| DaemonFC | the thing that still pisses me off the most after no less than 16 years | Jun 10 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DaemonFC | is FILE EXTENSIONS | Jun 10 00:00 |
| fewa | <EDavidBurg> fewa: linsux isn't "serious business," as they say... it's just a place for people who are annoyed by the same thing to hang out and be douchebags with each other. | Jun 10 00:00 |
| fewa | <EDavidBurg> it's like 4chan, but not as bad | Jun 10 00:00 |
| MinceR | file extensions are an illusion. | Jun 10 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | oh my fucking god, if I have to set one more after something else swipes it | Jun 10 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | arggggh! | Jun 10 00:00 |
| EDavidBurg | fewa: yes...? | Jun 10 00:00 |
| MinceR | some files just have names that happen to end with a dot and some more characters. ;) | Jun 10 00:00 |
| fewa | i think you allready answered your own question | Jun 10 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | at least GNOME doesn't let applications come along and steal your file associations | Jun 10 00:01 |
| EDavidBurg | fewa: I asked if he was writing an article on them, not what the site was like | Jun 10 00:01 |
| MinceR | in gnu/linux it's generally not customary for apps to steal file associations. | Jun 10 00:02 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, they finally have a native KDE network applet | Jun 10 00:02 |
| DaemonFC | finally | Jun 10 00:02 |
| fewa | gnu/linux doesnt have file extention, generally | Jun 10 00:02 |
| MinceR | :) | Jun 10 00:02 |
| fewa | its MIME types, and it is vastly superior, lets say "magic" | Jun 10 00:03 |
| DaemonFC | I may check out KDE again | Jun 10 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | it's been almost there for over a year now | Jun 10 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jun 10 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not a huge fan of Firefox | Jun 10 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | Konqueror was actually mostly usable | Jun 10 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | fast, standards compliant, doesn't bloat to 500 megs after an hour of browsing | Jun 10 00:05 |
| DaemonFC | stays crunchy even in milk | Jun 10 00:05 |
| DaemonFC | just the occasional odd site glitch | Jun 10 00:05 |
| DaemonFC | how is Amarok with MTP? | Jun 10 00:06 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, Konquorer developed KHTML, which was forked to become webkit | Jun 10 00:06 |
| DaemonFC | MTP support is must have | Jun 10 00:06 |
| DaemonFC | critical | Jun 10 00:06 |
| DaemonFC | I know that Rhythmbox can handle MTP players | Jun 10 00:07 |
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| MinceR | gn | Jun 10 00:21 |
| _Goblin | gn | Jun 10 00:23 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Jun 10 00:26 |
| _Hicham_ | howdy Mr DaemonFC? | Jun 10 00:26 |
| *DaemonFC highlights _Hicham_ just for the hell of it | Jun 10 00:26 | |
| _Hicham_ | what r u doing? | Jun 10 00:27 |
| _Hicham_ | still encoding? | Jun 10 00:27 |
| DaemonFC | don't remind me | Jun 10 00:27 |
| _Hicham_ | why? | Jun 10 00:28 |
| _Hicham_ | u failed to have a good quality? | Jun 10 00:28 |
| schestowitz | EDavidBurg: no, I don't feed them | Jun 10 00:28 |
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| grubby | schestowitz: nom nom nom? | Jun 10 00:28 |
| *DaemonFC feeds _Hicham_ to WMDRM | Jun 10 00:29 | |
| DaemonFC | nom nom nom | Jun 10 00:29 |
| _Hicham_ | not drm'ed media either? | Jun 10 00:30 |
| _Hicham_ | *no | Jun 10 00:30 |
| DaemonFC | why would I DRM my own files? | Jun 10 00:30 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jun 10 00:30 |
| EDavidBurg | schestowitz: looks like they're writing about you http://linsux.org/index.php/topic,1184.0.html | Jun 10 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | oh wait, that's the DEFAULT setting in Windows Media Player | Jun 10 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jun 10 00:31 |
| EDavidBurg | or at least #bn | Jun 10 00:31 |
| _Hicham_ | u should drm ur own files | Jun 10 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | in case someone wants to rip them off ur computer | Jun 10 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Jun 10 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | that is where drm comes | Jun 10 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | then they'll be "secure" | Jun 10 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Jun 10 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | *GRIN* | Jun 10 00:32 |
| _Hicham_ | exactly | Jun 10 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | Who wouldn't want to opt-in to being held hostage by license files that Windows Media Player 11 can't back up anymore? | Jun 10 00:34 |
| _Hicham_ | everyone | Jun 10 00:35 |
| _Hicham_ | license files are vital | Jun 10 00:35 |
| _Goblin | Lol....Linsux...what exactly is he going to sue for? | Jun 10 00:35 |
| _Goblin | There | Jun 10 00:35 |
| _Goblin | Theres no case...It looks like Trojan is getting a little angry. | Jun 10 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | there you go | Jun 10 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | that's why Linux is fail | Jun 10 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | it can't DRM files I encode | Jun 10 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jun 10 00:36 |
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| DaemonFC | how will my music be secure without license files? | Jun 10 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Jun 10 00:37 |
| _Hicham_ | ok, I think we should work on that | Jun 10 00:37 |
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| _Hicham_ | encoding DaemonFC in progress | Jun 10 00:41 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC have been encoded with success to DaemonFC.wma | Jun 10 00:45 |
| _Hicham_ | wmplayer.exe DaemonFC.wma | Jun 10 00:46 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, windows 7 prevent users from setting their own codec filters | Jun 10 00:46 |
| _Hicham_ | please enter the license file path | Jun 10 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | I noticed | Jun 10 00:46 |
| fewa | preventing competition in the media realm | Jun 10 00:47 |
| fewa | there very thing that the EU anti-competition lawsuit was primarily about | Jun 10 00:47 |
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| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC doesn't need codecs other than wma | Jun 10 00:51 |
| fewa | :P | Jun 10 00:52 |
| _Hicham_ | he is still encoding | Jun 10 00:53 |
| _Hicham_ | encoding encoding encoding | Jun 10 00:53 |
| tessier | schestowitz: Your directory indexes are working now | Jun 10 00:54 |
| _Hicham_ | if he is not encoding, then he is trolling | Jun 10 00:54 |
| ThistleWeb | _Hicham_, lol | Jun 10 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : did u sing any song yet? | Jun 10 01:00 |
| schestowitz | tessier: thanks! | Jun 10 01:01 |
| schestowitz | Bikini 2 - Michel Griffin < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUf20belGpk&feature=response_watch > | Jun 10 01:01 |
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| yuhong | Ars Technica is my favorite news site and I am reading it right now. | Jun 10 01:08 |
| yuhong | I also read Tech Report, AnandTech, Tom's Hardware for hardware reviews. | Jun 10 01:09 |
| fewa | yuhong, groklaw.net | Jun 10 01:09 |
| yuhong | is what? | Jun 10 01:10 |
| yuhong | I am also seriously thinking of freeing disk space to try out dual-boot with Ubuntu. | Jun 10 01:12 |
| yuhong | Looks like Apple agrees with Boycott Novell on Windows 7. | Jun 10 01:13 |
| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/apple-takes-a-few-stabs-at-windows-during-wwdc09.ars | Jun 10 01:13 |
| EDavidBurg | Apple agrees with whoever is saying something bad about their competition | Jun 10 01:14 |
| EDavidBurg | As long as they don't make a fool out of themselves doing it | Jun 10 01:14 |
| yuhong | Not that I would go as far as either site. | Jun 10 01:14 |
| yuhong | But still interesting. | Jun 10 01:15 |
| yuhong | This was at WWDC 2009. | Jun 10 01:19 |
| yuhong | At this conference they also announce Snow Leopard will be released in September 2009. | Jun 10 01:20 |
| Balrog | for $29 | Jun 10 01:20 |
| yuhong | Yep, for Leopard users. | Jun 10 01:21 |
| Balrog | probably for tiger users too | Jun 10 01:21 |
| Balrog | a very small percentage of people who will be able to use snow leopard are running tiger | Jun 10 01:22 |
| Balrog | (it's intel-only) | Jun 10 01:22 |
| yuhong | Tiger users will have to buy the Mac Box Set, which is more expensive but also have iLife '09, iWork '09. | Jun 10 01:23 |
| Balrog | hmm .. ok. How much is that now? | Jun 10 01:23 |
| yuhong | It is more expensive at $169. | Jun 10 01:23 |
| Balrog | and is that confirmed btw? | Jun 10 01:23 |
| yuhong | Yep, Apple announced it at WWDC 2009. | Jun 10 01:23 |
| Balrog | I'll have to watch the keynote | Jun 10 01:23 |
| yuhong | But that of course is a small precentage of users, since yes, snow leopard is Intel only. | Jun 10 01:24 |
| Balrog | yeah | Jun 10 01:24 |
| Balrog | (also apple isn't doing aggressive 'anti piracy' like M$) | Jun 10 01:24 |
| EDavidBurg | so there isn't a version that's just snow leopard for Tiger users? | Jun 10 01:24 |
| yuhong | No, but that is only a small percentage of users. | Jun 10 01:25 |
| EDavidBurg | Hm. | Jun 10 01:25 |
| Balrog | and apple doesn't use activation :) | Jun 10 01:25 |
| yuhong | True, they focus on hardware lock-in, not piracy. | Jun 10 01:25 |
| EDavidBurg | I had a problem when I got a new hard drive for my macbook. It came with tiger disk, and my leopard disk was upgrade only - meaning it wouldn't install to a hard drive without a version of OS X on it already | Jun 10 01:25 |
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| Balrog | EDavidBurg: are there any such leopard disks?? | Jun 10 01:26 |
| EDavidBurg | so I had to install 10.4 and then boot the leopard dvd and restore from time machine backup | Jun 10 01:26 |
| Balrog | All I heard was that the leopard discs were system specific | Jun 10 01:26 |
| Balrog | what does it say on your disc? | Jun 10 01:26 |
| EDavidBurg | if the 10.6 disk would only work with leopard on it, if I got a new hard disk or something didn't work, I'd have to do that, and THEN install snow leopard | Jun 10 01:26 |
| EDavidBurg | as least snow leopard will install faster | Jun 10 01:27 |
| yuhong | Well, Leopard was sold in retail, so there is a generic disc. | Jun 10 01:27 |
| EDavidBurg | yuhong: but I'd have to pay $129 for that | Jun 10 01:27 |
| Balrog | it's a Universal disc too | Jun 10 01:27 |
| yuhong | Windows Vista have the same problem. | Jun 10 01:27 |
| fewa | guess what everybody....Linux is free | Jun 10 01:27 |
| Balrog | but the disc that comes with computers is machine specific | Jun 10 01:27 |
| yuhong | True. | Jun 10 01:27 |
| fewa | and its not machine-specific | Jun 10 01:27 |
| yuhong | True also. | Jun 10 01:28 |
| Balrog | well, the discs that vendors include may be machine specific | Jun 10 01:28 |
| Balrog | that is not illegal | Jun 10 01:28 |
| EDavidBurg | Balrog: I'm not sure about that. the disk I have is an upgrade only disk. my brother bought a macbook from his college book store with 10.4 after 10.5 was relased and got that disk for $10 from apple | Jun 10 01:28 |
| fewa | Balrog, it makes sense | Jun 10 01:28 |
| fewa | for free software | Jun 10 01:28 |
| yuhong | Yep, Apple is giving a break with Snow Leopard after charging $129 for Mac OS X upgrades. | Jun 10 01:28 |
| EDavidBurg | so it only works if it sees MAc OS X already on the disk ie you're upgrading that computer | Jun 10 01:28 |
| yuhong | Yep, Apple is giving a break with Snow Leopard after charging $129 for Mac OS X upgrades for years. | Jun 10 01:28 |
| fewa | but on propritary software it is anti-competitive, and a violation of the first-sale doctrine | Jun 10 01:28 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: I'd need to know what's printed on the disc ... did you try it before deciding it's an upgrade? | Jun 10 01:29 |
| yuhong | First sale don't stop people from adding a technical prohibition, it only applies to EULAs. | Jun 10 01:29 |
| EDavidBurg | Balrog: it says "Mac OS X Leopard Upgrade DVD" | Jun 10 01:30 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: trick: http://www.chazography.com/2009/03/07/leopard-upgrade/ | Jun 10 01:30 |
| Balrog | don't know if it works with newer discs, but should | Jun 10 01:31 |
| yuhong | EDavidBurg: Apple is offering similar with 10.6, if you buy a Mac now, you can get Snow Leopard for $10. | Jun 10 01:31 |
| Balrog | yeah, that's standard procedure | Jun 10 01:31 |
| Balrog | "to cover shipping" | Jun 10 01:31 |
| fewa | yuhong, i said _and_, technical prohibitions are anti-competitive | Jun 10 01:31 |
| EDavidBurg | Balrog: I thought of that, it didn't work for me. the time machine option was greyed out. It checks for OS X before anything else, and locks up most things if it doesn't see it | Jun 10 01:32 |
| EDavidBurg | it still allows disk utility and terminal i think | Jun 10 01:33 |
| EDavidBurg | but it wouldn't let me back up from time machine | Jun 10 01:33 |
| Balrog | hrrm. | Jun 10 01:33 |
| yuhong | What technical prohibition you are describing as anti-competive? | Jun 10 01:33 |
| yuhong | Sorry, missed that part. | Jun 10 01:34 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: maybe you need to make sure it doesn't see any time machine volume. Hard to say without a copy to inspect :/ | Jun 10 01:35 |
| Balrog | usually it looks for the OS when it's checking the disk to install on | Jun 10 01:35 |
| fewa | when software is tied to a computer it restricts the ability for that software to compete with existing, identical software | Jun 10 01:35 |
| yuhong | On 7 laptop gifting. | Jun 10 01:35 |
| yuhong | "Having received a $2000 gift from Microsoft, expect him to say sympathetic things about Windows in the future." | Jun 10 01:35 |
| yuhong | In the *future*? | Jun 10 01:35 |
| EDavidBurg | yeah. I got it installed eventually, though, so no big deal. just took a while longer and was annoying. | Jun 10 01:35 |
| Balrog | AIX is tied to IBM servers ... | Jun 10 01:35 |
| EDavidBurg | I don't think I'll get a new disk before I get a new computer | Jun 10 01:36 |
| Balrog | I see. | Jun 10 01:36 |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder if bribed bloggers who take the money, then dis Windows would be sued by Microsoft | Jun 10 01:36 |
| EDavidBurg | just got this 500GB drive a month or two ago | Jun 10 01:36 |
| yuhong | How long does the quid quo pro that is often talked about really last. | Jun 10 01:36 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: system still under warranty? | Jun 10 01:36 |
| EDavidBurg | Balrog: nope | Jun 10 01:37 |
| Balrog | okk. | Jun 10 01:37 |
| EDavidBurg | I got this in Feb 2007 | Jun 10 01:37 |
| Balrog | I still have to buy applecare for mine ... | Jun 10 01:37 |
| EDavidBurg | MacBook2,1 | Jun 10 01:37 |
| Balrog | ahh one of those | Jun 10 01:38 |
| EDavidBurg | 4,1 is the unibody one, right? | Jun 10 01:38 |
| EDavidBurg | also, does the MacBook just not exist anymore except for the leftover white ones they're still selling? | Jun 10 01:38 |
| Balrog | no, that's early 08 | Jun 10 01:38 |
| Balrog | it's 5,1 | Jun 10 01:38 |
| EDavidBurg | right | Jun 10 01:39 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: I think they have something in store, probably when Steve Jobs returns | Jun 10 01:39 |
| Balrog | maybe a lower cost MacBook with fewer pro features | Jun 10 01:39 |
| Balrog | $600-900 hopefully | Jun 10 01:39 |
| EDavidBurg | Maybe. I'm glad they reduced the prices | Jun 10 01:39 |
| Balrog | because you can't have a 'pro' without a regular ;) | Jun 10 01:40 |
| EDavidBurg | I'll probably be looking for a new computer in a year or two, depending on cash flow | Jun 10 01:40 |
| EDavidBurg | this still works fine. 2.0GHz C2D 4GB RAM (only recognizes 3 though) | Jun 10 01:40 |
| EDavidBurg | silly bits | Jun 10 01:40 |
| Balrog | yeah, it's the chipset ... | Jun 10 01:41 |
| Balrog | only 4GB of physical address space ... | Jun 10 01:41 |
| Balrog | (there were non-Mac laptops like that) | Jun 10 01:41 |
| yuhong | Yep, and this applies to all Intel desktop and laptop chipset 945 and older. | Jun 10 01:42 |
| yuhong | 955X and 965 was as I remember the first chipset to support more than 4GB of physical address space. | Jun 10 01:42 |
| yuhong | If you don't believe me read the Intel datasheets, they state this quite clearly. | Jun 10 01:44 |
| Balrog | yes, I know. | Jun 10 01:46 |
| yuhong | Adding 4 GB of RAM to a Pentium D desktop, 945 being the most common chipset for them, would hit the same restriction. | Jun 10 01:48 |
| Balrog | yeah. | Jun 10 01:49 |
| Balrog | there's also the 32-bit windows restriction | Jun 10 01:50 |
| Balrog | vista /reports/ the full 4gb even though much isn't utilized | Jun 10 01:50 |
| fewa | Linux has not such restrictions | Jun 10 01:50 |
| fewa | you can just use a EMT-enabled 32-bit kernel | Jun 10 01:50 |
| Balrog | yeah. | Jun 10 01:50 |
| Balrog | same with OS X btw | Jun 10 01:50 |
| fewa | OSX is a mess, they should have went straight to AMD and 64-bit CPUs | Jun 10 01:51 |
| fewa | it was nuts to ship 32-bit-only cpus | Jun 10 01:51 |
| Balrog | except that AMD didn't have SSE3 for a while | Jun 10 01:51 |
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| Balrog | OS X relies heavily on SSE3 | Jun 10 01:51 |
| yuhong | Well, by January 2006, they did have SSE3. | Jun 10 01:52 |
| yuhong | s/they/AMD CPUs | Jun 10 01:52 |
| fewa | and OSX is stuck with these systems with 32-bit chips that they have to support | Jun 10 01:52 |
| fewa | *Apple | Jun 10 01:53 |
| yuhong | But yes Intel was infamous for not having 64-bit mobile processors until the Core 2 Duo came out in August 2006. | Jun 10 01:53 |
| yuhong | While AMD had it much earlier. | Jun 10 01:53 |
| EDavidBurg | while we're talking about apple, anyone have suggestions for this post of mine? http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7347446&postcount=1 | Jun 10 01:54 |
| yuhong | What is even worse, the predecessor of the iMac Core Duo was a iMac G5, which was 64-bit. | Jun 10 01:54 |
| fewa | EDavidBurg, OSX is closed source | Jun 10 01:54 |
| yuhong | So it was in some ways a downgrade, which certainly do not help 64-bit adoption.; | Jun 10 01:55 |
| EDavidBurg | fewa: read the post, I address that | Jun 10 01:55 |
| fewa | it takes alot from open source without giving back | Jun 10 01:55 |
| EDavidBurg | fewa: read the post, I address that | Jun 10 01:55 |
| fewa | and it doesnt have anything to do with Linux or Ubuntu | Jun 10 01:55 |
| EDavidBurg | yes, but people talk about a lot of different stuff in the Community Cafe | Jun 10 01:56 |
| EDavidBurg | the off topic forum of ubuntuforums.org | Jun 10 01:56 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: Leopard on a Dual-450 MHz G4 with a FX 5200 video card was usable | Jun 10 01:57 |
| yuhong | And on the 32-bit Windows restriction, I mentioned it before. | Jun 10 01:58 |
| EDavidBurg | Cool | Jun 10 01:58 |
| yuhong | Though not officially supported. | Jun 10 01:58 |
| yuhong | What is sad is that there were server editions of Windows which could address more than 4GB of physical via PAE. | Jun 10 01:59 |
| yuhong | But MS refused to bring that to client versions of Windows. | Jun 10 01:59 |
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| Balrog | yeah :/ | Jun 10 02:00 |
| yuhong | I even complained to Larry Osterman and some other people at MS about it. | Jun 10 02:00 |
| fewa | yuhong, its called M$ using Intel's feature to market segment a Microsoft product | Jun 10 02:01 |
| fewa | to the detriment of its users | Jun 10 02:01 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: also direct people to macosforge.org | Jun 10 02:01 |
| yuhong | Yep, and it was appropriate back in 2000, but even though there are now 64-bit client versions of Windows that can address more than 4 GB of RAM, MS still refuses to lift this limit. | Jun 10 02:02 |
| fewa | Linux engages in no such bullshit | Jun 10 02:02 |
| yuhong | I mean increase. | Jun 10 02:02 |
| yuhong | Correct, in Linux you can compile a PAE kernel that can address more than 4 GB of RAM on 32-bit, as well as having NX capablity. | Jun 10 02:03 |
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| EDavidBurg | Balrog: i added a link | Jun 10 02:04 |
| yuhong | In fact, if the recently-released Fedora 11 detects a CPU with PAE support, it automatically installs the PAE kernel by default. | Jun 10 02:04 |
| yuhong | What is also sad is that MS have to enable PAE in XP SP2 for NX. | Jun 10 02:04 |
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| yuhong | And while I can understand limiting the physical address space to 4 GB for driver compatiblity reasons. | Jun 10 02:06 |
| inTheLoo | why boycott novell? | Jun 10 02:06 |
| inTheLoo | boycottnovell? | Jun 10 02:06 |
| EDavidBurg | inTheLoo: oh no you didn't. :) | Jun 10 02:06 |
| inTheLoo | ? | Jun 10 02:07 |
| EDavidBurg | boycottnovell.com | Jun 10 02:07 |
| inTheLoo | oh | Jun 10 02:07 |
| EDavidBurg | that should answer your question | Jun 10 02:07 |
| *inTheLoo looks | Jun 10 02:07 | |
| fewa | inTheLoo, Novell makes exclusionary deals with the monopoly abuser Microsoft. | Jun 10 02:07 |
| mtnd3w | inTheLoo how is baby formed? | Jun 10 02:07 |
| EDavidBurg | In short: Novell made a deal with MS, which can affect FOSS software through patents | Jun 10 02:07 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jun 10 02:07 |
| yuhong | Basically it was an patent deal that was exclusive to Novell customers. | Jun 10 02:09 |
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| yuhong | Which means that MS can make Linux effectively non-free software using patents. | Jun 10 02:10 |
| yuhong | It betrayed the spirit of the GPL. | Jun 10 02:10 |
| yuhong | Forcing the FSF to add clauses to GPLv3. | Jun 10 02:11 |
| fewa | *It betrays the spirit of the GPL, it is a threat to all free software | Jun 10 02:11 |
| ThistleWeb | lesson - don't betray spirits, they may come back to haunt you | Jun 10 02:11 |
| EDavidBurg | instantrimshot.com | Jun 10 02:12 |
| fewa | ThistleWeb, dont troll people who know what they are talking about, they may not trust you | Jun 10 02:12 |
| EDavidBurg | fewa: how was that trolling? | Jun 10 02:12 |
| fewa | perhaps it is not | Jun 10 02:12 |
| yuhong | Suggestion: Read section 7 of GPLv2 and section 11 and 12 of GPLv3. | Jun 10 02:13 |
| ThistleWeb | perhaps a recompile with the --humour module enabled would help | Jun 10 02:13 |
| schestowitz | I've just posted TONS of news links | Jun 10 02:13 |
| fewa | :P | Jun 10 02:13 |
| Balrog | EDavidBurg: IMHO, 10.3 was ok ... not great, but ok | Jun 10 02:15 |
| inTheLoo | i worked for novell in the 90s | Jun 10 02:15 |
| inTheLoo | used to work for Lantastic before that | Jun 10 02:15 |
| inTheLoo | tech support mostly | Jun 10 02:15 |
| inTheLoo | it was a good company | Jun 10 02:15 |
| inTheLoo | when it had netware | Jun 10 02:16 |
| inTheLoo | netware was great | Jun 10 02:16 |
| inTheLoo | compared to what was available at the time | Jun 10 02:16 |
| EDavidBurg | Balrog: yeah, 10.3 was alright. nowhere near 10.4/5 though | Jun 10 02:17 |
| ThistleWeb | inTheLoo: there's a difference between what Novell were and what they are now, pre and post pact-with-Microsoft | Jun 10 02:17 |
| EDavidBurg | expose is when OS X really turned into a compelling product | Jun 10 02:17 |
| inTheLoo | microsoft reamed them | Jun 10 02:17 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: I was just discussing Mac OS X, Apple, and WWDC 2008. | Jun 10 02:17 |
| ThistleWeb | they were willing partners | Jun 10 02:17 |
| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2009/06/snow-leopard-hitting-shelves-in-september-for-29.ars | Jun 10 02:17 |
| inTheLoo | novell never got the client side of the network | Jun 10 02:17 |
| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/06/apple-takes-a-few-stabs-at-windows-during-wwdc09.ars | Jun 10 02:18 |
| inTheLoo | microsoft did | Jun 10 02:18 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe they felt they had to be, but they were willing | Jun 10 02:18 |
| inTheLoo | funny enough, the netware client for windows 95 was pretty good | Jun 10 02:18 |
| inTheLoo | but by then it was too late | Jun 10 02:18 |
| yuhong | (looks like Apple agreed with Boycott Novell on Vista and 7) | Jun 10 02:18 |
| inTheLoo | this web irc thing is nifty | Jun 10 02:19 |
| inTheLoo | works fine on konqueror | Jun 10 02:20 |
| EDavidBurg | in general, are you guys fans or foes of google? | Jun 10 02:20 |
| inTheLoo | many script-heavy sites don't work well on konq | Jun 10 02:20 |
| fewa | what did novell gain by the deal? | Jun 10 02:20 |
| ThistleWeb | EDavidBurg: I am mixed on Google, on one hand they do SOC, and contribute a lot back to free software, they use Linux for their servers, but their data mining is the reason I don't use much of their stuff. They also have a tendency to do Windows only software too which is strange | Jun 10 02:21 |
| fewa | all i see is Microsoft, and Susecrosoft | Jun 10 02:21 |
| inTheLoo | why is it strange? it's the best return on investment | Jun 10 02:22 |
| EDavidBurg | I never got why anyone would pay for the OS X family pack... it's the same disk as the single user with a different label. There's no restrictions on number of concurrent installs with the single computer disk | Jun 10 02:22 |
| fewa | Google is hostile to the AGPL | Jun 10 02:22 |
| yuhong | BTW, what caused Ron Hovsepian to be chosen instead of someone else who could have been better? | Jun 10 02:24 |
| yuhong | fewa: I know. | Jun 10 02:24 |
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| EDavidBurg | somehow I read Hovsepian as horseporn... | Jun 10 02:25 |
| yuhong | EDavidBurg: Licensing. | Jun 10 02:25 |
| inTheLoo | ok so | Jun 10 02:25 |
| *EDavidBurg deletes his browser history | Jun 10 02:25 | |
| EDavidBurg | uhhh | Jun 10 02:25 |
| inTheLoo | according to the website | Jun 10 02:25 |
| inTheLoo | novell signed a deal that would protect its customers from patent lawsuits | Jun 10 02:26 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: You should post links to WWDC 2009. | Jun 10 02:26 |
| inTheLoo | but that doesn't extend to non-novell customers | Jun 10 02:26 |
| inTheLoo | which also use linux | Jun 10 02:26 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: You should post links to WWDC 2009 related news, including the two from Ars I just linked. | Jun 10 02:26 |
| inTheLoo | but not suse | Jun 10 02:26 |
| ThistleWeb | anytime I need to use Google services, I block their scripts and cookies, and run with customizegoogle addon, set to block as much as possible, and anonymise | Jun 10 02:26 |
| fewa | yuhong, the site is not about apple | Jun 10 02:26 |
| inTheLoo | is that the exclusionary part? | Jun 10 02:26 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: I am not interested in Apple, but thanks. | Jun 10 02:27 |
| schestowitz | gn | Jun 10 02:27 |
| yuhong | fewa and schestowitz: But WWDC 2009 does contain some interesting snippets. | Jun 10 02:27 |
| inTheLoo | what patents does this deal cover, exactly? | Jun 10 02:27 |
| yuhong | For example, looks like Apple agrees with BN on Vista and 7. | Jun 10 02:28 |
| inTheLoo | or is it just a security blanket? | Jun 10 02:28 |
| fewa | inTheLoo, http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20061218045851480 | Jun 10 02:28 |
| yuhong | schestowitz: Also don't confuse Mac OS X's restrictions with iPhone's restrictions, they are different platforms. | Jun 10 02:29 |
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| fewa | yuhong, whats the difference? | Jun 10 02:29 |
| yuhong | iPhone is more restrictive, with apps having to be approved by Apple. | Jun 10 02:30 |
| yuhong | While Mac OS X is more open and has no such restrictions. | Jun 10 02:30 |
| fewa | OSX apps have to be coded to the cocoa, any other propritary APIs | Jun 10 02:30 |
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| yuhong | I am not expecting BN to cover all of WWDC 2009, that is way off topic. | Jun 10 02:31 |
| yuhong | But it does contain some interesting parts. | Jun 10 02:31 |
| yuhong | My school districts uses almost exclusively Macs, BTW. | Jun 10 02:32 |
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| ThistleWeb | just flicking through the links, wow Linux is the first with USB3.0 drivers | Jun 10 03:04 |
| ThistleWeb | nice :)) all we need now are devices | Jun 10 03:04 |
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| splosion | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/08/ozzie_google_wave/ Wave is anti-web, says Microsoft. Well, of course it is: they have a competing product | Jun 10 04:23 |
| mib_lg69qg | Best quote from TFA: | Jun 10 04:31 |
| mib_lg69qg | "Ozzie said the open web relies on open data formats and protocols, not opaque packages and payloads being tunneled across the web - yes, that was Microsoft saying that." | Jun 10 04:31 |
| mib_lg69qg | Having the company responsible for IE 6,7, and 8 talk about anything being "anti-web" is too funny. | Jun 10 04:33 |
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| splosion | http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6466430.ece UK police waterboarding suspects. SMooth | Jun 10 04:49 |
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| splosion | http://www.cbronline.com/news/microsoft_ip_ventures_launches_new_irish_tech_startup_090609 | Jun 10 06:04 |
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| splosion | http://www.thestreet.com/story/10511650/1/activist-microsoft-rd-hasnt-delivered.html?cm_ven=GOOGLEN | Jun 10 06:59 |
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| schestowitz | Twitter is kaput. http://techdirt.com/articles/20090608/1043055165.shtml (Pay Per Post Model Moves To Twitter) | Jun 10 07:52 |
| oh well | Jun 10 07:53 | |
| Here's an idiot article that quotes Slashdot troll drinkypoo http://www.technewsworld.com/story/67242.html?wlc=1244617596 | Jun 10 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | nice nickname eh? | Jun 10 07:54 |
| schestowitz | Sure adds prestige to Slashdot | Jun 10 07:54 |
| schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090608/1718455169.shtml (Judges Divided On Right Of Schools To Punish Students For Mocking Principals Online) | Jun 10 07:54 |
| Eventually, they seem to get to someone who knows what they are talking about. -> "The U.S. military uses GNU/Linux widely," blogger Robert Pogson told LinuxInsider. "Apparently, they care nothing for cost and reliability by choosing that other OS for desktop systems that are not mission-critical. One must assume this is a top-down decision because the computer geeks in the Army certainly know and love GNU/Linux." | Jun 10 07:55 | |
| but most of it is M$ praise. | Jun 10 07:56 | |
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| Too bad they did not quote West Point, http://slashdot.org/submission/1006103/US-Army-Moves-to-Vista | Jun 10 07:59 | |
| It's kind of like the Wintel press to take 2 weeks to report things then get it wrong. | Jun 10 08:00 | |
| Why do they lie to us? http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9133643&intsrc=news_ts_head | Jun 10 08:03 | |
| Who is this idiot Eric Lai? | Jun 10 08:03 | |
| Has he not see the single digit business numbers for Vista in business? It's practically zero. | Jun 10 08:04 | |
| Polls have consistently put Vista interest at 10% or less. Now that the word is out about, I imagine it's much less. Vista only has a place in the world because M$ made it impossible to buy anything but at most places. Those places are almost all out of business now because of it. | Jun 10 08:06 | |
| splosion | roy: did you see the SLP link I posted above? more here http://www.yourindustrynews.com/microsoft+ip+ventures+launches+ireland's+latest+tech+startup:+inishtech_33870.html | Jun 10 08:06 |
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| ThistleWeb | cool, if Twitter are moving to that model Identi.ca will be so much more appealing FOSS wins again | Jun 10 08:09 |
| The Comcast DNS hijack story is very spooky. It would seem to apply, even if you host your own DNS. If they can hijack your request to other DNS, they can hijack your local DNS requests to higher level servers. | Jun 10 08:12 | |
| Verdict - criminal interference with communications. | Jun 10 08:12 | |
| splosion | ThistleWeb: there was an interesting thing about switching to full rms-style freedom for social networking sites on UF. I think somebody made a site about it too. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1147366 | Jun 10 08:12 |
| ThistleWeb | splosion: where they exist and are stable enough and feature rich enough, they should use them | Jun 10 08:13 |
| ThistleWeb | identi.ca has been great for a while now as far as I know | Jun 10 08:13 |
| splosion | Yeah | Jun 10 08:14 |
| ThistleWeb | I think it's missing a few twitter specific features but not many | Jun 10 08:14 |
| ThistleWeb | and you can run your own instance and blend with others | Jun 10 08:14 |
| ThistleWeb | where you cant with Twitter | Jun 10 08:14 |
| splosion | yeah. the best way to convince the rest of the world that rms-style freedom is the way to go is to use those apps. Things like identi.ca and libre.fm show that there is a desire for this | Jun 10 08:16 |
| ThistleWeb | it's really only FOSS people who care about FOSS apps, but those switching help swell the number of users which makes them more appealing to the masses, which can only help them grow | Jun 10 08:17 |
| ThistleWeb | advertisers / investors care about potential eyeballs | Jun 10 08:17 |
| ThistleWeb | often that means user base | Jun 10 08:18 |
| splosion | yeah. Still, the non-FOSS world will eventually realise that super high-rpofile killer apps like Wave wouldn't be very powerful or as feature-rich if they weren't libre | Jun 10 08:19 |
| splosion | or even very useful | Jun 10 08:19 |
| splosion | it's not lock-in anymore, it's going to be lock-out | Jun 10 08:19 |
| ThistleWeb | ideally yeah, but most users wont care how it's developed, only that it does cool stuff, lets them do cool stuff and dont cost them anything | Jun 10 08:19 |
| ThistleWeb | some will look into it more, but many wont look beyond using it | Jun 10 08:20 |
| schestowitz | twitter: Lai is a Softer | Jun 10 08:20 |
| schestowitz | He covers MS | Jun 10 08:21 |
| schestowitz | "About Redmod" is his blog tagline | Jun 10 08:21 |
| ThistleWeb | where it will likely make a difference in peoples opinions is companies like Microsoft trying in vain to offer competing closed source apps which won't be anywhere near as flexible or stable | Jun 10 08:21 |
| ThistleWeb | people will see FOSS as a better quality product, even if they have no idea why | Jun 10 08:21 |
| About Redmond, hmmmm | Jun 10 08:21 | |
| splosion | aye. more users means more devs, more support and more appeal in the long run | Jun 10 08:22 |
| schestowitz | Someone should write to the MSBBC and explain to them gently what the word "PIRATE" really means. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8091107.stm #propaganda | Jun 10 08:22 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm surprised Microsoft haven't tried a "Everybody Loves Redmond" take on the sitcom | Jun 10 08:22 |
| ThistleWeb | maybe they did and went with Seinfled instead | Jun 10 08:22 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: Idenctica too started having spam | Jun 10 08:23 |
| I got to meet a person who works for a large Linux user in Redmond. He works at a Lowe's Hardware store. "You are a Linux user in Redmond," I told him. That made him smile. | Jun 10 08:23 | |
| splosion | downloading = theft. It's odd how many people believe this. Especially as no one has ever gone to prison for downloading music or videos. Logic fail. | Jun 10 08:23 |
| Even here in Washington, it seems, people are sick of M$. | Jun 10 08:24 | |
| schestowitz | Legal alien.. Englishman in New York | Jun 10 08:24 |
| ThistleWeb | anything where users talk directly to other users will be a target of spammers though | Jun 10 08:24 |
| ThistleWeb | the impression I get of Microsoft is that they have the DNA of the hardball 90's businessmen who will do anything to win, and times have moved on to the point where that used to be valued, is now looked on as disrespectful and harsh | Jun 10 08:25 |
| ThistleWeb | they have not changed, while those around them have | Jun 10 08:25 |
| splosion | good news here and relevant to discussion. demand for training in OSS increases http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/business/0,39044229,62054843,00.htm?scid=rss_z_nw | Jun 10 08:26 |
| ThistleWeb | it's the Reagan / Thatcher style excess | Jun 10 08:26 |
| ThistleWeb | anyone who's had their own way for too long expects to keep it that way, they dpn't know anything else because they've never experienced it | Jun 10 08:27 |
| splosion | and now for some bad news about Mono http://techworld.nl/idgns/6499/mono-for-visual-studio-announces-first-release.html | Jun 10 08:27 |
| ThistleWeb | they don't recognise that times have changed | Jun 10 08:27 |
| splosion | dinosaurs | Jun 10 08:27 |
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| ThistleWeb | many other companies with years of excess failed to recognise times have changed, continued their paths and ended up begging for bail outs from governments, in part to pay huge golden parachute payments for their failures | Jun 10 08:31 |
| splosion | that irks me quite a bit. That so much tax money goes into subsiding private ventures. Capitalism fail. You see it all over the place. It infects everywhere, not just the tech industry | Jun 10 08:33 |
| splosion | s/subsiding/subsidising | Jun 10 08:34 |
| ThistleWeb | splosion: in some cases it's nessesary, but in principle I agree, capitalism is all about the market | Jun 10 08:36 |
| splosion | oh didn't see this one. Groklaw tackles the ODF-dissing campaign http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009061001520015 | Jun 10 08:36 |
| ThistleWeb | in most cases they should be allowed a natural death of their mismanagement | Jun 10 08:36 |
| splosion | yeah. Public money should be spent on public interests. not on bailing out companies who outsource their work to Buttfuckistan. | Jun 10 08:37 |
| PCWorld. Doing the dirty work of the Slog. Creating divisions between M$ competitors who are natural allies http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/166363/apple_to_atandt_drop_dead.html | Jun 10 08:38 | |
| Nothing could be easier than making fun of ATT. | Jun 10 08:38 | |
| but Apple is not much better and M$ outdoes ATT for evilness by an order of magnitude. | Jun 10 08:39 | |
| EDavidBurg | twitter: I think there's an ampersand in there somewhere | Jun 10 08:40 |
| NYT laughs at M$ and Windows 7 sales http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/windows-7-on-sale-before-its-on-sale/ | Jun 10 08:41 | |
| ThistleWeb | the big problem I have on bailouts is the lack of conditions on them for rewarding failed board members | Jun 10 08:41 |
| ThistleWeb | take public cash, split a huge chunk between the board, throw the rest at the company to help it stay afloat | Jun 10 08:42 |
| Windows 7, now available for layaway! | Jun 10 08:42 | |
| ThistleWeb | for me, there should be some conditions like the board all work at the wage rate their lowest paid employee gets paid, until the govt loan is paid back | Jun 10 08:43 |
| ThistleWeb | with any attempts at skimming round it treated as fraud with a criminal trial | Jun 10 08:44 |
| ThistleWeb | all pension / bonus agreements previously agreed are null and have to be renegotiated after the loan is fully repaid | Jun 10 08:45 |
| ThistleWeb | the fact there's nothing even resembling this, shows that govt & corporations are too much alike | Jun 10 08:45 |
| ThistleWeb | politicians don't piss off potential large doners to their ellection cause | Jun 10 08:46 |
| ThistleWeb | the street scum have plenty of votes to change the results, but have little money to contribute to the campaign funds | Jun 10 08:47 |
| Hey, look shestowitz, you predicted some idiot would use the words "nail in the linux desktop coffin." Here it is. http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsoft_we_wont_cripple_windows_7_on_netbooks | Jun 10 08:47 | |
| Preston Gralla must be a BN reader. | Jun 10 08:48 | |
| Hell, he might even be here now. | Jun 10 08:48 | |
| splosion | http://markmail.org/search/?q=Alex+Brown&q=list%3Aorg.oasis-open.lists.office-comment sheeeesh | Jun 10 08:48 |
| EDavidBurg | I'm Preston Gralla | Jun 10 08:48 |
| -> " If there's been any doubt that Microsoft plans to use Windows 7 to put the nail in the coffin of desktop Linux, there's this news: Microsoft says it will no longer cripple the Windows 7 Starter Edition" He then goes on to list 9 ways M$ will cripple Vista 7. | Jun 10 08:50 | |
| A big one is DVD play back. | Jun 10 08:50 | |
| splosion | "For netbooks, these are fairly minor features --- who needs multi-monitor support on a netbook, or expects to watch recorded TV on one? " -- eh? watching recorded TV on a netbook as a minor feature? that's an awesome feature. | Jun 10 08:50 |
| and somehow it will lack WMP, which will keep it from all media, "Windows Media Center for watching recorded TV or other media." | Jun 10 08:51 | |
| I donno, seems like a new low even by Windows standards. | Jun 10 08:52 | |
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| balzac | lart. | Jun 10 08:52 |
| Oh yeah, Vista 7 starter edition won't be able to stream media, " [no] Remote Media Streaming for streaming your music, videos, and recorded TV from your home computer." | Jun 10 08:53 | |
| splosion | watching recorded TV on the go would be one of the reasons I'd consider buying a netbook. | Jun 10 08:53 |
| Better upgrade to GNU/Linux if you want media and reasonable graphics. | Jun 10 08:53 | |
| balzac | I think Microsoft's arrogance is finally about to catch up with them | Jun 10 08:53 |
| balzac | it'll be more obvious than ever that they're arbitrarily imposing limitations | Jun 10 08:54 |
| debt and a 33% decline in revenue says they have already taken a hit. | Jun 10 08:54 | |
| balzac | It becomes more and more obviously irrational to have drugs and software prices be completely unrelated to production costs | Jun 10 08:54 |
| their answer seems to be more of the same losing strategy | Jun 10 08:54 | |
| yes, the more tyranny is imposed the more obvious it is. | Jun 10 08:55 | |
| It's kind of a death spiral. | Jun 10 08:55 | |
| balzac | yep, the more they leverage their monopoly, twist arms in foreign countries, and become ever-more belligerant, the more it seems they're accelerating off a cliff. | Jun 10 08:56 |
| splosion | making people pay for a boolean to set $functionality_x to "on" is a dumb idea to begin with. Still Microsoft patented it so they must be serious about making some money this way | Jun 10 08:56 |
| balzac | yep | Jun 10 08:56 |
| The more odious M$ is, the more people avoid them and the more odious M$ must become. | Jun 10 08:56 | |
| ThistleWeb | now people have had a glimpse of a non-Windows world with Linux netbooks, even if they didnt have a clue what Linux was, they just know that after playing with it for a little while it just works | Jun 10 08:56 |
| balzac | additional versions of MS Office with their silly, arbitrary interface changes - eventually people will just laugh | Jun 10 08:57 |
