*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 00:03 | |
Mr_Skittlez | wow, its very quiet in here | Jul 23 00:04 |
---|---|---|
Diablo-D3 | yeah, we're busy sacrificing kittens in RMS"s name | Jul 23 00:04 |
Mr_Skittlez | hahaha | Jul 23 00:04 |
oiaohm | Why kittens why not copies of windows we don't need. | Jul 23 00:08 |
Diablo-D3 | because I hate peeling those stickers off | Jul 23 00:08 |
Diablo-D3 | they leave sticky resedue | Jul 23 00:08 |
fewa | and talk about the certificate stickers | Jul 23 00:09 |
Diablo-D3 | that, and I can't find the sticker on my powerbook either | Jul 23 00:09 |
oiaohm | Thing I hate about cerfiticate stickers | Jul 23 00:10 |
Mr_Skittlez | im on windows... just because i had the urge to push the limits of an asus eeepc 1000he | Jul 23 00:10 |
oiaohm | Is they rub off over time. | Jul 23 00:10 |
Mr_Skittlez | oh yeah | Jul 23 00:10 |
oiaohm | ie the ink. | Jul 23 00:10 |
Mr_Skittlez | that sux | Jul 23 00:10 |
oiaohm | MS released a self destructing product. | Jul 23 00:10 |
oiaohm | That then has a self destructing install key. | Jul 23 00:11 |
oiaohm | Nice of them. | Jul 23 00:11 |
Mr_Skittlez | lol | Jul 23 00:12 |
Diablo-D3 | so | Jul 23 00:12 |
Diablo-D3 | self destructing product with a self destructing key by a self destructing company | Jul 23 00:12 |
oiaohm | All it takes would have been a little bit of clear plasic over the paper to stop it from self destructing. | Jul 23 00:12 |
Diablo-D3 | sounds about right | Jul 23 00:12 |
oiaohm | Or a solid plastic token. | Jul 23 00:13 |
oiaohm | Most people are too dumb to see they have been given a self destructing product. | Jul 23 00:13 |
oiaohm | http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/tsera-sues-microsft-apple-and-many-more-over-touchpad-patent-infringement-20090722/ << Hello patent cluster bomb. | Jul 23 00:14 |
Mr_Skittlez | dang, let's all just start sueing everyone for patent infringement | Jul 23 00:16 |
oiaohm | http://www.microsoft.com/Presspass/press/2009/jul09/07-22Windows7RTMPR.mspx Ok windows 7 has entered production stage. | Jul 23 00:19 |
Mr_Skittlez | time to let the pirates do their thing | Jul 23 00:19 |
oiaohm | I expect some people to by windows 7 but I still expect it to be slow. | Jul 23 00:20 |
oiaohm | Lot of us as simply not interested. | Jul 23 00:20 |
fewa | its such a slow release cycle, and so little gets done | Jul 23 00:20 |
oiaohm | I am really not looking forward to windows 7 | Jul 23 00:20 |
oiaohm | A new set of windows bugs to learn. | Jul 23 00:21 |
fewa | more anti-features | Jul 23 00:21 |
Mr_Skittlez | I'd be happy w/ linux if intel released gfix cards w/ good opengl support | Jul 23 00:21 |
oiaohm | I really don't care what one Mr_Skittlez | Jul 23 00:21 |
oiaohm | ATI or Intel. | Jul 23 00:21 |
oiaohm | As long as it works. | Jul 23 00:21 |
oiaohm | I will just buy hardware to match. | Jul 23 00:21 |
oiaohm | I have a few 8 year old machines here that should be replaced. | Jul 23 00:22 |
fewa | Intel stuff works well for basic stuff, support compiz and compositing | Jul 23 00:22 |
Diablo-D3 | I like my radeon | Jul 23 00:22 |
oiaohm | Most of the issue is the new framework. | Jul 23 00:23 |
Mr_Skittlez | well.. I'm on an asus eeepc | Jul 23 00:23 |
oiaohm | DRI2 and KMS and galluim3d. | Jul 23 00:23 |
Mr_Skittlez | and it has a 950gma | Jul 23 00:23 |
*krenso (n=Ro@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 00:23 | |
Mr_Skittlez | so basically, i can do more stuff using d3d than opengl | Jul 23 00:23 |
krenso | hello | Jul 23 00:24 |
Diablo-D3 | not really | Jul 23 00:24 |
oiaohm | Once the low level alterations are done Linux might move away from X11. | Jul 23 00:24 |
Mr_Skittlez | n the 965 had dx10 support but not opengl2 | Jul 23 00:24 |
Mr_Skittlez | but can someone explain how a card can support dx10 but not opengl2 | Jul 23 00:24 |
oiaohm | Hi krenso | Jul 23 00:24 |
Diablo-D3 | btw, wtf do you think your eeepc is supposed to be doing? | Jul 23 00:24 |
Mr_Skittlez | I like to push it | Jul 23 00:24 |
Diablo-D3 | its not like its some 3d power house | Jul 23 00:24 |
krenso | http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6801/2/ Tomboy depends upon, a number of libraries which are 'standard' in the sense that they're under C#'s "System" namespace | Jul 23 00:24 |
Mr_Skittlez | It can run psx emus quite nicely | Jul 23 00:24 |
krenso | but somewhat pointedly excluded from the ECMA specifications. | Jul 23 00:25 |
Mr_Skittlez | and Guild Wars too | Jul 23 00:25 |
Mr_Skittlez | and a few other games | Jul 23 00:25 |
krenso | do you know what libraries tomboy uses, that aren | Jul 23 00:25 |
krenso | 't covered by ecma | Jul 23 00:25 |
krenso | ? | Jul 23 00:25 |
krenso | i found list of mono libraries http://go-mono.com/status/ | Jul 23 00:26 |
krenso | http://mono-project.com/.NET_Framework_Architecture | Jul 23 00:26 |
oiaohm | ecma lists to functions in libraries. | Jul 23 00:27 |
oiaohm | So way more complex krenso | Jul 23 00:27 |
oiaohm | It don't just divide at library level. | Jul 23 00:27 |
thenixedreport | http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/07/oh-where-oh-where-have-agp-slots-gone.html | Jul 23 00:29 |
oiaohm | Basically you would have to go function by function used by tomboy and check that is in ECMA. | Jul 23 00:29 |
oiaohm | gnote is a lot less work to prove patent safe krenso | Jul 23 00:29 |
krenso | oiaohm, i just want to list those libraries on wikipedia | Jul 23 00:31 |
krenso | so others will know | Jul 23 00:31 |
oiaohm | Its also in a mother of a xml file with the standard. | Jul 23 00:32 |
krenso | ok, i have done so far | Jul 23 00:33 |
krenso | git clone git://git.gnome.org/tomboy | Jul 23 00:33 |
krenso | cd tomboy | Jul 23 00:33 |
krenso | grep -ir "using System" * | Jul 23 00:33 |
krenso | here i see link to ecma http://lists.ximian.com/pipermail/mono-list/2004-January/017982.html | Jul 23 00:34 |
krenso | http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma-335-xml.zip | Jul 23 00:35 |
oiaohm | Yep that xml file | Jul 23 00:35 |
oiaohm | lists all the functions from System and the like you are allowed to use to have patent coverage. | Jul 23 00:35 |
oiaohm | If they use 1 function in System that is not listed they are not covered. | Jul 23 00:36 |
oiaohm | Ms has basically made implementing .net a bug. | Jul 23 00:37 |
oiaohm | There is no coverage for future versions of .net and there is no coverage for winforms or asp.net either. | Jul 23 00:37 |
Diablo-D3 | wow, thats lame | Jul 23 00:38 |
Diablo-D3 | I'm glad Im using java | Jul 23 00:38 |
oiaohm | Exactly what I was thinking. | Jul 23 00:39 |
oiaohm | I more use php than java but still. | Jul 23 00:39 |
Diablo-D3 | perl > php AND YOU KNOW IT | Jul 23 00:39 |
oiaohm | Depends. | Jul 23 00:39 |
oiaohm | I could be worse and using perl coverted to C | Jul 23 00:40 |
Diablo-D3 | speed? code reuse? memory usage? | Jul 23 00:40 |
oiaohm | Debuging Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 00:40 |
Diablo-D3 | and the fact fastcgi on perl actually works | Jul 23 00:40 |
Diablo-D3 | oh that too, debugging perl is much easier | Jul 23 00:40 |
oiaohm | No building to test if I have fixed it yet. | Jul 23 00:40 |
Diablo-D3 | I dont need to do that either | Jul 23 00:41 |
oiaohm | java down side is its bytecode. | Jul 23 00:41 |
Diablo-D3 | java's upside is it's bytecode too | Jul 23 00:41 |
oiaohm | Not really. | Jul 23 00:41 |
Diablo-D3 | compile once run on your mom. | Jul 23 00:41 |
oiaohm | AOT on a script would give equal performance. | Jul 23 00:41 |
Diablo-D3 | yes, but, I hate php | Jul 23 00:42 |
oiaohm | Each to there own. | Jul 23 00:42 |
oiaohm | python web pages are warped. | Jul 23 00:42 |
Diablo-D3 | python * is warped | Jul 23 00:43 |
Diablo-D3 | so is RoR | Jul 23 00:43 |
oiaohm | The bytecode was a good middle step until we started getting better compliers. | Jul 23 00:43 |
oiaohm | And faster cpus. | Jul 23 00:43 |
krenso | unzip Ecma-335-xml.zip | Jul 23 00:43 |
Diablo-D3 | but its still great for not having to compile lots of times | Jul 23 00:44 |
krenso | grep -i 'Type Name="' CLILibraryTypes.xml | Jul 23 00:44 |
oiaohm | bytecode had it place in the under 600 mhz. | Jul 23 00:44 |
Diablo-D3 | I can create a linux "binary" and it runs on all linuxes, not just ia32+amd64 | Jul 23 00:44 |
Diablo-D3 | not only that, hotspot can runtime optimize the program based on usage | Jul 23 00:44 |
oiaohm | There are ways to hotspot native code. | Jul 23 00:45 |
Diablo-D3 | yes, but it sucks | Jul 23 00:45 |
*Amicus_curious has quit ("Page closed") | Jul 23 00:45 | |
Diablo-D3 | and lets say python switches to llvm | Jul 23 00:45 |
Diablo-D3 | all they're doing is javaing the problem. | Jul 23 00:45 |
oiaohm | Not really. | Jul 23 00:45 |
Diablo-D3 | compile to bytecode, optimize the hell out of it | Jul 23 00:45 |
oiaohm | llvm allows hotspotting on native code. | Jul 23 00:45 |
Diablo-D3 | llvm's internal representation is bytecode | Jul 23 00:46 |
oiaohm | All compliers these days have a internal bytecode of optimizing. | Jul 23 00:46 |
oiaohm | Including gcc | Jul 23 00:46 |
Diablo-D3 | gcc kinda sucks though | Jul 23 00:46 |
Diablo-D3 | llvm was designed as the new gcc backend, and politics killed gcc | Jul 23 00:46 |
oiaohm | Not realy. | Jul 23 00:46 |
oiaohm | gcc is a mess internally. | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | yes, and llvm solved a lot of that mess in the backend | Jul 23 00:47 |
oiaohm | clean up has taken ages. | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | its also faster, smarter, and applicable to things not gcc | Jul 23 00:47 |
oiaohm | llvm has been working on building new front ends. | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | no, apple has | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | apple has a prototype gcc replacement that uses llvm | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | compiles c, c++, and objc | Jul 23 00:47 |
Diablo-D3 | its already powerful enough to compile dragonbsd's kernel and basic userland | Jul 23 00:47 |
oiaohm | Gcc frount ends use directly by passes the bytecode and talk straight to the back end. | Jul 23 00:48 |
Diablo-D3 | you can do that with llvm too | Jul 23 00:48 |
oiaohm | Really. | Jul 23 00:48 |
Diablo-D3 | you dont have to deal with llvm's internal representation | Jul 23 00:48 |
Diablo-D3 | llvm has stuff for that | Jul 23 00:48 |
oiaohm | All the nightmares of gcc are caused by that. | Jul 23 00:48 |
Diablo-D3 | what Im saying is llvm has an API to directly talk to it | Jul 23 00:49 |
Diablo-D3 | it internally generates bytecode | Jul 23 00:49 |
Diablo-D3 | but you never see it and never have to deal with it | Jul 23 00:49 |
oiaohm | Frount end should not be sending instructions out of line with optimisers. | Jul 23 00:49 |
oiaohm | Other wise optimisers can make major goofs. | Jul 23 00:49 |
Diablo-D3 | llvm _is_ the optimizer | Jul 23 00:49 |
Diablo-D3 | llvm is the low level optimizer | Jul 23 00:50 |
Diablo-D3 | optimization is a two stage process | Jul 23 00:50 |
oiaohm | Like the recent one removing if statements incorrectly. | Jul 23 00:50 |
oiaohm | In the Linux kernel. | Jul 23 00:50 |
Diablo-D3 | you optimize all the high level stuff, llvm optimizes all the low level stuff | Jul 23 00:50 |
Diablo-D3 | you talk to llvm using a machine code-like bytecode language. | Jul 23 00:50 |
oiaohm | Same as gcc. | Jul 23 00:50 |
*conley has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 00:50 | |
Diablo-D3 | yup, just like gcc | Jul 23 00:50 |
Diablo-D3 | just like most compilers | Jul 23 00:50 |
oiaohm | The goof in gcc recently. | Jul 23 00:50 |
Diablo-D3 | the frontend obviously should not be generating machine code itself | Jul 23 00:51 |
oiaohm | was causes by front end being able to send instructions to the back end that the optimise could not see. | Jul 23 00:51 |
Diablo-D3 | it can generate hints, sure | Jul 23 00:51 |
oiaohm | So the back end altered something. | Jul 23 00:51 |
Diablo-D3 | yeah, thats just bad design | Jul 23 00:51 |
oiaohm | That the optimiser was depend on. | Jul 23 00:51 |
Diablo-D3 | the low level optimizer should not be out-thought | Jul 23 00:52 |
*conley (n=conley@c-69-255-117-144.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 00:52 | |
Diablo-D3 | I wonder who let that patch in | Jul 23 00:52 |
oiaohm | Front end should have no way to by pass optimiser. | Jul 23 00:52 |
Diablo-D3 | yeah exactly | Jul 23 00:52 |
Diablo-D3 | the front end should talk to the backend, period | Jul 23 00:52 |
Diablo-D3 | not specific parts of it bypassing others | Jul 23 00:52 |
oiaohm | Frontend to optimiser | Jul 23 00:53 |
oiaohm | To backend. | Jul 23 00:53 |
oiaohm | No other path. | Jul 23 00:53 |
Diablo-D3 | the backend optimizer is part of the backend | Jul 23 00:53 |
oiaohm | backend that makes native platform bits. | Jul 23 00:53 |
Diablo-D3 | thats part of the backend too =P | Jul 23 00:53 |
Diablo-D3 | the backend also has multiple stages | Jul 23 00:53 |
oiaohm | Its really 3 parts. | Jul 23 00:53 |
oiaohm | optimistion is part frontend part backend. | Jul 23 00:54 |
Diablo-D3 | frontend = { syntax parser, high level optimization, bytecode creation } | Jul 23 00:54 |
Diablo-D3 | backend = { bytecode parsing, low level optimization, machine code production } | Jul 23 00:54 |
Diablo-D3 | thats how its supposed to work. | Jul 23 00:54 |
oiaohm | Central optmiser processed the bytecode removing lots of stuff. | Jul 23 00:54 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: see above | Jul 23 00:54 |
oiaohm | Before the bytecode it passed to backend for native output. | Jul 23 00:54 |
Diablo-D3 | thats how a sanly designed compiler works | Jul 23 00:55 |
oiaohm | Basicaly its become 3 stages. | Jul 23 00:55 |
Diablo-D3 | its 2 stages | Jul 23 00:55 |
oiaohm | The bytecode processing stage is a new stage. | Jul 23 00:55 |
Diablo-D3 | it just has complex stages with stages of their own | Jul 23 00:55 |
Diablo-D3 | but its still frontend/backend | Jul 23 00:55 |
Diablo-D3 | frontend is everything to do with the language | Jul 23 00:55 |
Diablo-D3 | backend is everything to do with the machine | Jul 23 00:56 |
Diablo-D3 | theres no middle step | Jul 23 00:56 |
oiaohm | But the bytecode stage is language independant and machine independant for a block of processing. | Jul 23 00:56 |
Diablo-D3 | with bytecode oriented languages, theres a "middle step" that just stores/retrieves the bytecode | Jul 23 00:56 |
oiaohm | Like loop solving. | Jul 23 00:56 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: "no" | Jul 23 00:56 |
oiaohm | And static state solving. | Jul 23 00:56 |
Diablo-D3 | you have to loop solve twice | Jul 23 00:56 |
Diablo-D3 | unrolling loops is part of the language | Jul 23 00:57 |
Diablo-D3 | er, front end | Jul 23 00:57 |
Diablo-D3 | at least, it should be | Jul 23 00:57 |
Diablo-D3 | I have no clue how gcc does it | Jul 23 00:57 |
*sebsebseb () has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 00:57 | |
oiaohm | gcc unrolling is language independant | Jul 23 00:57 |
Diablo-D3 | yes, but that doesnt mean its not part of the frontend | Jul 23 00:57 |
oiaohm | Front end does not bother with it. | Jul 23 00:57 |
krenso | ok, i have found this list http://mono-project.com/Libraries | Jul 23 00:58 |
Diablo-D3 | if gcc has gone into three stages, its doing it really wrong | Jul 23 00:58 |
krenso | after grepping tomboy source, i can't say what exactly libraries it uses | Jul 23 00:58 |
Diablo-D3 | krenso: look for all the use statements | Jul 23 00:58 |
oiaohm | Mostly because unrolling of C and C++ and Java ... and many other langauges are basically the same Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 00:58 |
krenso | because there is often "using System;" | Jul 23 00:58 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: yup, but that would be exposed as a generic language "library" that plugs into frontends | Jul 23 00:59 |
Diablo-D3 | so common tasks can be shares | Jul 23 00:59 |
krenso | so i think there should be deeper look at functions | Jul 23 00:59 |
Diablo-D3 | krenso: you can only using System; for things that are in System | Jul 23 00:59 |
oiaohm | also gcc is design to accept bytecode input for merging two bytecodes into 1 Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 00:59 |
Diablo-D3 | .net splits bigger chunks out | Jul 23 00:59 |
Diablo-D3 | you you specifically have to load them | Jul 23 00:59 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: meh | Jul 23 01:00 |
oiaohm | Where unrolling between bytecodes still would have to be performed Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 01:00 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: lets go back to the part where I said java is awesome | Jul 23 01:00 |
Diablo-D3 | because it is | Jul 23 01:00 |
oiaohm | Java split it into 3 too. | Jul 23 01:00 |
Diablo-D3 | enough | Jul 23 01:00 |
krenso | What is in system? | Jul 23 01:00 |
Diablo-D3 | no more talking about optimization | Jul 23 01:00 |
Diablo-D3 | krenso: the small boring shit | Jul 23 01:01 |
krenso | not all other libraries? | Jul 23 01:01 |
krenso | is system covered by ecma? | Jul 23 01:01 |
Diablo-D3 | I would hope so | Jul 23 01:01 |
Diablo-D3 | for example, Object is in system | Jul 23 01:01 |
oiaohm | some of. | Jul 23 01:01 |
oiaohm | Not all of system. | Jul 23 01:01 |
oiaohm | Never versions of .net added extra functions to system. | Jul 23 01:01 |
Diablo-D3 | I hate how .net has an illogically split base library | Jul 23 01:01 |
oiaohm | I can see llvm waking up there will have to move unrolling back to common. | Jul 23 01:02 |
krenso | so if some files has line using System; i have to search all it functions and check from which library it is? | Jul 23 01:03 |
krenso | so far i get this list http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what-non-ecma-libraries-tomboy-is-using/ | Jul 23 01:03 |
oiaohm | The 3 stage comes from intel and suns complier designs that allowed prebuild dyanmic files to be turned into static. Diablo-D3. | Jul 23 01:03 |
Diablo-D3 | whatever | Jul 23 01:04 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: Im not writing a compiler | Jul 23 01:04 |
Diablo-D3 | as long as the shit works fast, I dont care | Jul 23 01:04 |
oiaohm | dynamic binary to static binary conversion is nice. | Jul 23 01:05 |
oiaohm | Also the means to patch binaries that some of the closed have. | Jul 23 01:06 |
oiaohm | Is that a list of things not in the Ecma krenso in tomboy | Jul 23 01:09 |
krenso | No, it is list of libraries that Tomboy is using | Jul 23 01:10 |
Diablo-D3 | krenso: hey | Jul 23 01:10 |
krenso | excluding "using System;" | Jul 23 01:10 |
Diablo-D3 | you may want to grep for something like Foo*( | Jul 23 01:10 |
oiaohm | System.Windows.Forms << 100 percent not krenso | Jul 23 01:10 |
Diablo-D3 | where foo is things in System | Jul 23 01:10 |
oiaohm | That is no covered by the ECMA | Jul 23 01:11 |
oiaohm | System.Xml.XPath also not. | Jul 23 01:11 |
oiaohm | Hmm they cannot read there safe file how nice. | Jul 23 01:11 |
*Mr_Skittlez (n=Administ@c-24-0-20-184.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has left #boycottnovell | Jul 23 01:12 | |
oiaohm | System.Xml.Xsl | Jul 23 01:12 |
oiaohm | System.Xml is there so major rewirte fun krenso | Jul 23 01:13 |
oiaohm | System.Web is also not there so no sync with webservers either krenso | Jul 23 01:14 |
oiaohm | As soon as you remove the bits that are not covered tomboy is less functional than gnote. | Jul 23 01:14 |
oiaohm | System.Security.Cryptography no encryption either. Hopefully you have no private notes. | Jul 23 01:15 |
oiaohm | System.Runtime.Remoting is also not there. | Jul 23 01:17 |
oiaohm | I think that should be a good enough start krenso | Jul 23 01:18 |
oiaohm | Its basically busted. | Jul 23 01:18 |
krenso | i have updated post | Jul 23 01:18 |
oiaohm | I did not do the full list. | Jul 23 01:18 |
oiaohm | I just picked out the bits I suspected most not to be there. | Jul 23 01:19 |
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 01:30 | |
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 23 01:44 | |
thenixedreport | Darn. | Jul 23 01:48 |
thenixedreport | Roy's not there. | Jul 23 01:48 |
thenixedreport | :) | Jul 23 01:48 |
Diablo-D3 | roy is everywhere | Jul 23 01:48 |
Diablo-D3 | he is all knowning | Jul 23 01:48 |
Diablo-D3 | ROY IS GOD | Jul 23 01:49 |
Diablo-D3 | ALL WORSHIP THE ALMIGHTY ROY | Jul 23 01:49 |
Diablo-D3 | I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy! | Jul 23 01:49 |
*crunchy135711 has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]") | Jul 23 01:59 | |
*krenso has quit ("Leaving") | Jul 23 02:06 | |
*Balrog_ has quit () | Jul 23 02:13 | |
thenixedreport | Sorry. | Jul 23 02:23 |
thenixedreport | RMS is my god. | Jul 23 02:23 |
thenixedreport | And I have been saved by the Church of Emacs. | Jul 23 02:23 |
thenixedreport | Though to be honest, I do like the graphical interface for Emacs. | Jul 23 02:24 |
A heretic. There are no gods in the church of emacs. | Jul 23 02:30 | |
and I'd hope you are honest all the time | Jul 23 02:31 | |
thenixedreport | lol | Jul 23 03:01 |
thenixedreport | He said "yet" | Jul 23 03:01 |
thenixedreport | :) | Jul 23 03:01 |
thenixedreport | Anyhoo. | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | :) | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | Thanks to a friend of mine, I may have fixed my Phenom 9600 problem. | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | 64-bit systems would crash or just freeze. | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | I turned TLB Fix off. | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | And it hasn't froze yet. | Jul 23 03:02 |
thenixedreport | :D | Jul 23 03:02 |
*tkmorris (n=unknown@201-10-22-16.paemt704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 03:11 | |
*conley has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 03:40 | |
*Trials (n=teddy2@CPE-139-168-68-33.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 04:09 | |
*wayne has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 04:21 | |
*notzed has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 04:59 | |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip68-230-37-218.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 05:16 | |
wallclimber | After a lot of thought, today, and after having a conversation with a distinctly dislike-able Gnome person, I've decided to no longer use Gnome. I'm downloading Kubuntu and Mandriva right now. Any other suggestions of KDE distros to try? | Jul 23 05:24 |
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Jul 23 05:26 | |
*wayne (n=teddy2@58.167.60.140) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 05:37 | |
wallclimber | I'm downloading Kubuntu and Mandriva right now. Any other suggestions of KDE distros to try? | Jul 23 05:40 |
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 05:41 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Public debate launches the Canadian DMCA http://bit.ly/10wZky Why not the #ACTA ? | Jul 23 05:48 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Churches, mosques: broadband beyond luxury, a critical public utility necessary for public discourse http://is.gd/1Ia6C http://is.gd/1Ia7x | Jul 23 05:48 | |
*Trials has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 05:50 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard this is it http://bit.ly/b8WXq | Jul 23 05:50 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apollo 11 Produces Free Software http://ping.fm/mPtyE | Jul 23 06:00 | |
*Lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-4a9f5ec6067bbf40) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 06:11 | |
Lefty_ | Hm. Quiet here, too. | Jul 23 06:11 |
Lefty_ | Have I been discouraging you folks? | Jul 23 06:11 |
Lefty_ | I wanted to see how WIlly | Jul 23 06:11 |
Lefty_ | is doing with his dossier. | Jul 23 06:11 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenOffice Renaissance Shows Future Directions http://ping.fm/jDXLn | Jul 23 06:11 | |
Lefty_ | see if he had any quiestions he wanted to ask. | Jul 23 06:12 |
Lefty_ | So, Roy, is it true that you're _afraid_ to go to conferences? | Jul 23 06:12 |
Lefty_ | I've gotta tell you, Roy, the polite debate thing is fine with me, but I think it'skilling your core constituency. | Jul 23 06:13 |
Lefty_ | oh, and thanks for all the nice quotes from the IRC log on Sunday,desu! | Jul 23 06:14 |
