Daemonbuntu | looks like the auto-mode will just cause Ubuntu to fail to mount it | Jun 16 00:00 |
---|---|---|
_Hicham_ | Daemonbuntu returns to his old love | Jun 16 00:00 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: do you reckon they'll go Rambo on Iran next? | Jun 16 00:00 |
Daemonbuntu | but if you keep trying | Jun 16 00:00 |
schestowitz | You know, to 'move the economy'? | Jun 16 00:00 |
Daemonbuntu | it will either eventually mount as an MTP or PTP device | Jun 16 00:00 |
ThistleWeb | when you look at the stupidity of some people around the world, you have to wonder if it's proof that someone somewhere pissed in the gene pool | Jun 16 00:00 |
Daemonbuntu | the problem is that when in one mode, you can't see files you wrote in the other mode | Jun 16 00:00 |
schestowitz | Given some pretext like mass destruction of weaspons? | Jun 16 00:00 |
balzac | I'd say "you know, it's not your fault. there was lots of radiation fallout which landed on kansas. we accept you as a bunch of mutants." | Jun 16 00:00 |
Daemonbuntu | and you have no way of telling which one Linux will pick | Jun 16 00:00 |
balzac | jk | Jun 16 00:00 |
balzac | Obama's not going off on Iraqn | Jun 16 00:01 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: issue is, it's beaten | Jun 16 00:01 |
balzac | Iran | Jun 16 00:01 |
schestowitz | Laws of nature don't apply anymore | Jun 16 00:01 |
schestowitz | Smart people use contraception | Jun 16 00:01 |
_Hicham_ | balzac : he just can't | Jun 16 00:01 |
ThistleWeb | schestowitz: I doubt it, despite the saber rattling, despite the wet dreams of the hawks, the ecconomy can't take a third war | Jun 16 00:01 |
schestowitz | Minds are more complex in general | Jun 16 00:01 |
_Hicham_ | no one can go off on Iran | Jun 16 00:01 |
balzac | Roy, Obama even warned Bejamin Netinyahu not to attack Iran. It wasn't because he was hoping to do it first. | Jun 16 00:01 |
schestowitz | Films, music, etc. | Jun 16 00:01 |
_Hicham_ | Benjamin Netinyahu can't attack Iran either | Jun 16 00:02 |
schestowitz | Netinyahu is ma criminal | Jun 16 00:02 |
_Hicham_ | he is a big coward | Jun 16 00:02 |
ThistleWeb | attacking a third muslim country would be a dream propaganda present to the headcases in groups like Al Queda | Jun 16 00:02 |
schestowitz | It's a shame that such people are even elected | Jun 16 00:02 |
_Hicham_ | he attacks civil people | Jun 16 00:02 |
schestowitz | He wasn't even elected | Jun 16 00:02 |
schestowitz | Just shows you what a farce the Israeli election is. | Jun 16 00:02 |
schestowitz | Like some third-world country | Jun 16 00:02 |
ThistleWeb | 1st to root out those behind 911, 2nd based on lies | Jun 16 00:03 |
_Hicham_ | what coutry will they attack after Iran? | Jun 16 00:03 |
schestowitz | Replacing the elected person with some criminal (past with bribes and stuff) | Jun 16 00:03 |
balzac | schestowitz: I heard Livni was pretty hardcore herself | Jun 16 00:03 |
schestowitz | I don't know | Jun 16 00:03 |
schestowitz | I only saw a photo of her like 2 months ago | Jun 16 00:04 |
balzac | would you shtup her? | Jun 16 00:04 |
balzac | did I spell that correctly? | Jun 16 00:04 |
schestowitz | ? | Jun 16 00:05 |
schestowitz | I don't remember what she looks like | Jun 16 00:05 |
balzac | it's yiddish, i think | Jun 16 00:05 |
ThistleWeb | I'd rather aim for peace than war, looking at who will attack who is saying there's no point in talking to find peace | Jun 16 00:05 |
schestowitz | It would be nice if Hillary was elected | Jun 16 00:05 |
schestowitz | Another blunder coming | Jun 16 00:05 |
balzac | that's always the first question on my mind regarding female politicians | Jun 16 00:05 |
schestowitz | You'd catch her in the oval room seeking revenge | Jun 16 00:05 |
ThistleWeb | peace works better for everyone except those in the war industry who profit from killing and destruction | Jun 16 00:05 |
balzac | ukraine has an attractive lady... | Jun 16 00:05 |
balzac | in office | Jun 16 00:06 |
_Hicham_ | who is this lady balzac ? a stripper? | Jun 16 00:06 |
schestowitz | Women aare more pacifists | Jun 16 00:06 |
schestowitz | It's better to let some lead | Jun 16 00:06 |
balzac | i agree | Jun 16 00:06 |
schestowitz | Less testestorone | Jun 16 00:06 |
ThistleWeb | schestowitz: yep | Jun 16 00:06 |
balzac | well, i don't necessarily agree there | Jun 16 00:06 |
schestowitz | Iceland has just voted to elect a lesbian woman | Jun 16 00:06 |
schestowitz | She runs the country | Jun 16 00:06 |
balzac | most other men's testosterone is bad, but mine is pure gold | Jun 16 00:07 |
ThistleWeb | although, for women to get into the top jobs, they often have to adopt male charactiaristics | Jun 16 00:07 |
_Hicham_ | Iceland with a lesbian woman? | Jun 16 00:07 |
schestowitz | It's not that | Jun 16 00:07 |
_Hicham_ | normal | Jun 16 00:07 |
_Hicham_ | no one can get aroused in there | Jun 16 00:07 |
schestowitz | Well, women are maybe emotional | Jun 16 00:07 |
ThistleWeb | hence Thatcher had more balls than her entire male cabinet | Jun 16 00:07 |
schestowitz | Or emeptionally-feeble if that's something that can be confirmed | Jun 16 00:07 |
_Hicham_ | Thatcher is a male | Jun 16 00:08 |
balzac | if you turn your aggression towards the most appropriate target, magically testosterone becomes good instead of evil | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | Like, in a business, they would not always work 15 hours a day to save the business | Jun 16 00:08 |
_Hicham_ | probably she gotta a secret dick | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | They have families and other priorities | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | But they don't think with their prick | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | And that's good | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | Men are perhaps more competitive | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | And it's not a good thing for diplomacy | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | maybe competition, commerce | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | Fight of the minds. | Jun 16 00:08 |
schestowitz | Not the shells | Jun 16 00:08 |
balzac | well it can be | Jun 16 00:08 |
ThistleWeb | so much of politics is wasted on useless ego trips | Jun 16 00:09 |
balzac | you just have to crush your rivals | Jun 16 00:09 |
ThistleWeb | having to bow down, say things the other person finds flattering | Jun 16 00:09 |
balzac | how are ego trips useless? | Jun 16 00:09 |
schestowitz | Think about a lady president from Tehran speaking to Hillary | Jun 16 00:09 |
_Hicham_ | women are more efficient in Politics | Jun 16 00:09 |
balzac | what about Freud and Jung? | Jun 16 00:09 |
ThistleWeb | they inflate the issue to a personal level | Jun 16 00:09 |
_Hicham_ | they can achieve things easily | Jun 16 00:09 |
balzac | hillary has too much testosterone, apparently | Jun 16 00:09 |
schestowitz | More foreseeable than errrr.... Saddam and Runsfeld | Jun 16 00:10 |
schestowitz | Oh wait.. | Jun 16 00:10 |
schestowitz | *Rum | Jun 16 00:10 |
balzac | we need more feminine women in politics | Jun 16 00:10 |
_Hicham_ | balzac : yes, strippers in the white house | Jun 16 00:10 |
schestowitz | balzac: yes, Hillary is a dude at heart | Jun 16 00:10 |
balzac | once they're angry and bitter towards men, they may actually be worse than men | Jun 16 00:10 |
ThistleWeb | for me, the key is more balance, all women or all men is a bad idea | Jun 16 00:10 |
schestowitz | Maybe they feed em stuff in the Sanate | Jun 16 00:11 |
balzac | yeah, 50% women would be good | Jun 16 00:11 |
schestowitz | *Senate | Jun 16 00:11 |
ThistleWeb | we need more of a blend which represents the society that elected it | Jun 16 00:11 |
schestowitz | Animal farm... | Jun 16 00:11 |
schestowitz | Let the pigs reign | Jun 16 00:11 |
balzac | throw the dumbest male politicians out the windows and down the steps of the capitol | Jun 16 00:11 |
ThistleWeb | they tried that at the G20 | Jun 16 00:11 |
balzac | john boenher | Jun 16 00:11 |
ThistleWeb | it got them onto the front pages with accusations of brutality | Jun 16 00:12 |
balzac | lots of the republicans - toss em right out the window | Jun 16 00:12 |
balzac | I'd like to run a company staffed entirely by women | Jun 16 00:13 |
ThistleWeb | I wonder how much the age thing plays in politics | Jun 16 00:14 |
balzac | NYSE listed | Jun 16 00:14 |
balzac | drug use: mandatory | Jun 16 00:14 |
ThistleWeb | most politicians are passed regular retirement age | Jun 16 00:14 |
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balzac | mini-skirts: mandatory | Jun 16 00:14 |
ThistleWeb | as douglas adams says, anything which was in the world already when you're under 16 is new and exciting | Jun 16 00:14 |
balzac | I'd be like chairman mao | Jun 16 00:15 |
balzac | jk | Jun 16 00:15 |
ThistleWeb | andything which comes into the world when you're 16-35 you can make a career of | Jun 16 00:15 |
ThistleWeb | anything new when you're over 35 is against the natural order of things | Jun 16 00:15 |
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balzac | more old people in positions of power need to be checked for senility | Jun 16 00:16 |
ThistleWeb | how many politicians are under 35? | Jun 16 00:16 |
balzac | not nearly enough | Jun 16 00:16 |
ThistleWeb | everything in the modern world is scary to them | Jun 16 00:16 |
balzac | old people are way over-represented | Jun 16 00:16 |
balzac | i respect my elders, but there are too many deranged, senile politicians crapping on the world. | Jun 16 00:17 |
balzac | far too many. | Jun 16 00:17 |
ThistleWeb | they are indoctintated into a world where loyalty, ability to deceive and adherence to the old ways is the path to career advancement | Jun 16 00:17 |
ThistleWeb | when they start to think about reform, they get a visit | Jun 16 00:18 |
ThistleWeb | if they continue their ways of erring, they can kiss any promotion goodbye | Jun 16 00:18 |
balzac | well, if young people wouldn't have such a terrible aversion to traditions, maybe there'd be more of us in the 'establishment'. | Jun 16 00:18 |
balzac | i guess i'm still relatively young: 33 | Jun 16 00:19 |
ThistleWeb | it is bizarre that the sole criteria for running a department is your loyalty to the boss | Jun 16 00:19 |
ThistleWeb | not whether or not you can do the job | Jun 16 00:19 |
ThistleWeb | where the boss has all his loyal people in key positions, and when scandal has finally taken him down, a new boss is chosen who comes in and everyone loyal to the old boss is replaced | Jun 16 00:20 |
ThistleWeb | sounds a lot like the old soveit system huh> | Jun 16 00:20 |
ThistleWeb | every minister on the take | Jun 16 00:21 |
schestowitz | Ubuntu Sucks Like a Shopvac and Other Linux Rants < http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/ubuntusuck.shtml > | Jun 16 00:21 |
ThistleWeb | all doing favours for wealthy business people | Jun 16 00:21 |
ThistleWeb | isn't a vac supposed to suck? | Jun 16 00:21 |
ThistleWeb | if I bought one and it didn't I'd take it back | Jun 16 00:22 |
balzac | What are they comparing it to? Linux is hard to install, in comparison to installing a new dish towel hook with sticky back? | Jun 16 00:22 |
schestowitz | Wikipedia begins content licence migration < http://www.h-online.com/open/Wikipedia-begins-content-licence-migration--/news/113527 > Bye, GNU? | Jun 16 00:23 |
schestowitz | :-) | Jun 16 00:23 |
schestowitz | :0( | Jun 16 00:23 |
schestowitz | Unleash the gnu-police on em, with phasers set on "freedom" ;-) | Jun 16 00:24 |
Balrog | schestowitz: ...?!?! What's wrong with CC license? | Jun 16 00:24 |
schestowitz | Nothing | Jun 16 00:24 |
schestowitz | I'm sort of kidding | Jun 16 00:24 |
balzac | GNU released, specifically modifying the GNU FDL to be compatible so content could be re-licensed under CC | Jun 16 00:24 |
schestowitz | the GNU brand | Jun 16 00:25 |
ThistleWeb | wikipedia have been planning the licence move for ages, they had to make sure they had it well enough advertised for past contributers to know | Jun 16 00:25 |
balzac | The GNU brand is stronger than ever | Jun 16 00:25 |
schestowitz | Put a GNU label on a phone and suddenly it's a hit :-) | Jun 16 00:25 |
schestowitz | Like all those gnu fabois | Jun 16 00:25 |
balzac | The hoary head of the GNU is rising like the sun in the east! | Jun 16 00:25 |
schestowitz | Buying gadgets just because it has some logo | Jun 16 00:25 |
schestowitz | [An animal, not a fruit] | Jun 16 00:25 |
ThistleWeb | Apple is a fine example | Jun 16 00:26 |
ThistleWeb | stick an Apple logo on anything and it will sell | Jun 16 00:26 |
schestowitz | MinceR posted this one here: http://aoi.morecp.net/img/0JDMYOrlARs5A0ZL.gif | Jun 16 00:26 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: I don't think so ... there have been Apple products that didn't sell | Jun 16 00:26 |
schestowitz | [animated] nsfw] | Jun 16 00:26 |
ThistleWeb | Balrog: not so much now | Jun 16 00:26 |
ThistleWeb | maybe ages ago | Jun 16 00:26 |
ThistleWeb | they pretty much have a midas touch right now | Jun 16 00:27 |
ThistleWeb | slick PR | Jun 16 00:27 |
Balrog | no, it's more like they're products don't suck like the vast majority of competing products do | Jun 16 00:27 |
balzac | hipsters love apple | Jun 16 00:27 |
Balrog | PR alone won't get [a company] anywhere | Jun 16 00:27 |
balzac | hackers are not so easily excited by shiny plastic | Jun 16 00:28 |
Balrog | then why do they hack the iPhone? | Jun 16 00:28 |
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Balrog | why do several members of the wii hacking group use Apple products? | Jun 16 00:28 |
balzac | for the hipster poontang | Jun 16 00:28 |
Balrog | I doubt it | Jun 16 00:28 |
balzac | hipster poontang | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | then what /should/ they use? Windows? | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | you'll say Linux, right? | Jun 16 00:29 |
balzac | GNU/Linux | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | they use that too | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | most use multiple systems | Jun 16 00:29 |
balzac | who? | Jun 16 00:29 |
ThistleWeb | Apple sell the package, the membership of a perceived elite club | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | the hackers | Jun 16 00:29 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: Apple sells a computer that can run any x86 OS | Jun 16 00:30 |
balzac | you're talking to a very fat man with a long beard and ponytail | Jun 16 00:30 |
ThistleWeb | they sell the lifestyle that "you'll be trendy, and get more attention if you buy our products" | Jun 16 00:30 |
balzac | jk | Jun 16 00:30 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: that's not the Apple product users that I know | Jun 16 00:30 |
balzac | fedora installed | Jun 16 00:31 |
ThistleWeb | they have cultivated the "best in class" label, which is matched by a premium price for their products | Jun 16 00:31 |
balzac | slackware downloading | Jun 16 00:32 |
balzac | i won't use an ipod or an iphone | Jun 16 00:32 |
Balrog | balzac: because of price or lockdown? | Jun 16 00:32 |
balzac | they're too hipster for me | Jun 16 00:32 |
balzac | t-mobile g-1 | Jun 16 00:32 |
Balrog | if it's lockdown, you shouldn't use a pre or android based phone either | Jun 16 00:33 |
Balrog | that's locked down as much | Jun 16 00:33 |
Balrog | (no root == locked down to me) | Jun 16 00:33 |
balzac | you can break it and put debian on it | Jun 16 00:33 |
Balrog | you can break the iphone and mess around with it too | Jun 16 00:33 |
balzac | yeah, but i want a keyboard | Jun 16 00:33 |
ThistleWeb | I won't touch Apple products myself as I don't appreciate the digital strait jacket they all come with | Jun 16 00:33 |
Balrog | Apple updated java | Jun 16 00:33 |
balzac | not a shiny bar of soap | Jun 16 00:34 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: you mean the DRM? | Jun 16 00:34 |
Balrog | if /that/ is what you don't want, just don't buy from the itunes store | Jun 16 00:34 |
ThistleWeb | but for those who like Apple's work flow and are happy using Apple's solutions, their stuff apparently works great | Jun 16 00:34 |
Balrog | Unlike Window Media Player, iTunes doesn't put DRM on unprotected content | Jun 16 00:34 |
ThistleWeb | DRM is more than in just the tunes | Jun 16 00:34 |
ThistleWeb | when the player forces me to use iTunes | Jun 16 00:35 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: when is that? | Jun 16 00:35 |
ThistleWeb | as a program to interface with the device | Jun 16 00:35 |
Balrog | with the iphone and ipod touch that can be fixed | Jun 16 00:35 |
ThistleWeb | when other apps sometimes work, until Apple update and block them again | Jun 16 00:35 |
ThistleWeb | yes, it's called rokbox | Jun 16 00:35 |
balzac | apple ought to make a gnu phone, all polished steel and glass, with a cover which slides open. | Jun 16 00:36 |
balzac | alcohol fuel cell powered | Jun 16 00:36 |
balzac | looks like a whiskey flask and you can drink the fuel | Jun 16 00:36 |
Balrog | RokuBox on older devices | Jun 16 00:37 |
Balrog | Apple doesn't mess with the firmware on outdated devices anymore | Jun 16 00:37 |
balzac | with a keyboard and scrolling ball | Jun 16 00:37 |
Balrog | I hate scrolling balls | Jun 16 00:37 |
Balrog | on phones, at least | Jun 16 00:37 |
balzac | what then? | Jun 16 00:38 |
Balrog | -??? | Jun 16 00:38 |
balzac | instead of a scrolling ball? | Jun 16 00:38 |
Balrog | a touchscreen, and properly implemented scrolling and zooming | Jun 16 00:39 |
ThistleWeb | even with different firmware I'd be embarassed to be seen with an iPod, it screams of "go with the crowd" | Jun 16 00:39 |
balzac | i'd prefer a scrolling ball or wheel | Jun 16 00:39 |
balzac | but steel | Jun 16 00:39 |
balzac | or maybe frosted ceramic so it can be backlit | Jun 16 00:40 |
balzac | touchscreen too | Jun 16 00:42 |
Balrog | too much bulk | Jun 16 00:42 |
balzac | not on my machine | Jun 16 00:43 |
balzac | i'd have watch-makers from switzerland help machine the components | Jun 16 00:43 |
balzac | and nano-tech experts | Jun 16 00:43 |
Balrog | hmm, apple has people who do stuff like that | Jun 16 00:44 |
Balrog | it's not "all about marketing" | Jun 16 00:44 |
balzac | hell, i could give it a pair of wings and make it fly | Jun 16 00:44 |
balzac | inspecter gadget | Jun 16 00:44 |
balzac | yeah, but this would be called the GNU phone | Jun 16 00:45 |
balzac | not the iphone | Jun 16 00:45 |
Balrog | balzac: you probably want an openmoko phone | Jun 16 00:46 |
balzac | too clunky and ugly | Jun 16 00:46 |
balzac | no keyboard | Jun 16 00:46 |
Balrog | a GNU phone would be problematic, in part because of patents on GSM type tech | Jun 16 00:46 |
balzac | i want the gphone | Jun 16 00:46 |
balzac | well, GNU needs to launch some satellites | Jun 16 00:46 |
balzac | or shoot some down ;) | Jun 16 00:46 |
Balrog | balzac: cell phones don't use satellites | Jun 16 00:47 |
Balrog | they use cell towers, which are very expensive to build out | Jun 16 00:47 |
balzac | well, not directly | Jun 16 00:47 |
Balrog | yeah, for communication between towers they use land-based lines and satellite | Jun 16 00:47 |
balzac | those who own the cables on the ocean floors and the satellite networks dictate to us. | Jun 16 00:48 |
balzac | we need to bankrupt a few of these entities | Jun 16 00:48 |
balzac | and take their infrastructure | Jun 16 00:48 |
balzac | If I were president, I'd take ahuge bite out of rupert murdoch's media empire | Jun 16 00:49 |
Balrog | balzac: the president doesnt have that power | Jun 16 00:50 |
balzac | wanna bet? | Jun 16 00:50 |
Balrog | you're familiar with U.S. law? | Jun 16 00:50 |
balzac | teddy roosevelt was knownas the "trust breaker" | Jun 16 00:50 |
Balrog | yeah, but he needed support from Congress | Jun 16 00:50 |
balzac | yeah, and monopoly isn't legal, nor is collusion and price-fixing | Jun 16 00:50 |
Balrog | without that he wouldn't have got anywhere | Jun 16 00:50 |
Balrog | monopoly is, abuse of monopoly isn't | Jun 16 00:50 |
balzac | well, i'd wreak havoc on the scumbags if I were prez | Jun 16 00:51 |
ThistleWeb | hey, monopoly is cool | Jun 16 00:51 |
ThistleWeb | I spent many hours playing that as a kid | Jun 16 00:51 |
balzac | you've got to know how to take charge | Jun 16 00:51 |
ThistleWeb | oh wait, we're talking a different monopoly here? | Jun 16 00:51 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jun 16 00:51 |
_Hicham_ | I am having a Windows XP with no Internet Explorer | Jun 16 00:52 |
ThistleWeb | biab | Jun 16 00:52 |
Balrog | IE is still there, deep inside the system | Jun 16 00:52 |
_Hicham_ | where? | Jun 16 00:52 |
_Hicham_ | from the initial install, there is no Internet Explorer | Jun 16 00:52 |
_Hicham_ | it is not in program files | Jun 16 00:53 |
Balrog | the IE DLLs are there | Jun 16 00:53 |
_Hicham_ | the mshtml.dll u mean? | Jun 16 00:53 |
balzac | Balrog: you know i'm not clowning around... | Jun 16 00:53 |
_Hicham_ | I am gonna check | Jun 16 00:53 |
schestowitz | http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/15/sun_kills_rock_sparc/ "The word on the street today is that server maker Sun Microsystems - which is in the midst of being eaten by software giant Oracle for $5.6bn - has formally killed off the 16-core "Rock" UltraSparc-RK processor that has been in development for more than five years." | Jun 16 00:54 |
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yuhong | I just resized my Vista partition and installed Ubuntu. | Jun 16 00:54 |
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schestowitz | Stealing the Iranian Election http://www.juancole.com/2009/06/stealing-iranian-election.html | Jun 16 00:55 |
schestowitz | Oil and Indians Don't Mix http://www.truthout.org/061209A | Jun 16 00:56 |
yuhong | It seems to be a nice system. | Jun 16 00:56 |
balzac | Bush should be punished for making it such a common thing to steal elections | Jun 16 00:56 |
schestowitz | " Congratulations, Shell. $15 million: For a license to kill and drill, that's a quite a bargain." | Jun 16 00:56 |
schestowitz | BillG invests in those types of tycoons | Jun 16 00:56 |
yuhong | I would have said it is faster if it wasn't for the fact that the Vista install was an OEM preload.. | Jun 16 00:56 |
schestowitz | Nigerian kids die from the fumes | Jun 16 00:57 |
schestowitz | balzac: if he can, everyone can | Jun 16 00:57 |
schestowitz | Else it's "hypocrisy" | Jun 16 00:57 |
balzac | yeah, all the more reason to put him on the waterboard for 183 days | Jun 16 00:57 |
schestowitz | GW Bush -- worst president ever... who wasn't elected, either | Jun 16 00:57 |
schestowitz | The night of the long pricks | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | (swords) | Jun 16 00:58 |
yuhong | The trickest thing was to get Flash working. | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | yuhong: it's a one-time thing | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | Mint has Flash | Jun 16 00:58 |
yuhong | I now have Vista and Ubuntu 8.10 in a dual-boot. | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | In fact, Mint ought to have almost everything 'pragmatists' need | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | Except the Ubuntu trademark | Jun 16 00:58 |
schestowitz | yuhong: good. | Jun 16 00:59 |
yuhong | I tried gnash and swfdec, but both didn't entirely work with the web sites I visit. | Jun 16 00:59 |
Balrog | schestowitz: 64-bit flash is a little tricky | Jun 16 00:59 |
schestowitz | "The movie companies threatened to boycott digital TV if it didn't have DRM built in. It was a bluff." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#15%20June%202009%20%28Movie%20companies%20threatened%20to%20boycott%20digital%20TV%29 | Jun 16 00:59 |
Balrog | but it's very stable on a 64bit machine | Jun 16 00:59 |
yuhong | So I had to install Adobe's non-free Flash Player. | Jun 16 00:59 |
Balrog | there's an ars technica article on that | Jun 16 01:00 |
yuhong | Yep, the horrors of artificial scarity again. | Jun 16 01:00 |
schestowitz | yuhong: I use that too | Jun 16 01:00 |
yuhong | Ars is my favorite news source BTW. | Jun 16 01:00 |
schestowitz | To use YouTube | Jun 16 01:00 |
Balrog | I usually use Ars and Slashdot | Jun 16 01:00 |
yuhong | I do too. | Jun 16 01:00 |
yuhong | So far, it is IMO a great system. | Jun 16 01:01 |
yuhong | I would have said it is faster if it wasn't for the fact that my Vista install was an OEM preload. | Jun 16 01:01 |
Balrog | the patent royalties on ATSC DTV are horrendous, though | Jun 16 01:01 |
schestowitz | OT: Falkland islanders say Argentina is waging economic warfare < http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/14/falklands-islands-argentina-economy-industry > | Jun 16 01:01 |
_Hicham_ | wow, I can install firefox, but not internet explorer | Jun 16 01:01 |
_Hicham_ | hmmmmm | Jun 16 01:01 |
_Hicham_ | IE8 refuses to install | Jun 16 01:01 |
yuhong | Codecs was also tricky because of software patents. | Jun 16 01:02 |
yuhong | I got a warning from Ubuntu when I tried to install the gstreamer packages. | Jun 16 01:02 |
yuhong | BTW, what is the fundemental flaw in software patents that is why they need to be completely eliminated? | Jun 16 01:03 |
_Hicham_ | this is the most weird installation of Windows that I have ever had | Jun 16 01:03 |
Balrog | they prohibit you from writing a reimplementation of something that is compatible | Jun 16 01:03 |
Balrog | for example, because of sw patents on h.264, the x264 codec isn't really 'free' | Jun 16 01:04 |
Balrog | if you start including it in commercial products, you could get sued | Jun 16 01:05 |
Balrog | look at the recent MS vs. Tom-tom case (about FAT32 patents) | Jun 16 01:05 |
yuhong | I know, actually these patents was about FAT *LFN* extensions. | Jun 16 01:11 |
Balrog | yes exactly | Jun 16 01:11 |
yuhong | You know, these FAT LFN extensions that was introduced in 95 and NT 3.5. | Jun 16 01:11 |
Balrog | but without LFN, FAT is ugly | Jun 16 01:11 |
Balrog | yes. | Jun 16 01:11 |
yuhong | To go beyond 8.3 DOS filenames. | Jun 16 01:11 |
Balrog | I know | Jun 16 01:12 |
yuhong | NT 3.1 supported LFNs only on NTFS. | Jun 16 01:13 |
yuhong | And HPFS. | Jun 16 01:13 |
yuhong | And OS/2 supported them under only HPFS. | Jun 16 01:13 |
Balrog | NTFS and HPFS do LFN differently | Jun 16 01:13 |
schestowitz | " Open Source World was previously known as LinuxWorld. At this year's event, there will be MySQL-related content, seminars on mobile development and security, and cloud computing news. With free admission, it sounds worth attending." http://ostatic.com/blog/new-moves-needed-for-open-source-trade-shows | Jun 16 01:13 |
yuhong | For example, they generate different short names for LFNs. | Jun 16 01:14 |
yuhong | NetWare used the HPFS way since it used the OS/2 namespace to store both Windows and OS/2 LFNs. | Jun 16 01:14 |
yuhong | Neither NT 3.1 nor OS/2 supported LFNs on FAT. | Jun 16 01:14 |
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yuhong | Another old favorite for me was Raymond Chen's weblog from MS. | Jun 16 01:23 |
ThistleWeb | the 264 codec will incur costs from sometime next year | Jun 16 01:24 |
Balrog | ThistleWeb: ?? | Jun 16 01:25 |
ThistleWeb | I believe it's April 2010, they aint released details on who needs to pay them or for what uses | Jun 16 01:25 |
ThistleWeb | it's free to use until then | Jun 16 01:25 |
Balrog | url? | Jun 16 01:25 |
ThistleWeb | they plan to start charging for it though | Jun 16 01:25 |
ThistleWeb | dunno, it's on the TOC page of the patent holders according to the software freedom law center podcast | Jun 16 01:26 |
ThistleWeb | apparently it's listed, along with the date, which offhand I think is April 2010 | Jun 16 01:26 |
yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/canonical-to-boost-ubuntu-usability-by-tackling-papercuts.ars | Jun 16 01:27 |
yuhong | BTW, it wasn't just MS that ignored standards. | Jun 16 01:28 |
yuhong | Netscape ignored standards as well. | Jun 16 01:28 |
yuhong | In the browser war between IE and Netscape. | Jun 16 01:28 |
ThistleWeb | it's not sure if this was the page they were talking about http://www.mpegla.com/avc/ | Jun 16 01:29 |
ThistleWeb | that page has no start date | Jun 16 01:30 |
balzac | I better bug out for a while | Jun 16 01:30 |
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yuhong | Unfortunately MS broke Netscape's business model by making IE free. | Jun 16 01:30 |
yuhong | In fact it turned into a game. | Jun 16 01:31 |
yuhong | First Netscape tried to make money from browsers, MS made that free with IE, then Netscape tried to make money from web server software, then MS made that free with IIS. | Jun 16 01:32 |
Balrog | yuhong: what about apache? | Jun 16 01:33 |
yuhong | That was always free and open source and eventually became more popular as a web server. | Jun 16 01:34 |
yuhong | In fact, just as Netscape made it's browsers gratis, they also announced that future versions will become open source as well. | Jun 16 01:35 |
Balrog | and IIS wasn't really free | Jun 16 01:36 |
Balrog | yes, I know | Jun 16 01:36 |
mtnd3w | wow this maintainer: http://np237.livejournal.com/23901.html?view=162397 | Jun 16 01:37 |
mtnd3w | reading some of his comments... | Jun 16 01:37 |
mtnd3w | "And I am sorry to inform you that the Project does not give a shit of your political agenda. The reason why Tomboy was not included in the default Lenny installation is not because of stupid software patents. If we gave a shit of inapplicable software patents, we wouldn’t be shipping MP3 decoding software by default. If we gave a shit, we wouldn’t ship Mono in main, regardless of what is in the default installation. We don’ | Jun 16 01:38 |
mtnd3w | t give a shit of where is Mono coming from, as long as it is free software. As Jo explained, we don’t even give a shit of what Mono is, it just happens to be a dependency for Tomboy. " | Jun 16 01:38 |
Balrog | mtnd3w: gnote ..??? | Jun 16 01:38 |
yuhong | Indeed it is not as bad as a MS-Novell like deal, but they still should be careful. | Jun 16 01:39 |
ThistleWeb | the argument for / against mono by default has some things I can't figure out. What (normal users desktop) mono apps don't have an equivalent non mono one? | Jun 16 01:40 |
ThistleWeb | rythmbox or exaile do what banshee does | Jun 16 01:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "So well done, Microsoft! You've released a browser that deletes a system file it shouldn't even LOOK at!" http://is.gd/12VXF | Jun 16 01:40 | |
ThistleWeb | gnote does what tomboy does | Jun 16 01:40 |
ThistleWeb | gtumb does what f-spot does | Jun 16 01:41 |
ThistleWeb | what niche does a specific mono app fill for a regular user? | Jun 16 01:41 |
ThistleWeb | mono does fill a need, that if you already have .net apps that you rely on, and there's no linux compatible equivelant, then it lets them run on your linux pc | Jun 16 01:42 |
yuhong | Which is OK, which is why BN don't complain about DotGNU. | Jun 16 01:42 |
ThistleWeb | but if you don't have that need, then mono serves no usefull purpose as a default install | Jun 16 01:42 |
ThistleWeb | if you're not locked in, you don't start willingly locking yourself in | Jun 16 01:43 |
yuhong | Of course not. | Jun 16 01:43 |
ThistleWeb | I'd imagine that essensial .net apps would tend to be in buisnesses who contracted vendors to write proprietary apps specifically for them | Jun 16 01:44 |
ThistleWeb | that is not the typical user | Jun 16 01:45 |
ThistleWeb | that would involve an admin installing / configuring all the user lockdown their policies require | Jun 16 01:45 |
ThistleWeb | so I can't figure out what mono brings to the table for the normal user that ain't served elsewhere | Jun 16 01:46 |
yuhong | I have mono installed, and am not about to remove them. | Jun 16 01:46 |
ThistleWeb | what desktop mono apps have no non-mono equivelant? | Jun 16 01:47 |
ThistleWeb | possibly tomboy 6 months ago | Jun 16 01:47 |
ThistleWeb | but tomboy aint the only note taker | Jun 16 01:47 |
yuhong | Gnote is another. | Jun 16 01:47 |
ThistleWeb | yeah, thats what I mean, gnote didnt exist 6mths ago | Jun 16 01:48 |
ThistleWeb | alternates to f-spot? | Jun 16 01:48 |
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ThistleWeb | between gimp, inkscape, gthumb and gpicviewer, they do all I need with pics | Jun 16 01:49 |
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ThistleWeb | so I dunno what others are out there for organising collections | Jun 16 01:49 |
yuhong | One thing that irrates me is that there is no gdb symbol server. | Jun 16 01:49 |
yuhong | Like the MS symbol server I am used to on Windows. | Jun 16 01:49 |
yuhong | So I have to manually install symbols | Jun 16 01:49 |
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ThistleWeb | banshee, rythmbox and exaile all seem to be as good as each other with similar functionality and a few individual features the others dont have | Jun 16 01:50 |
ThistleWeb | and amarok of course | Jun 16 01:50 |
yuhong | And not all packages in Ubuntu have them. | Jun 16 01:52 |
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yuhong | Actually, packages in Ubuntu have ddebs, but it is would still be much easier if there was a GDB symbol server. | Jun 16 01:54 |
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neighborlee | schestowitz, btw thx for mentioning a great engine to take place of unity <mono>...panda3d rocks :)) | Jun 16 02:02 |
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DaemonMDV | Well, I've noticed a few things about Banshee | Jun 16 05:16 |
DaemonMDV | it's MTP support is a total crapshoot, sometimes it works great, sometimes it kills Banshee for no reason | Jun 16 05:16 |
DaemonMDV | it likes to crap up your device with metadata that only Banshee understands | Jun 16 05:17 |
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DaemonMDV | and instead of "sync" meaning transfer music that's on your disk to the device if it's not there | Jun 16 05:18 |
DaemonMDV | it also means delete anything off your disk that's not on the device | Jun 16 05:18 |
DaemonMDV | which is fun if you're on someone elses computer I'm sure | Jun 16 05:18 |
TLinton | does it support sansa players? | Jun 16 05:22 |
DaemonMDV | sort of | Jun 16 05:24 |
DaemonMDV | 1.5.0 is much better than 1.4.2 | Jun 16 05:24 |
DaemonMDV | but it's still hardly a guarantee that it will always work | Jun 16 05:24 |
DaemonMDV | and it never transfers cover art over MTP | Jun 16 05:24 |
DaemonMDV | Rhythmbox does | Jun 16 05:25 |
TLinton | hmm, i should try it | Jun 16 05:25 |
DaemonMDV | the only thing Rhythmbox can't tranfer over is video, so you can unplug the player, switch it to MSC mode, and drop videos in the "VIDEO" folder | Jun 16 05:25 |
TLinton | i haven't thought of that until now | Jun 16 05:25 |
DaemonMDV | the player can see anything added in either mode, but the OS can only see MSC added files when the device is in MSC mode | Jun 16 05:26 |
DaemonMDV | same with MTP | Jun 16 05:26 |
TLinton | like windows | Jun 16 05:26 |
TLinton | yeah | Jun 16 05:26 |
DaemonMDV | they're mutually exclusive as far as the OS is concerned | Jun 16 05:26 |
TLinton | it's ok of it doesn't sync well though | Jun 16 05:26 |
TLinton | i really don't sync | Jun 16 05:26 |
TLinton | just copy music over manually | Jun 16 05:26 |
DaemonMDV | the Sansa view does support MP4 but it doesn't understand most of the tag info | Jun 16 05:27 |
DaemonMDV | so it will get the track order wrong | Jun 16 05:27 |
DaemonMDV | you should plan on using MP3 or WMA | Jun 16 05:27 |
DaemonMDV | basically | Jun 16 05:27 |
neighborlee | DaemonMDV, yikes | Jun 16 05:28 |
neighborlee | aren't sansa one of few that do ogg ? | Jun 16 05:28 |
neighborlee | I realy need to get one if so | Jun 16 05:28 |
DaemonMDV | some models | Jun 16 05:29 |
DaemonMDV | the Clip supports Vorbis | Jun 16 05:29 |
DaemonMDV | but it's junk | Jun 16 05:29 |
DaemonMDV | only 2-4 gigs and no expansion bay | Jun 16 05:29 |
DaemonMDV | the Fuze supports it, but costs a lot | Jun 16 05:29 |
TLinton | yeah, i have a 4gb | Jun 16 05:29 |
TLinton | it's not bad | Jun 16 05:29 |
neighborlee | 4 would be fine I think | Jun 16 05:29 |
TLinton | i don't have that much music on it anyway | Jun 16 05:29 |
neighborlee | how much could I really listen to over a few hours anyway ;) | Jun 16 05:30 |
neighborlee | my intended target anyway | Jun 16 05:30 |
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DaemonMDV | I'm still trying different ways to tag MP4 files | Jun 16 05:30 |
DaemonMDV | but it either gets the order wrong or won't play them | Jun 16 05:30 |
DaemonMDV | just hoping I stumble on something that works | Jun 16 05:31 |
neighborlee | well if your testing is any indication..they can't be serious about even trying to get banshee into n ext buntu.. | Jun 16 05:31 |
DaemonMDV | Banshee 1.5.0 has a lot of good stuff, but it's severely lacking in many key aspects that are critical to make a good media player | Jun 16 05:32 |
DaemonMDV | Rhythmbox has less features, but it's far more reliable | Jun 16 05:32 |
neighborlee | correct it sound s like it yes | Jun 16 05:32 |
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DaemonMDV | if I was making the call for Ubuntu I'd stick with Rhythmbox in Karmic | Jun 16 05:32 |
DaemonMDV | and see where Banshee is at 1.6.0 | Jun 16 05:33 |
neighborlee | well based on that criteria seems logical | Jun 16 05:33 |
neighborlee | but I suspect..by then depends what fedora12 realy does that the landscape might be vastly different | Jun 16 05:33 |
mib_ox9bok | How is Exaile doing? | Jun 16 05:33 |
DaemonMDV | right now I'd say that Rhythmbox serves the needs of the most users more of the time | Jun 16 05:33 |
DaemonMDV | I do need to see about that | Jun 16 05:34 |
DaemonMDV | thanks for reminding me | Jun 16 05:34 |
mib_ox9bok | (I still use Amarok, even in gnome) | Jun 16 05:34 |
mib_ox9bok | (the 1.x branch, though) | Jun 16 05:34 |
DaemonMDV | yes, Amarok uses libmtp as well | Jun 16 05:34 |
neighborlee | its not real stable here in fedora anyway..rhythmbox is fine | Jun 16 05:34 |
mib_ox9bok | I still haven't upgraded | Jun 16 05:34 |
DaemonMDV | the libmtp people have done a good job | Jun 16 05:34 |
DaemonMDV | Banshee just does a psis poor job integrating with it | Jun 16 05:34 |
mib_ox9bok | Exaile seemed to be the closest thing to Amarok in Gnome when I tried it yonks ago, but it wasn't yet on par with Amarok at the time. | Jun 16 05:35 |
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mib_ox9bok | Well, like clockwork, we have another piece of potential FUD bashing ARM netbooks and Android before they're even out yet: | Jun 16 05:37 |
mib_ox9bok | http://blogs.zdnet.com/computers/?p=747 | Jun 16 05:37 |
DaemonMDV | the market will decide ARM's fate | Jun 16 05:38 |
DaemonMDV | I won't be buying one though | Jun 16 05:39 |
DaemonMDV | if I wanted a cheap netbook, I'd just go with a Via x86 knockoff | Jun 16 05:39 |
DaemonMDV | it's not like you're getting great performance or great battery life going with ARM | Jun 16 05:39 |
DaemonMDV | you're essentially buying incompatibility and lock-in | Jun 16 05:40 |
DaemonMDV | you can make a cheap desktop with Via board and CPU | Jun 16 05:40 |
DaemonMDV | you can get both together for like $60 | Jun 16 05:40 |
DaemonMDV | that leaves RAM, PSU, hard disk, a case, and a DVD-RW drive | Jun 16 05:41 |
neighborlee | some very able friends are using it for inexpensive gaming console ..not sure which one id have to ask but they seemed very excited about potential..they got panda3d working on it :) | Jun 16 05:41 |
