IRC: #techbytes @ FreeNode: Monday, May 03, 2021

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-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Linux is junk, but #GPL is for ever https://neritam.wordpress.com/2019/12/09/linux-is-junk-but-gpl-is-for-ever/

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes--> neritam.wordpress.com | Linux is junk, but GPL is for ever – neritam

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Linux Torvalds

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sigh.

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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I love and greatly respect Stallman and some of his devotees but are they still miffed over the fact that Linus eclipsed their microkernel? Sheesh! That said, 50-100 years in computing is incomprehensibly HUGE. We appear to be at the crack of dawn of quantum computing and what far-reaching sea changes will occur after even 10 years is impossible to guesstimate. 100? Fuggeddabottit!

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com - about a year ago

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but are they still miffed over the fact that Linus eclipsed their microkernel?

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they never were.

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linux is a great kernel-- if i wanted the hurd so badly, id go buy a 486 and put it on there.

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the butthurt is that gnu spent 10 years putting together an entire operating system to free us from corporations that wanted a monopoly on our computing, and some teenager from helsinki took all of it and used it to create something he could use to put his hand up their shirt.

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years later, google is still doing it. you think this is just about the name? its about the entire legacy being #openwashed ffs. its about rebranding everything that came before linux as “linux” and using it not to promote the freedom it was created for, but to exploit it as cheap labour. im pretty sure if youd gone to the trouble of creating gnu for the purpose it was created for, youd be pissed as well. he didnt eclipse the gnu

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kernel-- he eclipsed the entire freaking os, which he never wrote. he eclipsed the entire free software movement with his open source (now) ponzi scheme. you wouldnt be bothered by that, if you were the author of gnu?

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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Hello freemedia. I get what you mean but I respectfully disagree. How can one stand up for freedom against proprietary yet be pissed off when somebody actually uses that freedom, not to overtly hurt anyone, but out of respect for the shoulders you stand on and the ability, now, to take it even higher? Man that’s just “Life in the Big City”. I’m calloused against that kind of stuff from spending most of my life in and around

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the Music Biz and where even the rich pros will tell you, “It’s not a meritocracy”. There’s plenty of artists who were absolute breakthrough creative that you and I never heard of and who died in poverty and anonymity excepting a few who got a glimpse of something unique and special and carried it on. It has happened in every field and will likely till the end of time ';cuz that’s just how the Universe works. That’s no

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reason to cave to hypocrisy in my book.

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BTW my remark about The Hurd vs/ the Linux kernel is from my understanding that the kernel was the biggest obstacle that turned 3 years into 10,prevented the Gnu OS release, and ultimately never did really get it right until it’s time had long passed. I wish they had succeeded but “them’s the breaks”, right?

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com - about a year ago

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How can one stand up for freedom against proprietary yet be pissed off when somebody actually uses that freedom, not to overtly hurt anyone, but out of respect

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thats a totally hypothetical question, because that isnt at all what happened.

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thats the story of what happened, though the reality is a bit different.

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lets just take one example for starters:

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not to overtly hurt anyone, but out of respect

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recently, bruce perens said that esr and tim o’reilly tried to cancel stallman two decades ago. perens was against it.

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you cant call that “respect”-- open source is co-opting.

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now, i dont expect you to agree, i get that, but i was an open source guy originally. i became increasingly aware that history was being rewritten to make open source seem more important and more of a success on its own merit, and i got out of it because its a lot of corporate bs.

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if you look around, that bs is culminating in microsoft owning and controlling more and more of our ecosystem: http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Delete_Github

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-Could not resolve host: techrights.org; Unknown error ( status 0 @ http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Delete_Github )

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including 78% of fdroid.org apps: http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Delete_Android_Apps_on_Github

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-techrights.org | Delete Android Apps on Github - Techrights

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open source has done terrible harm and loads of people know it. of those, some have the dubious job of not admitting it, but it isnt a story free software made up because it was bored or lonely.

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the real history has nothing to do with your premise. its that simple. if we cant even agree on a premise, theres no reasonable debate we can have here-- we simply live in different worlds, and at least one of those worlds is a fiction.