Lefty_ | Helps prove my point about "sexism in the community". | Jul 23 06:14 |
Lefty_ | you guys are a great "bad example". | Jul 23 06:14 |
Lefty_ | oh--you might want to check out my latest blog post, if you haven't yet. | Jul 23 06:15 |
Lefty_ | seems like it gave mono-nono Jason a kind of conniption. | Jul 23 06:15 |
Lefty_ | Roy, did that comment of yours about "Penguin Pete" get back to him yet...? | Jul 23 06:16 |
Lefty_ | you do have this bad habit of talking smack about people behind their backs... | Jul 23 06:16 |
Lefty_ | He probably talks about _you_ guys behind _your_ backs... =D | Jul 23 06:18 |
Lefty_ | Hey, here's an interesting story: http://edward.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms | Jul 23 06:22 |
Lefty_ | Some developer who was working on EMACS with RMS had a baby right around the time that RMS wanted a lot of code refactored.... | Jul 23 06:22 |
Lefty_ | Other people on the project congratulated him on the birth... | Jul 23 06:23 |
Lefty_ | RMS wrote " It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill. That is really something to be proud of. It helps more people, too." | Jul 23 06:23 |
Lefty_ | So, when Jose suggests that I should have written him "differently", I'm skeptical that I would have gotten a different result. | Jul 23 06:24 |
Lefty_ | I want you bozos to note that I have _not_ blasted this far and wide. | Jul 23 06:25 |
Lefty_ | which sort of blows a hole in your thesis that I''m "out to get RMS" by any means, I suppose. | Jul 23 06:25 |
Lefty_ | Them's the breaks, boys. | Jul 23 06:25 |
*twitter (n=willhill@97-113-221-139.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 06:33 | |
Gnomes say, "Hi, Bill" http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1911626,00.html?cnn=yes | Jul 23 06:34 | |
Time. | Jul 23 06:35 | |
a troll -> The gnome's creator, German artist Ottmar Hörl, says he never intended to offend anyone, and can't understand what all the fuss is about. | Jul 23 06:36 | |
Wait, it's rather rich -> Each of the gnomes has the word poisoned inscribed at its base. "People everywhere in the world can be ideologically poisoned, just as Germans were by the Nazis," says Hörl. | Jul 23 06:37 | |
Poisoned Gnome! | Jul 23 06:37 | |
MinceR | "German criminal law, which forbids the use of symbols from unconstitutional organizations" -- i hope they forbid the use of symbols that were left over from monarchy :> | Jul 23 06:40 |
no pictures of GWB please. | Jul 23 06:41 | |
MinceR | :D | Jul 23 06:41 |
Bush watches his family http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_pl823 | Jul 23 06:43 | |
*sebsebseb has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 07:06 | |
*thenixedreport has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jul 23 07:08 | |
*tkmorris has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 07:19 | |
Lefty_ | Oh, tjhere's the fellow I've been wanting to see! | Jul 23 07:28 |
Lefty_ | Mr. Hil! | Jul 23 07:29 |
Lefty_ | I gather you're putting together some sort of dossier on me? | Jul 23 07:29 |
Lefty_ | I haven't gone back through the IRC logs to see exactly what "as much as you could find" you dumped in here a few days ago. | Jul 23 07:30 |
Lefty_ | want to share? | Jul 23 07:30 |
Lefty_ | or do yo have any questions? | Jul 23 07:30 |
Lefty_ | Huh, I guess posting that stuff from the other day must've embarassed you guys or something... | Jul 23 07:32 |
Lefty_ | maybe you're just feeling demoralized.... | Jul 23 07:32 |
*Trials (n=teddy2@58.166.95.131) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 07:40 | |
*wayne has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 07:54 | |
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.113.3.160.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 08:27 | |
*notzed (n=notzed@ppp121-45-181-181.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 08:43 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Are we not due for some figures from #Microsoft ? Lets see what sort of spin can be put on that... Heres to waiting. #windows #vista #xp | Jul 23 08:47 | |
*crunchy135711 (n=chatzill@dslb-084-062-045-178.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 09:05 | |
Trials | MS figues are going to be down, just after the development of their next flagship product but before the release of it, and in this depressed market. Its hard for it to be anything else but down. | Jul 23 09:26 |
Diablo-D3 | I agree with Trials | Jul 23 09:27 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft is going to have bad numbers | Jul 23 09:27 |
*magentar (n=magentar@ip-95-223-204-25.unitymediagroup.de) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 09:41 | |
*thenixedreport (n=thomas@75.134.39.205) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 09:45 | |
thenixedreport | @Lefty_: Penguin Pete actually libelled Ken Starks over Tux500. | Jul 23 09:51 |
thenixedreport | You may want to do some research into that. | Jul 23 09:52 |
thenixedreport | PP also quashes criticism if it's heavy enough by deleting comments. | Jul 23 09:52 |
thenixedreport | I've got the screenshots to prove it. | Jul 23 09:55 |
thenixedreport | He's only "standing up" for Roy to drive traffic to his blog. | Jul 23 09:55 |
Diablo-D3 | thenixedreport: thats a brilliant idea | Jul 23 10:00 |
Diablo-D3 | wait, hold up, no it aint | Jul 23 10:00 |
Diablo-D3 | I stood up for java vs c# | Jul 23 10:01 |
Diablo-D3 | and the only traffic I got was a bunch of fucktards and microsoft shills | Jul 23 10:01 |
Diablo-D3 | Im not sure if I want that sort of traffic | Jul 23 10:01 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Are Speakers for FOSS Actually FOSS Supporters? http://ping.fm/I29Dg | Jul 23 10:10 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Self-serving, Lockin-oriented GPL Code from Microsoft http://ping.fm/yQndt | Jul 23 10:35 | |
crunchy135711 | have there been any suggestions to fork gnome into a mono free branch? | Jul 23 10:36 |
Ng | wouldn't that be exactly the same, just with tomboy removed? | Jul 23 10:39 |
crunchy135711 | not sure, but the number of apps like tomboy is growing | Jul 23 10:40 |
crunchy135711 | as far as I understand the idea is to slowly shift whole of gnome to mono | Jul 23 10:41 |
Ng | tomboy is the only Mono based app in the official GNOME module list | Jul 23 10:41 |
Ng | http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/Desktop | Jul 23 10:41 |
Ng | some distributions choose to change that list or add things to it, which may include mono apps, but that's nothing to do with GNOME per-se | Jul 23 10:42 |
Ng | crunchy135711: where do you have that understanding from? most of the core gnome developers are very firmly wedded to C/Vala | Jul 23 10:43 |
*tacone (n=Adium@151.81.30.69) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 11:06 | |
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 11:07 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz yeah. linux av scanners are useful to protect windows boxes on the same network. but clamav is plenty good enough. | Jul 23 11:32 | |
*Diablo-D3 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Jul 23 11:33 | |
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 11:38 | |
*amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-147-46.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 11:49 | |
fewa | im always amazed how all these GNOME C apps can be such resource hogs | Jul 23 11:53 |
fewa | all the little applets use like 15-20MB of RAM and tend to burn CPU | Jul 23 11:54 |
crunchy135711 | isnt kde even worse in this regard? | Jul 23 11:54 |
fewa | idk | Jul 23 11:55 |
Ng | fewa: it's surprisingly hard to get a good answer of how much memory something is using, but there is certainly room for improvement | Jul 23 12:01 |
fewa | not really | Jul 23 12:01 |
fewa | install htop | Jul 23 12:01 |
Ng | which columns are you looking at though? :) | Jul 23 12:01 |
fewa | RES and SHR | Jul 23 12:01 |
fewa | cant get virt memory used | Jul 23 12:02 |
Ng | fewa: are you sure you know what RES means? :) | Jul 23 12:04 |
fewa | KDE4 default on fedora amd64 seems much better than gnome | Jul 23 12:04 |
fewa | well how do i get something better? | Jul 23 12:05 |
fewa | what about TRS, DRS, LRS and DT ? | Jul 23 12:05 |
fewa | cause SIZE is obviously just what has been mapped but not neccicarily been used | Jul 23 12:06 |
fewa | resident is still important | Jul 23 12:06 |
fewa | and GNOME apps often use 15MB RES | Jul 23 12:06 |
Ng | RES includes bits of SHR | Jul 23 12:07 |
fewa | ahh well share is generally useless unless you notice a multiprocessor app is using it | Jul 23 12:08 |
fewa | lets you correct how much ram the total is using | Jul 23 12:09 |
Ng | SHR means shared objects, so mostly that's going to be libraries | Jul 23 12:09 |
Ng | but the pages of those libraries that a process cares about, will be included in its RES count afair | Jul 23 12:09 |
Ng | and VIRT includes the entire address space of the process, so it's completely useless as a number ;) | Jul 23 12:10 |
fewa | i know that | Jul 23 12:11 |
fewa | ie SIZE | Jul 23 12:11 |
fewa | meh kde4 seems a little better on the rediculous ram used applets, xcept for kde's printer-applet which has 17 MB RES | Jul 23 12:12 |
fewa | while GNOME mixer_applet2: 17, update-notifier: 15, gnome-power-manager: 13, gnome-volume-control-applet: 11, gnome-session: 9, seahorse-daemon: 7 | Jul 23 12:13 |
Ng | if I add up the RSS column from ps I get 1326128 on my running system, but free shows I only have 1076552 bytes of memory being used for things that aren't buffers/cache, so there's 300MB in the RSS column that's being shared among the processes | Jul 23 12:13 |
fewa | seahorse-agent: 6 | Jul 23 12:14 |
fewa | i guess alot of this could be glib shared stuff | Jul 23 12:14 |
Ng | yup | Jul 23 12:14 |
fewa | maybe ~5/process | Jul 23 12:14 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Linux Did Not Need Microsoft’s Code Injection http://ping.fm/THXqx | Jul 23 12:14 | |
fewa | ever tried to use GNOME or KDE4 on a 256MB system? | Jul 23 12:15 |
fewa | but i guess there are not many of those left... | Jul 23 12:15 |
Ng | nope :) | Jul 23 12:16 |
Ng | I don't really care about old, low power systems. nobody has taken the old code away from those people | Jul 23 12:16 |
fewa | even on 1GB its quite constrained | Jul 23 12:16 |
Ng | if RH5 ran fine on such a system, run RH5 on it | Jul 23 12:16 |
fewa | i run debian w/ lxde | Jul 23 12:17 |
Ng | by far the largest memory users I have are my browser and mail client, and that will always be true | Jul 23 12:17 |
fewa | I dont see why we should put our resources into the chrome | Jul 23 12:17 |
fewa | it should be for the real apps | Jul 23 12:17 |
fewa | mail client? | Jul 23 12:17 |
fewa | that should be all cache | Jul 23 12:17 |
crunchy135711 | ng - thunderbird? | Jul 23 12:17 |
crunchy135711 | I use it, and dont get why it nees 100 mb | Jul 23 12:18 |
*fewa uses evolution | Jul 23 12:18 | |
*fewa doesnt like thunderbird | Jul 23 12:19 | |
crunchy135711 | why not | Jul 23 12:19 |
fewa | its doesnt like plain text | Jul 23 12:19 |
Ng | crunchy135711: yep, I have thunderbird talking to three IMAP accounts with several gigs of mail, so I don't really feel it's being unreasonable by having a large RAM footprint ;) | Jul 23 12:20 |
trmanco | waht? | Jul 23 12:20 |
trmanco | thunderbird loves plain text | Jul 23 12:21 |
trmanco | evolution's html engine is pure crap compared to thunderbird's btw | Jul 23 12:22 |
fewa | well of course | Jul 23 12:22 |
fewa | its got xulrunner | Jul 23 12:22 |
fewa | but they are going to switch evolution over to gtk-webkit | Jul 23 12:22 |
Ng | they've only just ported evolution off bonobo ;) | Jul 23 12:23 |
trmanco | Firefox 3.6 will come by the end of tis year as a major update to FF 3.5 | Jul 23 12:24 |
trmanco | they should have changed to webkit long ago | Jul 23 12:24 |
fewa | 3.5 already was a big update | Jul 23 12:24 |
fewa | they would have to give up MPL then | Jul 23 12:25 |
trmanco | I'm talking about evolution | Jul 23 12:26 |
fewa | ahh yes | Jul 23 12:27 |
fewa | that makes more sense | Jul 23 12:27 |
trmanco | :-P | Jul 23 12:28 |
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@58.179.79.70) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 12:32 | |
oiaohm | http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/News/Microsoft-Releases-Moodle-Plugin-under-GPL << Anyone else getting the feeling MS is desperate. | Jul 23 12:36 |
crunchy135711 | not sure about desperate :) | Jul 23 12:37 |
crunchy135711 | they still have 90% of the market | Jul 23 12:38 |
fewa | crunchy135711, really? | Jul 23 12:38 |
fewa | i mean, you sure? | Jul 23 12:38 |
crunchy135711 | http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share.php | Jul 23 12:39 |
fewa | what makes you believe their numbers? | Jul 23 12:39 |
crunchy135711 | I have seen similar numbers elsewhere | Jul 23 12:40 |
fewa | even microsoft's nubers are differnt http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_Apple | Jul 23 12:40 |
fewa | and all of these numbers are desktops only | Jul 23 12:40 |
crunchy135711 | ballmer means the server market I think | Jul 23 12:41 |
crunchy135711 | yes | Jul 23 12:41 |
fewa | no "Economic effect on home and business PC's" | Jul 23 12:41 |
fewa | those are desktops | Jul 23 12:41 |
Trials | those figures seem about right with others and personal experience | Jul 23 12:41 |
fewa | look at the graphc | Jul 23 12:41 |
fewa | *graph | Jul 23 12:41 |
oiaohm | Ebox a server distribution is now looking at desktop intergration with ubuntu that will make the process of deploying Ubuntu desktops simpler. | Jul 23 12:42 |
oiaohm | Once ads lands for samba there is going to be a nice battle. | Jul 23 12:42 |
oiaohm | Also why its funny with the moodle plugin is openchange is planing to have the first demo of a really basic exchange clone. | Jul 23 12:58 |
*ugufjhfj (n=ugufjhfj@modemcable213.226-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 13:02 | |
*Lefty_ has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) | Jul 23 13:18 | |
*conley (n=conley@c-69-255-117-144.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 13:20 | |
*ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jul 23 13:32 | |
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 23 13:55 | |
*popey (n=alan@ubuntu/member/pdpc.gold.popey) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 14:02 | |
*pk (n=pk@cpc3-broo3-0-0-cust242.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 14:18 | |
schestowitz | oiaohm: not desperate (Microsoft) | Jul 23 14:34 |
schestowitz | Think of it as plan B | Jul 23 14:34 |
schestowitz | fewa says it right | Jul 23 14:34 |
schestowitz | What I said last year (or 2007) about using Xen/VMs in general as a gateway | Jul 23 14:34 |
schestowitz | Microsoft is putting a hook in Linux with which to demote Linux | Jul 23 14:35 |
fewa | They want to control the hardware side of Linux through virtualization | Jul 23 14:35 |
schestowitz | Remember: it's PART OF THE DEAL WITH NOVEL | Jul 23 14:35 |
schestowitz | Look under "virtualization" [sic] | Jul 23 14:35 |
fewa | Xen + (now) HV | Jul 23 14:35 |
schestowitz | ALso VMware | Jul 23 14:35 |
schestowitz | Imagine people having to buy servers with SLES of Windows | Jul 23 14:35 |
schestowitz | Lenovo already does that | Jul 23 14:36 |
schestowitz | And you get Linux running under Windows | Jul 23 14:36 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: tonight should be good for Linux morale | Jul 23 14:36 |
schestowitz | Microsoft will spin somehow. DOn't let them get away with it | Jul 23 14:36 |
schestowitz | Also, don't expect them to use the "L" worl. | Jul 23 14:36 |
schestowitz | They'll blame economy|small computers|Bing 'investment\|R&D (INNOVA~1) etc./ | Jul 23 14:37 |
fewa | KVM-style virtualization: 1 device, 1 driver | Jul 23 14:44 |
fewa | coreboot also minimizes the BIOS so it doesnt require drivers xcept for RAM, CPU, and EEPROM | Jul 23 14:45 |
fewa | Linux drivers do the rest | Jul 23 14:45 |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip68-230-37-218.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 14:46 | |
schestowitz | wallclimber: we finished a phase in Comes. Just need to post that last bunch o' 3 | Jul 23 14:46 |
wallclimber | very good! | Jul 23 14:47 |
schestowitz | Then we can organise the Wiki beter | Jul 23 14:47 |
schestowitz | And I have some exec-ascribed exhibits | Jul 23 14:47 |
schestowitz | Progress was a lot faster than I imagined | Jul 23 14:47 |
wallclimber | I'm still reading the new BN articles for this morning | Jul 23 14:48 |
schestowitz | Are you still on Digg? Top 10 Most Dugg Stories on Digg < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/07/21/top-10-most-dugg-stories-on-digg > | Jul 23 14:49 |
schestowitz | Digg lost many people like me when their servers scaled badly. | Jul 23 14:49 |
schestowitz | Twitter is at risk of the same problem... pages load too slowly which puts people off for good | Jul 23 14:49 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: see the links. LOADS of catchup done. | Jul 23 14:49 |
wallclimber | I'm looking now | Jul 23 14:50 |
schestowitz | Tonight the big news shall come... from MSFT Corp. | Jul 23 14:50 |
schestowitz | Heh. Just quotes in CNET: "Roy Schestowitz, perhaps predictably, argued that Microsoft only did it because Linux can't be ignored. " < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10293000-16.html > | Jul 23 14:51 |
schestowitz | *oted | Jul 23 14:53 |
wallclimber | I do check digg still, but I rarely stay there for long these days | Jul 23 14:53 |
schestowitz | Byfield reposted: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reports/6801/1/ | Jul 23 14:53 |
schestowitz | There is pro-Mono bias from him. He usually takes the opposite view from us, except KDE and some other things. | Jul 23 14:54 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: When someone posts a URL to Linux items from Digg I usually see the linsxxxxxxxxxxxxxx crowd there | Jul 23 14:55 |
schestowitz | BN comments are like mostly (>50%) from opposers of the site, too. | Jul 23 14:55 |
schestowitz | They dress themselves up and try to reverse the debate | Jul 23 14:55 |
wallclimber | "open source eats its young"??? lol wow. THAT'S a little hostile, for sure | Jul 23 14:55 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why 2024 Will Be Like Nineteen Eighty-Four < http://ping.fm/ZvDTu > | Jul 23 14:56 | |
schestowitz | wallclimber: it goes way back | Jul 23 14:57 |
schestowitz | Asay and I don't agree on some things. | Jul 23 14:58 |
schestowitz | But we respect each other in a way. He's sensitive to criticism IMHO | Jul 23 14:58 |
wallclimber | he's one that tends more towards "open source" than "free software" - yes? | Jul 23 14:58 |
schestowitz | Yes, where open source also means Apple | Jul 23 14:59 |
MinceR | he's the one who pretends to be a FLOSS supporter while only supporting crApple | Jul 23 14:59 |
schestowitz | And he's a Chamberlain type. | Jul 23 14:59 |
wallclimber | lol...should I ever admit publically that i love apple stuff? | Jul 23 14:59 |
schestowitz | Having lunch with Mikysoft | Jul 23 14:59 |
MinceR | and crApple's FLOSS support is "we took all we wanted from you, now die" | Jul 23 15:00 |
MinceR | wallclimber: no, you should admit it to your psychiatrist and look for a solution | Jul 23 15:00 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: forget to buy apples this afternoon | Jul 23 15:00 |
schestowitz | *forgot | Jul 23 15:00 |
wallclimber | the reason is that I got a LOT of my most annoying friends and family (annoying regarding computer help) to buy Macs. I haven't had to help them since...so, i love macs | Jul 23 15:01 |
schestowitz | I like apple... when it fresh and red. | Jul 23 15:01 |
MinceR | ew | Jul 23 15:01 |
wallclimber | :) | Jul 23 15:01 |
MinceR | i like apple in juice and cookie form | Jul 23 15:01 |
MinceR | and in jam form | Jul 23 15:01 |
wallclimber | i like apple pie with ice cream | Jul 23 15:01 |
schestowitz | MinceR: that's gelatin. | Jul 23 15:01 |
MinceR | huh? | Jul 23 15:02 |
MinceR | not all gelatin has apple scent and taste :) | Jul 23 15:02 |
wallclimber | i've often wanted to throw rotten apples at my ex mother in law | Jul 23 15:02 |
schestowitz | You know who doesn't make substandard products? Philips | Jul 23 15:02 |
MinceR | they do too | Jul 23 15:02 |
schestowitz | I've had the same Philishave for like 10 years. No need for battery change either. | Jul 23 15:03 |
MinceR | they make writable optical media with its center of mass in the wrong place | Jul 23 15:03 |
MinceR | and headphones that are way too fragile to use | Jul 23 15:03 |
MinceR | now the philishave is nice stuff | Jul 23 15:03 |
MinceR | i have one too | Jul 23 15:03 |
schestowitz | MinceR: they put some apple portion in there | Jul 23 15:03 |
schestowitz | Like with those 'natural' orange juice | Jul 23 15:03 |
schestowitz | "May ACTAULLY contain REAL fruit" | Jul 23 15:04 |
MinceR | depends on the product | Jul 23 15:04 |
MinceR | i've had homemade apple jam | Jul 23 15:04 |
schestowitz | They always have preservatives | Jul 23 15:04 |
schestowitz | Some have acids | Jul 23 15:04 |
MinceR | apple naturally contains acids | Jul 23 15:04 |
schestowitz | Look what they got their OS | Jul 23 15:04 |
MinceR | way too much, in fact -- that's one of the reasons why i don't like it raw | Jul 23 15:04 |
schestowitz | Kids on acid | Jul 23 15:04 |
MinceR | that's an unrelated apple | Jul 23 15:04 |
schestowitz | j/K | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | [The BSD stereotype] | Jul 23 15:05 |
MinceR | i've heard jobs came up with the mac (or something) on LSD | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | Maybe | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | It was around that time | Jul 23 15:05 |
MinceR | perhaps that's how their products can be viewed as good-looking | Jul 23 15:05 |
MinceR | on acid. | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | I watched a program about it... on TV 2 weeks ago | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | About the Hippies | Jul 23 15:05 |
schestowitz | THey interviewed Woz there, too | Jul 23 15:05 |
wallclimber | hey, be careful what you say about hippies | Jul 23 15:06 |
MinceR | pft | Jul 23 15:06 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: why? I like em | Jul 23 15:06 |
wallclimber | that's my generation | Jul 23 15:06 |
wallclimber | : ) | Jul 23 15:06 |
MinceR | i doubt those two have anything to do with hippies | Jul 23 15:06 |
schestowitz | They do | Jul 23 15:06 |
schestowitz | It's the Softers that ain't | Jul 23 15:06 |
MinceR | they're the same crap in different packaging | Jul 23 15:07 |
wallclimber | woz and jobs were university hippies - groovy man | Jul 23 15:07 |
schestowitz | The 'poor' spoiled Seattle kid and a nutter from Detroit, MI | Jul 23 15:07 |
schestowitz | Where's Allen from?.. | Jul 23 15:07 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: yes. | Jul 23 15:07 |
schestowitz | They also built themselves based on this image IIRC | Jul 23 15:08 |
schestowitz | I think many programmers at the time were free thinkers | Jul 23 15:08 |
schestowitz | RMS came a lot later | Jul 23 15:08 |
MinceR | what has free thinking have to do with crApple? | Jul 23 15:08 |
schestowitz | A Hippie awoken after his time, maybe influenced by the CHomskies of MIT | Jul 23 15:08 |
MinceR | "do what jobs says/does" doesn't sound like "free thinking" to me at all | Jul 23 15:08 |
MinceR | s/does/wants/ | Jul 23 15:08 |
schestowitz | THink Different | Jul 23 15:09 |
schestowitz | 1984 ad... | Jul 23 15:09 |
schestowitz | Standing out fromt he crowd | Jul 23 15:09 |
MinceR | that's just propaganda | Jul 23 15:09 |
MinceR | none of it is true | Jul 23 15:09 |
schestowitz | As a fashion statement for the Benays propaganda industry to addres with diversity | Jul 23 15:09 |
schestowitz | *rnay | Jul 23 15:09 |
MinceR | even windows is more flexible than osx | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | iPhone comes in many colours | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | Oops. THat would be iPod | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | And Macs come in one 'edition' | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | And I never see anyone deviating fro Aqua/Bruished Metal | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | Not since 2002 | Jul 23 15:10 |
