yuhong | Actually, NT is themselves portable to other arches like Linux, it is just that most NT apps are closed source so it is not easy to recompile. | Jun 05 00:01 |
---|---|---|
yuhong | While most Linux apps are open source so it is easy to recompile them for any new arch. | Jun 05 00:02 |
oiaohm | Windows with no applications is basically no use yuhong | Jun 05 00:03 |
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oiaohm | Besides with Linux you can run x86 applications on anything yuhong | Jun 05 00:03 |
oiaohm | That is what qemu allows. | Jun 05 00:04 |
yuhong | Yep, and most Windows applications are closed source so they are not easy to recompile. | Jun 05 00:04 |
oiaohm | Windows does not have a x86 emulation wrapper. | Jun 05 00:04 |
oiaohm | So you are stuck. | Jun 05 00:05 |
yuhong | Look at NT for Alpha for example. | Jun 05 00:05 |
oiaohm | Yep not even MS Office. | Jun 05 00:05 |
oiaohm | It was basically dead man walking. | Jun 05 00:06 |
yuhong | Well, actually MS did release Office 4.2 and 97 for Alpha. | Jun 05 00:06 |
yuhong | DEC tried to emulate x86 on Alpha with FX!32. | Jun 05 00:06 |
schestowitz | Hehe. Silly until age 16.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1bo_rNpJAc&feature=related | Jun 05 00:06 |
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yuhong | Compaq unfortunately killed Alpha for NT just before Windows 2000 got released. | Jun 05 00:08 |
yuhong | http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2007/08/01/4155462.aspx | Jun 05 00:08 |
yuhong | BTW, how does an organization become corrupt, usually. | Jun 05 00:11 |
yuhong | MS also tried to add an x86 emulation layer to Alpha NT as well, see the beta versions of Windows 2000. | Jun 05 00:12 |
yuhong | Unfortunately, all that was killed just before 2000 got released thanks to Compaq. | Jun 05 00:12 |
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yuhong | BTW, on bureaucracy, which is better: smart people or dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures? | Jun 05 00:14 |
yuhong | That should be a clue what bureaucracy was originally designed for. | Jun 05 00:15 |
balzac | both smart and dumb people both have their place in society | Jun 05 00:16 |
balzac | The problem arises when people are wrong, whether their dumb or smart | Jun 05 00:17 |
yuhong | Yep. | Jun 05 00:17 |
yuhong | "flexibility in rules hidden in secrecy will let any organisation get more corrupt the longer it exists" | Jun 05 00:17 |
balzac | s/their/they're/ | Jun 05 00:17 |
yuhong | Another reason why smart people are better than dumb people "programmed" by bureaucratic procedures. | Jun 05 00:17 |
balzac | "The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions." | Jun 05 00:18 |
balzac | -- Oliver Wendell Holmes | Jun 05 00:18 |
yuhong | Yep! | Jun 05 00:18 |
yuhong | Good thing Google hires smart people instead of using bureaucracy to control dumb people. | Jun 05 00:19 |
balzac | Even Google will eventually become filled with mediocre people | Jun 05 00:20 |
balzac | Will Google's leaders by philosophical enough to cope with mediocrity? | Jun 05 00:20 |
yuhong | How, usually? | Jun 05 00:20 |
balzac | solidarity among mediocre employees | Jun 05 00:21 |
balzac | subduing the more advanced cognitors based on self-interests aligned with other mediocre workers | Jun 05 00:22 |
oiaohm | Google and Sun have been different on internals. | Jun 05 00:23 |
balzac | actually, this might be an example of superior social intelligence prevailing over intellectual materialism | Jun 05 00:23 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Microsoft Bing News lists articles by a white supremecy group | Jun 05 00:23 |
oiaohm | Major thing that end with mediocre people is lack of support for people trying new stuff. | Jun 05 00:23 |
oiaohm | So working there slowly becomes a grind. One the fun goes so does the invent nature. | Jun 05 00:24 |
oiaohm | One/Once | Jun 05 00:24 |
balzac | If you get defeated by a group of mediocre intellects (where intellect is measured by cognitive productivity within a specific area such as programming), you've been out-witted by a conspiracy of those who were more socially-aware. | Jun 05 00:26 |
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balzac | That means you should not make a plan which doesn't include social awareness of those who have the power to scuttle your ambitions | Jun 05 00:26 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, I suppose you already know, but just in case I found this googling accidentily ..: http://blog.christophersmart.com/articles/mono-an-infectious-disease/ | Jun 05 00:27 |
balzac | or else it's your intellectual failing | Jun 05 00:27 |
neighborlee | and for anyone else thats interested there it is | Jun 05 00:27 |
balzac | yuhong: maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Google will maintain an "intellectual aristocracy" for a while | Jun 05 00:28 |
DaemonFC | unfortunately it's been within my lifetime where I did nothing wrong here and if I did the same thing 100 miles north, in Michigan, or 40 miles east in Ohio, I would have been a felon and could have gotten anything from a fine to life in prison | Jun 05 00:29 |
balzac | on the other hand, maybe they don't actually have any great intellects, only effective businessmen and good luck | Jun 05 00:29 |
balzac | who are the deep thinkers or the noteworthy philosophers of Google? | Jun 05 00:29 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: you favour censorship? | Jun 05 00:30 |
DaemonFC | so I just have no use for any religion of hatred or intolerance who wants to turn this country into a Christian version of Iran | Jun 05 00:30 |
schestowitz | neighborlee: yes, it's there indeed | Jun 05 00:30 |
neighborlee | heh | Jun 05 00:30 |
schestowitz | He mailed me about this hoping to get BN feedback, so I posted it | Jun 05 00:30 |
DaemonFC | they argue that the state has the right to throw me in prison when I've done nothing wrong and nobody else in the world has any reason to care | Jun 05 00:30 |
schestowitz | Yeah | Jun 05 00:31 |
schestowitz | Let them talk | Jun 05 00:31 |
schestowitz | And be laughed at | Jun 05 00:31 |
schestowitz | Unless they get the gulliable | Jun 05 00:31 |
schestowitz | /a | Jun 05 00:31 |
DaemonFC | they call themselves "states rights groups" because they're a bunch of cowards and chickenshits that are afraid to tell people who they really are | Jun 05 00:31 |
balzac | DaemonFC: have you thought about the ridiculous things you wrote about RMS last time we encountered each other here? | Jun 05 00:31 |
DaemonFC | and that they really just want religious apartheid | Jun 05 00:31 |
oiaohm | The idea of rights is so funny. | Jun 05 00:32 |
schestowitz | Now we're attracting the pro-sw pats trolls... http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/02/us-supreme-court-re-bilski/#comments | Jun 05 00:32 |
oiaohm | Says that people are allows to do things but no requirement to take responisablity for there own actions. | Jun 05 00:32 |
DaemonFC | well the thing is that crazy far-right Christian groups only hold sway in a handful of states, they realize that they can never get the whole country so rasicalized that they can persecute gays and lesbians everywhere | Jun 05 00:33 |
DaemonFC | so they want to do it state by state | Jun 05 00:33 |
DaemonFC | *radicalized | Jun 05 00:33 |
balzac | DaemonFC: I think you got carried away when you portrayed RMS as somehow radical | Jun 05 00:34 |
balzac | I'm quite opposed to religious extremism and committed to individual civil liberties, as is RMS. | Jun 05 00:34 |
DaemonFC | no | Jun 05 00:35 |
oiaohm | Yet there bible does not support mistreating people. DaemonFC. They forget the good sumaritin example from jesus. | Jun 05 00:35 |
DaemonFC | he wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platter | Jun 05 00:35 |
DaemonFC | along with a bunch of other faux-liberals | Jun 05 00:35 |
balzac | DaemonFC: that's rhetorical fluff. Where is the substance? | Jun 05 00:35 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, until you get to patent parts..clearly he doesnt know about latest ecma issues ..but oh well his concern is spot on at leat < pun funny though not initially planned LOL > | Jun 05 00:35 |
balzac | < DaemonFC> he wants to hand this country to those types on a silver platter | Jun 05 00:35 |
balzac | that's drivel | Jun 05 00:36 |
DaemonFC | he's behind a group that not only hates me, they go way beyond most far-right Christians | Jun 05 00:36 |
DaemonFC | the people RMS sucks up to would behead gays and lesbians | Jun 05 00:36 |
balzac | what group? | Jun 05 00:36 |
DaemonFC | so he's terribly misguided | Jun 05 00:36 |
DaemonFC | the so-called Palestinians | Jun 05 00:36 |
balzac | you're crazy | Jun 05 00:36 |
balzac | absolutely crazy | Jun 05 00:36 |
DaemonFC | no, those types can never be allowed to gain ground, every time it happens, more people suffer under them | Jun 05 00:37 |
DaemonFC | it's like RMS and Obama want to hand over Israel to the Taliban | Jun 05 00:37 |
balzac | yeah, right | Jun 05 00:37 |
yuhong | belzac: MS is a good example. The only reason MS-DOS won was that DR dropped the ball, nothing else | Jun 05 00:37 |
balzac | RMS supported Kucinich and then Ralph Nader | Jun 05 00:37 |
balzac | It just so happens, they both disagree with Israeli foreign policy | Jun 05 00:37 |
DaemonFC | Hamas and the Taliban are really about the same | Jun 05 00:38 |
balzac | DaemonFC: even an original Zionist, former Knesset member is critical of Israeli foreign policy | Jun 05 00:38 |
balzac | They really are not the same | Jun 05 00:38 |
DaemonFC | and it really frightens me that so called liberals and democrats are siding with undemocratic/theocratic religious fascists | Jun 05 00:38 |
balzac | you're a terribly misinformed person, spreading misinformation like a typhoid mary | Jun 05 00:38 |
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balzac | you're easily frightened as well as crazy | Jun 05 00:39 |
balzac | I'm an atheist and I've never sided with theocratic types | Jun 05 00:39 |
DaemonFC | no, I've seen what every Muslim controlled state does | Jun 05 00:39 |
DaemonFC | they behead people like me | Jun 05 00:39 |
DaemonFC | or hang them | Jun 05 00:39 |
balzac | but neither do I side with screechers like you, who flame the most liberal minds among us | Jun 05 00:40 |
DaemonFC | so forgive me for not having much sympathy for the most evil religion in the world | Jun 05 00:40 |
balzac | DaemonFC: Islam and Christianity are both derived from Judaism. | Jun 05 00:40 |
oiaohm | LOL yuhong | Jun 05 00:40 |
DaemonFC | no, the liberals want tolerance for people that would have suicide bombed the geneva convention | Jun 05 00:40 |
oiaohm | DR Dos did not drop the ball. | Jun 05 00:40 |
DaemonFC | it can't be allowed | Jun 05 00:40 |
oiaohm | DR Dos was a later clone. | Jun 05 00:40 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you fail to keep individual accountability in mind. | Jun 05 00:41 |
yuhong | Yep, I was talking about CP/M-86 back in 1981. | Jun 05 00:41 |
balzac | I have no tolerance at all for terrorists, gay-bashers, woman-haters. | Jun 05 00:41 |
oiaohm | MS release windows 3.11 that at first would only work with there version of Dos | Jun 05 00:41 |
balzac | but I'm smart enough not to tar everyone in a culture with those accusations based on the deeds of a few | Jun 05 00:41 |
yuhong | Well, only betas actually had the AARD code enabled. | Jun 05 00:41 |
oiaohm | MS backed piracry. | Jun 05 00:41 |
DaemonFC | it's not the few | Jun 05 00:41 |
balzac | but you're an irrational screecher | Jun 05 00:42 |
oiaohm | So making dos not that profitable. | Jun 05 00:42 |
DaemonFC | if it was the few, then their government would not murder innocent people | Jun 05 00:42 |
DaemonFC | Islam is rotten to the very core | Jun 05 00:42 |
oiaohm | Since MS was being paid by hardware companies it did not matter if MS dos was pirated. | Jun 05 00:42 |
oiaohm | But to groups like Dr Dos that were not being paid by hardware companies it was a wrecking ball. | Jun 05 00:42 |
balzac | DaemonFC: for you to attack RMS because he's not a right-wing screecher like you is outrageous. | Jun 05 00:42 |
yuhong | Yep, the "Microsoft Tax", but DR worked that way as well. | Jun 05 00:42 |
DaemonFC | I'm not right wing | Jun 05 00:43 |
DaemonFC | I hate Islam | Jun 05 00:43 |
yuhong | With CP/M. | Jun 05 00:43 |
oiaohm | For a while yuhong | Jun 05 00:43 |
DaemonFC | and for good reason | Jun 05 00:43 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you're not like me, who writes critical opinions openly under my own name. | Jun 05 00:43 |
yuhong | What do you mean by "for a while". | Jun 05 00:43 |
balzac | I've openly criticized those who called for the death of Salman Rushdie, as well as Danish cartoonists. | Jun 05 00:43 |
oiaohm | DR dos and cp/m stuff was always avaible without hardware. | Jun 05 00:43 |
DaemonFC | Islam is not worthy of recognition or respect until it decides to no longer be murderous and bloodthirsty | Jun 05 00:44 |
DaemonFC | then I don't care what they do | Jun 05 00:44 |
oiaohm | If you wanted it yuhong | Jun 05 00:44 |
balzac | But you sit there saying "I hate this" and "I hate that" from behind your pseudonym | Jun 05 00:44 |
balzac | attacking RMS from behind your pseudonym | Jun 05 00:44 |
oiaohm | The did not back piracy yuhong | Jun 05 00:44 |
balzac | you're a coward | Jun 05 00:44 |
DaemonFC | the Muslims are the most evil group in all of history | Jun 05 00:44 |
yuhong | Correct, actually. | Jun 05 00:44 |
oiaohm | they did not back piracy yuhong. | Jun 05 00:44 |
oiaohm | Piracy destroyed them. | Jun 05 00:44 |
DaemonFC | surpassing any other society easily | Jun 05 00:45 |
yuhong | MS-DOS was OEM only at first. | Jun 05 00:45 |
oiaohm | So MS become the most dominate. | Jun 05 00:45 |
yuhong | Piracy destoryed what? | Jun 05 00:45 |
DaemonFC | of course I tolerate Muslims, in the same way you tolerate a bad head cold you can't get rid of | Jun 05 00:45 |
oiaohm | When both were OEM no piracy cp/m and dos were holding there own against each other. | Jun 05 00:45 |
balzac | DaemonFC: I'm not a coward. I'm willing to say openly that the cleric who called for Salman Rushdie's murder is a fool. | Jun 05 00:45 |
balzac | I say this as Paul Gaskin | Jun 05 00:45 |
yuhong | In fact, at first only the code in msdos.sys was licensed to OEMs. | Jun 05 00:45 |
yuhong | OEMs have to write IO.SYS. | Jun 05 00:46 |
balzac | But you sit there with your heated rhetoric, lashing out at ideological opponents and friends alike, from behind a pseudonym. | Jun 05 00:46 |
balzac | Daring to attack a venerable liberal and social visionary, RMS from behind your pseudonym | Jun 05 00:46 |
DaemonFC | it's not rhetoric | Jun 05 00:46 |
yuhong | It was not until PC compatibles became common that MS provided a packaged version to DOS to OEMs, that had io.sys. | Jun 05 00:46 |
DaemonFC | I know what those people do | Jun 05 00:46 |
balzac | you're a fool | Jun 05 00:46 |
yuhong | And not until DOS 5.0 that MS began to sell DOS in retail. | Jun 05 00:47 |
DaemonFC | the only Iranians I sympathize with are the ones that are stuck there and at risk of being murdered | Jun 05 00:47 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you're not a real liberal, you're a screecher | Jun 05 00:47 |
DaemonFC | like those gay teenagers | Jun 05 00:47 |
oiaohm | At the short time after MS provided generic io.sys. Bill Gates come out and said piracy was good for the IT world. | Jun 05 00:47 |
yuhong | And then only the upgrade version, retail full version had to wait until 6.0. | Jun 05 00:47 |
oiaohm | Major software piracy leads back to MS. | Jun 05 00:48 |
oiaohm | It was very effective for MS. | Jun 05 00:48 |
DaemonFC | the good part of Communism was where it outlawed religion | Jun 05 00:48 |
balzac | President Obama just named June "Gay Pride Month" | Jun 05 00:48 |
balzac | were you aware of that DaemonFC ? | Jun 05 00:48 |
DaemonFC | fuck him, he'll take all the free publicity | Jun 05 00:48 |
DaemonFC | then do nothing of substance | Jun 05 00:48 |
yuhong | I figured the trick now. | Jun 05 00:48 |
balzac | he doesn't want to have sex with you | Jun 05 00:49 |
balzac | DaemonFC: that has substance | Jun 05 00:49 |
yuhong | It has to do with piracy and lock-in. | Jun 05 00:49 |
DaemonFC | no, he's a politician, he'll pander | Jun 05 00:49 |
DaemonFC | but in the end it's how many votes it costs him to help us | Jun 05 00:49 |
DaemonFC | so he'll throw us under the bus and sign laws to hurt us | Jun 05 00:49 |
DaemonFC | like Clinton did with DOMA | Jun 05 00:49 |
balzac | DaemonFC: better to be a politician like Obama than a screeching coward attacking public names from behind an IRC nick. | Jun 05 00:49 |
DaemonFC | I say again, Clinton signed DOMA | Jun 05 00:50 |
oiaohm | Exactly yuhong MS was not selling versions of dos before 5.0 because they were depending on pirary to fill the gaps. | Jun 05 00:50 |
oiaohm | So effectively destroying there competition with a zero priced product yuhong. | Jun 05 00:50 |
DaemonFC | the Democrats are giving us "morale support" while at the same time joining the Republicans in doing us actual tangible harm | Jun 05 00:50 |
DaemonFC | Bush was better for the gay rights movement than Obama or Clinton | Jun 05 00:51 |
oiaohm | yuhong: MS operations still try to do the same things today. | Jun 05 00:51 |
DaemonFC | because he at least didn't get the chance to harm us | Jun 05 00:51 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 00:51 |
balzac | see, you're right-wing | Jun 05 00:51 |
DaemonFC | no | Jun 05 00:51 |
DaemonFC | the Democrats and Republicans are Coke and Pepsi | Jun 05 00:51 |
balzac | Bush was worse | Jun 05 00:51 |
DaemonFC | two versions of the same thing | Jun 05 00:51 |
yuhong | On DR-DOS, it began with DR having to write a DOS compatiblity layer on top of CCP/M-86. | Jun 05 00:51 |
yuhong | Which came from MP/M and MP/M-86, BTW. | Jun 05 00:52 |
DaemonFC | I doubt John McCain would have been any better or worse than Obama | Jun 05 00:52 |
balzac | he destabilized the middle east, leading to lots of murders of all kinds of vulnerable minorities, including gays | Jun 05 00:52 |
oiaohm | Yep basically to create competition yuhong. | Jun 05 00:52 |
DaemonFC | Obama is a sellout to big business and a false friend of the gay/lesbian community | Jun 05 00:52 |
DaemonFC | just because McCain was bad does not automatically make Obama better | Jun 05 00:53 |
oiaohm | Dr-dos did all the right things and basically got screwed. | Jun 05 00:53 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you're an angstivist | Jun 05 00:53 |
DaemonFC | Obama is just another Republicrat | Jun 05 00:53 |
DaemonFC | in a long long line | Jun 05 00:53 |
balzac | One good artist can do a thousand times more than 1000 angstivists | Jun 05 00:53 |
DaemonFC | he is an artist | Jun 05 00:54 |
DaemonFC | a bullshit artist | Jun 05 00:54 |
DaemonFC | it takes skill to fuck so many people over and convince them all to like you | Jun 05 00:54 |
balzac | Freddie Mercury's song plays in Yankee Stadium | Jun 05 00:54 |
yuhong | Early versions of DR-DOS was basically a single user version of what was by then called Concurrent DOS with CP/M-86 compatiblity removed. | Jun 05 00:54 |
DaemonFC | Bush was not charismatic, that's the only real difference | Jun 05 00:54 |
balzac | your lonely angstivist screeching is lost into the void, irrelevant | Jun 05 00:55 |
DaemonFC | Obama came in and before his 2nd full month in office, he increased the national debt by over 33% | Jun 05 00:55 |
DaemonFC | how is this better? | Jun 05 00:55 |
oiaohm | yuhong: Remember MSDOS is QDOS what is basically a dirty clone of CP/M-86 | Jun 05 00:55 |
balzac | right wing talking point | Jun 05 00:55 |
DaemonFC | the stimulus has had no effect at all on the economy | Jun 05 00:55 |
DaemonFC | it contained a cash handout for everyone on Social Security | Jun 05 00:55 |
yuhong | Yep, MS bought it from SCP. | Jun 05 00:55 |
balzac | DaemonFC: just go and join the Republican party and embrace proprietary software, please. | Jun 05 00:55 |
DaemonFC | because giving people free money worked for Bush in 2008 right? | Jun 05 00:55 |
oiaohm | yuhong: histroy has repeated. MS did to CP/M-86 that Linux did to Unix. | Jun 05 00:56 |
DaemonFC | no? it didn't? | Jun 05 00:56 |
DaemonFC | Obama is operating off the same playbooks as Bush and Clinton | Jun 05 00:56 |
DaemonFC | the only thing that ever changes is the lip service | Jun 05 00:56 |
schestowitz | The pro-sw pats lobbying is spamming us now: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/27/software-patents-in-the-united-states/#comments | Jun 05 00:56 |
oiaohm | CP/M-86 was a nice OS for its day. | Jun 05 00:57 |
balzac | DaemonFC: screeching false accusations from behind anonymity is without merit. | Jun 05 00:57 |
DaemonFC | I'd really just be happy if Obama did one of two things Balzac 1. Help those he claims to support. or 2. At least get the hell out of the way and not make it worse | Jun 05 00:57 |
balzac | DaemonFC: out of the way of a coward who won't even put his own name to his words? | Jun 05 00:58 |
DaemonFC | all I'm asking is that he put up or shut up | Jun 05 00:58 |
balzac | you put up or shut up | Jun 05 00:58 |
balzac | I'd ban you if I were an op | Jun 05 00:58 |
DaemonFC | Obama is lip service to the gay community | Jun 05 00:58 |
balzac | nope | Jun 05 00:58 |
DaemonFC | and he will probably not be getting my vote in 2012 unless he starts putting some action to back up his promises | Jun 05 00:58 |
balzac | you wish he gave you 'lip-service' | Jun 05 00:59 |
balzac | but instead, June is "Gay Pride Month" | Jun 05 00:59 |
DaemonFC | I voted for him in 2008 because what he was saying sounded good | Jun 05 00:59 |
balzac | not a week, but a whole month like "Black History Month" | Jun 05 00:59 |
DaemonFC | but it's obvious now he's a poser | Jun 05 00:59 |
balzac | nope, it's not obvious at all | Jun 05 00:59 |
balzac | There's plenty of time yet for more changes | Jun 05 01:00 |
balzac | What about torture? | Jun 05 01:00 |
DaemonFC | he better get with the program because there's a lot of people that understand that he's kissing ass with our enembies and not fullsilling any of his campaign promises | Jun 05 01:00 |
DaemonFC | to his core supporters | Jun 05 01:00 |
DaemonFC | including myself | Jun 05 01:00 |
balzac | "our enemies" | Jun 05 01:00 |
DaemonFC | *enemies | Jun 05 01:00 |
balzac | your enemies are not necessarily President Obama's enemies, and not mine either | Jun 05 01:00 |
DaemonFC | yes, the Taliban and Hamas, terrorist organizations that want the death of all Israelis | Jun 05 01:01 |
balzac | I'm an atheist who supports 100% respect for individual civil liberties of gays as well as everyone else | Jun 05 01:01 |
DaemonFC | and anyone they percieve as non muslim or "Less" muslim | Jun 05 01:01 |
balzac | but you go and smear the names of great and historical men, while not putting your own name on it | Jun 05 01:01 |
yuhong | What is interesting is that even Alpha NT had support for 16-bit Windows and DOS apps. | Jun 05 01:02 |
DaemonFC | "I hereby declare Gay Rights Month while I work to maintain the status quo, while the army is kicking out 2,5000 of them per month" | Jun 05 01:02 |
DaemonFC | yay Obama! | Jun 05 01:02 |
DaemonFC | *2,500 | Jun 05 01:02 |
balzac | I'd have taken a clearer stance than Obama on just about every issue, but I didn't get elected. | Jun 05 01:02 |
balzac | I'm not going to win even if I run for City Council, much less president. | Jun 05 01:03 |
DaemonFC | he's like Bill Clinton and Al Gore, who slashed funding for NASA but showed up for all the photo ops | Jun 05 01:03 |
DaemonFC | that's how Obama is regarding gay rights | Jun 05 01:03 |
balzac | DaemonFC: your turd friend Bush has made things very difficult. | Jun 05 01:03 |
balzac | you're not representing gay people, you're representing gay angstivists who hide behind pseudonyms | Jun 05 01:03 |
balzac | Barney Frank is out and very public | Jun 05 01:04 |
balzac | he is representing, not you. | Jun 05 01:04 |
balzac | Also, activists can't claim to be more important than those who are just openly gay, yet mind their own business. | Jun 05 01:05 |
DaemonFC | balzac: Name one tangible benefit Obama has given to the gay community | Jun 05 01:05 |
DaemonFC | barring lip service | Jun 05 01:05 |
DaemonFC | Telol me why he's more of an asset than George W. Bush | Jun 05 01:06 |
DaemonFC | *tell | Jun 05 01:06 |
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DaemonFC | in this regard | Jun 05 01:06 |
DaemonFC | go ahead | Jun 05 01:06 |
DaemonFC | anything | Jun 05 01:06 |
balzac | name one tangible thing he's done for any constituency, except for expell the fear and restore confidence in government | Jun 05 01:06 |
balzac | he's dissappointing everyone so far | Jun 05 01:06 |
DaemonFC | has he stopped Don't Ask Don't Tell? Or did that guy that came out on national TV this month NOT just get kicked out of the army? | Jun 05 01:06 |
DaemonFC | please tell me where that was all over the news and I jsut dreamed it up | Jun 05 01:07 |
balzac | israel, palestine, christian fundies, gays, women, etc. | Jun 05 01:07 |
balzac | who has not yet been disappointed? | Jun 05 01:07 |
mtnd3w | hi all | Jun 05 01:07 |
DaemonFC | Christian fundies would like him for being totally useless to gay rights groups | Jun 05 01:07 |
DaemonFC | except he kisses the Taliban's collective ass | Jun 05 01:07 |
DaemonFC | Obama is the albatross/white elephant of gay rights groups | Jun 05 01:08 |
DaemonFC | true politician playing both sides down the middle | Jun 05 01:09 |
balzac | DaemonFC: this is #boycottnovell, not #boycott-everyone-who-isnt-a-gay-anti-palestine-republican | Jun 05 01:10 |
DaemonFC | I am not a Republican | Jun 05 01:10 |
balzac | pretty close, I'd say | Jun 05 01:10 |
balzac | I'd rather you were | Jun 05 01:11 |
DaemonFC | Why? Because the Democrats are almost as disgusting? | Jun 05 01:11 |
DaemonFC | Because you are fooling yourself if you think they aren't? | Jun 05 01:11 |
balzac | To the extent they coddle religious funamentalists, they're both revolting | Jun 05 01:11 |
DaemonFC | my point exactly | Jun 05 01:12 |
DaemonFC | glad you agree | Jun 05 01:12 |
balzac | but some people are screeching angstivists, while others are enduring, non-compromising life-stylists | Jun 05 01:12 |
DaemonFC | I'll vote for the candidate | Jun 05 01:12 |
DaemonFC | I don't consider myself loyal to either party | Jun 05 01:13 |
balzac | I support your individual civil liberties 100% and I'm straight, but that's because I'm intellectually honest and a non-superstitious atheist. | Jun 05 01:13 |
balzac | Well, I've seen you lash out at a true liberal, completely misrepresenting his views. | Jun 05 01:13 |
balzac | two, really | Jun 05 01:13 |
neighborlee | I m sorry but I dont see obama as coddling anyone or anything..he's very clear on h is objectives..he is trying his best to be a uniter, not a divider | Jun 05 01:13 |
balzac | RMS is a proven liberal, President Obama is looking pretty good too | Jun 05 01:13 |
DaemonFC | I've voted for some Republicansm not many but a few | Jun 05 01:13 |
balzac | and your attacks on RMS have been without merit | Jun 05 01:14 |
balzac | I've never voted for Republican | Jun 05 01:14 |
balzac | We're different that way | Jun 05 01:14 |
DaemonFC | I voted for Senator Lugar after he said he was not going to vote for that constitutional marriage discrimination amendment | Jun 05 01:14 |
DaemonFC | well, Democrats in Congress have typically only been good for one thing | Jun 05 01:15 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you could do a lot more than attack good liberals from behind a pseudonym | Jun 05 01:15 |
DaemonFC | stalling for time while we work our way through the courts | Jun 05 01:15 |
DaemonFC | well, I'm just not all that sure about Obama for a number of alarming things he's done | Jun 05 01:16 |
neighborlee | like what | Jun 05 01:16 |
DaemonFC | "palling around" with RIAA/MPAA | Jun 05 01:16 |
balzac | that's because you're like chicken-little, screeching about the sky falling | Jun 05 01:16 |
DaemonFC | appointing Microsoft executives to his cabinet | Jun 05 01:17 |
neighborlee | in what capacity | Jun 05 01:17 |
neighborlee | but i agree, likely that person is pure evil. | Jun 05 01:17 |
DaemonFC | no, he really has said and done a lot of things that are questionable at best and a downright conflict of interest at their worst | Jun 05 01:17 |
balzac | DaemonFC: more information, less opinion, please | Jun 05 01:18 |
DaemonFC | like having Joe Biden tell the MPAA, promise them, that they "will like" his new "Copyright Czar" | Jun 05 01:18 |
DaemonFC | at an MPAA luncheon that Biden attended | Jun 05 01:18 |
*neighborlee hopes his sarcasm was evident..I dont believe M$ is evil, just misdirected.. | Jun 05 01:18 | |
