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| Balrog_ | managers who don't care / have an agenda are a big problem in many places :( | Jul 07 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| trmanco | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/microsoft-applies-community-promise-to-ecma-334-and-335/ | Jul 07 00:02 |
| Balrog_ | CP != foss | Jul 07 00:02 |
| Balrog_ | "The CP requires that implementations conform to all of required parts of the mandatory portions of the specification." == not good | Jul 07 00:02 |
| Lns | making the community conform to your specs hinders creative development | Jul 07 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | yes | Jul 07 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | it also prevents partial internal implementations | Jul 07 00:04 |
| Lns | though they are being much more thoughtful than before, ... can't blame em for holding onto some things still. one can only hope it will get better over time | Jul 07 00:04 |
| Lns | this is a step in the right direction, at least | Jul 07 00:04 |
| cj | trmanco: in response to your question about winforms (etc.) | Jul 07 00:11 |
| cj | In the next few months we will be working towards splitting the jumbo Mono source code that includes ECMA + A lot more into two separate source code distributions. One will be ECMA, the other will contain our implementation of ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Winforms and others. | Jul 07 00:11 |
| trmanco | ah, finally | Jul 07 00:11 |
| cj | trmanco: that was from miggie's blog | Jul 07 00:11 |
| trmanco | who is miggie? | Jul 07 00:12 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Microsoft issues Mono community promise http://tinyurl.com/mgr6z8 | Jul 07 00:13 | |
| cj | trmanco: it's a nick name: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-06.html | Jul 07 00:15 |
| jose_X | microsoft is set to apply their "community promise" to ecma stds that define base mono. | Jul 07 00:15 |
| jose_X | http://port25.technet.com/archive/2009/07/06/the-ecma-c-and-cli-standards.aspx | Jul 07 00:15 |
| jose_X | >> I have some good news to announce: Microsoft will be applying the Community Promise to the ECMA 334 and ECMA 335 specs. | Jul 07 00:15 |
| trmanco | that's new | Jul 07 00:15 |
| jose_X | posted this afternoon | Jul 07 00:15 |
| trmanco | jose_X, we are talking currently talking about that | Jul 07 00:16 |
| trmanco | cj, I don't read his blog directly | Jul 07 00:16 |
| jose_X | ok | Jul 07 00:16 |
| trmanco | jose_X, http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/microsoft-applies-community-promise-to-ecma-334-and-335/ | Jul 07 00:17 |
| jose_X | >> Microsoft irrevocably promises not to assert any Microsoft Necessary Claims... to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications, and is compliant with all of the required parts of the mandatory provisions of that specification | Jul 07 00:17 |
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| jose_X | >> This is big news and a great sign. For one thing it shows that the intesive criticism mono has recieved is producing some positive effects. This is thanks to mono critics; not mono apologists. | Jul 07 00:17 |
| cj | jose_X: define 'apologists' | Jul 07 00:20 |
| jose_X | I was quoting | Jul 07 00:20 |
| cj | from whom? | Jul 07 00:20 |
| jose_X | but i think that is to people that would take the patent license issue lightly | Jul 07 00:20 |
| jose_X | see trmanco link above | Jul 07 00:21 |
| trmanco | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/miguel-on-the-community-promise-announcement/ | Jul 07 00:21 |
| cj | ah. I don't know who those people are... | Jul 07 00:21 |
| jose_X | >> Q: Why doesn’t the CP apply to things that are merely referenced in the specification? | Jul 07 00:22 |
| jose_X | A: It is a common practice that technology licenses focus on the specifics of what is detailed in the specifications and exclude what are frequently called “enabling technologies.” If we included patent claims to the enabling technology, then as an extreme example, it could be argued that one needs computer and operating system patents to implement almost any information technology specification. No such broad patent licenses t | Jul 07 00:22 |
| jose_X | o referenced technologies are ever given for specific industry standards. | Jul 07 00:22 |
| jose_X | You allow the kids to gnaw on the outside of the house, but you can't give away the whole house | Jul 07 00:22 |
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| jose_X | I'm also not sure if this has feet when it comes to patent trolls that buy up patents | Jul 07 00:23 |
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| jose_X | ie, if there is any protection from microsoft selling some core mono patents to proxies | Jul 07 00:24 |
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| jose_X | anyway, i'd like to hear what lawyers think about this situation and what is the likely situation surrounding mono | Jul 07 00:25 |
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| cj | jose_X: I've got a dialogue open with Daniel Ravicher and RMS about that. I'll post updates in my blog when I put the web server back online | Jul 07 00:27 |
| trmanco | cool | Jul 07 00:28 |
| jose_X | Don't get offended cj, but I usually don't keep track of specific sites/blogs. Linux Today and BN are two that I watch currently. | Jul 07 00:28 |
| jose_X | anyway, you were probably being polite to me but addressing everyone... ok | Jul 07 00:28 |
| jose_X | thanks | Jul 07 00:28 |
| cj | jose_X: oh, no offense taken. | Jul 07 00:29 |
| jose_X | :-) | Jul 07 00:30 |
| jose_X | I was so worried you would be offended by me ;-) | Jul 07 00:31 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Reading: "LinuxTracker .::. Index->Torrent->Details" (http://twitthis.com/t5ein7) | Jul 07 00:38 | |
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| Ng | I guess you already saw the Community Promise C#/CLI thing? | Jul 07 00:39 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi MinceR | Jul 07 01:04 |
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| jose_X | later | Jul 07 01:10 |
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| Not Good Enough -> "to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications" | Jul 07 01:14 | |
| If I can't modify the software so that it does what I want and share those modifications with my friends, it's not free software. | Jul 07 01:15 | |
| It should take the FSF all of three minutes to spot that problem. | Jul 07 01:16 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Been using (and seeding on Linuxtracker) wolvix-2.0.0-beta2 expect an update on my blog. Nice "punchy" distro. #linux #foss #xfce | Jul 07 01:18 | |
| From mono-nono -> "It doesn’t seem that the Community Promise will remove any worry at all about the parts of mono that implement .NET and are outside of the ECMA standards. This is a very serious question, because we have internal emails from court records that show Microsoft discussed how much of .NET to standardize, and to protect the rest with patents to prevent commoditization of .NET" | Jul 07 01:19 | |
| So, more BS from M$. | Jul 07 01:19 | |
| M$ has shown again and again they create traps for others. Their behavior is consistent from the amazingly never shown lines of SCO code to the TomTom settlement. M$ should never be trusted. | Jul 07 01:22 | |
| -> " Right now, unless I am missing something - I don’t think you can work up a strong argument against the standard parts." | Jul 07 01:23 | |
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| You're doing it wrong. A strong argument must be made for the "standard part" | Jul 07 01:24 | |
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| This argument has to be better than, "I spent a lot of my time on this," and "This photo application is cool." | Jul 07 01:25 | |
| There are many free alternatives to mono and M$ has been working to kill free software for the last 10 years. | Jul 07 01:25 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Wobbly windows....you don't notice it until you take it away....somehow I feel less in control of my DE without them. #linux | Jul 07 01:58 | |
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| _Hicham_ | hi neighborlee | Jul 07 02:45 |
| _Hicham_ | howdy? | Jul 07 02:45 |
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| neighborlee | hm | Jul 07 02:58 |
| neighborlee | o_) | Jul 07 02:58 |
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| cj | twitter: nobody will take you seriously if you keep saying "M$" | Jul 07 03:08 |
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| cj | you sound like a 14-year-old zealot. imho :) | Jul 07 03:09 |
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| cj | do you *really* think ms would have a case if they took someone to court for violating their patents at this point? | Jul 07 03:10 |
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| Will | schestowitz : you may have seen this already, but here: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-06.html | Jul 07 03:19 |
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| stephenjudkins | what's up with microsoft's "community promise"? | Jul 07 03:20 |
| Will | I don't know yet. I guess I'll care more when I find a mono app that I actually use. | Jul 07 03:20 |
| stephenjudkins | curious what people here think. | Jul 07 03:21 |
| Will | Roy will probably have an article up soon. I'm curious to hear his take on it. | Jul 07 03:24 |
| Will | I'm also curious to see how a "Covered Implementation" is defined. | Jul 07 03:25 |
| stephenjudkins | has anyone you guys know changed their minds because of this? | Jul 07 03:26 |
| ThistleWeb | apart from Banshee, Tomboy and FSpot that get all the headlines, another apparently popular mono app is gnome-do | Jul 07 03:26 |
| ThistleWeb | the others have non-mono alternates but I dunno if gnome-do is unique in it's functionality | Jul 07 03:27 |
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| stephenjudkins | thanks. | Jul 07 03:28 |
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| axord | Gnome-Do is not unique in that it's an example of a class of software | Jul 07 03:28 |
| ThistleWeb | I've never used it, so I maybe dont get exactly what it does | Jul 07 03:29 |
| neighborlee | and hardly 'must-do' as a app in linux..I can't imagine living without out..oh actuallly I can < I never use it..no need now or ever> | Jul 07 03:29 |
| anshuljain | hi, just read the Microsoft pledge not to sue any implementations of C# | Jul 07 03:29 |
| neighborlee | samed for tomboy..with gnote I might'' consider using such apps,,we'll see not holding my breath | Jul 07 03:29 |
| anshuljain | http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jul-06.html | Jul 07 03:29 |
| axord | As far as I'm aware, this is the granddaddy of gnome-do: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quicksilver_%28software%29 | Jul 07 03:29 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, your too late,,somebody else has shown us the light ;) | Jul 07 03:30 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, and the hate... | Jul 07 03:30 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, but thx just the same ;) | Jul 07 03:30 |
| anshuljain | haha...I knew as such...I caught it on the Mandriva forums.. | Jul 07 03:30 |
| anshuljain | I'm no GNOME user, but a hardcore KDE one..so I really dont care...but do dislike M$ with great passion | Jul 07 03:31 |
| anshuljain | does this pledge change anything though? | Jul 07 03:31 |
| neighborlee | none of this changes that it must be downloaded from ONLY novel | Jul 07 03:31 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, I doubt it | Jul 07 03:32 |
| anshuljain | so Novell becomes upstream for Mono? | Jul 07 03:32 |
| Will | This is Microsoft. Past history dictates caution in any dealing with them. | Jul 07 03:32 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, considering who its coming from..I highly doubt it | Jul 07 03:32 |
| neighborlee | anshuljain, prob vaper speak | Jul 07 03:32 |
