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| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Aug 5 08:11:26 2008 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 5 08:13:40 2008 |
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Aug 05 08:13 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged) | Aug 05 08:13 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Wed Jun 4 08:34:16 2008 | Aug 05 08:13 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: Tony(UK) is getting a hammering from hadron, but can't seem to give up responding... | Aug 05 09:03 |
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| kentma | btw - have you seen bubba2? | Aug 05 09:04 |
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| schestowitz | [Just came back] I haven't, no. Was it in LinuxWorld? | Aug 05 10:41 |
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| schestowitz | Mono revolt? http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2008/08/04/... | Aug 05 10:51 |
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| schestowitz | Bill Beebe is now having a go at us... *sigh* http://blogbeebe.blogspot.com/2008/08/bo... | Aug 05 10:55 |
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| schestowitz | (Offenders of decency) That old rant that Bill Beebe cites comes from a Novell defender (maybe affiliated with them, but I was never sure). He later resorted to personal vulgar attacks, insults, racism, and all sort of ugly things that made people want to look away. I'd like to hear Bill's opinion, not by association. Bill used to actually have us in his blogroll and is/was a reader. | Aug 05 11:00 |
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| kentma | interesting - I think these instructions on how to remove mono should be published/highlighted wherever possible! | Aug 05 11:03 |
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| kentma | There doesn't seem to be much of an impact, and it offers protection against future infection. It might be a good idea to create an apt directive to prevent it ever being installed again, too. | Aug 05 11:04 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: he's not alone (Mono antagonism). There have been some popular pages with instructions. Some attribute this habit to us. | Aug 05 11:05 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: it's done. Let me find it. | Aug 05 11:06 |
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| kentma | ok | Aug 05 11:06 |
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| schestowitz | http://lost-midnight.blogspot.com/200... .... "Blog has been removed" Hmmm.... | Aug 05 11:08 |
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| kentma | Indeed... I wonder how long before the latest article is also removed. | Aug 05 11:08 |
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| schestowitz | I can't find it, but there were some very popular pages about it, some of whim submitted to Digg and made the front page. | Aug 05 11:10 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: the removal is not related to this, I don't think so. See the comment at the bottom ( http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07... ) which has it said by a Microsoft senior. Mono is _only_ for Novell. | Aug 05 11:11 |
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| kentma | Indeed, I've seen that a couple of times - it's a very important quote, and shows what Microsoft /really/ think on this subject. | Aug 05 11:12 |
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| schestowitz | Good cap, bad cop. Ramji: "Look at me. I'm smiling, I wear a Firefox T-shirt, Ozzie pays me handsomely and I now want to be your friend." Ballmer: "We believe that every Linux users has a balance sheet liability." And then they start behind-the-scenes extortion, demanding money for Linux from top companies. | Aug 05 11:14 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft tried sending a gentle female to the do the talking, to soften the rival... http://www.linux.com/feature/143771 | Aug 05 11:15 |
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| schestowitz | Foxconn tried the same when they sent "Miss Heart" to apologise to the Linux community (Ubuntu Forums, then Slashdot). They always send someone that's hard to attack. Just 'damage control'... as Phoronix said "Foxconn hates Linux support", but here they are distorting the facts now. | Aug 05 11:17 |
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| kentma | They are amazingly manipulative - I'm always surprised at how many people fall for the overt manipulation, like sending someone all cuddly to say sorry, for example - how stupid do they think we are? Well, obviously, stupid enough to fall for such an overt trick. | Aug 05 11:19 |
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| kentma | Or dressing someone in a Firefox T-shirt - big deal. | Aug 05 11:19 |
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| schestowitz | Watch the advert on the right. It's on every bloody page of what used to be a good blog. http://weblog.infoworld.com/openresource/ | Aug 05 11:21 |
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| schestowitz | BTW: It's the same in Datamation (Jupitermedia) now. Who would entertain such stuff? They advertise monopolyware (Microsoft stack) and use FOSS devs as "pawns" (to use their own words, as discovered in leaked memos). | Aug 05 11:30 |
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| schestowitz | Making money selling abuse (or selling out) versus making it using sex of violence... http://www.itwire.com/content/vi... | Aug 05 11:30 |
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| schestowitz | Cool. Just found: http://tombuntu.com/index.php/2008/08/... I want some 3D ripples or something to notify upon activity in IRC. | Aug 05 11:38 |
