaemonFCSo if you use Nvidia, you're going to be stuck with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:15
DaemonFCThe Nouveau driver works with my graphics card, but it is painfully slow.Oct 06 11:16
DaemonFCOn really old Nvidia hardware, it sometimes works OK compared with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 11:17
DaemonFCI think the biggest practical concern right now with Nvidia's proprietary driver is that they haven't commented on how well they plan to support Wayland or Mir.Oct 06 11:18
DaemonFChttp://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/ubuntus-controversial-mir-window-system-wont-ship-with-13-10-desktop/Oct 06 11:21
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Ubuntu’s controversial Mir window system won’t ship with 13.10 desktop | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fugvy ]Oct 06 11:21
*Guest60148 has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in)Oct 06 11:22
DaemonFCUbuntu is conducting their negotiations with Nvidia and AMD regarding Mir support behind closed doors.Oct 06 11:22
gulag2013Hmm, All I know about Mir is that it is replacing X11 windows something. How will Mir improve the performance?Oct 06 11:25
DaemonFCI don't think it will.Oct 06 11:26
gulag2013I don't understand Ubuntu's intentions with most of what they are doing. Oct 06 11:27
DaemonFCThe justification for replacing X in both Wayland and Mir's case is mostly that X does a lot of undesirable things that can't easily be fixed.Oct 06 11:27
oiaohmgulag2013: X11 is crap.Oct 06 11:35
oiaohmgulag2013: there is even talk of X12 once Wayland and Mir is in place.Oct 06 11:35
oiaohmgulag2013: List of undesirable is X11 secuirty does not work.   Lets take screen savers they are repsonsable for handing non protected userpassword.Oct 06 11:36
gulag2013I don't know, they can do what ever they wish. There was a time I was excited but they flip flop in so many directions. IOct 06 11:36
MinceRoiaohm: what happens if the screensaver crashes on other systems?Oct 06 11:37
oiaohmgulag2013: history of X11 is horble.Oct 06 11:37
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oiaohmMinceR: under Linux the desktop unlocks.Oct 06 11:38
MinceR_other systems_Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmMinceR:  Windows password dialog is handled by the login manager.Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmMinceR: on the screensaver.Oct 06 11:38
MinceRso, what if that crashes?Oct 06 11:38
oiaohmIf login manager crashes on windows you user session is terminated.Oct 06 11:39
MinceR(as for protecting passwords, there's this >> http://www.openwall.com/tcb/ _Oct 06 11:39
TechrightsBot-trwww.openwall.com | tcb - the alternative to /etc/shadowOct 06 11:39
MinceRs/_/)/Oct 06 11:39
MinceRicOct 06 11:39
oiaohmBasically failure should not be access.Oct 06 11:39
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oiaohmSome bugs Windows and Linux has.Oct 06 11:42
oiaohmLike applications able to snoop on other applications windows without requiring permission.Oct 06 11:42
oiaohmHigh secuirty OS's don't tollerate this.Oct 06 11:43
gulag2013Hmm sounds like Explorer and that knowing what you are typing in other windows. Oct 06 11:43
oiaohmgulag2013: one of the key differences of Mir and Wayland is no snooping on other applications without permission from the program controlling the screen output.Oct 06 11:46
oiaohmYep programs by default can only screenshot their own windows.Oct 06 11:46
gulag2013So that is bug in both Linux and Windows?Oct 06 11:47
oiaohmYepOct 06 11:47
oiaohmFedora is dropping userspace X11 drivers.  Or I am a super big security flaw.Oct 06 11:47
oiaohmX11 userspace drivers require access to /dev/mem that is basically raw access to the complete system memory.Oct 06 11:48
gulag2013In what version, I want to test Fedora really soonOct 06 11:48
oiaohmuserspace drivers are very old things gulag2013Oct 06 11:48
oiaohmgulag2013: like you will not be attempting to use like s3 video cards right.Oct 06 11:48
gulag2013I really don't think so.. What is S3?Oct 06 11:49
oiaohmgulag2013: old type of video cardOct 06 11:49
oiaohmverry old type of video car.Oct 06 11:49
oiaohmcardOct 06 11:49
gulag2013Oh, This laptop is three years old, I highly doubt it. Oct 06 11:50
oiaohmgulag2013: no way in hell its in there.Oct 06 11:51
oiaohmgulag2013: we are talking almost 10 years ago was the last time they were made.Oct 06 11:51
gulag2013Ha ha,  well I still plan on testing Fedora. I was thinking userspaces was Workspaces, I turned that of I don't use it. Oct 06 11:53
oiaohmX11 first was design to be fully userspace.Oct 06 11:54
oiaohmNice big security holes.Oct 06 11:54
oiaohmThen it evolved to a little kernel assisted but poorly done.Oct 06 11:55
oiaohmgulag2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_jZYDzek8   This is a good watch for even just a few minor generations back in X11 drivers issues.Oct 06 11:56
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | XDC2013: David Herrmann - DRM Security - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh2e ]Oct 06 11:56
oiaohmgulag2013: basically dri2 the last generation of X11 drivers for Linux has to be deprecated because it security flawed.Oct 06 11:57
gulag2013Okay, great I can do videos. This topic is a little hard for me to follow.  A little sad for me,  I was thinking Linux was more secure. Oct 06 11:59
oiaohmgulag2013: to be true Linux is more secure than Windows but that is serousally not hard.Oct 06 12:00
oiaohmgulag2013: but compared to high rated secuirty OS's Linux is nothing.Oct 06 12:01
oiaohmFor desktop.Oct 06 12:01
gulag2013Yes, lol sounds like windows is a very low bar Oct 06 12:01
MinceRit isOct 06 12:01
MinceRand what about macos?Oct 06 12:01
oiaohmMinceR: macos for desktop is techically a head of Linux.Oct 06 12:02
gulag2013I read they just sneak in patches, so who knows the truthOct 06 12:02
oiaohmPlease note the for desktop bit.Oct 06 12:02
oiaohmLinux on server is a different game.   Its the graphical side of Linux that has been insanely weak.Oct 06 12:02
oiaohmthe work on wayland really was a sign that people were serousally looking at the Linux desktop.Oct 06 12:03
oiaohmAnd worked out that X11 could not be fixed.Oct 06 12:03
gulag2013Windows Metrofied Server 2012. Why Why Why Oct 06 12:03
MinceRwhy does it exist or why do people use it? :>Oct 06 12:04
gulag2013Why would you add tiles to itOct 06 12:04
prurigrooiaohm: in my experience, linux has been ahead of osx graphically in quite a number of ways for quite some time-- and the ogl limitations of open source drivers were more of an issue in osx last I checkedOct 06 12:04
oiaohmprurigro: secuirty wise OS X has been ahead.Oct 06 12:05
prurigrooiaohm: graphical security?Oct 06 12:05
oiaohmprurigro: mostly because OS X did the sane thing and not use X11Oct 06 12:05
prurigrohow so?Oct 06 12:05
MinceRwhat they did is not saneOct 06 12:06
oiaohmX11 basically has no graphical secruity.Oct 06 12:06
MinceRthe gui is supposed to be a selling point yet it can't maximize windows properly and it can't handle virtual desktops properlyOct 06 12:06
MinceRthe global menu bar is a usability failureOct 06 12:06
oiaohmMinceR: from a userablity point of view I would agree OS X is not sane.Oct 06 12:06
prurigrooiaohm: in regards to what? display servers from other local display servers?Oct 06 12:06
MinceRi thought so :)Oct 06 12:06
gulag2013The maximizing windows on OSX bugs me, Oct 06 12:07
prurigroI got a mac a while back to see what the deal was and there were issues I was running into that I researched and found were essentially "problems with the osx ogl implementation" and that osx was not for gamesOct 06 12:07
prurigrobut that's not really the topicOct 06 12:07
oiaohmprurigro: Like X11 does not include a proper screensaver handling.Oct 06 12:07
oiaohmprurigro: does not include proper memory protections.Oct 06 12:08
gulag2013Ha ha, is that why I have to use caffeine to keep my videos playingOct 06 12:08
oiaohmprurigro: in fact for X11 to operate with other X11 applications you cannot setup secreen secuiryt.Oct 06 12:08
prurigroshould the display server be responsible for screensavers? memory protection I'll give you on shared servers and stuff, but you were talking about the desktopOct 06 12:08
prurigrowell its host based rightOct 06 12:08
prurigroso all or nothing at the localhost levelOct 06 12:09
oiaohmprurigro: to be correct login manager should be in charge of screensaver in a lot of ways.Oct 06 12:09
MinceRit doesn't have to be the login managerOct 06 12:09
oiaohmsystemd-logind  for wayland can run screensaver as independant instance.Oct 06 12:09
oiaohmSo screensaver dies and you have access to nothing.Oct 06 12:10
prurigrogdm does a decent job these days I've foundOct 06 12:10
oiaohmprurigro: exactly why is a login manager graphical.Oct 06 12:10
prurigroword, but you still don't think this is secure enough?Oct 06 12:10
oiaohmprurigro: you want the least possible running as root.Oct 06 12:10
DaemonFClolOct 06 12:11
oiaohmremember gdm is infact running as root.Oct 06 12:11
DaemonFCwatching Malcolm in the MiddleOct 06 12:11
DaemonFC"They have advanced textbooks, and good teachers, and all sorts of things they don't want to waste on normal kids."Oct 06 12:11
prurigrooiaohm: yeah, though if noone can remotely connect to gdm it shouldn't be an issueOct 06 12:11
oiaohmprurigro: no you are forgeting shared computers.Oct 06 12:12
oiaohmLike in libraries.Oct 06 12:12
prurigrowell I wouldn't exactly define that as a desktopOct 06 12:12
DaemonFCI hated public school. I had to go there for a couple of years and felt like I was rotting.Oct 06 12:12
prurigrothose are more along the lines of terminals, in my experienceOct 06 12:12
oiaohmprurigro: they can still be full desktop computers.Oct 06 12:12
oiaohmBasically the complete design of X11 is just flawed all over the place.Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCWhen I went back to private school, I ended up finishing three years worth of material in a year and finishing high school at the age of 15.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmLike GDM is a hack.Oct 06 12:13
prurigrosure, but you wouldn't have people staying logged in while others use themOct 06 12:13
prurigroin libraryOct 06 12:13
prurigroies*Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCI've always been one to "rip the bandaid off".Oct 06 12:13
prurigroif they were desktopsOct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: x11 was desing as a single user interface.Oct 06 12:13
DaemonFCWhen something is unpleasant, I push myself to just get it over with.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: instead of redesign it properly.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmitems like GDM were invented.Oct 06 12:13
oiaohmprurigro: remember running as root you can login to any user.Oct 06 12:14
prurigrooiaohm: X11 came along when the idea of multiple people using the same computer (that wasn't a terminal) wasn't really feasibleOct 06 12:14
oiaohmprurigro: no the first version of X11 was single user.Oct 06 12:14
prurigrooiaohm: you don't think gdm drops permissions as soon as its launched?Oct 06 12:14
oiaohmthe multi user bit was added latter.Oct 06 12:14
DaemonFCX11 is only slightly older than I am.Oct 06 12:15
DaemonFCIt hasn't aged well.Oct 06 12:15
prurigroyeah, that's what I was saying-- it's not even really multiuser now-- just separate serversOct 06 12:15
oiaohmprurigro: it cannot because there was no background server to change from user to user.Oct 06 12:15
prurigrowhat do you mean?Oct 06 12:16
MinceRif it's the first version, it's X1, not X11 :>Oct 06 12:16
oiaohmMinceR: no X11 was design as a extendable protocol.Oct 06 12:17
DaemonFC"The first truly modular disaster."Oct 06 12:17
prurigroare we on X11R7 yet? :)Oct 06 12:17
oiaohmprurigro: display managers or like KDM/GDM.  start the X11 server that is the user session.Oct 06 12:17
MinceRi seem to remember that x.org is now X11R7 or something.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: and that X11 server still runs as root.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: wayland is infact design never to be running as root.Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: all root operations are pushed back to the logind or equal.Oct 06 12:18
prurigrooiaohm: what do you suppose the gdm user and groups are on my computer for then?Oct 06 12:18
oiaohmprurigro: that allows attempted steping down.Oct 06 12:19
prurigroI'm pretty sure that's what the xserver would be run underOct 06 12:19
prurigrolike, it doesn't need root to run XOct 06 12:19
oiaohmOnly recent X11 with DRI2 got the means to run without root a little.Oct 06 12:20
prurigroweird, my system shows gdm running "systemd"Oct 06 12:21
oiaohmsystemd places other wrappers around gdm.Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFChttp://www.amazon.com/forum/politics/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1S3QSZRUL93V8&cdThread=Tx1X8DTHZCC4Y2LOct 06 12:21
prurigrohrm? what do you mean the means to run without root?Oct 06 12:21
TechrightsBot-trwww.amazon.com | Amazon.com: Customer Discussions: US Military Will Use Drones to Spy on North Korea  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh6z ]Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC"Beginning next spring, the Air Force will fly several drones near North Korean borders to gather intelligence data on the reclusive country, where an estimated 24 million people live under oppression, sealed off from the rest of the world."Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFCpfft....Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFCThey've been doing that in a country of 300 million oppressed people that are increasingly sealed off from the rest of the world for over ten years.Oct 06 12:21
DaemonFC:) Oct 06 12:21
oiaohmprurigro: only with DRI2+ drivers.Oct 06 12:21
prurigroX has always been able to run without root-- we were talking about *dmsOct 06 12:21
oiaohmprurigro: to interface with screen X11 has always required root.Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmUntil dri2Oct 06 12:22
prurigrowhat about when you logged in as your user and ran "startx"?Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmThen dri2 buffer handling was stuffed up and guessable.Oct 06 12:22
oiaohmprurigro: that is a suid bitted as rootOct 06 12:22
prurigroand X too?Oct 06 12:23
prurigroit isn't on my machineOct 06 12:23
prurigroahh, xorg is thoOct 06 12:23
prurigrowell there ya goOct 06 12:24
prurigrolearned something new :)Oct 06 12:24
oiaohmYep.Oct 06 12:25
oiaohmOr in otherwords the first secuirty hole we want by by.Oct 06 12:26
prurigroon a similar note, wayland is in serious need of full desktop support (which I hear gnome 3.10 is almost able to deliver now), but it worked quite nicely last I testedOct 06 12:26
oiaohmprurigro: gets worse when you start running more than 1 x11 session on a single video card and switching between them.Oct 06 12:26
brendynman, anyone know how to do javascript bullshit to download things begind jplayer buttons and ajax pages?Oct 06 12:26
oiaohmprurigro: like with DRI2 and beffer only one set off buffers on the video card.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmprurigro: so lets play the magic dance of not step on each other.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmDRI3 is bring render nodes and other isolation things.Oct 06 12:27
oiaohmWell and truely overdue.Oct 06 12:27
prurigrobrendyn: ajax will be exposed to everything that looks at the source once the page loads it (view source simply chooses to give ou the pre-ajax version, so grab developer tools or maybe it was firebug to view the newer sources)Oct 06 12:28
prurigrobrendyn: and then I think jplayer just has you drop the filename into its args iircOct 06 12:28
brendynprurigro: I need to do it systematically with tens of thousands of files on thousands of pages Oct 06 12:29
*brendyn promises he is up to no goodOct 06 12:29
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, I definitely had points back in the day where offscreens from one session were accidentally pasted into refreshing images on another display server session-- xgl helped a lot thereOct 06 12:29
prurigrobrendyn: hmm, I woner if wget or curl can trigger ajax...Oct 06 12:29
oiaohmprurigro: the possiblity todo that is still in all current X11 servers.Oct 06 12:29
brendyni searched google but it really didnt look promisingOct 06 12:30
brendyni could not find much interesting in inspect elementOct 06 12:30
oiaohmprurigro: basically X11 is a huge stuffed up mess.Oct 06 12:30
