schestowitz | "Cigarette makers have come up with a way to get around the new U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule banning flavored cigarettes. They have started making small, filtered cigars similar in size to cigarettes, that are flavored with clove, vanilla and cherry. Cigarettes are wrapped in paper, while cigars are wrapped in tobacco leaves or paper that contains reconstituted tobacco." | Sep 16 00:00 |
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schestowitz | http://www.prwatch.org/node/8547 | Sep 16 00:00 |
trmanco | http://github.com/Arora/arora/tree/master/src/locale/ | Sep 16 00:00 |
trmanco | no pt pt translation uh | Sep 16 00:00 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Chinese browsers are putting the heat on Internet Explorer: http://is.gd/3jAFY | Sep 16 00:06 | |
schestowitz | gn | Sep 16 00:08 |
trmanco | already? | Sep 16 00:14 |
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cubezzz | same with Loki games... | Sep 16 00:20 |
cubezzz | no more dev work | Sep 16 00:20 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Yet another amazing Bush Whitehouse tell-all released http://is.gd/3jDT6 | Sep 16 00:40 | |
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yuhong | I am wondering if we should not blame the OS vendors for DRM "anti-features", blaming Hollywood instead for demanding them. | Sep 16 01:33 |
yuhong | I mean, if Linux was to add support for Blu-Ray, these same DRM anti-features would be needed to be added to Linux as well. | Sep 16 01:33 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: well | Sep 16 01:33 |
Diablo-D3 | if bluray had been smart | Sep 16 01:33 |
Diablo-D3 | they would have used a java vm to decrypt the disc | Sep 16 01:33 |
yuhong | And while DRM-free music has caught on, DRM-free video has not been caught on. | Sep 16 01:34 |
Diablo-D3 | I mean, sure, it wouldnt stop those who just copy the entire ISO.... | Sep 16 01:34 |
Diablo-D3 | but lets face it, pirating 25gb ISOs sucks ass | Sep 16 01:34 |
Diablo-D3 | even if you have 100mbps internet, it sucks ass | Sep 16 01:34 |
Diablo-D3 | if they were smart they'd write a non-flash internet browser player | Sep 16 01:35 |
yuhong | BD+ appears to be closest to an attempt to do this. | Sep 16 01:35 |
Diablo-D3 | in fact | Sep 16 01:36 |
Diablo-D3 | _in fact_ | Sep 16 01:36 |
Diablo-D3 | it shouldnt _be_ tied to the media that way | Sep 16 01:36 |
Diablo-D3 | I should be able to copy the ISO and play it back | Sep 16 01:36 |
Diablo-D3 | let the damn thing call home for all I care | Sep 16 01:36 |
Diablo-D3 | that doesnt really bother me | Sep 16 01:37 |
yuhong | Using a different secret byte-code, but similar idea. | Sep 16 01:37 |
yuhong | It seems to be successful. | Sep 16 01:37 |
yuhong | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BD%2B | Sep 16 01:37 |
Diablo-D3 | I wouldn't mind building a gigantic server | Sep 16 01:37 |
Diablo-D3 | that I just copy the discs into | Sep 16 01:37 |
Diablo-D3 | and play them anywhere in my home | Sep 16 01:37 |
Diablo-D3 | as long as I actually get to build the server | Sep 16 01:38 |
yuhong | Much more successful than AACS. | Sep 16 01:38 |
Diablo-D3 | even running a proprietary linux distro wouldnt be that big of an issue as long as it works and is updated frequently or updatable | Sep 16 01:38 |
Diablo-D3 | and the clients would have to not suck | Sep 16 01:39 |
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Diablo-D3 | or even not have clients at all and use a modern wireless HDMI box that can do uncompressed 1080p | Sep 16 01:39 |
yuhong | Thanks for this idea. | Sep 16 01:39 |
Diablo-D3 | seriously, Im not a nutjob like some people (roy, sadly, included) | Sep 16 01:39 |
Diablo-D3 | I just want shit to work the way I want it to work | Sep 16 01:39 |
Diablo-D3 | Im flexable | Sep 16 01:39 |
Diablo-D3 | blurays, although I own quite a few and a player to go with them, kind of suck | Sep 16 01:40 |
Diablo-D3 | I have to often pirate shit I already own just to watch it on my computer | Sep 16 01:40 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: I dont know why they bother though | Sep 16 01:43 |
Diablo-D3 | they could get rid of the DRM altogether | Sep 16 01:43 |
yuhong | It seems that an advantage of HD DVD is that DRM-free versions are possible, which is not possible for Blu-Ray. | Sep 16 01:43 |
Diablo-D3 | and slash the cost of the disc in half | Sep 16 01:43 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: no | Sep 16 01:43 |
Diablo-D3 | you can do DRM free on bluray | Sep 16 01:43 |
yuhong | I am trying to confirm this. | Sep 16 01:43 |
Diablo-D3 | Im pretty sure you dont have to use it | Sep 16 01:44 |
Diablo-D3 | but even if that wasnt true | Sep 16 01:44 |
Diablo-D3 | they could just leak the key | Sep 16 01:44 |
yuhong | Maybe. | Sep 16 01:44 |
yuhong | http://wesleytech.com/2007/02/09/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/ | Sep 16 01:44 |
yuhong | As I said, I am trying to confirm this. | Sep 16 01:46 |
Diablo-D3 | Im serious though | Sep 16 01:46 |
Diablo-D3 | they could just create one key for drm-less discs | Sep 16 01:47 |
yuhong | In theory, or just get rid of it altogether. | Sep 16 01:47 |
yuhong | I am trying to find out which of HD DVD or Blu-Ray allow this. | Sep 16 01:48 |
Diablo-D3 | Im pretty sure you can master discs without it | Sep 16 01:49 |
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yuhong | Anyway, right now, there are Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players for Linux, but I don't think they are officially certified. | Sep 16 01:52 |
Diablo-D3 | hd-dvd is dead | Sep 16 01:53 |
Diablo-D3 | and mplayer can play some bluray discs with an unoffical patch that just cracks the disc | Sep 16 01:53 |
yuhong | What I meant was that if it was to be officially certified, some of Vista's DRM anti-features would probably have to be added to Linux. | Sep 16 01:54 |
Diablo-D3 | I don't largely care as long as the software _works_ | Sep 16 01:54 |
Diablo-D3 | the problem is it rarely works | Sep 16 01:54 |
yuhong | As I said, I am trying to investigate, it seems to be hard to find that info. | Sep 16 01:58 |
cubezzz | well I still want as much source code as possible :) | Sep 16 02:01 |
cubezzz | anyone at the extreme end of a spectrum can appear to be "a nut job" | Sep 16 02:02 |
cubezzz | Stallman for example... many people think he's strange | Sep 16 02:04 |
cubezzz | all that work on gnu stuff... | Sep 16 02:04 |
yuhong | http://www.articlesbase.com/multimedia-articles/bluray-is-growth-being-hampered-by-high-bluray-replication-costs-1126384.html | Sep 16 02:05 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: its largely bullshit | Sep 16 02:05 |
yuhong | "To begin with no Blu-ray replication run can be undertaken without the expensive addition of AACS copy protection." | Sep 16 02:05 |
Diablo-D3 | it only costs about twice as much as a dvd9. | Sep 16 02:05 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: thats implying commercially produced discs | Sep 16 02:05 |
Diablo-D3 | its just another cost of doing business anyhow | Sep 16 02:06 |
yuhong | Yes, now the cost is reduced, but that is not my point, I am talking about whether DRM-free discs are possible. | Sep 16 02:06 |
yuhong | http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blu-ray-authoring/359931-changes-aacs-mean-cheaper-blu-ray-replication-costs.html | Sep 16 02:08 |
yuhong | Not my point however. | Sep 16 02:08 |
cubezzz | you have to buy a new tv or monitor, that's why people don't all rush to buy blu-ray | Sep 16 02:09 |
Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: no you dont | Sep 16 02:09 |
Diablo-D3 | older tv == analog | Sep 16 02:09 |
cubezzz | yes | Sep 16 02:09 |
Diablo-D3 | and yes, you can do 1080i over analog | Sep 16 02:09 |
Diablo-D3 | its a huge gigantic waste to play blurays on anything but a HDMI 1080p screen... but it can be done | Sep 16 02:10 |
yuhong | It implys that DRM-free HD DVD discs are possible, but DRM-free Blu-Rays are not. | Sep 16 02:10 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: afiak it is possible | Sep 16 02:11 |
Diablo-D3 | but as i said, even if its not, they could very easily set a key aside for this situation | Sep 16 02:11 |
yuhong | How? | Sep 16 02:11 |
Balrog | afaik Blu-Ray does not block the analog hole right now | Sep 16 02:11 |
Balrog | but the ability to do so exists | Sep 16 02:12 |
cubezzz | 1920x1080 (1080p), I'm pretty sure my computer monitor can't do that | Sep 16 02:12 |
Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: mine can. | Sep 16 02:12 |
cubezzz | plus this box is way too slow :) | Sep 16 02:12 |
yuhong | http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:Ngu-rgRPwaYJ:wesleytech.com/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-replication-costs-revealed/111/+hd+dvd+blu-ray+replication+aacs&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us | Sep 16 02:13 |
yuhong | "Sony has a contract with AACS that says that their encryption is required on every BD title. Not sure how long or what the details are. HD DVD can be mastered w/o AACS so I assume there was no exclusivity deal there." | Sep 16 02:13 |
cubezzz | so I would have to buy a new box for sure | Sep 16 02:13 |
Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: heh. | Sep 16 02:13 |
Diablo-D3 | yuhong: nasty | Sep 16 02:13 |
cubezzz | It would be interesting to try it on analog though | Sep 16 02:13 |
Diablo-D3 | clearly Sony will have to be sued. | Sep 16 02:13 |
Diablo-D3 | or Ill just leak my AACS key | Sep 16 02:14 |
cubezzz | they is no way to stop copying if the guy is determined enough | Sep 16 02:14 |
cubezzz | there | Sep 16 02:15 |
cubezzz | not advocating copying per se | Sep 16 02:15 |
cubezzz | just an observation | Sep 16 02:15 |
yuhong | Neither of which I recommend, when DRM-free videos catches on, I am sure they will have the details figured out. | Sep 16 02:15 |
yuhong | One reason is that the same key block is used in many movies. | Sep 16 02:17 |
yuhong | With HD DVD it is already technically possible, and if DRM-free movies catches on I am sure they will have the details figured out for Blu-Ray. | Sep 16 02:17 |
cubezzz | DRM free movies don't seem too likely | Sep 16 02:18 |
cubezzz | movie theatres, I would expect that to decline | Sep 16 02:19 |
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yuhong | As you said, there are indeed several options for Blu-Ray if they do want to do DRM-free movies. | Sep 16 02:19 |
yuhong | http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-894879.html | Sep 16 02:24 |
yuhong | I mean, how many AACS-free HD DVD movies are there in the first place? | Sep 16 02:25 |
yuhong | Today. | Sep 16 02:25 |
yuhong | Not many, I think. | Sep 16 02:25 |
yuhong | But at least with HD DVD it is technically possible, while it seems to be mandatary for Blu-Ray. | Sep 16 02:27 |
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yuhong | There may also be player compatiblity issues with DRM-free Blu-Ray, as right now it is mandatary: | Sep 16 02:32 |
yuhong | http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=20850&st=0 | Sep 16 02:32 |
yuhong | http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-video-industry-news/115363-reports-blu-rays-expensive-licensing-fees-2.html | Sep 16 02:34 |
yuhong | They seem to suggest burning to BD-R to get DRM-free movies, which is certainly fine for small-scale publishers that can't afford replication. | Sep 16 02:39 |
yuhong | But it seems that not all features can be used in this mode, unlike HD DVD. | Sep 16 02:40 |
yuhong | And all the compatiblity issues with DRM-free Blu-Ray are still there | Sep 16 02:41 |
yuhong | For example, BD-J don't seem to work without AACS. | Sep 16 02:44 |
yuhong | Which requires replication. | Sep 16 02:45 |
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zlg | John Dobson, Amateur Astronimer, years ago invented a new type of telescop, that allowed amateur astronimers to build high power low cost telescopes. | Sep 16 02:47 |
zlg | He could of patented the invention and made a huge amount of money, but instead he teaches every who is interested how to make them. | Sep 16 02:48 |
fewa | geeze yuhong, what junk | Sep 16 02:48 |
zlg | He singlehandly revolutionised Amateur astronomy, by providing low cost high power and easily home made telescopes. | Sep 16 02:49 |
zlg | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobsonian_telescope#Dobson.27s_design_innovations | Sep 16 02:49 |
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fewa | MPAA getting handed the remote, and getting a monopoly on the technology | Sep 16 02:49 |
fewa | That is blatent misinformation of how patent law works zlg | Sep 16 02:51 |
fewa | If a someone got a patent on the cure for aids there would be nothing stopping them from sitting on their ass and laughing at all the people with AIDS | Sep 16 02:52 |
zlg | what do you mean, it's not patented, so the law does not apply, I was just repeating what im seeing on the Documentry I am watching. | Sep 16 02:52 |
fewa | and then if someone actually tried to make it he could sue them and prevent them from making that cure for AIDS | Sep 16 02:52 |
fewa | That is the insanity of patent law | Sep 16 02:52 |
fewa | with an injunction | Sep 16 02:53 |
zlg | thats not what im saying at all, Im saying he is working under open innovation. | Sep 16 02:53 |
fewa | "He could of patented " | Sep 16 02:53 |
fewa | ahh | Sep 16 02:53 |
fewa | The maker of fleece did that sort of thing | Sep 16 02:53 |
zlg | which I thought (here) might be considered a good thing and a good example of the power of open innovation and what it can do to help the community. | Sep 16 02:53 |
fewa | great man, when his texttile plant burned down in New England he rebuilt it on the spot and paid his workers until it was rebuilt | Sep 16 02:54 |
fewa | *continued to pay his workers | Sep 16 02:54 |
zlg | thats what the show said, another astronomer was saying it about donalson | Sep 16 02:54 |
fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Feuerstein | Sep 16 02:55 |
zlg | sorry you lost me fewa, so ok, I was bringing to this channel an example where patents are not as good as open, but you find fault with everything, so fair enough | Sep 16 02:55 |
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yuhong | And oops, it appears that schestowitz missed the thing we just discussed about AACS mandatary for Blu-Ray, but not for HD DVD. | Sep 16 03:07 |
yuhong | "My only interest in the next-gen DVD format wars (as I’ve stated some times in USENET in the past week) is its impact on XBox360 and — by association — its draining of Microsoft’s coffers." | Sep 16 03:08 |
yuhong | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/20/ebay-boycott-yahoo-under-attack/ | Sep 16 03:08 |
yuhong | I mean, it appears that schestowitz did not realize that AACS DRM protections are mandatary for Blu-Ray, but not for HD DVD. | Sep 16 03:09 |
yuhong | Oops. | Sep 16 03:09 |
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he he. yuhong thinks a M$ format would be drm free, as if Windows itself were not a digital restrictions platform and hd dvd would work anywhere but there OOOOOOoooooooopppppppsie! | Sep 16 03:19 | |
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fewa | Microsoft has long attempted to please the MPAA | Sep 16 03:34 |
fewa | and conspire with them to lock up innovation | Sep 16 03:35 |
fewa | this has been widely documented | Sep 16 03:35 |
fewa | including from Bill Gates himself | Sep 16 03:35 |
restrictions = failure | Sep 16 03:38 | |
freedom = success | Sep 16 03:39 | |
tessier | war = peace | Sep 16 03:51 |
tessier | We have always been at war with Oceania | Sep 16 03:51 |
fewa | We have always been in a "war on terror" | Sep 16 03:58 |
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lol at Myvold -> In CheapOS world, many fewer people would be working full time on system software, because there would be no revenue to support them. Features and functionality which support the current user base would consquently be lacking. Which means that the user base would be much smaller. | Sep 16 04:21 | |
In the 11 years that followed his observation, free software has gained more developers and features than M$ can dream about. | Sep 16 04:22 | |
_Hicham_ | free software has gained me | Sep 16 04:24 |
cubezzz | 1984 ha | Sep 16 04:24 |
_Hicham_ | which is a great victory for FOSS | Sep 16 04:24 |
_Hicham_ | as well as twitter | Sep 16 04:24 |
cubezzz | well, 1984 didn't happen and neither did space 1999 :) | Sep 16 04:25 |
free software did happen | Sep 16 04:26 | |
_Hicham_ | yes, free software is one of the miracles of this century | Sep 16 04:29 |
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DaemonFC | http://tech.msn.com/products/articlepcw.aspx?cp-documentid=21535424>1=40000 | Sep 16 04:59 |
DaemonFC | The 15 Biggest Wikipedia Blunders | Sep 16 04:59 |
DaemonFC | lol? | Sep 16 04:59 |
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cubezzz | msn, say no more | Sep 16 05:01 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz: Wikipedia's glaring inaccuracy is still staggering | Sep 16 05:02 |
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DaemonFC | it's now "The encyclopedia that you might be able to edit, once *someone* scrutinizes the submission" | Sep 16 05:03 |
DaemonFC | and who does that? | Sep 16 05:03 |
DaemonFC | some biased administrator? | Sep 16 05:03 |
DaemonFC | one that lies about their credentials on their user page? | Sep 16 05:03 |
DaemonFC | one that really works for a PR firm or a lobbyist group? | Sep 16 05:04 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is too contaminated to trust | Sep 16 05:04 |
DaemonFC | this move to require submission checking won't fix the problem, it's just letting different foxes guard the hen house | Sep 16 05:04 |
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DaemonFC | http://engrishfunny.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/engrish-funny-pork-mee.jpg?w=500&h=375 | Sep 16 05:18 |
fewa | DaemonFC, there have been peer reviewed journal articles that have compared Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Briticania and found Wikipedia to be more accurate | Sep 16 05:18 |
fewa | But yes, there are alot of PR firms on Wikipedia | Sep 16 05:19 |
fewa | but on wikipedia there is at least a chance to remove the junk myths | Sep 16 05:19 |
zlg | It's very existance depends on it's accuracy, too many errors and people wont use it. | Sep 16 05:19 |
DaemonFC | fewa: Peer reviewed by Wikipedia no doubt | Sep 16 05:19 |
DaemonFC | or some FSF person | Sep 16 05:20 |
fewa | not at all | Sep 16 05:20 |
DaemonFC | the result of a "peer reviewed" study depends entirely on who the "peers" are | Sep 16 05:20 |
DaemonFC | people just say "peer reviewed" because it sounds better than "some guy who may be just as biased as the next" | Sep 16 05:20 |
fewa | http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2006/11/8296.ars | Sep 16 05:21 |
fewa | Here is on from Nature Joe Scarborough Is Shocked, Yet Awed by Single-Payer Logic | Sep 16 05:21 |
fewa | * http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/12/5768.ars | Sep 16 05:21 |
zlg | Ive found it very good and getting better all the time. | Sep 16 05:21 |
DaemonFC | fewa: I've never seen a real encyclopedia get vandalized to pronounce people dead, gay, or Hitler worshippers | Sep 16 05:21 |
fewa | _highly_ respected peer review journal | Sep 16 05:22 |
DaemonFC | until I see a real encyclopedia have something retarded like that on their articles, Wikipedia is bunk | Sep 16 05:22 |
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fewa | DaemonFC, have you ever read 1901 encyclopedia britanica? | Sep 16 05:22 |
DaemonFC | I've routinely ran into things like "PENIS PENIS PENIS!!!!!" in the middle of a paragraph in Wikipedia | Sep 16 05:22 |
DaemonFC | I don't know WHY I bother to fix their bullshit | Sep 16 05:22 |
fewa | DaemonFC, and what harm does such obvious vadalism do to sensible people? | Sep 16 05:23 |
DaemonFC | because it's not all that obvious | Sep 16 05:23 |
fewa | Its the deliberate lies that are much more damaging | Sep 16 05:23 |
DaemonFC | the bigger problems are weasel words | Sep 16 05:23 |
fewa | DaemonFC, you cant have it both ways | Sep 16 05:23 |
DaemonFC | you fix weasel words and an administrator reverts it to where they are back | Sep 16 05:23 |
zlg | DeamonFC Examples ? | Sep 16 05:23 |
DaemonFC | you fix euphemisms that companies like Microsoft put in to describe things like DRM | Sep 16 05:23 |
fewa | DaemonFC, look at the Nature article | Sep 16 05:23 |
DaemonFC | and some administrator reverts it back | Sep 16 05:24 |
DaemonFC | fuck them | Sep 16 05:24 |
fewa | and that doesn't even touch on the fact that Wikipedia has vastly more information than any thing that could be compared | Sep 16 05:24 |
fewa | Sure, its not perfect | Sep 16 05:24 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is the faux-encyclopedia that any corporate PR agency can edit | Sep 16 05:24 |
fewa | DaemonFC, read "Manufacturing Consent" | Sep 16 05:25 |
fewa | *watch | Sep 16 05:25 |
fewa | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730 | Sep 16 05:25 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is crap | Sep 16 05:25 |
fewa | watch it | Sep 16 05:25 |
DaemonFC | they allow obvious weasel wording | Sep 16 05:25 |
fewa | DaemonFC, ask that to the million who use it every day | Sep 16 05:25 |
DaemonFC | look at their "Articles with weasel words" list | Sep 16 05:25 |
fewa | and millions who contribute | Sep 16 05:25 |
DaemonFC | those are jsut the articles flagged that their bureaucrats won't fix | Sep 16 05:25 |
DaemonFC | then shit goes to a "community vote" where the companies involved stuff the ballot box | Sep 16 05:26 |
fewa | DaemonFC, Wikipedia has millions of articles, can a few administrators work on every article? | Sep 16 05:26 |
DaemonFC | and the biased article remains | Sep 16 05:26 |
fewa | anyways read te video | Sep 16 05:27 |
fewa | *watch | Sep 16 05:27 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is just too bloated and bureaucratic and broken to fix | Sep 16 05:27 |
zlg | what do you mean about weasel words ? | Sep 16 05:27 |
DaemonFC | "some people say" | Sep 16 05:28 |
DaemonFC | "critics argue that" | Sep 16 05:28 |
DaemonFC | "few would deny" | Sep 16 05:28 |
DaemonFC | "So and so is an excellent such and such" | Sep 16 05:28 |
DaemonFC | "Widget X is the best widget in the world" | Sep 16 05:29 |
DaemonFC | encyclopedias don't have an opinion | Sep 16 05:29 |
DaemonFC | encyclopedias are not a collection of trivia | Sep 16 05:29 |
DaemonFC | encyclopedias don't have articles replaced with "PENIS PENIS PENIS LULZ!!!!111" | Sep 16 05:30 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is a fake encyclopedia | Sep 16 05:31 |
DaemonFC | it's a collection of opinionated bullshit and trivia masquerading as important content | Sep 16 05:31 |
zlg | "few woulod deny" that the use of such terms could be defined as the very thing the artice tries to describe, weasel words. | Sep 16 05:32 |
DaemonFC | it also cites schestowitz favorite company in the world for operating system stats | Sep 16 05:32 |
DaemonFC | Net Applications | Sep 16 05:32 |
DaemonFC | so that must mean that Net Applications is a good source | Sep 16 05:32 |
DaemonFC | right? | Sep 16 05:32 |
zlg | The subject matter is etomology, thats what it is, conjecture and suppersition | Sep 16 05:32 |
DaemonFC | Wankerpedia | Sep 16 05:32 |
zlg | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton | Sep 16 05:34 |
zlg | compare with that, it's all pure factural information, no "It is said" and so on, it is dependant upon subject matter | Sep 16 05:35 |
DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Operating_system_usage_share.svg | Sep 16 05:35 |
zlg | So ? | Sep 16 05:36 |
DaemonFC | Wikipedia is jsut trying to ge trid of the obvious and really embarrassing stupidity | Sep 16 05:36 |
DaemonFC | not to get rid of the real problems | Sep 16 05:36 |
DaemonFC | *get rid | Sep 16 05:36 |
zlg | the other thing is availability, alot more people would have a PC and a net connection than a full set up recent up to date set of hard copy books | Sep 16 05:42 |
DaemonFC | zlg: CD-ROM | Sep 16 05:45 |
zlg | thats true, and I that also be continued, and reminds me I have a CD-ROM, but never use it, :) | Sep 16 05:47 |
zlg | what would be a problem is that the enclypodia's cease to exist and wikki was all there was to rely on. | Sep 16 05:48 |
zlg | need multiple sources | Sep 16 05:48 |
zlg | and peer review is usually by august bodies, like SCIENCE mag, or the Royal Sciety, or an assembled group of experts in the field, scientists submit "papers" that are reviewed before publishing. | Sep 16 05:50 |
DaemonFC | the Wikipedia articles often don't cite sources | Sep 16 05:50 |
DaemonFC | or only cite sources from the company PR page of the product the article is about | Sep 16 05:51 |
DaemonFC | a lot of sources they cite are dead links | Sep 16 05:51 |
DaemonFC | PR companies have spent a lot of time and effort figuring out exactly how to game Wikipedia | Sep 16 05:52 |
DaemonFC | and they've turned it into a PR tool | Sep 16 05:52 |
DaemonFC | sometimes their staffers benignly edit other articles | Sep 16 05:53 |
