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| oiaohm | Ok do I still have connection/ | Jul 05 00:23 |
|---|---|---|
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| _Hicham_ | Hi oiaohm | Jul 05 00:35 |
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| _Hicham_ | no one in here? | Jul 05 00:39 |
| yuhong | I am here. | Jul 05 00:41 |
| _Hicham_ | are u progressing gcc asm? | Jul 05 00:42 |
| *amarsh04 is here | Jul 05 00:43 | |
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| yuhong | From <http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=linux_gaming_frank&num=2>: | Jul 05 00:45 |
| yuhong | "It doesn't help that we've had consistent issues with sales numbers being low for the game sales and things like IDC reports showing us "breaking the 1 percent mark" in the marketplace." | Jul 05 00:46 |
| yuhong | "The Linux game market is larger than the IDC figures would lead you to believe. " | Jul 05 00:46 |
| yuhong | BTW, when do you predict MS will bring all .NET implementations underground, if it does happen? | Jul 05 00:49 |
| yuhong | Yes, I am doing more complicated stuff using gcc asm, such as muldiv. | Jul 05 00:50 |
| *amarsh04 hasn't programmed in assembly since doing VAX assembler in the mid 1980s | Jul 05 00:51 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Out to see fireworks. It is raining so hard it might not happen. | Jul 05 01:23 | |
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| I think I've found the root of my recent surfing problems. edge.sphere.com | Jul 05 02:04 | |
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| Wordpress, Washington Post, ZDnet, Newsweek and most of the other sites displayed on http://www.sphere.com are slow for me. | Jul 05 02:05 | |
| sphere.com seems to be the only thing that they have in common. | Jul 05 02:06 | |
| though it could be ads.doubleclick.net too... | Jul 05 02:06 | |
| I noticed by logging into a host system far away and calling up a browser there. This eliminated local problems, even OS and browser version problems. | Jul 05 02:07 | |
| The foreign system is Solaris using FireFox. | Jul 05 02:07 | |
| it took minutes to open up a Washington Post story. | Jul 05 02:08 | |
| Then it hung. | Jul 05 02:08 | |
| Now let's play, Where's M$? | Jul 05 02:09 | |
| Ah ha, a ZD Net article advising sphere.com over google | Jul 05 02:16 | |
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| links to http://pioneeringsolutions.com/blog/index.php?id=671 | Jul 05 02:20 | |
| Used by big media giants ... always suspect. | Jul 05 02:21 | |
| they use free software too, ha ha | Jul 05 02:22 | |
| They were just setting up in 2006 | Jul 05 02:23 | |
| http://www.technosight.com/interview-with-sphere-ceo-tony-conrad/ | Jul 05 02:27 | |
| my hunch is that this firm is used by big publishers to tame the internet. All of those sites get to cull through everyone's blogs first, they can block google and they can promote blogs they like. | Jul 05 02:29 | |
| the threat of being sold out like that is one of the reasons I have not done personal blogging on other sites since geocities. People should run their own servers. | Jul 05 02:32 | |
| Tony was with the company as of March of this year. http://www.sphere.com/blog/2009/03/03/bon-anniversaire-tony/ | Jul 05 02:36 | |
| ->" Specifically, we will syndicate contextually relevant information and search capabilities to publishers, vertical portals, complementary search engines, and weblog hosting companies. Integrating relevant blog content into publisher website properties will result in increased traffic, more ad views, and higher ad revenue." | Jul 05 02:38 | |
| I wonder if this is how big publishers came to quote the likes of DrinkyPoo, a Slashdot Troll. | Jul 05 02:38 | |
| Well, that's all from me for now. | Jul 05 02:39 | |
| I can live without 99% of the publishers sphere.com works with, so I'm not terribly bothered by the slowdown. | Jul 05 02:39 | |
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| I don't think Vista 7 will be the Earth crushing event pictured here http://www.dailytech.com/Reports+Windows+7+Release+to+Manufacturing+Set+for+July+13/article15596.htm | Jul 05 03:04 | |
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| cj | schestowitz: srsly | Jul 05 04:08 |
| cj | schestowitz: I've got a politician and a lawyer who might be interested in getting something off the ground. we'd need funding, though. | Jul 05 04:09 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: and I am the king of spam | Jul 05 04:10 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: did you like that bit? | Jul 05 04:10 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: what was the last free software project you contributed to? | Jul 05 04:11 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: AROS amd Wookiechat | Jul 05 04:11 |
| cj | could I get a link to the diffs? | Jul 05 04:11 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: also YDL | Jul 05 04:11 |
| *cj completes the clan handshake | Jul 05 04:12 | |
| cj | so what's the dealio? what can we do to diffuse this issue? | Jul 05 04:12 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: everything you need to know is on http://aros-exec.org/ | Jul 05 04:12 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | also here: http://aros.sourceforge.net/ | Jul 05 04:12 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: thats where all the documentation and nightly builds are | Jul 05 04:13 |
| cj | brb. gotta' get a bottle. :) | Jul 05 04:14 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | schestowitz: I got a real kick out of that M$ software graveyard article | Jul 05 04:15 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: why do you call it "M$"? | Jul 05 04:16 |
| *cj notes that he did the same when he was 16-21 | Jul 05 04:16 | |
| M$ is pronounced "shit" boys. | Jul 05 04:17 | |
| ***twitter ignores obnoxious trolls cj and carl_rover | Jul 05 04:17 | |
| cj | ooh! not only troll but obnoxious! | Jul 05 04:19 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: its easier to state M$ within the context of a short line the Mmmicosoft | Jul 05 04:20 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: I didn't know I was offending you | Jul 05 04:20 |
| cj | what's Mmmcosoft? I don't get it. | Jul 05 04:20 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: not offending me! was I offending you? | Jul 05 04:20 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: not at all | Jul 05 04:20 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | and that was typos before | Jul 05 04:21 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: btw, what do you think of this? http://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=237 | Jul 05 04:21 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | there is supposed to be a "n" at the end of the "the" before the word that is missing an "r" | Jul 05 04:21 |
| cj | ah. I just do 'ms'. fewer pinkie finger movements :) | Jul 05 04:21 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: but M$ looks so much cooler and pops out more | Jul 05 04:22 |
| cj | yes, but it's also pretty sophomoric, isn't it? | Jul 05 04:22 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: btw, how do you expect from a blog that is just supposed to report articles with the problems of M$ plaguing open source as well as issues within the community itself? Its a blog | Jul 05 04:23 |
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| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: its entertaining while offering articles about what underhanded things are going on in the software industry as well as governmental impacts. | Jul 05 04:23 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: if you are the author of that article you just linked, all you're doing is like the saying goes, "shooting the messenger" | Jul 05 04:25 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | seriously articles like that proove that BoycottNovell has created enough clout to leave some folks crossed | Jul 05 04:26 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | its great to have reasonable conversation but cj, from that log you just look like you are baighting | Jul 05 04:27 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: so what is your idea of a website that offers more pro-active critiquing of the software business? | Jul 05 04:29 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: it is disheartening Mono developers | Jul 05 04:33 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: and insulting the folks who built GNOME, questioning their sincerity, their morals, their goals | Jul 05 04:33 |
| SpagCode | people are more interested in unbiased and accurate rather the pro-active. | Jul 05 04:34 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: "opinions are like asswholes, everyone has one." You have to realise that there are folks who are only for open source projects if they all work on one cohesive license. If say the operating system and libraries are part of the GPL/GNU it is expected for most of the components to be too. | Jul 05 04:35 |
| cj | kinda' closed-minded, isn't it? | Jul 05 04:36 |
| cj | how about dfsg? | Jul 05 04:36 |
| cj | http://www.debian.org/social_contract | Jul 05 04:37 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: well it also keeps things relatively simple regarding keeping developers along a relatively same standard and ensuring there is no legal trouble ahead. Here is an example of an intelligent argument on the perspective: http://www.fsf.org/news/dont-depend-on-mono | Jul 05 04:37 |
| cj | ever hear of the Open Source Definition? | Jul 05 04:37 |
| *cj emails rms | Jul 05 04:38 | |
| cj | *sigh* | Jul 05 04:38 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: I have not read every word of it but it seems to detail what the guidelines of an open source development community and license should follow | Jul 05 04:38 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: it also seems to be more or less moral | Jul 05 04:39 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: let me guess you want me to see the 5th clause right? | Jul 05 04:39 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: I am still trying to figure out what exactly you want me to see in this. It all seems opinionated. | Jul 05 04:40 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: ah. this is the document that inspired the term "Open Source." The then-DPL, ESR and Tim O'Reilly got together and coined the term "Open Source." Tim then started holding events at the same time and place as The Perl Conference and created the Open Source movement. | Jul 05 04:43 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: RMS doesn't like it much, though, since it misses the point of Free Software. | Jul 05 04:44 |
| cj | well, he likes it enough to have written an essay for inclusion in Open Sources... | Jul 05 04:44 |
| cj | http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/stallman.html | Jul 05 04:44 |
| cj | but he prefers that people say "Free Software" and "GNU/Linux" | Jul 05 04:45 |
| cj | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#Terminology | Jul 05 04:45 |
| cj | anyway, the OS that created the DFSG (Debian Free Software Guidelines) has approved of the Ms/PL (Microsoft Public License) and included Mono in the default desktop edition | Jul 05 04:47 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: so he really wants people to follow his semantics in order to come away with something he hopes they should learn | Jul 05 04:47 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: indeed. I think RMS is pretty awesome. His point about patents needs addressing. | Jul 05 04:47 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: but not every Linux distro has, Fedora devs even stated Mono will never be included. | Jul 05 04:47 |
| cj | the US patent laws need to be fixed | Jul 05 04:47 |
| cj | Carl_Rover2k12: yep. and that's their choice. you can even remove it from debian. it doesn't even come in the server version. | Jul 05 04:48 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: that is true, but remember this mostly concerns the creation and distribution of software in the context of being a mathematic algorithm or software syntax | Jul 05 04:50 |
| SpagCode | is that proposal before the courts or has it been proposed to do so ? | Jul 05 04:51 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: a GPL is a way for the software to be distributed as freely as possible without the code itself being contested. | Jul 05 04:53 |
| SpagCode | public domain is even more free | Jul 05 04:54 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: actually forget what I last stated if you didn't disregard it already, I meant the use of the code being contested. | Jul 05 04:56 |
| SpagCode | are you meaning contested against patents ? | Jul 05 04:57 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: this is probably one of the reasons that can be made clear why Mono may have those who strictly adhere to GPL/GNU in an uproar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Linking_and_derived_works | Jul 05 04:58 |
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| Carl_Rover2k12 | anyway I g2g I hope some of what I posted helps create an understanding for why there is certain animosity towards projects such as Mono | Jul 05 05:05 |
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| *cj applies for positions with the DNC | Jul 05 05:11 | |
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| brilliant, " Theoretically, you can’t buy Washington Post reporters, but you can rent them." http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/business/media/04post.html?bl&ex=1246939200&en=9c6e7530c1a524cf&ei=5087%0A | Jul 05 05:44 | |
| SpagCode | "all the presidents men" i just watched that movie again the other day :) | Jul 05 05:47 |
| ha ha, Wall Street Journal and Economist are also for sale it seems, http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/24496.html | Jul 05 05:56 | |
| Harvard Business School. We all knew Business School was BS, now we know the big one is Big BS too. | Jul 05 05:57 | |
| SpagCode | MBA's and "creative accounting" can be thanked for the sub-prime SNAFU | Jul 05 05:59 |
| dark and moody news lady http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/07/04/business/04post.190.jpg | Jul 05 06:05 | |
| "wanna buy my influence?" | Jul 05 06:05 | |
| Holy crap, she said this?!! -> " She has made public comments praising The Huffington Post for its clever headlines, a compliment that did not endear her to reporters who see their own work splashed on or criticized on the Web site." | Jul 05 06:07 | |
| from NYT article. | Jul 05 06:07 | |
| The Huffington Post is pure drek. | Jul 05 06:07 | |
| "Clever" is not a word that comes to mind when I read it. Words like, "Hack-knee" "gag" and "please" come to mind. | Jul 05 06:08 | |
| "Sell out" seems about right for HP. | Jul 05 06:09 | |
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| cj | an don't get him started on gay marriage | Jul 05 06:26 |
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| M$ shows real class here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HiIHV14A-c | Jul 05 06:28 | |
| They really do hate their customers. | Jul 05 06:28 | |
| laughed at by WSJ, http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/07/02/microsoft-makes-users-sick-pulls-ad/ | Jul 05 06:29 | |
| cj | twitter: stay on topic? | Jul 05 06:30 |
| cj | SpagCode: topic? | Jul 05 06:30 |
| It's too bad they did not note that IE is the only browser that lacks basic features like history erase. | Jul 05 06:30 | |
| cj | twitter: it has history erase... | Jul 05 06:31 |
| cj | twitter: but that was good "reporting." That whole checking facts thing is really over-rated. | Jul 05 06:31 |