DaemonFC | Microsoft is no more or less intrinsically evil than any company that wants to make money | Jun 05 01:19 |
DaemonFC | the problem is their size and resources | Jun 05 01:19 |
neighborlee | well welcome to capaitalism...like or not..its our CURRENT system.. | Jun 05 01:19 |
DaemonFC | and it's not good when they have the ear of the president | Jun 05 01:19 |
oiaohm | schestowitz: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/27/software-patents-in-the-united-states/comment-page-1/#comment-64930 read my answer there to the patent problem. Patent problem is through the complete patent system. | Jun 05 01:19 |
balzac | DaemonFC: what do you think of "Perez Hilton" outing other gays, who weren't even really in the closet? | Jun 05 01:19 |
oiaohm | DaemonFC: MS is not the biggest companies out there. | Jun 05 01:20 |
DaemonFC | not helpful | Jun 05 01:20 |
oiaohm | So there size and resources is not a factor. | Jun 05 01:20 |
oiaohm | there are others with more who treat market better. | Jun 05 01:20 |
DaemonFC | by becoming that kind of a figure Perez Hilton has become kind of like our very own Ann Coulter | Jun 05 01:20 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, just seen it | Jun 05 01:20 |
schestowitz | I replied too | Jun 05 01:20 |
DaemonFC | a counterproductive embarassment | Jun 05 01:20 |
DaemonFC | who is occasionally funny to gawk at | Jun 05 01:20 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC,hey..companies have the right to make money..and our right to advance alternatives ..free choice and M$ knows is losing ground..c'est la vie. | Jun 05 01:21 |
balzac | well, at least he's putting his own name on it. | Jun 05 01:21 |
oiaohm | Lot of what MS does is technically illegal and the regulators just run a blind eye to it. | Jun 05 01:21 |
neighborlee | ann coulter=hate..real shame. | Jun 05 01:21 |
DaemonFC | Well, as long as you have a right to refuse it and a reasonable expectation of access to a competing product | Jun 05 01:21 |
balzac | yeah, that's probably not fair to say of Perez Hilton | Jun 05 01:21 |
DaemonFC | I don't see why they can't sell it | Jun 05 01:22 |
balzac | Anne Coulter is a real sicki | Jun 05 01:22 |
oiaohm | If I decided to drop 1 million tones of food on the USA poor to make my product popular I would be killed by USA law. | Jun 05 01:22 |
balzac | what has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter? | Jun 05 01:22 |
DaemonFC | of course that's in the ideal situation | Jun 05 01:22 |
oiaohm | MS walks up and does the software equal. Nothing happens DaemonFC. | Jun 05 01:22 |
balzac | I think you're probably exaggerating again, DaemonFC | Jun 05 01:22 |
oiaohm | We have regulators asleep. | Jun 05 01:22 |
DaemonFC | if MS Office and OpenOffice both had the same format support and were competing strictly on merit and user preference, for example | Jun 05 01:22 |
DaemonFC | the problem of course is that this is not what is happening | Jun 05 01:23 |
balzac | Perez Hilton is quite annoying, but probably much more responsible in how he treats others reputations than you are. | Jun 05 01:23 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, yes its starting | Jun 05 01:23 |
balzac | woops, you failed to answer | Jun 05 01:23 |
balzac | what has Perez Hilton said to equal the depravity of Anne Coulter? | Jun 05 01:23 |
DaemonFC | well, calling attention to other peoples sexuality in a homophobic culture | Jun 05 01:23 |
oiaohm | KOffice and Openoffice will be facing each other on there merits. | Jun 05 01:23 |
DaemonFC | that's pretty pathetic | Jun 05 01:24 |
oiaohm | So there will be compeition even if MS does not join. | Jun 05 01:24 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, odt support IN wordpad, IN windows 7 | Jun 05 01:24 |
oiaohm | Its why OpenOffice has had to get faster. | Jun 05 01:24 |
balzac | that's not nearly as outrageous as Anne Coulter's worst sayings | Jun 05 01:24 |
neighborlee | balzac, agreed,,she is really nasty | Jun 05 01:24 |
balzac | Anne Coulter is one of the people who make life dangerous for gays among other minorities | Jun 05 01:24 |
DaemonFC | yes, but Ann Coulter's damage is mitigated by the sheer stupidity of what she says | Jun 05 01:24 |
DaemonFC | and she has an adam's apple | Jun 05 01:24 |
oiaohm | Its like the Gnome vs KDE is grew a lot of development for the problems it caused. | Jun 05 01:24 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 01:24 |
neighborlee | balzac, not reallly | Jun 05 01:24 |
balzac | "Perez Hilton" was being an irresponsible prick, but he's no Anne Coulter. He's just a noisy angstivist, but one who puts his own name on it. | Jun 05 01:25 |
neighborlee | balzac, its not anything SHE does..its the mood of those around her..that stoop to her level and agree WITH her....thats how things happen..people stress their opnions when they know there is an 'audience' | Jun 05 01:25 |
neighborlee | its somettimes takes ages,,years for certain rights to come online..because the 'mood' of the populus is against it...witch trials anyone ? ;)) | Jun 05 01:26 |
balzac | Like the right to have a divorce | Jun 05 01:27 |
neighborlee | that too | Jun 05 01:27 |
balzac | or a child out of wedlock | Jun 05 01:27 |
balzac | or more than one spouse | Jun 05 01:27 |
neighborlee | well ick to that one anyway | Jun 05 01:27 |
balzac | It is ironic to see gays and mormons at each others' throats | Jun 05 01:27 |
neighborlee | to each his own..I never have understgood how multiple spouses coud end in anything but bitterness and jealousy | Jun 05 01:27 |
neighborlee | balzac, true that | Jun 05 01:28 |
balzac | to each his own | Jun 05 01:28 |
DaemonFC | Yeah, they came to my door | Jun 05 01:28 |
balzac | marraige rights for gays and marraige rights for mormons are very similar | Jun 05 01:28 |
DaemonFC | I told them that they had until I got back to leave, before I shot them as intruders on my property | Jun 05 01:28 |
neighborlee | well I truly believe in ,,do as thou will, thou it harm none | Jun 05 01:28 |
balzac | both are not accepted by the mainstream, both are vying for the right to marry, yet critical of the other | Jun 05 01:28 |
neighborlee | mormons can't marry, what was that ? ;0-- | Jun 05 01:29 |
balzac | DaemonFC: that's pretty ugly of you. | Jun 05 01:29 |
DaemonFC | I've had about all I'm going to take of them | Jun 05 01:29 |
DaemonFC | I'm not going to have them bring it to me in person | Jun 05 01:30 |
oiaohm | schestowitz: should really do a artical on why the complete patent system is busted. | Jun 05 01:30 |
balzac | well, i hope it was an empty threat, because shooting "intruders" who have not brought weapons, who've announced their presence in broad daylight, and who hoped to pursuade you with a conversation would be a criminal act. | Jun 05 01:30 |
balzac | DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry? | Jun 05 01:31 |
schestowitz | What Does Microsoft Want From Spain? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-wants-spain/ > | Jun 05 01:31 |
DaemonFC | I'm against their entire organization | Jun 05 01:31 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: many articles exist | Jun 05 01:31 |
balzac | DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry? | Jun 05 01:31 |
schestowitz | I will do another, thanks | Jun 05 01:31 |
balzac | simple question | Jun 05 01:31 |
DaemonFC | in what sense? | Jun 05 01:31 |
DaemonFC | In that they deny to others what they demand for themselves? | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | in that case yes I do opposer their right to marry | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | until such time as I have the same right | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 01:32 |
balzac | DaemonFC: are you against their right to marry? (very simple question. I did not attach your conditional.) | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | *oppose | Jun 05 01:32 |
balzac | direct, simple question. | Jun 05 01:32 |
balzac | no conditional. | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | until such time as everyone has the right | Jun 05 01:32 |
DaemonFC | yes | Jun 05 01:32 |
balzac | you sound like a partisan in the I/P dispute | Jun 05 01:33 |
DaemonFC | otherwise we just have a caste system | Jun 05 01:33 |
balzac | see, mutually-assured oppression | Jun 05 01:33 |
balzac | DaemonFC: you should support their right to marry unconditionally | Jun 05 01:33 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, well at least thats honest..I commend you for that position..similar to brad pit etal | Jun 05 01:33 |
balzac | and they should support your right to marry, unconditionally | Jun 05 01:33 |
balzac | but you're a very subjective type | Jun 05 01:33 |
DaemonFC | then the fucking Scientologists came to my door and asked if I was depressed | Jun 05 01:34 |
neighborlee | he's ,,just frustrated ;) | Jun 05 01:34 |
balzac | you suffer a kind of myopia | Jun 05 01:34 |
DaemonFC | I told them I was going to put a depression in their skulls ifthey didn't get the hell out | Jun 05 01:34 |
balzac | DaemonFC: once again, very ugly | Jun 05 01:34 |
balzac | there's a common denominator here - overt hostility | Jun 05 01:35 |
neighborlee | however having said that..yes we cant' deny rights to those due to our own circumstances..we know our day will come, until then we dont want to lower ourselves into the sewer, along with them. | Jun 05 01:35 |
balzac | I've sat down at a scientologists table in a subway station in NYC and amused myself | Jun 05 01:35 |
balzac | I held the conductors of their "e-meter" | Jun 05 01:35 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, we lift ourselves up in compassion, and before you know it, everyone feels similarly...doesnt' hurt to fight for our rights though maintaing civil discourse never hoit :)) < no one perfect though> | Jun 05 01:35 |
balzac | and it was amusing to me | Jun 05 01:35 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 05 01:36 |
balzac | but I didn't get foul-tempered, nor did I compromise even a little on my beliefs. | Jun 05 01:36 |
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DaemonFC | Scientology is a cult that basically exists to extract all of its victims money | Jun 05 01:36 |
DaemonFC | then throw them away | Jun 05 01:37 |
DaemonFC | or turn them into slave laborers | Jun 05 01:37 |
balzac | not unlike some of the older, larger religions | Jun 05 01:37 |
balzac | gee, sounds like a very familiar recipe | Jun 05 01:37 |
DaemonFC | no, the others typically bleed you for a small recurring amount | Jun 05 01:37 |
DaemonFC | the Scientologists are more smash and grab | Jun 05 01:37 |
balzac | well, they don't have the same "economy of scale" that the more established "religions" enjoy | Jun 05 01:38 |
balzac | give them time and they'll take less from a lot more people | Jun 05 01:38 |
balzac | but I'd rather see people be rational | Jun 05 01:38 |
ThistleWeb | the longer the scam, the more people will see the flaws and start to think about them | Jun 05 01:38 |
DaemonFC | The German government investigated Windows 2000 for a possible backdoor | Jun 05 01:40 |
DaemonFC | after findout out that the Scientologists wrote Defrag.exe | Jun 05 01:40 |
DaemonFC | *finding out | Jun 05 01:40 |
ThistleWeb | DaemonFC, only one? | Jun 05 01:40 |
DaemonFC | The Germans have the good sense to not do any business with dangerous cults | Jun 05 01:41 |
balzac | except for the ones over 1000 years old, perhaps? | Jun 05 01:41 |
balzac | suddenly, dangerous cults are ok after 1000 years of growth and 1,000,000,000 faithful | Jun 05 01:41 |
balzac | as if McDonalds is suddenly healthy after 1B served | Jun 05 01:42 |
ThistleWeb | McDonalds may be healthy but I question the health of their loyal customers | Jun 05 01:42 |
balzac | DaemonFC: seems like you prefer to keep the focus of your angstivism within a myopic scope, or else you'd be forced to become more philosophical about things. | Jun 05 01:43 |
balzac | none of the problems which frustrate you the most will be solved within your lifetime | Jun 05 01:45 |
balzac | That is one of the traits of an angstivist - spinning your wheels furiously about things which aren't likely to change | Jun 05 01:46 |
balzac | at least you should enjoy your life's work if it's going to be entirely existential in its nature | Jun 05 01:47 |
mtnd3w | do you guys think as GNU/Linux grows, there will be a lot of forces trying to pull it apart? | Jun 05 01:47 |
balzac | that means have a good mood | Jun 05 01:47 |
neighborlee | mtnd3w, you cant' pull apart a house with a good foundation | Jun 05 01:47 |
neighborlee | ymmv | Jun 05 01:47 |
balzac | mtnd3w: yes | Jun 05 01:47 |
balzac | there already are, and it is loosely knit together | Jun 05 01:48 |
ThistleWeb | mtnd3w, there already are, Novell / Microsoft & Mono is only a start | Jun 05 01:48 |
mtnd3w | neighborlee: i hope not | Jun 05 01:48 |
balzac | also there is Android, (Linux without GNU) | Jun 05 01:48 |
mtnd3w | ThistleWeb: yes, thats one of the signs it seems like | Jun 05 01:48 |
ThistleWeb | glad to see the FAT / TomTom suit causing more distros to be sceptical about Mono | Jun 05 01:48 |
neighborlee | mtnd3w, :)but that foundation takes work..and sometimes reminders from the community whats important, and why | Jun 05 01:48 |
neighborlee | ThistleWeb, ditto | Jun 05 01:49 |
DaemonFC | pull it apart? There's hundreds of different distros already | Jun 05 01:49 |
DaemonFC | I'd say stupid and pointless forks are a big problem | Jun 05 01:49 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, yes and in that regard..it pulls itself apart... | Jun 05 01:49 |
neighborlee | Ive said that for years-- | Jun 05 01:49 |
neighborlee | as have many others | Jun 05 01:49 |
ThistleWeb | if peeps want it, then cool but like mp3 codecs, legally its safer to not ship them and give an option to get them post install if the user wants them | Jun 05 01:50 |
DaemonFC | no matter what you choose, there's always a few packages that are only made for the other one | Jun 05 01:50 |
oiaohm | Linux is already ripped into bits mtnd3w | Jun 05 01:50 |
neighborlee | ThistleWeb, totally agreed..ogg is preferrable..but mp3 installer if need be yes | Jun 05 01:50 |
DaemonFC | but that's why a lot of people are unwillingly being coerced into using Ubuntu | Jun 05 01:50 |
DaemonFC | if there's going to be a package made for one distro, it'll be theirs | Jun 05 01:51 |
oiaohm | There are two forces in the Open Source world. The merging force and the dividing force. | Jun 05 01:51 |
mtnd3w | oiaohm: i came across the thought after reading the DRM kernel article posted here | Jun 05 01:51 |
oiaohm | Once divided so far maintaining becomes too hard. | Jun 05 01:51 |
oiaohm | So merging force appears. | Jun 05 01:51 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, there are heroes amoungst us..though they dont want the label, its true nonetheless..we can each play a role in freedom, its our choice. | Jun 05 01:51 |
oiaohm | Cycle of dividing and merging repeats over and over again in the Open source world. | Jun 05 01:52 |
mtnd3w | neighborlee: this is why understanding free software is very important i guess | Jun 05 01:52 |
neighborlee | it is yes | Jun 05 01:52 |
ThistleWeb | a large part of the issue is that for ages, people haven't known anything other than windows | Jun 05 01:52 |
oiaohm | Taking on open standards is one of the major merging forces. | Jun 05 01:52 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, too much so...6months release cycle is way too often imho | Jun 05 01:52 |
ThistleWeb | the more time goes by, the more people see there ARE other PCs | Jun 05 01:52 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, and fedora being willling to ' wait' until it 'ready' is a goood indicator maybe they finally get that | Jun 05 01:53 |
ThistleWeb | that dent is something microsoft dont want to grow | Jun 05 01:53 |
ThistleWeb | but it will, specially in netbooks | Jun 05 01:53 |
neighborlee | yo u can NOT have SOLID, QA after just 6 lousy months..its not vialbe | Jun 05 01:53 |
neighborlee | viable | Jun 05 01:53 |
DaemonFC | Fedora has always been fairly uncaring as to whether it's "ready" | Jun 05 01:53 |
neighborlee | more so latley | Jun 05 01:53 |
DaemonFC | maybe the sudden influx of users have changed them | Jun 05 01:53 |
oiaohm | Linux kernel maintains solid QA on a 3 month cycle. Design says how fast you can have releases and keep quality. | Jun 05 01:54 |
ThistleWeb | I've thought for a while that 6mth is a tad short, perhaps the quality would be better on 8mth | Jun 05 01:54 |
ThistleWeb | 9mth* | Jun 05 01:54 |
neighborlee | not unlike blizzard entertainment..maybe fedoa will b ecome better and better willing to wait until its really 'ready' ;)) | Jun 05 01:54 |
oiaohm | Biggest limit to solid QA is the lack of means in distributions to install more than 1 version of a program. | Jun 05 01:54 |
ThistleWeb | but then, if you want a solid, stable, well tested distro you have Debian or CentOS | Jun 05 01:54 |
oiaohm | So users can try beta versions and report problems without having everything beta. | Jun 05 01:55 |
neighborlee | ThistleWeb, at leat | Jun 05 01:55 |
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ThistleWeb | yep | Jun 05 01:55 |
neighborlee | I mean, it doessn't hurt windows does it, that it releases ONCE every few years ? | Jun 05 01:55 |
oiaohm | Both are you are looking at the problem wrong. | Jun 05 01:55 |
ThistleWeb | choice is one of the values of FOSS | Jun 05 01:55 |
oiaohm | Debian runs into trouble with items like clamav. | Jun 05 01:55 |
neighborlee | vista not withstanding LOL | Jun 05 01:55 |
DaemonFC | the Iranian election is refreshingly different | Jun 05 01:55 |
oiaohm | They are many things for secuirty you must update. | Jun 05 01:55 |
DaemonFC | Ahmadinejad may get replaced with a much more moderate candidate | Jun 05 01:56 |
oiaohm | So you do need a fast QA system. | Jun 05 01:56 |
oiaohm | MS is really doing releases more than once every few years. | Jun 05 01:56 |
neighborlee | if that is so true.explain why linux releases have been SO horrible | Jun 05 01:56 |
neighborlee | all of them | Jun 05 01:56 |
neighborlee | ubuntu, mandriva, fedora..all of them shabby | Jun 05 01:56 |
oiaohm | The problem is in packaging. | Jun 05 01:56 |
oiaohm | Not the release time. | Jun 05 01:57 |
neighborlee | elaborate please | Jun 05 01:57 |
oiaohm | If you could stay with older versions of programs like old version of X11 that just happend to work. yet have everything else new. That would prevent what happen with ubuntu and intel cards. | Jun 05 01:57 |
ThistleWeb | one big difference I see with Windows compared to FOSS or Linux is that when someone says "the new version has .... feature, just upgrade" in Windows that means you need to shell out more cash, so the advice could be a sales drone pretending to be support. In FOSS / Linux it tends to be free to upgrade | Jun 05 01:58 |
neighborlee | nasty intel yes in ubuntu...that was horrid | Jun 05 01:58 |
oiaohm | Because some cards worked with the old X11 and some worked with the new. | Jun 05 01:58 |
oiaohm | So the new distrobution hurt like hell. | Jun 05 01:58 |
oiaohm | There are times where just have 1 package of something is not suitable. | Jun 05 01:58 |
neighborlee | ThistleWeb, yes..foss is truly amazing in that its the great e qualizer | Jun 05 01:58 |
oiaohm | Allowing multiable allows rolling QA | Jun 05 01:58 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, how was that missed though ? | Jun 05 01:59 |
ThistleWeb | proprietary software tends to only give new features if it can monetise them, or hold them back as carrots to buy the new version | Jun 05 01:59 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, blame on shoddy qa, or a package where they just forgot to include all cards ,,or what | Jun 05 01:59 |
neighborlee | both ? | Jun 05 01:59 |
oiaohm | Most update sysems in distributions are designed to update to latest. | Jun 05 01:59 |
oiaohm | Even when it not suitable. | Jun 05 01:59 |
neighborlee | of course | Jun 05 02:00 |
oiaohm | Neither X11 server was exactly shoddy neighborlee. | Jun 05 02:00 |
neighborlee | well either way the user suffered | Jun 05 02:00 |
neighborlee | as you hear it time and time again, on new linux releases | Jun 05 02:00 |
ThistleWeb | proprietary software also tends to be built to make money, which means feature bloat as carrots to get you to buy something you already have | Jun 05 02:00 |
oiaohm | Users should not have suffered. | Jun 05 02:00 |
neighborlee | and,,linux imho deserves better..people deseve better | Jun 05 02:00 |
oiaohm | would it been a issue if users could have chosen to use the old version when the new version did not work for them. | Jun 05 02:01 |
neighborlee | the point is.. | Jun 05 02:01 |
oiaohm | Even with the best QA you are not going to find every bug. | Jun 05 02:01 |
neighborlee | the pereption,,that linux doesn't work | Jun 05 02:01 |
neighborlee | regardless of how it got there.. | Jun 05 02:01 |
oiaohm | Its just impossiable. | Jun 05 02:01 |
oiaohm | So what is the next best thing. | Jun 05 02:02 |
yuhong | From http://oreilly.com/news/amazon_patents.html: | Jun 05 02:02 |
yuhong | "That business method and software patents should have a much shorter lifespan than the current 17 years -- I would propose 3 to 5 years. " | Jun 05 02:02 |
oiaohm | Have a plan b for when a problem slips past. | Jun 05 02:02 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, yes..some clever script to sense such things and fallback() | Jun 05 02:02 |
oiaohm | That is where distribution are failing people neighborlee. There is no plan b. | Jun 05 02:02 |
oiaohm | Take MS with service packs. | Jun 05 02:02 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, mandriva had..something sorta similar..not perfect but it did effectively work | Jun 05 02:03 |
schestowitz | What the Corrosive Relationship Between Microsoft and Cisco Means to GNU/Linux < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-and-cisco-tensions/ > | Jun 05 02:03 |
schestowitz | oiaohm will like it | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | There is a way to uninstall a service pack if it really breaks it. | Jun 05 02:03 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, agreed,,,about no plan B | Jun 05 02:03 |
neighborlee | overall anyway | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | So you can drop back. | Jun 05 02:03 |
neighborlee | exactly | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | If you have to. | Jun 05 02:03 |
neighborlee | restore points | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | People are looking in the wrong place. | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | They are saying QA is failing. | Jun 05 02:03 |
yuhong | The 1-click patent reexam was at least 7 years after the patent was granted, probably more. | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | Its not. | Jun 05 02:03 |
oiaohm | QA is working as good as QA does. | Jun 05 02:03 |
neighborlee | yes and no.I cant completey agree | Jun 05 02:04 |
neighborlee | sometimes..they is just TOO much choice.. | Jun 05 02:04 |
neighborlee | it confuses people | Jun 05 02:04 |
oiaohm | QA will always fail. | Jun 05 02:04 |
yuhong | http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/16/1229242 | Jun 05 02:04 |
oiaohm | You can bet on it. | Jun 05 02:04 |
neighborlee | oiaohm, at some point,it certainy willl, atm anyway :) | Jun 05 02:04 |
yuhong | Anyone paying attension. | Jun 05 02:04 |
neighborlee | they/there | Jun 05 02:04 |
yuhong | If this reform was done, the reexam would not have existed. | Jun 05 02:05 |
yuhong | I was meaning to mention it for a while. | Jun 05 02:05 |
oiaohm | Basically distributions need to grow up. They have to provide a way to run new with old. | Jun 05 02:05 |
ThistleWeb | dont BSD do that? where lib files for each app are separate? | Jun 05 02:06 |
oiaohm | So that people are not effected by QA failures. | Jun 05 02:06 |
yuhong | No one is interested? | Jun 05 02:07 |
neonfloss | dont take this in the wrong way, but I wonder how much could be accomplished if all the talking and passion in this channel could be traded in for something.. | Jun 05 02:07 |
ThistleWeb | so if an updated lib file on one app breaks another in Linux, both are running their own lib files in BSD | Jun 05 02:07 |
oiaohm | ThistleWeb: it something bsd has had right for a while. | Jun 05 02:07 |
oiaohm | Linux users need to start demarding it. | Jun 05 02:08 |
ThistleWeb | for some reason ports is springing to mind | Jun 05 02:08 |
ThistleWeb | I tried FreeBSD once ages ago but never got it installed right | Jun 05 02:08 |
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oiaohm | FreeBSD good packaging design poor hardware support on adverage. | Jun 05 02:09 |
ThistleWeb | I thought the FreeBSD installer was hella complicated | Jun 05 02:09 |
oiaohm | Yep that too. | Jun 05 02:09 |
ThistleWeb | but then, this was a while back and I'm much more naturalised to Linux now, so maybe I'd have a different view now | Jun 05 02:10 |
ThistleWeb | or maybe FreeBSD wasn'yt the best choice for me at the time | Jun 05 02:10 |
oiaohm | Its so simple to look at the wrong cause of failure. | Jun 05 02:10 |
oiaohm | Most linux's have good installers. | Jun 05 02:10 |
oiaohm | Its something they got right lot sooner than the BSD's some of the BSDs are still trying to sort it out. | Jun 05 02:11 |
DaemonFC | http://www.schooner.com/~loverso/no-ads/ | Jun 05 02:11 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 05 02:11 |
DaemonFC | it works too | Jun 05 02:11 |
DaemonFC | well, I thought it did | Jun 05 02:26 |
DaemonFC | it has some issues | Jun 05 02:26 |
schestowitz | “ODF is Going to Be National Standard for Document[s] in Vietnam Too” < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/odf-and-vietnam/ > | Jun 05 02:30 |
schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | "It is most difficult to make correct decisions when it comes to the stock | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | market, but I guessed right (for the time being). | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | In March of this year, I reinvested 50% of the money I had parked when I | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | withdrew from Wall Street back in July of 2008. | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | In April I invested the other 50% because I felt the Economic Stimulus | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | money that was to be sent to taxpayers and retired people in May would boost | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | the economy. | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | Whether that premise was the reason the Dow Jones average started to ascend | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | or not, whatever, I am up 20% in a short span and that’s fantastic. | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | The only truth about the market is it does not respond to logic or what we | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | see in the news; rather, it is contrarian and seems to have a mind of its | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | own. | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | " | Jun 05 02:32 |
schestowitz | Obama made things worse by worsening the deficit. Wait and watch... | Jun 05 02:32 |
ThistleWeb | I wonder which government is going to charge Microsoft with attempted fraud over Microsoft lobbyists lying to politicians to get a resign of a Microsoft contract when FOSS is on the table | Jun 05 02:35 |
ThistleWeb | re-sign* | Jun 05 02:35 |
ThistleWeb | whether thats windows or office | Jun 05 02:36 |
oiaohm | As ODF numbers grow pressure on MS to support it also grows. | Jun 05 02:37 |
ThistleWeb | whether it's patent FUD, odf FUD, TOC FUD or any other type of FUD | Jun 05 02:37 |
ThistleWeb | it's one thing to be selective about where you focus, its something else to outright lie | Jun 05 02:38 |
ThistleWeb | if you knowingly use a skewed report to spin your sales pitch, you're knowingly lying | Jun 05 02:38 |
ThistleWeb | you could also charge Microsoft with endangering national security when the military PCs can get easily infected | Jun 05 02:40 |
DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY | Jun 05 02:44 |
DaemonFC | Obama's speech in Cairo | Jun 05 02:44 |
tessier | schestowitz: Nice | Jun 05 02:48 |
schestowitz | Vietnam? | Jun 05 02:48 |
tessier | Yes | Jun 05 02:48 |
tessier | I think I might know that person... | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | I thought so | Jun 05 02:49 |
tessier | The name ca vang (goldfish) is familiar... | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | You know them all | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 05 02:49 |
tessier | That's his twitter name at least. | Jun 05 02:49 |
