| oiaohm | http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-10274477-62.html Nice report on Oracle the invisable power house. | Jun 30 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| oiaohm | http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/43017/135/ Nice question how long will encryption last now. | Jun 30 00:08 |
| cj | schestowitz: aw, a tribute to me! | Jun 30 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/29/407 This is good Linux Kernel Developers point of view of real time scanning. | Jun 30 00:21 |
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| ugufjhfj | lol http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/151215 | Jun 30 00:31 |
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| oiaohm | Read the comments. | Jun 30 00:51 |
| oiaohm | All the ones pro boycott novell back themselves up with facts ugufjhfj | Jun 30 00:51 |
| oiaohm | All the ones anti boycott novell are just insulting. | Jun 30 00:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Examples of Questionable Press Coverage http://ping.fm/WYKa1 | Jun 30 00:57 | |
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| schestowitz | gn | Jun 30 01:11 |
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| oiaohm | Hi _Hicham_ | Jun 30 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | hi oiaohm | Jun 30 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | howdy? | Jun 30 01:20 |
| oiaohm | http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/29/407 The real-time scanning support is still progressing for Linux. | Jun 30 01:21 |
| _Goblin | gn all, thats me done too.... | Jun 30 01:21 |
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| oiaohm | http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/06/kde-43-plasma-overview-screencast.html kde 4.3 is looking nice. | Jun 30 01:24 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : I don't know why, but I never liked KDE | Jun 30 01:26 |
| _Hicham_ | I am always in love with the polished look of GNOME and its API | Jun 30 01:27 |
| oiaohm | I started off with Gnome and ended up on KDE. | Jun 30 01:28 |
| tabletop | does gnome have C# code in it ? | Jun 30 01:29 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : did u code for both GNOME and KDE? | Jun 30 01:30 |
| oiaohm | More often than not I don't code for either. | Jun 30 01:31 |
| oiaohm | QT has always been nice cross platform. | Jun 30 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Gnome core is not .net compadible tabletop. C# applications are just surface bits. | Jun 30 01:32 |
| _Hicham_ | GTK model is stronger than QT | Jun 30 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | GTK is C | Jun 30 01:33 |
| _Hicham_ | QT is C++ | Jun 30 01:33 |
| oiaohm | QT looks decent on Windows and Mac. | Jun 30 01:34 |
| oiaohm | C++ does not worry me. | Jun 30 01:35 |
| oiaohm | GTK is gobject so can be just as much fun as C++ at times. | Jun 30 01:35 |
| oiaohm | GTK was never designed with the idea of using platform native dialogs. | Jun 30 01:36 |
| tabletop | non fully OOP and lack of TYPE-Safe is an issue, plus buffer overflows and globals. | Jun 30 01:37 |
| oiaohm | Type safe with GTK can be dealt with by using the preprocessor for gcc Linux kernel developers use. | Jun 30 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Type safe issues are just a complier issue. | Jun 30 01:40 |
| tabletop | good, because the lack of it, if not applied is a significant security issue. | Jun 30 01:40 |
| tabletop | its actually a language issue, | Jun 30 01:40 |
| oiaohm | No its a complier issue. | Jun 30 01:40 |
| tabletop | java is type-safe | Jun 30 01:40 |
| tabletop | ok, whatever | Jun 30 01:41 |
| oiaohm | C complier can choose if it does type checks or not. | Jun 30 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Gcc choose by default not. | Jun 30 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Rebuild the same C code with a C++ complier it gets typechecked. | Jun 30 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Buffer overflow detection is also complier. | Jun 30 01:42 |
| tabletop | type checking and type-safe are not the same thing | Jun 30 01:42 |
| tabletop | but y ou know that right | Jun 30 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Type-safe and buffer protection are both complier options. C does not demard in Language define that they be provide. But does not block them from being applied either. | Jun 30 01:43 |
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| _Hicham_ | there is GTKmm | Jun 30 01:44 |
| _Hicham_ | which is type-safe | Jun 30 01:44 |
| tabletop | if they are compiler options, then they are not safe as you are able to turn them off, and most to | Jun 30 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | if u want type safety | Jun 30 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | the main reason why we wrote GTK in C is performance | Jun 30 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | and it is proven | Jun 30 01:45 |
| _Hicham_ | GNOME performs better than KDE | Jun 30 01:45 |
| oiaohm | Gcc is a sucky C++ complier. | Jun 30 01:46 |
| tabletop | "Programming languages that are type-safe are more secure from certain exploits, such as buffer overflows." | Jun 30 01:46 |
| tabletop | "Without type safety, program data is just a big ocean of bits. The program can grab any arbitrary handful of bits and interpret it in limitless ways—regardless of the original purpose of the data. For example, if the string "GARY" were placed into memory, it could later be used not as text, but as a 32-bit integer, 0x47415259 (or, in decimal, 1,195,463,257—a rather large number indeed!). When data supplied by an ext | Jun 30 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Type-safe only blocks some flaws. | Jun 30 01:46 |
| tabletop | yes, ofcourse it only stops some flaws. | Jun 30 01:47 |
| oiaohm | http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/devel/sparse/ sparse used by Linux kernel can hunt down in C code lot more differnet classes of flaws. | Jun 30 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Like the nasty dead lock. | Jun 30 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Idea that using a type-safe language makes much difference is one of the biggest jokes going. | Jun 30 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Using good tools with C equal results are produced. | Jun 30 01:48 |
| _Hicham_ | and C programs perform better than C++ ones | Jun 30 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Wrong _Hicham_ | Jun 30 01:49 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : why? | Jun 30 01:50 |
| tabletop | yes, you can write both very good and very bad code in C or any language for that matter, just some languages are more inherently safer by design, they dont use pointers, globals and have safe type casting and buffer management | Jun 30 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | C++ adds more overhead | Jun 30 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Pure performance difference between C++ and C with gcc is based on how well gcc processes each language. | Jun 30 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | C lets you do all of ur checks | Jun 30 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things like cout should be solved out. | Jun 30 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | the compiler doesn't do much for u | Jun 30 01:50 |
| _Hicham_ | cout is a great utility | Jun 30 01:50 |
| oiaohm | You can write bad code using safetype as well. | Jun 30 01:51 |
| _Hicham_ | agree | Jun 30 01:51 |
| tabletop | ofcourse you can, as i said, any language, its just harder on some and easier on other to create bad code. | Jun 30 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Its not harder its simpler in fact. | Jun 30 01:51 |
| oiaohm | One of the most common problems you find in .net and java is allocation bleed. | Jun 30 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Why objects remain linked to something still in use when they are no longer required. | Jun 30 01:52 |
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| _Hicham_ | Garbage collection just fails sometimes | Jun 30 01:53 |
| oiaohm | Then developers using type safe language believes the story that is safer and does not do as much checking. | Jun 30 01:53 |
| _Hicham_ | reference counting doesn't always work | Jun 30 01:53 |
| oiaohm | Like using items like sparse. | Jun 30 01:53 |
| amarsh04_ | hmm... dsl dropped (power glitch) | Jun 30 01:54 |
| oiaohm | Simply skipping over correctly validating a user can create a security whole. | Jun 30 01:54 |
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| oiaohm | Or skipping over protecting sql code. | Jun 30 01:54 |
| oiaohm | There are a mountain of holes over than just buffer overflows. | Jun 30 01:55 |
| oiaohm | And items corrected by type safety. | Jun 30 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Big difference C and C++ programmers know straight up theres can leak. | Jun 30 01:56 |
| tabletop | yes, there are globals, pointers, poor code, exploits, bugs and exploits | Jun 30 01:56 |
| oiaohm | pointers with protections provided by compliers are not much of a risk. | Jun 30 01:56 |
| tabletop | no language is perfect, but some are better than others. | Jun 30 01:56 |
| oiaohm | globals can be done in any language just different ways. | Jun 30 01:56 |
| oiaohm | Correct no language is perfect. | Jun 30 01:57 |
| oiaohm | Every one has its unique defects. | Jun 30 01:57 |
| oiaohm | When using it you should be using tools that counter it. | Jun 30 01:57 |
| oiaohm | So there should really not been any difference in quality of code produced from a good developer no matter the language used. | Jun 30 01:58 |
| tabletop | before you rely on tools, you start by doing it right yourself in the first place, good coders dont rely on their tools to correct bad programming practices | Jun 30 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Good coders know they are human. | Jun 30 01:59 |
| oiaohm | No matter how good you are human error will creep in. | Jun 30 01:59 |
| tabletop | yes, so they know that they cannot just rely on tools to correct their errors, good programmers know that all too well | Jun 30 01:59 |
| oiaohm | But will rely on tools that block known defects in the language. | Jun 30 02:00 |
| oiaohm | So reducing there risk of errors. | Jun 30 02:00 |
| tabletop | yes, good coders rely on both, their own skills and the tools, and peer review | Jun 30 02:00 |
| oiaohm | The type safe bit and buffer overflows with C purefully falls under not using right tools to prevent it. | Jun 30 02:01 |
| oiaohm | So coders having those faults really should be kicked. The tools to deal with both have existed for over 20 years. | Jun 30 02:02 |
| tabletop | "Although buffer-overflow bugs are not confined to C and C++ code, the C and C++ programming languages make it difficult to ensure safe coding practices. The languages are not type-safe (discussed later in this chapter), use built-in functions that can overflow buffers, and are difficult to debug." | Jun 30 02:02 |
| oiaohm | What book did you pull that from. | Jun 30 02:03 |
| tabletop | "rootkits" subverting the windows kernel | Jun 30 02:04 |
| oiaohm | pgroup complier removed those problems back in the 1980~. Lot of other tools have appeared since. | Jun 30 02:04 |
| oiaohm | MSVC has not been what you call the best quality complier. | Jun 30 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Its not the language alone. It also the quality of tools used with it. | Jun 30 02:05 |
| tabletop | we still have all these problems today, so what happend in the 1980's did not work ! | Jun 30 02:05 |
| oiaohm | No | Jun 30 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Simple people have been not using good quality tools. | Jun 30 02:06 |
| oiaohm | So it keep on happening. | Jun 30 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Stuff developed in the 1980~ does detect those flaws. | Jun 30 02:06 |
| tabletop | buts its 2009 and we still have them !! | Jun 30 02:07 |
| tabletop | "The adoption of type-safe languages (such as Java and C#) would nearly eliminate the risk of buffer overflows. Although a type-safe language is not guaranteed to be secure, it significantly reduces the risks of buffer overflows, sign-conversion bugs, and integer overflows | Jun 30 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Changing to java and C# does not prevent them. | Jun 30 02:07 |
| oiaohm | to be correct C# in unsafe mode can cause a buffer overflow. | Jun 30 02:08 |
| oiaohm | C# is not 100 percent protected from being a buffer overflow source. | Jun 30 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Its 2009 we still have them because compliers we use sux. | Jun 30 02:09 |
| tabletop | thats why it says "nearly" eliminate. | Jun 30 02:09 |
| oiaohm | One of the biggest cause with gcc is lack of whole program optimisation. | Jun 30 02:09 |
| oiaohm | If your program is just a single source file gcc does a really good job at hunting down buffer overflow events when building. | Jun 30 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Gcc also supports the tech based off ibm propolice to detect and stop the program having a bufferoverflow at runtime. | Jun 30 02:10 |
| oiaohm | So bufferover flow being a exploit should not be happining. | Jun 30 02:11 |
