| DaemonFC | but they aren't | May 24 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| MinceR | intrepid was a train wreck for me | May 24 00:00 |
| MinceR | it still is | May 24 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | worked fine for me | May 24 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | but Jaunty doesn't | May 24 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | when things break you take a look around and maybe find more things you don't like | May 24 00:00 |
| MinceR | yay, let's completely change how x is configured and not document anything about it! | May 24 00:00 |
| MinceR | yay, let's drop the one usable desktop environment from the distro! | May 24 00:01 |
| DaemonFC | most of them remove Ctrl-Alt-Bksp so you can't reset it when it freezes | May 24 00:01 |
| DaemonFC | because stupid people were mistakenly triggering resets | May 24 00:01 |
| DaemonFC | with three keys spaced out unnaturally on the keyboard :) | May 24 00:01 |
| MinceR | they should make x stable first | May 24 00:01 |
| MinceR | it's like removing the reset button from cases | May 24 00:02 |
| MinceR | a case of overblown self-confidence | May 24 00:02 |
| DaemonFC | well now if X freezes you have to hold in the power button | May 24 00:02 |
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| DaemonFC | then a little googling reveals you have to edit xorg.conf to get it back | May 24 00:02 |
| MinceR | truth be told, ctrl+alt+backspace won't help in a real x freeze anyway | May 24 00:02 |
| MinceR | editing xorg.conf won't get you anywhere since they've changed how it's configured | May 24 00:03 |
| MinceR | now you have to screw around under /etc/hal.d or something | May 24 00:03 |
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| tacone | sudo apt-get install dontzap | May 24 00:03 |
| chips_b_malroy | Hi all, could not connect to BN, until just now, was the site ddos again? | May 24 00:03 |
| tacone | dontzap #it will get you the options | May 24 00:03 |
| tacone | chips_b_malroy: apparently yes | May 24 00:04 |
| tacone | chips_b_malroy: truth hurts. | May 24 00:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | tacone, ok | May 24 00:04 |
| chips_b_malroy | Roy, I think he is using ssh somehow | May 24 00:05 |
| tacone | chips_b_malroy: guess he's asleep | May 24 00:05 |
| tessier | Software/hardware are not as predictable as we would like because they are so insanely complicated because we want to do things like browse the web and play games with 3d animation | May 24 00:06 |
| tessier | My Atari 2600 never crashed on me once that I can recall. | May 24 00:06 |
| MinceR | and because m$ has lowered the standards beyond imagination | May 24 00:06 |
| MinceR | (expectations) | May 24 00:06 |
| tacone | if linux was the standard there would be 100th times working force on code reliability | May 24 00:07 |
| tacone | maybe more. | May 24 00:08 |
| chips_b_malroy | Using Fail2Ban to refuse brute-force attacks http://gleamynode.net/articles/2216/ | May 24 00:08 |
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| tacone | that's just ip based | May 24 00:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | http://laurentbois.com/2008/03/24/brute-force-attacks-ddos-what-are-my-defenses/ | May 24 00:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | this one too most likely | May 24 00:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | still my understand is if you can prevent them from connecting by ip | May 24 00:10 |
| tacone | tessier: could you have a look ? | May 24 00:10 |
| chips_b_malroy | from what I read this is a tor attack | May 24 00:11 |
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| chips_b_malroy | the person I think did this has wrote a lot about ssh online and some on ddos | May 24 00:13 |
| chips_b_malroy | and tor | May 24 00:14 |
| tacone | the person who has done the attack or the program ? | May 24 00:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | the attack | May 24 00:15 |
| MinceR | who is it? | May 24 00:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | I cannot be sure, so I will not say, Roy has the information | May 24 00:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | not on a public log | May 24 00:16 |
| tacone | if roy has the info already, then fine. | May 24 00:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | I don't want to do anything that causes libility for BN, u understand | May 24 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | I don't know, everytime I get fed up with something one OS does t hat pisses me off and go to the other one, it does that part right and messes something else up | May 24 00:19 |
| MinceR | same with desktop environments | May 24 00:19 |
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| DaemonFC | But I don't like Ubuntu's developers | May 24 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | I just personally really don't | May 24 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | they're not approachable | May 24 00:19 |
| MinceR | we know, gregkh said they're the devil | May 24 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | he's right | May 24 00:19 |
| MinceR | he's paid by m$ to say so, therefore he must be right | May 24 00:20 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | May 24 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | I don't use OpenSuse, I don't think it's all that great ever since they decided they wanted to be an MS Windows Server clone | May 24 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | but they do contribute to things | May 24 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | well, Novell thinks there's all this money in offering second rate knockoffs of Microsoft things | May 24 00:21 |
| DaemonFC | and there won't be | May 24 00:21 |
| DaemonFC | because if you want to use a Microsoft product you'd buy a Microsoft product | May 24 00:21 |
| chips_b_malroy | I use Mepis PCLinuxos and Sidux | May 24 00:21 |
| chips_b_malroy | there is money in it now, thats what keeping Novell going | May 24 00:21 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: strange, you keep boosting windows all day and then you complain because you think opensuse is copying it | May 24 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | Mono is not .Net compatible, OpenOffice is not MS Office compatible, I mean if you're paying an outrageous amount either way and you're a business | May 24 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | you're not going to want to run OpenSuse | May 24 00:22 |
| MinceR | i guess it's my fault for trying to understand how a nutcase thinks. | May 24 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | well, it's like OpenSuse is trying to be a generic off-brand of Windows | May 24 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | and customers just aren't having it | May 24 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | you know? | May 24 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | that's why their stock is not doing well | May 24 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | this is usually what happens when a Linux distro goes that route | May 24 00:23 |
| chips_b_malroy | Once in awhile I have to play around with windows myself. Mostly to update and keep track of all the antivirus and anitmalware programs. in case I get another windows computer to clean out. have one coming in next week | May 24 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | they twitch and stumble around in the wilderness for a few years then go bust | May 24 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | they aren't 100% Windows compatible, the Linux community doesn't like or trust them | May 24 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | so they are off on their own | May 24 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | Linspire | May 24 00:25 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 00:25 |
| tessier | chips_b_malroy: I'm already using fail2ban | May 24 00:25 |
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| chips_b_malroy | ok tessier, guess I not much help | May 24 00:25 |
| DaemonFC | Now 9 years ago I heard about Lindows, but they weren;t saying much other than it was going to be like Windows and run all these Windows applications | May 24 00:25 |
| DaemonFC | the word Linux wasn't even on their site anywhere | May 24 00:26 |
| DaemonFC | much less Wine | May 24 00:26 |
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| DaemonFC | so I was real excited cause I figured there may be some truth to what they were alluding | May 24 00:26 |
| chips_b_malroy | and it used to log in a root too | May 24 00:26 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | May 24 00:26 |
| chips_b_malroy | puppy used to do that | May 24 00:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | too | May 24 00:27 |
| DaemonFC | my expectations died down considerably when they said Linux+Wine and you get to pay us a monthly fee for access to our repository :P | May 24 00:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | not sure about the newest one | May 24 00:27 |
| DaemonFC | well, every once in a while someone tries to hype their distro up like that as "Come to us and you can keep your Windows apps too" | May 24 00:28 |
| chips_b_malroy | DSL was a great small distro, but the two guys running it split up | May 24 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | and it's never worked out like that | May 24 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | Mandriva tried that with 8.1 "Gaming Edition" | May 24 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | they even threw in The Sims and a few other Windows games | May 24 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | then you find out it was Transgaming WineX and you get to fork over more money if you want to run much else | May 24 00:29 |
| chips_b_malroy | DaemonFC, run what u can with wine/crossover, the others with XP inside virtualbox. and if you really have to, dual boot linux and xp | May 24 00:29 |
| DaemonFC | I have every version of Windows there's ever been in every edition | May 24 00:30 |
| DaemonFC | and a huge stack of software for it | May 24 00:30 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 00:30 |
| chips_b_malroy | me too, up to 2003 | May 24 00:30 |
| DaemonFC | I also have all Vista editions and all Server 2008 editions | May 24 00:30 |
| chips_b_malroy | but I go back further to dos and os/2 software | May 24 00:30 |
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| DaemonFC | anything that crops up on MSDN or Technet | May 24 00:31 |
| chips_b_malroy | I stopped with Vista, had most of the longhorn builds. Vista is just a pos | May 24 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | Longhorn builds were decent til they started adding stupid shit and cutting out things that were neat to rush it out | May 24 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | it turned out to be a bloated XP, kind of | May 24 00:32 |
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| MinceR | xp turned out to be a bloated xp, too | May 24 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | XP isn't horribly bloated | May 24 00:33 |
| MinceR | depends on your definition of "horribly" | May 24 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | XP is only about 20% bigger than Windows 2000 | May 24 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | Vista is about 900% bigger than XP | May 24 00:33 |
| MinceR | in my book, a search indexer that grinds the hdd but doesn't speed up searching definitely qualifies as "horribly bloated" | May 24 00:34 |
| chips_b_malroy | about 14 months before vista was released they threw the towel in on Longhorn based on xp code. Bill decided to base it on 2003 code and rewrite 60% of it. Most likely because they had just made deals with sony/toshiba/hollywood to put in the massive DRM | May 24 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | well, the Windows Search 4.0 is better about that | May 24 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | I never notice my hard disk grinding | May 24 00:34 |
| MinceR | so is slocate | May 24 00:34 |
| MinceR | and tracker | May 24 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | a problem with the old Vista search indexer was the grinding plus outdated search results | May 24 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | the new one improved considerably | May 24 00:34 |
| MinceR | oh, and windows messenger installed and running by default qualifies as "horribly bloated", too | May 24 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | like with Vista search in Vista SP1, you may have a folder of pictures that it swears are empty when you search it cause it's not updated the index | May 24 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | it doesn't do that in SP2 | May 24 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | Vista doesn't have Windows Messenger | May 24 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | and you can uninstall it from XP | May 24 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | development on Windows Messenger was halted 3 years ago | May 24 00:36 |
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| DaemonFC | Windows Live Messenger has succeeded it | May 24 00:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | new name but is the product much diff? | May 24 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | extremely different | May 24 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | much better actually | May 24 00:37 |
| chips_b_malroy | good, the old messinger was a viral target | May 24 00:38 |
| _Hicham_ | the new one is still a viral target | May 24 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | the new one lets you select to scan incoming files before they're offered to you | May 24 00:38 |
| chips_b_malroy | figures | May 24 00:38 |
| MinceR | of course i can uninstall it | May 24 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | and block anything that may be a virus | May 24 00:38 |
| _Hicham_ | better use an efficient client | May 24 00:38 |
| MinceR | i can even delete the partition | May 24 00:38 |
| MinceR | but why do i need to do it? | May 24 00:38 |
| _Hicham_ | pidgin is better | May 24 00:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | DaemonFC try this Format C: | May 24 00:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | for vista | May 24 00:39 |
| MinceR | format c: /u /autotest | May 24 00:39 |
| _Hicham_ | will Vista format itself? | May 24 00:39 |
| MinceR | dunno | May 24 00:39 |
| chips_b_malroy | big improvement in vista if u remove it | May 24 00:39 |
| _Hicham_ | Vista is great, and DaemonFC testifies about this | May 24 00:40 |
| _Hicham_ | isn't it DaemonFC? | May 24 00:40 |
| chips_b_malroy | old windows would but ask you the drive name | May 24 00:40 |
| MinceR | vista is great! | May 24 00:40 |
| MinceR | ...for me to poop on! | May 24 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | format C: doesn't do anything | May 24 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 00:40 |
| _Hicham_ | Yes, it rocks! | May 24 00:40 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahahahaha | May 24 00:41 |
| macabe | chips: Didn't format C: /select do that without prompts? | May 24 00:41 |
| chips_b_malroy | of course, but u running as limited user | May 24 00:41 |
| DaemonFC | http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7460/38096648.png | May 24 00:41 |
| chips_b_malroy | I was asked by a custormer to put handbrake on their computer, they also wanted a dual boot system | May 24 00:43 |
| chips_b_malroy | Vista home was on the laptop, dual core | May 24 00:43 |
| MinceR | that's the handbrake, i presume | May 24 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | want me to do it as Administrator? | May 24 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | :D | May 24 00:44 |
| chips_b_malroy | after finially getting handbrake to run in vista, two hacks | May 24 00:44 |
| MinceR | oh, it's a program? | May 24 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/74/49184482.png | May 24 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | chips_b_malroy: There you are | May 24 00:44 |
| chips_b_malroy | it ran twice as slow as handbrake in linux within XP inside of virtualbox | May 24 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | I told you it wouldn't do it | May 24 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | now Linux will gladly go kill itself | May 24 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | if you are root and do rm -rf / | May 24 00:45 |
| MinceR | you didn't do the equivalent of rm -rf / | May 24 00:45 |
| chips_b_malroy | also I was afriad that handbrake/vista was going melt the plastic in the bottom of the laptop, ran cool the linux virtualbox xp way | May 24 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | Vista doesn't have deltree | May 24 00:46 |
| MinceR | now tell us how great a feature that is | May 24 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | I could go to the root folder and use del *.*, but it can't delete any files that are in use | May 24 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | so that wouldn't cripple the system | May 24 00:47 |
| MinceR | it wouldn't? go ahead and try it | May 24 00:47 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : Ubuntu doesn't do rm -rf / | May 24 00:48 |
| MinceR | windows' crappy filesystem handling isn't going to save the system | May 24 00:48 |
| DaemonFC | yes | May 24 00:48 |
| _Hicham_ | the binutils have been patched | May 24 00:48 |
| chips_b_malroy | u might need 3rd party software to do that DaemonFC | May 24 00:48 |
| MinceR | since it doesn't keep all its important files open at all times | May 24 00:48 |
| DaemonFC | you can use rm -rf in Ooga Booga | May 24 00:48 |
| _Hicham_ | by a stupid user request | May 24 00:48 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 00:48 |
| chips_b_malroy | in vista | May 24 00:48 |
| _Hicham_ | what the point in preventing that? | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu will let you use sudo rm -rf | May 24 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | no | May 24 00:49 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: it's crApple thinking | May 24 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | it won't | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | I've used it | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | in Jaunty | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | so I know it does | May 24 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | in Jaunty? | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | yes | May 24 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | and it worked? | May 24 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | yes | May 24 00:49 |
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| DaemonFC | surprises me that they haven't crippled the OS to account for their idiot user base though | May 24 00:50 |
| MinceR | idiots who complain because they ran a command that means breaking the system and succeeded shouldn't use computers | May 24 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | but it still has some UNIX in it yet | May 24 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 00:50 |
| _Hicham_ | wait, I will look for the "bug" in launchpad | May 24 00:50 |
| chips_b_malroy | DaemonFC in Mepis 8 go to system--Mepis--Mepis network assistant to setup your wireless | May 24 00:50 |
| MinceR | just like idiots who can't tell the difference between their index and middle fingers | May 24 00:50 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: you seem to be confusing ubuntu with osx | May 24 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | no, Ubuntu is trying to be like the Mac | May 24 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | but not succeeding | May 24 00:51 |
| chips_b_malroy | agree | May 24 00:51 |
| MinceR | i'm thankful for their failure at doing so | May 24 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | Often imitated, never duplicated :) | May 24 00:51 |
| _Hicham_ | that is very bad | May 24 00:52 |
| _Hicham_ | to cripple the user freedom | May 24 00:52 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, well, they try to dumb things down to gain more users who are capable of using it, and it never works | May 24 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | if that line of thinking worked, Microsoft would have every 60-90 year old that never bothered to use a computer til (insert Windows version here) | May 24 00:53 |
| _Hicham_ | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/coreutils/+bug/174283 | May 24 00:53 |
| MinceR | it works for crApple | May 24 00:54 |
| MinceR | they seem to be getting all kinds of idiot users who don't even know why they'd want something resembling a computer for | May 24 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | heh | May 24 00:55 |
| ushimitsudoki | You are looking at Ubuntu the wrong way. Instead of tearing down the distro because it is "newbie-friendly", that should be the place to install FLOSS values and thinking to newcomers | May 24 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | dumbing down software to fish for new users happens every revision | May 24 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | for the last 20 years | May 24 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | and Ubuntu is as guilty of it as Microsoft | May 24 00:55 |
| ushimitsudoki | It is frustrating sometimes, because so many newcomers to Ubuntu basically want a "no-cost version of Windows", rather than Linux, but it is the best opportunity to present the world of Linux to many people | May 24 00:56 |
| MinceR | "newbie-friendly" and "dumbed down" are not the same thing | May 24 00:56 |
| ushimitsudoki | And Ubuntu is not "as guilty of it" as Microsoft is. That's just pure bullshit spouting off | May 24 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | it's dumbed down, at the point where you can't fix it | May 24 00:56 |
| MinceR | "newbie friendly": providing sane defaults, documentation and gui config tools | May 24 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | it's friendly when that's simply the default | May 24 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | with a way back | May 24 00:56 |
| MinceR | "dumbed down": removing features because they might confuse users | May 24 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | right, like xchat-gnome | May 24 00:57 |
| ushimitsudoki | First off, ubuntu offers several DE choices to the user, right from the package manager. | May 24 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | prime example of dumbed down | May 24 00:57 |
| ushimitsudoki | A newcomer to Linux is well served by Gnome. | May 24 00:57 |
| chips_b_malroy | ubuntu made a lot of changes from stock Debian. They hosed beyond repair alsa for some old thinkpads | May 24 00:57 |
| MinceR | gnome is dumbed down | May 24 00:57 |
| ushimitsudoki | Imagine if a new comer had to use Gentoo or Slackware? What percentage would stick to it? 1%? 2% | May 24 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | they hosed it for me on a system that's 1 year old | May 24 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | fuckers | May 24 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 00:58 |
| chips_b_malroy | that said, its not so bad for newbies | May 24 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | parden my french | May 24 00:58 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: m$ is working hard at helping them with that | May 24 00:58 |
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| chips_b_malroy | mono will cure everything | May 24 00:58 |
| MinceR | lol | May 24 00:58 |
| ushimitsudoki | A newcomer to Linux by way of a distro like Ubuntu has a much larger change of sticking with Linux | May 24 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | Gentoo and Slackware are obscure because they choose to be | May 24 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | not because there's any practical reason to be | May 24 00:58 |
| ushimitsudoki | No. They are obscure because they are harder than chinese arthimetic | May 24 00:58 |
| MinceR | gentoo has priorities that match those of a tiny minority. | May 24 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | they put the emphasis on "Here's 200 configuration switches for every package" | May 24 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | Where Ubuntu is like a nursery | May 24 00:59 |
| MinceR | slackware don't trust any package manager to install any by default | May 24 00:59 |
| MinceR | that's why they're obscure. | May 24 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | package managers aren't inherently evil | May 24 00:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | hunting down all the dependacies in a slackware make install is more than I want to do, yes I can, but why? | May 24 00:59 |
| ushimitsudoki | So, how would you introduce newcomers to Linux? If not a simplified distribution? | May 24 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | unfortunately some work better than others | May 24 01:00 |
| MinceR | gentoo considers a tiny performance gain more important than being able to compile the package at all | May 24 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | Google Chromium is working in Linux | May 24 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | Finally | May 24 01:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | It's perfectly reasonable to "dumb-down" things for newcomers. | May 24 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | it renders pages | May 24 01:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | Or even to "dumb-down" things for non-enthusiasts | May 24 01:00 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: what's missing? | May 24 01:00 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: no it isn't | May 24 01:00 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: it leads to osx | May 24 01:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | Pick any other part of your life that you are not an enthusiatst in | May 24 01:00 |
| ushimitsudoki | I guarantee you are using "dumbed down" equipment | May 24 01:00 |
| MinceR | the user can't improve their knowledge, they can't do more with the system | May 24 01:00 |
| macabe | So middle of the road in Linux usage would be.... | May 24 01:01 |
| _Hicham_ | MinceR : Options are not implemented yet | May 24 01:01 |
| MinceR | the system won't grow with the user because it's limited | May 24 01:01 |
| ushimitsudoki | So, don't get holy about a distribution being "dumbed-down" - it serves a well defined purpose. | May 24 01:01 |
| MinceR | the user thinks he could do things better with a little change? sorry, that option isn't included because it might confuse the user. | May 24 01:01 |
| MinceR | never mind that it could be turned back off. | May 24 01:01 |
| chips_b_malroy | most users are not going grow, they surf, get email, write a letter, and play a few small basic games | May 24 01:01 |
| MinceR | there are many ways to do those things | May 24 01:02 |
| MinceR | and how can you tell if a particular user will never want any other app? | May 24 01:02 |
| MinceR | what gives you the authority to lock them out of those options? | May 24 01:02 |
| ushimitsudoki | ubuntu has all those options. you can use virutally any DE / application / login manager / shell you want with ubuntu | May 24 01:02 |
| MinceR | forever? | May 24 01:02 |
| ushimitsudoki | you are not locked out | May 24 01:02 |
| ushimitsudoki | I use XFCE with SLIM and fish shell on ubuntu | May 24 01:02 |
| MinceR | i use kde4 with gnome-panel | May 24 01:03 |
| ushimitsudoki | there is no "lock out" | May 24 01:03 |
| MinceR | on ubuntu | May 24 01:03 |
| ushimitsudoki | that is simply untrue | May 24 01:03 |
| MinceR | but i'm getting sick of plasma eating cpu | May 24 01:03 |
| *kentma has quit (Connection timed out) | May 24 01:03 | |
| _Hicham_ | there u go DaemonFC : http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6085/screenshotr.png | May 24 01:03 |
| ushimitsudoki | Do you really think a newcomer needs to be presented with every choice right off the go? Far better to present them with a simple and working environment to become familiar with, and let them make changes as they learn more | May 24 01:03 |
| MinceR | well, with gnome you can switch DEs | May 24 01:04 |
| ushimitsudoki | To do it the other way around is a much harder argument to make | May 24 01:04 |
| MinceR | but it's probably easier for a newbie to enable options in the DE he's accustomed to | May 24 01:04 |
| MinceR | instead of looking for others | May 24 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, it works well enough to take pictures | May 24 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | same as when I tried it | May 24 01:04 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: the "simple and working" environment is already there | May 24 01:04 |
| MinceR | the options are in the menus and the config dialogs. | May 24 01:04 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : did u try it on Linux? | May 24 01:04 |
| ushimitsudoki | MinceR: what is that then? | May 24 01:05 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah | May 24 01:05 |
| DaemonFC | Chrome only works well enough to use on Windows | May 24 01:05 |
| DaemonFC | at this point | May 24 01:05 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: "dumbing down" means having to look for another tool for the job the moment you need a little more than the default | May 24 01:06 |
| ushimitsudoki | MinceR: that's the definition you give now - i don't agree and have never heard it defined that way. | May 24 01:06 |
| chips_b_malroy | the build of chrome I have works good, took me awhile to figure out how to enable bookmarks | May 24 01:06 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: well, how do you define "dumbing down", then? | May 24 01:07 |
| ushimitsudoki | Basically, I think the criticism of Ubuntu is not fact-based. It's a bunch of one-liners with no thought behind them. That's not saying that Ubuntu is perfect by any means, but it serves an important and difficult role | May 24 01:07 |
| ushimitsudoki | MinceR: I don't. I'm not the one making the allegation. | May 24 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | I used it pretty much exclusively from 2006 | May 24 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | to last month | May 24 01:08 |
| MinceR | ushimitsudoki: so you argue about something but you don't know what it is? | May 24 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | not like 3 years of dealing with it every day would let me know what I'm saying | May 24 01:08 |
| MinceR | my problem with ubuntu is that they said they're going to make a stable release every 6 months but i don't think intrepid can be considered a stable release. | May 24 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | Jaunty finally is what made me ditch it and come up for air | May 24 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | but it's been getting to this point for over a year | May 24 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu policy is to fuck upstream projects | May 24 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | starting from kernel | May 24 01:10 |
| DaemonFC | exactly | May 24 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | to Firefox | May 24 01:10 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Hicham_: that's just pure bullshit. | May 24 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | OpenOffice | May 24 01:10 |
| DaemonFC | and make it like pulling teeth to build your own | May 24 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | everything is just plain fucked | May 24 01:10 |
| MinceR | _Hicham_: define "fuck" | May 24 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | since they basically just clone Debian every 6 months the kernel build stuff is more or less there | May 24 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | you file a bug report to launchpad, they file it upstream | May 24 01:11 |
| ushimitsudoki | See, that's what I mean - people just shit out one liners of criticism that are obvious hyperbole and drama | May 24 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | but you have to yank out shit that will molest your new kernel packages | May 24 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | most of the time it is their patches that create problems | May 24 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | like nvidia-common | May 24 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | and the restricted drivers manager | May 24 01:11 |
| ushimitsudoki | How can you take that seriously? There are problems and issues with Ubuntu, but BS one-liners don't add anything to the discussion | May 24 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | it's absolutely their shit that messes it up | May 24 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | better stick with upstream projects | May 24 01:12 |
| ushimitsudoki | As if there is an official policy to make upstream life difficult. Ridiculous. | May 24 01:12 |
| DaemonFC | and then they just keep trying to slap patches that may fix it into test kernels | May 24 01:12 |
| DaemonFC | til one of them kind of works | May 24 01:12 |
| DaemonFC | bunch of stooges | May 24 01:12 |
| chips_b_malroy | it doesn't do any good to bash other distro's, even i would use ubuntu instead of winders | May 24 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | they don't contribute back | May 24 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | they don't take upstream projects seriously | May 24 01:12 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Hicham_: yes they do. A number of Ubuntu devs are also upstream devs. | May 24 01:12 |
| DaemonFC | no, what finally pissed me off beyond the point of no return was their idiocy regarding Pulseaudio, ALSA, and HDA drivers | May 24 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | they are morons | May 24 01:13 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Hicham_: brainstorm and launchpad host projects/ideas/source for ubuntu and upstream projects | May 24 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | I am convinced | May 24 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | some kernel hackers that create more problems than solutions | May 24 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | it was obvious they had NO IDEA how to fix it without pulling in huge new packages in their entirety | May 24 01:13 |
| _Hicham_ | they contributed 100 patches to kernel over 3 years | May 24 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | so they backported some halfassed patches that kind of fixed it | May 24 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | 3 years or more I think | May 24 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | and said case closed | May 24 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | still doesn't work right | May 24 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | not even close | May 24 01:14 |
| chips_b_malroy | would you rather suse was on the top of the distrowatch list? | May 24 01:15 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Hicham_: so is your argument that they don't contribute *enough*, then? Because at first you just said "they don't contribute back" | May 24 01:15 |
| DaemonFC | they basically removed some of the visible surface signs of a much larger underlying problem | May 24 01:15 |
| DaemonFC | that was beyond their means to find or fix | May 24 01:15 |
| ushimitsudoki | Sounds like some moving goalposts in here. as usual. | May 24 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | yes, they should contribute enough | May 24 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | and be grateful | May 24 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | and help testing | May 24 01:15 |
| _Hicham_ | in their non LTS releases | May 24 01:15 |
| DaemonFC | I never recommend Ubuntu anymore is someone asks me | May 24 01:15 |
| DaemonFC | I tell them they may as well go slam their dick in a car door because it's less painful than making Ubuntu work right | May 24 01:16 |
| DaemonFC | and that's the truth | May 24 01:16 |
| ushimitsudoki | DaemonFC: yes that is unbiased, un-hyperbole truth | May 24 01:16 |
| ushimitsudoki | idiot. | May 24 01:16 |
| ushimitsudoki | Newsflash: screaming slogans and blowing minor issues wildly out of proportion doesn't win arguments. | May 24 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | ushimitsudoki : why u refuse to see things clearly? | May 24 01:17 |