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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Please do illustrate the connection between Linus developing his kernel and succeeding where Stallman et al failed as to. how do you conflate ESR and Perens to that event? Perens even according to you didn’t disrespect Stallman and what can anyone expect from ESR? I loved Cathedral and Bazaar but ESR is a whacko. Did you ever see the film “Revolution OS” where he egotistically brags about actually telling an MS employee when

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asked who he was, responded. “Your worst nightmare”? I mean seriously? That reminds me of the joke about the height of self delusion being "personified by a flea floating down a river on his back with an erection squeaking “Raise the drawbridge!” In that same film Stallman castigates Linus in public by basically personifying The Empire while Gnu personifies Han Solo, another kind of self-serving delusion. Stallman was the

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first and therefore most important first man in a relay race but he wasn’t and isn’t the whole team, and he’s butthurt he didn’t grab the glory.

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Much more importantly how the Hell do you state FOSS has done “terrible harm” and only hint that “loads of people know it”. Where’s your examples, your evidence? Your “used to be open source guy” reminds me of religious fanatics that claim to be drug addled atheists who finally “found The Lord” when really it’s just convenient lying with a long history in all organize religion. You strike me as a troll spreading

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FUD to undermine extremely successful FOSS, so you’re right. Just as HAL 9000 said “This conversation serves no further purpose” . Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself in either case, true background Betrayer or lying Troll.

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com - about a year ago

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You strike me as a troll spreading FUD to undermine extremely successful FOSS, so you’re right. Just as HAL 9000 said “This conversation serves no further purpose” . Furthermore you should be ashamed of yourself in either case, true background Betrayer or lying Troll.

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well, guess what? its all documented and ive already written books and articles about this stuff. ive talked about how torvalds slandered free software in favour of open source since the freaking 90s, and trying to turn his own betrayal into mine for not licking his balls over a legacy he stole is completely unimpressive to me.

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i had already ignored you on other forums, enorbet. im ignoring you on this one, and you can tell everyone and his mother im a troll. i dont need YOUR dishonest, trolling ass to help promote historical facts anybody can look up for themselves if they dont believe me, im doing that perfectly alright without your help. ciao.

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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With all due respect, freemedia, how can you call it “stolen” and “free” in the same breath? Furthermore how can you call my words or character dishonest when it is simply my opinion based on what I’ve read? I’m certainly not typing untruths to deceive you or anyone as to my position on this matter. Whatever would be the point of that?

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You’ve written books and articles but cannot post one piece of evidence supporting your claim here? I assure you if I find that I am mistaken or have misjudged the people or the situation I have no problem refining my POV. I don’t really have a dog in this race beyond being disgusted by someone referring to Linux, a multi billion dollar OpSys that supports more hardware from lowly embedded to super computers and server farms than

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any other on the planet, as “junk”. Can’t you admit that is just a wee bit over-the-top?

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Regarding you ignoring me, AFAIK we are only mutually on one other Forum (not forums) which I didn’t realize until you brought it up. Subsequently I did a search to see where and how we conflicted and frankly we seemed to agree quite a bit and in the past year at least I didn’t see any major conflicts at all, but, hey, if something in my manner routinely triggers you and you feel the need to bow out, do what you feel is right.

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com - about a year ago

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if something in my manner routinely triggers you and you feel the need to bow out, do what you feel is right.

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ok one quibble-- you bowed out as far as i can tell. and if youre going to call me a troll and a liar then bowing out is alright with me. and as far as “triggered” i just dont want to deal with a bullshitter. you didnt ask for evidence, you demanded it as if i was making shit up. so… no, i was far too busy to care about very rude demands and accusations.

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im not pretending to be the bigger person here, we can be both be rude. i often dont shy away from that if someone else chooses to be. but as long as we are still talking for a minute, heres my problem with the status quo:

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public domain doesnt mean free to plagiarise. and what torvalds did isnt necessarily plagiarism strictly speaking, but it wasnt honest in my opinion.

