_Goblin | Last night of using XP... | Jun 13 00:00 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Screenshots of Ubuntu 9.10 (alpha): still looks the same http://ping.fm/u2lec | Jun 13 00:00 | |
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_Hicham_ | _Goblin : why last night? | Jun 13 00:01 |
_Goblin | End of holiday. | Jun 13 00:01 |
_Goblin | I'll be home on sat, and wont have to use this XP netbook | Jun 13 00:01 |
_Goblin | I was trying to think how long its been since Ive used a Microsoft product outside of work... | Jun 13 00:01 |
_Goblin | Its been a long time... | Jun 13 00:02 |
_Mutex_ | Goodnight all, thanks for the interesting chats, catch you all later, if not have a great weekend.... | Jun 13 00:02 |
_Goblin | ditto...been very interesting... | Jun 13 00:02 |
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_Goblin | and if anyone was privy to the conversation I had this morning.....It appears that flying the jolly roger at sea is ok. I wasn't sunk by the Royal Navy. | Jun 13 00:05 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palms's new Linux-based phones receive some good reviews (thus far): http://ping.fm/BA8UP | Jun 13 00:05 | |
schestowitz | Royal Navy...? | Jun 13 00:05 |
_Goblin | yeah Roy... | Jun 13 00:05 |
schestowitz | _Goblin: did you know that RAF based in the UK are sometimes US bases? | Jun 13 00:06 |
_Goblin | I was out fishing today 2 miles off Bournemouth Coast | Jun 13 00:06 |
_Goblin | and yes Northalt is one I believe | Jun 13 00:06 |
schestowitz | I didn't know this until recently. Why don't they just say what these are? | Jun 13 00:06 |
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schestowitz | In Yorkshire they did E-mail surveillance, IIRC | Jun 13 00:06 |
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_Goblin | and on an Xfiles note, they had an involvement (allegedly) in the UFO tracked by a police helicopter that was reported in the mainstream press. | Jun 13 00:07 |
_Goblin | I think.....and this is only a think....that the US train here in Bournmouth near the SBS base. | Jun 13 00:08 |
_Goblin | * not base, training facility | Jun 13 00:08 |
_Goblin | If they do, I think it would probably be the seals. | Jun 13 00:09 |
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schestowitz | Hehe. UFOs | Jun 13 00:10 |
schestowitz | What is the probability? | Jun 13 00:10 |
schestowitz | And why would they not be 100 bigger? Or 100,000 times bigger? Had they evolved separately (by chance) and could evolve to travel so long. | Jun 13 00:11 |
schestowitz | UFO stories make me giggly because it's usually people on drugs with hallucination. Some attribute it to religion and some to drugs | Jun 13 00:12 |
schestowitz | "Can't explain" -> Miracle | Jun 13 00:12 |
balzac | a friend told me he saw aliens while on shrooms | Jun 13 00:13 |
balzac | I asked what did they look like? | Jun 13 00:13 |
balzac | like people, he said, only it seemed i could see through their skin | Jun 13 00:13 |
balzac | I asked, have you considered the possibility it might have been the shrooms? | Jun 13 00:14 |
ThistleWeb | so they have Compwiz enabled | Jun 13 00:14 |
balzac | no, it was aliens. | Jun 13 00:14 |
ThistleWeb | even aliens use Linux | Jun 13 00:14 |
ThistleWeb | that's what's holding NASA back | Jun 13 00:14 |
schestowitz | That's 'new' to me: "Even various flavors of desktop Linux, long used by hobbyists to extract more life from older hardware" http://www.betanews.com/article/The-case-for-smaller-simpler-faster-operating-systems/1244746885 | Jun 13 00:15 |
schestowitz | So Linux was created to make use of crappy PCS? | Jun 13 00:15 |
schestowitz | Or it Scott rewriting history? | Jun 13 00:15 |
schestowitz | balzac: Hehe. | Jun 13 00:16 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: maybe just compsite extension enabled | Jun 13 00:16 |
_Goblin | sorry afk.. | Jun 13 00:16 |
schestowitz | Aliens are a nice fantasy | Jun 13 00:16 |
ugufjhfj_ | NASA is pro-microsoft :( | Jun 13 00:16 |
ThistleWeb | schestowitz: maybe | Jun 13 00:16 |
schestowitz | Many profitable movies made this way. | Jun 13 00:16 |
schestowitz | ugufjhfj_: sometimes Linux too | Jun 13 00:17 |
_Goblin | Some say the movie Independence day was based on fact... | Jun 13 00:17 |
_Goblin | have you considered that the aliens were running vista | Jun 13 00:17 |
schestowitz | There's also a best-selling book | Jun 13 00:17 |
schestowitz | Which is based on fiction | Jun 13 00:17 |
ThistleWeb | actually, jokes aside, NASA do have their cluster cimputing steup on RH I think | Jun 13 00:17 |
_Goblin | thats why it was so easy to infect their machines | Jun 13 00:17 |
schestowitz | And lots of donations -- not just films -- are made from this book | Jun 13 00:17 |
ugufjhfj_ | http://www.worldwidetelescope.org/Home.aspx | Jun 13 00:18 |
schestowitz | Yeah | Jun 13 00:18 |
balzac | for clustered computing, what else are you going to use if not GNU/Linux? | Jun 13 00:18 |
ThistleWeb | dunno about all of NASA | Jun 13 00:18 |
schestowitz | Wierd that | Jun 13 00:18 |
schestowitz | Weird | Jun 13 00:18 |
schestowitz | ugufjhfj_: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/28/microsoft-poisons-nasa/ | Jun 13 00:18 |
balzac | A Microsoft Ballmer Cluster? | Jun 13 00:18 |
_Goblin | what I want to know is why do all UFO's seem to crash in the US? | Jun 13 00:18 |
ThistleWeb | their customer end is pro-MS though | Jun 13 00:18 |
schestowitz | BN comes as result #1 in Google for "boycott nasa". Oops. | Jun 13 00:18 |
ugufjhfj_ | NASA is infected | Jun 13 00:18 |
_Goblin | maybe they are heading to Redmond for a downgrade to XP. | Jun 13 00:19 |
balzac | I'll stick with a Beowulf Cluster of GNU/Linux machines | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | ugufjhfj_: the laptops in space are | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | They got infected for running XP | Jun 13 00:19 |
ThistleWeb | balzac: yep Beowulf, that was it | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | Amazing | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | So much public money | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | For Teflon and 'stuff'..... | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | You'd think they could make or use a better OS than Windows | Jun 13 00:19 |
schestowitz | They use a lot of Fedora in NASA | Jun 13 00:19 |
_Goblin | Watching cursed on BBC1...that dog acts alot like my GNUdog: http://www.twitpic.com/1oyeq | Jun 13 00:21 |
fewa | schestowitz, the NASA "open source" licence is similarly damming of public works | Jun 13 00:22 |
ugufjhfj_ | i can't imagine how a states agency can do partnership with microsoft, and create proprietary stuff with citizen tax | Jun 13 00:25 |
ugufjhfj_ | from nasa.gov: Sorry, you don't have the Windows Media plugin needed to view this video. | Jun 13 00:33 |
balzac | that's so lame! | Jun 13 00:36 |
balzac | is it nasa or is it disney? | Jun 13 00:36 |
balzac | maybe the moon landing was faked. jk | Jun 13 00:37 |
schestowitz | IRC log for yesterday was 1.4MB | Jun 13 00:37 |
schestowitz | This is weird. | Jun 13 00:37 |
balzac | have a good weekend | Jun 13 00:37 |
schestowitz | ugufjhfj_: yes, it's absurd | Jun 13 00:38 |
schestowitz | The whole thing didn't get enough scrutiny | Jun 13 00:38 |
schestowitz | balzac: yes, Neal/Niel Armstrong was on shrooms | Jun 13 00:38 |
schestowitz | "It's one small dope for man.. one...oh, I forgot my line" | Jun 13 00:39 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 13 00:39 |
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schestowitz | "Look!! I can jump higher. I must be high!" | Jun 13 00:39 |
schestowitz | Whoa! | Jun 13 00:40 |
schestowitz | OpenSUSE crisis. | Jun 13 00:40 |
schestowitz | http://www.gnome.org/~federico/news-2009-06.html#11 | Jun 13 00:40 |
_Goblin | Sweet, I'm there. | Jun 13 00:40 |
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mib_6yanqd | Hey guys, check this: http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/ | Jun 13 00:44 |
_Goblin | good find..and proves the theory if there was nothing wrong there would be no need to make an article since it would be obvious. | Jun 13 00:45 |
_Goblin | Jo Shields I presume... | Jun 13 00:46 |
_Goblin | the Mono victim.... | Jun 13 00:46 |
_Goblin | lets take a story, (IMO) imply the mad rantings of others and then play the victim at the end....it would be very good if the audience was under 10 yrs old... | Jun 13 00:47 |
_Goblin | and the article reads to me more like a sales pitch than the heart felt views of the "Martyr of mono" | Jun 13 00:48 |
schestowitz | Yeah, meh. | Jun 13 00:48 |
schestowitz | I only responded because of his attack on us | Jun 13 00:48 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/smears-against-boycott-novell/ | Jun 13 00:49 |
ender2070 | so many pro mono things in the news lately | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | Also against | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | A lot | Jun 13 00:49 |
ender2070 | i think they got it defaulted in debian so you cant vote it out of ubuntu | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | But it's them pushing back for it | Jun 13 00:49 |
_Goblin | don't forget though Jo is the victim..... | Jun 13 00:49 |
_Goblin | lol. | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | Why? | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | I never attacked himpersonally | Jun 13 00:49 |
schestowitz | If anything, Sam did | Jun 13 00:49 |
_Goblin | It was said in jest | Jun 13 00:50 |
schestowitz | http://www.oerc.ox.ac.uk/people/jo-shields | Jun 13 00:50 |
schestowitz | I wrote about the issues | Jun 13 00:50 |
schestowitz | Sometimes you can't escape mentionning names | Jun 13 00:50 |
ender2070 | j shields is a dumbass | Jun 13 00:50 |
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_Goblin | btw the Martyr of Mono is now copyrighted to me...its Jo's new title. | Jun 13 00:50 |
_Goblin | oh look, Mono mentioned and DaemonFC pops up... | Jun 13 00:51 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Mandriva KDE is over 9 GB by the time it's useful | Jun 13 00:51 |
_Goblin | lol | Jun 13 00:51 |
DaemonFC | which is only a couple gigs away from Windows Vista | Jun 13 00:51 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 13 00:51 |
_Goblin | you've got to give them credit... | Jun 13 00:51 |
ender2070 | mandrive does a poor job at it, lol | Jun 13 00:51 |
_Goblin | and Windows is never useful no matter how large it gets. | Jun 13 00:51 |
schestowitz | Mandriva is great | Jun 13 00:51 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva 2009.1 KDE edition is 4 times bigger than Windows XP Professional | Jun 13 00:51 |
ender2070 | XP came out in 2001 | Jun 13 00:52 |
_Goblin | and more than 10 times better | Jun 13 00:52 |
ender2070 | how big was KDE then | Jun 13 00:52 |
DaemonFC | hmmm | Jun 13 00:52 |
DaemonFC | good question | Jun 13 00:52 |
DaemonFC | but most KDE or GNOME distros are at least no bigger than Windows XP | Jun 13 00:52 |
DaemonFC | Madnriva approaches Vista | Jun 13 00:52 |
ender2070 | Kubuntu and Fedora got it on one livecd | Jun 13 00:52 |
_Goblin | What you saying about Vista Daemon? | Jun 13 00:52 |
ender2070 | usefulness included | Jun 13 00:52 |
DaemonFC | I'm saying God damn this thing is fucking huge | Jun 13 00:53 |
ender2070 | slackware has it in 2 cd's | Jun 13 00:53 |
DaemonFC | does that help? | Jun 13 00:53 |
_Goblin | yeah. | Jun 13 00:53 |
_Goblin | what about 7? | Jun 13 00:53 |
ender2070 | you cant compare kde to vista, vista in the end uses 1.28gb of ram without an apps loaded | Jun 13 00:53 |
DaemonFC | Windows 7 is about the same size as Vista | Jun 13 00:53 |
_Goblin | oh dear. | Jun 13 00:53 |
DaemonFC | Vista Ultimate is 18 gigs | Jun 13 00:53 |
DaemonFC | Windows 7 Ultimate is 17 gigs | Jun 13 00:54 |
DaemonFC | it's actually gone down :) | Jun 13 00:54 |
_Goblin | and people pay for this (your words) "f*cking huge " software then? | Jun 13 00:54 |
ender2070 | they removed all the bullshit, it should be smaller :) | Jun 13 00:54 |
_Goblin | about 10k | Jun 13 00:54 |
DaemonFC | well, Windows 7 isntalls all possible components and only activates what you've paid for | Jun 13 00:54 |
_Goblin | I think if you removed the rubbish you would only be left with autoexec.bat | Jun 13 00:54 |
DaemonFC | that way it doesn't make you need a disc to upgrade | Jun 13 00:54 |
mib_6yanqd | I follow that article from Linux's Hater Blog, there are very interesting comments here. | Jun 13 00:55 |
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DaemonFC | Vista didn't do that | Jun 13 00:55 |
DaemonFC | it made the Anytime Upgrade a disaster | Jun 13 00:55 |
ender2070 | windows has activation layers which disable parts of the software if you dont pay for their tiers - thats bad for anyone | Jun 13 00:55 |
DaemonFC | not really | Jun 13 00:55 |
DaemonFC | it makes sense | Jun 13 00:55 |
ender2070 | why is there home premium, ultimate, business, etc | Jun 13 00:55 |
fewa | DaemonFC, people just want a working computer | Jun 13 00:56 |
_Goblin | sort of like a Ballmer menu if you will...starters/maincourse and desert.. | Jun 13 00:56 |
DaemonFC | why does any software have a standard version and a Professional edition once you pay them more money? | Jun 13 00:56 |
fewa | "activation"is a so-called anti-feature | Jun 13 00:56 |
DaemonFC | usually the difference is just a registration code | Jun 13 00:56 |
ender2070 | DaemonFC - exactly - this isnt how software should function | Jun 13 00:56 |
fewa | its a "feature" that you would pay to have removed | Jun 13 00:56 |
ender2070 | free software & open source try to avoid all that cruft | Jun 13 00:57 |
fewa | http://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2007/fall/antifeatures/ | Jun 13 00:57 |
DaemonFC | well, there's just no reason for Mandriva to be so large | Jun 13 00:57 |
DaemonFC | their GNOME edition is not really all that big | Jun 13 00:57 |
ender2070 | Mandriva simply includes their entire software library on dvd's | Jun 13 00:57 |
DaemonFC | it's only like 3 gigs once you add all your drivers and codecs | Jun 13 00:57 |
DaemonFC | so the KDE edition is 300% bigger | Jun 13 00:58 |
ender2070 | so | Jun 13 00:58 |
_Goblin | and? | Jun 13 00:58 |
DaemonFC | it's wasteful and bloated | Jun 13 00:58 |
ender2070 | debian comes on 7 DVD iso's, isnt that big? (mind you they include their repos) | Jun 13 00:58 |
_Goblin | youre talking about ONE distro. | Jun 13 00:58 |
_Goblin | and coming from a Windows user, thats rich. | Jun 13 00:58 |
DaemonFC | there's no reason to pack half of GNOME in there once they have a desktop environment already | Jun 13 00:58 |
fewa | DaemonFC, you just said that wincrap is 17 GBs of bloat | Jun 13 00:58 |
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DaemonFC | Home Premium is 12 | Jun 13 00:59 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 00:59 |
_Goblin | wow | Jun 13 00:59 |
DaemonFC | I'd compare Mandriva more to that | Jun 13 00:59 |
_Goblin | and? | Jun 13 00:59 |
fewa | Linux distrobution are it all | Jun 13 00:59 |
_Goblin | your point is? | Jun 13 00:59 |
fewa | they can be anything | Jun 13 00:59 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : what is the meaning of FC? | Jun 13 00:59 |
fewa | they dont have thse so called anti-features | Jun 13 00:59 |
DaemonFC | features are good, but duplicating everything just for no reason | Jun 13 01:00 |
DaemonFC | is what gets me | Jun 13 01:00 |
_Goblin | FUD'ng Channels? | Jun 13 01:00 |
DaemonFC | they have 3 programs that can play Compact Discs | Jun 13 01:00 |
DaemonFC | Two web browser | Jun 13 01:00 |
_Goblin | oh no | Jun 13 01:00 |
_Goblin | thats terrible | Jun 13 01:00 |
_Hicham_ | Daemon Feature Collector? | Jun 13 01:00 |
DaemonFC | three compositing programs | Jun 13 01:00 |
ender2070 | i stated already you could get kubuntu and fedora 11 on ONE single livecd, which installs onto the HDD and the ISO is 700mb | Jun 13 01:00 |
ender2070 | Vista's ISO is 2gb | Jun 13 01:01 |
DaemonFC | more graphics manipulation software than I care to count | Jun 13 01:01 |
ender2070 | how is that 300% bigger | Jun 13 01:01 |
_Goblin | Stop the world, too much free software.... | Jun 13 01:01 |
fewa | DaemonFC, wincrap isnt even functional out of the box | Jun 13 01:01 |
DaemonFC | Vista's ISO is actually 4.33 GB | Jun 13 01:01 |
_Goblin | wow. | Jun 13 01:01 |
fewa | even with all that bloat | Jun 13 01:01 |
_Goblin | 4.33gb of worthlessness. | Jun 13 01:01 |
DaemonFC | I've reduced Vista's ISO to fit on a CD before | Jun 13 01:01 |
ender2070 | oh, windows 7 is 2gb of an iso | Jun 13 01:01 |
DaemonFC | it's not difficult | Jun 13 01:01 |
ender2070 | sorry | Jun 13 01:01 |
DaemonFC | the voice recognition crap is 1 gig all by itself | Jun 13 01:02 |
_Goblin | I saw a chap on Youtube reduce Vista in a shredder....Ive got the link if you want it. | Jun 13 01:02 |
ender2070 | voice recognition shouldnt be 1gb | Jun 13 01:02 |
fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg1ckCkm8YI | Jun 13 01:02 |
DaemonFC | it is | Jun 13 01:02 |
ender2070 | dragon naturally speaking doesnt take up 1gb and its more complex | Jun 13 01:03 |
DaemonFC | then you can remove Windows Defender and cut over 100 megs out | Jun 13 01:03 |
DaemonFC | between program and support files | Jun 13 01:03 |
fewa | ender2070, not to point out, better | Jun 13 01:03 |
ender2070 | windows defender uses more or less about 20-50mb | Jun 13 01:03 |
_Goblin | DaemonFC what point are you trying to prove here? | Jun 13 01:03 |
ender2070 | that he can distract me long enough from getting food | Jun 13 01:04 |
DaemonFC | there's lots of useless crap in Windows and if you take it all out, it's actually possible to not only fit it on a CD, but integrate your drivers whileyou're at it | Jun 13 01:04 |
_Goblin | wow. | Jun 13 01:04 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 01:04 |
_Goblin | and thats it? | Jun 13 01:04 |
_Goblin | your entire point was based around that? | Jun 13 01:04 |
ender2070 | the windows defender folder on my win7 system uses 500k | Jun 13 01:04 |
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DaemonFC | Windows is about 4 times the size it needs to be for how useful it is | Jun 13 01:04 |
_Goblin | if you download a cracked version, I think you will find it considerably smaller. | Jun 13 01:04 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva is 3 times bigger than it needs to be | Jun 13 01:04 |
ender2070 | go inform mandriva then | Jun 13 01:05 |
_Goblin | so says DaemonFC. | Jun 13 01:05 |
_Goblin | thanks for that. | Jun 13 01:05 |
ender2070 | im sure they are aware of their own issues trying to make a livecd distro with an installer in it | Jun 13 01:05 |
_Goblin | Much as I trust a person who uses the term "f*cking huge" I think we will simply move on... | Jun 13 01:05 |
DaemonFC | Well, I like the LiveCD approach | Jun 13 01:06 |
DaemonFC | because then they can't get carried away | Jun 13 01:06 |
DaemonFC | because they onl yhave 700 megs to work with | Jun 13 01:06 |
ender2070 | yeah | Jun 13 01:06 |
ender2070 | but the two most popular distros work that way | Jun 13 01:06 |
_Goblin | Mandriva 2009 is available on LiveCD.... | Jun 13 01:06 |
DaemonFC | not really | Jun 13 01:06 |
ender2070 | if mandriva 2009 is on livecd, then bam | Jun 13 01:06 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva is only a LiveCD if you have x86 32-bit system | Jun 13 01:06 |
DaemonFC | otherwise you need the DVD | Jun 13 01:06 |
_Goblin | Yep, it was on Linux Format with about 5 other distros | Jun 13 01:07 |
ender2070 | that should tell you they arent very good then | Jun 13 01:07 |
_Goblin | and a load of other utils | Jun 13 01:07 |
ender2070 | switch, vote with ur feet | Jun 13 01:07 |
fewa | DaemonFC, then get fedora, or debian, or ubuntu, or centos, or.... | Jun 13 01:07 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva is only a LiveCD for one arch | Jun 13 01:07 |
DaemonFC | I asked them about it and they replied actually | Jun 13 01:07 |
_Goblin | DaemonFC why not try Puppy or NimbleX | Jun 13 01:07 |
ender2070 | im switching to fedora, i used to use debian but they decided to include tomboy and its diseases | Jun 13 01:08 |
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DaemonFC | because they can only get a few languages on each CD, they actually have to have like 5 CDs to support Mandriva One just on x86 32-bit | Jun 13 01:08 |
_Goblin | or how about AROS? I think thats around 80meg for an ISO of liveCD | Jun 13 01:08 |
DaemonFC | to support X86-64 they'd need 10 images | Jun 13 01:08 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is trying everything | Jun 13 01:08 |
ender2070 | kubuntu and fedora have 64-bit livecd's | Jun 13 01:08 |
DaemonFC | 5 for x86 and 5 for x86-64 | Jun 13 01:08 |
ender2070 | non-dvd versions | Jun 13 01:08 |
fewa | ender2070, there is no mono on my debian system | Jun 13 01:08 |
DaemonFC | I assume that's why Ubuntu got tired of officially hauling around PowerPC | Jun 13 01:09 |
_Goblin | well thats it, my life is over. The Mandriva revelations by DaemonFC shocking.... | Jun 13 01:09 |
ender2070 | fewa - its in squeeze now | Jun 13 01:09 |
fewa | ender2070, im runnin sqeeze | Jun 13 01:09 |
ender2070 | and gnome? | Jun 13 01:09 |
DaemonFC | then they axed their x86-64 ShipIt CDs | Jun 13 01:09 |
fewa | but started with lenny and gnome | Jun 13 01:09 |
fewa | riding testing | Jun 13 01:09 |
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_Goblin | DaemonFC - Can't you grasp that nobody here is in the least bit bothered by your "revelations" | Jun 13 01:09 |
DaemonFC | x86 is the only thing anybody is bothering to properly support | Jun 13 01:09 |
ender2070 | there was a news article today which mentioned tomboy being added to default installs and starts in squeeze | Jun 13 01:10 |
DaemonFC | and it's mainly because of software bloat | Jun 13 01:10 |
_Goblin | we were having a nice discussion about the Martyr of Mono before you turned up with this rubbish. | Jun 13 01:10 |
ender2070 | perhaps hes pro-mono and trying to argue the space issue as a seperate one | Jun 13 01:11 |
DaemonFC | no, Mono should be ditched | Jun 13 01:11 |
fewa | ender2070, cause whats on the CDs is determined by popularity-contest | Jun 13 01:11 |
DaemonFC | the space saves would mean more language packs can fit on each CD | Jun 13 01:11 |
DaemonFC | and they'd only need probably 3 for every arch | Jun 13 01:11 |
_Goblin | Sometimes I think DaemonFC is a bot. He seems blissfully unaware of what people are actually saying.... | Jun 13 01:11 |
_Goblin | he reminds me of Andre Da Costa... | Jun 13 01:12 |
ender2070 | lol | Jun 13 01:12 |
DaemonFC | popularity-contest does not determine what's in Ubuntu | Jun 13 01:12 |
ender2070 | i keep mentioning fedora and ubuntu but its like a brick wall | Jun 13 01:12 |
DaemonFC | because popularity-contest is not even installed or on by default | Jun 13 01:12 |
ender2070 | like anyone cares about mandriva, i personally dont | Jun 13 01:12 |
_Goblin | yep thats just like Andre | Jun 13 01:12 |
fewa | DaemonFC, there is a popcon in ubuntu too | Jun 13 01:12 |
DaemonFC | it's not on | Jun 13 01:12 |
DaemonFC | so the only people who would have it on are people that find it in Synaptic and turn it on | Jun 13 01:12 |
DaemonFC | that's hardly a representative sample | Jun 13 01:13 |
_Goblin | see? | Jun 13 01:13 |
_Goblin | Never quite getting the jist of the conversation. | Jun 13 01:13 |
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DaemonFC | gist you buffoon | Jun 13 01:13 |
DaemonFC | GIST | Jun 13 01:13 |
fewa | always trying to change the topic too | Jun 13 01:13 |
_Goblin | ah... | Jun 13 01:13 |
_Goblin | its quite an advanced bot then. | Jun 13 01:14 |
_Goblin | it can correct... | Jun 13 01:14 |
DaemonFC | as in "May a horse violate you and GIST all over you" | Jun 13 01:14 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 01:14 |
_Goblin | I think thats the first time DaemonFC has "won" any argument here. | Jun 13 01:14 |
ender2070 | i think im gonna make an anti-spyware style of application for debian/ubuntu (and apt-get clones) that removes mono and other nasties | Jun 13 01:14 |
ender2070 | just to shove it in their faces | Jun 13 01:14 |
ender2070 | lol | Jun 13 01:14 |
fewa | http://tim.thechases.com/mononono/ | Jun 13 01:14 |
ender2070 | other than mononono | Jun 13 01:15 |
ender2070 | im talking about an app that makes it look like mono IS a virus | Jun 13 01:15 |
ender2070 | "GNU Defender" or some sorts | Jun 13 01:15 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenSUSE Board Member Steps Down < http://ping.fm/Fg70d > | Jun 13 01:15 | |
DaemonFC | Mono is inefficient with resource use, which negates the fact that the programs written in it are a little smaller on-disk | Jun 13 01:16 |
DaemonFC | it makes Mono entirely inappropriate for low end PCs and netbooks on that alone | Jun 13 01:16 |
DaemonFC | you go Netbook, you're talking maybe as little as 512 megs of RAM | Jun 13 01:17 |
_Goblin | 1gig on this XP one... | Jun 13 01:17 |
_Goblin | although the way it runs you would think it had around 64k | Jun 13 01:17 |
DaemonFC | hopefully Windows 7 will standardize them all with a gig just for the fact that they don't want two different hardware profiles | Jun 13 01:17 |
ender2070 | i have a q6600 @ 3.0ghz with 8gb of ram and 640gb hdd. i still think mono is unnessessary overhead | Jun 13 01:18 |
DaemonFC | you have to gut a Linux distribution to even get it to run at all on 256-512 megs of RAM | Jun 13 01:18 |
_Goblin | whose hoping? I'm certainly not... | Jun 13 01:18 |
DaemonFC | I mean just totally forget about GNOME or KDE | Jun 13 01:18 |
_Goblin | ok.. | Jun 13 01:18 |
DaemonFC | Ubuntu won't even install on less than 256 | Jun 13 01:19 |
ender2070 | sometimes i just purge and run icewm for a little while | Jun 13 01:19 |
DaemonFC | it's not enough to even load the Live CD | Jun 13 01:19 |
_Goblin | Try using Vista with 256 | Jun 13 01:19 |
fewa | DaemonFC, what other systems install on less than 256? | Jun 13 01:19 |
DaemonFC | I'd call 512 megs a realistic minimum for GNOME distros | Jun 13 01:19 |
DaemonFC | XP will install with 64 megs | Jun 13 01:20 |
fewa | have you used vista on 512? | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | you won't enjoy it though :) | Jun 13 01:20 |
_Goblin | Whats Gnome? | Jun 13 01:20 |
fewa | have you actually used a fresh XP? | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | yes | Jun 13 01:20 |
fewa | its useless | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | I've used XP on as little as 128 megs | Jun 13 01:20 |
ender2070 | i used to run XP on a machine at my school with 64mb | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | not really running great, but it will run | Jun 13 01:20 |
ender2070 | and it was an AMD Duron 900mhz | Jun 13 01:20 |
ender2070 | it was brutally slow | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | well yeah | Jun 13 01:20 |
ender2070 | but at least it wasnt win98, which the other pc's had | Jun 13 01:20 |
DaemonFC | I'm jsut saying to use a full featured desktop requires more hardware than to slap XP on it | Jun 13 01:21 |
DaemonFC | which is the reason all these OEMs are demanding XP | Jun 13 01:21 |
ender2070 | i dont know why they dont demand windows 2000 | Jun 13 01:21 |
DaemonFC | they want to totally cheap out on specs | Jun 13 01:22 |
DaemonFC | and XP lets them get away with it | Jun 13 01:22 |
ender2070 | you can run win2k on 32mb ram and have the same application compatibility | Jun 13 01:22 |
DaemonFC | I know, Windows 2000 is a screaming meanie compared to any modern OS | Jun 13 01:22 |
ender2070 | ms probably has thousands of unsold 2000 licenses gathering dust too | Jun 13 01:23 |
DaemonFC | I have Windows 2000 on an older system and it's faster than this one with Vista | Jun 13 01:23 |
ender2070 | for sure | Jun 13 01:23 |
DaemonFC | *facepalm* | Jun 13 01:23 |
ender2070 | i have a 386 that will boot faster than ur 2000 one | Jun 13 01:23 |
fewa | I have a sheevaplug that will boot faster | Jun 13 01:24 |
DaemonFC | Vista makes you fall asleep on the keyboard waiting to boot | Jun 13 01:24 |
DaemonFC | Core 2 Duo with 4 gigs of RAM and it takes it a minute to boot | Jun 13 01:24 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva at least has that on it | Jun 13 01:24 |
DaemonFC | 20-25 seconds from power on to desktop | Jun 13 01:24 |
ender2070 | my ubuntu starts up in under 20 seconds | Jun 13 01:24 |
_Goblin | gentoo for me in about 14 | Jun 13 01:25 |
DaemonFC | KDE is starting to grow on me in some ways | Jun 13 01:25 |
_Goblin | eh? | Jun 13 01:25 |
DaemonFC | I'm probably going to go to KDE 4.3 full time | Jun 13 01:25 |
_Goblin | a fw | Jun 13 01:25 |
_Goblin | a few minutes ago you were slating it..now you like it? | Jun 13 01:25 |
ender2070 | i didnt actually measure it as i didnt think i would be subject to an e-peen contest | Jun 13 01:25 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 01:26 |