DaemonMDV | case might be $80, a gig of RAM will cost you about $10, a PSY maybe $40, a hard drive maybe $50, and a DVD-RW for $20 | Jun 16 05:42 |
mib_ox9bok | Where does the incompatibility and lock-in come in? | Jun 16 05:42 |
DaemonMDV | ARM is not compatible with x86 | Jun 16 05:42 |
DaemonMDV | and Android is not exactly compatible with standard Linux | Jun 16 05:42 |
DaemonMDV | I suppose you could ditch that though | Jun 16 05:42 |
DaemonMDV | and use Debian | Jun 16 05:42 |
mib_ox9bok | What's the status of package availability for ARM? | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | HEY!! | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | haha | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | I got track order fixed | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | with MP4 | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | you have to use Rhythmbox's tag editor | Jun 16 05:43 |
DaemonMDV | THEN import to the device | Jun 16 05:44 |
DaemonMDV | Rhythmbox apparently just ignores the tags you make with Easytag | Jun 16 05:44 |
mib_ox9bok | Oh, btw, Daemon, I think I remember you saying something about the dearth of music players that can handle ogg and flac one time. The Sansa Fuze can handle them natively, and it isn't too expensive for an ipod-like player. | Jun 16 05:45 |
DaemonMDV | yeah, nobody will use them though | Jun 16 05:46 |
DaemonMDV | it appeases a few fringe customers | Jun 16 05:46 |
mib_ox9bok | I haven't yet understood the ipod's appeal. These days it's easy to find players out there with 8x the features at 1/4 or less the cost. | Jun 16 05:47 |
DaemonMDV | for some reason, the build of FAAC on Linux does better than the one for Windows | Jun 16 05:47 |
DaemonMDV | hmmm, I can use Foobar 2000 and Nero AAC in Wine | Jun 16 05:49 |
DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 05:50 |
neighborlee | mib_ox9bok, and without the lockin ;)) | Jun 16 05:50 |
DaemonMDV | neighborlee: So View is WMA/MP3, and MP4 support | Jun 16 05:51 |
DaemonMDV | for some reason you just have to edit the tags with the proper track order in Rhythmbox | Jun 16 05:51 |
neighborlee | now I get the FF 3.5b4 in fedora..OGG support | Jun 16 05:51 |
DaemonMDV | probably ends up on the device that way because MTP just has a database, not traditional tags or playlists | Jun 16 05:52 |
mib_ox9bok | I'm not a fan of mtp | Jun 16 05:52 |
neighborlee | well I hope the fedora 11 RC ending wasn't what toexpect of actual release code..rhythbox was taking forever to load audio cd into itself... | Jun 16 05:53 |
mib_ox9bok | I usually use msc instead | Jun 16 05:53 |
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DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 06:04 |
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DaemonMDV | using the Nero AAC converter through Foobar 2000 in Wine :P | Jun 16 06:05 |
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Cuban lols, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/15/antonio-castro-internet-romance | Jun 16 06:12 | |
DaemonMDV | hmmm, Nero AAC is faster in Wine than on Vista | Jun 16 06:18 |
DaemonMDV | about 25% faster | Jun 16 06:18 |
DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 16 06:18 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+mandriva.com | Jun 16 06:39 |
DaemonMDV | hmmm | Jun 16 06:40 |
neighborlee | nero bites | Jun 16 06:40 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+opensuse.org | Jun 16 06:40 |
neighborlee | ive used it..their support is horrid | Jun 16 06:40 |
neighborlee | and app BLOated | Jun 16 06:40 |
DaemonMDV | OpenSuse is about as popular as Fedora | Jun 16 06:41 |
neighborlee | not just me either..many friends concur | Jun 16 06:41 |
DaemonMDV | but interest in Fedora of course spiked because they just had a release | Jun 16 06:41 |
DaemonMDV | no, not Nero Suite | Jun 16 06:41 |
DaemonMDV | just the AAC encoder | Jun 16 06:41 |
neighborlee | well you mentioned nero so I had to comment ;) | Jun 16 06:41 |
neighborlee | brought up horrid memories ;) | Jun 16 06:42 |
neighborlee | well the day they consider taking out mono is the day they might achieve equal footing ;) | Jun 16 06:42 |
neighborlee | fairness..I always did admire opensuse installer | Jun 16 06:43 |
neighborlee | NOT package manager so much | Jun 16 06:43 |
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DaemonMDV | http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ubuntu.com+fedoraproject.org+mandriva.com+debian.org+microsoft.com | Jun 16 06:45 |
DaemonMDV | the most popular Linux distros vs microsoft.com hits | Jun 16 06:45 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft is the only thing left on the graph | Jun 16 06:45 |
DaemonMDV | even Ubuntu is nowhere close even though they are roughly three times as popular as Debian | Jun 16 06:46 |
DaemonMDV | and 5 times as popular as Mandriva | Jun 16 06:46 |
neighborlee | well with their purse strings who is surprised | Jun 16 06:48 |
neighborlee | nice site though | Jun 16 06:48 |
neighborlee | what OS are you in atm | Jun 16 06:49 |
DaemonMDV | Mandriva | Jun 16 06:49 |
neighborlee | im so tired of slow scrollin ;0- | Jun 16 06:49 |
neighborlee | ling | Jun 16 06:49 |
neighborlee | ah yes | Jun 16 06:49 |
neighborlee | VM or real thing | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | real | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu really grinds my gears | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | I can't stand it for very long | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | too many blatant fuck ups | Jun 16 06:50 |
neighborlee | hm | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | I plug in my Sansa and first Ubuntu tries mounting it as a drive | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | alerts me it failed | Jun 16 06:50 |
DaemonMDV | I click the OK button | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | it immediately tries to mount it as a CAMERA | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | alerts me it failed | Jun 16 06:51 |
neighborlee | heh | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | I click OK | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | "A digital media player has been detected" | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | FINALLY!!!! | Jun 16 06:51 |
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DaemonMDV | Open in Rhythmbox | Jun 16 06:51 |
neighborlee | weird | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | system hangs | Jun 16 06:51 |
DaemonMDV | Mandriva doesn't even try to mount it | Jun 16 06:52 |
DaemonMDV | which is OK because it's not supposed to | Jun 16 06:52 |
neighborlee | was going to ask ;) | Jun 16 06:52 |
DaemonMDV | but if I put the player in MSC mode, obviously it will mount it | Jun 16 06:52 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 06:52 |
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neighborlee | well | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | ive always had soft spot for mand* | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | I always loved using urpmf | Jun 16 06:53 |
DaemonMDV | they've had some really bizarre problems in the past | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | efficient..fast.. | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | yes | Jun 16 06:53 |
DaemonMDV | but 2009 and 2009 Spring have been pretty good | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | 2009 got a nasty review by distrwwatch this time..dunno im about to verify that ;) | Jun 16 06:53 |
neighborlee | I WISH they had a 64bit ONE livecd though... | Jun 16 06:54 |
DaemonMDV | according to Alexa, Mandriva is 7% more popular in this quarter than the last | Jun 16 06:54 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft is 5.51% LESS popular | Jun 16 06:54 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu.com is 76% more popular | Jun 16 06:55 |
neighborlee | yeah | Jun 16 06:55 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is really benefiting from disgruntled Vista users | Jun 16 06:55 |
neighborlee | quite | Jun 16 06:56 |
DaemonMDV | Apple.com has only gone up 1.3% | Jun 16 06:56 |
neighborlee | it wont last long I dont think..win7 is alot better..time will tell I guess | Jun 16 06:56 |
DaemonMDV | so that's not accounting for the exodus of Microsoft custoemrs | Jun 16 06:56 |
DaemonMDV | the damage is done | Jun 16 06:56 |
DaemonMDV | Vista has scared off Microsoft's traditionally profitable customers | Jun 16 06:57 |
neighborlee | supposedly vista >win are getting big breaks | Jun 16 06:57 |
neighborlee | win 7 | Jun 16 06:57 |
DaemonMDV | even with all the bought press for Win7 | Jun 16 06:57 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft is still getting less popular | Jun 16 06:57 |
DaemonMDV | as evidences by daily site hits | Jun 16 06:57 |
DaemonMDV | *evidenced | Jun 16 06:57 |
neighborlee | maybe good thing 360 is doing acceptably LOL | Jun 16 06:58 |
Win7 == Vista 2.0 http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/215957 | Jun 16 06:58 | |
Windows is and always be Windows. | Jun 16 06:58 | |
neighborlee | there is that | Jun 16 06:58 |
DaemonMDV | xbox.com is DOWN 14.1% | Jun 16 06:58 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 06:58 |
*will be | Jun 16 06:59 | |
DaemonMDV | errr 14.7% | Jun 16 06:59 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 06:59 |
DaemonMDV | read it wrong | Jun 16 06:59 |
neighborlee | woah | Jun 16 06:59 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/bing.com+google.com+yahoo.com | Jun 16 06:59 |
neighborlee | ive used bing I dont like it | Jun 16 07:00 |
DaemonMDV | Bing is at about 5% of search market at the moment | Jun 16 07:00 |
DaemonMDV | Google has nearly 90% to itself | Jun 16 07:00 |
I like David Gerard's write up of Bob Hope search. | Jun 16 07:00 | |
neighborlee | hmm sounds familar LOL | Jun 16 07:00 |
Braaains | Jun 16 07:00 | |
neighborlee | twitter, yup saw that ha | Jun 16 07:00 |
DaemonMDV | OpenSuse is 27% more popular in this quarter | Jun 16 07:01 |
DaemonMDV | Fedora is up 40% | Jun 16 07:01 |
neighborlee | new release..we'll see if it stays up | Jun 16 07:01 |
DaemonMDV | Suse hasn't made a new release in the last three months | Jun 16 07:01 |
DaemonMDV | so that wouldn't explain their popularity | Jun 16 07:02 |
DaemonMDV | Debian is down 5% | Jun 16 07:02 |
DaemonMDV | for the most part, Linux distros are getting more traffic to their sites | Jun 16 07:02 |
DaemonMDV | and Microsoft and Apple are doing worse than usual | Jun 16 07:02 |
neighborlee | DaemonMDV, well news of them playing with sliding away from mono wont hurt them | Jun 16 07:03 |
DaemonMDV | makes sense | Jun 16 07:03 |
DaemonMDV | bad economy | Jun 16 07:03 |
DaemonMDV | slap Linux on the old system | Jun 16 07:03 |
DaemonMDV | keep it going for a while | Jun 16 07:03 |
neighborlee | indeed | Jun 16 07:03 |
DaemonMDV | Windows makes its money off new computer sales | Jun 16 07:04 |
DaemonMDV | which are tanking | Jun 16 07:04 |
DaemonMDV | so Windows 7 might not help them as much as they're hoping | Jun 16 07:04 |
DaemonMDV | it's why they're giving away cheap upgrade kits | Jun 16 07:04 |
DaemonMDV | trying to keep people from going to Linux to save $160 on an upgrade | Jun 16 07:05 |
neighborlee | 'ready for vista' didn't exactly help them | Jun 16 07:05 |
DaemonMDV | they're sinking so they're throwing cheap Windows 7 at people to try to persuade them not to give up on Windows | Jun 16 07:05 |
neighborlee | not even with their own employees for petes sake LOL | Jun 16 07:05 |
DaemonMDV | I have absolutely no idea why Mandriva has to have Beagle | Jun 16 07:06 |
neighborlee | hm | Jun 16 07:06 |
DaemonMDV | the thing takes 60 megs of RAM at all times to make searches in your home folder 2 seconds faster | Jun 16 07:06 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu has been using Tracker for quite some time | Jun 16 07:07 |
DaemonMDV | they're both equally good | Jun 16 07:07 |
neighborlee | odd..I thought tracker was a standard these days...shows how much ive kept up I guesss on that front | Jun 16 07:07 |
neighborlee | yeah | Jun 16 07:07 |
DaemonMDV | but Tracker takes like 20 megs | Jun 16 07:07 |
neighborlee | I know about libbeagle in c,,is beagle pure mono | Jun 16 07:08 |
DaemonMDV | most of it is | Jun 16 07:08 |
DaemonMDV | libbeagle you need for Brasero though | Jun 16 07:09 |
DaemonMDV | so you shouldn't remove it | Jun 16 07:09 |
DaemonMDV | but yeah, that lib is in C | Jun 16 07:09 |
neighborlee | you have intel gpu ? | Jun 16 07:09 |
neighborlee | distrowatch on mandriva 2009 says big issue over gpu drivers | Jun 16 07:09 |
neighborlee | " Unfortunately, I've never seen a Mandriva release before with so many bugs. " | Jun 16 07:09 |
neighborlee | :( | Jun 16 07:10 |
neighborlee | http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20090525#feature | Jun 16 07:10 |
neighborlee | not that it might be in error, but there it is | Jun 16 07:10 |
DaemonMDV | http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/552/screenshotnqn.png | Jun 16 07:14 |
neighborlee | decent ;) | Jun 16 07:16 |
neighborlee | I remove bottom bar,,make top one 1/4 size and move to bottom :)) | Jun 16 07:17 |
neighborlee | oh and of course add app window list :) | Jun 16 07:17 |
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fewa | neighborlee, whats whong with gnome default layout? | Jun 16 07:20 |
neighborlee | nothing | Jun 16 07:20 |
neighborlee | im just finicky | Jun 16 07:20 |
neighborlee | I like things out of my way I guess | Jun 16 07:21 |
neighborlee | as in clean desktop | Jun 16 07:21 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is most popular in the United States | Jun 16 07:25 |
DaemonMDV | followed closely by India | Jun 16 07:25 |
DaemonMDV | then Germany | Jun 16 07:25 |
DaemonMDV | then falls to 5% and 4.5% of their visitors coming from China and the UK | Jun 16 07:25 |
DaemonMDV | respectively | Jun 16 07:25 |
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DaemonMDV | in terms of sheer numbers of users that is | Jun 16 07:26 |
DaemonMDV | in terms of every site on the internet, Ubuntu is number 2,998 in the United States | Jun 16 07:26 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft is number 18 | Jun 16 07:27 |
neighborlee | gez ;) | Jun 16 07:27 |
DaemonMDV | Mandriva is 43,510 | Jun 16 07:28 |
DaemonMDV | Mandriva is most popular in Ireland | Jun 16 07:28 |
neighborlee | o_0 | Jun 16 07:28 |
DaemonMDV | where is ranks 6,353 | Jun 16 07:28 |
DaemonMDV | in France it's 8,224 | Jun 16 07:28 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu is most popular in Austria followed closely by Germany | Jun 16 07:30 |
neighborlee | hm my show is on bbl,thx for intriguing stats | Jun 16 07:30 |
DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 16 07:30 |
fewa | http://notnews.today.com/2009/06/15/fear-of-microsoft-bob-hope-grips-google/ | Jun 16 08:06 |
fewa | hahaha | Jun 16 08:06 |
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DaemonMDV | hmmmm | Jun 16 08:18 |
DaemonMDV | How much does iTunes Plus music cost? | Jun 16 08:18 |
DaemonMDV | iTunes Plus songs are available at one of three price points. In the U.S. the pricing is 0.69 USD, 0.99 USD, or 1.29 USD | Jun 16 08:18 |
DaemonMDV | so what is there for 69 cents a track? | Jun 16 08:18 |
DaemonMDV | I've never seen anything at that price | Jun 16 08:18 |
DaemonMDV | actually if you buy music in iTunes Plus, you're paying $15.48 for the album | Jun 16 08:21 |
DaemonMDV | where the CD probably is $10 | Jun 16 08:21 |
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schestowitz | "Now we can really rock & roll with smoking guns I yearned to get done." | Jun 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | There's OCR on the two PDFs, but we need the full text to make articles. You may also want to add comments for me to embed (with | Jun 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | attribution to "wallclimber"). | Jun 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | ^^^We're resuming Comes now :-) | Jun 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | fewa: you know David? | Jun 16 08:37 |
fewa | no | Jun 16 08:38 |
fewa | but hes funny | Jun 16 08:38 |
DaemonMDV | the Christians are hijacking the special session of the Indiana Assembly | Jun 16 08:39 |
DaemonMDV | the purpose of the session is to come up with a budget | Jun 16 08:39 |
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fewa | DaemonMDV, what do you mean? | Jun 16 08:39 |
DaemonMDV | they're tryingto tack in a constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage into the budget | Jun 16 08:39 |
DaemonMDV | as a rider | Jun 16 08:39 |
fewa | wut | Jun 16 08:39 |
fewa | the legislature can pass constitutional amendments? | Jun 16 08:40 |
fewa | isnt that contrived? | Jun 16 08:40 |
DaemonMDV | with a super-majority and the governor's signature | Jun 16 08:40 |
DaemonMDV | yes | Jun 16 08:40 |
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fewa | then it isnt a rider | Jun 16 08:40 |
DaemonMDV | they have to get 3/4's of both the Indiana house and senate | Jun 16 08:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boycott Novell shall soon resume exposing crimes from Comes vs Microsoft exhibits | Jun 16 08:40 | |
DaemonMDV | that won't happen | Jun 16 08:40 |
DaemonMDV | yeah it is, if we have to pass a budget badly enough | Jun 16 08:40 |
DaemonMDV | they can keep attaching it til the Democrats break down andvote for it | Jun 16 08:41 |
DaemonMDV | so goes their thinking | Jun 16 08:41 |
fewa | so they can add a constitutional amendment to a bill with only 50%? | Jun 16 08:41 |
fewa | constitional amendments dont make sense with normal bills | Jun 16 08:41 |
DaemonMDV | they have to pass the full bill or reject the full bill | Jun 16 08:41 |
DaemonMDV | so the budget doesn't get passed til the Marriage Discrimination Amendment does | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | get it? | Jun 16 08:42 |
fewa | but a constitutional amendment is not a bill | Jun 16 08:42 |
fewa | it should be forced to be its own vote, and not be mixed | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | not at the federal level | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | well, it should, yes | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | but they're desperate | Jun 16 08:42 |
fewa | I dont think the federal government has ever put a bill and a constitutional amendment together | Jun 16 08:42 |
fewa | that doesnt seem like proper procedure | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | their Marriage Discrimination Amendment has been shot down by the Indiana House of Representatives | Jun 16 08:42 |
DaemonMDV | three years running | Jun 16 08:43 |
fewa | still seems like break of procedure | Jun 16 08:43 |
DaemonMDV | so now they'll stop at nothing | Jun 16 08:43 |
DaemonMDV | they're Republicans, they have no shame or honor | Jun 16 08:43 |
fewa | doesnt mean they are above the law | Jun 16 08:43 |
fewa | ooo, wait | Jun 16 08:43 |
DaemonMDV | the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules | Jun 16 08:44 |
DaemonMDV | the Christians are a big business with lots of bribe money to dish out | Jun 16 08:44 |
fewa | *big business christians | Jun 16 08:45 |
DaemonMDV | the Christians have a great business model | Jun 16 08:45 |
fewa | there are many denominations of christianity, and "American" is one of them | Jun 16 08:46 |
DaemonMDV | few expenses, pay no taxes, take in billions of dollars by threatening, coercing, and pandering | Jun 16 08:46 |
DaemonMDV | it's just so perfect | Jun 16 08:46 |
fewa | but a church lobbying for legislation or political canidates is illegal | Jun 16 08:46 |
DaemonMDV | no it isn't | Jun 16 08:46 |
fewa | AFAIK | Jun 16 08:46 |
fewa | it is for every other tax-exempt entitity | Jun 16 08:46 |
DaemonMDV | what they do is they pool money and give it to a proxy organization | Jun 16 08:47 |
DaemonMDV | who does the lobbying for them | Jun 16 08:47 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 08:47 |
fewa | a PAC | Jun 16 08:47 |
DaemonMDV | well, those too | Jun 16 08:47 |
DaemonMDV | but they do most of their lobbying through organizations that are not labeled as PACs | Jun 16 08:48 |
DaemonMDV | that way there's less regulations on them | Jun 16 08:48 |
DaemonMDV | the Christians are effectively an organized crime syndicate | Jun 16 08:48 |
fewa | while I dont neccicarly promote christianity, I still do think you are mistaken in lumping all christians together | Jun 16 08:49 |
fewa | althouth that might apply to Indiana | Jun 16 08:49 |
DaemonMDV | they're pretty much all the same | Jun 16 08:49 |
fewa | not in other parts of the world | Jun 16 08:49 |
DaemonMDV | once you get into crazy rituals and hokey groupthink practices | Jun 16 08:49 |
DaemonMDV | you start losing me | Jun 16 08:49 |
fewa | although they have many similarities | Jun 16 08:49 |
fewa | organized religion as a whole is quite under siege these days, being on the opposing end of science and progress | Jun 16 08:50 |
schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-16-009-35-OP-SW-LL-0000 | Jun 16 08:51 |
schestowitz | "He describes his job: my responsibilities cover day-to-day user and systems support, as well as the design and implementation of new services and infrastructure to better serve the needs of our users. That's in his vita ( http://www2.apebox.org/data/cv.pdf) which is obviously pimping for a new job: If you feel you can pay better, and need a qualified geek, then you can take a peek at my Curriculum Vitae. | Jun 16 08:51 |
schestowitz | In America we call that a Help Desk, which is usually occupied by several MSCEs. " | Jun 16 08:51 |
DaemonMDV | you can tell me one group may be slightly less stark raving crazy | Jun 16 08:51 |
DaemonMDV | and I'll consider believing it | Jun 16 08:51 |
DaemonMDV | but you can't tell me that any of them are totally sane | Jun 16 08:51 |
fewa | *for being seen as | Jun 16 08:53 |
schestowitz | http://www.penguspy.com/blog/games-on-linux-say-what-o/ "I am a gamer in a state of denial. I refuse to use windows anymore! I love the speed,stability and ease of use of my Linux desktop pc (doesn’t matter which distro I use). But I also love games :/" | Jun 16 09:01 |
DaemonMDV | that's what Wine is for | Jun 16 09:01 |
fewa | nexuiz ! | Jun 16 09:03 |
fewa | and that is why DirectX is evil | Jun 16 09:03 |
DaemonMDV | hmmm, that's why the files are small | Jun 16 09:04 |
DaemonMDV | SoundConverter passes the wrong settings to LAME | Jun 16 09:04 |
DaemonMDV | if you tell it to use V 0 it still passes V 1 is what it looks like | Jun 16 09:06 |
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schestowitz | Back in a moment | Jun 16 09:14 |
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-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Jun 16 09:18 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Okay! This is my first Thots post!<br>You should give it a try! http://www.tonido.com/ | Jun 16 09:19 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Migration to Linux and FOSS in India: http://ping.fm/lwYjc | Jun 16 09:47 | |
schestowitz | UK: You Can't Photograph Sensitive Buildings; Photogs: Which Are Sensitive? UK: That's Classified < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090614/1753145223.shtml > | Jun 16 09:48 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz sorry I haven't transcribed anything, I am discovering that a toddler takes up 200% of any number of parents' time! | Jun 16 09:57 | |
*DaemonMDV hates it when people use RAR | Jun 16 10:03 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @nzmrmn change yr Twitter settings to show GMT +03:30 Tehran as your timezone, change home city to Tehran to confuse the Iranian censors. | Jun 16 10:07 | |
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splosion | DaemonMDV: why so? | Jun 16 10:12 |
DaemonMDV | because it makes the files more vulnerable | Jun 16 10:13 |
DaemonMDV | any error in the archive ruins the whole thing | Jun 16 10:13 |
DaemonMDV | and it usually makes compressed music files larger anyway | Jun 16 10:13 |
splosion | sure, but they're handy for file-sharing sites | Jun 16 10:15 |
DaemonMDV | with bittorrent it hardly matter | Jun 16 10:15 |
DaemonMDV | *matters | Jun 16 10:15 |
splosion | does if you can't use bittorrent :) | Jun 16 10:16 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Your "d'awwwww!" story of the day (watch video): http://is.gd/13jmV | Jun 16 10:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard : can you do this one for us? Please? http://bit.ly/ye8Sk | Jun 16 10:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A sexist tech presentation bingo card by @skud: http://is.gd/13js0 | Jun 16 10:17 | |
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*Np237 (n=joss@diva.malsain.org) has left #boycottnovell ("The spice expands consciousness") | Jun 16 10:51 | |
splosion | good article re Bing http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/06/15/urnidgns852573C400693880002575D6007E49AE.DTL | Jun 16 10:51 |
schestowitz | Press Article has just covered Microsoft AstroTurfs and linked to BN. | Jun 16 10:52 |
schestowitz | latest show < tllts_302-06-10-09.mp3 > talks quite a bit about BN and Stefano.. | Jun 16 10:52 |
DaemonMDV | hmm, turns out this thing is fully MPEG-4 compliant | Jun 16 10:57 |
DaemonMDV | though they don't document most of this | Jun 16 10:57 |
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DaemonMDV | probably trying to get out of paying licensing fees | Jun 16 10:58 |
DaemonMDV | the documentation only says you can use MP3 or WMA | Jun 16 10:59 |
DaemonMDV | and I'll be damned if I can get a straight answer from Sandisk | Jun 16 10:59 |
DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 10:59 |
splosion | oh huh. Furk. bittorrent for me behind a corporate proxy. ooh. hosted in america, though. Methinks it'll get DMCA'd 10, 9, 8.. | Jun 16 11:01 |
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splosion | https://www.furk.net/ here | Jun 16 11:01 |
IsBob | hi there | Jun 16 11:01 |
DaemonMDV | you know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once? | Jun 16 11:02 |
DaemonMDV | ironically it was used against the MPAA | Jun 16 11:02 |
DaemonMDV | so I'm all for it | Jun 16 11:02 |
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DaemonMDV | the MPAA was distributing a "University anti-piracy toolkit" which used Xubuntu as its base | Jun 16 11:03 |
DaemonMDV | in violation of the GPL | Jun 16 11:03 |
DaemonMDV | so Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their site | Jun 16 11:03 |
DaemonMDV | which they did | Jun 16 11:03 |
IsBob | I’m looking for some advice | Jun 16 11:04 |
IsBob | my boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about Mono | Jun 16 11:04 |
IsBob | we’re in a deal with Microsoft currently | Jun 16 11:04 |
IsBob | the idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NET | Jun 16 11:05 |
IsBob | and well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s image | Jun 16 11:05 |
IsBob | the fact is, I'm not comfortable with doing such things | Jun 16 11:06 |
schestowitz | Hi, IsBob | Jun 16 11:06 |
schestowitz | What advice do you need? | Jun 16 11:07 |
schestowitz | And how do I know that you're not pulling our leg? | Jun 16 11:07 |
IsBob | huh? | Jun 16 11:07 |
schestowitz | We've been trolled a lot recently | Jun 16 11:07 |
IsBob | My problem is, I'm in an untenable position now | Jun 16 11:07 |
schestowitz | So I am being cautious | Jun 16 11:07 |
schestowitz | A company using Mono does not have a problem | Jun 16 11:08 |
IsBob | I've made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use it | Jun 16 11:08 |
schestowitz | Not in the sense of public image | Jun 16 11:08 |
schestowitz | The issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread it | Jun 16 11:08 |
schestowitz | Not with users | Jun 16 11:08 |
IsBob | and now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my management | Jun 16 11:08 |
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schestowitz | Microsoft spreads its API | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | Mono is good for Microsoft | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | For more than one reason | Jun 16 11:09 |
IsBob | I know all of that, I've seen it from the inside | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | it is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc. | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | Depending on the area of use | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | Mono is about monoculture | Jun 16 11:09 |
schestowitz | Making all enterprise do it the One Microsoft Way | Jun 16 11:10 |
schestowitz | c#, AD, VS, XAML, erc. | Jun 16 11:10 |
schestowitz | *etc | Jun 16 11:10 |
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schestowitz | Hi, oiaohm | Jun 16 11:12 |
IsBob | schestowitz: I've tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we're stuck in a deal where we're making them migrate away | Jun 16 11:14 |
oiaohm | Hi schestowitz | Jun 16 11:15 |
schestowitz | IsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono? | Jun 16 11:16 |
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schestowitz | If it's some C# code, then you can still port to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
schestowitz | Oracle is very committed to Java | Jun 16 11:17 |
schestowitz | It's one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apart | Jun 16 11:17 |
IsBob | there are 500 kloc already, it's way too late to migrate to another language | Jun 16 11:18 |
schestowitz | Oracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing... | Jun 16 11:18 |
IsBob | but anyway, that's not my problem right now | Jun 16 11:18 |
schestowitz | IsBob: what's running it? Mono? | Jun 16 11:19 |
schestowitz | Mono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoption | Jun 16 11:19 |
schestowitz | Mono too slow? | Jun 16 11:19 |
schestowitz | Migrate to .NET | Jun 16 11:19 |
schestowitz | Like free supper | Jun 16 11:19 |
IsBob | currently Mono, and we're migrating to .Net yes | Jun 16 11:19 |
schestowitz | Or trial versionware | Jun 16 11:19 |
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schestowitz | Oracle might do something similar with mysql | Jun 16 11:19 |
IsBob | my problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree with | Jun 16 11:20 |
schestowitz | Why migrate to .NET? I'm curious. | Jun 16 11:20 |
oiaohm | IsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming. | Jun 16 11:20 |
IsBob | I'm not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they've been pretty elusive about that | Jun 16 11:21 |
oiaohm | I am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal. OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed. | Jun 16 11:21 |
IsBob | one of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our client | Jun 16 11:21 |
schestowitz | IsBob: so you think they might come to them and say "look, you're using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?" | Jun 16 11:21 |
schestowitz | IsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts people | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | It's a form of bribe | Jun 16 11:22 |
IsBob | clearly | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | Common. Many examples in MS'c ase | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | *MS's | Jun 16 11:22 |
IsBob | I don't think they might do it, i think they already did | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | Mono is a ramp | Jun 16 11:22 |
IsBob | assorted with a nice "gift" | Jun 16 11:22 |
oiaohm | You are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips. | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | had they used Java, migration would be complicated | Jun 16 11:22 |
schestowitz | But this is EEE - embrace, extend... | Jun 16 11:23 |
oiaohm | So clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBob | Jun 16 11:23 |
oiaohm | There are technical issues with mono. | Jun 16 11:23 |
oiaohm | That can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue. | Jun 16 11:24 |
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DaemonMDV | http://www.macworld.com/article/137964/2009/01/itunesplus.html | Jun 16 11:24 |
DaemonMDV | The guy buys 2,419 DRM'd 129k tracks | Jun 16 11:25 |
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IsBob | my N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we're strongly "encouraged" to publish things that will increase Mono's acceptance | Jun 16 11:25 |
DaemonMDV | then complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first place | Jun 16 11:25 |
DaemonMDV | (256k no DRM) | Jun 16 11:25 |
schestowitz | IsBob: encouraged by whom? | Jun 16 11:25 |
schestowitz | Novell? Microsoft? | Jun 16 11:26 |
IsBob | by our management | Jun 16 11:26 |
DaemonMDV | dear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you'd think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork over | Jun 16 11:26 |
DaemonMDV | :P | Jun 16 11:26 |
IsBob | not sure who's behind | Jun 16 11:26 |
IsBob | of course we already have a big contract with Novell | Jun 16 11:26 |
schestowitz | It's the same with MS/Novell cotnracts | Jun 16 11:26 |
schestowitz | I know cause I was told | Jun 16 11:26 |
IsBob | and they probably don't want to have to renegociate it | Jun 16 11:26 |
schestowitz | They go to clients... | Jun 16 11:26 |
splosion | be a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented for | Jun 16 11:26 |
schestowitz | And they tell them to put "IP" in the press releases | Jun 16 11:26 |
schestowitz | As in, we'll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote these | Jun 16 11:27 |
DaemonMDV | yeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was you | Jun 16 11:27 |
schestowitz | I.e. promote 'Linux tax' (MS patents | Jun 16 11:27 |
IsBob | splosion: I'm pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaks | Jun 16 11:27 |
schestowitz | For a bribe | Jun 16 11:27 |
DaemonMDV | (goes without saying) | Jun 16 11:27 |
IsBob | I already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the past | Jun 16 11:27 |
oiaohm | Does not matter really IsBob. IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux. | Jun 16 11:27 |
schestowitz | splosion: +1 | Jun 16 11:27 |
splosion | IsBob: bummer | Jun 16 11:27 |
DaemonMDV | Easy URPMI is still not back up | Jun 16 11:28 |
DaemonMDV | odd | Jun 16 11:28 |
oiaohm | Basically your bosses should be asking who is going to win. IBM and Orcale or MS. | Jun 16 11:28 |
DaemonMDV | but shows how much people depend on less than legal stuff | Jun 16 11:28 |
DaemonMDV | frankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses it | Jun 16 11:29 |
schestowitz | So basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NET | Jun 16 11:29 |
schestowitz | Then it can start shouting "IP" and "thieves" and offer .NET (Windows only) | Jun 16 11:29 |
schestowitz | It's so predictable | Jun 16 11:29 |
oiaohm | Both Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz. | Jun 16 11:29 |
oiaohm | As with all battles there are some wins and some losses. | Jun 16 11:30 |
DaemonMDV | I found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure device | Jun 16 11:30 |
DaemonMDV | probably why it's so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync it | Jun 16 11:30 |
oiaohm | In the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term. | Jun 16 11:30 |
IsBob | schestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soon | Jun 16 11:31 |
IsBob | and I wonder how many of the similar statements we've seen recently have been made by people in the same situation | Jun 16 11:31 |
oiaohm | Can you still cover emerging techs IsBob | Jun 16 11:31 |
oiaohm | like vala from gnome and state of samba. | Jun 16 11:31 |
schestowitz | IsBob: bought opinions | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | Microsoft does lots of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | E.g. Tesco example from last week in BN | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | ASUS' fake "Windows is better" | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | "vendor recommends Vista" (Microsoft bribes for this too) | Jun 16 11:32 |
oiaohm | Creativity the say not to say anything bad against mono. There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs. | Jun 16 11:32 |
DaemonMDV | of course it is, you know just what to expect out of it | Jun 16 11:32 |
DaemonMDV | *cough* | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | "We're interested in IP peace of mind" (not exact quote) | Jun 16 11:32 |
schestowitz | But I never expected better from a company of thugs | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | Bribing people to utters marketing lies | Jun 16 11:33 |
IsBob | I wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent moves | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | And later they point to it.. | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | And say... | Jun 16 11:33 |
DaemonMDV | schestowitz: According to Alexa's site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going up | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | "Look, Dell recommends Vista" | Jun 16 11:33 |
DaemonMDV | but Microsoft.com has gone down over 5% | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | and "HP recommends Vista" | Jun 16 11:33 |
DaemonMDV | in this quarter | Jun 16 11:33 |
schestowitz | And "everyone loves Mono" | Jun 16 11:34 |
DaemonMDV | despite all the Windows 7 blitz | Jun 16 11:34 |
schestowitz | "Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial" | Jun 16 11:34 |
schestowitz | Don't get me started on the Vista7 slog | Jun 16 11:34 |
schestowitz | They bribe bloggers | Jun 16 11:34 |
schestowitz | They bribe journalists | Jun 16 11:34 |
DaemonMDV | it still dwarfs any Linux distro's website hits | Jun 16 11:34 |
schestowitz | And they attack those who say the truth | Jun 16 11:34 |
DaemonMDV | but it is on the way down | Jun 16 11:34 |
oiaohm | Are those hits counting windows update DaemonMDV | Jun 16 11:35 |
schestowitz | It plays dirtty | Jun 16 11:35 |
schestowitz | [on its way down] | Jun 16 11:35 |
DaemonMDV | well, that's not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertising | Jun 16 11:35 |
DaemonMDV | no | Jun 16 11:35 |
DaemonMDV | only browsers | Jun 16 11:35 |
DaemonMDV | Microsoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United States | Jun 16 11:36 |
IsBob | it pains me to see all of that because I'm exactly in the same situation, with hands tied | Jun 16 11:36 |
DaemonMDV | Ubuntu was like 2400-something | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | Windows Update is Akamai (Linux) | Jun 16 11:36 |
IsBob | I wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crap | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | DaemonMDV: nope | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | Alexa is no gold standard | Jun 16 11:36 |
oiaohm | People finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet. | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | It's stupid to even make it believable | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | IsBob: join the fight | Jun 16 11:36 |
DaemonMDV | technet is a different domain | Jun 16 11:36 |
schestowitz | Expose what you can | Jun 16 11:37 |
schestowitz | It's possible to do both | Jun 16 11:37 |
schestowitz | Do the job and leaking the truth | Jun 16 11:37 |
schestowitz | Many things in BN are based on whistle blowers | Jun 16 11:37 |
oiaohm | Just had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV. | Jun 16 11:37 |