oiaohmprurigro: this is why X12 is being considered after wayland.  For a new remote X11 protocal with a huge stack of legacy stupidity killed.Oct 06 12:30
prurigrobrendyn: maybe use firebug to check what arguments are triggering the ajax to load new stuff, and then emulate that input using curl?Oct 06 12:31
brendynhmmm maybe, but its alright beyond my newby skillsOct 06 12:31
prurigrooiaohm: ontop of wayland or as a more use-specific platform now that the desktop people won't be complaining?Oct 06 12:32
prurigrobrendyn: that's how you learn though!Oct 06 12:32
oiaohmprurigro: wayland will be able to do remote very well using rendernodes and other things to send 3d grade graphics by VNC or RDP.Oct 06 12:32
brendynOh wow, you're completely right. I had to click to expand (yet another) html div thingy before I could see the direct linkOct 06 12:33
oiaohmprurigro: X12 will be attempt to get a more traffic compact protocol.Oct 06 12:33
brendynHowever, this still leaves the challange of making wget do itOct 06 12:33
brendynI was thinking that It could be possible with some kind of javascript bookmarklet, but i dont even know javascriptOct 06 12:33
prurigrooiaohm: oh sick-- that's actually a major fallback in the usability dept for X11; RDP style drawing, where a compressed image isn't what's required to be sentOct 06 12:34
oiaohmprurigro: RDP and VNC are both compressed image sends.Oct 06 12:34
oiaohmprurigro: virtualgl prototype with X11 was also compressed image send but it did not work well because it was hacking the local video card drivers to work.Oct 06 12:35
brendynIf i copy paste the link to wget I can download it, and i dont even need to use my login detailsOct 06 12:35
oiaohmprurigro: basically remote 3d acceated will become normal.Oct 06 12:35
prurigrobrendyn: I feel like you might have better luck with curl or something where you're speaking to the server rather than something attempting to download the html presented... though following links would be far less energy than curlOct 06 12:35
brendynbut traversing the page to get the link in the first place... :/Oct 06 12:35
oiaohmprurigro: X11 remote advantage is the means to send to client end what area of screen are of intest to applications.Oct 06 12:36
oiaohmprurigro: so clicking else were does not result in network traffic that much.Oct 06 12:36
brendynhmm ok, but where to start.Oct 06 12:36
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, that part I like too-- surely wayland could do that though since the whole 3d thing places each screen in a separate offscreenOct 06 12:37
prurigrobrendyn: I've done something similar by using sqlite to create a temporary database of links each time it happens upon one (with an if statement checking it's in the domain I want checked), not adding duplicaes, and then going through one by one each time it gets to the end of the previousOct 06 12:38
brendynholy shitOct 06 12:38
brendynwhat about http://ubuntuincident.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/scraping-ajax-web-pages/Oct 06 12:39
prurigroused that to parse a giant intranet site and extract relevant information in the header and footer of each :)Oct 06 12:39
TechrightsBot-trubuntuincident.wordpress.com | Scraping AJAX web pages (Part 1) | The Ubuntu Incident  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh9q ]Oct 06 12:39
brendynsecond option uses webkitOct 06 12:39
prurigroohh yeah, I forgot there was a cli version of webkitOct 06 12:39
brendynreckon it would be fruitful to try it?Oct 06 12:40
prurigroodds of getting it to easily give you the resulting ajax page are higher, so I'd say yes-- even if you do then have to do something fancy for a recursive scanOct 06 12:40
oiaohmprurigro: X12 also will move applications off screens into independant zones.   So different handling to share buffers.Oct 06 12:41
prurigrooiaohm: even when rendering 2d you mean?Oct 06 12:41
oiaohmprurigro: even for 2d rendering.Oct 06 12:41
prurigro(since it already does this sans memory protection in 3d)Oct 06 12:41
prurigrointerestingOct 06 12:41
oiaohmprurigro: you know X11 magic stuff.Oct 06 12:41
brendynthe website has a page full of normal html links. i follow those, and then there are 5 ajax tabs that contain different collections of text and jplayer buttons that i need to downloadOct 06 12:41
oiaohmprurigro: this is really stupid.   Over network X11 sends magic ID as plain text.Oct 06 12:42
oiaohmprurigro: X11 without ssh wrapping is open to attack so many ways its not funny.Oct 06 12:42
prurigrobrendyn: you're going for the text too eh? I guess you could just get a list of links to parse the first time, then go through and wget each of those directly with a second script, as an alternative (assuming links aren't generated for the session)Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: Like at Univistory I use to be able to snoop on anyones screen because it was not encrypted.Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: yes X11 default spec says not encrypted.Oct 06 12:43
prurigrooiaohm: they're probably relying on the networking solution being used to protect it no? like ssh?Oct 06 12:43
oiaohmprurigro: what happens if you are logged into the same source matching.Oct 06 12:44
prurigrouniversity shoulda setup their vpn with encryptionOct 06 12:44
prurigroit should be end to endOct 06 12:44
prurigroa different terminal shell shouldn't even be able to see itOct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: but its not ssh wrapping.Oct 06 12:44
prurigroyeah, but their vpnOct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: same with vpn from same host.Oct 06 12:44
oiaohmprurigro: ie traffic snooping same end.Oct 06 12:44
prurigrowouldn't each terminal be a separate end point?Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmEncrypted protocols beat VPN.Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmprurigro: histroically no.Oct 06 12:45
oiaohmprurigro: because cgroup network splitting is only recent invention and basically not used.Oct 06 12:46
prurigroI'm a firm believer that the bottom network layer should be encryptedOct 06 12:46
oiaohmI am a firm believer that what should be encrypted should be encrypted when it enters the network stack anywhere.Oct 06 12:46
prurigroword, cjdns would work, though that's too recent to be the solution used in schoolsOct 06 12:46
prurigroI actually like the idea of TRESOR on that noteOct 06 12:47
prurigrothough I don't feel like maintaining my own kernel fork of Arch'sOct 06 12:47
prurigrotresor + cjdns would be encrypted for the local machine before entering the network stack, and then encrypted the moment it does thanks to cjdnsOct 06 12:48
prurigro(the latter being encrypted for the destination)Oct 06 12:49
prurigroI suppose at that point the only potential hole would be someone on the local machine with root access tcpdumpingOct 06 12:49
brendynI think there are latency critical tasks in various areas of science etc, such that mandatory encryption screws with that a bitOct 06 12:50
prurigrowhich would be solved by X encrypting the stream, trueOct 06 12:50
prurigroI woudln't really trust a remote X session to be real time.. hahaOct 06 12:50
prurigroalso, the spec says no encryption is mandatory; oiaohm wasn't suggesting to make encryption mandatory, just remove the "you can't do that"Oct 06 12:51
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oiaohmprurigro: exactly encryption should be optionalOct 06 12:51
oiaohmprurigro: not forbinOct 06 12:52
prurigroyeah- if people want every layer of their computer encrypted they should be able toOct 06 12:52
brendynif network providers encrypt, you have no choice but to deal with the consequencesOct 06 12:52
prurigroand ideally, people could use a encryption type of their choiceOct 06 12:52
oiaohmallowing tcpdumping should not magically destroy eveyrone privacy.Oct 06 12:52
prurigrotrueOct 06 12:53
oiaohmThinking you might need to tcpdump to debug issues.Oct 06 12:53
prurigrocourse, you want password + pub/priv key crypto if you wanna be post-quantum, so hopefully they'd include thatOct 06 12:53
prurigrono sense in encrypting if your packets can be opened up in a couple yearsOct 06 12:54
prurigrowell, a sense, but less of one than keeping your info secure for the foreseeable futureOct 06 12:54
oiaohmprurigro: couple of years might be enough secuirty.Oct 06 12:55
oiaohmLike to prevent insider trading.Oct 06 12:55
oiaohmprurigro: encrypted is a question of are the objectives.   Not all encryption has to have a long life.Oct 06 12:58
prurigrotrue, it depends what you're protecting ehOct 06 13:02
*rysiek|pl is now known as ysio|plOct 06 13:02
prurigroI'd rather not need to think how long I need something hidden for (if at all) for some more generic things like remote desktop thoughOct 06 13:03
brendyncomputers are probably the most frustrating thing in the universeOct 06 13:12
DaemonFCWhat the hell is up with edmunds.com?Oct 06 13:12
prurigros/frustrating/awesomeOct 06 13:13
DaemonFCI went to look at the reliability rating for the Ford Freestar, and it lists "no major problems".Oct 06 13:13
DaemonFCBut it seems like anyone that has actually owned one reports that the transmission burns out about every 60,000 miles and they have other issues as well.Oct 06 13:13
DaemonFCThe engine seems to be the only good thing on the van (figures, since it's the same one they put on the F-150).Oct 06 13:14
iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-founder-asks-danish-authorities-to-drop-hacking-case-131006/Oct 06 13:14
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay Founder Asks Danish Authorities to Drop Hacking Case | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhgq ]Oct 06 13:14
DaemonFCFord recalled a few hundred thousand of them to fix the transmission issue, but people that were paying to have the transmission repaired before the recall were paying about $2,800 for a rebuild.Oct 06 13:15
iophk“It would be remarkable if the Danes bring Gottfrid to court in spite of  the Swedish judgment. It would mean, in principle, that one country  after another could do this to him despite the acquittal,”Oct 06 13:15
DaemonFCAs far as I can tell, Ford didn't recall the one that I was looking at, but I still don't want to risk any of my money on it.Oct 06 13:15
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brendynprurigro: i wonder if i could do it with emacs lol by loading the page to it, opening the js bullshit and then using macros to eat up the html and download stuffOct 06 13:39
prurigrobrendyn: why on earth would you use emacs for that? haha, grep and sed should be plentyOct 06 13:40
brendynbecause emacs can do everythingOct 06 13:40
brendynim still trying to figure out how to just open the god damn pageOct 06 13:40
prurigroyeah, but grep and sed can be loaded into a scriptOct 06 13:40
prurigroonce you get that, if you can output the text to your screen you're setOct 06 13:41
brendynIf I can actually get the generated html, then everything is downhill from thereOct 06 13:41
prurigrogrep -o -e is your friend (-o only returns the part that matches and -e is for regex)Oct 06 13:41
brendynah didnt know thatOct 06 13:41
prurigroso like \"http:\/\/domain[^\"]*\" or something, then snip the quotes with sedOct 06 13:42
prurigroor cutOct 06 13:42
brendynI'll do that later. Currently I just want to figure out how to get through the javascriptOct 06 13:42
brendynive managed to log in to the site with wget and save cookiesOct 06 13:42
prurigrolol, not sure wget can handle ajax tho-- if you're not using that webkit thingOct 06 13:43
brendynthe internet tells me i cant do itOct 06 13:43
prurigrooh well, I'd trust the internet thenOct 06 13:43
brendyn;(Oct 06 13:43
brendynnot sure how to use webkitOct 06 13:43
brendyni wonder can i get to a login site with that tooOct 06 13:43
prurigroyou can almost definitely pass parametersOct 06 13:44
prurigroits webkitOct 06 13:44
brendynhow does one click an imaginary button :)Oct 06 13:45
brendynsorry but i just really fucking hate solving these problems so i have to ask for lots of helpOct 06 13:47
prurigrobrendyn: the button likely triggers a function or post that you can scriptOct 06 13:56
brendynyeahOct 06 14:00
brendynim trying to figure out logging to the site with phantomjsOct 06 14:00
brendynanyway i have to sleep so ill try it laterOct 06 14:04
brendynthanksOct 06 14:04
prurigrohaha good luck!Oct 06 14:06
prurigrociaoOct 06 14:06
iophkhttp://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/10/uk-debuts-first-open-standard.htmlOct 06 14:13
TechrightsBot-trwww.computerweekly.com | UK debuts first open standards with fanfare of kazoos - Public Sector IT  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhyy ]Oct 06 14:13
iophk"The ICT Strategy said document formats would be in the first tranche of compulsory open standards."Oct 06 14:16
iophkbut how far did they really get?Oct 06 14:16
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DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCAJ8ULnaIOct 06 15:02
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube Scam Caught on Tape! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui6v ]Oct 06 15:02
DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_626867&feature=iv&src_vid=wiCAJ8ULnaI&v=Pf6KY6rrqYUOct 06 15:12
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube still scamming customers! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui8i ]Oct 06 15:12
DaemonFCNobody should do an "engine flush".Oct 06 15:12
DaemonFCeverOct 06 15:12
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*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Oct 06 18:16
Sosumihum, George Galloway, the guy that was for the "Arab Spring" even through it was just another CIA masterminded eventOct 06 18:44
Sosumito kick "ditactors" who weren't playing ball with the USOct 06 18:44
Sosumiso now, thx to the arab spring we have Libya turned into safe heaven for Al-CIAeda,Oct 06 18:46
qu1j0t3right, we should certainly blame GG for that.Oct 06 18:46
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SosumiTunisia into a meet the new boss, same or worst than the previous oneOct 06 18:46
SosumiEgipt and Syria got lucky after the general Sisi couped MorsiOct 06 18:47
Sosumiotherwise with Morsi and his british subservient Nuts Brotherhood we'd have got an egyptian incurssion into SyriaOct 06 18:48
Sosumiso yeah Georgie boy is now saving his dirty face, but just like Farage, no breaking, no breaking of the money power of the city of londonOct 06 18:51
Sosuminot to mention the whole free market demagogy, yeah derregulation so the big cartels can come and rape everyone's walletOct 06 18:53
Sosumigot to love them all, Ron Paul, Farage, Georgie boy, Fat Tony...Oct 06 18:55
Sosumiall work in different ways but they're all letalOct 06 18:55
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MinceRyeah, let's blame the free market for that :>Oct 06 19:28
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Sosumifree market without its checks and balances only enables the already established cartels to be predatory on small businesses and on the pplOct 06 20:37
Sosumiand it's the demagogy of free market that enables public and private sector to be in cahoots with each otherOct 06 20:38
MinceRfree market without its checks and balances is not a free marketOct 06 20:38
Sosumithanks to a thing called derregulationOct 06 20:38
Sosumiit's called anarcho-capitalismOct 06 20:40
MinceRi don't think that's what it's calledOct 06 20:40
Sosumino rules, no checks and balances and joe six pack gets screwed, as usualOct 06 20:41
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sebsebseb Oct 06 20:43
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Sosumihttp://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2013/10/06/ouch_microsoft_no_longer_recommends_their_own_security_essentials_anti-virus_packageOct 06 21:31
TechrightsBot-trwww.afterdawn.com | Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own Security Essentials anti-virus package - AfterDawn  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk2n ]Oct 06 21:31
SosumilulzOct 06 21:31
Sosumiin a parallel universe: Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own operating systemOct 06 21:33
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Sosumibut ho well, AV software is kind of useless anywaysOct 06 21:35
MinceR:>Oct 06 21:35
MinceRespecially m$'sOct 06 21:36
Sosumiand symatec'sOct 06 21:36
MinceRtheir supposed anti-malware sofware stopped recognizing gator as malware when m$ was planning to buy clariaOct 06 21:36
MinceRthey are not just incompetent, they're evilOct 06 21:36
Sosumisymantec? well they're pretty badOct 06 21:37
MinceRi meant m$Oct 06 21:38