| splosion | You se this everywhere, though. Newspapers are finding that paywalls just don't work. Microsoft will find this one out for themselves | Jun 10 08:57 |
| balzac | splosion: indeed | Jun 10 08:57 |
| ThistleWeb | while people are kept blinkered it's easy to get people to fork over cash if they don't know any choice exists | Jun 10 08:58 |
| I'm amazed they are doing the whole Vista Capable pre sale again. It shows how desperate they are for money and buzz. | Jun 10 08:58 | |
| They also seek to freeze the market. | Jun 10 08:58 | |
| balzac | Microsoft really ought to be sacking Ballmer and changing their tune on the GPL | Jun 10 08:59 |
| but like the Vista fiasco before, a frozen market is hard to thaw. | Jun 10 08:59 | |
| balzac | or else they're going off a cliff | Jun 10 08:59 |
| They are off the cliff. | Jun 10 08:59 | |
| balzac | if they don't sincerely embrace modern software licensing and business models, they're toast | Jun 10 08:59 |
| ThistleWeb | I hope they punish users for refusing Vista by making Windows 7 more expensive than it would have been | Jun 10 08:59 |
| Corry Doctorow tried to tell them DRM was a bad idea about five years ago. | Jun 10 08:59 | |
| ThistleWeb | price will be a factor in people saying no | Jun 10 09:00 |
| splosion | I am impressed with Microsoft's Windows 7 hype campaign. free tasters, slashed prices, "it's not as bad as Vista!". They've really excelled. You see hype for Windows 7 everywhere. Even the places you'd least expect it (Linux forums etc) | Jun 10 09:00 |
| balzac | I hope it's a spectacular collapse like Wall Street | Jun 10 09:00 |
| Peter Gutmann tried to tell them DRM was harmful two years ago. | Jun 10 09:00 | |
| balzac | A spectacular accounting scandal like Madoff Securities LLC | Jun 10 09:00 |
| It is disgusting that they continue to fight and waste resources when it's obvious they are defeated. Their employees will suffer needlessly. | Jun 10 09:01 | |
| balzac | well, some folks insist on learning the hard way | Jun 10 09:02 |
| balzac | But I want to clean up on their losses | Jun 10 09:02 |
| They are guilty and deserve to suffer, but it will be difficult to compensate their victims after they implode. | Jun 10 09:02 | |
| When the money's gone, the money's gone. | Jun 10 09:02 | |
| balzac | Maybe there'll be a glut of IT people who depended on proprietary software and I'll be able to hire them at off-shore out-sourcing wages... heh heh | Jun 10 09:03 |
| ThistleWeb | all large institutions think in long terms, they know there are ups and downs, they will assume this is just another down, with an up on the way | Jun 10 09:03 |
| Perhaps they waste it intentionally, like an evil spouse in a divorce. Blow the money so no one else can get it. | Jun 10 09:03 | |
| balzac | I'll be like $15/hr, you can be glad to be getting paid for on-the-job education on free and open source software... | Jun 10 09:04 |
| There's already a glut of IT people. | Jun 10 09:04 | |
| and tech people in general. | Jun 10 09:04 | |
| ThistleWeb | they've had their own way for far too long, they will see contracts being delayed until cash flow is better, but still resigned, not abandoned for alternatives | Jun 10 09:04 |
| balzac | well, there's not enough of a glut for me to start hiring them yet. | Jun 10 09:04 |
| $30k/year is 3x what people and China and India work for. | Jun 10 09:04 | |
| balzac | I'd like to hire a harvard MBA and make him do cold-calls on an excel spreadsheet full of leads. | Jun 10 09:05 |
| Hire people who know useful things first. | Jun 10 09:05 | |
| Let the MBAs wait tables. | Jun 10 09:05 | |
| balzac | Send him out to get coffee for the developers. heheh. | Jun 10 09:05 |
| Scrub toilets | Jun 10 09:06 | |
| balzac | alright, now maybe you're getting carried away. | Jun 10 09:06 |
| splosion | submitted to digg http://digg.com/tech_news/The_anti_ODF_campaign_continues | Jun 10 09:06 |
| balzac | unless you're talking about Bush who should scrub toilets in prison | Jun 10 09:06 |
| I've scrubbed toilets for a living. | Jun 10 09:06 | |
| balzac | ok, then I won't judge | Jun 10 09:06 |
| ThistleWeb | bbl | Jun 10 09:06 |
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| People do what they have to do. | Jun 10 09:07 | |
| balzac | I've done construction, rennovation, construction waste hauling, and all kinds of nasty dirty jobs in the construction business. | Jun 10 09:07 |
| balzac | i'm a high-school drop out and it would do my ego good to have a Harvard MBA going on coffee runs for my developers | Jun 10 09:08 |
| balzac | so I'll just set that dream on the periphery of my mind as my business grows | Jun 10 09:08 |
| balzac | when the time comes, I'll make it happen | Jun 10 09:09 |
| balzac | who knows, maybe they'll have something intelligent to contribute to business strategy | Jun 10 09:09 |
| It's amazing what people will do when you treat them with respect. | Jun 10 09:10 | |
| Stick to getting things done. Revenge is a waste of time. | Jun 10 09:10 | |
| Justice, on the other hand, is a worthwhile goal. | Jun 10 09:10 | |
| balzac | Well, sometimes revenge is only justice with a bit of pinache | Jun 10 09:11 |
| balzac | justice with style | Jun 10 09:11 |
| Some poor recent MBA graduate is just as screwed as anyone right now. They have mega bucks worth of debt for all their efforts. It is better to target someone's guilty of real crime. | Jun 10 09:12 | |
| balzac | I wouldn't send a Harvard MBA out with a horrible kind of glee | Jun 10 09:12 |
| balzac | to get the coffee | Jun 10 09:12 |
| balzac | I'd just make a joke of it once, not a daily embarrassment | Jun 10 09:12 |
| balzac | I don't get my kicks from grinding people down unless they're oppressive to me in some way | Jun 10 09:13 |
| balzac | if I have an advantage, I don't get amusement from reminding anyone of it | Jun 10 09:14 |
| splosion | how would you make it a joke? "Take your calculator with you, there's a good boy." | Jun 10 09:14 |
| balzac | well, first you have to earn someone's respect before you can share that kind of irreverent humor | Jun 10 09:15 |
| balzac | You can't prank someone like that and expect them not to freak out if they don't know you sense of humor well enough not to take it personally. | Jun 10 09:15 |
| splosion | playful camaraderie. it's a nice thing to have around at work. | Jun 10 09:15 |
| balzac | Basically, you have to be the kind of person they wouldn't be afraid of insulting in return, in a humorous way. | Jun 10 09:17 |
| LOL, Praise for Windows 7 - "It wasn't bad at all -- kind of Mac-like, in fact." Faint indeed. http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/windows-media-center-another-reason-windows-7-554 | Jun 10 09:17 | |
| and an exaggeration | Jun 10 09:18 | |
| That has got to be one of the ugliest looking apps I've seen in a while. | Jun 10 09:18 | |
| He was editing his pictures with his Media Player? Somehow it suggested he set up Internet TV and watch a particular US Sitcom? | Jun 10 09:20 | |
| balzac | I feel sorry for that guy | Jun 10 09:20 |
| splosion | http://apcmag.com/dell-axes-its-mini-12-netbook.htm | Jun 10 09:20 |
| splosion | from TFA, "It seems that Dell’s gameplan is to retire the Mini 12 and replace it with the rumoured Mini 11, codenamed Argos – a low-cost ‘thin and light’ Windows 7 notebook with an 11.6 inch screen" | Jun 10 09:20 |
| splosion | Dell are losing their marbles | Jun 10 09:21 |
| balzac | It's like he's eating a prune and mustard sandwich and thinks it's good | Jun 10 09:21 |
| balzac | mini 11.6" ? That's huge. | Jun 10 09:21 |
| balzac | I'll be looking to move some of the Longsoon netbooks | Jun 10 09:22 |
| splosion | link? | Jun 10 09:22 |
| balzac | If Dell doesn't keep making a 9" model, I'll ignore them | Jun 10 09:22 |
| splosion | I don't think you're alone in that decision | Jun 10 09:22 |
| balzac | splosion: lemote | Jun 10 09:23 |
| splosion | and anyway, it's daft to remove a product before the replacement is even available. what the hell are they thinking? | Jun 10 09:23 |
| balzac | I've seen them for sale in euros | Jun 10 09:23 |
| 12" is about the right size for a laptop monitor. | Jun 10 09:24 | |
| balzac | almost competitive, but it looks like their manufacturing runs aren't big enough to take advantage of the economy of scale yet | Jun 10 09:24 |
| balzac | but they will start moving them | Jun 10 09:24 |
| balzac | 12 is too big | Jun 10 09:24 |
| balzac | I don't want one that size | Jun 10 09:24 |
| balzac | Actually, I don't like carrying a mobile computer around anymore | Jun 10 09:24 |
| Why, oh why, do people use Outlook still? | Jun 10 09:25 | |
| splosion | I'd like a laptop--any laptop, that doesn't have a widescreen monitor. Widescreen monitors are terrible for coding. | Jun 10 09:25 |
| balzac | It makes me feel like a dork, and lots of girls ignore me when I carry a computer bag. | Jun 10 09:25 |
| balzac | I'll just get the t-mobile g1 | Jun 10 09:25 |
| It was not so great in 2001 and it has gotten even worse now. | Jun 10 09:25 | |
| balzac | put the debian image on it for gnu utilities | Jun 10 09:25 |
| splosion | twitter: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/255439/google-targets-exchange-with-new-outlook-sync.html | Jun 10 09:26 |
| Outlooks threading is the pits, and it's nearly impossible to organize mail with it. | Jun 10 09:26 | |
| balzac | some girls take an interest, but not many. they're dorks too. | Jun 10 09:26 |
| Blah. http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10260879-2.html | Jun 10 09:26 | |
| balzac | It's better to have computers at work and at home, but not around the city. | Jun 10 09:26 |
| balzac | Microsoft Lookout | Jun 10 09:27 |
| Google's web interface is better than Outlook - it threads! | Jun 10 09:27 | |
| it has templates! | Jun 10 09:27 | |
| splosion | More about Microsoft's SLP scheme http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39662046,00.htm | Jun 10 09:27 |
| it is not a trojan, unless you use IE | Jun 10 09:27 | |
| balzac | I better get back to work | Jun 10 09:28 |
| later | Jun 10 09:28 | |
| balzac | ttyl | Jun 10 09:28 |
| splosion | tah | Jun 10 09:28 |
| ah ha, the reason, " , they can let those people continue to use Outlook but allow IT managers to move completely away from Exchange servers" | Jun 10 09:29 | |
| Leave the fanboys with their toys. | Jun 10 09:29 | |
| fix one problem at a time. | Jun 10 09:29 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft Pulling a Xen on Vyatta? < http://ping.fm/2Cyyt > | Jun 10 09:30 | |
| "OK, John, you can keep your Outlook. Just be sure to make backups of this less than 2GB collection of your mail, contacts and everything file. It blows up and loses everything often." | Jun 10 09:31 | |
| splosion | http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090610-703111.html | Jun 10 09:32 |
| twitter sleeps now | Jun 10 09:35 | |
| *EDavidBurg doesn't sleep; he waits | Jun 10 09:35 | |
| *EDavidBurg also steals bad chuck norris jokes | Jun 10 09:35 | |
| schestowitz | splosion: thanks for the URLs | Jun 10 09:37 |
| EDavidBurg | do FOSS language learning apps exist a la Rosetta Stone? | Jun 10 09:37 |
| schestowitz | I'll do an article about the Weir thing | Jun 10 09:38 |
| splosion | EDavidBurg: I'd like to know too. Never come across any beyond a few children's games | Jun 10 09:38 |
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| splosion | EDavidBurg: there's a couple of flashcard-type apps too | Jun 10 09:40 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft Windows Discriminates Against ODF, FSF Denounces Microsoft http://ping.fm/dLJmh | Jun 10 09:47 |
| splosion | http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Applauded-as-Investor-in-the-Future-113752.shtml | Jun 10 09:47 |
| splosion | Microsoft partners in Education. Hrmm http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/06/10/technology/technology_30104811.php | Jun 10 09:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Windows Discriminates Against ODF, FSF Denounces Microsoft http://ping.fm/dLJmh | Jun 10 09:50 | |
| splosion | "As such, we view this collaboration between the Ministry of Education and Microsoft Thailand as well aligned with these goals and the national education act, in terms of providing more educational opportunities and access, as well as encouraging greater learning through ICT." | Jun 10 09:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] http://twitpic.com/7192a - Still on holiday! Off on the boat to Wareham. | Jun 10 09:55 | |
| schestowitz | Not Thailand again... *sigh* | Jun 10 09:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] http://twitpic.com/7195q - Arrived at Wareham! My adventures on a XP netbook continue... | Jun 10 10:00 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Accused of Anti-ODF Whisper Campaign http://ping.fm/003xJ | Jun 10 10:15 | |
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| splosion | time for work | Jun 10 10:19 |
| schestowitz | Thanks | Jun 10 10:19 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Less than a week with XP and already been a victim of a trojan. God knows what it was doing... | Jun 10 10:35 | |
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| MinceR | r4wr | Jun 10 10:41 |
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| Omar87 | Hey there! | Jun 10 10:49 |
| Omar87 | Guys you gotta check this out: http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3824231 | Jun 10 10:49 |
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| trmanco | http://svn.wikimedia.org/svnroot/mediawiki/tags/REL1_15_0/phase3/RELEASE-NOTES | Jun 10 11:18 |
| ushimitsudoki | My thoughts on the latest Banshee push: http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/2009/06/10/disinformation-disinfected-pt-3-banshee-in-ubuntu/ | Jun 10 11:19 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] MediaWiki 1.15.0 released: http://ur1.ca/5gb8 | Jun 10 11:25 | |
| oiaohm | Banshee has the does not scale problem. There is a perl program out there on large music arcives that out does Banshee on speed and memory usage ushimitsudoki. | Jun 10 11:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Linux 2.6.30 has been released: http://ur1.ca/5gbd || Changelog since 2.6.29->http://ur1.ca/5gbc | Jun 10 11:30 | |
| trmanco | "obviously some of the forum moderators are novell employees (or people | Jun 10 11:31 |
| trmanco | who drink they're koolaid) who are censoring respectable people like | Jun 10 11:31 |
| trmanco | neighborlee when they speak of the dangers of MONO" | Jun 10 11:31 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, do you know who Mark Fink is? | Jun 10 11:31 |
| trmanco | "perhaps neighborlee or roy schestowitz should be an ubuntu forum | Jun 10 11:33 |
| trmanco | moderator to bring fairness to the forums?" | Jun 10 11:33 |
| oiaohm | trmanco: fairness is a person type. Person should be aware of there own bias's and not filter forum chat when there own biases are in play. | Jun 10 11:52 |
| oiaohm | Reason why forums normally have more than 1 moderator. | Jun 10 11:52 |
| oiaohm | No single person on earth is without bias over something. | Jun 10 11:52 |
| oiaohm | Failing not to act when your bias is in play is a sign of a person not suitable to be a forum moderator. | Jun 10 11:53 |
| oiaohm | That is universal for all good forum moderators. | Jun 10 11:54 |
| oiaohm | It is normal for people to try to name other people to redirect problem away from themselves. Ubuntu forums lack rules on moderators over conflit of interest so these problems happen. | Jun 10 11:55 |
| trmanco | that's why I stopped using forums | Jun 10 11:57 |
| oiaohm | No matter who is put there without rules over conflit of interest it will keep on happening. | Jun 10 11:58 |
| oiaohm | Its not just mono either with problems in the Ubuntu forums. | Jun 10 11:58 |
| balzac | that's true | Jun 10 11:59 |
| balzac | but there's an ebb and flow to these kinds of problems | Jun 10 12:01 |
| balzac | I'd like to see mono blocked | Jun 10 12:01 |
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| balzac | imagine two warships, the Microsoft and the GNU, locked in a struggle. A boarding platform was dropped by the Microsoft across the gap in order to board the GNU. The Microsoft's hull is breached and they're trying to take over the only sea-worthy boat left. | Jun 10 12:04 |
| balzac | The crew of the GNU is trying to disengage the two ships because the battle is won. The crew of the Microsoft is trying to stay engaged. | Jun 10 12:05 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Jun 10 12:05 |
| oiaohm | MS is trying to steal the GNU ships crew to row there live boat. | Jun 10 12:05 |
| oiaohm | live/life | Jun 10 12:06 |
| balzac | sure | Jun 10 12:07 |
| balzac | Novell and Mono are the boarding platform from Microsoft | Jun 10 12:07 |
| oiaohm | win32 applications are mostly locked to x86 platform. | Jun 10 12:07 |
| balzac | mono is the hook | Jun 10 12:07 |
| oiaohm | MS need to break free of that with arm and other processors in the market. | Jun 10 12:08 |
| oiaohm | They need programmers to do it. | Jun 10 12:08 |
| balzac | If the crew of the GNU can block mono, Novell is left hanging in the water. | Jun 10 12:08 |
| oiaohm | So are trying to take open source ones to do it. | Jun 10 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Basically MS is slowly been pulled and broken up on a reef. | Jun 10 12:09 |
| balzac | The Microsoft has spies on board the GNU | Jun 10 12:09 |
| balzac | yep, their ship is listing, taking on water | Jun 10 12:09 |
| oiaohm | Without a fast enough boat to get out the reef they are going to be destroyed by it. | Jun 10 12:09 |
| balzac | and the captain is promising treasure for loyal deck hands and fighters | Jun 10 12:10 |
| oiaohm | And to members on the sea worthy ship not effected by the reef to save them. | Jun 10 12:10 |
| balzac | The GNU doesn't have a lot of loot, but their ship is stout and the crew is healthy | Jun 10 12:10 |
| oiaohm | And with good navigation so its avoiding boat sinking reefs. | Jun 10 12:11 |
| balzac | yep, that's where the captain of "The Microsoft" failed | Jun 10 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Some people in the windows navigation were drunk at wheel. | Jun 10 12:11 |
| balzac | they lost their sextant and never learned celestial navigation | Jun 10 12:12 |
| oiaohm | That is a more truthful state of the word. | Jun 10 12:12 |
| oiaohm | Ie MS is desperate and getting more desperate by the day. | Jun 10 12:12 |
| oiaohm | They cannot say there ship is breaking up because if they do and they leave like rats they will sink and loss there treasure. | Jun 10 12:13 |
| balzac | But some of the crew-members on the GNU are fond of mutiny | Jun 10 12:14 |
| balzac | and others are naive about the threat of taking on crew members from the Microsoft | Jun 10 12:14 |
| balzac | they'll cut the ropes and the sails if they're allowed onto the GNU | Jun 10 12:14 |
| balzac | But it's really more like two battling armadas | Jun 10 12:15 |
| balzac | yeah, they can't admit they're sinking | Jun 10 12:16 |
| oiaohm | but its not just 2 sided. | Jun 10 12:16 |
| oiaohm | You have hardware companies ie the sea causing MS problems. | Jun 10 12:16 |
| balzac | but the captain and first mate are already sneaking away with the treasure under the cover of darkness | Jun 10 12:17 |
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| oiaohm | So causing MS to cause the other side trouble. | Jun 10 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Think about it long time ago MS would have never allowed mono to be on Linux. | Jun 10 12:17 |
| oiaohm | That it is MS is in trouble. | Jun 10 12:18 |
| balzac | They'd have preferred to sink the GNU with cannon fire from afar, rather than trying to board their ship. | Jun 10 12:18 |
| balzac | By winning the SCO case, for example | Jun 10 12:18 |
| oiaohm | Back then the sea was on there side too. | Jun 10 12:19 |
| oiaohm | These days hardware companies are being nicer to GNU and Opensource. | Jun 10 12:19 |
| balzac | The hardware companies could be land-based cultures | Jun 10 12:20 |
| balzac | granting or witholding supplies needed by the ships crews | Jun 10 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Basically what ever story you make up to describe MS problems. It has to have 3 sides. MS, Open source and hardware. | Jun 10 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Missing hardware misses a key factor. | Jun 10 12:21 |
| balzac | How about users? | Jun 10 12:21 |
| balzac | supposing the software ships are traders, users are the ones who'll receive the goods in transit | Jun 10 12:22 |
| oiaohm | Really would it matter how good the OS was if it had no hardware to run on balzac | Jun 10 12:22 |
| balzac | of course | Jun 10 12:22 |
| oiaohm | Users need hardware. | Jun 10 12:22 |
| balzac | most people live on land | Jun 10 12:22 |
| oiaohm | Linux weakness in the video side has been lack of hardware support. | Jun 10 12:23 |
| _Mutex_ | So if MS tries to support the GPL and open source they are evil, and if they dont support GPL/FOSS they are evil, I can see how MS has alot of choice here LOL | Jun 10 12:23 |
| balzac | Microsoft has been dominating the straights | Jun 10 12:23 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: wrong | Jun 10 12:23 |
| oiaohm | MS does not want to touch GPLv3 | Jun 10 12:23 |
| balzac | MS has never once tried supporting computer users' freedom | Jun 10 12:24 |
| balzac | Microsoft would be more like IBM if they were more pragmatic about licenses. | Jun 10 12:24 |
| _Mutex_ | Neither Does Linus Torvalds, your point is ? | Jun 10 12:24 |
| splosion | Microsoft would rather the GPL magically vanish of the face of the earth | Jun 10 12:24 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: under no conditions has MS ever pretended to support GPL. In fact, they are very clearly opposed to GPL and spend a lot of effort separating GPL and Open Source in people's minds | Jun 10 12:24 |
| oiaohm | MS will allow stuff to be released in upto GPL v2 | Jun 10 12:25 |
| oiaohm | GPLv3 that shuts down there patent guns they don't want to touch. | Jun 10 12:25 |
| balzac | Bill Gates has a lot of ego invested in his ideological position which is opposed to the idea that freedom of users matters. | Jun 10 12:25 |
| _Mutex_ | Allthough they create GPL'd software, just like any other FOSS company, so why is MS different,, oh wait | Jun 10 12:25 |
| oiaohm | MS wants to keep patent guns on Open source. | Jun 10 12:26 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: GPLv2 which doesn't have the new protection against software patents. | Jun 10 12:26 |
| balzac | Microsoft lost the battle on copyright, so now they assert patent claims | Jun 10 12:26 |
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| oiaohm | MS created the theory that patents could destroy open source. | Jun 10 12:26 |
| balzac | it's desperate and bad | Jun 10 12:26 |
| _Mutex_ | They cant release code under the GPL and have it patented encoumbered, its in the license guys !! | Jun 10 12:26 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: could you point to a GPL project MS has created or supported? | Jun 10 12:26 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: not "Open Source". I mean GPL-licensed. | Jun 10 12:26 |
| balzac | ushimitsudoki: indirectly, Microsoft has funded the development of GPL-licensed projects through Novell, but the only reason is to use these as Trojan Horses to deliver patent claims against GNU/Linux operating systems. | Jun 10 12:27 |
| balzac | They're trying to pollute the GPL-licensed code-base with patented code. | Jun 10 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Only gplv2 balzac | Jun 10 12:28 |
| balzac | Novell is the typhoid mary | Jun 10 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | GPL is the FOSS license right ??? im fairly sure it is, | Jun 10 12:28 |
| balzac | yep | Jun 10 12:28 |
| ushimitsudoki | balzac: directly. "indirectly" is too flexible. MS is very anti-GPL. They at least pretended to tolerate Open Source | Jun 10 12:28 |
| balzac | only GPLv2 | Jun 10 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 10 12:28 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: No. GPL is one of many FLOSS licenses | Jun 10 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | Well the Linux Kernel is GPLv2 sure | Jun 10 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | But it is ONE right !! | Jun 10 12:28 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: I mean projects that Microsoft is directly involved in - as in has contributed code to | Jun 10 12:28 |
| balzac | ushimitsudoki: it's true, but they're desperate, so they've been funding Novell while Novell churns out GPL-licensed code. It's a gamble. | Jun 10 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Particular licences nukes patents _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:28 |
| _Mutex_ | http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 10 12:29 |
| _Mutex_ | again, | Jun 10 12:29 |
| oiaohm | GPLv2 patent solid state has not been tested. | Jun 10 12:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | balzac: MS "through" Novell doesn't count, I think. I mean MS *directly* contributing code to a GPL-licensed project | Jun 10 12:29 |
| _Mutex_ | does that mean its not a GPL / FOSS license then ? | Jun 10 12:29 |
| ushimitsudoki | That's what I thought _Mutex_ was talking about | Jun 10 12:29 |
| balzac | Mono is like a dead cow carcass which has been flung aboard our ship from Microsoft | Jun 10 12:29 |
| balzac | full of rot and disease | Jun 10 12:30 |
| balzac | ushimitsudoki: your point stands | Jun 10 12:30 |
| balzac | they do not directly contribute to GPL-licensed projects | Jun 10 12:30 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: GPL is a Foss licence. GPL 2.0 is not a protecting from patent attacks like GPL 3.0 is. | Jun 10 12:30 |
| _Mutex_ | Well if the GPL allows for that then that is a problem with the GPL not MS or anyone else | Jun 10 12:30 |
| splosion | Microsoft sponsored the development of the CleverAge plugin for ODF support in Office. It's even hosted on Sourceforge. It has a very permissive BSD Licence. The CleverAge plugin is actully pretty good. Wonder why they haven't used it for MS Office SP2 instead of the piece of shit they made instead | Jun 10 12:30 |
| balzac | only to projects with an "academic" open source style license | Jun 10 12:30 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel is different OIN project has huge patent list to be used to protect it. | Jun 10 12:30 |
| ushimitsudoki | splosion: that doesn't count. I am making a point that MS is very specifically anti-GPL | Jun 10 12:30 |
| balzac | MS is explicitly anti-copyleft | Jun 10 12:31 |
| ushimitsudoki | splosion: MS is fine with BSD. They even used to have BSD tcp.ip stack in Windows. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| oiaohm | So even that its GPL 2.0 attacking linux kernel can basically cripple a OS company. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Due to the patents from IBM and others sitting in OIN. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| ushimitsudoki | splosion: they have no problem using BSD-licensed code. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| oiaohm | You don't have a patent list on mono to protect self from attack. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| splosion | ushimitsudoki: Oh don't worry I know. I'm just pointing out that Microsoft could have used that code for Office. They chose not to. | Jun 10 12:31 |
| ushimitsudoki | splosion: oh right, that's correct :) | Jun 10 12:32 |
| _Mutex_ | Read the GPL, you are not allowed to have patent encombered code in GPL, ask TOMTOM i fyou forgot | Jun 10 12:32 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: patent explicit stuff in in GPL v3 | Jun 10 12:32 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: in GPLv3 you mean? | Jun 10 12:32 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: not so much in v2 | Jun 10 12:32 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: that was kinda one of the big issues with the MS/Novell deal | Jun 10 12:32 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: TomTom settled with MS, didn't they? | Jun 10 12:33 |
| _Mutex_ | So by definition GPL cant have patents, and GPL code is approved by the FSF, so if FSF issues GPL to MS who are we to argue ? | Jun 10 12:33 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: there is not 1 GPL licence | Jun 10 12:33 |
| _Mutex_ | Settled by removing the offending code and payout out, and giving up further patents, | Jun 10 12:33 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: what the hell are you talking about? "FSF issues GPL to MS"? What does that even mean? | Jun 10 12:33 |
| oiaohm | There is GPL 1.0 GPL 2.0 and GPL 3.0 | Jun 10 12:33 |
| ushimitsudoki | That's not even science. | Jun 10 12:33 |
| balzac | the patent indemnification deal was the kiss of reeking corruption, which Novell gladly accepted for a sack of gold bullion | Jun 10 12:33 |
| _Mutex_ | FSF approves the GPL, they are the arbitors of the GPL | Jun 10 12:34 |
| oiaohm | GPL 2.0 in the case of freetype and mp3 both have patent affected code stated. | Jun 10 12:34 |
| oiaohm | So yes you can ship patent effected code without licence in GPLv2. | Jun 10 12:34 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: no one "approves" the GPL - it is a license you can apply to your copyrighted works - I think you are unclear on the GPL and licensing in general maybe? | Jun 10 12:34 |
| balzac | Novell, once a lady of renown, now unwelcome in society | Jun 10 12:35 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: or maybe I don't understand too :) | Jun 10 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Basically _Mutex_ your argument does not hold water that GPLv2 gives you 100 percent protection. | Jun 10 12:35 |
| balzac | _Mutex_ probably knows better | Jun 10 12:35 |
| oiaohm | In tomtom case Microsoft found themself facing a bigger patent list. | Jun 10 12:35 |
| oiaohm | That could have blocked MS from shipping OS's completely. | Jun 10 12:36 |
| oiaohm | Ie Tomtom joined OIN then the complete ball game changed. | Jun 10 12:36 |
| _Mutex_ | except by all accounts TOMTOM lost out ,and gave up extra patents to MS, IF TOMTOM actually had a case, the FOSS law fed would have backed them in a fight | Jun 10 12:36 |
| _Mutex_ | But guess what, they didnt stand behind TOMTOM and they folded. | Jun 10 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Incorrect _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:37 |
| _Mutex_ | Tell me your "version" of history then pls | Jun 10 12:37 |
| balzac | TomTom probably got a combination of carrot and stick from MS | Jun 10 12:37 |
| oiaohm | There were patents outside the Linux kernel that were valid against tomtom. | Jun 10 12:37 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: on the patent issue: "GPLv3 also provides for explicit patent protection of the users from the program's contributors and redistributors. With GPLv2, users rely on an implicit patent license to make sure that the company which provided them a copy won't sue them, or the people they redistribute copies to, for patent infringement." http://gplv3.fsf.org/rms-why.html | Jun 10 12:37 |
| balzac | they just got intimidated, they didn't think they'd fare well if they fought | Jun 10 12:37 |
| oiaohm | MS applied 8 patents against tomtom _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Only 2 applied to the Linux kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:38 |
| _Mutex_ | Tom tom had the ability to take it to court, but decided they did not have a strong case, and folded. | Jun 10 12:38 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: There is not explicit patent protection in GPL v2. Do you think there is? | Jun 10 12:38 |
| _Mutex_ | I know, and I know what TOMTOM Did too, so do you | Jun 10 12:38 |
| oiaohm | 6 patents unbreakable. | Jun 10 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Of course you would fold _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:38 |
| splosion | TomTom were an easy target. Of course they caved in. What did you expect? Ask yourself why Microsoft has never gone directly up against one of the big Linux vendors. It might have something to do with those vendors actually being capable of defending themselves. | Jun 10 12:38 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: Do you think TomTom could have "folded" because they simply don't have the money to fight MS? Do you think everyone that settles out of court is "guilty"? | Jun 10 12:39 |
| oiaohm | The 2 Linux kernel ones were breakable and OIN and open soruce guys were prepaid to fight them out. | Jun 10 12:39 |
| MinceR | I Know What TomTom Did Last Summer? :> | Jun 10 12:39 |
| _Mutex_ | why did the "big linux vendors" stand behind FOSS and TOMTOM and their product considering the threat it was under ? | Jun 10 12:39 |
| oiaohm | I have the patent numbers here somewhere _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:39 |
| _Mutex_ | I know why | Jun 10 12:39 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: you are badly wrong. | Jun 10 12:40 |
| _Mutex_ | I know there were patents, so what | Jun 10 12:40 |
| balzac | Microsoft tried with the SCO case to de-legitimize GNU/Linux. They failed, and since then, the strong GNU/Linux companies haven't flinched at all. | Jun 10 12:40 |
| _Mutex_ | and you know why too im sure | Jun 10 12:40 |
| oiaohm | The 6 patents that were unbreakable refered to what. | Jun 10 12:40 |
| balzac | The weak ones have been consumed by Microsoft's corruption. Novell is on the way down. | Jun 10 12:40 |
| oiaohm | In car navigation tech _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes MS did some early research in that field. | Jun 10 12:40 |
| _Mutex_ | Well oiaohm im sure if TOMTOM and OIN felt they had even a slim chance they would have taken the decision to force software patent reform | Jun 10 12:41 |
| _Mutex_ | but instead, what did they do again. ? | Jun 10 12:41 |
| _Mutex_ | Thats right,, they caved | Jun 10 12:41 |
| oiaohm | OIN is still trying to get MS to go head to head with them over the 2 patents. | Jun 10 12:41 |
| oiaohm | So not caved. | Jun 10 12:41 |
| zoobab01 | for prior art, not for subject matter | Jun 10 12:41 |
| oiaohm | To be correct both patents are under review to be canseled. | Jun 10 12:41 |
| zoobab01 | because of IBM | Jun 10 12:42 |
| *magentar has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jun 10 12:42 | |
| oiaohm | So not caved _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:42 |
| oiaohm | The patents will most likely go by by. | Jun 10 12:42 |
| oiaohm | Without needing a long court case to do it. | Jun 10 12:42 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: I think characterizing the result as "caving" is a bit unfair. Perhaps you should read up on it a bit more: http://groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090330130655372 | Jun 10 12:42 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: basically TomTom said "not worth it, we'll work around your patents" and got out of court (which is what most business would do, I should think) | Jun 10 12:43 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: do you define caving as straight after tomtom backed off OIN placing prior art submissions on the two patents. | Jun 10 12:43 |
| _Mutex_ | well paying MS and giving them their patents they were going to use against MS and promising not to use their code for a number of years after claiming they were going to take MS to court and fight is a cave by any measure | Jun 10 12:44 |
| oiaohm | Who is paying who _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:44 |
| _Mutex_ | Yes, not worth the risk of losing, and their advice said they would probably lose, so the opportunity to get some patent reform in the courts was lost. | Jun 10 12:44 |
| _Mutex_ | Logic is paying me oiaohm, how about you ? | Jun 10 12:45 |
| balzac | A small company doesn't have the luxury of protracted legal struggles. | Jun 10 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Less than 100 000 usd deal over patents. | Jun 10 12:45 |
| *magentar (n=magentar@94.79.158.116) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 12:45 | |
| oiaohm | If you dig deep enough it was not tomtom paying MS. | Jun 10 12:45 |
| _Mutex_ | Gee I would have thought with the full backing of FOSS it would not be a small company. | Jun 10 12:45 |
| balzac | It's as if you're bragging about a bear who won a fight against a rodent. | Jun 10 12:45 |
| oiaohm | You have the cave the wrong way _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:45 |
| oiaohm | Going head to head with someone holding the core patents to OS design when you are selling OS's is stupid. | Jun 10 12:46 |
| oiaohm | OIN holds those. | Jun 10 12:46 |
| balzac | Microsoft can't instill fear in its rivals nowadays. | Jun 10 12:46 |
| _Mutex_ | MS takes TOMTOM to court, TOMTOM say they will fight it and they have their own patents to fight with, time goes by, TOMTOM gets advice and FOSS abondon TOMTOM , and TOMTOM folds to MS's demands, thats what happend, spin it how you like. | Jun 10 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Joining Tomtom joining OIN screwed MS game plan. | Jun 10 12:47 |
| _Mutex_ | Seem to instill considerable fear here :) | Jun 10 12:47 |
| balzac | Beating TomTom is just a bit of theater. Nothing to brag about. | Jun 10 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Here a small company we can bully. | Jun 10 12:47 |
| balzac | here? | Jun 10 12:47 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: it does put some fear in me. I should think it puts fear in most tech-minded businessmen | Jun 10 12:47 |
| oiaohm | Opps they just joined large group with means to nuke us. | Jun 10 12:47 |
| balzac | dang that webex advertisement | Jun 10 12:47 |
| _Mutex_ | why ? | Jun 10 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Better get our selves out there with face intack. | Jun 10 12:48 |
| oiaohm | MS screwed up in the tomtom case _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:48 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: I would be very cautious about incorporating anything MS held patents on, for one thing | Jun 10 12:48 |
| oiaohm | So they had to back off . | Jun 10 12:48 |
| balzac | Gandhi said (paraphrasing) "All tyrants fall, eventually." | Jun 10 12:48 |
| oiaohm | In the past they would have just crushed the small company out of existance _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:48 |
| _Mutex_ | seems like they wanted to achieve a result and seems they achieved it with some success, so how is that "backing off" ?? | Jun 10 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Or forced the Small company to use there OS. | Jun 10 12:48 |
| balzac | I'm not afraid of Microsoft, but I am excited about the opportunities which will inevitably rise as their fortune declines. | Jun 10 12:49 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: I'm not sure what point you hope to make based on the TomTom example. Let's say I agree with your summary of the thing 100%. Ok, so what does it mean? what is your point? | Jun 10 12:49 |
| oiaohm | Is tomtom using windows embeded _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:49 |
| balzac | It will be a great feast | Jun 10 12:49 |
| _Mutex_ | Backing off would be to drop the suit, did MS drop the suit ?? | Jun 10 12:49 |
| oiaohm | answer no _Mutex_ Ms failed in there objective. | Jun 10 12:49 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: MS droped suit first. | Jun 10 12:49 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont care what tomtom use, | Jun 10 12:49 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: I don't know Fink | Jun 10 12:49 |
| schestowitz | He pissed off MarkS before | Jun 10 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom sent in the papper work second _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:50 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: your rhetorical questions are amusing. | Jun 10 12:50 |
| _Mutex_ | MS droped the suit after TOMTOM said "I give" | Jun 10 12:50 |
| schestowitz | He gives us a bad name | Jun 10 12:50 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: MS certainly did NOT "cave". I think it is over-strong to say TomTom "caved", but it is true they agreed to pay MS and drop suit, true. | Jun 10 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Winner does not do that _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:50 |
| _Mutex_ | thanks :) | Jun 10 12:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell Develops for Windows Development Tools < http://ping.fm/dpdaN > | Jun 10 12:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Based on my limited experience with KDE4 this morning, it's fine and good looking. | Jun 10 12:50 | |
| _Mutex_ | I even amuse myself sometimes | Jun 10 12:50 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: So, again, what is your point? Does that show anything more than MS will use patents aggressively? | Jun 10 12:50 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: Does it show anything more than messing about with MS patents is risky? | Jun 10 12:50 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: Just not sure where you are going with this | Jun 10 12:51 |
| _Mutex_ | and give MS some patents and promise not to use MS code, and promise to remove offending code over a period of time and pay MS | Jun 10 12:51 |
| _Mutex_ | TOMTOM also tried to use its patents in defense, and whats my point ?? I don thave a point :) | Jun 10 12:51 |
| oiaohm | Most of those patents are over code outside gpl. | Jun 10 12:51 |
| _Mutex_ | Trolls never do !!! | Jun 10 12:51 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: damn you trolled me good then :) | Jun 10 12:52 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: do you like proprietary software? | Jun 10 12:52 |
| ushimitsudoki | +1 troll cookie to you | Jun 10 12:52 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: do you use windows? | Jun 10 12:52 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom own proprietary code did most of the patents refer to _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:52 |
| _Mutex_ | I like good quality software, well in fact I like what good quality software does | Jun 10 12:52 |
| oiaohm | A point MS made clear early on when OIN stepped up. | Jun 10 12:52 |
| oiaohm | MS does not want to enter into a fight with OIN. | Jun 10 12:53 |
| oiaohm | So you cannot say the TomTom case was a cave over just Open Source. | Jun 10 12:53 |
| _Mutex_ | Like Linus Torvalds I like and use what works for me | Jun 10 12:54 |
| _Mutex_ | But clearly they did, they took TOMTOM to talk, and it was very possible for OIN to step in and defend FOSS | Jun 10 12:54 |
| _Mutex_ | thats what I expected to happen, a good fair fight | Jun 10 12:54 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: so, windows works for you? | Jun 10 12:54 |
| oiaohm | back down was forced by the closed source bits _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:54 |
| _Mutex_ | Sorry, TOMTOM's code is licenses under the GPL | Jun 10 12:54 |
| oiaohm | Not there navivation core software _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:54 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: don't try to fool us, it's a wasted effort. | Jun 10 12:55 |
| _Mutex_ | its against the GPL to have closed and open source mixed in the same application | Jun 10 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Nop _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:55 |