tessier | Might be pe_cua on freenode | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | We have another one in IRC | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | Or 2 | Jun 05 02:49 |
schestowitz | In #bn | Jun 05 02:50 |
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DaemonFC | schestowitz: 15:00 | Jun 05 02:59 |
DaemonFC | I find his entire speech to be bizarre and hypocritical | Jun 05 03:00 |
DaemonFC | but that sentence in particular is ironic | Jun 05 03:00 |
DaemonFC | about any country that places one group of people over another being destined to fail | Jun 05 03:01 |
DaemonFC | every country in the world has priviliged supermajorities of some kind or another | Jun 05 03:02 |
DaemonFC | but the one biggest single group are the Abrahamic religions | Jun 05 03:02 |
DaemonFC | who by their very nature, subjugate, enslave, intimidate, terrorize, murder, and cajole | Jun 05 03:03 |
DaemonFC | the only difference is that the US government is officially neutral even if all the people running it are not | Jun 05 03:04 |
schestowitz | 15:00? | Jun 05 03:04 |
DaemonFC | whereas most Islamic contries rule by religious law | Jun 05 03:05 |
schestowitz | I refrrence to what exactly? | Jun 05 03:05 |
schestowitz | Microsoft Embracing, Extending, and Extinguishing Sub-notebooks < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-embracing-extending-netbooks/ > | Jun 05 03:05 |
DaemonFC | the video | Jun 05 03:05 |
schestowitz | Which one? | Jun 05 03:05 |
DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY | Jun 05 03:05 |
schestowitz | Oh | Jun 05 03:05 |
DaemonFC | in an Islamic country, you may get a show trial before they take you out and hang you not even 24 hours later for "crimes against nature" | Jun 05 03:06 |
DaemonFC | in the US, by 2003, it was mainly a few states with fines or a couple days in jail who really couldn't enforce those laws because of the fourth amendment | Jun 05 03:07 |
DaemonFC | and no state interest | Jun 05 03:07 |
DaemonFC | socially, Islam is still in the 14th century | Jun 05 03:08 |
DaemonFC | so is Christianity, but the system of checks in our government usually prevent them from twisting the law into a religiously motivated witch hunt | Jun 05 03:09 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: It's funny that Obama cherry picked the story about Thomas Jefferson having a Qur'an | Jun 05 03:09 |
DaemonFC | because Thomas Jefferson was an atheist | Jun 05 03:10 |
schestowitz | I haven't watched the video | Jun 05 03:10 |
schestowitz | It's a tad agonising watching Barrack because he seems arrogant | Jun 05 03:10 |
schestowitz | Communication skills is all a politician needs | Jun 05 03:11 |
DaemonFC | most of the people that set up our constitution were atheists, freemasons, or at least extremely moderate Christians who had learned from the abuses of the Church of England what state religion does | Jun 05 03:11 |
schestowitz | The lobbysists fo the rest | Jun 05 03:11 |
schestowitz | A law degree is common. | Jun 05 03:11 |
schestowitz | And Obama strikes me as unprofessional | Jun 05 03:11 |
schestowitz | Really? | Jun 05 03:12 |
schestowitz | People who founded the US were VERY religious | Jun 05 03:12 |
DaemonFC | yes, there were no foaming at the mouth Pat Robertson types | Jun 05 03:12 |
schestowitz | I don't know about the constitution | Jun 05 03:12 |
schestowitz | I never studies US history | Jun 05 03:12 |
schestowitz | *died | Jun 05 03:12 |
DaemonFC | the first amendment in the bill of rights specifically forbids state religion | Jun 05 03:12 |
schestowitz | Well, Church of England is ironically a lot less influential now than religion in the US | Jun 05 03:13 |
DaemonFC | "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" | Jun 05 03:13 |
DaemonFC | the Establishment Clause | Jun 05 03:13 |
schestowitz | Why "in God we trust then"? | Jun 05 03:13 |
schestowitz | And why is it assumed that theism is inherent in a born child? | Jun 05 03:13 |
DaemonFC | ceremonial diesm, and was not added til 1952 | Jun 05 03:13 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 03:13 |
schestowitz | Some ascribed this to vanity and child abuse | Jun 05 03:13 |
schestowitz | And to say "I don't BELIEVE in God is foolish too" | Jun 05 03:14 |
DaemonFC | US money did not have In God We Trust on it until the 1950s | Jun 05 03:14 |
schestowitz | It's almost to say that an invisible man does exist but you don't BELIEVE in it | Jun 05 03:14 |
schestowitz | These are al verbal traps | Jun 05 03:14 |
schestowitz | Like "intelligent design" | Jun 05 03:14 |
DaemonFC | nor did the Pledge of Allegiance contain "One nation under God" until 1957 | Jun 05 03:14 |
schestowitz | To describe unintelligent theoreticians | Jun 05 03:14 |
DaemonFC | President Eisenhower signed both of those into law | Jun 05 03:15 |
DaemonFC | and quipped his satisfaction of the thought of millions of school kids having to recit it | Jun 05 03:15 |
DaemonFC | *recite | Jun 05 03:15 |
neighborlee | you know thats growing very old..I 'recited' it everyday,,and it never HARMED my psyche | Jun 05 03:16 |
DaemonFC | I refused to | Jun 05 03:16 |
neighborlee | now if your an athiest ,,I guess its your right to be excused ..no harm no foul | Jun 05 03:16 |
DaemonFC | public school can't have kids recite it anymore | Jun 05 03:16 |
DaemonFC | but I was in a Catholic school | Jun 05 03:16 |
DaemonFC | for a while til they threw me out | Jun 05 03:17 |
neighborlee | thats a waste .. | Jun 05 03:17 |
DaemonFC | I've never believed in that stuff | Jun 05 03:17 |
DaemonFC | not even when I was 5 years old | Jun 05 03:17 |
DaemonFC | oh they hated me | Jun 05 03:17 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 05 03:17 |
neighborlee | the pledge has great meaning..sweat and blood on the backs of those whom protected our freedoms | Jun 05 03:18 |
neighborlee | very odd | Jun 05 03:18 |
DaemonFC | I said it until that line | Jun 05 03:18 |
neighborlee | I mean at that age | Jun 05 03:18 |
DaemonFC | I recited the 1896 edition | Jun 05 03:18 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 03:18 |
neighborlee | do your views mirror that of your parents ? | Jun 05 03:18 |
DaemonFC | not really, of course it's a funny story behind that | Jun 05 03:19 |
DaemonFC | long story | Jun 05 03:19 |
neighborlee | ah :)) | Jun 05 03:19 |
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DaemonFC | my parents were never all that religious | Jun 05 03:19 |
DaemonFC | they sent me to that school because I was hyperactive and such and they figured that being there would change me or something I guess | Jun 05 03:20 |
neighborlee | :( | Jun 05 03:20 |
DaemonFC | they were the "show up to church for Easter and Christmas" type | Jun 05 03:20 |
DaemonFC | and it was my mom dragging my dad in tow for even that | Jun 05 03:20 |
DaemonFC | lol | Jun 05 03:20 |
neighborlee | prob. not uncommon | Jun 05 03:21 |
neighborlee | my friend is similar | Jun 05 03:21 |
neighborlee | he's basically an athiest | Jun 05 03:21 |
DaemonFC | I hated going to church | Jun 05 03:21 |
neighborlee | at least until his death bed o_0 | Jun 05 03:21 |
DaemonFC | the last time I've even gone was like an Easter service 11 years ago | Jun 05 03:22 |
ThistleWeb | if that happened to me I'd find an alergy to men in dresses which cause me to have temporary Tourettes when near them | Jun 05 03:22 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 05 03:22 |
neighborlee | contrary to popular belief..church isn't mandatory to believing ;) | Jun 05 03:22 |
ThistleWeb | no, but gullibility is | Jun 05 03:23 |
ThistleWeb | ;) | Jun 05 03:23 |
neighborlee | its nice for some.for community..some chruches give aid..its not a overall bad thing..some people can MAKE it bad though | Jun 05 03:23 |
DaemonFC | my mom, I don't know how to describe her, she's not a real church-goer, but she has a decidedly Protestant tic that flares up now and then | Jun 05 03:23 |
neighborlee | and also contrary to popular belief..believing in god gives SOME people hope and its unfair to rob them OF that | Jun 05 03:23 |
DaemonFC | thought it would be a great idea to have them do an exorcism on me at this Pentecostal church | Jun 05 03:23 |
neighborlee | oh greeeeeeeeat | Jun 05 03:24 |
neighborlee | not their fault | Jun 05 03:24 |
neighborlee | your actions spoke volumnes | Jun 05 03:24 |
neighborlee | I mean come on :)) | Jun 05 03:24 |
neighborlee | not your fault either | Jun 05 03:24 |
DaemonFC | well, so like after dealing with about every kind of Christian there is I have concluded that they are all full of it, that they are all downright crazy, and the most I can do is respect the ones that leave me alone | Jun 05 03:24 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, are you on pills for this ?? | Jun 05 03:25 |
neighborlee | xanac ? | Jun 05 03:25 |
DaemonFC | Lithium | Jun 05 03:25 |
neighborlee | kk | Jun 05 03:25 |
DaemonFC | Zyprexa | Jun 05 03:25 |
DaemonFC | Prozac | Jun 05 03:25 |
neighborlee | imagine if you were NOT on pills right now | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | "The first signal of trouble will be a rising interest rate. I have been | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | expecting it for a while now, but the overflow of foreclosed homes, severe | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | unemployment and a general retrenchment by consumers has held inflation in | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | check. | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | When the Chinese decide our tax revenues reach a position where they barely | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | cover the interest on our debt, they will stop buying Treasury bonds and the | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | bubble will break. | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | Then again, consumer confidence may rise, astute buyers may start buying the | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | foreclosures and the trillion dollars Obama has shelled out to stop the | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | bleeding, may very well cure the patient…or somewhat of an in between | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | scenario might come to pass. | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | I am cautiously optimistic. | Jun 05 03:25 |
schestowitz | " | Jun 05 03:25 |
neighborlee | bad schestowitz LOL | Jun 05 03:26 |
DaemonFC | I took myself off the Zyprexa/Prozac after gaining like 20 pounds | Jun 05 03:26 |
DaemonFC | that stuff makes you overeat and not able to be sexually aroused | Jun 05 03:26 |
DaemonFC | it's truly nasty shit | Jun 05 03:26 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, doctor have you on other things ? | Jun 05 03:26 |
DaemonFC | a number of them | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | DaemonFC, more exercize ? | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | good | Jun 05 03:27 |
DaemonFC | adderall, ritalin, stuff I don't remember what they called it | Jun 05 03:27 |
DaemonFC | Paxil | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | get wiifit LOL | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | tons-a-fun ;)) | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | seriously its major fun :)) ,,I think so anyway | Jun 05 03:27 |
DaemonFC | then there were these big blue pills, thats another thing I don't recall what it was, it was some off label seizure med | Jun 05 03:27 |
DaemonFC | it made me hallucinate | Jun 05 03:27 |
schestowitz | weeeeeeeee feet! | Jun 05 03:27 |
neighborlee | well anyway ,,it wasn't your..or your parents fault | Jun 05 03:28 |
DaemonFC | and I ended up on the inpatient unit | Jun 05 03:28 |
neighborlee | so lay blame aside | Jun 05 03:28 |
neighborlee | if there is any- | Jun 05 03:28 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, ha | Jun 05 03:28 |
DaemonFC | what does a foot fetish have to do with a japanese video game console? | Jun 05 03:29 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 05 03:29 |
ThistleWeb | Wii Fit | Jun 05 03:29 |
ThistleWeb | or weee feet, depending on your accent | Jun 05 03:29 |
DaemonFC | I did end up quitting smoking though | Jun 05 03:31 |
DaemonFC | they keep upping the tax on those damned things | Jun 05 03:31 |
ThistleWeb | DaemonFC, congrats, I did that about 18mths ago myself | Jun 05 03:31 |
DaemonFC | I thought $4 a pack was bad, my cousin from New Jersey brought an empty suitcase with him to Indiana | Jun 05 03:31 |
DaemonFC | and fileld it up | Jun 05 03:31 |
DaemonFC | they're over $8 a pack there | Jun 05 03:31 |
DaemonFC | *filled | Jun 05 03:31 |
schestowitz | ATMs That Run Windows Fall Into Hands of Crackers < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/atm-windows-xp-problem/ > | Jun 05 03:32 |
DaemonFC | please don't be Wells Fargo | Jun 05 03:32 |
DaemonFC | ugggh | Jun 05 03:32 |
ThistleWeb | is there an easy way to tell which banks use Windows ATMs? or is that all NDA stuff | Jun 05 03:33 |
DaemonFC | I'm calling their customer care line now | Jun 05 03:33 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Feel like posting a video? | Jun 05 03:34 |
DaemonFC | depending on what they say of course | Jun 05 03:34 |
ThistleWeb | I've never seen any sign of an underlying OS at any ATM but that could just be coincidence of the times I walk past one, or use one | Jun 05 03:37 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I did get Wells Fargo to fix their online banking system | Jun 05 03:37 |
DaemonFC | It was giving a "Update your browser" screen to anyone using Opera | Jun 05 03:37 |
DaemonFC | ThistleWeb: It's easy to use XP as a kiosk | Jun 05 03:38 |
DaemonFC | without anyone knowing what it is | Jun 05 03:38 |
ThistleWeb | I've seen jobcentre kiosks uisng windows 2000 I think | Jun 05 03:38 |
DaemonFC | XP Embedded is extremely modular | Jun 05 03:38 |
ThistleWeb | not noticable until it crashes | Jun 05 03:39 |
DaemonFC | you can fit it on a 512 meg flash drive | Jun 05 03:39 |
DaemonFC | and still have it be good enough to run a kiosk | Jun 05 03:39 |
ThistleWeb | windows on something which needs to be secure IS a worry | Jun 05 03:39 |
DaemonFC | ideally you'd remove Internet Explorer, DirectX, Windows Media Player, the administrative tools, etc. | Jun 05 03:39 |
DaemonFC | if you strip down XP Embedded then most of the things that typically have security problems aren't there | Jun 05 03:40 |
ThistleWeb | I guess | Jun 05 03:40 |
DaemonFC | actually, I've played around with it quite a bit | Jun 05 03:40 |
DaemonFC | if you trim it down to run a kiosk, then only about 6% of the security updates for XP apply | Jun 05 03:41 |
DaemonFC | the rest of the components just aren't there | Jun 05 03:41 |
ThistleWeb | I never tried any embedded OS so I'm picturing normal XP modified here, which is obviously wrong | Jun 05 03:42 |
DaemonFC | hardly bulletproof, but much more malware-resistant than a typical XP installation | Jun 05 03:42 |
DaemonFC | of course a lot of companies that sell XP Embedded don't set it up right | Jun 05 03:42 |
DaemonFC | and IE and it's engine and all that are still there | Jun 05 03:42 |
DaemonFC | which of course is a bad idea | Jun 05 03:42 |
ThistleWeb | if they set it up right, they lose money from the premium support line | Jun 05 03:42 |
DaemonFC | XP itself is not really all that bad, it's the extra components that are mandatory in a normal version of XP | Jun 05 03:43 |
DaemonFC | IE and Windows Media Player make up more than 90% of XP's security problems | Jun 05 03:44 |
ThistleWeb | I know IE is bad | Jun 05 03:44 |
ThistleWeb | along with Office | Jun 05 03:44 |
ThistleWeb | for critical vulnerablities | Jun 05 03:44 |
DaemonFC | Office is bad because of macros and IE integration | Jun 05 03:45 |
DaemonFC | and now it integrates with .Net | Jun 05 03:45 |
ThistleWeb | judging by the update descriptions | Jun 05 03:45 |
DaemonFC | and a lot of other things it has no business poking around in | Jun 05 03:45 |
ThistleWeb | yep, turning off macros and active x is a key | Jun 05 03:45 |
DaemonFC | StarOffice has a convertor utility that OOo does not | Jun 05 03:46 |
DaemonFC | it lets you convert MS Office macros into StarBasic | Jun 05 03:46 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 03:46 |
ThistleWeb | really? | Jun 05 03:46 |
DaemonFC | yep | Jun 05 03:46 |
DaemonFC | and back again | Jun 05 03:46 |
ThistleWeb | damn I was looking for that about a year ago | Jun 05 03:46 |
ThistleWeb | to get a local charity to switch away from MS Office | Jun 05 03:46 |
DaemonFC | StarOffice can be a worthy upgrade if you need advanced features | Jun 05 03:47 |
ThistleWeb | they had 5 .doc template letters with macros they needed | Jun 05 03:47 |
DaemonFC | they license it for $40 and it's per individual | Jun 05 03:47 |
DaemonFC | not per machine | Jun 05 03:47 |
DaemonFC | so I can install it for my own use on unlimited systems | Jun 05 03:47 |
ThistleWeb | a single convert and save would work | Jun 05 03:47 |
schestowitz | Daylight is coming now. Time to get some sleep | Jun 05 03:47 |
ThistleWeb | then they run the converted odf as template | Jun 05 03:47 |
DaemonFC | StarOffice also works with the Novell OOXML plugin if you need it to | Jun 05 03:48 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 05 03:48 |
DaemonFC | I do cause it's that or use MS Office | Jun 05 03:48 |
ThistleWeb | does open office allow macros? | Jun 05 03:48 |
DaemonFC | Iyes | Jun 05 03:49 |
DaemonFC | it's StarBasic | Jun 05 03:49 |
DaemonFC | they call it OpenOffice.org Basic | Jun 05 03:49 |
DaemonFC | but same thing | Jun 05 03:49 |
ThistleWeb | I have no idea how to write macros, so I looked for a converter | Jun 05 03:49 |
DaemonFC | looks like OOo 3 can use *some* Excel macros | Jun 05 03:50 |
DaemonFC | but for security reasons it's disabled by default | Jun 05 03:50 |
DaemonFC | looks like they're trying to get it to where you can run unmodified MS Office macros | Jun 05 03:51 |
DaemonFC | turning it off is a good idea | Jun 05 03:51 |
DaemonFC | let the user pull that switch | Jun 05 03:51 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 05 03:51 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 05 03:51 |
ThistleWeb | gotta love the contrasting approaches to interoperability between OOo and Microsoft. OOo gradually implements more MS features and strives to get them working, while MS intentionally fail on odf support | Jun 05 03:53 |
DaemonFC | OOo needs to be compatible with MS Office more than MS Office needs to be compatible with OOo | Jun 05 04:12 |
DaemonFC | it's jsut like how web browsers have Quirks Mode where they can emulate some Internet Explorer oddities | Jun 05 04:12 |
ThistleWeb | true although you'd think Microsoft wouldn't want to push the EU too much | Jun 05 04:20 |
ThistleWeb | on the other hand, they are used to getting their own way | Jun 05 04:21 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft is compatible with ODF the same whay that Windows is compatible with POSIX | Jun 05 04:23 |
DaemonFC | they implement just enough of it to be in compliance with what they government said they have to | Jun 05 04:23 |
DaemonFC | Win32 and Win64 are not the real NT API, just what Windows apps see | Jun 05 04:24 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft could easily make Windows into a fully UNIX-compliant system by implementing another API personality | Jun 05 04:24 |
DaemonFC | they have no reason to but it could be done without redoing the whole operating system | Jun 05 04:25 |
ThistleWeb | they do seem to go to great lengths to ensure vendor lock in, so they do have knowledgable peeps, it's a pity it's being channeled in negative directions | Jun 05 04:25 |
DaemonFC | most of the native API is undocumented and most of what's known about it has been obtained through reverse engineering | Jun 05 04:25 |
DaemonFC | like ReactOS and Wine | Jun 05 04:25 |
DaemonFC | Windows has every feature you would expect in a modern operating system, and it's all clearly UNIX-inspired | Jun 05 04:26 |
DaemonFC | but yes, intentionally incompatible | Jun 05 04:26 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft does distribute GPL-licensed software in Subsystem for UNIX Applications | Jun 05 04:27 |
DaemonFC | they have GCC and a few hundred other GNU utilities | Jun 05 04:27 |
DaemonFC | to implement a UNIX environment on top of Windows NT | Jun 05 04:28 |
DaemonFC | oddly enough they don't use BASH for their shell | Jun 05 04:28 |
DaemonFC | they use KSH (Korn Shell | Jun 05 04:28 |
ThistleWeb | I hardly use the terminal so I don't care what it uses, bash seems fine to me | Jun 05 04:29 |
ThistleWeb | I guess it matters if you use it a lot | Jun 05 04:30 |
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DaemonFC | I use TCSH | Jun 05 04:31 |
DaemonFC | but use DASH as /bin/sh | Jun 05 04:31 |
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DaemonFC | http://www.avg-watch.org/ | Jun 05 04:40 |
DaemonFC | the real reason for why there appears to be so many IE 6 users | Jun 05 04:41 |
DaemonFC | AVG Linkscanner IDs as IE 6 on XP | Jun 05 04:41 |
ThistleWeb | I heard something somehwere about changing your browser ID to google's spider and it gets passed many sites' blocks | Jun 05 04:42 |
ThistleWeb | because people want google to index it | Jun 05 04:43 |
ThistleWeb | cant remember where I heard it, or what the context was | Jun 05 04:43 |
ThistleWeb | I think it was for sites requiring free registration for some content | Jun 05 04:44 |
DaemonFC | yeah | Jun 05 04:44 |
DaemonFC | free porn | Jun 05 04:44 |
DaemonFC | wooohooo | Jun 05 04:44 |
ThistleWeb | dunno if it works or not | Jun 05 04:44 |
ThistleWeb | I know the BBC had a loophole for the iPlayer where it let you download if it saw you as an iPhone | Jun 05 04:45 |
ThistleWeb | rather than just stream it | Jun 05 04:45 |
ThistleWeb | they fixed that within a few days and described people using a browser agent switcher as "hacking" | Jun 05 04:45 |
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mib_dya64o | is OpenOffice.org fully ODF compliant ? | Jun 05 06:40 |
DaemonFC | lots of Bing commercials on TV | Jun 05 07:02 |
DaemonFC | China is censoring the term June 4th | Jun 05 07:34 |
DaemonFC | from appearing anywhere on the internet as viewed in China | Jun 05 07:34 |
neonfloor | anyone mind helping me with some shell scripting? | Jun 05 07:37 |
DaemonFC | WordPerfect supports ODF well | Jun 05 07:42 |
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mib_dya64o | is SUN's OpenOffice.org fully compliant with SUN's ODF format ? Yes or no. | Jun 05 07:52 |
Omar87 | Hello everyone. | Jun 05 07:52 |
Omar87 | Is there anything wrong with FSDaily? | Jun 05 07:52 |
Omar87 | Because it doesn't work with me. | Jun 05 07:53 |
Omar87 | Could it have been attacked or is it just me? | Jun 05 07:53 |
DaemonFC | it's down | Jun 05 07:54 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Really? What's the problem? | Jun 05 07:55 |
DaemonFC | no idea | Jun 05 07:55 |
Omar87 | Hmm.. Well I hope it comes back up soon, then.. -_- | Jun 05 07:55 |
DaemonFC | someone needs to send Rush Limbaugh a cigar box full of Oxycontin and let the problem sort itself out | Jun 05 08:12 |
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ushimitsudoki | howdy | Jun 05 08:39 |
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Omar87 | Who's Rush Limbaugh? | Jun 05 08:53 |
DaemonFC | a big fat idiot | Jun 05 08:54 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 08:54 |
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ushimitsudoki | Omar87: American Right-Wing radio talkshow host | Jun 05 09:03 |
schestowitz | Hmmmmm..... | Jun 05 09:04 |
schestowitz | -rw-rw-r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 239679101 May 27 14:53 wordpressdatabase-27052009.dump | Jun 05 09:04 |
schestowitz | -rw-rw-r-- 1 boycottn boycottn 229637689 May 28 00:45 wordpressdatabase-28052009.dump | Jun 05 09:04 |
schestowitz | Any reason why a DB can get smaller overnight? | Jun 05 09:04 |
schestowitz | Maybe cache? Change of mysql version? | Jun 05 09:05 |
schestowitz | It shrank by 10 MB overnight | Jun 05 09:05 |
schestowitz | Omar87: yes, FSDaily and FSMagzine has been down for days | Jun 05 09:06 |
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MinceR | hay | Jun 05 09:10 |
DaemonFC | hmmm, WordPerfect Office SP1 | Jun 05 09:11 |
DaemonFC | heh, just popped up and offered to install | Jun 05 09:11 |
schestowitz | mib_dya64o: are you an expert with mysql? | Jun 05 09:11 |
schestowitz | Here's the thing | Jun 05 09:13 |
schestowitz | 26th: 227mb | Jun 05 09:13 |
schestowitz | 27th: 239mb | Jun 05 09:13 |
schestowitz | 28th: 229mb | Jun 05 09:13 |
schestowitz | Question is, why did it inflate itself that day so suddenly. Can mysql keep some metadata or something nefarious? | Jun 05 09:14 |
ushimitsudoki | schestowitz: if the dumps are from mysqldump they will be flat text files and can be viewed (and diffed) in the normal text editors | Jun 05 09:23 |
ushimitsudoki | if the dumps are from some other proggy they might be compressed or something. | Jun 05 09:24 |
ushimitsudoki | so the first thing to determine is what is generating the dumps | Jun 05 09:24 |
schestowitz | ushimitsudoki: just a standard mysqldump | Jun 05 09:25 |
schestowitz | Given the size, I wonder if two dbs were dumped into one in this case | Jun 05 09:26 |
schestowitz | As in, both the wiki and wordpress | Jun 05 09:26 |
schestowitz | Because the size would fit perfectly. | Jun 05 09:26 |
schestowitz | I am just being in 'paranoid mode' here | Jun 05 09:26 |
schestowitz | But later I find it was just a one-day anomaly, so.. | Jun 05 09:26 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: WordPerfect Office was going to be on Linux | Jun 05 09:36 |
DaemonFC | til Microsoft made it worth their while to not port it | Jun 05 09:37 |
DaemonFC | it does run fine under Wine though | Jun 05 09:37 |
schestowitz | The Corel deal | Jun 05 09:39 |
DaemonFC | mmhm | Jun 05 09:39 |
schestowitz | Good news! | Jun 05 09:41 |
schestowitz | The EU commision finally gave me the docs I demanded | Jun 05 09:41 |
schestowitz | I was going to file a complaint against them | Jun 05 09:41 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: http://docx-converter.com/ | Jun 05 09:41 |
schestowitz | European Commission was going to be Reported to ombudsman for Not Obeying Transparency Rules | Jun 05 09:42 |
schestowitz | This was the plan: | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | I could complain at the ombudsman against Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and the European Commission, DG InfoSoc, here is the form: | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | http://www.ombudsman.europa.eu/showResource?resourceId=1235463789310_form_en.pdf&type=pdf&download=true&lang=en | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | I was just about to send it to The European Ombudsman — 1 Avenue du Président Robert Schuman — B.P. 403 — FR- 67001 Strasbourg Cedex — France | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | 3: Misconduct and delay: public access request concerning documents about the European Software Strategy (ESS) under Lars Hindkjær Pedersen and several colleagues at the European Commission, DG Infosoc | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | 4. Breach of Article 255 TEC | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - improper conduct and delay of the Commission in its application of | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | directive EC/1049/2001 concerning repeated and confirmatory request for | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | document access | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - alleged difficulty to find documents which relate to the ESS. The | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | Commission confirmed a provided non-exhaustive list helped to find some | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | of the documents but repeated the call for clarifications ad nauseam. | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - The request and communication was directed to the department in charge | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | with the European Software Strategy (ESS) who are in possession of | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | relevant documents. | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - deadlines under the legal base have expired without grant of any | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | access to the requested documents or an official decision. | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | 5. | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - grant access and help to identify the documents, cmp. Article 15 | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | EC/1049/2001 | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - examine all documents in their possession concerning the ESS process. | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | - meet the legal requirements under Article 15 EC/1049/2001 | Jun 05 09:43 |
