| schestowitz | roy@baine:~$ uptime | Sep 21 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | roy@baine:~$ uptime | Sep 21 00:00 |
| schestowitz | 23:19:31 up 237 days, 12:20, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.03 | Sep 21 00:00 |
| schestowitz | 23:19:31 up 237 days, 12:20, 2 users, load average: 0.02, 0.05, 0.03 | Sep 21 00:00 |
| schestowitz | http://sinaisix.blogspot.com/2009/09/re-please-reinstate-os-wars.html | Sep 21 00:02 |
| schestowitz | http://sinaisix.blogspot.com/2009/09/re-please-reinstate-os-wars.html | Sep 21 00:02 |
| Tcl interface unloaded | Sep 21 00:07 | |
| Python interface unloaded | Sep 21 00:07 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 00:07:48 2009 | ||
| *schestowitz_ has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 21 00:07 | |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 00:08:38 2009 | ||
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Sep 21 00:08 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Sep 21 00:08 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009 | Sep 21 00:08 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Sep 21 00:08 | |
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| schestowitz | http://xkcd.com/638/ | Sep 21 00:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/modifying_the_c.html | Sep 21 00:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] Flan is yummy. | Sep 21 00:23 | |
| schestowitz | gn | Sep 21 00:23 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Why Your Project Should Use Mibbit http://tinyurl.com/llhymd | Sep 21 00:26 | |
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| zilog | causality not reason. | Sep 21 00:48 |
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| trmanco | oh yeah | Sep 21 00:58 |
| trmanco | it worked :D | Sep 21 00:58 |
| trmanco | :D | Sep 21 00:58 |
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| trmanco | enough for today... | Sep 21 01:01 |
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| zilog | Roy, Did you read that article you linked too ?? http://sinaisix.blogspot.com/2009/09/re-please-reinstate-os-wars.html | Sep 21 01:10 |
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| seller_liar | I was thinking... | Sep 21 01:49 |
| seller_liar | The "Richard" guy is a troll | Sep 21 01:49 |
| seller_liar | in mono-nono.com | Sep 21 01:49 |
| about time -> schestowitz sets ban on DaemonFC!*@* | Sep 21 01:52 | |
| thanks, Roy. | Sep 21 01:52 | |
| ThistleWeb | again? | Sep 21 01:52 |
| ThistleWeb | he'll lift the ban in an hour | Sep 21 01:52 |
| I was looking at the log today to see how bad it was. Racism and other mindless stuff. | Sep 21 01:52 | |
| oh no, you didn't -> *schestowitz removes ban on DaemonFC!*@* | Sep 21 01:53 | |
| ThistleWeb | he's glued in, he's like a puppy who will always piss on the carpet because he knows he will get away with it | Sep 21 01:55 |
| ThistleWeb | kinda makes you wonder why he gets special treatment | Sep 21 01:55 |
| sigh, bbl. | Sep 21 01:56 | |
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| ThistleWeb | unless his presence is used as a contrast for the rest, where you see what a tube he is, makes the rest look much more normal by comparison | Sep 21 02:00 |
| cubezzz | people shouldn't argue just for the sake of arguing | Sep 21 02:06 |
| cubezzz | this may be of some interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Boycott | Sep 21 02:09 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Watching "The Commitments" for the first time in years | Sep 21 03:24 | |
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| bwa, ha ha. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/20/209211/Forkable-Linux-Radio-Ad-Now-On-the-Air-In-Texas | Sep 21 05:20 | |
| _Hicham_ | wb twitter my friend | Sep 21 05:30 |
| _Hicham_ | howdy ? | Sep 21 05:30 |
| fine, thank you. | Sep 21 05:30 | |
| Diablo-D3 | see | Sep 21 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im waiting for the techno remix of the ad | Sep 21 05:31 |
| _Hicham_ | Diablo-D3 : which ad ? | Sep 21 05:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/09/20/209211/Forkable-Linux-Radio-Ad-Now-On-the-Air-In-Texas | Sep 21 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | I assume you have twitter on ignore | Sep 21 05:32 |
| the ads broadcast on the Digital Goddess show. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Komando | Sep 21 05:35 | |
| har har. | Sep 21 05:35 | |
| "Digital Goddess" will reveal they mysteries and beauty of Winblows. pththtfit. | Sep 21 05:36 | |
| Fixed by Linux is looking for business. That's very cool. | Sep 21 05:46 | |
| off he goes. | Sep 21 05:46 | |
| Windows 7 and Vista have given him a nice fat welcome. | Sep 21 05:47 | |
| Time to confess all your dirty money, http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=adXVfTKWkz9Q | Sep 21 05:51 | |
| like any of the fat cats will do that. | Sep 21 05:51 | |
| an American Taliban story http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/blumenthal | Sep 21 06:01 | |
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| I'm amazed to find yet another company that has sucked down the .NET madness. | Sep 21 07:04 | |
| another medical equipment company that should know better than to use a silly RAD framework like .NET | Sep 21 07:04 | |
| just for fun, I'm torturing a wine install with the Windows version of mono. | Sep 21 07:06 | |
| it was a 73 MB download that is blossoming to something much larger. | Sep 21 07:06 | |
| SWF webcontrol? wtf? | Sep 21 07:07 | |
| Diablo-D3 | .net sucks dick anyhow | Sep 21 07:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | they should use java | Sep 21 07:08 |
| _Hicham_ | I am using Java | Sep 21 07:13 |
| stupid junk still spits out MFC errors. | Sep 21 07:13 | |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : what are u doing ? | Sep 21 07:14 |
| _Hicham_ | using Visual Studio ? | Sep 21 07:14 |
| nah, not that bad. | Sep 21 07:14 | |
| I thought I'd have a look at some other program for work. No license or CD, just a look. Not a good idea. | Sep 21 07:14 | |
| waste of time, like most Windows things. | Sep 21 07:15 | |
| I was hoping this software was old school, single directory install. What I found was .NET nightmare. | Sep 21 07:15 | |
| Terminal. | Sep 21 07:15 | |
| I'm nuking the damn thing. | Sep 21 07:15 | |
| Taking off, to nuke it from orbit. | Sep 21 07:16 | |
| _Hicham_ | one of the annoying things in .NET is that u have to have different versions of the framework | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | to run different programs | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | let say | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET 2.0 | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | and .NET 2.5 | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET 3.0 | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | .NET 3.1 | Sep 21 07:17 |
| _Hicham_ | all of that for a bunch of programs | Sep 21 07:18 |
| _Hicham_ | actually it is worse that msvcrt.dll | Sep 21 07:18 |
| one of the error messages was, "install the Windows version of Mono to run .NET executables" what a bad piece of advice that was. | Sep 21 07:19 | |
| Oh God, you have to have more than one of them? I'm sorry I looked at .NET. | Sep 21 07:20 | |
| _Hicham_ | what software was that ? | Sep 21 07:20 |
| You don't want to know! | Sep 21 07:20 | |
| _Hicham_ | i want to know | Sep 21 07:21 |
| it's gone | Sep 21 07:21 | |
| _Hicham_ | actually, there are interesting .NET stuff in Windows | Sep 21 07:21 |
| _Hicham_ | like NHC | Sep 21 07:21 |
| _Hicham_ | Notebook Hardware Control | Sep 21 07:21 |
| _Hicham_ | it is very useful | Sep 21 07:22 |
| Sounds like the kind of Notebook I'd want to take a hammer to. No, thanks. | Sep 21 07:22 | |
| Why would you ever want a piece of hardware that's dependent on a MFC derivative like .NET? Especially after you just described how you have to have multiple instances of the thing to make it work. | Sep 21 07:23 | |
| _Hicham_ | it is not hardware | Sep 21 07:24 |
| _Hicham_ | NHC monitors ur hardware | Sep 21 07:24 |
| _Hicham_ | it is just software | Sep 21 07:24 |
| So, if I want to "monitor" my hardware, I need .NET hell? Hammer time! | Sep 21 07:25 | |
| zilog | oh no a .Netmere !! | Sep 21 07:32 |
| _Hicham_ | on linux, no | Sep 21 07:35 |
| _Hicham_ | we have libsensors | Sep 21 07:35 |
| _Hicham_ | twitter : which windows version are u using ? | Sep 21 07:41 |
| wine :) | Sep 21 07:42 | |
| _Hicham_ | for which software ? | Sep 21 07:43 |
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| _Hicham_ | twitter : why u don't wanna answer ? | Sep 21 07:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Real Reasons to Move to #GNU #Linux on the #Desktop http://bit.ly/4w7sx3 http://bit.ly/2WfOyZ with Applicationsns-learned-from-using-li ... | Sep 21 07:58 | |
| _Hicham_ | good morning don schestowitz | Sep 21 08:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Real-Time Earth #Wallpaper Application for #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/BH5jn | Sep 21 08:05 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux #Games: A Look at #Quake Live http://bit.ly/XVrkh | Sep 21 08:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GIMP 2.8 Gets More Familiar/Friendly to Users http://bit.ly/BxOpu | Sep 21 08:14 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #GNU #Linux Diversity Prevails (and It's a Good Thing) http://bit.ly/Bzjvj http://bit.ly/SW4f9 | Sep 21 08:16 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mandriva Linux 2010 Moves a Step Closer to Final Release http://bit.ly/166XX0 Great distro, maybe the best | Sep 21 08:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Father of #PuppyLinux (Barry Kauler) is Back! http://bit.ly/49rbpB | Sep 21 08:20 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SAMLinux 2009 Reviewed http://danlynch.org/blog/2009/09/sam2009/ | Sep 21 08:21 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Ultimate #Linux Boot CD in Review http://bit.ly/Y5ygU | Sep 21 08:22 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zenwalk Turns to Two Distributions: #Salix OS and #Zenwalk http://bit.ly/YROJw | Sep 21 08:24 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Debian Derivative Mepis 8.0.10 Still Offers KDE 3.5 | Sep 21 08:29 | |
| DaemonFC | change the wallpaper and it's a new distro | Sep 21 08:29 |
| DaemonFC | ho hum | Sep 21 08:29 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora Leader Promotes Free Software http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/092009/09192009/494903 | Sep 21 08:31 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Very Exciting Things Coming to #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 9.10 ( #KarmicKoala ) http://www.nillabyte.com/blog.php?b=248 | Sep 21 08:33 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Palm 's #Linux #Smartphone Receives High Marks for Software http://bit.ly/WVONk | Sep 21 08:42 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OLPC Deployed in #Nigeria with #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/1RrpfY http://bit.ly/G8Nuc | Sep 21 08:48 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Has Won! http://bit.ly/2c2MrP | Sep 21 08:49 | |
| oiaohm | Not quite yet Open source has not won apple and MS are still standing. | Sep 21 08:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Rackspace and #MTV Networks Use #FreeSoftware http://bit.ly/sjxtZ http://bit.ly/r71qb | Sep 21 08:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #EuropeanUnion Releases Guide to Increase #FreeSoftware Adoption http://bit.ly/8EX0Y http://bit.ly/Yc22f | Sep 21 09:03 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #SoftwareFreedomDay a Great Success, Receives a Lot of Coverage http://bit.ly/FMpRs http://bit.ly/ZIN6Z http://bit.ly/q1gXi http://bit. ... | Sep 21 09:06 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreedomWorks Exposed as #AstroTurfing Scam http://www.prwatch.org/node/8564 http://bit.ly/3lqFEx | Sep 21 09:11 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of #Haiku alpha http://bit.ly/I6YdS | Sep 21 09:12 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: depends on whether you look at OSes and which sectors | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | And what is "Won"? | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | 50%? | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | 90%? | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | What does mixture count as? | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | How does APache on the Web treated? | Sep 21 09:16 |
| schestowitz | The momentum is with Free software though | Sep 21 09:17 |
| schestowitz | Not many startups choose proprietary stacks | Sep 21 09:17 |
| schestowitz | Even few seem to choose to be all non-Free | Sep 21 09:17 |
| schestowitz | Market dynamics | Sep 21 09:17 |
| oiaohm | Won is that we don't have people still out there trying to kill Open Source schestowitz | Sep 21 09:19 |
| oiaohm | We are not quite there but we are getting there. | Sep 21 09:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Switched to swfdec on my desktop because Adobe Flash is just so apallingly crashy and unreliable on 64-bit. | Sep 21 09:20 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: SCO is almost dead, Sun will fold into Oracle which is in OIN (unlike SUN), and Microsoft weakens every day | Sep 21 09:23 |
| amarsh04 | how much was Sun funding Postgresql? | Sep 21 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Not much amarsh04 | Sep 21 09:27 |
| oiaohm | Enterpisedb was funding Postgresql a lot more. | Sep 21 09:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | oin? | Sep 21 09:28 |
| amarsh04 | ok... I think it is "interesting" that MS funded Apple to give the pretense of an open competitive market then Apple had runaway success with iPod and iPhone | Sep 21 09:28 |
| amarsh04 | back later | Sep 21 09:29 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: Open Inventors Network. The patent arm of Open Source. | Sep 21 09:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: are you claiming Sun is not open source? | Sep 21 09:30 |
| zilog | SUN is a mix of open and proprietary source, | Sep 21 09:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | so is oracle | Sep 21 09:33 |
| zilog | yes, and IBM, canicial.. | Sep 21 09:34 |
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| oiaohm_ | Diablo-D3: sun has always had a very vague open source policy. Not constant. | Sep 21 10:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | I think they've changed around though | Sep 21 10:22 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle has had very constant policy. If product started open source it stays that way. | Sep 21 10:23 |
| MinceR | i wonder if oracle will be corrupted by access to slowlaris | Sep 21 10:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Solarias particular work loads is not slow. | Sep 21 10:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot can still be got from it. I would love to see oracle put solarias under a Linux kernel friendly licence. | Sep 21 10:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Also Oracle was one of the first to declare that they would never attack an open source project. | Sep 21 10:25 |
| MinceR | so you're saying that there's a workload under which slowlaris isn't slow? :> | Sep 21 10:26 |
| oiaohm_ | Solarias handles virtualisation multi servers on one better than Linux does still MinceR | Sep 21 10:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Yes that kind of work load its not slow. | Sep 21 10:27 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically we want there zone/container management system | Sep 21 10:27 |
| MinceR | what i'm wondering about is whether oracle will still want to support linux once they own slowlaris. | Sep 21 10:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle is not foolish. | Sep 21 10:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Oracle supports running on windows still MinceR. | Sep 21 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | solaris makes me unhappy | Sep 21 10:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Its where the money is rules Oracle. | Sep 21 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | opensolaris could be so much | Sep 21 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it isnt | Sep 21 10:29 |
| MinceR | windows is an entirely different issue. | Sep 21 10:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Not really windows for database servers has a smaller percentage than solarias. | Sep 21 10:30 |
| MinceR | (one i don't really care about, btw :> ) | Sep 21 10:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Orcale will support what ever gets them sales. | Sep 21 10:30 |
| oiaohm_ | As long as linux is getting them sales it will be supported. | Sep 21 10:30 |
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| MinceR | http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090908164954318 | Sep 21 10:42 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft #Cheats and #Bribes Again to Distort the Reality Regarding #Vista7 http://bit.ly/42qg1u | Sep 21 12:01 | |
| oiaohm_ | http://www.osnews.com/story/22198/EFI-X_Violates_LGPL_Uses_Community_Code_without_Attribution HMM | Sep 21 12:02 |
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| Diablo-D3 | bwhahahahahaha | Sep 21 12:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh wow I lol'd | Sep 21 12:08 |
| *Diablo-D3 knew what efi-x was all along | Sep 21 12:08 | |
| Diablo-D3 | its no different than the grub efi hack that loads an efi emulator on non-efi machines to boot efi using OSen | Sep 21 12:09 |
| MinceR | running osx is its own punishment | Sep 21 12:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Companies still think they can use LGPL and GPL code and not get found ount. | Sep 21 12:11 |
| oiaohm_ | ount/out | Sep 21 12:11 |
| DaemonFC | they can in some cases | Sep 21 12:20 |
| DaemonFC | as long as they don't make it obvious | Sep 21 12:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | the stupid part is | Sep 21 12:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | they can just legally comply with it to begin with | Sep 21 12:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | ITS FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE | Sep 21 12:20 |
| mib_3HAL | if they dont modify the code | Sep 21 12:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | mib_3HAL: they probably arent anyhow | Sep 21 12:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, they're using libraries in some cases | Sep 21 12:21 |
