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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: September 9th, 2018 – September 15th, 2018

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cubexyzok, no more SATA DVD as the boot driveSep 09 00:35
cubexyzhave to reload a new vector linux to replaced the old one :-/Sep 09 00:35
cubexyzBIOS immediately saw the ATAPI cdrom...Sep 09 00:36
cubexyza bit of a pity about alpine linux... I was making good progress with it but no glibc was a big problemSep 09 00:36
cubexyznot sure what do to about the loss of the ISA slotSep 09 00:37
cubexyza newer SCSI controller could workSep 09 00:38
cubexyzbut the good news is I get the KDE 3.5.10 stuff backSep 09 00:38
oiaohmcubexyz: that is why I have pata to scsi converter laying around.   So I can use Sata DVD instead of pata dvdSep 09 00:42
cubexyzwell, the old P3 motherboard wasn't going to last forever so I need some upgrade planSep 09 00:43
cubexyzand what in the world will happen with the old loki games on 64-bit linux I have no ideaSep 09 00:46
oiaohmThey have been run on 64 bit linux with the right runtime bits.Sep 09 00:46
cubexyzthis case had some unique features... clip-on bezels for the cdromSep 09 00:54
cubexyzI'm not sure if the repos are still going to work for old vector linuxSep 09 00:55
cubexyzguess we'll know soonSep 09 00:55
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cubexyzwow, kernel panic againSep 09 01:05
cubexyzno more vector linux it seemsSep 09 01:05
cubexyzsomething odd about the partition, hmmmSep 09 01:24
cubexyzoiaohm, I don't think it will boot the SATA hard drive either :-/Sep 09 01:43
cubexyznot funSep 09 01:43
cubexyzrepo works, but must boot from cd driveSep 09 01:56
oiaohmcubexyz: that does not supprise me.   As I said on old hardware I use pata to sata converters.  This also allows me to use sata harddrives on pata.Sep 09 01:58
oiaohmpci cards just don't see as solution that works for anything other than extra drives most of the time.Sep 09 01:59
MinceR 09 02:27
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MinceR 09 15:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Earth-Moon Fire PoleSep 09 15:18
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MinceR 09 16:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Full Frontal Nerdity by Aaron Williams - 10/24/2017Sep 09 16:12
MinceR 09 16:14
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XRevan86I wonder how Amish define which technology they approve and which not,Sep 09 17:06
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MinceRit's rather boneheadedSep 09 17:22
MinceRjust like cultists in generalSep 09 17:22
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MinceR 09 19:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ImgurSep 09 19:35
MinceR 09 19:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Full Frontal Nerdity by Aaron Williams - 11/02/2017Sep 09 19:49
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DaemonFC[m]I love how the articles mentioning that Microsoft will sell you End of Life security updates for Windows 7 act like this is the only alternative to having Windows 10 foisted on you. They don't mention the GNU/Linux system at all. Many distributions, like Ubuntu, are so easy to install these days that you can almost literally boot the live image and hit "Next, Next, Next" a bunch of times and never have to deal withSep 09 20:34
DaemonFC[m]Windows again.Sep 09 20:34
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MinceRubuntu is also about as broken as windowsSep 09 20:35
MinceRso they'll feel right at home!Sep 09 20:35
DaemonFC[m]It's not that bad. Sep 09 20:36
DaemonFC[m]I had to use Windows 10 for a little while and could barely stand it. Sep 09 20:37
DaemonFC[m]I haven't seen that many blue screens of death in a very long time. Windows 10 is VERY unstable. Sep 09 20:37
MinceRi also had to try to do work on ubuntu xenialSep 09 20:37
MinceRapt killed itself on distro upgradeSep 09 20:38
MinceRon the new install, it forgot to start the display managerSep 09 20:38
MinceRit also kept freezingSep 09 20:38
DaemonFC[m]That's an aside to all of the times where it decides to reboot despite you being in the middle of something, applying updates, the updates fail, it reboots, decides to apply the updates again, the updates break.....Sep 09 20:38
MinceRi gave up and use startxSep 09 20:38
MinceRbut it still likes to freeze on shutdownSep 09 20:38
MinceRbecause, you know, systemdSep 09 20:38
MinceRnow i just export the files to the ubuntu vm via nfs and do most of my work on funtooSep 09 20:39
MinceRjust a whole other worldSep 09 20:39
MinceRlendows vs unixSep 09 20:39
DaemonFC[m]Fedora is pretty stable on my computer.Sep 09 20:41
MinceRit wasn't on mineSep 09 20:42
MinceRit was the only system i ever saw xscreensaver crash onSep 09 20:42
MinceRand when it did, some gnome3 shit i never asked for came upSep 09 20:42
MinceRit was full of weird shit like thatSep 09 20:42
MinceRand then one day yum committed suicideSep 09 20:42
DaemonFC[m]Screen savers are not really very useful for many people today.Sep 09 20:43
MinceRit's also a screen lockerSep 09 20:43
DaemonFC[m]Keeping the monitor on uses quite a bit of power and especially when you're on a laptop, that's bad.Sep 09 20:43
MinceRand it can indeed turn the monitor offSep 09 20:43
DaemonFC[m]GNOME has a screen locker.Sep 09 20:43
MinceRin fact, that's how i turn it off on my laptopSep 09 20:43
MinceRi don't use gnomeSep 09 20:43
MinceRbesides, gnome's screen saver/locker is a shitty xscreensaver cloneSep 09 20:44
DaemonFC[m]It doesn't really need xscreensaver, and xscreensaver doesn't really have a secure way of locking the screen as it depends on X.Sep 09 20:44
MinceRyeah, it just needs xscreensaver's display hacks :>Sep 09 20:44
MinceRuh, the only way to securely lock the screen in X depends on XSep 09 20:45
DaemonFC[m]It's been shown repeatedly that there are no guarantees when you try to lock the screen with X because there is no way of telling X that the screen locker is special and that nothing should be able to draw on top of it.Sep 09 20:45
DaemonFC[m]It's also easy to crash the screen locker and get into someone's desktop when it's running on X.Sep 09 20:45
MinceRwell, come up with a viable replacement for X, thenSep 09 20:45
MinceRthere's also vlock but you wouldn't like it, as it isn't "modern" :>Sep 09 20:45
DaemonFC[m]In Fedora 29, there's been some more work on XWayland. Sep 09 20:46
MinceRyaySep 09 20:46
DaemonFC[m]So the performance issues should be pretty much over by then.Sep 09 20:46
MinceRtoo bad wayland is the wrong conceptSep 09 20:46
MinceRthey don't feel like doing SSD, pointer grabbing or screenshotsSep 09 20:46
DaemonFC[m]The good news is that the Fedora 29 beta should be out this month.Sep 09 20:46
MinceRi wonder what else they didn't feel like doingSep 09 20:46
MinceRwhy is that good news?Sep 09 20:46
DaemonFC[m]Barring any issues with it, I may just go ahead and upgrade early.Sep 09 20:46
MinceRit will be garbage just like everything else from ratcrapSep 09 20:46
DaemonFC[m]Because of the new release with the improvements to XWayland performance.Sep 09 20:47
MinceRoh right, they also didn't feel like letting you run their shit without cancerdSep 09 20:47
DaemonFC[m]Finally, games won't drag ass if you don't log into GNOME on X11.Sep 09 20:47
DaemonFC[m]Some apps will depend on X indefinitely, so I doubt that we'll be seeing the end of XWayland anytime soon.Sep 09 20:48
DaemonFC[m]It'll probably be there for compatibility for a decade or more from now.Sep 09 20:48
MinceRi doubt it will implement features that need wayland and which the wayland developers declared to be hereticalSep 09 20:49
MinceRbut the saddest thing about this is that X is also maintained by these peopleSep 09 20:49
MinceRwho don't understand XSep 09 20:49
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cubexyzoiaohm, I did get it working Sep 10 01:53
cubexyzthe method:Sep 10 01:53
cubexyzboot to IDE CDROM from vector linux cd, then specify to boot to /dev/sda1 Sep 10 01:54
cubexyzI guess booting from the CD loads the necessary moduleSep 10 01:55
cubexyzmaybe I could have booted to IDE CDROM then booted to the DVD driveSep 10 01:58
cubexyzdidn't think of that at the timeSep 10 01:58
oiaohmcubexyz: lot less painful if you just make sata drive be pata drive.Sep 10 01:58
oiaohmdo consider investing in one of those cards.Sep 10 01:59
cubexyzand even worse, my gigabyte coreboot motherboard diedSep 10 02:04
cubexyzall that work... I suppose could try to find another motherboard the sameSep 10 02:04
cubexyzoiaohm, I assume the adapter would have to have the molex power connectorSep 10 02:25
cubexyzprobably worth having one at leastSep 10 02:25
cubexyzthe key repeat is also too fast on the P4Sep 10 02:34
amarsh04my oldest pc is now pentium-d basedSep 10 05:20
amarsh04reports: DMI:  /8I945P Pro, BIOS F10 04/06/2006Sep 10 05:20
amarsh04and the newer pc is still from 2009Sep 10 05:21
amarsh04kernel 4.19.0-rc3 seems niceSep 10 05:23
amarsh04had some machine shutdowns building the kernel on the older pc during some earlier 4.18.0 - 4.19.0-rcX stagesSep 10 05:25
cubexyzthe Intel D845GERG2 Celeron is from 2002Sep 10 05:43
cubexyzit's only a year newer than the P3 :)Sep 10 05:44
cubexyzthe Dell GX110 is 2001Sep 10 05:44
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schestowitz And I guess today is about the last day forSep 10 06:40
schestowitzregular citizens in the EU to try to contact their representatives:Sep 10 06:40
schestowitz 10 06:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | open...: Please Write (Yes, Again - Sorry) to Your MEPs to Stop the EU Copyright Directive from Seriously Harming the InternetSep 10 06:40
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oiaohmcubexyz: Not exactly molex it a floppy power connector.Sep 10 08:14
oiaohmcubexyz:  << I use the bi directional.   Pata to sata converters.   So I can use them to convert ide drive to sata controller or 2 sata drives to a single ide controller port.Sep 10 08:19
oiaohmThere are such things a single drive converters as well.  To turn a sata drive into a pata one.Sep 10 08:21
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cubexyzoiaohm, I believe those are called berg connectorsSep 10 08:32
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MinceR 10 20:22
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cubexyzyeah slackware 14.2 has a few issues I don't likeSep 10 21:23
cubexyzthat's why I'm maintaining all these different eras of Linux, BSD and old UnixSep 10 21:24
MinceRcurrent works better for meSep 10 21:24
cubexyzno single distro does everything I want, so....Sep 10 21:24 you use bedrock? :>Sep 10 21:24
cubexyzactually noSep 10 21:25
cubexyzbut the concept looks interestingSep 10 21:26
cubexyzI thought alpine linux was interesting and everything  I wrote compiled with musl but many many other things did notSep 10 21:27
cubexyzI keep track of all the different versions, what compiled on which distro without problems, very useful Sep 10 21:29
MinceR 10 21:56
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XRevan86MinceR: You keep giving links to that websiteSep 10 23:27
XRevan86and I'm too lazy to enable VPN just for itSep 10 23:27
XRevan86 that's pretty spartan, BTWSep 10 23:30
XRevan86Not a glimpse of HTML.Sep 10 23:30
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MinceRlolSep 10 23:34
MinceRi wonder how did Aaron offend putler or his bootlickersSep 10 23:35
MinceRmaybe one of the commenters didSep 10 23:35
XRevan86MinceR: It is he who blocks, not the other way aroundSep 10 23:35
MinceRwell, i can sort of understand thatSep 10 23:36
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XRevan86I suppose. Geoblocking still sucks.Sep 10 23:37
MinceR 10 23:50
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schestowitz<li><h5><a href="" rel="nofollow">Doing One Thing, Well: The UNIX Philosophy</a></h5>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitz<blockquote>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitz <p>Good design is crucial for success. Whether that’s good design of a piece of software, infrastructure like a railroad or power grid, or even something relatively simple like a flag, without good design your project is essentially doomed. Although you might be able to build a workable one-off electronics project that’s a rat’s nest of wires, or a prototype of something that gets the job done but isn’t user-friendly or scalable, Sep 11 13:30
schestowitzfor a large-scale project a set of good design principles from the start is key.Sep 11 13:30
schestowitz </p> <p>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitzAs for Unix, its creators set up a design philosophy based around simplicity from the very beginning. The software was built around a few guiding principles that were easy to understand and implement. First, specific pieces of software should be built to do one thing and do that one thing well. Second, the programs should be able to work together effortlessly, meaning inputs and outputs are usually text. With those two simple ideas, Sep 11 13:30
schestowitzcomputing became less complicated and more accessible, leading to a boom in computer science and general purpose computing in the 1970s and 80s. </p>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitz</blockquote>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitz</li>Sep 11 13:30
schestowitzsystemd...Sep 11 13:31
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oiaohmschestowitz: Unix philosophy is not that cut and dried if it was there would be complexity of shell.Sep 11 14:15
MinceRwatch oiaohm try to fit that massive hairball into the unix philosophySep 11 14:16
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 11 14:17
oiaohmMinceR:  << there is more than 1 unix philosophy.Sep 11 14:20
schestowitzxenixSep 11 14:21
MinceRequivocation for the glory of red hat and microsoftSep 11 14:22
oiaohmMinceR: "Worse is better" is a very interesting one.    As it explains Unix monolithic kernel that does not fit into the "one thing well" mantra.Sep 11 14:23
MinceRyou can check out the attempts at a multiserver microkernel systemSep 11 14:24
MinceRand how they all failedSep 11 14:24
MinceRthen again, plan9 has a pretty small monolithic kernelSep 11 14:24
oiaohmDo one thing well mantra suite microkernel.Sep 11 14:25
MinceRindeedSep 11 14:25
MinceRbut they don't work wellSep 11 14:25
MinceRand the hurd project is implodingSep 11 14:25
oiaohmWorse is better is the only one of the Unix philosophy's that in fact manages to cover everything about Unix. Sep 11 14:25
MinceRit's tongue in cheek, thoughSep 11 14:26
oiaohmThe shell on unix was very quickly doing more and more as well.   Like ls, cd... these can all be independant programs very quickly they came one program.Sep 11 14:27
XRevan86I heard Genode works pretty okaySep 11 14:27
MinceRdepends on which shellSep 11 14:27
MinceRthere are several shells availableSep 11 14:27
XRevan86And this bugger is based on a microkernel.Sep 11 14:27
MinceRshells aren't special, unlike in that broken monstrosity known as VMSSep 11 14:28
MinceRand unlike init systemsSep 11 14:28
XRevan86> Fuchsia is based on a new microkernel called "Zircon".Sep 11 14:29
XRevan86Symbian was based on a microkernel.Sep 11 14:29
MinceRsymbian's deadSep 11 14:29
oiaohmWorse is better is that what ever path you take it should be about reducing complexity of development so in theory improving over all reliability.Sep 11 14:29
XRevan86MinceR: Probably not because of the microkernelSep 11 14:29
MinceRindeedSep 11 14:29
MinceRit died because of their lunatic stance on code signingSep 11 14:30
oiaohmsystemd could be seen as an attempt of worse is better to make something without the development complexity that sysvinit and upstart was being.Sep 11 14:31
oiaohmNot everything attempting in the worse is better model is successufl.Sep 11 14:32
MinceRit could be, by a total headcaseSep 11 14:32
oiaohmMinceR: its not like under close inspection the idea of using sysvinit on a Linux kernel was exactly sane either.   You take a init system design for sysv that does not recycle PID numbers and sysv has soild tracking of what started what then you put it on Linux that 1 recycles PID and 2 does not have soild tracking of what started what.Sep 11 14:35
oiaohmAt some point a init system that suited Linux kernel model had to be made.Sep 11 14:36
MinceRah yes, we needed an "init system" with a uefi bootloader built inSep 11 14:36
oiaohmReally naming init program systemd the same as the collection of applications systemd I agree is stupid.     Its like as if Gnu Core Utils was named catSep 11 14:40
XRevan86And if it all were stored in one cat.gitSep 11 14:40
MinceRand people insisted it's a file printing/concatenating utilitySep 11 14:41
MinceRand you couldn't use any other gnu core util without having cat installedSep 11 14:41
MinceRand you couldn't use any other cat implementation while it was installedSep 11 14:41
MinceRand people broke other projects to lock their users into itSep 11 14:41
oiaohmMost of the programs in systemd application collection will work as individual applications.Sep 11 14:42