wallclimber | lol okay, that's the last time i mention the words apple or mac here, even in jest | Jul 23 15:10 |
schestowitz | *Hehe. Brushed, not bruised metal | Jul 23 15:11 |
MinceR | well, afaik the tools that let you deviate from Brushed Metal/Drops of Water on Paper cost money | Jul 23 15:11 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jul 23 15:11 |
schestowitz | You can darken them | Jul 23 15:11 |
schestowitz | But the base is the same | Jul 23 15:11 |
MinceR | (it's funny that they couldn't decide which one to use) | Jul 23 15:11 |
schestowitz | Apple employs decent artists.. icons too | Jul 23 15:11 |
MinceR | i wouldn't call that look decent | Jul 23 15:12 |
schestowitz | It looks neat | Jul 23 15:12 |
schestowitz | But Linux has the same thing | Jul 23 15:12 |
MinceR | it looks Fisher-Pricey | Jul 23 15:12 |
schestowitz | And goes futher with desktop effects | Jul 23 15:12 |
schestowitz | MinceR: no, that Axe-Pee | Jul 23 15:12 |
MinceR | gnu/linux desktops look a lot better than either | Jul 23 15:12 |
MinceR | yes, xp/luna is Fisher-Price too | Jul 23 15:12 |
schestowitz | Many kids use WIndows | Jul 23 15:13 |
MinceR | and many kids use osx | Jul 23 15:13 |
schestowitz | Randing from 4 to ~ (inf | Jul 23 15:13 |
schestowitz | "Hi, I'm 4 and I use a PC" | Jul 23 15:13 |
schestowitz | *Guy walks into the office | Jul 23 15:13 |
schestowitz | I use Windows... and I'm proud... like that 4 -yo on telly. | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | That's how they advertise it | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | 'Nichery' | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | ANd for Apple... | Jul 23 15:14 |
wallclimber | I just tell people that if they DON'T want to learn about their computers, to buy Macs, if they're willing to learn, use GNU/Linux. I'm glad Apple is available for people | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | If yuo're a businessman using it you're symbolised by some arrogant chap | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | But they did their market studies... | Jul 23 15:14 |
schestowitz | THey figures out rich young people would buy with this image in mind | Jul 23 15:15 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: Apple is glad bsd is available for people :-) | Jul 23 15:15 |
schestowitz | [And that it ain't advertised properly] | Jul 23 15:15 |
schestowitz | IBM+Linux is similar | Jul 23 15:16 |
schestowitz | "COme to us, you'll be safe. We have patents." | Jul 23 15:16 |
schestowitz | That's why many business would choose RHTIBM rather than Debian | Jul 23 15:16 |
wallclimber | so, what will be the ms news today? how will they spin it? | Jul 23 15:16 |
schestowitz | Not sure... | Jul 23 15:16 |
schestowitz | Last time they eclipsed Ubuntu release | Jul 23 15:16 |
MinceR | ubuntu works for those who don't want to learn | Jul 23 15:16 |
schestowitz | 26th of April IIRC | Jul 23 15:17 |
schestowitz | They'll do it again in Oct. | Jul 23 15:17 |
MinceR | and someone knowledgeable can configure it for them if necessary | Jul 23 15:17 |
wallclimber | MinceR: no it doesn't | Jul 23 15:17 |
MinceR | and once the user decides he does want to learn, he can do so immediately under gnu/linux | Jul 23 15:17 |
MinceR | if he used crApple, he gets to throw it away and start over | Jul 23 15:17 |
schestowitz | Learn what? | Jul 23 15:17 |
MinceR | how to do more with IT | Jul 23 15:17 |
schestowitz | What do you need to learn in Ubuntu that yuo needn't learn in OS X | Jul 23 15:18 |
MinceR | personalize his environment, write scripts, etc. | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | Even installed s/w in Linux is easier | Jul 23 15:18 |
wallclimber | some learning is required for Macs too, it's just that new mac owners get help from Apple | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | PCLOS has Synaptic | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: ahh.. | Jul 23 15:18 |
MinceR | you need to learn some computing to use a general-purpose computer fully | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: my grandpa keeps calling me | Jul 23 15:18 |
MinceR | wallclimber: and there's no IRC, there are no forums, no web, etc. | Jul 23 15:18 |
MinceR | i see | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | He wants me to sort out him hotmail issues | Jul 23 15:18 |
wallclimber | I'm too new myself to be helping impatient newbies to learn | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | Forgotten password | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | And question fallbacks too | Jul 23 15:18 |
schestowitz | He should harass Microsoft. | Jul 23 15:19 |
wallclimber | heck, i just figured out late last night that i can change from Gnome to KDE without installing a whole new system | Jul 23 15:19 |
wallclimber | lol - duh | Jul 23 15:19 |
MinceR | see, you're learning | Jul 23 15:19 |
schestowitz | They must be staring at the screens tonight like air control people at NASA watching the lander crashing on Mars | Jul 23 15:19 |
MinceR | also, you did something osx can't do | Jul 23 15:19 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: yeah, you could run 10 DEs | Jul 23 15:20 |
wallclimber | I just needed to get SOME people off my back every time they had a Windows problem | Jul 23 15:20 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: you can still run your gnome apps in kde | Jul 23 15:20 |
wallclimber | others, I've found are willing to learn along with me | Jul 23 15:20 |
MinceR | the windows problem is easy to solved | Jul 23 15:20 |
MinceR | basically bomb redmond. :> | Jul 23 15:20 |
schestowitz | gnome apps like tomb0i | Jul 23 15:20 |
MinceR | s/ved/ve/ | Jul 23 15:20 |
schestowitz | MinceR: enough with the BC | Jul 23 15:21 |
schestowitz | You're harming the message | Jul 23 15:21 |
MinceR | pft | Jul 23 15:21 |
schestowitz | Evil smiley | Jul 23 15:21 |
MinceR | what's BC, btw? | Jul 23 15:21 |
schestowitz | Redmond can be used for good things | Jul 23 15:21 |
schestowitz | They can be used as a museum | Jul 23 15:21 |
schestowitz | How bad engineering is done | Jul 23 15:21 |
MinceR | yes, actually only One Microsoft Way needs to be turned into a crater :> | Jul 23 15:21 |
MinceR | or that | Jul 23 15:22 |
schestowitz | Security Response team... how to hide flaws. | Jul 23 15:22 |
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:22 | |
MinceR | it could be the Museum of Bad Engineering | Jul 23 15:22 |
MinceR | oh, look what the wind brought in through the door | Jul 23 15:22 |
lefty_ | hey, I was hoping that your licesning and IP expert, Mr. Goblin, would be around. | Jul 23 15:22 |
MinceR | and i was hoping that we won't get any trolls today | Jul 23 15:22 |
lefty_ | I have some questions I'd like to ask him about his interpretation of the Microsoft submission. | Jul 23 15:23 |
MinceR | but we can't get everything we wish for, i guess | Jul 23 15:23 |
lefty_ | Tough, pal. | Jul 23 15:23 |
lefty_ | Learn to live with disappointment. | Jul 23 15:23 |
MinceR | maybe i'll have to | Jul 23 15:23 |
lefty_ | Hey, did you know that Greg K-H works for _Novell_? | Jul 23 15:23 |
lefty_ | Trust me on this, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:23 |
MinceR | any other _news_? :> | Jul 23 15:23 |
lefty_ | This is the current event, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:24 |
lefty_ | Look at the front page of the site. | Jul 23 15:24 |
MinceR | no, actually gregkh has been working for them for a while. | Jul 23 15:24 |
lefty_ | This _is_ the news, or at least Roy thinks so. | Jul 23 15:24 |
lefty_ | Yes, I'm well aware of that. I know Greg. | Jul 23 15:24 |
lefty_ | But it's Goblin's legal expertise I'm really interested in. | Jul 23 15:25 |
MinceR | i don't think it's new for him either. | Jul 23 15:25 |
MinceR | why, your friends from redmond don't have enough legal expertise already? | Jul 23 15:25 |
lefty_ | After all, Jose has already wondered out loud, in his equivocal fashion, whether Greg is a "Trojan". | Jul 23 15:25 |
lefty_ | Oh, they've got plenty, but they're not particularly my friends, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:25 |
Trials | Hay Lefty, welcome back. | Jul 23 15:25 |
lefty_ | Got some support for that statement, or did you just think it sounded good? | Jul 23 15:26 |
MinceR | employers, then? | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | Sorry? | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | Oh, I see. | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | You're claiming I work for Microsoft. | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | That's humorous. | Jul 23 15:26 |
MinceR | i expect your irc client has a buffer that you can read | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | Stupid, but humorous. | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | Got a pont? | Jul 23 15:26 |
MinceR | sorry, i guess i've sunk to your level for a moment. | Jul 23 15:26 |
lefty_ | Uh huh. | Jul 23 15:27 |
lefty_ | I haven't claimed that you work for Microsoft, even though you guys do more tomake FLOSS look bad than they do. | Jul 23 15:27 |
MinceR | then i guess it's my turn to ask for some support for that claim. | Jul 23 15:28 |
lefty_ | I guess that means I haven't descended to your level. | Jul 23 15:28 |
MinceR | it's kind of difficult to descend upwards, yes. | Jul 23 15:28 |
lefty_ | Go ask folks like Dave Neary, or Greg, or any of the folks on the GNOME Board what they thing of BN as a "news resource" | Jul 23 15:28 |
Trials | Support for what claim MinceR ? | Jul 23 15:28 |
lefty_ | or of your advocacy. | Jul 23 15:28 |
MinceR | i don't really care what greg or any of your pals thinks. | Jul 23 15:28 |
lefty_ | Look at the coments on my latest blog posting. | Jul 23 15:28 |
lefty_ | I see. you don't care what the maintainers of the kernel think. | Jul 23 15:29 |
lefty_ | _you_ know better. | Jul 23 15:29 |
MinceR | sorry, i didn't know only your pals mattered in the whole world. | Jul 23 15:29 |
MinceR | that's one or two maintainers | Jul 23 15:29 |
MinceR | who happen to work for novell | Jul 23 15:29 |
MinceR | so novell employees don't like that we expose their dirty dealings, what a shock. | Jul 23 15:30 |
MinceR | stop the presses. | Jul 23 15:30 |
Trials | what dirty dealings ?? compile the kernel ? | Jul 23 15:30 |
lefty_ | Feel free to ask _any_ of them. | Jul 23 15:30 |
MinceR | look it up | Jul 23 15:30 |
lefty_ | Are you accusing Greg K-H of "dirty dealings"? | Jul 23 15:31 |
Trials | you made the statement, I would expect you to back it up with you know,,, facts.. | Jul 23 15:31 |
lefty_ | Just want to be clear here. | Jul 23 15:31 |
MinceR | no, i'm accusing novell. | Jul 23 15:31 |
lefty_ | Well, what's the relevsnce to this situation? | Jul 23 15:31 |
MinceR | and i'm afraid i'll have to accuse you of failing at reading comprehension. | Jul 23 15:31 |
lefty_ | Novell doesn't maintain the kernel. | Jul 23 15:31 |
lefty_ | you can accuse me of anything you like. | Jul 23 15:32 |
oiaohm | I class MS as desperate. | Jul 23 15:32 |
lefty_ | I'm still not persuaded you have any idea what you're talking about. | Jul 23 15:32 |
oiaohm | Main reasons. | Jul 23 15:32 |
popey | MinceR: actually you said "novell employees don't like that we expose their dirty dealings" implying quite strongly that it was the novell employees who were doing the dirty dealings | Jul 23 15:32 |
lefty_ | Indeed. | Jul 23 15:32 |
MinceR | lefty_: i won't try to persuade you against your religion. | Jul 23 15:32 |
lefty_ | So, again: is Greg K-H involved in dirty dealings? | Jul 23 15:32 |
MinceR | popey: i've already clarified | Jul 23 15:32 |
Trials | what dirty dealings are you referring too ? | Jul 23 15:32 |
lefty_ | What "religion" would that be, MinceR? | Jul 23 15:32 |
popey | ok | Jul 23 15:32 |
MinceR | lefty_: your irc client has a buffer. learn to use it. | Jul 23 15:32 |
lefty_ | I'm a Buddhist, myself. | Jul 23 15:32 |
oiaohm | By releasing drivers in Linux has really made Linux appear to more hardware makers as a platform of interest. | Jul 23 15:33 |
lefty_ | kiss my ass, Mincer. | Jul 23 15:33 |
Trials | IRC only buffers if you are loged on MinceR | Jul 23 15:33 |
MinceR | lefty_: is this the "polite debate" you've claimed to be doing? | Jul 23 15:33 |
MinceR | Trials: which he seems to be. | Jul 23 15:33 |
lefty_ | That's on the site, there's no such rule in IRC. | Jul 23 15:33 |
Trials | look up your log please, and correct yourself. | Jul 23 15:33 |
oiaohm | MS has always wanted dominance lefty_ | Jul 23 15:34 |
lefty_ | So, when you guys get polite, I will, tooo. | Jul 23 15:34 |
MinceR | lefty_: i was polite, you weren't. so you've lost. | Jul 23 15:34 |
oiaohm | It has been documented in too many cases to be questioned lefty_ | Jul 23 15:34 |
lefty_ | So you say, oiaohm. | Jul 23 15:34 |
Trials | oiaohm, and they got that dominance as well. so ? | Jul 23 15:34 |
MinceR | Trials: what point are you trying to make? | Jul 23 15:35 |
lefty_ | I'm talking specifically about the Hyper-V drivers. | Jul 23 15:35 |
oiaohm | Starts with sun back with SMB. | Jul 23 15:35 |
oiaohm | Again with intel in 2000 with Linux support. | Jul 23 15:35 |
oiaohm | Its a repeating theme. | Jul 23 15:35 |
lefty_ | If the drivers are a trap, and given that Greg's taking them into the tree, is he a co-conspirator or a pawn? | Jul 23 15:35 |
oiaohm | MS has made a mistake. | Jul 23 15:35 |
oiaohm | Just they don't know it yet. | Jul 23 15:35 |
lefty_ | Don't tell me your theory of history. | Jul 23 15:35 |
MinceR | lefty_: fallacy of no third option. | Jul 23 15:35 |
lefty_ | Talk about this specific situation. | Jul 23 15:35 |
MinceR | though he's likely a co-conspirator of sorts. | Jul 23 15:36 |
oiaohm | They should read the patent agreement carefully. | Jul 23 15:36 |
MinceR | (being on novell payroll and all) | Jul 23 15:36 |
Trials | It's GPL'd code, that should be the end of the story. | Jul 23 15:36 |
MinceR | and yet it isn't the end of the story. | Jul 23 15:36 |
oiaohm | If lets say Linux builds a test case to test the hyper-v drivers. | Jul 23 15:36 |
Trials | should be | Jul 23 15:36 |
lefty_ | Ok, thanks for clearting up your thinking on that, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:36 |
oiaohm | That just happens to allow Linux kernel to run windows contained. | Jul 23 15:36 |
lefty_ | More evidence of how far out in left field you are. | Jul 23 15:36 |
Trials | unless you want to devalue the GPL | Jul 23 15:36 |
MinceR | my thinking has always been clear. | Jul 23 15:36 |
oiaohm | There is nothing MS can legal do now lefty_. | Jul 23 15:36 |
MinceR | Trials: it's not a silver bullet. | Jul 23 15:36 |
Trials | read the GPL, it in fact IS. | Jul 23 15:37 |
oiaohm | MS has done it for domination. | Jul 23 15:37 |
lefty_ | who _cares_ waht it allows? _Greg_ doesn't mind. | Jul 23 15:37 |
oiaohm | But they have written there own doom. | Jul 23 15:37 |
MinceR | Trials: get a clue, it in fact isn't. | Jul 23 15:37 |
oiaohm | Greg is smart enough to know that. | Jul 23 15:37 |
lefty_ | People _do_ run Linux, virtualized, on Server 2008 systems you know. | Jul 23 15:37 |
lefty_ | A lot of them do. | Jul 23 15:37 |
MinceR | GPLv3 tries to help with the patent mess, but even that can't fix everything. | Jul 23 15:37 |
oiaohm | Lot don't lefty_ | Jul 23 15:37 |
lefty_ | GPL v3 is unusable in the kernel, and will always be. | Jul 23 15:37 |
oiaohm | For cost reasons and stablity. | Jul 23 15:37 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] just back from job int. went nicely. *pint* to hirez! here's to mates of mates ;-) | Jul 23 15:37 | |
Trials | I can read the GPL just as well as you can, would you like me to cut and paste the relavent part for you to read, or would that make you look silly ? | Jul 23 15:38 |
MinceR | lefty_: or so you hope. | Jul 23 15:38 |
oiaohm | Never claim never lefty_ | Jul 23 15:38 |
lefty_ | I could do the same, Trials. | Jul 23 15:38 |
MinceR | Trials: are you a lawyer? | Jul 23 15:38 |
lefty_ | MinceR you haven't got a clue what you're babbling about. | Jul 23 15:38 |
oiaohm | Linus as not ruled out conversion in future to GPLv3 | Jul 23 15:38 |
oiaohm | Just he sees no need to do it now lefty_ | Jul 23 15:38 |
lefty_ | Do any of you understand section 7 of the GPL v 2? | Jul 23 15:38 |
Trials | It's not brain science | Jul 23 15:38 |
Trials | I do :) | Jul 23 15:38 |
MinceR | lefty_: do you? | Jul 23 15:39 |
lefty_ | He's ruled it out for the foreseeable future. | Jul 23 15:39 |
oiaohm | If there were good enough alterations worth while changing Linux kernel to gplv3 Linus would do it lefty_ | Jul 23 15:39 |
oiaohm | Some people are foolish in this reguard. | Jul 23 15:39 |
lefty_ | That's an "if" the size of the Grand Canyon. | Jul 23 15:39 |
Trials | Linus does, greg does, I do and i can think of anyone else who | Jul 23 15:39 |
oiaohm | If you had been following the debate on gplv3 in the Linux mailing list you would no that. lefty_ | Jul 23 15:39 |
lefty_ | I figured you understood it, Trials. | Jul 23 15:39 |
Ng | oiaohm: http://lkml.org/lkml/2006/1/25/273 | Jul 23 15:40 |
lefty_ | I don't think any of these _other_ bozos, and that incliudes Goblin, do. | Jul 23 15:40 |
*** twitter ignores trolls lefty and Trails | Jul 23 15:40 | |
oiaohm | That simple hole makes never impossiable lefty_ | Jul 23 15:40 |
lefty_ | How's that dossier coming, Lefty? | Jul 23 15:40 |
MinceR | now he's talking to himse.f | Jul 23 15:40 |
MinceR | s/\.f/lf./ | Jul 23 15:40 |
lefty_ | Sorry, that was directed at Mr. Hill. | Jul 23 15:41 |
oiaohm | Ng that is not the only argument on it. | Jul 23 15:41 |
lefty_ | He's been collecting "as much information as he could find" on me. | Jul 23 15:41 |
oiaohm | You are looking for the 2007 one Ng | Jul 23 15:41 |
lefty_ | I wondered if he needed help with that. | Jul 23 15:41 |
Trials | thats right gathering all the information he could on you lefty for Roy, I saw that | Jul 23 15:41 |
lefty_ | So, oiaohm, want to explain how sect. 7 relates to this situation for me? | Jul 23 15:42 |
oiaohm | Where linus was asked if there could be any condition that would make GPLv3 conversion happen Ng. | Jul 23 15:42 |
lefty_ | I wonder if they;d like to harass my manager a little more. | Jul 23 15:42 |
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Jul 23 15:42 | |
Trials | too hard basket | Jul 23 15:43 |
lefty_ | that's a tangent, you certainly can't use GPL v3 in the kernel now. | Jul 23 15:43 |
lefty_ | Man, what a coward that twit is. | Jul 23 15:43 |
*twitter (n=willhill@97-113-221-139.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:43 | |
lefty_ | Cut and run. | Jul 23 15:43 |
MinceR | strange, i had the impression that some parts were already v2/v3 dual-licensed or v2+-licensed | Jul 23 15:43 |
lefty_ | Oh, hi, Willy. | Jul 23 15:43 |
lefty_ | I just called you a coward for bailing out. | Jul 23 15:43 |
lefty_ | That was wrong of me. | Jul 23 15:43 |
Ng | oiaohm: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/20/223 he doesn't sound wildly positive there either ;) | Jul 23 15:44 |
lefty_ | I sincerely apologize and will endeavor not to make such irresponsible statements again in the future. | Jul 23 15:44 |
MinceR | (by v2+ i mean 'v2 or later') | Jul 23 15:44 |
I'm on my way to work. I have set this one to ignore lefty, Trails and other tribulations too. | Jul 23 15:44 | |
MinceR | :D | Jul 23 15:44 |
Trials | If you change the Kernel to V3 what is stopping you from changing to v4 or v5 or v6 depending on how Stallman feels or depending on whatever cause he is pushing now, that creates uncertainty in the industry, that FOSS can ill afford | Jul 23 15:44 |
lefty_ | Willy, got questions you want to ask me for my dossier? | Jul 23 15:44 |
***twitter ignores trolls lefty and Trails | Jul 23 15:44 | |
lefty_ | My mom's address? My SSID? | Jul 23 15:44 |
lefty_ | Credit rating? | Jul 23 15:45 |
lefty_ | how convenient, WIlly. | Jul 23 15:45 |
oiaohm | That is part way threw Ng | Jul 23 15:45 |
lefty_ | I guess "invasion of privacy" is all good fun, huh? | Jul 23 15:45 |
oiaohm | I never said the out come was possive. | Jul 23 15:45 |
MinceR | Trials: it depends on the decision of the copyright holders, as usual. | Jul 23 15:45 |
lefty_ | Well, back to the Hyper-V submission. | Jul 23 15:45 |
oiaohm | End result conversion in case of need was not ruled out Ng. | Jul 23 15:45 |
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to MinceR | Jul 23 15:46 | |
schestowitz | bbl | Jul 23 15:46 |
*tacone (n=Adium@151.81.30.69) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:46 | |
lefty_ | All 35,000 of them,, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:46 |
please don't feed that one MinceR. I don't like filtering through it all manually. | Jul 23 15:46 | |
bbl | Jul 23 15:46 | |
tacone | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/ | Jul 23 15:46 |
oiaohm | Like if Solaris coverted GPLv3 intergration option would be worth it Ng. | Jul 23 15:46 |
*Krenso (n=Krenso@apn-77-114-226-250.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:47 | |
lefty_ | It's probably true. That doesn't change the current licensing status of those drivers, which is the Right THing. | Jul 23 15:47 |
*Krenso has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 15:47 | |
lefty_ | As everyone, except the collective geniuses of Boycott Novell, agrees. | Jul 23 15:47 |
lefty_ | I'm still not satisfied that you guys even understand the GPL. | Jul 23 15:48 |
MinceR | that's your problem, not ours. | Jul 23 15:48 |
*amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-147-46.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:48 | |
lefty_ | I'd like to see a demonstration of that understanding. | Jul 23 15:48 |
*Krenso (n=Krenso@apn-77-114-226-250.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:48 | |
lefty_ | Tell me how section 7 applies here. | Jul 23 15:48 |
*amarsh04 has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) | Jul 23 15:48 | |
*zoobab01 has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) | Jul 23 15:48 | |
*Ng has quit (leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) | Jul 23 15:48 | |
MinceR | consult your lawyer. | Jul 23 15:48 |
MinceR | you were bragging about taking legal action anyway | Jul 23 15:49 |
lefty_ | There's a clue in the Preamble, if that helps you with your analysis. | Jul 23 15:49 |
Krenso | Hello | Jul 23 15:49 |
lefty_ | Relevance? | Jul 23 15:49 |
MinceR | (or threatening) | Jul 23 15:49 |
lefty_ | I'm still going to be taking legal action against Roy and this site. | Jul 23 15:49 |
oiaohm | There is a problem. | Jul 23 15:49 |
*zoobab01 (i=zoobab@vic.ffii.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:49 | |
thenixedreport | @lefty_: Go ahead. | Jul 23 15:49 |
MinceR | then you have a lawyer at hand. | Jul 23 15:49 |
thenixedreport | Don't just talk about it. | Jul 23 15:49 |
thenixedreport | Do it! | Jul 23 15:49 |
lefty_ | (Yes, "boycottnovel.com" will be named as a defendant) | Jul 23 15:50 |
Trials | MinceR i think he was (rightly) implying that mabey you do not understand the GPl and the protection it offers. | Jul 23 15:50 |
MinceR | hat domain isn't even registered. | Jul 23 15:50 |
lefty_ | I'm in the process of doing it right now. | Jul 23 15:50 |
MinceR | Trials: and i think that maybe you shouldn't be so sure about your ideas of what it can and can't do. | Jul 23 15:50 |
Trials | I think mabey you dont want too believe it becfause it does not help your "bias" against MS or Nevell | Jul 23 15:50 |
oiaohm | Does Roy have the documents to prove that you being a turfer by MS be rightly suspected. Answer yes lefty_. | Jul 23 15:50 |
wallclimber | (Trials is the old Mutex, I'm pretty sure) | Jul 23 15:50 |
oiaohm | So go ahead. | Jul 23 15:50 |
lefty_ | thanks for the typo flame, none. | Jul 23 15:50 |
MinceR | Trials: and there are issues beyond licensing. | Jul 23 15:50 |
*Ng (n=cmsj@nurukipa.tenshu.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 15:51 | |
oiaohm | Most you can get is a public sorry. lefty_ | Jul 23 15:51 |
lefty_ | Anyone want to share their GPL expertise? | Jul 23 15:51 |
Trials | Sorry MinceR but I can read the GPL and I have, would you like a lesson on it ? | Jul 23 15:51 |
lefty_ | Trials and I are, I think, dying to hear all about it. | Jul 23 15:51 |
