IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 19th, 2009

DaemonXPI plus in my Sansa in Vista, Winamp pops up, synchronizes it with my Music folder, fetches album art and lyrics, and all this happens with me not doing anything but plugging it inJun 19 00:00
DaemonXPand when it's done, I unplug it and that's thatJun 19 00:00
DaemonXPI know the files transferred, I know they'll playJun 19 00:00
_GoblinTo be honest, I know very little of Sansa and I certainly dont think Ive seen anyone using that media device in the UK.Jun 19 00:00
DaemonXPMTP is a USB standardJun 19 00:01
DaemonXPso until Linux supports MTP, it has incomplete USB supportJun 19 00:01
_Goblinsorry, I didnt read that part of the original msg.Jun 19 00:01
schestowitz_Goblin: Anderson?Jun 19 00:01
DaemonXPright now it supports it but that support is patchyJun 19 00:01
schestowitzWait.Jun 19 00:01
schestowitzTim?Jun 19 00:01
schestowitzThe Microsofter?Jun 19 00:01
_Goblinno....Jun 19 00:01
schestowitzOhJun 19 00:02
_Goblinstandby for a link...Jun 19 00:02
schestowitzNot the one whom Microsoft gave a Vista7 laptopJun 19 00:02
DaemonXPJesus, even my Mac can recognize this playerJun 19 00:02
DaemonXPFreeBSD can browse itJun 19 00:02
DaemonXPLinux is the only thing that gives me problemsJun 19 00:02
schestowitzbrbJun 19 00:02
_Goblinhttp://www.unleashthebats.co.ukJun 19 00:03
DaemonXPI know that makes no sense since FreeBSD uses LibMTP same as Linux, but FreeBSD mounts it and Linux shits itselfJun 19 00:03
DaemonXPI happen to think that the user should never have to micromanage thingsJun 19 00:04
DaemonXPand if they do, then the program is a failureJun 19 00:04
_GoblinAs I was saying DaemonXP, it all depends on your requirements.  I could produce hundreds of examples of devices that did not work in Linux (or most mainstream distro's)Jun 19 00:04
DaemonXPthings like tagging and syncing are plumbing tasks that the media player should mess withJun 19 00:04
DaemonXPnot the userJun 19 00:04
DaemonXP_ever_Jun 19 00:04
splosionThe chaps over at the LibMTP project are doing a useful service though. Microsoft most certainly aren't giving them any help.Jun 19 00:04
_GoblinThe nice think with Linux, is that it wont cost you to find out.Jun 19 00:05
DaemonXPthey gave them a ZuneJun 19 00:05
_Goblin*thingJun 19 00:05
DaemonXPWinamp is missing one thing that would make it perfectionJun 19 00:05
_GoblinWhat?Jun 19 00:05
DaemonXPVariable Bitrate M4A encoderJun 19 00:06
DaemonXPI still use Foobar 2000 with Nero AAC to get thatJun 19 00:06
DaemonXPWinamp can only do CBRJun 19 00:06
_GoblinYou see again, I bet the majority of users dont want/need that feature....Jun 19 00:07
DaemonXPwell, VBR helps a lot actuallyJun 19 00:07
_Goblinthe "niche" demands of users can never be fully satisfied, hence....Jun 19 00:07
_Goblin"you can please some of the people some of the time......"Jun 19 00:07
DaemonXPcan shave a couple megs off each resulting file *and* give each frame the amount of bits needed to accurately represent itJun 19 00:07
DaemonXPnot having VBR is crippling the encoderJun 19 00:08
_Goblinbut again, I wouldnt think the average Winamp user would even require it...Jun 19 00:08
taconemac osx sucksJun 19 00:08
_Goblinmaybe thats why Windows (IMO) has become unstuck....Jun 19 00:08
splosionhttp://up.mibbit.com/up/IZpLys9I.png Check it out, DaemonXP, I made a script to convert a bunch of stuff to m4a.Jun 19 00:08
_Goblinbecause it pandered to the average user....Jun 19 00:08
*DaemonXP does not clickJun 19 00:08
DaemonXP:PJun 19 00:08
*DaemonXP thinks it may be a rickroll motivational posterJun 19 00:09
*DaemonXP clicks anywayJun 19 00:09
_GoblinI love a good rickroll...Ill click too.Jun 19 00:09
DaemonXPmp3 to m4a is rather pointlessJun 19 00:09
ugufjhfj_hahahahJun 19 00:09
ugufjhfj_http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspxJun 19 00:09
DaemonXPyou'll just have all the artifacts of MP3 and MP4Jun 19 00:09
splosionI know, But I was testing itJun 19 00:09
splosionchange the mp3 to anything you like, sheeshJun 19 00:09
DaemonXPFLAC to M4A would be cool thoughJun 19 00:10
DaemonXP:DJun 19 00:10
DaemonXPthose are really the only formats you'll ever see on my hard drive unless I don't have a choiceJun 19 00:10
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DaemonXPthere's some rarities and such that I could only get in MP3Jun 19 00:10
_Hicham_Mr DaemonXP againJun 19 00:10
DaemonXPand I got a bunch of free WMAs a few years agoJun 19 00:10
_Hicham_when will u be DaemonSUSE?Jun 19 00:11
splosionflac2aac, that's what it's going to be able to do when it's finished. I need to super-sed the output of id3 before tags are preserved and right now I can't be bothered. I'll finish it later onJun 19 00:11
DaemonXPwhen hell freezes over and it's not trying to be "I Can't Believe It's Not Windows"Jun 19 00:11
DaemonXP:DJun 19 00:11
_GoblinI can believe its not Windows....I can also believe its not Linux too.Jun 19 00:11
DaemonXPdoesn't make sense to use a OS full of ass backwards partially implemented Microsoft stuffJun 19 00:12
DaemonXPyou may as well just stay on Windows where all of it works rightJun 19 00:12
_GoblinI dont think its that bad.Jun 19 00:12
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DaemonXPmehJun 19 00:13
_GoblinI personally would go back to my Spectrum than have Windows in my home again...Jun 19 00:13
DaemonXPif mono could run compiled .Net stuff that would be kind of coolJun 19 00:13
_Goblinstill bloated....Jun 19 00:13
DaemonXPbut there's OS specific code you can do in .Net that can't be done on Mono because there's no equivalent in Linux for that particular functionJun 19 00:13
DaemonXPso it's not even source compatibleJun 19 00:14
DaemonXPit's just kind of sort of similarJun 19 00:14
_Goblinnor should it be.  Microsoft standards? Id rather not, thats why I migrated.Jun 19 00:14
DaemonXPthere's just no such thing as platform-independentJun 19 00:15
DaemonXPyou have to sacrifice too much performance and/or rewrite some of your codeJun 19 00:15
DaemonXPthat's why Java and Mono will never really cut itJun 19 00:15
DaemonXPI don't think anyone "prefers" applications written in Java or .Net to native versions just for their OSJun 19 00:16
DaemonXPit's just a dumping ground for lazy programmersJun 19 00:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] linutop++ a dandy little box that is SILENT. cheers to @liamproven - I even got samba to work. after setting it not to reset each reboot ...Jun 19 00:17
DaemonXPinterface lag is my biggest Java complaintJun 19 00:17
_Goblinand I think you have hit upon something....I dont think the end-user or indeed Enterprise really cares about "whats under the hood" of anything...Jun 19 00:17
DaemonXPwhen it takes 1-2 seconds for the interface to catch up with me, the program sucksJun 19 00:17
_Goblinand yes DaemonXP I agree.... about lag...Jun 19 00:17
splosionMost of the Java apps I have used don't impress me that much. Have you seen aTune? It's basically a poor copycat of Amarok 1.4 done in Java. By god it's slowJun 19 00:19
DaemonXPoh thank god I found my backupJun 19 00:20
DaemonXPLinux ate part of my libraryJun 19 00:20
DaemonXPhehJun 19 00:20
DaemonXPI lost 4 albums to their shitty M4A tagger who's author should burn in hellJun 19 00:21
DaemonXPffmpeg at them ratherJun 19 00:21
splosionSame with Azureus/Vuze. Deluge does pretty much everything Vuze does, and it does it all a hell of a lot faster. Really makes a difference on crappy hardware.Jun 19 00:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I mean of course @lproven re linutop, not @liamprovenJun 19 00:22
DaemonXPsweet jesusJun 19 00:22
*_Hicham_ wonders if DaemonXP believes in JesusJun 19 00:22
DaemonXPI just converted a DVD-9 audio disc to FLACJun 19 00:23
DaemonXPeach track is over 200 megabytesJun 19 00:23
*DaemonXP wonders how big the AAC would be with 5.1 DTSJun 19 00:24
DaemonXP:DJun 19 00:24
DaemonXPVorbis would just be stupid and throw away everything but left and right channelJun 19 00:24
DaemonXPiircJun 19 00:24
_GoblinDaemonXP: Can I ask you a question please...?Jun 19 00:25
DaemonXPcertainlyJun 19 00:25
_GoblinWhy are you here? (and before you answer let me explain)......Jun 19 00:25
_GoblinI get the impression that you are not a Linux diehard!..however...Jun 19 00:25
_Goblinyou dont strike me as a person who is working for MS....Jun 19 00:26
_Goblinthe reason for this is because:Jun 19 00:26
splosionhe disses MS constantly?Jun 19 00:26
_Goblinhe doesnt really though...Jun 19 00:26
_GoblinI get the feeling Daemon is.......(wait for it!!!!!!)Jun 19 00:26
DaemonXPI am Batman!!!!!Jun 19 00:27
DaemonXPyou caught meJun 19 00:27
_Goblina little like me, (albeit from a Windows point of view) he like to stimulate an argument by "throwing a spanner in the works" when something is being championed....Jun 19 00:27
_GoblinI don't actually think you have an agenda, nor care what others use.Jun 19 00:28
_Goblinand its a shame that because of the allegations of Microsoft behaviour that anyone who has even the remotest good word to say about something MS, gets labeled a shill...Jun 19 00:28
_Goblinin one sense Microsoft may have "done their own legs"Jun 19 00:29
_Goblinand if Daemon (or anyone was here) on the orders of Ballmer, it would be a waste of time since I dont think anyone here would have their opinions changed on a whim.....Jun 19 00:30
_Goblinor maybe Im wrong and am just waffling after a hard day at work....Jun 19 00:30
_Goblinone things for sure....I have a skill at killing a conversation....Jun 19 00:32
DaemonXPthey're not all bad but they're pretty despicable in a lot of waysJun 19 00:32
splosion*The room is silent. A lone tumbleweed breezes through.*Jun 19 00:32
_Hicham_DaemonXP batman? hahahahahahahaJun 19 00:32
_Goblinto be fair, there are somethings that Microsoft need credit for....Jun 19 00:32
_Goblincheap computing I think is largly the "fault" of MS.Jun 19 00:33
DaemonXPMTP is one of those things that's not badJun 19 00:33
DaemonXPit's part of the USB spec, so it's out of Microsoft's handsJun 19 00:33
DaemonXPmore or lessJun 19 00:33
_GoblinMTP the protocol?Jun 19 00:33
DaemonXPthey have no interest in seeing the communication standard for portables be fragmented and unique to each playerJun 19 00:33
DaemonXPyesJun 19 00:33
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DaemonXPpretty much anything that's not an ipod uses MTPJun 19 00:34
DaemonXPit's time to suck it down and support it properlyJun 19 00:34
_Goblinmmmm.....a bastion of salvation for Microsoft?Jun 19 00:34
DaemonXPyes, they did manage to throw their weight around and unfragment the digital media player messJun 19 00:36
DaemonXPand Linux can benefit from that but hasn't stepped up to the plateJun 19 00:36
_Goblinrecovery of corrupted data issue? (in respect of MTP)Jun 19 00:36
DaemonXPno issueJun 19 00:36
DaemonXPthe files are unchangedJun 19 00:36
DaemonXPthe database is just for metadata based on the media tags and to reference the correct album artJun 19 00:36
DaemonXPother than that, they're jsut like any other file stored on a FAT32 partitionJun 19 00:37
DaemonXPthe partition doesn't even have to be FAT32Jun 19 00:37
_Goblinsorry you will have to forgive me, since Im doing a little reading up on the protocol as we talk...Jun 19 00:37
DaemonXPit could be anythingJun 19 00:37
DaemonXPthe media player is the only thing that has to care what the underlying file system isJun 19 00:38
DaemonXPMTP is just the database format and the transfer protocolJun 19 00:38
DaemonXPhas nothing to do with file systemJun 19 00:39
DaemonXPso recoverability isn't any more or less of a problem than any file on any USB storage deviceJun 19 00:39
DaemonXPthe OS jsut has to support the mtp communication standard to talk to the deviceJun 19 00:40
_Goblinaccording to what Ive read the filesystem of the device is implimented by the device not the OS its hooked into....Jun 19 00:40
DaemonXPright, the device shows the files to the OSJun 19 00:40
DaemonXPwhich mounts it as a partitionJun 19 00:41
_Goblinso a corrupted device/data would be an issue to recovery tools on your OS then surely?Jun 19 00:41
DaemonXPso even if you compile Linux without FAT32 support, it could still see the filesJun 19 00:41
DaemonXPas long as you have libmtpJun 19 00:41
DaemonXPnoJun 19 00:41
DaemonXPlike I said, it's not any more dangerous to store them in MTP format than it is to store them on an MSC deviceJun 19 00:42
_GoblinIve read about other drawbacks, inability for other apps to access data directly...Jun 19 00:42
DaemonXPMTP is really just a "smarter" version of MSC that's better with handling metadata for music filesJun 19 00:42
_Hicham_can't find libDaemonXP.so : no such file or directoryJun 19 00:43
_GoblinOne thing....Im surprised how many manufacturers have embrased it.Jun 19 00:43
_Goblinsorry for bad spelling...very tired.Jun 19 00:43
DaemonXPas long as you tag your files such as to where your media player software can sort them out, your portable will sort them jsut fine as wellJun 19 00:43
_Goblinalthough when you see Zune on the list, alarm bells should be flashing.Jun 19 00:43
_Goblin*ringingJun 19 00:44
DaemonXPZune has two levels of MTP support if I recall correctlyJun 19 00:44
DaemonXPSecure and Non-Secure (normal MTP)Jun 19 00:44
_Goblinapparently MTPZJun 19 00:44
DaemonXPSecure only supports DRM'd WMA thoughJun 19 00:44
DaemonXPso your other files can be seen by anythingJun 19 00:45
_GoblinOne thing Ive noticed though with plug in devices, is that many of them have removable memory cards so should you encounter any issue of compat you can always whip out the card and plug it into your PC slot directly.....Im refering to the big issue of digi camera's and Linux (or even Windows) compat..Jun 19 00:47
DaemonXPthat's true, and another area where Linux failsJun 19 00:48
DaemonXPit can't see my 16 gigs of expansionJun 19 00:48
DaemonXPjust the 8 gigs on the deviceJun 19 00:48
DaemonXPwhen mounted in MTP modeJun 19 00:48
_Goblinnot im my experience.  If it fits into the slot I can read it!Jun 19 00:49
DaemonXPI have to be in MSC mode for that to be exposed to LinuxJun 19 00:49
DaemonXPsome bug in the device firmware possiblyJun 19 00:49
_Goblinand my slot has many sizes (no pun intended)Jun 19 00:49
DaemonXPbut could also be a gap in libmtpJun 19 00:49
DaemonXPwell, Banshee can see itJun 19 00:50
DaemonXPso maybe it's jsut treating it as one combined storage mediaJun 19 00:50
DaemonXPWinamp lets me choose where the album ends upJun 19 00:50
_GoblinAs I say though, I think many of the issues you raise are of no consequence to many users....could I live without any external devices? yes...infact as long as I have a DVDwriter, thats all the portability I need....Jun 19 00:50
_Goblinand infact I could even live without a writer, since my family snaps are provided on a DVD when I get them developed...Jun 19 00:53
DaemonXPI really have to say though that I enjoy this $50 Sansa more than I did that $260 iPodJun 19 00:54
DaemonXPthose things are totally, grossly over-hypedJun 19 00:54
DaemonXPthe Sansa also is far more ruggedJun 19 00:54
DaemonXPyou'll scratch an ipod all to hell just by walking around with it in your pocketJun 19 00:55
DaemonXPit's ridiculousJun 19 00:55
_GoblinIve never used a Sansa, and I have no feelings about the Ipod since the tech does not interest me.  The wife has one but I think she would be happy with any MP3 player...I think the Ipod is more a fashion statement to her.Jun 19 00:55
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DaemonXPdon't buy an iPod if you want a decent player that you're at least somewhat in control ofJun 19 00:55
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_GoblinI dont think it matters in the wifes case.  As long as she has the facility to play and stop, thats all the functionality she requires.Jun 19 00:56
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DaemonXPI got kind of duped by the in-store demoJun 19 00:57
splosionYou know, _Goblin, you never did get an answer from DaemonXP about why he comes here :PJun 19 00:57
_GoblinlolJun 19 00:57
DaemonXPand Linux media players claiming to support itJun 19 00:57
_Goblini was just typing the same thing splosion!Jun 19 00:58
DaemonXPwhich they do, poorlyJun 19 00:58
_Goblinfreaky.Jun 19 00:58
splosionBatman strikes again...Jun 19 00:58
DaemonXPwho knows?Jun 19 00:58
splosionBatman is using his Jedi mind tricks for some sort of evil mind meld to make you lose your investigative scent, _GoblinJun 19 00:58
_Goblinlol....Jun 19 00:59
_GoblinI don't think DaemonXP would bother trying to "convert" anyone here to anything...it would be a lost cause...Jun 19 00:59
_Goblinif this was Microsoft Watch, then maybe...Jun 19 00:59
_Goblinthats why I think sometimes Daemon simply like the challenge of an argument....Jun 19 01:00
_Goblinwhich is good for the room I think.Jun 19 01:00
_Goblinfar better than everyone agreeing all the time.Jun 19 01:00
splosionI was put on ignore by someone earlier after I quoted a rather funny comment from the Debian forums about freetards and how much GNU sucks etc. I guess he didn't realise it was a quote. Ah well.Jun 19 01:00
_Goblinoh dear....I can beat that though....Jun 19 01:01
_Goblinmy ISP about 5 months ago sent me a threatening email about filesharing......a linux distro....Jun 19 01:01
_GoblinI dont think they understood the concept....Jun 19 01:01
splosionhahahaJun 19 01:02
_Goblinor maybe it was more a case they didnt want me using the bandwidth I paid for.Jun 19 01:02
splosionmost likelyJun 19 01:02
_GoblinI wish I could remember what distro it was.....Jun 19 01:02
_GoblinI think I was sharing that sucker for about 7 days straight....Jun 19 01:03
splosionIt's rarely an echo chamber in here, though. There are plenty of people who come here who don't take the RMS road. And then plenty of trolls who come to stir things up a bit, too.Jun 19 01:04
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splosionI'd say I'm closer to the rms way of life, though. I try not to use proprietary stuff out of principle, even if it's better than the alternatives. I make concessions for shit that's zomg-really-important, like graphics driversJun 19 01:06
splosionand I'm just really suspicious of Microsoft. This place is awesome for that.Jun 19 01:07
DaemonXPthe right tool for the jobJun 19 01:07
DaemonXPI don't care if a hammer is free if I need a pair of pliersJun 19 01:08
DaemonXP:DJun 19 01:08
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splosionthat sort of attitude doesn't really bother me, either, though. Attempt-a-trolls who come in here have tried to catch me out on thatJun 19 01:08
_GoblinSorry I was out taking a smoke....Jun 19 01:09
_Goblinsaw the RMS comment...Jun 19 01:09
_GoblinI dont happen to agree with everything he says either.Jun 19 01:09
*splosion smokes indoors, at his PC. Life is awesomeJun 19 01:09
_Goblinkids and a very anti smoking wife is my deterent.Jun 19 01:10
splosionYeah, like when he suggested everybody leave their wifi unsecured. A nice idea in principle, but in reality it would be abused, badlyJun 19 01:10
splosionAnd browsing the web via wget? Not the life for meJun 19 01:11
_GoblinI can imagine it now.....knock on the door at 3am by the porn police....try explaining that to the neighbours...Jun 19 01:11
fewathe FTC can now regulate cigarettesJun 19 01:11
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: you mean the FDAJun 19 01:11
fewasplosion, its possible to put a wifi on a private networkJun 19 01:11
fewao yeahJun 19 01:12
DaemonXPmehJun 19 01:12
fewadamn alphabet soupJun 19 01:12
DaemonXPI smoke sometimesJun 19 01:12
DaemonXPnot oftenJun 19 01:12
DaemonXPclove cigarettesJun 19 01:12
fewait did good things to foodJun 19 01:12
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: the flavor ban (except menthol) only effects cigarettes and maybe cherry cigars.Jun 19 01:12
DaemonXPyeah, great things, like let salmonella outbreaks happenJun 19 01:12
_GoblinI should really stop...trouble is, I dont want to.Jun 19 01:12
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: the bill says nothing about any other tobacco productJun 19 01:12
splosionpfft. Roll your own tobacco. It tastes better and lasts longer. More smoke for your money.Jun 19 01:12
DaemonXPand all kinds of additives that cause diabetesJun 19 01:12
DaemonXPand obesityJun 19 01:12
DaemonXP:DJun 19 01:12
fewaDaemonXP, it was _aoooooooooooooooottttttttt_ woorse in the 1900s before the food and drug actJun 19 01:12
fewayou have no ideaJun 19 01:13
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: do you...? :PJun 19 01:13
fewaread The JungleJun 19 01:13
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: you must be about 250 years oldJun 19 01:13
DaemonXPanother federal agency at the wheel, this time regulating products that are supposed to kill youJun 19 01:13
fewaand all the cocaine they sold peopleJun 19 01:13
fewawithout telling themJun 19 01:13
fewaand heroinJun 19 01:13
DaemonXPI'm sure their incompetence will lead to cigarettes that cure cancerJun 19 01:13
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: The Jungle was a tabloid turned novelJun 19 01:13
DaemonXP:DJun 19 01:13
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: its allot like those No Smoking AddsJun 19 01:13
fewaok, but Fast Food Nation was betterJun 19 01:13
fewaand talk about itJun 19 01:13
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fewathey did sell alot of crapJun 19 01:14
starcannonhey dere, hi dere, ho dereJun 19 01:14
fewamislabledJun 19 01:14
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: the closest modern equivalent to The Jungle, is Supersize MeJun 19 01:14
splosionfewa: don't forget the psychiatrists who plied their trade masturbating depressed housewivesJun 19 01:14
_GoblinI've always believed that the horrible diseases are built into your DNA...if you are going to get them you are going to get them.Jun 19 01:14
fewa_Goblin, thats just totally wrongJun 19 01:14
Carl_Rover2k12splosion: hey, doctors were in on it tooJun 19 01:14
splosionSounds like fun, Carl_Rover2k12Jun 19 01:14
_Goblinfewa: Im sure it is...it makes me feel better though.Jun 19 01:14
fewa_Goblin, some things are genetic, but most is not, its antibiotics that keeps people from sying of thoseJun 19 01:14
fewa*people safe from dyingJun 19 01:15
_GoblinIm from the school of "bury your head in the sand, it will go away"Jun 19 01:15
Carl_Rover2k12splosion: now if doctors and psychiatrists bought Edison's motion pictures back thenJun 19 01:15
Carl_Rover2k12I mean motion picture capture devicesJun 19 01:15
fewamakes me thing og the "bogus phicaitrists" sketch from MPJun 19 01:16
splosionPatents are a real threat to the field of genetic research. Pretty bad to put patents all over something that's really in its infancy. Imagine if all the stuff in computer science had been patented to fuck in the forties and fifties. Would we even have anything remotely like what we have today?Jun 19 01:16
fewasplosion, they would have patented DNAJun 19 01:17
splosionayeJun 19 01:17
fewawould have prought back genetic research 20 yearsJun 19 01:17
splosionIf someone could patent E=MC^2, they wouldJun 19 01:17
starcannonslosion yeah I tend to agree, patenting the human genome, or any genome is absolutely criminalJun 19 01:17
fewaand looking at recent policies they might have gotten away with itJun 19 01:17
Carl_Rover2k12splosion: well Einstein worked in a Patent OfficeJun 19 01:18
fewaactually, they would haveJun 19 01:18
fewalolJun 19 01:18
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fewahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heskWNMUqC8Jun 19 01:18
Carl_Rover2k12http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7laHxv4vIcwJun 19 01:19
splosionIt's when fundamental building blocks are patented that the consequences are really dire. If someone had patented out $if, $and, %xor, %or, $while and $goto fifty odd years ago, we'd still be using mainframesJun 19 01:20
starcannonsplosion yeah kinda like Apples claim to a basic software update process that the W3C is now entangled in http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/17/w3c_apple_prior_art/Jun 19 01:24
starcannonThat kind of thing is just crap.Jun 19 01:24
splosionAye. I honestly feel that the less intellectual propertyrights (an absurd term to begin with) we have, the betterJun 19 01:26
splosionWhat sort of world do we want to live in? One where ideas are shared freely, or one where we have a bunch of jealous patent and copyrightholders in ivory towers, glaring at one another suspiciously, firing salvos of lawyers at everyone.Jun 19 01:27
starcannonI tend to agree, though there are places where its not so black and white. Music and Movies for instance, if a studio can not expect to own the material, then what is the incentive to produce it to begin with?Jun 19 01:27
DaemonXPthe latest LAME 3.99 alpha is now squeezing out the padding bits more effectivelyJun 19 01:27
DaemonXPmp3packer will shave 200-300k off each VBR 0 MP3 with Lame 3.98 but only 10-20k off a Lame 3.99 compressed MP3Jun 19 01:28
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 01:28
DaemonXPmore bang for the buck is always niceJun 19 01:28
starcannonDaemonXP any word on the sound quality?Jun 19 01:28
DaemonXPsounds good to meJun 19 01:29
splosionstarcannon: with culture I really think if it cannot be shared, then it isn't culture. Cultural works will be produced regardless of whether or not someone gets paid to do so. Artists should be able to make money, but to impose a limit on what people can do with what they produce is silly and wrong. People share, it's what we do, it's how we learn and evolve.Jun 19 01:29
DaemonXPit's same quality, just doesn't use padding bits as muchJun 19 01:30
DaemonXPwhich make no sense in a VBR file anywayJun 19 01:30
DaemonXPbut earlier builds of Lame used them for some reasonJun 19 01:30
DaemonXPprobably to compensate for old/buggy MP3 playersJun 19 01:30
DaemonXP*shrugs*Jun 19 01:30
DaemonXPI know my player can play them so I'm happyJun 19 01:30
DaemonXPLAME 3.99 VBR 0 shaved just over 3 megs off Metallica's Black AlbumJun 19 01:31
DaemonXPhardly a major breakthrough, but times hundreds of CDs, it adds upJun 19 01:32
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starcannonDaemonXP exactly, and for streaming etc... its a big deal I would think, though I'm just guessing, I don't really know much about the issueJun 19 01:33
DaemonXPstreaming requires CBR anywayJun 19 01:35
DaemonXPwhich is what padding bits are useful inJun 19 01:35
DaemonXPthey are dead bits that are used to keep a constant bitrateJun 19 01:35
DaemonXPexactly what VBR is supposed to throw awayJun 19 01:36
DaemonXPso I welcome Lame 3.99Jun 19 01:36
DaemonXPhaving to make a pass over all my MP3 with MP3 Packer is not something I'll missJun 19 01:36
DaemonXPlatest LAME builds are nipping on the heels of AAC's quality to file size ratioJun 19 01:37
DaemonXPI think that's why AAC is havign a hard time catching onJun 19 01:38
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splosionDoes anyone know how to speed up the autohide feature of the xfce-panel? I can't seem to find anything about this by googling.Jun 19 01:41
DaemonXPXFCE? My condolencesJun 19 01:42
splosionI'm tempted to just use the gnome-panel inside xfce at this rate.Jun 19 01:43
splosionxfce uses less of ma pecious RAMJun 19 01:43
DaemonXPGNOME is much betterJun 19 01:44
DaemonXPMandriva makes GNOME look pretty cool/modern (not brown) ;)Jun 19 01:45
DaemonXPhehJun 19 01:45
DaemonXPXFCE doesn't save enough resources to mess withJun 19 01:45
DaemonXPif you want a minimal but functional desktop you want LXDEJun 19 01:45
DaemonXPyou're still throwing a lot of the luxeries overboard, but it does at least save you enough resources to make it work well on older systemsJun 19 01:46
DaemonXPXFCE just doesn'tJun 19 01:46
DaemonXPextra 20 megs of RAM or so really doesn't matter on most systemsJun 19 01:46
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splosionI won't mind soon. I'm getting a load of new hardware soonJun 19 01:48
DaemonXPwow, latest Lame 3.99 sounds very good indeedJun 19 01:49