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you want evidence of a long-standing trend of linus torvalds and “open source” taking all the credit for gnu/linux and smearing stallman and all free software supporters over the course of more than 20 years. thats ridiculous-- you can watch him doing it in revolution os, you can find the quote where he called us all “extremists” and about “hate” just because the philosophical position is a little less nuanced (muddled,

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corporate) than his own. you can find phipps mocking stallmans autism as the reason he doesnt cede his own position to the corporate compromise that comes later. actually that one is long gone, due to a database crash.

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its a very long and bothersome legacy of taking all the credit, rewriting history and then smearing the people who should have credit. torvalds smeared every free software advocate in the world, in one feel swoop, simply for not toeing the corporate line as he did. that was dirty, and dishonest. jim zemlin has done to him what open source did to free software-- take credit and sell him out. what betrayal open source started, under

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zemlin the linux foundation has taken a step further, pulling “open source” even closer to monopoly-friendly.

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but regardless, you go and reduce this to being a. about eclipsing the hurd kernel and b. (as is very common) just about what name we use.

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the gnu name isnt for the sake of the name itself.

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its for the sake of people always having a reminder that this operating system was written so you can have freedom.

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that wasnt the purpose of the linux kernel, and it shows. the real reason the linux kernel was created was to save linus a walk in the snow. that is a perfectly good reason to write a kernel, but torvalds did not create an operating system even if he set out to. he wrote a really great kernel (not as technologically elegant as bsd, but what it lacks in elegance it really does make up for in sheer practicality) and he stole an entire

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project to make people free.

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if you think what torvalds did to gnu is morally acceptable because the license allowed it, try that shit in academia. i have no horse in that race, but this was my point about premises:

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we cant agree on a premise, which means the rest of the argument is moot. in an argument, the premise never ever changes. the premise is constant throughout the argument.

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so if we are arguing from different premises, we will literally never get anywhere. the only point in such an argument is to make our points to other people who may stop by, and get out. because we wont get anywhere with talking to each other. its a lost cause, unless someone simply changes their mind. and thats rare enough. i dont know why you think i owe torvalds anything, as far as shit-talking goes, he started it. and i havent

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said anything untrue as far as i know.

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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Now that I know a bit more about who you are because of your track record of posts elsewhere, it seems we are getting acclimated to a more civil conversation so lewt’s explore that a little. Let’s not assume we know what each other thinks the premise is. Initially the premise was, in my mind, was Linux is junk, yay or nay?.. and I say “Nay” while you say, “Yay”. The premise is the same but we are on opposite poles about

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it’s accuracy.

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I’m confidant you are quite aware of Linus’s earliest newsgroup messages as well as his surprise even years later that Linux got as big as it did. He offered it up for free to download as just some little weekend hack that worked pretty good. That doesn’t feel like theft to me nor does if feel at all corporate or seeking of corporate approval or usage, let alone monopoly. In my view while some offshoot of Linux could become

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monopolized, much like Apple did with BSD, it seems to me impossible to “put the toothpaste back in the tube”. Maybe development would slow to a crawl if IBM, MS, or some consortium tried to monopolize it but so what? There would still be a FOSS Linux much like the early days.

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I just don’t see the gloom and doom that you seem to believe in, and I don’t see Linus as some thief. It seems to me that just like your position now, Stallman and buddies have always been hurt that Linus beat them to the punch and instead of being good sports about it, have whined and groused from the jump. In Revolution OS I can see that Linus is stand-offish but I can also see why. If you designed a new engine started by a hand

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crank and couldn’t get it to start and you published your design and someone else tried it but with an electric starter and it ran is that theft? Would you be angry and hurt even though you put it out in public and raved every chance you had about how freedom and sharing are so important to you?

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By the way when a patent is up and becomes public domain it exactly means it is available to copy, own, distribute, and use as one sees fit. End of story, and that’s regarding something that ever was proprietary and protected. Even Compaq reverse-engineering IBM was not considered theft by the courts though that seems stretching law to the breaking point to me.

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I don’t see differing premises. I see different points of view on the same premise. At base, I contend Linux is not junk and Linus is not a thief. You apparently hold the opposite to be valid. To each his own, right?

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com

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freemedia@share.naturalnews.com - about a year ago

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#premisesdontchange

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Initially the premise was, in my mind, was Linux is junk, yay or nay?.. and I say “Nay” while you say, “Yay”.

