| schestowitz | Prepare for the MS bloggers to be all smug | Feb 26 10:33 |
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| schestowitz | "Bradley Kuhn, Software Freedom Law Center policy analyst, told The Reg Wednesday evening: "It's a good moment for people to take a step back and re-think how friendly Microsoft is to open source."" | Feb 26 10:34 |
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| *ChanServ has quit (shutting down) | Feb 26 10:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/... "In the most recent case, Microsoft settled with Taiwanese mouse-maker Primax after accusing it of violating its tilt-wheel technologies." | Feb 26 10:36 |
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| schestowitz | Board Game Maker Sues Google, Claiming Trademark Infringement < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090... > | Feb 26 10:41 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft tries to embargo TomTom.. "Not surprisingly, Microsoft is using the infamous ITC loophole to get two shots at forcing TomTom to pay up -- meaning that it's both sued the company in court, and gone to the ITC to have it try to block the import of TomTom products. " http://techdirt.com/articles/20... | Feb 26 10:43 |
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| oiaohm_ | TomTom could try embargoing MS as well | Feb 26 10:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | Since most of there development is done overseas and is imported. | Feb 26 10:45 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 26 10:47 |
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| schestowitz | i thought so too | Feb 26 10:47 |
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| oiaohm_ | MS is playing a really risky game of chicken. | Feb 26 10:48 |
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| oiaohm_ | Delay on code imports would stuff MS Windows 7 release. | Feb 26 10:48 |
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| schestowitz | They have no choice | Feb 26 10:49 |
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| schestowitz | they are losing | Feb 26 10:49 |
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| schestowitz | $0 windows.. | Feb 26 10:50 |
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| oiaohm_ | There is losing and there is risking getting you head bricked in. | Feb 26 10:50 |
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| oiaohm_ | This is the latter. | Feb 26 10:51 |
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| schestowitz | "Nokia aims to shed 1000 staff, voluntarily" | Feb 26 10:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | Nokia is over due for a staff reduction. | Feb 26 10:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | They normally kick out so many and then require some new ones. | Feb 26 10:54 |
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| schestowitz | "I was going to spend my money on upgrading to Windows 7 when it is released, but after reading this, I am disgusted at Microsoft's apparent greed (the world is…" | Feb 26 10:55 |
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| harrytuttle | hello | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23479/1148/ | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| harrytuttle | im sure you already saw this: | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| harrytuttle | http://lwn.net/Articles/320737/#Comments | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| harrytuttle | ms suing a linux-based vendor on patents | Feb 26 10:56 |
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| harrytuttle | oh well, okay so the cats out of the bag | Feb 26 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 26 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | I hope TomTomy fights | Feb 26 10:57 |
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| schestowitz | Someone should encourage it not to settle | Feb 26 10:57 |
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| harrytuttle | well, I guess its clear now there is high risk they will sue anyone using mono-infested dotnet crap... | Feb 26 10:58 |
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| harrytuttle | yeah TomTom should never get into cross-license here, what is clearly ms-number one option | Feb 26 10:59 |
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| harrytuttle | to make it even more so look that anyone embedding linux needs that crap crosslicense | Feb 26 10:59 |
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| harrytuttle | fsf or anyone promoting gnu/linux should step in and prevent a settlement | Feb 26 11:00 |
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| harrytuttle | heck , dont all the mobiles that use flash-storage use FAT somehow? | Feb 26 11:01 |
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| schestowitz | Same with OIN | Feb 26 11:02 |
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| schestowitz | yes, FAT would affect other Linux-powered gadgets | Feb 26 11:02 |
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| schestowitz | EU to oblige Microsoft to offer competitors’ browsers < http://www.euractiv.com/en/infosociety/e... > There\s already an attack on Google for 'daring' to protest Microsoft's crimes vs. Netscape | Feb 26 11:07 |
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| schestowitz | Steve Jobs Probably Won't Return To Apple < http://www.pcworld.com/businesscent... > Good. | Feb 26 11:08 |
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| schestowitz | Lenovo Cuts 450 Jobs in China < http://www.pcworld.com/article/16... > | Feb 26 11:08 |
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| kentma1 | i though that lenovo were a chinese company? | Feb 26 11:08 |
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| kentma1 | I. | Feb 26 11:08 |
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| schestowitz | It is. Semiconductor Revenue in Massive Slowdown < http://www.pcworld.com/article/160242... > | Feb 26 11:12 |
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| schestowitz | Signs of miserable sales (can't sell it at a cost): Microsoft Readying Low-cost Windows Server OS < http://www.pcworld.com/article/160219/microsoft... > | Feb 26 11:18 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, mib_epfsdc | Feb 26 11:28 |
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| oiaohm_ | The crunch is on. | Feb 26 11:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now if samba can get a working ADS out the door it will get way worse. | Feb 26 11:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Nas servers being offered as full servers. | Feb 26 11:35 |
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| kentma1 | indeed. I can't see how MS can possibly maintain a presence in this market in the long run. Competing with free is very difficult - they're relying on market inertia now, there is no other reason for buying MS. | Feb 26 11:50 |
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| oiaohm_ | vendor lock in. | Feb 26 11:51 |
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| oiaohm_ | X11 when its 100 percent solid should see focus return to graphical for management. | Feb 26 11:51 |
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| kentma1 | graphical generally assumes personal presence, though... and whilst I appreciate that you can longline X with ssh, it's not always all that responsive, whereas a screen cli session over ssh is totally reliable, stateful and suffers very little performance drop even over huge distances. | Feb 26 11:53 |
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| oiaohm_ | Local mangement kentma1 | Feb 26 11:54 |
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| oiaohm_ | Using graphic where if it goes splat takes all you means to control it is not suitable. ie the way X11 has been. | Feb 26 11:54 |
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| oiaohm_ | Firefox with the instructions and the console is really handy at times. | Feb 26 11:55 |
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| schestowitz | zoobab01: you got the court complaints, right? The PDF... | Feb 26 12:02 |