splosionRipping out Ubuntu, jacking in Squeeze or Sid (probably both), and so onJun 19 01:49
DaemonXPvery sharpJun 19 01:49
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 01:49
DaemonXPI found a site that pulls the latest Lame source and builds it every few daysJun 19 01:49
DaemonXPso I play around with the newest builds sometimesJun 19 01:49
_Hicham_can't u build it urself?Jun 19 01:53
DaemonXPI couldJun 19 01:54
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yuhongOn industry paid "news", look at this:Jun 19 01:55
yuhonghttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/06/18/Media-Blast-Oprah-for-Supporting-Alternative-Medicine.aspxJun 19 01:55
_Hicham_it is not that bigJun 19 01:55
_Hicham_how big is lame?Jun 19 01:55
DaemonXP296k for Win32Jun 19 01:56
yuhong"If anyone has any doubt if that Newsweek article was a deliberate attack by Big Pharma, just pick up that issue of Newsweek and flip through it. MORE THAN HALF OF THE ADVERTISING SPACE IS FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. I just cannot believe Newsweek would do something so blatantly obvious. "Jun 19 01:56
DaemonXP356k for Win64Jun 19 01:56
yuhong"They must be so critically devastated by the recession that they are now willing to sell their front cover, a full cover story article, and any shred of journalistic integrity that they HAD left. Time for everyone to cancel their PharmaWeek subscriptions. "Jun 19 01:56
_Hicham_it should compile in less than 5 minutes thenJun 19 01:58
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DaemonXPthere we go, a new take on Linus Torvalds "Software is like sex, it's better when it's free" quipJun 19 02:22
DaemonXPmine is "Software is like sex, it's better when all the bits and pieces work properly"Jun 19 02:23
DaemonXP:DJun 19 02:23
DaemonXPhmmmJun 19 02:25
DaemonXPSeether's new album will include their original "Fragile" album from back when they were Saron GasJun 19 02:26
DaemonXPif you get the collectors editionJun 19 02:26
DaemonXPI have that, had to import it from South AfricaJun 19 02:26
DaemonXPschestowitz: Another fine Wikipedia articleJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dale_StewartJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPRelationship StatusJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPIn a relationship with Vanessa Cuevas. She's hot!!!!Jun 19 02:29
DaemonXPlmaoJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPwell, she's hotJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPWikipedia said itJun 19 02:29
DaemonXPI'm gay but if Wikipedia tells me she's hot I have to agreeJun 19 02:30
DaemonXP:PJun 19 02:30
DaemonXP"best known as the badassbass guitarist"Jun 19 02:30
DaemonXPhe's the baddest badass badassbass guitarist everJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPindeedJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPWikipedia said itJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPsplosion agrees with meJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPsplosion: Just say yesJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPor edit the article to say Dale Stewart was the first man on MarsJun 19 02:31
DaemonXPeither way worksJun 19 02:32
DaemonXPWikipedia = Biggest Libertarian stomping ground masking as an encyclopedia EVERJun 19 02:33
DaemonXP:DJun 19 02:33
splosionSay what?Jun 19 02:34
DaemonXPthat Dale Stewart was the baddest badassbass guitarist with a hot girlfriend who defeated the Martial uprising of 2074Jun 19 02:34
DaemonXPbiatch!Jun 19 02:34
DaemonXP:DJun 19 02:34
DaemonXP*MartianJun 19 02:35
splosionWiki is your guideJun 19 02:35
DaemonXPindeedJun 19 02:35
splosionNow hurry up and check it so I can revert the sodding editJun 19 02:35
DaemonXP(m) defeated the Martian uprising of 2074 singlehandedly and awarded the Medal of Freedom by George W. Bush's preserved head-in-a-jarJun 19 02:35
DaemonXP:PJun 19 02:36
DaemonXPthey had WMDsJun 19 02:36
DaemonXPthey started itJun 19 02:36
neighborleeoh gez ;))Jun 19 02:36
neighborleelinus--I hope you have a link to that ;0-Jun 19 02:36
neighborleefree,,bits pieces,, its allways been great for me when its got some basis in love ;)<but thats just me, an ordinary 'romantic' fool>Jun 19 02:37
splosionHuh. Seems a whole bunch of crazy edits have happened on this corporate IP.Jun 19 02:37
DaemonXPhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10268040-83.html?tag=contentMain;contentBodyJun 19 02:37
DaemonXPMicrosoft's free anti-malware beta to arrive next weekJun 19 02:37
DaemonXPMicrosoft to the rescueJun 19 02:37
DaemonXPwatch out 37% of bad guys everywhere!Jun 19 02:37
DaemonXPnyaaah!Jun 19 02:37
neighborleelolJun 19 02:38
splosionWikipedians are often so joyless. *sigh*Jun 19 02:38
DaemonXPthe makers of the most malware plagued OS everJun 19 02:38
DaemonXPmake an anti-malware appJun 19 02:39
DaemonXPsure, rightJun 19 02:39
DaemonXPI'll install itJun 19 02:39
DaemonXP:PJun 19 02:39
neighborleeLOLJun 19 02:39
neighborleegood man! ;)Jun 19 02:39
splosionI love those guys who go around claiming stuff like, "I've used Windows for twelve years and I've *never* had a virus." Bull. Shit.Jun 19 02:40
neighborleelolJun 19 02:40
neighborleeagreed, slightly unlikely ;)Jun 19 02:40
splosionIt's better when they claim to not use any AV too. I mean, christJun 19 02:40
neighborlee:)Jun 19 02:41
DaemonXPI got pwned by IE 6 onceJun 19 02:43
DaemonXPthat Download.Ject thingJun 19 02:44
splosionI remember the first AV scan we did on the family computer back in 1999-ish (never used AV before). I remember it caught a shocking amount of virusesJun 19 02:45
splosionwell over a hundred vulnerabilities, iircJun 19 02:46
splosionBut then I was a spotty teenager and I *did* use it for pornJun 19 02:46
DaemonXPDoes Amazon MP3 watermark their files?Jun 19 02:47
splosionI don't know...Jun 19 02:50
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DaemonXPthat's funnyJun 19 03:04
DaemonXPspammers are now forging the send date to January 18 2038Jun 19 03:04
DaemonXPthat's where 32-bit UNIX time endsJun 19 03:05
splosionDaemonXP: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/spam_crackdown_threatensJun 19 03:05
DaemonXPprobably just trying to get to the top of your mail listJun 19 03:05
DaemonXPwhen people sort by dateJun 19 03:05
DaemonXPlmaoJun 19 03:06
DaemonXP"and put your monster inside her"Jun 19 03:07
DaemonXProflJun 19 03:07
splosionAye, tis good.Jun 19 03:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] 18 awesome Linux Palm Pre tips, tricks and shortcuts: http://digg.com/d1uFGV?tJun 19 03:12
DaemonXPThe service works like traditional antivirus products in which client software monitors programs on a PC. When something changes on the computer, such as files being downloaded or copied or software trying to modify files, the system checks against a set of malware signatures in the client program to see if the code matches the signature for known malware. If so, it blocks it from getting downloaded.Jun 19 03:16
DaemonXPIf no signature match is found, the system will ping the server-based Dynamic Signature Service to see if any new signatures are available and, if so, it removes the malware. If it appears to be new malware, the Dynamic Signature Service may request a sample of the code in order to create a new signature.Jun 19 03:16
DaemonXPso Microsoft gets to see everythinhg that's on your computerJun 19 03:16
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 03:16
DaemonXPyour MP3s and Warez folders includedJun 19 03:16
DaemonXPWhat was that?Jun 19 03:17
DaemonXP:DJun 19 03:17
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DaemonXPit sounds like Microsoft's antivirus works like that Panda cloud whoziwhazzitJun 19 03:18
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DaemonXP"We don't see Security Essentials as a direct competitor to other free products and suites," which try to "upsell" users, or get them to eventually pay for a product, Packer said. "We're targeting people who aren't protected" already.Jun 19 03:19
DaemonXPA spokeswoman for AVG, likely the main rival to Microsoft's service, said AVG offers a free Internet security suite that has advantages because it is operating system agnostic and was developed by a company that specializes in security products.Jun 19 03:19
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DaemonXPAVG is not sure if it believes in operating systems?Jun 19 03:20
DaemonXP:DJun 19 03:20
DaemonXPhttp://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/bto/20090618/Morro.pngJun 19 03:20
DaemonXPscreenshotJun 19 03:20
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DaemonXPhmmmmJun 19 03:33
DaemonXPI tried out the Win64 version of Lame 3.99 and found that it's able to encode at 70-80 times playback speed on this Core 2 Duo 2.33 GhzJun 19 03:34
DaemonXPthat's pretty badassJun 19 03:34
neighborleenor can I complain much about blender rendering speeds of 1.5 timesJun 19 03:42
neighborleegeneally speaking..I dont have exhaustive test but you get the idea ;)Jun 19 03:42
neighborleegenerallyJun 19 03:42
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DaemonXPhmm, Lame also has an experimental noise ignore optionJun 19 03:44
DaemonXPand combined with the super aggressive psychoaccoustic analyzer I can shave quite a bit off the file size and still get great qualityJun 19 03:45
DaemonXPwaiting for it to finish up this albumJun 19 03:45
DaemonXPi took this album from 112 megs to 92Jun 19 03:46
DaemonXPwhile staying at V 0Jun 19 03:46
DaemonXPcoolJun 19 03:46
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 03:46
DaemonXP-S --noreplaygain -Y -q 0 -V 0 --vbr-new - %dJun 19 03:49
DaemonXPthe -Y switch is undocumentedJun 19 03:52
DaemonXPbut knocks the file size down a lotJun 19 03:52
DaemonXPnoise shapingJun 19 03:52
neighborleehey thereJun 19 03:53
neighborleethere’s a chance that it might do, but it’s under discussion at the moment "" < I presume thats a weird typo..'might DO' ???..any idea what that is supposed to be ? ;))Jun 19 03:53
neighborleeI haven't played much at all with audio.other than listening to it when I have time ;)Jun 19 03:54
neighborleehow 'lame' but hey ;),Jun 19 03:54
neighborleehttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/16/debian-not-including-mono/ < im referring to thisJun 19 03:55
DaemonXP-Y is only in 3.99Jun 19 03:55
DaemonXPuse at own risk type stuffJun 19 03:55
neighborlee:)Jun 19 03:55
DaemonXPit appears to me that it works rather wellJun 19 03:55
DaemonXPit basically tells Lame to find the noise floor and jsut don't even bother encoding anything below itJun 19 03:56
DaemonXPso it throws away a lot of noise and randomness that it might otherwise encodeJun 19 03:56
DaemonXPand you either get a file size reduction in some bits of the stream or a quality improvement if it otherwise hit the 320k ceiling and had to decide what to do and chose wrongJun 19 03:57
DaemonXP:DJun 19 03:57
DaemonXPsince it analyzed and threw away the noise in that frame the decision as to what to encode is already made :)Jun 19 03:57
DaemonXPOK, this 20 soung double CD set was 154 megs as -V 0Jun 19 03:58
neighborleeok sure ;)Jun 19 03:58
DaemonXPbut adding -q0 and -Y bumped it down to 123 megsJun 19 03:58
DaemonXPnot badJun 19 03:58
DaemonXPLame 3.99 with the experimental stuff and aggressive VBR analyzer gets the same quality but knocks over 20% off the file sizeJun 19 03:59
DaemonXPso on my 24 gigs of storage (on the portable) it would give me between 3-5 more gigabytes to play withJun 19 04:00
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 04:00
DaemonXPsorry, when they add big red buttons I jsut have to push all of themJun 19 04:01
DaemonXPit's compulsiveJun 19 04:01
neighborleelolJun 19 04:01
neighborleestop for a minute would yaJun 19 04:01
neighborleeI mean its kewl and all, but I asked you something.,up about 500 linesJun 19 04:01
neighborleeoK JK..haha, not 500,,just look up a bitJun 19 04:02
DaemonXP11:10neighborleethere’s a chance that it might do, but it’s under discussion at the moment "" < I presume thats a weird typo..'might DO' ???..any idea what that is supposed to be ? ;))Jun 19 04:02
DaemonXPwith regards to?Jun 19 04:02
neighborleeyes pleaseJun 19 04:02
neighborleetomboy>debianJun 19 04:02
DaemonXPblegthJun 19 04:02
DaemonXPdoes that piece of shit have to end up everywhere?Jun 19 04:02
neighborleeneed some sort of answerJun 19 04:03
DaemonXPone more thing to uninstall no matter what distro you chooseJun 19 04:03
DaemonXP*shrugs*Jun 19 04:03
DaemonXPI am not a Debian developerJun 19 04:03
DaemonXPyou might try #debianJun 19 04:03
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 04:03
neighborleeUGHJun 19 04:03
neighborleeim not touching that pistol no matter how fast I amJun 19 04:03
DaemonXPwell, how the hell do I know what they're up toJun 19 04:03
DaemonXPit's not like I'm the project manager you knowJun 19 04:04
DaemonXP:DJun 19 04:04
neighborleewell I meant the spelling,,the grammarJun 19 04:04
neighborlee'might do' ???Jun 19 04:04
neighborleemight go in ??Jun 19 04:04
neighborleemight ,,whatl..Jun 19 04:04
neighborleemight.what...Jun 19 04:04
DaemonXPI assume that means it mayJun 19 04:04
neighborleethats my takeJun 19 04:04
neighborleejust wanted to make sure im not imagining thingsJun 19 04:04
DaemonXPwho knows why every distro is so eager to put in crap that may infringe Microsoft patentsJun 19 04:04
DaemonXPespecially something of so little added valueJun 19 04:04
neighborleethe 800lb question ;)Jun 19 04:05
DaemonXPyes, but if I was going to be sued I'd put in something usefulJun 19 04:05
DaemonXPnot a not scratchpadJun 19 04:05
neighborleeLOLJun 19 04:05
DaemonXP*noteJun 19 04:05
neighborleewell thankfullly gnote has addressed that ;)Jun 19 04:05
neighborleebut yesJun 19 04:05
DaemonXPyou have no idea how Lame 3.99 has amused meJun 19 04:09
DaemonXP"You mean I can be pooping AND warm at the same time? Sir, here is a check, write any number you like and I will pay it" -Peter (Family Guy)Jun 19 04:09
DaemonXPthat kind of happyJun 19 04:09
DaemonXPI'm having it attack an irritatingly hard-to-encode songJun 19 04:22
DaemonXP:PJun 19 04:22
DaemonXPhmmm, LAME MP3 with the new settings is winning vs ~320k VBR Nero AACJun 19 04:27
DaemonXPholy crapJun 19 04:27
DaemonXP:PJun 19 04:27
DaemonXPin my ABX runsJun 19 04:27
neighborleelolJun 19 04:39
neighborleethats pretty happy ;)Jun 19 04:39
DaemonXPMP3 just will not stay deadJun 19 04:41
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DaemonXPI'm sure that pisses off the companies that are trying to railroad everyone to AACJun 19 04:42
DaemonXPNero's encoder is good, but their license is kind of scaryJun 19 04:42
DaemonXP"free for non-commercial use and evauluation"Jun 19 04:43
DaemonXPso in other words, even if I wanted to makes some songs with it that I own the IP to and distribute them freely (which the MPEG-4 license itself lets you do)Jun 19 04:43
DaemonXPI can't distribute them if I used Nero's encoderJun 19 04:43
DaemonXPwithout paying Nero moneyJun 19 04:43
DaemonXPand since they have the best encoder, who can argue with that?Jun 19 04:44
twitterDeamonMVP, still talking about Windows software.Jun 19 04:44
DaemonXPit's not Windows softwareJun 19 04:45
DaemonXPthey have Mac and Linux versions that perform equally wellJun 19 04:45
DaemonXPjust the Linux types are weird and won't make any decent frontends that let you select your own encoderJun 19 04:46
DaemonXPas in, integrated with a media playerJun 19 04:46
DaemonXPthey all force you to use FAACJun 19 04:46
DaemonXPor ffmpegJun 19 04:46
DaemonXPso you have to jerry rig your ownJun 19 04:47
DaemonXPin perl or somethingJun 19 04:47
DaemonXPno thanksJun 19 04:47
neighborleeDaemonXP, EEK gad..please n ot NERO ;0-Jun 19 04:47
neighborleeDaemonXP, talk about bloat ;))Jun 19 04:47
neighborleeDaemonXP, and dont even talk to me about supportJun 19 04:47
DaemonXP1.82 megabytes is bloat?Jun 19 04:47
DaemonXPthat's not too bad considering all it doesJun 19 04:48
neighborleefeatures..too much..kitchen sink..nah-Jun 19 04:48
DaemonXPno, talking about NeroAACEncJun 19 04:48
DaemonXPit's freewareJun 19 04:48
neighborleeah0Jun 19 04:48
DaemonXPnah, I'd never use Nero SuiteJun 19 04:49
DaemonXPbut it's not really bloated on Linux actuallyJun 19 04:49
DaemonXPcause all they have ported is Nero Burning ROM with their AAC encoder integratedJun 19 04:49
DaemonXPthe Windows version is just bat shit crazy and terribly overpricedJun 19 04:50
DaemonXPthe Linux version isn't so badJun 19 04:50
twitterACPI just took a few hours out of my life.Jun 19 04:50
DaemonXPtook a few of mine too, on LinuxJun 19 04:51
twitterI set up an old computer with integrated Intel video.Jun 19 04:51
DaemonXPhaving to compile a customized DSDT table and compile it into initrdJun 19 04:51
twitterthe kind with free software 3D accel.Jun 19 04:51
DaemonXPwaiting for Foxconn to sort it outJun 19 04:51
DaemonXPwhich they didJun 19 04:51
twitternothing seemed to work.Jun 19 04:51
twitterTurning off ACPI fixed it.Jun 19 04:51
DaemonXPGRUB2 it pretty goodJun 19 04:51
DaemonXPI tried it outJun 19 04:52
twitterHate ACPI.Jun 19 04:52
DaemonXPthe old GRUB hasn't been updated since 1996Jun 19 04:52
DaemonXPit's spaghetti code and scaryJun 19 04:52
twitterACPI - Power Management Poison http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/183403Jun 19 04:52
DaemonXPjust as often, it's a Linux bugJun 19 04:52
DaemonXPeven the developers will tell you thatJun 19 04:53
twitterAdvanced Computer Poison InterfaceJun 19 04:53
DaemonXPIf Linux ACPI does not behave like the current version of WindowsJun 19 04:53
DaemonXPit is a bug in LinuxJun 19 04:53
DaemonXPand that's a factJun 19 04:53
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 04:53
DaemonXPby design, Linux is supposed to support ACPI extensions of WindowsJun 19 04:54
DaemonXPif it's not, that's a bug that should be fixedJun 19 04:54
DaemonXPthe BIOS bug I experienced was apparently corrected for by Windows XP and Vista but not in LinuxJun 19 04:55
DaemonXPso it was both a BIOS bug and a Linux bugJun 19 04:55
DaemonXPand patched on both endsJun 19 04:55
DaemonXP:DJun 19 04:55
DaemonXPMatthew Garrett wrote a patch for Linux to make it behave like Windows Vista for that wake from suspend functionJun 19 04:56
DaemonXP3 lines of code and millions of Linux systems now resume from suspendJun 19 04:56
DaemonXPsometimes shit happensJun 19 04:56
neighborleefaac sounds interestingJun 19 05:00
DaemonXP1.28 raises its status from crap to "It'll do in a pinch"Jun 19 05:01
DaemonXP:DJun 19 05:01
DaemonXPall the best FAAC developers left and went to work for NeroJun 19 05:01
DaemonXPbut it still gets some love now and thenJun 19 05:03
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DaemonXP"Sandisk - We're just one letter off from those painful memories of Windows 98"Jun 19 05:48
DaemonXP:DJun 19 05:48
DaemonXPSandisk is now making micro SD cards with MP3s preloaded on them that you just pop into the playerJun 19 05:50
DaemonXPthey're selling them for not much more than the price of a CDJun 19 05:50
DaemonXPnoticed them in Walmart the other dayJun 19 05:50
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mib_ryweipschestowitz:  possible replacement app for F-spot in development:Jun 19 05:58
mib_ryweiphttp://santanu-sinha.blogspot.com/2009/06/solang.htmlJun 19 05:58
mib_ryweipSolangJun 19 05:58
mib_ryweipStill very early in development though, not ready for use yet.Jun 19 05:59
mib_ryweipLooks to be written in C++Jun 19 05:59
*DaemonXP wants a suitable Banshee replacementJun 19 06:01
mib_ryweipHow's Songbird coming along?Jun 19 06:03
mib_ryweipAnd, I wonder, could that serve as a default app instead of Banshee, if Rhythmbox must be removed.Jun 19 06:04
DaemonXPI'd never give up Winamp for SongbirdJun 19 06:05
DaemonXPSongbird is pretty bloated and featurelessJun 19 06:05
mib_ryweipeh, I wouldn't know.  I still haven't used it much yet.Jun 19 06:06
DaemonXPcompare resource use with Banhee or Rhythmbox if you're on LinuxJun 19 06:06
DaemonXPor Winamp if you use WindowsJun 19 06:06
DaemonXPSongbird easily takes double the memoryJun 19 06:06
DaemonXPor moreJun 19 06:06
DaemonXPand doesn't even have auto tag, encoder, transcoder, or any video abilityJun 19 06:07
mib_ryweipFrom what I hear, the Amarok 2.x line may not yet be on par with the 1.x line.  Sad.Jun 19 06:07
DaemonXPit's notJun 19 06:07
neighborleeDaemonXP, I h ad no idea we now had players of that typeJun 19 06:08
DaemonXPbetter Last FM support at leastJun 19 06:08
DaemonXPwhat type?Jun 19 06:08
neighborleesd cardsJun 19 06:09
neighborleeportable as inJun 19 06:09
neighborleeor did you mean non portableJun 19 06:09
mib_ryweipOk, I haven't yet used KDE 4, but I started with KDE 3.5.x.  How long is it going to take for KDE 4 to get up to speed?Jun 19 06:09
DaemonXPthey're compatible with any player that has a micro SD portJun 19 06:10
DaemonXPSandisk sells Flash memory, the MP3's are basically a bonus to sweeten the dea lfor buying Sandisk brand flash memoryJun 19 06:10
neighborleemib_ryweip, I see nothing wrong wit rhythmbox , better be a good reason other than its not a c# app ,cant verify myself atm but ive seen plenty of comments from users-, that rhythmbox holds its own and then some...entire feature list I dont know but hey might not matter nearly as much if fedora 12 ships without mono, and the list of distros goes on ( opensuse playing with it maybe, and well we'll see where debian goes)Jun 19 06:15
DaemonXPwow, my Meat Loaf collection sounds great with these new settingsJun 19 06:15
neighborleeDaemonXP, ha, I still have my mp3 player friend gave me...im holding out for cheap ogg player but I suspect that may never happen ?;))Jun 19 06:16
DaemonXPMP3 is good enoughJun 19 06:16
twitterTrekstorJun 19 06:16
DaemonXPmost of the worst patents on it have already expiredJun 19 06:16
DaemonXPthe rest will over the next few yearsJun 19 06:16
neighborleenot the point,but sure.Jun 19 06:16
twitterhttp://www.google.com/search?q=trekstor+ogg+player&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Jun 19 06:16
DaemonXPI don't get itJun 19 06:16
DaemonXPVorbis is not really anything to write home aboutJun 19 06:17
DaemonXPit works, more power to you I guessJun 19 06:17
neighborleewell you could argue gimp isnt either comared to PS,but...Jun 19 06:17
neighborleeor blender to 3dmax or mayaJun 19 06:17
neighborleeor..or..;)Jun 19 06:17
DaemonXPwell, GIMP is free and PS is hundreds of dollarsJun 19 06:17
DaemonXPnobody can stop you from using MP3Jun 19 06:17
DaemonXPthey've triedJun 19 06:17
DaemonXP:DJun 19 06:17
neighborleethey would never choice is MINE sayeth leeJun 19 06:18
neighborleeall kidding aside..I just like free formats..always have been always will beJun 19 06:18
neighborleeymmvJun 19 06:18
DaemonXPMP3 effectively is a free formatJun 19 06:19
DaemonXPwhat are they going to do? take the billions of copies of LAME source code away?Jun 19 06:19
TLintonwhen does the mp3 patents expire?Jun 19 06:19
TLintoni heard it's soon, i thinkJun 19 06:19
DaemonXPDecember 2012 is when the decoder patents finish expiringJun 19 06:19
DaemonXPa lot of them already haveJun 19 06:19
DaemonXPit started expiring in late 2007Jun 19 06:20
TLintonahJun 19 06:20
TLintonbut thenJun 19 06:20
DaemonXPseveral expired last yearJun 19 06:20
TLintonthat's when the world ends :)Jun 19 06:20
DaemonXPone has this yearJun 19 06:20
DaemonXP:DJun 19 06:20
mib_ryweipneighborlee:  I have no problem with Rhythmbox, other than I don't use it (or Banshee).  I'd rather not see it replaced, but if it does get replaced, I'd rather see it replaced with anything except Banshee.Jun 19 06:20
neighborleeTLinton, LOLJun 19 06:20
TLintonperhaps the two events are relatedJun 19 06:20
TLintoni saw there's a movie coming outJun 19 06:20
neighborleeTLinton, you and my friend..he is so sure of it..mayan dude told him soJun 19 06:20
DaemonXPMP3 will continue to be popularJun 19 06:20
DaemonXPVorbis just isn't compellingJun 19 06:20
TLintonneighborlee, i knowJun 19 06:21
neighborleeTLinton, haJun 19 06:21
TLintonit's the big thing nowJun 19 06:21
TLintonwith the cultists and craziesJun 19 06:21
mib_ryweipMost of that is just marketingJun 19 06:21
DaemonXPVorbis would have to give you something worth using it forJun 19 06:21
TLintonit's gonna get worse and worseJun 19 06:21
neighborleemib_ryweip, dittoJun 19 06:21
mib_ryweippeople can make money of the "cultists and crazies" so they will try toJun 19 06:21
DaemonXPnobody cares how it's licensed because you can encode and decode MP3 with anything tooJun 19 06:21
TLintonnobody ever went after the liblame folks, right?Jun 19 06:21
DaemonXPuntil you tell them why it's worth switching in terms of "It's half the size and sounds 10 times better"Jun 19 06:22
DaemonXPit will be obscureJun 19 06:22
DaemonXPno, Lame is just source codeJun 19 06:22
neighborleeDaemonXP, but I thought it was smaller size, and quality wize just as well < unless as a dog you can discern amazing sounds>Jun 19 06:22
DaemonXPcan't sue them for describing how you "could" make an MP3 encoderJun 19 06:22
TLintonDaemonXP, right, i rememberJun 19 06:22
DaemonXP*wink*Jun 19 06:22
TLintonyou have to build your ownJun 19 06:22
TLintonthey don't give you binariesJun 19 06:22
TLintonrightJun 19 06:22
DaemonXPanyone can get free, legally licensed LAME encoderJun 19 06:23
DaemonXPit's built right into WinampJun 19 06:23
DaemonXPyou can pay the royalties for MP3 encoding then choose to use LAME as your encoderJun 19 06:23
DaemonXPthat's what Nullsoft didJun 19 06:23
DaemonXPthere's othersJun 19 06:23
DaemonXPthey made a lot of ill conceived design choices with Vorbis that allow MP3 with encoder tricks to still honk Vorbis's nose and pull its underwear over its headJun 19 06:25
DaemonXPmost GNU projects turn out that wayJun 19 06:25
DaemonXPit's kind of sad reallyJun 19 06:25
DaemonXPyeah, Vorbis streams can go over 320k? Who cares?Jun 19 06:25
neighborleeI would like to see examples one could download I guess then..Jun 19 06:26
DaemonXPif you go that high, you probably aren't wanting lossy encoding anywayJun 19 06:26
DaemonXPI've comparedJun 19 06:26
neighborleeyes I dont doubt that, - I would like to myself.Jun 19 06:26
DaemonXPMP3 is at the very least equal and in many cases betterJun 19 06:27
DaemonXPhmmmJun 19 06:27
DaemonXPI'll encode something in bothJun 19 06:27
DaemonXPI'm boredJun 19 06:27
DaemonXPI'll use Microsoft's compilation from their public dare to compareJun 19 06:27
neighborleeits not a pressing issue =-Jun 19 06:27
neighborleeat allJun 19 06:27
neighborleecurious yes..its up to youJun 19 06:27
mib_ryweipAs of 2012, mp3 will be a completely free format, right?  If that's the case, then ogg vs mp3 won't matter much anymore, right?Jun 19 06:29
DaemonXPcompletely public domain for decodingJun 19 06:29
DaemonXPthat's the important bitJun 19 06:29
DaemonXPany idiot with a copy of LAME can encodeJun 19 06:29
DaemonXPdecoding is what you have to distributeJun 19 06:30
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 06:30
fewaogg vorbis is a better format howeverJun 19 06:32
fewabut yes, keeping mp3's in mp3 is fineJun 19 06:32
neighborleeyupJun 19 06:33
mib_ryweipOgg gets used a lot by studios that want to save on mp3 licensing (video games that encode the sound in ogg, etc)Jun 19 06:36
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mib_ryweipThe problem is, most music players don't support ogg or flac nativelyJun 19 06:36
fewathey wouldnt licence mp3 however cause mp3 is a inferior formatJun 19 06:36
neighborleemib_ryweip, indeedJun 19 06:37
Carl_Rover2k12mib_ryweip: Songbird and Totem Player doJun 19 06:37
mib_ryweipSo most people won't know about themJun 19 06:37
fewaeven if that might have been the initial reasonJun 19 06:37
mib_ryweipI meant devicesJun 19 06:37
DaemonXPahh, this worksJun 19 06:37
fewafor video games where you control both endsJun 19 06:37
DaemonXPit's complicated to encode and will expose any problems with the encoderJun 19 06:37
Carl_Rover2k12nvm, Totem Player can'tJun 19 06:37
neighborleeI meant hardware as wellJun 19 06:37
Carl_Rover2k12I swore it did thoughJun 19 06:37
fewatotem doest support anything, it is gstreamerJun 19 06:38
fewaand gstreamer support ogg vorbis and theora is almost all defaut installsJun 19 06:38
