cbrtrnx[m]13:56:17 Do you mean this one? https://edwardsnowden.substack.com/p/lifting-the-mask gerikson13:56:57 excuse it's a *Substack* not a "blog" ;) cbrtrnx[m]14:03:22 Then where is the blog? On twitter? ← ybaumy has left (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) → ybaumy has joined Librarian14:38:33 Roy's biggest concern is that he wants to be able to silence people who contradict his "socially-constructed" "narrative." Roy is not in favor of the Chicago Statement of Principles, and isn't capable of providing evidence to support his opinions. For example, how many times have you seen him (falsely) claim that QT is now now proprietary software? It isn't; I've provided links to where it can be downloaded under the GPL several times and he simply ignores it. The bigger problem is race-baiting and political partisanship. He's very racist, and very politically partisan, so anyone who contradicts the "socially-constructed" "narratives" of his cult membership, he wants to be able to ban. So, probably better to stay in a channel where he doesn't have power to contravene the presentation of evidence. cbrtrnx[m]14:47:38 Well, I know his websites and postings and definitely wouldn't agree to some of the statements above. I'm not sure about the channel here, but there was something about the staff being against RMS a while ago. Anyhow, it's a free choice anyway to follow his postings/sites or not. → psymin has joined Librarian15:05:15 Right, but it's not a free choice to speak up against when he states outright-false things, and especially uses them to silence people who provide evidence that what he's posted is false. He *DOES* +q people for doing that. He could simply /ignore them, but that's not sufficient for him. He attempts to *stop other people* from discussing the things he says that are false as well. And, as we've seen in his channels this morning, he's very hypocritical about it, complaining about "cancel culture" when he does it himself. psymin15:12:18 whowhat? Librarian15:12:54 Schestowitz was in here spamming last night, because he can't stand the idea that people are talking about tech rights without giving him the ability to silence them. psymin15:13:55 to be fair, the conversation does get a bet far from "tech" bit* Librarian15:14:23 That's true; he's been posting a lot of overtly-political stuff lately, hasn't he. Librarian15:15:29 Especially in support of his particular cult of political partisanship. That's probably why he feels the need to +q or otherwise silence people who don't belong to his cult: that's just how cults work. They *have* to police (by force if necessary) the "social construction" of their cult's "narratives.: psymin15:15:32 I mean the conversation here. Librarian, please share an example :) psymin15:18:00 I do like to be very aware of a certain type of cult in my surroundings Librarian15:20:02 Okay, this one's not political, but it's a clear example of the "far from 'tech'" trend: [TechrightsBot-tr/tr] sputniknews.com | Ghislaine Maxwell Showed Socialite Pal How to Perform Oral Sex, Report Says - Sputnik International psymin15:21:48 so he's straying from techrights in chat from time to time? Librarian15:30:48 Yep, and in the links he posts. Which *I* don't have a problem with, but if anyone tries to stick up for him silencing people over that, they'd have to expect the same for Schestowitz himself. psymin15:32:15 sounds like you're pointing out potential hypocrisy? I can understand that urge, especially when someone has had their communication suppressed. Librarian15:32:32 Not "potential." Evidenced hypocrisy. psymin15:33:30 I'll get another cup of coffee and ponder this. I have opinions. I also want us to all just get along :) Librarian15:34:07 That would be nice, but "all just getting along" is not compatible with the policing of speech necessary to solidify the dominance of one's cult. psymin15:34:45 Librarian, please elaborate on which cult it is. I don't think that the cult I'm thinking of would tolerate techrights existence. I think we're allies here at least in some important ways. Librarian15:36:10 In his book, "A Conflict of Visions," Thomas Sowell identified it as "the unconstrained vision." You might have seen me recommend that book to David yesterday, but that reminds me, I need to upload it to a web server for him. (And you, if you want to see it.) psymin15:37:09 I don't know folks by name. Faceless monospaced usernames :) I've heard of it, but I'm also quite lazy. Librarian15:37:39 I'll give you a link when I get it uploaded. psymin15:42:33 which ereader do you use? Hey this is tech! Librarian15:48:43 Barnes and Noble Nook, for one... 1. It supports the ".epub" open standard file format 2. It allows side-loading such epubs without having to be connected to "the cloud" (it can be used with the wifi turned off completely, after initial setup) 3. It's waterproof (the latest version of it) 4. It has buttons to turn pages, so it doesn't require me to obscure the screen with my fingers in order to use it I also have a Kobo book reader, of which all of the above are also true except for #4 psymin15:54:55 I kind of want this https://onyxboox.com/boox_poke2color ooh or this! https://onyxboox.com/boox_nova3color cbrtrnx[m]15:57:14 Here is an opensource development: https://xnux.eu/devices/pocketbook-touch-lux-3.html psymin15:57:57 cbrtrnx[m], neat :) Librarian16:00:14 Oh, one other feature that *must* be mentioned (but I mistakenly omitted) was the orange lighting. I know the big fad is to light everything up with blue, but that's horrendous for reading books before bed. So, both the Barnes and Noble Nook and the Kobo e-readers let you use an orange-only frontlight full-time. And I wouldn't be willing to switch to any other device that lacks that feature. cbrtrnx[m]16:01:10 I like this one (would be great with a similar project like the one above): https://pocketbook.ch/en-ch/catalog/color/pocketbook-inkpad-color-ch Librarian16:03:30 Interesting that it has higher resolution for grayscale than color. I don't know how that works, but I like to see the ebook-reader market continuing to grow, rather than consolidating behind Amazon's nonstandard formats. psymin16:06:52 * psymin nods. [4:33:53 PM] wow [4:33:55 PM] shocking [4:34:08 PM] a person who owns a website muting people who frustrates them [4:34:23 PM] gotta say [4:34:31 PM] i am truly shocked and APPALLED [4:34:34 PM] is techwrongs.com available [4:34:40 PM] that your FREEDOM OF SPEECH is COMPROMISED [4:34:43 PM] oh wait, no it's not [4:34:44 PM] ;) [4:36:43 PM] Librarian: do you even have a library science degree [4:37:09 PM] because if not, pls change