| DaemonFC | not a minor issue | May 24 01:17 |
| DaemonFC | corrupts the sound stack, makes it sound like shit | May 24 01:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | It just makes you look unreasonable and discounts any valid criticism you might have. | May 24 01:17 |
| DaemonFC | now forget doing audio mixing | May 24 01:17 |
| _Hicham_ | these are not minor issues | May 24 01:17 |
| DaemonFC | you can just forget that | May 24 01:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | For example, you may have a valid point that Canonical could do more to contribute upstream. | May 24 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu is beyond worthless | May 24 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | Canonical doesn't give a shit about upstream | May 24 01:18 |
| ushimitsudoki | But you destroy your own argument when you say they have an official policy to "fuck" upstream | May 24 01:18 |
| ushimitsudoki | thank you for proving my point | May 24 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | no, the quality of their releases depend on whatever packages they swipe from upstream | May 24 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | totally | May 24 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | and then they molest them to get them to do something they weren't meant to | May 24 01:18 |
| ushimitsudoki: So, how would you introduce newcomers to Linux? If not a simplified distribution? | May 24 01:18 | |
| Knoppix or some other live CD. Install Mepis, it only takes 15 minutes on a slow computer. Teach them command line and file system basics, another 10 minutes to show them directories, config files and tab complete. In less than an hour, they are good to go. It's that easy. | May 24 01:18 | |
| DaemonFC | and break my hardware in the process | May 24 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | they are nits | May 24 01:19 |
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| ushimitsudoki | twitter: I would recommend a simplified distro. that is my position. | May 24 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | I am not talking about newbies | May 24 01:19 |
| What's easier than Mepis? | May 24 01:19 | |
| chips_b_malroy | ubuntu should just use debian repo's and contribute back to it. | May 24 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | Mandriva is more simplified | May 24 01:19 |
| ushimitsudoki | twitter: it is others that are arguing that simplified distros are the problem. | May 24 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | OpenSuSe is more simplified | May 24 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | twitter, don't you have n appointment with your 15 other personalities on Slashdot? | May 24 01:19 |
| ushimitsudoki | twitter: Mephis is a fine choice as is Mandrive or Ubuntu | May 24 01:19 |
| ushimitsudoki | mandriva | May 24 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | you seem to be able to engage yourself in a thrilling conversation | May 24 01:19 |
| no, all the trolls are here, FC | May 24 01:19 | |
| Ubuntu is AOK but I don't like Gnome. | May 24 01:20 | |
| I have not tried Mandrive | May 24 01:20 | |
| DaemonFC | I like GNOME, just not what they've done to it | May 24 01:20 |
| ushimitsudoki | twitter: that is exactly my point. Give a newbie a simple distro and let them learn and then change what they like. | May 24 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahahahaha | May 24 01:20 |
| DaemonFC | I like Linux, jsut not what they've done to it | May 24 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | nice trolling session | May 24 01:20 |
| ushimitsudoki | Ubuntu serves that role very well. it's not perfect and could do a lot of things better, but it's a pretty damn good starting point for newcomers | May 24 01:21 |
| DaemonFC | their packaging policies are a joke, their people are idiots, and their apathetic and condescending bureaucracy jsut drives me up the wall | May 24 01:21 |
| Sure. The basics of free software transfer to all distros | May 24 01:21 | |
| chips_b_malroy | you will be back DaemonFC. vista will hose your computer | May 24 01:21 |
| the differences are silly things like package management and UI choices | May 24 01:21 | |
| It's all free software and you can make any distro do just about anything you want | May 24 01:21 | |
| ushimitsudoki | My further point is that because of the popularity of Ubuntu, people that are interested in FLOSS activism should get involved there, so that newcomers hear that side of the message. | May 24 01:21 |
| DaemonFC | I won't ever be back on Ubuntu | May 24 01:21 |
| DaemonFC | that's for damned sure | May 24 01:22 |
| ushimitsudoki | You can bet your ass that the mono/moonlighters are all up in Ubuntu trying to get their message out. People that care about Freedom should be doing the same thing | May 24 01:22 |
| DaemonFC | there's plenty of distros that don't mangle their packages | May 24 01:22 |
| DeamonFC, you seem happy with windows. I don't know why you are here. | May 24 01:22 | |
| DaemonFC | with developers that generally know what they're doing | May 24 01:22 |
| chips_b_malroy | Daemon did you read how to setup the wireless on mepis 8? | May 24 01:22 |
| ushimitsudoki | Preachers go where the sinners are, if you see my meaning | May 24 01:22 |
| DaemonFC | twitter has 16 preachers in one thick skull | May 24 01:23 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of upstream packages that hate Ubuntu. | May 24 01:23 |
| DaemonFC | from what I've seen on Slashdot | May 24 01:23 |
| oiaohm | Its simpler to talk to any other distribution | May 24 01:23 |
| Probably from what you have written, FC. | May 24 01:23 | |
| oiaohm | and get suitalble handling. | May 24 01:23 |
| _Hicham_ | ushimitsudoki doesn't get my point oiaohm | May 24 01:23 |
| _Hicham_ | we have talked before about that | May 24 01:23 |
| DaemonFC | http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377 | May 24 01:23 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu has filled a void. | May 24 01:23 |
| nice | May 24 01:23 | |
| ushimitsudoki | Canonical used to be a lot worse about upstream, but they took a lot of public harsh criticism and have worked to address it. Have they done enough? That's up for debate. | May 24 01:23 |
| DaemonFC | Twitter's list of sock puppets | May 24 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377 | May 24 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | right here | May 24 01:24 |
| lol | May 24 01:24 | |
| oiaohm | Redhat not intested in marketing like they were. | May 24 01:24 |
| I think I'll add you to the troll zoo. | May 24 01:24 | |
| macabe | Stop it with the /. shit | May 24 01:24 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Hicham_: Explain your point again. I think I get it just fine, but I am willing to listen again if you think I missed it. | May 24 01:24 |
| _Hicham_ | as I said all major upstream projects are now offering debs just because of Ubuntu | May 24 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Fedora is getting a lot more love lately | May 24 01:24 |
| very cool for ubuntu | May 24 01:24 | |
| and debian users | May 24 01:24 | |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu needs to go crawl in a hole and die | May 24 01:25 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: that is mostly because upstream project cannot trust Ubuntu debs. | May 24 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | most pointless software fork ever | May 24 01:25 |
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| _Hicham_ | Fedora is struggling to fix bugs | May 24 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Not to berry them 1000 feet under in bug reports | May 24 01:25 |
| I think people are using debs because apt works well | May 24 01:25 | |
| _Hicham_ | they delayed FC11 by one week | May 24 01:25 |
| oiaohm | For alterations incompetent Ubuntu maintainers did. | May 24 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | RPM is really getting a lot better | May 24 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | just to fix some remaining 24 bugs | May 24 01:25 |
| basically, freedom worked. | May 24 01:25 | |
| Red Hat, 10 years ago, had more limited distribution. | May 24 01:25 | |
| oiaohm | Worst for wine was 2000 bug in bugzilla due to ubuntu everyone basically invalid. | May 24 01:26 |
| debian was all free, so everyone could host repositories | May 24 01:26 | |
| _Hicham_ | RedHat got the point long time ago | May 24 01:26 |
| Fedora mimicked that success | May 24 01:26 | |
| _Hicham_ | and they are doing things right | May 24 01:26 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu users just game the hits per day on distrowatch cause they have nothing to do except watch Hentai and sockpuppet slashdot | May 24 01:26 |
| yes | May 24 01:26 | |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu need to grow up. | May 24 01:26 |
| MinceR | for some reason i cannot fathom, programs randomly decide all the i/o bandwidth of the system belongs to them | May 24 01:26 |
| oiaohm | the problem is I don't know how to make them do it. | May 24 01:26 |
| Red Hat has been doing things right. | May 24 01:27 | |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: You can force them not to | May 24 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | it's in the kernel configuration ;) | May 24 01:27 |
| _Hicham_ | Ubuntu devs are a bunch of people who didn't get along with Debian | May 24 01:27 |
| I need to configure my IM to ignore user DaemonFC | May 24 01:27 | |
| off to Google to learn how | May 24 01:27 | |
| _Hicham_ | so they took Debian Policy and fucked with it | May 24 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | Well, Ubuntu exists because Debian team has good taste | May 24 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | is my opinion | May 24 01:27 |
| ushimitsudoki | Wow. Just trolling on Ubuntu now. Oh well. | May 24 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu Policy still contains too much Debian. | May 24 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | let Ubuntu deal with all the I Broke The Screen idiots | May 24 01:28 |
| MinceR | i thought it existed because the debian project went to sleep for a while | May 24 01:28 |
| neonfloss | Ubuntu is good - its easier to start off with and if you all support open source being spread you should support open source distrobutions easier for average user | May 24 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Don't upgrade packages even they are binary compadible just back port patches is from Debian. | May 24 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian projects is lacking resources | May 24 01:28 |
| DaemonFC | Debian didn't go to sleep, nothing stops you from using Testing | May 24 01:28 |
| oiaohm | That Don't upgrade is a bad policy. | May 24 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | like when that dumb dev made the openssl bug | May 24 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Look at numbers of distributions that copied it. | May 24 01:29 |
| ah yes, here it is http://www.livinginternet.com/r/ra_ignore.htm | May 24 01:29 | |
| oiaohm | It was a overall QC failure _Hicham_ | May 24 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | If Ubuntu does starve off Debian, then they better damned well know how to develop a distro on their own | May 24 01:29 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : who is responsible for the high encryption of 15 bits then? | May 24 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | (they don't) | May 24 01:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | Anyway, I'm off to play a tower defense game. Disappointed in the level of discourse today. :( | May 24 01:30 |
| bye | May 24 01:30 | |
| sorry people are stinking the place up | May 24 01:30 | |
| _Hicham_ | ushimitsudoki : never be afraid of the truth | May 24 01:30 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: Debian coped the flack but maintains of other distributions who just copied should also cop flack. | May 24 01:30 |
| DaemonFC | that's OK, you outnumber me 16-1 | May 24 01:30 |
| DaemonFC | remember :P | May 24 01:30 |
| _Hicham_ | we all want linux to progress | May 24 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Remeber Linus saying many eyes make bugs shallow. | May 24 01:31 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : it lasted for three years | May 24 01:31 |
| oiaohm | People were not checking each others work. | May 24 01:31 |
| MinceR | 024138 < DaemonFC> Debian didn't go to sleep, nothing stops you from using Testing | May 24 01:31 |
| oiaohm | So QC failed | May 24 01:31 |
| MinceR | except my desire to have a stable, reliable system? | May 24 01:31 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : do u know what was the problem? | May 24 01:31 |
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| DaemonFC | Testing is not unstable | May 24 01:31 |
| DaemonFC | Unstable is unstable | May 24 01:31 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Yep disabled randomisation _Hicham_ | May 24 01:31 |
| oiaohm | It did gain speed. | May 24 01:31 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: yes, i'm sure "stable" is just an illusion and "testing" really means "stable | May 24 01:32 |
| _Hicham_ | no, he modified the code to suppress some compiler warnings | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | Debian Testing is at the least, more reliable than Ubuntu | May 24 01:32 |
| MinceR | " | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | course Ubuntu sets a low benchmark | May 24 01:32 |
| MinceR | if it's at the least more reliable then what it is at the most? | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | you may get a minor bug sometimes | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | happened to me once | May 24 01:32 |
| DaemonFC | *shrugs* | May 24 01:33 |
| my laptop's stability is not illusion under stable or testing | May 24 01:33 | |
| _Hicham_ | remember when u told me that Fedora guys let a lot of compiler warnings unprocessed? | May 24 01:33 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_: the big one was random generater disabled. | May 24 01:33 |
| DaemonFC | you should see the shitstorm of compiler warnings when you compile an Ubuntu kernel | May 24 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | Debian is really rock stable | May 24 01:33 |
| oiaohm | That is why keys were not generating correctly _Hicham_ | May 24 01:33 |
| and Debian does not "rot" | May 24 01:33 | |
| MinceR | gn | May 24 01:34 |
| _Hicham_ | they were generated at 15 bits level | May 24 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu is day old garbage | May 24 01:34 |
| _Hicham_ | gn MinceR | May 24 01:34 |
| I've got Woody systems on the shelf that will work as well today as they did when I turned them off five years ago. | May 24 01:34 | |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_ later openssl has detection of random number generate is disabled. | May 24 01:34 |
| I've got Etch for this laptop sitting on a spare hard drive. | May 24 01:34 | |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: I made fun of the OpenSSL bug when I wrote the Ubuntu article in Uncyclopedia | May 24 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Once gcc flag basically could cripple openssl. | May 24 01:35 |
| it too boots up without a problem and runs great, maybe better than Lenny. | May 24 01:35 | |
| DaemonFC | “Ubuntu, now with non-random OpenSSL keys” | May 24 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | ~ OpenSSL on Ubuntu | May 24 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | “Ubuntu, now with random OpenSSL keys” | May 24 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | ~ OpenSSL-blacklist on Ubuntu | May 24 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Problem is lot of distributions had appled that flag globally. | May 24 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | This article is about the third world operating system. For the article about the third world philosophy, Go Screw Yourself. It ain't never comin' back! | May 24 01:36 |
| DaemonFC | :D | May 24 01:36 |
| MinceR | is that meant to be funny? | May 24 01:36 |
| _Hicham_ | QA failure as u said | May 24 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Failure to upstream about the warnings in code to make sure correct was correct was another Debian failure _Hicham_ | May 24 01:36 |
| _Hicham_ | that is another Debian pitfall | May 24 01:37 |
| _Hicham_ | low collaboration with upstream | May 24 01:37 |
| oiaohm | Redhat took leason from it. | May 24 01:37 |
| oiaohm | And rewrote there rules. | May 24 01:37 |
| oiaohm | That its upstream at all costs. | May 24 01:37 |
| _Hicham_ | RedHat is professional | May 24 01:37 |
| _Hicham_ | they know how to manage things | May 24 01:37 |
| oiaohm | Before the debian mess Redhat was not upstreaming everything. | May 24 01:37 |
| oiaohm | So they learnt from the mess. | May 24 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Debian was not alone here. | May 24 01:38 |
| oiaohm | gentoo also learnt from it. | May 24 01:38 |
| _Hicham_ | RedHat basically is upstream | May 24 01:39 |
| oiaohm | But there are a lot of distributions that have not learnt the leason that maintainers must have a good releation ship with upstream. | May 24 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Failure to do so risks hell. | May 24 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | its developer are the upstream ones | May 24 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | like Ubuntu | May 24 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | take Firefox | May 24 01:39 |
| DaemonFC | yes, Red Hat is the authority on a lot of things | May 24 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | add Debian patches | May 24 01:39 |
| _Hicham_ | add their own patches | May 24 01:40 |
| DaemonFC | by virtue of being the largest single contributor | May 24 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | and create a big mess | May 24 01:40 |
| oiaohm | RedHat is authority based on quality of work. | May 24 01:40 |
| DaemonFC | Red Hat and Novell essentially do all the work on ALSA | May 24 01:40 |
| oiaohm | Novell you don't trust as much. | May 24 01:40 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell is a big contributor | May 24 01:40 |
| DaemonFC | the kernel developer who fixed the issues Ubuntu has with my sound card (Which didn't land in Jaunty) is from Novell | May 24 01:41 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu basically is not an authority on their own system | May 24 01:41 |
| DaemonFC | because they do like 0.001% of the work on the parts of it | May 24 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Going into main kernel it has to be audited any how. | May 24 01:41 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell employs Greg Kroah Hartman | May 24 01:41 |
| tacone | ubuntu seems to backport a lot more to debian than to upstrems | May 24 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Greg Kroah Martman is a good maintainer even before he worked for Novell. | May 24 01:42 |
| DaemonFC | well, I'm not going to ignore a perfectly valid gripe just because of where it came from | May 24 01:42 |
| ha ha, another W32 worm embarrassment http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/05/23/1733231/Malware-Found-On-Brand-New-Windows-Netbook?art_pos=3 This is why it's a good idea to not run Windows and to wipe any distro and install your favorite. | May 24 01:42 | |
| DaemonFC | hahahahaa | May 24 01:42 |
| DaemonFC | GNUtard | May 24 01:42 |
| DaemonFC | wasn't that your 17th sockpuppet? | May 24 01:42 |
| you are my sockpuppet, FC | May 24 01:42 | |
| DaemonFC | please go auto erotically asphyxiate yourself | May 24 01:42 |
| look at that hostility | May 24 01:43 | |
| oiaohm | Only some people ever make good software maintainers. | May 24 01:43 |
| hugs FC | May 24 01:43 | |
| Windows users need those daily | May 24 01:43 | |
| oiaohm | Greg Kroah also has a standing invite to Redhat for good reasons. | May 24 01:43 |
| DaemonFC | he should probably take them up on that | May 24 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | when Novell will go bankrupt | May 24 01:44 |
| DaemonFC | more money and off the sinking ship | May 24 01:44 |
| DaemonFC | what's keeping him? | May 24 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Depends if he wants Novell to float or not. | May 24 01:44 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | May 24 01:44 | |
| DaemonFC | Red Hat is booming | May 24 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | he is not interested in Novell | May 24 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | but he hates Canonical | May 24 01:44 |
| DaemonFC | and Novell is breaking even at its best right now | May 24 01:44 |
| oiaohm | Remember Greg did not start as a novell employee. | May 24 01:44 |
| oiaohm | It started with SUSE. | May 24 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | and SuSe is bought by Novell | May 24 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why he stayed with it | May 24 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | SuSe is a marvellous distro | May 24 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | which is tainted by Novell | May 24 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | and puppet Miguel de Icaza | May 24 01:45 |
| DaemonFC | it's not getting any better you know? | May 24 01:46 |
| oiaohm | It was Greg who got the opensuse project running. | May 24 01:46 |
| DaemonFC | every release is buggier and slower | May 24 01:46 |
| DaemonFC | http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Geocities | May 24 01:47 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | May 24 01:47 |
| *goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | May 24 01:47 | |
| oiaohm | Mind you Greg Kroah also has guts. Who else would be game enough to risk there maintainer ship rep to ship incomplete drivers with the main Linux kernel. | May 24 01:47 |
| _Hicham_ | these are not incomplete drivers | May 24 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | these are necessary drivers | May 24 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Tanted means incomplete in testing. | May 24 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | I must agree they are incomplete from a certain point of view | May 24 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | but it was a necessary move | May 24 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | and I appreciated it | May 24 01:49 |
| oiaohm | He put his head on the line if it was not implemented correctly. | May 24 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | now my webcam driver is finally merged into the kernel main tree | May 24 01:49 |
| oiaohm | That I do respect. He will stand up for what he believes in and take the required risks. | May 24 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | those drivers have got testing | May 24 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | community testing | May 24 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | what else do u want? | May 24 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Some of those drivers have been rewriten completely. | May 24 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | a lot of hardware have been reverse engineered to find its drivers | May 24 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Makign the taint flag work its not been a major issue to debuging. | May 24 01:51 |
| DaemonFC | http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Worst_100_Firefox_extensions | May 24 01:51 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux should support the widest range of hardware | May 24 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Now if it had not worked as expected he would have been up the creek with every other maintainer out to kill him. | May 24 01:51 |
| oiaohm | That is why I say it took guts. | May 24 01:51 |
| is there anything that supports more hardware than Linux? | May 24 01:52 | |
| DaemonFC | Windows | May 24 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Windows and Linux are about equal. | May 24 01:52 |
| Which version, FC? | May 24 01:52 | |
| oiaohm | on x86 | May 24 01:52 |
| oiaohm | On other process windows losess. | May 24 01:52 |
| DaemonFC | x64 has the same hardware support on most things bought since 2005 | May 24 01:53 |
| Stuff that worked under 98 probably don't under XP and surely don't under Vista | May 24 01:53 | |
| DaemonFC | who cares? | May 24 01:53 |
| oiaohm | Linux has good x86 on hardware pre that. | May 24 01:53 |
| DaemonFC | why would you have a PC that old? | May 24 01:53 |
| DaemonFC | I want my new stuff to work | May 24 01:53 |
| someone who owns an old printer, camera or other piece of hardware | May 24 01:53 | |
| DaemonFC | not something I bought 11 years ago | May 24 01:53 |
| oiaohm | My current machine is 6 years old. | May 24 01:53 |
| my laptop is 7 | May 24 01:53 | |
| oiaohm | harddrive been replaced. | May 24 01:53 |
| oiaohm | and ram. | May 24 01:53 |
| chips_b_malroy | example back up tape drive | May 24 01:54 |
| oiaohm | But other than that its good. | May 24 01:54 |
| oiaohm | Not everyone updates there machines like bats out of hell DaemonFC. | May 24 01:54 |
| DaemonFC | yeah well for people with hardware made in the last two years, you may have compatibility issues with Linux | May 24 01:54 |
| DaemonFC | if there's even ever a driver | May 24 01:54 |
| DaemonFC | most often the drivers are reverse engineered and may not work fully | May 24 01:55 |
| yes, that's a problem with M$ and hardware maker collusion. | May 24 01:55 | |
| oiaohm | Linux and windows are both at different ends. | May 24 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Older stuff Linux wins. | May 24 01:55 |
| but really, 2 year old hardware should work fine | May 24 01:55 | |
| DaemonFC | nope | May 24 01:55 |
| Balrog_ | latest hardware usually works fine | May 24 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Lot of 2 year old hardware does work. | May 24 01:55 |
| DaemonFC | lots of stuff that doesn't work unless you have Windows | May 24 01:56 |
| It's really new stuff or crap like broadcom that makes problems | May 24 01:56 | |
| DaemonFC | both hardware and software | May 24 01:56 |
| developers have a tendency to make good hardware work | May 24 01:56 | |
| _Hicham_ | Intel hardware works | May 24 01:56 |
| _Hicham_ | HP hardware works | May 24 01:56 |
| stuff with firmware gets passed on to people who don't mind | May 24 01:56 | |
| oiaohm | Funny enough lot of cases quality of the device also lines up to driver support for Linux. | May 24 01:56 |
| _Hicham_ | IBM hardware works | May 24 01:56 |
| generally | May 24 01:57 | |
| chips_b_malroy | how many printers and tvcards did vista orphan, and will work in linux | May 24 01:57 |
| and it's generally good | May 24 01:57 | |
| oiaohm | lexmark printers are the only ones I know that can break them selves just because windows crashed. | May 24 01:57 |
| DaemonFC | none | May 24 01:57 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: you mean in hardware? | May 24 01:57 |
| DaemonFC | Vista works with XP era TV cards | May 24 01:57 |
| really? | May 24 01:57 | |
| DaemonFC | and you can use Vista TV card drivers in XP | May 24 01:57 |
| _Hicham_ | Vista doesn't work with itself | May 24 01:58 |
| DaemonFC | I've done both | May 24 01:58 |
| From what I've read, M$ dumped the XP driver model at the last minute when they rolled Vista out. | May 24 01:58 | |
| DaemonFC | no | May 24 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Yep lexmark printers can hammer side of case until moter burns out. | May 24 01:58 |
| DaemonFC | XP drivers work for most things | May 24 01:58 |
| It broke lots of hardware and Vista never really recovered from the shock. | May 24 01:58 | |
| DaemonFC | even video drivers, but then you can't use DirectX 10 | May 24 01:58 |
| would you like me to point you to court documents and M$ email? | May 24 01:58 | |
| DaemonFC | you can use chipset drivers from XP | May 24 01:58 |
| DaemonFC | and sound drivers | May 24 01:58 |
| DaemonFC | and most network drivers | May 24 01:58 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahaha | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | but they'll use NDIS 5.1 | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | not 6 | May 24 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | not true DaemonFC | May 24 01:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | maybe if there are high def | May 24 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | and you know it | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | I've used XP wifi drivers on Vista | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | they work | May 24 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Hmm | May 24 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Don't do that on a Laptop DaemonFC | May 24 01:59 |
| chips_b_malroy | mostly they do not work | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | I have used all XP drivers on a Vista set up before | May 24 01:59 |
| DaemonFC | and it all worked | May 24 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | Compaq never made Vista drivers for my laptop | May 24 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | so I just used all the XP drivers | May 24 02:00 |
| oiaohm | It does depend on your hardware if that works. | May 24 02:00 |
| chips_b_malroy | average user does not have those skills | May 24 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | worked on everything I've ever done it with | May 24 02:00 |
| oiaohm | I know of one HP with webcam. | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | double click on the installer? | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | It don't work. | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | yeah it will\ | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Install XP drive | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | run it in XP Compatibility Mode | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | will fool the installer | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | get blue screen of death. | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | hmmmm | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Followed by red | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | I used Creative's XP drivers for an old webcam Vista said it didn't support | May 24 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | worked fine | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Complete system death. | May 24 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Some work. | May 24 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Some don't. | May 24 02:02 |
| well, if things work FC it's against M$'s best efforts http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/197498 | May 24 02:02 | |
| DaemonFC | must be rare that they don't | May 24 02:02 |
| chips_b_malroy | I might believe you more if you said a few or some, but not all | May 24 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Note it was a PCI connected webcam. | May 24 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | everything I've tried | May 24 02:02 |
| oiaohm | Build into laptop. | May 24 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | mine was USB | May 24 02:02 |
| oiaohm | USB find. | May 24 02:02 |
| oiaohm | PCI one pray. | May 24 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | lots of times they jsut lie to sell you a new one | May 24 02:03 |
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| DaemonFC | even though the XP driver works | May 24 02:03 |
| oiaohm | PCI ones are rare. | May 24 02:03 |
| quit ling FC | May 24 02:03 | |
| oiaohm | Nomrally only found in laptops. | May 24 02:03 |
| DaemonFC | people that complain about drivers, there's like a 90% chance that they don't know what they're doing | May 24 02:04 |
| DaemonFC | and couldn't find their ass with both hands looking | May 24 02:04 |
| oiaohm | One scsi controller I had needs driver does nto work with Vista either. | May 24 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Yes you can install driver but system will die. | May 24 02:04 |
| *tacone has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | May 24 02:04 | |
| oiaohm | Works fine with XP and 2003 | May 24 02:04 |
| Steven Sinofsky, chief of Windows development, [other changes in Vista blocked Windows XP drivers altogether] "This is across the board for printers, scanners, WAN, accessories and so on. Many of the associated applets don't run within the constraints of the security model or the new video/audio driver models." | May 24 02:05 | |
| I've got his opinion, FC and I've got yours. hmmmm. | May 24 02:05 | |
| DaemonFC | well, I know what I've installed and it runs | May 24 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Anything that is generic enough in driver construction works accross both. | May 24 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Anything that uses the bits MS changed results are evil. | May 24 02:06 |
| DaemonFC | now 64-bit Vista has other policies, but really didn't have a predecessor | May 24 02:06 |
| DaemonFC | most XP X64 drivers will work though | May 24 02:06 |
| M$ may have tried to fix a few of these issues, but mostly they pay people to lie about them. | May 24 02:06 | |
| DaemonFC | yeah, put your tin foil hat on | May 24 02:06 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: you are lucky with Windows and Unlucky with Linux for some reason. | May 24 02:07 |
| I'd rather research the opinions of people inside M$ to know what's going on. | May 24 02:07 | |
| tin foil is for people who'd rather not listen or research | May 24 02:07 | |
| DaemonFC | most things work fine for me in Linux and require little or no extra setup | May 24 02:07 |
| DaemonFC | but that TV card will never be supported | May 24 02:07 |
| this may be true. | May 24 02:07 | |
| DaemonFC | and I'm not going to leave a $150 device functionless | May 24 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Did it force you to reinstall the complete OS. | May 24 02:08 |
| they cost more like $20 | May 24 02:08 | |
| DaemonFC | not the decent ones | May 24 02:08 |
| DaemonFC | the analog ones maybe | May 24 02:08 |
| oiaohm | That PCI embed webcam did. | May 24 02:08 |
| there's little difference in the chipsets, FC | May 24 02:08 | |
| oiaohm | It managed to screw up disk interfacing somehow. | May 24 02:08 |
| DaemonFC | they have a fire sale going on analog ones | May 24 02:08 |
| DaemonFC | those are worthless | May 24 02:08 |
| and you are better off with analog than DRM encumbered | May 24 02:09 | |
| DaemonFC | I have an HD signal, and Aver has the best cards | May 24 02:09 |
| DaemonFC | not just for the hardware, but their media center | May 24 02:09 |
| DaemonFC | no DRM | May 24 02:09 |
| DaemonFC | I can record the signal in HD | May 24 02:09 |
| oiaohm | There will be no free to air analog signal here soon. | May 24 02:09 |
| DaemonFC | in MPEG-4, MPEG-2, WMV, a number of others | May 24 02:09 |
| Get an HD to analog converter. All HD cards have DRM baked in, and Vista does too of course | May 24 02:09 | |
| DaemonFC | mine doesn't | May 24 02:09 |
| chips_b_malroy | you need a converter box for the old analog tv card. and I have two tv cards that work in linux | May 24 02:10 |
| Of course Vista does | May 24 02:10 | |
| and the hardware does to. | May 24 02:10 | |
| DaemonFC | it can even record straight to a DVD format | May 24 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Lot of HD cards don't have it in the hardware. | May 24 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | complete with menus | May 24 02:10 |
| oiaohm | It in the software. | May 24 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | no, there's no DRM | May 24 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | there is in Windows Media Center | May 24 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | but it's not in the driver or the OS | May 24 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Use the right software you can bypass it. | May 24 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | I don't use Windows Media Center | May 24 02:11 |
| Older HD cards don't but almost all listen to the "broadcast flag" at the hardware level | May 24 02:11 | |
| DaemonFC | I don't even have it installed | May 24 02:11 |
| DaemonFC | (Vista Business) | May 24 02:11 |
| DaemonFC | AverMedia Center has no DRM | May 24 02:11 |
| oiaohm | Broadcast flag was found to upset users. | May 24 02:11 |
| DaemonFC | Aver doesn't acknowledge those flags | May 24 02:11 |
| oiaohm | It was only in hardware for about 1 year. | May 24 02:11 |