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well first of all, i didnt write that post. as far as i know, everything on neritam.wordpress.com is written by jagadees.s and while he and i do talk, i disagree with a lot of what he says. i mean he just called linus “linux torvalds.” if thats muscle memory alright, but imo he makes a few valid points and says a number of things i consider non-factual or otherwise in error.

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so thats a good place to start-- i never said linux is junk. i consider it a kernel, i think its a kernel primarily, and if theres any dispute as to what it is, everyone agrees that a kernel is part of it. i dont think he stole that, and i think its quite a good kernel really. people frequently talk about switching to bsd, and i tell them a linux fork is both more likely and more practical. but i have nothing against bsd per se.

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I’m confidant you are quite aware of Linus’s earliest newsgroup messages as well as his surprise even years later that Linux got as big as it did.

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oh yes.

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He offered it up for free to download as just some little weekend hack that worked pretty good. That doesn’t feel like theft

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no no no, any accusations come later-- not in the beginning. the beginning was fine. whether he feigned modesty to start or abandoned it later, i think either is a possibility, i do not think he ever dreamed of “taking over” though. but i dont buy that he is simply a victim of success. i mean that doesnt stop him from being more honest, as if he has no say in the matter.

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to me nor does if feel at all corporate or seeking of corporate approval or usage, let alone monopoly.

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initially? i would agree. at the stage, i really doubt anybody knew the future. but then if you watch revolution os (an imperfect documentary but one of the less ridiculous ones imo) linux (in whatever context you like) went up like a rocket. the modesty didnt (and to some degree, at least, couldnt) last.

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In my view while some offshoot of Linux could become monopolized, much like Apple did with BSD, it seems to me impossible to “put the toothpaste back in the tube”.

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i would agree if i based it purely on assumptions and likelihood. if i go by recent history though, i cant agree.

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Maybe development would slow to a crawl if IBM, MS, or some consortium tried to monopolize it but so what?

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so quite a lot. i dont expect you to be familiar with what ive spent the past couple years saying, and it wasnt mostly about ibm, but i did predict the red hat purchased and to me its a huge deal. not only in theory but in the results we are watching unfold.

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and though i blame torvalds for his part in this, ultimately he is going to have it taken away from him as well. thats where the linux foundation comes in, as well as gkh (or worse.) torvalds isnt king anymore, he will get a very nice severance (his house is lovely, its certainly nothing compared to where bill gates lives but what is?) but hes going to live a normal life, not on a throne. im sure hes fine with that, but i suspect he

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is also started to realise he got played. we dont have to agree on that either, im letting you know where im coming from on this.

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There would still be a FOSS Linux much like the early days.

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foss, perhaps. not much like the early days, no. this is not going to be all progress or tradition, or even all positive. and i wonder how anybody could think it will be.

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I just don’t see the gloom and doom that you seem to believe in, and I don’t see Linus as some thief.

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i got that part.

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It seems to me that just like your position now, Stallman and buddies have always been hurt that Linus beat them to the punch and instead of being good sports about it,

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but again-- your conclusion assumes they were trying to the same thing, and linus “got there first.”

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youre really missing the point of what stallman was trying to do, which is why you dont understand the real problem they/i have with linus.

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they werent trying to do the same thing at all. linus’s dishonesty and self-aggrandising hurt something only stallman was trying to do, that linus didnt care about. if linus had simply achieved the same goal and taken the credit for everything that led up to it, that would be rotten. but insodoing he hurt the actual goal-- he did NOT “get there” at all.

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the goal was to create user freedom, and the operating system (including a kernel0 was the means to do that.

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and the way that torvalds let people give him the credit for everything leading up to the kernel-- the gnu project, the gpl license, the nearly ten years of development of everything EXCEPT the kernel, just to make all of it about something other than freedom–

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thats the problem. you literally made it about how he had beaten stallman to his stupid hurd kernel (its a brilliant kernel, but the design is wildly impractical. it was the coding time equivalent of a money pit. not great! but there was no rush, it wasnt a race.)