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| kentma1 | oiaohm_: I'm not sure I really understand what you're driving at here, though. X is a long way up the stack on linux machines, whereas a cli is almost talking directly to the kernel, it takes a lot to kill a cli, whereas killing X is relatively easy due to its complexity. I agree that having a browser open when you're fixing is good, but again, you really rely on most of the machine working in order to do that, so it can't really work for | Feb 26 12:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | X11 is not just complexit | Feb 26 12:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | Cli do lock up. | Feb 26 12:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | But you can safely switch to another one and recovered the dead one. | Feb 26 12:07 |
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| oiaohm_ | X11 problem has been due to its video card handling that was made impossiable. | Feb 26 12:08 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its not X11 compexitity its management of video cards was the issue nothing more. | Feb 26 12:08 |
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| kentma1 | oiaohm_: I must disagree with that - X has all manner of dependencies, including many complex libraries, mouse drivers, networking, sockets, etc. etc. Even starting an x-session by hand is quite difficult unless you're pretty familiar with it. Cli is about as close to the iron as you can get, is really my point. | Feb 26 12:10 |
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| oiaohm_ | My point is simple does that really matter if you can recover from a X11 failure just as simplely as a console switching. | Feb 26 12:11 |
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| oiaohm_ | Cli is close to kernel but nothing that is an application is 100 percent protected from stuffing up the terminal either. | Feb 26 12:11 |
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| kentma1 | I agree. | Feb 26 12:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | Until X11 reaches that point its not a safe admin tool. | Feb 26 12:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | That is not far off. | Feb 26 12:13 |
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| harrytuttle | regarding the FAT-patent litigation, there was an interesting comment on slashdot | Feb 26 12:15 |
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| harrytuttle | "What's really f**ed up about this is that Microsoft is just now deciding to do something. FAT has existed for almost two decades, and the FS driver in Linux for quite some time as well. They waited for their FS to become a de facto standard so they could drop the hammer on people." | Feb 26 12:16 |
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| harrytuttle | "If you own a trademark you have to actively defend it, lest it become a standard term for the product type. Shouldn't technology and patents be the same way? If you allow entire industries to adopt your patented method without defending it you should lose the patent." | Feb 26 12:16 |
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| MinceR | indeed | Feb 26 12:17 |
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| harrytuttle | that could as well relate to mono/dotnet in the future... let it adopt as "standard" on linux over time and then sue over patented stuff | Feb 26 12:18 |
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| harrytuttle | the risk is higher with a company at least trying to kill linux than a company who invests sums directly into the platform (Sun, IBM, Google) | Feb 26 12:19 |
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| harrytuttle | i can see absolutely no other interest for ms to let mono flourish on THE most feared competing operating system: GNU/Linux other than to extend their reign via patents later... it would absolutely make no sense from their standpoint to just watch and even help such a project inderectly by funding Novell | Feb 26 12:23 |
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| harrytuttle | its obvious that the ms-novell deal is setup as a proxy /tool for porting over that crap instead of ms doing that themselves.... | Feb 26 12:27 |
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| oiaohm_ | Novell was dead in the water before the MS deal. | Feb 26 12:28 |
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| oiaohm_ | Problem here Novell still costs MS a lot of money. | Feb 26 12:29 |
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| oiaohm_ | Ms does not want a patent war. | Feb 26 12:30 |
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| oiaohm_ | so far MAD has held. | Feb 26 12:31 |
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| harrytuttle | true, they want to settle on threat and extortion over possible patent litigations | Feb 26 12:31 |
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| harrytuttle | want to put sticker on everything commerical linux as to make it look "clean" | Feb 26 12:31 |
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| harrytuttle | =paid for | Feb 26 12:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | There is a bigger problem here. | Feb 26 12:32 |
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| oiaohm_ | MS takes in a lot of money each year for Fat patents on devices. | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| schestowitz | harrytuttle: yes, that's what they want | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | So if tom tom wins MS has another big hole in there income. | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| schestowitz | Response #1: eliminate swpatents; #2: avoid Microsoft technologies (direct copies like Mono) | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | I really don't know what MS is thinking doing it at this time. | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm_: yes, timing is odd | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| harrytuttle | any links to show their income based on FAT? | Feb 26 12:33 |
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| schestowitz | Compared to previous assaults. | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | Bear in mind Novell might announce its layoffs today | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | But maybe tomorr | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | MSF sank this week | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | $16.xx | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | And Ballmer couldn't give answer to his investors. | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | I'm doing a post about it ATM | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| schestowitz | Give me 10 minuteds | Feb 26 12:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Most of MS patent income on there books comes from FAT. | Feb 26 12:35 |
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| oiaohm_ | This is why I say why the hell are they mad enough to put the FAT ones on the table. | Feb 26 12:35 |
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| oiaohm_ | Changing over to exFAT was ment to keep there money tree on FAT coming in. | Feb 26 12:36 |
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| harrytuttle | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File... | Feb 26 12:39 |
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| harrytuttle | seems like all patents regarding FAT deal with short<->long filenames | Feb 26 12:40 |
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| harrytuttle | so they patented their own shortcomings and circumventions | Feb 26 12:41 |
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| harrytuttle | as everything else would have been prior art anyway | Feb 26 12:41 |
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| harrytuttle | thinking of it, maybe thats also the trick with MS-XML | Feb 26 12:42 |
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| harrytuttle | make it really reatrded and patent the methods to make it behave a little less insane | Feb 26 12:43 |
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| harrytuttle | reatrded=retarded | Feb 26 12:43 |
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| harrytuttle | so for others the basic version is useless crap (FAT with short names) and the actual methods to make it useful are patented | Feb 26 12:44 |
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| harrytuttle | brilliant idea if you think about it | Feb 26 12:44 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now there is a major downside. | Feb 26 12:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | What reason does TomTom have to use fat. | Feb 26 12:45 |