| they will pull it out more and more | May 24 02:11 | |
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| chips_b_malroy | macrovision is still DRM and its on xp as well | May 24 02:12 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing stopping me from doing anything I want | May 24 02:12 |
| Yesterday it was American Gladiators, tomorow who knows. | May 24 02:12 | |
| oiaohm | Mostly because due to interfernece it could turn on when it should not. | May 24 02:12 |
| DaemonFC | and when there is, well I won't use it anymore | May 24 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Like not being able to record ads out a program due to it. | May 24 02:12 |
| DaemonFC | personally, I've not been able to trip Windows DRM | May 24 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Kinda did not go done well with advertises. | May 24 02:12 |
| DaemonFC | even when I tried to provoke it | May 24 02:12 |
| it is not under your control, you can not provoke | May 24 02:12 | |
| oiaohm | Advertisers are one of the few people who don't care. | May 24 02:12 |
| oiaohm | about copiing. | May 24 02:13 |
| DaemonFC | no, I've done things that should have triggered it | May 24 02:13 |
| oiaohm | To be correct they want it. | May 24 02:13 |
| DaemonFC | but they don't | May 24 02:13 |
| DaemonFC | so I think the issue is overblown | May 24 02:13 |
| it's intent that matters, FC | May 24 02:13 | |
| oiaohm | Its like the idea that dvd decription had to be drive side. | May 24 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Most hardware companyes said screw that. | May 24 02:14 |
| chips_b_malroy | Daemon, if you are using all unsigned uncertified xp drivers for you video and audio, forget hdmi output | May 24 02:14 |
| chips_b_malroy | ie blueray | May 24 02:14 |
| oiaohm | There are ways to make blueray play even without hdmi. | May 24 02:15 |
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| DaemonFC | Blu Ray doesn't trigger it | May 24 02:15 |
| DaemonFC | I'm using DVI | May 24 02:15 |
| HD movies are beautiful but not worth the freedom they remove | May 24 02:15 | |
| DaemonFC | so it should but it doesn't | May 24 02:15 |
| chips_b_malroy | yes, but the resolution will be less | May 24 02:15 |
| DaemonFC | no | May 24 02:15 |
| DaemonFC | resolution is full | May 24 02:15 |
| DaemonFC | none of the discs use the token | May 24 02:15 |
| _boo_ | wtf even buys blu rays? | May 24 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Most blue ray makers learnt lession from PS3. | May 24 02:16 |
| Balrog_ | someone I know rents blu rays and copies them | May 24 02:16 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, illega | May 24 02:16 |
| Balrog_ | illegal * | May 24 02:16 |
| DaemonFC | I have a BD-RW drive | May 24 02:16 |
| chips_b_malroy | do you have an hdmi output on that laptop even? | May 24 02:16 |
| oiaohm | remember how PS3 connect by hdmi would sometimes flicker like hell. | May 24 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Cause encryption colaspe. | May 24 02:16 |
| Balrog_ | chips_b_malroy: DVI is HDMI without sound | May 24 02:16 |
| DaemonFC | on the laptop? hell no that thing is old | May 24 02:17 |
| chips_b_malroy | since u r using all xp drivers, I say no | May 24 02:17 |
| I rip my movies to 720 x 480 theora anyway | May 24 02:17 | |
| Balrog_ | DVI to HDMI cables are cheap | May 24 02:17 |
| don't need HD | May 24 02:17 | |
| DaemonFC | I'm using Vista drivers on this | May 24 02:17 |
| Balrog_ | twitter: hope you're using thusnelda | May 24 02:17 |
| chips_b_malroy | the hdmi will be disabled | May 24 02:17 |
| oiaohm | So the hdmi protected path will risk upset customers. | May 24 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Nop chips_b_malroy | May 24 02:17 |
| I'm not sure what Lenny's ffmpeg2theora uses | May 24 02:17 | |
| oiaohm | There is a way to force Vista to open it. | May 24 02:17 |
| chips_b_malroy | but since u do not have one, u cannot tell | May 24 02:17 |
| works for me | May 24 02:17 | |
| Balrog_ | twitter: ffmpeg2theora uses whatever libtheora is installed | May 24 02:17 |
| *ushimitsudoki1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | May 24 02:17 | |
| what's the difference Balrog? | May 24 02:18 | |
| DaemonFC | I also have an HD-DVD ROM drive | May 24 02:18 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Protected path is more of a joke. | May 24 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | thusnelda provides around double the quality of stable libtheora | May 24 02:18 |
| chips_b_malroy | yes, it can be opened buy not at blueray max resolution | May 24 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | AnyDVD HD (not foss) strips most BD drm | May 24 02:18 |
| thanks for the tip | May 24 02:18 | |
| DaemonFC | yes I know :) | May 24 02:18 |
| chips_b_malroy | anydvd rips | May 24 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | get it from svn and install it | May 24 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Remember Vista business can use HDMI without protected path chips_b_malroy | May 24 02:18 |
| Balrog_ | keep it up to date :) | May 24 02:18 |
| chips_b_malroy | and unprotectes as clone2dvd works | May 24 02:18 |
| DaemonFC | there is no DRM that can't be cracked | May 24 02:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's all bullshit | May 24 02:19 |
| DaemonFC | the sky has been falling since 1996 | May 24 02:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's taking its sweet time | May 24 02:19 |
| _boo_ | if theora is divx class then x264 is definitely better | May 24 02:19 |
| oiaohm | So unless you don't want business machiens to play your videos. You will not enable the heavy drm. | May 24 02:19 |
| chips_b_malroy | anydvd is not really a high quality playback device | May 24 02:19 |
| ffmpeg2theora at -v 6 is about as good as I need for archives but I'll use thusnelda if it's free and does better for the space used | May 24 02:20 | |
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| Balrog_ | it's just a better algorithm | May 24 02:20 |
| _boo_ | why not x264? | May 24 02:20 |
| Balrog_ | old VLC won't play it though | May 24 02:20 |
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| Balrog_ | (because it didn't meet the spec) | May 24 02:21 |
| what spec? | May 24 02:21 | |
| chips_b_malroy | I would like to see anydvdhd and clone2dvd to be ported to linux or run in wine | May 24 02:21 |
| Balrog_ | <https://trac.xiph.org/browser/branches/theora-thusnelda> | May 24 02:21 |
| Balrog_ | the theora spec | May 24 02:22 |
| Balrog_ | it only partially met the full spec | May 24 02:22 |
| chips_b_malroy | DVDFAB5 works very well in wine, on the setup page u have to use the arrow keys a lot | May 24 02:24 |
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| oiaohm | Thre exists blueray decodes on Linux. | May 24 02:26 |
| oiaohm | Just they don't intergrate into media players. | May 24 02:26 |
| chips_b_malroy | nerolinux can burn dvds in linux | May 24 02:26 |
| oiaohm | k3b with right support parts burns blueray | May 24 02:27 |
| chips_b_malroy | oiaohm I have not seen them | May 24 02:27 |
| Oh yeah, FC, I only use sock puppets on Slashdot because moderation abuse limited me to one comment a day. twitter sockpuppets on your blog are all impostors as many from "twitter" may be. | May 24 02:27 | |
| oiaohm | there around chips_b_malroy does not take much searching to find them chips_b_malroy. | May 24 02:27 |
| DaemonFC | in other words | May 24 02:35 |
| DaemonFC | enough people found you to be a whiney bitch gaming the system and responding to your own posts | May 24 02:35 |
| DaemonFC | that they modded you down to where you could barely post | May 24 02:36 |
| DaemonFC | that takes a lot | May 24 02:36 |
| There's that skull of your, FC. | May 24 02:36 | |
| I started using sockpuppets after the turfers shut me down | May 24 02:37 | |
| not before | May 24 02:37 | |
| DaemonFC | no it really does take a lot of users to mod you that way | May 24 02:37 |
| oiaohm | doom.org forum DaemonFC a place kinda decated to breaking DRM. | May 24 02:37 |
| DaemonFC | so maybe it's not everyone else | May 24 02:37 |
| DaemonFC | and you're the innocent victim | May 24 02:37 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 02:37 |
| it takes people interested in gaming the system | May 24 02:37 | |
| you know, these SEO and "reputation defender" types M$ hires | May 24 02:38 | |
| _boo_ | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_shanghai_opensolaris&num=1 | May 24 02:38 |
| Slashdot itself is the victim. | May 24 02:38 | |
| _boo_ | benchmarks of opensolaris vs ubuntu | May 24 02:38 |
| that should be interesting | May 24 02:38 | |
| *kentma has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | May 24 02:38 | |
| DaemonFC | Phoronix is heavily biased to Ubuntu | May 24 02:39 |
| DaemonFC | and can't even interpret Bonnie++ | May 24 02:39 |
| people at Slashdot have a high enough opinion of me http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/217907 | May 24 02:40 | |
| and M$ hates me for sure | May 24 02:41 | |
| DaemonFC | no, they don't care | May 24 02:41 |
| DaemonFC | sure, you cooked them up too | May 24 02:42 |
| *ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | May 24 02:43 | |
| So they smear. | May 24 02:45 | |
| Would you know anything about that kind of work, FC? | May 24 02:46 | |
| Sitting in on GNU/Linux discussion boards to promote Windows and say nasty things about GNU/Linux? | May 24 02:46 | |
| harassing the people there ... | May 24 02:46 | |
| interesting benchmarks, boo, looks like OpenSolaris was beat | May 24 02:48 | |
| it seems to work well enough | May 24 02:48 | |
| basically stable | May 24 02:48 | |
| Open Solaris and Ubuntu probably target different audiences. I know the place I work wants very conservative software for the task they use OpenSolaris for | May 24 02:50 | |
| I would rather have Debian stable, but it's not my job to pick and chose. | May 24 02:51 | |
| DaemonFC | their benchmarks are meaningless | May 24 02:53 |
| DaemonFC | they only throw certain workloads that Solaris is obviously not optimized for | May 24 02:54 |
| DaemonFC | and ignore database benchmarks | May 24 02:54 |
| DaemonFC | and security | May 24 02:54 |
| DaemonFC | neither of which Ubuntu could do well | May 24 02:54 |
| so both OpenSolaris and Ubuntu are the pits, FC? | May 24 02:59 | |
| DaemonFC | OpenSolaris is not a desktop OS | May 24 03:00 |
| DaemonFC | and Ubuntu is not something you'd want to use for any serious task | May 24 03:00 |
| Why M$ is going into debt. They pursue their crazy stock buy back program, " Microsoft plans to use the proceeds to fund its $40 billion stock repurchase program and the company said it does not need capital for its business operations." | May 24 03:00 | |
| http://www.123jump.com/market-update/Financials-Pullback;-Microsoft-Debt-Offering/32811/ | May 24 03:00 | |
| DaemonFC | oddly enough, OpenSolaris works pretty well on my machine | May 24 03:01 |
| oiaohm | twitter: I know your point on closed source. I want to raise something. What is worse open source bounties where X ammount of money must be give before coder starts coding solution. Or a tempory closed source part that will be released once the money required it met. | May 24 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | I wouldn't use it as a primary OS though | May 24 03:01 |
| It's funny that they can't keep the price over $20, but then again Bill sold his for less. | May 24 03:01 | |
| DaemonFC | you have to rig it to get Linux stuff to run | May 24 03:01 |
| there's nothing wrong with offering money to get things done, Ohm. | May 24 03:02 | |
| it does not keep anyone from doing things before or after | May 24 03:02 | |
| I prefer that companies and people pay people to get stuff done that they can't do themselves and that the results be free software right away. | May 24 03:03 | |
| It costs nothing to share | May 24 03:03 | |
| oiaohm | Closed source fits in when that cannot happen. | May 24 03:03 |
| when would that ever be? | May 24 03:03 | |
| If I want something done, the tools are available. | May 24 03:03 | |
| oiaohm | Normally custom part need quicky buy a companies without the funds to aford doing it. Developers bet that other companies will want it and will pay the development short fall. | May 24 03:05 |
| ? | May 24 03:05 | |
| oiaohm | Open source bounties work pay in advance. | May 24 03:05 |
| oiaohm | Closed source that will release to open source when money is paid is the other way. | May 24 03:06 |
| oiaohm | Coder does the work and recovers costs latter. | May 24 03:06 |
| oiaohm | Both have there place so coders eat. | May 24 03:07 |
| The work usually pays for itself, that's why most of it gets done. | May 24 03:07 | |
| that's how 90% of the world's coders earn a living | May 24 03:07 | |
| oiaohm | Smaller firms that cannot afford coders. | May 24 03:07 |
| oiaohm | In there own right. | May 24 03:07 |
| they customize software to make it work for particular purposes. | May 24 03:07 | |
| Everyone can afford free software | May 24 03:08 | |
| oiaohm | The bounty system and closed source for a time work with. | May 24 03:08 |
| freedom will always work and there will always be ways to get things done. non free software will always impose restrictions that keep you from getting things done. | May 24 03:08 | |
| DaemonFC | like? | May 24 03:12 |
| like not having source code for easy modification | May 24 03:14 | |
| like not being able to use ODF | May 24 03:14 | |
| like avoiding sabotage of competing programs | May 24 03:14 | |
| the list of abuse from non free software companies is long | May 24 03:14 | |
| free software does not impose restrictions so you can do what you want with it and pay who you want to change it | May 24 03:15 | |
| does anyone know the recent history of M$FT buy backs? | May 24 03:16 | |
| It is sickening that they fire employees so that they can buy back their stock. | May 24 03:17 | |
| They reward some employees by punishing others that way. | May 24 03:17 | |
| What a rotten place to work. | May 24 03:18 | |
| M$ Death Watch updated, http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707 | May 24 03:18 | |
| The impact on Seattle and Washington of those job losses in large. It would be sad to learn that it was completely avoidable. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundeconomywithjontalton/2009176778_microsoft_layoffs_send_mixed_m.html | May 24 03:27 | |
| Of course, it would be better for M$ to just become a healthy free software company like IBM. | May 24 03:28 | |
| *kentma (n=user@ellandroad.demon.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 03:28 | |
| I wonder how accurate this comment is, http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/reader_feedback/public/display.php?thread=119665&offset=0#post_411643 | May 24 03:29 | |
| -> " they are still hiring contractors while laying-off regular employees. If they think this will generate faithful workers they are DEAD WRONG!!!!!" | May 24 03:29 | |
| DaemonFC | companies usually do that | May 24 03:30 |
| The next one is funny. " The MS layoffs are just more bad news for the economy. What's the "mixed message" in that?" | May 24 03:30 | |
| DaemonFC | contractors don't get benefits | May 24 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | or unemploymen | May 24 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | *unemployment insurance | May 24 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | much cheaper to hire | May 24 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | it's not bad news | May 24 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | it just makes sense for the bottom line | May 24 03:31 |
| exploitation can only come from a position of power. | May 24 03:31 | |
| looks more like last minute looting of the company than anything else | May 24 03:31 | |
| DaemonFC | oh, and contractors can't join a union | May 24 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | no, it makes sense | May 24 03:32 |
| DaemonFC | they can keep a contractor for however long they like | May 24 03:32 |
| sure it makes sense, if you are doing the looting | May 24 03:32 | |
| they hack costs to pay themselves | May 24 03:32 | |
| DaemonFC | there's no way they can lose | May 24 03:32 |
| they even go into debt to do it | May 24 03:32 | |
| DaemonFC | by calling employees contractors | May 24 03:32 |
| DaemonFC | I've seen lots of companies do that | May 24 03:33 |
| they can lose if they end up with a bunch of employees without loyalty, but they won't care if all they are doing is looting | May 24 03:33 | |
| DaemonFC | employee loyalty is a myth | May 24 03:33 |
| you have seen a lot of companies do it and you have seen a lot of companies fall over | May 24 03:33 | |
| DaemonFC | not the ones that do it | May 24 03:34 |
| that's why we dip into a depression | May 24 03:34 | |
| DaemonFC | they usually make record profits every year | May 24 03:34 |
| DaemonFC | wrong | May 24 03:34 |
| Wamu | May 24 03:34 | |
| DaemonFC | the depression is just generated | May 24 03:34 |
| DaemonFC | it's artificial | May 24 03:34 |
| more than 35 banks have failed | May 24 03:34 | |
| DaemonFC | wrong | May 24 03:34 |
| DaemonFC | they didn't fail | May 24 03:34 |
| no? | May 24 03:34 | |
| DaemonFC | it's theater | May 24 03:34 |
| they just could not pay people, that's all. | May 24 03:35 | |
| lol | May 24 03:35 | |
| DaemonFC | the big banks create these things so they can get us to finance their buying of little banks | May 24 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | at rock bottom price | May 24 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | fiat currency and the federal reserve | May 24 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | money that isn't worth the paper it's printed on | May 24 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | legal tender | May 24 03:35 |
| that may be so, but the medium sized banks have really lost ass | May 24 03:35 | |
| DaemonFC | it's all bullshit | May 24 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | it's a fabrication | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | it's conjured up | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | an apparition | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | doesn't exist | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | period | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | figment of the central bank's imagination | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | and if you had the slightest idea of what was going on for real | May 24 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | you wouldn't sleep right | May 24 03:36 |
| 13% unemployment rates are not a fabrication. If anything, it is underreported. | May 24 03:36 | |
| *kentma1 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | May 24 03:37 | |
| DaemonFC | well yeah | May 24 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | that's not a problem | May 24 03:37 |
| house foreclosures are not a fabrication. | May 24 03:37 | |
| DaemonFC | not a problem either | May 24 03:37 |
| so it's not a problem that people are thrown out on the streets? | May 24 03:37 | |
| DaemonFC | you obviously don't understand that none of this is a problem | May 24 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | none of it matters | May 24 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | who cares? | May 24 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | fuck them | May 24 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | that's how bankers think | May 24 03:37 |
| how do you think? do you at all? | May 24 03:38 | |
| DaemonFC | they bought you off with a phone that plays Eminem and doubles as a vibrator | May 24 03:38 |
| what happens when it's your job and your house? | May 24 03:38 | |
| DaemonFC | so be glad | May 24 03:38 |
| DaemonFC | you may be their pet | May 24 03:38 |
| DaemonFC | then it's not important | May 24 03:38 |
| DaemonFC | from their perspective | May 24 03:38 |
| short sighted, FC | May 24 03:39 | |
| DaemonFC | you don't understand, it's not important until people start rioting | May 24 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | then you declare martial law | May 24 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | and shoot them | May 24 03:39 |
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| shoot who? | May 24 03:39 | |
| you? | May 24 03:39 | |
| DaemonFC | but, enough people have to be fucked over so royally that they look up from their ipod and even know they should be angry | May 24 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | that's the threshold where it matters | May 24 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | anyone that resists | May 24 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | will be shot | May 24 03:40 |
| will you do the shooting, FC? | May 24 03:40 | |
| DaemonFC | nope | May 24 03:40 |
| how will you avoid it? | May 24 03:40 | |
| DaemonFC | North American Union | May 24 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | look into it | May 24 03:40 |
| link? | May 24 03:41 | |
| DaemonFC | it's going to replace the USA | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | Canada | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | and Mexico | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | it's already started | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | it started years ago | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | it's forerunner already exists | May 24 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | created by George W. Bush | May 24 03:41 |
| *ushimitsudoki1 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | May 24 03:41 | |
| DaemonFC | http://spp.gov/ | May 24 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America | May 24 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | an unconstitutional treaty | May 24 03:42 |
| so, are you ready to live like a Mexican? | May 24 03:42 | |
| DaemonFC | that was passed without being ratified by the senate | May 24 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | not much I can do | May 24 03:42 |
| oiaohm | If we killed everyone who did something wrong we would very quickly have the problem of having no one to burry the bodies. | May 24 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | they have over 2 million soldiers | May 24 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | with state of the art weaponry | May 24 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | tanks | May 24 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | helicopters | May 24 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | what do I have? | May 24 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | might as well accept it | May 24 03:43 |
| freedom | May 24 03:43 | |
| slave | May 24 03:43 | |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing to do about it | May 24 03:43 |
| oiaohm | A weapon is only as good as the person using it. | May 24 03:44 |
| DaemonFC | unless you want to be killed | May 24 03:44 |
| so, you are OK with political murder, purges and stuff like that? | May 24 03:44 | |
| DaemonFC | they'll be moving things into position, they won't call it the NAU til the last bits are in place | May 24 03:44 |
| I really doubt the US will merge with Mexico. | May 24 03:45 | |
| DaemonFC | that's still at least a year or two out depending on how quickly they can move | May 24 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | not totally | May 24 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | it's going to operate like the EU | May 24 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | it will have a court system that can strike down our laws | May 24 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | a rotating presidency | May 24 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | common currency | May 24 03:45 |
| you really think the US will share a currency with Mexico? | May 24 03:46 | |
| nuts | May 24 03:46 | |
| DaemonFC | yes | May 24 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | we will | May 24 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | nobody governs in the US federal government | May 24 03:46 |
| might as well if we sell our rights away to China | May 24 03:46 | |
| DaemonFC | without being appointed by the Federal Reserve | May 24 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | Obama was selected by them before the election happened | May 24 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | same with Bush | May 24 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | if congress opposes the Fed, they are punished | May 24 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | so they don't | May 24 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Its not like the Mexico/USA border is solid. | May 24 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | the Fed can control interest rates, if they even loan the government anything at all | May 24 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | they can have politicians killed | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | and they have | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | the NAFTA Superhighway | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | Trans-Texas Corridor | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | already constructed | May 24 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Merging currency might make sence. | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's being slipped in piece by piece | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | they never report on any of it | May 24 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's kept out of the news | May 24 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Merged laws to get back all the stolen cars that end up in mexico might be an advantage. | May 24 03:49 |
| Mexican currency does not keep it's value. merging with it is insane | May 24 03:49 | |
| DaemonFC | every bit is designed to look like something else | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | no | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | they have the same kind of currency we do | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | so does Canada | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | so does the UK | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | so do most countries | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | fiat money | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | worthless | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | manipulated | May 24 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's worth whatever the law says it is | May 24 03:50 |
| oiaohm | I still think its funny mexico last goverment car check 90 percent of them were nicked from the USA> | May 24 03:50 |
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| yuhong | What do you think of slashdot now? | May 24 03:50 |
| oiaohm | From a crime point of view merging makes sence. | May 24 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | so the last vestiges of the former United States are being stripped away | May 24 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | and people don't care | May 24 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | too apathetic | May 24 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | the economy is going to be made to "crash" | May 24 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | even worse than it has | May 24 03:51 |
| What do you think yuhong? | May 24 03:51 | |
| DaemonFC | you haven't seen anything yet | May 24 03:51 |
| yuhong | Right now, I don't think it is that bad. | May 24 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | I'd say by next summer | May 24 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | they're going to let it trickle down for a while then slam us with an overnight crash | May 24 03:52 |
| comments still trolled, stories are hit and miss because submissions are trolled. | May 24 03:52 | |
| DaemonFC | that will make it more justified | May 24 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | when our government ratifies and Obama signs the NAU agreement | May 24 03:52 |
| I look at Slashdot when BN is DDoS'd | May 24 03:52 | |
| yuhong | What do you mean by trolled. | May 24 03:53 |
| or when people like FC invite me to, :) | May 24 03:53 | |
| yuhong | What do you mean by trolled? | May 24 03:53 |
| I mean the majority of comments there seem to be by astroturfers and others there to stink the place up. | May 24 03:53 | |
| DaemonFC | twitter is a sockpuppet there | May 24 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | with dozens of identities | May 24 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | backing him up | May 24 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | cause if he doesn't back himself up | May 24 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | who will? :) | May 24 03:53 |
| yuhong | I often search it's archives. | May 24 03:54 |
| oiaohm | MS is turning nuts. | May 24 03:55 |
| oiaohm | Idea of setting a watt limit on a device. | May 24 03:55 |
| M$ has set all sorts of limits | May 24 03:55 | |
| DaemonFC | I think Obama would have a disaster on his hands if he tried to make the case that we need to save Microsoft | May 24 03:56 |
| they want to cripple a place they can't compete | May 24 03:56 | |
| DaemonFC | I mean some people LIKE GM | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | LO | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 03:56 |
| oiaohm | Smaller screen into the size most people dont use. | May 24 03:56 |
| yuhong | Yep, the Starter 3 apps limit aren't new. | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | 3 app limit is gone | May 24 03:56 |
| oiaohm | 3 app limit is gon. | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | on 7 Starter | May 24 03:56 |
| yuhong | It has existed since Starter was first introduced. | May 24 03:56 |
| oiaohm | netbook makers would not take it. | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | whoa | May 24 03:56 |
| oiaohm | The purely refused | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, well shit | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | this isn't Haiti | May 24 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 03:57 |
| is that why the limit was removed, funny | May 24 03:57 | |
| oiaohm | Its going to be funny to see if netbook makers break the rest. | May 24 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | wonder if Starter gets leaked on torrents | May 24 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | and people start using that to escape bloat | May 24 03:57 |
| oiaohm | 1 Gb ram limit could be fun. | May 24 03:58 |
| Windows 7 will probably fail worse than Vista | May 24 03:58 | |
| oiaohm | Particular at the rate IE8 leaks memory. | May 24 03:58 |
| yuhong | Hopefully not, if 7 is indeed less bloated than Vista. | May 24 03:58 |
| 1 GB RAM, that would be an upgrade for my laptop. | May 24 03:58 | |
| 7 is Vista | May 24 03:58 | |
| yuhong | Well, Firefox leaks as well. | May 24 03:58 |
| oiaohm | IE8 leaks faster yuhong | May 24 03:59 |
| yuhong | Well, I will be honest and say that I did not really try to compare, so I can't say. | May 24 04:00 |
| yuhong | I don't think 7 is worse than Vista. | May 24 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Security report is worse. | May 24 04:00 |
| yuhong | 7 isn't Vista. | May 24 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Core of 7 is still Vista | May 24 04:01 |
| yuhong | Not exactly. | May 24 04:01 |
| yuhong | They did improve the kernel. | May 24 04:01 |
| Interest is still low. | May 24 04:01 | |
| yuhong | Maybe. | May 24 04:01 |
| oiaohm | Benchmarks don't show it. | May 24 04:01 |
| yuhong | But 7 isn't the same as Vista. | May 24 04:01 |
| oiaohm | Keep on lieing to your self. | May 24 04:01 |
| It is easy to improve something so broken, but they insist on DRM and other foolishness - it won't perform | May 24 04:02 | |
| oiaohm | Performance wise it is Vista. | May 24 04:02 |
| oiaohm | Some of the stupid things you could disable in Vista that were eating its ram out of house and home are disabled out box. | May 24 04:02 |
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| oiaohm | basically disabled UAC makes Windows 7 fell faster than Vista. | May 24 04:03 |
| oiaohm | Its the same old same old yuhong just re wrapped. | May 24 04:04 |
| yuhong | Well, but the code has changes. | May 24 04:04 |
| yuhong | Well, but the code has changed. | May 24 04:04 |
| yuhong | Yes, the performance may be the same, I am not going to argue that one. | May 24 04:04 |
| yuhong | But the code IS different. | May 24 04:05 |
| oiaohm | What is the point of changing code if you don't gain anything. | May 24 04:05 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows+7%2C+Windows+Vista&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 | May 24 04:05 |
| mib_iqvpen | Lipstick.ChangeColor() | May 24 04:05 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows%2C+Linux&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 | May 24 04:05 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.google.com/trends?q=Windows%2C+Ubuntu&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 | May 24 04:06 |
| yuhong | I am not going to argue whether it gains anything. | May 24 04:06 |
| oiaohm | What did they change yuhong. Massive number of cpu support so it can support like 256 processors. | May 24 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Only 1 problem no one has machines like that. | May 24 04:07 |
| yuhong | But on security, anyone written a Linux boot-time rootkit like the one the written for Windows 7. | May 24 04:07 |
| oiaohm | And machines like that use more than 2 sockets that windows 7 does not support. | May 24 04:07 |
| mib_iqvpen | and the people that do (clusters, supercomputers) run Linux on them | May 24 04:07 |
| yuhong | oiaohm: That is for Server 2008 R2, the server version of Windows 7. | May 24 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Most of the alterations are for Server 2008 | May 24 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Not for Windows 7. | May 24 04:08 |
| DaemonFC | blue pill would be OS-independent | May 24 04:08 |
| oiaohm | There is basically nothing for the desktop user. | May 24 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Other than annoyances removed. | May 24 04:09 |
| oiaohm | That is the total of what Windows 7 is offering. | May 24 04:09 |
| yuhong | BTW, Intel is introducing an x2APIC to support more than 256 CPUs. | May 24 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Linux you nornally don't build 256 CPU systems. | May 24 04:10 |
| oiaohm | When you get to that scale you normally 512 to 1024. | May 24 04:10 |
| mib_iqvpen | no. that's true | May 24 04:10 |
| mib_iqvpen | or more | May 24 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Start line of Linux | May 24 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Is above what Windows supports. | May 24 04:10 |
| yuhong | Server 2008 R2 supports it, as do recent versions of the Linux kernel. | May 24 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel supports way more. | May 24 04:11 |
| oiaohm | And has for years. | May 24 04:11 |
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| oiaohm | 4096 max is default Linux kernel. | May 24 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Custom is over 64000 | May 24 04:12 |
| oiaohm | They are not even in the game really yuhong | May 24 04:12 |
| yuhong | The xAPIC is limited to 256 CPUs. | May 24 04:12 |
| oiaohm | LOL | May 24 04:13 |
| yuhong | The x2APIC supports more, as well as using MSRs for programming instead of MMIO. | May 24 04:13 |
| yuhong | Intel is going to support it with Nehalem-EX. | May 24 04:14 |
| yuhong | I am not going to argue about 7's performance, but it is different code. | May 24 04:15 |
| oiaohm | From the point of view of users that the code is different make no difference. | May 24 04:15 |
| yuhong | Yes. | May 24 04:15 |
| oiaohm | It if results are different. | May 24 04:15 |
| oiaohm | What they are not so its the same old same old. | May 24 04:16 |
| oiaohm | There is a overwrapper to xAPIC that windows does not support. | May 24 04:16 |
| yuhong | I would like to find more about it. | May 24 04:16 |
| yuhong | BTW, one of the challenges involved in supporting more than 64 CPUs in Windows is that existing APIs for setting processor affinity uses one bit per processor. | May 24 04:18 |
| yuhong | So on 64-bit, you are limited to 64 CPUs. | May 24 04:18 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has lots of things in it that were developers so it could scale higher. | May 24 04:19 |
| oiaohm | The advantage of being used in the development hardware. | May 24 04:19 |