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: oh like MPlayer, I didn't realize thatJun 19 06:38
fewano, mplayer is all internalJun 19 06:39
fewaas is vlcJun 19 06:39
fewawell they do use shared libsJun 19 06:39
Carl_Rover2k12fewa: ahh, you learn something new every dayJun 19 06:39
fewabut no gstreamerJun 19 06:39
DaemonXPlots of problem samples with lossy encoders and classical musicJun 19 06:39
fewagstreamer is like directshow or quicktimeJun 19 06:40
DaemonXPvorbis encoder is choking on thisJun 19 06:42
DaemonXPLAME zipped right throughJun 19 06:42
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neighborleecomputer not hibernating right lately  so im powering down manuallly..bbl maybe or tomorow am...cu be well and have fun ;0-Jun 19 06:48
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fewaneighborlee sudo pm-hibernateJun 19 06:48
DaemonXPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banshee_(music_player)#Helix_BansheeJun 19 06:54
DaemonXPvery coolJun 19 06:54
DaemonXP-y appears to make LAME behave like most AAC encoders in high frequency rangesJun 19 07:09
DaemonXPit gets more agressive about ditching high frequency noiseJun 19 07:09
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ziggyfishgood afternoon allJun 19 07:17
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kentma1mornin' ziggyJun 19 07:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Poll: 72% Say No to Mono in GNU/Linux (and Other Mono News) http://bit.ly/V1RrWJun 19 09:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Pulls a “Get the Facts” on Rival Web Browsers http://ping.fm/G7q9oJun 19 10:12
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Novell quietly selling pieces of itself? http://ping.fm/z8y8ZJun 19 10:27
fewaschestowitz, wow, i didnt realize before they used the same "get the facts" phraseJun 19 10:28
schestowitzThey renamed itJun 19 10:28
schestowitzto "compare"Jun 19 10:28
fewalook at the urlJun 19 10:28
fewaand the titleJun 19 10:29
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fewahttp://www.withinwindows.com/2009/06/17/oems-partners-cant-brand-windows-7-starter-either/Jun 19 10:52
fewaMicrosoft doesnt give a shit about the lawJun 19 10:53
fewaor even direct court ordersJun 19 10:53
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_Mutex_was MS told by "the law" not to fix the wallpaper ??Jun 19 10:55
fewahttp://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f9400/9462.htm C.Jun 19 10:56
_Mutex_2001, its SO OLD (and settled),, !!! Microsoft and District of Columbia Plaintiffs Settle District of Columbia Class Action LawsuitsJun 19 10:59
fewathats a consent decreeJun 19 10:59
fewahttp://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f200400/200457.htmJun 19 11:00
_Mutex_it is what it is,,, a non issue, and you think fixing the desktop background is anti-trust ?? reallyJun 19 11:01
fewadoesn't windows already have enough branding?Jun 19 11:01
_Mutex_just what's wrong with branding ??  sure if you dont like the product I can see you could have a problem with that, but geezz, its just branding, whats you're problem ??Jun 19 11:03
fewaAlso, im not saying its anti-trust, im just saying it could be construed to go beyond the Finial judgement in the ant-competitive caseJun 19 11:03
_Mutex_how ?Jun 19 11:03
_Mutex_how can fixing the wallpaper be seen as anti-competitive ??Jun 19 11:04
_Mutex_if its settled, there is not final judgemnetJun 19 11:05
oiaohmBecause OEMs for years were allowed to set it as there own branding.Jun 19 11:09
trmancowowJun 19 11:15
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_Mutex_ive been to ALOT of computer shops in my time, and been an OEM, and ive never seen that done, and if it is SO WHAT ?? again, it seems like scraping the bottom of the barrell to pull 2001 Anti-trust and Windows wallpaper to whine about, its a very very thin argument.Jun 19 11:16
trmancojust visited a site talking about internet exploder 8 and saw about 5 ads promoting chromeJun 19 11:16
fewa_Mutex_, are you arguing that Microsoft can violate any court judgement they want to?Jun 19 11:16
_Mutex_go to linux today web site and read all the Microsoft adds thenJun 19 11:16
oiaohmI am not talking about the small guys _Mutex_.   I am talking about the likes of Dell and HP.  The guys who can really get upset.Jun 19 11:16
_Mutex_sure when its settled out of court, there is NO court judgementJun 19 11:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MSNBC Manipulated Story to Hide Microsoft’s Extensive Use of Free Software < http://ping.fm/7zpdT >Jun 19 11:17
fewa"AND WHEREAS, Microsoft agrees to be bound by the provisions of this Final Judgment pending its approval by the Court; "Jun 19 11:18
_Mutex_you mean the DELL and HP that also put their own BIOS in with their promotion, or what about MS that actually do that themselves for large clients, like major banks,Jun 19 11:18
_Mutex_"pending its approval by the court" and its was settled, (ie not approved by any court)Jun 19 11:18
fewa_Mutex_, you youself are saying that its discriminationJun 19 11:19
fewaI was approvedJun 19 11:19
fewa*itJun 19 11:19
_Mutex_settling out of court, means,  well, the issue, was settled out of court, ie the court did not rule on it, it was settled between the parties, thats what settling out of court means.Jun 19 11:20
_Mutex_Im saying who cares :)Jun 19 11:20
_Mutex_why would you care that software you dont like, and dont use does something you dont want it to do ?Jun 19 11:21
oiaohm_Mutex_: Dell and hp uses ms own provided oem customistation tools to change the default background wall paper and the like _Mutex_.Jun 19 11:21
oiaohmSince it fair for Dell and hp to do that its fair that every OEM has the option.Jun 19 11:21
_Mutex_good for them,,,Jun 19 11:21
_Mutex_they can, they just have to buy a product that allows them to do so, simple.Jun 19 11:21
oiaohmTo be fair one group cannot have the option and block others to do it.Jun 19 11:21
_Mutex_You cant dictate to a company what products they sell.Jun 19 11:22
_Mutex_you can try.Jun 19 11:22
oiaohmNote any OEM system builted get the preinstallation kit to do the customisation.Jun 19 11:22
oiaohmFree of charage.Jun 19 11:22
fewa_Mutex_, The court already didJun 19 11:22
oiaohmMost decide not to bother with it.Jun 19 11:22
fewa_Mutex_, i dont need to tryJun 19 11:22
oiaohmIts what you call playing fair _Mutex_Jun 19 11:23
oiaohmSomething MS has a big problem with.Jun 19 11:23
_Mutex_no you dont need to try, whats the pointJun 19 11:23
_Mutex_Yes, its never "fair", its not all handed to you on a plate without you putting in any effort, or creating a quality product people want to use,, yes, its always someone elses fault im sureJun 19 11:24
oiaohmPlaying fair is quite simple.Jun 19 11:24
oiaohmAnd it does not mean giving up competitive advantage.Jun 19 11:25
_Mutex_and ofcourse FOSS is totally fair, they do not drop their price to zero to undercut, or form a cartell to fix product price, or engage in any "ANTI" campains, squeeky clean FOSS is :) "SURE"Jun 19 11:25
oiaohmLike splashtop does not get into trouble for not allowing defaults to be changed.Jun 19 11:25
oiaohmIt does it to everyone.Jun 19 11:25
oiaohmPlaying fair is extreamly simple.Jun 19 11:26
oiaohmDon't give it to one group and then block another group from access to it.Jun 19 11:26
fewaDon't dictate what can and cannot be done with their softwareJun 19 11:27
oiaohmOpera closed source plays fair.  Same with quite a few other companies _Mutex_Jun 19 11:27
oiaohmFOSS lots of it does allow closed source to be based on it.   So if you cannot beat them join them.Jun 19 11:28
_Mutex_Opera plays fair ?? is that why they need the EU to do their dirty work for them ?Jun 19 11:30
fewaOpera want everyone to play fairJun 19 11:30
oiaohmThe fixed pricing claim of open source is funny.   MS has at times solid windows for negitive value.Jun 19 11:30
oiaohmMS would be free to setup a open source support business.   That would work if they hand not busted up there trust with almost everyone.Jun 19 11:31
fewaBad apples have a tendency to destroy legitimate business, at the detriment of customersJun 19 11:32
oiaohmAny company has the right to place requests to anti-trust regulators.Jun 19 11:32
_Mutex_and im sure if FOSS could do that as well they would, so would (or how loudly) would you complain if MS droped their price to the same as FOSS, effectively killing FOSS ?? you would be straight to  the courts crying foul.Jun 19 11:32
oiaohmMS has placed claims to US anti-trust regulators over google _Mutex_Jun 19 11:32
oiaohmSo why does not opera have the same right.Jun 19 11:32
fewa_Mutex_, noone would complain if microsoft open-sourced their OSJun 19 11:33
_Mutex_and FOSS has never placed any anti-trust claims, (PLEASE)Jun 19 11:33
oiaohmEveryone has the right to _Mutex_Jun 19 11:33
_Mutex_Im not talking about open sourcing it,Jun 19 11:33
oiaohmSamba did.Jun 19 11:33
_Mutex_im talking about giving it away for freeJun 19 11:33
oiaohmAgainst microsoft.Jun 19 11:33
_Mutex_exactly my pointJun 19 11:33
fewaRed hat did inn switzerlndJun 19 11:33
fewa*Red Hat did in SwitzerlandJun 19 11:33
oiaohmMind you thinking MS network protocals are not MS's they are samba's _Mutex_Jun 19 11:33
fewa_Mutex_, MS gives away their software for free all the timeJun 19 11:34
fewaits their business strategyJun 19 11:34
fewain china, brazil, in the 80s in the USJun 19 11:34
_Mutex_as it is FOSS's tooJun 19 11:34
_Mutex_your point is ?Jun 19 11:34
oiaohmSamba is the lead body in charge of maining common implementations of SMB and releated protocals _Mutex_Jun 19 11:34
MinceR_Mutex_: head up: you're full of shitJun 19 11:34
oiaohmMS use to work hand and hand with Samba over it until about 1999Jun 19 11:34
MinceRthere's FLOSS sold for moneyJun 19 11:35
_Mutex_chicken before egg, samba was created from MS's Netx/IPX protocols. know your history.Jun 19 11:35
fewaSelling support is a legitimate, sound businessJun 19 11:35
_Mutex_sure it is, ask RHJun 19 11:35
oiaohmSamba was created from the sun protocal SMB.Jun 19 11:35
_Mutex_whats your point ?Jun 19 11:35
oiaohmThat MS Netx was created off of.Jun 19 11:36
oiaohmMS is not the source of that protocal.Jun 19 11:36
oiaohmThey are the high jacker of it.Jun 19 11:36
oiaohmOne they kinda lost in the EU courts.Jun 19 11:36
fewa_Mutex_, Microsoft embraces, extends, and extinguishes. That is clearly anti-competitiveJun 19 11:36
oiaohmOver that very point _Mutex_Jun 19 11:36
MinceR_Mutex_: my point is that you're either talking about stuff you know nothing about or you're telling lies.Jun 19 11:36
_Mutex_nice sweeping statement, that does not really mean that muchJun 19 11:36
MinceR_Mutex_: in general.Jun 19 11:37
fewathats pretty much sums up _Mutex_Jun 19 11:37
oiaohmLot of anti-trust cases MS has lost because they have done the wrong things.Jun 19 11:37
oiaohmLot of other companies have lost as well.Jun 19 11:37
_Mutex_point me to where I have not told the truth, if you think i have ill be happy to provide proof, as I would expect from  youJun 19 11:37
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oiaohmIt would be possiable for a open source project to loss as well.Jun 19 11:37
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MinceR_Mutex_: i point you to all the lines you've sent so far.Jun 19 11:38
oiaohmJust at this stage no one has been able to form a good enough case _Mutex_Jun 19 11:38
_Mutex_so just because you are found for anti-trust, that DOES NOT mean everything you do is, and you know that,Jun 19 11:38
oiaohmAnti-trust law is open to everyone to use.Jun 19 11:38
_Mutex_well a good enough case (or not one) is not guilt,Jun 19 11:38
_Mutex_its a trumped up charge that does not stick.Jun 19 11:38
oiaohmSamba case was not trumped up.Jun 19 11:38
fewathe cult of Windows is alot like the cult of ScientologyJun 19 11:39
oiaohmWorking with a standard body for many years then decide stuff it I will do what I like.Jun 19 11:39
oiaohmTurns out not to be allowed.Jun 19 11:39
_Mutex_link the samba case please,Jun 19 11:39
_Mutex_what was the ruling ?Jun 19 11:39
oiaohmMS had to release there protocal information _Mutex_Jun 19 11:39
_Mutex_link pleaseJun 19 11:40
oiaohmhttp://blogs.fsfe.org/ciaran/?p=163Jun 19 11:40
oiaohmIf you dig around there is tons on it _Mutex_Jun 19 11:41
oiaohmSamba runs the implementation compare between all the different SMB protocal stacks.    These do include other closed source implenetations other than windows.Jun 19 11:42
oiaohmSomething MS has never run either _Mutex_Jun 19 11:43
oiaohmSUN run it before Samba took over that operation.Jun 19 11:43
fewaMicrosoft emraced, extended, and extinguishedJun 19 11:43
fewaand then attempts to blame the victimJun 19 11:44
_Mutex_and how did they do that in this case Fewa ?Jun 19 11:44
oiaohmBefore 1999 MS was not doing that great in the server business.Jun 19 11:44
oiaohmThey had a lot of competiors.Jun 19 11:44
oiaohmAfter they closed up they locked competting systems out.Jun 19 11:45
oiaohmSo the did very well thank you _Mutex_Jun 19 11:45
oiaohmBreach of trust was highly profitable.Jun 19 11:45
oiaohmThey did extinguish lot of competition.Jun 19 11:47
oiaohmFOSS simply lasted long enough and was strong enough to push the anti-trust case forward _Mutex_Jun 19 11:47
oiaohmMS did blame the victims by saying if they could not develop better techs they deserved to die.Jun 19 11:49
oiaohmAnyone with the idea that MS has a clean track record is fooling themselves.Jun 19 11:50
MinceRFLOSS survived because m$ couldn't figure out how to attack it soon enough.Jun 19 11:51
fewaThey still dont know how to attack itJun 19 11:51
MinceRthey have some ideas thoughJun 19 11:51
fewaand they have admitted that many timesJun 19 11:51
MinceRthey probably could if they had the moneyJun 19 11:51
MinceR(buy laws that prohibit it, everywhere)Jun 19 11:51
fewaThey would just hire everybody upJun 19 11:52
oiaohmReally the world is poorer for all the competiton MS has removed from the market.Jun 19 11:52
MinceRand for all the advancement they've destroyedJun 19 11:52
oiaohmI would not mind more closed source in the game.Jun 19 11:52
fewaway many corrupt everprises workJun 19 11:52
fewahire the criticizers to make them shut upJun 19 11:52
MinceRproprietary is welcome to competeJun 19 11:52
MinceRm$ just doesn't want to and can't competeJun 19 11:53
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oiaohmBasically _Mutex_ we are not anti commerical companies.   We are just anti those who decide they can intentionally seek to completely destroy there competition.Jun 19 11:54
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_Mutex_That is in the eye of the beholder, if you think MS is trying to destroy you, thats your opinion, most dont see it, and if you belive MS is destroying advancement, why if not FOSS the shining light of quality and functionality, and a strong united community in its own right.Jun 19 11:55
_Mutex_and your lucky you dont mind propreitary, because there the roots of your Linux, and most of your apps.Jun 19 11:56
oiaohmMS breaching standards goes against standards.   FOSS project who have tried it have ended up dead.Jun 19 11:56
oiaohmWe are not selective here.Jun 19 11:56
_Mutex_some FOSS products have been able to compete in terms of quality, but most have not, this means there is no monopoly, only an imagined one, its a perception of quality,Jun 19 11:56
_Mutex_IF firefox can make it, so should linuxJun 19 11:56
oiaohmProblem here was are not all about FOSS.Jun 19 11:57
oiaohmWe would like to see more competition.Jun 19 11:57
oiaohmIt does not just have to be FOSSJun 19 11:57
MinceR_Mutex_: m$ described it pretty obviously themselves in the internal mail that got out.Jun 19 11:57
_Mutex_people breach standards all the time, standards also change, they get revised, droped or just not cared about, its not something you can legislate to useJun 19 11:57
MinceR_Mutex_: in the halloween documents, in the evidence used in the m$ vs. Comes case, and in other papers.Jun 19 11:58
_Mutex_you cannot force people to use the centronics port standard if they dont want to,Jun 19 11:58
MinceR_Mutex_: perhaps you should look past the money m$ pays you.Jun 19 11:58
oiaohm_Mutex_: how do you define breaching standards.Jun 19 11:58
_Mutex_evidence in a settled case is meaningless.Jun 19 11:58
oiaohmTrue breaching of standards is altering the way the work undocumented so no one else can make the standard work right.Jun 19 11:59
MinceRso let's just ignore m$ internal emails because they're uncomfortable to you?Jun 19 11:59
oiaohmAltering of standards in inside the rules of standards.Jun 19 11:59
MinceR_Mutex_: it must be real easy to win arguments when you can just discard all evidence that opposes you.Jun 19 11:59
_Mutex_I might make a video card that does not comply with the APG standard,,  so what ?? its a standard, and I just violated itJun 19 11:59
oiaohmHappens with opengl all the time.Jun 19 11:59
_Mutex_am I allowed to do that,, damn straight I am.Jun 19 12:00
MinceR_Mutex_: will you sell it as an AGP video card?Jun 19 12:00
_Mutex_Yes,Jun 19 12:00
_Mutex_especially as its AGP2, ANOTHER STANDARDJun 19 12:00
MinceR_Mutex_: then prepare to lose some lawsuits.Jun 19 12:00
_Mutex_or PCI, another standardJun 19 12:00
oiaohmLook closer at those standards.Jun 19 12:00
_Mutex_or ISAJun 19 12:00
oiaohmThey are backed by hardware patents.  You don't follow them you end up in major trouble.Jun 19 12:01
MinceR_Mutex_: for example, m$ promotes IE as a web browser, even though it violates web standards. they're lying to their clients and they should be punished for that.Jun 19 12:01
_Mutex_or S100 for that matter, or none at all, I can just make up my own.Jun 19 12:01
_Mutex_so whatJun 19 12:01
oiaohmProduced blocked from sale.Jun 19 12:01
_Mutex_you're allowed to do that,Jun 19 12:01
oiaohmDifferent standards you cannot breach.Jun 19 12:01
_Mutex_VHS is a video standard, but so is Beta Max, its not illegal to use one or the otherJun 19 12:01
oiaohmIts that simple.Jun 19 12:01
_Mutex_and your crazy to think it is.Jun 19 12:01
oiaohmIts not illegal to have multiable standards.Jun 19 12:02
_Mutex_thankyouJun 19 12:02
MinceR_Mutex_: once again you ignore the point because you can't refute it.Jun 19 12:02
_Mutex_its also not illegal not to comply with any of them.Jun 19 12:02
_Mutex_ill refute anything you like,Jun 19 12:02
oiaohmBut patent protected standards making something that is closed but minorally altered will land your producted in the never to be sold bin.Jun 19 12:02
MinceR_Mutex_: looks like you won'tJun 19 12:02
MinceR_Mutex_: you've never done so thus farJun 19 12:02
MinceR_Mutex_: btw how much does m$ pay you for this?Jun 19 12:03
_Mutex_read up on standards, they can be patent encumbered,Jun 19 12:03
oiaohmYep.Jun 19 12:03
_Mutex_mabey VHS video is patented, its still a standard,Jun 19 12:03
_Mutex_so whatJun 19 12:03
oiaohmMaking something close to VHS not following standard would be breach of usage of patent terms.Jun 19 12:03
_Mutex_ive never been payed by MS, and Im not even talking about MS im talking now about standards and video's casstte recorders,Jun 19 12:04
_Mutex_preach of patent yes,Jun 19 12:04
_Mutex_soJun 19 12:04
oiaohmYou took it into hardware _Mutex_Jun 19 12:04
_Mutex_I took it into standards,Jun 19 12:04
oiaohmIf you did not want to go into hardware you should have never taken it there.Jun 19 12:04
oiaohmNo you brought up PCI AGP ... That are all patent protected.Jun 19 12:05
_Mutex_standards are not hardware or software, they are standards, find out what a standard is,, then argue.Jun 19 12:05
oiaohmYou cannot just alter the implementation at will with them.Jun 19 12:05
_Mutex_what are standards not hardwareJun 19 12:05
oiaohmDifferent types of standards have different forms of protections.Jun 19 12:06
oiaohmstandards covering hardware interfaces have patents to protect themJun 19 12:07
oiaohmsoftware covering standards like tcp/ip stack use anti-trust to protect them.Jun 19 12:07
MinceR_Mutex_: do you own m$ stock?Jun 19 12:07
_Mutex_standards only have protection within the scope of the standard, and not beyond, do try to keep up, and as I said, standards can have patents in them, so if you want to comply to that standard you may have to pay licensing, if you dont want to do that you dont work to that standard,Jun 19 12:08
_Mutex_you use another one, or make up your own.Jun 19 12:08
oiaohmBasically breach standards expect to find yourself in 1  court or anotehr.Jun 19 12:08
_Mutex_anyone can do it, its totally legal, and to expect otherwise is very counter productive, because your standard might be old, or faulty,Jun 19 12:08
_Mutex_or not popular,Jun 19 12:08
oiaohmMS case they took standards and processed to alter them in a way they were compadible with them but broke others compadible.Jun 19 12:08
oiaohmThen claimed to be using X standard.Jun 19 12:09
oiaohmNow that is how to get your ass kicked.Jun 19 12:09
_Mutex_Beta max (standard) is technically better than VHS, but VHS became the popular standard, it wonJun 19 12:09
_Mutex_so if you wanted to sell video recorders, you have to comply to VHS standard, even if you have to pay a patent royality,Jun 19 12:10
oiaohmNow if someone sold you a Beta Max machine and said it was VHS would not not want to kill them.Jun 19 12:10
oiaohmThat is basically what MS did with standards in a lot of places.Jun 19 12:10
_Mutex_you could refuse to pay and no comply with the standard, or use Beta, but you would not sell product.Jun 19 12:10
oiaohmYou have payed.Jun 19 12:10
MinceR_Mutex_: also, what do you think happens if you sign up for a government tender that requires you to comply with certain standards and you violate them?Jun 19 12:10
_Mutex_If they sold me a beta and said it was a VHS they were lying, whats that got to do with standards ?? silly propositionJun 19 12:11
oiaohmThat is what MS has done.Jun 19 12:11
MinceR_Mutex_: that's what m$ keeps doingJun 19 12:11
_Mutex_if you have a control to comply with a standard to do so, ,, whats your point ?Jun 19 12:11
oiaohmIf fine if MS wanted to create there own standard.Jun 19 12:12
oiaohmAnd named it differently.Jun 19 12:12
oiaohmNo one would have a issue.Jun 19 12:12
oiaohmin a lot of cases.Jun 19 12:12
MinceRi'd still ridicule them for itJun 19 12:12
MinceRbecause in their case it's usually simply NIH syndromeJun 19 12:12
_Mutex_I know you hate it, but you know deep down MS is the standard, defacto or not, its what everyone uses as a standard. Thats just how it is.Jun 19 12:13
oiaohmWith web standards.  Standard said how tags should be processed.  Many places until recently MS did not follow.Jun 19 12:13
MinceR_Mutex_: no it's notJun 19 12:13
oiaohmEven that web standard allowed browsers to create there own tags in case of those problems.Jun 19 12:13
oiaohmMS altered the tags in the standard.Jun 19 12:13
MinceR_Mutex_: when w3c or OASIS or IETF defines a standard, it doesn't become m$'s when they implement something and claim it's an implementation of that standard.Jun 19 12:13
_Mutex_mabey not in your world, but in the "real" world it is,  but I dont mind what you belive,Jun 19 12:13
MinceR_Mutex_: you know nothing about the real worldJun 19 12:14
_Mutex_sure :)Jun 19 12:14
MinceR_Mutex_: all you talk is m$ propaganda and non-sequiturs.Jun 19 12:14
oiaohmReal world of standards is simple breach it sooner or latter you will get into trouble.Jun 19 12:14
oiaohmMS has breached a lot.Jun 19 12:14
_Mutex_OK sure they will,Jun 19 12:14
oiaohmMS is finding now they are being forced more and more to follow standards.Jun 19 12:15
oiaohmOr they don't get contracts.Jun 19 12:15
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oiaohmBasically no one who wants to do business long term should go out of there way to breach standards.Jun 19 12:16
oiaohmMS has so MS has to pay the price _Mutex_Jun 19 12:16
_Mutex_as is the same for FOSS it is in their interests to estiblish and maintain their own standardsJun 19 12:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Do Citrix and Black Duck Help Microsoft Embrace (and Extend) “Open Source” http://ping.fm/zgQYVJun 19 12:17
oiaohmOpen source/closed source anyone who goes out of there way to breach standards should expect the same fate.Jun 19 12:17
_Mutex_because the most popular standards always wins, and the others go away.Jun 19 12:17
oiaohmWhat make a standard popular.Jun 19 12:17
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_Mutex_do I have to explain to you what popular means ?Jun 19 12:18
_Mutex_used by the majorityJun 19 12:18
oiaohmFunny enough is number of different implementors providing the same standard.Jun 19 12:18
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_Mutex_used as a "standard" format for intra-businesss communications.Jun 19 12:18
schestowitzIt's disappointing that Matt Asay parrots this nonsense from Black Duck. http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.blackducksoftware.com+microsoft&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8&hl=enJun 19 12:18
oiaohmNo single entity has enough power to maintain a standard as long term popular.Jun 19 12:19
oiaohmNot even MS _Mutex_Jun 19 12:19
_Mutex_so a "350 chev" is not a poplar standard that is not long term popular, or one of a million other "standards"Jun 19 12:20
_Mutex_a single entity does not have too either,Jun 19 12:21
oiaohmA single entity did not build all the parts that make up the 350 chev.Jun 19 12:21
schestowitzSingapore girls show off Korean phones  <  http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1356927/singapore-girls-korean-phones > \0/Jun 19 12:21
_Mutex_good thing about standards its to allow people to comply with it, and if they have patents you pay the royalities, so you can comply with it, if its so popular that you cannot make money from your product otherwise.Jun 19 12:22
_Mutex_Thats right oiaohm, my point exactlyJun 19 12:22
oiaohmTake spark plugs.Jun 19 12:22
oiaohmThosands of different makers make them to standard.Jun 19 12:22
_Mutex_exactly, they all benifit from the standardJun 19 12:22
oiaohmIf they did not cars would not work.Jun 19 12:22
oiaohmMulti different implementors make a standard popular.Jun 19 12:23
_Mutex_thankyou for confirming exactly what im saying,Jun 19 12:23
oiaohmNow manage 350 chev if they decide to have a unique sparkplug.Jun 19 12:23
oiaohmOnly buyable form chev.Jun 19 12:23
oiaohmThat is what MS did _Mutex_Jun 19 12:23
oiaohmNot good for consumer because the bit would be over priced.Jun 19 12:24
_Mutex_it still takes the successfull implementation of that standard (350 chev) for it to be successfull, regardless of the quality of the spark plugs,Jun 19 12:24
_Mutex_if it was a unique sparkplug it would not be a "350 chev" then,Jun 19 12:24
oiaohmMain part a 350 chev that is unique is the engine block.Jun 19 12:24
oiaohmRest really is not.Jun 19 12:25
oiaohmMS could have made there OS core unique and allowed standards to work everywhere else.Jun 19 12:25
_Mutex_sorry an engine block is not a 350 chev, its a damn engine block,, geez.Jun 19 12:25
_Mutex_do better pleaseJun 19 12:25
splosionVirtualBox is going to start supporting DirectX. Whoa. This might end up making a lot of dual-booters ditch their Windows partitions.Jun 19 12:25
oiaohmPull up the parts of the models around a 350 chev _Mutex_Jun 19 12:26
schestowitzsplosion: unless they use WineJun 19 12:26
schestowitzWine gets dx10 support (now partial)Jun 19 12:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Iranians using British software to crash official websites: TV http://ping.fm/AxyIG True gentlemenJun 19 12:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Freedom of expression: Arabic blogosphere begins to bloom < http://ping.fm/miqhj > This can help equality.Jun 19 12:27
schestowitzMicrosoft would love to wage war against wine when people run their legacy apps on GNU/Linux and Windows market share falls below 80%Jun 19 12:27
_Mutex_your confused between a product or device and a standard, find out the difference, then ill botherJun 19 12:27
oiaohm_Mutex_: funny part they all overlap.Jun 19 12:28
oiaohmCars/trucks are build using lot of standard parts.Jun 19 12:28