Krenso | have you read this http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/93nc6/could_we_get_this_spammer_blocked_please/ | Jul 23 15:51 |
oiaohm | GPL v2 does not cover patents explicically lefty_ | Jul 23 15:51 |
Krenso | There should be some change | Jul 23 15:52 |
Trials | Really oiaohm, are you sure ?? | Jul 23 15:52 |
oiaohm | Reason why major submits to the Linux kernel by a company require a extra document lefty_. | Jul 23 15:52 |
Krenso | how aarticles are promoted on the web | Jul 23 15:52 |
oiaohm | I am sure Trials | Jul 23 15:52 |
MinceR | Trials: i'd like a lesson on it from someone who has a clue, not someone who only has a big mouth. | Jul 23 15:52 |
oiaohm | GPLv2 was written before the wide use of software patents. | Jul 23 15:52 |
lefty_ | Is that so, oiaohm? You know something everybody else doeesn't. | Jul 23 15:52 |
Trials | so if I sent you the relavent section of the GPLv2 that covers patent encumbered code you would say its not true ? | Jul 23 15:53 |
MinceR | peer-reviewed independent analysises would be even better. | Jul 23 15:53 |
lefty_ | No, Trials, he wouldn't. | Jul 23 15:53 |
oiaohm | Yes realy why MS had to give a public statement on that they would not push patents over the submited drivers. | Jul 23 15:53 |
lefty_ | He'd ignore it, or spout the same sort of nonsense we've been seeing. | Jul 23 15:53 |
lefty_ | Ir tell you that you have a "big mouth". | Jul 23 15:53 |
lefty_ | Maybe all of the above. | Jul 23 15:54 |
MinceR | Trials: if you believe that only the literal text of the license in itself is enough to fully understand its legal consequences then i don't think i need to hear about anything more from you. :> | Jul 23 15:54 |
oiaohm | Its part of the normal submit process IBM had to do the same thing when they did a large submit to the linux kernel. | Jul 23 15:54 |
Trials | with a name like OHM he's bound to have some resistance | Jul 23 15:54 |
lefty_ | Well,MinceR, that shows your ignorance. | Jul 23 15:54 |
oiaohm | Linux kernel has internal policies on top of there licence lefty_ | Jul 23 15:54 |
MinceR | oiaohm: did they give that public statement already | Jul 23 15:54 |
MinceR | lefty_: actually it shows yours. | Jul 23 15:54 |
lefty_ | The literal text of the license is absolutely the only part a judge would pay attention to. | Jul 23 15:54 |
MinceR | here's a hint: there are laws you can't override at all in any sort of agreement or license. | Jul 23 15:55 |
oiaohm | MS has given the required public statement on the hyper-v drivers. | Jul 23 15:55 |
Ng | oiaohm: IANAL, but GPL-2 clearly mentions patents in more than one section? | Jul 23 15:55 |
Trials | certainly not "politics" or "morals" | Jul 23 15:55 |
lefty_ | Oh, MinceR? How? | Jul 23 15:55 |
Trials | Ng yes it does, im glad you can read too. | Jul 23 15:55 |
lefty_ | You _do_ know that I;'m recognized as being an expert in open source and free software licensing. | Jul 23 15:55 |
MinceR | probably all legal systems know the concept of "inalienable rights", for example. | Jul 23 15:55 |
lefty_ | At least I hope you do. | Jul 23 15:55 |
MinceR | lefty_: i don't and you aren't making a good impression. | Jul 23 15:56 |
oiaohm | Note I said before software patents. | Jul 23 15:56 |
oiaohm | Not before hardware patents. | Jul 23 15:56 |
oiaohm | There are issues with wordings of those sections. | Jul 23 15:56 |
lefty_ | Well, I'm a member of the FSF-Europe Legal and Licensing Network, MinceR. | Jul 23 15:56 |
lefty_ | Invitiation-only group. | Jul 23 15:56 |
Trials | I can see lefty has displayed considerable balance and knowledge | Jul 23 15:56 |
lefty_ | All lawyers, except for me. | Jul 23 15:56 |
MinceR | lefty_: and you can show proof of it too, right? | Jul 23 15:56 |
oiaohm | It would be nice if someone would take GPLv2 into court and end some of the grey. | Jul 23 15:57 |
lefty_ | What are your credentials, MinceR? | Jul 23 15:57 |
Krenso | is lefty_ david "lefty" from gnome foundation? | Jul 23 15:57 |
Trials | yes | Jul 23 15:57 |
MinceR | lefty_: i didn't claim to be a legal expert, you did. | Jul 23 15:57 |
MinceR | lefty_: my credentials won't help prove your claims. | Jul 23 15:57 |
oiaohm | Issue with GPLv2 is since is create is pre software patents. | Jul 23 15:57 |
lefty_ | Yes, it is Lefty, but I'm not "from the GNOME FOundation". | Jul 23 15:57 |
lefty_ | I'm on the Ad Board. | Jul 23 15:57 |
oiaohm | Can its patent wording apply to latter invention. | Jul 23 15:57 |
lefty_ | But that's irrelevant here, I don't represent them. | Jul 23 15:58 |
oiaohm | Ie latter invention software patents. | Jul 23 15:58 |
oiaohm | It might apply or it might not. | Jul 23 15:58 |
lefty_ | A patent is a patent, oiaohm. | Jul 23 15:58 |
lefty_ | there's no distinction in the law, as prosecution goes, of software vs. non-software patents. | Jul 23 15:58 |
MinceR | depends on the country :> | Jul 23 15:59 |
oiaohm | That is what the hoped outcome would be lefty_ | Jul 23 15:59 |
oiaohm | And yes it does depend on country too lefty_ | Jul 23 15:59 |
lefty_ | MinceR, you can write Adriaan de Groot or Shane Michael Coughlan and ask them. | Jul 23 15:59 |
oiaohm | Its just a shade of grey until its tested. | Jul 23 15:59 |
Trials | and yes a patent wording can be applied to a new invention, thats what a patent is, but if the "new invention" is based on the patent "wording" its not a new invention by definition, its a copy of someone elses patent. | Jul 23 15:59 |
MinceR | lefty_: i don't know their credentials either | Jul 23 15:59 |
MinceR | lefty_: i don't even know if they exist. :> | Jul 23 15:59 |
MinceR | but i guess citing a few names is supposed to be proof. :> | Jul 23 16:00 |
lefty_ | _What_ depends on country? Wheher the Hyper-V drivers should be accepted into the driver tree? | Jul 23 16:00 |
lefty_ | What are you saying? | Jul 23 16:00 |
Trials | the GPL is not a strong license, its mainly based on copyright law that contract law | Jul 23 16:00 |
oiaohm | Hyper-v has a statement overing the patents. | Jul 23 16:00 |
MinceR | 171834 < lefty_> there's no distinction in the law, as prosecution goes, of software vs. non-software patents. | Jul 23 16:00 |
MinceR | that, for example. | Jul 23 16:00 |
oiaohm | So its not a issue. | Jul 23 16:00 |
lefty_ | I stand by that. | Jul 23 16:01 |
oiaohm | Issue is does Linux really need hyper-v supporting drivers. | Jul 23 16:01 |
lefty_ | show me the exception you claim. | Jul 23 16:01 |
MinceR | i'm not sure about the hyper-v thing at all. | Jul 23 16:01 |
Ng | what is the actual issue here? Microsoft setting up a patent trap by putting their drivers into Linux and then saying "aha! they violate our patents!"? | Jul 23 16:01 |
MinceR | for example, why add paravirtualization support that's specific to one product | Jul 23 16:01 |
oiaohm | No patent trap MinceR | Jul 23 16:01 |
MinceR | looks like design that would be normally frowned upon. | Jul 23 16:01 |
oiaohm | Ms has already released the statement preventing that. | Jul 23 16:01 |
lefty_ | THat seems to be the claim they're heading toward, Ng. | Jul 23 16:01 |
MinceR | and i thought linux had paravirtualization support for xen already | Jul 23 16:01 |
Trials | minceR thats right, as there is no distinction between software patents and "normal" patents. they are just patents, whats more its the law of the day you have to abide by the existing laws no matter how much you dont like them. | Jul 23 16:01 |
MinceR | so whe not use that? | Jul 23 16:01 |
oiaohm | As they were required to do by Linux kernel submiting policy. | Jul 23 16:01 |
Trials | or think they should be reformed | Jul 23 16:02 |
Ng | perhaps I missed the start of the argument, but I really can't see what the point you're debating is | Jul 23 16:02 |
lefty_ | I know that oiaohm. | Jul 23 16:02 |
MinceR | Trials: afaik in the EU there are no software patents, legally. i'd say that's a pretty strong distinction. | Jul 23 16:02 |
MinceR | s/whe /why / | Jul 23 16:02 |
oiaohm | Incorrect on the no difference between software and normal patents. | Jul 23 16:02 |
lefty_ | because it's an important product, one which is widely used in virtualizing Linux globally, MinceR? | Jul 23 16:02 |
lefty_ | Just guessin'. | Jul 23 16:02 |
oiaohm | Problem here in Australia they are differnet legal documents. | Jul 23 16:02 |
*pk is now known as PeterKraus | Jul 23 16:02 | |
MinceR | lefty_: that doesn't answer the question. | Jul 23 16:02 |
Trials | NG there is no point, the argument is about GPLv2 covering patents, as you said it does. | Jul 23 16:02 |
lefty_ | presumably the differences are to account for Oz law, and the net effect is the same. | Jul 23 16:03 |
lefty_ | the boys here are skeptical, Ng. | Jul 23 16:03 |
fewa | geeze yahoo answers is a zoo, so many people trying to pitch their AV warez for WIndows, and voting you down if you suggest Linux to an exasperated Windows user | Jul 23 16:03 |
lefty_ | they think the whole kernel needs to go GPL 3 to avoid problems. | Jul 23 16:03 |
Trials | MinceR yes, mabey that is true in the EU, that does not stop software patents from being applied there, is not TOMTOM from the EU ? | Jul 23 16:03 |
oiaohm | Also mp3 patents would not exist if gplv2 was enforacable against software patents. | Jul 23 16:03 |
lefty_ | or so it seems. | Jul 23 16:03 |
MinceR | lefty_: well, sorry for not taking the word of someone who rushes in trolling, threatening and disparaging as the authority of truth. | Jul 23 16:04 |
oiaohm | There is a problem no one has been prepaired to test it lefty_. | Jul 23 16:04 |
lefty_ | Indeed, Trials. It depends on where you sell the allegedly infringing device, not where the company's based. | Jul 23 16:04 |
MinceR | Trials: iirc there was a quote from ballmer regarding that they still register sw patents because they can't tell the difference. | Jul 23 16:04 |
Trials | MinceR what "untruth" has he said ? | Jul 23 16:04 |
MinceR | Trials: don't make me list that. :> | Jul 23 16:04 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] "Technical support should never be necessary" - a laudable goal, but, uhm. http://is.gd/1J0d3 | Jul 23 16:04 | |
lefty_ | I was wondering that,too. | Jul 23 16:05 |
fewa | indeed, the united states will scare away all the companies who develop and improve computing | Jul 23 16:05 |
MinceR | also, i didn't say it was "untruth", i said that it needed more support/proof. | Jul 23 16:05 |
fewa | by forcing them out of business with software patents | Jul 23 16:05 |
lefty_ | I'd suggest that I'm not the troll here.... | Jul 23 16:05 |
Trials | and as the US is the biggest market and they have software patents, they are basically international. | Jul 23 16:05 |
lefty_ | just the guiy asking very inconvenient questions. | Jul 23 16:05 |
MinceR | lefty_: just like any troll would. :> | Jul 23 16:05 |
lefty_ | exactly right, Trials. | Jul 23 16:05 |
Krenso | Lefty_, i'm suprised you are here. | Jul 23 16:05 |
MinceR | i'd like to see which part of "kiss my ass" is considered an "inconvenient question" | Jul 23 16:06 |
lefty_ | Why, are you surprised, Krenso? | Jul 23 16:06 |
oiaohm | The question with GPLv2 is time. Ie now can a contract apply to rules that did not exist when it was created. | Jul 23 16:06 |
lefty_ | The part where you're an insolent bitch, MinceR. Happy now? | Jul 23 16:06 |
oiaohm | That is a nice grey section of contract law that has never been tested. | Jul 23 16:06 |
*MinceR sets ban on *!*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462 | Jul 23 16:06 | |
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (that's enough, then.) | Jul 23 16:06 | |
Trials | the contract IS the rules oiaohm | Jul 23 16:06 |
MinceR | i think lefty really doesn't get what "polite" means. | Jul 23 16:07 |
fewa | Trials, where is the consideration? | Jul 23 16:07 |
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 16:07 | |
lefty_ | buncha cowards. | Jul 23 16:07 |
wallclimber | MinceR: Yay! | Jul 23 16:07 |
*MinceR sets ban on *!*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be | Jul 23 16:07 | |
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (ban evasion) | Jul 23 16:07 | |
oiaohm | It is the rules but how those rules can be applied to other rules created latter are a legal black hole. | Jul 23 16:07 |
oiaohm | Some cases say yes it can. | Jul 23 16:07 |
oiaohm | Other cases say no it cannot. | Jul 23 16:07 |
*lefty_ (i=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-db1d0bccf0f71025) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 16:08 | |
*MinceR sets ban on *!?=447ed9e6@* | Jul 23 16:08 | |
oiaohm | Inside the usa it self. | Jul 23 16:08 |
*MinceR has kicked lefty_ from #boycottnovell (ban evasion) | Jul 23 16:08 | |
*MinceR removes ban on *!*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-a8e49893aeb16462 | Jul 23 16:08 | |
oiaohm | So gplv2 is basically grey on patents until someone puts it before a court and its test cased. | Jul 23 16:08 |
*MinceR removes ban on *!*=447ed9e6@gateway/web/freenode/x-ecabb2071dab97be | Jul 23 16:08 | |
oiaohm | Hopefully it goes the way we want. | Jul 23 16:08 |
MinceR | i wonder if lefty will start demonstrating what the ip range he can access is. :> | Jul 23 16:09 |
schestowitz | `Plot thickens in the case of Apple worker 'suicide' < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1469213/plot-thickens-apple-worker-suicide > | Jul 23 16:10 |
wallclimber | I dunno, they seem a little like cockroaches, they always seem to find a way in | Jul 23 16:10 |
schestowitz | "Foxconn has said that it has suspended a security official after the death of a Chinese worker. | Jul 23 16:10 |
schestowitz | Sun Danyong, 25, reported a missing Iphone 4G phone prototype and was beaten by Foxconn employees who were terrified of the wrath of Steve Jobs." | Jul 23 16:10 |
oiaohm | Trials: I wish things in USA contract law were pure black and white and judges over time had not cause contradictions. | Jul 23 16:10 |
Krenso | lefty_, i'm suprised that you are here so long without being kicked. Your opionions are quite opposite to that of BN community | Jul 23 16:12 |
Trials | few laws are black and write, thats why people create contracts and more laws. if your hoping for less laws I have my doubts that will happen. | Jul 23 16:12 |
MinceR | it's not a matter of opinion | Jul 23 16:12 |
MinceR | and he isn't here. | Jul 23 16:12 |
Trials | yes, bye bye free speech. | Jul 23 16:12 |
oiaohm | Basically gplv2 would be fine if the time issue did not exist Trials | Jul 23 16:12 |
fewa | Trials, laws need to be clear, and then the grey space filled with rational thought | Jul 23 16:13 |
oiaohm | And did not require a court case to sort it out or a change of licence. | Jul 23 16:13 |
Trials | Time issue ? | Jul 23 16:13 |
MinceR | Trials: yes, if trolling and being impolite are the only thing you can use them for. | Jul 23 16:13 |
*PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Jul 23 16:13 | |
MinceR | Trials: also, you can still speak freely elsewhere | Jul 23 16:13 |
Trials | The GPL is a written contract, its posted everywhere and it is clear. | Jul 23 16:13 |
popey | Krenso: is it the case that anyone who has opposing views should not be here or will be kicked? | Jul 23 16:13 |
oiaohm | Different judges over time have ruled different on latter created laws and contracts. | Jul 23 16:13 |
MinceR | you can even start your own channel, your own website. | Jul 23 16:13 |
Trials | MinceR not the same thing, | Jul 23 16:13 |
oiaohm | Some judges have rules that contract applies to the new created laws. Some have ruled it don't. | Jul 23 16:13 |
MinceR | Trials: it doesn't mean we have to listen to your trolling and slurs. | Jul 23 16:13 |
MinceR | Trials: it doesn't mean we have to let you obstruct discussion here with threadcrapping. | Jul 23 16:14 |
oiaohm | So USA contract law is nicely screwed up because of it Trials | Jul 23 16:14 |
Trials | It also does not mean we have to expect someone to "filter" what is being said, because you dont agree with it. | Jul 23 16:14 |
Krenso | I don't want to /kick anybody, but after lefty_ blog posts it seems weird that he is tolerated here | Jul 23 16:15 |
tacone | it was about more about the offences | Jul 23 16:15 |
MinceR | Trials: also, in a likewise manner, BN (or any other website) isn't obligated to publish whatever you want to publish there by some sort of twisted notion of "free speech". | Jul 23 16:15 |
oiaohm | GPLv3 is fine because it was latter created. | Jul 23 16:15 |
tacone | he doesn't seem able to stay polite | Jul 23 16:15 |
oiaohm | So time issue does not apply Trials. | Jul 23 16:15 |
MinceR | Krenso: schestowitz wanted to keep him around | Jul 23 16:15 |
tacone | otherwise it would have been kicked before. | Jul 23 16:15 |
popey | Krenso: ah, ok, i thought you were implying that _anyone_ with opposing views was not welcome. | Jul 23 16:16 |
oiaohm | Now here is the kicker. If GPLv2 gets ruled protecting against software patents. So might MIT licence have to be. | Jul 23 16:16 |
schestowitz | Trials: people used this channel not only to troll but also lie about me and intimidate. THis is not acceptable, sorry. | Jul 23 16:16 |
Trials | It does seem that way | Jul 23 16:16 |
Trials | was lefty lying and intimidating you ? | Jul 23 16:16 |
schestowitz | Yes | Jul 23 16:17 |
Trials | ok | Jul 23 16:17 |
schestowitz | That's not fair | Jul 23 16:17 |
schestowitz | Respect is a mutual thing. | Jul 23 16:17 |
oiaohm | On software licences and patents and the time issue there has not been a test case. | Jul 23 16:17 |
Trials | ill have to re read the logs, but I thought he was talking about the GPL and not you | Jul 23 16:17 |
MinceR | Trials: he made threats of suing schestowitz, iirc (earlier) | Jul 23 16:17 |
schestowitz | Also by mail | Jul 23 16:18 |
Trials | but not now and here at some other time. | Jul 23 16:18 |
schestowitz | He should learn to be a gentleman | Jul 23 16:18 |
MinceR | Trials: he did start doing it here and now, too | Jul 23 16:18 |
oiaohm | Its also how enforcable GPL is. | Jul 23 16:18 |
oiaohm | Very few people have dared test it in court. | Jul 23 16:18 |
Trials | im reading the log, trying to find it .. | Jul 23 16:18 |
schestowitz | That's beside the point anyway. We're being distracted by all this. | Jul 23 16:19 |
oiaohm | So we don't really know how much damage it can do. | Jul 23 16:19 |
*ksbjf (i=5496eb8f@gateway/web/freenode/x-d9fa97b771900514) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 16:19 | |
schestowitz | I don't want to talk about people... | Jul 23 16:19 |
schestowitz | Let's talk ideas. | Jul 23 16:19 |
oiaohm | BSD was down right scary when it was court tested Trials | Jul 23 16:19 |
oiaohm | Novel with BSD could not pay in cash. | Jul 23 16:19 |
oiaohm | They had to pay in code and permiate assests. | Jul 23 16:20 |
schestowitz | Rememeber when someone asked about mysql downtime yesterday? | Jul 23 16:20 |
schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/22/mysql_sites_down/ Outage | Jul 23 16:20 |
schestowitz | 9:30GMT or so Microsoft will post results | Jul 23 16:21 |
schestowitz | The 'big' press will publish distractions | Jul 23 16:21 |
schestowitz | Because of the Microsoft PR | Jul 23 16:21 |
oiaohm | The time issue is really simple to over look Trials. | Jul 23 16:21 |
schestowitz | We need to delve into earnings and post that ASAP to beat the PR/difufsion to it | Jul 23 16:21 |
schestowitz | I wonder... | Jul 23 16:22 |
schestowitz | COuld VIsta 7 RTM be related to tonight's results? | Jul 23 16:22 |
schestowitz | COuld they time it so as to intersect and allow them to say, "yes, it's down sharply, but the 'best os ever' is out realsoonnow(R)" | Jul 23 16:23 |
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 23 16:23 | |
schestowitz | Oracle has big flaws now. So much for security by obscurity... | Jul 23 16:24 |
Ng | schestowitz: it could be related to being released in 3 months ;) | Jul 23 16:25 |
schestowitz | http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/07/23/review_electronic_book_irex_digtal_reader_dr1000s/ <--Linux based | Jul 23 16:25 |
schestowitz | Ng: well, dug | Jul 23 16:25 |
schestowitz | *duh, but it's not carved in stone | Jul 23 16:25 |
schestowitz | They could make RTM on Monday | Jul 23 16:25 |
schestowitz | You'll see the pitch | Jul 23 16:26 |
Ng | sure, it's pretty normal to try to bunch up press releases over a few days to try to stay in the headlines | Jul 23 16:26 |
schestowitz | See the video here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/21/msft-attitude/ | Jul 23 16:26 |
schestowitz | He mentioned just ONE product. | Jul 23 16:26 |
schestowitz | Ng: yes, but they organise them | Jul 23 16:27 |
schestowitz | THey make strategic timing happen. Always | Jul 23 16:27 |
schestowitz | "When to release bad news..." How to p00p on someone party (E.g. GOoogle Wave announcment..) | Jul 23 16:27 |
schestowitz | This is how it's done. Watch COmes documents... | Jul 23 16:27 |
schestowitz | *someone's | Jul 23 16:27 |
wallclimber | I think Win7 release was purposely pushed up to October to drown out the Koala | Jul 23 16:28 |
wallclimber | wasn't 7 originally set to come out in 2010? | Jul 23 16:29 |
schestowitz | Microsoft to post 4Q results after market closes < http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D99K3VV81.htm > "AFTER..." | Jul 23 16:29 |
schestowitz | They drop it like they exit the scene of the crime | Jul 23 16:29 |
schestowitz | Novell threw out the embarrassing docs to investors just before Easter 2007 | Jul 23 16:30 |
schestowitz | People were on vacation, so not many bothered to look | Jul 23 16:30 |
schestowitz | Novell document dump makes it look like a scandal < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=1082 > | Jul 23 16:30 |
schestowitz | Shane and I said the same | Jul 23 16:30 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: no, not 2010 | Jul 23 16:31 |
schestowitz | That would make it more polished | Jul 23 16:31 |
schestowitz | A standard too high for Mcirosoft Windows | Jul 23 16:31 |
schestowitz | They need Service Perks [sic] | Jul 23 16:31 |
Ng | don't people generally post results after the close of the market? | Jul 23 16:31 |
Ng | apple did the other day | Jul 23 16:31 |
fewa | meh its just Vista 7 | Jul 23 16:32 |
wallclimber | hmm, i thought I'd read that 7 was originally scheduled for release in early 2010 | Jul 23 16:32 |
schestowitz | LHC delayed again.. "Leaks have been found in the vacuum of the Large Hadron Collider's insulating layer, causing yet another postponement of its restart from October to November." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/lhc_delay_to_november/ | Jul 23 16:32 |
schestowitz | AT least it's just gasl. Not their Linux PCs there... | Jul 23 16:32 |
schestowitz | Ng: some do | Jul 23 16:32 |
schestowitz | Had it been routine, it would not be worth headlines] | Jul 23 16:33 |
schestowitz | Midday is possib;e | Jul 23 16:33 |
schestowitz | "The same factors depressed Microsoft's earnings in the two previous quarters. In January, after a weak holiday season, Microsoft resorted to its first companywide layoffs.' | Jul 23 16:34 |
schestowitz | They already lowered forecasts | Jul 23 16:34 |
schestowitz | So they can say something like, "Woah! Look at us! We beat the forecast" But that's decoy | Jul 23 16:34 |
schestowitz | Another is to ignore profitability and talk about revenue, which can include borrowings, AFAIK | Jul 23 16:35 |
*Omar87 (n=omar@79.173.214.123.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 16:36 | |
Omar87 | Hi guys. | Jul 23 16:36 |
Omar87 | Did you Dell give up on Linux already? | Jul 23 16:36 |
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 16:36 | |
schestowitz | I've seen their tricks for a while. Here is the report from july 2008: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/07/20/microsoft-quarterly-results/ | Jul 23 16:36 |
schestowitz | Omar87: no, lie | Jul 23 16:36 |
schestowitz | They change models | Jul 23 16:36 |
MinceR | has dell ever really been _for_ linux? | Jul 23 16:36 |
schestowitz | THe Astrosofters seem to claim something else. Dell denies.. and McKenzie said the same here the other day | Jul 23 16:37 |
schestowitz | Dell is crumbling | Jul 23 16:37 |
fewa | Omar87, http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs | Jul 23 16:37 |
MinceR | i guess they could have been until some suits arrived from m$ and had a little discussion of licensing fees | Jul 23 16:37 |
Ng | MinceR: define "for linux"? | Jul 23 16:37 |
MinceR | schestowitz: literally. | Jul 23 16:37 |