XRevan86> and people broke other projects to lock their users into itSep 11 14:42
oiaohmand embedded developers do replace them with their own versions.Sep 11 14:42
XRevan86MinceR: That actually does happen %)Sep 11 14:42
XRevan86MinceR: Lots of projects depend on GNU coreutils specifically.Sep 11 14:42
MinceRyeah, you have many "individual applications" for the purpose of complaining that they can do nothing because you're not running systemdSep 11 14:43
oiaohmgnu cat has a lot of extra command line options that posix standard does not require cat to have.Sep 11 14:43
MinceRi always wanted such applicationsSep 11 14:43
oiaohmSame with most of the programs in core utils.Sep 11 14:43
MinceRgnu cat will work even if installed on a different pathSep 11 14:43
MinceRand it won't mind what PID it runs asSep 11 14:43
MinceRor what user it runs asSep 11 14:43
oiaohmMinceR:  supprise systemd does not have to run as PID1.   As long as what is starting as PID1 starts the systemd binary with --system it will start up the system.Sep 11 14:46
oiaohmSystemd was designed very much like SMF including allowing more compacted init before it.Sep 11 14:47
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MinceRthere was an explicit check for the pid somewhereSep 11 14:48
MinceRbut who cares, it's not like anything can convince oiaohm of anythingSep 11 14:48
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Security Leftovers []Sep 11 14:48
MinceRhe's either paid to shill systemd, bound by cognitive dissonance, or bothSep 11 14:48
oiaohmMinceR: --system turns off that checkSep 11 14:49
oiaohmMinceR: it been there since the first version of systemd it been used in the systemd QA system the complete time.Sep 11 14:49
MinceRah yes, the famous "QA" system that can't even catch the whole shebang being unable to bootSep 11 14:50
oiaohmYes to be execpted thinking the early QA was not booting real system.Sep 11 14:50
MinceRpresumably it tested more important things to an "init system" like the built-in ntp clientSep 11 14:53
MinceRif only you guys put all this effort into redesigning and reimplementing cancerd, maybe it would be useful for somethingSep 11 14:54
oiaohmRunning custom made service files testing out where they thought here would be problems.  Of course does not match up to what happens when you give it real world service files.Sep 11 14:54
oiaohmSo it was attempting to test the system.   method was very questionable.Sep 11 14:54
MinceRhell, gnu cat doesn't even complain or exit if a half-baked incomplete kernel feature is missing or disabledSep 11 14:55
oiaohmNot exactly true cat will fail if you have too old of glibc.   And newer version of glibc it requries can require kernel features.Sep 11 14:56
oiaohmSorry there is not as much difference as you are attempting to make out.Sep 11 14:57
MinceRwow, i didn't know glibc was part of the kernelSep 11 14:57
MinceRthanks, oiaohm!Sep 11 14:57
XRevan86glibc requires Linux 3.2Sep 11 14:57
oiaohmcat has indirect dependancy.Sep 11 14:57
MinceRi also didn't know glibc depended on cgroupsSep 11 14:57
oiaohmOne day it might.Sep 11 14:57
oiaohmover the years the kernel features glibc has required has been increasing.Sep 11 14:58
MinceRthat's a new low, even for youSep 11 14:58
MinceRlet's make init depend on cgroups because glibc might one day depend on it too!Sep 11 14:58
MinceRwho knows, maybe one day cgroups will be usableSep 11 14:58
oiaohmcgroups was a classic chicken and egg problem.Sep 11 14:59
oiaohmThe lack of tracking of what started what has been a long term Linux kernel problem.Sep 11 14:59
MinceRcan't design cgroups properly first and make every system depend on it second?Sep 11 15:00
XRevan86 11 15:00
oiaohmNote I said chicken and egg problem.  How do you know you have a working cgroup system if nothing is using it in great volumes.Sep 11 15:00
oiaohmLike before systemd cgroup v1 was thought to be working.Sep 11 15:01
MinceRi review the designSep 11 15:01
MinceRi think about some common use casesSep 11 15:01
MinceRand i realize that i can't expect a frozen cgroup to handle a SIGTERM properlySep 11 15:01
oiaohmSo far that was exactly what was done with cgroup v1.Sep 11 15:01
MinceRand i decide whether i can live with that or notSep 11 15:01
MinceRthis is not what poettering's cabal did, howeverSep 11 15:02
oiaohmfrozen cgroup handle of SIGTERM was not exactly the problem.Sep 11 15:02
MinceRthey rushed in, made everything in cancerd depend on cgroups, _then_ realized the above problem exists, and they ignored it and just plain sent SIGKILLSep 11 15:02
oiaohmIt was the fact programs could be in multi cgroups with only 1 frozen.Sep 11 15:02
MinceRisn't the point of freezing a cgroup that processes can't run?Sep 11 15:03
oiaohmSo a single PID could have up to 12 cgroup enteries under cgroup v1.Sep 11 15:03
MinceRotherwise they could spawn new processesSep 11 15:03
oiaohmcgroup v1 is insanely stupid it built around the idea of do one thing well.Sep 11 15:03
oiaohmSo you could freeze a cgroup and that would be like just freeze IO access.Sep 11 15:03
MinceRRed Hat® -- Putting the cart before the horse since 1993.™Sep 11 15:03
oiaohmOr freeze memory access.Sep 11 15:04
oiaohmBasically whole stack of insanity.Sep 11 15:04
MinceRyet poettering's cargo cult used it to kill process treesSep 11 15:04
oiaohmWhat mostly worked as long as you never frozen anything.Sep 11 15:04
MinceRcgroups® -- the kernel feature that works perfectly, so long as you don't use it.™Sep 11 15:05
oiaohmThat was exactly the problem with cgroup v1Sep 11 15:05
oiaohmOn paper it appeared to work properly.Sep 11 15:05
MinceRstill, none of this would have mattered if the cult didn't force it into "stable" releases of every major formerly GNU/Linux distroSep 11 15:05
oiaohmOnce  you real world tested it came very clear it did not work at all.Sep 11 15:05
MinceRbut they did.Sep 11 15:05
MinceRsee, this is what testing is forSep 11 15:06
MinceRyou do testing _first_ and you push stuff into "stable" releases _afterward_, once you know it works!Sep 11 15:06
MinceRinstead of destroying organizations from within using entryism just so you can shove your half-baked shit down users' throatsSep 11 15:06
oiaohmLike the idea to use cgroups is right.   The idea to push it out before cgroups had been well and truly tested with real workloads was horriblely bad.   Like cgroup v2 has most of the same features as cgroup v1 excepte now a PID can only own to 1 cgroup.Sep 11 15:07
oiaohmNot 12 of o my no of cgroup v1Sep 11 15:08
oiaohmMinceR: do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features". << its that bit that made cgroup v1 a failure.Sep 11 15:13
MinceRso, are you saying that cgroup v1 did not work well because it did something well?Sep 11 15:14
MinceRthat suddenly makes the systemd design philosophy much clearerSep 11 15:14
MinceRthey should have made this publicSep 11 15:14
oiaohmIf you only used like the memory controller or the PID controller.... cgroup v1 worked perfectly.Sep 11 15:14
MinceRsystemd® -- works well because it does nothing well!™Sep 11 15:14
oiaohmcgroup v1 comes apart once you attempt to use its subsystems in a unified way.Sep 11 15:15
MinceRof only my ubuntu xenial vm knew that, maybe then it wouldn't keep freezing in shutdownSep 11 15:15
MinceRand claim everything is "OK"Sep 11 15:15
MinceRs/of/if/Sep 11 15:15
oiaohmsystemd attempted to put security around services by using multi cgroup subsystems at the same time.Sep 11 15:15
MinceRsystemd attempted to kill unix by using entryism and politicsSep 11 15:16
oiaohmEven docker and other things with cgroup v1 were doing a lot of voodoo to avoid it nightmares.Sep 11 15:16
MinceRdocker is a pile of shit as well, even if for partly different reasonsSep 11 15:16
MinceRlike its refusal to talk to the proxy it was configured to useSep 11 15:16
oiaohmdocker on cgroup v1 and systemd on cgroup v1 set off the same set of failures if you push docker the right way include complete system lock ups.Sep 11 15:17
MinceRare LXC and LXD shit like that too?Sep 11 15:17
oiaohmYepSep 11 15:17
MinceRgreatSep 11 15:17
oiaohmNo one was pushing cgroup v1 hard enough before systemdSep 11 15:17
oiaohmto make it flaws in fact show.Sep 11 15:18
MinceRthen again, since cancerd has kernel feature requirements, i wouldn't want to contain lendows in containers that shared a kernel image with the host anywaySep 11 15:18
MinceRwhat about linux-vserver, virtuozzo and openvz?Sep 11 15:19
oiaohmopenvz pushed the wrongs ways will fail in cgroup v1 issues.Sep 11 15:20
oiaohm linux-vserver, virtuozzo I have never checked.Sep 11 15:20
XRevan86virtuozzo is openvzSep 11 15:20
oiaohmPart of cgroup v1 design comes out of Linux-vserverSep 11 15:21
XRevan86virtuozzo to openvz is what gitlab ee is to gitlab ce, or what nginx plus is to nginxSep 11 15:21
XRevan86open core stuffSep 11 15:21
oiaohmMinceR: so it fairly much everything doing containers on Linux had major issue that just were not noticed until systemd appeared and was running straight into the defects.Sep 11 15:22
MinceRat the same time, systemd also greatly worsened a major issue with containersSep 11 15:22
MinceR(the requirement to share a kernel image)Sep 11 15:23
XRevan86> the requirement to share a kernel imageSep 11 15:23
XRevan86huh?Sep 11 15:23
MinceRXRevan86: containers use the same kernel image as the hostSep 11 15:23
XRevan86MinceR: They are literally running under the same kernel.Sep 11 15:23
MinceRsince systemd has increasingly insane requirements of the kernel, there's a risk of those requirements affecting the hostSep 11 15:23
MinceRXRevan86: yes, that's what i'm sayingSep 11 15:24
oiaohmsystemd got another bit of stupid fixed.  cgroup v1 said you could only have 1 program controlling your cgroups at a time.Sep 11 15:24
XRevan86MinceR: That's what containers do. They are not virtual machines.Sep 11 15:24
MinceRyes, i knowSep 11 15:24
XRevan86why would they need an extra image?Sep 11 15:24
XRevan86they don't need to boot itSep 11 15:24
MinceRbut it means that if i'm running a sane, lean kernel on the host, i can't run lendows in containersSep 11 15:24
MinceRmaybe i should look into UMLSep 11 15:24
MinceRit's a relatively soft kind of paravirtualization, iircSep 11 15:25
oiaohmTo be correct if you don't have all the features systemd wants in the kernel you cannot run most form of containers.Sep 11 15:25
MinceRmaybe it can handle memory usage sanelySep 11 15:25
XRevan86MinceR: Because systemd needs features from it?Sep 11 15:25
MinceRbecause systemd tries to control how my kernel is configuredSep 11 15:25
MinceRand we've already seen what happens if someone allows systemd to control something.Sep 11 15:25
oiaohmalso you lose the ablity to track processes.Sep 11 15:25
oiaohmunless you want to try the insanity of ptracing processes all the time.Sep 11 15:26
MinceRbefore the systemd apocalypse, we had dozens of distributions which would behave sanely in a containerSep 11 15:26
MinceRnow we only have a handfulSep 11 15:26
XRevan86MinceR: Like mentioned before, if you have a vanilla Linux 2.6.32 on host and you run a container from it with a new distro, odds are glibc will fail first.Sep 11 15:28
MinceRnew kernels can also have sane configurationsSep 11 15:29
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XRevan86MinceR: Like cgroups disabled?Sep 11 15:30
MinceRyesSep 11 15:31
MinceRor like (in a possible future scenario) kdbus missingSep 11 15:31
oiaohmkdbus is dead.Sep 11 15:31
MinceRor some other horrible monstrosity that they'd be forcing nextSep 11 15:31
oiaohmdbus1 might be dead as well.Sep 11 15:31
MinceRkdbus only died because Linus stopped itSep 11 15:32
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MinceRnobody else in charge of Linux realized or cared that it was shitSep 11 15:32
MinceRand red hat still wanted to ship it and have systemd depend on itSep 11 15:32
XRevan86oiaohm: dbus-broker?Sep 11 15:32
MinceRbus1, not dbusSep 11 15:33
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oiaohmXRevan86: yep dbus-broker Sep 11 15:33
oiaohmAs stupid as it sounds bus1 might die because of dbus-broker that started as part of the project to rework the dbus-deamon.Sep 11 15:33
MinceRwhat's dbus-broker?Sep 11 15:34
oiaohm dbus-broker is a dbus-deamon writting to take full advantage of the IPC features the Linux kernel already has.Sep 11 15:35
MinceRwhich ones?Sep 11 15:35
MinceRTIPC? netlink? TCP/IP? unix domain sockets? something else?Sep 11 15:36
oiaohmMinceR: its your normal AF_UNIX  sockets with with all the Linux added features. Sep 11 15:42
oiaohmSo same stuff dbus-deamon was using limited to generic posix with added bits of dbus-deamon unique stupidity.Sep 11 15:43
oiaohmMost insane thing about dbus-deamon is it required this rule  "No IPC to implement IPC"   So yes dbus-deamon uses dbus itself to implement parts of the dbus protocol???? Kinda explains why dbus-deamon sometimes dead locks.Sep 11 15:45
oiaohmsystemd has been a path to on cgroups and dbus of having to face up to how bad they have been.Sep 11 15:46
oiaohmMinceR: scary point is dbus-broker is faster than kdbus ever was.   All it took was cleaning up the thing Linus called the hair ball.Sep 11 15:49
MinceRnothing surprising about thatSep 11 15:49
MinceRAF_UNIX is unix domain sockets, isn't it?Sep 11 15:50
oiaohmYep the traditional Unix domian sockets with all the Linux extentions.Sep 11 15:51
oiaohmOf course that could be a problem to make it work on something like freebsd.Sep 11 15:51
MinceRnot a problem to them, they'll just say it's linux onlySep 11 15:52
oiaohmIt could be made more generic and still perform better than dbus-deamon.Sep 11 15:53
oiaohmdbus-broker also drops the idea of sending dbus communication over tcp/ip that dbus-deamon supports that is up in there in the highly insane.Sep 11 15:54
MinceRit seems that many things perform better than dbus-daemonSep 11 15:54
oiaohmIts not hard dbus-deamon makes systemd bad code look good.Sep 11 15:55
oiaohmThat is systemd init and service management.Sep 11 15:55
oiaohmI still could not believe that you could have dbus-deamon enter a never ending loop of self trigger dbus calls.Sep 11 15:57
oiaohmthey found that when they were making dbus-brokerSep 11 15:57
MinceRye of little faithSep 11 15:57
oiaohmWho would think someone writing a IPC would make the IPC use it self.Sep 11 15:58
MinceRwhy, it's the most effective way to implement itSep 11 15:58
oiaohmIts like straight up 100 percent sure path to dead locks.Sep 11 15:58
oiaohmThis is the path of fail  dbus reqest come in need to check security send a dbus message to check security now that message need to check security send another dbus message to check security.... You can see where this is going. Sep 11 15:59
oiaohmNot only eat you out of ram but 100 percent sure crash the service.Sep 11 16:00
oiaohmI like the dbus-deamon description for being incorrect "a lightweight ipc mechanism"Sep 11 16:02
MinceRdef dbus(*args, **kwargs): dbus(*args, **kwargs)Sep 11 16:03
oiaohmBoth dbus and cgroups were suffering from execess complexity.Sep 11 16:04
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: What the gamer means to open source coder culture []Sep 11 16:11
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #KDE A Look at #Okular and at #KMail []Sep 11 16:19
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cubexyzplan 9 was OKSep 11 23:25
cubexyzall the action is now mainly Linux and Linux derivativesSep 11 23:27
cubexyzwin10 is antithetical to my use cases...Sep 11 23:29
cubexyzwhat support will they have for older PCs? NoneSep 11 23:30
cubexyznot even worth thinking aboutSep 11 23:30
cubexyzyeah, you're probably not going to want to browse the net with abacoSep 11 23:31
cubexyzin the last two years I actually did some preservation work with old versions of firefoxSep 11 23:34
cubexyzfirefox 16 in particularSep 11 23:34
cubexyzeverything always goes back to glibc supportSep 11 23:35
cubexyzglibc too old? You can't run (newer/newish) firefoxSep 11 23:35
cubexyzbut then you're locked out of a lot of other good things as wellSep 11 23:35
cubexyzBerkeley is important because of BIND, ftp, ntp, etcSep 11 23:48
cubexyzthe first 32-bit port to Vax...Sep 11 23:48
cubexyzIRC itself was invented in SunOS which is derived from BSDSep 11 23:49
cubexyzDEC helped with BIND btwSep 11 23:50
XRevan86 12 00:46
<--mmu_man has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)Sep 12 00:55
cubexyzsome of that is windows specificSep 12 00:56
cubexyzI don't use ccleaner :)Sep 12 00:56
XRevan86cubexyz: IndeedSep 12 00:57
XRevan86cubexyz: Still pretty cool of a page :)Sep 12 00:58
cubexyzthere was a problem with ftp and plain text passwordsSep 12 00:59
cubexyznot sure if that was ever fixedSep 12 00:59
*XRevan86 looks at the new UI in Chromium 69Sep 12 01:00
XRevan86It's amazing… how they picked up Australis from the Mozilla's trash bin.Sep 12 01:00
XRevan86very aesthetically unpleasingSep 12 01:00
XRevan86I never liked AustralisSep 12 01:00
XRevan86At least Google didn't australis the menu, only the tabs…Sep 12 01:01
cubexyzjust use seamonkey insteadSep 12 01:02
cubexyzor palemoon... Sep 12 01:02
XRevan86cubexyz: Rather than the browser I don't actually use and only looked at because of the recent news article about the release? :)Sep 12 01:02