splosionschestowitz: Wine does that now? I didn't know. That tells you how much I play games, then :PJun 19 12:28
oiaohmEven standard parts between models.  To save development costs.Jun 19 12:29
_Mutex_they dont really, its like comparing a building to a drawing of a building,Jun 19 12:29
oiaohmIts like KIA cars.   They are purely build from parts designed for other cars.Jun 19 12:29
oiaohmSaves development costs.Jun 19 12:30
_Mutex_I know that, so what ??Jun 19 12:30
oiaohmIf every time you created a new car you went completely back to starting costs blow out.Jun 19 12:30
oiaohmReason why most cars are based on evoliving standards.Jun 19 12:31
splosionhttp://mps-expenses.guardian.co.uk/ Holy shit. What a great idea. The Guardian have put 700,000 pages of MP's expenses data online for people to review.Jun 19 12:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Software for cracking wireless keyboard encryption published < http://ping.fm/CIr2L >Jun 19 12:32
_Mutex_I know you will have heaps of trouble with this, but by definition standards dont change, RS-232 will always be RS-232 is will not evolve to RS-485 they are 2 different and separate standards, and they dont change EVER,Jun 19 12:33
oiaohmNot all.Jun 19 12:34
_Mutex_like video card standards AGP will always be AGP,  and AGP2 is a totally new standard.Jun 19 12:34
oiaohmWhat is a evolving standard.Jun 19 12:34
_Mutex_you know what a "standard" is right, the definition of the word ??Jun 19 12:35
schestowitzhttp://mps-expenses.guardian.co.uk/page/4136/ Cool.Jun 19 12:35
oiaohmevolving is a key word.Jun 19 12:35
_Mutex_like "standard" unit of length..Jun 19 12:35
_Mutex_evolving is the wrong word..Jun 19 12:35
oiaohmstandard that when it was created was designed to have latter versions.Jun 19 12:35
splosionschestowitz: good findJun 19 12:36
oiaohmthose are preformed standard groupsJun 19 12:36
_Mutex_you got it, later versions are NOT the earlier versions, and the earlir versions do not change, they stay their own standard, (its not that hard)Jun 19 12:36
oiaohmYet evoluling standard latter standard will be based on the prior standard.Jun 19 12:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is really great: http://ping.fm/utI1r Transparency? Finally? http://ping.fm/IyZ0oJun 19 12:37
oiaohmSo they are not 100 percent new each time _Mutex_Jun 19 12:37
_Mutex_based on, its "NOT THE SAME AS" and it does NOT change the previous standard, as you well knowJun 19 12:37
splosion"Categorize this as flaming if you wish, but that is exactly the kind of reasoning unscrupulous people use to justify continuing violation of moral and legal conventions. Other variations include but are not limited to "don't hate the player, hate the game" and "screw or be screwed". All amount to the same thing, and all are inexcusable."Jun 19 12:37
splosion"Believe it or not, the majority of people entrusted with power over the lives of others live up to the minimal expectation that this trust will not be broken. The word that describes this is integrity, and no amount of fallacious reasoning will erase the fact that you lack it."Jun 19 12:37
_Mutex_ofcourse they are not,Jun 19 12:37
splosionSometimes I wonder why I still read /., and then I see a comment like that rated 5 and all of a sudden I remember. ^^Jun 19 12:38
oiaohmThere are standard that strictly enforce that _Mutex_Jun 19 12:38
oiaohmLike AGP2 slot must be able to operate older agp1 cards.Jun 19 12:39
oiaohmBy the way w3c standards do state newer versions cannot break older versions.Jun 19 12:40
_Mutex_but agp1 is still agp1, you're not proving anything except that what ive been saying is right, and yes, many standards are downwards compatible, but some are not, but doesnt matter, its nto the issue, its still 2 seperate standards, agp(1) will always be exactly the same, if its not it will be called something different,Jun 19 12:40
oiaohmYou missed what evoluling standard means.Jun 19 12:41
oiaohmThey are yes multiable standards.  But no they are not unique.  They are releations.Jun 19 12:42
_Mutex_I know what evolving technologies means and I know it requires NEW and different standards, but USB will be USB, and USB2.0 will be 2.0 they are NOT the same standardJun 19 12:42
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schestowitzAs Expected, Bill Introduced To Outlaw Tiered Bandwidth Pricing < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090618/0028085273.shtml >Jun 19 12:43
oiaohmBut being a evolution standard of USB it mainatains backwards compadiblity.Jun 19 12:43
_Mutex_the original USB standard is and will always be exactly the same,  otherwise you dont have a clue what a standard actually is, then I suggest you spend 10 minutes reading up on it,  at least get a wiki definition or somethingJun 19 12:43
oiaohmAs what was set down when the first usb standard was created.Jun 19 12:44
schestowitzIf You Get Shot, You Don't Get To Blame Craigslist For Hosting An Ad For The Gun Dealer Where The Shooter Bought The Gun < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090618/0113385275.shtml >Jun 19 12:44
oiaohmThat following forms of it would maintain device compadiblity.Jun 19 12:44
_Mutex_otherwise its not point in debating you, because you dont get the basic part.Jun 19 12:44
oiaohmBecause you want me to say yes so You can say MS was right.Jun 19 12:44
oiaohmSorry _Mutex_Jun 19 12:44
oiaohmStandards have rules.Jun 19 12:44
oiaohmYou want to make a releation to USB 1 you maintain device compadilityJun 19 12:45
oiaohmThat is obeying it form.Jun 19 12:45
_Mutex_show me a standard that has changed, like RS-232,  not any variants of it ,, IT EXACTLY, you wont be able too because its crazy.Jun 19 12:45
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_Mutex_gee standards have rules, by definition yes, they are standards,, standards like the standard INCH does not change goooz,, again its not that hardJun 19 12:46
oiaohmYou keep on missing that evoloving standard is not talking about 1 standard.  But a group of standards what many include rules how you are meant to built on top.Jun 19 12:48
oiaohmAnd you keep on saying I don't unstandard standards.  Problem I do.  They are not always just 1 isolated bit of paper you can use anyway you like.Jun 19 12:49
_Mutex_I know that, and I agree, but each evolution of that standard, is in itself its own and unchangable standard,Jun 19 12:49
_Mutex_sure RS-485 evolved from RS-232,Jun 19 12:49
_Mutex_but RS-232 is still its own standard, and has not changed because RS-485 exists,Jun 19 12:50
oiaohmMS tried to evolution of standards by number 1 not publishing new standard.Jun 19 12:50
_Mutex_there are now just 2 standards, not one,Jun 19 12:50
oiaohmNumber 2 claiming it was the old standard.Jun 19 12:50
oiaohmSo breach.Jun 19 12:50
_Mutex_thats a huge leap, but ok, if thats your opinion, sureJun 19 12:51
oiaohmSo MS did like claiming RS-485 was RS-232Jun 19 12:51
oiaohmWe support HTML4.  Ok opps its not HTML 4 its HTML4 with many tags altered.Jun 19 12:51
oiaohmThing dialup support same kind of thing.   Altered the hand shaking yet at first claimed it was to standard.Jun 19 12:52
_Mutex_you know, like beta max, if i dont like the product or the standard, I dont use them, I dont spend my life whinning about them, I dont use them and I get on with my life.Jun 19 12:52
oiaohmSo MS implementing HTML4 wrong and cliaming to be HTML4 following is valid? _Mutex_Jun 19 12:53
oiaohmI could list a huge list of standard MS did this with.Jun 19 12:53
_Mutex_It falls into the catagory of "who gives a flying F*&^()*&" !!! :)Jun 19 12:53
_Mutex_does it effect you ??Jun 19 12:54
oiaohmYes it does.Jun 19 12:54
oiaohmIt makes web development many times harder.Jun 19 12:54
_Mutex_ok, then you find an alternative, Im sure your not tied up and forced to do it,Jun 19 12:55
oiaohmNot if you want customers visiting sites.Jun 19 12:55
oiaohmSorry you don't have the magical option of not having the nightmare.Jun 19 12:55
_Mutex_funny all my web pages work just fine !!, go figure.Jun 19 12:56
_Mutex_so I must have the magical option installed.Jun 19 12:56
oiaohmNoJun 19 12:56
oiaohmHow much work do you think goes into making web sites do that _Mutex_Jun 19 12:57
_Mutex_you telling me I do have problems,, LOL,, gee , wow I did not know you were looking over my sholder !!Jun 19 12:57
_Mutex_Who cares,Jun 19 12:57
oiaohmYou should. Who pays for these costs _Mutex_Jun 19 12:58
_Mutex_and ive made web sites too, so I actually do know,Jun 19 12:58
oiaohmAlways the consumer always pays.Jun 19 12:59
_Mutex_and If your having so much trouble, you might want to do a course, most have no problems,Jun 19 12:59
oiaohmRecent years are a lot better than 1996-1999.Jun 19 13:00
oiaohmBut there is still more trouble with fancy sites than there should be _Mutex_Jun 19 13:00
_Mutex_considering that was last millenium yes,Jun 19 13:01
oiaohmDesigning now you see the results of people like me pushing for MS and others to follow standards.Jun 19 13:01
schestowitzDigital Britain: Tories condemn report as 'digital dithering' < http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jun/16/digital-britain-tories-condemn-digital-dithering >Jun 19 13:03
oiaohmReally _Mutex_ being a web developer you should be standard backing and presure anyone who is not attempting to follow standards.  If you don't long term it can come back and bite.Jun 19 13:05
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_Mutex_if that was the case as a programmer I should be forcing Linux to be 100% posix standard compliant as well right ??Jun 19 13:06
schestowitzVerizon and AT&T deny collusion on texting prices  <http://tech.yahoo.com/news/nm/20090617/tc_nm/us_verizon_att_antitrust  >Jun 19 13:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Just set my personal best playing Monochrome by The Ruse on #JamLegend, 37,538 points! http://is.gd/13RgoJun 19 13:07
oiaohm_Mutex_  Correct we are.Jun 19 13:07
schestowitzHow to Secure Your Windows PC and Your Privacy < http://www.scribd.com/doc/3091625/How-to-Secure-Your-Windows-PC-and-Your-Privacy. > Secure privacy with Windows? Surely it's a joke.Jun 19 13:08
schestowitzVista is apywareJun 19 13:08
schestowitz*spywareJun 19 13:08
oiaohmYou are aware _Mutex_ that at different times different Linux kernels have been fully certified Unix's.  So had to pass the posix standard.Jun 19 13:09
schestowitzhttp://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/969_signs.jpgJun 19 13:09
oiaohmAnd passing the posix standard is part of pasing Linux Standard Base as well _Mutex_Jun 19 13:09
_Mutex_at different times, so its not opposed to breaking it periodocally if it feels like it either, so its not really all that compliant,Jun 19 13:10
_Mutex_by and "standards".Jun 19 13:11
oiaohmThere is a large fee to get Unix certification.Jun 19 13:11
oiaohmIt is lack of money more than anything else.Jun 19 13:11
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_Mutex_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIXJun 19 13:11
oiaohmLinux standard base does not have a large fee.Jun 19 13:12
_Mutex_linux get into the "mostly compliant" group.Jun 19 13:12
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fewaPOSIX doesnt implament much at all of what a modern application has come to expectJun 19 13:16
fewaits a small partJun 19 13:16
splosionGah. I hate wiki maintenance.Jun 19 13:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Just set my personal best playing Monochrome by The Ruse on #JamLegend, 42,128 points! http://is.gd/13RgoJun 19 13:17
fewai hate wikiunmaintainersJun 19 13:17
splosionStill. My wiki has show/hide boxes now. HurrayJun 19 13:17
schestowitzFeinstein denies NSA abuses; Holder refuses to call them ‘illegal’ http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/06/17/feinstein-nsa-not-violating-law/Jun 19 13:18
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oiaohm_Mutex_: with the Posix one you don't read too well.Jun 19 13:21
oiaohmNot all Linux's are Posix compadible.  Items like android are not.  _Mutex_Jun 19 13:21
oiaohmMostly is quite a suitable rating.Jun 19 13:22
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oiaohmKernel alone is not enough to get posix pass _Mutex_.Jun 19 13:24
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_Mutex_and yet is is for BSD, A/IX AIX, MINIX, QNX, MacOS and so on, and all I was saying your right ontop of MS for not complying with certain standards, and its clear Linux is exactly the same, not that there is any law saying you have to comply with Posix or MS have to comply with html4 or whatever.Jun 19 13:28
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oiaohmThat argument _Mutex_Jun 19 13:30
oiaohmSo predictable and stupid.Jun 19 13:30
oiaohmYou are aware that many embed forms of BSD are not Posix compadible.Jun 19 13:31
_Mutex_so what, they dont have to be, that is my point,Jun 19 13:31
oiaohmThank you.Jun 19 13:31
oiaohmMost of the ones that make linux mostly are embeded.Jun 19 13:31
_Mutex_im not the one trying to enforce every standard that exists,, thats your barrow your pushing.Jun 19 13:32
_Mutex_and thankyou for confirming exactly my pointJun 19 13:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 350,000 more GNU/Linux desktops in a Brazilian company? http://ping.fm/jBZasJun 19 13:32
oiaohmThere is a differnce.Jun 19 13:32
oiaohmIf something says its X standard it better be X standard in my mind.Jun 19 13:32
oiaohmFind the line that I said I was enforcing every standard that existed  _Mutex_Jun 19 13:33
oiaohmYou will find there is no such line.  You made that up.Jun 19 13:33
_Mutex_but you did say "im pushing MS and others to comply with standards". I guess the "others" means linux right ??Jun 19 13:36
oiaohmYou should have asked for more information on that not presumed.Jun 19 13:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "O (Official Video) - The Prodigy" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i3j9Jun 19 13:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Chakalaka [HQ] - Whippenberg" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i3lxJun 19 13:37
_Mutex_sorry, when you said "with standards" i thought me ment um "with standards" not "some standards, or "standards you like" or standards that MS does not want too "Jun 19 13:38
oiaohmMost are pushing that if MS claims to be to X standard and it be Y  because they altered that they should have complied to the standard they said they did.Jun 19 13:38
oiaohmThere is a difference.Jun 19 13:38
_Mutex_normally when you are not specific, its hard to not accept "with standards" to mean just that, ie all standards.Jun 19 13:38
oiaohmOnly some Linux's claim to be to posix.Jun 19 13:38
oiaohmEven MS use to claim to be to posix.Jun 19 13:38
_Mutex_its called a sweeping statement, or open ended .Jun 19 13:38
oiaohmJust because they passed 1991 version of standard.Jun 19 13:38
_Mutex_so you just cliamed Linux was, that is not true eitherJun 19 13:39
oiaohmLinux LSB distributions are up to last version of posix.Jun 19 13:39
oiaohmSo current.Jun 19 13:39
oiaohmBasically if they do claim they are.Jun 19 13:40
oiaohmCan you see the difference here.Jun 19 13:40
_Mutex_so you're saying if they claim they are , they are, and if they are not they are not,, , I could of worked that one out.  but a 20 second google says they are not,, oh wellJun 19 13:40
oiaohmNot always.Jun 19 13:41
oiaohmSome of the ones that don't claim if you test are.Jun 19 13:41
oiaohmBetter to under claim than over _Mutex_Jun 19 13:42
_Mutex_my point is it does not matter, they dont have to be, just as MS or anyone does not have to comply with standards it does not need.Jun 19 13:42
oiaohmMy point is MS has claimed many times to comply to particular standards and they don't.Jun 19 13:42
oiaohmLike claiming office 2007 is ooxml sorry you pass it a ooxml standard documents they don't render right.Jun 19 13:43
oiaohmYep not even there own standards do they get right.Jun 19 13:43
oiaohmWhat is the point of creating a standard if you cannot follow it yourself.Jun 19 13:43
_Mutex_thats why over time, standards get replaced by newer or better standards, and no the old standard does not change, but the new standard may have built on the old one, (think RS-232, RS-485), both are still standards and both are dont change,Jun 19 13:45
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_Mutex_thats why no one uses the S100 buss standard anymore,Jun 19 13:45
oiaohmGoing back to that line.Jun 19 13:45
_Mutex_or centronics portsJun 19 13:45
oiaohmBeen here.Jun 19 13:45
_Mutex_or 51/4 inch floppy drive,Jun 19 13:46
oiaohmHave I said once that standards have to be kept on being used.Jun 19 13:46
oiaohmGo back.Jun 19 13:46
oiaohmNot once.Jun 19 13:46
oiaohmIts another case if you creating a line.Jun 19 13:46
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_Mutex_they dont have too, they can and do get replaced by better standards,Jun 19 13:46
oiaohmThat is normal standard evolution.Jun 19 13:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Sidekick- Deep Fear (Phobia Club Remix) - " ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i3whJun 19 13:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/xz5Ql 'Brian Goldfarb of Microsoft said in part: "it [Moonlight] is not limited just to Novell as Mono is."' Is it?Jun 19 13:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Personal Jesus (PH Electro Mix) - G&G" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i42wJun 19 13:47
oiaohmStuff MS has done does not fall into that.Jun 19 13:47
_Mutex_again, a standard by definition does not change, therefore it does not evolve, but new standards are build upon that existing standard, not alterating the original standard, that by definition cannot change,Jun 19 13:48
_Mutex_so yesJun 19 13:48
schestowitzSatellite glitch rekindles GPS concerns http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/42767Jun 19 13:48
oiaohmHow does implementing a standard wrong fit into creating a true new standard.   _Mutex_Jun 19 13:49
oiaohmSimply it don't.Jun 19 13:50
_Mutex_what, ??Jun 19 13:50
oiaohmHave you missed what I have said all along and not put why web developers should be pushing for standards from MS and the like.Jun 19 13:51
_Mutex_you dont understand what a standard is, if you implement a standard wrong, its NOT TO STANDARD, so your statement is meaningless sorry.Jun 19 13:51
oiaohm_Mutex_: not to standard is what MS has done lots of.Jun 19 13:51
oiaohmYet while claiming the item is to standard.Jun 19 13:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] UK cop: 'War on terror means no pictures of police vans in disabled parking spots' http://ping.fm/fjebFJun 19 13:52
_Mutex_thats it, next its no web sites from opposition parties, or that are critical of the government,Jun 19 13:53
oiaohmLOL.Jun 19 13:54
oiaohmYou love try to put words in my mouth.Jun 19 13:54
oiaohmAgain have I ever said anything like that _Mutex_Jun 19 13:55
_Mutex_like what ??Jun 19 13:55
_Mutex_that last comment was about the war or terror thing roy posted.  sorry, it was not directed towards you.Jun 19 13:56
_Mutex_the one before it wasJun 19 13:56
_Mutex_and I agree, its not good to state you are standard compliant if you are not,Jun 19 13:56
schestowitzNational security = security to the electibility of DemsJun 19 13:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] NSA Secret Database Ensnared President Clinton’s Private E-mail < http://ping.fm/q1TcW >Jun 19 13:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Faixa 17 vl. 1 - Orbital Mix 5" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i4haJun 19 13:57
oiaohmAnd if someone does like MS from time to time.  Be on there back until they do?  _Mutex_Jun 19 13:57
_Mutex_?Jun 19 13:57
schestowitzKids lose their summer break due to impenetrable bureaucratic mess http://www.boingboing.net/2009/06/17/kids-loose-their-sum.htmlJun 19 13:58
oiaohmIf someone claims they are to some standard and they not.  Would you not put presure on them over it until either they retract there following fo standard claim or come into alignment with standard?Jun 19 13:59
_Mutex_I dont care at all what "someone" or anyone uses or does not use, i put that in thats their own business, not mine.Jun 19 13:59
_Mutex_No I would do what everyone normally does, and if the product did not meet my needs I would not use it,Jun 19 13:59
schestowitzThomas testimony ends with tears, anger, Swedish death metal  http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/06/thomas-testimony-ends-with-tears-anger-swedish-death-metal.arsJun 19 14:00
_Mutex_standard or not if it works ill use it,Jun 19 14:00
_Mutex_and that applies to just about everyone, no one ever say "oh that does not comply with xxxx standard" but it does everything I need and work, but I wont use it.Jun 19 14:01
_Mutex_IF it works, people dont even know there is a standard, they just know it works.Jun 19 14:01
oiaohmDoes appling presure require you to not use the product.Jun 19 14:01
_Mutex_thats how it should beJun 19 14:01
schestowitzLook how tiny Eee PC used to be.... http://www.ouistiti.info/linux-music-production/linux-music-recording-with-an-eee-pc/Jun 19 14:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Faixa 4 vl. 1 - Orbital Mix 5" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i4igJun 19 14:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nice photo of Mr. HADOPI: http://ping.fm/m2vzuJun 19 14:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Voodoo People (Pendulum Remix) - The Prodigy" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i4n8Jun 19 14:02
oiaohmDocument standards are important for long term archiving.Jun 19 14:02
_Mutex_the pressure is self implied, if the product does not work, it does not sell,Jun 19 14:02
oiaohmWhen will most people find out about document archiving problems.Jun 19 14:03
oiaohmNormally many years latter after they have used the program for years.Jun 19 14:04
oiaohmNicely too late _Mutex_Jun 19 14:05
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_Mutex_seems your trying to create problems that are both trivial and allready solved.Jun 19 14:05
oiaohmLOLJun 19 14:06
_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 19 14:06
_Hicham_howdy oiaohm?Jun 19 14:06
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jun 19 14:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Personal Jesus (Kindervater Remix) Hardstyle - G&G" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i4v2Jun 19 14:07
_Hicham_openSUSE development packages are messyJun 19 14:07
oiaohm_Mutex_: I hope one day you have the joy of having to open key documents that the version of a program they were made in is lost and are failing to open correctly.Jun 19 14:07
_Hicham_a lot of libtool packages are missingJun 19 14:07
oiaohm_Mutex_:  you will lose the idea that its trivial.Jun 19 14:08
_Mutex_I will never have that problem because im not silly enough to have stored documents that have not been updated if necessary. , but hey ive only been in the computer industry since 1975, so there is time yet.Jun 19 14:09
oiaohm_Mutex_: I don't have that luck.  I do data recovery for businesses.   So they choose the documents and they take care of them.Jun 19 14:10
oiaohm_Mutex_:  not all business are that good at it.Jun 19 14:10
_Mutex_data recovery , and archiving and retrival systems are seperate issues, as you well know.Jun 19 14:10
_Mutex_and if you need to do data recovery, fire your IT guy responsible for backups, if that is not yourself, and if it is, change jobs.Jun 19 14:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "TreblesTrebles (House Music) - Benny benassi vs. MBrothers" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i50nJun 19 14:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Poker Face - The Real Booty Babes" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i58eJun 19 14:12
oiaohm_Mutex_:  There are lot of incompetent IT guys.Jun 19 14:12
_Mutex_I know it,Jun 19 14:12
oiaohmwho fail to do correct maintaince on archives and correct backups.Jun 19 14:12
oiaohmI get the jobs of sorting out there messes _Mutex_Jun 19 14:13
_Mutex_as do I, but as you know backups, and document archiving are two different things alltogether,  one is for day to day operations, the other is for long term corporate memory and legal obligations, its your responsibility to store those in a commonly readable form.Jun 19 14:15
_Mutex_like tab delimited spreadsheets, or simple txt or .doc formats, and updated (and documented) as necessary.Jun 19 14:15
oiaohmSmall businesses are particular bad for not doing that.Jun 19 14:16
_Mutex_they have too, its the law, but yes, your rightJun 19 14:16
oiaohmLaw here does not enforce it.Jun 19 14:16
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oiaohmWhere you are does not enforce it.Jun 19 14:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "On & On - Paffendorf" ♫ http://blip.fm/~8i5ceJun 19 14:17
oiaohmOnly that the documents have to stored.  Does not say formats.Jun 19 14:17
_Mutex_they do, if you do not store you transaction records for the 7 years and they ask you for them for some reason, then you are in trouble.Jun 19 14:17
_Mutex_many people break the law, and the law is not enforced, does not make it right.Jun 19 14:17
oiaohmThey have to store transations of 7 years but it perfectly find in a encrypted ms database.Jun 19 14:18
_Mutex_often it has to be in hard copy form,, usuallyJun 19 14:18
oiaohmIts not written in australian law right _Mutex_Jun 19 14:18
_Mutex_you find all business have boxes and boxes of manilla folders of records for that reasonJun 19 14:19
oiaohmI went digging for the law to drop on people.Jun 19 14:19
oiaohm7 years of storage yes.  Type used and requirements are not define.Jun 19 14:19
_Mutex_all you were saying was something about file formats over time, and I was saying its trivial and a non issue, which it is, thats all, no big deal.Jun 19 14:19
schestowitzhttp://www.fsdaily.com/Opposition/Reader_s_Article_What_Makes_Microsoft_s_Business_UnethicalJun 19 14:20
oiaohmPeople losing access to those records are a big problem _Mutex_Jun 19 14:21
oiaohmOf course simple to avoid if people do the right thing _Mutex_.  Ie use something that is standard to store is the simplest.Jun 19 14:22
_Mutex_it might be for you, but if it is, you're doing it all wrong,Jun 19 14:22
schestowitzSchmidt, Brin, Page try to keep important projects from "getting squashed" < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/18/google-starts-innovation-reviews >Jun 19 14:24
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oiaohmBesides using .doc is also slightly wrong.   Most long term stores don't need to be updated a lot.  Main reason they store in pdf and other long term standards.   Having to update the documents come with risks.Jun 19 14:25
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_Mutex_yes, thats right, its trivial and solved, and usually legally required to also be  hard copy,Jun 19 14:26
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/googleblogs/pdfs/google_nwong_testimony061809.pdfJun 19 14:27
*conley (n=conley@c-69-255-117-144.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 14:27
schestowitz Personal data exposed on website < http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/1/hi/business/8107737.stm >Jun 19 14:28
fewaschestowitz, omterestomgJun 19 14:28
fewaschestowitz, @bbc great news titleJun 19 14:29
oiaohmProblem is its trivial for you.   _Mutex_  its not what you call well known to a lot of people. Its not only tax and legal documents that can be key to a business.   _Mutex_Jun 19 14:29
oiaohmA deception by something being standard following when its not may not harm you _Mutex_.   But it can harm others.Jun 19 14:30
_Mutex_thats why responsible businesses hire people like yourself to do it for them, they also hire accountants, and so on,Jun 19 14:30
oiaohmThe also higher the IT fools who don't know better either.  _Mutex_Jun 19 14:32
schestowitzfewa: I don't get itJun 19 14:32
fewa"Personal data exposed on website"Jun 19 14:32
_Mutex_only once,Jun 19 14:32
fewa1. personal data is often exposed, but for legitimate reasonsJun 19 14:32
schestowitzWher's the..Jun 19 14:32
