●● IRC: #techbytes @ Techrights IRC Network: Tuesday, December 21, 2021 ●● ● Dec 21 [00:49] *leah has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [00:49] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [01:09] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@t25x9hgy9xhrc.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [02:02] *u-amarsh04 has quit (connection closed) ● Dec 21 [03:26] *leah has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [03:26] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [04:48] schestowitz x https://itwire.com/freelancer-sp-720/the-rising-threat-of-business-email-compromise-attacks-presents-opportunities-for-msps.html [04:48] schestowitz # ad dressed up as an article; [04:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-itwire.com | iTWire - The rising threat of business email compromise attacks presents opportunities for MSPs [04:48] schestowitz # the weakest link in "security" are the M$ products in the work place [04:48] schestowitz = [04:48] schestowitz x https://broadbandbreakfast.com/2021/12/open-ran-technology-could-play-key-role-in-narrowing-digital-divide/ [04:48] schestowitz # open standards are not "generic" [04:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-broadbandbreakfast.com | Open RAN Technology Could Play Key Role in Narrowing Digital Divide : Broadband Breakfast ● Dec 21 [05:05] *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [05:07] *DaemonFC (~daemonfc@hrtihjfuwwjea.irc) has joined #techbytes [05:14] *GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) ● Dec 21 [06:05] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@2h2f3rha8wtcu.irc) has joined #techbytes [06:33] *DaemonFC has quit (Quit: Leaving) ● Dec 21 [07:32] *leah has quit (connection closed) [07:32] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes [07:43] *GNUmoon2 has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [07:45] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@352gtcvzgz578.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [10:35] *leah has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [10:35] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes [10:42] *GNUmoon2 has quit (connection closed) [10:43] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@5qfh8ygvjx3sy.irc) has joined #techbytes [10:43] *GNUmoon2 has quit (Quit: Leaving) [10:44] *GNUmoon2 (~GNUmoon@svp6nvmiuarba.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [11:00] *DaemonFC (~daemonfc@hrtihjfuwwjea.irc) has joined #techbytes [11:54] *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) ● Dec 21 [12:31] *tech_exorcist (~tech_exorcist@7mdtygcjqhegu.irc) has joined #techbytes [12:33] *leah has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [12:33] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [13:01] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@t25x9hgy9xhrc.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:07] *tech_exorcist has quit (Quit: bbl) [13:35] *u-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) [13:35] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@t25x9hgy9xhrc.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:36] *leah has quit (Ping timeout: 2m30s) [13:37] *leah (~leah@wrh2nipuzrd3y.irc) has joined #techbytes [13:41] *tech_exorcist (~tech_exorcist@xbduyz4e2h7j6.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [15:09] *Despatche (~desp@u3xy9z2ifjzci.irc) has joined #techbytes [15:27] *u-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) [15:47] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@t25x9hgy9xhrc.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [16:26] *u-amarsh04 has quit (connection closed) [16:43] *u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@t25x9hgy9xhrc.irc) has joined #techbytes [16:45] schestowitz Christopher Fisher (@Christo_Gnarus): "When it turns out that "studies done are directed towards specific prescriptive outcomes then they aren't really Studies as much as they are proposals. Sort of like the SAGE models. https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1472968413295386632?s=20 http://techrights.org/2011/01/10/lancet-gates-exxon-mobil/" | nitter https://nitter.eu/Christo_ [16:45] schestowitz Gnarus/status/1473027625065107464 #nitter | more in http://schestowitz.com/2021/12/21/#latest [16:45] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-nitter.eu | Christian (@Christo_) | nitter [16:45] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-schestowitz.com | Social Control Media Posts [16:47] schestowitz https://twitter.com/ejb1893/status/1473204838712369158 [16:47] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@ejb1893: @schestowitz I'm in that pic....https://t.co/e49xDpE9gP [16:47] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@ejb1893: **CALL4JUSTICE** to send an email to Attorney General Garland please click below and select for topic: Messages to https://t.co/wiSsFfKcPF [16:48] schestowitz https://twitter.com/supercooldudet/status/1473170983234113536 [16:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@supercooldudet: #TheOnlyTerror https://t.co/utcBYE2ym9 https://t.co/vIr0SE3l2z [16:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@schestowitz: NEWS #Medforth WATCH: Migrant in #Sweden praises Islamic State during arrest https://t.co/wLEbN2AB8G [16:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@supercooldudet: #TheOnlyTerror https://t.co/utcBYE2ym9 https://t.co/vIr0SE3l2z [16:48] schestowitz https://twitter.com/moonstar6000/status/1473154240449323010 [16:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-@moonstar6000: @schestowitz Exciting! Join the chat and Thank me Later https://t.co/G62pJrrivN [16:48] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes--> t.me | Telegram: Contact @Nk0vrC2iVk1lMmI0 [16:49] schestowitz https://nitter.eu/GyroWaveGen_TM/status/1473010751325577228 #nitter | more in http://schestowitz.com/2021/12/21/#latest [16:49] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-nitter.eu | GyroGen(TM) (@GyroWaveGen_TM): "The problem is with issuing WAY too many patents in the first place. There should be more 'broad' patents but far fewer derivative ones! That's how things were done 100 years ago. Fewer patents, but much better & 'enforceable' ones (which also reduced the number of lawsuits)!" | nitter ● Dec 21 [17:37] *liberty_box has quit (Quit: Leaving) [17:37] *liberty_box (~liberty@suig26pxj59pi.irc) has joined #techbytes ● Dec 21 [18:13] *DaemonFC (~daemonfc@px6mkq46bqg6u.irc) has joined #techbytes [18:59] schestowitz http://patentblog.kluweriplaw.com/2021/12/16/upc-the-john-doe-of-patent-law/ [18:59] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-patentblog.kluweriplaw.com | UPC: The John Doe of Patent Law - Kluwer Patent Blog [18:59] schestowitz " [18:59] schestowitz Knoblauch [18:59] schestowitz DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 2:38 PM [18:59] schestowitz Paul Maier is planned to be the first President of the UPC [18:59] schestowitz Extraneous Attorney [18:59] schestowitz DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 3:18 PM [18:59] schestowitz There is another issue which has the potential to cause to quote Mr. Dhennes exact words the legitimacy and therefore the success of the future jurisdiction to suffer. [18:59] schestowitz That issue is that nobody knows whether the contemplated move of the London section of the Central Division to another location is even in accordance with law in the first place. [18:59] schestowitz If that is not the case, then whoever is the first to lose a huge amount of money in a case which should have been adjudicated before the London section could rush to the ECJ and argue that the decision was handed down illegally and is therefore null and void. It is hard to picture a rougher start for a fresh international court, is it not? [18:59] schestowitz IPfrog ● Dec 21 [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 4:53 PM [19:00] schestowitz i think for example 2, you can find an indication in articles 13/14 of the statute of the UPC [19:00] schestowitz perhaps its time to open the books ? [19:00] schestowitz Opaque business [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 5:43 PM [19:00] schestowitz I understand the problem with London being named in the UPC Agreement as a matter of international law of treaties, and may even sympathise with the view that there my have been some opaque business in recent times (BVerfG decisions on questions that werent asked, Declarations and the like) to get us here, but I honestly cannot see the issue of the London branch being a matter referred to the CJEU after the court has started. Why would the [19:00] schestowitz judges of the court (the greatest of respect to them, whoever they may be) refer a question undermining the validity of their own court, and under what provision of EU law given that it is based on an international agreement? Why would the CJEU (with the greatest of respect to the CJEU) make an adverse decision of such embarrassment to the EU, when politically the EU machinery is desperate for this court to get going? I am not an EU specialist and [19:00] schestowitz many who read this will know more than I do about EU law and procedures these are genuine questions. [19:00] schestowitz Extraneous Attorney [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 2:32 PM [19:00] schestowitz As a practical matter, I agree that the factors you mention may come into