IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 1st, 2009

_goblin	Adus: are you really suggesting that Google would have been ignorant of it?	Oct 01 00:00
schestowitz	trmanco: Nokia for Google	Oct 01 00:00
schestowitz	Weird	Oct 01 00:00
Adus	_goblin: Absolutely not.	Oct 01 00:00
Adus	But I think you will find that without the copyright holder issuing a takedown, in a legal sense there is no way you could argue google acted against the law.	Oct 01 00:00
schestowitz	http://www.thepirategoogle.com/	Oct 01 00:00
phIRCe	Title: Torrent File Search Using Google Custom Search - Scour the Entire Web for Bit Torrent Files .::. Size~: 0.84 KB	Oct 01 00:00
Adus	I think the key is that TPB ignored takedowns	Oct 01 00:01
_goblin	Adus: Ergo, the question would be asked, if Google knew it cached pages linking to copyrighted material, what did it do to prevent it?	Oct 01 00:01
Adus	It doesn't have to do anything. Unless it's informed by the copyright holder.	Oct 01 00:01
_goblin	Adus: Wrong....the takedown notice is not needed...I can explain why if you wish...	Oct 01 00:01
schestowitz	http://ladyada.net/make/bedazzler/	Oct 01 00:01
phIRCe	Title: Bedazzler - DIY non-lethal weaponry .::. Size~: 11.5 KB	Oct 01 00:01
_goblin	Adus: In terms of a civil case a takedown notice would be best practice.....in respect of criminal law (and a police prosecution) there is no SOP for issuing a takedown notice prior to charge....	Oct 01 00:02
Adus	_goblin: Maybe, I'm not a lawyer and presumably nor are you. Remember the burden is on proving google knowingly did it, I think it would be nearly impossible to do that without having informed them.	Oct 01 00:03
_goblin	Adus: Burden of proof in civil "balance of probabilities" in criminal "beyond all reasonable doubt"....thats why Companies would prefer a civil course IMO as its easier to prove.	Oct 01 00:04
_goblin	adus: and no Im not a lawyer....but damn close.	Oct 01 00:04
schestowitz	Judge?	Oct 01 00:06
Adus	Yes, but as you said yourself, the best practice is to issue a takedown in a civil case, presumably otherwise you'll fin it much harder to get a judgement in your favour.	Oct 01 00:06
Adus	If a criminal case has an even higher burden of proof, you think without being informed they couldn't fight it off?	Oct 01 00:06
Adus	I don't particularly like google, but I think they could plausibly deny it enough to fight off a burden of "beyond all reasonable doubt" as you could never prove they knew about it.	Oct 01 00:08
Adus	The fact me and you know they do is not enough.	Oct 01 00:09
_goblin	sorry afk	Oct 01 00:11
Adus	np	Oct 01 00:12
_goblin	adus: The take down notice has two purposes (IMO) in respect of a civil case:	Oct 01 00:12
_goblin	adus: a/ To try to get immediate removal of "offending material" with little cost...	Oct 01 00:13
_goblin	adus: b/ to strengthen the case should it reach the civil courts....and (sorry I forgot one).......a scare tactic when the cost of the case is not practicable to whats being infringed.	Oct 01 00:14
_goblin	now in respect of a criminal allegation:	Oct 01 00:14
_goblin	a take down notice has no worth (IMO) in a court of law UNLESS its issued by a government body....Warner Brothers telling you to remove Harry Potter 20 from your site does not add anything to a criminal allegation of copyright infringement, since its the Police who are responsible for the investigation and prosecution not the company...	Oct 01 00:15
_goblin	the only time where something like a takedown notice is issued:	Oct 01 00:16
Diablo-D3	except you now have the DMCA	Oct 01 00:16
_goblin	would be crimes that fall under the Harrassment Act offences where a "first instance harassment warning" is issued to highlight the allegation.	Oct 01 00:16
_goblin	or....	Oct 01 00:17
Diablo-D3	which gives, for example, Warner Brothers o make your life shitty	Oct 01 00:17
_goblin	Living off immoral earnings (running a brothel) where some forces have a SOP to issue an immediate closure notice first and then proceed with a prosecution if that is ignored.	Oct 01 00:18
_goblin	and sorry.....	Oct 01 00:18
_goblin	SOP = Service Operating Policy	Oct 01 00:18
trmanco	!quit phIRCe	Oct 01 00:19
*phIRCe has quit ("Exiting! phIRCe - I told you so!(http://bitbucket.org/trmanco/phirce/)")		Oct 01 00:19
Adus	ok	Oct 01 00:19
*Balrog (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-70-24.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 00:19
_goblin	although what I will say is that there is no case law yet that relates to anything like the TPB case in the UK......so this is very much theoretical....	Oct 01 00:20
_goblin	imo of course...	Oct 01 00:20
Adus	and presumeably the police are unlikely to go through with an investigation and the CPS is unlikely to prosecute without an initial complaint and sufficient evidence?	Oct 01 00:21
Adus	Would the ignoral of a takedown even from a company like Warner not be pretty good evidence?	Oct 01 00:21
_goblin	that IMO has changed now....	Oct 01 00:21
_goblin	FACT seem to hold the interests of many members and act as the complainant/victim.	Oct 01 00:21
cubezzz	what copyrighted material did google link to?	Oct 01 00:21
Adus	Yes, of course. But my point is still that evidence of refusal to remove content is far more likely to get the CPS to prosecute	Oct 01 00:22
_goblin	none...It was a theoretical debate about them caching TPB pages and their guilt or not of doing so...	Oct 01 00:22
_goblin	*sorry that was for Cubezzz	Oct 01 00:22
cubezzz	ah, ok thanks	Oct 01 00:23
_goblin	Adus: I would say no....the complaint is made, the investigation begins.....	Oct 01 00:23
Adus	You make it sound like the company being infringed upon has no part to play, but the CPS is unlikely to go through with prosecution without solid evidence, and my point is that the police are going to talk to the relevant parties and refusal to respond to a takedown is good evidence they were knowingly breaching the law	Oct 01 00:24
Adus	I find it hard to believe they could prove the case without that sort of evidence.	Oct 01 00:24
_goblin	adus: Unless I have made a HUGE error.....intent is not a point to prove in copyright theft.	Oct 01 00:24
_goblin	adus: TPB did not intend people to upload copyrighted torrent data (Im sure)....however they KNEW.	Oct 01 00:25
_goblin	adus: which is why I made the point about Google...	Oct 01 00:26
Adus	but TPB publicly ignored it when they were informed	Oct 01 00:26
Adus	Google haven't done that afaik	Oct 01 00:26
_goblin	adus: Matters not...I could put a copy of Harry Potter on my site intending for only people with permission from Warner Brothers to download it.....would that make me innocent? If my intent is as I say, then the take down notice CAN be ignored....I am not intending anything.	Oct 01 00:27