your nick to Fauxbraian thanks [4:40:18 PM] fauxbrarian* [4:41:37 PM] * Librarian blinks. [4:41:45 PM] Do you not know what a "nickname" is? [4:42:04 PM] never heard [4:42:30 PM] So it appears. [4:42:46 PM] yeah im sorry Librarian i don't know anything about anything [4:42:52 PM] you are clearly the expert, please educate all of us [4:43:06 PM] But, I think that's the entire point I was trying to make: muting people who frustrate you just means you need to do a better job deciding what should frustrate you. [4:43:22 PM] If presentation of evidence, or requests for evidence, frustrate you, that's called "cognitive dissonance." [4:43:27 PM] or he can mute whoever the fuck he wants [4:43:30 PM] because its his channel [4:43:34 PM] And it means the problem is *yours* and not the person who's causing you cognitive dissonance. [4:43:54 PM] or, he can mute whoever the fuck he wants, as it is his channel [4:43:57 PM] It means: do better at critical thinking and adjusting your epistemology, rather than silencing people. [4:44:03 PM] it means: drink bleach [4:44:11 PM] Yes, of course, and he has done so. And that's the whole problem. [4:44:18 PM] He doesn't have the intellectual maturity to do anything better than that. [4:44:26 PM] Wait, are you telling me to drink bleach? [4:44:47 PM] i believe that is what i just said [4:45:08 PM] Well, I wasn't sure if you were making an allusion to the popularly-repeated but blatantly false accusation Biden made about Trump. [4:45:33 PM] But if you're just advising me to do something that constitutes suicide, then I must say "thank you for showing your level of intellectual capability." [4:45:36 PM] no, it won't cure COVID-19, but it will cure the rest of us having to listen to your pseudo-intellectual drivel [4:45:56 PM] imagine being so butthurt about being muted on an IRC channel that you pontificate for DAYS over it [4:46:01 PM] If it's pseudo-intellectual, why can't you ever say anything to refute what you disagree with? [4:46:20 PM] Why is telling people to commit suicide your best option, rather than demonstrating that anything I say is false? [4:47:02 PM] you're the one complaining about being muted on an irc channel [4:47:04 PM] look inward [4:47:22 PM] You couldn't answer that question the first time I asked it. Noted. [4:47:36 PM] So, let's try a second time: Why is telling people to commit suicide your best option, rather than demonstrating that anything I say is false? [4:47:48 PM] i refuse to waste my time on pointed questions that try to make you look better than you actually are [4:48:09 PM] If I'm so bad, then why can't you demonstrate anything I say is false? [4:48:41 PM] the thesis of your complaint is that schestowitz +q's people on his (as in he registered and owns) the channel [4:48:56 PM] No. [4:48:57 PM] but, he owns his channel, so he is allowed to +q whoever he wants at any time [4:48:59 PM] yes [4:49:07 PM] → immibis has joined [4:49:15 PM] It's that he does so ***instead of offering the evidence requested of him*** [4:49:23 PM] He does that *instead of* supporting his statements. [4:49:25 PM] its his channel [4:49:26 PM] That's the problem. [4:49:26 PM] he can mute [4:49:29 PM] whoever the fuck he wants [4:49:33 PM] at any time he wants [4:49:42 PM] regardless of whether you are satisfied by it or not [4:49:56 PM] Correct. And he does so ***instead of providing evidence*** of his accusations. [4:50:01 PM] That's the problem. [4:50:06 PM] there is no problem [4:50:08 PM] That's how we can tell he's anti-intellectual [4:50:11 PM] he can do whatever he wants [4:50:18 PM] Sure; false accusations are always a problem. [4:50:23 PM] Being a fucking liar is always a problem. [4:50:30 PM] then make your own website [4:50:31 PM] Telling people to drink bleach when you can't refute them is a problem. [4:50:35 PM] complaining [4:50:39 PM] don't know what to tell you [4:50:40 PM] Or IRC channel? [4:50:53 PM] Why don't you try issuing me a death wish again? [4:50:57 PM] but if schestowitz +q'd you, boo fucking hoo [4:50:58 PM] That seems to be your only option. :D [4:51:14 PM] Do you feel that way about the oppression of transgenders? [4:51:24 PM] That if people +q you for it, boo fucking hoo? [4:51:35 PM] know what, fuck this [4:51:39 PM] They should "drink bleach" if they don't like it? [4:51:41 PM] i'll just request libera close #techrights [4:51:43 PM] Come on; answer the question [4:51:46 PM] nah [4:51:53 PM] Right! Silence people who you cannot answer! [4:51:54 PM] think i'll just answer it by having this channel nuked [4:52:06 PM] Right! Silence people whom you cannot answer! [4:52:08 PM] because im tired of hearing everyone's whining about it [4:52:10 PM] cool [4:52:14 PM] Ariadn can't stop transphobes from making their own websites [4:52:18 PM] That's all you have, because you cannot have an intelligent conversation. [4:52:21 PM] You simply aren't capable. [4:52:23 PM] i dont desire [4:52:27 PM] to have an intelligent conversation [4:52:31 PM] just like schestowitz can't stop you making an anti-transphobe website [4:52:32 PM] You lack the fundamental intelligence to respond with maturity and logic. [4:52:33 PM] i desire for you to shut the fuck up [4:52:40 PM] that is the extent of my desire [4:52:55 PM] Right, because you cannot survive in any environment that complies with the Chicago statement of principles. [4:53:01 PM] You scream at people to drink bleach instead. [4:53:06 PM] That's all you're capable of. [4:53:51 PM] What a hypocrite. "Boo fucking hoo" indeed. [4:54:12 PM] Go make your own IRC channel, to complain about how this one allows people to ask you questions that cause you painful cognitive dissonance. [4:54:52 PM] Librarian: what is your opinion on biological differences between races? [4:55:18 PM] I think they're irrelevant. There are a lot of biological differences WITHIN races just as there are biological differences ACROSS races. [4:55:48 PM] People who fixate on them usually do so out of convenience, because they think like collectivists and are looking for excuses for not recognizing indviduality. [4:55:59 PM] Why do you ask? Are you such a collectivist? [4:57:28 PM] Librarian: i believe dark skin is caused by an accumulation of toxins that also impede brain function. don't you think this theory holds some water? [4:57:51 PM] Hitchens's Razor obtains. [4:58:14 PM] → Fuchs has joined [4:58:19 PM] Now, please answer my question. Why are you asking? Are you collectivism-fixated? [4:58:44 PM] what does that even mean? [4:59:00 PM] yes hello fuchs this channel is dumb [4:59:07 PM] It means I want to know why you bothered to bring up a subject so different from what we were previously