| DaemonFC | Vista Business supports 2 physical CPUs with as many cores on them as you want | May 24 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | dunno about Server | May 24 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | probably a lot | May 24 04:20 |
| oiaohm | It only can manage them up to a point. | May 24 04:20 |
| oiaohm | There is always a hard limit. | May 24 04:21 |
| yuhong | Yep, it has always MS's policy to count physical CPUs not cores. | May 24 04:21 |
| yuhong | And that hard limit is what MS is trying to fix with Server 2008 R2's kernel. | May 24 04:21 |
| yuhong | Nehalem-EX has 4 physical CPUs, 8 cores in each of them, and 2 threads in each of them. | May 24 04:22 |
| yuhong | 4 * 8 * 2 = 64 | May 24 04:22 |
| mib_iqvpen | Speaking of hard limits, it appears there will be a new set of hardware restrictions on netbooks, courtesy of MS. | May 24 04:22 |
| mib_iqvpen | http://pcper.com/comments.php?nid=7203#reply | May 24 04:22 |
| oiaohm | The bad part about those limits is a arm cpu and motherboard can do them simply. | May 24 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Just not run windows. | May 24 04:24 |
| It's funny how M$ is spinning the limits | May 24 04:25 | |
| on slashdot, for example, they try to take credit for the rise of ARM netbooks | May 24 04:25 | |
| mib_iqvpen | I hadn't seen that yet. I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when you posted that. | May 24 04:25 |
| idiots will think, oh yeah, Windows 7 made people produce ARM netbooks, as if M$ had not fought tooth and nail against it. | May 24 04:26 | |
| see today's slashdot. | May 24 04:26 | |
| oiaohm | yuhong: biggest channel for Linux at 4096 is OS locking. | May 24 04:26 |
| oiaohm | channel/challenges | May 24 04:26 |
| oiaohm | There are insane cases where correcting 1 lock increases threw put by over 800 percent. | May 24 04:27 |
| mib_iqvpen | still, I might like to have a 12 inch screen. | May 24 04:27 |
| Yes, a 12 inch screen is nice | May 24 04:27 | |
| about as low as I can tollerate | May 24 04:27 | |
| yuhong | Another news on /., BTW, is that a new Windows netbook has been accidentally infected. | May 24 04:27 |
| " Max specs on Windows 7 Starter Edition decide industry direction" More of the same PR. | May 24 04:28 | |
| oiaohm | yuhong: status normal. | May 24 04:28 |
| yuhong | What do you mean? | May 24 04:28 |
| ARM netbooks have been on the way for years. Windows 7 has nothing to do with it and other chip makers are scrambling to be ready | May 24 04:28 | |
| oiaohm | MS machines infected from factor happen on the time. | May 24 04:28 |
| It's nice to see people report it | May 24 04:29 | |
| oiaohm | Most of the time it don't get news coverage. | May 24 04:29 |
| shame, people should know what they are getting into when they use Windows | May 24 04:29 | |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 04:29 |
| mib_iqvpen | You think non-MS slave OEMs will produce hardware that goes around the limits (at least for screen size)? | May 24 04:29 |
| yuhong | Maybe. | May 24 04:29 |
| oiaohm | MS has already dropped 1 limit under presure. | May 24 04:30 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Problem with hardware markers they smell blood they will push. | May 24 04:30 |
| mib_iqvpen | I'd like to get a netbook, but I'm waiting for the ARM ones. I have no interest in them until then. | May 24 04:30 |
| oiaohm | MS has not got to the release yet. | May 24 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Everythign in those limits could change yet. | May 24 04:30 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 04:31 |
| oiaohm | Most likely less. | May 24 04:31 |
| oiaohm | Over all there are less limits this time around. | May 24 04:31 |
| mib_iqvpen | MS can cripple their own OS all they want. If I'm not using it, it doesn't affect me. But I hate to see them cripple my hardware too. | May 24 04:31 |
| yuhong | I already tried to push MS to increase the licensing limit of 4GB for 32-bit client Windows. | May 24 04:32 |
| oiaohm | That is sad | May 24 04:32 |
| yuhong | http://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/license/memory.htm | May 24 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Linux support 64GB of ram on 32 bit system. | May 24 04:32 |
| yuhong | Yep, as well as some server versions of Windows. | May 24 04:33 |
| oiaohm | So supporting 4GB is basically nothing. | May 24 04:33 |
| oiaohm | 64 GB is the hardware limit. | May 24 04:33 |
| yuhong | What I was trying to push is to do the same for client versions of Windows. | May 24 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Without using a expanded. | May 24 04:33 |
| yuhong | Geoff Chappell was able to hack the licensing limit of 4GB for 32-bit Vista. | May 24 04:34 |
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| oiaohm | Main reason why MS is stuck at 4GB is there drivers are not PAE aware. | May 24 04:34 |
| the_mad_hatter | Evening. | May 24 04:34 |
| oiaohm | In the desktop market | May 24 04:34 |
| mib_iqvpen | hi | May 24 04:34 |
| the_mad_hatter | oiaohm - not true. Windows 2000 could handle over 4 gigs. | May 24 04:35 |
| the_mad_hatter | And I mean the desktop version. | May 24 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Yes and a lot of drivers break the_mad_hatter | May 24 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Lot of third party drivers are not PAE compadible. | May 24 04:35 |
| yuhong | Yep, MS was forced to enable PAE in a mode that limits physical address space to 4GB because it was needed for NX. | May 24 04:36 |
| oiaohm | LOL | May 24 04:36 |
| oiaohm | NX works on 64GB of memory. | May 24 04:36 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 04:36 |
| the_mad_hatter | In that case, the driver OEMS should have been shot. | May 24 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Agree the_mad_hatter | May 24 04:36 |
| oiaohm | MS is basically covering up for them. | May 24 04:37 |
| yuhong | Before that happened, the 4GB licensing limit was for total memory. | May 24 04:37 |
| yuhong | So yes if you enabled PAE on Win2000 you could recover the 512 MB lost to devices. | May 24 04:37 |
| the_mad_hatter | So why didn't they? Because they could claim that you needed to pay more to access higher amounts of memory. | May 24 04:38 |
| they did not because non free software is restricting that way. | May 24 04:38 | |
| they don't trust each other, so they have to "freeze" APIs | May 24 04:38 | |
| all fall to the lowest common denominator | May 24 04:39 | |
| yuhong | That was what the licensing limit was for and has been for since Windows 2000. | May 24 04:39 |
| the_mad_hatter | No, because of the cash. You won't go wrong when looking at Microsoft moves if you think of money. | May 24 04:39 |
| the_mad_hatter | Oh, good book you guys should read - After the Software Wars | May 24 04:39 |
| the_mad_hatter | http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/after-the-software-wars/4964815 | May 24 04:39 |
| yuhong | What changed was the interpretation of that licensing limit. | May 24 04:39 |
| the_mad_hatter | Written by an ex-microsoftie | May 24 04:40 |
| seen it | May 24 04:40 | |
| thanks | May 24 04:40 | |
| yuhong | Before MS was forced to enable PAE for NX, it was interpreted as total memory. | May 24 04:40 |
| yuhong | So yes if you enabled PAE on Win2000 you could recover the 512 MB lost to devices, but you still could not access more than 4 GB of total memory. | May 24 04:41 |
| information on the workings of M$ is interesting, but his free software interpretation is sound but derivative. | May 24 04:41 | |
| yuhong | Afterwards it was changed to total physical address space. | May 24 04:41 |
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| the_mad_hatter | Heh. That argument could go on all night. | May 24 04:42 |
| the_mad_hatter | BTW, what is the best distro for Power PC Macs? | May 24 04:42 |
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| yuhong | BTW, what allowed PAE to be auto-enabled on Windows was that on Windows, the bootloader automatically detected and chose the right kernel. | May 24 04:43 |
| oiaohm | http://widefox.pbworks.com/Memory Linux memory split on a 64 bit system is insane. | May 24 04:44 |
| yuhong | On Linux, this do not exist, so even today most Linux distros are installed with the non-PAE kernel that lacks NX support. | May 24 04:44 |
| oiaohm | That is wrong | May 24 04:45 |
| oiaohm | You don't need PAE to use NX. | May 24 04:45 |
| yuhong | Yes, you do, if you don | May 24 04:45 |
| oiaohm | Lot of non PAE Linux kernels still active NX. | May 24 04:45 |
| yuhong | Yes, you do, if you don't believe me read the AMD or Intel docs. | May 24 04:45 |
| yuhong | The reason was that there was not enough space in the non-PAE page tables. | May 24 04:46 |
| oiaohm | Look closer at the Linux kernel. | May 24 04:47 |
| oiaohm | Non PAE built kernel will still detect a PAE and use NX. | May 24 04:47 |
| oiaohm | PAE built kernel will map blocks using PAE. | May 24 04:47 |
| yuhong | Can you provide me a link. I'd be intrested. | May 24 04:48 |
| oiaohm | I would have to dig out the nx handling in the Linux kernel. | May 24 04:49 |
| yuhong | BTW, Fedora 11 installs the PAE kernel by default and I suspect one of the first to do so. | May 24 04:49 |
| oiaohm | That is not the first. | May 24 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | the OS can emulate the NX bit | May 24 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | Windows can and so can Linux | May 24 04:50 |
| DaemonFC | software DEP/Exec Shield | May 24 04:50 |
| yuhong | Yes, and in fact even Fedora 11 does it on processor lacking NX support. | May 24 04:50 |
| yuhong | BTW, the Windows emulation of the NX bit relates to exception handling. | May 24 04:50 |
| yuhong | It is basically checking the page attributes before jumping to the exception handler. | May 24 04:51 |
| yuhong | Actually, Mandriva tried it for a while but it later turned out that Pentium Ms lacking NX also lack PAE. | May 24 04:52 |
| yuhong | BTW, Solaris and Mac OS X not only auto-detects PAE, but also go one step further and auto-detect 64-bit support. | May 24 04:54 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, just the kernel though | May 24 04:55 |
| DaemonFC | Windows, Linux, and FreeBSD are true 64-bit | May 24 04:55 |
| yuhong | Yep, these OSs has a 32-bit userspace. | May 24 04:56 |
| yuhong | In fact, even most of the kernel of Mac OS X is 32-bit. | May 24 04:56 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, that's cause they support the Core Duo which is 32-bit | May 24 04:57 |
| DaemonFC | bad mistake to ever support that CPU | May 24 04:57 |
| yuhong | But these OSes do ship with some 64-bit userspace apps. | May 24 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Debian does some time cause you hell. | May 24 04:58 |
| yuhong | Why supporting the Core Duo is a mistake? | May 24 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Install 32 bit system it detect 64 bit cpu so installs 64 bit kernel. | May 24 04:58 |
| oiaohm | So nvidia drivers will not install. | May 24 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Everything else works. | May 24 04:59 |
| yuhong | I did not know this, can you provide me a link? | May 24 04:59 |
| DaemonFC | that's bullshit | May 24 04:59 |
| DaemonFC | if the user wants 32-bit | May 24 04:59 |
| DaemonFC | give them 32-bit | May 24 05:00 |
| oiaohm | amd64 bit build kernel works out faster on the hardware. | May 24 05:00 |
| the_mad_hatter | most uses don't know the difference | May 24 05:00 |
| DaemonFC | til Nvidia won't install | May 24 05:00 |
| DaemonFC | then they'll just say Fedora is shit | May 24 05:01 |
| DaemonFC | and go back to Windows | May 24 05:01 |
| oiaohm | Other than that they don't know the difference. | May 24 05:01 |
| the_mad_hatter | my wife is running 64 bit Ubuntu, doesn't know it | May 24 05:01 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, cause it's a real 64-bit system | May 24 05:01 |
| DaemonFC | not a freankenbuild | May 24 05:01 |
| oiaohm | Linux 64 bit kernel runs 32 bit applications perfectly. | May 24 05:01 |
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| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 05:02 |
| yuhong | Looks like you are mixing up Fedora with Debian. | May 24 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Drivers are where things go strange. | May 24 05:02 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 05:02 |
| yuhong | Even Solaris requires 64-bit drivers for the 64-bit kernel. | May 24 05:02 |
| DaemonFC | 30% of Windows users are on Vista | May 24 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia 64 bit drivers required a 64 bit envorment for there installer. | May 24 05:02 |
| DaemonFC | 1/3rd of them use x64 | May 24 05:02 |
| the_mad_hatter | not if you use kernel drivers. OEM drivers are something else | May 24 05:02 |
| DaemonFC | so drivers are not really a problem anymore | May 24 05:02 |
| oiaohm | So once you provide that you can install the Nvidia drivers. | May 24 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Basically just makes the process a little onger. | May 24 05:03 |
| oiaohm | longer. | May 24 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Or you go into debian and force it to install a normal 32 bit kernel. | May 24 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Ie dont selection the one labeled amd64 | May 24 05:04 |
| yuhong | Mac OS X's kernel is mostly 32-bit even on 64-bit CPUs. | May 24 05:04 |
| yuhong | On 64-bit CPUs it mostly runs in 32-bit compatiblity mode to support 64-bit userland apps. | May 24 05:04 |
| oiaohm | Linux 32 bit and 64 bit kernel source is merging. | May 24 05:04 |
| DaemonFC | how could you do that? | May 24 05:05 |
| yuhong | Most of userland though is still 32-bit. | May 24 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Other big change is dosemu stops working with a Linux 64 bit kernel. | May 24 05:05 |
| yuhong | But it can support 64-bit apps even with 32-bit drivers. | May 24 05:06 |
| yuhong | Yep, long mode has no V86 mode. | May 24 05:06 |
| oiaohm | You can still get to v86 | May 24 05:06 |
| oiaohm | Just the path to allow it is not approved for main line. | May 24 05:07 |
| oiaohm | http://v86-64.sourceforge.net/ The insane path to get it yuhong | May 24 05:08 |
| yuhong | How does it work? By leaving long mode? | May 24 05:09 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | May 24 05:09 |
| yuhong | AFRIK the 64-bit and 32-bit PAE page table formats are mostly compatible. | May 24 05:09 |
| yuhong | One difference is that some bits which are available to the OS in long mode must be zero in PAE mode. | May 24 05:16 |
| yuhong | In particular from 52 bits (which is BTW the architectural maximum physical address space limit) to just before the NX bit. | May 24 05:17 |
| yuhong | These can be used by the OS in long mode, but must be zero in PAE mode. | May 24 05:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep that is why its possiable there is a quite usable bridge. | May 24 05:19 |
| oiaohm | Lack of support for v86 on 64 bit systems is a choice not to go through the work of getting it. | May 24 05:21 |
| oiaohm | Fare enough really its not what you call the cheapest process. | May 24 05:21 |
| neonfloss | 128 bit systems ftw ;) | May 24 05:23 |
| yuhong | 16-bit protected mode still works, however, and can be used to call the VBE 3.0 protected mode interface in long mode. | May 24 05:23 |
| yuhong | BTW, on debian selecting the 64-bit kernel by default, can you provide a link? | May 24 05:25 |
| yuhong | I did not know that Debian did this. | May 24 05:25 |
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| oiaohm | It was the last time I used the installer since then I have swapped over to running fully 64 bit less trouble that way. | May 24 05:26 |
| oiaohm | You kinda remember when you get caught by something yuhong | May 24 05:30 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 05:30 |
| oiaohm | Hmm just noticed something MS small machine limits say nothing about the number of screens. | May 24 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.puredarwin.org/ | May 24 05:35 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.puredarwin.org/screenshots | May 24 05:36 |
| oiaohm | Yep another X11 OS. | May 24 05:37 |
| DaemonFC | I used OpenDarwin for a while | May 24 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | it was nice | May 24 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | for something you weren't supposed to be using unless you were a developer | May 24 05:38 |
| yuhong | Another news on slashdot is that video cameras are installed on urinals. | May 24 05:40 |
| yuhong | Yep, I know about OpenDarwin. | May 24 05:41 |
| yuhong | And on Apple and open source, I am sure there are a lot of politics going on inside Apple. | May 24 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | there's no reason not to make an open source OS | May 24 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | all the things that make it a Mac are layered on top of that | May 24 05:42 |
| yuhong | For example, PT_DENY_ATTACH (Mac OS X version of protected processes) can easily patched out. | May 24 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | then you have teh marketing on top of that | May 24 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | it's like a sandwich | May 24 05:43 |
| yuhong | Because xnu source is available. | May 24 05:43 |
| yuhong | Yep, Apple layers closed software on open source software. | May 24 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | which makes me wonder | May 24 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | doesn't Mac have all of this supposed DRM that Vista does? | May 24 05:43 |
| yuhong | Yep, Mac OS X do have DRM features. | May 24 05:44 |
| yuhong | PT_DENY_ATTACH is Mac OS X version of Vista's protected processes. | May 24 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | so why is everyone picking on Vista and not OS X/ | May 24 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | Why is there no BadMac campaign at FSF? | May 24 05:45 |
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| oiaohm | DRI2 also allows DRM like features. | May 24 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | you know I've always wondered that | May 24 05:45 |
| yuhong | But because xnu source is available, that is easily patched out. | May 24 05:45 |
| oiaohm | Since you can send commands straight to video card. | May 24 05:45 |
| oiaohm | From userspace. | May 24 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing about Linux that stops someone from implementing DRM | May 24 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | within their own application | May 24 05:46 |
| oiaohm | There was. | May 24 05:46 |
| yuhong | Which makes me wonder about the politics inside Apple related to open source. | May 24 05:46 |
| oiaohm | DRI1 you could not get access to the hardware to enfoce it DaemonFC | May 24 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | I meant more like video games | May 24 05:46 |
| oiaohm | I was meaning videos. | May 24 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | the only place I know of that's making any number of significant Linux games uses an Activation system | May 24 05:47 |
| oiaohm | Where you have the display decode it. | May 24 05:47 |
| yuhong | They did close the Mac OS X kernel for 32-bit Intel. | May 24 05:47 |
| yuhong | But when they ported it to 64-bit Intel, they made it open again. | May 24 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | they must not be too worried about it then | May 24 05:47 |
| oiaohm | Its not like being closed source prevents someone from reversing it. | May 24 05:48 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 05:48 |
| oiaohm | Closed source as made no different in protection system cracked. | May 24 05:49 |
| yuhong | There is a bad iPhone campaign at FSF, but that is because it is even more closed. | May 24 05:49 |
| oiaohm | Either the protection system is solid or its not. | May 24 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | I've never seen a DRM scheme that wasn't eventually cracked | May 24 05:49 |
| yuhong | Yep. | May 24 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | why the hell do they even bother? | May 24 05:49 |
| neonfloss | yea, even if you support proprietary software DRM is stupid | May 24 05:50 |
| DaemonFC | they inconvenience the people signing their paychecks more than the ones stealing it | May 24 05:50 |
| yuhong | Because they want to prevent copying of things that can be easily copied. | May 24 05:50 |
| yuhong | That idea themselves is fundamentally flawed. | May 24 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | DRM in music is stupid because there's going to be a market for CDs for a LONG time | May 24 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | and those are analog anyway | May 24 05:51 |
| oiaohm | DRM for what it was designed to do is right. Control documents moving inside a business where people don't have to have rights to control there machines. | May 24 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | they're trying to build a perimeter around something that's already been plundered | May 24 05:51 |
| oiaohm | Use by music and others its really becomes abusive. | May 24 05:51 |
| yuhong | Yep, that is called by MS as IRM. | May 24 05:51 |
| neonfloss | DaemonFC, im not sure how long. in not too long a time I predict solid stated cards intead of cds | May 24 05:51 |
| oiaohm | IRM is a pain in the ass as well. | May 24 05:52 |
| yuhong | Information Rights Management | May 24 05:52 |
| neonfloss | ^ thanks | May 24 05:52 |
| yuhong | Look at the copyright law we are getting as another proof that controlling copying of things that can be easily copied is fundementally flawed. | May 24 05:53 |
| neonfloss | copyright is good | May 24 05:54 |
| neonfloss | the current laws, no | May 24 05:54 |
| yuhong | Yep, it is another proof that controlling copying of things that can be easily copied is fundementally flawed. | May 24 05:55 |
| neonfloss | bibliotik.org looks cool :) | May 24 05:57 |
| neonfloss | book torrent site | May 24 05:57 |
| neonfloss | I prefer reading hard copies and buy lots of them, but digital ones are useful for searching text (school projects) | May 24 05:57 |
| neonfloss | woops, wrong chan | May 24 05:57 |
| yuhong | BTW, economics is why people want to control copying of things that can be easily copied. | May 24 05:59 |
| DaemonFC | artificial scarcity creates perception of value | May 24 06:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem with IRM is that all documents on disk end up encrypted. Old style DRM works on access control. So if you can copy the file out you truly do have it and backups are simple to crack back open. | May 24 06:00 |
| oiaohm | IRM makes damaged disks and the like more data loss causing. | May 24 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, Windows Media Player no longer allows you to back up your license files | May 24 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I heard anyway | May 24 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | I don't know what you're supposed to do | May 24 06:02 |
| oiaohm | What if file gets slightly damaged. | May 24 06:03 |
| oiaohm | And no long decodes with the licence file. | May 24 06:03 |
| oiaohm | This is not good for business. | May 24 06:03 |
| oiaohm | Its better to be able to recover something than nothing. | May 24 06:03 |
| DaemonFC | that's the problem of whoever is stupid enough to buy them :D | May 24 06:04 |
| oiaohm | Problem old style drm the files are encoded for transport. | May 24 06:04 |
| oiaohm | With secure systems in the network. | May 24 06:04 |
| oiaohm | But storage in business is not encrypted. | May 24 06:04 |
| oiaohm | For the most logical reason. You might need to do data recovery on it. | May 24 06:05 |
| yuhong | BTW, can you provide some links on the old style DRM you are describing. | May 24 06:08 |
| schestowitz | Reader Explains “Microsoft Innovation” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-innovation-primer/ > | May 24 06:10 |
| yuhong | Yep, MS used a trick similar to this with WLO. | May 24 06:13 |
| yuhong | From http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/os213/index.html | May 24 06:13 |
| yuhong | "I have read allegations that Microsoft's WLO is a blatant ripoff of Micrografx Mirrors, a similar product developed earlier by Micrografx. Supposedly Microsoft's application division was offered to evaluate Mirrors for potential use in Microsoft products, on the condition that Microsoft systems division doesn't learn the details. Looks like they did - not very surprising given Microsoft's... | May 24 06:13 |
| yuhong | ...track record. " | May 24 06:13 |
| yuhong | WLO unfortunately was created before the MS/IBM breakup that led MS to stop developing OS/2. | May 24 06:15 |
| *yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]") | May 24 06:16 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher Versus OLPC < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/computer-aid-international-versus-olpc/ > | May 24 06:24 |
| oiaohm | MAR windows requires a different disk | May 24 06:31 |
| oiaohm | And costs 0 dollar per machine to install | May 24 06:31 |
| *macabe is now known as macabe_ | May 24 06:32 | |
| DaemonFC | this movie isn't scary, it's actually kind of stupid/funny | May 24 06:32 |
| DaemonFC | (Mimic) | May 24 06:32 |
| oiaohm | There is a fine print you MAR windows. | May 24 06:33 |
| oiaohm | You are not allowed to use them for any form of business usage. | May 24 06:33 |
| The Right to Read Story is now true. http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/05/umich-gets-better-deal-in-googles-library-of-the-future-project/ publishers hold the past hostage and will use the revenues to restrict the future. | May 24 06:33 | |
| oiaohm | And if you need a reinstallation disk MS will charge you 54 dollars here. | May 24 06:33 |
| Google is a participant in this crime. | May 24 06:34 | |
| Copyright of this sort must be abolished. | May 24 06:34 | |
| DaemonFC | Gateway includes reinstall discs | May 24 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | those recovery "partitions" that HP uses slay me | May 24 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | that is just so retarded | May 24 06:35 |
| oiaohm | MAR does nto give you recovery partition or a reinstallation disk. | May 24 06:37 |
| oiaohm | Make recovery partitions seam sane. | May 24 06:37 |
| DaemonFC | emachines doesn't give you the discs | May 24 06:38 |
| DaemonFC | call their 800 number | May 24 06:38 |
| DaemonFC | tell them a virus ate your Windows :P | May 24 06:38 |
| DaemonFC | they'll send some out for free | May 24 06:38 |
| oiaohm | Nice of them. | May 24 06:38 |
| schestowitz | Saving SELinux from Mono Before It’s Too Late? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/seadmin-mono-problem/ > | May 24 06:41 |
| oiaohm | That breaks the first rule of a secuirty tool. | May 24 06:45 |
| Roy, how many computers does that "free" computer MAR ship a year. | May 24 06:53 | |
| ? | May 24 06:53 | |
| annual report says 140,000 | May 24 06:54 | |
| per year | May 24 06:54 | |
| DaemonFC | Mono is spreading across every type of software | May 24 06:55 |
| DaemonFC | their goal is to get every kind of user to need it | May 24 06:55 |
| schestowitz, how did you compute the 19,000 number per shipping container? | May 24 06:59 | |
| schestowitz | Not me | May 24 07:00 |
| schestowitz | The one who wrote much of this | May 24 07:01 |
| schestowitz | UK is the worst in terms of h/w reuse | May 24 07:01 |
| schestowitz | There was an article in the MSBBC about it last week | May 24 07:01 |
| how many computers do they put in a container? | May 24 07:01 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Goes Political < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-goes-political/ > | May 24 07:01 |
| I have to laugh at their pirate this hint, hint language, " As standard our machines do not come with operating systems or with any applications software. You may wish to obtain and install this yourself locally because it may be cheaper for you to obtain it than for us to buy it here." I'll bet. | May 24 07:02 | |
| I'm trying to figure out their real costs per year. | May 24 07:02 | |
| Shipping containers should not cost more than $5,000 and probably cost much less. | May 24 07:03 | |
| The difference goes to M$ and staff of one sort or another. | May 24 07:03 | |
| 140,000 x (42 + 72) is a whopping 16,000,000 lb or 32 million bucks! | May 24 07:05 | |
| that will buy a lot of shipping, warehouse and staff. | May 24 07:05 | |
| This charity stinks! | May 24 07:05 | |
| The more I think about it, the less I like it. They have basically relabeled dumping and paid themselves very well for it. | May 24 07:12 | |
| schestowitz, I see a lot of BS about M$'s debt move. | May 24 07:25 | |
| at the end of 2008 they said they would go $20 billion in debt to buy $40 billion of their shares. | May 24 07:26 | |
| Over the last couple of weeks there were a number of articles that acted like this is what they were doing. | May 24 07:27 | |
| I thought they had already done their buy backs. | May 24 07:27 | |
| and this earlier article acts as if no one was sure http://www.forbes.com/2009/05/11/microsoft-qwest-shares-financial-personal-finance-guru-insight-national-semiconductor.html | May 24 07:28 | |
| -> " We know not why a company the size and shape of Microsoft needs to raise money through debt issuance--it already has over $30 billion in cash at hand on its books--but if this is a cost-of-capital initiative that leads to the company buying back some of its own float, shareholders may be in for a treat." | May 24 07:29 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Patents Are Not About Collaboration, They Are About Racketeering < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/ms-racketeering-not-collaboratio/ > | May 24 07:29 |
| The $30 billion of cash on had conflicts with other reports of $20 and it's more likely they have none. | May 24 07:29 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: yes, the debt.. | May 24 07:29 |
| schestowitz | I have an article about it coming | May 24 07:29 |
| schestowitz | I'll make it my next one | May 24 07:29 |
| cool, there's so much BS out there. | May 24 07:30 | |
| they really cranked up the press on that one. | May 24 07:30 | |
| schestowitz | I'll quote the above from you | May 24 07:30 |
| cool | May 24 07:31 | |
| My thought from earlier is that it's absurd they would buy stocks while firing people and end up in debt over it. You may have seen those thoughts before all the Windows and OS/2 chatter. | May 24 07:33 | |
| oiaohm | There is a reason why you buy stocks. | May 24 07:34 |
| oiaohm | They are buying stocks because they are not expecting income. | May 24 07:34 |
| oiaohm | Sun did the same thing. | May 24 07:34 |
| oiaohm | By reducing numbers of stocks in circulation you get to keep the return per share up avoiding a share price colaspse. | May 24 07:35 |
| So you hope. | May 24 07:35 | |
| oiaohm | That is the theory. | May 24 07:36 |
| oiaohm | Now if loss of income is larger than expected. | May 24 07:36 |
| oiaohm | It can end up a company killing move. | May 24 07:36 |
| So they hope. I'm not sure how they expect to ever have income as they fire the people needed to dig them out of the Vista crater. | May 24 07:36 | |
| oiaohm | Its not my hope. | May 24 07:37 |
| Looks like looting to me. Especially with Bill Gates selling out at less than $20/share. | May 24 07:38 | |
| oiaohm | Very much is. | May 24 07:38 |
| They don't expect a recovery, so they dump company money into shares they own. | May 24 07:38 | |
| Investors left holding the bag on a company filled with disgruntled and overworked employees that somehow managed not to be fired. | May 24 07:39 | |
| oiaohm | You would not be firing staff and buying shares if you saw a rosey future. | May 24 07:39 |
| oiaohm | MS is not expecting to recover back to where they were. | May 24 07:40 |
| oiaohm | It what you call trying to patch the leaks. | May 24 07:41 |
| No product, no earnings, fire employees, goto step one; Death Spiral. | May 24 07:41 | |
| oiaohm | You missed a step. | May 24 07:41 |
| Yeah, loot. | May 24 07:41 | |
| but that's been going on all along. | May 24 07:41 | |
| oiaohm | No Product, no earning, fire employees, buy shares to keep share holders happy with returns, goto step one; | May 24 07:42 |
| World's richest man. World's biggest yacht. | May 24 07:42 | |
| oiaohm | You can only do that loop so many times. | May 24 07:42 |
| oiaohm | Before you die. | May 24 07:42 |
| it goes faster each time | May 24 07:42 | |
| oiaohm | MS started in death spiral back in 2004 | May 24 07:43 |
| 98 | May 24 07:43 | |
| oiaohm | People did not notice it. | May 24 07:43 |
| oiaohm | Failure to deliver Vista on time. | May 24 07:43 |
| I noticed when they rolled XP out. | May 24 07:43 | |
| oiaohm | XP roll out still went well. | May 24 07:43 |
| oiaohm | and was on time. | May 24 07:44 |
| not at first | May 24 07:44 | |
| oiaohm | Well for a MS software roll out. | May 24 07:44 |
| sales were poor, except for channel stuffing | May 24 07:44 | |
| oiaohm | It got them back on a stable foot after ME. | May 24 07:44 |
| schestowitz | twitter: MS is done with buybacks | May 24 07:44 |
| remember that little thing that happened on 9/11 | May 24 07:44 | |
| schestowitz | They announced it 1 month ago | May 24 07:44 |
| oiaohm | MS really could not aford to kick toe with Vista. | May 24 07:44 |
| schestowitz | At that stage, accroding to their plans, they would be 5 billion in debt | May 24 07:45 |
| schestowitz | Unless they cut these buybacks short. | May 24 07:45 |
| If M$ is done with buybacks, why are there so many BS articles about it? | May 24 07:45 | |
| As I recall, the original buyback plans called for them to end $20 in debt. | May 24 07:45 | |
| let me pull the link | May 24 07:46 | |
| oiaohm | remember at XP sp1 and sp2 MS was money wise sorted. | May 24 07:46 |
| oiaohm | Has had ups and downs each getting more savage. | May 24 07:47 |
| http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/06/buyback-debt-option/ | May 24 07:47 | |
| ah, the debt was from a yahoo purchase | May 24 07:48 | |
| oiaohm | That did not go forwards | May 24 07:48 |
| back in August Blooberg said they only had $26 billion left. | May 24 07:49 | |
| oiaohm | Now that would be wrong of Orcale aquired yahoo. | May 24 07:49 |
| oiaohm | of/if | May 24 07:49 |
| I really do not believe they now have more money | May 24 07:49 | |
| debt was projected in the event of a yahoo deal or not | May 24 07:50 | |
| only one thing is clear, M$ is lying their ass off about money and plans. | May 24 07:50 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: yes | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | But,... | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Re: Yahoo | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | They later bought back 25bn | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Said they would take debt | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | 5 billion | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, let's leave that aside | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Let me do the post . | May 24 07:51 |
| schestowitz | Then we discuss this in the comments | May 24 07:51 |
| OK | May 24 07:51 | |
| schestowitz | Better than to waste it in public IRC. It is less visible, but used nonetheless | May 24 07:52 |
| schestowitz | I also will put links to MSFT debt posts | May 24 07:52 |
| schestowitz | This must scare Microsoft that all this stuff is made visible | May 24 07:52 |
| If they are really done with buybacks, all these articles are pure pump and dump | May 24 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | Contradictions | May 24 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Just pump | May 24 07:52 |
| schestowitz | Dump is another thing :-) | May 24 07:52 |
| :) | May 24 07:52 | |
| schestowitz | I was told off by the Micro~1 shills that it would be libel to say dump | May 24 07:53 |
| schestowitz | They threatened me | May 24 07:53 |
| RMS says the UK has bad libel laws. | May 24 07:59 | |
| You don't have to say dump then. Just note that Bill Gates sold off at less than $20/share. | May 24 08:01 | |
| it is strange how libelous your stalkers can be while threatening you with libel for reporting an obvious conclusion. | May 24 08:02 | |
| *liberfiasco (n=libervis@93-139-69-82.adsl.net.t-com.hr) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 08:03 | |
| oiaohm | They still have about 25 billion in reserve twitter. | May 24 08:03 |
| oiaohm | From there reports. | May 24 08:04 |
| and Vista is the most secure OS ever | May 24 08:04 | |
