IRC: #techbytes @ Techrights IRC Network: Friday, March 24, 2023

schestowitz[TR]

> Hi Roy.

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

> Sorry for the delay.

schestowitz[TR]

> The mediagoblin videos for the event are not up yet either.

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

> Here is a write up. As usual, please use what you find useful for the

schestowitz[TR]

> audience.

schestowitz[TR]

> I realize, I have not written anything in years really, and this was a

schestowitz[TR]

> great jump to writing again!

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

> Thanks,

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2023/03/epo-tries-to-have-its-cake-and-eat-it.html?showComment=1679566408018#c7566252785027688771

schestowitz[TR]

Lovely, positive tone!

Mar 24 02:16

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

One might even call it "breaking news". On his own excellent blog, IP.Appify, Daniel X.Thomas reports this week on T1093/21, where Applicant Nestle, in "conforming" the description, made unfortunate amendments which resulted in the patent getting revoked. The blog item includes as a comment:<br /><br />"A further possible conclusion, would be that it is better not to adapt the description to the claims.&quot

schestowitz[TR]

;<br /><br />How about that?<br />

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

Thank you Proof of the Pudding. Very interesting. ...</a></h5><blockquote>Thank you Proof of the Pudding. Very interesting. Separation of powers exists to the extent it is monitored, and so for human rights issues, etc, yes it does exist in a meaningful way in European institutions. But here we are talking about things which cannot be monitored properly by outside observers. There won't be any monitoring group that wil

schestowitz[TR]

l understand how the EPO needs to be separated from other government, EU or judicial bodies, and so there is nothing to stop interference with what the EPO does. Turning to your second point, the EU is gradually bringing the EPO under its influence, and there is nothing the EPO can really do about. So when we see the EPO coming up with 'solutions' to issues that the EU wants sorted out in a particular manner, it is pretty clear wher

schestowitz[TR]

e the political pressure is coming from. I won't go into the specific issues of Biotech Directive, etc. Whether or not one agrees with all the policies of the EU Commission it has an ongoing program of 'centralising' all institutions, and the EPO is clearly seen as important within that. The EPC and EPO case law won't be allowed to get in the way of that, and the process will be gradually continue, with the role of national patent o

schestowitz[TR]

ffices and national courts diminishing.

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

Well, folks, "Santa" has set an interesting hare running, hasn't he? Both Proof of Pudding and I now suspect that EPO intransigence on "conforming the description" is the result of huddles between EPO management and unidentified persons who suppose that such conformity is a sine qua non for the efficient administration of justice, going forward, by the new "unified" patents courts of Euro

schestowitz[TR]

pe. That, without it, the judges will inevitably go astray.<br /><br />I could never understand why the EPO, in house, should get so worked up and so hot and bothered about strict conformity. After all, i) they themselves are wise enough and experienced enough not to get fooled by the blandishments of cunning advocates of patent owners and their opponents, and ii) it's hard to turn the hugely time-consuming business of insisting on

schestowitz[TR]

strict conformity into a money-making exercise for the EPO. But if the EPO President has indeed been nobbled by these shadowy outside influencers from Brussels (or wherever) that would explain the "party line" on conformity within the EPO, because it is coming down from the President himself.<br /><br />I'm beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist, aren't I?<br /><br />Fact is though, most every other Patent Office

schestowitz[TR]

in the world receives its guidance on patent law from the courts who sit in judgement of the administrators at the Patent Office. Only the EPO is free from marching orders delivered by a supervisory court. Wholly free to do what it thinks is needed to safeguard the EPO, after having taken counsel from whatever behind-the-scenes advisers the President chooses to grant access to his left ear. <br /><br />In short, strict conformity is

schestowitz[TR]

yet another artefact of the UPCA, isn't it?

schestowitz[TR]

I n...</a></h5><blockquote>@ Proof of the pudding<br />@ Proof of the pudding<br /><br />I never said that you "carefully avoid" the majority case law on description adaptation. You disagree with it, which is your good right.<br /><br />When confronted with a series of decisions showing clearly that the mere repetition of the claim wording in the description was not to be considered as support under Art 84, 2d sentence, yo

schestowitz[TR]

u carefully avoided taking position on this case law.<br /><br />As usual, you came back with a new series of arguments. <br /><br />That, at least on occasion, examiners will inadvertently misconstrue the wording of the claims cannot lead to the conclusion, that, in general, the description has not to be adapted to the claims. <br /><br />To conclude that it is pointless for the EPO to continue with their efforts on adapting the de

schestowitz[TR]

scription is a step you would like to see carried out, but cannot be followed with the wording of Art 84, 2d sentence, as it stands, and as it has been considered by a majority of case law. <br /><br />It is here necessary to remind that the EPO and its boards of appeal cannot be taken responsible for decisions of national courts and vice versa. <br /><br />National courts are free in their interpretation and can define their own do

schestowitz[TR]

ctrine of equivalents. This does not withhold the EPO to apply the EPC. <br /><br />I would trust a national court to come to the right conclusion should an ED or an OD have occasionally misconstrued a claim. <br />

schestowitz[TR]