MinceR | at least my dell laptop is. | Jul 23 16:37 |
MinceR | Ng: acting for the success of gnu/linux and for supporting its users. | Jul 23 16:37 |
Ng | MinceR: like encouraging hardware makers to provide better drivers for linux? | Jul 23 16:38 |
MinceR | like that | Jul 23 16:38 |
schestowitz | Not literally | Jul 23 16:38 |
Ng | MinceR: then yes, they have :) | Jul 23 16:38 |
schestowitz | He's only in his 50s I think | Jul 23 16:38 |
MinceR | and like providing viable alternatives to paying the m$ tax | Jul 23 16:38 |
MinceR | letting customers to not pay one dollar to m$ while getting dell hardware. | Jul 23 16:38 |
MinceR | of their choice. | Jul 23 16:39 |
*ksbjf has quit ("Page closed") | Jul 23 16:39 | |
schestowitz | For a decent price | Jul 23 16:39 |
Ng | well their linux support has been expanding across their hardware range | Jul 23 16:39 |
schestowitz | No preinstalled junk | Jul 23 16:39 |
schestowitz | Ng: true. | Jul 23 16:39 |
MinceR | Ng: also it would be nice if they didn't hide their linux models, especially outside the US. | Jul 23 16:39 |
MinceR | then again it doesn't matter for me, since i've had enough of their "roadready" build quality. | Jul 23 16:40 |
Ng | sure, parity across geographic regions would be nice from all of the OEMs | Jul 23 16:40 |
Ng | HP only have one model of their Mini Mi netbook here in the UK and it's a fashion version that comes with a designer handbag ;) | Jul 23 16:40 |
MinceR | which was supposed to stand even "the most extreme" physical usage yet it broke from normal everyday use. | Jul 23 16:40 |
Ng | but a thinkpad :) | Jul 23 16:42 |
Ng | -t+y | Jul 23 16:42 |
schestowitz | Obama Backs Off August Health Care Deadline < http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=8154188&page=1 > | Jul 23 16:42 |
schestowitz | They still bet for insurance companies and private power. Shameful. Most important subject int he eyes of US citizens | Jul 23 16:43 |
MinceR | i've bought a thinkpad recently | Jul 23 16:43 |
MinceR | 2 weeks ago, iirc | Jul 23 16:43 |
Ng | they rock, and the linux support tends to be excellent | Jul 23 16:43 |
Ng | if unofficial | Jul 23 16:43 |
schestowitz | Now you just need to find the "think" :-) | Jul 23 16:43 |
MinceR | so far it seems nice. | Jul 23 16:43 |
Ng | which one did you get? | Jul 23 16:43 |
MinceR | (but for that much money it had better be :> ) | Jul 23 16:44 |
Ng | it would take some kind of epic shift in laptop hardware for me to leave the Thinkpad X series :) | Jul 23 16:44 |
MinceR | i prefer the W series :) | Jul 23 16:45 |
schestowitz | Since when does /. put images in the FP? http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/07/22/0424210 | Jul 23 16:46 |
MinceR | they've been doing it for a while | Jul 23 16:47 |
MinceR | occasionally | Jul 23 16:47 |
schestowitz | omg ponies | Jul 23 16:49 |
MinceR | for pony! | Jul 23 16:49 |
MinceR | it's sad that lenovo supports m$ FUD nowadays | Jul 23 16:50 |
MinceR | and provides no way around the m$ tax | Jul 23 16:50 |
schestowitz | Hahah: http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/991_signs.jpg | Jul 23 16:50 |
MinceR | lol | Jul 23 16:51 |
schestowitz | yes, Microsoft took Lenovo from IBM | Jul 23 16:51 |
schestowitz | Metaphorically speaking of course | Jul 23 16:51 |
fewa | Ng, thunderbird cant seem to handle my large archive folder | Jul 23 16:55 |
schestowitz | Forget Clickthrough EULAs; Are There Really Walkby EULAs For NYC Parks? http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090721/0408485607.shtml | Jul 23 16:56 |
fewa | geeze | Jul 23 17:00 |
fewa | what has the world come to | Jul 23 17:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "UK cops threaten to bust woman who videos her boyfriend's search on terrorism charges " http://ping.fm/xdqyP | Jul 23 17:00 | |
fewa | " Kataphraktos | Jul 23 17:04 |
fewa | [#226] | Jul 23 17:04 |
fewa | Wow, the Shake Shack menu really has grown up. In a Macaulay Culkin kind of way." | Jul 23 17:04 |
schestowitz | Omar87: see update in http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/07/22/dell-no-longer-selling-ubuntu-linux-desktop-pcs/ | Jul 23 17:05 |
schestowitz | "UPDATE, July 23, 8:42 a.m. eastern: ComputerWorld reported on July 9 that Dell was sticking with Ubuntu desktops and simply refreshing the PC line. But as of today, the new offering has yet to debut on Dell’s web site." | Jul 23 17:05 |
fewa | what FUD | Jul 23 17:06 |
schestowitz | Gamer Says Sony Violated His 1st Amendment Rights By Banning Him < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090723/0241165629.shtml > <--- Sounds like some of our trolls | Jul 23 17:06 |
schestowitz | Civility is important | Jul 23 17:06 |
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.113.3.160.plusnet.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 17:07 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apple PR scrambles to rescue the company from a big gaffe: http://ping.fm/34OEN | Jul 23 17:09 | |
*pk (n=pk@cpc3-broo3-0-0-cust242.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 17:25 | |
Krenso | is there any programmer? | Jul 23 17:26 |
Krenso | i want to find what libraries not covered by ecma tomboy is using | Jul 23 17:27 |
Krenso | now i do only simple grep "using System" | Jul 23 17:28 |
*faux (n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 17:29 | |
MinceR | i'm a sw developer but i don't code in c# | Jul 23 17:30 |
*tacone has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Jul 23 17:31 | |
*Krenso has quit () | Jul 23 17:31 | |
*Krenso (n=Krenso@apn-77-114-226-250.dynamic.gprs.plus.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 17:32 | |
schestowitz | Hi, faux | Jul 23 17:32 |
schestowitz | Krenso: none | Jul 23 17:33 |
schestowitz | Banshee is the elephant in the room | Jul 23 17:33 |
schestowitz | Does Jim Zemlin always come across as a Charlatan, or does it only seem so to particular people? .. http://linux.com/news/featured-blogs/158-jim-zemlin/29808-linux-paves-way-for-new-open-source-in-america-coalition | Jul 23 17:35 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft will report abysmal results tonight, so racketeering versus Red Hat is still on the table. http://ping.fm/gBTij | Jul 23 17:39 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Glyn Moody showed s series of misconduct from Microsoft and Microsoft, in response, totally neglects to address them. http://ping.fm/pgKus | Jul 23 17:42 | |
Krenso | MinceR, what is sw? I think c# is similar to java, c++. So such skills will help | Jul 23 17:44 |
MinceR | sw stands for software | Jul 23 17:45 |
Krenso | direct3d sugested me to search for foo( | Jul 23 17:45 |
MinceR | and such skills don't help that much when you're enumerating parts of the "standard" library | Jul 23 17:45 |
schestowitz | "That pretty much sums it up. The day Microsoft quits carrying on like a fanatic, paranoid Taliban is the day that other companies and organizations will have an easier time getting along with them. After all, let's not forget who the problem is. It isn't Linux that the US and EU have to keep bringing antitrust actions against." | Jul 23 17:48 |
Krenso | but also objects can be imported | Jul 23 17:48 |
schestowitz | They can | Jul 23 17:49 |
schestowitz | The above is from | Jul 23 17:50 |
Krenso | classes and functions, what else can be used from libraries? | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=who_are_the_real_zealots_part_2&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | Just so that you guys know, sebsebseb is here for Mono (Unity) for all I can tell and he used the link above to daemonise us in front of Byfield | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | <sebsebseb> [20:41] <bruce89> that is tasteless and insulting | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | <sebsebseb> [20:42] <sebsebseb> bruce89: why do you think that? and guess where I got the link from | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | <sebsebseb> [20:42] <bruce89> 1. The Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | <sebsebseb> [20:42] <sebsebseb> yep I was thinking that as well | Jul 23 17:50 |
schestowitz | toxins in this channel... "cj" too | Jul 23 17:51 |
schestowitz | Always seems to sneak in some smears against us in some sites | Jul 23 17:51 |
MinceR | so according to byfield, the talibans are good guys now? | Jul 23 17:52 |
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04 | Jul 23 17:53 | |
ThistleWeb | Sadaam has been both sides of the friend / enemy divide with the US without doing anything different | Jul 23 17:54 |
schestowitz | http://moblinzone.com/blog/322/59/NEC_pledges_WiMAX_software_to_Moblin_Project | Jul 23 17:54 |
schestowitz | Oh oh... | Jul 23 17:54 |
schestowitz | "Henry Kingman" | Jul 23 17:54 |
schestowitz | Is he not editing Linux Devices anymore? | Jul 23 17:54 |
*tacone (n=Adium@151.81.30.69) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 17:54 | |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: not true | Jul 23 17:54 |
schestowitz | [sarcasm] he has always been a friend | Jul 23 17:55 |
schestowitz | [sarcasm] first as puppet | Jul 23 17:55 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jul 23 17:55 |
schestowitz | [sarcasm] then as useful idiot | Jul 23 17:55 |
schestowitz | [sarcasm] then as scapegoat | Jul 23 17:55 |
schestowitz | (taking thew blame for 9/11) | Jul 23 17:55 |
Trials | same with bin ladin, who do you think financed and trained him ? | Jul 23 17:55 |
ThistleWeb | yeah having the Rumsfeild / Sadaam video don't help when Rumssfeild was in charge of sending the troops in | Jul 23 17:55 |
schestowitz | Trials: you're not supposed to know that | Jul 23 17:56 |
schestowitz | The public sure doesn't | Jul 23 17:56 |
Trials | just as sadam did lots of business with Bush Snr and W | Jul 23 17:57 |
ThistleWeb | the US has a habit of making allies with anyone who can promote their agenda regardless of how it impacts on the locals | Jul 23 17:57 |
ThistleWeb | even if they need to back that puppet's enemies later on | Jul 23 17:57 |
Trials | and picking the wrong people | Jul 23 17:58 |
ThistleWeb | they always do | Jul 23 17:58 |
ThistleWeb | you have to wonder at the collective wisdom in the US govt circles, with 2 failed wars in living memory | Jul 23 17:58 |
schestowitz | Letter of Protest to ASUS < http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10013256o-2000498448b,00.htm > | Jul 23 17:58 |
schestowitz | Just two? | Jul 23 17:59 |
schestowitz | What about Afghanistan? | Jul 23 17:59 |
ThistleWeb | most countries learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others, yet the US seem oblivious to learning anything | Jul 23 17:59 |
ThistleWeb | I guess | Jul 23 17:59 |
ThistleWeb | most failures don't happen twice in one lifetime | Jul 23 18:00 |
ThistleWeb | huge failures* | Jul 23 18:00 |
ThistleWeb | fromt he same country | Jul 23 18:00 |
ThistleWeb | but, well, we need to look at them for examples of how the world should be | Jul 23 18:00 |
schestowitz | Well, here's the think | Jul 23 18:00 |
schestowitz | People need choice in election | Jul 23 18:01 |
schestowitz | The problem is that there is no opposition party | Jul 23 18:01 |
ThistleWeb | make up BS excuses to invade a country you fancy the resources of, and call it self defense......."I hit him back first" | Jul 23 18:01 |
schestowitz | [Well... Nader.. ha! | Jul 23 18:01 |
Trials | not to mention the lost war on drugs, war on terror, war on anything we dont like. and the many many totally failed missions. | Jul 23 18:01 |
ThistleWeb | yeah, war on words never go well | Jul 23 18:01 |
schestowitz | "Mission Accomplished" | Jul 23 18:03 |
schestowitz | --GWB, 2004 (2003?) | Jul 23 18:03 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @moltke: Read the sample, want to buy book. I get Kindle for iPhone, sign in, click 'buy'. Error: non-us Visa. Geodiscrimination=>piracy | Jul 23 18:04 | |
ThistleWeb | the problem with a political system built by the elite for the elite, is that the elite will find the solutions to the problems, and fix things yet again in their favour.....and the public get screwed all over again | Jul 23 18:04 |
schestowitz | Healthcare is important | Jul 23 18:04 |
schestowitz | US healthcare makes even the NHS look very decent | Jul 23 18:04 |
ThistleWeb | US healthcare for those who can afford it must be great | Jul 23 18:05 |
ThistleWeb | pity for those who can't | Jul 23 18:05 |
Krenso | I'm going to ask on irc.gnome.org #mono about my concerns | Jul 23 18:05 |
Krenso | i'm curious would they help me | Jul 23 18:06 |
ThistleWeb | at least in the UK you know you get medical treatment when you need it regardless of your ability to pay | Jul 23 18:06 |
Trials | trouble with the US Govmnt is they dont like to increase taxes, and they dont like to decrease spending so they borrow and spend, then borrow some more. to the tune of 10 Trillian and counting. | Jul 23 18:07 |
ThistleWeb | the US govt / corps all like to hold the carrot of "it could be you that's super rich one day, so don't go too hard on us" knowing that the peeps will NEVER be one of them, but will go through life obsessed with the carrot | Jul 23 18:09 |
schestowitz | http://jupiter.samba.org/jupiter-impact.html | Jul 23 18:09 |
*Krenso has quit ("mIRGGI meni puis") | Jul 23 18:09 | |
schestowitz | I cam across this video this morning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNZOjDi_dQ | Jul 23 18:11 |
Trials | yes, and if they simply removed MONEY from being necessary to campain, then it would not be owned by the elite class. If all parties get equil time to put their case | Jul 23 18:11 |
*schestowitz Been watching lots of astronomy videos recently | Jul 23 18:11 | |
ThistleWeb | the US is (or at least was) a place where the super rich flaunted their money | Jul 23 18:12 |
ThistleWeb | it was a badge of honour | Jul 23 18:12 |
ThistleWeb | the UK, the super rich know not to flaunt it too much, the public don't like it | Jul 23 18:12 |
ThistleWeb | not to mention a chain of stores all over the US, is in a whole different league wealth wise to a chain of stores all over the UK | Jul 23 18:13 |
Trials | yes, its not like the beckoms are loud and showoffy | Jul 23 18:14 |
Trials | or the queen, | Jul 23 18:14 |
ThistleWeb | the recession, with peeps like madoff being exposed has maybe changed things a little in the US, for a while at least they're showing some restraint | Jul 23 18:14 |
ThistleWeb | lol | Jul 23 18:14 |
ThistleWeb | like the car bosses, flying in on private jets looking for handouts, which didnt go down well | Jul 23 18:15 |
Trials | good name for that guy, madoff | Jul 23 18:15 |
ThistleWeb | yeah lol | Jul 23 18:15 |
Trials | who's that virgin guy ?? | Jul 23 18:15 |
ThistleWeb | except he didn't, he got caught | Jul 23 18:15 |
ThistleWeb | branson | Jul 23 18:15 |
ThistleWeb | not to be confused with the sauce | Jul 23 18:16 |
Trials | yes, thats him, but its maddoff when he was caught he was actually proud of getting away with it for so long, destroying so manyies lives | Jul 23 18:16 |
ThistleWeb | it's all greed, me me me | Jul 23 18:17 |
Trials | and ofcourse there is that enron guy(s) as well, | Jul 23 18:17 |
ThistleWeb | where you can never have enough money | Jul 23 18:17 |
Trials | greed, yes exactly | Jul 23 18:18 |
ThistleWeb | kenny boy | Jul 23 18:18 |
Trials | Monty burns, "yes, ive got lots of money, but I would give it all up for a little more". | Jul 23 18:18 |
Trials | ken star ? | Jul 23 18:18 |
ThistleWeb | ken leigh | Jul 23 18:18 |
ThistleWeb | of enron | Jul 23 18:19 |
Trials | ahh ok | Jul 23 18:19 |
ThistleWeb | aka kenny boy (dubya's name for him) | Jul 23 18:19 |
ThistleWeb | they were mates | Jul 23 18:19 |
Trials | ken star is someone as well, mabey something to do with the OJ trial. | Jul 23 18:19 |
ThistleWeb | before and during dubya's 8 years of destruction | Jul 23 18:19 |
ThistleWeb | ken star was one of the republican hounds going after clinton | Jul 23 18:20 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: here is where a lot of British wealth is centralised: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild | Jul 23 18:20 |
ThistleWeb | he was the lead attack dog trying to impeach clinton | Jul 23 18:20 |
Trials | ahh ok, so right time frame, wrong thing, your right, | Jul 23 18:20 |
ThistleWeb | schestowitz: the west has developed like that, around us is the world the elite created for themselves, we're just the pawns living in it | Jul 23 18:21 |
schestowitz | Rothschild wealth was estimated at over $6 billion US in 1850. | Jul 23 18:22 |
ThistleWeb | a govt for the people by the people is exactly what we have; except the "people" they had in mind are not us | Jul 23 18:22 |
ThistleWeb | it's "people like them" | Jul 23 18:22 |
ThistleWeb | who can be relied on not to shake the apple cart | Jul 23 18:22 |
ThistleWeb | because they'd lose too | Jul 23 18:22 |
ThistleWeb | a world of favours | Jul 23 18:23 |
ThistleWeb | and loyalty | Jul 23 18:23 |
ThistleWeb | over actual talent and skill | Jul 23 18:23 |
ThistleWeb | where ideas are only good if they further the cause | Jul 23 18:23 |
schestowitz | at 8% interest that's $491,409.0 trillion today | Jul 23 18:23 |
Trials | where can you get 8% on your investments ?? | Jul 23 18:24 |
Trials | (if your name is not maddoff | Jul 23 18:24 |
schestowitz | "today the family grooms the inaudibility and invisibility of its presence as a result, some believe that little is left apart from a great legend - and the Rothschilds are quite content to let legend be their public relations." | Jul 23 18:25 |
schestowitz | Trials: at 5% it's $7.8 trillion | Jul 23 18:25 |
schestowitz | Still a lot of money | Jul 23 18:25 |
Trials | yes, it is, I wish i could find a calculator that gives the equivalent worth of money over time. im sure $1000 in 1890 was worth alot more than $1000 today, I know it does. | Jul 23 18:26 |
Trials | My parents pays $2000 Pound for their first house in 1960 | Jul 23 18:27 |
schestowitz | But commodities count | Jul 23 18:27 |
schestowitz | So the comprisons are irrelevant | Jul 23 18:27 |
schestowitz | You would be better off measuring in units like capita/world capita | Jul 23 18:27 |
ThistleWeb | bbl | Jul 23 18:28 |
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Jul 23 18:28 | |
Trials | I think the best way would be to look at the avarage wage at any time, for a comparison, how long it takes to earn a specific sum of money. | Jul 23 18:28 |
schestowitz | But population size change | Jul 23 18:29 |
Trials | That tells you how much it would cost to employ someone to make something. | Jul 23 18:29 |
schestowitz | Globe's resources stay the same pretty much | Jul 23 18:29 |
schestowitz | So you need to normalise the numbers sensibly. I don't know how..... | Jul 23 18:29 |
schestowitz | Never thought about it. | Jul 23 18:29 |
schestowitz | Population in 1850 was like, what? Half a billion? Maybe 1? | Jul 23 18:30 |
Trials | its all tied up with inflation, | Jul 23 18:30 |
schestowitz | Inflation is an incentive to savers | Jul 23 18:30 |
schestowitz | [and those who hold wealth rather than debt] | Jul 23 18:30 |
Trials | infaltion simply means wages and prices go up in time. its how much is a percentage | Jul 23 18:30 |
schestowitz | Tilt rich people upwards, poor people downwards. | Jul 23 18:31 |
Trials | inflation means over time your money loses value, so saving does not help. | Jul 23 18:31 |
schestowitz | Trials: not sure... | Jul 23 18:31 |
schestowitz | By that definition, there's no inflation | Jul 23 18:31 |
schestowitz | Wages are stagnant, prices go up unless you shop at Wal-Mart or something. | Jul 23 18:32 |
tacone | inflation is the bigger and smarter tax ever conceived. | Jul 23 18:32 |
schestowitz | Trials: no, it does | Jul 23 18:32 |
Trials | there is always inflation, sure sometimes the value is zero, but it usually is around 2 or 3% | Jul 23 18:32 |
schestowitz | But... | Jul 23 18:32 |
schestowitz | You need to put it in savings accounts | Jul 23 18:32 |
tacone | it also encourages people to invest and not save money, as it will become worthless in no time | Jul 23 18:32 |
schestowitz | Not under the bricks | Jul 23 18:32 |
tacone | bank interest usually roughly equal inflations when they aren't less | Jul 23 18:33 |
schestowitz | It's actually a neat way for people to ensure others come to depend on banks | Jul 23 18:33 |
Trials | so you father was paid the same amount as you are ?? I dont think so im sure he got alot less. | Jul 23 18:33 |
Trials | but it still had the same purchasing power as the higher number you get today. | Jul 23 18:33 |
tacone | if there's a dirty plot, is inflaction. | Jul 23 18:33 |
Trials | inflation is not created by anyone or any group or any government its just something that naturally happens. | Jul 23 18:35 |
tacone | an hidden ~3-4% tax on your saved money | Jul 23 18:35 |
schestowitz | Customers don't want Oracle.. http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/168791/oracle_tries_to_ease_concerns_of_virtual_iron_customers.html | Jul 23 18:35 |
tacone | it happens when you produce money | Jul 23 18:35 |
schestowitz | tacone: do what Gates does | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | Set up a 'charity' | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | Take some photos with kids in Africa | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | Invest the money | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | Pay no tax | Jul 23 18:36 |
tacone | i'd rather set up a political party | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | Works for Warren & Bill | Jul 23 18:36 |
tacone | a good business here in italy. | Jul 23 18:36 |
Trials | the charity or any charity does not get him out of paying income tax. | Jul 23 18:36 |
schestowitz | What income? | Jul 23 18:37 |
schestowitz | He's pretending to be semi-retired | Jul 23 18:37 |
schestowitz | Just having teas with world leaders telling them the wonders of Vista7 | Jul 23 18:37 |
Trials | interest off his $$$$ and from his stocks and investments | Jul 23 18:37 |
tacone | i'm still wondering why gates didn't jump yet in politics | Jul 23 18:37 |
schestowitz | He might | Jul 23 18:37 |
tacone | my guess was he'll try to get in in 2012 or 2016 | Jul 23 18:37 |
Trials | im sure he gets an income, and he would certainly have to pay tax on that, all the charity does is get him out of paying tax on the money he gives away. | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | If there's much left | Jul 23 18:38 |
tacone | i thought he was about to, because his presence in MS spots | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | That would be horrific | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Given the criminal past | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | BUT.. | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Watch Clinton... | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | And many other presidents or PMs | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Castro | Jul 23 18:38 |
tacone | i thought he's intent in building public awareness about him | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Betanyahu | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Bush | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | [reelected] | Jul 23 18:38 |
tacone | the charity also will help | Jul 23 18:38 |
schestowitz | Some convicted for crimes | Jul 23 18:39 |
tacone | and leaving MS also helps | Jul 23 18:39 |
schestowitz | Well, the public relations industry runs elections in the US< so.... | Jul 23 18:39 |
Trials | thats why its called public office, and they are public servants. and are elected by the public | Jul 23 18:42 |
Trials | "I did not have public relations with that girl, monica leewinski" | Jul 23 18:43 |
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 18:57 | |
schestowitz | I never heard that joke before ("That's why its called public office"). Good one. | Jul 23 18:59 |
Trials | you forgot nixon | Jul 23 19:02 |
schestowitz | Conviction? | Jul 23 19:02 |
Trials | and its "bush's" | Jul 23 19:03 |
Trials | he was pardoned, was castro convicted ? | Jul 23 19:03 |
schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon | Jul 23 19:03 |
Trials | neither was clinter convicted | Jul 23 19:04 |
Trials | clinten | Jul 23 19:04 |
schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal | Jul 23 19:04 |