discussing. [4:59:09 PM] so I heard [4:59:22 PM] Are you desperate to switch the topic to your collectivism of choice? [4:59:38 PM] it consists of #librarian-rants-about-being-banned-on-freenode-and-we-troll-him-occasionally [4:59:55 PM] ← immibis has left (HexChat) [4:59:55 PM] And by "troll," does that mean you're being insincere? And by "troll," does that mean you're being insincere? Well, that was about as dumb as Ariadne screaming at me to drink bleach, when she couldn't address a simple question I asked. Wishing for people to commit suicide. How intellectually mature. A Ariadne17:01:10 you're the one in here basically complaining that you got +q'd L Librarian17:01:35 ...instead of providing the requested evidence of his false accusation. A Ariadne17:01:49 i'm sorry, i'm not bans@techrights.org L Librarian17:01:50 Can you repeat that back to me, so we can all be sure you understand what the real problem was? Because it seems to me like you're purposefully omitting the part that I said was the real problem. A Ariadne17:02:04 no, because i don't give a shit L Librarian17:02:12 It looks like you give a shit. How many times have you complained? That indicates that you give a shit. A Ariadne17:02:35 i give a shit about this channel being a wretched hive of trolling, largely instigated by you, but not just you L Librarian17:02:51 No; trolling is what immibis did. I'm sincere in my request for evidence of false accusations. A Ariadne17:03:15 then might i suggest writing to the above email L Librarian17:03:16 And in my disagreement that +q is a suitable substitute for providing evidence for false accusations. F Fuchs17:03:24 you ... you lot know you could just ignore each other, right? L Librarian17:03:34 I don't think she knows that. :D A Ariadne17:03:42 i mean, i do F Fuchs17:03:46 or given it seems to be two people shouting at each other, taking it to a query? *scratches head* L Librarian17:03:48 I don't think she has that intellectual capacity... instead, she screams at people to drink bleach. Because telling people to commit suicide is how she deals with cognitive dissonance. A Ariadne17:04:07 i have plenty of intellectual capacity, it is just committed to other things than your complaints F Fuchs17:04:12 that's not exactly following my advice there L Librarian17:04:17 No it isn't. That's all you're doing here. A Ariadne17:04:31 yes, shockingly, i do things outside of 'here' L Librarian17:04:32 Committing the entirety of your intellectual capacity to my complaints. Okay, I'm willing to see evidence that you have greater intellectual capacity than just screaming at people you hate, to drink bleach. Please demonstrate that you understand why my being set +q was bad. I've said it twice in the past few minutes, so prove to me that you were capable to comprehend it. Repeat it back to me now. It's because he did that INSTEAD OF _____ ____. Can you fill in the blank? A Ariadne17:06:09 i understand your opinion but it does not matter, i don't decide who gets banned L Librarian17:06:26 If you can't, feel free to scream your hatred at me and tell me to drink bleach. :D Okay, so that's a "no," you can't repeat it back to me, because you aren't capable of comprehending the true nature of the complaint even after you're told twice. Well, go ahead and scream at me to drink bleach. That's sure showing me, innit. :D A Ariadne17:08:17 the actual root of the problem here is that you believe you are owed a debate you are not if MinceR wants to ban you (and it was him, not roy), that's his business L Librarian17:09:01 That's a straw-man fallacy. I don't think I was owed a debate. I think I was owed not-a-false-accusation, which is a basic human right. A Ariadne17:09:13 really, because you're trying to debate me right now L Librarian17:09:38 Not at all. You've demonstrated that you're clearly not even *capable* of a debate. You can't even read and repeat something simple even when I type it to you twice. You aren't qualified to do anything more intelligent than scream at people to drink bleach, when you dislike what they say. A Ariadne17:11:15 you sure seem to be focusing on that guess you are offended in which case, mission accomplished L Librarian17:12:40 Your mission was to demonstrate that you're incapable of intelligent conversation? I guess that's the catch-22 of having an IQ below 80. At that level, you can't be aware how obvious it is to others, that that's your level. You can't stop yourself from demonstrating it. So, you scream at people to drink bleach instead. A Ariadne17:16:15 IQ is pseudoscientific nonsense made by white supremacists to advance white supremacy just sayin' L Librarian17:16:27 Hitchens's Razor obtains. A Ariadne17:16:41 you sure do have a lot of razors L Librarian17:17:22 (That's an easily-web-searchable term, since you obviously don't know what it means.) A Ariadne17:17:48 i don't care what it means P psymin17:17:51 Ariadne, I disagree with your assertion about IQ, but there is a sliver of merit to the claim that testing is cultural and subjective. A Ariadne17:18:05 i have shit to do other than debate idiots on IRC about their bans L Librarian17:18:22 You have demonstrated that you aren't capable to debate. A Ariadne17:18:31 i'll take my <80 IQ and go make 6 figures dropping mad hax its all good man L Librarian17:19:05 Does that work for people who oppress transgenders too? That they're fine and you support and agree with them as long as they make more than 6 figures? Is that the new metric of acceptability, or just a screech of desperation? A Ariadne17:19:31 what does the fact that i'm transgender have to do with anything L Librarian17:19:38 Oh, you're transgender? I didn't know that. Well, I guess the question is even more pointed then. A Ariadne17:20:11 i don't see how the question is relevant, except as a pathetic cry for attention L Librarian17:20:16 But, treat it as a hypothetical. If you knew that someone oppressed transgender people, would the fact that they make six figures mean they didn't need to answer for their opinions against transgenders? A Ariadne17:20:27 i have relayed your complaint about the ban, but if it were up to me, it would remain good day L Librarian17:20:50 Did you relay my complaint about the fact that the ban was *instead of* providing evidence of a false accusation? A Ariadne17:21:04 i have relayed the entirety of the irc logs L Librarian17:21:06 Or did you drop that, because you still aren't capable of understanding it after being told three times? A Ariadne17:21:33 for somebody trying to get unbanned, you have a strange approach L Librarian17:21:42 Who said I was trying to get unbanned? A Ariadne17:21:55 i mean, i assume that is why you complain so robustly L Librarian17:21:57 I'd just like to know where that "six figure earning" characteristic enters the conversation. 