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oiaohm | IsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:37 |
oiaohm | sometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about. | Jun 16 11:38 |
schestowitz | Forbidden = "we are doing something bad" | Jun 16 11:38 |
schestowitz | Or "don't ask" | Jun 16 11:38 |
schestowitz | Honest people work openly | Jun 16 11:38 |
schestowitz | Like here in BN | Jun 16 11:38 |
schestowitz | We don't do PMs | Jun 16 11:39 |
schestowitz | And some people still try to trip us up this way | Jun 16 11:39 |
oiaohm | I have had to work under all sorts of different conditions. | Jun 16 11:39 |
DaemonMDV | http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/the-%E2%80%98anti-stab%E2%80%99-knife-that-works-just-fine-in-the-kitchen-but-cant-kill-a-man/ | Jun 16 11:40 |
oiaohm | Lot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective. | Jun 16 11:40 |
DaemonMDV | Also, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs. | Jun 16 11:40 |
DaemonMDV | lmao | Jun 16 11:40 |
oiaohm | God that knife is useless. | Jun 16 11:41 |
oiaohm | Slash stab method would still work perfectly with it. | Jun 16 11:41 |
DaemonMDV | well, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UK | Jun 16 11:43 |
DaemonMDV | can't really go too hard on it | Jun 16 11:43 |
oiaohm | Besides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times. | Jun 16 11:43 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 11:43 |
DaemonMDV | well, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it? | Jun 16 11:44 |
DaemonMDV | so *I* can't stab anyone? | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | People will DIY their knives | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | What a stupid idea | Jun 16 11:44 |
DaemonMDV | Maybe I'll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someone | Jun 16 11:44 |
DaemonMDV | heh | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | Maybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchen | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | And ban metal | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | Or... | Jun 16 11:44 |
schestowitz | "Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?" | Jun 16 11:45 |
DaemonMDV | well get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knives | Jun 16 11:45 |
DaemonMDV | then someone breaks into your house | Jun 16 11:45 |
schestowitz | They relocate the crime | Jun 16 11:45 |
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DaemonMDV | and you wish you had a knife to protect yourself with | Jun 16 11:45 |
Np237 | heya | Jun 16 11:45 |
schestowitz | Good luck going to people's house confiscating all the old utensils | Jun 16 11:45 |
schestowitz | Np237: hey, what's up? | Jun 16 11:45 |
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Np237 | I’d like to thank you all people | Jun 16 11:45 |
oiaohm | There is such thing as a true knife that is 100 percent useless for stabing and works great. It has two handles and a curved blade that you rock to cut through stuff. | Jun 16 11:46 |
DaemonMDV | well, someone would be fairly suicidal to break into my home | Jun 16 11:46 |
DaemonMDV | I'll just shoot them first then ask que.....on second thought | Jun 16 11:46 |
DaemonMDV | just the shooting, pretty much | Jun 16 11:46 |
DaemonMDV | :D | Jun 16 11:46 |
Np237 | I think it’s people originating from your site who filled my blog with really entertaining comments | Jun 16 11:46 |
Np237 | I had one of the fun times of my life | Jun 16 11:46 |
DaemonMDV | really? I get pissed off Microsoft, Apple, and Ubuntu fanboys | Jun 16 11:47 |
schestowitz | Np237: which blog? | Jun 16 11:47 |
DaemonMDV | who don't seem to understand I have a delete button | Jun 16 11:47 |
schestowitz | And I can't be held responsible for what readers say | Jun 16 11:47 |
Np237 | schestowitz: http://np237.livejournal.com/ | Jun 16 11:48 |
schestowitz | There are some trolls out there who give us a bad name | Jun 16 11:48 |
oiaohm | http://www.northcoastknives.com/Ulu-Done.jpg << This kind of knife DaemonMDV. If you want to use a knife that cannot stab you use one of these. | Jun 16 11:48 |
Np237 | schestowitz: rrrright, and you don’t encourage them | Jun 16 11:48 |
DaemonMDV | Mono isn't dead, they pop out some horrible new crapplet every now and then to show you they haven't started caring | Jun 16 11:49 |
DaemonMDV | and then every distro decides to integrate it | Jun 16 11:49 |
DaemonMDV | :) | Jun 16 11:49 |
*DaemonMDV wishes they'd stop while GNOME can still operate | Jun 16 11:49 | |
schestowitz | Np237: no. | Jun 16 11:49 |
schestowitz | I don't. | Jun 16 11:49 |
schestowitz | Not trolls | Jun 16 11:49 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I think Lefty made it clear that you appreciate this kind of behavior as long as it’s not directly linked to your site | Jun 16 11:49 |
schestowitz | tacone is not a troll for example | Jun 16 11:49 |
schestowitz | oiaohm isn't, either | Jun 16 11:50 |
DaemonMDV | between Beagle and Tomboy, you're using 100 megs of RAM to take notes and do search indexes | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | But there are some crazy ones | Jun 16 11:50 |
Np237 | but anyway, I don’t care, it was so much fun to see all of those losers | Jun 16 11:50 |
DaemonMDV | what a crock of shit | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | Like those with death wishes and cursing | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | Nothing to do with us | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | Giving us just a bad name | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | Rotten apples | Jun 16 11:50 |
Np237 | like OMGWTF you must work for Micro$hit for adding tomboy to your distribution !!!!1! | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | Np237: Mono criticism | Jun 16 11:50 |
DaemonMDV | it takes more RAM to load those two Mono crapplets than to run some operating systems | Jun 16 11:50 |
schestowitz | I don't mind mono criticism | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | But I don't want to be associated with the zealots | Jun 16 11:51 |
oiaohm | IP grounds on Mono are annoying. | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | I mean, the ones that start some Jihad and personal abuse | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | Groklaw had similar issues | Jun 16 11:51 |
Np237 | schestowitz: “I liked what you do, but try to distance yourself from the site to give it credibility.” Aren’t those words from you? | Jun 16 11:51 |
oiaohm | Technical grounds that they try to claim advantage on with mono is stupid. | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | People who misrepresent the site | Jun 16 11:51 |
DaemonMDV | Mono apps are just wickedly insidious little RAM guzzlers | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | Albeit they usually mean well in the sense that they know a threat to Linux | Jun 16 11:51 |
schestowitz | It's how they go about which spoil the broth | Jun 16 11:52 |
Np237 | schestowitz: no, they ARE the threat to Linux | Jun 16 11:52 |
schestowitz | Windows has that kind of trolls too | Jun 16 11:52 |
oiaohm | Nothing is really a long term threat to Linux Np237 | Jun 16 11:52 |
schestowitz | Edgy mentalities | Jun 16 11:52 |
Np237 | toxic behavior in the community is the danger for the community | Jun 16 11:52 |
schestowitz | Mac too | Jun 16 11:52 |
oiaohm | Its out lived all forms of toxic behavior. | Jun 16 11:52 |
schestowitz | And then there's ones like Maureen OGara | Jun 16 11:52 |
schestowitz | Every side has a share of village idiots | Jun 16 11:52 |
oiaohm | hardware lock out toxic behavior is disappearing. | Jun 16 11:53 |
schestowitz | And to attack those idiots is to make inner wars | Jun 16 11:53 |
Np237 | and you’re the ones spreading this toxic behavior by spitting on best-of-breed free software | Jun 16 11:53 |
schestowitz | And I don't feel like starting to attack the crazies among us | Jun 16 11:53 |
oiaohm | Name 1 mono application that is best of breed Np237 | Jun 16 11:53 |
schestowitz | Np237: read what we write in posts | Jun 16 11:53 |
oiaohm | Its like trying to name 1 vb application that is best of breed. | Jun 16 11:53 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I know the bullshit you write in posts | Jun 16 11:53 |
schestowitz | Not some anonymous trolls who use the comments (no censorship) to rant and spread hate | Jun 16 11:54 |
Np237 | oiaohm: obviously you don’t know what you’re talking about | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | Np237: thanks but it's no BS | Jun 16 11:54 |
oiaohm | I do Np237 | Jun 16 11:54 |
oiaohm | Try to name 1 Np237 | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | If you find factual mistakes, pls do point them out | Jun 16 11:54 |
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Omar871 | LOL! I was reading this article lately, but I just found out it's for you Roy! :D http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3744796 | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | Np237: there will always be some low-lives out there | Jun 16 11:54 |
oiaohm | More often that not I can point you to a better program that does the same thing on less ram Np237 | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | Even more as Linux grows | Jun 16 11:54 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you’re comparing one of the worst languages ever imagined to a multi-language *framework* | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | Cope with it | Jun 16 11:54 |
schestowitz | I never spoke to the Fink guy | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | He commented in BN | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | I seem to have replied to him in the comments | Jun 16 11:55 |
Np237 | schestowitz: and he faked the PGP signature too? | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | Not even knowing who he was | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | Someone showed me he threatened violence | Jun 16 11:55 |
Np237 | oiaohm: like gnote? LOL | Jun 16 11:55 |
oiaohm | .net is from the blood line of VB it has improved but not enough. | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | Np237: who said there wa s afake | Jun 16 11:55 |
splosion | fink was like some kind of comedy character | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | It was an out-of-context message | Jun 16 11:55 |
schestowitz | And had I been in touch with him -- which I wasn't -- why would he try to accuse me of things? | Jun 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | You want to see what he wrote to David after threatening him? | Jun 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | Let me get it | Jun 16 11:56 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I think it would be fun if you explained the context in which you disapproved of him yet said “I liked what you do” | Jun 16 11:56 |
oiaohm | gnote is poor note management application compared to what is in KDE. basket. | Jun 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | It's something like "please don't sue me" | Jun 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | And then the coward told David to just go after me | Jun 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | Because he's a nutter, that's why | Jun 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | Just flinging crap and hoping the whole world will take his crap and leave him alone. | Jun 16 11:57 |
oiaohm | Most .net applications exist for the simple fact Distribution developers are not prepaid to mix KDE and Gnome runtime to deliveer the true best of breed applications Np237 | Jun 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | And it's a waste of time talking about this | Jun 16 11:57 |
Np237 | oiaohm: oh, sure. kdebetternomonocrapnovellsucks | Jun 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | I've wasted enough time because of that prick. | Jun 16 11:57 |
oiaohm | Have you ever used basket Np237 | Jun 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | Like babysitter job | Jun 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | For people who READ BN | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | oiaohm: mixing KDE and GNOME applications is a completely stupid thing to do | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | their philosophy is so fundamentally different | Jun 16 11:58 |
oiaohm | Its not Np237 | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | it would look like Windoze in the end | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | with completely different-looking applications, conflicting philosophies | Jun 16 11:58 |
schestowitz | Np237: “I liked what you do”= criticise Mono | Jun 16 11:58 |
schestowitz | David knows it | Jun 16 11:58 |
schestowitz | But he deliberate puts it out of context and all. | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | we try to provide users a CONSISTENT experience | Jun 16 11:58 |
oiaohm | gtk-qt engine back end makes gtk applications look qt. | Jun 16 11:58 |
Np237 | oiaohm: it’s not a question of looks | Jun 16 11:59 |
oiaohm | So there is no theme problom. | Jun 16 11:59 |
Np237 | bwahahaha | Jun 16 11:59 |
schestowitz | Np237: gnote is gtk. Consistent | Jun 16 11:59 |
Np237 | it has to be a joke | Jun 16 11:59 |
oiaohm | It also replaces the default dialogs. | Jun 16 11:59 |
schestowitz | Why not make it consistent by rewriting all of gnome in mono? | Jun 16 11:59 |
Np237 | schestowitz: gnote is a piece of shit written by a hateful developer alone, who will stop maintaining it in 3 months | Jun 16 11:59 |
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schestowitz | Miguel would love that | Jun 16 11:59 |
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oiaohm | Gnome has never bothered working working on intergration. | Jun 16 11:59 |
oiaohm | KDE guys did. | Jun 16 11:59 |
trmanco | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=418866 | Jun 16 11:59 |
Np237 | schestowitz: why would we replace working C applications with C# ones? | Jun 16 11:59 |
schestowitz | brb | Jun 16 12:00 |
Np237 | oiaohm: sure, kdebetternomonocrapnovellsucks | Jun 16 12:00 |
trmanco | lol | Jun 16 12:00 |
oiaohm | You are badly wrong best of breed applications exist in all differnet places. | Jun 16 12:00 |
oiaohm | there are some best of breed in gnome. | Jun 16 12:00 |
oiaohm | Just does not happen to be any of the .net applications. | Jun 16 12:01 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you seem to misunderstand something | Jun 16 12:01 |
splosion | Adding a bunch of Mono dependencies to a stupid little note-taking app is idiotic | Jun 16 12:01 |
Np237 | oiaohm: a desktop environment is not just a set of applications | Jun 16 12:01 |
Np237 | splosion: you reason backwards | Jun 16 12:01 |
oiaohm | Np237: desktop environment is just that. | Jun 16 12:01 |
Np237 | splosion: the best note-taking app we have that integrates with GNOME happens to be written in C# | Jun 16 12:02 |
oiaohm | Only reason for major differences in look is a failure to agree on a common standared for them. | Jun 16 12:02 |
Np237 | splosion: and it’s one of the languages supported by GNOME | Jun 16 12:02 |
oiaohm | theming. | Jun 16 12:02 |
Np237 | like C, C++, Python, Perl, Java | Jun 16 12:02 |
oiaohm | There is no reason why gnome and kde could not merge. | Jun 16 12:02 |
Np237 | it’s just that nobody ever provided a good app in Perl or Java… | Jun 16 12:02 |
oiaohm | Other than simple pig headedness. | Jun 16 12:02 |
Np237 | oiaohm: no it’s not theming, you obviously have absolutely no idea of what you’re talking about | Jun 16 12:03 |
splosion | So what? That level of complexity for a note-taking app is unnecessary | Jun 16 12:03 |
oiaohm | Theming including common dialogs. | Jun 16 12:03 |
Np237 | oiaohm: I wouldn’t expect less from someone who just whines all day long at boycottnovell.com and never develops anything | Jun 16 12:03 |
oiaohm | Like the common print dialog from LSB. | Jun 16 12:03 |
Np237 | splosion: which complexity? | Jun 16 12:03 |
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oiaohm | There is no reason why they cannot merge Np237 | Jun 16 12:03 |
Np237 | splosion: for users it’s the same | Jun 16 12:03 |
oiaohm | Just take users to stop picking gnome or kde and say stuff it. | Jun 16 12:04 |
Np237 | oiaohm: document yourself before making such idiotic statements | Jun 16 12:04 |
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oiaohm | I remember when kde and gnome did not even have shared menus. | Jun 16 12:04 |
oiaohm | The merge of them has been under way for years. | Jun 16 12:04 |
Np237 | sharing menus is one of the incredibly stupid things that were done | Jun 16 12:04 |
oiaohm | LOL | Jun 16 12:05 |
Np237 | it took months to clean them up | Jun 16 12:05 |
splosion | The following extra packages will be installed: libart2.24-cil libgconf2.24-cil libglade2.0-cil libglib2.0-cil libgmime2.2a-cil libgnome-vfs2.24-cil libgnome2.24-cil libgnomepanel2.24-cil libgtk2.0-cil libmono-addins-gui0.2-cil libmono-addins0.2-cil libmono-cairo2.0-cil libmono-corlib2.0-cil libmono-i18n2.0-cil libmono-posix2.0-cil libmono-security2 | Jun 16 12:05 |
splosion | and so on | Jun 16 12:05 |
oiaohm | And why was sharing of menus done Np237 | Jun 16 12:05 |
Np237 | oiaohm: for 3rd party applications | Jun 16 12:05 |
oiaohm | For the simple fact neither kde or gnome have all the best of breed applications. | Jun 16 12:05 |
Np237 | oiaohm: it doesn’t bring anything to KDE or GNOME themselves | Jun 16 12:05 |
Np237 | oiaohm: apart from aving tons of KDE config applets in the GNOME configuration menu | Jun 16 12:06 |
Np237 | making the whole user interface completely inconsistent | Jun 16 12:06 |
oiaohm | That is simple case of pig headness. Niether KDE and Gnome work openly with each other. | Jun 16 12:06 |
Np237 | splosion: same if you install a C++ application, it will bring tons of C++ libs | Jun 16 12:07 |
Np237 | splosion: for a user it’s the same. Install app, app works | Jun 16 12:07 |
oiaohm | Np237: funny part C++ overwraped c lib are basically headers Np237 | Jun 16 12:08 |
oiaohm | c# requires larger interface libs. | Jun 16 12:08 |
oiaohm | Reason why set of gnome developers started work on vala due lots of mono excess wieght even when compared to c++ | Jun 16 12:09 |
Np237 | Package: libgtkmm-2.4-1c2a | Jun 16 12:09 |
Np237 | Installed-Size: 5216 | Jun 16 12:09 |
Np237 | Package: libgtk2.0-cil | Jun 16 12:09 |
Np237 | Installed-Size: 4304 | Jun 16 12:09 |
Np237 | LOL | Jun 16 12:09 |
oiaohm | Funny messure memory usage. | Jun 16 12:10 |
Np237 | and the C++ package doesn’t include the development libraries and headers | Jun 16 12:10 |
oiaohm | Diskspace the C++ package is large. | Jun 16 12:10 |
oiaohm | Memory usage the cil is. | Jun 16 12:10 |
Np237 | yeah, Python uses a lot of RAM too | Jun 16 12:10 |
oiaohm | Even diskspace the cil is heavier if you are using cache of converion to native. | Jun 16 12:10 |
Np237 | but it brings a lot of advantages | Jun 16 12:10 |
oiaohm | Sorry. | Jun 16 12:11 |
oiaohm | Python well writen python applications are lighter than mono. | Jun 16 12:11 |
Np237 | bwaahahahahahahaaaaa | Jun 16 12:11 |
oiaohm | Python has clean binding to c++ | Jun 16 12:11 |
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oiaohm | Blender and other engines depend on python. | Jun 16 12:12 |
oiaohm | The python bindings are lot lighter than mono's. | Jun 16 12:12 |
oiaohm | Even perls is. | Jun 16 12:12 |
oiaohm | Mono was not designed it intergrate well back to native libraries. | Jun 16 12:13 |
Np237 | anyway, you guys are incredibly funny | Jun 16 12:13 |
trmanco | http://unite.opera.com/ | Jun 16 12:13 |
Np237 | you don’t do anything for free software except spitting on some of it | Jun 16 12:13 |
Np237 | yet you tell developers what they should do | Jun 16 12:13 |
oiaohm | LOL | Jun 16 12:13 |
Np237 | some developers happen to prefer C#, that’s all | Jun 16 12:14 |
Np237 | get over it | Jun 16 12:14 |
mib_aqxu6a | np237 Since when is raising a concern telling someone what to do? | Jun 16 12:14 |
oiaohm | Some people pref VB. | Jun 16 12:14 |
oiaohm | Does not mean we have to approve of the selection Np237. | Jun 16 12:14 |
Np237 | mib_aqxu6a: stop the shit, your only rhetoric is OMG MONO SUXXXXXXXX IT’S MICRO$HIT | Jun 16 12:15 |
mib_aqxu6a | I still think no censorship is best in the long run | Jun 16 12:15 |
mib_aqxu6a | even for trolls | Jun 16 12:15 |
oiaohm | Np237: what annoys me most is people like you who always point at diskspace. | Jun 16 12:16 |
Np237 | oiaohm: I don’t fscking care about diskspace | Jun 16 12:16 |
oiaohm | Diskspace is the simplest factor to deal with. | Jun 16 12:16 |
splosion | Vala is on the way, and a few folk are attempting to get C# functionality sans Mono with gcc tools and whatnot. should be interesting to see what happens there | Jun 16 12:16 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you were the one to raise this | Jun 16 12:16 |
oiaohm | I said it was heavier. | Jun 16 12:16 |
oiaohm | I did not say it was disk. | Jun 16 12:16 |
Np237 | <oiaohm> c# requires larger interface libs. | Jun 16 12:16 |
oiaohm | Larger in ram. | Jun 16 12:17 |
Np237 | you said that, and it is wrong | Jun 16 12:17 |
oiaohm | You presumed disk. | Jun 16 12:17 |
mib_aqxu6a | assumed | Jun 16 12:17 |
Np237 | wow, I have to admit something about you | Jun 16 12:18 |
Np237 | you’re hell of a good troller | Jun 16 12:18 |
Np237 | is it at BN that you learn to do that? | Jun 16 12:18 |
oiaohm | You would have known it if you had seen me comment on mono before Np237 | Jun 16 12:18 |
oiaohm | My issue with mono has always been its memory usage. | Jun 16 12:19 |
oiaohm | And its lack of effectiveness in a lot of places. | Jun 16 12:19 |
Np237 | then you should despise Python more | Jun 16 12:19 |
Np237 | it uses more RAM for the same job | Jun 16 12:19 |
Np237 | my technical concern with mono would be startup time, not memory usage | Jun 16 12:19 |
oiaohm | Startup time is lack of effectiveness in lot of areas. | Jun 16 12:20 |
Np237 | it’s lack of effectiveness in initializing the VM | Jun 16 12:21 |
Np237 | I’ve seen worse issues… | Jun 16 12:21 |
oiaohm | Why use a VM. | Jun 16 12:21 |
Np237 | … | Jun 16 12:21 |
oiaohm | MS form uses a form of AOT that first run is slow secound run is fast because its cached. | Jun 16 12:21 |
Np237 | oiaohm: I hope you’re just as prone as criticizing Perl and Python, then | Jun 16 12:22 |
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Np237 | they do the *exact* same thing | Jun 16 12:22 |
Np237 | actually there’s no technical difference between a VM and an interpreter | Jun 16 12:23 |
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oiaohm | Better integration with native libs can reduce you overheads. Python one of the side projects I support has a converter to C++ underdevelopment. | Jun 16 12:24 |
oiaohm | Perl has a convert to c for a reason. | Jun 16 12:24 |
oiaohm | I know of no OS kernel that really has the means intergrate with a jit to allow memory releases of on fly generated code in case of memory shortage. If groups want to stick the the jit path they really need to address this. | Jun 16 12:27 |
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oiaohm | Simple fact Np237 Linux kernel was design to mange the native binaries it runs well. MS use of AOT in there .net engine allows the Windows kernel to better manage the .net applications it runs. | Jun 16 12:30 |
Np237 | you know that this problem is already solved in the simplest way | Jun 16 12:31 |
Np237 | faster CPUs, more RAM, more swap | Jun 16 12:31 |
oiaohm | LOL | Jun 16 12:31 |
oiaohm | Where have you been. | Jun 16 12:31 |
oiaohm | Low end devices are basically 8 year old tech Np237 | Jun 16 12:32 |
oiaohm | The world has changed you can no longer depend on that Np237 | Jun 16 12:33 |
oiaohm | Correcting design of mono and java can deal with problem at the cost of diskspace. Not ideal. If you don't want to cost diskspace altering kernel is the only way. | Jun 16 12:34 |
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oiaohm | Besides vala from gnome is design to use a syntax very close to C# yet it requires no interface runtime. It uses the standard C runtimes of gnome. | Jun 16 12:38 |
splosion | http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/dont-like-mono-try-vala.html | Jun 16 12:43 |
splosion | "Mono and C# have a lot of really cool applications right now: Tomboy, F-Spot, and Banshee. If these were forked and rewritten in the C#-like Vala, we could see greater performance and silence the anti-Mono crowd. Sounds like heaven, eh? OK, I can dream, can't I?" | Jun 16 12:44 |
splosion | there you go | Jun 16 12:44 |
splosion | shit, time for a physics exam. bummer! | Jun 16 12:44 |
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kentma | oiaohm: mono would need to keep pace with MS's runtime. Anyone with any gumption would surely recognise that if C# ever became popular, the first thing MS would do would be to have "hidden" APIs which only they know of, and ensure that apps ran "better on windows". | Jun 16 12:58 |
oiaohm | kentma I don't need to use that to pull mono apart. | Jun 16 13:01 |
oiaohm | Mono techincally fall flat on it face without the ideas of hidden APIs. | Jun 16 13:02 |
oiaohm | Java has the same problems as .net. Vala is one of the few things showing a true solution. | Jun 16 13:03 |
MinceR | dropping some napalm on redmond would be a true solution. | Jun 16 13:05 |
oiaohm | Why do we need to do that. They seam to be doing a good job of napalming themselves it would be a waste of good napalm. | Jun 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | http://vimeo.com/5137477 If you want to see a good example of using a scripting language to control a application interface. | Jun 16 13:11 |
MinceR | they're doing it too slowly. | Jun 16 13:12 |
MinceR | damage keeps being caused to everyone while they agonize. | Jun 16 13:12 |
oiaohm | Art of war MinceR | Jun 16 13:13 |
schestowitz | I'll do some news links now... | Jun 16 13:14 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Case Study: The Harms of Mono < http://ping.fm/HpnIh > | Jun 16 13:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] IXWebhosting. Extremely poor Python support, and extremely poor information management too! http://preview.tinyurl.com/nvtza3 | Jun 16 13:17 | |
Omar871 | schestowitz: Amazing how some shills out there turn the Mono debate into a personal issue between them and BN, while the whole FOSS community is concerned about it. | Jun 16 13:19 |
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schestowitz | Omar871: yes, it's a known strategy | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | Assign the problem to one place | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | Then cr*p on that place | Jun 16 13:21 |
Np237 | Omar871: no, only a minority of vocal people raise their imaginary concerns | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | And pretend Mono opposers are killers, trolls, etc. | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | It was done to daemonise others things like ODF, Linux... | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | Like the whole Reiser thing | Jun 16 13:21 |
schestowitz | Np237: not true | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Let me explain | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Some people in GNOME expressed concerns 5+ years ago | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Groklaw has been a critic for ages | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Mononono | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | It came from there, AFAIK | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Then there's discussion in mailing lists | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | RMS | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | All that /before/ BN even existed | Jun 16 13:22 |
Np237 | and since there was nothing serious behind these concerns, the GNOME people moved on | Jun 16 13:22 |
schestowitz | Then, the deal changed it for the worse | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | More Mono, patent covenants, SL | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | Np237: maybe, but the Novell deal woke people up | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | It continues to show advancement of MS as a std | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | See http://ping.fm/HpnIh | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | it's from this morning | Jun 16 13:23 |
schestowitz | it shows you Microsoft using Mono to migrate people away from Linux | Jun 16 13:24 |
schestowitz | Np237: the funniest thing to see is people who think I'm against FOSS | Jun 16 13:24 |
schestowitz | Ignoring the very obvious. But that spiel comes from Mono folks typically. | Jun 16 13:24 |
oiaohm | Np237: I like that statement. Then why is the vala project still alive. Lot of the bothered gnome developers have taken the path. Let it live for now. Design something better to replace it for good. | Jun 16 13:24 |
schestowitz | Daemonise opposition, pretend the problem is then eliminated | Jun 16 13:24 |
MinceR | opposition & | Jun 16 13:25 |
*MinceR has just daemonized the opposition. | Jun 16 13:25 | |
MinceR | </stupidpun> | Jun 16 13:25 |
Np237 | schestowitz: in the country where I live, the exact rhetoric you are using is very used by right-wing extremists | Jun 16 13:26 |
Np237 | ’cause you know, they are daemonised, so that proves they are right | Jun 16 13:26 |
oiaohm | LOl | Jun 16 13:27 |
MinceR | Np237: hitler used the exact same characters you are using! | Jun 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | Np237: you love using old troll arguements. | Jun 16 13:27 |
Np237 | oiaohm: well, stop using so poor reasoning if you want serious discussion | Jun 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | The issue is not if we are deamonized. | Jun 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | Is there fact behind what we are saying. | Jun 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | Lot of our annoyance is simple case of not being able to get straight answers out of the mono camp. | Jun 16 13:29 |
oiaohm | Also getting answers when investaged are not backed up with fact from the mono camp as well. | Jun 16 13:29 |
MinceR | Np237: who is using poor reasoning again? | Jun 16 13:29 |
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Np237 | MinceR: “OMG MICRO$HIT WANTS US TO DIE” | Jun 16 13:30 |
oiaohm | No Np237 | Jun 16 13:30 |
MinceR | Np237: well duh, ballmer said it's war | Jun 16 13:30 |
MinceR | Np237: sometimes you might want to read a bit more than official m$ propaganda | Jun 16 13:30 |
oiaohm | Even using Linux kernel do like knowing the patent status of different sections. | Jun 16 13:31 |
MinceR | their internal mail has confirmed some suspicions. | Jun 16 13:31 |
oiaohm | For embeded work its useful information Np237. | Jun 16 13:31 |
MinceR | then again, even their official propaganda tells a lot | Jun 16 13:31 |
MinceR | "linux is a cancer" and stuff like that | Jun 16 13:31 |
Np237 | so, you tell us to not use Mono because it violates patents from Microsoft | Jun 16 13:31 |
Eruaran | hello | Jun 16 13:32 |
Np237 | but we should use Linux although it violates patents from Microsoft | Jun 16 13:32 |
Np237 | wow | Jun 16 13:32 |
MinceR | Np237: linux doesn't violate patents from m$ | Jun 16 13:32 |
MinceR | Np237: show us which patents it violates. | Jun 16 13:32 |
MinceR | Np237: protip: ballmer didn't show them, only claimed that there are such. | Jun 16 13:32 |
Np237 | MinceR: show me which patents Mono violates them | Jun 16 13:32 |
MinceR | this should be suspicious to anyone but the most brainwashed m$ fanboy. | Jun 16 13:32 |
MinceR | Np237: someone will show you them, i don't have the list. | Jun 16 13:33 |
oiaohm | Np237: I will be simpler point me to a person who can answer the patent status of different parts of mono. | Jun 16 13:33 |
Eruaran | winforms... | Jun 16 13:33 |
oiaohm | This is our problem Np237 there is no one to answer the questions Np237 | Jun 16 13:34 |
Eruaran | Im with RMS on this | Jun 16 13:34 |
Np237 | oiaohm: this is completely stupid | Jun 16 13:34 |
Np237 | oiaohm: this is the case for 99% of free software then | Jun 16 13:34 |
Np237 | there are stupid software patents about *everything* | Jun 16 13:34 |
Eruaran | All large software projects inevitably violate some stupid patent somebody got that shouldn't have | Jun 16 13:34 |
Np237 | geez, cursor blinking used to be patented | Jun 16 13:34 |
Eruaran | But that does not mean you should deliberately stick your head in the lions jaws | Jun 16 13:34 |
Eruaran | Mono licensing is questionable at best | Jun 16 13:35 |
Np237 | Moonlight licensing is questionable | Jun 16 13:35 |
Np237 | there is absolutely no question with Mono licensing | Jun 16 13:35 |
Eruaran | Oh really | Jun 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | There is a difference in case of Linux kernel. If I want to know patent status from all code submiters ask on mailing list get answer if they have or have not patents in that area. Np237 | Jun 16 13:36 |
Eruaran | Is that why nobody can get any answers to their questions ? | Jun 16 13:36 |
Np237 | oiaohm: do you really think it is possible for them to know all patents that have been submitted in that area? | Jun 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | Novell and MS both work on joint projects with each other. Asking MS directly they don't answer either. | Jun 16 13:36 |
Np237 | Eruaran: nobody is forced to answer irrelevant or stupid questions | Jun 16 13:36 |
Eruaran | In other words | Jun 16 13:37 |
oiaohm | Simple problem here people who designed the spec does not answer questions | Jun 16 13:37 |
Eruaran | You can't answer the questions people are answering | Jun 16 13:37 |
Eruaran | So instead you insult people dismissively | Jun 16 13:37 |
oiaohm | Any other spec you are using. Ask the designer if they have patent and were they answer. | Jun 16 13:37 |
Np237 | Eruaran: no, I don’t fucking care of those questions | Jun 16 13:37 |
Eruaran | Obviously | Jun 16 13:37 |
Np237 | Eruaran: tell me why I should answer them | Jun 16 13:37 |
Eruaran | You're the one pushing Mono here | Jun 16 13:37 |
oiaohm | Np237: our problem is simply lack of clear answers Np237 | Jun 16 13:38 |
Np237 | Eruaran: because otherwise a bunch of trolls will feed my blog with roflable comments? | Jun 16 13:38 |
Np237 | oiaohm: who cares about your “problem”? | Jun 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | There was a past problem with this called mp3. | Jun 16 13:38 |
Eruaran | On what terms can I license the use of "IP" that Microsoft will claim that exists in Mono implementations ? | Jun 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | Once bitting twice shy. | Jun 16 13:38 |
Eruaran | You want to know who cares ? | Jun 16 13:38 |
Eruaran | My customers for a start. | Jun 16 13:38 |
MinceR | Np237: most free software wasn't aggressively pushed by m$ | Jun 16 13:38 |
MinceR | Np237: mono is suspect at the very least. | Jun 16 13:38 |
Np237 | MinceR: ROFL | Jun 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | MP3 had a submrine patent on it. | Jun 16 13:39 |
Np237 | MinceR: Mono is pushed aggressively by Microsoft? | Jun 16 13:39 |
MinceR | Np237: yes, via novell | Jun 16 13:39 |
Eruaran | guys | Jun 16 13:39 |
Np237 | MinceR: please, read what you wrote, it’s incredibly funny | Jun 16 13:39 |
oiaohm | Once people started using it did patent holder apply patent aggressively. | Jun 16 13:39 |
Eruaran | I had a long chat with a lawyer friend who is also a client of ours about Mono | Jun 16 13:39 |
MinceR | Np237: or do you think that the novell/m$ patent fud deal is benign? | Jun 16 13:39 |
Eruaran | She spelled it out very simply | Jun 16 13:39 |
Np237 | MinceR: it’s just the Novell lawyers covering up their asses | Jun 16 13:39 |
MinceR | Np237: how much do you believe novell is independent from m$ currently? | Jun 16 13:39 |
Eruaran | If terms are unclear - its a trap. | Jun 16 13:39 |
Np237 | MinceR: just like some companies gave money to the SCO trolls | Jun 16 13:39 |
oiaohm | Np237: Simple fact track recode of mp3 as a standard tells us that a standard that is not open with patent status should not be trusted. | Jun 16 13:40 |
MinceR | Np237: covering from a threat that's very obviously a lie? at the cost of losing customers? | Jun 16 13:40 |
MinceR | Np237: a company that was supposed to be one of the leading linux distributors? | Jun 16 13:40 |
Np237 | MinceR: which customers are you talking about? | Jun 16 13:40 |
oiaohm | Do we have to be idiots and not learn from history Np237? | Jun 16 13:40 |
MinceR | Np237: the customers of suse | Jun 16 13:40 |
Np237 | MinceR: do you think they give a shit of your opinion? | Jun 16 13:40 |
Np237 | MinceR: do you think more than 0.01% of the SuSE users care of that? | Jun 16 13:41 |
MinceR | Np237: well, apparently suse had lost business so i'd say they agreed | Jun 16 13:41 |
oiaohm | Np237: Should be desreguard the lesson of mp3 standards and patents? | Jun 16 13:41 |
Np237 | oiaohm: certainly not. But we should fight software patents, not accept them as a threat. | Jun 16 13:41 |
oiaohm | Good then you should be against the .net standard. | Jun 16 13:42 |
Np237 | oiaohm: by backing out Mono because of patent claims, you’re doing the game of IBM and Microsoft | Jun 16 13:42 |
oiaohm | Because it has the same issue the mp3 standard had. | Jun 16 13:42 |
MinceR | Np237: and until we defeat sw patents, we should just gladly put ourselves at risk by accepting an obvious trap from m$/novell? | Jun 16 13:42 |
MinceR | there's only one party that can possibly benefit from that. | Jun 16 13:42 |
oiaohm | Failure to block .net due to information around the standard being missing is only walking into another mp3 problem on a larger scale. | Jun 16 13:43 |
Np237 | (actually you’re more doing the game of IBM, Microsoft has a very small patent folio compared to them) | Jun 16 13:43 |
Eruaran | Every line of code written to Microsoft 'standards' is a small victory for Microsoft. | Jun 16 13:43 |
oiaohm | Simple problem mono is not defendable if you learn from history Np237 | Jun 16 13:44 |
oiaohm | Mono is not defendable on design. | Jun 16 13:44 |
oiaohm | All the mono support are go at is trying to create cloud of question marks to hide there problems. | Jun 16 13:44 |
Np237 | geez, you live completely in your own world | Jun 16 13:45 |
Np237 | well, at least it is consistent | Jun 16 13:45 |
MinceR | yes, it's called "reality" | Jun 16 13:45 |
Eruaran | What does anyone need Mono for ? | Jun 16 13:46 |
Omar871 | Eruaran: Agreed. | Jun 16 13:46 |
MinceR | yes, it tends to have that advantage over the dream world m$ fanboys live in. | Jun 16 13:46 |
Np237 | but in your world, everything that is said which is not in agreement with you is said by a Microsoft employee | Jun 16 13:46 |
oiaohm | Its called having a legal background in software acquirement Np237. | Jun 16 13:46 |
Np237 | Eruaran: why do you care of people needing Mono? | Jun 16 13:46 |
Eruaran | Who benefits from the promotion and proliferation of Mono ? | Jun 16 13:46 |
Omar871 | Np237: Or a Fanboi.. Like you seem to be.. | Jun 16 13:46 |
Np237 | Eruaran: the fact *you* don’t need doesn’t tell anything for anyone else | Jun 16 13:46 |
Np237 | HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHA | Jun 16 13:47 |
Eruaran | Well ? | Jun 16 13:47 |
Np237 | please don’t make me laugh out loud in my desk | Jun 16 13:47 |
MinceR | Np237: protip: pretending you've won an argument doesn't automatically make it so. | Jun 16 13:47 |