| cj | twitter: before mouthing off about things, you should really get to know the technology. I like IE less than you, but it's for real reasons, not things I make up. | Jul 05 06:32 |
| It would be even nicer if they noted GNU/Linux's excellent user separation that makes it so people can have their privacy and share computers. Unix was made to keep hundreds of users from stepping on each other's toes. | Jul 05 06:33 | |
| Alternate ad, has Bill Gates know everything both of them do, thanks to Windows built in encrypted communications to the mother ship. | Jul 05 06:34 | |
| SpagCode | Read your history, UNIX was originally made for single user. | Jul 05 06:35 |
| "Hairy-----, get real, mamma! I know you've been sleeping with the lawn mower and that's the reason DH ain't getting any. Windows can make both of you more happy with M$ Divorce." | Jul 05 06:36 | |
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| Ha ha, Cisco stabs M$ in the back http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/enterpriseapps/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218102094 | Jul 05 06:38 | |
| SpagCode | and its like everyone has taken up "the cloud" and its a booming industry !! :) | Jul 05 06:40 |
| easier on the browser. The last link wanted to send me hundreds of images without ever loading. http://www.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUSTRE55T53N20090630 | Jul 05 06:41 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Ubuntu a Microsoft product? http://bit.ly/yQ1fi | Jul 05 07:48 | |
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| Eruaran | Actually, UNIX was intented to run on different types of hardware so that different computers could all work together nicely and people wouldn't have to learn how to use dispirate and different computer systems that couldn't talk to each other. | Jul 05 08:34 |
| Eruaran | So multi user was a given from the start. | Jul 05 08:34 |
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| Eruaran | At least it was a consideration early on | Jul 05 08:40 |
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| yuhong | http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/04/1638223/Study-Deconstructs-Canadian-Copyright-Lobby-Deception | Jul 05 08:53 |
| yuhong | In particular the comments are good. | Jul 05 08:53 |
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| SpagCode | multi-platform and multi-user are two different things. | Jul 05 09:16 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Listening to the soundtracker file Enigma....great track...Back to the A500 #demoscene days! | Jul 05 10:13 | |
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| oiaohm | Hmm this place is being very quite | Jul 05 10:23 |
| _Goblin | I think its because Roy is away...The softies are allowed a small holiday. | Jul 05 10:52 |
| _Goblin | I think Ballmer has given them a few days off until Roy returns.. | Jul 05 10:53 |
| oiaohm | News was getting slow before Roy took time off. | Jul 05 10:59 |
| _Goblin | The stock exchange news is pretty big... | Jul 05 11:02 |
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| _Goblin | hello lich | Jul 05 11:03 |
| Lich | Hi all | Jul 05 11:03 |
| Lich | I opened a site dedicated to free and open source distribution and development :) | Jul 05 11:03 |
| _Goblin | link? | Jul 05 11:04 |
| Lich | www.zeusoft.net :P | Jul 05 11:06 |
| Lich | we are still updating | Jul 05 11:06 |
| Lich | opened few days ago | Jul 05 11:06 |
| _Goblin | cool...ill link it on my blog. | Jul 05 11:06 |
| Lich | we have idea of building Open source/ Free Disk | Jul 05 11:07 |
| Lich | something like universal disk with free software | Jul 05 11:07 |
| _Goblin | Nice layout of your site! | Jul 05 11:07 |
| _Goblin | puts me in mind of Nectarine.. | Jul 05 11:08 |
| Lich | thank you. The disk would come with operating system | Jul 05 11:08 |
| Lich | our target is now Open Source for Linux | Jul 05 11:09 |
| _Goblin | Im still working on my Workbench 1.3 project.... | Jul 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | http://www.ttcsweb.org/osswin-cd/ Ok I was thinking not another one like this. | Jul 05 11:09 |
| Lich | after that will aim at windows | Jul 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | There have be many attempts at disk for Linux. | Jul 05 11:09 |
| oiaohm | Biggest issue is packaging differences between distributions. | Jul 05 11:10 |
| Lich | yea i know | Jul 05 11:11 |
| Lich | First we will make it for windows | Jul 05 11:11 |
| Lich | but also include some linux programs | Jul 05 11:11 |
| oiaohm | For Linux things are on your side really. | Jul 05 11:11 |
| oiaohm | DRI2 and KMS alterations in time will allow more than 1 X11 server to be run. | Jul 05 11:12 |
| Lich | we will include Cedega in Windows CD | Jul 05 11:15 |
| oiaohm | Thinking I do support with the wine project. | Jul 05 11:16 |
| Lich | so the people could see linux programs on windows | Jul 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Cedega does have its limitations. | Jul 05 11:17 |
| oiaohm | Cedega is windows programs on Linux. | Jul 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | Like wine they are both related. | Jul 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | Comerical supported wine is cross over. | Jul 05 11:18 |
| Lich | hmm i think i confused it with linux program support for windows | Jul 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | http://www.openlina.com/ | Jul 05 11:18 |
| oiaohm | There are others. | Jul 05 11:19 |
| oiaohm | Something I would not mind seeing is a KDE disk for windows. | Jul 05 11:20 |
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| Carl_Rover2k12 | cj: whatsup | Jul 05 11:21 |
| Lich | We are currently looking for enthusiasts that are eager to help us to build CD | Jul 05 11:21 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | CD=? | Jul 05 11:21 |
| Lich | Open CD | Jul 05 11:21 |
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| Lich | An CD of open source and free programs | Jul 05 11:23 |
| Lich | A* | Jul 05 11:23 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | Lich: on a Windows OS? Does it happen to use that now discontinued app that strips Internet Explorer from it? | Jul 05 11:23 |
| Lich | What do you mean? Yes we are aiming for windows first | Jul 05 11:24 |
| _Goblin | Lich: Make sure you include Klibido on your disk...the best, most understated NG binaries grabber. | Jul 05 11:24 |
| Lich | Sure we are open for suggestions from users | Jul 05 11:25 |
| oiaohm | Lich my issue is a lot of software cd's for windows exist. | Jul 05 11:25 |
| oiaohm | In the open source world. | Jul 05 11:25 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | Lich: of course and it makes the most sense, but what kind of devs do you need then if all you need to do is take Windows XP strip it of IE and use FairUse4WM or some other app that removes DRM encoding then put it in a image | Jul 05 11:25 |
| oiaohm | What exactly will make what you create different to the crowd in the market Lich | Jul 05 11:26 |
| Lich | Carl the CD would be as the CD for starters | Jul 05 11:26 |
| Lich | we the software they would need. All legal and free. It would save their time plus it would be more effective to give them set of applications. | Jul 05 11:27 |
| oiaohm | Been done may times. | Jul 05 11:27 |
| Lich | We are planing to release CD bundled with applications for different groups. | Jul 05 11:27 |
| SpagCode | its called the internet, | Jul 05 11:27 |
| oiaohm | http://www.ttcsweb.org/osswin-cd/ << Look at what makes u the osswin-cd group Lich | Jul 05 11:28 |
| oiaohm | We really don't need duplication. | Jul 05 11:28 |
| Lich | i did | Jul 05 11:28 |
| oiaohm | There are others. | Jul 05 11:28 |
| oiaohm | What is missing is something like distrowatch for them. | Jul 05 11:28 |
| Lich | I know. | Jul 05 11:28 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | does anyone remember the name of that application which removed Internet Explorer and all its extensions, which then the developer was forced to stop due to a cease and desist or being "employed?" | Jul 05 11:29 |
| oiaohm | I normally do it the nlite method Carl_Rover2k12 | Jul 05 11:29 |
| Lich | Later we are thinking of shiping CD with some linux distributions(linux or windows programs cd ) | Jul 05 11:31 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | oiaohm: thanks, thats the app I was thinking of I heard there will be no update for Windows 7 | Jul 05 11:32 |
| Lich | The main difference im aiming for is making CD for different groups | Jul 05 11:34 |
| _Goblin | Lich...I have a list of progs which have not been updated for a while and are usually overlooked. Its a shame because there is some great stuff in there...... | Jul 05 11:37 |
| _Goblin | Klibido for example hasnt been updated since 2005...its still the best Nzb app out there (IMO) | Jul 05 11:37 |
| Lich | Well as i said we need user opinion we are open to every suggestion | Jul 05 11:39 |
| _Goblin | Maybe that is your "gap" in the market Lich? A disk full of rare titles that are very handy... | Jul 05 11:39 |
| _Goblin | I'll make you a list... | Jul 05 11:39 |
| _Goblin | although, much of it is src only so you will have to package yourself.. | Jul 05 11:40 |
| Lich | sure NP | Jul 05 11:40 |
| Lich | the list would be nice | Jul 05 11:40 |
| _Goblin | yeah np....Ill hunt my archives! | Jul 05 11:41 |
| oiaohm | Carl_Rover2k12: vlite is the vista releation. | Jul 05 11:48 |
| oiaohm | Carl_Rover2k12: At this stage no Windows 7 version has been made. The lite programs are always created after the offical release. | Jul 05 11:49 |
| oiaohm | Issue I have is without targets I cannot even pick you list of suitable software to sort through to make a cd Lich | Jul 05 11:53 |
| Lich | np you can give us what you find | Jul 05 11:56 |
| oiaohm | http://www.theopendisc.com/education/ This one is education targeted. | Jul 05 11:56 |
| Lich | we'll think of something | Jul 05 11:57 |
| oiaohm | My list of applications is huge. | Jul 05 11:57 |
| oiaohm | There is at least 10 000 applications from the open source world that work on windows. | Jul 05 11:58 |
| oiaohm | http://os.cqu.edu.au/oswinsdvd/ One of the more interesting existing disk designs. its a mixture of free open source and documentation. | Jul 05 12:01 |
| oiaohm | Really I think start creating a index site of the pre existing Lich | Jul 05 12:05 |
| Lich | i will | Jul 05 12:05 |
| Lich | btw while im making a list can someone please tell me what's ReactOS | Jul 05 12:06 |
| Lich | i know it's linux based | Jul 05 12:06 |
| oiaohm | Wrong | Jul 05 12:07 |
| _Goblin | its an implimentation that uses Wine code isnt it? | Jul 05 12:07 |
| _Goblin | to provide a XP replacement | Jul 05 12:07 |
| oiaohm | ReactOS developers would kill you for that state ment Lich | Jul 05 12:07 |
| _Goblin | via a replacement Win API | Jul 05 12:07 |
| _Goblin | or am I wrong there? | Jul 05 12:08 |
| oiaohm | ReactOS is a pure clone of the internal design of NT kernel that includes XP even areas of Vista and windows 7 | Jul 05 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Its still an alpha Lich | Jul 05 12:08 |
| oiaohm | Open source old motto cannot beat them clone them. | Jul 05 12:09 |
| _Goblin | from briefly looking at it now, Id suggest you are better off with a Linux/Wine distro for Windows compat... | Jul 05 12:09 |
| Lich | no i accidently run on it founding it | Jul 05 12:09 |
| SpagCode | if you cant beat them, be them | Jul 05 12:10 |
| _Goblin | if you want something different, try AROS | Jul 05 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Reactos is complete enough to run all the windows drivers yet. | Jul 05 12:10 |
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| oiaohm | So when it comes to hardware support its behind Linux at this stage. | Jul 05 12:11 |
| _Goblin | lich: First page of ReactOS "This is not a Linux based system, and shares none of the unix architecture." | Jul 05 12:12 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of edge OS in the open source world that are unique. | Jul 05 12:12 |
| oiaohm | AROS is a strange one. It can either run on Linux or its own unique kernel. | Jul 05 12:13 |
| Lich | Anyway i just don't see the point of it | Jul 05 12:13 |
| oiaohm | Its just the normal Open Source world. | Jul 05 12:13 |
| _Goblin | Oiaohm, did I read somewhere that Reactos is based on much of the Wine code???? I'm sure I saw that somewhere..... | Jul 05 12:13 |
| _Goblin | could be wrong of course. | Jul 05 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Wine dlls are used in Reactos. | Jul 05 12:14 |
| _Goblin | ah | Jul 05 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Wine dlls can operate on windows as well. | Jul 05 12:14 |
| oiaohm | Also Reactos uses Wine test cases to prevent regressions. | Jul 05 12:14 |
| oiaohm | There is some sharing between the two projects | Jul 05 12:14 |
| oiaohm | http://www.jnode.org/ << Compared to this Reactos does have a point Lich | Jul 05 12:15 |
| _Goblin | but as the MS faithful would say "Dont worry there is always XPM mode in 7" they just dont tell you there is no DX support. | Jul 05 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Or working opengl support. | Jul 05 12:16 |
| _Goblin | and if you don't have the correct processor, tough luck. | Jul 05 12:16 |
| oiaohm | With wined3d if you had working opengl you can get DirectX at least partly working. | Jul 05 12:16 |
| _Goblin | oh and lets not forget, its only available in the more expensive 7 versions. | Jul 05 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Yes wined3d part of wine has developers from companies who make virtual machines. | Jul 05 12:17 |
| _Goblin | and oiohm, Ive had quite good results with Wined3d | Jul 05 12:17 |
| oiaohm | And make sure it runs on windows. | Jul 05 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Wine project has hooks in all kinds of directions. | Jul 05 12:18 |
| Lich | Windows 7 is just scam | Jul 05 12:18 |
| _Goblin | Its not a scam for Vista users....anythings better than that.... | Jul 05 12:18 |
| _Goblin | ;) | Jul 05 12:18 |
| Lich | tough that's true | Jul 05 12:19 |
| _Goblin | Those are the people that will have to upgrade. | Jul 05 12:19 |
| _Goblin | everyone else will stay with XP. | Jul 05 12:19 |
| _Goblin | or move elsewhere | Jul 05 12:19 |
| Lich | i have strange opinion that they are using bugged kernel for all NT OS like they can't develope new kernel | Jul 05 12:19 |
| oiaohm | When samba has a working ADS that should be end of this year middle of next MS server rooms will be in trouble. | Jul 05 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Why pay for windows when you have unlimited cals with samba. | Jul 05 12:20 |
| oiaohm | NT kernel design is quite good really. | Jul 05 12:20 |
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| oiaohm | MS implementation in places suxs big time. | Jul 05 12:21 |
| oiaohm | MS problem is applications. MS was trying to get app developers to use .net something not native to make platform transfer simpler. | Jul 05 12:22 |
| oiaohm | Second wave of Linux push for desktop will start when Linux gets control of the server room. | Jul 05 12:23 |
| SpagCode | to win the desktop you have to win the hearts and minds of the average computer user, that person does not even know they are using XP or Vista or whatever, thats most people. | Jul 05 12:26 |
| oiaohm | You just stated why you don't need to win the harts and minds. | Jul 05 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Only people you really need to win is management. | Jul 05 12:27 |
| oiaohm | Because users don't care SpagCode | Jul 05 12:27 |
| Lich | They want something easy to use | Jul 05 12:28 |
| oiaohm | And don't care what. | Jul 05 12:28 |
| SpagCode | they dont care because what they have does what they want. | Jul 05 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Wrong SpagCode | Jul 05 12:28 |