| hmmm | May 24 08:04 | |
| Contradictions from so many sources can only come from well planned lies. | May 24 08:05 | |
| They can not be trusted. | May 24 08:06 | |
| Even their fanboys are having a hard time putting positive spin on so much bad news and so many contradictions. | May 24 08:07 | |
| lol at the IP Asshole competition. | May 24 08:09 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Sued Over Its Corruption in Switzerland, Microsoft Debt Revisited < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/msft-corruption-in-switzerland/ > | May 24 08:09 |
| schestowitz | twitter will love it | May 24 08:09 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: whose reports? | May 24 08:10 |
| I thank I will, thanks | May 24 08:10 | |
| schestowitz | They can massage figures | May 24 08:10 |
| schestowitz | For instance: | May 24 08:10 |
| schestowitz | In accounting, I could claim to have a huge house | May 24 08:10 |
| schestowitz | But I don't have to tell you I took 3 mortgages on it | May 24 08:10 |
| schestowitz | Then i'll also buy a Ferarri and make you envious | May 24 08:10 |
| schestowitz | You might never see the repossession | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft uses perceived might to give the illusion that it'll always be there | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | "Nobody ever gets fired for buying <brand>" | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | Mind you, I had journalists contact me about this | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | They also suspect the same thing about MS | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | But they can't publish about it | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | Libel and all | May 24 08:11 |
| schestowitz | Even if they turn out to be right, at the time of writing they can be sacked | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | People said Madoff was a fraudster for ages | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | They reported him | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | But nobody paid attention | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | Those who said so were even vilified, AFAIK | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | So rare truth-tellers are treated like criminals | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | As oposed to those whom they snitch on | May 24 08:12 |
| schestowitz | *opposed | May 24 08:13 |
| *libervisco has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | May 24 08:14 | |
| oiaohm | Stock reports schestowitz | May 24 08:14 |
| oiaohm | Of cource how truthful who knows. | May 24 08:15 |
| schestowitz | When I come to think of it: | May 24 08:15 |
| schestowitz | MS never said it cut buybacks short | May 24 08:15 |
| schestowitz | It said they are complete | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | IOW, it made the buybacks | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | fast | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | Had it not, maybe MSFT wouldbe at $13 right now | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | Who knows... | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: followed the Madoff case? | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | it's amazing how one drops from hero to zero | May 24 08:16 |
| schestowitz | Fame to shame | May 24 08:16 |
| Well, that's about the size of it. Thanks for reporting it. | May 24 08:17 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft too could be among the Enrons and I am not a sole claimer of this | May 24 08:17 |
| oiaohm | I have not been following madoff. | May 24 08:17 |
| schestowitz | Others blew the whistle too | May 24 08:17 |
| schestowitz | Putting their jobs at stake for this too | May 24 08:17 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: people knew he lied | May 24 08:17 |
| oiaohm | Enron appeared to have a lot of money in bank until people went looking for it. | May 24 08:17 |
| schestowitz | He could maybe even tell you | May 24 08:17 |
| schestowitz | But that would not help you | May 24 08:17 |
| The last I heard of the madoff case, the Feds were going after the victims as if they too participated in the fraud | May 24 08:17 | |
| schestowitz | Like reporting the police to the police | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | They would be like, "who THE HECK are you?" | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | "You're just jealous" | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | And choose credential of big business over a person who knows better | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | We'll find out one day | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | twitter: maybe they did | May 24 08:18 |
| schestowitz | Fraud is a conspiracy in many cases | May 24 08:18 |
| It is impossible for only Maddoff to have known. | May 24 08:19 | |
| The arrest was too tidy. | May 24 08:19 | |
| It would be horrible but not surprising to learn that some of the worthy charities defrauded were themselves run by frauds. | May 24 08:20 | |
| *Goblin (n=tim2@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 08:21 | |
| Goblin | morning all. | May 24 08:21 |
| Good morning, I was just going to bed. It is late here. | May 24 08:22 | |
| Goblin | ah...nite! | May 24 08:24 |
| *DaemonFC has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [SeaMonkey 2.0b1pre/20090522003217]") | May 24 08:28 | |
| schestowitz | Hey | May 24 08:28 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft’s Sabotage of ODF Still in the News < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-sabotage-of-odf/ > | May 24 08:33 |
| schestowitz | Goblin: how was dinner? | May 24 08:33 |
| schestowitz | BTW, for some matters we have another channel, #boycottnovell-social | May 24 08:34 |
| Goblin | sorry Im on baby watch! | May 24 08:41 |
| Goblin | yeah it was great... | May 24 08:41 |
| Goblin | got back around 9pm | May 24 08:41 |
| schestowitz | Sunny today... I'll be out later | May 24 08:52 |
| schestowitz | I have about 5 more MSFT posts | May 24 08:53 |
| Goblin | me too, Ill be off to the farmers market shortly | May 24 08:53 |
| schestowitz | They carry on cumbling, just like the site (MSWatch) | May 24 08:53 |
| schestowitz | *crumb | May 24 08:53 |
| oiaohm | http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=18604 Sneakernet its back. | May 24 09:07 |
| schestowitz | Eye on Microsoft: Even the FBI Can’t Secure Windows < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/fbi-cannot-secure-windows/ > | May 24 09:07 |
| schestowitz | Ballmer and Co Meet Officials in Kyrgyzstan, Latvia; Microsoft Ukraine Curses FOSS < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-kyrgyzstan-latvia-ukraine/ > | May 24 09:38 |
| oiaohm | Loss of control. | May 24 10:12 |
| oiaohm | Good thing about all these lost markets it normally turns into more developers. | May 24 10:14 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Blackmails China and Then Fires 300 Chinese Employees < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-blackmail-china-layoffs/ > | May 24 10:14 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: I will post your Red Hat vid | May 24 10:14 |
| schestowitz | Oggifying right now | May 24 10:15 |
| schestowitz | Goblin: can you add apostrophes to your posts? | May 24 10:27 |
| schestowitz | You anc Chips omit them | May 24 10:27 |
| schestowitz | It makes them seem less reputable when I link to them and quote them | May 24 10:27 |
| Goblin | lol | May 24 10:30 |
| Goblin | one answer...yes...sometimes... | May 24 10:31 |
| Goblin | it depends what Im using to post the article | May 24 10:31 |
| schestowitz | .I was just going through some posts | May 24 10:31 |
| schestowitz | Sometimes I add the missing apostrophes | May 24 10:31 |
| Goblin | a combination of predictive text and WM that Im determined to suffer with until contract runs out | May 24 10:31 |
| Goblin | point taken though | May 24 10:32 |
| schestowitz | Myth Busting: GNU/Linux Takes So Long to Install and Set Up < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/myth-busting-linux-setup/ > | May 24 10:34 |
| Goblin | at it runs on | May 24 10:41 |
| Goblin | cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on | May 24 10:41 |
| Goblin | cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on | May 24 10:41 |
| Goblin | cheap hardware, but I have yet to see why it would be at it runs on | May 24 10:41 |
| Goblin | sorry about that | May 24 10:43 |
| Goblin | pasted on wrong channel... | May 24 10:43 |
| Goblin | I have yet to see why it would be | May 24 10:44 |
| Goblin | I have yet to see why it would be | May 24 10:44 |
| Goblin | Im quiting...somethings up with this client | May 24 10:45 |
| *Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | May 24 10:45 | |
| tessier | schestowitz: My wife installed F10 on her Lenovo laptop all by herself. I didn't even know she was doing it. | May 24 10:46 |
| tessier | She got everything except flash-plugin working. | May 24 10:46 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | May 24 10:46 |
| schestowitz | Did you see the RHEL video? | May 24 10:46 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/myth-busting-linux-setup/ | May 24 10:46 |
| tessier | I have definitely exposed her to Linux quite a bit over the last couple of years but she has never installed it before. | May 24 10:47 |
| schestowitz | Mandriva comes with Flash and binary display drivers | May 24 10:47 |
| schestowitz | tessier: I remember trying to install Red Hat in 2002 or 2003 | May 24 10:47 |
| schestowitz | Red Hat floppies were needed and it was not simple | May 24 10:47 |
| tessier | I have never installed RH from floppies. | May 24 10:48 |
| schestowitz | That was the wrong way | May 24 10:48 |
| tessier | Slackware was the only Linux distro I ever installed from floppies. | May 24 10:48 |
| tessier | Everything else has been CD | May 24 10:48 |
| schestowitz | I didn't have the CDs | May 24 10:48 |
| schestowitz | tessier: floppies to kickstart the ISOs | May 24 10:48 |
| oiaohm | I have instaled RH from floppies. | May 24 10:48 |
| schestowitz | Cause I couldn't burn the CDs | May 24 10:48 |
| oiaohm | Not something I recommend. | May 24 10:48 |
| *tessier wonders what they would say if I went into #redhat and asked where I could get the floppy imgaes | May 24 10:49 | |
| tessier | images | May 24 10:49 |
| oiaohm | You will be told to make them yourself. | May 24 10:49 |
| tessier | My 486 doesn't have a CD ROM drive! | May 24 10:49 |
| _boo_ | but it's capable of one | May 24 10:49 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-103-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 10:50 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | May 24 10:51 |
| _Hicham_ | the room is still sleepy | May 24 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Does it have a network card. tessier 4 flopplys 2 you normallly need to make ie. 1 start the network install 1 addon drivers. Yes now pray the floppy drive works right and you have a fast server to provide everything. | May 24 10:53 |
| oiaohm | Ie you don't want to dare try that over dialup tessier. | May 24 10:53 |
| schestowitz | What Rockefeller and Gates Have in Common < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/antitrust-rockefeller-and-gates/ > | May 24 10:54 |
| schestowitz | I don't think I even have floppies left | May 24 10:55 |
| schestowitz | No drives for it anyway... | May 24 10:55 |
| *schestowitz remembers he has a Win98 rescue floppy somewhere in the drawers | May 24 10:55 | |
| oiaohm | I have a box of 5 1/2 floppys around here somewhere. | May 24 10:56 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: I've just done a post about your mate, BillyG | May 24 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Opps 5 1/4 | May 24 10:56 |
| oiaohm | Just saw the box. | May 24 10:56 |
| schestowitz | Yeah. | May 24 10:57 |
| _Hicham_ | I love BillyG | May 24 10:57 |
| _Hicham_ | he is a great guy | May 24 10:58 |
| schestowitz | There were large ones, no? Predating me.. | May 24 10:58 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what are u talking about? | May 24 10:58 |
| oiaohm | They are not large 8 inch ones are large schestowitz | May 24 10:59 |
| schestowitz | Did you hear about half a tera on one optical CD? | May 24 11:00 |
| schestowitz | They'll expand that further | May 24 11:00 |
| schestowitz | Think of the possibilities. | May 24 11:00 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk | May 24 11:00 |
| schestowitz | From binary cards to the whole Internet on a few CDs | May 24 11:00 |
| _Hicham_ | why floppies? | May 24 11:00 |
| schestowitz | Wikipedia in a matchbox | May 24 11:00 |
| _Hicham_ | use CD-Roms | May 24 11:01 |
| oiaohm | You can fit 240 meg on LS-240 3 1/2 inch floppy | May 24 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Never got popular. | May 24 11:01 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm is floppy disk lover | May 24 11:02 |
| *tessier is glad he did not have enough money to invest in a zip drive back in the day | May 24 11:03 | |
| oiaohm | LS-240 drives were prised for data recovery on normal floppies. | May 24 11:03 |
| tessier | 100M sure seemed like a lot of data though... | May 24 11:03 |
| oiaohm | These days it sits on shelf doing nothing. | May 24 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Zip 750s were impressive. | May 24 11:05 |
| oiaohm | In there time. | May 24 11:05 |
| _Hicham_ | I can't browse BN with Firefox3.5beta5 | May 24 11:06 |
| _Hicham_ | I am using Chromium to browse it | May 24 11:07 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaz_drive For data loses in that time nothing beats this. | May 24 11:07 |
| _Hicham_ | Chromium seems very promising | May 24 11:07 |
| _Hicham_ | did u use Chromium oiaohm? | May 24 11:07 |
| oiaohm | Have not bothered. | May 24 11:09 |
| oiaohm | Firefox does what I need. | May 24 11:09 |
| _Hicham_ | what Firefox version are u using? | May 24 11:11 |
| oiaohm | 3.0.10 | May 24 11:12 |
| oiaohm | I am not a person to be running expermintal on my web browser. | May 24 11:12 |
| oiaohm | I kinda need to to work at times. | May 24 11:12 |
| _Hicham_ | so u don't like to experiment new techs? | May 24 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Some things I do. | May 24 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Somethings I don't. | May 24 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Like expermental versions of blender I do play with. | May 24 11:15 |
| oiaohm | ulteo on 64bit what is another expermental. | May 24 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Basically I am selective where I will experiment. | May 24 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Where I was younger I was a little more care free about it. | May 24 11:18 |
| _Hicham_ | but u like experimenting new kernels, right? | May 24 11:20 |
| oiaohm | To a point. | May 24 11:24 |
| oiaohm | I normally don't touch non releases. | May 24 11:25 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: can you try to install NoScript or disable JS in Preferences? | May 24 11:25 |
| oiaohm | Thing I have found on adverage a kernel build from kernel.org is normally more stable than any distribution kernel. | May 24 11:25 |
| schestowitz | This way we can eliminate possible causes for slowdown in BN and prepare it for FF3.5 | May 24 11:25 |
| schestowitz | I am transcoding ATM | May 24 11:25 |
| schestowitz | Carlin skit | May 24 11:26 |
| oiaohm | That is why its to a point _Hicham_ On the kernel I am going after stablity and speed. | May 24 11:26 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly what you can experimenting. | May 24 11:26 |
| oiaohm | When young I would be running proto patches and the like. | May 24 11:26 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft Lobbies Obama and Partly Takes Over Gazillion < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-lobbies-obama-gazillion/ > | May 24 11:43 |
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| oiaohm | schestowitz: I guess you have already picked this up. http://www.osnews.com/story/21532/US_Congress_Mulls_Law_to_Circumvent_DMCA_for_Cars | May 24 12:09 |
| _boo_ | i still don't get it... which one is better for now: theora or x264 | May 24 12:11 |
| _boo_ | in speed it's most likely x264 | May 24 12:12 |
| _boo_ | but what about quality | May 24 12:12 |
| _boo_ | there are psnr benchmarks, but it's not sufficient to say anything | May 24 12:12 |
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| oiaohm | _boo_: in time speed will not be a issue. | May 24 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Off loading to video card. | May 24 12:16 |
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| _boo_ | http://web.mit.edu/xiphmont/Public/theora/demo7.html | May 24 12:18 |
| schestowitz | If Microsoft Removes 3-Applications Restriction, It Shows Great Fear of GNU/Linux http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/ms-removes-3-app-restriction/ | May 24 12:24 |
| oiaohm | More great fear of hardware markers | May 24 12:25 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, even Intel goes the other way | May 24 12:30 |
| schestowitz | It must have played with Vista 7, then gambled on Moblin | May 24 12:31 |
| Aondo | probably not the easiest thing to do when you are walking on broken glass | May 24 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Intel has gone the other way for a fair while now. | May 24 12:37 |
| schestowitz | Yes | May 24 12:38 |
| schestowitz | g2g, back at 3 | May 24 12:38 |
| oiaohm | MS empire was built on the support of Intel. | May 24 12:39 |
| MinceR | j0 | May 24 12:41 |
| _Hicham_ | hardware makers are killing MS softly | May 24 12:42 |
| _Hicham_ | Chromium renders pages like a charm | May 24 12:48 |
| oiaohm | It will not stay soft forever | May 24 13:01 |
| oiaohm | Once they start beating up the server market I expect to see MS out with Axes. | May 24 13:01 |
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| _Hicham_ | ogg files are working in Epiphany | May 24 14:12 |
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| _boo_ | like it make any sense if some media format works in a browser... | May 24 14:33 |
| _boo_ | like video and/or audio | May 24 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Saves having to intergrate flash to play them _boo_ | May 24 14:34 |
| _boo_ | omg... | May 24 14:34 |
| _boo_ | i don't play audio and video in browser | May 24 14:35 |
| _boo_ | i just dl them | May 24 14:35 |
| _Hicham_ | hahahaha | May 24 14:35 |
| _Hicham_ | really great | May 24 14:35 |
| _boo_ | 'cause i know what i'm going to dl | May 24 14:35 |
| _Hicham_ | what a web browsing experience | May 24 14:35 |
| _boo_ | yup | May 24 14:35 |
| _boo_ | i saw good players at sites with flash | May 24 14:36 |
| _boo_ | barely you have much better experience in browsing than me actually | May 24 14:36 |
| _boo_ | i just use inet for what i want, not for what i'm better with offline | May 24 14:36 |
| _boo_ | like there are no sites to start and stop playing big list of songs | May 24 14:37 |
| _boo_ | and choose one that you want or band or smth | May 24 14:37 |
| _boo_ | and no video sites to watch smth at random and dl only waht you want | May 24 14:38 |
| _boo_ | so browser +every codec support is kinda waste of time for developers of browser | May 24 14:38 |
| _Hicham_ | strange reasoning | May 24 14:39 |
| _boo_ | don't see anything bad in it | May 24 14:40 |
| _boo_ | i don't want to be browser dependent at final | May 24 14:40 |
| _boo_ | moving everything to browser will end us in clouds | May 24 14:41 |
| _boo_ | you may be like that | May 24 14:41 |
| _boo_ | but that's not what i chose | May 24 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Really moving to video tags makes most formats simpler to download. | May 24 14:42 |
| _boo_ | simpler to dl... wtf? | May 24 14:42 |
| oiaohm | No working out what flash or silverlight is doing. | May 24 14:42 |
| oiaohm | To get the video. | May 24 14:42 |
| _boo_ | i'm not even touching silverlight | May 24 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Sites want to provide videos. | May 24 14:43 |
| oiaohm | As long as they don't start fully 3ding the interface of the web page i will be happy. | May 24 14:44 |
| _boo_ | runescape :) | May 24 14:44 |
| oiaohm | runescape uses java from memory. | May 24 14:45 |
| _boo_ | it works alright | May 24 14:45 |
| oiaohm | alterations allows it to be done in javascript. | May 24 14:45 |
| oiaohm | That could get really nasty. | May 24 14:46 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 14:46 |
| _boo_ | js 3d engine | May 24 14:46 |
| _boo_ | the first one to do php 3d engine should visit yellow house | May 24 14:46 |
| _boo_ | languages are done for what they are done | May 24 14:47 |
| oiaohm | Some js 3d engines do exist. | May 24 14:48 |
| _boo_ | yeah, but they suck | May 24 14:48 |
| _boo_ | strange, right? | May 24 14:48 |
| _boo_ | you won't use matlab to make 3d engine | May 24 14:49 |
| _boo_ | or mathcad | May 24 14:49 |
| oiaohm | http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7379 <<who is sending him. | May 24 14:49 |
| _boo_ | don't make me laugh | May 24 14:50 |
| _boo_ | it's basics | May 24 14:50 |
| _boo_ | almost everything is capable of it | May 24 14:50 |
| _boo_ | it's not even a 3d engine | May 24 14:51 |
| _boo_ | just a joke | May 24 14:51 |
| _boo_ | you may be don't get what 3d engine is | May 24 14:51 |
| oiaohm | http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10203458-2.html << Javascript 1 _boo_ The work leading up to allowing it. | May 24 14:52 |
| _boo_ | yeah, if you say to gpu "draw scene", mkay | May 24 14:53 |
| _boo_ | almost every language is capable of it | May 24 14:53 |
| _boo_ | but it's not engine, just an abuse | May 24 14:54 |
| _boo_ | taking into account that everybody has accelerators, mkay... it will pass | May 24 14:55 |
| _boo_ | and backend for every system | May 24 14:55 |
| _boo_ | platform :) | May 24 14:55 |
| _boo_ | is to be implemented | May 24 14:56 |
| _boo_ | so they just lay it on developers for mobile platforms and stuff | May 24 14:56 |
| oiaohm | And fingers cross web developers don't go nuts with it. | May 24 14:57 |
| _boo_ | for sure | May 24 14:57 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Firefox 3+ does not play nice with transparency that's dynamic. | May 24 15:00 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/wolf/ And its not like some of the JS people have not been expermenting. | May 24 15:00 |
| schestowitz | Can you do me a favour and try this under FF3.5? http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/ Try scrolling. It's agonising in FF3 | May 24 15:00 |
| schestowitz | FF2 handled it quite all right IIRC. Even FF1 and 1.5 | May 24 15:01 |
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| tacone | ubuntu on dell's hottest laptop http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/24/dell-now-offering-studio-xps-13-with-ubuntu/ | May 24 15:20 |
| MinceR | literally the hottest? :> | May 24 15:23 |
| oiaohm | It a leg burner. | May 24 15:27 |
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| schestowitz | Belgian waffler | May 24 15:35 |
| schestowitz | George Carlin On His Standup Persona - Archive Interview < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn6roeUfMio&NR=1 >. Interesting, but nothing exciting. | May 24 15:36 |
| schestowitz | In Mandriva, awstats.pl grabs the whole of Apache with it | May 24 15:37 |
| schestowitz | Also, Awstats needs extanded logs | May 24 15:37 |
| schestowitz | *extended | May 24 15:37 |
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| schestowitz | Hehe. http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/a-mistake-sorry/ | May 24 16:02 |
| schestowitz | I wondered where his stuff vanished | May 24 16:02 |
| trmanco | haha -> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/politics/2009247709_apusfedscomputervirus.html | May 24 16:03 |
| schestowitz | http://www.stefanoforenza.com/always-right-collectors-edition/ "It has been downloaded a massive 15000 times in the first 6-7 days from my site alone." | May 24 16:05 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 40k in total? More over the long run + summaries without PDFs. Not good for the Vole. | May 24 16:05 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: I wrote about it this morning (and COLA yesterday) | May 24 16:06 |
| trmanco | I some how did catch it on cola | May 24 16:06 |
| trmanco | didn't* | May 24 16:06 |
| schestowitz | tacone: so strange.... | May 24 16:07 |
| schestowitz | No Mono crusaders in your comments. Everyone agrees, so you laid out the case well | May 24 16:07 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: gnote is a huge thread | May 24 16:08 |
| schestowitz | 0.3.1 iirc | May 24 16:08 |
| trmanco | yeah | May 24 16:08 |
| trmanco | good thing I posted it :-P | May 24 16:08 |
| trmanco | even though it was just some bugfix release :-P | May 24 16:08 |
| schestowitz | If there is anything happening outside his blog, then we ought to know. Gnote has people /talking/ about the problems with Mono | May 24 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Control, patents, performance issues | May 24 16:10 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.itwire.com/ got very boring | May 24 16:10 |
| schestowitz | Someone called Peter Dinham writes a lot of stuff there. Rarely of much interest | May 24 16:11 |
| schestowitz | http://lwn.net/Articles/332819/ "LWN recently posted a brief article on the GNOME Foundation's plea for support to help it get through a difficult year. " | May 24 16:12 |
| schestowitz | KDE had a hard year too. Same with the Vole. | May 24 16:12 |
| schestowitz | Apple's down too | May 24 16:12 |
| schestowitz | zer0c00l: did you read: http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/05/acer-debacle-closing-chapter.html | May 24 16:17 |
| schestowitz | Ken tells the story of Acer lock-in | May 24 16:17 |
| zer0c00l | schestowitz, yes | May 24 16:18 |
| zer0c00l | TPM stuff | May 24 16:18 |
| zer0c00l | :) | May 24 16:18 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, sort of | May 24 16:18 |
| schestowitz | Gates loved the idea | May 24 16:19 |
| schestowitz | Called it "security as a lockin" | May 24 16:19 |
| schestowitz | That man pretends to help kids... all he does is prevent them from getting a computer | May 24 16:19 |
| zer0c00l | yeah i saw that video by againstcpa.org | May 24 16:19 |
| zer0c00l | that website is down now? | May 24 16:20 |
| zer0c00l | schestowitz, billg? | May 24 16:20 |
| zer0c00l | schestowitz, he killed OLPC? | May 24 16:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is in trouble: Can Microsoft's core business adapt to the new economy? < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Can_Microsofts_business_adapt_to_the_new_economy_45846007.html > | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | Vista had MS customer lose faith in them. They assess other software. | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | zer0c00l: that too | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | zer0c00l: they schemed to ruin OLPC | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | zer0c00l: Gates himself reidiculed OLPC | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | In 2006 IIRC | May 24 16:21 |
| schestowitz | zer0c00l: but I was referring to Gates liking TPM and such stuff because it's lockin that screws Ken and the kids he helps right now | May 24 16:22 |
| zer0c00l | yaaa | May 24 16:22 |
| schestowitz | Is Nesson crazy? Statuory damages need not relate to actual damages. < http://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/?p=2334 > | May 24 16:23 |
| schestowitz | Apple sued for app on its store: Cartier to Withdraw Suit Against Apple Over iPhone Applications < http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124303659766448885.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#articleTabs=article > | May 24 16:27 |
| schestowitz | Someone sued Apple because the iPhone can be used to read the Kama Sutra :-) | May 24 16:34 |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kama_sutra | May 24 16:35 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* pr0n on Wikipedia. BLOCK IT!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kamasutra5.jpg | May 24 16:35 |
| ah the OLPC saga. | May 24 16:36 | |
| _boo_ | so i've got banned from ##windows may be 15 times in a row | May 24 16:36 |
| _boo_ | barely less | May 24 16:37 |
| OLPC officials complained about Intel bribing countries to drop OLPC deployments | May 24 16:37 | |
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| _boo_ | one laptop for child (olpc) | May 24 16:38 |
| the entire Wintel press alternately ignored and viciously FUD attacked the project, deliberately creating weaknesses out of strengths. | May 24 16:38 | |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 16:38 |
| _boo_ | strengths of whom? | May 24 16:39 |
| of design trade offs | May 24 16:39 | |
| _boo_ | wtf cares | May 24 16:39 |
| DaemonFC | ...the ugly attacks from Mac fanboys are exactly what Microsoft was hoping to provoke, says David Webster, general manager for brand marketing at Microsoft [The genius behind the pointless/expensive Seinfeld ads and the Mojave project that tanked]. He says the idea was to turn Apple's "I'm a Mac" campaign to Microsoft's advantage. "We associate real people with being PCs, [but then Apple]... | May 24 16:39 |
| DaemonFC | ...ends up looking pretty mean-spirited, the way they go after customers," he says. "It's clear that's who they are insulting." At the same time he can't resist taking a crack at the preciousness of some Mac users. "Not everyone wants a machine that's been washed with unicorn tears," he says. | May 24 16:39 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.9to5mac.com/Microsoft-misleading | May 24 16:39 |
| DaemonFC | wtf? | May 24 16:39 |
| DaemonFC | lol | May 24 16:39 |
| for instance, making fun of the device's low power which was responsible for all day use ability | May 24 16:40 | |
| _boo_ | no | May 24 16:40 |
| Bill Gates set the tone with talk about "cranking all day" | May 24 16:40 | |
| _boo_ | intel devices are not capable of usage for full day | May 24 16:40 |
| MinceR | how so? | May 24 16:40 |
| DaemonFC | so the whole point of those ads was to provoke Apple fanboys? | May 24 16:40 |
| _boo_ | easilly, 90s are gone | May 24 16:40 |
| which is why OLPC did not use intel, they used AMD geode which is | May 24 16:40 | |
| _boo_ | XD | May 24 16:41 |
| MinceR | _boo_: you aren't making sense | May 24 16:41 |
| _boo_ | of course | May 24 16:41 |
| _boo_ | try to prove it? | May 24 16:41 |
| _boo_ | and you're lost | May 24 16:41 |
| MinceR | OLPC used geode because it needs little power, didn't they? | May 24 16:41 |
| Finally M$ memos emerged which showed how they viciously targeted Negrponte's personality and desires to totally derail the project by bribing MIT's media department. | May 24 16:41 | |
| MinceR | twitter: any chance of that turning into a lawsuit? | May 24 16:42 |
| _boo_ | lol, netbooks are powered with sucky accumulators | May 24 16:42 |
| OLPC then wasted all sorts of time and money making a Windows version that no one wanted. | May 24 16:42 | |
| DaemonFC | "People don't want crap. No matter how bad the economy is" | May 24 16:42 |
| DaemonFC | nice title | May 24 16:42 |
| MinceR | strange, crap seems to be all that's commercially viable nowadays | May 24 16:42 |
| DaemonFC | but Windows still outnumber Macs 9 to 1 | May 24 16:42 |
| _boo_ | wtf... | May 24 16:42 |
| Yeah, it's like you have to pay people to use Windows, especially Vista, eh FC? | May 24 16:42 | |
| DaemonFC | so I wonder if they realized they jsut called the Mac crap | May 24 16:42 |
| DaemonFC | lol | May 24 16:42 |
| MinceR | why is calling the mac crap surprising? | May 24 16:43 |
| MinceR | calling crap crap should be normal. | May 24 16:43 |
| DaemonFC | cause it's a site promoting Macs | May 24 16:43 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 16:43 |
| I hope OLPC sues M$ and Intel but I think they are too busy with their mission. | May 24 16:43 | |
| DaemonFC | OLPC had some interesting ideas, but it's basically over | May 24 16:43 |
| _boo_ | so, mincer? | May 24 16:43 |
| DaemonFC | it instead spawned a bunch of imitators running Windows XP | May 24 16:44 |
| MinceR | _boo_: what | May 24 16:44 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 16:44 |
| Yes, Geode has good power efficiency. I've see it used in various solar power projects. | May 24 16:44 | |
| _boo_ | you told shit | May 24 16:44 |
| _boo_ | prove it | May 24 16:44 |
| _boo_ | or deny | May 24 16:44 |
| MinceR | _boo_: ok, now say the _other_ half of those sentences | May 24 16:44 |
| MinceR | perhaps then they'll be intelligible. | May 24 16:44 |
| _boo_ | so you just walk away | May 24 16:44 |
| DaemonFC | well, for one you have the Classmate PC, and those are going out with Windows XP | May 24 16:44 |
| MinceR | _boo_: colorless green ideas sleep furiously | May 24 16:45 |
| DaemonFC | I mean I think the OLPC unintentionally just cracked open a new market for low end Windows machines | May 24 16:45 |
| _boo_ | MinceR, you don't make sense | May 24 16:45 |
| schestowitz | If Microsoft Removes 3-App Restriction, Linux Still Wins < http://digg.com/d1s0ih > | May 24 16:45 |
| _boo_ | you just proved it | May 24 16:45 |
| MinceR | _boo_: i answered to you in kind. | May 24 16:45 |
| All Windows is low end, regardless of hardware used. | May 24 16:45 | |
| _boo_ | you answered with dumbosity | May 24 16:45 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I've played with Starter Edition, it's not really as horrible as it sounds | May 24 16:45 |
| _boo_ | if that's only what you're capable with | May 24 16:46 |
| I wish "/ignore" worked here | May 24 16:46 | |
| DaemonFC | it exempts your antirvirus, it exempts anything in the system tray | May 24 16:46 |
| DaemonFC | it exempts browser tabs | May 24 16:46 |
| MinceR | _boo_: you've maid a claim, then instead of supporting it you started spewing random words. | May 24 16:46 |
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| DaemonFC | so there's really only a few ways you can hit that limit | May 24 16:46 |
| _boo_ | you started to make insults | May 24 16:46 |
| MinceR | _boo_: i got tired of trying to decipher your gibberish. | May 24 16:46 |
| _boo_ | without any proof | May 24 16:46 |
| _boo_ | so f u | May 24 16:46 |
| MinceR | _boo_: i responded to another discussion | May 24 16:46 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 16:46 | |
| MinceR | _boo_: no, fuck you | May 24 16:47 |
| kick time | May 24 16:47 | |
| _boo_ | i don't kare what you get tired of | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | no, fuck you | May 24 16:47 |
| *zer0c00l has quit ("fuck all") | May 24 16:47 | |
| _boo_ | 'cause you didn't prove your insults | May 24 16:47 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: So for me right now I have Seamonkey and that's running my mail and Chatzilla, so that doesn't count at all | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | it only means that they are applicable to you | May 24 16:47 |
| MinceR | _boo_: go back to kindergarten | May 24 16:47 |
| _Hicham_ | kick time schestowitz | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | only | May 24 16:47 |
| DaemonFC | I can leave Winamp in the tray, so that wouldn't count unless I popped it open | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | yeah, i'm already 2 | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | but you just suck | May 24 16:47 |
| DaemonFC | Windows Live Messenger is in the tray, so that doesn't count | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | at everything | May 24 16:47 |
| _boo_ | and you spit words randomly | May 24 16:48 |
| DaemonFC | you can have more than 3 apps but you need to make judicious use of the system tray | May 24 16:48 |
| _boo_ | without any proof | May 24 16:48 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: it still cripples them | May 24 16:48 |
| that you have to use workarounds says it all | May 24 16:48 | |
| DaemonFC | meh, that's only for XP and Vista Starter | May 24 16:48 |
| working around intentional limits == crippled software | May 24 16:49 | |
| DaemonFC | the 32-bit Vista DVDs have Starter on them | May 24 16:49 |
| DaemonFC | so you can select it | May 24 16:49 |
| _boo_ | v7 is not about that for sure | May 24 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Software should fulfil its ability | May 24 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Not stand in one's way | May 24 16:49 |
| DaemonFC | but since MS doesn't license that one in first world countries, I can only use it for 120 days | May 24 16:49 |
