09.05.08

^{Gemini version available ♊︎}

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 4th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 7:11 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

schestowitz	Nice one.	Sep 04 00:09
*schestowitz slow to reply because of multitasking		Sep 04 00:10
tessier__	cj: Microsoft and Novell are trying to kill FOSS and maintain their monopoly. That’s wrong.	Sep 04 00:13
tessier__	They were already convicted of having such a monopoly by Judge Jackson.	Sep 04 00:13
schestowitz	Judge Jackson called them “Criminals”.	Sep 04 00:14
tessier__	All of the leaked documents about how they want to kill FOSS are pretty damning too	Sep 04 00:15
tessier__	I take it personally because if they kill FOSS they kill my career. Linux paid for my house.	Sep 04 00:15
schestowitz	http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween11.html “I also expect a serious effort, backed by several billion dollars in bribe money (oops, excuse me, campaign contributions), to get open-source software outlawed on some kind of theory that it aids terrorists.”	Sep 04 00:16
schestowitz	” We can only defeat that by making sure that national governments become so attached to open-source code that their military men and bureaucrats will short-stop the bribed legislators, rather than let their vital infrastructure be outlawed.”	Sep 04 00:16
cj	tessier__: I do not believe that MS or Novell are trying to kill F/OSS	Sep 04 00:17
tessier__	cj: MS says it is. It’s a cancer, remember?	Sep 04 00:18
cj	nor could they were they to want to	Sep 04 00:18
tessier__	cj: Probably not. But they have certainly killed lots of other companies.	Sep 04 00:18
cj	tessier__: perhaps someone employed by MS said that, I’ll give you that. The folks I’ve worked with don’t seem to feel that way.	Sep 04 00:18
tessier__	cj: The folks you work with don’t run MS.	Sep 04 00:18
tessier__	They spent a lot of money on a “Linux is a cancer” campaign which came from the top.	Sep 04 00:19
cj	tessier__: if you mean they intend to bring redhat or canonical to bankruptcy, perhaps I’d buy that. but linux is not a company.	Sep 04 00:19
tessier__	cj: They didn’t say RedHat or Canonical. They said Linux was a cancer.	Sep 04 00:19
schestowitz	LOL “they don’t say it to me” … “Microsoft really loves open source”..”they are nice people”…….LOL Classic.	Sep 04 00:20
cj	tessier__: so you’re confused?	Sep 04 00:20
tessier__	I’m not confused at all.	Sep 04 00:20
schestowitz	tessier: that’s not correct. The people at the ‘bottom’ say that too.	Sep 04 00:20
cj	“they have certainly killed lots of other companies” sounds non-sequiter for someone who is not confused…	Sep 04 00:20
schestowitz	They just can’t say it in public. Let me find something.	Sep 04 00:20
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/03/27…	Sep 04 00:22
cj	schestowitz: if you continue to lower yourself to ad homonym, you’ll hurt your credibility further.	Sep 04 00:22
schestowitz	“Open source is stealing. What open source does is copying proprietary software and giving it away for free. Open source is not about innovation or innovating, it’s about copying. It infringes on everybody’s patents. Not just Microsoft’s. But we’re just the most vocal about it. We just can not see this happening and not do anything to protect our business […] What open source and communism have in common, is that there	Sep 04 00:22
schestowitz	are both failed systems”.	Sep 04 00:22
schestowitz	cj: ad hominem? Where?	Sep 04 00:23
cj	LOL? “they are nice people”?	Sep 04 00:24
cj	schestowitz: laughing and misquoting	Sep 04 00:24
cj	I’m sorry to hear that some folks feel that way. However, those that I’ve spoken with don’t hold that opinion.	Sep 04 00:28
cj	and yes, tessier__, some of my friends do run parts of microsoft.	Sep 04 00:29
cj	this conversation strikes me as xenophobic…	Sep 04 00:29
schestowitz	Good for them. They take order from people who break the law.	Sep 04 00:29
schestowitz	*orders	Sep 04 00:30
schestowitz	cj: sadly for them, they fail to understand who they serve and what the impact on society is. It’s call Kool-Aid.	Sep 04 00:30
cj	schestowitz: you seem unfit to make that judgment… you do not know them or their intent…	Sep 04 00:31
cj	schestowitz: and I’m still waiting for your recommendations on how to adjust the status quo so that it meets the needs of society in a better way.	Sep 04 00:32
