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| yuhong | BTW, for some background on OS/2, here is a good site: | Jul 04 01:10 |
|---|---|---|
| yuhong | http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/ | Jul 04 01:10 |
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| yuhong | BTW, for some background on OS/2, here is a good site: | Jul 04 01:19 |
| yuhong | http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/ | Jul 04 01:19 |
| oiaohm | MS miss treating partners goes back to there first one. Most people are not aware of that. | Jul 04 01:22 |
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| yuhong | MS for example back in 1983 abused the fact that it was writing software for the Mac to gain enough access to Apple to write a clone of Mac called Windows. | Jul 04 01:25 |
| yuhong | Apple in the Win 1.x days didn't care, since that clone was poor. | Jul 04 01:25 |
| yuhong | But 2.x was good enough that it led to a lawsuit from Apple. | Jul 04 01:25 |
| yuhong | MS won only because of a problem in an agreement signed back in the 1.x days. | Jul 04 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Read that ruling more closely. | Jul 04 01:26 |
| yuhong | MS was not the only one to get a lawsuit by Apple BTW, DRI got a lawsuit from Apple for GEM. | Jul 04 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things apple was trying to apply protections on were like recent patent ruling. | Jul 04 01:27 |
| yuhong | DRI lost and ended up have to cripple GEM. | Jul 04 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Like Trash. | Jul 04 01:27 |
| oiaohm | And recycle bin. | Jul 04 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Both are directly taken from real world and made electronic then tried to be protected. | Jul 04 01:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Note to all: How to get "cheap" follows - Engage in a bit of follow friday! How to make yourself appear popular! #microsoft #windows #vista | Jul 04 01:28 | |
| oiaohm | All the need for the recent ruling on patents could have been avoided if someone had bothered reading the apple ruling. | Jul 04 01:28 |
| oiaohm | And followed it | Jul 04 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | some of the API was similar between Windows and the Mac operating system back then | Jul 04 01:29 |
| yuhong | Yep. | Jul 04 01:29 |
| oiaohm | Some of the API in windows was also similar to X11 in both of them. | Jul 04 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | but even before that agreement, a very small portion of the claims were upheld | Jul 04 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | (before the agreement was brought up) | Jul 04 01:30 |
| Balrog_ | the few remaining claims (of Apple) were invalid because of that agreement | Jul 04 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Fonts was a big one where MS lost in that dispute. | Jul 04 01:30 |
| Balrog_ | what about fonts? | Jul 04 01:30 |
| oiaohm | MS has been paying Apple even since. | Jul 04 01:30 |
| yuhong | Links that ruling please. | Jul 04 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Hinting. | Jul 04 01:30 |
| Balrog_ | oh ... is it true that you can't copyright a typeface in the US? | Jul 04 01:30 |
| yuhong | Yep, the war between Type 1 and TrueType. | Jul 04 01:31 |
| Balrog_ | but isn't TrueType partially from MS? | Jul 04 01:31 |
| oiaohm | The hinting system in Truetype is from a old apple hardware system. | Jul 04 01:32 |
| yuhong | Yep, it was actually a partnership between Apple and MS against Adobe's Type 1. | Jul 04 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Apple holds the key patents. | Jul 04 01:32 |
| Balrog_ | though they're set to expire soon | Jul 04 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Not really | Jul 04 01:32 |
| oiaohm | They are hardware patents. | Jul 04 01:32 |
| Balrog_ | hmmm which ones? | Jul 04 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Longer live than software ones. | Jul 04 01:33 |
| oiaohm | All the apple patents covering font hinting. | Jul 04 01:33 |
| Balrog_ | ahh. | Jul 04 01:33 |
| Balrog_ | I heard the software ones are soon expiring | Jul 04 01:34 |
| oiaohm | There is about another 5 years to go on the apple patents. | Jul 04 01:37 |
| oiaohm | so not what you call really soon. | Jul 04 01:37 |
| oiaohm | mp3 is about 2 years off. | Jul 04 01:38 |
| yuhong | http://pages.prodigy.net/michaln/history/os213/index.html | Jul 04 01:38 |
| Balrog_ | hmm I thought it was sooner | Jul 04 01:39 |
| yuhong | "I have read allegations that Microsoft's WLO is a blatant ripoff of Micrografx Mirrors, a similar product developed earlier by Micrografx. Supposedly Microsoft's application division was offered to evaluate Mirrors for potential use in Microsoft products, on the condition that Microsoft systems division doesn't learn the details. Looks like they did - not very surprising given Microsoft's... | Jul 04 01:39 |
| yuhong | ...track record. " | Jul 04 01:39 |
| Balrog_ | looking from http://www.freetype.org/patents.html | Jul 04 01:39 |
| yuhong | Now, thinking about it, both incidents should question the existance of a "chinese wall" inside ms. | Jul 04 01:39 |
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| TinhatGuy | gee, you have to go back to 1983 to hit on MS !!!. thats like last millinium ! | Jul 04 02:05 |
| twitter1 | M$ is rather 20th century. | Jul 04 02:08 |
| twitter1 | ***twitter ignores TinhatGuy, a troll with an annoying name. | Jul 04 02:09 |
| TinhatGuy | sensitive little thing arnt you :) | Jul 04 02:09 |
| TinhatGuy | its amazing how people can come here and make all sorts of wild claims, but when someone questions them they get upset, "Truth, you cant handle the truth"!!! | Jul 04 02:19 |
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| _Hicham_ | which truth? | Jul 04 02:31 |
| TinhatGuy | Sorry, mabey I should of said facts, but the truth is out there !! | Jul 04 02:33 |
| _Hicham_ | which truth? | Jul 04 02:36 |
| TinhatGuy | well there is only one truth, so take your pick. | Jul 04 02:37 |
| yuhong | Right now I am exprimenting with gcc inline asm, which I am new to. | Jul 04 02:43 |
| yuhong | I am starting with the rdtsc instruction. | Jul 04 02:43 |
| _Hicham_ | yuhong : on Linux? | Jul 04 02:45 |
| yuhong | yes. | Jul 04 02:46 |
| _Hicham_ | what distro are u using ? | Jul 04 02:46 |
| yuhong | Ubuntu, and I have written a simple program that executes the rdtsc instruction and measure the difference. | Jul 04 02:46 |
| yuhong | using GCC inline asm. | Jul 04 02:47 |
| _Hicham_ | great | Jul 04 02:47 |
| yuhong | A line from it: | Jul 04 02:48 |
| yuhong | asm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i])); | Jul 04 02:48 |
| yuhong | Output: | Jul 04 02:51 |
| yuhong | asm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i])); | Jul 04 02:51 |
| yuhong | 135 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 108 108 99 | Jul 04 02:51 |
| yuhong | The loop: | Jul 04 02:51 |
| yuhong | for (i=0; i<COUNT; i++) | Jul 04 02:52 |
| yuhong | { | Jul 04 02:52 |
| yuhong | asm ("rdtsc" :"=A" (values[i])); | Jul 04 02:52 |
| yuhong | } | Jul 04 02:52 |
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| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: Are you the same one who did not understand MS licencing that was here before? | Jul 04 02:59 |
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| TinhatGuy | No I understant licenses just fine thanks, but I was the one you were talking too yes. | Jul 04 03:06 |
| TinhatGuy | Its not a matter of understanding anyway, its a matter of what is, lots of things happen that I dont understand, does not make them any more or less real. | Jul 04 03:08 |
| TinhatGuy | Like I dont understand the paranoia over MS or Mono, but that does not make that paranoia any less real, (or damaging). | Jul 04 03:09 |
| TinhatGuy | and are you the guy who did not understand what tying is ? even after providing the link for us to read. ? | Jul 04 03:12 |
| TinhatGuy | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/03/microsoft_open_source_frameworks/ | Jul 04 03:30 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: There are valid tech reasons. | Jul 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | .Net design not really compadible in a Linux system. | Jul 04 03:48 |
| oiaohm | It was designed for PE exectuable based OS's. | Jul 04 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Linux is ELF. Then there are other intergration issues. | Jul 04 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Then there is the simple fact no one can answer the patent status from MS on the .net standard. | Jul 04 03:51 |
| oiaohm | They created the .net standard they should really know if they are want to enforce Patents against it or not TinhatGuy | Jul 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | We are really not asking for much. A simple clear defined public statement on it would make it so simple. Does not help that the head of MS has said other wise a few times either. | Jul 04 03:52 |
| TinhatGuy | all MS is saying, and its obvious, that it is possible to write code that breaks patents using C# JUST like you can with C, ASSM, C++, pascal, forth and any other language you choose. | Jul 04 03:53 |
| TinhatGuy | their statement would be "yes, you can write patent encumbered code in any computer language" . | Jul 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | Sun answered on the core implemented paths. | Jul 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | With java. | Jul 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | Simple statement any patent of thiers used to implement java will not be applied. | Jul 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | To anyone creating a implementation. | Jul 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | Really simple statement by by patent issue. | Jul 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | MS has failed to do this so simple of steps TinhatGuy | Jul 04 03:55 |
| TinhatGuy | if you write a patented .NET type framework in C or java you will still be liable for patent infringement. | Jul 04 03:55 |
| oiaohm | But building a clone of Java implentation you will not get sued from SUN/Orcale over it due to SUN statement. | Jul 04 03:56 |
| oiaohm | ,Net we simply are lacking that statement TinhatGuy | Jul 04 03:56 |
| TinhatGuy | no but building a clone or a patented concept in any languaage will | Jul 04 03:57 |
| oiaohm | So do you need a patent licence from MS to use Mono or not. | Jul 04 03:57 |
| TinhatGuy | what are they going to say ?? | Jul 04 03:57 |
| oiaohm | If you build it independant to Novel is not answered. | Jul 04 03:57 |
| TinhatGuy | all they can say is that YES, you can write code that infringes on patents in any language, | Jul 04 03:58 |
| oiaohm | What is not answering. | Jul 04 03:58 |
| oiaohm | Everyone already knows that fact. | Jul 04 03:58 |
| TinhatGuy | TOMTOM FAT was/is patented, its written in C, so do you now want to strip all C out of Linux ? | Jul 04 03:58 |
| oiaohm | And the patented section is being removed from Linux. | Jul 04 03:59 |
| TinhatGuy | Thats right, so whats the issue with using C#, and yes i do know the issues with .NET because like FAT it may be patent encumbered, so you cannot implement it in any langauge. | Jul 04 03:59 |
| oiaohm | You don't really need any of those patents to build a clone of C do you. | Jul 04 03:59 |
| TinhatGuy | were not talking about building a clone of a computer programming language, | Jul 04 04:00 |
| oiaohm | This case patents MS could hold could be required to build a C# implementation. | Jul 04 04:00 |
| oiaohm | I am talking about the right to build a clone TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:00 |
| oiaohm | And use a clone. | Jul 04 04:00 |
| oiaohm | of the .net framework. | Jul 04 04:00 |