DaemonFC | sometimes their staffers list some criticism of the company to make the spam article seem more balanced | Sep 16 05:54 |
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DaemonFC | sometimes they just remove all criticism and set up a "criticism of..." page that nobody ever reads | Sep 16 05:54 |
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_Hicham_ | DaemonFC the biggest troll | Sep 16 06:23 |
_Hicham_ | u will die while u r trolling for sure | Sep 16 06:23 |
DaemonFC | Muslim threat? | Sep 16 06:23 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 16 06:23 |
DaemonFC | I'm in the camp that says pretty much everyone should be required to own a gun | Sep 16 06:26 |
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DaemonFC | there'd be a lot less bullshit in the world if a person knew they'd be shot before committing their crime | Sep 16 06:27 |
zlg | or they just make sure they havea bigger gun and faster trigger than you. | Sep 16 06:28 |
zlg | it's a lose / lose | Sep 16 06:28 |
DaemonFC | not really | Sep 16 06:28 |
DaemonFC | there's a lot of crime because almsot nobody carries a gun on them | Sep 16 06:29 |
DaemonFC | the perpetrator knows they'll probably get away with it | Sep 16 06:29 |
DaemonFC | *almost | Sep 16 06:29 |
zlg | we have less crime here and no one carries a gun, except the cops | Sep 16 06:29 |
DaemonFC | You threaten me? I will fuck you up | Sep 16 06:29 |
DaemonFC | that's a promise | Sep 16 06:29 |
DaemonFC | it keeps arguments short | Sep 16 06:29 |
_Hicham_ | I didn't threaten u | Sep 16 06:30 |
_Hicham_ | u will die from a heart attack | Sep 16 06:30 |
_Hicham_ | trolling isn't good for health | Sep 16 06:30 |
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DaemonFC | I usually keep a .40 S&W on me | Sep 16 06:31 |
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DaemonFC | it handles well enough, fairly light, good stopping power | Sep 16 06:31 |
_Hicham_ | u r the one who is threatening in here | Sep 16 06:32 |
_Hicham_ | see ? | Sep 16 06:32 |
_Hicham_ | heh | Sep 16 06:32 |
DaemonFC | also, of all the guns I've fired, I've never had this one jam | Sep 16 06:32 |
zlg | there is only one thing guns are good for, that is if you want to kill something, | Sep 16 06:33 |
DaemonFC | it's also pretty easy to clean | Sep 16 06:33 |
DaemonFC | they're affordable too | Sep 16 06:33 |
_Hicham_ | I will send u in a long coma just with a slap of my bare hand | Sep 16 06:34 |
_Hicham_ | I won't need weapons with u | Sep 16 06:34 |
DaemonFC | you can get one new for about $180 | Sep 16 06:34 |
_Hicham_ | as I said, I don't need weapons | Sep 16 06:34 |
_Hicham_ | coz I am not afraid of anyone | Sep 16 06:34 |
DaemonFC | http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/handguns/40sw/hi_point_40sw.html | Sep 16 06:34 |
DaemonFC | there it is | Sep 16 06:34 |
DaemonFC | not stylish, but it gets the job done | Sep 16 06:34 |
zlg | 9mm browning pistol, F1 9mm Sub-machine gun, AR, Military L1A1, shotguns, up to 5 inch ship mounted cannon, and the 40 cal machine gun they are all fun, but still designed to kill. | Sep 16 06:35 |
_Hicham_ | this guy is in real panic | Sep 16 06:35 |
_Hicham_ | haha | Sep 16 06:35 |
_Hicham_ | although no one is even looking at him | Sep 16 06:36 |
_Hicham_ | he suffers badly from loneliness | Sep 16 06:36 |
_Hicham_ | he will end up killing himself with his own gun | Sep 16 06:36 |
MinceR | http://segin-rr.blogspot.com/2009/09/microsoft-fucks-over-xp-users.html | Sep 16 06:36 |
_Hicham_ | that what guns are made for | Sep 16 06:36 |
_Hicham_ | for committing suicide | Sep 16 06:36 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Nope | Sep 16 06:36 |
DaemonFC | every day I live is another victory over the heathens | Sep 16 06:37 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 16 06:37 |
MinceR | who are the "heathens"? | Sep 16 06:37 |
DaemonFC | in the sense of an uncivilized person, MinceR | Sep 16 06:37 |
MinceR | i'm unfamiliar with that sense of the word | Sep 16 06:38 |
*_Hicham_ don't think that DaemonFC can be a civilized person | Sep 16 06:39 | |
MinceR | but now i know | Sep 16 06:39 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_ loves me, don't let him fool you | Sep 16 06:39 |
MinceR | i know | Sep 16 06:40 |
_Hicham_ | oooooooooooh yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah | Sep 16 06:40 |
DaemonFC | his delusion is all about love you know | Sep 16 06:40 |
_Hicham_ | I love all the people on earth on buddy | Sep 16 06:40 |
DaemonFC | and sunshine and kitty kats | Sep 16 06:40 |
_Hicham_ | but u don't love anyone | Sep 16 06:41 |
_Hicham_ | u don't even love urself | Sep 16 06:41 |
DaemonFC | that's called narcissism dear | Sep 16 06:41 |
DaemonFC | narcissism | Sep 16 06:41 |
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_Hicham_ | u r not narcissist | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | u hate urself | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | and u gonna end up committing suicide | Sep 16 06:42 |
DaemonFC | why do you say that? | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | it is obvious | Sep 16 06:42 |
DaemonFC | because I think religion is bullshit? | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | from the way u talk | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | no | Sep 16 06:42 |
DaemonFC | or because I think people in general are bullshit? | Sep 16 06:42 |
_Hicham_ | because u r filled with crap from ur media | Sep 16 06:43 |
DaemonFC | I don't hate them for being full of shit | Sep 16 06:43 |
DaemonFC | if I had to hate people just for being full of shit, I'd hate more people than you do | Sep 16 06:43 |
DaemonFC | and that couldn't be healthy | Sep 16 06:43 |
_Hicham_ | if u keep on going like that, u gonna commit suicide for sure | Sep 16 06:44 |
_Hicham_ | so be careful | Sep 16 06:44 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Religious people amuse me | Sep 16 06:44 |
DaemonFC | just keep blowing each other up now | Sep 16 06:44 |
fewa | MinceR, nice | Sep 16 06:44 |
DaemonFC | run along | Sep 16 06:44 |
fewa | MinceR, they deserve a big smacking negligence suit over that type of things | Sep 16 06:44 |
MinceR | indeed | Sep 16 06:45 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : while u keep blowing the other way | Sep 16 06:45 |
fewa | as their own policy states they will provide security support for another 5 years | Sep 16 06:45 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: At least I've come to the truth that there is no "higher power" and if there was one that told me to murder people for no particularly good reason, I'd check myself into the psychiatric unit | Sep 16 06:46 |
DaemonFC | because that's schizophrenia you know? | Sep 16 06:46 |
DaemonFC | Religion appeals to the mentally ill, but the abuses of the religious also lead other people to become mentally ill | Sep 16 06:47 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u r really a typical american from the 50s | Sep 16 06:47 |
DaemonFC | it's like a survival mechanism | Sep 16 06:47 |
fewa | http://lifehacker.com/5349506/make-free-voip-calls-from-google-voice | Sep 16 06:47 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: How so? | Sep 16 06:47 |
_Hicham_ | Whether u like it or not, u r living in a religious country | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | Because I think your religion is entirely full of shit? | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | because I think all religion is full of shit? | Sep 16 06:48 |
_Hicham_ | think what u want | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | there's different kind of religion | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | there's ones like yours that tell you to go murder everyone else | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | there's kinds liek Christianity that just go door to door annoying people | Sep 16 06:48 |
DaemonFC | I suppose if I had to take sides, it would be door to door nuisance instead of door to door suicide bombers | Sep 16 06:49 |
_Hicham_ | does that mean that religion is bad ? | Sep 16 06:49 |
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DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Yeah | Sep 16 06:49 |
DaemonFC | some are more of a pain in the ass than others | Sep 16 06:49 |
_Hicham_ | do u have some logic in ur head ? | Sep 16 06:49 |
DaemonFC | some are actively dangerous | Sep 16 06:49 |
_Hicham_ | I mean, u seem to have brain | Sep 16 06:50 |
_Hicham_ | but, is there any logic ? | Sep 16 06:50 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: The Christians are just a pain in the ass | Sep 16 06:50 |
_Hicham_ | can u do logical computations in ur head ? | Sep 16 06:50 |
DaemonFC | on the danger scale of 1 being peaceful and 10 being suicide bomber, I'd rate them a 2 or maybe a 3 | Sep 16 06:50 |
_Hicham_ | u r insulting people for no obvious reason | Sep 16 06:50 |
zlg | more to the point he's insulting peoples belief systems, based purly on the fact that they are not his own. | Sep 16 06:51 |
_Hicham_ | what would a person blow himself in ur opinion ? | Sep 16 06:51 |
_Hicham_ | *why | Sep 16 06:51 |
DaemonFC | no, based on the fact that they are all full of shit and all are a pain in the ass, and some are an active danger | Sep 16 06:52 |
_Hicham_ | he said "all" | Sep 16 06:52 |
_Hicham_ | see ? | Sep 16 06:52 |
_Hicham_ | u should really read some basic logic | Sep 16 06:52 |
_Hicham_ | I don't know how much education u had, but the way u think is really childish | Sep 16 06:53 |
zlg | your also confusing extreeminism with religion, extreemism is more dangerous that "main stream" religion | Sep 16 06:53 |
DaemonFC | there is no such thing as extremism because they're all extremists | Sep 16 06:53 |
DaemonFC | the only question is how extreme | Sep 16 06:54 |
_Hicham_ | wow, I am an extremist then | Sep 16 06:54 |
_Hicham_ | correct ? | Sep 16 06:54 |
DaemonFC | once you start believing in invisible sky gods, you're kind of "out there" | Sep 16 06:54 |
DaemonFC | you know? | Sep 16 06:54 |
zlg | no, actually its a bell curve, with "moderates" being the peak and extreemism on well the extremities | Sep 16 06:54 |
DaemonFC | religion appeals to the extremely stupid or the extremely mentally unbalanced | Sep 16 06:55 |
DaemonFC | preferably both | Sep 16 06:55 |
MinceR | just believing that a god exists doesn't automatically make someone an extremist | Sep 16 06:55 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Yeah it does | Sep 16 06:55 |
MinceR | the associated beliefs might, though | Sep 16 06:55 |
MinceR | how? | Sep 16 06:56 |
zlg | see when you fall back on basic blind statements it's clear you cannot form a strong argument for your cause. | Sep 16 06:56 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: You're telling me that someone who says they know for sure that which cannot ever be proven is a smart person or a sane person? | Sep 16 06:56 |
_Hicham_ | he can't argue | Sep 16 06:56 |
_Hicham_ | he is a parrot | Sep 16 06:56 |
_Hicham_ | repeating the same things | Sep 16 06:56 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: I could tell you with the same conviction that pixies exist | Sep 16 06:56 |
_Hicham_ | a computer thinks than him | Sep 16 06:56 |
DaemonFC | has about as much chance as Allah | Sep 16 06:56 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: no, i'm telling you that he isn't an extremist | Sep 16 06:56 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: he can have a balanced personality | Sep 16 06:57 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: he might have guessed a truth or he might have a harmless delusion | Sep 16 06:57 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: There's something deeply wrong with a person that can even go as far as stating there is a god | Sep 16 06:57 |
DaemonFC | as fact | Sep 16 06:57 |
DaemonFC | it jsut gets worse from there | Sep 16 06:57 |
DaemonFC | *just | Sep 16 06:57 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: how does this affect their behavior? | Sep 16 06:57 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: It affects every aspect of their personality | Sep 16 06:58 |
DaemonFC | everything they do or say or think | Sep 16 06:58 |
zlg | if you know about science you cannot prove a negative, you cannot prove flying hourses DONT exit, only that you have not discovered them yet. | Sep 16 06:58 |
DaemonFC | so I'd say it's a pretty serious delusion | Sep 16 06:58 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: It affects how they interact with others | Sep 16 06:59 |
DaemonFC | how they treat women as property or objects | Sep 16 06:59 |
DaemonFC | how they are to kill or convert others | Sep 16 06:59 |
MinceR | no it doesn't | Sep 16 06:59 |
MinceR | that doesn't result from believing that there is a god | Sep 16 06:59 |
DaemonFC | just believing in god is the foundation for all kinds of wickedness | Sep 16 06:59 |
MinceR | that results from believing that said god dictates some sort of behavior by divine decree | Sep 16 06:59 |
MinceR | that's an entirely different belief | Sep 16 07:00 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Getting you to believe in their god is the foot in the door | Sep 16 07:00 |
_Hicham_ | this guy is in a serious mental illness | Sep 16 07:00 |
DaemonFC | the crazy fucked up shit comes in digestible pieces soon after | Sep 16 07:00 |
_Hicham_ | and need to go back to school | Sep 16 07:00 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: if it was then they'd all believe each other's religions | Sep 16 07:00 |
MinceR | even though they contradict each other | Sep 16 07:00 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: That's why they all teach that they are the ONE TRUE religion | Sep 16 07:01 |
DaemonFC | and that everyone else is to be converted or murdered | Sep 16 07:01 |
MinceR | not all of them teach that | Sep 16 07:01 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : I am gonna ask u a question, and try to use ur head to answer me | Sep 16 07:01 |
MinceR | learn some theology :> | Sep 16 07:01 |
_Hicham_ | ok ? | Sep 16 07:01 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Well, considering I can't Phone a Diety | Sep 16 07:02 |
DaemonFC | I guess I'm sort of on my own | Sep 16 07:02 |
DaemonFC | but I'll try | Sep 16 07:02 |
DaemonFC | *Deity | Sep 16 07:02 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: But if I am allowed to call a God to help me answer... | Sep 16 07:03 |
DaemonFC | I'll call Ganesha | Sep 16 07:03 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : how can u explain the fact that some things that were said in Quran over one thousand years ago, were proven lately to be true ? I am talking about scientific facts | Sep 16 07:03 |
DaemonFC | elephants are fucking cool | Sep 16 07:03 |
DaemonFC | that's why | Sep 16 07:03 |
_Hicham_ | explain that plz | Sep 16 07:03 |
_Hicham_ | try to use ur head | Sep 16 07:03 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Because you are selectively reading | Sep 16 07:03 |
DaemonFC | and willing to go on a stretch to make these bogus claims | Sep 16 07:04 |
zlg | you';ll have to be more specific _Hicham_ what things ? | Sep 16 07:04 |
DaemonFC | every religion will say that they've been proven true | Sep 16 07:04 |
DaemonFC | any other questions? | Sep 16 07:04 |
_Hicham_ | selectively reading the whole Quran ? | Sep 16 07:04 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: You cherry pick | Sep 16 07:04 |
DaemonFC | every religion does it | Sep 16 07:04 |
_Hicham_ | I am talking about scientific facts | Sep 16 07:04 |
MinceR | well, selectively reading "holy" texts is what they all do | Sep 16 07:04 |
_Hicham_ | give me an example of selectively reading | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: It's a given that out of 2,000-ish pages in the typical holy book, that there will be some things that are correct | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | it's jsut not avoidable | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | it's like throwing darts over your shoulder til you hit a bulsleye | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | given 2,000 darts, you probably will hit a few | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | *bullseye | Sep 16 07:05 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: If *I* wrote a 2,000 page book with predictions of what the world would be like 1,000 years from now | Sep 16 07:06 |
DaemonFC | chances are *I* would get a few things about right | Sep 16 07:06 |
zlg | saying if something in a book really happened or not is certainly no proof of a god. | Sep 16 07:06 |
_Hicham_ | not predictions | Sep 16 07:06 |
_Hicham_ | just scientific facts | Sep 16 07:06 |
DaemonFC | and people who worship me as their prophet would point at the 10 things I got right out of 2,000 "predictions" | Sep 16 07:06 |
DaemonFC | and use it to bullshit people about how their religion based on DaemonFC worship is the one true way | Sep 16 07:07 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Nobody is _always_ wrong | Sep 16 07:07 |
DaemonFC | even the most pathological liar will occasionally tell the truth | Sep 16 07:08 |
DaemonFC | even an idiot will have a moment of clarity | Sep 16 07:08 |
DaemonFC | and even religions will get something right now and then | Sep 16 07:08 |
DaemonFC | if they never did, they wouldn't appeal to anyone | Sep 16 07:08 |
_Hicham_ | can u explain human embryonic development ? | Sep 16 07:09 |
DaemonFC | I'm not a scientist | Sep 16 07:09 |
_Hicham_ | said in Quran | Sep 16 07:09 |
DaemonFC | I'd go ask a scientist | Sep 16 07:09 |
_Hicham_ | it was said in a time where there was no science | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: I doubt it | Sep 16 07:10 |
_Hicham_ | the development was explained thouroughly | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | you're reading into this too much | Sep 16 07:10 |
_Hicham_ | no | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | grasping at straws | Sep 16 07:10 |
MinceR | well, that time is over, no need for "holy" texts anymore | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | to justify yourself | Sep 16 07:10 |
_Hicham_ | it is explained very well, in clear sentences | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | I doubt the Qur'an explains DNA sequences | Sep 16 07:10 |
DaemonFC | or chromosomes | Sep 16 07:11 |
zlg | why should it ? | Sep 16 07:11 |
DaemonFC | it couldn't, because they couldn't know about any such thing back then | Sep 16 07:11 |
DaemonFC | which is why I don't believe _Hicham_ | Sep 16 07:11 |
_Hicham_ | how could they know the embryonic development ? | Sep 16 07:11 |
zlg | we'll you answered your own question , your point is ? | Sep 16 07:11 |
DaemonFC | zlg: It's either knowledge acquired through scientific observation or it's a lucky guess | Sep 16 07:12 |
DaemonFC | lucky guesses aren't specific | Sep 16 07:12 |
DaemonFC | lucky guesses fill religious texts | Sep 16 07:12 |
DaemonFC | the page or two of every religious book that become the most cited of the entire book | Sep 16 07:13 |
zlg | or its history, taken from actual real observation, or a story written as fiction, it['s _NOT_ just one OR the other. | Sep 16 07:13 |
DaemonFC | a work of fiction and religion are more or less the same thing | Sep 16 07:13 |
DaemonFC | L. Ron Hubbard turned science fiction into a multi billion dollar religion | Sep 16 07:14 |
zlg | Da vinci code contained facts and things that really happend, but the compte story is fiction. | Sep 16 07:14 |
DaemonFC | people are stupid and easily deceived | Sep 16 07:14 |
DaemonFC | and therefore, they believe truly ANYTHING | Sep 16 07:14 |
DaemonFC | a person is smart, a person thinks for themselves | Sep 16 07:15 |
DaemonFC | _people_ are dumb | Sep 16 07:15 |
DaemonFC | people engage in groupthink | Sep 16 07:15 |
zlg | what I said before, just because something true happend in a book does not mean that is proof of the existance of a god, or proof of the NON existance of it. | Sep 16 07:15 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: The freedom to figure things out for yourself is the only freedom you have | Sep 16 07:16 |
DaemonFC | to give that to religion is selling yourself into bondage | Sep 16 07:16 |
MinceR | you are free to make mistakes, too :> | Sep 16 07:16 |
zlg | what if you use that FREEDOM to think for yourself and you think you decide upon religious belief ? | Sep 16 07:16 |
DaemonFC | zlg: A lot of people can't think for themselves and so turn over their thinking to religion | Sep 16 07:17 |
_Hicham_ | wrong | Sep 16 07:17 |
_Hicham_ | very wrong | Sep 16 07:17 |
DaemonFC | zlg: The people that develop religions due it for obvious reasons | Sep 16 07:17 |
_Hicham_ | religion is not against thinking | Sep 16 07:17 |
DaemonFC | to victimize and exploit less intelligent people | Sep 16 07:17 |
DaemonFC | notbecause they believe it | Sep 16 07:17 |
DaemonFC | religion is widespread because governments can use it to "legitimize" themselves | Sep 16 07:18 |
DaemonFC | to exert power over you | Sep 16 07:18 |
MinceR | not only governments | Sep 16 07:18 |
DaemonFC | you would question the president, but you won't question God | Sep 16 07:18 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Every government promotes religion to some extent | Sep 16 07:19 |
DaemonFC | and in return, the religion tells followers to be patriotic | Sep 16 07:19 |
zlg | why is it if you are so anti religious you still have to spell God with a Capitol ?? :D | Sep 16 07:19 |
DaemonFC | zlg: In a sense that they have personified a specific "God" | Sep 16 07:19 |
DaemonFC | in the sense that they fear "God" | Sep 16 07:20 |
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DaemonFC | in a sense that they obey anything "God" tells them | Sep 16 07:20 |
DaemonFC | the capitalization is my way of mocking them | Sep 16 07:20 |
zlg | it's usually a sign of reverence | Sep 16 07:20 |
_Hicham_ | American is christian | Sep 16 07:20 |
_Hicham_ | why the president have to swear using the Bible ? | Sep 16 07:21 |
DaemonFC | zlg: You also capitalize the names of fictional characters | Sep 16 07:21 |
_Hicham_ | *America | Sep 16 07:21 |
DaemonFC | so I suppose there's that too | Sep 16 07:21 |
DaemonFC | I'm referring to the fictional character of God, or of Allah, or of Ganesh | Sep 16 07:21 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_ worships a cartoon | Sep 16 07:21 |
DaemonFC | he may as well | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: actually not every government does, at least not in the commonly accepted strict sense of the word 'religion' | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: when we had a socialist government here, they were pretty much against it | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | (during the dictatorship, that is) | Sep 16 07:22 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: And what happened to that government? | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | it failed eventually | Sep 16 07:22 |
DaemonFC | of course | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | along with the USSR and the entire eastern bloc | Sep 16 07:22 |
DaemonFC | because you questioned it | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | no, not because of that | Sep 16 07:22 |
DaemonFC | and when you questioned it, you got rid of it | Sep 16 07:22 |
MinceR | probably because they ruined economy by following their bullshit ideology | Sep 16 07:23 |
DaemonFC | even the PRC is allowing religion now | Sep 16 07:23 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u talk like an opressed child | Sep 16 07:23 |
DaemonFC | experimenting with allowing it anyway | Sep 16 07:23 |
MinceR | the PRC is not the same kind of socialist dictatorship | Sep 16 07:23 |
_Hicham_ | because u r lacking freedom | Sep 16 07:23 |
_Hicham_ | u r not free | Sep 16 07:23 |
DaemonFC | they know that having a religious population and religions that sign off on the government is the only way to lasting stability | Sep 16 07:23 |
_Hicham_ | and u don't feel free | Sep 16 07:23 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Religion *is* the opium of the people | Sep 16 07:24 |
DaemonFC | that's why Communism has a hard time thriving | Sep 16 07:24 |
_Hicham_ | haha | Sep 16 07:24 |
_Hicham_ | read too much Marx | Sep 16 07:24 |
DaemonFC | they took the opium away | Sep 16 07:24 |
MinceR | then again you could say that cult of personality is a sort of religion, too | Sep 16 07:24 |
_Hicham_ | no, u still have opium in america | Sep 16 07:24 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: It's just an irony that Communism sews the seeds of its own collapse | Sep 16 07:24 |
DaemonFC | that's why the surviving Communist regimes are trying to set up state approved religions | Sep 16 07:25 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: the people don't have to get their opium from the government | Sep 16 07:25 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: Ask yourself if you believe the things you're told | Sep 16 07:26 |
DaemonFC | don't go ask some religious figure what you should believe | Sep 16 07:26 |
DaemonFC | of course they'll tell you to believe even more | Sep 16 07:26 |
_Hicham_ | I always use my mind | Sep 16 07:26 |