play. However, the point is that, in a union of democratic states ostensibly committed to the rule of law, they should not matter at all. If some official act has been performed contrary to law, then the competent judges must rule that said act is null and void, regardless of their personal views and interests, or of those of others. Otherwise we start making distinctions [19:00] schestowitz between situations in which the rule of law should not matter and situations and in which it should, and we all know thats a very slippery slope to start on. [19:00] schestowitz Concerned observer [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 7:41 PM [19:00] schestowitz Extraneous Attorney, I think that the point that Opaque business was trying to make is that there is a legal lacuna due to the international nature of the UPC. [19:00] schestowitz In essence, it may be that a lack of compliance with the rule of law will not elicit any consequences if the cracks between the national, EU and international legal systems means that any relevant complaints simply fall into a legal grey zone where no court will either acknowledge or claim competence. [19:00] schestowitz Extraneous Attorney [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 20, 2021 AT 6:03 PM [19:00] schestowitz Fair enough, I dont disagree. Perhaps I am being naive when I hope that all of this will make national parliaments a lot more reluctant to grant considerable legal power *and* immunity from suit to international organizations like the EPO or the UPC. [19:00] schestowitz Schnittlauch [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 8:35 PM [19:00] schestowitz @Knoblauch [19:00] schestowitz Maier might be in the running but he is by no means the only candidate: [19:00] schestowitz https://www.juve-patent.com/news-and-stories/people-and-business/upc-favourites-french-and-german-judges-dominate/ [19:00] schestowitz Ana Logan [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 18, 2021 AT 9:20 PM [19:00] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.juve-patent.com | UPC favourites: French and German judges dominate - JUVE Patent [19:00] schestowitz Judges are elected by Parliaments. Not in the UPC universe. [19:00] schestowitz Attentive Observer [19:00] schestowitz DECEMBER 19, 2021 AT 7:02 PM [19:00] schestowitz That it would be correct to know who will be the judges of the UPC, or who will be the first president, a Frenchman in any case, might be of concern, but is certainly not so vital and important than what will happen with the London Section of the Central Division. The selection criterion are also not known and like for the composition of the drafting committee of the rules of procedure, co-optation will most probably be the way of designation in [19:00] schestowitz spite of this duty being given to an Advisory Committee. . [19:00] schestowitz When the minimal conditions for ratification were set up, it was easy to find a rule which made it mandatory that in the end, the UK, Germany and France had to ratify the UPCA in order it to enter into force. Replacing the UK by Italy is thus not a problem. [19:00] schestowitz When it came to the Central Division the only compromise to be reached was to give a bit of this Central Division to each of the three big contracting states, and this is why London, Paris and Munich are mentioned expressis verbis in Art 7(2) UPCA. In Annex II, but also part of the UPCA, it is even stated which IPC classes will be dealt with in the various locations. [19:00] schestowitz What the proponents of the UPC hoped, was to bring it into force as quickly as possible, so that outstanders would not have time to realise what went on and all the drawbacks and problems the UPC could have been swept under the carpet. No institution would have the nerve to kill something which is already into force. [19:00] schestowitz Brexit put an end to this endeavour and for a long time the UPC proponents suggested lots of legal tricks by which the UK could participate without being still in the EU. [19:00] schestowitz Being written in the treaty, which on top has not yet entered into force, the falling out of the UK after Brexit has created a real problem. Art 31 and 32 VCLT are of no help as the wording in the treaty is crystal clear. Neither does Art 62 VCLT which clearly only applies to treaties which have entered into force. [19:00] schestowitz The only correct way would be to at least amend the treaty so as to clarify the situation of the London Section. This perfectly legal situation would require a new negotiation, not only on where the London Section should be reallocated, but also which technical areas should be dealt with between the three locations. I cannot see the French or