| oiaohm | They simple don't care. | Jul 05 12:29 |
| oiaohm | Anything that will do what they want is suitable. | Jul 05 12:29 |
| SpagCode | but for a reason, like it or not. and thats the reason. | Jul 05 12:29 |
| Lich | they just need job done | Jul 05 12:29 |
| oiaohm | People use Linux phones and don't care. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| oiaohm | People use Linux routers and don't care. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| SpagCode | ofcourse they do. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| oiaohm | As long as it works they will not care. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| oiaohm | No need to win them. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| SpagCode | thats right, thats what I said, as long as it does what they want and expect they dont care. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| oiaohm | That is not the battle to win. | Jul 05 12:30 |
| oiaohm | OEM and system admins are the ones you have to win. | Jul 05 12:31 |
| Lich | Btw once the Linux get's game company support it's: Don't cry for me Microsoft | Jul 05 12:31 |
| SpagCode | So for them to change from something they dont care about to your product you have to make them care, or force them to use it. | Jul 05 12:31 |
| oiaohm | OEM like windows because of all the kick backs from trial ware. | Jul 05 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Effectively it costs OEMS money to put Linux on at the moment. | Jul 05 12:31 |
| oiaohm | Because kick backs are more than the Licence cost of windows. | Jul 05 12:32 |
| SpagCode | ofcourse it does, it also costs you to put on Windows, but with linux MS takes responsibility for OS and software upkeep. | Jul 05 12:32 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 05 12:32 |
| SpagCode | Does you employer get kickbacks ? | Jul 05 12:32 |
| oiaohm | Yes. | Jul 05 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Windows is -35 dollars on a machine with trialware. | Jul 05 12:33 |
| SpagCode | If they got kickbacks, it would be all over the WEB, with whistleblowers | Jul 05 12:33 |
| oiaohm | MS Office Trail version is paided to be there. | Jul 05 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Trail versions of anti-virus are paid to be there and so on. | Jul 05 12:34 |
| oiaohm | If company don't pay OEM will not place it on system that simple as a trial. | Jul 05 12:34 |
| SpagCode | is minus $35 a kickback. | Jul 05 12:34 |
| SpagCode | sounds like a discount, | Jul 05 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Ie 35 dollars less | Jul 05 12:34 |
| oiaohm | With windows on. | Jul 05 12:35 |
| SpagCode | but a kickback is a sum of money paid for a legal purchase. | Jul 05 12:35 |
| oiaohm | If person wants a clean machine they pay full windows price. | Jul 05 12:35 |
| SpagCode | yea, a discount | Jul 05 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Jul 05 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Lot of cases trialware makes computer slow. | Jul 05 12:35 |
| SpagCode | nothing wrong with discounts, to big customers, and thats not a kickback as you well know | Jul 05 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Linux lacks enough trialware. | Jul 05 12:36 |
| oiaohm | Once Linux has enough of that money advantage of windows will disappear for OEMs. | Jul 05 12:36 |
| SpagCode | by definition all software will make your computer slower, sure if you have a computer with no software running is a super fast ?? no | Jul 05 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Note the OEMs don't pass along most of the discount. | Jul 05 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Wrong SpagCode | Jul 05 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Not all software makes computer slower just by being installed. | Jul 05 12:37 |
| SpagCode | probably not because OEM try to ship linux and the customer dont want it. | Jul 05 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Only running software makes it slower. | Jul 05 12:37 |
| oiaohm | OEM's will do anything to make profit and beat competition. | Jul 05 12:38 |
| oiaohm | If OEM's were happy with Windows performance they would not be shipping with splashtop and the like. | Jul 05 12:38 |
| SpagCode | neither does trialware slow by just being installed, again as you should know, its only running apps that take cpu cycles, that means its running, | Jul 05 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Lot of trialware runs services to do there monitoring and countdown. | Jul 05 12:39 |
| oiaohm | So yes effects speed of the system from being installed SpagCode | Jul 05 12:39 |
| SpagCode | users are happy with windows performance, and that whey they overwhelmingly choose. | Jul 05 12:39 |
| oiaohm | Again a joke. | Jul 05 12:39 |
| oiaohm | There is a booming rip off business selling tools to make windows faster. | Jul 05 12:40 |
| oiaohm | That really don't work or break the OS completely. | Jul 05 12:40 |
| oiaohm | That market only exists because users are unhappy SpagCode | Jul 05 12:40 |
| SpagCode | booming market, Sure there is. :) | Jul 05 12:41 |
| oiaohm | You cannot call windows users happy. | Jul 05 12:41 |
| SpagCode | I hear your in the computer industry, you should know better, or do you think if you say it enough times it will become true ? | Jul 05 12:41 |
| oiaohm | I deal with windows users a lot. | Jul 05 12:42 |
| oiaohm | Most common question is how to make this machine faster. | Jul 05 12:42 |
| trmanco | cool | Jul 05 12:43 |
| oiaohm | Also having to fix up machines after users have used those so called speed up software. | Jul 05 12:43 |
| trmanco | Jason has accepted me :> | Jul 05 12:43 |
| SpagCode | I deal with them alot too, and in the real world too. | Jul 05 12:43 |
| trmanco | from mono nono | Jul 05 12:43 |
| oiaohm | Splashtop is OEM trying to answer the users demards for faster. | Jul 05 12:43 |
| SpagCode | and having faster computers is the goal of most people after using a computer for awile. | Jul 05 12:43 |
| oiaohm | While still making profit threw trial and install kick backs. | Jul 05 12:43 |
| oiaohm | No having computer work faster. | Jul 05 12:44 |
| oiaohm | Not just faster computer. | Jul 05 12:44 |
| oiaohm | OS that needs more resources so removing the gains of faster computer is not making user happy. | Jul 05 12:44 |
| oiaohm | Argument that windows users is happy is not backed up by there actions. | Jul 05 12:45 |
| oiaohm | MS missed the memo with Vista that users wanted faster working computer. | Jul 05 12:46 |
| Lich | I must say that an average users still has impresion of when you say linux to him he think about system with CMD | Jul 05 12:46 |
| Lich | user* | Jul 05 12:46 |
| SpagCode | for the past mabey 10 years, computers are "lightnight fast" its to the point most users perceive almost zero delay when they perform functions, its only the diehard gamers who chase massive FPS values | Jul 05 12:46 |
| Lich | thinks* | Jul 05 12:46 |
| oiaohm | LOL SpagCode | Jul 05 12:46 |
| oiaohm | Software is doing more these days. So all the CPU performance gains have ment basically nothing to user speed of operations. Creating a basic letter on windows 3.11 with MS works 4.5 on a machine from 1994 is faster than creating a letter using word on XP. | Jul 05 12:48 |
| oiaohm | From basic operation tests we have gone backwards. | Jul 05 12:48 |
| oiaohm | Vista was just following the trend and users said enough is enough. | Jul 05 12:49 |
| SpagCode | I can have huge amount of apps running and my cpu will be limping along at well below 50%, and 1% or less with no apps and just the OS. | Jul 05 12:49 |
| Lich | Windows doesn't manage well what you give to him | Jul 05 12:49 |
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| oiaohm | Windows very rarely can allocate over 60 percent of your total CPU power. | Jul 05 12:50 |
| oiaohm | Lot of time is wasted in CPU consuming locks. | Jul 05 12:50 |
| SpagCode | does it all the time, routinely | Jul 05 12:51 |
| oiaohm | 100 percent in ms reporting. | Jul 05 12:51 |
| oiaohm | Is not 100 percent cpu usage. | Jul 05 12:51 |
| oiaohm | Locks count as usage. | Jul 05 12:51 |
| SpagCode | again i think you are saying what you would like to be the case and what is not really the case, and you sound like a smart guy, do you think you are fooling many ?? | Jul 05 12:52 |
| oiaohm | Speek to reactos developers about the locking errors in windows. | Jul 05 12:52 |
| oiaohm | Windows 7 only has addressed some of them. | Jul 05 12:52 |
| oiaohm | The information is out there if you want to find it SpagCode. In docuentation writing about windows internals by third parties and all. | Jul 05 12:53 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel is only now starting to get on top of its locking troubles. | Jul 05 12:55 |
| oiaohm | Locking issues are not unique to windows SpagCode | Jul 05 12:56 |
| oiaohm | For cost from Locking issues MS is about the worse OS out there. | Jul 05 12:57 |
| SpagCode | what im saying is Windows XP, Vista, Win7 all are quick enough and the average users does not even usually know which one they are using or care. | Jul 05 12:57 |
| SpagCode | and they would not know or care about locks or cpu cycles | Jul 05 12:57 |
| oiaohm | Then why do average users go hunting down tools to increase performance. | Jul 05 12:57 |
| oiaohm | There actions don't match your words. | Jul 05 12:58 |
| SpagCode | generally they dont, as you know. | Jul 05 12:58 |
| oiaohm | Generally they do. | Jul 05 12:58 |
| oiaohm | Asking people how to increase the speed of there machines and so on. | Jul 05 12:58 |
| oiaohm | That is the problem SpagCode | Jul 05 12:59 |
| oiaohm | Does not help due to design issues that windows does slow down the longer it is installed. | Jul 05 13:00 |
| SpagCode | well its obviously not enough of a problem for them to actively look for an alternative product or even care when product they are actually using. | Jul 05 13:00 |
| SpagCode | yes, Win95 used to slow down very tru, XP on no. | Jul 05 13:01 |
| oiaohm | How do you look for a different product if you don't see the different product. | Jul 05 13:01 |
| oiaohm | XP does too SpagCode | Jul 05 13:01 |
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| oiaohm | Logs and other things do have prices SpagCode. | Jul 05 13:01 |
| SpagCode | I had the same version of XP on the same machine for 8 years, and no it does not. | Jul 05 13:01 |
| oiaohm | What tools did you run on it to keep it that way. Or has it been sitting in a carboard box for 8 years. | Jul 05 13:03 |
| SpagCode | no it was on the net all day everyday, and on most of the time, all I ever had was AvgFree | Jul 05 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact here there are many operations in XP design that will slow it down. | Jul 05 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Like growing registries and logs. | Jul 05 13:05 |
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| oiaohm | Maybe you are one of the few that don't notice. | Jul 05 13:05 |
| oiaohm | Please note the few that don't notice is the smaller percentage. | Jul 05 13:06 |
| SpagCode | the size of the registary does not make any difference to speed, the reg is a RDB system, and mabey I deleted IE temp directory contence every year or so. | Jul 05 13:06 |
| SpagCode | and defrag mabey once every 2 years | Jul 05 13:06 |
| oiaohm | See you are doing things. | Jul 05 13:07 |
| oiaohm | Reg does make a differrence over time larger it gets high risk it has of fragmenting internally. | Jul 05 13:07 |
| oiaohm | So becoming slow to perform look ups on. | Jul 05 13:08 |
| SpagCode | Only an idiot would not do any "housekeeping" and basic precausions. | Jul 05 13:08 |
| oiaohm | You are talking 90 percent of users. | Jul 05 13:08 |
| oiaohm | Who don't do housekeeping. | Jul 05 13:08 |
| oiaohm | Reason there work machines don't need it. | Jul 05 13:08 |
| oiaohm | And the reason for that is the system admins are doing it | Jul 05 13:09 |
| SpagCode | actually most do have some knowledge of anti-virus programs and most even know about defrag and even checkdisk. | Jul 05 13:09 |
| oiaohm | Lot skip doing defrags after a while. | Jul 05 13:09 |
| SpagCode | but alot dont, just as alot of people can drive a car but cannot fix one. | Jul 05 13:09 |
| oiaohm | So to the general the machine just slows down over time. | Jul 05 13:10 |
| oiaohm | Then they get tools sold to magically fix it and kill there machines. | Jul 05 13:10 |
| SpagCode | even defrags or lack of them dont make much difference. | Jul 05 13:11 |
| SpagCode | as you know the biggest impact is the RAM and whether you have opened that app before, so its sill in memory. | Jul 05 13:11 |
| oiaohm | logs and registry are bigger causes than disk fragmentation. | Jul 05 13:11 |
| SpagCode | try, starting a pc running word, shutting it down and running it again, the second time it will load far faster. | Jul 05 13:12 |
| oiaohm | I have speed a machine up simply by clearing ntuser.dat | Jul 05 13:12 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: Linux is the same. | Jul 05 13:12 |
| oiaohm | When a program is run its not straight up deleted from memory. | Jul 05 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Difference under some applications use fast starters to do it so making start up slower. | Jul 05 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Windows world applications are highly dirty in the methods they are using as well. | Jul 05 13:14 |
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| oiaohm | Nice has been UAC in vista. Lot of applications have added a service to perform operations they would need UAC for as a higher user. So user does not get UAC messages. | Jul 05 13:15 |
| oiaohm | All these things have prices. | Jul 05 13:16 |
| oiaohm | Linux desktop developers woke up to this problem added a thing called dbus. A single management service to allow high right things to be started on need. So avoiding the startup overhead and backround cpu usage. | Jul 05 13:17 |
| ThistleWeb | to be fair, all this user permission safety must be a relatively new concept for windows developers, they only had to start thinking about it with vista | Jul 05 13:17 |
| ThistleWeb | before vista they could assume the user was an admin | Jul 05 13:18 |
| ThistleWeb | or had admin rights, even if they were a joe sixpack | Jul 05 13:18 |
| oiaohm | Also lot of window developers don't want to respect user permissions. | Jul 05 13:18 |
| oiaohm | I remember my argument in wine mailing list over it. | Jul 05 13:19 |
| ThistleWeb | asking users permission means that they have to explain what they want, in a way that users understand, or risk the user saying no | Jul 05 13:19 |
| ThistleWeb | if they can avoid asking, they avoid that risk | Jul 05 13:19 |
| oiaohm | Stupid idea just because wine was running on Linux had the idea as a normal user could do anything without risking running in the Mandoray access control | Jul 05 13:19 |
| ThistleWeb | presumed consent | Jul 05 13:19 |
| oiaohm | And cause the program to be terminated. | Jul 05 13:19 |
| oiaohm | How windows coders are responding to the restrictsions are hack around costing performance. | Jul 05 13:20 |
| ThistleWeb | developers who have been living in a windows only world for years have gotten into habits that the UAC is forcing them to adjust to | Jul 05 13:21 |
| oiaohm | No | Jul 05 13:21 |
| oiaohm | They adjusted just by pass with a service. | Jul 05 13:21 |
| oiaohm | So don't bother respecting UAC at all. | Jul 05 13:21 |
| ThistleWeb | so it's a bypass they didnt have to do before UAC | Jul 05 13:21 |
| ThistleWeb | they still have to react to it | Jul 05 13:22 |
| ThistleWeb | or their apps dont run, and their customers find other apps that do | Jul 05 13:22 |
