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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Thursday, January 02, 2020

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MinceR(audio:music only)   ( )Jan 02 00:42
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Cake day post (1st one I didn't miss) - Album on ImgurJan 02 00:42
schestowitzRichard Stallman wrote on 01/01/2020 23:18:>   > I need to correct myself: Netflix uses BSD on the servers.Jan 02 00:48
schestowitz> Jan 02 00:48
schestowitz> What software is in Netflix's servers has no effect on the customersJan 02 00:48
schestowitz> of Netflix.  This is why I say that the injustice of onlineJan 02 00:49
schestowitz> dis-services is a separate issue from free vs nonfree software.  WeJan 02 00:49
schestowitz> can say "unjust computing practices" to cover both of them, but theJan 02 00:49
schestowitz> two are very different in nature.Jan 02 00:49
schestowitzA long time ago I called that fog computing. But years later companies began using  "fog computing" as an actual buzzword for a real thing!Jan 02 00:49
schestowitzNowadays in Techrights we call that Clown Computing, as in ClownFlare etc.Jan 02 00:49
schestowitzIn your talks last year I saw you calling it "dis-service". I think we really need to campaign around these words and buzzwords.Jan 02 00:49
schestowitzIf you re regularly read Techrights, then you'll see we've adopted your approach of confronting the underlying words/terms/nisnomers.Jan 02 00:49
schestowitzA common criticism of the FSF in recent years is, not enough was done to combat these new kinds of threats. Would you consider rejoining the FSF's Board is that becomes possible and feasible? Oliva is 'watching the fort' for you and members want you back.Jan 02 00:49
MinceR 02 00:52
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: “Prove that you care about the Mission of the FSF — And DEFEND SOFTWARE FREEDOM.” #fsf #softwarefreedom #rms #gnu #freesw []Jan 02 01:08
MinceRit would be nice if the fsf cared about thatJan 02 01:09
XRevan86MinceR: "I wouldn't notice that either, for you see, I have an adblocker blocker blocker"Jan 02 01:11
XRevan86schestowitz: You know what would be honest? "Crowd computing" :)Jan 02 01:13
XRevan86As in shared resourcesJan 02 01:13
XRevan86But I guess that can be seen positively or negativelyJan 02 01:14
XRevan86Though who likes crowdsJan 02 01:15
MinceRXRevan86: i think i'm supposed to have an adblocker blocker list in my adblocker, but it doesn't seem to work at allJan 02 01:16
MinceRi usually just disable the scripts of the offending page if i want to give them another chanceJan 02 01:16
XRevan86MinceR: It's not very effective, yes.Jan 02 01:18
XRevan86What is "cloud computing" by its very nature? Delegate computing?Jan 02 01:20
XRevan86Outsourced computing?Jan 02 01:21
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Man Who Sold the (Linux) World []Jan 02 01:21
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kate - LSP Client Status []Jan 02 01:22
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Jan 02 01:23
XRevan86MinceR: There's Nano Defender, but it's relatively hard to set up with uBlock°Jan 02 01:24
MinceR 02 01:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectJan 02 01:26
XRevan86MinceR: Which you could argue is an ad blocker blocker blocker blocker blocker (:Jan 02 01:28
MinceR:>Jan 02 01:28
schestowitzlet's do a yo dawg meme?Jan 02 01:32
schestowitz[01:13] <XRevan86> schestowitz: You know what would be honest? "Crowd computing" :)Jan 02 01:32
schestowitzsounds like dwebJan 02 01:32
schestowitzblockchain etc.Jan 02 01:32
schestowitzi.e. the opposite of clown computingJan 02 01:32
schestowitzcrowdsourcing can be seen as a good thingJan 02 01:33
XRevan86Clod computingJan 02 01:33
schestowitzJean Claude ComputingJan 02 01:34
schestowitzkicks you right in the NUTS!Jan 02 01:34
MinceRlolJan 02 01:35
XRevan86Cloud -> clod is also phonologically freaky, as "au" in English speech tends to shift to "o" (auto), so it's like a next step after ou -> auJan 02 01:35
XRevan86Second derivativeJan 02 01:36
XRevan86(ou)''Jan 02 01:36
MinceRit would certainly be nice if the fsf launched an anti-systemd campaign and gnu gave gnome leaders the choice between starting respecting users' freedom and being kicked from the gnu projectJan 02 01:41
MinceRbut neither of those is likely to happenJan 02 01:41
XRevan86To kick GNOME from GNU one needs to kick it in first.Jan 02 01:43
XRevan86An anti-systemd campaign would be an interesting sight to see.Jan 02 01:45
XRevan86MinceR: Can you outline the exact grounds on which FSF can lead an anti-systemd campaign?Jan 02 01:46
MinceRXRevan86: 02 01:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | What is free software? - GNU Project - Free Software FoundationJan 02 01:47
MinceR"“Free software” means software that respects users' freedom and community."Jan 02 01:47
MinceRsystemd is the opposite of that.Jan 02 01:47
cubexyzno systemd: slackware, void, KNOPPIX, alpine, the BSDs, ReactOS, antiXJan 02 01:47
cubexyzprobably a bunch of other onesJan 02 01:47
XRevan86MinceR: This is literally about licensing.Jan 02 01:48
XRevan86MinceR: I doubt FSF will go ahead and say the licence systemd is licensed with isn't free.Jan 02 01:48
MinceRXRevan86: then they should replace the FSD with the text of the OSD to reflect thisJan 02 01:49
MinceRbecause as it stands, "free software" is not about licensing, but about the 4 freedoms.Jan 02 01:49
MinceRalso, last time i checked, GNOME was still part of the GNU projectJan 02 01:49
MinceR(strangely enough, considering how much they've done to destroy GNU)Jan 02 01:49
XRevan86MinceR: The four freedoms granted (waivered) by a licence.Jan 02 01:50
cubexyzadd freedom to repair to the listJan 02 01:50
MinceRand while they're at it, they might as well close shop and point people to OSI as their successorJan 02 01:51
MinceRbecause that was literally the difference between the two organizationsJan 02 01:51
XRevan86MinceR: Technically, yes, GNOME is. But they don't need it and don't really care Jan 02 01:51
MinceRthen perhaps it's time to formalize itJan 02 01:51
MinceRand for an anti-GNOME campaign as wellJan 02 01:51
MinceR   ( )Jan 02 01:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Imgur: The magic of the InternetJan 02 01:53
cubexyzdidn't M$ have two keys, one for windows and one for third party?Jan 02 01:53
cubexyzthey could revoke the 3rd party key and leave theirs workingJan 02 01:53
XRevan86cubexyz: IIRC, yesJan 02 01:53
MinceRnot sure if it was two or three (one for themselves, one for red hat, one for canonical)Jan 02 01:55
MinceRbut the whole point of the key business is that they could revoke themJan 02 01:55
MinceRat least if the "pc" booted into an OS that downloaded and obeyed their updates (like Backdoors)Jan 02 01:55
MinceRand it would be trivial to cobble together some false flag operation to justify itJan 02 01:56
XRevan86MinceR: When you look at a page that states what is and isn't free software, what do you see? Is it licences?Jan 02 01:56
cubexyzI'm also worried that coreboot can't boot on some SSD'sJan 02 01:57
XRevan86The free software definition does not tackle how a project is managed or by whomJan 02 01:57
cubexyzI'd definitely want to test thatJan 02 01:58
XRevan86cubexyz: It's hard for me to imagineJan 02 01:58
XRevan86"RAID"-mode or something?Jan 02 01:58
XRevan86What kind of SSD won't support AHCI?Jan 02 01:59
cubexyzXRevan86, I'm hearing about problems with coreboot and PureOS not booting Jan 02 02:00
cubexyzhaven't tried it myselfJan 02 02:01
XRevan86I have a new Samsung SSD (EVO series) and coreboot, no issues.Jan 02 02:01
MinceR02 025625 < XRevan86> MinceR: When you look at a page that states what is and isn't free software, what do you see? Is it licences?Jan 02 02:03
MinceRthat page would be the FSD, which i linkedJan 02 02:03
XRevan86cubexyz: PureOS is oddly specificJan 02 02:03
MinceRand licenses aren't in a prime position thereJan 02 02:03
cubexyzXRevan86, what hardware is that?Jan 02 02:03
cubexyzASUS maybe?Jan 02 02:03
XRevan86 I meant this pageJan 02 02:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Various Licenses and Comments about Them - GNU Project - Free Software FoundationJan 02 02:04
XRevan86cubexyz: ThinkPad X230Jan 02 02:04
MinceRthe problem is not how a project is managed or by whom, it's the unnecessary dependencies built into it constraining what other software you can or can't use, for no good reason, and making the code unnecessarily difficult for others to maintainJan 02 02:04
MinceR"free software" and "free software license" are not the same thingJan 02 02:05
MinceRagain, it's the OSD that's all about licensesJan 02 02:05
XRevan86An anti-Qt FSF campaign would also be a fun sight.Jan 02 02:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Catfish 1.4.12 Released []Jan 02 02:08
XRevan86Consequences of *demanding* that a project maintains absolute flexibility (can that even be a thing?) are hard to imagine.Jan 02 02:08
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Best GIF Maker Apps for Linux []Jan 02 02:11
MinceRi don't know where you're getting these ideas fromJan 02 02:11
XRevan86MinceR: If FSF were to campaign against systemd, they'd need a rather formal list of what freedoms systemd violate.Jan 02 02:12
schestowitz4 freedoms are not enoughJan 02 02:13
schestowitzbut...Jan 02 02:13
schestowitzit's another angleJan 02 02:13
schestowitzit can be free softwareJan 02 02:13
schestowitzbut still there are issues associated issuesJan 02 02:13
schestowitzaside from S.F.D. or F.S.D.Jan 02 02:14
schestowitzso we need to define those issuesJan 02 02:14
XRevan86If systemd violates freedoms through requiring what it might work without…Jan 02 02:14
schestowitzthen, ways to tackle themJan 02 02:14
schestowitzsystemd is described in 02 02:14
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Librethreat Database - TechrightsJan 02 02:14
XRevan86MinceR: then suddenly people who say "I can't use your software, it requires too new gettext, my CentOS 4 has that not" have weight in their voice.Jan 02 02:15
MinceRXRevan86: freedoms 0 and 1Jan 02 02:15
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Jan 02 02:16
XRevan86Freedom 1: The project maintainer has to make sure it runs on your computer?Jan 02 02:18
MinceRagain, i don't know where you're taking this fromJan 02 02:19
XRevan86> the problem is <…> the unnecessary dependencies built into it constraining what other software you can or can't useJan 02 02:21
MinceRfor example, forcing journald on the users is an indefensible decisionJan 02 02:23
XRevan86MinceR: If with a dozen macros you can lower a gettext dependency requirement, are you obligated to?Jan 02 02:23
MinceRusers should have the right to choose their system loggerJan 02 02:23
MinceRif it's just a gettext version and gettext wasn't radically changed, clearly notJan 02 02:23
MinceRalso, gettext versions don't block each other on a system, afaictJan 02 02:24
MinceRwhile there's only one pid1Jan 02 02:24
XRevan86MinceR: journald doesn't block syslog if you tell it not to.Jan 02 02:24
MinceRoh really?Jan 02 02:25
MinceRwell, in any case, there's an alternativeJan 02 02:25
MinceRthe fsf could throw in the towelJan 02 02:25
MinceRand we can hide underground, using code we share secretly and anonymouslyJan 02 02:25
MinceRand not tell the masses or the corporates ever aginJan 02 02:26
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Introducing Bonsai []Jan 02 02:26
MinceRs/gin/gain/Jan 02 02:26
XRevan86MinceR: And since journald can relay all its messages to syslog, it isn't conflicting at all.Jan 02 02:26
XRevan86And that's without any attempt to try to rip it out, which is also possible.Jan 02 02:27
MinceRuntil someone finds a vulnerability that makes it "forget" to forward some of themJan 02 02:27
MinceRan attempt to rip it out shouldn't even be necessaryJan 02 02:27