schestowitz | Trials: my uncle said there was a Clinton scandal in the past | Jul 23 19:04 |
schestowitz | They usually find s/t if they look deep enough | Jul 23 19:04 |
Trials | yes I know about watergate. I know trickie nickie resigned over it, and the new pres pardoned him. | Jul 23 19:04 |
schestowitz | "The Watergate scandal was an American political scandal during the presidency of Richard Nixon that resulted in the indictment and conviction of several of Nixon's closest advisors, and ultimately in the resignation of the President himself, on August 9, 1974." | Jul 23 19:05 |
fewa | there have been over 40 publically documented attempts at castro's head | Jul 23 19:05 |
fewa | by the CIA | Jul 23 19:05 |
Trials | yes, I know about the watergate thing, | Jul 23 19:05 |
Trials | ive even seen the movie, | Jul 23 19:05 |
Trials | woodward and bernsteen | Jul 23 19:05 |
Trials | and all that, | Jul 23 19:05 |
Trials | musky, and "nixon tapes", CIA, the illegal slush funds. | Jul 23 19:06 |
schestowitz | fewa: they got Che | Jul 23 19:06 |
schestowitz | They assisted some people in Bolivia IIRC | Jul 23 19:07 |
schestowitz | Whether it was justified or not is another question altogether | Jul 23 19:07 |
fewa | Former Clinton aids are being hired to support the coup in Honduras | Jul 23 19:08 |
schestowitz | Twittttttter is sloooooooooooow | Jul 23 19:09 |
schestowitz | aides? | Jul 23 19:09 |
fewa | yes | Jul 23 19:09 |
schestowitz | Maybe they got aids from Monica too | Jul 23 19:09 |
fewa | yes Clinton has aides | Jul 23 19:09 |
schestowitz | Hillary would too | Jul 23 19:09 |
schestowitz | It's venereal | Jul 23 19:09 |
Trials | what other president has left office with the country in surplus ?? | Jul 23 19:10 |
fewa | We joke about Clinton, but we are joking | Jul 23 19:11 |
fewa | lets see | Jul 23 19:11 |
fewa | getting a blow job vs. 2 bloody endless wars | Jul 23 19:11 |
fewa | firing of anybody that says anything | Jul 23 19:12 |
Trials | I would hope so, because he was an alter boy compared to JFK, and he did a good job at running the place. | Jul 23 19:12 |
fewa | NSA warrentless wiretapping | Jul 23 19:12 |
fewa | You could talk about Clinton | Jul 23 19:13 |
fewa | but there was every attempt to prevent people from talking about Bush | Jul 23 19:13 |
schestowitz | Do they matter much? | Jul 23 19:13 |
schestowitz | [The head] | Jul 23 19:13 |
fewa | ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ | Jul 23 19:13 |
schestowitz | They are surrounded by a faction | Jul 23 19:13 |
schestowitz | Clinton had a better team | Jul 23 19:13 |
Trials | I dont so much care about wire taps, if you dont do anything wrong you have little to worry about, its the "special renditions" and backhand Gitmo tricks that stink up the place | Jul 23 19:13 |
fewa | Trials, they go hand in hand | Jul 23 19:14 |
Trials | Clinton had a 3 figure IQ | Jul 23 19:14 |
fewa | wiretapping is differnt from having the data on the record | Jul 23 19:14 |
fewa | they can come up with whatever account they want | Jul 23 19:14 |
fewa | and then pretend like their stuff is evidence | Jul 23 19:14 |
fewa | we saw this all happen with HADOPI politics | Jul 23 19:15 |
Trials | ofcourse, its the high tech method of trumping up charges, but its the same old thing. | Jul 23 19:15 |
fewa | But yes, the effects, the secret prisons and suspension of habeas corpus, are the hallmark | Jul 23 19:16 |
Trials | so is paying people to "find the baddies" and not expecting to just get as many people off the streets as they can find to get their "reward". | Jul 23 19:17 |
fewa | the "reward" is etting lumped in with the others | Jul 23 19:18 |
Trials | Like the iraqi taxi driver, who was driving his taxi and ended up in gitmo for 6 years. | Jul 23 19:18 |
schestowitz | Daniel gives another lad the clown/jester hat: http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/07/21/whos-paying-brett-arends-to-malign-apple/ | Jul 23 19:18 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] plan to go to vagabonds on saturday. am poor. anyone got a *pint* or several to spare? (big drunk puppy dog eyes) | Jul 23 19:39 | |
*dfhk (i=5496eb8f@gateway/web/freenode/x-0ffd2578fc4f4976) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 19:48 | |
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.") | Jul 23 19:52 | |
schestowitz | Byron again shows his long-shown hatred of FOSS: http://seekingalpha.com/article/150518-why-do-enterprise-software-companies-need-an-open-source-front-group | Jul 23 20:01 |
schestowitz | The other day he joked about MIT choosing Excahnge | Jul 23 20:01 |
schestowitz | Later he pretends to be 'in FOSS'... more poison. | Jul 23 20:01 |
*sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 20:03 | |
sebsebseb | hi | Jul 23 20:03 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] freda said a sentence! "plane gone away" the speech therapy should come through by the time she gets a first in english | Jul 23 20:05 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] now playing kaiser chiefs. franz ferdinand wanted to be gang of four when they grew up, bloc party wanted to be ff and kc wanted to be bp | Jul 23 20:06 | |
*lis` (n=lis@pub082136118134.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 20:06 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: I was gonna ask before, who's Freda? | Jul 23 20:08 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Daily Mail in example of political correctness gone stupid: http://is.gd/1Iagh | Jul 23 20:10 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz my 2yo daughter :-) the smartest, cutest and most charming child ever in history (of course) | Jul 23 20:12 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: does she also edit Wikipedia? | Jul 23 20:26 | |
Balrog | schestowitz: did you see the slashdot article about M$' code drop into Linux? | Jul 23 20:26 |
schestowitz | Slashdot? | Jul 23 20:27 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz at present she just pulls keys off laptops and draws on the screen | Jul 23 20:28 | |
schestowitz | Hasn't anyone? did /, point to s/t unusual? | Jul 23 20:28 |
Balrog | http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/23/1327205/Microsofts-Code-Contribution-Due-To-GPL-Violation?art_pos=10 | Jul 23 20:28 |
schestowitz | Yes, I know | Jul 23 20:28 |
Balrog | ...? | Jul 23 20:28 |
schestowitz | Seen it days ago | Jul 23 20:28 |
schestowitz | More articles about it appear | Jul 23 20:28 |
Balrog | hmm ok. | Jul 23 20:28 |
Balrog | yeah, it wasn't a goodwill gesture after all | Jul 23 20:28 |
schestowitz | http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Was_Microsoft_violating_the_GPL_before_deciding_to_embrace_it_51353842.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/ | Jul 23 20:29 |
schestowitz | The Microsoft folks wrote about it by citing the blog with the original claim. | Jul 23 20:29 |
schestowitz | Microsoft: master of spin | Jul 23 20:31 |
schestowitz | "We didn't commit a violation" | Jul 23 20:31 |
schestowitz | "We're just... generous" | Jul 23 20:31 |
fewa | how do i see the announcement? where does it get posted? | Jul 23 20:32 |
fewa | Q4 | Jul 23 20:34 |
schestowitz | At 9:30GMT | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | I think | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | Market close | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | Maybe just after | Jul 23 20:35 |
fewa | it said 4EST | Jul 23 20:35 |
fewa | which is right now | Jul 23 20:35 |
fewa | on Google Finance | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | So in about an hour. Do a Google News search on 'microsoft' | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | Let me know if you see it before me | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | We need earnings number. | Jul 23 20:35 |
schestowitz | Cause Mirosoft will spin to deceive | Jul 23 20:36 |
schestowitz | I'll make a placeholder post for live-blogging it | Jul 23 20:37 |
*magentar has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Jul 23 20:38 | |
fewa | wait EDT | Jul 23 20:39 |
fewa | so right now | Jul 23 20:39 |
*magentar (n=magentar@ip-95-223-204-25.unitymediagroup.de) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 20:39 | |
schestowitz | Placeholder: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ | Jul 23 20:48 |
schestowitz | The press already has articles | Jul 23 20:49 |
schestowitz | But they are embargoed | Jul 23 20:49 |
*crunchy135711 has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715083437]") | Jul 23 20:58 | |
schestowitz | Nothing in the news yet | Jul 23 21:00 |
*schestowitz checks http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/ | Jul 23 21:01 | |
schestowitz | Oh, it's ther | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/jul09/07-23fy09Q4earnings.mspx | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | Whoa!!!!!!1 | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | " Microsoft Corp. today announced revenue of $13.10 billion for the fourth quarter ended June 30, 2009, a 17% decline from the same period of the prior year." | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | Revenue down VERY sharply | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | Let's see earnings | Jul 23 21:01 |
schestowitz | "Operating income, net income and diluted earnings per share for the quarter were $3.99 billion, $3.05 billion and $0.34 per share, which represented declines of 30%, 29% and 26%, respectively, when compared with the prior year period." | Jul 23 21:02 |
*Tallken (n=Tallken@93.102.62.166.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:11 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] According to the Press Release, Microsoft Operating Income Down 30%, Income Down 29%, and Earnings Down 26%. | Jul 23 21:15 | |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ <-response to it was fast | Jul 23 21:15 |
schestowitz | How I make my Ubuntu more beautiful and (even more) usable < http://kennke.org/blog/2009/07/22/how-i-make-my-ubuntu-more-beautiful-and-usable/ > | Jul 23 21:18 |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip68-230-37-218.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:23 | |
*tacone (n=Adium@151.80.128.151) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:27 | |
*krenso (n=Ro@1.pia.abpl.pl) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:28 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @AnthonySteele Geeky ice cube trays http://tinyurl.com/luujr6 | Jul 23 21:30 | |
schestowitz | Why do smart people act like an idiot behind a PC? http://billgoldbergrants.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/why-do-smart-people-act-like-an-idiot-behind-a-pc/ | Jul 23 21:30 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz the world's smallest violin appears to be playing "roll out the barrels" at the news | Jul 23 21:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard that violin ought to get a big sweaty gorilla dancing and prancing | Jul 23 21:32 | |
schestowitz | wallclimber: we need to hurry up with Comes :-) ... before the Microsoft in "COmes vs Microsoft" is gone | Jul 23 21:32 |
wallclimber | Is there something I still need to do? | Jul 23 21:33 |
wallclimber | oh...i get it :) | Jul 23 21:33 |
wallclimber | maybe Microsoft will follow SCO out the door | Jul 23 21:34 |
krenso | hello again | Jul 23 21:35 |
krenso | i was talking with guys on irc.gimp.org#mono | Jul 23 21:36 |
krenso | and they say ms community promise covers .net from 2 to 3.5 | Jul 23 21:37 |
krenso | and that it is written somewhere on ms site | Jul 23 21:37 |
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@64.223.231.148) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:38 | |
krenso | here is my next tomboy investigation http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/tomboy-once-again/ | Jul 23 21:40 |
tacone | so you think tomboy's safe ? | Jul 23 21:41 |
Diablo-D3 | tomboy is "safe" in the sense that USE GODDAMN VIM YOU LAZY BASTARDS | Jul 23 21:42 |
krenso | i haven't said that | Jul 23 21:42 |
Diablo-D3 | seriously, all those postit note apps suck | Jul 23 21:43 |
*jocaferro (i=55f0146a@gateway/web/freenode/x-f19469a262da7760) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 21:43 | |
krenso | i have updated note, added people names | Jul 23 21:43 |
Diablo-D3 | you know what I should do to just end this now? | Jul 23 21:43 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Novo design, o que acham? -> http://is.gd/1Jkb1 | Jul 23 21:44 | |
Diablo-D3 | write an entire desktop environment in java | Jul 23 21:44 |
trmanco | oh boy | Jul 23 21:44 |
jocaferro | Roy, I think I made an error in my last coment. | Jul 23 21:44 |
Diablo-D3 | or something | Jul 23 21:44 |
tacone | krenso: you copy pasted multiple time here http://rofrol.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what-non-ecma-libraries-tomboy-is-using/ | Jul 23 21:44 |
Diablo-D3 | if gnome dies, mono cant hang onto it | Jul 23 21:44 |
Diablo-D3 | and I already have a toolkit interface | Jul 23 21:44 |
Diablo-D3 | eclipse's | Jul 23 21:45 |
jocaferro | Probably due to my horrible laptop I miss a close bracket | Jul 23 21:45 |
Diablo-D3 | I just have to make yet another plugin for it | Jul 23 21:45 |
jocaferro | Could you please correct it or delete it? | Jul 23 21:45 |
jocaferro | Thanks. | Jul 23 21:46 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ updated with reports | Jul 23 21:47 |
schestowitz | Good day for Linux. Microsoft's loss is the gain of Linux in places where Macs don't exist (most of the world) | Jul 23 21:47 |
krenso | tacone, thanks, it's this stupid wordpress editor | Jul 23 21:47 |
schestowitz | jocaferro: let me look | Jul 23 21:48 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: WHO declares swine flu an end in itself http://notnews.today.com/?p=564 (with pic lifted from @utku http://twitpic.com/bbxgg ) | Jul 23 21:49 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz "OEMs! OEMs! OEMs! OEMs!" | Jul 23 21:50 | |
schestowitz | jocaferro: I see what you mean. I'll fix the markup | Jul 23 21:50 |
krenso | here is this famous promise (i'm sure you know this url) http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx | Jul 23 21:50 |
krenso | promise is only for ecma334 4th edition, ecma335 4th edition, ui automation 1.0 | Jul 23 21:51 |
schestowitz | jocaferro:: fixed | Jul 23 21:51 |
krenso | but as we know there are differences with what ms has standarised and their implementation (ms ooxml) | Jul 23 21:52 |
jocaferro | Thanks | Jul 23 21:53 |
krenso | mono people say there is only one condition, that ms could broke promise. "Community Promise cannot be revoked unless you sue Microsoft with a patent claim regarding that technology" | Jul 23 21:54 |
jocaferro | This is great - Microsoft was (still is?) violating GPL | Jul 23 21:54 |
MinceR | 230352 < Diablo-D3> write an entire desktop environment in java | Jul 23 21:54 |
MinceR | and call it zero :> | Jul 23 21:54 |
*dfhk has quit ("Page closed") | Jul 23 21:54 | |
krenso | but what if you implemenation of ecma334 and ecma335 isn't full | Jul 23 21:54 |
jocaferro | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/23/microsoft_hyperv_gpl_violation/ | Jul 23 21:55 |
MinceR | krenso: then it isn't covered by the CP | Jul 23 21:55 |
schestowitz | Like Looking GLass | Jul 23 21:55 |
schestowitz | Java bloat | Jul 23 21:55 |
MinceR | it isn't a "conforming implementation" or wtf they call it then. | Jul 23 21:56 |
schestowitz | That's what you get from a frameowrk called "monkey" | Jul 23 21:56 |
schestowitz | Aspiring to be more primitive species than us homo sapiens | Jul 23 21:56 |
schestowitz | Maybe Mono is a tribute to Microsoft's CEO, who knows... | Jul 23 21:57 |
krenso | "any implementation, to the extent it conforms to one of the Covered Specifications" | Jul 23 21:57 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: well, I very well could | Jul 23 21:58 |
*pk has quit (Client Quit) | Jul 23 21:58 | |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: zero stalled because I never found the right language | Jul 23 21:59 |
MinceR | lol | Jul 23 21:59 |
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 22:00 | |
schestowitz | oiaohm: margins. | Jul 23 22:00 |
schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ | Jul 23 22:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Great Summer for GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/KELfu | Jul 23 22:01 | |
Diablo-D3 | Im not going to respond to that | Jul 23 22:02 |
Diablo-D3 | you know why? | Jul 23 22:02 |
Diablo-D3 | actually, I might, nm | Jul 23 22:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] UK #wikipedia fans: BBC Radio 4 "Bigipedia" starts in 40 mins (11pm BST, 10pm UTC) http://is.gd/1Jl8s | Jul 23 22:03 | |
oiaohm | The Income Statement 4q is a scary read schestowitz. | Jul 23 22:04 |
oiaohm | I do mean scary. | Jul 23 22:04 |
schestowitz | Did you see revenue? | Jul 23 22:04 |
schestowitz | Huge fall | Jul 23 22:04 |
schestowitz | More than previous qtr | Jul 23 22:04 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look Back at How GNU/Linux Came to Being and Succeeding http://ping.fm/48fnn | Jul 23 22:05 | |
oiaohm | Income to share holders halved in the income statement. | Jul 23 22:05 |
schestowitz | Nothing till next report | Jul 23 22:05 |
schestowitz | Not even VIsta 7 | Jul 23 22:05 |
schestowitz | So another similar drop | Jul 23 22:05 |
schestowitz | Oct 2xth | Jul 23 22:06 |
oiaohm | As I said a long time go windows 7 has to be a hit. | Jul 23 22:06 |
*crunchy135711 (n=chatzill@dslb-084-062-045-178.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 22:06 | |
oiaohm | Or MS is in big trouble. | Jul 23 22:06 |
schestowitz | Ys, see Ballmer's talk the other day | Jul 23 22:07 |
oiaohm | The thing I find funny Linux guys are not in full attack yet. | Jul 23 22:07 |
schestowitz | About Vista 7... semi psychotic | Jul 23 22:07 |
*ugufjhfj (n=ugufjhfj@modemcable213.226-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 22:07 | |
schestowitz | oiaohm: how so? | Jul 23 22:07 |
oiaohm | ADS on samba and openchange are not in the market yet. | Jul 23 22:07 |
schestowitz | IBM should start pushing more | Jul 23 22:07 |
schestowitz | Linux to comerce | Jul 23 22:07 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Journal on the Evolution of One GNU/Linux Geek http://ping.fm/qBi0P | Jul 23 22:08 | |
oiaohm | Ie ADS and exhcange done in open source. | Jul 23 22:08 |
oiaohm | That would be a major attack on MS server market. | Jul 23 22:08 |
oiaohm | The attack is coming. Once the Linux guys have control of the business server room complete the battle for business desktop will start. | Jul 23 22:10 |
crunchy135711 | I hope it will happen before I retire :) | Jul 23 22:11 |
schestowitz | oiaohm: sharep*int too | Jul 23 22:11 |
schestowitz | Built to lock in from the centre | Jul 23 22:11 |
oiaohm | sharepoint is already covered. | Jul 23 22:11 |
schestowitz | OK | Jul 23 22:11 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is Falling Behind and Can't Come Back -- Opinion http://ping.fm/e29Xv | Jul 23 22:12 | |
schestowitz | Alfresco and others I guess | Jul 23 22:12 |
oiaohm | Alfesco is a very good equal to sharepoint. | Jul 23 22:13 |
schestowitz | There are two more I know of | Jul 23 22:13 |
schestowitz | But I can't recall their names | Jul 23 22:13 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Gets Air Cursor http://ping.fm/ukXJh | Jul 23 22:13 | |
oiaohm | Alfesco is also know for its rock solid stablity. | Jul 23 22:14 |
oiaohm | That sharepoint and the others are not known for schestowitz. | Jul 23 22:15 |
schestowitz | Sharepoint (latest) is built for what platforms? | Jul 23 22:16 |
schestowitz | WIndows 2008? | Jul 23 22:16 |
schestowitz | (which is less stable than win2003, says Yankee Groups (Microsoft puppet)) | Jul 23 22:16 |
oiaohm | Windows 2008 and 2003 | Jul 23 22:16 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Professional Audiocast from Linux Format People http://ping.fm/w1fQD | Jul 23 22:16 | |
oiaohm | sharepoint it self is depending on a MS database that kinda fails the same way exchange does. | Jul 23 22:17 |
oiaohm | Basically both exchange and sharepoint are not known for there stablity. | Jul 23 22:17 |
schestowitz | Ask LSE... | Jul 23 22:17 |
oiaohm | ADS and Office intergration is what has been holding both up | Jul 23 22:18 |
oiaohm | MS is a huge house of cards. | Jul 23 22:18 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Desktop GNU/Linux Beats Vista 7 (Ahead of Arrival Even) http://ping.fm/xhdAN | Jul 23 22:19 | |
schestowitz | Havr you yet seen breakdown by units for MSFT? | Jul 23 22:19 |
schestowitz | Entertainment and Web must be losing billiobs | Jul 23 22:19 |
krenso | after more talks at #mono, they changed mind, and now ecma334 and ecma335 is equivalent only for .net 2 | Jul 23 22:20 |
krenso | not .net 3, .net 3.5 | Jul 23 22:20 |
krenso | what a mess | Jul 23 22:21 |
tacone | krenso: that was known | Jul 23 22:21 |
schestowitz | Wishful thinking | Jul 23 22:21 |
MinceR | exactly the kind of certainty i look for when searching for a language of choice! | Jul 23 22:21 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] NASA BigView Software Works Only on GNU/Linux Desktops http://ping.fm/mORzZ | Jul 23 22:21 | |
oiaohm | That is why I was laughing about the patent promise krenso | Jul 23 22:22 |
tacone | miguel says clarification is slow but on the way | Jul 23 22:22 |
tacone | i won't hope that much, though | Jul 23 22:22 |
tacone | i like the CP, though | Jul 23 22:22 |
MinceR | i think duke nukem forever will run on the phantom console before that clarification arrives | Jul 23 22:22 |
oiaohm | CP on the ECMA335 is very limiting. | Jul 23 22:22 |
tacone | lol | Jul 23 22:22 |
tacone | duke nukem forever rocks. | Jul 23 22:22 |
MinceR | and it will use the glaze3d gpu | Jul 23 22:22 |
MinceR | and it will store the savegames on winfs | Jul 23 22:22 |
schestowitz | glaze? | Jul 23 22:22 |
MinceR | it was an example of vaporware | Jul 23 22:23 |
schestowitz | WInFS -- real soon now!! Promise. | Jul 23 22:23 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Grip on OEMs Increasingly Weakenes http://ping.fm/u2oC5 | Jul 23 22:25 | |
oiaohm | Not only OEM weakness. | Jul 23 22:37 |
oiaohm | OEM are fighting on the price they are prepared to pay. | Jul 23 22:37 |
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 22:37 | |
MinceR | strange, the recend asus and lenovo issues would make me think that grip has actually increased | Jul 23 22:37 |
schestowitz | Hardly | Jul 23 22:38 |
schestowitz | Just proportionally unchanged | Jul 23 22:38 |
schestowitz | "In after hours trading, Microsoft has lost over 7% of their value. " | Jul 23 22:40 |
schestowitz | Just 7%? | Jul 23 22:40 |
oiaohm | It will take 24 hours for the full effect to be known. | Jul 23 22:41 |
oiaohm | But a 7 percent move quicky is a worry. | Jul 23 22:42 |
trmanco | http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/168947/engineer_microsoft_violated_gpl_before_linux_code_release.html | Jul 23 22:46 |
*Tallken has quit ("Leaving.") | Jul 23 22:46 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Makes Good Progress at Gaming http://ping.fm/6NU7Z http://ping.fm/W5sW3 | Jul 23 22:47 | |
krenso | it was funny to talk with mono guys | Jul 23 22:48 |
*lis` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Jul 23 22:48 | |
krenso | first they said ecma is equivalent of .net 2, .net 3, .net 3.5 | Jul 23 22:48 |
MinceR | we're all on the same side -- we all want to turn gnu/linux into another toy m$ owns and can sell to us! ...oh, wait | Jul 23 22:49 |
oiaohm | Mono guys have had there head in sand krenso | Jul 23 22:49 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.3 RC3 is Released http://ping.fm/DNSgb | Jul 23 22:50 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Engineer: Microsoft Violated GPL Before Linux Code Release: http://is.gd/1JnLS | Jul 23 22:50 | |
krenso | mono implements .net 2.x, ecma334 ecma335 covers .net[2-3.5], doesn't mono need to implement also .net3.5 to be compliant with all required parts? | Jul 23 22:50 |
oiaohm | No matter how much yelling people have know better has been able to get ears out ground. | Jul 23 22:50 |
oiaohm | Mono part implements 3.5 | Jul 23 22:50 |
oiaohm | That is the problem. | Jul 23 22:51 |