_Goblin | DaemonFC, one of us is completely mad...either I have slipped into some sort of wierd deluded reality or you have... | Jun 13 01:26 |
_Goblin | we can't possibly both be sane. | Jun 13 01:26 |
ender2070 | goblin | Jun 13 01:26 |
ender2070 | its you | Jun 13 01:26 |
ender2070 | sorry to say | Jun 13 01:26 |
_Goblin | probably... | Jun 13 01:26 |
ender2070 | you mentioned running gentoo | Jun 13 01:27 |
DaemonFC | maybe we're both insane in an incompatible mannor | Jun 13 01:27 |
DaemonFC | *manner | Jun 13 01:27 |
DaemonFC | like Vista and Linux | Jun 13 01:27 |
ender2070 | Linux is pretty sane | Jun 13 01:27 |
DaemonFC | no, it's really not | Jun 13 01:27 |
DaemonFC | Linux is schizophrenic | Jun 13 01:27 |
ender2070 | to you its not | Jun 13 01:27 |
ender2070 | because you're crazy | Jun 13 01:27 |
_Goblin | I think maybe Ive slipped into some sort of wierd alternate dimension where right is left, 1+2=49 and Vista is actually good. | Jun 13 01:28 |
DaemonFC | well, new users are typically overwhelmed by what a typical Linux setup makes them go through | Jun 13 01:28 |
DaemonFC | so I'm not surprised that distros like Ubuntu which take most of your choice away prevail over the traditional installer | Jun 13 01:29 |
_Goblin | thats sounds like a description of marrage. | Jun 13 01:29 |
DaemonFC | Ubuntu setup is more like Windows | Jun 13 01:29 |
DaemonFC | it has a defined state that you will reach no matter what | Jun 13 01:30 |
_Goblin | So is Mandriva, Mint.... | Jun 13 01:30 |
DaemonFC | nope | Jun 13 01:30 |
_Goblin | Crunchbang | Jun 13 01:30 |
DaemonFC | traditional installers either dump everything there is on you | Jun 13 01:30 |
DaemonFC | or make you wade through package by package | Jun 13 01:30 |
fewa | fedor | Jun 13 01:30 |
_Goblin | I think you are doing a great diservice to average users to suggest they cant get their heads around most Linux installers. | Jun 13 01:30 |
_Goblin | NimbleX | Jun 13 01:31 |
_Goblin | UbuntuSE | Jun 13 01:31 |
DaemonFC | oh right, it's *only* half a dozen file systems, half a dozen desktop environments | Jun 13 01:31 |
_Goblin | Zenwalk. | Jun 13 01:31 |
DaemonFC | 12,000 or so packages | Jun 13 01:31 |
_Goblin | ok thats a joke | Jun 13 01:31 |
_Goblin | not Zenwalk. | Jun 13 01:31 |
_Goblin | Slackware.... | Jun 13 01:32 |
DaemonFC | Ubuntu just tries to be sensible and basic | Jun 13 01:32 |
_Goblin | "Once you try slack you never go back" | Jun 13 01:32 |
DaemonFC | and have most of what a typical user would expect to start with | Jun 13 01:32 |
_Goblin | I disagree.... | Jun 13 01:33 |
_Goblin | you still have to install the Nvidia drivers yourself (or seperately) | Jun 13 01:33 |
DaemonFC | people like having choice taken away from them | Jun 13 01:33 |
_Goblin | Mandriva does that for you. | Jun 13 01:33 |
DaemonFC | no | Jun 13 01:33 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva makes you grab it yourself | Jun 13 01:33 |
DaemonFC | unless you use the live CD | Jun 13 01:33 |
DaemonFC | which isn't an option for decent hardware | Jun 13 01:33 |
_Goblin | and? | Jun 13 01:33 |
fewa | I think you are mistaken DaemonFC | Jun 13 01:34 |
DaemonFC | 32-bit x86 | Jun 13 01:34 |
fewa | you are confusing control with guidance | Jun 13 01:34 |
_Goblin | so do I but Im too tired to argue. | Jun 13 01:34 |
_Goblin | properly | Jun 13 01:34 |
DaemonFC | it will run but it can only see about 2.5-3.2 gigs of RAM | Jun 13 01:34 |
DaemonFC | that's nowhere close to what I have | Jun 13 01:34 |
DaemonFC | so I can't use Mandriva One | Jun 13 01:34 |
schestowitz | Linux servo dies. < http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/locutus/linux-servo-dies-32202 > | Jun 13 01:35 |
_Goblin | DaemonFC: Oh well. You win some you loose some. | Jun 13 01:35 |
DaemonFC | not worth losing half your RAM to save 2 minutes installing drivers | Jun 13 01:36 |
_Goblin | Indeed. | Jun 13 01:36 |
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DaemonXP | desktop going down for a few | Jun 13 01:37 |
_Goblin | You seem to have a few probs keeping connection.... | Jun 13 01:38 |
DaemonXP | just rebooted it | Jun 13 01:38 |
*EDavidBurg is now known as EricW | Jun 13 01:40 | |
_Goblin | Identity crisis or just want a name change? | Jun 13 01:40 |
*EricW is now known as EDavidBurg | Jun 13 01:41 | |
_Goblin | I am cracking up...nothing makes sense... | Jun 13 01:41 |
kentma | oh god, is he still here? | Jun 13 01:42 |
_Goblin | who? | Jun 13 01:42 |
kentma | the Microsoft shill guy | Jun 13 01:42 |
_Goblin | which one? Take your pick.... | Jun 13 01:43 |
schestowitz | Whcih one? | Jun 13 01:43 |
schestowitz | Heh | Jun 13 01:43 |
kentma | Daemon I meant - which others are there? | Jun 13 01:43 |
EDavidBurg | I think they meant me since I changed nicks | Jun 13 01:43 |
ender2070 | theres ms shills here? | Jun 13 01:43 |
_Goblin | coincidently this morning we had a conversation about the names of groups of animals....ie a Murder of Crowes, a confusion of monkeys..etc | Jun 13 01:43 |
_Goblin | I wonder what a collection of MS shills is called? | Jun 13 01:44 |
kentma | a sharabang of shills | Jun 13 01:44 |
_Goblin | lol | Jun 13 01:44 |
kentma | a sh1tload? | Jun 13 01:44 |
ushimitsudoki | An enderle of shills | Jun 13 01:44 |
kentma | nah, too obvious. | Jun 13 01:44 |
_Goblin | I have another one btw....a collection of owls is????? | Jun 13 01:44 |
kentma | a seminary of shills? | Jun 13 01:44 |
ender2070 | i think i should change my name as its too similar to that douche enderle | Jun 13 01:44 |
_Goblin | a parliament. | Jun 13 01:45 |
schestowitz | I'll post some links in the morning. gn | Jun 13 01:45 |
_Goblin | gn | Jun 13 01:45 |
kentma | _Goblin: I have a dictionary of such things downstairs... | Jun 13 01:45 |
ushimitsudoki | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_nouns <-wiki knows all | Jun 13 01:45 |
_Goblin | Kentma, I like your sharabang name.... | Jun 13 01:45 |
_Goblin | I think we should keep that one.... | Jun 13 01:45 |
kentma | _Goblin: thanks... it sort of seems to fit. | Jun 13 01:45 |
_Goblin | yep. :) | Jun 13 01:46 |
kentma | a bit like slartibartfast, sounds really rude without actually being so :-) | Jun 13 01:46 |
_Goblin | lol... | Jun 13 01:46 |
kentma | apparently, Doug Adams started out with "fartiphuckborlz" | Jun 13 01:46 |
_Goblin | so youre a fan...? | Jun 13 01:46 |
kentma | _Goblin: ah, for sure. Dirk Gently was on R4 recently. On my mythtv box now :-) | Jun 13 01:47 |
_Goblin | by any chance a Dwarfer too? | Jun 13 01:47 |
kentma | I rather like Red Dwarf, although in later series it was, at times, a little strained. Interestingly, the 2nd book is a real work of art, though. | Jun 13 01:47 |
kentma | The concept of "better than life" is truly magnificent. | Jun 13 01:48 |
_Goblin | Agreed... | Jun 13 01:48 |
_Goblin | personally my favorite was the Mutton Vindaloo Curry monster. | Jun 13 01:48 |
kentma | ah, yes, that was excellent! | Jun 13 01:48 |
_Goblin | or Duane Dibley | Jun 13 01:49 |
_Goblin | the mans a God. | Jun 13 01:49 |
kentma | :-) | Jun 13 01:49 |
_Goblin | or how can we forget Mr Flibble? | Jun 13 01:49 |
kentma | or rimmer's revision timetable? | Jun 13 01:49 |
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_Goblin | lol | Jun 13 01:50 |
_Goblin | great shows... | Jun 13 01:50 |
kentma | my no2 son liked it so much he insisted on calling one of our PCs rimmer. | Jun 13 01:50 |
_Goblin | I think the easter special hit a little of the magic of the old series... | Jun 13 01:50 |
kentma | mark@giskard:~$ host rimmer | Jun 13 01:50 |
kentma | rimmer.marknet has address 192.168.1.51 | Jun 13 01:50 |
kentma | mark@giskard:~$ | Jun 13 01:50 |
ender2070 | im a fan of orson scott card myself, tho douglas adams is awesome | Jun 13 01:50 |
_Goblin | but I think where it went wrong later on was when they had CGI effects....the whole charm of Dwarf was that it looked so cheap and tacky. | Jun 13 01:50 |
kentma | I tend to agree. It was the screenplay which made it good, not the fx. | Jun 13 01:51 |
kentma | and the acting, which was, in fact, pretty good. | Jun 13 01:51 |
_Goblin | the curry monster wouldnt have been so funny if it had looked realistic... | Jun 13 01:51 |
kentma | ender2070: hence ender, I suppose? | Jun 13 01:52 |
ender2070 | yes | Jun 13 01:52 |
_Goblin | Kentma...are you of the age to remember Tripods? | Jun 13 01:52 |
ender2070 | 2070 ender's birthyear too i think | Jun 13 01:52 |
kentma | agreed. The intelligent toaster... ah, yes tripods, 84-ish. I was an undergrad then. | Jun 13 01:53 |
_Goblin | you are roughly then around my age... | Jun 13 01:53 |
kentma | funny, I don't recall tripods ever being shown again. | Jun 13 01:53 |
_Goblin | classic series... | Jun 13 01:53 |
_Goblin | its on DVD | Jun 13 01:53 |
_Goblin | and HMV have it discounted at the moment. | Jun 13 01:54 |
kentma | I was also a huge fan of Blake's 7, although I was at school when it was on. It was one of terry nation's finest ideas - much copied. | Jun 13 01:54 |
ender2070 | you guys are old | Jun 13 01:54 |
kentma | aha - that's interesting - I might just grab a copy! | Jun 13 01:54 |
kentma | ender2070: yes, sorry! :-) | Jun 13 01:54 |
_Goblin | guilty | Jun 13 01:54 |
ender2070 | i was BORN in 84, lol | Jun 13 01:54 |
fewa | http://2006.1-click.jp/ | Jun 13 01:54 |
_Goblin | How about ......."The Invaders" | Jun 13 01:54 |
kentma | ah, then you're older than my kids :-D | Jun 13 01:54 |
kentma | a fascinating idea - more "contemporary" than most foreign sci fi. More john wyndham than isaac asimov... | Jun 13 01:55 |
_Goblin | Chocky? | Jun 13 01:56 |
kentma | echos of the midwich cookooes | Jun 13 01:56 |
kentma | cuckoos :-) | Jun 13 01:56 |
kentma | more wyndham... | Jun 13 01:56 |
kentma | I was thinking triffids/midwich cuckoos, though :-) | Jun 13 01:57 |
_Goblin | Triffids....yes....Cuckoos...not sure I caught that one... | Jun 13 01:57 |
_Goblin | Terrahawks! | Jun 13 01:57 |
_Goblin | Undergrad 84, you must have watched that! | Jun 13 01:57 |
kentma | ah, "alien" children which can converse telephathically over long distances... post apocalypse, though, | Jun 13 01:58 |
kentma | indeed | Jun 13 01:58 |
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kentma | I used to like the tomorrow people, but mostly 'cos I really fancied the chinese girl on it :-) | Jun 13 01:58 |
kentma | she was *really* cute. | Jun 13 01:58 |
_Goblin | remember the name...can't say I saw it.... | Jun 13 01:58 |
kentma | It wasn't very good, except for... | Jun 13 01:59 |
yuhong | BTW, I switched blog software from MS's Live Spaces to Google Blogspot. | Jun 13 02:01 |
_Goblin | Ive been very happy with Wordpress... | Jun 13 02:01 |
kentma | yuhong: away from MS probably isn't a bad idea. I don't know how they'll stitch you up, but I'm sure they'll try, sometime... | Jun 13 02:01 |
_Goblin | Since most of my bits and pieces are with Google, it would probably make more sense for me, but Im sort of settled with Wordpress now.... | Jun 13 02:02 |
_Goblin | right i must go to bed.... | Jun 13 02:02 |
_Goblin | gn all. | Jun 13 02:02 |
*_Goblin has quit () | Jun 13 02:02 | |
yuhong | I then wrote a blog article on Apple's 64-bit transition and how it got disturbed by the Intel transition. | Jun 13 02:02 |
yuhong | http://yuhongbao.blogspot.com/2009/06/history-of-apples-64-bit-transition-and.html | Jun 13 02:03 |
yuhong | I recently talked about this on this IRC channel which inspired me to write this. | Jun 13 02:03 |
kentma | they were thoroughly side-tracked, but really in the wrong direction. IBM were coming up with cell, and ARM is getting, well, strong :-) | Jun 13 02:04 |
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yuhong | I will write more about this issue on my blog later. | Jun 13 02:10 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tacone] joke of the day http://ur1.ca/5kxk he really got me ! #mono !ubuntu #omg | Jun 13 02:10 | |
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fewa | http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=230092&title=Moment-of-Zen---Pac-Man-Debt-Chart | Jun 13 02:24 |
DaemonXP | http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=230088&title=indecision-2009-everywhere-but | Jun 13 02:27 |
DaemonXP | Europe is going fascist | Jun 13 02:28 |
DaemonXP | who knew? | Jun 13 02:28 |
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Azag | ? | Jun 13 02:38 |
Azag | ByteCorrupto: por el acuerdo con m$? | Jun 13 02:39 |
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ByteCorrupto | ? | Jun 13 02:41 |
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new topic? | Jun 13 04:13 | |
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yuhong | On lobbying, just talking to regulators isn't IMO corruption. | Jun 13 05:36 |
yuhong | But paying them is. | Jun 13 05:36 |
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locutu5 | hello | Jun 13 06:24 |
locutu5 | You out there Roy? | Jun 13 06:27 |
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DaemonFC | Why in the hell are there torrents for Mandriva Powerpack? | Jun 13 06:50 |
DaemonFC | the only difference is media codecs | Jun 13 06:51 |
DaemonFC | are people too dense to add a repository? | Jun 13 06:51 |
oiaohm | Maybe they have machines not internet connected DaemonFC | Jun 13 06:59 |
DaemonFC | that doesn't make it OK to steal it | Jun 13 07:00 |
DaemonFC | they could just save the RPMs to a disc from a computer that does have the internet | Jun 13 07:00 |
oiaohm | Humans are lazy DaemonFC | Jun 13 07:01 |
DaemonFC | Firefox on Mandriva did worse than on Fedora | Jun 13 07:01 |
DaemonFC | Firefox on Linux is scoring lower on Peacekeeper than IE on Windows | Jun 13 07:02 |
DaemonFC | that doesn't seem right | Jun 13 07:02 |
oiaohm | Does seam right. | Jun 13 07:03 |
DaemonFC | there must be something wrong with Peacekeeper because there's no way Firefox on Linux is 4 times slower than on Windows | Jun 13 07:03 |
oiaohm | Mandriva is missing some of the Fedora kernel corrections. | Jun 13 07:03 |
oiaohm | That helps firefox perform better. | Jun 13 07:03 |
DaemonFC | oh wait | Jun 13 07:03 |
DaemonFC | duh | Jun 13 07:04 |
DaemonFC | I'm using 3.0 on Mandriva right now | Jun 13 07:04 |
DaemonFC | Fedora has 3.5b4 | Jun 13 07:04 |
DaemonFC | still ouch | Jun 13 07:04 |
DaemonFC | Firefox 3 on Linux is 820 | Jun 13 07:04 |
oiaohm | 3.0 on Fedora still would be faster than Mandriva | Jun 13 07:04 |
DaemonFC | IE 8 on Windows was like 860 I think | Jun 13 07:04 |
oiaohm | Firefox by pure luck hit lot of kernel and graphical problems in Linux. | Jun 13 07:05 |
DaemonFC | enough to where it's slower than Internet Explorer? | Jun 13 07:05 |
oiaohm | Yep. | Jun 13 07:05 |
DaemonFC | that's bad | Jun 13 07:06 |
DaemonFC | damn!!! | Jun 13 07:06 |
DaemonFC | Opera 10 CREAMS Firefox | Jun 13 07:06 |
oiaohm | Newer versions of kernels reduces problems. | Jun 13 07:06 |
DaemonFC | Opera 10 got 1424 | Jun 13 07:06 |
oiaohm | Same with newer versions of X11 | Jun 13 07:06 |
DaemonFC | FF got 820 | Jun 13 07:06 |
oiaohm | Also complier selection is partly to blame. | Jun 13 07:06 |
oiaohm | Rebuild FF with llvm and you have a speed gain just there. | Jun 13 07:07 |
DaemonFC | I'll probably just make Opera my default til Firefox gets their shit together | Jun 13 07:07 |
DaemonFC | this is unreasonable | Jun 13 07:07 |
oiaohm | Its not firefox fault completely. | Jun 13 07:07 |
DaemonFC | if I wanted to use Internet Explorer, I could just boot into Windows | Jun 13 07:07 |
oiaohm | linux has many areas where it can get faster. | Jun 13 07:08 |
DaemonFC | it's obviously not the fault of Linux that Firefox is a slow piece of shit | Jun 13 07:08 |
DaemonFC | if OPERA can be nearly twice as fast as FF | Jun 13 07:08 |
oiaohm | Opera is using QT that use opengl to avoid X11 troubles. | Jun 13 07:09 |
DaemonFC | QT 3 does? | Jun 13 07:09 |
oiaohm | Yep | Jun 13 07:09 |
DaemonFC | well whatever | Jun 13 07:09 |
oiaohm | FF is using GTK and using general X11 rendering. | Jun 13 07:09 |
*DaemonFC deletes Firefox icons and makes Opera the default in GNOME prefs | Jun 13 07:09 | |
oiaohm | Yes it hurts. | Jun 13 07:09 |
oiaohm | As I say FF manages to hit every single weak point. | Jun 13 07:10 |
oiaohm | fsync filesystem glitch Yep FF hit that. | Jun 13 07:10 |
DaemonFC | Opera 10 actually looks really good | Jun 13 07:10 |
DaemonFC | On Mandriva | Jun 13 07:10 |
oiaohm | X11 poor rendering path. Yep FF hit that. | Jun 13 07:10 |
DaemonFC | blends in with Ia Ora quite well | Jun 13 07:11 |
oiaohm | Basically Firefox is a good item to watch to see some of the internal improvements coming. | Jun 13 07:12 |
DaemonFC | Opera really kills Firefox on Canvas | Jun 13 07:12 |
DaemonFC | the tables have turned | Jun 13 07:13 |
DaemonFC | I used to not want to have anything to do with Opera on Linux | Jun 13 07:13 |
DaemonFC | but now Firefox is the one with severe problems | Jun 13 07:14 |
oiaohm | Not severe. Most of the solutions to Firefox's problems exist just not in distributions yet. | Jun 13 07:14 |
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oiaohm | The head ache is getting all the dri2 drivers out there. | Jun 13 07:15 |
DaemonFC | oiaohm: http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3830/screenshotlwg.png | Jun 13 07:15 |
DaemonFC | I'm not bullshitting here | Jun 13 07:16 |
DaemonFC | Opera rapes Firefox on Linux | Jun 13 07:16 |
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RMS understands government blacklists, " Restricting specific people's activities is punishment, whether you call it that or not; punishing people without convicting them of a crime cannot be excused." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#12 June 2009 (Judgment puts future of control orders in doubt) | Jun 13 07:19 | |
let's hope for an outbreak of commons sense on "terrorist watch lists" soon. | Jun 13 07:19 | |
oiaohm | Currently waiting on 2.6.30 kernel to build DaemonFC | Jun 13 07:24 |
DaemonFC | Fred Phelps should be convicted of Crimes Against Humanity | Jun 13 07:25 |
DaemonFC | the UK banning the son of a bitch was light compared to what needs done to him | Jun 13 07:25 |
DaemonFC | declaring him persona non grata is just a show of good taste if you ask me | Jun 13 07:26 |
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DaemonFC | unfortunately Firefox has become the Internet Explorer of Linux :P | Jun 13 07:40 |
DaemonFC | slow, stupid, and so deeply rooted in that it's hard to get rid of without taking out half the system including the help center | Jun 13 07:40 |
oiaohm | So you are running gnome. | Jun 13 07:46 |
oiaohm | I run kde it has very little tied to Firefox | Jun 13 07:47 |
DaemonFC | Well, unfortunately KDE is its own can of worms | Jun 13 07:48 |
DaemonFC | but it's getting closer to not being all that bad | Jun 13 07:49 |
DaemonFC | by 4.3 I'm sure all the worst problems will be behind them | Jun 13 07:49 |
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schestowitz | http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-13-008-35-OS-CY | Jun 13 08:11 |
DaemonFC | oh yay | Jun 13 08:15 |
DaemonFC | Novell ads on my blog | Jun 13 08:15 |
DaemonFC | maybe I should just go all Harry Potter and refer to them as "The distro who shall not be named" | Jun 13 08:16 |
DaemonFC | fucking Google ads | Jun 13 08:16 |
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schestowitz | Novell? What context? | Jun 13 08:21 |
schestowitz | I see you ditched "XP" | Jun 13 08:21 |
DaemonFC | different computer | Jun 13 08:22 |
schestowitz | Red Hat: Go big or play it safe? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10262641-16.html | Jun 13 08:22 |
DaemonFC | actually, the only thing I mentioned was Fedora in that post | Jun 13 08:22 |
EDavidBurg | My 16gb flash drive got here today | Jun 13 08:22 |
EDavidBurg | woot | Jun 13 08:22 |
DaemonFC | and how to go about building Sauerbraten since they don't package it | Jun 13 08:22 |
DaemonFC | https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/37579 | Jun 13 08:30 |
DaemonFC | rofl | Jun 13 08:30 |
DaemonFC | "In order to solve this bug, I suggest to add manually a few choosen bugs in Dapper. I also suggest that we don't install X as a default. Lynx and mutt should replace Firefox and Evolution as default. In order to cope with the freesoftware spirit, you would be prompted to accept the full GPL each time you log in or you start an application. The login sound would be replaced by "Free Software Song" and the official documentation w | Jun 13 08:30 |
DaemonFC | the "Linux Kernel development" book." | Jun 13 08:30 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Canonical Looking for KDE Developer < http://ping.fm/UfgTP > | Jun 13 08:30 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linus: "My real "work" is not really writing code any more, and hasn't been for a long time." http://ping.fm/ytzNp | Jun 13 08:30 | |
DaemonFC | though Lynx and Mutt are definitely less bloated... | Jun 13 08:31 |
DaemonFC | he may be onto something | Jun 13 08:31 |
schestowitz | Benchmarks: gtk+ engines revisited < http://blogs.gentoo.org/nightmorph/2009/06/12/benchmarks-gtk-engines-revisited > | Jun 13 08:34 |
DaemonFC | I'd really like to know why anyone in 2009 would check their email from a command line | Jun 13 08:34 |
DaemonFC | actually, no I wouldn't | Jun 13 08:34 |
schestowitz | http://celettu.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/fedora-11-no-review/ | Jun 13 08:35 |
schestowitz | Shame really... F10 was better | Jun 13 08:35 |
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schestowitz | Linus uses pine | Jun 13 08:36 |
*DaemonFC replaces schestowitz's GTK+ engine with Redmond95 | Jun 13 08:36 | |
*DaemonFC then installs IEs For Linux and makes it his default browser | Jun 13 08:36 | |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 08:36 |
DaemonFC | yeah, I didn't have the best of hopes for F11 when the most compelling features were things nobody would notice even if they went well | Jun 13 08:37 |
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DaemonFC | the largest difference between most distros at the user level are what theme they default to | Jun 13 08:38 |
DaemonFC | ideally nobody should ever even have to know what RPM is | Jun 13 08:38 |
DaemonFC | or what Dpkg is | Jun 13 08:38 |
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DaemonFC | the fact that most Linux users can even tell you shows that something is very wrong | Jun 13 08:39 |
schestowitz | No. | Jun 13 08:39 |
DaemonFC | nobody should have to care | Jun 13 08:39 |
schestowitz | People who use Windows may not know Java either | Jun 13 08:39 |
DaemonFC | it should be "I click it it works, the end" | Jun 13 08:40 |
schestowitz | It works | Jun 13 08:40 |
schestowitz | You're just trolling. | Jun 13 08:40 |
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DaemonFC | all too often it fails with some bizarre error | Jun 13 08:40 |
schestowitz | No. | Jun 13 08:40 |
DaemonFC | and you have to go hunt down whatever the holdup is | Jun 13 08:40 |
schestowitz | FUD. | Jun 13 08:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/qVwWH People must remember that MS is unique here due to 90s crimes. This is a lot of spin. | Jun 13 08:40 | |
DaemonFC | and that's how you learn all the gruesome details | Jun 13 08:40 |
DaemonFC | or your distro refuses to package it for whatever reason | Jun 13 08:41 |
DaemonFC | and so that falls on you to compile it | Jun 13 08:41 |
DaemonFC | (or switch to Ubuntu) | Jun 13 08:41 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 13 08:41 |
DaemonFC | Fedora and Sauerbraten are a good example "zOMG!!!1111 Teh artwork isn't FREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!111" | Jun 13 08:42 |
DaemonFC | time to bust out gcc-c++ | Jun 13 08:42 |
DaemonFC | they have a Virtual Richard Stallman that tells you what's non-free on your system, I should be an ass and make a Virtual Steve Ballmer | Jun 13 08:44 |
DaemonFC | that lists what's non-free and congratulates the user | Jun 13 08:44 |
schestowitz | I'm just going to ignore you cause you troll | Jun 13 08:45 |
DaemonFC | then it asks for a licensing fee for Mono | Jun 13 08:45 |
DaemonFC | which will be added the next time they swipe their card at Walmart | Jun 13 08:46 |
schestowitz | http://linuxpower.ismywebsite.com/?p=361 .. | Jun 13 08:47 |
DaemonFC | VLC performs pretty well on Mandriva | Jun 13 08:49 |
DaemonFC | unusually well | Jun 13 08:49 |
schestowitz | "While my ATI card works great in Ubuntu, I cannot say the same quite yet when I use it in my preferred Distro of Arch Linux. The driver install process is quite simple; instead of installing the “nvidia” package I installed the “xf86-video-ati” package. This gave me my usual looking snappy desktop. But as I learned later, ATI is not the most Linux-friendly piece of hardware out there." | Jun 13 08:50 |
schestowitz | http://www.customdistros.com/2009/06/ati-brought-me-solutions-as-well-as-problems/ | Jun 13 08:50 |
DaemonFC | well no shit | Jun 13 08:51 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 13 08:51 |
DaemonFC | that's why my laptop is on XP | Jun 13 08:51 |
DaemonFC | there's no Linux driver that works right for the ATI chipset in it | Jun 13 08:51 |
DaemonFC | so they just heat up the CPU to where you could fry an egg on it | Jun 13 08:52 |
schestowitz | Will Linux and Mac Desktop Adoption Ever Reach the 20 of the 80/20 Rule? < http://www.itworld.com/small-business/69222/will-linux-and-mac-desktop-adoption-ever-reach-20-8020-rule > | Jun 13 08:52 |
schestowitz | This is stupid. Nothing lasts forever. | Jun 13 08:52 |
schestowitz | To assume Windows will always be there is to assume slavery too ought to have lasted today | Jun 13 08:53 |
DaemonFC | Windows will be around for some time to come | Jun 13 08:53 |
DaemonFC | probably well into the next decade at the very least | Jun 13 08:54 |
DaemonFC | to think it will just disappear is naive | Jun 13 08:54 |
oiaohm | Really none of us have a crystal ball. | Jun 13 08:54 |
DaemonFC | I'm just saying they could go for years just on the inertia they have | Jun 13 08:55 |
DaemonFC | even assuming it does start dying down | Jun 13 08:55 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] PCLinuxOS Appstore Launched < http://ping.fm/HV3pA > | Jun 13 08:55 | |
oiaohm | Same was said about apple in desktop publishing at one point. | Jun 13 08:55 |
oiaohm | The inertia MS has could vaporize very quickly. | Jun 13 08:56 |
DaemonFC | they have themselves dug in to last for a while assuming everything goes wrong that can | Jun 13 08:56 |
schestowitz | Hypnosis. | Jun 13 08:56 |
schestowitz | "Microsoft is rich!!" | Jun 13 08:57 |
schestowitz | [so why is it borrowing money?] | Jun 13 08:57 |
schestowitz | "Windows is on 99.99% of desktops?" | Jun 13 08:57 |
DaemonFC | it's on 89% | Jun 13 08:57 |
schestowitz | [So why does Ballmer slide show it with about 7% market share?] | Jun 13 08:57 |
DaemonFC | last time I checked | Jun 13 08:57 |
DaemonFC | which is actually an improvement , it peaked at around 96% | Jun 13 08:57 |
schestowitz | "Net Application sez this and that" | Jun 13 08:57 |
schestowitz | [so why does Net Applications admit their its OWN numbers are incorrect?] | Jun 13 08:58 |
DaemonFC | losing most of the customers that leave to Apple | Jun 13 08:58 |
oiaohm | Apple has never been able to take MS on in business due to lack of centeral management of clients. | Jun 13 08:58 |
oiaohm | Linux and Apple in theory could get that as the same solution. | Jun 13 08:58 |
schestowitz | Linux and Apple work together alright | Jun 13 08:59 |
schestowitz | Samba and all | Jun 13 08:59 |
schestowitz | Put some Macs, some Linux, integrate with UNIX | Jun 13 08:59 |
schestowitz | Many things Macs won't do Linux will be able to handle and fill the gap | Jun 13 08:59 |
schestowitz | Not just server tasks either. | Jun 13 08:59 |
oiaohm | And vice verser. | Jun 13 08:59 |
DaemonFC | once a company has a Mac version, it's not all that hard to get a Linux version running | Jun 13 08:59 |
schestowitz | What on a desktop can Macs do that linux can't? MS office | Jun 13 09:00 |
DaemonFC | so more Mac users is a good thing for Linux | Jun 13 09:00 |
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schestowitz | Even MS Office runs in Linux if someone wants | Jun 13 09:00 |
oiaohm | This is why MS many not last 5 years. | Jun 13 09:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Firefox 3.0.11 was downloaded about 150 million times in the last 24 hours." http://ping.fm/lEdLa | Jun 13 09:00 | |
oiaohm | Because they will not be facing a fragmented system. | Jun 13 09:00 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: They have the whole "ready to go" advantage | Jun 13 09:00 |
oiaohm | They will be facing a system build on standards that join everything up into a usable system. | Jun 13 09:01 |
DaemonFC | Linux just doesn't unless you get a paid version or at least one that makes it simple on the user | Jun 13 09:01 |
DaemonFC | even if you got Mandriva Powerpack, you still need PLF stuff before you can encode to most formats in use today | Jun 13 09:02 |