MinceRthey keep spreading their bullshit claims about it being "modular"Jan 02 02:27
XRevan86MinceR: It's a kitchen sink, that's my opinionJan 02 02:28
XRevan86MinceR: Is that non-free though? There are many kitchen sinks of varying shapes and sizes out thereJan 02 02:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: ArchBang Winter Iso Release, Happy New Year []Jan 02 02:30
XRevan86And systemd really has a use for journald which generic syslog cannot satisfy, so "unnecessary" is also relative and subjective. And you can't really run a campaign on subjectivity, otherwise you just end up a SJW.Jan 02 02:32
MinceRXRevan86: not in itselfJan 02 02:33
MinceRXRevan86: but this particular kitchen sink was intended to prevent people from using udev on its own and to force journald on people, among other thingsJan 02 02:34
MinceRalso, gnome is trying to force this kitchen sink on peopleJan 02 02:34
XRevan86MinceR: It's not that sinister. It's not as much "prevent" as it is "don't care"Jan 02 02:38
XRevan86But udev can be used standalone, probably only for a pragmatic reason: initramfsJan 02 02:39
MinceRyeah, i must be imagining thingsJan 02 02:40
MinceR 02 02:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | [systemd-devel] [PATCH] Drop the udev firmware loaderJan 02 02:40
MinceR 02 02:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Linux-Kernel Archive: careful review of kdbusJan 02 02:40
MinceRnothing to see here, move alongJan 02 02:40
XRevan86kdbus… the project that went nowhere?Jan 02 02:42
MinceRthe project that went nowhere only because Linus stopped itJan 02 02:43
MinceRrecall what happened to Linus since thenJan 02 02:43
XRevan86> Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. Lennart.Jan 02 02:43
XRevan86What a great line.Jan 02 02:43
MinceRbut the thing that's interesting about kdbus here is that they attempted to use their ill-gotten installed base of systemd to try to force Linus to merge kdbusJan 02 02:43
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kernel: Scheduler Woes, Buffered I/O and Userspace Pages []Jan 02 02:54
XRevan86Also about unnecessary dependencies: I doubt GNU extensions in libc are very necessary for GNU coreutils, yet I'm fairly sure GNU coreutils require that. Proprietary GNUJan 02 02:56
MinceRat least you can have multiple libc-s on the same systemJan 02 02:56
XRevan86And GNU code is famously cluttered, "unnecessarily difficult for others to maintain".Jan 02 02:57
MinceRthat's for them to fixJan 02 02:57
MinceR 02 02:58
XRevan86MinceR: Using rsyslog alongside journald is immeasurably easier than to use multiple libc's at the same time.Jan 02 02:59
XRevan86And glibc is a rather complex piece of software, requiring that can be considered limitingJan 02 03:01
XRevan86An anti-GNU FSF campaign is the ultimate sight to see %)Jan 02 03:02
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Perl and Python Programming []Jan 02 03:07
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU/Linux on Desktop/Laptop []Jan 02 03:09
oiaohmXRevan86: using rsyslog instead of journald completely is simpler than the multipible libc at the same time.Jan 02 03:15
oiaohmjournald is really option but the documentation to swap it out is spread out all over the place.Jan 02 03:16
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schestowitz 02 03:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-A year-end wrap-up from LWN []Jan 02 03:48
schestowitz"Jan 02 03:48
schestowitzThe other side of evaluating predictions is looking at what was missed. One obvious omission was the leadership transition at the Free Software Foundation as the result of Richard Stallman being forced out. In retrospect, it seems clear that a change had to happen at some point, but saying when it might occur is always hard ahead of the actual event.Jan 02 03:48
schestowitzOn the kernel front, the many-year effort to get lockdown capability into the kernel finally came to fruition; that is another event that had to happen sometime, but your editor didn't expect it in 2019. Even more unpredictable was the pidfd API, which seemingly came into existence, fully formed, after the beginning of the year, though rumblings were certainly evident before then.Jan 02 03:48
schestowitzAnother surprise was the openSUSE project's decision to separate from SUSE and form a separate foundation. This move is being made partly to make it easier for openSUSE to seek support from multiple sources, but the project still is likely to be dependent on SUSE for some time — perhaps indefinitely. The process of negotiating the project's future relationship — and the use of the openSUSE name, which the project elected to retain — Jan 02 03:48
schestowitzwith its former corporate owner is likely to be complex. One can only wish openSUSE well as it charts its course going forward.Jan 02 03:48
schestowitz"Jan 02 03:48
schestowitz 02 03:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/ "Recently I received issue 35 of the FSF Bulletin. (Not yet available at .) My copy has already been recycled but it struck me Stallman wasn't mentioned even once." Surreal." 02 03:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> | FSF Bulletins — Free Software Foundation — working together for free softwareJan 02 03:48
MinceRi can't wish suse well, "open" or notJan 02 03:56
schestowitzcan't blame youJan 02 04:03
schestowitzthey can never be trusted, even if they merely renameJan 02 04:03
schestowitzthe people in key position have 'cargo'Jan 02 04:03
schestowitzor 'baggage'Jan 02 04:03
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Celebration of #Censorship and Self-Censorship in #Linux []Jan 02 04:06
DaemonFC[m]I distro hopped.Jan 02 04:45
danielp3344wooo!Jan 02 04:46
DaemonFC[m]But I've been on Fedora for about 10 years nowJan 02 04:46
DaemonFC[m]I thought Mandriva was pretty good.Jan 02 04:46
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Great Example of #Openwashing : #LatitudeLearning (to Fake Its 'Openness') #lms #moodle #clowncomputing []Jan 02 05:17
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Foundation Has Killer Instincts []Jan 02 05:41
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: OSS Leftovers []Jan 02 06:18
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME has a ‘Secret’ Screen Recorder. Here’s How to Use it! []Jan 02 06:19
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Open Source Initiative (OSI) Presents a Highly Misleading Picture of Who Runs or Steers It []Jan 02 07:11
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNOME has a ‘Secret’ Screen Recorder. Here’s How to Use it! []Jan 02 08:12
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Trisquel 9.0 Beta Review from January 2020 []Jan 02 08:13
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Microsoft Loves Linux Funerals []Jan 02 08:25
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Google is Not Your Friend and It Was Never Your Friend []Jan 02 08:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Jan 02 08:29
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Microsoft Loves You! []Jan 02 10:45
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Jan 02 10:59
XRevan86 02 11:00
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | GitBucket 4.33.0 released!Jan 02 11:00
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schestowitzwhat about it?Jan 02 11:04
XRevan86schestowitz: Didn't notice the releaseJan 02 11:04
schestowitza .33 sounds like minor bugfixJan 02 11:05
schestowitzthey could do a chrome, or ff copying chromeJan 02 11:06
schestowitzand go 33.4Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzor 33.0.4Jan 02 11:06
XRevan86or 433.0 :)Jan 02 11:06
schestowitzyou're not just talking CRAAAZYJan 02 11:06
schestowitzBLAG releases were in the t housandsJan 02 11:07
XRevan86BLAG?Jan 02 11:07
XRevan86 02 11:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-xkcd: MispronouncingJan 02 11:08
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Qubes OS 4.0.2 has been released! []Jan 02 12:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: DevNation, Java, Go, and Python/Django []Jan 02 12:40
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Jan 02 12:44
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oiaohm  these does show some horrible level numbers for modification.   About 1/5 of the code base was remove and about 1/4 of the code base is new in 12 months.Jan 02 13:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Systemd Is Approaching 1.3 Million Lines While Poettering Lost Top Contributor Spot For 2019 - PhoronixJan 02 13:06
schestowitzwhat do the comments there say?Jan 02 13:35
MinceR 02 13:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectJan 02 13:39
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security: Debian Long Term Support (LTS) and Debian Extended Long Term Support (ELTS), Other News []Jan 02 13:44
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Guide: How to Share A Folder Between Ubuntu/Linux and Windows []Jan 02 13:47
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open Hardware and Software []Jan 02 13:49
MinceR 02 13:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectJan 02 13:50
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Servers: Container Runtimes, Canonical’s Charmed OpenStack and LF's Confidential (Surveillance) Computing Consortium []Jan 02 13:51
XRevan86MinceR: huh?Jan 02 13:52
XRevan86Ah, got it :)Jan 02 13:53
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 2/1/2020: Catfish 1.4.12, Qubes OS 4.0.2 and Bonsai Introduced []Jan 02 14:14
MinceR(audio:important) 02 14:29
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How #Microsoft tells its shareholders that it's winning even when it's losing big to #gnu #linux []Jan 02 14:34
XRevan86MinceR: fehkJan 02 14:46
psydroidMicrosoft is winning the hearts and minds of people the world overJan 02 14:55
XRevan86Somehow I remember that my listening comprehension of English is not very good roughly at the same time I start watching new episodes of Doctor Who. Jan 02 15:08
psydroidI can believe that, I had a lot of trouble watching the BBC in high school, it wasn't until I entered university that I felt my listening comprehension substantially improvedJan 02 15:11
XRevan86psydroid: Old BBC is a lot easier to understand though.Jan 02 15:11
XRevan86When they enforced RP and clear enunciation.Jan 02 15:12
MinceRi find us english to be much easier to understand in audio than uk englishJan 02 15:12
XRevan86I'm fine with them being more inclusive with Irish and Scottish accents, but these new London accents…Jan 02 15:12
XRevan86boy are they hard to make outJan 02 15:13
psydroidXRevan86, so you are saying it got worse?Jan 02 15:13
XRevan86psydroid: It got more willy-nillyJan 02 15:14
psydroidI had people at work in Dublin from North Dublin and Yorkshire among others and also met Indians with weird intonations, so I probably got used to it and don't have a lot of trouble understanding most of themJan 02 15:15
psydroidbut yes, I even have that with Hindi movies these daysJan 02 15:15
XRevan86intonations are weird, but words are clear at leastJan 02 15:15
psydroidthey are using more dialects and slang than ever before and that's not good if you only ever heard the standard language with standard pronunciationJan 02 15:16
XRevan86 not the worst, but also has notable momentsJan 02 15:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-The Doctor and the Dalek Face Off | Resolution | Doctor Who - YouTubeJan 02 15:17
XRevan86> they're really stupinJan 02 15:17
XRevan86is that "stubborn" or "stupid"?Jan 02 15:17
XRevan86> they fough of so many thingsJan 02 15:18
XRevan86thought? fought?Jan 02 15:18
psydroidoh my, and this isn't even that much of an accentJan 02 15:19
XRevan86psydroid: Yes, it really isn'tJan 02 15:19
XRevan86Others talk way more differently in Doctor WhoJan 02 15:21