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| ZiggyFish | been there done that | Aug 05 12:22 |
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| ZiggyFish | (got the tea-shirt) :P | Aug 05 12:23 |
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| schestowitz | It's a bit distraction though. "tidal (title) wave". | Aug 05 12:23 |
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| ZiggyFish | for IRC activity, though, I set it so that it makes a sound (when you say me nick, I heard a sieron, otherwise just a click sound) | Aug 05 12:25 |
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| schestowitz | The problem is that I have music playing. | Aug 05 12:25 |
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| ZiggyFish | (that sieron scares you when your not ready for it though, and the volumes up) | Aug 05 12:26 |
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| schestowitz | Blinking used to work, but the system monitor is distracting, so it's easy to miss the blinking. | Aug 05 12:27 |
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| ZiggyFish | yeah, same, that's why I go with sound now | Aug 05 12:28 |
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| ZiggyFish | what IRC client do you use? | Aug 05 12:29 |
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| schestowitz | Xchat. I used mirc like 12 years ago. | Aug 05 12:29 |
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| ZiggyFish | I some times use that, but now I use pidgin | Aug 05 12:30 |
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| schestowitz | I don't IM, so I'll stick with what I have, I guess. | Aug 05 12:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | oh, ok | Aug 05 12:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | have you done the daily links today? | Aug 05 13:21 |
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| schestowitz | Not yet. I did one last night. There's only good news so far today. | Aug 05 13:22 |
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| ZiggyFish | lol, that's ok. | Aug 05 13:23 |
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| ZiggyFish | (been busy lately, so I haven't spent as much time on the Linux news as I normally would) | Aug 05 13:24 |
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| schestowitz | As I'm writing some posts, I'm coming to realise that Microsoft put so much money on so many tables that there's no longer much trust in Linux sites and events. | Aug 05 14:21 |
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| schestowitz | I'm writing about OSCON coverage from linux.com at the moment. Both LINUX.com and OS[Open Source]CON have Microsoft as a Diamond Sponsor. | Aug 05 14:22 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe we should cover the Yahoo situation again. A lot has happened and a reader just sent this mail: | Aug 05 14:35 |
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| schestowitz | 'I guess MS really is running a Jihad. It's rather nasty to see the One Microsoft Way drum pounded so hard by an organization that markets itself as a news company: "...Yang has been under pressure for months over failed negotiations to sell the company to Microsoft Corp..." http://www.reuters.com/article/fun... Since this is Reuters, it will eventually evaporate.' | Aug 05 14:35 |
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| kentma | This is pressure from brokers/bankers, though, who are Reuters' main customers. They make money from the sale, they care not to whom it is made nor why, nor whether it subsequently be successful. | Aug 05 15:10 |
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| schestowitz | Same with AP and BusinessWek. | Aug 05 15:13 |
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| schestowitz | BusinessWeek demands that people don't link to it (as in hyperlink) and AP charges money for use of more than 4 words from its articles which is sells. I think BW wants subscription. WSJ too and NYT seems to have given up and resorted to spying and ugly forced ads instead. | Aug 05 15:14 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: that joe barr obit has been syndicated all over the web - I'm amazed. | Aug 05 15:20 |
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| PetoKraus | uh | Aug 05 15:22 |
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| schestowitz | We were in Linux Today again yesterday. It's going mainstream over time. | Aug 05 15:22 |
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| PetoKraus | didn't read it yet | Aug 05 15:22 |
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| PetoKraus | tried to, but you use english which is currently more than i can bear :D | Aug 05 15:23 |
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| PetoKraus | but i like the part about scientists vs politicians | Aug 05 15:23 |
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| schestowitz | But there are people 'threatening' editors and attacking the site all the time. I don't always link to it, but there's a bunch of people that systematically mod us down and try to nuke us out of sight.. | Aug 05 15:23 |
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| kentma | PetoKraus: what's your preferred language? | Aug 05 15:25 |
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| PetoKraus | english. | Aug 05 15:25 |
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| kentma | :-) | Aug 05 15:25 |
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| PetoKraus | well, slovak is my mother-tongue, but... | Aug 05 15:25 |
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| PetoKraus | i can't understand technical slovak better than technical english, to be honest... | Aug 05 15:25 |