XRevan86It just amuses me that the idea recently rejected by Mozilla (wave-like curvy tabs) got picked up by Google.Sep 12 01:03
cubexyzwell I can't remember which browser you do use :)Sep 12 01:04
XRevan86cubexyz: Well, Firefox.Sep 12 01:04
cubexyzokSep 12 01:04
cubexyzI don't like the fact that modern browsers run turtle slow on old PCsSep 12 01:04
XRevan86Luckily I have a relatively new oneSep 12 01:05
XRevan86just 9 years old :)Sep 12 01:05
cubexyzhence my resurrection of ff 16Sep 12 01:05
cubexyznewer than my 2008 E5200 at leastSep 12 01:06
XRevan86one year newer %)Sep 12 01:07
cubexyzno, when I say old I really mean oldSep 12 01:07
cubexyzlike 2001 or olderSep 12 01:07
XRevan86cubexyz: Yeah, I get that.Sep 12 01:07
XRevan86Firefox Australis: 12 01:07
XRevan86Chromium 69: 12 01:07
cubexyzas I told oiaohm years ago I was hoping to reach 20 years, some of my computers have been working since 1998Sep 12 01:08
XRevan86Luckily I also use Numix as the screenshot from WebUpd8 I foundSep 12 01:08
cubexyzand of course there's the classic computing stuffSep 12 01:08
XRevan86Fun fact: that annoying profile management button in Chromium 69 is not possible to disable.Sep 12 01:09
cubexyzTyan and IBM both must have used high quality capacitors in their motherboardsSep 12 01:10
cubexyzI could just be lucky thoughSep 12 01:11
cubexyzbut it seems if you got stuff from before 1999 it can last a very long timeSep 12 01:12
XRevan86My motherboard is Gigabyte and my main HDD is SeagateSep 12 01:12
XRevan86and they work fineSep 12 01:12
XRevan86ain't I lucky? :)Sep 12 01:12
cubexyzI have some Seagate ST340810A's from 2001 that run 24/7Sep 12 01:13
cubexyzI monitor all that stuffSep 12 01:13
cubexyzusing a UPS should helpSep 12 01:13
XRevan86cubexyz: That is impressiveSep 12 01:14
cubexyzthe Quantum SCSI drive for the amiga 500 is from 1990Sep 12 01:15
cubexyzand I've heard that some of the old DEC stuff... ummm RK05's Sep 12 01:15
cubexyzthose are from 1974... and a few still workSep 12 01:16
cubexyzfar less density you seeSep 12 01:16
XRevan86there's the survivor bias here, thoguhSep 12 01:17
XRevan86thoughSep 12 01:17
cubexyzsome of the ST340810A's were in storage for about a decadeSep 12 01:18
cubexyzso they weren't running since 2001Sep 12 01:18
cubexyzsame with the old Quantum LP42SSep 12 01:20
cubexyzI only turn it on once or twice a yearSep 12 01:20
cubexyzum, LP52S that isSep 12 01:21
cubexyzXRevan86, my original DSL modem still works too :)Sep 12 01:21
cubexyzthat's from 2004Sep 12 01:21
XRevan86And I just don't have DSL %)Sep 12 01:22
cubexyzI wonder if the current motherboards even have floppy connectors, or parallel and serial portsSep 12 01:32
XRevan86cubexyz: EIA-232 is still hip, so a serial port – probablySep 12 01:33
XRevan86cubexyz: PATA's – noSep 12 01:33
cubexyzI got a huge stack of 50-pin SCSI drives still :)Sep 12 01:33
XRevan86This 2009 one I have feels like one of the last ones that do have a PATA slot.Sep 12 01:34
XRevan86And it doesn't have a floppy one.Sep 12 01:34
XRevan86so 2011-2012 likely don't have that eitherSep 12 01:35
cubexyzcould be the desktop market is shrinking a bitSep 12 01:36
XRevan86cubexyz: I don't know, not that many people care about PATASep 12 01:36
XRevan86when there's no demand, there's no supplySep 12 01:37
cubexyzmaybe they even phased out PCISep 12 01:37
XRevan86cubexyz: no, that one is still widely usedSep 12 01:37
XRevan86cubexyz: So is the VGA connectorSep 12 01:38
XRevan86and so do DE-9'sSep 12 01:38
XRevan86The VGA connector is used with projectors a lotSep 12 01:39
XRevan86I'm not sure whySep 12 01:39
XRevan86and DVI is apparently being phased outSep 12 01:39
XRevan86In favour of DisplayPort and proprietary HDMISep 12 01:40
cubexyz:-/Sep 12 01:40
XRevan86So VGA outlived DVISep 12 01:41
XRevan86who would've thoughtSep 12 01:41
cubexyzlots of VGA LCDs I'm sureSep 12 01:41
XRevan86cubexyz: If by that you mean that they provide a VGA portSep 12 01:42
cubexyzyesSep 12 01:42
XRevan86cubexyz: of courseSep 12 01:42
cubexyzof course my stuff is old, so I'm not sure what the deal is nowSep 12 01:42
XRevan86cubexyz: But connecting one with it won't be wiseSep 12 01:42
XRevan86especially if it is high resolutionSep 12 01:42
XRevan86cubexyz: So they do have the port, mostly, but one should rather use DisplayPort, DVI or HDMI, if possible.Sep 12 01:43
XRevan86cubexyz: This got me wondering if my info is actually old as well :)Sep 12 01:45
*XRevan86 goes to the Acer websiteSep 12 01:45
XRevan86cubexyz: The models they show on their main page are claimed to have "Inputs: DisplayPort, HDMI, USB type C"Sep 12 01:46
XRevan86cubexyz: Notice the lack of both DVI and VGASep 12 01:47
XRevan86BTW, I'd prefer DisplayPort over HDMI because it's not proprietary, and I'd prefer HDMI over USB type C, because I don't trust USB type C connectors.Sep 12 01:48
XRevan86same order as on their website :)Sep 12 01:49
*XRevan86 looked at some cheaper model, and it has DVI instead of USB type CSep 12 01:51
cubexyzultra-dma 100/66/33 that means I can use IDE still Sep 12 01:51
cubexyzI thinkSep 12 01:51
cubexyzthis is on the ASUS P5KPL-AM boxSep 12 01:52
XRevan86So maybe DVI outlives VGA at least on the monitor side of thingsSep 12 01:52
cubexyzthe 2008 motherboard had a floppy connector, parallel, IDE, PS/2Sep 12 01:54
cubexyzperhaps it was one of the last of that kindSep 12 01:54
XRevan86but not on the other side, because of the projectors, like I said beforeSep 12 01:54
XRevan86 – like hereSep 12 01:54
XRevan86I just picked a laptop randomlySep 12 01:54
XRevan86* a new laptop randomlySep 12 01:55
XRevan86If it's not slim too much for VGA, it'll probably have itSep 12 01:55
XRevan86and if it's not AppleSep 12 01:56
XRevan86Those people just don't care.Sep 12 01:57
XRevan86Maybe they have their own projectors with Lightning that only Macbooks can connect to, and the other way around :DSep 12 01:57
cubexyzbasically apple is evilSep 12 01:58
cubexyz11 generations of iphone since 2007?Sep 12 01:58
cubexyznot worth it Sep 12 01:59
XRevan86They only care about their own silo. That is pretty evil.Sep 12 01:59
XRevan86and about cultivating that siloSep 12 01:59
cubexyzthere isn't a lot of white box PC stuff, at least that is the impression I get nowSep 12 02:01
XRevan86If one bought an Apple product, they will try to use that to push everything else they have onto him/her.Sep 12 02:01
cubexyzlots of used stuff for sale thoughSep 12 02:01
XRevan86cubexyz: What do you mean?Sep 12 02:01
XRevan86Literally white casings? (:Sep 12 02:01
cubexyzyou know, buy all the parts and assemble a computer for yourselfSep 12 02:01
cubexyzwhitebox = genericSep 12 02:02
XRevan86cubexyz: ohSep 12 02:02
XRevan86cubexyz: I see lots of stuffSep 12 02:02
XRevan86cubexyz: motherboards, casings, RAM, PCI cards, video cards, processorsSep 12 02:03
XRevan86power blocksSep 12 02:03
XRevan86All that stuff is easily purchasable in a store.Sep 12 02:03
cubexyzI'm just wondering if there's still a cost savings Sep 12 02:04
XRevan86At least in Russia it's a huge market.Sep 12 02:04
cubexyzoh yeah you can definitely still do itSep 12 02:04
XRevan86cubexyz: It's more efficient, it saves money even just by thatSep 12 02:05
XRevan86You know, configurabilitySep 12 02:05
cubexyz"Do NOT eat the termal material"Sep 12 02:06
cubexyzwhoa, I was totally going to do thatSep 12 02:06
cubexyzthermal :)Sep 12 02:06
XRevan86cubexyz: Now you know betterSep 12 02:07
cubexyzI can remember putting 286's together, no thermal paste, no fan, no heat sinkSep 12 02:07
cubexyzXRevan86, I'm not sure I can buy memory for my P3's locallySep 12 02:08
XRevan86cubexyz: What if I tell you 286 are still being produced? %)Sep 12 02:08
XRevan86By AMDSep 12 02:09
cubexyzok, that is a surpriseSep 12 02:09
XRevan86except they call it 288, IIRCSep 12 02:09
cubexyzok, but did you know there were 286's with S-100 BUS? :)Sep 12 02:10
cubexyzor maybe it was S-100 with 286 CPU boardSep 12 02:11
cubexyz 12 02:12
XRevan86cubexyz: Oh, sorry, that was 186Sep 12 02:12
XRevan86Am188 ESSep 12 02:16
XRevan86cubexyz: These are still produced or were still produced a few years ago.Sep 12 02:18
XRevan86cubexyz: I've only heard vaguely about S-100Sep 12 02:19
cubexyzZenith Data Systems made the Z100 in 1983Sep 12 02:22
cubexyzthat was the last of the S-100's I thinkSep 12 02:23
cubexyzsorry, it lingered on until 1986Sep 12 02:26
cubexyzthere was a 68020 processor with 68881 co-processorSep 12 02:27
cubexyzthe Cromemco CS-250Sep 12 02:27
cubexyzso the CPU wasn't part of the mainboardSep 12 02:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #AlpineLinux 3.8.1 released []Sep 12 02:37
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---Topic for #techrights is | Channel #techrights for :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellSep 12 02:55
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #OpenSSL 1.1.1 Is Released []Sep 12 03:07
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: September 2018 Drivers: The Current Linux Performance & Perf-Per-Watt From #NVIDIA Kepler To Pascal vs. #AMD []Sep 12 03:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 12 03:30
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Python joins movement to dump 'offensive' master, slave terms []Sep 12 03:56
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The @LinuxFoundation and #Linux Events []Sep 12 03:56
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Graphics: AMD and #Libinput 1.12 []Sep 12 04:08
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Server: Ubuntu Server, Canonical's Embrace of Buzzwords and LF on Storage []Sep 12 04:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Openwashing iPhone With "HeadGaze" and Microsoft Openwashing Itself []Sep 12 04:12
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security Leftovers []Sep 12 04:42
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian and Ubuntu: Decommissioned Mirror, TeX Live, and Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter []Sep 12 04:45
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #HopHacks at Johns Hopkins []Sep 12 04:47
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers []Sep 12 04:49
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 11/9/2018: OpenSSL 1.1.1, Alpine Linux 3.8.1, Copyright Fight in EU []Sep 12 04:54
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux App Release Roundup: HandBrake, GPaste, Qtractor, FreeFileSync []Sep 12 04:56
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MinceR 12 08:24
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Sep 12 09:02
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 12 09:21
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Meet TUXEDO Nano V8: A Power-packed Linux Mini PC []Sep 12 10:17
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Windows, EMC, Apache and Tor []Sep 12 10:59
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: So-called 'IoT' with GNU/Linux []Sep 12 11:44
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XRevan86 niceSep 12 14:24
XRevan86I saw Russian authorities use the exact same rhetoricSep 12 14:25
XRevan86"Well, Navalny, if you think we're corrupt, go prove that in court"Sep 12 14:26
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schestowitzXRevan86: philippines alsoSep 12 17:59
schestowitztrillianes and duterteSep 12 17:59
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schestowitz Sep 12 18:06
schestowitztrollSep 12 18:06
schestowitzbot broken?Sep 12 18:07
schestowitzhttp://example.orgSep 12 18:07
schestowitz 12 18:07
schestowitzoddSep 12 18:07
schestowitzahhhhSep 12 18:07
schestowitzno voiceSep 12 18:07
schestowitzthe spammers are still around, MinceR?Sep 12 18:08
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---MinceR gives voice to TechrightsBot-tr SopaXorzTaker schestowitz aindilisSep 12 19:02
---MinceR gives voice to schestowitz_log_ amarsh04 dmb acer-boxSep 12 19:02
MinceRcheckingSep 12 19:02
XRevan86schestowitz: Yeah. Please go to our rigged courts and try to prove in them that we rigged them.Sep 12 19:03
XRevan86Otherwise you're just not serious and worse, plain pussies.Sep 12 19:03
*XRevan86 actually watched a few (Russian) court processes on video from one end to another.Sep 12 19:04
MinceRschestowitz: the latest kill by sigyn i could find happened yesterdaySep 12 19:04
XRevan86that was some experienceSep 12 19:04
MinceRXRevan86: maybe they'll learn from it and ban recording them on videoSep 12 19:05
MinceRlike in the usSep 12 19:05
XRevan86MinceR: They did, except they just made them worseSep 12 19:05
XRevan86bad sound qualitySep 12 19:05
XRevan86and, of course, there are some cases where recording is forbiddenSep 12 19:06
XRevan86I am yet to determine how they determine – whichSep 12 19:06
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Is the #commonsclause a threat to open source? []Sep 12 19:07
MinceR 12 19:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SAMSUNG MAKE FUN OF APPLE. AGAIN! - YouTubeSep 12 19:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Current #Linux Performance On 22 Intel / AMD Desktop Systems []Sep 12 19:14
XRevan86MinceR: Samsung doesn't have a notch?Sep 12 19:16
MinceRdunnoSep 12 19:17
XRevan86I thought every hip kid on the district has a notch these daysSep 12 19:17
MinceRi stopped caring about samsung when they introduced provider lockSep 12 19:17
XRevan86even OnePlus, even AllahSep 12 19:17
MinceRbut yeah, the s9 and the s9+ have no notchSep 12 19:17
MinceRi cared even less about samsung then they dropped the microsd card slot from one of their alleged flagshipsSep 12 19:17
MinceRand then they dropped the removable batterySep 12 19:18
MinceRand made the back of the device from unsuitable materialsSep 12 19:18
MinceRbut since then, the entire industry started going to hellSep 12 19:18
MinceReven the lg v30 has a non-user-removable batterySep 12 19:18
XRevan86And still have the worst Android ROM known to man.Sep 12 19:18
XRevan86MinceR: This reminds me HTC right after Apple killed the 3.5mm Jack.Sep 12 19:20
MinceRand of course newer moto models also have non-user-removable batteriesSep 12 19:21
XRevan86Oh, Samsung Galaxy S9 has oneSep 12 19:21
XRevan86at least they did that rightSep 12 19:21
MinceRone what?Sep 12 19:21
XRevan86MinceR: JackSep 12 19:21
MinceR:)Sep 12 19:21
MinceRthe lg v20 demonstrates what they should have done instead of the notchSep 12 19:21
XRevan86MinceR: no notch?Sep 12 19:24
XRevan86that's a good solution, yeahSep 12 19:25
MinceRsecondary display beside the front camera and sensorsSep 12 19:25
XRevan86MinceR: huhSep 12 19:26
XRevan86MinceR: Would've been cool to have a little ink display there %)Sep 12 19:27
XRevan86to work all the time with minimal power requirementsSep 12 19:28
MinceRnot sure if such a tiny ink display would have been usefulSep 12 19:28
XRevan86but maybe that's dumb, dunnoSep 12 19:28
XRevan86MinceR: It could show timeSep 12 19:28
XRevan86100% of the timeSep 12 19:29
MinceRbut it's not all it doesSep 12 19:30
MinceRit displays shortcuts, notifications, notification icons, time, dateSep 12 19:31
MinceRit allows incoming calls to be accepted or dismissed without intruding on the main screenSep 12 19:31
XRevan86MinceR: Okay, that is neatSep 12 19:31
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat News (Financial Results Imminent) []Sep 12 19:52
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Canonical Outs New Linux Kernel Live Patch for Ubuntu 18.04 LTS and 16.04 LTS []Sep 12 19:53
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Current #Linux Performance On 22 Intel / AMD Desktop Systems []Sep 12 19:55
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 12 19:58
DaemonFC[m]Whoa. That was strange. First time GNOME Shell crashed on me in at least the past 5 years.Sep 12 19:58
DaemonFC[m]I use it every day, so that's still a good track record, I guess.Sep 12 19:58
DaemonFC[m]Windows 10 still fucks up in every conceivable way.Sep 12 19:58
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: Microsoft is advertising a new tablet/laptop called Surface Go. It comes in two configurations. A base model for $399 US and an upgrade model for $549.Sep 12 19:59
DaemonFC[m]So I check it out while I'm at Best Buy.Sep 12 19:59
MinceRit's garbageSep 12 19:59
MinceR 12 19:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Flickergate - Surface Pro Screen Flickering and ShakingSep 12 19:59
DaemonFC[m]Turns out that it runs Windows 10 in "S Mode" which means....No desktop apps. To make sure, I tried running a desktop app.Sep 12 19:59
MinceRmicrosoft products are always garbageSep 12 19:59
DaemonFC[m]So Windows pops up this message..... Upgrade to Windows 10 Professional for $99 to run desktop apps.Sep 12 20:00
XRevan86Surface Go AwaySep 12 20:00
DaemonFC[m]So you get what looks like a cheap laptop with decent specs for the money and the first thing you have to do is pay Microsoft $100 to remove app restrictions that make it useless, and there is no support for running GNU/Linux, so that's not currently an option.Sep 12 20:01
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Is it ARM or something?Sep 12 20:01