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| oiaohm_ | Now that would be pure funny if devices makers started demarding Linux to update there firmwares because they are using Linux. | Feb 26 12:46 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, mikko | Feb 26 12:58 |
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| mikko | hi | Feb 26 12:59 |
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| schestowitz | harrytuttle: I made a new post. Probably contains typos. I quote you guys there.. so it's like groupthink. | Feb 26 12:59 |
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| mikko | were there any case when some patent troll (e.g. Acacia) were using Microsoft patents for their dirty job, if so can you please point at right direction | Feb 26 13:01 |
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| schestowitz | No, just Microsoft employees | Feb 26 13:04 |
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| schestowitz | They attacked Red Hat (and Novell) shortly after hiring Microsoft people to join their management | Feb 26 13:05 |
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| schestowitz | This came also days after Ballmer warned that terrible things might happen | Feb 26 13:05 |
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| schestowitz | Just got this by mail: "I saw this an immediately thought of both of you. It looks like we may be at the "then they fight you" stage. I guess the then you win isn't too far off :) http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft... " | Feb 26 13:05 |
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| mikko | so TomTom case is the first time MS patents are being used for litigation? | Feb 26 13:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | Win/Loss | Feb 26 13:12 |
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| oiaohm_ | Question is who gets what. | Feb 26 13:12 |
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| schestowitz | mikko: not really. | Feb 26 13:17 |
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| schestowitz | They did the same thing against a hardware maker | Feb 26 13:17 |
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| schestowitz | This time it's software and it's Linux too. | Feb 26 13:17 |
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| mikko | where I can read about it | Feb 26 13:18 |
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| mikko | the hardware maker | Feb 26 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | The Microsoft shills are at it now: http://blog.actonline.org/2009/02... | Feb 26 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | mikko: I made this post with 4 links to it: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/26... | Feb 26 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/31/... | Feb 26 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10002919-56.... | Feb 26 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/micr... | Feb 26 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | TomTom Rejects Microsoft's Patent Infringement Claims < http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/artic... > | Feb 26 13:20 |
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| mikko | thanks | Feb 26 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | Another plane has just crased. http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/e... | Feb 26 13:26 |
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| schestowitz | *shed | Feb 26 13:26 |
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| harrytuttle | http://blog.actonline.org/2009/02/microsoft... | Feb 26 13:44 |
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| harrytuttle | just read it | Feb 26 13:44 |
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| harrytuttle | who are those shills? | Feb 26 13:44 |
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| harrytuttle | act online? | Feb 26 13:44 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 26 13:53 |
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| schestowitz | I'm writing about them ATM | Feb 26 13:53 |
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| schestowitz | They do nasty stuff in Europe at the moment. | Feb 26 13:53 |
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| harrytuttle | http://www.actonline.org/na/members/index.html | Feb 26 14:26 |
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| harrytuttle | this is sooo 90s | Feb 26 14:27 |
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| harrytuttle | hate when someone pretends to be on the small mans side but in fact they're not | Feb 26 14:27 |
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| harrytuttle | they are just pretenders | Feb 26 14:28 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, give me 10 minutes | Feb 26 14:31 |
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| schestowitz | I'll give it to the, | Feb 26 14:31 |
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| schestowitz | *them | Feb 26 14:31 |
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| schestowitz | A detailed overview of Microsoft's latest activities in Europe, using lobbies: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/26/ms-e... | Feb 26 14:51 |
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| schestowitz | Carphone Warehouse to axe 450 jobs < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009... > | Feb 26 14:56 |
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| schestowitz | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/02/mi... "Eben Moglen—a Columbia University law professor and the chairman of the Software Freedom Law Center—once described the FAT patents as a "proverbial Sword of Damocles hanging over the open source community"" | Feb 26 15:04 |
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| kentma1 | The FAT patent might be the sword, but there is not doubt at all that the USPTO is the armoury. | Feb 26 15:06 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft on the equivalent of more layoffs: http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Micr... "Microsoft, citing the "realities of a deteriorating economy," will reduce by 10 percent the amount it pays employment agencies for many of its temporary workers -- and cut by 15 percent the target billing rate for future temporary work." | Feb 26 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | So they cut wages rather then cut even MORE jobs. Not good for them... | Feb 26 15:07 |
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| PetoKraus | nice article, roy | Feb 26 15:07 |
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| PetoKraus | that ms-eu-patent-lobby | Feb 26 15:07 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks. | Feb 26 15:08 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/02/26/w... "Even worse, about a third of netbooks ship with Linux. Microsoft makes nothing from those machines." That's why Windows is dying as a _cash cow_ | Feb 26 15:08 |
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| PetoKraus | bengy has a good post: http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/0... | Feb 26 15:10 |
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| schestowitz | He still blogs? | Feb 26 15:11 |
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| schestowitz | WP | Feb 26 15:11 |
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| PetoKraus | yeah | Feb 26 15:11 |
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| PetoKraus | it's going down the slope though | Feb 26 15:11 |
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| mib_n6dw08 | hi - oh, sorry, it's kentma3 here just trying the applet on BN... hey, it works! | Feb 26 15:11 |
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| PetoKraus | http://thepiratebay.org/ | Feb 26 15:12 |
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| schestowitz | Hehe. Subheadline very typical | Feb 26 15:12 |
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| kentma1 | very impressive. | Feb 26 15:12 |
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| PetoKraus | the image might be worth quoting | Feb 26 15:12 |
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| schestowitz | "Make me espresso before you die" | Feb 26 15:13 |