| neighborlee | Will, exacatly | Jul 07 03:32 |
| neighborlee | exactly | Jul 07 03:32 |
| anshuljain | they pretty much are the upstream guys though...Anakin de Icaza and gang | Jul 07 03:33 |
| neighborlee | well the trouble is | Jul 07 03:33 |
| neighborlee | 'some' of us have long memories.. | Jul 07 03:33 |
| neighborlee | those of us who do,,keep such as those like M$ honest. | Jul 07 03:33 |
| anshuljain | true... | Jul 07 03:33 |
| anshuljain | this gives huge ammo to the Ubuntu and Opensuse-GNOME guys | Jul 07 03:34 |
| Will | Anakin de Icaza... cute. | Jul 07 03:34 |
| neighborlee | in a perfect world..yes it would be nice to be able to use everything coming from m$..to share with others whole heartedly..peace and good willl to all...but atm that reality is severely skewed | Jul 07 03:34 |
| neighborlee | till a new day dawns,,,,we exercize due diligence ;) | Jul 07 03:35 |
| anshuljain | neighborlee...I don't trust M$, they did something really nasty in my company which is primarily a Linux shop | Jul 07 03:35 |
| anshuljain | Can't speak about it though publicly.. | Jul 07 03:35 |
| neighborlee | they do similar things to many people/organizations | Jul 07 03:35 |
| M$ does nothing nice | Jul 07 03:35 | |
| neighborlee | sorry to hear that | Jul 07 03:35 |
| ThistleWeb | we excersise? I'm sure that's news to some | Jul 07 03:36 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jul 07 03:36 |
| anshuljain | you're right neighborlee..they do it all the time.. | Jul 07 03:36 |
| the mono people have no new ammo | Jul 07 03:36 | |
| neighborlee | agreed | Jul 07 03:36 |
| it's the same old thing | Jul 07 03:36 | |
| neighborlee | and also | Jul 07 03:36 |
| M$ makes half assed promises | Jul 07 03:36 | |
| nothing has changed. | Jul 07 03:36 | |
| neighborlee | do you note the 'tone' on that url ?..from the posters ? | Jul 07 03:36 |
| neighborlee | note the venom ? ;) | Jul 07 03:36 |
| Will | recent shenanigans like the OOXML scandal and the TomTom case strip any credibility from "kinder, gentler, MS" spins. | Jul 07 03:37 |
| anshuljain | I'm just glad that FOSS has another option always - KDE :) | Jul 07 03:37 |
| ThistleWeb | they do plenty of nice stuff, but it's always nice to THEIR profits and control, regardless of the (intentional or unintentional) colateral damage to others | Jul 07 03:37 |
| Gnome can be forked, if people care. | Jul 07 03:37 | |
| anshuljain | I wonder how is RH gonna respond to this | Jul 07 03:37 |
| It already is if you consider all of the gtk stuff that's out there | Jul 07 03:37 | |
| anshuljain | we all know that Ubuntueros are gonna jump all over on this | Jul 07 03:38 |
| Will | I'm considering it. Only considering at this stage. | Jul 07 03:38 |
| they have been jumping all along, what's new? | Jul 07 03:38 | |
| Will | Never have been able to get Fedora to play nice with my hardware, though. | Jul 07 03:39 |
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| ThistleWeb | Will: it's nothing personal, Fedora seems to be real choosy who it plays with | Jul 07 03:39 |
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| Will | ThistleWeb : if you don't mind a dumb question, could you (or someone else) explain to me how, if distros released around the same time are using roughly the same kernel, there can sometimes be such a variance in hardware support between distros? | Jul 07 03:43 |
| ThistleWeb | fedora are hardcore free software guys | Jul 07 03:43 |
| ThistleWeb | they only include redistributable code | Jul 07 03:44 |
| Will | gotcha. binary blob drivers. | Jul 07 03:44 |
| Will | grumble grumble nvidia grumble grumble. | Jul 07 03:44 |
| ThistleWeb | they're also a cutting edge distro, which does mean stuff has new features but maybe not stable enough for other distros | Jul 07 03:44 |
| ThistleWeb | they have a higher percentage of contriibuters in their user base, who expect a different thing | Jul 07 03:45 |
| ThistleWeb | they can fix stuff easier | Jul 07 03:45 |
| ThistleWeb | they dont really want a normal user base who only consume, they'd rather have a smaller number, but a higher percentage of peeps helping the project | Jul 07 03:45 |
| ThistleWeb | some distros are easier on the non-free code but Fedora have always taken a stand | Jul 07 03:46 |
| Will | Yeah. The Ubuntu community may be helpful and friendly, but the Fedora userbase really knows what it's talking about for more difficult stuff. | Jul 07 03:47 |
| ThistleWeb | apparently you can enable the rpm-fusion repo and all sorts of stuff like skype / mp3 playback etc are at your disposal, but it's not enabled by default | Jul 07 03:47 |
| ThistleWeb | thats why | Jul 07 03:47 |
| Will | I'm basically the kind of person that hacks _with_ Linux as opposed to hacking _on_ Linux. | Jul 07 03:47 |
| ThistleWeb | they are more aimed at devs | Jul 07 03:47 |
| ThistleWeb | usually fedora is a good place to see the stuff most distros will be using 6mths down the line | Jul 07 03:48 |
| Will | I need Linux for my work, but Linux isn't my work. | Jul 07 03:48 |
| Will | I've always respected fedora as the "guinea pig" distro, so to speak. (no offense implied) | Jul 07 03:49 |
| ThistleWeb | it is kinda | Jul 07 03:49 |
| ThistleWeb | they do a lot of good stuff that makes it into other distros | Jul 07 03:49 |
| ThistleWeb | offhand I think plymouth and the tickless kernel were both fedora things | Jul 07 03:50 |
| ThistleWeb | ubuntu 9.10 is gonna have plymouth | Jul 07 03:50 |
| ThistleWeb | fedora had it since 9 I think | Jul 07 03:50 |
| Will | a lot of things are fedora things. They suffer the breakages so the other distros don't have to. | Jul 07 03:50 |
| Will | I like plymouth, but nvidia is dragging its feet in supporting it. | Jul 07 03:51 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, fedora is not for me, it's too bleeding edge | Jul 07 03:51 |
| If I read M$'s little announcement correctly, they have used ecma and patents to make mono explicitly non free. | Jul 07 03:51 | |
| Will | you think ubuntu would have enough weight to get nvidia to move on that? | Jul 07 03:51 |
| They say they won't sue "conforming implementations" | Jul 07 03:51 | |
| ThistleWeb | they'd have the best chance of all the distros | Jul 07 03:52 |
| Will | twitter: I noticed that too | Jul 07 03:52 |
| That means no one can make changes. | Jul 07 03:52 | |
| ThistleWeb | maybe apart from RH | Jul 07 03:52 |
| that makes mono non free, where it's not covered by an up front patent screw over. | Jul 07 03:52 | |
| ThistleWeb | RH dont get enough credit for what they do for all of us | Jul 07 03:53 |
| so every distribution that cares should move mono into their non free branch | Jul 07 03:53 | |
| It should not be included in Debian's free repository or in Fedora. | Jul 07 03:53 | |
| ThistleWeb | I dont mind mono being included in a repo, it's the included by default that I'm not keen on | Jul 07 03:54 |
| Until software patents are eliminated, as Biski says they will be. | Jul 07 03:54 | |
| ThistleWeb | peeps who have a need for it can install it, while those who don't, wont have it installed | Jul 07 03:54 |
| While software patents are still a threat, mono is still a trap. | Jul 07 03:54 | |
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| Will | ThistleWeb: I keep waiting for when nouveau will be good enough to replace the proprietary driver, since nvidia can't keep theirs current. | Jul 07 03:55 |
| Wait for AMD to have free ATI drivers. | Jul 07 03:55 | |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, it'll be a while yet before you can have a fully free desktop without any sacrifices | Jul 07 03:56 |
| Between ATI and Intel, Nvidia will have to follow and M$ is the odd man out. | Jul 07 03:56 | |
| Will | I also don't mind mono in a repo. Just not on the initial install by default. | Jul 07 03:56 |
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| ThistleWeb | if it's in a repo it's easy to install | Jul 07 03:56 |
| As things stand, mono belongs in the non free repo. | Jul 07 03:56 | |
| neighborlee | along with moonlight | Jul 07 03:57 |
| that keeps it away from default | Jul 07 03:57 | |
| cleans up the problems nicely. | Jul 07 03:57 | |
| neighborlee | well I guess that ones not even ANYwhere...? | Jul 07 03:57 |
| ThistleWeb | fedora took a while to add a non-free repo for easy mp3 etc setup and took a lot of flak for it | Jul 07 03:57 |
| Will | twitter : I think one of the BN commenters thinks you and I are the same person. | Jul 07 03:57 |
| that's their problem | Jul 07 03:57 | |
| ThistleWeb | they are very principled | Jul 07 03:58 |
| ThistleWeb | even if that means a FU to some peeps | Jul 07 03:58 |
| *twitter is now known as Bill1 | Jul 07 03:58 | |
| neighborlee | lol | Jul 07 03:58 |
| *Bill1 is now known as Bill_Gates | Jul 07 03:58 | |
| ThistleWeb | so it's no real surprise that fedora have removed tomboy from the install CD | Jul 07 03:59 |
| Bill_Gates | Will and Bill share a common name. | Jul 07 03:59 |
| neighborlee | ThistleWeb, no, gnotes sealed its doom | Jul 07 03:59 |
| neighborlee | so yes. | Jul 07 03:59 |
| *Bill_Gates is now known as twitter | Jul 07 03:59 | |
| gnotes is doomed? | Jul 07 03:59 | |
| neighborlee | gnotes shoulnd't have been needed, but hey we'll take it ;) | Jul 07 04:00 |
| ThistleWeb | having said that, Debian are also just as hardline on free software, so them entertaining mono is puzzling | Jul 07 04:00 |
| Will | ThistleWeb : but I respect Fedora for their stance. That stance may mean that I use another distro for convenience, but it also means I know they will never let themselves get caught in a trap. | Jul 07 04:01 |
| Will | The Debian case confuses me too. | Jul 07 04:02 |
| ThistleWeb | I expected both fedora and debian to be holdouts against mono regardless of how many others got seduced | Jul 07 04:02 |
| When you use nothing but free software, you can have repositories everywhere. This is a key advantage. | Jul 07 04:02 | |
| neighborlee | frankly I wish their distro was a tad easier to use in some areas,,but I trust in time that may come...its already amazing for what it does and if and when many more migrate TO fedora , you aint seen nothing yet ;) | Jul 07 04:02 |
| Will | I mean, coming from the people that brought you Iceweasel. | Jul 07 04:02 |
| neighborlee | agreed +1 | Jul 07 04:02 |
| ThistleWeb | the typical last 2 dudes at the party who refuse to accept it's over | Jul 07 04:03 |
| What about Iceweasel? | Jul 07 04:03 | |
| ThistleWeb | nobody can convice them to go home | Jul 07 04:03 |
| neighborlee | he's saying..that they were even a little ok with mono,,yet iceweasle was so imperative ;0- | Jul 07 04:03 |
| neighborlee | this , from a company specifiucally doing foss....so its fair to ask wth ;)) | Jul 07 04:04 |
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| iceweasle was about Mozilla trademark and porting to other architectures | Jul 07 04:04 | |
| Will | what neighborlee said. They got into a tiff with Mozilla about a minor non-free part of the license, then they accept mono. | Jul 07 04:04 |
| ThistleWeb | I don't think mono will be an issue for that long in debian, I reckon it'll always be a cautious use, ready to be removed at the first sign of trouble | Jul 07 04:04 |
| Debian's Iceweasel runs on ARM, MIPS | Jul 07 04:04 | |
| ThistleWeb | it's being forced right now | Jul 07 04:05 |
| no one is going to force Debian to do anything. | Jul 07 04:05 | |
| ThistleWeb | but I doubt they will let it get to a stage where it's hard to remove | Jul 07 04:05 |
| Will | twitter: you can say that again. | Jul 07 04:05 |
| If they pay attention to what M$ says, they will lock mono away in non free. | Jul 07 04:05 | |
| Debian is a free community. | Jul 07 04:06 | |
| neighborlee | I look at it this way..to someone who commits crime they are locked away where ? | Jul 07 04:06 |
| neighborlee | and M$ has done its share of crimes,,,we all know the bloody story | Jul 07 04:06 |
| neighborlee | and it takes time for a community to trust , after such deceit | Jul 07 04:06 |
| people should understand that mono is not free software, it is restricted in various ways | Jul 07 04:06 | |