Eruaran | Who needs it ? Who benefits from it ? | Jun 16 13:47 |
oiaohm | You don't make legal problems disappear by redirecting. | Jun 16 13:47 |
Np237 | Eruaran: why do you care? | Jun 16 13:47 |
Eruaran | I'm asking a question | Jun 16 13:47 |
MinceR | Np237: so that's the third time you've ignored that question. | Jun 16 13:47 |
Eruaran | If you want to push Mono then surely you can answer these questions | Jun 16 13:48 |
Np237 | Eruaran: I don’t want to push Mono | Jun 16 13:48 |
Omar871 | Np237: Because he's part of the community, genius.. | Jun 16 13:48 |
Omar871 | Np237: Just like anyone else here. | Jun 16 13:48 |
oiaohm | Some of the redirects are down right stupid like saying com patents apply to open office. If you do your homework UNO that people say is com predates com existing. | Jun 16 13:48 |
Eruaran | It sure looks like you do | Jun 16 13:48 |
Np237 | Omar871: oh right, so because he feels like a part of the “community”, it entitles him to have answers to any stupid question he might ask? | Jun 16 13:49 |
Omar871 | Np237: Then stop friggin' defending it for God's sake.. | Jun 16 13:49 |
Eruaran | Why are these questions 'stupid' ? | Jun 16 13:49 |
MinceR | Np237: you mean we should just accept what you say as The Only Truth and shouldn't ask questions? :> | Jun 16 13:49 |
Np237 | Omar871: so there are only two camps, right? | Jun 16 13:49 |
MinceR | i guess that's how things work in the cult of m$ | Jun 16 13:49 |
Omar871 | Np237: So, every question that doesn't make sense to you, is stupid? | Jun 16 13:49 |
Np237 | Omar871: one can be with you, or with the enemy | Jun 16 13:49 |
Np237 | Omar871: no | Jun 16 13:50 |
oiaohm | Np237: Do I not have a valid case against the use of mono? | Jun 16 13:50 |
Np237 | Omar871: this question makes sense to me, and the sense is that the person asking it is stupid | Jun 16 13:50 |
MinceR | Np237: no, one can also be confused or ignorant. | Jun 16 13:50 |
Np237 | oiaohm: even if you had, you are not entitled to tell other people what they should do | Jun 16 13:51 |
Eruaran | If I'm offering PC's pre-installed with Ubuntu to our customers and there is anything in there Microsoft can make an IP claim on, who do you think Microsoft will come after ? | Jun 16 13:51 |
oiaohm | If I have a valid case you have no right to say I cannot express my case either Np237 | Jun 16 13:51 |
oiaohm | That is your problem answer question do I have a valid case Np237. | Jun 16 13:51 |
Np237 | oiaohm: I don’t have to answer your questoin | Jun 16 13:51 |
Np237 | question | Jun 16 13:51 |
Omar871 | Np237: Well, if it concerns the overall benefit of the whole community, then it's a MUST. | Jun 16 13:52 |
oiaohm | You having be questioning our selections. | Jun 16 13:52 |
Np237 | Omar871: the overall benefit of the community is to shut up its toxic elements like you | Jun 16 13:52 |
oiaohm | If you want to question expect to be questioned Np237. | Jun 16 13:52 |
Np237 | not all people are able to take insults like I do | Jun 16 13:52 |
Eruaran | What insults ?' | Jun 16 13:53 |
oiaohm | All I can guess is you would have to say yes to a valid case Np237. | Jun 16 13:53 |
Omar871 | Np237: Just like driving a car. You are free to speed as much as you want if you are alone. But in the middle of a crowded city, you have no right to exceed the speed limit. | Jun 16 13:53 |
oiaohm | So meaning you really don't have the right to tell us to shut up Np237. | Jun 16 13:53 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you don’t have any valid case, you don’t have anything to say | Jun 16 13:54 |
Np237 | the only thing you do is agitate red tissues | Jun 16 13:54 |
Omar871 | Np237: And neither do you my friend. | Jun 16 13:54 |
Np237 | Omar871: no, but I develop free software | Jun 16 13:54 |
Np237 | Omar871: and if I choose to base it on Mono, that’s my choice | Jun 16 13:54 |
Np237 | not yours | Jun 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | Provide a valid case then you must be able to disprove submirne patents existing on .net | Jun 16 13:54 |
Np237 | oiaohm: that’s not how things work | Jun 16 13:55 |
Np237 | even legally | Jun 16 13:55 |
Omar871 | Np237: Well, unless you're the only one developing Free Software, I fail to see how this is something to brag about. | Jun 16 13:55 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you have to prove your patent is valid, not the opposite | Jun 16 13:55 |
Eruaran | I'm sure Red Hat's lawyers treat the licensing and IP issues that surround Mono more seriously than you do. | Jun 16 13:55 |
Np237 | Eruaran: yeah sure, RH treat them seriously while Novell does not | Jun 16 13:55 |
Np237 | oh wait… | Jun 16 13:55 |
oiaohm | You must disprove submirne patent existance by the design of the standard of .net to prove the lesson of mp3 should not apply. | Jun 16 13:55 |
Omar871 | Np237: Yes, it's not our choice, but when the users start getting hurt out of Mono, then it's not yours either. | Jun 16 13:56 |
Eruaran | And we treat them seriously as well | Jun 16 13:56 |
Np237 | is it just because the RH decision was freetard-proof? | Jun 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | The you can prove that Np237 or you cannot. | Jun 16 13:56 |
Eruaran | The company I work for is an OEM | Jun 16 13:56 |
Np237 | Omar871: users are not forced to use our software | Jun 16 13:56 |
Np237 | Omar871: if you want software without Mono, GO FUCKING DEVELOP IT | Jun 16 13:56 |
Omar871 | Np237: Regardless. | Jun 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | My issue against .net and mono is based on the .mp3 lession Np237 | Jun 16 13:56 |
Eruaran | Do you want us to pre-install your software on our computers ? | Jun 16 13:56 |
Np237 | and leave us at peace | Jun 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | Can you disarm it Np237. | Jun 16 13:57 |
Np237 | Eruaran: I won’t hold a gun to force you to install it on your computer | Jun 16 13:57 |
oiaohm | You are fast to claim I don't have a case. Np237 | Jun 16 13:57 |
oiaohm | To claim I don't have a case you must be able to disprove it Np237. | Jun 16 13:57 |
Np237 | oiaohm: the MP3 case is a very good example of RH taking completely stupid decisions | Jun 16 13:57 |
Eruaran | Np237: I assure you, if your software is dependant on Mono, we wont, and neither will many OEMS. | Jun 16 13:57 |
Np237 | oiaohm: no. Unless you can prove it, you don’t have a case. | Jun 16 13:58 |
Eruaran | We've got better things to do. | Jun 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | I can prove that MS will not answer question on what patents apply. | Jun 16 13:58 |
Np237 | Eruaran: sure, as if OEMs had time to read your FUD | Jun 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | Exactly the same as what lead up to the mp3 problem Np237 | Jun 16 13:58 |
Omar871 | Np237: And unless you can disprove it, you have no right to claim it's not a case. | Jun 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | So lesson from history Np237 | Jun 16 13:58 |
Eruaran | You're not listening are you | Jun 16 13:58 |
Eruaran | We are an OEM | Jun 16 13:58 |
Eruaran | We're the one's in the firing line when Microsoft comes making IP claims | Jun 16 13:59 |
Omar871 | Eruaran: Of course he's not, man. He's friggin' brainwashed. :D | Jun 16 13:59 |
oiaohm | So yes I have information to back my case that the mp3 history should apply Np237 | Jun 16 13:59 |
Np237 | oiaohm: yeah, so historically, Fraunhoffer threatened to sue people for their patents on MP3 without proving it, and everyone paid them or abandoned MP3 | Jun 16 13:59 |
Np237 | oiaohm: what does it tell us? It tells us that bluff works much better than anything else | Jun 16 13:59 |
oiaohm | MP3 was not the only encode format at the time. | Jun 16 14:00 |
oiaohm | There were others with a known patent status. | Jun 16 14:00 |
Np237 | oiaohm: so what? They could have imagined patents applying to other technologies | Jun 16 14:00 |
Np237 | “known patent status” | Jun 16 14:00 |
oiaohm | Issue of Fraunhoffer could have been avoided. | Jun 16 14:00 |
Np237 | “known patent status”… | Jun 16 14:00 |
Np237 | BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA | Jun 16 14:00 |
Np237 | there is no such thing as a known patent status | Jun 16 14:01 |
oiaohm | There is. | Jun 16 14:01 |
Np237 | the very idea of patents is to keep everyone in a grey area, all the time | Jun 16 14:01 |
Np237 | you are absolutely pathetic | Jun 16 14:01 |
schestowitz | OK, links posted: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/palm-pre-gpl-incompliant/ | Jun 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | IBM mastered the art of creating known patent status a long time ago. | Jun 16 14:02 |
Omar871 | Np237: Oh please Dracula! Don't suck my blood! | Jun 16 14:02 |
Np237 | oiaohm: no, IBM mastered the art of having so many patents that *nobody* wants to fuck with them | Jun 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | Called creating a patent in such a way there is no way to build a new patent ontop of it. | Jun 16 14:02 |
Eruaran | Perhaps you need to spend some time learning about various patent systems around the world. And stop whining about other people insulting you while you call others 'pathetic'. | Jun 16 14:02 |
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oiaohm | Anyone who does must licence the under patent that requires the over patent to be released without charge. | Jun 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | Known patent status. | Jun 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | And under the same conditions. | Jun 16 14:04 |
oiaohm | So there is such thing as known patent status Np237. | Jun 16 14:04 |
schestowitz | Np237: try not to use the F* word | Jun 16 14:04 |
Np237 | oiaohm: do you actually KNOW what is a patent? | Jun 16 14:04 |
Omar871 | schestowitz: Exactly, thank. | Jun 16 14:04 |
Np237 | ’coz it doesn’t look like you do | Jun 16 14:04 |
oiaohm | Second method is to let the standard to get too old to be patented any more. Also creates known patent status. | Jun 16 14:05 |
Omar871 | Np237: It makes you sound even dumber than you already are. | Jun 16 14:05 |
Np237 | Omar871: thanks | Jun 16 14:05 |
Omar871 | Np237: Welcome. | Jun 16 14:06 |
schestowitz | It makes us look less credible | Jun 16 14:07 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I don’t think it is possible | Jun 16 14:07 |
schestowitz | Then there's folks like Shiells [sic] who say we make death threatd | Jun 16 14:07 |
oiaohm | OIN patents are based on the IBM design. To create a patent on top of a patent you need to licence the patent you are building on top of Np237. | Jun 16 14:07 |
schestowitz | And zealots like "Fink" who provoke and then claim they have something to do with us because they left some comments | Jun 16 14:07 |
schestowitz | OIN IS IBM in some ways | Jun 16 14:08 |
schestowitz | Look at their protfolio | Jun 16 14:08 |
schestowitz | It's IBM + some other companies | Jun 16 14:08 |
schestowitz | But IBM is the genesis | Jun 16 14:08 |
schestowitz | FFII says so | Jun 16 14:08 |
Np237 | oiaohm: if only things were so simple, sure, there could be such a thing as “known patent status“ | Jun 16 14:08 |
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schestowitz | People love shouting "OIN!" whenever the subject of patents come up | Jun 16 14:08 |
schestowitz | but companies in OIN are not even against software patents | Jun 16 14:09 |
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schestowitz | They just try to create a sort of corss-licensing ecosystem for Linux | Jun 16 14:09 |
oiaohm | To use OIN patents you must agree not to apply patents against open source. In case of IBM created standards you must agree to use the patents that any patent you create cannot block other users of the patent. | Jun 16 14:09 |
schestowitz | Debian too needs to recognise this | Jun 16 14:09 |
oiaohm | and standard. | Jun 16 14:09 |
schestowitz | They'll sell their "eddemnified" IBM mainframe or whatever | Jun 16 14:09 |
schestowitz | And say Debian is no Red Hat and there's no 'protection', whatever... | Jun 16 14:09 |
schestowitz | *indemnified | Jun 16 14:10 |
Np237 | schestowitz: our policy is to ignore all patent threats that aren’t clearly identified | Jun 16 14:11 |
oiaohm | Np237: idea that the patent system is complex keeps people from understanding how the licencing of patents can be used to block issues. | Jun 16 14:12 |
Omar871 | Np237: Until they do get clearly identified, and then it's too late for us to retreat, because we would have already fell in the trap? Is that what you're saying? | Jun 16 14:12 |
Np237 | Omar871: here you go again | Jun 16 14:12 |
Np237 | Omar871: future threats are included in identified patent threats, you know | Jun 16 14:13 |
Np237 | Omar871: but since there is no such thing about Mono… | Jun 16 14:13 |
oiaohm | Same was said about mp3 Np237 | Jun 16 14:13 |
oiaohm | have you learnt nothing Np237. | Jun 16 14:13 |
Np237 | no | Jun 16 14:13 |
oiaohm | Yes it was. | Jun 16 14:13 |
Np237 | oiaohm: we never included MP3 encoders | Jun 16 14:13 |
Np237 | patent claims about MP3 decoders are a joke | Jun 16 14:13 |
Np237 | only RH bought them | Jun 16 14:14 |
Np237 | now everyone can have fun of the distro without MP3 playback | Jun 16 14:14 |
Omar871 | BRB---> Lunch | Jun 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | Np237: so that is your defence. | Jun 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | Since no other distribution was threated with legal action over them. | Jun 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | Its expected that RH would be different. | Jun 16 14:16 |
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oiaohm | Again another lets redirect around problem and insult someone Np237 | Jun 16 14:16 |
splosion | This just in: I suck at physics | Jun 16 14:16 |
splosion | You lot still arguing? dear me | Jun 16 14:17 |
oiaohm | They never listen. I always warn them there is no way to win. History backs my line. | Jun 16 14:20 |
Np237 | oiaohm: my “defense” (if you like to call it so) is that we cannot have serious consideration for any patent claims, except the most obvious ones | Jun 16 14:24 |
Np237 | because ALL packages we ship have to violate some stupid patents | Jun 16 14:24 |
Np237 | it is not possible to treat patents as intellectual property, because they are not | Jun 16 14:24 |
Np237 | patents are weapons | Jun 16 14:24 |
Np237 | weapons with which companies attack each other | Jun 16 14:25 |
splosion | There's a difference between accidentally violating some bullshit patent and deliberately going ahead and doing it | Jun 16 14:25 |
Np237 | splosion: there is no patent that is deliberately violated by shipping Mono | Jun 16 14:25 |
MinceR | there's a difference between a patent from a random company maybe lurking in a non-essential package and making a distro depend on a patent that was put there on purpose by m$/novell | Jun 16 14:25 |
oiaohm | To be correct there is a lot of software that cannot violate valid patents Np237. | Jun 16 14:25 |
Np237 | MinceR: there is no such thing as a distro “depending” on a patent | Jun 16 14:26 |
oiaohm | The priorart clause of patents Np237. | Jun 16 14:26 |
Np237 | oiaohm: right, software that wasn’t updated for 20 years | Jun 16 14:26 |
MinceR | Np237: well, what would you call the default install depending on a package that infringes on a patent? | Jun 16 14:26 |
oiaohm | Or is older 2 older than any patent trying to be applied to it. | Jun 16 14:26 |
oiaohm | ie prior art. | Jun 16 14:27 |
Np237 | MinceR: what does it change from having the same software on the CD? | Jun 16 14:27 |
oiaohm | Lot of patents cannot apply. | Jun 16 14:27 |
oiaohm | Its not that hard to be patent safe. | Jun 16 14:27 |
splosion | The mono bitching would disappear overnight if Microsoft offered all distributions an unlimited, irrevocable covenant not to sue and to distribute the stuff. That would be pretty sweet | Jun 16 14:27 |
schestowitz | Np237: the patent holder matters | Jun 16 14:27 |
Np237 | MinceR: even further: the only patents you pretend that Mono violates are about Winforms | Jun 16 14:27 |
MinceR | Np237: it's more difficult to remove | Jun 16 14:27 |
schestowitz | Mcirosoft wants to destroy Linux | Jun 16 14:28 |
Np237 | MinceR: and nothing in GNOME depends on Winforms | Jun 16 14:28 |
schestowitz | Other companies know the PR issue | Jun 16 14:28 |
schestowitz | Mozilla recognises this too | Jun 16 14:28 |
MinceR | Np237: not really, i "pretend" it also violates patents about JIT, iirc | Jun 16 14:28 |
schestowitz | http://www.mail-archive.com/foundation-list%40gnome.org/msg02681.html | Jun 16 14:28 |
schestowitz | Richard Stallman: "Indeed, every large program implements lots of ideas that are patented. Indeed, there's no way to avoid this danger. But that's no reason to put our head inside Microsoft's jaws." | Jun 16 14:28 |
Np237 | schestowitz: what is the point of quoting someone who lost his mind | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | A lot of companies can coexist with Linux | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | Microsoft can't | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | All its money from from Windows and Office | Jun 16 14:29 |
Np237 | schestowitz: may I recall you that RMS considers invariant sections as free? | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | So it wants to replace that with patent revenue | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | Np237: Well, it figures | Jun 16 14:29 |
schestowitz | You think RMS is insane | Jun 16 14:29 |
splosion | if Microsoft had offered all Linux distributions a covenant that promised they wouldn't sue at all ever, instead of some secretive, time-limited, money-laundering job, BN probably wouldn't exist | Jun 16 14:30 |
Np237 | splosion: why would they do that? | Jun 16 14:30 |
splosion | If you want to help FOSS, that's how you do it | Jun 16 14:30 |
Np237 | why would *any company* do that? | Jun 16 14:31 |
splosion | Google did with Wave | Jun 16 14:31 |
Np237 | Google doesn’t make money on patents | Jun 16 14:31 |
Np237 | they make money with your personal data | Jun 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | Also items like the Linux kernel is hard to touch deeply with a patent attack. Because it is heavily patented under an agreement to us those patents against open source. | Jun 16 14:31 |
splosion | Google want Wave to be used by everyone and everyone. If Microsoft want their Net stuff to run on all systems, they'd offer the same | Jun 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | Opps left out not. | Jun 16 14:32 |
splosion | s/everyone/anyone | Jun 16 14:32 |
splosion | depends how you want to make money. Patent trolling vs actually doing good business | Jun 16 14:32 |
oiaohm | Lack of information on .net is very much putting your month in the lions jaws even worse what size the lion is. If it was only a lion cub it not a big problem. A simple visit to a site to get a mp3 licence will tell you want patents they want to apply on you. | Jun 16 14:34 |
oiaohm | Same with dvd and blueray decoding. | Jun 16 14:34 |
oiaohm | Thinking that patents are public documents there is no reason for a standard writer who is out to do no harm to keep them secret. | Jun 16 14:34 |
oiaohm | MS is the standard writer of .net. | Jun 16 14:35 |
oiaohm | History tells us something Np237. A standard writer who keeps there patents secrect on a standard are a threat. | Jun 16 14:36 |
Np237 | oiaohm: erm… what? | Jun 16 14:37 |
Np237 has lost his mind and thinks mono is not a trap. | Jun 16 14:37 | |
Np237 | oiaohm: you really don’t know what a patent is, do you? | Jun 16 14:38 |
oiaohm | Every standard that the stardard writer has kept there patents hidden. The standard writter has used those patents to attack in time. | Jun 16 14:38 |
oiaohm | That is a historic fact Np237. | Jun 16 14:39 |
Np237 | the *whole point* of a patent is that it is not secret | Jun 16 14:39 |
oiaohm | Exactly so there is no reason not to declare in documentation around standard what patents are used. | Jun 16 14:39 |
oiaohm | Unless you are planing to use those patents as weapons. | Jun 16 14:40 |
oiaohm | And you don't want anyone working around the patents. | Jun 16 14:40 |
oiaohm | So a threat. | Jun 16 14:40 |
oiaohm | History says that will turn into real action at some time. | Jun 16 14:41 |
Ask M$ about that one. They seem to think that they can threaten people with patents without telling them which patents are violated. | Jun 16 14:41 | |
In effect, they have secret patents. | Jun 16 14:41 | |
In reality, they have nothing. | Jun 16 14:42 | |
Especially since Biski | Jun 16 14:42 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Debian is Not Including Mono by Default, Yet < http://ping.fm/logZf > | Jun 16 14:42 | |
splosion | Those mystery hundreds of patents the Linux kernel supposedly violates would eventually get written out of the system if they were ever publicly disclosed. People made FAT patches almost immediately, for instance. It is in the patent holder's best interest to keep them secret and threaten people with them, and occaisonally win a few NDA licensing agreements. | Jun 16 14:43 |
oiaohm | Basically Np237 you are going against what the history of patent usage tells us. Np237 | Jun 16 14:43 |
splosion | immediately after TomTom* | Jun 16 14:43 |
schestowitz | twitter: yes, I have a post on that | Jun 16 14:43 |
schestowitz | MS and patents | Jun 16 14:43 |
schestowitz | Last resort | Jun 16 14:43 |
schestowitz | Didn't work for Unisys | Jun 16 14:43 |
Np237 | oiaohm: you are surrendering to the patent insanity, I don’t | Jun 16 14:44 |
Np237 | that’s it | Jun 16 14:44 |
oiaohm | This is not surrendering. I have learnt from history. | Jun 16 14:45 |
oiaohm | Patent also cannot be applied to cases of proven independant development. | Jun 16 14:45 |
oiaohm | Since mono developers are using .net standard they don't have independant development defence either. | Jun 16 14:46 |
"(03:45:45 AM) schestowitz: So basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NET" Shestowitz, misspelled "rams .NET down the throats of various distros by astroturf and smear attacks." | Jun 16 14:47 | |
schestowitz | Np237: help us fight the patent insanity | Jun 16 14:47 |
oiaohm | There are big problems using a standard of undefined patent status. Np237 | Jun 16 14:47 |
schestowitz | You'll be better off working with peers against it | Jun 16 14:47 |
schestowitz | Others in pharma fight the same fight | Jun 16 14:47 |
oiaohm | Your defensive options are reduced Np237 | Jun 16 14:47 |
schestowitz | So patent unrest unites forces across disciplines | Jun 16 14:47 |
oiaohm | Ie prior art and independant development are your two biggest defence keys. | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | twitter: yeah, something like thst | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | *that | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | But Novell helps them | Jun 16 14:48 |
oiaohm | Mono has neither. | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | Novell employees going to Reddit for example to 'evangelise' Mono | Jun 16 14:48 |
Np237 | \o/ the troll made itwire \o/ | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | Who's a troll | Jun 16 14:48 |
schestowitz | ? | Jun 16 14:48 |
Np237 | Varghese being as condescending as usual of course | Jun 16 14:49 |
Np237 | schestowitz: Robert Millan of course | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | Troll one one who posts only to disrupt | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | Troll!=someone you don't like | Jun 16 14:49 |
Np237 | I know | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | Some people call "terrorism" everything they disagree with | Jun 16 14:49 |
oiaohm | Np237: Ok what is better use tech you have options to defend. | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | Like public protests | Jun 16 14:49 |
Bob is in a very bad position -> (03:25:06 AM) IsBob: and now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my management | Jun 16 14:49 | |
oiaohm | Or use something like mono that you don't have options to defend Np237 | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | Np237: don't use the word troll | Jun 16 14:49 |
Np237 | Robert Millan blogged about something he did not understand, just because his plan was not going on as planned | Jun 16 14:49 |
schestowitz | It's a debate | Jun 16 14:49 |
Np237 | his point was only to disrupt | Jun 16 14:50 |
schestowitz | There are no trolls in technical debates unless they aggravate for the sake of it | Jun 16 14:50 |
Np237 | his troll made osnews, /. and itwire | Jun 16 14:50 |
Np237 | with ZERO accurate information in each of the news | Jun 16 14:50 |
Np237 | good job | Jun 16 14:50 |
schestowitz | The one with obscene posts is more likely to be the troll. | Jun 16 14:50 |
schestowitz | Personal attacks, f* word, ego trips, etc. | Jun 16 14:50 |
schestowitz | Quotes gourmet | Jun 16 14:51 |
schestowitz | Are you here to pick some new quotes? | Jun 16 14:51 |
Np237 | how would you call someone who starts a discussion with no contents, in the only hope that everyone talks about it? | Jun 16 14:51 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I admit that I thought of it, but it would be too easy | Jun 16 14:51 |
oiaohm | Np237: You will find most open source software is more patent defendable than mono. Even wine and samba are more defendable. | Jun 16 14:52 |
Np237 | schestowitz: I’ll just point to the log when it’s online | Jun 16 14:52 |
Np237 defines self, "someone who starts a discussion with no contents, in the only hope that everyone talks about it?" | Jun 16 14:54 | |
*twitter ignores Np237, three hours of that kind of trash is more than enough. | Jun 16 14:54 | |
Np237 | :( | Jun 16 14:54 |
Np237 | admittedly, twitter is not the most refreshing | Jun 16 14:55 |
oiaohm | I think its funny that you classed me as surrending to patents. | Jun 16 14:55 |
Np237 | oiaohm: that’s just what you explained | Jun 16 14:55 |
oiaohm | What is the point of setting up a patent trap if no one walks in. | Jun 16 14:56 |
oiaohm | What MS has done with the .net standard is the normal formation of a patent trap. | Jun 16 14:56 |
oiaohm | That has been repeated thousands of times. | Jun 16 14:56 |
oiaohm | Is there not options to avoid trap? | Jun 16 14:57 |
Omar871 | Np237: If this is surrendering, then what do you call avoidance? | Jun 16 14:58 |
oiaohm | Patent holder making proft from traps makes others think creating patent traps is a good idea. | Jun 16 14:58 |
oiaohm | I just don't believe in repeating the cycles that make the patent system a poorly documented mess. | Jun 16 14:59 |
oiaohm | What you describe is surrending to the fact you will be done over by patents threw your own stupitity Np237. | Jun 16 15:00 |
Np237 | oiaohm: someday, I might have problems with MS patents and Mono | Jun 16 15:01 |
Np237 | or with IBM patents and whatever other package in the distro | Jun 16 15:01 |
Np237 | or with stupid French legislation and P2P software | Jun 16 15:01 |
Np237 | I can live with that | Jun 16 15:01 |
oiaohm | How many times do companies have to create patent traps before people learn not to walk in. | Jun 16 15:01 |
oiaohm | You are simply playing into the cycle Np237. | Jun 16 15:02 |
Np237 | oiaohm: if the fear of patent traps wins over the advances in software developments, the terrorists have already won | Jun 16 15:02 |
oiaohm | Avoiding patent traps does not stop development. | Jun 16 15:02 |
Np237 | oiaohm: just like the actual terrorists won by killing more people through fear than they did by actual bombings | Jun 16 15:02 |
oiaohm | Is there any reason that the resouces that went into mono that could be locked up by patents could not have gone into designing something better and not at risk. | Jun 16 15:03 |
oiaohm | And defendable by priorart and independant development. | Jun 16 15:03 |
oiaohm | Answer there is no good reason. | Jun 16 15:03 |
MinceR | Np237: if m$ can suddenly pop up with provable claims that the entirety of the gnu/linux infringes on patents they own, the terrorists might win a battle | Jun 16 15:04 |
MinceR | and there's no reason to give them that. | Jun 16 15:04 |
oiaohm | What you are doing is simply going into a war zone without body armor with .net Np237 | Jun 16 15:05 |
:) David Gerard, "Ich bien ine Tehranier" -> (02:24:15 AM) BNc: (notice) [davidgerard] RT @nzmrmn change yr Twitter settings to show GMT +03:30 Tehran as your timezone, change home city to Tehran to confuse the Iranian censors. | Jun 16 15:05 | |
MinceR | no, he's telling _us_ to go into the war zone without armor | Jun 16 15:05 |
oiaohm | Its a insane thing todo when you have the option of taking body armor. | Jun 16 15:05 |
MinceR | (or alternatively calling us fools for not doing so) | Jun 16 15:05 |
oiaohm | Avoiding patent traps really causes no long term damage. Not avoiding them on the other hand can mean many thousands of man hours could end up usless Np237 | Jun 16 15:07 |
oiaohm | Wasting resources is not good for the future. | Jun 16 15:08 |
Using mono strengthen M$'s position and will strengthen their ability to promote software patents. If people really do chose to use that inferior tech, M$ will jump up and down and say, "See, our IP was so valuable that no one could resist using it and software patents were a good idea all along." | Jun 16 15:08 | |
Because mono is such an obvious trap, it should be avoided to help eliminate software patents. | Jun 16 15:09 | |
MinceR | it also gives them the ability to influence decisions made regarding free software. | Jun 16 15:09 |
oiaohm | Big one is effecting performance of software in MS favor. | Jun 16 15:09 |
Only Novell and M$ people are promoting that trash anyway. | Jun 16 15:09 | |
oiaohm | There is nothing good coming from .net | Jun 16 15:10 |
Claiming that BN is the only entity with the common sense to see the mono trap, is the purest of hypocrisy by Novell and M$ people. | Jun 16 15:10 | |
I'm glad to see Debian has not lost it's collective mind. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/debian-not-including-mono/ | Jun 16 15:11 | |
I did not think they had or ever would. | Jun 16 15:12 | |
oiaohm | Besides I spoke about mono patent threat before I even knew about boycott novell. | Jun 16 15:12 |
MinceR | good news. | Jun 16 15:12 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Cost Cutting and Device Xenophobia at Microsoft < http://ping.fm/Jv7A8 > | Jun 16 15:12 | |
oiaohm | Boycott novell is not the source of my point of view. You should have notice its different to the line roy uses Np237. | Jun 16 15:13 |
Np237 | hahahahahaha that’s so frigging funny | Jun 16 15:13 |
Np237 | now after the itwire article everyone says “oh cool, finally Debian is not shipping Mono” | Jun 16 15:13 |
Np237 | note that in the meantime NOTHING STILL HAPPENED ! | Jun 16 15:13 |
schestowitz | True | Jun 16 15:13 |
schestowitz | Nothing happened | Jun 16 15:13 |
Np237 | all that fuss over nothing is so incredible | Jun 16 15:14 |
schestowitz | But it's not final, either | Jun 16 15:14 |
schestowitz | Np237: it is | Jun 16 15:14 |
oiaohm | Nothing getting so much press coverage. | Jun 16 15:14 |
Np237 | that’s where I think Robert is mastering the art of trolling | Jun 16 15:14 |
schestowitz | Np237: let's pay attention to Red Hat | Jun 16 15:14 |
oiaohm | I think not Np237 | Jun 16 15:14 |
schestowitz | They are looking into mono licnesing | Jun 16 15:14 |
oiaohm | Debian final result on licening will be interesting. | Jun 16 15:15 |
Np237 | the fun thing being, itwire interviewed the project leader | Jun 16 15:15 |
Np237 | and the project leader has *zero* word to say about this ! | Jun 16 15:15 |
oiaohm | Attention effects outcomes Np237. | Jun 16 15:15 |
Np237 | the only ones having a say being the GNOME team (who basically agree with me) and the installer team (who don’t seem to give a shit about this) | Jun 16 15:16 |
oiaohm | MS has got press for less. | Jun 16 15:16 |
Np237 | indeed | Jun 16 15:16 |
Np237 | maybe it’s a sign that Debian is mature | Jun 16 15:16 |
oiaohm | 10 years ago this would not even made the news. | Jun 16 15:16 |
oiaohm | Its a sign of a change Np237 | Jun 16 15:17 |
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oiaohm | If debian does throw mono out it would basically be the kiss of death to mono as a platform. And if mono is kiss of death there is no more really .net cross platform. | Jun 16 15:19 |
oiaohm | So there is interest of course Np237 | Jun 16 15:20 |
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splosion | ARM-books are doomed! http://blogs.zdnet.com/computers/?p=747 | Jun 16 15:27 |
splosion | The arguments follows thus: No Windows 7 on ARM = fail | Jun 16 15:28 |
MinceR | oh noes | Jun 16 15:28 |
MinceR | whatever shall we do without vista7? | Jun 16 15:28 |
MinceR | oh noes, mobile phones use ARM too, so they're doomed! | Jun 16 15:29 |
I predict Google will make Android work perfectly with all Google services, so "lack of flash support" will look like utter fud and lies. | Jun 16 15:29 | |
MinceR | which service uses flash besided youtube? for that, they could develop custom support in other ways | Jun 16 15:30 |
MinceR | s/ded/des/ | Jun 16 15:30 |
That will bury both Windows Mobil and Windows 7 on portable devices. | Jun 16 15:30 | |
Flash is used for Finance, maps and other services. | Jun 16 15:31 | |
Many of these things are already working with gnash, but not all. | Jun 16 15:31 | |
MinceR | right, finance uses it too | Jun 16 15:31 |
at least not all work on Lenny. | Jun 16 15:31 | |
MinceR | i didn't notice maps using it though | Jun 16 15:31 |
splosion | Froogle is rather neatly done, I must say | Jun 16 15:31 |
Street view uses flash. | Jun 16 15:31 | |
MinceR | ic | Jun 16 15:31 |
maps use flash, but it seems to work with gnash now. | Jun 16 15:32 | |
MinceR | in any case, in this case google controls both the server and the client so in theory they could find a way around using flash | Jun 16 15:32 |
exactly | Jun 16 15:32 | |
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and all gnu/linux is likely to reap the same rewards. | Jun 16 15:33 | |
M$ is killing themselves by fighting Google and iPod with their own sucky devices. The only reason to use Windows was "compatibilty" with cool devices. People put up with a second rate platform for sync. Now, Windows is the OS that does not work with anything cool. | Jun 16 15:35 | |
gotta run, bbl | Jun 16 15:36 | |
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splosion | hrmm. That does irk me. People say "Lunix will nevar be ready for the desktop because it doesn't support any peripherals lol it sucks thats why lol." Somewhat true, but it's hardly the fault of Linux. As it gets more popular, support will come. Things like the ARM books will help I reckons | Jun 16 15:38 |
MinceR | if linux wasn't ready for the desktop for reasons people keep claiming it isn't, then no os would be ready for the desktop either. | Jun 16 15:39 |
splosion | well sure. it's been ready for my desktop and most of the people in this room's desktops and millions of others for some time now | Jun 16 15:41 |
splosion | how many millions before some dipshit can declare it's ready? | Jun 16 15:41 |
MinceR | ever since red hat 7.0, it's been more ready for my desktop than anything else. | Jun 16 15:41 |
MinceR | splosion: m$ needs to lose its dominance, perhaps then they'll declare it is. if not, then m$ and crApple will have to die. | Jun 16 15:42 |
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MinceR | who knows, maybe even they'll say that some random *bsd is the only way. | Jun 16 15:43 |
MinceR | s/even/even then/ | Jun 16 15:43 |
MinceR | then again, they could stick to a dead platform | Jun 16 15:44 |
_Mutex_ | Hay all, duty BN Troll here :) But I would say, its the actual question of Linux ready for the desktop that should be in question, I think if it provides the functionality, and tools and performed that the USER requires, to be productive and the experience is adequate, then Linux is just as ready for the USER as any other OS, if it does what YOU NEED its ready, it if dose not its not, | Jun 16 15:44 |
splosion | MS's market dominance is because WIndows is installed on 99% of PCs sold in the world. Shit, if Debian's Hurd was the default OS on new PCs that would probably have the same usershare as Windows does now. | Jun 16 15:44 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: in that case, no OS is ready for the desktop and no OS will ever be | Jun 16 15:45 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: unless you're using a different definition of "USER" from the one i'm aware of. | Jun 16 15:45 |
_Mutex_ | its not an issue of market share, if it was BSD would be considered more successfull that Linux, as its only many more desktops than linux OSX) | Jun 16 15:45 |
_Mutex_ | any OS that does what you want is ready, | Jun 16 15:45 |
MinceR | by whose numbers? NPD? | Jun 16 15:45 |
MinceR | Net Applications? | Jun 16 15:45 |
MinceR | remember, the world isn't only the USA. | Jun 16 15:45 |
_Mutex_ | what is your definition of USER, Mine is someone who USES a computer, whats yours ?? | Jun 16 15:46 |
MinceR | well, i'm someone who uses a computer | Jun 16 15:46 |
MinceR | therefore i hereby proclaim gnu/linux to be ready for the desktop | Jun 16 15:46 |
_Mutex_ | obviously, as am I :) | Jun 16 15:46 |
MinceR | and i hereby proclaim windows and macos to be not ready for the desktop | Jun 16 15:46 |
_Mutex_ | so if what your using does what you need it to so ,, job done | Jun 16 15:47 |
_Mutex_ | what the percentage of OSX's around, I believe its about 10% correct me if im wrong, | Jun 16 15:47 |
MinceR | dunno | Jun 16 15:48 |
MinceR | i don't even know any reasonably sane methodology to measure installed base. | Jun 16 15:48 |
splosion | cripes. the news Opera looks amazing | Jun 16 15:48 |
splosion | -s | Jun 16 15:48 |
_Mutex_ | I was saying it does not matter, you dont use your computer because of popularity do you ?? I use mine because it does what I need. | Jun 16 15:49 |
MinceR | iirc it's usually said that osx and gnu/linux has the same share | Jun 16 15:49 |
MinceR | and usually usa-biased stats are used | Jun 16 15:49 |
MinceR | which are strongly biased towards crApple. | Jun 16 15:49 |
splosion | Firefox, Chrome and Safari are going to need to catch up to those features soon | Jun 16 15:49 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: i don't, though my experience does in part depend on popularity | Jun 16 15:49 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: because hw and app vendors decide whether to support a platform based on its market share. | Jun 16 15:50 |
MinceR | (or installed base) | Jun 16 15:50 |
_Mutex_ | do you choose your products and computing needs based on market share ?? so do you buy the most popular make of car just because its the most popular, | Jun 16 15:50 |
_Mutex_ | or do you buy a car that meets your needs ? | Jun 16 15:50 |
MinceR | i don't | Jun 16 15:50 |
MinceR | hw and application vendors do choose what to target partly based on that though | Jun 16 15:50 |
MinceR | which affects what is available to me | Jun 16 15:50 |
_Mutex_ | yes mabey that app vendors and hw are not the desktop, im sure car tyre makers make more tyres for popular brands than obscure ones, does not mean the obscure ones are worse, it may be a farrari, but its not as popular as a mazda. | Jun 16 15:52 |
_Mutex_ | but most certainly can be better and faster, and more desirable to car lovers | Jun 16 15:52 |
