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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 19th, 2008

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schestowitzBush been sued: http://www.theregister.co.uk/200...Sep 19 07:38
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schestowitzNow it's Nvidia taking a tumble: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008... http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008...Sep 19 08:21
schestowitzAnd Creative also: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008...Sep 19 08:22
Tallkennormal for creative, do their sound cards work with Vista as they did with XP yet?Sep 19 08:31
Tallkendue to licensing issuesSep 19 08:31
Tallkenthey couldn't enable all the functionality in their driver in VistaSep 19 08:32
TallkenlameSep 19 08:32
schestowitzSame in Linux.Sep 19 08:32
schestowitzThey are still a no-go area for GNU/Linux because they don't do much to deserve business.Sep 19 08:32
schestowitzhttp://too.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/defaultSep 19 08:33
schestowitzOops. (that, BTW, is Brin's new blog). I meant to paste this one: http://forums.creative.com/creativelabs/board/message?b...Sep 19 08:34
Tallkenmassive discussion @ #ubuntu-offtopic about a home user wants from his/her OSSep 19 08:37
Tallkenouch 226 pages on that Creative threadSep 19 08:55
schestowitzYes, half a million pageviews.Sep 19 08:56
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schestowitzThere is this new Red Hat article which makes it seem like Linus initiated the GNU/Linux operating system, which he didn't. There needs to be something to distinguish here. Linux€® is not an operating system. It's a platform, a kernel. Why can't Red Hat and Novell ever get it right? They bypass GNU and FSF.Sep 19 09:49
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TallkenURL?Sep 19 10:40
schestowitzI've lost it.Sep 19 10:42
TallkenLOLSep 19 10:42
TallkenI suppose that's why FSF wants everyone to treat the system as GNU/LinuxSep 19 10:43
schestowitzThe problem is that they sort of rewrite history and new 'Linux' users believe that it was created in 1991. They therefore miss the philosophy entirely and are willing to turn their O/S into another OS X.Sep 19 10:46
TallkenROFLSep 19 10:50
TallkenyaSep 19 10:50
Tallkenbut most of them get fed upSep 19 10:50
Tallkenand buy a MacSep 19 10:50
Tallkenthe problem isSep 19 10:50
schestowitzOf course, because they fail to see what GNU/Linux *is*Sep 19 10:50
schestowitzIf they don't understand and value their freedom, then short-term comfort is all they'll judge by.Sep 19 10:51
Tallkenand let me check if it indeed was "our" "arch-enemy" Miguel de Icaza who said thisSep 19 10:51
Tallken-- Googling --Sep 19 10:51
schestowitzde Icazq turns GNU/Linux into poor man's Windows and makes developers feel that way too. Which is wrong.Sep 19 10:52
TallkenYay I'm the master of Google :DSep 19 10:59
Tallkenactually it was in Miguel's blogSep 19 10:59
TallkenlolSep 19 10:59
Tallkenanyway, in this rather old postSep 19 11:00
Tallkenhe bashes GNU/Linux developers who migrated to OSXSep 19 11:00
Tallkenhttp://tirania.org/blog/archiv...Sep 19 11:00
Tallken(apropos GTK3)Sep 19 11:00
seller_liarTallken: indirect mozilla firefox attackSep 19 11:01
Tallkenhum?Sep 19 11:01
schestowitzWhere?Sep 19 11:01
seller_liarTallken: remember , icaza talks about mozilla developersSep 19 11:02
Tallken"rhult, hallski and kris" ?Sep 19 11:03
seller_liarTallken: mozilla develpers use macSep 19 11:03
Tallkenthey're free to do soSep 19 11:03
Tallkenas long as Firefox works well and with no EULAs lolSep 19 11:04
seller_liarTallken: I know ,but icaza attacks mozilla devsSep 19 11:04
Tallkenhum ok, didn't know thatSep 19 11:05
seller_liarhttp://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/Sep 19 11:06
seller_liarwhat f*cking hell is this?Sep 19 11:06
TallkenLOLSep 19 11:06
schestowitzThey reverse it.Sep 19 11:06
schestowitzIt should be Novell/Microsoft/LinuxSep 19 11:06
seller_liarschestowitz: how to convince people about ms-novell bad tatics?Sep 19 11:07
seller_liarschestowitz: m$-novell inderectly attacks red hat tooSep 19 11:08
Tallkenyou can'tSep 19 11:09
Tallkenjust spread the siteSep 19 11:09
seller_liarTallken: why?Sep 19 11:09
Tallkenif they don't hear onceSep 19 11:09
Tallkenprobably you should let them go on with their lifeSep 19 11:09
Tallkenbecause I know an old Slackware userSep 19 11:10
seller_liarTallken: politics is not optionalSep 19 11:10
Tallkenwho is using openSuSESep 19 11:10
Tallkenand for him openSuSE being sponsored by Novell means nothingSep 19 11:10
seller_liarTallken: people always have this behaviorSep 19 11:11
TallkenI gave up on himSep 19 11:11
Tallkenhe was a fscking Slackware userSep 19 11:11
Tallkenusing Linux way before I didSep 19 11:11
Tallkenwell versed on Linux story and appsSep 19 11:11
TallkenI meanSep 19 11:12
seller_liarTallken: And , why using OpensuseSep 19 11:12
seller_liarTallken: He did not know about gnu?Sep 19 11:12
Tallkenhe does know all thatSep 19 11:12
seller_liarTallken: gnu is politics and ethical decisionsSep 19 11:12
schestowitzseller_liar: they attack the top contributor.Sep 19 11:12
TallkenI understand new people using openSuSESep 19 11:13
schestowitzFrom the news: http://www.sdtimes.com/RED_HAT_TOPS_LIST_OF_CO... (Red Hat tops list of corporate Linux code contributors  )Sep 19 11:13
Tallkenor even Microsoft if they ever launch oneSep 19 11:13
Tallkenjust not "old" Slackware users who should know betterSep 19 11:13
seller_liarTallken: Yes but citing the competitor is a very dirty attackSep 19 11:13
schestowitzThey try to hit GNU/Linux by harming its developers and blood supply. As for Novell, it's still a proprietary s/w company that promotes .NET, ActiveX and other such junk.Sep 19 11:13
Tallkenthe problem is they now have the money to keep things flowingSep 19 11:14
TallkenI suppose a) most developers don't care ; b) been brainwashed ; c) believe they can get the best of it and ignore the badSep 19 11:14
TallkenI believe in c) honestlySep 19 11:15
schestowitzTallken: OpenSUSE makes SLED/SLED, i.e. Microsoft-taxed Linux. It weakens contributors to GNU/Linux and empowers Microsoft <put technology name here>Sep 19 11:15
seller_liarschestowitz: Yes  roy , I know , I remember about netwareSep 19 11:15
seller_liarTalken: Every act in society ,whenever good or bad, have dual consequencesSep 19 11:16
seller_liarTallken: Your user someday will pay for the actSep 19 11:16
schestowitzWell, they share ba roof.Sep 19 11:16
seller_liarschestowitz: What?Sep 19 11:17
schestowitzOSDL is said to have collapsed because Stuart Cohen nodded to what Novell did.Sep 19 11:17
TallkenBTW, found this now by accidentSep 19 11:17
Tallkenhttp://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2008/0...Sep 19 11:17
schestowitzWhen Red Hat and Novell share a roof at Linus Foundation, that means that Microsoft agenda is up there to conflict with Red Hat'sSep 19 11:17
seller_liarschestowitz: Yes, remember, some time ago I have discussed thisSep 19 11:17
seller_liarschestowitz: And can have more....Sep 19 11:18
schestowitzShould Red Hat swallow the Mono and Moonlight poison pill? Well, Novell helps in dividing because it's irrational for Red Hat to hook up with a company that compared it to cancer.Sep 19 11:18
TallkenLOL only understood now what you were sayingSep 19 11:19
Tallken Greg Kroah-Hartman is from Novell?Sep 19 11:19
seller_liarTallken: YesSep 19 11:19
schestowitzUntil a joint roof like Linux Foundation (I made a typo earlier) rids itself from Microsoft/Novell influence, there will be trouble.Sep 19 11:19
schestowitzTallken: yes, he is.Sep 19 11:19
seller_liarDo not believe in Linux FoundationSep 19 11:19
schestowitzSee this one: http://dustinkirkland.wordpress.com/2008/09/1... (with pictures)Sep 19 11:20