| TinhatGuy | It's about using any computer programming language to implement things that are patent protected. | Jul 04 04:00 |
| oiaohm | The answer over mono wanted is purely over the right to clone it. | Jul 04 04:01 |
| oiaohm | Debian builds there own binaries of mono so they are cloning it. | Jul 04 04:01 |
| oiaohm | There are legal issues here. | Jul 04 04:02 |
| TinhatGuy | we'll you cant, you can build a clone of C#, and y ou can make your own .NET type framework that does the same things, (DB access ect,) as long is you dont breach any patents, so you could "clean room" develop your own .LIX framework. | Jul 04 04:02 |
| TinhatGuy | Yes, mono is a development/programming enviroment, .NET is a set of library frameworks for doing specific jobs. | Jul 04 04:02 |
| oiaohm | So MS can apply any patent they took out when creating .net when implementing a clone because you are not projected? | Jul 04 04:03 |
| TinhatGuy | some of which may be patented, so you do your own, why do you have to make exact copies of MS clean room design it, and dont break patents and your fine, problem solvoed | Jul 04 04:03 |
| oiaohm | Protected. | Jul 04 04:03 |
| oiaohm | Mono is not built in a clean room TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:03 |
| oiaohm | So you are basically saying mono is not usable. | Jul 04 04:04 |
| TinhatGuy | MS developed C#, they then put that in the Open Source world, they also developed .NET USING C# | Jul 04 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Sun developed java too. | Jul 04 04:04 |
| TinhatGuy | they are two different things, its like saying if you can break a patent in C you cannot ever use anything written in C, its just silly | Jul 04 04:05 |
| oiaohm | But Sun provided a clear statement on patents. | Jul 04 04:05 |
| TinhatGuy | good for sun. | Jul 04 04:05 |
| oiaohm | MS failure to do so is the Issue over .net | Jul 04 04:05 |
| oiaohm | Can we trust MS not to decied to sue distributions using mono for patents? | Jul 04 04:05 |
| TinhatGuy | as I said, .net is or could be patented code its just written with C#, MS's statement is its patented and propreitary, but your welcome to use C# and develop your own. | Jul 04 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Does not mean you can use it. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| oiaohm | MS welcomed people using FAT as well. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Then sued latter. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| TinhatGuy | they would have huge trouble sueing as its licensed under the GPL. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| oiaohm | GPL v2 does not cover patents. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| oiaohm | So yes they can sue. | Jul 04 04:07 |
| TinhatGuy | the one i have here does | Jul 04 04:07 |
| oiaohm | GPLv3 does. | Jul 04 04:08 |
| oiaohm | GPLv2 does not. | Jul 04 04:08 |
| TinhatGuy | pretty sure its the same GPL'v2 that everyone else knows, the one good enough for the Linux kernel | Jul 04 04:08 |
| oiaohm | Otherwise lame could be used without requiring a MP3 licence. | Jul 04 04:08 |
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| oiaohm | Linux kernel over 100 000 patents. | Jul 04 04:08 |
| oiaohm | That are licenced to be used. | Jul 04 04:08 |
| TinhatGuy | all the same, if you want me too, ill cut and paste the part of the GPLv2 that related to patents, then you can explain yourself. | Jul 04 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel basically would not exist if it did not have patents licence for use. | Jul 04 04:09 |
| oiaohm | Code working on RCU got a rude shock it was his code. RCU is a IBM patent. its only allowed to be under GPL licences cannot be relicenced to LGPL. | Jul 04 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Yes that Is a Linux kernel developer who got the rude shock. | Jul 04 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers due to the GPLv2 licence have to obey patents. | Jul 04 04:10 |
| oiaohm | And the restrictions the patent holders decide to put on them. | Jul 04 04:11 |
| TinhatGuy | "For example, if a patent" | Jul 04 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Don't bother with the look at the GPLv2 on the Linux kernel. You have not read the mail list to see the thousands and thousands of different restrictions that the Linux kernel developers have to obey. | Jul 04 04:12 |
| oiaohm | Due to patents. | Jul 04 04:12 |
| oiaohm | Patents are no laughing matter. | Jul 04 04:12 |
| TinhatGuy | For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program." | Jul 04 04:13 |
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| oiaohm | Those exist TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:14 |
| oiaohm | Novell agreement with MS is written very much that way. If you are a Novell user MS will not sue you. | Jul 04 04:15 |
| TinhatGuy | thats from GPLv2 | Jul 04 04:15 |
| TinhatGuy | saying if there are patent issues, you cannot license or distribute the software under the GPLv2. | Jul 04 04:16 |
| TinhatGuy | To i have to explain the GPL to you ? | Jul 04 04:16 |
| oiaohm | What means Novell should be able to answer question. | Jul 04 04:17 |
| oiaohm | Also not all of mono is GPLv2 | Jul 04 04:17 |
| oiaohm | Lot was change to a MIT licence without that protection. | Jul 04 04:17 |
| oiaohm | Reason why pointing at the Linux kernel is invalid. | Jul 04 04:18 |
| TinhatGuy | all of Mono is GPLv2 and MIT, 100% is what you have to check on the checkbox when you install it. infact it is pure GPLv2 on the downloaed software and agreement | Jul 04 04:18 |
| oiaohm | MIT does not require you to display the agreement. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| porter | Guess what? Nobody but Linux geeks cares. People want programs that work. They are not interested in some religious war. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| oiaohm | MIT sections are not protected by GPLv2 in any way. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| neighborlee | porter, religious war to you maybe..not to those that really care and use linux. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| TinhatGuy | its still licensed under the GPL, and you can still use that GPL to defend yourself as it states that it wont have patents or it cant be shipped. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| porter | I'm serious | Jul 04 04:19 |
| oiaohm | porter: people building devices car if they can sue. | Jul 04 04:19 |
| TinhatGuy | say what you like, thats the facts | Jul 04 04:19 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: the api is not. | Jul 04 04:20 |
| porter | The facts are Windows is cleaning Linux's clock despite piles of garbage like Vista | Jul 04 04:20 |
| neighborlee | TinhatGuy, just ask ecma..im sure they'd be happy to provide you a ahem..license to use it ,,maybe not'' | Jul 04 04:20 |
| neighborlee | and lets not get started talking about patents... | Jul 04 04:20 |
| oiaohm | Depends what market porter | Jul 04 04:20 |
| neighborlee | especially not for ONE app. | Jul 04 04:20 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 04 04:21 |
| porter | Patents can be good. Patents can be bad. Discuss? | Jul 04 04:21 |
| oiaohm | MS is losing in the high end. | Jul 04 04:21 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, easily | Jul 04 04:21 |
| porter | Servers MS is getting killed. | Jul 04 04:21 |
| oiaohm | MS is not really gaining grip in the embed. | Jul 04 04:21 |
| TinhatGuy | well like linus torvalds, I trust and respect the GPL either version, if you stop doing that what will happen to the backbone of FOSS ? | Jul 04 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Linux is gaining grip there. | Jul 04 04:21 |
| porter | I respect authority and ownership. | Jul 04 04:21 |
| oiaohm | Linus torvalds has the Linux foundation that provides legal support to developers to understand patent restrictions around the linux kernel at no charage to the developers commerical or other wise. | Jul 04 04:22 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: You really need to look closer at Mono if you do you will find its multi licence prick. | Jul 04 04:23 |
| porter | And that is a major problem, perception wise with Linux. It scares people away | Jul 04 04:23 |
| TinhatGuy | so he's a responsible citizen, abiding by the law, thats just swell. | Jul 04 04:23 |
| oiaohm | And is basically useless without the MIT parts. | Jul 04 04:23 |
| TinhatGuy | ive got the mono license right here, and its word for word the GPLv2 | Jul 04 04:24 |
| oiaohm | http://www.mono-project.com/Licensing << read TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:25 |
| oiaohm | The class libraries are released under the terms of the MIT X11 (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.html) license. | Jul 04 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Class libraries most .net programs depend on to operate. | Jul 04 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Without them nothing basically works TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:25 |
| TinhatGuy | yes, so what you have to do is write your, or would you like them to write everything for you, and send you a binary ?? oh wait (they allready do). | Jul 04 04:27 |
| oiaohm | Not for every platform TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:27 |
| TinhatGuy | whats wrong with writing your own stuff, using C# or whatever you like, you know innovate | Jul 04 04:27 |
| tessier | http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/001283.html | Jul 04 04:27 |
| tessier | Brilliant indictment of MS | Jul 04 04:27 |
| tessier | Open source software comes in only one edition: AWESOEM | Jul 04 04:28 |
| tessier | AWESOME | Jul 04 04:28 |
| tessier | too | Jul 04 04:28 |
| oiaohm | Also read there gplv2 state ment on embeding in devices TinhatGuy. | Jul 04 04:28 |
| oiaohm | The C# compiler is dual-licensed under the MIT/X11 license and the GNU General Public License (http://www.opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license.html) (GPL). << is also another important watch. | Jul 04 04:29 |
| oiaohm | As they replace bits in the main engine they are slowly doing away with the GPLv2 | Jul 04 04:29 |
| oiaohm | So yes in future it could be completely not protected by GPL. | Jul 04 04:29 |
| TinhatGuy | so what ? | Jul 04 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Then you don't have patent protection at all. | Jul 04 04:32 |
| oiaohm | We want it resolved now. | Jul 04 04:32 |
| oiaohm | That simple. | Jul 04 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Remember at one point it all was GPL or LGPL. | Jul 04 04:33 |
| oiaohm | No MIT in mix. | Jul 04 04:33 |
| porter | I write code for Linux, I use certain libraries. Do I have to give my code away? It's a mess. | Jul 04 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Really. | Jul 04 04:33 |
| oiaohm | You have not read the legal paper work on it. | Jul 04 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Dynamic linking to GPL no you don't have to give it away its a indenpendant work porter. | Jul 04 04:34 |
| porter | the perception in the industry is yes. I must give my code away | Jul 04 04:34 |
| oiaohm | Only idiot sections of the industry. | Jul 04 04:34 |
| porter | it's the confusion factor either way | Jul 04 04:34 |
| TinhatGuy | if you write C code or C++ with GCC and you use GCC's libraries you are not tied or held to the GPL you can license it anyway you want. | Jul 04 04:35 |
| porter | no real world sections | Jul 04 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Same ones who get done for breaching other licence agreements in time normally porter | Jul 04 04:35 |
| oiaohm | Real world has a lot of idiots. | Jul 04 04:35 |
| porter | Breaches occur all the time, that's a given | Jul 04 04:35 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: GCC has extention in there licence so you don't breach. | Jul 04 04:35 |