_Mutex_ | have low market share is nothing, its bears no relationship with quality, or lack of it. | Jun 16 15:53 |
_Mutex_ | sure accessories are harder to get, and parts harder to find, but you still get super performace, and lots of fun, and women (or men) depending on your preference :) | Jun 16 15:54 |
schestowitz | splosion: that anti-ARM slog was predictable | Jun 16 15:56 |
schestowitz | I think we can avoid feeding the talking points | Jun 16 15:57 |
_Mutex_ | who;s being anti_ARM ?? | Jun 16 15:57 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Novell and Xandros Are Promoting Windows, Again < http://ping.fm/lM3xQ > | Jun 16 15:57 | |
MinceR | _Mutex_: tyre makers target standard tyre sizes and types, not car brands | Jun 16 15:59 |
_Mutex_ | yes, but im sure you can get my point right ?? | Jun 16 16:00 |
MinceR | not really | Jun 16 16:00 |
MinceR | applications are hardly accessories | Jun 16 16:01 |
MinceR | neither is hardware | Jun 16 16:01 |
_Mutex_ | market share is not everything, farrai's have less market share but they are better than a mazda that have heaps of market share, | Jun 16 16:01 |
schestowitz | bbl | Jun 16 16:01 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: the use of cars doesn't depend on applications nor additional hardware | Jun 16 16:02 |
MinceR | a computer can't be built without hardware | Jun 16 16:02 |
MinceR | and it's mostly useless without applications | Jun 16 16:02 |
_Mutex_ | ok, then by you market share is important, and you would only use the most common items there, if you cant get what im talking about thats fine, but I did not think the comparison was that hard.. | Jun 16 16:03 |
_Mutex_ | so y ou saying linux does not have the applications that you need and want to use ? | Jun 16 16:03 |
MinceR | nope | Jun 16 16:03 |
MinceR | i'm saying that while my experience doesn't depend on market share, it does so indirectly | Jun 16 16:04 |
_Mutex_ | so it does have what you need, so what do you care about market share, ?? it does what YOU want, ,do you care about being popular, or doing what YOU want to do ? | Jun 16 16:04 |
MinceR | it would be more convenient for me if i could just take it for granted that any random (even chinese noname stuff) peripheral i buy will have a driver for it | Jun 16 16:04 |
MinceR | also, it would be more convenient for me if all the games i want to run would run on linux natively | Jun 16 16:05 |
MinceR | and these things do depend on market share | Jun 16 16:05 |
MinceR | because market share is what makes its creators _care_ | Jun 16 16:05 |
splosion | chicken, meet egg | Jun 16 16:05 |
MinceR | pretty much | Jun 16 16:05 |
_Mutex_ | you cant ensure that for any OS or hardware, but if it does not do what you want, you use something else, that is the price paid for not being as common and muck, but it (like farrai) does not mean its worse, just not as popular. | Jun 16 16:05 |
_Mutex_ | if popularity was everything, we would all be chinese and communist | Jun 16 16:06 |
_Mutex_ | or hindi | Jun 16 16:06 |
MinceR | sure, but if the market share was higher, i could easily ask how well it works and take it back to the shop and say it doesn't work with linux and they'd understand what i'm talking about | Jun 16 16:06 |
_Mutex_ | yes, thats true, just like you can take a mazda to most mechanics, but for your ferrari, you probably have to take it to a specialist. | Jun 16 16:07 |
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MinceR | your analogy doesn't work | Jun 16 16:08 |
*thenixedreport is now known as nixed | Jun 16 16:08 | |
nixed | Hello. | Jun 16 16:09 |
nixed | :) | Jun 16 16:09 |
MinceR | hay | Jun 16 16:09 |
MinceR | also, finding a ferrari specialist would still be a common task | Jun 16 16:09 |
nixed | I'm writing a response to the recent debate on LinuxToday in regards to Mono. | Jun 16 16:09 |
nixed | I figured I'd ask all of you for some input. | Jun 16 16:09 |
_Mutex_ | its relative, probably related with supply and demand, certainly not as common as your corner garage | Jun 16 16:09 |
nixed | :) | Jun 16 16:09 |
_Mutex_ | my input, mono is just a software package, sure it has it's origins from the proprietary world, but so does alot of other open source code, including Linux kernel, and many other apps that have been "opened", IMHO, its no big deal. But the fighting over it is quite destabilizing and IMO damaging to the movement. | Jun 16 16:12 |
nixed | I see. | Jun 16 16:14 |
nixed | What about the patent issue? | Jun 16 16:14 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: \o/ finally someone with his senses | Jun 16 16:15 |
splosion | My view on mono is that it probably won't turn out to be horrible, even if Microsoft use it to attack Linux or as a means to do the ol' EEE. I'm suspicious of the secret deal with Novell (if the patents are harmless, why haven't they been disclosed?), and generally I'm suspicious of Microsoft. I still don't think either of these things is enough to destroy | Jun 16 16:15 |
splosion | >>linux though | Jun 16 16:15 |
_Mutex_ | well like has happened in the past when (and IF) a patent issue arrises, FOSS will do what they always do, deal with it IF and WHEN it occures, that may be my removing or re-writing the offending code, and considering the sourse for mono is GPLv2 there is nothing stopping FOSS from re-writing any patent encoumbered code in the furture should (and IF) that should ever become a problem. | Jun 16 16:16 |
nixed | I do remember some suspicions in regards to Mono coming right after the deal Novell signed with Microsoft. | Jun 16 16:17 |
_Mutex_ | RMS approved and blessed Mono, the GPL has approved and blessed mono, and you have every ability to recitify any future problems. | Jun 16 16:17 |
_Mutex_ | But as it stands today there is no problems, so why create them ? | Jun 16 16:17 |
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_Mutex_ | but rejecting mono, and fighting it, considering its the GPL is in fact (IMO) an attack on FOSS and the GPL itself. | Jun 16 16:18 |
_Mutex_ | IF the GPL cannot give you the protection it states, thats a bigger problem than mono. | Jun 16 16:18 |
_Mutex_ | why do you want to dilute the GPL. | Jun 16 16:18 |
splosion | I know I keep bringing it up, but the patches people made the very moment the TomTom patents came to light is evidence that FOSS canand will work around patents if we need to. If the mystery Microsoft patents were revealed, I think they'd all be written out of Linux rather quickly | Jun 16 16:18 |
Np237 | better than that, Mono being GPLed gives patent protection against people using Mono technology to patent new things | Jun 16 16:19 |
splosion | GPL v# would be nicer | Jun 16 16:19 |
splosion | v3 even | Jun 16 16:19 |
_Mutex_ | splosion,, exactly | Jun 16 16:19 |
Np237 | for that matter, yes | Jun 16 16:19 |
_Mutex_ | its the same GPL as the Linux kernel, that should be good enough for FOSS to accept | Jun 16 16:19 |
_Mutex_ | Np yes exactly right | Jun 16 16:20 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: if we just sleep at the wheel, the "offending code" will be a huge amount | Jun 16 16:20 |
splosion | software patents are just a menance, and it's high time someone seriously made them all just fuck off so we can all stop arguing about them once and for all. | Jun 16 16:20 |
MinceR | Np237: mono isn't entirely gpled | Jun 16 16:20 |
MinceR | parts of it are under the MIT license | Jun 16 16:21 |
_Mutex_ | so dont sleep at the wheel, you cause accidents by doing that, you dont get anywhere by sleeping, | Jun 16 16:21 |
MinceR | which has no patent provisions | Jun 16 16:21 |
_Mutex_ | Yes, it is, fully GPL'd | Jun 16 16:21 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: yet you seem to advocate doing just that | Jun 16 16:21 |
_Mutex_ | Ive downloaed it, and ihave the licence right here if you like me to post it, but you can go to FOSS site and download the GPLv2 and its exactly word for word the same | Jun 16 16:21 |
nixed | Actually, I believe it's dual-licensed. | Jun 16 16:22 |
_Mutex_ | plus, Mono will allow thousands of windows programmers to cross develop and make available a huge amount of code for Linux, its a win win IMO | Jun 16 16:22 |
nixed | Under both the GPL and MIT license. | Jun 16 16:22 |
_Mutex_ | Doing what MinceR ? | Jun 16 16:22 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: if it's fully GPL-ed, i wonder what this is doing there >> http://anonsvn.mono-project.com/viewvc/trunk/Mono.Nat/LICENSE?view=markup | Jun 16 16:23 |
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_Mutex_ | did you actually read that license ?? if so whats wrong withit ?? | Jun 16 16:24 |
_Mutex_ | it says you can do anything with it, whats the problem ? | Jun 16 16:25 |
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MinceR | the problem is that "anything" includes redistribution without providing a patent license | Jun 16 16:26 |
MinceR | and guess what novell is doing | Jun 16 16:26 |
MinceR | and they protect _only_ their own suse customers via a "covenant not to sue" | Jun 16 16:26 |
_Mutex_ | so IF should such a problem occur, you do a tomtom on it, problem solved right ?? | Jun 16 16:27 |
_Mutex_ | until it does, whats the point in damaging the movement by the in fighting about something that may or may not be a problem some years in the future ? | Jun 16 16:28 |
MinceR | as if doing a tomtom was a good thing | Jun 16 16:29 |
MinceR | (what exactly do you mean by doing a tomtom anyway?) | Jun 16 16:30 |
nixed | They only settled out of court if memory serves, so no precedent was set. | Jun 16 16:30 |
MinceR | considering that m$/novell _wants_ to destroy the platform in question, that's not "if", it's "when" | Jun 16 16:30 |
neighborlee | free software..'usually' has NO SUCH clauses pinned to it.. | Jun 16 16:32 |
_Mutex_ | then just ignore anything that is or might at sometime in the future that MAY POSSIBLY raise a patent issue, but if you go that way, that means you would not use the Linux Kernel (it might have breached a patent !!) or any other app that MIGHT one day be found to be in violation of a patent, so the end result, if you apply fairly your Mono guidelines you would not use any FOSS software for fear that sometime in the future there will be a patent | Jun 16 16:32 |
_Mutex_ | me | Jun 16 16:32 |
neighborlee | what about that NOT being free..dont you understand ?? | Jun 16 16:32 |
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neighborlee | all this over a couple..non often used apps | Jun 16 16:32 |
neighborlee | palease | Jun 16 16:33 |
nixed | I have used F-Spot in all fairness. | Jun 16 16:33 |
_Mutex_ | exactly neighborlee | Jun 16 16:33 |
neighborlee | Thankyou Gnotes | Jun 16 16:33 |
nixed | Tomboy on the other hand. | Jun 16 16:33 |
nixed | I personally have no use for. | Jun 16 16:33 |
nixed | I'll just open a text editor if I want to write a quick note. | Jun 16 16:33 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: that's not MAY POSSIBLY, it's WILL UNLESS M$ DIES FIRST | Jun 16 16:33 |
nixed | Especially if it has multiple tabs. | Jun 16 16:33 |
_Mutex_ | and you know that how, and how do you know 100% for sure Linux Kernel does not possibly have some issues ?? | Jun 16 16:34 |
MinceR | and surely they won't port other apps to mono if these succeed | Jun 16 16:34 |
neighborlee | nixed, exactly what ive been doing | Jun 16 16:34 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, has linus if your so worried | Jun 16 16:34 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: the linux kernel has no code in it that was deliberately designed and injected for this purpose | Jun 16 16:34 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, but at least..its made by someone, that doesn't think linus is a cancer ;) | Jun 16 16:35 |
neighborlee | us/us | Jun 16 16:35 |
neighborlee | gah | Jun 16 16:35 |
_Mutex_ | and thats the core issue, its not mono as such its what it represents to FOSS, | Jun 16 16:35 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, but at least..its made by someone, that doesn't think linux is a cancer ;) | Jun 16 16:35 |
_Mutex_ | thats whats so damaging to FOSS as it looks biased and one eyed. | Jun 16 16:35 |
_Mutex_ | So its not the code, its not patents , its not GPL its because its from someone you dont like, | Jun 16 16:36 |
neighborlee | that and we have iton GOOD word ,,that it is indeed not free.just as groklaw | Jun 16 16:36 |
neighborlee | and dont use the tired excuse PJ doesn't know her stuff | Jun 16 16:36 |
_Mutex_ | so what happens when someone starts to think about opening up their code, will they look at this and say "what if FOSS dont like me", and they will think twice and not do it. | Jun 16 16:36 |
_Mutex_ | Im sure PJ is a fine legal secretary | Jun 16 16:37 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, why do you descend,,just like Jo, into FUd tactics ? | Jun 16 16:37 |
_Mutex_ | was a fine one | Jun 16 16:37 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, again..more fud | Jun 16 16:37 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, why bother..dont you have better things to do ;) | Jun 16 16:37 |
_Mutex_ | explain to me please how that is FUD ? | Jun 16 16:37 |
nixed | I take it that _Mutex_ is pro-mono? | Jun 16 16:37 |
_Mutex_ | Im pro GPL how about you ? | Jun 16 16:38 |
nixed | I'm simply curious. | Jun 16 16:38 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, IF you had read any of groklaw articles..you would know she had 'legal backup'..or dont you read those articles with much seriousness | Jun 16 16:38 |
_Mutex_ | are you anti GPL ? | Jun 16 16:38 |
neighborlee | im pro people..and keeping them safe from harm | Jun 16 16:38 |
neighborlee | usually people that depend on other 'free' things | Jun 16 16:39 |
nixed | So what does being pro/anti-gpl have to do with the question I just asked you? | Jun 16 16:39 |
nixed | :) | Jun 16 16:39 |
_Mutex_ | I can get legal backup too, I was just saying what she is, legal secretary is not a legal expert, | Jun 16 16:39 |
neighborlee | fine get it | Jun 16 16:39 |
_Mutex_ | what does being pro or anti mono have to do with it ? | Jun 16 16:39 |
nixed | I'm just curious, that's all. | Jun 16 16:39 |
_Mutex_ | so you can be judgmental ? | Jun 16 16:39 |
nixed | I'm trying to get multiple perspectives on the issue at hand. | Jun 16 16:39 |
nixed | So if you turned out to like Mono, I would already have one perspective down (and a few more to look into). | Jun 16 16:40 |
nixed | Why, would you like me to be one sided? ;) | Jun 16 16:40 |
_Mutex_ | nixed thats why im providing an alternative perspective, and trying to be a bit unbiased and you know balanced. | Jun 16 16:40 |
_Mutex_ | I would hope you are factural and balanced | Jun 16 16:41 |
_Mutex_ | But I would say BN chat room may not be a great place to "normally" find a unbiased and balanced opinion, thats why im trying to provide a touch of balance and logic to the argument. | Jun 16 16:42 |
nixed | That's fine. | Jun 16 16:42 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Fielding annoyed by "scientists" disagreeing with him http://is.gd/13yci (inspired by @jeamland) | Jun 16 16:42 | |
_Mutex_ | if we all got on here and just agreed with each other what would be the point of being here, it would just be a Linux love fest, (thats fine but not if youwant a balanced argument, debate) | Jun 16 16:43 |
nixed | Apparently, the Mono channel is like... dead. | Jun 16 16:44 |
nixed | Nobody is responding to me at all. | Jun 16 16:44 |
nixed | *sigh* | Jun 16 16:44 |
nixed | I can't be accused of not trying then. | Jun 16 16:45 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, from someone you dont like, < that is what im referring to , calling FUD...its not that I dont like THEM,,its the way they do business..im neutral on until they show their hand, and lately their hand is stained...so unlike Jo it would be nice to stop hurling fud is the point here. ;) | Jun 16 16:45 |
_Mutex_ | good | Jun 16 16:45 |
neighborlee | YOu cant ask to be taken seriously , when you talk like that..just like those on BN who use words like F*** and bull***, are not to be taken seriously | Jun 16 16:45 |
_Mutex_ | what its not that you dont like them, but you dont like how they do things, (its the same thing) | Jun 16 16:45 |
neighborlee | wrong | Jun 16 16:46 |
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_Mutex_ | but if mono came from Red hat what would you think then ?? probably that it was great | Jun 16 16:46 |
neighborlee | its not personal | Jun 16 16:46 |
neighborlee | its moral | Jun 16 16:46 |
neighborlee | I could be fine with tomorow,,if they were moral | Jun 16 16:46 |
neighborlee | linux isnt a cancer | Jun 16 16:47 |
neighborlee | period | Jun 16 16:47 |
_Mutex_ | do it is you dont like them, you dont like them so much that you will even reject RMS's comments and the GPL | Jun 16 16:47 |
neighborlee | now your n oteven making sense | Jun 16 16:47 |
neighborlee | and spouting more fud ;) | Jun 16 16:47 |
neighborlee | its akin to hate. | Jun 16 16:48 |
_Mutex_ | im surprised you say your not really anti-MS and you spit venom at them whenever you can, questioning morals and so on, im sure you would not do that for an App RH released ! | Jun 16 16:48 |
neighborlee | and we know where that leads dont we | Jun 16 16:48 |
neighborlee | ;) | Jun 16 16:48 |
_Mutex_ | what FUD ? Am I sprouting ? | Jun 16 16:48 |
_Mutex_ | what is it that I am saying that scares you so ? | Jun 16 16:48 |
neighborlee | hmm more fud.. | Jun 16 16:48 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: if mono came from RH then the patent issues would be clear | Jun 16 16:49 |
_Mutex_ | ifyou cant tell me, its you generating the fud | Jun 16 16:49 |
neighborlee | scares...interesting choice of words | Jun 16 16:49 |
_Mutex_ | oh guess what you cant tell me | Jun 16 16:49 |
neighborlee | fear,,uncertainly..doubt | Jun 16 16:49 |
neighborlee | F_U_D | Jun 16 16:49 |
_Mutex_ | fear = scared | Jun 16 16:49 |
MinceR | also, we could trust the direction of the project | Jun 16 16:49 |
_Mutex_ | gee I would never have guessed what FUD stands for !! | Jun 16 16:49 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, well now you dont have to keep ASKING anymore | Jun 16 16:49 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 16 16:49 |
_Mutex_ | so again, back up your claims, ?? tell me (and everyone else) what im saying that scares you so ? | Jun 16 16:49 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: they’re scared to realize that all their fight for is meaningless | Jun 16 16:50 |
_Mutex_ | mabey they are scared that my balanced arguments actually makes some sense but does not gell with their pre-conceived beliefes and ingrained hatred for all things MS , but im just guessing. | Jun 16 16:51 |
_Mutex_ | mabey someone will set me straight as to why I scare them so. | Jun 16 16:51 |
Np237 | well first of all you don’t think Microsoft is the greatest incarnation of evil on Earth | Jun 16 16:52 |
Np237 | so that means you must have been somehow corrupted by them | Jun 16 16:52 |
Np237 | which is scary | Jun 16 16:52 |
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_Mutex_ | no i dont, hitler and starlin and pol pot and a few others were evil, but company that writes software no, mabey enrol, or union carbide, | Jun 16 16:53 |
balzac | [GNU POWAH] | Jun 16 16:53 |
_Mutex_ | or some of the diamond mines in africa, are quite evil, or the gold miners in new guinea using arcenic are evil destroy entire villages. | Jun 16 16:54 |
balzac | let's leave the superstitious language by the way-side | Jun 16 16:54 |
balzac | I only use it for rhetorical effect when describing someone really awful like Dick Cheney | Jun 16 16:54 |
balzac | I wouldn't apply it to Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer | Jun 16 16:55 |
balzac | Although Ballmer could play a villain in a lot of movies | Jun 16 16:55 |
_Mutex_ | superstitious language would be to say the devil was evil, | Jun 16 16:55 |
balzac | "evil" is an inherently superstitious word | Jun 16 16:55 |
balzac | it implies "supernatural" corruption of the "spirit" | Jun 16 16:55 |
_Mutex_ | mabey true, and I agree it certainly does not apply here | Jun 16 16:55 |
balzac | it applies to some of the software | Jun 16 16:56 |
_Mutex_ | thats why I said the devil, but anyway offtopic :) | Jun 16 16:56 |
neighborlee | apparantly so ;)( | Jun 16 16:56 |
balzac | i find it "evil" when I had to make a form using MS Word. The "voodoo" for controlling document structure in Word can be "evil" at times | Jun 16 16:56 |
_Mutex_ | I cant see how a thing can be evil, (except that car in that movie) | Jun 16 16:56 |
neighborlee | maybe < true ;) | Jun 16 16:57 |
MinceR | evil is supernatural now? | Jun 16 16:57 |
balzac | in my opinion, it's a concept rooted in belief in supernatural | Jun 16 16:57 |
MinceR | so you believe supernatural forces are necessary for malice to exist? | Jun 16 16:57 |
balzac | malice is a different word from evil | Jun 16 16:58 |
MinceR | i think human nature is more than enough for that | Jun 16 16:58 |
_Mutex_ | I think many people need to get over MS, and just get on with their lives, but evil, no, | Jun 16 16:58 |
neighborlee | some might say it gives some a scapegoat for their own actions... | Jun 16 16:58 |
neighborlee | or in this case a place to hide when confronted | Jun 16 16:58 |
neighborlee | a diversion point. | Jun 16 16:58 |
MinceR | balzac: they're synonyms | Jun 16 16:58 |
balzac | I can't get over MS. They have so much revenue and market share, and a swath of it has my name on it | Jun 16 16:58 |
balzac | Disruptech is entitled to a seat at the table | Jun 16 16:59 |
_Mutex_ | your government is alot of revenue and a monolopy too, | Jun 16 16:59 |
_Mutex_ | and you pay them lots | Jun 16 16:59 |
balzac | microsoft is a company | Jun 16 16:59 |
_Mutex_ | yes it is, | Jun 16 16:59 |
balzac | not my government | Jun 16 16:59 |
MinceR | they're closer than you'd think | Jun 16 17:00 |
Np237 | balzac: if you want someone to hate, there are companies that do far worse | Jun 16 17:00 |
Np237 | balzac: take Pfizer for example | Jun 16 17:00 |
balzac | Np237: someone to hate? | Jun 16 17:00 |
balzac | is that considered a human necessity? | Jun 16 17:00 |
_Mutex_ | it makes products people buy and use, and it employes people, allowing them to you know LIVE, it pays taxes enabling the government to exist, and provides products and services that many people are totally happy with. | Jun 16 17:00 |
Np237 | for some people here, clearly | Jun 16 17:00 |
neighborlee | balzac, just for fud'ers ;) | Jun 16 17:00 |
_Mutex_ | so whats the big deal with MS,, why the amazing fear that you display at the mear mention of MS | Jun 16 17:01 |
balzac | Np237: like the guy who said he wanted to smash me with a tire iron? | Jun 16 17:01 |
balzac | _Mutex_: it's that Microsoft is trying to take our freedom, carte blanche. | Jun 16 17:01 |
balzac | They are philosophically opposed to freedom for computer users. | Jun 16 17:01 |
_Mutex_ | Enron, union carbide, that ponsie scheme buy, thast what you say, I just dont see it, I see you are as free as you've always been, | Jun 16 17:02 |
_Mutex_ | no one is forcing you to use MS products, and you have an alternative, problem solved, (if there ever was one) | Jun 16 17:02 |
balzac | _Mutex_: I have some protection for my freedoms, thanks to the FSF and the GNU project | Jun 16 17:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Só tirei 19 da PAT :( | Jun 16 17:02 | |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, wrong | Jun 16 17:02 |
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_Mutex_ | Yes you do, so why do you want to damage the FSF by disregarding the GPL ? | Jun 16 17:03 |
balzac | Proprietary companies want to literally claim all innovation under software patent filings, then tax us. | Jun 16 17:03 |
_Mutex_ | and devalueing it ? | Jun 16 17:03 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, Ubuntu-..forces it..on us. | Jun 16 17:03 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, thankfullly fedora is coming around though.. | Jun 16 17:03 |
balzac | Let Microsoft give up on software patents and I'll change my attitude about Microsoft. | Jun 16 17:03 |
Np237 | neighborlee: which MS products are you talking about? | Jun 16 17:03 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 16 17:03 |
_Mutex_ | thats FUD, you saying they want to do things to hurt you, but you have a choice, so you are generating fear for no real reason except you dont like them. | Jun 16 17:03 |
balzac | I'll still want a piece of the action at their expense, but at least I won't be philosophically opposed to Microsoft | Jun 16 17:03 |
_Mutex_ | its the political smear campain, | Jun 16 17:03 |
trmanco | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-June/028347.html | Jun 16 17:04 |
_Mutex_ | dont like em diss em | Jun 16 17:04 |
Np237 | neighborlee: that’s the classical rhetoric here, Mono is a Microsoft product | Jun 16 17:04 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, why dont you just change your nick to who you really are Jo ;)( | Jun 16 17:04 |
balzac | guys. get real. | Jun 16 17:04 |
Np237 | that’s so friggin’ wrong | Jun 16 17:04 |
balzac | also, get a real OS. | Jun 16 17:04 |
neighborlee | F_U_D..you do it so well...really I nominate you for academy award | Jun 16 17:04 |
balzac | You're talking to the new IT honcho, so be nice. Some day you may be begging me for a job. | Jun 16 17:04 |
Np237 | Mono is one of the things Microsoft fears the most, it is coming to steal their customers on the most advanced technology they have | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | ]|GNU POWAH|[ | Jun 16 17:05 |
_Mutex_ | until you explain to me neighborlee why MS or I scare y ou so much I have to conclude you are generating FUD because you dont have any other viable alternative argument, | Jun 16 17:05 |
_Mutex_ | when in doubt call FUD right ?? | Jun 16 17:05 |
_Mutex_ | standard line ? | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | _Mutex_: don't try to make this into an emotional issue | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | it's not about feelings, it's about objective reality | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | Microsoft and software patents | Jun 16 17:05 |
_Mutex_ | exactly | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | GNU and freedom | Jun 16 17:05 |
balzac | that's what the struggle is about | Jun 16 17:06 |
Np237 | “In short, at the moment, Mono is very well-maintained in Ubuntu and there appears to be no significant cause for concern over its IP situation.” | Jun 16 17:06 |
Np237 | nothing to add | Jun 16 17:06 |
nixed | I read that it wouldn't be as big a deal if the Novell/Microsoft deal had never occured. | Jun 16 17:06 |
balzac | Np237: software patents | Jun 16 17:07 |
_Mutex_ | and if you think im generating fud, fine go ask richard stallman and ask his opinion on it, then call him out for FUD because he thinks its ok, | Jun 16 17:07 |
balzac | also, Microsoft attacked the integrity of the ISO | Jun 16 17:07 |
_Mutex_ | ofcourse not, if mono was from red hat, we would not be having this conversation at all | Jun 16 17:07 |
balzac | Microsoft is opposed to compliance with standards and has disproportionate influence in our government and governments around the world | Jun 16 17:08 |
balzac | Microsoft is just too big | Jun 16 17:08 |
_Mutex_ | thats fud, too big for what ? | Jun 16 17:08 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: but would Banshee be able to read MP3s? | Jun 16 17:08 |
balzac | It's like we're in an elevator and one of the passengers is bigger than the rest of us put together | Jun 16 17:08 |
_Mutex_ | to big to meet the markets needs ? | Jun 16 17:08 |
_Mutex_ | too big for you ? | Jun 16 17:08 |
balzac | you can't be so obese in an elevator | Jun 16 17:08 |
balzac | there's a weight limit, and the rest of us can't be pressed against the walls by your fat body | Jun 16 17:08 |
_Mutex_ | what are they "too big" for ? | Jun 16 17:08 |
Np237 | balzac: the elevator monopoly is from ThyssenKrupp and Otis, not Microsoft | Jun 16 17:09 |
balzac | apologies to anyone who is chubby | Jun 16 17:09 |
balzac | also, learn to love software and computers more | Jun 16 17:09 |
_Mutex_ | I wonder why you wont explain why being big is bad or evil ?? | Jun 16 17:09 |
splosion | is FUD just some catch-all term for "I don't believe that" and "I think those are lies" and "I doubt your honesty" now, or what? | Jun 16 17:09 |
balzac | Microsoft is not run by connisseurs of software | Jun 16 17:09 |
balzac | you can tell Microsoft is run by people for whom money is primary, not excellence in technology | Jun 16 17:10 |
splosion | "I don't like coffee." --- "That's fud. Plenty of people love coffee. " | Jun 16 17:10 |
Np237 | splosion: we’d be aware if this term was used by people understanding what it means | Jun 16 17:10 |
_Mutex_ | splosion its the term that means "I have no good counter argument to provide you, your probably right but Ill call FUD because thats all I got" | Jun 16 17:10 |
balzac | _Mutex_: when you're so big that you can overwhelm governments, you're too big for regulation | Jun 16 17:10 |
Np237 | balzac: how can you make such generalizations about such a large company? | Jun 16 17:10 |
balzac | Microsoft is too big for regulation | Jun 16 17:10 |
balzac | geez guys | Jun 16 17:11 |
balzac | open a history book | Jun 16 17:11 |
Np237 | balzac: obviously you don’t know of MS Research | Jun 16 17:11 |
balzac | ever heard of the game "monopoly"? | Jun 16 17:11 |
_Mutex_ | oh right thats why the EU wont touch MS,, (oh wait) !!!! | Jun 16 17:11 |
splosion | _Mutex_ and Np237: that's just FUD, plenty of people have counter-arguments to understanding what terms really mean and... err | Jun 16 17:11 |
balzac | want to look up a word? | Jun 16 17:11 |
Np237 | balzac: and are you mad or what? Microsoft is not, by far, the largest company in the world! | Jun 16 17:11 |
_Mutex_ | well provide them and we'll logically discuss them | Jun 16 17:11 |
Np237 | splosion: :) | Jun 16 17:11 |
balzac | read up on Teddy Roosevelt, the "trust breaker" if I remember my history classes in middle school accurately | Jun 16 17:11 |
balzac | Microsoft is dominating the consumer market for computers | Jun 16 17:12 |
_Mutex_ | and it not being able to be regulated is pure FUD, ask the US Govment, or EU or one of others out there | Jun 16 17:12 |
balzac | they're subsidizing, coercing and punishing hardware makers to withold drivers from FOSS developers | Jun 16 17:12 |
balzac | look, there's no easy way for MS to clear up their bad karma | Jun 16 17:13 |
balzac | they're going down like the Hindenberg | Jun 16 17:13 |
_Mutex_ | ok, provide proof of that claim, if not explain why that is not FUD ? | Jun 16 17:13 |
balzac | it's quite well documented | Jun 16 17:13 |
_Mutex_ | ok then you will have no problems finding it then | Jun 16 17:13 |
balzac | neither will you | Jun 16 17:13 |
_Mutex_ | I know they dont, I cant prove a negative, you have to backup your claims, or you are generating FUD | Jun 16 17:14 |
_Mutex_ | IF I make a claim I will support it with Links | Jun 16 17:14 |
_Mutex_ | so I dont play the FUD game | Jun 16 17:14 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, ive told you many times already..about my feelings on MS..I guess your so blinded by your unwillingness to see that clearly , that you keep missing my posts. | Jun 16 17:14 |
_Mutex_ | but Ill call you on it every time | Jun 16 17:14 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, really Jo has trained you well | Jun 16 17:14 |
Np237 | neighborlee: *feelings* | Jun 16 17:14 |
Np237 | you’re right | Jun 16 17:14 |
Np237 | you have nothing more than feelings | Jun 16 17:14 |
balzac | jo shields? | Jun 16 17:14 |
Np237 | but how about a bit of rational thought? | Jun 16 17:15 |
neighborlee | Np237, opinions, if that suits you better | Jun 16 17:15 |
balzac | neighborlee: why do you think jo shields trained _Mutex_ ? | Jun 16 17:15 |
neighborlee | isn't it obvious | Jun 16 17:15 |
_Mutex_ | I have yet to see you're explanation about what I said that was fud, oh yes, when you lack proof and get called on FUD you revert to personal attacks nice | Jun 16 17:15 |
neighborlee | personal attacks ..name it | Jun 16 17:15 |
balzac | not to me. I haven't read much from jo shields, other than the comment on BN which said (paraphrasing) "F_ck this and f_ck you!" | Jun 16 17:16 |
Np237 | neighborlee: what if Jo Shields did “train” him? | Jun 16 17:16 |
neighborlee | balzac, ah ok ic | Jun 16 17:16 |
_Mutex_ | ok now were degenerating to personal attacks, , by calling me Jo shields for example | Jun 16 17:16 |
balzac | we don't need to degenerate | Jun 16 17:16 |
Np237 | balzac: maybe you should read more then | Jun 16 17:16 |
_Mutex_ | im waiting for those links of proof, or your a FUDster | Jun 16 17:16 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, its a reference to someone that uses FUD and is abusive | Jun 16 17:16 |
balzac | bickering is better than making it personal | Jun 16 17:16 |
_Mutex_ | prove im FUDing !! | Jun 16 17:16 |
balzac | even if it's asinine and intellectually dishonest... | Jun 16 17:16 |
_Mutex_ | go on | Jun 16 17:16 |
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balzac | _Mutex_: breath | Jun 16 17:16 |
_Mutex_ | I dare you double dog dear | Jun 16 17:16 |
mib_ksz809 | open source hydrogen car http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8103106.stm | Jun 16 17:17 |
balzac | everyone here should remain aware of the futility of trying to convince each other | Jun 16 17:17 |
balzac | i'm not relying on convincing _Mutex_ of my point of view. | Jun 16 17:17 |
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balzac | it's kind of like a bunch of dogs barking | Jun 16 17:17 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: that’s how it works here. If you don’t agree with their unproved claims, you’re spreading FUD | Jun 16 17:17 |
Np237 | (whatever FUD may beà | Jun 16 17:17 |
Np237 | ) | Jun 16 17:17 |
_Mutex_ | thats why I tend to stick to the facts and statments I can support with facts if im called. | Jun 16 17:18 |
balzac | circumstances favor our dog pack, so the barking is only the background noise | Jun 16 17:18 |
_Mutex_ | if you state claims but refust to provie proof of your claims, i have to expect you are making it up. that is FUD | Jun 16 17:18 |
balzac | _Mutex_: in your mind, sure | Jun 16 17:18 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: no, that is lying | Jun 16 17:18 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, exactly..in YOUR mind | Jun 16 17:18 |
_Mutex_ | thats another term yes | Jun 16 17:18 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: FUD is a specific strategy | Jun 16 17:18 |
_Mutex_ | so im all too aware | Jun 16 17:19 |
Np237 | it’s not employed that much | Jun 16 17:19 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, in your mind..we hate MS..we hate GPL..gez next you will say I hated my mother | Jun 16 17:19 |
Np237 | neighborlee: I don’t know about your mother, but apparently you have a lot of hate to share | Jun 16 17:19 |
neighborlee | Np237, name one | Jun 16 17:19 |
neighborlee | I never said I hated MS..that was you guys (gals ?) | Jun 16 17:19 |
balzac | let's tone down the emotional content please | Jun 16 17:19 |
_Mutex_ | why are you making it personal neighborlee, who not just shoot me down with the truth and facts surly it would be much easier | Jun 16 17:19 |
balzac | how about a moratorium on emotionally descriptive language? | Jun 16 17:19 |
balzac | let's leave our feelings out of this | Jun 16 17:20 |
neighborlee | balzac, they aren't capable..yet..it would reallybe nice though ;)) | Jun 16 17:20 |
balzac | neighborlee: it's a classic way of avoiding objective reality to dwell on subjective experiences like personal feelings | Jun 16 17:21 |
neighborlee | balzac,you see that is how they play the game..you show proof and they just start name calling..like BN with Jo, eet, dan and a few others.. | Jun 16 17:21 |
neighborlee | balzac, yes I know | Jun 16 17:21 |
neighborlee | and its not working on me | Jun 16 17:21 |
_Mutex_ | thats why I dont do it and call neiborlee on it for doing it, | Jun 16 17:21 |
balzac | make the conversation revolve around emotional content, then wear down the opposition by emoting at them until they're emotionally exhausted | Jun 16 17:22 |
_Mutex_ | its not necessary, but shows a lack of a solid counter case | Jun 16 17:22 |
balzac | homey don't play dat | Jun 16 17:22 |
_Mutex_ | lets stick to the facts that can be proven please | Jun 16 17:22 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, fine..dispute groklaw | Jun 16 17:22 |
balzac | it's ok for _Mutex_ to dispute us here | Jun 16 17:23 |
neighborlee | it sure is | Jun 16 17:23 |
neighborlee | I welcome i t. | Jun 16 17:23 |
_Mutex_ | I have no argument with groklaw, I never go there, I just agree with Richard Stallman, is he wrong ? | Jun 16 17:23 |
neighborlee | please do- | Jun 16 17:23 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, you said groklaw is wrong..useless..so prove it. | Jun 16 17:23 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, I really want to know..we all do. | Jun 16 17:23 |
_Mutex_ | No, ive got no interested in a legal site run by a non-laywer, | Jun 16 17:24 |
_Mutex_ | thats clearly very biased | Jun 16 17:24 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, until you do.your argument is non valid | Jun 16 17:24 |
_Mutex_ | I prefer a more balanced approach | Jun 16 17:24 |
neighborlee | redirection then ? | Jun 16 17:24 |
nixed | _Mutex_, I've read Stallman on a mailing list saying that relying on Mono is dangerous. | Jun 16 17:24 |
_Mutex_ | not emotive or colored by personal beliefs | Jun 16 17:24 |
neighborlee | just like fud | Jun 16 17:24 |
neighborlee | nixed, exactly | Jun 16 17:24 |
neighborlee | yes..so go after stallman then if you wont deal with groklaw | Jun 16 17:25 |
neighborlee | or brian goldhoweverits spelled ;)) | Jun 16 17:25 |
balzac | well, stallman is busy | Jun 16 17:25 |
balzac | don't "go after" stallman | Jun 16 17:25 |
neighborlee | counter his arguement then ;) | Jun 16 17:26 |
balzac | you can email him, but please be sincere if you do, because he doesn't need his time wasted by intellectual dishonest | Jun 16 17:26 |
_Mutex_ | Im not going after anyone, im not for or agaist anything, and I dont really care, im just providing a unbiased opinion and a factual one, | Jun 16 17:26 |
neighborlee | debate the stallman point then.. | Jun 16 17:26 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, ok so you really dont care..so whats with all this hateful speech here | Jun 16 17:26 |
_Mutex_ | so you are not good enough to argue with me, so you just tell me to talk to someone else, way to debate a point !! | Jun 16 17:26 |
balzac | he doesn't even have a lot of patience for people who don't think clearly and communicate concisely | Jun 16 17:26 |
_Mutex_ | what hatefullspeach have I posted please show me | Jun 16 17:26 |
splosion | all we can really do is wait and see what happens when Novell's patent agreement runs out of gas. Who knows? nobody here does | Jun 16 17:26 |
_Mutex_ | im waiting ?? | Jun 16 17:27 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, I am still waiting for you to debate groklaw | Jun 16 17:27 |
neighborlee | and what brian said will also do nicely | Jun 16 17:28 |
balzac | neighborlee: which hateful speech from _Mutex_ ? | Jun 16 17:28 |
neighborlee | and what abourt ECMA revelation ? | Jun 16 17:28 |
_Mutex_ | dont hold your breath, im not going anywhere until someone here can back up their statements with you know FACTS !! | Jun 16 17:28 |