| tabletop | and there is lint too, but no tools are perfect, but code can be. | Jun 30 02:11 |
| oiaohm | lint also is lacking in whole program scanning at depth. | Jun 30 02:12 |
| tabletop | exactly, no tools are perfect, they just help. | Jun 30 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Tools can move C and C++ to the same level of safe as C# | Jun 30 02:13 |
| oiaohm | To be correct past what .net offers. | Jun 30 02:13 |
| tabletop | I dont believe they can, C is a very low level language, it allowes you to do many t hings, that flexibility also allowes you room to write bad or insecure code and the compiler and lint wont say a word about it, thats the power and disadvantage of C. | Jun 30 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Major difference in buffer overflow event detection between pgroup complier and gcc is that pgroup does whole program searches for defects. | Jun 30 02:15 |
| tabletop | you can have high level and low level control flexibility and have an inherently safe development platform at the same time. | Jun 30 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Flexablity of C# also allow many bad things. | Jun 30 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Just by enabling unsafe mode. | Jun 30 02:16 |
| tabletop | so why does everyone use GCC and not pgroup ? | Jun 30 02:16 |
| oiaohm | So enabling pointers so enabling every defect C has without the pointer auditing. | Jun 30 02:16 |
| oiaohm | pgroup is commerical tabletop | Jun 30 02:16 |
| tabletop | C# and java force OOP that eliminates many holes right there. | Jun 30 02:17 |
| oiaohm | C# can have that disabled. | Jun 30 02:17 |
| oiaohm | C# is not magical. | Jun 30 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Should never be used as an example of a pure safe language. | Jun 30 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Its not. | Jun 30 02:17 |
| tabletop | c# with OOP disabled would be C++ or C right !! :) | Jun 30 02:17 |
| oiaohm | unsafe mode. | Jun 30 02:18 |
| tabletop | and sure its not magical, but like java its a part of comp sci evolution. | Jun 30 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Of C# turns most of its safeties off. | Jun 30 02:18 |
| oiaohm | It no longer even warns when building. | Jun 30 02:18 |
| oiaohm | So putting it way behind gcc in application building. | Jun 30 02:19 |
| tabletop | it still forces OOP and type-safe programming, which is by itself very safe method of development. | Jun 30 02:19 |
| oiaohm | If you don't enable unsafe mode. | Jun 30 02:19 |
| tabletop | I acutally rather use C myself | Jun 30 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Java you could use of an agurment about a safe language. | Jun 30 02:19 |
| oiaohm | It don't have a unsafemode. | Jun 30 02:20 |
| tabletop | I dont have any unsafe modes on any of my development platforms or compilers | Jun 30 02:20 |
| oiaohm | C# has a unsafe mode. | Jun 30 02:21 |
| tabletop | never seen it, and would never use it if I did. sounds kinda stupid | Jun 30 02:21 |
| oiaohm | That enabled pointers. | Jun 30 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Used in mono interface libraries. | Jun 30 02:21 |
| tabletop | "I think ill write this program in 'unsafe' mode for some excitment" who would do that ? | Jun 30 02:21 |
| oiaohm | You are using it. | Jun 30 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Its how C# interfaces back to native OS. | Jun 30 02:21 |
| tabletop | c# and java use an intermediate interpreter to form a layer between the bytecode and the cpu/os | Jun 30 02:23 |
| oiaohm | The wrappers of C# are written in C# | Jun 30 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Java you are right with not C# | Jun 30 02:23 |
| tabletop | C# uses one too the JIT | Jun 30 02:24 |
| oiaohm | JIT can still use pointers directed by bytecode. | Jun 30 02:24 |
| oiaohm | That can be exploited. | Jun 30 02:24 |
| oiaohm | JIT is not magical tabletop | Jun 30 02:24 |
| _Hicham_ | C# introduced confusion with its pointers | Jun 30 02:24 |
| tabletop | I know its not, but it is what it is, its a layer beteen the bytecode and teh OS, just like the one in java. | Jun 30 02:25 |
| tabletop | there is not much in computers that are magical IMHO | Jun 30 02:25 |
| oiaohm | Java bytecode has no means to use pointers. | Jun 30 02:25 |
| tabletop | thats right, its an OOP langage | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | It was designed that way. | Jun 30 02:26 |
| tabletop | thats right | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | C# was designed with means to use pointers. | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | So its no better really than C | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | only difference is having to use a special mode to use pointers. | Jun 30 02:26 |
| tabletop | you dont use pointers in C# | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | You can tabletop | Jun 30 02:26 |
| oiaohm | it is in the language. | Jun 30 02:26 |
| tabletop | mabey you can, but you dont. | Jun 30 02:27 |
| oiaohm | The interface libs that you programs depend on use it. | Jun 30 02:27 |
| oiaohm | You can code with C++ and not use raw pointers either. | Jun 30 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Before calling a language safe you should check exactly what it can and cannot do. | Jun 30 02:28 |
| oiaohm | C# can do a lot more than most people think. | Jun 30 02:28 |
| oiaohm | So its no where near as safe as most people think. | Jun 30 02:28 |
| _Hicham_ | Pointers are a great way to improve speed | Jun 30 02:29 |
| tabletop | I know you can use pointers in C++ or C you can even use Assembly in C so you can do anything you damn well please, I agree with you entirely. | Jun 30 02:29 |
| oiaohm | Add # | Jun 30 02:29 |
| oiaohm | as well. | Jun 30 02:29 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what about auto pointers? | Jun 30 02:29 |
| oiaohm | C# comparing to java for safety is one of the biggest .net lies. | Jun 30 02:30 |
| tabletop | Its just some programming methods are more secure by their design and by not employing methods and techniques known to be problematic such as buffer overflows and globals, its what computer science does, its what all science does, it advances its art. | Jun 30 02:30 |
| tabletop | Hickman, yes, pointers are very powerfull, and C is perfect for fast and efficient code, it cant be beat. | Jun 30 02:31 |
| _Hicham_ | no programming language is secure by design | Jun 30 02:32 |
| tabletop | there is nothing you can do in C# or java that you cannot do in C | Jun 30 02:32 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no secure design | Jun 30 02:32 |
| _Hicham_ | till now | Jun 30 02:32 |
| oiaohm | C# can do everything C can. | Jun 30 02:32 |
| oiaohm | By its design. | Jun 30 02:32 |
| oiaohm | Bar speed. | Jun 30 02:32 |
| tabletop | THats true, none are secure by design, | Jun 30 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : maybe on Windows | Jun 30 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | the Mono libs are not perfect yet | Jun 30 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | all they do is wrap GNOME and KDE libs | Jun 30 02:33 |
| oiaohm | C# was designed to allow drivers to be coded in it. | Jun 30 02:33 |
| oiaohm | When interfacing with hardware you have to handle raw pointers from time to time. | Jun 30 02:34 |
| _Hicham_ | u can't do a driver without raw pointers | Jun 30 02:34 |
| oiaohm | Due to hardware designs some of them you have to leap of faith with raw pointers. | Jun 30 02:35 |
| oiaohm | Problem here tools for tracking down pointer issues don't exist in .net langauge development tools. | Jun 30 02:36 |
| oiaohm | tabletop: I know what C# can and cannot do. Too well. | Jun 30 02:37 |
| tabletop | it sounds like it, its interesting to read that you can do all the low level stuff with it, ive not tried that yet. | Jun 30 02:38 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : I don't think that it is a good idea to write a driver in C# | Jun 30 02:38 |
| tabletop | Im trying to remember back to some ISA bus drivers I wrote and how I did it, | Jun 30 02:38 |
| _Hicham_ | tabletop : using C ? | Jun 30 02:39 |
| oiaohm | That it can do that low level stuff in its byte code if its bytecode is ever damaged it could still do it. | Jun 30 02:39 |
| tabletop | no, using "LabVIEW" actually. | Jun 30 02:39 |
| tabletop | I think it was a seriies of registers at a starting addres, | Jun 30 02:39 |
| tabletop | labVIEW is the coolest language, and its available on Linux too | Jun 30 02:40 |
| _Hicham_ | is it free? | Jun 30 02:40 |
| tabletop | ive seen it on TPB but the company sort of has an unoffical non-commercial use is OK thing, | Jun 30 02:41 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : there is already some drivers written in C# | Jun 30 02:41 |
| tabletop | its a graphical programming language, very powerfull, you can include C code sections, and its very fast and inherently parallel. | Jun 30 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Items like LabVIEW are a true improvement in coding. | Jun 30 02:43 |
| oiaohm | Making it simpler to see stuffups. | Jun 30 02:43 |
| oiaohm | C# and Java really don't help with that. | Jun 30 02:43 |
| tabletop | sure is, its amazing, ive been able to do increadable things in really short time frames with it. | Jun 30 02:44 |
| oiaohm | So far there is not a good open source form of it. | Jun 30 02:45 |
| oiaohm | Really all the time wasted developing mono would have been better spent building something to compete with LabView. | Jun 30 02:45 |
| tabletop | that would be great, I would be right behind that effort. | Jun 30 02:46 |
| tabletop | making it more general purpose but its very functional. | Jun 30 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Simple tech point of view .net is not really offering that much. | Jun 30 02:46 |
| oiaohm | People forget the old language by MS marketed as safe. Remember VB. | Jun 30 02:47 |
| tabletop | Ive seen a guy drag an internet browser into a labVIEW windows, go to the code page and "wire up" the links and turning the web page into an application in like 5 minutes. | Jun 30 02:47 |
| oiaohm | That is exactly what we should be aiming for. | Jun 30 02:48 |
| oiaohm | Highly flexable highly simple to see defects. | Jun 30 02:48 |
| tabletop | yep | Jun 30 02:49 |
| oiaohm | Labview create C and stack of different langauges. | Jun 30 02:49 |
| oiaohm | Due to a great tool front end what is produced is safe. | Jun 30 02:49 |
| tabletop | and dataflow programming is great for mulit-processor or cluster platforms, it scales really well | Jun 30 02:49 |
| oiaohm | Notice that labview is a tool. | Jun 30 02:50 |
| oiaohm | Developers with great tools would basically be unbeatable. | Jun 30 02:50 |
| oiaohm | All the arguments over languages takes focus away from providing developers with great tools. | Jun 30 02:51 |
| tabletop | yes, and its cross platform, it started on mac i think, its on unix/linux windows and its fun and easy to learn and fun to master. | Jun 30 02:51 |
| oiaohm | .Net camp really don't have there eye on the ball. | Jun 30 02:53 |
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| tabletop | what I would like to see is a fully FOSS version of a graphical programming framework, different to labVIEW but graphical all the same, that compiles like C to machine code or bytecode. | Jun 30 02:55 |
| oiaohm | I have a few things I want. | Jun 30 02:55 |
| oiaohm | One is able to build like 6 platforms at once threw gcc. So I can save on generical optimisation time. | Jun 30 02:56 |
| tabletop | instead of LVIEWS VI's virtual instrumets, you could have VF vertual functions that are tested and proven working functions that can be used in other projects for code "reuse" and to improve output and quality | Jun 30 02:56 |
| oiaohm | Next is some form of bytecode gcc that covers everything C can do. | Jun 30 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Then some super good development tool like labview. | Jun 30 02:57 |
| IBM's DX is better for that kind of thing -> "labVIEW is the coolest language, and its available on Linux too" | Jun 30 03:00 | |
| But such interfaces are massively annoying to me. | Jun 30 03:00 | |
| tabletop | yes after awile sometimes you do get the need to actually type some code again, | Jun 30 03:01 |
| Lab View has types for its connections but the types are difficult to see without mousing over the connectors. | Jun 30 03:01 | |
| tabletop | you get mouse RSI | Jun 30 03:01 |
| Your chances of hooking things up properly are low. | Jun 30 03:02 | |
| tabletop | yes, its it will type convert if you wire the wrong thing, but you will usually get a broken connection when that happens. | Jun 30 03:02 |
| right, so well documented C is quicker. | Jun 30 03:03 | |
| Then there's devices.... mostly M$ only. | Jun 30 03:03 | |
| tabletop | I actually think for alot of things labVIEW is much faster development platform, and once like with C you develop more and more libraries (VI's) the faster you get | Jun 30 03:04 |
| tabletop | Largest projects ive ever developed used LabVIEW for everything from drivers to front end. | Jun 30 03:04 |
| Hmph. I've seen people with 10 year of experience get bogged down for hours doing simple things with Lab View that a proper device library would make trivial. | Jun 30 03:05 | |