DaemonFC | so it's kind of pointless | Jun 13 09:02 |
oiaohm | And how much of that is required by business. | Jun 13 09:02 |
DaemonFC | Powerpack is really more of a donation to Mandriva than a practical upgrade to Free | Jun 13 09:02 |
DaemonFC | it has the Fluendo playback pack, some freeware, and some trial versions of stuff | Jun 13 09:04 |
DaemonFC | Cedega used to be the full version, now jsut a trial | Jun 13 09:04 |
DaemonFC | LightZone is totally worth buying from them though if you need something that can take on Photoshop | Jun 13 09:05 |
DaemonFC | http://store.mandriva.com/product_info.php?products_id=399 | Jun 13 09:06 |
DaemonFC | yeah, there it is | Jun 13 09:06 |
DaemonFC | that's basically the best you'll do on Linux for graphics work | Jun 13 09:06 |
DaemonFC | professional-quality that is | Jun 13 09:06 |
oiaohm | The point not all users in a business need to do that. | Jun 13 09:08 |
oiaohm | Lot of workers are just data processes. | Jun 13 09:08 |
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DaemonFC | someone asked what can the Mac do that Linux is not generally known to do well | Jun 13 09:09 |
schestowitz | Mandriva earns from large contracts | Jun 13 09:09 |
schestowitz | Governments, schools, etc. | Jun 13 09:09 |
schestowitz | Russia, Brazil, France.. | Jun 13 09:09 |
DaemonFC | yeah, there's no profit selling to one user here and one over there | Jun 13 09:09 |
DaemonFC | it's been tried | Jun 13 09:10 |
DaemonFC | it doesn't work | Jun 13 09:10 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Palm's Linux phone runs Doom. http://ping.fm/stV9m | Jun 13 09:10 | |
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DaemonFC | so does Rockbox | Jun 13 09:12 |
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DaemonFC | http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/456/screenshothxn.png | Jun 13 09:14 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/EBDtk - Editor's Note: Ubuntu Is Not Our Savior | Jun 13 09:15 | |
DaemonFC | Codeina is actually useful if not a bit irritating | Jun 13 09:16 |
DaemonFC | it will offer you the right codecs but it always lists "Buy from Fluendo" before the packages in your repo | Jun 13 09:16 |
schestowitz | MSI garbage.. http://blog.f-seidel.de/?p=99 | Jun 13 09:19 |
schestowitz | Fedora 11 dropped the ball, that's why it's great to have many distros < http://blog.jjtcomputing.co.uk/2009/06/12/fedora-11/ > | Jun 13 09:20 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KPhotoAlbum - now open for new contributions < http://ping.fm/2oo7k > Good way to help popular programs and code for fun. | Jun 13 09:20 | |
schestowitz | http://users.linpro.no/ingvar/amarok/ | Jun 13 09:21 |
DaemonFC | Kubuntu has gotten surprisingly better but still has weak package management | Jun 13 09:21 |
DaemonFC | KPackageKit does not list all available packages | Jun 13 09:21 |
DaemonFC | and this leaves you with hidden packages which are in your repo but can only be installed if you know they're there, directly through apt-get | Jun 13 09:22 |
DaemonFC | WHY does nobody just port Synaptic to QT? | Jun 13 09:23 |
DaemonFC | it would be so much better and it would have Kubuntu using the same package system as Ubuntu | Jun 13 09:23 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dutch government using more Free software: http://ping.fm/jALhC | Jun 13 09:25 | |
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schestowitz | I'll get working on some daily links | Jun 13 09:29 |
DaemonFC | Mandriva really startled me with 2009 Spring | Jun 13 09:29 |
DaemonFC | everything just works so well | Jun 13 09:29 |
DaemonFC | they even made GNOME not ugly | Jun 13 09:30 |
DaemonFC | well, that's been the case ever since Ia Ora | Jun 13 09:30 |
schestowitz | Digital Tipping Point: Kina Grannis, YouTube celebrity 01 (2007) http://www.archive.org/download/e-dv999_oa_gotta_digg_hq_001.ogg/e-dv999_oa_001.ogv | Jun 13 09:31 |
schestowitz | [OGG] | Jun 13 09:31 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft exec quits. http://ping.fm/jzuUu | Jun 13 10:05 | |
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schestowitz | http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Black-Duck-Software-1002070.html I saw it earlier. No smoke though. Am I missing something? | Jun 13 10:18 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @schestowitz: "Firefox 3.0.11 was downloaded about 150 million times in the last 24 hours." http://ping.fm/lEdLa | Jun 13 11:00 | |
DaemonFC | auto updates will do that | Jun 13 11:05 |
DaemonFC | in other news, IE 8 was downloaded about 80 bazillion times through Windows Update | Jun 13 11:05 |
DaemonFC | making it all kinds of crazy delicious by pure fabrication of numbers | Jun 13 11:05 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 11:05 |
DaemonFC | seriously though, they make it sound like people are going crazy and downloading it like there's no tomorrow over a security patch blob | Jun 13 11:06 |
DaemonFC | not because Firefox is programmed to auto update | Jun 13 11:07 |
DaemonFC | speaking of security | Jun 13 11:07 |
DaemonFC | this one patches 9 security holes in Firefox, including 4 critical | Jun 13 11:08 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 11:08 |
DaemonFC | and 1 arbitrary code execution | Jun 13 11:08 |
DaemonFC | http://www.mozilla.org/security/announce/2009/mfsa2009-29.html | Jun 13 11:08 |
DaemonFC | (my favorite) | Jun 13 11:09 |
DaemonFC | Firefox is very much as dangerous as MSIE, they just have a better turn around time with patches and the auto updates get them out before a malicious person can study the patch and make an expoit based off of it | Jun 13 11:10 |
DaemonFC | Opera on the other hand has far fewer vulnerabilities in the first place | Jun 13 11:11 |
DaemonFC | if you follow Secunia, you'll see a pattern | Jun 13 11:11 |
DaemonFC | http://secunia.com/advisories/35331/ | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | Mozilla Firefox Multiple Vulnerabilities | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | Impact: Security Bypass | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | Spoofing | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | Exposure of sensitive information | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | DoS | Jun 13 11:12 |
DaemonFC | System access | Jun 13 11:12 |
oiaohm | The funny thing is when you look at effected OS's. | Jun 13 11:13 |
oiaohm | Lot of FF Vulnerabilities don't effect Linux or OS X | Jun 13 11:13 |
DaemonFC | they could easily | Jun 13 11:14 |
DaemonFC | that arbitrary code execution one could wipe out your home folder on Linux | Jun 13 11:14 |
DaemonFC | with a javascript | Jun 13 11:14 |
oiaohm | dep | Jun 13 11:14 |
DaemonFC | that's not going to hel[p | Jun 13 11:14 |
DaemonFC | *help | Jun 13 11:14 |
oiaohm | Blocks still a lot of the bugs. | Jun 13 11:15 |
DaemonFC | Opera 9 http://secunia.com/advisories/product/10615/ | Jun 13 11:15 |
DaemonFC | Unpatched 0% (0 of 22 Secunia advisories) | Jun 13 11:15 |
DaemonFC | that's pretty good that 9.x has been out since like 2005 I think | Jun 13 11:16 |
DaemonFC | and only 22 vulnerabilities and all patched | Jun 13 11:17 |
DaemonFC | Firefox and MSIE patch at least 10 a month | Jun 13 11:17 |
DaemonFC | so far MSIE 8 has had 8 vulnerabilities | Jun 13 11:18 |
DaemonFC | and has 1 unpatched | Jun 13 11:18 |
DaemonFC | MSIE 7 has had 84 and has 8 unpatched | Jun 13 11:19 |
oiaohm | 35331 test code does not work with dep enabled because it protects the java /javascript bridge flaw. | Jun 13 11:19 |
DaemonFC | MSIE 6 has 154 with 21 unpatched | Jun 13 11:19 |
DaemonFC | that's fairly disturbing :P | Jun 13 11:19 |
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DaemonFC | but if you look by sheer numbers, IE 7 has been out 3 years, and IE 6 has been out 8 years | Jun 13 11:20 |
maxstirner | http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/mono-in-the-default-install/#comment-40 <- this is great: "Who do you guys think you are? OpenSuse?" | Jun 13 11:21 |
DaemonFC | so IE 6 has had 25.6 security holes discovered per year on average | Jun 13 11:21 |
DaemonFC | and IE 7 has had 28 | Jun 13 11:21 |
DaemonFC | so statistically, IE 7 is not safer than IE 6 | Jun 13 11:22 |
oiaohm | Mozilla quite common to get to 0 unpatched. | Jun 13 11:22 |
oiaohm | IE for some reason never is able to reach that. | Jun 13 11:22 |
DaemonFC | but Firefox is more dangerous yet | Jun 13 11:23 |
DaemonFC | Firefox 3 has been out almost exactly on year | Jun 13 11:23 |
oiaohm | How do you say that. | Jun 13 11:23 |
DaemonFC | with 88 security holes | Jun 13 11:23 |
DaemonFC | meaning it's 4 times more dangerous than IE 6 | Jun 13 11:23 |
DaemonFC | statistically | Jun 13 11:23 |
oiaohm | again this is a difference. | Jun 13 11:23 |
DaemonFC | *one | Jun 13 11:23 |
oiaohm | Not all IE flaws get reported. | Jun 13 11:24 |
DaemonFC | there's more people looking to exploit IE | Jun 13 11:24 |
DaemonFC | and a lot of them get discovered with live attack code | Jun 13 11:24 |
oiaohm | You find a lot on secunia on firefox that are reported by Mozilla themselves. | Jun 13 11:24 |
DaemonFC | there have been a few attack sites set up for Firefox | Jun 13 11:24 |
DaemonFC | but it was patched quick enough that they went unnoticed | Jun 13 11:24 |
oiaohm | Yet none from MS. | Jun 13 11:25 |
oiaohm | So allowance for bias has to be applied. | Jun 13 11:25 |
DaemonFC | still doesn't explain why Opera has averages only 5-6 per year | Jun 13 11:25 |
DaemonFC | *averaged | Jun 13 11:26 |
DaemonFC | while Microsoft averages 25-28 | Jun 13 11:26 |
DaemonFC | and Mozilla almost 90 | Jun 13 11:26 |
DaemonFC | Of course Mozilla reports their own flaws | Jun 13 11:27 |
DaemonFC | they're open source, it would look strange if they were fixing them in silence and trying to keep a lid on it | Jun 13 11:28 |
oiaohm | Mozilla numbers are explainable. | Jun 13 11:29 |
oiaohm | Microsoft no so much. | Jun 13 11:29 |
oiaohm | Lot of Mozilla reported flaws are not that exploitable. | Jun 13 11:30 |
oiaohm | The big problem with flaw numbers is everyone is not playing by the same rules DaemonFC | Jun 13 11:34 |
oiaohm | Yep my old firefox 3.0 picked up a nice 15 percent boost in performance switching to 2.6.30 kernel | Jun 13 11:40 |
oiaohm | From 2.6.28 | Jun 13 11:40 |
oiaohm | Ok not enough to catch IE. | Jun 13 11:41 |
oiaohm | I am still running old X11. | Jun 13 11:41 |
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trmanco | yeah, IE is closed source and not even like that they can protect there users | Jun 13 11:45 |
trmanco | in firefox anybody can take a peak an see if it has vulns | Jun 13 11:45 |
trmanco | everything is/gets public, it's like like IE | Jun 13 11:46 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] n410c out of action. adapter cable plastic melted! fixable with soldering iron. now on @arkadyrose's dell c610. | Jun 13 11:50 | |
trmanco | http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.evangelism/browse_thread/thread/b4b6017edc1c27f1# | Jun 13 11:55 |
schestowitz | Microsoft lies about patches | Jun 13 11:58 |
schestowitz | It's well recorded that they do this | Jun 13 11:58 |
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oiaohm | Right looks Like I have found my first annoyance with 2.6.30 Linux kernel. Need to ionice fuse filesystems when using a media player off them so media player does not end up stuck without data. | Jun 13 12:10 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I am now http://facebook.com/davidgerard if you care. | Jun 13 12:10 | |
DaemonFC | http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6572/snapshot1ftf.png | Jun 13 12:10 |
DaemonFC | my Kubuntu desktop | Jun 13 12:11 |
oiaohm | The click is gone from when opening terminals with 2.6.30 | Jun 13 12:19 |
trmanco | wtf | Jun 13 12:19 |
trmanco | weren't you a kde hater/basher? | Jun 13 12:20 |
oiaohm | Who better to hate than a user. | Jun 13 12:20 |
trmanco | "The current thusnelda encoder is somewhere between | Jun 13 12:21 |
trmanco | xvid and x264." | Jun 13 12:21 |
trmanco | it looks nice and slick | Jun 13 12:21 |
DaemonFC | http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8639/screenshotnrl.png | Jun 13 12:25 |
DaemonFC | and Mandriva | Jun 13 12:25 |
trmanco | using opera hun | Jun 13 12:26 |
DaemonFC | mmhm | Jun 13 12:27 |
trmanco | and banshee I see | Jun 13 12:27 |
maxstirner | yuck | Jun 13 12:27 |
maxstirner | :d | Jun 13 12:27 |
DaemonFC | http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/6347/screenshothds.png | Jun 13 12:28 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 13 12:28 |
trmanco | ... | Jun 13 12:28 |
trmanco | it looks like e ripoff of rhythmbox | Jun 13 12:29 |
DaemonFC | nah | Jun 13 12:31 |
DaemonFC | Banshee actually has better ripping options ;) | Jun 13 12:31 |
DaemonFC | heh | Jun 13 12:31 |
trmanco | lol | Jun 13 12:31 |
DaemonFC | fuck gnote, port Banshee to C++ | Jun 13 12:32 |
DaemonFC | something useful | Jun 13 12:32 |
trmanco | yeah | Jun 13 12:32 |
trmanco | except for the fuck gnote part... | Jun 13 12:32 |
DaemonFC | well, it's not how I would have prioritized porting things off Mono | Jun 13 12:32 |
trmanco | I just don't use rhythmbox because it has no Eq | Jun 13 12:32 |
DaemonFC | but hell, it'sthem doing it, so their call | Jun 13 12:32 |
trmanco | banshee might be harder to port | Jun 13 12:33 |
schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLeztJkhi4U | Jun 13 12:33 |
DaemonFC | probably | Jun 13 12:33 |
DaemonFC | much more complicated program | Jun 13 12:33 |
schestowitz | We already have amarok | Jun 13 12:33 |
schestowitz | No need to port cra* | Jun 13 12:33 |
DaemonFC | unfortunately that's QT/KDE | Jun 13 12:34 |
MinceR | "unfortunately"? | Jun 13 12:34 |
DaemonFC | right, Banshee is the only native GNOME app that matches up to Amarok | Jun 13 12:34 |
trmanco | I'm afraid that's true | Jun 13 12:34 |
trmanco | :| | Jun 13 12:34 |
DaemonFC | it would take 161 megs of disk space to bring in Amarok and its dependencies | Jun 13 12:35 |
DaemonFC | it takes 12 megs to bring in Banshee | Jun 13 12:35 |
MinceR | you only need to bring in qt and kdelibs once, then you can stop complaining about qt/kde apps | Jun 13 12:35 |
schestowitz | Hehe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8asQkegV_wk&NR=1 | Jun 13 12:35 |
DaemonFC | I don't want, use, or need any | Jun 13 12:36 |
DaemonFC | if I did want KDE on this computer I would put it on this computer | Jun 13 12:36 |
DaemonFC | http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5482/screenshot1hmh.png | Jun 13 12:36 |
DaemonFC | besides | Jun 13 12:36 |
DaemonFC | Amarok wants to bring in most of KDE | Jun 13 12:37 |
DaemonFC | look at that pic | Jun 13 12:37 |
trmanco | I use Audacious, it's the only light fast and great app that has a proper Eq systema | Jun 13 12:37 |
trmanco | system* | Jun 13 12:37 |
MinceR | i use audacious too | Jun 13 12:37 |
MinceR | because of its wide format support | Jun 13 12:37 |
trmanco | :-) | Jun 13 12:37 |
DaemonFC | whenever I use a KDE distro it seems like I always end up with half of GNOME anyway | Jun 13 12:38 |
benJIman | DaemonFC: You do realise that even at minimum wage people earn 150gigabytes per hour? | Jun 13 12:38 |
DaemonFC | but when I use GNOME, I don't need any of KDE | Jun 13 12:38 |
benJIman | 150gb costs less than a single meal. | Jun 13 12:38 |
DaemonFC | right, but I still don't feel like making a damned mess | Jun 13 12:38 |
benJIman | So 150mb is nothing. | Jun 13 12:38 |
schestowitz | *LOL* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRgTxwBYZqM&NR=1 | Jun 13 12:38 |
trmanco | I just noticed | Jun 13 12:39 |
trmanco | FC and not XP | Jun 13 12:40 |
trmanco | heh | Jun 13 12:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @fta: Chromifox Extreme => http://is.gd/10HIZ :) #chromium | Jun 13 12:40 | |
DaemonFC | "I wish I could fly like normal" | Jun 13 12:41 |
DaemonFC | too funny | Jun 13 12:41 |
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trmanco | :) | Jun 13 12:42 |
trmanco | my isp sucks at privacy | Jun 13 12:42 |
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trmanco | neat | Jun 13 12:43 |
DaemonFC | hmmm, I wonder if Banshee will ever play DVDs | Jun 13 12:47 |
DaemonFC | it can play video files | Jun 13 12:47 |
oiaohm | Banshee you have the .net runtime. | Jun 13 12:50 |
schestowitz | George Carlin: The Ten Commandments < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkRYaMiP4K8&feature=related > | Jun 13 12:54 |
schestowitz | trmanco: yes, he's trollin' | Jun 13 12:54 |
maxstirner | schestowitz: christians are such easy targets for comedy ;) | Jun 13 12:56 |
schestowitz | I think it's any religion in general | Jun 13 12:57 |
schestowitz | But Carlin is brilliant in general | Jun 13 12:57 |
schestowitz | His skit on war are funny | Jun 13 12:57 |
maxstirner | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk <- i like bill hicks | Jun 13 12:58 |
*schestowitz looks | Jun 13 12:59 | |
maxstirner | unfortunately he died of cancer in early 90s.. | Jun 13 13:00 |
DaemonFC | yes | Jun 13 13:02 |
DaemonFC | they don't sue like Scientology does | Jun 13 13:02 |
DaemonFC | so kind of them | Jun 13 13:02 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 13:02 |
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schestowitz | maxstirner: oh, I see... | Jun 13 13:05 |
schestowitz | I heard some of those jokes before | Jun 13 13:05 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I got some messages earlier from the system saying it was checking the security status | Jun 13 13:05 |
DaemonFC | and that everything was OK | Jun 13 13:05 |
DaemonFC | something new in Mandriva? | Jun 13 13:05 |
schestowitz | "He put em there [dinosaurs] to test our faith.." | Jun 13 13:05 |
maxstirner | god is testing us is a classic | Jun 13 13:06 |
maxstirner | he actually did these flying saucer tours where he deliberately went to do educate the hillbilly US south | Jun 13 13:06 |
schestowitz | I think it's like the "miracle" placeholder | Jun 13 13:07 |
schestowitz | Some people refuse to argue back | Jun 13 13:07 |
schestowitz | Others use magic | Jun 13 13:07 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: The south isn't all like that, t here's patches | Jun 13 13:07 |
schestowitz | Dawkins is too aggressive, IMHO | Jun 13 13:07 |
schestowitz | But I think it's important to just encourage discussion | Jun 13 13:08 |
DaemonFC | if you get into larger cities it gets much more *normal* | Jun 13 13:08 |
maxstirner | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3513475.stm <- bbs obituary | Jun 13 13:08 |
schestowitz | A lot of things like global warming get ignored under similar premises like "an invisible man who will mend everything" | Jun 13 13:08 |
maxstirner | iw as actually a fan of the UK there is prob no god bus advertising | Jun 13 13:09 |
schestowitz | Or that death is acceptable with the supposition og afterlife | Jun 13 13:09 |
DaemonFC | which is why business has a vested interest in religion | Jun 13 13:09 |
maxstirner | especially when all the fundamentalists started whining in the UK press | Jun 13 13:09 |
DaemonFC | who cares how much they pollute if we're all going to heaven? | Jun 13 13:09 |
DaemonFC | :P | Jun 13 13:09 |
maxstirner | their propaganda is permissible of course | Jun 13 13:09 |
schestowitz | I never thought about it that way | Jun 13 13:09 |
schestowitz | But authorities liked it | Jun 13 13:09 |
schestowitz | Never thought about business | Jun 13 13:10 |
schestowitz | Back in the old days it was a WONDERFUL way to control minds | Jun 13 13:10 |
DaemonFC | don't worry, while we're dying of poisoning and natural disasters, rich people will be quite safe | Jun 13 13:10 |
schestowitz | Another issue is glorification of people | Jun 13 13:10 |
DaemonFC | they can afford bunkers and purified water | Jun 13 13:10 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 13:10 |
maxstirner | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPKM3iVw3Ok&feature=related <- Bill Hicks on Advertising | Jun 13 13:10 |
schestowitz | Like the whole "BillG is a saint" spiel | Jun 13 13:10 |
maxstirner | they love him now | Jun 13 13:11 |
maxstirner | its like the Rockefeller foundation, he was one of the most hated people alive before he started getting all philanth. | Jun 13 13:11 |
schestowitz | Microsoft is a marketing company | Jun 13 13:14 |
schestowitz | They focus more on making press than making products | Jun 13 13:14 |
schestowitz | Just look at Waggener Endstrom | Jun 13 13:14 |
schestowitz | Ballmer married of of them :-) | Jun 13 13:15 |
schestowitz | It's not philanthropy, it's marketing. They also use marketing people to promote that image and attack dissent. | Jun 13 13:16 |
maxstirner | well whatever it is, i'm not impressed since the cash was stolen in the first place ;) | Jun 13 13:17 |
schestowitz | Into a tax-free gutter | Jun 13 13:19 |
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schestowitz | We've had so many trolls recently that I hardly manage to make posts | Jun 13 13:20 |
maxstirner | wasting time on absurd "debates" | Jun 13 13:21 |
schestowitz | Not exactly | Jun 13 13:22 |
schestowitz | More like abusive trolls | Jun 13 13:22 |
schestowitz | And distraction and smears | Jun 13 13:22 |
schestowitz | Veyr unpleasant | Jun 13 13:22 |
maxstirner | i've been following it.. | Jun 13 13:22 |
schestowitz | I really enjoy writing, but when people start going personal then it's annoying | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | It also lacks value | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | Like.. | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | If you look at IRC logs from some days ago | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | They dilute the discussion | Jun 13 13:23 |
maxstirner | your site is a real threat to the .NET implementors, so you get all the guerrilla marketing crowd working your comments etc | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | Just lots of just drowning out signal | Jun 13 13:23 |
schestowitz | And BN wrote a lot about site incidents, not the topic, not the issues | Jun 13 13:24 |
schestowitz | They took it up to reddit and Linux Today | Jun 13 13:24 |
schestowitz | Some Novell employees too | Jun 13 13:24 |
maxstirner | well, locally it's been revealed that even the (semi-privatised) german railway corporates employ people to post positive comments on message boards and blogs | Jun 13 13:26 |
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maxstirner | i wouldn't expect any less from the largest megacorp in the industry, which is now in deep shit | Jun 13 13:26 |
_Hicham_ | Hi All! | Jun 13 13:26 |
maxstirner | hello | Jun 13 13:26 |
_Hicham_ | ah DaemonFC, back again | Jun 13 13:27 |
_Hicham_ | what are u doing today Mr DaemonFC? | Jun 13 13:27 |
schestowitz | maxstirner: sounds typical | Jun 13 13:34 |
schestowitz | In Italy there's the telecom cartel | Jun 13 13:34 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: oh, no... don't feed em | Jun 13 13:34 |
maxstirner | its the only way now, with the democratisation of media; in the past you could just purchase tv time | Jun 13 13:35 |
schestowitz | I guess they just find other scum | Jun 13 13:37 |
schestowitz | Did you know about Twitter | Jun 13 13:37 |
schestowitz | Some ethically criminal companies are starting pay2post services around that | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | We need law against that | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | The EC had a law coming into effect last year | Jun 13 13:38 |
maxstirner | as they would.. its same with blogging isnt it | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | But it's not being enforced | Jun 13 13:38 |
maxstirner | declaration of interests? | Jun 13 13:38 |
maxstirner | that sort of thing? | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | maxstirner: yes, they corrupt blogs too | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | Google delisted some of them | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | And Microsoft is part of the problem because it bribes bloggers | Jun 13 13:38 |
schestowitz | And it was accused by former employees too of bribing bloggers | Jun 13 13:39 |
maxstirner | well i guess with the cross-boarder nature of the interweb, this is advantageous to freedom of the press as in wikileaks, and also freedom for capital to produce propaganda without control | Jun 13 13:39 |
schestowitz | They offshore Turfing to China too (maybe not MS) | Jun 13 13:39 |
schestowitz | Yes, propganda without control | Jun 13 13:40 |
schestowitz | Like trolls putting ugly stuff in the site to discredit it (by later linking to it) | Jun 13 13:40 |
maxstirner | i wouldnt be particularly surprised about that, the pharma industry also got pulled over for publishing a whole range of "scientific journals" with 100% advertising inside.. when busted they jsut pay up the fine as legal drugs has such wonderful margins it doesnt matter at all | Jun 13 13:42 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : DaemonFC is really skilled | Jun 13 13:43 |
_Hicham_ | he is a big contributor to this channel | Jun 13 13:43 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : I am testing Mandriva 2009.1 | Jun 13 13:43 |
_Hicham_ | GNOME edition | Jun 13 13:43 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Vice Presidents Keep Quitting en Masse < http://ping.fm/R4slt > | Jun 13 13:45 | |
schestowitz | maxstirner: yes, did they get punished for it? | Jun 13 13:45 |
schestowitz | How does one punish them for it? | Jun 13 13:45 |
schestowitz | For all I know, Elsevier's reputation is dead | Jun 13 13:45 |
schestowitz | But what about those who bribed it? | Jun 13 13:46 |
schestowitz | It takes too for this type of corruption. One has products, one has (HAD) reputation. | Jun 13 13:46 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: OK | Jun 13 13:46 |
maxstirner | http://www.the-scientist.com/blog/display/55671/ <- "I've seen no shortage of creativity emanating from the marketing departments of drug companies" | Jun 13 13:47 |
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Omar871 | Hi there? | Jun 13 14:16 |
maxstirner | hello | Jun 13 14:16 |
Omar871 | Guys did you read this silly article? http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2009/06/why-mono-is-des.html | Jun 13 14:16 |
schestowitz | maxstirner: what's the turnover of the phrama industry (compared to computing)? | Jun 13 14:17 |
schestowitz | Omar871: yes, we rebutted their lies where we got attacked | Jun 13 14:17 |
Omar871 | He's saying that Mono is several hundred time faster than Python. How true can that be? | Jun 13 14:17 |
schestowitz | Black art of stats | Jun 13 14:18 |
schestowitz | Put the right tests | Jun 13 14:18 |
schestowitz | It's like saying a truck is a lot slower than an F1 car | Jun 13 14:18 |
schestowitz | But a truck can tow what a F1 car cannot | Jun 13 14:18 |
schestowitz | Or you can swap sorting function in your computer with bubble sort even where it doesn't fit | Jun 13 14:19 |
Omar871 | How, in the world, would Mono ever be any different the Visual Studio.NET when it's basically a so-called "Free Implentation" of the same technology? | Jun 13 14:19 |
Omar871 | any different *than*.. | Jun 13 14:20 |
maxstirner | schestowitz: probably hard to determine, theres overlaps, therell be differences per country. IT is pervasive across all indsutries. there are also differences in the sort of healht care provisions per country.. | Jun 13 14:20 |
maxstirner | in 2006, global spending on prescription drugs topped $643 billion, | Jun 13 14:20 |
maxstirner | United States accounts for almost half of the global pharmaceutical market, with $289 billion in annual sales | Jun 13 14:20 |
schestowitz | Wow | Jun 13 14:21 |
schestowitz | Marketing/PR is about a trillion | Jun 13 14:21 |
schestowitz | That's a LOT of brainwash, annually | Jun 13 14:21 |
maxstirner | thats another meta-industry.. | Jun 13 14:21 |
maxstirner | think its hard to compare the two | Jun 13 14:21 |
maxstirner | i'd compare pharma and car production | Jun 13 14:21 |
schestowitz | Benking too | Jun 13 14:21 |
schestowitz | *bank | Jun 13 14:21 |
schestowitz | Lawyers.. | Jun 13 14:22 |
maxstirner | see what i mean | Jun 13 14:22 |
schestowitz | "We give you the right to pay us to talk for you" | Jun 13 14:22 |
schestowitz | They don't produce anything so from a very dumbed down POV it's a man-made occupation | Jun 13 14:23 |
maxstirner | its a service for interaction with society within the framework of a certain code, the legal code | Jun 13 14:23 |
schestowitz | Different from some R&D where the goal is to maximise output from physical work of machines (factories) | Jun 13 14:23 |
maxstirner | thats all done in china now, in the west its just talking rubbish and selling it to one another ;) | Jun 13 14:24 |
Omar871 | So what exactly is the difference between Mono and VS.NET? | Jun 13 14:26 |