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| kentma | aha okay. can't write in slovak, sorry. | Aug 05 15:26 |
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| kentma | technical or otherwise. | Aug 05 15:26 |
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| PetoKraus | bye for now | Aug 05 15:26 |
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| schestowitz | Cya, PetoKraus. | Aug 05 15:28 |
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| schestowitz | Here come some more FOSS slurs from Microsoft: http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/... | Aug 05 18:46 |
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| schestowitz | This guy gets it right: "I'm scarcely surprised, especially since it highlights Microsoft's schizoid behavior over open source." ( http://www.informationweek.com/blog/mai... ) | Aug 05 18:47 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft's press is, as usual, just a 'yes man' to Microsoft's accusations: http://redmondmag.com/news/arti... | Aug 05 18:47 |
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| schestowitz | Drama in The Inquirer: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/n... This is quite an opprtunity to highlight for people to see that Microsoft viewed OSS as a /THREAT/. Why would it want to embrace its #1 rival if not to manipulate? | Aug 05 18:48 |
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| kentma | Microsoft are playing their low cards now. I had wondered if they had some picture cards left, but they're in the low numbers. They hold up the "patent" card as if it were a trump, but it's not. | Aug 05 22:09 |
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| schestowitz | I posted this just 30 seconds ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/05/... | Aug 05 22:10 |
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| schestowitz | Just found this afso: http://www.intology.com/comp... ( Microsoft accuses open source community of stealing its ideas ) | Aug 05 22:14 |
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| kentma | that's pretty good -the BN one, I mean. | Aug 05 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | At the bottom I made use of my set of references that were accumulated over time. :-) | Aug 05 22:16 |
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| kentma | google groups is a mess - it doesn't find 1/2 of the digests. | Aug 05 22:16 |
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| kentma | I'm going to have to start posting them somewhere else, I think... | Aug 05 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | That must be an improvement for G2 to find half of /anything/. It's a very fragile thing. Maybe the load has it wobbling. It has gone on for years. Things come and go, go and come. It never really vanishes, but the datacentres seem not to synch properly. | Aug 05 22:18 |
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| kentma | I rarely use it, and had no idea just how bad it had become. Why did google get the deja archive if they were just going to ignore it? | Aug 05 22:18 |
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| kentma | xlent references, btw. | Aug 05 22:18 |
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| kentma | I was wondering about loading wordpress locally, and putting the digests into a "blog", from the beginning. | Aug 05 22:19 |
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| schestowitz | To permit GMail spammers to ruin so many newsgroups I was a regular of. AISE being one example. RIP. We were like a family there. | Aug 05 22:19 |
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| schestowitz | Why locally? Have someone manage uptime for you. You can use the Web browser to post away conveniently. | Aug 05 22:20 |
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| kentma | get something hosted? I suppose I could. Any suggestions? | Aug 05 22:32 |
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| kentma | did you see the sh1t gary & hadron gave Tony(uk)? | Aug 05 22:34 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I have. That's what they want. They poison the forum. Same in places like Slashdot, as I've said before. Groklaw kicks people out to prevent such behaviour. | Aug 05 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | Have a look at Catalyst2. They are my hosts for 3 domains. | Aug 05 22:35 |
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| kentma | Unfortunately, in the end, those people will ensure that anonymous posting becomes impossible, just like the idiots who drive too fast ensure we get speed cams, and the fools who drink too much ensure that drinking is increasingly restricted, and so on. It's a shame so many people are so unable to reflect on the consequences of their actions. | Aug 05 22:37 |
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| kentma | Catalyst2? Okay - I will, thanks. | Aug 05 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | Mention me to them. :-) I think they like me because I give them no hassle. | Aug 05 22:38 |
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| kentma | hehe :-) | Aug 05 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | I've been with them since 2004 and they never bill me for bandwidth. I asked them to change me for it but they are too kind. | Aug 05 22:38 |
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| kentma | Sounds good. | Aug 05 22:39 |
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| schestowitz | Oops. s/change/charge/ | Aug 05 22:40 |
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| kentma | did you know that coral reefs support 25% of all fish species? | Aug 05 22:40 |
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| kentma | I guessed :-) | Aug 05 22:40 |