| balzac | you use windows, and without even knowing about TOMTOM, I already knew they had propriary code of their own. | Jun 10 12:55 |
| _Mutex_ | Read the GPL | Jun 10 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Read Linux licence. | Jun 10 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Its not pure GPL. | Jun 10 12:55 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: that's why many companies seperate them in different applications which interoperate | Jun 10 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Dynamic linking to it does not make the code GPL. | Jun 10 12:56 |
| _Mutex_ | saying its not pure GPL is like saying your partly pregnant | Jun 10 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Using syscalls does not make it GPL either. | Jun 10 12:56 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: please stop the silliness | Jun 10 12:56 |
| oiaohm | Tomtom naviation devices are a Linux OS running a closed source program. | Jun 10 12:56 |
| balzac | we all know already that most big "open source" companies are "mixed source" | Jun 10 12:56 |
| oiaohm | So case was not purely over the Linux kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:57 |
| _Mutex_ | the prop code and the FOSS code need to be "at arms leangth" from each other according to the GPL QandA | Jun 10 12:57 |
| _Mutex_ | on the FSF web sight | Jun 10 12:57 |
| _Mutex_ | site* | Jun 10 12:57 |
| balzac | PHP has the Zend Optimizer, Red Hat has proprietary bits, and Enterprise SUSE is loaded with proprietary junk | Jun 10 12:57 |
| schestowitz | bbl | Jun 10 12:58 |
| balzac | not to mention the patent claims of various open source companies | Jun 10 12:58 |
| oiaohm | How tomtom closed source program is done obeys FSF rules. _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:58 |
| oiaohm | What are you _Mutex_ a idiot who cannot read FSF programming guides. | Jun 10 12:58 |
| oiaohm | If you had read them it would tell you how to make something like a tivo or tomtom legally. | Jun 10 12:58 |
| _Mutex_ | ahh, here we go, cant win an argument, so revert to personal attacks, nice oiaohm | Jun 10 12:59 |
| balzac | I can't believe _Mutex_ doesn't already know this, because he dances around, avoiding the truth so nimbly. | Jun 10 12:59 |
| oiaohm | No frustration argument that is made up crap _Mutex_ | Jun 10 12:59 |
| _Mutex_ | what truth balzac? | Jun 10 12:59 |
| balzac | it belies his awareness of these obvious things we tell him, and his disingenuinous. | Jun 10 13:00 |
| _Mutex_ | again, what truth please ? | Jun 10 13:00 |
| oiaohm | With the work that has been done on making FSF programming guides readable by normal humans it sad that people still keep on saying myths about licences. | Jun 10 13:00 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: you're not curious | Jun 10 13:00 |
| oiaohm | What either means you are dumb, lazy, language problem or a troll _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:01 |
| balzac | a sincere person who had been corrected this many times in a row would be asking some questions to correct their views | Jun 10 13:01 |
| balzac | but you know better | Jun 10 13:01 |
| oiaohm | I run group tests on the general public of the FSF programming guides _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:01 |
| _Mutex_ | good for you | Jun 10 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Can you now see what its frustation to have these stupid baseless aguments still appearing and trying to use FSF as protection. | Jun 10 13:02 |
| oiaohm | Closed source and GPL can co exist no problems. | Jun 10 13:02 |
| balzac | jeez, it's been happening for so many years | Jun 10 13:02 |
| _Mutex_ | we'll with your great knowledge of the GPL you seem perfectly qualified to clearly address the issues, you probably can do it and keep a civil tongue too :) | Jun 10 13:03 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: do you use windows? | Jun 10 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Just put this way you are the 10 person today with the same stupidity so you coped it _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:03 |
| oiaohm | My tolerance has limits. | Jun 10 13:04 |
| balzac | It's annoying when you argue with people who are willfully obtuse | Jun 10 13:05 |
| balzac | but if _Mutex_ doesn't hurl expletives and threats, he's a lot different from some people who've been here recently | Jun 10 13:06 |
| balzac | I'd gladly replace some of the old debaters with more civil ones | Jun 10 13:06 |
| balzac | I'd rather see the proprietary side of the argument have better representation than those clowns from linsux.org | Jun 10 13:07 |
| oiaohm | Common source of my losing my cool is myths. | Jun 10 13:07 |
| balzac | oiaohm: no matter how persistently obtuse and disingenuous, I'd rather debate a "David Brooks" than a "Glenn Beck" any day of the week. | Jun 10 13:08 |
| oiaohm | Just don't use FSF or anyone else as a shield if you have not truly read there documentation _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:08 |
| oiaohm | Then expect me or someone else not to bite you head off. | Jun 10 13:08 |
| balzac | oiaohm: did you know your nick was mentioned on linsux.org? | Jun 10 13:08 |
| _Mutex_ | yes if it gets too hot here I will sometimes open a window or two | Jun 10 13:09 |
| oiaohm | If you had said you just beleived that you could not have mixed them I would have explained it out nicely. | Jun 10 13:09 |
| balzac | if _Mutex_ has a sense of humor, he's doing a lot better than many others. The jury is out, but I'm not easily offended. | Jun 10 13:09 |
| oiaohm | You did one thing that gets on my bad side quicky. | Jun 10 13:10 |
| _Mutex_ | thats a BIG IF balzac !! | Jun 10 13:10 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: if you're generally socially aware, you'll have no problems here | Jun 10 13:11 |
| splosion | this conversation has gone stale. Somebody hurry up and drop a Godwin on it. | Jun 10 13:12 |
| ushimitsudoki | Hitler ran mono. There. Done. | Jun 10 13:12 |
| balzac | the guys from linsux.org are total cretins. | Jun 10 13:12 |
| splosion | Thanks | Jun 10 13:12 |
| oiaohm | problem is a trolls commonly use linking to FSF and other things to say there arguments are valid when the documentation there does not truly back the up. | Jun 10 13:12 |
| _Mutex_ | Hitler WAS A mono !!! | Jun 10 13:13 |
| balzac | One of my good friend's dads works for Microsoft. I'll never squabble with him about it. | Jun 10 13:13 |
| ushimitsudoki | oiaohm: you got trolled, dont' sweat it. I got trolled too. It happens to us all. I just shake my fist at the sky and swear VENGANCE!!! | Jun 10 13:13 |
| balzac | though I hope for his own career, he'll make a gradual transition to more mainstream technology | Jun 10 13:14 |
| oiaohm | I have given the linsux admins fair warning. | Jun 10 13:14 |
| oiaohm | If they do stuff wrong and I have there site removed they cannot complain to me now. | Jun 10 13:14 |
| balzac | i warned them as well. | Jun 10 13:15 |
| oiaohm | Never tell people to do anything without knowing what the result will be. One of the rules of IT. | Jun 10 13:15 |
| _Mutex_ | oiaohm is there a web site dedicated to dislicking linux ?? really who would have thought that possible !! oh wait.. | Jun 10 13:15 |
| balzac | If they keep talking about how I deserve to die, I'll seek a subpoena to compel discovery of real names | Jun 10 13:15 |
| balzac | because I don't choose to remain anonymous | Jun 10 13:16 |
| oiaohm | The difference here I don't care to remain anonymous | Jun 10 13:16 |
| balzac | I'm too busy trying to promote my business to be sneaking around like a fool | Jun 10 13:16 |
| ushimitsudoki | linsux is pretty bad - a little to0 close to 4chan stuff instead of say adequacy.org stuff | Jun 10 13:16 |
| oiaohm | My real world id is not that well hidden. | Jun 10 13:16 |
| ushimitsudoki | plus that one guy has michael graves as his avatar | Jun 10 13:16 |
| balzac | 4chan is at least producing some funny content | Jun 10 13:17 |
| splosion | I don't honestly think death threats are anything to worry about. The internet isn't as bad as all that. Just pray nobody ever invents teleportation. Then we'd all be fucked. | Jun 10 13:17 |
| _Mutex_ | so people being critical of Linux is hurting you ? | Jun 10 13:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | what kind of faggot likes the misfits with graves on vocals? Danzig is the man | Jun 10 13:17 |
| balzac | they'd love to compare themselves with 4chan, but the racial slurs in 4chan are much more casual and less angst-driven | Jun 10 13:17 |
| ushimitsudoki | music snob FTW | Jun 10 13:17 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: them giving the members directions to do thing in a way that someone implementing a botnet could do. Could be long term harmful yes _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:18 |
| oiaohm | If they were just taking about defects in Linux and hating Linux I would not have a problem with them _Mutex_. | Jun 10 13:18 |
| oiaohm | When they become a risk to network operations that is when I get upset with people. | Jun 10 13:18 |
| balzac | splosion: I find it unpleasant when anonymous trolls try to intimidate me | Jun 10 13:19 |
| _Mutex_ | like how sometimes people will be "outted" in BN and their personal details being posted on the BN web site, ,, yes i can see how that would be annoying. | Jun 10 13:19 |
| oiaohm | Heck if they were truly good at hating Linux I would be there looking for defects. | Jun 10 13:19 |
| oiaohm | One of there actions if the wrong person picked it up could have taken down fsdaily. And there have been others _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:19 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: I choose not to be anonymous | Jun 10 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Unless they get more responsiable for there actions sooner or latter they will cause major harm. | Jun 10 13:20 |
| oiaohm | Then I can take there domain name off those fools. | Jun 10 13:21 |
| balzac | I announced my given name | Jun 10 13:21 |
| balzac | I do it regularly | Jun 10 13:21 |
| balzac | I don't worry about getting my identity "outed" | Jun 10 13:21 |
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| oiaohm | It would not be the first site like linsux I have had removed from the internet. Most have been race based. | Jun 10 13:22 |
| balzac | but, I don't seek to "out" others unless they're persistently attacking from behind anonymity | Jun 10 13:22 |
| balzac | oiaohm: removing their site is less of an objective than revealing the registrant and admin | Jun 10 13:22 |
| oiaohm | There are people _Mutex_ like me who will protect network operations. | Jun 10 13:22 |
| balzac | or the real names behind given pseudonyms | Jun 10 13:23 |
| balzac | But I sure wouldn't want my given name on the crap they've written | Jun 10 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | oimohm, what does thatmean ? | Jun 10 13:23 |
| oiaohm | They can talk all the crap they like. | Jun 10 13:23 |
| splosion | in my experience, most of the stuff at linsux is laughing at retarded posts from the ubuntu forums. If people are willing to do some trolling about Linux, and willing to go to ewar about it too, all it means is Linux is doing well. Nobody would bother dissing Linux if it was a nothing movement, not even microsoft | Jun 10 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | you unofficial internet cop ? | Jun 10 13:23 |
| balzac | If they were smart, they'd delete the most egregious threads of racist commentary | Jun 10 13:23 |
| _Mutex_ | but you diss windows, so is it doint well too ? | Jun 10 13:24 |
| balzac | Then they could come out and be legit, join the conversation in person. | Jun 10 13:24 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: I am not a cop. I am a investerager of system breakins. | Jun 10 13:24 |
| splosion | _Mutex_: Windows was installed on a heck of a lot of computers last time I looked | Jun 10 13:24 |
| _Mutex_ | Sure is | Jun 10 13:24 |
| oiaohm | And other network disruptions _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:24 |
| oiaohm | The actions that linsux are doing tells me from history of other sites sooner or latter will trigger an attack on other sites. | Jun 10 13:25 |
| oiaohm | So allowing them to be destroyed. | Jun 10 13:25 |
| balzac | Even if I knew the names of the linsux trolls, I would not necessarily divulge it. | Jun 10 13:25 |
| _Mutex_ | like a NCSI wow oiaohm | Jun 10 13:26 |
| _Mutex_ | and what has that got to do with you oiaohm ? | Jun 10 13:26 |
| balzac | But I would suggest to them they delete their most offensive content and desist from any more belligerant talk of violence | Jun 10 13:26 |
| oiaohm | More often than not my job is to make sure attacker does not get back in _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:26 |
| balzac | But I'd like to know their names for my own satisfaction. | Jun 10 13:26 |
| oiaohm | If I happen to trace attack source to a site I had the information over and they get destroyed. | Jun 10 13:27 |
| _Mutex_ | oiaohm, i did that for awile too, but my thing was to stop them before they got in the first time,,,,,, but thats just me. | Jun 10 13:27 |
| splosion | Racist stuff really doesn't bother me, tbh. I've seen enough 4chan memes to desensitize myself. And anyway, expecting any site to make its content more palatable is a lost cause | Jun 10 13:28 |
| oiaohm | I am in a responce team so when people with skills fail _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:28 |
| oiaohm | I really will be happy when windows server are gone. | Jun 10 13:29 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure thats really impressive oiaohm :) | Jun 10 13:30 |
| balzac | splosion: whether or not it bothers me depends on how much real racist animosity the source of it. | Jun 10 13:30 |
| balzac | Some people just like to be playful in a way they can't be in real life. | Jun 10 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Most cases people are failing because they don't read the documentation on security and set it up right _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:30 |
| splosion | Well, here's the thing. In germany, holocaust-deniers are charged. I think that's retarded. If you believe something so fucked, you should be allowed to speak in public and then get intellectually torn apart, and laughed at, and all the rest of it. Same goes for the stuff you see online, too. | Jun 10 13:31 |
| balzac | Others like to be indulgent in their ethnic biases. | Jun 10 13:31 |
| balzac | but the worst are trying to incite violence. | Jun 10 13:31 |
| oiaohm | I don't really call it impressive work. Over 96 percent of what I do is because admins are incompetent at there jobs _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:31 |
| balzac | linsux.org is not the worst I've seen. | Jun 10 13:31 |
| _Mutex_ | I know, as I said ive been in the IT and computer industry for about 35 years now, very very succesfull | Jun 10 13:31 |
| balzac | not by a long shot. | Jun 10 13:31 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: are you Mark Shuttleworth? | Jun 10 13:32 |
| oiaohm | Lot falls on MS cerfied training by the way _Mutex_ | Jun 10 13:32 |
| _Mutex_ | no i said i was very successful :) | Jun 10 13:32 |
| ushimitsudoki | _Mutex_: ha! | Jun 10 13:32 |
| _Mutex_ | :D | Jun 10 13:32 |
| balzac | it was the combination which offended me. you've got to back off when you're anonymous and you're attacking someone who chooses not to remain anonymous. | Jun 10 13:32 |
| oiaohm | That really does teach people wrong leaving many key doors open. | Jun 10 13:33 |
| _Mutex_ | anyone ever noticed Mark Shuttleworth's Initials are MS !!!!!! oooohhhhh | Jun 10 13:33 |
| ushimitsudoki | alright peeps I'm not very very sucessful, which means I have to go to bed for work tommorrow | Jun 10 13:33 |
| balzac | naked aggression, arrogance, racial insensitivity, and lame software - that's linsux.org for you | Jun 10 13:33 |
| ushimitsudoki | laters | Jun 10 13:33 |
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| _Mutex_ | just make a heap of money and retire :) | Jun 10 13:33 |
| _Mutex_ | so you can spend all day on BN trolling LOL | Jun 10 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Or me have a bot to do most of my tracking for me. | Jun 10 13:34 |
| oiaohm | So I can be talking here and working at the same time. | Jun 10 13:35 |
| balzac | so, _Mutex_ what's your favorite application? | Jun 10 13:35 |
| balzac | or your top five | Jun 10 13:35 |
| _Mutex_ | IsaGraf | Jun 10 13:35 |
| balzac | i'm not sure what my favorite app is | Jun 10 13:36 |
| balzac | i use emacs every day and I like it pretty well | Jun 10 13:36 |
| oiaohm | My favorite app for mucking around is blender. | Jun 10 13:37 |
| balzac | blender is a lot of fun | Jun 10 13:37 |
| _Mutex_ | my five favorates , an internet browser, a word processor, a DB and CAD package, LabVIEW, a spreadsheet, and a computer and operating system that allows me to use what i want to use | Jun 10 13:37 |
| balzac | isagraf is an engineering app, i see | Jun 10 13:37 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, SCADA | Jun 10 13:37 |
| _Mutex_ | industrial control and automation | Jun 10 13:38 |
| balzac | i'm partial to firefox, as a web developer. | Jun 10 13:38 |
| _Mutex_ | good ol google eh :) | Jun 10 13:38 |
| balzac | i did use google | Jun 10 13:38 |
| oiaohm | I am currently working on a bit person tracking software with blender. | Jun 10 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Making it simpler to work out who could have done what by where they were | Jun 10 13:39 |
| _Mutex_ | oh yea, a good C and C++ compiler, and some embedded C compilers as well, would be what I use the most, mostly embedded real time c | Jun 10 13:39 |
| balzac | i haven't done much compiling, but I have a feeling there'll be plenty of C programming in my future | Jun 10 13:39 |
| oiaohm | I guess like me generate hate of gcc overall program optimistation is lack of it. | Jun 10 13:39 |
| _Mutex_ | with gcc in embedded its better to build it, and then work throught the machine source code and optimise it by hand | Jun 10 13:40 |
| _Mutex_ | for those who can remember how to code in assembly !!! | Jun 10 13:40 |
| balzac | you've got to have a good reason to optimize in such a tedious way, i suppose | Jun 10 13:41 |
| balzac | what kind of embedded application can afford it? | Jun 10 13:42 |
| _Mutex_ | for real time embedded you have a good reason | Jun 10 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Most of the time these days I go llvm not gcc. | Jun 10 13:42 |
| balzac | i've only used the gcc so far | Jun 10 13:42 |
| oiaohm | So that object to object optimisations are done. | Jun 10 13:42 |
| oiaohm | reducing down the ammount of asm I have to play with. | Jun 10 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Really with the gcc lto project would get complete soon. | Jun 10 13:43 |
| oiaohm | with/wish | Jun 10 13:43 |
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| balzac | i better get back to my work... | Jun 10 13:44 |
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| balzac | roy should take that bit about the battle at sea and feature it | Jun 10 13:45 |
| balzac | maybe i'll put it on www.disruptech.com | Jun 10 13:45 |
| _Mutex_ | the anology is not apt !!!! "NOT APT" !!!!! | Jun 10 13:45 |
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| balzac | time will tell | Jun 10 13:46 |
| gool | Hi guys can you help me with a problem, i have an ubuntu hardy installation now about 3 days the system crashed it tried fixing it but no luck, it says that the X server has crashed due to an internal error. What can i do ? if i cannot fix it is there a chance to save my data? | Jun 10 13:46 |
| balzac | gool: log in with a terminal | Jun 10 13:47 |
| balzac | yes, you can save your data | Jun 10 13:47 |
| _Mutex_ | and get x going too i hope | Jun 10 13:47 |
| gool | but can i fix ubuntu | Jun 10 13:47 |
| balzac | ask for some advice in bash. also ask in #ubuntu for help re-installing your desktop-environment | Jun 10 13:47 |
| splosion | gool: what was the last thing you did before your system crashed? | Jun 10 13:48 |
| balzac | can you log in and select a terminal session? | Jun 10 13:48 |
| splosion | it sounds to me like your graphics set-up is fucked | Jun 10 13:48 |
| balzac | if your OS is really borked, boot from a utility disk | Jun 10 13:48 |
| splosion | didja install some dodgy display drivers? | Jun 10 13:49 |
| balzac | I wrecked my gnome-desktop-environment in such a way it wouldn't function at all | Jun 10 13:49 |
| balzac | so I logged in with a terminal session and removed and re-installed it | Jun 10 13:49 |
| balzac | twice | Jun 10 13:49 |
| splosion | balzac: you think that's bad? I once accidentally chown'd every file on the computer to be owned by root | Jun 10 13:49 |
| balzac | gnarly | Jun 10 13:49 |
| balzac | I wrecked it by playing with Compiz, fyi | Jun 10 13:50 |
| balzac | splosion: what did you do about it? | Jun 10 13:50 |
| _Mutex_ | install vista ? | Jun 10 13:50 |
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| balzac | gool: seek advice in #ubuntu and #bash | Jun 10 13:50 |
| splosion | backed up my data and nuked it. The permissiones were completely buggered | Jun 10 13:51 |
| balzac | between those two channels, all questions needed to recover should be answered | Jun 10 13:51 |
| balzac | yeah, it figures | Jun 10 13:51 |
| balzac | and that's the kind of thing which doesn't leave a data trail for reversing the action | Jun 10 13:51 |
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| splosion | _Mutex_: I'm a Vista reject. I got a new computer when Vista first came out and it BSOD'd constantly. | Jun 10 13:52 |
| splosion | probably wouldn't have any BSODs at all nowadays, but meh, too late now | Jun 10 13:53 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, welcome to the 21 century :), and your exactly right, seems exceedingly stable I have not seen a BSOD for years, and i work in the industry. | Jun 10 13:54 |
| splosion | Too much stuff I can't be arsed with on Windows now. One of the reasons people never switch operating systems is because they don't like change. I'm no different. | Jun 10 13:56 |
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| _Mutex_ | I have to admit I installed KDE 4.3 for windows yesterday, tried running Kcalk, every single time it crashes, konkurer same deal !! | Jun 10 13:56 |
| splosion | The new KDE has been nothing but trubble for me. I mostly stick with Gnome and Openbox. | Jun 10 13:57 |
| _Mutex_ | exactly, people just go with what they know and what works for them. nothing wrong with that at all | Jun 10 13:57 |
| balzac | nothing wrong with following your taste - unless you get coronary disease from too many McDonalds burgers | Jun 10 13:58 |
| splosion | I still like KDE 3.5, though. Debian Lenny still uses it I think | Jun 10 13:58 |
| balzac | nothing wrong with enjoying Windows, unless your development as a computer user is stifled by arbitrary obstructions to your natural curiosity | Jun 10 13:58 |
| _Mutex_ | trouble is , that KDE for windows is a great idea to get people used to Linux Apps without having to drop windows straight away, | Jun 10 13:58 |
| _Mutex_ | but when you use it, the apps crash, its not a good look | Jun 10 13:59 |
| balzac | if you're a consumate technologist, you deserve better than proprietary software | Jun 10 13:59 |
| balzac | for the sake of your curiosity | Jun 10 13:59 |
| _Mutex_ | people will ask if all foss is that bad !! that cant help foss | Jun 10 13:59 |
| _Mutex_ | but as im saying the FOSS software im trying to use DOES NOT WORK at all, it crashes, and thats just the freaking calculator !! | Jun 10 14:00 |
| balzac | i honestly feel sorry for people who are all bought into proprietary software, like I feel sorry for people who've never tasted better food than McDonalds | Jun 10 14:00 |
| splosion | I don't know. All that trying it out, dipping your toes in, dual-booting or whatever. I just went right ahead and nuked the partition and put Linux in. It ain't so hard. | Jun 10 14:00 |
| _Mutex_ | people are not going to use free software if it constantly fails, no matter how cheap. | Jun 10 14:01 |
| balzac | All the time, I tell people 'you're too inquisitive to use a consumer-grade os' | Jun 10 14:01 |
| balzac | you deserve better | Jun 10 14:01 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: you're speaking of consumers, I suppose | Jun 10 14:01 |
| balzac | others prefer to face all the bugs down as part of a code sharing community | Jun 10 14:01 |
| _Mutex_ | im speaking of installing KDE on windows, so I can run KDE and Linux apps, to try it out to see if its good to use, and when i go to the effort to download and install it | Jun 10 14:02 |
| _Mutex_ | I find the software is un-usable !! ie, you cannot add 2 numbers together in Kcalc !! | Jun 10 14:02 |
| balzac | why not add your numbers with something else? | Jun 10 14:02 |
| _Mutex_ | Mabey because I wanted to try out FOSS to see what it was capable of !! | Jun 10 14:03 |
| splosion | I use a Python shell to do calculations | Jun 10 14:03 |
| balzac | alright, I'm getting back to my work for real now | Jun 10 14:03 |
| balzac | splosion: I was going to suggest something like that | Jun 10 14:03 |
| _Mutex_ | Ofcourse I can use MS calc and do it, or a pocket calculator, but if im trying to evaluate the FOSS Kcalc calculator program, and every time I run it , it does | Jun 10 14:04 |
| _Mutex_ | its an instant turn - off to foss, | Jun 10 14:04 |
| _Mutex_ | "why would i want to try foss, if their Kcalc cant even run" !! | Jun 10 14:04 |
| splosion | Sure, and that needs to be fixed. | Jun 10 14:04 |
| splosion | you're welcome to help :P | Jun 10 14:04 |
| splosion | The KDE for Windows project is still a work in progress anyway, no? | Jun 10 14:06 |
| _Mutex_ | thats true, or i can just use something that works | Jun 10 14:06 |
| balzac | how many modes does your microsoft calculator have? | Jun 10 14:06 |
| _Mutex_ | by definition all FOSS is stall a work in progress, thats how it works | Jun 10 14:06 |
| _Mutex_ | the same modes as Kcalc from what i can see. | Jun 10 14:07 |
| balzac | alright, i'm out... | Jun 10 14:07 |
| Ng | no software is ever finished, except possibly LaTeX ;) | Jun 10 14:07 |
| _Mutex_ | but the best thing about the MS "mode" is its mode of operation is OPERATING. | Jun 10 14:07 |
| splosion | It starts at version 0.1, usually. Version 1.0 is usually the one that's supposed to work. KDE always seems to get up to 1.3 before that happens, though. | Jun 10 14:07 |
| _Mutex_ | Kcalc's MODE was "this program is no longer working" | Jun 10 14:07 |
| _Mutex_ | Sure I agree, its early, but why ship something if its that bad ? its counterproductive | Jun 10 14:08 |
| _Mutex_ | it turns people away | Jun 10 14:08 |
| splosion | Nah. Just stick a warning message on the download page is all you need. "Are you seriously going to download and use this? rather you than me!" Something like that | Jun 10 14:09 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_ you installed kde 4.3 you say, on windows? no wonder it is unstable :) | Jun 10 14:10 |
| _Mutex_ | I write industrial control software for embedded systems, I cant comprehend releasing code with bugs (engineering errors) in it AT ALL. EVER | Jun 10 14:10 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, the KDE 4.3 FOR WINDOWS Hmm | Jun 10 14:11 |
| _Mutex_ | btw its KDE crashing,, not windows | Jun 10 14:11 |
| Aondo | kde 4.3 isnt even released :) just beta packages | Jun 10 14:11 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry its 4.2.3 | Jun 10 14:11 |
| _Mutex_ | so's firefox just beta you're point ? | Jun 10 14:12 |
| Aondo | ok, but still it is alot more stable on a GNU/Linux system than on windows | Jun 10 14:12 |
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| Aondo | firefox? | Jun 10 14:12 |
| _Mutex_ | considering its totally unstable on windows I can accept that its alot more stable on Linux, has to be, cant be less stable | Jun 10 14:13 |
| Aondo | :) | Jun 10 14:13 |
| Aondo | well you could help the progress ofc, you are free to do so. | Jun 10 14:14 |
| splosion | Doesn't really matter which. Release early and release often. That's the point of open-source software. If there are bugs, they will be found, they will be fixed. You don't have to stay on the bleeding edge all the time with crashes and lock-ups. Install a stable distro such as Debian if it worries you | Jun 10 14:15 |
| _Mutex_ | yes i am, and capable, or I can just find something that works off the bat. its a shame as they seem like quite clean apps, (if they worked) | Jun 10 14:15 |
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| balzac | _Mutex_ has some of his sense of identity vested in proprietary software | Jun 10 14:16 |
| _Mutex_ | its just im from the real school of engineering, like electronics and civil and mechanical engineering, where errors are faults can be a cause of death to someone, you never release anything with known errors, never. | Jun 10 14:16 |
| balzac | software is like clothes | Jun 10 14:16 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: I had this conversation with an engineer | Jun 10 14:17 |
| _Mutex_ | I have some of my identity invested in quality software, proprietary or not. | Jun 10 14:17 |
| splosion | Debian has four levels of stability. Stable, which will never crash at all ever, testing, which never crashed for me, Unstable, which crashes a lot, and Experimental, which crashes so much it's scary. Take your pick. | Jun 10 14:17 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_ does it say that it is considered stable to use kde4 apps on windows? or is it in some sort of beta state? | Jun 10 14:17 |
| splosion | _Mutex_: there's a lot of open-source software used in the air industry. Hell even NASA uses open-source software | Jun 10 14:18 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_ found it my self: "KDE on Windows is not in the final state, so applications can be unsuitable for day to day use yet." | Jun 10 14:18 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, dont think alpha software will be stable | Jun 10 14:19 |
| Aondo | fun to try it out anyways :) | Jun 10 14:19 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, and to then misjudge the other similar softwares, is ludacris | Jun 10 14:19 |
| _Mutex_ | day to day, how about at all | Jun 10 14:19 |
| _Mutex_ | its actually called "KDE 4.2.3 RELEASE" | Jun 10 14:20 |
| splosion | Oh by the way, Debian Unstable and Experiemntal aren't available for general use. You have to go out of your way to actually get hold of them. Shield the public from the scary new code. | Jun 10 14:20 |
| fewa | the NSA developed SELinux, they trust it for top secret documents | Jun 10 14:20 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont know aobut you, but release means well release does it not ? | Jun 10 14:20 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, the windows versions are not released | Jun 10 14:20 |
| balzac | the large hadron collider, the mars rover project, and the NYSE global trading platform all use GNU/Linux | Jun 10 14:21 |
| _Mutex_ | im just saying whats its called, argue all you like | Jun 10 14:21 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, stop trolling | Jun 10 14:21 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, http://windows.kde.org/ "KDE on Windows is not in the final state, so applications can be unsuitable for day to day use yet." | Jun 10 14:21 |
| balzac | I don't think I can find a better editor than emacs | Jun 10 14:22 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_, from what i understand, most kde programmers use linux when coding, and there is some dedicated windows people to port it over. thus making it not as stable at once, with each release. | Jun 10 14:22 |
| _Mutex_ | So, thats great, but so what, mabey if i have to drive a remote car on mars, i might look them up ! | Jun 10 14:22 |
| balzac | or a better irc client than irssi, for that matter | Jun 10 14:22 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, is a troll | Jun 10 14:22 |
| balzac | i'm aware | Jun 10 14:22 |
| splosion | balzac: really? That's such a kitchen sink editor. I always get scared away by all the zillions of things it can do. | Jun 10 14:22 |
| balzac | trolls are people too | Jun 10 14:22 |
| _Mutex_ | why because I have a counter argument that makes you unconfortable ? | Jun 10 14:22 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, try it on linux | Jun 10 14:23 |
| _Mutex_ | why? | Jun 10 14:23 |
| balzac | splosion: it works for me. I'm a web developer, so I like the versatility. | Jun 10 14:23 |
| balzac | lots of elisp files for various purposes, although the nxhtml is pretty rough around the edges | Jun 10 14:23 |
| splosion | http://m.pocket-lint.com/news/news.phtml/24697/microsoft-google-fight-over-bing-wave.phtml | Jun 10 14:24 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_, i guess one reason would be a stable kde, :) | Jun 10 14:24 |
| _Mutex_ | you would hope so. | Jun 10 14:24 |
| *amarsh04 runs Debian unstable, but is still holding back KDE at 3.5.9/3.5.10 | Jun 10 14:24 | |
| fewa | " | Jun 10 14:24 |
| fewa | First was Microsoft's chief software architect, Ray Ozzie, who said that Wave violates the principle that "complexity is the enemy of the web". He said that without open-source, the venture would falter due to its complicated nature. | Jun 10 14:24 |
| fewa | " | Jun 10 14:24 |
| balzac | splosion: I actually like how different it is from what i'm used to because it has a lot of depth | Jun 10 14:25 |
| fewa | LOLOL, yes, impossible without the power of FOSS | Jun 10 14:25 |
| balzac | just yesterday i tried editing an elisp mode which makes emacs have syntax completion functionality like textmate | Jun 10 14:25 |
| splosion | amarsh04: I'd like to give sid another whirl sometime, but "apt-get upgrade" was a command that used to scare me to death for the short time I actually used it | Jun 10 14:25 |
| balzac | it's pretty nifty to edit my elisp file, reload-library, and then use my newly created syntax completion | Jun 10 14:26 |
| fewa | you heard it from the horses mouth, FOSS is better | Jun 10 14:26 |
| amarsh04 | I use aptitude mainly, splosion... it lets me try alternatives, and if I get stuck in it, control-c gets me out without changes to the existing system | Jun 10 14:26 |
| splosion | balzac: I only need simple completions. I only know Python. | Jun 10 14:26 |
| splosion | amarsh04: probably a good idea. | Jun 10 14:27 |
| amarsh04 | work colleague tonight hoped that he works with me again so that I can help him with linux | Jun 10 14:27 |
| Aondo | _Mutex_, is those kde4 programs your first go with foss, except maybe firefox? | Jun 10 14:27 |
| splosion | I'll be moving to Squeeze as soon as I get another hard-disk. I'll set up a small partiton for messing around with other distros. | Jun 10 14:27 |
| _Mutex_ | no not by a long long way | Jun 10 14:27 |
| _Mutex_ | ive been using Linux insice 1995 | Jun 10 14:27 |
| Aondo | ok i just had that impression :P | Jun 10 14:27 |
| Aondo | ok | Jun 10 14:27 |
| amarsh04 | new hard disks are cheap these days | Jun 10 14:27 |
| _Mutex_ | RH 7.2 I think aobut that time. | Jun 10 14:28 |
| fewa | then just install kde on linux will ya ! | Jun 10 14:28 |
| _Mutex_ | never going to play that stupid dual boot game again, | Jun 10 14:28 |
| amarsh04 | I had to partition my new hard disk into a 1024 cylinder / 8 GiB /boot partition due to having an old pc with bios limitations | Jun 10 14:28 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, have you heard of virtualization? | Jun 10 14:29 |
| balzac | dude, try virtualization | Jun 10 14:29 |
| balzac | sheesh | Jun 10 14:29 |
| _Mutex_ | I would really love to want to try that | Jun 10 14:29 |
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| oiaohm | Does not really matter windows 7 does not run a lot of old games. | Jun 10 14:29 |
| amarsh04 | I dual boot to win95 osr2.1 which is on an 11 year old scsi disk... still have my Fidonet software on it | Jun 10 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Turns out wine project is commonly bugged to port to windows due to it having more compadiblity with old applications than windows. | Jun 10 14:30 |
| balzac | that's amusing | Jun 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Its a sad fact. | Jun 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | The project gets about 4 requests a month for it. | Jun 10 14:31 |
| splosion | Virtualization is great. Proof: http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4594/screenshotvxp.png | Jun 10 14:31 |
| balzac | more ironic than sad | Jun 10 14:31 |
| _Mutex_ | just as linux regressions break Linux apps on old builds as well !! everyone has backwards compatibility issues | Jun 10 14:31 |
| oiaohm | That is a myth _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:31 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, when has lib6 broken? | Jun 10 14:31 |
| _Mutex_ | no its not !! LOL | Jun 10 14:32 |
| fewa | *libc6? | Jun 10 14:32 |
| oiaohm | I know because I run 6 different distributions on 1 kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Its a pure myth. | Jun 10 14:32 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, when have the X11 protocol changed? | Jun 10 14:32 |
| _Mutex_ | are any of them distros old ? i bet not, | Jun 10 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Only pain in but is only been able to run 1 X11 distribution. | Jun 10 14:32 |
| balzac | *nix has a more venerable and stable legacy than windows | Jun 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | One is redhat 7.2 by the way _Mutex_ just for warpness. | Jun 10 14:33 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: get serious man. Windows is the least powerful OS available. | Jun 10 14:33 |
| splosion | Perhaps you mean attempting to install modern Linux apps on Linux from ten years ago? then yes of course it's going to end badly. What did you expect? | Jun 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Its the only box set of redhat I have. | Jun 10 14:33 |
| _Mutex_ | powerful OS, WTF, what do you mean powerfull ? | Jun 10 14:33 |
| _Mutex_ | Mine was the box set too. | Jun 10 14:34 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, your puny | Jun 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Linux apps from 10 years ago work. | Jun 10 14:34 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, picking on spelling mistakes | Jun 10 14:34 |
| amarsh04 | _Mutex_ Linus and Linux went with full sycall backward compatibility, but where kernel had to be available as source to enable modification | Jun 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | As long as you install a distribution from 10 years ago on top of current day kernel. | Jun 10 14:34 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: you cannot imagine the POWAH of GNU software. | Jun 10 14:34 |
| _Mutex_ | so your saying a build for kernel 2.4 will work on 2.6 kernel with no modification or recompiling or dependencies ? | Jun 10 14:35 |
| amarsh04 | libc compatibility is pretty good, there have been some changes but for generally very good reasons | Jun 10 14:35 |
| fewa | lib5, lib6 | Jun 10 14:35 |
| fewa | and you can have both installed at the same time | Jun 10 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Most things don't talk straight to 2.4 or 2.6 kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Most talk to libc then to kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:35 |
| splosion | _Mutex_: why is that even a problem? The only reason you'd ever run a 2.4 kernel nowadays is if you had some seriously outdated hardware. Hardware which Windows hasn't supported for years, either | Jun 10 14:36 |
| amarsh04 | If you want to know more about libc, buy the bood "the standard C library" by PJ Plaugher | Jun 10 14:36 |
| amarsh04 | s/bood/book/ | Jun 10 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Debian by the way can still be order to use a 2.4 kernel. | Jun 10 14:36 |
| amarsh04 | s/Plaugher/Plauger/ | Jun 10 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Most of the upperlevels of Linux have no real linkage to the kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:37 |
| oiaohm | That is why the binary incompadible is a myth. | Jun 10 14:37 |
| oiaohm | Its a dependancy problem nothing more. | Jun 10 14:37 |
| fewa | its windows thats a speggitti bunch of crap | Jun 10 14:37 |
| _Mutex_ | the dependencies are different between versions of the kernel, and there is alot of complaints in teh FOSS community about regressions breaking apps. | Jun 10 14:37 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, {{who?}} | Jun 10 14:37 |
| oiaohm | That is upper level _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:37 |
| amarsh04 | that's a good reason to use Debian, _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Not kernel level. | Jun 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel level is very stable. | Jun 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | I know from using openvz to run many different distributions across many ages. | Jun 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | On 1 kernel. | Jun 10 14:38 |
| _Mutex_ | stability is not the issue here, its backwards compatibility and the lack of it over Linux versions. | Jun 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | I would not be able to do that if there was a binary incompadibly problem at kernel level. | Jun 10 14:39 |
| balzac | who else is beginning to pity _Mutex_ ? | Jun 10 14:39 |
| _Mutex_ | and WHO? LKML and Torvalds have addressed the dependency issue many times | Jun 10 14:39 |
| amarsh04 | I was first sold on Debian when I could upgrade glibc without a reboot | Jun 10 14:39 |
| balzac | can you imagine spending all those hours working in windows? | Jun 10 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Linux tradition solution to dependnacy problems is the chroot _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:39 |
| _Mutex_ | I never spend ANY time "working in window". | Jun 10 14:39 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, yeah, stability doesnt mater to Windows, your right | Jun 10 14:39 |
| _Mutex_ | I use applications, | Jun 10 14:39 |
| balzac | and the poor chap was in no hurry to admit using windows | Jun 10 14:39 |
| _Mutex_ | Im a big boy now !! | Jun 10 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Issue with Linux has been it limitation that you can only run 1 X11 server at a time. | Jun 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | That will disappear so allowing what we have been doing server side for ages to be done desktop side. | Jun 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Ok we need a old distribution applicaiton no problem install the old distribution contained. | Jun 10 14:40 |
| _Mutex_ | I let my operating systme do well , what OS's do, perform as a layer between my app and my hardware, what OS ?? who the F*^* cares !! | Jun 10 14:40 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, you have only changed the subject because you were wrong | Jun 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | It does it for server users _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:41 |
| fewa | and you know it | Jun 10 14:41 |
| amarsh04 | GNU/Linux became usable in a home/multi pc and os environment when samba was able to share file and print services to WinXX machines | Jun 10 14:41 |
| amarsh04 | that was quite a few years ago | Jun 10 14:41 |