| TinhatGuy | its totally allowed and legal to write proprietary code using Free tools and libs | Jul 04 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Allowing more freedom can be embedded in GPL licences. | Jul 04 04:36 |
| porter | Assuming you know where to look and take the time to decipher it | Jul 04 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Any software source aquire required company to read and obey licence. | Jul 04 04:36 |
| porter | developers are at the bottom of the food chain. Suits make the decisions. they are afraid of Linux | Jul 04 04:37 |
| oiaohm | This can be NDA protected source code or open source. | Jul 04 04:37 |
| oiaohm | If upper staff are idiots there is nothing you can really do. | Jul 04 04:37 |
| TinhatGuy | go to the FSF web site, and read RMS's Q&A on the GPL, he explains it there that you can write proprietray code using GCC and Gcc libs. | Jul 04 04:37 |
| oiaohm | They will most likely be the same idiots who break a NDA. | Jul 04 04:37 |
| porter | you keep calling everyone an idiot. to me that says you have no clue other than your agenda | Jul 04 04:38 |
| oiaohm | and say something public the NDA did not approve. | Jul 04 04:38 |
| porter | the public hates linux | Jul 04 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Not everyone. | Jul 04 04:38 |
| oiaohm | I have worked with lots of companies that have great licence policies. | Jul 04 04:38 |
| TinhatGuy | most dont even know what it is, | Jul 04 04:38 |
| oiaohm | They have no problems working with open source in products. | Jul 04 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Or NDA aquired sources. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | The ones who don't have good policy and staff managing normally end up out of business. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Due to higher costs. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | And legal screw ups. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Its that simple. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| TinhatGuy | or making $4 billion per month or more ! | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Public does not really hate Linux. | Jul 04 04:39 |
| oiaohm | MS uses BSD and GPL code in places. | Jul 04 04:40 |
| oiaohm | And legally obeys the licences. | Jul 04 04:40 |
| TinhatGuy | no they dont, they just dont have a clue what it is, | Jul 04 04:40 |
| oiaohm | They do. | Jul 04 04:40 |
| porter | linux netbooks were side by side with Windows netbooks. guess which version won? | Jul 04 04:40 |
| TinhatGuy | then again, ask them what OS they use, you normally get "I dont know". | Jul 04 04:40 |
| porter | true,,,tin | Jul 04 04:40 |
| porter | they think the os is just another program, like AOL | Jul 04 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Could MS maintain there OS price in the Netbook war. | Jul 04 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Answer no porter. | Jul 04 04:41 |
| oiaohm | MS lost. | Jul 04 04:41 |
| porter | linux is free. microsoft is not. | Jul 04 04:41 |
| oiaohm | Market share is not everything. | Jul 04 04:41 |
| porter | yes it is | Jul 04 04:41 |
| porter | if you want to survive | Jul 04 04:42 |
| oiaohm | MS XP on netbooks is basically free. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| TinhatGuy | you say lost, but selling lots of netbooks with a small profit for each one, its better than selling millions of netbooks and making nothing off each one. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| oiaohm | MS changes about 25 dollars for XP. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| porter | linux nb were first by about 3 months lead time | Jul 04 04:42 |
| porter | linux is still free | Jul 04 04:42 |
| oiaohm | And will give you 35 dollars for puting MS Office trial on. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| TinhatGuy | if its basically free, what then differentiates it from FOSS ? | Jul 04 04:42 |
| porter | on a netbook? | Jul 04 04:42 |
| oiaohm | So XP is running at -10 dollars. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| oiaohm | That cannot last for ever. | Jul 04 04:42 |
| porter | what differentiates it is people want Windows not Linux | Jul 04 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Most people truly did not care. | Jul 04 04:43 |
| oiaohm | As long as it worked. | Jul 04 04:43 |
| porter | Vista after 3 months had a market share better than Linux after 15 years. | Jul 04 04:43 |
| TinhatGuy | yes, thats $25 more then Linux will get, and more people will buy the product with XP on it, | Jul 04 04:43 |
| porter | and vista sux | Jul 04 04:43 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: MS Office were MS pays 35 dollars to the OEM to install it. | Jul 04 04:43 |
| oiaohm | So its -10 dollars. | Jul 04 04:43 |
| TinhatGuy | Yes, Vista is the failure FOSS/Linux would just love to have. | Jul 04 04:44 |
| There are more gnu/linux developers than windows developers, ha ha. | Jul 04 04:44 | |
| There are more commercial linux developers than Vista developers. | Jul 04 04:44 | |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel was never targeted at desktop. | Jul 04 04:44 |
| but I have to agree, Vista is the pits, windows is like that. | Jul 04 04:44 | |
| oiaohm | It was suppising that it could get any desktop market share. | Jul 04 04:44 |
| oiaohm | Thinking it was not configured for it. | Jul 04 04:44 |
| TinhatGuy | mabey so, but it takes alot of effort to constantly re-invent the wheel. | Jul 04 04:45 |
| oiaohm | That really shows how bad Vista was. | Jul 04 04:45 |
| oiaohm | People were choosing a non desktop OS over it. | Jul 04 04:45 |
| no one has to reinvent any wheels in the free software world | Jul 04 04:45 | |
| that kind of change is what non free software does | Jul 04 04:45 | |
| porter | Windows 7 is going to pound the final nails in Linux's desktop coffin. | Jul 04 04:45 |
| oiaohm | The netbook take off work up intel and others that updated to support desktop function could be profitable. | Jul 04 04:46 |
| yeah, right, ha ha | Jul 04 04:46 | |
| Vista was supposed to do that, remember? | Jul 04 04:46 | |
| TinhatGuy | they dont have to reinvent, but they constantly do, | Jul 04 04:46 |
| oiaohm | DRI2 and KMS alterations. | Jul 04 04:46 |
| porter | if Linux couldn't take advantage of the shit Vista, it's completey impotent | Jul 04 04:46 |
| oiaohm | Bring graphical side of Linux desktop level. | Jul 04 04:46 |
| I'll have to ignore you now, porter. later | Jul 04 04:47 | |
| oiaohm | Merge of realtime tree also brings audio up to desktop level. | Jul 04 04:47 |
| oiaohm | Intergration of cuse in 2.6.31 allows closed source drivers on Linux. | Jul 04 04:47 |
| porter | Twatter? You have about 200 nyms on /. you're a phony | Jul 04 04:47 |
| TinhatGuy | didnt they just re-invent FAT recently, and what about every distro, how many IDE's do you have, desktops a plenty, no you dont re-invent over and over. | Jul 04 04:47 |
| oiaohm | That are kernel independant. | Jul 04 04:47 |
| oiaohm | So soon you will be facing a desktop class kernel in Linux. | Jul 04 04:47 |
| oiaohm | That will create interesting. | Jul 04 04:48 |
| neighborlee | porter, you vastly understimate the power of foss, and the zero cost in using it ;) | Jul 04 04:48 |
| porter | Nobody cares....that's the problem with Linux users, they get involved in all the gisly details but miss the forest because of the trees | Jul 04 04:48 |
| oiaohm | Also Windows 7 needs 4 times as much as Linux to run well. | Jul 04 04:48 |
| neighborlee | porter, compare that to the cost of owing windows....give me a break.... | Jul 04 04:48 |
| porter | I'm in good company because Linux has yet to hit the 1 percent desktop barrier. | Jul 04 04:48 |
| porter | Windows 7 is overpriced IMHO,. Linux is only free if you have the time | Jul 04 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Once the kernel is desktop class. The rest will improve. | Jul 04 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Fairly quickly. | Jul 04 04:49 |
| TinhatGuy | what did I work out, Win XP cost me about $1.40 per month amortized over the time of use | Jul 04 04:49 |
| porter | The kernel is the best part. Fix X, Sound, Cups etc | Jul 04 04:49 |
| TinhatGuy | and Win7 is faster than XP on the same hardware. | Jul 04 04:49 |
| porter | the kernel is solid | Jul 04 04:49 |
| oiaohm | X and sound fixs depend on kernel fixes. | Jul 04 04:49 |
| porter | Nope. Win7 is slower IMHO. It's still beta though | Jul 04 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Cups is the same on Linux as apple. | Jul 04 04:50 |
| porter | Get rid of the 10 different Linux soud systems | Jul 04 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Basically have. | Jul 04 04:50 |
| porter | Get rid of the 8 different package managers | Jul 04 04:50 |
| porter | Settle on one GUI | Jul 04 04:50 |
| porter | that works | Jul 04 04:50 |
| oiaohm | Packaging most of that will be one GUI. | Jul 04 04:50 |
| oiaohm | This is your problem. | Jul 04 04:51 |
| TinhatGuy | and get ontop of the piles of bugs in the system | Jul 04 04:51 |
| oiaohm | Everything you are talking about the merges are under way. | Jul 04 04:51 |
| porter | If linux wants to compete it has to eliminate the fragmentation and concentrate on the good parts | Jul 04 04:51 |
| TinhatGuy | when though, its been over 17 years allready, | Jul 04 04:51 |
| oiaohm | That is happening porter. | Jul 04 04:51 |
| porter | that is a good thing oiohm | Jul 04 04:51 |
| porter | oiaohm | Jul 04 04:51 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, I wont disagree that yes, linux can cost you time,,not all distros are created equal. | Jul 04 04:52 |
| oiaohm | You basically don't have your eyes on what is going on. | Jul 04 04:52 |
| oiaohm | Linux really did not lose the netbook war. | Jul 04 04:52 |
| oiaohm | Lot of netbook makers produced devices that were hybred. | Jul 04 04:53 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, what do you mean,,desktop class kernel ? | Jul 04 04:53 |
| oiaohm | Linux/Windows. | Jul 04 04:53 |
| oiaohm | A kernel when the X11 crashes does not leave users sitting with a froson screen neighborlee | Jul 04 04:53 |
| neighborlee | oh ic | Jul 04 04:54 |
| neighborlee | yes,,, | Jul 04 04:54 |
| oiaohm | A kernel that can process audio and video to the point of having the synced. | Jul 04 04:54 |
| neighborlee | crashing is bad when user is left in dust | Jul 04 04:54 |
| TinhatGuy | or you can just use an OS that does not crash | Jul 04 04:54 |
| oiaohm | Basically things that make a desktop users live painful. | Jul 04 04:54 |
| neighborlee | that or...asked to manuallly send in a 'crash report' | Jul 04 04:54 |
| neighborlee | thats just abysmal | Jul 04 04:54 |
| oiaohm | No such thing as a OS that will never crash on the desktop TinhatGuy | Jul 04 04:54 |
| oiaohm | Not yet at least. | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | exactly | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | not yet | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | im not sure ever ;) | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | OS's will always push limits...as will users that use them ;) | Jul 04 04:55 |
| oiaohm | If bad block detection in ram can get into Linux kernel that might be come possiable. | Jul 04 04:55 |
| TinhatGuy | well, you can get very close, I cant remember the last time I had a PC crash on me. | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | and those that would try to bring them down :) | Jul 04 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Ie Linux will get the means to run with bad ram. | Jul 04 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Sometime in the next 12 months. | Jul 04 04:55 |
| neighborlee | TinhatGuy, close yes | Jul 04 04:56 |