| ThistleWeb | adjusting to, and respecting are not the same thing, although they could be | Jul 05 13:22 |
| oiaohm | UAC was a flawed design. | Jul 05 13:23 |
| oiaohm | It should have restricted services as well. | Jul 05 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Then I have windows developers who say if that happens they would just look at injecting code to bi pass. | Jul 05 13:23 |
| SpagCode | what is there to adjust too ? clicking "OK" hmmm done that once or twice. | Jul 05 13:23 |
| oiaohm | They are about as bad as virus writers. | Jul 05 13:23 |
| ThistleWeb | it took Microsoft YEARS of complaints to introduce any concept of user permission control, UAC is a first attempt, in their usual clugey way | Jul 05 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Lets take Linux policy kit basically Linux world UAC. | Jul 05 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Number 1 Linux policykit can remember what applications are allowed todo. | Jul 05 13:25 |
| oiaohm | From day 1. | Jul 05 13:25 |
| oiaohm | It was designed 3 years before MS created UAC. | Jul 05 13:25 |
| ThistleWeb | unix / linux was built with user permission from the start, rather than a bolted on sticky plaster | Jul 05 13:25 |
| oiaohm | NT was designed with user permissions from the start too. | Jul 05 13:25 |
| oiaohm | For years MS just disabled them. | Jul 05 13:25 |
| ThistleWeb | I should have said "user running as a user, rather than root" | Jul 05 13:26 |
| oiaohm | By allowing users to run with max rights. | Jul 05 13:26 |
| oiaohm | Lets look at why UAC makes so much noise. | Jul 05 13:26 |
| oiaohm | The idea was that UAC would upset users so much they would complain to application developers to fix there applications. | Jul 05 13:27 |
| SpagCode | the only noise about it comes from Linux users. | Jul 05 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Result was simple. Users don't care. | Jul 05 13:27 |
| SpagCode | no one else cares ! | Jul 05 13:27 |
| oiaohm | So users just found ways to turn UAC off. | Jul 05 13:27 |
| Eruaran | What a load of rubbish SpagCode | Jul 05 13:27 |
| oiaohm | And basically sent no complaints to software developers. | Jul 05 13:28 |
| Eruaran | I've long since lost count of how many customers who have complained about UAC | Jul 05 13:28 |
| ThistleWeb | my understanding of the initial hassle with UAC is that most M$ apps are set to run their stuff as admin, as they could be almost assured that every user had admin rights, so when that got lowered, it needed to ask at every turn, which means a flood of questions that most users didn't understand, so they just turned it off | Jul 05 13:28 |
| Eruaran | Your'e full of shit | Jul 05 13:28 |
| oiaohm | Software developers work around UAC. | Jul 05 13:28 |
| oiaohm | So they don't get picked up in QA. | Jul 05 13:28 |
| oiaohm | They complain about UAC. | Jul 05 13:28 |
| oiaohm | Not the applications triggering it Eruaran. | Jul 05 13:29 |
| Eruaran | Everyone complains about UAC | Jul 05 13:29 |
| oiaohm | And basically works out how to turn it off so they can do there work Eruaran | Jul 05 13:29 |
| ThistleWeb | after apps have been adjusted to deal with UAC, they get less or no questions, whether that's the app set to run at a proper user level, or a workaround to get permission by not asking | Jul 05 13:29 |
| Eruaran | Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot who doesn't listen to people or just a flunky pushing Microsoft's tilt on the world | Jul 05 13:29 |
| SpagCode | ok whatever you recon | Jul 05 13:30 |
| Eruaran | yeah I do | Jul 05 13:30 |
| Eruaran | I deal with real people every day mate | Jul 05 13:30 |
| ThistleWeb | so it's not too hard to believe that 2 years after Vista has been out, many apps have been adjusted already, as well as Microsoft trying to do what they can to save Vista | Jul 05 13:30 |
| oiaohm | What are they compainign about UAC or the application cause UAC to show messages SpagCode | Jul 05 13:30 |
| Eruaran | Not people living in their own little bubble's who like to pretend they know something about the real world | Jul 05 13:30 |
| ThistleWeb | so I can believe that the UAC aint as annoying now as it was | Jul 05 13:30 |
| oiaohm | Users only care about UAC because its getting in the way. | Jul 05 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Only thing users truly care about is getting stuff done. | Jul 05 13:31 |
| oiaohm | They don't care about OS they don't care about applications. | Jul 05 13:31 |
| ThistleWeb | the problem for any questions the PC asks, and the normal user, is they dont understand the questions a lot of the time, and dont know if they should allow or deny something, so they almost always allow it, in case denying it breaks something and they dont know how to reverse it | Jul 05 13:32 |
| ThistleWeb | which defeats the purpose | Jul 05 13:32 |
| oiaohm | And they really don't want to be asked either. | Jul 05 13:32 |
| ThistleWeb | exactly | Jul 05 13:32 |
| oiaohm | Because the question does not have anything to do with getting the job done. | Jul 05 13:32 |
| oiaohm | Its why saying users are happy with any OS is the biggest lie. | Jul 05 13:33 |
| ThistleWeb | it's like firewall training, the first time you run an app after installing one it can be set to ask the user for yes or no | Jul 05 13:33 |
| oiaohm | The question really is what does that OS/software allow user to do fast. | Jul 05 13:34 |
| ThistleWeb | that should all be done for the user before they get their pc, with sensible setups | Jul 05 13:34 |
| oiaohm | That is most likely the reason why they are using it. | Jul 05 13:34 |
| oiaohm | With preinstalled OS's is simply straight up use the machine. | Jul 05 13:34 |
| oiaohm | So why bother changing. | Jul 05 13:34 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Jul 05 13:34 |
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| oiaohm | So of someone release a Linux machine that does everything people want to do simply it will sell. | Jul 05 13:36 |
| oiaohm | OS is really not a factor. | Jul 05 13:36 |
| oiaohm | I guess that is not what you are expecting to hear SpagCode. That users really don't care about much. | Jul 05 13:37 |
| oiaohm | System admins and OEM's have stuff releated to the OS to care about. Like working secuirty and profit lines. | Jul 05 13:38 |
| SpagCode | as long it does it how they want it too, and uses software that is everywhere, including for their Cell phone and everything with a one click install file. mabey | Jul 05 13:38 |
| SpagCode | I know users dont care, as long as when they have does what they want, like and know. | Jul 05 13:39 |
| ThistleWeb | windows is designed for making money for companies | Jul 05 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Linux has not fixed look and feel SpagCode | Jul 05 13:39 |
| oiaohm | So it can look and feel like any OS in existance. | Jul 05 13:40 |
| SpagCode | most products are, by providing something people are willing to pay for. | Jul 05 13:40 |
| ThistleWeb | gotta love M$ giving away a free anti-virus, to fill holes left by uhm......M$ in designing windows | Jul 05 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Or users don't know better SpagCode. | Jul 05 13:40 |
| oiaohm | I know people who buy full MS office just for typing letters. | Jul 05 13:40 |
| ThistleWeb | mind you, if they did their jobs right and made windows secure, they'd kill a lot of businesses who have kept them afloat for years, like Symantic | Jul 05 13:40 |
| SpagCode | is giving away software bad ? | Jul 05 13:41 |
| oiaohm | This is MS secound attempt at an anti-virus. | Jul 05 13:41 |
| oiaohm | First attempt was a complete failure. | Jul 05 13:41 |
| ThistleWeb | it is indeed, after one-care | Jul 05 13:41 |
| ThistleWeb | which got consistently low reviews | Jul 05 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Ok third attempt. | Jul 05 13:41 |
| oiaohm | There was one back in the dos age. | Jul 05 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Using crc checksums. | Jul 05 13:42 |
| ThistleWeb | they do have a track record of consistency, ya have to hand it to them, consistently shit | Jul 05 13:42 |
| ThistleWeb | I notice the Symantic boss telling users not to be too reliant on free anti-virus apps | Jul 05 13:42 |
| oiaohm | Also you know they are woried when they funding developers to add real-time scanning hooking to the Linux kernel. | Jul 05 13:43 |
| oiaohm | To the mainline Linux kernel. | Jul 05 13:43 |
| oiaohm | So they can keep on selling there product. | Jul 05 13:43 |
| ThistleWeb | they have the security of their customers in mind of course, which is strange, as if they did, they wouldn't make windows apps, and would tell their customers to start with a secure base system.....which would of course mean that security companies like Symantic wouldn't have customers | Jul 05 13:43 |
| oiaohm | MS move into anti-virus may give Linux OEM money from anti-virus trial versions. | Jul 05 13:44 |
| ThistleWeb | so the real message is "keep paying us for a false sense of security, while in reality you're on a system that will keep getting infected and that's just the way we like it" | Jul 05 13:44 |
| oiaohm | That would make the cost of windows and Linux equal. | Jul 05 13:45 |
| ThistleWeb | I just find it iffy that the company making and selling the product, also makes the patches, so why dont they just fix the holes in the first place, rather than introduce a product which does and keep the holes there, so there's a need for the product to fix them | Jul 05 13:46 |
| ThistleWeb | it's 2 parts of the company with opposite motivations | Jul 05 13:46 |
| ThistleWeb | if the OS guys do too good of a job, the AV guys have no product | Jul 05 13:47 |
| ThistleWeb | and vice cersa | Jul 05 13:47 |
| SpagCode | but its ok for ubuntu to ship with 60,000 bugs ? | Jul 05 13:47 |
| oiaohm | AV has a place on mail servers for cleaning out junk. | Jul 05 13:47 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: how many of those bugs exploitable. | Jul 05 13:47 |
| ThistleWeb | luckily it's Microsoft we're talking about here, so "doing too good of a job" is never gonna be an issue lol | Jul 05 13:47 |
| oiaohm | You think Windows ships bugless. | Jul 05 13:48 |
| ThistleWeb | how many are critical? | Jul 05 13:48 |
| SpagCode | probably many, not to mention the many that may have yet to be detected. | Jul 05 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu when you take in the number of applications those 60000 bugs cover its not many per application. | Jul 05 13:48 |
| ThistleWeb | look at your windows update descriptions, "this may allow remote users to execute code on your machine....." | Jul 05 13:48 |
| SpagCode | If you can have that many bugs how many buffer overflowes and memory leaks dont they know about. | Jul 05 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Also does not help that wine has 4000+ bugs alone not exploitable. | Jul 05 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Just don't run things. | Jul 05 13:49 |
| oiaohm | How many are missing feature bugs SpagCode | Jul 05 13:50 |
| SpagCode | having that many bugs at all is unacceptable, what does that say for pear review, quality assurance, and every line of code looked at by "many eyes". | Jul 05 13:50 |
| oiaohm | When you start breaking the numbers down you find there are not that many bugs. | Jul 05 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Wrong SpagCode | Jul 05 13:50 |
| ThistleWeb | one problem microsoft have is the monoculture, peeps know a windows user has apps like Windows Explorer installed, so writing viruses to exploit holes in that will get all windows users who have not patched | Jul 05 13:50 |
| SpagCode | if the "many eyes" cant find the bugs, how are they going to find backdoors, and exploits ? | Jul 05 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Finding the bugs is one thing. | Jul 05 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Fixing them is another. | Jul 05 13:51 |
| SpagCode | and that number is getting larger not smaller, and fast too. | Jul 05 13:51 |
| oiaohm | To be expected. | Jul 05 13:51 |
| oiaohm | More users more features they want. | Jul 05 13:51 |
| oiaohm | More things they want to work. | Jul 05 13:52 |
| ThistleWeb | both microsoft and apple have stock prices, company preception etc to manage too, which is why they tend to play down stuff, and announce a flaw / exploit (called a bug) when they have a fix, and appear as the saviour on the IT media telling peeps to go update | Jul 05 13:52 |
| oiaohm | There is no link between security flaw numbers and bug numbers on open source software. | Jul 05 13:52 |
| ThistleWeb | they have new versions of apps to sell, which means managing paid manpower to holding features back for the next version, or fixing annoying bugs | Jul 05 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Bugs get sorted SpagCode. Possiable secuirty flaws go to first on list to be looked at with Ubuntu. | Jul 05 13:53 |
| ThistleWeb | FOSS stuff is mostly free of cost, so there's no need for that extra layer | Jul 05 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Anything that is just a missing feature is getting left. | Jul 05 13:53 |
| oiaohm | The numbers of wanted features are growing at a insane rate. | Jul 05 13:54 |
| SpagCode | you dont know that, if you say you cant fix the bugs, you dont know why or how they occur or if they post a security risk, your just guessing that the broken bit is not broken in an exploiatable way . | Jul 05 13:54 |
| oiaohm | LOL SpagCode | Jul 05 13:54 |
| oiaohm | There are particular things required to create a secuirty flaw. | Jul 05 13:54 |
| SpagCode | Bugs are NOT getting sorted, the bug list has trippled in the past few months, it was 20k bugs a few months ago. | Jul 05 13:55 |
| oiaohm | They are SpagCode | Jul 05 13:55 |
| oiaohm | One of the biggest duplicate bugs in there is pulseaudio. | Jul 05 13:56 |
| SpagCode | you may think that is ok, but most would read that as systemic and major problems. | Jul 05 13:56 |
| oiaohm | And I don't use pulseaudio. | Jul 05 13:56 |
| oiaohm | Wonder why. | Jul 05 13:56 |
| ThistleWeb | there's also a difference between someone paid to sit in a chair and code 9-5 and someone who wants to code on a project because they love it, and love making it better, love being part of the community around that project, and the friends they have in IRC etc It makes them pay more attention to their final output, as a matter of pride | Jul 05 13:56 |
| ThistleWeb | often the paid devs employed by companies like M$ have no stake in the stuff the do | Jul 05 13:57 |
| ThistleWeb | they get a wage | Jul 05 13:57 |
| ThistleWeb | if it goes out with bugs, that's cool, it keeps them employed during the support phase | Jul 05 13:57 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: I said there was no link between number of bugs and secuirty flaws. | Jul 05 13:57 |
| oiaohm | I did not say that having massive numbers of missing features driving users nuts was good. | Jul 05 13:58 |
| SpagCode | sure, i understand pride thats why im amazed at some of the code that passes for quaility in FOSS. | Jul 05 13:58 |
| ThistleWeb | SpagCode: lmao | Jul 05 13:58 |
| ThistleWeb | you really are clueless ain't ya | Jul 05 13:58 |
| ThistleWeb | either that or here to entertain us | Jul 05 13:59 |
| oiaohm | You are aware that buffer overflows should be impossiable to happen SpagCode. | Jul 05 13:59 |
| oiaohm | And should have been impossiable for the last 20 years. | Jul 05 13:59 |
| SpagCode | no, its ok, 60,000 bugs is FINE, :D | Jul 05 13:59 |
| ThistleWeb | 60,000 with how many dupes? | Jul 05 14:00 |
| oiaohm | Bufferoverflows can be made not functional by the complier suporting particular things. | Jul 05 14:00 |
| ThistleWeb | how many of these have been fixed, and only one dupe is marked as fixed, while the rest are left out | Jul 05 14:00 |