_Hicham_ | and I am happy to use it | Sep 16 07:26 |
DaemonFC | ask yourself if you can do the things they ask of you in good conscience | Sep 16 07:26 |
_Hicham_ | to find things out myself | Sep 16 07:26 |
_Hicham_ | my religion is organizing society | Sep 16 07:26 |
_Hicham_ | not telling me how to think | Sep 16 07:27 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: They're subtle in many cases | Sep 16 07:27 |
DaemonFC | they work their evil in small doses | Sep 16 07:27 |
_Hicham_ | think of my religion as a spec | Sep 16 07:27 |
_Hicham_ | it may be implemented in different way | Sep 16 07:27 |
_Hicham_ | but if u adhere to the specs, u won't get lost | Sep 16 07:28 |
_Hicham_ | and produce a very good implementation | Sep 16 07:28 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] RT: @channeldvorak: Obama supports extending Patriot Act http://bit.ly/1c3VND | Sep 16 07:28 | |
_Hicham_ | that is a simple way to see my religion | Sep 16 07:28 |
DaemonFC | anything that tells you to kill or hate or oppress for them without asking if there's a good reason is not something I want any part of | Sep 16 07:28 |
Diablo-D3 | http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/15/dj-heros-daft-punk-trailer-will-robot-rock-you/ | Sep 16 07:28 |
DaemonFC | in my case, they were asking me to hate and oppress myself | Sep 16 07:29 |
DaemonFC | not in so many words | Sep 16 07:29 |
DaemonFC | they never say god hates you, not directly | Sep 16 07:29 |
DaemonFC | they say "god hates what you're doing" | Sep 16 07:29 |
_Hicham_ | this KMS is changing the way we have to code OpenGL programs | Sep 16 07:30 |
DaemonFC | so they can skirt around their own ground rule that god doesn't hate anyone | Sep 16 07:30 |
_Hicham_ | anyone in here is using OpenGL on Linux ? | Sep 16 07:30 |
_Hicham_ | any 3D Linux Programmer in here ? | Sep 16 07:30 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_: If you use desktop compositing, you are | Sep 16 07:30 |
MinceR | i'm using opengl on linux | Sep 16 07:30 |
_Hicham_ | it is not about desktop compositing | Sep 16 07:30 |
MinceR | for desktop compositing and gaming | Sep 16 07:30 |
DaemonFC | KMS is probably not going to be in Nvidia for a long time | Sep 16 07:31 |
_Hicham_ | writing OpenGL programs for KMS enabled machines means less code | Sep 16 07:31 |
DaemonFC | anyhow, bbl | Sep 16 07:31 |
_Hicham_ | and also, less cpu/gpu power | Sep 16 07:33 |
MinceR | i'd expect it to normally mean no difference in coding | Sep 16 07:33 |
MinceR | as the opengl libraries remain the same | Sep 16 07:33 |
_Hicham_ | the OpenGL libraries remain the same | Sep 16 07:33 |
MinceR | (and so do the headers) | Sep 16 07:34 |
_Hicham_ | but some loops and signals can be omitted with KMS | Sep 16 07:34 |
_Hicham_ | because the kernel handles them | Sep 16 07:34 |
_Hicham_ | directly | Sep 16 07:34 |
*jono has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 16 07:35 | |
MinceR | it's probably not a good idea to omit them, as that would break portability :> | Sep 16 07:37 |
_Hicham_ | yes, that is what I am talking about | Sep 16 07:39 |
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 16 07:51 | |
schestowitz | Obama supports extending Patriot Act provisions < http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090915/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_patriot_act > Another one for the Obama puppet. Instead of rescinding it as he promised, it gets extended | Sep 16 08:12 |
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 16 08:15 | |
fewa | yeah same for his promise for transparancy and accountability | Sep 16 08:15 |
schestowitz | He's a good president | Sep 16 08:15 |
schestowitz | To 'them', not to the citizens | Sep 16 08:16 |
fewa | when his lawyers go before the district court of appeals and claim that noone can sue anyone President for any reason under any circumstances | Sep 16 08:16 |
fewa | *noone can sue the President for any reason under any circumstances | Sep 16 08:16 |
schestowitz | They plan on recruiting for "civil service" | Sep 16 08:16 |
schestowitz | Like unarmed police to 'control things' | Sep 16 08:16 |
schestowitz | 3 months or so for every citizens | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | And para-military sort of thing for every young person, too | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | What is this? | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | Are they at war? | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | Answer: yes | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | War with themselves | Sep 16 08:17 |
schestowitz | War of classes | Sep 16 08:17 |
fewa | propaganda terms: "enemy combatant" instead of Prisoner of War; "enhanced interrogation techniques" instead of Torture | Sep 16 08:18 |
schestowitz | [08:16] <fewa> *noone can sue the President for any reason under any circumstances | Sep 16 08:18 |
schestowitz | What about the Fedral Reserve? It's about the law. | Sep 16 08:18 |
schestowitz | Not even the government has veto power over it | Sep 16 08:18 |
fewa | I'm not kidding about that one | Sep 16 08:18 |
fewa | http://www.eff.org/press/archives/2009/04/05 | Sep 16 08:19 |
schestowitz | At least it says "Obama Administration" and not "Obama" | Sep 16 08:20 |
fewa | and I said "his lawyers" | Sep 16 08:20 |
schestowitz | Same old administration (with some "obama" brand around it), same old plans | Sep 16 08:20 |
fewa | Clinton all over again | Sep 16 08:20 |
schestowitz | WHat about NAFTA? | Sep 16 08:21 |
schestowitz | So many people got suckered | Sep 16 08:21 |
fewa | just recently they decided that the easiest way to control the deficiet is to take it out of senior citizen's social security checks | Sep 16 08:21 |
schestowitz | Bob Sutor got annoyed when I told him that... | Sep 16 08:21 |
fewa | by faking inflation numbers | Sep 16 08:21 |
schestowitz | So many people still live in Obama WOnderland and won't pay attention to what happens | Sep 16 08:21 |
fewa | liferea | Sep 16 08:21 |
schestowitz | THey have "won"... they elected 'their' man... all will be fine now | Sep 16 08:22 |
schestowitz | Oh wait.... | Sep 16 08:22 |
schestowitz | I saw something good yesterday: | Sep 16 08:22 |
schestowitz | http://www.prwatch.org/node/8552 | Sep 16 08:22 |
fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2J84_t7O_E | Sep 16 08:22 |
fewa | ^Obama fixing inflation | Sep 16 08:22 |
schestowitz | This should be at the front page of every paper | Sep 16 08:22 |
schestowitz | [08:22] <fewa> ^Obama fixing inflation | Sep 16 08:23 |
fewa | Ripping people off of their social security | Sep 16 08:23 |
schestowitz | You mean, the WallStreeters who run his 'cabinet'? | Sep 16 08:23 |
fewa | Its the consequence of our government cash-based accounting | Sep 16 08:23 |
*schestowitz is blinded by FOX. | Sep 16 08:23 | |
fewa | any corporation that did such a thing would have its CEO put in jail | Sep 16 08:24 |
fewa | schestowitz, agreed | Sep 16 08:24 |
fewa | amazing he fights them on their home turf | Sep 16 08:24 |
fewa | also here: | Sep 16 08:24 |
fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddQiDABXeeE | Sep 16 08:24 |
schestowitz | Fox again???? | Sep 16 08:25 |
fewa | But not only FOX plays spin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LX0nPFKkow http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/464837/joe_scarborough_is_shocked_yet_awed_by_single_payer_logic | Sep 16 08:25 |
fewa | well I disclaimed it | Sep 16 08:25 |
fewa | <fewa> amazing he fights them on their home turf | Sep 16 08:25 |
fewa | ie Faux | Sep 16 08:26 |
schestowitz | I se. | Sep 16 08:26 |
schestowitz | I see. Well, better than preaching to the chair | Sep 16 08:26 |
schestowitz | Or choir even! | Sep 16 08:26 |
fewa | lawl | Sep 16 08:26 |
fewa | I like LiberalViewer on youtube | Sep 16 08:27 |
fewa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3knq1QLODXc | Sep 16 08:27 |
fewa | has a great log of Faux bias http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A3BD2524FE99BD4D | Sep 16 08:28 |
fewa | but as you see MSNBC morning joe just spouted the corporate line | Sep 16 08:30 |
fewa | until Weiner clearly stated "the emperor has no clothes" | Sep 16 08:31 |
*schestowitz watches | Sep 16 08:31 | |
fewa | <schestowitz> You mean, the WallStreeters who run his 'cabinet'? | Sep 16 08:32 |
fewa | Yes | Sep 16 08:32 |
fewa | but it is Obama that hired them, and Obama that can change things at the stroke of a pen | Sep 16 08:32 |
schestowitz | Even Rahm Emmanuel is a former bankster | Sep 16 08:32 |
schestowitz | AP Enterprise: Bullying laws give scant protection http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjqcqrm_CK2L9A3Rby5v8NcfNwUwD9AN0ULG0 | Sep 16 08:32 |
fewa | Obama could pull of Iraq | Sep 16 08:35 |
fewa | something the majority of Americans want, and the vast majority of those who elected him want | Sep 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | I bookmarked that Fox deception gallery fir later viewing | Sep 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | Is Google Just Toying With Newspapers Now? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090915/1113506203.shtml > | Sep 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | [08:35] <fewa> Obama could pull of Iraq | Sep 16 08:36 |
schestowitz | He hasn't | Sep 16 08:36 |
fewa | Thats why i say "could" | Sep 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | And they found a loophole | Sep 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | I'd need to find the ref | Sep 16 08:37 |
fewa | He is not representing those who elected him | Sep 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | THey could use non-perms or something | Sep 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | The plan is not to quit | Sep 16 08:37 |
fewa | He is not fufilling the promises that were the foundations of his election | Sep 16 08:37 |
*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?") | Sep 16 08:37 | |
schestowitz | And they also increase presence (occupation) in Afghanistan | Sep 16 08:37 |
fewa | We are always at war with Iraq | Sep 16 08:37 |
schestowitz | It's a strategic thing, to control world's fossil fuel | Sep 16 08:37 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: You criticize Fox News? | Sep 16 08:38 |
schestowitz | and also to police countries that can get nuclear arms in the middle east | Sep 16 08:38 |
DaemonFC | sounds like you're parroting their hysteria to me | Sep 16 08:38 |
fewa | DaemonFC, screw off | Sep 16 08:38 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: haha. | Sep 16 08:38 |
schestowitz | Where? | Sep 16 08:38 |
DaemonFC | hold on a sec | Sep 16 08:38 |
fewa | He could set Detroit up to reemployee all those highly skilled workers making Wind turbines | Sep 16 08:38 |
fewa | getting this country out of its oil dependancy | Sep 16 08:38 |
DaemonFC | [03:19] <schestowitz> They plan on recruiting for "civil service" | Sep 16 08:39 |
DaemonFC | [03:19] <schestowitz> Like unarmed police to 'control things' | Sep 16 08:39 |
schestowitz | What about wuartedly goals, fewa | Sep 16 08:39 |
schestowitz | The corps don't like long-term investements | Sep 16 08:39 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Ann Coulter much? | Sep 16 08:39 |
fewa | He could actually push through health care reform | Sep 16 08:39 |
fewa | the people want | Sep 16 08:39 |
schestowitz | They are run by people in their 60s to whom there is not much of a future anyway | Sep 16 08:39 |
fewa | *the people want it | Sep 16 08:39 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: I don't watch him [sic | Sep 16 08:39 |
fewa | and if it is not passed it the cost will destroy this country | Sep 16 08:39 |
fewa | its a pay or die system | Sep 16 08:40 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: This isn't the brown shirts | Sep 16 08:40 |
DaemonFC | Obama is not Hitler | Sep 16 08:40 |
fewa | DaemonFC, what is your beef? | Sep 16 08:40 |
DaemonFC | and you need to stop watching the news in CoulterVision | Sep 16 08:40 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: if you're gonna troll, piss off | Sep 16 08:40 |
fewa | DaemonFC, you keep putting words in his mouth that he did not say and dropping word bombs | Sep 16 08:40 |
DaemonFC | fewa: It sounds like the Republican hysteria to me | Sep 16 08:41 |
DaemonFC | this is exactly the kind of stuff Ann Coulter claims | Sep 16 08:41 |
DaemonFC | Nazi brown shirts across America | Sep 16 08:41 |
fewa | DaemonFC, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3knq1QLODXc | Sep 16 08:41 |
fewa | stop spreading junk | Sep 16 08:41 |
schestowitz | It's truly a shame that one needs to care so much about US politics even outside the STates. That's where a lot of influence (and abuse) routinely comes from | Sep 16 08:42 |
schestowitz | Did you hear about France? | Sep 16 08:42 |
fewa | what happened there? | Sep 16 08:42 |
schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8257720.stm | Sep 16 08:43 |
schestowitz | Hollywood MAFIAA takes over French Internet | Sep 16 08:43 |
fewa | schestowitz, like the attack on the NHS? | Sep 16 08:43 |
schestowitz | And now they want the UK also.. Japan and so on. | Sep 16 08:43 |
schestowitz | They don't get enough of their own Internet | Sep 16 08:43 |
DaemonFC | fewa: It's well known that Fox News spends an inordinate amount of time trying to fuel crackpot conspiracy theories | Sep 16 08:43 |
schestowitz | They expand digitally | Sep 16 08:43 |
DaemonFC | and employs talking heads to do it | Sep 16 08:43 |
schestowitz | I look forward to seeing them passing ACTA in a rush after making it visible for 2 days | Sep 16 08:44 |
fewa | DaemonFC, you want nothing but grime | Sep 16 08:44 |
DaemonFC | the world is a pretty nasty place, fewa | Sep 16 08:44 |
DaemonFC | it's always some kind of idiot/asshole/troublemaker | Sep 16 08:44 |
fewa | schestowitz, http://readthebill.org/ | Sep 16 08:44 |
trmanco | pft | Sep 16 08:45 |
trmanco | so much for hotmail's uptime... | Sep 16 08:45 |
fewa | trmanco, "Microsoft technology" | Sep 16 08:46 |
schestowitz | Patch Tuesday was a week ago | Sep 16 08:46 |
schestowitz | Maybe a computer threw a hissy | Sep 16 08:46 |
DaemonFC | the crazier and further to the political far right you are, the more time you get on Fox News | Sep 16 08:46 |
fewa | sort of unrelated chomsky interview http://www.chomsky.info/2009_09_01_archive.htm#192415030754129099 "Absolutely not -- those are some of the most grotesque propaganda lies of the current period -- the US supported the invasion fully -- it provided decisive support for it, military, diplomatic and so on, and the British joined it, and it started to peak in 1978, and the massacres escalated in 1999, right before the referendum, the US continued to s | Sep 16 08:46 |
fewa | upport it fully, Britain continued to support it fully, and they were much worse than anything reported in Kosovo at the same period. And the US continued to support it, even at the height of the massacres in Dili in late August, 1999 -- finally, Clinton came under such intense domestic pressure -- much from the right wing and the Catholic Church, that he just told the Indonesians quietly, "okay, the game is over" and they went home -- instantly. Th | Sep 16 08:46 |
fewa | at shows what could have been done for the past 25 years. And Britain lagged -- it kept supplying Indonesia with military hardware, even after the UN peacekeeping force went. I mean, these are the most outrageous claims." | Sep 16 08:46 |
schestowitz | Didn't some Microsoft DC catch a virus recently? | Sep 16 08:46 |
DaemonFC | That's why it's about half Coulter and have Michelle Bachmann | Sep 16 08:46 |
fewa | It's the same moral issue that arises all the time -- even with the trials. I mean yes, Israel is doing terrible things. Why? Because the US is supporting it -- its like Indonesia and East Timor -- as soon as Clinton told the Indonesians that its over -- they didn't have bomb or boycott -- they just told them its over,. They withdrew instantly. If the US stopped providing decisive military, economic, ideological support, Israeli couldn't do what it' | Sep 16 08:47 |
fewa | s doing. Well why doesn't anyone talk about boycotting the US? Because it's too powerful. | Sep 16 08:47 |
trmanco | it's back | Sep 16 08:47 |
DaemonFC | *half | Sep 16 08:47 |
trmanco | bbl | Sep 16 08:47 |
fewa | DaemonFC, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIvYSKQLA4c | Sep 16 08:47 |
DaemonFC | fewa: If there was any kind of "morality" in the world, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would cease to exist | Sep 16 08:47 |
DaemonFC | as well as a few others | Sep 16 08:48 |
DaemonFC | the fact that they together control more than 2/3rds of the world population shows what a terrible place this is | Sep 16 08:48 |
fewa | DaemonFC, control? | Sep 16 08:48 |
DaemonFC | that's all they are | Sep 16 08:48 |
DaemonFC | control | Sep 16 08:48 |
DaemonFC | that's all they do | Sep 16 08:48 |
fewa | DaemonFC, who? | Sep 16 08:49 |
DaemonFC | it's like you have Islam, Christianity, and Judaism beaming bozo rays into everybody's brains | Sep 16 08:49 |
DaemonFC | 24/7/365 | Sep 16 08:49 |
fewa | DaemonFC, the only really organized group is the catholics | Sep 16 08:49 |
DaemonFC | doesn't make them much more pleasant | Sep 16 08:50 |
DaemonFC | but like any large, stable system, they try not to rock the boat as much as other smaller groups | Sep 16 08:51 |
DaemonFC | they're just your every day whiners and complainers | Sep 16 08:51 |
DaemonFC | they whine for 5 minutes and go away | Sep 16 08:51 |
DaemonFC | then they do it again over the next thing | Sep 16 08:51 |
DaemonFC | the Catholics are organized whiners | Sep 16 08:51 |
fewa | Teenager unemployeement is the highest in recorded history; since 1949 | Sep 16 08:52 |
fewa | *in the US | Sep 16 08:52 |
DaemonFC | the rest of the Christians are mostly a loose confederation of dangerously unbalanced outright hate mongers | Sep 16 08:52 |
DaemonFC | but most of them are too chickenshit to do anything, personally | Sep 16 08:52 |
_goblin | DaemonFC: Does it matter? You either believe or not...Obviously you have your own views on religion...just like everyone else is entitled to. | Sep 16 08:53 |
_goblin | who's to say who is correct? | Sep 16 08:53 |
DaemonFC | out of all the deranged Christian sects in the US, I'd say only about 1-3% of them pose real danger to society at large in the form of violence | Sep 16 08:53 |
_goblin | thats what you say. | Sep 16 08:54 |
DaemonFC | the rest of them work to incite the problem | Sep 16 08:54 |
_goblin | and you are not going to change anything by typing in BN | Sep 16 08:54 |
DaemonFC | very few of them have the stomach to carry things out | Sep 16 08:54 |
_goblin | you are merely insulting religion on a basis of your own distorted views. | Sep 16 08:54 |
DaemonFC | every once in a while you hear about a Christian terrorist shooting up a gay bar or bombing a women's clinic | Sep 16 08:55 |
_goblin | evil people.....they are in every section of society.... | Sep 16 08:55 |
DaemonFC | but it takes thousands to fan the flames for every one crazy that actually carries things out | Sep 16 08:55 |
DaemonFC | not very efficient | Sep 16 08:55 |
DaemonFC | the Muslims are much more efficient at convincing their followers to kill people they hate | Sep 16 08:55 |
_goblin | where in their religious text does it condone or approve this> | Sep 16 08:56 |
_goblin | ? | Sep 16 08:56 |
_goblin | I'd love to know.... | Sep 16 08:56 |
DaemonFC | it's like a Code Red | Sep 16 08:56 |
fewa | "You are the change you wish to see in the world" | Sep 16 08:56 |
DaemonFC | nobody actually ordered it | Sep 16 08:56 |
DaemonFC | but it happens anyway :) | Sep 16 08:56 |
_goblin | probably the same place the IRA got their justification... | Sep 16 08:56 |
fewa | -- Mahatma Gandhi | Sep 16 08:56 |
_goblin | where was the justification for the invasion of Afghanistan? | Sep 16 08:57 |
DaemonFC | fewa: The Christians don't tell people to murder, they just incite enough hate that eventually one of their followers decides to do it on their own | Sep 16 08:57 |
DaemonFC | that way it gives the church plausible deniability | Sep 16 08:57 |
DaemonFC | fewa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability | Sep 16 08:58 |
DaemonFC | "Plausible deniability refers to the denial of blame in loose and informal chains of command where upper rungs quarantine the blame to the lower rungs. In the case that illegal or otherwise disreputable and unpopular activities become public, high-ranking officials may deny any awareness of such act or any connection to the agents used to carry out such act." | Sep 16 08:58 |
DaemonFC | Christian churches | Sep 16 08:58 |
_goblin | I think I've read enough.....ignore switched on. | Sep 16 08:59 |
_goblin | great news about ITV dumping silverlight. | Sep 16 08:59 |
fewa | blight | Sep 16 08:59 |
_goblin | I've been waiting for that to happen... | Sep 16 08:59 |
_goblin | say what you will about the BBC its iplayer service is very good. | Sep 16 09:00 |
DaemonFC | fewa: The fact that churches in the United States have to resort to inciting the crime and falling back to plausible deniability tells you that they don't run the show here | Sep 16 09:00 |
DaemonFC | in Iran, they jsut openly murder people that break Islamic law | Sep 16 09:00 |
*fewa ignoring also | Sep 16 09:00 | |
_goblin | lets hope that ITV emulates it... | Sep 16 09:00 |
_goblin | Ive been looking at EyeOS....quite a nice little cloud..... | Sep 16 09:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @nickballard RT: @channeldvorak: Obama supports extending Patriot Act http://bit.ly/1c3VND | Sep 16 09:03 | |
schestowitz | _goblin: the Microsoft lackey at the MSBBC (Erik Huggers) said they'd 'open' the iPlayer platform | Sep 16 09:04 |
schestowitz | Also:http://ttimo.vox.com/library/post/id-software-and-linux.html | Sep 16 09:04 |
schestowitz | Microsoft is nervous about Linux.... | Sep 16 09:04 |
schestowitz | They lost their lockin | Sep 16 09:04 |
_goblin | Id say its petrified! | Sep 16 09:04 |
schestowitz | There's a new talking point to watch out for | Sep 16 09:04 |
schestowitz | Microsoft pretends all in success is hinged on VIsta 7 | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | ANd it pressures people to abandon XP (but only in one route) | Sep 16 09:05 |
_goblin | Monty still hasn't printed my responses..... | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | They try to force a push to Vista7 | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | And they tell shareholders it will make a turnaround | Sep 16 09:05 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: XP is gonna be around for a while | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | They bully critics of Vista 7 | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | I saw it yesterday... last time I saw it | Sep 16 09:05 |
DaemonFC | that's not a good thing for MS | Sep 16 09:05 |
_goblin | I think people will see that and remember the same was tried with Vista. | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | They don't commit a crime | Sep 16 09:05 |
schestowitz | It's like the Radian6 BS | Sep 16 09:06 |
schestowitz | They stalk people | Sep 16 09:06 |
schestowitz | ANd they 'punish' critics | Sep 16 09:06 |
DaemonFC | they fucked up royally by making sure almost everyone needed a new system to run Vista | Sep 16 09:06 |
_goblin | they'd be in for a shock if they tried to punish me! | Sep 16 09:06 |
DaemonFC | a lot of companies panicked and hoarded XP | Sep 16 09:06 |
schestowitz | _goblin: they tried me | Sep 16 09:06 |
schestowitz | I reported them to the FTC | Sep 16 09:06 |
schestowitz | And got a reply | Sep 16 09:06 |
DaemonFC | meaning their ten year upgrade cycle takes them to around 2016 before Microsoft can even hope to sell anything else | Sep 16 09:06 |
_goblin | I have an advantage (I believe) over you.......in respect of what I am.... | Sep 16 09:07 |
DaemonFC | it's enough so that Microsoft can't really grow their bottom line | Sep 16 09:07 |
DaemonFC | they'll do a lot of gimmicks to get "sales" up, but they'll average less profit on every sale to do it | Sep 16 09:07 |
schestowitz | Atheros Intros New Combo Chip http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/news/article.phpr/3839251 | Sep 16 09:08 |
_goblin | I'll have to send you an email prior to meeting you for a drink! | Sep 16 09:08 |
DaemonFC | they've gotten themselves into a race to the bottom | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | They'll lie about "Sales" | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | Like they did Vista | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | It's a company of lies and lawsuits | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | And we'll all call it ou | Sep 16 09:08 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: One interesting thing is downgrade rights from Windows 7 to XP | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | *out | Sep 16 09:08 |
DaemonFC | a lot of businesses were buying "Vista" licenses and using it to downgrade to XP | Sep 16 09:08 |
schestowitz | They count as VIsta 7 sales | Sep 16 09:09 |
schestowitz | Same trick done with Vista | Sep 16 09:09 |
DaemonFC | MS still counted those as Vista sales | Sep 16 09:09 |
schestowitz | This counts as TWO Vista sales | Sep 16 09:09 |