| oiaohm | Every time a bad block happens in ram it just never gets used again. | Jul 04 04:56 |
| porter | no os is perfect. bad ram will affect different os in different ways | Jul 04 04:56 |
| oiaohm | So increasing uptime. | Jul 04 04:56 |
| TinhatGuy | and VMS clusters can have uptimes in the decades no problems. | Jul 04 04:56 |
| oiaohm | With hot swap ram support you will be able to replace the ram. | Jul 04 04:56 |
| porter | i find linux to be a great ram tester though. better than windows | Jul 04 04:56 |
| TinhatGuy | what your saying is a fault in hardware can cause software to fail, well sure it can | Jul 04 04:57 |
| neighborlee | oiaohm, sound great | Jul 04 04:57 |
| neighborlee | sounds | Jul 04 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel will get more and more resistant to hardware caused falures. | Jul 04 04:57 |
| oiaohm | Due to going into the embeded markets. | Jul 04 04:57 |
| oiaohm | It is kinda a requirement. | Jul 04 04:57 |
| neighborlee | there is that | Jul 04 04:57 |
| porter | what is needed, for desktops, is chipkill technology like IBM has | Jul 04 04:57 |
| TinhatGuy | VMS clusters can be hot swapped, so you can upgrade server by server and still have 100% uptime. | Jul 04 04:58 |
| oiaohm | What do you mean chipkill porter | Jul 04 04:58 |
| porter | IBM has chipkill technology where if a certin "dimm" fails, they can fence it off, down to the chip level, and the system keeps running | Jul 04 04:59 |
| TinhatGuy | I think its something to do with detecting and isolating faulty RAM locations | Jul 04 04:59 |
| oiaohm | Ok Error Checking and Correcting (ECC) computer memory that is what I am talking about being built in porter | Jul 04 04:59 |
| oiaohm | IBM has already agreed for Linux to use the patent they have on that. | Jul 04 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Its just getting the code in place. | Jul 04 05:00 |
| porter | yes they have. the chipkill works with AIX of Linux | Jul 04 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Also there will be a software form. | Jul 04 05:00 |
| porter | or linux | Jul 04 05:01 |
| porter | sorry | Jul 04 05:01 |
| oiaohm | On linux. | Jul 04 05:01 |
| porter | that too :) | Jul 04 05:01 |
| oiaohm | just keep the bad zone allocated not to use. | Jul 04 05:01 |
| porter | yes, at the chip, not necessarily the DIMM, level..that makes a difference | Jul 04 05:01 |
| oiaohm | Linux has a rep as being a unstable desktop due to X11 issues. | Jul 04 05:02 |
| porter | although it could be a dimm as well | Jul 04 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Hotswap ram that Linux can do now. | Jul 04 05:02 |
| porter | X11 has tons of features. the problem is most people do not know how to use them | Jul 04 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Plus allocation constol. | Jul 04 05:02 |
| oiaohm | Gives kinda equal. | Jul 04 05:02 |
| TinhatGuy | failure rate of hardware is almost zero these days, | Jul 04 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Just not as fine as IBM circuits. | Jul 04 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Lol TinhatGuy | Jul 04 05:03 |
| oiaohm | Hardware failures make up a large ammount of my work. | Jul 04 05:03 |
| TinhatGuy | My RAM has a lifetime warrantee, i have not had RAM failed in memory :D | Jul 04 05:03 |
| oiaohm | I really like the lifetime. | Jul 04 05:04 |
| oiaohm | I had 20 dead ram sticks at one point. | Jul 04 05:04 |
| TinhatGuy | ofcourse it does fail, and people do stupid things and let fans stop and clog up and so on, but a well maintained PC as you know will last a very long time | Jul 04 05:04 |
| oiaohm | In a row and that was only about 2 months ago. | Jul 04 05:04 |
| porter | hardware still fails. the future, according to IBM is to build enough redundency into the product to eliminate outeages for the life of the hardware | Jul 04 05:04 |
| oiaohm | cgroups are also another Linux plan around hardware failure. | Jul 04 05:05 |
| TinhatGuy | did you ever think the Mobo you were plugging them into was killing them ?? :D | Jul 04 05:05 |
| porter | yes | Jul 04 05:05 |
| oiaohm | Allow running applications to be transfered to another machine. | Jul 04 05:05 |
| porter | ibm calls it remote mirroring | Jul 04 05:05 |
| porter | or clustering depending upon product line | Jul 04 05:05 |
| oiaohm | TinhatGuy: my case it was not Mobo. The luck of batches. | Jul 04 05:06 |
| oiaohm | All ram has a particular operational life. | Jul 04 05:06 |
| porter | i feel your pain tin :) | Jul 04 05:06 |
| TinhatGuy | geez most chips are tested and QA before dispatch, I would seriously consider your supplier, and if the RAM is counterfeit cheapies | Jul 04 05:07 |
| oiaohm | 20 dead ram from 20 different machines all failed the same day TinhatGuy all from the same batch. | Jul 04 05:07 |
| oiaohm | All had run for about the same ammount of time. | Jul 04 05:07 |
| oiaohm | Basically wore out. | Jul 04 05:07 |
| TinhatGuy | Yes, Im aware of the failure modes of transistors and IC's. | Jul 04 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Defects in ram can take ages to turn up. | Jul 04 05:08 |
| oiaohm | These were all even in the same section of stick. | Jul 04 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Causing the onboard video cards to stop rendering. | Jul 04 05:09 |
| oiaohm | Lifetime ram does not mean it will run for a lifetime. They hope it will. | Jul 04 05:09 |
| TinhatGuy | did they have a little QC blue sticker on them, and did you follow full anti-static procedures ? | Jul 04 05:09 |
| oiaohm | Yep | Jul 04 05:10 |
| TinhatGuy | all ics' and ram are factory tested before dispatch, and they have very strict QA procedures. | Jul 04 05:10 |
| oiaohm | And maker of ram confirmed they were a bad bath. | Jul 04 05:10 |
| oiaohm | batch. | Jul 04 05:10 |
| oiaohm | That had slipped threw. | Jul 04 05:10 |
| oiaohm | Only turned up when they started failing on mass. | Jul 04 05:10 |
| TinhatGuy | I would be asking serious questions to your supplier then in that case. | Jul 04 05:11 |
| oiaohm | It happens. | Jul 04 05:11 |
| TinhatGuy | not normally no it does not. | Jul 04 05:11 |
| oiaohm | When made there were in tollerage | Jul 04 05:11 |
| oiaohm | heat and age on chips have effects. | Jul 04 05:11 |
| oiaohm | Not always the most predictable. | Jul 04 05:12 |
| TinhatGuy | there is still no excuse to ship that many faulty products to a customer, or OEM. | Jul 04 05:12 |
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| oiaohm | Ram will remain for a long time to come one of the most common failure points. | Jul 04 05:13 |
| oiaohm | Large the ram gets the higher the risk of a defect. | Jul 04 05:13 |
| TinhatGuy | your a computer tech, and you fix more ram that Power supplies ?? | Jul 04 05:14 |
| TinhatGuy | if your having so much trouble with RAM I suggest you find a new and reputable supplier for RAM. | Jul 04 05:14 |
| oiaohm | Ram and power supplies both are common. | Jul 04 05:14 |
| oiaohm | Nothing is wrong with my supplier. Its just number of machines I deal with. | Jul 04 05:15 |
| oiaohm | I have to come accross bad batches from time to time. | Jul 04 05:16 |
| TinhatGuy | no problems if your happy getting 40 odd faulty parts from your supplier who am I to complain. | Jul 04 05:16 |
| oiaohm | The machines run for 2 years straight TinhatGuy | Jul 04 05:17 |
| oiaohm | Not under light load either. | Jul 04 05:17 |
| TinhatGuy | 2 years is actually quite a short period of time, | Jul 04 05:17 |
| oiaohm | They did about equal to 5 years normal desktop usage. | Jul 04 05:18 |
| oiaohm | So long enough lot of people will never know about the defective batch. | Jul 04 05:18 |
| TinhatGuy | I work on systems that have been working 24/7 and very busy, with uptimes in years and years, 5 to 10 years is not uncommon. | Jul 04 05:19 |
| oiaohm | But it don't always work that way. | Jul 04 05:19 |
| oiaohm | Sooner or latter you will have the bad luck of a bad batch of stuff. | Jul 04 05:19 |
| oiaohm | Thinking it was only 40 odd parts out of about 100 000 parts. | Jul 04 05:21 |
| oiaohm | Its not bad odds. | Jul 04 05:21 |
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| oiaohm | OS developing resitance to hardware issues means less risk of a bad batch causing a problem. So more you can bet on the 5 to 10 or more. | Jul 04 05:25 |
| TinhatGuy | thats atrocious odds, at those odds, every CPU chip would fail | Jul 04 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Had that about 12 years back. | Jul 04 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly fail. | Jul 04 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Not do maths right. Leading to stack of processing having to be redone. | Jul 04 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things don't work right and people don't notice either. | Jul 04 05:29 |
| oiaohm | Note about 100 000 parts was a single order. | Jul 04 05:32 |
| oiaohm | Between power supplies and everything else only having 40 things play up with shipping and other things in mess it went quite well. | Jul 04 05:32 |
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| wizz | waaa | Jul 04 06:16 |
| wizz | so quiet | Jul 04 06:16 |
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| Lns | blarp | Jul 04 06:21 |
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| oiaohm | ? | Jul 04 06:29 |
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| twitter1 | Asus dumps GNU/Linux http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/asus-dumps-linux-from-the-eee-1270 | Jul 04 07:05 |
| twitter1 | BS article. Roy has covered M$'s attack on this one. | Jul 04 07:06 |
| twitter1 | but the news is the same. | Jul 04 07:07 |
| neighborlee | ouch | Jul 04 07:12 |
| oiaohm | The game is not over. | Jul 04 07:17 |
| oiaohm | Asus started something. | Jul 04 07:18 |
| TinhatGuy | what was his comment, he said somthing like " I would love to ship with Linux, but we have to sell our computers". | Jul 04 07:19 |
| TinhatGuy | *Sell | Jul 04 07:20 |
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| neighborlee | it would be nice to know why users preferred XP | Jul 04 07:22 |
| neighborlee | I can guess, but-- | Jul 04 07:23 |
| TinhatGuy | you would be right as well im sure. | Jul 04 07:24 |
| ziggyfish | it's not that they preferred XP it's that they had no other choice | Jul 04 07:25 |
| neighborlee | that isn't what article ssaid | Jul 04 07:26 |
| neighborlee | said | Jul 04 07:26 |
| ziggyfish | neighborlee, what article? | Jul 04 07:26 |
| neighborlee | asus | Jul 04 07:26 |
| ziggyfish | only just joined, URL = ? | Jul 04 07:26 |
| neighborlee | oh - | Jul 04 07:27 |
| neighborlee | Asus dumps GNU/Linux http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/asus-dumps-linux-from-the-eee-1270 | Jul 04 07:27 |
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| twitter1 | Search BN for Xandros and Asus to see what M$ did to both. | Jul 04 07:44 |
| twitter1 | Bing burns down the house, http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10279084-93.html | Jul 04 07:45 |
| twitter1 | site does not load for me. | Jul 04 07:45 |
| neighborlee | eek gad ;0-- | Jul 04 07:46 |
| neighborlee | oh the irony ;0 | Jul 04 07:46 |
| twitter1 | Another page does load, says AdHost was also knocked out. I wonder if this is why many M$ centric web sites have been very slow to load. | Jul 04 07:49 |
| twitter1 | garbage hangs on ad serving java script? | Jul 04 07:49 |
| twitter1 | http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/407837.html | Jul 04 07:50 |
| twitter1 | no fancy weather maps, TV weather guys dropped back to pen and paper drawings. | Jul 04 07:50 |
| twitter1 | should have simply projected weather.gov on a wall. | Jul 04 07:51 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jul 04 07:56 |