The difference between mono and .NET is that mono is free, though patent encumbered. | Jun 13 14:32 | |
As usual, freedom makes mono better than the non free original | Jun 13 14:32 | |
but it's still a trap. | Jun 13 14:33 | |
:) | Jun 13 14:33 | |
Good morning, Roy. | Jun 13 14:33 | |
maxstirner | i think the motivation of most mono-proponents is that they have a job at novell programming mono-based apps, and if they don't manage to push the framework/apps into the distros, theres no mono-employment at novell to be had | Jun 13 14:33 |
The Jo Shields attack seems to have been planned long in advance. | Jun 13 14:33 | |
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They sent their trolls in here to guide conversation and did other things to harass the place. They wanted to get as extreme a reaction out of regulars as they could. | Jun 13 14:35 | |
maxstirner | noone wants mono particularly, its probably very hard to shove it into the distros.. the development and pushing of some key apps as "best of breed" blabla is probably part of the long-term strategy | Jun 13 14:35 |
When they failed to provoke the desired reaction, they simply sock puppeted in the most vile trash they could. | Jun 13 14:36 | |
M$ always says their non standards are "best of breed" | Jun 13 14:36 | |
maxstirner | the pro-mono banter does actually sound like corporate marketing slang | Jun 13 14:37 |
maxstirner | "extremely productive" "best of breed" blabla | Jun 13 14:37 |
maxstirner | the majority of gnu users are highly sensitive to the political and legal questions surrounding novell/MS | Jun 13 14:37 |
maxstirner | the mono-pushers' achievements are actually pretty impressive considering | Jun 13 14:38 |
One of my favorite M$ non standard stories is told by David Korn. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/02/06/2030205.shtml | Jun 13 14:39 | |
" I knew that Microsoft had licensed a number of tools from MKS so I came to the microphone to tell the speaker that this was not the "real" Korn Shell and that MKS was not even compatible with ksh88. I had no intention of embarrassing him and thought that he would explain the compromises that Microsoft had to make in choosing MKS Korn Shell. Instead, he insisted that I was wrong and that Microsoft had indeed chosen a "real" Korn S | Jun 13 14:39 | |
oiaohm | Not like some gnome developers have not planed a way to nuke .net anyhow. | Jun 13 14:39 |
:-D | Jun 13 14:39 | |
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oiaohm | vala project is all about picking up the best of c# and the best of gobject and merging them. | Jun 13 14:40 |
oiaohm | To produce a very fast language. | Jun 13 14:40 |
maxstirner | nice anecdote.. | Jun 13 14:41 |
oiaohm | Part of the problem in the open source world. Some of the best of breed applications are QT based. | Jun 13 14:41 |
oiaohm | Due to lacking common theming they look ugly on gnome. | Jun 13 14:41 |
oiaohm | And the reverse is true with KDE. | Jun 13 14:42 |
M$ brings the same kind of attitude and bragging to all the things they do. | Jun 13 14:42 | |
there's about zero chance mono is going to replace java and other free languages | Jun 13 14:43 | |
at the very best, M$ will be able to keep a few of it's VB suckers from jumping the Windows ship, and they will retain a small mind share among those who do by having mono around. | Jun 13 14:44 | |
maxstirner | its just like silverlight versus flash | Jun 13 14:45 |
maxstirner | just another sad MS joke | Jun 13 14:45 |
maxstirner | they never got beyond their OS/office monopoly and thats been replaced by a perfectly functional 100% free alternative now | Jun 13 14:45 |
Everyone sees what's going on. | Jun 13 14:45 | |
maxstirner | hence the desperate work on OOXML | Jun 13 14:46 |
schestowitz | twitter: morning, twitter | Jun 13 14:46 |
:) | Jun 13 14:46 | |
I can't hang out long ... have a little work to do soon. | Jun 13 14:46 | |
schestowitz | maxstirner: did they really write "best of breed"? | Jun 13 14:47 |
schestowitz | You'd think you talk of P/L ethnicity there or something | Jun 13 14:47 |
schestowitz | The Microsoft cultists as some would call it. What about Java? No 'breed'? | Jun 13 14:48 |
maxstirner | schestowitz: i spent most of last ngith read reading around regarding these issues (mostly with leads from your journalistic input) and i'm sure i spotted that somewhere.. i generally felt some of it sounded like corporate slogans | Jun 13 14:48 |
Sorry, I missed all the racist talk. I figured out how to ignore people with pidgin and did not see any of it. | Jun 13 14:49 | |
schestowitz | maxstirner: yes, office is eroded by Ajax | Jun 13 14:49 |
schestowitz | MS ridiculed Google only because Live Office is crap | Jun 13 14:49 |
schestowitz | They still work on mimicking Google | Jun 13 14:49 |
schestowitz | Until then they must laugh at them | Jun 13 14:49 |
maxstirner | imHo its mostly eroded by oo.org as a direct equivalent.. i love installing it for people | Jun 13 14:49 |
Roy found another M$ story not long ago, about M$ suing one of their MVPs for extending their no cost version of Visual Studio. I might have shown him that. The register wrote about it. | Jun 13 14:50 | |
maxstirner | i've even isntalled it for a girlfriend who was getting wound up by the "ribbon" :D | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | Yes, that too | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | But Microsoft seems more scared of Google Apps | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | And its likes | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | I'm not sure why | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | But it's former lackeys attack Google | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | I guess with Wi-Fi even netbooks will run something like Google Apps | Jun 13 14:50 |
because Google Apps is a much easier way to share than Share Point. | Jun 13 14:50 | |
maxstirner | google being like MS when they owned the DOS-world :D | Jun 13 14:50 |
schestowitz | twitter: yes, exactly | Jun 13 14:51 |
schestowitz | Now they have wave | Jun 13 14:51 |
Google has basically thwarted M$'s future. | Jun 13 14:51 | |
schestowitz | YouTube+mail+presentation viewer/maker metc. | Jun 13 14:51 |
schestowitz | All in one. | Jun 13 14:51 |
schestowitz | You could even put YouTube in presentations | Jun 13 14:51 |
schestowitz | I don't know if they have done that yet | Jun 13 14:51 |
Everything M$ wanted to do, Google did better with free software. It's a nice double insult. | Jun 13 14:51 | |
schestowitz | So you can pass people a presentation with mashup-like embedments | Jun 13 14:51 |
schestowitz | Imagine sedning a presentation to someone with 20 long videos, each being a YouTuve direction | Jun 13 14:52 |
schestowitz | twitter: not Free software | Jun 13 14:52 |
schestowitz | SaaS and mashups, running on top of FOSS | Jun 13 14:52 |
schestowitz | But Wave and Chrome are FOSS. | Jun 13 14:52 |
Google's use of free software is mostly in the right spirit. There is danger, but it's mostly FUD. | Jun 13 14:53 | |
They use free software to solve specific problems and offer the result as a service. | Jun 13 14:54 | |
schestowitz | Google used to do DRM | Jun 13 14:55 |
schestowitz | For films | Jun 13 14:55 |
schestowitz | But they closed down that shop business and gave some disappointing refund | Jun 13 14:55 |
YouTube, true. | Jun 13 14:55 | |
schestowitz | Are they doing DRM anywhere, still? | Jun 13 14:55 |
schestowitz | They see to be 'protecting' scanned books from being saved, but not captured from the screen | Jun 13 14:55 |
they make it difficult to get things. | Jun 13 14:56 | |
That is all in the wrong spirit but mostly forced by others. | Jun 13 14:56 | |
gotta go, bbl | Jun 13 14:57 | |
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wallclimber | Good morning | Jun 13 14:59 |
wallclimber | Roy, when do you think you'll be working on Comes vs MS again? | Jun 13 15:00 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora “Concerned” About Mono for Legal Reasons, Ubuntu Debate Carries on < http://ping.fm/0ozfv > | Jun 13 15:10 | |
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_Hicham_ | wb Mr tacone | Jun 13 15:11 |
tacone | hey bad news | Jun 13 15:11 |
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tacone | http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/2009/06/13/i-give-up/ | Jun 13 15:11 |
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schestowitz | hey | Jun 13 15:16 |
schestowitz | wallclimber.. | Jun 13 15:17 |
wallclimber | Ha! I just installed Konversation and got it working! | Jun 13 15:17 |
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schestowitz | tacone: the only bad news is this: "On top of all that, the ubuntu forums are “disappearing” threads that are critical of mono … and people seem perfectly alright with that. I spent a lot of time posting to a thread yesterday, only to come back on today to see it removed from the boards. Same thing on brainstorm with votes being “disappeared”." | Jun 13 15:20 |
schestowitz | See my latest post < http://ping.fm/0ozfv >. Even Red Hat rethinks Mono. | Jun 13 15:20 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: I might restart Comes next week | Jun 13 15:20 |
tacone | i linked that here yesterday | Jun 13 15:20 |
schestowitz | News lag... | Jun 13 15:20 |
schestowitz | tacone: yes | Jun 13 15:21 |
wallclimber | Next week will be fine, if you still want help with it | Jun 13 15:21 |
neighborlee | tacone, not so sure its bad news..he had other fish to fry it sounds like..and im not so sure, him 'giving up' is all that great a sign he was all that devloted to begin with..not a bad thing,,just his lot in life...c'est la vie but in NO way is it bad news.... | Jun 13 15:21 |
tacone | schestowitz: as well as the huarya delirium | Jun 13 15:21 |
tacone | how crazy is that guy ? | Jun 13 15:21 |
tacone | he has absolutely no clue about anything. | Jun 13 15:21 |
neighborlee | I woud never just give up because things seemed dismal or impossible..its nolt in my dna 'to give up' | Jun 13 15:21 |
tacone | on a side note, there's one italian shill infesting any blog who talks about mono | Jun 13 15:22 |
tacone | fake comments are beginning on one of the lead italian linux blogs | Jun 13 15:22 |
tacone | that's scaring, honestly. you don't expect localized fanboys. | Jun 13 15:23 |
neighborlee | WE have to remember..those that speak of this issue as if those not supporting mono are crazy fud'ers , gives our argument tons more steam...so in no way is it worth 'giving up' on ;) | Jun 13 15:23 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Windows da Microsoft «é como uma droga»: http://is.gd/10OcK || Primeira vez os vejo a falar de software livre... | Jun 13 15:25 | |
schestowitz | http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssTechMediaTelecomNews/idUSN1152686420090611 | Jun 13 15:28 |
schestowitz | tacone: yeah, but I don't think it's badly intended | Jun 13 15:29 |
tacone | schestowitz: what ? | Jun 13 15:30 |
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schestowitz | Never mind | Jun 13 15:31 |
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tacone | as you prefer. | Jun 13 15:31 |
schestowitz | I think the likes you see in the mailing list give a bad name to Mono critics | Jun 13 15:31 |
schestowitz | They think of it as nutters like "fink" | Jun 13 15:31 |
tacone | sure they do. | Jun 13 15:31 |
schestowitz | Which is why it's very damaging to our cause | Jun 13 15:31 |
tacone | that's why mononono is needed. | Jun 13 15:32 |
schestowitz | Like religious fanatics that are used to daemonise religions | Jun 13 15:32 |
neighborlee | response to giving up commited,,thx tacone for mentioning this. | Jun 13 15:34 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, how many mono critics are acting this way | Jun 13 15:37 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, YOu prob. see more of this than many, so how many would you estimate | Jun 13 15:37 |
_Hicham_ | when Mono will die? | Jun 13 15:38 |
_Hicham_ | I will accept Mono, if and only if, Visual Studio got ported to Linux | Jun 13 15:39 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 13 15:39 |
neighborlee | Thats the spirit! :))HA | Jun 13 15:39 |
neighborlee | Thats a laugh worth getting behind :)) | Jun 13 15:40 |
_Hicham_ | there is no IDE in the world like Visual Studio | Jun 13 15:40 |
neighborlee | well | Jun 13 15:40 |
neighborlee | anjuta can't be all that far behind | Jun 13 15:40 |
neighborlee | I wonder if kdevelop is holding up | Jun 13 15:40 |
_Hicham_ | Anjuta is still young | Jun 13 15:41 |
_Hicham_ | I use for my main development | Jun 13 15:41 |
neighborlee | compartively indeed it is | Jun 13 15:41 |
neighborlee | nice ;)) | Jun 13 15:41 |
_Hicham_ | but it exceeds Visual Studio in some areas | Jun 13 15:41 |
_Hicham_ | it has a great set of plugins | Jun 13 15:41 |
_Hicham_ | that are not available for Visual Studio | Jun 13 15:42 |
neighborlee | indeed it does- | Jun 13 15:44 |
Eruaran | KDevelop4 is shaping up with some very nice features | Jun 13 15:45 |
tacone | new logo https://launchpad.net/mononono | Jun 13 15:45 |
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Eruaran | http://zwabel.wordpress.com/2009/03/13/really-rapid-c-development-with-kdevelop4/ | Jun 13 15:49 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] What if Microshaft left EU today?!!: http://digg.com/d1tiv4?t | Jun 13 15:50 | |
tacone | "I prefer netinstall myself (and don’t use tasks) but please, PLEASE don’t impose an Ubuntu on us." http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/mono-in-the-default-install/ | Jun 13 15:52 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] More "fun" with expensive low quality Vista SLOPWARE: http://digg.com/d1tivp?t | Jun 13 15:55 | |
PetoKraus | beranger has an uniquely good article | Jun 13 15:55 |
PetoKraus | http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/10/a-unique-person-with-common-sense-in-the-ep/ | Jun 13 15:55 |
schestowitz | PetoKraus: his political stuff is good | Jun 13 15:58 |
neighborlee | looksl like shields is really scared mono might be removed from EVEN ubuntu ;)) | Jun 13 16:03 |
neighborlee | INteresting o_0 | Jun 13 16:04 |
Eruaran | So another Mono-advocates argument is that if all your apps are Mono, they'll use less space cause they're using mono, reducing duplication... | Jun 13 16:04 |
Eruaran | erm | Jun 13 16:04 |
Eruaran | isn't this already a feature of | Jun 13 16:04 |
Eruaran | kde | Jun 13 16:04 |
Eruaran | no mono | Jun 13 16:04 |
neighborlee | faik it is. | Jun 13 16:05 |
neighborlee | depends which distro I guess..fedora kde has fspot, etc. | Jun 13 16:05 |
neighborlee | at least dvd wize | Jun 13 16:05 |
neighborlee | livecd prob. n ot ? | Jun 13 16:05 |
Eruaran | kde is a wonderful example of how you can have great apps that share libraries and integrate nicely | Jun 13 16:06 |
Eruaran | so what does anyone need mono for | Jun 13 16:06 |
Eruaran | use Qt | Jun 13 16:06 |
neighborlee | Ive seen that sentiment expressed lately , yes. | Jun 13 16:06 |
neighborlee | and now that its lgpl..I h ave far less issues with it, yes. | Jun 13 16:06 |
Eruaran | oh wait... Miguel doesnt like Qt cause of that thing from back in the 90's | Jun 13 16:06 |
Eruaran | ... | Jun 13 16:06 |
neighborlee | how ironic ey ;)) | Jun 13 16:07 |
neighborlee | heh no doubt ;0-0 | Jun 13 16:07 |
Eruaran | the irony is as thick as honey | Jun 13 16:07 |
neighborlee | sure is LOL | Jun 13 16:07 |
Eruaran | I saw the linux multitouch demo | Jun 13 16:08 |
Eruaran | not the first ive seen | Jun 13 16:08 |
Eruaran | but nice to see a kde desktop | Jun 13 16:08 |
neighborlee | I tried kde in fedora11..buggy but then it might just be fedora not sure, as I installed ,late albeit the fedora 11 RC | Jun 13 16:10 |
neighborlee | was ,,resizing kde panel and it crashed.. | Jun 13 16:10 |
neighborlee | though deskto p remained ok | Jun 13 16:10 |
Eruaran | that would be a distro issue | Jun 13 16:10 |
neighborlee | I wondered. | Jun 13 16:10 |
Eruaran | Mint 6 KDE had the same issue in the RC | Jun 13 16:11 |
neighborlee | zalso | Jun 13 16:11 |
Eruaran | Kubuntu doesn't | Jun 13 16:11 |
neighborlee | fedora used kde 4.2.5 I thik..I hear 4.2.3 is more stable ;0 | Jun 13 16:11 |
neighborlee | hmm | Jun 13 16:11 |
Eruaran | 4.2.4 is the latest | Jun 13 16:11 |
Eruaran | its stable | Jun 13 16:11 |
neighborlee | ah | Jun 13 16:11 |
Eruaran | Fedora seems a bit too bleeding edge to me | Jun 13 16:12 |
neighborlee | well you know | Jun 13 16:12 |
neighborlee | on fedora FAQ < though its 'unofficial" > its claimed to be stable ;) | Jun 13 16:12 |
neighborlee | depends who you ask..usually they say its not unstable.but ya know I've always felt same way overall | Jun 13 16:12 |
neighborlee | mono gone..makes it more appealing no doubt of that | Jun 13 16:13 |
Eruaran | I kind of see Fedora as the distro you want to use to see what other distro's will have in 6 to 8 months time | Jun 13 16:13 |
neighborlee | still.. | Jun 13 16:13 |
neighborlee | LOL | Jun 13 16:13 |
neighborlee | yes ;) | Jun 13 16:13 |
Eruaran | except other distros will be stable | Jun 13 16:13 |
neighborlee | sad but likely quite true.. | Jun 13 16:14 |
Eruaran | its like new wine | Jun 13 16:14 |
neighborlee | they put in beta firefox..apparantly beta kde.. | Jun 13 16:14 |
Eruaran | looks good but can be quite volatile | Jun 13 16:14 |
neighborlee | so..its not like your statements dont carry truth ;) | Jun 13 16:14 |
neighborlee | exactly | Jun 13 16:14 |
Eruaran | KDE 4.2.4 is official | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | it does SO much very nicely..I wish honeslty..it took stability a tad m ore seriously | Jun 13 16:15 |
Eruaran | 4.2.5 is like what the ? | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | kk | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | buggy | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | trust me on that | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | its nice.but... | Jun 13 16:15 |
Eruaran | I didn't know there was even going to be a 4.2.5 | Jun 13 16:15 |
Eruaran | that doesnt sound right | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | I may be wrong on the version | Jun 13 16:15 |
neighborlee | im not in fedora atm so I cant' verify | Jun 13 16:15 |
Eruaran | Its not 4.3 is it ? | Jun 13 16:16 |
neighborlee | mabye | Jun 13 16:16 |
neighborlee | ybe | Jun 13 16:16 |
Eruaran | thats beta | Jun 13 16:16 |
neighborlee | hmmm now im curious :)) | Jun 13 16:16 |
neighborlee | easy way to verify BRB | Jun 13 16:16 |
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neighborlee | 4.2.3 | Jun 13 16:19 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft to ‘Pay’ $0.1 Billion to Settle Mississippi Case Against Its Crimes < http://ping.fm/3H6fw > | Jun 13 16:20 | |
Eruaran | should be fine | Jun 13 16:23 |
Eruaran | I have 4.2.4 and its fine | Jun 13 16:23 |
neighborlee | all I can say is panel crashed | Jun 13 16:24 |
neighborlee | when I tried to resize it | Jun 13 16:24 |
neighborlee | very neat how they do resizing though..unique. | Jun 13 16:24 |
neighborlee | now sure if it was vert. orhoriz. but it crashed ;) | Jun 13 16:24 |
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neighborlee | anyone know, if any reply at all has been given to sam re: ecma ??? | Jun 13 16:30 |
neighborlee | before I write this response it might be nice to know...;) | Jun 13 16:30 |
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schestowitz | None that I know o | Jun 13 16:48 |
schestowitz | *of | Jun 13 16:48 |
neighborlee | kk | Jun 13 16:49 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Even Microsoft Can’t Secure Its Windows-based Web Sites (MSN Canada Cracked) < http://ping.fm/cjozL > | Jun 13 16:55 | |
schestowitz | bbl | Jun 13 16:55 |
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ender2070 | i love how on the mono site, they say in the event microsoft attempts a mono-related patent suit, they would just "invalidate it with prior art" | Jun 13 17:07 |
ender2070 | if they could actually make that claim they would already know what patents they needed to invalidate | Jun 13 17:08 |
ender2070 | and if they do, why dont they invalidate them anyways | Jun 13 17:08 |
neighborlee | hm | Jun 13 17:09 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Ah, back at home. Back on Linux! My week wasn't too bad having to use XP expect my report soon. | Jun 13 17:35 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Me down the pub with the Australians (and an Englishman to my left): http://twitpic.com/7a8za | Jun 13 17:40 | |
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_Goblin | hi all | Jun 13 17:43 |
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neighborlee | hi ;) | Jun 13 17:45 |
_Goblin | bit slow in here today... | Jun 13 17:47 |
_Goblin | just returned home from Poole | Jun 13 17:47 |
_Goblin | good to be back with Linux... | Jun 13 17:47 |
_Mutex_ | no xp laptop for you :) | Jun 13 17:47 |
_Goblin | netbook...nope..its packed away until next time. | Jun 13 17:48 |
_Goblin | I see Roy has changed the topic of room. | Jun 13 17:48 |
_Goblin | One thing I learnt from using XP for a week. I'll be moving over to Chrome ASAP. | Jun 13 17:49 |
_Goblin | very impressed with that package. | Jun 13 17:49 |
_Mutex_ | really,, interesting :) good | Jun 13 17:50 |
_Goblin | just had a quick run of the beta on Linux...it seems just as good. | Jun 13 17:50 |
_Goblin | ah.. | Jun 13 18:03 |
_Goblin | Lets talk about... | Jun 13 18:04 |
_Goblin | BB? | Jun 13 18:04 |
_Goblin | or what about ITV and its silverlight preference | Jun 13 18:04 |
_Goblin | strange that a channel that relies on advertising for revenue chooses a deployment method that many people either dont have or want. | Jun 13 18:05 |
_Mutex_ | many people ? I assume your refering to Non-windows users ? | Jun 13 18:07 |
_Goblin | and Windows users...typical user (In my experience) Q: You installed silverlight? A: Whats that? | Jun 13 18:08 |
maxstirner | its typical microtoss idiocy, trying to enter the market for flash-like platforms at this stage | Jun 13 18:09 |
maxstirner | never happen | Jun 13 18:09 |
_Mutex_ | Typical users, in my experience, dont even know what an operating system is. If they get a popup that says they need silverlight for view somehting, they will click "OK" and download it, and forget about it. | Jun 13 18:09 |
_Goblin | maybe some Windows users will blindly install the latest MS schemes but I think many of the average users think twice before putting more bloat on their systems. | Jun 13 18:09 |
_Mutex_ | I asked a young lady with computer problems the other day, "what OS are you using" she look at me blankly and said "what?" "I Dunno". | Jun 13 18:10 |
_Goblin | I think thats one of the barriers for mainstream migration to Linux. | Jun 13 18:10 |
_Goblin | the lack of understanding... | Jun 13 18:10 |
_Mutex_ | It sure IS | Jun 13 18:10 |
_Goblin | My wife once thought Ubuntu was made by Microsoft. | Jun 13 18:10 |
_Mutex_ | the OS is getting less and less relevant as time goes on, people care about one thing, Applications | Jun 13 18:11 |
_Mutex_ | Exactly. | Jun 13 18:11 |
_Goblin | true...and really thats the way it should be.. | Jun 13 18:11 |
maxstirner | the OS has not been relevant in 2 decades due to a near-total monopoly, and all apps ran on that one OS. that's why noone is able to answer the "which OS" question IMO | Jun 13 18:12 |
_Mutex_ | yes, again exactly, the OS should be invisable and transparent, (like kids, sometimes seen but never heard) | Jun 13 18:12 |
_Goblin | an OS should be a platform which runs as unassumingly in the background freeing up as many resources as possible whilst acting as a launchpad for other apps. | Jun 13 18:12 |
_Mutex_ | yep, | Jun 13 18:12 |
_Goblin | Workbench was a good example of this. | Jun 13 18:12 |
_Goblin | the shame is (IMO) Windows acts as a platform to sell you more things...its not so much an OS but a sales pitch. | Jun 13 18:13 |
_Goblin | always questioning, registration codes, free trials, malware search bars, widgets, blingy gfx which hide (IMO) a platform of little depth. | Jun 13 18:14 |
_Mutex_ | yes, thats life, iPod sell iPod so they can sell you music, DVD players want you to buy DVD, its actually what everyone does | Jun 13 18:14 |
_Goblin | Agreed, but when I switch my DVD player on, it doesnt try to sell me other apps for it, nor does it expect me to buy an upgrade. | Jun 13 18:15 |
_Mutex_ | I mean Red Hat GIVES away software so they can sell maintenance contracts, its no different | Jun 13 18:15 |
_Mutex_ | What I switch Windows on , I dont get anything trying to sell me apps either | Jun 13 18:16 |
_Mutex_ | Or Linux | Jun 13 18:16 |
_Goblin | Yep, but the choice if you want those contracts is up to you, and in these days of so many forums and chat rooms, Id suggest for the home user they are not needed. | Jun 13 18:16 |
_Goblin | Unless Im wrong, when you buy a new machine with Windows, doesnt it have trials, freebies and offers galore? | Jun 13 18:17 |
_Goblin | since I just been using a new XP laptop, Im talking from experience. | Jun 13 18:17 |
_Goblin | In my one week of XP, Ive been "advised" to try out a 60 day trial of office... | Jun 13 18:17 |
_Mutex_ | what were y ou prompted to buy ? | Jun 13 18:17 |
_Goblin | Popup after the machine had been on about TWO minutes. | Jun 13 18:18 |
_Goblin | I hadnt even connected to the net.. | Jun 13 18:18 |
_Goblin | thats where the real fun started. | Jun 13 18:18 |
_Mutex_ | from a web page,,, ive never seen that, but asking you to try a FREE trial, is not quite making you buy anything, | Jun 13 18:18 |
_Goblin | Ive nearly completed my feature on "A Holiday with XP" which journals my tale of woe. | Jun 13 18:19 |
_Goblin | which to be fair, was mainly only ruined by the machine trying to pimp things to me. | Jun 13 18:19 |
_Mutex_ | Thats a bit odd, I have to admit ive never seen that, not saying it does not happen, but it must be rare | Jun 13 18:19 |
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_Goblin | It could be pre-installed software from the store I purchased. | Jun 13 18:19 |
_Goblin | and really its not a dig at MS (believe it or not) | Jun 13 18:20 |
_Mutex_ | mabey, then its not really MS's issue, its your OEM's. | Jun 13 18:20 |
_Mutex_ | thats right | Jun 13 18:20 |
_Goblin | its more of a dig at why proprietary is rotten to the core and IMO the future of it rests soley with custom solutions for Enterprise, not the home user. | Jun 13 18:20 |
_Goblin | Why bother with Nero when you have Brasero? | Jun 13 18:21 |
_Goblin | Why bother with MS Office when you have Openoffice? | Jun 13 18:21 |
_Goblin | etc etc | Jun 13 18:21 |
_Goblin | and IE? I honestly thought that the complaints on the net were exagerated....how wrong was I. | Jun 13 18:22 |
_Goblin | On my little netbook (with only a 16gig SSD) there was approximately 1 gig wasted with trials that Microsoft wanted to sell me. | Jun 13 18:23 |
_Goblin | 1gig is not much I know, but on a little netbook where resources are limited, it means alot. | Jun 13 18:24 |
_Mutex_ | the reason why people bother with MS office, its basically ALL business use it, its a defacto industry standard, and OO.org still does not have the VB capabilities that are embedded into a vast legacy of Excel, and MSO apps. Government, business, Science, inductry, its really hard if not impossible to break a defacto standard, as the Beta Vedeo people, VHS because the standard, everyone used it, even though BETA was technically better, it did not m | Jun 13 18:24 |
_Goblin | VB capabilities required for the home user? We will agree to differ on that and since you yourself agree most people dont even know what the OS is, how do you expect them to facilitate VB? | Jun 13 18:25 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microshaft set to violate EU rules again over low quality IE: http://digg.com/d1tjS3?t | Jun 13 18:25 | |
_Goblin | In regards to government, Im pleased you mentioned that. The French have switched their Police force to FOSS and have had no issues. | Jun 13 18:26 |
_Mutex_ | yes, required by the home users, if you want to do anything with government (well here in Australia), online, or to fill out any forms, do a government course, you HAVE to have excel and VB | Jun 13 18:26 |
_Mutex_ | I did a business course, and i HAD to use excell, the entire business plan was a complex excell spreadsheet, and its a Government small business course, you just cant do it without word. | Jun 13 18:27 |
_Mutex_ | im not saying it cant be dont, im just saying its mostly not done. | Jun 13 18:28 |
_Goblin | If thats the case in the Uk then maybe its another avenue for the EU and anti-trust investigations once they complete the IE issue. | Jun 13 18:28 |
_Goblin | Since after recent scandles the government want to reduce expenses... | Jun 13 18:28 |
_Mutex_ | It's a buyers choice, you cant be fined for being popular, (unless you're the EU). | Jun 13 18:28 |