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people really think linus won a race. but if anybody had come along and written a free kernel while gnu was working on it, thats fine. overshadowing the gnu project is the issue-- not beating stallman to the kernel. but no matter how many times i say that, you go and make it about how he beat stallman to the kernel again. i dunno what to do tell, we dont care about that all. there was no race (that im aware of. point me to evidence

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there was a race and ill read it with interest.)

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whined and groused from the jump.

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see thats unfair. this is fictional, what youre creating. i keep saying what mattered to us, you keep demanding something else mattered.

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you think i dont know what part of this is important? i mean when i say the part that actually matters, it ought to sound a hell of a lot more substantial and meaningful than the petty horseshit youre accusing your opponents of, but you wont hear the other side of the argument-- the part that says what actually matters to us.

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your whole argument literally revolves around telling us that you know what matters to us and WE DONT.

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thats a huge freaking strawman, and i cant get you to put it down. so who are we kidding here?

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In Revolution OS I can see that Linus is stand-offish but I can also see why. If you designed a new engine started by a hand crank and couldn’t get it to start and you published your design and someone else tried it but with an electric starter and it ran is that theft?

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thats not the problem though. the problem is he rebranded the entire freaking car after sticking another engine in it.

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if thats the metaphor we are using, that wouldnt fly in the real world. you cant just stick a different engine in a car and pretend you invented the entire thing, and have that be your legacy. thats bullshit.

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Would you be angry and hurt even though you put it out in public and raved every chance you had about how freedom and sharing are so important to you?

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again, the questions youre asking are false analogies and strawman. its more patience than most reasonable people would show you than to keep entertaining this drivel.

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By the way when a patent is up and becomes public domain it exactly means it is available to copy, own, distribute, and use as one sees fit. End of story,

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also irrelevant! what youre doing here is stating an indisputable fact, and implying that it proves something else that is disputed-- youve done that several times, and its not impressive.

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and that’s regarding something that ever was proprietary and protected. Even Compaq reverse-engineering IBM was not considered theft by the courts though that seems stretching law to the breaking point to me.

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i agree! compaq practically got away with murder. the only principle i can think of that might get them off the hook in the first place (and this is also a stretch!) is that the rest of the industry rose up to defend their “right” to do this, and due to antitrust (which is a nice concept imo but in terms of a logical basis almost seems like a limitation on “how much you can win at free enterprise” for better or worse.) is that

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not everything is patentable either

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due to antitrust and perhaps some other things, the courts can very nearly come along and say “ok buddy, you have too much of the market and youll have to share-- even if it means just giving away some of your shit.”

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in other words if they can do that to at&t why not to ibm? but your point about what compaq got away with (even if im glad they did) – i agree with that.

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I don’t see differing premises. I see different points of view on the same premise.

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thats probably because every time i tell you that youre wrong about what WE THINK (we as in free software advocates) you go right back to telling me WE THINK something else.

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every time i point out the flaw in your premise, you ignore it and return immediately to YOUR premise.

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sure if you ignore the difference, you wont think there is one, LOL…

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At base, I contend Linux is not junk

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i didnt say it was junk.

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and Linus is not a thief.

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we dont have to agree on that.

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You apparently hold the opposite to be valid. To each his own, right?

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you can say that again!

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enorbet2@diasp.org

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enorbet2@diasp.org - about a year ago

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While I dislike that you still sound civil one moment and condescending and dismissive the next, I also realize that is partly my fault and just desserts from my initial misjudgment and accusations to you based on that… but at least we have some progress. So let’s deal with this premise. Where is some evidence that Linus ever tried to take the credit for GPL?

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One more item, re: the car invention analogy. We aren’t talking about a completed and working auto that someone merely substituted a different engine and rebranded. We are talking about a Proto Auto, where it is some kind of first and it doesn’t all work. It is not a finished product. THEN someone picks up the pieces and alters a base design component, literally the one that makes the difference between an immobile object of

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little use to a working, driveable transport. That certainly can and has many times been considered as the first identifiable complete device and it seems analogous to the story of Gnu and Linux. That’s why I go back to the kernel since as you already agree Linux IS the kernel. Everything else is just peripheral.

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So what do you see as the flaw in my premise?

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