| _Mutex_ | wrong about what ,, what an OS does ? | Jun 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Debian also support installing from multiable branches as well. | Jun 10 14:41 |
| balzac | _Mutex_: if you're that specialized that you don't care, that's fine for you. | Jun 10 14:41 |
| _Mutex_ | sure is | Jun 10 14:41 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, so spread your shit somewhere else | Jun 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Just it lacks good interfaces. | Jun 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | for normal users to know how to use it. | Jun 10 14:42 |
| balzac | but i can't be troubled by proprietary software. it's not good enough for me. | Jun 10 14:42 |
| _Mutex_ | its not specialized its not caring, OS is not something I should care aobut, but its something my apps need to operate on top of. | Jun 10 14:42 |
| balzac | fewa: i don't think it's bad to have disagreement here | Jun 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Ie apt-get -t testing <package> on stable is a little above the normal user to install newer version of package. | Jun 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Or apt-get -t olderversion <package> is also above normal users. | Jun 10 14:43 |
| fewa | balzac, yeah, its not a totally non-productive conversation | Jun 10 14:43 |
| _Mutex_ | OS is but one layer of software, and it should be working but unseen, | Jun 10 14:43 |
| balzac | _Mutex_ doesn't seem to have a problem with getting along, though he is ornery and wilfully obtuse | Jun 10 14:43 |
| balzac | non-productive is ok in my opinion | Jun 10 14:43 |
| oiaohm | As it can _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:43 |
| oiaohm | Issue is not the Linux's means to do it. | Jun 10 14:43 |
| balzac | it's good for BN in my opinion, to have better advocates for proprietary software | Jun 10 14:44 |
| _Mutex_ | LOL, OBTUSE who are you calling obtuse, i hope you've been watching the shawshank redenption !! | Jun 10 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Its Linux not give users tools to do it simple _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:44 |
| balzac | nope, haven't seen it | Jun 10 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Basically the binary incompadiblity myth is just that a myth. | Jun 10 14:44 |
| _Mutex_ | More the point an advocate for quality software, regardless of its origin. | Jun 10 14:44 |
| oiaohm | There are many ways around the problems. | Jun 10 14:44 |
| amarsh04 | for example, new printers are not supported in old versions of Windows... on GNU/Linux, samba and cups can make these printers accessible to ancient windows machines as postscript printers | Jun 10 14:44 |
| MinceR | 155527 < oiaohm> Linux tradition solution to dependnacy problems is the chroot _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:45 |
| _Mutex_ | So they have never changed the Linux ABI's | Jun 10 14:45 |
| oiaohm | It is just a interface issue _Mutex_. Network admins who know there command line well. | Jun 10 14:45 |
| MinceR | is that better than fiddling with LD_LIBRARY_PATH? | Jun 10 14:45 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: usermode ABI never changes | Jun 10 14:45 |
| oiaohm | If it does its altered back in the next versions. | Jun 10 14:45 |
| _Mutex_ | really, not what I heard but ok | Jun 10 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Kernel driver ABI changes all the time. | Jun 10 14:45 |
| oiaohm | They are two different ABI's. | Jun 10 14:45 |
| amarsh04 | anyone can run into bugs, but I never had DOS or Windows bugs fixed as a result of problem reports that I submitted. However, I've had GRUB/Linux/application bugs fixed as a result of my bug reports | Jun 10 14:46 |
| _Mutex_ | hmm, so if you have to interface with the Kernel you can have a problem, not that you should because apps should be userland ABI's I agree | Jun 10 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Driver makers complain about Linux driver ABI changing. | Jun 10 14:46 |
| balzac | amarsh04: no kidding | Jun 10 14:46 |
| oiaohm | interface inside the kernel. | Jun 10 14:46 |
| oiaohm | You can design something kernel space using all userspace ABI. | Jun 10 14:47 |
| oiaohm | and that will not break with version changes. | Jun 10 14:47 |
| _Mutex_ | in that case the driver issue would be far better if they fixed the kernel ABI, so driver developers can have a fixed target to hit ! | Jun 10 14:47 |
| oiaohm | Basically if you want to interface with Linux internal API prepair to scream. | Jun 10 14:47 |
| oiaohm | Linux does have full usermode driver support _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:48 |
| _Mutex_ | thats the issue thats causing the stir i gues | Jun 10 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Its a mixture. | Jun 10 14:48 |
| amarsh04 | syscall interface retains backward compatibility | Jun 10 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Between tricky interfaces to setup multi distributions side by side or enable backwards compadilbiy in distributions and the driver issue. | Jun 10 14:48 |
| amarsh04 | drivers need to be in source code so that they can adapt to new kernel interfaces | Jun 10 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Lot of people give up on the backwards compadibly and call it impossable when it not either. | Jun 10 14:49 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, the source interface is much better, a kernel ABI would enable more proprietary drivers, and more unneccicary complexity | Jun 10 14:49 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, since drivers run with kernel priviliages a closed source driver can do anything, and you dont know what it is doing | Jun 10 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Closed source kernel level abi also remove the means to fully secuirty audit the kernel. | Jun 10 14:49 |
| amarsh04 | as I've said several times, once scsi driver was broken for me. Within 11 hours of me posting the bug on the linux-scsi mailing list I had received a patch that fixed the problem | Jun 10 14:49 |
| amarsh04 | s/once/one/ | Jun 10 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Basically there is nothing good about closed source kernel level drivers. | Jun 10 14:50 |
| _Mutex_ | that brings up the problem that some driver (hardware companies) dont want to provide source code for their hardware because often that shows how the device was designed | Jun 10 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Other than a companies means to keep secrects. | Jun 10 14:50 |
| _Mutex_ | not much bad about them either | Jun 10 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Funny enough there are a set of web cams for windows 400 drivers. Open source only 1 driver. | Jun 10 14:51 |
| amarsh04 | broken by Design, Mutex | Jun 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | What way would you want it from a secuirty point of view for numbers of coder errors _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Basically each company was not aware that the other companies were using exactly the same chipset. | Jun 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | So had different id's so required different drivers under windows. | Jun 10 14:51 |
| _Mutex_ | please explain who anyone, can create a "broken by design" product ?? its beyond me | Jun 10 14:52 |
| amarsh04 | also, think of the realtek 8139 drivers... 1 or 2 drivers for linux, I had trouble finding a driver out of several available for win95 that worked with the card I had | Jun 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | Closed source causes lack of taking between hardware makers. | Jun 10 14:52 |
| _Mutex_ | Lets set a spec for this software " sure the spec is BROKEN" sure right | Jun 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | So leading to way more code created. | Jun 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | More code equals higher risk of bugs. | Jun 10 14:52 |
| _Mutex_ | FOSS complaining about way more code created, how many distro's are there now ?? | Jun 10 14:53 |
| amarsh04 | broken by design meaning "we have to know how it works to make it work with an operating system, but we won't tell anyone else how it works so that they can make it work with another operating system" | Jun 10 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Distributions are more a historic mistake we cannot work out how to destory _Mutex_ | Jun 10 14:53 |
| _Mutex_ | amarsh04 just how does that explain "broken by design" or is that a little bit of FOSS FUD ? | Jun 10 14:54 |
| amarsh04 | under closed source at&t unix one couldn't write a new filesystem without an at&t source code licence | Jun 10 14:54 |
| _Mutex_ | or is it just something that sounds good ? | Jun 10 14:54 |
| _Mutex_ | so | Jun 10 14:54 |
| amarsh04 | broken by design meaning a secret interface | Jun 10 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Early on someone had the bright idea of "survial of the fittest" would sort the distribution mess out in time. | Jun 10 14:54 |
| _Mutex_ | I cant drive my car without some sort of drivers license !! | Jun 10 14:54 |
| _Mutex_ | go figure | Jun 10 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Kinda did not happen. | Jun 10 14:55 |
| oiaohm | So now we have LSB and other project trying to work out some way in hell of clean up the mess. | Jun 10 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Most open source people call the distribution mess a bad thing. | Jun 10 14:55 |
| _Mutex_ | and i would agree with them | Jun 10 14:55 |
| oiaohm | If you can create a cure that works lot of open source people would love you. | Jun 10 14:56 |
| oiaohm | We don't need to create another one at kernel level by allowing binary drivers. | Jun 10 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Its a big enough nightmare with the distribution headache. | Jun 10 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Its a normal mistake to think open source world condons code duplicaiton. Distributions like Fedora have a strict upstreaming policy so they don't have code duplicaiton. | Jun 10 14:58 |
| oiaohm | It is one of the things people can press distributions for to reduce some of the distribution incompadiblity problems. | Jun 10 14:59 |
| amarsh04 | I see far more shared code at the application level (e.g. libraries) in linux than in windows | Jun 10 15:00 |
| _Mutex_ | hows my newest idol efforts http://sarah.thesharps.us/ | Jun 10 15:00 |
| _Mutex_ | I still think its more about quality than sharing, but RMS does not agree with me, he thinks freedom trumps quality, ,, I dont | Jun 10 15:01 |
| oiaohm | If rules of upstreaming are followed secuirty bug numbers in open source are very low. | Jun 10 15:02 |
| amarsh04 | If the code is shared, a sufficiently able/motivated person or group of people can improve it | Jun 10 15:02 |
| oiaohm | Freedom has many other important factors. | Jun 10 15:02 |
| splosion | There are plenty of distros. But really, suvival of the fittest has mostly been true. Most of the best ones have bubbled up to the top. Having the more obscure distros around for those that want them isn't so bad | Jun 10 15:03 |
| oiaohm | Like when vendors go out of busness you are not completely stuffed getting your data if you have the source code. | Jun 10 15:03 |
| _Mutex_ | torvalds clearly stated that he was not goign to bring attention to security bugs, and "hide" them, (or you'll be a mastibating monkey) | Jun 10 15:03 |
| amarsh04 | and many are derivatives, like realtime/multimedia geared distros based on debian/ubuntu | Jun 10 15:03 |
| oiaohm | There have been code audits performed over open source by us goverment and all producing adverage bug numbers. | Jun 10 15:04 |
| _Mutex_ | they are all derivatives | Jun 10 15:04 |
| oiaohm | They also could do that over windows source code. | Jun 10 15:04 |
| _Mutex_ | and they do !! | Jun 10 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Guess what on adverage the bug numbers are lower in the open source. | Jun 10 15:04 |
| amarsh04 | fixes flow between distributions pretty freely | Jun 10 15:04 |
| splosion | amarsh04: the number of posts you see on UF where people actually suggest getting rid of Ubuntu and installing Mint JUST so that codecs work out of the box is insane. It really makes me shake my head in disgust, sometimes | Jun 10 15:05 |
| _Mutex_ | which is why windows (and SOME linux ) are AEL4 rated | Jun 10 15:05 |
| oiaohm | Linux is currently rated above windows. | Jun 10 15:05 |
| _Mutex_ | um, no its not | Jun 10 15:05 |
| oiaohm | For approved distributions. | Jun 10 15:05 |
| _Mutex_ | they are both the same | Jun 10 15:05 |
| oiaohm | windows is not rated to have mixed classificaiton storage. | Jun 10 15:05 |
| _Mutex_ | infact most linux distro's dont make it, its only fedore 9 and a few others | Jun 10 15:05 |
| oiaohm | Neither does the home provided versions of windows _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:06 |
| amarsh04 | splosion, I run vanilla debian plus www.debian-multimedia.org and kernel-archive.buildserver.net - if a free codec appears I can use it instead of a proprietary codec... if flash does something horrible I can use gnash... | Jun 10 15:06 |
| oiaohm | They need to be altered before they get up to rating _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:06 |
| amarsh04 | I still know what is free, what is not, and can decide to use or not use the software | Jun 10 15:07 |
| _Mutex_ | im sure they do, but on those grounds based on the US govmt Linux is not better security rated than windows xp !! | Jun 10 15:07 |
| _Mutex_ | thems are teh facts | Jun 10 15:07 |
| amarsh04 | the debian-multimedia person has worked towards making software fit for inclusion in debian as free software | Jun 10 15:08 |
| oiaohm | You can at least buy distributions of Linux with the same rating the US gov uses. | Jun 10 15:08 |
| oiaohm | You cannot buy copies of windows with the same rating _Mutex_. | Jun 10 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | as you can with windows too | Jun 10 15:08 |
| oiaohm | Nop | Jun 10 15:08 |
| _Mutex_ | yes you can,, sorry | Jun 10 15:08 |
| oiaohm | The alteration kit is not for sale. | Jun 10 15:09 |
| amarsh04 | even with network connectivity, _Mutex_ ? | Jun 10 15:09 |
| splosion | cool | Jun 10 15:09 |
| _Mutex_ | excuse me, im talking about the AEL rating from teh US Government, Windows XP HAS IT, as does fedore 9 to AEL4 level. | Jun 10 15:09 |
| oiaohm | There is a reason why NSA has a signing key to install parts into windows kernel mode. | Jun 10 15:09 |
| _Mutex_ | EXACTLY THE SAME AS SOME LINUX | Jun 10 15:09 |
| _Mutex_ | soem not all | Jun 10 15:09 |
| oiaohm | XP gets it after NSA modules are installed. | Jun 10 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Not out box. | Jun 10 15:10 |
| _Mutex_ | and you would really know that right, | Jun 10 15:10 |
| _Mutex_ | ever worked on any NSA equipment ?? i have lots | Jun 10 15:10 |
| oiaohm | I know what they are patching. | Jun 10 15:10 |
| _Mutex_ | its really cool being issued pistols to more equipment around !!! | Jun 10 15:10 |
| _Mutex_ | more = move | Jun 10 15:11 |
| oiaohm | There are a set of back doors that have to be shut. | Jun 10 15:11 |
| _Mutex_ | sure there are :) | Jun 10 15:11 |
| oiaohm | Or you can go from guest account to full control of system. | Jun 10 15:11 |
| _Mutex_ | and russians under your bed too | Jun 10 15:11 |
| oiaohm | Only way to patch some of them are kernel mode alterations. | Jun 10 15:11 |
| amarsh04 | I'd rather use QNX for mission-critical applications than any flavour of ms-windows | Jun 10 15:12 |
| oiaohm | Without them patched XP fails AEL rating. | Jun 10 15:12 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, you can audit Linux, you cant audit windows | Jun 10 15:12 |
| fewa | thats not paranoia, thats common sense | Jun 10 15:12 |
| _Mutex_ | fact is XP IS on the list, say what you like its there, end of story really | Jun 10 15:12 |
| oiaohm | On list patched. | Jun 10 15:13 |
| oiaohm | No on list unpatched. | Jun 10 15:13 |
| _Mutex_ | you can audit Windows, we'll YOU cant, the US govnt CAN and has and does | Jun 10 15:13 |
| oiaohm | RHEL is on list unpatched. | Jun 10 15:13 |
| oiaohm | There is a big difference. | Jun 10 15:13 |
| oiaohm | If you are setting up a secure network non usa goverment you need to know the difference so people don't tell you that XP is the same when its not. | Jun 10 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Incorrect _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:14 |
| amarsh04 | some process control applications actually run on bare hardware e.g. aircraft control for the laser airborne depth sounder... the source code *and* binaries are heavily audited to prevent the code from causing the aircraft to crash | Jun 10 15:14 |
| _Mutex_ | I acutally think your not really knowing what your talking about | Jun 10 15:14 |
| oiaohm | I could audit Windows source code if I wanted to. | Jun 10 15:15 |
| oiaohm | I would have to sign a NDA. | Jun 10 15:15 |
| oiaohm | Its really not that hard to get your hands on Windows source code _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:15 |
| _Mutex_ | well thanks for answering your own question, ofcourse you can, but you state that YOU can but the US Government cannot ? | Jun 10 15:15 |
| _Mutex_ | I know I have it | Jun 10 15:16 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive seen it and studied it | Jun 10 15:16 |
| oiaohm | But you cannot rebuild it and use it. | Jun 10 15:16 |
| _Mutex_ | I know that too | Jun 10 15:16 |
| oiaohm | So you cannot repair it. | Jun 10 15:16 |
| _Mutex_ | Again, I know | Jun 10 15:16 |
| splosion | I'm amazed nobody has uploaded the Windows source code to Usenet. What gives? | Jun 10 15:17 |
| _Mutex_ | are you then telling me you are capable of finding and fixing a bug in the 11 million lines of code that is linux ? | Jun 10 15:17 |
| _Mutex_ | I got it off torrent | Jun 10 15:17 |
| oiaohm | The torrent is in fact incomplete. | Jun 10 15:18 |
| _Mutex_ | and like it or not, its clean, well written, well documentated | Jun 10 15:18 |
| _Mutex_ | how do you know what torrent I got oiamohm ? | Jun 10 15:18 |
| splosion | http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3497574/Windows_2000_source_code "about 15%". Oh well | Jun 10 15:18 |
| amarsh04 | I would not want to audit code of that size... maybe floppy sized like the QNX demo disk or Tom's boot flppy | Jun 10 15:19 |
| _Mutex_ | I actually got it from multiple sources, and I also have the NT source code. | Jun 10 15:19 |
| oiaohm | There have been no full source codes of windows ever released by torrent. | Jun 10 15:19 |
| amarsh04 | floppy even | Jun 10 15:19 |
| _Mutex_ | I know its not complete, I also know it was released to the web by an insecure Linux box !!!! go figure | Jun 10 15:19 |
| oiaohm | Also I have audited through the Linux kernel before _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:20 |
| _Mutex_ | how big was it then ??? 5 million lines | Jun 10 15:20 |
| _Mutex_ | so divide your live up by 5 million and how long for each line do you have to spend studying, | Jun 10 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Currently working threw 2.6.30 by the way. | Jun 10 15:21 |
| oiaohm | This is what defect hunter programs are for. | Jun 10 15:21 |
| _Mutex_ | not that viewing code very often shows bugs, testing is far more effective as is code reviews and so on. | Jun 10 15:21 |
| _Mutex_ | quality assurance and correct engineering. | Jun 10 15:21 |
| _Mutex_ | like LINT sure | Jun 10 15:21 |
| amarsh04 | Novell even had enough trouble debugging a problem in the 3c509 ethernet card driver... remember that National Semiconductor were cautious to certify their own NS16550DN UART chips let alone a cpu or system | Jun 10 15:22 |
| _Mutex_ | lint wont find functional errors, nor will your compiler | Jun 10 15:22 |
| splosion | Hrmm. The full size of the uncompressed source is over 50gb. yowzer | Jun 10 15:22 |
| oiaohm | lint is very primitive. | Jun 10 15:22 |
| _Mutex_ | nor will viewing the code | Jun 10 15:22 |
| _Mutex_ | yes it is | Jun 10 15:22 |
| oiaohm | There are fare better tools out there. | Jun 10 15:22 |
| *mib_5gcjjy has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Jun 10 15:23 | |
| _Mutex_ | yes there are, and infinately better than "viewing " the code, the Many eyes thing does not work. | Jun 10 15:23 |
| splosion | http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/15/71552/7795 hahahaa | Jun 10 15:23 |
| amarsh04 | 80386 and above cpu's are too complex to certify... aerospace used the protected mode only intel 80376 | Jun 10 15:24 |
| _Mutex_ | 80386 too complicated to certify ,, Hmmm you know they have computers for that these days !! :) | Jun 10 15:25 |
| oiaohm | High auditablity of who added what to the source code is also important _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:25 |
| oiaohm | So when 1 defect turns up you can check that coders releated works. | Jun 10 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Something Linux kernel is good at. | Jun 10 15:26 |
| _Mutex_ | quality assurance and software reviews are far more importand, as is all normal engineering standards. | Jun 10 15:27 |
| amarsh04 | yes Mutex, you need a cpu that only runs in one mode rather than switch between modes in strange and wondrous ways, and doesn't carry baggage like LOADALL and COMPXG whatever it was instructions | Jun 10 15:27 |
| _Mutex_ | So why is it then that you see "products" like Ubuntu shipping with over 25,000 known bugs. (bugs = engineering failures, noob errors, lazy coders) | Jun 10 15:27 |
| amarsh04 | and knowlege of what has gone wrong in the past and why... eg Mariner 1, Arianne V, y2k bugs in linkers... | Jun 10 15:28 |
| _Mutex_ | thing about computers is, they do the same things all the time, that includes switching between protected and user states, | Jun 10 15:29 |
| amarsh04 | Unix V7 was one of the last "all known bugs fixed" version of a Unix-like OS | Jun 10 15:29 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, Microsoft hides bugs in Windows | Jun 10 15:29 |
| _Mutex_ | most well known software desarters are due to not following normal engineering and QA standards, | Jun 10 15:29 |
| amarsh04 | I don't mean between user mode and kernel mode, I mean you don't want a mission critical cpu changing between real and protected mode all the time using a keyboard controller | Jun 10 15:30 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont care what windows does, you know know about 25,000 bugs (faults) in a product you design and build and release it in that state. | Jun 10 15:30 |
| _Mutex_ | you just dont | Jun 10 15:30 |
| oiaohm | This is why selection of Linux distributions is important. General Linux kernel funny enough does most of the QA. | Jun 10 15:31 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu includes unstable crap like pulseaudio that don't help there bug numbers either. | Jun 10 15:31 |
| splosion | "strings c:\windows\system32\ftp.exe" Aww. I didn't know about that. | Jun 10 15:31 |
| splosion | oiaohm: I had to do some serious hacking about to get my pulseaudio to work on 9.04 | Jun 10 15:32 |
| fewa | I just switched it to ALSA | Jun 10 15:32 |
| oiaohm | Just like MS cut protections of direct X buffers in XP just to be flashy. | Jun 10 15:32 |
| fewa | same thing I did for intrepid | Jun 10 15:32 |
| fewa | while audio didnt work at all in vista | Jun 10 15:32 |
| oiaohm | Number old applications for windows that don't work in vista has to be fairly close to 25000 through any means. | Jun 10 15:33 |
| *amarsh04 runs alsa 1.0.20 with a sb live!5.1 sound card (not supported in windows later than win98se but works great in linux) | Jun 10 15:33 | |
| oiaohm | Bar virtualisation. | Jun 10 15:33 |
| fewa | amarsh04, i have the same sound card | Jun 10 15:34 |
| _Mutex_ | ive not found a single app that Ive used with XP that does not work on Vista or Win 7 and i have some really old crap | Jun 10 15:34 |
| _Mutex_ | but it all works | Jun 10 15:35 |
| oiaohm | Hack there over 4 thousand open bugs in wine. | Jun 10 15:35 |
| fewa | its a great sound card too | Jun 10 15:35 |
| amarsh04 | mine is model sb 0220 fewa, but even then there are different variants | Jun 10 15:35 |
| oiaohm | Question is how many of those bugs are important _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:35 |
| _Mutex_ | every single one of them are | Jun 10 15:35 |
| amarsh04 | love the wavetable synth for playing midi on a slow pc, good sound in and sound out also | Jun 10 15:35 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: luck. | Jun 10 15:36 |
| splosion | I'm pretty sure Microsoft would rather not keep any backwards compatibility between versions at all. It probably holds them back some. | Jun 10 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Wine testsuite shows many major abi differences between XP and ViSTA. | Jun 10 15:36 |
| _Mutex_ | so if i was INTEL and i had to create a CPU with 11 million components in it, I would be allowed to design that product with 25,000 faults on it ? I dont think so | Jun 10 15:36 |
| oiaohm | And there are a stack of application that fail. | Jun 10 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Due to those differences. | Jun 10 15:36 |
| _Mutex_ | I would expect I would be out of a job quickly if I tried that | Jun 10 15:37 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, intel has released chips that cant do floating point | Jun 10 15:37 |
| fewa | into mass production | Jun 10 15:37 |
| splosion | and don't forget that failure rates for microchip production are enormous | Jun 10 15:37 |
| oiaohm | intel allows microcode patching for a reason _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:37 |
| oiaohm | Because they have screwed up quite a few times. | Jun 10 15:38 |
| _Mutex_ | So they have ONE error that occures only in very special condition, they offer free replacement to ANYONE who can show they are affected by the fault and they re-jig their plant at great expense !! | Jun 10 15:38 |
| oiaohm | You load a repair microcode by by problem. | Jun 10 15:38 |
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| amarsh04 | it took quite a while before intel offered free replacement for faulty pentiums | Jun 10 15:38 |
| fewa | and it cost them alot of money to do it | Jun 10 15:38 |
| DaemonFC | the ones with the math rounding error? | Jun 10 15:38 |
| DaemonFC | I has one of those | Jun 10 15:39 |
| _Mutex_ | Increasing microcode, reduces throughput, reduces MIPS specs and lowers your competition in the market | Jun 10 15:39 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, its a collectors item :P | Jun 10 15:39 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: number is about 2000 know intel defects. | Jun 10 15:39 |
| DaemonFC | 9 updates available | Jun 10 15:39 |
| oiaohm | rounding error is not the only 1. | Jun 10 15:39 |
| amarsh04 | usual response to hardware problems is to say that the problem is an unsupported feature | Jun 10 15:39 |
| oiaohm | There have been memory management errors. | Jun 10 15:39 |
| _Mutex_ | thats right they took responsibility for the ONE error and FIXED it, they did not SHIP a product with thousands of errors that "we'll get to someday" | Jun 10 15:39 |
| oiaohm | Give some intel processes more than 16 gb of ram. | Jun 10 15:40 |
| oiaohm | Without microcode patch pray. | Jun 10 15:40 |
| _Mutex_ | and Ubuntu has nearly 30,000 and it can be fixed MUCH easier than something locked in silicon ! | Jun 10 15:40 |
| DaemonFC | malicious software removal tool, Media Center bug fix, ActiveX killbits update, 3 security updates, and a cululative security update for MSIE 8 | Jun 10 15:40 |
| amarsh04 | if you want to gain an insight into hardware design difficulty _Mutex_, read the opengraphics mailing list archives | Jun 10 15:40 |
| oiaohm | system will not stay running long once you enable OS using the full memory space. | Jun 10 15:40 |
| splosion | err, you appear to have mixed up hardware and software in your troll attempt, tharr | Jun 10 15:40 |
| DaemonFC | This security update resolves seven privately reported vulnerabilities and one publicly disclosed vulnerability in Internet Explorer. The more severe of the vulnerabilities could allow remote code execution if a user views a specially crafted Web page using Internet Explorer. Users whose accounts are configured to have fewer user rights on the system could be less impacted than users who operate with administrative user rights. | Jun 10 15:41 |
| DaemonFC | This security update is rated Critical for Internet Explorer 5.01 and Important for Internet Explorer 6 Service Pack 1, running on supported editions of Microsoft Windows 2000; Critical for Internet Explorer 6, Internet Explorer 7, and Internet Explorer 8 running on supported editions of Windows XP and Windows Vista; and Moderate for Internet Explorer 6, Internet Explorer 7, and Internet Explorer 8 running on supported editions | Jun 10 15:41 |
| DaemonFC | of Windows Server 2003 and Windows Server 2008. For more information, see the subsection, Affected and Non-Affected Software, in this section. | Jun 10 15:41 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive spent my life doing hardware and software design and engineering, I KNOW whats involved | Jun 10 15:41 |
| DaemonFC | boy if I had a nickel.... | Jun 10 15:41 |
| oiaohm | On a per line of code base intel processes and Ubuntu. Ubuntu would be still less bugs _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:41 |
| _Mutex_ | IE 5.1, you still in the stone age ?? | Jun 10 15:41 |
| DaemonFC | no, it's saying that some of the vulnerabilities exist in IE 5.01 THROUGH IE 8 | Jun 10 15:42 |
| oiaohm | You are aware intel processes are risc inside and use a software x86 instruction converter. | Jun 10 15:42 |
| splosion | it just seems a pointless endeavour to compare bugs in hardware with bugs in software. You can't download a fucking processor | Jun 10 15:42 |
| amarsh04 | _Mutex_ you should volunteer at a university to tutor some ee/comsci students in the basics | Jun 10 15:42 |
| _Mutex_ | oiaohm, I dont think they would have more than 26,000 bugs in silicon, and still have a working product. | Jun 10 15:42 |
| oiaohm | I said lines of code. | Jun 10 15:43 |
| amarsh04 | my father-in-law did that and he *was* a rocket scientist | Jun 10 15:43 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu has a way large line of code than the translation engine in a intel processor _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:43 |
| _Mutex_ | I teach communications theory, mainly radio and telecommunications systems. | Jun 10 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | http://support.microsoft.com/kb/967632 | Jun 10 15:43 |
| _Mutex_ | oimohm your point is ? | Jun 10 15:43 |
| DaemonFC | bunch of Windows Medi9a center bug fixes | Jun 10 15:44 |
| DaemonFC | *Media | Jun 10 15:44 |
| splosion | _Mutex_: that's dandy. I am a radio operator. | Jun 10 15:44 |
| oiaohm | When you level the numbers on lines of code intel can really only have 1 bug every 10 years to be equal and intel is way ahead of that _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:44 |
| _Mutex_ | does not matter how many lines of code, 1 or a million, bugs are engineering flaws, errors, mistakes, poor engineering, poor testing, poor QA you name it, | Jun 10 15:44 |
| amarsh04 | I wasted a lot of money on modems and telephone bills until telstra upgraded their echo cancellors to g.165 compliant units _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:44 |
| oiaohm | Ie in the losing direction. | Jun 10 15:44 |
| oiaohm | Size of code base is a factor to number of bugs _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:45 |
| _Mutex_ | You cant do that in silicon and get away with it, you cant do that in hardware and get away with it, nor should you be able to get away with it in software. | Jun 10 15:45 |
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| _Mutex_ | It should not be. | Jun 10 15:45 |
| oiaohm | Sorry to say the silcon in simpler than the OS running on it. | Jun 10 15:46 |
| splosion | DaemonFC: This security update is rated critical for your CD-recording applications. Without this update, all files you create using CD-ripping software will contain malicious viruses that will destroy your computer. Sorry. | Jun 10 15:46 |
| _Mutex_ | If you allowed a pilot to make x number of errors per 1000 would you mind if that error is when your landing and he forgets the put the brakes on ? | Jun 10 15:46 |
| _Mutex_ | how many errors would you tolerate from a pilot ? | Jun 10 15:46 |
| oiaohm | How many cpus are perfect? | Jun 10 15:46 |
| DaemonFC | I just think it's funny that IE 7 and 8 have so many security problems, but Microsoft only ever rates them "Moderate" | Jun 10 15:46 |
| _Mutex_ | or a civil engineer building a skyscraper ? | Jun 10 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Answer none _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:47 |
| DaemonFC | on Vista anyway | Jun 10 15:47 |
| _Mutex_ | Correct | Jun 10 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Each one has a production defect in there somewhere. | Jun 10 15:47 |
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| DaemonFC | god damn it | Jun 10 15:47 |
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| oiaohm | this is why your argument is point less. No building is perfect either. | Jun 10 15:47 |
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| DaemonFC | ahem | Jun 10 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Control of inperfection is all you can hope for _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:48 |
| DaemonFC | we're all fine here, everythings OK, just a slight weapons malfunction | Jun 10 15:48 |
| _Mutex_ | its not, but im sure it does not contain x number of design faults that would send it crashing to the ground. | Jun 10 15:48 |
| DaemonFC | reactor leak, very dangerous...... | Jun 10 15:48 |
| DaemonFC | give us a minute to lock it down :P | Jun 10 15:48 |
| DaemonFC | huge leak | Jun 10 15:48 |
| oiaohm | How many will _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:48 |
| oiaohm | there are a lot of distribution bugs that would be like the cabin light fails. | Jun 10 15:49 |
| *amarsh04 is chatting to a former reactor engineer in another channel | Jun 10 15:49 | |
| oiaohm | Plan still flies and you can get it back turn on so no problem. | Jun 10 15:49 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, linux has Mandatory Access Controls, things that let you control your software, make sure it only does what you let it | Jun 10 15:49 |
| _Mutex_ | face it software is the ONLY "engineering" disipline that accecpts faults and errors as normal, | Jun 10 15:49 |
| _Mutex_ | FC ?? | Jun 10 15:49 |
| DaemonFC | I'm still waking up, eyes are bleary | Jun 10 15:49 |
| oiaohm | No silcon chip design also accept errors inside tollerances. | Jun 10 15:50 |
| splosion | Linus Torvalds: Look your worshipfulness, I take orders from one person: me! Pamela Jones: Will somebody get this big walking carpet out of my way!? Stallman: Rarrrrrrgh | Jun 10 15:50 |
| DaemonFC | tried to click on ImgBurn and started a new XChat | Jun 10 15:50 |
| oiaohm | Same with most forms of engineering. | Jun 10 15:50 |
| oiaohm | Tollerences in bugs is what would be the effect of this bug. | Jun 10 15:50 |
| _Mutex_ | errors within tollerances are by DEFINITION not errors !! ie they are within tollerance Hmm simple really | Jun 10 15:50 |
| oiaohm | If it crashes the OS yep it has to be fixed. | Jun 10 15:50 |
| oiaohm | Exaclty _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:51 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: My brother said that his school has rolled out some kind of Linux on all the classroom PCs | Jun 10 15:51 |
| oiaohm | Every distribution has a list of tollerences that are acceptable to ship with. | Jun 10 15:51 |
| DaemonFC | the ones in the offices still run Windows XP though | Jun 10 15:51 |
| DaemonFC | the town is broke, so it makes sense that they'd finally break and ditch the idea of upgrading thousands of Windows PCs | Jun 10 15:52 |
| _Mutex_ | with digital tollerenses are like being pregnant you are or you are not. its digital its 0 or its NOT 0 | Jun 10 15:52 |
| oiaohm | Yes they are still list as bugs because they are. Its like if a grinding machine is slighting cutting the bits under size and they still work ok. | Jun 10 15:52 |
| oiaohm | They are not black and white. _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:52 |
| oiaohm | there is a rating system on most of them. | Jun 10 15:52 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: You figure that's what's going on with the $50/100 Windows 7 discs? | Jun 10 15:52 |
| DaemonFC | a "Please don't use Linux!" plea? | Jun 10 15:53 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry digital actually is black and white, (again by definition). | Jun 10 15:53 |
| oiaohm | Depends if the digital is processing fuzzy logic or not. | Jun 10 15:53 |
| _Mutex_ | even fuzzy logic is still logic and its still digital | Jun 10 15:54 |
| *DaemonFC reminds splosion that he has 3 days left to activate or I'll take away his wallpaper and bitch every hour | Jun 10 15:54 | |
| _Mutex_ | as you should well know | Jun 10 15:54 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jun 10 15:54 |
| amarsh04 | if you can have fully specified hardware, you can start to have highly reliable software | Jun 10 15:54 |
| oiaohm | fuzzy logic is about covering invents in digital that are not really black or while. | Jun 10 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Same applies to bugs. | Jun 10 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Some bugs like X feature don't work but program does not crash and does not harm is not what you call a rushed job to fix. | Jun 10 15:55 |
| _Mutex_ | fuzzy logic is a form of control algorithm, just like a PID controller but with a different algorithm, its still computer code, its still 0 or 1. | Jun 10 15:55 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: Is there any decent way to convert flv to just plain H.264 that does not involve playing it back real fast through VLC while it converts? | Jun 10 15:55 |
| amarsh04 | avidemux doesn't support that? | Jun 10 15:56 |
| _Mutex_ | PID = proportional, Intergral, differential (small a) for anti intergral windup. | Jun 10 15:56 |
| oiaohm | Not that I know of the top of my head _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:56 |
| DaemonFC | I really haven't taken a look at that | Jun 10 15:56 |
| oiaohm | _Mutex_: How would you order bug fixing. | Jun 10 15:56 |
| DaemonFC | I hear the Sansa I bought has some kind of internal software that can convert videos to a format it supports | Jun 10 15:57 |
| oiaohm | with limited resourses. | Jun 10 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | which makes no sense at all | Jun 10 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | if it supports converting from a format, it should support PLAYING it, right? | Jun 10 15:57 |
| splosion | Daemon: mencoder input.flv -o output.avi -ovc x264 -x264encopts bitrate=500 -oac mp3lame -lameopts abr:br=52 | Jun 10 15:57 |
| DaemonFC | I mean how retarded is this? | Jun 10 15:57 |
| oiaohm | It the same as having to repair a building with limited resources or build chips with limited resources. | Jun 10 15:57 |
| amarsh04 | I've had some issues with avidemux creating audio/video out of sync, depending on source material and output options chosen | Jun 10 15:57 |
| oiaohm | You have fix what is the most critical first. _Mutex_ | Jun 10 15:58 |
| _Mutex_ | how would I, I do not release code with known bugs, never, who do i get around that,, i dont , i fix the bugs, test and release and support. | Jun 10 15:58 |
| oiaohm | There is a problem. | Jun 10 15:58 |
| oiaohm | So you would never release anything. | Jun 10 15:58 |
| _Mutex_ | If i released hardware or software designs with bugs I would be fired, and ive never been fired. | Jun 10 15:58 |
| amarsh04 | and also remember the line from kernel.org: report small bugs as they can hide big bugs | Jun 10 15:58 |
| DaemonFC | that's true | Jun 10 15:59 |
| DaemonFC | they can be a symptom of a much larger problem | Jun 10 15:59 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive released LOTS AND LOTS of things, mainly in the S&I fields, (scientific and industrial instrumentation) | Jun 10 15:59 |
| splosion | DaemonFC: just use ffmpeg. I just gave you the syntax :P | Jun 10 15:59 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu prefers the other way around "report huge bugs so we can hide them" | Jun 10 15:59 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jun 10 15:59 |
| amarsh04 | what is the code size you are dealing with _Mutex_? | Jun 10 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Have you had people testing while you are developing it like Ubuntu developers have to put up with. | Jun 10 15:59 |
| oiaohm | So always finding bugs. | Jun 10 15:59 |
| oiaohm | so you can never get to release point. | Jun 10 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm: I like Fedora for a few reasons, one of which is Koji | Jun 10 16:00 |
| _Mutex_ | depends on the app, alot is small c code apps, but ive done some huge labVIEW apps that consume megs of code. | Jun 10 16:00 |
| fewa | for a stable system i would also recommend debian over ubuntu | Jun 10 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | I never have to build the latest kernels if I need one | Jun 10 16:00 |
| DaemonFC | cause they're always already there | Jun 10 16:00 |
| fewa | debian stable is _very_ stable | Jun 10 16:00 |
| amarsh04 | one part of a package I developed was made far simpler by being able to implement a finite state machine directly | Jun 10 16:01 |
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| oiaohm | Have you ever had the case where you code is being tested while you are developing _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:01 |
| _Mutex_ | state machines in LabVIEW are SUPER NICE :) | Jun 10 16:01 |
| _Mutex_ | yes i have | Jun 10 16:01 |
| _Mutex_ | and the hardware was designed and tested before the software, and the software designed and tested before the hardware | Jun 10 16:02 |
| amarsh04 | and then the party that it interfaced to (Australian Taxation Office) had their implmentation wrong and never apologised after finding the problem was at their end | Jun 10 16:02 |
| _Mutex_ | depends on the job | Jun 10 16:02 |
| amarsh04 | implementation even | Jun 10 16:02 |
| _Mutex_ | amarsh, what was the code in VB ? | Jun 10 16:03 |
| _Mutex_ | i know the ATO are quite windows centric | Jun 10 16:03 |
| amarsh04 | initial electronic lodgement service in 1989... state machine for sending tax returns in Kermit for MS-DOS... I still do some stuff with kermit development and you'll find my name in the credits for the last edition of "Using C Kermit" | Jun 10 16:05 |
| _Mutex_ | omg I forgot kermit | Jun 10 16:06 |
| oiaohm | I know from ubuntu mapping to wine that at least 1000 of those open bugs are wine not going to be fixed any time soon. There are over 20000 packages in ubuntu. You will find there are some bug central points too. | Jun 10 16:06 |
| amarsh04 | you should read the changelogs about the lengths they go to finding out why code doesn't work on some platforms... one of the most complex sets of #define's in makefiles known | Jun 10 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Due to the size of distributions its basically impossiable to release them 100 perecent bug free _Mutex_. | Jun 10 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Particularly with items like wine in the mix that require lots of work to close each bug. | Jun 10 16:07 |