krenso | before they were talking that .net >=3 is just addons to 2 | Jul 23 22:51 |
oiaohm | Mono is going to have to split there runtime. | Jul 23 22:51 |
oiaohm | Lot of developers are not going to be happy stuck 2 | Jul 23 22:51 |
krenso | then finally some said it: i.e. ecma 335 version 4 is equivalent to .net 2.0 (since the "core" stuff in 2.0 is the same as in 3.5). ecma 334 version 4 is equivalent to c# version 2 | Jul 23 22:51 |
krenso | and then i heard it: mono is not explicitly covered against patent infringement calls from microsoft if its specific implementation of features from .net 3+ violates one of microsoft's method patents. | Jul 23 22:52 |
Diablo-D3 | woah woah woah | Jul 23 22:52 |
Diablo-D3 | rewind | Jul 23 22:52 |
Diablo-D3 | [06:00:34] <schestowitz> "In after hours trading, Microsoft has lost over 7% of their value. " | Jul 23 22:52 |
MinceR | mono developers don't care, they'll just keep using everything and claim it's safe | Jul 23 22:52 |
Diablo-D3 | STOP! DONT BE A FAG! Ignore after hours trading! | Jul 23 22:52 |
oiaohm | Its cracking up MinceR | Jul 23 22:53 |
Diablo-D3 | take my advice peopl | Jul 23 22:53 |
oiaohm | The need for CP showed a lot that coverage was required | Jul 23 22:53 |
Diablo-D3 | after hours trading can go up and down very quickly because the rest of the US is not trading | Jul 23 22:53 |
Diablo-D3 | its only really really rich people and institutions who have access to that | Jul 23 22:54 |
MinceR | there's no need for CP, only for a proper patent license | Jul 23 22:54 |
MinceR | but that won't happen | Jul 23 22:54 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fedora 12 Already Available for Testers (No Mono This Time) http://ping.fm/uaYm1 | Jul 23 22:54 | |
oiaohm | Not exactly. | Jul 23 22:55 |
schestowitz | Diablo-D3: stop using curse words | Jul 23 22:55 |
schestowitz | You spoil the channel this way | Jul 23 22:55 |
oiaohm | I am not really rich but I have access to rapid trading Diablo-D3. | Jul 23 22:55 |
Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: then please, stop saying/repeating stupid things | Jul 23 22:55 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: you dont have access to after hours, however | Jul 23 22:55 |
schestowitz | You do | Jul 23 22:55 |
oiaohm | But most people and institutions take 24 hours for blance sheets to sink in. | Jul 23 22:55 |
*_Goblin (n=root@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 22:56 | |
_Goblin | hi all... | Jul 23 22:56 |
schestowitz | Hil, _Goblin | Jul 23 22:56 |
Diablo-D3 | I can issue a trade at any time I want | Jul 23 22:56 |
schestowitz | You have a demise to blog maybe? | Jul 23 22:56 |
_Goblin | just got in from work :( | Jul 23 22:56 |
Diablo-D3 | but its only executed when the market is open | Jul 23 22:56 |
Diablo-D3 | remember, Im the only one in here who regularly trades | Jul 23 22:56 |
_Goblin | trades what? | Jul 23 22:56 |
oiaohm | I have equal access to a big companies. Reason I am in a major share trading group. | Jul 23 22:56 |
schestowitz | _Goblin: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/07/23/microsoft-results-analysis-09/ | Jul 23 22:56 |
Diablo-D3 | _Goblin: stocks | Jul 23 22:56 |
oiaohm | Incorrect Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 22:56 |
_Goblin | Roy: Cheers... | Jul 23 22:56 |
*jocaferro has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) | Jul 23 22:57 | |
krenso | i love this strategic move: <them>ecma equivalent of .net[2-3.5], <me>promise covers only implementations compliant with all of the required parts, but mono doesn't implements .net >2 <them>ecma is equivalent of .net 2. .net 3.x are just addons | Jul 23 22:57 |
_Goblin | yep...wrong Diablo....Ill explain (if you wish) when I return from reading the article. | Jul 23 22:57 |
Diablo-D3 | wrong what? | Jul 23 22:57 |
Diablo-D3 | after hours trading does not matter | Jul 23 22:57 |
Diablo-D3 | now, if its still the same price when the market opens tommorow, _then_ it matters | Jul 23 22:58 |
oiaohm | Direct trading. | Jul 23 22:58 |
oiaohm | I do have that option Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 22:58 |
schestowitz | krenso: yes, It'sATrap(C) | Jul 23 22:58 |
schestowitz | Diablo-D3: projective | Jul 23 22:58 |
schestowitz | See Yahoo Finance for example | Jul 23 22:58 |
_Goblin | Microsoft Operating Income Down 30%, Income Down 29%, and Earnings Down 26% - ouch... | Jul 23 22:59 |
_Goblin | looks like Ballmers blown the chance to get his perspiration problem sorted at a private clinic. | Jul 23 23:00 |
oiaohm | Funny reason I am part of the share group. Is they are one of the few places here that give interest on a working account. | Jul 23 23:00 |
krenso | i'm very angry with what they've done in Russia with their parner BSI | Jul 23 23:00 |
_Goblin | he'll have to use the NHS with figures like that. | Jul 23 23:00 |
oiaohm | krenso: its hurting them. | Jul 23 23:00 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: bah | Jul 23 23:00 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: 99.9% of america cant do that | Jul 23 23:00 |
oiaohm | Keep on dumping software keep on slowly killing the company. | Jul 23 23:01 |
oiaohm | Because people no longer value the software. | Jul 23 23:01 |
schestowitz | krenso: yes, I wrote about it | Jul 23 23:01 |
Diablo-D3 | btw, to be honest | Jul 23 23:01 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft was never worth investing in | Jul 23 23:01 |
Diablo-D3 | maybe 30 years ago | Jul 23 23:01 |
Diablo-D3 | but not now | Jul 23 23:01 |
_Goblin | oiaohm: I think though that could save them....too many fingers in too many pies.. | Jul 23 23:01 |
oiaohm | That is the funny part. | Jul 23 23:01 |
_Goblin | I think MS cant stand the thought of anyone doing anything better than them. | Jul 23 23:01 |
_Goblin | and thats maybe the problem. | Jul 23 23:01 |
krenso | and now this attack on rms | Jul 23 23:01 |
schestowitz | Sony, Google, Apple.. | Jul 23 23:02 |
oiaohm | Diablo-D3: we have some americans in our trading group. | Jul 23 23:02 |
oiaohm | Because the usa trading groups don't offer it. | Jul 23 23:02 |
*tacone (n=Adium@151.81.15.137) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 23:02 | |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft needs diplomacy | Jul 23 23:02 |
Diablo-D3 | even I'd worth for them if they gave me full control of the company | Jul 23 23:02 |
oiaohm | Diplomacy cannot undo pass mistakes that are in peoples mind. | Jul 23 23:03 |
oiaohm | Microsoft name might be that far damaged that the name is not recoverable. | Jul 23 23:03 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: not at all | Jul 23 23:03 |
Diablo-D3 | I can use open source to save the company | Jul 23 23:03 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Latest KDE4 Makes Kubuntu GNU/Linux Work Well http://ping.fm/5DTQM | Jul 23 23:04 | |
Diablo-D3 | which also means microsoft has to give up most of it's patent war chest | Jul 23 23:04 |
oiaohm | Diablo-D3: lack of trust out there. | Jul 23 23:04 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: its no longer an issue of trust | Jul 23 23:04 |
oiaohm | Will not go away simply. | Jul 23 23:04 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft will be forced to do certain actions, or they will die | Jul 23 23:04 |
Diablo-D3 | no one in the company has the balls to do those actions | Jul 23 23:04 |
oiaohm | Problem is redhat and others could gain from any MS open source effort. | Jul 23 23:04 |
krenso | i think we also needs diplomacy: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Roy_Schestowitz_banned_from_Google_Groups http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/93nc6/could_we_get_this_spammer_blocked_please/ | Jul 23 23:04 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Ubuntu One http://ping.fm/ZIQGD | Jul 23 23:04 | |
oiaohm | So leaving MS still dead in the water Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:05 |
MinceR | the m$ brand is a liability now | Jul 23 23:05 |
MinceR | imo | Jul 23 23:05 |
oiaohm | Good diplomacy you are looking at years to turn the damage they have done around Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:05 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: good diplomacy means destroying your enemy and them loving you for it anyhow | Jul 23 23:05 |
oiaohm | Problem is they should have started the good diplomacy about 4 years ago. | Jul 23 23:05 |
schestowitz | krenso: we have nothing to do with that person who they want banned | Jul 23 23:06 |
Diablo-D3 | I do believe Microsoft can be saved | Jul 23 23:06 |
schestowitz | As for GOogle Groups, I don't do that | Jul 23 23:06 |
schestowitz | It's called USENET | Jul 23 23:06 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: what's the point? | Jul 23 23:06 |
Diablo-D3 | but it does require removing people who simply are too old to lead. | Jul 23 23:06 |
schestowitz | Google can do as they please | Jul 23 23:06 |
oiaohm | I don't believe MS has the time to save self Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:06 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: what of value do they have? | Jul 23 23:06 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: because with microsoft, the world can be ushered into a new era of efficiency | Jul 23 23:06 |
Diablo-D3 | the name itself is a useful tool | Jul 23 23:06 |
oiaohm | Not really Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:06 |
MinceR | what | Jul 23 23:06 |
MinceR | what has m$ have to do with efficiency? | Jul 23 23:07 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: nothing. thats the great part. | Jul 23 23:07 |
oiaohm | Google and Orcale have stronger and better trusted brands Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:07 |
krenso | why is lefty comming here? | Jul 23 23:07 |
schestowitz | To bait | Jul 23 23:07 |
MinceR | and what's the name good for? only their cult believes that their products are any good | Jul 23 23:07 |
schestowitz | For dirt to troll with | Jul 23 23:07 |
Diablo-D3 | imagine, a new version of windows that is based on linux or bsd | Jul 23 23:07 |
Diablo-D3 | and is 100% open source | Jul 23 23:07 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: pointless. | Jul 23 23:07 |
oiaohm | Still be hated. | Jul 23 23:07 |
MinceR | might as well be called something that doesn't imply it's a sack of shit. | Jul 23 23:07 |
oiaohm | Other companies have tried that Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:07 |
Diablo-D3 | well yeah, I'd kill the windows brand | Jul 23 23:07 |
oiaohm | Outcome is known. | Jul 23 23:07 |
Diablo-D3 | I never liked the name windows | Jul 23 23:07 |
MinceR | i'd kill the m$ brand too | Jul 23 23:07 |
oiaohm | Failed distribution. | Jul 23 23:07 |
MinceR | same thing as windows | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | the MS brand would stay | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | all the tech nicked by the other distributions Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd rebrand it, sure | Jul 23 23:08 |
MinceR | what for? | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | but I'd keep the name | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | MS brand is worthless. | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | Worse than worthless. | Jul 23 23:08 |
MinceR | in what way does the microsoft brand stand for something that isn't shitty and evil? | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | I'm not entirely biased atm | Jul 23 23:08 |
trmanco | http://climenole.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/linus-torvald-quote-of-the-day/ | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | I'm thinking with my wallet here | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | You have to remove its link to shitty and evil Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:08 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: I could do that in 2 years. | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | From the brand. | Jul 23 23:08 |
MinceR | removing that link costs resources | Jul 23 23:08 |
oiaohm | You only have about 1. | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft has a shitload of money to burn | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | and you can spare all that trouble by simply starting with a clean slate and a new name | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | like i said, it's a liability | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | it has negative value | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: no | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | it's garbage | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | to say its a liability alone is wrong | Jul 23 23:09 |
fewa | examplegood quote | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | most people run a microsoft product | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | the most profitable way you can handle that brand is throwing it away | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | hated or not | Jul 23 23:09 |
fewa | *good quote | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | they run it | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | and they _keep_ running it | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | they don't know, they don't care | Jul 23 23:09 |
oiaohm | At current fall rate they will not be making profit in 4 more quaters. | Jul 23 23:09 |
MinceR | they never chose to do so | Jul 23 23:09 |
Diablo-D3 | those people have been locked in | Jul 23 23:10 |
krenso | is lefty so stupid, or he is connected with ms? | Jul 23 23:10 |
Diablo-D3 | btw, this entire argument is a tad moot | Jul 23 23:10 |
oiaohm | so if you cannot turn minds in 2 years you will not have any more money to be dumping to correct image Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:10 |
krenso | gnome infected, ubuntu infected | Jul 23 23:10 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft will never hire someone with a clue | Jul 23 23:10 |
MinceR | those people aren't going to consciously buy your product just because you happen to be using a brand they never cared about, but were forced to buy | Jul 23 23:10 |
krenso | what about fedora? | Jul 23 23:10 |
fewa | Linux is a pragmatist, and refuses to deal with specific actions he doesn't like or are unproductive, he does not rate any groups of individuals simply by their affiliations. | Jul 23 23:10 |
fewa | well thats a little lofty | Jul 23 23:10 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: it wont matter, we wont even have that many developers working for us | Jul 23 23:10 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: if I ran microsoft, I'd fire at least half the employees | Jul 23 23:10 |
oiaohm | MS does not have enough developers that is part of the problem Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:11 |
MinceR | Linus is naive | Jul 23 23:11 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft doesnt have enough _clueful_ developers | Jul 23 23:11 |
fewa | But he focuses on being productive, instead of morally right | Jul 23 23:11 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd probably fire most of the developers | Jul 23 23:11 |
MinceR | microsoft has developers? | Jul 23 23:11 |
fewa | MinceR, yes, many developers disagree with him too | Jul 23 23:11 |
oiaohm | MS is already doing that Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:11 |
fewa | Alan Cox for example | Jul 23 23:11 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd start hiring people out of the foss realm | Jul 23 23:11 |
trmanco | http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha3 | Jul 23 23:11 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd probably buy redhat too | Jul 23 23:11 |
oiaohm | have you not seen all the departments MS has been closing Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:11 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 5 Reasons Why Linux-powered Phones Are Ahead of iPhone http://ping.fm/jozVp | Jul 23 23:11 | |
MinceR | giving m$ more ways to attack FLOSS is not pragmatic in any way | Jul 23 23:12 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: yes, and its not enough | Jul 23 23:12 |
fewa | and the 30% revenue drop | Jul 23 23:12 |
oiaohm | Unlikely you could pull a buy of redhat off. | Jul 23 23:12 |
fewa | the stock dropped 8% today | Jul 23 23:12 |
Diablo-D3 | they need to fire people at the top too | Jul 23 23:12 |
oiaohm | Because you would have to out bid IBM. | Jul 23 23:12 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: that would kill red hat | Jul 23 23:12 |
Diablo-D3 | that reminds me | Jul 23 23:12 |
oiaohm | IBM has tried a few times to by Redhat and decided not to go hostile. | Jul 23 23:12 |
Diablo-D3 | I would have to call up IBM | Jul 23 23:12 |
oiaohm | IBM hates MS. | Jul 23 23:12 |
schestowitz | The Linus argument is flawed | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | <me> Hi, IBM, I'm the new head of Microsoft. Lets be friends. | Jul 23 23:13 |
oiaohm | Only uses MS for proft. | Jul 23 23:13 |
schestowitz | IBM does not attack Linux | Jul 23 23:13 |
schestowitz | Microsoft does | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | <ibm> Do you like Linux? | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | <me> I lurrrrrrv Linux. | Jul 23 23:13 |
oiaohm | Nop MS has already done that to IBM before and back stabed them. | Jul 23 23:13 |
schestowitz | So his analogy is erroneous | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | <ibm> best friends forever <3 | Jul 23 23:13 |
MinceR | i doubt IBM would care in any way | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Jul 23 23:13 |
oiaohm | You basically with the MS brand will have no trust Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | bill gates back stabbed them | Jul 23 23:13 |
MinceR | their attitude towards personal computing has always been "we don't give a fuck" | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | Im not bill gates | Jul 23 23:13 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: they didn't care | Jul 23 23:13 |
oiaohm | Baller did as well. | Jul 23 23:13 |
Diablo-D3 | okay, then | Jul 23 23:13 |
MinceR | they could have killed m$, yet they let m$ flourish and rake in the cash | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | if you think microsoft is dead | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | all of you can give me money | Jul 23 23:14 |
oiaohm | Selling software at higher price to IBM than others they were competing with. | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | and Ill go start a new company | Jul 23 23:14 |
MinceR | we can, but we won't | Jul 23 23:14 |
oiaohm | MS best option could be rebirth. | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | Ill put roy up somewhere in the upper management =P | Jul 23 23:14 |
oiaohm | Ie kill brand completely. | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | seriously though | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | I do believe microsoft can be saved | Jul 23 23:14 |
Diablo-D3 | it _does_ start with firing nearly everything and killing all the known products | Jul 23 23:15 |
oiaohm | It could be saved if you have 10 years to correct image. | Jul 23 23:15 |
Diablo-D3 | it _also_ requires going 100% open source | Jul 23 23:15 |
oiaohm | MS has to rebuild back up trust and it will take about that long. | Jul 23 23:15 |
Diablo-D3 | and it _also_ requires hiring everyone. | Jul 23 23:15 |
oiaohm | Even going open source due to MS patent threats MS will not be trust quicky. | Jul 23 23:15 |
Diablo-D3 | I wonder if that rich dude behind ubuntu would work for me | Jul 23 23:15 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Jul 23 23:16 |
Diablo-D3 | the patents will be destroyed | Jul 23 23:16 |
oiaohm | There will be the thing in back of mind what is trick. | Jul 23 23:16 |
Diablo-D3 | they're a liability | Jul 23 23:16 |
oiaohm | After all the tricks MS has pulled removing that is going to be hard. | Jul 23 23:16 |
Diablo-D3 | of course it will be hard | Jul 23 23:16 |
Diablo-D3 | but it can be done | Jul 23 23:16 |
Diablo-D3 | problem is, microsoft _wants_ to die | Jul 23 23:16 |
oiaohm | 2 years is way to short. | Jul 23 23:16 |
oiaohm | It would be a 10 years slog. | Jul 23 23:17 |
oiaohm | to remove mind problem. | Jul 23 23:17 |
oiaohm | MS most likely does not have that long. | Jul 23 23:17 |
Diablo-D3 | I think it could be done in 2. | Jul 23 23:17 |
*parolang (n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jul 23 23:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Microsoft 3Q profits drop 39% Shares drop 7.7% $1.97 in after hours http://is.gd/1JpcT http://is.gd/1Jpfj Compare with RH http://is.gd/1Jpnc | Jul 23 23:17 | |
Diablo-D3 | I think I'd also have a long conversation with Steve Jobs as well | Jul 23 23:17 |
Diablo-D3 | now, remember, I do say, atm, microsoft is not worth investing in | Jul 23 23:18 |
Diablo-D3 | this has to change. | Jul 23 23:18 |
oiaohm | You are underestermating ammount of work required Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:18 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hacao Linux Put to the Test on Sub-notebooks http://ping.fm/4Cxu3 | Jul 23 23:18 | |
schestowitz | Is that a type? | Jul 23 23:19 |
krenso | there is also one interesting thing: after i showed them what i've greped from tomboy source http://dpaste.com/70644/ | Jul 23 23:19 |
schestowitz | Should say 29% | Jul 23 23:19 |
schestowitz | Not 39% | Jul 23 23:19 |
oiaohm | IBM HP and Orcale is not going to forgive simply. | Jul 23 23:19 |
oiaohm | And they are richer than MS. | Jul 23 23:19 |
krenso | they say: robertj: krenso: “using Something” does not break any patents and it does not need any patent covenant. | Jul 23 23:19 |
krenso | directhex: krenso, the three ECMA libraries contain several namespaces. a “using” statement refers to a namespace, not a library | Jul 23 23:19 |
krenso | are they right? | Jul 23 23:19 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: actually, I'd start business deals with oracle and sun | Jul 23 23:19 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Correction: Microsoft drop 29%. Blame on slowing computing market. | Jul 23 23:19 | |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: I'm very interested in sun's hardware platform | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | Sun will be gone Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | Merged into Orcale. | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | not at all, no | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | So Orcale does not need you at all. | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | oracle isn't doing it that way | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | Orcale is going that way. | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | nope | Jul 23 23:20 |
parolang | schestowitz: Hey, I know this might be strange to ask, but can I write a post to your blog? I want to provide a more moderate voice in defense of free software. Of course I'll send it to you and you can do with it what you want. | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | It is why Orcale aquired sun. | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | it seems oracle is actually shifting the other way | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | For custom processor chips. | Jul 23 23:20 |
oiaohm | Matched to there database. | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Jul 23 23:20 |
Diablo-D3 | for java. | Jul 23 23:20 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Lighter and Better Sub-notebooks with GNU/Linux Only Are Coming http://ping.fm/sNaBQ | Jul 23 23:21 | |
fewa | what about POWER7? | Jul 23 23:21 |
Diablo-D3 | oracle is a very big java shop | Jul 23 23:21 |
oiaohm | No java is a smoke screen. | Jul 23 23:21 |
schestowitz | parolang: sure, will be glad to | Jul 23 23:21 |
oiaohm | Sun has a java cpu Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:21 |
Diablo-D3 | man, where the fuck do you people get your information | Jul 23 23:21 |
parolang | schestowitz: email address? | Jul 23 23:21 |
Diablo-D3 | seriously | Jul 23 23:21 |
oiaohm | Seriously | Jul 23 23:21 |
Diablo-D3 | its like bizzaro land in here sometimes | Jul 23 23:21 |
schestowitz | roy at schestowitz com | Jul 23 23:21 |