| oiaohm_ | DaemonFC its like rolling a dice no matter how not obvious it is sooner or latter someone will spot it. | Sep 21 12:22 |
| oiaohm_ | Normally due to bugs that only own to the GPL or LGPL code. | Sep 21 12:22 |
| oiaohm_ | Once you get spotted deeper investagations can be done. | Sep 21 12:23 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm_, It's easy to subvert the GPL | Sep 21 12:24 |
| DaemonFC | it always will be no matter what they do to it | Sep 21 12:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Maybe DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:24 |
| DaemonFC | FSF has become so frustrated and so out to punish every bad guy out there that they're willing to do 10 times as much damage to legitimate users | Sep 21 12:24 |
| oiaohm_ | scumvm was a classic example. | Sep 21 12:24 |
| DaemonFC | and potential legitimate users | Sep 21 12:25 |
| oiaohm_ | It was found to be using wrong due to a rendering glitch. | Sep 21 12:25 |
| DaemonFC | they're out of touch, they really haven't ever been anything but out of touch | Sep 21 12:25 |
| DaemonFC | trying to use software licenses to manipulate the hardware of the end user | Sep 21 12:25 |
| DaemonFC | it's not going to get any important people using their new license | Sep 21 12:26 |
| oiaohm_ | Funny enough FSF gives abuses warnings. | Sep 21 12:26 |
| DaemonFC | it will cause infighting, holdouts on GPL 2, and companies that get scared and leave | Sep 21 12:26 |
| oiaohm_ | And a chance to correct. | Sep 21 12:26 |
| DaemonFC | The FSFAA | Sep 21 12:26 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Sep 21 12:26 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: stop spreading that old bullshit already | Sep 21 12:26 |
| MinceR | it has always been and still is bullshit | Sep 21 12:26 |
| DaemonFC | They make blanket and baseless accusations of theft | Sep 21 12:27 |
| MinceR | and you've been called on it already | Sep 21 12:27 |
| oiaohm_ | GPL licence set is one of the most used because companies trust it. | Sep 21 12:27 |
| DaemonFC | they tried calling Theo de Raadt a thief on an open mailing list | Sep 21 12:27 |
| DaemonFC | they're a bunch of pansies | Sep 21 12:27 |
| DaemonFC | candy assed morons | Sep 21 12:27 |
| oiaohm_ | More that they trust GPL to give them a chance to protect themselves if another company working on code trys to screw them over. | Sep 21 12:27 |
| DaemonFC | they don't do anything politely or subtly or assuming good intentions | Sep 21 12:27 |
| DaemonFC | they're assholes | Sep 21 12:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | [07:27:26] <oiaohm_> It was found to be using wrong due to a rendering glitch. | Sep 21 12:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | ? | Sep 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm_ | A graphic was rendered wrong. | Sep 21 12:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | what was the problem? | Sep 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm_ | The error was particular to a version of the engine. | Sep 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm_ | That was GPL. | Sep 21 12:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I mean, what are you talking about, this sounds interesting | Sep 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm_ | So company was found out using code against licence. Game is no longer on sale. | Sep 21 12:28 |
| DaemonFC | oiaohm_, When's the last time you saw a notice of infringement on BSD licensed software? | Sep 21 12:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: WOW | Sep 21 12:29 |
| DaemonFC | the fact that FSF sends out letters like the RIAA proves GPL software is not free as in freedom | Sep 21 12:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: best bug ever | Sep 21 12:29 |
| oiaohm_ | I have see companies change from BSD because others working on the BSD have screwed them over. | Sep 21 12:29 |
| oiaohm_ | To the point there products were no longer compadible DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:29 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot more damaging then any suit could be. | Sep 21 12:29 |
| DaemonFC | GPL is holding Linux back at least as much as it is "protecting it" | Sep 21 12:30 |
| oiaohm_ | GPL has powered Linux. | Sep 21 12:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: yes, but things _do_ change | Sep 21 12:30 |
| oiaohm_ | BSD OS's are older. | Sep 21 12:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is why I don't quite entirely like the GPL | Sep 21 12:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | it sometimes causes problems because the FSF is a rabid dog | Sep 21 12:30 |
| DaemonFC | GPL is like this parasite that had to be attached in order to legally grab some FSF libraries and such | Sep 21 12:30 |
| oiaohm_ | BSD OS's should be at least 10 years ahead of Linux in features unless something is wrong. DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:31 |
| DaemonFC | incompatible "free software" licenses cause massive duplication of effort because most "free software" licenses are not really free as in freedom | Sep 21 12:31 |
| oiaohm_ | Guess what is wrong DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:31 |
| DaemonFC | GPL included | Sep 21 12:31 |
| oiaohm_ | BSD has no requirement that you cannot screw others over. | Sep 21 12:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm actually considering writing all future code as BSD | Sep 21 12:31 |
| oiaohm_ | So BSD has being forked more times than Linux. | Sep 21 12:31 |
| DaemonFC | no it hasn't | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Just the forks of BSD have stayed mostly closed source. | Sep 21 12:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | the problem with BSD is they should have used git | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Yes it has DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:32 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing stopping anyone from forking Linux | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | There are thousands of devices out there with custom BSD cores. | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | No source code DaemonFC | Sep 21 12:32 |
| DaemonFC | GPL doesn't protect against forks | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | GPL means the fork must provide up its source code. | Sep 21 12:32 |
| oiaohm_ | So it can be merged back in. | Sep 21 12:33 |
| mib_3HAL | like OSX | Sep 21 12:33 |
| oiaohm_ | This is what happens with the Linux kernel. | Sep 21 12:33 |
| benJIman | Only if the fork is distributed . | Sep 21 12:33 |
| oiaohm_ | There are teams out there that hunt down distributioned forks of Linux. | Sep 21 12:33 |
| oiaohm_ | Seeking to merge any good feature back in. | Sep 21 12:33 |
| benJIman | DaemonFC: Freedom to fork is pretty fundamental to free software. | Sep 21 12:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | ironic since Im actually considering forking linux | Sep 21 12:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | to merge the best features back in | Sep 21 12:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Forking is not bad. When the forks cannot be merged back in that is where the development problem comes. | Sep 21 12:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | the kernel is a fucking mess thanks to linus | Sep 21 12:34 |
| mib_3HAL | you can folk with BSD, Apache, Public Domain and all the other "FREE" licenses | Sep 21 12:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Its the merge back in part that is important to speed of development mib_3HAL | Sep 21 12:35 |
| mib_3HAL | Diablo-D3 agreed | Sep 21 12:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Linux did not start with a offical design. | Sep 21 12:35 |
| MinceR | mutex finally awakes | Sep 21 12:36 |
| oiaohm_ | Its kinda growing one. | Sep 21 12:36 |
| DaemonFC | http://opendevice.blogspot.com/2007/06/best-gnu-gpl-vs-bsd-comparison-ever.html | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm_ | Compared to linux kernel 2 years ago today. The internal design of it is a lot cleaner. | Sep 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm_ | For business where you need compadibly between yours and other users of the same code base. GPL or like is one of the best open source licences. | Sep 21 12:40 |
| oiaohm_ | Since in case of compadiblity issues you can always get the code of the others shiped products. | Sep 21 12:40 |
| oiaohm_ | This is where BSD fails are a useable licence. | Sep 21 12:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Now if you are building something were compadiblity with other version is not important then you might consider BSD. | Sep 21 12:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Note compadiblity includes stuff like hardware compadiblity. | Sep 21 12:42 |
| oiaohm_ | Diablo-D3 remember Linus statement controlling developers is like herding a pack of cats. it takes ages to get them pointing in the right directions. | Sep 21 12:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but he pushes out the ones with the good ideas | Sep 21 12:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | he keeps the idiot faggots who are paid by red hat and ibm and that shit | Sep 21 12:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | the core development team is just a bunch of posers | Sep 21 12:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Wrong | Sep 21 12:44 |
| oiaohm_ | Particular people have been forced out because they are tunneled visioned. | Sep 21 12:45 |
| oiaohm_ | Disregarding things like fork bombs and not providing a replacement solution to problem that works is not what you call good development. | Sep 21 12:46 |
| oiaohm_ | If something suxs and is in your way you need to find why it there so you can remove it. | Sep 21 12:46 |
| oiaohm_ | Without causing other future issues. | Sep 21 12:46 |
| oiaohm_ | Long term thinking is required for maintainers. | Sep 21 12:47 |
| oiaohm_ | Also no matter how much a particular developer insults one of the core maintainers the core maintainer cannot ignore the persons alterations. | Sep 21 12:48 |
| MinceR | the ones who got pushed out could get together and make a fork | Sep 21 12:48 |
| oiaohm_ | They have at times in the case of the RT tree they have been accepted back into the core after a few years they learnt from there own problems why there changes were being refused. | Sep 21 12:48 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically with time most of the forced out ones learn why there code was being rejected and design solutions to problems. | Sep 21 12:49 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: yes, and, ironically, linus's changes need to be rejected until he stops with the tunnel vision | Sep 21 12:50 |
| oiaohm_ | CK is just one of the newest forced out and has not really learnt lesson yet. | Sep 21 12:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | he's basically ignoring 99% of linux machines (desktops, servers, embedded) just to focus on machines that dont really exist | Sep 21 12:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: not at all | Sep 21 12:50 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Breaks the #Law Again for the Sake of #Office and Manages to Get Away with It http://bit.ly/2npa1r | Sep 21 12:50 | |
| Diablo-D3 | atm ck has a scheduler that is much faster, efficient, and consistent than CFS | Sep 21 12:51 |
| oiaohm_ | And crashable Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 12:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | desktops have lower latency and are smoother, servers have higher io throughput and lower request latency | Sep 21 12:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: not exactly | Sep 21 12:51 |
| oiaohm_ | CK never would think about fixing the fork bomb issue. | Sep 21 12:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | _what_ fork bomb issue? | Sep 21 12:51 |
| oiaohm_ | So he hit a brick wall. | Sep 21 12:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | there is no fork bomb issue on BFS | Sep 21 12:51 |
| oiaohm_ | There is. | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | uh, what? | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS has a severe fork bomb issue | Sep 21 12:52 |
| oiaohm_ | You are just CK all over again. | Sep 21 12:52 |
| oiaohm_ | Too blind to see it. | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | blind to see _what_? | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wrote a test to see how BFS would handle thousands of threads | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS handles it, CFS doesnt | Sep 21 12:52 |
| oiaohm_ | You want to be 100 percent fair with time giving right. | Sep 21 12:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | X in CFS stops responding for seconds at a time | Sep 21 12:53 |
| oiaohm_ | So massive numbers of processes critical things time out. | Sep 21 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | under BFS _no_ task stops for seconds at a time | Sep 21 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: wrong | Sep 21 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does not ensure fairness | Sep 21 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS does | Sep 21 12:53 |
| oiaohm_ | ensuring fairness withotu a bias sooner or latter system can be made fail. | Sep 21 12:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: wrong | Sep 21 12:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Not wrong. | Sep 21 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | due to the fact CFS does not account for time used correctly or accurately | Sep 21 12:54 |
| oiaohm_ | I locked every user out of a HP UX system because of it. | Sep 21 12:54 |
| oiaohm_ | Due to the login system timing out. | Sep 21 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does _not_ account correctly/accurately | Sep 21 12:54 |
| oiaohm_ | I don't say CFS does not have glitches. | Sep 21 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | which means it has no clue how long a task has been running | Sep 21 12:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS's glitches are what makes it run like shit | Sep 21 12:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | its completely unsuitable for desktops and its marginally unsuitable for most serving tasks | Sep 21 12:55 |
| oiaohm_ | BFS glitch is what makes it a sitting duck. | Sep 21 12:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS is experimental | Sep 21 12:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Something in the middle is needed. | Sep 21 12:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | its an actual bug that causes BFS to cause weird things to lock up | Sep 21 12:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | it has nothing to do with the task of scheduling | Sep 21 12:56 |
| oiaohm_ | LOL | Sep 21 12:56 |
| oiaohm_ | Timing. | Sep 21 12:56 |
| oiaohm_ | That is the first sign of the major crunch up I am talking about. | Sep 21 12:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope, its a race bug that BFS is exposing in how affined tasks work during boot | Sep 21 12:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | first major sign of... experimental code? | Sep 21 12:56 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not sure what you're talking about, oiaohm_ | Sep 21 12:57 |
| oiaohm_ | It is not exacty race. | Sep 21 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | it actually is a race bug | Sep 21 12:57 |
| oiaohm_ | Particular events have time windows that they must be processed in for hardware. | Sep 21 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: yup | Sep 21 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | the problem is CFS doesn't trigger it | Sep 21 12:57 |
| oiaohm_ | If you delay longer than the time window you die. | Sep 21 12:57 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: also | Sep 21 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | theres a small problem in your theory | Sep 21 12:58 |
| oiaohm_ | A normal race is if you do task out of order. | Sep 21 12:58 |
| oiaohm_ | Not take too long. | Sep 21 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS "respects" no preempt barriers | Sep 21 12:58 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically BFS takes too long in places. | Sep 21 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | in the sense that the scheduler is not called when a driver is within a barrier | Sep 21 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: nope, not at all | Sep 21 12:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS cannot be ran in one of those situations | Sep 21 12:58 |
| oiaohm_ | It does. | Sep 21 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is why the preempt barrier exists, so you cannot reschedule until it has completed | Sep 21 12:59 |
| oiaohm_ | Fairness is killing you. | Sep 21 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: please stop talking out of your ass | Sep 21 12:59 |
| oiaohm_ | There are getting less and less preempt barriers. | Sep 21 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | there are enough FUD spewing trolls in #bc, we dont need more | Sep 21 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, we are getting less of those, and if they removed the wrong one, BFS will crush one of those drivers | Sep 21 12:59 |
| Diablo-D3 | the problem, currently, has been isolated that something in boot before init starts can't handle BFS being so fast | Sep 21 13:00 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet why does CFS live. | Sep 21 13:00 |
| oiaohm_ | CFS is not what you call fair. | Sep 21 13:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you increase the maximum time slice in BFS, it magically goes away | Sep 21 13:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Of course. | Sep 21 13:01 |
| oiaohm_ | You no longer cause time outs. | Sep 21 13:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, just the opposite | Sep 21 13:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Part way threw operations. | Sep 21 13:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you were right, you'd take much longer timeouts | Sep 21 13:01 |
| oiaohm_ | Note part way threw operations. | Sep 21 13:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | since BFS could not get back to the task in time | Sep 21 13:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | but this is why we have barriers | Sep 21 13:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | tasks must complete | Sep 21 13:02 |
| oiaohm_ | Swaping away from theads is what is causing the issue. | Sep 21 13:02 |