| oiaohm | MS has used crappy compliers and lot of distributions don't enable protection from buffer overflows. | Jul 05 14:01 |
| ThistleWeb | as oiaohm has been pointing out a bug is not the same as a security exploit | Jul 05 14:01 |
| oiaohm | So any attack that is using a buffer overflow is pure incompetents. | Jul 05 14:01 |
| oiaohm | I am not nice about a lot of distrobutions. | Jul 05 14:02 |
| oiaohm | 60 000 open bugs is not fine. But does not have to be a secuirty problem. | Jul 05 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Lot of those bugs also have come from Intel driver issues. | Jul 05 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Simply the driver not working with particular cards. | Jul 05 14:03 |
| ThistleWeb | out of curiosity, how many bugs does any version of windows or osx have? Bare in mind neither Microsoft or Apple make that public | Jul 05 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Or terminting when running particular applications. | Jul 05 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Not exposing a single secuirty flaw in the process. | Jul 05 14:03 |
| ThistleWeb | they like to play saviour at update time | Jul 05 14:04 |
| oiaohm | osx you get a clearer idea by running code auditing tools on darwin. | Jul 05 14:04 |
| oiaohm | MS I could find out if I wanted to sign a MS NDA> | Jul 05 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Its just like the idea that windows souce code cannot be accessed. | Jul 05 14:05 |
| oiaohm | It can be by signing a NDA with MS. | Jul 05 14:05 |
| ThistleWeb | Microsoft also like to compare bugs / flaws / exploits on Windows (excluding a lot of stuff) against a full Ubuntu distro including everything from firefox to tomboy | Jul 05 14:05 |
| ThistleWeb | anything they do announce is the usual stacked deck of FUD | Jul 05 14:06 |
| oiaohm | http://www.advogato.org/article/51.html I also find it funny. | Jul 05 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Ubuntu has not even reached windows 2000 number of bugs yet. | Jul 05 14:08 |
| oiaohm | When it first shiped. | Jul 05 14:08 |
| oiaohm | And that was a lot smaller product SpagCode | Jul 05 14:09 |
| SpagCode | how do you know how many they (MS has ? | Jul 05 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Had | Jul 05 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Documents have leaked at different times SpagCode | Jul 05 14:10 |
| oiaohm | We have no current numbers. | Jul 05 14:10 |
| oiaohm | It would be nice if there was another information leak. | Jul 05 14:11 |
| ThistleWeb | figures released by both apple and microsoft have been filtered by the marketing department | Jul 05 14:11 |
| ThistleWeb | they need to keep people buying stuff | Jul 05 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Normal takes some form of court case to get the real numbers at one point of time out of MS or Apple | Jul 05 14:11 |
| ThistleWeb | while also sound "reasonably" accurate in security advice for their customers | Jul 05 14:12 |
| SpagCode | so guess and hearsay,, ok. | Jul 05 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Basically at least with open source you know how many. | Jul 05 14:12 |
| oiaohm | And can make selection on what software you should be using by the numbers of issues around them. | Jul 05 14:12 |
| ThistleWeb | they cant afford a free "hobbyist" OS to trump them on security, and expect peeps to keep coughing up $100's on their stuff | Jul 05 14:13 |
| oiaohm | And what the issues are. | Jul 05 14:13 |
| oiaohm | MS also invented the art of turning a bug into a feature. | Jul 05 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | not only that, but with FOSS you have multiple layers of peeps looking at stuff and fixing it | Jul 05 14:13 |
| ThistleWeb | a bug in firefox could be spotted by the mozilla devs, or a dev for one of the distros | Jul 05 14:14 |
| SpagCode | Installer doesn't recognise SATA disks as primary. " | Jul 05 14:14 |
| SpagCode | and yet you still have problems like that and worse. | Jul 05 14:14 |
| ThistleWeb | it gets patched, the patch sent upstream, and it gets spread around the disrtos as well as the core firefox product itself | Jul 05 14:14 |
| oiaohm | So you have to install a bios update SpagCode | Jul 05 14:14 |
| oiaohm | To install windows. | Jul 05 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes. | Jul 05 14:14 |
| oiaohm | That is one of the best of turning a bug into a feature. | Jul 05 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Opps we got processing of ACPI tables wrong. | Jul 05 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Sell OS as requiring a BIOS update. | Jul 05 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Yes its happened many times with MS SpagCode | Jul 05 14:15 |
| ThistleWeb | a lot of M$ problems also stem from continually moving the goalpoasts to avoid any interoperability with non-Windows OS's and keep users locked in | Jul 05 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Poor documentation as well. | Jul 05 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | keep changing .doc with each new office | Jul 05 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Samba case in the EU. | Jul 05 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | but it's still all .doc | Jul 05 14:16 |
| oiaohm | It was sad. | Jul 05 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Jul 05 14:16 |
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| oiaohm | MS handed over all there networking documentation. | Jul 05 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Turned out basically none of it worked. | Jul 05 14:16 |
| ThistleWeb | as soon as a project gets close to being interoperable, M$ need to move the goalposts and introduce new bugs in the process | Jul 05 14:17 |
| oiaohm | That was not MS moving the goalpost. | Jul 05 14:17 |
| oiaohm | It turned out MS has given money to samba to expand there test case system. | Jul 05 14:17 |
| ThistleWeb | sorry, we were on 2 different projects there | Jul 05 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Reason MS networking did not even have a test system. | Jul 05 14:18 |
| SpagCode | Thats usually called progress, as something gains more function and features that product changes. | Jul 05 14:18 |
| oiaohm | To prevent bugs sneeking it. | Jul 05 14:18 |
| SpagCode | and there are always technology leaders, and followers. | Jul 05 14:18 |
| oiaohm | So that two different versions of windows can talk to each other over a network is pot luck SpagCode | Jul 05 14:18 |
| ThistleWeb | documents created by one version of office need to be converted in another, from .doc to .doc | Jul 05 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Also thinking networking code is one of your largest exposed areas. | Jul 05 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Its where you should have the most testcasing. | Jul 05 14:19 |
| oiaohm | MS Quality controls have been really sad. | Jul 05 14:20 |
| SpagCode | so what, and different versions of windows can and do easily talk to each other on a network, again as you well know. | Jul 05 14:20 |
| SpagCode | as has FOSS's QA as well, | Jul 05 14:20 |
| oiaohm | 2000 and XP have many cases where 1 or the other will crash if you use particular sections of there network stack. | Jul 05 14:20 |
| oiaohm | XP and Vista have the same. | Jul 05 14:20 |
| ThistleWeb | ahh, the whole leaders debate huh? from a company who inovates nothing, they BUY all their stuff, repackage it, cludge it up so it's M$ only then put it out | Jul 05 14:20 |
| oiaohm | There OS's are basically incompadible with each other. | Jul 05 14:21 |
| ThistleWeb | they just caught up with FF2 or Opera 8 in IE8, while FF3.5 was just released, and Opera 10 is on the way | Jul 05 14:21 |
| SpagCode | like FOSS did with Unix, to get Linux OK, :) | Jul 05 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Just by luck enough common code between them and that is what users use the most that users have not worked out how bad it is. | Jul 05 14:22 |
| oiaohm | Its like the good one recenty with XP. | Jul 05 14:22 |
| oiaohm | A invlaid 8.3 file name on a long filename file on fat causes XP to bluescreen. | Jul 05 14:23 |
| ThistleWeb | the TCPIP stack was a unix creation, it's implemented pure in Linux, it's been cludged by Micrsosoft as part of their usual vendor lockin bullshit | Jul 05 14:23 |
| oiaohm | To be correct not really invalid. | Jul 05 14:23 |
| oiaohm | A 8.3 file name filed with nulls. That should not be processed. | Jul 05 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Unix and Linux are quite network compadible with each other SpagCode | Jul 05 14:24 |
| oiaohm | NFS file shares on Unix work perfectly in Linux and vice viser. | Jul 05 14:25 |
| ThistleWeb | when you have engineers trying to find better, more efficient ways of doing something, and marketing peeps saying "noooooooooo, we need that to only work with OUR stuff" you're always gonna have issues | Jul 05 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Making network compadiblity with Windows is hard. | Jul 05 14:25 |
| ThistleWeb | in the FOSS world, it's ALL about interoperability, they understand they are PART of a solution, not the whole solution, and that it's in EVERYBODYS best interests if they work well together for the end users | Jul 05 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Making Linux, BSD, Unix's and OS X all play nice on a network is fairly straight forward. | Jul 05 14:26 |
| SpagCode | not built many MS networks have you ? :) its trivial, and its also faltless, between all OS's. | Jul 05 14:26 |
| ThistleWeb | SpagCode: lmao | Jul 05 14:26 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 05 14:26 |
| oiaohm | You really have not read the samba test cases. | Jul 05 14:27 |
| SpagCode | well by anyone who knows what they are doing, :) | Jul 05 14:27 |
| oiaohm | It documents flaw after flaw and how to make different windows versions trigger them. | Jul 05 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Resulting in machine crashes. | Jul 05 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Only appears faultless. | Jul 05 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Because the common used sections are fine. | Jul 05 14:28 |
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| SpagCode | only appears, and works 100% of the time, is all users want or care about. | Jul 05 14:28 |
| oiaohm | There is a big difference between Only appears Faultless and is faltess. | Jul 05 14:28 |
| oiaohm | Does not work 100 percent of the time. | Jul 05 14:28 |
| oiaohm | It is about 99 percent. | Jul 05 14:29 |
| SpagCode | well it does, and most networks on the planet are MS windows based and mixed, | Jul 05 14:29 |
| oiaohm | It does not do in large super computers. | Jul 05 14:30 |
| oiaohm | That 1 percent would cause a lot of down time. | Jul 05 14:30 |
| SpagCode | sounds like a bit of goalpost moving from you now. | Jul 05 14:30 |
| oiaohm | large networks also upgrade all there windows machines at once to the same version. | Jul 05 14:31 |
| oiaohm | To avoid the glitches too. | Jul 05 14:31 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, and pay out a hefty fee for the priv | Jul 05 14:31 |
| ThistleWeb | in another round of licences | Jul 05 14:31 |
| ThistleWeb | which in this ecconomy could easily mean some peeps being laid off to pay for new Windows licences | Jul 05 14:32 |
| SpagCode | no for upgrades you dont | Jul 05 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Do you know the man power that sucks up SpagCode | Jul 05 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Its not the licence cost alone here. | Jul 05 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Gradual migrations do have lower over all costs. | Jul 05 14:33 |
| oiaohm | If you can do them and depend on everything staying working. | Jul 05 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Even if the licence cost does not change at all. | Jul 05 14:33 |
| ThistleWeb | also there's an honesty in it, like having to buy Vista licences to run XP, so Microsoft can add your "vista love" to the tally | Jul 05 14:34 |
| ThistleWeb | after all, like they keep telling us, everyone loves vista | Jul 05 14:35 |
| ThistleWeb | apparently | Jul 05 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Lot business in the current time could be forced to fire staff to upgrade to Windows 7 | Jul 05 14:35 |
| oiaohm | If its network intergration is not perfect. | Jul 05 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Big issue with updating everythign at once. The normal business system admins have to normally employ out side help. | Jul 05 14:36 |
| ThistleWeb | which adds to the TOC | Jul 05 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Gradual migration the normal system admin can do it. | Jul 05 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Gradual migrations are used in supers as well so the system can remain processing. | Jul 05 14:37 |
| SpagCode | normal businesses already use outside help for thier IT, unless they are big enough to have their IT department. | Jul 05 14:37 |
| SpagCode | Or big enough to have their own IT company. | Jul 05 14:37 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I should not feel like this after a sober night of not drinking and going to bed and sleep at reasonable times. | Jul 05 14:38 | |
| oiaohm | How many IT staff does it take to migrate a 20 000 machine Linux supper to a new version SpagCode | Jul 05 14:38 |
| oiaohm | The answer is 1. | Jul 05 14:38 |
| SpagCode | Iknow that, so what ? | Jul 05 14:39 |
| oiaohm | So you say a normal business cannot afford 1 staff member with IT skills. | Jul 05 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Because that is what the total staff required to do a gradual migration is. | Jul 05 14:40 |
| SpagCode | small business generally dont have a full time IT guy, its usually outsourced, thats 10 to mabey 30 or so employees. | Jul 05 14:40 |
| SpagCode | most businesses focus on their core business and outsource most other functions, like insurance, book keeping, IT, security, delivery and so on. | Jul 05 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Next question for the Linux migration to new version does the IT officer even have to be in the same building. | Jul 05 14:41 |
| oiaohm | As the machines being updated. | Jul 05 14:41 |
| SpagCode | once again I feel you've lived quite a sheltered life. | Jul 05 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Answer no they don't. | Jul 05 14:41 |
| oiaohm | So update outsourced for small business there is a good chance the IT office would not even have to come onto site. | Jul 05 14:42 |
| oiaohm | No matter what the windows update system is costing. | Jul 05 14:42 |
| oiaohm | No a single business not effected. | Jul 05 14:43 |
| SpagCode | I would really love to want to care, but no one does, most small business dont upgrade all at once, its usually top down or when equipment is replaced. | Jul 05 14:43 |
| SpagCode | Nor is cost even a consideration, its a very small percentage of their normal running costs and even a small percentage of the cost of the computer system. | Jul 05 14:43 |
| ThistleWeb | when your looking at your books to find ways to cut costs and keep peeps employed, you care | Jul 05 14:43 |
| SpagCode | and probably over time much less than the cost of the electricity and internet it connects too. | Jul 05 14:44 |
| oiaohm | And it the small businesses who suffer the most with the bugs | Jul 05 14:44 |
| ThistleWeb | in a recession cost is the number one priority | Jul 05 14:44 |
| ThistleWeb | saving a little here and there can mean the difference between staying in business or not | Jul 05 14:44 |
| ThistleWeb | or having to let staff go or not | Jul 05 14:45 |