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| schestowitz | Which image? | Feb 26 15:13 |
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| PetoKraus | http://thepiratebay.org/ | Feb 26 15:13 |
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| PetoKraus | i'll dig the link outta the source code | Feb 26 15:14 |
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| PetoKraus | http://static.thepiratebay.org/img/i... | Feb 26 15:14 |
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| PetoKraus | umm | Feb 26 15:14 |
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| PetoKraus | http://static.thepiratebay.org/dood... | Feb 26 15:14 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Feb 26 15:14 |
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| schestowitz | Yeah, I know that one. Does Beranger still use Win32? | Feb 26 15:16 |
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| PetoKraus | i guess so | Feb 26 15:16 |
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| PetoKraus | he's still ranting about some antiviruses | Feb 26 15:16 |
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| kentma1 | hehe | Feb 26 15:17 |
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| schestowitz | n00b :-) | Feb 26 15:18 |
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| schestowitz | zoobab01: did you see the GE logos in IAM? | Feb 26 15:19 |
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| schestowitz | Those buggers are now funding the patent cartel? | Feb 26 15:19 |
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| dalton | why boycotting novell? | Feb 26 15:24 |
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| PetoKraus | in short: cause of the deal with microsoft | Feb 26 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | Memo reveals multiple breaches of ID card database < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,10000... > | Feb 26 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | dalton: because they began some of this | Feb 26 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | In 2006 they came to Microsoft and signed a patent deal | Feb 26 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft then used this to argue that Linux is "not free" and now it's attacking. | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| schestowitz | It attacked with words in May 2007 and in the court in Feb 2009 | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| dalton | i understood | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| dalton | cause it no more free | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| schestowitz | Novell does nothing to help | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| schestowitz | It uses these threats to market itself | Feb 26 15:26 |
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| schestowitz | "Intellectual property peace of mind," Novell calls it | Feb 26 15:27 |
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| dalton | but M$ is free in pirate mode | Feb 26 15:27 |
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| schestowitz | What's that? | Feb 26 15:27 |
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| schestowitz | Nicely put: "In other words, Microsoft "respects and appreciates" open source until it actually starts to replace Microsoft's offerings, in which case the charming smile is replaced with the shark's grimace." < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/02/has-mic... > | Feb 26 15:28 |
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| dalton | non authorized installation | Feb 26 15:28 |
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| schestowitz | dalton: Microsoft is in a freefall, so it's cracking down on whatever makes money. First illegal distributors of Windows and also this (extortions against Linux). | Feb 26 15:29 |
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| schestowitz | The Chinese (Web Servers) Are Coming < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/20... > | Feb 26 15:30 |
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| schestowitz | zer0c00l: are you still blocked? | Feb 26 15:30 |
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| zer0c00l | yeah | Feb 26 15:31 |
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| zer0c00l | i am | Feb 26 15:31 |
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| zer0c00l | schestowitz: i am still blocked ..using some webproxy | Feb 26 15:31 |
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| zer0c00l | seems like dirty work of admin | Feb 26 15:32 |
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| toros | hi | Feb 26 15:32 |
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| schestowitz | Hey | Feb 26 15:36 |
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| schestowitz | We're mentioned in a video | Feb 26 15:36 |
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| schestowitz | I'll post it to BN | Feb 26 15:36 |
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| schestowitz | Done: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/26/... | Feb 26 15:42 |
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| schestowitz | Quake Live Out Now! But not for GNU/Linux < http://www.inatux.com/articles/Q... > | Feb 26 15:42 |
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| toros | schestowitz: great video | Feb 26 15:52 |
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| schestowitz | toros: he actually pronounced my name right :-) | Feb 26 15:57 |
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| toros | schestowitz: :) | Feb 26 15:57 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-f... (Microsoft Sues TomTom For Linux Patent Infringement) | Feb 26 15:59 |
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| kentma1 | Quake is one of the games I've bought linux versions of... | Feb 26 16:00 |
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| kentma1 | Quake 3, that is. | Feb 26 16:00 |
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| toros | I wonder who will be next after TomTom... Red Hat? Canonical? or Mandriva? | Feb 26 16:00 |
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| schestowitz | There needn't be a "next" | Feb 26 16:00 |
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| schestowitz | I imagine that Microsoft went through companies like Brother and used similar tactics | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| kentma1 | I don't think MS will go for the "jugular", they'll try, instead, to put off companies which use Linux and push them onto Windows by suing them for using anything else. | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | Some of them caved | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | TomTom said no, so Microsoft sued and needed to list patents | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | Here is the press release: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/pr... | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft says nothing there about "Linux:' | Feb 26 16:01 |
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| schestowitz | So it's only people who looked deeply at the patents who saw the Linux link | Feb 26 16:02 |
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| schestowitz | This means that Microsoft is still on a crusader to become a leech, a patent merchant. | Feb 26 16:02 |
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| toros | I don't know what Microsoft will do when Linux starts gaining much more market share | Feb 26 16:04 |
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| kentma1 | sure, you can licence Windows directly from MS, or you can pay MS patent royalties to use anything which isn't Windows. You have to admire the complete dishonesty of the approach! | Feb 26 16:04 |
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| schestowitz | http://blogs.sun.com/webmink/ent... Simon Phipps (Sun): "This would explain the (now clearly hollow) charm offensive with the open source community." | Feb 26 16:04 |
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| schestowitz | kentma1: "Intellectual property is the next software." --Nathan Myhrvold, Microsoft patent troll | Feb 26 16:06 |
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| schestowitz | I.e. forget about making products... just make 'ideas'... | Feb 26 16:06 |
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| schestowitz | Those who develop software are floor scrubbers | Feb 26 16:06 |