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_Goblin | going to FOSS could pump more money into the system. | Jun 13 18:28 |
_Goblin | thats not really true is it? They were investigated with the tactics used to pimp their products to the detriment of others...Firefox has already proved (IMO) that better alternatives to MS products exist. | Jun 13 18:29 |
_Mutex_ | Mabey so, but really , you think even EVERY Windows in Government would amount to anywhere near the loss of some of the UK banks have created, or GM or chrisler or the Sub-prime bailout, MS is chicken feed. | Jun 13 18:30 |
fewa | _Mutex_, yes | Jun 13 18:30 |
_Goblin | very true, but the sustained cost of proprietary would still be a saving....we cant change whats happened in the banks... | Jun 13 18:30 |
_Mutex_ | They do that because its MS, and they have lots of money, if they were serious and honest, they would do that with Apple too, but they dont have the money to extort. | Jun 13 18:30 |
_Mutex_ | MS is the EU's cashcow, (and now they found INTEL) too. | Jun 13 18:31 |
_Goblin | MS the victim? thats a new one. | Jun 13 18:31 |
_Mutex_ | EU fines for MS amount to 10% of the EU's budget, you dont think that would bias their opinion ? | Jun 13 18:31 |
fewa | Software Libre not only help with economics, it also improves security, innovation, progress | Jun 13 18:31 |
fewa | _Mutex_, have to people objected? | Jun 13 18:32 |
fewa | *the | Jun 13 18:32 |
_Mutex_ | Sorry , free software is still basically using UNIX, Unix is 40 years old, thats not really progress IMHO | Jun 13 18:32 |
_Mutex_ | Objected to what ? | Jun 13 18:32 |
_Goblin | Im not really bothered in why Microsoft is fined....its the products (IMO) dont stand up to alternatives and its the end user that suffers when they are led down an MS route because they know no better. | Jun 13 18:32 |
fewa | How about bias of Microsoft _Mutex_ ? | Jun 13 18:33 |
_Mutex_ | being poplular is not a crime | Jun 13 18:33 |
fewa | doesnt the fact that they can crush rivals, and influence the market give them a bias to hamper innovation? | Jun 13 18:33 |
_Goblin | no its not....the Ipod/Zune issue is testiment to that...Users chose the platform they prefered. | Jun 13 18:34 |
_Goblin | in the case of PC OS's that hasnt happened yet. | Jun 13 18:34 |
_Mutex_ | crushing rivals, sorry, no, ms has never performed a hostile takeover, therefore every company they acquired did so willingly | Jun 13 18:34 |
fewa | _Mutex_, Microsoft is not "popular", its only common | Jun 13 18:34 |
fewa | and the reason it is common is because of anti-competitive tactics | Jun 13 18:34 |
_Mutex_ | Most business managers know the word NO, ask Yahoo | Jun 13 18:34 |
_Mutex_ | Popular is common, | Jun 13 18:35 |
_Goblin | very true Fewa... | Jun 13 18:35 |
fewa | _Mutex_, people hate Vista' | Jun 13 18:35 |
_Mutex_ | samantics | Jun 13 18:35 |
fewa | Microsoft is not popular | Jun 13 18:35 |
_Mutex_ | FOSS people hate Vista, most of the world have hardly heard the word | Jun 13 18:35 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality MSN Canada website hacked: http://digg.com/d1tjTT?t | Jun 13 18:35 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microsoft Mafia settles suit with Mississippi for $100 mln: http://digg.com/d1tjUl?t | Jun 13 18:35 | |
_Goblin | but at the end of the day, it doesnt matter if MS is popular or not, its simply that its packages (IMO) do not stand up against alternatives and users are suffering because of ignorance of the choices available to them. | Jun 13 18:35 |
_Mutex_ | going back to "what OS are you using" a. "I dunno". | Jun 13 18:35 |
fewa | _Mutex_, thats a myth for many consumers, consumers that know what they are getting demand XP | Jun 13 18:36 |
_Mutex_ | If users are suffering, they would seek out alternatives, most CIO's are aware of Linux, and FOSS, and Apple | Jun 13 18:36 |
fewa | or OSX, or even Linux | Jun 13 18:36 |
_Goblin | and like I say (and you agree) there is ignorance of what they are actually running. | Jun 13 18:37 |
fewa | and the other consumers dont know what Windows is, so how could it possibly be considered popular | Jun 13 18:37 |
_Mutex_ | Vista is selling 20 million licenses per month, FOSS dont like Vista I understand that, but the world is totally indifferent. | Jun 13 18:37 |
fewa | _Mutex_, only becuase they blackmail OEMs into selling it | Jun 13 18:37 |
_Goblin | I think its widely agreed that FF is far superior to IE but how many "average users" still use IE because they are not aware? I found one a few weeks ago. | Jun 13 18:37 |
_Mutex_ | Yes, there is, but if they find what they are running is able to do what they want (and it is) they see no reason to change. | Jun 13 18:38 |
_Mutex_ | thats why XP is staying in the market for so ling | Jun 13 18:38 |
_Goblin | but thats not what is happening is it? | Jun 13 18:38 |
_Mutex_ | long | Jun 13 18:38 |
fewa | _Mutex_, thats not popularity | Jun 13 18:38 |
_Goblin | its the ignorance in general that has created a market for the home IT technician, where extortionate prices can be charged to fix systems that have been ruined by user ignorance. | Jun 13 18:39 |
_Mutex_ | Popularity is like a singer or actor, its known by alot of people, mabey MS is the Kylie minogue of the OS :) | Jun 13 18:39 |
_Mutex_ | and Linux the Milly vanilly | Jun 13 18:39 |
fewa | XP has been on the market this long because people dont like Microsoft dictating to them what they can and cannot do with their computer | Jun 13 18:39 |
_Goblin | or simply misplaced trust in Microsoft packages. | Jun 13 18:39 |
fewa | _Mutex_, you just said that people dont know what OS they run | Jun 13 18:39 |
_Mutex_ | Fewa if that was the case they would not use XP they would use something else. | Jun 13 18:39 |
fewa | you are contradicting yourself | Jun 13 18:40 |
_Mutex_ | XP is MS after all. so by using XP they ARE being dictated by MS. (willingly) | Jun 13 18:40 |
fewa | _Mutex_, its the first step towards using something else | Jun 13 18:40 |
_Mutex_ | how so ? | Jun 13 18:40 |
fewa | Is rejecting the upgrade treadmill | Jun 13 18:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Why Microsoft Mafia hates - no, *REALLY* hates - ODF: http://digg.com/d1tjVz?t | Jun 13 18:40 | |
_Goblin | I think Firefox also is the first step to users experiencing alternatives.... | Jun 13 18:40 |
_Mutex_ | So you most to FOSS and you are forced into the 6 month upgrade treadmill. | Jun 13 18:40 |
_Goblin | ? | Jun 13 18:41 |
fewa | _Mutex_, thats a lie | Jun 13 18:41 |
fewa | go use Debian, Centos | Jun 13 18:41 |
_Goblin | Im not... | Jun 13 18:41 |
_Mutex_ | xp around for 9 years, is not really an upgrade mill, its also 18 Linux upgrades in that time | Jun 13 18:41 |
fewa | ubuntu LTS | Jun 13 18:41 |
_Mutex_ | what a lie ? | Jun 13 18:41 |
_Goblin | Mutex: Ubuntu !=Linux. | Jun 13 18:41 |
_Goblin | and even if it was, you could still be running Heron quite happily now. | Jun 13 18:42 |
_Mutex_ | Ubuntu contains the GPLv2 Linux (ie the Kernel) PLUS the GNU applications, therefore the Kernel of Ununtu is LINUX. | Jun 13 18:42 |
fewa | _Mutex_, logally falacy | Jun 13 18:42 |
_Mutex_ | IF its not Linux what is it ? | Jun 13 18:42 |
_Mutex_ | Unix ? | Jun 13 18:42 |
_Goblin | and thats an issue to the average user because.....? | Jun 13 18:43 |
fewa | just because A is a subset of B doesnt mean A encompasses all of B | Jun 13 18:43 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: not all Linuxes are Ubuntu. | Jun 13 18:43 |
_Mutex_ | You saying Ubuntu does not contain the Linux Kernel ? | Jun 13 18:43 |
_Goblin | Ive given up on Ubuntu anyway. | Jun 13 18:43 |
_Mutex_ | I beg to differ | Jun 13 18:43 |
_Goblin | For me Linux = Mandriva + Gentoo | Jun 13 18:43 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: are you pretending to be stupid or is that genuine? :> | Jun 13 18:43 |
_Mutex_ | Linux copyright of Linus Torvalds is the Kernel of the GNU/Linux Operating system and application suite, | Jun 13 18:44 |
_Goblin | Mutex why is any of this a concern to a user who wants to move from a lockin MS life? | Jun 13 18:44 |
_Mutex_ | If nandrive is a part of the GNU/Linux Operating sytsem IF it contains Linus's Kernel called LINUX ,,, then its GNU/Linux as per the definition by the FSF | Jun 13 18:45 |
_Goblin | Mutex - we were talking of ignorance of choice in regards to the average user. What importance is this to the average user who is fed up with Microsoft issues? | Jun 13 18:45 |
_Mutex_ | Its only a concern to anyone who likes to deal it realities and facts, and IF you find that I am saying anything that is not a fact please correct me. | Jun 13 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | as I will correct you if you dont state facts, that can be supported by evidance | Jun 13 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | what do they say "just keeping it real" :) | Jun 13 18:46 |
_Goblin | Mutex, I ask again. We were talking of the average user and a migration from Windows. Please answer the question, what importance is this to the average user? | Jun 13 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | as my job as unofficial BN troll :) | Jun 13 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | What importance is what to the everage users ? | Jun 13 18:47 |
_Mutex_ | Im sorry i missed your question | Jun 13 18:47 |
_Goblin | we were talking about average users and freedom of choice... | Jun 13 18:47 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: so when are you going to say that Mandriva is Ubuntu? | Jun 13 18:47 |
_Mutex_ | Im not | Jun 13 18:47 |
_Goblin | you started off on a discussion about the GPL | Jun 13 18:47 |
_Mutex_ | Mandriva is mandrive and Ubuntu is Ubuntu, both of them use the Linux GPLv2 Kernel that is Linux | Jun 13 18:48 |
_Goblin | I ask again, your opinions/theories on GPL issues are interesting, however what relevance to they have to the average user (which is what we were talking about) | Jun 13 18:48 |
_Mutex_ | they are both linux (well contain the Linux kernel) | Jun 13 18:48 |
_Mutex_ | GPL has absolutely no relevance to the average user | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Goblin | thank you. | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Mutex_ | nor is the EULA | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Goblin | so why move the subject when we were talking about the average user and freedom of choice? | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Mutex_ | GPL gives you the right to view and modify the code, thats your freedom, great I love that. | Jun 13 18:49 |
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_Goblin | Mutex.... | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Goblin | youre doing it again..... | Jun 13 18:49 |
_Mutex_ | except if your not a programmer, then its POINTLESS | Jun 13 18:49 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: freedom 0 is directly relevant to all users | Jun 13 18:50 |
_Goblin | average users DO NOT, want to modify source code. | Jun 13 18:50 |
_Goblin | thats what we were talking about. | Jun 13 18:50 |
_Mutex_ | whats that say ? you are free to use the software ? | Jun 13 18:50 |
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_Goblin | if you want to talk coding issues, I'll happily move on when we are finished with this one. | Jun 13 18:50 |
MinceR | you are free to use it for any purpose | Jun 13 18:50 |
MinceR | regardless of who you are | Jun 13 18:51 |
_Goblin | if we cut all the disputes about GPL, Mono, patents etc at the end of the day the individual has a choice: Linux/Windows/Mac or other....its that simple. | Jun 13 18:52 |
_Mutex_ | unless you change the code, and want to release it, or want to sell your product or you want to change the license, or you want to include proprietary code to it and so on. It is in fact quite a restictive "freedom" | Jun 13 18:52 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: bullshit | Jun 13 18:52 |
_Mutex_ | yes, they do have a choice, clearly and they have taken up that choice. | Jun 13 18:52 |
MinceR | also, another thing that's relevant to most users is that they can freely give it to anyone | Jun 13 18:52 |
_Mutex_ | MinceR well said :) | Jun 13 18:52 |
_Goblin | we can fudge around the issue all day talking about EULA's, but if the "average user" finds that say Ubuntu is a great piece of software for them, then I really dont think they care about anything else.... | Jun 13 18:53 |
_Mutex_ | I can download hundreds of apps that I can get freely, and i can give them to anyone I want, | Jun 13 18:53 |
MinceR | the point is, they don't need to be afraid of legal issues following from its use | Jun 13 18:53 |
_Goblin | Mind you it appears (on some of the large BT Trackers) that MS products are given away freely as well.... | Jun 13 18:53 |
_Mutex_ | Nor do i | Jun 13 18:53 |
_Goblin | I've yet to see an MS civil case in regards to BT | Jun 13 18:54 |
_Mutex_ | I can download hundreds or thousands of apps legally, for free and give them to whoever I please. | Jun 13 18:54 |
MinceR | oh, the classic "it hasn't happened before" defense :> | Jun 13 18:54 |
_Goblin | Maybe it goes back to what gates said "Get them hooked, we will work out how to make a return later" | Jun 13 18:54 |
_Mutex_ | Who said it hasn't happend before ? | Jun 13 18:54 |
MinceR | _Goblin did | Jun 13 18:54 |
_Mutex_ | ahh :) | Jun 13 18:55 |
MinceR | it might be true, i don't know | Jun 13 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | I just assumed it was me LOL | Jun 13 18:55 |
_Goblin | sorry? | Jun 13 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | usually is | Jun 13 18:55 |
MinceR | _Goblin: i was referring to that you said you've yet to see a m$ civil case in regards to BT | Jun 13 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | BT british telecom ? | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Goblin | Bittorrent | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Goblin | p2p | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Mutex_ | Ahh | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Mutex_ | has MS taken any action agaist BT ? | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Mutex_ | I know some governments have | Jun 13 18:56 |
_Mutex_ | ask TPB | Jun 13 18:56 |
MinceR | Brian Wayne Transeau :> | Jun 13 18:56 |
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_Goblin | Theres not enough money for MS to go after filesharers (IMO) and due to being in need of revenue, they hit out at Tom Tom etc.. | Jun 13 18:57 |
_Mutex_ | different issues | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Mutex_ | TOMTOM was a patent issue BT is a file sharing issue | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Goblin | oh come on....you know I knew that... | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Mutex_ | Apples and oranges | Jun 13 18:58 |
MinceR | b$a did threaten those users though | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Mutex_ | as y ou know | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Goblin | what I was saying was that if MS could use P2P as a revenue stream, they would. | Jun 13 18:58 |
_Goblin | the thing is whilst the total effect of MS piracy is massive, pinning it down to a few cases cant happen. | Jun 13 18:59 |
_Mutex_ | im sure if anyone could use it they would ,, hang on, didnt some company buy napster ? | Jun 13 18:59 |
_Mutex_ | I dont think it was MS | Jun 13 19:00 |
_Goblin | it would not be worth (IMO) MS to go after Miss Jones for her sharing Vista. | Jun 13 19:00 |
_Goblin | I was talking about p2p cases of civil damages for piracy of its products. | Jun 13 19:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Why Microsoft's Mono Poison is Unacceptable Garbage: http://digg.com/d1tja5?t | Jun 13 19:00 | |
_Mutex_ | what like the RIAA does ?? thats fair enough, but I dont know of any cases of MS doing it | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Goblin | yep. | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Goblin | and to the best of my knowledge MS are not actively involved in any cases. | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Mutex_ | thats what I think too. | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Goblin | why? | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Goblin | because theres not enough money in it for them. | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Mutex_ | why should they ? | Jun 13 19:01 |
_Goblin | I dont know.....loss of revenue perhaps? | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Mutex_ | Does the RIAA think there is no money in it ? | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Goblin | no but its different.... | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Mutex_ | how | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Goblin | the film companies make a one time hit from a movie..(for example) | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Goblin | MS is an ongoing sale....new pc's etc | Jun 13 19:02 |
_Mutex_ | one time ? one time per person who steals the movie and does not go and see it | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Mutex_ | same difference | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Goblin | not really, since when a user purchases a machine, Windows is present.... | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Mutex_ | Film makers dont make a one time hit from a movie | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Mutex_ | You should know that | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Goblin | they do in regards to DVD.... | Jun 13 19:03 |
_Mutex_ | If they sell ONE DVD you are right | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Goblin | the cinema release is cammed | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Goblin | the dvd is ripped. | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Goblin | and by the time thats done, all thats left for the movie is to sell it to a broadcaster. | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Mutex_ | so say its ripped into a million copies, its not ONE time, its a million times !! | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Goblin | One film.....one chance. | Jun 13 19:04 |
_Mutex_ | you know films make money all the time, after their release, not a ONE OFF payment. | Jun 13 19:05 |
_Goblin | no...the DVD rip is often out before retail. | Jun 13 19:05 |
_Mutex_ | same with music | Jun 13 19:05 |
_Goblin | yes of course, but the impact on having One product (say Star Wars) is that once the title is out is has less value if its mass pirated... | Jun 13 19:06 |
_Mutex_ | yes your right, therefore thats why its illegal. | Jun 13 19:06 |
_Goblin | in respect of say Vista, MS will make money again when a user buys a new machine, regardless if the previous version they had was pirated. | Jun 13 19:06 |
_Goblin | and Mutex....the companies (IMO) prefer it to be unlawful not illegal, and after Ive had my dinner Ill return to say why..... | Jun 13 19:07 |
_Mutex_ | no they wont, they will continue to use the pirated version, Ive never purchased a PC with an OS, if they copied it once, you dont think they will do it again ? | Jun 13 19:07 |
_Mutex_ | LOL ok | Jun 13 19:07 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Microsoft Mafia's Phony Browser Self-Remedy: http://digg.com/d1tjbu?t | Jun 13 19:10 | |
twitter1 | Ugh, Mississippi was bought off with vouchers, " If all vouchers were not claimed a further $8 million could go to the state, he said." | Jun 13 19:11 |
_Mutex_ | whats a voucher ? | Jun 13 19:12 |
twitter1 | M$ will never care about these lawsuits if they can pay them off in Winblows use. | Jun 13 19:12 |
twitter1 | The remedy has to be a cure and elimination of Windows. | Jun 13 19:12 |
_Mutex_ | whats going to happen if one day FSF is hit with a billion dollar fine ? | Jun 13 19:13 |
_Mutex_ | IF | Jun 13 19:13 |
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twitter1 | This Seth guy really paints a rosy picture for Novell that's not remotely connected to reality. http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/mono | Jun 13 19:19 |
twitter1 | Novell's associations with M$ have nearly killed it. That's far from, " As the number of Mono-only features grows, Red Hat's unwillingness to ship Mono begins affecting sales. Novell holds a competitive advantage (self-inflicted by Red Hat) because Red Hat-written features can be shipped by SuSE," | Jun 13 19:21 |
_Mutex_ | Red hat does not sell software !! | Jun 13 19:21 |
_Mutex_ | so how Mono can affect RH "sales" is amusing :) | Jun 13 19:22 |
twitter1 | I can't begin to imagine a "mono only" feature. | Jun 13 19:22 |
twitter1 | other than patent attacks. | Jun 13 19:22 |
twitter1 | hmmmm, why am I twitter1? | Jun 13 19:22 |
twitter1 | I'll have to try this again. brb | Jun 13 19:22 |
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_Mutex_ | replace the word "mono" with "GPLv2 Code just like Linux Kernel" and continue your arguments. :) | Jun 13 19:23 |
_Mutex_ | and see how counter productive it sounds | Jun 13 19:23 |
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twitter1 | test | Jun 13 19:23 |
twitter1 | ugh. | Jun 13 19:23 |
_Mutex_ | passed | Jun 13 19:23 |
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twitter1 | still? | Jun 13 19:24 |
twitter1 | I give up. | Jun 13 19:24 |
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twitter1 | . | Jun 13 19:25 |
twitter1 | \nick twitter | Jun 13 19:25 |
twitter1 | . | Jun 13 19:25 |
_Mutex_ | other slash | Jun 13 19:25 |
maxstirner | how do you reserve a nick on this icq net? | Jun 13 19:26 |
maxstirner | irc sorry | Jun 13 19:26 |
twitter1 | . | Jun 13 19:26 |
maxstirner | i was actually maxstirner1 the other day, i think its autoassigned if theres someone on the net with your nick | Jun 13 19:27 |
twitter1 | the \/nick command should change your nickname | Jun 13 19:27 |
maxstirner | it does but not if its a dupe i guess? | Jun 13 19:27 |
_Mutex_ | its /nick superhero | Jun 13 19:28 |
twitter1 | freenode lets you chose a name and gives you a password | Jun 13 19:28 |
maxstirner | whats the command? | Jun 13 19:28 |
twitter1 | yeah, I put in the escape character to show the forward slash | Jun 13 19:28 |
twitter1 | Don't know the command, I did it months ago through the web, I think. | Jun 13 19:29 |
schestowitz | /nick | Jun 13 19:29 |
maxstirner | thats for setitn gthe nick.. | Jun 13 19:29 |
twitter1 | is it disabled, roy? | Jun 13 19:29 |
maxstirner | /msg nickserv register <your-password> <your-email> | Jun 13 19:29 |
twitter1 | . | Jun 13 19:29 |
*twitter1 is now known as pbj | Jun 13 19:29 | |
*pbj is now known as twitter1 | Jun 13 19:29 | |
schestowitz | *LOL* | Jun 13 19:29 |
_Mutex_ | yay | Jun 13 19:29 |
twitter1 | nope, it won't give me twitter. | Jun 13 19:29 |
schestowitz | Foces of nym gravitatiion | Jun 13 19:30 |
twitter1 | oh well | Jun 13 19:30 |
maxstirner | freenode is big isnt it, its probably in use | Jun 13 19:32 |
maxstirner | just reserve it next time you get it, i just reserved mine with a password | Jun 13 19:32 |
maxstirner | as per http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#registering | Jun 13 19:33 |
*jbartosik1 has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 13 19:33 | |
twitter1 | twitter is reserved with a password | Jun 13 19:34 |
maxstirner | oh really? thats odd then | Jun 13 19:34 |
twitter1 | it was a lame password, so it may have been hijacked or something else may have happened. | Jun 13 19:35 |
twitter1 | this is not the first time | Jun 13 19:35 |
twitter1 | hmmm, I have to wonder what kind of nasty stuff someone may be doing with the twitter nickname. | Jun 13 19:35 |
maxstirner | if it were on here you'd know about it ;) | Jun 13 19:36 |
twitter1 | people at Slashdot already use typo variants of twitter, things like tvviter | Jun 13 19:36 |
_Mutex_ | its not like its popular or anything, but i hope not bad things | Jun 13 19:37 |
_Mutex_ | really that ssucks | Jun 13 19:37 |
twitter1 | they fill the place up with racist and other offensive trash using those names | Jun 13 19:37 |
_Mutex_ | yes, well thats just plain wrong | Jun 13 19:39 |
twitter1 | I collected some of them here http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/204737 | Jun 13 19:41 |
twitter1 | If you really want to see evidence that Slashdot's moderation system is completely failed, just look at the good moderation the troll give themselves in the form of twatter http://slashdot.org/~twatter/comments | Jun 13 19:43 |
MinceR | twitter1: have you registered it? | Jun 13 19:43 |
MinceR | it seems not | Jun 13 19:44 |
MinceR | well, you should have -- then you'd be able to take it back. | Jun 13 19:44 |
twitter1 | I registered twitter, yes. | Jun 13 19:44 |
twitter1 | here's an good example of nickname abuse http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=590281&cid=23876185 | Jun 13 19:45 |
twitter1 | yes, the willyhill nym is also a troll attack | Jun 13 19:45 |
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MinceR | yet nickserv says: 210007 [freenode] -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- twitter is not registered. | Jun 13 19:46 |
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twitter1 | hmmm | Jun 13 19:49 |
maxstirner | try (re-)registering it? | Jun 13 19:49 |
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MinceR | he can't register it as long as he doesn't hold it | Jun 13 19:50 |
twitter1 | why bother, if it's p0wned once, it will be p0ned again. | Jun 13 19:50 |
MinceR | perhaps it expired | Jun 13 19:50 |
twitter1 | ah | Jun 13 19:50 |
MinceR | nick expiration was introduced this week on freenode, iirc | Jun 13 19:50 |
trmanco | lol | Jun 13 19:50 |
twitter1 | expired? why would an actively used nick expire? | Jun 13 19:50 |
MinceR | well, if it was actively used, it couldn't have expired | Jun 13 19:51 |
twitter1 | right | Jun 13 19:51 |
twitter1 | and that leaves us with ... nothing. | Jun 13 19:51 |
*twitter1 is now known as nothing | Jun 13 19:52 | |
maxstirner | bug on new expire feature? | Jun 13 19:52 |
*nothing is now known as bug1 | Jun 13 19:52 | |
*bug1 is now known as nothing | Jun 13 19:52 | |
nothing | It seems as though bug and nothing were registered but it let me have nothing without a problem. | Jun 13 19:53 |
MinceR | dunno, i'm no staffer | Jun 13 19:53 |
*nothing is now known as no_saffer | Jun 13 19:53 | |
no_saffer | woops | Jun 13 19:53 |
*no_saffer is now known as no_staffer | Jun 13 19:53 | |
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no_staffer | I have to wait 13 seconds before nym morphing agian. | Jun 13 19:54 |
no_staffer | It is disgusting how the willyhill nym has excellent karma http://slashdot.org/~willyhill/comments | Jun 13 19:54 |
clamiam | hey guys, whats goin on in dis channel? | Jun 13 19:54 |
_Mutex_ | all sorts of doings happening here :) | Jun 13 19:55 |
no_staffer | yes, it's been a free for troll lately. | Jun 13 19:56 |
*no_staffer is now known as twitter1 | Jun 13 19:56 | |
twitter1 | It's nice when the trolls advertise their intent, http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=141637&cid=11918497 | Jun 13 19:58 |
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twitter1 | wow, the twatter troll lasted about 4 years before migrating to the current sockdisclosure troll | Jun 13 19:59 |
clamiam | true story: i gave up on slashdot | Jun 13 20:00 |
twitter1 | from march of 2005 to august of 2008 | Jun 13 20:00 |
clamiam | i just read Ars now | Jun 13 20:00 |
twitter1 | I still submit stories there, but I have not been published in five months. | Jun 13 20:00 |
twitter1 | BN has picked up the slack from Slashdot. | Jun 13 20:01 |
clamiam | bn? | Jun 13 20:01 |
twitter1 | Boycott Novell, Roy does a better job | Jun 13 20:01 |
clamiam | i should prob start reading LWN again | Jun 13 20:01 |
yuhong | I still read slashdot, but most often read Ars. | Jun 13 20:01 |
_Mutex_ | why do people think free software is easier to port that MS's software, you think FOSS is the only group with a compiler ? | Jun 13 20:02 |
schestowitz | twitter1: freenode emptied their DB | Jun 13 20:02 |
twitter1 | ah | Jun 13 20:02 |
twitter1 | why? | Jun 13 20:02 |
schestowitz | They warned about it 5 days ago in #fsf | Jun 13 20:02 |
schestowitz | Might be worth contacting them. I think they removed what they thought was deprecated | Jun 13 20:02 |
yuhong | BTW, I wrote a blog article on the issue of how Apple | Jun 13 20:03 |
yuhong | BTW, I wrote a blog article on the issue of how Apple's 64-bit transition got disturbed by the Intel transition. | Jun 13 20:03 |
yuhong | http://yuhongbao.blogspot.com/2009/06/history-of-apples-64-bit-transition-and.html | Jun 13 20:03 |
twitter1 | hmm, I think I need to reignore some people | Jun 13 20:03 |
clamiam | yeah i always thought it was funny how the first intel OS Xs were 32-bit | Jun 13 20:04 |
schestowitz | yuhong: please no PM. | Jun 13 20:04 |
schestowitz | <yuhong> So you hate web 2.0, right? | Jun 13 20:04 |