| ThistleWeb | the margins get tighter | Jul 05 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Software is the largest cost of a computer SpagCode | Jul 05 14:45 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, when an Ultimate edition of an OS (without any additional software costs) is like $300 on top of the hardware, you have to wonder | Jul 05 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Business are also looking at ways to reduce the power usage of there clients. | Jul 05 14:46 |
| wallclimber | SpagCode is actually "Mutex", who keeps coming back under different names since Roy banned him. | Jul 05 14:46 |
| ThistleWeb | then you have your office costs of a few hundred dollars | Jul 05 14:47 |
| ThistleWeb | that's for EVERY desktop | Jul 05 14:47 |
| ThistleWeb | you have 100 pc, sthat's 100x that price | Jul 05 14:47 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode So far you have not put up one arugment that does not have holes big enough to push the earth through. | Jul 05 14:48 |
| ThistleWeb | all to get you to where you'd be with a free Linux distro install | Jul 05 14:48 |
| ThistleWeb | the higher number of PCs you need to use, the more that cost increases | Jul 05 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Jul 05 14:49 |
| ThistleWeb | in software alone, the hardware will cost the same regardless of OS | Jul 05 14:49 |
| oiaohm | MS volume disconts. | Jul 05 14:49 |
| ThistleWeb | yes, volume licences, I know | Jul 05 14:49 |
| oiaohm | There are particular poitns where it flatlines. | Jul 05 14:49 |
| oiaohm | Another 1000 licences here or there make no difference to cost due to MS discounts. | Jul 05 14:50 |
| ThistleWeb | the point is that you need to pay a fee for each PC to run that software | Jul 05 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Another place small businesses miss out. | Jul 05 14:50 |
| ThistleWeb | not to mention all the hassle with serial numbers etc | Jul 05 14:50 |
| ThistleWeb | regestration | Jul 05 14:51 |
| ThistleWeb | authentication | Jul 05 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Basically small businesses are getting kicked in teeth over and over again by MS. | Jul 05 14:51 |
| oiaohm | And its part of the reason why they cannot compete with big business fairly. | Jul 05 14:51 |
| ThistleWeb | potential DRM issues from the software phoning home and telling you it's not gonna install..........all because you replaced a failed HD and it thinks it;s a new pc | Jul 05 14:51 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: do you have any other lines of agruements that you think have a sporting chance of not being destroyed due to defective logic. | Jul 05 14:52 |
| ThistleWeb | they keep getting told "you need Word, Excel etc to be compatible with all your partners" | Jul 05 14:52 |
| ThistleWeb | basicly you need to be part of the gang to be taken seriously, and that costs a lotta money | Jul 05 14:53 |
| ThistleWeb | "you need to use Windows and IE to view this website" | Jul 05 14:54 |
| SpagCode | oimohm ofcourse your dead right, and thats exactly why GNU/Linux is doing so well in the computer world, and on the desktop, thats why its the defacto industry standard !!, oh wait. | Jul 05 14:54 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Jul 05 14:54 |
| ThistleWeb | lol | Jul 05 14:55 |
| oiaohm | GNU Linux had no interest at all in the desktop market for the first 10 years of its life. | Jul 05 14:55 |
| ThistleWeb | the word "defacto" was interesting there, while FOSS use real standards, Microsoft use defacto ones | Jul 05 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Then found out that the design of desktop interfaces from the UNIX world did not work at all. | Jul 05 14:55 |
| ThistleWeb | they like to try and define what proprietary patented standards people can use, and have to pay them for, not to mention reverse engineering | Jul 05 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Due to major defects in X11 implementation. | Jul 05 14:56 |
| wallclimber | Mutex/SpagCode will just run the conversation in endless circles... | Jul 05 14:56 |
| oiaohm | So Linux having any market share is a mircale and is another sign that MS suxs. | Jul 05 14:56 |
| ThistleWeb | wallclimber: I got that idea a while back, I'm running out of interest in responding | Jul 05 14:56 |
| oiaohm | Also thinking X11 was always known as the most bloated memory usaging envorment for doing desktops. | Jul 05 14:57 |
| SpagCode | a standard is what everyone mostly use, namely a defacto standard, but defacto can be ratified officially or not or new standards based on that can be developed. | Jul 05 14:57 |
| oiaohm | Until vista took its crown. | Jul 05 14:57 |
| SpagCode | but they dont have to be used, you can use it or not or use another standard. depending on your target market | Jul 05 14:57 |
| wallclimber | I always find the conversations interesting and informative, because the trolls are generally trounced | Jul 05 14:57 |
| oiaohm | Defecto standards exist due to the simple lack of competition. | Jul 05 14:57 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, they proved that they can "rattify" standards that nobody accepts woth OOXML | Jul 05 14:58 |
| wallclimber | but it does become tedious after a while | Jul 05 14:58 |
| oiaohm | And Linux was not competing. | Jul 05 14:58 |
| ThistleWeb | all it takes is a company willing to corrupt | Jul 05 14:58 |
| oiaohm | Unix world had no interesting. | Jul 05 14:58 |
| oiaohm | Apple is about the only ones bothered competing with MS. | Jul 05 14:58 |
| oiaohm | But on over priced hardware. | Jul 05 14:58 |
| oiaohm | So MS being dominate is predictable. | Jul 05 14:58 |
| SpagCode | defacto standards usually occur from innovation, like VHS video's | Jul 05 14:59 |
| oiaohm | It really does not even mean anything. | Jul 05 14:59 |
| oiaohm | Unix was a defecto standard along before MS was. | Jul 05 14:59 |
| oiaohm | Defacto standards never last the test of time. | Jul 05 14:59 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact anything you say its a Defacto standard will not last. | Jul 05 15:00 |
| oiaohm | A true standard on the other hand can last centories. | Jul 05 15:01 |
| ThistleWeb | for me, a standrad that's well documented, cross platform and patent free will always stand higher than a patented, proprietary, undocumented one built to lock people into one single vendor | Jul 05 15:02 |
| oiaohm | VHS will be replaced by Harddrive recording and that will be replaced by something else. | Jul 05 15:02 |
| oiaohm | VHS was nothing more than a temp blip. | Jul 05 15:02 |
| SpagCode | you can argue about that all you like with yourself, Idont see what its got to do with anything. | Jul 05 15:02 |
| ThistleWeb | thats why the ISO (pre-OOXML) exists | Jul 05 15:02 |
| oiaohm | So you have run out of arguments SpagCode | Jul 05 15:02 |
| oiaohm | It takes a lot of work to make a desktop envorment good enough to do what users need and want to do. | Jul 05 15:03 |
| wallclimber | SpagCode/Mutex, you don't "see" because of those "innovative" troll-blinders you're wearing | Jul 05 15:04 |
| SpagCode | no i just give up and know you dont understand what a defacto standard is, | Jul 05 15:04 |
| oiaohm | The big question is where the good enough line is. | Jul 05 15:04 |
| oiaohm | I know a defecto standard in high and servers was Unix. | Jul 05 15:05 |
| oiaohm | These days the defacto Standard is Linux. | Jul 05 15:05 |
| ThistleWeb | it's interesting to see Microsoft are so sure of being the leaders in any area that they have to hobble the competition with lawsuits etc and deny the customers choice so all they see is Microsoft | Jul 05 15:05 |
| oiaohm | And in another 15 years it could be something else SpagCode | Jul 05 15:05 |
| oiaohm | The desktop is no different. | Jul 05 15:05 |
| ThistleWeb | a defacto standard is something where the product has so much of the market share | Jul 05 15:05 |
| oiaohm | Being a defacto standard does not make something last. | Jul 05 15:06 |
| ThistleWeb | it wasn't agreed on by anyone, it's by value of market share | Jul 05 15:06 |
| SpagCode | "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" | Jul 05 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Exactly what does being a defecto standard have on long term future. | Jul 05 15:06 |
| ThistleWeb | you could say the defacto standard fpr servers is unix / linux | Jul 05 15:07 |
| ThistleWeb | the differnce is that unix / linux follows REAL standards too | Jul 05 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Only one thing defecto standard in existance. | Jul 05 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Nothing better has turned up yet. | Jul 05 15:07 |
| SpagCode | about as much as a approved standard from a standards body, | Jul 05 15:07 |
| SpagCode | very little | Jul 05 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Real standards maintain something important. | Jul 05 15:08 |
| ThistleWeb | well, Microsoft proved that the ISO can be bought | Jul 05 15:08 |
| ThistleWeb | by buying them | Jul 05 15:08 |
| oiaohm | Compadiblity in the future. | Jul 05 15:08 |
| oiaohm | due to stable way of doing that feature. | Jul 05 15:08 |
| ThistleWeb | but that aside, ISO standards are agreed cross platform for everyone to work with | Jul 05 15:08 |
| oiaohm | TCP/IP is a really old standard. | Jul 05 15:08 |
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| SpagCode | yes, just like the centronics standard does right :D | Jul 05 15:09 |
| ThistleWeb | not one vendor shoving it down peeps throats | Jul 05 15:09 |
| oiaohm | You can still get interfaces for that SpagCode | Jul 05 15:09 |
| ThistleWeb | getting the stamp of approval to take to their corporate and govt customers, and have no intention of implementing it | Jul 05 15:09 |
| SpagCode | and thats a defacto standard too !! | Jul 05 15:10 |
| oiaohm | No centronics was a offical standard. | Jul 05 15:10 |
| ThistleWeb | all to avoid them moving to a proper standard, in other words it's a swindle | Jul 05 15:10 |
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| oiaohm | All hardware interfaces use by many companies are done as offical standards to avoid incompaiblity issues. | Jul 05 15:11 |
| oiaohm | So leading to long term compadiblity. | Jul 05 15:11 |
| SpagCode | what about s100 bus or ISA buss for that matter, or 5 and quarter double density floppies. ? | Jul 05 15:11 |
| oiaohm | you still use s100 and ISA buses in some hardware today. | Jul 05 15:11 |
| SpagCode | or Baudo | Jul 05 15:11 |
| SpagCode | or Murry code standard ? | Jul 05 15:12 |
| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code Still used | Jul 05 15:13 |
| SpagCode | and they started as defacto standards, | Jul 05 15:13 |
| oiaohm | In some ham radio circles | Jul 05 15:13 |
| SpagCode | I know about 5-bit baudot code, | Jul 05 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Some of those old well documented standards are also fun to make cracking encryption harder. | Jul 05 15:15 |
| SpagCode | yes, that is true | Jul 05 15:16 |
| oiaohm | 5 1/2 floppy disappearing due to the fact the design is not standing up to the test of time. | Jul 05 15:16 |
| SpagCode | in fact the study of the teleprinter and puncher technology that used teh punched tape and muray baaudot code is a great lesson is mechanical computer systems. | Jul 05 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Not all true standards last. | Jul 05 15:17 |
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| SpagCode | each sections is an analogue of a section of a digital computer. | Jul 05 15:17 |
| oiaohm | But being a true standard gives something a chance of a secound life. | Jul 05 15:17 |
| oiaohm | And come back in a different form. | Jul 05 15:17 |
| SpagCode | ofcourse many standards become obsolete | Jul 05 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Where just being defacto it can just over time disappear into nothing ness. | Jul 05 15:18 |
| oiaohm | Layout of sectors on floppies did not change when 5 1/2 become 3 1/4 | Jul 05 15:19 |
| oiaohm | Even from the floppies before 5 1/2 had the same kind of layout. | Jul 05 15:19 |
| SpagCode | as can normal standards, they can and do fall into disuse, and are eventually forgotten. | Jul 05 15:19 |
| oiaohm | Defacto standard can be forgoten faster. | Jul 05 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Remember zip disks. | Jul 05 15:20 |
| oiaohm | They were a defacto standard in backups for a while. | Jul 05 15:21 |
| oiaohm | What is left in current day tech of Zip disks. | Jul 05 15:21 |
| oiaohm | A true standard normally stays around in some form. | Jul 05 15:22 |
| SpagCode | they are stil in quite common usage, | Jul 05 15:22 |
| oiaohm | Like floppies are going to be with us for a while hidding on boot cdrom. | Jul 05 15:22 |
| ThistleWeb | a true standard will be properly documented for peeps to use and implement it as long as they want to | Jul 05 15:24 |
| oiaohm | Where I am they are not used at all any more SpagCode | Jul 05 15:25 |
| oiaohm | Ordering them is basically impossiable. | Jul 05 15:25 |
| oiaohm | DVD killed them larger storage cheaper drive and more accessable. There is no documentation for anyone to clone the zip drives. | Jul 05 15:27 |
| oiaohm | So the zip drives are over priced and are dieing out. | Jul 05 15:27 |
| oiaohm | Defecto standard status is not going to save zip drives from going the way of the dodo. | Jul 05 15:28 |
| ThistleWeb | one of the up's and downs of FOSS projects is that they exist as long as someone is willing to maintain them, so it's impossible for any vendor to kill it to force peeps to buy a new product, but it can be a precarious existence for small projects. On the other hand it's all open, so anyone can pick up the batton at any time and bring it back to life | Jul 05 15:28 |
| oiaohm | As long as the project has not disappeared from access. | Jul 05 15:28 |
| ThistleWeb | true | Jul 05 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Percentage of FOSS projects disappear for ever. | Jul 05 15:28 |
| ThistleWeb | on that note, I've aksed a few podcasts to appeal for help for Basket | Jul 05 15:29 |
| oiaohm | Basket is in the KDE world. | Jul 05 15:30 |
| ThistleWeb | which is another reason companies like Microsoft will NEVER open source their stuff | Jul 05 15:30 |
| oiaohm | They do maintain long term stores. | Jul 05 15:30 |
| ThistleWeb | if XP was FOSS, they'd have a hellava harder time trying to force peeps to hand over cash for vista | Jul 05 15:30 |
| oiaohm | Sections of the FOSS world are more protected from disapearing. | Jul 05 15:30 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, some FOSS are better protected than others, basket is not bad there, being part of a much larger KDE family | Jul 05 15:31 |
| oiaohm | MS throws around defecto standard so much as the reason why they cannot die its so fun. | Jul 05 15:31 |
| oiaohm | No company is protected from destruction. | Jul 05 15:31 |
| oiaohm | Even FOSS projects are not above destruction from time to time. | Jul 05 15:32 |
| ThistleWeb | the whole "while stocks last" angle is a joke too, with Windows you're buying a CD (or a preinstalled system) and a peice of paper with a generated number on it | Jul 05 15:32 |
| oiaohm | XP when it ends of Life will be interesting. | Jul 05 15:33 |
| ThistleWeb | "new stock" is a new generated number | Jul 05 15:33 |
| ThistleWeb | thats it | Jul 05 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Will MS just turn off activation and forget about it. | Jul 05 15:33 |
| ThistleWeb | the current EOL date will be extended further | Jul 05 15:33 |
| oiaohm | All MS products have had fake hardware limits built in to make sure they end of life. | Jul 05 15:34 |
| oiaohm | End of usable life. | Jul 05 15:34 |
| ThistleWeb | specially if the reports of it "requiring the same hardware as vista" are close to being true | Jul 05 15:34 |