XRevan86psydroid: And here she is trying to talk clearlyJan 02 15:22
XRevan86she doesn't alwaysJan 02 15:22
XRevan86I also found it very peculiar just how much English changed at the centre of England.Jan 02 15:27
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU Programs Aren't “Linux Commands” But GNU Programs []Jan 02 15:28
XRevan86 the very first complete sentence in this clipJan 02 15:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Graham and Ryan vs Tim Shaw | The Battle of Ranskoor Av Kolos | Doctor Who - YouTubeJan 02 15:29
XRevan86"I shwore if I ever shaw you again I'd kill you"Jan 02 15:30
XRevan86shweetJan 02 15:30
XRevan86psydroid: Try 1:04 hereJan 02 15:31
XRevan86"you're not the only ones who can… conscience the vow of nothing"Jan 02 15:32
XRevan86"tables in the portal, big fig ones"Jan 02 15:34
MinceRmy favorite vowJan 02 15:35
XRevan86I know she said "big", but she literally says "fig"Jan 02 15:35
XRevan86what is happening with consonant voiceness?Jan 02 15:35
psydroidXRevan86, maybe it was always like this and the media just gave us perfect RP, which they aren't doing anymoreJan 02 15:35
MinceR 02 15:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectJan 02 15:35
XRevan86psydroid: Diverging more and more behind the curtainsJan 02 15:35
XRevan86Of course here English is… uncomplainable: 02 15:37
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No Doctor I'm the Doctor! | Doctor Who | Robot | BBC - YouTubeJan 02 15:37
psydroidI heard big thing onesJan 02 15:37
psydroidthick?Jan 02 15:37
XRevan86psydroid: Oh, yes, it's "thick"Jan 02 15:38
XRevan86"then split the fielt… must be able to split the fielt"Jan 02 15:39
XRevan86psydroid: Here's a great example of enunciation, notice how she says "must be able to"Jan 02 15:40
MinceR 02 15:41
XRevan86I can't imagine anyone watching that without earphones and absolute attentionJan 02 15:43
schestowitzMinceR: what is this?Jan 02 15:49
MinceRinterference pattern between two perforated sheets with a hexagonal pattern of circular holesJan 02 15:51
psydroidmaybe if you lived there and got used to the various accentsJan 02 15:51
XRevan86psydroid: Indeed, but that shouldn't be the requirement.Jan 02 15:52
XRevan86psydroid: And more importantly, there should be standards of diction.Jan 02 15:53
psydroidI speak both Dutch and German but I don't understand any Limburgian dialect that is spoken in the border provinceJan 02 15:55
psydroidhowever this is supposed to be universally intelligible EnglishJan 02 15:55
MinceRdo they provide subtitles?Jan 02 15:55
XRevan86MinceR: On eyePlayer – yes.Jan 02 15:56
MinceRpfftJan 02 15:56
XRevan86psydroid: BBC America should make a dub :)Jan 02 15:57
MinceRsubtitles > dubJan 02 15:57
XRevan86MinceR: It's a jokeJan 02 15:57
psydroidXRevan86, I'm afraid that would make the series unwatchable :)Jan 02 15:58
MinceR"England and America are two countries separated by a common language."Jan 02 15:58
XRevan86and it's already ironic that you would consider a dub from London English to General 'merican a concept to consider %)Jan 02 15:58
MinceR— Attributed to George Bernard ShawJan 02 15:58
XRevan86psydroid: Now I can really tell you haven't seen the latest seasons %)Jan 02 16:01
XRevan86I'm just extremely loyalJan 02 16:01
XRevan86I'd blame the writer, Chris Chibnall, but it's plainly shot bad.Jan 02 16:02
XRevan86lyJan 02 16:03
XRevan86After the removal of Steven Moffat it feels like Doctor Who was replaced with a cheap knock-off.Jan 02 16:07
XRevan86And the last season of Steven Moffat was tired already, yet even after that season 11 feels like a downgrade.Jan 02 16:08
psydroidI watched it when David Tennant was on the series, he probably isn't anymoreJan 02 16:09
XRevan86psydroid: He was replaced with Matt Smith (and RTD → Steven Moffat), who was replaced with Peter Capaldi, who was replaced with Jodie Whittaker (and Moffat → Chris Chibnall)Jan 02 16:10
danielp3344I only watch the ones that made it onto VHS :PJan 02 16:11
XRevan86danielp3344: The new series was good tooJan 02 16:12
XRevan86It lived on for a decade no lessJan 02 16:12
XRevan86I won't be surprised if I hear that season 12 is going to be the last one.Jan 02 16:15
MinceR 02 16:20
schestowitz 02 16:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@BrideOfLinux: It's not going to happen, but the Linux Foundation has showed time and time again that it's no friend of desktop Li… 02 16:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@BrideOfLinux: It's not going to happen, but the Linux Foundation has showed time and time again that it's no friend of desktop Li… 02 16:33
schestowitz"It's not going to happen, but the Linux Foundation has showed time and time again that it's no friend of desktop Linux or the community around it: Linux Suggestion for 2020 - Linus Should Grab His Trademark and Abandon the Linux Foundation Like He Did OSDL"Jan 02 16:33
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MinceRs/desktop //Jan 02 17:12
MinceRFTFYJan 02 17:12
MinceRand yes he should, if he's still at liberty to do soJan 02 17:12
MinceR 02 17:21
MinceR 02 17:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: 'Cancel Culture' in Debian Project []Jan 02 17:50
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos #howto #gnu #linux #unix []Jan 02 17:50
matlockI don't understand what Microsoft has to do with a hard drive coming pre-formatted as exFAT other than the drive maker wanting to make sure it worked out of the box with the most popular OS. It also doesn't come pre-formatted as APFS for macOS users. Is it really that hard to re-format a disk to your preferred format?Jan 02 17:51
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KStars v3.3.9 is Released []Jan 02 18:03
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schestowitzmatlock: Windows is not popularJan 02 18:03
oiaohmmatlock: exfat comes about because Microsoft got that into the sdxc standard.Jan 02 18:04
matlockWhat does SDXC have to do with a hard drive?Jan 02 18:04
psydroidMicrosoft has everything to do with it, as their software is the standard on the x86 hardware standard that the company has control over to a large extent. If storage companies really wanted to offer products that were ready to use, they would also offer drives that are pre-formatted with APFS or ext4, bit that doesn't happenJan 02 18:05
psydroidbut*Jan 02 18:05
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Systemd Is Approaching 1.3 Million Lines While Poettering Lost Top Contributor Spot For 2019 []Jan 02 18:05
matlockpsydroid Exactly, Windows, whether we like it or not, is the most popular OS and most generic PC components are going to come pre-configured for those users as a convenience. But no one is stopping you from reformatting to EXT4, BtrFS, ZFS, whatever you want, you still have control over the device. Jan 02 18:09
MinceRif it's so popular, why does microshit have to blackmail PC OEMs to not offer other OS-es preinstalled on PC-s?Jan 02 18:11
MinceRif it's so popular, why does microshit have to replace the boot firmware with one that is designed to lock competing OS-es out?Jan 02 18:11
MinceRit's the same story as with cancerdJan 02 18:11
MinceRwe're supposed to believe that [product the authoritarians are trying to force on us] is so great that everybody wants to use it anyway, but then they go and try to force it on us anywayJan 02 18:12
psydroidmatlock, Windows, whether we like it or not, is becomingly increasingly irrelevant, so that doesn't fully explain why such devices come preformatted with very low-end filesystems that shouldn't even be considered for storing temporary data, let alone permanent dataJan 02 18:12
MinceRif cancerd and winblows were as great as their peddlers claim they are, they wouldn't have to force them on us and we'd _want_ to use them anywayJan 02 18:12
psydroidit's not popular, it's just Microsoft forcing their inferior standards on tbe computer industry and as a consequence everyone suffersJan 02 18:13
psydroidthe*Jan 02 18:13
samiamsamcancerd?Jan 02 18:13
MinceRas for FAT, either it shouldn't be the default on storage devices (including the standard for SD cards) or microshit shouldn't get to own patents on it which they use to control/extort corporations that sell Linux-based devicesJan 02 18:13
MinceRsamiamsam: also known as systemdJan 02 18:14
psydroidit's the last thing they can do in an industry where Microsoft is a has-beenJan 02 18:14
samiamsamohJan 02 18:14
samiamsamwho is forcing you to use systemdJan 02 18:14
MinceRred hat is tryingJan 02 18:14
samiamsambut you're not forced to use redhatJan 02 18:14
MinceRthey subverted the distribution i was using and destroyed it from the inside to try to get me to use itJan 02 18:14
MinceRthey made gnome depend on itJan 02 18:14
MinceRthey're still trying to move functionality from Linux to cancerd so i'd have to use cancerd if i were to use LinuxJan 02 18:15
MinceRthey tried to cripple some firmware loading functionality in Linux so people would have to use systemd-udevdJan 02 18:15
samiamsambeing concerned about dependencies being forced on you...  using gnomeJan 02 18:15
samiamsampick 1Jan 02 18:15
matlockMinceR Dell, HP, Lenovo all offer Linux pre-installed on certain workstation and server models. Microsoft ensured users running incompatible OSes could disable secure boot until distro makers adopted UEFI.Jan 02 18:16
MinceRyeah, i remember the hidden webshite dHell hid their PCs with Linux preinstalled onJan 02 18:16
MinceRand it sold only in the USA or something like thatJan 02 18:16
MinceRthough i guess the world _is_ the USA for youJan 02 18:16
matlockpsydroid If you were a major PC drive maker selling through general channels, what format would you ship drives in to ensure maximum compatibility with most users?Jan 02 18:17
MinceRdistro makers adopting UEFI doesn't solve the Restricted Boot problem, as microsloth still decides what OS-es are allowed to bootJan 02 18:17
schestowitz[18:11] <MinceR> if it's so popular, why does microshit have to blackmail PC OEMs to not offer other OS-es preinstalled on PC-s?Jan 02 18:17
schestowitzneed to look up def of "popular"Jan 02 18:17
schestowitzmany people use Windows, but rarely by choice. Many prefer Android these days, partly by choice.Jan 02 18:18
schestowitzIs influenza popular?Jan 02 18:18
matlockThere is 'popularJan 02 18:18
schestowitzmaybe ubiquitousJan 02 18:19
matlock' as in well-liked and popular as in common, I was using it in the common designationJan 02 18:19
schestowitzlike traffic ticketsJan 02 18:19
psydroidmatlock, I would offer a choice of NTFS/exFAT, APFS and ext4Jan 02 18:19
MinceRlike cancerJan 02 18:19
MinceRi would offer a choice of filesystems unencumbered by patents and with a publicly available specificationJan 02 18:20
MinceRif microsuck wants their shitty filesystem catered to, they should give up the patent racket based on itJan 02 18:21
matlockpsydroid I understand. That would likely increase manufacturing costs. Are you okay with paying that premium? Apple sells third-party drives pre-formatted APFS that are twice as expensive as the same storage at Best Buy. You'd be good with that?Jan 02 18:21
psydroid<matlock "MinceR Dell, HP, Lenovo all offe"> I don't want to be dependent on the "generosity" of MicrosoftJan 02 18:21
MinceRhow would that increase manufacturing costs?Jan 02 18:21
MinceRdo you realize that the exact same physical device can hold all these filesystems?Jan 02 18:21
MinceRpsydroid: good, since they don't have anyJan 02 18:21
danielp3344can't we ship blank disks?Jan 02 18:22
danielp3344surely users can format themJan 02 18:22
matlockThree SKUs, three places on the shelf they would have rent from retailers, additional returns from people who bought the wrong one accidentally. Jan 02 18:22
danielp3344and it saves a manufacturing stepJan 02 18:22
MinceRdanielp3344: it should be possibleJan 02 18:22