fewa2. it doesnt mention which siteJun 19 14:32
schestowitzYesJun 19 14:32
oiaohmBut once can be enough to put them out of business for a fair while _Mutex_Jun 19 14:32
schestowitzObviously not where it's intendedJun 19 14:33
schestowitzLet me red it.Jun 19 14:33
schestowitz*eadJun 19 14:33
schestowitz" those tracking deliveries on the Parcelforce"Jun 19 14:33
schestowitzyeah, that's what I read before.Jun 19 14:33
schestowitzBut those on the server side are the issueJun 19 14:33
schestowitzThey can sell data of celebsJun 19 14:33
fewavery poor title, should be "Parcelforce leaks personal data"Jun 19 14:33
schestowitzFor blackmail or smearsJun 19 14:33
fewabut then noone would read itJun 19 14:33
fewathats why they made  it vagueJun 19 14:34
schestowitzfewa: "computers at risk of Conficker"Jun 19 14:34
fewathat at least mentions the subjectJun 19 14:34
schestowitz"Pirates download under the submarine"Jun 19 14:34
fewalolJun 19 14:34
schestowitzBBC loves "pirates"Jun 19 14:34
schestowitzIt's the media companiesJun 19 14:34
fewaBBC <3 DRMJun 19 14:35
schestowitzThem versus the evil murderersJun 19 14:35
fewathe "theft"Jun 19 14:35
schestowitzYesJun 19 14:35
schestowitzI'm gonna steal me a copy ..Jun 19 14:35
fewasomeone neds to get an injunction on the MPAA for claiming that copyright infringement is :theft"Jun 19 14:35
fewaand "stealing"Jun 19 14:35
schestowitzCTRL+C=stealJun 19 14:35
schestowitzCTRL+V=piracyJun 19 14:35
fewaas the SCOTUS has already ruled on thatJun 19 14:35
fewahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_%281985%29Jun 19 14:36
fewaapparently the media doesnt keep track of their sourcesJun 19 14:36
schestowitzHere's the issueJun 19 14:36
schestowitzGlyn Moody put it to me like this:Jun 19 14:36
schestowitzThe media reports on the mediaJun 19 14:36
schestowitzRadio reports on RIAAJun 19 14:36
schestowitzSo they are in charge of propagandaJun 19 14:36
schestowitzIt would have been different say... if the newspapers cover Cragslist, which they hateJun 19 14:37
schestowitzSo they vilify itJun 19 14:37
fewabut making false legal threats is crime, is it not?Jun 19 14:37
schestowitzAssociate it with murder, prostitutes, all sorts of crimeJun 19 14:37
fewaknowingly false legal threatsJun 19 14:37
schestowitzLikewise those who share or distribute freely (CC)Jun 19 14:37
schestowitzProbably.Jun 19 14:37
EruaranI suddenly realised todayJun 19 14:37
schestowitzBut the judges are with the MAFIAAJun 19 14:38
schestowitzJust look at SwwwwwedenJun 19 14:38
Eruaranwe have a lot of ubuntu users nowJun 19 14:38
schestowitzYeah, well..Jun 19 14:38
fewaand claiming that copyright infringement is "theft" in a legal context, which is ruled false, needs to be barredJun 19 14:38
Eruaranand there's been a sudden surgeJun 19 14:38
schestowitzI saw this today: http://education.zdnet.com/?p=2709Jun 19 14:38
Eruaranin requests to have ubuntu installedJun 19 14:38
schestowitz"Ubuntu a minor player? Not outside the States"Jun 19 14:39
fewabecause its slanderJun 19 14:39
schestowitzIn the Unites States, the Unites States is the worldJun 19 14:39
schestowitzAnd Microsoft and Apple are 'the' companiesJun 19 14:39
Eruarankind of coincided with the latest wave of viruses and spyware afflicting usersJun 19 14:39
schestowitzTell this to Chine :-"Jun 19 14:39
schestowitz*CHinaJun 19 14:39
schestowitzNext time they actually BUY Windows or go to the Chinese Apple Store (??)Jun 19 14:39
EruaranI think we'll start to see companies switching soonJun 19 14:40
Eruaranwe have two clients who are looking to a permanent solution after being blacklisted by ISP's becuase they got spambots on their networksJun 19 14:40
schestowitzfewa: let's do an experiment and slam those who use the wrong termsJun 19 14:40
schestowitzMany people gave upJun 19 14:40
schestowitzThe misconceptions are all over the place, justifying one anotherJun 19 14:41
fewaperhaps you just have to continue the word-of-mouthJun 19 14:41
fewapeople do have an inherent trust of the mediaJun 19 14:41
fewaeven those that watch fox newsJun 19 14:41
fewa*mistrustJun 19 14:41
fewadamnJun 19 14:41
schestowitzEruaran: yeah, well... think about business productivity on the receiving end of  that spamJun 19 14:42
Eruaranword of mouth can be very powerfulJun 19 14:42
Eruaranschestowitz: yesJun 19 14:42
schestowitzMicrosoft Windows costs the Aussie economy many millions PER DAYJun 19 14:42
schestowitzBut Microsoft isn't held accountableJun 19 14:42
EruaranWe have one client that is nationalJun 19 14:42
Eruaranacross three statesJun 19 14:43
Eruarantheir entire enterprise could not sent outgoing emailJun 19 14:43
EruaranblacklistedJun 19 14:43
_Mutex_your joking,, many millions per day ,, :DJun 19 14:43
schestowitzBloody Windows: can't do something as simple as staying in the possession of the user before itJun 19 14:43
Eruaranthats costing themJun 19 14:43
Eruaranthey're closed for the weekendJun 19 14:43
schestowitzNSwareJun 19 14:43
schestowitzNSAwareJun 19 14:43
schestowitzMaybe we should rename WindowsJun 19 14:43
schestowitzLike Vista 7Jun 19 14:43
Eruaranbut monday we'll have people onsite cleaning up their networkJun 19 14:43
Eruaranand tryign to convince the ISP's to take them off their blacklistJun 19 14:44
schestowitz_Mutex_: indeedJun 19 14:44
_Mutex_link pleaseJun 19 14:44
schestowitzLost time, lost productivityJun 19 14:44
schestowitzCOnficker alone cost about $9 billionJun 19 14:44
schestowitzOld estimateJun 19 14:44
schestowitzProbably a lot more nowJun 19 14:44
Eruaranthis is a new oneJun 19 14:44
schestowitzLet MS pay $9 in compensation for incompetenceJun 19 14:44
schestowitzSee how long before they file CHapter 11Jun 19 14:44
EruaranI don't blame M$ this timeJun 19 14:45
EruaranI blame businesses for relying on shit software for their enterpriseJun 19 14:45
schestowitzWell..Jun 19 14:45
schestowitzThey follow the flockJun 19 14:45
EruaranI had a guy blaming usJun 19 14:45
schestowitzGovt needs to start changeJun 19 14:45
schestowitzODF, FOSS, standardsJun 19 14:45
schestowitzNo activeX sitesJun 19 14:45
EruaranI told him if he was serious about security he wouldn't be using WindowsJun 19 14:45
schestowitzAnd all that malarkeyJun 19 14:45
schestowitzBrazil cleaned up such messJun 19 14:46
EruaranBrazil are way ahead of usJun 19 14:46
EruaranI feel ashamed to be AustralianJun 19 14:46
schestowitz_Mutex_: you're here to troll. I'm /ignoring youJun 19 14:46
Eruaranbunch of backward luddites running their Windows XP networksJun 19 14:46
schestowitzSame in the UKJun 19 14:46
schestowitzBut it makes a good challenge Jun 19 14:46
fewaschestowitz, i ignore _Mutex_ tooJun 19 14:47
schestowitzIn Brazil it's a small victory to move a business to DebianJun 19 14:47
fewa* /ignoreJun 19 14:47
_Mutex_sorry for asking you to back up that incredable statement,, my badJun 19 14:47
schestowitzWow.Jun 19 14:47
schestowitzfewa: check this outJun 19 14:47
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_8108000/8108589.stmJun 19 14:47
schestowitzQuite diluted out of propaganda languageJun 19 14:48
schestowitzMaybe they tried hard.Jun 19 14:48
schestowitz"Huge fine in US file-sharing case"Jun 19 14:48
fewajuries need to learn their rights of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullificationJun 19 14:48
schestowitzOuch. They blew itJun 19 14:49
schestowitz3 paras from the endJun 19 14:49
fewa{{fact}}Jun 19 14:50
schestowitz"Online piracy has been blamed for a decline in music sales in recent years."Jun 19 14:50
EruaranWindows has been costing Australian business millions for yearsJun 19 14:50
Eruaranand years...Jun 19 14:51
EruaranIt has gotten to the point nowJun 19 14:51
EruaranThat if people haven't learnedJun 19 14:51
EruaranThen its on their own headsJun 19 14:51
fewahttp://www.hbs.edu/research/pdf/09-132.pdf Harvard Researchers conclude piracy not stifling content creationJun 19 14:51
fewa                                 The publication of new books roseJun 19 14:52
fewaby 66% over the 2002-2007 periodJun 19 14:52
fewaworldwide feature film production is up by more than 30%Jun 19 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I thought I had finally found an MSBBC piece without MAFIAA propaganda terms, but 3 paras from the end they fail ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/go ...Jun 19 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oops. Here is that last BBC link. ttp://news.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/-/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_8108000/8108589.Jun 19 14:52
_Mutex_do you have a like for the Aust Gov MS Spending please ?Jun 19 14:52
_Mutex_Link*Jun 19 14:52
EruaranAu Gov spending ?Jun 19 14:52
EruaranI don't have numbers on Gov spendingJun 19 14:53
_Mutex_the millions per dayJun 19 14:53
Eruaranthats Australian businessJun 19 14:53
_Mutex_ok, you have a link ??Jun 19 14:53
EruaranyesJun 19 14:53
oiaohm Microsoft Windows costs the Aussie economy many millions PER DAY  << Learn to read _Mutex_Jun 19 14:53
Eruaranheres one that goes all the way back to 2000Jun 19 14:54
Eruaranhttp://www.itnews.com.au/News/11129,worms-cost-business-millions-a-day.aspxJun 19 14:54
_Mutex_is that a link ??Jun 19 14:54
oiaohmWhere does that say goverment spending _Mutex_Jun 19 14:54
_Mutex_thankyouJun 19 14:54
EruaranIts worse todayJun 19 14:54
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.132.177.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 14:54
schestowitzEruaran: _Mutex_ is here to play channel cop. He's a troll.Jun 19 14:56
Eruaranah kJun 19 14:56
_Mutex_if it was "millions per day" would it not be 365 x "millions per day" per year, but no, your talking about a one off, and really it would be no where near $40 mil, and do you Australia's daily share turnover on average ?Jun 19 14:56
EruarandudeJun 19 14:56
_Mutex_Yea, Sorry roy, your right I do deal in facts.Jun 19 14:56
EruaranIts much worse in 2009Jun 19 14:56
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/comes-3096.pdf  <------ I'd be glad if you did. It needs to become common knowledge like Ballmer's "Linux is a cancer" or the monkey dance. It would change people's perspective a great deal.Jun 19 14:57
_Mutex_and ofcourse you link me 9 year old data,Jun 19 14:57
popeyschestowitz: broken url in your tweet againJun 19 14:57
popeyhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_8108000/8108589.stm is probably what you wantedJun 19 14:58
schestowitzpopey: yesJun 19 14:58
schestowitzI posted a second TwitJun 19 14:58
schestowitzWith the full URLJun 19 14:58
popeynopeJun 19 14:58
popeysecond one cut offJun 19 14:58
popeywell, cut off hereJun 19 14:58
EruaranI said it was from years ago...Jun 19 14:58
schestowitzI almost thought the BBC...Jun 19 14:58
schestowitzOhJun 19 14:58
ThistleWebhere's a thought on the "better with Windows" slogan. For something to be better than something else, it needs something to be compared with, so Microsoft are letting peeps know more than Windows existsJun 19 14:58
EruaranAre you not reading ?Jun 19 14:58
ThistleWebeven if they do try to tell ya it's better with WindowsJun 19 14:58
schestowitzOhJun 19 14:58
EruaranTodays numbers dwarf numbers from 2000Jun 19 14:58
schestowitzThis is weirdJun 19 14:58
EruaranYou want something more recent ?Jun 19 14:59
oiaohmIt also does not help that stupid things are happening like IE refusing browse anywhere because google toolbar is installed.Jun 19 14:59
EruaranOkJun 19 14:59
Eruaranhttp://smallbusiness.smh.com.au/starting/technology/computer-crime-costs-$600m-616208694.htmlJun 19 14:59
fewaThistleWeb, its like how microosft says OOXML is "better"Jun 19 14:59
_Mutex_Eriaran, im not anymore, at least not almost  10 years old.Jun 19 14:59
fewabut they make it completely unclear wether they are comparing to ODF or doc so they can always BS with somethingJun 19 15:00
EruaranSo, when the link is from 2009 you'll just conveniently ignore it... okJun 19 15:00
schestowitzThe cost is not acuisitionJun 19 15:00
schestowitzIt's TCOJun 19 15:00
ThistleWebfewa: you're missing the point here, they spend a LOT of time and effort making sure the customer knows NO alternative to WindowsJun 19 15:00
fewaThistleWeb, trueJun 19 15:01
ThistleWebthen use a slogan which tells them there IS oneJun 19 15:01
schestowitzAnd Microsoft is a menaceJun 19 15:01
schestowitzThe cost of downtime, viruses, spam being received from botnets and reducing productivity, landing viruses etc.Jun 19 15:01
_Mutex_and im sure insurance fraud, and bank robbery, and motor accidents from speeding also cost alot, so the criminals are costing money, not the products they use or brake into.Jun 19 15:01
schestowitzThat alone costs millions per dayJun 19 15:01
EruaranThe cost of using Windows to Australian business is very expensive indeedJun 19 15:01
schestowitzThere are studies on the matterJun 19 15:01
schestowitzHow much time is spent on distracvtionJun 19 15:01
schestowitzScientists studies how much time people spend on E-mail for exampleJun 19 15:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oops. Here is that last BBC link. http://ping.fm/biDudJun 19 15:02
schestowitzSo you might find that an averga person wastes a total of 1 hour per week on spamJun 19 15:02
schestowitzBecause the attention span has a cost tooJun 19 15:02
EruaranThe cost of licenses, the cost of security software, the cost of cleaning up the mess when security is compromised, the cost of paying people to fixt the problems...Jun 19 15:02
schestowitzThat would be how much if you multiply by # of workers?Jun 19 15:02
EruaranBut if you want to stick your head in the sandJun 19 15:03
EruaranBe my guestJun 19 15:03
schestowitzThe level of spam is about 150,000,0000,000 per dayJun 19 15:03
EruaranIts very expensive sandJun 19 15:03
_Mutex_im sure its no where near the cost of office space, insurance, wages, company cars, super ... and so on.Jun 19 15:03
ThistleWebanother thing about the Microsoft endorsement of "...... recommends Windows". Compaies like to trademark slogans all the time, so anyone using it in conjunction with M$ products are either infringing on M$'s "IP", or have been told to use it by M$. They won't pay a fee to use a slogan when their own marketing peeps could devise one themselevesJun 19 15:03
schestowitzThey must do itJun 19 15:04
schestowitzNo discount, no mrginsJun 19 15:04
schestowitzIf Dell does not "recommend" Vista, then MS will use HP to eliminate themJun 19 15:04
schestowitzThey did the same game with Intel and AMDJun 19 15:04
EruaranLets put it this wayJun 19 15:04
schestowitzSee the ECIS documentJun 19 15:04
EruaranWhat were getting paid to clean up after MicrosoftJun 19 15:05
schestowitzMicrosoft uses its monopoly to blackmail OEMs and chipmakersJun 19 15:05
schestowitzAnd that's borderline criminalJun 19 15:05
EruaranIt pays the rent... and wages..Jun 19 15:05
schestowitzThe EU intervenedJun 19 15:05
schestowitzAnd MS continues to do the same thingsJun 19 15:05
EruaranAnd the fuel billsJun 19 15:05
schestowitzWith ASUS for exampleJun 19 15:05
schestowitzThey tied them up to block LinuxJun 19 15:05
ThistleWebif every retailer puts the same slogan on, they're all infringing on Microsoft's IP, or they all have a s8imultanious brainfart and arrive at the same slogan and M$ lawyers aint noticed the mass infrinegemntJun 19 15:05
schestowitzAnd the EU 'forgot' the investigate that oneJun 19 15:05
schestowitzLast week I read in two places that the EU studied how Microsoft extorted OEMSJun 19 15:06
schestowitzAnd MS punished them if they speak about blacmmailJun 19 15:06
oiaohm_Mutex_: computer crime is growth industiry.   Its one of the fastest growing sections of crime.   Reason lower risk than most of the others.Jun 19 15:06
schestowitzSo they must be kind to MS in publicJun 19 15:06
schestowitzOtherwise the secret prices will flunctuateJun 19 15:06
_Mutex_and PC's and RAM, and HDrives, and chairs, and operating system, and wordprocessors, they are what you call tools of the trade. They allow you to do things,  if they do you keep them, if they dont you replace them.Jun 19 15:06
schestowitzAnd MS will 'punish' themJun 19 15:06
_Mutex_its simpleJun 19 15:06
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ThistleWebschestowitz: in fairness to the EU, they only have a limited time and resources to go after such a large scale repeat offender, they have to pick and choose where they investigate Microsoft or their courts would be tied down for decadesJun 19 15:06
schestowitzI knowJun 19 15:07
ThistleWebunfortunately, Microsoft know thisJun 19 15:07
schestowitzI'm complaining about them soonJun 19 15:07
schestowitzBecause they harbour lobbyistsJun 19 15:07
_Mutex_yes, they have a right to defend themselves,Jun 19 15:07
oiaohmEU is also really good at Fining MS and using that money to fund the resources.Jun 19 15:07
Eruaranthey have to pick something that sticksJun 19 15:07
ThistleWebso perhaps the fines should reflect that, with MASSIVE fines to counter the fact that they'll only be investigated on a fraction of their deedsJun 19 15:07
_Mutex_as does everyoneJun 19 15:07
EruaranIts like going after Al CaponeJun 19 15:07
EruaranYou don't go after sexy chargesJun 19 15:08
EruaranYou go for what sticksJun 19 15:08
EruaranThey got Capone on mail fraudJun 19 15:08
EruarandullJun 19 15:08
Eruaranbut it put him in jailJun 19 15:08
_Mutex_I thought it was tax evasionJun 19 15:09
Eruaranor maybe thatJun 19 15:09
EruaranI don't remember nowJun 19 15:09
oiaohmTax evasion was CaponeJun 19 15:10
fewaThistleWeb, there is plenty of restorative, and tort, justice that can be served before we even have to begin on the punative damagesJun 19 15:10
oiaohmOut of all the crimes he was doing Tax was the simplest to prove.Jun 19 15:10
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fewaNot that they dont deserve punative damages for their wonton willfull anti-competitive action, and violations of judgementsJun 19 15:11
_Mutex_software is very darwinian, in that if you become too specialised extinction can occur much easier, and what is more successfull become the dominant species, it's always a big risk to be too specialised,Jun 19 15:15
twitter"It's Better with Windows" will quickly turn into "It's Broken with Windows"Jun 19 15:16
twitterThere's a simple saying that's always true, "GNU/Linux turns trash into a new computer.  Windows turns a new computer into trash."Jun 19 15:16
twittergotta go, bbl.Jun 19 15:16
fewavery trueJun 19 15:16
_Hicham_openSUSE turns a trash to a new computerJun 19 15:17
twitterthe more free your software, the better you compute will run HichamJun 19 15:18
twitterI thought I had you ignored though.  have to fix that.Jun 19 15:18
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schestowitz_Hicham_: you cross over and into the Dark Side :-)Jun 19 15:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft executive quits the company. http://ping.fm/wRjuLJun 19 15:22
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_Hicham_schestowitz : openSUSE is the dark side?Jun 19 15:24
schestowitz_Hicham_: it is close to itJun 19 15:26
_Hicham_schestowitz : officially it isn'tJun 19 15:27
schestowitz_Hicham_: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/gnuwars.jpgJun 19 15:27
_Hicham_if its board can be more independant ( like Fedora board ), a lot of things can happenJun 19 15:27
_Hicham_schestowitz : great imageJun 19 15:28
_Hicham_I like itJun 19 15:28
schestowitzSubsonica made itJun 19 15:29
_Hicham_it is a community projectJun 19 15:29
_Hicham_so basically, the community can influence itJun 19 15:29
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/09/microsoft-novell-and-miguel/Jun 19 15:29
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/21/mono-and-moonlight-bait/Jun 19 15:29
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/13/novell-foss-bridges/Jun 19 15:30
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/06/novell-mono-vs-gnu-linux/Jun 19 15:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SourceForge appointed the former World Wrestling Entertainment COO to its board of directors. http://ping.fm/6BMSRJun 19 15:32
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am thinking of creating a mononono for openSUSEJun 19 15:32
_Hicham_and upload it to the build serviceJun 19 15:32
schestowitzHeheJun 19 15:32
schestowitzNovell might reject it :-)Jun 19 15:32
_Hicham_why?Jun 19 15:32
schestowitz[I don't think they would]Jun 19 15:32
_Hicham_they didn't reject gnoteJun 19 15:33
schestowitzIt's more of a jokeJun 19 15:33
schestowitzSUSE's goal is to perpetuateJun 19 15:33
schestowitzSUSE's goal is to perpetuate MonoJun 19 15:33
_Hicham_gnote is in the build serviceJun 19 15:33
schestowitzIt's Novell's crown jewel (Ximian junk)Jun 19 15:33
schestowitzAnd they have exclusivity for it... from Microsoft.Jun 19 15:33
schestowitzGnote is developed by a former NovellerJun 19 15:33
_Hicham_I knowJun 19 15:34
_Hicham_I don't have mono on openSUSEJun 19 15:34
_Hicham_it is easy to removeJun 19 15:34
_Hicham_openSUSE includes mono like any other distroJun 19 15:35
_Hicham_Fedora includes monoJun 19 15:35
_Hicham_Mandriva includes MonoJun 19 15:36
_Hicham_Ubuntu includes MonoJun 19 15:36
_Hicham_they have almost the same set of applications on their Live CDJun 19 15:36
schestowitzBut you give people the impression you chose MonoJun 19 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DWP: 20m wait, 2m interview. I'm paid till Aug 24 so still count as employed until then. Paperwork was right though!Jun 19 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why charging for non-Free(non-libre) software becomes increasingly hard: http://ping.fm/0lVhTJun 19 15:37
schestowitzJust as buying a PC with Windows gives that impression even if you wipe the HDDJun 19 15:37
_Hicham_schestowitz : so everyone gives the impression of using MonoJun 19 15:37
_Hicham_?Jun 19 15:37
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_Hicham_Ubuntu is the most popularJun 19 15:38
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_Hicham_followed by openSUSE, Mandriva and Fedora, according to distrowatchJun 19 15:38
schestowitz_Hicham_: not BLAG or FedoraJun 19 15:38
_Hicham_Fedora ships mono on the live CDJun 19 15:38
_Hicham_maybe Fedora 12 will not have monoJun 19 15:39
_Hicham_it is a general issueJun 19 15:39
_Hicham_all vendors are competing for the marketJun 19 15:39
_Hicham_RHEL is the only distro which is Mono-freeJun 19 15:39
_Hicham_and RedHat can't include it because of patents issuesJun 19 15:40
_Hicham_and they are having problemsJun 19 15:40
_Hicham_because SLED/SLES offers more interop than RHEL in that regardJun 19 15:40
_Hicham_so RedHat might also make a moveJun 19 15:41
schestowitzNot reallyJun 19 15:41
schestowitzIn the opposite directionJun 19 15:41
schestowitzLESS monoJun 19 15:41
schestowitzI.e. F edoraJun 19 15:41
schestowitzAnd the Interop thing is perceptualJun 19 15:41
schestowitzThat's BSJun 19 15:41
schestowitzAnd you repeat the BSJun 19 15:41
schestowitzAD is maybe  anew featureJun 19 15:42
_Hicham_Fedora is not an enterprise productJun 19 15:42
schestowitzRed Hat EL has the restJun 19 15:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz http://yvoschaap.com/ie8/Jun 19 15:42
schestowitz"Enterprise.."Jun 19 15:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OT: Man dressed as dead mother to scam $1m < http://ping.fm/qerqp >Jun 19 15:42
schestowitzIt hardly means muchJun 19 15:42
_Hicham_schestowitz : it means moneyJun 19 15:42
schestowitzBoycott Novell Enterprise SP2 Ultimate SupraJun 19 15:42
schestowitzNo, enterprise means something elseJun 19 15:42
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EnterpriseJun 19 15:43
_Hicham_what does enterprise mean?Jun 19 15:43
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_EnterpriseJun 19 15:43
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_EnterpriseJun 19 15:43
schestowitzRed Hat Linux Starship EnterpriseJun 19 15:43
schestowitzCaptain KinlandJun 19 15:43
schestowitzJohn Oates uses MAFIAA language in the Reg, just like Orlowski: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/18/sweden_ip_law/Jun 19 15:45
_Hicham_schestowitz : Mono is Novell onlyJun 19 15:45
_Hicham_it is patents protectedJun 19 15:45
ThistleWebEnterprise is just another buzz word to appeal to suits who think that version of an app is much better than the normal oneJun 19 15:45
schestowitzMono is dreJun 19 15:45
schestowitzDrek. Start DrekJun 19 15:45
ThistleWebalong with "pro"Jun 19 15:45
schestowitzSo it hardly mattersJun 19 15:45
_Hicham_enterprise products are more testedJun 19 15:45
_Hicham_that is the differenceJun 19 15:45
_Hicham_so they are less likely to contain bugsJun 19 15:46
_Hicham_+ supportJun 19 15:46
_Hicham_it is nice to have supportJun 19 15:46
schestowitzSUSE Linux Start Drek Enterprise ServerJun 19 15:46
schestowitz*StarJun 19 15:46
_Hicham_schestowitz : what is Mono is completely patents free?Jun 19 15:47
_Hicham_would that matter?Jun 19 15:47
schestowitzMono is bad for LinuxJun 19 15:47
schestowitzIt makes Microsoft a leaderJun 19 15:47
_Hicham_not a leaderJun 19 15:47
_Mutex_its not mono, its MSJun 19 15:47
_Hicham_just another technology in the marketJun 19 15:48
_Mutex_yes, it isJun 19 15:48
_Hicham_we have java in Linux, so Sun is a leader?Jun 19 15:48
_Hicham_come onJun 19 15:48
_Mutex_you also have C in linux so is K&R leaders ?Jun 19 15:49
_Hicham_Wine might have more patents issues than MonoJun 19 15:49
ThistleWebI wonder if they thought through naming an app after a kissing disease, considering Microsoft's business practicesJun 19 15:49
ThistleWeblet M$ get close enough to give you some love and you're infectedJun 19 15:49
_Hicham_Gnome is planning on using ValaJun 19 15:50
_Hicham_a C# like languageJun 19 15:50
fewahttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6oUz1v17UoJun 19 15:50
_Hicham_so we shouldn't use MS technologies?Jun 19 15:50
_Hicham_why MS uses GNU techs then?Jun 19 15:51
_Hicham_why not profits from them?Jun 19 15:51
fewa_Hicham_, thats almost an oxymoronJun 19 15:51
_Mutex_you should not use MS technologies if you dont want too, otherwise, use what works for you.Jun 19 15:51
_Mutex_thats what I do.Jun 19 15:51
_Mutex_much to many here's shargrinJun 19 15:52
fewaMS technologiesJun 19 15:52
ThistleWebMicrosoft rely on "covenants not to sue" or "agreements of understanding", they can change those terms at any time and pull your company down to it's knees if it's buried too deep in M$ dependant techJun 19 15:52
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fewa^^^Jun 19 15:53
ThistleWebthe more they lose money (or fail to make it at the rates they like) they will start to go back on these agreements, and shake down other "IP infringers"Jun 19 15:53
ThistleWebit'll become a revenue stream for themJun 19 15:53
_Mutex_then you dont use them, but you as an individual wont be affected, just as the users of TOMTOM GPS's are not by having FAT in it.Jun 19 15:53
_Mutex_it just does not make any sense, outside of forums like this one.Jun 19 15:54
ThistleWebthe more you use mono, the more you're gluing your fate to the nice people at Microsoft acting with some honourJun 19 15:54
_Hicham_fewa : not using MS technologies, implementing them on LinuxJun 19 15:54
_Hicham_I am not talking about spreading MonoJun 19 15:54
ThistleWebTomToms users could be affected, say if the price demanded by Microsoft was enough to send the company bankruptJun 19 15:55
ThistleWebor force them to hike prices to their users to recover the payments to MicrosoftJun 19 15:55
ThistleWebforce them to delay upgrade plansJun 19 15:55
ThistleWebeverything has a knock onJun 19 15:56
fewadictate the way other companies do businessJun 19 15:56
_Mutex_no they are not affected by the patent, they are affected by the manufactureer of their product being busted for illegal practices.Jun 19 15:56
schestowitz"MS technologies"?Jun 19 15:56
schestowitzIt's just s/wJun 19 15:56
schestowitzDon't make it seem like a deviceJun 19 15:56
_Mutex_only person to blame for that is TOMTOM.Jun 19 15:56
schestowitzIt's APIs/specsJun 19 15:56
schestowitzThat's propaganda that they use to make s/w patentsJun 19 15:56
ThistleWebschestowitz: not to be confused with SpecsaversJun 19 15:56
fewathats what i was critisingJun 19 15:56