| oiaohm | Style of coder twitter | Jun 30 03:06 |
| If you are going to do exactly what National Instruments intended, you might consider buying LabView, but it's expansive for what it is. | Jun 30 03:06 | |
| You are much better off separating data collection from display and analysis. | Jun 30 03:06 | |
| tabletop | really, ive never had that problem, but mabey, but I have had to ring technical assistance, and that was perfect no waiting and the guy stayed late to sort me out, | Jun 30 03:06 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : it is worth it | Jun 30 03:07 |
| you got especially good treatment. | Jun 30 03:07 | |
| tabletop | I would like to see a FOSS general purpose platform that is graphical based like labVIEW, it can compilel to C or whatever, but if you can drag=drop a browser and wire I/O to it and quickly code then it would be worthwhile | Jun 30 03:08 |
| Look to IBM's DX | Jun 30 03:08 | |
| tabletop | I will, | Jun 30 03:08 |
| wiring a browser would be silly, but I'm sure you could do it. | Jun 30 03:08 | |
| DX has the advantage of reasonable image export. | Jun 30 03:09 | |
| tabletop | you can with labVIEW, | Jun 30 03:09 |
| you might also look into text base browsers and scripting | Jun 30 03:09 | |
| tabletop | or excell, word, a text file, and Operating system file, and CIN "code interface node" that is a C sub-routine | Jun 30 03:09 |
| tabletop | you can interface with low level hardware, and create GUI's for your app as you go. | Jun 30 03:10 |
| excel in labview. why not just code the math? | Jun 30 03:10 | |
| tabletop | you can drag and drop a text file onto the front page, and read/write to is, programatically. | Jun 30 03:11 |
| oiaohm | Graphical style coder vs text based style coder | Jun 30 03:11 |
| oiaohm | tabletop and twitter. You are two different beasts you are not going to agree. | Jun 30 03:12 |
| when collecting data, I value speed and simplicity | Jun 30 03:12 | |
| labview is an interesting toy, but I do not advise using it for more than demonstrations. | Jun 30 03:13 | |
| tabletop | they all have their place, but I would like to see a FOSS version and ill look at DX, | Jun 30 03:13 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : CS have been built on a key concept : abstraction | Jun 30 03:13 |
| _Hicham_ | without abstraction, we couldn't have done much | Jun 30 03:13 |
| don't forget to install dxsamples when you do, they give you a good starting point | Jun 30 03:15 | |
| oiaohm | Blender is working on adding a graphical langauge for game programming. | Jun 30 03:15 |
| tabletop | all said and done computer science and programing languages have not progressed as quickly as tthe computer hardware. | Jun 30 03:15 |
| oiaohm | Just as an attempt to make it simpler. | Jun 30 03:15 |
| tabletop | Yes, im sure there are several Visual programming languages, I think mabey the Lego language is a bit like that as well ? | Jun 30 03:16 |
| _Hicham_ | tabletop : agree | Jun 30 03:16 |
| _Hicham_ | because in software we don't do much code reuse | Jun 30 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Linux world reuses lots of code. | Jun 30 03:16 |
| The ability to write drivers will help you in Dx. It is an area I did not look into because I used it for static data analysis. | Jun 30 03:17 | |
| tabletop | thats right, we keep reinventing the wheel | Jun 30 03:17 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : not compared to hardware | Jun 30 03:17 |
| no, we keep liberating the wheel. | Jun 30 03:17 | |
| _Hicham_ | in hardware we reuse much more than in software area | Jun 30 03:17 |
| oiaohm | Even in hardware there are a lot of dead processor designs. | Jun 30 03:17 |
| You have to remember that all software was once free. Important software like Maxima. | Jun 30 03:17 | |
| _Hicham_ | because software design is not stable | Jun 30 03:18 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has taken all these years to start heading into a stable stage. | Jun 30 03:18 |
| The non free software world was established by theft and has been short lived. | Jun 30 03:18 | |
| Free software is reestablishing itself. | Jun 30 03:19 | |
| tabletop | free or not the progress of software and programming paradymes has not progressed as fast as Hardware and CPU design, software does not follow moores law. | Jun 30 03:19 |
| oiaohm | List of features to be implmented in a OS kernel to cover every feature is masive. | Jun 30 03:19 |
| oiaohm | The feature list is way larger than creating a CPU. | Jun 30 03:19 |
| non free software can not progress quickly - it divides programmers into small groups that are unable to cooperate. | Jun 30 03:19 | |
| tabletop | I wonder what happens in all the Comp Sci departments in the worlds universities ? | Jun 30 03:20 |
| oiaohm | Each group has been taking small segments of the feature set. | Jun 30 03:20 |
| when a non free software vendor is bough or otherwise goes out of business, programmer effort is often wasted | Jun 30 03:20 | |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel has the most of any OS out there. | Jun 30 03:20 |
| oiaohm | We should see Linux kernel head to more stable over the next 2 years. | Jun 30 03:21 |
| oiaohm | As the feature list for a OS kernel starts running dry. | Jun 30 03:22 |
| _Hicham_ | and with Link Time Optimization, a lot of things are gonna change | Jun 30 03:24 |
| oiaohm | The trend in the Linux kernel world changed about 12 months ago. | Jun 30 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Major focus is cleaning up these days not adding that many new features. | Jun 30 03:27 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : what xulrunner series is used in songbird? | Jun 30 03:28 |
| oiaohm | Have not looked _Hicham_ | Jun 30 03:28 |
| _Hicham_ | it would be nice to build it against 1.9.1 series | Jun 30 03:28 |
| oiaohm | Think hardware design _Hicham_. You keep adding features until 1 day you cannot any more than you have to clean up. That is the point the Linux kernel is now hat. | Jun 30 03:29 |
| oiaohm | at. | Jun 30 03:29 |
| _Hicham_ | if u can't add, u expand | Jun 30 03:29 |
| _Hicham_ | take the CPU example | Jun 30 03:30 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel is to the point where there are less and less feature to add. | Jun 30 03:31 |
| oiaohm | So all that is left is performance. | Jun 30 03:31 |
| oiaohm | tweeking and tiding up the design. | Jun 30 03:31 |
| _Hicham_ | great | Jun 30 03:32 |
| oiaohm | final bits of rtos and real time scanning are the last majors left. Focus then has to move to improving memory management and other performance areas. | Jun 30 03:35 |
| _Hicham_ | I see that the kernel is going in a great way now that major corporations are contributing more | Jun 30 03:36 |
| oiaohm | I still remember Linus predicting there would be no 2.8 Linux kernel. | Jun 30 03:38 |
| oiaohm | At the way things are going that could be true. | Jun 30 03:39 |
| _Hicham_ | what does he mean by that? | Jun 30 03:39 |
| oiaohm | 2.4 ended because the internal design of the kenrel had to be corrected. | Jun 30 03:39 |
| oiaohm | There is nothing in 2.6 design at this stage that will force that event. | Jun 30 03:40 |
| tabletop | what was the kernel when he said that ? | Jun 30 03:40 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.18 | Jun 30 03:41 |
| oiaohm | Still nothing has appear since that will provide a need to create 2.8 | Jun 30 03:41 |
| oiaohm | up until 2.6.18 people were still trying to think up a feature list for 2.8 | Jun 30 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Feature list for 2.8 is still blank. | Jun 30 03:47 |
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| yuhong | http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/6/28/269 | Jun 30 03:59 |
| yuhong | What do you think? | Jun 30 04:00 |
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| fewa | oiaohm, well there ever be a 2.8? | Jun 30 04:25 |
| fewa | i think that development model is dead | Jun 30 04:25 |
| fewa | the only version is version 30 | Jun 30 04:25 |
| fewa | 2.6 is justahh just needed to read back | Jun 30 04:27 |
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| twitter1 | Well, well, look at this http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3992 | Jun 30 04:47 |
| twitter1 | same talking points and almost the exact same language the trolls threw into comments here recently. | Jun 30 04:48 |
| twitter1 | the folks there do a good job of discussing the question, KDE rocks. | Jun 30 04:53 |
| Motoko-chan | Yeah, looks like the comments actually have good content. | Jun 30 05:01 |
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| SeanTilley | Hiya. | Jun 30 05:04 |
| Motoko-chan | Hello | Jun 30 05:04 |
| SeanTilley | I fullfilled a dream today. | Jun 30 05:04 |
| Motoko-chan | What's that? | Jun 30 05:04 |
| SeanTilley | I tried out a clone of AmigaOS, which is as close as I'm probably going to get to an Amiga. | Jun 30 05:04 |
| SeanTilley | It was amazing. | Jun 30 05:04 |
| SeanTilley | Shame it hasn't really hit the mainstream in the Free Software community, has a lot of great ideas in it. | Jun 30 05:05 |
| SeanTilley | It's called AROS. | Jun 30 05:05 |
| SeanTilley | Very cool stuff. | Jun 30 05:06 |
| SeanTilley | Linux feels heavy and slow in comparison... | Jun 30 05:06 |
| SeanTilley | =[ | Jun 30 05:06 |
| tabletop | amigaOS is great, small, powerfull, and fast and a microkernel, | Jun 30 05:07 |
| SeanTilley | Yeah, I just wish the designs would have been implemented more in Free Software... | Jun 30 05:08 |
| SeanTilley | I mean, alot of the ideas could be adapted to say, HURD, and it would go so many places. | Jun 30 05:08 |
| tabletop | yes, same here, it was years ahead of its time. | Jun 30 05:08 |
| SeanTilley | Ramdisk, for example. | Jun 30 05:08 |
| SeanTilley | I have yet to find that in any other system. | Jun 30 05:08 |
| SeanTilley | Ah well, it's a shame I missed out on that era in computing. | Jun 30 05:09 |
| SeanTilley | I'm just glad to have seen a shimmer of it. | Jun 30 05:09 |
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| tabletop | that was the golden time when 6800 based machines had a real chance against the x86 class, and Amiga's were very very popular. it was the first to have graphics like chrome effects and shodow and rendering, and graphics bobs and sprites | Jun 30 05:12 |
| SeanTilley | Heh. | Jun 30 05:12 |
| SeanTilley | It was neat delving into it today, on a LiveDVD that ran faster than most of my system installations ever have. | Jun 30 05:13 |
| tabletop | thtats great, I cant wait, I would put that on myself, | Jun 30 05:15 |
| Ziggyfish | I didn't think the 6800 was that great (from an instruction set point of view) | Jun 30 05:16 |
| SeanTilley | http://vmwaros.blogspot.com/2009/04/icaros-desktop-live-is-complete.html | Jun 30 05:16 |
| SeanTilley | In case you want to take a look at it. | Jun 30 05:16 |
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| twitter1 | -> The AROS Research Operating System is a open source lightweight, efficient and flexible desktop operating system, aiming at being compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 at the API level, while improving on it in many areas. | Jun 30 06:08 |
| twitter1 | freedom makes a lot of things better | Jun 30 06:08 |
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| twitter1 | -> Mr. Siegel should be happy that all five of his steps to vanquish mono have already been taken. This KDE developer thread addresses alternatives, their performance and many other practical issues. At this point, I think we can all agree that ideological and practical issues are aligned - you don’t have to pick one or the other. Perhaps he will find things he likes there. Perhaps not | Jun 30 06:55 |
| twitter1 | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/29/mono-proponents-defence/comment-page-1/#comment-68877 | Jun 30 06:55 |
| twitter1 | ;-) | Jun 30 06:56 |
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| Eruaran | hello | Jun 30 07:22 |
| Eruaran | u there Roy ? | Jun 30 07:22 |
| Eruaran | Dunno if you know yet | Jun 30 07:23 |
| Eruaran | But the whole Windows 7 discount upgrade from Vista is pure bullshit | Jun 30 07:23 |
| Eruaran | There is NO DISCOUNT | Jun 30 07:23 |
| Eruaran | What they are doing is charging more for versions of Vista that come with the upgrade discount form | Jun 30 07:24 |
| Eruaran | And its usually in the OEM version, so the price is hidden in the total cost of the PC | Jun 30 07:24 |
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| Eruaran | Cost of Vista Business with Win7 upgrade form is $190 (this is ex tax cost price from a major supplier here in Australia) | Jun 30 07:27 |
| Eruaran | Our cost price INCLUDING tax for Vista Business without the Win7 upgrade form is $150 | Jun 30 07:28 |
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| Eruaran | Anyone buying a PC with Vista believing they are getting a "discount" Windows 7 upgrade are being swindled. | Jun 30 07:29 |
| Eruaran | Only the most arrogant and self assured monopoly can get away with this sort of disgusting scheme. | Jun 30 07:30 |
| Eruaran | Everyone should be told about the prices they are actually charging OEM's and resellers. | Jun 30 07:30 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, well... | Jun 30 07:31 |