schestowitz | == | Jun 05 09:44 |
schestowitz | But they sent it to me at the 90th minutes | Jun 05 09:44 |
schestowitz | *minute | Jun 05 09:44 |
schestowitz | Past the deadline | Jun 05 09:44 |
schestowitz | But there is no need to register a formal complaint anymore | Jun 05 09:44 |
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schestowitz | Microsoft Copies Wikipedia and Links to a GNU Licence < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-copies-wikipedia/ > | Jun 05 09:50 |
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MinceR | so nothing is unholy to m$ now? :> | Jun 05 10:05 |
schestowitz | https://webgate.ec.europa.eu/transparency/regrin/consultation/search.do#searchResult | Jun 05 10:09 |
schestowitz | No matched for Zuck. He's an undercover... AstroTurf dude... just registering sites via domainbyproxy.com | Jun 05 10:09 |
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tessier | http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/linux_driver_project_status-2009-06.html | Jun 05 10:13 |
tessier | Novell isn't doing all bad it seems... | Jun 05 10:13 |
tessier | So many companies are so schizophrenic it's bizarre... | Jun 05 10:13 |
oiaohm | Remember Greg K-H was a SUSE staffer. | Jun 05 10:18 |
oiaohm | There are quite a few distributions who would love to grab him. | Jun 05 10:18 |
oiaohm | Novell is limited on how much they can interfer with him. | Jun 05 10:19 |
MinceR | yet he happily spreads FUD. | Jun 05 10:21 |
oiaohm | Compared to mono lead he don't spreed much MinceR. | Jun 05 10:22 |
MinceR | yes, and compared to politicians, he often tells the truth | Jun 05 10:22 |
MinceR | it isn't saying much. | Jun 05 10:22 |
oiaohm | All main developers for all the closed source distributions spreed some fud to sell distribution they are connected to MinceR. | Jun 05 10:23 |
MinceR | well apparently the others didn't get so much exposure about it | Jun 05 10:24 |
oiaohm | There are the ones who do Fud. Then here is ones that do all out lies. | Jun 05 10:24 |
MinceR | they probably spread a lot less FUD | Jun 05 10:24 |
schestowitz | Fedora Leaves Mono Out, OpenSUSE Has Second Thoughts, and So Should Ubuntu < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/mono-monologue/ > | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | tessier: indeed | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | Greg is doing great work | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | Sometimes it's a PR thing | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | Like Intel hiring Cox | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | Or Linspire putting ESR on its board | Jun 05 10:25 |
schestowitz | They buy icons to be used as some sort of defense mascots | Jun 05 10:25 |
oiaohm | Most of Gregs fud about mono is funny. Its like lets just skip over that topic is not the department I work in. Now anyone who knows Greg he don't skip things normally. | Jun 05 10:27 |
tessier | schestowitz: It looks like you have a cron job to dump the db on the server and it isn't working properly. | Jun 05 10:27 |
tessier | schestowitz: It is trying to deliver the errors from the cron job to boycottn@boycottnovell.com but that doesn't work because we have disabled the receiving of all local mail. Maybe I should set it up to accept its own local mails to the boycottn user account but not accept any mail from the network? | Jun 05 10:28 |
ushimitsudoki | I love this (from Miguel's latest blog): "On Windows for example, MonoDevelop runs on top of the .NET Framework and uses the .NET managed debugger instead of using Mono's runtime and Mono's debugger, so there is no dependency on Mono to be installed on the system." | Jun 05 10:28 |
ushimitsudoki | So basically you've got a Windows .NET application that doesn't even use mono. Hooray. This is truly a blessing for Linux users everywhere. | Jun 05 10:28 |
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oiaohm | Yep and MonoDevelop is still secound rate to visual studio on windows. | Jun 05 10:30 |
MinceR | taking into account what my colleague said about vs, that would be pretty bad then :> | Jun 05 10:31 |
ushimitsudoki | Exactly. If I was a windows developer, why the hell would I be using this second rate shit anyway? What serious windows developer isn't running visual studio? and what wanna-be isn't running VS Express? | Jun 05 10:31 |
ushimitsudoki | I've never understood that whole "bringing Windows developers over to LInux" line of argument | Jun 05 10:31 |
oiaohm | VS Express with the right alterations is the same program as Full VS. | Jun 05 10:31 |
ushimitsudoki | Is there a group out there that cares LESS about linux what Windows developers? | Jun 05 10:32 |
ushimitsudoki | s/what/than/ | Jun 05 10:32 |
MinceR | yes, macos developers | Jun 05 10:32 |
ushimitsudoki | heh | Jun 05 10:32 |
oiaohm | My problem is .net programmers are more like the VB programmers of old. | Jun 05 10:32 |
oiaohm | Most of what they produce is crap. | Jun 05 10:32 |
oiaohm | The create a few gems from time to time. But to make them useable you need to port them to a better language. | Jun 05 10:33 |
oiaohm | I really don't see the interest in them. We would be better off getting the windows codes hooked in python. | Jun 05 10:34 |
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schestowitz | Can you guys access the site (BN)? | Jun 05 10:37 |
MinceR | i couldn't the last time, retrying | Jun 05 10:37 |
_Hicham_ | good morning Sir schestowitz | Jun 05 10:37 |
schestowitz | tessier: oh, yeah... | Jun 05 10:37 |
schestowitz | I don't know why the cron didn't work, either | Jun 05 10:37 |
tessier | You doing something with the site? | Jun 05 10:38 |
schestowitz | Nope | Jun 05 10:38 |
tessier | I can't seem to access it from here. I can ssh in though. And I see weird stuff in the logs: | Jun 05 10:38 |
ushimitsudoki | no BN for me - it was up earlier | Jun 05 10:38 |
tessier | 216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:48:59 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/ HTTP/1.1" 200 24576 "http://guruofseo.tripod.com/seoelitehvy.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)" | Jun 05 10:38 |
tessier | 216.137.5.141 - - [05/Jun/2009:02:49:00 -0700] "GET /2009/03/03/new-arm-linux-gadget/ HTTP/1.1" 200 154194 "http://incomeonline.100webspace.net/hits4payhvy.html" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)" | Jun 05 10:38 |
schestowitz | Hmmmmm...... | Jun 05 10:39 |
schestowitz | It worked about 5 minutes ago | Jun 05 10:39 |
schestowitz | I didn't change anything | Jun 05 10:39 |
tessier | I just restarted httpd. Now traffic is moving again. | Jun 05 10:39 |
tessier | That same referrer kept appearing in the logs over and over again. | Jun 05 10:39 |
MinceR | yup, works now | Jun 05 10:39 |
schestowitz | Thanks! | Jun 05 10:40 |
schestowitz | :-) | Jun 05 10:40 |
*schestowitz Wonders what happened there.... | Jun 05 10:40 | |
fewa | back up | Jun 05 10:40 |
schestowitz | We've just exposed a list of MS lobbyists in Europe | Jun 05 10:40 |
schestowitz | Huge list! | Jun 05 10:40 |
_Hicham_ | I can access BN schestowitz | Jun 05 10:40 |
schestowitz | It's a list to be put on display | Jun 05 10:41 |
schestowitz | The EU hides it behind Web form, so it's public material, but not easy to access | Jun 05 10:41 |
fewa | The Bahamas Telecommunications Company, Ltd. | Jun 05 10:41 |
fewa | hmmmmm | Jun 05 10:41 |
schestowitz | Same for Presto Ellis/Gates lobbyists | Jun 05 10:41 |
fewa | DDoS from the bahamas | Jun 05 10:41 |
_Hicham_ | Morocco loves BN | Jun 05 10:41 |
_Hicham_ | and loves schestowitz too | Jun 05 10:42 |
schestowitz | Just don't buy me flowers.. *LOL* | Jun 05 10:42 |
_Hicham_ | I am gonna buy you some proprietary software | Jun 05 10:43 |
_Hicham_ | as a gift | Jun 05 10:43 |
_Hicham_ | vive schestowitz! | Jun 05 10:44 |
oiaohm | You could buy him Linux foundation member ship and get a email address on Linux.com. Most likely even more useless. | Jun 05 10:44 |
_Hicham_ | howdy oiaohm? | Jun 05 10:48 |
oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Jun 05 10:48 |
oiaohm | If someone giving me propretary software it betting run under Linux. | Jun 05 10:48 |
schestowitz | oiaohm is the good cop here | Jun 05 10:48 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC is the daemonic one | Jun 05 10:48 |
schestowitz | Spreading Linux FUD | Jun 05 10:49 |
schestowitz | Mercilessly | Jun 05 10:49 |
schestowitz | And peddling non-Free s/w... | Jun 05 10:49 |
oiaohm | I get in trouble from twitter for not being pro open source all the time. | Jun 05 10:49 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is a great dev | Jun 05 10:49 |
_Hicham_ | he is gonna implement a lot of things in Linux | Jun 05 10:49 |
_Hicham_ | port existing games to GLX | Jun 05 10:49 |
_Hicham_ | and so on | Jun 05 10:49 |
_Hicham_ | so no worries | Jun 05 10:50 |
_Hicham_ | he is working hard | Jun 05 10:50 |
oiaohm | I am more a system admin. | Jun 05 10:50 |
_Hicham_ | oiaohm is gonna make link time optimization happen in gcc | Jun 05 10:50 |
oiaohm | So I am kinda mixed in my for open source and against it. I have to have stuff work. | Jun 05 10:50 |
oiaohm | If gcc does not get there llvm will. | Jun 05 10:50 |
_Hicham_ | oiaohm : can't we work without proprietary software? | Jun 05 10:50 |
oiaohm | Either way I don't care. | Jun 05 10:51 |
_Hicham_ | llvm doesn't support it yet? | Jun 05 10:51 |
oiaohm | llvm cannot build all gcc source codes yet. | Jun 05 10:51 |
oiaohm | So there are still stacks of applications out there it cannot build. | Jun 05 10:51 |
oiaohm | _Hicham_: there are some areas where I just cannot change users at this stage. All alterations I do must leave businesses highly productive. | Jun 05 10:52 |
oiaohm | Particular areas like POS's and forms of data entry I have already mostly converted to open source. | Jun 05 10:53 |
_Hicham_ | wine can't still do the job of transition? | Jun 05 10:53 |
oiaohm | Big bug bear is laptops and the like. When you need profile auto syncing back to server when connected. There is no nice way to just pick up a Linux laptop and just have it join even to a Linux server for that kind of operation. | Jun 05 10:54 |
oiaohm | Most are network intergration things that since Linux major job has been servers have not be coded up. | Jun 05 10:55 |
oiaohm | its not like you plan to disconnect servers at lot from networks like you do with laptops. | Jun 05 10:56 |
_Hicham_ | I know it is hard | Jun 05 10:57 |
oiaohm | Basically if I could show businesses that Linux has a standard system for that I could change a lot more of there machines over. | Jun 05 10:57 |
oiaohm | More often than not its the bosses with the laptops. | Jun 05 10:57 |
schestowitz | MinceR: what was that blog with funny company logos? | Jun 05 10:58 |
schestowitz | Like GM fail? | Jun 05 10:58 |
mib_dya64o | like "wang cares !" | Jun 05 10:58 |
oiaohm | Twitter tries selling the the line. Linux is perfect for everywhere. _Hicham_ I bet you can see how that would go south to a person like me living in the real world of IT. | Jun 05 10:59 |
schestowitz | There's a set of funny warped logos | Jun 05 10:59 |
schestowitz | Hi, mib_dya64o | Jun 05 10:59 |
oiaohm | Then calls me anti-linux when I start pointing out the problems. | Jun 05 10:59 |
mib_dya64o | Hi Mr Schostowitz | Jun 05 11:00 |
mib_dya64o | sorry schestowitz | Jun 05 11:00 |
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oiaohm | Hi mib_dya64o | Jun 05 11:04 |
_Hicham_ | u are called anti-linux by linux enthusiasts | Jun 05 11:05 |
_Hicham_ | Linux enthusiasts who are still newbies | Jun 05 11:06 |
_Hicham_ | who don't wanna hear about Linux problems | Jun 05 11:06 |
oiaohm | And I get called anti-windows by windows fans. | Jun 05 11:06 |
schestowitz | Microsoft May be Following GM’s Road Map < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-road-map/ > | Jun 05 11:07 |
schestowitz | I twisted the headline there:-) | Jun 05 11:07 |
oiaohm | About the only one I don't get called anti from is mac and that is mostly because I don't talk about them because they are too expensive. | Jun 05 11:07 |
oiaohm | I just one of these people who just expects that I will get fried by someone. | Jun 05 11:07 |
_Hicham_ | but you are always welcome in BN | Jun 05 11:10 |
_Hicham_ | u can't find better than schestowitz' home | Jun 05 11:10 |
mib_dya64o | It depends on your motive, if you are critical because you want to see the product improved thats fine :) | Jun 05 11:10 |
_Hicham_ | everyone want to see products improved | Jun 05 11:11 |
oiaohm | I want the OS I can breach out of my network mib_dya64o | Jun 05 11:12 |
oiaohm | I am not the most skilled system cracker in the world. But windows is just a walk in the park. | Jun 05 11:12 |
_Hicham_ | cracking Windows pays a lot | Jun 05 11:13 |
oiaohm | I know I could have made billions form it. | Jun 05 11:13 |
oiaohm | But I respect other people too much todo that. | Jun 05 11:13 |
oiaohm | Not running servers as main user on the system data back to early rule of OS design. | Jun 05 11:14 |
oiaohm | UAC is more a trojan than anything else. My system is secure because I am running UAC. So people get careless. | Jun 05 11:15 |
mib_dya64o | how is it a trojan ? | Jun 05 11:16 |
oiaohm | It interfers with you work for no real gain. | Jun 05 11:16 |
oiaohm | Even application coders even bipass it. | Jun 05 11:17 |
oiaohm | Need to do a operation that would trip UAC. No problem load a service. | Jun 05 11:17 |
oiaohm | UAC don't monitor that. | Jun 05 11:17 |
_Hicham_ | great oiaohm | Jun 05 11:17 |
_Hicham_ | that is how an OS would be | Jun 05 11:17 |
_Hicham_ | u can bypass any restriction | Jun 05 11:18 |
oiaohm | If UAC really worked that would not work. | Jun 05 11:18 |
oiaohm | So its a trojan horse. Makes you feel secure when you are a sitting duck. | Jun 05 11:18 |
_Hicham_ | I don't agree to spread secure OSes | Jun 05 11:19 |
oiaohm | Windows also has another design flaw. | Jun 05 11:19 |
_Hicham_ | secure OSes are useless | Jun 05 11:19 |
oiaohm | I am a program I perform an action I don't have permission todo. Under windows you get illegal operation. Under Linux terminated without notice. | Jun 05 11:20 |
oiaohm | What way is the more secure method. | Jun 05 11:20 |
oiaohm | Yep no probing under Linux unless you want to end up a dead process fast. | Jun 05 11:21 |
_Hicham_ | under a console, you would see a message | Jun 05 11:21 |
mib_dya64o | they both accomplish the same goal, or result. the shutting down of the offending code | Jun 05 11:21 |
oiaohm | No they don't. | Jun 05 11:21 |
oiaohm | If a program will not be killed. | Jun 05 11:21 |
oiaohm | It can probe until it locates a exploitable flaw mib_dya64o | Jun 05 11:21 |
mib_dya64o | If a program performs an illegal operation it is closed down | Jun 05 11:21 |
oiaohm | Application can catch the illegal operation. | Jun 05 11:22 |
oiaohm | With windows SEH. | Jun 05 11:22 |
oiaohm | So application remains running mib_dya64o | Jun 05 11:22 |
_Hicham_ | it is just a coding problem | Jun 05 11:22 |
oiaohm | OS core of Linux killed the application. | Jun 05 11:22 |
_Hicham_ | and I think you are talking about exception handling | Jun 05 11:23 |
oiaohm | If you do a action against permissions set in a Linux LSM exception handling will not catch it. | Jun 05 11:23 |
oiaohm | Program is just dead. That simple. | Jun 05 11:23 |
mib_dya64o | if code throws and exception, good code will trap it and deal with it in an appropriate manner. | Jun 05 11:23 |
oiaohm | To a point. | Jun 05 11:23 |
mib_dya64o | Which may be more involved than just shutting down the app | Jun 05 11:23 |
_Hicham_ | not with SELinux | Jun 05 11:24 |
oiaohm | Lets say applicaiton is asking to access core of system. | Jun 05 11:24 |
_Hicham_ | did u use SELinux? | Jun 05 11:24 |
oiaohm | I use SELinux. SELinux can be set not to give notice before termination. | Jun 05 11:24 |
_Hicham_ | ah | Jun 05 11:24 |
_Hicham_ | so now u admit it | Jun 05 11:24 |
_Hicham_ | it is a choice | Jun 05 11:25 |
oiaohm | So can smack by the way. | Jun 05 11:25 |
_Hicham_ | rather than a flow | Jun 05 11:25 |
_Hicham_ | flaw | Jun 05 11:25 |
_Hicham_ | the choices are there | Jun 05 11:25 |
oiaohm | running secure systems you will be running Selinux or smack. | Jun 05 11:25 |
_Hicham_ | either SELinux or AppArmor | Jun 05 11:25 |
oiaohm | never apparmor. | Jun 05 11:25 |
oiaohm | Its flawed. | Jun 05 11:25 |
oiaohm | You can walk straight past every protection apparmor puts up. | Jun 05 11:26 |
_Hicham_ | Ubuntu uses AppArmor | Jun 05 11:26 |
_Hicham_ | like Novell distros | Jun 05 11:26 |
oiaohm | Yep complete idiots. | Jun 05 11:26 |
oiaohm | Novell has switched to selinux by the way. | Jun 05 11:26 |
_Hicham_ | SELinux is mature | Jun 05 11:26 |
_Hicham_ | it has been present in early version of Fedora | Jun 05 11:26 |
oiaohm | Selinux and smack are both mainline kernel secuirty modules. | Jun 05 11:26 |
oiaohm | So fairly well audited. | Jun 05 11:26 |
oiaohm | apparmor failed 5 attempts due to technical reason to be included. | Jun 05 11:27 |
oiaohm | And almost none of those problems have been fixed. | Jun 05 11:27 |
_Hicham_ | Novell isn't an expert in security | Jun 05 11:29 |
_Hicham_ | but they do great job | Jun 05 11:30 |
_Hicham_ | they contribute a lot to kernel | Jun 05 11:30 |
oiaohm | If you want something lighter than selinux and smack that is path based the one to use is TOMOYO Linux | Jun 05 11:30 |
_Hicham_ | they have made evolution | Jun 05 11:30 |
_Hicham_ | I won't use non audited techs | Jun 05 11:31 |
oiaohm | TOMOYO is audited. | Jun 05 11:31 |
_Hicham_ | Novell also contributed to Network Manager | Jun 05 11:31 |
oiaohm | And will be in 2.6.30 | Jun 05 11:31 |
_Hicham_ | great | Jun 05 11:31 |
_Hicham_ | is it a Japanese tech? | Jun 05 11:31 |
oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 05 11:31 |
oiaohm | Only recently started being tranlsated to english. | Jun 05 11:32 |
_Hicham_ | great | Jun 05 11:32 |
oiaohm | Document currently make it a little fun at moment. | Jun 05 11:32 |
oiaohm | But by end of year it should be good. | Jun 05 11:32 |
_Hicham_ | SELinux is mature | Jun 05 11:33 |
_Hicham_ | but it still have problems with ext4 filesystem | Jun 05 11:33 |
_Hicham_ | does TOMOYO support ext4 filesystem? | Jun 05 11:33 |
oiaohm | TOMOYO is path based like apparmor but it works. So it not effected by filesystem at all. | Jun 05 11:35 |
_Hicham_ | great | Jun 05 11:35 |
schestowitz | Details of Microsoft’s Lobbying in Europe http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-lobby-in-europe/ | Jun 05 11:38 |
oiaohm | http://tomoyo.sourceforge.jp/wiki-e/?WhatIs#comparison << _Hicham_ | Jun 05 11:38 |
oiaohm | TOMOYO also includes a learning mode that apparmor does not. | Jun 05 11:39 |
_Hicham_ | I never trust novell techs | Jun 05 11:39 |
oiaohm | Its still a young secuirty mod. So it got a lot todo be for it can beat selinux. | Jun 05 11:39 |
oiaohm | At least it should provide a user friendly basic level. | Jun 05 11:40 |
schestowitz | Does anyone have tools for turning PDF to HTML? trmanco maybe? | Jun 05 11:40 |
oiaohm | Openoffice + pdf import works on some schestowitz | Jun 05 11:42 |
mib_dya64o | online pdf to htmll conversion www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetools.html | Jun 05 11:42 |
oiaohm | If its my pdf I do have the odt schestowitz. | Jun 05 11:43 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : do u want an automated script? | Jun 05 11:43 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: it needs JRE | Jun 05 11:46 |
schestowitz | I could never get it to work | Jun 05 11:47 |
schestowitz | trmanco has some scripts | Jun 05 11:47 |
schestowitz | mib_dya64o: thanks! | Jun 05 11:47 |
oiaohm | Yep 1.6 real sun java or it don't work. | Jun 05 11:48 |
MinceR | schestowitz: i can't find the crisis-themed logos | Jun 05 11:57 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : it works for me with OpenJDK | Jun 05 12:00 |
_Hicham_ | I just retested a pdf | Jun 05 12:02 |
schestowitz | mib_dya64o: thanks, it's working well | Jun 05 12:06 |
mib_dya64o | good to hear, no problems :) | Jun 05 12:07 |
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schestowitz | It'll all be up soon. Loads ofg stuff | Jun 05 12:13 |
schestowitz | *of | Jun 05 12:13 |
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oiaohm | http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/June09/SynthSounds.ws.html sometimes you just have to step back and go wow. | Jun 05 12:16 |
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oiaohm | That reminds me. I have see if I can add a geoip script to konversation I miss that from where I was using Chatzilla. | Jun 05 12:31 |
oiaohm | http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/ftc-forces-hive-of-scum-and-villainy-isp-offline.ars That explains why some bot nets stopped. | Jun 05 12:33 |
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schestowitz | After 3 Months, Europe Lets Microsoft-Influenced EU Panel be Seen < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/microsoft-corrupted-eu-panel/ > | Jun 05 12:42 |
ushimitsudoki | Check out Hugo Lueders on the Open Source Software group. Here he remarking that open source recommendations are "unnecessary": http://www.euractiv.com/en/infosociety/open-source-software-recommendations-unnecessary-hugo-lueders-director-initiative-software-choice/article-161090 | Jun 05 13:07 |
ushimitsudoki | His appendix in the working group is that same flavor of BS | Jun 05 13:07 |
schestowitz | He is anti-FOSS | Jun 05 13:08 |
schestowitz | Hugo Lueders that is | Jun 05 13:09 |
schestowitz | Notorious | Jun 05 13:09 |
schestowitz | Crap | Jun 05 13:09 |
schestowitz | I think I need to restart httd | Jun 05 13:09 |
schestowitz | httpd | Jun 05 13:09 |
ushimitsudoki | Big time. More of his same song and dance here: http://pr.euractiv.com/node/2465 | Jun 05 13:09 |
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schestowitz | OK... | Jun 05 13:10 |
schestowitz | ushimitsudoki: search BN on him :-) | Jun 05 13:10 |
schestowitz | BN brings together external links | Jun 05 13:11 |
schestowitz | His past has some racist pro-communism something IIRC | Jun 05 13:11 |
schestowitz | I'd have to check my notes | Jun 05 13:11 |
schestowitz | Past as in decades ago | Jun 05 13:11 |
schestowitz | The EPO Does Not Work for European Citizens < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/epo-not-for-european-citizens/ > | Jun 05 13:14 |
ushimitsudoki | Looks like the "european software association" is spinning the same lines too. Why are these people even in an Open Source working group? I have to read more on this | Jun 05 13:15 |
trmanco | http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2267/imagem1lui.png | Jun 05 13:23 |
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schestowitz | ushimitsudoki: thanks for looking | Jun 05 13:32 |
schestowitz | trmanco: wow | Jun 05 13:32 |
schestowitz | It DOES have good results | Jun 05 13:32 |
trmanco | but the problem really isn't the results | Jun 05 13:33 |
schestowitz | $Decision Engine sez: use Google | Jun 05 13:33 |
trmanco | see what the have put on google.pt | Jun 05 13:33 |
trmanco | the title | Jun 05 13:33 |
schestowitz | Yes, I know | Jun 05 13:33 |
trmanco | it's sort of an offensive word | Jun 05 13:33 |
oiaohm | http://www.fsdaily.com/blog/were-back Bugger | Jun 05 13:38 |
oiaohm | What happens when you are on the wrong host schestowitz. | Jun 05 13:39 |
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schestowitz | oiaohm: they run from backup | Jun 05 13:46 |
schestowitz | It's out of date | Jun 05 13:46 |
schestowitz | Where does Firefox store its dictionary files? | Jun 05 13:49 |
schestowitz | It doesn't use aspell or ispell | Jun 05 13:50 |
oiaohm | http://lifehacker.com/software/dictionary/remove-misspelled-words-from-your-firefox-dictionary-244497.php << Here. Of course you can add dictioraries as extentions schestowitz | Jun 05 13:57 |
schestowitz | Patents Roundup: What Bilski Means to IBM, Microsoft; Patent Trolls Still Win < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/what-bilski-means-to-ibm-ms/ > | Jun 05 14:03 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: thanks, exactly what I needed | Jun 05 14:03 |
fewa | i always find aspell just doesnt have enough bredth | Jun 05 14:04 |
fewa | not enought words | Jun 05 14:04 |
fewa | im always adding legitimate words | Jun 05 14:04 |
schestowitz | I don't have such a file in GNU//Linux | Jun 05 14:06 |
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oiaohm | Have you added any words? schestowitz | Jun 05 14:07 |
schestowitz | YEs, many | Jun 05 14:08 |
schestowitz | This article is from 2007 | Jun 05 14:08 |
schestowitz | The file may have moves | Jun 05 14:08 |
schestowitz | *ved | Jun 05 14:08 |
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fewa | schestowitz, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08gfh_6sbQI | Jun 05 14:30 |
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fewa | election is tomarrow | Jun 05 14:30 |
tacone | http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/node/152 aggregated on the official ubuntu planet | Jun 05 14:30 |
fewa | could me interesting | Jun 05 14:32 |
tacone | interesting comments also. many people are concerned | Jun 05 14:32 |
tacone | schestowitz give a look. | Jun 05 14:32 |
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schestowitz | Group post: How Novell Harms GNU/Linux Programming < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/monodevelop-windows-monoculture/ > | Jun 05 14:39 |
fewa | embrace, extend, extinguish | Jun 05 14:41 |
fewa | clear as day | Jun 05 14:41 |
schestowitz | tacone: thanks, queued | Jun 05 14:41 |
tacone | and declared. | Jun 05 14:41 |
tacone | schestowitz: nothing important. but no flame yet in the comments, just mono concerned people | Jun 05 14:42 |
tacone | oh anyone knows a good way to create countdowns? | Jun 05 14:45 |
fewa | what type? | Jun 05 14:45 |
tacone | end of the world in 15 days | Jun 05 14:46 |
tacone | 14 days.. etc. | Jun 05 14:46 |
fewa | http://coolepochcountdown.com/ | Jun 05 14:46 |
fewa | hmm it doesnt have relive the momeny anymore | Jun 05 14:47 |
tacone | i'm about to do something i don't know how many people will like :) | Jun 05 14:47 |
fewa | ut there are alot of videos | Jun 05 14:48 |
fewa | just put javascript:partytime(); in the addressbar | Jun 05 14:50 |
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fewa | look at the MONO licence notes | Jun 05 15:10 |
fewa | Novell makes a public statement that puting software on ROM violates the LGPL | Jun 05 15:11 |
oiaohm | ROM remember what is a CD-R. | Jun 05 15:12 |
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oiaohm | It is a removeable ROM fewa | Jun 05 15:13 |
mib_dya64o | putting what software ? | Jun 05 15:13 |
oiaohm | So by Novell statement you cannot make a livecd out of it. | Jun 05 15:13 |
fewa | yeah, its a interpretation that was not intended, nor used by anyone else | Jun 05 15:13 |
oiaohm | Only flash sticks. | Jun 05 15:13 |
oiaohm | So every ISO download of Ubuntu is illegal. | Jun 05 15:13 |
mib_dya64o | ROM and CD-R are not the same things | Jun 05 15:13 |
fewa | http://pastebin.com/m50a420cc | Jun 05 15:13 |
oiaohm | Pressed CD are pure ROM mib_dya64o | Jun 05 15:14 |
oiaohm | That Ubuntu sends out by the way. | Jun 05 15:14 |
fewa | if you look at the GPL-3 it is very clear, that if the distrobuter cannot modify the software, there is no obligation | Jun 05 15:14 |
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mib_dya64o | ROM is an addressable IC (Chip), that is considered a computer component, or at best firmware | Jun 05 15:14 |
oiaohm | Wrong. | Jun 05 15:15 |
mib_dya64o | between the difference between soft and hardware | Jun 05 15:15 |
oiaohm | CD-ROM | Jun 05 15:15 |
oiaohm | What are the last 3 letters. | Jun 05 15:15 |
mib_dya64o | CD is a serial media storage device | Jun 05 15:15 |
oiaohm | ROM is a class of storage. | Jun 05 15:15 |
oiaohm | Does not have to be a IC chip. | Jun 05 15:15 |
mib_dya64o | not a rondom access Read Only memory | Jun 05 15:15 |
mib_dya64o | its more a system component than a class of storage, | Jun 05 15:16 |
MinceR | not as serial as tape :> | Jun 05 15:16 |
mib_dya64o | I would not call L1,l2,L3 caches as media storage. | Jun 05 15:16 |
oiaohm | Compact Disc, read-only-memory << CD-ROM expanded mib_dya64o | Jun 05 15:16 |
oiaohm | Notice something. | Jun 05 15:16 |
oiaohm | CD-ROM is a Compact Disc shaped ROM. | Jun 05 15:17 |
oiaohm | Novel clearly said no ROM. | Jun 05 15:17 |
oiaohm | That includes CD-ROM. | Jun 05 15:17 |
oiaohm | If they meant IC chips they should have limited it. | Jun 05 15:18 |
fewa | they are purposefully misinterpreting the LGPL | Jun 05 15:18 |