| oiaohm_ | And not returning to the thread in time. | Sep 21 13:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: nope, since BFS cannot schedule out barriered processes | Sep 21 13:02 |
| oiaohm_ | You can have BFS stuff up appache the same kind of way with packet generation. | Sep 21 13:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | nope, I can't | Sep 21 13:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | I've tried | Sep 21 13:03 |
| oiaohm_ | There are times the windows need to be longer. | Sep 21 13:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | I _can_ with CFS | Sep 21 13:03 |
| oiaohm_ | It can Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS is much much slower than BFS is at badly designed httpds like apache | Sep 21 13:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS is extremely hard to perform ddos attacks against in situations like this | Sep 21 13:03 |
| oiaohm_ | CFS is slower with appache due to 2 major reasons. One is the memory allocations that is fixed in tip. | Sep 21 13:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | anyhow, oiaohm_, if you think you've found a bug somewhere in linux that BFS exposes, report it | Sep 21 13:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | the kernel must be fixed | Sep 21 13:04 |
| oiaohm_ | Are you trying BFS with tip? | Sep 21 13:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | not yet | Sep 21 13:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't think BFS will patch cleanly to tip | Sep 21 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | That is why we are majorally different. | Sep 21 13:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 21 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Lot of speed ups BFS had over CFS are gone. | Sep 21 13:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | you do realize any change to slab will also increase BFS's speed, right? | Sep 21 13:05 |
| oiaohm_ | Not as much as CFS | Sep 21 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is the same bullshit mingo was trying to spew before he got caught | Sep 21 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | he tried to benchmark tip against a BFS built against .31 | Sep 21 13:06 |
| oiaohm_ | BFS faster switching was causing the pages to be marked as active. | Sep 21 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: btw, you do realize what a deadlining scheduler is, right? | Sep 21 13:06 |
| oiaohm_ | So not dumped. | Sep 21 13:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is why CFS isn't fair, it doesn't keep track of when a task was last run | Sep 21 13:06 |
| oiaohm_ | Do you under stand the issue with deadline. | Sep 21 13:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but do you? | Sep 21 13:07 |
| oiaohm_ | Don't make me laugh. | Sep 21 13:07 |
| oiaohm_ | You don't. | Sep 21 13:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | I do, and I find the tradeoff acceptabel | Sep 21 13:08 |
| oiaohm_ | All dead line systems have the same fault. | Sep 21 13:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does not care when a task was last run | Sep 21 13:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | thus tasks can be easily starved out | Sep 21 13:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Will give load to processes they should not. | Sep 21 13:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: wrong | Sep 21 13:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Lack of bias to prevent errors. | Sep 21 13:08 |
| oiaohm_ | CFS could be improved yes by adding some dead line tracking. | Sep 21 13:09 |
| oiaohm_ | But pure dead line itself. | Sep 21 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | why do you think biasing works? | Sep 21 13:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Its been done 1000 times over. | Sep 21 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does not accurately track it's accounting | Sep 21 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | it never will | Sep 21 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo doesnt think its required | Sep 21 13:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | which means all of the further calculations will be completely wrong | Sep 21 13:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Biasing means key processes don't fail to respond on time. So system remains in a recoverable state. | Sep 21 13:10 |
| oiaohm_ | No matter the attack. | Sep 21 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS is designed that all tasks must be eventually ran | Sep 21 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | this includes "key system tasks" or whatever | Sep 21 13:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Again in case of attack that will cause failure. | Sep 21 13:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 21 13:10 |
| oiaohm_ | The list will just get too long. | Sep 21 13:11 |
| oiaohm_ | items will time out in loop. | Sep 21 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 21 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | look at the code before you try to comment | Sep 21 13:11 |
| oiaohm_ | At particular points processes have to be lost for the good of the system. | Sep 21 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | also, most kernel threads _are_ niced to higher values | Sep 21 13:11 |
| oiaohm_ | There is just not enough cpu time to go round. | Sep 21 13:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | I hope you do realize that | Sep 21 13:11 |
| oiaohm_ | Niced don't sort out key from non effectively. | Sep 21 13:12 |
| Diablo-D3 | this is how the kernel has done this since the creation | Sep 21 13:12 |
| oiaohm_ | Even if something is not highly niced like a ssh server it still might be key. | Sep 21 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | _actually_ important kernel threads get higher priorities | Sep 21 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: which is where you go wrong again | Sep 21 13:13 |
| oiaohm_ | This is where cgroups and other tech that BFS design wants to throw way. | Sep 21 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS will allow ssh to time out | Sep 21 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS wont | Sep 21 13:13 |
| oiaohm_ | Falls into place. | Sep 21 13:13 |
| oiaohm_ | CFS using cgroups to protect ssh it will not time out. | Sep 21 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but you have to actually use those cgroups | Sep 21 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS automatically works correctly with no user intervention. | Sep 21 13:14 |
| oiaohm_ | It does not work. | Sep 21 13:14 |
| oiaohm_ | That is the simple point you don't have the tools to make it work Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | like I said, X kept responding usably while I had thousands of threads running | Sep 21 13:14 |
| oiaohm_ | Ok CFS is harder to make it work that is should be. | Sep 21 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS had X stop responding for seconds at a time with just hundreds | Sep 21 13:15 |
| oiaohm_ | Did you cgroup X | Sep 21 13:15 |
| oiaohm_ | I guess no. | Sep 21 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | I am not using cgroups because they are not automatically setup on my machine | Sep 21 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | cgroups are not, and never will be, an acceptable answer | Sep 21 13:16 |
| oiaohm_ | Then you distributions is at fault for not setting up you system right. | Sep 21 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | ubuntu nor debian use silly things like that | Sep 21 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | debian and ubuntu combined are pretty much the entire linux desktop and server market | Sep 21 13:16 |
| oiaohm_ | More like they have not bothered. | Sep 21 13:17 |
| oiaohm_ | Desktop is not important. | Sep 21 13:17 |
| oiaohm_ | has been a mind set for a long time. | Sep 21 13:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, which is why linus has his tunnel vision on | Sep 21 13:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | he cares about machines that dont really exist | Sep 21 13:18 |
| oiaohm_ | With bias CFS will out live BFS. | Sep 21 13:18 |
| oiaohm_ | BFS with bias could possiable out live everything. | Sep 21 13:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | 90% of the market is either desktops, servers below 32 threads, or embedded machines (such as openwrt routers or android phones) | Sep 21 13:19 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet while CK is stupid and keeps on the line of not taking biases he will never be able to out prove CFS in ever test. | Sep 21 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | less than a tenth of a percent of the market is super giant NUMA clusters | Sep 21 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: uh, CFS has lost in every test I performed | Sep 21 13:19 |
| oiaohm_ | Were you doing tests with cgroups in effect Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:19 |
| oiaohm_ | Answer no. | Sep 21 13:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS has lower io throughput, higher io latency, very inconsistent latency, and cant handle several magnitudes of order more threads than cores | Sep 21 13:20 |
| oiaohm_ | The very code CK says it a waste of space you did not test. | Sep 21 13:20 |
| oiaohm_ | So see what it does. | Sep 21 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wont use cgroups because they are not defaultly enabled | Sep 21 13:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | and btw, why do you keep bringing up biases? | Sep 21 13:21 |
| oiaohm_ | CK has him self walled by refusing to concider including them. | Sep 21 13:21 |
| oiaohm_ | cgroups are a bias system. | Sep 21 13:21 |
| oiaohm_ | cgroups design can operate independant to cfs | Sep 21 13:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | cgroups cannot make cfs run faster | Sep 21 13:22 |
| oiaohm_ | If the sheduler is prepaird to play ball with it. | Sep 21 13:22 |
| oiaohm_ | They don't make it run faster. | Sep 21 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | what you have is called a strawman attack, I think you've heard of them. | Sep 21 13:22 |
| oiaohm_ | that is not there objective. | Sep 21 13:22 |
| oiaohm_ | There objective is to allow processes of lower critical nature to be dumped in case of high load. | Sep 21 13:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, the objective is to a) waste less time in the scheduler, b) have it keep cores more active on actual code, c) decrease io latency, d) make io latency more consistent | Sep 21 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: yes, thats called nicing. | Sep 21 13:23 |
| oiaohm_ | No | Sep 21 13:23 |
| oiaohm_ | Nicing does not work. | Sep 21 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS already supports nice values, and handles them far better than CFS | Sep 21 13:23 |
| oiaohm_ | nicing says give application more processor time. | Sep 21 13:23 |
| oiaohm_ | critical applications don't need more. | Sep 21 13:23 |
| Diablo-D3 | then you want a RT task | Sep 21 13:24 |
| oiaohm_ | They just need to get some. | Sep 21 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS already supports RT tasks | Sep 21 13:24 |
| oiaohm_ | No these are no RT tasks. | Sep 21 13:24 |
| oiaohm_ | not RT tasks | Sep 21 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | then you're using the kernel wrong | Sep 21 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | CK, nor anyone else, caters to user error | Sep 21 13:24 |
| oiaohm_ | RT tasks have a lagaccy issue. | Sep 21 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | RT means realtime | Sep 21 13:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | which means, ultimately, they must be ran every x ms | Sep 21 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | These tasks responce time can be moved. | Sep 21 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Not like a RT task that is on a dead line. | Sep 21 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS actually allows hard realtime to be implemented in the kernel | Sep 21 13:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS does not | Sep 21 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | They must like get time like every 4 seconds. | Sep 21 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Far broader than what the RT system supports. | Sep 21 13:25 |
| oiaohm_ | And they may need the time spit between a group of processes. | Sep 21 13:26 |
| oiaohm_ | Ie no point giving time to just one of them if they need the others to operate. | Sep 21 13:26 |
| oiaohm_ | cgroups are a important process management tool in cases of high load. | Sep 21 13:26 |
| oiaohm_ | There is a RT cgroup as well Diablo-D3 due to exactly the same kind of issue with inter releated processes. | Sep 21 13:27 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: unfortunately, you're rather confused on how schedulers work | Sep 21 13:28 |
| oiaohm_ | Nice does not deal with the allocation of processor time to inter releated process to make sure they get time. | Sep 21 13:28 |
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| oiaohm_ | Instead allowed too may other things niced a the same level to go in and if application need something with lower nice to run so it can complete it can fail to come. | Sep 21 13:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | CFS is not fair because it does not have consistent timeslice lengths and it does not account for it properly (it can be wrong up to 100%) | Sep 21 13:29 |
| oiaohm_ | No you are a fool Diablo-D3 you believe nice is the be all and end all of process mangement. | Sep 21 13:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | no, the end all and be all of process management is allowing all processes to run in a short period of time | Sep 21 13:29 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] World Day Against Software #Patents is Coming, #PatentTrolls Still Attack Critics http://bit.ly/JfCox | Sep 21 13:29 | |
| oiaohm_ | containers that are the base of cgroups came into existance to save solarias deadline schudler under high load. | Sep 21 13:30 |
| oiaohm_ | History is against you Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS has an extremely short time slice length, and has much lower overhead so you don't pay for more frequent context switches | Sep 21 13:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: math is against you | Sep 21 13:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | so is ignorance | Sep 21 13:30 |
| oiaohm_ | You are miss applying maths. | Sep 21 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | not at all | Sep 21 13:31 |
| oiaohm_ | You have forget to include interreleationships between processes. | Sep 21 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | I can write self timing tests as well as any one else. | Sep 21 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: oh, you wanna try that game too? | Sep 21 13:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | my 1:1 reader/writer lockless queue test _loves_ BFS | Sep 21 13:32 |
| oiaohm_ | 1:1 of course. | Sep 21 13:32 |
| oiaohm_ | Lets try something a little more complex. | Sep 21 13:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | I only have two cores | Sep 21 13:32 |
| oiaohm_ | A chain interrleation. | Sep 21 13:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | it runs faster on the thousand thread test, but I cant get the test to run right on CFS | Sep 21 13:33 |
| oiaohm_ | 2000 processes that must talk to each other in order. | Sep 21 13:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | so Im not sure how much faster BFS is | Sep 21 13:33 |
| oiaohm_ | The equal to chines wispers. | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | zoobab_: | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | " | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | I am inviting people who are interested to help on irc.freenode.net #ssp @ 20h. | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | If you have problems connecting, try mibbit.com. | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | Don't hesitate to pass the word around. | Sep 21 13:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: I'd have to switch to a locked setup for that | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | " | Sep 21 13:33 |
| schestowitz | mibbit is blocked by freenode | Sep 21 13:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: apps waiting for locks too long go to sleep | Sep 21 13:33 |
| oiaohm_ | a must message b then b must message c and so on until you get to a Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: so I end up only with a small number of awake threads | Sep 21 13:34 |
| oiaohm_ | Now we start those processes in a random order with a lot of other junk. | Sep 21 13:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: and I did say, I tried that lockless queue test on thousands of threads | Sep 21 13:34 |
| oiaohm_ | And start the first message off. | Sep 21 13:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | I got up to 500:500 before my machine started getting sluggish | Sep 21 13:34 |
| oiaohm_ | were they talking in chains Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | 500 readers, 500 writers, one queue | Sep 21 13:34 |
| oiaohm_ | No 1 queue | Sep 21 13:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | no locks, it uses a lockfree design. | Sep 21 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | 2000 queues | Sep 21 13:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | why would I do that? contention would dramatically drop | Sep 21 13:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | it'd actually work even smoother, oiaohm_ | Sep 21 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | Note the pattern here. | Sep 21 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | a must message b then b message c | Sep 21 13:35 |
| oiaohm_ | And so on. | Sep 21 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, you end up with one running process | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | No | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | I did not say a existed. | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | opps | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | exited | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | The stay as processes still wanting cpu time. | Sep 21 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | apps waiting for locks generally sleep | Sep 21 13:36 |