MinceRbut symantec is pretty horrible tooOct 06 21:38
SosumiM$ just likes to shoot themselves in the footOct 06 21:38
Sosumibut instead of using a handgun they use a bfg9000Oct 06 21:39
Sosumijust like the latest outlook patch broke part of the thingOct 06 21:41
Sosumior the new "puke" metro interfaceOct 06 21:42
MinceRhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/18/us-austria-water-idUSBRE98H0AG20130918Oct 06 21:49
TechrightsBot-trwww.reuters.com | Holy water in Austria unsafe to drink: researchers | Reuters  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk64 ]Oct 06 21:49
Sosumithey need to boil hell out of itOct 06 21:51
MinceR:>Oct 06 21:51
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MinceRhttp://cdn.meme.li/i/jees7.jpgOct 06 22:57
MinceRgnOct 06 23:15
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MERGE
Sosumitwo companies that I'd enjoy watching them crash to the ground and burnOct 05 16:44
MinceRso would iOct 05 16:45
cubezzzno, DEC was just slowOct 05 16:56
cubezzztrying to sell 70's era tech in the 80'sOct 05 16:57
cubezzzbut they gave use PDP's which is coolOct 05 16:57
cubezzzs/use/us/Oct 05 16:57
cubezzzsome of the DEC stations were really slow, like 286 slowOct 05 16:58
cubezzzso the cheap x86 PCs took overOct 05 16:58
Sosumiyeah, but one of the key guys from DEC came to M$Oct 05 17:44
Sosumiand from that NT was bornOct 05 17:44
MinceRCutler?Oct 05 17:44
SosumiI guessOct 05 17:45
MinceRwasn't he given instructions that completely destroyed the point of the design? :>Oct 05 17:45
Sosumihow so?Oct 05 17:46
MinceRthings like putting the window manager in the kernel "because it will be faster" (it wasn't)Oct 05 17:46
MinceRbreaking the separation between subsystemsOct 05 17:46
Sosumiwait, NT has the window manager built into the kernel?Oct 05 17:47
MinceRsomething like thatOct 05 17:47
SosumilawlOct 05 17:47
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Sosumihttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Windows_2000_architecture.svgOct 05 17:55
Sosumiyeah it is thereOct 05 17:55
MinceRand they have the gall to use the word "microkernel" in the diagramOct 05 17:57
MinceRmaybe in the microsoft language, "micro" stands for "bloated beyond all repair"Oct 05 17:57
Sosumiwell, apple also calls XNU microOct 05 17:57
MinceRtwo sides of the same coinOct 05 17:58
SosumiyeahOct 05 17:58
DaemonFCThey've been pushing a lot of things out of the kernel in recent Windows releases.Oct 05 17:58
DaemonFCSome of it they had to do to make their DRM work better.Oct 05 17:58
DaemonFC:POct 05 17:58
MinceRthat's niceOct 05 17:58
MinceRmaybe winblows will be Ready For The Desktop in 2030Oct 05 17:59
MinceR:>Oct 05 17:59
DaemonFCYou can't reliably kill the graphics and sound drivers if they're in the kernel.Oct 05 17:59
MinceRwho knows maybe they'll rip the USB stack out of FreeBSDOct 05 17:59
MinceRs/ws/ws,/Oct 05 17:59
SosumilolOct 05 17:59
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DaemonFChttp://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/east_boston/2011/08/in_east_boston_the_last_voyage.htmlOct 05 18:16
TechrightsBot-trwww.boston.com | Your Town - Boston.com  [ http://ur1.ca/fud0k ]Oct 05 18:16
DaemonFCThey spent $100,000 trying to restore the ship. Then in 2008, they found a homeless man living in it and made him leave, so the guy came back and sabotaged the ship.Oct 05 18:17
DaemonFCObama is now threatening people on Social Security.Oct 05 18:20
DaemonFCHe's saying that retirement checks won't go out next month.Oct 05 18:20
SosumiObozo could just execute an executive order demmanding all gov agencies essentialOct 05 18:21
Sosumiand bypass congressOct 05 18:21
DaemonFCHe should first declare that everything is essential.Oct 05 18:21
MinceRhe doesn't have the guts for thatOct 05 18:21
Sosumior maybe he's just playing politricksOct 05 18:22
DaemonFCThen he should declare that the debt ceiling is unconstitutional and ignore it.Oct 05 18:22
DaemonFCThe debt ceiling is unconstitutional and invalid.Oct 05 18:22
DaemonFCCongress is obligated to pay for everything it enacts, under the fourteenth amendment.Oct 05 18:22
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DaemonFCIf he did that, then the Republicans would be unable to threaten a government shutdown or a default ever again.Oct 05 18:23
SosumiyeahOct 05 18:24
DaemonFCThey could go back to doing little or nothing and it wouldn't matter.Oct 05 18:24
DaemonFCThe only constitutionally valid way for Congress to refuse to pay for something is by voting to repeal it and then having the President sign the bill that repeals it.Oct 05 18:25
DaemonFCOtherwise it should be funded indefinitely.Oct 05 18:25
DaemonFCNo president has ever challenged the constitutionality of the debt ceiling, We never even had one until 1917.Oct 05 18:26
DaemonFCTheir lies about the Social Security lock box are revealed when this happens.Oct 05 18:27
DaemonFCThey claim that there's close to three trillion dollars set aside for Social Security, but then they can't actually pay anybody unless Congress authorizes more debt.Oct 05 18:28
DaemonFCThose treasury bills that Social Security has are supposed to be payable upon demand.Oct 05 18:28
Sosumiwell, they were the guys that were all ready to "bomb, bomb, bomb" Syria and IranOct 05 18:29
DaemonFCThey're saying that without the ability to take on more debt, there's nothing to pay those T-bills with.Oct 05 18:29
DaemonFCSo they reveal the truth. The US government is a debt machine and without the ability to take on more debt every month, nothing can be paid.Oct 05 18:29
Sosumiyep, just like pretty much every govOct 05 18:29
JimmyCarterhttp://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/looting-the-pension-funds-20130926Oct 05 18:30
TechrightsBot-trwww.rollingstone.com | Looting the Pension Funds: How Wall Street Robs Public Workers | Politics News | Rolling Stone  [ http://ur1.ca/fud3e ]Oct 05 18:30
DaemonFCSosumi, Yeah. That's just messed up. "Sorry folks, there's no money. Unless we want to start another war."Oct 05 18:30
DaemonFC"Then there's money!"Oct 05 18:30
DaemonFCThey keep talking about deficit reduction and somehow at the same time they talk about taking on billions more in spending to bomb Syria.Oct 05 18:31
MinceRif the debt keeps growing forever, then it's not being run properly, imoOct 05 18:31
Sosumiwell, money for the big boys that isOct 05 18:31
JimmyCarterwont grow foreverOct 05 18:31
JimmyCarterdefinite limits to status quo of borrowing propsperity from futureOct 05 18:31
DaemonFCWell, it can.Oct 05 18:31
DaemonFCAs long as the money supply keeps growing and creditors tolerate that.Oct 05 18:32
Sosumiit'll end up blowing in everyone's faceOct 05 18:32
JimmyCarterusa currently 73% debt-to-gdp ratio says CBOOct 05 18:32
Sosumiportugal currently at 123% and rising :POct 05 18:34
DaemonFCThat's what the bankers want.Oct 05 18:34
DaemonFCThey want endless government red ink.Oct 05 18:34
SosumiyeahOct 05 18:34
JimmyCarterthe federal income is about 10% of gdpOct 05 18:34
DaemonFCEvery year, the public grows more indebted to bankers for programs that could easily be paid for by slight tax increases on the wealthy.Oct 05 18:35
JimmyCarterso debt is currently at approx 7x federal incomeOct 05 18:35
Sosumibut you do know the wealthy put their money in trustsOct 05 18:35
JimmyCarteranalogoys to someone with 100k/yr job being 700k in debtOct 05 18:35
Sosumior create non profit foundationsOct 05 18:35
JimmyCarteranalogousOct 05 18:36
DaemonFCfirst comes the debt bombOct 05 18:36
DaemonFCthen comes the public pension lootingOct 05 18:36
DaemonFCthen comes the taxation bombOct 05 18:36
Sosumiso, increasing tax on the wealthy = killing middle classOct 05 18:36
Sosumialso yes, pension funds raiding and bail insOct 05 18:37
JimmyCarteryeah just like a credit card company, lenders are happy to collect interestOct 05 18:37
DaemonFCWell, it reminds me of a credit card company that says you have a $5,000 limit.Oct 05 18:37
DaemonFCThen when you get close to that, they up it to $10,000, then $20,000.Oct 05 18:37
JimmyCarterbut lenders are anyone and everyone who buys us bondsOct 05 18:37
SosumiexactlyOct 05 18:37
DaemonFCThe only time they stop increasing your limit is when they think that your ability to make the minimum payment (which doesn't get you out of debt) will be threatened.Oct 05 18:39
DaemonFCJimmyCarter, Well, it does matter who the creditors are.Oct 05 18:39
DaemonFCObviously, you want your own citizens holding your public debt.Oct 05 18:39
DaemonFCThen it becomes a transfer of funds instead of bleeding money out to foreign citizens and governments.Oct 05 18:40
DaemonFCIf your own citizens are earning the interest, then it's likely that they're going to reinvest that interest into the domestic economy at some point, in some way.Oct 05 18:41
JimmyCarteryeahOct 05 18:48
DaemonFChttp://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/10/03/remarks-president-government-shutdownOct 05 18:48
TechrightsBot-trwww.whitehouse.gov | Remarks by the President on the Government Shutdown | The White House  [ http://ur1.ca/fud6m ]Oct 05 18:48
DaemonFCThat's why everyone should save back some cash.Oct 05 18:48
DaemonFCAt least enough to get them through a couple of months.Oct 05 18:49
DaemonFCSocial Security checks may not go out next month.Oct 05 18:49
DaemonFCBut they'd probably work something out to where people get a double check in December or something.Oct 05 18:49
DaemonFCBut a lot of good that does if you run out of food and can't pay the rent in November.Oct 05 18:50
JimmyCarterForeign governments and investors hold 48% of the nation's public debt. The next largest part (21%) is held by other governmental entities, like the Federal Reserve and state and local governments. Fifteen percent is held by mutual funds, private pension funds, savings bonds or individual Treasury notes. The rest (16%) is held by businesses, like banks, and insurance companies and a mish-mash of trusts, businesses and investors. Oct 05 18:50
DaemonFCSocial Security alone holds over three trillion dollars.Oct 05 18:52
DaemonFCGuess who takes it up the tailpipe first when the government defaults.Oct 05 18:52
DaemonFCHint: Not the banksters.Oct 05 18:52
DaemonFCThere's another simple explanation for why the government just doesn't tax enough to run its programs.Oct 05 18:53
DaemonFCThe programs are popular, but the taxes aren't.Oct 05 18:53
DaemonFCBy running deficits, it can run popular programs while keeping taxes low (for now).Oct 05 18:53
DaemonFCThe entities that the government borrows from are happy to enable this because they keep getting their interest payments.Oct 05 18:54
DaemonFCThe program cuts and tax increases will take decades to pan out.Oct 05 18:54
DaemonFCand nobody who is in office right now will be there when that happens. So they have no reason to care.Oct 05 18:55
DaemonFCThe only collateral a government has in obtaining loans is the promise to raise taxes later.Oct 05 18:55
MinceRsee, the debt ceiling is not the issue :>Oct 05 18:57
DaemonFCIt is for the moment.Oct 05 18:58
DaemonFCMinceR, It's like saying that you'll have the triple baconator now so you won't starve, and don't worry about that massive heart attack.Oct 05 18:58
DaemonFCThat's thirty years from now.Oct 05 18:58
MinceR:>Oct 05 18:59
MinceRthe issue is all that spending that caused the debt to rise that highOct 05 18:59
JimmyCartera default will trigger credit rating downgrades and interest rate hikes that will crush the sputtering economyOct 05 18:59
DaemonFCYeah. It's an immediate concern.Oct 05 18:59
JimmyCarterthats one of the purported ulterior motives for all the fed's open market operations: keeping interest rates low to keep interest payments down on the us debtOct 05 19:00
DaemonFCIf they'd stop giving the military and the black budget spy programs so much money, there wouldn't be a deficit.Oct 05 19:00
MinceRindeedOct 05 19:01
JimmyCarterbut you gotta die somehowOct 05 19:02
DaemonFCGovernments don't typically "die" as such.Oct 05 19:02
DaemonFCThey can exist indefinitely.Oct 05 19:02
DaemonFCI did like Jon Stewart's proposal.Oct 05 19:05
DaemonFCRun up as much debt as we can and then fake our own deaths.Oct 05 19:05
DaemonFCThat actually is possible.Oct 05 19:05
DaemonFCA debt crisis could cause a government to disband and you can end up with a new government that claims it won't be held responsible for the former government's debt.Oct 05 19:06
DaemonFCIn places where that happens frequently, they often have trouble getting anyone to give them loans in their own currency.Oct 05 19:07
JimmyCarteri just hope twitter has a good ipo before the sky fallsOct 05 19:08
MinceRwhy?Oct 05 19:08
JimmyCarterpersonal financial interest ;)Oct 05 19:09
MinceR:)Oct 05 19:09
DaemonFCThis is kind of silly though. The Republicans are shutting down the government in protest of a law that will reduce deficits.Oct 05 19:11
DaemonFCIn the name of reducing deficits.Oct 05 19:11
JimmyCarteralso costs money to start/shutdown govOct 05 19:11
MinceRin other words, a typical republican thing to doOct 05 19:11
DaemonFCWell, for one thing, Obamacare fixed Medicare Part D.Oct 05 19:11
JimmyCarteralso a law that already voted on, already had referendum election on, etcOct 05 19:11
DaemonFC75% of its spending as enacted by Republicans was deficit spending.Oct 05 19:12
JimmyCarteri believe obama when he says he cant allow precedent of minority hijackingOct 05 19:12
JimmyCarterunfortunately the other side in this chicken contest believes jesus is a magical cartoonOct 05 19:12
DaemonFCI think there's going to be a lot of enraged voters that take it out on the Republicans in next years elections.Oct 05 19:12
MinceRi don't believe obama even when he asks a question.Oct 05 19:13
DaemonFCThey're making a lot of people very angry at them.Oct 05 19:13
DaemonFCIncluding me.Oct 05 19:13
MinceRhe told a bit too many lies recently.Oct 05 19:13
DaemonFCI could see them losing 18 House seats, or more.,Oct 05 19:13
DaemonFCThe Democrats will probably be running the House again starting January 2015.Oct 05 19:13
DaemonFCEspecially if Social Security payments are delayed because of them.Oct 05 19:14
DaemonFCerr, the Republicans I meanOct 05 19:14
MinceR:)Oct 05 19:14
JimmyCarteri hope youre rightOct 05 19:14
DaemonFCOld people don't like it when their retirement checks are threatened.Oct 05 19:14
Sosumijust let the republican party be the engine of it's own destructionOct 05 19:14
DaemonFCThey'll vote out whoever they think is responsible.Oct 05 19:14
JimmyCarterboehnor said he wouldnt let debt ceiling expire.Oct 05 19:14
MinceRif it's destroyed, will a non-republicrat party emerge as second choice?Oct 05 19:15
JimmyCarterso he may do something at last minute that spells changes for gop status quoOct 05 19:15
Sosumiand democrats split between a wall st and populist factionOct 05 19:15
JimmyCartersuch as simply allowing a vote!  where minority republicans will side with dems to reopenOct 05 19:15
DaemonFCYeah, there's probably going to be a bill that gets passed by all the Democrats and a handful of Republicans.Oct 05 19:15
JimmyCarterand then the tea party will call for boehnors headOct 05 19:15
DaemonFCThe Tea Party will get thrown under the bus.Oct 05 19:15
JimmyCarterthey want someone who will historically default on debt Oct 05 19:15
Sosumiho the pee party....Oct 05 19:16
DaemonFCI have one of the worst "Representatives" in the entire country.Oct 05 19:16
DaemonFCMarlin StutzmanOct 05 19:16
DaemonFCI didn't vote for him.Oct 05 19:16
JimmyCarterhes not on my radarOct 05 19:16
DaemonFCOf course, with the way the state Republicans drew the districts, it's not like it mattered.Oct 05 19:16
DaemonFCHe got twice as many votes as the Democrat.Oct 05 19:16
JimmyCarterboehnor, mcconnel, meadows, cruz, ryan, Oct 05 19:17
SosumiMerlin the StuntmanOct 05 19:17
JimmyCarterbachmanOct 05 19:17
JimmyCarterdifficult to compete w these for title of worst representativeOct 05 19:17
DaemonFCPaul Ryan and Michelle Bachmann are more vulnerable.Oct 05 19:17
DaemonFCBachmann won her last election with a very slim margin.Oct 05 19:17
DaemonFCShe spent some time after that trying to keep a low profile.Oct 05 19:18
DaemonFCBut she's back out there saying dumb things again, so hopefully she gets noticed.Oct 05 19:18
JimmyCarterwell go knock on doors and convince your neighbors to change mindOct 05 19:18
DaemonFCMy neighbors are not impressed with the Republicans right now.Oct 05 19:18
JimmyCarteri suck at communicating w republicansOct 05 19:18
DaemonFCand they are in their 80s and 90s mostly.Oct 05 19:18
DaemonFCObamacare reduced their Medicare costs, and now they're afraid that the law will get repealed and their costs will go back up.Oct 05 19:19