fewa | They attack and distort wikipedia | Sep 16 09:09 |
fewa | censor dissent | Sep 16 09:09 |
_goblin | I always wondered why MS says Vista was so popular yet I know more Linux users than I do Vista ones. | Sep 16 09:09 |
fewa | promulgate Microsoft truths | Sep 16 09:09 |
schestowitz | WTF? http://www.computeractive.co.uk/computeractive/q-and-a/2249519/remove-linux | Sep 16 09:09 |
_goblin | checking the link! | Sep 16 09:10 |
DaemonFC | I've seen a lot of people run screaming back to XP | Sep 16 09:10 |
fewa | "truths" | Sep 16 09:10 |
DaemonFC | it's no longer "sold", but it's easily downloaded off of bittorrent | Sep 16 09:10 |
DaemonFC | that's where it's coming from | Sep 16 09:10 |
fewa | a tiny sentence to Linux | Sep 16 09:11 |
DaemonFC | really if the choice is 8 year old Windows or modern Linux, where is the argument for Windows? | Sep 16 09:11 |
fewa | lawl, installing Windows from CD requires hours of installing drivers | Sep 16 09:11 |
DaemonFC | I have no idea why they go back to XP, maybe it's habit | Sep 16 09:11 |
DaemonFC | XP turns 8 years old next month | Sep 16 09:12 |
schestowitz | "Microsoft abandons 'squirting'" http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/09/zune_stops_squirting_and_adds_features_people_might_actually_use.html?ana=from_rss | Sep 16 09:12 |
_goblin | Quote "Although there is no reformat option in Linux, both Windows XP and Vista are capable of reformatting the hard disk during installation." | Sep 16 09:12 |
DaemonFC | XP is older than the cars most people drive | Sep 16 09:12 |
_goblin | er theres a reformat option in most mainstream Linux distro's. | Sep 16 09:12 |
schestowitz | Isn't "Deleting Linux" a top result in microsoft.com? | Sep 16 09:13 |
_goblin | infact I can't think of one install procedure that doesn't allow you to reformation the entire harddisk for use with it. | Sep 16 09:13 |
fewa | schestowitz, microsoft wants to pretend Linux does not exist | Sep 16 09:13 |
fewa | they conflate it with "UNIX" | Sep 16 09:14 |
_goblin | really got to make another Chromium build......I've been left behind a little.... | Sep 16 09:15 |
fewa | Windows is also incapable of no whiping your MBR | Sep 16 09:15 |
DaemonFC | in place upgrades don't do that | Sep 16 09:15 |
_goblin | I'm still running 4.0.207.0 I believe its had a few upgrades since then.... | Sep 16 09:16 |
DaemonFC | everything else does | Sep 16 09:16 |
fewa | im running 4.0.209.0 | Sep 16 09:18 |
fewa | they sure inflated the major version number fast | Sep 16 09:18 |
_goblin | yep, Im behind then.... | Sep 16 09:18 |
fewa | guess they had to get above Firefox in a spiffy | Sep 16 09:18 |
_goblin | mind you Ive had no issues with it to really note. | Sep 16 09:18 |
fewa | pretty soon it will be version 9 | Sep 16 09:18 |
DaemonFC | I'm using Konqueror more and more | Sep 16 09:20 |
schestowitz | fewa: they are past the point of denying Linux' existence | Sep 16 09:28 |
schestowitz | See Best Bribe training for details | Sep 16 09:28 |
fewa | shit | Sep 16 09:29 |
fewa | There is a guy on Yahoo answers that works like that | Sep 16 09:29 |
fewa | and says he was a best buy employee | Sep 16 09:29 |
fewa | meanwhile target dumps its Linux netbooks | Sep 16 09:30 |
fewa | and goes Windows-only | Sep 16 09:30 |
schestowitz | Whose chagrin? | Sep 16 09:30 |
schestowitz | The US regulation is too weak | Sep 16 09:30 |
fewa | I was in Target and asked about netbooks | Sep 16 09:30 |
fewa | and the employee said that he was too familier with XP and couldnt get use to Linux | Sep 16 09:31 |
fewa | and recommended that I wait and buy a XP one | Sep 16 09:31 |
fewa | (could well be sincere) | Sep 16 09:31 |
cubezzz | well it's the customer's opinion that counts :) | Sep 16 09:35 |
cubezzz | if the customer wants linux, they get linux | Sep 16 09:35 |
fewa | not when the maket fails to provide choice | Sep 16 09:37 |
fewa | For example look at transportation | Sep 16 09:38 |
fewa | I can choose which brand and model of car to buy | Sep 16 09:38 |
fewa | buy I can't choose between train and car | Sep 16 09:38 |
fewa | its one of those fundamental failures of market systems | Sep 16 09:38 |
fewa | But yeah, if people demand Linux, they will get it | Sep 16 09:39 |
fewa | "The Vole tells Best Buy staff to claim that World of Warcraft is incompatible with Linux, despite the fact that it works pretty well if you use WINE" | Sep 16 09:41 |
fewa | even the article get its wrong about WINE though | Sep 16 09:41 |
fewa | with play on linux installing Windows applications on Linux is as easy as installing them on Windows | Sep 16 09:42 |
fewa | http://www.playonlinux.com/en/ | Sep 16 09:42 |
fewa | WoW even gets better framerates in Linux | Sep 16 09:42 |
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fewa | o whoops I found that article it wasnt posted http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1532852/microsoft-bribes-best-buy-staff-slam-mac-linux | Sep 16 09:44 |
zeropath | hi all. Got a 'special' question ? Does anybody have pointers how a firm can end it's MS Enterprise Agreement prematurely ? | Sep 16 09:45 |
ThistleWeb | zeropath: contact their lawyers | Sep 16 09:46 |
ThistleWeb | preferably contract lawyers | Sep 16 09:47 |
zeropath | hm, guessed as much. There's a 'liberate' movement at IBM, but I don't think that would be a solution. | Sep 16 09:48 |
ThistleWeb | any agreement is breakable, the question is how bad the penalty will be for doing it | Sep 16 09:48 |
ThistleWeb | what you dont want to do is just decide it does not apply, MS will hammer you in court for that | Sep 16 09:48 |
zeropath | Since I ask this question on behalf of a friend and I can't see the actual contracts it is also a bit difficult for me. | Sep 16 09:48 |
ThistleWeb | MS do like NDAs | Sep 16 09:49 |
ThistleWeb | they're not the only ones, but they do like them | Sep 16 09:49 |
zeropath | In this case, I believe my friend is having problems with MS Support, but I'll try to find a good contract lawyer for his firm. | Sep 16 09:50 |
ThistleWeb | any specialist lawyer will cost money | Sep 16 09:50 |
fewa | NDAs can be violations of free speech | Sep 16 09:50 |
ThistleWeb | but the advice will probs save money by avoiding mistakes down the line | Sep 16 09:50 |
ThistleWeb | if both parties agree to it, and NDA is fine, not that we'd sign one | Sep 16 09:51 |
zeropath | Can someone make you sign an NDA about open source projects like e.g. unison. Just wondering, because I find myself under such an NDA. | Sep 16 09:52 |
ThistleWeb | I saw something recently to the effect that NDA's may not be legally enforcable | Sep 16 09:52 |
ThistleWeb | nobody can make you sign an NDA | Sep 16 09:52 |
ThistleWeb | what they can do is say they wont deal with you without one | Sep 16 09:52 |
zeropath | Either that or no job. | Sep 16 09:52 |
fewa | I don't think they should be | Sep 16 09:52 |
fewa | loss of transparancy cant benifit anyone but concentrated existing influences | Sep 16 09:53 |
ThistleWeb | then the choice is still yours, if you want the job, you accept the conditions | Sep 16 09:53 |
fewa | they can fire you | Sep 16 09:53 |
ThistleWeb | if they want you badly enough, you can set the terms | Sep 16 09:53 |
ThistleWeb | but most peeps are not in that position | Sep 16 09:53 |
fewa | but I don't think they can apply a prior restraint on free speech | Sep 16 09:53 |
zeropath | Asked my question the wrong way: how can you ask for an NDA on a GPL covered and publicly available piece of open source software | Sep 16 09:54 |
ThistleWeb | every country is different too in which laws apply, and how they apply | Sep 16 09:54 |
zeropath | which is literally the case | Sep 16 09:54 |
fewa | every jurisdiction | Sep 16 09:54 |
fewa | yet US companies like to think US law applies everywhere.... | Sep 16 09:55 |
fewa | sending all sorts of DMCA takedown notices to foreign sites | Sep 16 09:55 |
ThistleWeb | why would you want an NDA on something the public can get free from a website?? | Sep 16 09:55 |
ThistleWeb | that seems bizarre to me, unless I'm not understanding it | Sep 16 09:56 |
zeropath | exactly my point, so after two months of seeing the GPL being violated I quit. I'd had enough of these guys | Sep 16 09:56 |
ThistleWeb | NDA's tend to be for proprietary secrets | Sep 16 09:56 |
zeropath | cashing in on open source | Sep 16 09:56 |
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ThistleWeb | so tip the SFLC off | Sep 16 09:56 |
zeropath | SFLC ? | Sep 16 09:56 |
ThistleWeb | software freedom law centre | Sep 16 09:57 |
ThistleWeb | they are lawyers working on behalf of FOSS | Sep 16 09:57 |
ThistleWeb | and FOSS projects | Sep 16 09:57 |
zeropath | coming back to my friends problem, the Enterprise Agreement. what happens if he doesn't pay ? | Sep 16 09:57 |
ThistleWeb | they deal with GPL compliance issues | Sep 16 09:57 |
fewa | they sue for breech of contract | Sep 16 09:57 |
ThistleWeb | yep, I sense a lawsuit in his future if he follows that path | Sep 16 09:58 |
fewa | geeze, who would want to rent software | Sep 16 09:58 |
fewa | it just seems so idiotic | Sep 16 09:58 |
zeropath | whatever he does he'll have to pay | Sep 16 09:58 |
fewa | you sign up for a timbbomb on your entire operation | Sep 16 09:58 |
zeropath | he didn't know better at the time | Sep 16 09:58 |
fewa | zeropath, not neccicarily | Sep 16 09:59 |
ThistleWeb | it may be cheaper to buy out the contract | Sep 16 09:59 |
ThistleWeb | on the other hand it may be cheaper to just let it expire and not renew it | Sep 16 09:59 |
zeropath | he's in his first of three years | Sep 16 09:59 |
ThistleWeb | the safest answer would be "none of us are lawyers, none of the advice we give is legal advice" | Sep 16 10:00 |
ThistleWeb | I'd suggest that he lets a lawyer look over it, and get professional advice | Sep 16 10:00 |
fewa | Thats one of the biggest restraints on free speech | Sep 16 10:00 |
zeropath | I see, I'll get him to contact a good lawyer | Sep 16 10:00 |
fewa | that you cant talk about law without risk of being sued for preactice of law | Sep 16 10:00 |
ThistleWeb | contact the SFLC too | Sep 16 10:01 |
fewa | well, not biggest | Sep 16 10:01 |
ThistleWeb | let them know about the GPL issues | Sep 16 10:01 |
ThistleWeb | sometimes peeps dont know theyre not complying | Sep 16 10:01 |
ThistleWeb | or how to comply | Sep 16 10:01 |
ThistleWeb | sometimes they think it's not enforcable | Sep 16 10:01 |
ThistleWeb | as soon as they get contacted by a lawyer with a potential lawsuit to face, and the offer of help in complying it can wake them up | Sep 16 10:02 |
zeropath | thanks for the information. see you all - have to go now. | Sep 16 10:02 |
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schestowitz | Master Gene That Switches On Disease-fighting Cells Identified By Scientists http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090913134034.htm | Sep 16 10:09 |
schestowitz | Another poor victim of Microsoft's AstroTurf for Vista 7 (he didn't even try it for self): Ubuntu Linux - 5 things to stem the tide of Windows 7. < http://sinaisix.blogspot.com/2009/09/ubuntu-linux-5-things-to-stem-tide-of.html > | Sep 16 10:09 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Just installed Mint 7 XFCE, still tweaking it. | Sep 16 10:13 | |
fewa | schestowitz, lawl | Sep 16 10:20 |
fewa | that guy is drinking the cool aid | Sep 16 10:20 |
schestowitz | Yeah. | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | It annoys me | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | They don't try it | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | They DON'T understand that agencies do PR | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | Microsoft pays the likes of W-E like $200,000,000 for a simple job | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | Scour the Web, attack critics, approach journos for sale, bribe with laptops, etc | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | IT WAS THE SAME WITH VISTA | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | I know what friends of mine who tried VIsta 7 say | Sep 16 10:21 |
schestowitz | If it installed at all !! | Sep 16 10:22 |
schestowitz | Party line: "VIsta 7 will KILL KILL KILL Linux" | Sep 16 10:22 |
schestowitz | "Oh Lordy!! Will poor Linux survive?" | Sep 16 10:22 |
schestowitz | Another one does the whole "better Snot[sic] Leopard than Leopard" | Sep 16 10:22 |
schestowitz | I'm bloody tried of PR | Sep 16 10:22 |
schestowitz | They should be sent to an island or somehting | Sep 16 10:23 |
MinceR | why pollute an island with them? | Sep 16 10:23 |
fewa | the real question is "Does Vista 7 have any features that users care about?" | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | PR in action: | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/15/wendell-potter-public-opt_n_287733.html | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0909/27155.html | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | KILLING PEOPLE | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | Yes, PR kills! | Sep 16 10:23 |
schestowitz | http://www.prwatch.org/node/8555 | Sep 16 10:24 |
schestowitz | http://www.prwatch.org/node/8554 | Sep 16 10:24 |
fewa | or even more pertinent is "Does Vista 7 have more anti-features than prevent people from getting anything done?" | Sep 16 10:24 |
schestowitz | Kill kill... it pays the bill for PR people | Sep 16 10:24 |
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schestowitz | fewa: it runs XP | Sep 16 10:24 |
schestowitz | I mean, if you have lots of RAM | Sep 16 10:24 |
fewa | exactly | Sep 16 10:24 |
fewa | thats is the real news story | Sep 16 10:24 |
schestowitz | So it's like Vista without the compat issue, ASSUMING YOU CAN RUN BOTH IN RAM | Sep 16 10:24 |
schestowitz | AND EVEN THEN... | Sep 16 10:25 |
schestowitz | No 3d accel | Sep 16 10:25 |
fewa | "Vista 7 provides less functionality and no useful features over Windows XP" | Sep 16 10:25 |
schestowitz | Not on many chipsets | Sep 16 10:25 |
schestowitz | fewa: yes, the real story | Sep 16 10:25 |
schestowitz | Good luck paying off with hundreds of millions to put it in newspapers | Sep 16 10:25 |
fewa | occasionally you see it | Sep 16 10:25 |
fewa | business that get it | Sep 16 10:25 |
schestowitz | The journalists themselves are cynical about the press | Sep 16 10:25 |
fewa | go WTF Microsoft | Sep 16 10:26 |
fewa | even MS's good friend Intel said that of MS's business strategy | Sep 16 10:26 |
schestowitz | When you see it the writers/CIOs are abused | Sep 16 10:26 |
schestowitz | Outset, ridiculed, trolled in comments, approached by complaints to editords | Sep 16 10:26 |
fewa | Insurance Industry Profit Protection and Enhancement Act | Sep 16 10:26 |
fewa | exactly | Sep 16 10:26 |
fewa | without a public option there is no cost retainment | Sep 16 10:27 |
fewa | quit PR cause he realized human misery was funding his lifestyle | Sep 16 10:27 |
fewa | http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/16/former_insurance_exec_wendell_porter | Sep 16 10:28 |
ThistleWeb | I gotta say, Mint 7 XFCE is gorgeous | Sep 16 10:31 |
fewa | schestowitz, wow that is a great testimony | Sep 16 10:36 |
fewa | lots of stuff I had no idea about | Sep 16 10:36 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How to Set #Windows Users Free with #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/1aOmsP | Sep 16 10:39 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft et al Prevent #GNU #Linux Users from Watching TV http://www.obsidianprofile.com/blog/entry/1252905702 | Sep 16 10:41 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Research: #Server Virtualisation with #GNU #Linux Better Than with #Windows http://bit.ly/7RhsN | Sep 16 10:44 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @schestowitz: Clear the webs of confusion for Windows to Linux refugees | Sep 16 10:45 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Cisco Uses #Linux in #Routers for Business http://bit.ly/Aga6m | Sep 16 10:47 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxCon is Coming Soon, #Streaming Available http://bit.ly/jIvLs | Sep 16 10:52 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #FileSystem Throughput #Benchmarks http://bit.ly/ITXu7 | Sep 16 10:55 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Updated Chart of Distribution of Commits to #Linux http://bit.ly/raDID | Sep 16 10:57 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Environment Starts Quarterly Reports http://bit.ly/ZMXm | Sep 16 11:03 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More of #KDE Family Goes #GPLv3 , #KOffice 2.1 Now at Beta 2 http://bit.ly/Au6IA | Sep 16 11:05 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Archos Looks Stunning with New #Linux Platform http://bit.ly/mGacO http://bit.ly/gzOZI | Sep 16 11:11 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #EyeCandy Arriving at Ubuntu #GNU #Linux http://www.nillabyte.com/blog.php?b=239 http://bit.ly/5INlH http://bit.ly/2DctfP http://b ... | Sep 16 11:13 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Linux Stacks Address Needs in #Medicine http://bit.ly/qrzvW | Sep 16 11:15 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ruby Development Comes to #Linux Phones http://ping.fm/BQhKC | Sep 16 11:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MySpace ( #Murdochism ) Dabbles in #FreeSoftware http://ping.fm/hiD79 | Sep 16 11:20 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google Chrome 3.0 is Out ( #Linux Version Out Any Moment) http://ping.fm/CN2ZJ http://ping.fm/MoE9t | Sep 16 11:21 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSF / #GNU Announces 2009 #FreeSoftware Awards http://ping.fm/6pwEt | Sep 16 11:23 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GPL Declares Free #SoftwareWinner in #Licensing http://ping.fm/XdoJz | Sep 16 11:24 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WalterBender Backs #FSF ? http://ping.fm/kkJnl | Sep 16 11:24 | |
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 16 11:28 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LegalisedBribery ( #Lobbying ) Attempts to Shoot Down #Federal #Regulator http://ping.fm/TfW4D | Sep 16 11:29 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Health 'Care' #AstroTurf Steals the Vote http://ping.fm/o3WmI http://ping.fm/K4Etp http://ping.fm/Dus7X http://ping.fm/M2IYw http://pi ... | Sep 16 11:29 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Selling the #Diebold #ProprietaryFailure Leads to #Antitrust http://ping.fm/Mk2zA | Sep 16 11:30 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Government of #India Can Save Billions by Moving to #FreeSoftware -- Claim http://ping.fm/DfoIy | Sep 16 11:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #UK is Trying to Quietly #DRM #Television http://ping.fm/6JHy2 http://ping.fm/KpY1l | Sep 16 11:36 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FCC Enables Ballot Stuffers http://ping.fm/PiFL9 | Sep 16 11:37 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Members Attack #Musicians Who 'Dare' Speak Against #IntellectualMonopolies Enablers http://ping.fm/IB9NL | Sep 16 11:39 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Hollywood invades #France http://ping.fm/6Bhsq | Sep 16 11:39 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The People Who Really Run the US Want to Toughen #IntellectualMonopolies http://ping.fm/Svg1N | Sep 16 11:41 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Patent Trolls in the 21st Century, or ProxyTrolls, the patent mafia or do the dirt job by others: http://opensource.org/node/465 | Sep 16 11:43 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Google 's #Patry Attacks Attacks Existing #Copyright #Law in New #Book http://ping.fm/FHlTv | Sep 16 11:45 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tiemann about swpats: "it is more urgent than ever to mount a serious campaign to disarm them all, before it is too late" http://i5.be/Ju | Sep 16 11:46 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #IntellectualMonopolies Must be Forbidden for Publicly Funded Work http://ping.fm/uamJX | Sep 16 11:46 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Japan 's #MAFIAA Wants #DRM in Phones, #Canada Wants to #Tax All Music Player http://ping.fm/PKLS8 http://ping.fm/mY7C6 | Sep 16 11:48 | |
fewa | schestowitz, when you say #Japan 's #MAFIAA I think you are talking about the actually mafia there :P | Sep 16 11:49 |
MinceR | that would be "mafia", not "MAFIAA" | Sep 16 11:52 |
fewa | I know... | Sep 16 11:53 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Starts #Fudging Its #Financial Results to Hide Massive Drops http://ping.fm/FC9Af http://ping.fm/EWvUy /5208-12558-0.html?fo ... | Sep 16 11:54 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Left Dead on Arrival as Even #Hardware 'Feature' Fails http://ping.fm/lM33E | Sep 16 11:56 | |
schestowitz | OK done | Sep 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | Where were we, fewa/ :-) | Sep 16 11:56 |
schestowitz | [10:36] <fewa> schestowitz, wow that is a great testimony | Sep 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | Yes, she came from the inside | Sep 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | There are similar stories like that | Sep 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | Reformed arsehole (or their collaborators) | Sep 16 11:57 |
schestowitz | There are also people who worked for Microsoft and now work against the Beast | Sep 16 11:57 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz your second short URL is broken - try http://is.gd/3kSQq | Sep 16 11:58 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Judge forces jury to sign a document that they will not research the case online http://ur1.ca/bsco | Sep 16 11:58 | |
fewa | I knew of that guy | Sep 16 11:58 |
fewa | watched a interview on democracynow and a article on prwatch | Sep 16 11:58 |
fewa | but that testimony was ripe will good stuff | Sep 16 11:58 |
fewa | Isn't the jury suppose to be an independant body? | Sep 16 11:59 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard try http://bit.ly/gTOD1 | Sep 16 12:00 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard second link: http://bit.ly/2G8ufk | Sep 16 12:01 | |
schestowitz | fewa: depends on the case | Sep 16 12:18 |
ThistleWeb | a jury is only supposed to decide on what they hear in court | Sep 16 12:25 |
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trmanco | [PATCH v4 00/15] Build Git with MSVC | Sep 16 12:27 |
trmanco | LOL | Sep 16 12:27 |
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trmanco | git is going native to win32 | Sep 16 12:27 |
oiaohm | Kinda has to. | Sep 16 12:28 |
oiaohm | It one thing that has been limiting its take up by some projects. | Sep 16 12:28 |
fewa | Windows is one thing that is limiting the uptake of quality software | Sep 16 12:31 |
trmanco | both true | Sep 16 12:31 |
trmanco | git works fine in cygwin | Sep 16 12:32 |
PetoKraus | oh by the way... http://www.geeksonbikes.net | Sep 16 12:34 |
trmanco | :D | Sep 16 12:35 |
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PetoKraus | i've just got a nice PC | Sep 16 12:36 |
MinceR | windows is the biggest obstacle in the way of advancement in IT | Sep 16 12:36 |
PetoKraus | it's HP, an old one | Sep 16 12:36 |
PetoKraus | some laptop, business class, Pentium M | Sep 16 12:37 |
PetoKraus | well, installed arch linux, LXDE | Sep 16 12:37 |
PetoKraus | and it's smashin' | Sep 16 12:37 |
oiaohm | We will most likely remember the time of Windows as a IT dark ages. | Sep 16 12:37 |
PetoKraus | well | Sep 16 12:37 |
PetoKraus | that's why I'm trying to get some money off it | Sep 16 12:37 |
PetoKraus | ;) | Sep 16 12:37 |
fewa | Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free | Sep 16 12:39 |
fewa | Give me your tired, your poor, | Sep 16 12:39 |
fewa | Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, | Sep 16 12:39 |
fewa | The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. | Sep 16 12:39 |
oiaohm | KDE is also coming to Windows. | Sep 16 12:39 |
fewa | Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, | Sep 16 12:39 |
fewa | I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" | Sep 16 12:39 |
oiaohm | I know that windows 7 is forcing some people I know to Linux. | Sep 16 12:40 |
oiaohm | It is getting simpler to find Linux users. | Sep 16 12:40 |
PetoKraus | fewa, quoth the raven - nevermore! | Sep 16 12:40 |
fewa | PetoKraus, :P | Sep 16 12:40 |
PetoKraus | anyway | Sep 16 12:41 |
PetoKraus | time to shoot to the gym, so i'm not going to be a wimp ;) | Sep 16 12:41 |
PetoKraus | oh what i wanted to say | Sep 16 12:43 |
PetoKraus | is | Sep 16 12:43 |
PetoKraus | KMS is awesome | Sep 16 12:43 |
fewa | KMS? | Sep 16 12:43 |
PetoKraus | kernel modesetting | Sep 16 12:43 |
oiaohm | I am looking forward to the higher uptake of policykit as well | Sep 16 12:43 |
PetoKraus | i dunno | Sep 16 12:43 |
PetoKraus | i see nothing but trouble with it | Sep 16 12:43 |
oiaohm | We have trouble either way. | Sep 16 12:45 |
oiaohm | Users not liking secuirty getting in way. | Sep 16 12:45 |
oiaohm | Policykit can solve that | Sep 16 12:45 |
oiaohm | Of course there is a risk it can make it too friendly to do things wrong. | Sep 16 12:46 |
fewa | I think PolicyKit is good | Sep 16 12:47 |