DaemonFC[m]No, it has a "Pentium Gold Edition" CPU.Sep 12 20:02
DaemonFC[m]Looks like a dual core x86-64 CPU running at 1.6 Ghz. Sep 12 20:02
DaemonFC[m]Probably based on the 8th generation Intel Core architecture, seeing as the laptop was just released.Sep 12 20:03
DaemonFC[m]I rebooted it while nobody was looking and there was no option in the BIOS to disable Secure Boot.Sep 12 20:03
DaemonFC[m]So no GNU/Linux at all unless you boot it with shim, and even then, this thing probably has custom chips in it that Linux doesn't support yet. Most Surface laptops do and it takes months or years for Linux to get a driver for some components. :(Sep 12 20:04
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Of course there wasn't…Sep 12 20:04
DaemonFC[m]There's no way that Microsoft gives you a laptop at a loss that can easily be made to run a competing operating system. Sep 12 20:04
DaemonFC[m]:)Sep 12 20:04
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DaemonFC[m]The upside is that someone will figure it out eventually and these things are gonna have no resale value at all because word will spread that by the time you pay for the real Windows, not the crippled S vesion, you may as well have gotten a different laptop.Sep 12 20:07
MinceReven then, they'll probably have a hardware failure rate of 25% or greaterSep 12 20:07
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DaemonFC[m]Well, $100 is only $100, but.... It's 25% of the total cost of the base model and just over 18% of the cost of the upgrade model, and you have to pay that _after_ you get the thing home before it will run real software. Ouch. Trojan Horse from Microsoft.Sep 12 20:09
XRevan86 this is the dumbest thing I've seen all daySep 12 20:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-The use of "blacklist" is offensive! · Issue #13604 · facebook/react · GitHubSep 12 20:09
XRevan86Not the bugreport itself, which is clearly satire / trollingSep 12 20:10
XRevan86but that it was approvedSep 12 20:10
DaemonFC[m]Well, MinceR, If I thought I could buy a laptop from Microsoft at (their) loss and then wipe Windows off of it and run Fedora....I might do just that. Sep 12 20:13
MinceR:)Sep 12 20:13
DaemonFC[m]But they know that if word gets out that it's just that easy, then people will, and they end up losing money on many of the units they sell, because nobody buys apps from their store or pays $100 for real application support.Sep 12 20:14
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: A major hurricane is about to hit the Carolinas. Here's what I wrote on Facebook.Sep 12 20:24
*DaemonFC[m] sent a long message: < >Sep 12 20:24
DaemonFC[m]Uggh, formatting.Sep 12 20:25
MinceRyeah, The Weather Channel's app notified me about it, even though it knows i'm not even close to americaSep 12 20:25
MinceRtwiceSep 12 20:25
DaemonFC[m]LMAOSep 12 20:26
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Chicago is in no danger at all. I haven't gotten any alerts. Sep 12 20:27
DaemonFC[m]Well, I say no danger....Sep 12 20:27
DaemonFC[m]The poor who lose their homes might be transplanted into the ghetto here, like what happened to Houston after Katrina.Sep 12 20:28
DaemonFC[m]Now Houston is one of the shittiest and most violent cities in America.Sep 12 20:28
DaemonFC[m]The federal government picks up all the people who cause all the crime and don't have any wheels and evacuates them to your formerly decent city. How nice.Sep 12 20:29
DaemonFC[m]I was watching the news. The states affected have reversed the traffic on the incoming side of the freeway.Sep 12 20:30
DaemonFC[m]State troopers were escorting people out who were driving down the freeway at like 90 miles an hour.Sep 12 20:30
DaemonFC[m]This is going to be bad, for them. Sep 12 20:30
DaemonFC[m]That thing is going to rip their houses apart and destroy their cars, but.... On the other hand. These are primarily people who say global warming is a Chinese hoax and voted for Republicans, then moved closer and closer to the coast. *shrug*Sep 12 20:31
MinceRnow the AccuWeather app notified me about it tooSep 12 20:31
MinceRgood thing the 4 other weather apps i have are hungarianSep 12 20:31
DaemonFC[m]Chicago doesn't really have natural disasters, as such.Sep 12 20:32
DaemonFC[m]I mean, some hail and the occasional tornado, but I'm far enough into the city that even the tornadoes don't reach here.Sep 12 20:32
DaemonFC[m]There are occasional "events" like what happened during the polar vortex in recent years.Sep 12 20:33
DaemonFC[m]It came down here and the temp dropped to 20 below zero (F) and the wind blew the waves from Lake Michigan onto Lake Shore Drive.Sep 12 20:34
DaemonFC[m]They froze in place. People had to abandon the buses and vehicles until they thawed out. Sep 12 20:34
DaemonFC[m]That was a real spectacle.Sep 12 20:34
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: I was at home having a really fun time. I was boiling water and then going out and throwing it into the air. Sep 12 20:35
MinceRlolSep 12 20:35
MinceRdid it turn into snow?Sep 12 20:35
DaemonFC[m]Yes. Immediately.Sep 12 20:36
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Parrot 4.2.2 release notes []Sep 12 20:41
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #SailfishOS "Nurmonjoki" Released and #Eelo Beta []Sep 12 20:44
schestowitz[20:00] <DaemonFC[m]> So Windows pops up this message..... Upgrade to Windows 10 Professional for $99 to run desktop apps.Sep 12 20:46
schestowitzLOLSep 12 20:46
schestowitzyou gave MSFT moneySep 12 20:47
schestowitznow they want MOARSep 12 20:47
schestowitzgood luckSep 12 20:47
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Free Software in Businesses []Sep 12 20:52
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MinceRthere is no such thing as "enough money"Sep 12 21:06
schestowitzto some there isSep 12 21:06
schestowitzbut not corporationsSep 12 21:06
schestowitzcertainly not shareholdersSep 12 21:06
schestowitzto them we're 'consumers' and companies are empty vessels whose only goal is "value", not ethicsSep 12 21:07
MinceRi don't think there is to anyoneSep 12 21:07
MinceRmore money is always betterSep 12 21:07
MinceRespecially if you consider that the presence of more money tends to inflate pricesSep 12 21:07
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: The sad part is that when people buy the laptop and then get it home and pay the $100 to get the non-crippled Windows still won't be enough.Sep 12 21:07
DaemonFC[m]Because Microsoft plans to make it a monthly fee soon.Sep 12 21:08
cubexyzyes, as expectedSep 12 21:08
MinceRand because it's still a microsoft "laptop"Sep 12 21:08
cubexyzin the old days we had register level understanding of our microcomputersSep 12 21:11
MinceR 12 21:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@NumbersMuncher: Yes, there's audio of Trump patting himself on the back for having the tallest building in Manhattan after the WTC… 12 21:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@NumbersMuncher: Yes, there's audio of Trump patting himself on the back for having the tallest building in Manhattan after the WTC… 12 21:12
MinceR#trumpdid911Sep 12 21:12
cubexyzI first had a vague idea that microsoft was bad back in 1987Sep 12 21:13
cubexyzmy job at the time was to review windows 2.0Sep 12 21:14
MinceR 12 21:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Crushing Anvil With Hydraulic Press - YouTubeSep 12 21:19
cubexyzbut before that there was the CP/M eraSep 12 21:19
cubexyztons of CP/M systems in 1982Sep 12 21:21
cubexyzin the UK there was Amstrad CPC6128Sep 12 21:21
cubexyzeven in 1984 there were still some CP/M boxes being madeSep 12 21:22
cubexyzTRS-80 Model 4... I know it's ancient history nowSep 12 21:24
cubexyzso yeah, I guess the main impetus to turn things around to FOSS started with Minix 1.5Sep 12 21:29
cubexyzI'll say Minix 1.5 because Prentice Hall was selling the box bundled with the OS and before that I never saw anything similarSep 12 21:29
cubexyzso around 1991 or so things _started_ to go in the right directionSep 12 21:30
cubexyzthe book bundled with the OS ratherSep 12 21:30
cubexyzI hated the win95 era... it was a low point Sep 12 21:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Openwashing and EEE []Sep 12 21:33
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU: GNU Tools Cauldron 2018 Conference and FisicaLab for Windows []Sep 12 21:36
schestowitz> HiSep 12 21:41
schestowitz> Sep 12 21:41
schestowitz> Hope you are well.  While I would normally be very careful about where ISep 12 21:41
schestowitz> send something and what I do with it in this case I think I might thinkSep 12 21:41
schestowitz> in some other way...  some e-mail that came to me today...Sep 12 21:41
schestowitz> Sep 12 21:41
schestowitz>Sep 12 21:41
schestowitz> Sep 12 21:41
schestowitz> I'm reaching out because I wanted to give you a head's up that *o*nSep 12 21:41
schestowitz> September 20, GitLab will announce a Series D funding round placing themSep 12 21:41
schestowitz> amongst an elite group of startups. Would you like to see this news underSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> embargo ? This news comes on the heels of one of the years biggestSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> acquisitions from MSFT of GitHub, which is drawing heightened awarenessSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> for the valueSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> developers play in everyday business activities. If you can agree to theSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> *September 20 at 7:30 a.m. ET embargo*, I can share more details,Sep 12 21:42
schestowitz> including funding size, investors, and company milestonesSep 12 21:42
schestowitz> with you.Sep 12 21:42
MinceR 12 22:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Famous last words - Fredo and Pidjin. The Webcomic.Sep 12 22:55
MinceR 12 22:59
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DaemonFC[m]Microsoft has been plastering Surface Pro and Surface Go ads all over the CTA train stations. Sep 13 00:41
DaemonFC[m]I mean, I guess I'm glad that they and Apple end up funding the CTA.Sep 13 00:41
DaemonFC[m]I'd rather have their ads on it than end up with a 15% fare hike, but I'm not sure that the CTA is charging them as much as it could.Sep 13 00:42
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Maybe a CTA CEO is from Microsoft, and it is CTA who pay Microsoft for placing the ads there :PSep 13 02:07
cubexyzmicrosoft did the usual back to school media blitzSep 13 02:09
cubexyzand there's a "get chicago transit" microsoft appSep 13 02:11
XRevan86Your kid is back to school, consider buying him/her this laptop that he/she won't be able to do anything on but watch YouTube videos.Sep 13 02:11
cubexyz"of course this laptop will run AROS and freedos, right?" <--- difficult customerSep 13 02:13
cubexyzjust imagine the enjoyment looking for dos drivers for wifi :)Sep 13 02:14
XRevan86cubexyz: I cannot, my imagination halted on the FreeDOS UEFI compatibility step %).Sep 13 02:15
XRevan86and then on Secure Boot signing stepSep 13 02:15
XRevan86* on theSep 13 02:15
XRevan86"My daughter likes to build an optimised Linux kernel herself, is Surface Go a good solution for her"Sep 13 02:18
XRevan86cubexyz: ^ the fun of Secure Boot %)Sep 13 02:18
cubexyzyeah I'm not sure what to recommend these daysSep 13 02:20
XRevan86cubexyz: To always check if Secure Boot can be disabled.Sep 13 02:21
XRevan86at least thatSep 13 02:21
XRevan86It's a pity enterprises don't want to sell computers, but appliancesSep 13 02:26
XRevan86s/, but/ but/Sep 13 02:26
XRevan86I think the comma was extra thereSep 13 02:26
cubexyzanyways, Domex DMX3191D will solve my immediate problemSep 13 02:50
cubexyzit's either that or put another PC together with an ISA slotSep 13 02:51
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: LWN on Security: Updates, fs-verity, Spectre, Qubes OS/CopperheadOS []Sep 13 04:06
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: AND's Latest Linux and Free Software Work #amd #linux []Sep 13 04:42
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Looking at Firefox performance 57 vs 63 []Sep 13 05:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME Podcasts – podcast client for the GNOME desktop []Sep 13 05:09
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Julia, Go, and Perl []Sep 13 05:11
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cubexyz 13 05:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | To Serve Man (The Twilight Zone) - WikipediaSep 13 05:57
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #KDE and #GNOME : Elisa, Krita, Five or More and Canta []Sep 13 06:02
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 13 06:04
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Software: Cool-Retro-Term, USB Stick Formatter, Fstransform, digest and Copyu []Sep 13 06:15
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security and #Android Leftovers []Sep 13 06:28
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS Leftovers []Sep 13 07:45
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's leftovers []Sep 13 07:48
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 13/9/2018: Parrot 4.2.2, Sailfish OS Nurmonjoki, Eelo Beta []Sep 13 07:55
MinceR 13 08:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Spanish actor detained after ridiculing 'God and the Virgin Mary' | World news | The GuardianSep 13 08:04
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Well, the US isn't that bad yet.Sep 13 09:33
DaemonFC[m]So that's something, I guess.Sep 13 09:33
DaemonFC[m]Supposedly, being in the EU grants you certain rights, but in practice, it seems like it doesn't. :(Sep 13 09:34
DaemonFC[m]Being put on trial for saying something that offends religious people sounds like something that would happen in Iran, not in an EU member state.Sep 13 09:35
DaemonFC[m] 13 09:36
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | 2-bit punks' weak 40-bit crypto didn't help Tesla keyless fobs one bit • The RegisterSep 13 09:37
DaemonFC[m]I wonder if this would work in my Kia, but even if it did, the transponder is enough to stop some stupid street criminal from stealing it. Sep 13 09:37
DaemonFC[m]Hotwiring an old car was relatively easy.Sep 13 09:37
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schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: nice...Sep 13 10:40
schestowitzeasy pickingsSep 13 10:40
schestowitz"smart"Sep 13 10:40
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 13 11:05
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MinceR13 103424 <+DaemonFC[m]> Supposedly, being in the EU grants you certain rights, but in practice, it seems like it doesn't. :(Sep 13 13:20
MinceRthe EU has certain alleged "values"Sep 13 13:20
MinceRafter fideath spent over 8 years violating them constantly and consistently, some people in the EP are starting to realize that maybe they should do something about it someday.Sep 13 13:20
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Sep 13 15:02
schestowitzMinceR: yes, sad..Sep 13 15:10
schestowitzbut trueSep 13 15:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Wine 3.0.3 is Released and Wine's VKD3D Lands An Initial Vulkan Pipeline Cache []Sep 13 15:17
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Forsaken Remastered, Megaquarium, Nimbatus, BFF or Die, Unity 2018.3 Beta []Sep 13 15:20
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat Business News []Sep 13 15:50
---MinceR gives voice to mmu_man oiaohm SopaXorzTaker schestowitzSep 13 15:55
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 5 Open-Source Trends to Watch []Sep 13 16:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Back Doors, Russian Botnet/Botmaster and Tesla's Utter Fail []Sep 13 16:28
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: A Look at KDE's #KAlgebra []Sep 13 16:57
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #LibreOffice 6.1 Gets First Point Release with More Than 120 Bug Fixes | []Sep 13 17:00
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #KDE Plasma 5.13 Desktop Reaches End of Life, KDE Plasma 5.14 Arrives October 9 []Sep 13 17:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 13 17:15
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 13 17:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Microsoft is Playing Dirty Again []Sep 13 17:40
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME: Google Code-in and #Canta Theme #gnome #gnu #linux []Sep 13 17:47
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU/Linux Version of Life is Strange: Before the Storm []Sep 13 18:23
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Former #Compiz Developer Creating New Window Animation Library []Sep 13 18:24
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Graphics: Vulkan, NVIDIA, RADV []Sep 13 18:31
DaemonFC[m] 13 20:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Firefox Is Now Built With Clang+LTO Everywhere, Sizable Performance Wins For Linux - PhoronixSep 13 20:17
DaemonFC[m]"Mozilla developers did try GCC LTO as well as switching to the newest GCC8 release, but ran into problems. "Sep 13 20:18