| schestowitz | No-one would buy this thing anyway | Jun 30 07:31 |
| Eruaran | I just told one of our customers - I showed them the prices. | Jun 30 07:31 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft will force people to 'get' it with a PC | Jun 30 07:31 |
| schestowitz | And then 'upgrade' | Jun 30 07:31 |
| Eruaran | Many Windows users are actually looking at it thinking they will put up with Vista and then upgrade to Vista7 at a discounted price. | Jun 30 07:34 |
| Eruaran | But there is no discount, they're being conned. | Jun 30 07:34 |
| Eruaran | Doesn't worry me though. | Jun 30 07:34 |
| Eruaran | I've learned from customers today that other retailers are pushing it. I'm the only one who told them the truth. And they're angry. | Jun 30 07:35 |
| tabletop | I have not been able to find anywhere where they say they will give a discount, | Jun 30 07:35 |
| Eruaran | "MSOFT WIN VISTA BUS SP1 32BIT DVD W/ WIN7 UPGRADE FORM OEM" | Jun 30 07:36 |
| Eruaran | The "upgrade form" is what they take to the shop when they buy Windows 7 and get their "discount". | Jun 30 07:36 |
| Eruaran | At least I think thats what happens | Jun 30 07:38 |
| Eruaran | Anyone pushing this offer is participating in a scam. | Jun 30 07:39 |
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| schestowitz | MS is shrinking: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/29/microsoft_razorfish/ | Jun 30 07:40 |
| schestowitz | Another ~700 jobs to go away | Jun 30 07:41 |
| Ziggyfish | time to go home | Jun 30 07:41 |
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| schestowitz | Eruaran: Microsoft doesn't know how to make money from Windows | Jun 30 07:41 |
| schestowitz | So it's conning people | Jun 30 07:42 |
| schestowitz | Windows revenue fell very sharply | Jun 30 07:42 |
| schestowitz | Eruaran: thanks, I'll mention this later | Jun 30 07:42 |
| tabletop | they dont need that company now as they have bing for the promotion leg | Jun 30 07:43 |
| schestowitz | http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2009/06/29/daily3.html | Jun 30 07:44 |
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| Motoko-chan | schestowitz, hey. | Jun 30 08:01 |
| schestowitz | Hey, what's up? | Jun 30 08:01 |
| Motoko-chan | Regarding that Oracle/MSSQL thing I posted about a while back. | Jun 30 08:01 |
| Motoko-chan | I don't have the study, but I still have a scan of the advert. | Jun 30 08:02 |
| Motoko-chan | It's kinda small, but you might find it interesting. | Jun 30 08:02 |
| Motoko-chan | Can you accept dcc sends? | Jun 30 08:03 |
| Eruaran | Bing News = Google News (only Google News is better) | Jun 30 08:06 |
| Eruaran | Bing travel search = Kayak | Jun 30 08:06 |
| Eruaran | they couldn't even be bothered changing the colours... | Jun 30 08:07 |
| Motoko-chan | Ah ha! | Jun 30 08:08 |
| Motoko-chan | Found the benchmark the advert is mentioning | Jun 30 08:08 |
| Motoko-chan | http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodinfo/compare/sap/sapad.mspx | Jun 30 08:08 |
| Motoko-chan | "New results from SAP show that on similarly configured systems, SQL Server 2000 running on Windows Server 2003 outperformed Oracle 9i running on HP-UX. The highest Fully Processed Line Items Per hour, 178,000, has SAP certification number 2005017, and the highest 4-way Oracle result in this benchmark is 88,670, with SAP certification number 2004030." | Jun 30 08:09 |
| Motoko-chan | Yeah, um, the MSSQL server is 8 cores. | Jun 30 08:09 |
| Motoko-chan | The Oracle server is 4 cores. | Jun 30 08:09 |
| schestowitz | Can you use mail? | Jun 30 08:09 |
| Motoko-chan | Sure. | Jun 30 08:09 |
| schestowitz | I can't work dcc too well | Jun 30 08:09 |
| Motoko-chan | I just don't want to post my personal site. | Jun 30 08:09 |
| Motoko-chan | It's bandwidth-constrained. | Jun 30 08:10 |
| schestowitz | THanks | Jun 30 08:10 |
| Motoko-chan | I can link you privately if you want to download it. | Jun 30 08:11 |
| Motoko-chan | Then you can post it somewhere for your viewers. | Jun 30 08:11 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft to Cut Another 2,000+ Jobs < http://ping.fm/Q3zuJ > | Jun 30 08:12 | |
| oiaohm | Also HP-UX has the lowest benchmarks with Oracle. Solarias and Linux out score it. | Jun 30 08:12 |
| oiaohm | Basically MS cheats on benchmarks at every chance. | Jun 30 08:12 |
| Motoko-chan | It's a really stacked config. | Jun 30 08:13 |
| Motoko-chan | Even with it not being HPUX. | Jun 30 08:13 |
| Motoko-chan | You are looking at 4 dual-core Opterons versus 4 single-core Itanium2 processors. | Jun 30 08:13 |
| Motoko-chan | Quite a big speed difference too. | Jun 30 08:14 |
| oiaohm | Also thinking Oracle also runs on windows. | Jun 30 08:14 |
| oiaohm | Benchmark was very incompletely. | Jun 30 08:14 |
| Motoko-chan | The point was to show MSSQL was faster than Oracle. | Jun 30 08:14 |
| Motoko-chan | They want you to buy their db, not just the OS. | Jun 30 08:15 |
| Motoko-chan | Frankly, I find MSSQL to be easier to manage than Oracle. | Jun 30 08:15 |
| oiaohm | Also lower clock speed processors. | Jun 30 08:15 |
| Motoko-chan | Oracle is just strange to work with at the best of times. | Jun 30 08:15 |
| oiaohm | MS should have double the threw put or Oracle but it does not. | Jun 30 08:16 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] YouTube Gets Serious About News < http://ping.fm/t9Ofg > | Jun 30 08:17 | |
| Motoko-chan | schestowitz, did you get the stuff I sent you on here? | Jun 30 08:17 |
| schestowitz | IRC or mail? | Jun 30 08:17 |
| Motoko-chan | I sent in a PM | Jun 30 08:18 |
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| schestowitz | Oh | Jun 30 08:18 |
| Motoko-chan | Feel free to download the image, but keep the link private please. | Jun 30 08:18 |
| Motoko-chan | Hmmm. I noticed one more thing about that benchmark comparison. They are 10 months apart. | Jun 30 08:19 |
| schestowitz | Thanks | Jun 30 08:19 |
| schestowitz | I know how to fit this | Jun 30 08:19 |
| Motoko-chan | It's just one more effort on Microsoft's part to spin bad data into a convincing glossy blurb to appeal to the C-levels. | Jun 30 08:21 |
| schestowitz | Foxconn says it's not quitting the channel < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1432015/foxconn-quitting-channel > | Jun 30 08:21 |
| Motoko-chan | I don't mind if they do a fair comparison and win, but this kind of stuff just hurts their credibility. | Jun 30 08:22 |
| schestowitz | Thanks. Let me prepare a post | Jun 30 08:22 |
| schestowitz | Yet Another Company Sues Google For Not Being In Google's Index < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090629/1243065407.shtml > Haha. | Jun 30 08:23 |
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| Motoko-chan | Nice. Well, no publicity is bad publicity. | Jun 30 08:24 |
| Motoko-chan | And the company gets its name out there. | Jun 30 08:25 |
| schestowitz | Well, yeah. | Jun 30 08:26 |
| schestowitz | But to shut about this is worse | Jun 30 08:26 |
| schestowitz | They did the same with IBM last month | Jun 30 08:26 |
| Motoko-chan | I missed that one | Jun 30 08:26 |
| schestowitz | Personal attacks for Mono commence: http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-29-005-35-NW-GN-MS-0000 | Jun 30 08:30 |
| *Motoko-chan still doesn't understand the "KDE4 is a failure" argument | Jun 30 08:31 | |
| oiaohm | KDE 4.0 was a marketing failure. | Jun 30 08:35 |
| oiaohm | Marketing and development teams did not talk cleanly with each other. | Jun 30 08:35 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/blogs/productivity_sauce_dmitri_s_open_source_blend_of_productive_computing/krut_screencasts_made_easy "Down for Maintenance" | Jun 30 08:35 |
| oiaohm | So leading to users trying KDE 4.0 who should never have seen it. | Jun 30 08:35 |
| schestowitz | Including Linus | Jun 30 08:36 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4.3 is starting to show promise. | Jun 30 08:39 |
| Motoko-chan | I'm on 4.2 and enjoying it. | Jun 30 08:39 |
| Motoko-chan | I like the direction it's going. | Jun 30 08:39 |
| Motoko-chan | Good night. | Jun 30 08:39 |
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| schestowitz | Debunking Canadian health care myths < http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427 > | Jun 30 08:46 |
| schestowitz | I likes KDE 4 when I used it elsewhere. I'll hop onto it when I upgrade my machines | Jun 30 08:47 |
| schestowitz | WOT? "The Central Intelligence Agency crucified a prisoner in Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, according to a report published in The New Yorker magazine. " http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14133 | Jun 30 08:48 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Obama contemplates Executive Order for detention without charges http://ping.fm/mWnak | Jun 30 08:52 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] RT: @Mark_Antony: Hidden cost of Windows - http://bit.ly/ZnZm2 £600k *consultancy* to purge cornficker from Manchester council. | Jun 30 08:57 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Latest Benchmark Fraud http://ping.fm/l1gSj | Jun 30 09:22 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Dublin DC Could be Indicative of the Notorious Tax Evasion Conspiracy http://ping.fm/cfjTH | Jun 30 09:47 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Computer Shops Participate in Vista 7 “Scam” < http://ping.fm/IdbVp > | Jun 30 10:17 | |
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| oiaohm | http://www.marketwatch.com/story/global-gaming-factory-x-acquisitions-of-the-pirate-bay-and-new-file-sharing-technology-p2p-20 By by pirate bay as it was. | Jun 30 10:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @AndyAndMike no, mentioning cbeebies doesn't mean I want random children's comedy spammers thanks. Die in a fire please. | Jun 30 11:22 | |
| schestowitz | bbl | Jun 30 11:36 |
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| thenixedreport1 | TPB guys are saying not to worry. | Jun 30 11:53 |
| thenixedreport1 | I wonder what their plans are? | Jun 30 11:53 |
| MinceR | index.hu says they're pulling a napster | Jun 30 11:54 |
| MinceR | while TPB says everything will carry on normally | Jun 30 11:54 |
| oiaohm | TPB sold yes it is very much napster | Jun 30 11:56 |
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| MinceR | http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-sold-to-software-company-goes-legal-090630/ vs http://thepiratebay.org/blog/164 | Jun 30 12:05 |
| oiaohm | Remember what napster turned into when it went legal. | Jun 30 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact for the pirates its over. | Jun 30 12:10 |
| MinceR | no, for the pirates it's time to switch to the next one. :> | Jun 30 12:11 |
| oiaohm | Exactly so pirate bay will become another shadow like napster is today. | Jun 30 12:13 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5 will be available later today. Help us spread the word! http://bit.ly/AeoxB #fx35 | Jun 30 12:42 | |
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| trmanco | http://www.spreadfirefox.com/shiretokoshock-campaign | Jun 30 13:13 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shiretoko Shock: http://is.gd/1j5Mb #fx35 | Jun 30 13:27 | |
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| Eruaran | hello | Jun 30 13:29 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft chief quits. http://ping.fm/LCIDA | Jun 30 14:22 | |
| schestowitz | People use us to debunk the lies from Net Applications | Jun 30 14:25 |
| schestowitz | http://openlamp.co.kr/148 | Jun 30 14:25 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hulu locks out PS3 Users, Others to follow? < http://ping.fm/3f7Y1 > | Jun 30 14:27 | |
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| *hicham is now known as _Hicham_ | Jun 30 14:33 | |
| _Hicham_ | Hi oiaohm | Jun 30 14:34 |
| nicktastic | The reason TPB says we shouldn't worry is specious :\ | Jun 30 14:40 |
| oiaohm | nicktastic: history repeats | Jun 30 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Starts to get boring after a while. | Jun 30 14:41 |
| nicktastic | Yeah. | Jun 30 14:42 |
| oiaohm | The do not worry line also come from napster. | Jun 30 14:42 |
| schestowitz | I see that news is slow this week. I'll take the break early | Jun 30 14:42 |
| nicktastic | Ah | Jun 30 14:42 |
| schestowitz | I'll still pop in (online) occasionally, but it seems like a great time to take a break. Long weekend too due to July 4th | Jun 30 14:43 |
| nicktastic | I didn't pay attention at the time | Jun 30 14:43 |
| *nicktastic waves | Jun 30 14:43 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft's sidewalk memorial to Encarta, Money and other fossils < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/A_memorial_to_Encarta_Money_Bob_and_other_Microsoft_fossils49390432.html > | Jun 30 14:44 |
| oiaohm | I am am getting tot he point of being around too long in the IT world. | Jun 30 14:44 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is fortunately self-destructing | Jun 30 14:44 |
| oiaohm | I am losing my means to take short term views of things. | Jun 30 14:44 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: China will take it all :-) | Jun 30 14:44 |
| twitter1 | Sidewalk for Ecarta? If they want people to remember it, they should donate it to Wikipedia as free images, music and articles. | Jun 30 14:46 |