DaemonFCOf course, I think it's safe to say that the Medicare reforms were designed to do that.Oct 05 19:19
MinceRso, are they like "we're not impressed with the republicans right now but we'll be damned if we let the democrats win!"?Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCwhoaOct 05 19:20
DaemonFClightning right over my houseOct 05 19:20
MinceR:)Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCThis isn't good.Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCIf the power doesn't go out, Comcast will.Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCThey tend to go down for a day or two if the wind blows.Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCAnd of course, there are never any bill credits.Oct 05 19:20
DaemonFCAccording to the weather channel, there's going to be a thunderstorm going all night and all day tomorrow.Oct 05 19:21
MinceR:(Oct 05 19:21
DaemonFCWhenever this happens, the river rises and goes right through my back yard.Oct 05 19:21
DaemonFCIt's kind of scary.Oct 05 19:21
MinceRit can't be good living right next to a riverOct 05 19:22
DaemonFCI mean like 20-25 feet from my house.Oct 05 19:22
DaemonFCMinceR, That's one reason why the rent is cheap here.Oct 05 19:22
MinceRicOct 05 19:22
DaemonFCIt has a history of rising and flooding out some of the apartments.Oct 05 19:22
DaemonFCI'm actually pretty lucky.Oct 05 19:22
DaemonFCI live right on top of the hill.Oct 05 19:23
DaemonFCI don't think my apartment has ever been flooded out. Oct 05 19:23
DaemonFCThe one right next door to me has.Oct 05 19:23
DaemonFCIt is pouring outside.Oct 05 19:24
DaemonFCI can't even see across the street.Oct 05 19:24
MinceRluckily, my part of the (sad excuse for a) city i live in is well above the highest flood we've ever hadOct 05 19:24
MinceR(during the existence of the city, that is)Oct 05 19:24
MinceRi can't trust the nazis or the commies to protect me from the flood (or anything else, for that matter)Oct 05 19:25
DaemonFCThe river is usually only a few feet deep.Oct 05 19:25
DaemonFCYou can easily see the bottom of it.Oct 05 19:25
DaemonFCBut when it rains for several days, it gets pretty deep and turbulent.Oct 05 19:25
DaemonFCIf this keeps up, Dave will probably call and ask me to come over and help him pump out the water from their basement.Oct 05 19:26
DaemonFC:POct 05 19:26
DaemonFCTheir basement flooded the last time it rained like this, and I figured out why.Oct 05 19:26
DaemonFCThe last owners of the house had this fucking stupid idea for how to landscape.Oct 05 19:27
DaemonFCThey put three layers of landscape bricks around the house, and sloped the enclosed area towards the house.Oct 05 19:27
DaemonFCSo I went outside and dug up all of the bricks.Oct 05 19:27
MinceR:)Oct 05 19:28
DaemonFCIt took me about a day to do that and remove all of the river rocks and lay down a new layer of dirt.Oct 05 19:28
DaemonFCThey called out for some estimates and they got quoted at almost a thousand dollars.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCSo I ended up doing it.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCMy credit is shot because of some medical bills.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCI know what they're going through.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCThey've got all the same problems I do and more.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCThe IRS is after them too.Oct 05 19:29
DaemonFCLuckily I don't have that problem.Oct 05 19:30
DaemonFCThe IRS can do things to you that nobody else can do.Oct 05 19:30
DaemonFCIt's like owing child support only worse.Oct 05 19:30
DaemonFCThey'll put liens on all your property.Oct 05 19:30
DaemonFCYou won't even be able to sell your stuff to pay them.Oct 05 19:31
DaemonFCThey have the "honor" of being in that "sweet spot".Oct 05 19:31
DaemonFCEnough money to tax and not enough money to fight the IRS and win.Oct 05 19:31
DaemonFCThe IRS pretty much leaves rich people alone.Oct 05 19:32
DaemonFCThey have enough to hire accountants and tax lawyers and they can jam the IRS up for years and end up getting settlements for less than half of what they owe.Oct 05 19:32
DaemonFCSo they mostly go after the middle class.Oct 05 19:32
DaemonFCThere's this "tax cut logic" that's really perverse that the Republicans bring out every time they call for "tax reform".Oct 05 19:33
DaemonFCMinceR, It basically goes something like this....Oct 05 19:33
DaemonFC"We have to lower the tax rate on the rich so they won't bother trying to get out of it."Oct 05 19:33
DaemonFC"The cuts will pay for themselves!"Oct 05 19:33
DaemonFCThey never bring up the other argument. "Make them pay their taxes."Oct 05 19:34
DaemonFCIt does work, kind of. The Bush Tax Cuts did increase the amount of taxes collected from the rich. The more straightforward approach that would get them even more money is to keep the higher rates and reduce their appeal options.Oct 05 19:36
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MinceRgnOct 05 20:13
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oiaohmBoy MS is getting desprate with the HTC deal being talked about.Oct 05 20:33
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DaemonFChttp://www.infowars.com/civil-disobedience-americans-breach-barricades-around-lincoln-memorial/Oct 05 20:59
TechrightsBot-trwww.infowars.com |  Civil Disobedience: Americans Breach Barricades Around Lincoln Memorial Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!  [ http://ur1.ca/fudvf ]Oct 05 20:59
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Sosumihttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-10-05/multiple-expansion-dream-overOct 05 21:24
TechrightsBot-trwww.zerohedge.com | Is The Multiple-Expansion "Dream" Over? | Zero Hedge  [ http://ur1.ca/fue0t ]Oct 05 21:24
SosumiI wish my printer never runned out of paper tooOct 05 21:25
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DaemonFC"One woman was having so many problems [trying to log on to the healthcare exchange] that finally the NSA guy that was spying on her broke in and suggested control alt delete." -Bill MaherOct 05 22:40
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DaemonFCIf the health insurance exchange crashes one more time they're going to have to stop calling it Obamacare and start calling it Microsoft Windows.Oct 05 22:44
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 05 22:46
DaemonFCI tried to create an account and got a page full of gibberish.Oct 05 22:46
DaemonFCIt was just like that time I tried using Internet Explorer on a standards-compliant web page. Oct 05 22:46
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DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 05 22:55
DaemonFCThe panel of death?Oct 05 22:55
DaemonFCIsn't that what they replaced the Start Menu with in Windows 8? Oct 05 22:55
oiaohmFairly much.Oct 05 23:11
DaemonFCI don't like programs that take up my entire screen.Oct 05 23:17
DaemonFCThose new "metro" apps are worse than Windows 3.x's tiling window management.Oct 05 23:17
oiaohmDaemonFC: you saw the one of MS offering HTC free license for their Phone OS.Oct 05 23:17
oiaohmReally Windows 3.11 tiling windows management was multi application effective.Oct 05 23:20
JimmyCarterhttp://www.infowars.com/peter-schiff-warns-of-martial-law/Oct 05 23:25
TechrightsBot-trwww.infowars.com |  Peter Schiff Warns of Martial Law Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!  [ http://ur1.ca/fuemq ]Oct 05 23:25
gulag2013haven't seen Peter Schiff in a long timeOct 05 23:25
JimmyCarteri just emailed himOct 05 23:25
JimmyCarterPeter,Oct 05 23:25
JimmyCarterWhat's your take on over-fishing and the tragedy of commons?  In your infowars interview you advocate capitalism but don't mention any such possible drawbacks.  To me this sounded one-sided or over-simplified.Oct 05 23:25
JimmyCarterDo you blame the government for the problems with the previous health insurance system?  I worry that your disparaging of "liberalism" and "socialism" sends the wrong partisan message.Oct 05 23:25
JimmyCarterThanks for your remarks about the "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation the Fed is in with tapering.  That finally crystalized it for me.Oct 05 23:25
gulag2013That video is finally player. Obama supporters not know what party Obama is in? Get out of here. Oct 05 23:40
DaemonFCOne of the problems with the cost of healthcare in America is that we have two systems competing with each other.Oct 05 23:44
DaemonFCWe have a private healthcare system and two systems of insurance. Public systems that limit how many and what kind of people can get on them, and private insurance that is largely a burden on employers and on people who don't qualify for employer plans or public plans and have to pay the whole cost out of their own pocket.Oct 05 23:46
DaemonFCMost of the problems come from the private sector components.Oct 05 23:46
DaemonFCFor profit health insurance companies and hospitals that want to pay their upper management big bucks and huge bonuses.Oct 05 23:47
gulag2013I'm not that informed on the system. I know that it's the only industry that can just send you a bill without you knowing the cost before hand.Oct 05 23:47
DaemonFCIt's driving costs up because the companies and hospitals want a huge profit, and it's driving jobs out of the US because companies can set up in Canada where health insurance is not a burden on them.Oct 05 23:47
DaemonFCThat's why a lot of the vehicles we buy in the United States are actually assembled in Canada.Oct 05 23:48
DaemonFCThe auto makers have a choice between buying these expensive health insurance plans here or going to Canada where they pay a small tax that helps fund the government healthcare that all Canadians are eligible for.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCSo it's a small cost that they can plan for in Canada vs. a huge cost that is going up at 5-6 times the rate of overall inflation in the United States.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCIt probably costs them something like $8-9 here for every $1 they'd spend in Canada.Oct 05 23:49
DaemonFCSo they do business in Canada and export the vehicles to the US for sale.Oct 05 23:50
gulag2013WowOct 05 23:50
DaemonFCand the high costs and inefficiencies that were caused by the private sector spilled over and ruined the public sector health plans like Medicaid and Medicare.Oct 05 23:51
DaemonFCDoctors don't want to see Medicaid patients because they can gouge Medicare and private insurance and Medicaid only reimburses them at a low rate in comparison to their other patientsOct 05 23:52
gulag2013It sounds like a mess. They will have to come force me to pay for a system I won't use. Oct 05 23:52
DaemonFCand Medicare's problem is that it has gone on for many years where it just pays every damned bill that gets sent to it, so doctors and hospitals and drug companies conspire to send the highest bills they can send.Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCIt pays thousands of dollars for motorized scooters if they are "medically necessary".Oct 05 23:53
gulag2013YA, that sounds right. Just see who will pay it. Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCSo every old person that doesn't feel like walking anymore gets a "free" scooter.Oct 05 23:53
DaemonFCand then soon after that, they *can't* walk anymoreOct 05 23:54
DaemonFCbecause they stopped doing it and lose their abilityOct 05 23:54
DaemonFCThen when they die, the scooter doesn't have to be turned in, so the family sells them and makes money off the sale.Oct 05 23:55
DaemonFCA used scooter can go for $500-800 depending on the model.Oct 05 23:55
DaemonFCIf Medicare got it back after the patient died, they could recondition it and give it to someone else.Oct 05 23:55
gulag2013Yes indeed, Sounds very wasteful. Oct 05 23:56
DaemonFCSo they're buying a new scooter at full price each time someone's doctor orders one because they have a patient that griped about walking.Oct 05 23:57
DaemonFCThe patient wouldn't want the scooter if they had to pay for even 20% of the purchase price.Oct 05 23:57
gulag2013I always wondered if a hospital gives me a bandaid, can I just come back with a box and call it even? Oct 05 23:57
DaemonFCThe way they see it, it's just one more freebie that they're entitled to, so they might as well take it.Oct 05 23:58
DaemonFCI got billed $11,000 the last time I was in the hospital.Oct 06 00:01
DaemonFCA few hours in the ER.Oct 06 00:01
DaemonFCI wasn't even admitted into the hospital.Oct 06 00:01
DaemonFCThey call it uncompensated care or "charity" care, and then they sue the patient.Oct 06 00:02
DaemonFCThey get their money back when they garnish your wages or take your house and sell it.Oct 06 00:02
gulag2013That is really scary. I would just try to refuse care. It's so important we learn to take better care of ourselves. Pay now or pay laterOct 06 00:03
DaemonFCMedicare wouldn't be in trouble if they let anyone of any age enroll in it.Oct 06 00:03
DaemonFCThey'd be just like any other insurance company with a balanced risk pool.Oct 06 00:03
DaemonFCThe healthy people would make the system solvent.Oct 06 00:03
DaemonFCFor profit insurance is the reason Medicare and Medicaid exist.Oct 06 00:04
DaemonFCThey're there to take all the old and sick people with very high medical costs, to get them off the balance sheet of the insurance companies.Oct 06 00:05
DaemonFCThe insurance companies then get to insure mostly people that aren't going to cost them much money and will pay a huge premium.Oct 06 00:05
DaemonFCThey offload all the undesirable customers onto the public.Oct 06 00:06
gulag2013I know and it's disqusting that human health is a for profit entity. Oct 06 00:06
oiaohmAustralia PBS setup shows a lot of flaws in medical health for profit ideas.Oct 06 00:07
gulag2013It is the way it is and billions of dollars on medication that doesn't heal any disease Oct 06 00:07
oiaohmgulag2013: Evergreen of patents of medications turn up a lot as well.Oct 06 00:07
oiaohmFunny enough in Australia we have a few drugs produced in the USA for the Australian population by third party producors that cannot be sold to USA cits.Oct 06 00:08
oiaohmWhy to use the PBS in Australia drug maker has to agree after particular time to allow third parties to produce the same drug.Oct 06 00:08
gulag2013Ha, ha. I think I follow you. Oct 06 00:09
oiaohmgulag2013: competition is good Oct 06 00:09
oiaohmwhen it comes to medial drug production.Oct 06 00:09
oiaohmUSA patent system is prevent drug makers competting for low cost production.Oct 06 00:09
gulag2013Well under a lot of circumstances herbal medicine is more effective than man made drugs that hurt vital organsOct 06 00:11
gulag2013That is the way it is though, long shelf life, means no self lifeOct 06 00:12
oiaohmgulag2013: unless you have the problem here where herbal medicine does not have decent quality controls.Oct 06 00:12
oiaohmBasically herbal based medical medicine really need the same quality controls.Oct 06 00:13
gulag2013Good points, but what that was tried first. It's not an option in most. Oct 06 00:13
gulag2013Nutrition, isn't discussed Oct 06 00:14
gulag2013They won'd dare recommend that stop eating meat and dairy. There is no bad cholesterol  in plants. Oct 06 00:15
oiaohmgulag2013: depends on the person.Oct 06 00:15
oiaohmdue to my dna faults I have to eat meat.Oct 06 00:15
gulag2013You can still choose what you eat,,Oct 06 00:16
gulag2013It doesn't have to be cows eating gmo grains. It can be grass fed etc..Oct 06 00:16
oiaohmI am latcose intollerent.Oct 06 00:16
gulag2013That's not a bad thing, most of the dairy isn't good for you. Oct 06 00:17
oiaohmAnd I wish that people had looked at my diet earlier then I would not have missed like 3 years of my early schooling due to illness.Oct 06 00:17
gulag2013Oh sorry you suffered that. Oct 06 00:17
oiaohmLatcose intollernet is nastly.  Subpress imunine system.Oct 06 00:17
oiaohmNo other symtoms.Oct 06 00:17
gulag2013So they forced milk on youOct 06 00:17
oiaohmBasically I would catch any cold going and not be able to rid off it.Oct 06 00:18
oiaohmgulag2013: stupid think about being allergic at times.  You like exactly what you are allergic to.Oct 06 00:19
gulag2013Yes I agree, I have reactions to sugar and caffeine. It takes all my willpower not to consume those things. Oct 06 00:19
oiaohmNo they were not forcing milk on me.  Yes it takes all my will power not to cosume the stuff.Oct 06 00:20
gulag2013Well luckily there are more dairy alternatives coming out all the time. Oct 06 00:20
oiaohmgulag2013: there is a bacteria you can add to milk to break down the lactose.Oct 06 00:21