| neighborlee | so I ask..where should mono go.. | Jul 07 04:06 |
| ThistleWeb | it is a strange one, it's gpl so it's technically free | Jul 07 04:07 |
| Will | I don't even see where the problem is with locking mono in the extra repos. It's still there, no harder to install than a lot of other software. | Jul 07 04:07 |
| I'm not sure mono has technical advantages great enough to merit inclusion in non free, so it might just get dropped on the floor | Jul 07 04:07 | |
| ThistleWeb | even if it's not really | Jul 07 04:07 |
| neighborlee | twitter, vala might make that a moot arguement | Jul 07 04:08 |
| mono is strange because it's a M$ FUD vehicle | Jul 07 04:08 | |
| nothing about it will ever add up. | Jul 07 04:08 | |
| Will | hence the unusual sound and fury about it all over the web | Jul 07 04:09 |
| neighborlee | well it adds up if you consider what it makes them look like,,IF linux 'adopts it ;) | Jul 07 04:09 |
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| neighborlee | Will, and the loudest, and nastiest from those who support it | Jul 07 04:10 |
| ThistleWeb | when a fight errupts, onlookers only see 2 sides fighting, not who started it | Jul 07 04:10 |
| neighborlee | ah but there is a defining moment there..its not just the fight(),,,its the style thereof ;0- | Jul 07 04:11 |
| ThistleWeb | if they miss the start, or are not following it it just looks like 2 sides fighting | Jul 07 04:11 |
| neighborlee | It can... | Jul 07 04:11 |
| neighborlee | but there is more | Jul 07 04:12 |
| ThistleWeb | on tech stuff, when both sides are posting all sorts of long winded and highly technical arguments (real or bullshit) it's easy for onlookers to glaze over | Jul 07 04:12 |
| neighborlee | if the talks are locked behind closed doors ( think recurring discussions ), then few likely see it or know of it..so its left to obscurity or so they hope | Jul 07 04:12 |
| ThistleWeb | often that type of stuff needs peeps to be following the debate / argument | Jul 07 04:13 |
| ThistleWeb | rather than just dip in at one point (pro or con) | Jul 07 04:13 |
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| ThistleWeb | peeps on both sides use different sites they claim to be fact based, while denouncing others as lies | Jul 07 04:14 |
| neighborlee | and they are free to do so | Jul 07 04:16 |
| ThistleWeb | often the lies are written by peeps well skilled in marketing that it looks legit to most peeps | Jul 07 04:16 |
| neighborlee | long as the debate remains civil'' | Jul 07 04:16 |
| Will | If this were any other language not from MS, it would be used and judged on its technical merits without all the mudslinging. | Jul 07 04:16 |
| Will | I've never seen people go all out to attack or slander the other side like this in a KDE vs. GNOME or emacs vs. vim debate. | Jul 07 04:16 |
| ThistleWeb | "if you want to learn about a BMW, what it's like to own one, the last place you go is the BMW site as it's just an online version of their sales brochure" - Douglas Adams | Jul 07 04:16 |
| ThistleWeb | I think the kde v gnome or vim v emacs is mostly history | Jul 07 04:17 |
| neighborlee | I guess that depends on the product and company behind it ;) | Jul 07 04:17 |
| ThistleWeb | specially vim v emacs, most of us use GUI environments now | Jul 07 04:17 |
| *ThistleWeb ducks | Jul 07 04:17 | |
| ThistleWeb | lol | Jul 07 04:17 |
| neighborlee | LOL | Jul 07 04:17 |
| Will | good one | Jul 07 04:18 |
| neighborlee | yeah you better duck..might be some gentoo'ers in here that use links | Jul 07 04:18 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah, it's a sore subject for some | Jul 07 04:18 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 07 04:18 |
| ThistleWeb | I try to appreciate FOSS / Linux projects for what they are, even if I dont use them | Jul 07 04:18 |
| Will | right tools for the right job. I use whatever works best. | Jul 07 04:18 |
| ThistleWeb | I asked a few podcasts to appeal for help on kde's basket | Jul 07 04:19 |
| ThistleWeb | I dont use kde, or basket | Jul 07 04:19 |
| ThistleWeb | but it's a great app | Jul 07 04:19 |
| Will | I started with KDE. Still using GNOME until I'm confident that 4.x is a drop in replacement for 3.x | Jul 07 04:20 |
| ThistleWeb | kde 4 looks nice | Jul 07 04:20 |
| ThistleWeb | I like where they're going with it | Jul 07 04:20 |
| Will | Me too. | Jul 07 04:20 |
| ThistleWeb | I've grown rather attached to xfce myself, although I'm currently using openbox on crunchbang | Jul 07 04:21 |
| Will | I just wish more people had been listening when the KDE devs loudly proclaimed that 4.0 and 4.1 weren't supposed to be production ready. | Jul 07 04:21 |
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| ThistleWeb | yeah, I understand why 4.0 was handled the way it was, and why peeps got the wrong idea | Jul 07 04:21 |
| Will | They're getting there. step by step. It's the kind of desktop that will do a lot to win over the eye-candy crowd. | Jul 07 04:24 |
| ThistleWeb | yeah but it seems to have a lot of function planned underneath the form | Jul 07 04:24 |
| neighborlee | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/microsoft-applies-community-promise-to-ecma-334-and-335/ | Jul 07 04:24 |
| Will | That too. I for one liked the desktop window spaces. | Jul 07 04:24 |
| Will | Why have just one folder displayed on the desktop when you can have several and work from all of them | Jul 07 04:25 |
| neighborlee | kde in fedora 11 anyway isnt stable..has crashed far too often..its version 4.2.4 though so maybe thats not the most stable version I dont know....ive just seen consistent crashing on various componentse | Jul 07 04:25 |
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| ThistleWeb | neighborlee: methinks fedora may be the cause | Jul 07 04:26 |
| ThistleWeb | it's not known for it's stability | Jul 07 04:26 |
| neighborlee | I have no idea..but I did wonder Yes. | Jul 07 04:26 |
| Will | At this point, I feel like KDE4 + Fedora is just asking for trouble. 2x bleeding edge. | Jul 07 04:26 |
| ThistleWeb | even on mature apps that work great everywhere else | Jul 07 04:26 |
| neighborlee | certain things are less stable then others shall we say | Jul 07 04:26 |
| neighborlee | like pulse o_0 | Jul 07 04:26 |
| ThistleWeb | grrrr I HATE Pulse Audio | Jul 07 04:27 |
| neighborlee | though...its working alOT better now that I applied some fixes someone nicely posted on fedora forum | Jul 07 04:27 |
| neighborlee | heh I feel your pain | Jul 07 04:27 |
| ThistleWeb | Pulse does NOT like my hardware | Jul 07 04:27 |
| neighborlee | ouch | Jul 07 04:27 |
| Will | still happily using alsa | Jul 07 04:27 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 07 04:27 |
| ThistleWeb | any app that uses it wpnt work on my hardware, but a simple switch to alsa is the magic wand | Jul 07 04:27 |
| ThistleWeb | once I had audacious jump from alsa to pulse for some reason | Jul 07 04:28 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm guessing some update flicked it when it shouldn't have | Jul 07 04:28 |
| ThistleWeb | took me ages to find the prob, with reinstalls etc | Jul 07 04:29 |
| ThistleWeb | until I spotted Pulse in the settings | Jul 07 04:29 |
| Will | I've learned to let the "hey, let's rewrite this just cause we can!" projects take their time. Sometimes they produce good stuff, but I don't jump until they've gotten their stuff sorted. I've stuck enough forks in toasters already. | Jul 07 04:29 |
| ThistleWeb | I had to restrain myself to save the monitor lol | Jul 07 04:29 |
| ThistleWeb | I like the potential pulse has | Jul 07 04:29 |
| ThistleWeb | it just will not work on my hardware | Jul 07 04:30 |
| Will | Pulse is a good idea. Might tame the Linux sound zoo. | Jul 07 04:30 |
| Will | I just haven't yet heard that it works 100% | Jul 07 04:30 |
| ThistleWeb | it seems a lot of peeps have a love hate thing with pulse, those who it works for think it's great, while many others like me have nothing but hassle with it | Jul 07 04:31 |
| ThistleWeb | I like the idea of separate levels for each app | Jul 07 04:32 |
| ThistleWeb | and piping a source to another | Jul 07 04:32 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 07 04:32 |
| ThistleWeb | so pulse is the future....I just hope the future still know the concept of "it has to work" | Jul 07 04:33 |
| neighborlee | thats the beauty of it | Jul 07 04:33 |
| neighborlee | windows has something similar | Jul 07 04:33 |
| ThistleWeb | yep, windows does indeed | Jul 07 04:33 |
| ThistleWeb | it has had for a while | Jul 07 04:33 |
| neighborlee | yup | Jul 07 04:33 |
| ThistleWeb | pulse will get there | Jul 07 04:34 |
| Will | just like KDE4 | Jul 07 04:34 |
| neighborlee | heh | Jul 07 04:34 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Jul 07 04:34 |
| neighborlee | indeed | Jul 07 04:34 |
| neighborlee | only thing Istill hav e..is static sounds in some game areas where in windows for the same game I do not | Jul 07 04:34 |
| Will | and hopefully Gnome 3 will have a smoother ride than KDE4 has. | Jul 07 04:34 |
| neighborlee | but that could be other factors, im not really sure yet | Jul 07 04:35 |
| ThistleWeb | gnome will have watched kde's experiences and have learned the good and bad from their approach | Jul 07 04:35 |
| neighborlee | well I still agree with linus about gnome..'just use kde' | Jul 07 04:35 |
| neighborlee | isn't alt-F2 enough to verify that ? ;) | Jul 07 04:35 |
| neighborlee | I mean..lets get real here ;) | Jul 07 04:36 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jul 07 04:36 |
| Will | and gnome was always more of the "slow and steady" type than KDE anyway. | Jul 07 04:36 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm glad the devs on both teams are working to help each other, and that it's just the hardline fanbois trying to stir up some animosity | Jul 07 04:36 |
| ThistleWeb | make gtk apps work (and look) better on kde and vice versa | Jul 07 04:36 |
| ThistleWeb | that can only be good for all of us | Jul 07 04:36 |
| *ThistleWeb appreciates the work of all the FOSS devs, regardless of their platform of choice | Jul 07 04:37 | |
| neighborlee | as we should | Jul 07 04:37 |
| Will | as do I | Jul 07 04:37 |
| Will | Which is one reason I don't like all of the Ubuntu hate | Jul 07 04:37 |
| Will | Even if I didn't use it as my primary distro. | Jul 07 04:37 |
| ThistleWeb | yep | Jul 07 04:37 |
| neighborlee | ubuntu hate ? | Jul 07 04:38 |
| neighborlee | elaborate | Jul 07 04:38 |
| ThistleWeb | it's the poster child distro with the momentum | Jul 07 04:38 |
| Will | Just how on some blogs, even among the Linux community, hating on Ubuntu seems to be the popular thing. | Jul 07 04:38 |
| ThistleWeb | I reckon there's a lot of jelousy from the more established distros that Ubuntu is the johnny-come-lately stealing all the limelight they've carefully nurtured | Jul 07 04:39 |
| neighborlee | I guess that depends on the topic . | Jul 07 04:39 |
| ThistleWeb | not from the distros themselves, but from some of their users | Jul 07 04:39 |
| Will | ThistleWeb : that's probably a lot of it. | Jul 07 04:39 |
| Will | Ubuntu contributes in its own ways. It's done a lot for Linux mindshare, although I also would rather that people remember Ubuntu != Linux. | Jul 07 04:40 |
| ThistleWeb | some linux users feel that it's a badge of honour to be able to do a hard install etc, so any distro that makes it easy for newbies weakens their cred | Jul 07 04:40 |
| ThistleWeb | ubuntu are the juggernaught we all ride | Jul 07 04:40 |
| ThistleWeb | I'm happy to help add my weight to the momentum | Jul 07 04:41 |
| neighborlee | gentoo users get that sentiment..its lost on most everyone else | Jul 07 04:41 |
| neighborlee | gentoo is kewl for what it does..not so much for the hastle it wreaks on ones nerves LOL | Jul 07 04:41 |
| ThistleWeb | possibly slackware too | Jul 07 04:41 |
| neighborlee | I hated masks | Jul 07 04:41 |
| neighborlee | USE is kewl..masks not so miuch | Jul 07 04:41 |
| neighborlee | uch | Jul 07 04:41 |