seller_liarLinus, Alan, TedSep 19 11:20
schestowitzAlan is with Red hat.Sep 19 11:20
schestowitzHe denounced the Novell deal and advocated GPLv3 several times.Sep 19 11:20
seller_liarschestowitz: but all them have fear about SolSep 19 11:20
schestowitzLinus is torn apart because the sellouts from Novell he must be nice to (Greg, Novell's funding, etc.)Sep 19 11:20
seller_liarschestowitz: and all believe in Linux and not in Gnu LinuxSep 19 11:21
schestowitzseller_liar: I care about Free software. Linux has excellent hardware support, so it's safe to bet on it as the kernel right now.Sep 19 11:21
schestowitzSolaris/OpenSolaris is still GPL-allergic, by design.Sep 19 11:22
TallkenI don't think Linus will abstain from acting if neededSep 19 11:22
schestowitzTallken: he sort of denounced what I doSep 19 11:22
Tallkenthe question Linus isn't a FSF follower; they have overlapping interestsSep 19 11:22
Tallkenschestowitz: denounced how?Sep 19 11:22
schestowitzTallken: he uses Fedora at least.... no Novell for him.Sep 19 11:22
Tallkenbut for the time, I doubt he'll take actionsSep 19 11:22
schestowitzTallken: he said that anti-Novell sentiments were not productive. Wasn't specific about his targets though...Sep 19 11:23
Tallkenunless Novell does some major screw up that points blatantly their objectivesSep 19 11:23
TallkenWell, they aren'tSep 19 11:23
schestowitzTallken: Novell has already done that.Sep 19 11:23
Tallkenin his point of viewSep 19 11:23
Tallkenas I saidSep 19 11:23
schestowitz"Intellectual property peace of mind" from their PR Director.Sep 19 11:23
Tallken""the question Linus isn't a FSF follower; they have overlapping interests""Sep 19 11:23
schestowitzThey try to shut up the developers ahead of the latest announcement. I inquired with journalists and wrote about it.Sep 19 11:23
schestowitzNovell/Microsoft are like spooks that try to manufacture and control public perception.Sep 19 11:24
Tallkenmay be dismissed as some dirty marketing, as expected (unfortunately) from companies... They're leveraging their partnership. Doesn't mean they'll stop promoting LinuxSep 19 11:24
seller_liarTallken: only "Linux" , no Gnu LinuxSep 19 11:25
Tallkenschestowitz: I understand what you're saying and I agreeSep 19 11:25
schestowitzAt whose expense? Java? Red Hat? GNU? Fight against software patents?Sep 19 11:25
schestowitzNovell acts selfishly for its survival.Sep 19 11:25
Tallkenmy point is just, for Linus, there hasn't been a clear reason for him to interveneSep 19 11:25
seller_liarTallken: Yes,Sep 19 11:25
schestowitzSee my posts from last night. I believe Novell is on the verge of bankruptcy and it relies on Microsoft for some lifeline./Sep 19 11:25
TallkenI may be wrong here, but he didn't even sign that document dismissing binary only modules, did he?Sep 19 11:26
schestowitzNovell already seemed to be on the cliff when Messman was ousted and Novell came to Microsoft, their decades-long fierce competitor (and defendant in a major court case)Sep 19 11:26
schestowitzTallken: you're correcy.Sep 19 11:27
Tallkenso, Linus is an ally of open source, but not software libreSep 19 11:28
seller_liarTallken: Linus live the old system with a new methodology (free-open source)Sep 19 11:28
Tallkenseller_liar: diz essa frase em português que eu não percebi nada :DSep 19 11:29
seller_liarTallken: vc está brincando comigo néSep 19 11:29
Tallken(I said him to rephrase the sentence cmg)Sep 19 11:29
schestowitzFor all I can tell, GPL was an afterthought for Linus -- a way of attracting more devs.Sep 19 11:29
Tallken(I said him to rephrase the sentence)Sep 19 11:29
TallkenlolSep 19 11:29
Tallkenrephrase thenSep 19 11:29
seller_liarTalken:Linus vive o mesmo sistema mercantil ,só mudou a metodologia (open source)Sep 19 11:29
TallkenahSep 19 11:30
Tallken"Linus lives the old system with a new methodology (free-open source)"Sep 19 11:30
seller_liarTallken: Ou seja , dinheiro e técnica sobre politicaSep 19 11:30
Tallkennot really, it was a carefully crafted license which allowed open-source to be kept open-sourceSep 19 11:31
Tallkenoriginally, he only allowed distribution in source formSep 19 11:31
Tallkenbinary distribution was forbiddenSep 19 11:31
TallkenFor schestowitz, translation: "Meaning, money and technical knowledge over politics/philosophy"Sep 19 11:31
schestowitzWell, there wasn't as much as 650MB of Free software.Sep 19 11:31
schestowitzHow much does OOo, for example, take up now?Sep 19 11:32
seller_liarTallken: ok , thanksSep 19 11:32
Tallkenseller_liar: Ya, undertood now :)Sep 19 11:32
Tallkenwayyyyyyyyyyyyy to much xDSep 19 11:32
Tallkenlet me see if I have the debsSep 19 11:32
TallkennopSep 19 11:32
schestowitz20 GB on the Debian repos (or more)Sep 19 11:32
schestowitzOOo 3.0 is out later this month.Sep 19 11:33
schestowitzI think around 150 MB in size (binary, no extensions)Sep 19 11:33
Tallkenhum? that much?Sep 19 11:33
Tallkenbut in source?Sep 19 11:33
schestowitzWith clipart?Sep 19 11:34
TallkenahSep 19 11:34
schestowitzHa! I was right: http://download.openoffice.org/680/   150 MB for GNU/LinuxSep 19 11:34
schestowitzThe deb is 147 MBSep 19 11:35
Tallkenfinished reading http://mdzlog.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/greg...Sep 19 11:36
TallkenLOL @ "When this sort of thing happens on mailing lists, it’s called trolling."Sep 19 11:37
Tallken(at the very end)Sep 19 11:37
schestowitzHe's not a troll, he a lizard (SUSE).Sep 19 11:37
TallkenlulzSep 19 11:38
TallkenanywaySep 19 11:38
Tallkengoing offlineSep 19 11:38
Tallken[[]]Sep 19 11:38
Tallkencya laterSep 19 11:38
schestowitzWill doSep 19 11:40
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schestowitzSomeone has alerted me that this page is missing: http://www.apdip.net/projects/gif . It's in Google cache: http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:...Sep 19 12:22
schestowitz"This is Google's cache of http://www.apdip.net/projects/gif. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 8 Sep 2008 06:03:49 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime." [Works OKAY.] Maybe downtime? "The service is not available. Please try again later." http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.apdip.... It's an important ODF page.Sep 19 12:22
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schestowitzGot this: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/19/why-no... From the source: "So you might think about a way to include the content on your website as an entry or referral any time such an argument comes up again. Just point to this page and maybe these arguments from AlexH and Co., what makes DotNET different than lets say Python become tiresome and pointless."Sep 19 13:01
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twitterThe Nvidia news is sad, but it goes to show that cooperating with M$ is not really a winning strategy.Sep 19 13:52
twitterBruce Perens wrote some stuff about them doing bad things to free software acceleration.Sep 19 13:52
schestowitzGot URL?Sep 19 13:52
schestowitzI knew they screw with KDE4 (not deliberately)Sep 19 13:53
twitterI'll dig it up.  I tried a google search the other day and got nowhere.Sep 19 13:53
twitterHere's a start, the story of 3dFx http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?s...Sep 19 13:58
schestowitzOh, I see now. Very Microsoft-like.Sep 19 14:03
twitterIt seems connected to OpenGL too.Sep 19 14:05
twitterYes, very M$ like.Sep 19 14:05
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wagananybody here?Sep 19 14:06