psydroidmatlock, that's a strawman argument, it's up to the hardware manufacturer to pre-format the hard drive or do nothing at allJan 02 18:22
MinceRiirc their beloved winblows even asks you if you want to "format" a disk it doesn't understandJan 02 18:22
MinceR(which of course includes competing filesystems)Jan 02 18:23
matlockWhy not be convenient for the vast majority of users out of the box?Jan 02 18:23
danielp3344otherwise FAT seems to be the only FS understood by everyoneJan 02 18:23
matlockpsydroid Also additional design and packaging costs.Jan 02 18:23
MinceRfun fact: western digital did (and probably still does) sell HDDs formatted with whatever crap macos usesJan 02 18:23
danielp3344matlock: how long does it take to format a drive? 10 seconds?Jan 02 18:23
MinceRapparently they can afford that oh so expensive manufacturing stepJan 02 18:23
danielp3344even if I bought a drive that was formatted with FAT I'd still make it EXT4 before using it as a rootfsJan 02 18:24
matlockdanielp3344 Of course formatting is no problem for us here. I am thinking about my parents though.Jan 02 18:24
MinceR 02 18:25
danielp3344matlock: as mentioned, windows can format a disk pretty easilyJan 02 18:25
danielp3344(not that I care about windows :P )Jan 02 18:25
MinceRoh, but clicking "yes" on a dialog box that comes up automatically is too difficult for themJan 02 18:25
danielp3344also windows would probably prefer NTFSJan 02 18:25
danielp3344MinceR: then they shouldn't be using a computerJan 02 18:26
MinceRas opposed to removing a Restricted Boot signing key somewhere in UEFI setupJan 02 18:26
MinceRbecause _that_ is easy!Jan 02 18:26
MinceRfucking microshit apologists and their bullshit "arguments"Jan 02 18:26
matlockMy parents are not going to be dual-booting an obscure Linux distro without UEFI support.Jan 02 18:26
MinceRyou know what, i have an idea for microsoftJan 02 18:26
MinceRput a FAT formatting utility into UEFIJan 02 18:26
MinceRrequire it for the winblows stickerJan 02 18:26
danielp3344matlock: surely they can be convinced to learn a *little* bit about computers?Jan 02 18:27
MinceRthen they can sell unformatted HDDs and save a very expensive manufacturing step!Jan 02 18:27
danielp3344enough to manage their own drives?Jan 02 18:27
matlockMy parents don't really know what a drive is. They go to 'the Firefox' and 'the AOL' and check their news and e-mail.Jan 02 18:28
danielp3344matlock: then they don't need helpJan 02 18:28
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: A Long Way Down, Dark Envoy, Godot Engine, Half-Life: Alyx, Fury Unleashed and devilutionX []Jan 02 18:29
danielp3344I have yet to meet anyone far gone enough that they couldn't understand a hard driveJan 02 18:29
MinceRmaybe you don't meet enough microsloth/ibm fanboysJan 02 18:29
danielp3344MinceR: oh I haveJan 02 18:29
psydroidMinceR, I am afraid the Microsoft virus runs deep inside Linux companies and they have sent their minions to this channel to convert the last remaining true GNU/Linux believers to their brand of MicrosoftismJan 02 18:29
MinceRindeedJan 02 18:30
danielp3344I think that's perhaps a bit dramaticJan 02 18:30
MinceRthey took over the Linux Foundation, they took over debian, they took over FSF and the GNU ProjectJan 02 18:30
danielp3344The first one I get....Jan 02 18:31
danielp3344are the last two references to RMS?Jan 02 18:31
MinceRnot onlyJan 02 18:31
MinceRi wish RMS was the only person loyal to rh/ibm at FSF/GNUJan 02 18:31
matlockMinceR It's not the formatting that is expensive, it would be separate packaging for 3+ items, renting expensive space on retailer shelves, additional returns from customer confusion, it would be an expense. An example would be drives for the Apple market that are twice as expensive, even from non-Apple retailers, than PC drives. Jan 02 18:31
MinceRyeah, stickers are very expensiveJan 02 18:32
MinceRwhich is why WD didn't have totally different product names and packagings for those HDDsJan 02 18:32
MinceRoh wait, they totally didJan 02 18:32
danielp3344Just out of curiosity...Jan 02 18:32
danielp3344Is there an HDD maker that would actually listen to us?Jan 02 18:33
MinceRunlikelyJan 02 18:33
MinceRthe majority of the money available on the IT market is in the hands of moronsJan 02 18:33
danielp3344Or are we just upset about what 'PC' means to a distressing % of the worldJan 02 18:33
MinceRwhich is why crApple is doing well and the general purpose computer is going the way of the dodoJan 02 18:33
matlockMany people just want to be upset.Jan 02 18:34
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Five-bay, open source NAS features RK3399, UPS, and 2.5GbE []Jan 02 18:34
MinceRyeah, like the people with whom microsloth forced Linux to adopt a CoC of their choosingJan 02 18:34
matlockThat is simply not supported by the available data. 02 18:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Gartner Says Worldwide PC Shipments Grew 1.1% in Third Quarter of 2019Jan 02 18:35
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matlockpsydroid No one sent me here. I'm actually still off work for the holidays. I enjoy discussing these issues, even in my free time.Jan 02 18:36
schestowitzlol gartner :-)Jan 02 18:37
schestowitzmicrosoft and gates fund themJan 02 18:37
schestowitzI can imagine how they define computerJan 02 18:37
schestowitzwhatever microsoft wantsJan 02 18:37
MinceR_oh yeah, the totally "independent" Gangster Group says otherwise. maybe they even remembered to remove the microsoft copyright notices from their "independent" report this time?Jan 02 18:37
schestowitzand always anything to diminish linux and gnu impact 02 18:37
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Gartner Group - TechrightsJan 02 18:37
schestowitzthey rarely menion the L word, never GNUJan 02 18:37
MinceR_if microsloth says it with their mouth with the "microsoft" label on it, that's obviously propaganda, but if it comes from the mouth with "gartner" on it, then it's gospelJan 02 18:38
MinceR_isn't it?Jan 02 18:38
schestowitzthey also bully reportersJan 02 18:38
MinceR_they're the same fucking mafia matlock works forJan 02 18:38
schestowitzif they mention the name Gartner in a way Gartner dislikesJan 02 18:38
schestowitzgartner 'analysts' should be out in the streets selling butttplugs from a plastic cupJan 02 18:38
MinceR_that would be unsanitaryJan 02 18:39
MinceR_can you expect these hacks to do anything properly?Jan 02 18:39
<--MinceR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)Jan 02 18:39
schestowitzcompanies that are large pay themJan 02 18:39
schestowitzthey pretend it's for 'consulting'Jan 02 18:39
---MinceR_ is now known as MinceRJan 02 18:39
schestowitzbut it's a bruveJan 02 18:39
schestowitzbribeJan 02 18:39
---ChanServ gives channel operator status to MinceRJan 02 18:39
schestowitzto get the 'analysts' to say what they want them to sayJan 02 18:39
schestowitzit's their business modelJan 02 18:39
schestowitzthe media called that the "Gartner tax"Jan 02 18:39
matlockYou can't dispute the PC shipment data, just ad hominem attacks on Gartner. I'm sure if I cited IDC or PC companies own quarterly reports you'd find excuses to dismiss those too.Jan 02 18:39
schestowitzIf you don't pay Gartner, they will attack youJan 02 18:39
schestowitzextortion business modelJan 02 18:40
schestowitzIDC is also bribedJan 02 18:40
matlockYup. There it is.Jan 02 18:40
schestowitzIt's owned by IDGJan 02 18:40
schestowitznow a chinese companyJan 02 18:40
schestowitzIDC is how they raise bribe moneyJan 02 18:40
schestowitzfrom LF, Microsoft etc.Jan 02 18:40
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psydroidmatlock, I hope you are enjoying your holidays and the discussions, even when you go back to work for Microsoft moneyJan 02 18:40
MinceRmatlock: can you provide actual data from a credible source?Jan 02 18:40
schestowitz 02 18:40
MinceRor only microsloth mouthpieces?Jan 02 18:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Gartner Group - TechrightsJan 02 18:40
schestowitzit's a very corrupt industry 02 18:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IDC - TechrightsJan 02 18:40
schestowitzthey also control many news sites 02 18:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IDG - TechrightsJan 02 18:41
schestowitzso if you bribe them, you will get more and better coverage ("ads" as "articles") 02 18:41
schestowitzvery dodgy and corrupt these people....Jan 02 18:41
schestowitzthey even admit so sometimesJan 02 18:41
DaemonFC[m]The hotel said I was paid up through March and now it's twlling them my check out is today.Jan 02 18:41
schestowitzusually leaks, off the recordJan 02 18:41
DaemonFC[m]Waiting for the manager to sort this out.Jan 02 18:41
schestowitzIDC counts "REVENUE"Jan 02 18:41
matlockpsydroid I don't work for Microsoft.Jan 02 18:42
schestowitzfor serverJan 02 18:42
schestowitzso overpriced WIndows looks bigger than it actually isJan 02 18:42
DaemonFC[m]I paid up through the 28th and then the tax rollback brought me to March.Jan 02 18:42
DaemonFC[m]PissedJan 02 18:42
schestowitzwhiteboxes aren't countedJan 02 18:42
MinceRmatlock: how can we tell you're not lying _this_ time?Jan 02 18:42
schestowitzmatlock: yetJan 02 18:42
schestowitzMark took the company into his handsJan 02 18:42
schestowitzso it's easier to take over, even hostile takeoverJan 02 18:42
schestowitzmaybe to Amazon, maybe HP, maybe MicrosoftJan 02 18:42
schestowitzbut sooner or later the giants seem to be taking over everything, with hedge funds in Wall Street looking for imperialistic gainsJan 02 18:43
matlockMinceR No source I find will ever be 'credible' enough for you though. They will all be 'corrupt' or 'mafia' because they don't say what you want them to say.Jan 02 18:43
schestowitzfull spectrum dominance and allJan 02 18:43
MinceRmatlock: no credible source will spread such liesJan 02 18:43
schestowitzCanonical is Isle of Man (tax evasion), actually LondonJan 02 18:43
schestowitzMark already evades tax in South AfricaJan 02 18:43
schestowitzand he was found guilty, I think he had to pay to settle itJan 02 18:43
MinceRhe could probably easily afford itJan 02 18:44
schestowitzmatlock: gartner are corrupt, we published leaksJan 02 18:44
schestowitzthey're Microsoft lobbyistysJan 02 18:44
matlockMinceR What lies are you talking about? Jan 02 18:44
schestowitzthey misuse the label 'analysts'Jan 02 18:44
schestowitzthey also derailed gnu/linux at munichJan 02 18:44
schestowitzlayer helped by HP, Accenture etc.Jan 02 18:44
MinceRmatlock: like the TCO bullshit gartner published as "independent" "analysts" but forgot to remove the microsoft copyrights onJan 02 18:44
MinceRmatlock: of course it's not surprising that "mr. i use linux but" doesn't know about microsloth's attacks against LinuxJan 02 18:45
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Microphone audio capture arrives in Linux on Chromebooks. Here's how to use it []Jan 02 18:45
MinceRmr. "Linux activity on Microsoft Surface devices is thriving"Jan 02 18:45
matlockGo check it out. ##linux-surface.Jan 02 18:46
psydroidthriving as in completely dead?Jan 02 18:46
MinceRthriving as in switching from WSL to WSL2Jan 02 18:46
MinceRoccasionallyJan 02 18:46
schestowitzit's a microsoft channelJan 02 18:47
MinceRbut spending most of the time in Idiot Exploiter, spreading microsloth marketing lies on IRC with a web clientJan 02 18:47
schestowitzI think Canonical might already be doing the Microsoft paperwork GitHub did...Jan 02 18:47
matlockI am using the new Chromium-based Edge actually. I don't know what my choice of IRC client has to do with anything but ok.Jan 02 18:48
MinceRyeah, i don't think they also want to miss out on canonical after missing out on red hatJan 02 18:48
schestowitz"We're MS!" Mark Shuttleworth (MS): "Me too!!;'Jan 02 18:48
MinceRmatlock: of course you are, what else would a microsloth munchkin use?Jan 02 18:48
matlockMinceR I really like it. Can't wait to help bring Edge to my Linux desktop devices.Jan 02 18:49