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| schestowitz | URL? | Aug 05 22:41 |
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| kentma | ah - mythtv - | Aug 05 22:41 |
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| schestowitz | So garbage dumping through the beaches ain't working out too well, eh? Maybe one day they'll try to 'resurrect' species by 'h4cking' on DNA.. :-) Well, it's also concerning that garbage is circling in massive amounts in the Pacific. | Aug 05 22:43 |
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| kentma | albatross chicks are eating plastic washed up on beaches, because their parents can't see the difference between the plastic and edible small animals. | Aug 05 22:44 |
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| kentma | They fill up with plastic and die. | Aug 05 22:44 |
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| schestowitz | I once read about seaturtles and those can lids... before they make them non-detachable... | Aug 05 22:45 |
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| kentma | uk, yes, it was awful. | Aug 05 22:45 |
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| kentma | To be honest, I rarely drink anything out of one of those tins, because I rarely find anything I like /inside/ one of them. | Aug 05 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | Man is more vicious an animal than a dinosaur. Hopefully we won't be extinct. | Aug 05 22:46 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Aug 05 22:46 |
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| kentma | We're destroying ourselves at a shocking rate. Unless things change, our children could well be the last generation. | Aug 05 22:46 |
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| kentma | population has risen from 2bn to 6bn in < 100 years. | Aug 05 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | "Healthy generation: you mean? | Aug 05 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that's why I say that birth control is the last resort before humans do it to themselves. | Aug 05 22:47 |
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| kentma | There will be global war for water, food and energy. There will not be many survivors; unless things change. | Aug 05 22:47 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, water first based on what I hear from friends. The floods won't help (global warming). | Aug 05 22:48 |
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| schestowitz | Just watch Greenpeave struggling for some scrap of space in the paper... with headlines that attack the iPhone to get the message across. | Aug 05 22:49 |
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| kentma | Easter Island is a good example, in 1500 years, the island has gone from a population of 20,000 to zero. The island had foul & fish, but then, they killed off the forest, and no longer had wood for canoes. they starved, they had internal wars for the remaining food, and gradually, they died out. | Aug 05 22:50 |
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| kentma | they killed themselves off. | Aug 05 22:51 |
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| kentma | All that remains are the amazing statues on the island, the last one was made before the wars between smaller tribes started. | Aug 05 22:51 |
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| schestowitz | Sounds worse the the economical equivalent. Just watch Linux wars... and how Novell fights for its shares by liaising with Microsoft. Novell will announce massive layoffs regardless (a bit like extinctions). | Aug 05 22:53 |
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| kentma | I think that Greenpeace's political agenda has been to mixed and complex. They need to rebrand! | Aug 05 22:53 |
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| kentma | You have some inside info? | Aug 05 22:54 |
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| schestowitz | They talk to the walls, sadly. It's like RMS trying to preach Free software when the likes of O'Reilly spout Web 2.0 nonsense. | Aug 05 22:54 |
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| SeveredCross | Hmm. Someone wrote a really good response to the RMS/O'Reilly stuff. | Aug 05 22:55 |
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| SeveredCross | That basically said that RMS's way actually takes more freedom from software developers. | Aug 05 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | kentma: it's not insider info. It was in the news before. They'll either move staffing to India (Hovsepian spoke about this in Reuters India a while back) or just sack lots of people. They began with buybacks about 2 months ago, so like Microsoft, they live on their 'fat' layer (savings). | Aug 05 22:56 |
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| SeveredCross | Because it would force them into a license. | Aug 05 22:56 |
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| SeveredCross | And I can't find the damn article now. | Aug 05 22:56 |
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| schestowitz | Did you see the tongue-lashing with Eben? | Aug 05 22:56 |
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| SeveredCross | Not sure. | Aug 05 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | In O'Reilly's site? | Aug 05 22:57 |
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| schestowitz | http://radar.oreilly.com/2007/08/my-tong... | Aug 05 22:57 |
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| SeveredCross | Just found it. | Aug 05 22:57 |