schestowitztwitter: Recent Nvidia stories:Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzNvidia sued for violations of federal securities law : http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzAnalyst says AMD gaining ground vs. Intel, Nvidia : http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/analyst-says...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzNvidia chipsets are history : http://www.theinquirer.net/feeds/rss/generic/en...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzHow Closed Does Nvid[i]a want to Be? : http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2008/07/ho...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzNvidia "opens can of whoop-ass" on itself : http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/0...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzKernel space: drivers that don't make the kernel scene : http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/06...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzHow NVidia impedes Free Desktop adoption : http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=819Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzLinux Foundation points finger at Nvidia : http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9975720-7.html?par...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzPosition Statement on Linux Kernel Modules : https://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/Ker...Sep 19 14:07
schestowitzNVidia says no to request to release open source drivers, once again : http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2588Sep 19 14:07
waganwhat the hell happens here?Sep 19 14:07
waganwhat the hell happens here?Sep 19 14:07
waganwhat the hell happens here?Sep 19 14:07
schestowitz:-)Sep 19 14:07
waganspamSep 19 14:07
schestowitzWe were just having a discussion about NVidia.Sep 19 14:07
waganok sorrySep 19 14:08
schestowitzTrying to find some particfular old article.Sep 19 14:08
wagangood eveningSep 19 14:08
schestowitztwitter found http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=...Sep 19 14:08
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schestowitzAnd it's relevant because massive layoffs are about to hit.Sep 19 14:09
twitterHere's a reversal of the usual story about Nvidia and 3D graphics.  Back in 2000, they were caught using GPL'd code in their non free drivers.  http://slashdot.org/features/00/05/01/0047219.shtmlSep 19 14:13
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twitterStealing free software and using it to harm free software, that's the non free software business model.Sep 19 14:13
schestowitzWell, that's Novell.Sep 19 14:14
trmancohttp://groups.google.com/group/gnu.misc.discuss/...Sep 19 14:15
schestowitzhttp://www.channelregister.co.... "Nvidia is to rid itself of 6.5 per cent of its worldwide workforce, the graphics chip maker has admitted."Sep 19 14:16
twitterCan you find a non free software program that does not have roots in free software?  Browsers came from mosaic.  Math programs came from Maxsyma.Sep 19 14:16
schestowitzFree software exists in many applications. I reused a few things in my Free software too (very little though)Sep 19 14:19
schestowitzPPM importer for exampleSep 19 14:19
schestowitzIf you ever want to intimidate McAfee (who attack FOSS), then mention GPL violations (corruption too): http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&nu...Sep 19 14:21
schestowitzMicrosoft still uses celebs to embarrass itself: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/International_Business/De...Sep 19 14:31
schestowitzSweatie B is going mad again. http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/techtrac...Sep 19 14:34
schestowitz"At Microsoft's company meeting today, CEO Steve Ballmer was in full cheerleader mode, running around the stage, high-fiving Microsoft employees at Safeco Field, breathing hard and yelling into the microphone, said one observer, who asked to remain anonymous while describing an event that was closed to the public."Sep 19 14:34
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twitterHa ha.  I like how the article explodes the logic of Ballmer's iPhone hate.Sep 19 14:59
twitterBallmer does not want to build a phone because he thinks no single phone will ever have more than 25% of the market.  An OS, he says, can dominate more than that.Sep 19 15:00
schestowitzThat's flawed logicSep 19 15:00
twitterIn more than one way.  The author goes on to say M$ has 12% of the mobile market ...Sep 19 15:00
schestowitzMind you, at this very moment I'm plowing through many articles about Microsoft's shutting down its Halo developerSep 19 15:00
schestowitzXBox has cost Microsoft _so much_ and I can't help wondering how much money the company is losing.Sep 19 15:01
twitterWhat it really boils down to is that M$ is a one trick pony.  Zune, xbox and others are massive failures.Sep 19 15:01
twitterProbably because they all share such a poor base, which should be the number 1 failure, Windows.Sep 19 15:02
schestowitzI posted this one some hours ago. You might want to take a glimpse: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.li...Sep 19 15:02
schestowitzI notice that Google Groups went through an overhaul. No more bump-based display and sorting of threads, which is good.Sep 19 15:03
schestowitzWindows is not so profitable either, but it's close to Office. Office too is copied illegally (with Microsoft's silent consent), so it doesn't generate as much revenue as people imagine.Sep 19 15:03
schestowitzMore Microsoft propaganda (spotted 10 seconds ago): http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/09/18/bu... ( Microsoft: 83 pct of Montenegro software pirated ) Coming from the company that says so-called "piracy" heps it.Sep 19 15:05
schestowitzhttp://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/n... "Microsoft explained that an issue with the Exchange Web Service component is leading the update to send some servers into a continuous crash cycle."Sep 19 15:09
schestowitzSearch business is still falling for Microsoft as well < http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/comscore-rele... >. Not good, not good.Sep 19 15:09
schestowitzAnother one (Microsoft is on a roll at the moment): http://news.cnet.com/8301-13577_3-10041856-36.html ("A would-be social network called Wallop has shut its doors, according to a message on the home page.")Sep 19 15:11
schestowitzhttp://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/17598/Peter-... ( Peter Moore: MS Considered Buying Nintendo )Sep 19 15:14
twitterThe blackouts, we saw that earlier.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/210145Sep 19 15:24
twitterIt's nice to see the backlash.Sep 19 15:24
schestowitzPeople like to describe XP as though it's suddenly a comfy cushion, not a malware magnet. is there an xpfailurelog? I'm amused by the idea of comparing Mandriva 2008.1 on this PC to something like XP or Vista.Sep 19 15:25
twitterThere was a good comparison of Mepis and Vista, but it has been taken down I think.Sep 19 15:27
twitterNo, I take that back, the take down was a comparison of Outlook, Thunderbird and Kontact.Sep 19 15:28
twitterWhere did you get the blackout quote?Sep 19 15:28
twitternever mind, got it.Sep 19 15:29
schestowitzSJVN did a good MEPIS-Vista comparison over a year ago. It's in eWeek/Ziff-Davis.Sep 19 15:29
schestowitzI have heaps of Vista failures documented (over a thousand). It's like that some of them you could find handy.Sep 19 15:29
schestowitz*likelySep 19 15:30
twitterYes, it is.Sep 19 15:31
twitterI don't know of an XP failure log.Sep 19 15:31
schestowitzI'm finding lots of stuff today about Microsoft's $300 million advertising.Sep 19 15:32
schestowitzWe 'owe' one to Apple for creating a negative stereotype for Windows and having it stick with hundreds of millions.Sep 19 15:32
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twitterThis is the power of broadcast media, which is ultimately harmful.Sep 19 15:34
schestowitzYes, and Helios was trying racing cars to promote tux. :-) No budget of $300 million or $500 million (according to otyhSep 19 15:34