MinceRbut yeah, it's totally not Idiot Exploiter now, they changed not only the name and the logo, but even the engineJan 02 18:49
MinceRlolJan 02 18:49
MinceRand the mask comes offJan 02 18:49
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KDE Plasma Plans New Look and New App Menu for 2020 []Jan 02 18:49
MinceRquick, sell us some OfficeJan 02 18:49
matlockMinceR You mean ?Jan 02 18:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Install unofficial-webapp-office for Linux using the Snap Store | SnapcraftJan 02 18:49
MinceRi'm sure you'd prefer if we used it on Backdoors10Jan 02 18:50
schestowitz[18:49] <MinceR> and the mask comes offJan 02 18:50
schestowitznot a moment too soonJan 02 18:50
schestowitzI won't spend more time debating this here... I have better things to attend to at tuxmachines...Jan 02 18:50
MinceRafter all, part of the Outlook "webapp" deliberately only works on BackdoorsJan 02 18:50
matlockWhat mask was I wearing?Jan 02 18:50
DaemonFC[m]> but yeah, it's totally not Idiot Exploiter now, they changed not only the name and the logo, but even the engineJan 02 18:50
DaemonFC[m]Internet Exploder comes to Linux.Jan 02 18:50
MinceRthe "totally not a microshit salesperson" oneJan 02 18:51
matlockEdge is free.Jan 02 18:51
*psydroid is reminded once again why it's a good thing he got rid of Ubuntu on all architectures, now that Debian also works better on aarch64Jan 02 18:51
MinceRDaemonFC[m]: if they were smarter than they usually are, they would have changed all 3 at the same timeJan 02 18:51
psydroidfree as in lock-inJan 02 18:51
MinceRmatlock: nothing that comes from the robber barons of redmond is ever freeJan 02 18:51
DaemonFC[m]We took the resource glutton Chromium and put Telemetry in it and there you go.Jan 02 18:51
MinceRtranslator's note: "telemetry" means "spyware"Jan 02 18:51
DaemonFC[m]Customer Experience Improvement ProgramJan 02 18:52
matlockpsydroid What lock in? You can chose what browser you use.Jan 02 18:52
MinceRpsydroid: unfortunately deadian is controlled by the same people as ubuntuJan 02 18:52
DaemonFC[m]We are improving your experience. Pray we improve it no further.Jan 02 18:52
MinceRyou can choose... for now.Jan 02 18:52
MinceRmicrosuck graciously lets you choose for nowJan 02 18:52
DaemonFC[m]They got rid of the customer part because it implies a willingness to walk in and buy Windows.Jan 02 18:52
MinceRand if you're stupid enough to choose something from them, soon you'll find that you don't let you choose anymore.Jan 02 18:52
DaemonFC[m]As if there were choices.Jan 02 18:53
psydroidMinceR, I'm planning a long-term move to Redox, Helenos, Illumos/Unleashed and maybe some BSD thrown into the mixJan 02 18:53
DaemonFC[m]The other OS directed at consumers is an overpriced Unix clone that had its brains sucked out.Jan 02 18:53
DaemonFC[m]So in that context, Windows is the better of the two, but it's like the Democrats compared to the Republicans.Jan 02 18:54
MinceRi find "unix clone" a bit charitable for macosJan 02 18:54
matlockThe BDFL of Redox is employed by System76, which ships an Ubuntu derivative, might still be tainted. Better go with 9front.Jan 02 18:54
psydroidnopeJan 02 18:54
matlockYou know what my favorite UNIX is? Xenix.Jan 02 18:55
DaemonFC[m]Redox is kind of ridiculous.Jan 02 18:55
MinceRlolJan 02 18:55
MinceRredox-culousJan 02 18:55
DaemonFC[m]It took 25 years to get Linux where it is now.Jan 02 18:55
psydroidthere is no way I am going to listen to a Microsoft shill's "advice"Jan 02 18:55
matlockStill waiting to hear what I was hiding with my mask.Jan 02 18:56
MinceRmaybe you should look around in your buffer, thenJan 02 18:56
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Introducing the 2020 XPS 13 Developer Edition (Ubuntu 18.04 LTS reloaded) []Jan 02 18:56
matlockThat I was a Microsoft salesperson? I have already said I don't work for Microsoft.Jan 02 18:57
psydroida mask is usually worn to hide an extremely ugly faceJan 02 18:57
MinceRmicroshit people say all sorts of shitJan 02 18:57
MinceRlittle of it trueJan 02 18:57
matlockI think I am at least an 7.Jan 02 18:57
schestowitz 02 18:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | AstroTurfing - TechrightsJan 02 18:57
MinceRit's nice to know that microsuck still considers TR important enough to send some of their goons here from time to timeJan 02 18:58
matlockI wasn't sent by anyone, as I previously explained. I was written about, it said more was said in the IRC, so I joined the IRC with my web-based client.Jan 02 18:59
MinceRinterestingJan 02 19:00
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Cozy – Modern GTK+ 3 Audio Book Player for Linux []Jan 02 19:01
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Jan 02 19:01
psydroidone of the Microsoft moles at Canonical?Jan 02 19:02
matlockYes, I believe I have been called that. Hilarious. I even thought of changing my profile pic to a mole with an old Windows logo on his chest.Jan 02 19:03
MinceRthe new (spilled wastebasket) logo would be more appropriate for an "edge" hipsterJan 02 19:04
schestowitzCanonical hires Microsoft shillsJan 02 19:04
psydroidthat would be more fitting indeed, so that was good judgment on your sideJan 02 19:04
schestowitzI know some namesJan 02 19:04
schestowitzand some stalk me in TwitterJan 02 19:04
schestowitzinterjecting pro-Microsoft noiseJan 02 19:04
schestowitzthey pretend to be pro-LinuxJan 02 19:05
schestowitzbut lack history in itJan 02 19:05
schestowitznot a new thing btwJan 02 19:06
schestowitza decade ago they put Microsoft's Rich Spencer in charge of Ubuntu desktopJan 02 19:06
schestowitzcrazy company!Jan 02 19:06
schestowitzno wonder their community lefgtJan 02 19:06
schestowitzjono bacon works for Microsoft nowJan 02 19:06
MinceRwas that at the unity times or when they particularly pushed mono?Jan 02 19:07
schestowitzand mark dresses up like a Gitmo inmateJan 02 19:07
matlockWhen anyone mentions Ubuntu and WSL on Twitter it comes up on my TweetDeck and sometimes I have to respond, like when you called me a mole when my job is very public. I was on Linux Unplugged talking about it. Hardly a mole.Jan 02 19:07
MinceR> have to respondJan 02 19:07
MinceRis that your job then?Jan 02 19:07
schestowitz 02 19:07
schestowitzThey're juiter mediaJan 02 19:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Linux Wayback Machine | LINUX Unplugged 333 | Jupiter BroadcastingJan 02 19:08
schestowitzowned by linux acedemtJan 02 19:08
schestowitzazure partnersJan 02 19:08
schestowitzvery pro-Microsoft companuyJan 02 19:08
schestowitzso being on that show means nothingJan 02 19:08
matlockHelping users who tweet about Ubuntu on WSL on social media? Yes, it's part of my job. Responding to criticism isn't, but I still have fun with it sometimes.Jan 02 19:08
schestowitzthey also did a show with Barnes recentlyJan 02 19:08
schestowitzyesterday they promoted AzureJan 02 19:08
schestowitzas "free" courseJan 02 19:08
MinceRlol @ "helping"Jan 02 19:08
schestowitzand they got bought by a company without Linux in the name a few weeks agoJan 02 19:09
schestowitzUbuntu on WSL is not pro gnu linux but an attack on gnu linuxJan 02 19:09
schestowitzit's microsoft's way of taking over thingsJan 02 19:09
schestowitzCanonical loses loads of moneyJan 02 19:09
schestowitzso it became this desperate, begging the bully for a shareJan 02 19:10
matlockMinceR Yes, here's a recent example 02 19:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@unixterminal: @deveet93 Open command prompt. wsl --user root passwd <your user> And then enter your new preferred password. Or de… 02 19:10
rianneOk, pass on the pop corn please :-)Jan 02 19:10
MinceRinteresting choice of username for a microsoft shillJan 02 19:11
matlockSo companies without Linux in the name aren't to be trusted either? Weird standards but ok.Jan 02 19:11
MinceRno companies are to be trusted implicitlyJan 02 19:12
MinceRred hat is a pretty good exampleJan 02 19:12
matlockIn addition to my WSL work I am a bit of a UNIX anthropologist, see 02 19:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-GitHub - sirredbeard/Awesome-UNIX: All the UNIX and UNIX-Like: Linux, BSD, macOS, Illumos, 9front, and more.Jan 02 19:12
matlockThat is where my username comes from.Jan 02 19:12
MinceRamusingJan 02 19:12
MinceR 02 19:13
schestowitzoh wait....Jan 02 19:13
schestowitzmatlock IS  Barnes!!Jan 02 19:14
schestowitzunmaskedJan 02 19:14
MinceRjinkies!Jan 02 19:14
schestowitzwhy the pseudonym, Hayden?Jan 02 19:14
schestowitzlol!!!!Jan 02 19:14
matlockAgain, what mask?Jan 02 19:14
rianneNow your unmasking your face slowly and cleary.Jan 02 19:14
schestowitzand you use a pseudonumJan 02 19:15
schestowitzfor shameJan 02 19:15
schestowitz UNIX anthropologist, Jan 02 19:15
matlockI have a username but my name is set to Hayden. I have said I worked at Canonical. I am the only Hayden there. None of this was a secret.Jan 02 19:15
schestowitzlolJan 02 19:15
schestowitzwhen?Jan 02 19:15
schestowitzWhen you work for law firms in GeorgiaJan 02 19:15
schestowitz?Jan 02 19:15
schestowitzschizo much?Jan 02 19:16
schestowitzmat lock?Jan 02 19:16
schestowitzWhat does that even mean?Jan 02 19:16
schestowitzYour name is HaydenJan 02 19:16
schestowitzhayden barnesJan 02 19:16
schestowitzthat's like me going in irc by the name chris jonesJan 02 19:17
matlockMatlock is a popular TV lawyer, it's been my username on Freenode for years. My name, which is visible, is set to Hayden. I don't use my full name on IRC but that's hardly a pseudonym. Jan 02 19:17
MinceRsome matlock associated with dumbFuckBook was mentioned in one of the link posts on TRJan 02 19:18
*schestowitz superman11Jan 02 19:18
matlockIf your username was chrisjones but your IRC name was set to Roy that wouldn't be a pseudonym. I would figure chris jones was a character or something.Jan 02 19:18
---schestowitz is now known as superman11Jan 02 19:18
superman11superman is a famous movie charJan 02 19:18
MinceR:)Jan 02 19:18
---superman11 is now known as LoisLaneSheHerJan 02 19:19
psydroidso the interest in ARM IoT devices is to offer the same functionality as Windows IoT (which I am supposed to be able to run on my Orange Pi Win Plus)Jan 02 19:20
MinceR 02 19:20
MinceRBackdoors (id)IoT has functionality?Jan 02 19:20
matlockNo, Ubuntu Core.Jan 02 19:20
psydroidlike Windows Core OS?Jan 02 19:21
matlockI have no doubt that there is going to be TR article now about how after an 'investigation' it was discovered that I was masquerading on here, even though I have been completely candid about who I am, with my real first name, and who I work for. \Jan 02 19:21
psydroid<MinceR "Backdoors (id)IoT has functional"> I have no idea, I don't let malware close to my systemsJan 02 19:21
matlockNo, That is why I had to snap up the tools. Jan 02 19:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Ubuntu Core | UbuntuJan 02 19:22
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Audiocasts/Shows: Ubuntu & Canonical, BSD Now, Self-Hosted []Jan 02 19:22
matlockYou should come to the conference I am organizing. We have had to go to a waitlist because of so many attendees but if someone from the TechRights community wants to come, I will get them a pass. 02 19:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | WSLconfJan 02 19:24
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Jonathan Dowland: Linux Desktop []Jan 02 19:25
psydroidI'm not in the position to travel anywhere, I am not even sure I can make it to FOSDEM next monthJan 02 19:26
matlockI am working on a live stream option. You can register under a live stream only option which is still open.Jan 02 19:27
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU Guile 2.9.8 Released [beta] []Jan 02 19:30
---LoisLaneSheHer is now known as schestowitzJan 02 19:39
DaemonFC[m]I have to deal with everyone on the planet ripping me off or stupidly making things worse for no reason.Jan 02 19:45