| amarsh04 | the kermit project released a very small gpl'd subset called gkermit | Jun 10 16:08 |
| _Mutex_ | I know 100% bug free might be a big as, but not 25,000 bugs "so lets ship", | Jun 10 16:08 |
| amarsh04 | kermit runs on almost as many platforms as gzip | Jun 10 16:08 |
| _Mutex_ | what was the other one, there was kermit and telnet ? or something else i think it was called, thats going back a ways :) | Jun 10 16:09 |
| oiaohm | Lot of parts of the distribution are bug free _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:09 |
| amarsh04 | I still hate the "it's stable and relatively bug-free so let's declare it obsolete" mentality | Jun 10 16:09 |
| oiaohm | There are just some places like compiz pulseaudio and others that are bug clusters _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:10 |
| _Mutex_ | oiaohm, sorry that does not cut it, sure if its got 25,000 bugs you be able to find parts with no bugs, so ? | Jun 10 16:10 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu could cut there numbers way back by giving up a lot of flashy bits. | Jun 10 16:10 |
| _Mutex_ | yes amarsh04 thats true, it worked fine | Jun 10 16:10 |
| amarsh04 | file transfer x/y/zmodem, sealink, kermit, uucp... | Jun 10 16:10 |
| oiaohm | zlib was said to be bug free as well at one point. | Jun 10 16:11 |
| _Mutex_ | that exactly what they should do, quality over form anyday | Jun 10 16:11 |
| oiaohm | Many years latter it was proven false. | Jun 10 16:11 |
| oiaohm | Different distributions do _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:12 |
| oiaohm | If people want to play with cutting edge stuff they should not complain about it bitting them a few times. | Jun 10 16:12 |
| *splosion is now known as splosion_ | Jun 10 16:12 | |
| amarsh04 | some sites build a debian kernel with no modules and only the drivers needed for the specific hardware that their machines run | Jun 10 16:13 |
| splosion_ | I'm off to take advantage of a legal loophole that allows me to download unDRM'd versions of television shows that aren't meant to be available without DRM. ttyl | Jun 10 16:13 |
| amarsh04 | I should get some sleep too | Jun 10 16:13 |
| fewa | the thing you all are not seeing is that alot of those bug are in software you dont have installed | Jun 10 16:13 |
| fewa | as in GNU/Linux it is very easy to only install only what you want installed | Jun 10 16:14 |
| _Mutex_ | im just looking at it as an engineer, if you find a fault in your design, you fix it and go onto the next part of the design, you dont just "write it down" and carry on with something else. | Jun 10 16:14 |
| oiaohm | Not that simple. | Jun 10 16:15 |
| _Mutex_ | ive designed this skyscraper but the main supporting beam is not strong enough to hold up the building, but its ok, ive written it down !!! | Jun 10 16:15 |
| oiaohm | That is very much like saying you don't see a road yet will not build bridge under road. | Jun 10 16:15 |
| oiaohm | so you will try to put road in midair with no support. | Jun 10 16:16 |
| _Mutex_ | no its saying as im building or designing the road I find a "bug | Jun 10 16:16 |
| _Mutex_ | " that requires a fix | Jun 10 16:16 |
| _Mutex_ | that might be a bridge or a diversion or whatever, | Jun 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | Bugs in open source can be very much like build road. | Jun 10 16:16 |
| _Mutex_ | but i dont ignore it, write it down and forget about it, i fix it and more on | Jun 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | Just forgeting there is a river in way. | Jun 10 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot of wine long term bugs are that cat. | Jun 10 16:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot of other things required to be fixed first. | Jun 10 16:17 |
| oiaohm | So the long term bug could be fixed. | Jun 10 16:18 |
| _Mutex_ | for every 1000 miles of road you are allowed to have a dead end, a cliff, and a brick wall, because your "allowed" a certain number of screw up ? | Jun 10 16:18 |
| _Mutex_ | yes they should, | Jun 10 16:18 |
| oiaohm | People have ended up off clifts because no one put up the warning sign before. | Jun 10 16:19 |
| oiaohm | I would personally take the brick wall to that. | Jun 10 16:19 |
| oiaohm | Wine need to test there workman ship on the bugs the fix that the long term bugs depend on. | Jun 10 16:21 |
| _Mutex_ | not a good thing right, and mabey it might of even killed you, thats what happens when engineers go wrong :) | Jun 10 16:21 |
| oiaohm | And to get code to users for testing required releases. | Jun 10 16:21 |
| oiaohm | Nasty little problem that. | Jun 10 16:21 |
| oiaohm | How to get broad enough testing to keep building on top of without releases. | Jun 10 16:22 |
| oiaohm | In the highly complex projects. | Jun 10 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Its very much you enginering. | Jun 10 16:23 |
| oiaohm | Build so far test. Ok its good build more. | Jun 10 16:23 |
| amarsh04 | some of the *bsd's had a very limited set of supported hardware that was officially supported... if you can limit the target hardware, you don't need so many person hours to test the "supported" configurations | Jun 10 16:23 |
| oiaohm | Yep as amarsh04 just said problem is the broad types of hardware and setups you have to test for. | Jun 10 16:24 |
| amarsh04 | one tax software company shipped brand-new known-configuration pcs to customers rather than have to support their software on old pcs | Jun 10 16:24 |
| oiaohm | Testcases only get you so far. | Jun 10 16:24 |
| oiaohm | Bugs are part plan. Part problems and part I wish people did not duplicate bug reports. | Jun 10 16:26 |
| schestowitz | Jean Baudrillard - Cultural Identity and Politics - 2002 1/8 < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3kgjjTE0dk&feature=related > | Jun 10 16:26 |
| _Mutex_ | so whats FOSS's QA statement or QA policy, and does Linux perform code reviews, evaluations, and detailed testing, (not user testing) | Jun 10 16:27 |
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| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-114-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 16:27 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Jun 10 16:27 |
| _Hicham_ | howdy oiaohm? | Jun 10 16:27 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel performs code reviews that have turned up some nasty bugs. evaluations and detailed testing. Backed up with user testing. | Jun 10 16:28 |
| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Mutex_ | clearly if its willing to ship with such large numbers of bugs, they dont have a strong QA system in place, | Jun 10 16:28 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, install debian stable | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Hicham_ | no, it is not that | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a big project | Jun 10 16:28 |
| oiaohm | Wine does all of them too. | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Hicham_ | big projects needs community testim | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Hicham_ | *testing | Jun 10 16:28 |
| _Mutex_ | formal code reviews as part of a formal QA system is what I ment, and they dont, they cant and ship with so many design faults | Jun 10 16:29 |
| oiaohm | Yet it still has 4000 bugs+ open _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:29 |
| _Hicham_ | u can't compare Linux kernel to ordinary projects | Jun 10 16:29 |
| oiaohm | Closing them is not simple _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:29 |
| _Mutex_ | what has 4000 bugs open ? | Jun 10 16:29 |
| oiaohm | wine | Jun 10 16:29 |
| _Hicham_ | more than 4000 | Jun 10 16:29 |
| oiaohm | Single project _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:29 |
| *neighborlee has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 10 16:29 | |
| _Hicham_ | kerneloops.org has reached 100000 bugs reported | Jun 10 16:29 |
| oiaohm | This is what I am getting at lot of those bugs are concertrated. | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Mutex_ | that says it all, and its certainly not something to brag about, | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | all of them are hardware related | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Mutex_ | thats dismal | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | and because they were drivers blindly added to the kernel | Jun 10 16:30 |
| oiaohm | Not really. Lot of cases hardware makers specs don't match there devices _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | so it is not their fault | Jun 10 16:30 |
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| _Hicham_ | it is the vendors fault | Jun 10 16:30 |
| _Hicham_ | aka Intel and others | Jun 10 16:30 |
| oiaohm | And you talk about QA controls _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:31 |
| fewa | to anybody who thinks Linux is unstable, so out there and install it, test it out | Jun 10 16:31 |
| _Hicham_ | go for Fedora, which is considered the bleeding edge distro out there | Jun 10 16:31 |
| _Hicham_ | test it and tell me | Jun 10 16:31 |
| _Hicham_ | a lot of hardware just works | Jun 10 16:31 |
| schestowitz | Wb, _Hicham_ , Tallken | Jun 10 16:31 |
| fewa | See how it doesnt need rebooting | Jun 10 16:31 |
| oiaohm | Linux found with ATI video card that features ATI never though any company had released they had. | Jun 10 16:31 |
| schestowitz | I'm quiet today cause I've been away a lot | Jun 10 16:31 |
| schestowitz | Library earlier | Jun 10 16:31 |
| _Hicham_ | thanks schestowitz | Jun 10 16:32 |
| Tallken | hi schestowitz | Jun 10 16:32 |
| oiaohm | Because opensource drivers would not work _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:32 |
| schestowitz | I'll do some quick posts | Jun 10 16:32 |
| fewa | schestowitz, i noticed that kubuntu doesnt come with mono | Jun 10 16:32 |
| oiaohm | So they had to go back and fill in a section that was not documented _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:32 |
| fewa | at least 8.10 | Jun 10 16:32 |
| _Hicham_ | ATI drivers are a big example of how open source drivers can improve | Jun 10 16:32 |
| schestowitz | fewa: why would it? | Jun 10 16:32 |
| fewa | idk | Jun 10 16:32 |
| _Mutex_ | fair enough, i have no problems with that | Jun 10 16:32 |
| schestowitz | OOo more liekly | Jun 10 16:32 |
| fewa | i guess the kde distros are free | Jun 10 16:32 |
| schestowitz | Go-OOOXML | Jun 10 16:32 |
| _Hicham_ | all major distros are free | Jun 10 16:33 |
| schestowitz | MEPIS is fee | Jun 10 16:33 |
| oiaohm | Basically when it comes to bugs things are not as straight forward as most people would hope _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:33 |
| _Hicham_ | are u a dev _Mutex_? | Jun 10 16:33 |
| _Mutex_ | that is true, just like all engineering errors in design | Jun 10 16:33 |
| oiaohm | Like wine mouse bugs they can only be fixed once XI2 gets released. | Jun 10 16:34 |
| _Hicham_ | u seem to be very proficient is OSes since u choose this nick | Jun 10 16:34 |
| _Mutex_ | software is no different | Jun 10 16:34 |
| _Hicham_ | Mutual Exclusion | Jun 10 16:34 |
| oiaohm | So wine is waiting on X11 to release that so they can fix them _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:34 |
| _Mutex_ | thats right, VMS mutex's | Jun 10 16:34 |
| _Mutex_ | well mutex's in general | Jun 10 16:34 |
| oiaohm | X11 is in no hurry about it becausee the only application broken was wine _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:34 |
| oiaohm | No point stuff up the rest of the stack just for wine. | Jun 10 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | did u implements the philosophers' problem solution? | Jun 10 16:35 |
| oiaohm | yep few bugs here and there stack up. | Jun 10 16:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] FTC takes down a spam provider: http://ur1.ca/5gpb | Jun 10 16:35 | |
| _Hicham_ | if u are that proficient with Mutices _Mutex_, go help the kernel devs | Jun 10 16:35 |
| _Hicham_ | go implement a robust file lock | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Mutex_ | how do you know I dont :) | Jun 10 16:36 |
| oiaohm | Then some other wine bugs depend on dri2 working. | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Mutex_ | or a good versioning file system to replace ext4 | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not versioning | Jun 10 16:36 |
| fewa | mmm COW | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Hicham_ | we need a solid file lock | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Mutex_ | ext4 is not thats right, therefore the requirement for one !!! | Jun 10 16:36 |
| _Hicham_ | no, ext4 is fine | Jun 10 16:37 |
| _Hicham_ | it just needs testing | Jun 10 16:37 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nilfs.org/en/ << So you mean this that is in 2.6.30 Linux kernel _Mutex_ | Jun 10 16:37 |
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| _Hicham_ | what is ur main area of development _Mutex_? | Jun 10 16:38 |
| _Mutex_ | reading that it performs a snapshop of the complete file system, I was refering to the VMS style versioning system, where the files are postfixed with a version number as opposed to writing over the previous copy. | Jun 10 16:39 |
| _Hicham_ | that has advantages and disadvantages | Jun 10 16:39 |
| _Mutex_ | a proper versioning system, and while your at it put a good DCL bash into the OS too :) | Jun 10 16:39 |
| _Hicham_ | obvious ones | Jun 10 16:39 |
| _Hicham_ | I think it will never be implemented | Jun 10 16:40 |
| _Mutex_ | embedded, scada, scientific instrumentation, and military communications, satellite comms systems and cryptography | Jun 10 16:40 |
| _Hicham_ | or introduced officially into kernel | Jun 10 16:40 |
| fewa | COW is best | Jun 10 16:40 |
| _Mutex_ | electronics engineering and systems engineerings / software engineer, sysadmin, general geek type | Jun 10 16:41 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no one to talk to in here | Jun 10 16:41 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : are u still in here? | Jun 10 16:45 |
| Balrog | someone should watch the odf wikipedia page | Jun 10 16:45 |
| Balrog | :/ | Jun 10 16:45 |
| _Mutex_ | why, what it doint ? | Jun 10 16:46 |
| _Mutex_ | doing ? | Jun 10 16:46 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 10 16:46 |
| schestowitz | Just writing some stuff ATM | Jun 10 16:46 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: I already watch it | Jun 10 16:47 |
| _Mutex_ | have those links been sorted out schestowitz ? | Jun 10 16:47 |
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| mib_xon7wt | have any lawyers looked at M$ telling oem's what hardware they can and can't put their software on? | Jun 10 16:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Content producers dig Linux too!!!: http://digg.com/d1tSQM?t | Jun 10 16:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] SPOTTED: Linux notebooks with ARM CPUs: http://digg.com/d1tSSE?t | Jun 10 16:50 | |
| schestowitz | HMmmm.. | Jun 10 16:52 |
| _Mutex_ | link it mib ! | Jun 10 16:52 |
| Balrog | schestowitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=OpenDocument&diff=prev&oldid=295582345 | Jun 10 16:52 |
| schestowitz | If you search Google Images for "Microsoft", BN is in page 1 | Jun 10 16:52 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: I watch them all in batches | Jun 10 16:52 |
| Balrog | ahh ok. | Jun 10 16:52 |
| Balrog | looks like there's been a batch of 'changes' right now :( | Jun 10 16:53 |
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| _Mutex_ | and contrary to popular believe, im not anti foss or pre ms or the other way round, ive just got a thing (bee in bonett) about software quality, but I just cant get pashionate for or against some noughts and ones on a computer. | Jun 10 16:59 |
| mib_mwux6y | Sorry I know I am bursting into the middle of others conversations. I would like to know how suspect you think it is that microsoft is dictating to oem companies what hardware they can and can't put windows on. Are lawyers looking at this? | Jun 10 16:59 |
| _Mutex_ | can you link it mib, so I can confirm your right ? | Jun 10 16:59 |
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| fewa | _Mutex_, http://www.maximumpc.com/article/columns/murphys_law_netbook_commands_microsoft | Jun 10 17:02 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, i think you have to seperate the bugs in the whole distrobution with the bugs in the software that you actually use and install | Jun 10 17:02 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, and if you want a really stable system i recommend debian, or centos, instead of a more cutting edge distro like ubuntu or fedora | Jun 10 17:03 |
| mib_mwux6y | I can see it is a busy forum, if anyone replies i will probably miss it, chance we all take. | Jun 10 17:03 |
| Balrog | heh, I use gentoo :) | Jun 10 17:03 |
| Balrog | trying out nouveau caused my Xorg to get broken ... | Jun 10 17:03 |
| fewa | i want to reboot and try fedora 11 with nouveau | Jun 10 17:03 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : did u install Fedora 11? | Jun 10 17:04 |
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| _Mutex_ | stability is not an issue, its not been an issue in windows for years, its never been an issue in VMS and it should not be an issue with any OS in 2009 | Jun 10 17:05 |
| _Mutex_ | Balrog, i just read that article, its the minimum specs that MS suggest for a half decent computing experience, they are NOT FORCING OEM's to use specific hardware or software for that matter. | Jun 10 17:06 |
| _Mutex_ | stability was a problem with Win95 as was Win96 hopeless memory manager that would not deal with more than 512 meg, that was the possible golden age for Linux | Jun 10 17:07 |
| _Mutex_ | because if you had a high end PC in 1995 and 1gig or more RAM you had to use Linux to take advantage of it, | Jun 10 17:07 |
| Balrog | Vista isn't stable even on powerful hardware | Jun 10 17:07 |
| _Mutex_ | Win95 was not good, but RH7.0 at that time, was not perfect, but was on par with or better than 95 | Jun 10 17:08 |
| MinceR | no OS was perfect, ever :> | Jun 10 17:08 |
| _Mutex_ | Ive never seen my vistra machine crash ever, and i push it hard, | Jun 10 17:08 |
| _Mutex_ | If you know of a way to crash it, let me know ill try it | Jun 10 17:08 |
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| DaemonFC | well, Fedora is failing to read a lot of my DVDs | Jun 10 17:09 |
| _Mutex_ | MinceR that is correct, but certainly some are good and some are just average and some are downright terrible | Jun 10 17:09 |
| DaemonFC | it keeps telling me "Unable to mount UDF volume" and somethign about a bad superblock | Jun 10 17:09 |
| Balrog | DaemonFC: defective disc? or corrupted disc (on purpose) | Jun 10 17:10 |
| DaemonFC | I burned both these discs on Vista, XP seems to like one of them | Jun 10 17:10 |
| DaemonFC | but has problems with the other | Jun 10 17:10 |
| DaemonFC | Fedora can't read either | Jun 10 17:10 |
| _Mutex_ | thats odd,. you cant even view the raw data in a file manager? or your unable to even mount them ? | Jun 10 17:11 |
| _Hicham_ | maybe the filesystem? | Jun 10 17:11 |
| _Mutex_ | Right unable to mount sorry missed that one | Jun 10 17:11 |
| DaemonFC | can't mount them | Jun 10 17:11 |
| _Hicham_ | did u burn it with Vista's built-in CD/DVD burner? | Jun 10 17:11 |
| _Mutex_ | its not a silly region thing or something ? | Jun 10 17:11 |
| DaemonFC | hold on | Jun 10 17:12 |
| DaemonFC | grabbed a screenshot | Jun 10 17:12 |
| DaemonFC | http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5889/screenshotslm.png | Jun 10 17:12 |
| _Hicham_ | a la DaemonFC | Jun 10 17:13 |
| DaemonFC | then XP can't read one of them | Jun 10 17:13 |
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| Balrog | DaemonFC: if it's regions, and your drive isn't region-free, you're out of luck | Jun 10 17:14 |
| DaemonFC | why the hell would it reagion encode them? | Jun 10 17:14 |
| DaemonFC | and why can XP read one of them if that's the problem? | Jun 10 17:15 |
| DaemonFC | *region | Jun 10 17:15 |
| _Mutex_ | your recorder might, | Jun 10 17:15 |
| DaemonFC | that makes no sense at all | Jun 10 17:15 |
| _Hicham_ | it makes sense | Jun 10 17:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s FUD Against GNU/Linux on Sub-notebooks Enters Next Level http://ping.fm/bFcPE | Jun 10 17:15 | |
| DaemonFC | XP just says the drive is not accessible | Jun 10 17:15 |
| DaemonFC | I'll use XP to salvage what I can from the disc it can read | Jun 10 17:16 |
| MinceR | aren't regions only implemented in CSS? | Jun 10 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | thank god that's the one with the important stuff on it | Jun 10 17:16 |
| _Mutex_ | yes, seems like it is not recognising the file structure type or the root sector of the medium, or something silly with un closed write sessions or what not. | Jun 10 17:16 |
| DaemonFC | jesus | Jun 10 17:16 |
| splosion_ | hrmm? | Jun 10 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | XP can understand this one | Jun 10 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | I burned it on Vista SP1 | Jun 10 17:17 |
| _Mutex_ | or a simple write error, I bet you didnt go through the long checksum check when buring the DVD | Jun 10 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | the other disc I burned on Vista SP2 | Jun 10 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | and neither XP or Fedora can read it | Jun 10 17:17 |
| _Mutex_ | using the OS's burner SW ? | Jun 10 17:17 |
| DaemonFC | well, the disc neither can read I burned with Explorer | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Hicham_ | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=313551 | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Hicham_ | it is an old problem | Jun 10 17:18 |
| DaemonFC | and the one that only XP can read I burned with ImgBurn | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Hicham_ | it is udf version related babe | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Mutex_ | thats your problem, ive found many times the exact same thing after burning using windows native burner SW its crap | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Hicham_ | patches didn't make it into the mainstream kernel | Jun 10 17:18 |
| _Mutex_ | download "burn4free" it works every time, i love it | Jun 10 17:19 |
| splosion_ | how about mount -t udf /dev/sr0 /media/dvd | Jun 10 17:19 |
| splosion_ | will that work? | Jun 10 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | so how am I going to get XP to burn a clean disc that Fedora can read? | Jun 10 17:19 |
| DaemonFC | does XP have this problem? | Jun 10 17:19 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : use InfraRecorder | Jun 10 17:20 |
| _Mutex_ | download "burn4free" and use that and never ever the windows burner SW | Jun 10 17:20 |
| DaemonFC | I'm dumping the stuff off the disc XP can read to the hard drive and I'll burn a new disc based on that | Jun 10 17:21 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jun 10 17:21 |
| splosion_ | DaemonFC: try mounting the disc with the udf type option. | Jun 10 17:21 |
| DaemonFC | I do that how? | Jun 10 17:21 |
| _Mutex_ | just dont use the MS burner Software, it seems to kill more disks than burn them. | Jun 10 17:21 |
| _Hicham_ | http://infrarecorder.org/ | Jun 10 17:22 |
| _Mutex_ | since i droped it, and use freeware ive never had a problem, 100% success and fast | Jun 10 17:22 |
| splosion_ | mount -t udf /dev/sr0 /media/dvd | Jun 10 17:22 |
| splosion_ | or whatever directory Fedora uses for DVDs | Jun 10 17:22 |
| DaemonFC | mount -t udf /dev/sr0 /media | Jun 10 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | mount: block device /dev/sr0 is write-protected, mounting read-only | Jun 10 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | mount: wrong fs type, bad option, bad superblock on /dev/sr0, | Jun 10 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | missing codepage or helper program, or other error | Jun 10 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | In some cases useful info is found in syslog - try | Jun 10 17:23 |
| DaemonFC | dmesg | tail or so | Jun 10 17:23 |
| splosion_ | bummer | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | dmesg | tail | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | cdrom: This disc doesn't have any tracks I recognize! | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | UDF-fs: No partition found (1) | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | UDF-fs: No partition found (1) | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | udf: udf_read_inode(ino 1569439) failed !bh | Jun 10 17:24 |
| DaemonFC | UDF-fs: No partition found (1) | Jun 10 17:24 |
| _Mutex_ | its a non-issue, just burn a new one, and dont use the Windows burner and it will be fine, problem solved. | Jun 10 17:24 |
| _Hicham_ | I think there is a solution to ur problem | Jun 10 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | so it looks like Vista is burning DVDs that only it can understand | Jun 10 17:25 |
| _Mutex_ | there is, what i said LOL | Jun 10 17:25 |
| DaemonFC | and not even XP can make sense of them | Jun 10 17:25 |
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| DaemonFC | it wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has artificaially crippled older versions of Windows | Jun 10 17:25 |
| _Mutex_ | here this, the WINDOWS burner software does not work all the time, 3rd party S/W like burn4free seem to work far better | Jun 10 17:26 |
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| DaemonFC | I'll just use an RW disc and XP's Explorer | Jun 10 17:26 |
| _Mutex_ | well dont whine about it, use something else, you now know what to do | Jun 10 17:26 |
| DaemonFC | it's never given me any trouble like this when reading the discs on Linux | Jun 10 17:26 |
| trmanco | "Contributor: Intel | Jun 10 17:27 |
| trmanco | Some parts of the kernel boot process can delay the whole process too many time (by kernel's standards): scanning in search of storage devices for a given controller, and searching for partitions, for example, can be slow, because the scanning is synchronous, only one device is scanned at a time, and the kernel has to wait for the devices. With this feature, those steps are done asyncrhonously, so the kernel can keep booting the rest of the kerne | Jun 10 17:27 |
| trmanco | l while the storage devices are scanned in parallel. This feature speeds up the total kernel boot time significantly " | Jun 10 17:27 |
| _Hicham_ | no, look at this page : https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/BluRayAndHDDVD | Jun 10 17:27 |
| _Mutex_ | ive got piles of bad burns before i worked it out, now i dont get ANY EVER... 100% work everywhere for free too | Jun 10 17:27 |
| trmanco | http://lwn.net/Articles/314808/ | Jun 10 17:27 |
| _Hicham_ | the problem is with the udf driver version | Jun 10 17:27 |
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| splosion_ | Daemon: I've had this problem before. I had to mount the disc and specifify the last block or something. | Jun 10 17:27 |
| _Hicham_ | follow this tuto | Jun 10 17:28 |
| trmanco | http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=kernel/async.c;h=f565891f2c9bd069873b93c12e7ecb0424876c90;hb=5d80f8e5a9dc9c9a94d4aeaa567e219a808b8a4a | Jun 10 17:28 |
| trmanco | miracle source file, I bet fedora and ubuntu are going to love this | Jun 10 17:29 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : where are u? | Jun 10 17:30 |
| _Hicham_ | still encoding/decoding? | Jun 10 17:30 |
| DaemonFC | trying to unfuck the nasty surprise Vista left me | Jun 10 17:30 |
| _Hicham_ | did u try DumpHD? | Jun 10 17:30 |
| _Hicham_ | or just finding the udf version? | Jun 10 17:31 |
| _Hicham_ | u r a drm lover | Jun 10 17:31 |
| _Hicham_ | that is how u got things from Vista | Jun 10 17:31 |
| _Hicham_ | u Vista lover | Jun 10 17:31 |
| DaemonFC | it's not my fault Linux is incompatible | Jun 10 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | it is not incompatible | Jun 10 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | it is illegal | Jun 10 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | there is a difference | Jun 10 17:32 |
| _Hicham_ | and u r stubborn | Jun 10 17:33 |
| _Hicham_ | I already explained | Jun 10 17:33 |
| _Hicham_ | but u don't wanna hear | Jun 10 17:33 |
| _Hicham_ | I thought u were smart | Jun 10 17:33 |
| _Hicham_ | but I am deceived | Jun 10 17:33 |
| DaemonFC | I know what it is, Microsoft knows that all they have to do is tweak the standard a little bit and the Linux people will stand there and tell you they don't support adding two lines of code to make it work | Jun 10 17:34 |
| DaemonFC | cause it's non-standard | Jun 10 17:34 |
| *PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 10 17:35 | |
| splosion_ | OK. Prepared to try one last crazy command, Daemon? | Jun 10 17:35 |
| DaemonFC | the funny thing is they don't even have to sabotage it much, they just let swollen egos do the heavy lifting for them | Jun 10 17:35 |
| DaemonFC | sue | Jun 10 17:35 |
| DaemonFC | *sure | Jun 10 17:35 |
| splosion_ | mount /dev/sr0 /media/dvd -s -t udf -o ro,user,noauto,exec,umask=0,session=0,lastblock=$(wodim dev='/dev/sr0' -toc | grep 'lout lba' | awk '{ print $3 } ') | Jun 10 17:35 |
| _Hicham_ | ok, big tweaker | Jun 10 17:36 |
| splosion_ | The wodim command here [ wodim dev='/dev/sr0' -toc | grep 'lout lba' | awk '{ print $3 }' ] --- should give the final block of the disc. The rest of the command mounts and manually sets the last block. | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Errno: 5 (Input/output error), read toc scsi sendcmd: no error | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | CDB: 43 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 00 | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | status: 0x2 (CHECK CONDITION) | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Sense Bytes: 70 00 05 00 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 24 00 00 00 | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Sense Key: 0x5 Illegal Request, Segment 0 | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Sense Code: 0x24 Qual 0x00 (invalid field in cdb) Fru 0x0 | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | Sense flags: Blk 0 (not valid) | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | cmd finished after 0.001s timeout 40s | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | wodim: Cannot read TOC header | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | wodim: Cannot read TOC/PMA | Jun 10 17:37 |
| splosion_ | bummer! | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | mount: mount point /media/dvd does not exist | Jun 10 17:37 |
| DaemonFC | the disc is fucked | Jun 10 17:37 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 17:37 | |
| DaemonFC | that's all it has to say | Jun 10 17:38 |
| Balrog | DaemonFC: are you using cheap media? | Jun 10 17:38 |
| DaemonFC | no | Jun 10 17:38 |
| Balrog | or a cheap/old drive? | Jun 10 17:38 |
| DaemonFC | Sony DVD-R | Jun 10 17:38 |
| DaemonFC | no | Jun 10 17:38 |
| DaemonFC | the drive is good | Jun 10 17:38 |
| Balrog | hrrm | Jun 10 17:39 |
| Balrog | that's odd | Jun 10 17:39 |
| Balrog | never seen such problems | Jun 10 17:39 |
| fewa | what did you burn it with? | Jun 10 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | the one that nothing can read? | Jun 10 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | Vista's Windows Explorer | Jun 10 17:39 |
| fewa | I think ive had that before, then i just use nero or imgburn | Jun 10 17:39 |
| DaemonFC | I dumped the one that XP can read onto the disc | Jun 10 17:40 |
| DaemonFC | and I'm having ImgBurn write a new DVD | Jun 10 17:40 |
| DaemonFC | *disk | Jun 10 17:40 |
| fewa | windows explorer is broken cause it copies every file | Jun 10 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, so you can drag and drop stuff | Jun 10 17:41 |
| DaemonFC | then it closes the disc when you hit the eject button | Jun 10 17:41 |
| fewa | it could just keep reference to the files | Jun 10 17:41 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : can u try IsoBuster with wine? | Jun 10 17:41 |
| fewa | it doesnt need to unneccicarily copy them | Jun 10 17:41 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : move ur ass | Jun 10 17:43 |
| DaemonFC | and Ustream won't work with Fedora | Jun 10 17:45 |
| *edgedweller001 is now known as neighborlee | Jun 10 17:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | Ustream? | Jun 10 17:47 |
| DaemonFC | http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/604/screenshotczv.png | Jun 10 17:47 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, perhaps firefox beta bug | Jun 10 17:47 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm | Jun 10 17:48 |
| *Balrog has quit ("leaving") | Jun 10 17:48 | |
| DaemonFC | works partially on Ubuntu, you have to fuck around with Pulseaudio to get it to see your mic | Jun 10 17:48 |
| fewa | firefox and flash work identical across platforms, as far as ive seen | Jun 10 17:48 |
| DaemonFC | hey hey | Jun 10 17:48 |
| DaemonFC | it sees the disc XP wrote | Jun 10 17:48 |
| splosion_ | http://www.tvweek.com/blogs/tvbizwire/2009/06/the-futurama-is-now-comedy-cen.php Oh God yes | Jun 10 17:49 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC, its not just you..3beta4 is not terribly reliable.. | Jun 10 17:50 |
| DaemonFC | so the final release should work again? | Jun 10 17:50 |
| neighborlee | I cant view BN site without horrible laggying if I try to 'scroll' page..using konqueror its totally fine | Jun 10 17:50 |
| neighborlee | I have final release and its still using 3beta4 :( | Jun 10 17:51 |
| neighborlee | though im not ;) | Jun 10 17:51 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: yes, I heard | Jun 10 17:51 |
| schestowitz | Fedora 3.5? | Jun 10 17:51 |
| schestowitz | *Firefox | Jun 10 17:51 |
| schestowitz | Is it scrolling poorly? | Jun 10 17:52 |
| neighborlee | really bad | Jun 10 17:52 |
| neighborlee | sorry yes..3.5b4 | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | <edgedweller001> there is something sluggish going on at BN..I cant scroll without computer getting very sluggish..ive only ever seen it at places like gamespot or IGN or such... | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | <edgedweller001> ok well..its only happening in firefox 3beta4 I guess..konqueror seems to be fine | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | <edgedweller001> dain fedora anyway and their 'testing' beta releases of firefox o_0 ;) | Jun 10 17:52 |
| neighborlee | sorry yes..3.5b4 | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | 3.5. | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | Did you change nicks? | Jun 10 17:52 |
| schestowitz | Odd. | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | ROFL | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | not quick in the am I see <grins> | Jun 10 17:53 |
| schestowitz | I wish I knew what causes this in FF | Jun 10 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Do you use COmpiz? | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | I do | Jun 10 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Cause _Hicham_ had the same problem | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | well I do now..I wasnt' 15 minutes ago | Jun 10 17:53 |
| schestowitz | Mozilla says it's Compiz related | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | well its not | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | konqueror is working fine here..with compitz | Jun 10 17:53 |
| schestowitz | So it was the same without, I see.... | Jun 10 17:53 |
| neighborlee | compiz | Jun 10 17:54 |
| schestowitz | Was it not working in 3.5 without COmpiz? | Jun 10 17:54 |
| neighborlee | yeah same both ways | Jun 10 17:54 |
| schestowitz | Let me try it | Jun 10 17:54 |
| neighborlee | firefox is a mess even in windows | Jun 10 17:54 |
| *EDavidBurg (n=eric@unaffiliated/edavidburg) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 17:54 | |
| schestowitz | I have both versions | Jun 10 17:54 |
| neighborlee | well to be fair..windows issues are at least in part due to aero...aero isnt terribly effiicient apparantly ;) | Jun 10 17:54 |
| neighborlee | k | Jun 10 17:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @wordpresspt: RT @wpfreelance: #Wordpress 2.8 due in hours. Get ready to rock'n'roll. | Jun 10 17:55 | |
| schestowitz | Darn | Jun 10 17:55 |
| DaemonFC | so what happened to the 32-bit libs for Nvidia? | Jun 10 17:55 |
| schestowitz | I hate updating | Jun 10 17:55 |
| DaemonFC | on RPM Fusion? | Jun 10 17:55 |
| neighborlee | well also..I was having really slow web surfing in fedora 11..until I emoved ipv6 support in browser via::: about:config | Jun 10 17:56 |
| neighborlee | whey do they enable that out of box anyone know ? ;) | Jun 10 17:56 |
| DaemonFC | cause | Jun 10 17:56 |
| DaemonFC | it's "advanced" :P | Jun 10 17:56 |
| DaemonFC | why does Vista enable it? | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | Why does Ubuntu force it? | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | if they do..I guess they do it right | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | o_0 | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | you have to recompile the kernel in Ubuntu | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | to remove it ??? | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | to turn off ipv6or make it a module you can disable/enable on the fly | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise it's compiled into the kernel | Jun 10 17:57 |
| DaemonFC | and you can't shut it down | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | its already off | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | via about:config | Jun 10 17:57 |
| neighborlee | supposedly..according to forum info anyway o_0 | Jun 10 17:58 |
| DaemonFC | no, I'm talking about the kernel level | Jun 10 17:58 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu forces it on you | Jun 10 17:58 |
| neighborlee | oh - | Jun 10 17:58 |
| neighborlee | ICK | Jun 10 17:58 |
| neighborlee | thats-=weird | Jun 10 17:58 |
| neighborlee | 1 more reason not to use it apparantly | Jun 10 17:59 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: same as the last time here | Jun 10 17:59 |
| schestowitz | BN scrolls OK | Jun 10 18:00 |
| schestowitz | But schestowitz.com is painfulllt laggy in scrolling | Jun 10 18:00 |
| neighborlee | 3.5b4 ? | Jun 10 18:00 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a firefox only issue | Jun 10 18:00 |
| neighborlee | hmm | Jun 10 18:00 |
| _Hicham_ | epiphany works fine | Jun 10 18:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Colonisation in Thailand and Peru http://ping.fm/CxviN | Jun 10 18:00 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Alguem sabe a tradução para PT de "flushing"?? | Jun 10 18:00 | |
| _Hicham_ | chromium works great | Jun 10 18:00 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 10 18:00 |
| schestowitz | b4 | Jun 10 18:00 |
| DaemonFC | http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/941/screenshotv.png | Jun 10 18:00 |
| splosion_ | Heh. Looking at the ODF wiki history. Getting Weir'd, Growlaw'd, BN'd AND Slashdotted seems to be improving things somewhat | Jun 10 18:00 |
| DaemonFC | At least these work :P | Jun 10 18:00 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a bug in firefox | Jun 10 18:01 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: when FF is released we'll need to work around it | Jun 10 18:01 |
| schestowitz | Like 66% of the visitors use Firefox | Jun 10 18:01 |
| schestowitz | 3.0 for the most part | Jun 10 18:01 |
| DaemonFC | is the Ustream breakage Firefox? | Jun 10 18:01 |
| DaemonFC | or a Fedora problem? | Jun 10 18:01 |
| _Hicham_ | i had to manually remove transparent backgournd images from BN | Jun 10 18:01 |
| _Hicham_ | using custom css file | Jun 10 18:02 |
| neighborlee | I think its upstream...im rather sure its also a windows OS problem..id have to check to be sure | Jun 10 18:02 |
| _Hicham_ | which fixed the problem | Jun 10 18:02 |
| *DaemonFC goes to grab the Opera 10 beta RPM | Jun 10 18:02 | |
| _Hicham_ | seems that firefox is using some acceleration method | Jun 10 18:02 |
| _Hicham_ | which doesn't take advantage of the GPU | Jun 10 18:02 |
| _Hicham_ | Firefox 3.0.10 was perfect in this regard | Jun 10 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Someone just mailed me this: "The error speaks for itself: http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=196043 Actually both errors. The error explicitly described in the message above and the implicit error of trying to still use Windows in 2009. It's hard to say which category that user fits into: doesn't know about computers, doesn't care about computers, or is wanting to exploit the first two groups." | Jun 10 18:04 |
| _Hicham_ | really responsive scrolling | Jun 10 18:04 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, its many other websites too not just bn | Jun 10 18:05 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: yes, please check | Jun 10 18:05 |
| neighborlee | k np | Jun 10 18:05 |
| neighborlee | brb | Jun 10 18:05 |
| schestowitz | That would help me know what the issue may be | Jun 10 18:05 |
| DaemonFC | Ustream simply freezes Opera | Jun 10 18:05 |
| *neighborlee has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 10 18:05 | |
| schestowitz | And not just an X problem | Jun 10 18:05 |
| _Hicham_ | Transparent background images schestowitz | Jun 10 18:05 |
| _Hicham_ | as always | Jun 10 18:05 |
| DaemonFC | anyway, an excuse to test Firefox on Linux vs on Vista | Jun 10 18:06 |
| DaemonFC | running it through Peacekeeper | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | here is the content of my my userContent.css | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | @-moz-document domain(boycottnovell.com) | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | { | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | * | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | { | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | background-image : none !important; | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | } | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | } | Jun 10 18:07 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: F11 is still loading Tomboy | Jun 10 18:07 |
| DaemonFC | per default | Jun 10 18:07 |
| _Hicham_ | this should be done as a temporary workaround for website that use transparent background images | Jun 10 18:08 |
| _Hicham_ | until the issue get fixed upstream | Jun 10 18:08 |
| DaemonFC | canvas graphics appear to be faster on Firefox for Linux | Jun 10 18:09 |
| _Hicham_ | Mozilla is aware of this | Jun 10 18:09 |
| _Hicham_ | maybe they should work with Chromium? | Jun 10 18:09 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: maybe the full DVD/CD | Jun 10 18:09 |
| schestowitz | But ot's F11 | Jun 10 18:09 |
| schestowitz | Not F12 | Jun 10 18:09 |
| *neighborlee (n=neighbor@c-24-16-17-168.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 18:09 | |
| schestowitz | It's F12 when gnote comes in | Jun 10 18:09 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, beta issue I guess..3.0.10 in windows is fine for BN | Jun 10 18:10 |