10:20 < Librarian> But, treat it as a hypothetical. If you knew that someone oppressed transgender people, would the fact that they make six figures mean they didn't need to answer for their opinions against transgenders? A Ariadne17:22:41 it enters the conversation in that you disparage my IQ because i have no interest in playing your game, so i just pointed out that i have a six figure salary and need to do real work now toodles P psymin17:23:00 be well L Librarian17:25:59 But of course you have interest. You've been here, screeching "boo fucking hoo" and "drink bleach" for a loooong time. For someone who "has no interest." P psymin17:26:25 Librarian, at some point we need to be able to forgive past actions. L Librarian17:26:28 You even spent the effort to go find someone to try to shut me up by force. A Ariadne17:26:42 oh, i only commented because people asked us to register techrights as a group on libera to shut you up L Librarian17:26:49 psymin, how people treat others is their demonstration of how they want to be treated. A Ariadne17:26:57 which, i do not wish to do roy can do it if he wishes P psymin17:27:09 Librarian, an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind A Ariadne17:27:14 my IQ is too low to fill out the form :( L Librarian17:27:23 psymin: did I tell Ariadne to drink bleach? P psymin17:27:47 I don't recall anyone saying that, but I don't pay attention once such things start. People react, they have emotions, they say awful things, we can forgive them and move on L Librarian17:28:22 Did I tell Ariadne to shut up, or try to silence her so that *other people* could not hear her, rather than just /ignoring her myself? P psymin17:28:38 no clue L Librarian17:28:45 The answers are "no," and "no." I don't believe in eye-for-an-eye either. A Ariadne17:28:54 do you ever shut the hell up L Librarian17:29:18 Do you ever accurately represent the complaints I make? I mean, I would say the "shutting the hell up" responsibility is on those who find nothing more intelligent to say than to scream at people to drink bleach. P psymin17:30:26 Librarian, what do you think about the concept of steelmanning an argument or a position? A Ariadne17:30:35 ^ L Librarian17:30:45 psymin, I think it would be better than screaming at people to "drink bleach" or "shut the hell up." Or better than making false accusations. A Ariadne17:31:08 in other words, being an asshat is okay when its you doing it got it L Librarian17:31:28 psymin, I think it would be better than childishly calling people names like "asshat." A Ariadne17:31:33 anyway, techrights runs its own irc server if you want to talk to Librarian, that's your business if you want to talk to the weird alt-right people who join here and troll thinking its the real channel P psymin17:32:10 I think the folks in all the techrights channels are allied in important ways and worth talking with. A Ariadne17:32:11 again, your business L Librarian17:32:13 psymin, how about you? Do you agree that steelmanning an argument or position is better than screaming at people to "drink bleach," "shut the hell up," or "asshat?" P psymin17:32:25 Librarian, I do. L Librarian17:32:26 Or than making false accusations with no evidence? Cool; a point of agreement arrived at. P psymin17:32:45 Librarian, I do. I also think that it is best when in such a situation, to abstract it by one level. ← Ariadne has left (enjoy your cesspool) L Librarian17:33:17 She should have decided to do that an hour ago. Would have saved her a lot of embarrassment. :) There was the very cult-like behavior: 10:32 < Ariadne> if you want to talk to the weird alt-right people who join here and troll thinking its the real channel She has a term of hatred she likes to use, "weird alt-right," and she's going to apply it whether she has evidence of that or not. P psymin17:34:53 Librarian, if other people had the exact same ideology as you, what type of world would they start to form? L Librarian17:34:57 That's a very clear collectivist-hatred behavior commonly empoyed by groupthink cults. One with a lot of variety. Because people with different ideas would be free to implement them to try it out. I think we would see more colonization of the sea floor in pressure pods, as well as in orbit. Perhaps some communities like "Luna" depicted in Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress." How 'bout you? P psymin17:36:53 I need to read that. L Librarian17:37:03 Need an epub? :) P psymin17:37:17 I think that the game b utopia is my preferred one to strive for, not that we can achieve it :) I think I have all of his work in epub L Librarian17:38:01 What's the "game b utopia?" P psymin17:38:56 https://www.gameb.wiki/index.php?title=Get_Started L Librarian17:39:48 The very first sentence throws up a red flag to me. P psymin17:40:04 I like it because it doesn't say "This is the solution!" It says "These types of things could be used for a solution." and "These are the things we value." L Librarian17:40:09 "unsustainable win-lose model" does not describe real-world economics. P psymin17:40:32 In some ways, it does, in my opinion. But I'm not here to argue that. This is the way I like thinking about it. In the past, nations would rise, grow, and fall. Today, nations are very large. The problems we can potentially encounter could be extinction-level events. rather than merely the fall of rome How can we have a society that avoids extinction level events, without totalitarianism? L Librarian17:42:44 That page reads like they're trying to shoehorn Sowell's "constrained vision" into "unconstrained vision" terminology. "Let things evolve naturally and peacefully; don't try to force it with authority and violence." Am I capturing the gist correctly? P psymin17:43:20 I'm not saying that the page is game b. The page is a page Here is another way to frame it. L Librarian17:44:16 Starting with misstatements about the "western civilization status quo" is not a good sign, even if I agree with their "constrained vision" ideas. P psymin17:44:31 I think that "communism" has always lead to totalitarianism. It seems like a noble goal on the surface, but human nature (IMO) causes it to become something quite awful in practice. If people who wanted to move away from what we have, towards something potentially better, I'd prefer them strive for game b rather than communism. L Librarian17:45:09 And psychopathy. Which you might say is part of human nature, but it isn't the majority... but communism attracts psychopaths to