DaemonFC[m]What problems? Fedora is building Firefox with GCC 8 and that's what I'm using now.Sep 13 20:18
DaemonFC[m]I doubt that anything will change that forcess you to use Clang to build Firefox, but I wouldn't entirely put it past Mozilla to do that.Sep 13 20:20
DaemonFC[m]It'll make supplying Firefox as the default browser harder for distributions.Sep 13 20:21
DaemonFC[m]Which is exactly what Mozilla doesn't need right now. Yeah, GNU/Linux is "only" 3-4% of their users, but it's not like they can afford to lose too many. Sep 13 20:21
DaemonFC[m]Most Mac users stick to Safari and many Windows users are probably not coming back from Chrome.Sep 13 20:22
DaemonFC[m]Mozilla has been teetering on the edge of irrelevance for quite a while now anyway. They lost their spot to Chrome, which is now a monoculture like IE once was, which allows Google to do pretty much anything they want, especially on their own websites.Sep 13 20:23
DaemonFC[m]It's not Microsoft Edge that's a big threat. Microsoft has tried everything from spamming the Windows 10 desktop with ads for it, switching the default browser back without asking, and now they're going to "warn" people to not install a different browser, but nothing so far has gotten Edge too many users who would't have stuck to IE all along anyway.Sep 13 20:24
MinceRInternet EdgesplorerSep 13 20:25
DaemonFC[m]In fact, there's a sizable contingent of Windows 10 users who make Internet Explorer 11 the default browser anyway.Sep 13 20:25
DaemonFC[m]Like, why is that even possible? Sep 13 20:25
MinceRbecause microsoftSep 13 20:26
DaemonFC[m]Microsoft says that IE 11 is there, frozen in time, other than security updates.Sep 13 20:26
DaemonFC[m]That it will eventually be removed when compatibility concerns subside. Sep 13 20:26
DaemonFC[m]There really isn't anything that can be done to secure IE because it still supports boneheaded things like ActiveX that were designed to let websites install software on your computer with minimal user interaction.Sep 13 20:27
DaemonFC[m]So, it should be gone already.Sep 13 20:27
MinceRsame is true for windowsSep 13 20:29
MinceRand yet...Sep 13 20:29
DaemonFC[m]Profile Guided Optimization is kind of a con job anyway.Sep 13 20:32
DaemonFC[m]They turn it on and then have Firefox run synthetic benchmarks, and then it appears to be quite good at running synthetic benchmarks. Sep 13 20:32
DaemonFC[m]Unfortunately, web sites are not synthetic benchmarks and real world performance suffers.Sep 13 20:33
MinceRdoesn't matter, as failfox is just an inferior clone of chromiumSep 13 20:34
MinceRit didn't have to be that, but mozilla wanted it that waySep 13 20:34
DaemonFC[m] 13 20:43
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Changes/Update i686 architectural baseline to include SSE2 - Fedora Project WikiSep 13 20:43
DaemonFC[m]Well, there's really no point in having compatibility with Pentium 3 processors anymore anyway, considering that the 32-bit Linux kernel can't reliably run on hardware that old anyway.Sep 13 20:43
DaemonFC[m]I jsut feel that enabling SSE 2, while giving better performance to some apps, is going to provoke odd errors in some 32-bit x86 software along the way that makes stupid assumptions.Sep 13 20:44
DaemonFC[m]It probably won't affect anything from the distribution itself, but Steam games or something might break here and there.Sep 13 20:44
DaemonFC[m]And the developers generally don't want to hear that their app is broken unless it stops working on Ubuntu.Sep 13 20:45
DaemonFC[m]"The compiled binaries should still remain compatible with the i686 alternative architecture, so they do not need rebuilding. (The instructions generated by GCC are compatible with a pure 32-bit x86 platform.) However, Fedora does not currently perform automated tests to enforce this."Sep 13 20:46
DaemonFC[m]This ^Sep 13 20:46
DaemonFC[m]Chances are that non-trivial changes that have no test cases are going to silently break something.Sep 13 20:47
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: But who cares about software incompatibilities when there's a ~1% performance gain to be had?Sep 13 20:48
DaemonFC[m]IIRC, Fedora already tried doing this once and had to back it out, because it was breaking things like Borderlands 2 on Steam.Sep 13 20:48
cubexyzI still want P3 supportSep 13 20:50
cubexyzI got at least two working P3'sSep 13 20:50
DaemonFC[m]In theory, on actual 32-bit x86 hardware, this bumps the minimum processor requirement for Fedora to the Pentium 4, introduced in 2000, or the Athlon64/Opteron models introduced by AMD in 2003.Sep 13 20:50
DaemonFC[m]Starting with Fedora 29.Sep 13 20:51
cubexyzthe opposite problem could happen:Sep 13 20:51
cubexyzan old distro might not run on newer hardwareSep 13 20:51
cubexyznetbsd has 'tiers' of support levelsSep 13 20:53
cubexyztier one being the most supportedSep 13 20:53
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: there are still 386/486 x86 instruction set only cpus made new.Sep 13 20:53
cubexyztier one: x86_c64 (of course, what else?), arm, mips, powerpc, i386, sparc and xenSep 13 20:54
cubexyzand netbsd (probably) supports the most architecturesSep 13 20:54
cubexyztier two _still_ supports atari and amigaSep 13 20:55
DaemonFC[m]I was using an old Sempron 3000 laptop as a beater. Only had 1 GB of RAM, and that was an upgrade.Sep 13 20:56
cubexyznot supporting P3 is just lazySep 13 20:56
DaemonFC[m]It finally crapped out a few years ago. I had been running Crunchbang on it to try to free up as much RAM as possible so that Firefox would at least work.Sep 13 20:56
DaemonFC[m]:/Sep 13 20:56
oiaohm386/486 x86 instruction set x86 chips made new are heavy radation harded ones.Sep 13 20:56
MinceR>considering that the 32-bit Linux kernel Sep 13 20:57
MinceR                         can't reliably run on hardware that old anyway.Sep 13 20:57
MinceRwhat, have they bloated it that much?Sep 13 20:57
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Are you saying Fedora still has IA32 support?Sep 13 20:57
XRevan86I thought they dropped itSep 13 20:57
MinceRor maybe it's just fedora which is bloated, which is not newsSep 13 20:57
cubexyztut tut, you could run an older Fedora...Sep 13 20:57
MinceRif i wanted to sufferSep 13 20:58
MinceRbecause fedora sucksSep 13 20:58
DaemonFC[m]It was like watching an elephant tap dance. You weren't amazed that it could do it well. You were amazed that it could do it at all.Sep 13 20:59
DaemonFC[m]I thought they dropped itSep 13 20:59
DaemonFC[m]No, but it isn't really _supported_, so problems dont block releases anymore.Sep 13 20:59
cubexyzreally glibc itself is bloatedSep 13 20:59
DaemonFC[m]You're pretty much on your own with hardware that old.Sep 13 20:59
cubexyzbut if you go alpine linux you get a new set of problemsSep 13 21:00
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, because it turns out that all off those "efficient" libc implementations out there turn out to be missing things that applications were really using.Sep 13 21:01
DaemonFC[m]That's why glibc persists. Sep 13 21:01
cubexyzif I stuck with only the basics and programs I wrote myself, then alpine linux is fineSep 13 21:01
DaemonFC[m]Many of them "aim" to be compatible with glibc, but none of them truly are.Sep 13 21:02
cubexyzmaybe there's a way to get the other stuff to work, I lost patience with itSep 13 21:02
DaemonFC[m]There have been some improvements to glibc lately.Sep 13 21:03
DaemonFC[m] 13 21:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Glibc Enables A Per-Thread Cache For Malloc - Big Performance Win - PhoronixSep 13 21:03
DaemonFC[m]Improvements if you have a new-ish system. I doubt that it helps on resource constrained systems.Sep 13 21:04
DaemonFC[m]The big complaint about glibc is memory usage, but even cheap computers now have tons of memory, so nobody really cares.Sep 13 21:04
DaemonFC[m]If it's going to be a choice between compatibility, performance, and memory usage, and you can pick two, well, that's what made glibc like it is today. :)Sep 13 21:05
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]:   Its not that straight forwards. Sep 13 21:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Comparison of C/POSIX standard library implementations for LinuxSep 13 21:06
DaemonFC[m]By the time these libc-on-a-diet things get to the point where they're reasonably compatible with glibc, they are already most of the way to glibc's resource appetite anyway.Sep 13 21:06
DaemonFC[m]It's been argued before, over and over, that glibc was obese.Sep 13 21:07
DaemonFC[m]It spans decades.Sep 13 21:07
DaemonFC[m]And the people who wanted it to be smaller always lost out because computers got faster and with more memory.Sep 13 21:08
DaemonFC[m]The people who cared lost, got better systems eventually, and shut up.Sep 13 21:08
DaemonFC[m]:)Sep 13 21:08
DaemonFC[m]Speaking of which....There are a lot of old-ish Core 2 era systems coming on the secondhand market recently, for not a lot of money.Sep 13 21:09
DaemonFC[m]Some have even been cleaned up and upgraded.Sep 13 21:09
oiaohmcubexyz: you found this page I hope.Sep 13 21:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | musl libc - Functional differences from glibcSep 13 21:09
DaemonFC[m]Those can even still run GNOME 3 or KDE if you like, and they're all of $50.Sep 13 21:09
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: musl is around because its MIT license.   Great for those wanting to static link.Sep 13 21:10
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, the GNU LGPL is ideal for some cases, but you have to dynamically link to it if you're not happy about your program falling under the same license. Sep 13 21:11
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: musl is not trying to be glibc compadible it attempting to be fully standard compadible so it not glibc in quite a few places.Sep 13 21:11
XRevan86 13 21:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-vinzv: "Not sure if shameless or desperate: When you try …" - LinuxRocks.OnlineSep 13 21:12
cubexyzI'd try alpine linux again, but it's just not my priority Sep 13 21:12
DaemonFC[m]The GNU project has had contempt for standards in many cases and deviates from them quite often.Sep 13 21:13
DaemonFC[m]Cynically, one might point out that they are attempting to subvert the existing standard and compatibility and forcing developers to make the choice to only support the GNU behavior instead.Sep 13 21:14
DaemonFC[m]This is probably why they have been completely silent about even outside software that more or less forces this decision, like systemd.Sep 13 21:14
MinceRthey could have realized the error of their ways, but noooooooooooooSep 13 21:15
DaemonFC[m]The FSF is not beyond Embrace, Extend, Exterminate. Sep 13 21:15
DaemonFC[m]Not by a long shot.Sep 13 21:15
DaemonFC[m]One only has to look at the manuals for the GNU coreutilities to realize that the GNU system is definitely not UNIX.Sep 13 21:16
DaemonFC[m]Even if there is a POSIX mode, it does not always comply with the POSIX standard, even in that mode.Sep 13 21:16
DaemonFC[m]:)Sep 13 21:16
MinceR 13 21:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ImgurSep 13 21:16
MinceRthe GNU system is about as Unix as they comeSep 13 21:16
DaemonFC[m]Things have improved in some ways over the years, and gotten worse in other ways.Sep 13 21:17
MinceRdid you think that corporate Unixes had perfect POSIX compliance? :>Sep 13 21:17
DaemonFC[m]Systemd is definitely moving GNU/Linux further away from POSIX/UNIX.Sep 13 21:17
cubexyzthe 'real' Unix aficionados are on TUHSSep 13 21:17
cubexyzpeople who run Bell Labs Unix, myself includedSep 13 21:17
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Of course not. Apple bought.....let me repeat....BOUGHT....exemptions from the UNIX test cases that OS X failed.Sep 13 21:17
DaemonFC[m]':)Sep 13 21:17
MinceRlolSep 13 21:18
MinceRwell, the SUS has always been a racket anywaySep 13 21:18
oiaohmMinceR: you can count the corporate Unixes with perfect POSIX compliance on 1 finger.   It IBM AIXSep 13 21:18
DaemonFC[m]It's worthless. It's marketing bullshit.Sep 13 21:18
cubexyzso tell me when we had a 'standard' UnixSep 13 21:18
DaemonFC[m]The POSIX standard is, at least, real.Sep 13 21:18
MinceRit's easy to tell if a "unix" certification is bullshit or notSep 13 21:18
MinceRjust check if they've certified any free unixesSep 13 21:18
MinceRif not, it's bullshitSep 13 21:19
MinceRjust a money grabSep 13 21:19
DaemonFC[m]MinceR: Well, at least one GNU/Linux system was certified as Posix.1 compliant.Sep 13 21:19
cubexyzyou want quasi-Traditional Unixy Linux there's slackware :)Sep 13 21:19
DaemonFC[m]But none have been submitted for SUS certification, and why would they? SUS is bullshit.Sep 13 21:19
cubexyzI'm not sure want else to recommend honestlySep 13 21:20
cubexyznetbsd, openbsd I guessSep 13 21:20
cubexyzs/want/what/Sep 13 21:20
DaemonFC[m]Any standard where you stop and fail on part of the test and pay for them to ignore the failure instead of forcing you to fix it is a bogus standard.Sep 13 21:20
DaemonFC[m]So, SUS is bullshit.Sep 13 21:20
DaemonFC[m]And, as I recall, OS X didn't just fail a few parts of the test.Sep 13 21:21
DaemonFC[m]It was well north of a dozen.Sep 13 21:21
MinceRit was up to The Closed Group to make the first stepSep 13 21:21
MinceRthey have a product (certification) that they have to sellSep 13 21:21
MinceRs/have to/want to/Sep 13 21:21
oiaohmReally does everyone forgot what GNU expands to.Sep 13 21:21
MinceRno, nobody forgotSep 13 21:21
MinceRthat was about its origins and licensingSep 13 21:21
oiaohmGNU Not UnixSep 13 21:22
DaemonFC[m]The opposition to Systemd has been token opposition, really.Sep 13 21:22
oiaohmGNU own name is a statement of non conformance.Sep 13 21:22
cubexyzoiaohm, but it supports all the Unix v7 system calls, I think just about everything did, including MinixSep 13 21:22
cubexyzso a bit of a misnomer Sep 13 21:22
DaemonFC[m]I'm not surprised that Canonical has basically given up trying to engineer anything of their own.Sep 13 21:22
MinceRand yet they relied on the POSIX specs to determine how the interfaces are supposed to workSep 13 21:22
cubexyzor rather the Linux kernel didSep 13 21:23
DaemonFC[m]That costs money. Might as well let someone else spend the $$$ and sit back and twink everything into Ubuntu later, often shockingly worse than whatever condition it was in upstream.Sep 13 21:23
oiaohmMinceR: Posix specs to GNU were guide lines.Sep 13 21:23
MinceRyeah, canonical decided long ago that development costs too muchSep 13 21:23
MinceRoiaohm: just like they were to everyone elseSep 13 21:23
oiaohmMinceR: bar IBMSep 13 21:23
oiaohmMinceR: there is only 1 that has every made a Unix fully to posix specs and they have done that many times over and that is IBM.Sep 13 21:24
MinceRoiaohm: are you going to claim that AIX is the only Unix?Sep 13 21:24
XRevan86> Apple bought.....let me repeat....BOUGHT....exemptions from the UNIX test cases that OS X failed.Sep 13 21:25
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Can you elaborate on that? :)Sep 13 21:25
oiaohmMinceR: IBM did not believe in paying extra to failed tests.  Instead they fixed them and pays the smallest fee possible.Sep 13 21:25
oiaohmMinceR: It is funny that there is only one who went that route all the other Unix paid to look the other way.Sep 13 21:26
cubexyzAIX branched off from SysVSep 13 21:27
oiaohmYep AIX has a traditional Unix blood line as well.Sep 13 21:27
cubexyzbut AIX is closed, hardly idealSep 13 21:27
oiaohmReally AIX proves it possible to build proper Posix conformance just most parties have not been willing to invest todo it.Sep 13 21:28
oiaohmMinceR: everyone is doing is the excuse those who don't have proper posix conformance use to justify paying fees to have failed tests ignored.Sep 13 21:29
cubexyzAIX doesn't even run on x86 hardware nowadaysSep 13 21:31
cubexyzI'll make do with slackware and the BSDs Sep 13 21:31
cubexyzyou need IBM's ridiculous iSeries, or whatever it's called Sep 13 21:32
MinceRiirc AIX does horrible things about shared librariesSep 13 21:33
oiaohmMinceR: and posix standard does not contain anything about how shared libraries are handled.Sep 13 22:04
oiaohmAIX is a good example that you can be posix conforming and still be evil design.Sep 13 22:05
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DaemonFC[m]Sun Microsystems tried to turn the Windows API into a public standard at one point in the 1990s. Sep 13 22:47
DaemonFC[m]Microsoft fought it hard and the proposal died without even being voted on.Sep 13 22:48
DaemonFC[m]It seems that Wine and ReactOS will be the closest that ever gets to happening, and it's not at all clear whether ReactOS is even legally "clean".Sep 13 22:48
DaemonFC[m]There were some accusations that they reverse engineered some Windows DLL functions and based some ReactOS libraries on a blind copy of them.Sep 13 22:49
DaemonFC[m]Without any real understanding of what they were doing or how any of it really worked.Sep 13 22:50
DaemonFC[m]The ReactOS project denies it, but....Sep 13 22:50
cubexyzthere was that wabi thing, not sure if that's related to what you're talking aboutSep 13 22:50