twitterPeople already knew M$ sucks.  Apple simply validated the viewpoint through advertising.Sep 19 15:34
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schestowitzhttp://www.fairhome.co.uk/2008/09/... "Japan-based games console company Nintendo came last in the rankings, with a score of 0.8, whilst world renowned software-maker Microsoft was placed second last with a score of just 2.2."Sep 19 15:35
twitterNew windows versions are always a low point for M$ because they must break their old version to sell the new.Sep 19 15:36
schestowitzThere are tons of articles about Pete Moore and his interview with the Guardian. He talks about his departure too. Just like the head of the Zune project, he appears to have abandoned this failed project. Zune was headless for about 6  months, IIRC. Let me find the ref.Sep 19 15:37
schestowitzOh, it's the use of the word "gang" by Microsoft which amused me. Here are the details: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocSep 19 15:38
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schestowitztwitter: I notice that CA is boosting Microsoft at the moment (after their corruption scandal and reappointment at the top). Can you figure out or do you know their relationship with Microsoft? I can only google it to find out, but maybe you know some history about the pair.Sep 19 15:41
twitterThe story of XP and Vista is the same as XP and 98 or 98 and 95.  M$ makes each version suck a little harder, so the last version always looks good by comparison.  The restrictions grow but things that matter continue to suck.Sep 19 15:42
schestowitzhttp://www.microsoft.com/isv/ca/Sep 19 15:42
twitterwill try.Sep 19 15:42
schestowitztwitter: I hear that it's revisionist. XP was not resisted nearly as strongly as Vista. Microsoft uses this big lie to make it seem like Vista is inevitable.Sep 19 15:42
schestowitzThis is why I ask: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Devel...  Why would CA sponsor a study like this? What has it got to /gain/?Sep 19 15:43
schestowitzhttp://community.ca.com/blogs/iam/archive/2008/04/0...Sep 19 15:43
twitterthis is not entirely revisionist and it does not make Vista inevitable.  Each new version of Windows has met greater user resistance.  The end of that trend is rejection.Sep 19 15:45
schestowitzThis one on CA and Java is over a decade old: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0... I'll try to see if there's something newer about this pair.Sep 19 15:45
schestowitzAnyway, I'm leaving it aside for now. It's worth exploring later because Microsoft can fund self-serving studies in all sorts of ways.Sep 19 15:47
twitterI don't know anything about CA but this looks like standard Slog to me.  Pretend you have something great and you have already won, reward those who play ball, publish the results as independent and so on.Sep 19 15:48
twitterIsn't java gpl now?Sep 19 15:48
schestowitzYes.Sep 19 15:48
schestowitzThey games some polls before. Let me find it.Sep 19 15:48
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-...Sep 19 15:49
twitterGiven that, you would think people would dump .NET like the ugly shit it is.Sep 19 15:49
schestowitzHere it is about Microsoft gaming a poll against Java: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/26/m...Sep 19 15:50
schestowitzNew: "[Microsoft] guerrilla marketing campaign at VMware's annual worldwide conference in Las Vegas." http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0...Sep 19 15:52
schestowitz"Guerilla marketing campaigns, he said, were "what the follower does, not what the leader does".Sep 19 15:52
schestowitzAnother report said that he recgonised the slog tactics because he worked as a Microsoft execSep 19 15:52
schestowitzPaul Maritz, Vice President, Microsoft (Now VMWare): “…cut off Netscape’s air supply.”Sep 19 15:53
schestowitzPaul Maritz, Vice President, Microsoft (Now VMWare):  “To combat NSCP we have to have [sic] position the browser as ‘going away’ and do deeper integration on Windows. The stronger way to communicate this is to have a ‘new release’ of Windows and make a big deal out of it. We will thus position Memphis as ‘Windows 98′.”Sep 19 15:53
schestowitzPaul Maritz, Vice President, Microsoft (Now VMWare): “The major reason for this is: to combat [Netscape] we have to position the browser as “going away” and do deeper integration on Windows. The stronger way to communicate this is to have a “new release” of Windows and make a big deal out of it. We will thus position Memphis as “Windows 98. IE integration will be the most compelling feature of Memphis."Sep 19 15:54
schestowitzPaul Maritz, Vice President, Microsoft (Now VMWare): “Number two is move Netscape out of the win32 client area.”Sep 19 15:54
twitterCA seems to have a lot in common with M$ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_WangSep 19 16:05
schestowitzNothing about Microsoft in this page. I still read.Sep 19 16:06
schestowitz"Wang is also well known for his philanthropic works with such causes as the Make a Wish Foundation, and Smile Train among others. His donation of over $50 million dollars to the State University of New York at Stony Brook for the construction of the Charles B. Wang Center was the largest in history to a SUNY school."Sep 19 16:06
schestowitzhttp://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/gov...Sep 19 16:07
schestowitzRobber barons. You do the crime, you pay some PR money.Sep 19 16:07
twitterEasy to do when you hand yourself a $670 million bonus.Sep 19 16:07
schestowitz2003: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9... (Computer Associates Announces Layoffs)Sep 19 16:09
schestowitz2001: http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18817439 (Layoffs At Computer Associates)Sep 19 16:09
twitterThe company seems to have been destroyed in the 90s.  It would be sad if they were really reduced to .NET nasty.Sep 19 16:10
schestowitzIt's not just Kumar: http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/aml...Sep 19 16:10
schestowitz"Back in 2001, a Texas billionaire and conservative political activist named Sam Wyly launched a proxy contest at Computer Associates, attacking accounting practices at the Long Island software company. Soon thereafter, the already-embattled CA began its descent to near-death. Its infamous "35-day month" accounting--and the ensuing effort to hide that accounting from government investigators--led to the conviction of the company's Sep 19 16:10
schestowitzCEO, GC, and several other high-level executives."Sep 19 16:10
schestowitztwitter: Novell and Corel are dying (now in buybacks mentality) and they both degraded to .NET after submissive e deals with Microsoft.Sep 19 16:11
schestowitzOh oh!Sep 19 16:11
schestowitzBloomberg: "CA Founder Wang `Personally Directed' Fraud, Ex-Chief Says"Sep 19 16:12
schestowitzhttp://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12052219... "Former CA chairman Sanjay Kumar, from the prison cell where he is serving a 12-year term for his role in a massive accounting fraud scandal, pointed the finger at one-time boss and friend Charles Wang."Sep 19 16:12
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient...Sep 19 16:13
trmancohttp://www.desktoplinux.com/ne...Sep 19 16:26
schestowitzhttp://forum.mandriva.com/viewtopic.php?t=9...Sep 19 16:29
schestowitzThey are so protective of their identitySep 19 16:29
schestowitzhttp://www.happyassassin.net/2008/08/...Sep 19 16:31
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trmancohave you seen the new slackware logo?Sep 19 16:39
trmancoa lot of people don't like itSep 19 16:39
schestowitzI haven't seen it.Sep 19 16:39
trmancohttp://groups.google.com/group/alt.os.linux.slac...Sep 19 16:40
trmancohttp://www.slackware.com/grfx/shared/logo.pngSep 19 16:40
schestowitzThis article really pissed me off, so I could help leaving a comment: http://blogs.itworldcanada.com/insights/2008/...Sep 19 16:41