positions of power. P psymin17:45:30 narrow the frame to comparing game b utopia to the communist utopia we know that one has always become totalitarian L Librarian17:46:37 Look at their list of "Game B Core Design Elements." It's almost exactly just the plain ol' American Declaration of Independence. It's like they're trying to phrase enlightenment ideals upon which western civilization was founded, as words that communists and socialists can understand, while badmouthing its origins. :D P psymin17:47:23 Librarian, can you get past that for a moment? L Librarian17:47:35 Yes. I'm not saying I disagree with their principles. P psymin17:47:39 * psymin nods. L Librarian17:47:57 But, acknowledging where they came from, and why, is important. P psymin17:48:09 I think that Game B is something that many of us who are dissatisfied with how things are, can potentially agree is a better direction to strive than communism. While keeping some of the good parts of communism. The parts that many communists like. L Librarian17:48:33 Yes. Heck, I even support communists and their ability to make voluntary, non-violence-based communes. P psymin17:48:40 absoultey! L Librarian17:48:46 Just, go do it over there. [points somewhere fucking else]:D J/K; I would potentially join one if they matched my values. P psymin17:49:51 I believe that in a game b society, we can be free of totalitarianism while still having something that many people like, even if they have a preferred utopia that is mutually exclusive with game b. L Librarian17:50:17 Right; that's the founding idea of the United States. P psymin17:51:01 I like that game b is mostly an idea, one that most folks agree is impossible to reach, but it gets a diverse group of people thinking about how to work together to have a better society. L Librarian17:52:07 But it's soooooo easy though. Frustratingly easy. "Leave others alone." The networks and federation arise by people *agreeing* *volutarily* to work together toward their shared goals. So really all that's necessary is those three words: "Leave others alone." Some dude wrote a book I haven't read yet, but the title is, "Don't Hurt People and Don't Take Their Stuff." So, I gotta read that one... seems to be a pretty concise path toward achieving those goals. P psymin17:56:47 Librarian, in your utopia can other dystopias exist? L Librarian17:57:25 That game-B page applies the term "sense-making" to what the Enlightenment philosophers called "epistemology" and concluded was best done through science. So again, there's another example of trying to bad-mouth where they came from without giving it credit for their ideas. P psymin17:58:04 Librarian, hold up. I understand your desire to express such things, but limit the scope. Intentionally try to limit the scope to what is being said. L Librarian17:58:54 Limit what scope? P psymin17:59:53 pretend that it doesn't matter what the ideas are called, or who came up with them L Librarian18:00:37 Oh, thought I said I don't disagree already. The principles as they stand alone are fine. They are not unethical. P psymin18:01:21 cool L Librarian18:01:38 But, you really do need to state what you're in opposition to. It isn't "western civilization" nor the "enlightenment" nor scientific epistemology. If it's totalitarianism you're trying to oppose, say it. Autocracy. Violence. Imposition of will. Silencing voices. Say those things: "this is what we oppose." P psymin18:02:48 distractions omniwin solutions by nature aren't win-lose imposition of will is win-lose L Librarian18:03:53 Right. That's the underlying principle of capitalism: that the subjective theory of value means different people value different resources differently, so each can trade for what they value more. So both participants in a trade come out ahead: win-win. P psymin18:04:24 I have to eat and work, I'll be afkish for as long as I can endure it :) L Librarian18:04:25 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjective_theory_of_value → inky has joined L Librarian19:50:08 Oh look; Ariadne copied and pasted what *she* thought were "good burnz" to the other network, and didn't bother pasting the part where I said it wasn't the +q I was complaining about. It was the fact that Schestowitz did that *instead of* providing evidence of his false accusation. Guess that shows exactly how terrified she is. There's that "socially constructed" "narrative" again. I gotta wonder though... if people thought "socially constructing" "narratives" actually worked... why don't they "socially construct" a "narrative" to cure COVID-19? Do they hate people in Fiji or something? Even immibis was proud of his troll, but he didn't paste my response... 'cause it makes him look like... the intellectual level he's on.  L Librarian21:59:31 09:57 < immibis> Librarian: i believe dark skin is caused by an accumulation of toxins that also impede brain function. don't you think this theory holds some water? L Librarian22:01:18 Fuchs, I believe you were asked to join this channel to see if something could be done about speech that contradicts the policy of the server on which this is hosted. Can you tell me if immibis's statement is in compliance with the policy of this server? L Librarian22:03:38 Huh, no kidding: https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/john-mcafee-found-dead-spanish-court-extradition-us I immibis22:43:31 Librarian: you would have to be stupid to believe that I *actually* believe that and wasn't just trolling you i don't even think that's how the actual racists think it works P psymin22:46:16 it would be pretty neat if trolling wasn't a thing I immibis22:49:59 there's the actual techrights channel on another server for that purpose. This is just the one to rant about how they banned you L Librarian23:02:10 Nah; that's the ones where the self-professed trolls hang out. They're not sincere or honest there. They just make shit up at random, and attempt to make it real by "socially constructing" their "narratives." And, if anyone tries to ask for evidence of their claims, they scream at you to "drink bleach" or ban you or whatever. It's not for intelligent discussion. Just ask schestowitz what license QT is distributed under. I bet he makes it up, as a pure fiction, just like Ariadne invents, as a pure fiction, the political affiliations of anyone who contradicts her. P psymin23:11:28 Librarian, sounds like qt is licensed in many ways, non-free and gpl / lgpl3 L Librarian23:21:34 Shhh, don't tell schestowitz that He might silence you for contradicting the troll channel's "socially constructed" "narrative" And maybe Ariadne will scream death wishes at you P psymin23:22:30 