| twitter1 | Nifty gadgets on the way. http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/407837.html | Jul 04 07:56 |
| neighborlee | classic...thats just too good ;) | Jul 04 07:56 |
| neighborlee | gadgets ? | Jul 04 07:57 |
| twitter1 | ah, wrong link. | Jul 04 07:57 |
| twitter1 | Crunchpad article | Jul 04 07:58 |
| twitter1 | http://venturebeat.com/2009/07/03/techcrunch-founder-launches-hardware-startup/ | Jul 04 07:58 |
| twitter1 | basically, the laptop from 2001 a Space Odyssey | Jul 04 07:59 |
| twitter1 | if you get M$ out of the way, these things are easy to do and work well | Jul 04 08:00 |
| twitter1 | kind of like GPS receivers - basically GNU/Linux PDAs with maps in them. | Jul 04 08:00 |
| twitter1 | M$ managed to retard these kinds of applications for 10 years. | Jul 04 08:01 |
| neighborlee | I love this kind of stuff | Jul 04 08:01 |
| neighborlee | to heck with papers....the future is news on a roll in your pocket ;) | Jul 04 08:01 |
| twitter1 | I remember people telling me that Palm PDAs could do all of this. | Jul 04 08:01 |
| neighborlee | like those new devices coming out soon I read about last year'ish in scientific magazine | Jul 04 08:01 |
| twitter1 | Zaurus basically did it back in 2001 or so. | Jul 04 08:01 |
| twitter1 | Now everyone has got these ARM devices. There should be a flood of them, MIPS and other stuff soon enough. | Jul 04 08:02 |
| twitter1 | Ick, an InformationWeek article was so toxic it blew up NetSurf. | Jul 04 08:03 |
| neighborlee | http://www.talktogadgets.com/2008/08/03/nokia-9900-concept-a-flexible-roll-up-touch-screen/ < this might be what I was thinking about | Jul 04 08:07 |
| neighborlee | or at least simiklar | Jul 04 08:07 |
| neighborlee | similar | Jul 04 08:07 |
| twitter1 | nifty idea | Jul 04 08:09 |
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| trmanco | schestowitz, was right about reddit | Jul 04 09:24 |
| trmanco | have a look at this | Jul 04 09:24 |
| trmanco | http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/8y1fr/mono_developer_uses_fword_to_abuse_rms/ | Jul 04 09:24 |
| trmanco | up votes12 | Jul 04 09:24 |
| trmanco | down votes12 | Jul 04 09:24 |
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| Omar871 | Hi | Jul 04 10:20 |
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| trmanco | hello Omar871 | Jul 04 10:57 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] [trmanco.com] Chromium gets native GTK theme: Chromium, also known as Google Chrome, is under heav.. http://tinyurl.com/nxdm3y | Jul 04 11:48 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Sam gets door-to-door religious evangelists a beauty: http://mirrorshard.livejournal.com/178778.html | Jul 04 11:48 | |
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| wallclimber | McAfee false-positive glitch fells PCs worldwide - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/03/mcafee_false_positive_glitch/ | Jul 04 15:14 |
| wallclimber | I sure don't miss having to deal with crappy anti-virus programs... | Jul 04 15:15 |
| wallclimber | but I've never used Mcafee anyway | Jul 04 15:16 |
| Eruaran | suddenly everyone wants ubuntu | Jul 04 15:16 |
| Eruaran | I got people coming in every week now | Jul 04 15:17 |
| Eruaran | "can i haz ubuntu" | Jul 04 15:17 |
| wallclimber | I run Ubuntu, but I'm looking for alternatives | Jul 04 15:17 |
| Eruaran | Its impressive | Jul 04 15:17 |
| Eruaran | people dont seem really phased by the Win7 hype | Jul 04 15:17 |
| wallclimber | I had a talk with my son last week, he loves his games, he says the gaming forums are pushing Win7 like crazy | Jul 04 15:18 |
| Eruaran | Valve are going to release Steam for linux | Jul 04 15:19 |
| wallclimber | gamers seem as resistant to change though | Jul 04 15:19 |
| Eruaran | depends on what kind of gamer | Jul 04 15:20 |
| wallclimber | my son runs ubuntu on his work laptop, but his "big dog" gaming system runs Windows | Jul 04 15:20 |
| Eruaran | only a matter of time | Jul 04 15:20 |
| Eruaran | I remember a computer once that people considered mainly for gaming | Jul 04 15:20 |
| wallclimber | what was it? | Jul 04 15:21 |
| Eruaran | it did other things of course | Jul 04 15:21 |
| Eruaran | but eventually being known only for gaming becomes a noose around your neck | Jul 04 15:21 |
| Eruaran | Amiga | Jul 04 15:21 |
| Eruaran | difference betweeen the amiga and windows though | Jul 04 15:22 |
| Eruaran | the amiga was actually good | Jul 04 15:22 |
| wallclimber | ahh, i see. what happened to amiga? | Jul 04 15:22 |
| Eruaran | it basically fell into a rut | Jul 04 15:22 |
| Eruaran | even though it was the most exciting computing hardware of its time | Jul 04 15:23 |
| wallclimber | I had a friend that died a couple of years ago, he owned a computer store in the 80s and early 90s | Jul 04 15:23 |
| wallclimber | he sold amigas | Jul 04 15:23 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:23 |
| Eruaran | the Amiga was big once | Jul 04 15:23 |
| wallclimber | he said the company itself was at fault for losing out | Jul 04 15:23 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:23 |
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| Eruaran | But the Amiga was ahead of its time | Jul 04 15:24 |
| Eruaran | I'm not sure any company would have really capitalized on it the way they should have | Jul 04 15:24 |
| Eruaran | It was doing multimedia long before most people knew what that meant | Jul 04 15:24 |
| Eruaran | Did you know Apple could have bought the Amiga ? | Jul 04 15:25 |
| Eruaran | Steve Jobs turned it down | Jul 04 15:25 |
| wallclimber | back to ubuntu, i've been asked to help a couple of friends to install ubuntu on their computers, one is a laptop | Jul 04 15:25 |
| wallclimber | the other'n is a desktop. I usually let people try | Jul 04 15:25 |
| Eruaran | Most of the time its excellent | Jul 04 15:26 |
| wallclimber | several live cds and let them choose what they want | Jul 04 15:26 |
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| wallclimber | Yes, my friend told me that amiga was ahead of its time with multi-media | Jul 04 15:26 |
| Eruaran | yep | Jul 04 15:27 |
| Eruaran | by about a decade | Jul 04 15:27 |
| wallclimber | my worry with showing people ubuntu now, is that i know, eventually, they will be visiting the support forums | Jul 04 15:27 |
| Eruaran | I usually install xchat-gnome | Jul 04 15:28 |
| Eruaran | and put a link on the top of their desktop | Jul 04 15:28 |
| Eruaran | if they need help they just click on it | Jul 04 15:28 |
| Eruaran | and find themselves in #ubuntu | Jul 04 15:28 |
| wallclimber | not just ubuntu's forums, i generally show people how to search google and such | Jul 04 15:29 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:29 |
| Eruaran | I find if you show people how to get help, they'll be ok | Jul 04 15:29 |
| wallclimber | i'm uneasy, lately with the direction ubuntu is going | Jul 04 15:29 |
| Eruaran | with mono ? | Jul 04 15:29 |
| wallclimber | there is much more hostility lately | Jul 04 15:29 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:29 |
| Eruaran | While at the same time other distro's are not following that path | Jul 04 15:29 |
| wallclimber | i just don't know how to explain it to new users | Jul 04 15:30 |
| Eruaran | mono concerns ? | Jul 04 15:30 |
| wallclimber | yes, mono concerns - but maybe it's best to just wait it all out | Jul 04 15:31 |
| Eruaran | At the moment were still offering Ubuntu for noobs | Jul 04 15:31 |
| wallclimber | it will probably get sorted out eventually | Jul 04 15:31 |
| Eruaran | for the time being... | Jul 04 15:31 |
| Eruaran | maybe | Jul 04 15:31 |
| wallclimber | i hope so. | Jul 04 15:31 |
| Eruaran | Ubuntu is popular, and has brand name traction now | Jul 04 15:31 |
| Eruaran | This is more reason why Microsoft will be looking to undermine Ubuntu | Jul 04 15:32 |
| wallclimber | it seems sad to see something like that happen | Jul 04 15:32 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:32 |
| Eruaran | its dumb | Jul 04 15:32 |
| Eruaran | just when you've got it good | Jul 04 15:32 |
| wallclimber | just as ubuntu begins to grow in popularity | Jul 04 15:32 |
| Eruaran | you go stick your head in the lions jaws | Jul 04 15:32 |
| wallclimber | i've often wondered how and when things would happen to ubuntu, it seemed | Jul 04 15:33 |
| Eruaran | I've actually had people say to me | Jul 04 15:33 |
| Eruaran | "i don't like linux... I like ubuntu" | Jul 04 15:33 |
| wallclimber | inevitable that something would | Jul 04 15:33 |
| wallclimber | lol, yes, I've had people say that too | Jul 04 15:33 |
| wallclimber | i've wondered if maybe canonical is just letting things play out, for now | Jul 04 15:34 |
| Eruaran | I'd like to think that | Jul 04 15:35 |
| wallclimber | i can't believe they'd put it all at risk | Jul 04 15:35 |
| Eruaran | But its the hostility and gagging of dissent that bothers me | Jul 04 15:35 |
| Eruaran | Even as an OEM I've been told my concerns are "stupid" | Jul 04 15:35 |
| Eruaran | I've said... "I'm the OEM mate" | Jul 04 15:35 |
| Eruaran | OEM | Jul 04 15:35 |
| Eruaran | OEM's concerns are stupid... | Jul 04 15:36 |
| wallclimber | yes, it's not the disagreement that bothers me so much as the tone and hostility | Jul 04 15:36 |
| Eruaran | The stupidity and arrogance of such a comment over a questionable framework of which the apps that use it you could number on one hand is ridiclous | Jul 04 15:36 |
| wallclimber | it's what indicates to me that there is, surely, a deeper agenda | Jul 04 15:37 |
| Eruaran | I told one of these guys to keep it up, we'll all be using KDE 4.x within 12 months, and the mono pushers will be high and dry | Jul 04 15:37 |
| Eruaran | he scoffed | Jul 04 15:38 |
| wallclimber | i actually think the mono people thrive on the attention and hostility | Jul 04 15:38 |
| Eruaran | I reminded him that 12 months is a long time in free software | Jul 04 15:38 |
| Eruaran | he didnt listen | Jul 04 15:39 |
| Eruaran | theyve tried to push mono on kde | Jul 04 15:39 |
| Eruaran | but there's little interest from the kde community | Jul 04 15:39 |
| Eruaran | only from Novell employees | Jul 04 15:39 |
| wallclimber | i hope kde stays out of it all, but it seems whatever gains popularity eventually gets attacked | Jul 04 15:40 |
| wallclimber | it's discouraging | Jul 04 15:40 |
| Eruaran | KDE will be fine | Jul 04 15:41 |
| Eruaran | they've been getting attacked over every new thing they do for ages ;) | Jul 04 15:41 |
| wallclimber | it's funny, you are a real OEM, and i'm just a little old lady that helps her friends with their computers, believe me, if they treat your concerns | Jul 04 15:41 |
| Eruaran | exactly | Jul 04 15:41 |
| wallclimber | as stupid, you KNOW they aren't going to give mine the time of day | Jul 04 15:41 |
| wallclimber | everybody knows grandma's too stupid to be messing with computers | Jul 04 15:42 |
| Eruaran | They don't take the concerns of OEM's seriously... As far as I'm concerned they don't have a future. | Jul 04 15:42 |
| wallclimber | what do you think will happen when | Jul 04 15:43 |
| Eruaran | I don't believe you behave the way they behave unless someone is paying you to aggressively push it | Jul 04 15:43 |
| wallclimber | the novell ms patent agreement expires? | Jul 04 15:43 |
| Eruaran | Red Hat and Fedora will lead the pushback against mono | Jul 04 15:43 |
| Eruaran | Either Canonical will accept this or fall into the arms of Microsoft like Novell did | Jul 04 15:44 |
| Eruaran | Canonical resisted Microsoft's patent claims previously... that is a hopeful sign | Jul 04 15:44 |
| wallclimber | maybe canonical is allowing things to heat up because they're willing to take ms on over patents | Jul 04 15:44 |
| wallclimber | ? | Jul 04 15:45 |
| wallclimber | maybe they just want to get ms to put up, or shut up? | Jul 04 15:45 |