Santa, thank you for your interesting contribution.<br /><br />As one of those "people on the ground", it is hard for me to assess whether "behind the scenes" discussions take place in the manner that you describe. What I will say, however, is that what you describe strikes me as the most plausible explanation that I have yet seen for the EPO's decision to get ultra-strict with their description adaptation practi

schestowitz[TR]

ce.<br /><br />I will also make two further observations, both of which concern the rule of law.<br /><br />Firstly, even "informal" discussions between (quasi-)judicial bodies and (the minions of) executives or legislatures are capable of breaching one of the most fundamental rule of law principles, namely the doctrine of the separation of powers. Such breaches happen where the discussions lead to agreements, whether info

schestowitz[TR]

rmal or otherwise, to interpret the legislation in a particular (and not necessarily <i>legally</i> justified) manner.<br /><br />Secondly, for such "behind the scenes" discussions to have any practical use, there must also be a breach of another fundamental rule of law principle, namely the independence of the judiciary. That is, whilst the EPO's judiciary may have sympathy with the objective of enhancing economic activit

schestowitz[TR]

y, allowing that objective to influence their decision-making would breach their obligations under Article 23(3) EPC ("<i>In their decisions the members of the Boards shall not be bound by any instructions and shall comply <b>only</b> with the provisions of this Convention</i>").<br /><br />From a purely practical point of view, I would ask: why is it that it always seems to be the EPO that is put upon to clear up messes m

schestowitz[TR]

ade by others (such as legislatures or national courts)? Are the national courts and patent offices not sufficiently biddable in this regard?<br /><br />A case in point would be the interpretation of Article 53(b) EPC. Applying all of the permissible methods of interpretation to that provision, both the EBA and a (Dutch) national court reached a conclusion that was politically inconvenient for EU politicians. A sensible response to

schestowitz[TR]

that situation would be either to let the matter play out in the national courts (and, ultimately, the CJEU), or to pass new (EU and/or EPC) legislation. Instead, and purely for the sake of expediency, the EPO's executive and judiciary were pressed upon to cook up a half-baked and distasteful solution.<br /><br />Whilst the solution ultimately delivered may have relieved the pressure on EU politicians, it has done so at the expense

schestowitz[TR]

of the rule of law and the legitimacy of the patent system in Europe. With the EPO's description adaptation practice, I see things heading in very much the same direction.

schestowitz[TR]

Remarkable, I think, how many swimming pools of ink are being used, to debate the pro's and con's of "conforming" the description to the allowable claims. The issue certainly arouses strong feelings.<br /><br />If I understand it right, the EPO feels duty-bound to insist on strict conformity. Duty, that is, to the infringement courts of Europe, to deliver to them issued patents that their judges can construe accurately, an

schestowitz[TR]

d thus do justice between the parties. The EPO seems to think that unless it delivers a patent free from all ambiguity, the judges will go astray and hand down a defective decision. See pemetrexed, for example, say all those EPO insiders. What more evidence do you want or need? We have to save the judges from themselves, thinks the EPO. We are the experts, with 50 years of experience as opposed to UPC courts, with none.<br /><br />

schestowitz[TR]

No wonder the community of patent litigators on these blog threads (both in house and in private practice) are getting so hot under the collar. They are wondering how much experience there is, within the EPO, of adjudicating infringement proceedings.<br /><br />On that point, I'm thinking of the external members of the EBA. Is it them, whispering in the ear of the EPO? But they are judges, right, not litigators. I think they have no

schestowitz[TR]

experience of the patenting process. It could be that, well-meaning, they urge the EPO to be tough on conformity, but they have no experience of the consequences of such urgings.<br /><br />In the USA, there is widespread criticism whenever somebody is appointed to a position where they influence the course of patent law but have no experience of serving clients who are inventors, Applicants or opponents.

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-ipkitten.blogspot.com | EPO tries to have its cake and eat it on claim interpretation (T 0169/20) - The IPKat

*u-amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)

Mar 24 08:13

*u-amarsh04 (~amarsh04@nqkitbgnqjad4.irc) has joined #techbytes

Mar 24 08:18

*psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has left #techbytes

Mar 24 09:13

*psydruid (~psydruid@jevhxkzmtrbww.irc) has joined #techbytes

Mar 24 09:14

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://ubuntu.com//blog/snapping-out-of-docker">Snapping out of Docker: a robotics guide for migrating Docker to Snap</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>In this blog post, we are going to see when and how to migrate a ROS application currently deployed with Docker to Snap. We will use the web-based joystick application developed by Husarion, (GitHub – husarion/webui-ros-joystick) as an example. This application is used to send velocity commands to a ROS robot and manage a software emergency-stop.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-Snapping out of Docker: a robotics guide for migrating Docker to Snap | Ubuntu