at some point I hope it is possible to stop reflecting on the past poor behavior L Librarian23:22:36 Or make accusations of white supremacy I know one way to make their reputations better. P psymin23:22:53 no need L Librarian23:23:03 If one of them were to come in here and say, "oh yeah, sorry, probably shouldn't have done that" But... I think we both know that will never happen. So, immibis's childishly name-calling "retard" of anyone who disagrees with him will stick with him. Ariadne's death-wish-screeching will stick with her. That r-guy who floods the channel with ascii art of spam cans when he can't refute some evidence that's presented will stick with him. everything you say here will stick with you ← psymin has left (Quit: Leaving) Thu Jun 24 2021 S superkuh00:38:38 https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/860607/ef7cdf174ccbe54d/ "Pulling GitHub into the Linux kernel process" - the argument. → aggi has joined ← aggi has left (#techrights) L Librarian01:16:56 schestowitz: it was Ariadne who screamed at me to drink bleach, when she couldn't find anything that was actually true to accuse me of. Now, you keep using the word "troll," but note that immibis is the one who said he was trolling. That's your channel that's full of trolling; not this one. L Librarian01:18:25 Ariadne also admitted to being a troll as well: 10:11 < Ariadne> guess you are offended 10:11 < Ariadne> in which case, mission accomplished So, Ariadne and immibis are admitted trolls; I've been quite sincer. s/sincer/sincere/ But, you go ahead and keep "socially constructing" the "narrative" that I'm the troll. Also, you go ahead and keep "socially constructing" the "narrative" that A. Ariadne asked you to -v me while you set the channel +m, and that B. you don't remember doing it.  L Librarian01:21:01 I'll keep publicizing all of the above, so everyone who shows up here can see exactly how seriously to take you and your accusations. How does that old line go again? Oh yeah, I remember: "All you have to do to destroy my reputation is lie. All I have to do to destroy your reputation is tell the truth." Ahh, there it is... on the same day, we see schestowitz say two different things: 10:29 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] and I doubt we banned this person, we rarely ban anybody 10:29 < tr-bridge> [Ariadne/tr] he was muted 10:29 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] only two people were muted here 10:29 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] one because you asked 10:30 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] another for trying for a long time to derail the site and using IRC to do so [I was the one whom Ariadne asked to have muted, on a fake accusation.] 16:33 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] I can't recall banning anyone 16:34 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] I think some trolls wrongly accuse us of censorship That's the level of discourse schestowitz is capable of: blatantly proving himself a liar, and then "LOL UR A TROLL" as his excuse. are you sure you weren't the second one? M mjg5908:31:31 I'm the second one (Obviously I disagree with the characterisation) → job has joined G gerikson09:15:07 I've filtered Daemon/BaronHark so I don't know if 60% of that channel is him complaing about mjg59 still the other 35% is him talking about his car ← job has left (Remote host closed the connection) → koo6 has joined ← koo6 has left (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) → koo6 has joined I inky10:48:49 what is tr-bridge? does it connect irc with telegram? so the freenode channel moved to telegram? G Guest7311:06:01 Hi. It's Roy. I see you're in a channel that's not ours. We actually moved to #techrights at irc.techrights.org (the IRC client needs to be configured to connect to it) which is the correct channel to use)z G Guest7311:08:44 This channel is just an anti-Techrights cesspool, hijacked by enemies of Techrights. This channel is just an anti-Techrights cesspool, hijacked by enemies of Techrights. → job has joined G gerikson12:13:06 inky: tr-bridge is the bridget irc.Techrights -> Freenode fn-bridge is the other way *bridge ← inky has left (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) → koo7 has joined ← koo6 has left (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) → rodolphoeck has joined L Librarian14:17:26 Guest73: no it isn't. Guest73: You keep screaming about "trolls," while you have immibis and Ariadne themselves admitting that they are just trying to create drama and offense. W wrycode14:18:11 Guest73: you're an idiot. I'm staying here L Librarian14:18:16 This channel is to discuss tech rights in a way that is *compliant* with the Chicago statement of principles. Your channel is for people to go crying to mommie whenever someone disagrees with what they see. Guest73: it was Ariadne who screamed at me to drink bleach, when she couldn't find anything that was actually true to accuse me of. Guest73: 10:11 < Ariadne> guess you are offended Guest73: 10:11 < Ariadne> in which case, mission accomplished Guest73: *That* is trolling. That's the definition of trolling. And it was Ariadne who screamed at me to "drink bleach" when she cannot refute evidence that I've offered, of her saying things that are factually untrue. L Librarian14:22:44 09:54 < immibis> Librarian: what is your opinion on biological differences between races? 09:57 < immibis> Librarian: i believe dark skin is caused by an accumulation of toxins that also impede brain function. don't you think this theory holds some water? 09:57 < Librarian> Hitchens's Razor obtains. Guest73: immibis shares your opinion that anyone who doesn't agree with him must be silenced, by force if necessary. Guest73: immibis is the kind of person you're defending, by silencing those who speak up against him. Guest73: immibis is the picture of Roy Schestowitz's "techrights" community. Him and Ariadne, who screams at people to commit suicide by drinking bleach when she runs out of intelligent refutation. L Librarian14:27:19 Now, for those who want to discuss tech rights *without* being subjected to the whims of a capricious and anti-intellectual "socially-constructed" "narrative" from Roy Schestowitz/Guest73 and his racist, rage-shrieking friends who spend all their time screeching "UR A TROLL LOL": Here's an example of the economic concept of "rent-seeking behavior." https://www.vice.com/en/article/4avnzg/peloton-treadmill-safety-update-requires-dollar40-a-month-sub... L Librarian14:29:31 And here's an example of the risk of giving other people ("the cloud") control of the tech