| schestowitz | You don't sell a burget and spit it in first | May 24 16:49 |
| schestowitz | *burger | May 24 16:49 |
| DaemonFC | which is honestly longer than I want to put up with it | May 24 16:49 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 16:49 |
| FC misspelled "shred" as "select" | May 24 16:49 | |
| DaemonFC | it's a pain in the ass, but it's also $3, so I could see a lot of people buying it only because of that | May 24 16:50 |
| schestowitz | People don't want NPD. No matter how bad the economy is | May 24 16:51 |
| schestowitz | NPD always takes bribes. No matter how bad the economy is | May 24 16:51 |
| schestowitz | That's how it makes money | May 24 16:51 |
| _boo_ | what's npd? | May 24 16:51 |
| schestowitz | Pay NPD, say what you want to show | May 24 16:51 |
| DaemonFC | NPD hasn't always been kind to Microsoft | May 24 16:51 |
| $3, what a deal! but you can't see people using the mailed to you at their cost and restricionless Ubuntu ? | May 24 16:51 | |
| schestowitz | NPD=Narcotic Police Department | May 24 16:51 |
| DaemonFC | but there's no putting lipstick on the XBOX 360 or Zunew | May 24 16:51 |
| MinceR | :) | May 24 16:51 |
| DaemonFC | *Zune | May 24 16:51 |
| schestowitz | Promoting Windows | May 24 16:51 |
| DaemonFC | twitter: Ubuntu can't run Windows programs | May 24 16:52 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft puts the ka-ching, NPD spews the FUD | May 24 16:52 |
| schestowitz | vs Nintendo or iPod or Linux | May 24 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | so I can see a market just because Windows has more programs | May 24 16:52 |
| runs them better than Vista, FC | May 24 16:52 | |
| schestowitz | Depends on much you pay | May 24 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | even though Starter is a pain in the ass | May 24 16:52 |
| but who needs Windows programs who wants a Starter Edition? | May 24 16:52 | |
| _boo_ | starter edition... | May 24 16:52 |
| DaemonFC | well, on a system as low end as they restrict Starter to | May 24 16:52 |
| _boo_ | isn't it very limited demo? | May 24 16:53 |
| That's like saying iPhone sucks because it does not run Word. | May 24 16:53 | |
| _boo_ | in every case | May 24 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | there's not much reason to prefer one or the other | May 24 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | well, look at XP Starter, limit of 1 Ghz single core CPU, limit of 512 megs RAM, etc....... | May 24 16:53 |
| _boo_ | actually, what mac uses for word processors, table processors, databases? | May 24 16:53 |
| MinceR | actually that's close to the reason the iphone sucks :> | May 24 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | that's a pretty craptastic PC | May 24 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | so throw anything you want on it | May 24 16:53 |
| DaemonFC | you get the same awful experience either way | May 24 16:53 |
| MinceR | well, one of the reasons anyway | May 24 16:54 |
| schestowitz | http://ostatic.com/blog/team-building-open-source-rover-for-2010-lunar-landing "The importance of the open source design method" Gimme a break. it's not open source | May 24 16:54 |
| _boo_ | actually, what mac uses for word processors, table processors, databases? | May 24 16:54 |
| schestowitz | Open source wine, open source sex, open source energy. All that fluff does exist | May 24 16:54 |
| _boo_ | so that's all about mac? | May 24 16:54 |
| DaemonFC | Wine is only as good as the crac kyou have for the application you supposedly bought is | May 24 16:54 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise, no dice | May 24 16:55 |
| FC, what you describe is probably nicer than my laptop, but the limits are put in by M$ in the first place. Makers won't be able to keep those limits when China starts cranking out MIPS and ARM systems that don't suck. | May 24 16:55 | |
| schestowitz | Vista: any edition of a No-Starter | May 24 16:55 |
| in every way | May 24 16:55 | |
| DaemonFC | they won't do that | May 24 16:55 |
| M$ Open Source is sort of like Open Marriage. | May 24 16:55 | |
| why not FC? | May 24 16:56 | |
| DaemonFC | they have to respect IP if they want to remain in the WTO | May 24 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | without sanctions | May 24 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | and they want Windows | May 24 16:56 |
| "respect IP"? LOL | May 24 16:56 | |
| DaemonFC | well, there's been a few unlicensed knockoffs of American hardware in China | May 24 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | not real good stuff | May 24 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | but they're in the WTO now | May 24 16:56 |
| DaemonFC | and part of that says they have to respect IP | May 24 16:56 |
| That's why they pay ARM and MIPS licenses. | May 24 16:57 | |
| _boo_ | what kind of shit is "Microsoft® Windows® Vista Home Premium" ? | May 24 16:57 |
| schestowitz | http://ostatic.com/blog/8-guides-and-tools-for-supercharging-google-chrome Chrome: yet another win32 browser | May 24 16:57 |
| _boo_ | what's it limited to | May 24 16:57 |
| DaemonFC | ARM won't ever be huge | May 24 16:57 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: utter BS | May 24 16:57 |
| but these days, China comes up with their own chipsets and don't need the rest. | May 24 16:57 | |
| DaemonFC | not even with Linux | May 24 16:57 |
| schestowitz | "they have to respect IP if they want to remain in the WTO" | May 24 16:57 |
| MinceR | it won't because it already is | May 24 16:57 |
| schestowitz | It's Sunday. Are you drunk? | May 24 16:57 |
| MinceR | guess what's powering your mobile phone :> | May 24 16:57 |
| DaemonFC | the only good software on Linux is for X86 | May 24 16:57 |
| DaemonFC | you can port it but it's broken without a lot of x86-specific things | May 24 16:58 |
| ARM is small on purpose, but it already sells tons of embedded and it will do very well as laptops. | May 24 16:58 | |
| _boo_ | linux is almost always compatible | May 24 16:58 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: most linux apps can be compiled to any architecture linux supports | May 24 16:58 |
| _boo_ | you almost have no reason to question whether it's x86 | May 24 16:58 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: and arm is everywhere already | May 24 16:58 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, but it can't run Wine or Flash or lots of other things | May 24 16:58 |
| x86 is one of the most broken, crap platforms there is. there's just a lot of it. | May 24 16:58 | |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: not every computer will need wine or flash | May 24 16:58 |
| _boo_ | but it has got pretty good hardware support | May 24 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Wine... | May 24 16:59 |
| ARM does no need flash with gnash and theora | May 24 16:59 | |
| schestowitz | Haha like win32 on x86 | May 24 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | and a lot of firmware is binary only and depends on x86 | May 24 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Would Windows run it better? | May 24 16:59 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: you're just trolling | May 24 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Give it up | May 24 16:59 |
| DaemonFC | so you lose a lot if you try and use an esoteric platform | May 24 16:59 |
| MinceR | obviously, arm-based computers aren't going to use hardware that doesn't support arm :> | May 24 16:59 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: that's what he's been doing for weeks | May 24 16:59 |
| schestowitz | Not all the time | May 24 17:00 |
| _boo_ | almost all | May 24 17:00 |
| _boo_ | even though i think that mincer is just a bunch of crap | May 24 17:00 |
| schestowitz | He spoils it with noise vs sig | May 24 17:00 |
| DaemonFC | I would sooner believe that Windows was going to be overthrown than x86 | May 24 17:00 |
| FC, ARM was good enough for desktop use back in 2001 when Sharp made Zaurus. | May 24 17:00 | |
| schestowitz | _boo_: no cursing | May 24 17:00 |
| MinceR | _boo_: if you're going to troll all day, at least have the courtesy of not highlighting me | May 24 17:00 |
| DaemonFC | x86 has survived about a dozen supposedly superior CPUs that never caught on | May 24 17:00 |
| _boo_ | MinceR, you shouldn't 've highlighted me at all | May 24 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | it'll survive the next dozen or more | May 24 17:01 |
| _boo_ | now it's not up to you | May 24 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | I'm pretty sure of that | May 24 17:01 |
| MinceR | _boo_: learn english | May 24 17:01 |
| keep dreaming bad dreams FC | May 24 17:01 | |
| _boo_ | i don't kare? | May 24 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | Yeah, well, Apple had PPC and gave up trying to make that work and ported to X86 | May 24 17:01 |
| DaemonFC | mainly so they'd be more Windows compatible | May 24 17:01 |
| there must be some interesting news out there for IRC to be trolled like this on a Sunday. Going to look. | May 24 17:02 | |
| DaemonFC | and that worked better than any other desktop platform on any non-x86 processor | May 24 17:02 |
| _boo_ | wtf was dat about? | May 24 17:02 |
| schestowitz | http://openstack.blogspot.com/2009/05/openweb-05212009-pm.html | May 24 17:02 |
| schestowitz | Still with the CDF stuff... | May 24 17:03 |
| _boo_ | DaemonFC, do you at least understand what you told? | May 24 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | you notice that right after they port to X86, ports of PC software are better and there's more of them, and they don't take as long to get to the Mac? | May 24 17:03 |
| _boo_ | mac is x86 | May 24 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | which was the point | May 24 17:03 |
| DaemonFC | it didn't used to be | May 24 17:03 |
| _boo_ | so it's not the point | May 24 17:03 |
| _boo_ | it was ppc | May 24 17:03 |
| schestowitz | So? | May 24 17:03 |
| _boo_ | so i just makes no sense | May 24 17:04 |
| _boo_ | what he told | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | back in the dark ages of PowerPC, Mac users got a port of maybe every 20th PC application, 3 years later | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | for full price | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | it was a joke | May 24 17:04 |
| schestowitz | People don't buy Macs to run Windoers | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, but it's nice to have native software | May 24 17:04 |
| _boo_ | but they do nowadays? | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | and no developer would bother touching the Mac unless it was a pretty damned popular app that was worth the trouble | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | X86 makes porting a lot easier | May 24 17:04 |
| DaemonFC | so more do it now | May 24 17:04 |
| _boo_ | native software... | May 24 17:04 |
| _boo_ | wtf, dudes? | May 24 17:05 |
| DaemonFC | X86 migration was to make ports of Windows software easier | May 24 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft et support ODF : de graves lacunes http://www.generation-nt.com/microsoft-support-odf-sp2-office-actualite-744541.html | May 24 17:05 |
| _boo_ | do you think that most of apps in there were ppc oriented? | May 24 17:05 |
| DaemonFC | plain and simple | May 24 17:05 |
| DaemonFC | you only have to look at the before and after | May 24 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Nope | May 24 17:05 |
| schestowitz | BS | May 24 17:05 |
| schestowitz | It was built for PPC | May 24 17:05 |
| schestowitz | People could still do this | May 24 17:05 |
| _boo_ | yup | May 24 17:05 |
| _boo_ | so people could build it for x86 | May 24 17:06 |
| _boo_ | only rare fragments | May 24 17:06 |
| schestowitz | EXE runs on Windows | May 24 17:06 |
| DaemonFC | Even Microsoft had problems porting between architectures, they'd get into a situation where they ported Windows, but things like Office relied on bits of the X86, so they actually ended up rewriting more of Office than Windows NT | May 24 17:06 |
| _boo_ | that still exist in subversions | May 24 17:06 |
| schestowitz | Just arbitrary extension | May 24 17:06 |
| schestowitz | EXE does not run on mac | May 24 17:06 |
| DaemonFC | there's just no point in using non-x86 | May 24 17:06 |
| DaemonFC | with any OS | May 24 17:06 |
| _boo_ | could be restored and still compiled for x86 | May 24 17:06 |
| schestowitz | It's irrelevant how devs build it for Macs as long as it's consistent. | May 24 17:06 |
| _boo_ | i just don't see any problem in it | May 24 17:06 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: The extension no, but there are executable binaries | May 24 17:07 |
| DaemonFC | and the instruction set of the CPU is the same | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | like everything that mac wrote is x86 capable | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | at least in several months | May 24 17:07 |
| DaemonFC | so it is much easier to port from Windows to Intel Mac than from Windows to PPC Mac | May 24 17:07 |
| DaemonFC | which is why more developers bother now | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | no | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | it's not a problem at all | May 24 17:07 |
| DaemonFC | yes, it is | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | oh yeah | May 24 17:07 |
| _boo_ | like libraries | May 24 17:08 |
| _boo_ | low-level ones | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | Adobe has gone over the fact of the matter | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | wrt Flash | May 24 17:08 |
| _boo_ | ... | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | and why it hasn't been on anything but x86 Linux | May 24 17:08 |
| _boo_ | you don't even understand what you're talking about | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | it's a pain in the ass to rewrite major portions of it | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | just for the 3 people that use ARM | May 24 17:08 |
| _boo_ | ... | May 24 17:08 |
| DaemonFC | I wouldn't bother even trying to make anything but X86(-64) work | May 24 17:09 |
| MinceR | with properly written applications it should be enough to recompile | May 24 17:09 |
| DaemonFC | as a user | May 24 17:09 |
| DaemonFC | it's just pointless | May 24 17:09 |
| MinceR | obviously, flash isn't properly written | May 24 17:09 |
| DaemonFC | Debian does like 12 architectures and I'll guarantee you that 98% of their users are on one (x86) | May 24 17:10 |
| DaemonFC | the others are only on expensive server hardware, or old Macs | May 24 17:10 |
| DaemonFC | I'd be willing to guess that if there was a first honorable mention it would be PPC | May 24 17:11 |
| _boo_ | may be not enough to recompile | May 24 17:11 |
| _boo_ | but not too much time to rewrite | May 24 17:11 |
| DaemonFC | and the other 9 rchitectures split the remaining 1% | May 24 17:11 |
| _boo_ | like several months at all | May 24 17:12 |
| _boo_ | and all your apps are back | May 24 17:12 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing but x86 that has the economies of scale to be anything than an expensive novelty meant for proprietary servers | May 24 17:12 |
| MinceR | normally there's no assembly code; and system libraries should be used to take care of byte swapping for big-endian/little-endian | May 24 17:12 |
| MinceR | that leaves nothing to be done except compiling | May 24 17:12 |
| schestowitz | Macmentality: "ASM was originally free and open source, but after version 2.0.2, it became a $16 shareware application." http://www.macworld.com/article/140431/2009/05/asm_multixfinder.html | May 24 17:12 |
| _boo_ | asm you can write yourself | May 24 17:12 |
| _boo_ | for any processor | May 24 17:12 |
| _boo_ | and it takes days | May 24 17:13 |
| DaemonFC | right, but nobody will use anything other than x86 on mainstream desktop computers, I'd imagine, for the next 20 years or more | May 24 17:13 |
| _boo_ | having instruction set | May 24 17:13 |
| DaemonFC | it's just not going to happen | May 24 17:13 |
| DaemonFC | the other CPUs are an expensive, rare, not well supported novelty | May 24 17:13 |
| _boo_ | c is not that simple | May 24 17:13 |
| _boo_ | but it's still easy | May 24 17:13 |
| _boo_ | and with dat you can compile almost anything for dat | May 24 17:13 |
| DaemonFC | everytime you get some stooges saying the death of x86 is here, they extend it, and that form of x86 goes on for another 10 years | May 24 17:14 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 17:14 |
| DaemonFC | or more | May 24 17:14 |
| _boo_ | and what? | May 24 17:14 |
| _boo_ | x86 just sucks | May 24 17:14 |
| DaemonFC | it's not going anywhere either | May 24 17:14 |
| schestowitz | Suck snergy | May 24 17:14 |
| schestowitz | *suck energy | May 24 17:15 |
| schestowitz | That's why devices use ARM | May 24 17:15 |
| schestowitz | x86 is a minotirty | May 24 17:15 |
| DaemonFC | x86-64 can address so much memory, it will be the standard for perhaps 20 years | May 24 17:15 |
| schestowitz | x86 is a small processor segment | May 24 17:15 |
| schestowitz | Still the 'small guy' | May 24 17:15 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 17:15 |
| _boo_ | desktop memory is growing slow | May 24 17:15 |
| schestowitz | The vast majority run ARM and others | May 24 17:15 |
| _boo_ | just imagine that server memory is growing much more | May 24 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, well, ARM is a trivial, crippled architecture | May 24 17:16 |
| schestowitz | Over 10 billion chips for ARM alone. Maybe 11 billion now | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | crippled? | May 24 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | that I believe you have to use uclibc to compile Linux for | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | arm is not that bad | May 24 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | ARM is not good enough for a high end PC | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | did you ever write for arm? | May 24 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | not even a midgrade PC | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | dude | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | did you ever optimise for arm or write for it? | May 24 17:16 |
| _boo_ | it's quite capable of plenty of things | May 24 17:17 |
| _boo_ | and it costs shit | May 24 17:17 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: some ARM families do have an MMU -> no uC stuff is needed | May 24 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | x86 has too much momentum, it's much less expensive than the competition, and it's good enough to do its job | May 24 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | that's how Linux took off | May 24 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | even not being the best doesn't matter | May 24 17:18 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 17:18 |
| _boo_ | risc is almost the same everywhere | May 24 17:18 |
| _boo_ | if you wrote for arm... it's allright with everything | May 24 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | proprietary UNIX systems had capabilities that had to be hacked into Linux | May 24 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | or are still being worked on | May 24 17:18 |
| _boo_ | which ones? | May 24 17:19 |
| _boo_ | for example | May 24 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is still incapable of using XFS like IRIX | May 24 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | because it can't use multiple data streams | May 24 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | even Windows can do that | May 24 17:19 |
| _boo_ | multiple data streams... | May 24 17:19 |
| _boo_ | what do you mean by dat? | May 24 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1822 | May 24 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.opensubscriber.com/message/xfs@oss.sgi.com/7097341.html | May 24 17:20 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (No route to host) | May 24 17:20 | |
| DaemonFC | XFS supports them | May 24 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | but Linux doesn't | May 24 17:20 |
| _boo_ | ntfs alternate data streams? | May 24 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | May 24 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | Windows +NTFS support them | May 24 17:20 |
| _boo_ | linux support of ntfs is 3rd level, no? | May 24 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | shit even Mac OS X + HFS+ supports it | May 24 17:21 |
| schestowitz | Reports: Beijing behind student leader's remarks on Tiananmen < http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2009/ea_china0406_05_21.asp > | May 24 17:21 |
| _boo_ | just to be able to restore what's in there | May 24 17:21 |
| DaemonFC | but Linux can't support that with any file system | May 24 17:21 |
| _boo_ | mkay | May 24 17:21 |
| DaemonFC | XFS is supported on Linux through the use of compatibility shims that effectively hide things the file system can do that Linux can't understand | May 24 17:22 |
| MinceR | alternate data streams are an overrated gimmick. | May 24 17:22 |
| DaemonFC | but eventually Linux will | May 24 17:22 |
| _boo_ | wtf | May 24 17:23 |
| _boo_ | that article is almost talk about nothing | May 24 17:23 |
| MinceR | XFS sucks anyway | May 24 17:23 |
| MinceR | it has metadata-only journaling, which is a recipe for disaster | May 24 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | brainwashed | May 24 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | ugggh | May 24 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | no it's not a recipe for disaster | May 24 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | a hard drive is | May 24 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | if anything in a PC needs succeeded it is the hard drive | May 24 17:24 |
| LOL, " Stopping the spread of Vista just makes sense." http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/05/rumors_of_vista.html;jsessionid=D4N2FXUCONBZSQSNDLPSKHSCJUNN2JVN | May 24 17:24 | |
| DaemonFC | not the CPU | May 24 17:24 |
| _boo_ | DaemonFC, it's just talk about nothing in that article | May 24 17:24 |
| _boo_ | s | May 24 17:24 |
| _boo_ | but you could point me to smth sane in there | May 24 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | and the file system you use on a SSD has no impact on how long it lasts | May 24 17:25 |
| _boo_ | both articles | May 24 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | the Linux people are just smoking crack | May 24 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | the controller in the device already HAS wear leveling | May 24 17:25 |
| _boo_ | for sure... that's why they like their freedom | May 24 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | so let's write another one! | May 24 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 17:25 |
| MinceR | the question isn't how long the hw lasts, it's whether your data survives a power outage | May 24 17:25 |
| MinceR | or a system crash | May 24 17:25 |
| MinceR | basically whether you can reliably store and retrieve data as long as the underlying hw works | May 24 17:26 |
| DaemonFC | use any file system you want | May 24 17:26 |
| _boo_ | wear leveling almost doesn't have anything in common with power outage | May 24 17:26 |
| _boo_ | like at all | May 24 17:26 |
| MinceR | i think the point of a wear leveling filesystem would be saving the cost of doing the same in hw | May 24 17:26 |
| DaemonFC | hard disk crash | May 24 17:27 |
| DaemonFC | now what? | May 24 17:27 |
| DaemonFC | Ext | May 24 17:27 |
| DaemonFC | will not save you | May 24 17:27 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 17:27 |
| MinceR | hd crash is not the only thing that can happen | May 24 17:27 |
| _boo_ | you definitely shoud take care bout dat in raid5 | May 24 17:27 |
| DaemonFC | a UPS good for 20 minutes is like $25 at Walmart | May 24 17:28 |
| DaemonFC | boohooo | May 24 17:28 |
| _boo_ | mincer, almost all the flashes are with level wearing | May 24 17:28 |
| MinceR | _boo_: i know | May 24 17:28 |
| DaemonFC | I wouldn't trust any file system over the next one | May 24 17:28 |
| DaemonFC | in a power outage | May 24 17:28 |
| _boo_ | ... | May 24 17:28 |
| _boo_ | talk about nothing | May 24 17:28 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: does a UPS also protect against crashes caused by a buggy proprietary driver? | May 24 17:28 |
| DaemonFC | I've had more crashes cause of the open source ones | May 24 17:28 |
| _boo_ | like 20 lines before | May 24 17:28 |
| DaemonFC | better not use condoms | May 24 17:29 |
| MinceR | i'll interpret that as a "no" | May 24 17:29 |
| DaemonFC | they don't protect you 100% :P | May 24 17:29 |
| MinceR | so have fun with your files that are now full of zeroes | May 24 17:29 |
| DaemonFC | you are just being pedantic | May 24 17:29 |
| DaemonFC | and argumentative | May 24 17:29 |
| MinceR | you are just being stupid, as usual | May 24 17:29 |
| _boo_ | he's just being dumb | May 24 17:29 |
| _boo_ | "mincer" | May 24 17:29 |
| DaemonFC | I've had better luck with proprietary drivers actually | May 24 17:30 |
| DaemonFC | the open source ones tend to be incomplete or incorrect | May 24 17:30 |
| you would on Windows | May 24 17:30 | |
| they would be on Vista | May 24 17:30 | |
| _boo_ | oh yeah | May 24 17:30 |
| _boo_ | they will help ya alot | May 24 17:30 |
| DaemonFC | Vista = 0 crashes Ubuntu = Every damned day | May 24 17:30 |
| _boo_ | both window$ and vi$ta | May 24 17:30 |
| not much in the news today | May 24 17:30 | |
| DaemonFC | because Linux power management doesn't work right, Linux audio drivers don't work right | May 24 17:31 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: enough, will ya? | May 24 17:31 |
| DaemonFC | I could go on | May 24 17:31 |
| schestowitz | They work fine | May 24 17:31 |
| _boo_ | DaemonFC, are you effing out of your effing mind? | May 24 17:31 |
| schestowitz | Yoy don't use Kubyx | May 24 17:31 |
| works for me | May 24 17:31 | |
| schestowitz | Abd it show | May 24 17:31 |
| schestowitz | He uses Vista | May 24 17:31 |
| DaemonFC | Linux has suspend and resume problems | May 24 17:31 |
| MinceR | _boo_: you even fail reading comprehension, so just shut up | May 24 17:31 |
| DaemonFC | severe | May 24 17:31 |
| _boo_ | if you're not capable of using linux properly, it doesn't mean it's bad | May 24 17:31 |
| not on my laptop, FC | May 24 17:31 | |
| DaemonFC | and severe problems with HDA drivers | May 24 17:31 |
| _boo_ | you just can't hammer a nail | May 24 17:31 |
| _boo_ | with a hammer | May 24 17:31 |
| _boo_ | you use monitor for dat | May 24 17:31 |
| here's a fun picture http://images.watoday.com.au/2009/05/05/504170/Article_windows-420x0.jpg | May 24 17:32 | |
| bad lighting on the poor lady | May 24 17:32 | |
| schestowitz | Mcirosoft death spiral | May 24 17:32 |
| schestowitz | Circling the drain.. | May 24 17:32 |
| DaemonFC | this whole "We'll break it now and maybe fix it 6 months from now when we break other things" roller coaster is bananas | May 24 17:32 |
| schestowitz | its journalists get fired too now | May 24 17:32 |
| she's Julie Larson-Green, Corporate Vice President for the Windows Experience at Microsoft. | May 24 17:32 | |
| schestowitz | Some become Linux journalists | May 24 17:32 |
| schestowitz | twitter: damage contro | May 24 17:33 |
| DaemonFC | my guess is that guy was about to be fired so he left and is now just showing his ass | May 24 17:33 |
| schestowitz | They had a fiasco (Vista) | May 24 17:33 |
| DaemonFC | for the sheer sake of doing it | May 24 17:33 |
| schestowitz | So they send out ladies | May 24 17:33 |
| ah | May 24 17:33 | |
| DaemonFC | pissed off ex-employee is nothing new | May 24 17:33 |
| _boo_ | if advertisemen contains lady | May 24 17:33 |
| _boo_ | pretty one | May 24 17:33 |
| schestowitz | the vista marketing people quit | May 24 17:34 |
| better face than Sweaty B | May 24 17:34 | |
| _boo_ | it's surely a fail | May 24 17:34 |
| schestowitz | Marketing chief quid in 2008 | May 24 17:34 |
| schestowitz | The Vista bloggers (main guy) did too | May 24 17:34 |
| Wow! | May 24 17:34 | |
| schestowitz | They sgot abuse | May 24 17:34 |
| schestowitz | From Vista users | May 24 17:34 |
| or did they just get sick of pushing crap onto innocent users? | May 24 17:34 | |
| DaemonFC | "I installed Vista and now it gets in the way of running Porno Toolbar, this sucks!" | May 24 17:34 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | May 24 17:34 |
| _boo_ | oh for sure | May 24 17:35 |
| _boo_ | did you ever see pr0n tulbar in linux? | May 24 17:35 |
| malware breaking your malware, FC? | May 24 17:35 | |
| _boo_ | i just wasn't able to kome into anything malware in linux | May 24 17:35 |
| DaemonFC | meh, I think Vista is sheer genius and the bad user experience was largely intentional | May 24 17:36 |
| _boo_ | even though i didn't update my mandriva for year | May 24 17:36 |
| DaemonFC | it's a Rembrandt on the scale of New Coke | May 24 17:36 |
| _boo_ | rembrandt was not genious | May 24 17:36 |
| Everything M$ is cool to FC | May 24 17:36 | |
| _boo_ | doesn't matter in this channel | May 24 17:36 |
| DaemonFC | everyone hated new coke and so they "brought back" the original | May 24 17:36 |
| _boo_ | if he wants to prove anything | May 24 17:36 |
| _boo_ | let him | May 24 17:36 |
| DaemonFC | and sales shot through the roof | May 24 17:36 |
| schestowitz | Look at this rubbish from bangalore: http://www.cxotoday.com/India/News/Open_Source_no_Alternative_to_Enterprise_Software/551-102235-908.html | May 24 17:36 |
| _boo_ | but it's most likely not a proof at all | May 24 17:36 |
| schestowitz | They imply that open source is not enterprise | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | And not commericial | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | It's like it'scoming stright out of Redmond | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | The usual pattern | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | open source= "not commerical" | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | open source= "not for enterprise" | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | Typical FUD | May 24 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Enterprise software products do not compete with open source software just as Bose does not compete with the ability to sing, said Sreenivasan. | May 24 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | May 24 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | that's awesome | May 24 17:37 |
| schestowitz | Shame on them for publishing this drek | May 24 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | did they mention that lots of open source software is used on Windows? | May 24 17:38 |
| or at Google? | May 24 17:38 | |
| not commercial, lol | May 24 17:38 | |
| _boo_ | it's enough to visit sf | May 24 17:38 |
| _boo_ | to see how many of them is windows supported | May 24 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | nothing stops KDE from grabbing Webkit and making a decent browser | May 24 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | except pride | May 24 17:39 |
| _boo_ | why not having another web kit? | May 24 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | it represents a huge improvement on KHTML | May 24 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | that's why they hate it | May 24 17:39 |
| _boo_ | who? | May 24 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | they made it and Apple and Google made it work | May 24 17:39 |
| schestowitz | Google Chrome 2.0: faster, but feature-poor < http://blogs.computerworld.com/google_chrome_2_0_faster_but_feature_poor > | May 24 17:39 |
| _boo_ | chrome is just a joke | May 24 17:40 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I suggest add-ons anonymous | May 24 17:40 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Nope | May 24 17:40 |
| DaemonFC | the 12 step program for Firefox users | May 24 17:40 |
| schestowitz | People who like Linux respect it | May 24 17:40 |
| schestowitz | It just needs plugins | May 24 17:40 |
| _boo_ | wtf... it's google | May 24 17:40 |
| schestowitz | I remember browsing on Linux with Konqueror 3.1 in 2003 | May 24 17:40 |
| schestowitz | Before FF 0.9 | May 24 17:40 |
| _boo_ | google won't do anything that's not for their benefits | May 24 17:40 |
| _boo_ | their benefits only | May 24 17:41 |
| schestowitz | Back then Linux had a deficiency of great browsers and ones that can access sites of STUPID Webmasters | May 24 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | man, you are like Francis of Assisi | May 24 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | stigmata and all | May 24 17:41 |
| schestowitz | Google Chrome is for Golgl | May 24 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 17:41 |
| schestowitz | eStay with Mozilla | May 24 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | using Konqueror is like | May 24 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | whoa | May 24 17:41 |
| _boo_ | i don't like konq | May 24 17:41 |
| schestowitz | I use Konqueror, still | May 24 17:41 |
| schestowitz | For some things it's fine | May 24 17:41 |
| _boo_ | yup | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | As a Web browser too | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Some ue lynx | May 24 17:42 |
| _boo_ | i use it, but i don't use it for a lot of things | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Fine for some tasks | May 24 17:42 |
| for many things, there is no substitute for Konq. | May 24 17:42 | |
| _boo_ | like which? | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Konq is always on the same desktop as xchat for me | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | For microblogging | May 24 17:42 |
| schestowitz | Instead os AIR | May 24 17:42 |
| split panes, pdf handling, bookmark excellence, tab handling, file management, the list of konq excellence is long. | May 24 17:43 | |
| schestowitz | City of Vancouver embraces open data, standards and source < http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2009/05/22/tech-vancouver-open-source-standards-software-city.html > | May 24 17:44 |
| _boo_ | mkay, ff is capable of that too | May 24 17:44 |
| schestowitz | Vancouver is huegely developed | May 24 17:44 |
| _boo_ | so where konq is better than ff | May 24 17:44 |
| schestowitz | Large Asia population | May 24 17:44 |
| _boo_ | i'm not even counting any other browser | May 24 17:44 |
| schestowitz | Some people buy houses there, even from the US | May 24 17:44 |
| schestowitz | It could become a world centre | May 24 17:44 |
| _boo_ | nothing like ff has more addons, extensions and stuff | May 24 17:44 |
| tab handling, for example. "duplicate tab, detach tab, close tab, reload tab" | May 24 17:44 | |
| schestowitz | I had a neighbour from Vancouver. Quite good looking she was... | May 24 17:44 |
| _boo_ | like keyshortcuts are not enough | May 24 17:45 |
| _boo_ | i only use reload and duplicate | May 24 17:45 |
| _boo_ | at 1% | May 24 17:45 |
| Tod Bishop seems to be spinning things in M$'s favor but he can't avoid this " Many of those enterprise agreements are coming up for renewal now, and the stakes are high because of the way the deals are structured." | May 24 17:45 | |
| that must be the reason for heavy trolling right now. | May 24 17:46 | |
| they want to blind corporate decision makers | May 24 17:46 | |
| DaemonFC | I'll bet that Julie Larson-Green was behind the decision to remove the Classic interface from Windows 7 | May 24 17:46 |
| knocking BN off Google search results must be PR task #1 right now. | May 24 17:46 | |
| schestowitz | Could You Help with Some Open Source Research? < http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-cms/could-you-help-with-some-open-source-research-004668.php > | May 24 17:47 |
| disruption of IRC is also apparent | May 24 17:47 | |
| schestowitz | twitter: like downtime did? | May 24 17:47 |
| right | May 24 17:47 | |
| schestowitz | That's why I don't like downtime | May 24 17:48 |
| schestowitz | I don't mind subs cause they come back | May 24 17:48 |
| schestowitz | But we get off the SERPs. One you slide you might never come back | May 24 17:48 |
| it's what you worried about, now I see the reason, thanks to Bishop | May 24 17:48 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=phamaceutical+cartel&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8 | May 24 17:48 |
| schestowitz | #2 | May 24 17:48 |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=cipav&btnG=Search | May 24 17:48 |
| schestowitz | #7 | May 24 17:48 |