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| schestowitz | Those who sell software are 'thinkers' (or patent harvesters) | Feb 26 16:06 |
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| kentma1 | actually, you don't have the ideas, you merely keep assembling other people's ideas in as many different ways as you can and patenting them. | Feb 26 16:07 |
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| schestowitz | yes, that's what patents are | Feb 26 16:07 |
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| kentma1 | this is the essence of software patents - they are virtually all which I have seen, essentially free of original content. | Feb 26 16:07 |
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| schestowitz | input1+input2=output | Feb 26 16:07 |
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| schestowitz | output becomes patent and then fed as another inputX | Feb 26 16:08 |
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| schestowitz | http://slated.org/the_right... "To claim ownership of knowledge is like claiming the rights of a God. " | Feb 26 16:08 |
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| kentma1 | the biggest issue is that this is only absurd to anyone who understands the technology. | Feb 26 16:08 |
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| kentma1 | To those who cannot understand the technology, the debate regarding patents is probably very unclear indeed. | Feb 26 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | It's down to lobbyisys (spin) and bribes | Feb 26 16:10 |
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| schestowitz | "Encourage innovation" | Feb 26 16:10 |
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| schestowitz | They also AstroTurf... ACT appears to have just set up another pseudo-grassroots site | Feb 26 16:11 |
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| schestowitz | They also put up posters across Brussels for some good brainwash. I'm always reminded of people who tell me that Microsoft is a "political movement", which make sense.. | Feb 26 16:11 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story... "Considering that TomTom violates the GPL and haven't exactly been the nicest company toward their competitors (they've sued Toyota and Garmin iirc), I'm not sure I want OIN to waste their efforts protecting TomTom." | Feb 26 16:14 |
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| avuton | Got a link to their gpl violation information? | Feb 26 16:15 |
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| avuton | Speaking of, my brand new plasma 58in has the GPL license built in under some options | Feb 26 16:16 |
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| schestowitz | avuton: I think so. | Feb 26 16:18 |
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| schestowitz | Red Hat Recruits Oracle/BEA Veteran Steve Hess < http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/25/... > | Feb 26 16:18 |
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| toros | good bye | Feb 26 16:20 |
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| schestowitz | avuton: http://www.google.com/search?q=site:boycottno... | Feb 26 16:22 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/14/tomtom-... | Feb 26 16:22 |
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| schestowitz | http://tycheent.wordpress.com/2008/12/28/... | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/29/linux... | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | Jan Stedehouder writes: "The TomTom news is old again. The company isn’t hiding it’s use of Linux, but offers the source code of the various components on it’s website: | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.tomtom.com/page.php?Page=gpl | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | In 2004 this was already settled in a case with GPL Violations: | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://gpl-violations.org/news/20041... | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| schestowitz | It’s desktop software is Windows- and Mac-only, which is a shame actually. " | Feb 26 16:23 |
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| avuton | Aah | Feb 26 16:26 |
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| avuton | All I know is a buddy got MPD running on it :) | Feb 26 16:26 |
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| balzac | Roy, I've looked further into the G1 with Android. | Feb 26 16:35 |
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| balzac | I know enough to know that I'm not interested in Android. | Feb 26 16:35 |
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| balzac | Android is Linux without GNU. Android is neutered. | Feb 26 16:36 |
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| balzac | But there's a guy who put a debian image into the G1 alongside Android, so you can run the GNU user-space in a G1. | Feb 26 16:37 |
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| balzac | That's what I'm going to do, because I like the G1 hardware. | Feb 26 16:37 |
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| schestowitz | Is it sold at a loss? | Feb 26 16:37 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, open_Isaac | Feb 26 16:38 |
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| balzac | yes | Feb 26 16:38 |
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| balzac | They want you to buy the developer version for $400 | Feb 26 16:38 |
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| balzac | but I'll take the regular G1 $180 with T-mobile contract (same hardware) and unlock it myself. | Feb 26 16:38 |
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| MinceR | can the gnu userspace access the phone, gps and PIM data stored by android? | Feb 26 16:38 |
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| zoobab01 | G1 = Linux castration by Google | Feb 26 16:39 |
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| balzac | MinceR: well, you'll have a root account and tools like grep, nano, and openssh | Feb 26 16:39 |
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| balzac | inside the debian image | Feb 26 16:39 |
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| balzac | and set the debian to run a vnc server and then log into that from your android vnc client, so you can easily switch between android and debian by pressing the home button | Feb 26 16:40 |
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| balzac | MinceR: the GPS, PIM data - I don't know. It would take someone more capable than myself to figure that out. | Feb 26 16:41 |
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| balzac | But to have a full GNU/Linux environment inside a nice phone like the G1 is something I can't resist. | Feb 26 16:42 |
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| MinceR | i think it's an important aspect of openness to be able to make actual use of the hardware. | Feb 26 16:42 |
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| balzac | Also, G1 has multi-touch, but it's not enabled so as not to provoke a lawsuit from Apple. | Feb 26 16:42 |
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| MinceR | i wonder how well X runs on such devices | Feb 26 16:42 |
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| balzac | I've seen screenshots of X on the G1 | Feb 26 16:43 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: full desktops run on it | Feb 26 16:43 |
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| schestowitz | Even kde4 runs on G1, IIRC | Feb 26 16:43 |
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| schestowitz | Looks nice, too. | Feb 26 16:43 |
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| schestowitz | Lemmie find... | Feb 26 16:43 |
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| schestowitz | Gnome, KDE, IceWM or LXDE Desktop on your Android! < http://www.androidfanatic.com/cms/communit... > | Feb 26 16:44 |
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| balzac_ | http://www.androidfanatic.com/cms/com... | Feb 26 16:44 |
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| balzac_ | http://www.ryebrye.com/blog/2008/11/1... | Feb 26 16:45 |
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| balzac_ | http://www.saurik.com/id/10 | Feb 26 16:45 |