gulag2013Almond Milk and Coconut milks are really good for you. Oct 06 00:21
oiaohmbefore you drink it.Oct 06 00:21
oiaohmbasically get milk put bacteria in leave it 2 days in fridge then its safe to drink.Oct 06 00:21
oiaohmand particular cheeses don't contain lactose.Oct 06 00:22
gulag2013There is still the puss in dairy man. It's just not normal to be drinking another animals breast milk. We are the only animal doing that. Oct 06 00:22
oiaohmSame kind of reason.  Ie the yeast type consumed it.Oct 06 00:22
oiaohmgulag2013: You forgot cats.Oct 06 00:24
gulag2013I don't drink cat milk either, ha ha. I know what you meantOct 06 00:25
oiaohmgulag2013: cats drink other amimals milk.Oct 06 00:25
gulag2013You do notice after they are past being kittens they don't do thatOct 06 00:25
oiaohmgulag2013: even big cats.Oct 06 00:25
oiaohmgulag2013: even adult cats will.Oct 06 00:26
gulag2013I have never seen a grown cat nursing Oct 06 00:26
oiaohmgulag2013: not nursing.Oct 06 00:26
gulag2013I will take you word on it. Oct 06 00:26
oiaohmgulag2013: when they cosume pray big cats willk drink the breast milk out.Oct 06 00:27
oiaohmgulag2013: its all about extracting as much from a kill possible.Oct 06 00:27
gulag2013Will they eat the whole animal raw, and have the stomach designed for that. Oct 06 00:27
oiaohmgulag2013: tigers and some big cats love full cream milk as rewards.Oct 06 00:28
oiaohmIe cattle milk.Oct 06 00:28
oiaohmWhat is close to there normal pray.Oct 06 00:28
oiaohmgulag2013: the difference is volume.Oct 06 00:28
gulag2013A cows normal predator?Oct 06 00:29
oiaohmCats as adults take milk from other creatures as treaks.Oct 06 00:29
oiaohmgulag2013: big cats.Oct 06 00:29
oiaohmgulag2013: afica where most of the cattle breeds start the normal creature to kill them is big cats.Oct 06 00:29
oiaohmgulag2013: so yes part right abotu drinking another animals breast milk in volume is abnormal.    But there are other animals that drink other creatures milk in small volumes.Oct 06 00:31
gulag2013Thank you for reminding me, good point I have seen my cats drink milk. Oct 06 00:32
gulag2013Here int the states they have pushed dairy as being vital for our health. That simply isnt' the case. You can get all you need from plants. Oct 06 00:33
oiaohmAnd some of the milk problem is human stupidity.   A1 and A2 milk.    A1 cattle produce more milk due to a dna alteration.  But also is less human compadible.   A2 milk cattle produce less milk but is more human compadible.Oct 06 00:33
oiaohmMajority of the cattle milk on shelves is A1 milk.Oct 06 00:33
gulag2013I didn't know that. I know they boil it so it really has no nutrition left. Oct 06 00:34
gulag2013They come after Raw milk sellers Oct 06 00:35
oiaohmgulag2013: wrong on the no nutrition left.Oct 06 00:36
gulag2013What could be left, after heating it at such high tempsOct 06 00:36
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oiaohmHmm just that was odd.Oct 06 00:59
gulag2013You get kicked off the internets ?Oct 06 01:00
JimmyCarterGUIs are always doom, noone has avoided itOct 06 01:01
JimmyCarteroops wrong chanOct 06 01:01
gulag2013What are you saying Mr Carter?Oct 06 01:01
oiaohmgulag2013: no it was power distrubance of some form.Oct 06 01:01
gulag2013I got you, UPS's are great for that Oct 06 01:02
JimmyCarteri was comiserating with someone in #android-devOct 06 01:03
gulag2013Oh cool, do you code apps?Oct 06 01:03
JimmyCarterBrown outs.  Build another power plant.Oct 06 01:03
JimmyCarteryupOct 06 01:03
JimmyCarterif you have nexus7 or better you can try my gameOct 06 01:03
oiaohmgulag2013: I do have a ups.   I suspect something overheated.Oct 06 01:03
gulag2013Nice, Android market place seems like the wild westOct 06 01:03
oiaohmgulag2013: machine only had been up for 6 months.Oct 06 01:04
JimmyCarteryup, its awesomeOct 06 01:04
oiaohmgulag2013: running around 80/90 percent load.Oct 06 01:04
JimmyCarterpretty soon the feds will ruin itOct 06 01:04
gulag2013oiaohm, that's great I switched to linux and have been up 4 days straight. Oct 06 01:04
gulag2013I wish I could try you game, my nexus 7 needs a new usb connectorOct 06 01:05
oiaohmgulag2013: with pastrusised milk I have been on the recieving end on non pastraised milk.Oct 06 01:05
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oiaohmgulag2013: the bad side there are nice little illness you can get from non pastrusised milk.Oct 06 01:05
gulag2013Yes, I wasn't trying to convince you against dairy, it's a choice I made and my tummy thanks me for it. Oct 06 01:06
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough the food value is barely altered by the pastruised and non pastruised.  Please note canning of food is the same process.Oct 06 01:07
gulag2013They do some crazy stuff to the milk and cows. Big Got Milk campaign is not an accident. Oct 06 01:08
gulag2013i have had non homogenized milk. I liked that much better. Oct 06 01:09
oiaohmnon homogenized can be pastruised as well.Oct 06 01:10
oiaohmThe ammount of mixing and altering of the ratios in milk they do is insane.Oct 06 01:10
gulag2013Now I drink Soy which is really not good I hear either,Oct 06 01:11
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gulag2013They strip the baby cows from the mothers at birth, that first milk is called colostrum  I think, it's bottled and sold. The baby boy who knows what happens. Oct 06 01:13
oiaohmThere are very few soy milks I can stand to drink.Oct 06 01:18
oiaohmMost soy milks are too grainy for my mouth.Oct 06 01:19
gulag2013There are hemp, rice, almond, soy, coconut, Have you ever tried coconut  ice cream? It's pretty good. Oct 06 01:20
DaemonFCalmond milk is way better than soyOct 06 01:22
DaemonFCjust remember to get the unflavored/unsweetened stuffOct 06 01:22
gulag2013Yes, I'm trying to watch my sugar, what is your reason for unOct 06 01:22
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft seve icescream avoid like plague.Oct 06 01:23
oiaohmcoconut is nice.Oct 06 01:23
DaemonFCI don't like them dumping in the extra sugar and caloriesOct 06 01:23
gulag2013Oh thanks for the tip. I have never tried soy ice creamOct 06 01:23
DaemonFCand I don't like the vanilla flavorOct 06 01:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its the softserve form.Oct 06 01:23
oiaohmgulag2013: its in fact colder than normal icecream.Oct 06 01:24
gulag2013Yes, the vanilla is to strongOct 06 01:24
DaemonFCThe unflavored stuff is pretty much exactly like skim milk. I use it in my cereal.Oct 06 01:24
oiaohmgulag2013: so you know that icescream head ache it gets you with massive nasty.Oct 06 01:24
gulag2013I'm not sure oiaohm, but I have suffered some serious dairy ice cream stomach aches. Because I don't have a governor  I just keep eatingOct 06 01:26
oiaohmgulag2013: Neither do I normally.Oct 06 01:26
gulag2013I like the plain almond milk Oct 06 01:26
DaemonFChttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/11/25/ways-on-buying-in-markets.aspxOct 06 01:26
TechrightsBot-trarticles.mercola.com | Supermarkets Influence Your Food Shopping Choices  [ http://ur1.ca/fufb3 ]Oct 06 01:26
DaemonFC"Displaying a dollar sign on the display decreases the likelihood of you making a purchase, because it's instinctively equated with "cost" or "spending." As Lindstrom says, "Removing the sign helps the consumer sidestep the harsh reality of outstanding bills and longer-term financial concerns.""Oct 06 01:26
oiaohmgulag2013: soy soft serve is about the only icescream head ache in side one cone.Oct 06 01:27
DaemonFCI never really thought about that, but now that I do...Oct 06 01:27
DaemonFCKroger and Walmart don't put a dollar sign on the price tag.Oct 06 01:27
DaemonFCThey put stickers that say "1.76" or ".99" or "10 for 10".Oct 06 01:27
DaemonFCNot "$1.76", "$0.99", or "10 for $10".Oct 06 01:28
gulag2013Huh? I have been blind to that $ either way. Now i'm curiousOct 06 01:28
DaemonFC"Larger shopping carts equate to increased spending."Oct 06 01:28
DaemonFCYeah, when our Walmart became a super Walmart, they increased the size of the carts by about 50%Oct 06 01:28
oiaohmDaemonFC: its called cost saving.Oct 06 01:29
oiaohmDaemonFC: yes the ink saved on not printing the dollar sign adds up.Oct 06 01:29
gulag2013I know the supermarket here tries to hide the good coffee that is cheaper on the very bottom shelve. The whole eye level scamOct 06 01:29
DaemonFCgulag2013, Yes. They like to put the little bags of coffee that cost like 50 or 75 cents per ounce at eye level.Oct 06 01:30
gulag2013Ha ha the ink savings as they waste thousands on flyeersOct 06 01:30
DaemonFCThey put the bulk coffee that costs less on the bottom two shelves.Oct 06 01:31
gulag2013This was Panera bread company. You have that chain rightOct 06 01:31
gulag2013Anyway they have their brand in the supermarket now for $6 for 12 ounces and it's really good, but they try to hide it. So if it doesn't sell then what.Oct 06 01:32
DaemonFCThe "gourmet" coffee has gotten ridiculous.Oct 06 01:33
gulag2013What ever happened to honest pound of anything.Oct 06 01:33
DaemonFCThey have Starbucks for $8.99 for a one pound bag.Oct 06 01:33
oiaohmgulag2013: look at there flyers they are doing the same stunt.Oct 06 01:33
DaemonFCYou can get two pounds of store brand for $5.99Oct 06 01:33
gulag2013Sure they sell 1lbs Oct 06 01:33
gulag2013I'm still a bit snobby when it comes to good coffeeOct 06 01:34
gulag2013Stunt with whatOct 06 01:34
oiaohmgulag2013: are you the level that roasts your own?Oct 06 01:34
oiaohmgulag2013: no dollar signs.Oct 06 01:34
gulag2013No, that is  a lot of work and you can screw that up if you aren't careful. i will grind beans sometimes. Oct 06 01:35
gulag2013I watched a guy at a place roast, it is really good if you can get some the first week after a roastOct 06 01:36
gulag2013Anyway, yes they spend a lot of money studying us and monitoring our purchasing habits. Sickening Oct 06 01:37
gulag2013I can't say I blame them, but I place people before money. Oct 06 01:38
gulag2013Mcdonalds and the famous free toy training little kids to be life long costumers Oct 06 01:40
gulag2013Coke and Pepsi feeding millions of gallons of corn sugar, and diabetes Oct 06 01:41
oiaohmgulag2013: you miss the caffine.Oct 06 01:41
oiaohmcaffine is not a 100 percent harmless drug.Oct 06 01:41
gulag2013I should be staying off it. I'm slowly drinking more green teaOct 06 01:41
oiaohmcaffine is most dangous when combind with suger.Oct 06 01:42
gulag2013I bet, Oct 06 01:42
gulag2013Sugar is some addictive stuff on it's own. I tried switching to stevia , yuck I can't drink that stuff. Oct 06 01:43
oiaohmIts like the drinks like redbull and mostor and so on they have caused deaths that have been documented by only minor over consumion.Oct 06 01:43
oiaohmMax ammout of redbull you should have a day is 1 can.Oct 06 01:43
oiaohmguess how many people don't obey that.Oct 06 01:43
gulag2013I know right, that stuff is dangerous. I have had those monster drinks before. Oct 06 01:43
oiaohmyet people drink 2 l of coke.Oct 06 01:44
oiaohmSame ammout of active.Oct 06 01:44
oiaohmThis is why coke is working on suger free versions so much.Oct 06 01:44
oiaohmIe no suger no dead consumers.Oct 06 01:44
oiaohmHopefully.Oct 06 01:44
gulag2013the sugar free stuff is even worse. Why is corn syrup to expensive as a sugar sub now?Oct 06 01:45
gulag2013AspartameOct 06 01:45
oiaohmstevia is a art to handle correctly.Oct 06 01:47
gulag2013I had a real coke made with sugar cane a few months back . I was very uneasy for over an hour. Oct 06 01:47
oiaohmsuger cane suger is less adctivive than corn syrup contain froctoosOct 06 01:47
oiaohmcorn syrup is not a good replacement for suger.Oct 06 01:48
gulag2013Yes, what they don't tell you is the corn syrup is around .20 cents a pound and the government subsidizes corn. Oct 06 01:49
oiaohmgulag2013: I have grown stevia plants.Oct 06 01:49
oiaohmgulag2013: the art with stevia usage is hard because stevia alone has a horid after taste.Oct 06 01:49
gulag2013Oh cool, I wonder if it's good like that, I have had the man made white concentrated powdered stuff. I don't like itOct 06 01:50
oiaohmgulag2013: touch of honey remove after taste.Oct 06 01:50
gulag2013I bet, good idea Oct 06 01:50
oiaohmIe use stevia correctly it increases the suger taste.Oct 06 01:50
oiaohmBut you still need to put one of the real sugers in close to raw form.Oct 06 01:51
gulag2013i have some other thing called monk sugar, it's okay but tastes sort of like steviaOct 06 01:51
gulag2013Agave is sort of scamOct 06 01:52
gulag2013I'm going Vegan so I'm supposed to not eat Honey, but that seems a bit extreme. Oct 06 01:53
oiaohmhttp://national.cleanplates.com/health-nutrition/the-new-sugar-monk-fruit/Oct 06 01:53
TechrightsBot-trnational.cleanplates.com | The new "sugar" is...monk fruit! Learn the different types.Healthy Recipes and Sustainable Food  [ http://ur1.ca/fufeo ]Oct 06 01:53
oiaohmmonk fruit is a lot clearner source of natural sweetener.  gulag2013Oct 06 01:54
oiaohmgulag2013: yes simlar compounds to stevia.  No nasty after taste.Oct 06 01:54
gulag2013It's good, not perfect but betterOct 06 01:55
oiaohmgulag2013: but same thing like stevia a very small does of honey or brown suger is enough to fully fool taste buds.Oct 06 01:55
oiaohmIe brown suger with monk fruit works where it does not with stevia.Oct 06 01:56
gulag2013True, i'm an addict though, i'm trying to just cut that out, but it's super hard. Oct 06 01:56
oiaohmBasically 90 to 95 percent of the suger load can be replaced.Oct 06 01:56
oiaohm5 to 10 percent has to remain or your taste buds will pick the difference.Oct 06 01:57
gulag2013I believe that, I was off of sugar for a week and my taste buds appreciated bananas. Oct 06 01:57
oiaohmYou don't get where you were going.Oct 06 01:58
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose  bananas are high Fructose.Oct 06 01:59
TechrightsBot-tren.wikipedia.org | Fructose - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaOct 06 01:59
gulag2013Yes, but i'm the camp that the fiber and minerals help the digestion and it's not the same as stripped out fructose. Oct 06 02:00
gulag2013My body is fine on fruit sugars, I could eat a bag of oranges and not crash. Oct 06 02:01
oiaohmgulag2013: funny enough fructose is more adictive than general suger  ie sucrose sugercane.Oct 06 02:01
oiaohmoranges are not that high in fructose.Oct 06 02:01
gulag2013I see, makes sense I love bananas. Oct 06 02:01
oiaohmfructose in high doese causes crashes like sucrose.Oct 06 02:01
oiaohmgulag2013: basically you are lining up to swap one addiction for another.Oct 06 02:02
oiaohmModeration.Oct 06 02:02
gulag2013ha ha, yes but it's real food Oct 06 02:02
oiaohmI guess you also love corn.Oct 06 02:03
oiaohmbasically you cut suger and your body gets sneaky.Oct 06 02:04
oiaohmAnd makes you crave the fructose items instead.Oct 06 02:04
gulag2013No, I barely eat corn I think it's all been contaminated by Monsanto. Oct 06 02:05
oiaohmhttp://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/nutrition/a/fructosedangers.htmOct 06 02:05
TechrightsBot-trlowcarbdiets.about.com | Fructose - Sweet But Dangerous - The Dangers of Fructose  [ http://ur1.ca/fufh0 ]Oct 06 02:05
gulag2013What do they call that negative calories, I don't think it has much nutrition and you body doesn't even digest it. Oct 06 02:05
oiaohmgulag2013: fructose puts presure on liver.Oct 06 02:05
oiaohmYes you avoid one stack of nasty side effect and can walk straight into another.Oct 06 02:06
gulag2013I have read that. Oct 06 02:06
oiaohmModeration usage of fructose and sucrose is fine.Oct 06 02:06
oiaohmSame with other sugers.Oct 06 02:06
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oiaohmIn fact bannas also contain sucrose  gulag2013Oct 06 02:08
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oiaohmgulag2013: so yep suger in nice hidden for.   1 or 2 bannas a day fine pig out on them you are asking for it.Oct 06 02:08
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gulag2013I have had more than two and talk about getting high and full of energyOct 06 02:10
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oiaohmgulag2013: just because it natural does not mean it cannot harm you.Oct 06 02:13
gulag2013Well tell an Ape that he eats to many bananas. Oct 06 02:13
gulag2013I do appreciate your help, I'm pleasantly surprised you are that informed on the subject. Oct 06 02:14
DaemonFCA woman looks outside and sees a man masturbating on her front porch, so she calls 911. "There's a damned Democrat masturbating on my front porch!". The 911 operator says "Could you say that again!?". The woman says "I told you, there's a damned Democrat masturbating on my front porch!". The 911 operator says "How do you know he's a Democrat?. The woman says "Duh! If he was a Republican, he'd be fucOct 06 02:16