| _Hicham_ | on the live cd , there is no tomboy | Jun 10 18:10 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, citing lack of space | Jun 10 18:10 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: other Web site with same issue? | Jun 10 18:10 |
| schestowitz | *sites | Jun 10 18:10 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Jun 10 18:10 |
| _Hicham_ | a lot of sites | Jun 10 18:10 |
| _Hicham_ | not only yours | Jun 10 18:10 |
| schestowitz | neighborlee: 3.0.10? | Jun 10 18:10 |
| neighborlee | _Hicham_, yes | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | We talk about 3.5 though | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | IGN is still slow | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | OK, good | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | I noted that its likely the beta | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | This means they'll get flack and pressr | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | I canrt find beta for windows | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | ..can't | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | So they need to tweak soemthing | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | no doubt | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Windows is obscure | Jun 10 18:11 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox on Windows is almost a third faster | Jun 10 18:11 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they'll release of it eventually | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Like Oracle | Jun 10 18:11 |
| schestowitz | Linux first, Windows later | Jun 10 18:12 |
| neighborlee | heh | Jun 10 18:12 |
| splosion_ | How many people browse BN with IE 6, btw? | Jun 10 18:12 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox 3.5b4 on Vista scored 1642, Firefox 3.5b4 on Fedora 11 X86-64 scored 1081 | Jun 10 18:12 |
| DaemonFC | same machine | Jun 10 18:12 |
| schestowitz | WTF? "Oliver Bell (osrin) is now following your updates on Twitter." | Jun 10 18:12 |
| schestowitz | It's a Microsoft manager | Jun 10 18:13 |
| DaemonFC | black helicopters are now following you | Jun 10 18:13 |
| DaemonFC | on Twitter | Jun 10 18:13 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Jun 10 18:13 |
| schestowitz | splosion_: haven't checked in ages. Maybe 5% | Jun 10 18:13 |
| _Hicham_ | Firefox Fedora have some debugging info | Jun 10 18:13 |
| schestowitz | IE is about 12% at most | Jun 10 18:13 |
| _Hicham_ | that is why it is slower | Jun 10 18:13 |
| splosion_ | makes sense | Jun 10 18:13 |
| neighborlee | DaemonFC, gez | Jun 10 18:13 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: he's in OOXML | Jun 10 18:13 |
| schestowitz | So he'll track me, I guess | Jun 10 18:14 |
| DaemonFC | can't you block him from following you? | Jun 10 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Jun 10 18:14 |
| schestowitz | I know about him | Jun 10 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Over a year ago he asked about me | Jun 10 18:14 |
| schestowitz | Over dinner in Malaysia | Jun 10 18:14 |
| DaemonFC | so does anyone know where the 32-bit libraries are for Nvidia? | Jun 10 18:15 |
| splosion_ | Well, you were writing about the Wikipedia stuff before it all blew up today. Maybe he wants to have some warning next time :P | Jun 10 18:15 |
| neighborlee | hmmmm maybe its not upstream o_0 | Jun 10 18:15 |
| *DaemonFC goes to find his Doom 3 to see if they just include those libs in the main driver pack now | Jun 10 18:15 | |
| schestowitz | MS: “Gathering intelligence on enemy activities is critical to the success of the Slog.” http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf | Jun 10 18:15 |
| schestowitz | splosion_: yes, it came from BN | Jun 10 18:15 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, 3.5b here in <GASP: vista sp1>,is NOT displaying the horrible slow scrolling..not atm at least..let me enable aero and see what happens o-) | Jun 10 18:16 |
| schestowitz | I did like 5 posts detailing the edits | Jun 10 18:16 |
| schestowitz | It was in Planet ODF | Jun 10 18:16 |
| schestowitz | And IBM reads BN | Jun 10 18:16 |
| neighborlee | schestowitz, it slows down a TAD more..but nothing at all like fedora | Jun 10 18:16 |
| schestowitz | Aerrror | Jun 10 18:16 |
| schestowitz | Dman. | Jun 10 18:17 |
| schestowitz | Maybe we'll just change BG | Jun 10 18:17 |
| DaemonFC | I see Fedora still has problems ejecting discs | Jun 10 18:17 |
| DaemonFC | sometimes you have to use su -c 'eject' | Jun 10 18:17 |
| neighborlee | ouch | Jun 10 18:17 |
| *DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 10 18:17 | |
| neighborlee | I didn't try that I should and will when I get back into fedora | Jun 10 18:17 |
| schestowitz | OK | Jun 10 18:18 |
| schestowitz | It would be annoying to change the whole theme in preparation for some browser version. | Jun 10 18:18 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jun 10 18:18 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : u don't have to | Jun 10 18:19 |
| schestowitz | Que? | Jun 10 18:19 |
| _Hicham_ | to change the whole theme | Jun 10 18:20 |
| splosion_ | There's a minimalist version of the BN theme http://userstyles.org/styles/5307 | Jun 10 18:20 |
| schestowitz | This is probably good for Linux (Apple stays with a poor FS): http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/10/snow_leopard_no_zfs/ | Jun 10 18:21 |
| EDavidBurg | schestowitz: 10.6 server has ZFS read/write support | Jun 10 18:25 |
| EDavidBurg | 10.5 did too, I'm pretty sure | Jun 10 18:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Webhost denies poor passwords led to catastrophic hack http://ping.fm/JB1Pb | Jun 10 18:25 | |
| EDavidBurg | I've never had any issues with HFS+, but I'm not an FS geek, so I'm sure there are a thousand reasons someone could give me to not like it and I'd just have to trust their word | Jun 10 18:26 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : firefox 3.6 doesn't have the issue | Jun 10 18:26 |
| _Hicham_ | I just checked | Jun 10 18:27 |
| EDavidBurg | really the only problem I've had is that windows HFS+ support sucks unless you pay, and linux's is unreliable and only works if you disable journaling | Jun 10 18:27 |
| EDavidBurg | but OS X is the same way with ext3/4 | Jun 10 18:28 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 10 18:29 | |
| schestowitz | Linux gets new FSs | Jun 10 18:29 |
| schestowitz | 2.6.30 is coming any day now too. btrfs and ext34 still there. | Jun 10 18:30 |
| schestowitz | *4 | Jun 10 18:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This afternoon boycottnovell got its 20,000th comment | Jun 10 18:30 | |
| _Mutex_ | BZ BN !!! | Jun 10 18:31 |
| schestowitz | http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/140178/from/rss09 "In a separate development, The Times of India reports that the founder of Lxlabs, K T Ligesh, was found dead at his home after hanging himself. It is not known whether Ligesh's death is in any way related to the attacks on HyperVM and Kloxo, or what the future for Lxlabs may be." | Jun 10 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Not a very " separate development" | Jun 10 18:37 |
| schestowitz | Related to the crack | Jun 10 18:37 |
| schestowitz | We get about 1 comment per 1000 pageviews. Normal ratio | Jun 10 18:38 |
| _Mutex_ | it's beyond me why anyone would take their own life, especially for something like software, or money, always seems like a waiste of talent | Jun 10 18:41 |
| schestowitz | yeah, waste of good body | Jun 10 18:44 |
| schestowitz | A lot of people kill themselves over psychologica stress | Jun 10 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Whereas others with tormenting disability or injury are lodging to stay alive | Jun 10 18:44 |
| splosion_ | Hah. From the Groklaw thread about ODF. "Saturate; diffuse; confuse." | Jun 10 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Where? | Jun 10 18:44 |
| schestowitz | I heard that befgore | Jun 10 18:44 |
| schestowitz | A friend of mine uses the term. Maybe it's a common one | Jun 10 18:44 |
| splosion_ | http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=2009061001520015&title=Saturate%2C%20diffuse%2C%20confuse&type=article&order=ASC&hideanonymous=0&pid=760951#c760995 | Jun 10 18:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The kernel foundation[sic] speaks to Sutor of ODF fame: http://ping.fm/VyFUI | Jun 10 18:45 | |
| *neighborlee has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 10 18:45 | |
| schestowitz | Edit stuff, walk away, come back later, remove some other stuff, profit! | Jun 10 18:45 |
| schestowitz | And they get paid | Jun 10 18:46 |
| schestowitz | Not directly | Jun 10 18:46 |
| schestowitz | The MicroTurfs get OOXML-related contracts | Jun 10 18:46 |
| *_Goblin (n=goblin@cpc2-pool2-0-0-cust146.sotn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 18:47 | |
| _Goblin | evening all | Jun 10 18:47 |
| schestowitz | The INQ is dying | Jun 10 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Charlie has already moved to his own site | Jun 10 18:49 |
| schestowitz | Which he launched days ago | Jun 10 18:49 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is why The Inquirer has been quiet/sporadic recently. It's coming apart. http://ping.fm/znnEr | Jun 10 18:50 | |
| schestowitz | AMD takes Intel market share < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1212664/amd-takes-intel-market-share > | Jun 10 18:51 |
| _Mutex_ | AMD's recent release of CPU's and the anti-compet are paying off | Jun 10 18:51 |
| schestowitz | Rightly but not enough now | Jun 10 18:52 |
| schestowitz | Intel will never be properly punished. Like MS, it proved crimes pays. | Jun 10 18:52 |
| schestowitz | *rime | Jun 10 18:52 |
| _Mutex_ | I cant comment ive not looked at any comparisons recently, | Jun 10 18:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nick Farrell, another key INQ writer, started writing elsewhere and Charlie started his own site. Et tu, INQ? | Jun 10 18:55 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Asay idiocy continues when he uses Linux releases to blindly promote Macs http://ping.fm/VDj1j | Jun 10 18:55 | |
| schestowitz | heh. http://twitter.com/itwire_com | Jun 10 18:57 |
| schestowitz | Is this Groklaw or an imposter? http://twitter.com/Groklaw | Jun 10 18:59 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ITWire underwent some serious staff changes too. Maybe it's time to unsubscribe.. | Jun 10 19:00 | |
| fewa | HAl was blocked for edit warring | Jun 10 19:01 |
| splosion_ | hah | Jun 10 19:01 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Office_Open_XML#MS%20self-published | Jun 10 19:02 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#hAl_Microsoft_Topic_Ban | Jun 10 19:03 |
| fewa | wow, it happened | Jun 10 19:04 |
| schestowitz | Alex Brown mentions us and takes a shot at Weir: http://www.adjb.net/post/No-one-supports-ISO-ODF-today.aspx Typical MS... ASPX even | Jun 10 19:07 |
| splosion_ | Nice. Kicking up a stink. | Jun 10 19:07 |
| fewa | yep | Jun 10 19:07 |
| schestowitz | Finally | Jun 10 19:07 |
| schestowitz | I only saw few photos of the hAl shill, but I hate his guts without meeting his | Jun 10 19:08 |
| schestowitz | Others do too | Jun 10 19:08 |
| schestowitz | Not just ODF folks | Jun 10 19:08 |
| schestowitz | Not to worry. MS will set him up with some honeypot IP promptly | Jun 10 19:08 |
| schestowitz | High Netbook Return Rate? Windows Is the Problem http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2009/06/high-netbook-return-rate-windo.html | Jun 10 19:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft breaks another record: http://ping.fm/46hAZ | Jun 10 19:10 | |
| schestowitz | Congress Considers Partially Removing Tax Exemption On Employer Provided Health Benefits < http://consumerist.com/5283788/congress-considers-partially-removing-tax-exemption-on-employer-provided-health-benefits > | Jun 10 19:11 |
| fewa | lol @ reagen | Jun 10 19:12 |
| fewa | *reagan | Jun 10 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Reaganites | Jun 10 19:12 |
| fewa | but they are attacking people who support a old Reagan policy | Jun 10 19:13 |
| fewa | its called idolotry to the point of revisionism | Jun 10 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Did you hear last year about the Russian submarine story? | Jun 10 19:14 |
| schestowitz | The press didn't cover it | Jun 10 19:14 |
| fewa | link pls | Jun 10 19:14 |
| schestowitz | It's probably one of the most important events of the second part of the 20th century | Jun 10 19:14 |
| schestowitz | Hold on.. | Jun 10 19:14 |
| fewa | ohh the north atlantic one? | Jun 10 19:14 |
| _Mutex_ | is that the one with the fly screens ?? | Jun 10 19:14 |
| fewa | the flag | Jun 10 19:14 |
| schestowitz | As I said, it's scarcely covered | Jun 10 19:14 |
| fewa | flag on the bottom of the artic ocean? | Jun 10 19:14 |
| _Goblin | good link Roy...Im currently writing my "On Holiday with XP" article for my week of experiences.... | Jun 10 19:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Obama.. No Release of Transcripts for Destroyed "Torture Video" Tapes < http://ping.fm/mcsMf > | Jun 10 19:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] hAl (Albert) has been banned from Wikipedia for shilling for Microsoft. Long overdue. | Jun 10 19:15 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Some criminal(ish) company is preparing to destroy Twitter: http://ping.fm/UWyz3 | Jun 10 19:15 | |
| schestowitz | dman, I can hadly find it | Jun 10 19:16 |
| schestowitz | fewa: not that.. | Jun 10 19:17 |
| schestowitz | fewa: sorry, I can't find it | Jun 10 19:18 |
| schestowitz | Seen lots about it yesterday | Jun 10 19:18 |
| schestowitz | I could only find this old one now.. [video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0eUtBAWyA | Jun 10 19:18 |
| schestowitz | Lawyers plan class-action to reclaim "$100M+" RIAA "stole" < http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/lawyers-plan-class-action-to-reclaim-100m-riaa-stole.ars > | Jun 10 19:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz LOL...First of many I hope! | Jun 10 19:20 | |
| schestowitz | Bee Gees singer lends voice to copyright fight < http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090610/bs_afp/entertainmentusmusicitcopyrightinternetgibb_20090610025840 > Drama drama! | Jun 10 19:20 |
| schestowitz | AP Reporter Reprimanded For Facebook Post; Union Protests < http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/facebooksword/ > | Jun 10 19:21 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu Jaunty Jackalope on Dell XPS M1330 < http://bigbrovar.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/ubuntu-junty-jackalope-on-dell-xps-m1330/ > | Jun 10 19:22 |
| fewa | this http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/10/wartime-soviet-sub-wreck-found? | Jun 10 19:23 |
| fewa | http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/10/wartime-soviet-sub-wreck-found | Jun 10 19:23 |
| _Mutex_ | Australian broadcasting exec sacked for allowing a comody skit to go to air, | Jun 10 19:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Government Motors sucks up government money, invests in @#$%^%$#$%^ http://bit.ly/A2bXC | Jun 10 19:25 | |
| schestowitz | fewa: "A Soviet submarine that was lost almost 70 years ago on a wartime mission against Finland has been discovered lying semi-intact on the floor of the Baltic Sea, its gun tower and broken hull visible in the gloom." | Jun 10 19:25 |
| schestowitz | Not related t the missile crisis | Jun 10 19:25 |
| schestowitz | "Unlike the Germans, however, Stalin encountered unexpected resistance from the outnumbered Finns, who waged a successful guerrilla war against inexperienced Red Army troops, many of whose officers had been executed in purges. Finland signed a treaty with the Soviets in March 1940, ceding 9% of its territory." | Jun 10 19:26 |
| schestowitz | Students who went on strike over CCTVs in classroom speak < http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/09/students-who-went-on.html > | Jun 10 19:27 |
| schestowitz | Judge: Media coverage depends on public access < http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/03/BAER1805DT.DTL > | Jun 10 19:27 |
| fewa | this http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gzanGQhdrTwzRwY74tUviZWp1uRgD98NSNRO0 ? | Jun 10 19:28 |
| fewa | "Russia doesn't want to go below 1,500 warheads" | Jun 10 19:28 |
| fewa | i cant seem to get it | Jun 10 19:28 |
| _Mutex_ | the pirate bay judge was ruled unbiased in his ruling against TPB | Jun 10 19:28 |
| schestowitz | fewa: fair enough | Jun 10 19:29 |
| schestowitz | The other countries should cut down too | Jun 10 19:29 |
| schestowitz | It's like the emissions situation | Jun 10 19:29 |
| fewa | US is a giant hipicrit on nuclear stuff | Jun 10 19:29 |
| schestowitz | Non proliferation treaty is not being honoured | Jun 10 19:30 |
| fewa | hypocrite | Jun 10 19:30 |
| schestowitz | The US doesn't care about international laws, so why should other countries? | Jun 10 19:30 |
| schestowitz | fewa: trust the US | Jun 10 19:30 |
| schestowitz | They know. | Jun 10 19:30 |
| schestowitz | They never invaded countries unless it was for the benefit of the people... oh, wait | Jun 10 19:30 |
| fewa | :P | Jun 10 19:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sweden says it's OK for the judge to be in the pocket of the plaintiff http://ping.fm/pqWbN | Jun 10 19:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Another critical hole in low quality Microsoft Excel: http://digg.com/d1tTLM?t | Jun 10 19:30 | |
| fewa | I live in the US | Jun 10 19:30 |
| schestowitz | They should teach this in school... history lessons | Jun 10 19:31 |
| schestowitz | Each country teaches its own 'approved' version of history | Jun 10 19:31 |
| _Mutex_ | and they win every war they fight .... oh, wait again | Jun 10 19:31 |
| schestowitz | For example: | Jun 10 19:31 |
| schestowitz | The slaves are always "happy yo help us out" | Jun 10 19:31 |
| _Mutex_ | japan | Jun 10 19:31 |
| schestowitz | Wars are always needed because they are the "bad guys" | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | "Japen was with the Nazis" | Jun 10 19:32 |
| fewa | yeah thats a good one | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | Japan was a threat to the existence of the US | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | Like granada :-) | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | Or Nicaragua! | Jun 10 19:32 |
| _Mutex_ | but their war history they used to teach was far from what really happend | Jun 10 19:32 |
| fewa | the big thing i hated about my history in school is they treated President Wilson as a moral hero | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | Or, well... Pearl habor | Jun 10 19:32 |
| schestowitz | *r | Jun 10 19:33 |
| fewa | when he was a racist fuck | Jun 10 19:33 |
| schestowitz | It's OK | Jun 10 19:33 |
| splosion_ | Good ol US. Nixon orders the bombing of Cambodia that kills hundreds of thousands of innocent people. The reaction: "Why didn't you tell Congress? Tsk." A couple of goons working for Nixon steal a few documents. Reaction? "HOLY SHIT IMPEACH HIM!!!1" | Jun 10 19:33 |
| schestowitz | It encourages loyaly | Jun 10 19:33 |
| schestowitz | Like many other useful illusions | Jun 10 19:33 |
| schestowitz | They make UsefulIdiots | Jun 10 19:33 |
| fewa | you have to read the japaneese history books to see how Wilson crushed asian-tolerance votes | Jun 10 19:33 |
| fewa | funny then, even japan was talking about tolerance | Jun 10 19:34 |
| schestowitz | You don't want bitter 10 y-os who look at shame at some ancestral beggage | Jun 10 19:34 |
| schestowitz | *baggage | Jun 10 19:34 |
| schestowitz | American-Japenese were put behind bars without charges IIRC | Jun 10 19:34 |
| schestowitz | Because they were "yellow" or "them" | Jun 10 19:34 |
| fewa | schestowitz, do you fallow David Suzuki? | Jun 10 19:35 |
| _Mutex_ | they were encamped here in aus too | Jun 10 19:35 |
| schestowitz | *LOL* Newspapers' Plan For Survival: Charge Money, Beat Up On Craigslist And Keep Repeating To Ourselves That We're Needed < http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090608/1724305171.shtml > | Jun 10 19:35 |
| fewa | he wrote about it in his autobiography | Jun 10 19:35 |
| schestowitz | fewa: nope, not really | Jun 10 19:36 |
| fewa | great biologist, has a show, The Nature of Things, on science | Jun 10 19:36 |
| fewa | one of the few shows run by a reasearch scientist | Jun 10 19:36 |
| *schestowitz reads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Suzuki | Jun 10 19:36 | |
| schestowitz | Oh. | Jun 10 19:36 |
| schestowitz | I know him | Jun 10 19:36 |
| _Mutex_ | I think he's a genitisists ? | Jun 10 19:36 |
| _Mutex_ | not sure | Jun 10 19:36 |
| splosion_ | I loved Crosbie Fitch's take on the newspaper problem. "Journalism isn't dead; newspapers are," (not a quote, just the jist). | Jun 10 19:37 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, yes | Jun 10 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Didn't know he spoke politics | Jun 10 19:37 |
| schestowitz | It's verboten | Jun 10 19:37 |
| schestowitz | For people on TV | Jun 10 19:37 |
| schestowitz | splosion_: yes, the whole model is kaput | Jun 10 19:37 |
| schestowitz | Just watch what happened to shoemakers | Jun 10 19:38 |
| schestowitz | Or people who sell licensed to run some binaries (not dead, yet) | Jun 10 19:38 |
| schestowitz | *ces | Jun 10 19:38 |
| EDavidBurg | schestowitz: you must spend a lot of time reading tech news sites :) | Jun 10 19:39 |
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| schestowitz | EDavidBurg: yes, for now | Jun 10 19:40 |
| _Mutex_ | I liked ITWires post aobut the space ship going to crash into the moon on the 10th, trouble is they posted it on the 11th !!! | Jun 10 19:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @AstralKnight Another critical hole in low quality Microsoft Excel: http://digg.com/d1tTLM?t | Jun 10 19:40 | |
| schestowitz | EDavidBurg: I finished writing my PhD thesis in 2006, but there are ways of dragging it | Jun 10 19:41 |
| schestowitz | Yahoo is chopped liver... http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/09/yahoo-marketing-svp-to-leave-company | Jun 10 19:42 |
| EDavidBurg | what's the PhD in? | Jun 10 19:42 |
| fewa | schestowitz, they do well in japan | Jun 10 19:42 |
| fewa | google cant budge yahoo in japan | Jun 10 19:42 |
| schestowitz | EDavidBurg: biomedical biophysics | Jun 10 19:43 |
| splosion_ | One good way to look at dying business models is to think if they didn't exist at all first. We have online news sites; do you think newspapers would take off? We have free and open source software; do you think paid software would be successful? | Jun 10 19:43 |
| schestowitz | I got it hard bound today | Jun 10 19:43 |
| schestowitz | FInal final deadline :-) | Jun 10 19:43 |
| schestowitz | They put the golden letting there with a typo of my surname! | Jun 10 19:43 |
| splosion_ | haha | Jun 10 19:43 |
| schestowitz | They had to redo it (their mistake, not mine) | Jun 10 19:43 |
| schestowitz | I have two trophies with my name carved on them with typos too | Jun 10 19:43 |
| splosion_ | Your name is notoriously hard to spell | Jun 10 19:44 |
| schestowitz | http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0705/gallery.toughest.names.to.spell/content.1.html | Jun 10 19:44 |
| _Mutex_ | and expensive on a trophie | Jun 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | Can't rip and replace | Jun 10 19:45 |
| amd-linux | for Germans, no problem to spell :-) | Jun 10 19:46 |
| _Mutex_ | PHILLIPS changed their name to PHILIPS to save on L's | Jun 10 19:46 |
| splosion_ | just run sed -e 's#Schiztowitz#Schestowitz#' on the trophies. Problem solved | Jun 10 19:47 |
| schestowitz | I always wonder about PHILIPS | Jun 10 19:47 |
| schestowitz | Cause some people still spell it the old name | Jun 10 19:47 |
| schestowitz | /name/way/ | Jun 10 19:47 |
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| splosion_ | My name is Philip. One L. The forms of ID I have seem to be confused about that, though | Jun 10 19:48 |
| schestowitz | splosion_: c'mon, why add that lame linsux humour | Jun 10 19:48 |
| *mib_iekc73 has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 10 19:48 | |
| schestowitz | Philips must be like 150- years old | Jun 10 19:49 |
| schestowitz | Without Philips unemployment would be a lot higher in Holland | Jun 10 19:49 |
| splosion_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#hAl_Microsoft_Topic_Ban Check out the latest comment | Jun 10 19:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is so weird. Microsoft's pet is putting money in a Linux distro, essentially. http://ping.fm/gIkbG | Jun 10 19:50 | |
| splosion_ | "I have now discovered that the above claims stem from article by IBM's Rob Weir (a blog cited regularly on openDocument article) and Groklaw (a blog with an entire section devoted to anti Office Open XML information). Apperantly this is an effort by someone in IBM (talking about biased) to influence edits on Wikipedia." | Jun 10 19:50 |
| fewa | thats what they did last time | Jun 10 19:51 |
| fewa | they just blamed that IBM did it first | Jun 10 19:51 |
| splosion_ | "A renowed anti-MS blog trying to remove wikipedians who edit MS related article because they do not like the information on wikipedia. Groklaw even suggest that ISO/IEC experts on documents formats are removed from editing wikipedia. How nice. The conflict of interest is now visible." | Jun 10 19:51 |
| splosion_ | Just boggles my mind | Jun 10 19:51 |
| schestowitz | MS said Groklaw was an IBM site | Jun 10 19:52 |
| _Mutex_ | slippery slope when you start to pick and choose who is allowed to give expert advice, and no i dont agree with incorrect info, but thats the problem with Wiki | Jun 10 19:53 |
| splosion_ | Cory Doctorow got into all sorts of trouble when he removed claims that his books didn't make any money. | Jun 10 19:54 |
| schestowitz | WHy did he care? | Jun 10 19:55 |
| schestowitz | if he made money, why is it important for him to crow about it as though perhaps he's promoting CC | Jun 10 19:56 |
| splosion_ | The claims in general were along the lines that giving away content for free is a doomed venture and anyone who does it is therefore a fool. they were quite trolly. | Jun 10 19:57 |
| *DaemonFC (n=ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 10 19:58 | |
| DaemonFC | http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=windows_and_linux_pcs&articleId=9134033&taxonomyId=64&intsrc=kc_top | Jun 10 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | Netbook shipments are up "in the triple-digit percentiles" over a year ago, said Brian Davis, vice-president of client systems for Tech Data. But he said Tech Data has seen "almost no" demand for Linux netbooks. | Jun 10 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | As a result, "we're not even sourcing any Linux-based netbooks anymore," Davis said. | Jun 10 19:58 |
| DaemonFC | the article goes on to cite that Carphone Warehouse (some company in the UK) has seen returns go as high as 1 in 5 units with Linux on them | Jun 10 19:59 |
| *DaemonFC wonders what their Windows XP unit returns are | Jun 10 19:59 | |
| schestowitz | There's the NPD liars | Jun 10 19:59 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft commissions those | Jun 10 20:00 |
| schestowitz | And pressure on OEMs | Jun 10 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Like ASUS | Jun 10 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Pays them for marketing, require that they drop and insult Linux | Jun 10 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | I thought so | Jun 10 20:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 'China's excuse for mandatory censorship software is "protecting children", just as in "free" countries.' http://ping.fm/7yD8L | Jun 10 20:00 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google CEO on Microsoft Bing: 'They do this about once a year' | Jun 10 20:00 | |
| schestowitz | They have not developerd it for YEARS | Jun 10 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | there's no data comparing returns to Windows | Jun 10 20:00 |
| schestowitz | ASUS dropped the ball | Jun 10 20:00 |
| DaemonFC | so you have no idea, even if 1 in 5 is the truth, of where Windows stacks up to that | Jun 10 20:00 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft said in 2008... they had them "tied up" | Jun 10 20:00 |
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| schestowitz | This is stuff for the EU Commission t definitely look it | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | It's strangulation technique | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | Dell says return rates are the same IIRC | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | Just MSI stands out | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | And there's the word from Canonical | Jun 10 20:01 |
| DaemonFC | the Windows netbook return rate could be that, or more, but they won't tell you how many people return those models | Jun 10 20:01 |
| schestowitz | Return rates are not absolute/relative #s either | Jun 10 20:01 |
| DaemonFC | could be hardware problems | Jun 10 20:02 |
| schestowitz | And MSI's Linux (SUSE) sucked for the purpose | Jun 10 20:02 |
| DaemonFC | totally unrelated to the OS | Jun 10 20:02 |
| schestowitz | They just threw some SUSE on it... hrdly with patches... and says "there! here, we have Linux too" | Jun 10 20:02 |
| _Mutex_ | return them for what in exchange ? | Jun 10 20:02 |
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| DaemonFC | well, I was wondering why the hell they would put Suse Linux on something small and simple meant for non-technical users | Jun 10 20:02 |
| DaemonFC | it did not make a lot of sense to me | Jun 10 20:03 |
| DaemonFC | Suse is like driving a tank, there's options to configure _everything_, which is not what you want for a desktop OS | Jun 10 20:03 |
| DaemonFC | much less for a netbook OS | Jun 10 20:03 |
| schestowitz | New signs that Microsoft sees its business model (the profitable part) dying too. http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_spins_off_licensing_business_to_launch_startup_47348787.html | Jun 10 20:03 |
| mib_9xnybk | I noticed that the front page of the Wall Street Journal mentioned an investigation of Google by the US justice department. I wonder how much M$ is behind it. | Jun 10 20:04 |
| mib_9xnybk | i'm aeshna23, btw. | Jun 10 20:04 |
| *BRBT is now known as Balrog | Jun 10 20:04 | |
| mib_9xnybk | i just don't do chatrooms. | Jun 10 20:04 |
| DaemonFC | Google should be investigated for some of the things it does | Jun 10 20:05 |
| schestowitz | aeshna23, new invetigation? | Jun 10 20:05 |
| DaemonFC | but yeah, as long as Microsoft is getting away with what it is, it does make you wonder | Jun 10 20:05 |
| schestowitz | Any URL yet? | Jun 10 20:05 |
| *Balrog is now known as Guest63515 | Jun 10 20:05 | |
| splosion_ | roy: I linked to that piece this morning! | Jun 10 20:05 |
| mib_9xnybk | perhaps Google should be investigated. I don't know if it was a new one, but it was on the front page. | Jun 10 20:05 |
| *Guest63515 is now known as Balrog_ | Jun 10 20:05 | |
| mib_9xnybk | how do i change my name? | Jun 10 20:06 |
| *Balrog_ is now known as Guest51031 | Jun 10 20:06 | |
| *Guest51031 is now known as Balrog | Jun 10 20:06 | |
| DaemonFC | Google does pay companies to make sure they only default to Google search | Jun 10 20:06 |
| DaemonFC | they bribe Firefox with tens of millions of dollars for that | Jun 10 20:06 |
| splosion_ | mib_9xnybk: type this: "/nick newnickname" | Jun 10 20:06 |
| mib_9xnybk | but Firefox is glad for the bribe. | Jun 10 20:06 |
| DaemonFC | and they do allow spyware makers to buy Google adwords | Jun 10 20:07 |
| *mib_9xnybk is now known as aeshna23 | Jun 10 20:07 | |
| DaemonFC | they should be investigated for both of those reasons | Jun 10 20:07 |
| aeshna23 | a Google monopoly is almost as worrisome as M$ | Jun 10 20:07 |
| DaemonFC | I think the FTC should force Google to investigate adword links that have been reported by users as spyware peddlers | Jun 10 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | in a timely fashion | Jun 10 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | and remove them | Jun 10 20:08 |
| splosion_ | http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8551784 Microsoft is bringing out its own Virus Scanner! | Jun 10 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | it's just unreasonable that Google gets to sell those things to anyone at all | Jun 10 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | splosion_: Yes, they're renaming Onecare to "Morro" | Jun 10 20:08 |
| DaemonFC | and making it freeware | Jun 10 20:09 |
| aeshna23 | big question: What attacks a search engine monopoly like FOSS attacks M$? | Jun 10 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | nothing so far | Jun 10 20:09 |
| _Mutex_ | after this doco ive always had big doubts about google, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F7SUWb9LPI&feature=related | Jun 10 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | the Open Directory Project was a total failure | Jun 10 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | DaemonFC: they should make it an offshoot | Jun 10 20:09 |
| _Mutex_ | a short clip | Jun 10 20:09 |
| schestowitz | Call it Morro Co. | Jun 10 20:09 |
| DaemonFC | mostly because the web is growing faster than a group of humans can effectively index it | Jun 10 20:10 |
| *mib_lwcvfl is now known as _Hicham_ | Jun 10 20:10 | |
| schestowitz | So basically, Morro is a paid-for missing feature of Windows | Jun 10 20:10 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: I find it funny that the virus problem has gorwn so out of control that Microsoft has finally given Windows a self-defense mechanism | Jun 10 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | it's about time too | Jun 10 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | between the antivirus cartels | Jun 10 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | and the spyware peddlers | Jun 10 20:11 |
| _Hicham_ | this self-defense mechanism have been developed by Sir DaemonFC | Jun 10 20:11 |
| _Hicham_ | alias Windows Master | Jun 10 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | but then again, they could also use it as an excuse to remove things that the user wants | Jun 10 20:11 |
| DaemonFC | that they don't want the user to have | Jun 10 20:12 |
| _Hicham_ | example, non drm'ed media | Jun 10 20:12 |
| schestowitz | Ick. Jim Finkle | Jun 10 20:12 |
| DaemonFC | sort of | Jun 10 20:12 |
| DaemonFC | like if I have AnyDVD HD to strip the Mackeral-Vision off my discs | Jun 10 20:12 |
| _Hicham_ | users are not allowed to have drm free media | Jun 10 20:12 |
| DaemonFC | they could decide that they'll remove that | Jun 10 20:12 |
| _Hicham_ | that is right | Jun 10 20:12 |
| _Hicham_ | it is their right to do that | Jun 10 20:13 |
| DaemonFC | bull fucking shit! | Jun 10 20:13 |
| _Hicham_ | welcome to drm era | Jun 10 20:13 |
| _Hicham_ | this will continue | Jun 10 20:13 |
| _Hicham_ | and will never stop | Jun 10 20:13 |
| _Hicham_ | u just have to make ur choice | Jun 10 20:13 |
| DaemonFC | well, Microsoft has hesitated to do things like this before, mainly because so many Windows users use stuff like that | Jun 10 20:13 |
| DaemonFC | they don't want to provoke millions of people into checking out Linux or a Mac | Jun 10 20:14 |
| _Hicham_ | but DaemonFC isn't a genuine Windows user | Jun 10 20:14 |
| _Hicham_ | neither a Linux one | Jun 10 20:14 |
| DaemonFC | or is he? | Jun 10 20:14 |
| aeshna23 | Mac is going to follow M$ lead on DRM. | Jun 10 20:14 |
| DaemonFC | muahahahahaha | Jun 10 20:14 |
| _Hicham_ | so he is lost in between | Jun 10 20:14 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I am on IE7, and I don't have any warning | Jun 10 20:15 |
| MinceR | aeshna23: you mean they're going to admit they've been supporting it all the time? :> | Jun 10 20:15 |
| DaemonFC | _Hicham_: http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6261/screenshot1a.png | Jun 10 20:16 |
| schestowitz | For crying out load... no Windows??? | Jun 10 20:16 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC is a forger | Jun 10 20:16 |
| schestowitz | *loud | Jun 10 20:16 |
| *DaemonFC is getting ready to build Linux 2.6.30 :P | Jun 10 20:16 | |
| splosion_ | http://browserforthebetter.com/index-htm.html eh? Has anyone seen this? | Jun 10 20:17 |
| DaemonFC | anyway, brb | Jun 10 20:17 |
| DaemonFC | and yes | Jun 10 20:17 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : what do u mean? | Jun 10 20:17 |
| *DaemonFC can build a kernel | Jun 10 20:17 | |
| schestowitz | Mandriva KDE looks a lot better | Jun 10 20:17 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 10 20:17 | |
| *schestowitz loves Qt | Jun 10 20:17 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: see the screenshot | Jun 10 20:17 |
| schestowitz | DamonFC crossed to the dark side | Jun 10 20:18 |
| schestowitz | *Dae | Jun 10 20:18 |
| splosion_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjUzzxAKs20 | Jun 10 20:18 |
| _Hicham_ | which dark side? | Jun 10 20:18 |
| schestowitz | Not Vista/Vista7 | Jun 10 20:18 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : did u test firefox 3.6? | Jun 10 20:18 |
| schestowitz | Not yet | Jun 10 20:18 |
| _Hicham_ | it doesn't have the scrolling issue | Jun 10 20:18 |
| schestowitz | The press says nothing about it | Jun 10 20:19 |
| schestowitz | It mentions 4.0 | Jun 10 20:19 |
| _Hicham_ | here is the link | Jun 10 20:19 |
| schestowitz | This site posts a lot of silly things: Are Apple's Price Drops Aimed at Linux? < http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4431.html > | Jun 10 20:19 |
| _Mutex_ | 4.0 historically software version 4.0 has been a desaster :) | Jun 10 20:20 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/nightly/latest-trunk/firefox-3.6a1pre.en-US.linux-i686.tar.bz2 | Jun 10 20:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] DRM wants to be in Linux (again): http://ping.fm/AJoJG | Jun 10 20:20 | |
| _Hicham_ | I have tested it | Jun 10 20:20 |
| _Hicham_ | no slow scrolling | Jun 10 20:20 |
| _Hicham_ | so u can be happy about BN | Jun 10 20:20 |
| _Hicham_ | IE behaves weird with mibbit ajax chat client | Jun 10 20:21 |
| EDavidBurg | Apple's price drops are aimed at people are poor and they still want business | Jun 10 20:21 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFC : did u succeed in mounting the udf volume under Fedora? | Jun 10 20:22 |
| schestowitz | "Debra + Ian = Debian." http://gadgetwise.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/qa-whats-in-a-linux-name/ Wasn't it Deborah or just Debbie? | Jun 10 20:22 |
| MinceR | what have people who want business have to do with crApple? :> | Jun 10 20:22 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : they are divorced now | Jun 10 20:22 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: 6.0 too (Vista, not MSDOS) | Jun 10 20:22 |
| _Hicham_ | people who want serious business, must consult DaemonFC | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: IE is not a problem | Jun 10 20:23 |
| _Hicham_ | he is an expert in finance | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | Few people use it | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | Like single-digit (percentile) some months | Jun 10 20:23 |
| _Mutex_ | agree schestowitz | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | They get a message telling them to upgrade to Linux | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | In all pages | Jun 10 20:23 |
| _Hicham_ | well, I don't | Jun 10 20:23 |
| schestowitz | No? | Jun 10 20:24 |
| _Hicham_ | no | Jun 10 20:24 |
| schestowitz | Which version? | Jun 10 20:24 |
| _Hicham_ | IE7 | Jun 10 20:24 |
| schestowitz | See page source | Jun 10 20:24 |
| _Hicham_ | ok | Jun 10 20:24 |
| schestowitz | Maybe it's not compat with ie7+ | Jun 10 20:24 |
| Balrog | _Hicham_: AFAICT it's only IE6 | Jun 10 20:24 |
| _Hicham_ | is it some javascript? | Jun 10 20:24 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: since when are they divorced? | Jun 10 20:24 |
| schestowitz | I heard a year ago that someone from a forum I'm in saw them in a restaurant | Jun 10 20:25 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : I don't know when | Jun 10 20:25 |
| Balrog | if I change the user agent to IE6, the warnings appear | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | Maybe she used Debian | Jun 10 20:25 |
| _Hicham_ | but they are divorced | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | He used Ubuntu | Jun 10 20:25 |
| _Hicham_ | for sure | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | And then went to the sun | Jun 10 20:25 |
| _Hicham_ | it is sad | Jun 10 20:25 |
| _Hicham_ | the base couple for Debian is divorced | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, Debian was the seeds of a romantic stgory | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | Not anymore | Jun 10 20:25 |
| schestowitz | Maybe the Deb cheated on the Ian or the Ian cheated on the Deb | Jun 10 20:26 |
| _Hicham_ | maybe he used rpm | Jun 10 20:26 |
| schestowitz | Slept with a Badger or a Wathog | Jun 10 20:26 |
| schestowitz | *rthog | Jun 10 20:26 |
| _Hicham_ | rpmian? | Jun 10 20:26 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, that would break the relationship | Jun 10 20:26 |
| schestowitz | They should have gone to alien for consulting | Jun 10 20:26 |
| *Python132O has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jun 10 20:27 | |
| schestowitz | ERROR: DEB-IAN, dpendency hell. Quitting. ERROR(99) | Jun 10 20:27 |
| _Hicham_ | they should consult DaemonFC | Jun 10 20:27 |
| schestowitz | Naaa. | Jun 10 20:27 |
| _Hicham_ | he can get them back | Jun 10 20:28 |
| schestowitz | .He'd probably lust for Ian | Jun 10 20:28 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linux-noob.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3806 | Jun 10 20:29 |
| schestowitz | OpenSolaris might be at the end of the road | Jun 10 20:29 |
| _Hicham_ | of course | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | So Murdock's job as CTO is at risk in Oracle | Jun 10 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | since Oracle uses RHEL | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Which is better | Jun 10 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | he will get back a new Progeny | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | No point in Oracle paying devs to write Solaris | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Maybe merge it | Jun 10 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | and give Debian the power that it needs | Jun 10 20:30 |
| schestowitz | Still, leading to redundancy | Jun 10 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | giving a RedHat like model will boost it | Jun 10 20:31 |
| _Hicham_ | i mean for Debian | Jun 10 20:31 |
| _Hicham_ | a commercial branch | Jun 10 20:31 |
| _Hicham_ | and an open source branch | Jun 10 20:31 |
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| _Mutex_ | I dont know about solaris, i expect they will continue to support it, it has quite a large user base, | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | "Commercial" is advertising | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | It's a perceptual label | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | Vista RTM was called "commericial" | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | Accidentally deleting people's files and all | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | Same with Leopard | Jun 10 20:33 |