| Will | In my view, a victory for any Linux distro is a victory for all distros. | Jul 07 04:41 |
| Will | except SUSE :P | Jul 07 04:42 |
| ThistleWeb | many peeps will start with ubuntu, then drift to something else when they get their heads around the whole linux thing | Jul 07 04:42 |
| ThistleWeb | while others will stay with ubuntu | Jul 07 04:42 |
| ThistleWeb | either way, it's one more PC user who's not on Windows or OSX | Jul 07 04:42 |
| ThistleWeb | which is a win for Linux and FOSS | Jul 07 04:42 |
| neighborlee | the geek mind willl often drift I suppose...its like people and sports risks ;)) | Jul 07 04:42 |
| neighborlee | thrill of the ride | Jul 07 04:43 |
| neighborlee | and thats fine | Jul 07 04:43 |
| Will | I think I tried about 5-6 distros before Ubuntu... I'm just enjoying a rest period from the hopping right now. | Jul 07 04:43 |
| ThistleWeb | I loved pclinuxos | Jul 07 04:43 |
| neighborlee | Will, yeah a rest well desered ;) | Jul 07 04:44 |
| neighborlee | man that was getting OLD | Jul 07 04:44 |
| ThistleWeb | I've since grown out of kde and rpm but that was a damn fine distro | Jul 07 04:44 |
| ThistleWeb | it did fade a bit, but the 2009 version is almost back | Jul 07 04:44 |
| Will | Ubuntu is the first distro I tried since running Linux that I actually upgraded to the same distro again. | Jul 07 04:44 |
| ThistleWeb | still on kde 3.5 | Jul 07 04:45 |
| ThistleWeb | as I said, I've been converted to gtk apps now, so I'd be hard pushed to switch to qt. I've also been converted to .deb based distros so an .rpm base would be a hard sell too | Jul 07 04:45 |
| neighborlee | 4.x really is nice ..so far really enjoying it... | Jul 07 04:46 |
| ThistleWeb | I try to have my whole desktop either GTK or QT depending on the DE I'm using | Jul 07 04:46 |
| Will | PCLinuxOS sounds a lot like its parent, Mandriva. Started off strong, lost its way, trying to make a comeback | Jul 07 04:47 |
| ThistleWeb | my only exceptions are smplayer, vlc, skype and opera on my gtk desktop | Jul 07 04:47 |
| ThistleWeb | you know the relationship with mandriva? | Jul 07 04:47 |
| neighborlee | mandriva does alot right..sadly some not so right but as a OS goes its amazing | Jul 07 04:47 |
| ThistleWeb | connection is probs a better word | Jul 07 04:47 |
| neighborlee | IF they were not mired in mono, I might well be using them RIGHt now | Jul 07 04:47 |
| Will | true, it isn't quite like Debian/Ubuntu | Jul 07 04:47 |
| neighborlee | I loved their urpmX tools | Jul 07 04:47 |
| neighborlee | so fedora is the next best, keeping me safe from harms way, away from debian/ubuntu folly | Jul 07 04:48 |
| Will | I liked apt-get, synaptic better than urpmi | Jul 07 04:48 |
| ThistleWeb | some of the mandarke devs didn't like where mandrake was headed when it became mandriva, and forked it.......so pclinuxos is the natural bloodline of mandrake | Jul 07 04:49 |
| Will | ah. I didn't know that | Jul 07 04:49 |
| ThistleWeb | thats why it has a lot of mandrake stuff in it | Jul 07 04:49 |
| Will | Mandrake 10.0 was my first linux | Jul 07 04:49 |
| ThistleWeb | it was my first glimpse of linux too, in my case 9.1 | Jul 07 04:50 |
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| Will | Not counting a weeklong stint with FC1 that ended badly | Jul 07 04:50 |
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| ThistleWeb | pclinux is an odd one too, on eone hand it;s rpm, on the other it uses synaptic | Jul 07 04:52 |
| Will | does 2009 use network manager? | Jul 07 04:52 |
| ThistleWeb | last time I used it, the repos were quite small (compared to debian) but then the debian repos are HUGE, so that's not saying much | Jul 07 04:52 |
| ThistleWeb | dunno | Jul 07 04:52 |
| Will | ok. | Jul 07 04:53 |
| ThistleWeb | on the other hand I've noticed a lot of lib files in debian count towards the total, so there are plenty of packages which dont really do anything on their own | Jul 07 04:53 |
| Will | gotta go for now. | Jul 07 04:54 |
| ThistleWeb | when you take that into account, the debian number seems high | Jul 07 04:54 |
| ThistleWeb | cya | Jul 07 04:54 |
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| ThistleWeb | bbl | Jul 07 05:16 |
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| I'm having a hell of a time finding a linux netbook for sale. | Jul 07 05:41 | |
| Dell has one but it's expensive and they won't promise it will work with ekiga and skype | Jul 07 05:41 | |
| J&R music world "linux netbook" and "ubuntu netbook" are frequent enough searches that they auto complete but they return zero results. | Jul 07 05:43 | |
| "Acer linux netbook" returns 29 netbooks with XP and Vista | Jul 07 05:43 | |
| Amazon.com won't even load in Iceweasel 3.0.6 | Jul 07 05:44 | |
| Walmart tells me "Acer recommends Windows Vista® Home Premium" - fuckers. | Jul 07 05:46 | |
| macabe_ | Walmart is trying to get rid of the Acer 11.6 netbooks @ $398. Its still going to backfire. | Jul 07 05:49 |
| macabe_ | Comes with atom z520 (very underpowered 1.13mhz), 2gb RAM, 250gb hdd | Jul 07 05:50 |
| macabe_ | Video streaming really sucks on this model cause of cpu and intel GMA500. | Jul 07 05:52 |
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| ah http://www.zareason.com/shop/home.php | Jul 07 06:04 | |
| wallet says, no! | Jul 07 06:04 | |
| better http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92 | Jul 07 06:07 | |
| macabe_ | Wouldn't buy it. The selling point was the 11.6" screen, else it's slower than the 10.1" one | Jul 07 06:08 |
| macabe_ | and worse it comes with vista home premium. | Jul 07 06:09 |
| I need to look around some more. | Jul 07 06:12 | |
| the big box places suck. | Jul 07 06:12 | |
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| mrguser | Hello | Jul 07 08:30 |
| kentma | hi | Jul 07 08:31 |
| mrguser | ms said anybody can implement c# and cli without licence from them | Jul 07 08:32 |
| mrguser | http://mobile.itwire.com/content/view/26117/1090 | Jul 07 08:32 |
| mrguser | but mono has "a lot more than c# and cli" | Jul 07 08:32 |
| mrguser | Of course novell has patent protection for ado.net, asp.net, winforms and others | Jul 07 08:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] BT not deploying Phorm? http://bit.ly/vicjC #phorm #bt | Jul 07 08:38 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] So #Torchwood has returned? I caught the repeat on BBC3. Quite good but certainly not IMO as great as many seem to think. | Jul 07 08:38 | |
| kentma | Torchwood is pretty good, I think, but as it says on the tin, it's an adult Doctor Who... | Jul 07 08:39 |
| mitsuhiko | mrguser: same rule applies to libraries you might use with the jvm | Jul 07 08:43 |
| mitsuhiko | i'm pretty sure miguel will find a solution for ado and asp, because microsoft is interested in x-platform support there (and partially open sourced it), but i can't see any real-world advantage in writing new applications for winforms | Jul 07 08:44 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Closing Terminator (terminal app) in Ubuntu Karmic 9.10 I got a notification that made me smile http://popey.com/~alan/terminator.png :) | Jul 07 08:53 | |
| mrguser | mitsushiko, i haven't heard of any patent problems with jvm | Jul 07 09:18 |
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| Lich | hi all | Jul 07 09:19 |
| mrguser | and i haven't heard of sun sueing others for their patents regarding jvm | Jul 07 09:19 |
| mrguser | And you want me to treat ms and sun equally, yes, they are corporations, but have quite different histories | Jul 07 09:23 |
| Lich | Is it me or are some web hosts microsoft servants? | Jul 07 09:27 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Chrome Beta for Linux has just been updated! Bookmarks manager now working!....thats the first new feature Ive found.... #chrome #linux | Jul 07 09:38 | |
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| mitsuhiko | mrguser: my name is mitsuhiko, and there are patents on *every* software out there with more than 20k lines of code | Jul 07 09:55 |
| mitsuhiko | there are tons of libraries people use with the jvm that are covered by patents | Jul 07 09:55 |
| MinceR | who has sun licensed those patents to? | Jul 07 09:56 |
| MinceR | and under what terms? | Jul 07 09:57 |
| trmanco | http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/osp-gpl.html | Jul 07 09:57 |
| MinceR | as for the .net/mono news item: any "promise" from m$ is perfectly worthless unless it's _legally binding_ | Jul 07 09:58 |
| MinceR | their "promise" does seem to be, though. (IANAL) | Jul 07 09:59 |
| MinceR | the news item says they "will" be applying it. so we'll see what happens. | Jul 07 10:00 |
| mitsuhiko | MinceR: it is legaly binding, get your facts straight | Jul 07 10:24 |
| maxstirner1 | is roy on holiday? | Jul 07 10:25 |
| mitsuhiko | maxstirner1: he sits in his think-tank thinking about new arguments against mono | Jul 07 10:28 |
| maxstirner1 | i sincerely hope so.. | Jul 07 10:29 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi schestowitz! | Jul 07 11:35 |
| mitsuhiko | _Hicham_: no schestowitz here | Jul 07 11:40 |
| _Hicham_ | mitshiko : where is he? on vacation already? | Jul 07 11:41 |
| mitsuhiko | hopefully somewhere where he can't do any damage | Jul 07 11:43 |
| _Hicham_ | mitsuhiko : why do u say that ? is he nervous ? | Jul 07 11:45 |
| mitsuhiko | he's harmful, that's what he is | Jul 07 11:46 |
| _Hicham_ | mitsuhiko : he has never been harmful, he says the truth | Jul 07 11:47 |
| _Hicham_ | mitsuhiko : are u a mono developer? | Jul 07 11:47 |
| mitsuhiko | _Hicham_: still angry on mono, now that it's under the community promisse? | Jul 07 11:48 |
| mitsuhiko | or what are the arguments now? | Jul 07 11:48 |
| _Hicham_ | the arguments are the same | Jul 07 11:49 |
| _Hicham_ | nothing to trust from microsoft | Jul 07 11:49 |
| mitsuhiko | _Hicham_: there are some talented programmers that try to resolve that problem with non FUD, so you might want to check out david siegels blog post | Jul 07 11:49 |
| mitsuhiko | http://blog.davebsd.com/2009/06/28/five-steps-to-vanquish-mono/ | Jul 07 11:49 |
| mitsuhiko | that's a starting point | Jul 07 11:49 |
| _Hicham_ | there is already great alternatives to mono | Jul 07 11:54 |
| _Hicham_ | for instance vala | Jul 07 11:54 |
| _Hicham_ | vala have almost the C# syntax minus the bloated runtime | Jul 07 11:55 |
| mitsuhiko | _Hicham_: [ ] you are a developer | Jul 07 11:57 |
| mitsuhiko | it's not the syntax that matters | Jul 07 11:57 |
| mitsuhiko | it's what you can do with the runtime | Jul 07 11:57 |
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| oiaohm | http://education.zdnet.com/?p=2770 Interesting shift. | Jul 07 14:16 |
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| neighborlee | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/microsoft-applies-community-promise-to-ecma-334-and-335/ < interesting too | Jul 07 14:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Wikimedia blog: BibleBay! http://bit.ly/ANiLa | Jul 07 14:23 | |
| neighborlee | http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14473 < by Aysgarth on Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:33 pm < also interesting | Jul 07 14:26 |
| neighborlee | The only use for Silverlight I have come across is the Playboy Archive. < HA intriguing outlook on all things silverlight ;) | Jul 07 14:27 |
| Ng | silverlight was used for the obama inauguration afair | Jul 07 14:28 |
| neighborlee | and thats just fine ;) | Jul 07 14:28 |
| Ng | I'd like to see an actual breakdown of what Mono currently implements and is working on implementing in the future, that falls outside the ECMA specs | Jul 07 14:28 |
| neighborlee | no one ever said obama was perfect ;)( | Jul 07 14:28 |
| Ng | afaict it's all very uninteresting stuff that can be packaged separately, kept in non-free type repositories, and generally ignored by the vast majority of users | Jul 07 14:28 |
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| Some things never change. It's new Windows version time. Just like spring flowers, the exploit descriptions are popping up in the Wintel press with promises of protection in the new versions. | Jul 07 14:58 | |