schestowitz"Our innovative technology"Jun 19 15:56
_Mutex_software is  technology after all.Jun 19 15:56
schestowitzfewa: nice "technology" there in YouTubeJun 19 15:57
fewa"the tech we copied from UNIX"Jun 19 15:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] According to some report, Microsoft is losing hope in that annual 'Google killer' attempt.Jun 19 15:57
schestowitzThat musical technologyJun 19 15:57
schestowitzThey should patents that beat techJun 19 15:57
schestowitz*patentJun 19 15:57
schestowitzSo that people don't 'steal' their 'idea'Jun 19 15:57
_Mutex_who copied from UNIX ???  (apart from Linux ?)Jun 19 15:57
_Hicham_schestowitz : what if Mono Licence is 100% GPL and non risky?Jun 19 15:57
_Mutex_Hicham, it isJun 19 15:58
fewa_Hicham_, its notJun 19 15:58
fewa_Hicham_, it is riskyJun 19 15:58
_Hicham_so all major vendors didn't see that risk?Jun 19 15:58
_Mutex_Ive got the license right here, the very one you have to click the check box for its GPLv2 and thats IT..Jun 19 15:58
_Hicham_Debian? Ubuntu ? Fedora ?Jun 19 15:59
_Hicham_no one seen that risk?Jun 19 15:59
_Mutex_you know the same GPLv2 that is the linux kernel.Jun 19 15:59
ThistleWebfor me, mono is dubious. You have to look at the mother company (in this case Microsoft) and judge their intentions, which leave a LOT to be desiredJun 19 15:59
_Hicham_if we have the right license, MS can't do anythingJun 19 15:59
_Hicham_as long as we are doing things legallyJun 19 16:00
_Mutex_so if you dont like the company, thats enough for you, thats a huge risk for anyone that might be thinking about adopting Open Source as a modelJun 19 16:00
fewa_Hicham_, Microsoft doesnt realease anythingJun 19 16:00
schestowitzNASA unleashes Moon-attack probe http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/moon_mission_launch/Jun 19 16:00
ThistleWebeven if Microsoft publicly stated it's alright, it's only alright until they update their websiteJun 19 16:00
fewa_Mutex_, everything is release throught their proxy novellJun 19 16:00
_Mutex_what if someone does not like you,, even if you play by FOSS's rules ?Jun 19 16:00
_Mutex_So ?Jun 19 16:00
_Hicham_I have nothing to doJun 19 16:01
_Hicham_I will do my jobJun 19 16:01
ThistleWeb.net make it easy to hook into Windows only featuresJun 19 16:01
ThistleWebgradually mono and .net will get further apartJun 19 16:01
schestowitzOr WindowsJun 19 16:01
ThistleWebit's always gonna play catchupJun 19 16:01
_Hicham_Mono will not succeedJun 19 16:02
schestowitzNot just Windows-tied s/wJun 19 16:02
schestowitzLike VSJun 19 16:02
_Hicham_it is like OpenJDKJun 19 16:02
schestowitzAnd it's already happeningJun 19 16:02
ThistleWebsome things it wont be able to implement because they are propritary M$ functions inside WindowsJun 19 16:02
schestowitzSo it's not speculationJun 19 16:02
schestowitzMonoDevelop has Windows-only featuresJun 19 16:02
ThistleWebor not legally anywayJun 19 16:02
_Hicham_always chasing the proprietary standardJun 19 16:02
_Hicham_so for me, I will never develop in Java or .NetJun 19 16:02
ThistleWebmono is a trojan horseJun 19 16:02
_Hicham_just C,C++ and PythonJun 19 16:02
schestowitzThistleWeb: no, mono is monkeyJun 19 16:03
ThistleWeblolJun 19 16:03
ThistleWebit's also a kissing deseaseJun 19 16:03
_Hicham_Novell will get tired sooner or laterJun 19 16:03
schestowitzmononucleosisJun 19 16:03
ThistleWebyepJun 19 16:03
schestowitzAlso in Spanish?Jun 19 16:03
_Hicham_and Mono will die by itselfJun 19 16:03
ThistleWebquite apt considering how Microsoft do buisnessJun 19 16:03
_Hicham_coz they can't follow .NET developmentJun 19 16:04
_Mutex_gee how many words start with "mono" good argument LOLJun 19 16:04
ThistleWebwhile there is money / control to be gained, the agenda will always be pushedJun 19 16:04
_Hicham_good for themJun 19 16:04
schestowitzChe Guevara's granddaughter poses for PETA < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/lydia_guevara/ > Haha.Jun 19 16:04
_Hicham_schestowitz : by the next month, mononono-0.1-0.0.noarch.rpm will be in openSUSE Build ServiceJun 19 16:06
schestowitzGreat!Jun 19 16:06
schestowitzWhen you can recommend itJun 19 16:06
neighborleeI wasn't all that pleased by some mocking the reaction of peta to obama's  fly swatting episode..call 'us' queer for reacting so, but I wasn't impressed by his zeal of his pinpoint accuracy and zealous emotional outburst at his preys death...Jun 19 16:06
_Hicham_schestowitz : when I finish some stuff to doJun 19 16:06
neighborlee_Hicham_, go you ;)Jun 19 16:07
schestowitzneighborlee: any video?Jun 19 16:07
neighborlee_Hicham_, need one for mandriva etc.ec.Jun 19 16:07
schestowitzI missed thatJun 19 16:07
schestowitz_Hicham_ is a volunteer packager for Novell nowJun 19 16:07
neighborleehehe its very popular but I can try to find..I saw it originally and then it aired on msnbcJun 19 16:07
schestowitzTurncoat _Hicham_ Jun 19 16:07
schestowitzComes into SUSE just to plant mononono in itJun 19 16:08
schestowitzUndercover jerk !! :-)Jun 19 16:08
neighborleelolJun 19 16:08
neighborleehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxcRQ72TM0I < LOLJun 19 16:09
_Mutex_and to think ive got nothing better to do that to watch someone swat a fly :DJun 19 16:10
neighborlee_Mutex_, well it does kinda help make a point...about when some people glorify their cause with colorful words ;)Jun 19 16:11
_Hicham_schestowitz : ok, I am gonna write the spec file right nowJun 19 16:11
fewaMono is identical to the old Microsoft UNIX win32 implamentationJun 19 16:14
fewathat they purposefully brokeJun 19 16:14
fewasame damn thingJun 19 16:14
schestowitzneighborlee: hehe. *WHACK* Nice!Jun 19 16:15
neighborleelolJun 19 16:15
schestowitzAt least he didn't put it in his mouthJun 19 16:15
schestowitz Gordon Brown Picks His Nose Eats Bogies < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwgTvM1DtQo  >Jun 19 16:16
schestowitzGerman parliament passes Internet censorship bill  < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1356941/german-parliament-passes-internet-censorship >Jun 19 16:23
neighborleeschestowitz, http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/37436#comment-10749 < hey the nymshifter is having more fun this is outrageously funny ,,'eet' :)Jun 19 16:24
neighborlee"  But about Mono they have heard rumours and evil-minded conspiracy theories by its haters. "Jun 19 16:24
neighborleeohhhh  we're all EVVVVVVVVVIIIIIIIIIILJun 19 16:24
neighborleehahahahJun 19 16:24
schestowitzHahaJun 19 16:24
schestowitzThe only evil one uses words like "shit"Jun 19 16:24
schestowitzShill attack: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/19/rumours-about-novell/#commentsJun 19 16:25
schestowitzI must have hit the spotJun 19 16:25
neighborleebetter warn president obama..maybe his fly swapping abilities can harness fullpower and SWAT US!, and SAVE HUMANITYJun 19 16:25
schestowitzHe'll vacate iraq to fight fliesJun 19 16:30
schestowitzGet 'em in the air force ready to kick some fly BUTT!Jun 19 16:30
schestowitzObama: "And All the Gals Say I'm Pretty Fly (For A White Guy)" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkNX_sLPZSs Jun 19 16:31
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schestowitzMoe KDE progress.. http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/06/some-quickies.htmlJun 19 16:36
_Hicham_schestowitz : can u help?Jun 19 16:38
schestowitzVirtualBox 3.0 beta brings gaming features < http://www.stefanoforenza.com/virtualbox-30-beta-brings-gaming-features/ >Jun 19 16:39
schestowitz_Hicham_: KDE?Jun 19 16:39
schestowitzI liked KDE4Jun 19 16:39
schestowitzI didn't manage to see what people don't like about itJun 19 16:39
_Hicham_schestowitz : writing a README file for the package monononoJun 19 16:39
ThistleWebbblJun 19 16:39
schestowitzSurfed some Groklaw in Konqueror, printed some booksJun 19 16:39
_Hicham_can write a good README file?Jun 19 16:39
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schestowitzOkular is niceJun 19 16:39
_Hicham_can u?Jun 19 16:40
schestowitzDolphin worked as expectedJun 19 16:40
_Hicham_I am collecting the conflictsJun 19 16:40
schestowitz_Hicham_: sure.Jun 19 16:40
schestowitzWe can work on this together in the WikiJun 19 16:40
schestowitzBut I don't know the packageJun 19 16:40
fewaschestowitz, http://lwn.net/Articles/335415/Jun 19 16:40
_Hicham_the package will work on all major rpm distrosJun 19 16:40
fewais interestingJun 19 16:40
fewa@okularJun 19 16:40
_Hicham_I am collecting conflicts from openSUSEJun 19 16:41
schestowitzOh, I think Aaron blogged about itJun 19 16:41
schestowitzThey make an option for DRMJun 19 16:41
schestowitzGO-OOXML just removed the DRM code from OOoJun 19 16:41
fewaits a good discussionJun 19 16:41
schestowitz"Okular developer Pino Toscano justifies the copy-restriction antifeature by saying that it's part of the PDF format specification."Jun 19 16:41
schestowitzThey say antifeatureJun 19 16:41
schestowitzCoined by FSFJun 19 16:41
fewaanti-features is a real problemJun 19 16:42
schestowitz_Hicham_: let's edit it in the WikiJun 19 16:42
fewaits a paradigm that is criticalJun 19 16:42
schestowitzSo we can both edit and refineJun 19 16:42
fewamakes people realize that the companies are not in their interestJun 19 16:42
_Hicham_schestowitz : give me the linkJun 19 16:42
_Hicham_I am collecting conflictsJun 19 16:42
fewaas they spend time trying to make their customers get less, rather than moreJun 19 16:43
schestowitz_Hicham_: http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/MonononoJun 19 16:45
schestowitzPut anything you have in there. Actually, let me organise the Wiki for a bit.Jun 19 16:45
schestowitzfewa: yes, indeedJun 19 16:45
schestowitzTODO list: Jun 19 16:45
schestowitz- block userJun 19 16:46
schestowitz- send company user dataJun 19 16:46
schestowitz- make popup with v1agra offerJun 19 16:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Canonical shuts down Ubuntu Satanic store < http://ping.fm/5ATKB >Jun 19 16:47
*wispygalaxy (i=misty@c-98-221-217-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 16:55
wispygalaxyhi everyone!Jun 19 16:55
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving.")Jun 19 16:55
wispygalaxyanyone here??Jun 19 16:56
neighborleewispygalaxy, hi thereJun 19 16:56
wispygalaxyhey neighborlee :)Jun 19 16:56
wispygalaxyis roy around?Jun 19 16:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Run Yellow Dog Linux on your PS3: http://digg.com/d1uIdJ?tJun 19 16:57
neighborleewispygalaxy, not sure you can askJun 19 17:01
neighborleehmm E17..very niceJun 19 17:01
wispygalaxyenlightenment is coolJun 19 17:01
wispygalaxyi've been away for a while, been busy offlineJun 19 17:02
neighborleeit sure is..its a amazing desktop..ive used E17 in fedora and it was very nice  I thoughtJun 19 17:02
neighborleeneeds some fine tunning here and there..but overall its very approachableJun 19 17:02
wispygalaxyi'm using KDE now, but i would like to test out eliveJun 19 17:03
neighborleewispygalaxy, ah ok ...yeah I know how that goes.Jun 19 17:03
wispygalaxybefore KDE, i had gnomeJun 19 17:03
neighborleeI think most of us haveJun 19 17:03
*Received a CTCP PING 1245428418 from wispygalaxyJun 19 17:03
wispygalaxyof course :)Jun 19 17:03
neighborlee:)Jun 19 17:03
wispygalaxyi used it with ubuntuJun 19 17:03
neighborleedittoJun 19 17:03
wispygalaxyneat!Jun 19 17:04
wispygalaxybut now im on debianJun 19 17:04
wispygalaxyit's a good learning experienceJun 19 17:04
neighborleeinstalling debian you mean ?Jun 19 17:04
wispygalaxyand using itJun 19 17:04
neighborleeah okJun 19 17:04
neighborleegentoo is learning on steroids LOLJun 19 17:04
neighborleewell next to LFS <ha>Jun 19 17:04
wispygalaxy:)Jun 19 17:05
wispygalaxymaybe one day i'll get around to installing gentoo successfullyJun 19 17:05
neighborleeEEKJun 19 17:05
neighborleeblasphemy!!Jun 19 17:05
neighborlee:))Jun 19 17:05
wispygalaxyoops :PJun 19 17:06
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.132.177.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 17:06
neighborleegrinsJun 19 17:06
neighborleewispygalaxy, I did  a week'ish ago or soJun 19 17:06
neighborleenever again most likelyJun 19 17:06
wispygalaxycool, how did it go?Jun 19 17:06
neighborleewell never say never BUT.it was abit aggrivatingJun 19 17:06
wispygalaxyohhhh :(Jun 19 17:06
schestowitzHey, wispygalaxy Jun 19 17:07
wispygalaxyhi roy!  :DJun 19 17:07
wispygalaxyhow are you today?Jun 19 17:07
neighborlee2 monitors would help..OR print out entire docs first..or something ;)Jun 19 17:07
wispygalaxyoh yeah  hahaJun 19 17:07
ThistleWebI wonder what Microsoft would do legally if a major EU govt changed all it's sites to detect browsers / OS and triggered a "this is an unsupported operating system and browser, please switch to a standards compliant alternative" when it detected Windows and IEJun 19 17:07
schestowitzI'm fine, thanks. And you?Jun 19 17:07
schestowitzI was just doing some COmes DocsJun 19 17:07
schestowitzI could use some helpJun 19 17:07
wispygalaxygreat!  it's my little sister's first day of summer vacationJun 19 17:07
neighborleewispygalaxy, screen'ing between docs and install was funny if not slightly frustrating LOL ;)Jun 19 17:08
wispygalaxyshe's watching a movie with my other sister nowJun 19 17:08
neighborleebut anywayJun 19 17:08
ThistleWebthey'd be pissed, but would they dare open a can of worms knowing they've been doing that for years?Jun 19 17:08
wispygalaxyhaha neighborlee, i'd print it out too!Jun 19 17:08
ThistleWeb"hey, we know you folks at Microsoft like to be trend setters, thanks for the idea"Jun 19 17:08
neighborleewispygalaxy, lolJun 19 17:08
wispygalaxy:)Jun 19 17:08
neighborleeThistleWeb, LOLJun 19 17:09
ThistleWebI'd love to hear them build a case without using the Nixon "it's legal if the President does it" lineJun 19 17:10
neighborleelolJun 19 17:10
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ThistleWebgive the judge a while list of links to click on in Firefox, and in IE to see the differenceJun 19 17:12
ThistleWebpretty soon he'll be able to memorise the wordsJun 19 17:13
ThistleWeball while Microsoft's lawyers stand looking crestfallenJun 19 17:13
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 19 17:13
ThistleWebtrying to convince the judge that the links are not rellevantJun 19 17:13
ThistleWebonly a new beach house isJun 19 17:13
ThistleWebsomplete with on-suite enemaJun 19 17:13
ThistleWeb"who us your honour? my clients would never stoop so low as to.......uhm.....what are you doing your honour?, clicking links can be dang......uhm......your honour?"Jun 19 17:14
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schestowitzfewa: are you good at Wiki formatting?Jun 19 17:27
fewaschestowitz, what kind?Jun 19 17:27
schestowitzI could use help on this page I'm setting up: http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Bill_GatesJun 19 17:27
schestowitzit looks rubbishJun 19 17:27
*DaemonXP (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 17:29
fewagod damnJun 19 17:30
fewatemplates on wikipedia are so intertwinedJun 19 17:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] ARM going dual core for Linux netbooks and smartbooks !!!: http://digg.com/d1uIo0?tJun 19 17:32
Eruaranoh lookJun 19 17:32
EruaranJohn Lennon smileyJun 19 17:32
Eruaran((ºJº))Jun 19 17:32
schestowitzfewa: thanksJun 19 17:33
schestowitzI don't know how to use templateJun 19 17:33
schestowitzBut many others soJun 19 17:34
fewaits really uglyJun 19 17:34
schestowitzSomeone has been adding categories this wayJun 19 17:34
DaemonXPI agree with Wikipedia thoughJun 19 17:34
fewaDaemonXP, ?Jun 19 17:34
DaemonXPDale Stewart is the most badass badassbass guitarist with a smokin' hot girlfriend everJun 19 17:34
DaemonXPand that's a factJun 19 17:35
DaemonXP:DJun 19 17:35
schestowitzfewa: nice!Jun 19 17:35
DaemonXPWikipedia is _never_wrongJun 19 17:35
schestowitzSo I can use <blockquote> globally now?Jun 19 17:35
fewaits not a templateJun 19 17:35
schestowitzOhJun 19 17:35
schestowitzI suppose I canJun 19 17:35
fewait actually just puts in a <blockquote> elementJun 19 17:35
fewaits the way it works onwikipedia tooJun 19 17:35
DaemonXPand I can say badassed badassbass because that's family friendlyJun 19 17:35
DaemonXPcause it's on WikipediaJun 19 17:35
ThistleWebschestowitz: I saw an openoffice addon in my repos last night to apparently create mediawiki formatted files in OOJun 19 17:35
fewaim trying to get this to work http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Quote&action=editJun 19 17:35
DaemonXP:DJun 19 17:35
DaemonXPit's officially no longer mildly vulgarJun 19 17:36
ThistleWebno idea what it's like, and it did only state mediawikiJun 19 17:36
schestowitzThe Wiki in BN is still in 'alpha'. It will look good when it's done.Jun 19 17:36
DaemonXPschestowitz: George W. Bush was the 43rd PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENISJun 19 17:36
DaemonXP:PJun 19 17:36
fewamaybe you have to turn on logic or somthing for templatesJun 19 17:36
DaemonXPI'm going to turn that in as a school essay cause I is smartJun 19 17:37
DaemonXP:PJun 19 17:37
fewathe {{quote}} wraps <blockquote> allowing sources in a nice mannerJun 19 17:37
DaemonXPWikipedia: The tourettes syndrome that any corporate interest ot 12 year old can edit!Jun 19 17:37
DaemonXPnyaaahJun 19 17:37
fewathere should be a standard "template pack" you can add to a wikiJun 19 17:38
DaemonXPschestowitz: George W. Bush was the 43rd PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS PENIS who sent Dale Stewart to conquer the Martians in the Great War of 2074Jun 19 17:38
schestowitzfewa: thanks! I see what you meanJun 19 17:38
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonXP from #boycottnovell (schestowitz)Jun 19 17:38
*DaemonXP (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 17:39
DaemonXP:PJun 19 17:39
DaemonXPWikipedia is just ridiculous and full of obvious falsehoods, vandalism, and corporate astroturfJun 19 17:39
ThistleWebschestowitz: try craeting the Bill Gates wiki page in OO, there's a plugin to let you create mediawiki filesJun 19 17:39
DaemonXPEncarta probably actually had more factual information just for thatJun 19 17:40
fewaDaemonXP, Wikipedia has more factual data and content than probably any other siteJun 19 17:40
DaemonXPyeah, after they lock the pageJun 19 17:40
DaemonXPafter plagiarizing real encyclopedias and changing the words aroundJun 19 17:41
fewaDaemonXP, and 500X the numbers of articles and contentJun 19 17:41
fewayou cant plagerism that which doesnt existJun 19 17:41
DaemonXPmost of it is uncited, has spelling and grammatical errors, and is written by someone with a vested interet in either slandering or promoting the subjectJun 19 17:41
DaemonXPI've vandalized some things before just to see how long the vandalism would lastJun 19 17:42
DaemonXPit took them over 6 months to notice itJun 19 17:42
DaemonXPin some casesJun 19 17:43
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DaemonXPin that time probably thousands of people had read and believed my "facts"Jun 19 17:43
DaemonXPno doubtJun 19 17:43
DaemonXPif it's that easy for me, then you know that the abuse is rampant and widespreadJun 19 17:43
DaemonXPit's gotten to where the administrators have to be so paranoid that their scripts revert even real, legitimate edits as "vandalism"Jun 19 17:44
DaemonXPjust to be "safe"Jun 19 17:44
DaemonXPwhich is ridiculousJun 19 17:44
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DaemonXPthe best way though to vandalize Wikipedia, is to cite yourself with a 3 or 4 page news article on the subjectJun 19 17:47
DaemonXPeven if it doesn't say anything about what you're "citing"Jun 19 17:47
DaemonXPbecause nobody bothers to read through that, they just see that it's cited and take it as gospelJun 19 17:48
DaemonXPso it'll stay there for a lot longerJun 19 17:48
kentmaahh, he's nym-shifted again.Jun 19 17:48
DaemonXPmaybe monthsJun 19 17:48
kentmaschestowitz: do you know if pidgin supports regex /ignores, at all?Jun 19 17:48
schestowitzThistleWeb: thanks, but OOo, like most WYSIWYG generate inelegant markupJun 19 17:49
DaemonXPthey're working on thatJun 19 17:49
DaemonXPit'll come right after webcam supportJun 19 17:49
DaemonXPwhich should only be about another lets se....Jun 19 17:49
schestowitzDaemonXP: you're flooding the channel with aggravationJun 19 17:49
DaemonXPnever divided by never, carry the never, equals never with a remainder of neverJun 19 17:49
DaemonXPso have fun with PidginJun 19 17:49
kentmaschestowitz: he's a pain, to be honest - all the usual traits of the shills and trolls.Jun 19 17:50
DaemonXPit's really not hard to see why GNOME is pushing Empathy, it can hardly be any more featureless or use any more RAM for what it doesJun 19 17:50
DaemonXP:DJun 19 17:50
kentmaschestowitz: It's mildly irritating to have to keep /ignoring him.Jun 19 17:50
DaemonXP*than PidginJun 19 17:51
ThistleWebschestowitz: I was gonna say "who cares about the markup" but then when peeps edit the wiki they need to use it, still....have you tried the mediawiki addon? Considering that function I'd have thought it'd be pretty pureJun 19 17:51
kentmaschestowitz: but not as irritating as having to read what he says if I don't, of course.Jun 19 17:51
DaemonXPand generic HTML formatting floods designed to boot people off MSN, Yahoo, or AIM will crash Pidgin tooJun 19 17:51
DaemonXPon its default settingsJun 19 17:51
DaemonXP*bonus*Jun 19 17:51
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonXP from #boycottnovell (schestowitz)Jun 19 17:51
schestowitzThat's betterJun 19 17:52
schestowitzHe'll hopefully behave betterJun 19 17:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "You're using an old web browser to browse Facebook. To use the full version of Chat..." Facebook chat fail on FF 3.5 #failJun 19 17:52
*DaemonXP (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 17:52
schestowitzHe got banned within the first hour he showed up here 2 months agoJun 19 17:52
schestowitzDaemonXP: next time is a "ban". If you're here to troll, then sorry... some people complain privatelyJun 19 17:52
fewawell wikipedia is differnt from mediawikiJun 19 17:52
DaemonXPyou could probably turn that into a security vulnerability if you wanted to try hard enough, but hey, blinking purple italic fonts are totally worth itJun 19 17:53
fewamediawiki lacks most (or all?) of the templatesJun 19 17:53
ThistleWebwikipedia uses mediawikiJun 19 17:53
ThistleWebit is mediawikiJun 19 17:54
fewait just lacks most of the libraries of the languageJun 19 17:54
fewaby defaultJun 19 17:54
ThistleWebI can't imagine it being that differentJun 19 17:54
DaemonXPI ended up just setting Windows Live Web Messenger and Yahoo Web Messenger as home pages while I'm booted into LinuxJun 19 17:54
schestowitzfewa: can they be imported?Jun 19 17:54
fewathere was no {{quote}} {{cquote}} {{rquote}}Jun 19 17:55
schestowitzThanks a lot for helping BTWJun 19 17:55
fewayeahJun 19 17:55
DaemonXPthey use less resources than PidginJun 19 17:55
fewaof course wikipedia is bloated with templatesJun 19 17:55
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fewayou should get that logic to work, i have no idea howJun 19 17:55
fewathe {{#ifJun 19 17:56
DaemonXPWikipedia is what you get when cloud computing, free licensing, and an ex porn company CEO collideJun 19 17:58
DaemonXPit's an interesting social experiment at leastJun 19 17:58
fewaschestowitz, http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctionsJun 19 17:58
DaemonXPI love how it makes a crazy cat lady living in a trailer park in Alabama equal to a Harvard professorJun 19 17:59
DaemonXPthey're jsut o fairJun 19 17:59
DaemonXPand she can even say she's a professor at HarvardJun 19 17:59
DaemonXPhow cool is that?Jun 19 17:59
DaemonXP*just soJun 19 17:59
fewaDaemonXP, Jimmy Whale is alot a successful forex traderJun 19 18:00
fewa*alsoJun 19 18:00
DaemonXPWikipedia is total bunk with a few pristine articles they prop up to make it look respectibleJun 19 18:00
DaemonXPwhich are locked from editingJun 19 18:00
schestowitzfewa: are you still editing that page?Jun 19 18:01
fewaschestowitz, that makes complicated tempaltes workJun 19 18:01
schestowitzOr can I add more references? I see some code like "{#if:|, {{{3}}}}}"Jun 19 18:01
fewahttp://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctionsJun 19 18:01
fewayou have to enable the extentionJun 19 18:01
schestowitzfewa: oh, I see.Jun 19 18:02
schestowitzLet me tryJun 19 18:02
DaemonXPPresident Obama has finally given benefits to same sex couples who are federal employees* (*just not health insurance or pension or stuff that "normal" people get)Jun 19 18:03
DaemonXPthe wolf in sheep's clothing strikes againJun 19 18:03
DaemonXPhttp://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/thegaggle/archive/2009/06/17/obama-lgbt-benefits-memo-just-a-start.aspxJun 19 18:03
DaemonXPso after he skipped over the 90% of what matters to do some good old fashioned headlines....Jun 19 18:04
DaemonXPwhat DID he actually give them?Jun 19 18:04
DaemonXPschestowitz: I'm giving 0.1% of you 10% of the rights of human beings, bow before me!!!Jun 19 18:05
DaemonXPnyaaahJun 19 18:05
DaemonXPI really hate that manJun 19 18:05
DaemonXPthe least he could do is quit telling us its raining while he's pissing on usJun 19 18:06
schestowitzHa1Jun 19 18:06
schestowitzfewa: it works nowJun 19 18:06
schestowitzInstalled and the page looks good!Jun 19 18:06
DaemonXPhmmm, got a new coffee mugJun 19 18:07
DaemonXPI should scan this :PJun 19 18:07
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.30.30.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 18:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Feels disgusted every time he reads or hears the name "Imagine Cup"...Jun 19 18:12
DaemonXPhmmmm, OpenSuse is getting a visual makeoverJun 19 18:12
DaemonXPit looks better than the Windows 2000 light beigeJun 19 18:13
DaemonXPhttp://ricardovs.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/opensuse112m2.pngJun 19 18:13
DaemonXPwhen software competes, you win :PJun 19 18:13
fewaschestowitz, add this to monobook css http://pastebin.com/m4915cbd7Jun 19 18:20
schestowitzOK.Jun 19 18:22
schestowitzWait.Jun 19 18:22
fewalook at the size difference between wikipedia monobook and mdiawiki monobookJun 19 18:23
fewahttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/skins/common/commonPrint.css?164 http://en.wikipedia.org//w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&amp;usemsgcache=yes&amp;ctype=text%2Fcss&amp;smaxage=2678400&amp;action=raw&amp;maxage=2678400Jun 19 18:24
schestowitzAdded to wiki/skins/monobook/main.cssJun 19 18:24
schestowitzOh, OKJun 19 18:24
schestowitzDone.Jun 19 18:26
ThistleWebyou have beenJun 19 18:27
ThistleWeblolJun 19 18:27
schestowitzI've found some good smoking gunsJun 19 18:27
schestowitzGates on LinuxJun 19 18:27
schestowitzand C#Jun 19 18:27
schestowitzhow to use it against LinuxJun 19 18:27
DaemonXPBanshee looks to be shaping up for a reasonable 1.6 releaseJun 19 18:28
DaemonXPturns out you can use it with Helix backend to get legally licensed codecsJun 19 18:28
DaemonXPif licensing concerns you that isJun 19 18:28
DaemonXPthat's like the one passable C# app I've seen for LinuxJun 19 18:29
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_Mutex_licensing is nothing to do with it, it just depends if they like the company or not.Jun 19 18:33
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DaemonXPMP3 is pretty liberally licensed for pricate non-commercial useJun 19 18:42
DaemonXPyou don't even have to have a license for itJun 19 18:42
DaemonXP*privateJun 19 18:42
DaemonXPdistros won't include it for some reasonJun 19 18:42
DaemonXPtechnically they would have to pay 75 cents per copy to FhG for the decoder license, but the Fluendo decoder is differentJun 19 18:43
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/ipod_lightning_strike/ < iPod saves lightning-strike teen >Jun 19 18:43
DaemonXPthey can throw that in for free, they choose not toJun 19 18:43
DaemonXP(usually)Jun 19 18:43
DaemonXPit's even open sourceJun 19 18:44
DaemonXP(MIT license)Jun 19 18:44