cubexyzdisappeared ages agoSep 13 22:50
cubexyzI see the standardization attempt was written up in wikipediaSep 13 22:51
cubexyzI think wabi was a win16 API specSep 13 22:52
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, but it was not comparable to Wine.Sep 13 22:57
DaemonFC[m]It required a full copy of Windows 3.1 to be provided by the user.Sep 13 22:57
DaemonFC[m]Although, that was waaaaay before product activation, so....Sep 13 22:57
DaemonFC[m]Many people used to simply copy Windows install floppies onto blanks for friends.Sep 13 22:58
DaemonFC[m]Office too, and a lot of other stuff.Sep 13 22:58
DaemonFC[m]I'd say that the reason GNU/Linux, LibreOffice, and other software has gotten more popular in recent years, is because Microsoft just can't pull Windows 10 together. It still fails in random and horrible ways. Many times, just because you tried installing security patches and rebooting.Sep 13 22:59
DaemonFC[m]Add on the fact that there's a major update every 6 months now....Sep 13 22:59
cubexyzwin10 was just the last nail in the coffin...Sep 13 22:59
DaemonFC[m]People who used Windows before suffered for it in many ways, but at least it was basically the same OS for like 10+ years with a service pack or two along the way.Sep 13 23:00
cubexyzwindows geniune advantage with it's false positives POed a lot of peopleSep 13 23:00
DaemonFC[m]Service Packs _could_ fail to install, but it was much less common.Sep 13 23:00
DaemonFC[m]It often meant that you had a virus or something.Sep 13 23:00
DaemonFC[m]Well, Windows Update really started to fuck up a lot when Microsoft went from individual hotfix updates to megapatches. Sep 13 23:01
DaemonFC[m]They've transitioned Windows 7 and 8 over to this method of updates, so you either take these gigantic patches or you get nothing at all.Sep 13 23:02
DaemonFC[m]It just doesn't seem to happen on Fedora that upgrading packages goes wrong, and if you like, you can cherry pick updates, so that's a major thing it has going for it.Sep 13 23:03
DaemonFC[m]You can ignore things you don't think are important until you change your mind, and it doesn't just randomly reboot while you're doing something.Sep 13 23:03
DaemonFC[m]I don't know why people are using these "Windows Insider" preview builds.Sep 13 23:04
DaemonFC[m]Windows just doesn't come with a lot of built-in functionality.Sep 13 23:04
DaemonFC[m]So what you're getting more of is bugs and annoyances, usually because nobody has tested the changes.Sep 13 23:05
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: I had service packs install but then ruin system on windows 2000.   Mostly because they would be allowed to be installed in wrong order.  Ie installing sp1 for windows 2000 after you had installed sp4.Sep 13 23:07
DaemonFC[m]Wow. :/Sep 13 23:10
cubexyzI trust the linux community, I don't trust the M$ oneSep 13 23:11
cubexyzeven calling M$ a 'community' is dubiousSep 13 23:12
cubexyzI do run wine now and then for games and a few programs for windows I wrote before I knew betterSep 13 23:12
DaemonFC[m]I read a news article the other day that says that Microsoft has done such a lousy job of policing their own "community forums" that at least 3,200 fake "support articles" pointing to various scams were found on them. :)Sep 13 23:13
DaemonFC[m] 13 23:14
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Microsoft Takes Down More than 3000 Tech Support Scam Ads - Latest Hacking NewsSep 13 23:14
DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: ^ PingSep 13 23:14
DaemonFC[m] 13 23:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Tech support scammers find a home on Microsoft TechNet pages | ZDNetSep 13 23:15
DaemonFC[m]I wrote on Facebook: It used to be that a Windows license added $50 to the cost of a PC that came with it, but soon, that might be $5 a month in perpetuity, raising the Total Cost of Ownership of a Windows license to $300 over five years of owning a computer with it, or $600 over ten years. (Or more. Microsoft hasn't come clean on what the monthly fee for Windows 10 will be.) Soon, the Microsoft Windows OS won't justSep 13 23:20
DaemonFC[m]be a nightmare. It will end up costing as much as the computer it runs on.Sep 13 23:20
DaemonFC[m] More GNU/Linux users inbound? Maybe. I suspect that many people who Sep 13 23:22
DaemonFC[m]are used to models like Spotify will see the Windows Fee as just anotherSep 13 23:22
DaemonFC[m] subscription.... *sigh*Sep 13 23:22
cubexyzto fully escape M$ bad influence one must learn to read docs, how to compile and maintain programs, and even write their own docs if necessarySep 13 23:51
cubexyzotherwise one might find oneself paying the M$ subscription fee(s)Sep 13 23:52
cubexyzdoesn't have to be GNU/Linux... but that's probably your best betSep 13 23:57
cubexyzI do maintain one openbsd box and several chromebooksSep 13 23:58
cubexyzalong with many linux (mostly slackware) boxesSep 13 23:58
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Plasma 5.14 Beta Updates Discover, #KWin and Adds New Widgets #kde #gnu #linux []Sep 14 00:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Robots that run Ubuntu []Sep 14 00:33
kaniinimicrosoft are stepping up their game to EEE distributions using WSL: 14 00:34
kaniiniwe really need to design a license to deal with this new type of threatSep 14 00:34
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oiaohmkaniini: really WSL move is not new.   You have missed Unix  systems like Solaris providing Linux syscall emulation.  Even freebsd provides Linux syscall emulation.Sep 14 00:42
oiaohmkaniini: history says emulating Linux syscalls long term dooms your OS.Sep 14 00:43
kaniinithose are unix-likes though :)Sep 14 00:44
oiaohmblackberry having qnx emulating android by emulating Linux kernel.Sep 14 00:45
oiaohmis a recent one.Sep 14 00:45
oiaohmkaniini: can you think exactly why it a kiss of death.Sep 14 00:45
kaniinioiaohm because microsoft have a different visionSep 14 00:46
kaniiniyou're talking about app emulationSep 14 00:46
kaniinimicrosoft has an entirely different visionSep 14 00:46
kaniinithey want entire linux distros to become "apps"Sep 14 00:46
kaniiniinstead of downloading alpine or whatever, and running it on an actual machineSep 14 00:47
oiaohmThat exactly what blackberry was attempt to do to android.Sep 14 00:47
kaniiniyes, but android is the largest mobile phone OS in the worldSep 14 00:47
kaniiniwindows is the largest desktop OS :)Sep 14 00:47
kaniinithe power dynamics are a bit different :)Sep 14 00:47
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oiaohmReally the power dynamics are not exactly different.Sep 14 00:49
oiaohmApplication developers will always look for paths to reduce workload.Sep 14 00:49
oiaohmWe have seen it with wine.Sep 14 00:49
oiaohmWhere instead of making a Linux native port they assist wine to be compadible with their windows application.Sep 14 00:50
oiaohmWSL shift the dynamic.Sep 14 00:50
oiaohmI expect to see Microsoft drag feet as long as possible on graphical support for WSL.Sep 14 00:51
oiaohmkaniini: docker images think about it they contain one distribution but then run side a different one.Sep 14 00:56
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schestowitzkaniini: you could argue Google does the sameSep 14 01:00
schestowitzfirst croutonSep 14 01:00
schestowitznow deb packages under chromeosSep 14 01:00
kaniiniyeahSep 14 01:00
oiaohmThere is a long history of Unix emulating other Unixs.Sep 14 01:01
oiaohmMicrosoft NT use to emulatong OS/2Sep 14 01:01
oiaohmand OS/2 use to have emulator for windows.Sep 14 01:01
oiaohmWindows NT has a subsystem thing for a reason.Sep 14 01:02
oiaohmkaniini: one thing to remember you cannot write a windows program using pure windows syscalls and use it on many versions of windows.Sep 14 01:05
oiaohmLinux has syscall stablity.Sep 14 01:06
schestowitzkaniini: remember cygwinSep 14 01:08
schestowitzI used it around 2001Sep 14 01:08
schestowitznone of this is a thing we couldn't cope with beforeSep 14 01:08
schestowitzBut I agree with you WSL is very EEE-likeSep 14 01:08
oiaohmschestowitz: you are forgoting colinuxSep 14 01:09
cubexyzI'm not going to start running windows just because of WSL (or any other reason)Sep 14 01:10
cubexyzI'm not sure I'd even run windows if they gave me the complete source codeSep 14 01:10
oiaohmkaniini:  Microsoft has resisted toding this.Sep 14 01:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Cooperative LinuxSep 14 01:10
oiaohmYes WSL is very EEE like.   But there has always been the people wanting to run Linux application using Linux syscalls on windows.Sep 14 01:12
cubexyzgive me a computer with complete firmware source and documentation down to the register level, then we'll talkSep 14 01:12
cubexyzsince WGA my inclination to run doze is exactly zeroSep 14 01:15
cubexyzthey check your BIOS, MAC address and hard drive serial number and who knows what elseSep 14 01:17
cubexyzwhat if your motherboard dies? it's utter bollocksSep 14 01:18
schestowitzwe need to resist WSLSep 14 01:19
schestowitz(which I do)Sep 14 01:20
schestowitzbut not much more can be done beyond reminding people Vista 10 is spyware with back doorsSep 14 01:20
oiaohmOver 2/3 of Microsoft Azure business is managing Linux.Sep 14 01:20
schestowitz(so they don't use it full time, maybe only winker with WSL and then install 'proper' GNU/Linux)Sep 14 01:20
oiaohmSo it was any really a matter of time because the heavy internal usage of Linux in Microsoft was going to cause Linux compadiblity to come to desktop windows.Sep 14 01:22
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oiaohmkaniini:   WSL is part of a collection of changes Sep 14 01:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Microsoft is adding native OpenSSH to Windows 10 - The VergeSep 14 01:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Updates, Reproducible Builds, Network Manager VPNC, and Apache Struts []Sep 14 01:38
cubexyzmy local computer store sells no os computersSep 14 01:40
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 14 01:40 has a core2duo for $60 with ununtu on itSep 14 01:48
cubexyzubuntuSep 14 01:49
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cubexyznot that hard to avoid win10Sep 14 01:51
schestowitzvista10Sep 14 01:56
cubexyzfor $200 CAN you can get an 8 gig, I5 box with ubuntu Sep 14 01:57
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cubexyzat least you know the lenovo thinkcentres can run linuxSep 14 02:02
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DaemonFC[m]schestowitz It helps that WSL performance is even worse than running Ubuntu in an emulator in some ways.Sep 14 02:29
DaemonFC[m]They made WSL pointless by making it perform its job so poorly.Sep 14 02:29
schestowitzyeahSep 14 02:31
schestowitzas expectedSep 14 02:31
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Refund offered for Raspberry Pi PoE HAT due to power issues []Sep 14 04:05
oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: you would define Microsoft on WSL as a feature they have to implement to attempt to stop market share loss.   But they are resisting as much as possible.Sep 14 04:37
oiaohm  << Microsoft working on LinuxSep 14 04:43
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Azure Sphere: Fitting Linux Security in 4 MiB of RAM - Ryan Fairfax, Microsoft - YouTubeSep 14 04:43
schestowitzlolSep 14 04:54
schestowitzworking on hijacking LinuxSep 14 04:54
schestowitzand changing the narrativeSep 14 04:55
oiaohmschestowitz: not exactySep 14 05:14
oiaohmschestowitz: Microsoft has ceased making their own OS for embedded usage.Sep 14 05:14
oiaohmschestowitz: Azure Sphere using Linux kernel is filling that section of Microsoft Sep 14 05:15
oiaohmThis is death by thousand cuts.Sep 14 05:16
schestowitzmehSep 14 06:14
schestowitzI'd rather see them die without entryismSep 14 06:14
schestowitzthey harm the LF a lotSep 14 06:14
schestowitzOSI tooSep 14 06:14
schestowitzthey look to cause damageSep 14 06:14
schestowitzeven as they drownSep 14 06:14
oiaohmThe bad news is a big company like Microsoft does not lose relevancy quickly or silently.Sep 14 06:36
oiaohmLike if you said 10 years ago that Microsoft would be funding development of open source firmware include Linuxboot/coreboot in 10 years time most people would say are you pulling my leg that would never happen.  But that is the reality today.Sep 14 06:38
cubexyzI never heard of Microsoft funding corebootSep 14 06:42
oiaohmcubexyz: came out this years Linux security conference.Sep 14 06:44
oiaohmcubexyz: so it this year.Sep 14 06:44
oiaohmFirst they ignore you; then they abuse you; then they crack down on you and then you win. <<Mahatma Gandhi real quote.Sep 14 06:45
cubexyzneed to see links for that oneSep 14 06:46
oiaohmcubexyz:  came out in this video where the Microsoft staff person admits to what they have been working.Sep 14 06:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Open System Firmware Projects - Elaine Palmer, IBM Research - YouTubeSep 14 06:47
oiaohmcubexyz: on.Sep 14 06:47
cubexyzif anything intel boot guard and secure boot are impeding corebootSep 14 06:47
oiaohmcubexyz: being on stage on a pannel is always place for foot in mouth.Sep 14 06:48
oiaohmcubexyz: its coming out of Azure a lot.   Think about it Microsoft it now a cloud provider running massive number of servers.  Lot being Linux.  Now clean and functional and secure firmware is coming important to Microsoft bottom line.Sep 14 06:50
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Sep 14 06:52
schestowitzyou are thinking of awsSep 14 06:54
schestowitzmsft very distant from itSep 14 06:54
schestowitzit's just calling lots of things "cloud" and "azure" nowSep 14 06:55
oiaohmschestowitz: not awsSep 14 06:55
schestowitzpropping up the lie that it's catching up fast and is "viable"Sep 14 06:55
schestowitzaws is by far biggerSep 14 06:55
schestowitz(which isn't a good thing, either)Sep 14 06:55
cubexyzlistening... I see Google people, IBM people, oh and yes a microsoft person too, interestingSep 14 06:56
oiaohmschestowitz: Microsoft Azure datacentres 2/3 what running in it from customers is Linux something.    The switchs used in the Azure datacentres are open hardware with a controller OS based on debian.Sep 14 06:57
oiaohmschestowitz: basically its a very Linux place.Sep 14 06:57
oiaohmThere just has to be internal fights between those backing Linux a lot and those wanting to work on windows.Sep 14 07:00
oiaohmInside MicrosoftSep 14 07:01
cubexyzwell the open compute project is interestingSep 14 07:07
cubexyzRon is saying you can buy linuxboot OCP motherboards ready to goSep 14 07:08
cubexyzRon Minnich Sep 14 07:09
cubexyzstuff like Novena, which I have no idea what the status is nowSep 14 07:13
cubexyzthere's a good pdf from AMI believe it notSep 14 07:15
cubexyz 14 07:17
cubexyznot sure how that helps with oddball OSes thoughSep 14 07:18
MinceR 14 07:19
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schestowitzx 14 09:22
schestowitz# aiming for hostile takeover with the help of quislingsSep 14 09:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Resolving timed out after 10524 milliseconds ( status 0 @ )Sep 14 09:22
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat's Surveillance-Centric Alliance (Open Hybrid Architecture) and Dip []Sep 14 09:45
oiaohmschestowitz: Not exactly Microsoft increase in working on open source projects lines up with how much their income has come based on providing Linux services.Sep 14 11:15
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XRevan86ugh, /e/ (eelo) has Telegram pre-installedSep 14 14:57
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schestowitzXRevan86: is it that bad?Sep 14 14:58
schestowitzMaybe in RussiaSep 14 14:58
schestowitzafaik, XRevan86, it's kind of 'FOSS"Sep 14 14:59
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XRevan86schestowitz: Telegram is a proprietary service with false advertisement as the most secure thing everSep 14 14:59
schestowitzthough people trust the binaries in "stores"Sep 14 14:59
schestowitzApple, Google etc (NSA PRISM)Sep 14 14:59
schestowitzI don't trust any "apps"Sep 14 14:59
schestowitzNot even signalSep 14 15:00
schestowitzI don't trust any modern phoneSep 14 15:00
XRevan86Telegram's encryption has been critiqued many times.Sep 14 15:00
XRevan86and there were incidents like private chats showing up in the Google search, because they didn't put robot.txt on their invite linksSep 14 15:00
XRevan86schestowitz: Only their clients are (partly) FOSS.Sep 14 15:01
schestowitzok, got itSep 14 15:01
schestowitzanyway, I never used theseSep 14 15:01
schestowitzI assume all my calls are recorded and indexSep 14 15:01
schestowitzand so I talk only football and stuffSep 14 15:01
schestowitzvery dull thingsSep 14 15:01
XRevan86So that's why Telegram pre-installed on /e/ annoys meSep 14 15:02
XRevan86> Your data is your data;  We build desirable, open source, privacy-enabled smartphone operating systemsSep 14 15:03
XRevan86Then why not at least Wire? That thing has a FOSS server at least.Sep 14 15:03
XRevan86and doesn't require a phone number for registrationSep 14 15:04
XRevan86Or they could make an XMPP server and pre-install Conversations.Sep 14 15:04