_goblin	*in respect of copyright theft.	Oct 01 00:28
Adus	Ah yes, but there is a distinction there.	Oct 01 00:28
Adus	intent and knowing are 2 different things	Oct 01 00:28
_goblin	very true.....although as I say I don't think intent plays a part in copyright theft....	Oct 01 00:28
Adus	Nor did I say it does.	Oct 01 00:28
_goblin	thats why Google COULD be guilty of the same thing as TPB	Oct 01 00:29
_goblin	IMO	Oct 01 00:29
schestowitz	http://jhansonxi.blogspot.com/2009/09/basic-apt-key-management.html	Oct 01 00:29
Adus	But you can't argue TPB did not knowingly do what they did, because they ignored takedown notices.	Oct 01 00:29
Adus	Google could argue that.	Oct 01 00:29
Adus	You have the prove the accused party knowingly infringed. How do you do that other than with evidence like that?	Oct 01 00:29
_goblin	Adus: yes but for that defence you would have to suggest that the massive publicity, the search result stats and users linking to the TPB went unnoticed by Google...	Oct 01 00:30
_goblin	adus: Which I think you would have a hard time arguing...	Oct 01 00:30
Adus	No, I don't think you would.	Oct 01 00:30
Adus	TPB is not illegal. Content on the site is. Google have no way of knowing which content is illegal and which is not.	Oct 01 00:30
Adus	Not all content on TPB is illegal.	Oct 01 00:30
_goblin	adus: You think a court would except that Google knew nothing of TPB or the material it had?	Oct 01 00:31
Adus	That's not what I'm suggesting.	Oct 01 00:31
Adus	I'm suggesting that TPB itself is not illegal.	Oct 01 00:31
_goblin	adus: then if intent is not an issue then that knowingly....	Oct 01 00:31
Adus	No.	Oct 01 00:31
_goblin	Adus: In respect of TPB being illegal....who knows as I can only speak for the UK....I don't think the case would have been heard in the UK....but.....	Oct 01 00:32
Adus	If TPB is not illegal, which it isn't. A torrent tracker is not illegal. How can you argue that google knowingly cached illegal content? I'm sure TPB contains perfectly legal torrents.	Oct 01 00:32
_goblin	Adus: the fact that there were allegations of monies changing hands in respect of ads on the site, could open it up to other offences.	Oct 01 00:32
Adus	Yes, well, that's another issue and not one I'm familiar with.	Oct 01 00:33
Adus	But on the argument of cache content, I don't think you can argue google has knowingly done anything wrong.	Oct 01 00:33
_goblin	adus: TPB did track legal material...and Google cached that too I presume.....	Oct 01 00:33
Adus	Exactly	Oct 01 00:33
Adus	so how are they meant to know which content is legal and which is not?	Oct 01 00:33
_goblin	adus: it would be unreasonable to expect them to know that....but........	Oct 01 00:34
Adus	but nothing. The judgement was not against TPB afaik, it was against the founders etc	Oct 01 00:34
_goblin	adus: the case could be put that if they had no way of separating the legal from the illegal, then they should have cached nothing.	Oct 01 00:34
_goblin	adus: Consider this:	Oct 01 00:35
Adus	But as I understand it, the conviction was of individuals, not the site itself.	Oct 01 00:35
Adus	I can't in any situation imagine google being prosecuted over this. It's ludicrous to suggest it.	Oct 01 00:35
_goblin	adus: true, and the responsibility for TPB was easy for the Swedish courts to single out (rightly or wrongly)	Oct 01 00:35
_goblin	Adus: If people posted indecent material to your site (for example) what would you do?	Oct 01 00:35
_goblin	Adus: I presume you would remove it...	Oct 01 00:36
_goblin	adus: and if you couldn't filter a persons posts you would ban them completely.	Oct 01 00:36
Adus	At the first time I became aware it was illegal, yes, i would remove it.	Oct 01 00:36
_goblin	Adus: So if we are agreed that Google was aware that some TPB material was illegal....wouldnt the sensible course of action be not to cache any of it?	Oct 01 00:37
Adus	Ah yes, but that's the problem. We know google were probably aware, due to all of the press.	Oct 01 00:37
Adus	Could you prove it?	Oct 01 00:37
_goblin	Adus: LOL...not me!	Oct 01 00:37
Adus	Beyond all reasonable doubt?	Oct 01 00:38
Adus	No chance in hell, is what I would say.	Oct 01 00:38
Adus	A prosecution is unrealistic	Oct 01 00:38
_goblin	Adus: but then this was hypothetical and a chance to show that whilst TPB is mentioned for its actions, there were many others with the same content...	Oct 01 00:39
_goblin	adus: Having said all that, my feeling about TPB case was that it was more to do with the amount of revenue they are alleged to have collected.....	Oct 01 00:39
Adus	Yes, and I think you'd be hard pushed to prove any site which automatically caches content or accepts user input knew about the content before being notified of it.	Oct 01 00:39
_goblin	Yes but if we are talking letter of the law (and not real world) I believe the offence would apply to anyone who cached the data that TPB was prosecuted for.	Oct 01 00:40
Adus	You said the law states they need to have knowingly cached the content	Oct 01 00:41
Adus	and I say, that can't be proven.	Oct 01 00:41
Adus	Unless they were notified of it.	Oct 01 00:42
Adus	But yes, I have to say I have very little sympathy for the pirate bay	Oct 01 00:42
schestowitz	Mozilla is afraid of Google, still. http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-10363258-264.html	Oct 01 00:42
_goblin	adus: and as I say unless we can say Google was blissfully unaware of what TPB was (despite worldwide media coverage) then its reasonable to suggest that they would know.	Oct 01 00:42
schestowitz	Low-hanging fruit... that's why they also fear Apple's KHTML ripoff	Oct 01 00:43
_goblin	Adus: In respect of little sympathy....I completely agree...	Oct 01 00:43
Adus	In fact I have no sympathy or respect for anyone who thinks it is ok to steal copyrighted material.	Oct 01 00:43
_goblin	Adus: and again I would agree, although I would not use the word steal (as its defined in the theft act)	Oct 01 00:44
_goblin	I think filesharing sits better with the offence of "Making off without payment"	Oct 01 00:44
Adus	Yes, I've had this discussion with people before.	Oct 01 00:45
Adus	Depends whether you believe it is material loss, but you know what I meant.	Oct 01 00:45
Adus	For all intents and purposes to the average person or company it amounts to theft.	Oct 01 00:45
_goblin	adus: I do liken the filesharer to the person who gets on a train for free whilst everyone else pays...and its like anything IMO....even if you don't believe a law is just you cannot just stick two fingers up at it....	Oct 01 00:46
_goblin	adus: I don't agree with speed cameras, but I don't race through every one simply because I think we shouldnt have them...	Oct 01 00:46