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://rubenerd.com/my-new-isa-pc-diagnostic-card/">My new ISA/PCI PC diagnostic card</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>I’ve been sitting on a surface-mounted AMD 386-SX motherboard since 2002, and it’s never powered up properly. Maybe if I stood on it, I’d have better success. Recently I decided to try fixing it with a known-good power supply and peripherals, but beyond ascertaining that it indeed powers on, I haven’t got any futher.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-Rubenerd: My new ISA/PCI PC diagnostic card

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/pfaspfcs-where-to-shop-to-avoid-the-forever-chemicals-in-waterproof-clothing-a7dhg6Q0RCeO">PFAS/PFCs: where to shop to avoid the forever chemicals in waterproof clothing</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>PFAS (also known as PFCs) are a category of synthetic chemical that are used to make man-made products waterproof. They're used in outdoor clothing for waterproofing - a job they do very well. But their use has a significant environmental impact. Here's why, and what, if anything, the retailers you shop with are doing to avoid them.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

<p>When they were first developed, PFAS were a seemingly miraculous invention. It was thought that these chemicals were the only way to create a genuinely waterproof layer that prevented moisture from entering a manufactured product. It meant that they were the obvious choice for making waterproofing incredibly durable and long-lasting. They can be found in anything from non-stick cookware to

schestowitz[TR]

takeaway boxes, carpets and toiletries.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes- ( status 502 @ https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/pfaspfcs-where-to-shop-to-avoid-the-forever-chemicals-in-waterproof-clothing-a7dhg6Q0RCeO )

*psydroid2 (~psydroid@u8ftxtfux23wk.irc) has joined #techbytes

Mar 24 12:03

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://bianet.org/english/environment/276156-only-80-days-of-drinking-water-left-in-bursa">Only 80 days of drinking water left in Bursa</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>While speaking at an event organized by the Bursa Technical University on March 22, 'World Water Day', Bursa's governor Yakup Canbolat stated that the water reserves of Turkey's fourth most populated city would last 80 days.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

<p>"85 percent of Bursa's water needs are provided by Nilüfer and Doğancı dams, and 15 percent by stationary water sources. We know that the annual water capacity of the Nilüfer Dam is 60 million cubic meters, that of Doğancı is 125 million cubic meters," Canbolat explains, adding that Bursa consumes daily 425 thousand cubic meters of water.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-bianet.org | Only 80 days of drinking water left in Bursa - english

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://www.axios.com/2023/03/23/tiktoks-time-in-the-barrel">TikTok's time in the barrel</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>Zoom in: Some lawmakers used their time to challenge Chew on the same health and safety issues that plague all social media platforms, but questions about the Chinese Communist Party's ability to obtain user data or promote propaganda produced the most striking answers.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.axios.com | Hostile TikTok hearing likely to deepen push for U.S. ban

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://www.lrt.lt/en/news-in-english/19/1944433/russian-student-who-faced-prison-term-for-anti-war-posts-flees-to-lithuania">Russian student who faced prison term for anti-war posts flees to Lithuania</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>Krivtsova was put on trial for an Instagram post where she questioned why Ukrainians had rejoiced when the bridge to Russian-occupied Crimea was attacked in October.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

<p>For this post, Krivtsova was included in the Kremlin’s official list of terrorists and extremists. She was placed under house arrest and forbidden from using the phone or the [Internet].</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.lrt.lt | Russian student who faced prison term for anti-war posts flees to Lithuania - LRT

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/22/world/europe/russia-ukraine-social-media-crackdown.html">She Posted Online About the War in Ukraine. Then She Faced a Prison Term.</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>Her apparent crime? An Instagram post asking why Ukrainians had rejoiced when the main bridge to Russian-occupied Crimea was attacked in October.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

<p>The post eventually landed Ms. Krivtsova on the Kremlin’s official list of terrorists and extremists. She was placed under house arrest and forbidden from using the phone or the [Internet].</p>

schestowitz[TR]

<p>Ms. Krivtsova did not wait for a courtroom verdict: Last week, she fled the country.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

schestowitz[TR]

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.nytimes.com | Russian Faced Prison Time for Instagram Post About War in Ukraine - The New York Times

schestowitz[TR]

<li>

schestowitz[TR]

<h5><a href="https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/hongkong-winniethepooh-03222023143900.html">Distributors pull plug on Winnie the Pooh cult horror flick in Hong Kong</a></h5>

schestowitz[TR]

schestowitz[TR]

<p>Movie distributors in Hong Kong and Macau have canceled screenings of a British-made horror film featuring the popular children's character Winnie the Pooh, who is banned from China's tightly controlled [Internet] due to a supposed resemblance to Communist Party supreme leader Xi Jinping.</p>

schestowitz[TR]

</blockquote>

schestowitz[TR]

</li>

-TechBytesBot/#techbytes-www.rfa.org | Distributors pull plug on Winnie the Pooh cult horror flick in Hong Kong — Radio Free Asia