schestowitz	I saw what they write. Patronisation is dangerous. A company whose employees express desire to ’tilt “X” into the death spiral’ and use ISVs as “pawns” and “one night stands”.	Sep 04 00:32
cj	schestowitz: and no, “tear it down and start all over” doesn’t count, in my book.	Sep 04 00:32
schestowitz	On whose behalf are you asking?	Sep 04 00:32
cj	free software developers	Sep 04 00:33
cj	well, on my own as a free software developer	Sep 04 00:33
cj	it would be presunmptive of me to ask on the behalf of others, without having their consent	Sep 04 00:40
schestowitz	Who job do you do for Microsoft?	Sep 04 00:47
cj	schestowitz: did you send folks to spam #mono?	Sep 04 00:48
cj	who job?	Sep 04 00:49
schestowitz	???	Sep 04 00:49
cj	I do not understand “Who job do you do”	Sep 04 00:50
schestowitz	Spam Mono? Send? What am I? Some don who ‘sends’ peple…?	Sep 04 00:50
cj	schestowitz: shrug someone there suggested the spammers were your “lackeys”	Sep 04 00:51
cj	I don’t know why he would have said that, but I thought I would ask you rather than accuse you. perhaps I can defend your reputation?	Sep 04 00:51
cj	if you were asking what I do at MS, I said above. allow me to scroll back…	Sep 04 00:52
cj	testing a feature in the next release of forefront; implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here: http://research.microsoft.com/rese…	Sep 04 00:53
schestowitz	Why doesn’t the Almighty Microsoft make security a feature of the O/S? If it came make a browser a feature you cannot even remove from the O/S, why not security?	Sep 04 00:55
cj	schestowitz: they did. it’s in vista. GAPA is an additional feature.	Sep 04 00:56
cj	when you buy an individual system, you don’t really need a enterprise-wide managed firewall.	Sep 04 00:56
cj	but it does come with a personal firewall.	Sep 04 00:56
cj	s/ a / an /	Sep 04 00:57
schestowitz	it’s a nice business model that Microsoft has got going. They should make the O/S more crashy (they already did that with LH/Vista) and then sell better stability as a product.	Sep 04 00:57
schestowitz	Vista is not secure. It’s a Big Lie.	Sep 04 00:57
schestowitz	It was proven by scientists.	Sep 04 00:58
cj	shrug I’m not claiming that vista is a good OS. I’m just answering your question.	Sep 04 00:58
cj	so, do you have any recommendations for improving the social responsibility of Novell and MS? What would you consider a worthwhile move on the part of either of the companies?	Sep 04 01:00
cj	or are you just using the boycottnovell campaign as a platform to enlarge your ego?	Sep 04 01:01
schestowitz	The SEC is advised to pay a long visit to both companies and inform the investors it was made to protect about the truth; that’ll be a good start.	Sep 04 01:02
cj	what would be a positive end to this campaign? The Montgomery Bus Boycot was not held to destroy the bus system, it was held to improve the situation and gather attention to a problem which had a solution.	Sep 04 01:03
cj	to me, it seems like you are complaining for the sake of complaining with a side effect of you getting attention…	Sep 04 01:04
cj	schestowitz: I mean what could the companies do themselves? Is your recommendation really that the companies continue as they are until the authorities make them do something else?	Sep 04 01:05
cj	you have yet to confirm or deny that spammers were sent to #mono at your behest…	Sep 04 01:07
tessier	First we need to get rid of software patents.	Sep 04 01:08
tessier	Then MS can’t claim (but never prove) that Linux violates hundreds of their patenst	Sep 04 01:08
tessier	patents	Sep 04 01:08
tessier	To say Linux violates hundreds of patents but never say which ones so they can be fixed is a pretty sleezy move.	Sep 04 01:08
cj	perhaps reform would be a more feasible bet. I’m not a fan of software patents either, but they’re already part of society.	Sep 04 01:09
cj	classifying software as a form of mathematics would bring the tower crumbling down… but that may be more catostrophe than can be handled…	Sep 04 01:09
schestowitz	I never ‘sent’ anyone anywhere and I didn’t know a Mono channel exists. I knew about go-oo	Sep 04 01:10
cj	irc.gimp.net, #mono	Sep 04 01:10
schestowitz	No, thank you, sir.	Sep 04 01:14
cj	schestowitz: it seems the spammers are from the same domain as mib_e1zoms / mib_jm8dfl	Sep 04 01:15
schestowitz	Look, I won’t be spending time with some accusations that are baseless and stupid and false. Mib is mibbit.	Sep 04 01:16