fewa | initially it had a stupid bug however where even if you were root you would get permission denied stuff | Sep 16 12:47 |
oiaohm | Idea of Policykit is one day root user will never be required. | Sep 16 12:48 |
fewa | but it should still exist | Sep 16 12:49 |
fewa | and be accessable | Sep 16 12:49 |
oiaohm | Not really thinking it don't really exist now. | Sep 16 12:49 |
fewa | oiaohm, when processes are elevated, they run as root | Sep 16 12:49 |
oiaohm | Linux kernel can be built without an operational root. | Sep 16 12:49 |
fewa | you can streamline stuff so that less elevation is needed | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | that is good | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | but a elevated level is always needed | Sep 16 12:50 |
oiaohm | All the root user is the following user with id 0 and a set of extra capiblitity flags that could be granted to all users. | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | otherwise you cant control the machine, it controls you | Sep 16 12:50 |
oiaohm | Basically root does not exist. | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | root=all capabilities | Sep 16 12:50 |
oiaohm | You can lie to applications that they are id 0. | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | thats how people think of it | Sep 16 12:50 |
fewa | I understand the realities are more complicated | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | but there needs to be a mode where all is allowed | Sep 16 12:51 |
oiaohm | all capabilities could be granted to any user or any process without the existance of a root login. | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | however it should be used as little as possible | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | oiaohm, that that user becomes root | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | root could be defined as the way of setting those capabilities | Sep 16 12:51 |
oiaohm | Not really. | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | essentially | Sep 16 12:51 |
oiaohm | It could be assigned to applications user is using. | Sep 16 12:51 |
fewa | semantics | Sep 16 12:52 |
oiaohm | so its not complete. | Sep 16 12:52 |
fewa | the user is the application | Sep 16 12:52 |
fewa | there is no way to tell them apart | Sep 16 12:52 |
oiaohm | When it comes to threat having applications auth slows down threats. | Sep 16 12:52 |
fewa | bash is both a user interface and a scripting language | Sep 16 12:52 |
fewa | etc | Sep 16 12:52 |
fewa | Im not disagreeing with you | Sep 16 12:53 |
oiaohm | Compared to auth users. | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | carefully grained security is useful | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | only giving those capabilities that are needed | Sep 16 12:53 |
oiaohm | There is no particular need for root user it too course. | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | very useful | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | fine grain control over permissions | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | useful again | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | but there is _allways_ a status were someone have unlimited capabilities | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | and that should not be obscured | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | and fakes | Sep 16 12:53 |
fewa | like it is on other systems | Sep 16 12:54 |
fewa | like the lie of Vista 7 UAC | Sep 16 12:54 |
oiaohm | As long as a normal user can lift applications on need or allow application to use something like policykit for high access. There is no limitations. | Sep 16 12:54 |
oiaohm | Policykit is far tidyer than UAC. | Sep 16 12:54 |
fewa | Yes it is | Sep 16 12:54 |
fewa | its good | Sep 16 12:54 |
fewa | im not arguing against that | Sep 16 12:54 |
oiaohm | Root user go by by. | Sep 16 12:54 |
oiaohm | Replaced by finer controls and policy kit. | Sep 16 12:54 |
fewa | Im just making clear that a root user with unlimited permissions is always neccicary and should not be obscured | Sep 16 12:55 |
oiaohm | Its not really required. | Sep 16 12:55 |
fewa | yes it it | Sep 16 12:55 |
fewa | what if you want to change the system? | Sep 16 12:55 |
fewa | if you let every user change the system then it is not secure | Sep 16 12:55 |
oiaohm | Applications able to get root equal powers yes. | Sep 16 12:56 |
fewa | so you have to give that to only a few users | Sep 16 12:56 |
fewa | and those users are root | Sep 16 12:56 |
oiaohm | a root user no. | Sep 16 12:56 |
fewa | oiaohm, you don't get it | Sep 16 12:56 |
fewa | everything in a computer is a API | Sep 16 12:56 |
oiaohm | There is only a need for a root user if applications cannot get powers high enough. | Sep 16 12:56 |
fewa | the API need to allow users to get shit done | Sep 16 12:56 |
oiaohm | Auth applications massively reduce threat area. | Sep 16 12:57 |
fewa | while administrators should carefully control threats and limit surface area, etc, they need to be able to always get aroud artificial access controls easily | Sep 16 12:57 |
oiaohm | That is what you are missing. When running as root user decides to look up a web page with a bad browser bad things happen. | Sep 16 12:57 |
oiaohm | Ie human error. | Sep 16 12:57 |
fewa | instead of having to do a bunch of bullshit to get around them | Sep 16 12:57 |
oiaohm | auth applications that kind of human error don't happen. | Sep 16 12:57 |
fewa | oiaohm, this is obvious | Sep 16 12:57 |
fewa | you should never use root for something that doesn't need it | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | that is obvious | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | but you have to teach administrators that | Sep 16 12:58 |
oiaohm | Problem with having a root user the obvious does not get followed. | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | not break the API to try to enforce something which is unenforcable | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | oiaohm, you cant regulate through open source software | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | its impossible | Sep 16 12:58 |
fewa | so don't try | Sep 16 12:59 |
oiaohm | Its not impossible. | Sep 16 12:59 |
fewa | you can give advice | Sep 16 12:59 |
fewa | you can set up policykit really well | Sep 16 12:59 |
oiaohm | what decided the secuirty of the system. | Sep 16 12:59 |
fewa | have very good seperation of power | Sep 16 12:59 |
oiaohm | The kernel. | Sep 16 12:59 |
fewa | but there always needs to be an API where the admistratorr can get control---- applications should never expect to get it-- why would users give that trust to programs that dont need it? | Sep 16 13:00 |
oiaohm | There are some sections still like input handling in X11 that are major headaches to control. | Sep 16 13:00 |
fewa | and badly written applications should not be written | Sep 16 13:00 |
fewa | but _the API_ needs to allow it | Sep 16 13:00 |
fewa | needs to allow the administrator a non-bullshit way of becoming elevated | Sep 16 13:00 |
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oiaohm | capibilities were created in the first place so you did not need all powerful users. | Sep 16 13:00 |
oiaohm | To do stuff. | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | otherwise people just start fighting security | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | oiaohm, YOU DONT NEED PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY USE THE ACCOUNTS | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | you don't need to be able to log into them on most machines | Sep 16 13:01 |
oiaohm | So since people don't need to use the accounts you don't need the accounts. | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | im just saying that the API should not be corrupted | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | and it be made impossible to easily administer a system how you want to | Sep 16 13:01 |
fewa | Administrators need to be able to get to that level easy | Sep 16 13:02 |
fewa | just like sudo -i in ubuntu | Sep 16 13:02 |
fewa | but programs included in the distribution should avoid using it | Sep 16 13:02 |
fewa | the system should be designed not to need it | Sep 16 13:02 |
oiaohm | What is the biggest problem with running as root user. | Sep 16 13:02 |
oiaohm | your alterations don't get logged. | Sep 16 13:02 |
oiaohm | So you make a mistake its harder to correct. | Sep 16 13:03 |
oiaohm | root user is even harmful to administrators. | Sep 16 13:03 |
oiaohm | Current form of root user need to go by by. | Sep 16 13:04 |
fewa | Yes, yes, yes | Sep 16 13:04 |
fewa | but don't outlaw it | Sep 16 13:04 |
oiaohm | Replaced by something that is safer all round. | Sep 16 13:04 |
fewa | that it counterproductive | Sep 16 13:04 |
oiaohm | Why keep something that is counter productive that causes down time. | Sep 16 13:04 |
fewa | It is the arrogent assumption that only kernel developers can make a secure system and are allowed to write all-priviliaged code | Sep 16 13:05 |
fewa | because the administrators are the master | Sep 16 13:05 |
fewa | *masters | Sep 16 13:05 |
fewa | not the programmers | Sep 16 13:05 |
oiaohm | Yet as windows your administator is not the most powerful user either. | Sep 16 13:05 |
oiaohm | There is a user above it you cannot log into. | Sep 16 13:05 |
fewa | the programmers make the administrators life good | Sep 16 13:05 |
MinceR | SYSTEM? :) | Sep 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | Normally. | Sep 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | SYSTEM can delete files in use. | Sep 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | Normal admin cannot. | Sep 16 13:06 |
fewa | i'm saying real administrator, the person with physical and legal control over a device | Sep 16 13:06 |
MinceR | ooh | Sep 16 13:06 |
MinceR | what happens to programs using those files? | Sep 16 13:06 |
fewa | is the person that needs to always be in control | Sep 16 13:06 |
MinceR | (considering how hard windows file systems fail) | Sep 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | Not nice to say the least MinceR. | Sep 16 13:06 |
MinceR | :D | Sep 16 13:06 |
fewa | and the tools created by the programmers need to empower them do get shit done | Sep 16 13:06 |
fewa | (as they are often the same people too) | Sep 16 13:06 |
oiaohm | fewa: yes a person need to be in control. | Sep 16 13:07 |
oiaohm | But person also need to be able to undo there human error. | Sep 16 13:07 |
fewa | and it should not be only the initial programmers | Sep 16 13:07 |
oiaohm | Unless you expect all admins to be perfect some how. | Sep 16 13:07 |
fewa | the programmers need to allow the hardware administrator to easily obtain the credentials and permission he already has due to owning the computer | Sep 16 13:07 |
oiaohm | Logging and tracking of alterations is also required. | Sep 16 13:08 |
oiaohm | Current root user is also bad when you have multi admins. | Sep 16 13:08 |
fewa | oiaohm, yes the system should make this easy, it should really help the administrator, it should make root completely unneccicary and never used | Sep 16 13:08 |
oiaohm | due to the fact all there alterations cannot be sorted. | Sep 16 13:08 |
fewa | it should not allow loggging on as root by default | Sep 16 13:08 |
oiaohm | Root user should not be there at all in my mind. | Sep 16 13:08 |
oiaohm | Any user give right to do root level alterations should be able to. | Sep 16 13:09 |
fewa | but the designers of the systems should _never_ pretend that they are the administrators of every system that uses their software | Sep 16 13:09 |
oiaohm | Logged and reversable. | Sep 16 13:09 |
fewa | ^^^^^^super critical | Sep 16 13:09 |
oiaohm | To prevent human screw ups. | Sep 16 13:09 |
fewa | yes that could be an option | Sep 16 13:09 |
fewa | and be easily configurable or default | Sep 16 13:09 |
oiaohm | Current root user does not allow for that. And it the way it has to go. | Sep 16 13:10 |
fewa | but controlers of the hardware and legal owners should always be able to do whatever the fuck they want | Sep 16 13:10 |
oiaohm | So kill current root user and replace it with something better. | Sep 16 13:10 |
fewa | and the software should be made to easily allow them to do it | Sep 16 13:10 |
fewa | you dont have to kill root to create better alternatives | Sep 16 13:10 |
oiaohm | If you don't kill it users will still log in as it and by pass the logging. | Sep 16 13:10 |
fewa | anyways, it seems that you are not taking the point, you have a view that the programmer administers the system | Sep 16 13:11 |
oiaohm | Basically it cannot stay in its current form. | Sep 16 13:11 |
fewa | oiaohm, what do you do again? | Sep 16 13:12 |
oiaohm | Root user was a old hack to Unix to avoid having to create a user management system. | Sep 16 13:12 |
fewa | ? | Sep 16 13:12 |
oiaohm | As with all hacks it should disappear when the correct solutions appear. | Sep 16 13:12 |
oiaohm | Yes Root user was a hack fewa | Sep 16 13:12 |
fewa | root is the default | Sep 16 13:12 |
oiaohm | ID 0 was in the old UNIX as magic override to everything. | Sep 16 13:13 |
fewa | until you build security into a system everyone is root | Sep 16 13:13 |
fewa | thats what Windows is | Sep 16 13:13 |
fewa | except it pretends it is not | Sep 16 13:13 |
oiaohm | User secuirty sux's. | Sep 16 13:13 |
fewa | exactly, it is non-existant | Sep 16 13:13 |
fewa | therefore everyone is effectively root | Sep 16 13:13 |
oiaohm | application secuirty is fine grained. | Sep 16 13:14 |
oiaohm | Ie only approved stuff gets rights. | Sep 16 13:14 |
fewa | oiaohm, I think you need reevaluate you understanding of security | Sep 16 13:14 |
oiaohm | The problem with vista is they tried doing both. | Sep 16 13:14 |
oiaohm | UAC giving approved and they left SYSTEM in back ground. | Sep 16 13:14 |
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oiaohm | So coders just added services so users would not be asked questions. | Sep 16 13:15 |
oiaohm | While you have a all powerful user there its abuseable. | Sep 16 13:15 |
oiaohm | Ie policykit and a root user can never work perfectly. | Sep 16 13:16 |
oiaohm | At some point you have to throw away the assist of root user. | Sep 16 13:16 |
oiaohm | So the new system will get used correctly without people bipassing it. | Sep 16 13:17 |
oiaohm | You have the idea there is a half way point that will work fewa | Sep 16 13:17 |
fewa | In the US Department of Defense, a `trusted system or component' is defined as `one which can break the security policy'. | Sep 16 13:17 |
fewa | understand that and you might understand what I am saying | Sep 16 13:17 |
fewa | You are think emperically about something which is dynamic | Sep 16 13:18 |
oiaohm | Trusted system or component does not need a user to be so. | Sep 16 13:18 |
fewa | it a critical and fatal flaw in what you are trying to say | Sep 16 13:18 |
oiaohm | also trusted system or component does not have to be free of secuirty. | Sep 16 13:19 |
fewa | asserting that the kernel is the only thing that can determine security--but based on what??? | Sep 16 13:19 |
fewa | oiaohm, of course it is defined as `one which can break the security policy'. | Sep 16 13:20 |
oiaohm | The kernel is a single point. All secuirty must start from a single point. | Sep 16 13:20 |
oiaohm | The kernel does define the core of all secuirty models made above it. | Sep 16 13:20 |
fewa | anyways you are not going to understand my point as long as I go on like this.... | Sep 16 13:20 |
fewa | the computer is the slave | Sep 16 13:21 |
fewa | it serves its owners, its masters | Sep 16 13:21 |
fewa | does useful things | Sep 16 13:21 |
oiaohm | A slave can save there master from there own stupidity. | Sep 16 13:21 |
fewa | you are making the computer the thing with the soul | Sep 16 13:21 |
fewa | giving it reason where it has none | Sep 16 13:21 |
oiaohm | No I am not. | Sep 16 13:21 |
fewa | oiaohm, but a slave cannot tell the master what to do | Sep 16 13:22 |
fewa | thats the problem | Sep 16 13:22 |
fewa | a slave must get out of the way ever if the master wishes to bury his head in the sand | Sep 16 13:22 |
oiaohm | Bad logic. | Sep 16 13:22 |
fewa | cause every if the slave object the master will do it anyways | Sep 16 13:22 |
fewa | don't assert power where none exists | Sep 16 13:23 |
oiaohm | Lets say master tells slave to dump a object. | Sep 16 13:23 |
fewa | its futile and arrogent | Sep 16 13:23 |
oiaohm | slave knows master may need it. | Sep 16 13:23 |
oiaohm | So keeps it. | Sep 16 13:23 |
oiaohm | When master has problem that needs it master is saved from problem by slave. | Sep 16 13:23 |
oiaohm | This is not blocking the masters will. | Sep 16 13:23 |
fewa | getting rid of root would be like getting rid of the ability to dynamically load kernel modules | Sep 16 13:23 |
fewa | its would be idiotic | Sep 16 13:24 |
oiaohm | thinkign that root is only a virtual contrust any how. | Sep 16 13:24 |
fewa | sure not every unpriviliaged user should be able to do it | Sep 16 13:24 |
oiaohm | It don't really exist. | Sep 16 13:24 |
fewa | but to have the machine object to such a order is just nonsense | Sep 16 13:24 |
oiaohm | its nothing more than a historic echo of a time gone past. | Sep 16 13:24 |
fewa | oiaohm, I already adressses that | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | root=all powerful | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | doesn't matter what form it takes | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | I'm taking about a mode that has the priviliages to do anything, all capabilities | Sep 16 13:25 |
oiaohm | all powerful can exist without a root user. | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | such a mode must exist or the computer is just trying to tell the master what to do | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | oiaohm, well yeah, you can call it whatever you like | Sep 16 13:25 |
oiaohm | There is no need for the root user. | Sep 16 13:25 |
fewa | it doesn't have to ba analagous to a POSIX UID 0 | Sep 16 13:26 |
oiaohm | The user bit is just old junk. | Sep 16 13:26 |
fewa | but there must be a mode that is all powerful | Sep 16 13:26 |
fewa | You seem you throw that aside as something that doesn't count | Sep 16 13:26 |
oiaohm | run program with all credentionals connected it is all powerful. | Sep 16 13:26 |
fewa | not seeing how important such a mode is | Sep 16 13:26 |
fewa | oiaohm, and that is essentially root | Sep 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | You don't see the down side of it being a user. | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | maybe i should call it "god" or something | Sep 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | Ie too simple to run something with all power by mistake. | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | computers need a "god" mode | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | and that god mode needs to be simple and straight forward | Sep 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | But the god mode does not have to be a user. | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | security through obscurity does not work | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | oiaohm, agreed | Sep 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | I am refering to root user. | Sep 16 13:27 |
fewa | but it needs to be easily accessable | Sep 16 13:27 |
oiaohm | as what has to go. | Sep 16 13:28 |
fewa | oiaohm, well then ok | Sep 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | policy kit or something else pick up the job. | Sep 16 13:28 |
fewa | just don't obscure the interface to become "god" or your own machines | Sep 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | Reducing human error. | Sep 16 13:28 |
oiaohm | Of running stuff as all powerful by mistake. | Sep 16 13:28 |
fewa | don't try to instill security through obscurity as has been done _so_ many times | Sep 16 13:28 |
fewa | the thing that creates the Vista UAC securty theatre | Sep 16 13:29 |
oiaohm | Its not security thew obsecuirty. | Sep 16 13:29 |
oiaohm | UAC was always going to be a theatre. | Sep 16 13:29 |
fewa | where everyone is effectively god, but much good through endless loops to get there | Sep 16 13:29 |
oiaohm | There have been other plaforms that operated with secuirty without root users. | Sep 16 13:29 |
fewa | oiaohm, I am not saying PolicyKit is that | Sep 16 13:29 |
fewa | it certainly is not | Sep 16 13:29 |
oiaohm | Policykit can still provide the all powerful. | Sep 16 13:30 |
fewa | I'm just saying that it is a complament to a god mode, not a replacement | Sep 16 13:30 |
MinceR | isn't PolicyKit accessed via D-Bus? | Sep 16 13:30 |
fewa | It allows "god" to efficiently delineate permissions, that is highly useful | Sep 16 13:30 |
oiaohm | Policykit goes threw D-Bus. | Sep 16 13:30 |
MinceR | then it can't be a "god mode" substitute | Sep 16 13:30 |
MinceR | since you can't rely on D-Bus always being there | Sep 16 13:31 |
fewa | MinceR, exactly | Sep 16 13:31 |
fewa | that sort of thing is exactly my point | Sep 16 13:31 |
oiaohm | Again that is partly right and partly wrong. | Sep 16 13:31 |
fewa | The architects realize it | Sep 16 13:31 |
fewa | but I am just trying to make it clear | Sep 16 13:31 |
oiaohm | You are aware that long term D-Bus will most likely end up in kernel. | Sep 16 13:31 |
fewa | cause if those who are not central architects forget that then they create things like UAC | Sep 16 13:32 |
oiaohm | Safest place to try experments is userspace before moving them into kernel. | Sep 16 13:32 |
*fewa sighs that oiaohm still doesn't get it | Sep 16 13:32 | |
oiaohm | Policykit is just a new veration on role based secuirty. | Sep 16 13:33 |
fewa | well you have to load a kernel module just to get a god mode? | Sep 16 13:34 |
fewa | that it the type of insanity I am trying to preempt | Sep 16 13:34 |
oiaohm | LSM modules can already take god mode away. | Sep 16 13:34 |
fewa | But that is the user choice | Sep 16 13:35 |
fewa | that is good | Sep 16 13:35 |
oiaohm | Root user is more than virtual. | Sep 16 13:35 |
oiaohm | Root as application secuirty level could be done. | Sep 16 13:35 |
fewa | oiaohm, but root user can still change the LSM module settings | Sep 16 13:35 |
oiaohm | Not after LSM is loaded. | Sep 16 13:35 |
fewa | with a reboot, yes | Sep 16 13:35 |
oiaohm | Or if kernel was built without virtual user root | Sep 16 13:36 |
fewa | then its a closed kernel | Sep 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | No | Sep 16 13:36 |
fewa | to the POV of the user, yes | Sep 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | You still have creditionals that can be on applications. | Sep 16 13:36 |
fewa | it could be approiate for the applications | Sep 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | Allowing the god mode another way. | Sep 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | More controlled. | Sep 16 13:36 |
fewa | but then it immediately ceases to be a general purpose machine at the kernel level and above | Sep 16 13:36 |
oiaohm | No it does not. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | if the user cannot load kernel modules and turn off LSM | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | then yes | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | If application that loads modules is approved root user does not need to be. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | oiaohm, yes, i agree | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | Its a different design. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | but then the application that can load modules is in the "god mode" | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | Instead of root user you have approved applications. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | that application is god | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | Yep. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | if that application doesn't allow the user access to the machine | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | then the system is broken | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | And user cannot run an application as god by mistake. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | to the point of view of the user | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | and ceases to be a general purpose machine | Sep 16 13:38 |
oiaohm | In application based user can approve applications. | Sep 16 13:38 |
fewa | well now i see our differences | Sep 16 13:39 |
oiaohm | Applications don't automatically get rights. | Sep 16 13:39 |
oiaohm | Just because a user run it. | Sep 16 13:39 |
oiaohm | Ie less risk of human error. | Sep 16 13:39 |
fewa | you have a belief that the application is right, and that the user should not be able to override the application | Sep 16 13:39 |
MinceR | 143932 < oiaohm> Allowing the god mode another way. | Sep 16 13:39 |
MinceR | 143939 < oiaohm> More controlled. | Sep 16 13:39 |
MinceR | that's a contradiction in terms :> | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | that recompilation is the only way to change the system | Sep 16 13:40 |
oiaohm | No | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | reinstallation the only way to change permissions | Sep 16 13:40 |