| schestowitz | "Commercial..." | Jun 10 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | great virtualization tuto | Jun 10 20:34 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, like in commercials... illusionary stuff. Enterprise may sound better! Captains Log. | Jun 10 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | commercial, yes | Jun 10 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | to earn money | Jun 10 20:34 |
| schestowitz | Commerce | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | open source needs big funding | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | of course | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | who will pay the devs? | Jun 10 20:35 |
| schestowitz | Free software needs funding | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Jun 10 20:35 |
| schestowitz | Not that whole hybrid/'open core' BS | Jun 10 20:35 |
| schestowitz | It's a mess | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | who will pay? | Jun 10 20:35 |
| schestowitz | And funding everywhere is down, not just for 'OSS' | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | look at Debian | Jun 10 20:35 |
| schestowitz | IBM and Intel make tons of money from FS | Jun 10 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | all devs are having another base job | Jun 10 20:36 |
| schestowitz | But you can't FORCE them to pay | Jun 10 20:36 |
| _Mutex_ | I agree, it is a bit confusing, | Jun 10 20:36 |
| schestowitz | They contribute where it helps them | Jun 10 20:36 |
| schestowitz | PR and use | Jun 10 20:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It's impressive that the Murdoch press says something positive about Linux: http://ping.fm/XJHuj | Jun 10 20:36 | |
| _Hicham_ | the RedHat way is the best | Jun 10 20:36 |
| _Hicham_ | great funding, great job | Jun 10 20:36 |
| splosion_ | Software as a service. Seems to be working for Red Hat. But I don't see the Debian issue as being one. Debian has been coming along nicely for years with mostly hobbyist devs | Jun 10 20:37 |
| _Hicham_ | not with the OpenSSL scandal | Jun 10 20:37 |
| _Hicham_ | not when their servers got hacked | Jun 10 20:37 |
| _Hicham_ | these are serious issue | Jun 10 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | issues | Jun 10 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | and the cause? | Jun 10 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | all devs are hobbyists | Jun 10 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | if they were full time employees, that would never happen | Jun 10 20:38 |
| schestowitz | Nor accurate | Jun 10 20:38 |
| schestowitz | IMHO | Jun 10 20:38 |
| aeshna23 | full time employees never make mistakes. that's why microsoft is so secure. | Jun 10 20:38 |
| schestowitz | Debian uses a lot of help from full-time devs | Jun 10 20:39 |
| splosion_ | The SSL scandal was hilariously overblown. Do you honestly think such a thing wouldn't have happened if they had been paid? Maybe yes, maybe no, but cock-ups happen in proproietary projects all the time | Jun 10 20:39 |
| schestowitz | From Intel, IBM, Red Hat, Mozilla, etc. | Jun 10 20:39 |
| schestowitz | Debian just needs to maintain some packages, also for the sake of others (reciprocity) | Jun 10 20:39 |
| schestowitz | So Debian is merely a pool of developers helping a much broader machinery | Jun 10 20:39 |
| schestowitz | Even Apple uses some of these 'freebies' | Jun 10 20:40 |
| schestowitz | SSL, Samba, KHTML | Jun 10 20:40 |
| schestowitz | Does Apple use OpenSSL? | Jun 10 20:40 |
| _Mutex_ | full time professional people make mistakes all the time, the professional will not allow the product to go past him until the mistake is corrected | Jun 10 20:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Had Opera gone Free software, many Linux users might switch from Firefox. http://ping.fm/N3FAm | Jun 10 20:41 | |
| _Hicham_ | the QA is stronger for fulltime employees | Jun 10 20:41 |
| splosion_ | The number of bug patches made by *all* software developers tells me that there are some bugs that are beyond the developer's ability to predict | Jun 10 20:41 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft is a bad example | Jun 10 20:41 |
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| _Hicham_ | changed to Firefox 3.5beta4 | Jun 10 20:44 |
| *_Hicham_ feels much better now | Jun 10 20:44 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Murdock reads and weeps? "OpenSolaris: how long will it be with us?" < http://ping.fm/hp93O > | Jun 10 20:45 | |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz is gonna be married soon | Jun 10 20:46 |
| schestowitz | Insurance Companies Profit Twice from Smokers < http://www.prwatch.org/node/8406 > | Jun 10 20:46 |
| _Mutex_ | paid employees have a vested interest in creating something that is both popular, and that sells and works or they will not continue to be paid. | Jun 10 20:46 |
| splosion_ | _Hicham_: are you using *nix or Windows? | Jun 10 20:46 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: maybe in 5 years. When I get more bored :-) | Jun 10 20:46 |
| _Hicham_ | he will have tons of small kids labeled bn1, bn2, ...etc | Jun 10 20:46 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: met your spouse yet? | Jun 10 20:47 |
| _Hicham_ | splosion_ : no, just plain Vista | Jun 10 20:47 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : no | Jun 10 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Imagine what.. | Jun 10 20:47 |
| _Hicham_ | what? | Jun 10 20:47 |
| schestowitz | If in nature animal offsprings were made to be mated when grown older | Jun 10 20:47 |
| splosion_ | _Hicham_: what's the RAM usage you get from firefox 3.5beta4? | Jun 10 20:48 |
| schestowitz | It's a little unnatural, ain't it? | Jun 10 20:48 |
| schestowitz | There are many traditions that conflict with human nature, IMHO | Jun 10 20:48 |
| schestowitz | BTW, my good friend has just gotten engaged | Jun 10 20:48 |
| schestowitz | Another one is gonna have a child soon | Jun 10 20:48 |
| _Hicham_ | splosion_ : 51 Mb | Jun 10 20:48 |
| schestowitz | I'm still lagging behind ;-) | Jun 10 20:48 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : u should get married | Jun 10 20:49 |
| schestowitz | Not yet | Jun 10 20:49 |
| schestowitz | Life expectancy is high these days | Jun 10 20:49 |
| _Mutex_ | its quite routine in industry for a software company to ship one version of a system, to one client install it and run it basically for as long as that plant exists without patches or modification or failure | Jun 10 20:49 |
| schestowitz | You only live once, you only live single/unmarried once | Jun 10 20:49 |
| _Mutex_ | in fact the customer insists on it | Jun 10 20:49 |
| splosion_ | _Hicham_: check it again in a few hours. Mine starts off like that too but creeps up to... 246.121 mb now | Jun 10 20:49 |
| schestowitz | After that you are legally "married" or "divorced" :-p | Jun 10 20:49 |
| _Mutex_ | or widowed | Jun 10 20:50 |
| _Mutex_ | tri-state | Jun 10 20:50 |
| schestowitz | He notes that "despite a spectacular about-face on climate change in 2007 by News Corp's chairman Rupert Murdoch, no media group can match the Murdoch press for consistently fomenting global warming skepticism and arguing against climate change mitigation measures." http://www.prwatch.org/node/8404 | Jun 10 20:51 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: yeah, I forgot about that. It's more rare | Jun 10 20:51 |
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| fewa | _Mutex_, if it aint broke, dont fix it | Jun 10 20:52 |
| _Mutex_ | and ofcourse you can be divorced and married and widowed all at the same time | Jun 10 20:52 |
| _Mutex_ | fewa exactly, QA says "doing the right things, RIGHT, first time" | Jun 10 20:53 |
| fewa | _Mutex_, look at debian stable | Jun 10 20:53 |
| fewa | they extensively work on it before releasing it | Jun 10 20:53 |
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| _Mutex_ | good, and I have not tried debian yet, | Jun 10 20:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ugly stories of propaganda and AstroTurfing (not in IT): Toxic PR < http://ping.fm/e9MDZ > | Jun 10 20:55 | |
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| schestowitz | wb, ThistleWeb | Jun 10 21:01 |
| ThistleWeb | hey schestowitz ty | Jun 10 21:02 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm trying to get my head round why Apple do some things | Jun 10 21:02 |
| schestowitz | We did well at correct Wikipedia, well... starting at least | Jun 10 21:02 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: what did Apple do now? | Jun 10 21:03 |
| trmanco | http://twitter.com/steveballmer | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | Apart from dropping costs? | Jun 10 21:03 |
| ThistleWeb | the /. story about removing references to ZFS | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: that account can be purged | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | If fake | Jun 10 21:03 |
| *schestowitz looks | Jun 10 21:03 | |
| schestowitz | They have no ruled | Jun 10 21:03 |
| ThistleWeb | ok, they plan to do something, then change their minds, that's fine | Jun 10 21:03 |
| trmanco | it is fake | Jun 10 21:03 |
| ThistleWeb | that happens all the time | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | After a fake Kanye spoke cra* to over a million followers | Jun 10 21:03 |
| ThistleWeb | but why rewrite history and try to pretend it never happened? | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: it's for losers | Jun 10 21:03 |
| schestowitz | Living in the shadow or someone reputable | Jun 10 21:04 |
| schestowitz | Think along the lines of SCOsoft shill Dan Lyons | Jun 10 21:04 |
| schestowitz | aka fake <some famous guy> | Jun 10 21:04 |
| ThistleWeb | where's the harm in leaving all the ZFS stuff on the site and saying "we won't be doing ZFS for reasons we can't disclose, further announcements in due course" | Jun 10 21:04 |
| ThistleWeb | I don't get it | Jun 10 21:04 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: good profile | Jun 10 21:04 |
| schestowitz | It shows the #1 threat | Jun 10 21:05 |
| schestowitz | One twit, one rival | Jun 10 21:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The IMF Accountability Moment < http://ping.fm/M0EsA > | Jun 10 21:05 | |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: ah, that. I saw it earlier | Jun 10 21:05 |
| ThistleWeb | it's like trying to pretend that every Apple brainstorming session only produced 100% good ideas that made it into products | Jun 10 21:05 |
| schestowitz | I personally enjoy seeing Apple h/w going bellyup | Jun 10 21:06 |
| schestowitz | The fans have spread the illusion that Apple 'makes' (chooses) good h/w | Jun 10 21:06 |
| ThistleWeb | that's bullshit, most brainstorming sessions produce 99% shit, the other 1% decent ideas that may go somewhere after further thought and research | Jun 10 21:06 |
| schestowitz | Brainstorms sucj | Jun 10 21:06 |
| ThistleWeb | thats the point of brainstorming, so people can throw whatever comes to them out there | Jun 10 21:07 |
| ThistleWeb | most is shit | Jun 10 21:07 |
| schestowitz | A colleague of mine says he though of his fairly revolutionary idea (published over 100 papers) while sitting on the loo | Jun 10 21:07 |
| ThistleWeb | but the more free people are, the more gems will be found | Jun 10 21:07 |
| schestowitz | Brainstorm indeed | Jun 10 21:07 |
| schestowitz | More like Sh*tstorm | Jun 10 21:07 |
| ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 10 21:07 |
| schestowitz | I look into the crystal ball | Jun 10 21:07 |
| schestowitz | I gaze into the magic balls.. | Jun 10 21:08 |
| schestowitz | I read tea leaves | Jun 10 21:08 |
| ThistleWeb | the internet has infinite ways of archiving events, no company can censor them all | Jun 10 21:08 |
| schestowitz | :I saw Uranus opening up on the west" | Jun 10 21:08 |
| schestowitz | I see venus coming closer to Mars" | Jun 10 21:08 |
| schestowitz | "It must mean you're pregnant" | Jun 10 21:08 |
| ThistleWeb | I find it odd that some things have loads of pages . sites devoted to the story, yet the source company has ZERO on it, after it's been purged | Jun 10 21:08 |
| schestowitz | The mambo-jumbo things are truly unnerving] | Jun 10 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | my 100% accurate, very scientific moist finger in the air style disputes your methods | Jun 10 21:09 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: which events? | Jun 10 21:09 |
| ThistleWeb | Apple's ZFS is just the latest | Jun 10 21:09 |
| schestowitz | Wikipedia will be helpful for postmortem | Jun 10 21:09 |
| schestowitz | People can now see all the nonsense shils like hAl injected into it and when | Jun 10 21:10 |
| ThistleWeb | Phorm / BT is another | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | Yeah.. | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | News about tit today.. | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/10/phorm_fundraising/ | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | /s/tit/it/ | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | Yikes. bad typo | Jun 10 21:10 |
| schestowitz | . | Jun 10 21:10 |
| ThistleWeb | Phorm should be illegal | Jun 10 21:10 |
| ThistleWeb | anyone who saddles up with them should also be punished | Jun 10 21:11 |
| _Goblin | as long as its "opt in" then I wouldnt have a problem... | Jun 10 21:11 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, opt-in is what they seek to avoid | Jun 10 21:12 |
| ThistleWeb | for the obvious reason that bobody would | Jun 10 21:12 |
| _Goblin | and that I think highlights its true nature | Jun 10 21:12 |
| Balrog | problem with opt in is that they'll make a sneaky way for people to do that without knowing | Jun 10 21:13 |
| _Goblin | true... | Jun 10 21:13 |
| schestowitz | Phorm.. | Jun 10 21:14 |
| schestowitz | We sell your | Jun 10 21:14 |
| _Goblin | an opt out to opt in...if you see what I mean... | Jun 10 21:14 |
| schestowitz | "We sell you" | Jun 10 21:14 |
| schestowitz | "Whether you like it or not" | Jun 10 21:14 |
| schestowitz | The cost of privacy.. and Google should know | Jun 10 21:14 |
| schestowitz | People only start caring when they hear about ID DBs getting abused to rake muck about celebs | Jun 10 21:15 |
| ThistleWeb | we need a Firefox Phormblock addon | Jun 10 21:15 |
| schestowitz | Or Slated.org | Jun 10 21:15 |
| schestowitz | With DePhormed | Jun 10 21:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. This is unnerving. People go overseas to kill remaining wildlife for food and fun. http://ping.fm/lu5jn | Jun 10 21:15 | |
| ThistleWeb | something which identifies itself clearly on the server as a Phorm block | Jun 10 21:15 |
| schestowitz | THE UK government supports Phorm | Jun 10 21:15 |
| schestowitz | The European CCommission confronted Clown et al over it | Jun 10 21:16 |
| ThistleWeb | the EU are questioning the UK govets approach with Phorm | Jun 10 21:16 |
| schestowitz | The UK elites LOVE the idea of having list of IDs with corresponding profiles | Jun 10 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Makes good BI for advertisers but also sellers | Jun 10 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Be ready to be charged more for plane ticket if they know your IP is a 'wealthy one' | Jun 10 21:17 |
| ThistleWeb | I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft were found to be turning a blind eye to US Govt / CIA / FBI / Homeland Security trojans on Windows PCs in return for no anti-trust action | Jun 10 21:17 |
| fewa | https://www.dephormation.org.uk/index.php?page=3 | Jun 10 21:17 |
| ThistleWeb | it kinda encourages the US govt to help Microsoft keep their monopoly, keep people on PCs which are infectable | Jun 10 21:18 |
| ThistleWeb | the more who leave Windows, the smaller the number of peeps being spied on is | Jun 10 21:19 |
| trmanco | wtf | Jun 10 21:19 |
| trmanco | I'm being spammed | Jun 10 21:20 |
| Balrog | trmanco: ??!?!?! | Jun 10 21:21 |
| trmanco | Balrog, somebody tried to spam me through DCC | Jun 10 21:22 |
| Balrog | argh. happened to me before | Jun 10 21:22 |
| trmanco | bringing up a gigante filename with aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | Jun 10 21:22 |
| trmanco | but a lot more | Jun 10 21:22 |
| Balrog | argh. | Jun 10 21:22 |
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| ThistleWeb | DCC? | Jun 10 21:24 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 10 21:24 |
| ThistleWeb | I was asking what DCC is | Jun 10 21:24 |
| trmanco | oh | Jun 10 21:24 |
| *ThistleWeb is still kinda new to IRC | Jun 10 21:25 | |
| trmanco | file transfer through irc | Jun 10 21:25 |
| ThistleWeb | ahh k | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > Hmm. It's ours, but I didn't ask the guy doing it to add folks I | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > purportedly follow. Thanks for telling me. I'll let him know. | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > I did say he could get it to make sure no one else did, and I said it | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > was OK to put links there. | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | > | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Fakers and legal actions there lately... | Jun 10 21:25 |
| schestowitz | See the Kanye West situation too. And... | Jun 10 21:25 |
| trmanco | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Client-to-Client | Jun 10 21:25 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah I spotted that in my XChat settings but never used it yet | Jun 10 21:25 |
| trmanco | brb | Jun 10 21:29 |
| trmanco | back | Jun 10 21:31 |
| ThistleWeb | wb | Jun 10 21:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] France suspends Three Strikes -- declared unconstitutional | Jun 10 21:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A 72-year-old Texas great-grandmother gets tasered by police http://ping.fm/oZILD | Jun 10 21:35 | |
| _Mutex_ | that made the aussie news as well, what can i say, its shocking !!! | Jun 10 21:36 |
| ThistleWeb | lol @ shocking | Jun 10 21:42 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: your friend worries that His Precious will lose the thunder to open source, which he purports to like: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10259176-16.html | Jun 10 21:47 |
| schestowitz | _Mutex_: Did the cops enjoy it, you think? Maybe they wanted to see if it works and using it where life is less valuable made sense. | Jun 10 21:48 |
| ThistleWeb | theres a common misconception that just because someone is old, that they are also nice, well behaved, well manored people | Jun 10 21:49 |
| ThistleWeb | like any age group, it varies from person to person. There are asshats in all walks of life | Jun 10 21:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] More bad news? " #Microsoft to discontinue MS Money" http://bit.ly/u3HTS #windows #vista | Jun 10 21:50 | |
| MinceR | schestowitz: he loves it so much he wants it to fail, just like crApple does | Jun 10 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, he started trolling "open source" | Jun 10 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Like, "is it dying?" [gimme traffic | Jun 10 21:52 |
| schestowitz | Remember this: | Jun 10 21:52 |
| schestowitz | He's the one in OSI who welcomed MS | Jun 10 21:52 |
| schestowitz | And they ruined the open souce brand | Jun 10 21:52 |
| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070821170512281 | Jun 10 21:53 |
| MinceR | actually i don't see a lot of hostility in this article | Jun 10 21:53 |
| MinceR | asay is in OSI? | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Matt Asay writes that he can't understand why Microsoft's submission of its Microsoft Permissive License is not being welcomed by one and all with open arms at OSI. So I thought I'd try to explain it. "" | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | [ Why, Why, Why OSI? - Updated] | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: not anymore, no | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | " See? It doesn't say OSI can't discriminate. It can if it wants to, as far as the OSD is concerned. So Microsoft's representatives and defenders need to stop twisting the definition's words. " | Jun 10 21:53 |
| trmanco | redesigned addons site -> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/ | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | "So the question becomes, should OSI discriminate? Will a farmer let a fox into the henhouse if the fox puts on a chicken suit?" | Jun 10 21:53 |
| schestowitz | "The farmer's chickens need him to protect them, because chickens don't win battles with foxes. The fox has all the fangs in this picture. So a farmer naturally will think ahead and take steps to try to prevent such battles on his watch. The devious fox may still figure out a way to slip inside and kill some chickens, but at least the farmer wasn't the one who held open the door." | Jun 10 21:54 |
| schestowitz | So Matt Asay is essentially the one who says, "naaa. come on, let the fox in" | Jun 10 21:54 |
| schestowitz | But maybe it's because MS takes him to lunch and stuff | Jun 10 21:54 |
| schestowitz | "So approving a Microsoft license brings all that with it. Is that your intent? It's a serious responsibility now on OSI's shoulders to make sure the patent commons stays peaceful and isn't misused. It's not just about a license. There is all that goes with being on the approved list." | Jun 10 21:55 |
| MinceR | they don't need to twist the definition's words because it doesn't say anything about patents | Jun 10 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Conclusion: | Jun 10 21:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mozilla has redesigned the Addons website -> http://is.gd/Y3rM | Jun 10 21:55 | |
| schestowitz | Don't let Apple fans occupy OSI | Jun 10 21:55 |
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| trmanco | http://www.novell.com/prblogs/?p=640 | Jun 10 21:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @_Goblin renaming it Microsoft Debt, no doubt | Jun 10 22:00 | |
| *EDavidBurg has quit ("leaving") | Jun 10 22:01 | |
| schestowitz | Crooks who ruin the Web for profit (yet, yet another group): http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/10/killing-bad-search-results-with-reputation-management | Jun 10 22:01 |
| trmanco | http://www.youtube.com/html5 | Jun 10 22:02 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: pathetic Novell | Jun 10 22:02 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they can sell mugs.. or t-shirts, like SCO | Jun 10 22:03 |
| schestowitz | "You must have an HTML5 capable browser. " | Jun 10 22:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is how Google 'innovates' outside (and sometimes inside) search. It just buys. http://ping.fm/RCMiP | Jun 10 22:05 | |
| ThistleWeb | the trureputation peeps will get plenty of potential customers while it's more profitable to write off illegal / immoral practices as a business expense | Jun 10 22:05 |
| schestowitz | heh. | Jun 10 22:05 |
| schestowitz | Or Kroes -imposed fine | Jun 10 22:06 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Jun 10 22:06 |
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| ThistleWeb | when it costs them less to pay for it and keep doing it, than it does to stop it, nothing will change | Jun 10 22:07 |
| ThistleWeb | it'd be nice to have a law which states any change of name etc must be displayed permanently and visibly on their website | Jun 10 22:08 |
| ThistleWeb | so rebranding always carries the snail trail | Jun 10 22:08 |
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| ThistleWeb | any company with a history page of disgraced companies is likely to be another roll of the same dice | Jun 10 22:09 |
| *mib_cfnh6r has quit (Client Quit) | Jun 10 22:09 | |
| schestowitz | Why Normal People Don't Use Linux < http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10012914o-2000332346b,00.htm > | Jun 10 22:10 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: Yes,Blackwater is a recent example | Jun 10 22:10 |
| schestowitz | There are several others I saw recently | Jun 10 22:11 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, mediasentry | Jun 10 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | Phorm did not rename like I thought. | Jun 10 22:12 |
| schestowitz | Hey, ThatGuy_ | Jun 10 22:13 |
| trmanco | another dead MS product -> Microsoft to discontinue MS Money::http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10261742-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 | Jun 10 22:13 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] AMD Gains Market Share from Intel: http://is.gd/Y5VW | Jun 10 22:15 | |
| schestowitz | ASUS fail. http://blog.thedebianuser.org/?p=314 "First off: this is no ad, nor a bying recommendation. In fact, I couldn’t really recommend this card. Not for Unix/Linux, and even more so not for Windows." | Jun 10 22:16 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: ta | Jun 10 22:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I wonder if the law-enforced snail trail on rebranding would be fought on the same principle of a defendants past crimes not being disclosed at trial on the basis that they are on trial for only one crime | Jun 10 22:16 |
| *schestowitz looks for coverage not from the MS PR puppet | Jun 10 22:16 | |
| ThistleWeb | the fact that someone has 20 past convictions for mugging does not mean he's guilty of this mugging | Jun 10 22:17 |
| ThatGuy_ | Yes? | Jun 10 22:17 |
| *mib_uwa7ou has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Jun 10 22:18 | |
| schestowitz | *LOL | Jun 10 22:19 |
| schestowitz | AOL and Comcast Top the MSN Money 2009 Customer Service Hall of Shame < http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/jun09/06-10MSMoneyHOSPR.mspx > | Jun 10 22:19 |
| _Mutex_ | dont you know there is only ONE mugger on the plannet , he's just very busy\ | Jun 10 22:19 |
| schestowitz | So they mock companies and declare the product dead | Jun 10 22:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft has run out of Money http://ping.fm/ZjAu3 about 15 dead MS projects in half a year | Jun 10 22:20 | |
| ThistleWeb | a bit like Santa, who I've never understood is acceptable; an strange old man encouraged to come into kids bedrooms at night unattended and empty his sack......and this is used as a reward? | Jun 10 22:20 |
| ThatGuy_ | Yes, schestowitz? | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | No, sorry | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | I'm not engaging with this stuff. | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | <ThatGuy_> Is this Roy Schestowitz? | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | <schestowitz> yes | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | <ThatGuy_> Hey. I'm from Linsux.org. We're having a few issues, and the admin was wondering if you would mind coming into our IRC and talking to them privately. ##linsuxchat | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | <ThatGuy_> Is that a yes or a no? We really would like to resolve the issues that have come up. | Jun 10 22:21 |
| schestowitz | Tell your buddies to grow up | Jun 10 22:21 |
| ThatGuy_ | So, instead of coming and talking to us, like adults, which is what we're asking, you tell me to tell THEM to "grow up?" Why don't you come over and just talk with the admins. Let's get this resolved. | Jun 10 22:22 |
| ThistleWeb | AOL have been a trainwreck of a company for a long time, it's only a matter of "when" not "if" they collapse | Jun 10 22:23 |
| ThatGuy_ | We have disagreements, yes, but I think the "disagreement" has gone way too far and we should resolve this like mature adults. | Jun 10 22:23 |
| ThistleWeb | my first ISP was AOL because I didn't know any better, their customer service sucked REAL bad then, and that was apparently the new and improved AOL | Jun 10 22:23 |
| ThistleWeb | it seems nothing has really improved since I left them | Jun 10 22:24 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Article on Openbytes: "No money in MS Money?" http://bit.ly/197YqE #windows #vista #microsoft #ms | Jun 10 22:25 | |
| ThistleWeb | your company is doomed when the approch is "there's always a new sucker to replace a disgruntled ex-customer", sooner or later your reputation catches up with you and you run out of new suckers | Jun 10 22:25 |
| _Mutex_ | MYOB has the market tied up, at least here in Australia | Jun 10 22:26 |
| _Mutex_ | The only place that matters LOL | Jun 10 22:26 |
| ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 10 22:26 |
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| ThatGuy_ | schestowitz : So, you won't come and be "grown up" as you tell us to be. Our staff is reaching out to you to resolve the issues that are at hand between your community and ours. But, instead, you are just waving us off and refusing to work with us. Am I correct? | Jun 10 22:30 |
| ThistleWeb | ThatGuy_: Roy puts all his IRC stuff in public, on the record | Jun 10 22:30 |
| ThistleWeb | you're asking him to a conversation off the record | Jun 10 22:31 |
| ThistleWeb | that's his issue | Jun 10 22:31 |
| ThistleWeb | off the record, people can claim all sorts | Jun 10 22:31 |
| ThistleWeb | on the record people can see for themselves | Jun 10 22:31 |
| ThatGuy_ | That's because we're looking for a private conversation. We don't need 20 other people chiming in everytime we try to talk. | Jun 10 22:31 |
| ThatGuy_ | He is free to save the logs, just as we will. | Jun 10 22:31 |
| _Mutex_ | like there are actually "issues" to resolve | Jun 10 22:32 |
| ThistleWeb | every time anyone PMs Roy he pastes it into the channel so it's on the record | Jun 10 22:32 |
| ThatGuy_ | At the same time, our main admin cannot come in here to talk because he has been banned. When he heard that Roy was in here, he tried to join to talk to him, but can't | Jun 10 22:32 |
| ThatGuy_ | _Mutex_ This is what I mean. I'm not attacking you, just an example. If we try to talk to Roy, there will, undoubtedly be several other people who want to chime in. | Jun 10 22:33 |
| ThatGuy_ | That's fine. He's free to copy and paste everything. We are not trying to hide anything. | Jun 10 22:33 |
| _Mutex_ | thats right, kinda what public chat rooms are about, chatting in public. | Jun 10 22:33 |
| ThatGuy_ | Our Admin staff wants this stuff dealt with and done with. | Jun 10 22:34 |
| schestowitz | Your 'admin stuff' published things claiming I'm trassexeual and stuff | Jun 10 22:34 |
| schestowitz | Your admin can fsck himserlf | Jun 10 22:34 |
| ThatGuy_ | _Mutex_ The only problem is that it can be more difficult to take care and settle things when everyone wants to chime in | Jun 10 22:34 |
| schestowitz | And your libellous stuff would have you sued had you had real named | Jun 10 22:34 |
| schestowitz | And not some half-dead avatars | Jun 10 22:34 |
| ThatGuy_ | schestowitz : You really want to take this route? | Jun 10 22:35 |
| schestowitz | I'm not going to spend time on that 'linsux' crap | Jun 10 22:35 |
| _Mutex_ | so your asking someone outside of your web site to come on and settle something that is under your control on YOUR web site, | Jun 10 22:35 |
| fewa | ThatGuy_, your an asshole | Jun 10 22:35 |
| ThatGuy_ | You get upset because we say something bad about you. Okay, I understand. Our site is highly satarical. | Jun 10 22:35 |
| schestowitz | You're clogging up the channel with noise that reduces signal | Jun 10 22:35 |
| _Mutex_ | and you wonder why he does not want to do that ? gee ,, go figure | Jun 10 22:35 |
| fewa | ThatGuy_, and you have no beef to talk about, except what you have created | Jun 10 22:35 |
| ThatGuy_ | You can't sue a satarical site for saying stuff like that. Just like you can't sue the Onion or SNL. | Jun 10 22:35 |
| fewa | ThatGuy_, your site is not satire | Jun 10 22:35 |
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| ThatGuy_ | Except that our staff is being threatened over and over. | Jun 10 22:36 |
| ThatGuy_ | Really? | Jun 10 22:36 |
| ThatGuy_ | Legal and physical threats. He's used to that, but this is getting worse | Jun 10 22:36 |
| _Mutex_ | thanks for clearing that up for me ThatGuy | Jun 10 22:36 |
| ThatGuy_ | Our TOS states that our site is satarical | Jun 10 22:36 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | I saw the new Macbook Pro lineup just before I got on here, all I have to say is who the F* do they think they're kinding? | Jun 10 22:37 |
| ThatGuy_ | and that is is for entertainment purposes. | Jun 10 22:37 |
| ThatGuy_ | At the same time, schestowitz : You are allowed to post what you want on your site. We have the freedom to do the same. | Jun 10 22:37 |
| _Mutex_ | but you are requesting someone come to your site and "resolve" your satire ? | Jun 10 22:37 |
| ThatGuy_ | To our IRC room. All are invited. You can all come. | Jun 10 22:37 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | ThatGuy_: which website is this for? | Jun 10 22:38 |
| ThistleWeb | to me, satire is showing events as people perceive them, expanding rumours etc not outright lies and defamation | Jun 10 22:38 |
| ThatGuy_ | The problem is that the lead Admin can't come in here to talk about the situation | Jun 10 22:38 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | ThistleWeb: satire is exaggerating events in the style and for the purpose of making fun of them | Jun 10 22:38 |
| ThatGuy_ | Really? Where is defamation. You honestly think that someone coming to our site is going to believe that we view someone as gay or whatever. | Jun 10 22:38 |
| _Mutex_ | exactly Carl | Jun 10 22:39 |
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| ThistleWeb | so which part of transexual is true? if its an exacgeration of reality for entertainment? | Jun 10 22:39 |
| ThistleWeb | some part must be true to be exagerated | Jun 10 22:39 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: you think the new Macbook Pros are a slap in the face for those who didn't adopt earlier? | Jun 10 22:39 |
| fewa | ignore the trolls | Jun 10 22:39 |
| MinceR | they're a slap in the face for those who buy them | Jun 10 22:40 |
| ThatGuy_ | If you don't want to come to our chat room, will you unban our lead admin so he come here and talk to ya'll and resolve this. | Jun 10 22:40 |
| fewa | ^^^^^^^ | Jun 10 22:40 |
| MinceR | but most of them enjoy being slapped in the face. | Jun 10 22:40 |
| ThistleWeb | iSlap | Jun 10 22:40 |
| fewa | exactly what i was going to write | Jun 10 22:40 |
| ThistleWeb | lol, it's an easy hit to an an i | Jun 10 22:40 |
| _Mutex_ | whats this "macbook" word mean, ?? is it somthing you eat ? | Jun 10 22:40 |
| MinceR | gn | Jun 10 22:41 |
| _Goblin | gn | Jun 10 22:41 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: very true but now since they are removing Express Card slots on every model except the 17-inch replacing it with a single SD slot as well as changing nothing besides bumping up the RAM to DDR3. Its just pitiful | Jun 10 22:41 |
| ThatGuy_ | So, its okay for your people to come over and threaten us over and over? | Jun 10 22:41 |
| MinceR | _Mutex_: it's something you put on your papers so that the wind won't move them | Jun 10 22:41 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: you would think Apple would have had drivers for the Nvidia x260 by now | Jun 10 22:41 |
| MinceR | but only if you're really rich and don't know what to do with your money | Jun 10 22:41 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: in fact they could because FreeBSD has them | Jun 10 22:41 |
| _Goblin | Poor MS Money....may it rest in peace... | Jun 10 22:42 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: Macbook implies that Apple is Macing for your checkbook | Jun 10 22:42 |
| _Mutex_ | they can mac until the cows come home they wont see my money. :) | Jun 10 22:43 |
| ThatGuy_ | schestowitz : Are you still here? Do you fight your own battles or let others do it for you? | Jun 10 22:43 |
| _Mutex_ | tell us what you think the battle is and we'll shut up | Jun 10 22:43 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: same here, especially since they still have not updated to an Nvidia GPU thats not thermal deffective | Jun 10 22:44 |
| ThatGuy_ | Actually, we're not even trying to fight anymore. We just want to resolve this. | Jun 10 22:44 |
| _Goblin | I must admit I was sceptical of the Mac until I had a go on the wifes....solid system. | Jun 10 22:44 |
| ThistleWeb | ThatGuy_: you want to keep using satire as a defense, but I ask again, what part of transexual is true? If satire is an exageration of reality for entertainment | Jun 10 22:44 |
| schestowitz | > ThatGuy_> Legal and physical threats. He's used to that, but this is getting worse | Jun 10 22:44 |
| ThatGuy_ | satire has many definitions | Jun 10 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Nonsense. | Jun 10 22:44 |
| schestowitz | Libel | Jun 10 22:44 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, the one people use to hide behind, and it's real meaning | Jun 10 22:45 |
| ThatGuy_ | Libel requires that the victim was hurt by the comments. | Jun 10 22:45 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Goblin: solid system because nothing ever drastically changes for it in over a decade | Jun 10 22:45 |
| schestowitz | ThatGuy_: you're sperading lies about me | Jun 10 22:45 |
| ThistleWeb | satire is only satire if people believe it COULD be like that | Jun 10 22:45 |
| schestowitz | For it to be logged | Jun 10 22:45 |
| schestowitz | Goodbye | Jun 10 22:45 |
| ThatGuy_ | Are you telling me that what was written on our site had such an impact that it hurt you in some way? | Jun 10 22:45 |
| *schestowitz sets ban on *!*n=lee@*.sc.res.rr.com | Jun 10 22:45 | |
| _Goblin | true. But I gauge its value on the amount of problems the wife has. To date she has had none. | Jun 10 22:45 |
| *schestowitz has kicked ThatGuy_ from #boycottnovell (schestowitz) | Jun 10 22:45 | |
| _Mutex_ | thatguy im sure there are easier ways to get hits on your web site, then to troll here for customers :) | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | He lied | Jun 10 22:46 |
| _Mutex_ | :D | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | I never made ANY threats against them | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | he's fooling y'all | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | And I wasn't paying attention to IRC | Jun 10 22:46 |
| fewa | not fooling me | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | let me find something I saw this morning. | Jun 10 22:46 |
| fewa | bbl | Jun 10 22:46 |
| schestowitz | Here: http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20071121231905127&title=Could%20someone%20please%20fix%20this%3F&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=648388#c648423 | Jun 10 22:47 |
| schestowitz | "Also, is there any reason to devote so much space to the Maureen O'Gara incident? I see someone even links to Grokdoc's recent changes page, which is offensive and will attract more spam, and also they list Dan Lyons' vicious article about me. Can someone get rid of that junk?" | Jun 10 22:47 |
| schestowitz | "It's like SCO's smear campaign has been enshrined there, which is a real distortion of Groklaw's place in history. Neither Lyons's smears or O'Gara's have any place there. There is no reason to list materials I consider libelous. You can quote me, if necessary. And why is there so much about the Sys-con allegations? They have been completely disproven. " | Jun 10 22:47 |
| schestowitz | "Again, that is in the end, the references. If you have to give a reason, state that it's libel. Because Groklaw didn't report on the O'Gara article until after the alleged DDOS supposedly began, so even if there was one, which I don't believe, Groklaw had nothing to do with it, obviously. So the only reason someone put it there is to smear Groklaw. " | Jun 10 22:47 |
| mib_di40ya | Schestowitz: You never directly threatened, but there has been issues brought up by people from here, and we would like to discuss the possibility of you helping us correct what has happened. I think you need to be made aware of these problems as they might affect you if any legal action is taken. I am not here to troll. This really needs to be resolved. | Jun 10 22:48 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Goblin: and I know people who have had plenty of problems from buggy iWebs in which the metatag is posted incorrectly and there is no way to change it because its Apple software in where the user shouldn't interfere with the "environment." Then there are the issues with Roxio Toaster mounting the DVD burner correctly on a certain OSX user account but not the other | Jun 10 22:48 |
| schestowitz | mib_di40ya: there's no legal action | Jun 10 22:48 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Goblin: OSX has its fair share of problems, but I admit they don't happen as often and hardly ever deal with daily use | Jun 10 22:48 |
| schestowitz | I don't even feed those trolls | Jun 10 22:48 |
| schestowitz | Let alone threaten them | Jun 10 22:49 |
| schestowitz | And keep that linsux BS off this channel pls | Jun 10 22:49 |
| schestowitz | It's noise | Jun 10 22:49 |
| schestowitz | We don't need that cesspool her | Jun 10 22:49 |
| schestowitz | *here | Jun 10 22:49 |
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| ThistleWeb | cesspool hair, now there's amental image for ya | Jun 10 22:49 |
| schestowitz | it's bad to be associated with, not to mention that it's borderline crime for them to rejoice attacking the site (DDOS) and claiming to be behind it | Jun 10 22:49 |
| mib_di40ya | Schestowitz: There have been several threats of violence and of legal action that have taken place. I want to show you these threats so you can act accordingly, you should probably see this stuff. | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | Look. | Jun 10 22:50 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Goblin: however because of the way every Apple app inexplicably likes to stash some sort of .ktext in the Extensions and Library folder up until recently it was pretty difficult for the average user to completely uninstall an application | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | I don't want to hear about that Linsux BS here | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | FSDaily want those people banned | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | And I tolerated it for too long | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | You can talk about topics here | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | That's fine | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | I'm not against anyone because they read this and that stuff | Jun 10 22:50 |
| schestowitz | Just don't bring abuse, foul language, racism, etc. | Jun 10 22:51 |
| mib_di40ya | We're just asking, very nicely, would you please talk to the owner before it hits the fan. We want to correct any wrong doings, but there's some VERY big problems here | Jun 10 22:51 |
| schestowitz | because you try to distract and derail. | Jun 10 22:51 |
| schestowitz | No need. | Jun 10 22:51 |
| _Goblin | Carl: The important thing for my wife (since she has no interest in IT) is a functional, tight and userfriendly machine. It seems Apple suits her best... | Jun 10 22:51 |
| schestowitz | There is no problem | Jun 10 22:51 |