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| balzac | saurik has an irc server set up: irc.saurik.com | Feb 26 16:45 |
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| balzac | he's got a channel in there called #android | Feb 26 16:46 |
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| MinceR | and how fast is it through that vnc hack? | Feb 26 16:46 |
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| balzac | I don't know | Feb 26 16:46 |
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| balzac | rybrye is the guy who discovered the latent multi-touch capabilities | Feb 26 16:47 |
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| balzac | so, it looks pretty juicy... | Feb 26 16:47 |
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| balzac | Also, such nice hardware is just begging for a full GNU/Linux distro to colonize it. | Feb 26 16:48 |
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| balzac | I just don't have any interest in Linux without GNU (Android), yet I am interested in GNU without Linux. | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| schestowitz | Why not FreeRunner? | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| schestowitz | More expensive, sure. | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| balzac | clunky hardware. No keyboard. | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| schestowitz | Not GoogleShop(R) with DRM-enabled stuff | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| balzac | I must have a keyboard. The touch-screen is a deal-killer for me. I hate the iPhone for just that reason. | Feb 26 16:49 |
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| balzac | I like touch-screen, but I can't stand having no keyboard. | Feb 26 16:50 |
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| balzac | The G1 has the nicest keyboard I've yet seen on a phone. | Feb 26 16:50 |
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| balzac | Roy, this can be construed as an action challenging android on its own hardware. | Feb 26 16:51 |
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| balzac | If the OpenMoko comes forth with a keyboard, I'll look again. I just don't care for the hardware. | Feb 26 16:51 |
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| balzac | I really like that OpenMoko has open hardware specs. That is awesome. But let's see a more advanced hardware design. | Feb 26 16:52 |
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| schestowitz | Chipmaker Dumps Employees, Bumps Exec$ < http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/chipma... >. Many good links there. | Feb 26 16:54 |
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| balzac | I would volunteer to use some free CAD software to help re-design the OpenMoko, but I'm not going to get the FreeRunner without a keyboard and with such a clunky design. | Feb 26 16:55 |
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| schestowitz | I wonder if Novell will announce the firing of 25% of its workforce tonight | Feb 26 16:55 |
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| balzac | hopefully | Feb 26 16:55 |
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| schestowitz | There's an article about the CEO now. | Feb 26 16:56 |
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| balzac | and hopefully there'll be lots of disgruntled workers who were SUSE developers who help rescue the SUSE community from Novell. | Feb 26 16:56 |
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| schestowitz | Novell CEO's 2008 compensation was $6.9 million | Feb 26 16:56 |
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| schestowitz | http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090225/no... | Feb 26 16:56 |
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| schestowitz | 25 SUSE employees or so have just been fired. They would cost about 25x$70,000=$1.75m | Feb 26 16:58 |
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| schestowitz | So they could work for 4 years with a good wage at the expense of that "compensation" for Hovsepian | Feb 26 16:58 |
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| schestowitz | The managers are too busy 'worrying' about their boats, I suppose. | Feb 26 16:58 |
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| balzac | Too busy with Yacht Club meetings. | Feb 26 17:07 |
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| schestowitz | Is It Impossible For Hulu To Survive? < http://techdirt.com/articles/2... > | Feb 26 17:13 |
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| schestowitz | If Flash player was made open source, this patch could be delivered a lot more simply: http://www.techtree.com/India/News/Adob... | Feb 26 17:17 |
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| MinceR | and it could be made to run efficiently | Feb 26 17:21 |
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| balzac | Too late for Flash | Feb 26 17:22 |
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| balzac | HTML 5 and Firefox are leaving Flash behind | Feb 26 17:23 |
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| MinceR | sadly, web developers aren't | Feb 26 17:23 |
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| schestowitz | Haha!! | Feb 26 17:27 |
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| schestowitz | Vista7 delayed | Feb 26 17:27 |
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| schestowitz | 2010 | Feb 26 17:27 |
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| schestowitz | I told youi! | Feb 26 17:27 |
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| schestowitz | "Windows 7 is scheduled to ship in early 2010." --CNN http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/... | Feb 26 17:28 |
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| avuton | They've never released on time iirc | Feb 26 17:28 |
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| balzac | teehee | Feb 26 17:40 |
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| schestowitz | The bigger cash cow, Office, has just been delayed also | Feb 26 17:44 |
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| schestowitz | http://linuxmednews.com/1235605037 : Yikes -- Health care overhaul: $646 billion [to be announced tomorrow] | Feb 26 17:56 |
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| schestowitz | So much noise about this proprietary software running on Ubuntu... http://www.prweb.com/releases/2009/02/prweb2184684.htm .. it's all over the press. Oracle too runs on Linux (Red Hat/variant), but no-one treats it like the Next Coming. | Feb 26 18:03 |
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| Balrog | hello everyone | Feb 26 18:20 |
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| schestowitz | Hey there. | Feb 26 18:25 |
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| schestowitz | I'm relying to a journalist :-D | Feb 26 18:25 |
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| schestowitz | I've read about 20 short articles about the news. | Feb 26 18:37 |
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| schestowitz | Just replying now.. | Feb 26 18:37 |
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| schestowitz | bbl | Feb 26 18:57 |
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| trmanco | http://www.rumblingedge.com/2009/02/26/t... | Feb 26 19:47 |
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| Balrog | schestowitz: this patent mess shows what MS *really* wants with mono and moonlight | Feb 26 20:00 |
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| trmanco | http://endsoftpatents.org/looking-at-micr... | Feb 26 20:04 |
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| trmanco | http://digg.com/linux_unix/Looking_at_Micro... | Feb 26 20:04 |
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| schestowitz | Nothing from Novell yet: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/del... | Feb 26 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: agreed. More Microsoft 'standards' inherent in Linux | Feb 26 21:10 |
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| Balrog | interesting | Feb 26 21:11 |
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| Balrog | I try compiling mono from SVN on my gentoo box | Feb 26 21:11 |
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| Balrog | and it crashes with a sigsegv in the make process | Feb 26 21:11 |