| ThistleWeb | they'll need to for netbooks | Jul 05 15:34 |
| oiaohm | Netbooks caught MS. | Jul 05 15:34 |
| oiaohm | They are basically 8 year old hardware. | Jul 05 15:34 |
| oiaohm | Repackaged. | Jul 05 15:35 |
| ThistleWeb | when you're OS is all binary blobs, you're reliant on companies making compatible binary blobs, so when third parties stop making drivers for XP, it forces peeps to cough up | Jul 05 15:35 |
| ThistleWeb | even if you do have access to the code making the blobs, you dont have the rights to redistribute to keep it alive | Jul 05 15:36 |
| ThistleWeb | thats the poiint of proprietary software, they control the kill switch | Jul 05 15:37 |
| ThistleWeb | and use it to force people to pay them more money | Jul 05 15:37 |
| SpagCode | I have not had to upgrade my hardware for the past 9 years apart from hardware failures, (1 mobo and 1 PS) but ive updraded my software 2 times from xp | Jul 05 15:37 |
| oiaohm | Exactly XP works pefectly well on 9 year old hardware. | Jul 05 15:38 |
| oiaohm | Vista and Windows 7 no so much. | Jul 05 15:38 |
| oiaohm | Even Linux's are starting to work well on 9 year old hardware. | Jul 05 15:38 |
| ThistleWeb | windows has been designed to sell new hardware | Jul 05 15:38 |
| ThistleWeb | it always has, only vista went out of control | Jul 05 15:38 |
| ThistleWeb | and got the backlash | Jul 05 15:38 |
| oiaohm | The hardware cycle snaped with netbooks. | Jul 05 15:38 |
| ThistleWeb | not to mention the recession hit at the same time, and netbooks arrived | Jul 05 15:39 |
| SpagCode | no the 2 upgrades I did was from xp to vista, and vista to win 7 no problems all hardware and software worked and transfered flawlessly | Jul 05 15:39 |
| oiaohm | How much ram SpagCode | Jul 05 15:39 |
| ThistleWeb | all of that just exaggerated how peeps rejected vista | Jul 05 15:39 |
| oiaohm | I guess you are not using 2000 general ram levels. | Jul 05 15:40 |
| SpagCode | 2gig on one and 3g on my old compac m2000 laptop. | Jul 05 15:40 |
| oiaohm | That is large than 2000 general ram levels. | Jul 05 15:40 |
| ThistleWeb | when you have so much of the market sewn up to the point that peeps dont know anything but your products and usually fork out for upgrades without thinking too much......and THEY reject your new OS, you have a REAL doozy on your hands | Jul 05 15:40 |
| SpagCode | yes, rejected Vista at 200 million sold and selling at the rate of 20 mill a month. | Jul 05 15:41 |
| oiaohm | Most of those numbers are spin. | Jul 05 15:41 |
| ThistleWeb | how many of those sales are actually running vista? | Jul 05 15:41 |
| ThistleWeb | most are downdrages | Jul 05 15:41 |
| SpagCode | most, | Jul 05 15:41 |
| ThistleWeb | or preinstalls where the customer has a choice of vixta, vista, vista, vista or vista, when all they came for was a new pc | Jul 05 15:41 |
| oiaohm | Even hp admited that all the XP machines they sold after Vista release were downgrades. | Jul 05 15:41 |
| SpagCode | if not all, I dont know a single person taking up a downgrade. | Jul 05 15:41 |
| oiaohm | SO a large ammount of that number is not even Vista. | Jul 05 15:42 |
| ThistleWeb | around 80% of windows sales come from OEM sales | Jul 05 15:42 |
| oiaohm | Main reason HP could get Vista licences cheeper than XP ones. | Jul 05 15:42 |
| ThistleWeb | where the customer has no choice | Jul 05 15:42 |
| SpagCode | even if its half and its far more its still far more than ubuntu's 10 mill or so in total, | Jul 05 15:42 |
| oiaohm | What is with you and thinking market share. | Jul 05 15:42 |
| oiaohm | Its not something that worries me at this stage. | Jul 05 15:43 |
| ThistleWeb | that'd be the same ubuntu that Microsoft bully or bribe OEMs not to sell | Jul 05 15:43 |
| ThistleWeb | same with partenrs | Jul 05 15:43 |
| oiaohm | That Linux has any market share with using a kernel that was not designed for desktop usage is a miricale. | Jul 05 15:43 |
| oiaohm | Like no real-time support to make audio and video system work smooth. | Jul 05 15:44 |
| ThistleWeb | "you can sell ubuntu machines, but only on a couple of models, and tuck them away somewhere on the website, make sure that all the default options are windows, and that you recomend windows, or you'll be sorry" | Jul 05 15:44 |
| oiaohm | No kernel mode switching so in case of kernel problems the machine just frease solid. | Jul 05 15:44 |
| oiaohm | Giving user no message. | Jul 05 15:44 |
| oiaohm | This is a pure desktop user abusive interface. | Jul 05 15:44 |
| ThistleWeb | make customers work to find them, and limit them to certain regions | Jul 05 15:45 |
| oiaohm | Then 10 million copies of that sold SpagCode? | Jul 05 15:45 |
| oiaohm | What does that really say. | Jul 05 15:45 |
| oiaohm | There are 10 million suxers out there. | Jul 05 15:45 |
| ThistleWeb | oh, yeah, and don't market the fact that you sell linux, only market windows | Jul 05 15:45 |
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| ThistleWeb | given that type of abuse, it's a wonder they sell as amany as they do | Jul 05 15:45 |
| ThistleWeb | this is not a product selling side by side on popularity | Jul 05 15:46 |
| ThistleWeb | competing on merit | Jul 05 15:46 |
| ThistleWeb | Microsoft like to claim they are responding to their customers, and giving them what they want. They want XP, they are told "you can have Vista" | Jul 05 15:47 |
| ThistleWeb | they like to claim people are choocing to buy Windows, when they make sure that it's the only option they see | Jul 05 15:47 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: is not the Linux kernel abuse to desktop users by its current design. | Jul 05 15:47 |
| oiaohm | That design is changing make it more desktop friendly. | Jul 05 15:48 |
| oiaohm | What is the windows Blue screen of death. | Jul 05 15:48 |
| ThistleWeb | peeps buy a new PC, they dont buy a new windows.....well they do, but since it's included in the price they dont know that | Jul 05 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Kernel level mode switching so you are not left hanging. | Jul 05 15:48 |
| oiaohm | And so debuging information can be extracted from crash defects. | Jul 05 15:48 |
| oiaohm | Simple lack of kernel mode switch is a sign a kernel is not built for desktop. | Jul 05 15:49 |
| oiaohm | About the only thing more abuse as a desktop OS than Linux was MS dos that MS managed to sell some how. | Jul 05 15:50 |
| oiaohm | It was able to be sold on the grounds that MS dos was cheep. | Jul 05 15:51 |
| ThistleWeb | I can see why some vendors are receptive to the M$ bullies though, apart from kickbacks. With Windows they can sell all sorts of addons to make it usefull and (reasoanbly) secure, like Office, anti-virus etc not to mention the fact that they will get repair jobs when it goes fubar, and eventually the customer will be back to buy a new PC when it's dead, not knowing a re-install would fix it | Jul 05 15:52 |
| ThistleWeb | if vendors switched to linux, they dont need all that anti-malware stuff, and all the apps most peeps need are either preinstalled or in the repos | Jul 05 15:52 |
| oiaohm | Good part is the next wave of vendors will be displaced from the phone market. | Jul 05 15:53 |
| ThistleWeb | not to mention it won't need repaired so much, nor slow to a crawl over time to the point of buying a new pc | Jul 05 15:53 |
| oiaohm | So have no liking for MS at all. | Jul 05 15:53 |
| ThistleWeb | so it's actually in their interests to sell the customer on a flawed product | Jul 05 15:53 |
| oiaohm | SpagCode: don't both using the Ubuntu market share again its a pointless argument for the simple fact that Linux should not have the market share it does. | Jul 05 15:54 |
| ThistleWeb | if Linux wasn't so good, Microsoft wouldn't be targetting it so much | Jul 05 15:55 |
| oiaohm | Linux is a threat. | Jul 05 15:55 |
| oiaohm | Its not good yet. | Jul 05 15:55 |
| ThistleWeb | if it was as bad as they make out, they'd ignore it | Jul 05 15:55 |
| oiaohm | MS need to make linux get a bad name before it turns good. | Jul 05 15:55 |
| oiaohm | MS knows the clock is ticking. | Jul 05 15:56 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, they're being asailed on all fronts | Jul 05 15:56 |
| ThistleWeb | and winning none of them | Jul 05 15:56 |
| oiaohm | Particular list of kernel features will make lot of desktop defects disappear for good from Linux. | Jul 05 15:56 |
| oiaohm | One of the most intresting is the addtion of cuse that will allow closed source drivers to be released for Linux for most drivers . | Jul 05 15:57 |
| oiaohm | Without needing to be tied to any particular kernel version. | Jul 05 15:57 |
| ThistleWeb | I do find it cool that most devices just work when plugged into Linux, where Windows has to go find and install the driver, or ask for the CD that came with it | Jul 05 15:58 |
| oiaohm | Start of the rise of a kernel ready for desktop. Including means to have third party drivers. | Jul 05 15:58 |
| ThistleWeb | and not having to reboot to apply updates | Jul 05 15:58 |
| oiaohm | Linux guys are even upset about have to reboot to update kernel. | Jul 05 15:59 |
| ThistleWeb | ya take these things for granted until you have to use a Windows pc | Jul 05 15:59 |
| oiaohm | And are trying to have a solution to prevent even that. | Jul 05 15:59 |
| oiaohm | When Linux truly is desktop ready at kernel level MS will have a problem. | Jul 05 15:59 |
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| ThistleWeb | M$ rely on lawyers and lobbyists to ensure they dont have to compete on any technical level | Jul 05 16:00 |
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| oiaohm | MS has lost control of the hardware market. | Jul 05 16:01 |
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| oiaohm | Lot of arm and mips device makers will wait for the kernel to complete. | Jul 05 16:01 |
| oiaohm | For the simple reason they have to. | Jul 05 16:01 |
| oiaohm | Lack of good third party opengl drivers on those processor types. | Jul 05 16:01 |
| oiaohm | So the open source ones have to work. | Jul 05 16:02 |
| oiaohm | The clock is ticking. about 6 to 9 months left. | Jul 05 16:02 |
| oiaohm | Thinking all the head start MS has had. Linux should not even be able to catch them. | Jul 05 16:03 |
| ThistleWeb | exactly | Jul 05 16:03 |
| oiaohm | Problem is once the Linux guys catch they will not be waiting around for MS to get there act in order. | Jul 05 16:04 |
| ThistleWeb | they had the market in their hand, and through greed, stagnation, incompetence and corruption are losing it | Jul 05 16:04 |
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| ThistleWeb | they are company of the 90's who have had a longer run than they deserved through momentum | Jul 05 16:05 |
| ThistleWeb | karma is catching up with them though | Jul 05 16:06 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Jul 05 16:06 |
| oiaohm | karma is not a factor when you have no real competition. | Jul 05 16:06 |
| oiaohm | Karma will have larger and larger effects closer Linux gets to them. | Jul 05 16:06 |
| ThistleWeb | they've brought a lot of stuff on themselves | Jul 05 16:07 |
| oiaohm | What would not be a problem if they were the only item in town. | Jul 05 16:07 |
| wallclimber | oiaohm, what do you define as "real competition"? | Jul 05 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Something that is forcing them on price and provides good enough usablity and does not abuse users by using it. | Jul 05 16:08 |
| oiaohm | It does not have to be Linux either. | Jul 05 16:09 |
| oiaohm | Current Linux kernel is user abusive. | Jul 05 16:09 |
| wallclimber | if it doesn't have to be linux, does it still need to be free and open? | Jul 05 16:09 |
| oiaohm | No. | Jul 05 16:09 |
| oiaohm | With true competition karma is important no matter the form. | Jul 05 16:10 |
| wallclimber | it's funny, I've always felt abused when i used to use windows, but haven't felt that way since | Jul 05 16:10 |
| wallclimber | leaving windows behind | Jul 05 16:10 |
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| wallclimber | how am i being abused? not trying to be combative, just curious | Jul 05 16:11 |
| wallclimber | oh well...just asking...no need to answer. | Jul 05 16:13 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi schestowitz | Jul 05 16:37 |
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| zer0c00l | i found it interesting :Bing is King :D http://www.linuxforu.com/views/bing-is-king/ | Jul 05 16:53 |
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| News of the obvious variety. GWB had no economic clue http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124680904844296383.html | Jul 05 17:24 | |
| The US is out of money, http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN0521839620090705 | Jul 05 17:24 | |
| trmanco | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/05/if-it-sounds-too-good-to-be-true/ | Jul 05 17:24 |
| and the dollar is not what it used to be, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aR7yfqUwTb4M | Jul 05 17:24 | |
| Iran's move from the dollar for oil trade was very damaging to the dollar. | Jul 05 17:25 | |
| *zer0c00l (n=zer0c00l@117.199.139.163) has left #boycottnovell (" g2g") | Jul 05 17:27 | |
| *_Goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 05 17:28 | |
| wow, trmanco, that's some page. | Jul 05 17:28 | |
| I can imagine that a compiled version of an interpreted language might be about as fast or a little slower than any other compiled language, but never faster. | Jul 05 17:30 | |
| That kind of favorable technical incompetence is a M$ hallmark. I surprised to see Miguel parroting such fluff. | Jul 05 17:31 | |
| trmanco | :-) | Jul 05 17:32 |
| I'm sorry that people had to deal with visual studio and Windows to find out. Ick. | Jul 05 17:35 | |
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| thenixedreport | Hello everyone. | Jul 05 18:04 |
| thenixedreport | I have a question. | Jul 05 18:04 |
| thenixedreport | Let's say I wanted to share something via BitTorrent. | Jul 05 18:04 |
| thenixedreport | Legal content mind you. | Jul 05 18:04 |
| thenixedreport | But I want to do it in the most effective manner on my end. | Jul 05 18:04 |
| thenixedreport | Would having virtual machines via VirtualBox on the same physical machine be effective or no? | Jul 05 18:05 |
| _Goblin | eh? You will presumably be limited by your bandwidth though... | Jul 05 18:06 |
| _Goblin | I'm not sure in the worth in a small swarm of having 1 seeder compared to more, when they are all originating from the same IP.... | Jul 05 18:07 |
| _Goblin | I suppose it depends at the end of the day if your peers turn off or turn into seeders.. | Jul 05 18:08 |
| _Goblin | unless I've completely misunderstood what you were trying to say... | Jul 05 18:08 |
| _Goblin | have you thought about NG's? | Jul 05 18:08 |
| _Goblin | you could always use that "as well as"...might hurry along distribution. | Jul 05 18:09 |
| thenixedreport | What's an NG? | Jul 05 18:09 |
| _Goblin | newsgroup | Jul 05 18:09 |
| _Goblin | binaries | Jul 05 18:09 |
| thenixedreport | Ah. | Jul 05 18:10 |
| thenixedreport | Reason why I ask.... | Jul 05 18:10 |
| thenixedreport | I'm developing a business idea based on BitTorrent. | Jul 05 18:10 |
| thenixedreport | And sharing of legal content. | Jul 05 18:10 |
| _Goblin | isn't TPB already going in that direction? | Jul 05 18:10 |
| _Goblin | To be fair, I believe BT will die as soon as its no longer a viable medium for illegal downloads. | Jul 05 18:11 |
| _Goblin | whatever BT users tell you, its the "getting something for nothing" that makes it popular (IMO) | Jul 05 18:11 |
| _Goblin | very good for FOSS though (BT that is) | Jul 05 18:12 |
| _Goblin | I just cant see how the revenue can be made with BT since there will always be pirate trackers to lure wouldbe customers away. | Jul 05 18:13 |