| twitter1 | Here's MAFIAA propaganda http://www.pcworld.com/article/167616/will_a_legal_pirate_bay_thrive_hint_no.html | Jun 30 14:47 |
| schestowitz | I can't get the content here to display: http://www.buntfu.com/news,page,63,topic_id,content_pages | Jun 30 14:47 |
| schestowitz | twitter: mind you, it's from a MS-sponsored Web site | Jun 30 14:47 |
| schestowitz | They usually hide MS weaknesses | Jun 30 14:47 |
| twitter1 | all the usual lies, "90% of content is stolen" bs | Jun 30 14:48 |
| twitter1 | the war against sharing continues | Jun 30 14:48 |
| schestowitz | RMS wrote yesterday about the MAFIAA propaganda machine | Jun 30 14:48 |
| schestowitz | He linked to Michael Geist's blog | Jun 30 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Stolen is not the proper term, either | Jun 30 14:49 |
| schestowitz | I stopped reading IDG some months ago | Jun 30 14:49 |
| schestowitz | Makes me happy(ier) | Jun 30 14:49 |
| oiaohm | China is a funny country. | Jun 30 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Most likely they will stay put. | Jun 30 14:51 |
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| schestowitz | Install Firefox 3.5 http://www.ubuntumini.com/2009/06/install-firefox-35.html | Jun 30 14:54 |
| twitter1 | I'm very tired of MAFIAA propaganda and I'm ready for copyright abolition. | Jun 30 14:55 |
| twitter1 | copyright is the only thing standing between people and the world's greatest public library | Jun 30 14:55 |
| schestowitz | More Mono trolls posting in BN from ma.comcast.net (near Novell HQ) | Jun 30 14:56 |
| twitter1 | it only represents the interests of large, obsolete publishers now | Jun 30 14:56 |
| nicktastic | BN? | Jun 30 14:56 |
| twitter1 | publishers who cling to monopolies that broadcast and acid paper gave them | Jun 30 14:56 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jun 30 14:57 | |
| schestowitz | The spiration is for copyright flexibilitt | Jun 30 14:58 |
| schestowitz | Flexibility as in fair use for example | Jun 30 14:58 |
| twitter1 | the damage those publishers do is obvious from stupid laws like the DMCA which outlaw free software as "copyright circumvention" | Jun 30 14:58 |
| schestowitz | Copyright is still needed even to enorce GPL | Jun 30 14:58 |
| schestowitz | Buy copyright is a broad concept/term, then there's commons | Jun 30 14:58 |
| schestowitz | Or open access, which is not the same as copyleft | Jun 30 14:59 |
| schestowitz | nicktastic: yes | Jun 30 14:59 |
| schestowitz | We have troll comments from Novellers | Jun 30 14:59 |
| twitter1 | Without copyright, there would be no need for GPL. | Jun 30 14:59 |
| schestowitz | Not exaclty | Jun 30 14:59 |
| oiaohm | GPL would not exist without copyright. | Jun 30 14:59 |
| twitter1 | the kind of business interests that abuse copyright would go away without government protection | Jun 30 14:59 |
| schestowitz | Remember you need to demand copies for binaries made from code | Jun 30 15:00 |
| schestowitz | assignment of attribution alone is similar to coyright | Jun 30 15:00 |
| schestowitz | So when I sign a letter I write I claim it my own | Jun 30 15:00 |
| trmanco | http://www.php.net/archive/2009.php#id2009-06-30-1 | Jun 30 15:00 |
| twitter1 | M$ would fall over and other publishers of non free software would not be able to do damage | Jun 30 15:00 |
| oiaohm | GPL uses copyright to force giving back. | Jun 30 15:00 |
| schestowitz | What I allow others to do has little to do with copyright alone | Jun 30 15:00 |
| oiaohm | In a world without copyright trade secrets could dominate more. | Jun 30 15:01 |
| twitter1 | attribution does not require the ability to restrict others | Jun 30 15:01 |
| schestowitz | It does | Jun 30 15:01 |
| schestowitz | To require attribution is to make a restriction | Jun 30 15:01 |
| oiaohm | Attribution does not require person to give up the secrets. | Jun 30 15:01 |
| schestowitz | As in, use this, but I restrict use based on this dondition | Jun 30 15:01 |
| oiaohm | Attribution happens with BSD all the time. | Jun 30 15:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @shiflett: PHP 5.3 has been released: http://tr.im/php53 !php | Jun 30 15:02 | |
| schestowitz | Even FSF requires adding licensing info to contenty | Jun 30 15:02 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: indeed | Jun 30 15:02 |
| oiaohm | The world needs something like GPL. | Jun 30 15:02 |
| twitter1 | they do this because abusers exist - those abusers would go away without copyright to protect them | Jun 30 15:02 |
| schestowitz | it mazimises sharing | Jun 30 15:02 |
| oiaohm | If you nuke copyright you would have to create another system to allow the forcing of sharing. | Jun 30 15:03 |
| schestowitz | And reduces reproduction, taking into account reproducibility | Jun 30 15:03 |
| twitter1 | saying that restrictions maximize sharing is like saying firearms maximize healthcare | Jun 30 15:03 |
| oiaohm | In the case of GPL its true. | Jun 30 15:03 |
| oiaohm | GPL has restrictions that say it must be shared. | Jun 30 15:03 |
| MinceR | as long as we need forcing sharing | Jun 30 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Its a ill wind that does no good twitter1 | Jun 30 15:04 |
| MinceR | we should nuke m$ and crApple along with copyrights. | Jun 30 15:04 |
| twitter1 | M$ and Apple will fall over without copyright "protection" | Jun 30 15:04 |
| oiaohm | The good you have to see and work out a way to keep alive. | Jun 30 15:04 |
| twitter1 | it removes income from those who abuse computer users | Jun 30 15:05 |
| oiaohm | Its one thing to remove copyright. | Jun 30 15:05 |
| oiaohm | What are you going to put in it place to allow the good GPL provides to keep on happing. | Jun 30 15:05 |
| twitter1 | without that income, their selfish little business model falls apart | Jun 30 15:05 |
| krenso | ok, imagine there is no copyrights. But still you would get only binaries from some corporations. Maybe some day source will leak. | Jun 30 15:05 |
| twitter1 | If it were not for M$'s OEM and retail manipulation, Windows would have fallen to free software ten years ago. | Jun 30 15:06 |
| schestowitz | You know that you wrote too much Python, when < http://www.sourcecode.de/content/you-know-you-wrote-too-much-python-when > | Jun 30 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Removing copyright does not prevent DRM or closed source existing twitter1 | Jun 30 15:06 |
| twitter1 | copyright creates an artificial scarcity that funds M$'s monopoly abuse. | Jun 30 15:06 |
| oiaohm | So can DRM. | Jun 30 15:07 |
| schestowitz | Copyrights are not opposite of sharing | Jun 30 15:07 |
| schestowitz | That's a misconception | Jun 30 15:07 |
| schestowitz | It's not patents | Jun 30 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Copyrights can be pro sharing like the case of GPL and creative commons. | Jun 30 15:07 |
| twitter1 | copyright says, "only I can make copies of my work" | Jun 30 15:07 |
| schestowitz | Which is why "intellectual monopoly" does not exist | Jun 30 15:07 |
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| oiaohm | Copyright does not have to say that twitter1 | Jun 30 15:07 |
| schestowitz | Trade marks are like names too. TOTALLY different stuff | Jun 30 15:07 |
| oiaohm | It can say you can make copies of my work as long as you follow the following conditions. | Jun 30 15:08 |
| twitter1 | yes, trademark and copyright have different purposes | Jun 30 15:08 |
| oiaohm | BSD is a copyright that says you can basically do anything. | Jun 30 15:08 |
| twitter1 | trademark has been abused as well but serves a reasonable purpose | Jun 30 15:08 |
| oiaohm | So copyright is not the complete evil here. | Jun 30 15:08 |
| oiaohm | Depending how it used is if its evil or not twitter1 | Jun 30 15:09 |
| oiaohm | You are disreguarding the good uses. | Jun 30 15:09 |
| twitter1 | copyright's purpose was to encourage publication and the enlargement of the public domain. | Jun 30 15:09 |
| oiaohm | That was a good goal. | Jun 30 15:09 |
| oiaohm | GPL and Creative common use copyright to follow that goal. | Jun 30 15:10 |
| twitter1 | it should be obvious that the kinds of encouragement required for dead tree publishing are no longer required | Jun 30 15:10 |
| kentma | twitter1: it wasn't about the paperwork. | Jun 30 15:10 |
| twitter1 | oh yes it was | Jun 30 15:10 |
| kentma | twitter1: it was about the behaviour of people. | Jun 30 15:10 |
| kentma | twitter1: specifically, whether they shared ideas or not. | Jun 30 15:11 |
| oiaohm | GPL uses it to encourage publishing of source code. | Jun 30 15:11 |
| twitter1 | US copyright was all about encouraging people to risk their money publishing on paper | Jun 30 15:11 |
| oiaohm | For what otherwise would be closed source binaries twitter1 | Jun 30 15:11 |
| oiaohm | In this day and age. | Jun 30 15:11 |
| oiaohm | So copyright still is doing good things twitter1 | Jun 30 15:11 |
| twitter1 | a temporary monopoly was granted for writing on paper in order to encourage publication | Jun 30 15:11 |
| kentma | twitter1: I think you're really missing the point of all this in an exceedingly big way. | Jun 30 15:12 |
| twitter1 | Jefferson knew that ideas were not property and would always spread | Jun 30 15:12 |
| oiaohm | GPL allows you to use the source code as long as you agree to publish. | Jun 30 15:12 |
| oiaohm | the source code. | Jun 30 15:12 |
| oiaohm | Using the rules of copyright twitter1 | Jun 30 15:12 |
| oiaohm | Something has to be placed to replace the good GPL does. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| oiaohm | If you nuke copyright. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| twitter1 | I don't think I can be more clear, kentma. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. Internet Explorer in Ubuntu < http://www.atoztoa.com/2009/06/internet-explorer-in-ubuntu.html > | Jun 30 15:13 |
| kentma | twitter1: copyright started in the UK, and it was about copying of books. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| oiaohm | Without it MS could take GPL source embed it in a closed source binary and release it. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| oiaohm | So reducing there R&D | Jun 30 15:13 |
| twitter1 | US copyright was created in explicit protest of UK copyright. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| kentma | twitter1: I think it was 1662. | Jun 30 15:13 |
| oiaohm | So reducing the profit they need to make twitter1 | Jun 30 15:14 |
| oiaohm | So making pirated stuff less of a issue to them. | Jun 30 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Using DRM they still could live. | Jun 30 15:14 |
| oiaohm | So removal of copyright could be a no op event. | Jun 30 15:14 |
| twitter1 | permanent ownership of maps, plays and other works on paper was seen as an abomination and tyranny by the US founders | Jun 30 15:14 |
| kentma | twitter1: the US spent many decades deliberately flouting patent, copyright and lord knows what else... | Jun 30 15:15 |
| oiaohm | to be correct even more damaging that it is now. | Jun 30 15:15 |
| oiaohm | Idea that removing copyright will cure problem is wrong twitter1 | Jun 30 15:15 |
| twitter1 | The US sought to make such works available to everyone. | Jun 30 15:15 |
| twitter1 | That was the point of US copyright law. | Jun 30 15:15 |
| oiaohm | A means to tag works that if you build on this you must release what you have done needs to exist. | Jun 30 15:16 |
| oiaohm | Destroy that you do major harm twitter1 | Jun 30 15:16 |
| twitter1 | Now that the US is the predominant world power, we see it's laws abused to achieve the same purpose as ancient UK copyright laws. | Jun 30 15:16 |
| oiaohm | I am not saying that USA copyright law is right twitter1 | Jun 30 15:17 |
| oiaohm | You just need to take a broader view of the issue. | Jun 30 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Some areas in copyright need changing twitter1 | Jun 30 15:17 |
| twitter1 | encrypted works will never enter the public domain and should never have copyright protection, for example, yet US law outlaws sharing of software that decrypts. | Jun 30 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Like when items covert from copyrighted to public domain. | Jun 30 15:18 |
| twitter1 | The point of US copyright law was to advance knowledge and art. | Jun 30 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Lack of copyright laws would encourage more encrypted works. | Jun 30 15:18 |
| twitter1 | The US Constitution is quite clear and has to be grossly twisted to be abused the way it is. | Jun 30 15:19 |
| oiaohm | This is why removing copyright is not a option. | Jun 30 15:19 |
| MinceR | so it's not an option now? | Jun 30 15:19 |
| oiaohm | Without other counter measers. | Jun 30 15:19 |
| MinceR | interesting. | Jun 30 15:19 |
| oiaohm | The tech for DRM and other nightmare techs exist. | Jun 30 15:20 |
| twitter1 | Most US copyright law flagrantly violates the US Constitution. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| MinceR | and copyright law prevents DRM? no, it doesn't. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| oiaohm | When the time encryption fails completely you might have a option to remove copyright laws. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| MinceR | so i don't see how it isn't even an option to remove it. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Copyright laws are netural on DRM. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| MinceR | it might be undesirable, but it's certainly an option. | Jun 30 15:21 |