Adus	Yes. I work in the games industry, and obviously we have a big problem with copyright theft for PC Games. People said "Ah, it doesn't matter". It does matter, we don't even make PC games anymore because of that reason	Oct 01 00:47
Adus	Consoles are a much surer bet. The market is bigger and far fewer people will illegally download	Oct 01 00:47
_goblin	Adus: Ive made a point about that before on my blog...	Oct 01 00:47
Adus	and now the same people moan about a lack of PC games	Oct 01 00:48
Adus	I feel like saying "Well, we did warn you. Time and time again. For the last 10 years"	Oct 01 00:48
Adus	:p	Oct 01 00:48
_goblin	adus: I think the "last bastion of salvation" for the windows platform was games,......	Oct 01 00:48
Adus	DirectX 11 seems interesting	Oct 01 00:48
Adus	No matter how you feel about Microsoft, DirectX is pretty cool stuff.	Oct 01 00:48
_goblin	adus: and looking at the piracy losses I can completely agree with a company shifting away from the PC.	Oct 01 00:49
Adus	One company I used to work at made a PC game, and estimated that 3 out of 4 copies were illegally downloaded.	Oct 01 00:49
schestowitz	Kubuntu Beta Candidate Testing Needed http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4069	Oct 01 00:50
schestowitz	Any volunteers?	Oct 01 00:50
schestowitz	Karmic Beta Testing http://ubuntutesting.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/karmic-beta-testing/	Oct 01 00:50
_goblin	adus: and I can believe that....my last serious bout of gaming was on the Amiga and even then piracy was rife....I shudder to think about the losses in todays internet and filesharing world.	Oct 01 00:51
Adus	It's staggering unfortunately.	Oct 01 00:51
cubezzz	there's more copy protection now too	Oct 01 00:51
Adus	Copy protection doesn't work.	Oct 01 00:51
cubezzz	it's an escalation	Oct 01 00:51
Adus	Copy protection does one thing if you're lucky	Oct 01 00:52
_goblin	I once had a debate about why proprietary would always have a place....gaming was one area as I argued the dev costs of the titles could not be recouped by a FOSS ethos.	Oct 01 00:52
Adus	stop the game being leaked/cracked before release day	Oct 01 00:52
cubezzz	I'd like to see some old games go open	Oct 01 00:52
cubezzz	RT2 would be nice :)	Oct 01 00:52
_goblin	cubezz: yeah....its a good way to generate interest in a product range....win win.	Oct 01 00:52
Adus	Well, I think games are actually a pretty honest industry. The engine is reusable, but the gamecode is nearly always just thrown away.	Oct 01 00:52
schestowitz	Let Me Get This Straight - There Are Now NO POVRay Modelers For Linux? http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=let_me_get_this_straight_there_are_now_n&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1	Oct 01 00:53
Adus	Games tend to be less about the technical aspect and more the game itself.	Oct 01 00:53
schestowitz	Weird. Mine worked well in 2004 on SuSE	Oct 01 00:53
Adus	So I don't think they fall under the same arguments a lot of other software does in terms of making them open.	Oct 01 00:53
Adus	It's not really practical.	Oct 01 00:53
cubezzz	Adus, I'm saying open up the old ones, or old verions	Oct 01 00:54
_goblin	Adus: The worry I have is that piracy seems to know no bounds and Ive seen a title called Crayon Physics which was made by a bedroom coder hammered on trackers...that has to harm innovation and give no incentive to new software houses.....	Oct 01 00:54
cubezzz	something that's 10 years old maybe	Oct 01 00:54
Adus	Yeh, I wouldn't disagree with that cubezzz. Some developers have done that.	Oct 01 00:54
_goblin	I think GTA was released for free.....and GTA2	Oct 01 00:54
Adus	But I see no compelling or ethical reason to argue that current gen games should be open	Oct 01 00:55
_goblin	adus: agreed.	Oct 01 00:55
_goblin	adus: If the return cannot be made, they wont be developed.	Oct 01 00:55
Adus	precisely, and it's not like they offer a platform to do anything except play that game	Oct 01 00:55
cubezzz	I think railroad tycoon was given out for free, the binaries, but not the source code	Oct 01 00:56
_goblin	adus: and whilst Alien Arena is excellent.....the mainstream gamers want COD or HALO....to which in terms of production Alien Arena just cannot compete...	Oct 01 00:56
Adus	I seem to remember Microsoft released the code for one of it's game.	Oct 01 00:56
Adus	games*	Oct 01 00:56
schestowitz	Free software?	Oct 01 00:57
schestowitz	4 freedoms?	Oct 01 00:57
cubezzz	lol	Oct 01 00:57
Adus	As to that, I cannot say.	Oct 01 00:57
cubezzz	doubtfull	Oct 01 00:57
_goblin	Adus: In respect of MS, I want to know why they stopped their Flightsim production.....that was IMO one of their few products where they had a legitimate loyal fanbase.	Oct 01 00:57
Adus	I just know they did release the code to one of their games	Oct 01 00:57
Adus	_goblin: because ACES were burning up money?	Oct 01 00:57
Adus	And it's not compatible with their current focus on the 360?:	Oct 01 00:57
_goblin	adus: That sounds like a good answer....I never played the title myself, but I saw alot of people upset by its death.	Oct 01 00:58
Adus	I believe ACES fell to the restructuring due to the recession. I assume that like a lot of companies, Microsoft cut back in some areas, and poured money into the areas they felt would get the best return	Oct 01 00:59
Adus	and that has to be the 360 for them now.	Oct 01 00:59
_goblin	Adus: although how many more will they have to sell to make a return? Wasnt the three rings of death a little expensive for them?	Oct 01 01:00
cubezzz	"Finally, in February of 2004 Microsoft released the source code for Allegiance to anyone who wished to use it. While Microsoft still maintains control of any changes to the game’s programming, it’s free for anyone who wants to download and alter it."	Oct 01 01:00
Adus	I think they make a return on the 360 already	Oct 01 01:00
Adus	I seem to remember they broke even on the hwole Xbox project (including the original one)	Oct 01 01:00
Adus	sometime in 2008	Oct 01 01:00
_goblin	Adus: Although how long more has the console got?	Oct 01 01:01
Adus	The 360?	Oct 01 01:01
Adus	I'd be surprised if there was a new console before Christmas 2013 personally, maybe even 2014	Oct 01 01:01
_goblin	Adus: Im not up on gaming so I wouldnt know when the next gen consoles are rumoured to be coming out.	Oct 01 01:01
Adus	Microsoft and Sony have no desire to release a new console currently	Oct 01 01:01
Adus	it's too expensive	Oct 01 01:01
Adus	we'll have a long cycle this time around	Oct 01 01:02
_goblin	Adus: and hasn't WII really destroyed them?	Oct 01 01:02
Adus	Yes. Though I don't think it has	Oct 01 01:02