oiaohm | root user god mode hands out rights like candy. | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | at the top level | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | of course | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | something must | Sep 16 13:40 |
fewa | the kernel does the same thing | Sep 16 13:40 |
oiaohm | Does it have to without checking with user. | Sep 16 13:41 |
oiaohm | Answer no. | Sep 16 13:41 |
fewa | and it is carefully engineered to not accidentally hand out rights that were not intended | Sep 16 13:41 |
fewa | I understand what you are saying | Sep 16 13:41 |
fewa | but you are completely missing my point | Sep 16 13:41 |
MinceR | well, optimally you'll only ever need "god mode" if the system is really screwed -- so you gain root via single-user mode or init=/bin/sh or a similar trick | Sep 16 13:41 |
oiaohm | Current root user is not engineered to prevent rights being handed out by mistakes. | Sep 16 13:41 |
fewa | you perspective is wrong | Sep 16 13:41 |
fewa | MinceR, yeah thats getting there | Sep 16 13:41 |
oiaohm | Application approval mode still does not mean you cannot get back into system. | Sep 16 13:42 |
fewa | MinceR, but in such a system you would have to reboot the computer and do that for and security bug, or to change permission structures | Sep 16 13:42 |
fewa | maybe that is needed, i do not know | Sep 16 13:42 |
fewa | *any | Sep 16 13:42 |
MinceR | you could be granted a capability to change permission structures as a user | Sep 16 13:43 |
fewa | but than that user is esstially a god | Sep 16 13:43 |
oiaohm | Ie if you have the permission to assign permissions to applications you don't need anything else. | Sep 16 13:43 |
fewa | unless he can only change certain predefined permissions | Sep 16 13:43 |
oiaohm | Because what is using the permissions anyhow. | Sep 16 13:43 |
fewa | MinceR, capabilities to change permission is exactly what root it | Sep 16 13:43 |
fewa | change file permissions, device permissions | Sep 16 13:43 |
fewa | can change the security API of the whole system really easily | Sep 16 13:44 |
fewa | its a powerful rol that should not be overused | Sep 16 13:44 |
MinceR | it could be safer to really only gain capabilities to change permissions directly | Sep 16 13:44 |
fewa | MinceR, how | Sep 16 13:44 |
fewa | you just change the permission so you are allowed | Sep 16 13:44 |
oiaohm | Does having only power to change permissions on applications give you means to do equal to root use. | Sep 16 13:44 |
fewa | and then use use that permission | Sep 16 13:44 |
MinceR | (so that a bug in your utility that changes them won't do something like write on the hdd randomly just because it can :> ) | Sep 16 13:44 |
fewa | its really simple | Sep 16 13:44 |
MinceR | fewa: the difference is when mistakes are made | Sep 16 13:45 |
fewa | MinceR, you can force that program to reboot, but that is an inconvinience, not a security feeature | Sep 16 13:45 |
MinceR | i don't want to force it to reboot, i want to deny it such requests | Sep 16 13:45 |
fewa | MinceR, yeah systems should be designed to help the administrator from making mistakes | Sep 16 13:45 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell ’s #Moonlight Becomes Less Relevant as #Silverlight Gets Dumped Again http://ping.fm/MdZ4Y | Sep 16 13:45 | |
fewa | not doing things that are unexpected, or could be destructive | Sep 16 13:45 |
oiaohm | Systems should not hand out permissions to applications like candy either fewa | Sep 16 13:45 |
MinceR | these are mostly programmer's mistakes, not admin's mistakes | Sep 16 13:46 |
fewa | their can be safegaurd like oiaohm sugggest ( and i think are great) to reverse things that administrators do | Sep 16 13:46 |
fewa | MinceR, there we go | Sep 16 13:46 |
fewa | MinceR, thats exactly my point | Sep 16 13:46 |
oiaohm | Mixture of both. | Sep 16 13:46 |
oiaohm | Really lot of programming mistakes are made worse by applications being run with more permissions then they really need. | Sep 16 13:47 |
fewa | there needs to be a god mode that the user can use, but the administrator needs to learn not to blindly trust programs to use it responsible | Sep 16 13:47 |
fewa | *responsibly | Sep 16 13:47 |
fewa | there should be great tools to deliniate those permissions | Sep 16 13:47 |
oiaohm | My god mode is application based where you have to give permissions to applications you want to have them. Not that it automatically just happens. | Sep 16 13:47 |
fewa | oiaohm, you still don't understand the differn't between the programmer and the administrator/user here | Sep 16 13:48 |
fewa | are are reversing their roles from reality | Sep 16 13:48 |
oiaohm | I am a administrator fewa | Sep 16 13:48 |
oiaohm | I know the errors I have done. | Sep 16 13:48 |
fewa | Your idea to stop errors are great | Sep 16 13:48 |
fewa | I really like them | Sep 16 13:48 |
fewa | PolicyKit can really help reduce them | Sep 16 13:49 |
oiaohm | I also have to clean up systems after errors. | Sep 16 13:49 |
fewa | transaction based decisions could also be very useful | Sep 16 13:49 |
oiaohm | I have got to hate user grant applications all power user has without question. | Sep 16 13:49 |
fewa | I'm just saying that the programs cannot hold the users hand against the users wishes | Sep 16 13:49 |
fewa | thats how Microsoft Windows works | Sep 16 13:49 |
fewa | ...or fails to wok | Sep 16 13:49 |
fewa | Linux needs better tools to help the administrator not screw up | Sep 16 13:50 |
oiaohm | Windows follows the line grant applications all rights the user has. | Sep 16 13:50 |
fewa | certainly | Sep 16 13:50 |
oiaohm | That is not a healthy thing. | Sep 16 13:50 |
fewa | oiaohm, but it also pretends to hold the user's and programmers hand | Sep 16 13:50 |
fewa | pretending that there is security | Sep 16 13:51 |
fewa | requiring that programmers think around a "security system" that doesn't work | Sep 16 13:51 |
fewa | this is the anethema | Sep 16 13:51 |
fewa | and needs to be avoided at all costs | Sep 16 13:51 |
oiaohm | Programmers can only think around secuirty system if they have something that bipasses it. | Sep 16 13:51 |
fewa | the school of hard knocks that traditional UNIX is is better than that | Sep 16 13:51 |
fewa | but Linux can improve on it by empowering Admistrators and applying rules of least suprise | Sep 16 13:52 |
fewa | I personally am _really_ excited about brtfs and COW filesystem | Sep 16 13:52 |
oiaohm | Current root user does not fall under least suprise. | Sep 16 13:52 |
fewa | will allow you to replay filesystem everys | Sep 16 13:52 |
oiaohm | Its too simple to give an application too much power with current root user. | Sep 16 13:52 |
fewa | if you log it right | Sep 16 13:52 |
fewa | oiaohm, exactly, that is its weakness | Sep 16 13:53 |
fewa | but that doesn't mean it needs to be eliminated | Sep 16 13:53 |
oiaohm | Need to be replaced because of its weakness. | Sep 16 13:53 |
fewa | as we see in Windows, attempts to outlaw Administrator/root do not work | Sep 16 13:53 |
fewa | they are brutal disasters | Sep 16 13:53 |
fewa | this is the fatal flaw in your thinking | Sep 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | MS desasters are there own fault. | Sep 16 13:54 |
fewa | you are a nilist | Sep 16 13:54 |
fewa | and are throwing out the baby with the bathwater | Sep 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | Other OS's in history did it perfectly without issue. | Sep 16 13:54 |
fewa | oiaohm, which? the UNIX which you are attacking? | Sep 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | Not Unix's | Sep 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | Some were verations on them. | Sep 16 13:54 |
oiaohm | Application based secuirty is not a new idea. | Sep 16 13:55 |
fewa | I thnk we believe in essentially the same thing | Sep 16 13:55 |
oiaohm | MS tried going half way between to models. | Sep 16 13:55 |
oiaohm | Ie services no secured. | Sep 16 13:55 |
oiaohm | userspace application evelivation based. | Sep 16 13:55 |
fewa | but you don't seem to get or want to oncede my esstial point | Sep 16 13:55 |
fewa | and I have to admit that it is not a root "user" | Sep 16 13:55 |
oiaohm | That was kinda going to go splat. | Sep 16 13:55 |
fewa | but rather there must be "god" credentials which are easy to use | Sep 16 13:56 |
fewa | and deliniate | Sep 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | I agree with god credentials to hand out powers. | Sep 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | Key words hand out powers. | Sep 16 13:56 |
fewa | If that is given to a application, than that application must be really easy to use | Sep 16 13:56 |
fewa | as init currently gets root | Sep 16 13:56 |
oiaohm | The uncontrolled handing out of powers is a major problem. | Sep 16 13:56 |
fewa | and then deliniated from there | Sep 16 13:57 |
fewa | *deliniates | Sep 16 13:57 |
oiaohm | Unix got sevices kind of right. | Sep 16 13:57 |
fewa | oiaohm, so how are you going to delineate the credentials? | Sep 16 13:57 |
oiaohm | Yep fewa | Sep 16 13:57 |
fewa | oiaohm, well maybe them we are not so differn't---and this argument is over the semantics of "user" | Sep 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | File based credentials already exist. | Sep 16 13:58 |
fewa | oiaohm, but who sets them | Sep 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | Currently I would have to use a flaged application. | Sep 16 13:58 |
fewa | once again `trusted system or component' is defined as `one which can break the security policy' | Sep 16 13:58 |
oiaohm | Due to the fact the current creditional systems does not allow me to assign all right to a user and then not have it pass to the applications the user runs unless they are flaged. | Sep 16 13:59 |
fewa | the critical questions are "who/what is trusted?" and "how do those trusted delineate credentials/rights?" | Sep 16 13:59 |
oiaohm | Yes who and what is trusted is critical. | Sep 16 13:59 |
fewa | oiaohm, yeah agreed, POSIX file permissions are fatally flawed | Sep 16 13:59 |
fewa | a extremely crude system designed for the limitations of the day that could be significantly improved | Sep 16 14:00 |
fewa | those questions are the foundation of the power structure of the whole system | Sep 16 14:00 |
oiaohm | user just answers one question. | Sep 16 14:00 |
oiaohm | ie who | Sep 16 14:01 |
oiaohm | It never answers what should be trusted. | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | i dont think that way | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | I agree that applications should be limited to what they need | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | to allow the user to protect himself | Sep 16 14:01 |
oiaohm | Should a web browser be trusted just because you run it as root. | Sep 16 14:01 |
oiaohm | ie a what | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | (do think that the programmer is protecting the user, that is backwards) | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | oiaohm, YES | Sep 16 14:01 |
fewa | but you should never run it as root | Sep 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | Root users do make mistakes | Sep 16 14:02 |
fewa | as only a fool would do that | Sep 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | Like mixing up what terminal is the root terminal and what termanal is the user. | Sep 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | Human error. | Sep 16 14:02 |
oiaohm | you don't need to be a fool to make human error. | Sep 16 14:02 |
fewa | --and people should be informed of what is foolhardy | Sep 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | You just need the right ammount of lack of sleep. | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | oiaohm, of course | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | but the system cannot outsmart the user | Sep 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | Of course not. | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | I'm just saying that god mode must exist | Sep 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | But system should be trying to prevent a admin from human erroring themselves where it can. | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | that that it really should be able to do foolish things | Sep 16 14:03 |
oiaohm | Even that the admin can decide to override it. | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | it really should be able to run a web browser as root | Sep 16 14:03 |
fewa | I'm not saying people should do these things: they should not | Sep 16 14:04 |
oiaohm | web browser not approved runs lower. | Sep 16 14:04 |
oiaohm | So not a system threat. | Sep 16 14:04 |
fewa | all the stuff you talk about should be implamented | Sep 16 14:04 |
fewa | web browsers should not run with the full permissions of the user | Sep 16 14:04 |
fewa | they should run with limited permissions, only what they need to do their job | Sep 16 14:04 |
fewa | all applications a user runs should be on a need-to-know basis | Sep 16 14:05 |
oiaohm | root user need to either disappear or be replaced with something application based secuirty. | Sep 16 14:05 |
fewa | I'm just saying that the administrator must always be allowed to make foolish choices | Sep 16 14:05 |
fewa | the system and the system programmer should not try to outsmart the administrator | Sep 16 14:05 |
oiaohm | If they request it. | Sep 16 14:05 |
oiaohm | Not just because of a moment of not thinking. | Sep 16 14:06 |
fewa | that critical point is what ive been arguing this last hour | Sep 16 14:06 |
oiaohm | What I am talking about is not trying to outsmart the admin. | Sep 16 14:06 |
fewa | oiaohm, yeah you are right | Sep 16 14:06 |
fewa | the system interface is deeply flawed | Sep 16 14:06 |
fewa | many problems with it | Sep 16 14:06 |
oiaohm | Most not hard really to address. | Sep 16 14:07 |
fewa | The best solution you have stated in implamenting undo functions | Sep 16 14:07 |
oiaohm | Mostly take up better models and move away from user based secuirty. | Sep 16 14:07 |
fewa | I think a COW filesystem is one a the best first steps towards that | Sep 16 14:07 |
oiaohm | Not cow | Sep 16 14:07 |
fewa | as it can do it without losing functionality | Sep 16 14:07 |
oiaohm | nilfs fewa | Sep 16 14:07 |
fewa | or speed | Sep 16 14:07 |
oiaohm | Loging filesystems. | Sep 16 14:08 |
oiaohm | There is a difference. | Sep 16 14:08 |
fewa | combination | Sep 16 14:08 |
oiaohm | logging can recycle. | Sep 16 14:08 |
oiaohm | cow don't recycle. | Sep 16 14:08 |
oiaohm | Ie cow you will always fill the disk in time. | Sep 16 14:08 |
fewa | COW is an important part of making a good NILFS work well | Sep 16 14:08 |
fewa | oiaohm, it deleted that which is oldest | Sep 16 14:08 |
fewa | *deleates | Sep 16 14:08 |
fewa | deletes | Sep 16 14:08 |
oiaohm | Logging deletes the oldest. | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | after it is no longger a problem | Sep 16 14:09 |
oiaohm | Just cow does not. | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | its implamentations do | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | the COW is that way it is efficiently implamented | Sep 16 14:09 |
oiaohm | logging and cow are classed of implementations. | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | hmm | Sep 16 14:09 |
oiaohm | logging uses cow and has oldest removal. | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | I don't see why they are exclusive of each other | Sep 16 14:09 |
fewa | so you are saying NILFS is a superset of COW? | Sep 16 14:10 |
oiaohm | COW alone does not have oldest removal. | Sep 16 14:10 |
oiaohm | NILFS is a logging class filesystem. | Sep 16 14:10 |
fewa | BRTFS is COW | Sep 16 14:10 |
fewa | and provides access to old data | Sep 16 14:10 |
fewa | but i guess there is a differn't | Sep 16 14:11 |
oiaohm | Does not provide a automatic removal system. | Sep 16 14:11 |
oiaohm | So yes its a COW. | Sep 16 14:11 |
oiaohm | a pure one. | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | exactly | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | a pure COW is fully reversable | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | as long as it logs metadata | Sep 16 14:11 |
oiaohm | Pure COWs are harddrive eaters. | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | log metadata and COW data | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | hmm. | Sep 16 14:11 |
fewa | why? | Sep 16 14:12 |
fewa | fragmentation? | Sep 16 14:12 |
*MinceR sends the Pure COW to graze on the magnetic field. | Sep 16 14:12 | |
oiaohm | Because you have to remember to remove the oldest. | Sep 16 14:12 |
fewa | MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO | Sep 16 14:12 |
fewa | oiaohm, if there is a log how is that hard? | Sep 16 14:12 |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@98.165.33.243) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 16 14:12 | |
oiaohm | Where a logging has the means to remove old records and keep on going when records become not important. | Sep 16 14:12 |
fewa | a linier log would create much more fragmentation than COW | Sep 16 14:13 |
oiaohm | Yes they really should have given that class a better now. | Sep 16 14:13 |
fewa | its like amendments in congress | Sep 16 14:13 |
fewa | ...slash this word from here, and add this word here... | Sep 16 14:13 |
fewa | you never get the context or underand anything | Sep 16 14:13 |
oiaohm | Ie logging filesystem is a COW filesystem with GC | Sep 16 14:13 |
fewa | COW is the proper way to think about it | Sep 16 14:13 |
fewa | not logging | Sep 16 14:14 |
oiaohm | The name is kinda wrong. | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | logging is emperical from the wrong angle | Sep 16 14:14 |
oiaohm | But it has kind stuck. | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | hmm | Sep 16 14:14 |
oiaohm | it was using wrong on the first logging filesystem. | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | I only hear about COW | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | and that makes sense | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | its extremely logical | Sep 16 14:14 |
oiaohm | Copy on write is used many places. | Sep 16 14:14 |
fewa | It puts the data as the first class object | Sep 16 14:15 |
fewa | and describes an efficent way to manage copying and logging of changes | Sep 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | First filesystem taged cow was ext2 altered to be cow. | Sep 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | It had no clean up system. | Sep 16 14:15 |
fewa | well COW needs a log | Sep 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | So one day it would stop out of disk space. | Sep 16 14:15 |
fewa | a log of metadata | Sep 16 14:15 |
oiaohm | That is where logging name comes from fewa | Sep 16 14:16 |
fewa | well ok | Sep 16 14:16 |
oiaohm | ext2 cow did not. | Sep 16 14:16 |
fewa | but i think the COW paradime makes more sense | Sep 16 14:16 |
oiaohm | It just never overwrote anything. | Sep 16 14:16 |
oiaohm | So you could reconstruct backwards. | Sep 16 14:16 |
fewa | and should be the arvertisment | Sep 16 14:16 |
oiaohm | Ie a file system that is just COW is not that useful. | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | cause if you think from "log" you miss the point | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | to me that just gives a bad picture | Sep 16 14:17 |
oiaohm | I said the name suxed. | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | but yeah you are right | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | its log+cow | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | well anyways... I want it :P | Sep 16 14:17 |
fewa | and if you fallowed the UNIX paradim of making everything the file system then you could apply it to everything | Sep 16 14:18 |
fewa | with a universal API | Sep 16 14:18 |
fewa | now that would be cool | Sep 16 14:18 |
fewa | like storying snapshots of programs as then run | Sep 16 14:19 |
oiaohm | Been tried. | Sep 16 14:19 |
fewa | coinciding with the states of files in their namespaces | Sep 16 14:19 |
oiaohm | Guess what you can already do it. | Sep 16 14:19 |
oiaohm | Cgroups | Sep 16 14:19 |
oiaohm | You can snapshot running programs. | Sep 16 14:19 |
fewa | yeah, but it needs a good overriding API, and something comperable with filesystems at the same time | Sep 16 14:20 |
fewa | and if i am not mistaken brtfs will offer that | Sep 16 14:20 |
oiaohm | Yep. | Sep 16 14:20 |
fewa | it seems so cool | Sep 16 14:20 |
oiaohm | Cgroup developers are waiting on btrfs or equal. | Sep 16 14:20 |
fewa | like you can mount the way the filesystem was at any point in time | Sep 16 14:20 |
fewa | see this is awesome | Sep 16 14:21 |
fewa | you can have a time machine for all events on the system in an efficient manner | Sep 16 14:21 |
fewa | I cant wait to see it in action | Sep 16 14:21 |
oiaohm | Key difference is that you with btrfs is that you can start writing from any point you mount. | Sep 16 14:21 |
oiaohm | Ie any point in time. | Sep 16 14:21 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Hides Bad Results in the Closet http://ping.fm/nlPhI | Sep 16 14:21 | |
fewa | once you can do that it will get really important to define process namespaces | Sep 16 14:21 |
oiaohm | nilfs does not allow you to start another time line. | Sep 16 14:21 |
fewa | so that not everything is coupled with everything else | Sep 16 14:21 |
fewa | and fallow that reorganization security deliniation and LSM will get much easier | Sep 16 14:22 |
*fewa can hardly hold back his excitment | Sep 16 14:22 | |
fewa | *fallowing | Sep 16 14:22 |
fewa | as processes will can be forced to have their requirements clearly defined | Sep 16 14:22 |
fewa | ..or encouraged | Sep 16 14:23 |
fewa | there will be a rational on putting your program into a box | Sep 16 14:23 |
fewa | oiaohm, thats why the paradime is wrong | Sep 16 14:24 |
fewa | oiaohm, it has to be a tree structure | Sep 16 14:24 |
fewa | and COW fits that paradime | Sep 16 14:24 |
fewa | *paradigm | Sep 16 14:25 |
fewa | god my spelling sucks | Sep 16 14:25 |
fewa | oiaohm, doesn't it seem exciting? | Sep 16 14:26 |
oiaohm | We have seen nothing yet. | Sep 16 14:26 |
oiaohm | I am looking forward to the Linux kernel by default being a real-time kernel. | Sep 16 14:27 |
fewa | to have real control over the execution access | Sep 16 14:27 |
fewa | what type of differnt program could you design | Sep 16 14:28 |
fewa | anyways, despite hash words I do think we agree | Sep 16 14:28 |
fewa | *harsh | Sep 16 14:28 |
oiaohm | It was a context difference. | Sep 16 14:28 |
oiaohm | Missing the importance I was putting on 1 word user. Since that was in my mind defining how the secuirty was applied. | Sep 16 14:29 |
fewa | oiaohm, whats the difference with real time? | Sep 16 14:29 |
*kazakh (i=5ef67e72@gateway/web/freenode/x-cjmqmzpmvvvixerx) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 16 14:29 | |
oiaohm | Stuff like pulseaudio and jack audio working for one fewa | Sep 16 14:30 |
oiaohm | Less locks in the kernel so better over all performance. | Sep 16 14:30 |
fewa | and how does it differ from what we have now? | Sep 16 14:30 |
oiaohm | There is still about another 200 locks to go. | Sep 16 14:30 |
oiaohm | Ie disappear for good never to return. | Sep 16 14:30 |
fewa | http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_31 says that memory management at low memory situation has improved resposiveness of desktops by 50% in 2.6.31 | Sep 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | That was a swap out stupidity fix. | Sep 16 14:31 |
fewa | just like lock fixes | Sep 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | Since binaries are maped files. | Sep 16 14:31 |
fewa | evening out the bumps of running a secure system | Sep 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | the memory manager was throwing them out of memory. | Sep 16 14:31 |
oiaohm | Instead of swaping anything. | Sep 16 14:32 |
fewa | the difference between kernel mode and user mode is the same as the root user stuff we were talking about a minute ago | Sep 16 14:32 |
oiaohm | Not really handy having to reload the next application because you dumped it out of memory. | Sep 16 14:32 |
fewa | the same sort of problems, and solved through having a kernel which performed trusted events on the behalf of programs | Sep 16 14:33 |
oiaohm | Yep 50 percent peformance just by making memory manager a little smarter. | Sep 16 14:33 |
fewa | thats allot like your application-based security you were just stressing | Sep 16 14:33 |
oiaohm | There is already fragments of applications based secuirty there. | Sep 16 14:33 |
fewa | but the _settings_ of the security are outside the kernel | Sep 16 14:34 |
fewa | the kernel only sets the context of security settings | Sep 16 14:34 |
oiaohm | kernel responds to the context of secuirty settings. | Sep 16 14:34 |
fewa | thats kinda the same as the distinction I was just hammering | Sep 16 14:35 |
oiaohm | It is the one in control of how the context will be processed. | Sep 16 14:35 |
fewa | those context definitions are the most critical part of the security system, and the system in general | Sep 16 14:35 |
oiaohm | We are different. I talk more in secuirty design words. | Sep 16 14:35 |
fewa | yeah, you have any literature i should read? | Sep 16 14:35 |