DaemonFC[m]No wonder my hair is falling out.Jan 02 19:45
-->Nuve (~Nuve@unaffiliated/nuve) has joined #techrightsJan 02 19:46
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: John again?Jan 02 19:47
schestowitzMandy?Jan 02 19:47
schestowitzJondy?Jan 02 19:47
schestowitzDijon?Jan 02 19:47
MinceRlol @ WSLconfJan 02 19:48
schestowitzit's a prankJan 02 19:48
matlockI would sincerely welcome members of the Tech Rights community at WSLConf to see what we are up to. I am open to criticism, which is why I gladly engage with some of our harshest critics. Despite the juvenile name calling.Jan 02 19:51
MinceRwe already know what you are up toJan 02 19:53
MinceRespecially with a name like thatJan 02 19:53
MinceRit's yet another EEE attempt against GNU/Linux on microshit's partJan 02 19:53
matlockYou won't know what I am up to if you don't come see. Also what does my name have to do with anything?Jan 02 19:54
MinceRname being "WSLconf"Jan 02 19:57
matlockWhat about the name is no menacing?Jan 02 19:57
MinceRit is not menacingJan 02 19:58
MinceRit makes it clear that it's about WSLJan 02 19:58
MinceRwhich is yet another EEE attempt against GNU/Linux on microshit's partJan 02 19:58
MinceRas i've said alreadyJan 02 19:58
matlockHow would you know that? Have you ever used WSL?Jan 02 19:59
MinceRthankfully i was never forced to attempt to make it workJan 02 19:59
MinceRbut it's not necessaryJan 02 19:59
MinceRwhat it is is pretty publicJan 02 19:59
MinceRand knowing microsloth's history, that makes the deal pretty obviousJan 02 20:00
matlockHow would that work?Jan 02 20:01
MinceRfirst they'd get people to develop for */Linux on Backdoors using WSL and/or deploy programs written for */Linux on Backdoors using WSL, then add new "features" to WSL and get people to use them so they're stuck with having to develop/run them on BackdoorsJan 02 20:05
MinceRand then they'd hope Linux would die out because no (or not enough) programs are available for itJan 02 20:07
matlockWhat new features has Microsoft added to WSL that would prevent portability?Jan 02 20:08
schestowitzlotsJan 02 20:09
matlockWhich ones?Jan 02 20:10
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<--mmu_man has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)Jan 02 20:15
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Programming: Ruby 2.7 Released, TensorFlow in JavaScript, Java, End of Python 2.7 and More []Jan 02 20:15
XRevan86> Edge is free.Jan 02 20:27
XRevan86matlock: You mean, gratis?Jan 02 20:27
XRevan86Because last I checked it's not free software.Jan 02 20:27
psydroidfree as a puppyJan 02 20:27
MinceRlike a white elephantJan 02 20:28
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Jan 02 20:29
matlockXrevan86 Well, it's MIT (, so it's not GPL, but you can get the whole source and build yourself.Jan 02 20:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-MSEdge/LICENSE.txt at master · MicrosoftEdge/MSEdge · GitHubJan 02 20:30
MinceRand you can get very surprised when they use your dependence on Totally Not IE™ against youJan 02 20:31
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Red Hat and Fedora Leftovers []Jan 02 20:33
psydroidI never used IE, I went from Netscape Navigator to Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox even when I still used WindowsJan 02 20:33
MinceRthey made me use Idiot ExploiterJan 02 20:34
MinceRi don't miss itJan 02 20:34
matlockI rarely used IE, but I remember using Navigator and Opera way back when. I think Sun even had a Java-based browser I used too. My first browser of course as Lynx.Jan 02 20:35
psydroidHotjava it was called, but I never used that one, as I thought it was just some kind demo included with the JDKJan 02 20:37
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Hardware With Linux: Helios64 SDMC DV8919 and More []Jan 02 20:38
matlockI think it came with Java OS too.Jan 02 20:38
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Jan 02 20:39
XRevan86matlock: Is this a joke?Jan 02 20:40
matlockXRevan86 What?Jan 02 20:40
XRevan86matlock: ok, Edge is free, where are the fsckken sources?Jan 02 20:41
XRevan86Is the README MIT-licensed?Jan 02 20:41
XRevan86Is the the actual Microsoft Edge, and everything else are mere proprietary extensions to it?Jan 02 20:43
MinceRlolJan 02 20:46
matlockIf you click the link at the top of that page to the main site,, and go there you will see a link to download the source, 02 20:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Microsoft Edge InsiderJan 02 20:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Third Party DisclosuresJan 02 20:46
XRevan86> thirdpartysourceJan 02 20:46
XRevan86> thirdpartyJan 02 20:47
MinceRand the LICENSE.txt will apply to something hosted outside that repository?Jan 02 20:47
XRevan86Oh hey, FreeBSDJan 02 20:47
MinceRi really wonder how gullible i look nowJan 02 20:47
matlockThis is all made clear here: 02 20:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-GitHub - MicrosoftEdge/MSEdge: Microsoft EdgeJan 02 20:47
MinceRthose assholes never give upJan 02 20:48
matlockThere are actually several different free/open licenses involved in Chrome, but the bulk of the code is MIT.Jan 02 20:48
MinceRthe bulk of the code being, of courseJan 02 20:48
matlockSo we are now mad about the domain name where the source is hosted and where the license file is hosted?Jan 02 20:49
XRevan86Based on free software == free softwareJan 02 20:49
XRevan86Great free software there, Microsoft.Jan 02 20:49
MinceR 02 20:49
XRevan86matlock: No, I'm concerned that you're pointing to Chromium sources as Microsoft Edge sources.Jan 02 20:50
matlockYes, it is based on Chromium, which is generally accepted free software.Jan 02 20:50
XRevan86I don't care if it's based on DOSBoxJan 02 20:50
MinceRmaybe that's how it worksJan 02 20:50
MinceRyou build chromium and run it and pretend it's edgeJan 02 20:51
XRevan86Humans and chimps share 98.8% of DNAJan 02 20:52
XRevan86"I asked for a human worker"Jan 02 20:52
matlockWhen you asked I linked you to the sources, an explainer about the project, and the license on Microsoft's GitHub repository. I am sorry this upset you so much.Jan 02 20:52
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XRevan86matlock: And then I said that Chromium sources do not count.Jan 02 20:54
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XRevan86If one makes a fork of non-copyleft free software, it isn't suddenly free software itselfJan 02 20:55
matlockI didn't point you to Chromium sources. Those are at Jan 02 20:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Get the Code: Checkout, Build, & Run Chromium - The Chromium ProjectsJan 02 20:55
matlockDid you know that building Chromium for 32-bit still requires 64-bit because you have to have more than 4GB of RAM to build Chromium?Jan 02 20:56
XRevan86matlock: I do.Jan 02 20:56
matlockI think that's funny.Jan 02 20:57
*XRevan86 is trying to find any download link on 02 20:58
XRevan86> Microsoft makes certain open source code available at, or you may send a check or money order for US $5.00, including the product name, the opens source component name, architecture, and version numberJan 02 20:58
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Third Party DisclosuresJan 02 20:58
matlockPut 'edge' in the filter on the top left, then click the 'last' button on the bottom right, scroll down, those are the most recent pre-release sources for Edge.Jan 02 20:59
matlockThere are versions for x86, x64, and arm64, pick the one for the version and platform you want and click download.Jan 02 21:00
matlockIt's pretty cool they would send you a copy of the source on physical media if you can't download it, like on a limited connection. I didn't know about that. Not a lot of companies do that.Jan 02 21:02
XRevan86Would've been so cool if they shared a VCS insteadJan 02 21:03
XRevan86in 40 minutes I'll download sources for "Windows x64", even though all I want is browse gitJan 02 21:03
matlockI agree that would be better. I am not a big fan of the code-dump approach. Apple does that with it's OS sources.Jan 02 21:04
XRevan86Everyone who doesn't want any contributions does thatJan 02 21:04
matlockThat's why I linked you to the GitHub-hosted explainer and license first, but you instead you mocked me for that.Jan 02 21:06
MinceR"our fork of chromium needs an explainer"Jan 02 21:07
MinceR"is edge free?" "wait, i can explain!"Jan 02 21:07
matlockIt gives the history, thinking, and mission of the project. Most projects have an 'About' page, but I know Microsoft did it so you can't be rational about it.Jan 02 21:08
XRevan86matlock: I've skimmed through itJan 02 21:09
XRevan86matlock: It may be hard to believe, but I don't care about their MissionJan 02 21:09
XRevan86I just want sources… in a palatable formJan 02 21:10
XRevan86Different sources for different OS' and architectures is pretty suspicious.Jan 02 21:12
matlockIt's not ideal. I wonder if it has something to do with all the Google stuff that spied on users they had to rip out and re-build.Jan 02 21:20
matlockBut this is actually really good feedback. I am going to let my contact on the Edge team know that the current sources is a sub-optimal process and see what they say. Jan 02 21:23
XRevan86"we hadn't notice"Jan 02 21:24
MinceRwould microshit ever tell what their actual intention is with any particular project?Jan 02 21:24
XRevan86dJan 02 21:24
MinceR02 221221 < XRevan86> Different sources for different OS' and architectures is pretty suspicious.Jan 02 21:24
MinceRmaybe nobody told them about #if and #ifdefJan 02 21:24
matlockMinceR Yes. Most people in the world are acting in good faith, even the ones doing things we don't like.Jan 02 21:26
MinceRi'm not so sure about thatJan 02 21:26
MinceRbut it's pretty well documented that microsloth management rarely if ever acts in good faithJan 02 21:26
MinceRtheir internal documents (e.g. Halloween Documents or what came up in the m$ vs Comes case) are quite tellingJan 02 21:27
XRevan86MinceR: But they've reformed!Jan 02 21:27
MinceRsureJan 02 21:27
MinceRthey keep saying thatJan 02 21:27
XRevan86They're literally saintsJan 02 21:27
MinceRand they keep doing the old shit they've always doneJan 02 21:27
XRevan86I don't believe in god or saints, except for Microsoft managementJan 02 21:28
MinceR:DJan 02 21:28
MinceRthey haven't even stopped their patent abuses against companies selling Linux devicesJan 02 21:28
MinceRdespite the whole "Microsoft <3 Linux" bullshit campaignJan 02 21:28
MinceRbut for most people it's apparently unnecessaryJan 02 21:28
MinceRthrowing a bit of money around on ad campaigns is all it takes to convince most people of anythingJan 02 21:29
matlockThey cross-licensed their patents with the OIN, which I know you will automatically discount because it's connected to Red Hat, but in the real world that's a big deal.Jan 02 21:29
MinceRyou don't even know what the real world isJan 02 21:29
MinceRyou read microshit puff pieces in microshit media outlets and believe it's the real worldJan 02 21:30
matlockI read critical news outlets. I am in an IRC channel right now with people who hate me.Jan 02 21:31
MinceRand mentally block all of it, apparentlyJan 02 21:33
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matlockNo, but it is hard to take people credibly when they name call me and make up conspiracy theories about me.Jan 02 21:33
matlockBut hey, I use a web-based IRC client, so, you know.Jan 02 21:35
XRevan86 02 21:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-On Privacy versus Freedom | Matrix.orgJan 02 21:38
MinceRi didn't name-call you amidst the beginning of the propaganda you spewedJan 02 21:40
matlockMinceR You have called me an asshole, a shill, hipster, a liar, a microsloth mouthpiece, said I worked for the mafia, a fanboyJan 02 21:44