schestowitz	IBM does comparative analyses as 'articles' now? Bad, bad, bad. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-aixhpvirtualization/?ca=dgr-lnxw100IBMvsHP-Virtdth-A&S_TACT=105AGY83&S_CMP=grlnxw100	Oct 01 01:02
Adus	if that makes sense?	Oct 01 01:02
_goblin	Adus: I believe it does.!	Oct 01 01:02
Adus	I think Nintendo have tapped a market Microsoft and Sony never did	Oct 01 01:02
Adus	so I don't think Microsoft and Sony have lost anyone	Oct 01 01:02
Adus	just not gained the market nintendo did	Oct 01 01:02
schestowitz	Nope	Oct 01 01:03
schestowitz	Sony and Microsoft lost a fortune	Oct 01 01:03
schestowitz	Only Nintendo and IBM make money from consoles	Oct 01 01:03
_goblin	schestowitz: Ive read that too.	Oct 01 01:03
schestowitz	Consoles future is uncertain for some	Oct 01 01:03
Adus	If you think Sony and Microsoft won't make another console you're very much mistaken	Oct 01 01:04
_goblin	Adus: I would expect that the console replaces the PC in respect of home gaming in the future (IMO)	Oct 01 01:05
Adus	You have to remember that the console isn't what makes the money. The PS3 is sold at a loss.	Oct 01 01:05
Adus	Microsoft make their money from Xbox Live and the Microsoft Game Studios brand	Oct 01 01:06
Adus	not the Xbox Platform Team	Oct 01 01:06
_goblin	adus: and to be fair, the console removes the headache of incompat hardware/work arounds/patchs/scripts.....it really is "plug in and play" I don't mind tinkering with a Linux distro but if I want a game of COD I want it working immediately.....	Oct 01 01:06
Adus	Yes, that's the appeal of a console	Oct 01 01:07
Adus	and of course, it offers huge benefits for deveopers like myself as well	Oct 01 01:07
Adus	One hardware configuration to target, etc	Oct 01 01:07
_goblin	Adus: Can you get yourself into gear then and make an "Imagination Movers" game for the WII.....my kids love that show and keep asking why there isnt a game of it....	Oct 01 01:08
_goblin	:)	Oct 01 01:08
Adus	I don't work with the Wii	Oct 01 01:08
Adus	:p	Oct 01 01:08
_goblin	adus: You could have had a sale there!	Oct 01 01:09
Adus	Yes, but we're interested in millions of sales, lol	Oct 01 01:09
_goblin	whats the piracy situation like for the consoles in relation to the PC?	Oct 01 01:10
_goblin	1 in 100?	Oct 01 01:10
Adus	Something like that	Oct 01 01:10
Adus	All 3 manufactures are very good at detecting them	Oct 01 01:10
Adus	Though of course, it can be done	Oct 01 01:11
Adus	but it needs someone who knows what they are doing	Oct 01 01:11
_goblin	and its a good example where copyprotection does not interfere with the users enjoyment.....	Oct 01 01:11
Adus	The 360 has made pretty cool use of eFuses if you know what they are.	Oct 01 01:11
_goblin	pass :(	Oct 01 01:11
Adus	When they manufacture a 360. They burn out a random selection of fuses. That gives the console a unique ID	Oct 01 01:12
_goblin	ah yes	Oct 01 01:12
Adus	then, when they release a new version of firmware, they burn another fuse in a seperate batch	Oct 01 01:12
Adus	so you can't downgrade the firmware	Oct 01 01:12
_goblin	I havent used my 360 for a long time....	Oct 01 01:13
_goblin	the WII/PS3 took over the TV cabinet.	Oct 01 01:13
Adus	So if there is a vulnerability in the firmware, and then you want to connect to live, it forces you to upgrade, if you dont, you cant play online	Oct 01 01:13
_goblin	as a dev can you put a request forward to your software house for me....?	Oct 01 01:13
Balrog	Nintendo released a Wii update to block homebrew	Oct 01 01:13
Adus	if you do, you can never downgrade to the vulnerable version again	Oct 01 01:13
Adus	pretty genius	Oct 01 01:13
Balrog	well, it doesn't block homebrew and it's bricked plenty of Wiis so far	Oct 01 01:14
Adus	What doesn't?	Oct 01 01:14
Adus	Oh, yeh	Oct 01 01:14
Adus	I heard abotu that.	Oct 01 01:14
Adus	_goblin: Not really. I'm not that important :p	Oct 01 01:14
_goblin	Adus: Humour me! : MAKE SMALLER BOXES! Why can't the game DVD be sold in a normal CD case instead of a soppy big DVD packet that takes up so much room....	Oct 01 01:15
Adus	I'm a Lead Network/Multiplayer Programmer	Oct 01 01:15
Adus	I don't make any important decisions :p	Oct 01 01:15
Balrog	also, if you had any modifications on a wii and it breaks, no warranty for you! and if you have an out-of-warranty Wii that is modified and need service, it will cost twice as much for the SAME work!	Oct 01 01:15
Adus	Well, Nintendo are money grabbing bastards as far as I can tell	Oct 01 01:16
Adus	far worse than Microsoft and Sony in respect to games	Oct 01 01:16
Balrog	yes :(	Oct 01 01:16
Balrog	and they put homebrew and piracy in the same boat and actively attack BOTH	Oct 01 01:16
Balrog	their SDK is also based on static linking	Oct 01 01:17
Balrog	and is under a very restrictive NDA	Oct 01 01:17
Adus	I quite like the whole idea of XNA	Oct 01 01:17
Balrog	so no GPL code ....	Oct 01 01:17
Balrog	Adus: yes, except the C# part :(	Oct 01 01:17
Adus	well, the Xbox 360 and PS3 SDKs are also very tightly controlled	Oct 01 01:17
Adus	and under NDAs	Oct 01 01:17
Balrog	but those use dynamic linking	Oct 01 01:17
Balrog	which means that source code for system libraries would not need to be released	Oct 01 01:18
Balrog	(emphasis on system libraries)	Oct 01 01:18
Adus	Yes. The Xbox 360 just uses the SxS system from Windows	Oct 01 01:18
Balrog	I heard.	Oct 01 01:18
Adus	The 360 is actually pretty ingeniusly engineered from a development standpoint.	Oct 01 01:18
Balrog	the PS3 even more so	Oct 01 01:18
Adus	Hahahahahahaha	Oct 01 01:19
Balrog	geohot was stuck trying to get around the hypervisor	Oct 01 01:19
Adus	You aer kidding me right?	Oct 01 01:19
Adus	the PS3 SDK is horrible	Oct 01 01:19
Balrog	well, I meant from a security standpoint	Oct 01 01:19
Balrog	(geohot is the well known iphone hacker)	Oct 01 01:19
Adus	Yes	Oct 01 01:19
Balrog	that hypervisor is almost impossible to get around	Oct 01 01:20
Balrog	and it's annoying that you can't get to the RSX from Linux :(	Oct 01 01:20
Adus	It's quite irritating actually. I know more about Xbox Live than nearly anyone on the planet, and I can't tell anyone to prove how awesome I am. :(	Oct 01 01:20
Balrog	because of NDA?	Oct 01 01:20
Adus	Yeh	Oct 01 01:20
Balrog	yeah NDAs suck :(	Oct 01 01:20
Adus	The inner workings of live, especially serverside are very secret	Oct 01 01:20
Adus	Understandably so	Oct 01 01:21
Balrog	heh. security by obscurity	Oct 01 01:21
Adus	but it's still annoying when I want to say like "Well, Xbox does it like this"	Oct 01 01:21
Adus	as I can't.	Oct 01 01:21
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.")		Oct 01 01:21
Balrog	I know what you mean	Oct 01 01:21
Adus	But still, it's a cool industry and technology to work with	Oct 01 01:22