kazakh | Hey guys, have you hard of the news Tax Commitee in Kazakhstan has bought over 6000 PCs with XP and OpenOffice.org preinstalled? This is one of the largest OO.org deployments in government and Micro$oft got pissed off of it. High M$ officials are now doing dirty tricks now to bribe Tax commitee away from OO and hide this incident. Let's spread the word. M$ must not succeed in their dirty tricks! | Sep 16 14:36 |
oiaohm | bugger I cannot remember the name fewa there is the old USA mil OS secuirty design document. its something book I cannot remember the color fewa | Sep 16 14:37 |
fewa | i really liked that Department defence definition of trusted | Sep 16 14:37 |
fewa | makes alot of sense | Sep 16 14:37 |
oiaohm | Yes all these years latter its a solid book. | Sep 16 14:37 |
oiaohm | Covers all the current forms of secuirty systems even ones not common implemented. | Sep 16 14:38 |
trmanco | kazakh: good move indeed, but it would be a lot better if it was shipped with a real OS :-P | Sep 16 14:38 |
oiaohm | trmanco: it is a start. | Sep 16 14:38 |
kazakh | Yes, but it's the first step in the right direction. | Sep 16 14:38 |
fewa | Its from the designers point of view | Sep 16 14:38 |
oiaohm | Big issue here MS will most likely give them software for nothing. | Sep 16 14:38 |
fewa | instead the view of the pawn in the game | Sep 16 14:38 |
oiaohm | To try to get them back. | Sep 16 14:38 |
fewa | *instead of | Sep 16 14:38 |
kazakh | And it is at risk now. M$ is very good at persuading governemtn officials. | Sep 16 14:39 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Hello everybody! | Sep 16 14:39 | |
oiaohm | Yes the document has down side it does not cover how to be nice to users fewa. | Sep 16 14:39 |
fewa | One of the fundamental truths I hold is the futility of trying to prevent others from being fools | Sep 16 14:40 |
oiaohm | You cannot help fools. | Sep 16 14:40 |
oiaohm | Because they are too creative. | Sep 16 14:40 |
fewa | All people can be fools | Sep 16 14:41 |
oiaohm | Darwin awards proves that in spades. | Sep 16 14:41 |
fewa | its essentially a ways of blaming the victim | Sep 16 14:41 |
oiaohm | Not really. | Sep 16 14:41 |
oiaohm | Not all people are fools. | Sep 16 14:41 |
oiaohm | Every human makes human error. | Sep 16 14:41 |
oiaohm | Non fool when pulled up on human error goes opps better not do that. | Sep 16 14:41 |
kazakh | How can we get Roy investigate this and put it in light. I really wish other governemnt bodies follow the suit. Its huge saving for the public. Thx | Sep 16 14:42 |
fewa | kazakh, yeah I bet schestowitz can write an article about it | Sep 16 14:42 |
oiaohm | The system need to protect and help fewa. ie help by providing notice to user when they are doing something strange. | Sep 16 14:43 |
fewa | kazakh, it would help if you suggest what he should write, collect sources, etc | Sep 16 14:43 |
fewa | tell the story | Sep 16 14:43 |
kazakh | I'll try. | Sep 16 14:43 |
fewa | you already have done that somewhat | Sep 16 14:43 |
fewa | but sources are always good | Sep 16 14:43 |
kazakh | I cant be too open though, working for the partner who works with commitee and even M$ itself. will be fired same moment :) | Sep 16 14:44 |
fewa | nothing eleborate.. and then just mention it to schestowitz when he in on | Sep 16 14:44 |
fewa | just say what you want to | Sep 16 14:44 |
fewa | email it to him if that works | Sep 16 14:44 |
kazakh | OK. I'll try find official link. | Sep 16 14:45 |
fewa | from what you have already said it seems pretty cut and dry | Sep 16 14:45 |
kazakh | post it here. | Sep 16 14:45 |
fewa | oiaohm, agreed | Sep 16 14:45 |
oiaohm | Email to schestowitz for more complex can be more effective. | Sep 16 14:45 |
oiaohm | Ie sometimes schestowitz misses a message in here kazakh | Sep 16 14:46 |
oiaohm | Basically if you just post it here make sure schestowitz picked it up kazakh | Sep 16 14:46 |
kazakh | there's was official tender results declaration on their site in russian. cant find it now. but I will persevere :) | Sep 16 14:47 |
oiaohm | fewa: really I need to get a good writer at some time to help me write a book on how to design a secuirty system that will not piss off users. | Sep 16 14:47 |
fewa | I think designing a system that can transpose the passage of execution and branch it could be enlightening | Sep 16 14:49 |
fewa | but yeah, that would be cool I would like to read it :P | Sep 16 14:49 |
fewa | and you should remember that Military design book you were thinking of | Sep 16 14:49 |
fewa | *Military security design | Sep 16 14:50 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Hype is Torn Apart, One ‘Feature’ at a Time http://ping.fm/5sXX8 | Sep 16 14:59 | |
kazakh | Bloody M$ seems succeeded in overturning this tender. or close to it. cant find the declaration on their site any more. | Sep 16 15:04 |
kazakh | Can someone please advise Roys contacts? | Sep 16 15:05 |
kazakh | Or at least when he is here. | Sep 16 15:05 |
kazakh | thx | Sep 16 15:05 |
oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Series Found the list of the old USA mil books fewa | Sep 16 15:06 |
fewa | schestowitz, | Sep 16 15:09 |
fewa | "In trusted products at the high end of | Sep 16 15:11 |
fewa | the range, the strength of the reference monitor is such that most of the | Sep 16 15:11 |
fewa | components can be completely untrusted. " | Sep 16 15:11 |
fewa | from the preface to the first one | Sep 16 15:11 |
fewa | exactly--very little code is security sensitive | Sep 16 15:12 |
fewa | aha | Sep 16 15:12 |
fewa | you have to remember that in the days of linux there were also distinct POVs on security | Sep 16 15:13 |
fewa | it was security of the system, not the users | Sep 16 15:13 |
fewa | *user(s) | Sep 16 15:13 |
fewa | in Windows its about security to the win32 API | Sep 16 15:13 |
fewa | in "Trusted Computing" its about control of the MAFIAA and the computer vendors | Sep 16 15:14 |
fewa | but since trust always depends on mutuality, the only really trusted system has to place the users and the administrators first | Sep 16 15:14 |
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fewa | anyways... | Sep 16 15:15 |
fewa | give them power to place trust | Sep 16 15:16 |
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ugh, there was an excellent tear down article about XP emulation in Windows 7 being good only for "green screen cobalt" applications. | Sep 16 15:36 | |
can't find it | Sep 16 15:36 | |
trmanco | http://www.reddit.com/tb/9ktvw | Sep 16 15:46 |
trmanco | omfg | Sep 16 15:47 |
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trmanco | see the serial key the guy gave him | Sep 16 15:47 |
trmanco | HINT: Try to read it | Sep 16 15:47 |
was it, "getgnulinux" ? | Sep 16 15:50 | |
fewa | twitter, it should be | Sep 16 15:50 |
fewa | or dEfE-ctiVe-By412-dEsIg-N | Sep 16 15:50 |
fewa | trmanco, also link to the real thing, not reddit framset pages | Sep 16 15:51 |
trmanco | sorry | Sep 16 15:52 |
fewa | although I am a reddit fan | Sep 16 15:53 |
MinceR | :) | Sep 16 15:53 |
trmanco | :) | Sep 16 15:53 |
fewa | "Am I the only one who sees something wrong here? I came home from abroad by way of JFK International. In the customs area they had a sign saying that there's a $5,000 for assaulting a federal officer. I go home, pop in a DVD and am reminded that copying this DVD will incur a $250,000 fine. " | Sep 16 15:54 |
fewa | lawl | Sep 16 15:54 |
MinceR | :) | Sep 16 15:55 |
MinceR | solution: instead of copying that dvd, take a video of you beating up a federal officer and copy that instead! | Sep 16 15:55 |
fewa | what does the AMA suffix mean? | Sep 16 15:55 |
fewa | http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/9kwjs/while_you_were_all_talking_about_obamas_calling/ | Sep 16 15:59 |
fewa | yep, huffingtonpost is falling into banality | Sep 16 16:00 |
fewa | " | Sep 16 16:01 |
fewa | The Obama administration argued Monday that allowing terrorism suspects in Afghanistan to challenge their incarceration in U.S. courts would endanger the military mission in that country." | Sep 16 16:01 |
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fewa | The don't even pretend anymore | Sep 16 16:01 |
fewa | unadulterated attack on exercise of liberty and on accountability | Sep 16 16:02 |
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fewa | there should be a open source reddit clone | Sep 16 16:10 |
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fewa | Didn't anyone notice that Obama campaigned as a centrist? | Sep 16 16:20 |
fewa | Exactly. However, Palin and her ilk insisted on calling him a socialist/communist and it might have gotten people's hopes up. | Sep 16 16:20 |
fewa | lawl | Sep 16 16:21 |
kazakh | What's a way to contact Roy Schestowitz? I'd like to share a news which burns my head. Does someone know? Thx | Sep 16 16:21 |
fewa | schestowitz, wakeup | Sep 16 16:22 |
fewa | * [schestowitz] idle 03:14:16, signon: Fri Sep 11 06:16:33 | Sep 16 16:23 |
fewa | i dont know his email, check out the web site | Sep 16 16:23 |
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kazakh | I gone thru the site and cant find his mail :( | Sep 16 16:34 |
kazakh | But right, if he in US he must sleep now in his timezone. | Sep 16 16:35 |
_goblin | no he is UK | Sep 16 16:35 |
_goblin | its 1638 | Sep 16 16:35 |
_goblin | he will be about soon I would expect... | Sep 16 16:36 |
kazakh | ok thx i will try in couple hours | Sep 16 16:43 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Tomar uma banho | Sep 16 16:44 | |
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amarsh04 | kazakh: if you know the convention of changing email addresses, you can use: roy at schestowitz dot com | Sep 16 16:53 |
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schestowitz | hey, kazakh | Sep 16 16:59 |
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sebsebseb | hi | Sep 16 17:05 |
schestowitz | Hi, sebsebseb | Sep 16 17:07 |
sebsebseb | schestowitz: hi | Sep 16 17:07 |
kazakh | hi roy. glad to hear u | Sep 16 17:17 |
kazakh | thx amarsh04. easy! how i guessed it not self. | Sep 16 17:19 |
amarsh04 | good kazakh, anyway, schestowitz is here now also | Sep 16 17:19 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] exercises in temper control: not striking down teen with lightning from above when she calls james brown "chav music" | Sep 16 17:21 | |
kazakh | roy, i want to share news that Kazakhstani Tax Commitee bought 6000 PCs with OpenOffice.org installed. this is huge migration in government. but m$ trying now hard to bribe Tax Commitee officials to overturn tender results. | Sep 16 17:21 |
kazakh | it is good saving for public money and self am a good taxpayer | Sep 16 17:22 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] true love: reinstalling windows for your loved one's daughter. FUCKING THING AAARGH. | Sep 16 17:22 | |
kazakh | if this news spread well, other government officials will follow. but, micro$oft dosnt like it. | Sep 16 17:23 |
kazakh | so they hide it. how can we help spread this? thx | Sep 16 17:24 |
_goblin | kazakh: Have you any links? | Sep 16 17:26 |
schestowitz | Hey, kazakh | Sep 16 17:26 |
schestowitz | Are you on IRC via a phone? | Sep 16 17:27 |
schestowitz | kazakh: can you share the details here? | Sep 16 17:27 |
schestowitz | Microsoft visited your country | Sep 16 17:27 |
_goblin | iphone I'd guess? | Sep 16 17:28 |
schestowitz | They send the 'anti-Linux' guy, Orlando | Sep 16 17:28 |
schestowitz | Why is Microsoft’s Anti-Linux Man Negotiating with Kazakhstan? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/03/kazakhstan-linux-microsoft-visit/ > | Sep 16 17:28 |
_goblin | ah | Sep 16 17:29 |
_goblin | is BN down? | Sep 16 17:29 |
_goblin | oh hang on.... | Sep 16 17:29 |
_goblin | nope its ok. | Sep 16 17:29 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #CodePlex Foundation Loves Software #Patents and What #MonoTouch Means to #Microsoft http://ping.fm/lP7k3 | Sep 16 17:30 | |
schestowitz | kazakh: I have to run to a meeting | Sep 16 17:30 |
schestowitz | Here's what I suggest | Sep 16 17:31 |
schestowitz | I have some background information on this | Sep 16 17:31 |
schestowitz | Paste here in IRC any links that provide context and new information | Sep 16 17:31 |
schestowitz | I'd need to check the facts with some URLs that lie around | Sep 16 17:31 |
schestowitz | If you have a document you can link, you have my mail address | Sep 16 17:31 |
schestowitz | We can make a post it | Sep 16 17:31 |
*schestowitz back in 2 hours | Sep 16 17:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me Opens Netbeans | Sep 16 17:33 | |
kazakh | ok. I will find information in russian and translate it for you and will email. Thx. Let us not allow them getaway with it. | Sep 16 17:33 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @mattcutts: Google acquires reCAPTCHA: http://bit.ly/177Vp1 Yay! And here's a captcha cartoon for you: http://bit.ly/eQRDw | Sep 16 17:50 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Já implementei a minha ideia... está na hora agora de fazer outra coisa :-P | Sep 16 17:56 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] The awesome @dholbach has made a screencast showing how to file bugs in Ubuntu! http://bit.ly/14EVb7 http://bit.ly/QsJcX | Sep 16 18:37 | |
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_goblin | Not impressed at all with gNewsense 2.3 | Sep 16 18:49 |
_goblin | it merely 8.04 with outdated packages and minus anything non-free. | Sep 16 18:50 |
_goblin | the average Linux user could do this themselves with a standard Ubuntu install and the new user is not going to migrate from Windows to this (IMO) | Sep 16 18:51 |
_goblin | and thats not including its packaged with years old software..... | Sep 16 18:51 |
_goblin | first bad distro review. | Sep 16 18:51 |
_goblin | The only thing in its favour is the fact MONO is stripped from it..... | Sep 16 18:52 |
_goblin | and of course you have the stability of 8.04LTS running under the hood. | Sep 16 18:52 |
trmanco | I like more bleeding edge | Sep 16 18:55 |
_goblin | this was more like bleeding out of date! | Sep 16 18:57 |
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_goblin | I feel a little bad posting a bad distro review.... | Sep 16 18:58 |
trmanco | the version of software in gnewsense are the same as in 8.04, correct? | Sep 16 19:00 |
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sebsebseb | trmanco: I think so, and free software only in gnewsense | Sep 16 19:09 |
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trmanco | then it's not really that outdated | Sep 16 19:09 |
sebsebseb | trmanco: Heh I thought this was the Ubuntu support channal just before replying to you | Sep 16 19:10 |
trmanco | lol | Sep 16 19:10 |
fewa_ | trmanco, aww really | Sep 16 19:17 |
fewa_ | reCAPCHA was a great thing | Sep 16 19:17 |
fewa_ | and now it will be subject to a google cookie? | Sep 16 19:17 |
trmanco | and is a great thing | Sep 16 19:17 |
trmanco | I use it | Sep 16 19:18 |
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schestowitz | _goblin: good news about no mono in gnewsense | Sep 16 19:32 |
schestowitz | _goblin: gnewsense needs to bve reviewed for what it is | Sep 16 19:32 |
schestowitz | It's a FREE (libre) distro | Sep 16 19:32 |
schestowitz | It's _Winning_ for what it is -- enabling the users to be free | Sep 16 19:33 |
schestowitz | Matt Cutts Extends Offer To Yahoo Engineers http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/16/matt-cutts-extends-offer-to-yahoo-engineers | Sep 16 19:39 |
*fewa_ is now known as fewa | Sep 16 19:40 | |
_goblin | sorry...afk | Sep 16 19:41 |
_goblin | yeah the problem with it is that is based on very old s/w | Sep 16 19:41 |
_goblin | and not an enticement to go 100% free. | Sep 16 19:42 |
schestowitz | [IMG] http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/1029_signs.jpg | Sep 16 19:42 |
schestowitz | _goblin: the enticement is not tehcnical | Sep 16 19:42 |
schestowitz | More philosophical or political | Sep 16 19:42 |
fewa | Debian and Fedora are also libre distros | Sep 16 19:42 |
_goblin | agreed...but then one would say simply go 9.04 and strip it yourself. | Sep 16 19:43 |
fewa | and then you are not running a forked Debian | Sep 16 19:43 |
schestowitz | fewa: not to the same extent | Sep 16 19:43 |
fewa | biggest difference I can think of in binary blogs in the kernel | Sep 16 19:44 |
fewa | *blobs | Sep 16 19:44 |
fewa | also gnewsense is designed without the non-free repos | Sep 16 19:45 |
fewa | but what else schestowitz ? | Sep 16 19:45 |
schestowitz | Exactly. | Sep 16 19:45 |
schestowitz | Not sure if there is anything else | Sep 16 19:45 |
schestowitz | Hmm... that last COmes exhibit is linked from many places, I see... | Sep 16 19:47 |
schestowitz | We need to decide on more to decode. | Sep 16 19:47 |
_goblin | I think its a difficult one to recommend to anyone....new users will find it restrictive (IMO) and experienced ones can do it themselves anyway.... | Sep 16 19:47 |
schestowitz | wallclimber does the next part of Nathan (the troll) on Linux | Sep 16 19:47 |
schestowitz | _goblin: it's not for newbies | Sep 16 19:47 |
schestowitz | It may be recommended among FSF's list | Sep 16 19:47 |
schestowitz | BLAG, Utoto and others | Sep 16 19:48 |
schestowitz | _goblin: mandatory reading (obligatory rather): http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/FSF-Publish-New-List-Of-Truly-Free-Linux-Distributions | Sep 16 19:51 |
schestowitz | Assessing gnewsense as though it was for Jon and Jane is like checking out some chainsaw for a chef's kitchen | Sep 16 19:52 |
trmanco | http://mozillaservice.org/learn_more/volunteer/en_US | Sep 16 19:53 |
schestowitz | This is why Linux ain't going away, ever. http://blogs.computerworld.com/14738/archos_5_the_linux_internet_tablet_for_everyone | Sep 16 19:53 |
schestowitz | Microsoft abandoned not only XP but also its sibling. http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/09/16/windows_server_2003_no_third_service_pack/ | Sep 16 19:54 |
schestowitz | HA! | Sep 16 19:54 |
schestowitz | They must be running out of skilled programmers or staff or something, like oiaohm said | Sep 16 19:55 |
schestowitz | http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/09/lithium-ion-new-hotness-in-electric-carsexcept-for-toyota.ars | Sep 16 19:55 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] gNewsense 2.3-deltah review: http://tinyurl.com/p3odkq #linux #foss | Sep 16 19:55 | |
schestowitz | http://reviews.cnet.com/frankfurt-auto-show/ | Sep 16 19:55 |
schestowitz | ^an excuse for selling more new cars | Sep 16 19:55 |
schestowitz | Sheriff Uses Craigslist To Arrest Prostitutes... Blames Craigslist http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090915/0959486201.shtml | Sep 16 19:57 |
schestowitz | fewa: Anti-Choice Floridians Peddling Constitutional Amendment to Criminalize Birth Control Pill http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/142623/anti-choice_floridians_peddling_constitutional_amendment_to_criminalize_birth_control_pill/ | Sep 16 19:57 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] I have actually found the use case where Windows 7 is a superior upgrade to XP! http://is.gd/3lBRy | Sep 16 20:03 | |
DaemonFC | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu/+bug/423640 | Sep 16 20:08 |
DaemonFC | I noticed that one | Sep 16 20:08 |
DaemonFC | Instead of giving you Pidgin, they give you a half-finished, alpha quality program called Empathy | Sep 16 20:08 |
MinceR | does empathy depend on mono? | Sep 16 20:09 |
schestowitz | Empathy...... seen a feature comparison today? | Sep 16 20:09 |
schestowitz | WOTZ wrong w/ Pisgin? | Sep 16 20:09 |
schestowitz | *Pidgin/ | Sep 16 20:09 |
schestowitz | They also want to replace GIMP | Sep 16 20:09 |
schestowitz | Perfectly fine apps | Sep 16 20:09 |
MinceR | i've seen pidgin crash on incoming messages | Sep 16 20:09 |
MinceR | currently i use gajim at work | Sep 16 20:09 |
MinceR | but it isn't perfect | Sep 16 20:09 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Pidgin is affected by some MSN boot tools | Sep 16 20:11 |
DaemonFC | especially the text formatting flood | Sep 16 20:11 |
fewa | Sheriffs don't like craigslist cause it cleans up prostitution | Sep 16 20:12 |
fewa | takes out the bribed, the pimps | Sep 16 20:12 |
fewa | *bribes | Sep 16 20:12 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Replacing mature, stable, feature rich applications with alpha software is just not OK | Sep 16 20:12 |
MinceR | the message didn't come from someone who would use such tools | Sep 16 20:12 |
DaemonFC | Empathy might be alright someday, but right now it's still a curiosity more than it is useful | Sep 16 20:13 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Miguel snuggles closer to Microsoft : http://tinyurl.com/rbll3s #microsoft #codeplex #mono #linux #foss | Sep 16 20:13 | |
DaemonFC | it just screams "Here, have another moderately acceptable experience with GNOME" | Sep 16 20:14 |
DaemonFC | I can understand why Brasero has a shared library for burning discs, other applications may find it useful | Sep 16 20:15 |
DaemonFC | I don't understand the point in a shared library for instant messaging | Sep 16 20:15 |
DaemonFC | if you're already running one instant messenger, why does another app need to embed this library? | Sep 16 20:15 |
MinceR | the point is that different UIs can use the same code | Sep 16 20:16 |
fewa | MinceR, empathy does not use mono | Sep 16 20:16 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: Because that's not confusing or redundant or anything.... | Sep 16 20:16 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 16 20:16 |
MinceR | for example BitlBee was built on Pidgin's plugins | Sep 16 20:16 |
MinceR | back when libpurple didn't exist, afaik | Sep 16 20:16 |
MinceR | (at least in part) | Sep 16 20:16 |
fewa | it is all C | Sep 16 20:16 |
MinceR | fewa: then my simple explanation doesn't apply :> | Sep 16 20:16 |
DaemonFC | MinceR: I don't get why you want another UI for a program that has the same limitations as the one you're trying to get rid of | Sep 16 20:17 |
DaemonFC | maybe that's just me | Sep 16 20:17 |
MinceR | the UI can have limitations of its own | Sep 16 20:17 |
MinceR | or you might want to develop a bot for an IM system | Sep 16 20:17 |
DaemonFC | right now, Empathy has all the design problems of Pidgin plus more of its own | Sep 16 20:17 |
DaemonFC | it's a really poor example | Sep 16 20:18 |
fewa | there are many implamentations of these networking IM protocols | Sep 16 20:18 |
MinceR | i didn't bring up Empathy | Sep 16 20:18 |
fewa | I think KDE has a indapandant one too | Sep 16 20:18 |
fewa | *independant | Sep 16 20:18 |
schestowitz | ?*Dent? | Sep 16 20:18 |
DaemonFC | sharing a back end between programs only makes sense if the back end does everything you could ever possibly need it to do | Sep 16 20:18 |
fewa | o yeah | Sep 16 20:19 |
DaemonFC | it doesn't make sense to build a new app on a bad foundation | Sep 16 20:19 |
DaemonFC | or one that's already reached its limits | Sep 16 20:19 |
DaemonFC | it's like saying you got lazy and instead of doing it over and doing it right, you just accept all the limitations of the shared library you're using because it gets the program out the door quicker | Sep 16 20:20 |
MinceR | Arthur Dent. | Sep 16 20:20 |
MinceR | DaemonFC: the backend can be extended/improved. it's free software. :> | Sep 16 20:21 |
DaemonFC | By that logic, Firefox should have just been an MSIE shell | Sep 16 20:21 |
DaemonFC | it would have gotten it out quicker | Sep 16 20:21 |
DaemonFC | Empathy isn't steering libpurple, so they have no control over what their own application does | Sep 16 20:21 |
DaemonFC | GNOME has gotten themselves in the same mess they were complaining about regarding Empathy/Gecko | Sep 16 20:22 |
DaemonFC | Empathy will drag on for a while, never surpass Pidgin, and Ubuntu has given users one more thing they need to know how to go grab | Sep 16 20:23 |
schestowitz | MinceR: Orthodontist? | Sep 16 20:23 |
DaemonFC | At least KDE controls where they are going with their desktop | Sep 16 20:24 |
DaemonFC | it's probably why they aren't rushing to cede control of it to Apple | Sep 16 20:24 |
_goblin | Quote of the day (from a twitter user to me) "Personally though, I think FOSS will stay marginal. Communism didn't work in politics and it will not work in software either." | Sep 16 20:24 |
_goblin | so by that we are all communists apparently. | Sep 16 20:24 |
schestowitz | _goblin: hah! | Sep 16 20:25 |
schestowitz | Tell people what the Internet is made of | Sep 16 20:25 |
schestowitz | Comminet is a better name then | Sep 16 20:25 |
MinceR | schestowitz: nope. | Sep 16 20:25 |
DaemonFC | hmmm, did you tell him to enjoy all the FOSS you have to use on Windows because the bundled shit is worthless-to-actively dangerous? | Sep 16 20:25 |
_goblin | its a new follower Ive picked up..... | Sep 16 20:25 |
schestowitz | _goblin: be careful | Sep 16 20:25 |
schestowitz | A Microsoft manager twitted me today, twice | Sep 16 20:25 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft has pretty much derailed social media | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | They make contact. | Sep 16 20:26 |
_goblin | lol.... | Sep 16 20:26 |