| it's more about timing | May 24 17:49 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=ron+hovsepian&btnG=Search | May 24 17:49 |
| schestowitz | #5 | May 24 17:49 |
| Corporate "assurance" plans are expiring, budgets are thin and people are fed up with the whole Windows experience. | May 24 17:49 | |
| M$ needs lots of Windows 7 puff and GNU/Linux FUD in the air. They can't stand people getting independent confirmation of their crappy Windows experience. | May 24 17:50 | |
| When people get that independent feedback, they realize it's not them, it's not their hardware, it's not the internet, it's Windows that makes problems for them. | May 24 17:51 | |
| schestowitz | Look at this junk: | May 24 17:52 |
| schestowitz | http://pr-usa.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=214244&Itemid=33 | May 24 17:52 |
| schestowitz | "Webkit (Apple)" | May 24 17:52 |
| schestowitz | So they use Apple code and they call themselves "open source" | May 24 17:52 |
| schestowitz | What next..? | May 24 17:53 |
| schestowitz | twitter: watch out for vista7 comments | May 24 17:53 |
| schestowitz | They employe AstroTurfs | May 24 17:53 |
| lots of them | May 24 17:53 | |
| schestowitz | If they can't plant articles (e.g. bribed bloggers), they hire Edelman, W-E and the likes of them to pollute sites | May 24 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Like /. | May 24 17:53 |
| schestowitz | And attack those who criticise VIsts7 | May 24 17:54 |
| schestowitz | Like that IDG guy who did a benchmark | May 24 17:54 |
| schestowitz | Showed it was as far as Vista | May 24 17:54 |
| Yeah, I've seen a lot of that recently. | May 24 17:54 | |
| schestowitz | Others did too | May 24 17:54 |
| schestowitz | He can't say that | May 24 17:54 |
| schestowitz | They'll "f* kill him", to use Ballmer's words | May 24 17:54 |
| Kennedy | May 24 17:54 | |
| _boo_ | DaemonFC, classic interface is not what m$ wanted you to defend | May 24 17:54 |
| _boo_ | in win7 | May 24 17:54 |
| _boo_ | no | May 24 17:54 |
| schestowitz | Yes, Kennedy | May 24 17:54 |
| _boo_ | they wanted you to defent anything | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | But he did it fast | May 24 17:55 |
| _boo_ | but drm | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | Right after MS had bribed bloggers | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 100 of them | May 24 17:55 |
| _boo_ | you just shouldn't talk about it | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | I think about 70 would be the right number | May 24 17:55 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 17:55 |
| What's Kennedy been writing recently, I wonder. | May 24 17:55 | |
| _boo_ | so m$ got the things right | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | To this date, journo who NEVER TRIED vista 7 just write it's good because some early testers (bribed bloggers) said so | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | They had exclusive access to it | May 24 17:55 |
| schestowitz | pre-beta | May 24 17:55 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 17:56 |
| _boo_ | dude, vista was a pre-step for win7 | May 24 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I recently found out who Ballmer marries | May 24 17:56 |
| Yes, I remember the hard drive party that Kennedy was blacklisted from | May 24 17:56 | |
| schestowitz | Some marketing gal... | May 24 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Stein something IIRC | May 24 17:56 |
| _boo_ | and once you're in win7, you reject xp | May 24 17:56 |
| schestowitz | From W-E | May 24 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Waggener Endsrum | May 24 17:56 |
| _boo_ | so it's just as simple as dat | May 24 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Liars marries another liar | May 24 17:56 |
| well, he paid her one way ... | May 24 17:57 | |
| schestowitz | _boo_: no | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | You can't even 'upgrADE' FROM xp ro Vista7 | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | what no? | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | (sorry, CAPS) | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | and what? | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | it doesn't mean a thing | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | You can't move from XP to Vista7 | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | No upgrade routew | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | and? | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | and? | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | And it's fatter | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | And... | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | It has 'XP mode' | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | lol | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | Yeah! | May 24 17:57 |
| schestowitz | Why upgrade to Vista7 | May 24 17:57 |
| _boo_ | you shouldn't upgrade to vista | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Because it can run XP | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | yay! | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | bo. | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | no | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Boo. | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | you didn't get it | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Just stay with XP... OR | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | it's just a trick | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Use ubuntu+XP in VM | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | you're effing insane with vista | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | and win7 is not that bad | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | that's why you at last move to it | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | and develop for it | May 24 17:58 |
| schestowitz | Panasonic: Open-source smartphones are the future < http://venturebeat.com/2009/05/22/panasonic-open-source-smartphones-are-the-future/ > That's where most chips go. | May 24 17:58 |
| _boo_ | but you don't think of what underlies | May 24 17:59 |
| _boo_ | and there's drm | May 24 17:59 |
| _boo_ | enforced | May 24 17:59 |
| _boo_ | and there's rebuying of software | May 24 17:59 |
| _boo_ | for yet another shifty platform | May 24 17:59 |
| I wonder if there are still more commercial GNU/Linux developers than there are Vista developers. | May 24 17:59 | |
| _boo_ | but you were talkign only about how bad vista was | May 24 17:59 |
| _boo_ | so win7 is a saviour for ya | May 24 17:59 |
| and if there are any Windows 7 developers | May 24 17:59 | |
| _boo_ | schestowitz, you read published m$ letters | May 24 18:00 |
| _boo_ | i just don't get why you don't get it all yet | May 24 18:00 |
| or if, in M$ terms, all the Windows 7 downloaders are just "leaches" who don't contribute anything. lol | May 24 18:00 | |
| I read that M$ tried to threaten OEMs with revocation of their Vista certification if they did not also pay for Windows 7 certification. | May 24 18:01 | |
| _boo_ | business is not chaotic, it's built upon quite a good ideas | May 24 18:02 |
| that's like threatening to remove a turd if a person does not pay for horse shit | May 24 18:02 | |
| _boo_ | you can't just talk about statistics | May 24 18:02 |
| _boo_ | or flaws | May 24 18:02 |
| schestowitz | http://www.traffick.com/2009/05/could-anti-google-choices-re-energize.asp "Gina Trapani, the influential founding editor of Lifehacker, one of the most popular blogs around, says she's dumping Google search in favor of Yahoo! search. " | May 24 18:02 |
| _boo_ | you better talk about ideas | May 24 18:02 |
| really | May 24 18:03 | |
| _boo_ | waht | May 24 18:03 |
| more Google FUD | May 24 18:03 | |
| the slog goes on. but is anyone paying attention? | May 24 18:03 | |
| _boo_ | omg... i'm soon out of this channel | May 24 18:04 |
| _boo_ | people just don't tend to think here on higher level | May 24 18:04 |
| " While this isn't exactly the equivalent of Jay-Z dropping Cristal and throwing his support to Dom Perignon, it may well be the start of a trend." | May 24 18:05 | |
| _boo_ | i will just return back in 5 years when you grown up a little and tired of searching links of articles so you start to build up a solution | May 24 18:05 |
| what is the M$ obsession with Cristal? | May 24 18:05 | |
| who reads Lifehacker? | May 24 18:06 | |
| *_boo_ (n=hg@eth-188.243-homell.natm.ru) has left #boycottnovell | May 24 18:07 | |
| schestowitz | I don't | May 24 18:09 |
| http://www.traffick.com/about/default.asp#bios | May 24 18:09 | |
| schestowitz | But Gina is cool | May 24 18:09 |
| schestowitz | And Kevin Purdy | May 24 18:09 |
| traffick.com are not cool at all | May 24 18:09 | |
| schestowitz | Pirillosoft did the Google ban like 4 years ago | May 24 18:09 |
| Polly Sci and some idiot that previously was messing up health care. | May 24 18:10 | |
| I get tired of reading troll articles by complete incompetents. | May 24 18:10 | |
| life hacker is sucking the life out of my browser | May 24 18:12 | |
| it finally came through | May 24 18:14 | |
| Is Gina a Windows user? | May 24 18:14 | |
| schestowitz | Not really | May 24 18:15 |
| *tacone (i=97508c5f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-876d343cb6624f31) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 18:15 | |
| schestowitz | They cover a lot of Linux | May 24 18:15 |
| schestowitz | Wrtong target | May 24 18:15 |
| she must be a windows user for Rhapsody music to work in her browser | May 24 18:16 | |
| and she must be stupid to think she's going to get better privacy from Yahoo than Google, given Yahoo's closeness with M$. | May 24 18:18 | |
| the traffic.com people took her stuff and tried to spin it further. | May 24 18:19 | |
| It would work if it were not so transparent or if anyone was paying attention. | May 24 18:19 | |
| schestowitz | Doesn't Rhapsody work with Linux too? | May 24 18:20 |
| Let me find out for sure. | May 24 18:20 | |
| I'll pull up iceweasel and see. | May 24 18:21 | |
| wow, it is trying very hard | May 24 18:23 | |
| it comes up with a flash player that has Vista decorations | May 24 18:24 | |
| DaemonFC | Does Rhapsody still use RM or is that another WMA store now? | May 24 18:25 |
| the circling blue asshole wait indicator and coffin black widget | May 24 18:25 | |
| DaemonFC | I'll never use a format that only works in certain media players on particular operating systems | May 24 18:26 |
| DaemonFC | that's just crazy | May 24 18:26 |
| it says "now playing your song" and there's lots of data transfer for video.music.yahoo.com but nothing happens | May 24 18:26 | |
| well, it spins my cpu around a lot | May 24 18:26 | |
| schestowitz | RM | May 24 18:26 |
| whatever it is, it does not work. | May 24 18:27 | |
| at least not with free software available for Lenny. | May 24 18:27 | |
| Youtube did better. | May 24 18:27 | |
| anyone looking for music goes to youtube first anyway. | May 24 18:27 | |
| I'm killing the player it sucks. | May 24 18:28 | |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I tried out Monkey's Audio | May 24 18:28 |
| *silentivm (n=renan@189.58.192.215.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #Boycottnovell | May 24 18:28 | |
| DaemonFC | I was impressed at the size of the files | May 24 18:28 |
| at least it exited cleanly | May 24 18:28 | |
| DaemonFC | slightly smaller than FLAC | May 24 18:28 |
| DaemonFC | perhaps 5-6% | May 24 18:28 |
| trmanco | *** glibc detected *** gnote: corrupted double-linked list: 0x0937c740 *** | May 24 18:29 |
| schestowitz | Linux skeptic runs Moblin: Trying Out Moblin < http://www.everyjoe.com/newlinuxuser/trying-out-moblin/ > | May 24 18:29 |
| trmanco | wtf | May 24 18:29 |
| DaemonFC | it's open source under a non-OSI approved license, I think basically you can't sell it | May 24 18:29 |
| trmanco | what does that mean? | May 24 18:29 |
| schestowitz | twitter: +1 re YouTube | May 24 18:29 |
| schestowitz | Google loses money there, though | May 24 18:30 |
| DaemonFC | VLC plays APE files | May 24 18:30 |
| DaemonFC | not sure there's an encoder for Linux though | May 24 18:30 |
| DaemonFC | Monkey's Audio Encoder would probably work in Wine | May 24 18:30 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: when running? | May 24 18:30 |
| schestowitz | Or crashing? | May 24 18:30 |
| schestowitz | DOuble-linked list is the dats struct | May 24 18:30 |
| does google really lose money with YouTube? | May 24 18:30 | |
| trmanco | startup | May 24 18:30 |
| schestowitz | New version? | May 24 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | it's amazing how quickly people turn against you when your license isn't GPL | May 24 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 18:31 |
| trmanco | my computer just restarted for some reason | May 24 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Compiled? | May 24 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Repo? | May 24 18:31 |
| trmanco | and after that, gnote craped out | May 24 18:31 |
| trmanco | repo | May 24 18:31 |
| schestowitz | twitter: about half a billion/annum in losses | May 24 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Rebuild it | May 24 18:31 |
| schestowitz | Or refetch it | May 24 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | yes, Monkeys Audio Encoder does work in Wine | May 24 18:32 |
| DaemonFC | Platinum :) | May 24 18:32 |
| schestowitz | But maybe it's a glib issue | May 24 18:32 |
| trmanco | ah | May 24 18:32 |
| trmanco | one of my notes is causing this | May 24 18:32 |
| $500 is small potatoes next to M$'s media losses. | May 24 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | Yes | May 24 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Around the same for some portions | May 24 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Like search | May 24 18:32 |
| schestowitz | Per QUARTER | May 24 18:33 |
| schestowitz | Not annum | May 24 18:33 |
| So, google search + youtube == big profit | May 24 18:33 | |
| but M$ search + media == big loss | May 24 18:33 | |
| schestowitz | F11 Linux lookin' good: http://www.junauza.com/2009/05/fedora-11-leonidas-is-almost-ready-to.html | May 24 18:34 |
| done purely to "kill google" | May 24 18:34 | |
| schestowitz | Nope | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | Google is the phenomenon | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | SaaS | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | And data on server | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | MS wants to be 'the Google' | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | I.e. kind of of the datacentres | May 24 18:34 |
| schestowitz | *kind/king | May 24 18:35 |
| M$ wants to be "the center of computing" the obvious choice for all. | May 24 18:35 | |
| schestowitz | Think about a Donkey Kong-like baboon in the DC tossing chairs down the path | May 24 18:35 |
| they go to these other areas to maintain their place at the center, it has not worked out so well | May 24 18:35 | |
| Google does not need to be the center to keep it's place. It just has to offer good service. | May 24 18:36 | |
| M$ is second or third rate everywhere. | May 24 18:36 | |
| schestowitz | Chromium for Linux finally reaches Alpha build < http://softsaurus.org/pages/news/article/196/chromium-for-linux-finally-reaches-alpha-build > Go give it a spin. | May 24 18:36 |
| they must have everything to stay on top | May 24 18:37 | |
| schestowitz | Advertising | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Corruptible analysts | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Like Moody's | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Slogs | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Lawyers | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | (to fight regulators while Ballmer and co do the crimes) | May 24 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Chromium Hits Alpha Release! < http://d0od.blogspot.com/2009/05/chromium-hits-alpha-release.html > | May 24 18:38 |
| schestowitz | It's not really open | May 24 18:38 |
| schestowitz | Chrome vs Chromium | May 24 18:39 |
| schestowitz | Monopoly vs Mozilla | May 24 18:39 |
| schestowitz | Better to promote Firefox | May 24 18:39 |
| tacone | ? | May 24 18:39 |
| schestowitz | And raise the issue why we need Firefox. Chrome goes for low-hanging fruit. It's risky | May 24 18:39 |
| tacone | elaborate | May 24 18:39 |
| schestowitz | tacone: If Mozilla shrinks, then Google revenue is depleted | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Google won't be there to help Mozilla forever | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Help Firefox lean itself 'up' | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | And Google will have Chrome TV adverts | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Mozilla can't do all this | May 24 18:40 |
| tacone | monopoly = ? | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | We don't need another Apple vs MS | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Like Google vs MS | May 24 18:40 |
| schestowitz | Monopoly != monopolist | May 24 18:41 |
| schestowitz | They give value, they force nothing | May 24 18:41 |
| We shall see what Google does with Mozilla | May 24 18:41 | |
| tacone | the issue with firefox is it sucks in many ways | May 24 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Monopoly is market>50% by some definition IIRC | May 24 18:41 |
| schestowitz | It just means you are watched differently. It doesn't make you evil; | May 24 18:41 |
| > 60% I thought | May 24 18:41 | |
| schestowitz | Intel went evil | May 24 18:41 |
| trmanco | wow | May 24 18:41 |
| trmanco | gnote started | May 24 18:41 |
| schestowitz | Bribery, sabotage, obstruction of justice, attacking charitties, etc | May 24 18:41 |
| schestowitz | That's monopolist | May 24 18:42 |
| *trmanco tries to create a note | May 24 18:42 | |
| trmanco | gnote crashes | May 24 18:42 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: m\o/NO | May 24 18:42 |
| trmanco | don't know why this is happening | May 24 18:42 |
| tacone | trmanco: that's the ppa verion ? | May 24 18:42 |
| tacone | version ? | May 24 18:42 |
| trmanco | yes | May 24 18:42 |
| trmanco | 0.3.1 | May 24 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Report a bug | May 24 18:42 |
| tacone | uhm. | May 24 18:42 |
| trmanco | I will | May 24 18:42 |
| schestowitz | Your trial version outlives | May 24 18:43 |
| trmanco | but it's random | May 24 18:43 |
| *DaemonFC has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [SeaMonkey 2.0b1pre/20090524001512]") | May 24 18:43 | |
| tacone | i'm curious to see what gnome will do about gnote. | May 24 18:43 |
| trmanco | sometimes it won't start, and sometimes it does | May 24 18:43 |
| schestowitz | Pay >HERE< for Gnote{TM} Premium | May 24 18:43 |
| schestowitz | Just $99.99+VAT | May 24 18:43 |
| schestowitz | Gnote StARRR!TER Edition comes with limit on # of notes | May 24 18:44 |
| tacone | What's wrong with gnote ? | May 24 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Me? I joe | May 24 18:44 |
| schestowitz | *joke | May 24 18:45 |
| tacone | oh | May 24 18:45 |
| schestowitz | ushimitsudoki has just upgraded. http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/upgrade-to-jaunty/ | May 24 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Krtia! http://slangkamp.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/10-years-of-krita/ | May 24 18:47 |
| tacone | jaunty has been flawless for me | May 24 18:48 |
| schestowitz | Edubuntu must review its core focus < http://engage.wordpress.com/2009/05/24/edubuntu-must-review-its-core-focus/ > | May 24 18:48 |
| schestowitz | I have Feisty on the other PC | May 24 18:48 |
| schestowitz | Not booted it for almost a year | May 24 18:48 |
| schestowitz | I should give this PC away | May 24 18:48 |
| tacone | charity ? | May 24 18:49 |
| schestowitz | They would probably put satanic disks on it | May 24 18:52 |
| schestowitz | If we had Ken Starks over here, then.... | May 24 18:52 |
| schestowitz | http://1bnr.wordpress.com/2009/05/23/the-long-road-to-gentoo/ (The Long Road to Gentoo) | May 24 18:52 |
| schestowitz | "Flock has been downloaded 7.5 million times but has just 1.1 million active users. (Compare that to Firefox's 270 million). Is Flock doing something wrong here?" http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/why_dont_you_love_flock.php | May 24 18:53 |
| schestowitz | http://tuxradar.com/content/modify-xorgconf-better-performance | May 24 18:55 |
| schestowitz | http://blog.cosmix.org/2009/05/23/moblin-proof-that-corporate-support-needed/ (Moblin: Proof that Corporate Support Needed.) <<---- Blah! | May 24 18:56 |
| schestowitz | The assumption that group of developers is not corporate | May 24 18:56 |
| schestowitz | Like the FOSS=hobby lie | May 24 18:56 |
| tacone | lol | May 24 18:56 |
| tacone | they hired gnome guys | May 24 18:56 |
| schestowitz | Yeah | May 24 18:56 |
| schestowitz | Corporate = group of non-coding MS MBAs taking meeting minuates and sending out shil^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hperception managers | May 24 18:58 |
| tacone | moblin just proved that money to found the right guys makes for faster development | May 24 18:59 |
| tacone | and that you just need a new UI to make people say ooooh | May 24 18:59 |
| schestowitz | Also proves MS is afraid of ARM, Intel likewise | May 24 18:59 |
| schestowitz | I've just removed the maths trap for comments | May 24 19:01 |
| schestowitz | it was buggy | May 24 19:01 |
| schestowitz | Replace with "close of posts" from Matt | May 24 19:01 |
| schestowitz | /of/old/ | May 24 19:01 |
| schestowitz | a=a+1?? Please, don’t waste your time. http://gabrielstein.org/blog/?p=302 | May 24 19:03 |
| schestowitz | he is on Novell's $$yroll? | May 24 19:03 |
| schestowitz | "Fed Up Passer-by Pushes Suicide Jumper In China [...] Chen Fuchao, a man heavily in debt, had been contemplating suicide on a bridge in southern China for hours when a passer-by came up, shook his hand - and pushed him off the ledge." http://cbs11tv.com/watercooler/china.suicide.jumper.2.1017569.html | May 24 19:05 |
| schestowitz | See what debt does to people? | May 24 19:05 |
| schestowitz | Buy now, pay later | May 24 19:05 |
| schestowitz | Some nations are built purely on this idea | May 24 19:05 |
| schestowitz | Peer pressure makes it norm and requirement. How about saving up to buy something you want? | May 24 19:05 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 19:06 | |
| schestowitz | moneighborlee: | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: did you know your digg had been removed..on removing mono from ubuntu ? | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | mooooo | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | :) | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | http://digg.com/linux_unix/Remove_Mono_dependency_from_Ubuntu < this one | May 24 19:06 |
| schestowitz | Really? | May 24 19:06 |
| schestowitz | Where? | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | seems so | May 24 19:06 |
| schestowitz | me digg? | May 24 19:06 |
| neighborlee | lol | May 24 19:06 |
| schestowitz | *my | May 24 19:07 |
| schestowitz | Did I submut this? | May 24 19:07 |
| neighborlee | it says you did..on far right side of page | May 24 19:07 |
| schestowitz | it's there | May 24 19:07 |
| neighborlee | granted its almost been 2 years.. | May 24 19:07 |
| schestowitz | The Digg | May 24 19:07 |
| neighborlee | yes | May 24 19:07 |
| schestowitz | http://digg.com/d1Idn2 | May 24 19:07 |
| schestowitz | hehe | May 24 19:07 |
| neighborlee | yup ;) | May 24 19:08 |
| neighborlee | lol | May 24 19:08 |
| tacone | uh... | May 24 19:08 |
| schestowitz | I submitted 6,721 pages to Digg | May 24 19:09 |
| schestowitz | And go fed up | May 24 19:09 |
| neighborlee | heh | May 24 19:10 |
| neighborlee | can you dig it indeed ;)) | May 24 19:10 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: so intreped came with one less mono package than hardy did..banshee..but I hear they are trying to reintroduce it later on..I wonder how jaunty did in that regard .... | May 24 19:14 |
| schestowitz | "The Wall Street Journal has published a revealing story about one of the seamier sides of the drug industry's marketing campaigns: paying patients to offer testimonials about their drugs." http://www.prwatch.org/node/8381 | May 24 19:14 |
| neighborlee | seems I read somewhere they are trying to get rid of rhythmbox and replace with something else | May 24 19:14 |
| schestowitz | Yes | May 24 19:15 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: naaaaaasty | May 24 19:15 |
| schestowitz | bansheet | May 24 19:15 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: lol | May 24 19:15 |
| schestowitz | ban this sheet | May 24 19:15 |
| neighborlee | ha | May 24 19:15 |
| schestowitz | it's a Novell program | May 24 19:15 |
| schestowitz | Does Ubuntu still comes with Novelloution? | May 24 19:16 |
| neighborlee | aren't they all LOL | May 24 19:16 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz: out of box I doubt it..honeslty not sure though | May 24 19:16 |
| silentivm | Ubuntu still comes with Evolution, IIRC | May 24 19:16 |
| schestowitz | Yes | May 24 19:16 |
| neighborlee | hmm | May 24 19:16 |
| schestowitz | It did in 5.x | May 24 19:16 |
| tacone | yep | May 24 19:16 |
| tacone | it still does. | May 24 19:16 |
| neighborlee | does it depend on mono now ?? | May 24 19:16 |
| schestowitz | in 4.10 too | May 24 19:17 |
| silentivm | neighborlee, no | May 24 19:17 |
| neighborlee | k | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | I can recall it... | May 24 19:17 |
| tacone | i can check | May 24 19:17 |
| silentivm | I have Evolution here and I don't havem ono | May 24 19:17 |
| silentivm | *have mono | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | Almost for sure when I used ot | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu has a poor taste in apps | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | Could Thunderbird be put on the CD-ROM? | May 24 19:17 |
| neighborlee | I never did like evo | May 24 19:17 |
| tacone | not directly | May 24 19:17 |
| neighborlee | its slow...very slow | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | MPL iIRC | May 24 19:17 |
| schestowitz | Not GPL | May 24 19:17 |
| silentivm | I like Evolution | May 24 19:17 |
| tacone | my god | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | I do too | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | Not the program | May 24 19:18 |
| silentivm | (the program) | May 24 19:18 |
| tacone | removing mono removes libgnome-vfs2.24-cil | May 24 19:18 |
| silentivm | :D | May 24 19:18 |
| neighborlee | it was slower anyway..way slower than say thunderbird.. | May 24 19:18 |
| tacone | what's that ? | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | It seems too Exchange oriented to me | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | Like Outlook wannabe | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | The last thing I want is the feeling of anorther WInders | May 24 19:18 |
| silentivm | it works for me, I want an integrated tasks/schedule/to-do/mail program | May 24 19:18 |
| schestowitz | That's why I also avoid OOo | May 24 19:18 |
| tacone | oh, it's just a binding. forgive me | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | yeah | May 24 19:19 |
| neighborlee | whew | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | Would surprise | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | Excdpt in OpenSUSE | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=varghese+opensuse+evolution&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8 | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | Many discussions | May 24 19:19 |
| schestowitz | Re: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/114055/index.html | May 24 19:19 |
| neighborlee | yeah OpenS would stop you from removing aps that needed mono..or it used to anyway I wonder.... | May 24 19:19 |
| neighborlee | hm | May 24 19:20 |
| schestowitz | 'Oops' | May 24 19:20 |
| schestowitz | ┌─(roy@localhost Sun, 24 May 09)─————————————————————————————─(/home/roy)────┐ | May 24 19:20 |
| schestowitz | └─(19:20 $)─> mono | May 24 19:20 |
| schestowitz | Press tab | May 24 19:20 |
| schestowitz | And hear the bell of triumph | May 24 19:21 |
| tacone | lol | May 24 19:21 |
| schestowitz | Atlantis homecoming delayed again < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/23/atlantis_landing_delayed/ > Aren't they usually younger? | May 24 19:22 |
| *mikankun has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | May 24 19:22 | |
| schestowitz | What's the point of space tourism? Waste of fuel really. | May 24 19:23 |
| schestowitz | You can take ferrets out to space, but they won't show off to their mate ferrets about it.. | May 24 19:24 |
| neighborlee | rofl | May 24 19:24 |
| neighborlee | what i'd give to go into space | May 24 19:24 |
| neighborlee | beam me up scotty...few intelligence life forms down here LOL | May 24 19:25 |
| neighborlee | wait..ill take teh shuttle sorry,,,meet you there < if you materilize that is > ha ;)) | May 24 19:25 |
| neighborlee | mccoy wannabe ;)) | May 24 19:25 |
| tacone | girls are not attracted by space-tourists, also. they prefer bike-riders | May 24 19:25 |
| tacone | *bikers | May 24 19:25 |
| schestowitz | Some people might not believe it | May 24 19:26 |
| neighborlee | lol | May 24 19:26 |
| schestowitz | hell underground, God up above | May 24 19:26 |
| schestowitz | But that's another story | May 24 19:26 |
| neighborlee | hah | May 24 19:26 |
| trmanco | trmanco@trmanco-desktop:~$ mono | May 24 19:27 |
| trmanco | The program 'mono' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: | May 24 19:27 |
| trmanco | sudo apt-get install mono-jit | May 24 19:27 |
| trmanco | bash: mono: command not found | May 24 19:27 |
| schestowitz | └─(19:28 $)─> man , mono sucks | May 24 19:28 |
| schestowitz | No manual entry for , | May 24 19:28 |
| schestowitz | No manual entry for mono | May 24 19:28 |
| schestowitz | No manual entry for sucks | May 24 19:28 |
| trmanco | heh | May 24 19:28 |
| schestowitz | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10248745-62.html Dell Studio XPS 13 laptop shipping with Ubuntu | May 24 19:29 |
| tacone | we should really make a sucks man page then | May 24 19:29 |
| tacone | xps 13 is a top selling laptop | May 24 19:30 |
| tacone | also engadget made an article on ubuntu+xps13 | May 24 19:30 |
| schestowitz | Michael Horowitz posts some very banal stuff... http://blogs.computerworld.com/ubuntu_auto_login_problem_solved http://blogs.computerworld.com/ubunti_wi_fi_password_problems | May 24 19:30 |
| schestowitz | IDG is no longer a news site | May 24 19:30 |
| schestowitz | It's like wordpress.com | May 24 19:30 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu is HOT: Monitor CPU Temperatures in Ubuntu < http://www.connectedinternet.co.uk/2009/05/24/monitor-cpu-temperatures-in-ubuntu/ > | May 24 19:31 |
| schestowitz | Mitt mail till Mark < http://blogg.idg.se/free_thinking/entry.jsp?messid=10475 > | May 24 19:34 |
| tacone | if you strip the 6 month cycle, ubuntu hype will die | May 24 19:37 |
| tacone | the problem with the 6 month cycle is that apple and microsoft can't keep up with it. | May 24 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Cool: http://twitter.com/floschie/statuses/1901287677 | May 24 19:37 |
| schestowitz | The guys behind the Munich migration to Debian | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Linking to u | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | *s | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | tacone: issue is patching | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Too many devs maintaining many releases | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Even Ballnux slowed down | May 24 19:38 |
| tacone | there are many issues | May 24 19:38 |
| schestowitz | To about 8-month cycle (fixed-ish), according to Kulow | May 24 19:38 |
| tacone | i don't think 1 year cycle will be easier in any way. | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | Just older s/w | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | But. | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | I thought about this earlier today | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | here is their issue | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | Had they waited 12 months | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | People would run to lkatest and greatest | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | E.g. Mandriva, Feodra | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | So no compeitive edge | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | Same distros | May 24 19:39 |
| schestowitz | Same components | May 24 19:40 |
| *_Goblin (n=tim2@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | May 24 19:40 | |
| schestowitz | People jjudge by version # | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | and integratiio and brangs | May 24 19:40 |
| _Goblin | hi all | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: you broke your site | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | I noticed | May 24 19:40 |
| _Goblin | and DOH | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | And the links were broken | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | Still are | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | I got cache earlier | May 24 19:40 |
| _Goblin | I will never use Python again | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | Why Python | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | What IRC method did you use? | May 24 19:40 |
| schestowitz | And why did the DB get affected? | May 24 19:40 |
| _Goblin | i was looking for a cheap quick way to make a little idea I had | May 24 19:40 |
| _Goblin | I was using some convoluted IRC binding | May 24 19:41 |
| *tacone thinks he should backup more | May 24 19:41 | |
| _Goblin | the plan was for a irc/blog client so I could quote conversations directly into my posts without copy and paste | May 24 19:41 |
| _Goblin | I had an option to remove drafts from the Wordpress DB.... | May 24 19:42 |
| debt is not something many take by choice. It is a symptom of corporate power and failing economy. | May 24 19:43 | |
| _Goblin | unfortunately it wasnt the drafts I was removing and took out a range of about 2 weeks worth. | May 24 19:43 |
| many people are in debt to credit cards used to pay medical bills | May 24 19:43 | |
| people losing their homes grasp at what they can while looking for a job that can pull them out | May 24 19:44 | |
| most people are unable to build savings, even when they have decent jobs. they are kept that way so that they can't make trouble. | May 24 19:45 | |
| macabe_ | Due to american corporate greed, you can have the whole family work @wmart or mikey's | May 24 19:45 |
| macabe_ | and not make a dent in their debt | May 24 19:46 |
| yes and there are more women working than men | May 24 19:46 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft And ODF: Bad For Everyone < http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2009/05/22/microsoft-and-odf-bad-for-everyone/ > | May 24 19:46 |
| schestowitz | twitter: agreed. | May 24 19:46 |
| schestowitz | The education system is an example | May 24 19:47 |
| schestowitz | many start their career/life with debt | May 24 19:47 |
| schestowitz | Or inheriting someone else's | May 24 19:47 |
| Right to Read | May 24 19:47 | |
| schestowitz | It's imprisonment | May 24 19:47 |
| schestowitz | imprisonment gives power to control someone else | May 24 19:47 |
| schestowitz | If they owe you, they are held by their scrutum | May 24 19:47 |
| if you lose that job, you lose it all even if your wife is working. | May 24 19:48 | |
| house, kids education, poof | May 24 19:48 | |
| macabe_ | Good reason not to locked into proprietary s/w; FOSS freedom to learn | May 24 19:49 |
| we also need the freedom to share | May 24 19:50 | |
| this removes publishers and companies from their ability to control thought | May 24 19:50 | |
| and culture | May 24 19:51 | |
| schestowitz | SDame thing | May 24 19:51 |
| schestowitz | Culture->thought | May 24 19:51 |
| right | May 24 19:51 | |
| schestowitz | Thought->feeling etc etc | May 24 19:51 |
| schestowitz | Just a matter of how your phrase this philosophy | May 24 19:51 |
| but control is now complete enough to set specific thoughts to control voting and public policy | May 24 19:52 | |
| feelings are just a crutch | May 24 19:52 | |
| schestowitz | " Binyam Mohammed's attorney says waterboarding is the "tip of the iceberg"." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#23%20May%202009%20%28Tip%20of%20the%20iceberg%29 | May 24 19:52 |