oiaohm | Read only memory comes in a few different forms. | Jun 05 15:18 |
mib_dya64o | what does the type of media have to do with a license ? | Jun 05 15:18 |
fewa | read the pastebin | Jun 05 15:18 |
mib_dya64o | considering GPL is basically a copyright type contract. | Jun 05 15:18 |
fewa | thats LICENCE from the mono tarball | Jun 05 15:18 |
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mib_dya64o | if the code was written on a bit of scrap paper as long as it has the license and copyright notice its level IMHO :) | Jun 05 15:20 |
mib_dya64o | legal | Jun 05 15:20 |
fewa | they are applying a stretched interpretation of 6.a, b, 7 of the lgpl. | Jun 05 15:20 |
oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Read-only_memory Pays to understand. | Jun 05 15:21 |
mib_dya64o | dont need wikipedia to tell me what a ROM is my friend | Jun 05 15:22 |
oiaohm | Basically CD-R CD-ROM DVD-R's DVD-ROM's are all ROM class. cd-rw and other rewritable medias are not. | Jun 05 15:22 |
fewa | schestowitz, you reading this | Jun 05 15:22 |
oiaohm | Thinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono. | Jun 05 15:23 |
oiaohm | Its like RAM the first large form of that was like CRT screens with a reader. Using phospher lag to hold the data. Neither ROM or RAM is linked to chips really. They are just classifications. | Jun 05 15:25 |
schestowitz | fewa: what about? | Jun 05 15:25 |
mib_dya64o | I was just making the point that in this context that I would assume they were refering to ROM and RAM inside a Computer and not removable media, i could be wrong | Jun 05 15:25 |
oiaohm | You don't assume with law. | Jun 05 15:25 |
fewa | http://pastebin.com/m50a420cc | Jun 05 15:26 |
oiaohm | If you take the max meaning with law. | Jun 05 15:26 |
oiaohm | Also bios roms on a lot of devices are removal media too from there sockets mib_dya64o | Jun 05 15:26 |
fewa | ^^ thats the LICENCE file of the mono tarball | Jun 05 15:26 |
schestowitz | Oh, I see.. | Jun 05 15:27 |
fewa | if that doesn't make people see the legal aggression of mono, i don't know what will | Jun 05 15:28 |
schestowitz | fewa: but what to point out? | Jun 05 15:28 |
schestowitz | Where is the ambiguous part? | Jun 05 15:28 |
mib_dya64o | muray code and paper tape, punched cards were soe of the ealiest I/O and the memory was more like dynamic RAM, but was magnetic core memory that required constant refreshing | Jun 05 15:29 |
*schestowitz does a post on mono ATM | Jun 05 15:29 | |
fewa | <oiaohm> Thinking distributions used pressed cd/dvds that a pure rom there is no way they can ship mono. | Jun 05 15:29 |
oiaohm | Examples of meaning under law don't have to be counted. consider software burned into a ROM, systems where end users would not be able to upgrade | Jun 05 15:30 |
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oiaohm | From the consider to upgrade is what you are not allowed to do. | Jun 05 15:31 |
oiaohm | After that they give examples. | Jun 05 15:31 |
oiaohm | Yep loop hole contract. | Jun 05 15:31 |
fewa | but even if the software is burned onto ROM, why would that violate the LGPL | Jun 05 15:32 |
mib_dya64o | If you read it oiaohm you'll see they are refering to the IC type ROM in embedded systems not CD-ROMS | Jun 05 15:32 |
mib_dya64o | I dont see why it would | Jun 05 15:32 |
oiaohm | By law the examples don't count. | Jun 05 15:32 |
oiaohm | If they wanted to exclude a rom type they should have said. | Jun 05 15:32 |
mib_dya64o | Im not sure about all of the LGPL but if its burnt into a ROM (chip) and you are unable to read it it may violate the view the code bit? | Jun 05 15:33 |
oiaohm | They should have put chip | Jun 05 15:34 |
oiaohm | They did not. | Jun 05 15:34 |
oiaohm | So they screwed it up. | Jun 05 15:34 |
mib_dya64o | They did say it, and used ROM as the example | Jun 05 15:34 |
oiaohm | Law. | Jun 05 15:34 |
oiaohm | Those examples only are a guide have no legal meaning. | Jun 05 15:34 |
fewa | oiaohm, still, they are intrepreting that executing LGPL code with non-GPL-compatible code on a ROM is a violation of the LGPL | Jun 05 15:35 |
oiaohm | Common mistake people make with device licence contracts mib_dya64o. | Jun 05 15:35 |
oiaohm | Is doing something that is not in the examples then getting hammered for breach of contract. | Jun 05 15:36 |
oiaohm | they trying to argue the examples suggested that it was not this. | Jun 05 15:36 |
oiaohm | Legally it don't hold. | Jun 05 15:36 |
oiaohm | If my view is wrong Novell need to release a statement proving legal clarity on the issue. | Jun 05 15:38 |
mib_dya64o | Thats what that statement is, I guess if the FSF does not agree with it, they will not ratify it, or they will take appropriate action | Jun 05 15:39 |
schestowitz | Some illustrative images in "Microsoft is Using Mono and MonoDevelop to Leverage Windows and .NET" < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/embrace-extend-and-monodevelop/ > | Jun 05 15:40 |
oiaohm | Really at min Novell need to be requested to publicly clear up that rom statement. | Jun 05 15:41 |
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mib_dya64o | Did you read it ? its quite clear. | Jun 05 15:42 |
oiaohm | # | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | an embedded console, a game console that imposes limitations | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | # | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | on the distribution and access to the code, a phone platform | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | # | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | that prevents end users from upgrading Moonlight | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | all that is example. | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | No legal meaning mib_dya64o | Jun 05 15:43 |
oiaohm | You say clear its quite clear ROM format is forbid. | Jun 05 15:44 |
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oiaohm | That would be the contract take of what they wrote. | Jun 05 15:44 |
fewa | just a note, because of the way the LGPL works, additional rules cannot be attached to it, what novell is doing here is not alliterating contract statements, but instead pontificating their interpretation of it. | Jun 05 15:46 |
fewa | perhaps | Jun 05 15:46 |
oiaohm | Still it need to be cleared up. | Jun 05 15:47 |
fewa | *interpretation of the copyright licence | Jun 05 15:47 |
oiaohm | system is also one of the worst words you use in a contract without a define. | Jun 05 15:47 |
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oiaohm | In this case due to system not being defined it could reduce down to being the cd itself. | Jun 05 15:48 |
fewa | oiaohm, its not a contract | Jun 05 15:48 |
*schestowitz RUBS EYES | Jun 05 15:48 | |
schestowitz | No way: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1019495131.shtml (British Government Says No To Three Strikes) | Jun 05 15:48 |
schestowitz | Did they get Gordy et al tipsy? | Jun 05 15:49 |
schestowitz | oiaohm, others: http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1717095134.shtml (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much) | Jun 05 15:50 |
schestowitz | That's the host of FSDaily and FS Magazine | Jun 05 15:50 |
oiaohm | That is a contract. fewa. Shortest contract is 1 line of text. | Jun 05 15:50 |
schestowitz | "From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo." | Jun 05 15:50 |
schestowitz | BN has a 1773 host now | Jun 05 15:51 |
schestowitz | 1337 | Jun 05 15:51 |
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oiaohm | Something with what I do fewa and mib_dya64o is that I require a full understanding of contract law. Assessment and aquirement of software to use embedded. Lot of people fail to spot contracts. | Jun 05 15:53 |
fewa | oiaohm, but the lgpl states that it itsself cannot be encumbered by additional restrictions | Jun 05 15:55 |
fewa | so any contract or intrepretation applied by novell must lie within the confines of the LGPL | Jun 05 15:55 |
oiaohm | ROM state with lgpl has not been tested in court of law. | Jun 05 15:56 |
oiaohm | So applying the restriction to rom could be betting that the wording of LGPL does not protect rom usage. | Jun 05 15:57 |
fewa | exactly | Jun 05 15:57 |
oiaohm | So Novell little extra contract there could be valid. | Jun 05 15:57 |
mib_dya64o | Thats what they are saying, they are saying as they cannot comply with LGPL, they will re-license it for specific situations like embedded consols | Jun 05 15:57 |
mib_dya64o | There not adding to the LGPL, they are re-licensing it. | Jun 05 15:58 |
fewa | mib_dya64o, not in that document | Jun 05 15:58 |
oiaohm | The addon contract reactions with LGPL is grey. | Jun 05 15:59 |
schestowitz | Major Novell news!! "The civil suit filed by Kerry and Pamela Novell claims that Darin E. Wanless watched Pamela Novell undress through her window." http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/jun/04/lawsuit-brought-against-peeper/ | Jun 05 15:59 |
schestowitz | Ooohhh. Nakes Novell... | Jun 05 15:59 |
schestowitz | *Naked.. | Jun 05 15:59 |
oiaohm | It could be really bad to presume its wrong then it turns out solid. | Jun 05 15:59 |
mib_dya64o | gives Novell the flexibility to relicense the code for enbedded systems static linking or commercial settings where the LGPL can not be used. | Jun 05 16:00 |
mib_dya64o | should be in quotes | Jun 05 16:00 |
oiaohm | The or commerical setting. | Jun 05 16:00 |
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oiaohm | Does that cover other commerical distributions. | Jun 05 16:01 |
oiaohm | There are a lot of little nasty questions. | Jun 05 16:01 |
oiaohm | It has to be one of the most vague contracts I have seen. | Jun 05 16:01 |
mib_dya64o | This code is dual licensed under the LGPL or commercial licenses. | Jun 05 16:01 |
mib_dya64o | again quotes | Jun 05 16:01 |
fewa | oiaohm, purposefully | Jun 05 16:01 |
mib_dya64o | yes | Jun 05 16:02 |
oiaohm | My training makes me read it as it worst. | Jun 05 16:02 |
oiaohm | Not allow myself to read it with hope they are kind. | Jun 05 16:02 |
oiaohm | Hope they are kind is how to really get into trouble. | Jun 05 16:02 |
schestowitz | Lots of Mono today... I hope you're reading us, but just in case: | Jun 05 16:03 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/embrace-extend-and-monodevelop/ | Jun 05 16:03 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/monodevelop-windows-monoculture/ | Jun 05 16:03 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/05/mono-monologue/ | Jun 05 16:03 |
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oiaohm | licence alone on mono should give any commercial distributions second thoughts. | Jun 05 16:05 |
mib_dya64o | if history has taught me anything, (and it probably hasn't) it's that licenses can be changed anytime to almost anything. | Jun 05 16:08 |
schestowitz | Excellent Novell analysis from Dr. Oliver Diedrich: http://www.h-online.com/open/Novell-On-the-road-to-becoming-a-Linux-business--/features/113461 | Jun 05 16:08 |
oiaohm | Rule one of software acquirement licence vague don't walk, run for the nearest exist. | Jun 05 16:08 |
oiaohm | exist/exit | Jun 05 16:09 |
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oiaohm | If novel had not provided that rom statement in a count of law you could have argued fair interperation. | Jun 05 16:10 |
oiaohm | with LGPL and basically walked. | Jun 05 16:10 |
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oiaohm | mib_dya64o: licenses can only be changed if number you are the owner of the code. number two the licence gives you permission to change it. | Jun 05 16:14 |
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oiaohm | But a licence is a contract. So if you where granted a license with X Y an Z terms it cannot be changed after you have been given it. | Jun 05 16:15 |
satipera | Hello all, Roy I have had you on RSS for about a week or so now. Have you ever been on the receiving end of any legal action? | Jun 05 16:15 |
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mib_dya64o | I assume when you "change" the license you are no longer bound by the previous license, as long as you own the original code and Hay satipera | Jun 05 16:16 |
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oiaohm | You cannot take back licences all ready granted under the previous mib_dya64o | Jun 05 16:17 |
oiaohm | Unless that was written into the licence | Jun 05 16:17 |
mib_dya64o | yes, you can ask the BitKeeper guy,, | Jun 05 16:18 |
oiaohm | BitKeeper licence had a clause allowing it. | Jun 05 16:18 |
oiaohm | Yes why it pays to read licences carefully. | Jun 05 16:18 |
mib_dya64o | few if any licenses would not have such a cluse, including the GPL | Jun 05 16:19 |
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oiaohm | GPL only applies if you break GPL's conditions. | Jun 05 16:20 |
fewa | calling such a license a license is ludicris, it subserviance | Jun 05 16:20 |
oiaohm | So GPL is basically for life. | Jun 05 16:20 |
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oiaohm | Ok at last 70 years after the authors death. | Jun 05 16:21 |
oiaohm | last/least | Jun 05 16:21 |
fewa | :P | Jun 05 16:21 |
oiaohm | But for our case life. | Jun 05 16:21 |
fewa | the last authors death | Jun 05 16:21 |
oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 05 16:21 |
mib_dya64o | It too can (and has) been changed, and its up to interpretation what "IN THE SPIRIT" means in strict legal terms | Jun 05 16:21 |
fewa | so when the code no longer runs | Jun 05 16:21 |
oiaohm | And we are long gone. | Jun 05 16:21 |
oiaohm | From out point of view life. | Jun 05 16:22 |
fewa | mib_dya64o, it is not changed, it mearly gives licensors a _option_ to move to a new license | Jun 05 16:22 |
mib_dya64o | the LGPL ? | Jun 05 16:22 |
fewa | very important point to take note of | Jun 05 16:22 |
fewa | the IN THE SPIRIT, new licences clause | Jun 05 16:22 |
oiaohm | LGPL 2.1 or latter clause. | Jun 05 16:22 |
mib_dya64o | yes that is an extension of the GPLv3 | Jun 05 16:22 |
oiaohm | Not all GPL have the latter. | Jun 05 16:23 |
oiaohm | Novell releases a lot locked to a version. | Jun 05 16:23 |
fewa | linus on git places himself as the decider of weather it can be relicenced under a new GNU license | Jun 05 16:24 |
oiaohm | And the Linux kernel. | Jun 05 16:24 |
oiaohm | It don't have the or latter option either. | Jun 05 16:24 |
fewa | http://git.kernel.org/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;f=COPYING | Jun 05 16:26 |
fewa | so it would apply retroactively if he approved of a new license | Jun 05 16:26 |
mib_dya64o | for the Kernel ? i have doubts if he would be able to re-license it due to the large number of copyright holders | Jun 05 16:27 |
oiaohm | There is a legal way todo it. | Jun 05 16:28 |
oiaohm | But its slow. | Jun 05 16:28 |
mib_dya64o | also a software way to do it, find who you can, and re-write the code copyrighted to those you cant find or who wont give permission | Jun 05 16:29 |
schestowitz | satipera: hi | Jun 05 16:29 |
oiaohm | You would have to advertise the change basically world wide. Then wait 7 years before you could apply it if no one answered against it. | Jun 05 16:29 |
schestowitz | Hold on, just catching up... | Jun 05 16:29 |
oiaohm | Or do the rewrite mib_dya64o | Jun 05 16:29 |
schestowitz | satipera: no legal documents sent to me, no... I think PJ got some | Jun 05 16:29 |
schestowitz | China blocking websites on Tiananmen anniversary http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25489/1054/ | Jun 05 16:29 |
schestowitz | Kind of like AUssie next year | Jun 05 16:30 |
schestowitz | The ConroyFilter(R) | Jun 05 16:30 |
fewa | america has been doing thankfully better on that front | Jun 05 16:30 |
fewa | (although it is no paradise) | Jun 05 16:30 |
schestowitz | SUSE people sometimes rattle the cage, with involvement of Novell people. | Jun 05 16:31 |
schestowitz | But nothing legal. They don't open that can of worms | Jun 05 16:31 |
mib_dya64o | when your prime minister speaks chinese, what do you expect from Australia. | Jun 05 16:32 |
mib_dya64o | On the leaked banned list was "canteen.com.au" because it had "teen" in it, but its a teen cancer helping site and group !! | Jun 05 16:34 |
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fewa | geeze teen is a banned word | Jun 05 16:36 |
fewa | how much myspace does that block? or are there "free speech zones" that dont get blocked? | Jun 05 16:37 |
trmanco | I've just installed rockbox on my ipod | Jun 05 16:37 |
schestowitz | teen can be 19 | Jun 05 16:37 |
trmanco | :) | Jun 05 16:37 |
schestowitz | iWHat?!! | Jun 05 16:38 |
trmanco | I do have an ipod you know :-P | Jun 05 16:39 |
schestowitz | http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=10209 | Jun 05 16:39 |
trmanco | it was a present | Jun 05 16:39 |
fewa | schestowitz, thats not my point, my point is that they are banning speech of a whole generation of people just because they identify themselves | Jun 05 16:39 |
schestowitz | MinceR's g/f: http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/jobbydouche-2.jpg | Jun 05 16:39 |
trmanco | I hvan't used it in a long time though, more that a year | Jun 05 16:39 |
fewa | its like banning the word gay, or liberal, or christian | Jun 05 16:39 |
trmanco | I finally put it to good use with free software | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | fewa: the word "boycott" is strong | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | ALso "protest" | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | "Union organisers" | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | ooooooh.. NASTY! | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | Those agitators.. | Jun 05 16:40 |
fewa | sexy union action | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | In Russia, a lot of the news MUST be positive | Jun 05 16:40 |
schestowitz | fewa: TEEN union action | Jun 05 16:41 |
schestowitz | teen gang action | Jun 05 16:41 |
schestowitz | *ERRRR* | Jun 05 16:41 |
*schestowitz flagged as offender | Jun 05 16:41 | |
tacone | schestowitz: tomorrow i'll be away | Jun 05 16:56 |
tacone | i scheduled a post about open sourcing launchpad with a countdown to embed on sites | Jun 05 16:57 |
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nicktastic | Anyone know what happened to fsdaily?v | Jun 05 17:17 |
satipera | Roy I just read your answer, I thought perhaps you were like Private Eye mag worried about the mail in the morning in case of letters from lawyers. | Jun 05 17:18 |
schestowitz | nicktastic: host died | Jun 05 17:19 |
schestowitz | shut down by FTC for spam | Jun 05 17:19 |
schestowitz | So FSDaily moved | Jun 05 17:20 |
schestowitz | satipera: what would Novell go after? | Jun 05 17:20 |
schestowitz | Trademarks in domain name? | Jun 05 17:20 |
schestowitz | They should endure criticism like grown-ups | Jun 05 17:20 |
nicktastic | schestowitz: Oh, that one in California | Jun 05 17:21 |
nicktastic | Thanks for the info | Jun 05 17:21 |
schestowitz | "From the details, it sounds similar to the story from late last year when upstream service providers pulled the plug on another hosting firm, McColo (due to public pressure, not gov't intervention), and cut off huge amounts of spam, since so many spammers relied on botnets through McColo." | Jun 05 17:24 |
schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090604/1717095134.shtml (FTC Shuts Down Popular Scammer ISP; But Doesn't Seem To Be Impacting Spam That Much) | Jun 05 17:24 |
schestowitz | http://virtuallyspeaking.ning.com/events/cryptographer-security-expert | Jun 05 17:25 |
schestowitz | "The bankruptcy of GM will cause unnecessary pain and unfairness — for instance, to people who bought cars with defects — and could easily have been avoided. Even worse, although the US will take majority control of GM, Obama has no interest in changing the foolish priorities that landed GM in bankruptcy." | Jun 05 17:26 |
schestowitz | http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#05%20June%202009%20%28Bankruptcy%20of%20GM%29 What almost amuses me is that he doesn't talk about the layoffs | Jun 05 17:26 |
schestowitz | Where will women go now? < http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortion/ > | Jun 05 17:27 |
schestowitz | UN Rejects Calls for Sri Lanka War Crimes Inquiry < http://www.buzzle.com/articles/272525.html > | Jun 05 17:28 |
MinceR | schestowitz: -_- | Jun 05 17:28 |
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satipera | Roy, good point it seems balanced and accurate, besides they could not go after every who hosts the information | Jun 05 17:39 |
schestowitz | FS Daily is down again.. | Jun 05 17:39 |
satipera | every person | Jun 05 17:39 |
schestowitz | Crusades... meh.. http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488 | Jun 05 17:40 |
satipera | bye all, have fun | Jun 05 17:40 |
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schestowitz | ARMs race: Qualcomm on Smartbooks: Smartphone Experience in a Larger Form Factor < http://jkontherun.com/2009/06/02/qualcomm-on-smartbooks-smartphone-experience-in-a-larger-form-factor/ > | Jun 05 17:42 |
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zer0c00l | try typing "linux" in www.bing.com :D | Jun 05 17:44 |
schestowitz | I never visited the Bong | Jun 05 17:45 |
schestowitz | B0rg's Bong.com | Jun 05 17:45 |
trmanco | http://www.bing.com/search?q=microsoft+sucks&go=&form=QBRE&filt=all | Jun 05 17:46 |
trmanco | nice and relevant | Jun 05 17:46 |
schestowitz | Is Acer using Moblin or Android? Now I'm confused.. http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133889 | Jun 05 17:49 |
schestowitz | Opera looks nice.. I'd use it if it was Free software... http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-First-Beta-of-Opera-10-for-Linux-Shines-113266.shtml | Jun 05 17:50 |
schestowitz | trmanco: new Linux Caixa Magica 14 is out | Jun 05 17:52 |
schestowitz | Worth blogging in openmania perhaps | Jun 05 17:53 |
trmanco | yeah, I've read that, will do, thanks | Jun 05 17:53 |
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schestowitz | This guy calls Vista7 just "Vista 2": http://www.palluxo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=512:my-name-is-mac-and-i-am-a-linux&catid=90:blogs&Itemid=284 | Jun 05 17:56 |
schestowitz | trmanco: did you see the Spanish pres video? | Jun 05 17:56 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/05/0082488 | Jun 05 17:56 |
trmanco | schestowitz, of what? | Jun 05 17:57 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I'm not quite sure what to make about that | Jun 05 17:57 |
schestowitz | Not seen those who use the military to spread their religion? | Jun 05 17:59 |
schestowitz | Like spreading bibles in Afghanistan? | Jun 05 17:59 |
schestowitz | trmanco: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/04/microsoft-wants-spain/ | Jun 05 17:59 |
schestowitz | This reminds of me the Portugates incident last year | Jun 05 18:00 |
mib_dya64o | like the salvation army ? | Jun 05 18:00 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: WordPerfect Mail says "Copyright Yahoo" | Jun 05 18:00 |
DaemonFC | is this some rebranded thing? | Jun 05 18:00 |
schestowitz | Microsoft loves Spain like a poodle loves a rubber ball that it's humping. | Jun 05 18:00 |
schestowitz | Microsoft looks at everything it touches asking, "how can we monetise this?" | Jun 05 18:01 |
schestowitz | Even charities | Jun 05 18:01 |
schestowitz | Like the Aussie ones that boycott it now | Jun 05 18:01 |
schestowitz | mib_dya64o: I guess so. It leads to resentment there. Why make things even worse in Afghanistan? | Jun 05 18:01 |
trmanco | heh | Jun 05 18:01 |
trmanco | good for extremadura | Jun 05 18:02 |
trmanco | :D | Jun 05 18:02 |
schestowitz | Yeah | Jun 05 18:02 |
trmanco | it seems they didn't go with the flow | Jun 05 18:02 |
schestowitz | Bill Gates... Bill Gates.........Bill Gates.....Bill Gates... | Jun 05 18:02 |
schestowitz | I think he has a man.crash(); | Jun 05 18:02 |
schestowitz | *crush | Jun 05 18:02 |
trmanco | lol | Jun 05 18:02 |
MinceR | "I was playing Unreal Tournament (the old one, not any of the 200x series, so not a hugely intensive game) in coherence mode, and my computer shut down to prevent heat damage." | Jun 05 18:03 |
MinceR | sounds like crApple failed at cooling | Jun 05 18:03 |
schestowitz | BN will soon go past the 20k comments milestone | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | and reducing clock speed to save the hw without shutting down | Jun 05 18:04 |
schestowitz | Over 6500 posts now | Jun 05 18:04 |
mib_dya64o | HAL + 1 = IBM...... VMS + 1 = WNT (Win NT) | Jun 05 18:04 |
schestowitz | MinceR: bull | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | or maybe it just crashed | Jun 05 18:04 |
schestowitz | Apple is cool | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | lol | Jun 05 18:04 |
schestowitz | Just not *that* kind of cool. | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | lol | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | it's no kind of cool | Jun 05 18:04 |
schestowitz | Keep apples in the fringe | Jun 05 18:04 |
MinceR | well, except for the conformists' kind of "cool" | Jun 05 18:05 |
schestowitz | Keep mainstream at the fringe | Jun 05 18:05 |
schestowitz | *fridge ^^ | Jun 05 18:05 |
MinceR | :D | Jun 05 18:05 |
MinceR | nice typo | Jun 05 18:05 |
mib_dya64o | you were right the first time LOL | Jun 05 18:05 |
schestowitz | MinceR: that's Mac mentality | Jun 05 18:05 |
schestowitz | Realiy: Mac crashes | Jun 05 18:05 |
schestowitz | Fanboy: Apple saved me [sic] day | Jun 05 18:05 |
mib_dya64o | that could be a good linux motto !!! | Jun 05 18:05 |
MinceR | so i was saying that maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage" because he can't believe that macs can and do crash | Jun 05 18:06 |
schestowitz | "zong!! it was oiverheating, I tells ya!" | Jun 05 18:06 |
MinceR | indeed | Jun 05 18:06 |
schestowitz | *LOL* | Jun 05 18:06 |
schestowitz | " maybe it just crashed and he decided it "shut down to prevent heat damage"" | Jun 05 18:06 |
schestowitz | "Sheesh... let's make it seem like a suicide" | Jun 05 18:06 |
schestowitz | "Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers* Got to make Apple look innocent *whispers*" | Jun 05 18:07 |
schestowitz | Let me find something.. | Jun 05 18:07 |
schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&ei=fFQpSr0j0o2MB_WNqeYK&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=apple+anderson+gates+accounting&spell=1 | Jun 05 18:07 |
schestowitz | Enjoy. Watch how all the fanboys and Apple execs jump to defend Jobs after accounting fraud | Jun 05 18:08 |
schestowitz | Oops. | Jun 05 18:08 |
schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=apple+anderson+jobs+accounting&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&c2coff=1&q=apple+anderson+jobs+accounting&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi= | Jun 05 18:08 |
*schestowitz never had him system shut down for "cooling". Ever. | Jun 05 18:09 | |
schestowitz | └─(18:09 $)─> uptime | Jun 05 18:10 |
schestowitz | 18:09:24 up 93 days, 3:27, 2 users, load average: 1.65, 1.28, 1.16 | Jun 05 18:10 |
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MinceR | i hope he doesn't get away with this | Jun 05 18:13 |
schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184574/netbooks-exist-microsoft "He said that the Vole wants to "redefine mini-notebooks" that Intel has categorized as netbooks. The new Volish term will be "low cost small notebook PC". | Jun 05 18:21 |
schestowitz | " | Jun 05 18:21 |
schestowitz | MS is determined to kill netbooks | Jun 05 18:21 |
schestowitz | Silly bugger | Jun 05 18:21 |
schestowitz | He can't ignore ARM | Jun 05 18:22 |
schestowitz | MinceR: he's rich. In the US he can get away with everything, even murder (c/f OJ) | Jun 05 18:22 |
schestowitz | Next week I will post some Ballmer crimes | Jun 05 18:23 |
schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184576/dell-lebanon-crisis "HARDWARE FLOGGER Dell has been sued by Lebanon, the town, not the country, for failing to deliver promised jobs in exchange for tax breaks." | Jun 05 18:24 |
mib_dya64o | those crazy Lebanese, its all Clingers fault. | Jun 05 18:25 |
schestowitz | Malware steals ATM accounts and PIN codes < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184568/malware-steals-atm-accounts-pin-codes > | Jun 05 18:26 |
schestowitz | mib_dya64o: should see Japan.. | Jun 05 18:26 |
schestowitz | http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/japanese-software-regulator-bans-rape-games-20090605-byc5.html | Jun 05 18:26 |
schestowitz | Basically, if I read this correctly, you can't put women in a FPS | Jun 05 18:27 |
schestowitz | That would in fact count as "rape" | Jun 05 18:27 |
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fewa | japaneese stuff can get pretty nasty schestowitz | Jun 05 18:28 |