| oiaohm_ | No sleep. | Sep 21 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | you dont get to choose that, oiaohm_ | Sep 21 13:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | glibc has a very optimized lock design | Sep 21 13:37 |
| oiaohm_ | X11 server | Sep 21 13:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'm going to repeat that again, glibc has a very optimized lock design | Sep 21 13:37 |
| oiaohm_ | You are just doing what the worse setup X11 server will do. | Sep 21 13:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | you do realize X runs muuuuuuuch better in BFS than CFS, right? | Sep 21 13:37 |
| oiaohm_ | The thread moves on and processes something else. | Sep 21 13:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | much smaller timeslice length, much more consistent length of timeslices, very low i/o latency | Sep 21 13:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | X is a dream on BFS | Sep 21 13:38 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet CFS + cgroup can still beat BFS running X11 | Sep 21 13:39 |
| oiaohm_ | Under high load. | Sep 21 13:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | yet BFS with X11 running as SCHED_ISO can beat CFS + cgroup | Sep 21 13:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | not that I have to, I cant slow X down enough under BFS to use it | Sep 21 13:40 |
| oiaohm_ | CFS + rt-cgroup matches again. | Sep 21 13:40 |
| oiaohm_ | You have said CFS is crap. | Sep 21 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | it is crap | Sep 21 13:40 |
| oiaohm_ | What is true. | Sep 21 13:40 |
| oiaohm_ | Yet 1 bit of tech is able to close gap. | Sep 21 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | you're stating cfs+cgroup may beat bfs | Sep 21 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have not tested it, and I dont really care to | Sep 21 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | the answer is not to add even _more_ code | Sep 21 13:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | its to take away code | Sep 21 13:41 |
| oiaohm_ | II see BFS + cgroup as possiable being impressive. | Sep 21 13:41 |
| oiaohm_ | Since releated processes that need to chat can be run in the right order. | Sep 21 13:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, SCHED_ISO under BFS is basically RT-like | Sep 21 13:41 |
| oiaohm_ | No some random order. | Sep 21 13:41 |
| oiaohm_ | random order does cause speed problems. | Sep 21 13:42 |
| oiaohm_ | random order also increases risk of key part failure. | Sep 21 13:42 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically CK has not understood what cgroups is controlling Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 13:44 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, but you're claming that he wouldnt implement it | Sep 21 13:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats not true at all | Sep 21 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | So has thrown the baby out with the bath water. | Sep 21 13:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | all cgroup is is task grouping | Sep 21 13:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesn't solve the issue at all | Sep 21 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | It is true. | Sep 21 13:45 |
| Diablo-D3 | and it could be done in BFS in like 3 or 4 lines | Sep 21 13:45 |
| oiaohm_ | cgrouping is a little more than that. | Sep 21 13:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | linux itself is not designed to work that way | Sep 21 13:46 |
| oiaohm_ | It also percentage of cpu time to group. | Sep 21 13:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesn't expose, example, a userland API to hint what task should be ran next | Sep 21 13:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | such as multithreaded lock dependencies | Sep 21 13:46 |
| oiaohm_ | A max percentage. | Sep 21 13:46 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: btw, thats just the SCHED_ISO code all over again | Sep 21 13:46 |
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| Diablo-D3 | everything to do cgroups is already in BFS | Sep 21 13:50 |
| oiaohm_ | cgroups also align to block device access and other schedures in the system. | Sep 21 13:50 |
| oiaohm_ | Not aligning accross the other schedulers. | Sep 21 13:50 |
| Diablo-D3 | wow, cgroups are pretty broken then | Sep 21 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | do not want | Sep 21 13:51 |
| oiaohm_ | Its not broken. | Sep 21 13:51 |
| oiaohm_ | Having cpu time only for application to run into a io lock is pointless. | Sep 21 13:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | I'd rather use bh's code instead | Sep 21 13:52 |
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| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: uh, except an application cant get cpu time | Sep 21 13:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not sure if you realized, but bfs does not schedule sleeping processes | Sep 21 13:52 |
| oiaohm_ | When running into the lock could have been avoid. | Sep 21 13:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | yes, which you really want bh's code | Sep 21 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Its why cgroups can speed CFS up. | Sep 21 13:55 |
| oiaohm_ | Let switching less sleeping to do the same thing. | Sep 21 13:56 |
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| oiaohm_ | let/less | Sep 21 13:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: bh's code allows the system to understand who needs what when | Sep 21 13:58 |
| Diablo-D3 | without using stupid hacks like cgroups | Sep 21 13:58 |
| oiaohm_ | bh does not provide piority. | Sep 21 13:59 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Excellent idea! RT @guardiantech: Scrap those old boilers - http://bit.ly/6domx | Sep 21 13:59 | |
| oiaohm_ | The hardest thing always to work out is what you can throw away. | Sep 21 14:00 |
| oiaohm_ | Its also why cgroups also controlls the Linux process killer. | Sep 21 14:00 |
| oiaohm_ | Its a interlink between all the process control systems. | Sep 21 14:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | Im not really interested, oiaohm_ | Sep 21 14:01 |
| Diablo-D3 | I don't really care about what people like mingo and his cronies are doing until they learn how real workloads work | Sep 21 14:01 |
| oiaohm_ | this is the issue Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | You don't want to learn from what is there. | Sep 21 14:02 |
| oiaohm_ | History of why things have been done has to be understood before you can design something new without repeating mistakes of history. | Sep 21 14:03 |
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| oiaohm_ | People you hate have been bitten many times over and are not just going to try something on a wim. | Sep 21 14:04 |
| oiaohm_ | They have done that all ready Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: uh | Sep 21 14:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | I think you misunderstood | Sep 21 14:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont care about mingo because he doesnt learn from history | Sep 21 14:05 |
| oiaohm_ | People following the safe path always appears to slow progress. | Sep 21 14:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | his way has been tried hundreds of times, and it never works | Sep 21 14:05 |
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| oiaohm_ | Not exactly. | Sep 21 14:05 |
| oiaohm_ | His way is the stable way results are predictable. | Sep 21 14:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | code needs to be KISS. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | cfs is not KISS. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | Ok no best results. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | no/not | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | KISS in schudlers also has been tried in history. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | Many times over as well. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | With a lot of good and bad results. | Sep 21 14:06 |
| oiaohm_ | bfs ideas are not new. | Sep 21 14:07 |
| oiaohm_ | Both cfs and bfs are both random order schedulers. | Sep 21 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Just different provides of random. | Sep 21 14:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | bfs isn't random order either | Sep 21 14:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | its actually rather set and predictable | Sep 21 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ | prandom. | Sep 21 14:08 |
| oiaohm_ | Look at what creates the order Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:09 |
| oiaohm_ | Its not information about the processes themselves. | Sep 21 14:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: actually, it pretty much is | Sep 21 14:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | now quit bugging me, I have work to do | Sep 21 14:10 |
| oiaohm_ | Order they are run in. | Sep 21 14:11 |
| oiaohm_ | effects Bfs quite badly. | Sep 21 14:11 |
| oiaohm_ | Particular on stuff using messaging that does not cause locks. | Sep 21 14:12 |
| schestowitz | Bureaucrat behind bars for creating 1,400 fake kids < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/21/hmrc_giant_tax_fraud/ > | Sep 21 14:17 |
| oiaohm_ | SCHED_ISO Diablo-D3 is something cgroups let set per group. So different groups can have different SCHED_ISO settings. This can be kinda important. Too much real-time can stave system completely of resources. | Sep 21 14:18 |
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| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: no, I said recycle the code | Sep 21 14:18 |
| oiaohm_ | Really SCHED_RR conversion of SCHED_ISO for all SCHED_ISO that BFS does can make it a sitting duck too Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | BFS already supports extremely accurate cpu limiting | Sep 21 14:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | far more accurate than CFS can | Sep 21 14:18 |
| schestowitz | "Britain is at risk from being overrun by ferocious "supercats", as domestic moggies interbreed with fierce wildcats increasingly being imported by extreme pet owners." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/21/supercat/ | Sep 21 14:19 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: lol, pussies | Sep 21 14:20 |
| oiaohm_ | SCHED_IDLEPRIO funny enough is not unique either Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:20 |
| oiaohm_ | That is cgroup 0% cpu allocation Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:20 |
| Diablo-D3 | and what you're really asking about is layered schedulers | Sep 21 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | which isn't new either | Sep 21 14:21 |
| Diablo-D3 | in fact, if linus would just allow plugsched to proceed, this would already be here | Sep 21 14:22 |
| oiaohm_ | It is not new Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:22 |
| Diablo-D3 | you'd just have schedulers as tasks in schedulers | Sep 21 14:22 |
| oiaohm_ | But in all the history of schedulers is always been the least breakable when attacked. | Sep 21 14:22 |
| MinceR | :3 | Sep 21 14:23 |
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| oiaohm_ | Its not like layered scheduler does not already exist in the Linux kernel Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:24 |
| oiaohm_ | Its just not where you have been looking. | Sep 21 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | anyhow, seriously, I have work to do | Sep 21 14:24 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont care anymore | Sep 21 14:25 |
| oiaohm_ | Basically both main developer of cfs and CK are on the right path pathly Diablo-D3 | Sep 21 14:25 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm_: well | Sep 21 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | Neither is on 100 percent the right path. | Sep 21 14:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | mingo is on the path with CFS because he took CK's ideas and didnt implement them right because he didnt understand them | Sep 21 14:26 |
| Diablo-D3 | so you're half right, CK is on the right path | Sep 21 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | No mingo also has interest in cgroups. | Sep 21 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | That give a layered scheduler. | Sep 21 14:26 |
| oiaohm_ | CK designs look to provide a good core to put inside a layered scheduler. | Sep 21 14:27 |
| oiaohm_ | CK is not seeing the importance of a layered scheduler. | Sep 21 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | actually, him and I both agree on the kernel should support plugsched | Sep 21 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | so shuddup already | Sep 21 14:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | I have shit to do | Sep 21 14:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | unlike you, I have a job | Sep 21 14:29 |
| schestowitz | Single-Window Confirmed For Gimp 2.8 (And More) http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/09/gimp-28-confirmed-as-single-window.html | Sep 21 14:29 |
| schestowitz | :-((( | Sep 21 14:29 |
| schestowitz | At least they keep options | Sep 21 14:30 |
| schestowitz | Now they have both menu bars and old-style menus | Sep 21 14:30 |
| oiaohm_ | Again plugsched never covered the secuirty issues of it. Diablo-D3 . CK has a complete history if not understanding why stuff is walling and compaining without dealing with the issue. | Sep 21 14:31 |
| oiaohm_ | cgroups could see plugsched return in a different form. | Sep 21 14:32 |
| MinceR | so gimp gets to keep its sane gui but the photoshop-addicted whiners will be able to get their broken gui too | Sep 21 14:33 |
| MinceR | win-win | Sep 21 14:33 |
| oiaohm_ | scheduler applied to a group Diablo-D3 since not applied to whole system processes containable and secure. | Sep 21 14:33 |
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| oiaohm_ | http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/09/weird-science-dulls-the-pain-with-cold-hard-cash.ars | Sep 21 14:57 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The European Commission has just responded to me with damage control (re OSS 'Strategy'). I'll blog it shortly. | Sep 21 15:22 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: yes, something like that | Sep 21 15:22 |
| schestowitz | I'm OK with the GUI in 2.6 | Sep 21 15:23 |
| schestowitz | The context menu and menu bar are identical | Sep 21 15:23 |
| schestowitz | Just laid out differently | Sep 21 15:23 |
| schestowitz | For people who are accustomed to having menus on top | Sep 21 15:24 |
| MinceR | well, the old-style menu was available on top, too :> | Sep 21 15:24 |
| schestowitz | When? | Sep 21 15:24 |
| MinceR | (via the arrow button at the intersection of the rulers) | Sep 21 15:24 |
| schestowitz | How far back? | Sep 21 15:24 |
| schestowitz | GIMP 1.2 didn't have it and I think 2.4 didn't have it either | Sep 21 15:24 |
| MinceR | that button was there as far back as i can remember | Sep 21 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | They should rename GIMP PhotoPop | Sep 21 15:25 |
| schestowitz | That'll make the migrants almost feel like home | Sep 21 15:25 |
| schestowitz | I wonder if Adobe takes part in the muck raking | Sep 21 15:25 |
| schestowitz | Or maybe just diehard PS fans | Sep 21 15:25 |
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| schestowitz | GIMP makes pro editing of images a commodity | Sep 21 15:26 |
| MinceR | the cult of PS seems very much like the crApple cult | Sep 21 15:26 |
| schestowitz | What some people blog about........http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/09/17/Hotels pffft.. | Sep 21 15:26 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: K00l artist types | Sep 21 15:27 |
| schestowitz | They would reject Linux for default looks alone | Sep 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | yeah, artistes with no brain and lots of fanaticism | Sep 21 15:27 |
| schestowitz | I don't know.... | Sep 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | must have the Fisher-Price GUI | Sep 21 15:27 |
| schestowitz | But maybe we should sell PCs with bow ties to target those.... | Sep 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | lol | Sep 21 15:27 |
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| schestowitz | http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/29684/ "And thanks to all the people who made all this great software possible. Imagine a world without it...we'd have Microsoft bar codes tattooed on our heads." | Sep 21 15:40 |
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| schestowitz | Airlink 101 AWLL3028 $10 USB WiFi adapter works automatically with Ubuntu 8.04 < http://blogs.dailynews.com/click/2009/09/airlink-101-awll3028-10-usb-wi.html > | Sep 21 15:44 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] IRC meeting to prepare the World Day Against Software Patents this evening at 20:00 Paris hour on #ssp irc.freenode.net or http://i5.be/Kf | Sep 21 15:49 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] @schestowitz I hope for transparency you got the submission from ACT. | Sep 21 15:51 | |
| *twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 21 15:53 | |
| schestowitz | LMOA: Microsoft says turn off Windows feature to protect Windows < http://www.itworld.com/security/78261/microsoft-says-turn-windows-feature-protect-windows > | Sep 21 16:02 |
| schestowitz | zoobab_: I mailed Lars back | Sep 21 16:02 |
| schestowitz | He plays dumb | Sep 21 16:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Taking care to further the education and erudition of the young http://is.gd/3wOA7 | Sep 21 16:02 | |
| schestowitz | And he replied 4 months late cause the ombudsman sits on him | Sep 21 16:03 |
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| fewa | The US doesn't have ombudsman | Sep 21 16:13 |
| fewa | you have to sue, which costs money, to any oversight | Sep 21 16:13 |
| fewa | --or get politics involved and congress, which hasn't legitimately happened since the 70s | Sep 21 16:13 |
| fewa | There was a consumer protection bill, to institute a singular ombudsman for the federal government, that passed the house numberous times | Sep 21 16:14 |
| fewa | and Nader and Nader's raiders got behind it | Sep 21 16:15 |
| fewa | but it never passed the Senate, the proportional, and once not elected, body | Sep 21 16:15 |
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| _Hicham_ | Hi All! | Sep 21 16:35 |