in your home: https://www.businessinsider.com/texas-energy-companies-remotely-raised-smart-thermostats-temperature... L Librarian14:34:07 [job/tr] Ariadne: Uh, why does Librarian in that libera #techrights channel look butthurt and is making allegations against you Because schestowitz/Guest73 is spamming our channel for intelligent/free discussion of tech rights with falsehoods and "LOL UR A TROLL" anti-intellectualism, duh. :D If you can't scroll up and read what he wrote, it makes you look kind of anti-intellectual yourself, for bothering to comment on it. J job14:39:51 lol, why should I trust what you say over a developer who has been helping the development of IRC for years? "anti-intellectualism" lol is this what stupidpol do to your mind L Librarian14:40:24 Because it's in the log. Ariadne told me to "drink bleach" when she couldn't think of anything to criticize that I hadn't already refuted. Would you like me to copy/paste it to you again? J job14:40:42 you realize anyone can make up logs, right? L Librarian14:40:45 Then you can ask her if she really said it. You realize you can just ask her if she said it or not, right? 09:44 < Ariadne> it means: drink bleach 09:44 < Librarian> Wait, are you telling me to drink bleach? 09:44 < Ariadne> i believe that is what i just said L Librarian14:43:00 See, I even asked her to be sure she was directing it to me as an imperative statement. L Librarian14:44:33 So, are you interested in discussing tech rights in an intelligent and free way, or would you like to simply dismiss anything that doesn't comply with your cult brainwashing as "UR A TROLL LOL" like Roy Schestowitz/Guest73 does? J job14:45:41 oh, I'm interested in discussing it, don't worry. I don't think trolls like you are all bad. particularly, I'm concerned with schools pushing proprietary services to their students google classroom and suite comes to mind L Librarian14:46:17 I got a mixed message there. You stooped to Schestowitz / Guest73 's anti-intellectual "UR A TROLL LOL" anti-intellectualism there at the end. So, that contradicts the first part of your comment. So, let's see if you can steer away from his childishness for a while, and maybe we can talk about open courseware instead. J job14:46:56 sure L Librarian14:47:08 Like, perhaps all curricula designed and produced by public-school teachers should be released as open courseware. Since it's taxpayer funded and all. J job14:47:55 I don't disagree with that. It should be freely redistributed and modifiable by anyone. Commercial use should be allowed, even. commercial use, as in, when a student charge a fee for redistributing it L Librarian14:48:16 I agree. What's your favorite open courseware repository? I have links to a few different projects, but consolidation might be good, perhaps in a WikiMedia-style organization. Or maybe in WikiMedia's framework, themselves. J job14:49:07 I don't think I can answer that, since I haven't used an open courseware repo at all. I tried to convince my school to move away from Google and use a free alternative instead. Didn't work. L Librarian14:49:11 (See, thinks improve a lot when you stop with the anti-intellectual "UR A TROLL LOL" childishness. Please remember that always, for the future.) J job14:49:26 Seems they've made up their mind before I even suggested it L Librarian14:49:34 Yeah, it was that way with software too. Then, quietly, one day, the 500th one of the top-500 supercomputers stopped running any proprietary operating systems, and it was 100% free software. J job14:49:59 (You don't need to be condescending, no thanks.) L Librarian14:50:08 There was a tipping point, and a lot of people didn't even notice it. We can do the same with education, too. J job14:50:44 Right now I'm more concerned about the fact that schools seem to care more about grades rather than true learning. L Librarian14:50:48 (EXACTLY. That's what you're doing when you dismiss people as "trolls." You don't need to be condescending. I expect you've learned that lesson well now; never repeat that mistake of your past.) Have you ever read "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman" by Richard Feynman? J job14:51:22 No L Librarian14:51:30 His impression of physics education in Brazil addresses that directly. J job14:51:56 I see L Librarian14:52:15 It's a short anecdote in a long book, so maybe it's something we could excerpt online and point teachers to it. J job14:53:41 I feel that the root of this problem is that not all knowledge is free Knowledge is not accessible to all L Librarian14:54:29 Are you already participating in the SciHub mirroring "civil disobedience" movement to make a lot of scientific research accessible without paywalls? J job14:55:22 Heh, I was thinking about SciHub too. I haven't mirrored one of them yet, but I am mirroring other very useful stuff, some from the Internet Archive. (or rather, one of the seeds) L Librarian14:55:54 Cool, cool, glad to hear it. That's being part of the solution. I have a meeting to run off to, but thanks for rising above the norm for Schestowitz's channel. I appreciate that. And, would like to exchange links for open courseware projects later. J job14:56:39 I appreciate the discussion too. :) L Librarian14:56:51 !beerbot buy job 1 beer Hmm, no beerbot. Oh well. Later. :) J job14:57:09 see ya → psymin has joined ← rodolphoeck has left (Quit: gone) → rodolphoeck has joined W wrycode15:25:26 you're all idiots I'm an idiot P psymin15:29:05 guilty as charged L Librarian15:52:28 Guest73: I love how you wrote these two lines back-to-back without noticing the irony: 08:28 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] I just parked there with the webchat thing in order to redirect people who are wrongly there if they think it's a legit channel 08:32 < techrights-bot> The "cancellation" of people https://www.deseret.com/2021/6/20/22516382/my-road-to-cancellation see $ulture/ Guest73: as if it's your call to make, who is "wrongly there" or whether it's a "legit" channel. Guest73: you might as well go back to calling us, "UR A TROLL LOL" over and over again. If you can't survive in a channel where no one can ban/silence/mute people you disagree with, then you aren't really a person who should have control over a channel. Just give it up. You are not a king. You are a "social control media" censor. Guest73: and the only excuse you have ever given for your social-control-media censorship is, "UR A TROLL LOL" And the best Ariadne has ever done is: 09:44 < Ariadne> it means: drink bleach 09:44 < Librarian> Wait, are you telling me to drink bleach? 