schestowitz | <yuhong> So, looks like you hate Web 2.0, right? | Jun 13 20:04 |
yuhong | OK, thanks. | Jun 13 20:04 |
schestowitz | I worry about it | Jun 13 20:04 |
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schestowitz | It;s the next challenge. To Apple too | Jun 13 20:04 |
schestowitz | And IBM, which is not prepared either | Jun 13 20:05 |
schestowitz | Google is well set | Jun 13 20:05 |
schestowitz | All you data is[sic] belong to Google | Jun 13 20:05 |
yuhong | I know! | Jun 13 20:05 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] End of Microsoft Money Shows Why Free Software is Better and Standards Are Important < http://ping.fm/e3KYd > | Jun 13 20:05 | |
twitter1 | all my money is belong to bank | Jun 13 20:05 |
twitter1 | sometimes, you can trust a service provider. my money is mine, even when it's in the bank. | Jun 13 20:06 |
yuhong | O'Reilly was first to use the term. | Jun 13 20:06 |
yuhong | I think. | Jun 13 20:06 |
twitter1 | Of course, I can keep my data for myself too. | Jun 13 20:07 |
twitter1 | and I might want Google to respect my privacy | Jun 13 20:07 |
_Mutex_ | none of my data belings to google. | Jun 13 20:07 |
yuhong | BTW, I think MS is a good example of how to abuse social media. | Jun 13 20:07 |
twitter1 | but really, I'm sick and tired of Google FUD. | Jun 13 20:07 |
twitter1 | the biggest threat to privacy is Windows. | Jun 13 20:07 |
yuhong | Agreed, Google is not prefect, but it is far better than MS. | Jun 13 20:07 |
_Mutex_ | biggest threat the privacy its the homeland security act | Jun 13 20:08 |
twitter1 | It's malware people run at home, at work, at the hospital and everywhere. | Jun 13 20:08 |
yuhong | There are far far more FUD spreading around Google than legit criticism. | Jun 13 20:08 |
_Mutex_ | and the feds being allowed to spy on US citizens | Jun 13 20:08 |
_Mutex_ | MS are badies compared to that | Jun 13 20:08 |
yuhong | BTW, remember malware is always the malware writer's fault. | Jun 13 20:09 |
yuhong | Regardless of OS. | Jun 13 20:09 |
_Mutex_ | yes it is | Jun 13 20:09 |
_Mutex_ | and the criminal who breaks a lock to enter the buidling and steal is a criminal, not the manufacturer of the lock | Jun 13 20:10 |
yuhong | Yep. | Jun 13 20:10 |
_Mutex_ | man who pulls the trigger, not the gun and so on, we get the picture LOL | Jun 13 20:10 |
yuhong | The security flaw in the lock that allow the criminal to get in may be the manufacturer's fault. | Jun 13 20:10 |
twitter1 | ut oh, freenode might not want me to be twitter "Please avoid using the name of a community project or trademarked entity" | Jun 13 20:10 |
_Mutex_ | the crim still has the break the law the exploit the lock, he's just as much a crim, if there is NO lock at all. | Jun 13 20:11 |
yuhong | twitter1: What is your real name? | Jun 13 20:11 |
twitter1 | I've been twitter for a decade and don't think well of the upstart microblogging service. | Jun 13 20:11 |
yuhong | Correct. | Jun 13 20:11 |
_Mutex_ | Locks only are designed to keep honest people out | Jun 13 20:11 |
yuhong | Yep, locks are not and never has been perfect. | Jun 13 20:12 |
_Mutex_ | wow twitter, you should of copyrighted that name :) | Jun 13 20:12 |
neighborlee | nice..the robert wordpress is getting lots of antidebian sentiment due to mono attempt to install by default.. | Jun 13 20:12 |
_Mutex_ | reading the buzz on the net, it seems the general attitude is that this Mono things is causing the FOSS industry to implode, ripping itself apart. | Jun 13 20:13 |
_Mutex_ | any "outsider" looking at it from the outside will no doubt want to think twice or 3 times before moving to FOSS, after all, now they cant even trust the GPL !!. thats badddd | Jun 13 20:15 |
neighborlee | well | Jun 13 20:15 |
neighborlee | may or may not be M$ attempt to divide and conquer | Jun 13 20:15 |
neighborlee | but if it is.. a nice side effect..whose fault is it, that we're imploding..M$, or us. | Jun 13 20:16 |
neighborlee | the foundation should be strong enough, to avert infestation. | Jun 13 20:16 |
_Mutex_ | all MS did was attempt to work with FOSS, I dont see MS imploding much at all at present, do you ? | Jun 13 20:16 |
_Mutex_ | buts the infestation is allready here, and its due to what FSF's GPLd code. | Jun 13 20:17 |
neighborlee | ballmer: 'linux is a cancer' | Jun 13 20:17 |
neighborlee | come again ? | Jun 13 20:17 |
_Mutex_ | its not MS attacking Linux, its FOSs attacking Ununtu, debian and so on. | Jun 13 20:17 |
yuhong | I know, and of course that is just FUD. | Jun 13 20:17 |
_Mutex_ | its FOSS FUD'ing other FOSS ! | Jun 13 20:18 |
_Mutex_ | and putting into question the validity of the GPL | Jun 13 20:18 |
neighborlee | you sound just like Jo shields now ;)..him and his anger rants | Jun 13 20:18 |
neighborlee | a real potty mouth | Jun 13 20:19 |
fewa | _Mutex_, youve been FUDding all day | Jun 13 20:19 |
_Mutex_ | All im saying is Mono is GPLv2 and by that definition its patent unencumbered, potty mouth refers to foul language, I dont use that | Jun 13 20:19 |
yuhong | Sun Microsystems is in contrast a good example of how to use Web 2.0. | Jun 13 20:19 |
_Mutex_ | Point to something ive said that is not factural ? | Jun 13 20:19 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, so you dont know about the groklaw article I presume ? | Jun 13 20:20 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, and fedor'as latest stance on keeping it out of fedora 12 ? | Jun 13 20:20 |
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 13 20:20 | |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, etc.....I could go on farther but ill let you soak that in first. | Jun 13 20:20 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 20:20 |
_Mutex_ | groklaw, thats not a biased site by any chance :) ok point me to the link that the groklaw article refers to. ie the underlying facts | Jun 13 20:21 |
yuhong | After reading something, I just found another fundementally flaw in PR. | Jun 13 20:21 |
_Mutex_ | I know some FOSS groups dont like it, thats the problem. | Jun 13 20:21 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, your right its not biased | Jun 13 20:21 |
yuhong | It assumes that perception can be manipulated independently of the truth. | Jun 13 20:21 |
_Mutex_ | why would some FOSS groups not accept GPLd code the very GPL teh FSF approved (and wrote) for FOSS ? | Jun 13 20:21 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, if you can't debunk its claims, then your argument is fud | Jun 13 20:22 |
fewa | ^^ | Jun 13 20:22 |
_Mutex_ | I cant prove a negative, no one can , you know that | Jun 13 20:22 |
_Mutex_ | I hope | Jun 13 20:22 |
neighborlee | well try wont you | Jun 13 20:22 |
neighborlee | you seem..reasonably intelligent | Jun 13 20:22 |
neighborlee | ^^ | Jun 13 20:22 |
_Mutex_ | point me to the source of the data and I will happily debunk it | Jun 13 20:22 |
neighborlee | I already did | Jun 13 20:23 |
_Mutex_ | look are deceptive LOL | Jun 13 20:23 |
_Mutex_ | link pls | Jun 13 20:23 |
neighborlee | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080528133529454 | Jun 13 20:23 |
_Mutex_ | the original information, not the groklaw interpretation o fit | Jun 13 20:23 |
fewa | _Mutex_, it links to all its sources | Jun 13 20:23 |
_Mutex_ | ok | Jun 13 20:23 |
fewa | _Mutex_, thats why its so reputable | Jun 13 20:23 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, Rather than guess, I wrote to the Software Freedom Law Center, asking if they could answer some questions about it, and Dan Ravicher eventually answered my questions. The bottom line? I'd say this stuff is radioactive. But you can judge for yourself. "" <<< | Jun 13 20:23 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, try that one | Jun 13 20:24 |
schestowitz | neighborlee: Robert also gets some opposition there to Maulette (?) | Jun 13 20:24 |
neighborlee | yup | Jun 13 20:24 |
_Mutex_ | funny my page from your link comtains NO links whatsoever !!! | Jun 13 20:24 |
_Mutex_ | is that just me ? | Jun 13 20:24 |
neighborlee | apparantly | Jun 13 20:24 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 20:24 |
_Mutex_ | moonlight != Mono | Jun 13 20:25 |
_Mutex_ | do you know actually what mono is ? | Jun 13 20:25 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, no commment about the radioactive judgement ? | Jun 13 20:25 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, no tell me | Jun 13 20:25 |
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fewa | _Mutex_, its a disease | Jun 13 20:25 |
_Mutex_ | its a development platform like Java !! but im sure you know that | Jun 13 20:26 |
neighborlee | well its good to have things clear . | Jun 13 20:26 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 20:26 |
_Mutex_ | so something that is GPLv2 can be a disease ?? gee whats that say for the FSF ? and the GPL ? | Jun 13 20:26 |
_Mutex_ | it cant be good. | Jun 13 20:26 |
fewa | _Mutex_, you asked me what mono is | Jun 13 20:26 |
_Mutex_ | how can we trust the GPL or FSF for that matter ? | Jun 13 20:26 |
fewa | you didnt specify which mono | Jun 13 20:26 |
_Mutex_ | I know what it is | Jun 13 20:26 |
_Mutex_ | and what it isnt, it isnt moonlight | Jun 13 20:27 |
fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_mononucleosis | Jun 13 20:27 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, and moonlight is def. a threat..or do you also think its safe ? | Jun 13 20:27 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, cause we know what fedora thinks about it | Jun 13 20:27 |
fewa | the disease is characterized by fever, sore throat and fatigue, along with several other possible signs and symptoms. | Jun 13 20:27 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, fedora, whom is now removing mono | Jun 13 20:27 |
maxstirner | they really need some workers rights in the US to stop the corporate lackeys from working weekends# | Jun 13 20:27 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 20:27 |
fewa | _Mutex_, and its viral | Jun 13 20:27 |
_Mutex_ | Mono is a .NET framework for development, written by MS, licenses under the GPL , therefore non-patent encumbered, just like the Linux Kernel its simply a chunk of GPLv2 code no more no less. | Jun 13 20:28 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, you mean the invisible ECMA license ?? | Jun 13 20:28 |
_Mutex_ | Just like Linus Torvald's Linux Kernel | Jun 13 20:28 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, tell us more ;) | Jun 13 20:28 |
_Mutex_ | an invisible license ??? you mean nothing ? | Jun 13 20:28 |
_Mutex_ | http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 13 20:29 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, great source ;) | Jun 13 20:30 |
neighborlee | real unbiased. | Jun 13 20:30 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 20:30 |
_Mutex_ | biased or not, the fact is thats the mono license, how can you say its otherwise ?? if you can please link it for us. | Jun 13 20:30 |
twitter1 | shestowitz, this http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/irc-log-12062009/ does not display an irc log. | Jun 13 20:30 |
_Mutex_ | I showed you mine, you show me yours LOL | Jun 13 20:30 |
fewa | _Mutex_, you already got your links | Jun 13 20:30 |
fewa | _Mutex_, you just wont accept reason and intellect | Jun 13 20:31 |
_Mutex_ | and i looked at them, unfortunately they did not provide any information to support your argument, so what else do you have. ? | Jun 13 20:31 |
_Mutex_ | No I prefer facts thanks | Jun 13 20:31 |
twitter1 | mutex is better when ignored. | Jun 13 20:32 |
_Mutex_ | lol im sure it is :) | Jun 13 20:32 |
_Mutex_ | sorry you cant see that :) | Jun 13 20:32 |
_Mutex_ | its easier to ignore me than to provide facts to back up your case I understand :) | Jun 13 20:32 |
_Mutex_ | and its ok. | Jun 13 20:33 |
twitter1 | so the trolls attack Debian now? | Jun 13 20:33 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, just in case you dont know,, or might have forgotten,,here is this also this : http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-10535-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=47762&messageID=889966&start=0 | Jun 13 20:33 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, its up to you of course to counter, or not..debate being what it is | Jun 13 20:33 |
_Mutex_ | ahh zdnet talkback, that should be factural,, we'll see :) | Jun 13 20:34 |
_Mutex_ | yes it is, and yes I will :) | Jun 13 20:34 |
neighborlee | twitter1, yes | Jun 13 20:34 |
neighborlee | twitter1, but they are getting stiff opposition | Jun 13 20:34 |
twitter1 | of course, Debian is a community, much more difficult to trick and bully than a company | Jun 13 20:35 |
neighborlee | yup | Jun 13 20:36 |
twitter1 | I see someone from Debian has taken offense at Jo Shield's misuse of his titles. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/smears-against-boycott-novell/comment-page-1/#comment-66305 | Jun 13 20:37 |
twitter1 | " Please don’t discredit other members of the Debian Mono Group. It’s a team maintaining the Mono runtime and needed/used components around it." | Jun 13 20:38 |
twitter1 | I'm afraid that mono is discredited by M$ directly. | Jun 13 20:39 |
schestowitz | SUSE Interoperability and Mono Good for Microsoft: Easier Migration to Windows < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/13/suse-mono-good-for-windows/ > | Jun 13 20:39 |
neighborlee | twitter1, woah | Jun 13 20:39 |
neighborlee | twitter1, yeah..in time such tactics never last long..short bursts of speed...fast burnOUT ;) | Jun 13 20:40 |
_Mutex_ | I would love to see where MS is descrediting Mono ,, | Jun 13 20:40 |
_Mutex_ | directly | Jun 13 20:40 |
twitter1 | What's the SLOG quote, "Every line of code written to M$ standards is a small victory, every line to someone else's a small defeat" | Jun 13 20:42 |
twitter1 | that we are even talking about a second rate language that none of us would consider using is something of a victory for M$. | Jun 13 20:43 |
_Mutex_ | whats a SLOG ? | Jun 13 20:43 |
schestowitz | twitter1: see latest blog post | Jun 13 20:44 |
schestowitz | The quote is there, coincidentally | Jun 13 20:44 |
twitter1 | it is appropriate | Jun 13 20:44 |
twitter1 | I was enjoying the $300 botnet creation article from cnet. | Jun 13 20:45 |
_Mutex_ | so all them FOSS apps that work on MS systems ?? | Jun 13 20:45 |
_Mutex_ | good or bad ? | Jun 13 20:45 |
_Mutex_ | they are to MS's standards arnt they | Jun 13 20:45 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SUSE Interoperability and Mono Good for Microsoft: Easier Migration to Windows < http://ping.fm/ftYGx > | Jun 13 20:45 | |
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_Mutex_ | its also easier migration to Linux from windows | Jun 13 20:46 |
twitter1 | M$ people are crazy. What has ever been hard about pulling data from a Linux server? | Jun 13 20:46 |
twitter1 | Only M$ people make that kind of thing difficult. | Jun 13 20:47 |
Tallken | schestowitz, that quote of Stallman about Emacs and vi really doesn't fit in "End of Microsoft Money Shows Why Free Software is Better and Standards Are Important" article... it'd be better without it, IMO | Jun 13 20:47 |
_Mutex_ | nothing, its just as easy as pulling data from a solaris server, a VMS server, a BSD server, even a MS server | Jun 13 20:47 |
_Mutex_ | a servers job is to ,,, well SERVE | Jun 13 20:48 |
twitter1 | GNU/Linux servers will always be needed because they Work. | Jun 13 20:48 |
_Mutex_ | yes, things that work tend to be better. | Jun 13 20:48 |
_Mutex_ | ive got a really old Vic20 computer here, it still works, but I dont need it. | Jun 13 20:50 |
twitter1 | no way, Talken, the RMS quote had me laughing out loud. | Jun 13 20:51 |
Tallken | twitter1, it has nothing to do with the article! | Jun 13 20:52 |
Tallken | for an outsider it is a completely unrelated and not-understandable quote | Jun 13 20:52 |
Tallken | even for an insider | Jun 13 20:52 |
twitter1 | is it a Sin to use .DOC as long as you use Open Office? | Jun 13 20:52 |
Tallken | I know the quote | Jun 13 20:52 |
_Mutex_ | “Every line of code that is written to our standards is a small victory; every line of code that is written to any other standard, is a small defeat.” | Jun 13 20:52 |
_Mutex_ | Can I get a copy of teh FOSS coding standard Pls ?? | Jun 13 20:53 |
Tallken | hum | Jun 13 20:53 |
Tallken | still | Jun 13 20:53 |
twitter1 | the quote is about freedom and that's exactly what the article is about | Jun 13 20:53 |
Tallken | I understand you, but I disagree about the coherence with the article, I believe it'd be better if it wasn't there. | Jun 13 20:54 |
Tallken | anyway, just my 2 cents | Jun 13 20:54 |
Tallken | _Mutex_, ? you want the GNU coding guidelines? :p | Jun 13 20:54 |
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_Mutex_ | im more interested in QA standards, standard programming methodology, Code review and analysis methods, but having a "guidelines" is a great start. but only a start. | Jun 13 20:56 |
twitter1 | from the Debian package description, " Gnucash can track finances in multiple accounts, keeping running and reconciled balances. It has an X based graphical user interface, double entry, a hierarchy of accounts, expense accounts (categories), and can import Quicken QIF files and OFX files" | Jun 13 20:56 |
twitter1 | what file format did M$ Money use? | Jun 13 20:56 |
_Mutex_ | sounds exactly what MS money does, or MYOB or one of a hundred other finance software packages, you would expect no less. | Jun 13 20:57 |
_Mutex_ | well I would | Jun 13 20:57 |
twitter1 | Here's someone who looked the problem in the face last year http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2006/12/23/moving-from-microsoft-money-to-gnucash/ | Jun 13 20:58 |
twitter1 | looks like he's going to have to keep looking at it. | Jun 13 20:58 |
twitter1 | never mind, he escaped http://www.movingtofreedom.org/2008/01/09/moving-from-ms-money-to-kmymoney/ | Jun 13 20:58 |
Tallken | _Mutex_, I'll cite Documentation/CodingStyle.txt from the Linux kernel source tree: «First off, I'd suggest printing out a copy of the GNU coding standards, | Jun 13 20:58 |
Tallken | and NOT read it. Burn them, it's a great symbolic gesture.» | Jun 13 20:58 |
MinceR | also, the bike shed should be green | Jun 13 20:59 |
twitter1 | ah, his solution "let it go" | Jun 13 20:59 |
schestowitz | Hi, Tallken | Jun 13 21:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Whats unique about Windows 7? Openbytes article: http://tinyurl.com/l3sjgr #microsoft #windows 7 #windows #vista #xp #linux #foss #7 | Jun 13 21:00 | |
Tallken | hi schestowitz | Jun 13 21:00 |
schestowitz | Thanks, let's leave the quote. it's no big deal, IMHO | Jun 13 21:00 |
schestowitz | Half the readers use GNU/Linux | Jun 13 21:01 |
schestowitz | So it's not a jaw-dropper | Jun 13 21:01 |
twitter1 | ah ha, here's what people need. http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_How_do_I_import_my_data_from_Microsoft_Money.3F | Jun 13 21:02 |
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_Mutex_ | *.mny *.MBF(backup file) and several others like Mn for backup version numbers | Jun 13 21:03 |
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_Goblin | good link twitter1 | Jun 13 21:03 |
twitter1 | thanks | Jun 13 21:04 |
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twitter1 | it took me a while to find | Jun 13 21:04 |
yuhong | On the matter of MS extensions to ACPI, have you heard of ACPI WMI? | Jun 13 21:04 |
DaemonFC | I figured out what's wrong with my webcam, the settings you give it are stored in the device and Vista has an entirely different set of settings for it than the UVC driver in Linux | Jun 13 21:04 |
yuhong | http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/pnppwr/wmi/wmi-acpi.mspx | Jun 13 21:04 |
_Mutex_ | this time, it was easier on google than Bing, go figure for anMS product :) | Jun 13 21:04 |
_Goblin | I hope you don't mind if I refer to it on one of the articles Im running at the moment... | Jun 13 21:04 |
DaemonFC | So every time one system access it, I have to reset it when I boot into the other | Jun 13 21:05 |
_Mutex_ | DeamonFC, as you would expect | Jun 13 21:05 |
_Hicham_ | that is good for u DaemonFC | Jun 13 21:05 |
_Hicham_ | some extra work | Jun 13 21:05 |
twitter1 | Windows breaks everything it touches. | Jun 13 21:06 |
DaemonFC | The UVC driver in Vista is actually compliant with the UVC standard | Jun 13 21:06 |
twitter1 | nothing new there. | Jun 13 21:06 |
DaemonFC | but the Logitech driver is not | Jun 13 21:06 |
DaemonFC | this is Logitech's fault, not Vista | Jun 13 21:06 |
DaemonFC | they have their own driver with their own features | Jun 13 21:06 |
DaemonFC | what's funny is that the UVC driver in Linux is still better | Jun 13 21:06 |
_Hicham_ | better resolution? | Jun 13 21:07 |
DaemonFC | yep | Jun 13 21:07 |
DaemonFC | the Logitech driver has face tracking, the Linux one doesn't | Jun 13 21:07 |
twitter1 | resolve Vista issues by deleting Vista | Jun 13 21:07 |
DaemonFC | and I don't like that feature anyway | Jun 13 21:07 |
DaemonFC | it doesn't work right | Jun 13 21:07 |
yuhong | twitter1: Sometimes that is nesserary, yes, but that is kind of extreme. | Jun 13 21:10 |
yuhong | Vista works OK for me, but I am thinking of freeing disk space and installing Ubuntu. | Jun 13 21:10 |
_Hicham_ | yuhong : u won't | Jun 13 21:11 |
_Hicham_ | u r a Vista lover | Jun 13 21:11 |
DaemonFC | Ubuntu......dear god | Jun 13 21:11 |
*DaemonFC pulls out the cattle prod and does some shock therapy | Jun 13 21:11 | |
_Mutex_ | how can you "love" software ?? I mean really !!!! | Jun 13 21:12 |
DaemonFC | you keep spraying and spraying for them, but they keep coming back | Jun 13 21:12 |
DaemonFC | (Ubuntu fanboys) | Jun 13 21:12 |
_Mutex_ | its like a mechanic loving a spanner | Jun 13 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | yes, like u do _Mutex_ | Jun 13 21:12 |
DaemonFC | I doubt anyone particularly likes Vista | Jun 13 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | u love mutices | Jun 13 21:12 |
_Mutex_ | actually forget that, the mental picture is a bit scary LOL | Jun 13 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | and critical sections | Jun 13 21:12 |
DaemonFC | most people either don't know they're using Windows or has it because of the millions that don't know they're using it but have created a market for Windows software | Jun 13 21:13 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC loves nothing | Jun 13 21:13 |
DaemonFC | *have | Jun 13 21:13 |
_Hicham_ | the computer is Windows | Jun 13 21:13 |
_Hicham_ | Windows = Computer | Jun 13 21:13 |
DaemonFC | pretty much | Jun 13 21:13 |
DaemonFC | sold with the computer | Jun 13 21:13 |
DaemonFC | supported for the same amount of time as the hardware | Jun 13 21:14 |
_Hicham_ | some people ask : which Windows is that computer? | Jun 13 21:14 |
DaemonFC | the recovery DVD puts Windows back on | Jun 13 21:14 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 21:14 |
DaemonFC | the people at your ISP ask if Linux is some kind of Mac | Jun 13 21:14 |
DaemonFC | seriously, they did | Jun 13 21:14 |
_Mutex_ | when im working on something like a peice of electronics sometimes I need a flat blade screwdriver, sometimes a philips head, and sometimes a torque driver, Different tool for different jobs, OS's and computers are exactly the same, its a tool to do a job, no more , no less. some tools work well for some things some done, they require another tool. its not that hard | Jun 13 21:14 |
DaemonFC | everytime the cable goes out and comes back up, the modem loads "walledgarden.cm" | Jun 13 21:15 |
_Hicham_ | _Mutex_ : hardware is not software | Jun 13 21:15 |
DaemonFC | and asks you to install their Windows setup software | Jun 13 21:15 |
_Mutex_ | so sometimes I like philips head screwdrivers, because I have a philips screw to turn, sometimes I have a flat screw to turn, that requires another tool. | Jun 13 21:15 |
DaemonFC | every page you go to | Jun 13 21:15 |
_Mutex_ | gee really !!! I never knew that :) | Jun 13 21:15 |
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_Mutex_ | go figure, hardware is not software, , hardware and software are just tools. and the thing with hardware (ie computers) is that they are useless without software | Jun 13 21:16 |
DaemonFC | "Linux? Is that some kind of Mac then?" | Jun 13 21:16 |
*DaemonFC thinking "No you stupid twit, it's a cat in a hat" | Jun 13 21:16 | |
_Mutex_ | therefore they are one and the same, it is a tool a device to do things with, like a screwdriver | Jun 13 21:16 |
_Mutex_ | sam i am | Jun 13 21:17 |
yuhong | I am not that much of a Vista lover, in fact I am neutral. | Jun 13 21:17 |
starcannon | Hey everyone, after doing some reading up on your site, and others, I have decided to clean mono out of my install; can anyone recommend an Ubuntu easy distro that is mono free? | Jun 13 21:17 |
DaemonFC | 32-bit x86? Use Mandriva One KDE | Jun 13 21:17 |
DaemonFC | no mono on that | Jun 13 21:17 |
_Hicham_ | _Mutex_ : from ur point of view yes | Jun 13 21:17 |
_Mutex_ | neutral, how dare you be neutral here, you have to come here with pre-conceived idea's | Jun 13 21:17 |
_Hicham_ | if u r seeing them as tools only | Jun 13 21:18 |
starcannon | DaemonFC i left mandriva because of the whole "Club Mandriva" stuff, is that resolved? | Jun 13 21:18 |
_Mutex_ | what do you see it as ? | Jun 13 21:18 |
DaemonFC | starcannon: Most KDE distros don't have Mono | Jun 13 21:18 |
DaemonFC | most GNOME ones do | Jun 13 21:18 |
_Mutex_ | if not a tool then what is it? | Jun 13 21:18 |
DaemonFC | so you could just switch to Kubuntu | Jun 13 21:18 |
DaemonFC | if you don't want to relearn everything | Jun 13 21:18 |
starcannon | DaemonFC nod, cool, I'll just google it then, just thought this would be the place to find a list for a lazy git like myself ;) | Jun 13 21:19 |
fewa | Debian GNOMe also doesnt have mono AFAIK | Jun 13 21:19 |
_Hicham_ | Mono is everywhere | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | Debian has Mono | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | and Banshee | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | and F-Spot | Jun 13 21:19 |
fewa | DaemonFC, not by default | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | and Monsoon | Jun 13 21:19 |
_Hicham_ | slackware doesn't have mono I think | Jun 13 21:19 |
_Mutex_ | mono is as common as GPLed code ... oh wait,, | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | yes Mono is default | Jun 13 21:19 |
DaemonFC | on Debian | Jun 13 21:19 |
fewa | DaemonFC, gmm i installed lenny GNOME | Jun 13 21:19 |
fewa | and upgraded through testing and dont have it | Jun 13 21:19 |
_Hicham_ | lenny don't have | Jun 13 21:20 |
DaemonFC | are you sure? | Jun 13 21:20 |
fewa | gnome-desktop-environment has not pulled it in | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Hicham_ | sid will | Jun 13 21:20 |
DaemonFC | I had it when I was trying Lenny | Jun 13 21:20 |
DaemonFC | it was an old version though | Jun 13 21:20 |
fewa | yes | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | just in-install it | Jun 13 21:20 |
starcannon | DaemonFC nod, I've known there to be Mono in my Ubuntu install for sometime, but I decided to wait, read, and see before I made up my mind to ditch it (you have to admit many of the mono apps are very good, I just don't like the license) | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Hicham_ | Debian have moonlight too | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | you guys have total control of your OS, so im told. | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | should be trivial to bash out a command to wipe it from your rig | Jun 13 21:20 |
DaemonFC | well, there's no QT bindings for Mono yet | Jun 13 21:20 |
_Hicham_ | _Mutex_ : what is ur OS? | Jun 13 21:20 |
DaemonFC | as far as I know | Jun 13 21:21 |
_Mutex_ | hang on ill check | Jun 13 21:21 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : make them | Jun 13 21:21 |
DaemonFC | when there's a QT#, KDE distros may bundle Mono | Jun 13 21:21 |
yuhong | In fact your claim that I will never install Linux just make me want to install it more. | Jun 13 21:21 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC# is a good binding | Jun 13 21:21 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ removing Mono isn't the issue, I want to use and support distro's that do not put it in by default, I don't mind it being in the repository; indeed, I believe in freedom of choice, but I do not like it there on my liveCD | Jun 13 21:21 |
DaemonFC | starcannon: You can uninstall Mono, it comes right out, just replace F-Spot with gphoto and Tomboy with gnote | Jun 13 21:21 |
*DaemonFC is now known as DaemonFC-Sharp | Jun 13 21:22 | |
DaemonFC-Sharp | :) | Jun 13 21:22 |
starcannon | snicker | Jun 13 21:22 |
fewa | fedora 11 gnome doesnt seem to have mono | Jun 13 21:22 |
fewa | but im not a rpm master | Jun 13 21:22 |
*DaemonFC-Sharp is now known as DaemonFC | Jun 13 21:23 | |