Balrog	perhaps.	Oct 01 01:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux and Humanitarian Causes: Case of Point http://bit.ly/195LoO		Oct 01 01:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Thoughts on Suggestions on the Role of the #CommandLine in #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/UhCKo http://bit.ly/Z12KK		Oct 01 01:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Report from #Ohio #LinuxFest 2009 http://bit.ly/1L6JGI		Oct 01 01:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux #Gaming Makes Computer Magazine Feature Story http://pcplus.techradar.com/node/3124		Oct 01 01:34
Adus	Bed time for me. See ya	Oct 01 01:36
schestowitz	You too	Oct 01 01:36
*Adus has quit ()		Oct 01 01:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Dell Takes Huge Step to Increase #Linux Adoption on the Desktop http://bit.ly/1NKoej http://bit.ly/IL27I http://bit.ly/ndbC7		Oct 01 01:37
tessier	http://www.sddt.com/news/article.cfm?SourceCode=20090930czn	Oct 01 01:39
tessier	The Predator runs Linux?! Amazing!	Oct 01 01:39
*tessier imagines a flying tux dropping bombs on the heads of terrists		Oct 01 01:39
schestowitz	Ah!	Oct 01 01:40
cubezzz	a flying tux with gnu force field :)	Oct 01 01:40
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schestowitz	The San Diego Daily Transcript is San Diego’s only information company offering business news, data and resources daily and hourly. We report on San Diego business, finance and the San Diego economy, real estate, construction, the U.S. military in San Diego, and San Diego government construction bids.	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz	SEARCH	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz	Enter Keywords or SourceCode Go	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz	Wednesday, September 30, 2009 View Today's Events Calendar	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz		Oct 01 01:41
tessier	hehe	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz		Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz		Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz	NEWS \| SAN DIEGO	Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz		Oct 01 01:41
schestowitz	General Atomics receives more than $65.5 million in DoD contracts	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	By Daily Transcript staff report	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Wednesday, September 30, 2009	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	share	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	google	Oct 01 01:42
tessier	Here comes the good part...	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	delicious	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	newsvine	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	stumble	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	digg	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	reddit	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	yahoo	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	facebook	Oct 01 01:42
cubezzz	what's with the one word per line stuff? :)	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	twitter	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Print E-Mail	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Advertisement	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz		Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Poway-based General Atomics Aeronautical Systems Inc. was awarded a $46,040,935 contract for Linux operating systems, technical orders, improved display, and spares for the Predator/Reaper.	Oct 01 01:42
tessier	Just how the cut/paste worked out due to the formatting of the page.	Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Holy cra*	Oct 01 01:42
*tessier lives in Poway!		Oct 01 01:42
schestowitz	Sorry.	Oct 01 01:42
tessier	I happened across the General Atomics building just the other day. It is right next to the Costco.	Oct 01 01:43
schestowitz	It highlighted the sidebar and I didn't notice	Oct 01 01:43
schestowitz	That's how the page is formatted	Oct 01 01:43
tessier	They just recently moved there. They used to be in La Jolla.	Oct 01 01:43
cubezzz	tux bombs, lol	Oct 01 01:43
tessier	If I worked at GA I could bike to work. That would be cool.	Oct 01 01:43
schestowitz	Raytheon does weapon sim with Linux	Oct 01 01:43
tessier	Linux powered Predator is brilliant because Tux never crashes! :)	Oct 01 01:44
cubezzz	that's...... great :)	Oct 01 01:44
schestowitz	tessier: if it dos crash and hurt someone, then it's called "oops"	Oct 01 01:44
schestowitz	Perfect diplomatic tool	Oct 01 01:44
tessier	Pretty unlikely it would crash and hurt someone.	Oct 01 01:44
tessier	It flies over very desolate areas.	Oct 01 01:44
tessier	The only reason a crashing airplane ever hurts anyone these days is because we have built up all around the airports.	Oct 01 01:45
tessier	Bad idea.	Oct 01 01:45
cubezzz	urban sprawl	Oct 01 01:45
tessier	Some people around here are always trying to get the airports shut down. They don't realize how screwed they would really be if that happened.	Oct 01 01:45
tessier	But they do succeed occasionally in getting some small town airport closed which is unfortunate.	Oct 01 01:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Sabayon Founder Joins Forced with #Gentoo http://wgo.wolf911.us/?p=236		Oct 01 01:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Garmin Nuvifone Launches with #Linux Inside http://bit.ly/1ybnku http://bit.ly/rtLem		Oct 01 01:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K/Ubuntu 9.10 Now in Beta, Good Previews http://bit.ly/1bjo6x http://bit.ly/3Z1xxE		Oct 01 01:53
schestowitz	Poor PJ...	Oct 01 01:53
schestowitz	She's being hit for speaking about the taboo	Oct 01 01:53
cubezzz	taboo?	Oct 01 01:53
schestowitz	It was the same when she spoke about Novell's fork of OOo	Oct 01 01:54
schestowitz	cubezzz: Mono, Microsoft, Miguel, etc.	Oct 01 01:54
cubezzz	it makes sense to keep tabs on Microsoft	Oct 01 01:55
cubezzz	the other two just aren't as important	Oct 01 01:55
cubezzz	there are documented backdoors in windows	Oct 01 01:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Predator / #Reaper Runs #Linux http://bit.ly/bjBH1		Oct 01 01:59
cubezzz	looking at the gnu task list...	Oct 01 01:59
schestowitz	cubezzz:	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	Report: Turkish hackers breached U.S. Army servers	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	,----[ Quote ]	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	\| Investigators believe an SQL injection attack was used to exploit a	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	\| vulnerability in Microsoft's SQL Server database in order to gain access to	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	\| the servers.	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	`----	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10252375-83.html	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	They didn't even need the WIndows back doors or CIPAV	Oct 01 02:00