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| kentma | schestowitz: ah, okay. Not all that surprising. I wrote something long long ago about this - I think you had it on BN, in fact? | Aug 05 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, there was one about the proprietary roots. Novell is a fat spoiled cat... but the arrogance will run out. | Aug 05 22:59 |
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| schestowitz | Got the URL, SeveredCross. RMS tried to maintain, protect, sustain or whatever the freedom, so the definitions vary. It recognises selfishness. | Aug 05 23:00 |
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| kentma | RMS is fantastically well focussed on the freedom aspect. He's thought all this out exceptionally well, but then, with good reason. His Emacs was "stolen" and proprietarised, so the whole FSF thing was about preventing anyone else from doing the same thing. Being bitten makes one, well, cautious and somewhat introspective, in my experience. | Aug 05 23:03 |
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| kentma | Btw - wrote some 'c' today, exploring chaos in some maths expressions - first time for years :-) | Aug 05 23:04 |
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| kentma | All the pain of printf format commands comes flooding back :-) | Aug 05 23:04 |
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| kentma | format specifiers, of course. | Aug 05 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | I haven't done C in years, either. | Aug 05 23:05 |
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| kentma | I used to get paid for my C code once... | Aug 05 23:05 |
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| schestowitz | I'm ashamed to admit that I ran MATLAB (proprietary) some days ago. It's the only binary-only I've touched in years, but there's no choice. | Aug 05 23:06 |
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| kentma | I've never used it, but I understand it's very powerful. Is there no foss alternative? | Aug 05 23:06 |
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| schestowitz | There's Octave and some other lesser-known substitutes, but you need to get colleagues to use them too. | Aug 05 23:07 |
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| schestowitz | The sad thing is that I made lots of 'open source' programs but they _depend_ on a proprietary payer (MATALAB), so I need to pay for access to the stack. | Aug 05 23:08 |
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| schestowitz | Mathworks actually pursed me for a job some years ago (6-figure wave) and sent me a .doc, so I asked them to resend despite the fact that I had no interest. | Aug 05 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | I was ranked #1 back in 2005 ( http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileex... ) and they suggested that I publish a book. | Aug 05 23:09 |
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| kentma | you turned down 6 figs? | Aug 05 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | I didn't reply to them. | Aug 05 23:10 |
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| kentma | to be honest, informa were chasing me for a book last couple of years, but I suspect that the messages are, well, somewhat transient. | Aug 05 23:10 |
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| kentma | so I didn't respond :-) | Aug 05 23:12 |
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| schestowitz | You're a good writer. I'm just not sure about the reach of books. it's also frustrating to write. RMS, IIRC< believes that he serves the message better on the Web. | Aug 05 23:12 |
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| kentma | Kind of you to say, but in all honest, I'm a far better speaker than I am a writer. | Aug 05 23:12 |
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| kentma | I have to be hit by inspirons to write - when I get hit by one, I can wax lyrical for hours. I once wrote a 20,000 word software manual in 2 days - the bug just hit me. | Aug 05 23:13 |
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| schestowitz | Speaking is worse (with all due respect). It's passing messages 'to the air'. Once it's said, it's gone for good (unless recorded and transcribed which is rare) | Aug 05 23:13 |
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| kentma | hehe - fair point :-) | Aug 05 23:14 |
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| schestowitz | Shane fetched the text of one talk from the head of Novell SA. We use it to this date. When people reply 'on the spot' once interrogated, a lot of stuff comes out that formal text would never reveal. | Aug 05 23:14 |
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| kentma | I can be more contraversial when speaking, though, at least, unless it's recorded, then I have to be a little more careful. | Aug 05 23:14 |
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| kentma | True - they're "off piste" and often not so used to it. | Aug 05 23:15 |
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| schestowitz | I sometimes prefer E-mail and not phonecalls because I can pass E-mails around, read them later, etc. | Aug 05 23:15 |
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| kentma | True. that's also why a lot of people prefer phone calls... nothing documented. | Aug 05 23:15 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2006/12/27/s... | Aug 05 23:15 |
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| kentma | Ah, yes, I've already read that one - it's quite revealing, as you say. | Aug 05 23:16 |
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| schestowitz | Anyway, I'm off to bed now. I'll catch you tomorrow. | Aug 05 23:16 |
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| kentma | see ya | Aug 05 23:16 |
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