_Hicham_ | using System.Virus.DaemonFC | Jun 13 21:23 |
*DaemonFC is now known as Windows | Jun 13 21:23 | |
Windows | :P | Jun 13 21:23 |
starcannon | fewa yeah I just read that they purged it from the default install, its certainly one I'm considering | Jun 13 21:23 |
*Windows is now known as DaemonFC | Jun 13 21:23 | |
_Hicham_ | what is the meaning of FC? | Jun 13 21:23 |
_Hicham_ | u never answered that | Jun 13 21:24 |
starcannon | Fedora Core? | Jun 13 21:24 |
_Mutex_ | sory I dont own an os, but mabey if we keep growing untold distro's I may just have my own OS (distro) except Linus will really own the bulk of it, and the FSF the rest, so No i dont see me owning an OS any time soon,,, and you ?? | Jun 13 21:24 |
_Hicham_ | I don't think so | Jun 13 21:24 |
fewa | starcannon, a very free distrobution, and redhat/fedora does alot of cutting edge work in linux | Jun 13 21:24 |
DaemonFC | sudo apt-get install windowsformsdaemonfc | Jun 13 21:24 |
DaemonFC | :) | Jun 13 21:24 |
_Mutex_ | football club | Jun 13 21:25 |
*DaemonFC is now known as DaemonMDV-Sharp | Jun 13 21:25 | |
_Mutex_ | like manchester united FC | Jun 13 21:25 |
*DaemonMDV-Sharp is now known as DaemonMDV | Jun 13 21:25 | |
DaemonMDV | yes, it's a misnomer I know | Jun 13 21:25 |
starcannon | I noticed that Minix seems to still be in development :) hehe | Jun 13 21:25 |
starcannon | at least as late as April of this year | Jun 13 21:26 |
_Hicham_ | rpm -ivh DaemonFC-Sharp-2.4.0-1mdv2009.1.i586.rpm | Jun 13 21:26 |
DaemonMDV | Minix is not bad, very novel | Jun 13 21:26 |
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DaemonMDV | I've put it on a 486 laptop | Jun 13 21:26 |
DaemonMDV | it can load X and Equinox Desktop | Jun 13 21:26 |
DaemonMDV | it's pretty fast too | Jun 13 21:26 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV yeah, I installed it on a virtual machine, it was cool, but not ready to be my desktop just yet | Jun 13 21:26 |
DaemonMDV | well no, it's not production grade (whatever that is) | Jun 13 21:27 |
*DaemonMDV suspects it's like Linspire | Jun 13 21:27 | |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 13 21:27 |
starcannon | lol | Jun 13 21:27 |
_Mutex_ | its been around for a million years, | Jun 13 21:27 |
starcannon | It inspired Linus | Jun 13 21:27 |
DaemonMDV | http://kevincarmony.com/linspire_videos/RunLinspire.swf | Jun 13 21:28 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 13 21:28 |
_Mutex_ | it was the example os that Linus used as a basis for his Linux, and yes i know Minix is a micro-kernel and Linux is monolithic but they are both Posix/Unix based. | Jun 13 21:28 |
starcannon | I virtualized linspire once, there were some cool ideas in it | Jun 13 21:28 |
DaemonMDV | Just one click install for you | Jun 13 21:28 |
DaemonMDV | then the binary blob will take you higher | Jun 13 21:28 |
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_Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : did u have KMS on Mandriva? | Jun 13 21:29 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ wasn't Minix always (at least back then) a CS educational tool? I thought I read that somewhere, just trying to remember if I'm recalling correctly | Jun 13 21:29 |
DaemonMDV | I think it supports it, but only on Intel | Jun 13 21:30 |
_Mutex_ | yes it was, it was in a text book on OS design. | Jun 13 21:30 |
yuhong | Yep, on Minix, I remember MS paying Ken Brown to allege that Linux copied code from Minix. | Jun 13 21:30 |
yuhong | To spread FUD, of course. | Jun 13 21:30 |
starcannon | yuhong yeah, and he did quite the opposite | Jun 13 21:30 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : it is a shame that fedora is the only one to support KMS | Jun 13 21:31 |
_Mutex_ | had all the code segments and UNIX structure in it, Linus took each segment and re-wrote them for Linux, sort of semi-cleanroom method | Jun 13 21:31 |
fewa | KMS? | Jun 13 21:31 |
yuhong | And of course, there was the Linus-Tannibium debate about microkernels. | Jun 13 21:31 |
_Hicham_ | I really don't respect the other distros | Jun 13 21:31 |
_Mutex_ | read Linus's initial letter, and watch RMS on a video (which i cant remember the name) where he said, "we took each block from Unix and replaced them one by one with OUR code". | Jun 13 21:31 |
starcannon | aye, and I'd fell relatively safe betting that this far down the road, anything that could be mistaken for other code has been scoured | Jun 13 21:31 |
_Hicham_ | all the others are waiting for upstream to stabilize it | Jun 13 21:32 |
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_Mutex_ | so there were times when Linux code and Minux/Unix code were running together, but over time the Minux/Unix peices were replaced block by block. | Jun 13 21:32 |
starcannon | yeah I keep meaning to read up on the micro vs monolithic kernel debate | Jun 13 21:32 |
_Mutex_ | thats from RMS's mount | Jun 13 21:32 |
_Hicham_ | micro kernel is just a myth | Jun 13 21:32 |
_Mutex_ | mouth | Jun 13 21:32 |
_Hicham_ | micro kernel is obsolete | Jun 13 21:32 |
MinceR | _Hicham_: how so? | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Mutex_ | sure if you consider AmigaOS a myth | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Mutex_ | AmigaOS was years ahead of its time, | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Goblin | wow... | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Goblin | I agree with Mutex on something | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Hicham_ | what about its hardware support? | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Goblin | and completely. | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Mutex_ | I should now shut up while im ahead | Jun 13 21:33 |
_Goblin | ;) or maybe I should? | Jun 13 21:33 |
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_Hicham_ | u r not ahead | Jun 13 21:34 |
_Hicham_ | it is a very old idea | Jun 13 21:34 |
mib_5506ka | Good evening! | Jun 13 21:34 |
_Hicham_ | from Sir Tannenbaum | Jun 13 21:34 |
_Mutex_ | The MOST secure OS EAL 7 i think is a micro-kernal os. | Jun 13 21:35 |
_Mutex_ | Linux and windows tops out at EAL4 | Jun 13 21:35 |
_Hicham_ | does it perform well? | Jun 13 21:35 |
mib_5506ka | How about exokernels? Not that I have seen any alive. But the concept is interesting. | Jun 13 21:36 |
_Mutex_ | im sure it does, | Jun 13 21:36 |
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_Hicham_ | monolithic kernels will stay for ever | Jun 13 21:37 |
MinceR | mib_5506ka: what are exokernels? | Jun 13 21:37 |
_Hicham_ | as they perform better than the other ones | Jun 13 21:38 |
MinceR | _Hicham_: also, 640k ought to be enough for anybody | Jun 13 21:38 |
mib_5506ka | Monolithis is in principle OK, I just fear ar bit waht happens when they grow and grow. | Jun 13 21:38 |
MinceR | and nothing that's heavier than air can fly | Jun 13 21:38 |
_Mutex_ | all monolithic means is all the drivers and other crap in the OS, not necessary for kernel functions are lunped into one blob, micro-kernel means those extra bits are where they should be in user land, not progected land where they can do more damage and higher risk. | Jun 13 21:38 |
MinceR | and you can only produce light by burning | Jun 13 21:38 |
MinceR | _Hicham_: performance is not the only thing that matters. | Jun 13 21:38 |
mib_5506ka | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exokernel | Jun 13 21:39 |
_Hicham_ | MinceR : what else matters? | Jun 13 21:39 |
MinceR | _Hicham_: reliability, security, functionality | Jun 13 21:39 |
mib_5506ka | " Exokernels are tiny, since functionality is limited to ensuring protection and multiplexing of resources, which are vastly simpler than conventional microkernels' implementation of message passing and monolithic kernels' implementation of abstractions." | Jun 13 21:39 |
_Mutex_ | one time someone said there will be no more than 3 computers on the planet, thats all we'll ever need !! | Jun 13 21:39 |
mib_5506ka | Maybe it is enough, I have just two. | Jun 13 21:39 |
_Mutex_ | the kernel is tiny, but its can still have all the functionality of a mono os just that functionality is not in Kernel space | Jun 13 21:40 |
DaemonMDV | it looks liek Fedora 11 is a little faster than Ubuntu on most of the Phoronix test suite | Jun 13 21:40 |
DaemonMDV | doesn't surprise me | Jun 13 21:40 |
MinceR | mib_5506ka: the exokernel idea doesn't seem to convincing to me | Jun 13 21:40 |
_Hicham_ | Fedora 11 is the fastest distro in the market | Jun 13 21:40 |
_Hicham_ | no doubt | Jun 13 21:40 |
_Hicham_ | from my experience | Jun 13 21:40 |
DaemonMDV | I like Mandriva so far | Jun 13 21:41 |
DaemonMDV | Fedora 11 would be OK if it wasn't for the partitioning nightmare | Jun 13 21:41 |
mib_5506ka | Right now I run Suse and Mepis (Debian). | Jun 13 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | partitioning? | Jun 13 21:41 |
_Mutex_ | reliability, stability, functionality, quality, asthetics, performance, availability, support, ... and soon, | Jun 13 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | u have GParted | Jun 13 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | like Ubuntu | Jun 13 21:41 |
DaemonMDV | no | Jun 13 21:42 |
DaemonMDV | they want to use LVM, and you have to have an Ext3 boot partition | Jun 13 21:42 |
mib_5506ka | I did select Mepis for an old laptop, it was the first that did install easily. | Jun 13 21:42 |
starcannon | started to read the Linus vs.Tanenbaum debate, but after reading the number 8088 more than once I realized that while historically interesting, it was not likely going to matter other wise | Jun 13 21:42 |
_Hicham_ | of course u should have a boot partition | Jun 13 21:42 |
DaemonMDV | of course it really doesn't matter | Jun 13 21:42 |
_Hicham_ | upstream won't put ext4 support in grub for a while | Jun 13 21:43 |
_Hicham_ | until ext4 will be stable | Jun 13 21:43 |
DaemonMDV | Fedora can boto Ext4 | Jun 13 21:43 |
mib_5506ka | On external (USB) disks I do not bother with a boot partition, I reorganixe the that often. | Jun 13 21:43 |
trmanco | heh | Jun 13 21:43 |
DaemonMDV | but you have to trick it | Jun 13 21:43 |
DaemonMDV | *boot | Jun 13 21:43 |
trmanco | DaemonMDV, let me guess, you're on KDE? | Jun 13 21:43 |
DaemonMDV | it's not that GRUB is incapable | Jun 13 21:43 |
_Hicham_ | with a patch for grub, I know | Jun 13 21:43 |
DaemonMDV | no, Fedora 10's GRUB can boot Ext4 | Jun 13 21:43 |
_Hicham_ | I am against that patch for now | Jun 13 21:44 |
DaemonMDV | their file system guy is weird and doesn't trust it | Jun 13 21:44 |
_Hicham_ | no, upstream grub doesn't boot into ext4 | Jun 13 21:44 |
_Hicham_ | that is why | Jun 13 21:44 |
_Hicham_ | they stick to upstream | Jun 13 21:44 |
starcannon | _Hicham_ thats a goodness, I checked it out on 9.04, it is finicky, and I am not geeky enough to know why. It would work on some hardware, and not on other (oh it was fine until post install stuff like adding in hardware specific kernel modules etc..) | Jun 13 21:44 |
_Hicham_ | they can patch it like ubuntu, but they respect upstream | Jun 13 21:44 |
_Hicham_ | plus, Ubuntu 9.04 with ext4 have caused some damage on some disks | Jun 13 21:45 |
mib_5506ka | Is ext4 in good shape? I use to be quite conseravtive when choosing file systems; I let it be a few years old before using it. | Jun 13 21:45 |
DaemonMDV | _Hicham_: Fedora 10 can boot Ext4 | Jun 13 21:45 |
_Hicham_ | due to their funny patches | Jun 13 21:45 |
_Mutex_ | Green Hills Software obtains EAL6+ operating system security certification | Jun 13 21:46 |
DaemonMDV | the setup program won't let you | Jun 13 21:46 |
DaemonMDV | but you can rig it that way later | Jun 13 21:46 |
_Mutex_ | http://avi.pennnet.com/display_article/346358/143/NEWS/none/none/1/Green-Hills-Software-obtains-EAL6+-operating-system-security-certification/ | Jun 13 21:46 |
_Hicham_ | u mean that grub can be installed on an ext4 partition? | Jun 13 21:46 |
DaemonMDV | the only thing keeping Fedora from booting on Ext4 is that their setup program won't allow it | Jun 13 21:46 |
DaemonMDV | their version of GRUB can and will | Jun 13 21:46 |
DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 13 21:47 |
_Hicham_ | it is 0.97 | Jun 13 21:47 |
DaemonMDV | Mandriva can boot Ext4 or XFS, so can Ubuntu | Jun 13 21:47 |
twitter1 | bbl | Jun 13 21:47 |
DaemonMDV | Suse can boot XFS | Jun 13 21:47 |
DaemonMDV | Ext4 will be in 11.2 | Jun 13 21:47 |
mib_5506ka | Sure. I do it. | Jun 13 21:47 |
mib_5506ka | Boot XFS. | Jun 13 21:47 |
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_Goblin | MDV...What does that mean? | Jun 13 21:48 |
DaemonMDV | I'm using Ext4 for everything on this system | Jun 13 21:48 |
mib_5506ka | Is it reliable enough? | Jun 13 21:48 |
DaemonMDV | as long as you have kernel 2.6.29.3 | Jun 13 21:49 |
DaemonMDV | then yeah | Jun 13 21:49 |
DaemonMDV | the Ext4 patches for 2.6.30 are being backported into the 2.6.29 point releases | Jun 13 21:49 |
DaemonMDV | so it shouldn't be any more dangerous than Ext3 | Jun 13 21:49 |
_Hicham_ | 2.6.30 have been released | Jun 13 21:50 |
_Hicham_ | why use 2.6.29? | Jun 13 21:50 |
DaemonMDV | yeah, so? | Jun 13 21:50 |
starcannon | I'm still running 2.6.27-14 | Jun 13 21:50 |
DaemonMDV | is there a reason I need to use thousands of lines of untested code? | Jun 13 21:50 |
_Hicham_ | untested? | Jun 13 21:50 |
mib_5506ka | We got a lot of file system, but still I have not seen any usable SQL filesystem. it would be nice to poke at DB tables directly with vi. | Jun 13 21:50 |
DaemonMDV | what will it make my system do that it can't do now? | Jun 13 21:50 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV yes there is, and no, I do not think it warrants an explanation ;) | Jun 13 21:50 |
DaemonMDV | It's usualyl better to stay back one version | Jun 13 21:51 |
DaemonMDV | and jsut use point releases | Jun 13 21:51 |
DaemonMDV | otherwise you can end up with all kinds of problems | Jun 13 21:51 |
_Hicham_ | bad attitude | Jun 13 21:51 |
DaemonMDV | like the network problems with 2.6.29 | Jun 13 21:51 |
DaemonMDV | that were fixed in 2.6.29.1 | Jun 13 21:51 |
DaemonMDV | if it's not going to do anything for me except bring in a lot of bugs that I don't have now | Jun 13 21:52 |
DaemonMDV | why do it? | Jun 13 21:52 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV your supposed to offer your hard earned data up to the kernel gods, it will allow you to ascend to quantum computing in your next life | Jun 13 21:52 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.opera.com/freedom | Jun 13 21:53 |
DaemonMDV | hmmmm | Jun 13 21:53 |
mib_5506ka | Yeah, but I want to see the copmuters in this life, not the next one. | Jun 13 21:53 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV on a more serious note, I guess the only reason to do it is in order to help test it, not useful or overly so for a mission critical machine I should not think though | Jun 13 21:53 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/opera_freedom/ | Jun 13 21:53 |
DaemonMDV | Opera to 'reinvent the web' in four days | Jun 13 21:54 |
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mib_5506ka | Is Al Gore working for Opera? | Jun 13 21:54 |
mib_5506ka | I thought that he was busy keeping uis warm? | Jun 13 21:54 |
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starcannon | doh closed wrong browser window | Jun 13 21:55 |
_Mutex_ | All you huge brains out there DARPA is looking for YOU,,, (but its not like they invented the internet or anything !! ) | Jun 13 21:55 |
_Mutex_ | he found it to inconvient | Jun 13 21:56 |
_Mutex_ | the truth that is | Jun 13 21:56 |
starcannon | My brain may be advanced enough to use as a speed bump in the DARPA parking lot, other than that I doubt they would consider me for much else | Jun 13 21:56 |
_Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 13 21:56 |
mib_5506ka | The Internet was designed to survive a nuclear attack, but does it suvive spam, popups and commercials? | Jun 13 21:59 |
mib_5506ka | ... especially Javascript. | Jun 13 21:59 |
neighborlee | mib_5506ka, I dont think the subject of global warming is all that funny as it affects many people ;) < unless you were just being facetious> | Jun 13 22:01 |
mib_5506ka | I like Global Warming. I am no fun of winter and I get more berries form my garden when the sumemr is longer. | Jun 13 22:02 |
mib_5506ka | fan of winter... | Jun 13 22:02 |
_Mutex_ | hopefully you dont live too close to the sea then !! | Jun 13 22:03 |
mib_5506ka | I like boating. Ayway the Anthropogenic Global Warming is a sad hoax anyway. See for instance http://antigreen.blogspot.com/ | Jun 13 22:04 |
_Mutex_ | and if you really really like global warning, go to mars, and see whats its done to that planet :) (or :() | Jun 13 22:04 |
starcannon | I agree _Mutex_; indeed, regardless of ones view of its biggest messenger, the ice caps continue to melt. | Jun 13 22:04 |
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mib_5506ka | Ice caps: http://jennifermarohasy.com/blog/2009/06/sea-ice-extent-now-normal-in-arctic/ | Jun 13 22:05 |
_Mutex_ | explain that to the nice people of Tuvalu that goes 50 inches under the OCEAN on high tides !! | Jun 13 22:06 |
starcannon | I'm not too worried though, either I'll be eaten by a Chupacabra http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupacabra, 2012 will arrive http://www.2012warning.com/ , or the Rapture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture will happen. I've made sure to make sacrifices to all the correct deities so I should be drinking beer with his noodly appendage no matter what happens | Jun 13 22:08 |
_Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 13 22:08 |
_Mutex_ | you and ned flanders will be happy together :) | Jun 13 22:09 |
starcannon | Nah, that toad don't drink beer *shakes fist in anger at Flanders* ohhh pork chops | Jun 13 22:09 |
_Mutex_ | damn you sexy flander | Jun 13 22:10 |
DaemonMDV | La Chupacabra will devour you all | Jun 13 22:10 |
DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 13 22:10 |
DaemonMDV | repent! | Jun 13 22:10 |
starcannon | *sings* run for the hills, run for your liiii-iii-iiiife | Jun 13 22:10 |
starcannon | or is it "run to the hills" bah, time to dig through my 80's metal and find out | Jun 13 22:11 |
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mib_5506ka | There may be bad spirits on the hills. | Jun 13 22:11 |
starcannon | Not as bad as Chupacabra, why do you think they ran to the hills to begin with? | Jun 13 22:12 |
mib_5506ka | Who is this frighteing Chupacabra? | Jun 13 22:13 |
schestowitz | ushimitsudoki has begun a project: https://launchpad.net/scalculator | Jun 13 22:13 |
schestowitz | GPLv3 :-) | Jun 13 22:13 |
schestowitz | So he'll spent time developing | Jun 13 22:13 |
mib_5506ka | Sounds like Santa Muerte. | Jun 13 22:13 |
_Mutex_ | I just really like the word "cryptozoological" | Jun 13 22:13 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ haha okies | Jun 13 22:13 |
DaemonMDV | hmmm, Beagle is still more resource efficient than Vista Search | Jun 13 22:13 |
starcannon | Mono lover ;) | Jun 13 22:14 |
DaemonMDV | it takes 56 megs | Jun 13 22:14 |
DaemonMDV | Vista Search takes about 90-100 | Jun 13 22:14 |
starcannon | I haven't dealt with Vista too much. | Jun 13 22:15 |
mib_5506ka | "cryptozoological"? Does that animal use AES and RSA? I guess that Homo Sapiens is the only "cryptozoologial" thing. | Jun 13 22:15 |
DaemonMDV | hmmm, Mandriva has Preload by default | Jun 13 22:15 |
DaemonMDV | interesting | Jun 13 22:15 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Promotes SUSE Coupons (Software Patents) < http://ping.fm/zADDc > | Jun 13 22:15 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Criticism of Mono Now “Disappearing” < http://ping.fm/hNm3o > | Jun 13 22:15 | |
starcannon | I have a couple machines that shipped with it, never took time to boot it though, just stabbed a liveCD in, pressed ESC, booted from CDROM and scrubbed it. | Jun 13 22:15 |
mib_5506ka | Is it possible to chase Vista on to an externa disk and boot it from there? | Jun 13 22:16 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Didn't I tell you Ubuntu is bad news? | Jun 13 22:16 |
DaemonMDV | they censor everything they don't like | Jun 13 22:16 |
_Mutex_ | Tuvulu is famous for one thing, (well 2 acutally), but its domain extension is .tv | Jun 13 22:16 |
mib_5506ka | TV is a vaste of time. :) | Jun 13 22:17 |
starcannon | I really like Ubuntu, its easy to setup and use, perhaps its time for GNUbuntu? | Jun 13 22:17 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: You think Banshee would run better in Java? | Jun 13 22:17 |
DaemonMDV | hmmmm | Jun 13 22:17 |
mib_5506ka | Ouff I hate Java. | Jun 13 22:18 |
mib_5506ka | Java is like filling your box with snails. | Jun 13 22:18 |
_Mutex_ | I like coffee | Jun 13 22:18 |
starcannon | I think Mono rocks, I just don't like its license, and I'm unwilling to use it because of that issue. | Jun 13 22:18 |
_Mutex_ | you dont like the GPL !! | Jun 13 22:18 |
mib_5506ka | What do people use Mono for? I never tried, I get allergic reactions form the Microsoft smell. | Jun 13 22:21 |
_Mutex_ | its a programming development platform, like java | Jun 13 22:21 |
starcannon | I'm looking at the http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing page right now. It's using so many different licenses for various aspects, and then .NET having its own legalese issues, I just want it to be FOSS or not be bothered. I can always dual boot if I am required to run licensed software for some reason. | Jun 13 22:21 |
mib_5506ka | But for running .NET things? | Jun 13 22:21 |
_Mutex_ | and yes, just like Linux grew from UNIX which was proprietary, Mono has its roots in proprietary too, both linux and Mono are under the SAME license | Jun 13 22:22 |
starcannon | I avoid .NET like a plague. | Jun 13 22:22 |
_Mutex_ | and yes, its for .net development framework, no more no less. | Jun 13 22:22 |
DaemonMDV | Mono makes it easier to port .Net apps | Jun 13 22:22 |
DaemonMDV | but it's not directly compatible | Jun 13 22:22 |
_Mutex_ | Being GPL it cannot be patent encumbered | Jun 13 22:22 |
mib_5506ka | Dual booot, hmm... have your trien KVN, XEN, Wmware? | Jun 13 22:22 |
_Mutex_ | thats right it makes it easier to go from windows to linux, or from Linux to windows, or to cross develop.l | Jun 13 22:23 |
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DaemonMDV | the FSF have their own version of .Net | Jun 13 22:23 |
DaemonMDV | called Portable.Net | Jun 13 22:23 |
_Mutex_ | it actually increases users freedoms, and you dont need to use it if y ou dont want too, thats true freedom | Jun 13 22:23 |
DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable.Net | Jun 13 22:24 |
maxstirner | no need for going back and forth soon.. can't see much of a future for MS | Jun 13 22:24 |
_Mutex_ | the FSF also has THE .net framework, its called Mono, under the FSF license of teh GPL | Jun 13 22:24 |
mib_5506ka | How compatible is it? Can you run Bull Gates on it? | Jun 13 22:24 |
DaemonMDV | Part of the DotGNU project, Portable.NET is a free software and open source software initiative aiming to build a portable toolchain and runtime for Common Language Infrastructure applications. The project focuses on compatibility with the ECMA-334 and ECMA-335 standards and support for .NET's base class libraries, XML, and Windows Forms. As of March 20, 2007, the latest release of Portable.NET wass 0.8.0. The project supports a | Jun 13 22:24 |
DaemonMDV | different CPU architectures and operating systems. | Jun 13 22:24 |
DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DotGNU | Jun 13 22:24 |
DaemonMDV | DotGNU is a part of the GNU Project that aims to provide a free software replacement for Microsoft's .NET Framework by Free Software Foundation. Other goals of the project are better support for non-Windows platforms and support for more processors. | Jun 13 22:24 |
_Mutex_ | then there is no reason, why anyone cannot take the Mono GPL | Jun 13 22:25 |
mib_5506ka | Hey, have you heard about the combined WinAPI + Linux kernel project? | Jun 13 22:25 |
mib_5506ka | something like Wine in the kernel. | Jun 13 22:25 |
_Mutex_ | 'code and make their own framework out of it, thats the power of the GPL right ?? im I right | Jun 13 22:25 |
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DaemonMDV | obviously the FSF has a big legal department | Jun 13 22:25 |
starcannon | Linux uses the GPL, Mono uses that as well at MIT X11 and then its tied in with ECMA/ISO. | Jun 13 22:25 |
DaemonMDV | and they would never have done Portable.Net without the go ahead from their legal department | Jun 13 22:26 |
_Mutex_ | can you lick this ECMA thing you talk about with mono, because I dont see that anywhere | Jun 13 22:26 |
DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecma_International | Jun 13 22:26 |
_Mutex_ | portable.Net will be trivial now, as you have Mono to base it on | Jun 13 22:26 |
DaemonMDV | Ecma International (Ecma) is an international, private (membership-based) non-profit standards organization for information and communication systems.[1] It acquired its name in 1994, when the European Computer Manufacturers Association (ECMA) changed its name to reflect the organization's international reach. As a consequence, the name is no longer considered an acronym and no longer uses full capitalization. | Jun 13 22:26 |
maxstirner | ecma isnt that the marketing company who did all that horrible MSOOXML advertising | Jun 13 22:27 |
DaemonMDV | Javascript is an ECMA standard | Jun 13 22:27 |
mib_5506ka | Yeah, big legal departments everwhere, ticks, lice, intestinal worms everywhere. I get tired of it. | Jun 13 22:27 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing down under the patents area concerning .NET, and ASP | Jun 13 22:27 |
DaemonMDV | ECMA-252 | Jun 13 22:27 |
_Mutex_ | so its a standards orginaztion not a license ok, does not mean anything then | Jun 13 22:27 |
DaemonMDV | yeah it does | Jun 13 22:27 |
mib_5506ka | Maybe Javascript can be used for something good, but mostly they use it to throw disgisting popusps in your face. | Jun 13 22:28 |
DaemonMDV | or else the W3C doesn't matter either | Jun 13 22:28 |
DaemonMDV | and Microsoft's additions to IE are all OK | Jun 13 22:28 |
_Mutex_ | its a list of standards, not a license | Jun 13 22:28 |
DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_Non_Discriminatory_Licensing | Jun 13 22:28 |
DaemonMDV | Reasonable and Non Discriminatory Licensing (RAND) is a term for a type of licensing typically used during standardization processes. The normal case is that when joining the standardization body, companies agree that if they receive any patents on technologies which become essential to the standard then they agree to allow other groups attempting to implement the standard to use those patents and they agree that the charges for | Jun 13 22:28 |
DaemonMDV | patents shall be reasonable. RAND licenses allow a competitive market to develop between multiple companies making products which implement a standard. | Jun 13 22:28 |
_Hicham_ | is DaemonFC patented? | Jun 13 22:29 |
DaemonMDV | that's the part that theoretically covers Mono | Jun 13 22:29 |
_Mutex_ | thats sounds fair ,, but its still not a license, no where near it | Jun 13 22:29 |
starcannon | An interesting, and I'm sure meant to be comforting statement is: http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 13 22:29 |
starcannon | doh wrong copy past sorry | Jun 13 22:30 |
_Mutex_ | so if they are tied to emca and as y ou say, then its a good thing because it ensure patents are not encumbered, vis a vis the GPL. | Jun 13 22:30 |
mib_5506ka | I have a patented coffee cup that can spill hot coffee on your crotch so you can get millions in damages from the café (not from me). | Jun 13 22:30 |
starcannon | This is what I meant to paste, its taken from the link i accidentally pasted: With the new Novell/Microsoft agreement, will the patent policy change? | Jun 13 22:30 |
starcannon | Mono is a community project, and as such, we will continue to implement the policy of not integrating knowingly infringing code into Mono. | Jun 13 22:30 |
starcannon | And we will continue to follow the steps outlined in the previous topic if code that potentially infringes is found: finding prior art, finding different implementation techniques, or if none of those are possible, removing the code from Mono. | Jun 13 22:30 |
_Mutex_ | where is the connection to emca and mono, where are they both talked about in teh same context ? | Jun 13 22:30 |
DaemonMDV | Mono implements the ECMA version of .Net | Jun 13 22:31 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ on that link I posted for you, its down in the Patents area | Jun 13 22:31 |
DaemonMDV | Microsot has their own bits that are non-standard | Jun 13 22:31 |
DaemonMDV | *Microsoft | Jun 13 22:31 |
_Mutex_ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecma_International from this link ? | Jun 13 22:31 |