| -> According to Microsoft, the component itself does not have any legitimate use, and the flaw is believed to exist only in Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 systems. Windows Vista and Server 2008 are not believed to be vulnerable to the attack. | Jul 07 14:58 | |
| http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2245511/microsoft-warns-security-threat | Jul 07 14:58 | |
| Forecast: Loud and Trolly through December: http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400535 | Jul 07 15:01 | |
| They still think people will pay hundreds of dollars for an OS. | Jul 07 15:04 | |
| neighborlee | ' For example, if you want to be able to access your PC via remote desktop, you have to stump up the cash for Professional . But consider whether you really need to spend extra cash for a feature that you can add for free ( tightVNC ). '< haha thats great : ie: to windows 7 or not : for widows updaters that is ;-= | Jul 07 15:05 |
| neighborlee | http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=4658&page=3 < here | Jul 07 15:05 |
| Dvorac laughs at this too. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2349780,00.asp | Jul 07 15:05 | |
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| -> There is a sense of larceny when one witnesses this sort of scam. The Ultimate product is coded. It is finished. Why is Microsoft taking features out of the product after they have been designed in? Is the company doing it to create a totally artificial line up of different products for different markets? Apparently so, but why? The Ultimate product would have serviced all these markets in the first place. | Jul 07 15:06 | |
| neighborlee | ' Remember, Microsoft relies on naive users being dissatisfied with the lower-specced editions of Windows to boost revenues. ' hmmmmmmm :)) | Jul 07 15:06 |
| It relies on OEM strangulation. | Jul 07 15:07 | |
| neighborlee | maybe he is just FUD'ing around..he hates M$!!!! | Jul 07 15:07 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 07 15:07 |
| neighborlee | twitter, quite | Jul 07 15:07 |
| neighborlee | compare that to linux, and its easy to see why they think we are a cancer ;)) | Jul 07 15:07 |
| neighborlee | and want to infect us. | Jul 07 15:07 |
| neighborlee | make us part of their pact of .net users so we all look the same to the outside world...hmmmmmmm | Jul 07 15:08 |
| Vista 7 will be the end of them. | Jul 07 15:08 | |
| It's going to flop worse than Vista did. | Jul 07 15:08 | |
| neighborlee | just end to a unjust organization | Jul 07 15:09 |
| wallclimber | good morning! | Jul 07 15:09 |
| neighborlee | hi there ;0- | Jul 07 15:10 |
| neighborlee | so what has you climbing the walls ;)) | Jul 07 15:10 |
| wallclimber | i paint murals, sometimes | Jul 07 15:10 |
| wallclimber | so i have to climb ladders and scaffolds | Jul 07 15:11 |
| Here's a criticism almost as good as my failure log. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9004871/Windows_Vista_A_to_Z | Jul 07 15:11 | |
| wallclimber | yesterday's attempts to install linux on my friend's old computer wasn't successful. It was my first experience where at least one distro didn't work. It was a little frustrating. | Jul 07 15:12 |
| Article after article about how to make Windows suck less. How to disable features that annoy and where to get the 20 or so utilities that make it do anything useful. | Jul 07 15:12 | |
| wallclimber | so that had me climbing the walls a bit :) | Jul 07 15:12 |
| some that even claim they can stop the damn thing from crashing. | Jul 07 15:12 | |
| Windows is always the same trash. | Jul 07 15:13 | |
| Garbage pail sales climb sky high, like a giant dildo crushing the sun. http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400674 | Jul 07 15:20 | |
| wallclimber | twitter, do you think win 7 will be released on schedule - October '09? | Jul 07 15:21 |
| -> Windows 7 Professional is going for $99, down from $199. That's good news for Microsoft, which saw Windows sales fall 16% in the most recent quarter. | Jul 07 15:21 | |
| Sales down are "strong"? Ha ha. | Jul 07 15:21 | |
| neighborlee | wallclimber, fitting then ;))) | Jul 07 15:22 |
| It's like Vista all over again. Windows 7 Capable, channel stuffing, and a little fanboy spurt of sales, all to be followed by massive disappointment and money loss. | Jul 07 15:23 | |
| Remember that late October launch date. M$ promises not to fail this time. | Jul 07 15:24 | |
| neighborlee | sorry was reading about 16 year old who..well was out of her mind on one day shall we say..using dog as attack weapon while claiming the right to killl it as it was her 'right'...EEK gad makes you wonder how kids like that , turn out that way...I hope dog isn't euthanized and that she gets help not a slap on wrist ;0- | Jul 07 15:24 |
| neighborlee | http://www.komonews.com/news/local/50094707.html | Jul 07 15:24 |
| no problem, you did not miss anything important. | Jul 07 15:25 | |
| The MicroTards make buying a computer a real pain in the ass. | Jul 07 15:26 | |
| I'm hesitant to even buy a netbook, because I'm not sure any of them come with hardware that does not need non free drivers. | Jul 07 15:27 | |
| Even Ausus has been accused of GPL violations. | Jul 07 15:27 | |
| I really don't want a laptop that won't just work with Debian out of the box. | Jul 07 15:28 | |
| So, I cling to my ancient Thinkpad. | Jul 07 15:28 | |
| neighborlee | kk :)) | Jul 07 15:28 |
| bbl | Jul 07 15:29 | |
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| neighborlee | asus huh | Jul 07 15:29 |
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| wallclimber | sadly, he has a point about hardware. it's a shame that hardware companies don't allow their products to work with all operating systems | Jul 07 15:32 |
| wallclimber | that was the frustration we ran into yesterday. i was astounded that none of the systems we tried worked | Jul 07 15:33 |
| wallclimber | not even ubuntu | Jul 07 15:33 |
| neighborlee | yes | Jul 07 15:34 |
| neighborlee | on what | Jul 07 15:34 |
| wallclimber | it was a desktop, not a name brand, just a mish-mash of parts | Jul 07 15:35 |
| neighborlee | ah | Jul 07 15:35 |
| wallclimber | it had been running xpsp3 | Jul 07 15:35 |
| neighborlee | yeah some hardware can be iffy | Jul 07 15:35 |
| wallclimber | MSI board, 1GB memory, Creative soundblaster live sound, radeon 9200 video | Jul 07 15:37 |
| neighborlee | weird | Jul 07 15:37 |
| wallclimber | i thought it would be an easy install | Jul 07 15:37 |
| neighborlee | what didn't work | Jul 07 15:37 |
| neighborlee | as in errors etc. | Jul 07 15:37 |
| wallclimber | no errors came up, but the four live cds we tried all ended up not working, at some point | Jul 07 15:38 |
| wallclimber | i tried all the cds on my own computers and they worked fine | Jul 07 15:38 |
| neighborlee | ouch | Jul 07 15:39 |
| neighborlee | not much to go on, but sorry that happened regardless o_0 | Jul 07 15:40 |
| wallclimber | wolvix didn't work at all, xubuntu did fine, but the display was | Jul 07 15:40 |
| wallclimber | constantly "adjusting" itself | Jul 07 15:41 |
| neighborlee | ive heard of ati woes, yes. | Jul 07 15:41 |
| neighborlee | and thats a old 'ish card | Jul 07 15:41 |
| neighborlee | so yeah | Jul 07 15:41 |
| neighborlee | still..EEK | Jul 07 15:41 |
| neighborlee | yeah very old | Jul 07 15:42 |
| wallclimber | i kept thinking that once something was installed we | Jul 07 15:42 |
| wallclimber | could get it all fixed | Jul 07 15:42 |
| neighborlee | yeah ;(* | Jul 07 15:42 |
| wallclimber | so we decided on xubuntu, but it would freeze and never even got to the point letting us | Jul 07 15:43 |
| wallclimber | partition | Jul 07 15:43 |
| wallclimber | mandriva did similar | Jul 07 15:44 |
| wallclimber | plain ubuntu did the best, but still hit a point where it would hang endlessly | Jul 07 15:44 |
| wallclimber | i just told my friend we'd try again later | Jul 07 15:44 |
| wallclimber | one thing ubuntu did that i really liked | Jul 07 15:45 |
| wallclimber | all of the live cds would hang at one point or another, and there is no graceful way to get out of it, except turn the computer off | Jul 07 15:45 |
| neighborlee | well..as much as I dislike their ideology, they 'might' be linux best shot at desktop leveling....at least send them a bug report. | Jul 07 15:46 |
| neighborlee | very odd yes..I suspect somethign VERY proprietary about your mobo | Jul 07 15:46 |
| wallclimber | but with ubuntu, when i pushed the off button, popped up a | Jul 07 15:46 |
| neighborlee | that linux doesnt know about 'yet'..but being older , thats a bit surprising | Jul 07 15:47 |
| wallclimber | box that allowed us to shut it down correctly...nice | Jul 07 15:47 |
| neighborlee | yup nice | Jul 07 15:47 |
| wallclimber | i've gotten some really old computers to work before | Jul 07 15:47 |
| wallclimber | this one really had me stumped | Jul 07 15:47 |
| neighborlee | yup | Jul 07 15:47 |
| wallclimber | the only hardware i had no experience with was the radeon | Jul 07 15:48 |
| wallclimber | anyway, sorry to ramble | Jul 07 15:48 |
| wallclimber | not looking for help, just scratching my head over it all | Jul 07 15:49 |
| wallclimber | my friend wasn't disappointed, he seemed okay with it all | Jul 07 15:50 |
| neighborlee | wallclimber, please check your PM :) | Jul 07 15:51 |
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| Impor05 | Hi guys | Jul 07 16:05 |
| Impor05 | then it is safe now to use mono | Jul 07 16:06 |
| neighborlee | http://linuxologist.com/linuxhumor/ubuntu-is-a-microsoft-product-now/ | Jul 07 16:06 |
| neighborlee | Impor05, I remain cautiously optimistic | Jul 07 16:07 |
| Impor05 | I'm just waiting for your green light to put my hands on mono | Jul 07 16:07 |
| neighborlee | Impor05, how can you now, knowing WHO this is coming from ? | Jul 07 16:07 |
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| neighborlee | Impor05, how can you not, knowing WHO this is coming from .... | Jul 07 16:07 |
| neighborlee | o_0 | Jul 07 16:07 |
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| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: because there is a thing called law | Jul 07 16:16 |
| neighborlee | make your point | Jul 07 16:16 |
| neighborlee | ive done some reading..and its not a cinched thing from whatm im seeing | Jul 07 16:17 |
| neighborlee | Ill wait till I hear more thx. | Jul 07 16:17 |
| neighborlee | like Isaid..who its coming from makes it very suspect. | Jul 07 16:18 |
| neighborlee | would you really blame anyone for feeling that way ? | Jul 07 16:18 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: to be humble, i'm quite fed up with defending mono over and over again | Jul 07 16:23 |
| neighborlee | well.. | Jul 07 16:23 |
| mitsuhiko | where exactly is the problem with the community promise? | Jul 07 16:23 |
| neighborlee | I'd not have minded SO much,if not for their style thereof | Jul 07 16:23 |
| neighborlee | but yeah | Jul 07 16:23 |
| neighborlee | did you mean bashing, or defending? | Jul 07 16:23 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: i'm none of the boycott novell guys | Jul 07 16:24 |
| mitsuhiko | i'm a developer and love the possibilities mono gives me | Jul 07 16:24 |
| neighborlee | thenyou prob. meant bashing | Jul 07 16:24 |
| neighborlee | yup bashing | Jul 07 16:24 |
| neighborlee | fine- | Jul 07 16:24 |
| neighborlee | your choice | Jul 07 16:24 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: bashing what? | Jul 07 16:24 |
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| mitsuhiko | don't put words in my mouth lad | Jul 07 16:25 |
| nicktastic | mitsuhiko: afaik the promise covers the standards. Mono implements non-standard APIs that are not protected by the promise. And I don't know if a 'promise' is legally binding. | Jul 07 16:27 |
| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: yes a promise is legally binding and it cannot be revoked | Jul 07 16:27 |