schestowitzIt's bad.Sep 19 16:41
schestowitz(the logoSep 19 16:41
trmancoyesSep 19 16:41
trmancoI read slackwarsSep 19 16:42
schestowitzHere is Gates' pyramid scheme (it's partly his inde that he invests in): http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10046277-16.html (Intellectual Ventures: A massive patent pyramid scheme?)Sep 19 16:43
trmancoI see you left a comment :)Sep 19 16:44
schestowitzI was angry. :-)Sep 19 16:46
trmancololSep 19 16:46
trmanco:pSep 19 16:46
schestowitzHow does one combat $billions of brainwash. My patents too were fool. They believe everything they read in the press. Recently I found the husband of the former head of the Gates Fundation [sic] planting stories in time magazine to glorify this fundation.Sep 19 16:48
trmanco:|Sep 19 16:48
schestowitzIt's a circular catch. A criminal criminally controls the press, which in turn tells the criminal's story. A lot of the economical depression that's cooking at the moment is caused by the same type of issue. It's all greed and corruption. Bear in mind that Microsoft might still be losing $billions and they attack those who dare to point this out.Sep 19 16:51
schestowitzMac fan defends convenience over freedom: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10046376-16.html surprise, surprise Sep 19 16:53
trmancowhat do you mean?Sep 19 17:00
trmancowho is the Mac fan?Sep 19 17:01
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schestowitzAsay. He hardly gives a s* about Freedom, yet he's a self-appointed "open source" figure.Sep 19 17:02
trmancooh ok, for moments I thought you were referring to Mark ShuttleworthSep 19 17:05
schestowitzSome guy is disputing me in a USENET thread, so I send a pointer to http://www.billparish.com/msbargraph699.gifSep 19 17:09
trmancololSep 19 17:09
schestowitzThey harass Cisco at the moment. Cisco is among the loudest complainers about the patent systemSep 19 17:10
schestowitzThat's about the man that Bill Gates is using (and funding) to rob the industry and game/abuse USPTO: http://techdirt.com/articles/2...Sep 19 17:11
schestowitz"So what is new in this one? Well, less than a year after raising a $1 billion patent hoarding fund, he's out raising a new $2.5 billion fund. So it seems like he's good at getting press and raising money -- but not so much actually making money at this point (well, Myhrvold personally is doing fine, since the piece notes that he gets a 2% management fee, just like a VC)."Sep 19 17:11
schestowitz"And that's where the saber rattling comes in. The article notes that Cisco and Verizon have paid up between $200 and $400 million as licensees -- though, to make it more confusing some of that is invested back into the fund for equity."Sep 19 17:11
schestowitzI don't remember the figure for sure, trmanco. Maybe you can help me out here: http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/09/...Sep 19 17:26
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_Doug????Sep 19 17:31
twitterhave you done a wrap up article Intellectual Ventures and it's M$ backing yet?  Intellectual Vultures is a good name for them.Sep 19 17:31
schestowitzKroes vs Apple: http://www.itwire.com/conte...Sep 19 17:32
schestowitztwitter: I'll do another one tonight. Seen the one from yesterday yet?Sep 19 17:32
schestowitzI've just put this in Digg to raise awareness of people who don't read BN: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_is... (4 Diggs in 18 minutes)Sep 19 17:33
_Dougbillg copies the Apple  'I'm a Mac, and I'm a PC"' ..Sep 19 17:33
_Doughttp://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/b...Sep 19 17:33
schestowitzYes, seen that. There's more: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/International_...Sep 19 17:34
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twitterOK, I saw it.  I did not remember the attack on Cisco.Sep 19 17:37
twitterHere's an old run down on how XP sucks worse than 98 did.  I ran into it cleaning my bookmarks.  The original site is gone but archive.org has it http://web.archive.org/web/200509062...Sep 19 17:38
schestowitz"November 15, 2002: Bruce Schneier recommends this article."Sep 19 17:41
schestowitz""Why so many defects?   The fact that Windows XP makes your computer dependent on Microsoft computers is bad not only because you lose control over your computer, but because Microsoft produces defective software and doesn't patch defects quickly.Sep 19 17:42
schestowitzOpenGL is Free software now: http://www.linux.com/feature/148339Sep 19 17:46
benJImanschestowitz: Can't you credit the author of things you claim not to have written?Sep 19 17:47
schestowitzhttp://www.earthtimes.org/articles/sh...Sep 19 17:47
schestowitzHe wants to be anonymous, benJIman. I asked him for an attribution permission but he declined. Are you here just to troll, benJIman?Sep 19 17:49
twitterThis is nice but I'm not sure I like Byfield's slobbering over it.  Mesa and X.org seemed to work without OpenGL.Sep 19 17:50
benJImanschestowitz: You didn't ask me whether you could credit me in your story. I didn't particularly want to be associated with boycottnovell either.Sep 19 17:50
_Dougback in ten ..Sep 19 17:50
twitterPeople don't need permission to quote each other, Benjie.Sep 19 17:52
twitterIf you don't want to contribute to Boycott Novell, why are you here?Sep 19 17:53
benJImantwitter: The /topic says "Exploring the reality" not "Ignoring the reality"Sep 19 17:53
schestowitztwitter: they usually do  (at that scale) and I was approached to publish this.Sep 19 17:53
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: testSep 19 17:54
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: "Exploring the problems of the Novell/Microsoft patent deal"Sep 19 17:55
schestowitzbenJIman: you're off topic. Please be cautious.Sep 19 17:55
schestowitz;-)Sep 19 17:55
twitterReality is welcome, Benjie.Sep 19 17:55
twitterHere's the FSF news release about OpenGL http://www.fsf.org/news/thank-you-...Sep 19 17:56
schestowitzReality, not spin.Sep 19 17:56
schestowitzWe already have Ian Bruce and Ilk for the latter.Sep 19 17:56
twitterBruce was exaggerating 3d acceleration problems, licensing issues and commercial contributions.  FSF is more to the point.Sep 19 17:58
schestowitzAll the pieces fall into place as FS: Java, OpenGL, OOo...Sep 19 18:00
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schestowitzNo Mono patches in KDE this week: http://commit-digest.org/i...Sep 19 18:03
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twitterhttp://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/212249Sep 19 18:13
schestowitzCool. I'll link to it.Sep 19 18:15
_Dougany news on what caused the LSE meltdown last mon ?Sep 19 18:36
_Doug"London Stock Exchange Chooses Windows over Linux for Reliability"Sep 19 18:37
_Doughttp://windowsitpro.com/Common/adforceim...Sep 19 18:37
schestowitz*LOL* Well, the latest says it's definitely a software issue.Sep 19 18:38
schestowitzThose responsible refused to name the culprit. IOW, no-one is being blamed.Sep 19 18:38
_Doughttp://www.microsoft.com/uk/...Sep 19 18:39
schestowitzRefs here also: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.a...Sep 19 18:39
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_Dougagility 'cost of ownership' availability and performance ..Sep 19 18:41
GraveDiggerhi folks!Sep 19 18:41
schestowitzProsthetics are a wonderful thing and I'm all for sharing knowledge about it, but why do they abuse the "open source" term?  http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/techno...Sep 19 18:41
schestowitzHi, GraveDigger. What's up?Sep 19 18:41
GraveDiggernothing special, just wanted to read a bit in hereSep 19 18:42
pombat42wrt to the London SE outage it's obvious that they are very careful with the words they use. Developed with Microsoft technology for instanceSep 19 18:44