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| Balrog | I go ask at #mono (on the gnome irc network) | Feb 26 21:11 |
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| Balrog | and miguel says 'gentoo is eternally broken' | Feb 26 21:11 |
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| schestowitz | gentoo says "novell is eternally broken" | Feb 26 21:12 |
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| trmanco | no, that is Gentoo's AI working | Feb 26 21:15 |
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| trmanco | It knows when certain programs are malicious for the user, só Gentoo's AI crashes up what it can (in this case the build process) to protect the user | Feb 26 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: what's with THAT troll. "The "anti" here is a company attacking freedom. Don't confuse defender and offender (who makes new laws to protect abusive monopoly)." | Feb 26 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | trmanco: true, true.. it's like MS office | Feb 26 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft: Word 2007 crashes aren't a bug, they're a feature < http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do... > | Feb 26 21:18 |
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| trmanco | that is is job, to troll... | Feb 26 21:18 |
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| trmanco | he will get buried soon enough | Feb 26 21:18 |
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| schestowitz | We've just been references in CNET | Feb 26 21:18 |
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| schestowitz | *ed | Feb 26 21:19 |
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| trmanco | gr8 | Feb 26 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | brb | Feb 26 21:20 |
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| Balrog | where referenced? | Feb 26 21:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10172575-... | Feb 26 21:36 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02... (Teen sacked for 'boring' job Facebook comment) | Feb 26 21:39 |
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| trmanco | is it okay to forward a FSF message to an advocacy group? | Feb 26 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | Sure, why not? | Feb 26 21:42 |
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| trmanco | hmm, just wondering | Feb 26 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | Tibetan New Year Protests Around the World Today: Boycotting Losar. < http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/25... > | Feb 26 21:50 |
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| trmanco | posted,the FWD | Feb 26 21:51 |
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| trmanco | on cola | Feb 26 21:52 |
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| schestowitz | BBC Appoints Ex-Yahoo John Linwood as CTO - http://is.gd/kZ4r *Not* someone from Microsoft...anybody know anything about him? < http://twitter.com/glynmoody/statuses/1254379136 > | Feb 26 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | Mozilla Labs Meetup - London < http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/1852855/ > | Feb 26 21:54 |
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| trmanco | http://www.sofaraway.org/ubuntu/tmp/Chromium3.png | Feb 26 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.fsdaily.com/Opposition... | Feb 26 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | I've just gone to "about:robots" | Feb 26 21:59 |
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| schestowitz | My FF3 is just 6 days old, so.. | Feb 26 21:59 |
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| trmanco | what, you current build? | Feb 26 21:59 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I'll upgrade to 3.1 when it's out.Same with Thunderbird, which is the app I probably use the most | Feb 26 22:00 |
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| trmanco | yeah, I'm also waiting for the bird | Feb 26 22:01 |
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| schestowitz | "Blasting Nvidia, in the spirit of low-level tit-for-tat we have become accustomed to this week, Otellini asked, "If you don't have a microprocessor, what else do you have to sell?", implying that running a computer on a GPU alone was about as sensible as using chopsticks to eat yoghurt." | Feb 26 22:01 |
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| trmanco | lol | Feb 26 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | The Intel criminal (bribery, destruction of evidence, OLPC sabotage etc.) is attacking nvidia again: Blasting Nvidia, in the spirit of low-level tit-for-tat we have become accustomed to this week, Otellini asked, "If you don't have a microprocessor, what else do you have to sell?", implying that running a computer on a GPU alone was about as sensible as using chopsticks to eat yoghurt. | Feb 26 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | Oops. Link: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/ne... | Feb 26 22:02 |
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| schestowitz | NOVL is going to drop the axe | Feb 26 22:09 |
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| schestowitz | Just in: Novell Q1 earnings fall http://www.reuters.com/article/marke... | Feb 26 22:09 |
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| schestowitz | Novell Q1 EPS falls - Quick Facts http://www.rttnews.com/Content/QuickFac... &Category=Quick Facts | Feb 26 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | Novell 1Q Net Down 36% On Lower Interest Income; Revenue Down http://www.easybourse.com/bourse-actualite/m... | Feb 26 22:11 |
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| jose | schestowitz, see one of the last comments http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.p... .. dated February 26 2009 5:24 PMPDT | Feb 26 22:26 |
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| jose | An angle I have not much thought about is Novell positioning themselves to get bought by MS or by IBM. | Feb 26 22:27 |
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| jose | >> I would not be too surprised if Red Hat, Sun, and Novell are desired as (real or effective) subsidiaries by Microsoft and by IBM. Along the way, various of these players (and other proxies) might partake in a gobbling orgy. Also scooped up will be existing FOSS assets unrelated to these. In this world, Novell can play IBM against Microsoft. They don't care where they end up. [Significantly, as well, Google and Microsoft might hav | Feb 26 22:27 |
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| jose | e their eyes set on each others' proprietary assets.] | Feb 26 22:27 |
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| jose | I'll note that Microsoft is uncompromising and super ambitious. As I write they are likely ripping Novell's channel (and credibility) out from under them since this is cheaper&surer. | Feb 26 22:27 |
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| jose | MS also would trust very little, so that have much to gain by hollowing out Novell before Novell gains too much of anything. | Feb 26 22:29 |
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| jose | why take risks | Feb 26 22:29 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, jose | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| jose | Schestowitz, I wanted to point that out. I shouldn't hang around here too long. Already spent much more time than expected posting to that thread. | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| jose | hey | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, it makes some sense | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | But IBM is already using SUSE | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | It helps Novell buy SUSE | Feb 26 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | To keep Red Hat from getting too strong | Feb 26 22:33 |
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| schestowitz | IBM endorsed the MS patent deal also | Feb 26 22:33 |
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| schestowitz | Give me a moment to write about Novell's terrible results. | Feb 26 22:33 |
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| schestowitz | Speed counts. | Feb 26 22:33 |