| mitsuhiko | and why would anyone in the linux world care for the non-standard apis from microsoft? | Jul 07 16:27 |
| mitsuhiko | the nonstandard apis serve the same purpose wine does, | Jul 07 16:28 |
| nicktastic | Talk to the Mono people. | Jul 07 16:28 |
| mitsuhiko | about what? | Jul 07 16:28 |
| nicktastic | About your question | Jul 07 16:28 |
| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: which question?= | Jul 07 16:28 |
| nicktastic | ... | Jul 07 16:28 |
| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: maybe you should read up what rhetorical questions are | Jul 07 16:29 |
| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: repeat after me: nobody in the linux world cares about asp.net | Jul 07 16:29 |
| mitsuhiko | or $otherlibrary | Jul 07 16:29 |
| nicktastic | You're mistaken | Jul 07 16:30 |
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| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: elaborate | Jul 07 16:30 |
| rubenv | so, what's up with the microsoft promise? | Jul 07 16:30 |
| nicktastic | I don't care enough to go into it, suffice it to say that it is improbable, to say the least, that 'no one in the linux world' cares about the non-standard APIs. | Jul 07 16:31 |
| mitsuhiko | nicktastic: if you want to use the microsoft apis that's your thing | Jul 07 16:31 |
| mitsuhiko | neither debian nor ubuntu ship with them | Jul 07 16:31 |
| nicktastic | Ok | Jul 07 16:31 |
| rubenv | I guess we can safely use the pure C# now for linux applications? | Jul 07 16:32 |
| mitsuhiko | roy was (and i suppose he will continue) bashing the whole projects | Jul 07 16:32 |
| mitsuhiko | -s | Jul 07 16:32 |
| BobSprite | what do standard or non-standard API's have to do with mono, or WINE . | Jul 07 16:32 |
| mitsuhiko | BobSprite: if someone implements other microsoft apis and infringes patents, there is no protection from microsoft's side | Jul 07 16:33 |
| mitsuhiko | which makes a lot of sense, because the same thing is the case for literally any software project out there | Jul 07 16:33 |
| neighborlee | rubenv, dont count your chickens just yet...others are NOT so sure. | Jul 07 16:34 |
| BobSprite | thats right, and thats regardless of what programming language you use | Jul 07 16:34 |
| neighborlee | rubenv, http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14473 | Jul 07 16:34 |
| neighborlee | http://mono-nono.com/2009/07/07/microsoft-applies-community-promise-to-ecma-334-and-335/ | Jul 07 16:34 |
| mitsuhiko | rubenv: yes, mono is fine and always was | Jul 07 16:34 |
| neighborlee | mitsuhiko, wrong | Jul 07 16:35 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: wrong | Jul 07 16:35 |
| neighborlee | ' mono can only be downloaded from novel ' | Jul 07 16:35 |
| neighborlee | you call that right ??? | Jul 07 16:35 |
| mitsuhiko | which is wrong | Jul 07 16:35 |
| neighborlee | palease | Jul 07 16:35 |
| neighborlee | from goldfarb himself < | Jul 07 16:35 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: apt-get install mono and your myth is debunked | Jul 07 16:36 |
| neighborlee | lol | Jul 07 16:36 |
| rubenv | so that means mono apps are now safe to add by default? | Jul 07 16:36 |
| neighborlee | http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20080528133529454 <have fun with this one mitsuhiko | Jul 07 16:36 |
| BobSprite | how much arguing came from there to keep mono out of Distro's, and now you complain its not easy to get ? | Jul 07 16:36 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: moonlight != mono | Jul 07 16:37 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: and moonlight ships with microsoft patented video codecs | Jul 07 16:37 |
| mitsuhiko | that's a completely different story | Jul 07 16:37 |
| neighborlee | yes and its restricted in fedora...yes we know all about it | Jul 07 16:37 |
| neighborlee | move on | Jul 07 16:37 |
| rubenv | it doesn't ship with it | Jul 07 16:37 |
| rubenv | get the facts right | Jul 07 16:37 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: you can compile a moonlight build without microsoft codecs | Jul 07 16:38 |
| mitsuhiko | what's your point? | Jul 07 16:38 |
| rubenv | asks if you want to download it when they are needed | Jul 07 16:38 |
| mitsuhiko | rubenv: right, but this is only possible in the version novell distributes | Jul 07 16:38 |
| mitsuhiko | because of an agreement between microsoft and novell | Jul 07 16:38 |
| mitsuhiko | (the microsoft codec download) | Jul 07 16:39 |
| rubenv | mitsuhiko: who cares? | Jul 07 16:39 |
| mitsuhiko | may i remind you that codecs on linux are patented in general? | Jul 07 16:39 |
| rubenv | we can still use it for all our neat stuff that doesn't require those codecs | Jul 07 16:39 |
| mitsuhiko | it's not even clear that there are no submarine patents on theora | Jul 07 16:39 |
| rubenv | and I live in europe, I don't give a crap about patents | Jul 07 16:39 |
| rubenv | if the US wants to hold the world back, then that's fine, but we're not doing that | Jul 07 16:40 |
| cj | http://progfree.org/ | Jul 07 16:40 |
| mitsuhiko | http://discuss.itwire.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=14473 <- muhaha. does not sound like the commenters understand what they are reading | Jul 07 16:40 |
| cj | mitsuhiko: you seem rational and well informed. you must be a troll. | Jul 07 16:41 |
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| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: there are some more profund discussions about that topic on other parts of the internet, the link you're posted, not so much | Jul 07 16:41 |
| cj | mitsuhiko: heh, I had that conversation (theora + patents) with miguel a year and a half ago. I was arguing that it was the one true way and was just nonplussed by his insistence that it may not be. | Jul 07 16:42 |
| neighborlee | mitsuhiko, apparantly,,iyho ? ;)( | Jul 07 16:43 |
| neighborlee | fine :) | Jul 07 16:43 |
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| neighborlee | as if there aren't alternat ives TO MONO, that have existed for way longer and ones currently in development...so lets not even go there | Jul 07 16:44 |
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| BobSprite | Europe may not have software patents, but if they breach an US software patent, they will have to take action to remover it or face court action, | Jul 07 16:45 |
| neighborlee | yes and M$ is fighting for such things as we speak | Jul 07 16:45 |
| neighborlee | the great foss supporter..yes they rock dont they | Jul 07 16:45 |
| neighborlee | openxml, ISO, odf,,,shall I go on ? | Jul 07 16:45 |
| neighborlee | so no,,I wont rush 'yet' to accept their divine promise. | Jul 07 16:46 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 07 16:46 |
| neighborlee | oh lets not forget that linux is a cancer. | Jul 07 16:46 |
| neighborlee | :)( | Jul 07 16:47 |
| macabe_ | Microsoft promised not to sue on FAT yet they did. | Jul 07 16:47 |
| neighborlee | exactamongo | Jul 07 16:47 |
| neighborlee | OIN realy came to rescue | Jul 07 16:47 |
| neighborlee | o_) | Jul 07 16:47 |
| BobSprite | where did they promise not to sue on FAT ? | Jul 07 16:48 |
| macabe_ | http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/firmware/fatgen.mspx | Jul 07 16:48 |
| BobSprite | "below, Microsoft grants to you the following non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable," | Jul 07 16:50 |
| BobSprite | see the "Sub-license" there, thats what tomtom did, they broke that agreement. | Jul 07 16:51 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: if you can find alternatives to mono people would accept as alternatives, let me know | Jul 07 16:51 |
| mitsuhiko | macabe_: they promised? | Jul 07 16:52 |
| BobSprite | read that link, it was not MS against the GPL it was MS against TOMTOM for sub-licensing their specification, against the specification agreement. | Jul 07 16:53 |
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| macabe_ | Covenant not to sue kind've sounds like a promise. | Jul 07 16:54 |
| BobSprite | not to sue, as long as you abide by the agreement, if you do not abide by the agreement, they will act against you. | Jul 07 16:55 |
| neighborlee | mitsuhiko, shock..people still use python to make apps,,and to program game ....oh wait c++ hmm a intriguing notion which backs up python...team spirit! | Jul 07 16:55 |
| neighborlee | vala | Jul 07 16:55 |
| BobSprite | It does not say "you can do what you like and we wont sue" | Jul 07 16:55 |
| mitsuhiko | neighborlee: that's not the point | Jul 07 16:56 |
| mitsuhiko | python is doing something completely different than mono | Jul 07 16:56 |
| mitsuhiko | mono is a platform, python is often cpython with a crappy vm | Jul 07 16:56 |
| BobSprite | "(a) Provided that you comply with all terms and conditions of this Agreement and subject to the limitations in Sections 1(c) - (f) below, Microsoft grants to you the following non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free, non-transferable, non-sublicenseable license under any copyrights owned or licensable by Microsoft without payment of consideration to unaffiliated third parties," | Jul 07 16:59 |
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| Darkhack_ | I've been really suspicious of MS lately. Why would they sue over a frivilous patent on an ancient technology like FAT, but be so open about Mono/.NET? | Jul 07 17:00 |
| mitsuhiko | Darkhack_: they just needed something against tomtom | Jul 07 17:02 |
| macabe_ | BobSprite: That is where I'm puzzled with licencing. Microsoft states one thing in bold caps yet modifies the heck out of it in small case. | Jul 07 17:02 |
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| BobSprite | we'll FAT is everywhere, its used in USB sticks and camera's and the like, its probably quite a nice MS money spinner. | Jul 07 17:02 |
| Darkhack_ | Do other companies pay royalties on FAT and TomTom was the exception or were most companies doing like TomTom and not paying for FAT? | Jul 07 17:03 |
| mitsuhiko | Darkhack_: the main culprit was not fat | Jul 07 17:03 |
| neighborlee | Darkhack_, yeah as if,,today we trust m$ with open arms..we aren't all naive. | Jul 07 17:03 |
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| mitsuhiko | tomtom did not pay any licensing fees to microsoft | Jul 07 17:03 |
| mitsuhiko | and microsoft tried to make them pay for more than five years | Jul 07 17:03 |
| BobSprite | and with C# its just a programming language, but the asp.net is a set of library apps and use coded for a specific framework | Jul 07 17:03 |
| neighborlee | perfect world 101 !=current day..not there yet and certainly not by M$'s example. | Jul 07 17:03 |
| neighborlee | so you will excuse anyone that remains cautious I hope | Jul 07 17:04 |
| neighborlee | :) | Jul 07 17:04 |
| BobSprite | if your wait for perfection, you'll live in perpetual dissipointment. | Jul 07 17:04 |
| Darkhack_ | The thing is that I wouldn't necessarily fault someone for accepting Mono... but I do fault them for doing it so openly and easily. Some people in the FOSS community aren't even *slightly* suspicious. | Jul 07 17:04 |
| mitsuhiko | and the tomtom case shows that if you refuse to pay licensing fees *and* refuse to reimplement the affected parts of the software you will be sued | Jul 07 17:04 |
| mitsuhiko | not only by microsoft | Jul 07 17:04 |
| neighborlee | BobSprite, we dont wait..we innnovate | Jul 07 17:05 |
| mitsuhiko | Darkhack_: they just know the risks | Jul 07 17:05 |
| neighborlee | like gnote, vala..yadda | Jul 07 17:05 |
| BobSprite | tell you the truth the state of the art of computer science is well behind that of hardware technology. | Jul 07 17:06 |
| neighborlee | Darkhack_, there is no fault or blame in not knowing risks out of percieved necessity | Jul 07 17:06 |
| neighborlee | Darkhack_, therein comes the part of those who know more and arent afraid to speak out | Jul 07 17:06 |
| BobSprite | c, C++, C# are all still quite primitive, allthough fully OOP languages are getting better. | Jul 07 17:07 |
| Darkhack_ | Primitive in comparison to what? | Jul 07 17:07 |