_Doug"20% savings .. cost millions of euros nine months .. going forward with with the new system .. hundreds of thousands .. double the capacity we can do it literally over a weekend"Sep 19 18:44
_Doug"A modern feat of computer software engineering"Sep 19 18:44
schestowitzIt turns out that I was wrong.Sep 19 18:44
schestowitzI thought it was the SECOND downtime in less than a year, but I was wrong. I remembered wrong or missed one.Sep 19 18:45
schestowitzIt was down THREE days in less than a year. That's like, what...? Running a /stock market/ properly just 99% of the days?Sep 19 18:45
schestowitzOur  desktop uptime puts that to shame and here you talk about an LSE framework with huge and expensive /redundancies/ that handle the load poorly (Rex Ballard concurs)Sep 19 18:46
pombat42The redundancy is only effective if the software controlling it does the switching properly.Sep 19 18:47
_Doug"is is true that .. puts Microsoft in the unenviable position of having two bad options to consider: accept that a high-profile IT system failure occured that either relied on Microsoft products or.. let the blame fall on the LSE staff managing the platform"Sep 19 18:47
_DougWhat was someone just saying about not pissing off your own customers ?Sep 19 18:48
pombat42Money will change hands and you know that the LSE staff will take the hit.Sep 19 18:50
_Doug"Avanade .. A joint venture with Accenture and Microsoft "Sep 19 18:53
_Doughttp://www.avanade.com/Sep 19 18:53
_Dougtrain crashes, blane the conductors ...Sep 19 18:54
_Doug: train crashes, blame the conductors ...Sep 19 18:54
_Doug"Founded in 2000 as a joint venture between Accenture and Microsoft"Sep 19 18:55
schestowitzWhy don't they state the cause of the crash?Sep 19 18:55
_DougIs anyone going to be held accountable ?Sep 19 18:55
schestowitzDidn't Furse get fired/quit?Sep 19 18:55
_DougNot some scapegoat .. some agile innovator .. !!!Sep 19 18:56
schestowitzMaybe after 4 or 5 major downtimes they'll realise it's not working, but either way, won't someone complain to the ASA about Microsoft's false advertising? The uptime is a lie and the choice /over/ GNU/Linux is a lie also.Sep 19 18:56
schestowitz"I have been amused by recent coverage of what is called “open source spying.” It turns out to be nothing more than trying to glean hints of what’s real using unclassified stuff on the Internet. Spooks act all excited about using the Google, but this has absolutely nothing to do with open source."Sep 19 18:58
_Dougtechnically speaking, why would moving to dot.Net reduce latencySep 19 18:58
schestowitzNot the first time he complains about the noise that I too am seeing in the "open source" feeds: http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=2906Sep 19 18:58
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_Dougin the same video .. the camera panns over a screen that says "Novell Migration" .. :)Sep 19 19:01
_Dougmms://wm.microsoft.com/ms/windowsserversyst em/facts/videos/LSE_CaseStudy_Rev_750k.wmvSep 19 19:01
schestowitzIs there a HTTP link?Sep 19 19:01
_Doughttp://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspxSep 19 19:02
_DougThe video link .. get it while you can ...Sep 19 19:02
_Dougat 2:45Sep 19 19:02
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schestowitzI can't view it.Sep 19 19:04
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_Dougwhy not ? you are licensed to ?Sep 19 19:04
schestowitzYou see, I could do alright with the format because I have kaffeine, but Microsoft can't even make the bloody thing downloadable. Everything to make the user "uncomfortable" (as they said about DR-DOS)Sep 19 19:05
schestowitzCan you make an ogg out of it and send me?Sep 19 19:05
_DougI'll try ..Sep 19 19:06
_Dougdownload could not complete .. :(Sep 19 19:06
schestowitzIt drove my browser insane. I had to shut it down.Sep 19 19:06
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trmancoschestowitz, what did you mean with this?Sep 19 19:10
schestowitzAfter one browser mess (had to restart it), I gave up.Sep 19 19:10
trmanco"<schestowitz> I don't remember the figure for sure, trmanco. Maybe you can help me out here: http://www.redhatmagazine.com/2008/0..."Sep 19 19:10
schestowitzMicrosoft: 1; me: 0. They screw Internet users with those codecs and f* up URLs.Sep 19 19:10
schestowitzThey mix up some thing there, I think.Sep 19 19:11
trmancothe kernel thing?Sep 19 19:11
schestowitzYes. They treat Linux like its one unit.Sep 19 19:12
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schestowitzis someone here using Windows?Sep 19 19:16
trmancono waySep 19 19:16
trmancoI'm not going back to that thingSep 19 19:16
schestowitzlast thing Doug said was: "<_Doug> iexp1ore.exe is trying to hack this crapware .. :) <_Doug> grab it while you can view the source and see if you can wget it .. :) <_Doug> http://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspx" Well, I can't get it to work even with wget. It's a stream service.Sep 19 19:17
schestowitzThey force people to use spyware just to gain access to this advert.Sep 19 19:17
trmanco:|Sep 19 19:18
schestowitzI wouldn't mind it if it didn't mention Novell. Doug probably was at work using some Win32 box he's forced to use.Sep 19 19:19
schestowitzbenJIman uses Microsoft Linux. Maybe he can access that file. :-)Sep 19 19:20
benJImanWhat file?Sep 19 19:20
trmancoMicrosoft Linux?Sep 19 19:20
benJImanschestowitz: The video linked on the lse page|?Sep 19 19:20
schestowitzYes, please.Sep 19 19:20
benJImanSlow server is slow.Sep 19 19:21
trmancototem says that I don't have permission to view the file :|Sep 19 19:22
benJImanGrabbing it now.Sep 19 19:22
schestowitzOf course. chmod windows-user ~fileSep 19 19:22
benJImanschestowitz: You could do it yourself of course.Sep 19 19:23
schestowitzNovell at 2min 45secSep 19 19:23
trmancoI gotSep 19 19:23
schestowitzwget doesn't do mmsSep 19 19:23
trmancowith wgetSep 19 19:23
trmancoput http in the protocolSep 19 19:23
benJImanschestowitz: "mencoder mms://wm.microsoft.com/ms/windowsserversyst em/facts/videos/LSE_CaseStudy_Rev_750k.wmv -oac copy -ovc copy -o ./LSE_Casestudy.wmv"Sep 19 19:23
schestowitzhttp won't doSep 19 19:23
schestowitzOh.Sep 19 19:23
schestowitzThanks.Sep 19 19:23
trmancoit works :|Sep 19 19:23
trmancoI have the streamSep 19 19:23
trmanco:DSep 19 19:23
trmancothe server is slowSep 19 19:24
benJImanIt is.Sep 19 19:24
trmancoit won't stop buffering :|Sep 19 19:24
schestowitzMaybe it's served via the LSE. :-pSep 19 19:24
trmancololSep 19 19:24
twitterIf you try to access that file by http, it returns a text file:Sep 19 19:26
trmancohttp in wgetSep 19 19:26
trmancoit works hereSep 19 19:27
twitter[Reference]Sep 19 19:27
twitterRef1=http://wm.microsoft.com/ms/windowsserversystem/f...Sep 19 19:27
twitterRef2=http://207.46.211.254:80/ms/windows...Sep 19 19:27
twitter2nd does nothing.Sep 19 19:27
twitter1st returns text file.Sep 19 19:27
twitterasses.Sep 19 19:27
trmancotrmanco@trmanco-desktop:~/Desktop$ wget http://wm.microsoft.com/ms/windowsse...Sep 19 19:27
trmanco--20:25:42--  http://wm.microsoft.com/ms/wind...Sep 19 19:27
trmanco           => `LSE_CaseStudy_Rev_750k.wmv'Sep 19 19:27
trmancoResolving wm.microsoft.com... 207.46.211.254Sep 19 19:27
trmancoConnecting to wm.microsoft.com|207.46.211.254|:80... connected.Sep 19 19:27
trmancoHTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OKSep 19 19:27
*kentma has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 19 19:27
trmancoLength: 226 [video/x-ms-wvx]Sep 19 19:27
trmanco100%[====================================>] 226           --.--K/sSep 19 19:27
trmanco20:25:42 (20.72 MB/s) - `LSE_CaseStudy_Rev_750k.wmv' saved [226/226]Sep 19 19:27
twittertry ls -lrthSep 19 19:28
twitter226 bytes is text fileSep 19 19:28
twitterassesSep 19 19:28
trmancoI some how got it to streamSep 19 19:28