schestowitz | Acer Android netbook to dual boot Windows < http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/139969 > But Microsoft says "netbooks" are no more. | Jun 05 18:28 |
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schestowitz | fewa: katanas? | Jun 05 18:29 |
fewa | the game regulation | Jun 05 18:29 |
schestowitz | Oh, I see. I thought you meant they were more violent\ | Jun 05 18:30 |
schestowitz | Same in Germany | Jun 05 18:30 |
fewa | microsoft is going to try to prevent netbooks from getting better | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | There's also that sword incident where a gamer from japan warned in IM before going mad in the streets killing real people | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | fewa: or cheaper | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | ARM foils it | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | Microsoft is not sure what to do | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | It's losing a lot of money there | Jun 05 18:32 |
fewa | they have no control over ARM | Jun 05 18:32 |
schestowitz | Intel must not help their cartel | Jun 05 18:32 |
fewa | but still... dell's new netbooks arnt neccicarily better, but they cost more | Jun 05 18:33 |
fewa | the mini 10, 12 over the discontinues 9 | Jun 05 18:33 |
schestowitz | It is a real tragedy that ExxonMobil is destroying the world while AstroTurfing to deny it http://www.prwatch.org/node/8400 "According to ExxonMobil's 2008 Corporate Citizenship Report and Worldwide Giving Report, the oil giant is still funding global warming skeptics. " | Jun 05 18:35 |
schestowitz | travesty rather | Jun 05 18:35 |
DaemonFC | 2 TB hard drive for $229 | Jun 05 18:36 |
schestowitz | All that proprietary hardware is messy business | Jun 05 18:36 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 05 18:36 |
fewa | http://www.google.com/search?name=f&hl=en&q=shell+nigeria | Jun 05 18:36 |
fewa | shell pays out google | Jun 05 18:36 |
schestowitz | Can it? | Jun 05 18:36 |
schestowitz | gates invests in that killing of Nigerian children | Jun 05 18:36 |
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schestowitz | Through BP for the most part | Jun 05 18:36 |
fewa | or they changed their rangs | Jun 05 18:36 |
DaemonFC | I still haven't managed to overrun 500 gigs | Jun 05 18:37 |
schestowitz | Videos here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/the-money-question-influence/ | Jun 05 18:37 |
schestowitz | U.S. Turns to Body Counts in Afghanistan < http://www.prwatch.org/node/8398 > | Jun 05 18:38 |
schestowitz | "But when the Heartland Institute talks about "real science," it is hard to ignore the fact that for years they have defended the policy agenda of the tobacco industry without disclosing that they were funded by Phillip Morris." http://www.prwatch.org/node/8397T | Jun 05 18:39 |
schestowitz | The PR industry is criminal | Jun 05 18:39 |
schestowitz | Very much so, | Jun 05 18:39 |
schestowitz | But the press won't cover it | Jun 05 18:39 |
schestowitz | Because, needless to say, it's part of this plot | Jun 05 18:39 |
fewa | google has given corporate sites generally huge pagerank AFAIK | Jun 05 18:40 |
fewa | however it works idk | Jun 05 18:41 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Have you mentioned anything about Microsoft's non-standard pop3 setup? | Jun 05 18:41 |
DaemonFC | on Live/Hotmail | Jun 05 18:41 |
DaemonFC | the only non-Microsoft email client I've successfully attached to it with was SeaMonkey Mail/Thunderbird | Jun 05 18:42 |
DaemonFC | if your email client doesn't support TLS, it won't work | Jun 05 18:43 |
fewa | don't make your name include a owned name of another organization | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | fewa: when? | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | Google? | Jun 05 18:43 |
fewa | ie foo@hotmail | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | Google is now lobbying for more standards | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | Shoving SVG into IE | Jun 05 18:43 |
fewa | you have given control when you do that | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | Cause MS won't do it | Jun 05 18:43 |
fewa | google is doing some really great stuff | Jun 05 18:43 |
schestowitz | Could Vinje and others in ECIS force Microsoft to finally support Web standards as timbl requests? SVG is a very basic component that's required by Web applications, i.e. the "middleware" which terrifies Microsoft. | Jun 05 18:43 |
fewa | wave is great | Jun 05 18:44 |
fewa | open standards | Jun 05 18:44 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: they changed a while back | Jun 05 18:44 |
schestowitz | No access from some old mail client | Jun 05 18:44 |
schestowitz | I've just contacted IBM re SVG | Jun 05 18:44 |
DaemonFC | WordPerfect Mail can't connect, and neither can Eudora | Jun 05 18:44 |
schestowitz | They should tell Bill and Steve: stop fighting the Web or face prison | Jun 05 18:44 |
schestowitz | These people are doing damage to technology like no other company | Jun 05 18:45 |
DaemonFC | Is Microsoft just doing this to make it difficult to not use their clients? | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | Microsoft is about greed, not thirst for knowledge | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | MiddleAgesSoft | Jun 05 18:45 |
fewa | schestowitz, bill gave another incriminating desposition | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | When? | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | Novell? | Jun 05 18:45 |
fewa | the one analyzed on groklaw | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | BilG... | Jun 05 18:45 |
fewa | yeah | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | tagline hmmm... | Jun 05 18:45 |
schestowitz | The criminal everyone loves | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | The press deemphasises the crimes | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | It's a taboo | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | And they attack "dissent" | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | His taxx-evading scheme gets glory | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | fewa: yes, I saw that | Jun 05 18:46 |
schestowitz | China's hi-tech answer to cheats < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8084582.stm > China's mass-handling of everything is daunting at times. | Jun 05 18:48 |
schestowitz | I love how the Linux VP of IBM is a total n00b at Linux.. http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=3661 | Jun 05 18:49 |
schestowitz | Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinux | Jun 05 18:50 |
schestowitz | leech.. nux | Jun 05 18:50 |
Eruaran | We had an Intel rep in the other day | Jun 05 18:50 |
Eruaran | He mentioned no one is selling many i7's | Jun 05 18:51 |
schestowitz | IBM lets all the 'beardies' and 'hippies' do the heavy lifting and then it uses its patent 'in-damn!-icaication" to maket Linux so-looo-sions without the name Linux | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | We said we were | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | We mentioned that its very fast and powerful | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | and no joke | Jun 05 18:51 |
schestowitz | Eruaran: why would they sell it? | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | he wasn't being funny | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | he said, "is it ?" | Jun 05 18:51 |
schestowitz | It's heavy, it's more than a desktop needs, and it's expensive | Jun 05 18:51 |
Eruaran | Some of our clients have plenty of use for it | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | Intel is weird | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | Maybe a marketing guy | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | The engineers know their stuff better. They also use Linux | Jun 05 18:52 |
Eruaran | yeah he knew nothing about the i7 :P | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | The managers.. well, they are criminals | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | And unless the management is tossed the company is a dead thug walking | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | Because China will run it over | Jun 05 18:52 |
Eruaran | He just goes around telling us about the latest deals and giving us posters | Jun 05 18:52 |
schestowitz | Naaa... | Jun 05 18:53 |
schestowitz | Pass on Intel where possible | Jun 05 18:53 |
schestowitz | AMD has 6-corers | Jun 05 18:53 |
Eruaran | yes | Jun 05 18:53 |
fewa | i like my Phenom quad | Jun 05 18:54 |
fewa | soo cheap | Jun 05 18:54 |
fewa | intels are overpriced | Jun 05 18:54 |
schestowitz | But they bear 'the' logo | Jun 05 18:56 |
schestowitz | The CriminalInside logo/slogan | Jun 05 18:56 |
schestowitz | Or LeechAhead | Jun 05 18:56 |
fewa | which intel spend millions making a consumer trademark | Jun 05 18:56 |
fewa | all gotten from their monopoly money | Jun 05 18:56 |
fewa | honestly, i dont think users give a shit | Jun 05 18:57 |
fewa | important thing is that intel amd-exclusion deals will stop | Jun 05 18:59 |
fewa | *is for..to stop | Jun 05 18:59 |
mib_dya64o | just noticed the KDE and the qt app suite, GIMP, Inkscape, scribus ect have been ported fully over to windows 11 | Jun 05 19:01 |
mib_dya64o | !! *11 | Jun 05 19:01 |
fewa | you mean 3.1 | Jun 05 19:01 |
MinceR | you mean !!!!111!11!11one | Jun 05 19:01 |
mib_dya64o | yes typo,,,,, ment !!!! | Jun 05 19:02 |
DaemonFC | contig.exe "C:\Tools\MinceR.exe" | Jun 05 19:02 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 05 19:02 |
mib_dya64o | They recoment "Stable 4.2.1 | Jun 05 19:03 |
schestowitz | Yahoo CEO open says quite openly that Ballmer has 'Google envy' (changing the phrase "penis envy") | Jun 05 19:05 |
schestowitz | Ballmer's is obsessed with Google's penis | Jun 05 19:06 |
schestowitz | Maybe he'll get over it by hopping mad on stage and shouting that he's the greatest man in the univrse. | Jun 05 19:07 |
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MinceR | deltree /y "C:\Program Files\Tools\DaemonFC\" | Jun 05 19:07 |
schestowitz | Analyst says economy leading some users to bypass Office 2007 < http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2980 > | Jun 05 19:07 |
schestowitz | Errrrrrrrrrrr.. maybe Office 2007 just sucks | Jun 05 19:07 |
schestowitz | Maybe it's not the economy | Jun 05 19:07 |
schestowitz | MinceR: file not found. Try undelete | Jun 05 19:08 |
MinceR | format c: /u /autotest | Jun 05 19:09 |
MinceR | (just to be sure) | Jun 05 19:09 |
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schestowitz | Why is this in Linux Journal? http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/cisco-join-dow-mdash-and-will-take-linux-it | Jun 05 19:24 |
DaemonFC | I've been editing Privoxy's default filters to fix Winamp | Jun 05 19:26 |
DaemonFC | for some reason Privoxy can't log anything in the Windows build | Jun 05 19:26 |
DaemonFC | it used to | Jun 05 19:26 |
schestowitz | Microsoft Windows botnets are used to impact the elections in Britain. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/opposition_website_ddos/ | Jun 05 19:27 |
fewa | DaemonFC, i find privoxy too broken to use | Jun 05 19:28 |
fewa | adblock works much better | Jun 05 19:28 |
fewa | with cslite and noscript | Jun 05 19:28 |
DaemonFC | Privoxy is basically good for being unbloated and effective | Jun 05 19:28 |
DaemonFC | but unfortunatelyt you will need to step in and build your own whitelists | Jun 05 19:29 |
DaemonFC | *unfortunately | Jun 05 19:29 |
fewa | noscript/cslite/adblock is much easier | Jun 05 19:29 |
DaemonFC | most junk busting software is at least 4-40 times the size in RAM | Jun 05 19:29 |
DaemonFC | Adblock Plus causes Firefox to leak more RAM | Jun 05 19:29 |
DaemonFC | but that's the price you pay for simple | Jun 05 19:30 |
fewa | you can also run privaxy on a server | Jun 05 19:30 |
schestowitz | Eruaran: Core i7 bumped to 3.33GHz < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/core_i7_975/ > Not sure what people need this for. It's a niche market | Jun 05 19:30 |
DaemonFC | yes, Privoxy is not really all that friendly to configure, but it's far more useful once you figure it out | Jun 05 19:30 |
fewa | how man y cores in those things? 4? | Jun 05 19:30 |
fewa | DaemonFC, also has a horrible language | Jun 05 19:31 |
fewa | custom syntax | Jun 05 19:31 |
DaemonFC | I've found that the default filters work well for me with some whitelist tweaking | Jun 05 19:31 |
DaemonFC | on a case by case basis | Jun 05 19:31 |
DaemonFC | Privoxy can also be thought of as a security tool since it filters out malicious scripts and HTML | Jun 05 19:32 |
fewa | the scripts are not malicious against firefox | Jun 05 19:32 |
schestowitz | WTF? Microsoft shill Gavin Clarke takes something that is all about Linux and puts "Microsoft" in the headline. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/qualcomm_sun_java/ | Jun 05 19:32 |
fewa | and they are old | Jun 05 19:32 |
DaemonFC | it has an entire section that does nothing but filter out malicious stuff that only affects IE 6 :) | Jun 05 19:33 |
DaemonFC | like the Nimda worm | Jun 05 19:33 |
fewa | yeah, only useful if you use broken browsers | Jun 05 19:33 |
DaemonFC | well, I was looking at the examples of the stuff it filters out specifically citing IE 6 | Jun 05 19:33 |
DaemonFC | and the vast majority of it would fail to work in IE 8 anyway | Jun 05 19:34 |
fewa | wow schestowitz | Jun 05 19:34 |
DaemonFC | but it's only maybe 10-15k of plain text if that | Jun 05 19:34 |
fewa | in order to push microsoft's pressure-regulation of netbooks | Jun 05 19:34 |
DaemonFC | so it's worth keeping around to make sure nothing can slip through | Jun 05 19:34 |
DaemonFC | most of the privacy/security concerns no longer actually target the browser, but rather things like Java, Flash, Silverlight, .Net, and various plugins like VLC or Windows Media Player | Jun 05 19:36 |
DaemonFC | those are far more difficult to contain than the browser itself | Jun 05 19:36 |
DaemonFC | so basically the more "active content" plug ins you have in your browser, the more security problems you are adding | Jun 05 19:37 |
schestowitz | Eruaran: BenQ backs Android < http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/05/benq_android/ > | Jun 05 19:37 |
DaemonFC | that goes with Firefox extensions too | Jun 05 19:37 |
DaemonFC | as they can make the browser do anything they want | Jun 05 19:37 |
schestowitz | fewa: pls elaborate | Jun 05 19:37 |
DaemonFC | There's no reason why I couldn't make a Firefox extension that wipes out your user files on Windows/Linux/Mac OS X | Jun 05 19:38 |
DaemonFC | and it's a cross platform trojan now | Jun 05 19:38 |
DaemonFC | it's basically a nasty side effect of supporting the same extension architecture across different platforms | Jun 05 19:39 |
DaemonFC | you no longer need to extrapolate the specifics of your victim's machine, Firefox will do that for you | Jun 05 19:39 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 19:39 |
DaemonFC | that's why Firefox warns you and displays a countdown before you can isntall it | Jun 05 19:40 |
DaemonFC | they have the same level of access to your machine that an ActiveX control does in IE, and likely more | Jun 05 19:40 |
fewa | schestowitz, microsoft is setting its rules on netbooks, making sure they cant get cheaper, faster. Then it trys to create a illusion that it is in control, so that it actually does gain that control. That article put microsoft on naming what differnt netbooks are called, because that suggests that microsoft somehow is fit to regulate what netbook's specs are. | Jun 05 19:41 |
DaemonFC | there's nothing wrong with creating an add-on framework, the browser would be far less useful without one, but misleadiong the users into thinking yours is more secure is jsut wrong | Jun 05 19:41 |
fewa | they have to pretend microsoft is already setting things, then microsoft can start the pressure | Jun 05 19:41 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I looked up the memcpy() function you said Microsoft was telling people not to use | Jun 05 19:42 |
DaemonFC | there's 3 other ways to do the same thing just so you know | Jun 05 19:42 |
fewa | its total junk that they put that spin on a system that has nothing to do with microsoft however. Microsoft will never have any sway over such systems | Jun 05 19:42 |
DaemonFC | you can do them with SSE and MMX, and 3dNow! | Jun 05 19:43 |
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DaemonFC | # The <BLINK> and <MARQUEE> tags were crimes! | Jun 05 19:49 |
DaemonFC | s-</?(blink|marquee).*>--sigU | Jun 05 19:49 |
DaemonFC | lmao | Jun 05 19:49 |
schestowitz | Not to be nervous. Windows can be hijacked in many new ways.. no fixes yet. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/ms_patch_tuesday_june/ | Jun 05 19:49 |
DaemonFC | <blink> was Netscape and <marquee> was Microsoft | Jun 05 19:50 |
DaemonFC | one example of how neither of them cared about standards, only about being mutually incompatible | Jun 05 19:50 |
DaemonFC | and using users as pawns | Jun 05 19:50 |
fewa | DaemonFC, stop blabbing | Jun 05 19:51 |
DaemonFC | <blink> still works in Firefox, but <marquee> doesn't | Jun 05 19:51 |
schestowitz | Carla has a great writeup about Microsoft's current Slog against GNU/Linux: http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/linux-sucks-as.html | Jun 05 19:51 |
schestowitz | Wow. Some people just don't favour choice... What’s the point of Ubuntu remixes? < http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/whats-the-point-of-ubuntu-remixes/ > | Jun 05 19:55 |
schestowitz | What next? "Why have red cars?" | Jun 05 19:55 |
DaemonFC | Federal Trade Commission fines Blue Hippo $5 million dollars | Jun 05 19:55 |
DaemonFC | http://www.lockergnome.com/blade/2009/06/05/bluehippo-paid-5-million-fine-to-ftc-but-was-it-enough/ | Jun 05 19:55 |
DaemonFC | deceptive trade practices | Jun 05 19:56 |
MinceR | privoxy can do a lot more than just blocking ads | Jun 05 20:03 |
fewa | i just think it has a horrible language to do it | Jun 05 20:03 |
schestowitz | signonnow@hotmail.co.uk - The Email Address Most Likely To Be Snooped On ? - Labour in crisis: the Hotmail conspiracy http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/2009/06/signonnowhotmailcouk---the-email-address-most-likely-to-be-snooped-on---labour-i.html | Jun 05 20:03 |
schestowitz | WTF is BlueHippo | Jun 05 20:04 |
schestowitz | And why do we need to hear about it from a Microsoft booter licker ('MVP')? | Jun 05 20:04 |
schestowitz | *boot | Jun 05 20:04 |
DaemonFC | Blue Hippo was scamming people with bad credit computer financing deals then turning around, changing it so they never actually got the thing | Jun 05 20:06 |
DaemonFC | til they paid far more than it was worth | Jun 05 20:06 |
DaemonFC | then would sue the customer if they didn't keep paying | Jun 05 20:06 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: You have to go through a lot of hoops to bust junk mail, they lobby for laws that let them do all kinds of deceptive things | Jun 05 20:07 |
DaemonFC | they send out junk mail disquised to resemble letters from collection agencies even | Jun 05 20:08 |
trmanco | Bing A Google-Killer? Get Real: http://searchengineland.com/bing-a-google-killer-get-real-20510 | Jun 05 20:08 |
DaemonFC | There's actually a little-known law that lets me march down to the post office and file junk mail as "sexually obscene" | Jun 05 20:09 |
DaemonFC | and get a restraining order on it | Jun 05 20:09 |
DaemonFC | so I made up a stack of junk letters and took them all down and did that one company at a time | Jun 05 20:09 |
DaemonFC | now I get maybe an odd junk mailing every several months | Jun 05 20:09 |
DaemonFC | I keep taking them down there and doing that though | Jun 05 20:09 |
schestowitz | X Input 2.0 Merged Into The X Server http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMwNg \0/ | Jun 05 20:12 |
schestowitz | trmanco: some trolls | Jun 05 20:13 |
DaemonFC | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzMwOA | Jun 05 20:13 |
schestowitz | Like the Don Reiseinger type | Jun 05 20:13 |
DaemonFC | Wine 1.1.23 Released With Various Fixes | Jun 05 20:13 |
schestowitz | Headlines that get hits | Jun 05 20:13 |
schestowitz | "Playstation3 will win the console wars" | Jun 05 20:13 |
schestowitz | "Cats prefer drinking Coke" | Jun 05 20:14 |
schestowitz | "KKK donate to Greepeace" | Jun 05 20:14 |
DaemonFC | Wine is starting to get a workable DirectX 10 implementation | Jun 05 20:14 |
schestowitz | Good. | Jun 05 20:14 |
DaemonFC | it shouldn't take them nearly as long to implement DirectX 11 | Jun 05 20:14 |
DaemonFC | I also remember some interest in porting Wine's DirectX 10 to Windows XP | Jun 05 20:15 |
DaemonFC | that would be mildly hilarious | Jun 05 20:15 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I did manage to get Halo 2 for Vista running in Wine | Jun 05 20:16 |
DaemonFC | very recently | Jun 05 20:17 |
DaemonFC | 1.1.22 | Jun 05 20:17 |
DaemonFC | the game is playable, the XBOX Live redistributable obviously won't run | Jun 05 20:17 |
DaemonFC | so it crashes if you try to go on Live | Jun 05 20:17 |
schestowitz | Increased competition 'uncomfortable' for Firefox < http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/increased-competition-uncomfortable-for-firefox-605497 > | Jun 05 20:18 |
*schestowitz been with FF since .09 | Jun 05 20:18 | |
schestowitz | 0.9 | Jun 05 20:18 |
DaemonFC | lmao | Jun 05 20:19 |
DaemonFC | I was pissed when they forked it | Jun 05 20:19 |
DaemonFC | I tried Phoenix 0.1 and thought it was awful | Jun 05 20:19 |
schestowitz | It's almost at 2.0 now | Jun 05 20:19 |
schestowitz | Phoronix has just turned 5 | Jun 05 20:20 |
DaemonFC | I'm still not so sure that Firefox is the right thing to do, as such | Jun 05 20:20 |
schestowitz | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=phoronix_birthday_5&num=1 | Jun 05 20:20 |
DaemonFC | it's the right thing for marketing | Jun 05 20:20 |
schestowitz | Go wish Michael happy bday | Jun 05 20:20 |
DaemonFC | it's easier to install with less options | Jun 05 20:20 |
schestowitz | It's strange to think it's twice as old as BN | Jun 05 20:20 |
DaemonFC | so yeah that's what they're going for | Jun 05 20:20 |
schestowitz | Our Netcraft rank beats Phoronix | Jun 05 20:20 |
schestowitz | Also our IRC channel ;-) | Jun 05 20:20 |
DaemonFC | They should have an option for integrated mail/news/rss and ChatZilla | Jun 05 20:21 |
DaemonFC | then there's be no reason for the distinction between FF and Seamonkey | Jun 05 20:21 |
schestowitz | Apt URL Part Two < http://blog.nixternal.com/2009.06.03/apt-url-part-two/ > | Jun 05 20:21 |
schestowitz | There should be softare that's a browser, file manager, mail reader and more | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | Oh wait | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | There's already such a thing | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | It's called "Fedora" | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | Modularity is a good thing | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | Netscape tried to put lots of stuff in one app (executable) | Jun 05 20:22 |
DaemonFC | ""Of course it was easier to compete with a Microsoft that was asleep, but it's not the case anymore. Now we have Google, we have Apple and they are amazing competitors." | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | Linux gets it right | Jun 05 20:22 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | Broken down at many livels | Jun 05 20:22 |
schestowitz | From gnu tools like rm and mv | Jun 05 20:23 |
schestowitz | Up to higher level bits | Jun 05 20:23 |
schestowitz | All reusable | Jun 05 20:23 |
schestowitz | pulseaudio | Jun 05 20:23 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Windows would actually be a pretty good thing were it open source, I was explainin the API personalities idea earlier | Jun 05 20:23 |
DaemonFC | Windows could be UNIX easier than UNIX could be Windows | Jun 05 20:24 |
fewa | DaemonFC, thats an unfair competition | Jun 05 20:25 |
fewa | its apples to oranges | Jun 05 20:25 |
DaemonFC | not really | Jun 05 20:25 |
fewa | UNIX is a very small API | Jun 05 20:25 |
DaemonFC | Windows NT doesn't need Win32 or depend on it | Jun 05 20:25 |
fewa | windows is a beamoth | Jun 05 20:25 |
fewa | UNIX and NT is moreso apples to apples | Jun 05 20:26 |
fewa | you mean windows vs GNU/Linux | Jun 05 20:26 |
DaemonFC | you can think of Win32 as a plug in API the the real NT system | Jun 05 20:26 |
DaemonFC | it would be just as easy to replace it with POSIX | Jun 05 20:26 |
DaemonFC | or run both at once | Jun 05 20:26 |
fewa | POSIX.0 | Jun 05 20:26 |
fewa | an ancient unusable, POS | Jun 05 20:26 |
DaemonFC | no, that is what they implemented | Jun 05 20:27 |
DaemonFC | they could have made Windows a UNIX-compliant system | Jun 05 20:27 |
DaemonFC | and it would be just as much UNIX as OS X | Jun 05 20:27 |
DaemonFC | there's no reason for them to do it though | Jun 05 20:27 |
fewa | http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_30#head-682c73c12d5423b372cc8f926390c1e4944c0518 which of these features does windows have? | Jun 05 20:27 |
DaemonFC | most of them | Jun 05 20:28 |
MinceR | pulseaudio sucks | Jun 05 20:28 |
DaemonFC | they're called something different | Jun 05 20:28 |
fewa | DaemonFC, does NT have kexec? | Jun 05 20:29 |
DaemonFC | Windows isn't marketed as a patchwork of separate programs so no, it won't stress something like kexec | Jun 05 20:29 |
DaemonFC | that would only be useful with Hyper-V | Jun 05 20:29 |
fewa | thats not a seperate function | Jun 05 20:29 |
fewa | its very useful | Jun 05 20:29 |
fewa | and its not at all related to virtualization | Jun 05 20:29 |
DaemonFC | running kexec is something I doubt they'll ever get done reliably | Jun 05 20:31 |
fewa | can you hot patch NT while its running? | Jun 05 20:31 |
DaemonFC | it requires too many assumptions about the state of the working system | Jun 05 20:31 |
MinceR | i prefer to hot patch NT with a big block of zeroes | Jun 05 20:31 |
MinceR | there's even a button to do it, it's labeled Reset. | Jun 05 20:31 |
DaemonFC | now you're talking about ksplice | Jun 05 20:32 |
DaemonFC | which would still need reboots | Jun 05 20:32 |
MinceR | actually it wouldn't | Jun 05 20:32 |
DaemonFC | yes it woulds | Jun 05 20:32 |
MinceR | that's the whole point | Jun 05 20:32 |
fewa | MinceR, agreed, DaemonFC is trolling | Jun 05 20:32 |
DaemonFC | KSplice wi9ll not eliminate all reboots | Jun 05 20:32 |
DaemonFC | never | Jun 05 20:32 |
DaemonFC | at most, you're talking 80-90% of reboots eliminated | Jun 05 20:33 |
DaemonFC | which helps | Jun 05 20:33 |
DaemonFC | but it still not total uptime | Jun 05 20:33 |
fewa | ok DaemonFC, since you are just pushing it. Can NT hot patch its self 90% of the time | Jun 05 20:33 |
DaemonFC | http://www.ksplice.com/cve-evaluation | Jun 05 20:33 |
fewa | and DaemonFC, can you upgrade windows in any way shape or form, without restarting | Jun 05 20:33 |
fewa | ???? | Jun 05 20:33 |
DaemonFC | "Ksplice can correct 88% of the Linux kernel vulnerabilities from this interval without the need for rebooting and without writing any new code. " | Jun 05 20:34 |
schestowitz | Another Microsoft manager quits. http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/05/igt-poaches-microsofts-interactive-entertainment-business-cto-chris-satchell/ | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | yes you can | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | not kernel code, because that's ridiculous | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | and if a Linux distro tried to ship KPlice, they'll be sued | Jun 05 20:34 |
MinceR | and not user code, because its file management is broken | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | because of software patents | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | that's why no actual distribution has it | Jun 05 20:34 |
MinceR | so actually no, you can't patch NT while it's running | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | not because it's not ready | Jun 05 20:34 |
DaemonFC | because it's illegal | Jun 05 20:35 |
MinceR | no, distros don't have it because their package managers are designed to upgrade kernels by replacing/adding binary files | Jun 05 20:35 |
MinceR | and that's not how ksplice works | Jun 05 20:35 |
schestowitz | Aye | Jun 05 20:35 |
MinceR | also, you can't use ksplice in some of the cases | Jun 05 20:35 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: fear mongerer | Jun 05 20:35 |
fewa | DaemonFC, im getting really sick of your trolling | Jun 05 20:35 |
schestowitz | Bush Jr. | Jun 05 20:35 |
DaemonFC | they could have implemented ksplice back in 2006 | Jun 05 20:35 |