| Eruaran | But on a broader scale if the gnome community keeps entertaining this small core group of mono pushers and letting the like scumbags like Miguel de Icaza have what they want then the wider community will swing behind KDE | Jul 04 15:45 |
| wallclimber | i dunno... | Jul 04 15:45 |
| Eruaran | KDE 4.3 is shaping up very nicely indeed | Jul 04 15:46 |
| wallclimber | i guess that's something to keep in mind, gnome isn't ubuntu | Jul 04 15:46 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:46 |
| wallclimber | is that correct? | Jul 04 15:46 |
| Eruaran | right | Jul 04 15:47 |
| wallclimber | so, ubuntu should be okay, | Jul 04 15:47 |
| Eruaran | probably | Jul 04 15:47 |
| wallclimber | it's the gnome group that's been infiltrated? | Jul 04 15:47 |
| Eruaran | If they drop mono in reasonable time | Jul 04 15:47 |
| Eruaran | mainly yes | Jul 04 15:47 |
| wallclimber | i read about another ubuntu yesterday...let me go find it brb | Jul 04 15:48 |
| Eruaran | I've seen the guys from Novell trying to push for mono apps, bindings or whatever in KDE but the response from KDE folks goes from ambivilent and disinterested to concerned to hostile | Jul 04 15:48 |
| Eruaran | theyre not stupid | Jul 04 15:49 |
| wallclimber | here is a link, it's called "Lubuntu" | Jul 04 15:49 |
| wallclimber | https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop | Jul 04 15:49 |
| Eruaran | I think KDE has more of an independant streak, they dont like being dependent on anything that might end up unmaintained, let alone something as questionable as mono... and they have Qt, Java, and a lot of Python folks as well... what do they need mono for ? | Jul 04 15:50 |
| wallclimber | what is LXDE? | Jul 04 15:50 |
| Eruaran | its another desktop environment :P | Jul 04 15:50 |
| wallclimber | like gnome and kde, yes? | Jul 04 15:51 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:51 |
| wallclimber | you mentioned QT, i have read that it uses mono too, is that true? | Jul 04 15:51 |
| Eruaran | no | Jul 04 15:51 |
| wallclimber | good! | Jul 04 15:52 |
| Eruaran | :) | Jul 04 15:52 |
| Eruaran | Qt is the toolkit used to make KDE | Jul 04 15:52 |
| Eruaran | Its LGPL | Jul 04 15:52 |
| Eruaran | C++ | Jul 04 15:53 |
| wallclimber | thank you for explaining that | Jul 04 15:53 |
| Eruaran | :) | Jul 04 15:53 |
| wallclimber | well, wish me luck with my new installs | Jul 04 15:53 |
| Eruaran | good luck ! | Jul 04 15:53 |
| wallclimber | i have four live cds for my friends to try out | Jul 04 15:54 |
| wallclimber | xubuntu, pclinuxos, mandriva, and puppy (sometimes that little puppy just works!) | Jul 04 15:54 |
| wallclimber | i think mandriva may be too much for these older machines to handle, but we'll see | Jul 04 15:55 |
| Eruaran | I'm using Kubuntu at the moment | Jul 04 15:55 |
| Eruaran | how old are they ? | Jul 04 15:55 |
| wallclimber | i've only tried kubuntu a couple of time (not recently though) | Jul 04 15:55 |
| wallclimber | i won't really know the age and hardware till they get here. asking people about their hardware is a lost cause, so | Jul 04 15:56 |
| Eruaran | I just ask people how old their computer is | Jul 04 15:57 |
| wallclimber | i generally just wait and see and try to prepare for anything | Jul 04 15:57 |
| wallclimber | however, i'd guess they are between 2 and 4 years old | Jul 04 15:57 |
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| Eruaran | ah they'll be fine | Jul 04 15:57 |
| Eruaran | with any distro | Jul 04 15:57 |
| wallclimber | it's funny, people always seem so impressed by Live cds | Jul 04 15:58 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 15:58 |
| wallclimber | it's like magic to them | Jul 04 15:58 |
| Eruaran | I installed Avast! on a system and scanned someone's USB key for viruses | Jul 04 15:59 |
| Eruaran | They were amazed | Jul 04 15:59 |
| Eruaran | It had a virus on it that autoran and infected every Windows system it touched | Jul 04 16:00 |
| Eruaran | They were like, "it wont get the virus ?" | Jul 04 16:00 |
| Eruaran | I was like, "no.. its safe use, and we'll delete the virus" | Jul 04 16:00 |
| Eruaran | people are amazed when you can show them the virus file, point to it and simply delete it | Jul 04 16:02 |
| wallclimber | yes, windows users have been conditioned to believe that computers are all alike, and all get viruses and malware | Jul 04 16:02 |
| Omar871 | wallclimber: LOL. So true. :) | Jul 04 16:03 |
| wallclimber | This is one of the reasons I KNOW the statistics Microsoft likes to throw around | Jul 04 16:05 |
| wallclimber | like "Windows has 99% of the world's computers" and such | Jul 04 16:05 |
| wallclimber | can not be true. Five years ago I knew very few people that didn't run Windows, this year | Jul 04 16:06 |
| Eruaran | We have a growing customer base that no longer uses Windows | Jul 04 16:07 |
| wallclimber | the Windows users have become the minority (of course, this may only be true in my own little universe) | Jul 04 16:07 |
| wallclimber | I'm always glad to hear that others are seeing the same trend | Jul 04 16:07 |
| Eruaran | Lets put it this way | Jul 04 16:07 |
| Eruaran | Where I work, Windows XP users still makes up the bulk of our customers | Jul 04 16:08 |
| Eruaran | but the second biggest group of users now | Jul 04 16:08 |
| Eruaran | Are Ubuntu users | Jul 04 16:08 |
| Eruaran | We have less customers using Vista | Jul 04 16:08 |
| Eruaran | And once in a while someone asks us to service their Mac | Jul 04 16:08 |
| wallclimber | have you had many problems with supporting ubuntu users? | Jul 04 16:09 |
| Eruaran | no | Jul 04 16:09 |
| Eruaran | they are generally easier to support than Windows users | Jul 04 16:09 |
| wallclimber | i've been astounded at how well most people handle getting used to Ubuntu | Jul 04 16:09 |
| Eruaran | very few people screw up their ubuntu systems | Jul 04 16:09 |
| wallclimber | there is one person in particular that i had many sleepless nights worrying about | Jul 04 16:10 |
| Eruaran | And Ubuntu just does these little things that impresses the hell out of people | Jul 04 16:10 |
| wallclimber | i almost refused to set up an ubuntu machine for them | Jul 04 16:10 |
| wallclimber | because they wore me out with windows problems over the years | Jul 04 16:11 |
| wallclimber | lol, this particular person has handled ubuntu very well | Jul 04 16:11 |
| Eruaran | :) | Jul 04 16:11 |
| wallclimber | i am very surprised, and very relieved | Jul 04 16:12 |
| Eruaran | I installed Ubuntu for a 76 year old gentleman | Jul 04 16:12 |
| Eruaran | He was frustrated after about 12 months with Vista on his notebook | Jul 04 16:12 |
| Eruaran | It always had problems | Jul 04 16:12 |
| wallclimber | the worst things i've had to deal with, so far, has been getting some older machines working | Jul 04 16:12 |
| Eruaran | And wasnt reliable | Jul 04 16:12 |
| Eruaran | This was a HP notebook | Jul 04 16:13 |
| Eruaran | There was a recall on the battery | Jul 04 16:13 |
| Eruaran | We didn't know about that | Jul 04 16:13 |
| Eruaran | He knew the battery charge wasnt lasting long | Jul 04 16:13 |
| wallclimber | i've only had one run-in with vista - i helped a neighbor with their new vista laptop that would not wake up after suspending | Jul 04 16:14 |
| Eruaran | He found out about the recall on the battery, so he'd been calling HP to see about getting another battery | Jul 04 16:14 |
| Eruaran | The first time Ubuntu booted after installing, it popped up with a dialogue saying there was a problem with the battery, its either old or broken. | Jul 04 16:14 |
| Eruaran | We called him up to tell him | Jul 04 16:14 |
| Eruaran | And of course he was amazed | Jul 04 16:15 |
| wallclimber | did HP help? the vista laptop i helped with was HP too | Jul 04 16:15 |
| Eruaran | not yet | Jul 04 16:15 |
| Eruaran | getting anything out of HP is like getting blood from a stone | Jul 04 16:15 |
| wallclimber | it's been at least a year ago, so i don't remember exactly, but it seemed to me that i found a patch on the HP website that fixed the problem | Jul 04 16:16 |
| wallclimber | for my neighbor | Jul 04 16:16 |
| Eruaran | must be something different | Jul 04 16:16 |
| wallclimber | i have to admit their vista laptop was pretty | Jul 04 16:17 |
| Eruaran | with this one apparrently the battery is one of a bad batch | Jul 04 16:17 |
| wallclimber | do you think hp will replace the battery? | Jul 04 16:17 |
| Eruaran | eventually | Jul 04 16:17 |
| Eruaran | after lots of whinging | Jul 04 16:18 |
| Eruaran | a guy at work told me a funny story | Jul 04 16:19 |
| wallclimber | i've read that vista is a battery-drainer | Jul 04 16:19 |
| Eruaran | is it ever | Jul 04 16:19 |
| Eruaran | BenQ A53 notebooks | Jul 04 16:20 |
| Eruaran | Vista kills their battery and power supply | Jul 04 16:20 |
| Eruaran | Every BenQ A53 with Windows XP or a GNU/Linux distro has no problems | Jul 04 16:20 |
| Eruaran | But EVERY one we've sold with Vista (which is not many admittedly) has had to have battery and/or power supply replaced within 6 months | Jul 04 16:21 |
| wallclimber | what does vista do that kills power supplies? | Jul 04 16:22 |
| Eruaran | It just rapes it constantly | Jul 04 16:22 |
| wallclimber | overworking it? | Jul 04 16:22 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:22 |
| Eruaran | hard drive light on most of the time | Jul 04 16:23 |
| Eruaran | it doesnt run well on those notebooks anyway | Jul 04 16:23 |
| Eruaran | but anyone who decided to keep Vista on it has paid the price | Jul 04 16:23 |
| wallclimber | how well do you think Windows 7 will run on netbooks? | Jul 04 16:24 |
| Eruaran | not very | Jul 04 16:24 |
| Eruaran | I don't belive the hype | Jul 04 16:24 |
| Eruaran | And they'll be pushing Windows 7 "Starter Edition" on them | Jul 04 16:25 |
| Eruaran | Its a crippled OS | Jul 04 16:25 |
| wallclimber | i thought they had decided to drop the starter limits | Jul 04 16:25 |
| Eruaran | they dropped the 3 app limit | Jul 04 16:25 |
| Eruaran | but thats all | Jul 04 16:26 |
| Eruaran | you still cant even change the wallpaper | Jul 04 16:26 |
| Eruaran | no dvd support | Jul 04 16:26 |
| Eruaran | no multimedia streaming over your home network | Jul 04 16:26 |
| Eruaran | no domain support | Jul 04 16:26 |
| wallclimber | wow, how on Earth are they going to market that? | Jul 04 16:27 |
| wallclimber | i guess they'll just show how pretty it looks? | Jul 04 16:27 |
| Eruaran | I think they think people will opt to upgrade and shell out the extra cost | Jul 04 16:27 |
| Eruaran | its not pretty | Jul 04 16:27 |
| Eruaran | Starter Edition does not have Aero | Jul 04 16:27 |
| wallclimber | it's funny, it does seem like people are very proud when they can tell people they | Jul 04 16:28 |
| Eruaran | so instead of the glassy taskbar panel, you get a grey bland looking thing | Jul 04 16:28 |
| wallclimber | have the latest "pro" or "Ultimate" version of windows | Jul 04 16:28 |
| Eruaran | KDE will soon have a netbook desktop in its desktop settings arsenal | Jul 04 16:29 |
| Eruaran | desktop, folderview, blackboard, netbook... | Jul 04 16:29 |
| wallclimber | i've never seen windows 7, but i've heard it looks a lot like kde | Jul 04 16:30 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:30 |
| Eruaran | the first alpha I saw was a blatant rip off | Jul 04 16:30 |
| Eruaran | they didn't even bother to change the styling | Jul 04 16:30 |
| wallclimber | in many ways, microsoft seems like a very sad company | Jul 04 16:31 |
| Eruaran | so it was as obvious as their rip off of Kayak for Bing travel... | Jul 04 16:31 |
| Eruaran | Even the wallpaper was a rip of off one from Vladstudio from the previous year | Jul 04 16:31 |
| Eruaran | just pathetic | Jul 04 16:32 |
| wallclimber | i read somewhere that bing travel was down due to a power outage | Jul 04 16:32 |
| Eruaran | they've got billions of dollars in their R&D budget, and it seems all they can do is copy Apple, or KDE, or Kayak or Google | Jul 04 16:32 |