trmancoit has the wmv extensionSep 19 19:28
twitterdid you actually see a video?Sep 19 19:29
trmancoyesSep 19 19:29
trmancoi'm seeing it right nowSep 19 19:29
twitterwas it worth seeing?Sep 19 19:29
trmancowellSep 19 19:29
trmancoI'm not really sureSep 19 19:29
trmancoits always bufferingSep 19 19:29
trmancoyou can't see the hole video at once :|Sep 19 19:30
trmancoIt's nice to watchSep 19 19:30
trmancoa lot of lies go on the videoSep 19 19:30
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twitterof course it's full of lies, the LSE flunked out.Sep 19 19:31
trmancoIf you wan't to see I'll host the file somewhere for you to downloadSep 19 19:31
schestowitzI want to see the Novell bitSep 19 19:31
twitterHere's a fun one, midsized business skips Vista, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/212173Sep 19 19:32
schestowitzI'm at 40%Sep 19 19:32
twitterMidsized represents most business.Sep 19 19:32
twitterha haSep 19 19:32
twitterM$ had better hurry up with it's patent revenue.Sep 19 19:32
schestowitzWha!? They don't supersize with Ultimate at these times of prosperity?Sep 19 19:32
*kentma (n=user@host86-153-159-217.range86-153.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellSep 19 19:33
schestowitzThat can't be good, can it? http://www.billparish.com/msbargraph699.gifSep 19 19:33
twitterBad for M$, good for everyone else.Sep 19 19:33
schestowitzWell, if the above is true, they can collapse their system along with everyone else.Sep 19 19:34
schestowitzI read yesterday (after inquiry) that California's debt is $3 trillion, IIRC.Sep 19 19:34
schestowitzBill Gates is small peanuts compared to some of these people in UAE.Sep 19 19:34
twitterYes, but Bill reads their email.Sep 19 19:35
schestowitzWTF?Sep 19 19:36
schestowitzIt finished at 2:11Sep 19 19:36
schestowitz(the video .. LSE_Casestudy.wmv )Sep 19 19:36
twitterI wonder if Uncle Sam will bail out M$ when it finally craters.Sep 19 19:36
trmancololSep 19 19:37
schestowitzMaybe Exxon will borrow them some.Sep 19 19:37
twitterTheir crashing stock price is going to sink a lot of Widows and orphans.Sep 19 19:37
schestowitzSeriously now, we don't know any of this for sure, but with all the scandals around, we might find out soon (months/years)Sep 19 19:37
twitterExxon/Mobile/Soft?Sep 19 19:37
schestowitzNovell is already pretty much bust.Sep 19 19:37
schestowitzIt's dangling by Microsoft's strings for survival for all I can gather. Corel is close to its EOL as well, I think.Sep 19 19:38
twitterPeople with M$ stock have to be sore.  It has yet to get back to it's pre bubble price from 10 years ago.Sep 19 19:39
twitterThat means it's worth half of what people bought it for.Sep 19 19:39
schestowitzzoobab: are you there? Can I use the EPO photos?Sep 19 19:39
schestowitztwitter: Microsoft buys its own stock now. So "people"=MicrosoftSep 19 19:40
schestowitzBefore Bishop quit he posted about it. Let me find it.Sep 19 19:40
twitterIt used to be widely held.Sep 19 19:40
schestowitzWatrch the chart: http://www.billparish.com/msbargraph699.gifSep 19 19:40
schestowitzHoly moly. I found it quickly, so I suppose it's already a popular pageSep 19 19:40
schestowitzhttp://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.co... http://www.billparish.com/msbargraph699.gif Sep 19 19:41
twitterchart ends in 1999 is it supposed to be an animated gif?Sep 19 19:41
schestowitzA month goes by and Todd quits his job after so many years of watching Microsoft.Sep 19 19:41
schestowitztwitter: no, it has not been update since, no animation. That said, remember it's pre-bubble, so things can't have improved.Sep 19 19:42
schestowitzhttp://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/m/msft http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/mi...Sep 19 19:43
schestowitzNovell is on buyback mode as well. The stock performs poorly.Sep 19 19:43
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schestowitz_Doug: I got the video, but it's only 2:11-'long'Sep 19 19:55
_Doug?Sep 19 19:55
schestowitzUnless the download got cutSep 19 19:55
_Dougmeybe .. I just popped in .. will try again tomorrow ..Sep 19 19:56
schestowitzWhat did did it say about Novell migration anywya?Sep 19 19:56
schestowitzNever mind, it's unimportant.Sep 19 19:57
_DougIt was panning across screens while the voice talked about tyhe benefits of the LSE moving to dotnet frame work .. and the screen listed options to migrate from Novell, ungrade from UNIX etc ..Sep 19 19:58
_DougIt's funny considering their partnership with Novell ..Sep 19 19:58
_DouggtgSep 19 19:58
*_Doug has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Sep 19 19:58
MinceRooh, apple is "innovating" again: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?...Sep 19 20:29
schestowitzThis reduces confidence in their patents. It might do more harm than good to Apple.Sep 19 20:31
MinceRthey deserve all the harm they can getSep 19 20:34
schestowitzApple and Microsoft fight each other too, which can't be too bad.Sep 19 20:35
MinceRthey should fight each other in hellSep 19 20:37
schestowitzThey do in the US.Sep 19 20:38
MinceRwell, that's pretty close, i guess.Sep 19 20:42
MinceRunfortunately hungary is pretty close too.Sep 19 20:42
schestowitzTo the vampires maybe. http://www.youtube.com/my_favorites#Sep 19 20:44
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vywTMyQZ7ocSep 19 20:44
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pombat42The video doesn't work in Ubuntu with Totem and all the codecs either. Who the heck does Microsoft expect to win over if not people running other platforms?Sep 19 21:52
pombat42IOW doesn't it make sense to allow Linux, Unix or OsX users to easily see what they (Microsoft) have to offer?Sep 19 21:53
schestowitzPeople running other platform are already in greener pastures perhaps. They can only win over people who assume that computers crash and fall ill (viruses).Sep 19 21:53
pombat42Sadly people believe computers are supposed to crash.Sep 19 21:54
pombat42They all do but some are much better than others and Windows desktop systems are by far the worst.Sep 19 21:54
schestowitzWell, they can... if you don't buy a UPS.Sep 19 21:55
pombat42Software isn't perfect and neither is hardware. It's getting closer to perfection. Rebooting a desktop system several times a day is insane though yet many Windows users think this is normalSep 19 22:05
schestowitzWell, without virtual desktops and heavy workloads, maybe it's no big deal. Anyway, KDE also restored sessions entirely.Sep 19 22:06
neighborlee not that it really matters perse but..I think from his style of writing..that 'alternatealias' is jeffrey stedfast  ..it all adds up now..maybe im wrong but it seems to make sense why he would be so vehemently oppose removoing  mono etc. ;)..I bring up as that username on ubuntu forums was doing his best to make case for Mono.Sep 19 22:09
benJImanneighborlee: Are you in favour of removing mono?Sep 19 22:10
schestowitzIt seems possible.Sep 19 22:11
neighborleeabsolutelySep 19 22:11
neighborleeits not necesssarySep 19 22:11
schestowitzJeffrey has defended Mono more than anyone.Sep 19 22:11
schestowitzHe also published an item against me, something along the lines of "debunking the schestowitz" in one post titleSep 19 22:11
neighborleelinux means choice,,,let uubntu give me the choice at install, not force it on me.Sep 19 22:11
benJImanneighborlee: It is if you want to allow .net developers to write software for a Free platform.Sep 19 22:11
neighborleehuh ?Sep 19 22:11
schestowitzBut it's interesting what proof can be shown to prove that "Alternatie-ALIAS" is an alias of his.Sep 19 22:12
neighborlee:)Sep 19 22:12
schestowitzJudging by the description of the forum, there's a match,Sep 19 22:12
neighborleeI caught it based on writing style..'looky here' , as I found that style here as well: http://jeffreystedfast.blogspot.com/2...Sep 19 22:12