DaemonFCking ME!"Oct 06 02:16
gulag2013drum roll, okay slightly funnyOct 06 02:17
oiaohmgulag2013: they have different bio to us.   We are more fish/meat eaters than the Apes.   Heck the Apes can make vitiman c where we cannot.Oct 06 02:17
oiaohmgulag2013: that is some of the big things.Oct 06 02:17
oiaohmParticular items the human body cannot make means human body burns less fuel than our Ape relations.Oct 06 02:18
gulag2013i reserve that is were I argue that we may be able to eat meat, but it ferments in our system and causes all kinds of health issues. Oct 06 02:19
oiaohmIts the fact we can eat meat why being vegan is so hard.Oct 06 02:20
oiaohmmeat in the form fish or read or white.  Basically contains chemicals human body skips out on producing.Oct 06 02:21
oiaohmWhere are normal ape would be able to produce those chemicals.Oct 06 02:21
gulag2013I don't find it hard, i'm mean I'm not against it for survival. Part me thinks that is why we can, during winter months with no food. We would have been deadOct 06 02:21
oiaohmSo a vegan has to be very careful to eat plants that provide those chemicals.Oct 06 02:22
oiaohmSomething buddist monks worked out how to do for most people.Oct 06 02:22
oiaohmgulag2013: basically want to live vegan take a buddist cooking classes.Oct 06 02:23
gulag2013That would be cool, I'm interested in buddist teachings myself. Oct 06 02:23
oiaohmMy case is a little different I have a new proten multation.  So I have to eat meat until I do find a plant that can provide that one.Oct 06 02:23
gulag2013Protein/Oct 06 02:24
oiaohmgulag2013: basically I would love to come a buddist monk but I cannot live in the eat vegan diet.Oct 06 02:24
gulag2013I have no interest in becoming a monk, just to be more aligned with nature. Oct 06 02:24
oiaohmBasically buddist monks have thousands of years of knolledge about living vegan.Oct 06 02:25
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gulag2013They are known to be vegans, yep. Oct 06 02:26
oiaohmvery good at it.Oct 06 02:26
gulag2013I read some are allowed to eat some meat. It depends Oct 06 02:26
oiaohmgulag2013: buddist rules are not set in solid stone.Oct 06 02:27
oiaohmIf they are served meat not to offend host they will eat it.Oct 06 02:27
oiaohmBut they are not mean to intetionally seek out to kill it.Oct 06 02:27
oiaohmor have it killed to suite there needs.Oct 06 02:28
oiaohmbasically buddist monks are sane they are not going to stave to death if allready killed meat is the only thing on offer.Oct 06 02:28
gulag2013That is where my mind is at. I don't have the stomach to kill animals for my food. So I don't pay others to do it for me. Oct 06 02:28
oiaohmwhile I am eating meat I don't have the stomach either.Oct 06 02:29
oiaohmIf I go off meat I become a very different person.Oct 06 02:29
oiaohmbasically nature taking over to get what my body required.Oct 06 02:30
gulag2013That is today, maybe tomorrow I will eat meat again, I don't like absolutes. Today I didnt' eat meat. Oct 06 02:30
oiaohmso increase agreesion.Oct 06 02:30
oiaohmgulag2013: so you are very much a buddist are core.Oct 06 02:30
gulag2013I don't know. I haven't researched it muchOct 06 02:31
gulag2013I like the idea. Oct 06 02:31
gulag2013Being your own power is very important to me. Not worshiping a false god Oct 06 02:32
oiaohmgulag2013: buddist have to major sects.Oct 06 02:32
oiaohmgulag2013: one see budda who was a real person as a real living teacher who died.Oct 06 02:32
oiaohmThat sect does not worsh budda at all.Oct 06 02:33
oiaohmgulag2013: of coruse there is another sect to says he assended.Oct 06 02:33
oiaohmgulag2013: yes how to start a long buddist cat fight put both groups in the same room.Oct 06 02:33
oiaohmNormally ends with the normal no right to push your beliefs on others and everyone is free to have their own believes.Oct 06 02:34
oiaohmgulag2013: basically the right sect of buddist you would get alone with extreamly well.  Ok might not ever become a buddist but they would be no problem to your because their believes would be simplar.Oct 06 02:35
gulag2013No, we shouldn't be doing that. I have to be careful of that. I just see people trying to reach false happiness and it's sad to watch. Oct 06 02:35
DaemonFCI found some pictures of my mom and my aunt in Paris from back in 2009.Oct 06 02:43
DaemonFC(the aunt that died in August)Oct 06 02:43
DaemonFCI'm going to pull them off these CDs and archive them.Oct 06 02:44
gulag2013Onto what media?Oct 06 02:45
gulag2013Is there something that would last a lifetime? I know cd's are not great. Oct 06 02:46
gulag2013Oh bluetooth devices still get me cranky, I would figure they would just work at this point. Oct 06 02:49
oiaohmgulag2013: look up mdiscOct 06 02:50
oiaohmgulag2013:  http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/  combind that with dvdisaster you have very long term achive media.Oct 06 02:51
TechrightsBot-trwww.mdisc.com | What is M-Disc?  The M-DISCOct 06 02:51
DaemonFCWell, I'll email them to my mom.Oct 06 02:52
DaemonFCAs far as I know, Google doesn't lose files.Oct 06 02:52
oiaohmDaemonFC: they have in the past.Oct 06 02:53
oiaohmDaemonFC: google is not 100 percent bullet proffOct 06 02:53
gulag2013M-Disc looks interesting, but they need to be sold local Oct 06 02:55
gulag2013I love hate Google. I use google drive for some stuff, but it's against my nature to allow a cloud to hold my stuff. Oct 06 02:56
oiaohmproblem is there is not much options.Oct 06 02:57
prurigrogoogle drive is amazing for collaborationOct 06 02:58
gulag2013prurigro, I agree and it's one reason I still keep my gmailOct 06 02:58
gulag2013Those M discs I see a problem. We won't have optical drives in 1000 years. Oct 06 02:59
prurigroyou don't need a mail for itOct 06 02:59
gulag2013I retract that maybe no opticals in ten yearsOct 06 02:59
prurigroI keep mine for certain categories of things I don't mind on the potentially public record (depending who google shares with), but you can definitel just sign up for drive/docs with another emalOct 06 02:59
gulag2013Yes, I opted way out of google *Oct 06 03:00
gulag2013google + sorry about thatOct 06 03:00
oiaohmgulag2013: there will be a good question what will we have in 10 years.Oct 06 03:03
oiaohmM disc storage will live to what ever the new storage will be.Oct 06 03:03
oiaohmCurrent harddrives and flash drives don't have the life span.Oct 06 03:04
gulag2013I hope we still have removable media, apple is starting to solder the flash storage on the motherboards. Oct 06 03:04
oiaohmPrinting hardcopies take too much space.Oct 06 03:04
oiaohmgulag2013: really it would be warped if in the next 10 years we have cameras on devices high enough res to scan dvd discs.Oct 06 03:06
gulag2013Startling, Did that idea just come to you. ThatOct 06 03:07
gulag2013ThatOct 06 03:07
gulag2013That would be wild. Oct 06 03:08
oiaohmgulag2013: I have wondered that idea for a while.Oct 06 03:09
gulag2013No doubt, you would just have a  spinning spindle of some kind underneath a dome with the camera lens on topOct 06 03:09
oiaohmRealy no.Oct 06 03:09
oiaohmI have done grids of 2d bar codes.Oct 06 03:10
oiaohmSo as long as the camera can run over and join the different framements up.Oct 06 03:10
oiaohmSo disc does not need to spin.Oct 06 03:10
oiaohmThe most compact cd play that never went into production cut the cd in two and used a scaning head that moved.Oct 06 03:11
gulag2013i'm not that smart about this, but wow that would be great make an iso from your phone camera straight to your phone. Oct 06 03:11
oiaohmWe are talking insanely high resolution.Oct 06 03:12
oiaohmBasical microscope in camera.Oct 06 03:12
gulag2013You have yourself a  patent,Oct 06 03:12
gulag2013Don't let the idea get lost. Oct 06 03:12
oiaohmCurrently I archive over 1.5 megs per side of sheet of paperOct 06 03:13
oiaohmof a4Oct 06 03:13
oiaohmThat is scanable in on a mobile phone.Oct 06 03:13
oiaohmYes current day tech.Oct 06 03:13
oiaohmgulag2013: ie passwords in file that are a little hard to copy quickly.Oct 06 03:14
gulag2013Neat, using what that would save me some agravation for scrap records. Oct 06 03:14
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gulag2013I'm trying to stay paperless, I scan most of my stuff on a cheap cannon flatbed. Your phones sounds convenient Oct 06 03:16
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oiaohmgulag2013: my long term goal is to be able to get books printed using the system I do.Oct 06 03:20
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gulag2013That would be great. I know I value less stuff. Oct 06 03:23
oiaohmgulag2013: I just think it would be funny to have the complete works of shakespear or other famous writers in a very thin book.Oct 06 03:30
gulag2013That would be nice, I have some software that will read the text for me. Oct 06 03:31
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oiaohmexactly the software on phones already exists to read the books.Oct 06 03:32
oiaohmA source of physical world books for phones is missing.Oct 06 03:32
gulag2013Well there is kindle and others on phonesOct 06 03:32
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oiaohmgulag2013: when I say physical I mean physical.Oct 06 03:33
gulag2013Oh sorry, maybe I donOct 06 03:34
oiaohmScanning a normal paper book in takes ages.Oct 06 03:34
oiaohmSo I started working on systems with the goal of being able to place like 1 or 2 pages in a book containing the complete book for easy scanning.Oct 06 03:35
gulag2013Okay, two pages at once?Oct 06 03:35
oiaohmgulag2013: one at a time scanning is designed into what I have done.Oct 06 03:36
oiaohmso 1 page half the book the next page the other half.Oct 06 03:36
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oiaohmI had to allow for phone camera limits gulag2013Oct 06 03:36
oiaohmie they don't do double side scaning or across fold very well.Oct 06 03:36
oiaohmYes the fun of camera focus.Oct 06 03:37
DaemonFChttp://www.cityautomall.com/VehicleDetails/used-2004-Ford-Freestar_Wagon-4dr_SEL-Columbia_City-IN/2065800953Oct 06 03:37
TechrightsBot-trwww.cityautomall.com | 2004 Ford Freestar Wagon for sale in Columbia City - 2FMZA52244BB20397 - City Automall  [ http://ur1.ca/fp8zy ]Oct 06 03:37
DaemonFCI still have my eye on that one.Oct 06 03:38
DaemonFCTold the guy that if he can knock a few hundred off of it, then I might buy it.Oct 06 03:38
DaemonFCIt's been on their lot since August.Oct 06 03:38
DaemonFCNo auction is going to give them $4,000 for it.Oct 06 03:38
DaemonFCI'm kind of hoping he gets sick of looking at it and offers it to me at $3,500.Oct 06 03:39
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DaemonFCThe guy called me back and offered that 2004 Crown Victoria to me for $2,500.Oct 06 03:44
DaemonFCI'm not sure I really want to get in on that though.Oct 06 03:44
DaemonFCRight off the bat, I'd have an ABS sensor to replace, an exhaust leak to fix, a transmission flush, and a blend motor issue for the heat/air conditioning system that would probably require them to take the dash apart. :POct 06 03:45
DaemonFCSo that's some serious money.Oct 06 03:45
DaemonFCThen it somehow got a chunk taken out of the front grill.Oct 06 03:46
DaemonFCSo I'd need to find a replacement grill.Oct 06 03:46
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iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/google-now-taking-down-eight-pirate-links-every-single-second-131005/Oct 06 04:18
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Google Now Taking Down Eight Pirate Links Every Single Second | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fug5m ]Oct 06 04:18
iophk"If Nokia had kept MeeGo, Jolla wouldn't exist"Oct 06 04:22
iophkhttp://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/finland-and-nokia-an-affair-to-remember/2/Oct 06 04:22
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Finland and Nokia: An affair to remember | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fug64 ]Oct 06 04:22
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schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/3134661Oct 06 05:24
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You? http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/is-slackware-the-oldest-remaining-linux-distribution-right-for-you/ #slackware #gnu #linuxOct 06 05:24
TechrightsBot-tr-> www.makeuseof.com | Is Slackware, The Oldest Remaining Linux Distribution, Right For You?  [ http://ur1.ca/ftyfy ]Oct 06 05:24
schestowitz_bed2"the author gets rightly put in his place for such a superficial take on Slackware"Oct 06 05:24
schestowitz_bed2https://joindiaspora.com/posts/2825073Oct 06 05:25
TechrightsBot-tr@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: OK, I guess I got #Diaspora installed and running on the server side, need SSL certificate to take it liveOct 06 05:25
schestowitz_bed2"Is this up and running yet?"Oct 06 05:25
schestowitz_bed2No, I put that aside foir now Plenty of news to catch up with first, it's of higher priority.Oct 06 05:26
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schestowitz_bed2https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/3144074Oct 06 05:52
TechrightsBot-trwww.joindiaspora.com | ## Hate the "Sign in to Chrome" spyware feature of Chrome?  [ http://ur1.ca/fugr0 ]Oct 06 05:52
gulag2013I'm going to try this nice postOct 06 06:02
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014480.htmlOct 06 06:07
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/folf8 ]Oct 06 06:07
DaemonFCNvidia says they will be releasing some open documentation of their cards.Oct 06 06:07
JimmyCarteryou can trust google unless theyre subpoenaed or national security lettered, or whatever the hip feds bully with these daysOct 06 06:08
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014497.htmlOct 06 06:10
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCBOct 06 06:10
DaemonFC"While I'm personally one of the guys who wouldn't like to see a binary Oct 06 06:10
DaemonFCblob in nouveau, no matter the terms, I've read the firmware blobs Oct 06 06:10
DaemonFCdecompilation and I'm quite concerned about possible security implications."Oct 06 06:10
DaemonFClolOct 06 06:10
DaemonFCNvidia doesn't care about security. They only care about performance. Their driver also cheats. It tries to detect what you're running and apply hacks to speed up the frame rate.Oct 06 06:11
DaemonFChttp://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/nouveau/2013-September/014584.htmlOct 06 06:11
TechrightsBot-trlists.freedesktop.org | [Nouveau] offer to help, DCB  [ http://ur1.ca/fugub ]Oct 06 06:11
DaemonFC"I need to retract my suggestion of Nouveau using NVIDIA'sOct 06 06:12
DaemonFCbinary-only microcode, at least until we get to a point where NVIDIAOct 06 06:12
DaemonFChas earned some trust from Nouveau in our microcode implementations."Oct 06 06:12
JimmyCarterdo they care about security performance ? ^^Oct 06 06:12
DaemonFCYou don't earn trust by releasing binary-only firmware.Oct 06 06:12
DaemonFCThe only purpose of binary-only firmware is to hide things.Oct 06 06:12
DaemonFCJimmyCarter, I've lost count of the number of times that Nvidia's driver has caused critical security issues. They also don't bother to patch them until someone releases a program that actually demonstrates how to exploit their driver.Oct 06 06:13
JimmyCarterpretty soon someone will hack them with their exploits for their own software like adobeOct 06 06:14
DaemonFCProprietary firmware in an otherwise open driver is better than an entirely proprietary driver.Oct 06 06:14
DaemonFCThat's the way AMD decided to go with their open source driver.Oct 06 06:14
gulag2013I'm naive, but why play with Nvidia at all ? Oct 06 06:14
JimmyCartersome people need tflopsOct 06 06:15
DaemonFCBetter hardware than AMD, but the open driver is not very useful.Oct 06 06:15
DaemonFCSo if you use Nvidia, you're going to be stuck with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 06:15
DaemonFCThe Nouveau driver works with my graphics card, but it is painfully slow.Oct 06 06:16
DaemonFCOn really old Nvidia hardware, it sometimes works OK compared with the proprietary driver.Oct 06 06:17
DaemonFCI think the biggest practical concern right now with Nvidia's proprietary driver is that they haven't commented on how well they plan to support Wayland or Mir.Oct 06 06:18
DaemonFChttp://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/10/ubuntus-controversial-mir-window-system-wont-ship-with-13-10-desktop/Oct 06 06:21