matlockRoy called me a "schizo" for some reason so I guess name calling is just normalized here. Someone yesterday mocked my username in a thinly veiled attempt to mock me. It is clear there is a lot of toxicity here and outright hostility to dissenting viewpoints.Jan 02 21:49
MinceRi probably did, _after_ i got tired of the propaganda you spewedJan 02 21:52
Hail_Spacecakeanyone can accuse their political enemy's arguments of being propagandaJan 02 21:58
Hail_Spacecakeclaiming something is propaganda means nothingJan 02 21:58
Hail_Spacecakeother than that you dislike itJan 02 21:58
XRevan86Hail_Spacecake: This is Trotskyist propaganda!Jan 02 21:58
matlockSo you engaged in voluntary discussion with me, didn't like what I was saying, and instead of deciding to end the conversation or mute me, you decided just to resort to name-calling. Funny because you were the one lamenting SJWs and crybullies yesterday.Jan 02 21:58
pav5088Juvenile?  It's pragmatism - Linus is famous for that kind of thing.  It ends the conversation.  Patience isn't a virtue when there are better things to spend brain cycles on.Jan 02 21:59
Hail_Spacecakematlock: what is WSL?Jan 02 21:59
XRevan86Hail_Spacecake: Windows Subsystem for LinuxJan 02 21:59
XRevan86Hail_Spacecake: Bundled Linux inside WindowsJan 02 21:59
Hail_SpacecakeahJan 02 22:00
Hail_SpacecakeI don't personally care about itJan 02 22:00
Hail_SpacecakeI only use windows for non-linux gamesJan 02 22:00
Hail_SpacecakeI guess I care about instrumentally if it somehow makes it easier for game developers to make games that run on linuxJan 02 22:00
matlockThe Frostbrite Engine, made by DICE, is made in part with WSL.Jan 02 22:01
XRevan86Hail_Spacecake: WSL is not focused on the graphical/visual part at all.Jan 02 22:01
Hail_SpacecakeI do think that's a lot of the effective challenge in porting games to linuxJan 02 22:02
Hail_Spacecakebut I'm nto a gamedev myselfJan 02 22:02
matlockWSL isn't good for games but can be useful for game development. Using WSL DICE was able to port the server-side of the Frostbite engine to Linux.Jan 02 22:02
XRevan86> the server-sideJan 02 22:02
XRevan86That makes sense.Jan 02 22:02
Hail_Spacecakeanyway from a free software perspective, most pc games are not freeJan 02 22:03
Hail_Spacecakeand are not really amenable to being clonedJan 02 22:03
Hail_Spacecakebut I'm not a hardcore stalmaniteJan 02 22:03
Hail_SpacecakeI'm willing to accept non-free gamesJan 02 22:03
Hail_SpacecakeI care more about building abstractions that allow me to guarantee that a closed-source game provably cannot do anything malicious on the system I run it onJan 02 22:04
Hail_Spacecakematlock: do you work for microsoft?Jan 02 22:04
matlockIt makes perfect sense XRevan86. People are running Windows on gaming PCs and Xbox and connecting to Linux servers to run it all.Jan 02 22:04
matlockHail_Spacecake I do not work for Microsoft, I work for Canonical on WSL and Hyper-V related projects.Jan 02 22:04
MinceRah, so not wasting my time trying to convince a microshit cultist of the truth is being an SJWJan 02 22:04
XRevan86matlock: I know, just the other day when discussing WSL I said almost exactly thatJan 02 22:05
MinceRinterestingJan 02 22:05
Hail_Spacecakeoh no you said you don'tJan 02 22:05
Hail_Spacecakethere's a lot of scrollbackJan 02 22:05
Hail_SpacecakeI'm trying to figure out what the point of contention here isJan 02 22:05
MinceRyou're trying, but you've already made your judgementJan 02 22:05
Hail_Spacecakematlock: are you in south africa?Jan 02 22:05
Hail_SpacecakeI don't know where all of canonical's people workJan 02 22:06
MinceRthey work?Jan 02 22:06
matlockHail_Spacecake No, I am in the US. Canonical is 90% remote, employees work all over the world. We come together in various places throughout the year to plan and do sprints.Jan 02 22:06
Hail_Spacecakeanyway I don't like to use windows for the standard software freedom reasons + it spies on youJan 02 22:07
Hail_Spacecakebut I do accept it to play specific video gamesJan 02 22:07
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Hail_SpacecakeI don't object to the windows subsystem for linux existing, but I wouldn't use it becuase like I said I only use windows for one specific thingJan 02 22:07
Hail_Spacecakewhich I'm not pleased aboutJan 02 22:07
matlockI think everyone should use what makes them happy. \Jan 02 22:08
XRevan86weed?Jan 02 22:08
matlockAbsolutely.Jan 02 22:08
matlockBut Steam, Crossover, Wine Project, and that whole thing are making big gains for gaming on Linux, so maybe in time that will be an option for you Hail_Spacecake.Jan 02 22:09
MinceRi guess trolling on IRC is now "work"Jan 02 22:10
matlockI have explained that I am off work for the holidays, I am here on my accord, and I am not officially representing my employer or Microsoft here.Jan 02 22:10
XRevan86matlock: Would you consider Microsoft to play a part in GNU/Linux gaming?Jan 02 22:11
MinceRyeah, you're astroturfing on your own accordJan 02 22:11
MinceRmicrosoft's part in gnu/linux gaming is pretty clearJan 02 22:11
matlockMinceR If you feel trolled by my generally very polite responses to your name-calling and hateful vitriol, I am sorry.Jan 02 22:11
MinceRthey've bought the Microsoft Linux FoundationJan 02 22:11
MinceRthey'll eventually make their ownership of Linux officialJan 02 22:11
matlockXRevan86 No, I don't.Jan 02 22:11
MinceRmatlock: did you dream anything else?Jan 02 22:11
Hail_Spacecakematlock: yeah most steam games I want to play do work on linuxJan 02 22:12
Hail_Spacecakesome don'tJan 02 22:12
Hail_Spacecakeanyway from a stallmanite perspective, steam is as non-free as windowsJan 02 22:12
Hail_Spacecakeand so are nearly all steam gamesJan 02 22:12
Hail_Spacecakerms is prone to the kinda-silly lame pun insult of proprietary software company thingJan 02 22:12
Hail_Spacecakebut he's not wrong about the video games I personally want to play being unfreeJan 02 22:13
matlockI am hoping that the increasing popularity of app stores for Linux and the Steam/CrossOver/Wine thing (not sure what that whole is called) will spur more games. It would be nice if AAA games were crossplatform Win/Linux/macOS on launch.Jan 02 22:14
danielp3344matlock: TBH if I just wanted to play AAA games I'd buy a console or use a windows VMJan 02 22:15
danielp3344But games aren't fun if you can't hack/clone themJan 02 22:15
danielp3344most of the games that have really long term followings are freeJan 02 22:16
matlockEndless, the people behind Endless OS, has put out some games through a new gaming studio they have. It's sort-of open source but they restrict redistribution to an extent.Jan 02 22:16
danielp3344matlock: linkJan 02 22:16
danielp3344?*Jan 02 22:16
matlock 02 22:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Terminal TwoJan 02 22:17
pav5088Free Software = progressive...   Open Source = corp centrist.  The centrists "won" ie. tech indie media was bought out, steering committees were stocked with corporate flunkies etc...   though the average geek is beginning to understand what they've lost, and it's interesting to watch the backlash growing.Jan 02 22:18
Hail_Spacecakematlock: I've definitely noticed more cross-platform games than there used to beJan 02 22:18
MinceR"sort-of open source", also known as "not open source"Jan 02 22:19
Hail_Spacecakepav5088: I don't think that's quite an accurate characterizationJan 02 22:19
danielp3344is there source?Jan 02 22:19
Hail_SpacecakeI think it's better to say that open-source software won in the PC-centered world of software you run on your own computerJan 02 22:19
MinceRi'm not sure if the average geek is beginning to understand anythingJan 02 22:19
Hail_Spacecakebut, simultaneously, people doing their computing on other people's servers, often via smartphones, became a way more common mode of computer useJan 02 22:20
danielp3344I see no sourceJan 02 22:20
Hail_Spacecakeand that's something that the FSF was genuinely bad at fighting politicallyJan 02 22:20
danielp3344imagine making a game about programming without any source lolJan 02 22:20
Hail_Spacecakebecause software freedom does in fact imply the freedom to run software on your own server for the purpose of making it available to people as a free webapp, as long as they give you enough personal data to monetizeJan 02 22:21
Hail_Spacecakegranted, facebook's stack isn't entirely free software, but even if it was it wouldn't make much of a difference wrt what is good and bad about facebookJan 02 22:21
Hail_Spacecakeor twitter or google or any other large software companyJan 02 22:22
Hail_Spacecakeso you have this problem where companies are genuinely using and contributing to free software projects, the way that it was intendedJan 02 22:22
pav5088MinceR : I had a friend who worked for Amazon...  and another who works for a Microsoft subcontractor...   Not really a large sample...   but eg. when Bernie Sanders has to help conservative IBM geeks get back their pensions I think the realisation is pretty deep.Jan 02 22:22
Hail_Spacecakebut those companies are also violating user compute freedom in a sort of roundabout way that the FSF didn't considerJan 02 22:22
matlockdanielp3344 I can't find source now, they have definitely hidden it if it's out there, but when I found it before it had a weird license and I could tell they were trying to be kinda open while balancing the needs of a gameJan 02 22:23
Hail_Spacecakeanyone here care about urbit, btw?Jan 02 22:23
danielp3344<matlock "Daniel Peterson I can't find sou"> needs?Jan 02 22:23
MinceRpav5088: and what are those friends beginning to understand?Jan 02 22:23
MinceRpav5088: i think if the average geek was beginning to understand anything, systemd-free GNU/Linux distros wouldn't all be "obscure"Jan 02 22:23
Hail_SpacecakeI don't think it's well defined who anyone is thinking about, when they say "average geek"Jan 02 22:24
Hail_Spacecakeone of the other trends of the previous decade is people who are decidedly not geeks at allJan 02 22:24
Hail_Spacecakebecoming the vast majority of people who use softwareJan 02 22:24
pav5088pav5088, both those people were big "open source" people... anti-Stallman "pragmatic" etc...  but I think their opinion has changed somewhat.Jan 02 22:24
Hail_Spacecakeand who have concerns about how large software companies operate that are not at all geek concernsJan 02 22:24
pav5088MinceR, Jan 02 22:25
pav5088oopsJan 02 22:25
Hail_Spacecakeneither free nor open source software has anything to say about whether or not jack should ban the nazisJan 02 22:25
MinceRpav5088: i seeJan 02 22:25
Hail_Spacecakebitcoin is free software but I bet rms wouldn't like itJan 02 22:26
MinceRi guess they'll live to see the full effects of all those "pragmatic" people doing "pragmatic" things :>Jan 02 22:26
Hail_Spacecakebut lots of other people do like itJan 02 22:26
Hail_SpacecakeMinceR: what specific bad effects are you worried about?Jan 02 22:26
Hail_Spacecakelike, you personallyJan 02 22:26
MinceRthe end of Linux, GNU and FSFJan 02 22:26
MinceRthe end of general purpose computersJan 02 22:27
MinceRperhaps even the end of the IT industry and human societyJan 02 22:27
Hail_SpacecakeI'm more worried about that from a hardware perspectiveJan 02 22:27
MinceRyeah, general purpose computers are hardware :>Jan 02 22:27
Hail_Spacecakeas long as PC-like hardwar exists, someone can port linux to itJan 02 22:27
MinceRPC-like hardware is pretty much already deadJan 02 22:27
MinceRwe have UEFI appliances instead, waiting for the final steps of microshit locking it downJan 02 22:28
Hail_Spacecakebut what if no one builds a PC that has an unlocked bootloader, just like how nearlyno one builds android phones like this?Jan 02 22:28
MinceRexactlyJan 02 22:28
cubexyzIt's not dead, gigabyte works with corebootJan 02 22:28
Hail_Spacecakehow do you solve that problem by fighting microsoft though?Jan 02 22:28
Hail_Spacecakethat's a problem with a bunch of random asian companies that actually produce the hardwareJan 02 22:28