schestowitzneighborlee: you woke up SUSEJiman, so you must have hit a sensitive point.Sep 19 22:12
neighborleeroflSep 19 22:13
benJImanneighborlee: Some polls indicate that c# is used by even more developers than java now. I'm skeptical of that, but certainly a lot of people do use it.Sep 19 22:13
schestowitzbenJIman: so what?Sep 19 22:13
neighborleebenJIman, oh ok ic your pointSep 19 22:13
schestowitzA lot of people east at McDonalds.Sep 19 22:13
schestowitzDoes it make the food there healthy?Sep 19 22:13
benJImanschestowitz: Actually someone in another channel mentioned boycottnovell and I popped over to look at what you were discussing.Sep 19 22:13
neighborleebenJIman, well,,,id love to rally behind oss but with M$'s track record and the pact with novel , and the actual ecma license ( err the promise ;)..) I see no reason to trust mono on any levelSep 19 22:14
benJImanschestowitz: regardless of whether it's superior (I don't think it is), that's a massive developerbase who could contribute to free software.Sep 19 22:14
schestowitzbenJIman: got proof?Sep 19 22:14
schestowitzAll I see is a slog.Sep 19 22:14
benJIman23:09:10 < zx64> Does Boycott Novell have the slogan "No Way, No How, Novell"?Sep 19 22:14
neighborleesince when did size matter ? <grins>Sep 19 22:15
schestowitzAs pointed out earlier, a corruption-riddled CA might be rubbing Microsoft's back.Sep 19 22:15
benJImanschestowitz: Proof of what now?Sep 19 22:15
schestowitz.NETification.Sep 19 22:15
schestowitzNot that it's relevantSep 19 22:15
neighborleeno shame in supporting good change ;)Sep 19 22:16
schestowitzEven if it ever become ubiquitous, that would be even /MORE/ of a reason to avoid it.Sep 19 22:16
schestowitzDon't play as a follower or you'll always be a second-class citizen.Sep 19 22:16
schestowitzAs Dana Blankenhorn puts it, "Lead pony".Sep 19 22:17
benJImanschestowitz: .netification of what? I've seen statistics varying from 10% to about 60% of businesses using .net for business software development. A lot of people using .net whichever end of that the figure actually lies.Sep 19 22:17
schestowitzGet them off it.Sep 19 22:18
schestowitzNot with Wine... and cigarettes.Sep 19 22:18
benJImanlolSep 19 22:19
schestowitzYou can't substitute something with second best.Sep 19 22:19
schestowitzIf you take them down the route of cheap imitations (Mono), they'll be disappointed.Sep 19 22:19
schestowitzIE on Linux... Chrome on CrossOver...Sep 19 22:19
neighborleewe're all on the same team here, or we're supposed to be...oss willl someday be the beacon we all hang our hearts on...if only M$ had a track record of supporting it with no strings attached ( OOXML, adnosium<) I'd be fine with mono..but we're not there are we ;)Sep 19 22:20
benJImanNo-one's forcing you to use it.Sep 19 22:20
schestowitzNot to mention that running thing on Mono for them could be a legal time bomb.Sep 19 22:20
benJImanI think it's a great thing that .net developers can write software for linux.Sep 19 22:20
neighborleebenJIman, actuallly, ubuntu isSep 19 22:20
neighborleewhich is wrong.Sep 19 22:21
benJImanNo they're not.Sep 19 22:21
schestowitzbenJIman: they shove this Novell excertment in distros.Sep 19 22:21
benJImanYou can easily remove it.Sep 19 22:21
neighborleeits insalled out of the boxSep 19 22:21
benJImanexcertment?Sep 19 22:21
neighborleeso I  have to remove it..why cant it be a option at 'install time' ??Sep 19 22:21
benJImanneighborlee: Oh no :oSep 19 22:21
neighborleelinux=choice ;)Sep 19 22:21
benJImanneighborlee: Because asking about every package at install time is a great idea.Sep 19 22:21
schestowitzbenJIman: this is no 'package'Sep 19 22:22
schestowitzIt's no ordinary package.Sep 19 22:22
benJImanYou can remove mono-core and everything goes.Sep 19 22:22
schestowitzIn fact, Novell and Microsoft pollute not just with Mono.Sep 19 22:22
neighborleebenJIman, the same arguement can be made, to give users a 'choice' at install time whether o r not to have itSep 19 22:22
benJImanThere's this handy system of package management with automatic dependency management.Sep 19 22:22
neighborleeand that option is more democratic :))Sep 19 22:22
benJImanneighborlee: And means nothing to most users.Sep 19 22:23
neighborleethen leave mono out ;)Sep 19 22:23
benJImanYou will just put people off.Sep 19 22:23
benJImanWhy?Sep 19 22:23
benJImanIt's free software.Sep 19 22:23
neighborleenotSep 19 22:23
neighborleeecma is notSep 19 22:23
neighborleeits a 'promose'Sep 19 22:23
neighborleepromiseSep 19 22:23
benJImanMost of the world does not live in the US so there is not even a threat.Sep 19 22:23
neighborleethe movel pact, made that worthlessSep 19 22:23
neighborlee..novelSep 19 22:24
benJImanIf you think that Mono is the only thing infringing patents in Ubuntu I think you are deluding yourself.Sep 19 22:24
neighborleename oneSep 19 22:24
benJImanOne what?Sep 19 22:24
neighborleeinfringementSep 19 22:24
benJImanIt's pretty much impossible to write any nontrivial software without infringing software patents, IBM have some on trivial programming concepts for example.Sep 19 22:25
schestowitzNovell is selfish. It sells IP peace of mind, remember?Sep 19 22:25
benJImanMicrosoft even have one on pageup/pagedown granted recently.Sep 19 22:25
schestowitzIn other words, it tells you to be scared and buy protection from it.Sep 19 22:25
schestowitzMicrosoft also adds that Mono is just for Novell.Sep 19 22:25
schestowitzPut 2 and 2 together.Sep 19 22:25
benJImanNot to mention one on software doing a different thing when a hardware device is double clicked vs single clicked.Sep 19 22:25
neighborleebenJIman, and ibm isn't a convicted monopolistSep 19 22:25
schestowitzbenJIman: itrrelevent. Some patents stand no chance in court.Sep 19 22:25
benJImanneighborlee: What has that got to do with whether or not their patents are infringed?Sep 19 22:25
*moparx has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Sep 19 22:26
schestowitzMono is a CLONE, not a patent infringement.Sep 19 22:26
schestowitzWatch the agreement with Novell. See under "clone products"Sep 19 22:26
neighborleewell im just reiterating  seth@gnome.org's claims and it makes sense..the  mono ecma standardization is just a promise, which novel pact with M$ broke.Sep 19 22:27
benJImanAnd?Sep 19 22:27
benJImanECMA standardisation is fairly irrelevant anyway, many parts of mono are not covered.Sep 19 22:27
benJImanA lot of free software is clones of proprietary software, I'm not going to boycott it.Sep 19 22:28
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellSep 19 22:28
neighborleeIt is nothing more than a farce, and coming from liars like those at Microsoft ("Red Hat customers owe us money"), isn't worth the paper it's written on.Sep 19 22:29
schestowitzI am working on a post at the moment.Sep 19 22:33
schestowitzIt shall explain to benJIman and other OpenSUSErs that are in denial that Microsoft intends to sue and to troll by proxy.Sep 19 22:33
benJImanlolSep 19 22:34
schestowitzIt's funny that they have that deal with Novell because it doesn't pretend Microsoft from suing Novell and customer via their procies.Sep 19 22:34
schestowitzWhich they may have done already (Oct. 2007)Sep 19 22:34
benJImanThe deal doesn't prevent them from suing Novell anyway.Sep 19 22:34
schestowitzTrue. In other words, it's useless.Sep 19 22:34
schestowitzAs the FSD called it, "worse than useless"Sep 19 22:34
schestowitz*FSFSep 19 22:34
schestowitz...Just an excuse to kick off a little collusion and screw Ubuntu, Red hat, Mandriva...Sep 19 22:35
benJImanschestowitz: The patent covenant is useless yes.Sep 19 22:41
benJImanI might even go as far as worse than useless.Sep 19 22:41
*MinceR waits for the point where logic will break.Sep 19 22:46
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 19 23:04

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