TechrightsBot-trarstechnica.com | Ubuntus controversial Mir window system wont ship with 13.10 desktop | Ars Technica  [ http://ur1.ca/fugvy ]Oct 06 06:21
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DaemonFCUbuntu is conducting their negotiations with Nvidia and AMD regarding Mir support behind closed doors.Oct 06 06:22
gulag2013Hmm, All I know about Mir is that it is replacing X11 windows something. How will Mir improve the performance?Oct 06 06:25
DaemonFCI don't think it will.Oct 06 06:26
gulag2013I don't understand Ubuntu's intentions with most of what they are doing. Oct 06 06:27
DaemonFCThe justification for replacing X in both Wayland and Mir's case is mostly that X does a lot of undesirable things that can't easily be fixed.Oct 06 06:27
oiaohmgulag2013: X11 is crap.Oct 06 06:35
oiaohmgulag2013: there is even talk of X12 once Wayland and Mir is in place.Oct 06 06:35
oiaohmgulag2013: List of undesirable is X11 secuirty does not work.   Lets take screen savers they are repsonsable for handing non protected userpassword.Oct 06 06:36
gulag2013I don't know, they can do what ever they wish. There was a time I was excited but they flip flop in so many directions. IOct 06 06:36
oiaohmgulag2013: history of X11 is horble.Oct 06 06:37
MinceRoiaohm: what happens if the screensaver crashes on other systems?Oct 06 06:37
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oiaohmMinceR: under Linux the desktop unlocks.Oct 06 06:38
MinceR_other systems_Oct 06 06:38
oiaohmMinceR:  Windows password dialog is handled by the login manager.Oct 06 06:38
oiaohmMinceR: on the screensaver.Oct 06 06:38
MinceRso, what if that crashes?Oct 06 06:38
oiaohmIf login manager crashes on windows you user session is terminated.Oct 06 06:39
MinceR(as for protecting passwords, there's this >> http://www.openwall.com/tcb/ _Oct 06 06:39
TechrightsBot-trwww.openwall.com | tcb - the alternative to /etc/shadowOct 06 06:39
MinceRs/_/)/Oct 06 06:39
MinceRicOct 06 06:39
oiaohmBasically failure should not be access.Oct 06 06:39
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oiaohmSome bugs Windows and Linux has.Oct 06 06:42
oiaohmLike applications able to snoop on other applications windows without requiring permission.Oct 06 06:42
oiaohmHigh secuirty OS's don't tollerate this.Oct 06 06:43
gulag2013Hmm sounds like Explorer and that knowing what you are typing in other windows. Oct 06 06:43
oiaohmgulag2013: one of the key differences of Mir and Wayland is no snooping on other applications without permission from the program controlling the screen output.Oct 06 06:46
oiaohmYep programs by default can only screenshot their own windows.Oct 06 06:46
gulag2013So that is bug in both Linux and Windows?Oct 06 06:47
oiaohmYepOct 06 06:47
oiaohmFedora is dropping userspace X11 drivers.  Or I am a super big security flaw.Oct 06 06:47
oiaohmX11 userspace drivers require access to /dev/mem that is basically raw access to the complete system memory.Oct 06 06:48
gulag2013In what version, I want to test Fedora really soonOct 06 06:48
oiaohmuserspace drivers are very old things gulag2013Oct 06 06:48
oiaohmgulag2013: like you will not be attempting to use like s3 video cards right.Oct 06 06:48
gulag2013I really don't think so.. What is S3?Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmgulag2013: old type of video cardOct 06 06:49
oiaohmverry old type of video car.Oct 06 06:49
oiaohmcardOct 06 06:49
gulag2013Oh, This laptop is three years old, I highly doubt it. Oct 06 06:50
oiaohmgulag2013: no way in hell its in there.Oct 06 06:51
oiaohmgulag2013: we are talking almost 10 years ago was the last time they were made.Oct 06 06:51
gulag2013Ha ha,  well I still plan on testing Fedora. I was thinking userspaces was Workspaces, I turned that of I don't use it. Oct 06 06:53
oiaohmX11 first was design to be fully userspace.Oct 06 06:54
oiaohmNice big security holes.Oct 06 06:54
oiaohmThen it evolved to a little kernel assisted but poorly done.Oct 06 06:55
oiaohmgulag2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo_jZYDzek8   This is a good watch for even just a few minor generations back in X11 drivers issues.Oct 06 06:56
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | XDC2013: David Herrmann - DRM Security - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh2e ]Oct 06 06:56
oiaohmgulag2013: basically dri2 the last generation of X11 drivers for Linux has to be deprecated because it security flawed.Oct 06 06:57
gulag2013Okay, great I can do videos. This topic is a little hard for me to follow.  A little sad for me,  I was thinking Linux was more secure. Oct 06 06:59
oiaohmgulag2013: to be true Linux is more secure than Windows but that is serousally not hard.Oct 06 07:00
oiaohmgulag2013: but compared to high rated secuirty OS's Linux is nothing.Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmFor desktop.Oct 06 07:01
gulag2013Yes, lol sounds like windows is a very low bar Oct 06 07:01
MinceRit isOct 06 07:01
MinceRand what about macos?Oct 06 07:01
oiaohmMinceR: macos for desktop is techically a head of Linux.Oct 06 07:02
gulag2013I read they just sneak in patches, so who knows the truthOct 06 07:02
oiaohmPlease note the for desktop bit.Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmLinux on server is a different game.   Its the graphical side of Linux that has been insanely weak.Oct 06 07:02
oiaohmthe work on wayland really was a sign that people were serousally looking at the Linux desktop.Oct 06 07:03
oiaohmAnd worked out that X11 could not be fixed.Oct 06 07:03
gulag2013Windows Metrofied Server 2012. Why Why Why Oct 06 07:03
MinceRwhy does it exist or why do people use it? :>Oct 06 07:04
gulag2013Why would you add tiles to itOct 06 07:04
prurigrooiaohm: in my experience, linux has been ahead of osx graphically in quite a number of ways for quite some time-- and the ogl limitations of open source drivers were more of an issue in osx last I checkedOct 06 07:04
oiaohmprurigro: secuirty wise OS X has been ahead.Oct 06 07:05
prurigrooiaohm: graphical security?Oct 06 07:05
oiaohmprurigro: mostly because OS X did the sane thing and not use X11Oct 06 07:05
prurigrohow so?Oct 06 07:05
MinceRwhat they did is not saneOct 06 07:06
oiaohmX11 basically has no graphical secruity.Oct 06 07:06
MinceRthe gui is supposed to be a selling point yet it can't maximize windows properly and it can't handle virtual desktops properlyOct 06 07:06
MinceRthe global menu bar is a usability failureOct 06 07:06
oiaohmMinceR: from a userablity point of view I would agree OS X is not sane.Oct 06 07:06
prurigrooiaohm: in regards to what? display servers from other local display servers?Oct 06 07:06
MinceRi thought so :)Oct 06 07:06
gulag2013The maximizing windows on OSX bugs me, Oct 06 07:07
prurigroI got a mac a while back to see what the deal was and there were issues I was running into that I researched and found were essentially "problems with the osx ogl implementation" and that osx was not for gamesOct 06 07:07
prurigrobut that's not really the topicOct 06 07:07
oiaohmprurigro: Like X11 does not include a proper screensaver handling.Oct 06 07:07
oiaohmprurigro: does not include proper memory protections.Oct 06 07:08
gulag2013Ha ha, is that why I have to use caffeine to keep my videos playingOct 06 07:08
oiaohmprurigro: in fact for X11 to operate with other X11 applications you cannot setup secreen secuiryt.Oct 06 07:08
prurigroshould the display server be responsible for screensavers? memory protection I'll give you on shared servers and stuff, but you were talking about the desktopOct 06 07:08
prurigrowell its host based rightOct 06 07:08
prurigroso all or nothing at the localhost levelOct 06 07:09
oiaohmprurigro: to be correct login manager should be in charge of screensaver in a lot of ways.Oct 06 07:09
MinceRit doesn't have to be the login managerOct 06 07:09
oiaohmsystemd-logind  for wayland can run screensaver as independant instance.Oct 06 07:09
oiaohmSo screensaver dies and you have access to nothing.Oct 06 07:10
prurigrogdm does a decent job these days I've foundOct 06 07:10
oiaohmprurigro: exactly why is a login manager graphical.Oct 06 07:10
prurigroword, but you still don't think this is secure enough?Oct 06 07:10
oiaohmprurigro: you want the least possible running as root.Oct 06 07:10
DaemonFClolOct 06 07:11
oiaohmremember gdm is infact running as root.Oct 06 07:11
DaemonFCwatching Malcolm in the MiddleOct 06 07:11
DaemonFC"They have advanced textbooks, and good teachers, and all sorts of things they don't want to waste on normal kids."Oct 06 07:11
prurigrooiaohm: yeah, though if noone can remotely connect to gdm it shouldn't be an issueOct 06 07:11
oiaohmprurigro: no you are forgeting shared computers.Oct 06 07:12
oiaohmLike in libraries.Oct 06 07:12
prurigrowell I wouldn't exactly define that as a desktopOct 06 07:12
DaemonFCI hated public school. I had to go there for a couple of years and felt like I was rotting.Oct 06 07:12
prurigrothose are more along the lines of terminals, in my experienceOct 06 07:12
oiaohmprurigro: they can still be full desktop computers.Oct 06 07:12
oiaohmBasically the complete design of X11 is just flawed all over the place.Oct 06 07:13
DaemonFCWhen I went back to private school, I ended up finishing three years worth of material in a year and finishing high school at the age of 15.Oct 06 07:13
oiaohmLike GDM is a hack.Oct 06 07:13
prurigrosure, but you wouldn't have people staying logged in while others use themOct 06 07:13
prurigroin libraryOct 06 07:13
prurigroies*Oct 06 07:13
DaemonFCI've always been one to "rip the bandaid off".Oct 06 07:13
prurigroif they were desktopsOct 06 07:13
oiaohmprurigro: x11 was desing as a single user interface.Oct 06 07:13
DaemonFCWhen something is unpleasant, I push myself to just get it over with.Oct 06 07:13
oiaohmprurigro: instead of redesign it properly.Oct 06 07:13
oiaohmitems like GDM were invented.Oct 06 07:13
oiaohmprurigro: remember running as root you can login to any user.Oct 06 07:14
prurigrooiaohm: X11 came along when the idea of multiple people using the same computer (that wasn't a terminal) wasn't really feasibleOct 06 07:14
oiaohmprurigro: no the first version of X11 was single user.Oct 06 07:14
prurigrooiaohm: you don't think gdm drops permissions as soon as its launched?Oct 06 07:14
oiaohmthe multi user bit was added latter.Oct 06 07:14
DaemonFCX11 is only slightly older than I am.Oct 06 07:15
DaemonFCIt hasn't aged well.Oct 06 07:15
prurigroyeah, that's what I was saying-- it's not even really multiuser now-- just separate serversOct 06 07:15
oiaohmprurigro: it cannot because there was no background server to change from user to user.Oct 06 07:15
prurigrowhat do you mean?Oct 06 07:16
MinceRif it's the first version, it's X1, not X11 :>Oct 06 07:16
oiaohmMinceR: no X11 was design as a extendable protocol.Oct 06 07:17
DaemonFC"The first truly modular disaster."Oct 06 07:17
prurigroare we on X11R7 yet? :)Oct 06 07:17
oiaohmprurigro: display managers or like KDM/GDM.  start the X11 server that is the user session.Oct 06 07:17
MinceRi seem to remember that x.org is now X11R7 or something.Oct 06 07:18
oiaohmprurigro: and that X11 server still runs as root.Oct 06 07:18
oiaohmprurigro: wayland is infact design never to be running as root.Oct 06 07:18
oiaohmprurigro: all root operations are pushed back to the logind or equal.Oct 06 07:18
prurigrooiaohm: what do you suppose the gdm user and groups are on my computer for then?Oct 06 07:18
oiaohmprurigro: that allows attempted steping down.Oct 06 07:19
prurigroI'm pretty sure that's what the xserver would be run underOct 06 07:19
prurigrolike, it doesn't need root to run XOct 06 07:19
oiaohmOnly recent X11 with DRI2 got the means to run without root a little.Oct 06 07:20
prurigroweird, my system shows gdm running "systemd"Oct 06 07:21
oiaohmsystemd places other wrappers around gdm.Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFChttp://www.amazon.com/forum/politics/ref=cm_cd_tfp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx1S3QSZRUL93V8&cdThread=Tx1X8DTHZCC4Y2LOct 06 07:21
prurigrohrm? what do you mean the means to run without root?Oct 06 07:21
TechrightsBot-trwww.amazon.com | Amazon.com: Customer Discussions: US Military Will Use Drones to Spy on North Korea  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh6z ]Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFC ZOMG PINK PONIES says:Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFC"Beginning next spring, the Air Force will fly several drones near North Korean borders to gather intelligence data on the reclusive country, where an estimated 24 million people live under oppression, sealed off from the rest of the world."Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFCpfft....Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFCThey've been doing that in a country of 300 million oppressed people that are increasingly sealed off from the rest of the world for over ten years.Oct 06 07:21
DaemonFC:) Oct 06 07:21
oiaohmprurigro: only with DRI2+ drivers.Oct 06 07:21
prurigroX has always been able to run without root-- we were talking about *dmsOct 06 07:21
oiaohmprurigro: to interface with screen X11 has always required root.Oct 06 07:22
oiaohmUntil dri2Oct 06 07:22
prurigrowhat about when you logged in as your user and ran "startx"?Oct 06 07:22
oiaohmThen dri2 buffer handling was stuffed up and guessable.Oct 06 07:22
oiaohmprurigro: that is a suid bitted as rootOct 06 07:22
prurigroand X too?Oct 06 07:23
prurigroit isn't on my machineOct 06 07:23
prurigroahh, xorg is thoOct 06 07:23
prurigrowell there ya goOct 06 07:24
prurigrolearned something new :)Oct 06 07:24
oiaohmYep.Oct 06 07:25
oiaohmOr in otherwords the first secuirty hole we want by by.Oct 06 07:26
prurigroon a similar note, wayland is in serious need of full desktop support (which I hear gnome 3.10 is almost able to deliver now), but it worked quite nicely last I testedOct 06 07:26
oiaohmprurigro: gets worse when you start running more than 1 x11 session on a single video card and switching between them.Oct 06 07:26
brendynman, anyone know how to do javascript bullshit to download things begind jplayer buttons and ajax pages?Oct 06 07:26
oiaohmprurigro: like with DRI2 and beffer only one set off buffers on the video card.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmprurigro: so lets play the magic dance of not step on each other.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmDRI3 is bring render nodes and other isolation things.Oct 06 07:27
oiaohmWell and truely overdue.Oct 06 07:27
prurigrobrendyn: ajax will be exposed to everything that looks at the source once the page loads it (view source simply chooses to give ou the pre-ajax version, so grab developer tools or maybe it was firebug to view the newer sources)Oct 06 07:28
prurigrobrendyn: and then I think jplayer just has you drop the filename into its args iircOct 06 07:28
brendynprurigro: I need to do it systematically with tens of thousands of files on thousands of pages Oct 06 07:29
*brendyn promises he is up to no goodOct 06 07:29
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, I definitely had points back in the day where offscreens from one session were accidentally pasted into refreshing images on another display server session-- xgl helped a lot thereOct 06 07:29
prurigrobrendyn: hmm, I woner if wget or curl can trigger ajax...Oct 06 07:29
oiaohmprurigro: the possiblity todo that is still in all current X11 servers.Oct 06 07:29
brendyni searched google but it really didnt look promisingOct 06 07:30
brendyni could not find much interesting in inspect elementOct 06 07:30
oiaohmprurigro: basically X11 is a huge stuffed up mess.Oct 06 07:30
oiaohmprurigro: this is why X12 is being considered after wayland.  For a new remote X11 protocal with a huge stack of legacy stupidity killed.Oct 06 07:30
prurigrobrendyn: maybe use firebug to check what arguments are triggering the ajax to load new stuff, and then emulate that input using curl?Oct 06 07:31
brendynhmmm maybe, but its alright beyond my newby skillsOct 06 07:31
prurigrooiaohm: ontop of wayland or as a more use-specific platform now that the desktop people won't be complaining?Oct 06 07:32
prurigrobrendyn: that's how you learn though!Oct 06 07:32
oiaohmprurigro: wayland will be able to do remote very well using rendernodes and other things to send 3d grade graphics by VNC or RDP.Oct 06 07:32
brendynOh wow, you're completely right. I had to click to expand (yet another) html div thingy before I could see the direct linkOct 06 07:33
oiaohmprurigro: X12 will be attempt to get a more traffic compact protocol.Oct 06 07:33
brendynHowever, this still leaves the challange of making wget do itOct 06 07:33