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| jose | ibm has always supported novell's moves.. the two have been in proximity in various ways. | Feb 26 22:33 |
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| jose | ok, i'll stay on for a while longer. | Feb 26 22:34 |
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| jose | ibm would like novell as a defensive move against Microsoft. in the meantime novell might be a proxy. | Feb 26 22:35 |
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| jose | ibm has no prob with patent deals or with deals of any kind. | Feb 26 22:35 |
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| jose | novell would likely be playing for themselves though. they could live as a close part of a proprietary monopoly | Feb 26 22:35 |
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| jose | i think novell is a threat | Feb 26 22:35 |
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| jose | so much lack of trust | Feb 26 22:36 |
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| jose | no one trusts anyone else.. that's how that world works.. | Feb 26 22:36 |
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| jose | while these companies play their chess match.. | Feb 26 22:37 |
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| jose | i don't want foss to suffer | Feb 26 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | I'll post it now while I edit | Feb 26 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | So that you see it | Feb 26 22:37 |
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| jose | not the marcel gagne piece i take it.. i'll wait. | Feb 26 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | jose: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/... | Feb 26 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | I'm still removing typos. Let me know if you find some. | Feb 26 22:46 |
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| jose | One of our readers said one hours ago that he tried | Feb 26 22:49 |
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| jose | one hour | Feb 26 22:49 |
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| schestowitz | I found 3 more typos. Looks better now.. | Feb 26 22:53 |
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| schestowitz | Preston Gralla is already spinning the Office 14 disaster for Microsoft | Feb 26 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | "It's not MS incompetence, it's the economy" (or something like that) | Feb 26 22:56 |
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| jose | what was the disaster? revenue numbers for it? or quality? ? | Feb 26 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | Delay (one year) | Feb 26 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | ALso, while you were away.. it turned out that Vista7 is delayed also | Feb 26 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | "2010," they say now :-) | Feb 26 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft's stock is at the bottom low | Feb 26 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | $16.42 at close < http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=msft > | Feb 26 22:59 |
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| jose | i was also going to suggest "delay" but felt that fell under "quality" since that means it will stink badly when the original date comes up. | Feb 26 22:59 |
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| schestowitz | They could release turd early | Feb 26 23:01 |
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| schestowitz | Vista 7 will suffer either way, but they know that they might as well not make it semi baked | Feb 26 23:02 |
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| schestowitz | You nicked someone's nick | Feb 26 23:02 |
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| jose__ | jose is probably reserved i guess | Feb 26 23:02 |
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| jose__ | i'm going to get back to some other things.. | Feb 26 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | Reserved. Sounds like a restaurant terminology. | Feb 26 23:06 |
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| schestowitz | Novell at the top-left here: http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/02/state... | Feb 26 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-nov-feb.h... " Jack Straw, who surely played a major role in B'liar's decision to join the invasion of Iraq, has used his current powers to conceal how that decision was made. This is known as "obstruction of justice" when anyone else does it. " | Feb 26 23:21 |
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| schestowitz | Gah! "That UK offical must have been takng to Rahm Emanuel - i./e., let no good opportunity go to waste. The plan sounds good on the surface, but amounts to an un-needed preference. A bailout of sorts. F/OSS can stand on its own, without "no stinking badges."" http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.p... | Feb 26 23:26 |
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| schestowitz | *LOL* | Feb 26 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | Byfield wrote Go-OOO (three Os) http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/... he also dismisses BN as the "anti-Novell lobby" (his new word since last article) | Feb 26 23:29 |
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| MinceR | gn | Feb 26 23:29 |
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| MinceR | watch out, he'll come back and complain about you pointing that out ;) | Feb 26 23:30 |
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| [H]omer | Roy ... FYI: https://wiki.blagblagblag.org/M... | Feb 26 23:31 |
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| [H]omer | Marathon six hour meeting in progress | Feb 26 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | "(07:23:57 PM) Homer: Agenda: packages ... what to add, what to depreciate (e.g. Mono)" | Feb 26 23:36 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: as an obvious remark, consider the fact that the FAT/TomTom case now serves you as ammunition against Mono, especially the FAT part. | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| [H]omer | Natch :) | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| [H]omer | link? | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | Hold on. | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| [H]omer | I've not been following | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standard... | Feb 26 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | In short, Microsoft is suing TomTom for its support for FAT in Linux. | Feb 26 23:38 |
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| schestowitz | Cronies shuffle: http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/bentley/ch... | Feb 26 23:49 |
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| schestowitz | Huh? Seed Design Series - Open Source Snobs < http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2... > | Feb 26 23:53 |
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| schestowitz | "Symbiam Foundation" has become a new name and "front" to Nokia (attacking rivals without the attacks tracing back to Nokia): http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz... | Feb 26 23:56 |
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| wispygalaxy | hi everyone! | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| Balrog | where is the source code? (for symbian) I asked already, but if it's open source, there has to be publically available source. | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| Balrog | Hi wispygalaxy | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| wispygalaxy | hey, nice to meet you | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| wispygalaxy | is roy here? | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| Balrog | yes he is | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| wispygalaxy | ok, thx | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| Balrog | or hw was 3 minutes ago :P | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| Balrog | he * | Feb 26 23:58 |
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| wispygalaxy | yes, he's been busy these days ;) | Feb 26 23:59 |
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| wispygalaxy | working hard on his posts | Feb 26 23:59 |
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