DaemonXPtechnically under the license, if I produce a distribution I can not only include it without paying any licensing, I can even modify itJun 19 18:45
DaemonXPand FhG grants me a patent license free of charge to cover that endJun 19 18:45
ThistleWebthat iPod / lightning thing reminds me of a comment on the h4cked.com podcast about an app for the iPhone which detects how far away a storm is; his bro pointed out that a simple "one missisippi, two missisippi" between them would tell you in milesJun 19 18:47
DaemonXPmost media players in GNOME are LGPL to prevent conflicts with non-GPL'd codecsJun 19 18:48
DaemonXPthe LGPL doesn't have the virus clauseJun 19 18:48
ThistleWebapparently an electronic device switched on is better than manual counting the secondsJun 19 18:48
ThistleWebmy thinking is that it'd be more of a magnet for the strikeJun 19 18:48
DaemonXPwell, it's certainly cheaperJun 19 18:48
ThistleWebwhich if it did happen would brick your device real goodJun 19 18:49
DaemonXPyeah, brilliant, an app that encourages them to point the iphone up to the sky during a lightning stormJun 19 18:49
DaemonXPwe need more software like thisJun 19 18:49
DaemonXP:DJun 19 18:49
DaemonXPclearly, best program everJun 19 18:49
ThistleWeb"gimmie a simple second count anyday"Jun 19 18:49
DaemonXPiPhone is a pile of crapJun 19 18:50
ThistleWebit may be crude, it may be old fashioned, but it won't turn you into a magnetJun 19 18:50
DaemonXPBlackberry is so much betterJun 19 18:50
ThistleWebmost of us know to turn electric gardgets off during a stormJun 19 18:50
DaemonXPusually the non-Apple product is functional, and the Apple product is just pretty enough to make you pay 5 times what it's worth then find out it only works with other Apple productsJun 19 18:51
DaemonXP:DJun 19 18:51
ThistleWebso wht Apple allowed this app in the app store I don't know, unless they know it's a way to get more sales of new iPhones as more are killed by lightning strikesJun 19 18:51
trmancohttp://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-steve-ballmer-has-gone-bonkers-2009-6Jun 19 18:52
trmancohttp://kilianvalkhof.com/ie8fun/Jun 19 19:00
DaemonXP"We buried $10,000 on a site only IE can display"Jun 19 19:00
DaemonXPHint: It may not be the pop up on the granny porn websiteJun 19 19:01
DaemonXP(good try though)Jun 19 19:01
Omar87Hello there, folks.Jun 19 19:01
schestowitztrmanco: it's misledJun 19 19:01
schestowitzMicrosoft is borrowing moneyJun 19 19:01
schestowitzCalling it cash rich is stupidJun 19 19:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] IE 8, get the *real* facts -> http://is.gd/16vpyJun 19 19:02
schestowitzAnd as Arrington said over  a year ago, it's lfe or death to MicrosoftJun 19 19:02
schestowitzThe Web is killing itJun 19 19:02
DaemonXPsort of bringsa a new meaning to "Spank the monkey and win $10,000"Jun 19 19:02
Omar87Okay, here's this stupid issue I keep facing from some of my colleagues at college.Jun 19 19:02
DaemonXPGod I love these peopleJun 19 19:02
DaemonXP:PJun 19 19:02
DaemonXPendless supply of jokesJun 19 19:03
Omar87Some colleagues come to my asking: "Hey Omar! Do you think that those who produce free software actually make it because they care about you?"Jun 19 19:04
schestowitzhttp://yvoschaap.com/ie8/Jun 19 19:05
schestowitzhahaha.Jun 19 19:05
schestowitz"Webmasters can right click in the browser window, select "Show Source" and advanced dev tools appear: notepad with the HTML markup."Jun 19 19:05
schestowitz"Since Internet Explorer 4 we've fixed over a million bugs that allowed browser attacks, this shows how deticated we are in trying to patch things up afterwards."Jun 19 19:05
fewaschestowitz, nice linkJun 19 19:10
fewachrome actually has webkit's inspector developer toolsJun 19 19:11
fewahavnt really used them howeverJun 19 19:11
fewao wait i was responding to trmanco's linkJun 19 19:13
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trmancoyeahJun 19 19:14
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DaemonXPIE 8 has add-onsJun 19 19:24
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DaemonXPI've been working on migrating some ad blocking rules to AdBlockIE (C#)Jun 19 19:25
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 19:25
DaemonXPjust the generic stuff that catches most of them, nothing real complicates thus farJun 19 19:25
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_Hicham_DaemonXP : howdy?Jun 19 19:26
*DaemonXP looks over at the computerJun 19 19:29
DaemonXPo haiJun 19 19:29
DaemonXPI can has Wiki?Jun 19 19:29
DaemonXP:PJun 19 19:29
fewahttp://radian.org/~krstic/LockhartsLament.pdf A Mathematician's LamentJun 19 19:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Big is Novell’s Debt? < http://ping.fm/3a5uB >Jun 19 19:32
schestowitzfewa: In http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/Bill_Gates , the URLs in the second and fourth blocks don't show up. I can't understand why. I look at the source.Jun 19 19:34
schestowitzfewa: Radian is in Apple nowJun 19 19:34
fewayeah i was wondering about that tooJun 19 19:34
schestowitzLet me try somehting...Jun 19 19:34
fewaits usually a trailing backslash in xhtml or something like thatJun 19 19:35
schestowitzIt's cNETJun 19 19:37
_Hicham_here is a list of mono packages in openSUSEJun 19 19:37
schestowitzMaybe there is something in the URLsJun 19 19:37
_Hicham_apache2-mod_mono,art-sharp2,avahi-mono,bristol-mono,bytefx-data-mysql,dbus-1-mono,evolution-mono-plugins,evolution-mono-providers,evolution-sharp,gconf-sharp2,gecko-sharp2,glade-sharp2,gmime-sharp,gnome-desktop-sharp2,gnome-panel-sharp,gnome-print-sharp,gnome-sharp2,gnome-sharp2-complete,gnome-vfs-sharp2,gsf-sharp,gtk-sharp2-complete,gtk-sharp2-doc,gtkhtml314-sharp,gtksourceview-sharp2,gtksourceview2-sharp,ikvm,libpurple-mono,libqyotoshared1,mono-Jun 19 19:37
schestowitzYou beat me to itJun 19 19:37
schestowitzI've temporarily put them outside the blocks to make then clickableJun 19 19:39
schestowitzI have some gates posts to do in days to comeJun 19 19:39
schestowitzWhen posted in full I'll add them to the WikiJun 19 19:39
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taconeschestowitz: http://www.stefanoforenza.com/getting-gnote-facts-straight/Jun 19 19:49
schestowitzMackenzie Morgan has a lust for MonoJun 19 19:50
schestowitzI don't get itJun 19 19:50
schestowitzAnd she defended Shields as MOTUJun 19 19:50
schestowitzNow I see the hub thingJun 19 19:50
schestowitzIs it "Hubiert"?Jun 19 19:51
schestowitzSeems like a typoJun 19 19:51
DaemonXPScott James Remnant wrote:Jun 19 19:53
DaemonXP> One of my principal concerns would that Gnote is simply a code port ofJun 19 19:53
DaemonXP> Tomboy from Mono to C++, with little development of its own.  This meansJun 19 19:53
DaemonXP> that should the maintainer tire of converting C# to C++, the projectJun 19 19:53
DaemonXP> could quite quickly die.Jun 19 19:53
DaemonXPyay for FUD from an Ubuntu developerJun 19 19:53
DaemonXP:DJun 19 19:53
schestowitzOK, let's look at some Linux newsJun 19 19:53
schestowitzThis was predictable... he's the last one to use the Ubuntu trademark for a fork: Ubuntu shuts down Satan Jun 19 19:55
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1356954/ubuntu-shuts-satanJun 19 19:55
schestowitzTo be fair, Ubuntu is a generic word, but he uses it to describe essentially the same product, and that can be a problemJun 19 19:55
DaemonXPhehJun 19 19:56
DaemonXPapologize for them all you wantJun 19 19:56
DaemonXPRIAAbuntuJun 19 19:57
DaemonXPhow's that?Jun 19 19:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Who ever said Linux was helping TERROR~1? http://ping.fm/hMzmGJun 19 19:57
DaemonXPsending threatening letters to people as a way of doing businessJun 19 19:57
_Hicham_schestowitz : should I put mononono on BN or on openSUSE Build Service?Jun 19 19:57
schestowitzBoth?Jun 19 19:58
_Hicham_ok, I am gonna send it to uJun 19 19:59
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schestowitzGroklaw members will chip in and we'll buy NOVL when it's PK.Jun 19 19:59
*_Hicham_ has offered mononono-0.0.1-1.noarch.rpm (3953 bytes)Jun 19 19:59
*DCC RECV connect attempt to _Hicham_ failed (err=Connection refused).Jun 19 19:59
schestowitzThanls.Jun 19 19:59
_Hicham_u don't wanna accept the file?Jun 19 20:00
schestowitzYesJun 19 20:00
schestowitzRetryJun 19 20:00
*_Hicham_ has offered mononono-0.0.1-1.noarch.rpm (3953 bytes)Jun 19 20:00
*DCC RECV connect attempt to _Hicham_ failed (err=Connection refused).Jun 19 20:00
schestowitzWierd..Jun 19 20:00
_Hicham_did u receive an invite or sthg?Jun 19 20:00
schestowitzWhy does it fail?Jun 19 20:01
schestowitzmail it to me: roy at schestowitz comJun 19 20:01
_Hicham_okJun 19 20:01
schestowitzI'll also install it in MandrivaJun 19 20:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @michaelnolan Fire guts Georgia Theatre in Athens http://twurl.nl/sk1ln8 no-one hurt, owner will rebuildJun 19 20:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Time to buy a lot of underwear to help Jammie. $2 million worth... http://ping.fm/PRNh6 Context: http://ping.fm/BcD2lJun 19 20:02
_Hicham_schestowitz : ok, sentJun 19 20:03
schestowitz_Hicham_: does it work only with SUSE?Jun 19 20:03
schestowitzOr did OBS do it for all?Jun 19 20:04
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tacone1schestowitz: saw the link ?Jun 19 20:04
_Hicham_schestowitz : i tested it on SUSEJun 19 20:04
schestowitzI don't want to spread RPM to people whose PCs can be messed up by itJun 19 20:04
tacone1sorry i fellJun 19 20:04
schestowitztacone: there's a typoJun 19 20:04
schestowitz"Hubiert"Jun 19 20:04
_Hicham_after, I am gonna test on Fedora and MandrivaJun 19 20:04
tacone1k thxJun 19 20:05
_Hicham_schestowitz : did u receive it?Jun 19 20:05
DaemonXPhttp://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/ubuntu-adopts-tactics-of-the-riaa-to-pull-down-a-community-parody/Jun 19 20:05
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 20:06
schestowitzOKJun 19 20:06
_Hicham_?Jun 19 20:06
DaemonXP"Death, taxes, and Microsoft Vista, but then again, Microsoft never made any such pretensions of respecting freedom of speech, so at least they aren?t hypocrites. *shrug*"Jun 19 20:06
schestowitzLet's see what happens if I try to install Mono nowJun 19 20:06
schestowitz_Hicham_: yesJun 19 20:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tacone] Putting an end to the disinformation about gnote in the !ubuntu community: http://tinyurl.com/nbfh7y #monoJun 19 20:07
_Hicham_did u install it on Mandriva schestowitz?Jun 19 20:07
schestowitzI can still install monoJun 19 20:08
schestowitz_Hicham_: apparently yesJun 19 20:08
schestowitzBut it's not in my /usr/binJun 19 20:09
schestowitzCan't find itJun 19 20:09
schestowitzIt didn't prevent a mono infectionJun 19 20:09
schestowitzI am deleting Mono nowJun 19 20:09
schestowitz"As Germany plans to censor Internet access, freedom activists have launched a strong campaign of protests,  but it has brought out of the woodwork various different interests that want to censor something or other." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#18%20June%202009%20%28Net%20Censorship%20battle%20in%20Germany%29Jun 19 20:10
_Hicham_because mandriva packages are not the sameJun 19 20:10
_Hicham_ok, I am adding Mandriva packagesJun 19 20:10
schestowitz"After complaints that London police were using their power to search anyone — with no specific basis — mainly against non-whites, they  set up a quota for whites to search, just to balance it out." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-mar-jun.html#18%20June%202009%20%28London%20police%20set%20up%20a%20quota%20for%20whites%20to%20search%29Jun 19 20:11
schestowitzI have a friend who was stopped by the police for no reasonJun 19 20:12
schestowitzMaybe they did their 'quota'Jun 19 20:12
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DaemonXPI did try the daily build of Ubuntu Karmic yesterdayJun 19 20:13
schestowitzThe photo here is priceless: Tony Blair knew of secret policy on terror interrogations < http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/18/tony-blair-secret-torture-policy >Jun 19 20:13
_Hicham_schestowitz : I sent u an updated packageJun 19 20:13
DaemonXPthings segfault randomlyJun 19 20:13
DaemonXPother than that it seems about like JauntyJun 19 20:13
DaemonXPPulseaudio works a lot better til Totem crashesJun 19 20:13
DaemonXP*shrug*Jun 19 20:13
schestowitz_Hicham_: how do I know you're not sending me a virus? :-pJun 19 20:14
DaemonXPit's probably triggered by the mass rebuild of packages using GCC 4.4 which seems to be a bit flakeyJun 19 20:14
_Hicham_schestowitz : as u likeJun 19 20:14
DaemonXPI would stick to GCC 4.3.2 if you are a GCC userJun 19 20:14
DaemonXPfor the time being :)Jun 19 20:14
_Hicham_it is up to u to testJun 19 20:14
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_Hicham_DaemonXP : Fedora 11 is 100% gcc4.4Jun 19 20:15
DaemonXPyeah I knowJun 19 20:15
_Hicham_DaemonXP : are on Windows on Linux now?Jun 19 20:15
DaemonXPright now I'm in VistaJun 19 20:15
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_Hicham_I thought u could help us testing a packageJun 19 20:16
schestowitz_Hicham_: I'd need a test machine for itJun 19 20:16
trmanconice post tacone1Jun 19 20:16
_Hicham_schestowitz : why? u r not on Mandriva?Jun 19 20:16
schestowitzOr a VMJun 19 20:16
schestowitzI amJun 19 20:16
tacone1trmanco: best post are copy-pasted posts ;-)Jun 19 20:16
schestowitzBut to deal with experimental packages is riskyJun 19 20:16
DaemonXPI'm batch converting a bunch of musicJun 19 20:17
trmancoheheJun 19 20:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] [corp-focus] The Good, the Bad, the Ugly: Financial Sector Reform < http://ping.fm/sVbsV >Jun 19 20:17
DaemonXPWindows has better transcoding toolsJun 19 20:17
DaemonXPGNOME uses idiot buttons for all their GUI toolsJun 19 20:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: we should ask Mandriva to put it in the reposJun 19 20:17
schestowitzWho was the Cooker guy again?Jun 19 20:17
schestowitzThey can test it properlyJun 19 20:17
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DaemonXPyou can get decent results with SoundConverterJun 19 20:18
*macabe (n=macabe@cpe-67-240-216-105.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 20:18
DaemonXPbut it won't let you fine tune the commands sent to the encoderJun 19 20:18
_Hicham_schestowitz : just this oneJun 19 20:18
_Hicham_plzJun 19 20:18
_Hicham_it will workJun 19 20:18
_Hicham_for sureJun 19 20:18
_Hicham_the last one i sent uJun 19 20:18
schestowitzhttp://www.linux-wizard.net/blog-my_ideas_for_mandriva_20100-291.htmlJun 19 20:18
schestowitzWe need to tell himJun 19 20:18
schestowitzI think he's doing the Mandriva reposJun 19 20:19
_Hicham_dont worry, it won't mess up ur systemJun 19 20:19
DaemonXPI commented that I'd like to see less Xulrunner dependenciesJun 19 20:19
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 20:19
_Hicham_DaemonXP : want to test a package?Jun 19 20:19
DaemonXPwhat package?Jun 19 20:19
_Hicham_mononono rpm versionJun 19 20:19
DaemonXPwhat the hell is that?Jun 19 20:20
DaemonXPand why do I want to install it?Jun 19 20:20
DaemonXP:DJun 19 20:20
neighborlee__Hicham_: id be happy to test,,when I get back home :)Jun 19 20:20
_Hicham_neighborlee : u r not on linux right now?Jun 19 20:20
neighborlee_win XP:LibraryJun 19 20:20
_Hicham_come on DaemonXPJun 19 20:20
_Hicham_u r a great testerJun 19 20:21
schestowitzAmazon code release irrelevant, Kindle is still closed http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/06/amazon-code-release-irrelevant-kindle-is-still-closed.ars "The code release is purely for GPL compliance while the Kindle's ebook features remain proprietary."Jun 19 20:21
_Hicham_wowJun 19 20:21
_Hicham_sleepy roomJun 19 20:21
_Hicham_no testersJun 19 20:21
_Hicham_at allJun 19 20:21
neighborlee_came with friend and I thought I might as well log on and say howdy pardsJun 19 20:21
DaemonXPschestowitz: And that's just fineJun 19 20:21
DaemonXPGPL 2 doesn't try to dictate the hardware it runs onJun 19 20:21
DaemonXPthat's why it's not scaring all the fish awayJun 19 20:21
_Hicham_schestowitz : if people want to test it, there are against monoJun 19 20:21
_Hicham_otherwise, we are having traitors in this channelJun 19 20:22
*schestowitz waves hello to neighborlee Jun 19 20:22
neighborlee_waves lolJun 19 20:22
schestowitzWe terst monononoJun 19 20:22
schestowitzBN in actionJun 19 20:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : are u testing the second package?Jun 19 20:23
schestowitzWhat's libgdiplus?Jun 19 20:23
schestowitzMononono wants to remove itJun 19 20:23
schestowitzI don't want to break appsJun 19 20:23
_Hicham_it depends on monoJun 19 20:24
schestowitzWhat's it for?Jun 19 20:24
_Hicham_it is part of mono projectJun 19 20:24
schestowitzBut it doesn't grab mono with itJun 19 20:24
schestowitzHow do I check what uses it?Jun 19 20:24
_Hicham_gdi plus is the drawing library for windowsJun 19 20:24
schestowitzHeheJun 19 20:24
_Hicham_and it has been ported to linux by monoJun 19 20:24
schestowitzSo long Jun 19 20:24
schestowitzHopefully it won't blow upJun 19 20:24
_Hicham_do u want to keep it?Jun 19 20:24
schestowitzDeleted nowJun 19 20:25
schestowitzWhat program uses it?Jun 19 20:25
_Hicham_mono programs for sureJun 19 20:26
neighborlee__Hicham_: no wonder we've not heard of it o_0Jun 19 20:26
_Hicham_is my package useful?Jun 19 20:26
schestowitzVirtualBox Finally Supports Windows Games on a Mac < http://news.softpedia.com/news/VirtualBox-Finally-Supports-Windows-Games-on-a-Mac-114707.shtml >Jun 19 20:26
neighborlee_haJun 19 20:26
schestowitz_Hicham_: yesJun 19 20:26
schestowitzWe need these in reposJun 19 20:26
_Hicham_will u put in on BN?Jun 19 20:26
schestowitzMicrosoft is spreading virusesJun 19 20:26
_Hicham_like me?Jun 19 20:26
_Hicham_:)Jun 19 20:27
schestowitzAnd now we need to explain new users that Ubuntu comes with a virus out of the boxJun 19 20:27
schestowitzAnd needs removingJun 19 20:27
schestowitzThe mononucleosis-noarch.rpm packageJun 19 20:27
schestowitz_Hicham_: not putting it up yet because it needs testingJun 19 20:27
schestowitzWould the RPM work in all Fedoras, Mandrivas and SUSEs? I don't know.Jun 19 20:28
_Hicham_put it for testing at leastJun 19 20:29
schestowitz_Hicham_: I keep it on my desktop for nowJun 19 20:29
schestowitzWe'll get back to itJun 19 20:29
_Hicham_okJun 19 20:29
schestowitzI don't want to risk breaking people's PCsJun 19 20:29
_Hicham_it won't break anythingJun 19 20:30
_Hicham_it will just clean itJun 19 20:30
neighborlee_kinda funny..using bing 'mono' project comes up several lines down...in google its the first one ..gofig_Jun 19 20:30
neighborlee__Hicham_: great work sounds great..just what doctor ordered ;)Jun 19 20:30
schestowitzClam AV update fixes archive bug  < http://www.h-online.com/security/Clam-AV-update-fixes-archive-bug--/news/113556>Jun 19 20:30
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, it's a metapackageJun 19 20:30
schestowitzBut what is it compatible with?Jun 19 20:31
_Hicham_libgdiplus0Jun 19 20:31
schestowitzIn repos it addresses a tested-against distreoJun 19 20:31
_Hicham_This is part of the Mono project. It is required when using Windows.Forms.Jun 19 20:31
_Hicham_it can be used on openSUSE, Mandriva, and FedoraJun 19 20:31
schestowitzSo why was it on Mandriva?Jun 19 20:31
_Hicham_i don't understandJun 19 20:32
_Hicham_what do u mean?Jun 19 20:32
schestowitzlibgdiplus0Jun 19 20:32
_Hicham_because it doesn't depend on anythingJun 19 20:32
_Hicham_it was an orphanJun 19 20:32
_Hicham_it is requited when using Windows.FormsJun 19 20:33
schestowitzThe FSDaily articles are often depressing.  http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/microsofts_secret_weapon_isnt_fud_its_inertia Microsoft's Secret Weapon isn't FUD, it's InertiaJun 19 20:33
_Hicham_so, ur system was infected without knowing itJun 19 20:33
schestowitzIt reminds of these people who think that Microsoft is omnipotentJun 19 20:33
_Mutex_how is that secret ??Jun 19 20:33
schestowitzEven when it takes loansJun 19 20:33
_Hicham_i gave u an antivirus, while u r accusing me of spreading virusesJun 19 20:33
schestowitzNopeJun 19 20:34
schestowitzDidn't see the smiley?Jun 19 20:34
schestowitz:-pJun 19 20:34
schestowitzWith the tongue?Jun 19 20:34
_Hicham_I seen itJun 19 20:34
_Hicham_just j/kJun 19 20:34
schestowitzI tried to convery the humour with emoticonsJun 19 20:34
_Hicham_:-DJun 19 20:34
schestowitzText convos suckJun 19 20:35
schestowitzMS exodus: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/171659.asp?source=rssJun 19 20:35
schestowitzThere's not much left in MSJun 19 20:35
_Hicham_u should add sound support to this channelJun 19 20:35
schestowitzThey move onJun 19 20:35
schestowitz_Hicham_: can't. Maybe you'll run the BN podcastJun 19 20:35
schestowitzWith oiaohmJun 19 20:35
schestowitzLike Linux OutlawsJun 19 20:35
schestowitzCall it "Freedom outlawz"Jun 19 20:36
_Hicham_where is that DaemonXP?Jun 19 20:39
_Hicham_show up!Jun 19 20:39
_Hicham_where r u hiding?Jun 19 20:40
neighborlee_lolJun 19 20:41
_Hicham_neighborlee_ : still at the libraryJun 19 20:41
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schestowitzAsay's vision of FOSS: "Google, in short, is what open source wants to be when it grows up." http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10268180-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoadJun 19 20:42
schestowitzIt says it all reallyJun 19 20:42
neighborleeno...going home roughly 30min~Jun 19 20:42
schestowitzThe open source crowd is pro-proprietary when it suits themJun 19 20:42
neighborleejust got tired of _ ;)Jun 19 20:42
schestowitzneighborlee: seen the gnote item yet?Jun 19 20:43
schestowitzhttp://www.stefanoforenza.com/getting-gnote-facts-straight/Jun 19 20:43
neighborleenopeJun 19 20:43
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neighborleeohyes no surprise..more f, u and dJun 19 20:46
schestowitzSee who's responsible for itJun 19 20:46
neighborleemackenzie and s james yesJun 19 20:48
schestowitzf u d from sjvn: First look: Opera Unite alpha lets you share files -- but is it safe? < http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9134511 >Jun 19 20:48
schestowitzI heard similar rumours elsewhereJun 19 20:50
schestowitzLike a whisper campaign about gnote at risk of dyingJun 19 20:51
schestowitzI can't recall where I've been seeing thatJun 19 20:51
schestowitzHow many people maintain tomboy? Sandy and.......Jun 19 20:51
schestowitzPlugins..Jun 19 20:51
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neighborleeschestowitz: risk of dying is laughable ;)Jun 19 20:55
DaemonXPWhat is it? With Opera Unite, you can, in theory, share files on your computer -- photos, MP3 audio files, etc. -- with your friends or the entire world. You can also use applets that let you, for example, host real-time chats or discussion forums. Any user, no matter what browser they use, can access whatever you decide to share.Jun 19 21:02
DaemonXPsweetJun 19 21:02
DaemonXPnot like CuteFTP or anything!Jun 19 21:02
DaemonXPtotally newJun 19 21:02
DaemonXP:PJun 19 21:02
neighborleeschestowitz: so is this new mononono going to be posted at your site or do you want more testing..getting ready to post about it on mandrfiva formJun 19 21:02
DaemonXPwonder how long before there's port scanning software to detect which IPs are sharing files randomlyJun 19 21:03
DaemonXPand what you can take from themJun 19 21:03
DaemonXP:DJun 19 21:03
DaemonXPbefore you know it, some fucktard will put his tax returns in his share folderJun 19 21:04
DaemonXPand the US Congress will try to ban OperaJun 19 21:04
DaemonXP:DJun 19 21:04
neighborleefew things perfect..learn to move as wave on sea..flow grasshopper ;)Jun 19 21:06
DaemonXPyeah, it's illegal to gouge peoples eyes out for complaining to the government that Linewire is to blame for where they put their 1040Jun 19 21:06
DaemonXPso you have to learn to breathe, in and outJun 19 21:07
DaemonXPvery slowlyJun 19 21:07
neighborleehttp://www.successconsciousness.com/index_000033.htmJun 19 21:07
taconehttp://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-why-to-use-it/Jun 19 21:09
neighborleeyup..using that right now ;0-Jun 19 21:09
taconeno more mibbit :(Jun 19 21:09
schestowitzneighborlee: what do you run now?Jun 19 21:10
schestowitzMaybe you can test it?Jun 19 21:10
neighborleeim still at library sorryJun 19 21:10
schestowitzAh Jun 19 21:10
schestowitzThat's goodJun 19 21:10
neighborleefriend surfing..MADNESSJun 19 21:10
schestowitzRun it on WindowsJun 19 21:10
taconeschestowitz: in a way or another, mibbit won't work anymore with freenodeJun 19 21:11
schestowitzIt deltree c:Jun 19 21:11
neighborleegoing home soon.his time is almost at handJun 19 21:11
taconeso you have to change the boycottnovell webchat.Jun 19 21:11
schestowitzRemoves the WindowsJun 19 21:11
schestowitzJust like it sez on the winJun 19 21:11
schestowitz*winJun 19 21:11
schestowitz*tinJun 19 21:11
neighborleelolJun 19 21:11
_Mutex_WAsnt that a famous dog ????  winwintin ??Jun 19 21:12
neighborleehaJun 19 21:12
neighborleefriend is doneJun 19 21:13
neighborleelogging off going home, and will testJun 19 21:13
neighborleechowJun 19 21:13
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schestowitzMaybe they do it for compeittive reasons?Jun 19 21:14
schestowitz"Terminated"Jun 19 21:14
schestowitzHeh.Jun 19 21:14
schestowitzThey block it, in deedJun 19 21:14
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schestowitzHow can I pass chat arguments to this thing?Jun 19 21:15
schestowitzLike channel to enter?Jun 19 21:15
schestowitzin the URLJun 19 21:15
schestowitz"Completely open source (GPLv2)."Jun 19 21:16
schestowitzhttp://qwebirc.org/featuresJun 19 21:16
DaemonXPthere was a article a while back comparing OpenSuse to OS XJun 19 21:19
DaemonXPI asked the author when exactly OS X made you add foreign repos to get MPEG codecs and create dependency conflicts in the processJun 19 21:19
taconewow, planet gnome has a post about windows stuff http://planet.gnome.org/Jun 19 21:20
DaemonXPoh no, you can work around that by "prioritizing your repository"Jun 19 21:20
DaemonXPjesus, it's bad enough you have to add themJun 19 21:20
DaemonXPwhy should you have to protect them from each other?Jun 19 21:20
DaemonXPthat's where the whole concept of a repository breaks downJun 19 21:20
DaemonXPwhen they can start a food fight with each otherJun 19 21:21
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DaemonXPApt and Yum aren't very smart, they just go after the package who's naming suggests it's an upgradeJun 19 21:22
DaemonXPregardless of where it came from and how badly it may break your systemJun 19 21:22
DaemonXPand Yast isn't a lot betterJun 19 21:22
DaemonXPso if I am a dumbass and package something where the name suggests you your distribution that it's an upgrade, your distro will just grab it and commit suicide automaticallyJun 19 21:23
DaemonXP:DJun 19 21:23
schestowitzI can run this locally, I guessJun 19 21:23
DaemonXPAtRPM's has been notorious for doing precisely thatJun 19 21:23
DaemonXPonly they INTEND toJun 19 21:24
DaemonXPthey have been known to replace your fedora-release RPMJun 19 21:24
DaemonXPthen when the next Fedora comes out you have actually been using a broken system for the last several months that might not be upgradeable now and didn't even know itJun 19 21:25
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DaemonXPschestowitz: I got my Unbreakable Linux DVDJun 19 21:26
DaemonXP:PJun 19 21:26
DaemonXPOracle's RHEL ripoffJun 19 21:26
schestowitzIt'll be complicated to installl this locally and auto loginJun 19 21:27
*neighborlee_ is now known as neighborleeJun 19 21:27
DaemonXPhttp://unite.opera.com/Jun 19 21:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @bastique @brionv says: "IE8 is pretty reliable. It finished downloading Firefox without a single crash."Jun 19 21:32
DaemonXPhttp://unite.opera.com/Jun 19 21:33
DaemonXP"It's basically a "friend to friend" file sharing thing, you set up a list of files or folders you want shared, and a password to be let in, and it's like running a really simplified private FTP server, only Opera will let any user with any browser log in and view your folders as web pages.Jun 19 21:33