_Mutex_ | yes, please | Jun 16 17:28 |
_Mutex_ | what hatefull speech have I posted here ? | Jun 16 17:28 |
balzac | _Mutex_: i've got the goods, but I don't like to do your home work for you | Jun 16 17:28 |
neighborlee | balzac, its hateful to fud as he does..it trys to shine me in ways that are non truthful..what else should we call that | Jun 16 17:28 |
balzac | neighborlee: you're busted, comrade. | Jun 16 17:29 |
_Mutex_ | oh sure, its the "I know but im not telling" argument fine | Jun 16 17:29 |
balzac | you brought emotional terminology in again | Jun 16 17:29 |
_Mutex_ | its not argument at all then | Jun 16 17:29 |
neighborlee | http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hate | Jun 16 17:29 |
_Mutex_ | post what I have said that is either hate full or FUD PLEASE | Jun 16 17:29 |
balzac | yeah, but don't you think it's a good idea to keep the emoting to a minimum? | Jun 16 17:29 |
Np237 | _Mutex_: YOU DISAGREE WITH THEM! | Jun 16 17:29 |
_Mutex_ | yes | Jun 16 17:30 |
Np237 | that must be hate | Jun 16 17:30 |
balzac | or else we get the sobbing clowns from linsux.org in here | Jun 16 17:30 |
balzac | Np237: mind the caps | Jun 16 17:30 |
splosion | this is a pretty asinine conversation. sheesh | Jun 16 17:30 |
neighborlee | splosion, that it is. | Jun 16 17:30 |
balzac | too much raw emotion is conveyed by your use of caps | Jun 16 17:30 |
_Mutex_ | I guess not being "one of them" according to them, might be considered hatefull, but I dont think it is,, acually ITS NOT | Jun 16 17:30 |
neighborlee | and you guys wonder why..people dont respect you. | Jun 16 17:30 |
balzac | _Mutex_: let's avoid the emotional language | Jun 16 17:30 |
Np237 | I think I’m going to post the whole backlog to LHB, they’ll have fun for the next 10 years | Jun 16 17:30 |
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balzac | neighborlee: dishonesty is dishonesty | Jun 16 17:31 |
_Mutex_ | I respect unbiased debate based on facts, and common sense, what do you respect ?? | Jun 16 17:31 |
neighborlee | balzac, regarding... | Jun 16 17:31 |
balzac | in fairness, it's the microsoft advocates who would rather talk about feelings | Jun 16 17:31 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, the law..something you still refuse to deal with | Jun 16 17:32 |
_Mutex_ | ok what law ? | Jun 16 17:32 |
balzac | so don't feed that strategy by talking about feelings in a way which is intended to drain the energy from the conversation | Jun 16 17:32 |
neighborlee | Im fine with it..but I agreee sure it can drain a otherwise useful discussion | Jun 16 17:32 |
_Mutex_ | what law ? | Jun 16 17:33 |
_Mutex_ | or was that FUD ? | Jun 16 17:33 |
_Mutex_ | ill be polite "what law please" | Jun 16 17:33 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, it is not limited just to Novell as Mono is | Jun 16 17:34 |
_Mutex_ | What law, Please, I ask you in the most polite way possible to explain to me and everyone here what law you refer too ? | Jun 16 17:34 |
_Mutex_ | can you please answer the question | Jun 16 17:34 |
balzac | don't be excessively polite or it's passive aggressive | Jun 16 17:34 |
_Mutex_ | what freaking law ???? | Jun 16 17:35 |
neighborlee | So I read the covenant, and I found, despite my training and experience, that I couldn't fully understand it | Jun 16 17:35 |
balzac | god i love bugging people | Jun 16 17:35 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, my aren't you aggressive this morning ;) | Jun 16 17:35 |
balzac | _Mutex_: multiple punctuation is to emotional | Jun 16 17:35 |
balzac | keep it dry, guys | Jun 16 17:35 |
_Mutex_ | what law | Jun 16 17:35 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, you should find away to dispell that anger | Jun 16 17:35 |
_Mutex_ | what law please | Jun 16 17:35 |
_Mutex_ | how many times do I have to ask,, you said I desregard the law, please explain what you mean so we know its not FUD ?? | Jun 16 17:36 |
balzac | _Mutex_: don't worry, Microsoft's fortune is not hanging on the answer neighborlee won't give | Jun 16 17:37 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 16 17:37 |
_Mutex_ | I know neighborlee wont give it, | Jun 16 17:37 |
_Mutex_ | its FUD you cant back up fud with facts | Jun 16 17:37 |
_Mutex_ | I rest my case :) | Jun 16 17:38 |
balzac | hehe | Jun 16 17:38 |
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balzac | I like the Meld Diff Viewer from Gnome | Jun 16 17:39 |
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Np237 | balzac: I read they are going to port it to C# | Jun 16 17:40 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, that which PJ was concerend about so she sought legal counsel..that law.. | Jun 16 17:40 |
balzac | who? why? | Jun 16 17:41 |
Np237 | balzac: the developers are tired of Python, they want a better language | Jun 16 17:41 |
_Mutex_ | what law ?? the law someone else spoke to someone else again over ??? gee that really relates to me !!!! LOL | Jun 16 17:41 |
balzac | python rocks hard | Jun 16 17:41 |
balzac | Np237: if you're right, I may find a different utility for that purpose. | Jun 16 17:41 |
neighborlee | Np237, you mean the one to be used in place of gnome ? | Jun 16 17:42 |
Balrog | C# is 'better' than Python..?!? | Jun 16 17:42 |
balzac | I have choices. KDE has one. | Jun 16 17:42 |
balzac | also I can just use emacs or the *nix command from Bash | Jun 16 17:42 |
_Mutex_ | so I dont respect some law that PJ spoke to a laywer about, that I dont know about, or care about, or even in the same country as, that is FUD | Jun 16 17:42 |
_Mutex_ | do better please, | Jun 16 17:42 |
Np237 | Balrog: on some matters, yes | Jun 16 17:43 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, so again what you dont like, you just FUD | Jun 16 17:43 |
_Mutex_ | I dont respect a law that 2 people I dont not knwo spoke about ,, geee how terrible !! | Jun 16 17:43 |
Balrog | Np237: what about Java and such languages? | Jun 16 17:44 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, fine you disagree with a SFLC lawyer..fine get a response from another lawyer and we can debate it | Jun 16 17:44 |
_Mutex_ | thats classic textbook FUD, or trying out crawl out of a deep hole dug for yourself | Jun 16 17:44 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, maybe a MS lawyer | Jun 16 17:44 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, maybe brian can help you find one | Jun 16 17:44 |
_Mutex_ | I dont agree or disagree, I dont know what PJ talks to with other people,, IM NOT PJ | Jun 16 17:44 |
Np237 | Balrog: come on, Java is really a crappy language | Jun 16 17:44 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 16 17:45 |
Np237 | Balrog: it’s so verbose, only C++ does worse | Jun 16 17:45 |
_Mutex_ | Im sorry thats a silly pointless argument, that makes NO sense | Jun 16 17:45 |
Balrog | Np237: I program in Java, and it isn't crappy at all | Jun 16 17:45 |
Balrog | if you want something verbose, program in COBOL ;) | Jun 16 17:46 |
neighborlee | Balrog, only in the minds of those wanting to bash that which they hope to replace :) | Jun 16 17:46 |
Balrog | I know...I looked at C# and it seems ugly to me | Jun 16 17:47 |
splosion | schestowitz: "Like a relationship where the guy gets love and the woman gets his bank account" -- bad experiences? :P | Jun 16 17:47 |
Np237 | neighborlee: sorry but I didn’t wait for C# to think java is a piece of shit as a language | Jun 16 17:47 |
neighborlee | Np237, my my language...very nasty very unkind. | Jun 16 17:48 |
neighborlee | potty mouth alert ;) | Jun 16 17:48 |
neighborlee | just like on BN.....what a shame. | Jun 16 17:48 |
balzac | in addition to keeping the discussion free of excessively emotional content, let's also avoid analogies involving fecal content | Jun 16 17:48 |
Np237 | neighborlee: I’m sorry but I have to inform you that you’re not my mom | Jun 16 17:48 |
neighborlee | Np237, I would hope n ot to insult her | Jun 16 17:49 |
balzac | neighborlee: no parental condescension please | Jun 16 17:49 |
neighborlee | excuse me ? | Jun 16 17:49 |
balzac | wait till Roy gets back and sees me moderating | Jun 16 17:49 |
balzac | i'm not even an op | Jun 16 17:49 |
balzac | jk neighborlee | Jun 16 17:49 |
neighborlee | kk | Jun 16 17:49 |
neighborlee | rofl | Jun 16 17:49 |
balzac | Np237: you didn't need to bring up your mother | Jun 16 17:50 |
balzac | it gets emotional when people mention their mothers, i think | Jun 16 17:50 |
_Mutex_ | mabey we can drop it then | Jun 16 17:51 |
balzac | heheh | Jun 16 17:51 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, fine if you concede groklaw is right | Jun 16 17:51 |
neighborlee | mono must go- | Jun 16 17:51 |
Np237 | hahahahahahhahaahhaaaaa | Jun 16 17:51 |
_Mutex_ | well dont drop it i dont care, no you wont extort me | Jun 16 17:51 |
balzac | my mother cooks great pot pie! no she doesn't! [wiping away tears] I'll never forgive you for that insult~ | Jun 16 17:51 |
Np237 | I love when I see this | Jun 16 17:51 |
Balrog | Mono is comparable to Wine for me | Jun 16 17:52 |
Np237 | “I’ll stop saying bad things but first you have to admin I am right!” | Jun 16 17:52 |
Balrog | I wouldn't use it for any other reason | Jun 16 17:52 |
neighborlee | Balrog, :) | Jun 16 17:52 |
Np237 | gosh, how old are you people? | Jun 16 17:52 |
_Mutex_ | I was wondering tha tmyself | Jun 16 17:52 |
Np237 | s/admin/admit/ | Jun 16 17:52 |
balzac | 33 | Jun 16 17:52 |
_Mutex_ | spring chicken | Jun 16 17:52 |
Np237 | mind you, Robert Millan did the same about my infamous commit | Jun 16 17:53 |
Np237 | “I’ll agree to discuss about it, but first Joss has to revert the commit!” | Jun 16 17:53 |
Balrog | Np237: /wi Np237 | Jun 16 17:53 |
Balrog | err | Jun 16 17:53 |
Np237 | anyway, have to go fiesta | Jun 16 17:55 |
Np237 | I’ll make sure to drop by again, you’re a lot of fun | Jun 16 17:55 |
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balzac | np237 is a fan of Frank Herbert's Dune series | Jun 16 17:56 |
Balrog | np237 is pro-mono, I wonder why | Jun 16 17:57 |
balzac | i'd say it's probably more than one reason for a given mono supporter | Jun 16 17:57 |
balzac | they get drawn into depending on the proprietary faction for income | Jun 16 17:58 |
neighborlee | Balrog, thats a definite ;) | Jun 16 17:58 |
balzac | then they want to ascend in the hierarchy | Jun 16 17:58 |
balzac | so they ideologically embrace the wrong philosophy on software licensing and software patents | Jun 16 17:58 |
balzac | they figure it's not so egregiously wrong as killing whales | Jun 16 17:58 |
neighborlee | balzac, im betting income is one key factor yes..just like JO | Jun 16 17:59 |
neighborlee | Jo | Jun 16 17:59 |
balzac | yeah, rationalizing the ills of a company is very common for people whose income is from that company | Jun 16 17:59 |
neighborlee | I dont wish him NOT to be employed..but gez louiza ;)) | Jun 16 18:00 |
neighborlee | and they say capitalism has no ill effects! ;) | Jun 16 18:00 |
balzac | Some day I may hire people who used to depend on proprietary software | Jun 16 18:00 |
balzac | and they'll feel as if they're in a re-education camp and I'm Kim Jong Il | Jun 16 18:01 |
neighborlee | LOL | Jun 16 18:01 |
balzac | but it won't be true, because market forces are causing Microsoft's decline | Jun 16 18:01 |
balzac | and my company will be private, not a collective | Jun 16 18:01 |
balzac | so I'll be eager for them to understand at the philosophical level | Jun 16 18:02 |
neighborlee | true true | Jun 16 18:02 |
neighborlee | I think MS time is very close | Jun 16 18:02 |
balzac | and they'll be stubborn not to understand, because of ego identification with the prior position they staked out | Jun 16 18:02 |
neighborlee | no doubt yes | Jun 16 18:03 |
balzac | so by this time I'll be rich and I'll send them on an errand | Jun 16 18:03 |
balzac | Take this check to the office of the FSF via the china town express and deliver it to RMS | Jun 16 18:04 |
neighborlee | lol | Jun 16 18:04 |
_Mutex_ | see its so much easier to just beat on MS,, as opposed to rational discussion about well, actual real stuff, but go ahead its amusing to read, see if you can out agree with each other, united in your MS hatred | Jun 16 18:04 |
balzac | ask him, this question: "if you see the horns and the tail of the gnu, is that enough to know it's a gnu?" | Jun 16 18:04 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, where did he say hate | Jun 16 18:05 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, I want you to show us please | Jun 16 18:05 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, im asking nicely | Jun 16 18:05 |
neighborlee | :)and smiling | Jun 16 18:05 |
balzac | _Mutex_: you just brought emotion into this again | Jun 16 18:05 |
balzac | I don't hate you or MS | Jun 16 18:05 |
balzac | I don't hate Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer | Jun 16 18:05 |
neighborlee | he cant help i t..much like those on BN | Jun 16 18:05 |
_Mutex_ | "they'll feel as if they in a re-education camp and I'm Kin Jon Ill" | Jun 16 18:05 |
_Mutex_ | no no no thats not hate full at all right !! | Jun 16 18:06 |
neighborlee | its synonymous with something | Jun 16 18:06 |
balzac | _Mutex_: It's a joke, and as I said, it won't be true. | Jun 16 18:06 |
_Mutex_ | " tjheu fogire ot | Jun 16 18:06 |
balzac | I'm not a marxist! | Jun 16 18:06 |
_Mutex_ | s mpt sp agregopis;u wrpmg as lo;;omg wja;es | Jun 16 18:06 |
_Mutex_ | sorry, | Jun 16 18:06 |
neighborlee | what-was-that | Jun 16 18:06 |
balzac | _Mutex_: here's what I'm getting at | Jun 16 18:07 |
_Mutex_ | "they firgue it's not so egregiously wrong as killing whales". | Jun 16 18:07 |
balzac | _Mutex_: well, it isn't, is it? | Jun 16 18:07 |
_Mutex_ | *touch typist, fingers in the wrong place :) | Jun 16 18:07 |
neighborlee | ok thats just nasty to bring poor whales into this | Jun 16 18:07 |
_Mutex_ | but that not hatefull talk at all,, no ofcourse not by your sensibilities. | Jun 16 18:07 |
neighborlee | they dont deserve what they get..we are stewards of this planet and ALL its inhabitants | Jun 16 18:07 |
balzac | no, it isn't. | Jun 16 18:07 |
_Mutex_ | Killing whales in not implying a hatefull company RIGHT | Jun 16 18:07 |
balzac | _Mutex_: you just want to bring emotion back into it. | Jun 16 18:08 |
neighborlee | he's trying :)) | Jun 16 18:08 |
neighborlee | just like Jo | Jun 16 18:08 |
balzac | microsoft doesn't kill whales or small furry animals either. | Jun 16 18:08 |
neighborlee | Jo cant help himself either | Jun 16 18:08 |
_Mutex_ | what about calling a company "a collective", I cant imagine what you are referring to there !!! :) | Jun 16 18:08 |
balzac | I'm not even a PETA supporter | Jun 16 18:08 |
_Mutex_ | you know its hate talk, or your hatred is so ingrained that you dont realise what your actually saying. | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | _Mutex_: I'm not referring to Microsoft or to my own company (soon to be incorporated) Disruptech | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | no it isn't | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | it's like this | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | you've got organic milk | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | and milk with rGBH | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | Am I wrong to prefer the organic milk? | Jun 16 18:09 |
balzac | You've got tuna caught with respect for dolphins safety, and you've got tuna caught with hundreds of dolphins killed too | Jun 16 18:10 |
_Mutex_ | sorry thats an incredably poor analogy,, does MS sell milk or any product that is poison ? | Jun 16 18:10 |
balzac | no | Jun 16 18:10 |
balzac | but in software, you've got software patents, and you've got opposition to software patents | Jun 16 18:10 |
schestowitz | http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090616/hl_hsn/haveapurposeinlifeyoumightlivelonger psychological impact | Jun 16 18:11 |
_Mutex_ | Red hat has software patents too, are they evil ? | Jun 16 18:11 |
schestowitz | Do not forget Father’s Day this Sunday. | Jun 16 18:11 |
balzac | Free Software is like organic food, proprietary software is like starbucks and mcdonalds | Jun 16 18:11 |
balzac | thanks schestowitz | Jun 16 18:11 |
balzac | _Mutex_: let's not use the word "evil" | Jun 16 18:11 |
neighborlee | balzac, nice analogy ;)( | Jun 16 18:11 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, yes please stop the fud words | Jun 16 18:11 |
neighborlee | its getting old | Jun 16 18:12 |
_Mutex_ | ok, lets use the word patents, and not poison milk either or killing whales, neither of which MS or FOSS partake in | Jun 16 18:12 |
balzac | I'd say I prefer no software patents whether they're used for an exclusive deal like MS/Novell or for a public patent collective like RH | Jun 16 18:12 |
neighborlee | exactly | Jun 16 18:12 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, just cancer causing statements is that about it ? | Jun 16 18:13 |
_Mutex_ | so why attack one company with patents and not another, (that happens to be foss) ?? makees you look biased | Jun 16 18:13 |
balzac | _Mutex_: actually, I've been critical of redhat at times | Jun 16 18:13 |
_Mutex_ | Ive had cancer, but im sure I did not get it by hearing something said, or reading something. | Jun 16 18:13 |
balzac | I criticized Redhat for putting a graphic of their logo and Microsoft's logo together | Jun 16 18:13 |
balzac | and for not fighting patents in general | Jun 16 18:14 |
balzac | I don't like the patent collective concept, I just want to legally challenge all software patents | Jun 16 18:14 |
neighborlee | balzac, nice | Jun 16 18:14 |
balzac | I'd like to see Redhat step up with a more aggressive approach | Jun 16 18:14 |
splosion | Red Hat are fighting patents. They submitted an amicus curiae brief to the EPO arguing that the European Union shouldn't consider having them at all | Jun 16 18:15 |
balzac | cool | Jun 16 18:15 |
_Mutex_ | nothing wrong with fighting patents in general if you dont agree with them, thats your right, what is not so good, is being biased against one because you dont like them, and let another go because you do, I say that because you attached patents with MS, but did not mention FOSS's patents. | Jun 16 18:15 |
splosion | somewhat hypocritical of them to file such patents themselves, but c'est la vie | Jun 16 18:15 |
balzac | _Mutex_: see, Red Hat has earned some patience from activists with deeds like that | Jun 16 18:15 |
_Mutex_ | showing bias, not balance | Jun 16 18:15 |
_Mutex_ | sure, and there is nothing wrong with that, | Jun 16 18:15 |
balzac | _Mutex_: that's why I emphasize GPLv3 over GPLv2 | Jun 16 18:15 |
balzac | and Free Software over "Open Source" | Jun 16 18:16 |
schestowitz | splosion: re: bank account analogy. Yes, not MY experience. I'm not gullible enough. | Jun 16 18:16 |
balzac | _Mutex_: Redhat++ Novell-- | Jun 16 18:16 |
balzac | that's my bias | Jun 16 18:16 |
_Mutex_ | well I was just going by the mear fact that the flagship FOSS product, (the Linux kernel) is GPLv2, | Jun 16 18:16 |
_Mutex_ | so if that license is failed, its not good for the kernel | Jun 16 18:16 |
balzac | it would be a fine time to upgrade the kernel | Jun 16 18:17 |
Balrog | _Mutex_: that's because of Linus and some of the kernel developers, mainly due to the ban on 'tivoization' | Jun 16 18:17 |
_Mutex_ | but its not going to happen, torvalds is very happy with the GPLv2, if its good enough for the Kernel its good enough for me, and its good enough for Torvalds, and RMS. and FSF and the FSLF | Jun 16 18:17 |
schestowitz | Ahh.. the potty-mouted DD has left | Jun 16 18:18 |
schestowitz | *thed | Jun 16 18:18 |
splosion | schestowitz: bad luck on your friend, then. nearly had the same experience. who's not gullible for the charms of a lady. she lost interest when she discovered I was broke. hah! I make lots of money now | Jun 16 18:18 |
Balrog | splosion and schestowitz: I don't get why people want $$$$$ | Jun 16 18:19 |
Balrog | or a lot of it | Jun 16 18:19 |
schestowitz | splosion: the guy gets what he wants... the girl, well.. hopes she gets what she wants (usually not the same thing). | Jun 16 18:19 |
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schestowitz | Hey, wallclimber | Jun 16 18:19 |
wallclimber | Hi Roy! | Jun 16 18:19 |
balzac | Balrog: money can buy goods and services | Jun 16 18:19 |
_Mutex_ | its called living and eating, and a roof over your head, | Jun 16 18:19 |
wallclimber | I just sent you an email... | Jun 16 18:20 |
schestowitz | Balrog: it's like a welfare system for some | Jun 16 18:20 |
_Mutex_ | Homer is great LOL | Jun 16 18:20 |
schestowitz | And some girls like to ride a car in town making their peers envious | Jun 16 18:20 |
balzac | i love spending money on attractive girls | Jun 16 18:20 |
Balrog | money is good, but you work to get money :) ... and there's a difference between needs and wants | Jun 16 18:20 |
schestowitz | Simple ways of life... in this social norm. That's what they see on TV | Jun 16 18:20 |
balzac | I don't mind making douche-bag dudes jealous | Jun 16 18:21 |
balzac | it's value added from being seen with a hot girl on your arm, or even two of them | Jun 16 18:21 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: thanks | Jun 16 18:21 |
balzac | schestowitz: it's not just TV, it's ancient aspects of human psychological anatomy | Jun 16 18:21 |
schestowitz | brb. got back from table tennis, gotta get shower first | Jun 16 18:21 |
balzac | ego is part of your psychological anatomy | Jun 16 18:22 |
wallclimber | Guess I better get back to work now and let you boys chat about girls and money...lol | Jun 16 18:22 |
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balzac | Roy, I fixed the ping pong table at the local british pub in brooklyn | Jun 16 18:22 |
schestowitz | Who for? | Jun 16 18:22 |
schestowitz | The one dancing on it? | Jun 16 18:22 |
balzac | for those of us who play | Jun 16 18:22 |
schestowitz | brb | Jun 16 18:22 |
balzac | well, a chunky girl sat on it, apparently | Jun 16 18:22 |
_Mutex_ | she not chunky she's just big boned !!! | Jun 16 18:23 |
balzac | this dude seemed a bit peeved about it | Jun 16 18:23 |
balzac | I might have spanked her with a ping pong paddle, just so she'd feel ok about it | Jun 16 18:23 |
balzac | once this chick got herself in trouble at the bar. she was drunk and she attempted to pour her own drink because the bar tender wasn't there. | Jun 16 18:24 |
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tacone | hey | Jun 16 18:24 |
balzac | these regulars got pissed at her and said "What are you doing?!" | Jun 16 18:24 |
Balrog | hey tacone | Jun 16 18:24 |
tacone | i've an interesting news | Jun 16 18:24 |
balzac | ? | Jun 16 18:24 |
tacone | there could be something like a f-spot port | Jun 16 18:25 |
tacone | not sure yet :) | Jun 16 18:25 |
Balrog | nice | Jun 16 18:25 |
balzac | _Mutex_: to finish the story, her thong was up way above her jeans | Jun 16 18:25 |
tacone | fedora promoted | Jun 16 18:25 |
_Mutex_ | lets hope they dont make the next version of f-spot "G" !!!! | Jun 16 18:26 |
balzac | I snapped her thong and then spanked her right at the bar. she was cooperative because she knew it wasn't right to pour her own drink and aggravate the bar tender. | Jun 16 18:26 |
tacone | Gspot would make sense as it's gnomish :) | Jun 16 18:26 |
_Mutex_ | LOL | Jun 16 18:27 |
_Mutex_ | think of the joks "ive been allover the web, and I cant find my g-spot, will you come over and help me find my G-spot please, :D | Jun 16 18:28 |
balzac | I've got a copy of the classic book called G-spot | Jun 16 18:29 |
balzac | _Mutex_: I will not help you find any part of your anatomy! | Jun 16 18:32 |
_Mutex_ | I will sleep so much better tonight for that LOL | Jun 16 18:33 |
schestowitz | Change subject? | Jun 16 18:33 |
schestowitz | Hey, tacone | Jun 16 18:33 |
schestowitz | You're on the radio, man | Jun 16 18:33 |
tacone | uh ? | Jun 16 18:34 |
tacone | schestowitz: ? | Jun 16 18:34 |
schestowitz | < tllts_302-06-10-09.mp3 > | Jun 16 18:34 |
schestowitz | Skip to min 10 | Jun 16 18:34 |
tacone | i can't see the complete url | Jun 16 18:34 |
schestowitz | tacone: tllts | Jun 16 18:34 |
schestowitz | http://www.tllts.org/dl.php | Jun 16 18:35 |
tacone | i have no clue | Jun 16 18:35 |
_Mutex_ | ok so does BING stand for "Bing Is Not Google" ?? | Jun 16 18:35 |
schestowitz | 7:00 - different SIP phones(Linphone), Dann is such a great husband and dad who takes good care of his family, our stance on Mono applications | Jun 16 18:35 |
tacone | no, whait | Jun 16 18:35 |
tacone | i got it | Jun 16 18:35 |
schestowitz | _Mutex_: it's meant to say "We're unique" | Jun 16 18:36 |
schestowitz | I read it differently | Jun 16 18:36 |
schestowitz | As in "bing will never be as popular as Google" | Jun 16 18:36 |
schestowitz | It already gets abandoned | Jun 16 18:36 |
schestowitz | People smelled it and moved on | Jun 16 18:36 |
schestowitz | They have work to do | Jun 16 18:36 |
splosion | Bwnbapag? eww | Jun 16 18:37 |
tacone | ok downloading | Jun 16 18:37 |
tacone | "Fedora 11 was just released, "it's not brown" " LOL | Jun 16 18:38 |
_Mutex_ | its a search engine, it works, and so does google, and yahoo, and webwombat and a bunch of others, but it does give more choice, and its interesting to try several, they give much the same results, and its big benifit is google is employing more engineers to improve google search, making the entire market better for everyone, choice, and improved functionality, its win win, | Jun 16 18:38 |
_Mutex_ | and its gives FOSS more ammo to bash MS with, :) | Jun 16 18:39 |
balzac | I installed Fedora | Jun 16 18:39 |
schestowitz | Red Hat's Fedora 11: So easy you'll forget it's Linux http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10260478-16.html | Jun 16 18:40 |
balzac | tacone: where'd you find that ? | Jun 16 18:40 |
tacone | on tllts | Jun 16 18:41 |
tacone | disconnecting now. | Jun 16 18:41 |
balzac | url? | Jun 16 18:41 |
tacone | later | Jun 16 18:41 |
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balzac | I guess I should _microsoft_ the string "tllts" | Jun 16 18:41 |
schestowitz | http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3824421 Linux 2.6.30 Gets Faster Boot | Jun 16 18:41 |
balzac | actually not, I'm going to _google_ it | Jun 16 18:41 |
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schestowitz | wb, maxstirner1 | Jun 16 18:42 |
maxstirner1 | thanks, how are things? | Jun 16 18:42 |
schestowitz | I refereed to you as "max" in the Alexis post | Jun 16 18:42 |
schestowitz | Assuming you don't want full name out there | Jun 16 18:42 |
maxstirner1 | i feel honoured | Jun 16 18:42 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @trmanco: nice. I see that Ubuntu is finally taking a look at Mono problems. http://ping.fm/Ec6QV | Jun 16 18:42 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] reformatting my external hd in ext4 | Jun 16 18:42 | |
maxstirner1 | that isnt my real name, its a 19th century german philosopher | Jun 16 18:43 |
maxstirner1 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner | Jun 16 18:43 |
maxstirner1 | marx engels hegel that sort of line | Jun 16 18:43 |
schestowitz | Study Says File Sharers Would Ignore Warning Letters; Recording Industry Gets The Wrong Message < http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090610/0234295184.shtml > | Jun 16 18:43 |
schestowitz | maxstirner1: OK, I suspected this | Jun 16 18:44 |
maxstirner1 | hehe i found it now, I missed the article | Jun 16 18:44 |
maxstirner1 | I try to be diligent but your volume of output is enormous :D | Jun 16 18:44 |
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_Mutex_ | In short, at the moment, Mono is very well-maintained in Ubuntu and | Jun 16 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | there appears to be no significant cause for concern over its IP | Jun 16 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | situation. | Jun 16 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | quote | Jun 16 18:46 |
balzac | _Mutex_: ? | Jun 16 18:46 |
_Mutex_ | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-June/028347.html | Jun 16 18:47 |
balzac | who is colin watson? | Jun 16 18:47 |
Balrog | I don't like it in Ubuntu because of size and memory usage for something I rarely would use | Jun 16 18:47 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Going 'Paperless' to Thwart Scalpers http://ping.fm/IdWaB | Jun 16 18:47 | |
schestowitz | Supervolcano may be brewing beneath Mount St Helens < http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227124.700-supervolcano-may-be-brewing-beneath-mount-st-helens.html > | Jun 16 18:47 |
_Mutex_ | im quite sure someoneo as bright as you can remove it easily should you so choose | Jun 16 18:48 |
neighborlee | thats not even the issue..though it works as a reason..ubuntu shoud be talking to fedora on this..we should unite not divide on this issue.. | Jun 16 18:48 |
_Mutex_ | Again !! | Jun 16 18:48 |
nixed | http://pastebin.com/f4c3dce66 | Jun 16 18:48 |
nixed | It was a conversation that I had with Miguel de Icaza. | Jun 16 18:48 |
_Mutex_ | that post says mono has been in Ubuntu since version 5 !! | Jun 16 18:48 |
nixed | I figured everyone would be interested. | Jun 16 18:49 |
nixed | ;) | Jun 16 18:49 |
schestowitz | Boingboing is down | Jun 16 18:49 |
splosion | nixed:when was that? | Jun 16 18:49 |
neighborlee | nixed, I remember the sillly mess miguel had with gnome ML in 2006 too | Jun 16 18:49 |
neighborlee | and I have it on GOOD word people are still upset over it and dont trust mono..stiill.. | Jun 16 18:49 |
nixed | I spoke to him not too long ago today. | Jun 16 18:49 |
nixed | :) | Jun 16 18:49 |
neighborlee | people from gnome | Jun 16 18:50 |
balzac | nixed: who? | Jun 16 18:50 |
splosion | oooh, up-to-date goodness | Jun 16 18:50 |
splosion | so how's your report coming along, thar, nixed? | Jun 16 18:50 |
maxstirner1 | <miguel> Is that Sam Vargese again? <miguel> I rather not read more junk from that "journalist" | Jun 16 18:50 |
maxstirner1 | :D | Jun 16 18:50 |
nixed | Just read the rest of it. | Jun 16 18:50 |
_Mutex_ | how come, all the people who code under the windows platform, are not restricted by the patents their development tools contain, they make applications all the time, and there is not a problem, | Jun 16 18:50 |
_Mutex_ | why would there be a problem with FOSS ? I dont see it myself. | Jun 16 18:51 |
schestowitz | nixed: was that PMs? | Jun 16 18:51 |
Balrog | schestowitz: it seems it was PMs | Jun 16 18:52 |
balzac | proprietary development tools? | Jun 16 18:52 |
_Mutex_ | yes, | Jun 16 18:52 |
balzac | _Mutex_: they probably paid extra for those patent claims | Jun 16 18:52 |
MinceR | "<miguel> MS *claims* that the kernel infringes some 200 of their patents" -- so novell doesn't "*claim*" that but was willing to pay for a license? funny. | Jun 16 18:52 |
balzac | I don't use proprietary development tools | Jun 16 18:52 |
neighborlee | MinceR, yeah.. | Jun 16 18:53 |
_Mutex_ | but if you did, you can code whatever you like, and patents within the VC or whatever has no effect on your product. | Jun 16 18:53 |
MinceR | strangely enough, on the linked http://mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing page the MIT X11 license somehow shows up even though somebody said it's all GPL. | Jun 16 18:53 |
MinceR | inexplicable. | Jun 16 18:53 |
_Mutex_ | just as I can code in GCC and there is not a problem, no different. | Jun 16 18:53 |
schestowitz | NASA's Icy-Hot Rocket Engine http://www.wired.com/science/space/magazine/17-06/st_rocketicicles | Jun 16 18:53 |
balzac | _Mutex_: I want 100% of my freedom. I won't buy it either. | Jun 16 18:53 |
nixed | Yes, for the record, it was a via PM. | Jun 16 18:53 |
neighborlee | MinceR, about as much as the inexplicable invisible ecma license ;0? | Jun 16 18:54 |
splosion | most proprietary software will have patent licensing deals in them somewhere or other. it's usually included in the cost of the programme itself. Obviously, this is an anathema to free software, which is usually free beer as well, and whose licence doesn't allow you to pass on the deal to others | Jun 16 18:54 |
maxstirner1 | nixed: what is that nixedreport project of yours? | Jun 16 18:54 |
schestowitz | Feds Swoop In on Nationwide Pickpocket, I.D. Theft Ring http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/pickpockets/ | Jun 16 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | for the tool yes, but not for what you create from that tool, thats YOURS sure if your code breached a copyright or patent thats another issue, but you do not inherit patent liability from a development tool, you just dont, | Jun 16 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | not even if you use Gcc libs, | Jun 16 18:55 |
_Mutex_ | and you are not bound by any license if you write your own code, you can license it how ever y ou want | Jun 16 18:55 |
MinceR | neighborlee: the one that "will" be available at some undisclosed time on a "royalty-free and otherwise RAND" basis? :> | Jun 16 18:56 |
neighborlee | MinceR, LOL yeah that one ;))) | Jun 16 18:56 |
nixed | @maxtirner1: It's a publication that I do. | Jun 16 18:56 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, have comment on that ? | Jun 16 18:56 |
MinceR | oh, and only the ones that are "essential to implementing C# | Jun 16 18:56 |
MinceR | and CLI" | Jun 16 18:56 |
MinceR | so not necessarily all the ones apps in gnome, for example, rely on. | Jun 16 18:56 |
splosion | _Mutex_: I think it's the API that's the thing more than anything | Jun 16 18:56 |
maxstirner1 | nixed: you are working on a one-off publication or you producing a series of sorts/blog? | Jun 16 18:56 |
splosion | sorry, that was a terrible sentence | Jun 16 18:56 |
nixed | It's an online magazine. | Jun 16 18:57 |
neighborlee | splosion, we forgive ;) | Jun 16 18:57 |
nixed | I also blog there. | Jun 16 18:57 |
nixed | :) | Jun 16 18:57 |
neighborlee | splosion, har | Jun 16 18:57 |
_Mutex_ | a comment on what sorry, I did not read your question ? | Jun 16 18:57 |
maxstirner1 | i see. link? | Jun 16 18:57 |
MinceR | also, it's kind of strange that this email is all novell could point at | Jun 16 18:57 |
MinceR | no official statements regarding anything whatsoever | Jun 16 18:57 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Product Spotlight: System 76 Meerkat NetTop Linux PC: http://digg.com/d1tzZO?t | Jun 16 18:57 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] California nears financial "meltdown" as revenues tumble < http://ping.fm/Mm5mF > Not to worry. Hollywood superhero will save the day. | Jun 16 18:57 | |
neighborlee | brb | Jun 16 18:58 |
_Mutex_ | well I can write code using patent windows, and write that code for another OS, or cpu or application and not use API's, and api's are not patent encumbered, if they are how does that gell with WINE ? | Jun 16 18:58 |
maxstirner1 | "most famous austrian since hitler" | Jun 16 18:58 |
MinceR | and then people like _Mutex_ come out the woodwork and say that we're lunatics for being concerned. | Jun 16 18:58 |
maxstirner1 | the new cohen film should be good | Jun 16 18:58 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: wine is on shaky ground no matter what... but only windows apps rely on it | Jun 16 18:58 |
splosion | _Mutex_: the software you create can violate patents regardless of the IDE you use. that's what i was trying to mangle a sentence about! | Jun 16 18:58 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: so we have no alternative in that case | Jun 16 18:58 |
_Mutex_ | Um who have I called a lunatic ?? | Jun 16 18:59 |
nixed | I don't think they meant literally. | Jun 16 18:59 |
MinceR | well, not literally | Jun 16 18:59 |
nixed | I think they meant figuratively. | Jun 16 18:59 |
_Mutex_ | Yes, they can, just as if you write the software with GCC your point is ? | Jun 16 18:59 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: you and the other guy have spent days flaming us for this. | Jun 16 19:00 |
neighborlee | so they dont believe it to be a 'major risk'..so its a risk..all I can say is go fedora~! | Jun 16 19:00 |
_Mutex_ | im not flaming, im asking a simple and logical question, dont take offence of the search for clarity. | Jun 16 19:00 |
MinceR | i guess having to rewrite an entire desktop environment after relying on it would be a "minor risk" then... | Jun 16 19:01 |
_Mutex_ | so yes I can write code in GCC that can breach a patent, just as I can with VC or mono, or assem for that matter, but im still not bound by internal patents in GCC or VC or my assembler | Jun 16 19:01 |
_Mutex_ | who has to re-write anything ? | Jun 16 19:01 |
neighborlee | MinceR, :) | Jun 16 19:02 |
neighborlee | _Mutex_, the rewriting of gnome in mono | Jun 16 19:02 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: does mono produce native code like gcc does? | Jun 16 19:02 |
_Mutex_ | gosh I can write C++ code with a bit of paper and a pen, mabey my pen is patented, but does that mean what I write does, ?? Umm No.. | Jun 16 19:02 |
_Mutex_ | yes, | Jun 16 19:02 |
schestowitz | Official: 'Earl' finishes list, not going to TBS http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/06/tbs-rejects-my-name-is-earl.html | Jun 16 19:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Review: ZaReason Ion Breeze 3770 Linux PC: http://digg.com/d1tzbd?t | Jun 16 19:02 | |
splosion | I've been around here for a few days now and I've noticed that trolling around here works like this: person A makes an offhand humorous remark or some sort of bad analagy whilst making an argument. Person B then ignores his entire argument and jumps on that tiny hanging loose thread. | Jun 16 19:02 |
splosion | here's an example, "Would you like it if Microsoft killed a bunch of folk!?" --- 'SO you're saying they're murders now? Jeez you're an idiot." | Jun 16 19:03 |
splosion | and so on | Jun 16 19:03 |
splosion | it's like the IRC version of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling "LALALALALALALA" | Jun 16 19:05 |
schestowitz | Microsoft Trying to Set Own Antitrust Remedy, Says Opera CEO http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20090612/tc_pcworld/microsofttryingtosetownantitrustremedysaysoperaceo | Jun 16 19:05 |
schestowitz | splosion: the mono folks are nervous | Jun 16 19:06 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: well, have fun running your code developed in mono without a mono runtime, then | Jun 16 19:06 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, very | Jun 16 19:06 |
schestowitz | They dig up every little crumb that may seem like dirt | Jun 16 19:06 |
schestowitz | Fraudulently accusing me of being connected to "fink" | Jun 16 19:06 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: ...and mono class libraries, of course | Jun 16 19:06 |
schestowitz | Just wasting time with flase accusations | Jun 16 19:06 |
schestowitz | But anyway, I have some Comes stuff | Jun 16 19:06 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, and abusing the langauge as much as possible...tear down discussion with colorful adjectives to divert | Jun 16 19:07 |
splosion | schestowitz: it's not just that. it's pretty much happened in every conversation I've seen here :P | Jun 16 19:07 |
schestowitz | Chinese firm hits back at cyberspy claims http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/cybersecurity_huawei/ | Jun 16 19:07 |
_Mutex_ | MinceR, your point is ? | Jun 16 19:07 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Linux Palm Pre is shipping GPL incompliant : http://digg.com/d1tzdZ?t | Jun 16 19:07 | |