| tacone | guess one riaaa trial is been fought basing on the non-constitionalness | Jun 30 15:22 |
| tacone | is being | Jun 30 15:22 |
| schestowitz | More Funny Linux Posters - Or, Part Two < http://linuxshellaccount.blogspot.com/2009/06/more-funny-linux-posters-or-part-two.html > | Jun 30 15:22 |
| oiaohm | But without copyright more companies would look at the DRM option MinceR | Jun 30 15:22 |
| MinceR | that isn't really proven or quantified. one can't just ignore this option. | Jun 30 15:23 |
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| oiaohm | The higher the pirate rate of items more companies look at DRM too MinceR | Jun 30 15:23 |
| oiaohm | So it tested. | Jun 30 15:23 |
| MinceR | DRM is a fad. | Jun 30 15:24 |
| oiaohm | Very old fad | Jun 30 15:24 |
| twitter1 | restrictions are evil | Jun 30 15:24 |
| MinceR | they can look at it all day and it still won't work. | Jun 30 15:24 |
| MinceR | at least for copyright enforcement/replacement. | Jun 30 15:24 |
| oiaohm | Not everyone has the skills to break DRM. | Jun 30 15:24 |
| MinceR | in a closed, controlled environment it could be a document security measure | Jun 30 15:24 |
| MinceR | it takes only one person to break it | Jun 30 15:24 |
| twitter1 | DRM is broadcasters and book publishers trying to impose old limits on the digital world to create a scarcity that need not exist | Jun 30 15:25 |
| twitter1 | but you can't count on being able to break it forever | Jun 30 15:25 |
| twitter1 | it's better to not protect restricted works in the first place | Jun 30 15:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the deeper it gets embeded into devices the harder DRM will become to break. | Jun 30 15:25 |
| twitter1 | why should my tax money be spent on such stupid restrictions? | Jun 30 15:25 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: DRM must be eliminated, regardless of copyright law | Jun 30 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Removing copyright would accelerate that process. | Jun 30 15:26 |
| oiaohm | This is what I am getting at. | Jun 30 15:26 |
| oiaohm | You cannot just remove copyright law. | Jun 30 15:26 |
| twitter1 | does anyone really get angry when someone makes a copy of some Disney work for their neighbor? | Jun 30 15:26 |
| MinceR | what process? | Jun 30 15:26 |
| oiaohm | If you have not dealt with DRM. | Jun 30 15:26 |
| MinceR | is DRM spreading now? | Jun 30 15:26 |
| MinceR | last time i checked it was failing | Jun 30 15:26 |
| MinceR | DRM on music is already being dropped | Jun 30 15:27 |
| oiaohm | Next generation DRM is looking at being embed in screens. | Jun 30 15:27 |
| MinceR | even crApple gave up on it | Jun 30 15:27 |
| MinceR | they'll fail on that front too | Jun 30 15:27 |
| oiaohm | Current DRM fails because it was software users could get at. | Jun 30 15:27 |
| oiaohm | If you cannot get at the DRM system you basically become locked out. | Jun 30 15:28 |
| MinceR | hw DRM can be cracked too | Jun 30 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Depends on type. | Jun 30 15:28 |
| MinceR | especially considering that they aren't willing to pay the price of making everything tamper-resistant | Jun 30 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Has the xbox360 being fully broken. | Jun 30 15:29 |
| MinceR | also, if all else fails, they can still get the analog signal | Jun 30 15:29 |
| MinceR | i don't really care about xboxes | Jun 30 15:29 |
| MinceR | or consoles in general | Jun 30 15:29 |
| oiaohm | Answer is no. | Jun 30 15:29 |
| oiaohm | It has not been fully broken. | Jun 30 15:29 |
| MinceR | and that proves that it won't ever be broken? | Jun 30 15:29 |
| oiaohm | Its design is extreamly resistant to being broken. | Jun 30 15:30 |
| oiaohm | Mostly because users cannot run what they like on it. | Jun 30 15:30 |
| trmanco | Firefox 3.5 has been released | Jun 30 15:30 |
| oiaohm | The more closed the black box around the DRM becomes the harder cracking it will become MinceR. | Jun 30 15:31 |
| oiaohm | Until its taking years to crack each black box. | Jun 30 15:31 |
| oiaohm | And costing the end user more. | Jun 30 15:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] está na hora, está na hora, está na hora de redirecionar todas as visitas para um página especial :-P | Jun 30 15:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] São quase 3:50, 15:50 :-P | Jun 30 15:32 | |
| oiaohm | DRM is the devil we have to worry about MinceR. | Jun 30 15:32 |
| schestowitz | Miguel begs for Apple live.. http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jun-29.html | Jun 30 15:32 |
| MinceR | it is, but we're winning | Jun 30 15:32 |
| MinceR | i'd prefer apple dead. | Jun 30 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Winning most because the first ones took the cheep development path. | Jun 30 15:33 |
| MinceR | the sdk license won't allow anyone to release mono for the jesusPhone anyway. | Jun 30 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Problem is custom chips are coming cheep. | Jun 30 15:34 |
| MinceR | tamper-resistant custom chips? | Jun 30 15:34 |
| oiaohm | So DRM in hardware as black boxs will become more possiable. | Jun 30 15:34 |
| MinceR | remember, all we need is one person to get the key | Jun 30 15:34 |
| oiaohm | The are already under the 50 USD mark MinceR. | Jun 30 15:34 |
| oiaohm | What if each device has a unique key MinceR. | Jun 30 15:35 |
| MinceR | then they'll decrypt movies for that one unique key | Jun 30 15:35 |
| MinceR | if pirating is so difficult, someone will break it once and _sell_ the result | Jun 30 15:36 |
| oiaohm | And everything decrypted is watermarked with its source. | Jun 30 15:36 |
| MinceR | watermarks can be removed | Jun 30 15:36 |
| oiaohm | So where ever you break will only last a short ammont of time. | Jun 30 15:36 |
| oiaohm | You can only remove watermarks if you know they are there. | Jun 30 15:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shocking news! New Firefox 3.5 is out: http://bit.ly/ShiretokoShock #fx35 | Jun 30 15:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shockingly fast! Check out the fastest Firefox ever: http://bit.ly/ShiretokoShock #fx35 | Jun 30 15:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shock 'n' Roll with Firefox 3.5 http://bit.ly/ShiretokoShock #fx35 | Jun 30 15:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @MozCreative: Firefox 3.5 is live - go get it! www.mozilla.com #firefox #fx35 | Jun 30 15:37 | |
| oiaohm | Lot of movie pirates at moment are being tracked down by the watermarks MinceR. | Jun 30 15:37 |
| kentma | twitter1: I wouldn't say that I'd be angry, at least, no more angry than when someone parks illegally, or breaks the speed limit, or chucks their rubbish into my hedge. Frankly, the latter affects me far more than the other things do. | Jun 30 15:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: then they have a motivation to find a way to remove watermarks. :) | Jun 30 15:38 |
| MinceR | it only takes an inside source | Jun 30 15:38 |
| MinceR | and the more watermarking is used the more such sources will be available | Jun 30 15:38 |
| kentma | twitter1: but I imagine that Disney don't like it much, but there is a solution if they want to hold onto their films, which is to keep them in the cinema. This is what they did for many many years. | Jun 30 15:39 |
| MinceR | also, remember that people don't care that much about quality degradation | Jun 30 15:39 |
| MinceR | in general | Jun 30 15:39 |
| oiaohm | Depends on the watermark. | Jun 30 15:39 |
| MinceR | even recordings off the movie screen were spread | Jun 30 15:39 |
| oiaohm | Case hear was tracked to a person recording a out side movie theather. with a cammera by the watermarks in the move displayed on screen. | Jun 30 15:40 |
| oiaohm | So dropping quality does not mean you have destroyed the watermark. | Jun 30 15:41 |
| oiaohm | You could have destroyed everything but the watermark. | Jun 30 15:41 |
| kentma | don't make dodgy copies, then... | Jun 30 15:41 |
| MinceR | how did they know which person was it? theaters tend to be watched by many people. | Jun 30 15:41 |
| oiaohm | Because the idiot came back MinceR | Jun 30 15:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me vai comer, depois vais escrever sobre o Firefox 3.5 e depois disso vai por online a página especial :-P com video html embebido :) | Jun 30 15:42 | |
| kentma | MI5, when seeding "secret" documents to track down moles (foreign spies) used to make every copy of a particular document just slightly different, and then monitor the distribution of them. | Jun 30 15:42 |
| oiaohm | And had recorded from the same location many different times MinceR. | Jun 30 15:42 |
| MinceR | kentma: so should we expect slightly differently edited copies of movies? :) | Jun 30 15:42 |
| kentma | yes. | Jun 30 15:42 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i see | Jun 30 15:42 |
| MinceR | then again, delaying some cuts by 1 frame shouldn't be difficult | Jun 30 15:43 |
| MinceR | that's 1 bit per cut | Jun 30 15:43 |
| kentma | Ordnance survey did this with their maps, too, and in the end, caught a major mapping company copying their maps. | Jun 30 15:43 |
| oiaohm | One case was different numbers of computer generated rain drops MinceR. | Jun 30 15:43 |
| MinceR | ic | Jun 30 15:43 |
| kentma | I forget which one, but there was a *huge* settlement. | Jun 30 15:43 |
| oiaohm | Simplely frease frame at the right point and count the rain drops. | Jun 30 15:43 |
| oiaohm | The number told you where. | Jun 30 15:43 |
| oiaohm | The water mark could be in plain view. | Jun 30 15:44 |
| oiaohm | If you know where to look. | Jun 30 15:44 |
| oiaohm | This is why lowing quality does not work MinceR. | Jun 30 15:45 |
| MinceR | comparing some copies could help though | Jun 30 15:45 |
| oiaohm | That is if you have truly got you hands on independant copies. | Jun 30 15:45 |
| oiaohm | If you have you can find watermarks fairly simplely. | Jun 30 15:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @brunomiguel: a notícia do lançamento do firefox 3.5 já está no mozilla.pt. vejam aqui --> http://ur1.ca/6iqr #firefox #fx35 #FRFX35 | Jun 30 15:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Ubuntu/Canonical publishes Mono Position Statement http://bit.ly/KyTwK | Jun 30 15:47 | |
| oiaohm | Another one for picture theaters is comparing to secuirty cam footage for damage that has happened to the film in its traval. | Jun 30 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Naturally creating watermark MinceR | Jun 30 15:47 |
| MinceR | until they switch to digital technology :> | Jun 30 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Even with digital tech the protector colors can be slightly off. | Jun 30 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Another naturally added defect. | Jun 30 15:48 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem nature also adds watermarks. | Jun 30 15:48 |
| MinceR | ic | Jun 30 15:49 |
| oiaohm | This is what I am mean about watermarks being in plain view. | Jun 30 15:50 |
| MinceR | then again, watermarks become useless without copyright law | Jun 30 15:50 |
| MinceR | because you don't prevent copying, only sue for it | Jun 30 15:50 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Jun 30 15:50 |
| MinceR | you could find a leak but that's a lot less powerful | Jun 30 15:51 |
| oiaohm | You still know from watermarks where to make the last place to release. | Jun 30 15:51 |
| tacone | ok, usual statement on mono. | Jun 30 15:51 |
| oiaohm | So you make the most money MinceR | Jun 30 15:51 |
| MinceR | tacone: ? | Jun 30 15:51 |
| tacone | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2009-June/028469.html | Jun 30 15:52 |
| oiaohm | Copyright removed does not remove that profit gaining option. | Jun 30 15:52 |
| oiaohm | There are reason why picture threaters police the no video cams. | Jun 30 15:52 |
| oiaohm | If they are tracked as being a pirate source they will get movies latter. | Jun 30 15:52 |
| tacone | offlining | Jun 30 15:53 |
| tacone | cheers | Jun 30 15:53 |
| oiaohm | DRM would still allow these kinds of enforcement to exist MinceR | Jun 30 15:53 |
| oiaohm | Its why just removing copyright will basically do nothing MinceR. | Jun 30 15:54 |
| oiaohm | The system will just reshape and keep on doing the same things. | Jun 30 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Remove DRM first then you can think about removing copyright. | Jun 30 15:55 |
| oiaohm | I guess its not the answer you were expecting MinceR | Jun 30 15:56 |
| MinceR | DRM could still be outlawed. | Jun 30 15:56 |
| MinceR | i'm also working. | Jun 30 15:56 |
| oiaohm | Outlaw DRM first. | Jun 30 15:56 |
| oiaohm | Out law it secound you could have a huge stack of DRM protected usless crap. | Jun 30 15:57 |
| MinceR | or i could always go for the anarchist option :> | Jun 30 15:57 |
| MinceR | tacone: i'll read it. | Jun 30 15:57 |
| oiaohm | Copyright is really not a major threat. | Jun 30 15:57 |
| oiaohm | its a pest at worst. | Jun 30 15:58 |