brendynI was thinking that It could be possible with some kind of javascript bookmarklet, but i dont even know javascriptOct 06 07:33
prurigrooiaohm: oh sick-- that's actually a major fallback in the usability dept for X11; RDP style drawing, where a compressed image isn't what's required to be sentOct 06 07:34
oiaohmprurigro: RDP and VNC are both compressed image sends.Oct 06 07:34
oiaohmprurigro: virtualgl prototype with X11 was also compressed image send but it did not work well because it was hacking the local video card drivers to work.Oct 06 07:35
brendynIf i copy paste the link to wget I can download it, and i dont even need to use my login detailsOct 06 07:35
oiaohmprurigro: basically remote 3d acceated will become normal.Oct 06 07:35
prurigrobrendyn: I feel like you might have better luck with curl or something where you're speaking to the server rather than something attempting to download the html presented... though following links would be far less energy than curlOct 06 07:35
brendynbut traversing the page to get the link in the first place... :/Oct 06 07:35
oiaohmprurigro: X11 remote advantage is the means to send to client end what area of screen are of intest to applications.Oct 06 07:36
oiaohmprurigro: so clicking else were does not result in network traffic that much.Oct 06 07:36
brendynhmm ok, but where to start.Oct 06 07:36
prurigrooiaohm: word, yeah, that part I like too-- surely wayland could do that though since the whole 3d thing places each screen in a separate offscreenOct 06 07:37
prurigrobrendyn: I've done something similar by using sqlite to create a temporary database of links each time it happens upon one (with an if statement checking it's in the domain I want checked), not adding duplicaes, and then going through one by one each time it gets to the end of the previousOct 06 07:38
brendynholy shitOct 06 07:38
brendynwhat about http://ubuntuincident.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/scraping-ajax-web-pages/Oct 06 07:39
prurigroused that to parse a giant intranet site and extract relevant information in the header and footer of each :)Oct 06 07:39
TechrightsBot-trubuntuincident.wordpress.com | Scraping AJAX web pages (Part 1) | The Ubuntu Incident  [ http://ur1.ca/fuh9q ]Oct 06 07:39
brendynsecond option uses webkitOct 06 07:39
prurigroohh yeah, I forgot there was a cli version of webkitOct 06 07:39
brendynreckon it would be fruitful to try it?Oct 06 07:40
prurigroodds of getting it to easily give you the resulting ajax page are higher, so I'd say yes-- even if you do then have to do something fancy for a recursive scanOct 06 07:40
oiaohmprurigro: X12 also will move applications off screens into independant zones.   So different handling to share buffers.Oct 06 07:41
prurigrooiaohm: even when rendering 2d you mean?Oct 06 07:41
oiaohmprurigro: even for 2d rendering.Oct 06 07:41
prurigro(since it already does this sans memory protection in 3d)Oct 06 07:41
prurigrointerestingOct 06 07:41
oiaohmprurigro: you know X11 magic stuff.Oct 06 07:41
brendynthe website has a page full of normal html links. i follow those, and then there are 5 ajax tabs that contain different collections of text and jplayer buttons that i need to downloadOct 06 07:41
oiaohmprurigro: this is really stupid.   Over network X11 sends magic ID as plain text.Oct 06 07:42
oiaohmprurigro: X11 without ssh wrapping is open to attack so many ways its not funny.Oct 06 07:42
prurigrobrendyn: you're going for the text too eh? I guess you could just get a list of links to parse the first time, then go through and wget each of those directly with a second script, as an alternative (assuming links aren't generated for the session)Oct 06 07:43
oiaohmprurigro: Like at Univistory I use to be able to snoop on anyones screen because it was not encrypted.Oct 06 07:43
oiaohmprurigro: yes X11 default spec says not encrypted.Oct 06 07:43
prurigrooiaohm: they're probably relying on the networking solution being used to protect it no? like ssh?Oct 06 07:43
oiaohmprurigro: what happens if you are logged into the same source matching.Oct 06 07:44
prurigrouniversity shoulda setup their vpn with encryptionOct 06 07:44
prurigroit should be end to endOct 06 07:44
prurigroa different terminal shell shouldn't even be able to see itOct 06 07:44
oiaohmprurigro: but its not ssh wrapping.Oct 06 07:44
prurigroyeah, but their vpnOct 06 07:44
oiaohmprurigro: same with vpn from same host.Oct 06 07:44
oiaohmprurigro: ie traffic snooping same end.Oct 06 07:44
prurigrowouldn't each terminal be a separate end point?Oct 06 07:45
oiaohmEncrypted protocols beat VPN.Oct 06 07:45
oiaohmprurigro: histroically no.Oct 06 07:45
oiaohmprurigro: because cgroup network splitting is only recent invention and basically not used.Oct 06 07:46
prurigroI'm a firm believer that the bottom network layer should be encryptedOct 06 07:46
oiaohmI am a firm believer that what should be encrypted should be encrypted when it enters the network stack anywhere.Oct 06 07:46
prurigroword, cjdns would work, though that's too recent to be the solution used in schoolsOct 06 07:46
prurigroI actually like the idea of TRESOR on that noteOct 06 07:47
prurigrothough I don't feel like maintaining my own kernel fork of Arch'sOct 06 07:47
prurigrotresor + cjdns would be encrypted for the local machine before entering the network stack, and then encrypted the moment it does thanks to cjdnsOct 06 07:48
prurigro(the latter being encrypted for the destination)Oct 06 07:49
prurigroI suppose at that point the only potential hole would be someone on the local machine with root access tcpdumpingOct 06 07:49
brendynI think there are latency critical tasks in various areas of science etc, such that mandatory encryption screws with that a bitOct 06 07:50
prurigrowhich would be solved by X encrypting the stream, trueOct 06 07:50
prurigroI woudln't really trust a remote X session to be real time.. hahaOct 06 07:50
prurigroalso, the spec says no encryption is mandatory; oiaohm wasn't suggesting to make encryption mandatory, just remove the "you can't do that"Oct 06 07:51
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oiaohmprurigro: exactly encryption should be optionalOct 06 07:51
oiaohmprurigro: not forbinOct 06 07:52
prurigroyeah- if people want every layer of their computer encrypted they should be able toOct 06 07:52
brendynif network providers encrypt, you have no choice but to deal with the consequencesOct 06 07:52
prurigroand ideally, people could use a encryption type of their choiceOct 06 07:52
oiaohmallowing tcpdumping should not magically destroy eveyrone privacy.Oct 06 07:52
prurigrotrueOct 06 07:53
oiaohmThinking you might need to tcpdump to debug issues.Oct 06 07:53
prurigrocourse, you want password + pub/priv key crypto if you wanna be post-quantum, so hopefully they'd include thatOct 06 07:53
prurigrono sense in encrypting if your packets can be opened up in a couple yearsOct 06 07:54
prurigrowell, a sense, but less of one than keeping your info secure for the foreseeable futureOct 06 07:54
oiaohmprurigro: couple of years might be enough secuirty.Oct 06 07:55
oiaohmLike to prevent insider trading.Oct 06 07:55
oiaohmprurigro: encrypted is a question of are the objectives.   Not all encryption has to have a long life.Oct 06 07:58
prurigrotrue, it depends what you're protecting ehOct 06 08:02
---rysiek|pl is now known as ysio|plOct 06 08:02
prurigroI'd rather not need to think how long I need something hidden for (if at all) for some more generic things like remote desktop thoughOct 06 08:03
brendyncomputers are probably the most frustrating thing in the universeOct 06 08:12
DaemonFCWhat the hell is up with edmunds.com?Oct 06 08:12
prurigros/frustrating/awesomeOct 06 08:13
DaemonFCI went to look at the reliability rating for the Ford Freestar, and it lists "no major problems".Oct 06 08:13
DaemonFCBut it seems like anyone that has actually owned one reports that the transmission burns out about every 60,000 miles and they have other issues as well.Oct 06 08:13
DaemonFCThe engine seems to be the only good thing on the van (figures, since it's the same one they put on the F-150).Oct 06 08:14
iophkhttp://torrentfreak.com/pirate-bay-founder-asks-danish-authorities-to-drop-hacking-case-131006/Oct 06 08:14
TechrightsBot-trtorrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay Founder Asks Danish Authorities to Drop Hacking Case | TorrentFreak  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhgq ]Oct 06 08:14
DaemonFCFord recalled a few hundred thousand of them to fix the transmission issue, but people that were paying to have the transmission repaired before the recall were paying about $2,800 for a rebuild.Oct 06 08:15
iophkIt would be remarkable if the Danes bring Gottfrid to court in spite of  the Swedish judgment. It would mean, in principle, that one country  after another could do this to him despite the acquittal,Oct 06 08:15
DaemonFCAs far as I can tell, Ford didn't recall the one that I was looking at, but I still don't want to risk any of my money on it.Oct 06 08:15
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brendynprurigro: i wonder if i could do it with emacs lol by loading the page to it, opening the js bullshit and then using macros to eat up the html and download stuffOct 06 08:39
prurigrobrendyn: why on earth would you use emacs for that? haha, grep and sed should be plentyOct 06 08:40
brendynbecause emacs can do everythingOct 06 08:40
brendynim still trying to figure out how to just open the god damn pageOct 06 08:40
prurigroyeah, but grep and sed can be loaded into a scriptOct 06 08:40
prurigroonce you get that, if you can output the text to your screen you're setOct 06 08:41
brendynIf I can actually get the generated html, then everything is downhill from thereOct 06 08:41
prurigrogrep -o -e is your friend (-o only returns the part that matches and -e is for regex)Oct 06 08:41
brendynah didnt know thatOct 06 08:41
prurigroso like \"http:\/\/domain[^\"]*\" or something, then snip the quotes with sedOct 06 08:42
prurigroor cutOct 06 08:42
brendynI'll do that later. Currently I just want to figure out how to get through the javascriptOct 06 08:42
brendynive managed to log in to the site with wget and save cookiesOct 06 08:42
prurigrolol, not sure wget can handle ajax tho-- if you're not using that webkit thingOct 06 08:43
brendynthe internet tells me i cant do itOct 06 08:43
prurigrooh well, I'd trust the internet thenOct 06 08:43
brendyn;(Oct 06 08:43
brendynnot sure how to use webkitOct 06 08:43
brendyni wonder can i get to a login site with that tooOct 06 08:43
prurigroyou can almost definitely pass parametersOct 06 08:44
prurigroits webkitOct 06 08:44
brendynhow does one click an imaginary button :)Oct 06 08:45
brendynsorry but i just really fucking hate solving these problems so i have to ask for lots of helpOct 06 08:47
prurigrobrendyn: the button likely triggers a function or post that you can scriptOct 06 08:56
brendynyeahOct 06 09:00
brendynim trying to figure out logging to the site with phantomjsOct 06 09:00
brendynanyway i have to sleep so ill try it laterOct 06 09:04
brendynthanksOct 06 09:04
prurigrohaha good luck!Oct 06 09:06
prurigrociaoOct 06 09:06
iophkhttp://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2013/10/uk-debuts-first-open-standard.htmlOct 06 09:13
TechrightsBot-trwww.computerweekly.com | UK debuts first open standards with fanfare of kazoos - Public Sector IT  [ http://ur1.ca/fuhyy ]Oct 06 09:13
iophk"The ICT Strategy said document formats would be in the first tranche of compulsory open standards."Oct 06 09:16
iophkbut how far did they really get?Oct 06 09:16
<--oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)Oct 06 09:42
DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiCAJ8ULnaIOct 06 10:02
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube Scam Caught on Tape! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui6v ]Oct 06 10:02
DaemonFChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_626867&feature=iv&src_vid=wiCAJ8ULnaI&v=Pf6KY6rrqYUOct 06 10:12
TechrightsBot-trwww.youtube.com | Jiffy Lube still scamming customers! - YouTube  [ http://ur1.ca/fui8i ]Oct 06 10:12
DaemonFCNobody should do an "engine flush".Oct 06 10:12
DaemonFCeverOct 06 10:12
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qu1j0t3http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/22595538/the-killing-of-tony-blair/posts/620363?at=BAh7B0kiCHVpZAY6BkVUaQKYgUkiC2V4cGlyeQY7AFRJIhgyMDEzLTExLTA2IDE2OjQ1OjMyBjsAVA%3D%3D--958c6efad5a3ca02e37d68e5c60a9ca15be2c538&ref=backer_project_updateOct 06 12:24
TechrightsBot-trwww.kickstarter.com | The Killing of Tony Blair by George Galloway MP  24 hours to go!  Kickstarter  [ http://ur1.ca/fuiv6 ]Oct 06 12:24
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Sosumihum, George Galloway, the guy that was for the "Arab Spring" even through it was just another CIA masterminded eventOct 06 13:44
Sosumito kick "ditactors" who weren't playing ball with the USOct 06 13:44
Sosumiso now, thx to the arab spring we have Libya turned into safe heaven for Al-CIAeda,Oct 06 13:46
qu1j0t3right, we should certainly blame GG for that.Oct 06 13:46
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SosumiTunisia into a meet the new boss, same or worst than the previous oneOct 06 13:46
SosumiEgipt and Syria got lucky after the general Sisi couped MorsiOct 06 13:47
Sosumiotherwise with Morsi and his british subservient Nuts Brotherhood we'd have got an egyptian incurssion into SyriaOct 06 13:48
Sosumiso yeah Georgie boy is now saving his dirty face, but just like Farage, no breaking, no breaking of the money power of the city of londonOct 06 13:51
Sosuminot to mention the whole free market demagogy, yeah derregulation so the big cartels can come and rape everyone's walletOct 06 13:53
Sosumigot to love them all, Ron Paul, Farage, Georgie boy, Fat Tony...Oct 06 13:55
Sosumiall work in different ways but they're all letalOct 06 13:55
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MinceRyeah, let's blame the free market for that :>Oct 06 14:28
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Sosumifree market without its checks and balances only enables the already established cartels to be predatory on small businesses and on the pplOct 06 15:37
Sosumiand it's the demagogy of free market that enables public and private sector to be in cahoots with each otherOct 06 15:38
MinceRfree market without its checks and balances is not a free marketOct 06 15:38
Sosumithanks to a thing called derregulationOct 06 15:38
Sosumiit's called anarcho-capitalismOct 06 15:40
MinceRi don't think that's what it's calledOct 06 15:40
Sosumino rules, no checks and balances and joe six pack gets screwed, as usualOct 06 15:41
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sebsebseb Oct 06 15:43
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Sosumihttp://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2013/10/06/ouch_microsoft_no_longer_recommends_their_own_security_essentials_anti-virus_packageOct 06 16:31
TechrightsBot-trwww.afterdawn.com | Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own Security Essentials anti-virus package - AfterDawn  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk2n ]Oct 06 16:31
SosumilulzOct 06 16:31
Sosumiin a parallel universe: Ouch: Microsoft no longer recommends their own operating systemOct 06 16:33
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Sosumibut ho well, AV software is kind of useless anywaysOct 06 16:35
MinceR:>Oct 06 16:35
MinceRespecially m$'sOct 06 16:36
Sosumiand symatec'sOct 06 16:36
MinceRtheir supposed anti-malware sofware stopped recognizing gator as malware when m$ was planning to buy clariaOct 06 16:36
MinceRthey are not just incompetent, they're evilOct 06 16:36
Sosumisymantec? well they're pretty badOct 06 16:37
MinceRi meant m$Oct 06 16:38
MinceRbut symantec is pretty horrible tooOct 06 16:38
SosumiM$ just likes to shoot themselves in the footOct 06 16:38
Sosumibut instead of using a handgun they use a bfg9000Oct 06 16:39
Sosumijust like the latest outlook patch broke part of the thingOct 06 16:41
Sosumior the new "puke" metro interfaceOct 06 16:42
MinceRhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/18/us-austria-water-idUSBRE98H0AG20130918Oct 06 16:49
TechrightsBot-trwww.reuters.com | Holy water in Austria unsafe to drink: researchers | Reuters  [ http://ur1.ca/fuk64 ]Oct 06 16:49
Sosumithey need to boil hell out of itOct 06 16:51
MinceR:>Oct 06 16:51
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MinceRhttp://cdn.meme.li/i/jees7.jpgOct 06 17:57
MinceRgnOct 06 18:15
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