09:44 < Ariadne> i believe that is what i just said J job16:00:31 wb Librarian J job16:01:58 https://www.bulatlat.com/2021/06/23/state-forces-apparently-behind-the-cyber-attacks-against-ph-alte... J job16:03:23 What do you think of Qurium, which hosts Bulatlat? Seems to be a lot better than Cloudflare, but it's still centralizing Guest73 has joined ← rbraun has left (*.net *.split) ← wrycode has left (*.net *.split) ← danielinux has left (*.net *.split) → danielinux_ has joined → wrycode has joined → leah has joined L Librarian17:20:46 Hi leah! Don't mind schestowitz; he's just a little bitter that he can't ban people. He also... uh... "bends the truth" a little from time to time, shall we sa. s/sa/say/ For example, claiming that "a person who hates Ariadne's guts" is hiding the fact that Ariadne was the one spewing death-wishes in here and eventually ran away. So, you know how schestowitz / Guest73 from time to time makes up falsehoods, like that QT is proprietary software? He does the same thing about this channel. He calls us "trolls" over and over again, and then admits that he sees it as 09:44 < tr-bridge> [schestowitz/tr] for our lols So, a little hypocrisy there. L leah17:23:09 oh i forgot i was here i came here earlier when i was told that this place is run by someone who dislikes roy and ariadne, who run techrights together is that person you? well, their choice of language was "dominate" i was told that someone "dominates" this irc channel on libera L Librarian17:23:50 But, if you're interested in discussing tech rights issues, like https://www.vice.com/en/article/4avnzg/peloton-treadmill-safety-update-requires-dollar40-a-month-sub... , you're more than welcome. L leah17:24:00 well look your fight with them is your fight they've done *me* no wrong and they seem ok to me please don't drag me into it L Librarian17:24:33 "Dominate" is just schestowitz's word for, "I'm sad that I can't ban or +q him" L leah17:25:07 ok, but you're squatting his moral property imo techrights should be controlled by him, on libera irc, since he owned it on freenode and libera is the spiritual successor to freenode → rbraun has joined L leah17:25:39 though L Librarian17:25:43 Heh, psymin and I were just discussing the value of faith-based words L leah17:25:47 they told me they don't want this place, so whatever L Librarian17:26:03 Well, I have no question that Ariadne will use politics to silence people she hates. 09:44 < Ariadne> it means: drink bleach 09:44 < Librarian> Wait, are you telling me to drink bleach? 09:44 < Ariadne> i believe that is what i just said So I expect it will come at some point. But, just be aware of whom it is, exactly, who is so full of hatred and anger. L leah17:26:33 i'm so not interested bye! ← leah has left (WeeChat 2.8) L Librarian17:36:58 schestowitz / Guest73: is "peanut gallery" your new term for "troll?" Is that what you say now every time you aren't able to engage intelligently with someone who disagrees with you? Maybe if you say it over and over again, it will magically make me wrong about everything we disagree about. :D L Librarian17:39:06 schestowitz / Guest73: well, I'm sure you and Ariadne will be happy to use ever *political* tool at your disposal to shut me up. That always happens when people cannot defend their opinions with evidence. schestowitz / Guest73: you're welcome to mature a bit, and give up simple-minded name-calling like "troll" and "peanut gallery" at any time, if you want to work together for our common goals of individual rights in tech. If you're capable, that is. We know Ariadne isn't, with her hate-filled death-wish screeching. L Librarian17:43:59 There you go, psymin: this is an example of the religious cult-like behavior I've referenced in the past: 10:42 < techrights-bot> ● NEWS ● #CommonDreams ☞ 'Disturbing': US Military Document Puts Socialists in Same Category as Neo-Nazis https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/06/23/disturbing-us-military-document-puts-socialists-same-ca... That's just a chant of ingroup/outgroup dynamics to rile up the ingroup, with no bearing on anything factual or tech-rights-related. ← psymin has left (Leaving) L Librarian17:48:31 Is name-calling people "trolls" and "peanut gallery" when you disagree with them good for *your* health? I wouldn't want to make you feel self-conscious about it, if it's going to cause you a heart attack to *not* call people trolls, when you are unable to address what they say rationally and maturely. L Librarian17:53:28 Well, which of us constantly dismisses the other with childishly calling him a "troll" or "peaut gallery" instead of just admitting when he got something wrong and fixing it? That seems to be where the "issue" lies. Oh good; you've just corrected your past falsehood. What did you say about it before? You didn't say it was available under a "dual" license before. You said something that wasn't true before. Do you remember what it was? L Librarian17:57:15 schestowitz / Guest76: are you going to call Ariadne a "troll" and "peanut gallery" now for correcting something you got wrong too? L Librarian18:01:32 11:00 < Old_Man> Since schestowitz only passes on the part that fits his "socially constructed" "narrative," I must speak here for a second to say what schestowitz won't tell you: I do give credit where it's due. Schestowitz, THANK YOU for correcting something that you've gotten wrong so many times in the past... a falsehood you've spread, just to construct a narrative. I give you credit for that. 11:00 < Old_Man> Now, back to your regularly-scheduled dismissal of everyone who values truthfulness as a "troll" or "peanut gallery." L Librarian18:08:15 By the way I think QT's dual-license scheme is better than gitlab's. Gitlab's is so convoluted and difficult to implement freely that it drove the entire creation of codeberg.org and the development of gitea. QT is nowhere nearly so difficult. And has far more community involvement than gitlab does. So, I trust the community around QT to keep it alive if the company changes their mind, than I would trust gitlab. gitlab is using google cloud and it is google investment. At least it's possible to host own gitlab. But main gitlab is not really a good github alternative S Snuupy20:10:48 I've heard of people preferring gitea + https://github.com/woodpecker-ci/woodpecker cbrtrnx[m]: ^ C cbrtrnx[m]20:18:40 I've been wondering who or what kind of institution is behind codeberg. Lately I often see sourcehut as well L Librarian20:21:36 Is sourcehut the one I've heard of that isn't open source, can't be self-hosted? C cbrtrnx[m]20:25:33 What? Sourcehut is open source, can be self hosted L Librarian20:25:45 Okay, probably not the one I was thinking of then.