MinceRor they could use ToxSep 14 15:05
XRevan86I don't know, Tox is pretty problematicSep 14 15:07
XRevan86Strictly from one device to another, and with an ID that is impossible to memoriseSep 14 15:07
schestowitzwhat about Ring?Sep 14 15:07 iircSep 14 15:07
XRevan86same dealSep 14 15:07
MinceRRing has an atrocious build systemSep 14 15:08
MinceRit refuses to build unless i give it root so it can fetch and install packages and it won't even tell me what it wants to installSep 14 15:08
XRevan86Maybe they changed something, though, I only checked it when it came out.Sep 14 15:08
MinceRyour devices can remember the Tox keys of your contactsSep 14 15:08
MinceRand if you want good security, you'll have to transfer the public keys out of band anywaySep 14 15:09
MinceRmight as well use them as the addressSep 14 15:09
XRevan86MinceR: With XMPP an OMEMO key is not transferred clear textSep 14 15:09
MinceRwith XMPP, if your XMPP server dies, your JID becomes useless, your roster becomes unreachable and you get to make contact with people all over againSep 14 15:11
MinceRor you get to use multiple servers simultaneously and show up as several users for everyoneSep 14 15:11
MinceRand XMPP servers are horribly unstableSep 14 15:11
XRevan86MinceR: Roster is locally cached, so…Sep 14 15:11
XRevan86MinceR: I use my own +, both work reliably well :PSep 14 15:11
XRevan86… for yearsSep 14 15:12
MinceRi switched several times, even used a public service that tracks downtimesSep 14 15:12
MinceRand bitlbee still spams me with reconnects all the timeSep 14 15:12
XRevan86 something from this list?Sep 14 15:14
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Server overview · XMPP Compliance TesterSep 14 15:14
MinceRnone of the 4 XMPP servers i've used so far appear on that listSep 14 15:15
MinceRi think there were others too, but that was before i started using bitlbeeSep 14 15:16
MinceRso i'm not sure what they wereSep 14 15:16
XRevan86MinceR: 14 15:18
MinceR¯\_(ツ)_/¯Sep 14 15:19
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XRevan86> or you get to use multiple servers simultaneously and show up as several users for everyoneSep 14 15:22
XRevan86BTW, sounds like what happens when a Tox users uses multiple devices %)Sep 14 15:22
XRevan86* when a Tox userSep 14 15:23
MinceRif an XMPP user uses multiple devices, they show as multiple resourcesSep 14 15:25
MinceRand of course that means multiple resources for every JIDSep 14 15:25
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XRevan86MinceR: And no one cares about resources these days.Sep 14 15:26
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XRevan86With such thing like message carbons it just doesn't matter to which resource to send the message.Sep 14 15:27
XRevan86* With such a thingSep 14 15:28
XRevan86I miss "XEP-0308: Last Message Correction" :PSep 14 15:29
MinceRthere also needs to be an XEP for Penultimate Message Correction :Sep 14 15:32
MinceR:>Sep 14 15:32
XRevan86MinceR: hehSep 14 15:33
schestowitzif you want private talk, use sauna or jacuzziSep 14 15:52
schestowitzno microphones there :-)Sep 14 15:52
MinceRhow do you know?Sep 14 15:53
XRevan86jacuzzi-over-ethernetSep 14 15:53
MinceR[ Applications found : 0 ]Sep 14 15:53
MinceRfor both ;)Sep 14 15:53
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DaemonFC[m]XMPP seems to be dead.Sep 14 19:31
DaemonFC[m]All of the major implementations have ceased to operate.Sep 14 19:31
schestowitzhhmmmSep 14 19:32
schestowitzthe protocol works ok for meSep 14 19:32
schestowitzdid cisco buy it really?Sep 14 19:32
DaemonFC[m]Not sure, but Google Talk and Facebook Chat no longer support it.Sep 14 19:32
MinceRfiasco systems indeed bought Jabber, Inc.Sep 14 19:33
MinceRand fucked them upSep 14 19:33
DaemonFC[m]I don't know if DuckDuckGo still has their server on.Sep 14 19:33
MinceR"WebEx Connect" changed the protocol in an incompatible waySep 14 19:33
MinceR(also, it's a bloated pile of shit)Sep 14 19:33
DaemonFC[m]I'm going to have to replace my cable modem eventually.Sep 14 19:33
MinceRXMPP survived Jabber, Inc., thoughSep 14 19:33
DaemonFC[m]Comcast says it's incompatible with my speed package, not that I ever got close to the stated speed anyway, in 17 years, even with their modem.Sep 14 19:34
DaemonFC[m]I'm trying to hold on with this one until combo modem router units come out that have DOCSIS 3.1 support.Sep 14 19:35
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DaemonFC[m]Mine is an 8x4 DOCSIS 3.0 model. Comcast is lying about the speed. They say my package is now 250 Mbps. An 8x4 should be good up to 400, iirc,  which leads me to believe that they're limiting the speed to pitch an $11 a month modem rental. Bastards.Sep 14 19:37
DaemonFC[m]That leaves me with a few choices. Get a better DOCSIS 3.0 unit and risk having it become obsolete sooner rather than later, pay Comcast another $11 each month for one of their units, or keep using what I have until it either breaks down or they force it off their network, either all at once or by slowly sabotaging my connection until I surrender.Sep 14 19:39
DaemonFC[m]Or I guess, option 4. Try to push this piece of crap that I have long enough for the 3.1 units to be out and then buy a steeply discounted 24x8 or something DOCSIS 3.0 in the secondhand market for $50-60 and hope that Comcast doesn't get nasty with DOCSIS 3.0 users for some time to come.Sep 14 19:42
schestowitztessier: network was very slowSep 14 19:43
schestowitzfor almost an hourSep 14 19:43
DaemonFC[m]From what their rep was hinting at, they have configured their channels in such a way that even though mine can bond 8 channels down and 4 up, Comcast isn't using the maximum possible bandwidth on each channel, rendering the device incapable of reaching its advertised speeds. Maybe there's a legitimate reason for this, and maybe Netgear just overpromised what the piece of shit could really do.Sep 14 19:43
schestowitznow it seems to be downSep 14 19:43
DaemonFC[m]So, it would seem if you're going to use Comcast's higher tiers, you can't expect an 8x4 to work properly, even if it says on the box that it can.Sep 14 19:44
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DaemonFC[m]And if you rent a Comcast unit, it creates an XFINITYWIFI network for their other customers to log into your  internet connection with. Comcast says it's secure, but I doubt it, and it would stop the modem from going into low power mode when it's idle, so you're paying the electric bill for Comcast to do this to you.Sep 14 19:46
DaemonFC[m]They'd probably toss in a bitcoin miner if they thought they could get away with it.Sep 14 19:46
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DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: I was talking to someone on Facebook. WGN reported some Windows 10 nuisances, and I pointed out that they are just symptoms of a larger disease, that is Windows, and the only way to fix it is to use a different OS, such as a GNU/Linux distribution. Sep 14 19:48
DaemonFC[m]Someone replied that they used a Mac because of that. I replied that while macOS might not be as bad as Windows 10 as far as spying on people and foisting ads into the desktop, it was because Apple had already made a ton of money off of him on the front end, and that they went further by requiring him to buy other Apple products, like an iPhone, if he wanted all of it to work with his computer.Sep 14 19:49
DaemonFC[m]You can't buy an Android phone and pair it with a Mac, afaik. The backup is integrated with Apple Time Capsule, so you can't just buy a normal NAS device, iTunes won't sync a non-Apple MP3 player, etc.Sep 14 19:51
DaemonFC[m]They use all of their products as hooks to get you to buy their other products.Sep 14 19:51
DaemonFC[m]So, after Windows Phone flopped, Microsoft decided to "embrace" Android. They even have an Edge browser for it. Sep 14 19:53
DaemonFC[m]I tried that out. It wasn't terribly impressive. Many of the features don't even work if you don't use Edge on Windows 10. It's designed as a way to share browser context between your phone and your computer, with both Opera and Firefox have done all along.Sep 14 19:55
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schestowitz[19:53] <DaemonFC[m]> So, after Windows Phone flopped, Microsoft decided to "embrace" Android. They even have an Edge browser for it. Sep 14 20:08
schestowitzI doubt many would download itSep 14 20:08
schestowitzso many they can threaten OEMsSep 14 20:08
schestowitzpay us for patents or preload our junk insteadSep 14 20:08
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DaemonFC[m]schestowitz: Yeah, well, Samsung doesn't seem to be bundling it like they used to.Sep 14 20:09
DaemonFC[m]Perhaps they got too many complaints.Sep 14 20:10
DaemonFC[m]A 32 GB phone that came with 3 GB of useless Microsoft crap that you couldn't even delete without rooting probably made some people a little cranky.Sep 14 20:10
DaemonFC[m]That was the Galaxy S6.Sep 14 20:10
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schestowitztest: s Sep 14 20:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | 8 Lesser Known Yet Awesome Text Editors | Tux MachinesSep 14 20:17
schestowitzokSep 14 20:17
schestowitzwe had some network-related issuesSep 14 20:17
schestowitzbandwidth maxed, should be ok nowSep 14 20:18
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: AMD: RADV, AMDKFD, AMDGPU []Sep 14 20:22
MinceR 14 20:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Caturday photoshoot with Milo - Album on ImgurSep 14 20:23
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Slimbook Kymera Aqua is a Powerful Water-Cooled Linux PC []Sep 14 20:26
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #ACEINNA Launches the First Open Source IMU Development Kit for Drones, Robots and AGVs []Sep 14 20:32
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Lights, Camera, Open Source: Hollywood Turns to Linux for New Code Sharing Initiative []Sep 14 20:37
schestowitz[20:10] <DaemonFC[m]> That was the Galaxy S6.Sep 14 20:39
schestowitzyeah, disgustingSep 14 20:39
schestowitzI wrote about what Microsoft had done to themSep 14 20:39
schestowitzhave not paid sufficient attention for a while though, as I cover other thingsSep 14 20:39
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: SD Times Open Source Project of the Week: #freedesktop .org []Sep 14 20:43
MinceR 14 20:47
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: The biggest implementations – ejabberd, Prosody, Openfire (on the server side), Conversations on Android, ChatSecure on iOS, Gajim on the desktop, work quite fine.Sep 14 20:52
XRevan86Facebook never counted as a legitimate implementation of XMPP.Sep 14 20:52
XRevan86Towards the end of Google Talk, I had almost no one with it in my roster, same as with Yandex.Online.Sep 14 20:54
XRevan86Within the XMPP community they started losing relevance before that as their servers gradually became outdated.Sep 14 20:55
XRevan86Google Talk famously worked badly with MUCs.Sep 14 20:55
XRevan86and had various other quirksSep 14 20:55
schestowitzMinceR: familiarSep 14 20:58
XRevan86So if crap like Google Talk and Facebook really were the major implementations of XMPP, then it's good that XMPP is "dead"Sep 14 21:00
XRevan86The QIP's XMPP server was also very big back in the day. It's still up.Sep 14 21:00
XRevan86But it is no longer in the XMPP federation because every up-to-date server blocks SSLv3 connections.Sep 14 21:01
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Coreboot Improvements For FU540 Land Following #SiFive 's Open-Source Boot Code []Sep 14 21:06
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Python #Programming and Politics, Events []Sep 14 21:08
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #VKMS Driver Getting Cursor Support In The Next Kernel Cycle []Sep 14 21:12
DaemonFC[m]I'm grabbing a Fedora 29 nightly to check it out.Sep 14 21:32
DaemonFC[m]May go ahead and install it if it works okay.Sep 14 21:32
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Chrome 69 Tip for GNU/Linux and Beta of Next Chrome Release []Sep 14 21:33
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 14 21:43
DaemonFC[m] 14 21:43
MinceR:)Sep 14 21:48
schestowitzlooks fake to me :-)Sep 14 21:48
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DaemonFC[m]I unlocked one of my old credit cards and ordered a pizza with it.Sep 14 22:17
DaemonFC[m]Have to use it at least once a year or they close the account, and since that account is 6 years old, having it closed would drag down my credit rating significantly. :PSep 14 22:17
DaemonFC[m]So I need to keep it open for at least another couple of years until my next oldest card is over 6 years old.Sep 14 22:18
DaemonFC[m]I've more or less figured out the FICO score, which is why I'm up to 780. :PSep 14 22:18
MinceR:)Sep 14 22:18
DaemonFC[m]They actually do punish you for bizarre reasons, MinceR Sep 14 22:19
DaemonFC[m]They like to keep the exact workings a secret, but enough people have said what affected their score that we have an idea of how it works.Sep 14 22:19
DaemonFC[m]Like, people with just a car loan pay it off, then it's no longer an open account and their credit score drops 60 points.Sep 14 22:19
DaemonFC[m]Not what you'd expect to have happen after making 66 payments on time and finishing off the loan in good standing, but it happens. :PSep 14 22:20
DaemonFC[m]It's not that it does punish you for not being in debt, it's that it punishes you for not having a very long average open account age.Sep 14 22:22
DaemonFC[m] 14 22:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Fedora 29 Beta Has Been Delayed - PhoronixSep 14 22:35
DaemonFC[m]They delay the beta because it won't boot on the Raspberry Pi?Sep 14 22:35
DaemonFC[m]I guess if it doesn't delay the final release, then whatever. Seems like a silly reason to hold up the Beta though.Sep 14 22:36
XRevan86 14 22:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Alexei Sorokin ('s status on Friday, 14-Sep-2018 21:38:51 UTC - LoadAverageSep 14 22:47
XRevan86Some day 2018-09-14 turned out to be %)Sep 14 22:48
XRevan86 the other sideSep 14 22:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Vigdis :flan_set_fire:: "I didn't ban some asshole at the first time becau…" - MastodonSep 14 22:50
XRevan86Yep, that's me.Sep 14 22:51
XRevan86 oh boySep 14 22:56
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Vigdis :flan_set_fire:: "Current status" - MastodonSep 14 22:56
DaemonFC[m] 14 22:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | GNOME 3.30 Release NotesSep 14 22:57
*DaemonFC[m] sent a long message: < >Sep 14 22:59
DaemonFC[m]I wonder what they're referring to. Maybe that mroe aggressive garbage collection in the Shell.Sep 14 22:59
cubexyzare they locking out boot from usb on new motherboards?Sep 14 23:09
cubexyzor even boot from DVD/CDSep 14 23:10
schestowitzXRevan86: banned from all of it?Sep 14 23:12
XRevan86schestowitz: Of course not. Just one person's private instance.Sep 14 23:12
schestowitzhahaSep 14 23:12
XRevan86But I'm starting to get why some people find the network unwelcomingSep 14 23:14
XRevan86But oh well, it just got big enough…Sep 14 23:14
schestowitzyeahSep 14 23:15
schestowitzi got kicked off my instanceSep 14 23:15
schestowitzthen, gnusocial de just shut downSep 14 23:15
schestowitzso now I start afresh on a third oneSep 14 23:15
schestowitzwhat a "success story"Sep 14 23:15
schestowitzbtw, joindiaspora was defunct for 5 daysSep 14 23:15
XRevan864 years ago I couldn't think someone would ban me for pitching-in in a conversation and calmly disagreeing with someone.Sep 14 23:16
schestowitzthen the "podmin" finally fixed itSep 14 23:16
schestowitzif you are Russian with a Russian IP address, they now have a different excuseSep 14 23:16
schestowitz"Russian bots"Sep 14 23:16
schestowitz"hackers"Sep 14 23:16
schestowitz"election meddling"Sep 14 23:16
schestowitzall the corporate media buzz is breeding stigmaSep 14 23:17
XRevan86Also the guy apparently wanted to make the report to disroot in private, and then it got reposted, and now the opposing replies he got got him angrySep 14 23:18
XRevan86I find the idea of reporting someone for saying something ugly on the Internet to the E-mail provider very… Stalin-like?Sep 14 23:19
XRevan86Just to teach someone a lessonSep 14 23:19
XRevan86- Hello, Comcast, this person you're giving Internet access to, has said that I'm a terrible person, and other epithets that I am not allowed to say on the phone. Please ban him forever.Sep 14 23:21
schestowitzComcast does do thisSep 14 23:22
XRevan86schestowitz: It's weird to see Internet get so much censorship these days, not all even from the governments.Sep 14 23:22
schestowitzon a per-server masisSep 14 23:22
schestowitzbasisSep 14 23:22
schestowitzthey blacklisted many servers of emailSep 14 23:22
schestowitzbellsouth (US) banned mine about a decade agoSep 14 23:22
schestowitzit still is banned for some reasonSep 14 23:23
schestowitzit's from the government, XRevan86Sep 14 23:23
schestowitzgovernment-connected firmsSep 14 23:23
schestowitzbecause they are less accountable to peopleSep 14 23:23