DaemonFC | they still havent | Jun 05 20:35 |
DaemonFC | they know what would happen | Jun 05 20:35 |
MinceR | they could have hanged ballmer back in 2006 | Jun 05 20:36 |
DaemonFC | so show me who is using it | Jun 05 20:36 |
schestowitz | Time for Ritalin, DaemonFC | Jun 05 20:36 |
MinceR | s/Ritalin/kickban/ | Jun 05 20:36 |
MinceR | :> | Jun 05 20:36 |
schestowitz | We'll all chip in so they you can get some at walmart | Jun 05 20:36 |
DaemonFC | "So, presumably, the code will eventually be proposed for a mainline merge. But there is one other little difficulty pointed out by Tomasz Chmielewski: Microsoft holds a patent described this way: | Jun 05 20:37 |
DaemonFC | A system and method for automatically updating software components on a running computer system without requiring any interruption of service. A software module is hotpatched by loading a patch into memory and modifying an instruction in the original module to jump to the patch. " | Jun 05 20:37 |
DaemonFC | http://lwn.net/Articles/280058/ | Jun 05 20:37 |
DaemonFC | "Given that the kernel developers are now well aware of this patent, they must take it into account when deciding whether to accept this code into the mainline. It would not be surprising if they chose to avoid baiting the Microsoft FUD machine in this way, even if they all agreed that the patent lacked validity. So a promising technology risks being left out of the kernel as the result of a software patent which was filed at le | Jun 05 20:37 |
DaemonFC | ast 30 years too late." | Jun 05 20:37 |
MinceR | so why doesn't windows do that then? | Jun 05 20:38 |
DaemonFC | which.....is why it is NOT in Linux | Jun 05 20:38 |
DaemonFC | and likely won't be | Jun 05 20:38 |
DaemonFC | because rebooting is less problematic than patching things that are loaded | Jun 05 20:38 |
MinceR | especially on windows, where you spend a lot of time rebooting anyway | Jun 05 20:39 |
DaemonFC | no | Jun 05 20:39 |
DaemonFC | I reboot about every 4-6 weeks | Jun 05 20:39 |
DaemonFC | once you have the system in place, the only thing you really need to reboot for are system update cycles | Jun 05 20:40 |
DaemonFC | that happens once every month | Jun 05 20:41 |
mib_dya64o | for some time it seems windows, keeps the updates until you shutdown or restart your maching, then it applies them before the shutdown. | Jun 05 20:41 |
DaemonFC | if you ignore the security updates, you can keep a system up much longer than that | Jun 05 20:41 |
DaemonFC | I had an XP system up for over a year at one point | Jun 05 20:41 |
MinceR | if you're running windows, you're ignoring security anyway :> | Jun 05 20:42 |
DaemonFC | depends on how you have it set up | Jun 05 20:42 |
MinceR | also, what's with the 47 days bug? | Jun 05 20:43 |
DaemonFC | you have have it notify, but not download, download but not install, or just totally automatic | Jun 05 20:43 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Thaqt was a Windows 98 bug | Jun 05 20:43 |
MinceR | or completely disable so you actually get to watch a movie in full screen all the way | Jun 05 20:43 |
MinceR | instead of being annoyed by windows update every 5 minutes | Jun 05 20:44 |
DaemonFC | Windows Update doesn't annoy you | Jun 05 20:44 |
MinceR | not once you disable it | Jun 05 20:44 |
DaemonFC | the tooltip can't go on top of a full screen application | Jun 05 20:44 |
DaemonFC | ever | Jun 05 20:44 |
mib_dya64o | even when auto updates is turned on, it does not pop up anymore | Jun 05 20:44 |
MinceR | the tooltip can't. however, the dialog box can. | Jun 05 20:45 |
DaemonFC | there is no dialog | Jun 05 20:45 |
DaemonFC | til you click the icon in the tray | Jun 05 20:45 |
MinceR | also, the app wasn't full screen anymore once windows update forcibly removed it from that state | Jun 05 20:45 |
DaemonFC | it's meant to be a very unobtrusive "User notices it and acts" | Jun 05 20:45 |
DaemonFC | not in your face | Jun 05 20:46 |
MinceR | i think i'm in a bit better position to tell whether a dialog appeared on my own computer | Jun 05 20:46 |
DaemonFC | obviously not | Jun 05 20:46 |
MinceR | you're obviously trolling | Jun 05 20:46 |
DaemonFC | or you're talking about an old copy of XP SP2 or something | Jun 05 20:46 |
DaemonFC | SP3 doesn't even do that | Jun 05 20:46 |
DaemonFC | SP3 changes auto updates to act more like Vista's instead of simply starting a countdown to reboot | Jun 05 20:47 |
DaemonFC | which is why a lot of XP users turned updates to notify only or of | Jun 05 20:47 |
MinceR | which is kind of the point i was talking about | Jun 05 20:47 |
DaemonFC | well, so you admit that no current version of Windows actually behaves in the manner you were complaining about? | Jun 05 20:48 |
MinceR | and by the way it was SP3 | Jun 05 20:48 |
MinceR | well, it isn't vista | Jun 05 20:48 |
mib_dya64o | but it is true that with vista and win7 you do not even know you have a patch until you go to shutdown. | Jun 05 20:48 |
schestowitz | Google serves up the Top 10 sites to avoid at all costs < http://thenextweb.com/2009/06/04/google-serves-top-10-sites-avoid-costs/ > | Jun 05 20:48 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: and unless you're as stupid as you're pretending to be, you know why it isn't vista | Jun 05 20:49 |
DaemonFC | which is how it should be | Jun 05 20:49 |
DaemonFC | the in your face approach prods the user to become aggravated and turn off all security updates | Jun 05 20:49 |
DaemonFC | it backfires | Jun 05 20:49 |
MinceR | and doing updates on shutdown is stupid on laptops and on dual-booted machines | Jun 05 20:50 |
schestowitz | Windows update oveerrised user preferences | Jun 05 20:50 |
schestowitz | So you can leave a Windows machine running... | Jun 05 20:50 |
schestowitz | Go get some coffeee | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | And come back to GDM | Jun 05 20:51 |
DaemonFC | I've never had it override me | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | Bull | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | It does that | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | It forces updates | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | And in Vista reboots too | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | See the videos from Berlind, David | Jun 05 20:51 |
DaemonFC | if you install a Service Pack, it will notice if you don't have auto updates on and ask you to flip it on | Jun 05 20:51 |
schestowitz | AT: Education ministry supports GNU/Linux distribution for schools < http://www.osor.eu/news/at-education-ministry-supports-gnu-linux-distribution-for-schools > \0/ Vista helps Linux.. | Jun 05 20:52 |
MinceR | well, ignoring user preferences isn't new in m$-land | Jun 05 20:52 |
schestowitz | Nope | Jun 05 20:52 |
MinceR | ignoring and overriding user preferences is the m$ way and not even providing them is the crApple way | Jun 05 20:52 |
schestowitz | chown user /window~1 | Jun 05 20:52 |
DaemonFC | the file association idea in Windows is the most annoying thing it does | Jun 05 20:53 |
MinceR | why? | Jun 05 20:53 |
DaemonFC | if you have two programs that can handle some of the same files they both ask you to make them default | Jun 05 20:53 |
DaemonFC | every time you open them | Jun 05 20:53 |
DaemonFC | which needs a UAC elevation | Jun 05 20:53 |
DaemonFC | well, sometimes, depends on the context | Jun 05 20:53 |
DaemonFC | like default web browser is per-user | Jun 05 20:54 |
DaemonFC | some associations are per-system | Jun 05 20:54 |
MinceR | well, that's a bug in the apps -- and one of the standard practices in windows apps that makes windows even more of a hell to use | Jun 05 20:54 |
DaemonFC | like the default web browser could be Internet Explorer on my account, but Firefox on yours, but when one of us changes the default media player, the other gets the change too | Jun 05 20:55 |
DaemonFC | which is annoying as hell | Jun 05 20:55 |
schestowitz | hhmmmmmmmm........ | Jun 05 20:55 |
DaemonFC | Vista takes care of that | Jun 05 20:55 |
schestowitz | Article removed: http://209.85.229.132/search?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Ffcw.com%2Farticles%2F2009%2F06%2F08%2Ffeature-open-source.aspx&btnG=Search | Jun 05 20:55 |
DaemonFC | but it affects XP | Jun 05 20:55 |
MinceR | gnu/linux takes care of it too :> | Jun 05 20:55 |
schestowitz | :-) | Jun 05 20:56 |
DaemonFC | Vista with UAC on will store my file types in my virtualized registry areas | Jun 05 20:56 |
DaemonFC | so you can have your defaults too | Jun 05 20:56 |
schestowitz | Like Gates takes care of him kids.. | Jun 05 20:56 |
schestowitz | *his | Jun 05 20:56 |
DaemonFC | XP only recognizes Standard User and Administrator, it has no concept of per-user settings or file and registry virtualization | Jun 05 20:57 |
DaemonFC | so a multi-user XP system everyone is always stepping on everyone elses toes | Jun 05 20:57 |
DaemonFC | I've always said they should have a "Lock These File Associations" button | Jun 05 20:58 |
MinceR | so in vista you can finally have per-user settings, per-user systemwide settings and really systemwide settings | Jun 05 20:58 |
DaemonFC | so that nothing can even ask if you've already made a decision about something | Jun 05 20:58 |
MinceR | the train wreck called "registry" just got a whole lot more stupid. | Jun 05 20:58 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Yes | Jun 05 20:58 |
DaemonFC | more complicated | Jun 05 20:58 |
MinceR | this is the kind of achievement they can actually manage | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | because now if I turn off UAC, it can't redirect my programs to their virtual registry stores | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | so it uses the old system registry approach | Jun 05 20:59 |
MinceR | so it gets better | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | and I lose a lot of settings | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | maybe even license codes for programs | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | unless I turn UAC back on | Jun 05 20:59 |
MinceR | you either get annoyed by UAC or you get the lack of the illusion of security _and_ your users step on each others' toes | Jun 05 20:59 |
DaemonFC | no | Jun 05 21:00 |
DaemonFC | you can keep UAC on with no elevation dialog | Jun 05 21:00 |
DaemonFC | and still get file and registry virtualization | Jun 05 21:00 |
MinceR | the only reason windows is worth knowing is so that you can laugh how incredibly, utterly stupid it is | Jun 05 21:00 |
DaemonFC | that way you get the best of both worlds, no nag screen, and per-user settings | Jun 05 21:00 |
DaemonFC | UAC file and registry virtualization is both an improvement over XP but a frustrating level of complication | Jun 05 21:01 |
schestowitz | Stupid Google headline: Danger: Mac and Linux builds available < http://blog.chromium.org/2009/06/danger-mac-and-linux-builds-available.html > | Jun 05 21:02 |
DaemonFC | and can cause inconsistencies and confusion if a user switches it off | Jun 05 21:02 |
MinceR | it's just another level of hacks built on an old design flaw | Jun 05 21:02 |
DaemonFC | yes, it is a hack | Jun 05 21:02 |
DaemonFC | but a yummy delicious hack that lets me not have my settings nuked by another user | Jun 05 21:02 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 21:02 |
MinceR | lol | Jun 05 21:02 |
MinceR | now you see that's how one knows a fanboy | Jun 05 21:03 |
schestowitz | Berners-Lee: We no longer fully understand the web < http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227111.400-tim-bernerslee-i-no-longer-understand-the-web.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news > | Jun 05 21:03 |
schestowitz | Video: The Umbrella Men of Tiananmen < http://shanghaiist.com/2009/06/05/video_the_umbrella_men_of_tiananmen.php >. Nice music... | Jun 05 21:04 |
MinceR | the worst thing about those kinds of hacks is that they're going to stay around as long as windows exists, as parts of the core system | Jun 05 21:06 |
MinceR | and they'll accumulate | Jun 05 21:06 |
DaemonFC | hmmmm | Jun 05 21:07 |
DaemonFC | WordPerfect can import ODF and OOXML | Jun 05 21:07 |
DaemonFC | but you have to save as Word Perfect files or DOC | Jun 05 21:08 |
MinceR | wordperfect isn't dead yet? | Jun 05 21:08 |
MinceR | i thought m$ killed them already | Jun 05 21:09 |
DaemonFC | oh, you can convert to PDF too | Jun 05 21:09 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 21:09 |
MinceR | yay | Jun 05 21:09 |
schestowitz | "NHS patients may be ‘refused treatment’ for opting-out of electronic care record" < http://www.computerworlduk.com/management/government-law/public-sector/news/index.cfm?newsid=15042 > It's like extortion | Jun 05 21:09 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: I've got WordPerfect Office and Corel Draw | Jun 05 21:10 |
DaemonFC | both are pretty good | Jun 05 21:10 |
schestowitz | KDE4 for Windows is put on the ice and this is good news for GNU/Linux IMHO http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news/kde_for_windows_in_trouble | Jun 05 21:11 |
DaemonFC | Corel still makes some decent stuff | Jun 05 21:11 |
MinceR | corel still exists? :> | Jun 05 21:12 |
schestowitz | What does it make now? | Jun 05 21:12 |
DaemonFC | all kindso of stuff | Jun 05 21:12 |
schestowitz | What percentage of open-access journals charge publication fees? < http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/pamphlet/ > | Jun 05 21:12 |
schestowitz | name it | Jun 05 21:12 |
DaemonFC | there's their office suite, professional grphics tools, a blue-ray/upconverting DVD player | Jun 05 21:12 |
schestowitz | What? GIMP competittor | Jun 05 21:12 |
schestowitz | ?? | Jun 05 21:13 |
DaemonFC | no, much better than GIMP | Jun 05 21:13 |
schestowitz | I bet the GIMP has leapfrogged them in many areas by now | Jun 05 21:13 |
schestowitz | OOo too | Jun 05 21:13 |
schestowitz | They have some zombie userbase | Jun 05 21:13 |
schestowitz | Like secretaries that are WordPerfectheads | Jun 05 21:13 |
DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corel_Draw | Jun 05 21:13 |
MinceR | i prefer those to m$officeheads :> | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/gb/en/Content/1150905725000 | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | CorelDraw emphasis | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | A colleague of mine uses it | Jun 05 21:14 |
fewa | i remember PSP | Jun 05 21:14 |
fewa | great program | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | MinceR: No! :-) | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | Wrong to use "heads" | Jun 05 21:14 |
schestowitz | It implies existence of brain | Jun 05 21:15 |
MinceR | heads can still be empty | Jun 05 21:15 |
MinceR | they often are | Jun 05 21:15 |
schestowitz | I uses Corel Draw IIRC | Jun 05 21:15 |
schestowitz | *used | Jun 05 21:15 |
MinceR | i played around with coreldraw | Jun 05 21:15 |
fewa | paint shop pro pwns | Jun 05 21:16 |
fewa | pwnd* cd | Jun 05 21:16 |
DaemonFC | yeah it does | Jun 05 21:16 |
DaemonFC | it runs in Wine too | Jun 05 21:16 |
MinceR | paint shop pro was fine until around version 6 | Jun 05 21:16 |
MinceR | when the installer decided it won't install | Jun 05 21:17 |
MinceR | and then i decided to try gimp instead | Jun 05 21:17 |
MinceR | and then i didn't want to use psp ever after :> | Jun 05 21:17 |
fewa | im talking historical | Jun 05 21:17 |
fewa | not now | Jun 05 21:18 |
MinceR | well, this was a pretty long time ago | Jun 05 21:18 |
fewa | yeah i never tried gimp back then | Jun 05 21:18 |
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schestowitz | I started using the GIMP just 7 years ago | Jun 05 21:22 |
MinceR | NeoPaint was cool too | Jun 05 21:23 |
ThistleWeb | schestowitz, have you taken a break since you started? I feel whacked staying up for 2 days, but damn, 7 years is hella impressive | Jun 05 21:24 |
fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk | Jun 05 21:24 |
schestowitz | mocoNews - Industry Moves: Symbian Beefs Up Exec Team With Dietmar Tallroth And Larry Berkin http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/01/AR2009060102359.html | Jun 05 21:24 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: I started in 2001 or 2002 | Jun 05 21:25 |
schestowitz | I used Enlightenment back then | Jun 05 21:25 |
fewa | "Now we can take this Ferrari and paste it right into windows paint." | Jun 05 21:25 |
schestowitz | Had to create some logos... didn't even know how to draw lines (SHIFT) | Jun 05 21:25 |
ThistleWeb | I tried Enlightenement a few times but it never quite grabbed me | Jun 05 21:25 |
schestowitz | Kids at schools should be taught the GIMP | Jun 05 21:26 |
schestowitz | De facto standards | Jun 05 21:26 |
schestowitz | Instead they are made customers of some drek company | Jun 05 21:26 |
ThistleWeb | they should be taught image manipulation, by being exposed to various apps which do that | Jun 05 21:26 |
MinceR | there isn't necessary enough time to expose them to multiple apps for one purpose | Jun 05 21:26 |
ThistleWeb | learn the general principles, so they can find the functions they need in any app | Jun 05 21:27 |
fewa | yep, with tax-deductable <s>"donations"</s> opium | Jun 05 21:27 |
MinceR | but if it's got to be one, it should be a FLOSS app | Jun 05 21:27 |
ThistleWeb | Microsoft is de facto standards | Jun 05 21:27 |
ThistleWeb | by weight of market share | Jun 05 21:27 |
ThistleWeb | so really they are learning de facto standards, not real ones | Jun 05 21:28 |
MinceR | (linked from a BN article linked here earlier) http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25434/1090/ | Jun 05 21:28 |
MinceR | i wonder if this would cause opensuse to detach from novell eventually | Jun 05 21:28 |
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MinceR | well, if the student is bright enough, he can learn image manipulation on any app that's capable enough | Jun 05 21:29 |
MinceR | but if he isn't, he should at least know an app he can get and use without limitations or payment | Jun 05 21:29 |
ThistleWeb | I do wonder how long it'll be before the opensuse devs finally admit that being associated with Novell is a weight around their necks | Jun 05 21:29 |
ThistleWeb | for most users, they have many options of stuff that will work for them, they just dont know that | Jun 05 21:30 |
ThistleWeb | abiword, writer, star office writer and ms word will ALL do the basics that 99% of users need, the functions are all similarly named, similarly laid out etc | Jun 05 21:31 |
MinceR | then at least the one they're shown should be one that doesn't enslave them to the megacorps, as long as it's possible | Jun 05 21:32 |
ThistleWeb | by learning generic word processing, they can switch from one app to another with the skills to adapt | Jun 05 21:32 |
MinceR | also, state-funded education should not be allowed to function as an advertisement for any business | Jun 05 21:32 |
ThistleWeb | companies like microsoft and cisco have their own cults in the form of certs | Jun 05 21:32 |
MinceR | even privately funded education should at least make it explicit that they in fact do advertise (and are thus partial) | Jun 05 21:33 |
ThistleWeb | yep | Jun 05 21:33 |
schestowitz | ROTFL http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-cms/an-open-source-story-evolution-of-the-umbraco-cms-004635.php open source.. .NET dependent | Jun 05 21:33 |
schestowitz | Open source ceases to mean much.. | Jun 05 21:33 |
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DaemonFC | Corel Draw makes sense for me though | Jun 05 21:35 |
DaemonFC | since I can get it much cheaper than Paint Shop Pro | Jun 05 21:35 |
DaemonFC | educational licenses | Jun 05 21:35 |
ThistleWeb | pft, what's wrong with emacs? | Jun 05 21:35 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft is not the only company that does those | Jun 05 21:35 |
DaemonFC | but Apple is by far the stingiest | Jun 05 21:36 |
MinceR | emacs is a fine operating system, all it lacks is a good editor | Jun 05 21:36 |
schestowitz | MinceR: watch how Jo Shills trolls Sam | Jun 05 21:36 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 05 21:36 |
schestowitz | He created an account some days ago | Jun 05 21:36 |
DaemonFC | hmmm, this is interesting | Jun 05 21:46 |
tessier | Someone was just talking about google being a verb. To which I just replied: "Nobody ever says 'Let me Microsoft that...' unless they are talking about totally fucking something up." Hahaha | Jun 05 21:46 |
DaemonFC | I just noticed a Protexis Licensing Service running | Jun 05 21:46 |
DaemonFC | apparently Corel slips that in with their products now | Jun 05 21:46 |
balzac | tessier: hilarious | Jun 05 21:47 |
balzac | 'Let me Microsoft that' - quote of the day | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | The PSIService provides the minimal required administrative access to Corel product licensing and registration information in accordance with the new Windows Vista (tm) operating system guidelines. This service does not access any data other than the Corel product licensing and registration information, and it will not have any negative effects on your computer. | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | Thank You, | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | David T. | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | Corel Customer Support Services | Jun 05 21:47 |
DaemonFC | hmmmm | Jun 05 21:48 |
balzac | But it's lame to say "google" as a verb replacing the word "search" | Jun 05 21:48 |
DaemonFC | backdoor anyone? | Jun 05 21:48 |
ThistleWeb | ya know I figured out why the term "cancer" came to Ballmer when he made that statement ages ago about Linux being a cancer | Jun 05 21:48 |
ThistleWeb | cancer cells grow, they morph other cells into more of themselves by force. This seems to be the business model of Microsoft when taking over a competitor | Jun 05 21:49 |
ThistleWeb | try a takeover, if there are a few disenting voices ont he board saying no, you slander, smear them | Jun 05 21:49 |
ThistleWeb | get them replaced with people loyal to Microsoft and take them over from the inside | Jun 05 21:50 |
ThistleWeb | turn them into agents for Microsoft's agenda | Jun 05 21:50 |
ThistleWeb | sounds like a cancer to me | Jun 05 21:50 |
ThistleWeb | works for governemts, ISO's and other organisations | Jun 05 21:51 |
ThistleWeb | so he's right in that IT can be likened to cancer, he just forgot to include the mirror in his wrath | Jun 05 21:51 |
MinceR | will "bing" be the verb meaning to rebrand something in a desperate attempt to get attention? | Jun 05 21:52 |
MinceR | as for diseases and such, m$ is a parasite that almost killed the IT industry | Jun 05 21:53 |
ThistleWeb | they do have a lot to answer for | Jun 05 21:53 |
ThistleWeb | one thing they have done, is get people afraid of their PCs | Jun 05 21:54 |
ThistleWeb | when something crashes, people are convinced into believing it's THIER fault | Jun 05 21:54 |
ThistleWeb | something THEY did | Jun 05 21:54 |
ThistleWeb | and that sub-par is acceptable | Jun 05 21:54 |
DaemonFC | http://www.protexis.com/support/support_PSIService.htm#link1 | Jun 05 21:54 |
DaemonFC | Protexis posts a FAQ about their DRM system service | Jun 05 21:55 |
ThistleWeb | of course, when you control which products are on shop shelves, you can keep people convinced that Windows and their PC is one and the same thing, inseparatble | Jun 05 21:55 |
MinceR | it worked on crApple | Jun 05 21:56 |
MinceR | they do believe those are the same thing | Jun 05 21:56 |
DaemonFC | ThistleWebhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE&feature=related | Jun 05 21:56 |
DaemonFC | err | Jun 05 21:56 |
DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLsJryWc5XE&feature=related | Jun 05 21:56 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 05 21:56 |
ThistleWeb | which is what? | Jun 05 21:57 |
DaemonFC | Rick Astley of course | Jun 05 22:00 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 05 22:00 |
DaemonFC | quite possibly the worst thing to ever come out of the UK | Jun 05 22:00 |
DaemonFC | if one can measure these things | Jun 05 22:00 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 22:00 |
ThistleWeb | I dunno, there's a dude called Gordon who must be high in that race right now | Jun 05 22:01 |
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ThistleWeb | the only one on the planet who thinks he's doin a great job | Jun 05 22:01 |
DaemonFC | well, and so it begins | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | Bing is not advertising spyware | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | err | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | *now | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | they're advertising fake versions of Spybot Search & Destroy | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | that demand money | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | (it's freeware) | Jun 05 22:02 |
DaemonFC | http://www.bing.com/search?q=spybot+S%26D&form=QBRE | Jun 05 22:03 |
ThistleWeb | of course, it's all about Windows, and part of the full Windows experience is being infected and paying for tools to clean and protect it | Jun 05 22:03 |
DaemonFC | http://www.google.com/search?q=spybot+S%26D&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1 | Jun 05 22:03 |
DaemonFC | but Google advertises the same spyware | Jun 05 22:03 |
ThistleWeb | have they disabled the autoplayng of vids? | Jun 05 22:04 |
DaemonFC | nah, plenty of free antivirus/anti spyware suites out there | Jun 05 22:04 |
DaemonFC | in Bing video search you mean? | Jun 05 22:04 |
ThistleWeb | yep | Jun 05 22:04 |
DaemonFC | not that I'm aware | Jun 05 22:04 |
DaemonFC | I rather like that | Jun 05 22:04 |
ThistleWeb | they got a roasting for it shoiwng porn there | Jun 05 22:04 |
DaemonFC | SWEET | Jun 05 22:05 |
ThistleWeb | bypassing any other filters | Jun 05 22:05 |
DaemonFC | see shcestowitz | Jun 05 22:05 |
DaemonFC | Bing is the bestest thing ever | Jun 05 22:05 |
DaemonFC | I can has pr0nz | Jun 05 22:05 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 22:05 |
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ThistleWeb | it's a good family company in the purest sense, right down to the making of a new member of the family at their earliest visible age......as cum | Jun 05 22:06 |
DaemonFC | yes, such wonderful life education | Jun 05 22:07 |
DaemonFC | I didn't know you got pregnant by drinking that stuff | Jun 05 22:07 |
DaemonFC | learn something new every day I say | Jun 05 22:07 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 22:07 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 05 22:07 |
*DaemonFC slaps schestowitz with Bing Bukkake Search | Jun 05 22:08 | |
ThistleWeb | wonder how long it'll be before bing is added to the urban dictionary | Jun 05 22:09 |
ThistleWeb | bing - the act of window dressing a turd | Jun 05 22:09 |
ThistleWeb | using shit instead of clay to create a statue | Jun 05 22:10 |
DaemonFC | Spybot S&D's Internet Explorer immunization list has swelled to almost 100,000 items | Jun 05 22:12 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 05 22:12 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 05 22:13 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft made a way of blacklisting particular versions of IE plugins | Jun 05 22:13 |
DaemonFC | so this exploits that by blacklisting known malicious plugins and BHOs | Jun 05 22:14 |
DaemonFC | the problem is that the list can only GROW | Jun 05 22:14 |
DaemonFC | 5 years ago, it only had to add less than 10,000 entries | Jun 05 22:14 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 22:14 |
DaemonFC | as soon as you remove the blacklisting for anything, there could be a page or two out there that still has it | Jun 05 22:15 |
ThistleWeb | last I looked at IE plugins, I wasn't impressed. anything remotely usefull was trialware, the free stuff was all fun but pointless shit | Jun 05 22:19 |
schestowitz | I've never been to that BingTHing, but I've seen screenshots | Jun 05 22:19 |
ThistleWeb | looked like Microsoft saw that plugins were a HUGE pull for users to Firefox, wanted to add theirs, in their own "gotta make money from it" way | Jun 05 22:19 |
schestowitz | Others went to bing. Rather than just see screenshots they get to see cumshots... without leaving the site even. | Jun 05 22:20 |
ThistleWeb | maybe letting the vids play and giving a porn bypass is an intentional trick to get users who want porn and are blocked in other serach engines like Google | Jun 05 22:21 |
DaemonFC | hmmmm | Jun 05 22:21 |
DaemonFC | lmao | Jun 05 22:22 |
DaemonFC | it does play porn in the Bing frame | Jun 05 22:22 |
DaemonFC | oh wow | Jun 05 22:23 |
schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=OpenDocument&diff=294333975&oldid=prev | Jun 05 22:23 |
DaemonFC | Bing is a great porn search engine too | Jun 05 22:23 |