cubezzz	yeah databases get attacked too	Oct 01 02:00
cubezzz	I backup every 24 hours now	Oct 01 02:00
schestowitz	Same here	Oct 01 02:01
cubezzz	schestowitz, I was thinking of XP or whatever sending a list to redmon about what sofware one has installed	Oct 01 02:01
schestowitz	But for other reasons	Oct 01 02:01
schestowitz	cubezzz: yes, for competitive reasons	Oct 01 02:02
cubezzz	some "black hat" hackers seem to attack servers just for the heck of it	Oct 01 02:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Wins and Advancements for #Smartphones Running #Linux http://bit.ly/CiiRu http://bit.ly/39V2lA		Oct 01 02:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of the #Nokia #N900 #Linux #Tablet http://bit.ly/HNC43		Oct 01 02:05
schestowitz	You man crackers	Oct 01 02:07
schestowitz	*mean	Oct 01 02:07
schestowitz	Trophy exploits and defacements	Oct 01 02:08
cubezzz	well black hat implies cracker, yeah	Oct 01 02:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Moblin Site Claims Moblin Appears Promising, Uses #Ext4 http://bit.ly/VQsrS http://bit.ly/sv3PI		Oct 01 02:09
*Balrog has quit ()		Oct 01 02:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat 's Success with #GNU #linux Shows That It's the Train of the Future http://bit.ly/j2wI7		Oct 01 02:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Case for #FreeSoftware Migration in #NewYork Schools http://bit.ly/6azTH		Oct 01 02:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] OpenOffice.org 3.2 Dissected http://bit.ly/dUPdP		Oct 01 02:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Literature in Europe Follows Example Set by #FreeSoftware ( #Open Access ) http://www.bjhcim.co.uk/news/2009/n909038.htm		Oct 01 02:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #CoryDoctorow on Abuse of Free Software Users at the #BBC http://bit.ly/NxvsU		Oct 01 02:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft and the #Australian Government Rub Each Others' Backs http://bit.ly/kJZvh		Oct 01 02:37
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Xarver	I'm gunna shmack you like a shmack boy.	Oct 01 03:29
*twitter2 (n=willhill@97-113-231-152.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 03:32
twitter2	M$ Troll celebrates M$ escaping patent law again. http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172936/jurys_verdict_tossed_388m_win_for_microsoft.html	Oct 01 03:32
twitter2	It took six years to deliver a verdict and only six months for M$ to get it overturned. -> "The Court has reviewed the transcripts and evidence with painstaking detail in the light most favorable to Uniloc, careful not to act as the eleventh juror. What remains is a firm belief (indeed a certitude) that the jury 'lacked a grasp of the issues before it' and reached a finding without a legally sufficient basis," the judge wrote in	Oct 01 03:34
cubezzz	probably true though	Oct 01 03:35
twitter2	I agree. Anyone who would say a software patent is valid does not understand the purpose of patents.	Oct 01 03:35
cubezzz	"My take: I have worried for many years about the ability of a jury of average men and women, essentially off the street, to decide complex technical cases, especially those involving mind-numbing patent issues."	Oct 01 03:35
twitter2	the problem, however, is that M$ has, or had, the money to buy their own brand of justice.	Oct 01 03:36
twitter2	The issue is only mind numbing because software patents are a lie.	Oct 01 03:36
cubezzz	I don't think we have software patents	Oct 01 03:36
twitter2	good for you	Oct 01 03:36
cubezzz	in Canada :)	Oct 01 03:37
twitter2	try to stay that way. The US may return to sanity one day.	Oct 01 03:37
cubezzz	still lots of room for improvement, even so	Oct 01 03:38
cubezzz	when did software patents start I wonder...	Oct 01 03:39
*Balrog (n=Balrog@32.167.167.76) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 03:39
cubezzz	patent lawsuit with trail by jury	Oct 01 03:44
cubezzz	trial by jury	Oct 01 03:44
Diablo-D3	trail by jury should have been an awesome show	Oct 01 03:52
cubezzz	oh I think you mean Law & Order	Oct 01 03:54
Diablo-D3	yes	Oct 01 03:55
*Xarver has quit ("Leaving.")		Oct 01 03:56
JPerlow	Well i'm pissed.	Oct 01 04:05
JPerlow	my plantronics headset didn't work when I hooked it up.	Oct 01 04:05
JPerlow	$140.00 peice of junk.	Oct 01 04:05
twitter2	Hi Jason. Is that really him?	Oct 01 04:10
twitter2	I was just noting how sad it was that you can't seem to leave Windows.	Oct 01 04:11
JPerlow	what is that, an existential question?	Oct 01 04:11
twitter2	It was more a question to the others here. You have already said that you are Jason Perlow.	Oct 01 04:11
JPerlow	there's nothing sad about it. I choose to use it because it's a tool that fits my needs.	Oct 01 04:12
JPerlow	and because i have business requirements that I use it.	Oct 01 04:12
JPerlow	and even if I didn't have business requirements, I'd probably still use it to some extent, because i have an interest in the technology industry and enterprise software.	Oct 01 04:12
twitter2	did you just say that Windows was enterprise software?	Oct 01 04:13
JPerlow	Yes.	Oct 01 04:13
twitter2	NCC1701A?	Oct 01 04:13
cubezzz	lol	Oct 01 04:13
JPerlow	I'm going to have a conversation with my kitchen table if we continue in that vein.	Oct 01 04:14
cubezzz	"narrow-minded Cretaceous world"	Oct 01 04:14
cubezzz	and what appears to be a Stallmanosaurus	Oct 01 04:14
JPerlow	did you like that?	Oct 01 04:14
JPerlow	no.	Oct 01 04:14
twitter2	I hate Windows and think it's about as painful a software as you can find.	Oct 01 04:15
cubezzz	no?	Oct 01 04:15
JPerlow	A Stallracasaurus Rex.	Oct 01 04:15
twitter2	Is that what the table told you?	Oct 01 04:15
JPerlow	no that's what the artist said it was.	Oct 01 04:15
JPerlow	It's based on a styracasaur.	Oct 01 04:15
JPerlow	its a ceratopsian.	Oct 01 04:16
JPerlow	a plant eater.	Oct 01 04:16
JPerlow	it's horns are non defensive.	Oct 01 04:16
JPerlow	strictly for show. :)	Oct 01 04:16
cubezzz	Stallman eats breaded duck btw :)	Oct 01 04:16
JPerlow	an abyssmal preparation to be sure.	Oct 01 04:16
twitter2	how about breaded chicken?	Oct 01 04:17
twitter2	who would eat that?	Oct 01 04:17
cubezzz	I don't know... oh ummm	Oct 01 04:17
JPerlow	that would be most five year olds.	Oct 01 04:17
twitter2	I think you might be able to make a big business covering chicken with bread.	Oct 01 04:18
JPerlow	as it seems most parents I know have children which will eat that and macaroni and cheese almost exclusively.	Oct 01 04:18