| schestowitz | Increase the booting speed of Fedora < http://icewalkerz.blogspot.com/2009/09/increase-booting-speed-of-fedora.html > | Sep 21 16:46 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : how is it going on Kubuntu Karmic ? | Sep 21 16:49 |
| schestowitz | Linux users buy the most: http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2608 | Sep 21 16:52 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: all good | Sep 21 16:52 |
| schestowitz | I wonder if Google's APps was the cause for now putting OOo in Pack anymore.. http://www.lockergnome.com/theoracle/2009/09/20/open-office-needs-some-changes/ | Sep 21 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Holy c*. Eye candy, batman!!!! From the archives: the best text editors of 2000 < http://www.tuxradar.com/content/archives-best-text-editors-2000 > | Sep 21 16:57 |
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| schestowitz | wallclimber: We are not at the stage of looking for more exhibits and maybe completing older ones | Sep 21 16:58 |
| wallclimber | Do you mean "we are not" or we are *now*??? | Sep 21 16:59 |
| wallclimber | I'm experimenting with a new program today. It's called "Pencil" and it does drawing and animations. It looks interesting. | Sep 21 17:00 |
| wallclimber | Also downloaded ktoon...haven't used that one before either. I think i may attempt to do an animation this week. | Sep 21 17:00 |
| wallclimber | :) | Sep 21 17:00 |
| schestowitz | YEs | Sep 21 17:02 |
| schestowitz | Now and not are a common typo for me, which is bad. It means opposites | Sep 21 17:02 |
| schestowitz | ktoons I think I tried once, a long, long time ago | Sep 21 17:03 |
| wallclimber | lol, i understand completely...just wanted to make sure. | Sep 21 17:03 |
| schestowitz | Stellarium is cure | Sep 21 17:03 |
| schestowitz | For some reason I typically also type Russia as "Russian" | Sep 21 17:03 |
| schestowitz | Basically though, I'm so happy to see the Comes 'bucket' empty | Sep 21 17:04 |
| schestowitz | Now it's like maintenance mode | Sep 21 17:04 |
| schestowitz | I'll organise the Wiki and site better | Sep 21 17:04 |
| schestowitz | RMS: 'Miguel de Icaza “is basically a traitor to the Free Software community” This was in response to my question about the new Microsoft “Open Source” labs.' http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/software-freedom-day-in-boston/ | Sep 21 17:05 |
| schestowitz | That's quite a statement there | Sep 21 17:05 |
| schestowitz | I'll do a post about it later | Sep 21 17:05 |
| schestowitz | The FSF foolishly gave this turncoat an award once | Sep 21 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Also Theo de Raadt | Sep 21 17:05 |
| schestowitz | Theo is one of those who attack RMS with vitriol | Sep 21 17:06 |
| wallclimber | I don't know much about Theo, but from what i've read he seems vitriolic by nature... | Sep 21 17:07 |
| wallclimber | just a basically unhappy person. | Sep 21 17:07 |
| wallclimber | Miguel seems like a man with a specific agenda. | Sep 21 17:09 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Sep 21 17:09 |
| schestowitz | I listened to an audiocast about him the other day. He created a fuss when asking for donations for OpenBSD | Sep 21 17:09 |
| schestowitz | Maybe that was before the foundation he set up in Canada | Sep 21 17:10 |
| schestowitz | IMHO (I can't speak for him), Miguel looks out for himself | Sep 21 17:10 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is where the $$ is. | Sep 21 17:10 |
| wallclimber | I sometimes get the feeling - when i read things he's said - that he's gotten himself into a situation he can't get out of, and he doesn't always seem comfortable with his choices, so he gets very defensive and mean. | Sep 21 17:12 |
| schestowitz | That's what I hard privately | Sep 21 17:12 |
| wallclimber | "mean" as in angry. | Sep 21 17:12 |
| schestowitz | But he's not 'turned' to Microsoft | Sep 21 17:12 |
| schestowitz | He was a fan of theirs from the start | Sep 21 17:12 |
| schestowitz | He keeps getting deeper into this hole thoug | Sep 21 17:13 |
| schestowitz | If he had intent to change, he would decline this whole CodePlex gig | Sep 21 17:13 |
| wallclimber | i knew that he had always favored MS, but sometimes when we get what we wish for we find it's not so nice. he may be feeling a bit trapped now. | Sep 21 17:13 |
| wallclimber | Microsoft likely just dangles enough bait to keep him chasing it... | Sep 21 17:14 |
| wallclimber | hard to know, really, what motivates people. | Sep 21 17:15 |
| wallclimber | well, it's Monday morning and the phone's ringing, so i better get to work. I'll leave xchat open though and check in at lunchtime... | Sep 21 17:16 |
| wallclimber | :) | Sep 21 17:16 |
| schestowitz | OK :-) | Sep 21 17:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux #Commercials Hit the #Radio http://bit.ly/3L3oEt | Sep 21 17:26 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Enterprise L[inux]AMP Summit Created, Speakers Listed http://linuxmednews.com/1253324921 #gnu #linux #apache | Sep 21 17:31 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux #Media Players Gets #RemoteControls with #Remuco http://bit.ly/GnNjx | Sep 21 17:34 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #TheHindu Offers an Introduction to #GNU #Linux http://beta.thehindu.com/business/article22881.ece | Sep 21 17:38 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft-indoctrinated #BestBuy, #Staples, #OfficeDepot Staff Won't Pitch #Linux #FUD http://bit.ly/115BS4 | Sep 21 17:40 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment Community Invited to #Qt Developer Days 2009 http://bit.ly/1Aj8So #kde | Sep 21 17:43 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Glimpse Ahead at #GNOME 3.0 http://bit.ly/U4BOK http://bit.ly/XlzNt | Sep 21 17:48 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PuppyLinux 4.3 Receives Rave #Review http://bit.ly/3jNr4d | Sep 21 17:49 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Successfully Carries Away People Away from #Windows http://bit.ly/l23l6 | Sep 21 17:51 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Mint 8 (‘Helena’) to Have Improved Installer http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=1049 | Sep 21 17:52 | |
| *magentar (n=magentar@p4FC8374E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 17:55 | |
| *magentar has quit (Broken pipe) | Sep 21 17:56 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Anonymous #WebBrowsing on #Mobile #Linux Enabled http://bit.ly/1KK7ig | Sep 21 17:57 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at #Ubuntu #Netbook Remix Derivative, Jolicloud #Subnotebooks #Linux http://bit.ly/Sbg9S | Sep 21 17:59 | |
| *magentar (n=magentar@p4FC8374E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 18:00 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox a Winner in Education for Extensibility http://bit.ly/3HDox7 | Sep 21 18:00 | |
| PetoKraus | hah | Sep 21 18:02 |
| PetoKraus | our prof. asked us to send him a CV in MS-Word formaty | Sep 21 18:02 |
| PetoKraus | so I sent him a PDF stating that I can't send him a .doc, as I don't use MS office | Sep 21 18:03 |
| PetoKraus | :) | Sep 21 18:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | Consequat -- a Schrodinger's Cat, after you open the box | Sep 21 18:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #sharing and #OpenAccess Improved Further, #NewScientist Backs Idea http://bit.ly/T4ACk http://bit.ly/eDXQY | Sep 21 18:06 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Citizens Demand Transparency and Openness from Their Government http://bit.ly/15wJ1V http://bit.ly/apeg6 via @glynmoody | Sep 21 18:09 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The 'IP Lawyers' Fan Club at IAM Worried About Revolt Against IP http://bit.ly/4pPwPL Great news. They listen. | Sep 21 18:12 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The #MAFIAA in the #UK Suffers Setback, #Germany Resists #IntellectualMonopolies http://bit.ly/R4O8h http://bit.ly/2LB5pP | Sep 21 18:16 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RichardStallman Calls #MigueldeIcaza a Traitor to the #FreeSoftware community http://bit.ly/3pT6pK #gnu #fsf #novell | Sep 21 18:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hilarious!! #Microsoft 'Patches' #Windows by Telling People to Castrate Features http://bit.ly/3CBbbn #smb #fail | Sep 21 18:19 | |
| schestowitz | PetoKraus: well done | Sep 21 18:21 |
| schestowitz | Gets the message across. | Sep 21 18:21 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Making home made burgers for tea, and using the remainder for meatballs for tomorrow. | Sep 21 18:21 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @zoobab re: "I hope for transparency you got the submission from ACT." -> I'm still working on it :-) | Sep 21 18:32 | |
| *PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 21 18:42 | |
| *trmanco is now known as phIRCe | Sep 21 19:16 | |
| *phIRCe is now known as trmanco | Sep 21 19:18 | |
| cubezzz | Some of the people who aren't really believers in FOSS will use anything and so are platform "agnostic" | Sep 21 19:26 |
| cubezzz | the idea that they could contribute code for free is repulsive to them | Sep 21 19:27 |
| fewa | cubezzz, just like the idea that they could have software that works | Sep 21 19:31 |
| fewa | or the idea that their ideas or software will ever been accepted by any large group of people | Sep 21 19:31 |
| fewa | which is a powerful way to create alot of business | Sep 21 19:31 |
| fewa | and people that will use anything are powerless against the power-moves of proprietary vendors--they are the pawns | Sep 21 19:33 |
| cubezzz | well, they could buy stocks and share in the revenue that way | Sep 21 19:34 |
| fewa | cubezzz, until the board of directors decides to give themselves another bonus to match profit gains | Sep 21 19:34 |
| cubezzz | it's TRON all over again :) | Sep 21 19:35 |
| fewa | or profit get siphoned profits into auxiliary businesses--either from corruption, or from leaching contractors | Sep 21 19:35 |
| cubezzz | "user requests are what computers are for" -- Dumont | Sep 21 19:36 |
| cubezzz | fewa, well I guess I basically trust Red Hat, I bought some stocks | Sep 21 19:37 |
| fewa | yeah i would too | Sep 21 19:37 |
| fewa | they just got on the S&P 500 | Sep 21 19:37 |
| cubezzz | South America is moving in the FOSS direction | Sep 21 19:38 |
| fewa | and they seem to understand FOSS, and are more committed to FOSS better than any other company of their size | Sep 21 19:40 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ODF Alliance Newsletter: September 2009 http://bit.ly/jyxvo | Sep 21 19:40 | |
| fewa | for example, with a firm comitment for FOSS drivers | Sep 21 19:41 |
| fewa | and a preemptive and appropriate approach to mono | Sep 21 19:42 |
| cubezzz | I find that Japanese companies are fairly good for drivers | Sep 21 19:42 |
| fewa | Linux is big in Japan | Sep 21 19:42 |
| cubezzz | Epson, Sharp, Panasonic | Sep 21 19:42 |
| fewa | HP also has really good drivers | Sep 21 19:42 |
| cubezzz | HP let me down for scanners post-2000 | Sep 21 19:43 |
| cubezzz | before that they were good | Sep 21 19:43 |
| fewa | hmm, never had problems with printer | Sep 21 19:43 |
| fewa | well, the scan function doesn't seem to be supported.... | Sep 21 19:43 |
| *Diablo-D3 has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 21 19:43 | |
| fewa | or I don't know how | Sep 21 19:43 |
| cubezzz | exactly :) | Sep 21 19:43 |
| fewa | but in Windows it is woorse | Sep 21 19:43 |
| fewa | as the only way to get HP stuff to work in Windows is with 700MB of bloat | Sep 21 19:44 |
| fewa | unless you buy the "enterprise" (read $$$) stuff | Sep 21 19:44 |
| cubezzz | they had a good language for talking to scanners then they dropped it | Sep 21 19:44 |
| fewa | bloat is an anti-feature, and they know it | Sep 21 19:44 |
| cubezzz | SCL | Sep 21 19:44 |
| fewa | they wont just give you a .inf file | Sep 21 19:44 |
| cubezzz | well, for single function scanners anyway | Sep 21 19:45 |
| fewa | well Japan and China will lead the way.... | Sep 21 19:45 |
| cubezzz | fewa: I heard that China mostly just pirates windows | Sep 21 19:46 |
| fewa | users and manufactures are two differn't groups | Sep 21 19:46 |
| fewa | and since China's sector is only now coming up | Sep 21 19:46 |
| fewa | they will be looking towards the future, or perish | Sep 21 19:47 |
| fewa | but.... | Sep 21 19:47 |
| fewa | Lenovo is a big disappointment | Sep 21 19:47 |
| fewa | Canonical reports that Ubuntu-running netbooks are very popular in East Asia | Sep 21 19:48 |
| fewa | *Ubuntu Linux-running | Sep 21 19:48 |
| fewa | Also china doesn't like Vista, like everyone else | Sep 21 19:48 |
| fewa | so they are stuck, like everyone else on the Win-boat | Sep 21 19:49 |
| cubezzz | people aren't really stuck nowadays, there's tons of choices | Sep 21 19:53 |
| cubezzz | they may just be incurious | Sep 21 19:53 |
| fewa | to developers and manufactures hitching yourself to a sinking boat is not a very good idea | Sep 21 19:59 |
| fewa | however | Sep 21 20:00 |
| *Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.51.42.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:14 | |
| fewa | but yeah, for users it is not that hard | Sep 21 20:18 |
| fewa | cubezzz, they copy windows without giving Microsoft money | Sep 21 20:19 |
| fewa | Microsoft wants that | Sep 21 20:19 |
| MinceR | i think it's preferable to getting windows while giving m$ money | Sep 21 20:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Confirms #WindowsXP is Not — and Never Will be — Secure http://bit.ly/Lfc1b thanks, @sjvn | Sep 21 20:20 | |
| fewa | “They’ll get sort of addicted, and then we’ll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade.” -Bill Gates | Sep 21 20:21 |
| fewa | (In reference to China) | Sep 21 20:21 |
| fewa | http://news.com.com/2100-1023-212942.html | Sep 21 20:21 |
| MinceR | or m$ dies before they can figure it out :> | Sep 21 20:21 |
| MinceR | of course the best way is to figure out how to give up the winblows dependency asap | Sep 21 20:22 |
| fewa | those that do not adapt will be hurt | Sep 21 20:22 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft makes it harder | Sep 21 20:22 |
| fewa | ^^ | Sep 21 20:22 |
| schestowitz | With junk like SIlver Lie, OOXML, etc | Sep 21 20:22 |
| schestowitz | and exFAT | Sep 21 20:22 |
| schestowitz | It's all delibrate | Sep 21 20:22 |
| fewa | just look at their history with Java | Sep 21 20:22 |
| schestowitz | They dodge standards | Sep 21 20:22 |
| fewa | http://antitrust.slated.org/halloween/halloween1.html | Sep 21 20:24 |
| fewa | Its been a deliberate strategy since the beginning | Sep 21 20:24 |
| *_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.49.31) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:28 | |
| _Hicham_ | senior schestowitz , howdy ? | Sep 21 20:28 |
| fewa | "Open Source glasnost" | Sep 21 20:29 |
| fewa | I like that | Sep 21 20:29 |
| fewa | means the end is near | Sep 21 20:29 |
| _Hicham_ | the complete victory of FOSS is near | Sep 21 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | everything will go down | Sep 21 20:30 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, there will still be fights over treacherous computing | Sep 21 20:30 |
| fewa | and DRM | Sep 21 20:30 |
| fewa | what goes down first is artificial scarcity | Sep 21 20:30 |
| _Hicham_ | if Windows+MacOS are down, there won't be any fight | Sep 21 20:31 |
| fewa | just doesn't work, and even for Microsoft has never worked | Sep 21 20:31 |
| fewa | they have always "given away" more than they have sold | Sep 21 20:31 |
| fewa | we have to let the steam roller continue after Microsoft folds | Sep 21 20:32 |
| fewa | there are many more houses of cards left | Sep 21 20:32 |
| _Hicham_ | Microsoft is a real harm to computing | Sep 21 20:33 |
| fewa | thing that the consumers do not want, do not benefit the consumers, and are not conducive to good, profitable business for everyone | Sep 21 20:33 |
| fewa | Yes, Microsoft is second to noone on holding back computin | Sep 21 20:33 |
| fewa | and on locking people in | Sep 21 20:33 |
| *phIRCe (n=n0_f34r@bl8-51-224.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:34 | |
| trmanco | schestowitz: can you give OP to it? | Sep 21 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | they harmed the Web for more than a decade | Sep 21 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | with their great IE | Sep 21 20:34 |
| fewa | I think the other huge threat right now in net neutrality | Sep 21 20:34 |
| trmanco | "fag" | Sep 21 20:34 |
| cubezzz | what is exFAT? | Sep 21 20:34 |
| trmanco | cubezzz: give OP to phIRCe | Sep 21 20:34 |
| trmanco | please | Sep 21 20:34 |
| fewa | cubezzz, a FAT filesystem designed to be incompatible with non-MS stuff | Sep 21 20:34 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u mean fewa ? | Sep 21 20:34 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, preserving the way the interet is | Sep 21 20:35 |
| cubezzz | ah | Sep 21 20:35 |
| fewa | not letting the telecoms turn it into cable, as they so heavily want to do | Sep 21 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | no, the internet is moving now | Sep 21 20:35 |
| trmanco | cmon :| | Sep 21 20:35 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExFAT | Sep 21 20:35 |
| trmanco | my time is precious | Sep 21 20:35 |
| _Hicham_ | thanks to the efforts of open source | Sep 21 20:35 |
| fewa | _Hicham_, as is on the internet now, everybodies web site is on an equal basis | Sep 21 20:36 |
| fewa | in terms of the service it recieves | Sep 21 20:36 |
| _Hicham_ | things are moving slowly fewa | Sep 21 20:36 |
| fewa | Microsoft-hosted, Apache-hosted, lighttpd, your web server | Sep 21 20:36 |
| fewa | yahoo, google, everyday american, business tycoon | Sep 21 20:36 |
| fewa | this is a huge win for the first-amendment | Sep 21 20:36 |
| fewa | and a huge threat to the Mass Media propaganda model | Sep 21 20:37 |
| trmanco | cubezzz: are you there? | Sep 21 20:37 |
| fewa | if people can always go somewhere else, if they can always get rational though. then it is much harder to control perceptions | Sep 21 20:37 |
| fewa | (although not impossible) | Sep 21 20:37 |
| fewa | FOSS comes directly out of the internet | Sep 21 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : I think the web is taking a break | Sep 21 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | after, things will then change | Sep 21 20:38 |
| cubezzz | trmanco: you better ask schestowitz | Sep 21 20:38 |
| _Hicham_ | people are running out of ideas | Sep 21 20:38 |