cj	I’m not accusing. I’m just noting that it seems to me that the regulars of this channel react to a rational conversation with network abuse.	Sep 04 01:17
cj	mib_e1zoms: was that you?	Sep 04 01:18
cj	mib_jm8dfl: ^^	Sep 04 01:18
schestowitz	I don’t use mibbit	Sep 04 01:18
cj	schestowitz: … I didn’t claim that you did?	Sep 04 01:19
schestowitz	I find it amusing if not flattering that any form of inconvenience to Mono is now blamed on me, by default.	Sep 04 01:19
cj		Sep 04 01:20
cj	schestowitz: have you read this?	Sep 04 01:21
cj	http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/articl…	Sep 04 01:21
cj	Q: Certainly you’re aware that some observers are skeptical about the concept of Microsoft having an open source strategy. How do you respond to this?	Sep 04 01:26
cj	Our open source strategy, now and in the future, is to continue a journey in which we participate with others in learning how open source products and technologies, Microsoft products and technologiesand sometimes open source products and technologies from Microsoftcan coexist, combine, and comingle in ways that offer value to customers, developers and IT administrators, partners businesses, and, as a commercial company, our shareholders.	Sep 04 01:26
cj	But our strategy remains unchanged. Microsoft competes with Linux and Unix servers with Windows servers; we’re going to find ways to interoperate between Linux and Windows because lots of our customers run both; and we want to grow the open-source ecosystem as it relates to Microsoft software.	Sep 04 01:26
cj	should the Apache Software Foundation be boycotted as well? If not, what is the distinction?	Sep 04 01:35
*schestowitz catching up		Sep 04 01:37
schestowitz	ct: you come here as a person who works for Microsoft (indirectly) and you sing about the wonders of Microsoft. Do you even know what Ramji is doing? Search BN as this was covered before. The same with Apache. It’s all there.	Sep 04 01:38
cj	sorry, I missed the part where I was singing about the wonders…	Sep 04 01:39
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tessier	Software patents are completely unworkable. Reform is not an option.	Sep 04 03:57
tessier	Software is math and you can’t patent math.	Sep 04 03:57
tessier	It’s not a matter of classification, it’s a matter of fact.	Sep 04 03:58
tessier	You can’t count to infinity without reproducing the entire source code of Windows Vista. Count yourself lucky nobody is pushing the issue of copyright in general.	Sep 04 03:58
wasabi	You can have a bunch of monkeys work forever, and eventualy they’ll write a book.	Sep 04 04:10
wasabi	But that book is still copyrighted.	Sep 04 04:10
wasabi	I fail to see the conclusion properly following hte premises.	Sep 04 04:10
wasabi	patent law, and most law, isn’t about weird theoritical abstracts.	Sep 04 04:11
wasabi	it’s about real world things, in our country, and others, in this day and time.	Sep 04 04:11
tessier	But I’m not talking about monkeys typing randomly. I’m talking about math	Sep 04 04:36
tessier	And math cannot be patented.	Sep 04 04:38
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tessier	doh	Sep 04 04:39
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schestowitz	Microsoft says use Mono… http://www.techworld.com.au/article/2…	Sep 04 08:27
schestowitz	“Prior to joining Microsoft about a year ago, Hansleman…”	Sep 04 08:27
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zoobab	http://www.digitalmajority.org/forum/t-8…	Sep 04 09:16
schestowitz	Who is AT&T? Probably some angry teenagers (“teenage riot”).	Sep 04 09:17
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ZiggyFish	hey	Sep 04 12:11
ZiggyFish	http://blip.tv/file/1230921 (chriss starting to see the light)	Sep 04 12:11
schestowitz	..or the FUD?	Sep 04 13:03
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schestowitz	Pj got around to it: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s…	Sep 04 13:42
schestowitz	http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary… ( A license to buy and drink alcohol at age 18? ) quoteworthy: “At 18, you’re good to go and die in Iraq or Afghanistan. At 21, when you’re legally allowed to drink alcohol, you might already be the mother or father of several kids!”	Sep 04 14:00
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schestowitz	Red Hat just snapped KVM: http://www.heise-online.co.uk/open/Red…	Sep 04 15:10