starcannon | I think when one dances with the Devil, one should be prepared to pay the Piper. | Jun 13 22:31 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ no from this link http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 13 22:32 |
_Mutex_ | IF mono implements the ECMA version, that would indicate that mono isnot patent encumbered, | Jun 13 22:32 |
_Mutex_ | so if its ecma covered its free of patent issues yes ? | Jun 13 22:33 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ That is exactly what they are banking on; however, lawyers have ways of twisting things, and I'm sure there are fine lines everywhere and MS has made no bones about FOSS being a problem that they would like to squash | Jun 13 22:33 |
DaemonMDV | Banshee requires the non-standard bits | Jun 13 22:33 |
DaemonMDV | like Windows Forms | Jun 13 22:33 |
DaemonMDV | regardless of what schestowitz says | Jun 13 22:33 |
DaemonMDV | and I can prove it | Jun 13 22:33 |
mib_5506ka | Has anyone ever checked if MSFT icorporates GPLd software in it's system? | Jun 13 22:33 |
DaemonMDV | http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/5929/screenshothci.png | Jun 13 22:34 |
_Mutex_ | if IF lawyers do have a way of twisting things, that is an issue with the GPL not with MONO, if the GPL is not strong enough then thats ITS problem | Jun 13 22:34 |
fewa | mib_5506ka, it does for its UNIX compat stack | Jun 13 22:34 |
DaemonMDV | removing Windows Forms will remove Banshee | Jun 13 22:34 |
fewa | FSF-copyrighted too | Jun 13 22:34 |
DaemonMDV | and F-Spot | Jun 13 22:34 |
starcannon | I think getting in bed with a mega-corp that has already made it known that it would like to see FOSS die is just a very very bad idea, one that should not even be considered, but I err to the side of caution most times | Jun 13 22:34 |
DaemonMDV | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Forms | Jun 13 22:35 |
starcannon | My asus eee's shipped with xandros, I scrubbed them off immediatly | Jun 13 22:35 |
neighborlee | starcannon, its called common sense | Jun 13 22:35 |
starcannon | neighborlee agreed | Jun 13 22:35 |
neighborlee | but when one is on the oposing side..common sense doesn't work so well ;) | Jun 13 22:36 |
DaemonMDV | so two of the most common Mono apps require proprietary, non-standard, and patent-encumbered bits of Mono | Jun 13 22:36 |
DaemonMDV | Windows Forms | Jun 13 22:36 |
_Mutex_ | the problem with that argument is that by reject mono, you are rejecting teh GPL you are admitting that the GPL is not worth the paper its written on (or pixels). | Jun 13 22:36 |
DaemonMDV | to say they're GPL'd is just insane | Jun 13 22:36 |
_Mutex_ | IS that what you want to do for FOSS ? | Jun 13 22:36 |
_Mutex_ | weaken the very fabric of your existance !!! (just wanted to say that once in my life). :) | Jun 13 22:37 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ I am rejecting that it is truly GPL'd, I am not rejecting the GPL though. I can sell you a car, put a "Guarantee" on it in writing, and if I am not trustworthy and the car blows up, whats the Guarantee worth? | Jun 13 22:38 |
DaemonMDV | Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria! | Jun 13 22:38 |
DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 13 22:38 |
_Mutex_ | So ifyou reject mono, you are rejecting FSF's GPL, so you might as well also reject the Linux Kernel!! | Jun 13 22:38 |
DaemonMDV | so Banshee requires Avalon/Windows Presentation Foundation | Jun 13 22:38 |
DaemonMDV | and so does F-Spot | Jun 13 22:38 |
_Mutex_ | the written guarentee ensure you are liable to pay or refund, thats what a guarentee is | Jun 13 22:39 |
schestowitz | DMOZ DEMIZE... http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/05/do-you-respect-dmoz-after-11-years | Jun 13 22:39 |
_Mutex_ | its your case what is the GPL worth then ? | Jun 13 22:39 |
_Mutex_ | your saying nothing ? | Jun 13 22:39 |
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starcannon | I pick and choose who to trust, I do not trust MS, or Novell, or Xandros, or anyone else who would sign a deal with MS. | Jun 13 22:40 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, why dont you ask novel..err wait I mean Microsoft..err I mean well get the both in conference ;) | Jun 13 22:40 |
_Mutex_ | I remember not so long ago, if someone attacked the GPL to a FOSS group they would be flooded and flamed to death in no time, no days its a sport to kick the GPL to the gutter | Jun 13 22:41 |
DaemonMDV | Xandros is just crap | Jun 13 22:41 |
DaemonMDV | they actually have a "Click here to pay $50 to Microsoft for patent protection" button | Jun 13 22:41 |
DaemonMDV | in their checkout | Jun 13 22:41 |
neighborlee | o_0 | Jun 13 22:41 |
_Mutex_ | with regards to the FSF's GPL, I would prefer to ask the FSF and RMS he after all wrote it, I assume he considers it of some value. | Jun 13 22:41 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.gnu.org/press/2001-07-09-DotGNU-Mono.html | Jun 13 22:42 |
_Mutex_ | even if the FOSS community is now DISSing GPL'd code | Jun 13 22:42 |
DaemonMDV | Stallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use." | Jun 13 22:42 |
DaemonMDV | hehe | Jun 13 22:43 |
_Mutex_ | WELL SAID RMS !!! | Jun 13 22:43 |
DaemonMDV | I'm not making that up | Jun 13 22:43 |
DaemonMDV | read the page | Jun 13 22:43 |
schestowitz | DaemonMDV: yes, banshee grabs winforms in fedora | Jun 13 22:43 |
DaemonMDV | Richard M. Stallman, founder of the GNU project and president of the Free Software Foundation, said: "With Mono and DotGNU, we hope to provide good alternatives to components of .NET, ones that will respect your freedom, and your privacy. You will be able to use the facilities of Mono and DotGNU either with, or without, the Internet, and using servers of your choice." | Jun 13 22:43 |
DaemonMDV | "We are taking the lead in providing an upgraded development platform that enables Unix and GNU/Linux developers to capitalize on the .NET framework. By having the Mono Project reuse the work from the GNU and GNOME project, we can greatly accelerate the development process," said Miguel de Icaza, co-founder and chief technical officer at Ximian. | Jun 13 22:43 |
_Mutex_ | Gee Richard stallman is saying Mono will force you to surrender your freedom (in any way) with mono, interesting, can you like that for me so I can save it ? | Jun 13 22:44 |
starcannon | I don't see anyone dissing GPL'd code, I do see people skeptical whether it is truly GPL'd code though. Just because some one says something does not make it so. I see no reason to start trusting MS or those they are using to infiltrate with. | Jun 13 22:44 |
starcannon | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Documents | Jun 13 22:44 |
DaemonMDV | http://directory.fsf.org/project/mono/ | Jun 13 22:44 |
_Mutex_ | It is truly GPLd code because thats what its licenses under, | Jun 13 22:44 |
DaemonMDV | Mono Project is a free implementation of the various ECMA and .NET framework technologies for Posix, MacOS X, and Windows. The project includes a compiler, a class library, and a CLI runtime engine. | Jun 13 22:44 |
DaemonMDV | Last updated 23 May, 2008 | Jun 13 22:44 |
neighborlee | starcannon, indeed | Jun 13 22:44 |
maxstirner | need GPL3 for patent protection | Jun 13 22:44 |
_Mutex_ | its digital it either IS or it IS NOT, and it is. | Jun 13 22:45 |
schestowitz | <DaemonMDV> they actually have a "Click here to pay $50 to Microsoft for patent protection" button | Jun 13 22:45 |
schestowitz | Proof please | Jun 13 22:45 |
_Mutex_ | In that case reject the Linux Kernel, (there may be patents undescovered in it after all). | Jun 13 22:45 |
starcannon | Heres the ACTUAL mono license page, no need to even argue, it very clearly has an MIT/X11 license as well, and I still do not believe they are using code that they can legally use the GPL on, I believe they are using MS technology, and I believe whether or not its their intention, we will all be burnt. http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing | Jun 13 22:46 |
maxstirner | http://www.mail-archive.com/foundation-list@gnome.org/msg02681.html | Jun 13 22:46 |
maxstirner | "In effect, Microsoft has designed in boobytraps for us." | Jun 13 22:46 |
_Mutex_ | they cant because its GPLd, | Jun 13 22:46 |
_Mutex_ | read the license | Jun 13 22:47 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ I am not required to throw the baby out with the bathwater, that is flawed logic, and I've been conversing with you long enough to know that you know that as well. | Jun 13 22:47 |
_Mutex_ | no one is asking you to throw out anything, or to do anything different, or to do anything you dont want too, or that you dont feel right about, I agree, IF you dont want to trust the GPL thats your choice. | Jun 13 22:48 |
neighborlee | starcannon, we arleady have verification about mono from free software foundation lawyer..what else do we need im not sure...other than common sense which is actively engaged,,,,for most of us :)<check your OS though to verify that> | Jun 13 22:48 |
_Mutex_ | you are free to not use the GPL if you so wish | Jun 13 22:48 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ I will say that I hope your right. Nothing would give me greater satisfaction than for me to turn out to be a paranoid idiot on this argument, if Mono is really and truly able to stand up as GPL code in a court of law, that would be HUGE. Mono is technologically magnificent, no doubt about it. | Jun 13 22:48 |
_Mutex_ | Well I am right, and Mono is GPLd, we allknow that, | Jun 13 22:49 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 13 22:49 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ we don't all know that, indeed there are a great number of use who question it. | Jun 13 22:49 |
_Mutex_ | stallman says its cool, and im sure he knows the GPL a bit better than me (probably) | Jun 13 22:49 |
_Mutex_ | seeing he wrote it and all | Jun 13 22:49 |
_Mutex_ | I just read it | Jun 13 22:49 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: Add Xandros to your cart | Jun 13 22:49 |
DaemonMDV | click checkout | Jun 13 22:49 |
DaemonMDV | proof | Jun 13 22:49 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, people..and opinions change. | Jun 13 22:49 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonMDV : have u tried openSUSE? | Jun 13 22:50 |
_Mutex_ | Yes, and a proprietary Unix, can become a GPLd linux too, | Jun 13 22:50 |
_Mutex_ | things can change for the better I agree | Jun 13 22:50 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz | Jun 13 22:50 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.xandros.com/products/ip_assurance_na.html | Jun 13 22:50 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.xandros.com/products/ip_assurance_yes.html | Jun 13 22:50 |
DaemonMDV | $99 without Microsoft Patent Assurance | Jun 13 22:51 |
DaemonMDV | $149.99 with | Jun 13 22:51 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, its not going to work..give up..divide and conqueror..hardly..land of freee and brave is alive and well, whether you think so or not | Jun 13 22:51 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.xandros.com/products/ip_assurance_no.html | Jun 13 22:51 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ ultimately each person can voice their opinion. I know that the siren call of Mono will be to great to resist, promises of all kinds of MS compatibility is to great for most people to pass on, we'll all know for sure when/if a lawsuit happens. | Jun 13 22:51 |
DaemonMDV | Intellectual Property Assurance | Jun 13 22:51 |
DaemonMDV | Now you have the option to acquire Xandros Desktop offerings together with Microsoft patent assurance. This assurance enables you to use Xandros Desktop software with confidence. This program is available for $50. Learn more by reading Microsoft's covenant. | Jun 13 22:51 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 13 22:51 |
schestowitz | Shillnalysts got annoyed at me... | Jun 13 22:52 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.microsoft.com/interop/collab/xandros/customer_covenant.mspx | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | UBing v Google | Jun 13 22:52 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft, on behalf of itself and its Subsidiaries, hereby covenants not to sue a Customer of Xandros for infringement under Microsoft’s Covered Patents on account of such Customer’s use of specific copies of Covered Products as distributed by Xandros during the Term. For the avoidance of doubt, bug fixes and minor updates to a specific copy is considered the same copy and remains covered by the above covenant provided such | Jun 13 22:52 |
DaemonMDV | and minor updates do not add substantial new functionality; an upgrade (or a new version) of a specific copy is treated as two different copies. | Jun 13 22:52 |
_Mutex_ | divide and conquer ? im not the one who is degrading the GPL, and dividing one distro against another, its not MS against FOSS its FOSS attacking FOSS and teh GPL, its quite odd. | Jun 13 22:52 |
_Mutex_ | anddisturbing | Jun 13 22:52 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, good..give them something to talk about :)) | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | User Centric was neither requested by, paid by, or contacted by Microsoft for the eye tracking research of bing v google. The research was done independently to feature User Centric’s eye tracking services. Full stop. And if you had access to our corporate financial records -- which you don’t -- you would discovered that Microsoft is not a major customer by any means of analysis. | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | Jun 13 22:52 | |
schestowitz | User Centric demonstrates its service capabilities by testing the customer experiences with high-profile companies and then publishes the results: see our papers on Google Health v Microsoft HealthVault and the iPhone, for example. | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | Jun 13 22:52 | |
schestowitz | Robert M. Schumacher, Ph.D. | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | Managing Director | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | User Centric, Inc. | Jun 13 22:52 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, just exactly who are you anyway | Jun 13 22:52 |
DaemonMDV | _Hicham_: OpenSuse is way bloated | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | Haha. | Jun 13 22:52 |
DaemonMDV | that's the main reason I won't use it | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | So no... | Jun 13 22:52 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ name ONE SINGLE person in here who has degraded the GPL, indeed sir, give me a quote of such. | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | Microsoft didn't pay them | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | They were a non-paying customer | Jun 13 22:52 |
schestowitz | They were just there 'for good measure' | Jun 13 22:53 |
schestowitz | Matter of fact is, money passed hands | Jun 13 22:53 |
DaemonMDV | The OpenSuse modifications to GNOME make it confusing and unwieldy | Jun 13 22:53 |
DaemonMDV | and Yast2 is SLOW | Jun 13 22:53 |
_Hicham_ | what modifications? | Jun 13 22:53 |
DaemonMDV | they have a "Start Menu" | Jun 13 22:53 |
_Hicham_ | start menu? | Jun 13 22:53 |
DaemonMDV | and a "Applications Menu" that's a huge window | Jun 13 22:54 |
_Mutex_ | who am i ?? im the balanced voice of reason :) | Jun 13 22:54 |
DaemonMDV | with like every app on the system in it | Jun 13 22:54 |
_Mutex_ | the one "keeping it real" LOL | Jun 13 22:54 |
DaemonMDV | it disappears when you select one | Jun 13 22:54 |
_Mutex_ | unofficial BN troll (in training ). | Jun 13 22:54 |
DaemonMDV | Suse just reeks of piss poor user interface design | Jun 13 22:54 |
_Hicham_ | does it have KMS? | Jun 13 22:54 |
DaemonMDV | it's very unintuitive | Jun 13 22:55 |
DaemonMDV | no | Jun 13 22:55 |
DaemonMDV | it's still using Linux 2.6.27 | Jun 13 22:55 |
_Hicham_ | wow | Jun 13 22:55 |
_Hicham_ | way old | Jun 13 22:55 |
starcannon | blush so am I | Jun 13 22:55 |
_Mutex_ | who has degraded the GPL, anyone who degraded any GPLd code is who,, | Jun 13 22:55 |
starcannon | 27-14 to be exact | Jun 13 22:55 |
DaemonMDV | OpenSuse just really isn't all that great even if you don't care about patents or whatnot at all | Jun 13 22:55 |
DaemonMDV | it's bloated, stale, and the user itnerface sucks | Jun 13 22:56 |
_Hicham_ | it was the first to support delta rpms i think | Jun 13 22:56 |
DaemonMDV | yeah | Jun 13 22:56 |
DaemonMDV | not really all that helpful | Jun 13 22:56 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, Jo sheilds wannabe ? | Jun 13 22:56 |
_Hicham_ | agree | Jun 13 22:56 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV is it possible to have a one size fits all OS without it being slightly stale, and a bit bloated though? | Jun 13 22:56 |
DaemonMDV | it takes so long for the system to apply the patches, you might as well just download the whole package | Jun 13 22:57 |
_Mutex_ | who's jo sheilds ?? | Jun 13 22:57 |
DaemonMDV | starcannon: They made a number of decisions that I'd guess are just wrong for any usage case | Jun 13 22:57 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 13 22:57 |
_Hicham_ | and it is not up-to-date | Jun 13 22:57 |
_Hicham_ | I hate old distros | Jun 13 22:58 |
starcannon | DaemonMDV all patent/license issues aside, it seems all the major desktop distro's get a bit stale and bloated no? | Jun 13 22:58 |
DaemonMDV | starcannon, no | Jun 13 22:58 |
_Mutex_ | or why do I can, I was just re-reading RMS quote on it, so I might be a Stallman wannabe | Jun 13 22:58 |
starcannon | I'm using the wrong ones then | Jun 13 22:58 |
DaemonMDV | if you look at Ubuntu, Fedora, and Mandriva, they're usually not more than a few months behind upstream | Jun 13 22:58 |
DaemonMDV | if you go with Suse, you can be significantly further behind and get heavily patched versions of everything | Jun 13 22:58 |
starcannon | I'm on Ubuntu 8.10 right now with all the patches and $ uname -r | Jun 13 22:59 |
starcannon | 2.6.27-14-generic | Jun 13 22:59 |
DaemonMDV | Fedora is 99% upstream | Jun 13 22:59 |
DaemonMDV | they have some of their own patches, but they do good work and most of it becomes upstream | Jun 13 22:59 |
DaemonMDV | so it's not shockingly different | Jun 13 22:59 |
starcannon | And as much as I do enjoy Ubuntu, I can not say its not a wee bloated. | Jun 13 22:59 |
_Hicham_ | ubuntu patches are the most problematic | Jun 13 23:00 |
_Hicham_ | they cause more damage than benefit | Jun 13 23:00 |
DaemonMDV | to a certain extent, operating systems are not big because they're full of useless crap that nobody wants | Jun 13 23:00 |
DaemonMDV | they're big because your needs are big | Jun 13 23:00 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 13 23:00 |
_Mutex_ | Richard M. Stallman, founder of the GNU project and president of the Free Software Foundation, said: "With Mono and DotGNU, we hope to provide good alternatives to components of .NET, ones that will respect your freedom, and your privacy. You will be able to use the facilities of Mono and DotGNU either with, or without, the Internet, and using servers of your choice." | Jun 13 23:00 |
starcannon | I just assumed that it was the nature of the beast | Jun 13 23:00 |
*DaemonMDV stole that from Jamie Zawinski talking about Mozilla | Jun 13 23:00 | |
_Mutex_ | Even stallmans blessings is not enough ,,, hmmm problem ? | Jun 13 23:01 |
DaemonMDV | if you want to suffer and decide what you need piece by piece ,you can use Arch or Gentoo or something | Jun 13 23:01 |
_Hicham_ | GnewSense contains Mono | Jun 13 23:01 |
DaemonMDV | but most users would prefer something that just installs a default setup | Jun 13 23:01 |
_Mutex_ | where he say, "if YOU can compile mozilla, ANYONE can" (nice complement LOL) but good doco | Jun 13 23:02 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ I don't personally consult Stallman for anything, and even if I did, I do not assume that any man is infallible. | Jun 13 23:02 |
_Hicham_ | mozilla is a beast in compilation | Jun 13 23:02 |
_Hicham_ | I will never compile mozilla again | Jun 13 23:02 |
neighborlee | starcannon, bingo | Jun 13 23:02 |
_Mutex_ | anyone but stallman that is, he's the FOSS god I thought the spiritual leader of the movement, | Jun 13 23:03 |
_Mutex_ | that was a Jamie zawinski quote from that doco. | Jun 13 23:03 |
schestowitz | FSDaily is under troll attack: http://www.fsdaily.com/users/komrad/submitted | Jun 13 23:03 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ he is brilliant, and I am sure engaging to talk to, but he is not on my alter | Jun 13 23:03 |
schestowitz | Mass-burying | Jun 13 23:03 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, hehe im not surprised ;0-0 | Jun 13 23:03 |
schestowitz | It's the linxx.xx trolls | Jun 13 23:03 |
_Mutex_ | hes on some thought, im sure he's very smart, (he's SAT say so) but i feel he could of achieved alot more with his brain than being an activist. | Jun 13 23:04 |
_Mutex_ | and Jamie Zawinski runs a night club now | Jun 13 23:05 |
starcannon | _Mutex_ thats the beauty of free-will, one can choose how to spend ones life; some asshats even choose to be members of linsux.org | Jun 13 23:05 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: I told you it brings winforms | Jun 13 23:06 |
DaemonMDV | you called bullshit on me | Jun 13 23:06 |
_Mutex_ | yes, thats true, but I dont think there will be many big brains on linsux, (cos im not there, or you :)) | Jun 13 23:06 |
_Mutex_ | will NOT be many big brains (sorry) | Jun 13 23:06 |
_Mutex_ | unfortunate typ0 | Jun 13 23:06 |
starcannon | lol my DARPA speedbump filled in the appropriate information :) | Jun 13 23:07 |
_Mutex_ | LOL yes,,, I often feel exactly the same, just a speed bump in life, | Jun 13 23:07 |
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starcannon | Well, it was invigorating, but I'm off to play a bit of Eve Online no :) see ya all later | Jun 13 23:17 |
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schestowitz | DaemonMDV: seen the post about benshee? | Jun 13 23:20 |
DaemonMDV | Me on an MS MVP's website where he blogs about fake antivirus that turns off real antivirus | Jun 13 23:20 |
DaemonMDV | "That’s actually pretty damned funny that even with Windows Defender, an antivirus program, a firewall, and whatever else you may be using, Windows is so inherently insecure that a virus can walk right in, set up shop, and switch all of that stuff off. | Jun 13 23:20 |
DaemonMDV | What are you paying for security software for? | Jun 13 23:20 |
DaemonMDV | This is like hiring 6 heavily armed bodyguards who fail to stop a guy running towards you screaming “I’m going to blow you up” at the top of his lungs. | Jun 13 23:20 |
schestowitz | It's complicated: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/mono-and-moonlight-winforms/ | Jun 13 23:20 |
DaemonMDV | yeah, saw it | Jun 13 23:20 |
schestowitz | I'll write about Xandros tomorrow | Jun 13 23:21 |
schestowitz | Good find, just try to keep the MS marketing you do here down | Jun 13 23:21 |
schestowitz | It serves no purpose | Jun 13 23:21 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: The Xandros thing has been going on for a while now | Jun 13 23:21 |
_Hicham_ | Daemon{%dist} | Jun 13 23:21 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 13 23:21 |
DaemonMDV | $50 to get protection from MS | Jun 13 23:21 |
schestowitz | But the cost I didn't know about | Jun 13 23:21 |
_Hicham_ | that should be ur nick | Jun 13 23:21 |
_Hicham_ | so that u can be polymorphic | Jun 13 23:22 |
DaemonMDV | the way they have it sounding "We're selling you something Microsoft owns, and if you don't buy their permission to use it, we've got your name" | Jun 13 23:22 |
_Mutex_ | and yes windows has the same security leval rating as SOME versions of Linux, (not all linux is at that lever, many are below). | Jun 13 23:24 |
_Mutex_ | and yet* | Jun 13 23:24 |
DaemonMDV | Linspire was the only one I've seen run as root by default | Jun 13 23:24 |
DaemonMDV | Xandros has always tried to sell itself as a Windows XP Professional clone | Jun 13 23:25 |
DaemonMDV | right down to the color motif | Jun 13 23:25 |
DaemonMDV | older version with Windows Whistler watercolor theme | Jun 13 23:28 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.osnews.com/img/5910/xandros3.png | Jun 13 23:28 |
DaemonMDV | Xandros 4 | Jun 13 23:28 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.desktoplinux.com/files/article105/xandros-4.jpg | Jun 13 23:29 |
DaemonMDV | 4.1 | Jun 13 23:29 |
DaemonMDV | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Xandros41OCE.png | Jun 13 23:29 |
DaemonMDV | XP knockoff | Jun 13 23:29 |
DaemonMDV | they even have Caldera Linux's old file manager | Jun 13 23:30 |
DaemonMDV | Caldera=SCO | Jun 13 23:30 |
schestowitz | Pardus does this too | Jun 13 23:36 |
schestowitz | http://ikibiki.org//blog/2009/06/13/Don_Roberto_de_la_Millancha/ "I thought I’d never have anything to say about Mono, Novell, etc., but some blog posts reminded me of an old story. Thankfully, I have a talented minion:" :-) | Jun 13 23:37 |
maxstirner | cant see the minion | Jun 13 23:38 |
schestowitz | It's a Debian flamefest | Jun 13 23:42 |
schestowitz | He's defending the Mono critics | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | nice | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | i jsut cant see any minions after the colon | Jun 13 23:42 |
schestowitz | Expect to hear a lot about it in coming daysT | Jun 13 23:42 |
schestowitz | There might be a poll. | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | should be fine | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | fun | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | ;) | Jun 13 23:42 |
schestowitz | Both | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | cant really see the debians having it | Jun 13 23:42 |
maxstirner | didnt they abolish the ffox logo? | Jun 13 23:43 |
maxstirner | with that degree of puritan attitude.. | Jun 13 23:43 |
schestowitz | Yes, it had a purpose | Jun 13 23:44 |
maxstirner | i am not saying it didn't | Jun 13 23:44 |
schestowitz | They should make MonkeyWeasel | Jun 13 23:45 |
schestowitz | Modify Mono | Jun 13 23:45 |
schestowitz | To fragment .NET | Jun 13 23:45 |
schestowitz | And ruin it that way | Jun 13 23:45 |
maxstirner | i think its fine having winelike programmes | Jun 13 23:45 |
maxstirner | just dont default them | Jun 13 23:46 |
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_Mutex_ | just rewrite it so its under the GPL, (oh wait) well just re-write it anyway, linus did it with UNIX problem solved | Jun 13 23:49 |
schestowitz | _Mutex_: enough with the GPL scolding | Jun 13 23:50 |
neighborlee | its all he has | Jun 13 23:50 |
schestowitz | Try #killkillkillgpl | Jun 13 23:51 |
_Mutex_ | im for the GPL, its not me trying to defeat it | Jun 13 23:51 |
schestowitz | Maybe you'll find some Softies in there,even steveb | Jun 13 23:51 |
schestowitz | GPL is a scientific philosophy | Jun 13 23:51 |
schestowitz | Share and share alike | Jun 13 23:51 |
_Mutex_ | its actually a license | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | It applies to other areas | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | And "open source" relates to it, but is defined differently | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | _Mutex_: it's an artistic licence | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | Reversing common ones. with copyleft | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | And starting numbers at 0 | Jun 13 23:52 |
_Mutex_ | mabey but an artistic license is still a license | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | Some of it is rebellious in the same that it antagonises bad conventions | Jun 13 23:52 |
schestowitz | Licence is an agreement | Jun 13 23:53 |
schestowitz | Like shaking hands | Jun 13 23:53 |
schestowitz | Or saying "I bet on my momma's life" | Jun 13 23:53 |
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schestowitz | But juridical systems honour certain bits of paper | Jun 13 23:53 |
_Mutex_ | a legally binding hardshake, more like a signiture | Jun 13 23:53 |
schestowitz | All stupid bureaucracy | Jun 13 23:53 |
_Mutex_ | or a contract, | Jun 13 23:53 |
schestowitz | What maxstirner called meta-industry | Jun 13 23:53 |
_Mutex_ | yes, and thats the world we life in, paperwork and bureaucracy | Jun 13 23:54 |
_Mutex_ | otherwise, everything would be public domain, and there would be NO GPL. | Jun 13 23:54 |
schestowitz | No. | Jun 13 23:55 |
schestowitz | I'd talk about it tomorrow if you like | Jun 13 23:55 |
_Mutex_ | if there was no bureaucracy yes | Jun 13 23:55 |
schestowitz | Let me just finish the opensuse posts | Jun 13 23:55 |
_Mutex_ | no bureaucracy mean no one to enforce the law, or licenses, or contractrs and so on. thats that "the system" is. | Jun 13 23:56 |
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