| fewa | "In recent years, corresponding to the growth of Internet, OSS projects have acquired the depth & complexity traditionally associated with commercial projects such as Operating Systems and mission critical servers." | Sep 21 20:38 |
| trmanco | cubezzz: I have talked to him personally | Sep 21 20:38 |
| trmanco | schestowitz: ping | Sep 21 20:38 |
| fewa | over 10 years old | Sep 21 20:38 |
| cubezzz | what is the bot for? | Sep 21 20:39 |
| trmanco | he is probably busy | Sep 21 20:39 |
| trmanco | to kick people who said bad words | Sep 21 20:39 |
| fewa | Linux was only possible on the internet, and it has always been developed over the net | Sep 21 20:39 |
| trmanco | it's just for a test | Sep 21 20:39 |
| fewa | preserving that freedom is paramount | Sep 21 20:39 |
| _Hicham_ | fewa : true | Sep 21 20:39 |
| trmanco | then schestowitz can put it online if he wants to | Sep 21 20:39 |
| fewa | http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060213/chester | Sep 21 20:40 |
| fewa | The plans have long been drawn out | Sep 21 20:40 |
| fewa | and this is a potent anti-dote http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3458 | Sep 21 20:41 |
| cubezzz | I learned what Gates was all about when him and his Dad when on WNED to talk about education | Sep 21 20:42 |
| cubezzz | they never even mentioned wikipedia | Sep 21 20:42 |
| cubezzz | when=went | Sep 21 20:43 |
| fewa | cubezzz, http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090921/patel_et_al | Sep 21 20:43 |
| cubezzz | just talked about vague generalizations | Sep 21 20:43 |
| *finalzone (i=63c7180e@gateway/web/freenode/x-lbuwexlxtkkfckot) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:44 | |
| finalzone | quick comment about XP EOL, it appears to be a calculated risk move from Microsoft | Sep 21 20:44 |
| fewa | evolution | Sep 21 20:45 |
| finalzone | quick comment about XP EOL, it appears to be a calculated risk move from Microsoft | Sep 21 20:45 |
| finalzone | for the reason Microsoft will use that excuse to force users to switch to Windows 7 | Sep 21 20:46 |
| schestowitz | hI, finalzone | Sep 21 20:46 |
| finalzone | hi, schestowitz | Sep 21 20:46 |
| schestowitz | Let me catch up... hold on. | Sep 21 20:46 |
| *schestowitz gives channel operator status to phIRCe | Sep 21 20:46 | |
| cubezzz | fewa, yeah Gates is all about proprietary solutions | Sep 21 20:46 |
| schestowitz | wb, _Hicham_ | Sep 21 20:47 |
| trmanco | cool | Sep 21 20:47 |
| trmanco | now say bad works | Sep 21 20:47 |
| trmanco | like this -> you fag | Sep 21 20:47 |
| *phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Whatch you language!) | Sep 21 20:47 | |
| *trmanco (n=trmanco@drwxr-xr-x.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:47 | |
| trmanco | :) | Sep 21 20:47 |
| schestowitz | Cool. can you /nick the bot differently? | Sep 21 20:48 |
| cubezzz | Whatch your language? | Sep 21 20:48 |
| trmanco | yeah | Sep 21 20:48 |
| trmanco | it's a typo | Sep 21 20:48 |
| trmanco | I fixed it already but I just didn't restart the bot | Sep 21 20:48 |
| schestowitz | cubezzz: it's an obscenity bot | Sep 21 20:48 |
| schestowitz | It kicks people who use bad language | Sep 21 20:48 |
| schestowitz | trmanco seems to be writing programs like this | Sep 21 20:49 |
| trmanco | I'll put this online | Sep 21 20:49 |
| finalzone | schestowitz, I only have a few minutes. I just want to comment about your report on recent XP EOL | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: did you code it or just use something existing? | Sep 21 20:49 |
| trmanco | I've been hacking all day | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | finalzone: I don't see their motives | Sep 21 20:49 |
| trmanco | I did it | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | They can't use unpatched flaws to push for upgrade | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | It's bad PR | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they lost the source code | Sep 21 20:49 |
| schestowitz | Or maybe it's too messed up | Sep 21 20:50 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: happy hacking. | Sep 21 20:50 |
| trmanco | I look into the rfc and had a peak at some other bots | Sep 21 20:50 |
| trmanco | I used the rfc | Sep 21 20:50 |
| finalzone | probably the latter. There are too many XP users | Sep 21 20:50 |
| trmanco | fuck | Sep 21 20:50 |
| *phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Whatch you language!) | Sep 21 20:50 | |
| *trmanco (n=trmanco@drwxr-xr-x.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:50 | |
| MinceR | 215106 <@schestowitz> It kicks people who use bad language | Sep 21 20:50 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 21 20:50 |
| MinceR | that's a stupid idea | Sep 21 20:50 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: why? | Sep 21 20:50 |
| trmanco | you idiot lol | Sep 21 20:50 |
| *phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Whatch you language!) | Sep 21 20:50 | |
| *trmanco (n=trmanco@drwxr-xr-x.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:50 | |
| trmanco | :) | Sep 21 20:51 |
| cubezzz | Diablo swears a bit | Sep 21 20:51 |
| trmanco | looks like it's working | Sep 21 20:51 |
| schestowitz | He can avoid it | Sep 21 20:51 |
| MinceR | for instance, it considers words that aren't swearing | Sep 21 20:51 |
| cubezzz | he'll probably get himself kicked | Sep 21 20:51 |
| finalzone | btw, schestowiz, could you fix the logging comment? I am unable to post there | Sep 21 20:51 |
| schestowitz | If he knows there's a smackbot he would | Sep 21 20:51 |
| MinceR | also, it will simply trigger people to work around it if they're aware | Sep 21 20:51 |
| trmanco | remove the op and it won't kick :-P | Sep 21 20:51 |
| finalzone | just dropping email as I have to log out | Sep 21 20:51 |
| MinceR | otherwise it will kick wellmeaning people | Sep 21 20:51 |
| finalzone | latewr | Sep 21 20:51 |
| schestowitz | finalzone: where? | Sep 21 20:51 |
| schestowitz | [20:51] <finalzone> btw, schestowiz, could you fix the logging comment? I am unable to post there | Sep 21 20:51 |
| MinceR | and in any case, leaving channel keeping to bots instead of real people is a bad idea | Sep 21 20:51 |
| schestowitz | Where's that? | Sep 21 20:51 |
| trmanco | I can also do this | Sep 21 20:51 |
| trmanco | !kick trmanco | Sep 21 20:51 |
| *phIRCe has kicked trmanco from #boycottnovell (Don't take this personally!) | Sep 21 20:51 | |
| *trmanco (n=trmanco@drwxr-xr-x.org) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:52 | |
| MinceR | as for trolls getting themselves kicked, why don't you simply ban them permanently? | Sep 21 20:52 |
| finalzone | just the log in, I registered but there is no comment field | Sep 21 20:52 |
| *_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 20:52 | |
| trmanco | MinceR: care to try and kick me? | Sep 21 20:52 |
| schestowitz | Hey, _goblin | Sep 21 20:52 |
| trmanco | with the bot | Sep 21 20:52 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: trmanco is doing a coding exercise | Sep 21 20:52 |
| schestowitz | It might as well be valuable | Sep 21 20:52 |
| trmanco | yeah | Sep 21 20:52 |
| trmanco | I've learned some neat stuff | Sep 21 20:53 |
| trmanco | OOP and sockets | Sep 21 20:53 |
| schestowitz | For a bot to kick carries no guilt or blame for a real person | Sep 21 20:53 |
| finalzone | schestowiz, gotta go, see you later | Sep 21 20:53 |
| schestowitz | It's made a simple rule | Sep 21 20:53 |
| _goblin | hi! | Sep 21 20:53 |
| schestowitz | finalzone: thanks | Sep 21 20:53 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: it's a misguided idea | Sep 21 20:53 |
| _goblin | hey I think Hashwindows has deleted my RT's | Sep 21 20:53 |
| *finalzone has quit ("Page closed") | Sep 21 20:53 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: we'll see | Sep 21 20:53 |
| MinceR | we don't have to see, i can already explain why it is | Sep 21 20:53 |
| MinceR | btw, simple rules can also be simply evaded | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | It gives a reason for kicking | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: evaded is OK | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | if peopkle trype s**t | Sep 21 20:54 |
| MinceR | i really don't get you | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Better than the explicit word | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Not me | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: :-p | Sep 21 20:54 |
| MinceR | you don't want to ban trolls but you want automatic, frivolous reasons for kicking | Sep 21 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Wasn't my idea... | Sep 21 20:54 |
| MinceR | it doesn't matter whose idea it is | Sep 21 20:55 |
| *phIRCe has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 21 20:56 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @ml2mst Hey! Great new pic! ...Hope you are well, havent heard from you in a while! Regards... | Sep 21 20:59 | |
| _goblin | schestowitz: Roy, you there? | Sep 21 21:00 |
| *_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Sep 21 21:05 | |
| schestowitz | Yes | Sep 21 21:06 |
| _goblin | hi | Sep 21 21:07 |
| _goblin | right, its about the BN Logs.... | Sep 21 21:07 |
| _goblin | since Moshe et al like to trawl them and often quote them incorrectly....why make it easy for the trolls.? | Sep 21 21:08 |
| _goblin | why not simply remove them, then the trolls will be forced to come into the channel and "monitor" real time.... | Sep 21 21:08 |
| _goblin | why make it easy for them? | Sep 21 21:08 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Back from a job interview. Which ran from 6pm-7:30pm. Pretty cool, fingers crossed! | Sep 21 21:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft and the #OLPC Strategy, as Interpreted by a Reader http://bit.ly/yLuVW | Sep 21 21:21 | |
| schestowitz | Online Video Mocked by Doogie Howser at Emmys < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/21/online-video-mocked-by-doogie-howser-at-emmys > | Sep 21 21:23 |
| schestowitz | ^^Emmy chaired by Microsoft VP | Sep 21 21:23 |
| cubezzz | re: OPLC, one can still get the linux version I asume? | Sep 21 21:24 |
| cubezzz | sorry, OLPC | Sep 21 21:25 |
| schestowitz | mib_3HAL is MUTEX under another nymshift | Sep 21 21:25 |
| schestowitz | Pretending to be mib user even though mib is banned in freenode | Sep 21 21:25 |
| MinceR | do what must be done | Sep 21 21:25 |
| schestowitz | CPE-121-219-46-253.vic.bigpond.net.au | Sep 21 21:25 |
| MinceR | do not hesitate | Sep 21 21:25 |
| cubezzz | boot time? :) | Sep 21 21:25 |
| MinceR | show no mercy | Sep 21 21:25 |
| *schestowitz has kicked mib_3HAL from #boycottnovell (User terminated!) | Sep 21 21:26 | |
| schestowitz | cubezzz: yes | Sep 21 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Yes to Linux OLPC I mean | Sep 21 21:26 |
| schestowitz | Omniture And comScore Partner On Web Analytics http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/21/omniture-and-comscore-partner-on-web-analytics comScore is also buddies with Microsoft | Sep 21 21:29 |
| cubezzz | ok, my next question is does anyone do chip design on Linux? :) | Sep 21 21:29 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 21 21:29 | |
| cubezzz | I don't see any reason why not | Sep 21 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Sep 21 21:30 |
| schestowitz | Intel does | Sep 21 21:30 |
| cubezzz | so really the wintel thing is over | Sep 21 21:31 |
| schestowitz | Nope. | Sep 21 21:32 |
| schestowitz | See notebooks collusions | Sep 21 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Very recently | Sep 21 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Intel still commits many crimes | Sep 21 21:32 |
| schestowitz | and it's advertising Vista 7 now | Sep 21 21:32 |
| fewa | High up Intel people have publicly criticized Microsoft's business strategy | Sep 21 21:32 |
| schestowitz | Dell to acquire Perot for $3.9bn < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8267054.stm > | Sep 21 21:33 |
| fewa | but yeah, they are still best buds | Sep 21 21:33 |
| schestowitz | So they will die /together/ | Sep 21 21:33 |
| schestowitz | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8267366.stm http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2009/09/fcc-announces-plan-to-protect-access-to.html | Sep 21 21:33 |
| schestowitz | Google 'laaaaawbid' for it | Sep 21 21:33 |
| schestowitz | Not bad in this case | Sep 21 21:34 |
| schestowitz | Bad for telecoms maybe | Sep 21 21:34 |
| *amarsh04 (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-51-243.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 21:37 | |
| schestowitz | EU Commission publishes Intel findings < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1534180/eu-commission-publishes-intel-findings > | Sep 21 21:38 |
| fewa | schestowitz, bad for _entrenched_ telecoms | Sep 21 21:39 |
| fewa | not new telecoms that hope to compete | Sep 21 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Or co-opetition | Sep 21 21:40 |
| fewa | and only bad in the sense that we wish to promote real competition | Sep 21 21:40 |
| schestowitz | The word from Ray Noorda | Sep 21 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Pretend to compete but cooperate, collude | Sep 21 21:40 |
| fewa | real seperation of interests | Sep 21 21:40 |
| schestowitz | That's how US telecom works | Sep 21 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Shard monopoly, duo/til-poly | Sep 21 21:40 |
| fewa | all the big dogs want the internet too look like TV | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Yahoo! is promiscuous | Sep 21 21:41 |
| fewa | corrupt, single-minded | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | First running to Google, then to Micorsoft | Sep 21 21:41 |
| cubezzz | ironic, after the AT&T break-up | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Yang at least had taste | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | He went to Google | Sep 21 21:41 |
| fewa | Yahoo! Japan is powerful | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Marissa | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | :-) | Sep 21 21:41 |
| fewa | Google can't touch Yahoo in japan | Sep 21 21:41 |
| schestowitz | Bartz just went after the fat sweaty man | Sep 21 21:41 |
| fewa | and Net Neutrality assures that the consumers always have access to the best product available | Sep 21 21:42 |
| fewa | and access to all the viewpoints | Sep 21 21:42 |
| fewa | it allows something that was never possible | Sep 21 21:42 |
| fewa | instant access to billions of people on the globe: _direct_ | Sep 21 21:42 |
| fewa | That is a big threat to those who control through propaganda | Sep 21 21:43 |
| fewa | "necessary" illusions | Sep 21 21:43 |
| schestowitz | Necessary to whom? | Sep 21 21:43 |
| schestowitz | Our beloves Nannymasters? | Sep 21 21:43 |
| schestowitz | *beloved | Sep 21 21:43 |
| fewa | those that bank on the preservation of democratic deficiets | Sep 21 21:44 |
| cubezzz | National Semi-conductor also makes cpus I think | Sep 21 21:45 |
| cubezzz | if you don't like Intel :) | Sep 21 21:45 |
| _goblin | sorry, off topic for a second, but for any old timers here (myself included) this will bring a tear to your eyes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8261272.stm | Sep 21 21:45 |
| fewa | ARM, AMD, HP, IBM, VIA, Hitachi | Sep 21 21:46 |
| fewa | Intel like ISA-lockin | Sep 21 21:46 |
| fewa | *likes | Sep 21 21:46 |
| schestowitz | i like this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/21/fcc_boss_net_neutrality_rules/ | Sep 21 21:47 |
| schestowitz | FCC is still carrying a bad track record | Sep 21 21:47 |
| cubezzz | there was this strange 3d game I remember called Sentry | Sep 21 21:47 |
| _goblin | mmmm can't remember that.... | Sep 21 21:47 |
| _goblin | remember elite 2 frontier.. | Sep 21 21:47 |
| _goblin | that was good. | Sep 21 21:47 |
| schestowitz | My first 'console' was a nintendo clone | Sep 21 21:48 |
| schestowitz | There were so many at the same | Sep 21 21:48 |
| cubezzz | I'm old enough to remember arcades having electro-mechanical pinball :) | Sep 21 21:48 |
| schestowitz | You could get them for like $50 at one point | Sep 21 21:48 |
| cubezzz | video games were b&w only | Sep 21 21:48 |
| schestowitz | The games went on cassettes you could swap with friends | Sep 21 21:49 |
| *sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 21:49 | |
| fewa | I believe it is the FCC that pronounced the internet as not a common carrier | Sep 21 21:49 |
| sebsebseb | hi | Sep 21 21:49 |
| fewa | sorry, but that is a judge's decision | Sep 21 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Hey, sebsebsebsebseb | Sep 21 21:49 |
| fewa | and common carrier applies to Telecoms, Parcel delivery, physical trasportation of people | Sep 21 21:49 |
| schestowitz | {seb}^3 | Sep 21 21:49 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah not five of them | Sep 21 21:49 |
| _goblin | offtopic again: I am pleased RMS said what he did about Icaza.....I was fed up with Icaza playing the innocent victim... | Sep 21 21:50 |
| fewa | its the neutral network of common law | Sep 21 21:50 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: lines were drawn after Miguel joined the anti-FSF | Sep 21 21:50 |
| schestowitz | he went to CodePlex, the anti-Christ of FS | Sep 21 21:50 |
| schestowitz | The narrative that says the FSF drive him away is wrong | Sep 21 21:51 |
| cubezzz | what did RMS do? | Sep 21 21:51 |
| cubezzz | or say | Sep 21 21:51 |
| _goblin | He called Icaza a traitor | Sep 21 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Miguel and Nat were there at Microsoft at the start | Sep 21 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Prior to this he did some UNIX work, so I'm not sure | Sep 21 21:51 |
| schestowitz | But opportunism with the FSF does not pay off, money-wise | Sep 21 21:51 |
| schestowitz | Stephane told me that Miguel had made good money by bending over to Voleism | Sep 21 21:52 |
| _goblin | Icaza had better get than Opensource czar job at Microsoft.......after siding with MS theres very little support for him here (IMO) | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | I'm afraid that Microsoft will bribe VERY WELL someone respected from FOSS to be its new pseudopen source puppet | Sep 21 21:53 |
| _goblin | RMS? | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Hahaha. | Sep 21 21:53 |
| _goblin | wonder what price? | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Well, they tried ESR | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | He declines rudely | Sep 21 21:53 |