anivar	schestowitz: I hope you got my mail	Sep 04 15:11
anivar	India is in the steps to create a National policy for openstandards for e-gov	Sep 04 15:12
anivar	as a followup of rejecting india’s Appeal against OOXML	Sep 04 15:12
schestowitz	It’s a draft, right? I had a cursory look at it this morning.	Sep 04 15:14
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schestowitz	FUD ALERT [Fwd: Open Source Software: Your Company's Legal Risks] < http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/64378.html > “he decision of the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Jacobsen is significant and there is no question that it creates additional risks for companies using open source software. It is also likely that the open source community will be more aggressive…”	Sep 04 15:24
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schestowitz	More IP-BS: http://transcripts.businessday.co.za/cgi-bin/tr…	Sep 04 15:37
schestowitz	Geez! So much patent FUD agaist FOSS today. This one too: http://www.contractoruk.com/003949.html (“Open source software is a unique risk”). Where’s it all coming from and why?	Sep 04 15:42
schestowitz	Marrying monopolies on knowledge with Free software (also new): http://ostatic.com/172393-blog/book-review-intel…	Sep 04 15:48
schestowitz	More legal FUD (WTF?): http://www.contentmanagement365.com/Common/Regist… (Is open source software putting businesses at risk?)	Sep 04 15:52
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wasabi	It’s coming from you people as far as I can tell.	Sep 04 16:01
schestowitz	Thanks, wasabi, your trolling is appreciated.	Sep 04 16:02
wasabi	Hmm. I’m not sure that was trolling.	Sep 04 16:02
wasabi	I mean, it could be taken as such. :0	Sep 04 16:02
wasabi	But I meant it in all honesty.	Sep 04 16:02
schestowitz	Are you working for Microsoft too?	Sep 04 16:02
wasabi	Heh. Yes. I am a MS spy.	Sep 04 16:02
wasabi	I have BillG’s face tattooed on my ass.	Sep 04 16:03
vida18	World Day against software patents	Sep 04 16:03
schestowitz	vida18: yes, any news about that?	Sep 04 16:03
vida18	http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/	Sep 04 16:03
vida18	http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/petition	Sep 04 16:04
vida18	http://linuxfr.org/2008/09/02/24445.html (in French)	Sep 04 16:04
schestowitz	I’m going to write about it in a couple of hours	Sep 04 16:04
vida18	Mandriva loses a lot of money	Sep 04 16:13
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trmanco	yay	Sep 04 17:57
trmanco	finally I learned how to use the usenet	Sep 04 17:58
trmanco	with no web access*	Sep 04 17:58
schestowitz	.Which NGs?	Sep 04 17:58
trmanco	com.os.linux.*	Sep 04 17:59
trmanco	comp*	Sep 04 17:59
schestowitz	I wonder if the Novell ones are still alive	Sep 04 17:59
schestowitz	I saw Novell throwing some PR there a while ago, but I think they are mosly dead.	Sep 04 17:59
trmanco	I subscribed to won from novell but it looks dead	Sep 04 18:39
trmanco	one*	Sep 04 18:39
trmanco	I unsubscribed after a minute or two	Sep 04 18:39
schestowitz	They can merge it with comp.os.windows.* and alt.forsale	Sep 04 18:41
trmanco	lol	Sep 04 18:42
trmanco	thats looks like Chinese to me	Sep 04 18:42
trmanco	still don’t know what all the extensions mean	Sep 04 18:43
trmanco	well, comp, alt those a know	Sep 04 18:43
trmanco	but they’re so many	Sep 04 18:43
trmanco	still have to create a certificate that is compatible with thunderbird	Sep 04 18:46
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zoobab	http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/forum/t-86361/…	Sep 04 20:05
zoobab	http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/forum/t-86…	Sep 04 20:05
schestowitz	What da….. “your use of that photograph without prior authorization from at&t is a violation of copyright and also infringes on several proprietary trademarks.”	Sep 04 20:07
schestowitz	LMAO	Sep 04 20:07
schestowitz	F* it. I’m making a copy of this photo to spread it further.	Sep 04 20:07
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seller_liar	schestowitz: hey roy thanks for publishing some info about globo	Sep 04 20:11
seller_liar	schestowitz: did you know which globo are in collapse since that time?	Sep 04 20:12
seller_liar	schestowitz: but globo have a lot of power ,and then the governement did a 5 bi contract for paying during 30 or 40 years	Sep 04 20:13