twitter2	it would take a special type of cooking, one most people would not have in their house	Oct 01 04:18
JPerlow	I think chick-fil-a has the market cornered on that.	Oct 01 04:18
cubezzz	how about a Gatesosaurus next time to balance things out?	Oct 01 04:18
twitter2	oh yes, you noticed!	Oct 01 04:18
JPerlow	Gates is retired and busy giving tremendous amounts of money to charity.	Oct 01 04:19
twitter2	LOL	Oct 01 04:19
JPerlow	however, if it makes you feel any better, I had Steve Ballmer as the Iron Monger from the iron man movie.	Oct 01 04:20
cubezzz	oh that's cool	Oct 01 04:20
twitter2	Seems to be back on top of the richest person list, for all of his "giving"	Oct 01 04:20
*twitter2 did not see that movie		Oct 01 04:20
JPerlow	http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=8716	Oct 01 04:20
JPerlow	you expect him to become an ascetic?	Oct 01 04:21
twitter2	I expect justice	Oct 01 04:22
JPerlow	well then you need Batman, not Stallman.	Oct 01 04:22
twitter2	no thanks, I like lawful society	Oct 01 04:23
JPerlow	I dunno, he has a really cool car and stuff.	Oct 01 04:23
cubezzz	there's no cartoon equivalent to Stallman	Oct 01 04:24
cubezzz	at least none that I can think of	Oct 01 04:24
JPerlow	comic book guy.	Oct 01 04:25
JPerlow	from the simpsons.	Oct 01 04:25
twitter2	it's not the best material for laughs, kind of like making cartoons of Moses or something.	Oct 01 04:25
twitter2	Ballmer's slapstick is a richer vain.	Oct 01 04:26
twitter2	Brainwashing his kids, smashing iPhones and chair tossing.	Oct 01 04:27
twitter2	I wonder if anyone has made a Donkey Kong mod, with a chair throwing Ballmer at the top.	Oct 01 04:28
cubezzz	well, I don't think mono-culture is good :)	Oct 01 04:28
twitter2	Monkeys, we like monkeys.	Oct 01 04:28
cubezzz	"techno-ascetic monk"	Oct 01 04:29
JPerlow	if you like, you can print up all your favorite phrases and have them on trading cards.	Oct 01 04:30
twitter2	How long do you think it will take M$ to finally implode, and what will happen to all of those poor Windows users when they realize that there is no upgrade?	Oct 01 04:30
*Balrog has quit ("bye")		Oct 01 04:30
JPerlow	you could always accelerate the process by calling in a favor to Kim Jong Il or Ahmadinejad.	Oct 01 04:31
twitter2	Ick. Why trade one master for another?	Oct 01 04:31
JPerlow	You don't like korean food?	Oct 01 04:32
twitter2	I like food.	Oct 01 04:32
JPerlow	or kebabs?	Oct 01 04:32
twitter2	Freedom is nice too.	Oct 01 04:32
JPerlow	Schestowitz: am I taking the Turing test?	Oct 01 04:33
cubezzz	well the MIcrosoft death grip is gone, mainly due to gcc	Oct 01 04:33
cubezzz	so we don't have mono-culture	Oct 01 04:33
cubezzz	we didn't before windows either	Oct 01 04:33
twitter2	there was that unfortunate decade or two	Oct 01 04:34
*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?")		Oct 01 04:34
twitter2	sheep returns poop	Oct 01 04:34
twitter2	Woot, Windows 7 now has a big 6000 "compatible devices" lol	Oct 01 04:35
twitter2	Oh how funny. Balmer talks about, "a new normal." http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3841781/Microsofts+Ballmer+Talks+a+New+Normal+for+IT.htm	Oct 01 04:36
twitter2	That's the kind of language the Bush people used for New Orleans after Katrina.	Oct 01 04:36
twitter2	Welcome to the new normal, don't expect things to get better!	Oct 01 04:37
twitter2	What was it he said about Success and Vista?	Oct 01 04:38
twitter2	In theory, you can have an infinite number of 30% declines and never reach zero.	Oct 01 04:39
twitter2	Shocker: Young adults don't trust financial institutions.	Oct 01 04:40
cubezzz	JPerlow, you worked on Zaurus?	Oct 01 04:42
JPerlow	yes.	Oct 01 04:42
twitter2	What did you do?	Oct 01 04:42
JPerlow	I was community manager and developer liasion in the united states.	Oct 01 04:43
cubezzz	I suppose you heard about the NetWalker?	Oct 01 04:43
JPerlow	yes.	Oct 01 04:44
twitter2	There's going to be one nasty hangover for the Windows 7 launch parties... http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/microsoft-announces-quarterly-earnings-release-date-62439927.html	Oct 01 04:45
cubezzz	one of my complaints is that I can't seem to buy a linux based PDA these days	Oct 01 04:45
cubezzz	I'm in Canada btw	Oct 01 04:45
twitter2	-> Microsoft Corp. will release fiscal year 2010 first-quarter financial results prior to the market open on Friday, October 23, 2009, the morning following the Windows 7 product launch activities.	Oct 01 04:45
twitter2	Zaurus was easy to hack, but I'm not sure there was ever a free software kernel.	Oct 01 04:46
JPerlow	I was going to host a Windows 7 party, but it turns out I'mg oignt to be out of town during the launch week.	Oct 01 04:46
twitter2	What kind of Dinosaur is Windows 7?	Oct 01 04:47
JPerlow	This really is a Turing test.	Oct 01 04:48
twitter2	Something huge, right before the last extinction event?	Oct 01 04:48
JPerlow	cubezzz canada has weird consumer electronics laws that do not conform with the UL and other CE testing in the US.	Oct 01 04:49
twitter2	It seems to be hard to buy anything with nothing but free software on it. OLPC is a notable exception, but even it has non free wireless drivers.	Oct 01 04:49
JPerlow	so not every company can afford to re-certify as well as print french/english documentation.	Oct 01 04:49
JPerlow	its a pain in the ass country to work with.	Oct 01 04:49
JPerlow	the zaurus wasnt sold in canada for that reason.	Oct 01 04:50
cubezzz	yeah, I can't recall ever seeing Zaurus in Canada	Oct 01 04:50
cubezzz	well, that explains it	Oct 01 04:50
JPerlow	we didnt want to go thru the trouble to do the CE certification or the french documentation.	Oct 01 04:50
JPerlow	requires separate packaging too.	Oct 01 04:50
*twitter2 glaces at a 6 language printed box from Sharp		Oct 01 04:50
twitter2	"CART D'APPAREIL - PHOTO DE DIGITAL"	Oct 01 04:51
twitter2	caps lock present in original	Oct 01 04:51
cubezzz	maybe in Toronto, there might have been a gray market	Oct 01 04:51
JPerlow	possibly. the certification has to be done for every product	Oct 01 04:52
JPerlow	even if its a minor model change	Oct 01 04:52
cubezzz	so is there anything less like the zaurus?	Oct 01 04:52
cubezzz	less=else	Oct 01 04:52
*twitter2 thinks of all the expensive dual language shampoo and soap on the market		Oct 01 04:52
JPerlow	europe and UL and the other cert authorities work together so its easier to market a product to the US and Europe simultaneously.	Oct 01 04:53
twitter2	So ... it's easier to sell a Zaurus in France than it is in Canada?	Oct 01 04:53
JPerlow	else like a zaurus? what's wrong with a netbook?	Oct 01 04:53
JPerlow	too big?	Oct 01 04:53
twitter2	Yes, too big.	Oct 01 04:53