| _goblin | thats a question for RMS........How much would MS have to offer you? | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Guess who tried to recruit ESR? | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Stephen Walli | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | I don't trust the man | Sep 21 21:53 |
| schestowitz | He's one of their turncoats | Sep 21 21:54 |
| schestowitz | Walking along with FOSS people and poisoning them against GPLv3 and t/w Microsoft | Sep 21 21:54 |
| schestowitz | RMS is not for sale | Sep 21 21:54 |
| _goblin | I was of course being flippant.... | Sep 21 21:54 |
| schestowitz | He's eccentric enough to prefer dying for his cause | Sep 21 21:54 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: I know | Sep 21 21:54 |
| _goblin | having said that....does "everyone have a price" | Sep 21 21:55 |
| schestowitz | But even if Microsoft offered him a billion, he'd not be moved | Sep 21 21:55 |
| _goblin | could debate for a rainy day.... | Sep 21 21:55 |
| schestowitz | He doesn't care for material things | Sep 21 21:55 |
| cubezzz | _globin, no I don't think so | Sep 21 21:55 |
| _goblin | mmm | Sep 21 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Maybe Microsoft could buy him by putting his family members on a cross and demand that he does it | Sep 21 21:55 |
| schestowitz | Waterboarding RMS would not have him agree to a job at Microsoft | Sep 21 21:55 |
| schestowitz | He's true to his cause | Sep 21 21:56 |
| schestowitz | No false confession :-) :-) | Sep 21 21:56 |
| schestowitz | I'm of course being sarcastic here. | Sep 21 21:56 |
| *magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 21 21:56 | |
| _goblin | did you see my suggestion re: BN IRC logs? | Sep 21 21:56 |
| schestowitz | I'm starting to hate The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/21/ubuntu_lucid_lynx/ | Sep 21 21:57 |
| schestowitz | They have too many Microsoft lackeys in there | Sep 21 21:57 |
| schestowitz | Like Kelly and Gavin | Sep 21 21:57 |
| schestowitz | Look at the "freeloaders" weasel word | Sep 21 21:57 |
| schestowitz | Typical. | Sep 21 21:57 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: yes, I'm OK with how things are | Sep 21 21:58 |
| _goblin | ah | Sep 21 21:58 |
| schestowitz | The trolls fig up nothing | Sep 21 21:58 |
| schestowitz | If they fabricate, they can do it with other things | Sep 21 21:58 |
| _goblin | yeah fair enough.... | Sep 21 21:58 |
| schestowitz | They don't even need sources | Sep 21 21:58 |
| schestowitz | They plant lies and then repeat them | Sep 21 21:59 |
| schestowitz | Funny thing is, by trolling us they do the Barbara Streisand effect | Sep 21 21:59 |
| _goblin | sing badly? | Sep 21 21:59 |
| schestowitz | They only increase interest in what we say by trying to ridicule something | Sep 21 21:59 |
| _goblin | ah | Sep 21 22:00 |
| schestowitz | They do themselves a disservice that way | Sep 21 22:00 |
| schestowitz | Streisand effect is more to do with censorship | Sep 21 22:00 |
| _goblin | lol.... | Sep 21 22:00 |
| schestowitz | Mike Masnick coined it like 4 years ago | Sep 21 22:00 |
| _goblin | sorry....misinterpreted what you meant... | Sep 21 22:00 |
| schestowitz | When people DDoSed the site, one may argue it added to mystique. But it was really just a PITA. | Sep 21 22:01 |
| schestowitz | We haven't had DDOS in months | Sep 21 22:01 |
| schestowitz | Trolling down sharply too | Sep 21 22:01 |
| _goblin | wasn't linux-tracker being hit too? | Sep 21 22:01 |
| schestowitz | Site traffic still fine, just less noise | Sep 21 22:01 |
| schestowitz | _goblin: it was, yes | Sep 21 22:01 |
| _goblin | I may well do a multiple deployment of the next Ubuntu LTS..... | Sep 21 22:03 |
| _goblin | been very happy with my stripped 8.04LTS on one of my rigs.....not a moments problem. | Sep 21 22:03 |
| schestowitz | Try Kubuntu 9.10 | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | It's good | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Mand 2010 is coming also | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | With the KDE version that I like | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | Fedora still uses GNOME by default, so I leave it aside | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | OpenSUSE will be kDE by default | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | But... well, it's SUSE | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | benJIman would not approve. | Sep 21 22:04 |
| schestowitz | At the beginning of next year (h1) BN will have posted 10,000 articles (!!) | Sep 21 22:05 |
| *sebsebseb lol at people who hate me highlighing them, that's else where | Sep 21 22:07 | |
| schestowitz | It can be annoying if there is no reason | Sep 21 22:07 |
| schestowitz | it triggers alerts | Sep 21 22:08 |
| schestowitz | Alerts in konversation I still have some problems with | Sep 21 22:08 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: why? | Sep 21 22:08 |
| _goblin | still...I'll have Wolvix on my main rig... | Sep 21 22:08 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Jimmy Wales on Huffington Post (an objectivist on a liberal website!) http://is.gd/3xrCl #wikipedia | Sep 21 22:08 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 22:09:35 2009 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 22:09:35 2009 | ||
| sebsebseb | _goblin: Karmic on my computer | Sep 21 22:09 |
| schestowitz | I'm gonna mix xchat and konv for alerts | Sep 21 22:10 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: what are the alerts?? | Sep 21 22:10 |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 22:11:12 2009 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 21 22:11:12 2009 | ||
| _goblin | although only one of my rigs runs Ubuntu I found the best performance with heron. | Sep 21 22:11 |
| _goblin | I was recently impressed with (Slackware)Absolute.....very Ubuntuish in its install...... | Sep 21 22:12 |
| _goblin | its the first slackware distro Ive had a 100% flawless install. | Sep 21 22:13 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard Jimmy Wales is refuting the scandalous ways the Mass Media tries to falsely pronounce Wikipedia's death at any oppurtunity | Sep 21 22:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard Jimmy Wales is refuting the scandalous ways the #MassMedia tries to falsely pronounce Wikipedia's death at any opportunity | Sep 21 22:19 | |
| MinceR | it isn't dead, it's only dying :> | Sep 21 22:24 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Just read the Internet Freedom Preservation Act of 2009 #hr3458 Real #NetNeutrality that will preserve a vibrant #web http://ur1.ca/bzcj | Sep 21 22:26 | |
| *zilog (n=cheese@121.218.46.253) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 21 22:29 | |
| wallclimber | Do you really think wikipedia will die? i know the political stuff gets messed up, but in so many other areas it's very useful, if only for a starting place to find more stuff. | Sep 21 22:29 |
| wallclimber | maybe it will just change hands? | Sep 21 22:30 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @scientes Jimmy Wales is refuting the scandalous ways the Mass Media tries to falsely pronounce Wikipedia's death at any oppurtunity | Sep 21 22:30 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @schestowitz here is the article about #wikipedia Jimmy Wales http://ur1.ca/c3g7 | Sep 21 22:32 | |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: the press will die sooner | Sep 21 22:36 |
| wallclimber | I think so too... | Sep 21 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Then not many sufferers (From WIkipedia) will be left to whine about it | Sep 21 22:36 |
| fewa | See t | Sep 21 22:36 |
| MinceR | i think what WP does could be done so much better | Sep 21 22:36 |
| fewa | thats why net neutrality is soo friggen important | Sep 21 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Wait until teachers get replaced | Sep 21 22:37 |
| fewa | MinceR, many people are improving | Sep 21 22:37 |
| fewa | it | Sep 21 22:37 |
| schestowitz | fewa gave me pointers to some good lecture from MIT | Sep 21 22:37 |
| fewa | but many do not have technical skills | Sep 21 22:37 |
| MinceR | yet it's a political battlefield for the most part | Sep 21 22:37 |
| fewa | schestowitz, which one? | Sep 21 22:37 |
| schestowitz | Good for studying biology while away from the computer | Sep 21 22:37 |
| MinceR | whoever has the most friends among the mods is "right" | Sep 21 22:37 |
| MinceR | and his agenda gets pushed | Sep 21 22:37 |
| fewa | ahh, yes schools realize information cannot be rationed | Sep 21 22:37 |
| schestowitz | And then daemon starts whining | Sep 21 22:37 |
| MinceR | imo it should be more like everything2 | Sep 21 22:38 |
| schestowitz | How does it work at Britannica? | Sep 21 22:38 |
| schestowitz | Where does their consensus come from? | Sep 21 22:38 |
| schestowitz | It's the same story | Sep 21 22:38 |
| fewa | schestowitz, its heresay, but ive read about people who have written articles in there are praise wikipedia, cause they see that "real" encyclopedias dont have high standards | Sep 21 22:38 |
| schestowitz | Not that.... | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Or not ONLY that.... | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Ency. are ouf of date | Sep 21 22:39 |
| fewa | schestowitz, look at britanica 1911 | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Watch what they say about Michael Jackson | Sep 21 22:39 |
| fewa | when it was written it may not be apparent, but now we can see the _heavy_ class bias | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Compare to updates within minutes of announcement of his death AND..... REFERENCES | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | That's where Wikipedia can rule | Sep 21 22:39 |
| fewa | its not just bigotry | Sep 21 22:39 |
| schestowitz | Not just Web links, but books (literature) too | Sep 21 22:40 |
| fewa | towards other places and people | Sep 21 22:40 |
| schestowitz | Teachers fear the Web, not just Wikipedia | Sep 21 22:40 |
| fewa | its like the church vs the press | Sep 21 22:40 |
| schestowitz | They also blame 'google' for lazy students who search for answers rather than page through journals | Sep 21 22:40 |
| fewa | "they blame people who spend their time productively" | Sep 21 22:40 |
| fewa | :P | Sep 21 22:40 |
| wallclimber | 9 | Sep 21 22:41 |
| fewa | or that get around their stupid assignments based on information scarcity | Sep 21 22:41 |
| wallclimber | lol...never clean your keyboard when you have xchat open | Sep 21 22:41 |
| trmanco | http://oracle.com.edgesuite.net/ivt/4000/8104/9236/11789/lobby_external_no_slides/default.htm?cid=928322 | Sep 21 22:41 |
| trmanco | ahhh geeze | Sep 21 22:41 |
| fewa | hmm there was a case where a school sued because a CS student open-sourced his assignment | Sep 21 22:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Is this the first #Linux radio advertising campaign? http://is.gd/3xv2t | Sep 21 22:45 | |
| fewa | This doesn't make much sense http://arstechnica.com/telecom/news/2009/09/reform-groups-protect-free-speech-but-save-the-red-lion.ars | Sep 21 22:48 |
| fewa | they are saying that their isn't a scarcity of broadcast spectrum | Sep 21 22:48 |
| fewa | _Of course there is_ | Sep 21 22:48 |
| zilog | Australia's largets Entertainment equipment company JB HiFI selling Linux | Sep 21 22:48 |
| zilog | http://www.jbhifi.com.au/search/?cx=008101688555493051597%3A-lqrjvda6es&cof=FORID%3A11&ie=UTF-8&sa=Search&q=linux#1047 | Sep 21 22:48 |
| fewa | otherwise companies wouldn't pay billions of dollars for the right to use it | Sep 21 22:48 |
| fewa | and hundreds of million lobbying congress so their can keep their corporate welfare | Sep 21 22:48 |
| fewa | Commercial radio pays no fees to the FCC, it rides the back of the public's spectrum | Sep 21 22:49 |
| fewa | ars is taking a story that is at least a year old | Sep 21 22:49 |
| fewa | with the Fox vs. FCC | Sep 21 22:50 |
| fewa | and trying to tie in a argument that makes no sense | Sep 21 22:50 |
| fewa | a limited resource always has some scarcity | Sep 21 22:50 |
| fewa | Its the classic trick | Sep 21 22:51 |
| fewa | start the article by begging the question on something which is far from accepted, and then only clarifying at the end, where few readers get to | Sep 21 22:52 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: can you disconnect keyboards in Windows and then put them back in? In older versions of Windows it did not work | Sep 21 22:52 |
| fewa | as a way of telling people what to think | Sep 21 22:52 |
| schestowitz | It's useful if you clean keyboards | Sep 21 22:52 |
| fewa | you can only reconnect USB keyboards wallclimber | Sep 21 22:53 |
| fewa | PS/2 can only be connected at boot | Sep 21 22:53 |
| fewa | *before | Sep 21 22:53 |
| schestowitz | Still??? | Sep 21 22:53 |
| fewa | yeah | Sep 21 22:53 |
| schestowitz | They haven't fixed that in Windows? | Sep 21 22:53 |
| fewa | even in Linux, at least with my motherboard | Sep 21 22:53 |
| fewa | it was designed that way from the start | Sep 21 22:53 |
| schestowitz | Works fine with mine | Sep 21 22:54 |
| schestowitz | Even with Linux 2.6.26 | Sep 21 22:54 |
| schestowitz | And much older ones | Sep 21 22:54 |
| fewa | you have to design a new standard, i.e. usb, to get hot plug | Sep 21 22:54 |
| fewa | well, then it depends on motherboard/BIOS | Sep 21 22:54 |
| fewa | cause it doesn't work in my 2.6.30 on this computer, and i've never seen it work on a windows computer | Sep 21 22:54 |
| fewa | keyboards are going usb anyways | Sep 21 22:54 |
| fewa | lots of laptop keyboards are USB | Sep 21 22:54 |
| schestowitz | My ain't | Sep 21 22:55 |
| fewa | and lots of new comps | Sep 21 22:55 |
| schestowitz | *Mine | Sep 21 22:55 |
| schestowitz | Some are. | Sep 21 22:55 |
| schestowitz | Not many that I've seen, almost none | Sep 21 22:55 |
| schestowitz | Still purpose and green ps2 | Sep 21 22:55 |
| fewa | I like PS/2 cause lots of BIOS's have issues with USB emulation at the BIOS level | Sep 21 22:55 |
| fewa | but not hot swapable | Sep 21 22:56 |
| schestowitz | Monitors that are USB-powered are interesting animals | Sep 21 22:56 |
| fewa | eeekkkk! | Sep 21 22:56 |
| fewa | usb is not much of a power source | Sep 21 22:56 |
| fewa | nor does it have much bandwith | Sep 21 22:56 |
| schestowitz | Neither are others | Sep 21 22:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Always remember to have a "holy cow what is that" demo set up on your Linux netbook. http://is.gd/3xvVr | Sep 21 22:56 | |
| fewa | Power over Ethernet would have been way superior than USB from the beginning | Sep 21 22:57 |
| fewa | 100m+ range, way faster bandwidths, cheap cheap cheap | Sep 21 22:57 |
| fewa | and world-addressability, instead of just local | Sep 21 22:57 |
| fewa | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7398680103951126462# | Sep 21 22:57 |
| schestowitz | Internet Payday Lender Fined $1 Million By FT < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/21/internet-payday-lender-fined-1-million-by-ftc > | Sep 21 22:58 |
| fewa | Stuart Cheshire's zeroconf protocol is standard in all the big GNU/Linux distros now | Sep 21 22:58 |
| fewa | avahi | Sep 21 22:58 |
| schestowitz | http://techdirt.com/articles/20090920/2233226253.shtml | Sep 21 23:00 |
| schestowitz | OBAMAA shills for the big boys again...... | Sep 21 23:00 |
| schestowitz | Obama Open To Helping Newspapers, To Avoid Reporting Becoming 'All Blogosphere' < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090920/1829336247.shtml > | Sep 21 23:00 |
| schestowitz | Shame on him. | Sep 21 23:00 |
| trmanco | http://ibuildings.com/blog/archives/1571-PHP-enters-top-3-of-most-popular-programming-languages.html | Sep 21 23:00 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] heh, o Skype é programado em Pascal... | Sep 21 23:04 | |
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| satipera | Are any of the BN big cheeses awake? | Sep 21 23:09 |
| satipera | Site admin etc. | Sep 21 23:09 |
| satipera | I had a suggestion to make but I will wait until the powers that be are here. | Sep 21 23:11 |
| oiaohm | Site runner is schestowitz satipera | Sep 21 23:12 |
| oiaohm | we also have the hosting guy in here as well from time to time satipera | Sep 21 23:13 |
| schestowitz | Hey, satipera | Sep 21 23:13 |
| satipera | yes I know he is but I was under the impression he had help from a few other people, yourself included. | Sep 21 23:13 |
| schestowitz | satipera: yes | Sep 21 23:13 |
| satipera | Ah hello Schestowitz | Sep 21 23:13 |
| schestowitz | We do a lot of groupthink here | Sep 21 23:13 |
| satipera | Yes that is good | Sep 21 23:14 |
| *gargoyle-grin has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 21 23:14 | |
| satipera | I was just reading your article on Zune and Widows mobile | Sep 21 23:14 |
| schestowitz | [23:11] <satipera> I had a suggestion to make but I will wait until the powers that be are here. | Sep 21 23:14 |
| satipera | Yes,just getting to it | Sep 21 23:14 |
| oiaohm | I provide schestowitz will advice on how to handle problems satipera. | Sep 21 23:15 |
| oiaohm | But I don't do anything myself other than provide the advice satipera | Sep 21 23:15 |
| oiaohm | Darn I have word swap today. | Sep 21 23:16 |
| satipera | I like the qoutes that you put at the end of the articles sometimes. The one I was looking at for this article was “If you can’t make it good, at least make it look good.” | Sep 21 23:16 |
| schestowitz | The People’s Republic of Google < http://www.cringely.com/2009/09/the-peoples-republic-of-google/ > | Sep 21 23:16 |
| satipera | Oiaohm ,okay I see. | Sep 21 23:17 |
| schestowitz | satipera: I keep forgetting to put more quotes | Sep 21 23:17 |
| schestowitz | There's plenty of good stuff I've not used yet | Sep 21 23:17 |
| schestowitz | And more can be brought up for use | Sep 21 23:17 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Check out: Tomorrow Will Never Come ........they put me in mind a little of Graveworm..http://tinyurl.com/n2ggkz #metal #mp3 | Sep 21 23:17 | |
| oiaohm | That is something I have been meaning to ask is there a list of the quotes around schestowitz to make a BN fortunes | Sep 21 23:17 |
| schestowitz | The guys from BIllWatch gave me the DB | Sep 21 23:17 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yes, it's not formatted for fortune though | Sep 21 23:18 |
| schestowitz | I keep a file called quotes from which I paste. I search it in Kate | Sep 21 23:18 |
| schestowitz | I can mail it to you | Sep 21 23:18 |