DaemonXPSo basically unless you give the RIAA your password, it would be a federal crime for them to snoop inside apassword protected "Opera Unite", which is pretty cool. It's basically a remarketing of the concept of a darknet"Jun 19 21:33
DaemonXPIt's basically a re-marketing of the "darknet" concept.Jun 19 21:33
DaemonXPerrrJun 19 21:33
DaemonXPthat didn't format rightJun 19 21:33
DaemonXPooopsJun 19 21:33
DaemonXPdamn you ctrl-c!!!!Jun 19 21:33
DaemonXPstill cool thoughJun 19 21:34
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 19 21:34
DaemonXPit means that if you have a private share folder that the RIAA can't send out their Media Defender lapdogs after itJun 19 21:34
DaemonXPschestowitz: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13526_3-10065934-27.htmlJun 19 21:35
DaemonXPWhat I was talking about yesterdayJun 19 21:36
trmancoyou did that?Jun 19 21:36
trmancoyou killed python ? :-PJun 19 21:36
schestowitzI'm installing someJun 19 21:36
DaemonXPthe cards will work in any MP3 player with a micro sd slotJun 19 21:36
schestowitzAlso TwistedJun 19 21:36
schestowitzPython libJun 19 21:36
DaemonXPbut now they have a $20 player with no internal storageJun 19 21:36
schestowitzLet's see if I can run IRC from the Bn  serverJun 19 21:36
DaemonXPyou just use the micro SD cards with the MP3s already on themJun 19 21:36
DaemonXPkinda defeats the purpose of having gigs of storage and thousands of bootleg MP3sJun 19 21:37
DaemonXPbut oh wellJun 19 21:37
DaemonXPwhen in RomeJun 19 21:37
DaemonXP:PJun 19 21:37
DaemonXPcompanies have the strangest ideasJun 19 21:39
DaemonXP:PJun 19 21:39
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DaemonXPATRAC anyone?Jun 19 21:39
*DaemonXP falls over laughingJun 19 21:39
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*_Goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 21:41
schestowitzOh waitJun 19 21:46
schestowitzI can embedJun 19 21:46
schestowitzBut...Jun 19 21:46
schestowitzQuestion: would you guys prefer I ran the server from bn.com?Jun 19 21:46
schestowitzFor privacy reasons?Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzOne point of faoliure tooJun 19 21:47
schestowitzfailureJun 19 21:47
schestowitzimport dummyauthgate as AUTHGATEPROVIDERJun 19 21:47
schestowitzIRCSERVER, IRCPORT = "irc.freenote.net", 6667Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzUPDATE_FREQ = 0.5Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzMAXBUFLEN = 10000Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzMAXSUBSCRIPTIONS = 3Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzREALNAME = "Boycott Novell"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzMAXLINELEN = 600Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzIDENT = "Boycott Novell"   # set this value to None if you'd like a hex representation of the IPJun 19 21:47
schestowitzBASE_URL = "http://boycottnovell.com/irc/"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzFEEDBACK_FROM = "r@schestowitz.com"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzFEEDBACK_TO = "r@schestowitz.com"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzFEEDBACK_SMTP_HOST = "127.0.0.1"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzFEEDBACK_SMTP_PORT = 25Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzADMIN_ENGINE_HOSTS = ["127.0.0.1"]Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzHTTP_REQUEST_TIMEOUT = 5Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzHTTP_AJAX_REQUEST_TIMEOUT = 30Jun 19 21:47
schestowitz# optional default arguments:Jun 19 21:47
schestowitz# ARGS = "-n -p 3989"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzNETWORK_NAME = "Boycott Novell"Jun 19 21:47
schestowitzAPP_TITLE = "Boycott Novell"Jun 19 21:47
_Goblinsorry roy...i was afkJun 19 21:51
_GoblinTo me, it does not matter.Jun 19 21:51
*royston-test (i=8258be83@gateway/web/freenode/x-3844dacd4a6dd87c) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 21:52
schestowitzOK, it worksJun 19 21:52
schestowitz_Goblin: OKJun 19 21:52
schestowitzBecause in principle I could run it locallyJun 19 21:53
schestowitzIt's GPL s/w nowJun 19 21:53
schestowitzI was just about to install itJun 19 21:53
schestowitzTwisted in 1300 files (!!)Jun 19 21:53
royston-testtestJun 19 21:53
*royston-test has quit (Client Quit)Jun 19 21:53
_GoblinIm happy with whatever...Jun 19 21:53
_Goblinhi royston...bye roystonJun 19 21:54
_GoblinI was blown away by his contribution.Jun 19 21:55
schestowitzThat was meJun 19 22:02
schestowitz[maybe you were sarcastic] See the new IRC embedded in pagesJun 19 22:02
DaemonXPhmmJun 19 22:06
DaemonXPI have an ideaJun 19 22:06
DaemonXPmaybe if I install Oblivion GOTY in Vista and copied it over to by Wine installation in MandrivaJun 19 22:07
DaemonXPcause I know the game works but the copy protection scheme in this revision kills WineJun 19 22:07
DaemonXPcan't even install itJun 19 22:07
*DaemonXP wonders if it depends on much registry crapJun 19 22:08
DaemonXPhmmmJun 19 22:10
DaemonXPthe Opera Unite code only increases the package size by about 2 megsJun 19 22:10
_Goblin?Jun 19 22:11
_Goblincant you simply install the GOTY through Wine..?Jun 19 22:11
_GoblinIm sure there is a workaround....Jun 19 22:11
DaemonXPnoJun 19 22:12
_GoblinahJun 19 22:12
DaemonXPthe workaround doesn't workJun 19 22:12
DaemonXPit just spits out a new errorJun 19 22:12
DaemonXPI think the workaround works around an older revision of the GOTY editionJun 19 22:12
_Goblinwhat about a dubious patch...if its running through wine you wouldnt have to worry about malware even if it was infected...Jun 19 22:12
DaemonXPthey probably silently revised it at some point with a new version of SecuROMJun 19 22:12
DaemonXPand I happen to have that discJun 19 22:12
*freferfrefref (i=8258be83@gateway/web/freenode/x-5084036544e74b0b) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 22:13
_GoblinIm sure if you own the original, its not really an issue to "hack" it with one of those dodgy patches....Jun 19 22:13
DaemonXPit detects Wine as a debugger and crashes the installerJun 19 22:13
*freferfrefref has quit (Client Quit)Jun 19 22:13
DaemonXPthe patches only help if you can install it in the first placeJun 19 22:13
DaemonXPwhich is not a problem in WindowsJun 19 22:13
_Goblinah..Jun 19 22:13
_GoblinI was a fan of the game on the 360...Jun 19 22:14
_Goblinnever had those issues.Jun 19 22:14
DaemonXPwell, the 360 is its own DRMJun 19 22:14
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 22:14
_Goblintrue...Jun 19 22:14
_Goblintalking of which you've reminded me how good it was...Jun 19 22:14
_Goblinmight boot up Oblivion over the weekendJun 19 22:14
_GoblinMorrowind was better though.Jun 19 22:15
DaemonXPuhhmJun 19 22:15
DaemonXPnot reallyJun 19 22:15
_Goblinharder, but better.Jun 19 22:15
DaemonXPthe controls on the PC version suckedJun 19 22:15
DaemonXPthey improved considerably in OblivionJun 19 22:15
_Goblinthe armor and weapons meant something in Morrowind...Jun 19 22:15
_Goblinin Oblivion it was all too easy to get.Jun 19 22:15
DaemonXPyeah, that's how I won the origional OblivionJun 19 22:15
DaemonXPsaved right before pulling the sigil stonesJun 19 22:16
DaemonXPand reloaded til I pulled a chameleon stoneJun 19 22:16
DaemonXPthen fused it with my armor til I had 100% chamelonJun 19 22:16
_Goblindaedric armor?Jun 19 22:16
DaemonXPand then snuck up on the demigod dude and stabbed him to deathJun 19 22:16
DaemonXPwith no resistanceJun 19 22:16
DaemonXPthat was too easyJun 19 22:16
DaemonXPI didn't even really cheat and yet I may as well haveJun 19 22:17
_Goblinthe other thing I didnt like about Oblivion was that the cities were new instants...Jun 19 22:17
DaemonXPoh, and his bodyguards are immortal so before you kill him, kill them and one has a ringJun 19 22:17
_GoblinMorrowind it was all the same plane...Jun 19 22:17
DaemonXPit's wortth 50,000 goldJun 19 22:17
DaemonXPso kill him and take the ring as many times as you wantJun 19 22:17
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 22:17
DaemonXPhe can't see you so he just runs back into the room and stands thereJun 19 22:18
DaemonXPplus you get XP for every time you kill himJun 19 22:19
DaemonXPso your skills go upJun 19 22:19
DaemonXPthere's no end to leveling but there are limits to your skillsJun 19 22:19
DaemonXPeventually if they go too high they overflow and start at 0Jun 19 22:19
DaemonXPbut that takes outright cheatingJun 19 22:20
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 22:20
DaemonXPit's possible through cheating to damage your profile to where you can't undo the cheats and go back to the normal progression of the gameJun 19 22:20
DaemonXPschestowitz: Best Buy apparently has Mandriva Powerpack againJun 19 22:24
DaemonXPin the storeJun 19 22:24
DaemonXPit's $68 thoughJun 19 22:24
DaemonXPyou can get 2 download editions straight from Mandriva for thatJun 19 22:24
DaemonXPif you don't mind the manuals missing and the pretty box and discsJun 19 22:25
DaemonXP:PJun 19 22:25
DaemonXPtheir powerpack lacks a lot of what used to make buying it worth itJun 19 22:26
DaemonXPit used to have encoders and decoders, drivers, and full versions of stuff like CedegaJun 19 22:26
DaemonXPnow it has a few decoders, some drivers, and trialwareJun 19 22:27
DaemonXPI got rid of my subscription when that started happeningJun 19 22:27
DaemonXPIf I have to download bootleg codecs either way, why pay for the premium version?Jun 19 22:27
schestowitzOnly 8% of the United States is Computer Literate < http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=only_8_of_the_united_states_is_computer_&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 >Jun 19 22:31
schestowitz"A while back, I posted my sour-puss opinion that the United States is doomed, period, by its collective ignorance. I concluded that America needs a Renaissance, and it isn't going to happen. I haven't seen anything to change my mind yet."Jun 19 22:31
DaemonXPmy mom can't use a computer and makes plenty of moneyJun 19 22:32
DaemonXPso it's not really a crippling limitation alwaysJun 19 22:32
neighborleehardly cripplingJun 19 22:34
neighborleebutJun 19 22:34
neighborleeyou should teach herJun 19 22:34
neighborleethat knowledge ,,could be very handy for her somedayJun 19 22:34
neighborlee:)i'd teach mine if she were alive.Jun 19 22:35
neighborleewihtout hesitationJun 19 22:35
neighborleeba anywayJun 19 22:35
DaemonXPI can't even have her remember how to LOG INJun 19 22:35
DaemonXPto the computerJun 19 22:35
DaemonXPmuch less get to her email boxJun 19 22:35
DaemonXPmuch less log into thatJun 19 22:35
neighborleehehJun 19 22:35
DaemonXPshe keeps asking me how to "make it go back" a pageJun 19 22:36
neighborleeoh dearJun 19 22:36
neighborlee:)Jun 19 22:36
DaemonXPshe's just a lost cause as far as anything technology-related goesJun 19 22:36
neighborleemay I ask where she makes all this moneyJun 19 22:36
DaemonXPI had to go work on her computer at work cause she was talking to the family of a potential resident (Catholic retirement home)Jun 19 22:36
DaemonXPand porn pop ups from spyware started coming up on her desktopJun 19 22:37
neighborleeahhhhJun 19 22:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] What is a Browser? < http://ping.fm/C43Yh > What people say...Jun 19 22:37
neighborleeEEKJun 19 22:37
DaemonXPWindows XPJun 19 22:37
DaemonXP:DJun 19 22:37
neighborleelolJun 19 22:37
DaemonXPshe's a nurseJun 19 22:37
neighborleenice..Jun 19 22:37
neighborleeI have a great friend who also is,,,IowaJun 19 22:38
DaemonXPthe assistant director of nursing  of the assisted living part of that retirement homeJun 19 22:38
DaemonXPso she's not stupidJun 19 22:38
DaemonXPI think it's just a mental blockJun 19 22:38
DaemonXPMandriva has some decent parental control software included btwJun 19 22:39
neighborleehardly stupidJun 19 22:40
DaemonXPI set it up on that computer I gave them so my brother can't get on anything he's not supposed toJun 19 22:40
neighborleeit no doubt isJun 19 22:40
neighborleeeasily fixed.Jun 19 22:40
neighborlee:)Jun 19 22:40
DaemonXPhe doesan't have the administrator passwordJun 19 22:40
DaemonXPI don't even think my mom remembers itJun 19 22:40
DaemonXP:PJun 19 22:40
DaemonXP*doesn'tJun 19 22:40
neighborlee:)Jun 19 22:40
DaemonXPhmmmmmmJun 19 22:40
DaemonXPWinamp embeds LAME 3.98Jun 19 22:41
DaemonXPbut they don't say it that wayJun 19 22:41
neighborleeforget winamp..why not  zimfJun 19 22:41
neighborleeshrugJun 19 22:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT: internal emails show UK MoD panicked over intel leaks and told BT to block WikiLeaks. contact wl-editor@wikileaks.org for an exclusiveJun 19 22:42
*_Mutex_ has quit ("Light travels faster then sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak")Jun 19 22:44
DaemonXPit says "Contains technology from MP3Dev"Jun 19 22:44
DaemonXPwhich was the name of Lame's old websiteJun 19 22:45
DaemonXPhttp://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4668/25321919.pngJun 19 22:45
DaemonXPlicensed from FhG and ThomsonJun 19 22:45
DaemonXPyeah, the same Thomson my dad worked for for yearsJun 19 22:46
DaemonXPowns most of the MP3 patentsJun 19 22:46
DaemonXPhe worked on their R&D stuff so he was always bringing home prototype stuff of whatever they were working onJun 19 22:47
DaemonXPhe got to take stuff home with him before it was out on the marketJun 19 22:47
DaemonXPso my first MP3 player was an RCA Lyra with a whopping 128 megs of storageJun 19 22:48
DaemonXPcould hold 4-5 CDs evenJun 19 22:48
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 22:48
neighborleeno wonder you like mp3 ? ;)Jun 19 22:48
DaemonXPif you encoded them to 64k anywayJun 19 22:48
DaemonXP:DJun 19 22:48
neighborleenothing against it per se..I tend to gravitate to started out ossJun 19 22:48
DaemonXPfirst generation techJun 19 22:48
neighborleeyeahJun 19 22:48
neighborleeI still think you should inch your mom over to tech. ;))Jun 19 22:49
DaemonXPLAME V2 will store about 2,000 CDsJun 19 22:49
DaemonXPon a 160 gigs Zune/iPodJun 19 22:49
DaemonXPeven at V0 you still have room for 1500Jun 19 22:50
neighborleeyou and my friend and her dain M$ stuff..I could strangel herJun 19 22:50
neighborleestrangleJun 19 22:50
neighborleelolJun 19 22:50
neighborleeshe has zune atm,,oh and her new iphone itouchJun 19 22:50
neighborleewall to wall tech :)lolJun 19 22:51
DaemonXPI tried one of the 8 gig ZunesJun 19 22:51
neighborleeoh and her wii, wiifit and ps2 ;)Jun 19 22:51
DaemonXPI wasn't terribly impressedJun 19 22:51
DaemonXPit wan't terrible, but it was about 4-5 times more than it should costJun 19 22:51
DaemonXPif you go with Sandisk stuffJun 19 22:51
neighborleeim not sure she really likes hers either..itouch she does I thinkJun 19 22:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Corel is still helping Windows after it signed a MS deal that derailed Linux/Wine http://ping.fm/Z3cSwJun 19 22:52
schestowitz"Of course, if the office users are comfortable with Linux then OpenOffice is another free option."Jun 19 22:52
DaemonXPiPod is flat out junkJun 19 22:53
schestowitzThe AstroTurf against BN has risen a lot recently, which means we do wellJun 19 22:53
DaemonXP$300 and still has almost no jitter protectionJun 19 22:53
DaemonXPit skips whenever you bump itJun 19 22:53
neighborleeschestowitz, :)Jun 19 22:54
neighborleeDaemonXP, ouchJun 19 22:54
schestowitz James Gaskin: "ASUS Eee PC now comes with XP options on almost every model, but the sales momentum is swinging to larger, more established PC vendors"Jun 19 22:54
schestowitzYes,cause they don't want itJun 19 22:54
schestowitzOverpriced, lousy, needs AV..Jun 19 22:54
schestowitzMicrosoft is just ruining the h/w market now, tiooJun 19 22:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Cannot find the Bilski patent application on the USPTO website, or even on Google. Patent applications are from 2001, Bilski was 1997. WTF?Jun 19 22:57
DaemonXPthe Zune at least has decent anti-skip on their hard drive playersJun 19 23:08
DaemonXPI really do like the flash memory a lot better thoughJun 19 23:08
DaemonXPI just encode to V0 and if I need more memory I'll buy another SD cardJun 19 23:09
DaemonXPit's no big dealJun 19 23:09
DaemonXPI'd rather have the better qualityJun 19 23:09
_GoblinThe Zune is good as long as you didn't rely on it this new years eve...by all accounts it was a bit of a party pooper.Jun 19 23:11
DaemonXPlmaoJun 19 23:11
_Goblinthat and nobody else seems to want it.Jun 19 23:11
DaemonXP3..2..1..BSOD!!!!Jun 19 23:11
DaemonXPHAPPY NEW YEAR!!!Jun 19 23:11
DaemonXPthe Chinese are apparently safeJun 19 23:11
DaemonXPand the JewsJun 19 23:11
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 23:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Linux Mint has done that for me, so I really want to say THANK YOU to Linux Mint Staff and Users" http://ping.fm/sPHzuJun 19 23:12
DaemonXPthey just get to the middle of the year and the thing won't work one dayJun 19 23:12
_Goblinanyone got an ipod?Jun 19 23:12
DaemonXPI used toJun 19 23:12
DaemonXPgarbageJun 19 23:12
DaemonXPit was one of the 160 gig iPod videosJun 19 23:12
_Goblinsorry, no I meant thats what would have been said on new years eve.Jun 19 23:12
DaemonXP5th genJun 19 23:12
DaemonXPgot rid of it almost right after getting it tooJun 19 23:12
DaemonXPahhhJun 19 23:13
schestowitzWages decline over time despite deflation: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/3825536/Jun 19 23:13
_Goblinthank the lord for par2Jun 19 23:13
_Goblinjust fixed a series of .rarJun 19 23:13
*DaemonXP hates RAR with a passionJun 19 23:14
_Goblinwhy?Jun 19 23:14
_Goblinstaple diet of the binaries.Jun 19 23:14
DaemonXPcause it's proprietary, highly susceptible to damage, and the compression ratios aren't even that greatJun 19 23:15
DaemonXP7zip is far betterJun 19 23:15
trmancoto be more precise, they suckJun 19 23:15
DaemonXP7zip with LZMA is what I useJun 19 23:15
trmancothe compressions ratiosJun 19 23:15
_Goblinthis is where I disagree with RMS.  There is room for proprietary and the right tools for the right job is what is important....Jun 19 23:15
trmancoyepJun 19 23:15
_Goblinrar may have issues....like I say though, thank the lord for Par2Jun 19 23:16
DaemonXP7zip is pretty well supportedJun 19 23:16
DaemonXPand doesn't require you to pay to use itJun 19 23:16
_Goblintrue, although alt.binaries seems to favor .rarJun 19 23:16
_Goblinin the main.Jun 19 23:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CA Pushes Linux On Mainframes http://ping.fm/UGe5M Interesting because CA is in Microsoft's pocketJun 19 23:17
_Goblinany before anyone asks, I am downloading Amiga Soundtracker collections....no copyright issues.Jun 19 23:17
_Goblin*andJun 19 23:17
DaemonXPI don't really have a preference for MP3, but it has a simplicity that other codecs really just don'tJun 19 23:19
_GoblinIm d/l .mod collections...Jun 19 23:19
DaemonXPmost of the technical improvements Vorbis provides are in areas nobody has any reason to care aboutJun 19 23:19
_Goblintrue...Jun 19 23:19
DaemonXPwhy the hell would you want 96 Khz sampling in a lossy codec?Jun 19 23:20
DaemonXPIf you're that anal, you don't even want a lossy codecJun 19 23:20
_Goblinhowever, I can see vorbis going like the DivX/Xvid wars....Jun 19 23:20
_GoblinI dont think there is any doubt Xvid won that battle.Jun 19 23:20
DaemonXP96 Khz sampling would just cause Vorbis to encode a lot more bits you won't hearJun 19 23:20
DaemonXPand eat more storage spacJun 19 23:20
DaemonXP*spaceJun 19 23:20
DaemonXP20.5 Khz sampling is more than sufficientJun 19 23:21
_GoblinI'll take your word on that...appart from starting to encode my record collection (and then giving up) Ive had little experience with the whole sound encoding world....Jun 19 23:21
DaemonXPthe one part of Vorbis that I do think is a genuine improvement still doesn't help you a whole lotJun 19 23:21
DaemonXPit can go down to 8kbps where MP3 can only go down to 32kbpsJun 19 23:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz CA is in CA's pocket. they don't like MS any more than anyone else of that era.Jun 19 23:22
DaemonXPso passages of near or total silence will be encoded with less bitsJun 19 23:22
DaemonXPbut hat will save you at most, a few kilobytes per trackJun 19 23:22
DaemonXPwhich is not significantJun 19 23:22
_Goblinunless your collection is huge..then it may make a differenceJun 19 23:22
_Goblinit all adds up.Jun 19 23:23
DaemonXPunless they do something stupid like make a track have 2 minutes of silence to "surprise" you with a hidden trackJun 19 23:23
_GoblinShake your money maker - BlackcrowesJun 19 23:23
_Goblinhidden track at the end after period of silence...Jun 19 23:23
DaemonXPSeether - Karma And EffectJun 19 23:23
DaemonXPPlastic Man goes to silence at 3:48Jun 19 23:24
DaemonXPthe track ends at 8:47Jun 19 23:24
_GoblinI also think "Bitter sweets to suck you by" - Cradle of Filth has a long period of silence at the end...Jun 19 23:24
DaemonXPthats also where Constant Bitrate gets uglyJun 19 23:25
DaemonXPCBR 320 for 5 minutes of silence......coolJun 19 23:26
DaemonXP:DJun 19 23:26
_Goblinappart from a lossless format, Ive never heard Cradle of Filth or Rotting Christ encode without horrible distortion.Jun 19 23:26
DaemonXPtry LAME V 0Jun 19 23:26
_Goblindeath metal = incompatible with encoding...IMOJun 19 23:26
DaemonXPI can never tell the differenceJun 19 23:26
_Goblinmaybe death metal is the new DRM?Jun 19 23:26
DaemonXPheh, make it require so much storage to get it rightJun 19 23:27
DaemonXPthat nobody will bother?Jun 19 23:27
DaemonXPI've thought of that beforeJun 19 23:27
_GoblinlolJun 19 23:27
_Goblinno.Jun 19 23:27
DaemonXP01 - I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That).mp3Jun 19 23:28
DaemonXP21.6 MBJun 19 23:28
DaemonXPas Lame V 0Jun 19 23:28
_Goblinoh dear..Jun 19 23:28
_GoblinI think Lame is the operative wordJun 19 23:28
DaemonXPnopeJun 19 23:28
DaemonXPit's doing greatJun 19 23:28
_GoblinMeat Loaf...Jun 19 23:28
_Goblinoh dear.Jun 19 23:28
DaemonXP01 - I'd Do Anything For Love (But I Won't Do That).flacJun 19 23:29
DaemonXP75.3 MBJun 19 23:29
DaemonXPit is 12 minutes long thoughJun 19 23:29
_Goblinyou can chop 6 minutes off for starters....Jun 19 23:29
_Goblinthat song drags on....Jun 19 23:30
DaemonXPheheJun 19 23:30
DaemonXPDaft PunkJun 19 23:30
DaemonXP:PJun 19 23:30
_GoblinId do anything for love except have to listen to the full 12 minutes of that track.Jun 19 23:30
_Goblinsorry if I am insulting your music taste...each to their own.Jun 19 23:31
DaemonXP01 - 05 Around the World _ Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.mp3 11.7 MB as LAME V0Jun 19 23:32
_GoblinAround the world?Jun 19 23:32
DaemonXP01 - 05 Around the World _ Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.mp3 41.7 MBJun 19 23:32
_Goblinis that the band or the album?Jun 19 23:32
DaemonXPerrrJun 19 23:32
DaemonXPsecond one is the FLACJun 19 23:32
DaemonXPhehJun 19 23:33
DaemonXPHarder, Better, Faster, StrongerJun 19 23:33
DaemonXPevenJun 19 23:33
DaemonXP01 - Human After All.mp3 - 10.9 MB LAME V 0Jun 19 23:35
DaemonXP01 - Human After All.flac - 37.7 MBJun 19 23:35
DaemonXPso Lame V 0 gives you 1/3rd to 1/4th the size of FLAC usuallyJun 19 23:35
DaemonXPand probably around 1/6th to 1/8th the size of the raw PCM streamJun 19 23:36
_Goblinthis chap has had some good results with flac.  Intelligent guy.... http://tinyurl.com/bqqrvxJun 19 23:36
DaemonXPLossyFLACJun 19 23:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Yikes....... A call for some Ubuntu SE users to nag Canonical... "If you would like to complain about this..." http://ping.fm/YwHRgJun 19 23:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: MPs' expenses run through experimental Cleanfeed filter http://notnews.today.com/?p=532Jun 19 23:37
schestowitz"Please stop to play stupid man. Ubuntu is registered and noone is allowed to make what he want with name and logo. Is it so difficult to understand ?"Jun 19 23:37
DaemonXPWhenever You Need Somebody/01 - Never Gonna Give You Up.flac24 MBJun 19 23:37
DaemonXPB-)Jun 19 23:37
_Goblincouldnt resist...old joke I know....sorry.Jun 19 23:38
_GoblinRoy, wheres that quote from?Jun 19 23:38
*DaemonXP has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 19 23:43
*DaemonXP (n=none@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 19 23:43
DaemonXP05 - Remember.mp3 -9.06 MB / 05 - Remember.flac 29.4 MBJun 19 23:44
DaemonXPDisturbed :DJun 19 23:44
DaemonXPyeah, you can encode metal and get decent resultsJun 19 23:44
_GoblinmmmJun 19 23:44
_Goblinnot convinced....Jun 19 23:44
DaemonXPit'll just be at or near 320k through most of the trackJun 19 23:44
_GoblinI am a fan of German Death Metal....a couple of the cd's Ive bought which are rare, Ive tried to encode in order to backup....Jun 19 23:45
DaemonXPthere's very little of a track like that that pushes beyond what MP3 can deliverJun 19 23:45
_Goblinunless its lossless ive found the results mixed...Jun 19 23:45
DaemonXPyou may be talking about 1-2% of the track in 1 second passagesJun 19 23:45
DaemonXPand even then it probably doesn't need to go much over 320kJun 19 23:45
_GoblinCryptic Carnage - No go.  Haggard - Mixed results... Tristania - No go.Jun 19 23:46
_Goblinthere are a few bands Ive tried....not good enough.Jun 19 23:46
DaemonXPthose albums push LAME/MP3 but they don't kill itJun 19 23:46
DaemonXPyou can also use encoder tricks to make it allocate the bits differentlyJun 19 23:46
DaemonXPif you know for sure the encoder is wrongJun 19 23:46
_GoblinIts too much trouble....I just do a straight CD copy and use it as a backup.Jun 19 23:47
DaemonXPsetting the lowpass filter to 19.7 Khz can usually do itJun 19 23:47
DaemonXPbut overall it's better to let LAME decideJun 19 23:47
DaemonXPLame is a lot better than it used to beJun 19 23:47
_Goblinand my records loose their charm when encoded...its the vynl or nothing!Jun 19 23:47
DaemonXPalways been better than reference encoderJun 19 23:47
DaemonXPmetal just has a broader range of frequencies than most samplesJun 19 23:48
DaemonXPso lossy encoders will have a harder time dealing with itJun 19 23:48
DaemonXPwhich is the furthest towards making a acase for AAC or Vorbis I've heardJun 19 23:48
DaemonXP(AAC caps at 400k and Vorbis at 500k)Jun 19 23:49
_Goblinto be honest, I dont think I could be bothered to encode my collection even if I was happy with the results....Jun 19 23:49
trmancohttp://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/42920/118/Jun 19 23:49
_GoblinI have thousands of CD's and my record collection is massive.Jun 19 23:49
_Goblinour study is dedicated virtually to my music.Jun 19 23:50
DaemonXPhigh bitrate VBR MP3 sufficiently represents most types of music to most listeners, with most equipmentJun 19 23:50
DaemonXPand stores 8 CDs worth in the space of 1Jun 19 23:51
DaemonXPthat's the entire pointJun 19 23:51
DaemonXPit does its jobJun 19 23:51
DaemonXPI was horrified back when MS was saying you could just encode to 64k WMA and get good resultsJun 19 23:51
_Goblinor you can simply backup the cd with a cd to cd copy and store it in the same case as the original.Jun 19 23:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Born to be kissed. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/8226.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/522224.htmlJun 19 23:52
DaemonXPthat is what I doJun 19 23:52
DaemonXPMP3 is just a convenience so I can have a local copy on my hard diskJun 19 23:52
DaemonXPand not lug around 500 CDs with meJun 19 23:52
DaemonXP:)Jun 19 23:52
DaemonXPeventually storage will be good enough to just put everything on your portable in FLAC or other lossless formatsJun 19 23:54
DaemonXPand not think twiceJun 19 23:54
DaemonXPpeople who bought all their music in MP3 will be kicking themselvesJun 19 23:54
DaemonXP:PJun 19 23:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Transform Kubuntu Jaunty to Vista7 In 3 Simple Steps http://ping.fm/lCM4JJun 19 23:57
DaemonXP05 - Violence Fetish.mp3Jun 19 23:57
DaemonXPheheJun 19 23:57
_GoblinIve got to read that link....Jun 19 23:59

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