| BobSprite | what it should be in 2009, take a look at something like LabVIEW, but C# and ADA are starting to improve on things. | Jul 07 17:09 |
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| Darkhack_ | I'd really like to see the EU go after MS for falsely claiming ODF compliance. | Jul 07 17:11 |
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| Ng | Darkhack_: how is that anything to do with the EU?! | Jul 07 18:11 |
| BobSprite | very little, but some see the EU as their sherriff, or stand-over go too guys. | Jul 07 18:30 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @suw Don't ever do these in a short story if you don't want the editor ordering a hit on you. Ever. http://is.gd/1qeqT | Jul 07 19:33 | |
| trmanco | http://skynewshd.streaming.skysports.com/live/skynewshd/ | Jul 07 19:37 |
| trmanco | "Install Microsoft Silverlight" | Jul 07 19:37 |
| trmanco | sure right away... | Jul 07 19:37 |
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| amd-linux | Is Roy back from vacation? | Jul 07 19:41 |
| trmanco | no, not yet | Jul 07 19:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Um gajo já nao pode ver o funeral do Michael Jackson sem ter a merda do sivlerlight agora? -> http://is.gd/1qeXi | Jul 07 19:43 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Ninguem sabe de nenhuma alternativa, de preferencia um stream em OGG? Flash também serve... | Jul 07 19:43 | |
| amd-linux | well, over at Icazas blog, some freaks are really disgusting. I always try to keep discussions non personal but there, they really go below the belt | Jul 07 19:43 |
| _Hicham_ | trmanco : should i install silverlight to see Michael Jackson funerals ? | Jul 07 19:44 |
| trmanco | no | Jul 07 19:45 |
| amd-linux | the MS promise not to sue regarding Mono is such an obvious marketing stunt that even a non-lawyer can see expose | Jul 07 19:46 |
| trmanco | they promised what we already know | Jul 07 19:46 |
| amd-linux | a promise not to sue is worthless when you sell the respective IP.... non binding for a purchaser | Jul 07 19:46 |
| trmanco | C# is a ECMA standard that we already knew | Jul 07 19:47 |
| amd-linux | and it covers only certain versions and only full implementation - I am no GPL expert but that obviously | Jul 07 19:47 |
| amd-linux | collides with GPL | Jul 07 19:47 |
| trmanco | the problem remains with winforms and the rest of patented covered stuff | Jul 07 19:47 |
| amd-linux | what really makes me think is the disgusting tone over there in Icazas blog | Jul 07 19:48 |
| amd-linux | comments are not moderated in which people personally get defamated - if I were attacked, I would sue Icaza | Jul 07 19:49 |
| _Hicham_ | I am still thinking how Icaza can make money from Mono | Jul 07 19:49 |
| amd-linux | he makes money from Novel=Micro-Soft | Jul 07 19:49 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft should have spent really a horrible amount of money to get mono to its current state then | Jul 07 19:50 |
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| amd-linux | well, maybe Icaza really believes in what he says, could be possible. Maybe he is naive enough t believe | Jul 07 19:51 |
| amd-linux | what his contacts at MS sell to him as MS policy | Jul 07 19:51 |
| amd-linux | not seeing that he is a tool for them | Jul 07 19:52 |
| _Hicham_ | no, he can't be naive | Jul 07 19:52 |
| amd-linux | it is sad because he seems to be a talented programmer | Jul 07 19:53 |
| amd-linux | falling prey to the dark side of power | Jul 07 19:53 |
| _Hicham_ | he is very talented in fact | Jul 07 19:54 |
| _Hicham_ | he is in love with Redmond | Jul 07 19:54 |
| amd-linux | no, with some guys in Redmond | Jul 07 19:54 |
| amd-linux | and I am sure that his contacts are honest but they | Jul 07 19:54 |
| amd-linux | do not represent Microsoft | Jul 07 19:55 |
| amd-linux | if things come down, Ballmer will sue and fight with everything he has, even if the .Net guys do not plan any attack | Jul 07 19:55 |
| amd-linux | strange that an intelligent person like Icaza does not see this | Jul 07 19:56 |
| *amarsh04 wonders why wallclimber had trouble with the linux install - maybe problems with the cd drive? | Jul 07 19:58 | |
| amarsh04 | running a soundblaster live and radeon 9200se here myself | Jul 07 19:59 |
| *amarsh04 wonders if any distros are set up to boot an install cd, then get most of the data off a USB drive (for cases when the machine can't boot from USB) | Jul 07 20:00 | |
| amarsh04 | also, it would be interesting to know if Debian Lenny was tried | Jul 07 20:00 |
| amarsh04 | if you have a fast internet connection, a Debian netinstall can be quicker than a cd install | Jul 07 20:01 |
| Mepis still has the fastest install that I know of. | Jul 07 20:02 | |
| It is Debian based again. | Jul 07 20:02 | |
| Mepis is image based with good hardware recognition. If it works off LiveCD, the install takes about 15 minutes. | Jul 07 20:03 | |
| mitsuhiko | amd-linux: probably because he knows how patent laws work | Jul 07 20:03 |
| mitsuhiko | not only that, also because he knows how politics work | Jul 07 20:03 |
| amarsh04 | Debian also release weekly snapshot netinstall images | Jul 07 20:03 |
| Net install is a wonderful thing but configurability comes at the price of decision making time. | Jul 07 20:04 | |
| Once you have Debian installed, it is trivial to duplicate. | Jul 07 20:06 | |
| It is also not difficult to run your own repository. | Jul 07 20:06 | |
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| For a small organization, running your own repository has great advantages, even if all you do is make meta packages. | Jul 07 20:07 | |
| amarsh04 | great for a standard installation for the organisation | Jul 07 20:07 |
| Standard installs. Base + useful packages depending on job. Free software is wonderfully flexible like that. | Jul 07 20:11 | |
| Compare that to license counting and BSA raids you see in the non free software world. Pity the organization that decides who gets what software based on budget constraints rather than business needs. | Jul 07 20:12 | |
| macabe_ | We've been re-imaging a lot of used machines in a community project and the local repository sounds like a good suggestion. | Jul 07 20:13 |
| Hmph, -> migueldeicaza 19 hours ago Facts have never prevented Roy from making something up. That is not about to change. If anything, this will be presented as irrefutable proof of the existence of the body snatchers | Jul 07 20:15 | |
| Kind of contradicts his previous statement -> Astute readers will point out that Mono contains much more than the ECMA standards, and they will be right | Jul 07 20:15 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter is one of the biggest trolls in the world | Jul 07 20:19 |
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| I left Miguel a little comment to that effect. Now, back to work I go. | Jul 07 20:29 | |
| hexx | so ugh, what's going on... is the site coming back online? | Jul 07 20:29 |
| macabe_ | A defeat for software patents in the US is a defeat for software patents worldwide. Please visit http://endsoftpatents.org/donate. | Jul 07 20:31 |
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| SubsonicB | good evening everyone | Jul 07 22:10 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Palin: I can replace Jackson in your hearts http://notnews.today.com/?p=552 | Jul 07 22:13 | |
| SubsonicB | This Palin, I assume: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Palin | Jul 07 22:17 |
| Lns | Zombie moose are cool | Jul 07 22:19 |
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| SubsonicB | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMyNk8J1c8g | Jul 07 22:19 |
| MinceR | impalin' | Jul 07 22:23 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: 100 percent naked, unless you count a tiara as clothing. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/9999.html http://is.gd/1qotB | Jul 07 22:38 | |
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| yuhong | http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/07/microsoft-issues-patent-promise-dispels-mono-concerns.ars | Jul 07 22:49 |
| yuhong | What do you think? | Jul 07 22:49 |
| yuhong | I'd trust IBM's patent promises for Free software more than MS's. | Jul 07 22:50 |
| Ng | I think the community promise reads like a pretty binding legal statement, but I think what you are asking for requires a lawyer, which I am not :) | Jul 07 22:54 |
| Ng | as nothing more than an observer of the whole affair this seems like a win for everyone? | Jul 07 22:55 |
| Ng | the anti-mono people get some kind of clarity on the legal position, the pro-mono people get to tell the anti-mono they can stop whining now ;) | Jul 07 22:56 |
| SubsonicB | "Despite the constant ideological friction between Microsoft and the Linux community, Microsoft is increasingly embracing open source" | Jul 07 22:56 |
| neighborlee | yuhong, if this promise read anything like the bad news the FSF lawyer found in moonlight , then no..from what Im seeing from others its likely in that ballpark..I woud take it aLOT more serious, if MS apologized for its cancer comment,its ooxml overtaking of a standardization document format and in general started acting like a grownup instead of a rich brat...then my head would turn some ;) | Jul 07 22:56 |
| neighborlee | Ng, you can just stop that | Jul 07 22:56 |
| SubsonicB | you know what comes afterwards... extend... extinguish... | Jul 07 22:56 |
| Ng | neighborlee: ? | Jul 07 22:56 |
| blankthemuffin | yuhong, What so an irrevocable, royalty free patent licence is still not good enough? Seems like you guys are in it for the anti-microsoft rather than trying to get it fixed. | Jul 07 22:57 |
| neighborlee | Ng, it wasn't cute the,,and I hate to break the news to you, it aint cute now. | Jul 07 22:57 |
| Ng | neighborlee: what are you talking about? | Jul 07 22:57 |
| neighborlee | Ng, how dare you try to paint everyone with a wide brush | Jul 07 22:57 |
| neighborlee | Ng, who do you think you are ? | Jul 07 22:57 |
| SubsonicB | http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/07/07/i-still-believe-this-is-a-victory-for-microsoft/ | Jul 07 22:57 |
| Ng | neighborlee: oh I'm sorry, did you miss the ";)" on the end of my comment/ | Jul 07 22:58 |
| Ng | -/+? | Jul 07 22:58 |
| neighborlee | Ng, you mean the smiley as you stab the knife in ? | Jul 07 22:58 |
| neighborlee | pff | Jul 07 22:58 |
| Ng | neighborlee: please stop being defensive :) | Jul 07 22:58 |
| neighborlee | hey they were your words, not mine. | Jul 07 22:59 |
| neighborlee | you take them back ? | Jul 07 22:59 |
| Ng | nope | Jul 07 22:59 |
| blankthemuffin | of course it's a victory for microsoft, more people will embrace their programming language. It will be taken seriously as a cross platform language rather than a microsoft only toy. | Jul 07 22:59 |
| neighborlee | then neither do I. | Jul 07 22:59 |
| neighborlee | pfft | Jul 07 22:59 |
| Ng | neighborlee: what cancer comment of microsoft's is preventing you from accepting their legal position, out of interest? | Jul 07 22:59 |
| neighborlee | oh palease get real | Jul 07 22:59 |
| Ng | it's a genuine question, I've not heard of whatever it is you're referring to | Jul 07 22:59 |
| SubsonicB | "Microsoft" and " taken seriously as a cross platform" can't match in the same sentence | Jul 07 23:00 |
| blankthemuffin | Here we go, SubsonicB, another example of hate for no reason. "Oh it's microsoft it must be bad!" | Jul 07 23:00 |
| SubsonicB | hate for no reason? | Jul 07 23:01 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, thats nonsense, and you know it | Jul 07 23:01 |
| SubsonicB | no doubt you were born yesterday. | Jul 07 23:01 |
| yuhong | Agreed that is certainly nonsense. | Jul 07 23:01 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, and we know why you say it | Jul 07 23:01 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, but , you know what ? | Jul 07 23:01 |
| BobSprite | IBM was introuble with anti-trust DoJ people years before MS was ever thought of. | Jul 07 23:01 |