| yes, that's an ugly story | May 24 19:52 | |
| schestowitz | This whole torture thing is so counter-productive. Have they learned nothing from history? | May 24 19:52 |
| schestowitz | It's not even effective | May 24 19:52 |
| schestowitz | CIA former(s) say so | May 24 19:52 |
| it is effective, at extracting false confessions | May 24 19:53 | |
| schestowitz | Let me find it.. | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Yes | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | 'effective' | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | At reaching the goal | May 24 19:53 |
| and it's a lot of fun for frustrated and evil people | May 24 19:53 | |
| schestowitz | Assuming you justify the hypothesis | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | If the goal is to criminalise, not to reduce crime | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Like CCTV here | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | No evidence it prevents crime | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Cam!=policeman | May 24 19:53 |
| schestowitz | Cam is aperture | May 24 19:53 |
| justification is only required in the short term if you have enough people to blame while you take the profits | May 24 19:54 | |
| schestowitz | If someone pull a knife I'll run to Mr. Camera | May 24 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, that'll save me1! :-D | May 24 19:54 |
| Actually, I know someone who was saved that way. | May 24 19:54 | |
| schestowitz | Same with cellphones | May 24 19:54 |
| schestowitz | Rather than defend (err... report!) they attract muggers | May 24 19:54 |
| That could be, but the police cited the cameras at a bus stop. | May 24 19:54 | |
| schestowitz | Now... a TASER | May 24 19:54 |
| schestowitz | That might actually help | May 24 19:55 |
| He was also saved by his bag full of papers. | May 24 19:55 | |
| schestowitz | But a society of drunken skinheads with Tasers would not be fun. | May 24 19:55 |
| schestowitz | "Taser fights! Yay!" | May 24 19:55 |
| especially when the skinheads have uniforms and badges, no fun at all | May 24 19:55 | |
| my friend showed me the bag. it's about 6 inches thick and still has the slash mark in it. | May 24 19:56 | |
| Overall though, the camera did not Prevent the crime. | May 24 19:56 | |
| schestowitz | The sooner they die the better (papers): http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20090521055258877 | May 24 19:56 |
| It did help direct a police response. | May 24 19:56 | |
| schestowitz | NTY is in HUGE debt | May 24 19:56 |
| schestowitz | Did you know? | May 24 19:56 |
| schestowitz | Very debt-saddled | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | And that's like the leading one. | May 24 19:57 |
| _Goblin | I think though the camera helps a case greatly that may have well fallen appart | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Business is like people | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Always in debt | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Always in "we'lll break through in the future" mode | May 24 19:57 |
| _Goblin | Also these CCTV cameras are blamed on the police. | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Even MS | May 24 19:57 |
| business is looted | May 24 19:57 | |
| just like employees | May 24 19:57 | |
| schestowitz | “They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.” | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | BUZZ! | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Wrong | May 24 19:57 |
| it is the same thing | May 24 19:57 | |
| schestowitz | Time's up | May 24 19:57 |
| schestowitz | No collection | May 24 19:58 |
| schestowitz | Black screen of death? FAIL. | May 24 19:58 |
| schestowitz | MS got sued massively for trying that in China | May 24 19:58 |
| schestowitz | twitter: Just small business | May 24 19:58 |
| schestowitz | I.e. mom and pop | May 24 19:58 |
| schestowitz | I.e. people | May 24 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Those brave enough to try and take on the government's 'Red Stores' | May 24 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Like Wal-Mart | May 24 19:59 |
| no, large business is looted as well. | May 24 19:59 | |
| schestowitz | GM=Lada | May 24 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Fai? | May 24 19:59 |
| schestowitz | No problem | May 24 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Bailout 4 u | May 24 19:59 |
| GE, automakers, etc | May 24 19:59 | |
| *neonfloss has quit ("Leaving") | May 24 19:59 | |
| schestowitz | Looted by whom? | May 24 19:59 |
| all of their executive handed themselves what should be spent on production and employees | May 24 20:00 | |
| they robbed shareholders, employees and customers | May 24 20:00 | |
| and they have left us with companies that are little more than brand names and financial fraud. | May 24 20:00 | |
| production was shipped off to China | May 24 20:01 | |
| macabe_ | Like the bonuses for execs of AIG after taxpayer looting v2.0 | May 24 20:01 |
| it all boils down to the same thing. employees lose their pensions as their stocks become worthless. fat cats looted everything. | May 24 20:02 | |
| schestowitz | yes | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | Investors | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | I.e. people | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | But some got wages | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | From those investors | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | Without inside info | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | And banks made commission | May 24 20:02 |
| schestowitz | The tops, not the clerks | May 24 20:03 |
| schestowitz | Uighurs in the Media < http://www.thenewdominion.net/736/uighurs-in-the-media/ > | May 24 20:03 |
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| well, there's a rather obvious concentration of wealth as well as a rather obvious reduction in net worth. | May 24 20:03 | |
| schestowitz | In 2010 Asia and Latin America will be leading the use of free software, according to a report carried out by researchers from Seville http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem.aspx?ItemId=57862&CultureCode=en | May 24 20:04 |
| schestowitz | Any graphs for wealth disrib? | May 24 20:04 |
| Those who looted enough are still rich but everyone else is on the edge of poverty. | May 24 20:04 | |
| I don't have graphs, it is a personal observation. | May 24 20:04 | |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_distribution | May 24 20:04 |
| good old wiki | May 24 20:04 | |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_distributionofwealth_GDP_and_population_by_region.gif | May 24 20:05 |
| schestowitz | Global distrib | May 24 20:05 |
| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wdpiechartppp2000.gif Japan #2 | May 24 20:06 |
| schestowitz | I think it's well out of date | May 24 20:06 |
| " In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth." | May 24 20:06 | |
| this has gotten much worse in the last decade, which is why the US lurches into a depression | May 24 20:07 | |
| schestowitz | MPs to censor their own expenses < http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5078727/MPs-to-censor-their-own-expenses.html > | May 24 20:07 |
| schestowitz | twitter: yes | May 24 20:07 |
| schestowitz | I was trying to find the chart | May 24 20:07 |
| schestowitz | With years on the x axis | May 24 20:08 |
| schestowitz | I know the UK one | May 24 20:08 |
| schestowitz | Also, seeing the curves overlapping, by country | May 24 20:08 |
| schestowitz | y axis: % | May 24 20:08 |
| schestowitz | It would show return to feudalism | May 24 20:08 |
| schestowitz | A la previous centuries | May 24 20:09 |
| schestowitz | BECTA has a forum... http://collaboration.becta.org.uk/message/2821;jsessionid=EE8BDE18D42450E341BE3E6F3059AE1B How to increase the uptake of Open Source? | May 24 20:09 |
| corporate consolidation has concentrated power in a self reinforcing manner. it is run away positive feedback, capped with massive looting and failure | May 24 20:10 | |
| schestowitz | Chinese think tank investigation report of 3.14 incident in Tibet < http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2009/05/19/chinese-think-tank-investigation-report-of-314-incident-in-tibet/ > | May 24 20:10 |
| schestowitz | Lots of the US 'wealth' is just borrowing from China | May 24 20:10 |
| schestowitz | The charts need to be unfolded | May 24 20:10 |
| exploitation of China | May 24 20:10 | |
| schestowitz | Yes, same there. | May 24 20:11 |
| but a self defeating kind of exploitation | May 24 20:11 | |
| schestowitz | With maybe 1% controlling lots | May 24 20:11 |
| schestowitz | Peons/vassals for factories | May 24 20:11 |
| more like collaboration | May 24 20:11 | |
| schestowitz | At least their masters are no longer Japanese or British | May 24 20:11 |
| at this point, it is unclear who is master | May 24 20:11 | |
| corporate consolidation, at it's limit, is indistinguishable from what happens in China | May 24 20:12 | |
| one big corrupt company. | May 24 20:13 | |
| M$, Cisco, Google and Yahoo do as they are told in China, showing clearly who's boss. | May 24 20:14 | |
| they try to do the same things here and tell US government what to do. | May 24 20:14 | |
| US Citizens and government will either wake up to this and take charge or they will continue their merger with China. | May 24 20:15 | |
| the fight for freedom is key | May 24 20:16 | |
| schestowitz | http://www.fsdaily.com/blog/gnus-not-unix-richard-stallman-byte-editors-july-1986 | May 24 20:16 |
| schestowitz | "Stallman: I'm currently planning to start with the kernel that was written at MIT and was released to the public recently with the idea that I would use it. This kernel is called TRIX; it's based on remote procedure call. I still need to add compatibility for a lot of the features of UNIX which it doesn't have currently." | May 24 20:17 |
| schestowitz | "I haven't started to work on that yet. I'm finishing the compiler before I go to work on the kernel. I am also going to have to rewrite the file system. I intend to make it failsafe just by having it write blocks in the proper order so that the disk structure is always consistent." | May 24 20:17 |
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| schestowitz | Now many of us use the GNu system :-D With that other program called Linux | May 24 20:17 |
| there you go | May 24 20:18 | |
| it only took 10 years | May 24 20:18 | |
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| http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/income&wealth.htm | May 24 20:22 | |
| http://www.lcurve.org/images/LCurveFlier2003.pdf | May 24 20:26 | |
| it's worse when you break down the percentages | May 24 20:27 | |
| 20% groups lump Bill Gates with people who earn more than $100,000, clearly a poor grouping that needs refinement. | May 24 20:27 | |
| schestowitz | The first chart could be done better | May 24 20:28 |
| schestowitz | It should be spaced equally | May 24 20:28 |
| schestowitz | To show the high cars as narroe | May 24 20:28 |
| schestowitz | *narrow | May 24 20:28 |
| schestowitz | twitter: well, that group does not pay tax, eitger | May 24 20:29 |
| schestowitz | They leave that to the poor | May 24 20:29 |
| schestowitz | Remember: BillG in in 'charity' | May 24 20:29 |
| schestowitz | The scruff and dirt just steal food | May 24 20:29 |
| schestowitz | While Bill's club gives money to hungry kids and kittens | May 24 20:29 |
| and give most of it to their masters | May 24 20:29 | |
| schestowitz | Anyway, that's the portraysl in the media | May 24 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Think Katrina too | May 24 20:30 |
| schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOWe4-KXqMM | May 24 20:30 |
| the question that people need to ask is what people like Bill Gates actually do and why it's so well rewarded | May 24 20:31 | |
| schestowitz | Well, they make small businesses vanish | May 24 20:34 |
| schestowitz | I.e. cause people to be fired | May 24 20:34 |
| schestowitz | So they can then sing the merits of 'free' markets and wonders of 'capitalism' (in their own mind it's more like fascism) | May 24 20:35 |
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| trmanco | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue143 | May 24 21:11 |
| Omar871 | Hi | May 24 21:11 |
| Omar871 | What's the quote for Albert Einstein about the Americans? The one in which he calls them "dollar chasers"? | May 24 21:12 |
| schestowitz | "Too many of us look upon Americans as dollar chasers. This is a cruel libel, even if it is reiterated thoughtlessly by the Americans themselves." --Albert Einstein | May 24 21:14 |
| schestowitz | "Too many of us look upon Americans as dollar chasers. This is a cruel libel, even if it is reiterated thoughtlessly by the Americans themselves." | May 24 21:14 |
| schestowitz | Oops | May 24 21:14 |
| schestowitz | I meant to paste this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8 | May 24 21:15 |
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| mib_egho0o | охуеть | May 24 22:05 |
| mib_egho0o | привет пидоры!!! | May 24 22:06 |
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| mib_rzmr6u | Hey Schestowitz..flatfish here.. | May 24 22:08 |
| mib_egho0o | привет козлы | May 24 22:08 |
| mib_egho0o | hello jack | May 24 22:09 |
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| mib_rzmr6u | try again...you get 3 strikes..2 left | May 24 22:09 |
| mib_rzmr6u | Well anyway, I don't have all day to sit in a dead channel like you guys do | May 24 22:11 |
| mib_rzmr6u | so...I'm just letting Schestowitz know that I do NOT believe he is responsible for DDoSing his own site. | May 24 22:11 |
| mib_rzmr6u | However, I do believe his total incompetence resulted in longer downtime | May 24 22:12 |
| mib_rzmr6u | I also believe he is entitled to his freedom of speech but he has to understand that when you attack others they will fight back | May 24 22:13 |
| mib_rzmr6u | For the record I have no idea who is screwing with him nor do I care. | May 24 22:13 |
| mib_rzmr6u | I also believe he is milking this for all it's worth..IOW publicity.. | May 24 22:14 |
| mib_rzmr6u | Hey, maybe he really does have a future as a professional advocate. | May 24 22:14 |
| mib_rzmr6u | He certainly seems to be dedicated and focused. I'll give him credit for that. | May 24 22:14 |
| mib_rzmr6u | I don't think I have ever met anyone who can remain focused as well as he can. That's a very good trait to have. | May 24 22:15 |
| mib_rzmr6u | Bye... | May 24 22:15 |
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| _Goblin | thanks for that. | May 24 22:19 |
| _Goblin | Was that really THE flatfish | May 24 22:20 |
| _Goblin | Very disapointed. Ive had many emails of info about him | May 24 22:21 |
| _Goblin | and I missed him....:( by 4 minutes | May 24 22:21 |
| schestowitz | Who knows. | May 24 22:22 |
| schestowitz | Can be a faker, can be W-E, can be Edelman, can be the attacker, can be SteveO Chairman | May 24 22:23 |
| _Goblin | roy, you heard about MS's holodeck patent (Startrek style) | May 24 22:23 |
| schestowitz | I'm reading tonight | May 24 22:23 |
| schestowitz | Which patents is this? Any URL? | May 24 22:23 |
| schestowitz | BTW, will you use apostrophes? ;-) | May 24 22:23 |
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| _Goblin | yep, latest on my blog | May 24 22:24 |
| schestowitz | I thought it was an error | May 24 22:24 |
| _Goblin | and yes, I hope you'll be pleased with my apostrophes | May 24 22:24 |
| _Goblin | what was an error? | May 24 22:24 |
| schestowitz | WordPress | May 24 22:24 |
| schestowitz | Eating/chewing some symbols | May 24 22:24 |
| schestowitz | I noticed Chips does the same | May 24 22:25 |
| schestowitz | He's in California, right? | May 24 22:25 |
| schestowitz | Joe is unemployed now...? | May 24 22:25 |
| _Goblin | not sure...I know he's from the US | May 24 22:25 |
| schestowitz | He used to shill for Microsoft from Jupiter AFAIK. | May 24 22:25 |
| _Goblin | Joe not sure about.... | May 24 22:25 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: he says he lives close to NetAppsoft | May 24 22:25 |
| _Goblin | havent been to his blog for about a week | May 24 22:25 |
| schestowitz | He has a blog? | May 24 22:25 |
| _Goblin | yeah. | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Oh | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Joe, not Chips | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Joe has family | May 24 22:26 |
| _Goblin | I made the top twenty in one of the COLA stats....I'm well proud | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | He can hopefully cover something, just not MS | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Like Joe T from the P-I | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | Or Todd Bishop | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: COLA is good if you cut the trolls | May 24 22:26 |
| schestowitz | They try to pollute it | May 24 22:27 |
| schestowitz | Had there been no trolls it would be clean and sophisticated | May 24 22:27 |
| schestowitz | That's why they have to derail it | May 24 22:27 |
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| _Goblin | I'm giving my blog a good tidy up at the moment. | May 24 22:27 |
| _Goblin | btw impressed? ' present and correct! | May 24 22:28 |
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| schestowitz | _Goblin: it makes it better | May 24 22:32 |
| schestowitz | People nitpick otherwise | May 24 22:33 |
| _Goblin | true. | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | I proofread carefully my posts in BN and comments too. I didn't use to do that. | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | Once for example I wrote about MS layoffs in 2006 | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | I made a typo | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | MDFT | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | IIRC | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | Instead of MSFT | May 24 22:33 |
| schestowitz | So one person in the comment was like, "no, it can't be true, he can't spell that thing right" | May 24 22:34 |
| _Goblin | yeah I had similar with an article | May 24 22:34 |
| schestowitz | Typo is the only measure by which to measure sloppiness | May 24 22:34 |
| schestowitz | In USENET I have many typos | May 24 22:34 |
| schestowitz | Fewer people read those posts | May 24 22:34 |
| schestowitz | And people are less hostile. | May 24 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Once you configure the filters. | May 24 22:35 |
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| Balrog_ | schestowitz: "Typo is the only measure by which to measure sloppiness" ... not exactly true | May 24 22:41 |
| Balrog_ | bad grammar also shows sloppiness | May 24 22:41 |
| MinceR | and so can the message itself | May 24 22:43 |
| schestowitz | Yes. | May 24 22:43 |
| schestowitz | HADOPI full translation < http://www.laquadrature.net/wiki/HADOPI_full_translation > | May 24 22:52 |
| schestowitz | US credit card firms clamp down < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8063108.stm > | May 24 22:52 |
| schestowitz | Why Python is not my favorite language < http://www.advogato.org/article/1008.html > | May 24 22:55 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin might sympathise.... | May 24 22:56 |
| _Goblin | lol | May 24 22:56 |
| _Goblin | dont mention Python... | May 24 22:56 |
| _Goblin | Im of the opinion we should all go back to the A500 and devpac 2....those were the days | May 24 22:57 |
| _Goblin | sorry | May 24 22:57 |
| _Goblin | I'm | May 24 22:57 |
| _Goblin | btw, Roy, what Binaries NG reader do you use? | May 24 22:58 |
| schestowitz | None | May 24 23:00 |
| oiaohm | The number 2 there is a known python bug. | May 24 23:01 |
| oiaohm | No one has worked out a good way to fix it. | May 24 23:01 |
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| MinceR | the solution to number 1 would be to use a language that requires variables to be declared | May 24 23:04 |
| MinceR | (preferably with type) | May 24 23:04 |
| MinceR | as for number 3, that's how they made implementing methods a lot simpler :> | May 24 23:05 |
| MinceR | i think it's a matter of taste anyway | May 24 23:06 |
| *tessier likes python | May 24 23:14 | |
| *MinceR likes it, too | May 24 23:15 | |
| tessier | Although I really need to learn more Haskell/Lisp/Scheme/Erlang as that is where things seem to be headed | May 24 23:15 |
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| schestowitz | tessier: do you have backups of the databases? | May 24 23:20 |
| tessier | Yes | May 24 23:21 |
| tessier | Why, do you need one? | May 24 23:21 |
| tessier | I haven't set up the new machine for backups yet...I'll make a note to do that. | May 24 23:21 |
| tessier | But I still have everything on the previous server. | May 24 23:21 |
| schestowitz | What if we set up a cron job to mysqldump a copy on ~/ every morning? | May 24 23:21 |
| tessier | Including the db dumps I did from a day or two ago. | May 24 23:21 |
| tessier | That would be fine | May 24 23:21 |
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| tessier | I just noticed that the old machine is still getting some hits for bn. So I'll leave the site up and running there for a while longer. | May 24 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | Heh. Weird that. DNS is slow in some places, I guess. | May 24 23:22 |
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| not too weird if they have dinky or M$ infrastructure | May 24 23:27 | |
| I run my own DNS at home because Cox sucks and I don't trust them. | May 24 23:28 | |
| here is something interesting http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/05/uc-davis-seeing-more-students-and-faculty-choosing-macs.ars | May 24 23:28 | |
| about 1 in 4 UC Davis students are Mac users | May 24 23:28 | |
| I'm going to see if the same source has GNU/Linux use. | May 24 23:29 | |
| tessier | I'm all for choosing mac over Windows. I'm using my wife's macbook right now. Although I know that Apple would be just like MS were they to switch positions in the market. | May 24 23:29 |
| schestowitz | New feed: http://linux.com/news/featured-blogs?format=feed&type=rss | May 24 23:29 |
| woops, the same source only says 2% | May 24 23:29 | |
| something stinks there | May 24 23:29 | |
| tessier | This is why I promote Linux use primarily. | May 24 23:29 |
| the thing to look for is freedom | May 24 23:29 | |
| Apple is less restrictive than M$ but they still violate user freedom | May 24 23:30 | |
| schestowitz | Don't check Linux usage in the US | May 24 23:30 |
| tessier | Although I am amazed that Mac OS X is Unix underneath. Open a terminal and get bash and everything. Pretty cool. | May 24 23:30 |
| schestowitz | It's scarce in the US | May 24 23:30 |
| schestowitz | You need to check in other countries | May 24 23:30 |
| schestowitz | Net Applications is predominantly junk, but it's also mostly US-based | May 24 23:30 |
| I'm amazed that anything but Unix has survived. | May 24 23:31 | |
| the study was not done by Net Applications but it significantly underestimates GNU/Linux use | May 24 23:31 | |
| schestowitz | Because it's US-based | May 24 23:33 |
| schestowitz | Try a similar one in a Germany university | May 24 23:33 |
| I'm thinking it's more a plant than a real study. GNU/Linux use is better than 2% in the US. | May 24 23:34 | |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: http://www.joewilcoxsedona.com/ | May 24 23:35 |
| M$ is strong at US Universities - the top down nature of academia makes this possible. | May 24 23:35 | |
| DaemonFC | I'm surprised that UNIX ever was | May 24 23:35 |
| schestowitz | twitter: let's see the source | May 24 23:35 |
| I was looking for that. Found a funny, VMACS and got distracted. http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself/ | May 24 23:36 | |
| DaemonFC | a lot of the horrible compromises that went into UNIX to make it work on a computer the size of a house in 1970 survived | May 24 23:36 |
| DaemonFC | and mutated | May 24 23:36 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 23:36 |
| schestowitz | What do they make of dual-boot? | May 24 23:37 |
| DaemonFC | what's worse is that instead of designing something better, GNU replicated it | May 24 23:37 |
| DaemonFC | the largest running joke from a user perspective is the dozens of horribly named and hard to remember commands | May 24 23:38 |
| two studies are cited but only one is really described in article. " Stinson's data is gathered from the university's network authentication system, which can identify whether a user is either student, staff, or faculty, as well as what operating system is being used." | May 24 23:39 | |
| DaemonFC | it made sense when it started because they didn't have a keyboard like we have now | May 24 23:39 |
| DaemonFC | they had teletypes | May 24 23:39 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: <meta name="generator" content="http://www.typepad.com/" /> http://www.joewilcox.com/ | May 24 23:39 |
| schestowitz | FOSS | May 24 23:39 |
| DaemonFC | but over time, a few commands became dozens | May 24 23:39 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: don't complain, you have your beloved windows | May 24 23:39 |
| If the authentication there is like it was at LSU, it significantly under reports GNU/Linux | May 24 23:39 | |
| DaemonFC | and a few switches and arguments each because thousands | May 24 23:39 |
| schestowitz | http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.joewilcox.com | May 24 23:39 |
| DaemonFC | it's all documented on a case by case basis :P | May 24 23:39 |
| DaemonFC | with no ehyme or reason | May 24 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | *rhyme | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | SIX APART LTD 548 Fourth St San Francisco CA US 94107204.9.177.195F5 Big-IPApache13-May-2009 | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | Media Temple, Inc. 8520 National Blvd. Building A Culver City CA US 9023272.47.228.140LinuxApache/2.0.5411-May-2009 | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | XO Communications 13865 Sunrise Valley Drive Herdon VA US 20171205.158.155.24Solaris 8Microsoft-IIS/5.05-Sep-2002 | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | XO Communications 13865 Sunrise Valley Drive Herdon VA US 20171205.158.155.152Solaris 8Microsoft-IIS/5.02-Sep-2002 | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | XO Communications 13865 Sunrise Valley Drive Herdon VA US 20171205.158.154.152Solaris 8Microsoft-IIS/5.030-Aug-2002 | May 24 23:40 |
| schestowitz | Dumped Windows for Linux? | May 24 23:40 |
| DaemonFC | as a standard, UNIX makes a bad one, but unfortunately, everyone that's tried to replace it has failed | May 24 23:40 |
| LSU's authentication required WPA_supplicant and that only worked with a few cards and distros. It was a known problem but the IT department rolled it out because it was cheap. | May 24 23:40 | |
| oiaohm | LOL | May 24 23:41 |
| DaemonFC | well, a lot of the outdated design concepts of UNIX are the reasons that schools are starting to srop/not teach it | May 24 23:41 |
| Because of that, I view the UC Davis study with suspicion until proven otherwise. | May 24 23:41 | |
| DaemonFC | *drop | May 24 23:41 |
| FC, shut up. | May 24 23:41 | |
| DaemonFC | it's hardly a conspiracy | May 24 23:41 |
| oiaohm | IIS/5.0 does not run on Solaris 8 schestowitz | May 24 23:41 |
| schestowitz | I know | May 24 23:41 |
| schestowitz | I was trying to make sense of it | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Seems like he moved off site | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | To Six Apart | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Typepad | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | But it's Linux-powered AFAIK | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Apache | May 24 23:42 |
| oiaohm | But Solaris provide web server sometimes shows up as IIS | May 24 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Not bad for an 'MS' watcher | May 24 23:42 |
| DaemonFC | unfortunately, the kinds of people that tend to write this stuff without any direction aren't the standard demographic of the people that will end up having to use it | May 24 23:42 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: unix is the best we have. deal with it. | May 24 23:42 |
| oiaohm | Depending on detection used. | May 24 23:42 |
| DaemonFC | these are the people that wear suspenders and grow beards | May 24 23:42 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: or invent something better (unlikely) | May 24 23:42 |
| DaemonFC | there are two better alternatives that exist | May 24 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | and a graveyard of should have beens | May 24 23:43 |
| MinceR | don't spare us | May 24 23:43 |
| I wish he would | May 24 23:43 | |
| DaemonFC | even the people that wrote UNIX tried to undo the damage | May 24 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | by doing Plan 9 | May 24 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | which didn't take | May 24 23:43 |
| DaemonFC | and Inferno | May 24 23:43 |
| MinceR | plan 9 is pretty much unix | May 24 23:44 |
| DaemonFC | which is a curiosity | May 24 23:44 |
| MinceR | too bad their licensing sucks | May 24 23:44 |
| DaemonFC | what a modern PC needs is something written from the ground up for a modern PC, not the 5th generation inbred descendant of something that was aimed at a mainframe | May 24 23:45 |
| DaemonFC | :P | May 24 23:45 |
| DaemonFC | you're right, it's not a choice so much as a lack of options | May 24 23:45 |
| MinceR | wow, you're so specific tonight | May 24 23:45 |
| oiaohm | For a MS watcher he was a lier schestowitz. | May 24 23:45 |
| MinceR | being a descendant of something that was aimed at a mainframe means we have multiuser support and access control | May 24 23:46 |
| MinceR | something other pc os-es didn't have | May 24 23:46 |
| DaemonFC | well, that's been my point all along, instead of new things we get the same old stuff with organ transplants | May 24 23:46 |
| MinceR | at least the same old stuff tends to work | May 24 23:46 |
| oiaohm | I would not say there is not new. | May 24 23:46 |
| MinceR | and you still haven't mentioned those supposedly better alternatives | May 24 23:47 |
| oiaohm | Linux secuirty framework is new. | May 24 23:47 |
| DaemonFC | the modern PC in many ways is better than any operating system you're likely to run on one | May 24 23:47 |
| MinceR | gnu and linux are full of new stuff | May 24 23:47 |
| oiaohm | Compared to most OS's out there Linux is one that makes the most use of the cpu and ram its got at its hands DaemonFC | May 24 23:47 |
| DaemonFC | meh, that's nice, but it doesn't get me drivers | May 24 23:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's like saying you have a hot rod with no gas tank | May 24 23:48 |
| MinceR | if you want drivers, linux is the place to go | May 24 23:48 |
| oiaohm | Drivers depend on market share DaemonFC | May 24 23:48 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: he was a Linux basher too | May 24 23:48 |
| MinceR | ask your favorite gregkh about drivers :> | May 24 23:48 |
| DaemonFC | there's no OS that works quite right because of different factors | May 24 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Hardware required for servers Linux has great driver coverage. | May 24 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Hardware required for desktop no so great. | May 24 23:49 |
| DaemonFC | choosing an operating system is like choosing between the Democrats, Republicans, and some third party screwball like Ron Paul | May 24 23:49 |
| MinceR | lol | May 24 23:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's just not going to go over well, but in different ways | May 24 23:49 |
| MinceR | it isn't that bad | May 24 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Linux hardware support is still picky in some places on desktop. | May 24 23:50 |
| oiaohm | But as Linux desktop user numbers grow that is droping. | May 24 23:50 |
| MinceR | it's picky on all other os-es too | May 24 23:50 |
| DaemonFC | well, I just assembled the rest of the peripherals for my TV tuner | May 24 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | and I like it | May 24 23:51 |
| here you go http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:Po37HjnMaSwJ:itsecuritysymposium.ucdavis.edu/presentations/2007/mredican_securityinit.ppt+site:ucdavis.edu+wpa+supplicant&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us | May 24 23:51 | |
| UC Davis has the same kind of WPA supplicant shit LSU did | May 24 23:51 | |
| DaemonFC | I rigged the IR blaster to control my cable box even | May 24 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | WPA is about all you can use | May 24 23:52 |
| DaemonFC | you can use WEP but you may as well not even bother securing it | May 24 23:52 |
| and they knew it would be a problem " Concerns Not all supplicants work well " | May 24 23:52 | |
| schestowitz | Yuck. | May 24 23:52 |
| schestowitz | Network Admission Control (NAC) | May 24 23:52 |
| That's why they under report gnu/linux use | May 24 23:52 | |
| DaemonFC | I tried WEP just to see how hard it was to crack through | May 24 23:52 |
| DaemonFC | took me 48 seconds | May 24 23:52 |
| they have a network that sucks | May 24 23:52 | |
| schestowitz | Wait | May 24 23:52 |
| DaemonFC | compared to about 5 seconds to connect with no "protection" | May 24 23:52 |
| schestowitz | This was not a survey | May 24 23:52 |
| schestowitz | Like a straw count? | May 24 23:53 |
| schestowitz | I thought they had asked person by person | May 24 23:53 |
| no, they looked at access | May 24 23:53 | |
| schestowitz | Ha! Another bogus accumulation of #s | May 24 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | speaking of Linux, some include WPA SUpllicant, some don;y | May 24 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | *don't | May 24 23:53 |
| correct | May 24 23:53 | |
| schestowitz | Like IDC phoning MS partners to check how many use Linux | May 24 23:53 |
| schestowitz | And then call it "Linux market share" | May 24 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu does because they dump non free stuff all over the user | May 24 23:53 |
| schestowitz | Comes docs show this | May 24 23:53 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: record for WEP is 2 seconds to get key. 7 seconds to connected. | May 24 23:53 |
| DaemonFC | and encourage you to download more | May 24 23:53 |
| oiaohm | And that is brute force. | May 24 23:54 |
| DaemonFC | which is why I said, don't bother | May 24 23:54 |
| in this case, they looked at a network that was unfriendly to gnu/linux and published a report about good Mac use. | May 24 23:54 | |
| very sneaky | May 24 23:54 | |
| DaemonFC | I have my router set to redirect all unauthorized users to the Goatse man | May 24 23:55 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 23:55 |
| It reinforces the bogus notion that GNU/Linux is 2% or less, but it is only useful for measuring mac and windows use. even there it is suspect because neither ARS did not mention the issue. | May 24 23:55 | |
| that is lie by misdirection. | May 24 23:55 | |
| DaemonFC | when the truth doesn't support you twitter, you make something up | May 24 23:56 |
| and by not including all relevant information, very M$ like | May 24 23:56 | |
| DaemonFC | at least you learned something | May 24 23:56 |
| No, FC, I lived the issue at LSU. | May 24 23:56 | |
| now I see it abused someplace else to lie | May 24 23:56 | |
| M$ needs people to be both ignorant and stupid. | May 24 23:57 | |
| DaemonFC | If Linux is even really at 2% I'll be surprised | May 24 23:57 |
| MinceR | gn | May 24 23:57 |
| It is a miracle they saw even 2%, but this is a lower bound at UC Davis. | May 24 23:58 | |
| DaemonFC | 1.13% according to your beloved Wikipedia | May 24 23:58 |
| DaemonFC | why don't you go edit it to support yourself? | May 24 23:58 |
| DaemonFC | :) | May 24 23:58 |
| DaemonFC | but that's still about 4-5 times where it was a few years ago | May 24 23:58 |
| I might as well chat with you directly, FC | May 24 23:58 | |
| but I'd really rather you go do something useful | May 24 23:59 | |
| DaemonFC | if Microsoft is cooking the stats, why is Vista at 22%? | May 24 23:59 |
| oiaohm | Problem is desktop usage is hard to track. | May 24 23:59 |
| DaemonFC | wouldn't they inflate that too? | May 24 23:59 |
| DaemonFC | that's embarassing | May 24 23:59 |
| If I'm cooking the books, why is gnu/linux use at 80%? | May 24 23:59 | |
| do you still enjoy beating your wife? | May 24 23:59 | |
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