DaemonFC | by implanting their own astroturfers | Sep 16 20:26 |
_goblin | i wish you knew what I did for living Roy.....you wouldnt need to say that! | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | They have patents | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | W-E has that | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | They have trackers for Twitter | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | And they have tons of accounts | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | Some are Microsoft bots | Sep 16 20:26 |
schestowitz | Or scanners that identify 'dissent' | Sep 16 20:26 |
_goblin | yep Ive seen some dodgy links coming in on my blog too.. | Sep 16 20:27 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Buying those Linux-related patents just makes it look like Microsoft could have some more that are potentially useful in a lawsuit | Sep 16 20:27 |
DaemonFC | I would have just let them go | Sep 16 20:27 |
_goblin | Ive been including those in my report. | Sep 16 20:27 |
schestowitz | _goblin: I know you're a goblin | Sep 16 20:27 |
DaemonFC | once you start paying ransom and extortion and negotiating with terrorists, you can never shut that door again | Sep 16 20:27 |
_goblin | Roy, out of all our conversations we've had you could probably make a guess..... | Sep 16 20:27 |
_goblin | although please not here. | Sep 16 20:28 |
schestowitz | I think I can | Sep 16 20:28 |
schestowitz | Probably one of those who do the most /real/ work | Sep 16 20:28 |
_goblin | I'll have to give you some contact details for me before I can see you up in Manchester.....you can then confirm Im not a nut! | Sep 16 20:29 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: You don't see Microsoft buying up patents that could be used against Windows | Sep 16 20:29 |
DaemonFC | even though they know they are out there and could be used against them | Sep 16 20:29 |
schestowitz | ryan: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/16/sears_to_destroy_tracking_software_data/ | Sep 16 20:29 |
DaemonFC | they don't want to declare open season on Windows | Sep 16 20:29 |
DaemonFC | OIN is fucking stupid | Sep 16 20:29 |
DaemonFC | spyware? | Sep 16 20:30 |
schestowitz | _goblin: you're with the MI5, aren't you? | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | "Sears paid some visitors to sears.com and kmart.com $10 to participate in a scheme to monitor their browsing via "research software"." | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | nice | Sep 16 20:31 |
schestowitz | SFLC thanked OIN | Sep 16 20:31 |
schestowitz | So I'm OK with what OIN did, just not in general | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: I'll pay you $10 if you let me snoop on everything you do and install a keylogger so I can jsut jot down all your other transactions with my comeptitors.... | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | yeah | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | *competitors | Sep 16 20:31 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sears#Sears.com_Website_Vulnerability | Sep 16 20:32 |
DaemonFC | my favorite Sears incident | Sep 16 20:32 |
schestowitz | They sold spire back in the days, no? | Sep 16 20:34 |
fewa | The threat of patent Armageddon is a real one | Sep 16 20:34 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] 30 CSS Best Practices for Beginners: http://is.gd/3lEuB | Sep 16 20:34 | |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Freespire PCs? | Sep 16 20:35 |
DaemonFC | yes | Sep 16 20:35 |
DaemonFC | Linspire in sheep's clothing | Sep 16 20:35 |
schestowitz | No | Sep 16 20:35 |
schestowitz | 'Linspire | Sep 16 20:35 |
schestowitz | Around 2006 | Sep 16 20:35 |
schestowitz | Anyway... | Sep 16 20:35 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: They never sold Linspire as such, just Freespire | Sep 16 20:35 |
schestowitz | I know little about Sears. | Sep 16 20:35 |
fewa | It would be suicide for patent law a some patent-based businesses. | Sep 16 20:36 |
fewa | no? | Sep 16 20:36 |
_goblin | schestowitz: No -lol | Sep 16 20:36 |
schestowitz | Spire is dead, long die linspire | Sep 16 20:36 |
tessier | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,541221,00.html?test=latestnews | Sep 16 20:36 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: There was a point where Sears was the Wal-Mart of its time, I mean in size, not crappy quality | Sep 16 20:36 |
tessier | ROFL | Sep 16 20:36 |
schestowitz | Xandros trashed it | Sep 16 20:36 |
schestowitz | THe brand, CNR, everything | Sep 16 20:36 |
fewa | But it could be messy | Sep 16 20:36 |
schestowitz | Turbolinux is in the same hole | Sep 16 20:36 |
DaemonFC | Xandros bought them to shut them down | Sep 16 20:36 |
schestowitz | This leaves the 'good' player in the same | Sep 16 20:37 |
schestowitz | Those who don't pay Microsoft | Sep 16 20:37 |
DaemonFC | probably paid a penny or two on the dollar for them | Sep 16 20:37 |
schestowitz | tessier: yeah, I posted about this in IRC at the time | Sep 16 20:37 |
schestowitz | We had a laugh over it | Sep 16 20:37 |
tessier | I missed it. Funny stuff. | Sep 16 20:37 |
schestowitz | There's similar ebay stuff | Sep 16 20:38 |
schestowitz | And Craigslist | Sep 16 20:38 |
schestowitz | But that's where it's easier to 'inject' | Sep 16 20:38 |
DaemonFC | Craigslist makes it harder for the local cops to arrest prostitutes | Sep 16 20:39 |
DaemonFC | of course they hate anything that makes their job harder | Sep 16 20:40 |
fewa | ? | Sep 16 20:40 |
fewa | o i c | Sep 16 20:40 |
_goblin | anyone see the latest episode of Click? | Sep 16 20:40 |
_goblin | Ill take that as a no then. | Sep 16 20:41 |
schestowitz | Bed sharing 'bad for your health' < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8245578.stm ? | Sep 16 20:41 |
_goblin | there was a new mini-mini netbook from Japan running Ubuntu....not much bigger than an ipod.. | Sep 16 20:41 |
DaemonFC | if they see prostitution going on out in the open, it's easy to arrest people | Sep 16 20:41 |
_goblin | *iphone | Sep 16 20:41 |
schestowitz | _goblin: it's for WIndows users | Sep 16 20:41 |
DaemonFC | if you obfuscate your Craigslist ad and don't do anything outside of private property, it becoems almost impossible to prosecute | Sep 16 20:41 |
schestowitz | Where computer means "Windows" and free means "shareware" | Sep 16 20:42 |
_goblin | I thought it was running Ubuntu.... | Sep 16 20:42 |
schestowitz | Mostly irrelevant to Mac/UNIX and GNU/Linux users | Sep 16 20:42 |
_goblin | I'm sure that bloke said it was running Ubuntu.... | Sep 16 20:42 |
fewa | HAHA, pretty soon they will announce that having sex through a sheet with a hole promotes morality | Sep 16 20:42 |
schestowitz | _goblin: I'm surprised they wrote about the Sharp gadget | Sep 16 20:42 |
DaemonFC | fewa: Only religious people ever split the hair that thin | Sep 16 20:42 |
schestowitz | It does not run the BBC's 'approved' OS | Sep 16 20:42 |
_goblin | true | Sep 16 20:43 |
_goblin | the mentioning of "free software" is often skimmed over. | Sep 16 20:43 |
fewa | "Before the Victorian era it was not uncommon for married couples to sleep apart. In ancient Rome, the marital bed was a place for sexual congress but not for sleeping." | Sep 16 20:43 |
schestowitz | Freedom is bad for you _goblin | Sep 16 20:43 |
fewa | hmm, if that's true its interesting | Sep 16 20:43 |
schestowitz | Consumerism is good | Sep 16 20:43 |
schestowitz | Just STFU and buy buy but | Sep 16 20:43 |
schestowitz | fewa: how do you know how many times they had intercourse? Kid count. | Sep 16 20:44 |
schestowitz | Never mind post-impregnation intercourse | Sep 16 20:44 |
schestowitz | The contraception of abstinence | Sep 16 20:45 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: Contraception is bad, mmmk? | Sep 16 20:45 |
DaemonFC | There always has to be "one more of us than them" | Sep 16 20:45 |
_goblin | What do you think the odds are that Icaza gets the Microsoft Opensource Czar job.....? | Sep 16 20:46 |
DaemonFC | in Islam and Christianity especially | Sep 16 20:46 |
_goblin | I'd say pretty good. | Sep 16 20:46 |
schestowitz | _goblin: would not be shocking | Sep 16 20:46 |
_goblin | Ill tell you who I think has gone relatively silent....Jo Shields.... | Sep 16 20:46 |
schestowitz | It would be good for BN | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | It would help show how close Novell and MS really are | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | _goblin: no, he trolled me today | Sep 16 20:47 |
_goblin | ah....I thought he had turned over a new leaf. | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | "@migueldeicaza Sam Varghese has the journalistic standards of Glenn Schestowitz. Consider a hit piece as a badge of honour." http://twitter.com/directhex/statuses/4030960363 | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | THey take the piss out of Sam | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | Cause of that article | Sep 16 20:47 |
schestowitz | _goblin: he did | Sep 16 20:48 |
schestowitz | He uses that leaf to wipe miguels's behind, IMHO | Sep 16 20:48 |
Diablo-D3 | who the hell is glenn schestowitz? | Sep 16 20:48 |
schestowitz | Rather, who is Glenn? | Sep 16 20:48 |
schestowitz | He compares me to some GLenn. | Sep 16 20:48 |
schestowitz | Wichita Lineman? | Sep 16 20:49 |
schestowitz | Not beck!!!!1 | Sep 16 20:49 |
Diablo-D3 | wow, you've been relegated to entertainer status, schestowitz | Sep 16 20:49 |
Diablo-D3 | oh snap | Sep 16 20:49 |
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.44.88) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 16 20:50 | |
_Hicham_ | Hi everybody ! | Sep 16 20:51 |
_Hicham_ | senior schestowitz : howdy ? | Sep 16 20:51 |
schestowitz | Legal circus: Jurors Required To Sign Promises Not To Google Details Of Case < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090915/0412536196.shtml > | Sep 16 20:51 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: welcome to the family | Sep 16 20:51 |
schestowitz | What will you drink? | Sep 16 20:51 |
schestowitz | We ran out of cyanide, but there's still arsenic | Sep 16 20:52 |
schestowitz | :-p | Sep 16 20:52 |
_Hicham_ | what cyanide or arsenic ? | Sep 16 20:53 |
_Hicham_ | *why ? | Sep 16 20:56 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: joke | Sep 16 20:58 |
*schestowitz hands over non-alcoholic digital beverage to _Hicham_ | Sep 16 20:59 | |
_Hicham_ | plz don't mix it with Mono | Sep 16 20:59 |
_Hicham_ | I am allergic to Mono products | Sep 16 20:59 |
schestowitz | No chopped monkeys inside | Sep 16 21:00 |
schestowitz | May contain bananas though | Sep 16 21:00 |
schestowitz | Yum! | Sep 16 21:00 |
trmanco | http://cdn-www.cracked.com/phpimages/photoshop/1/4/2/3142.jpg?v=1 | Sep 16 21:00 |
schestowitz | trmanco: does this game run on Vista 7? | Sep 16 21:01 |
trmanco | yeah | Sep 16 21:01 |
trmanco | they have solitaire | Sep 16 21:01 |
trmanco | it's a joke | Sep 16 21:01 |
schestowitz | I know. | Sep 16 21:03 |
schestowitz | Fox Paid $60k For Video Footage Of Madoff On A Yacht... And Still Gets Sued For Copyright Infringement < http://www.schwimmerlegal.com/2009/09/60000_for_foota.html > | Sep 16 21:10 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shh!!! HP sneaks Linux in on new laptops: http://is.gd/3lJmb | Sep 16 21:21 | |
schestowitz | More barriers for Microhoo! http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=3983 | Sep 16 21:23 |
trmanco | "Linux players represent about 5% of the QuakeLive population, which is in line with the company's previous releases. Nothing new there, releasing Linux versions has always been a matter of higher code quality, good software architecture, and technical interest for the platform." | Sep 16 21:23 |
trmanco | baam | Sep 16 21:23 |
Diablo-D3 | quakelive sucks, though | Sep 16 21:24 |
Diablo-D3 | if it crashes, it takes my browser with it. | Sep 16 21:24 |
Diablo-D3 | nothx | Sep 16 21:24 |
trmanco | not really | Sep 16 21:24 |
trmanco | http://ttimo.vox.com/library/post/id-software-and-linux.html | Sep 16 21:24 |
trmanco | in my experience it's actually the opposite | Sep 16 21:25 |
trmanco | if the browser crashes it takes away the game with it | Sep 16 21:25 |
trmanco | :-P | Sep 16 21:25 |
Diablo-D3 | trmanco: you do realize I know lord havoc, right? | Sep 16 21:25 |
trmanco | don't know what lord havoc is | Sep 16 21:25 |
*Diablo-D3 faceplams | Sep 16 21:25 | |
Diablo-D3 | hes the guy, among other thing, that ported quakelive to linux | Sep 16 21:26 |
trmanco | that's not his real name, is it? | Sep 16 21:26 |
Diablo-D3 | obviously no. | Sep 16 21:26 |
trmanco | so, and you point is? | Sep 16 21:27 |
Diablo-D3 | my point is dont start a pissing contest with me. | Sep 16 21:27 |
Diablo-D3 | quakelive crashes, it takes my browser with it. this is a known issue. | Sep 16 21:27 |
trmanco | what I was trying to say, is that quakelive hasn't crashed on me | Sep 16 21:28 |
trmanco | so far | Sep 16 21:28 |
trmanco | but the browser already has | Sep 16 21:28 |
Diablo-D3 | ahh | Sep 16 21:28 |
Diablo-D3 | its crashed on me and its reproducable | Sep 16 21:28 |
trmanco | the only problem I have is the stupid crackling sound | Sep 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | trmanco: old new | Sep 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | And yeah, other game makers claim high market share for the GNU | Sep 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | Not surprising | Sep 16 21:29 |
trmanco | I'm sure you have that problem too, no? | Sep 16 21:29 |
Diablo-D3 | trmanco: quakelive is almost the same code as ioquake3, btw | Sep 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | Diablo-D3: be polite, please | Sep 16 21:29 |
schestowitz | I found a job for Miguel.: http://www.linux.com/news/enterprise/biz-enterprise/46125-who-will-fill-sam-ramjis-role-as-linux-and-open-source-leader- | Sep 16 21:32 |
trmanco | Diablo-D3: I wonder if it was tough to port quakelive to linux | Sep 16 21:32 |
Diablo-D3 | trmanco: it wasnt since it basically recycles quake3 code | Sep 16 21:33 |
Diablo-D3 | it was usual nsplugin on linux issues that caused more problems than anything else | Sep 16 21:33 |
trmanco | hmmm | Sep 16 21:33 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @ml2mst NO, don't click the thing! It's a SPAM chain that hit me. I didn't send that message to ANY of my followers. It's a rogue site. | Sep 16 21:37 | |
schestowitz | I listened to FLOSS Weekly ep 1 today | Sep 16 21:37 |
schestowitz | With Cdibona | Sep 16 21:38 |
schestowitz | They speak of game engines there | Sep 16 21:38 |
schestowitz | wallclimber has just mailed me the doc~! | Sep 16 21:38 |
wallclimber | Yes she did! | Sep 16 21:38 |
fewa | schestowitz, how does it send the email? | Sep 16 21:38 |
Diablo-D3 | trmanco: quake3 is well understood by now | Sep 16 21:38 |
schestowitz | fewa: it hooks into my Twitter account | Sep 16 21:38 |
wallclimber | did i mail the right one? | Sep 16 21:39 |
schestowitz | Then it spams everyone that follows me | Sep 16 21:39 |
fewa | ahh spam chain i c | Sep 16 21:39 |
schestowitz | I lost follower cause of those thugs | Sep 16 21:39 |
fewa | deauthorize it | Sep 16 21:39 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: yes | Sep 16 21:39 |
schestowitz | I just got a popup about it, along other messages | Sep 16 21:39 |
schestowitz | I'll leave it unread for another few days | Sep 16 21:39 |
wallclimber | :) | Sep 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | fewa: if someone responds to that spam that was sent 'from my account' that in turn spams all the followers of the next victim | Sep 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | I got hit by a Red Hat guy from Singapore | Sep 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | I don't think he's with Red Hat | Sep 16 21:40 |
schestowitz | This also spammed some Microsoft folks that follow us | Sep 16 21:41 |
schestowitz | Very weird | Sep 16 21:41 |
schestowitz | And they too could fall prey | Sep 16 21:41 |
_goblin | I didnt receive any spam... | Sep 16 21:42 |
schestowitz | _goblin: that's good to hear, but I think the thing hits every follower without exception | Sep 16 21:44 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Google Tops Bing, Yahoo In Bug Battle: http://is.gd/3lLJm | Sep 16 21:44 | |
schestowitz | I know others who were prey | Sep 16 21:44 |
schestowitz | It ruined my morning | Sep 16 21:44 |
fewa | modern chain mail | Sep 16 21:45 |
fewa | doesn't even require someone to forward, it just hijacks your permissions | Sep 16 21:45 |
schestowitz | Yes | Sep 16 21:48 |
schestowitz | I was stunned Twitter allows this | Sep 16 21:48 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz: the new Firefox package in Ubuntu cut out a lot of stupid GNOME dependencies | Sep 16 21:48 |
schestowitz | You click some button, say OK and BANG | Sep 16 21:48 |
schestowitz | Hundreds of people receive the same button trap | Sep 16 21:48 |
DaemonFC | instead of bringing in 96 packages, it now brings in 12 | Sep 16 21:48 |
fewa | You should report it to twitter | Sep 16 21:48 |
fewa | as its lying to people | Sep 16 21:49 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] I Feel the Need for Speed: Linux File System Throughput Performance, Part 1: http://is.gd/3lMe2 | Sep 16 21:49 | |
DaemonFC | Twitter won't do anything about it | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | fewa: it has been reported by manuy | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | But too late | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | Damage was done | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | Despatch was immediately by E-mail, with URL leading to third party | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | wallclimber: thanks a lot! | Sep 16 21:50 |
schestowitz | Great stuff | Sep 16 21:50 |
fewa | Thats why you don't hand away creds to 33rd parties | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | That last one was cited widely. We don't get many comments cause people must sign up. | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | fewa: yeah | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | 32 parties is OK | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | That's where you keep track of thing | Sep 16 21:51 |
fewa | :P | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | 33 is where people become hard to trust | Sep 16 21:51 |
schestowitz | Trilateral Commission.. | Sep 16 21:52 |
schestowitz | BTW... | Sep 16 21:52 |
schestowitz | I was wondering | Sep 16 21:52 |
schestowitz | Where is the wealth of the Rothschild dynasty today? | Sep 16 21:52 |
schestowitz | They are so secretive you can hardly get any information about them | Sep 16 21:52 |
schestowitz | It's like they live in bunkers | Sep 16 21:52 |
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 16 21:52 | |
schestowitz | Tutorial Tuesday: GNOME Hotkeys http://ardchoille42.blogspot.com/2009/09/tutorial-tuesday-gnome-hotkeys.html | Sep 16 21:55 |
DaemonFC | GNOME Hotkey cheat sheet: Alt+ F1, removed because it may confuse users and was generally unhelpful, Alt+F2, removed because it may confuse users, Alt+F3, removed because it may confuse users, Alt+F4, removed because users were reportedly confused about where their open windows went | Sep 16 21:57 |
DaemonFC | We hope this helped, stay tuned for "Encoding MP3s with GNOME" | Sep 16 21:58 |
DaemonFC | "any bitrate you want as long as it's CBR 128" | Sep 16 21:58 |
I wonder what Steve Ballmer and the crew in Redmond are going to do for Software Freedom Day. | Sep 16 22:00 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Just been running Absolute 13.0.1 (slackware) very impressed so far...sysadmin tools "out of the box" are very useful too! #linux #foss | Sep 16 22:01 | |
DaemonFC | twitter: GNOME doesn't belong under the category of software freedom for a number of reasons | Sep 16 22:01 |
wallclimber | twitter, Steve B will probably do a dance and stomp on a netbook | Sep 16 22:02 |
DaemonFC | in a lot of ways, Windows is less constraining to the user than GNOME | Sep 16 22:02 |
heh, I don't follow twitter -> schestowitz: I was stunned Twitter allows this | Sep 16 22:02 | |
DaemonFC | I really wish the major distributions would just throw them under the bus already and work on KDE | Sep 16 22:02 |
Ballmer SMASH netbook | Sep 16 22:03 | |
bbl | Sep 16 22:03 | |
*cubezzz points out anyone can recompile gnome, they can't recompile doze | Sep 16 22:08 | |
cubezzz | plus you can use lame at the command line | Sep 16 22:09 |
cubezzz | e.g. lame audio.wav -b 320 audio.mp3 | Sep 16 22:09 |
schestowitz | I didn't manage to find that Ballmer video that had vanished | Sep 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | I did try looking some more, in vain | Sep 16 22:13 |
schestowitz | I'll do some news links now... | Sep 16 22:14 |
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DaemonFC | cubezzz: You can use LAME on the command line on any system | Sep 16 22:21 |
DaemonFC | it's a fallback for a failed GUI in GNOME | Sep 16 22:21 |
_goblin | Anyone here used Absolute ...? Very impressive distro...slackware derived... | Sep 16 22:23 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Monty still hasn't printed my replies :( http://bit.ly/SNC82 #codeplex #foss | Sep 16 22:23 | |
DaemonFC | http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/210813 | Sep 16 22:24 |
DaemonFC | lmao | Sep 16 22:24 |
schestowitz | _goblin: it looks OK | Sep 16 22:26 |
schestowitz | Nothing exciting though. Just Slack* | Sep 16 22:26 |
_goblin | Just slack...blasphemy I tell you......burn him!.....witch! | Sep 16 22:27 |
schestowitz | Meh. | Sep 16 22:27 |
_goblin | its got a nice set of benchmarks via Hardinfo 0.5.1 | Sep 16 22:28 |
_goblin | very handy | Sep 16 22:28 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Windows #Developer Moves to #GNU #Linux and Loves It http://anteru.net/2009/09/14/604/ | Sep 16 22:29 | |
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_goblin | Ive found a good analysis of Codeplex....highlighted by a Microsoft twitterer.....shame that the good analysis has been written by a Microsoft MVP...... | Sep 16 22:30 |
_goblin | so it seems that the only ones who praise it are those locked into MS in some way........surprise surprise. | Sep 16 22:30 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Information About Massive Win for #Linux at #HP http://bit.ly/IT0M5 | Sep 16 22:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LCA2010 (linux.conf.au) Schedule is Published http://www.lca2010.org.nz/media/news/95 | Sep 16 22:34 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Desktops Suitable for Many, Including Large Businesses http://bit.ly/b56vx http://bit.ly/fZgkt | Sep 16 22:39 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Torvalds Explains #EFI and #BIOS http://bit.ly/2E11tr #linux | Sep 16 22:43 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mandriva to be at IT Event #Netbook World Summit 2009 ( #Paris ) http://bit.ly/BdcuW | Sep 16 22:51 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oracle Delivers Another #RedHat Bar #Trademarks, #BerkeleyDB Update http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/145415 http://bit.ly/ ... | Sep 16 22:54 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #Launchpad Changes, New Resources for Help and #Artwork http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1908 http://bit.ly/J8Lsu http://bit.ly/a6qdt | Sep 16 22:56 | |
schestowitz | _goblin: indeed | Sep 16 22:57 |
schestowitz | Self gratification | Sep 16 22:58 |
DaemonFC | when I am king, Christian youth groups will be forced to eat all remaining purity rings | Sep 16 23:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Linux #Platform for Phones: #Donut http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1533721/android | Sep 16 23:07 | |
_goblin | gn | Sep 16 23:08 |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Crunchbang Goes for the #Sub-notebooks http://bit.ly/360fzb | Sep 16 23:09 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] The UNIX Guru`s view of Sex: unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; umount; sleep | Sep 16 23:12 | |
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Go Insane with #WIPO http://techdirt.com/articles/20090915/0437396200.shtml #moneyispower #corruption | Sep 16 23:25 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - And The Royal Mail Staff Want Public Sympathy? http://tinyurl.com/qnxfjs | Sep 16 23:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Web #Censorship in #Denmark http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8258473.stm | Sep 16 23:31 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #gNewSense Tosses #Mono to the #Bitbucket http://bit.ly/KcC0P | Sep 16 23:33 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Pulls the Plug on #Windows #Server 2003 SPs http://bit.ly/x6tky | Sep 16 23:35 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Biotech stocks plummet in wake of public health policies that favor humans http://notnews.today.com/?p=647 | Sep 16 23:49 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Warning: You have moved the mouse. Windows will reboot now to make the change permanent | Sep 16 23:59 |
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