seller_liar	schestowitz: globo Will NEVER pay the governement	Sep 04 20:13
schestowitz	Sounds like a corrupt infusion. It happens in the UK too… and got leaked to Wikileaks.	Sep 04 20:14
seller_liar	trmanco: hey trmanco voce esta ai?	Sep 04 20:15
trmanco	sim	Sep 04 20:15
seller_liar	trmanco: voce conhece a globo? eu tenho um artigo sobre a relação globo ms em portugues e talvez se puder ,seria legal traduzi-lo	Sep 04 20:15
trmanco	globo?	Sep 04 20:16
seller_liar	trmanco: sim ,roberto marinho	Sep 04 20:16
trmanco	nao estou a ver o que é	Sep 04 20:17
seller_liar	trmanco: vou passar o link do artigo tudo bem?	Sep 04 20:17
trmanco	sim	Sep 04 20:17
seller_liar	trmanco: wait a moment	Sep 04 20:17
seller_liar	trmanco: http://www.midiaindependente.org/pt/…	Sep 04 20:18
trmanco	http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505…	Sep 04 20:19
trmanco	seller_liar, vou ver	Sep 04 20:19
seller_liar	trmanco: thank you	Sep 04 20:19
trmanco	“Mas foi na Net que os Marinho tiveram de começar a ceder posição. Eles tinham 70% do controle, que diminuiu muito a partir do Protocolo de Recapitalização no início do ano, quando o BNDES, o Bradesco e a RBS ampliaram suas ações para quase 40%. O sócio estrangeiro – a Microsoft – recusou aportar capital e perdeu espaço.”	Sep 04 20:22
seller_liar	trmanco: sim ,é uma pequena citação,mas deve ter mais a contar	Sep 04 20:23
trmanco	pois	Sep 04 20:23
seller_liar	trmanco: mas não consegui encontrar mais nada,	Sep 04 20:24
seller_liar	schestowitz: hey roy ,”beyond citizen kane” is a movie made by a English guy about globo	Sep 04 20:25
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/results?searc…	Sep 04 20:28
trmanco	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/04…	Sep 04 20:28
schestowitz	Globo-lisation	Sep 04 20:28
seller_liar	schestowitz: but you can find the original “beyond citizen kane” in author voice (english)	Sep 04 20:29
schestowitz	trmanco: exaggeration. Look at the author (pal of Ramji).	Sep 04 20:29
trmanco	oh didn’t know	Sep 04 20:30
trmanco	nice pointer there, I don’t really see any problems with there wiki but whatever	Sep 04 20:30
trmanco	http://www.itworld.com/security/54707/mi…	Sep 04 20:32
trmanco	http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?sto…	Sep 04 20:35
seller_liar	schestowitz: There are any movie about m$ “bad habits”	Sep 04 20:37
seller_liar	schestowitz: except pirates	Sep 04 20:37
schestowitz	seller_liar: what do you mean? Care to elaborate?	Sep 04 20:40
seller_liar	schestowitz: Example, beyond citizen kane about globo, “xxxx” about m$	Sep 04 20:41
schestowitz	Heh. http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode…	Sep 04 20:41
schestowitz	I might need to do that too one day.	Sep 04 20:42
schestowitz	seller_liar: yes, many.	Sep 04 20:42
seller_liar	schestowitz: please tell me one ,except pirate of sillicon valley	Sep 04 20:42
schestowitz	Here is one example (2 videos): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/…	Sep 04 20:42
seller_liar	schestowitz: but it’s not a complete movie	Sep 04 20:43
seller_liar	schestowitz: a complete movie can be good if someone makes one	Sep 04 20:43
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schestowitz	There’s one about antitrust, but only a portion is about Microsoft.	Sep 04 20:50
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2007/…	Sep 04 20:50
seller_liar	schestowitz: what movie	Sep 04 20:51
seller_liar	schestowitz: ok	Sep 04 20:51
seller_liar	seller_liar: thanks	Sep 04 20:51
schestowitz	The background material is relevant nonetheless, as context being the danger of monopolies that collude (like MS/Novell).	Sep 04 20:52
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seller_liar	schestowitz: chanserv died?	Sep 04 20:54
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schestowitz	I kicked him in the nuts.	Sep 04 20:56
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schestowitz	boycott novell	Sep 04 21:02
schestowitz	Revolt? http://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=237	Sep 04 21:03
schestowitz	So the guy (CJ) just came here to cause trouble. http://edropple.com/2008/09/04/boycott-nove…	Sep 04 21:03
schestowitz	Coming from someone who works for Microsoft, this isn’t something to be concerned about.	Sep 04 21:04
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