| MinceR | it's a problem though | Jun 30 15:58 |
| oiaohm | Copyright is not a large problem. | Jun 30 15:58 |
| MinceR | if it weren't a problem, we wouldn't need the GPL to subvert its mechanism. | Jun 30 15:58 |
| oiaohm | GPL is curing another problem. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| twitter1 | The GPL is an elegant kludge that sits half way between the paper past and the digital future. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Where people don't want to give back. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Removing copyright you have to replace GPL with something. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Removing DRM you don't have anything to replace it with. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| MinceR | or i'll have to cure the reason for its existence. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| twitter1 | When people understand software freedom, they will demand it in positive terms - software freedom laws rather than copy restriction laws. | Jun 30 15:59 |
| MinceR | we're far from people understanding any kind of freedom | Jun 30 16:00 |
| twitter1 | We see the beginnings of this demand in ODF and open access laws. | Jun 30 16:00 |
| oiaohm | There will be people who will always want to be greedy twitter1 | Jun 30 16:00 |
| twitter1 | We are much closer than you think to an outbreak of common sense. | Jun 30 16:00 |
| oiaohm | GPL keeps a lot of them in line. | Jun 30 16:00 |
| MinceR | i really hope so. | Jun 30 16:00 |
| MinceR | twitter1: why do you think so? | Jun 30 16:01 |
| oiaohm | If you want to remove copyright you have to put up something to replace GPL. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| twitter1 | Non free software, at its core, is a fraud. People will make positive laws to prevent such fraud. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Like a sharing law. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| oiaohm | So greedy people can be pulled into line. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| twitter1 | I think people are understanding the true nature of digital restrictions and non free software. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Its human nature to be greedy. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: or you need to get rid of the practice of stealing. if it isn't widespread then the market can punish it. | Jun 30 16:01 |
| twitter1 | They demand free access to government publications. | Jun 30 16:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: or with the right amount and kind of deregulation, angry people can punish it too :> | Jun 30 16:02 |
| twitter1 | They never wanted and are tired of digital restrictions and other artificial restrictions on sharing their culture. | Jun 30 16:02 |
| oiaohm | Sharing culture is one thing. | Jun 30 16:03 |
| twitter1 | It does not take much to connect those dots and come up with laws to protect a free digital future. | Jun 30 16:03 |
| twitter1 | It takes tremendous effort by the copyright warriors to pretend black is white and that restrictions encourage sharing. | Jun 30 16:03 |
| oiaohm | You agree twitter1 drm has to go first so copyright holders don't just switch to that. | Jun 30 16:03 |
| twitter1 | They spend billions to create this illusion, but people like RMS understood the problems 30 years ago. | Jun 30 16:04 |
| oiaohm | Time has moved on. | Jun 30 16:04 |
| oiaohm | RMS was not dealing with the risk of DRM back then. | Jun 30 16:04 |
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| twitter1 | Creation and distribution are separate issues, copyright confuses them in a way that was suited to the paper past. People are starting to understand the digital present. | Jun 30 16:05 |
| twitter1 | They will demand their freedom. | Jun 30 16:05 |
| twitter1 | bbl | Jun 30 16:05 |
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| schestowitz | http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D1EpnOVJuA8/Ski8zqn7rWI/AAAAAAAACeE/CjWf6cAR_t4/s1600-h/yakuake04.png | Jun 30 16:14 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] celery 1200 obtained from @secretlondon. size of a starship console. running xubuntu 6.06. not bad :-) will prob netbook it. | Jun 30 16:17 | |
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| schestowitz | Ha! | Jun 30 16:40 |
| schestowitz | It turns out MS paid for the 'ODF lunch' | Jun 30 16:40 |
| schestowitz | Confirmed by the jouralist | Jun 30 16:40 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @canen: Firefox 3.5 download stats http://2tu.us/iyw !firefox #fx35 | Jun 30 16:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Migration in Munich is Expanding http://ping.fm/L1B7T | Jun 30 16:47 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Control of Computing as the #1 Reason to GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/CXzue | Jun 30 16:52 | |
| trmanco | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-June/008962.html | Jun 30 16:52 |
| trmanco | they still don't understand | Jun 30 16:52 |
| tacone | unsurprising position | Jun 30 16:53 |
| schestowitz | It's like the 3 monos | Jun 30 16:55 |
| schestowitz | Won't talk, won't hear, won't see | Jun 30 16:55 |
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| trmanco | lol | Jun 30 16:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell and Acer Both Use GNU/Linux in Their Desktop Strategy http://ping.fm/BFBkk | Jun 30 17:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mac OS X Does Not Look Better Than GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/Iq94U | Jun 30 17:02 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Games Galore http://ping.fm/9sbfX and More New Games http://ping.fm/K2Ltn http://ping.fm/Z49rA | Jun 30 17:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.3 Screencast is Released http://ping.fm/Ql8a6 and Killer Apps Reviewed http://ping.fm/YE0Zq http://ping.fm/acxX1 | Jun 30 17:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Children's GNU/Linux Distributions in Review http://ping.fm/SJIII | Jun 30 17:27 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat/Fedora Tribute http://ping.fm/koxld | Jun 30 17:32 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Still Very Popular http://ping.fm/YrvjO , Works for Users http://ping.fm/F9P16 | Jun 30 17:32 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Mint 7 Works Splendidly http://ping.fm/NsnEI | Jun 30 17:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New reviews of Ultimate Edition Linux 2.2 (Maximalist Ubuntu) http://ping.fm/2QQ0q http://ping.fm/ywI1q | Jun 30 17:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell Talks About Its Support of Ubuntu GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/vvKlB | Jun 30 17:37 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Handy tip: tidying the house in humid heat is a good way to make yourself a bit unwell. | Jun 30 17:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i've been using KDE 4.3 in Kubuntu 9.10 alphas. It's really, really nice. | Jun 30 17:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Tal como prometi, http://open-mania.com !firefox #fx35 | Jun 30 17:42 | |
| schestowitz | trmanco is a Firefox enthusiast, methinks | Jun 30 17:43 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, http://open-mania.com | Jun 30 17:43 |
| trmanco | as I promissed | Jun 30 17:43 |
| nicktastic | I always thought compiz looked way better than OS X. | Jun 30 17:43 |
| trmanco | promised | Jun 30 17:43 |
| schestowitz | nicktastic: is does | Jun 30 17:43 |
| schestowitz | nicktastic: the point I was making is that Aqua/Brushed Metal exist for Linux too (shall one love them so much) | Jun 30 17:44 |
| nicktastic | Ah :) | Jun 30 17:44 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: +1 | Jun 30 17:44 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, all the traffic is being redirected to that page | Jun 30 17:44 |
| schestowitz | Mozilla sends you a cake right now | Jun 30 17:44 |
| nicktastic | Mmm <video> | Jun 30 17:44 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, video. BN is full of that | Jun 30 17:44 |
| trmanco | 24 hours | Jun 30 17:45 |
| trmanco | so | Jun 30 17:45 |
| trmanco | I hope to make a slight impact :-P | Jun 30 17:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Will Sub-notebooks Running GNU/Linux be Available for Free? http://ping.fm/xFdi4 | Jun 30 17:47 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: I used KDE4 today. Loved it! | Jun 30 17:47 | |
| trmanco | here is how it look in 3.5 http://i39.tinypic.com/34orqfs.jpg | Jun 30 17:47 |
| trmanco | looks* | Jun 30 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I'm gonna install it in an hour | Jun 30 17:48 |
| schestowitz | Does it scroll OK in BN? | Jun 30 17:48 |
| schestowitz | In daily links, do the Oggs come up all right? | Jun 30 17:48 |
| schestowitz | If not, then I need to modify the CSS | Jun 30 17:48 |
| trmanco | it scrolls alright | Jun 30 17:49 |
| trmanco | give me a link to a video | Jun 30 17:49 |
| schestowitz | BTW, I've just checked Ad bard for the first time (ever). It pays us just $1 per day. That along with hosting might be OK | Jun 30 17:49 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: open "Links: <whatever>" | Jun 30 17:49 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Price of GNU/Linux-based Sub-notebooks Drops to Around $139 http://ping.fm/bC0He | Jun 30 17:52 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i'm now torn between KDE 4.3 and Netbook Remix for the old laptop I just got from @secretlondon today ;-) | Jun 30 17:52 | |
| trmanco | schestowitz, yep works and looks great | Jun 30 17:53 |
| schestowitz | What a relief! | Jun 30 17:55 |
| schestowitz | _Hitchem_ scared me | Jun 30 17:55 |
| schestowitz | *cham | Jun 30 17:55 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 20,000-plus Employees Business Goes to Free Software, GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/BUNhY | Jun 30 17:57 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SourceForge Breaks the 4 Billion Barrier (Downloads) http://ping.fm/bSLx8 | Jun 30 18:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Group Commences the Fight to Shoot Down the ACTA Beast http://ping.fm/GdtJa | Jun 30 18:02 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] BPI Regrets Attack on Napster http://ping.fm/lMGme and The Pirate Bay Acquired for Millions (Deja Vu) http://ping.fm/cf7J3 | Jun 30 18:07 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The SFLC Says "No" to Mono http://ping.fm/ZWIYZ | Jun 30 18:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Employee Benefit at Microsoft Down by a Staggering $1.4 billion http://ping.fm/t4hxu | Jun 30 18:12 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Monuments of Dead Products Build Up http://ping.fm/e1iha | Jun 30 18:17 | |
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| *schestowitz backs up firefox profile | Jun 30 18:21 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shuts Down MSN Web Messenger -- Permanently http://ping.fm/7NXq3 | Jun 30 18:22 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. Firefox 3.5 scrolls better than 3.0. I love it!!! | Jun 30 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | Video works nicely. Nice controls. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/29/freedos-is-now-15/ | Jun 30 18:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Off to pub for date with @nyecamden. Tuesday is Pembury Geek Night! (As is Sunday.) | Jun 30 18:37 | |
| schestowitz | So many plguins are incompatible now | Jun 30 18:45 |
| schestowitz | Hmmmmm...... | Jun 30 18:45 |
| *Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.62.164.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 30 19:01 | |
| Omar87 | Hi everyone! | Jun 30 19:01 |
| Omar87 | Ya know guys? | Jun 30 19:01 |
| Omar87 | As much as I really like how flexible, user-friendly and robust Gnome is, as much as I'm really starting to consider looking for alternatives. | Jun 30 19:03 |
| Omar87 | KDE is unfortunately off my list. | Jun 30 19:03 |
| Omar87 | XFCE is just stupid. | Jun 30 19:03 |
| Omar87 | So now, I'm not sure where to look.. | Jun 30 19:04 |
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| nicktastic | stumpwm ;) | Jun 30 19:12 |
| MinceR | kde3 ;) | Jun 30 19:15 |
| Omar87 | nicktastic: Is it good? | Jun 30 19:16 |
| nicktastic | Omar87: I doubt you'll like it | Jun 30 19:18 |
| schestowitz | e17/fluxbox? | Jun 30 19:18 |
| schestowitz | nicktastic: he jokes | Jun 30 19:18 |
| schestowitz | * Omar87 | Jun 30 19:18 |
| nicktastic | Omar87: A tiling wm designed for lisp programmers | Jun 30 19:18 |
| nicktastic | My favorite wm | Jun 30 19:18 |
| Omar87 | nicktastic: Oh, ok. I see now. | Jun 30 19:19 |
| nicktastic | Inspired by emacs and screen | Jun 30 19:19 |
| nicktastic | I should also mention conkeror, the mozilla-based, programmer-oriented browser inspired by emacs and vi ;) | Jun 30 19:20 |
| Omar87 | Yeah but, Conkeror is not a WM, right? | Jun 30 19:21 |
| nicktastic | Nope | Jun 30 19:21 |
| nicktastic | I just want to plug conkeror | Jun 30 19:21 |
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| fewa | aweesome wm | Jun 30 19:36 |
| fewa | only xcb wm | Jun 30 19:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Firefox 3.5 at the top: http://is.gd/1jmrO #fx35 | Jun 30 19:37 | |