| neighborlee | blankthemuffin, no one is buYING IT | Jul 07 23:01 |
| neighborlee | pfft | Jul 07 23:02 |
| blankthemuffin | They're not in it to advance linux, and why would they be. KDE and Gnome don't talk to each other so they make the other better. They do it so they can work together to get the messy stuff out of the way and focus on the things that matter between their competing systems. | Jul 07 23:02 |
| blankthemuffin | Same with any companies which both implement common standards. | Jul 07 23:02 |
| SubsonicB | the things that matter between their competing systems | Jul 07 23:02 |
| SubsonicB | and those are... | Jul 07 23:02 |
| BobSprite | IBM are in it because they need a cheap OS for their servers. | Jul 07 23:02 |
| Ng | I bet if you ask a lot of KDE and GNOME hackers they'd be perfectly happy to be helping each other get better, but whatever | Jul 07 23:03 |
| SubsonicB | btw: what cross-platform think of any kind has Microsoft EVER produced? | Jul 07 23:03 |
| blankthemuffin | I bet if you ask a lot of Microsoft people they'd be perfectly happy to help each other get better. | Jul 07 23:03 |
| BobSprite | Xinix | Jul 07 23:03 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: they write BASIC interpreters for a fair number of systems | Jul 07 23:03 |
| Ng | s/write/wrote/ | Jul 07 23:03 |
| SubsonicB | sorry think->thing | Jul 07 23:03 |
| BobSprite | FAT | Jul 07 23:03 |
| blankthemuffin | .NET isn't there to be sold, it's to get developers into Windows. Making it easy to get programmers between linux and Windows means that the entry barrier is low and languages / frameworks are taken out of the equation. | Jul 07 23:04 |
| blankthemuffin | .NET SubsonicB. | Jul 07 23:04 |
| SubsonicB | wt-F? | Jul 07 23:04 |
| BobSprite | C and C++, and C# | Jul 07 23:04 |
| SubsonicB | .NET only exists because they shoot themselves in the foot with Microsoft Java | Jul 07 23:05 |
| SubsonicB | they didn't quite succeed at EEEing Java so they had to make up an alternative | Jul 07 23:05 |
| SubsonicB | very similar to what happened with ODF->MSOOXML | Jul 07 23:05 |
| SubsonicB | They could not destroy a competing product that would render their PLATFORM irrelevant so instead they push their own Windows-only alternatives, applying as much ECMA (and twisted-arm ISO) lipstick on the pig as they can | Jul 07 23:08 |
| BobSprite | why hasnt java been ratified by a standards board ? | Jul 07 23:08 |
| Ng | BobSprite: they only ratify things submitted to them for ratification :) | Jul 07 23:09 |
| Ng | Sun want to stay in control of Java | Jul 07 23:09 |
| SubsonicB | What use has a standard nobody can implement without paying for Microsoft patents through the nose | Jul 07 23:09 |
| SubsonicB | ? | Jul 07 23:09 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: ask the samba guys :) | Jul 07 23:09 |
| Ng | they bought the protocol documentation Microsoft was forced to release by the EU, and are making Samba able to completely replace Active Directory, and other people are making libmapi able to replace Exchange | Jul 07 23:10 |
| SubsonicB | Why are you so eager at advancing Microsoft agenda? | Jul 07 23:10 |
| Darkhack_ | When MS stops sueing people over FAT and quits ballot stuffing ISO, I'll take them far more seriously. Until then, approach with caution. | Jul 07 23:10 |
| BobSprite | yes, but if it become popular it becomes a defacto standard and after time its usually accept as industry standard, in this case at least Mono is standard ratified and a undertaking that is very clean | Jul 07 23:11 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: me? I'm not eager at advancing anyone's agenda | Jul 07 23:11 |
| neighborlee | SubsonicB, because if linux embraces it, it embraces windows...and thats good PR | Jul 07 23:11 |
| BobSprite | yes, when people vote they "stuff" their ballots in the box. | Jul 07 23:11 |
| SubsonicB | Why do mono proponents pushing so hard to see mono inserted as *default* in Debian and Ubuntu | Jul 07 23:11 |
| Darkhack_ | Personally, I don't think we should even use Mono for technical reasons alone. Compiled code is always faster and more memory efficient and should be prefered over JITed languages. | Jul 07 23:12 |
| SubsonicB | I would be more than happy that mono is jus an *optional* package | Jul 07 23:12 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: because they really like the applications that they can then ship | Jul 07 23:12 |
| SubsonicB | but that seems to be not good enough for mono proponents | Jul 07 23:12 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: they aren't pro-mono as much as they are pro-Tomboy, pro-Banshee and pro-FSpot | Jul 07 23:12 |
| Ng | to generalise horribly | Jul 07 23:12 |
| BobSprite | I dont think mono proponents actually give a hood when you include or not. | Jul 07 23:12 |
| Darkhack_ | I've thought about porting Banshee or F-Spot to C/C++ just like the one developer did with GNote. | Jul 07 23:12 |
| SubsonicB | I would rather see Debian and Ubuntu mono-free for the time being | Jul 07 23:13 |
| neighborlee | Darkhack_, that or help make gthumb better.. | Jul 07 23:13 |
| SubsonicB | I mena mono-free in the default installation | Jul 07 23:13 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: I think debian said they're not going to ship mono by default | Jul 07 23:13 |
| SubsonicB | *I mean* | Jul 07 23:13 |
| BobSprite | your technical, you can remove it | Jul 07 23:13 |
| neighborlee | Ng, url | Jul 07 23:13 |
| SubsonicB | Debian already ships mono by default in the 1st Gnome CD | Jul 07 23:13 |
| Ng | perhaps I'm wrong, I thought I read a headline about it in my rss reader 8shrug* | Jul 07 23:14 |
| Darkhack_ | I'm using Xfce. It's a lot like Gnome but without the Mono baggage, and I can't see any of the Xfce guys pushing for Mono any time soon. | Jul 07 23:14 |
| SubsonicB | There should be a mono-free *gnome* metapackage and another one called *gnome-plus-mono* so people know what they are installing | Jul 07 23:14 |
| Ng | but ubuntu have certainly said that without a clear and present threat of litigation, or superior technology, the mono apps in the default install are staying there | Jul 07 23:14 |
| SubsonicB | Bad move | Jul 07 23:14 |
| Darkhack_ | I remember a couple years ago, Miguel de Icaza was actually pushing for Gnome developers to write Gnome 3.0 entirely in C | Jul 07 23:14 |
| SubsonicB | Ubuntu resisted the patent rackettering Novell fell into | Jul 07 23:15 |
| Darkhack_ | I remember a couple years ago, Miguel de Icaza was actually pushing for Gnome developers to write Gnome 3.0 entirely in C# using Mono and no C/C++. | Jul 07 23:15 |
| BobSprite | mabey some distro's can see the damage to the GPL is certain GPL'd code is not acceptable just because of who was involved in its development. | Jul 07 23:15 |
| SubsonicB | Ubuntu is a PITA for Microsoft since Dell OEM-installs it | Jul 07 23:15 |
| BobSprite | Meaning your free to contribute to FOSS as long as we think your OK. | Jul 07 23:15 |
| SubsonicB | Microsoft wants Ubuntu with mono inside so it can extort patent royalties to any OEM who ships computer with it installed | Jul 07 23:16 |
| SubsonicB | mark my words | Jul 07 23:16 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: how will they extort patent royalties after their Community Promise thing? I'm not a lawyer, so I don't see the loophole they will use | Jul 07 23:16 |
| BobSprite | well dont use it and dont complain. | Jul 07 23:17 |
| SubsonicB | The community *promise* means NOTHING | Jul 07 23:17 |
| SubsonicB | Its an AD | Jul 07 23:17 |
| Darkhack_ | The problem with Mono is that it still ships with components not covered by ECMA or the community promise. | Jul 07 23:17 |
| BobSprite | so the license does not matter, its just because its MS and you hate MS. | Jul 07 23:17 |
| BobSprite | It would not matter what they did, someone said hear the other day "all MS has to do is issue a statement". | Jul 07 23:18 |
| Darkhack_ | Notice, Microsoft has NEVER said they would promise not to sue Mono. They just mentioned the CLR implementations. They neglet many libraries like Windows.Forms and ASP.NET. | Jul 07 23:18 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: can you actually justify that statement? Like I said, I'm not a lawyer, so I can't objectively give any opinion either way other than to say it reads like a pretty clear statement to me | Jul 07 23:18 |
| Ng | Darkhack_: Miguel said they are addressing that and will split it up so they can ship a pure ECMA core | Jul 07 23:19 |
| Darkhack_ | Ng, I hope so. If that's the case, I would encourage Linux distros to only ship the EMCA core. | Jul 07 23:19 |
| Darkhack_ | *ECMA | Jul 07 23:19 |
| Darkhack_ | sorry, typo. | Jul 07 23:20 |
| SubsonicB | The "promise" is for END USERS (which do not exist in the Free Software world since anyone can pass the rights and freedoms to other, so there is no *FINAL* user, there is not anymore that distinction so handy for the proprietary software corporations between users and developers since the code is available for anyone ) -not BUSINESSES- | Jul 07 23:20 |
| Ng | Darkhack_: by default I'm quite sure they would do exactly that, the non-ECMA Microsoft stuff is (afaik) very uninteresting for running things like Tomboy | Jul 07 23:20 |
| BobSprite | Its like they are giving yoru a good implementation of a language (like C), and you are saying, "sure, but we also want every program ever writing in the new langauage called C". | Jul 07 23:20 |
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| Ng | SubsonicB: IANAL, but I think you've failed to read the first sentence of the CP | Jul 07 23:21 |
| SubsonicB | Ng: Not anymore the mono enthusiast and the Microsoft shills can justify the statement that installing mono by default is *safe* because Microsoft won't sue anyone or extort anyone with secret exclusionary patent deals anymore... | Jul 07 23:21 |
| Darkhack_ | From the community promise page: "The OSP applies directly to all persons or entities that make, use, sell, offer for sale, imports and/or distributes an implementation of a Covered Specification." Doesn't say anything about modify. | Jul 07 23:22 |
| SubsonicB | YANAL but SLFC folks ARE, so they sure know better than both of us. I would rather take their legal counsel rather than MSFT PR people's... | Jul 07 23:23 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: have they said anything about it yet? | Jul 07 23:23 |
| Ng | neighborlee: http://blog.schmehl.info/Debian/tomboy-mono | Jul 07 23:24 |
| SubsonicB | Ng: Would it make any difference for you if they had? | Jul 07 23:24 |
| Ng | SubsonicB: I'd like to hear their qualified opinions, I'd like to hear as many opinions as possible, the more of them being qualified the better :) | Jul 07 23:25 |
| SubsonicB | I insisit that people review this: http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/07/07/i-still-believe-this-is-a-victory-for-microsoft/ | Jul 07 23:26 |
| neighborlee | Ng, nonsense | Jul 07 23:26 |
| neighborlee | Ng, dribble speak | Jul 07 23:26 |
| Ng | neighborlee: ? | Jul 07 23:26 |
| neighborlee | Ng, if it affects 'anyone' it affects us all..spare me the MS speak | Jul 07 23:26 |
| neighborlee | and the lack of concern-0 | Jul 07 23:26 |
| Ng | neighborlee: what exactly are you saying is nonsense? | Jul 07 23:27 |
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| BobSprite | yep, you can break patents with C# and you can just as easily with C, or Assem. | Jul 07 23:33 |
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| macabe_ | how can you break patents with asm? | Jul 07 23:39 |
| SubsonicB | http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/osp-gpl.html | Jul 07 23:39 |
| SubsonicB | macabe, I think he meant you can infringe patented software with about any programming language | Jul 07 23:40 |
| SubsonicB | sw. patents I meant. | Jul 07 23:40 |
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| SubsonicB | software patents aren't about code (copyright law deals with it) but with concepts and ideas (abstract entities) | Jul 07 23:42 |
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