schestowitz | The Shafters keep removoing (censoring) Wikipedia | Jun 05 22:23 |
DaemonFC | UHHHHM!!!!! | Jun 05 22:24 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz!!!! | Jun 05 22:24 |
DaemonFC | uhhhh | Jun 05 22:24 |
DaemonFC | there's porn hidden in YOUTUBE!!! | Jun 05 22:24 |
DaemonFC | XXX stuff | Jun 05 22:24 |
DaemonFC | ! | Jun 05 22:24 |
ThistleWeb | so thats why the term "tube" was chosen | Jun 05 22:24 |
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schestowitz | The Mint prints more money so that the future generations will pay heavier debt and people will carry on passing money... | Jun 05 22:31 |
schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/us_jobs_report_may09/ | Jun 05 22:31 |
schestowitz | Here's from Wikipedia: | Jun 05 22:32 |
schestowitz | "Sabayon Linux or SabayonLinux, (formerly known as RR4 Linux/RR64 Linux), is a Gentoo-based Linux distribution" | Jun 05 22:32 |
schestowitz | It sounds to me like the "Gentoo User" troll tried to wash his socks, but didn't do very good job of it. ;) | Jun 05 22:32 |
schestowitz | "Sabayon User" troll.. | Jun 05 22:33 |
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schestowitz | Report: Bill Gates buys Buffalo Bill's historic Wyoming ranch < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Bill_Gates_buys_historic_Wyoming_ranch_47051137.html > | Jun 05 22:35 |
schestowitz | Hey, GOb | Jun 05 22:35 |
_Goblin | hi msging from my netbook! | Jun 05 22:35 |
schestowitz | Linpus? | Jun 05 22:37 |
_Goblin | no | Jun 05 22:37 |
schestowitz | Ubuntu? | Jun 05 22:37 |
_Goblin | xp | Jun 05 22:37 |
schestowitz | *gasp* | Jun 05 22:37 |
_Goblin | sorry all | Jun 05 22:37 |
schestowitz | Acer? | Jun 05 22:38 |
_Goblin | its the only one compat with the 3 dongle...i need acess next week when im on holiday | Jun 05 22:38 |
DaemonFC | I'm seriously considering just going back to Fedora when 11 is out | Jun 05 22:38 |
_Goblin | its an acer aspire one... | Jun 05 22:38 |
_Goblin | and god its slow | Jun 05 22:38 |
DaemonFC | the reasons I slapped Windows on this system just a month ago are no longer really the case | Jun 05 22:38 |
ThistleWeb | that'd be xp for ya | Jun 05 22:39 |
_Goblin | i shudder to think what vista would be like | Jun 05 22:39 |
DaemonFC | in what way? | Jun 05 22:39 |
_Goblin | speed... | Jun 05 22:39 |
DaemonFC | meh, it depends | Jun 05 22:40 |
_Goblin | if xp is slow...god help vista on a netbook | Jun 05 22:40 |
DaemonFC | on a decent system, it can beat XP | Jun 05 22:40 |
DaemonFC | but on an older system, definitely XP would be faster | Jun 05 22:40 |
_Goblin | and im even using ie at the moment | Jun 05 22:40 |
schestowitz | _Goblin: wait, i saw an howto earlier.. | Jun 05 22:40 |
_Goblin | i feel dirty | Jun 05 22:40 |
DaemonFC | Vista is more bloated but XP is getting too old to deal with modern hardware | Jun 05 22:40 |
DaemonFC | is really what it comes to | Jun 05 22:40 |
schestowitz | Here: https://www.montanalinux.org/acer-aspire-one-d150-review.html | Jun 05 22:41 |
_Goblin | thanks....ill ask for that link again since Im saving my money by using my desktop in a second...dont need this netbook until next week. | Jun 05 22:42 |
_Goblin | ill log off | Jun 05 22:42 |
DaemonFC | no matter what version of Windows you get it will either be way expensive and do a lot of things you don't need it to, or if you cheap out then there's going to be a lot of stuff you need it to do and it can't | Jun 05 22:42 |
_Goblin | back shortly. | Jun 05 22:42 |
DaemonFC | the whole point is to lead you to the version that does a lot of stuff you don't need | Jun 05 22:42 |
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MinceR | vista fails at hw support too | Jun 05 22:43 |
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schestowitz | No, it's the user's fault | Jun 05 22:43 |
schestowitz | For buying rubbish h/w | Jun 05 22:44 |
*schestowitz looks for the Pirillo vid | Jun 05 22:44 | |
schestowitz | DaemonFC would find it faster | Jun 05 22:44 |
DaemonFC | well, if you buy no name hardware you're kind of asking for it no matter what operating system you use | Jun 05 22:44 |
DaemonFC | I mean some of it will work fine, but on the whole, it tends to not be the case | Jun 05 22:45 |
ThistleWeb | does IE 7 or 8 support transparent png files yet? | Jun 05 22:45 |
DaemonFC | yes | Jun 05 22:45 |
DaemonFC | both do | Jun 05 22:45 |
ThistleWeb | both? | Jun 05 22:45 |
ThistleWeb | ahh cool | Jun 05 22:46 |
schestowitz | "Cool..." | Jun 05 22:47 |
DaemonFC | IE 8 isn't exactly great, but it's much better than getting stuck with IE 6 | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | Catching up with like 10 years ago... maybe 7 | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | That defines Microsoft | Jun 05 22:47 |
DaemonFC | which is why I'm shocked that anyone uses IE 6 | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | Wow! Tabs! | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | Wow! transparent window borders! | Jun 05 22:47 |
MinceR | Yesterday's Technology At Tomorrow's Price! | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 05 22:47 |
MinceR | Microsoft - The Trailing Edge Of Technology! | Jun 05 22:47 |
schestowitz | /s/EDGE/EDGI/ | Jun 05 22:48 |
MinceR | Where In The Past Do You Want To Go Today? | Jun 05 22:48 |
DaemonFC | I've benchmarked IE 8 and taken a look at the rendering engine features, and found it to be on par with Firefox 2.x | Jun 05 22:48 |
schestowitz | I.e. they force it upon you | Jun 05 22:48 |
DaemonFC | for the most part | Jun 05 22:48 |
schestowitz | If you don't want it, they'll dump it on you | Jun 05 22:48 |
DaemonFC | IE has never exactly been cutting edge stuff | Jun 05 22:48 |
MinceR | or they'll bribe your government to force it on you | Jun 05 22:49 |
MinceR | or they'll bribe your government to take your money and give it to them | Jun 05 22:49 |
DaemonFC | they've introduced a few neat things that caught on | Jun 05 22:49 |
DaemonFC | but that's the exception | Jun 05 22:49 |
ThistleWeb | I found tabs awkward to start with, then grew to insist on my browser using them | Jun 05 22:49 |
MinceR | i didn't get Opera's MDI interface when it was new, then i found tabs indispensable | Jun 05 22:49 |
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DaemonFC | schestowitz: I was toying around with sdhelper.dll | Jun 05 22:50 |
ThistleWeb | when IE had no serious competition, all complaints, feature requests could be ignored, when firefox turned into a serious competitor eating their lunch they were forced to blow the dust off the code and try to do something to stem the exodus | Jun 05 22:50 |
DaemonFC | it's part of Spybot S&D, it loads it into Internet Explorer as a plug in | Jun 05 22:51 |
DaemonFC | that way it can restrict plugins based on a blacklist it totes around :P\ | Jun 05 22:51 |
ThistleWeb | for a rushed effort, IE7 ain't too bad, at least it's better if your work insists on only using IE | Jun 05 22:51 |
DaemonFC | keeping out at least "known" spyware | Jun 05 22:51 |
DaemonFC | there's a Firefox version of sdhelper too | Jun 05 22:51 |
DaemonFC | ThistleWeb: You can also use SVG in Internet Explorer | Jun 05 22:52 |
DaemonFC | but it requires an extension | Jun 05 22:52 |
MinceR | if your work insists on only using IE, time to look for a new one. | Jun 05 22:52 |
ThistleWeb | yeah | Jun 05 22:52 |
DaemonFC | why the hell do I care what they use? | Jun 05 22:53 |
DaemonFC | It's their money | Jun 05 22:53 |
DaemonFC | http://www.ieaddons.com/en/details/Time_Savers/Adobe_SVG_Viewer/ | Jun 05 22:53 |
MinceR | ooh, it's from adobe | Jun 05 22:53 |
MinceR | if your browser isn't crap enough, why not add something from adobe into it? | Jun 05 22:54 |
ThistleWeb | never bothered with svg yet | Jun 05 22:54 |
MinceR | oh wait, it is crap enough | Jun 05 22:54 |
DaemonFC | it's not really that huge | Jun 05 22:55 |
DaemonFC | it's like a 1 meg plugin that renders SVG | Jun 05 22:55 |
MinceR | it's not the size that makes it crap | Jun 05 22:55 |
MinceR | it's adobe's complete inability to write usable code | Jun 05 22:55 |
MinceR | if it's anything like flash, it takes ages to render trivial shapes | Jun 05 22:56 |
MinceR | and if it's anything like reader, there's one security hole for each line of code | Jun 05 22:56 |
ThistleWeb | the key is that if it's good enough, and has enough of the mind share it will be a success | Jun 05 22:56 |
DaemonFC | no, it's not slow either | Jun 05 22:57 |
DaemonFC | there are several other IE plug ins that add SVG support | Jun 05 23:00 |
schestowitz | hey, mib_ymju38 | Jun 05 23:01 |
mib_ymju38 | hi | Jun 05 23:04 |
mib_ymju38 | got a pm question for you | Jun 05 23:04 |
schestowitz | BN is swamped with Microsoft trolls today | Jun 05 23:06 |
schestowitz | mib_ymju38: does it need to be private? | Jun 05 23:06 |
mib_ymju38 | Well, maybe not | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | All the fun is here :-) | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | we love transparency | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | <mib_ymju38> Hopefully this doesn't sound like too stupid of a question, but here goes | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | <mib_ymju38> The MS Xbox division is still operating at a loss, right? | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | Yes, as per last report | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | April | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | In July it's likely to be the same | Jun 05 23:07 |
schestowitz | Thie evening I found out that another XBoxer (manager) jumped ship | Jun 05 23:08 |
mib_ymju38 | So, (realizing that anything done would probably be in the noise anyway), if someone were deciding between an Xbox and a PS3 and really didn't care much either way, would it be possible to actually do more harm to MS by getting the Xbox instead? | Jun 05 23:08 |
ThistleWeb | a single person buying an xbox will be like a drop in the ocean in how much you could hurt Microsoft | Jun 05 23:09 |
mib_ymju38 | hence the parenthesis part | Jun 05 23:09 |
ThistleWeb | they do lose money, but the effect on them is miniscule | Jun 05 23:09 |
MinceR | 002016 <@schestowitz> BN is swamped with Microsoft trolls today | Jun 05 23:10 |
MinceR | well duh, you don't ban them | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | I can't | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | it's comments | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | And we never deleted comments | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | We're not going to | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | The trolls change names | Jun 05 23:10 |
schestowitz | Otherwise I just know to ignore them | Jun 05 23:11 |
Balrog | schestowitz: do you delete smap comments? | Jun 05 23:11 |
MinceR | you could ban ip addresses | Jun 05 23:11 |
Balrog | spam * | Jun 05 23:11 |
ThistleWeb | I'd buy a console on the selection of games available and the playability of the console / games | Jun 05 23:11 |
Balrog | MinceR: bad for transparency | Jun 05 23:11 |
ThistleWeb | fair play, the 360 does look nice | Jun 05 23:11 |
*MinceR shrugs | Jun 05 23:11 | |
schestowitz | mib_ymju38: buying an XBox helps MS | Jun 05 23:11 |
MinceR | one's got to deal with trolls, flooders and spammers | Jun 05 23:11 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: RROD | Jun 05 23:11 |
schestowitz | It helps them sell themselves to devs and shops | Jun 05 23:11 |
ThistleWeb | Balrog, I know | Jun 05 23:11 |
schestowitz | No sales->Xbox360 dies earlier | Jun 05 23:11 |
Balrog | the xbox 360 of someone I know died recently | Jun 05 23:12 |
MinceR | i wouldn't buy a console because consoles suck | Jun 05 23:12 |
ThistleWeb | any console is a trojan, they make money when you buy accesories and games | Jun 05 23:12 |
MinceR | well, at least wii and ds have something innovative about them | Jun 05 23:12 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC had his XBox die like 5 times | Jun 05 23:12 |
Balrog | the wii's OS isn't too innovative | Jun 05 23:12 |
MinceR | that isn't | Jun 05 23:12 |
mib_ymju38 | that's mostly why I asked. The PS3 looks like a better buy (better quality hardware and the console library close enough between the two) | Jun 05 23:12 |
schestowitz | InnOTvative | Jun 05 23:12 |
MinceR | it's controllers are | Jun 05 23:12 |
schestowitz | Silly words | Jun 05 23:13 |
schestowitz | Innovvation | Jun 05 23:13 |
schestowitz | R&D | Jun 05 23:13 |
schestowitz | All buzzwords | Jun 05 23:13 |
MinceR | the four-letter word of the industry? :> | Jun 05 23:13 |
Balrog | http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/ | Jun 05 23:13 |
schestowitz | For investors | Jun 05 23:13 |
Balrog | read it ... | Jun 05 23:13 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I won't even pretend to like anything about the XBOX 360 | Jun 05 23:13 |
DaemonFC | total disaster | Jun 05 23:13 |
schestowitz | Says a MS fanboi | Jun 05 23:13 |
MinceR | must be really bad then | Jun 05 23:13 |
MinceR | or they didn't offer enough money yet | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | it's awful | Jun 05 23:14 |
ThistleWeb | I grew out of gaming a while back, my PS2 and GameCube sit gathering dust, they get the occasional 5 min blast now and then | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | it's extortion and then the fucking thing overheats | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | I mean the life expectancy for a 360 is about 3 months | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | seriously, that bad | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | and not just talking about 1 that died | Jun 05 23:14 |
MinceR | "life sucks and then you die" | Jun 05 23:14 |
DaemonFC | thats the average life between 6 consoles | Jun 05 23:14 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: I find the handhelds more versatile | Jun 05 23:15 |
ThistleWeb | MinceR, that could be a motto for a fly before it;s caught in a vacuum cleaner | Jun 05 23:15 |
MinceR | it's just life on earth | Jun 05 23:15 |
MinceR | and the life cycle of xboxes :> | Jun 05 23:15 |
ThistleWeb | Balrog, I can't be assed witha tiny screen | Jun 05 23:15 |
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ThistleWeb | I couldn't be classed as a gamer anymore though, so things like the 360 looked cool in the 5 mins I played on in a store, dunno what it'd be like to live with one | Jun 05 23:17 |
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ThistleWeb | given that I hardly play games now, I couldn't justify spending money on any new console | Jun 05 23:17 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft isn't just pissing off the knuckle dragging Walmart customers that buy a shitty emachine | Jun 05 23:17 |
DaemonFC | they're fucking with people that have money and demand quality | Jun 05 23:18 |
MinceR | those people demand quality from the wrong company | Jun 05 23:18 |
DaemonFC | it was probably a lot easier to please customers when they never made any pretenses about being about quality | Jun 05 23:19 |
DaemonFC | and just specialized in XP on emachines at Walmart | Jun 05 23:19 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 05 23:19 |
DaemonFC | this rejection of Microsoft really only grew legs when they started charging more for Vista and added features to try and take on Apple that those shitty emachines at Walmart couldn't handle | Jun 05 23:21 |
ThistleWeb | what is Microsoft's latest plan for Windows 7 netbooks? If it needs approx the same resources as Vista it won't fit | Jun 05 23:21 |
DaemonFC | customers weren't really aware that there was anything wrong with their Celeron and 256 megs of RAM til they tried to load Vista on it | Jun 05 23:21 |
_goblin | back... | Jun 05 23:21 |
ThistleWeb | I believe they dropped the 3 app limit because of partner feedback | Jun 05 23:22 |
_goblin | i'll tell you something, that Notebook experience with Windows that is advertised on TV is certainly not the one Ive just had. | Jun 05 23:22 |
_goblin | just clicking on the start menu could invoke half a minute of HD fitting while the system did....something | Jun 05 23:23 |
ThistleWeb | Apple got slapped for misleading net experience TV advert, the ad showed a fast, snappy surfing which iPhone users didn't get close to | Jun 05 23:23 |
MinceR | ThistleWeb: the new plan is same as the old plan: lies, lies and some more lies | Jun 05 23:24 |
_goblin | its only because Im desperate to stay online during my holiday that I paid 200 quid for it. | Jun 05 23:24 |
_goblin | so to everyone here, what do you reckon the best browser for an XP crippled Netbook would be? | Jun 05 23:24 |
DaemonFC | I'm still encoding AAC and messing around with tagging | Jun 05 23:24 |
ThistleWeb | if Windows 7 wont fit they have no choice but to keep XP alive even longer | Jun 05 23:24 |
MinceR | _goblin: opera | Jun 05 23:24 |
DaemonFC | I got the encoder settings down to where I can't tell the AAC from the CD | Jun 05 23:25 |
_goblin | right... | Jun 05 23:25 |
ThistleWeb | other than cede the netbook market to Linux, which they will NEVER do | Jun 05 23:25 |
_goblin | opera it is... | Jun 05 23:25 |
DaemonFC | this is takinf forever :P | Jun 05 23:25 |
_goblin | I'll give it a go. | Jun 05 23:25 |
DaemonFC | *taking\ | Jun 05 23:25 |
_goblin | the only good thing about XP is that I will still be able to run IRSSI since theres a Windows binary. | Jun 05 23:26 |
DaemonFC | it's not a Windows binary | Jun 05 23:27 |
DaemonFC | technically it is and it isn't | Jun 05 23:27 |
DaemonFC | it depends on Cygwin | Jun 05 23:27 |
_goblin | ah... | Jun 05 23:27 |
_goblin | just downloaded the installer to transfer to the netbook. | Jun 05 23:27 |
DaemonFC | user mode implementation of a UNIX-like environment in Windows | Jun 05 23:27 |
DaemonFC | it's better to use Services For UNIX if you can | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | _goblin: you know you could install linux on it, right? :> | Jun 05 23:28 |
DaemonFC | cause it's kernel-mode | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | and kernel-mode means easier to crash! | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | it's all the rage in m$ land | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | let's put it all in kernel space and claim it's zomg-fast | Jun 05 23:28 |
_goblin | Mincer: Yeah but its the broadband dongle...its incompatible with Linux... | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | even though it isn't | Jun 05 23:28 |
MinceR | _goblin: get another then :> | Jun 05 23:28 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Vista actually emphasises keeping things in user moder wherever possible | Jun 05 23:28 |
_goblin | Yesterday I bought the Linux netbook, today I had to replace with XP. | Jun 05 23:29 |
DaemonFC | there's more third party kernel mode crap running in a typical Linux setup | Jun 05 23:29 |
DaemonFC | if you have an Nvidia card, you already have more | Jun 05 23:29 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: bullshit | Jun 05 23:29 |
DaemonFC | nope | Jun 05 23:29 |
ThistleWeb | _goblin, it may just be incompatible with Lunpus, it may work with another netbook distro | Jun 05 23:29 |
DaemonFC | all of the display driver has to be kernel mode in Linux | Jun 05 23:29 |
DaemonFC | Vista runs most of the video driver in the user mode framework | Jun 05 23:30 |
_goblin | I thought of that...rang 3...they said no...Rang Comet they said the same... | Jun 05 23:30 |
_goblin | even running wine (to boot the software on the dongle) didn't work | Jun 05 23:30 |
MinceR | vista also runs most of the gui itself in kernel mode | Jun 05 23:30 |
DaemonFC | if your video driver crashes on Linux or Windows XP, they'll take down the OS | Jun 05 23:30 |
DaemonFC | in Vista they probably just reset the graphics system | Jun 05 23:30 |
_goblin | thats why I gave up and simply replaced it with an XP one....I'm going away tomorrow... | Jun 05 23:30 |
MinceR | probably, right | Jun 05 23:30 |
MinceR | as usual, you have no idea what you're talking about. | Jun 05 23:30 |
ThistleWeb | _goblin, I used to work in Comet, I know the level of staff training they get, I know the concern they have with giving customers good accurate advice | Jun 05 23:30 |
MinceR | just wild guesses, speculation | Jun 05 23:31 |
MinceR | and m$ advertisements. | Jun 05 23:31 |
ThistleWeb | I'd take their opinions with a pinch of salt | Jun 05 23:31 |
_goblin | yeah customer services said they should never have sold me it. | Jun 05 23:31 |
DaemonFC | no, Linux video drivers are a real nightmare | Jun 05 23:31 |
MinceR | of course they are | Jun 05 23:31 |
DaemonFC | there's at least a million ways a video error can crash a Linux system | Jun 05 23:31 |
_goblin | DaemonFC: Ive never had a problem. | Jun 05 23:31 |
MinceR | the gpu vendors make them | Jun 05 23:31 |
DaemonFC | and I think I've hit all of them | Jun 05 23:31 |
MinceR | it's just like when the hw vendor makes a windows driver | Jun 05 23:31 |
ThistleWeb | every OEM is a Windows OEM, some have this little oddity on a few models called Linux | Jun 05 23:32 |
MinceR | at least on linux most drivers are written and checked by sane people who actually know and care about sw development | Jun 05 23:32 |
MinceR | the official drivers for my hauppauge tuner card keep coming to mind | Jun 05 23:32 |
MinceR | and all the shiny crap you need to make a multimedia keyboard and multi-button mouse work | Jun 05 23:33 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 05 23:33 |
DaemonFC | if you say so | Jun 05 23:33 |
DaemonFC | I'd refer to the ATI situation as a total crapshoot | Jun 05 23:33 |
DaemonFC | and Intel usually works but always mediocre | Jun 05 23:34 |
DaemonFC | Nvidia is the only vendor with a passable driver | Jun 05 23:34 |
MinceR | even that "passable" is a world of crap | Jun 05 23:34 |
DaemonFC | well, I can at least make my Nvidia card work in linux | Jun 05 23:34 |
MinceR | i can make it work too | Jun 05 23:34 |
DaemonFC | ATI and Linux is like the hell of being cut up and soaked in salt water | Jun 05 23:35 |
MinceR | at least until compiz crashes, which i'm not sure whose fault is | Jun 05 23:35 |
DaemonFC | I'm going to say it, FAAC is by far the superior encoder for lossy audio compression | Jun 05 23:36 |
MinceR | then again a friend said i should upgrade the nvidia driver from 180 to 185 and then it's going to suck a lot less | Jun 05 23:36 |
DaemonFC | it kicks not only the reference AAC encoders ass, but trounces Vorbis too | Jun 05 23:36 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: take a pill | Jun 05 23:39 |
schestowitz | ATI worked perfectly for me for like 5 years | Jun 05 23:39 |
schestowitz | No crashes | Jun 05 23:39 |
schestowitz | Sharp picture, 3920 pixels wide | Jun 05 23:39 |
schestowitz | One if the screens crapped out 3 months ago, though | Jun 05 23:40 |
schestowitz | Won't switch on. | Jun 05 23:40 |
DaemonFC | I will never buy another ATI product again | Jun 05 23:40 |
DaemonFC | it's not just because they are garbage on Linux | Jun 05 23:40 |
DaemonFC | their Windows drivers suck too | Jun 05 23:40 |
schestowitz | Punching that LCD didn't help, either | Jun 05 23:40 |
schestowitz | Sometimes it works with my other ones | Jun 05 23:41 |
schestowitz | Here at home I'm surrounded by 4 monitors | Jun 05 23:41 |
DaemonFC | ATI's definition of OEM support is they release ONE driver full of bugs and never update it again | Jun 05 23:41 |
schestowitz | Bull. | Jun 05 23:41 |
schestowitz | Check Phoronix out | Jun 05 23:41 |
DaemonFC | and good luck trying to get a Radeon Mobile working with their Linux driver | Jun 05 23:41 |
schestowitz | I didn't see one article per ATI product | Jun 05 23:41 |
DaemonFC | mine got dropped last month | Jun 05 23:41 |
DaemonFC | after not being supported at all for the first 2 years I had it | Jun 05 23:42 |
MinceR | iirc phoronix had an article about some ati cards being dropped from support before support for some new x server version came in | Jun 05 23:42 |
DaemonFC | and getting only mediocre support and inconsistent quality for the last 3 years | Jun 05 23:42 |
DaemonFC | fuck ATI | Jun 05 23:42 |
MinceR | which would mean you're stuck with old x servers with those cards | Jun 05 23:42 |
DaemonFC | they're not getting any of my money | Jun 05 23:42 |
_goblin | Roy: Thanks for linking my Bing article btw.... | Jun 05 23:42 |
MinceR | then again i'm not sure how long nvidia is going to keep their "legacy" drivers updated | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | uhhm, nice try | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | Nvidia's cards ALL work in Linux | Jun 05 23:43 |
MinceR | they really really should just give the code to the kernel devs | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | ATI is pure unmitigated dogshit | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | abandoning products from 2005 | Jun 05 23:43 |
MinceR | then we could have dri2 and kms | Jun 05 23:43 |
MinceR | and stability | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | while Nvidia cards from 1999 work fine | Jun 05 23:43 |
DaemonFC | ATI sold me their last card | Jun 05 23:44 |
DaemonFC | out of two, both were duds | Jun 05 23:44 |
DaemonFC | I've bought Nvidia only ever since | Jun 05 23:44 |
ThistleWeb | sounds like Rolo love | Jun 05 23:44 |
DaemonFC | well, Nvidia stands behind what they sell, ATI never properly supports most of it to begin with and abandons it first chance they get | Jun 05 23:45 |
DaemonFC | so they can really just suck my dick | Jun 05 23:45 |
ThistleWeb | "do you love someone enough to give them your last Rolo?" | Jun 05 23:45 |
DaemonFC | they had their chance at my continued business and lost it | Jun 05 23:45 |
DaemonFC | AMD has so far failed to turn ATI around | Jun 05 23:48 |
DaemonFC | and the crap just keeps getting churned out | Jun 05 23:48 |
MinceR | well, at least they've released reference documentation to driver developers | Jun 05 23:49 |
DaemonFC | yeah, it's sad really | Jun 05 23:50 |
MinceR | nvidia and ati should really take a page from intel's book | Jun 05 23:50 |
DaemonFC | that the open source driver sucks less than the official driver from the company that makes the devices and has access to much more inside knowledge about them | Jun 05 23:50 |
Balrog | DaemonFC: I've had the flaky 8600M | Jun 05 23:51 |
Balrog | not fun | Jun 05 23:51 |
DaemonFC | "Here, do all our driver work for us and we'll still sell the cards to you all at full price" | Jun 05 23:51 |
DaemonFC | lmao | Jun 05 23:51 |
DaemonFC | yeah | Jun 05 23:51 |
MinceR | you know, if that yields drivers that work properly, i'd prefer it to having them keep secrets and make a crap proprietary driver | Jun 05 23:53 |
DaemonFC | and another reason Fedora kicks ass | Jun 05 23:54 |
MinceR | ? | Jun 05 23:54 |
DaemonFC | a lot of the improvements for that driver are coming from them | Jun 05 23:54 |
DaemonFC | especially in proper LCD backlight support | Jun 05 23:55 |
DaemonFC | and power efficiency | Jun 05 23:55 |
DaemonFC | also, Fedora is one of the driving forces behind Nouveau | Jun 05 23:55 |
DaemonFC | don't get me wrong, I'd love to just install the system and have the driver there | Jun 05 23:56 |
DaemonFC | and sip my margarita | Jun 05 23:56 |
DaemonFC | and no setup hell | Jun 05 23:56 |
MinceR | ic | Jun 05 23:56 |
DaemonFC | I just think that the companies behind this are being pretty shitty | Jun 05 23:56 |
DaemonFC | Nvidia/ATI | Jun 05 23:56 |
DaemonFC | they're not putting any effort into the open source drivers for their own cards | Jun 05 23:57 |
DaemonFC | ATI gave some documentation and official nod | Jun 05 23:57 |
ThistleWeb | until people demand it they wont | Jun 05 23:57 |
ThistleWeb | while people dont care, they will keep their secrets | Jun 05 23:57 |
MinceR | people demand it | Jun 05 23:57 |
DaemonFC | but the RadeonHD and Nouveau projects get about the same support from ATI/Nvidia past that | Jun 05 23:57 |
ThistleWeb | I mean "enough people to make a difference in their profits" | Jun 05 23:58 |
MinceR | not going to happen | Jun 05 23:58 |
schestowitz | Apple beats all though | Jun 05 23:58 |
MinceR | until m$ is sent where it belongs | Jun 05 23:58 |
schestowitz | It knows what's good for you | Jun 05 23:58 |
ThistleWeb | while most of their users are windows users who dont care, its not going to happen | Jun 05 23:58 |
schestowitz | It shuts down | Jun 05 23:58 |
schestowitz | When it's too hot | Jun 05 23:58 |
DaemonFC | Nvidia's official position for not releasing specs or source is "Users shouldn't have to debug our drivers" | Jun 05 23:58 |
schestowitz | Shuts down.. not so gracefully :-) | Jun 05 23:59 |
DaemonFC | I've had to do more shit working around their drivers than I care to think about | Jun 05 23:59 |
MinceR | nvidia's official position seems more like "we can't be bothered to give a fuck" | Jun 05 23:59 |
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