schestowitzthey don't need to earn our vote and get electedSep 14 23:23
XRevan86schestowitz: I mean, like this guy wanted to ban some jerk from the mailing list and banned me just for saying that's not wise.Sep 14 23:24
XRevan86schestowitz: He is not the governmentSep 14 23:24
XRevan86and I see other attempts of people to get some form of control over what happens on the InternetSep 14 23:24
schestowitzeveryone, it's naturalSep 14 23:24
XRevan86as if it *must* reflect their ideal of itSep 14 23:24
schestowitzbut bans are extreme unless it's purely spamSep 14 23:25
XRevan86That jerk from the mailing list is Russian, BTW %).Sep 14 23:26
XRevan86And I could tell even without looking at the name.Sep 14 23:27
XRevan86It is not that uncommon for Russians to be disrespectful on the Internet, to speak their minds like that.Sep 14 23:28
XRevan86Take that, multiculturalism (:Sep 14 23:28
cubexyzXRevan86, the freedos people told me that they don't support UEFI, so if your motherboard has UEFI you're then no freedos Sep 14 23:42
cubexyzcoreboot is no problem (it has seabios)Sep 14 23:42
cubexyzs/you're//Sep 14 23:42
XRevan86cubexyz: Well, duh %)Sep 14 23:42
XRevan86cubexyz: I did give you that info, including the rationale :)Sep 14 23:43
XRevan86it couldn't possibly work with UEFISep 14 23:43
cubexyzok, guess I forgotSep 14 23:43
XRevan86It's like expecting the Sun to appear pink tomorrow.Sep 14 23:43
cubexyzseabios can work with CSM thoughSep 14 23:48
XRevan86cubexyz: How? o_0Sep 14 23:49
XRevan86cubexyz: do you mean this?Sep 14 23:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - WikipediaSep 14 23:49
cubexyzspecial seabios versionSep 14 23:49
XRevan86Ah, so tianocore or something can integrate with seabios to provide MBR compatibility?Sep 14 23:49
cubexyz 14 23:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Build overview - SeaBIOSSep 14 23:50
cubexyzprobably still a pain, never tried itSep 14 23:51
cubexyzeven if intel drops CSM maybe AMD will do something?Sep 14 23:52
XRevan86cubexyz: Um, it's not about processors.Sep 14 23:52
XRevan86cubexyz: It's about Tianocore and InsydeH2OSep 14 23:52
XRevan86Intel owns InsydeH2OSep 14 23:53
XRevan86so the alternatives are, well, AMI and PhoenixSep 14 23:53
cubexyzoh, I didn't realize intel wasn't using AMI anymoreSep 14 23:53
XRevan86which probably use Tianocore as well, but they could patch itSep 14 23:53
XRevan86Hm, maybe Intel doesn't own them…Sep 14 23:55
XRevan86I guess I was misinformedSep 14 23:55
XRevan86 nothing hereSep 14 23:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Insyde Software - WikipediaSep 14 23:55
XRevan86> In 2001, the two companies entered into a joint development agreementSep 14 23:56
XRevan86cubexyz: It's up to the motherboard producer, what BIOS to use.Sep 14 23:58
XRevan86With Acer's you'll be InsydeH2O, with ASUS AMI, with Lenovo their own thing on Thinkpad and InsydeH2O on IdeapadsSep 14 23:58
MinceR 15 00:00
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectSep 15 00:00
cubexyzwell, there's still dosbox and qemuSep 15 00:03
cubexyzI still use dosbox sometimesSep 15 00:03
XRevan86cubexyz: Some say DOSBox has its limitations, but I never reached them %)Sep 15 00:04
cubexyzwell, if the dos program crashes it's better to use dosbox than booting into freedosSep 15 00:04
cubexyzdosbox is slower thoughSep 15 00:04
XRevan86Oh, there's also thing wonderful thing called VirtualBox (:Sep 15 00:05
XRevan86almost forgot about itSep 15 00:05
XRevan86and QEMUSep 15 00:05
XRevan86QEMU: Run FreeDOS even on MIPS, who caresSep 15 00:06
XRevan86cubexyz: DOSBox throttles because even when it's slow, it's not slow enough %)Sep 15 00:16
XRevan86to emulate a machine from the 80sSep 15 00:16
MinceR 15 00:28
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectSep 15 00:28
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DaemonFC[m]I got Fedora 29 with GNOME 3.30 set up. Sep 15 00:33
MinceR 15 00:43
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectSep 15 00:43
XRevan86MinceR: huh?Sep 15 00:44
MinceR"no overtaking from the right"Sep 15 00:45
cubexyzwell, in the old days I did some msdos programmingSep 15 00:53
cubexyzeven some CP/M stuff :)Sep 15 00:54
XRevan86Yeah, me tooSep 15 00:54
XRevan86the year was 2014…Sep 15 00:54
cubexyzhahaSep 15 00:54
DaemonFC[m]With Acer's you'll be InsydeH2O, with ASUS AMI, with Lenovo their own thing on Thinkpad and InsydeH2O on IdeapadsSep 15 00:55
DaemonFC[m]Yeah, the Yoga 900 ISK2 is an "IdeaPad", and Lenovo had modified the Insyde BIOS to not let you put the storage controller into AHCI mode.Sep 15 00:55
DaemonFC[m]That way, it was only possible to use Windows 10.Sep 15 00:55
DaemonFC[m]I finally managed to get them to fix it, after a bunch of negative press coverage and asking the state of Illinois to get involved.Sep 15 00:56
cubexyzLenovo doesn't fill me with confidence, but I _know_ that thinkcentres run linuxSep 15 00:56
DaemonFC[m]They blew me off until the Attorney General's office contacted them to look into it.Sep 15 00:56
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Nice workSep 15 00:56
DaemonFC[m]I was surprised that the state actually got their consumer complaints division to open a case.Sep 15 00:56
DaemonFC[m]Apparently, you don't even need the fix for that now.Sep 15 01:00
DaemonFC[m]The BIOS "RAID" controller is supported by Linux, because Intel released the driver code shortly after that incident, after refusing for over a year to tell the kernel developers anything about it.Sep 15 01:01
DaemonFC[m]The way I heard it, the maintainers of the storage subsystem had asked Intel about it and Intel wouldn't even reply.Sep 15 01:02
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: What does the "RAID" controller even do?Sep 15 01:02
XRevan86it can't be an actual RAID, can it?Sep 15 01:02
DaemonFC[m]No, it isn't. The explanation I got was that if Windows 10 is left to make a decision about how to handle the storage controller, if it's in AHCI mode, it will go ahead and load a generic driver that has no power management policy, so the whole CPU package can never power down because the data link will always be active. :/Sep 15 01:03
DaemonFC[m]Instead of getting the info on how to implement power management from Intel and building this into Windows 10, Microsoft told OEMs to make it look like a RAID device so that Window wouldn't know what it was and would go searching for a driver, which would be the Intel Rapid Storage Technology driver, that the OEM had preinstalled. :)Sep 15 01:04
DaemonFC[m]Microsoft then said that to comply with the Windows Sticker Program, OEMs had to lock the "optimal" settings into the BIOS so that users could never "accidentally" change them.Sep 15 01:06
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: I see Microsoft hasn't lost their enterprise touch with solving problems.Sep 15 01:06
DaemonFC[m]Which, in this context, would cause Windows 10 to BSOD, and if you did somehow get it to work, the power management wouldn't function correctly and your 10 hour battery would only run for 4 hours or so.Sep 15 01:06
DaemonFC[m]Yeah. So, I think that Intel released the driver code and documentation because the other alternative was to let the user set AHCI mode and potentially fuck up Windows 10.Sep 15 01:07
DaemonFC[m]The way I hear it, the special "Linux" BIOS from Lenovo was only for the 900 ISK2.Sep 15 01:07
DaemonFC[m]The newer models don't have the AHCI mode support, but you can install Linux on them because of the driver that Intel released for the Linux kernel to handle this situation.Sep 15 01:08
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Can't have that, the usee fooling around, messing up settingsSep 15 01:08
DaemonFC[m]I suppose that I could probably put my BIOS back to "RAID" mode and install Fedora on it, but there would be no point.Sep 15 01:08
DaemonFC[m]On Linux, the power management policy for the storage controller works either way.Sep 15 01:09
DaemonFC[m]The "RAID" mode just adds another level of complexity and it gains you absolutely nothing except the potential that there's a bug in Intel's driver that causes data loss.Sep 15 01:10
DaemonFC[m]The driver is small, but not entirely trivial.Sep 15 01:12
DaemonFC[m]A few hundred lines of code. Sep 15 01:12
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oiaohmDaemonFC[m]: that raid mode under windows acts a lot like bcache  intel not talking about it make me wonder if it minix all over again except inside that firmware.Sep 15 01:27
MinceR 15 01:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectSep 15 01:31
cubexyzbtw, how did the linux users update the BIOS on the Yoga?Sep 15 01:32
XRevan86cubexyz: Downloaded a Windows LiveCD from TPB maybe? %)Sep 15 01:33
cubexyzor maybe they had to update the BIOS start, then put linux onSep 15 01:33
cubexyzyeahSep 15 01:33
cubexyzs/start/first/Sep 15 01:33
MinceRi doubt they could even buy it without a winblows license and imageSep 15 01:34
MinceR(preloaded, i mean)Sep 15 01:34
cubexyzI'm not sure the ideapads had cd drivesSep 15 01:35
cubexyzwell, "microsoft signature edition pc" <--- you know you're in for some painSep 15 01:37
cubexyzironic that the bios update was delivered as a windows executableSep 15 01:47
cubexyzyou might want to archive that just in case it disappearsSep 15 01:49
cubexyz 15 01:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Resolving timed out after 10523 milliseconds ( status 0 @ )Sep 15 01:50
XRevan86Like I'd buy that laptop.Sep 15 02:07
cubexyzi'm all ears for any recommendationsSep 15 02:07
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MinceRthinkpads still seem to be decent, even though the new keyboard is nowhere near as good as the old oneSep 15 02:11
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MinceR 15 02:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | ImgurSep 15 02:35
oiaohmIf only the pi had more ram 15 02:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Pi-Top (Gray) AustraliaSep 15 02:38
cubexyzI suppose one gig of ram maximumSep 15 03:31
oiaohmcubexyz: pi 3 is 2 gig ram but for me I need 4G for general desktop between libreoffice and multi browser tabs I am not a light memory user.Sep 15 03:56
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #DXVK 0.72 and #Wine 3.16 []Sep 15 05:07
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU/Linux Games: The Culling, Overwatch, and Frozen Synapse 2 []Sep 15 05:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Touch-enabled version of Raspberry Pi based Kano kit arrives []Sep 15 05:16
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Nano-ITX dev kit shows off Samsung Exynos 8895 []Sep 15 05:19
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: NetworkManager 1.14 Officially Released With A Lot Of Networking Goodies []Sep 15 05:22
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: ​Cloud Foundry survey finds top enterprise languages []Sep 15 05:27
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Massive Release of Open Data (Dataset) []Sep 15 05:40
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The #CommonsClause causes open-source disruption []Sep 15 05:42
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat and Fedora: ​Ansible Tower 3.3, New Build (ISO) of F28, More F29 Delays, FPgM Report, Financial Results Next Wednesday []Sep 15 05:54
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Entryism, Alpine Linux, , FUD, and Securonix Threat Research on Osiris []Sep 15 06:09
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux vs Mac: 7 Reasons Why Linux is a Better Choice than Mac []Sep 15 06:15
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #linux Graphics: AMD and NVIDIA Latest []Sep 15 06:18
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How Kubernetes' Founder is Building an Un-Distribution at #Heptio []Sep 15 06:23
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Sep 15 06:27
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS Leftovers []Sep 15 06:39
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian-based Liberado MiniNo Queiles 3.1 LTS, Early Look at Debian-based Elive 3.0 and a DD's Request []Sep 15 06:47
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's #tuxmachines leftovers []Sep 15 07:43
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 15/9/2018: Wine 3.16, Overwatch's GNU/Linux (Wine) 'Ban', New Fedora 28 Build, and Fedora 29 Beta Delay []Sep 15 07:51
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DaemonFC[m]btw, how did the linux users update the BIOS on the Yoga?Sep 15 09:56
DaemonFC[m]You downloaded the updater program and ran it on Windows, and then you could install a different OS.Sep 15 09:56
DaemonFC[m]I'm not sure the ideapads had cd drivesSep 15 09:56
DaemonFC[m]They don't have optical storage drives. Too bulky and not many people use them.Sep 15 09:56
DaemonFC[m]i doubt they could even buy it without a winblows license and imageSep 15 09:57
DaemonFC[m]They have Windows branding all over the place. I put a GNOME sticker over the Windows logo under the screen on mine.Sep 15 09:57
DaemonFC[m] 15 10:00
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Browser maker Opera successfully begins trading on NASDAQ – TechCrunchSep 15 10:00
DaemonFC[m]I wonder if there's any money to make on Opera. The usage share of their browsers have always been a rounding error on desktop, and they used to have a niche on mobile, but the market is saturated there too now.Sep 15 10:01
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oiaohm  the strange stuff that turns up.Sep 15 10:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-x86 finds its way into your iPhone | lcq2.github.ioSep 15 10:29
schestowitz[10:01] <DaemonFC[m]> I wonder if there's any money to make on Opera. The usage share of their browsers have always been a rounding error on desktop, and they used to have a niche on mobile, but the market is saturated there too now.Sep 15 10:47
schestowitzChinese-owned nowSep 15 10:47
schestowitzI wonder what their business model iSep 15 10:47
schestowitz*isSep 15 10:47
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schestowitzafter they got bought they added vpnSep 15 10:47
schestowitzmaybe one like facebook's notorious vpn that apple's has since then banned (google should too)Sep 15 10:48
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oiaohmschestowitz:  Yep you have to wonder how they can afford to do this for free without data collecting and selling the data.Sep 15 10:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Free VPN | Browser with built-in VPN | Download | OperaSep 15 10:53
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Behind the #GNOME 3.30 Release Video []Sep 15 10:56
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: A Summay of #deepin 15.6 and 15.7 []Sep 15 11:02
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The 'New' #Microsoft []Sep 15 11:15
XRevan86oiaohm: x86? Yeah, that's pretty insaneSep 15 11:18
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oiaohmXRevan86: its not 100 percent strange is the diversity argument.  Since the core is arm the baseband should be something different so attack from one cpu type cannot go to other cpu type simply.   Of course this does not 100 percent pass the sanity test.Sep 15 11:38
XRevan86oiaohm: But it's also x86, which is one of the crappiest architectures aroundSep 15 11:39
oiaohmx86 is not in fact the worst that they could use.Sep 15 11:39
oiaohmat least x86 has some audit tools.Sep 15 11:39
XRevan86oiaohm: You make me scared %)Sep 15 11:40
oiaohmXRevan86: intel ME processor these days using a Intel Quark x86-based 32-bit CPU  sounds bad until you work out prior to ME 11 it was using an  ARCTangent-A4Sep 15 11:42
oiaohm ARCTangent-A4 got no concept of memory protection.Sep 15 11:43
oiaohmAll it memory is read/write and execute.Sep 15 11:43
oiaohmSo at least a Quark x86 cpu is more sane than that.Sep 15 11:44
oiaohmXRevan86: x86 is bad but really scary there is a lot worse.Sep 15 11:44
oiaohmXRevan86: question what was the prior baseband processor in prior iphones.  It possible that the x86 chip make what was there look insane.Sep 15 11:47
XRevan86oiaohm: ARM, the guy talked about itSep 15 11:48
oiaohmEven some arm chips are insanely bad with no mmu or mpuSep 15 12:06
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-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Rubius - Album on ImgurSep 15 16:24
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XRevan86MinceR: This is nutsSep 15 18:08
XRevan861. I don't agree words have inherent connotations and that some people literally cannot use some words whilst others can.Sep 15 18:09
XRevan862. The us-them distinction here is disgusting.Sep 15 18:09
MinceRindeed, people are nutsSep 15 18:10
MinceRwhich is the pointSep 15 18:10
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Sep 15 18:28
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-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-The Bear 1988 720p Wildlife Story 5 1 English - YouTubeSep 15 18:38
schestowitzgreat filmSep 15 18:38
schestowitzsomeone posted a clip of a portion from it recentlySep 15 18:38
schestowitzin irc IIRCSep 15 18:38
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