Hail_Spacecakeor with intelJan 02 22:28
MinceRmy UEFI appliances can still pretend they have a BIOS, but intel announced they're killing CSM off this yearJan 02 22:28
MinceRmicrosloth controls them with the threat of hiking the license fee of BackdoorsJan 02 22:29
MinceRas for intel, i'm not sure what's going on there but they're acting an awful lot like a sockpuppet for the robber barons of redmondJan 02 22:29
MinceRfor example with UEFIJan 02 22:29
pav5088When I was at university the old Unix nerds were similarly jaded, except back then it was about the Unix wars - they abandoned BSDs (= fragmentation) to support Linux even though it was less well developed because the GNU public license was stronger than MIT, and stopped proprietary forks.  It's kind of like history is repeating, and we're due for a backlash now.Jan 02 22:29
MinceRwith PE, FAT and other microsuck shit built inJan 02 22:29
cubexyzand I believe XRevan86 said he uses coreboot on thinkpad X230Jan 02 22:29
MinceRnot even a gesture to competitorsJan 02 22:29
cubexyznot sure how old X230 is thoughJan 02 22:30
MinceRand AMD follows pretty much every evil thing intel does, so x86 will probably be locked down soonJan 02 22:30
Hail_Spacecakelinux can run on ARMJan 02 22:30
Hail_Spacecakebut can you buy an ARM laptop?Jan 02 22:30
MinceRARM devices also tend to be locked downJan 02 22:30
cubexyzMinceR, what would you recommend?Jan 02 22:31
Hail_Spacecakethat's a hardware problemJan 02 22:31
MinceRand there's hardly enough information about what TrustZone doesJan 02 22:31
Hail_Spacecakeyou can't solve that with software licensesJan 02 22:31
MinceRcubexyz: there are no products i can recommendJan 02 22:31
danielp3344MinceR: sure there areJan 02 22:31
MinceRonly attempting to build computers based on open cores and FPGAs, but it will be slowJan 02 22:31
Hail_Spacecakeyeah, but I think something like that is necessaryJan 02 22:31
danielp3344POWER, RISC-VJan 02 22:31
Hail_Spacecakeand it's not in the wheelhouse of the FSF or GNU, except purely ideologicallyJan 02 22:31
MinceRis there a core that implements RISC-V yet?Jan 02 22:31
danielp3344MinceR: indeedJan 02 22:32
MinceRhow can we tell it's not backdoored like intel cpus are?Jan 02 22:32
XRevan86cubexyz: 2012Jan 02 22:32
MinceRhow can we tell POWER cpus are not backdoored that way?Jan 02 22:32
danielp3344one secondJan 02 22:32
danielp3344(there's actually more than one)Jan 02 22:32
danielp3344<MinceR "how can we tell it's not backdoo"> read the HDLJan 02 22:32
cubexyzMinceR, I'm almost surprised you don't have a PDP-11 :)Jan 02 22:32
MinceRhow can we tell whichever fab we have manufacture them doesn't add their backdoors to it?Jan 02 22:33
danielp3344MinceR: 02 22:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | HiFive Unleashed | Crowd SupplyJan 02 22:33
MinceRcubexyz: there's no room for a PDP-11 here :(Jan 02 22:33
danielp3344MinceR: it would be noticeable I thinkJan 02 22:33
MinceRthough i suppose _maybe_ it's possible for someone who's knowledgeable enough to order a shipment of 1000 CPUs based on an open design, randomly select 10, de-cap and audit themJan 02 22:33
cubexyzMinceR, I was thinking you could keep recapping old motherboards that are pre-UEFIJan 02 22:34
MinceRi don't know if it's even something we can rely onJan 02 22:34
cubexyznot ideal, but still better than nothingJan 02 22:34
MinceRcubexyz: well, i have a ThinkPad X60s, that's pre-UEFI and pre-IMEJan 02 22:34
XRevan86cubexyz: There are newer laptops that coreboot supports.Jan 02 22:34
danielp3344Someday I want to buy a few thousand transistors and build a computerJan 02 22:34
MinceRdoable but it would be very slowJan 02 22:34
danielp3344even a simple oneJan 02 22:34
MinceRand slow computers aren't that useful for cryptography/security purposesJan 02 22:35
danielp3344but they're funJan 02 22:35
MinceR:)Jan 02 22:35
danielp3344and very auditableJan 02 22:35
MinceRin fact, ever since i realized it might not be feasible to produce a computer PCB at home, even the PCB could be backdoored for all i knowJan 02 22:35
danielp3344MinceR: I think it should be possible to detect cpu backdoors by analyzing power usage Jan 02 22:36
MinceRi doubt itJan 02 22:36
XRevan86My usage of coreboot also means that I don't have UEFI, as I don't want to deal with TianocoreJan 02 22:36
MinceRcpus are extremely complexJan 02 22:36
danielp3344MinceR: they shouldn't beJan 02 22:36
MinceR:)Jan 02 22:36
XRevan86And even if I had used Tianocore, I'd still probably lack any Secure Boot supportJan 02 22:37
danielp3344It's not actually secure, you're not missing anythingJan 02 22:37
MinceRmicroshit hipsters will laugh at youJan 02 22:37
MinceR"what, you don't even have Secure Boot?"Jan 02 22:37
pav5088MinceR, I was looking for an updated version of the old "paperclip computer" book from the 1960's...   Building my own computer from logic gates during my computer architecture course was fun...  and making one from household items would be next level.Jan 02 22:38
danielp3344MinceR: am I supposed to care?Jan 02 22:38
danielp3344pav5088: what sort of items?Jan 02 22:38
MinceRno :)Jan 02 22:38
XRevan86MinceR: I don't know how my computer continues to work without itJan 02 22:38
pav5088danielp3344, well...  the original book involved paperclips, a tin can (for "drum memory"), light bulbs (LEDs are the logical choice these days) etc...Jan 02 22:39
danielp3344mmmJan 02 22:39
pav5088I didn't look far enough into it to work out how they were making their logic gates.Jan 02 22:39
danielp3344a mechanical computer?Jan 02 22:39
pav5088No, digital.Jan 02 22:39
danielp3344yeah I was going to ask...Jan 02 22:40
matlockIt's kind of funny a minimal MINIX is running in there.Jan 02 22:40
danielp3344how do you make gates...Jan 02 22:40
danielp3344matlock: IME?Jan 02 22:40
matlockYup.Jan 02 22:40
danielp3344yeah stay clear of thatJan 02 22:40
MinceR 02 22:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | This whopping 16-bit computer processor is being built by hand, transistor by transistor • The RegisterJan 02 22:40
danielp3344MinceR: beautiful Jan 02 22:41
pav5088danielp3344, apparently transistors and resistors...Jan 02 22:41
danielp3344pav5088: ohJan 02 22:41
danielp3344RTL, funJan 02 22:41
MinceR 02 22:43
XRevan86scientes got to reference Putin, I'll do it tooJan 02 22:45
XRevan86MinceR: 02 22:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Vladimir Putin announces 'Russians will go to Heaven as martyrs' - YouTubeJan 02 22:45
pav5088danielp3344, I did the same thing with AND-gate chips...  so I was more interested in how they handled IO, storage etc...Jan 02 22:45
MinceRXRevan86: good for themJan 02 22:46
XRevan86MinceR: The title is incompleteJan 02 22:46
MinceR 02 22:50
Hail_Spacecakepav5088: it's pretty easy to find information online about how to build from parts a computer that's as good as a 1960s computerJan 02 22:51
Hail_Spacecakethe problem is doing this for a 1990s era computerJan 02 22:51
Hail_Spacecakelet alone a modern computerJan 02 22:51
MinceRindeedJan 02 22:51
MinceRi wonder how difficult would it be to backdoor an FPGA so that it will give an attacker access to an open core that's written onto itJan 02 22:52
matlockHail_Spacecake Do you think it would be possible from the 486 or early Pentium era?Jan 02 22:53
pav5088Hail_Spacecake, I wasn't talking about doing something practical...  just for fun...Jan 02 22:54
Hail_Spacecakematlock: I do  not knowJan 02 22:54
MinceRi suppose if it provides registers then those could be remotely read/written but one doesn't have to use themJan 02 22:54
Hail_Spacecakefor instance I've watched ben eater's youtube videos on mkaing 8 bit computersJan 02 22:54
Hail_Spacecakeon a breadboardJan 02 22:54
Hail_Spacecakemaybe you could use those sorts of techniques to make like a 4 MHz 8 bit cpu?Jan 02 22:54
Hail_Spacecakewith commodore 64 amounts of ram?Jan 02 22:55
matlockThe ISA bus from that era was pretty open. I also wonder if the government ever built a machine from scratch, which you could obtain specs for through FOIA.Jan 02 22:57
matlockIBM and other makers gave the BIOS source code to customers at the time, usually printed, which would have included the government.Jan 02 22:58
cubexyzjust fill your house with pre-UEFI computers :)Jan 02 23:08
cubexyzColumbia Data Products made the first IBM PC clone in 1982Jan 02 23:09
cubexyzright, so in the olden days therer were no restrictions on OS via BIOSJan 02 23:09
cubexyzyou could install CP/M, MS-DOS, Minix, etc Jan 02 23:10
danielp3344theoretically could you build a computer with a low clock speed but very wide bus out of discrete components that would compete with modern cpus?Jan 02 23:11
danielp3344like a 256bit busJan 02 23:11
cubexyzwell, in the very old days, yesJan 02 23:12
danielp3344I mean nowJan 02 23:12
danielp3344if you had a very fast aluJan 02 23:12
danielp3344that could do lots in parallelJan 02 23:12
cubexyzI don't see how you could without VLSIJan 02 23:14
MinceRwell, if you really wanted to be secure, they'd also need to be pre-speculative execution as well :>Jan 02 23:15
cubexyzdiscrete components would also get a lot hotter even at low CPU speedsJan 02 23:16
matlockLiquid cooled 8086 server farmJan 02 23:16
cubexyzyou just can't do modern video without VLSI chipsJan 02 23:17
danielp3344cubexyz: who needs video when you have a ttyJan 02 23:18
matlockASCII moviesJan 02 23:18
cubexyzyou could probably do tty sure, just like the PDP-8 did, but then you're going back to the 1960's eraJan 02 23:19
danielp3344cubexyz: Unfortunately I missed them by about 40 years :PJan 02 23:19
danielp3344But that's OK with meJan 02 23:19
XRevan86mpv -vo cacaJan 02 23:20
cubexyzdanielinux, you'd probably like the early Z80 eraJan 02 23:20
cubexyzoops sorryJan 02 23:20
cubexyzdanielp3344Jan 02 23:20
cubexyzyou could etch your own motherboards, fit all the chips, wire-wrap, and prestro: Z80 microcomputerJan 02 23:21
cubexyzthat's using VLSI chips stillJan 02 23:21
danielp3344yeah z80 is coolJan 02 23:22
danielp3344but not very fastJan 02 23:22
*DaemonFC[m] sent a long message: < >Jan 02 23:23
DaemonFC[m]I've watched that movie too much.Jan 02 23:23
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: I forgot the EMH was in that movieJan 02 23:24
cubexyznowadays I've seen people throw 486s, pentiums and even P3's in the trashJan 02 23:24
cubexyzbut I still have a working amiga 500, so I got the MC68000 coveredJan 02 23:24
danielp3344cubexyz: if you don't get a datasheet it's not a real cpuJan 02 23:26
cubexyzhttp://c74project.comJan 02 23:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | C74-6502 CPU – A Homemade TTL 6502Jan 02 23:29
cubexyzso yeah, TTL 6502 existsJan 02 23:29
MinceR   ( )Jan 02 23:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-That was the last we saw of him... - Album on ImgurJan 02 23:34
DaemonFC[m]I'd put DOS on an old x86 system, myself.Jan 02 23:35
DaemonFC[m]I had a 486 with FreeDOS up until like 2012.Jan 02 23:35
DaemonFC[m]The hard disk finally crashed.Jan 02 23:35
matlockDo a lot of pro-Microsoft people come here?Jan 02 23:44
MinceRway too many, yesJan 02 23:44
MinceRthough it seems that their astroturfing budget has shrunk somewhat since the boycottnovell daysJan 02 23:45
matlockI just haven't seen anyone in the past couple days I have been lurking and participating here that would come close to 'overwhelming' as described here: 02 23:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Must have stuck a major nerve again. #microsoft boosters overwhelming the #irc channels of #techrights again this w… 02 23:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Must have stuck a major nerve again. #microsoft boosters overwhelming the #irc channels of #techrights again this w… 02 23:49
MinceRi would have been surprised if you said "yeah, we've really swarmed the channel lately"Jan 02 23:52

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