MinceR | _Mutex_: my point is that to prove that there are no patent issues with mono, you're bringing up analogies that don't apply to the situation at all | Jun 16 19:08 |
_Mutex_ | explain why they dont apply please, explain to me, how writing code in GCC will protect me from patents if the code I write breaks a patent ? | Jun 16 19:09 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: the problem here is that the patents apply to the JIT compiler that runs the bytecode and the class library that also needs to be installed to run the compiled program | Jun 16 19:10 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: if you used c or c++, your code wouldn't rely on the JIT compiler nor the mono class libraries, unless you reimplemented mono or something similar. | Jun 16 19:11 |
_Mutex_ | well you can write c and C++ code on mono | Jun 16 19:11 |
MinceR | which wouldn't help you at all | Jun 16 19:11 |
_Mutex_ | you now c and C++ are a sub-let of c# | Jun 16 19:12 |
MinceR | besides "managed c" is not c and "managed c++" is not c++ | Jun 16 19:12 |
MinceR | no they aren't | Jun 16 19:12 |
_Mutex_ | ADA, C, Rudy, C, cobra, lua, forth, lisp, #smalltalk, pascal, php, oberon, javascript, VB.net, ,Nemerle, Boo, Java, C# | Jun 16 19:21 |
_Mutex_ | (sorry C twice). | Jun 16 19:21 |
MinceR | and of course it's called the same then it must be 100% compatible | Jun 16 19:23 |
MinceR | never mind that it runs on a VM, has different memory management and likely has no access to the same libraries in the same way | Jun 16 19:23 |
_Mutex_ | yes, thats whats names and standards are for, either K&R or ANSI C and variants. Just like GCC ! | Jun 16 19:24 |
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_Mutex_ | Is that based on any facts, MinceR or speculation ? | Jun 16 19:25 |
MinceR | i know a few facts about how .net/mono works | Jun 16 19:26 |
MinceR | and i remember reading about how managed c++ works | Jun 16 19:26 |
MinceR | i wonder if managed c++ even allows multiple inheritance | Jun 16 19:26 |
_Mutex_ | ok , then explain how it would access libraries any different than anything else would ? | Jun 16 19:26 |
MinceR | afaik the .net/mono object system wasn't designed for that | Jun 16 19:26 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: by the fact that the libraries aren't necessarily there, for one thing | Jun 16 19:27 |
_Mutex_ | ?? what ? so it accesses libraries different because they are not there, OOOOkkkk.. | Jun 16 19:27 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: and for another thing, by the fact that you normally preprocess c code and process macros once and that would result in a bytecode that's supposed to be portable | Jun 16 19:27 |
MinceR | but cross platform support in the library headers don't know about that | Jun 16 19:28 |
_Mutex_ | yes, like you've always done with c and its variants, like for the past million years or so, again you're point is ? | Jun 16 19:28 |
MinceR | my point is that "managed c" is not and cannot be c | Jun 16 19:29 |
MinceR | the assumptions c is built on are simply not there | Jun 16 19:29 |
_Mutex_ | what is "managed C" i dont see that anywhere on mono ? so what do you mean by "managed C" is your C unmanaged ? | Jun 16 19:30 |
MinceR | that's what m$ calls normal native languages that were somehow ported to mono | Jun 16 19:30 |
MinceR | (.net) | Jun 16 19:30 |
MinceR | you're supposed to know that | Jun 16 19:30 |
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splosion | 198 is the smallest number with 10 representations as a sum of 4 positive squares | Jun 16 19:31 |
splosion | err, wrong window | Jun 16 19:31 |
MinceR | mono fans may want to read http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25215/1090/1/0/ | Jun 16 19:32 |
MinceR | splosion: lol | Jun 16 19:32 |
neighborlee | splosion, lOL | Jun 16 19:33 |
splosion | 198 = 1^2+2^2+7^2+12^2 = 1^2+4^2+9^2+10^2 = 2^2+3^2+4^2+13^2 = 2^2+3^2+8^2+11^2 = 2^2+5^2+5^2+12^2 = 2^2+7^2+8^2+9^2 = 3^2+3^2+6^2+12^2 = 3^2+5^2+8^2+10^2 = 4^2+5^2+6^2+11^2 = 6^2+7^2+7^2+8^2 | Jun 16 19:35 |
splosion | might as well give the answer now | Jun 16 19:35 |
MinceR | :) | Jun 16 19:35 |
_Mutex_ | im impressed !! :) | Jun 16 19:36 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reader’s Article: What Makes Microsoft’s Business Unethical http://ping.fm/tw7uC | Jun 16 19:37 | |
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schestowitz | Any thoughts on Palm? | Jun 16 19:43 |
schestowitz | Palm is an ethical company. They'll probably rectify the issue of GPL violation. It's important that gpl-violations brought it to their attention politely. | Jun 16 19:43 |
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neighborlee | schestowitz, quite true | Jun 16 19:43 |
neighborlee | on both counts | Jun 16 19:43 |
MinceR | they're suspicious | Jun 16 19:44 |
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MinceR | also, i'm still waiting whether they'll allow native code on webOS -- otherwise it will be useless personally to me | Jun 16 19:44 |
_Mutex_ | MS bundle, yes, but so does Linux, and Apple, and nokia and most others, and I think there are false advertising laws in the US, there are in Australia. | Jun 16 19:46 |
MinceR | there are lots of laws that aren't enforced | Jun 16 19:47 |
splosion | I know Palm got stiffed out of multi-touch because of Apple. Did they work something out in the end? multi-touch seems like a really useful thing, to me. | Jun 16 19:47 |
_Mutex_ | do you expect a car company to say "buy my car, it does not go well, it pollutes and get low fuel milage", No they will promote the advantages of their product, like all businesses do. | Jun 16 19:47 |
MinceR | even nonexistent ones, yes | Jun 16 19:47 |
MinceR | they got away with much more serious stuff | Jun 16 19:48 |
_Mutex_ | andif you see laws being broken, its you're civic duty to report it, its probably a law not to | Jun 16 19:48 |
MinceR | they were even tried for some of them | Jun 16 19:48 |
MinceR | btw i'm not a citizen of the usa | Jun 16 19:48 |
_Mutex_ | im sure you're a citizen of someplace though, they probably have laws there too, | Jun 16 19:49 |
MinceR | and they're enforced just as little | Jun 16 19:50 |
MinceR | in fact, even less against wealthy individuals and companies | Jun 16 19:50 |
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_Mutex_ | thats why you have elected officials, and law enforcement agencies, and your right to report crimes if you see them. | Jun 16 19:51 |
MinceR | the most that happened to m$ here was that they might have had to bribe a few people | Jun 16 19:51 |
MinceR | no, that's not why we have elected officials | Jun 16 19:51 |
_Mutex_ | like that ponsie scheme guy, the one in prison now. | Jun 16 19:51 |
MinceR | we have elected officials because that's the way they've managed to pretend what they do to us is legitimate | Jun 16 19:51 |
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_Mutex_ | ok, why do we have them for if not for civil order ? | Jun 16 19:52 |
MinceR | our "elite" does nothing but oppress and rob us | Jun 16 19:52 |
MinceR | there's no civil order here, unless by that you mean that the rich get their way | Jun 16 19:52 |
_Mutex_ | then express you distaste at the poling booth. | Jun 16 19:52 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] at @nyecamden's, stealing his eee701 for twitter twiddling | Jun 16 19:52 | |
splosion | The polling booth is worthless when all the candidates are crooks. | Jun 16 19:53 |
_Mutex_ | so you like in an anarchy, a lawless land, where no rules apply, there in no infrastructure, no roads, no health care, no police, or judicial system and so on,,, where do you live, and remind me not to go there. | Jun 16 19:53 |
MinceR | all i can do is vote for a different band of bastards | Jun 16 19:53 |
MinceR | i live in hungary | Jun 16 19:53 |
MinceR | and it's probably no worse than the usa | Jun 16 19:53 |
_Mutex_ | ok I did not think it was THAT bad there | Jun 16 19:53 |
MinceR | we still have some liberties left, at least in theory | Jun 16 19:53 |
splosion | _Mutex_: err, no. Hating the choice on offer does not equate to advocating anarchy | Jun 16 19:54 |
MinceR | theoretically we don't have sw patents, i'm not sure whether that really works | Jun 16 19:54 |
_Mutex_ | he said the laws there were not enforced, | Jun 16 19:54 |
MinceR | actually i do advocate anarchy, the problem is that anarchy requires the human mindset to be a lot more advanced than it is | Jun 16 19:54 |
neighborlee | MinceR, we are the great usofa.but our liberties are sometimes disguised and often has little to do with liberty..unlike the great statue ;) | Jun 16 19:54 |
MinceR | which would solve the problems by itself | Jun 16 19:55 |
MinceR | and obviate the state and coercion | Jun 16 19:55 |
_Mutex_ | you as an end user, like all those who have TOMTOM GPL's with FAT in it, are not liable. Full stop. | Jun 16 19:55 |
MinceR | without that, anarchy would immediately revert into some sort of state. | Jun 16 19:55 |
_Mutex_ | GPS sorry | Jun 16 19:55 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: i'm not only an end user | Jun 16 19:55 |
MinceR | the megacorps wished we were all end users | Jun 16 19:55 |
MinceR | in their favored arrangement that gives them absolute power over us | Jun 16 19:56 |
_Mutex_ | most are, | Jun 16 19:56 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Canonical to Look Into the Question of Mono/Microsoft Patents in Ubuntu < http://ping.fm/oQdg3 > | Jun 16 20:27 | |
_Mutex_ | and what did they conclude !! “In short, at the moment, Mono is very well-maintained in Ubuntu and there appears to be no significant cause for concern over its IP situation” | Jun 16 20:40 |
_Mutex_ | I read that as them saying, we like it and its going to stay, ? | Jun 16 20:40 |
MinceR | "we're going to force mono into the distro even if that's the last thing we'll ever do" | Jun 16 20:41 |
_Mutex_ | was that in the same article ? | Jun 16 20:41 |
MinceR | no, it's my interpretation | Jun 16 20:41 |
MinceR | it's fine, i'm already considering moving to another distro, considering that intrepid made it apparent that their definition of a "stable release" doesn't match mine | Jun 16 20:42 |
_Mutex_ | ahhh, ok, so not based on any ummm facts ok | Jun 16 20:42 |
_Mutex_ | as is your right and your freedom, | Jun 16 20:42 |
MinceR | not based on any ummm speculation based on the vague speculations uttered by miguel about the stuff he himself released, no | Jun 16 20:42 |
_Mutex_ | whats a minguel ? | Jun 16 20:43 |
MinceR | miguel de icaza | Jun 16 20:43 |
_Mutex_ | and who is he when he's at home ? | Jun 16 20:43 |
MinceR | don't tell me you don't know who he is | Jun 16 20:43 |
MinceR | he started your beloved mono project | Jun 16 20:43 |
_Mutex_ | I probably dont know alot of people, I think were up to about 6 billion people now, its hard to keep track of them all by name | Jun 16 20:44 |
MinceR | he's "vice president of developer platform" at novell, whatever that's supposed to mean | Jun 16 20:44 |
MinceR | well, you'd better not go all high and mighty and "ummm facts" when you know nothing | Jun 16 20:45 |
MinceR | it kind of makes you look bad | Jun 16 20:45 |
_Mutex_ | I provide links to my facts, how about you ? | Jun 16 20:45 |
MinceR | there was the pastebin link earlier | Jun 16 20:45 |
_Mutex_ | I tend to not engage in speculation or interpretation, | Jun 16 20:45 |
MinceR | which linked to an article i linked later | Jun 16 20:45 |
MinceR | it's not my fault you don't pay attention to the discussion | Jun 16 20:46 |
_Mutex_ | I pay attention, as you well know :) | Jun 16 20:46 |
MinceR | 200505 < nixed> http://pastebin.com/f4c3dce66 | Jun 16 20:46 |
_Mutex_ | but I do have a life too, | Jun 16 20:46 |
MinceR | http://mono-project.com/FAQ:_Licensing | Jun 16 20:46 |
MinceR | http://web.archive.org/web/20030424174805/http://mailserver.di.unipi.it/pipermail/dotnet-sscli/msg00218.html | Jun 16 20:46 |
_Mutex_ | my entire universe is not FOSS or software, or technology, its just an interest. | Jun 16 20:46 |
MinceR | 204850 < MinceR> mono fans may want to read http://www.itwire.com/content/view/25215/1090/1/0/ | Jun 16 20:46 |
_Mutex_ | not an idealogy | Jun 16 20:47 |
MinceR | hm, the itwire article probably wasn't linked from that | Jun 16 20:47 |
MinceR | but something else that was linked here | Jun 16 20:47 |
MinceR | s/something/from something/ | Jun 16 20:47 |
_Mutex_ | I like to go to the source, not an interpretation of it | Jun 16 20:47 |
MinceR | well, it doesn't get a lot more "source" than the irc log where miguel was speaking and the official mono site | Jun 16 20:48 |
MinceR | and the mail the official mono site links as supposed proof that they're ok patent-wise | Jun 16 20:48 |
MinceR | (which doesn't prove anything, of course) | Jun 16 20:48 |
MinceR | a lot of handwaving, no facts | Jun 16 20:49 |
_Mutex_ | hte official mono site, yes, but irc Hmm mabey, if you can confirm its really him, and you cant | Jun 16 20:49 |
MinceR | and if i can confirm if it's the official mono site? | Jun 16 20:49 |
schestowitz | MySpace Cuts "Bloated Staffing Levels" http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/16/myspace-makes-with-the-massive-layoffs | Jun 16 20:49 |
MinceR | go arrange a meeting with him personally and talk to him, i have better things to do | Jun 16 20:49 |
_Mutex_ | As do i, whats homer say "I would really love to want to help you".. but | Jun 16 20:50 |
balzac | time for a bit of celebration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QAlt4Sfl7Q | Jun 16 20:50 |
balzac | Please watch that video | Jun 16 20:50 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: well then don't go around pretending you know something about the issue we were discussing, when in fact you don't | Jun 16 20:50 |
balzac | this is how I celebrate bad news for Microsoft ;0D | Jun 16 20:51 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: you're wasting the time of everyone on this channel | Jun 16 20:51 |
balzac | MinceR: please click my youtube link | Jun 16 20:51 |
balzac | lighten up | Jun 16 20:52 |
MinceR | watching | Jun 16 20:52 |
_Mutex_ | what bad news ?? ok, sorry for putting up reasoned and logical arguments that you have trouble countering, but hey, thats life, not everyone is going to agree with you all the time, if you expect that y ou will be always disippointed. | Jun 16 20:52 |
balzac | It's better to have civilized proprietary software / microsoft advocates than to have drooling cretins | Jun 16 20:52 |
_Mutex_ | yes, it is | Jun 16 20:52 |
MinceR | if it was possible | Jun 16 20:52 |
balzac | it also necessitates that people on the FOSS side maintain some decorum as well | Jun 16 20:52 |
MinceR | but civilized people have already recognized m$ for what it is | Jun 16 20:52 |
_Mutex_ | and if you ever hear me talk FUD or un-substantiated info, im sure you all will be the first to call me on it, and thats is exactly what I want, just I will do for you.. thats what balance is, thats what debate is. | Jun 16 20:54 |
MinceR | i thought that was what we were doing in the last few days :> | Jun 16 20:54 |
balzac | MinceR: a person's position or lack thereof on software licensing or monopoly does not separate the civilized from the barbarians | Jun 16 20:54 |
balzac | _Mutex_: I find lots of what you say is lacking substance, and lots of what is said to you, the substance is not acknowledged | Jun 16 20:55 |
MinceR | balzac: failure to recognize that a particular entity is very openly and obviously trying to destroy all opposition and destroy the freedom of everyone would take a really weak mind | Jun 16 20:55 |
_Mutex_ | then call me on it, and I will happily clarify and support what I say,,, just as I expect from you should I call you on your facts. its only fair. | Jun 16 20:55 |
balzac | MinceR: I'm committed to curtailing Microsoft's market share and resisting their software patent agenda | Jun 16 20:55 |
MinceR | pretty much the only time m$ isn't open about what they're doing is when they're making official statements | Jun 16 20:55 |
balzac | _Mutex_: too much of your topic is meta | Jun 16 20:56 |
balzac | talking about talking about something | Jun 16 20:56 |
MinceR | their actions, internal memos and less guarded statements speak for themselves | Jun 16 20:56 |
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_Mutex_ | then im sure you'll post or link your supporting evidance, as I do. | Jun 16 20:56 |
amd-linux | hi there, is Groklaw down only here or worldwide? DDosed? | Jun 16 20:56 |
balzac | _Mutex_: you're in a difficult position, trying to deny the obvious, that Microsoft is not good for the software industry in its present form. | Jun 16 20:56 |
MinceR | m$ is a band of criminals who have shown that they have no intent to recognize the error of their ways despite being called on it numerous times | Jun 16 20:57 |
MinceR | they must be stopped from operating and punished | Jun 16 20:57 |
balzac | MinceR: that's a generalization | Jun 16 20:57 |
MinceR | an example must be made of them | Jun 16 20:57 |
amd-linux | ms is not a homogenous amount of people | Jun 16 20:57 |
balzac | the vast majority of Microsoft's staff is not breaking any law. | Jun 16 20:57 |
amd-linux | there are even foss supporter in MS | Jun 16 20:57 |
_Mutex_ | I have not denyed a thing, whendid I ever say MS is good or not for the software industry ?? please show me of be called out for FUDing | Jun 16 20:57 |
MinceR | well, i would imagine that their leaders are in control | Jun 16 20:57 |
amd-linux | REAL foss supporters | Jun 16 20:57 |
MinceR | ballmer, gates, allen, and probably a few more people | Jun 16 20:57 |
balzac | _Mutex_: you're one-sided, playing a 1-string guitar. | Jun 16 20:57 |
amd-linux | it is their upper management and their marketing and sales dept | Jun 16 20:58 |
MinceR | i'd really like to see if they can make a case for themselves | Jun 16 20:58 |
schestowitz | balzac: funnt video | Jun 16 20:58 |
MinceR | if they can provide good arguments why they shouldn't be dealt with very harshly | Jun 16 20:58 |
schestowitz | *funny | Jun 16 20:58 |
balzac | MinceR: I'm not concerned with this kind of "crime" where lobbyists corrupt the process and the regulators. | Jun 16 20:58 |
_Mutex_ | substantiate your claims, | Jun 16 20:58 |
MinceR | balzac: i am, because i know what IT affects | Jun 16 20:58 |
balzac | schestowitz: that's my celebration song for MS decline | Jun 16 20:58 |
schestowitz | amd-linux: GL loads up here just fine | Jun 16 20:58 |
MinceR | IT affects science, engineering and society | Jun 16 20:58 |
schestowitz | balzac: I don't see the parallels | Jun 16 20:59 |
balzac | MinceR: first I want to see torturers and war criminals dealt with using criminal law | Jun 16 20:59 |
MinceR | whoever has complete control over IT (which m$ was always aiming for) gets to control the entire human society | Jun 16 20:59 |
MinceR | balzac: i still think that the temporal order in which criminals are punished is irrelevant | Jun 16 20:59 |
balzac | Microsoft should be defeated by regulations, but it would be very strange and improbable for criminal prosecutions to arise from this situation | Jun 16 20:59 |
_Mutex_ | sweeping !! really gets control of human society WOW. really | Jun 16 20:59 |
balzac | they've been allowed to buy their way into our government and schools | Jun 16 20:59 |
amd-linux | ok, then it is a network issue here TY | Jun 16 20:59 |
MinceR | balzac: also, i'm not that up-to-date about what all usanian war criminals did, because i don't live in the usa | Jun 16 21:00 |
_Mutex_ | the ENTIRE human society wow even more | Jun 16 21:00 |
balzac | first congress has to be criminally prosecuted for allowing MS to buy them | Jun 16 21:00 |
schestowitz | ITWire became whores for MS | Jun 16 21:00 |
schestowitz | Their sites is full of Microsoft rubbish (ads and content) | Jun 16 21:00 |
_Mutex_ | LOL prosecute congress,, good luck with that | Jun 16 21:00 |
balzac | but we're not even going to get the 100+ criminal convictions of members of congress which is objectively justifiable | Jun 16 21:00 |
MinceR | balzac: i think you already know that i care about truth and justice infinitely more than about law :) | Jun 16 21:00 |
_Mutex_ | how can you care about justice and not about law ?? | Jun 16 21:01 |
MinceR | law should serve justice, not the other way around | Jun 16 21:01 |
balzac | good question | Jun 16 21:01 |
_Mutex_ | ever heard of the judicial system | Jun 16 21:01 |
MinceR | law is nothing more than just a tool | Jun 16 21:01 |
balzac | without law, you have jungle rules | Jun 16 21:01 |
MinceR | and currently it doesn't serve its goal, it serves itself | Jun 16 21:01 |
_Mutex_ | yes, a tool used by the judicial system to enforce and uphold the law. | Jun 16 21:01 |
MinceR | i'd rather have jungle rules than the rules they're forcing on me | Jun 16 21:01 |
_Mutex_ | so its the very fabric of society that you disagree with ,, ok,, ic. | Jun 16 21:02 |
balzac | "The wheels of justice turn slowly but grind exceedingly fine" - ever hear that saying MinceR ? | Jun 16 21:02 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: so you're saying the purpose of the law is itself? | Jun 16 21:02 |
MinceR | balzac: nope | Jun 16 21:02 |
_Mutex_ | Do I have to explain to you what the purpose of the law is ?? really ?? i mean really ?? | Jun 16 21:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wikileaks calls ProjectWhistleBlower site 'scam' < http://ping.fm/3i9Oz > | Jun 16 21:02 | |
balzac | the counter point to that saying is this: "justice delayed is justice denied." | Jun 16 21:02 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: apparently you've already explained what you think it is | Jun 16 21:03 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: and by those terms it is utterly useless | Jun 16 21:03 |
_Mutex_ | no i explained what it is, | Jun 16 21:03 |
_Mutex_ | not what I think it is | Jun 16 21:03 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: of course, after all you're the final authority on what is real | Jun 16 21:03 |
MinceR | aren't you? | Jun 16 21:03 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: even though you can't reason convincingly, we're supposed to take every word you say as the ultimate truth | Jun 16 21:04 |
_Mutex_ | I guess i am here then yes, :) | Jun 16 21:04 |
balzac | Anyways, it adds more heat than light when you use sweeping generalizations | Jun 16 21:04 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: then i have no more questions to you :> | Jun 16 21:04 |
MinceR | balzac: i try to use generalizations that are correct | Jun 16 21:04 |
balzac | Microsoft has broken laws, but with the corporate system of disassociation of responsibility, good luck pinning it on an individual within Microsoft. | Jun 16 21:04 |
_Mutex_ | allright explain to me please where I am wrong, you are welcome to quote me | Jun 16 21:04 |
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balzac | It's the kind of thing they can be fined for in a civil suit, probably a class-action suit. | Jun 16 21:05 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: you keep saying falsehoods as if they were facts and when called upon, you can't prove anything, can't explain anything and can't argue for your points | Jun 16 21:05 |
schestowitz | US PC makers in 'stolen code' row < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8101978.stm > Written by the MS lackey | Jun 16 21:05 |
_Mutex_ | qute fausehoods I have said then | Jun 16 21:05 |
balzac | but as often as not, the fine costs less than the profits | Jun 16 21:05 |
MinceR | balzac: a suit won't do anything if m$ has already bought the judicial system | Jun 16 21:06 |
schestowitz | If? | Jun 16 21:06 |
schestowitz | Not just /this/ system | Jun 16 21:06 |
schestowitz | A lot of this happened in the late 90s | Jun 16 21:06 |
schestowitz | Due to the Netscape trial | Jun 16 21:06 |
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balzac | MinceR: we have to resist them on all fronts, judicial, media, competition | Jun 16 21:06 |
schestowitz | And I'm filing a complaint as soon as I find the time to buy more stamps | Jun 16 21:06 |
MinceR | balzac: right, but the odds are tilted against us already | Jun 16 21:07 |
schestowitz | Microsoft causes trouble even to journalists whom they don't like | Jun 16 21:07 |
schestowitz | Remember Quinn? | Jun 16 21:07 |
schestowitz | Peter? | Jun 16 21:07 |
_Mutex_ | so MinceR, what falsehoods have I said please ? | Jun 16 21:07 |
schestowitz | How about Judge Jackson? | Jun 16 21:07 |
schestowitz | I wrote about it on sunday | Jun 16 21:07 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: i'm not going to list all of them | Jun 16 21:07 |
_Mutex_ | list ONE :) | Jun 16 21:07 |
_Mutex_ | if you can | Jun 16 21:07 |
_Mutex_ | if not, dont say it, | Jun 16 21:08 |
_Mutex_ | cat got your tongue ? | Jun 16 21:08 |
schestowitz | MinceR: balzac has been a regular in FS Daily for a long time (that's where I saw him ages ago). He ain't your foe | Jun 16 21:09 |
schestowitz | Let's divert attention where it belongs | Jun 16 21:09 |
balzac | "proving" doesn't work when people don't share some objective understandings in common | Jun 16 21:09 |
schestowitz | Like the guy who spies on us, benJIman | Jun 16 21:09 |
schestowitz | Daemonfc (ryan) gave these guys hell: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271793/foxconn-inferno-katana | Jun 16 21:10 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: 173746 < _Mutex_> Yes, it is, fully GPL'd | Jun 16 21:11 |
MinceR | for a simple and obvious one | Jun 16 21:11 |
MinceR | schestowitz: well, he keeps acting like he is | Jun 16 21:11 |
schestowitz | Lord of the [hacker] rings: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1271792/hacker-ring-shut | Jun 16 21:11 |
_Mutex_ | fortunately the truth is the truth, stands on its own rights, and if you see an untruth, you should easily be able to show it as such, and I ask you to do that, show where I have not spoken the truth that can be supported and I will retract the statement but I ask you are you silent. | Jun 16 21:11 |
MinceR | schestowitz: what are we supposed to do about benJIman? he doesn't even talk. if you want to get rid of him, kickban him. | Jun 16 21:12 |
_Mutex_ | what ??? 173746 whats that ? | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | schestowitz: though if he's here to spy, he can still read the public logs. | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: that's a timestamp | Jun 16 21:12 |
balzac | _Mutex_ seems to repeat a point which has already been refuted one or more times afterward | Jun 16 21:12 |
schestowitz | MinceR: not in RT | Jun 16 21:12 |
_Mutex_ | what did I say, Mono is fully GPLd ?? | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | schestowitz: is that important? | Jun 16 21:12 |
schestowitz | He brings reinforcement when it heats up | Jun 16 21:12 |
schestowitz | Nope | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | well, i guess it could be important | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | i see | Jun 16 21:12 |
MinceR | well, then kickban him, problem solved :> | Jun 16 21:12 |
balzac | well, also there's the refusal to discriminate between GPLv2 and GPLv3 | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | No, we don't do that | Jun 16 21:13 |
MinceR | i know | Jun 16 21:13 |
MinceR | and i know it causes more trouble than it solves | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | Same with deletion of comments | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | Hypo. scenario | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | [hypothetical] | Jun 16 21:13 |
MinceR | what i don't see is why is it worth doing then | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | Sounds like hippo | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | I delete comment | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | The person changes name | Jun 16 21:13 |
schestowitz | I delete the new comment, then block | Jun 16 21:14 |
schestowitz | person changes IP, comments again.. | Jun 16 21:14 |
MinceR | you could ban by ip address, ip range, username, perhaps even realname | Jun 16 21:14 |
schestowitz | So no censorship, abuse is more fierce due to deletion | Jun 16 21:14 |
MinceR | and ban again if he comes back anyway and starts to troll or invite trolls | Jun 16 21:14 |
schestowitz | And reputation declines due to an assumption of censored viewed | Jun 16 21:14 |
schestowitz | *views | Jun 16 21:14 |
balzac | _Mutex_: if two academic types debate in a forthright manner, they don't ever pretend to be ignorant of something, nor do they hope to take advantage of ignorance in the debate to gain the illusion of winning. | Jun 16 21:14 |
MinceR | they spread all kinds of shit about us anyway | Jun 16 21:14 |
schestowitz | MinceR: no, I refer to site comments | Jun 16 21:15 |
MinceR | we might as well have a channel where useful discussion can happen then | Jun 16 21:15 |
trmanco | http://www.computerworlduk.com/toolbox/open-source/open-source-business/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsId=15246 | Jun 16 21:15 |
schestowitz | I thought splosion was here to cause a lot of trouble when he emitted racist remarks | Jun 16 21:15 |
MinceR | instead of trolls threadcrapping for days | Jun 16 21:15 |
balzac | _Mutex_: but in the business of public relations, perception management, manufacturing consent, academic standards and ethical standards are ignored. | Jun 16 21:15 |
schestowitz | Sometimes you can't judge based on small samples | Jun 16 21:15 |
MinceR | and bringing up the same lies and false arguments over and over | Jun 16 21:15 |
schestowitz | I often see people pouncing on alleged trolls who are not | Jun 16 21:15 |
schestowitz | Some thing oiaohm is a troll | Jun 16 21:15 |
_Mutex_ | I agree MinceR, and I asked you to show me where I did not talk the truth, you said the list was too long, I asked you for one example, and you gave me mono is GPLd. well it is, so ? | Jun 16 21:16 |
schestowitz | You need broad samples to judge from | Jun 16 21:16 |
MinceR | how much time needs to pass for a sufficient sample, then? | Jun 16 21:16 |
schestowitz | Depends on severity | Jun 16 21:16 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: no, it isn't. read the mono faq on licensing which i have already linked. | Jun 16 21:16 |
schestowitz | We actually had many trolls here one year ago | Jun 16 21:17 |
schestowitz | They vanished later | Jun 16 21:17 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: also, it's really useless to quote and link things you request because you just go ahead and ignore it | Jun 16 21:17 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: just like you just did | Jun 16 21:17 |
schestowitz | The channel is just over 1 year old | Jun 16 21:17 |
_Mutex_ | gee RMS says it's under GPL, so does OSI, so does the license you agree too when you install mono, thats probably what led me to believe its under the GPL, | Jun 16 21:17 |
MinceR | schestowitz: so you're just hoping the trolls will get tired before we do? | Jun 16 21:17 |
_Mutex_ | mabey RMS is wrong, but I doubt it somehow. | Jun 16 21:17 |
schestowitz | China nods to monopoly... Chinese Chip Project Licenses MIPS Architecture < http://www.pcworld.com/article/166669/chinese_chip_project_licenses_mips_architecture.html > | Jun 16 21:18 |
balzac | MinceR: victory is inevitable | Jun 16 21:18 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: read the official mono page. | Jun 16 21:18 |
schestowitz | Good thins is, MIPS will give em more Linux | Jun 16 21:18 |
schestowitz | *thing | Jun 16 21:18 |
_Mutex_ | I would prefer to read the Mono license | Jun 16 21:18 |
MinceR | balzac: how many brain cells does it need to cost? | Jun 16 21:18 |
balzac | well, I don't know if that's safe to say | Jun 16 21:18 |
_Mutex_ | the one you agree too, the legal binding one, not a FAQ | Jun 16 21:18 |
MinceR | balzac: how many clueful users do we have to let the trolls exhaust until then? | Jun 16 21:18 |
balzac | MinceR: you should read the Tao Te Ching | Jun 16 21:18 |
_Mutex_ | FAQ's dont tend to be legally binding, | Jun 16 21:18 |
balzac | MinceR: that's for schestowitz to decide | Jun 16 21:18 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: then it must be just an ornament to fill the site | Jun 16 21:19 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: maybe they had too much free space on the web server or something | Jun 16 21:19 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: why don't you go and ask miguel why they're lying on their own site then? | Jun 16 21:19 |
balzac | if he thinks a person is regurgitating falsehoods, maybe he'll ban them in spite of them not being verbally abusive | Jun 16 21:19 |
_Mutex_ | I dontknow, all im saying when I read the license for mono, its says GPL | Jun 16 21:19 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: well duh, one of the licenses that apply to parts of it is gpl | Jun 16 21:19 |
schestowitz | balzac: no, we only kicked for abuse | Jun 16 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | thats about it, end of story, you check the box saying you agree with the GPL and off you go, | Jun 16 21:20 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: just like the faq says | Jun 16 21:20 |
schestowitz | daemonfc got banned once | Jun 16 21:20 |
schestowitz | For behaving like a prick | Jun 16 21:20 |
schestowitz | Not for arguments | Jun 16 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | BTW: the FAQ site also says GPL | Jun 16 21:20 |
MinceR | well, trolls rarely bring up arguments | Jun 16 21:20 |
MinceR | they just regurgitate lies | Jun 16 21:20 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: look up the meaning of the word "also" in a dictionary. | Jun 16 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | you have every right to call them out if you see them lie | Jun 16 21:20 |
balzac | schestowitz: If I were an OP, I might kick for arbitrary reasons, just to remind people that it's not their living room | Jun 16 21:20 |
MinceR | lol | Jun 16 21:20 |
_Mutex_ | I actually also know what also means, | Jun 16 21:21 |
schestowitz | daemonfc's article were not the proiblem | Jun 16 21:21 |
MinceR | balzac: i wouldn't do that | Jun 16 21:21 |
_Mutex_ | it does not mean "NOT" | Jun 16 21:21 |
schestowitz | He goes around slamming groups and uses this as a platform | Jun 16 21:21 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: the question was not what it doesn't mean, it was what it does mean. | Jun 16 21:21 |
schestowitz | Like cursing some x-ians groups for being homophobic | Jun 16 21:21 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: it also does not mean "walrus" or "book". | Jun 16 21:21 |
_Mutex_ | the meaning of the GPLVx is quite clear | Jun 16 21:21 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: apparently not quite so clear | Jun 16 21:22 |
_Mutex_ | thats an issue with the GPL then | Jun 16 21:22 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: or it's an issue with you | Jun 16 21:22 |
schestowitz | I'm tired of heating about Bellini | Jun 16 21:22 |
_Mutex_ | Im not the GPL | Jun 16 21:22 |
schestowitz | And Egbert | Jun 16 21:22 |
schestowitz | They are like queen ants | Jun 16 21:22 |
schestowitz | Treated like goddesses on Linux, which they don't use of understand | Jun 16 21:23 |
MinceR | _Mutex_: that's true | Jun 16 21:23 |
schestowitz | And little trooper ant warriors work to feed big fat aueen ant | Jun 16 21:23 |
schestowitz | http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/06/11/ubs-software-analyst-bellini-to-join-isi-group/#mod=yahoobarrons | Jun 16 21:23 |
schestowitz | They treat analysts like brain i a jar | Jun 16 21:23 |
schestowitz | With shrines made for them | Jun 16 21:23 |
MinceR | lol | Jun 16 21:24 |
schestowitz | ping zoobab01 | Jun 16 21:25 |
schestowitz | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6094774460.html?kc=rss | Jun 16 21:26 |
schestowitz | Firefox is being a pain | Jun 16 21:27 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] First look: Ubuntu 9.10 alpha 2 brings Ext4, GRUB 2: http://is.gd/13LBt | Jun 16 21:27 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quintiles, SAS, Red Hat among ‘100 Best Places to Work in IT” http://ping.fm/LXsrh And still hiring | Jun 16 21:27 | |
schestowitz | Can I set somewhere the cache value? | Jun 16 21:27 |
*neonfloor has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 16 21:28 | |
schestowitz | To limit, say, amount of memory for closed pages/tabs? | Jun 16 21:28 |
schestowitz | It now uses 700MB virtual (500MB practically). That's a lot for two frickin' tabs | Jun 16 21:28 |
_Mutex_ | doesnt it have that config url you can use ? | Jun 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | http://www.lifespy.com/2007/firefox-quick-tip-limit-ram-usage/ | Jun 16 21:29 |
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MinceR | doesn't appear in my ff | Jun 16 21:30 |
MinceR | 3.0.11 | Jun 16 21:30 |
MinceR | otherwise it would be nice | Jun 16 21:31 |
schestowitz | It's there | Jun 16 21:32 |
schestowitz | Changed it to 264 | Jun 16 21:32 |
MinceR | oh, they say i can create it | Jun 16 21:34 |
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schestowitz | Don't try | Jun 16 21:35 |
schestowitz | It should be there | Jun 16 21:35 |
schestowitz | Maybe a variation | Jun 16 21:35 |
schestowitz | Filter by things up the tree | Jun 16 21:35 |
schestowitz | I just copies and pasted in into the filter bar | Jun 16 21:35 |
schestowitz | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?t=733351&goto=newpost | Jun 16 21:37 |
schestowitz | Interesting name for a distro. Calculate. | Jun 16 21:37 |
schestowitz | H-P is still fawning for the tainted SLES... http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/06/15/hp_debian_ubuntu_support/ | Jun 16 21:39 |
MinceR | they love m$ so they can't get away from novell. | Jun 16 21:39 |
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schestowitz | PetoKraus: when do you come to MEN? | Jun 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | M.E.N. Arena. | Jun 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | MinceR: Novell is a de facto MS department for the 'commie code' | Jun 16 21:41 |
MinceR | i know | Jun 16 21:41 |
MinceR | i said "novell" so that the trolls lurking here will understand too | Jun 16 21:41 |
MinceR | :) | Jun 16 21:41 |
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schestowitz | BNc crashed | Jun 16 21:44 |
schestowitz | Won't restart | Jun 16 21:44 |
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schestowitz | Maybe trmanco pushed in some funny Portuguese accents;-) | Jun 16 21:45 |
MinceR | does it give the same error message as above? | Jun 16 21:45 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 16 21:45 |
MinceR | :) | Jun 16 21:45 |
MinceR | i think it's having problems with its input | Jun 16 21:45 |
trmanco | oops | Jun 16 21:45 |
MinceR | does it get JSON? | Jun 16 21:45 |
schestowitz | trmanco: I was joking | Jun 16 21:45 |
trmanco | but I get a similar erro on twitter | Jun 16 21:46 |
trmanco | ValueError: Expecting object: line 1 column 11 (char 11) | Jun 16 21:46 |
trmanco | error,gwibber | Jun 16 21:46 |
schestowitz | Novell tries to replace GNU/Linux with Microsoft patent coupons. http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/06/15/novell-suse-linux-training-plus-red | Jun 16 21:46 |
trmanco | from twitter | Jun 16 21:46 |
schestowitz | trmanco: DTwitter fail? | Jun 16 21:46 |
trmanco | yeah, I guess so | Jun 16 21:46 |
schestowitz | "Twitter is currently down for maintenance." | Jun 16 21:46 |