| wallclimber | in seattle? I should probably go find it before talking about it and getting it wrong | Jul 04 16:32 |
| Eruaran | i heard something along those lines | Jul 04 16:33 |
| wallclimber | it just seems like everything they do lately seems desperate and inept | Jul 04 16:33 |
| Eruaran | not everything | Jul 04 16:33 |
| Eruaran | theyre very good at monopolizing the market | Jul 04 16:34 |
| wallclimber | but sooo hostile to everyone | Jul 04 16:34 |
| Eruaran | they're very good at corrupting state education bodies | Jul 04 16:34 |
| Eruaran | and strangling distribution channels | Jul 04 16:34 |
| wallclimber | they also seem very good at making enemies | Jul 04 16:35 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:35 |
| wallclimber | all of those things you mentioned still indicate desperation to me | Jul 04 16:35 |
| wallclimber | they seem very afraid of growing old... | Jul 04 16:36 |
| wallclimber | and pointless (can we send them to the nursing home?) | Jul 04 16:36 |
| Eruaran | Linux is everywhere... Apple is everywhere... Google is everywhere | Jul 04 16:36 |
| Eruaran | Sometimes I tell a customer who thinks nobody uses linux | Jul 04 16:37 |
| wallclimber | it's been amazing to see how many ways ms has found to attack and annoy google | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | "Do you use Google ?" | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | You use Linux | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | "see that Netgear router over there ?" | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | It runs Linux. | Jul 04 16:37 |
| wallclimber | ballmer was apparently very serious about his, long ago, chair-tossing threats against google | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | See that NAS device ? | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | It runs Linux | Jul 04 16:37 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | The problem is | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | Their attitude has not changed | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | They have not learned | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | They are as arrogant as ever | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | As evidenced recently | Jul 04 16:38 |
| Eruaran | When the price of Vista with Windows 7 discount certificates was deliberately inflated | Jul 04 16:39 |
| Eruaran | OEM Vista versions that come with a new PC being marketed with the Windows 7 discount form | Jul 04 16:39 |
| Eruaran | the customer is conned | Jul 04 16:39 |
| Eruaran | There is no discount... they just paid more for Vista in the first place than before | Jul 04 16:40 |
| Eruaran | They're trying to gouge people | Jul 04 16:40 |
| wallclimber | it amazes me how many times people are willing to pay for a windows license - I was reading glyn moody | Jul 04 16:41 |
| Eruaran | Their software is expensive and inferior | Jul 04 16:41 |
| wallclimber | http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/help-me-go-mano-mano-microsoft | Jul 04 16:41 |
| wallclimber | i read through the comments on that page, and thought to myself that | Jul 04 16:41 |
| wallclimber | it's likely going to be a pointless meeting for Glyn. It won't be the | Jul 04 16:42 |
| wallclimber | meeting that will make the difference, it will be the quiet phone call from an MS rep that will | Jul 04 16:42 |
| wallclimber | cause the city to continue using Windows | Jul 04 16:43 |
| wallclimber | i wonder if this is just Manchester's way of getting Microsoft to give them a better deal than last time | Jul 04 16:43 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:44 |
| wallclimber | (sigh) seems sad. Glyn seems genuinely hoping to make a difference | Jul 04 16:44 |
| Eruaran | I have learned not to bother with anyone who is not already expressng an interest in genuine change | Jul 04 16:45 |
| wallclimber | i guess it never hurts to keep trying, chipping away at the monopoly one small chip at a time | Jul 04 16:45 |
| Eruaran | If someone wants Windows, thats what they get. If someone expresses an interest in Ubuntu or Linux in general, we encourage them to go for it. | Jul 04 16:46 |
| Eruaran | You just learn to discern who wants to be lead to water and who wont drink even if you point to the lake. | Jul 04 16:47 |
| Eruaran | But the number of people interested primarily in Ubuntu now has surprised even me. | Jul 04 16:48 |
| wallclimber | Yes, it's very true. It's a tribute to word of mouth, i think...or maybe | Jul 04 16:49 |
| wallclimber | microsoft has been so rotten lately that people are desperately looking for alternatives | Jul 04 16:50 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:50 |
| wallclimber | Eruaran, thank you so much for chatting with me this morning. | Jul 04 16:51 |
| Eruaran | I think the dismal quality of their software and Microsoft's increasingly belligerent behaviour is turning people elsewhere | Jul 04 16:51 |
| Eruaran | no problem :P | Jul 04 16:51 |
| wallclimber | also, how nice it's been to not have any trolls roaming through | Jul 04 16:51 |
| Eruaran | yes | Jul 04 16:52 |
| wallclimber | you have a great weekend! | Jul 04 16:52 |
| wallclimber | :) | Jul 04 16:52 |
| Eruaran | you to :) | Jul 04 16:52 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Can't Get Over - Kasino" ♫ http://blip.fm/~9d6jy | Jul 04 17:08 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Stay Tonight - Kasino" ♫ http://blip.fm/~9d6oe | Jul 04 17:13 | |
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| twitter1 | hmmm, the conversation on that reddit article is full of shills. they heap more abuse on RMS, it's so M$ to do that. I was not happy to read the SV article though, it was almost as mean spirited as the FU original. | Jul 04 17:27 |
| twitter1 | Remembering the whole M$ "Apple Switcher" mess, where they created fake blogs with stock photos, I'm not sure the "intern" is a real person. | Jul 04 17:31 |
| twitter1 | If they are, I feel bad for them. | Jul 04 17:32 |
| twitter1 | M$ will probably fire them. | Jul 04 17:32 |
| twitter1 | The guy's an idiot and should be ignored. Sam's article abused him for petty things like grammar and spelling along with the more appropriate criticism of ignorance and malice. | Jul 04 17:34 |
| twitter1 | Sam got one thing right, though, the intern is representative of the kind of abuse the mono and M$ people dish out all the time. | Jul 04 17:35 |
| twitter1 | Jo Shields and others are abusive. | Jul 04 17:36 |
| twitter1 | Miguel, from what I've seen is not like that, but the mono camp in general is just ugly. | Jul 04 17:37 |
| twitter1 | Free software, hijacked by M$. | Jul 04 17:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] yet again I get my news from twitter. sarah palin's resignation speech is ... uh. | Jul 04 17:38 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @daltux: 2º o prof, o ZipMail, que era sinônimo de email no Brasil. Migraram a estrutura de Solaris para Redmond, então ficou uma carroça. | Jul 04 18:08 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Younger teen tidied lounge. Her intarweb is back on. Older teen shocked. Toddler of course poured a big puddle of juice onto the couch. | Jul 04 18:13 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] gave up and fixed laptop resolution with an xorg.conf. xorg@ gave advice on how a similar driver was patched though. could be win. | Jul 04 18:13 | |
| cobra-the-joker | hey there every one | Jul 04 18:17 |
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| twitter1 | irony. Slashdot user twitter hates push media. | Jul 04 18:43 |
| twitter1 | this looks like king hell spyware http://www.informationweek.com/news/mobility/business/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400204 | Jul 04 18:44 |
| twitter1 | "skyhook" even the name is evil | Jul 04 18:44 |
| twitter1 | what a big hit. GPS in your phone that phones home via wifi! neat idea, gang, collect everyone's location and report it. | Jul 04 18:45 |
| twitter1 | no thanks. | Jul 04 18:45 |
| twitter1 | non free software is so rapacious | Jul 04 18:47 |
| twitter1 | GPS + bluetooth or wifi raises similar concerns. | Jul 04 18:47 |
| twitter1 | Malls have already used bluetooth in phones to track customers | Jul 04 18:48 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Sarah Palin gives maverickilicious resignation speech http://notnews.today.com/?p=550 | Jul 04 18:48 | |
| cobra-the-joker | twitter1 , is this really true ...about the malls ? | Jul 04 18:51 |
| twitter1 | yes, it's true | Jul 04 18:51 |
| twitter1 | I can dig up links if you want me to | Jul 04 18:51 |
| cobra-the-joker | too bad | Jul 04 18:51 |
| cobra-the-joker | luckily i dont have BlueTooth :D | Jul 04 18:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Bugatti Veyron 16.4 Grand Sport: http://is.gd/1nm5h | Jul 04 18:53 | |
| twitter1 | here's a 2003 announcement of "services" offered. http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/29/200227 | Jul 04 18:53 |
| cobra-the-joker | mmm...interesting | Jul 04 18:54 |
| twitter1 | you can be tracked by your phone with or without bluetooth. speculation here http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/09/08/2322224 | Jul 04 18:54 |
| twitter1 | a study was later released about the movements of people in an unnamed European city. | Jul 04 18:55 |
| twitter1 | there were also a few stories about malls using the bluetooth tracking | Jul 04 18:56 |
| cobra-the-joker | dirty work .... | Jul 04 18:57 |
| twitter1 | people who implement these things make excuses, "everyone knows this happens" , "no one really cares" and so on and so forth | Jul 04 18:57 |
| cobra-the-joker | yeah | Jul 04 18:58 |
| twitter1 | they do not understand the repressive possibilities and how a society without dissidents is bad for everyone. | Jul 04 18:58 |
| cobra-the-joker | i would agree if they really told me "we are tracking you "or something | Jul 04 18:59 |
| twitter1 | you phone company might already do that | Jul 04 18:59 |
| twitter1 | "tracking for billing purpose" clause or some other lie | Jul 04 18:59 |
| twitter1 | location tracking gives the rich and powerful that much more power | Jul 04 19:00 |
| twitter1 | it also denies dissidents the use of the suspect tech | Jul 04 19:01 |
| twitter1 | RMS, for example, does not have a cell phone. | Jul 04 19:01 |
| cobra-the-joker | mmm | Jul 04 19:01 |
| twitter1 | he also travels by bus | Jul 04 19:01 |
| cobra-the-joker | RMS ?? | Jul 04 19:02 |
| cobra-the-joker | pardon me ...what is RMS | Jul 04 19:02 |
| twitter1 | Richard Stallman | Jul 04 19:02 |
| cobra-the-joker | mmmm | Jul 04 19:02 |
| twitter1 | He's definitely someone who's displeased the rich and powerful by helping everyone else. | Jul 04 19:03 |
| cobra-the-joker | i like the concept of openSource very much | Jul 04 19:04 |
| macabe_ | Which is the concept they're wishing/working to destroy-The meaning of Open Source according to ms | Jul 04 19:06 |
| twitter1 | The Free Software movement had things right all along. | Jul 04 19:07 |
| cobra-the-joker | yes ....i dont get ppl who hate that ...really | Jul 04 19:07 |
| macabe_ | IMO I think its control freakness | Jul 04 19:08 |
| twitter1 | http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/08/my-tonguelashin.html | Jul 04 19:08 |
| twitter1 | Eben Moglen said it well. | Jul 04 19:09 |
| twitter1 | O'Reilly misses a key ingredient in his analysis - Network Freedom. | Jul 04 19:15 |
| twitter1 | With network freedom, software freedom flourishes and Facebook and other services become the "thermal noise" Molgen talks about. | Jul 04 19:16 |
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| macabe_ | This pertains to net neutrality? | Jul 04 19:16 |
| twitter1 | If Facebook offers anything useful, it will be quickly duplicated in free software that actually protects user privacy. | Jul 04 19:16 |