the German chemical/pharmaceutical industry/government letting this branch of technique go to a country [19:00] schestowitz which is not at the forefront in those domains. [19:00] schestowitz More important, a new ratification would further delay the UPC by a few years. And the lobby behind the UPC (the big industry and especially big lawyer firms acting internationally) would see their hopes already smashed by Brexit completely ruined. The UPC proponents still hope that no institution would dare kill the amended UPC with the problems of the London section simply being ignored. This is why they still push towards a quick entry into [19:00] schestowitz force. [19:01] schestowitz Me Dhenne, like many other French lawyers, would like to see the duties of the London Section come to Paris (the Brexit gift according to Me Vron). The problem is that it is difficult to see any legal basis for such a transfer of duties to Paris, or even Munich, as in the meantime, Germany has also shown an interest. Do you think that the other contenders for the London Section, like Italy and The Netherlands would be without reaction? [19:01] schestowitz Without a revision of Art 7(2) UPCA it is doubtful that the UPC would be a legally constituted court in the meaning of Art 6(1) ECHR. What it is good if the EU Commission attacks Poland and Hungary on the independence of the justice and the necessity of a legally designed judge when it happens at a court which is meant to apply Union Law. That a UPC judge might be removed from office by its peers without offering any means of redress does also not [19:01] schestowitz appear in conformity with Union law. [19:01] schestowitz It should not be forgotten that appointment of UPC judges shall be carried out by the Administrative committee, i.e. by the representatives of member states (like at the EPO), that means that politics will thus play a direct role, in spite of the duties of the Advisory committee to preselect potential judges. [19:01] schestowitz To put it bluntly in spite of the nice words in the UPCA and in the statute of the court, the conformity of panels of the UPC with Art 6(1) ECHR, and especially those of the central section as it presently stands, does not seem to be given without any reasonable doubt. it would be nice to see those doubts dispelled as quickly as possible. [19:01] schestowitz In any case the UPC is a prime example of what lobbies can achieved! [19:01] schestowitz Wouter Pors [19:01] schestowitz DECEMBER 20, 2021 AT 9:54 AM [19:01] schestowitz The Dutch government certainly is aware that the UPC is approaching. There already is a law amending the Dutch Patent Act to bring it in line with the UPC Agreement, see https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/stb-2019-476.html. It will enter into force when the Agreement enters into force. All developments are regularly discussed in the standing committee on patents of the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs. [19:01] schestowitz Attentive Observer [19:01] schestowitz DECEMBER 20, 2021 AT 6:52 PM [19:01] schestowitz Is the Dutch government aware of the problems with Art 7(2) UPCA? [19:01] schestowitz Is this problem discussed in the standing committee on patents of the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs? [19:01] -TechBytesBot/#techbytes-zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl | Staatsblad 2019, 476 | Overheid.nl > Officile bekendmakingen [19:01] schestowitz Is the government sure that the UPCA is in accordance with Union Law? [19:01] schestowitz I am pretty sure that lobbyists of all kinds are helping the Dutch government! [19:01] schestowitz Patent robot [19:01] schestowitz DECEMBER 20, 2021 AT 10:05 AM [19:01] schestowitz If UK=Italy then London=Milan. [19:01] schestowitz Moreover, it was clear from the very beginning that the three UPC seats reflected the three most important UPC MS (the probability of guessing 3 numbers on 25 is 1/13800). [19:01] schestowitz By the way, the Italian pharma industry is the third in Europe after Switzerland and France, and before Germany and the UK. [19:01] schestowitz Attentive Observer [19:01] schestowitz DECEMBER 20, 2021 AT 6:54 PM [19:01] schestowitz What is your legal basis for UK=Italy then London=Milan? [19:01] schestowitz For the ratification OK, but for Art 7(2) UPCA I am not sure at all. [19:01] schestowitz Patent robot [19:01] schestowitz DECEMBER 21, 2021 AT 9:00 AM [19:01] schestowitz If UK=Italy for Art. 3.1 PAP then London=Milan for Art. 7.2 UPCA, unless someone can explain how you can interpret in the same way a first law (PAP) and not a second one (UPCA). [19:01] schestowitz Do we now have A-laws and B-laws? 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