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schestowitz | Ah | Jun 16 21:46 |
schestowitz | Epic! | Jun 16 21:46 |
trmanco | ah | Jun 16 21:47 |
trmanco | weird | Jun 16 21:47 |
schestowitz | "oh my god. They killed BNc. You B*stards!" | Jun 16 21:47 |
trmanco | lol | Jun 16 21:48 |
schestowitz | A group with MS connections puts money in SCO http://www.sltrib.com/technology/ci_12595750 http://www.h-online.com/open/SCO-vs-Linux-New-investor-rescues-SCO-from-bankruptcy--/news/113540 | Jun 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | The Linux UI future; more complex than ever http://www.h-online.com/open/The-Linux-UI-future-more-complex-than-ever--/features/113533 fan alert http://www.linuxloop.com/news/2009/06/16/one-hundred-papercuts-the-most-exciting-thing-since-the-last-thing-canonical-did/ | Jun 16 21:55 |
neighborlee_ | what on earth is going on with debian ;))..what kind of koolaid are they using man I dont want any ...ive never seen such weird rationals to install tomboy, such that because there is alternative TO tomboy??,,is this some form of french joke ? ;)) | Jun 16 21:56 |
schestowitz | No | Jun 16 21:56 |
schestowitz | Moulette | Jun 16 21:56 |
neighborlee_ | yes, I know. | Jun 16 21:56 |
schestowitz | He was her all morning | Jun 16 21:56 |
schestowitz | Cursing and all. | Jun 16 21:56 |
neighborlee_ | is he a debian dev/maintainer ? | Jun 16 21:57 |
schestowitz | *here | Jun 16 21:57 |
neighborlee_ | what nick | Jun 16 21:57 |
schestowitz | DD | Jun 16 21:57 |
neighborlee_ | ahhhhh | Jun 16 21:57 |
neighborlee_ | debian dev ? | Jun 16 21:57 |
schestowitz | <Np237> | Jun 16 21:57 |
neighborlee_ | is he a dev | Jun 16 21:57 |
schestowitz | AFAIK | Jun 16 21:57 |
neighborlee_ | and he was here , cursing.. | Jun 16 21:58 |
_Mutex_ | what connection does the carlyle group what with MS, or stephen Norris ? | Jun 16 21:58 |
_Mutex_ | have with MS ? | Jun 16 21:58 |
neighborlee_ | schestowitz, thx I had no idea that nick was him | Jun 16 21:58 |
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schestowitz | _Mutex_: did you not see Sunday's post? | Jun 16 21:59 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/15/sco-alexis-de-tocqueville/ | Jun 16 21:59 |
neighborlee_ | schestowitz, now his at titude makes perfect sense.. | Jun 16 21:59 |
_Mutex_ | no I just looked up him and his group, and his investments and his business dealings, and I did not see MS mentioned at all, (not to say he doesnt) but I cant find it yet, if it is its not a strong connection, Ill keep looking. | Jun 16 22:00 |
schestowitz | GL coverage; http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090615122117389 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090615122117389 | Jun 16 22:02 |
schestowitz | After the Hearing: Reports From Our Eyewitnesses http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090615195402823 | Jun 16 22:03 |
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schestowitz | _Mutex_: look at BayStar | Jun 16 22:03 |
schestowitz | Wouldn't be unprecedented | Jun 16 22:03 |
schestowitz | See also my links in my posts | Jun 16 22:03 |
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schestowitz | I have many things documented | Jun 16 22:03 |
schestowitz | GL gets a lot of traffic right now | Jun 16 22:04 |
schestowitz | That's probably when it was down | Jun 16 22:04 |
schestowitz | amdlinux couldn't reach it | Jun 16 22:04 |
_Mutex_ | bay star communications ? | Jun 16 22:04 |
schestowitz | See URLs | Jun 16 22:05 |
schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090615195402823 | Jun 16 22:05 |
schestowitz | And | Jun 16 22:05 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/15/sco-alexis-de-tocqueville/ | Jun 16 22:05 |
schestowitz | "Avoiding meat one day a week could reduce global warming, since producing meat causes almost 20% of greenhouse gas emission." < http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#16%20June%202009%20%28Save%20animals%2C%20save%20the%20atmosphere%29 > http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/jun/15/paul-mccartney-meat-free-monday | Jun 16 22:06 |
schestowitz | Paul McCartney being lame | Jun 16 22:07 |
schestowitz | Why cut it just one day a week | Jun 16 22:07 |
schestowitz | It's like saying, smoking's OK, but not on Tuesday | Jun 16 22:07 |
maxstirner1 | are you a vegetarian these days? | Jun 16 22:08 |
neighborlee_ | yes | Jun 16 22:09 |
neighborlee_ | :) | Jun 16 22:09 |
*neighborlee_ is now known as neighborlee | Jun 16 22:09 | |
maxstirner1 | schestowitz: ? | Jun 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | ACK | Jun 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | Oh. | Jun 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | No. | Jun 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | I eat fish | Jun 16 22:09 |
maxstirner1 | well done.. i've dabbled in pacifism at some point | Jun 16 22:09 |
maxstirner1 | not in nam of course | Jun 16 22:09 |
maxstirner1 | oh i see.. i consider that vegetarian | Jun 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | Why well done? | Jun 16 22:10 |
schestowitz | Fish doesn't make it OK. | Jun 16 22:10 |
schestowitz | But it's nature. | Jun 16 22:10 |
maxstirner1 | well done neighborlee who said hes vegetarian above | Jun 16 22:10 |
schestowitz | We kill plant or animals to get energy | Jun 16 22:10 |
maxstirner1 | agree with the ethics but the body is weak ;) | Jun 16 22:10 |
schestowitz | Our digestive system ain't good with fossil fuel | Jun 16 22:10 |
neighborlee | hehe | Jun 16 22:10 |
neighborlee | hey well | Jun 16 22:10 |
maxstirner1 | i let the plants off instead ;) | Jun 16 22:10 |
neighborlee | it did not happen overnight | Jun 16 22:10 |
maxstirner1 | fossil fuel is running out anyway | Jun 16 22:10 |
_Mutex_ | gee the link between stephen norris and MS if very tenous, its sounds a bit like 6 degrees of freedom, he has delt with one company that deals with another company that deals with MS !! | Jun 16 22:10 |
neighborlee | it was years basically before I removed all meat..all of it | Jun 16 22:11 |
schestowitz | Funitarian | Jun 16 22:11 |
_Mutex_ | is there any stronger link between the two, or some very look business connections ? | Jun 16 22:11 |
schestowitz | Faunitarian | Jun 16 22:11 |
neighborlee | maxstirner1, thx though for compliment..if does feel good knowing im living a pacifistic lifestyle | Jun 16 22:11 |
schestowitz | Preventing killing of innocent plants | Jun 16 22:11 |
maxstirner1 | neighborlee: that was the quote for the occasion from the big lebowski ;) | Jun 16 22:11 |
schestowitz | maxstirner1: OK, so maybe we can run on gas | Jun 16 22:11 |
schestowitz | It can be recycled | Jun 16 22:12 |
maxstirner1 | hehehehe doubt it | Jun 16 22:12 |
schestowitz | _Mutex_: see all the links (URLs) | Jun 16 22:12 |
maxstirner1 | but the industrial agriculture sustaining our overpopulated meat-eating planet is heavily dependent on fossil fuels isnt it.. | Jun 16 22:12 |
schestowitz | bayStar had no MS links | Jun 16 22:12 |
_Mutex_ | I did, and followed them too, | Jun 16 22:13 |
maxstirner1 | fertilizer is made from gas actually i think.. | Jun 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | Although I sent PJ a good Goildfarb video where he talks about MS | Jun 16 22:13 |
neighborlee | I really dig henry bailey stevens..in part to him is why im a a non meat eater...I love his philosophy and completey agree with i t | Jun 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | And he said MS instructed him | Jun 16 22:13 |
_Mutex_ | I really did try to link them two together, but I just cant. | Jun 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | MS would go to those who seem distant | Jun 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | It's safer | Jun 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | '"Independent" consultants should write columns and articles, give conference presentations and moderate stacked panels, all on our behalf (and setting them up as experts in the new technology, available for just $200/hour). "Independent" academic sources should be cultivated and quoted (and research money granted).' | Jun 16 22:14 |
schestowitz | --Microsoft, internal document < http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/comes-3096.pdf > | Jun 16 22:14 |
schestowitz | But wait.. | Jun 16 22:14 |
schestowitz | I miss the key part | Jun 16 22:14 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/30/evangelism-is-war-memo/ | Jun 16 22:15 |
schestowitz | "Consultants: These guys are your best bets as moderators. Get a well-known consultant on your side early, but don’t let him publish anything blatantly pro-Microsoft. Then, get him to propose himself to the conference organizers as a moderator, whenever a panel opportunity comes up." | Jun 16 22:15 |
_Mutex_ | you really think info that is almost 10 years old if valid ? | Jun 16 22:15 |
schestowitz | "Since he’s well-known, but apparently independent, he’ll be accepted - one less thing for the constantly-overworked conference organizer to worry about, right?" | Jun 16 22:16 |
schestowitz | _Mutex_: it is | Jun 16 22:16 |
schestowitz | “It could be argued that Microsoft’s unethical Technology Evangelism (TE) practices are “old news”—i.e., that Microsoft stopped using these questionable TE practices long ago. This is very unlikely to be the case, for at least three reasons.” http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/microsoft-shills-aka-te-secrets/ | Jun 16 22:16 |
schestowitz | –James Plamondon, former Microsoft shill (aka ‘Technology Evangelist’) | Jun 16 22:16 |
maxstirner1 | the business practices are most likely standard | Jun 16 22:16 |
_Mutex_ | might be for some, but it indicates that there is not much actual up to date things to complain about. | Jun 16 22:16 |
maxstirner1 | isnt that what happened on ooxml | Jun 16 22:16 |
maxstirner1 | they had lots of seemingly impartial people who looooooved their ooxml coming along | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | He wrote this in 2008 | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | That it is still happening | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | And all their OOXML lackeys show this | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | Bunch of sellouts | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | "Analysts: Analysts sell out - that’s their business model But they are very concerned that they never look like they are selling out, so that makes them very prickly to work with." | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | We’re here to help Microsoft | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | # Microsoft pays our wages | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | # Microsoft provides our stock options | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | # Microsoft pays our expenses | Jun 16 22:17 |
schestowitz | # Mission. Establish Microsoft platforms as de facto standards | Jun 16 22:18 |
schestowitz | [Hence Mono] | Jun 16 22:18 |
schestowitz | [hence Moon Lie] | Jun 16 22:18 |
maxstirner1 | i found their positions astonishing, noone in their right mind would have taken the ooxml position considering hte technical merits.. i don't buy a lot of conspiracy theories, but sometimes its fair to conclude theres a hidden agenda | Jun 16 22:18 |
schestowitz | Cartoon: http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/bizarre_cathedral_45 . Enjoy. | Jun 16 22:19 |
neighborlee | maxstirner1, yes well..some of us havent yet drank the koolaid | Jun 16 22:19 |
schestowitz | maxstirner1: not agenda, $$$$$$$$ | Jun 16 22:19 |
maxstirner1 | yes, i'm not even sure regarding the mono patent trap, maybe the poor sods are just trying to save themselves into the future age | Jun 16 22:19 |
maxstirner1 | have a stake in development | Jun 16 22:19 |
schestowitz | Ubuntu has a stake in MSFT | Jun 16 22:19 |
schestowitz | Had .NET died... | Jun 16 22:19 |
maxstirner1 | they could turn into a humble little company providing development platforms for linux | Jun 16 22:19 |
schestowitz | Same with Appal | Jun 16 22:20 |
maxstirner1 | what stake? | Jun 16 22:20 |
maxstirner1 | financial? | Jun 16 22:20 |
neighborlee | o_0 | Jun 16 22:20 |
schestowitz | Appalling and Mugabesoft | Jun 16 22:20 |
maxstirner1 | nice cartoon :D although i'm not sure whether sarge -> lenny was that drastic either | Jun 16 22:21 |
_Mutex_ | "No one is forced to adopt out standards at the barrel of a gun. We can only convince, not COMPEL.. Those who adopt out standards do so as a retional decision to serve their own ends, whatever those may be. " (just like the Centronics "standard") or any other defacto standard, like VHS video's I guess. | Jun 16 22:21 |
schestowitz | That's new.......... http://lifehacker.com/5291172/hawkscope-navigates-your-hard-drive-through-a-drill+down-menu | Jun 16 22:24 |
schestowitz | maxstirner1: no, no fireworks | Jun 16 22:25 |
schestowitz | Better than downgrading from XP to Vista | Jun 16 22:25 |
schestowitz | Alas. | Jun 16 22:25 |
maxstirner1 | i guess.. no nasty surprises | Jun 16 22:25 |
schestowitz | Real product to be or just attention-seeking from Arrington? http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/06/crunchpad-prototype/ | Jun 16 22:26 |
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trmanco | schestowitz, twitter is back | Jun 16 22:35 |
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tacone | turns out the f-spot port was just disinformation. but seems a good alternative http://www.stefanoforenza.com/solang-is-a-new-photo-manager/ | Jun 16 22:38 |
trmanco | yep, saw that already :-P | Jun 16 22:43 |
schestowitz | *LMAO* Windows Turd Edition for 30 quid. http://www.techspot.com/news/35093-Windows-7-Starter-Edition-priced-at-4555.html | Jun 16 22:44 |
schestowitz | Who would be retarded enough to buy the th1ng | Jun 16 22:45 |
schestowitz | ? | Jun 16 22:45 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, ic what you mean now: Np237 Says: | Jun 16 22:45 |
neighborlee | June 12, 2009 at 7:47 pm | Reply | Jun 16 22:45 |
neighborlee | WTF is that shit? Don’t you have anything better to do than trolling around? ,,,are you sure its JM or just that he directly responds to joss via robertmh ? | Jun 16 22:45 |
schestowitz | It's him. | Jun 16 22:46 |
neighborlee | http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/mono-in-the-default-install/ < here | Jun 16 22:46 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, ah ok | Jun 16 22:46 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, why does the trend of abusive language not ring louder..it really should..ive never seen such filthy langauge than from these individuals | Jun 16 22:46 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, if they really are MS paid ,,man they really need to do better interviewing ;) | Jun 16 22:46 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] HP turns back to Ubuntu http://ping.fm/CynAn Big Blue ain't http://ping.fm/ROy3m | Jun 16 22:47 | |
neighborlee | schestowitz, not to mention someone like that having ANY influence whatsoever over debian policy | Jun 16 22:47 |
schestowitz | Here is a Forbes article that's wrong right from the HEADLINE: http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/15/solaris-oracle-sun-technology-cio-network-solaris.html | Jun 16 22:48 |
neighborlee | doesnt' really matter they are diggin their own proverbial graves | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | neighborlee: he drive away Debian women | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | IIRC | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | *drove | Jun 16 22:49 |
neighborlee | ahhhhhhh | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | neighborlee: it can be used against him | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | And he's too gutter for BN IRC | Jun 16 22:49 |
neighborlee | this is the guy that all that controversy was about ?? | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | Makes you think we got kindergarten kiddos here | Jun 16 22:49 |
schestowitz | Cursing and shouting | Jun 16 22:50 |
neighborlee | yes, it most certainly does. | Jun 16 22:50 |
neighborlee | but .,,that is a-tyical for mono supporters, isn't it | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | He doesn't even understabnd | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 16 22:50 |
neighborlee | anything else would be shocking | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | Hold on. | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | I wanna show you something | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-16-009-35-OP-SW-LL-0000 | Jun 16 22:50 |
schestowitz | "He describes his job: my responsibilities cover day-to-day user and systems support, as well as the design and implementation of new services and infrastructure to better serve the needs of our users. That's in his vita ( http://www2.apebox.org/data/cv.pdf) which is obviously pimping for a new job: If you feel you can pay better, and need a qualified geek, then you can take a peek at my Curriculum Vitae." | Jun 16 22:51 |
schestowitz | "In America we call that a Help Desk, which is usually occupied by several MSCEs." | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | adults know you cant shoot down someones opinion just by 'yelling'..only children believe that ;)) | Jun 16 22:51 |
schestowitz | But that's ad hominem anyway... | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | what a shame though for linux.it deserves BETTER | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | and it will have better. | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | thank you fedora. | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | :) | Jun 16 22:51 |
neighborlee | I still prefer mandriva in my heart..but fedora rocks for their bravery to rock the boat..I hope mandriva follows suit | Jun 16 22:52 |
neighborlee | hm | Jun 16 22:52 |
neighborlee | ahhhh nice article , ,, | Jun 16 22:53 |
neighborlee | yes see there..his attitude is making him right now..its defining him and welll if thats the road he wants to travel fine, but it wont hold up...fedora is showing that right now, and I suspect the tidal wave will only get bigger | Jun 16 22:55 |
neighborlee | which is why the more average people notice and speak out, the less likely this little trojan horse will be able to run through our gates ;)) | Jun 16 22:57 |
benJIman | Or you could stop attacking free software developers, and instead work on fixing the broken US patent system. | Jun 16 22:59 |
benJIman | And stop dragging down the rest of the world with the US's crazy laws. Their cryptography export laws already make it pretty much impossible to have an american company ship a free distribution. They have to stick clauses on to not export to afgahnistan et al, I don't see people calling to boycott Red Hat because of that. | Jun 16 23:00 |
neighborlee | benJIman, well isn't that nice of you ;) | Jun 16 23:00 |
schestowitz | He's here spying for SUSE | Jun 16 23:01 |
neighborlee | not to worry | Jun 16 23:01 |
schestowitz | Now wait for him to say "stop attacking!" | Jun 16 23:01 |
*neighborlee gets that totally | Jun 16 23:01 | |
schestowitz | He's here not to help | Jun 16 23:01 |
neighborlee | totally got that. | Jun 16 23:01 |
schestowitz | he's here to monitor with an evil eye | Jun 16 23:01 |
neighborlee | sadly..true..been there, seen that. | Jun 16 23:01 |
benJIman | No place for people who don't agree with the group think. | Jun 16 23:02 |
neighborlee | possibly | Jun 16 23:02 |
neighborlee | its a shame foss cant unite | Jun 16 23:02 |
neighborlee | but thats what a virus does..creates unhealth cells | Jun 16 23:02 |
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schestowitz | benJIman: we try to change USPTO | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | USPTO=people | Jun 16 23:03 |
benJIman | It's a shame the US has anti free software laws for patents and crypto export, but that doesn't affect the rest of the world. | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | Novell=people | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | Mcirosoft=people | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | OpenSUSE=people | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | To make motion people need sometimes be identified | Jun 16 23:03 |
schestowitz | In aprticular the obstacles | Jun 16 23:03 |
neighborlee | benJIman, is , so by that logic..only SOME groups are affected..who care then yes ?? | Jun 16 23:04 |
schestowitz | White-collared criminals like Jon Zuck | Jun 16 23:04 |
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benJIman | neighborlee: If you want to ship crippled software to americans I don't really care, but dragging down the rest of the world into the american failure is not desirable. | Jun 16 23:04 |
schestowitz | EPO is people too | Jun 16 23:04 |
schestowitz | And it's good that Allison Brimelow jumps ship | Jun 16 23:05 |
schestowitz | We now need to monitor who replaces her | Jun 16 23:05 |
schestowitz | it could get WORSE | Jun 16 23:05 |
schestowitz | The likes of Siemens would want to shove in cronies | Jun 16 23:05 |
schestowitz | That's just how _it works_.. or doesn't work | Jun 16 23:05 |
schestowitz | benJIman: re remark to neighborlee , you haven't paid attention to EPO, I suppose | Jun 16 23:06 |
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neighborlee | benJIman, so its ok to infect just som e people I take it..long as this group is clean.. | Jun 16 23:06 |
schestowitz | It's getting assimilated | Jun 16 23:06 |
schestowitz | Hey, wallclimber! | Jun 16 23:06 |
neighborlee | schestowitz, wasn't aware correct | Jun 16 23:06 |
schestowitz | wallclimber is our chief investigator *blush* | Jun 16 23:06 |
benJIman | neighborlee: Their laws cause them problems, not the software. | Jun 16 23:06 |
wallclimber | Hi Roy, I just sent two emails to you | Jun 16 23:06 |
schestowitz | Thanks. | Jun 16 23:06 |
benJIman | They could go and vote with their votes instead of complaining when the rest of the world doesn't care about patents. | Jun 16 23:07 |
schestowitz | I can post now if you prefer | Jun 16 23:07 |
wallclimber | I am? I thought I was just short and old... | Jun 16 23:07 |
schestowitz | At risk of falling asleep half way | Jun 16 23:07 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: I was being banter-minded | Jun 16 23:07 |
schestowitz | Did you see the fiaSCO? | Jun 16 23:07 |
wallclimber | I knew that, :) | Jun 16 23:07 |
neighborlee | wallclimber, hehe | Jun 16 23:08 |
schestowitz | Atteneded? | Jun 16 23:08 |
schestowitz | *Attended | Jun 16 23:08 |
schestowitz | Groklaw sends mystery people with three-letter alises :-) | Jun 16 23:08 |
schestowitz | *aliases | Jun 16 23:08 |
wallclimber | Yes, I was VERY grumpy with everyone yesterday that distracted me from checking GL | Jun 16 23:08 |
wallclimber | to see what was going to happen | Jun 16 23:08 |
schestowitz | GL was not accissible to some | Jun 16 23:09 |
schestowitz | One person from Germany at least | Jun 16 23:09 |
schestowitz | SCO stays around for us to mock it a little more | Jun 16 23:09 |
wallclimber | why, do you suppose it wouldn't be accessable? | Jun 16 23:09 |
schestowitz | And the Microsoft/Baystar confirmed conspiracy deepens | Jun 16 23:09 |
schestowitz | So SCO got the money for sure? | Jun 16 23:10 |
schestowitz | GL didn't confirm | Jun 16 23:10 |
schestowitz | But Tom "SCO fan" harvey rejoiced | Jun 16 23:10 |
schestowitz | And Heise seems confident, too | Jun 16 23:10 |
neighborlee | benJIman, point is why use something that is unnecessary in the first place,when worldwide linux users everywere could unite on real code from non aggressive companies that dont push patents that encumber foss | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | Meh. IEEE ICASSP keeps spamming people.. | Jun 16 23:11 |
wallclimber | who can know if sco gets money or not, it's all just on paper anyway, probably. they just needed delay | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | That's why I mentioned GL | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | And I sent you the quotes | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | They had the whole York thing before | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | Didn't materialise | Jun 16 23:11 |
wallclimber | i saw them, yes | Jun 16 23:11 |
benJIman | neighborlee: For some people the choice is using c# or not contributing to FOSS, I don't call that unnecessary. | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | But delay for what? | Jun 16 23:11 |
schestowitz | What motive? | Jun 16 23:11 |
wallclimber | I have a few theories of my own... | Jun 16 23:12 |
neighborlee | benJIman, gnotes is aperfect example of why its irrelvant at this juncture.... | Jun 16 23:12 |
benJIman | neighborlee: All technologies has their advantages and disadvantages, and in some sitautions .net is useful. | Jun 16 23:12 |
neighborlee | benJIman, gthumb is there to replace fspot..and the list continues | Jun 16 23:12 |
benJIman | neighborlee: Because it's possible to rewrite a trivial managed app in native code, oh really? | Jun 16 23:12 |
wallclimber | roy, i have to get back to work, just wanted to let you know there's some emails... | Jun 16 23:12 |
wallclimber | bye! | Jun 16 23:13 |
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neighborlee | benJIman, you can ask tim chase about that ;)) | Jun 16 23:13 |
benJIman | neighborlee: And you're ignoring that a) Some people only know one or few languages and won't bother contributing in another. b) Managed code is safer. c) Managed code can be faster. d) Choice of language/platform is often dictated by the library support & interoperability with required technologies than personal preference. | Jun 16 23:15 |
MinceR | for example, .net is useful... to micro$oft :> | Jun 16 23:15 |
MinceR | benJIman: how can managed code be faster? | Jun 16 23:16 |
MinceR | via JIT or other means? | Jun 16 23:16 |
benJIman | Because JIT has more information available for optimisation at runtime. | Jun 16 23:16 |
benJIman | Especially for long-lived systems like enterprise server side stuff. | Jun 16 23:16 |
MinceR | i thought that was already debunked. | Jun 16 23:16 |
schestowitz | benJIma.NET | Jun 16 23:16 |
schestowitz | Sorry, couldn't ,resist | Jun 16 23:17 |
MinceR | (AOT after real use profiling is supposed to be better) | Jun 16 23:17 |
*tacone has quit ("Leaving.") | Jun 16 23:17 | |
MinceR | (also, memory management issues with JIT) | Jun 16 23:17 |
benJIman | MinceR: I suggest you read some of the papers on the subject. | Jun 16 23:17 |
benJIman | If you're measuring hello world then sure JIT is not going to win. | Jun 16 23:18 |
benJIman | Real world applications are another matter. | Jun 16 23:18 |
MinceR | i'll bring it up when oiaohm is back. | Jun 16 23:18 |
MinceR | he talked about this once, iirc. | Jun 16 23:18 |
benJIman | Yes, he also keeps coming out with incorrect statements. | Jun 16 23:19 |
MinceR | as far as i can understand, the advantage of JIT comes from having data from real world use of the code | Jun 16 23:19 |
MinceR | which same data could be collected about a precompiled native executable and be used to optimize the next compilation. | Jun 16 23:19 |
MinceR | one could even do more iterations. | Jun 16 23:19 |
MinceR | and that way we can keep the memory pages containing code readonly and throw them away instead of swapping out. | Jun 16 23:20 |
schestowitz | Google applications don't use JIT | Jun 16 23:20 |
benJIman | It can identify and optimise hotspots during the application's lifetime, it can change the optimisations as the usage changes, it can make optimistic optimisations and then back them out when the assumptions are proven incorrect (at runtime) | Jun 16 23:20 |
schestowitz | They may be the future of lots of devdelopment | Jun 16 23:20 |
MinceR | benJIman: that's true but data collecting can happen without JIT | Jun 16 23:20 |
benJIman | MinceR: You're still stuck with static code until you recompile. | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | indeed. | Jun 16 23:21 |
mib_9c9tss | Mincer: the technology to do that has been around in Linux for over 10 years | Jun 16 23:21 |
mib_9c9tss | yet no one uses it | Jun 16 23:21 |
benJIman | And AoT can't do optimistic assumptions which is where the real power is. | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | but that isn't going to matter over the long term | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: which one? | Jun 16 23:21 |
mib_9c9tss | Nat Friedman wrote grope | Jun 16 23:21 |
mib_9c9tss | which does it for gcc | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | benJIman: what do you mean by "optimistic assumptions" | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: ic | Jun 16 23:21 |
MinceR | sounds interesting | Jun 16 23:21 |
schestowitz | http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-vocal-launches-new-ras-over-ip-device-service-/2009/06/15/4226603.htm "..may be used with any reasonable operating system, including Linux, for the implementation of RASoIP functionality." | Jun 16 23:22 |
MinceR | benJIman: ? (forgot that from my earlier statement addressed to you) | Jun 16 23:22 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Android to replace Garmin-Asus' current Linux platform http://ping.fm/tpx1O | Jun 16 23:22 | |
mib_9c9tss | (btw, oiahom got pwnd by MdI on that topic a few weeks ago on Jo Shields' blog) | Jun 16 23:22 |
schestowitz | Nat Friedman also worked for MS. For the recond... | Jun 16 23:22 |
neighborlee | benJIman, you'll forgive those of us, that prefer not to be saddled with encumbered projects from known haters of foss..we are a cancer after all ..but still if its all the same to you....hey..mono.....LEave our stuff alone o_0 : signed: the linux wall | Jun 16 23:22 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: can you give a direct link to that? | Jun 16 23:22 |
schestowitz | Thus the love for Mono.NET | Jun 16 23:22 |
mib_9c9tss | MinceR: I don't have the link for grope, but you can google it | Jun 16 23:23 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: i mean the blog post | Jun 16 23:23 |
MinceR | i'm searching for grope already | Jun 16 23:23 |
mib_9c9tss | schestowitz: and yet he still wrote bleeding edge tech for GNU | Jun 16 23:23 |
schestowitz | Funny thing is... | Jun 16 23:23 |
schestowitz | Never mind, but I sense mib_9c9tss came cause benJIman invited him | Jun 16 23:23 |
schestowitz | See when he suddenly emerged | Jun 16 23:23 |
mib_9c9tss | benJIman doesn't need my help, you guys are so clueless it's not even funny | Jun 16 23:24 |
schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 16 23:24 |
schestowitz | Serves to prove my point | Jun 16 23:24 |
mib_9c9tss | and no, he didn't call me | Jun 16 23:24 |
mib_9c9tss | I just happened by | Jun 16 23:24 |
benJIman | mib_9c9tss: Link? | Jun 16 23:24 |
schestowitz | Incognito anti-BN person materialises on the list when benJIman starts harping | Jun 16 23:24 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: just happened by and you're already trolling | Jun 16 23:24 |
schestowitz | It's the old pattern of benJIman bringing in reinforcement | Jun 16 23:25 |
schestowitz | "Yes men" | Jun 16 23:25 |
MinceR | 004050 < mib_9c9tss> benJIman doesn't need my help, you guys are so clueless it's not even funny | Jun 16 23:25 |
benJIman | Lol I didn't invite him/her. | Jun 16 23:25 |
mib_9c9tss | benJIman: I'm looking for the blog comments, hold on | Jun 16 23:25 |
MinceR | grope seems to do very little (rearranging functions so that the ones used together are on the same pagE) | Jun 16 23:26 |
MinceR | s/E/e/ | Jun 16 23:26 |
MinceR | and their homepage seems to be gone already :/ | Jun 16 23:27 |
mib_9c9tss | oh, right, sorry | Jun 16 23:27 |
mib_9c9tss | that was another project | Jun 16 23:27 |
benJIman | MinceR: I'm sure you can use your imagination to see how if code is always used in a certain way then you can eliminate dead code, replace expensive evaluations with constants and suchlike. You're best up reading up on the kinds of optimisations hotspot does though. | Jun 16 23:27 |
benJIman | Some of the new java 6 ones are quite interesting. | Jun 16 23:28 |
mib_9c9tss | I think grope was related to Nat's contributions to gcc though | Jun 16 23:28 |
MinceR | benJIman: sure, but i don't see why one has to optimize code in runtime to do that. | Jun 16 23:28 |
MinceR | benJIman: it would seem that collecting data in runtime should be enough. | Jun 16 23:28 |
benJIman | MinceR: Because ahead of time you can't guarantee that your preconditions will always hold true. | Jun 16 23:28 |
MinceR | (and doing the optimization offline) | Jun 16 23:28 |
benJIman | MinceR: But at runtime you can say I'm going to assume it will, compile to this native code, then if my assumption is proved false I'll recompile it. | Jun 16 23:29 |
MinceR | so you're optimizing for certain often used fixed parameters and use a more general version of the code if the parameter isn't of the expected value? | Jun 16 23:29 |
mib_9c9tss | http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/74/#comment-470 | Jun 16 23:30 |
MinceR | mib_9c9tss: thanks, reading | Jun 16 23:31 |
benJIman | MinceR: Seriously, google scholar search for hotspot jit and read some papers rather than believing things you read on IRC... | Jun 16 23:31 |
MinceR | benJIman: i'm asking because that still doesn't need JIT. | Jun 16 23:31 |
benJIman | MinceR: Sure you can AoT different versions but then you're still limited to whatever n versions you precompiled, bloating the executable, slowing it down with checks where the JIT can just look at runtime hotspots in the code. | Jun 16 23:33 |
MinceR | the idea is that one doesn't need lots of versions anyway | Jun 16 23:33 |
benJIman | While you can use some of the same techniques for AoT they'll never be as flexible as JIT. By definition the information the AoT is operating of is static and out of date. | Jun 16 23:34 |
MinceR | they'll never be as flexible as JIT but at the same time you won't use cycles on optimizing while the program is running, is it not so? | Jun 16 23:34 |
schestowitz | Fedora 9 End Of Life (EOL) < http://lwn.net/Articles/337470/ > So soon.. | Jun 16 23:34 |
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benJIman | MinceR: The JIT can decide when to do expensive things though, like the garbage collector, and doesn't need to do big things at once. | Jun 16 23:35 |
MinceR | can it decide those things even on a loaded multitasking system? | Jun 16 23:36 |
MinceR | well, it seems to me that theoretically both approaches have advantages the other doesn't | Jun 16 23:38 |
MinceR | and we'll only really see which works better after lots of use and benchmarking | Jun 16 23:38 |
schestowitz | The A-Z of Programming Languages: Erlang http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/307418/-z_programming_languages_erlang | Jun 16 23:38 |
schestowitz | https://twitter.com/RedHatNews | Jun 16 23:39 |
schestowitz | That's odd | Jun 16 23:39 |
schestowitz | Red Hat plays the Turf game? | Jun 16 23:39 |
schestowitz | They linked to me | Jun 16 23:39 |
schestowitz | Twitter is seriously fried | Jun 16 23:39 |
schestowitz | Post something about Android and the Googlebots will chime in | Jun 16 23:40 |
schestowitz | Some people write about MS and the MS shills are all over them | Jun 16 23:40 |
MinceR | well, time for me to get some sleep | Jun 16 23:41 |
MinceR | gn | Jun 16 23:41 |
schestowitz | sleep -p mib_9c9tss | Jun 16 23:41 |
schestowitz | kill -p MinceR | Jun 16 23:41 |
MinceR | operation not permitted | Jun 16 23:41 |
MinceR | ;) | Jun 16 23:41 |
schestowitz | LinuxToday is stuffed | Jun 16 23:42 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE Linux Netbook Desktop http://ping.fm/XHWu9 lookin' good | Jun 16 23:42 | |
schestowitz | bash: kill: p: invalid signal specification | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | kill -9 MinceR | Jun 16 23:42 |
MinceR | operation not permitted | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | I had some issued this morning | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | I killed the wrong process | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | Drive totem nuts | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | *drove | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | Even root couldn't kill totem | Jun 16 23:42 |
schestowitz | No matter what signal was sent to it | Jun 16 23:43 |
schestowitz | In my interview with Google they did some questions about kill | Jun 16 23:43 |
schestowitz | kill this, kill that | Jun 16 23:43 |
schestowitz | Makes you wonder how Google runs at all | Jun 16 23:43 |
MinceR | was the totem process a zombie? | Jun 16 23:43 |
schestowitz | Can't recall | Jun 16 23:44 |
MinceR | because there's a trick for zombies | Jun 16 23:44 |
trmanco | I had that problem before | Jun 16 23:44 |
schestowitz | It never happened to me before | Jun 16 23:44 |
trmanco | the totem process would enter an interruptible state | Jun 16 23:44 |
schestowitz | the only zombie process I came across was a bald man jumping on stage | Jun 16 23:44 |
trmanco | that's a monkey process | Jun 16 23:45 |
schestowitz | trmanco: I caused it | Jun 16 23:45 |
schestowitz | I killed some process wrongly | Jun 16 23:45 |
schestowitz | Money: process: invalid monkey specification | Jun 16 23:45 |
schestowitz | malloc(5,000,000,000); enter monkey(0);. | Jun 16 23:46 |
MinceR | i can't find it, but it involved gdb | Jun 16 23:46 |
schestowitz | Idea #20257: Change Tomboy for Gnote. http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/20257/ | Jun 16 23:46 |
*schestowitz looks for his ubuntu account details | Jun 16 23:47 | |
MinceR | iirc it involved attaching to the zombie and doing a waitpid on it or something. | Jun 16 23:48 |
schestowitz | I'm still morning the GPU crash | Jun 16 23:49 |
schestowitz | I lasted 99 days | Jun 16 23:49 |
schestowitz | it's better at work | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | roy@baine:~$ uname -a | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | Linux baine 2.6.20-16-generic #2 SMP Tue Feb 12 05:41:34 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | roy@baine:~$ uptime | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | 23:31:18 up 141 days, 12:32, 2 users, load average: 0.24, 0.12, 0.07 | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | roy@baine:~$ | Jun 16 23:50 |
schestowitz | Let's see if I can mae a year | Jun 16 23:50 |
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MinceR | http://stupefydeveloper.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-zombies.html | Jun 16 23:51 |
MinceR | ^ page doesn't seem to work in opera | Jun 16 23:51 |
MinceR | (but it does work in ff) | Jun 16 23:51 |
MinceR | and with that i'm gone. :) | Jun 16 23:51 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Idea #20257: Change Tomboy for Gnote. http://ping.fm/AJ7KT | Jun 16 23:52 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Martin Kaba on some sweet GNU/Linux app: http://ping.fm/rWcE8 | Jun 16 23:52 | |
schestowitz | Infrastructure Maintenance Downtimes http://news.opensuse.org/2009/06/16/infrastructure-maintenance-downtimes/ | Jun 16 23:53 |
schestowitz | opensuse's going down | Jun 16 23:53 |
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schestowitz | I've just been thinking: Ubuntu, like Fedora, put Mono in before it knew about the Novell/Microsoft patent deal coming | Jun 16 23:59 |
schestowitz | It's time to reassessmono. | Jun 16 23:59 |
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