| mib_di40ya | We want a closed conversation with you for five minutes. | Jun 10 22:51 |
| schestowitz | I said to Sean Tilly there's peace | Jun 10 22:51 |
| mib_di40ya | Why is that so much to ask for? | Jun 10 22:51 |
| schestowitz | And he came here to take a pile in the chat | Jun 10 22:52 |
| mib_di40ya | Not by the people on your site | Jun 10 22:52 |
| _Goblin | I dont think anyone cares mib. | Jun 10 22:52 |
| _Mutex_ | tell your admin to learn how to edit a web page, or how to take down offensive material. its after all YOUR responsibility | Jun 10 22:52 |
| schestowitz | So stop teasing us, pls | Jun 10 22:52 |
| mib_di40ya | You're not the problem, but you need to be aware of what these people are saying on your site. | Jun 10 22:52 |
| schestowitz | We don't even pay attention to you, so stop harrassing us | Jun 10 22:52 |
| schestowitz | *harassing | Jun 10 22:52 |
| _Goblin | we are not interested in anything that the site xxxsux.xxx says. | Jun 10 22:52 |
| schestowitz | They advertise themseld by just bringing it up | Jun 10 22:53 |
| _Goblin | it is childish and trying to get popularity on the back of respected sites. | Jun 10 22:53 |
| schestowitz | We need it here as much as we need Goatse | Jun 10 22:53 |
| EDavidBurg | _Goblin: isn't the xxx domain going for porn sites now? or did that never happen? | Jun 10 22:53 |
| mib_di40ya | You're the one prolonging this, we want you to talk to you out of a public area to discuss some legal issues. | Jun 10 22:53 |
| mib_di40ya | This isn't bull | Jun 10 22:53 |
| _Goblin | pass....! | Jun 10 22:53 |
| _Goblin | Mib...it is. | Jun 10 22:53 |
| _Goblin | nobody cares | Jun 10 22:54 |
| _Goblin | the only people who post on your site is the same few people. | Jun 10 22:54 |
| EDavidBurg | _Goblin: small communities are still communities | Jun 10 22:55 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Goblin: it is just there are plenty of issues Apple has to contend with before proclaiming to be THE BEST company for user experience. Another thing is beyond Apple's Genius Bar in their stores there is no clear structure of tech support, requests that are filed seem to just sit there before someone picks them up and calls someone for the whole "individual experience." Which sometimes doesn't amount to much aside from slo | Jun 10 22:55 |
| mib_di40ya | This is childish. I'm just trying to make you aware of some legal problems you might face. | Jun 10 22:55 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | EDavidBurg: domain specifying is burried, too many different websites use different domains. Its about as relevant now as putting "www" before the web address | Jun 10 22:56 |
| _Goblin | edavidburg: agreed and as far as the immature potty mouthed behaviour of "the site that cannot be named", it will stay that way. | Jun 10 22:56 |
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| _Mutex_ | no one outside of you or your web site admins have any legal issues to resolve geeezzzz | Jun 10 22:56 |
| _Mutex_ | you think we're stupid ?? | Jun 10 22:56 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | I don't see any threats of violence beyond those that claim there are :-/ | Jun 10 22:57 |
| mib_di40ya | No, you're stupid. I'm trying to tell you that we've received threats from people on this site and there's issues that need to be resolved. | Jun 10 22:57 |
| _Goblin | and Roy needs to resolve them because........? | Jun 10 22:57 |
| _Goblin | anyone cares because.......? | Jun 10 22:57 |
| mib_di40ya | It might cause him legal trouble | Jun 10 22:57 |
| trmanco | I'm now using FF 3.5b99 now | Jun 10 22:57 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Has No Money Anymore < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/10/microsoft-money-axed/ > | Jun 10 22:58 |
| mib_331k89 | Why ban people because you don't like what they're saying. What happened to freedom? | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Goblin | lol | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Mutex_ | we'll thanks for that, YOU'VE received threats, YOU DEAL WITH THEM. | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Mutex_ | and go away while your at it | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Goblin | mib....lets hear it then....and be careful. | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Goblin | what offenses have taken place? | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Goblin | are we talking civil or criminal. | Jun 10 22:58 |
| mib_di40ya | This doesn't concern you Mutex and Goblin, this is a matter between the staff members of these two sites. The issues have no been made public. | Jun 10 22:58 |
| mib_di40ya | Both. | Jun 10 22:58 |
| _Mutex_ | he's not going to tell you | Jun 10 22:58 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: thanks for the link on Money | Jun 10 22:59 |
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| _Mutex_ | what did I say, | Jun 10 22:59 |
| _Goblin | Oh it does, I think you will find I am able to give you quite comprehensive legal advice. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is unable to maintain teams | Jun 10 22:59 |
| mib_di40ya | Thanks, but no. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| schestowitz | It means that as much as they try, there are problems they won't talk about | Jun 10 22:59 |
| _Goblin | In relation to UK law. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| EDavidBurg | schestowitz: i see what you did there (nice pun) | Jun 10 22:59 |
| mib_di40ya | I already have a lawyer. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| _Goblin | no case Roy....just wind. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| _Goblin | thats nice for you Mib. | Jun 10 22:59 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: just leave that peripheral discussion | Jun 10 22:59 |
| _Goblin | agreed | Jun 10 23:00 |
| schestowitz | It's not related to #bn. It's noise | Jun 10 23:00 |
| _Mutex_ | lucky about that, you'll need one | Jun 10 23:00 |
| trmanco | Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1b99) Gecko/20090610 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Shiretoko/3.5b99 | Jun 10 23:00 |
| mib_di40ya | Really? | Jun 10 23:00 |
| mib_di40ya | Are you going to make more threats? | Jun 10 23:00 |
| _Goblin | Im going to have a beer. | Jun 10 23:00 |
| _Mutex_ | More? I would have to start with one first | Jun 10 23:00 |
| mib_di40ya | Well, I'm really not sure who you are. | Jun 10 23:01 |
| _Mutex_ | so !! im not sure who you are either, im not sure i care | Jun 10 23:02 |
| _Goblin | Im Elvis. | Jun 10 23:02 |
| mib_331k89 | Very grown up | Jun 10 23:02 |
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| mib_di40ya | But if Schestowitz doesn't want to discuss this issue, then fine. | Jun 10 23:02 |
| _Goblin | true. | Jun 10 23:02 |
| _Goblin | ok bye | Jun 10 23:02 |
| mib_di40ya | I'm just trying to be nice | Jun 10 23:02 |
| _Mutex_ | If your elvis whats your middle name ?? | Jun 10 23:02 |
| _Goblin | pass.. | Jun 10 23:03 |
| _Goblin | never was a fan. | Jun 10 23:03 |
| _Goblin | bye Mib. | Jun 10 23:03 |
| schestowitz | The brand name of hypervm is dead: http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25559/53/ | Jun 10 23:03 |
| schestowitz | Who would buy HyperVM now? | Jun 10 23:03 |
| _Mutex_ | if your call threatening legal action and trying to conjole someone to visiting your site is nce sure you were | Jun 10 23:03 |
| mib_331k89 | So, this is what happens when we attempt to settle things. Instead of acting like adults and settling things, like adults. The entire BN IRC room decides to act like children. | Jun 10 23:03 |
| mib_di40ya | It's funny, though. You see, Schestowitz doesn't even know what we're talking about, yet he writes it off like we're bullshitting. | Jun 10 23:03 |
| _Goblin | Roy, have you seen the MS Money news? | Jun 10 23:03 |
| _Mutex_ | he's being on topic | Jun 10 23:04 |
| EDavidBurg | _Mutex_: he just linked to that a few minutes ago | Jun 10 23:04 |
| splosion_ | trmanco: that DCC thing you got earlier is an old IRC trolling trick. Some old clients would go apeshit if you sent a file with more than $can't_remember characters in the title. On old, poorly configured IRC networks, just issuing a DCC send could disconnect half the users on a channel. Surprised somebody thought it would still work tbh | Jun 10 23:04 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: yes, just posted about it | Jun 10 23:04 |
| _Goblin | They talk about childish....lol...have you seen Trojans profile... | Jun 10 23:04 |
| mib_331k89 | We're called immature, etc. And yet...You all act like you're in grade school. Weird. | Jun 10 23:04 |
| schestowitz | The noise must have made it vanish | Jun 10 23:04 |
| schestowitz | <schestowitz> Microsoft Has No Money Anymore < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/10/microsoft-money-axed/ > | Jun 10 23:04 |
| _Goblin | by not rising to your bait? | Jun 10 23:04 |
| schestowitz | There are many good headline for this | Jun 10 23:05 |
| schestowitz | *lines | Jun 10 23:05 |
| trmanco | splosion_, I see :-P | Jun 10 23:05 |
| schestowitz | In Identica I used another punm | Jun 10 23:05 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1b99) Gecko/20090610 Ubuntu/9.04 (jaunty) Shiretoko/3.5b99 :D | Jun 10 23:05 | |
| _Goblin | Roy, I prefered my title....No money in MS Money. | Jun 10 23:05 |
| splosion_ | sorry I was on the phone but I saw and I remembered to make sure I told you, trmanco :P | Jun 10 23:05 |
| trmanco | ah, thanks | Jun 10 23:05 |
| *fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jun 10 23:06 | |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: yes, it's factually true | Jun 10 23:06 |
| schestowitz | They couldn't make money from it | Jun 10 23:06 |
| schestowitz | They tried taking it offline | Jun 10 23:06 |
| _Goblin | so whats next....MS Money, Summer Picnics, MS Flightsim, Bars on campus....how much more fat will MS cut? | Jun 10 23:06 |
| schestowitz | 6 months or so they took it off the shalves | Jun 10 23:06 |
| schestowitz | ..Said they would sell it onlone | Jun 10 23:06 |
| schestowitz | But apparently it didn't work out | Jun 10 23:06 |
| _Mutex_ | did they cut flightsim ? | Jun 10 23:07 |
| _Goblin | yeah | Jun 10 23:07 |
| _Goblin | a few months ago | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: well, Live search is dead too | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | They created a deception engine | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | Telling you what to think | Jun 10 23:07 |
| _Mutex_ | I have a really old win 95 version that have the twin towers in it, (since removed). | Jun 10 23:07 |
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| balzac | I used to enjoy a game called Fokker Tri Plane on the Mac plus | Jun 10 23:07 |
| _Goblin | It wont matter, they just change the name again | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | Search engines are too expensive to make | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | They CANCELED their Iowa DC | Jun 10 23:07 |
| schestowitz | Back around December | Jun 10 23:08 |
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| ThistleWeb | real inovation would be "dead search" where you can find the deceased with an integrated PM protocol to chat to them | Jun 10 23:08 |
| schestowitz | Permanently forzen, which means they'll never build another DC | Jun 10 23:08 |
| _Mutex_ | Elite on the Amiga | Jun 10 23:08 |
| _Goblin | David Braben | Jun 10 23:08 |
| yuhong | BTW, there is a simple mistake in a link from this page. | Jun 10 23:08 |
| _Goblin | a coding God! | Jun 10 23:08 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/17/google-caught-astroturfing/ | Jun 10 23:08 |
| balzac | The executives at Microsoft should all be reading Stallman's Free Software Free Society | Jun 10 23:08 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: seen Schmidt's comment? | Jun 10 23:08 |
| schestowitz | Very FUNNY | Jun 10 23:08 |
| _Goblin | no not yet | Jun 10 23:09 |
| balzac | if they want to raise their social awareness and learn how to adjust | Jun 10 23:09 |
| schestowitz | about 3 hours ago from Ping.fm | Jun 10 23:09 |
| schestowitz | Jun 10 23:09 | |
| schestowitz | Google CEO on Microsoft Bing: 'They do this about once a year' | Jun 10 23:09 |
| yuhong | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/02/18/google's-cutts-apologizes-for-paid-post-snafu | Jun 10 23:09 |
| schestowitz | This=rename+marketing | Jun 10 23:09 |
| _Goblin | ah...yeah I saw that one... | Jun 10 23:09 |
| balzac | or else they'll keep losing market share and money at an accelerating pace | Jun 10 23:09 |
| yuhong | This link do not work. | Jun 10 23:09 |
| yuhong | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/02/18/googles-cutts-apologizes-for-paid-post-snafu | Jun 10 23:09 |
| mib_di40ya | Have a nice day Roy, keep on drinkin' that Kool-Aid. Remember, we asked you to help us resolve the issues. | Jun 10 23:09 |
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| balzac | until it'll be a ticker tape parade of pink slips | Jun 10 23:09 |
| yuhong | This one does. | Jun 10 23:09 |
| yuhong | Notice the difference? | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: what's the problem? | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | They did the shilling spiel | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Shame on them too | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Sony did too | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | And Microsoft of course | Jun 10 23:10 |
| yuhong | But they at least apologized. | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Belkin quite recently... let it ruined their brand | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: HAHA! | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Apologised | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Why? | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | Cause they got CAUGHT? | Jun 10 23:10 |
| schestowitz | A lot of murderers apologise too... not that I compare the two violations | Jun 10 23:11 |
| yuhong | But look, the link on this page about the astroturfing by Google is broken. | Jun 10 23:11 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/17/google-caught-astroturfing/ | Jun 10 23:11 |
| yuhong | The mistake is simple, it is an apostrophe. | Jun 10 23:11 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft never regretted the OOXML bribes... it only regretted that it let itself be caught red-handed | Jun 10 23:11 |
| yuhong | Right, compare that with Google. | Jun 10 23:12 |
| yuhong | "Google’s Cutts Apologizes For Paid Post Snafu" | Jun 10 23:12 |
| yuhong | This link is broken. | Jun 10 23:12 |
| yuhong | And the mistake is simple. | Jun 10 23:13 |
| ThistleWeb | hey, it works for MPs on expense fraud "whoopsie, that was an accounting error, I've graciously agreed to pay it back, let's move on and not tell the cops shall we?" | Jun 10 23:13 |
| yuhong | I deleted an apostrophe and it worked. | Jun 10 23:13 |
| schestowitz | Cisco Developer Contest: the ten finalists < http://www.ciscozine.com/2009/06/09/cisco-developer-contest-the-ten-finalists/ >. cisco PR and self service (make apps for Cisco, for free) | Jun 10 23:13 |
| yuhong | At least Google is better than MS. | Jun 10 23:14 |
| mib_331k89 | Ladies and Gentlemen, your Linux community: Advocates of Freedom until....you disagree with them. | Jun 10 23:15 |
| schestowitz | yuhong: fixed now, thanks | Jun 10 23:16 |
| ThistleWeb | have Microsoft ever admited paid shills and appologised? | Jun 10 23:16 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 10 23:16 |
| schestowitz | To me even | Jun 10 23:16 |
| _Goblin | have MS appologized for anything? | Jun 10 23:16 |
| schestowitz | Their Main TE | Jun 10 23:16 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: for getting caught | Jun 10 23:16 |
| ThistleWeb | k | Jun 10 23:16 |
| _Goblin | ? | Jun 10 23:17 |
| schestowitz | If you don't get caught, why apologise (MS motto) | Jun 10 23:17 |
| _Goblin | lol | Jun 10 23:17 |
| yuhong | Compare with Google, which caught it themselves. | Jun 10 23:17 |
| _Goblin | I never got a sorry from Andre | Jun 10 23:17 |
| ThistleWeb | yuhong: that's what I was thinking | Jun 10 23:17 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/15/microsoft-guerrilla-people-monsters/#comment-48687 | Jun 10 23:17 |
| yuhong | But MS is still doing it. | Jun 10 23:18 |
| _Goblin | that to me was a stupid shill. Recieve a free laptop and then stick a photo of yourself with the laptop on the net... | Jun 10 23:18 |
| ThistleWeb | Google are mixed for me, they do some good stuff, but also some data mining stuff that put me off their products | Jun 10 23:18 |
| schestowitz | Why did MS kick its CIO? | Jun 10 23:18 |
| schestowitz | They never said why | Jun 10 23:18 |
| yuhong | While Google caught it themselves. | Jun 10 23:18 |
| schestowitz | Probably some crime they would not disclose | Jun 10 23:18 |
| yuhong | Google is not perfect. | Jun 10 23:18 |
| schestowitz | ThistleWeb: but they have comic graphics | Jun 10 23:19 |
| ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 10 23:19 |
| schestowitz | Kind of distracts you from the heavy metal that does all the ops | Jun 10 23:19 |
| ThistleWeb | Google seem to have a carbon-neutral approach to evil, so some evil but balance it with doing the equivalent amount of good | Jun 10 23:20 |
| ThistleWeb | carbon-offsetting* | Jun 10 23:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "EWe strongly suggest you do NOT discuss this with others, especially patients." O rly. http://is.gd/Ygl6 | Jun 10 23:20 | |
| ThistleWeb | or evil-offsetting if you will | Jun 10 23:20 |
| schestowitz | "We're not evil" http://www.prweaver.com/blog/images/google/google-office-january-05.jpg | Jun 10 23:20 |
| schestowitz | "we play our toys" http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3146/2922191521_3f50396f75.jpg | Jun 10 23:21 |
| yuhong | Belkin's incident was interesting, as it involves using Amazon's own Mechanical Turk to pollute Amazon's own reviews. | Jun 10 23:21 |
| ThistleWeb | SOC is a great thing | Jun 10 23:21 |
| schestowitz | "ooooh oooooh, me so cutie... " http://www.hugpug.com/photos/sheba_layout/google_stuff.jpg | Jun 10 23:21 |
| yuhong | Google is not perfect, but still far better than MS. | Jun 10 23:21 |
| yuhong | far far better. | Jun 10 23:21 |
| splosion_ | POI: the original evil quote was actually "Do no evil". Some bastard blogger paraphrased it as "Don't be evil" and that's the version that stuck. Somewhat irrelevant, but the more you know! | Jun 10 23:23 |
| schestowitz | http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/election-mania-uk-pirate-party/ | Jun 10 23:23 |
| schestowitz | Yes, "do know evil?" is another old one | Jun 10 23:23 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | I see that M$ trying to cut expenses on shipping and retailing by moving more apps to coud | Jun 10 23:23 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cloud | Jun 10 23:23 |
| schestowitz | Not only... | Jun 10 23:24 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | they're phasing out M$ Money in favor of MSN Money | Jun 10 23:24 |
| schestowitz | Did you see the latest news..? ;-) | Jun 10 23:24 |
| yuhong | I know! | Jun 10 23:24 |
| schestowitz | http://www.cbronline.com/news/microsoft_ip_ventures_launches_new_irish_tech_startup_090609 | Jun 10 23:24 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: nope I have been busy reading the previous | Jun 10 23:24 |
| schestowitz | http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39662046,00.htm | Jun 10 23:24 |
| yuhong | Google is not perfect, but it is far better than MS. | Jun 10 23:24 |
| _Mutex_ | the've been doing that for years | Jun 10 23:24 |
| schestowitz | "Microsoft has spun out an intellectual property business unit it acquired two years ago, apparently to control the company's costs." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/09/microsoft_ip_venture_spin_out/ | Jun 10 23:24 |
| yuhong | BTW, on why MS is evil, I found this very interesting: | Jun 10 23:25 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/01/antitrust-letters-doj/ | Jun 10 23:25 |
| _Mutex_ | what they will do is provide you a DVD with all the apps on it, and you'll have to pay to enable the different installs, thats been happening for years as well | Jun 10 23:25 |
| _Mutex_ | I dont think MS is any more evil than the US housing banks for example, or the previous administration | Jun 10 23:26 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: well they probably raped or lack of thereof whatever profits in royalties and damages those IP provided, now they are reading to cast it to the wayside | Jun 10 23:26 |
| _Mutex_ | sorry, you have to be smart to be evil.. | Jun 10 23:26 |
| yuhong | So is Google better than MS in catching and apologizing for the shilling. | Jun 10 23:26 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | _Mutex_: but M$ has never really changed administrations | Jun 10 23:26 |
| balzac | http://www.fsdaily.com/Opposition/Boycott_Novell_Fight_FUD_with_Fun#comment-4818 | Jun 10 23:27 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | yuhong: M$ did plenty of apologizing for Xbox360 defects | Jun 10 23:27 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | yuhong: but at the end of the day never officially doles out the damages for them: http://slated.org/microsoft_kills_baby | Jun 10 23:27 |
| yuhong | Yes, but so does many other manufacturers and it is kind of unrelated. | Jun 10 23:28 |
| yuhong | Google even penalized Google Japan's own PageRank. | Jun 10 23:28 |
| mib_331k89 | I have a serious question, if I may ask. | Jun 10 23:28 |
| _Mutex_ | yes you may,, do you have another question ? | Jun 10 23:29 |
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| mib_331k89 | This is serious. This is not a trolling question, though it may seem to be. Ever since my first interaction with GNU, I've wondered this. | Jun 10 23:29 |
| mib_331k89 | RMS talks about freedom. But, what about freedom for the developer? Why is a developer who chooses a non-free and closed license bad? My thinking is that he is the one who put his efforts into this. Why can't he decide? | Jun 10 23:30 |
| schestowitz | balzac: so not they distract and ruin FSDaily too? | Jun 10 23:30 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | yuhong: thats like GM's HQ taking funding out of the US subsidiary for a bad job and giving it to the Chinese one for a great one | Jun 10 23:31 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | yuhong: they are just playing around with their balance sheets, its not really penalizing. Only the courts can do that | Jun 10 23:31 |
| _Mutex_ | I know where you're coming from, and a developer has every freedom to choose to write open source or closed source code. | Jun 10 23:31 |
| schestowitz | China could buy GM | Jun 10 23:31 |
| schestowitz | Would it not be fascinating? | Jun 10 23:32 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: Toyota can now | Jun 10 23:32 |
| _Mutex_ | he can even write closed source code using open source tools and tool chain | Jun 10 23:32 |
| ThistleWeb | is it just me or does the term "Linux Youth" sound very similar to the "Hitler Youth"? | Jun 10 23:32 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: fact is they won't | Jun 10 23:32 |
| schestowitz | If the Fed could not pay them back the debt | Jun 10 23:32 |
| yuhong | Some do say it is a joke yes, but does MS even do that? | Jun 10 23:32 |
| mib_331k89 | But, why does FSF and RMS make the dev out to be a bad person? That's always bothered me. | Jun 10 23:32 |
| schestowitz | They'll sell government-owned assets | Jun 10 23:32 |
| schestowitz | Liquidate.. | Jun 10 23:32 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: no licence restricts the original developer.I think most people's problem with the closed stuff is downstream recipients. No one can use the code the original dev made and improve on it, or rip it off, whatever. | Jun 10 23:32 |
| schestowitz | Carl_Rover2k12: like Fiat, eh/ | Jun 10 23:32 |
| mib_331k89 | But why is the dev bad for that? | Jun 10 23:33 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: if the Fed puts up too many barriers and requirements for Fiat to hold onto Chrysler's pensions and pay they may just leave | Jun 10 23:33 |
| splosion_ | I don't think he is. Why dontcha ask rms? | Jun 10 23:33 |
| mib_331k89 | He created that code. He shouldn't be made out to be a bad person just because he chose to close his code | Jun 10 23:33 |
| _Mutex_ | bothers me too, it just is, but dont worry it's an issue that divides the FOSS community as well, and would be very hard for and "outsider" to even understand the issue, let alone care | Jun 10 23:33 |
| yuhong | They say it is a joke for a different reason, however. | Jun 10 23:33 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: but in the end of the day Chrysler is pennies compared to the mess GM needs to sort out | Jun 10 23:33 |
| schestowitz | More jobs too | Jun 10 23:33 |
| schestowitz | Auto industry in the US = 3 million jobs | Jun 10 23:34 |
| yuhong | But again does MS even do that at all? | Jun 10 23:34 |
| schestowitz | In the whole chain | Jun 10 23:34 |
| _Mutex_ | approx 1% of the population, | Jun 10 23:34 |
| _Mutex_ | not that much | Jun 10 23:34 |
| schestowitz | IBM is still almost 400k employees | Jun 10 23:34 |
| schestowitz | [But mostly not in the US] | Jun 10 23:34 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: Tier 1 and 2 auto parts manufacturers are already falling by the wayside because no Fed is offering to help them during this production lull | Jun 10 23:34 |
| _Mutex_ | its a wee bit more than a production lull | Jun 10 23:35 |
| schestowitz | I guess more people will walk. | Jun 10 23:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz change the name to MS Debt | Jun 10 23:35 | |
| schestowitz | Here in the south theres' a stock of cars that cannot be sold | Jun 10 23:35 |
| mib_331k89 | May I ask one more question? | Jun 10 23:35 |
| schestowitz | Like 100k in Plymouth just collecting dust | Jun 10 23:35 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: shoot | Jun 10 23:36 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: the Fed should have just broken up GM and sold off the assets to capital strapped startups like, Fisker, Tesla, Saleen and any other business willing to utilize the factories for automobiles or even gasp* mass transit | Jun 10 23:36 |
| schestowitz | Na.. | Jun 10 23:36 |
| schestowitz | People love to drive an oversized Chevy | Jun 10 23:37 |
| schestowitz | Let me find a vid | Jun 10 23:37 |
| ThistleWeb | big car = big cock......to some people | Jun 10 23:37 |
| yuhong | On why MS is being evil, I found this very interesting: | Jun 10 23:37 |
| yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/01/antitrust-letters-doj/ | Jun 10 23:37 |
| _Mutex_ | No they should of kept making bigger and bigger cars, V16's | Jun 10 23:37 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: not really, any auto company can create an oversized Sedan or truck, International Truck co. is a good example | Jun 10 23:37 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: its about keeping an oversized "historic" landmark | Jun 10 23:37 |
| schestowitz | Carl_Rover2k12: one of these: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Chalmers+Johnson&aq=f | Jun 10 23:38 |
| mib_331k89 | What is so bad about what Novell did? Okay, I agree software patents shouldn't exists, but beyond that, what's the big deal with an MS deal? Novell didn't start as a Linux company. How did they "sell out" if they only bought SuSE to make money, not for ethical or ideological stuff. Is it right to hold them to the FOSS standards if they didn't get into | Jun 10 23:38 |
| schestowitz | I can't recall which says what | Jun 10 23:38 |
| schestowitz | No search for speech in vieo, y'know/ | Jun 10 23:38 |
| schestowitz | *video | Jun 10 23:38 |
| mib_331k89 | the business for FOSS reasons. They are in the business of making money. the MS deal made them money. | Jun 10 23:38 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: what exactly is history, past events written or spoken by a person's point of view? | Jun 10 23:39 |
| mib_331k89 | Besides, interoperatbility, in my opinion, is needed. Without it, I don't see Linux ever being adopted by the masses. I realize that you probably disagree with me. And that's fine. I understand. | Jun 10 23:39 |
| mib_331k89 | I just would like to understand your view better. The big thing to me is holding them to a standard they weren't in the business of trying to meet. | Jun 10 23:40 |
| schestowitz | Carl_Rover2k12: yes, or observations | Jun 10 23:40 |
| schestowitz | But they depend on viewpoin | Jun 10 23:40 |
| ThistleWeb | mib_331k89: they legitimised a non-existent M$ claim by acknowledging it, which Microsoft can then use as "hey Novell saw it, they believe, you best believe too" | Jun 10 23:40 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: I think the main gripe is that for years, Microsoft actively tried to destroy Linux. By funding the SCO Lawsuit, and by patent threats. By entering into a patent agreement, Novell legitimized Microsoft's patent claim. Patents which most people felt to be bogus. People feel betrayed by this decision | Jun 10 23:40 |
| yuhong | And on Windows 7's laptop gifting, how long does the quid quo pro really last? | Jun 10 23:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: which name? | Jun 10 23:40 | |
| schestowitz | I'm reminded of some talks about journos who were brough by US soliders to see what they 'needed' to see | Jun 10 23:40 |
| yuhong | "expect him to say nice thing about MS in the *future*" | Jun 10 23:41 |
| schestowitz | So you grab some English-speaking reporter for a tour in say.. Guantanamo... all intended to document particular aspects | Jun 10 23:41 |
| mib_331k89 | Right, but from what I've seen, in the last few years, their attitude towards open source has changed. And I can understand skeptisim. | Jun 10 23:41 |
| yuhong | In the future? | Jun 10 23:41 |
| yuhong | how long does the quid quo pro really last? | Jun 10 23:41 |
| mib_331k89 | But, it is possible for a company to change direction based on the market. If the market is leaning towards OS, there is no doubt that MS would start to legitimally move in that direction. | Jun 10 23:41 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: If Linux wins, Microsoft loses. Like you say, they're in the business of making money. Microsoft are against FOSS and Linux by definition. they are a competitor and they need to pay the bills. | Jun 10 23:42 |
| mib_331k89 | And, yes, I can see that there's a good chance that MS is just trying to bait Novell, but, what if they're not? | Jun 10 23:42 |
| ThistleWeb | mib_331k89: M$ are not against free software, the free software that allows them to take it, close it off, modify it and use it to help vendor lock in. They can't stand GPL because it forbids them from doing that | Jun 10 23:42 |
| mib_331k89 | Not necessairily. | Jun 10 23:42 |
| ThistleWeb | they haven't changed | Jun 10 23:42 |
| ThistleWeb | they will never change | Jun 10 23:42 |
| mib_331k89 | I do not see MS going anywhere. Even if Linux makes great headway on the market, MS isn't leaving. | Jun 10 23:43 |
| ThistleWeb | they will play all sorts of PR games to dance with anti-trust orders | Jun 10 23:43 |
| yuhong | Never? I would not go that far, but here is a quote from AskWoody. | Jun 10 23:43 |
| _Mutex_ | except MS release code under the GPL | Jun 10 23:43 |
| mib_331k89 | The proof is in other products. How many people own two of similar things from different companies? | Jun 10 23:43 |
| ThistleWeb | they will adopt all sorts of stuff like Office Open (sounds a lot like Open Office huh) to confuse people | Jun 10 23:43 |
| mib_331k89 | MS is relied on too heavily to go anywhere. | Jun 10 23:43 |
| _Mutex_ | MS are dammed if they do and dammed if they dont i think is what mib is refering too. | Jun 10 23:43 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: personally, I think Microsoft will try to make some money with software licences for stuff that runs on Linux. Mono is one way of doing this. Whether or not they will use it as a trojan horse to attack Linux from within remains to be seen. We'll just have to wait and see. | Jun 10 23:43 |
| _Mutex_ | it would not matter what MS did, in someone eyes it would be wrong | Jun 10 23:44 |
| yuhong | "But also consider the corporate culture that allows such blatant acts of hubris to take place. Repeatedly. | Jun 10 23:44 |
| yuhong | The old Microsoft is with us still." | Jun 10 23:44 |
| mib_331k89 | What I mean is that MS is going to fight competitors, but there also comes a time when a company may realize that they have to work with their competitors to make money (i.e. look at airline alliances). | Jun 10 23:44 |
| ThistleWeb | each time they are caught they seek new ways to continue while "looking" like they stopped | Jun 10 23:44 |
| yuhong | And the culture is worse than hubris. There is also dishonesty. | Jun 10 23:44 |
| mib_331k89 | I don't believe the MS will attempt to destroy Linux. | Jun 10 23:45 |
| _Goblin | lol | Jun 10 23:45 |
| yuhong | ThistleWeb: Yep, does Google do that. | Jun 10 23:45 |
| yuhong | ThistleWeb: Yep, does Google do that? | Jun 10 23:45 |
| ThistleWeb | mib_331k89: then you are either naieve or a shill | Jun 10 23:45 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: it's a possibility, sure. But you can't blame people for being suspicious. There is every reason to be suspicious. STill, it's just a matter of time. The truth will out, eventually | Jun 10 23:45 |
| mib_331k89 | I see MS using Linux to help them. It can become a symbiosis | Jun 10 23:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz MS Money. I'm writing the notnews right now. | Jun 10 23:45 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz where/what's the full list of MS products killed this year? | Jun 10 23:45 | |
| *Carl_Rover2k12 has quit () | Jun 10 23:45 | |
| _Goblin | yep...what plane of existance are you living on? | Jun 10 23:45 |
| _Mutex_ | you want to hope its not "just a matter of time" Linux/UNIX has been around for 40 years Windows 20, if OS's have a lifespan Linnux is the oldie | Jun 10 23:46 |
| schestowitz | "One of the risks of using a commercial OS for embedded systems like ATM machines: it's easier to write malware against it" http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/06/malware_steals.html | Jun 10 23:47 |
| mib_331k89 | Linux has not been around 40 years. | Jun 10 23:47 |
| mib_331k89 | UNIX has, but Linux != UNIX | Jun 10 23:47 |
| mib_piuqy3 | That statement is an insult to Unix. | Jun 10 23:47 |
| _Goblin | mib: Are you from linxxx.xxx? | Jun 10 23:47 |
| _Mutex_ | Linux is "Unix like" and "almost" fully POSIX compliant | Jun 10 23:47 |
| yuhong | But though Unix's evolution they maintained backward compatiblity. | Jun 10 23:47 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Mutex: so? | Jun 10 23:48 |
| mib_331k89 | "almost" != fully | Jun 10 23:48 |
| yuhong | How many V7 Unix programs compile and run on Linux today? | Jun 10 23:48 |
| _Mutex_ | and your right, Linux aobu t 20 years, UNIX 40 years, MS 25 years ish | Jun 10 23:48 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Well, actually | Jun 10 23:48 |
| yuhong | Leopard got a UNIX 03 certification from the Open Group. | Jun 10 23:48 |
| mib_piuqy3 | NT isn't 25 years old. | Jun 10 23:48 |
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| yuhong | NT is more than 15 years old. | Jun 10 23:49 |
| _Mutex_ | that depends on how posix compliant Linux is | Jun 10 23:49 |
| _Mutex_ | MS is | Jun 10 23:49 |
| yuhong | Linux is *less* than 20 years old. | Jun 10 23:49 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Linux is not Unix. | Jun 10 23:49 |
| splosion_ | DaemonFC: If you're too lame to use ffmpeg to encode, use winff. It's a graphical frontend for ffmpeg and it does h.264 conversions really well. Oh and you can multithread it across your processor cores to speed it up. SO THERE | Jun 10 23:49 |
| mib_piuqy3 | 18 years, to be exact. | Jun 10 23:49 |
| yuhong | Linux is Unix-like. | Jun 10 23:50 |
| splosion_ | DaemonFC: and also, hi | Jun 10 23:50 |
| _Mutex_ | liux 1.0 is 17 year sold but 1.0 was not the first linux | Jun 10 23:50 |
| mib_331k89 | My original point was that I find it counterproductive to be upset with a company for doing what a company does (i.e. Novell). They were making money to make the stockholders happy And they succeeded. | Jun 10 23:50 |
| mib_piuqy3 | 18, I believe | Jun 10 23:50 |
| yuhong | While Mac OS X Leopard got a unix 03 certification from the Open Group. | Jun 10 23:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: it's in The Reg somewhere | Jun 10 23:50 | |
| mib_331k89 | 18 | Jun 10 23:50 |
| _Mutex_ | ok 1.0 was 18 | Jun 10 23:50 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Actually, I think 1.0 is like 15 years old. | Jun 10 23:50 |
| mib_piuqy3 | 0.1 or whatever is 18. | Jun 10 23:50 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing wrong with being stupid and typing really arcane commands to do a whole file at a time | Jun 10 23:50 |
| DaemonFC | now is there? | Jun 10 23:51 |
| yuhong | Correct. | Jun 10 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Jun 10 23:51 |
| mib_331k89 | Actually, 1.0 is 15 years old | Jun 10 23:51 |
| ThistleWeb | mib_331k89: all companies do that, it's HOW they do it that counts. Microsoft also "just make money for their shareholders" | Jun 10 23:51 |
| yuhong | Linux 0.99 as I remember lasted 1 and a half years. | Jun 10 23:51 |
| _Mutex_ | ok so its nearly as old as MS, and rides on the sholders of 40 YO UNIX, im glad we sorted that :) | Jun 10 23:51 |
| mib_331k89 | Okay, so why take one of the most successful Linux companies and boycott them? | Jun 10 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, they never wanted to call it 1.0 because some other problem would come up and block it | Jun 10 23:51 |
| DaemonFC | that was actually kind of funny | Jun 10 23:52 |
| schestowitz | Hmm.. nice Gnome theme: http://www.kabatology.com/06/09/ubuntu-904-jaunty-jackalope-round-up/ | Jun 10 23:52 |
| yuhong | Actually, it is about 50 years old. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| mib_331k89 | I could understand it if it was Red Hat, as Red Hat got into the business just for Linux, but Novell did not. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| ThistleWeb | it's debatable if Novell did succeed given the fact that they are pariahs now in the Linux community because of that deal | Jun 10 23:52 |
| mib_331k89 | Novell is older than Linux is. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| yuhong | Actually less. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| splosion_ | mib_331k89: Let's take that example to the extreme. Microsoft kill a bunch of babies. Turns out it's a good way of making money or something. It's good for their shareholders, but are you happy with what they're doing? OK, it's a stupid extreme example, but the actions of corporations are above good and evil. There is no moral decision in business. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| yuhong | Well, I know, and that is another mess altogether. | Jun 10 23:52 |
| mib_331k89 | Yes, it is stupid because we're not talking about anything illegal | Jun 10 23:52 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Right, because microsoft could legally kill babies "facepalm" | Jun 10 23:53 |
| splosion_ | people on the other hand, have morals. Too many of them. And people object to stuff they find morally wrong. Microsoft are known to do these things | Jun 10 23:53 |
| _Mutex_ | apart from us that remember Netware | Jun 10 23:53 |
| splosion_ | mib_piuqy3: yeah I know it's a stupid example | Jun 10 23:53 |
| ThistleWeb | who know if Microsofts claims are legal or not, they wont disclose them | Jun 10 23:53 |
| mib_piuqy3 | "Microsoft are known to do these things"? | Jun 10 23:53 |
| mib_piuqy3 | Microsoft kill babies?! | Jun 10 23:53 |
| ThistleWeb | yet they use them as ammo / extrortion to make money | Jun 10 23:54 |
| _Mutex_ | splosion tell that to the guy that just went to prison in the US for that ponsie thing | Jun 10 23:54 |
| yuhong | We need to move away from "shareholder value" and dehumanization. | Jun 10 23:54 |
| splosion_ | They do thing people morally object to. Not killing babies | Jun 10 23:54 |
| splosion_ | Corporations have no morals by definition. People do. That's why people get unhappy with corporations sometimes. That's the point | Jun 10 23:54 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: When a guy with his site icon depicting a marijuana plant starts talking about beautiful themes for Ubuntu | Jun 10 23:55 |
| _Mutex_ | some people morally object to me eating meat too, does not mean its wrong | Jun 10 23:55 |
| DaemonFC | you can't help but to laugh | Jun 10 23:55 |
| yuhong | Right, but corporations are led by people however. | Jun 10 23:55 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: you eat meat? NO WAY!!!! | Jun 10 23:55 |
| mib_piuqy3 | People who have no morals. Your point is lame. | Jun 10 23:55 |
| ThistleWeb | nah, just kiddin | Jun 10 23:55 |
| yuhong | People that have morals however. | Jun 10 23:56 |
| yuhong | People that have morals. | Jun 10 23:56 |
| _Mutex_ | I guess I should be shunned, boycotted, and called evil I know, I also ride horses !!! | Jun 10 23:56 |
| splosion_ | mib_piuqy3: Corporations exist to make money for their shareholders. That governs their actions, not any higher ethics | Jun 10 23:56 |
| yuhong | And that comes another mess. | Jun 10 23:56 |
| mib_piuqy3 | People run companies. People make the rules at these companies, therefore it's the morals of people. | Jun 10 23:56 |
| yuhong | "shareholder value", dehumanization, "it is just business". | Jun 10 23:57 |
| yuhong | I am going to dig up articles on all of these. | Jun 10 23:57 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: you know "eating meat" and "riding horses" could mean different things on different channels ;) | Jun 10 23:57 |
| mib_piuqy3 | People make the rules. People decide what is morally right for the company. | Jun 10 23:57 |
| _Mutex_ | that is true, and they are liable for their actions and deeds as well | Jun 10 23:57 |
| splosion_ | mib_piuqy3: but if you were the CEO of a major company and did what you felt was morally right all the time, then you'd go out of business, fast | Jun 10 23:57 |
| schestowitz | Beranger goes angry again. http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/09/f11-f1-help-1/ | Jun 10 23:57 |
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| _Mutex_ | I didnt think this was "that " kind of a channel LOL | Jun 10 23:57 |
| mib_piuqy3 | So they decide that it's morally alright then? | Jun 10 23:57 |
| mib_piuqy3 | It's still morally wrong on the persons part. | Jun 10 23:57 |
| ThistleWeb | _Mutex_: it's not, hence we get what you mean :P | Jun 10 23:58 |
| yuhong | I know, that was an unfortunate result of the "shareholder value" movement. | Jun 10 23:58 |
| yuhong | http://www.slowleadership.org/blog/2007/11/why-you-should-always-take-business-personally/ | Jun 10 23:58 |
| _Mutex_ | thats right the "morallity police" will come and get you, | Jun 10 23:59 |
| splosion_ | mib_piuqy3: and even if the managers of companies had all the morals in the world, people would still be annoyed with them. People tend to disagree about a lot of stuff. Morals included | Jun 10 23:59 |
| yuhong | Yep, no one is perfect. | Jun 10 23:59 |
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