| thenixedreport | Not necessarily. | Jul 05 18:13 |
| thenixedreport | My idea involves clients coming to me for bandwidth needs. | Jul 05 18:13 |
| thenixedreport | In other words, transporting information from one location to the next, especially if the two have wide distances between them. | Jul 05 18:14 |
| _Goblin | ah | Jul 05 18:14 |
| thenixedreport | I had the idea of making money off the technology way before the buyout story came out on TPB. | Jul 05 18:14 |
| thenixedreport | It would involve private clients. | Jul 05 18:14 |
| _Goblin | I think the better model would be the private anon tracker (based out of reach of the MPIAA) on a subscription basis. This would be where the money was...IMO | Jul 05 18:15 |
| thenixedreport | Tell me about it. | Jul 05 18:15 |
| thenixedreport | How would I set such a thing up? | Jul 05 18:15 |
| thenixedreport | (I'm also trying to keep it as simple as possible) | Jul 05 18:15 |
| _Goblin | maybe acting as a proxy between a tracker that exists now and the end user... | Jul 05 18:15 |
| _Goblin | to be honest this is not my area of expertise....I've written a few papers on piracy that were privately funded, but they tended to lean towards the legal implications not the technology. | Jul 05 18:16 |
| thenixedreport | Understood. | Jul 05 18:17 |
| _Goblin | A good place to find the experts would be torrentfreak.com | Jul 05 18:17 |
| thenixedreport | That's rightQ! | Jul 05 18:17 |
| thenixedreport | I forgot about that! | Jul 05 18:17 |
| _Goblin | and certainly a good idea of the "market" | Jul 05 18:17 |
| thenixedreport | Thanks so much. | Jul 05 18:17 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:17 |
| _Goblin | np | Jul 05 18:17 |
| _Goblin | if you manage to make it work, let us know! | Jul 05 18:17 |
| _Goblin | I'd be very interested. | Jul 05 18:18 |
| thenixedreport | Interested in hearing about, participating, or both? | Jul 05 18:19 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:19 |
| SpagCode | I suggest you use torrent as a conduit and as a part of a hosted private cloud, but as hard drives are large and network bandwidth cheap, you can have each user keep copies of each file, but at the same time seed all the files as torrent, Or at least update or changesets | Jul 05 18:21 |
| SpagCode | That way you get enhanced network speeds, and multiple backups, and the ability to work offline without the net if its goes down, | Jul 05 18:22 |
| SpagCode | You should take a look at the VMS file management system and its ability to span data over multiple systems and H/D, and to cluster by network connection by default. | Jul 05 18:23 |
| _Goblin | sorry AFK... | Jul 05 18:24 |
| SpagCode | its especially good for its versioning so could do the same with torrents, so you can regress to earlier "file" versions and torrent them all. | Jul 05 18:24 |
| _Goblin | Interested in hearing about...Although im anti-piracy, I still find the subject very interesting.. | Jul 05 18:25 |
| SpagCode | It would not be piracy, it would be the persons, or companies files and data. | Jul 05 18:26 |
| SpagCode | I can see the power of having every PC in the company being part of a high speed multi-seeding | Jul 05 18:28 |
| _Goblin | ah | Jul 05 18:28 |
| SpagCode | distributed and failsafe network | Jul 05 18:28 |
| _Goblin | sorry, I thought it was going down the route of the old PB. | Jul 05 18:28 |
| thenixedreport | No. | Jul 05 18:34 |
| thenixedreport | It's not. | Jul 05 18:35 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:35 |
| thenixedreport | Thanks SpagCode. | Jul 05 18:35 |
| thenixedreport | Your insights are interesting. | Jul 05 18:35 |
| SpagCode | its something I would be interested in, and would give great confidence in cloud and net technologies, and improve backups, versioning and archiving. | Jul 05 18:38 |
| thenixedreport | I figured I'd start out simple, then enhance as it went along. | Jul 05 18:39 |
| thenixedreport | First, I would need enough participants to pull this thing off. | Jul 05 18:39 |
| SpagCode | thats the best way, even on a 2 pc network | Jul 05 18:39 |
| SpagCode | all the tools are allready there, | Jul 05 18:40 |
| thenixedreport | If you don't mind my asking, where are you from? | Jul 05 18:40 |
| thenixedreport | And does your ISP have plenty of bandwidth? | Jul 05 18:40 |
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| SpagCode | im in australia, and i have high speed ADSL2, and a 25g monthly high speed limit that idles to 64kbps if I go over. Usage is an issue here. | Jul 05 18:41 |
| thenixedreport | I see. | Jul 05 18:42 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:42 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:42 |
| thenixedreport | It would be awesome if I could get this thing to go international! | Jul 05 18:43 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:43 |
| SpagCode | Kent brockman asked Lisa "how wide is the web" Lisa a. "World", Kent, "WOW". | Jul 05 18:45 |
| thenixedreport | Well. | Jul 05 18:45 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Jul 05 18:45 |
| thenixedreport | I'm about to head out for a bit. | Jul 05 18:45 |
| thenixedreport | So I'll see you all later. | Jul 05 18:45 |
| thenixedreport | I'll stay logged in though. | Jul 05 18:46 |
| SpagCode | Bill Gates to Homer Simpson " I did not get rich by writing lots of checques". | Jul 05 18:46 |
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| Omar87 | Hello everyone. | Jul 05 18:55 |
| Omar87 | Do you guys agree with me that if we leave the FOSS world for developers and geeks that they're gonna straight up ruin the entire concept of software freedom? | Jul 05 18:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] These Mono guys have no brains and no class. "Mono developer uses f-word to abuse RMS" http://www.itwire.com/content/view/26075/1090/ | Jul 05 18:58 | |
| Omar87 | Why? No offense but really, because these people only care about the code, and barely give a damn about the business and legal issues surrounding what they do. | Jul 05 18:59 |
| Omar87 | A developer has no problem to use all the proprietary technologies on earth in building a free open source program. And if you try to argue with him that this made his project totally exposed to lawsuits and and other stuff, he'll end up either ignoring you or making fun of you. | Jul 05 19:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] FTC cracking down on paid/bribed bloggers? - "The silence of the shills" http://tinyurl.com/p7lvwa #microsoft #windows #vista #xp #shill | Jul 05 19:13 | |
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| Omar87 | I really enjoyed this latest iTWire post. :) | Jul 05 19:35 |
| SpagCode | wouldnt it be "the taming of the shrills"?? | Jul 05 19:38 |
| _Goblin | sorry, what were you saying Omar...I was afk. | Jul 05 19:52 |
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| _Goblin | hi! | Jul 05 20:08 |
| _Hicham_ | Hi Goblin | Jul 05 20:09 |
| _Hicham_ | what distro are u on right now? | Jul 05 20:09 |
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| I did not enjoy that iTwire piece. The Sanjeev incident is a lot of ugly non free stuff. It is regrettable and forgettable. Sam is right in his condemnation but cruel in his methods. | Jul 05 20:24 | |
| Picking on people for their lack of mastery of a second language is cheap and personal. | Jul 05 20:25 | |
| _Goblin | sorry mitcham...afk again.. | Jul 05 20:25 |
| I do hope the FTC cracks down on shills | Jul 05 20:26 | |
| _Goblin | I am currently using Gentoo/NimbleX and I have my own flavor of Linux in alpha Deep Red. | Jul 05 20:26 |
| _Goblin | it would be good twitter... | Jul 05 20:26 |
| _Goblin | although the easier way to solve it would be to force Microsoft to disclose instead of the blogger. | Jul 05 20:26 |
| Well, yes. It is much worse for M$ to pay hundreds of bloggers than for each of them to do their small part. | Jul 05 20:27 | |
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| _Goblin | I think the FTC is facing an impossible task going after all of them, so I think it would be fairer to ask MS and any marketing company to do the disclosing of who has recieved what.... | Jul 05 20:28 |
| The crime is paying people to write under false pretenses. | Jul 05 20:29 | |
| They lie about their affiliations. | Jul 05 20:29 | |
| That would not happen if M$ did not make it so. | Jul 05 20:29 | |
| Done wrong, the FTC's efforts will end up harassing astroturf victims instead of the M$ criminals | Jul 05 20:31 | |
| I've been having problems loading wordpress. Have you seen what I thought about that? | Jul 05 20:32 | |
| _Goblin | What probs? | Jul 05 20:34 |
| They hang on loading. | Jul 05 20:34 | |
| _Goblin | oh... | Jul 05 20:34 |
| Konq hangs forever, never getting their correct number of images. | Jul 05 20:34 | |
| _Goblin | since Ive started using the Chrome Beta, Wordpress is twice as quick | Jul 05 20:34 |
| _Goblin | are you using new FF? | Jul 05 20:34 |
| Netsurf hangs forever, never getting 5/5 stylesheets. | Jul 05 20:34 | |
| No, I've got the version of IceWeasel that comes with Lenny. | Jul 05 20:35 | |
| It hangs too. | Jul 05 20:35 | |
| _Goblin | ah | Jul 05 20:35 |
| I tracked it down to edge.sphere.net | Jul 05 20:35 | |
| _Goblin | like I say, Ive had no issues of late... | Jul 05 20:35 |
| Washington Post, Newsweek, ZDNet and many other sites affiliated all do the same thing. | Jul 05 20:36 | |
| Netsurf, for example, is now consuming an incredible 65% of my CPU getting your wordpress site to load. | Jul 05 20:36 | |
| It completed it's last stylesheet in 184.3 seconds and has 0/7 objects loaded. | Jul 05 20:37 | |
| _Goblin | oh dear.. | Jul 05 20:37 |
| Konq and Iceweasel never load. It's some kind of very ugly java script. | Jul 05 20:37 | |
| _Goblin | lol...this is good: | Jul 05 20:38 |
| _Goblin | "IZEA has no restrictions on how bloggers express their genuine thoughts on an advertiser’s product" | Jul 05 20:38 |
| The latest changes that got your site only happened in the last couple of days. | Jul 05 20:38 | |
| _Goblin | strange | Jul 05 20:38 |
| It's not particular to my network connection. I got the same problems with FF on Solaris running at an out of state location. | Jul 05 20:39 | |
| Konq 4.2 and Iceweasel in testing have similar problems but not as bad. Iceweasel 3.0.9 is slow to losd and I have the fonts all messed up (my bad). Konq hangs. | Jul 05 20:45 | |
| ah, there's Konq. | Jul 05 20:46 | |
| It took forever. | Jul 05 20:46 | |
| But really, people should not be forced out of stable distributions just to browse the web. | Jul 05 20:46 | |
| Something stinks about it all. | Jul 05 20:47 | |
| ThistleWeb | have you checked behind the couch? usually the dog left something there that's the source of the stink | Jul 05 20:48 |
| ThistleWeb | either that or the soles of your shoes | Jul 05 20:54 |
| *ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 05 20:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] From botnet's to an alleged feature on FOSS. BBC Click.....Is this supposed to show that the our TV licence is value? | Jul 05 21:13 | |
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| trmanco | what is this? some kind of a joke? | Jul 05 21:56 |
| trmanco | "In the same way that Firefox is "a free implementation of Microsoft's Internet Explorer". Mono is an implementation of two published standards, primarily from Microsoft (plus a few others like HP). | Jul 05 21:56 |
| trmanco | " | Jul 05 21:56 |
| trmanco | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1204855 | Jul 05 21:57 |
| bad joke. | Jul 05 22:02 | |
| the nature of copyright is best demonstrated in exceptions to it like this, http://www.naoj.org/Information/Image/index.html | Jul 05 22:02 | |
| Copyright == "thou shalt not share" | Jul 05 22:04 | |
| Evolution. A person has decided that their data is worth saving but has not realized Windows is what loses their data http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/07/05/1729257/RAID-Trust-Issues-mdash-Windows-Or-a-Cheap-Controller | Jul 05 22:06 | |
| " I want any drive and its data to be as safe and portable as possible (that's the reason for choosing FAT32)" | Jul 05 22:06 | |
| ugh | Jul 05 22:06 | |
| The only OS that needs fat32 is windows | Jul 05 22:06 | |
| trmanco | yeah | Jul 05 22:14 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "A facebook of Ballmer? & KISS audition." http://tinyurl.com/q7qq36 #microsoft #windows #vista #xp #linux #foss | Jul 05 22:23 | |
| This is alarming, http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/25/exclusive_animal_rights_activist_jailed_at | Jul 05 22:44 | |
| -> In 2006, Andrew Stepanian was sentenced to three years in prison for violating a controversial law known as the Animal Enterprise Protection Act. Stepanian and six others were jailed for their role in a campaign to stop animal testing by the British scientific firm Huntingdon Life Science. They were convicted of using a website to “incite attacks” on those who did business with Huntingdon Life Science. Together, the group be | Jul 05 22:45 | |
| So, this guy go three years in jail for running a web site. | Jul 05 22:46 | |
| Part of that three years was a trip to a "little Guantanamo" | Jul 05 22:46 | |
| I'd say that the US has political prisoners and that they are tortured. | Jul 05 22:47 | |
| _Goblin | interesting post...although the UK (according to legislation) will still hang you for flying the Jolly Roger in Britains seas and waterways...its of no surprise. | Jul 05 22:50 |
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| thenixedreport | I have returned. | Jul 05 22:55 |
| thenixedreport | Yay. | Jul 05 22:55 |
| thenixedreport | Hey, _Goblin. | Jul 05 22:55 |
| thenixedreport | I found an answer to my VM/BT question. | Jul 05 22:55 |
| thenixedreport | It could be useful if I throttled my bandwidth on each VM. | Jul 05 22:55 |
| thenixedreport | :D | Jul 05 22:55 |
| _Goblin | ah. | Jul 05 22:56 |
| What kind of person is Andrew Stephanian? -> ANDREW STEPANIAN: I was doing Food Not Bombs, feeding the homeless once a week for about six years. It’s the same motivation that I had to do that every Sunday morning that brought me to question what was going on inside Huntingdon Life Sciences, the efficacy of testing on animals and the efficacy of the way we treat animals in this country. And it also brought me to New Orleans, Louis | Jul 05 22:56 | |
| My bad. Andrew did not even run the site. | Jul 05 22:57 | |
| -> Andrew’s case the evidence against him was essentially that he was associating with a website, didn’t operate the website. But beyond that, the FBI wiretaps that were admitted established Andrew’s attempts, repeated attempts, to reflect his decision not to violate the time, place and manner restrictions of the civil injunctions that were imposed on certain demonstrations. And the government argues that at one point when Mr | Jul 05 22:59 | |
| So, your encrypted messages are evidence of wrong doing when they can't be read. | Jul 05 23:00 | |
| _Goblin | I would presume on "Balance of probabilities" for statute defense. | Jul 05 23:05 |
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| *_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal") | Jul 05 23:20 | |
| Happy 4th of jully, http://www.democracynow.org/2009/6/25/exclusive_animal_rights_activist_jailed_at | Jul 05 23:32 | |
| http://slashdot.org/submission/1032909/3-Years-in-Jail-for-Web-Protest-and-Encrypted-Mail | Jul 05 23:32 | |
| How Hollywood continues to suck, http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-may-aug.html#05 July 2009 (How Hollywood systematically makes lousy movies) | Jul 05 23:37 | |
| "http://www.stallman.org/archives/2009-may-aug.html#05 July 2009 (How Hollywood systematically makes lousy movies)" | Jul 05 23:37 | |
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