oiaohm | One of the best platform for speed of java owns to sun Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:21 |
parolang | okay, will see what I can do | Jul 23 23:21 |
schestowitz | Thanks. | Jul 23 23:21 |
oiaohm | Orcale is aquire eveyrthing for great java performance from top to bottom Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:22 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: this is what I said | Jul 23 23:22 |
oiaohm | So to Orcale MS has nothing to offer. | Jul 23 23:22 |
Diablo-D3 | but oracle isnt killing the sun name | Jul 23 23:22 |
oiaohm | Including hardware. | Jul 23 23:22 |
Diablo-D3 | if anything, they are bolstering it | Jul 23 23:22 |
fewa | didnt they write a new java garbage collector? | Jul 23 23:22 |
fewa | that they are charging for? | Jul 23 23:23 |
Diablo-D3 | fewa: no, sun did | Jul 23 23:23 |
oiaohm | Sun will become a sub department of Orcale | Jul 23 23:23 |
Diablo-D3 | fewa: and its free | Jul 23 23:23 |
oiaohm | Like every other company Orcale has aquired Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:23 |
Diablo-D3 | fewa: the G1 GC is coming out in java 7 and future versions of java 6 | Jul 23 23:23 |
oiaohm | There will only be 1 upper management. | Jul 23 23:23 |
krenso | compare logs for tomboy and gnote | Jul 23 23:23 |
krenso | http://git.gnome.org/cgit/gnote/log/ | Jul 23 23:23 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: yes, there will be only 1 upper management BUT | Jul 23 23:23 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: thats going to be a merged version of oracle's and sun's AND | Jul 23 23:23 |
krenso | http://git.gnome.org/cgit/tomboy/log/ | Jul 23 23:23 |
krenso | one vs many | Jul 23 23:23 |
oiaohm | No Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:24 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: sun has a lot of departments that are being shuffled into the stack that has oracle's | Jul 23 23:24 |
fewa | krenso, wow | Jul 23 23:24 |
oiaohm | Oracle upper management is not taken on Sun personal. | Jul 23 23:24 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: sun keeps building sun servers, sun keeps making java | Jul 23 23:24 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: sun keeps doing solaris | Jul 23 23:24 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: sun keeps doing virtualbox | Jul 23 23:24 |
oiaohm | As a sub department. | Jul 23 23:24 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: now, what I _hope_ dies is zfs | Jul 23 23:24 |
oiaohm | Like sleepcat | Jul 23 23:24 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux CTO Recommends Linux-based EBook Readers http://ping.fm/9NTqZ | Jul 23 23:25 | |
Diablo-D3 | brtfs is a superior solution to zfs | Jul 23 23:25 |
Diablo-D3 | I hope sun's new mysql dies too | Jul 23 23:25 |
oiaohm | Lot 20 other companies Orcale has taken in Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:25 |
oiaohm | lot/like | Jul 23 23:25 |
Diablo-D3 | oracle never ate a company this big | Jul 23 23:25 |
Ng | Diablo-D3: btrfs isn't stable yet, that's a pretty massively inferior point ;) | Jul 23 23:25 |
oiaohm | They have eaten equal before Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:25 |
oiaohm | Just made up of multiable small companies. | Jul 23 23:25 |
Diablo-D3 | sun is bigger than most people realize | Jul 23 23:26 |
Diablo-D3 | they just got a really damned good deal on it | Jul 23 23:26 |
*fewa wants brtfs | Jul 23 23:26 | |
Diablo-D3 | Im kicking IBM for not buying Sun | Jul 23 23:26 |
oiaohm | And orcale has been eating a lot of companies. | Jul 23 23:26 |
*MinceR wants the anti-linux sun people punished | Jul 23 23:26 | |
schestowitz | Peoplesoft | Jul 23 23:26 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: there arent many anymore | Jul 23 23:26 |
Diablo-D3 | look at who runs the opensolaris project now | Jul 23 23:26 |
oiaohm | The aquirement is hiding how much income Orcale is really making Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:26 |
krenso | i also want nilfs | Jul 23 23:26 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: so? | Jul 23 23:26 |
Ng | opensolaris should definitely die ;) | Jul 23 23:26 |
Diablo-D3 | opensolaris needs to be worked on harder | Jul 23 23:27 |
oiaohm | Orcale has company intergation down to a fine art. | Jul 23 23:27 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: i don't know who does, i don't care about slowlaris | Jul 23 23:27 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: the founder of Debian. | Jul 23 23:27 |
oiaohm | Number 1 don't put aquire company in control. | Jul 23 23:27 |
fewa | MinceR, yeah they FUD linux | Jul 23 23:27 |
oiaohm | Number 2 make aquired company sub department. | Jul 23 23:27 |
Diablo-D3 | and btw, brtfs is "beta" in linux terms | Jul 23 23:27 |
oiaohm | this way you don't have board fights. | Jul 23 23:27 |
MinceR | i've put it in that box where i keep all the ancient, dead or dying unixes that are mostly notable because of their broken/outdated termcap databases ;) | Jul 23 23:27 |
Diablo-D3 | its actually most worth using | Jul 23 23:27 |
Diablo-D3 | its no worse than zfs fuse. | Jul 23 23:27 |
MinceR | ("xterm? what's that? DURR") | Jul 23 23:27 |
krenso | why google's chromium is in c++ not java/c#? | Jul 23 23:27 |
krenso | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/623062/why-was-googles-chrome-browser-written-almost-entirely-in-c-and-not-c-or-java/ | Jul 23 23:28 |
oiaohm | Each department has to make profit. | Jul 23 23:28 |
Diablo-D3 | krenso: are you retarded? its webkit based | Jul 23 23:28 |
tacone | Diablo-D3: behave. | Jul 23 23:28 |
oiaohm | Only the main board of orcale can do outside deals Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:28 |
MinceR | krenso: not c# nor java because one of its basic ideas is process magic | Jul 23 23:28 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: I think you're missing something | Jul 23 23:28 |
MinceR | can't do that if you also have to mind a vm doing stuff under you :> | Jul 23 23:28 |
tacone | i can't see google using mono anytime soon | Jul 23 23:28 |
krenso | i'm not asking, i know why | Jul 23 23:28 |
krenso | but there are some nice answers | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: if I was the head of micrsoft, I'd buy servers from sun and put microsoft linux/bsd/whatever on it | Jul 23 23:29 |
tacone | it's not java because its main selling point is speed | Jul 23 23:29 |
Ng | Diablo-D3: xenix? ;) | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | Ng: something new | Jul 23 23:29 |
MinceR | nah | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd also kill .net | Jul 23 23:29 |
oiaohm | Diablo-D3: Orcale again. Selling stuff don't make you there friend. | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | its worthless slow shit | Jul 23 23:29 |
MinceR | microsoft linux is marketed under names like "suse" and "xandros" now | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no, it makes you their best friend | Jul 23 23:29 |
oiaohm | No. | Jul 23 23:29 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Openbytes 1st birthday is on August 8th.... Can't believe in a few weeks I have been running it for a year... | Jul 23 23:29 | |
Diablo-D3 | I'd be their largest customer. | Jul 23 23:29 |
Diablo-D3 | oracle loves money | Jul 23 23:30 |
oiaohm | Even if you spend most of MS worth you still would not be Orcales Largest customer. | Jul 23 23:30 |
oiaohm | That is your problem. | Jul 23 23:30 |
Diablo-D3 | I dont know about that | Jul 23 23:31 |
oiaohm | MS is big in IT . | Jul 23 23:31 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: seriously, quit thinking so negative | Jul 23 23:31 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft can be saved | Jul 23 23:31 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft simply doesnt want it | Jul 23 23:31 |
fewa | no they cant | Jul 23 23:31 |
MinceR | it simply isn't worth it | Jul 23 23:31 |
oiaohm | But Orcale sells to a lot of industrys with larger budgets than MS can put up. | Jul 23 23:31 |
fewa | they will make more money not being saved | Jul 23 23:31 |
Diablo-D3 | fewa: nope | Jul 23 23:31 |
Diablo-D3 | microsoft will be dead in 10 years | Jul 23 23:31 |
Ng | oiaohm: like governments :) | Jul 23 23:32 |
oiaohm | You are thinking MS is big. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no, you're thinking my plan is small | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | Im not buying the servers for microsoft | Jul 23 23:32 |
fewa | they can either run themselves into the ground or reform | Jul 23 23:32 |
oiaohm | Compare to IBM and Orcale make MS look like small fish. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | Im buying them to sell them to industries and governments. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Ng | they won't be dead in 10 years, they have too much cash/revenue for that | Jul 23 23:32 |
oiaohm | Neither IBM or Orcale want middle men. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | of course they dont | Jul 23 23:32 |
Ng | they'll just be like IBM, weak and irrelevant to most people :) | Jul 23 23:32 |
oiaohm | They want to sell pure direct. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | anyhow, Im tired of talking about this | Jul 23 23:32 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Adobe's 'Open Source' Still Put to Doubt http://ping.fm/KHE8g | Jul 23 23:32 | |
oiaohm | You would just become a target to destory. | Jul 23 23:32 |
Diablo-D3 | you're obviously too anti-microsoft | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | I hate microsoft too | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | I hate .net | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | I hate mono | Jul 23 23:33 |
krenso | tacone, how is solang? | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | I hate windows | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | I even hate the xbox | Jul 23 23:33 |
oiaohm | No I am not exact 100 anti. | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | but I do believe it can be salvaged | Jul 23 23:33 |
MinceR | what is there to m$ to like? | Jul 23 23:33 |
oiaohm | The tatic you are saying has no legs. | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: the fact they control 90% of the desktop | Jul 23 23:33 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: windows is everywhere but enterprise | Jul 23 23:33 |
MinceR | they're a parasite sucking the life out of the industry i work in | Jul 23 23:33 |
oiaohm | MS has to go head to head with companies wanting to be a solution provide. | Jul 23 23:33 |
oiaohm | Ie IBM and Orcale. | Jul 23 23:33 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: what's good about that? | Jul 23 23:34 |
oiaohm | They want to provide everything from 1 source. | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: customer lock in | Jul 23 23:34 |
oiaohm | No money to anyone else Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: what's good about lock-in? | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: these customers can upgrade to Linux, and be forced to do so. | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: are you a jobs worshipper suddenly? :> | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | that's easy | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | let windows die or kill it | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | Microsoft OS 8 | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | they'll have nowhere to go | Jul 23 23:34 |
oiaohm | That is your problem Diablo-D3 MS does not have a hardware department. | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | now with 100% more linux | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: wrong | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: xbox is actually a hardware department | Jul 23 23:34 |
MinceR | but gnu/linux | Jul 23 23:34 |
oiaohm | Not a good hardware department Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:34 |
Diablo-D3 | it still exists | Jul 23 23:35 |
fewa | MinceR, or free it, but the problem with that is there would be too many security holes, would be embareesing | Jul 23 23:35 |
MinceR | it would be more useful if that hw department did nothing | Jul 23 23:35 |
oiaohm | MS does not make its own chips Diablo-D3 | Jul 23 23:35 |
Diablo-D3 | fewa: nope | Jul 23 23:35 |
fewa | and loss profit | Jul 23 23:35 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd opne source windows | Jul 23 23:35 |
oiaohm | It aquires them. | Jul 23 23:35 |
MinceR | the xbox is about as reliable as windows | Jul 23 23:35 |
oiaohm | So funding IBM. | Jul 23 23:35 |
Diablo-D3 | after I kill it | Jul 23 23:35 |
fewa | ive thought open sourcing iwndows would be the best move | Jul 23 23:35 |
fewa | only thing that would save it | Jul 23 23:35 |
oiaohm | MS is funding there killers. | Jul 23 23:35 |
Diablo-D3 | ENOUGH | Jul 23 23:35 |
Diablo-D3 | no more talking about this | Jul 23 23:35 |
MinceR | i'd release windows under GPLv3 so the wine team can dissect it | Jul 23 23:35 |
oiaohm | Companies that have good reason to hate MS. | Jul 23 23:36 |
Diablo-D3 | I thought I could get through a day without hating microsoft | Jul 23 23:36 |
Diablo-D3 | Thanks for ruining that, guys. | Jul 23 23:36 |
MinceR | once again, what is there not to hate about m$? | Jul 23 23:36 |
oiaohm | You may be able to change MS. | Jul 23 23:36 |
oiaohm | The problem is changing everyone else. | Jul 23 23:36 |
Ng | there's no point hating a company, that's just ridiculous | Jul 23 23:36 |
oiaohm | who is also out for greed. | Jul 23 23:36 |
Ng | disagree with them, don't use their products, but hate? | Jul 23 23:36 |
MinceR | yes, hate | Jul 23 23:36 |
fewa | ^ | Jul 23 23:36 |
fewa | whoops | Jul 23 23:36 |
MinceR | all their efforts are focused on destroying something i like | Jul 23 23:36 |
MinceR | simply because they can't do anything useful | Jul 23 23:37 |
oiaohm | IBM and Orcale are out for money. | Jul 23 23:37 |
Ng | so ignore them :) | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | they're criminals | Jul 23 23:37 |
oiaohm | Killing MS would be proftiable. | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | criminals shouldn't be ignored | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | they should be stopped and punished | Jul 23 23:37 |
Ng | they have been punished for some things | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | not adequately | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | they were fined some lunch money | Jul 23 23:37 |
MinceR | and they gleefully kept on doing the same thing | Jul 23 23:38 |
oiaohm | Issue for IBM and Orcale they need a operational replcement. | Jul 23 23:38 |
MinceR | they should be gleefully punished for it. | Jul 23 23:38 |
Diablo-D3 | this is why I was rich btw | Jul 23 23:38 |
Diablo-D3 | I'd just buy microsoft | Jul 23 23:38 |
Ng | I want free software to win by being better and more popular, not because of revenge against nasty big microsoft | Jul 23 23:38 |
oiaohm | Once they have that MS is in big trouble. | Jul 23 23:38 |
*faux (n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se) has left #boycottnovell ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)") | Jul 23 23:38 | |
MinceR | Ng: are you implying that free software isn't better? | Jul 23 23:38 |
oiaohm | Why will they keep on buying if they don't need it. | Jul 23 23:38 |
Ng | MinceR: in some areas it is better, in others it isn't | Jul 23 23:38 |
oiaohm | Remember orcale and IBM are both lining up to target MS big market Small business. | Jul 23 23:38 |
MinceR | i don't want to take revenge on m$, i want to take revenge on the criminals who lead it that way | Jul 23 23:38 |
MinceR | and i want the others to lose their jobs | Jul 23 23:39 |
oiaohm | That is why you only have 12 months Diablo-D3. | Jul 23 23:39 |
MinceR | with a bad cv ("i worked for microsoft") | Jul 23 23:39 |
Ng | oiaohm: what do IBM/Oracle have to sell to small business? | Jul 23 23:39 |
Diablo-D3 | Ng: everything | Jul 23 23:39 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EU Government Funding for Free Software Explained http://ping.fm/lEOC9 | Jul 23 23:39 | |
Diablo-D3 | and they have to capture the small business market now | Jul 23 23:40 |
Ng | Diablo-D3: I mean specific products | Jul 23 23:40 |
Diablo-D3 | because the economic downturn is over | Jul 23 23:40 |
Ng | there's staroffice and....? | Jul 23 23:40 |
Diablo-D3 | Ng: servers, dude | Jul 23 23:40 |
Ng | Diablo-D3: servers running what? | Jul 23 23:40 |
MinceR | unless we're heading towards the center of a W-shaped recession :> | Jul 23 23:40 |
Diablo-D3 | ibm and sun have idiot proof easy to run servers | Jul 23 23:40 |
oiaohm | IBM and Orcale are lining up to replace ADS server and the rest of MS server products on stuff running on Linux. | Jul 23 23:40 |
Ng | small businesses don't care about servers, they care about things that do what exchange/sharepoint/etc do | Jul 23 23:40 |
Diablo-D3 | anyhow, Im done caring about this | Jul 23 23:41 |
Diablo-D3 | let microsoft die | Jul 23 23:41 |
Diablo-D3 | its just not profitable for FOSS for this to happen | Jul 23 23:41 |
Diablo-D3 | FOSS grew because it had a foil | Jul 23 23:41 |
oiaohm | Yes exchange sharepoint... is what they are lining up to replace Ng | Jul 23 23:41 |
Diablo-D3 | no foil, current FOSS projects become foils for new projects | Jul 23 23:41 |
oiaohm | MS to die is profitable for FOSS supporting companies. | Jul 23 23:42 |
oiaohm | Allows them to sell with less overhead. | Jul 23 23:42 |
fewa | Ng, http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/PMOs-email-system-infected-for-three-months/articleshow/4266663.cms | Jul 23 23:42 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: you don't need foils for engineering | Jul 23 23:42 |
Diablo-D3 | http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/eLA_A-nul8I/Microsofts-Code-Contribution-Due-To-GPL-Violation | Jul 23 23:42 |
MinceR | you need knowledge and expertise | Jul 23 23:42 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: no, but you need hate in users to convince them to use something | Jul 23 23:42 |
Ng | oiaohm: I've not seen anything about either IBM or Oracle doing anything on groupware and suchlike? | Jul 23 23:43 |
MinceR | not really | Jul 23 23:43 |
Ng | fewa: how is that relevant? | Jul 23 23:43 |
MinceR | users have needs, those needs can be filled via technology | Jul 23 23:43 |
Ng | fewa: do you know what they replaced outlook *express* with? *squirrelmail* | Jul 23 23:43 |
oiaohm | IBM and Orcale already have the groupware Ng | Jul 23 23:43 |
oiaohm | They lack the intergration bit ADS Ng | Jul 23 23:43 |
Ng | oiaohm: Notes? ;) | Jul 23 23:43 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: if really only hate drives them then they shouldn't use anything. | Jul 23 23:43 |
fewa | Ng, whats wrong with squirrelmail? | Jul 23 23:43 |
MinceR | it's not a good reason. | Jul 23 23:43 |
oiaohm | MS sells the bundle ie SBS server Ng. | Jul 23 23:44 |
oiaohm | That is what holds MS. | Jul 23 23:44 |
Ng | fewa: it's really not great, but it's still not relevant to groupware and small business systems | Jul 23 23:44 |
trmanco | http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs-en/visual-basic-mode.el | Jul 23 23:44 |
trmanco | wow | Jul 23 23:44 |
Diablo-D3 | users have hates | Jul 23 23:44 |
Diablo-D3 | you apparently havent met enough users | Jul 23 23:44 |
fewa | Ng, Google Wave will eat MS "groupware" for breakfast | Jul 23 23:45 |
Ng | oiaohm: I'd actually rather use SBS than some hideous car crash of star office and Notes and some ADS replacement | Jul 23 23:45 |
MinceR | Diablo-D3: i know users have hates, i just don't think that's necessarily what drives technology. | Jul 23 23:45 |
oiaohm | Do you forget lotus from ibm Ng | Jul 23 23:45 |
Ng | oiaohm: I've said Notes twice now, so no? | Jul 23 23:45 |
Ng | fewa: I highly doubt that | Jul 23 23:45 |
MinceR | the IT industry isn't in a normal state, it's being poisoned by the likes of m$, crApple and adobe. | Jul 23 23:46 |
Diablo-D3 | MinceR: dude, thats bullshit | Jul 23 23:46 |
MinceR | technical decisions are made by clueless suits instead of engineers. | Jul 23 23:46 |
Diablo-D3 | <ford> I HATE WALKING | Jul 23 23:46 |
Diablo-D3 | TADA, THE CAR | Jul 23 23:46 |
fewa | Diablo-D3, you mean the horse and buggy | Jul 23 23:46 |
fewa | get your facts straight | Jul 23 23:46 |
Diablo-D3 | you know what I mean damnit | Jul 23 23:46 |
MinceR | you're still wrong | Jul 23 23:47 |
fewa | ^ | Jul 23 23:47 |
oiaohm | Ng not everyone will choose like you. | Jul 23 23:47 |
fewa | history doesnt work like that | Jul 23 23:47 |
Diablo-D3 | no, history loves to gloss over shit | Jul 23 23:47 |
Diablo-D3 | this is the engineering spirit | Jul 23 23:47 |
Diablo-D3 | itches get scratched | Jul 23 23:47 |
Ng | oiaohm: history suggests that exchange is more compelling than notes | Jul 23 23:47 |
MinceR | exactly | Jul 23 23:47 |
Ng | oiaohm: so it seems like people do choose the way I suggest | Jul 23 23:47 |
MinceR | and that isn't about having some criminal to hate which forces crap on you every day | Jul 23 23:47 |
fewa | Ng, it seems like the Ng the supreme leader tells people how to think | Jul 23 23:48 |
MinceR | i'd say the solution that is a non-engineering solution | Jul 23 23:48 |
oiaohm | Not exact Ng | Jul 23 23:48 |
MinceR | kill the criminal, live happily ever after. | Jul 23 23:48 |
oiaohm | Exchange and Outlook combination has been cheeper Ng. | Jul 23 23:48 |
krenso | bye | Jul 23 23:48 |
Ng | oiaohm: and better integrated. I've been forced to use both in previous jobs and imho notes was far worse ;) | Jul 23 23:48 |
oiaohm | The ADS link from Exhange provided better client support. | Jul 23 23:48 |
oiaohm | ADS has been MS keystone Ng | Jul 23 23:49 |
*krenso has quit ("Leaving") | Jul 23 23:49 | |
Ng | fewa: you're welcome to think what you like :) | Jul 23 23:49 |
oiaohm | MS loses control of that. | Jul 23 23:49 |
oiaohm | Results not nice. | Jul 23 23:49 |
Ng | fewa: but if you express an opinion you should be able to justify it when I challenge it :) | Jul 23 23:49 |
fewa | Ng, this goes both ways | Jul 23 23:49 |
Ng | fewa: of course :) | Jul 23 23:49 |
oiaohm | Intergration is the issue Ng | Jul 23 23:49 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft profits down by a third http://ping.fm/uqlY8 | Jul 23 23:49 | |
oiaohm | Problem is IBM and Orcale will be soon playing on the same level as MS. | Jul 23 23:50 |
oiaohm | Along with others like cisco systems. | Jul 23 23:50 |
Ng | oiaohm: lotus has had a directory server too for years, Domino | Jul 23 23:50 |
oiaohm | does not control clients. | Jul 23 23:50 |
oiaohm | Nice big weakness. | Jul 23 23:50 |
oiaohm | ADS is not just a directory server if it was it would have given MS no advantage. | Jul 23 23:51 |
*crunchy135711 has quit (Client Quit) | Jul 23 23:51 | |
oiaohm | Wake up ADS is the keystone that holds the MS system together. | Jul 23 23:52 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] @_Goblin: Great work Goblin! I love your site, visit it almost on a daily base. Keep up the good work! | Jul 23 23:52 | |
oiaohm | Linux has not had a equal keystone for small business usage. | Jul 23 23:53 |
sebsebseb | oiaohm: keystone? userbase? market share oppertunity? or what did you mean? | Jul 23 23:54 |
*tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Jul 23 23:54 | |
fewa | Red Hat has been working on it | Jul 23 23:55 |
fewa | check out freeipa.org | Jul 23 23:55 |
fewa | also http://www.redhat.com/spacewalk/ | Jul 23 23:56 |
Ng | oiaohm: I'm not trying to downplay ADS, it's certain;y a very important part of microsoft's server offerings | Jul 23 23:56 |
Ng | anything from ibm/oracle that hoped to take on SBS would have a lot of functionality to replace, including ADS | Jul 23 23:57 |
Ng | but I've not seen any real indication that they're doing those things. If you have read things I haven't where they talk about it, then fair enough :) | Jul 23 23:57 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @ml2mst Cheers. If you ever want to contribute any articles please feel free to email me. | Jul 23 23:58 | |
Ng | oracle is a database company, sun is a hardware vendor, ibm is a services company | Jul 23 23:58 |
Ng | well oracle is in the services game too | Jul 23 23:58 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!