| twitter1 | Network freedom is more than network neutrality. | Jul 04 19:17 |
| cobra-the-joker | FaceBook is free .....but i dont think it protects user privacy :D | Jul 04 19:17 |
| twitter1 | network freedom is the freedom to use the bandwith you pay for for any purpose. | Jul 04 19:17 |
| twitter1 | Network neutrality is being turned into some kind of "right to chose your masters" nonsense. | Jul 04 19:18 |
| twitter1 | There is little network freedom in the US. | Jul 04 19:18 |
| macabe_ | Know that from experience. | Jul 04 19:19 |
| twitter1 | Most people are stuck with a single network provider that blocks ports and explicitly bans services. | Jul 04 19:19 |
| twitter1 | The @Home network was free. | Jul 04 19:19 |
| twitter1 | They gave people a fixed IP address and let them do whatever they wanted. It worked very well. | Jul 04 19:20 |
| macabe_ | What happened? | Jul 04 19:20 |
| twitter1 | Cable and telco companies took over. | Jul 04 19:21 |
| twitter1 | DSL companies were eliminated in the late 90s | Jul 04 19:21 |
| twitter1 | All competition to the usual monopoly suspects was crushed and AAT reformed itself. | Jul 04 19:21 |
| twitter1 | reformed as in reassembled, not cleaned up | Jul 04 19:22 |
| twitter1 | Network freedom is very important for software freedom. | Jul 04 19:22 |
| twitter1 | People will never have software freedom if free software users are excluded from vital services. | Jul 04 19:23 |
| twitter1 | Broadcasters and telco will use their position to exclude as much as they can. | Jul 04 19:24 |
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| cobra-the-joker | mmm ...i think a little blocking is someHow usefull | Jul 04 19:27 |
| cobra-the-joker | u see our country here is looking forward to Block all the sex sites ^-^ | Jul 04 19:27 |
| cobra-the-joker | but actually there were ppl arguing with that ...that its agains the network freedom thing | Jul 04 19:27 |
| cobra-the-joker | but actually Blocking these sites is helpfull ( and healthy ) for every one | Jul 04 19:28 |
| cobra-the-joker | at least IMO | Jul 04 19:28 |
| twitter1 | blocking happens best at the keyboard | Jul 04 19:33 |
| twitter1 | you decide what you want, not others | Jul 04 19:33 |
| trmanco | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/04/zomg-teh-disinformation/ | Jul 04 19:35 |
| cobra-the-joker | i know the fact that noBody can prevent you from what you want to do ( whats in your mind is still in your mind) | Jul 04 19:35 |
| cobra-the-joker | but a little border will have some order i think | Jul 04 19:35 |
| twitter1 | If you think prostitution, and sex for sale are unhealthy, you need to outlaw prostitution. That takes care of porn for you, or at least drives it under ground. | Jul 04 19:35 |
| twitter1 | Many people believe that prostitution should be legal because people should be able to offer services regardless of how degrading and humiliating those services are. I think prostitution should be outlawed because it is wrong to demand such services and for people to be forced by economic circumstances to offer them. | Jul 04 19:38 |
| cobra-the-joker | yeah ...i agree | Jul 04 19:39 |
| twitter1 | Sexual harassment laws, for example, go out the window if prostitution is legal and the company puts a "sexual favors" clause in your contract. | Jul 04 19:39 |
| twitter1 | ick | Jul 04 19:39 |
| twitter1 | Those things have nothing to do with publishing. | Jul 04 19:40 |
| cobra-the-joker | they will wait till they see the real consequences of it | Jul 04 19:40 |
| cobra-the-joker | really :D? | Jul 04 19:41 |
| twitter1 | trmanco, I'm not sure I'd call Jo Shields "brilliant" | Jul 04 19:41 |
| trmanco | twitter, in what aspect? | Jul 04 19:41 |
| trmanco | twitter1, | Jul 04 19:41 |
| twitter1 | well, he's loud, forceful, rude, dishonest (lies by distraction and dismissal) and many other things, clever but not in a useful way. | Jul 04 19:43 |
| trmanco | twitter1, do you know who Jason is? | Jul 04 19:43 |
| twitter1 | I don't know Jason. | Jul 04 19:43 |
| trmanco | yeah, I agree with your view | Jul 04 19:43 |
| twitter1 | I've read a few Jo Shields essays. They are more annoying than convincing. | Jul 04 19:43 |
| trmanco | :-) | Jul 04 19:45 |
| twitter1 | "Don't Bullshit Me, Son" LOL | Jul 04 19:45 |
| twitter1 | well done, thanks. | Jul 04 19:45 |
| trmanco | haha | Jul 04 19:47 |
| trmanco | have you seen an award he gave? | Jul 04 19:47 |
| twitter1 | A Jo Shields award? No, I've never seen that. | Jul 04 19:48 |
| trmanco | oh, that is from the "award" | Jul 04 19:48 |
| trmanco | http://mono-nono.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/bullshit.png | Jul 04 19:48 |
| twitter1 | I'm unable to read the M$ promise, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t91196-what-is-mspx-extension.html | Jul 04 19:49 |
| trmanco | "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found. | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | See below for search results close to your request, or try a new search." | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | what a nice way to boost Bings traffic | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | oh wait | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | it make an auto-search for you | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | how about that | Jul 04 19:50 |
| trmanco | makes | Jul 04 19:51 |
| twitter1 | I don't even get get a 404 for it. | Jul 04 19:51 |
| twitter1 | http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx simply hangs | Jul 04 19:51 |
| twitter1 | not even wget is served | Jul 04 19:51 |
| twitter1 | "HTTP request sent, awaiting response..." | Jul 04 19:52 |
| trmanco | oh that page | Jul 04 19:52 |
| trmanco | I can open it | Jul 04 19:52 |
| twitter1 | interesting | Jul 04 19:53 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] LOL -> http://is.gd/1nojj Don't BS me son! | Jul 04 19:53 | |
| twitter1 | MSPX is a custom extension Microsoft uses for their content | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | presentation framework: | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/bkst_column_46.mspx | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | "The presentation framework includes a custom Web handler built in | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | ASP.NET. Pages that use the presentation framework have the .mspx | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | filename extension, which is registered in Microsoft Internet | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | Information Services (IIS) on the Web servers. When one of the | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | Microsoft.com Web servers receives a request for an .mspx page, this | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | custom Web handler intercepts that call and passes it to the framework | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | for processing." | Jul 04 19:54 |
| twitter1 | I think their server is down | Jul 04 19:54 |
| trmanco | it works :| | Jul 04 19:55 |
| trmanco | maybe DNS problems? | Jul 04 19:55 |
| twitter1 | I don't think so. | Jul 04 19:55 |
| trmanco | I can print the page or save it, if you want to see it | Jul 04 19:56 |
| twitter1 | wget gets proper resolution, it's still hung waiting for a request. | Jul 04 19:56 |
| twitter1 | don't bother. M$ promises are not worth much. It's funny that M$ won't even grant their usual "protection" to mono, that's all that counts here. | Jul 04 19:57 |
| twitter1 | "Connecting to www.microsoft.com|65.55.21.250|:80... connected" | Jul 04 19:58 |
| twitter1 | I gave up on the second pass | Jul 04 19:58 |
| twitter1 | If they don't want to serve things in a standard way, I don't want to read it. | Jul 04 19:59 |
| trmanco | :-) | Jul 04 20:02 |
| trmanco | http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:G53nwUtJ_M4J:www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx+http://www.microsoft.com/interop/osp/default.mspx&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a | Jul 04 20:02 |
| trmanco | how about like that | Jul 04 20:03 |
| twitter1 | even there, something is toxic to Konqueror. It works with netsurf. | Jul 04 20:07 |
| twitter1 | what an ugly and stupid document, how can people stand to use even the "covered" items? | Jul 04 20:10 |
| twitter1 | Software patents must be eliminated to free people of nonsense like that. | Jul 04 20:11 |
| twitter1 | bbl | Jul 04 20:11 |
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| trmanco | :> | Jul 04 20:16 |
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| seller_liar | good articles | Jul 04 20:27 |
| seller_liar | http://planet.gnu.org/gnutelephony/?p=3 | Jul 04 20:27 |
| seller_liar | http://robertmh.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/mono-is-not-a-patent-threat-for-debian/ | Jul 04 20:28 |
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| macabe_ | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/01/patent-racketeering-myhrvold/#comment-69063. PatentSludge, another troll. | Jul 04 20:55 |
| trmanco | he also commented on Sam's post | Jul 04 20:59 |
| trmanco | http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14422&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=7#p51122 | Jul 04 21:00 |
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| macabe_ | Don't know what the agenda is: There are other projects investigating patents (peer-to-patent, etc.) | Jul 04 21:06 |
| macabe_ | Person could've joined those projects. | Jul 04 21:07 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @mkapor: Transcendental Meditation trying to silence critics. Please help! RT to make outrageous legal threats viral. http://is.gd/1nqUg | Jul 04 21:08 | |
| macabe_ | If the person was serious, else it reads like another troll site. | Jul 04 21:09 |
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| yuhong | From <http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_gaming_frank&num=2>: | Jul 04 21:41 |
| yuhong | "It doesn't help that we've had consistent issues with sales numbers being low for the game sales and things like IDC reports showing us "breaking the 1 percent mark" in the marketplace." | Jul 04 21:41 |
| yuhong | "The Linux game market is larger than the IDC figures would lead you to believe. " | Jul 04 21:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] laptop at full resolution, now using netbook remix window manager. lighter-weight than full GNOME but very nice. | Jul 04 21:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz wow, you're attracting the trolls with the last few posts. well done! | Jul 04 21:58 | |
| twitter1 | Statue of Liberty open for first time since 9/11. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/05/nyregion/05liberty.html?_r=1&hp | Jul 04 21:58 |
| twitter1 | I don't like Rober Millan's dismissal of the M$ threat. " I do agree that there’s a serious danger, but I don’t think Microsoft would ever bring all .NET implementations underground. If you think that, my opinion is you’re underestimating them. Microsoft is smarter than that." | Jul 04 22:10 |
| twitter1 | He might as well have said, "I recommend we ignore this serious threat." | Jul 04 22:11 |
| twitter1 | Someone who says M$ will ignore community groups is ignorant of M$ astroturfing history. | Jul 04 22:12 |
| twitter1 | It is fair to say that M$ is more a marketing, PR and astroturf group than they are a software company. | Jul 04 22:13 |
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| wowch, gspca just barfed my kernel. works with ekiga, blew up under vlc. It's been a while since that happened. | Jul 04 23:06 | |
| I'm not sure how twitter1 still lingers here. | Jul 04 23:06 | |
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| there you go | Jul 04 23:15 | |
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