| fewa | trmanco, its firefox35 | Jun 30 19:37 |
| fewa | actually #firefox | Jun 30 19:38 |
| Omar87, I use E16 with KDE 3.5's kicker. This is a nice combination that gives you the best of a light WM and most of what you want KDE 3.5 for. | Jun 30 19:39 | |
| oh, he's gone | Jun 30 19:40 | |
| It's like you need a distribution of them, ha ha. -> (11:02:41 AM) schestowitz: So many plguins are incompatible now | Jun 30 19:41 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is brilliant (about psychics): http://ping.fm/oQyyM | Jun 30 19:42 | |
| This is why I rarely leave Debian's repositories. Too much trouble for too little short term gain. | Jun 30 19:42 | |
| The Debian community solves basic problems very quickly. | Jun 30 19:42 | |
| If there's a problem, there's almost always a Debian way to solve it. | Jun 30 19:43 | |
| nicktastic | Indeed | Jun 30 19:46 |
| nicktastic | I've tried other distros lately but haven't switched because none approach perfection as nearly as Debian. ;) | Jun 30 19:47 |
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| schestowitz | I'm back to 3.0 until plugins regaon compatibility | Jun 30 19:52 |
| nicktastic | flash should work | Jun 30 19:54 |
| nicktastic | That's about the only plugin I use | Jun 30 19:54 |
| nicktastic | Actually the plugin API is pretty much frozen in general, so they should be compatible | Jun 30 19:54 |
| trmanco | http://lists.gpl-violations.org/pipermail/legal/2009-June/001640.html | Jun 30 19:55 |
| schestowitz | Hehe. | Jun 30 19:56 |
| schestowitz | For a moment there I thought it said "Solaris" | Jun 30 19:56 |
| schestowitz | Wouldn't *that* be funny? | Jun 30 19:56 |
| trmanco | http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Changelog | Jun 30 19:57 |
| trmanco | yeah | Jun 30 19:57 |
| trmanco | VB 3.0 is here | Jun 30 19:57 |
| schestowitz | Fast | Jun 30 19:58 |
| nicktastic | fast indeed, though kvm should be faster if your hardware supports it | Jun 30 19:59 |
| nicktastic | hey hey, direct3d support. nice | Jun 30 20:01 |
| schestowitz | For Windows users, I guess.. and gamers | Jun 30 20:01 |
| nicktastic | Yeah, I use Windows in vbox at work | Jun 30 20:01 |
| tacone | now with broken directX support ! | Jun 30 20:09 |
| nicktastic | :P | Jun 30 20:09 |
| nicktastic | experimental ;) | Jun 30 20:09 |
| tacone | now with placebo directX support ;-) | Jun 30 20:10 |
| tacone | not bad btw | Jun 30 20:10 |
| tacone | and hope it's open source | Jun 30 20:10 |
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| fewa | kvm pwns | Jun 30 20:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Exploits Death to Advertise Its Products http://ping.fm/yaQoT | Jun 30 20:27 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft Product Dies: MSN Web Messenger http://ping.fm/FYrFh | Jun 30 20:52 | |
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| *Lich (i=4d6915d4@gateway/web/freenode/x-04f4904d15771a92) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 30 21:01 | |
| Lich | Hello all | Jun 30 21:01 |
| Lich | Anyone here? | Jun 30 21:04 |
| nicktastic | Maybe | Jun 30 21:05 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Jun 30 21:06 |
| Lich | Anyway been following this site for few months :P | Jun 30 21:06 |
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| Lich | Google moto is very nice indeed: Don't be evil | Jun 30 21:07 |
| Lich | Is it me or the Microsoft is that sort of company that if it falls it will pull others with it in ambis? | Jun 30 21:08 |
| schestowitz | Which motto? | Jun 30 21:10 |
| schestowitz | Haha | Jun 30 21:10 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft has a new strategy | Jun 30 21:10 |
| Lich | which one? | Jun 30 21:10 |
| schestowitz | Google is evil, let Bing save us from that "evil" | Jun 30 21:10 |
| schestowitz | That's what the MS PR agents say | Jun 30 21:11 |
| Lich | that is opposite psychology | Jun 30 21:11 |
| Lich | that's* | Jun 30 21:11 |
| schestowitz | It would seem outragous if it were's so funny | Jun 30 21:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft Vice President Jumps Ship, Employee Benefits Take a Dive http://ping.fm/3iQdC | Jun 30 21:12 | |
| schestowitz | *outrageous | Jun 30 21:12 |
| MinceR | so suddenly they aren't "equally evil" anymore? | Jun 30 21:12 |
| Lich | anyway have you heard about Mikerowesoft and Microsoft case? | Jun 30 21:12 |
| Lich | an example of the moto: Money can buy all | Jun 30 21:13 |
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| _Goblin | bonjour, hello, good evening.... | Jun 30 21:15 |
| MinceR | oh hai | Jun 30 21:17 |
| Lich | Hi Goblin | Jun 30 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | _Goblin: vacationing in the other side of the channel? | Jun 30 21:32 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: we have a troll epidemic in BN | Jun 30 21:32 |
| schestowitz | And they don't get attention, so they start stealing people's names | Jun 30 21:32 |
| _Goblin | sorry AFK | Jun 30 21:37 |
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| _Goblin | Roy, is someone using my name? | Jun 30 21:37 |
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| schestowitz | _Goblin: no, mine | Jun 30 21:48 |
| schestowitz | They try to disrupt the site. Some are the same trolls (maybe MS PR agents) from Slashdot. They bully. | Jun 30 21:49 |
| _Goblin | ah | Jun 30 21:51 |
| _Goblin | sorry to hear that... | Jun 30 21:51 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More People Say “No” to Mono, Including the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC) < http://ping.fm/YBfZX > | Jun 30 21:52 | |
| _Goblin | mind you it is a compliment. It means there are no arguments left. | Jun 30 21:52 |
| _Goblin | I see Lin*** are still trying to pimp their 6 member schoolboy forum.... | Jun 30 21:52 |
| _Goblin | I don't know what is more tragic, the fact that they can't get any members or the fact that they can't get anyone to take them seriously... | Jun 30 21:53 |
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| _Goblin | Roy, Just been talking to a UK Bullying Charity. It appears they are using Linux. I've offered my support (for free of course) its a reg charity so obviously they are legit...A good news story that (in their words, in respect of Linux) "FOSS is at the core of our work, its how we support 500k people a year for just £50,000..." | Jun 30 22:01 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: 6 already? | Jun 30 22:02 |
| schestowitz | Wow. One more and they can go to paintball | Jun 30 22:02 |
| _Goblin | :) | Jun 30 22:02 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: does that charity talk about it in public? | Jun 30 22:03 |
| schestowitz | They'd be on Microsoft's 'hit list' | Jun 30 22:03 |
| _Goblin | yep...heres the link on twitter: | Jun 30 22:03 |
| schestowitz | Someone BTW is helping me extract the text from Microsoft's OEM hit list. There is no OCR and it's a big smoking gun | Jun 30 22:03 |
| _Goblin | http://twitter.com/bullyinguk | Jun 30 22:04 |
| _Goblin | In respect of the document Roy...looking forward to reading it! | Jun 30 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Probably after my break | Jun 30 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Check out these search results: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Brad+Silverberg&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8 | Jun 30 22:19 |
| schestowitz | Oh damn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Moving_a_page | Jun 30 22:23 |
| schestowitz | Wrong headline, hard to change | Jun 30 22:23 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @glynmoody Don't Feed the Super-Troll - http://bit.ly/jMDga Intellectual Ventures | Jun 30 22:32 | |
| schestowitz | Average Twitter user has 126 followers, and only 20% of users go via website http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2009/jun/29/twitter-users-average-api-traffic | Jun 30 22:33 |
| schestowitz | The Pacific Isn't the Only Ocean Turning into a Trash Heap < http://www.alternet.org/water/141000/the_pacific_isn't_the_only_ocean_turning_into_a_trash_heap/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet > | Jun 30 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Google has just mailed me a voucher | Jun 30 22:40 |
| schestowitz | Let's see if this can be used to advertise: "Learn about how Novell harms Free Software" | Jun 30 22:40 |
| schestowitz | What a Google scan | Jun 30 22:51 |
| schestowitz | They use vouchers to get people to give them bank details | Jun 30 22:51 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: see bit.ly’s Grand Plans, And Their Inevitable Clash With Digg: Bitly Now http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/06/29/bitlys-grand-plans-and-their-inevitable-clash-with-digg-bitly-now/ | Jun 30 22:55 |
| trmanco | wow | Jun 30 22:57 |
| trmanco | the've started with a simple url shortener | Jun 30 22:58 |
| trmanco | now they want to get into the big business | Jun 30 22:58 |
| MinceR | dungg deserves to have its ass kicked anyway | Jun 30 22:59 |
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| trmanco | dungg | Jun 30 23:01 |
| trmanco | that seems like a nice name for a web app | Jun 30 23:01 |
| schestowitz | Dell Is Working On Pocket Web Gadget http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124630305634469553.html | Jun 30 23:05 |
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| trmanco | "Is Windows Live Mail (WLM) the worst Windows application ever? Jeez, I | Jun 30 23:07 |
| trmanco | thought Outlook Express and Windows Mail for Vista sucked, that was only | Jun 30 23:07 |
| trmanco | the beginning. What an amateur chop job WLM is. Suppose this is our | Jun 30 23:07 |
| trmanco | punishment for not attacking the EU with nukes when they sued Microsoft | Jun 30 23:07 |
| trmanco | for anti-trust." | Jun 30 23:07 |
| trmanco | wow | Jun 30 23:07 |
| schestowitz | China delays internet filter plan < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8126832.stm > | Jun 30 23:12 |
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| nicktastic | "Oh shit, the west realized we ripped off a bunch of code illegally..." | Jun 30 23:18 |
| nicktastic | Hmm do western copyright laws apply in China? | Jun 30 23:19 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1432079/blind-hacker Blind hacker gets 11 years | Jun 30 23:19 |
| nicktastic | My Socrates Note | Jun 30 23:19 |
| ThistleWeb | nicktastic: they do when trade agreements are at stake, and a condition of them is China respecting western corps IP | Jun 30 23:19 |
| nicktastic | Exactly my question, do trade agreements require that they honor western copyrights? | Jun 30 23:20 |
| ThistleWeb | well, western laws don't, but they would have to act under their own laws | Jun 30 23:20 |
| ThistleWeb | they will have a hard time just brushing it off | Jun 30 23:20 |
| ThistleWeb | which will no doubt be some manager wheeled out as a scapegoat | Jun 30 23:21 |
| nicktastic | Yeah, and it is probably embarrassing to them - embarrassment seems to be more important to the Chinese government than abiding by international law. | Jun 30 23:21 |
| ThistleWeb | they've hit hurdles before with international trade agreements hinging on China acting on copyright infringement | Jun 30 23:22 |
| nicktastic | Interesting | Jun 30 23:22 |
| tacone | http://www.osnews.com/story/21750/Global_Gaming_Factory_Acquires_The_Pirate_Bay | Jun 30 23:22 |
| tacone | the pirate bay sold. | Jun 30 23:23 |
| nicktastic | tacone: R.I.P. The Pirate Bay. | Jun 30 23:23 |
| nicktastic | It was fun while it lasted. | Jun 30 23:23 |
| nicktastic | I'm sure they'll be back though | Jun 30 23:23 |
| ThistleWeb | dvdR.I.P. | Jun 30 23:23 |
| nicktastic | As long as they don't spend the rest of their lives in prison | Jun 30 23:23 |
| nicktastic | Their press release was pathetic and naive, though. :\ | Jun 30 23:24 |
| tacone | they plan to put the money into a foundation for freedom of speech | Jun 30 23:24 |
| tacone | so i guess that will be their new work | Jun 30 23:24 |
| nicktastic | Yeah, that's what they say. | Jun 30 23:24 |
| ThistleWeb | they announced a video site recently too, ala youtube | Jun 30 23:24 |
| nicktastic | Forgive my incredulity ;) I've never trusted them. | Jun 30 23:25 |
| tacone | of course that's not going to be charity | Jun 30 23:26 |
| schestowitz | Oxford University Press Endorses Google Book Settlement < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/06/30/oxford-university-press-endorses-google-book-settlement > | Jun 30 23:30 |
| tacone | http://blogs.fsfe.org/adridg/?p=157 mono on planet kde | Jun 30 23:31 |
| tacone | still have to read | Jun 30 23:31 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "A PRIVATE university lecturer from India was charged at the Sessions Court here today with taking a RM800 bribe" http://ping.fm/1SsR2 | Jun 30 23:32 | |
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| schestowitz | FSFE does some filming? http://identi.ca/notice/5859191 | Jun 30 23:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Blu-Ray a Failure? < http://ping.fm/mXCZH > Well, it's defective by design. | Jun 30 23:42 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LinuxTag 2009: Better Bad Drivers than None < http://ping.fm/WaxeJ > | Jun 30 23:52 | |
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