| oiaohm | Some day I will ask for it. I have a caching server to design. schestowitzA | Sep 21 23:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @scientes yeah, it's about the complete bollocks the press ran about Wikipedia in a slow news month. the Time article was the last straw. | Sep 21 23:19 | |
| satipera | Ilike the qoutes and it works very well. My suggestion is to quote the actual source. It only needs a number at the end of the quote and the source can be buried at the bottom of the page. | Sep 21 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Time is a HUGE shill for Big Business. | Sep 21 23:22 |
| schestowitz | satipera: people can google for it | Sep 21 23:22 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard, @scientes Time even have one of Gates' cronies from the Foundation (head's husband) 'plant' self-congratulatory stuff there | Sep 21 23:22 | |
| satipera | This stops the quotes being accused of being taken out of context ( like film companies using one word quotes from newspaper reviews ) | Sep 21 23:23 |
| schestowitz | True. | Sep 21 23:23 |
| satipera | Just a suggestion | Sep 21 23:23 |
| oiaohm | Good suggestion. | Sep 21 23:24 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Makes Changes to MVP Program http://www.activewin.com/awin/comments.asp?HeadlineIndex=47893&Group=1 | Sep 21 23:24 |
| satipera | I am off to bed I have a hangover to prepare for :) | Sep 21 23:24 |
| wallclimber | So that's why Bill G gets his picture on the cover of Time so often... | Sep 21 23:24 |
| oiaohm | It also avoids us having people pissed off about miss quotes that can sometime cause trouble. We have had enough of that as well. satipera | Sep 21 23:25 |
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| wallclimber | my favorite was the one with Bono looming ominously between Bill and Melinda...what was THAT all about...strange image. | Sep 21 23:26 |
| wallclimber | a little creepy | Sep 21 23:26 |
| schestowitz | Hahaha. Vista 7 head is busy working on a book. | Sep 21 23:27 |
| schestowitz | I guess he doesn't find Vista 7 to be a priority | Sep 21 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Other heads jumped ship | Sep 21 23:27 |
| oiaohm | Ok what does the activewin site say schestowitz all I am getting is vbscript errors. | Sep 21 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Will Poole, JimAll, others..... | Sep 21 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Valentine also...... | Sep 21 23:27 |
| schestowitz | Windows is lacking leadership. It's down to marketing now. | Sep 21 23:28 |
| schestowitz | http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/09/microsoft_windows_president_sinofsky_working_on_business_book.html?ana=from_rss | Sep 21 23:28 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: they cut MVP benefits | Sep 21 23:28 |
| fewa | <schestowitz> Windows is lacking leadership. It's down to marketing now. | Sep 21 23:28 |
| fewa | yarp | Sep 21 23:28 |
| schestowitz | No more kickbacks to their compensated 'friends' | Sep 21 23:28 |
| fewa | Alchin say this coming long ago | Sep 21 23:29 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: yes, I remember that | Sep 21 23:29 |
| schestowitz | It must have cost him a Fortune (mind case) | Sep 21 23:29 |
| schestowitz | fewa: "LH [Longhorn] is a pig and I don't see any solution to this problem. If we are to rise to the challenge of Linux..." --JimAll | Sep 21 23:30 |
| oiaohm | http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11153 Ok myth in this. For business I never send doc or xls to customers due to Office version differences alone you cannot depend on it printing right. | Sep 21 23:30 |
| wallclimber | Remember the one about his 12 rules for success (or something like that)? | Sep 21 23:30 |
| oiaohm | yet he claims need to support Office. | Sep 21 23:30 |
| schestowitz | Zimbra is saved..... | Sep 21 23:31 |
| schestowitz | "Has Yahoo's acquisition of Zimbra failed? All Things Digital reports that Zimbra, an open-source collaboration server company acquired by Yahoo in 2007 for $350 million, is being actively shopped around to potential buyers. If so, it's a failure of Yahoo to go enterprise, and not a failure of Zimbra's technology. " | Sep 21 23:31 |
| schestowitz | Zimbra sale a sign Yahoo finally understands itself | Sep 21 23:31 |
| wallclimber | about 2 years ago I flat refused to accept word docs for any reason. | Sep 21 23:31 |
| wallclimber | people grumbled for a while, but nobody even bothers to try sending them anymore... | Sep 21 23:32 |
| oiaohm | Personally I find kplato better than ms project. Sooner it runs everywhere the better. | Sep 21 23:32 |
| oiaohm | Ok so you did not add a auto return rule. | Sep 21 23:33 |
| schestowitz | http://kara.allthingsd.com/20090921/yahoos-adds-zimbra-to-the-garage-sale-as-it-tries-to-shed-what-isnt-you/ | Sep 21 23:33 |
| oiaohm | To you mail server. | Sep 21 23:33 |
| oiaohm | With instructions how to produce a PDF. | Sep 21 23:33 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: how do you handle formatting? | Sep 21 23:33 |
| oiaohm | Due to this document being at risk of being miss printed it has been returned. | Sep 21 23:33 |
| schestowitz | TeX stays consistent for ages, so it's good for preservation | Sep 21 23:34 |
| wallclimber | with page layout software, InDesign, Scribus, or (shudder) sometimes Quark (if the printshop insists) | Sep 21 23:34 |
| oiaohm | PDF is also constant. | Sep 21 23:34 |
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| oiaohm | ODF still has some MS like doc issues. | Sep 21 23:35 |
| bhuey | hello | Sep 21 23:35 |
| oiaohm | But less than doc. | Sep 21 23:35 |
| oiaohm | Hi bhuey | Sep 21 23:35 |
| wallclimber | people have especially learned to never, ever, ever send anything in Publisher formats... | Sep 21 23:35 |
| bhuey | there was an article posted with my video on your web site | Sep 21 23:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: London gay tourist bureau opening http://notnews.today.com/?p=655 | Sep 21 23:35 | |
| fewa | oiaohm, yep, and MS "couldn't" support their own Excel formula language | Sep 21 23:35 |
| oiaohm | Excel formula language has a stack of bugs. | Sep 21 23:36 |
| bhuey | I was wondering who to speak to about that ? | Sep 21 23:36 |
| oiaohm | MS stupiditly. | Sep 21 23:36 |
| fewa | but Microsoft specifically programmed it out of their ODF incompatibility | Sep 21 23:36 |
| fewa | because it was based upon the Excel formula language | Sep 21 23:37 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: what's up? | Sep 21 23:37 |
| oiaohm | Openoffice formula language is close to Excel but does not do bug to bug compadiblity fewa | Sep 21 23:37 |
| fewa | yes yes | Sep 21 23:37 |
| oiaohm | So MS would have to fix there language. | Sep 21 23:37 |
| oiaohm | So it was ODF. | Sep 21 23:38 |
| oiaohm | So ms just tried to destory ODF. | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | yes | Sep 21 23:38 |
| oiaohm | Yes lazy MS. | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | and they had already programmed compatibility with that part of ODF | Sep 21 23:38 |
| bhuey | bhuey: my video was put into an anti-Novell article of yours and that puts me in an awkward position | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | oiaohm, not lazyness | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | it was already programmed | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | the _took it out_ | Sep 21 23:38 |
| oiaohm | It is lazyness | Sep 21 23:38 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: my video was put into an anti-Novell article of yours and that puts me in an awkward position | Sep 21 23:38 |
| bhuey | sorry | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | to purposefully make it incompatible | Sep 21 23:38 |
| fewa | probably under direction of top people | Sep 21 23:39 |
| oiaohm | The one they had programmers still showed excel internal bugs when you run ODF test cases fewa | Sep 21 23:39 |
| bhuey | it was taken in 2004 which is a long time ago and a number of things have happened | Sep 21 23:39 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: oh. | Sep 21 23:39 |
| schestowitz | The Mono thing | Sep 21 23:39 |
| bhuey | yeah | Sep 21 23:39 |
| bhuey | I'm ex-Novell first of all so that you nkow | Sep 21 23:39 |
| schestowitz | I didn't know that | Sep 21 23:39 |
| oiaohm | Ie it was making MS office look bad fewa. Instead of fixing what was making them look bad they become incompadible fewa | Sep 21 23:39 |
| schestowitz | Does that cause issues, still? | Sep 21 23:39 |
| fewa | oiaohm, yarp, cause MS is against the wall | Sep 21 23:40 |
| bhuey | and I'd like to keep relationships nice with those folks in general even though I technically favor Java's VM over Mono implementation | Sep 21 23:40 |
| fewa | they are dead http://www.paulgraham.com/microsoft.html | Sep 21 23:40 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: don't know yet | Sep 21 23:40 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: are you asking me to bury what you said though? | Sep 21 23:40 |
| wallclimber | Their incompatibility is aimed at trying to make everybody else's software look bad...it stinks... | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | Novell is not hiring much, if that matters | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | They silently go smaller | Sep 21 23:41 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: no | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | THeir clout in their linux foundation will decline also | Sep 21 23:41 |
| oiaohm | wallclimber: its both make others look bad and hide there own problems so saving costs. | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | /their/the/ | Sep 21 23:41 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: the views I have where in 2004 | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | It's now worse, IMHO | Sep 21 23:41 |
| schestowitz | After the whole patent issue | Sep 21 23:42 |
| bhuey | althought the core aspects are technically accurate, I hold no negative feel against Mono or anything Novell does. | Sep 21 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Deal in 2006, then Microsoft in 2007 and 2009 with patents | Sep 21 23:42 |
| wallclimber | file incompatibility has been a major cause of time loss ofr my work over the years, until i finally had enough and stopped accepting any of their junk files | Sep 21 23:42 |
| wallclimber | *for* | Sep 21 23:42 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: FSF does not like Mono | Sep 21 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Red Hat also | Sep 21 23:42 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: if my video is to to be used, I'd like to be strictly as a technical criticism | Sep 21 23:42 |
| schestowitz | Red Hat removes the Mono dependency | Sep 21 23:42 |
| schestowitz | gNewSense does too | Sep 21 23:42 |
| bhuey | bhuey: because my views on Java, Mono and GNOME are more complicated than the article communicates | Sep 21 23:43 |
| bhuey | that's all | Sep 21 23:43 |
| oiaohm | wallclimber: again lazyness. When you know that before samba attacked MS for specs over there networking protocal. MS had no network test suite for there protocals. It was pure luck that networking even worked. | Sep 21 23:43 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: it doesn't suggest otherwise, does it? | Sep 21 23:43 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: which that I'm anti-Mono ? | Sep 21 23:44 |
| schestowitz | Let me see what I wrote... hold on. | Sep 21 23:44 |
| oiaohm | You have to suspect the doc format is the same wallclimber | Sep 21 23:44 |
| bhuey | I'm not anti-Mono or their CLR technology | Sep 21 23:44 |
| oiaohm | Wait for users to complain about faults then fix. Not test to make sure there are no faults. | Sep 21 23:44 |
| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/12/mono-vs-java-video/ | Sep 21 23:44 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: just clarify that as a technical criticism and I'd would prefer that it not create problems unless otherwise | Sep 21 23:45 |
| wallclimber | yes, i certainly suspect that's true... | Sep 21 23:45 |
| schestowitz | "Huey calls Miguel “misguided” (maybe guided by Microsoft), having personally met him already. He also adds that Java is a lot better than .NET and Mono. That was in 2004, a couple of years before Java was on route to becoming Free software (GPLv2)." | Sep 21 23:45 |
| bhuey | yes, I said that it was "misguided", that Java might be technically better for the open source community | Sep 21 23:45 |
| oiaohm | I am anti-Mono because paper work is not forth comming to explain legal status bhuey and some of the performance claims are crap. | Sep 21 23:45 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: I'll add an update | Sep 21 23:45 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: also, I've never met Miguel | Sep 21 23:45 |
| bhuey | only on IRC and I don't have negative feeling against him | Sep 21 23:45 |
| bhuey | nor his group | Sep 21 23:46 |
| oiaohm | Ie running faster than native because you are in memory that is not getting removed. Yet native programs are geting remove due to kernel bug. You kinda have a big advantage. | Sep 21 23:46 |
| bhuey | however, there should be clarification about what I think about GNOME, Java and Mono | Sep 21 23:46 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: what I want the community to do is actually quite a bit more complicated than what that old video communicates | Sep 21 23:46 |
| oiaohm | I guess you are like me bhuey on the legal status side bhuey | Sep 21 23:46 |
| bhuey | community=communicate | Sep 21 23:46 |
| bhuey | er, that was right the first time | Sep 21 23:47 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: which is for them to move to Objective C and glue it to the GObject run time instead of moving legacy applications over to Java or Mono | Sep 21 23:47 |
| schestowitz | I've just added an update | Sep 21 23:48 |
| bhuey | and then glue the GObject run time to the JVM | Sep 21 23:48 |
| bhuey | or something like that | Sep 21 23:48 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: because the CLR run time is so flexible, it can be a JVM as well | Sep 21 23:48 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: the other parts oft he interview are there too | Sep 21 23:48 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: that's fine | Sep 21 23:48 |
| schestowitz | I didn't mean to cause issues | Sep 21 23:49 |
| bhuey | folks the watch the interview understand it's not inflammatory | Sep 21 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Not really bhuey. CLR does not make a good JVM. | Sep 21 23:49 |
| schestowitz | Just to show that Mono does have critics | Sep 21 23:49 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: na, it was pretty amusing | Sep 21 23:49 |
| schestowitz | Technical or otherwise | Sep 21 23:49 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: right | Sep 21 23:49 |
| schestowitz | Technical issues are often raised | Sep 21 23:49 |
| schestowitz | Not patents | Sep 21 23:49 |
| schestowitz | The issue of API control | Sep 21 23:49 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: make a pure technical criticism, not a condemnation of their group | Sep 21 23:49 |
| bhuey | otherwise it can make things nasty unnecessarily | Sep 21 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Something like parrot does a better job of a mult bytecode system. | Sep 21 23:50 |
| schestowitz | I don't care about (as in mind) group (people) in this case... | Sep 21 23:50 |
| schestowitz | It's not about the people | Sep 21 23:50 |
| schestowitz | It's about the software | Sep 21 23:50 |
| schestowitz | And what it implies for Free software's direction | Sep 21 23:50 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: put the notice near the comments about Miguel, that would make things clearer | Sep 21 23:50 |
| bhuey | please | Sep 21 23:50 |
| schestowitz | Will do | Sep 21 23:50 |
| bhuey | ok thanks | Sep 21 23:50 |
| bhuey | and that my view on the matter is about moving to a different more compatible system with preexisting code | Sep 21 23:51 |
| schestowitz | I added a strikeout | Sep 21 23:51 |
| bhuey | which Mono nor Java meet | Sep 21 23:51 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: it's compatible with .NET | Sep 21 23:51 |
| bhuey | so I'm not really favoring really either actually | Sep 21 23:51 |
| schestowitz | To an extent | Sep 21 23:51 |
| schestowitz | .NET is the superset | Sep 21 23:51 |
| schestowitz | And MonoDevelop is now sort of being merged with MS VS | Sep 21 23:52 |
| bhuey | yeah, I don't care about .NET just Java of course, but I know it's limits as well | Sep 21 23:52 |
| schestowitz | On Windows-only | Sep 21 23:52 |
| schestowitz | So people get more Mono benefits _on Windows_ | Sep 21 23:52 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: thanks | Sep 21 23:52 |
| oiaohm | I have my idea for target. bhuey the bytecode engine inside a standard complier. | Sep 21 23:52 |
| oiaohm | Ie build on install. | Sep 21 23:53 |
| oiaohm | No aot no jit. | Sep 21 23:53 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: and thanks for posting that video btw. it was cute :) | Sep 21 23:53 |
| schestowitz | The past is cached | Sep 21 23:53 |
| bhuey | didn't know anybody found what I said to be interesting outside of my immediate circle of linux kernel hackers | Sep 21 23:53 |
| schestowitz | So the changes are not visible yet | Sep 21 23:53 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: that's fine | Sep 21 23:54 |
| bhuey | I can point to them the updated article if it becomes a problem | Sep 21 23:54 |
| bhuey | but thanks | Sep 21 23:54 |
| schestowitz | bhuey: there are two more here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/13/fedora-11-impressions/ http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/14/linux-multi-touch-kde/ | Sep 21 23:54 |
| schestowitz | After I had watched them I shared them | Sep 21 23:54 |
| schestowitz | You're very technical | Sep 21 23:55 |
| schestowitz | IBM Linux chief: Chasing desktop Windows a 'dead-end' < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/09/21/linuxcon_2009_sutor_keynote/ > | Sep 21 23:56 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: do work on the Linux kernel and have a broad development history | Sep 21 23:58 |
| bhuey | including game engines | Sep 21 23:58 |
| bhuey | schestowitz: those videos are fine. I said some stupid shit, but that was 5+ years ago | Sep 21 23:59 |
| bhuey | was unclear about a few things. the videos need to be updated | Sep 21 23:59 |
| bhuey | I should talk to christian about that stuff | Sep 21 23:59 |
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