cubezzz	uhh, no	Oct 01 04:53
twitter2	wrong processor	Oct 01 04:53
cubezzz	in fact the tiny screen is a bit of a pain	Oct 01 04:54
cubezzz	but I still like the sl-5500	Oct 01 04:54
JPerlow	haven't seen anything like that which isn't a smartphone	Oct 01 04:54
twitter2	iPaq?	Oct 01 04:54
JPerlow	at least in this country	Oct 01 04:54
*fewa (n=fewa@unaffiliated/fewa) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 04:55
cubezzz	yeah, I've seen Ipaq but I don't want to pay the windows tax	Oct 01 04:55
twitter2	buy it used	Oct 01 04:55
JPerlow	I've seen prototypes of android based arm netbooks	Oct 01 04:56
cubezzz	I do like the idea of a pocket computer though	Oct 01 04:56
*JPerlow has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))		Oct 01 04:56
*JPerlow (n=blah@ool-18bbbd87.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 04:56
JPerlow	that was weird.	Oct 01 04:56
twitter2	it happens	Oct 01 04:57
twitter2	http://www.google.com/products?q=linux+PDA+&aq=f	Oct 01 04:57
cubezzz	yeah I check ebay for used stuff	Oct 01 04:57
twitter2	very expensive stuff google has there	Oct 01 04:57
twitter2	ebay is nice	Oct 01 04:57
cubezzz	what do you know, netwalker on ebay :-0	Oct 01 04:57
twitter2	Nokia had some interesting tablets based on Debian.	Oct 01 04:58
cubezzz	I could run Majesty Gold on that sucker	Oct 01 04:58
cubezzz	Sharp makes nice stuff	Oct 01 05:00
JPerlow	I have 2 of their HD sets.	Oct 01 05:01
JPerlow	their LCD technology is fantastic.	Oct 01 05:01
twitter2	yes, it is nice	Oct 01 05:01
JPerlow	most of their business is in OEMing screens for other companies.	Oct 01 05:01
JPerlow	components.	Oct 01 05:02
*twitter2 has no TV		Oct 01 05:02
JPerlow	I use one of their 32" HDs as a monitor	Oct 01 05:02
cubezzz	flashing the sl-5500 seems difficult though	Oct 01 05:03
JPerlow	yeah, it was a pain	Oct 01 05:03
twitter2	Flashing the 5500 is a walk in the park	Oct 01 05:03
cubezzz	I haven't managed to do it, even though I've compiled the kernel	Oct 01 05:03
twitter2	the Open Zaurus people explained it well and had binaries all set up.	Oct 01 05:03
cubezzz	I don't have a power supply, just a usb cord	Oct 01 05:03
cubezzz	not sure if that's good enough for flashing	Oct 01 05:04
JPerlow	I helped found the openzaurus project, actually.	Oct 01 05:04
twitter2	you should be able to flash, as long as you have a good battery	Oct 01 05:04
*desu_ (i=desu@i.hate.your.vhosts.shellium.org) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 05:04
cubezzz	JPerlow, that's excellent	Oct 01 05:04
twitter2	Thanks, JPerlow, that was a nice project.	Oct 01 05:04
twitter2	What did you do to establish it?	Oct 01 05:05
JPerlow	it was an informal outgrowth of the developer program.	Oct 01 05:05
JPerlow	primarily to accomplish a port of Familiar.	Oct 01 05:05
JPerlow	and then to do an entirely open rom.	Oct 01 05:05
cubezzz	I ported ncurses the other day :)	Oct 01 05:05
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twitter2	so what did you do?	Oct 01 05:06
twitter2	I'm helping to build the Free Software Foundation.	Oct 01 05:06
twitter2	$10 / month	Oct 01 05:06
cubezzz	some of my old programs used curses and ncurses	Oct 01 05:07
cubezzz	plus I wanted top on there	Oct 01 05:07
twitter2	It would be nice if every GCC user was as generous as broke me.	Oct 01 05:07
JPerlow	cubezzz: most of the zauruses in use were used in vertical apps, a lot of text mode stuff	Oct 01 05:08
JPerlow	one of the biggest adopters was a huge rail transportation company, CTX	Oct 01 05:08
JPerlow	they bought 5000 units	Oct 01 05:08
JPerlow	they replaced their laptops which did diagnostics of the switching systems	Oct 01 05:09
JPerlow	used serial port interface	Oct 01 05:09
cubezzz	which model did they buy?	Oct 01 05:09
JPerlow	originally, 5500	Oct 01 05:09
JPerlow	I think japan sold them the special japanese models later on with special roms	Oct 01 05:09
cubezzz	twitter2, I'll donate too	Oct 01 05:09
twitter2	cool, go get yourself an associate membership	Oct 01 05:10
twitter2	http://www.fsf.org/jf	Oct 01 05:10
cubezzz	I'll make some ipk files and put them on the net	Oct 01 05:12
twitter2	http://sourceforge.net/scm/?type=cvs&group_id=43045	Oct 01 05:15
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cubezzz	right	Oct 01 05:16
cubezzz	I'll check that out after I make the switch to openzaurus	Oct 01 05:17
twitter2	kernel ends at 2.4.7	Oct 01 05:17
twitter2	or 2.5	Oct 01 05:17
twitter2	saw this, someone is doing 2.6 http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~lenz/zaurus/	Oct 01 05:18
twitter2	behold http://openzaurus.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/openzaurus/buildroot-oz/packages/ncurses/	Oct 01 05:18
cubezzz	JPerlow, yeah I have it on ssh all the time, streaming radio and running text based stuff	Oct 01 05:18
twitter2	7 years old	Oct 01 05:18
JPerlow	it was remarkably ahead of its time	Oct 01 05:19
JPerlow	unfortuntely, the productivty apps were lousy and the sync worked awful	Oct 01 05:19
cubezzz	I think my battery is probably too old, maybe that's why I can't flash it	Oct 01 05:19
JPerlow	it was an amazing little computer, but a terrible PDA	Oct 01 05:19
twitter2	productivity and sync holding back iPhone and iTouch?	Oct 01 05:20
cubezzz	battery life would be my complaint	Oct 01 05:20
JPerlow	I would say not, they have a huge developer ecosystem.	Oct 01 05:20
cubezzz	but yes, nice little computer	Oct 01 05:20
cubezzz	JPerlow, do you know what the limit is for SD cards re: SL-5500?	Oct 01 05:21
twitter2	I did not like their handwriting recognition.	Oct 01 05:21
twitter2	xstroke and graffiti 1 were better	Oct 01 05:21
JPerlow	don't recall, I know i used a 64MB and a 128MB at one point.	Oct 01 05:21
twitter2	something bad happened in court somewhere to make PDAs move to that awful handwriting thing.	Oct 01 05:21
cubezzz	eh, this kingston 512 reads OK, but can't write to it very well	Oct 01 05:22
JPerlow	cubezz, there used to be a large openzaurus chat channel on undernet or freenode	Oct 01 05:22
cubezzz	there is an openzaurus on freenode, but it looks pretty quiet in there	Oct 01 05:23
cubezzz	PDA itself seems rather dead	Oct 01 05:24
JPerlow	there was also #zaurus	Oct 01 05:24
twitter2	yeah, you could never sell an iTouch.	Oct 01 05:24
twitter2	who'd want that?	Oct 01 05:24
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cubezzz	there's more zaurus talk in here that in #zaurus :)	Oct 01 05:25
twitter2	The market for Windows tethered devices that can open Word docs is pretty dead.	Oct 01 05:25
twitter2	the market for portable computers is about as hot as you can get.	Oct 01 05:25
cubezzz	yeah all the young ones seem to have something portable now	Oct 01 05:26
JPerlow	twitter: amazingly if you say something enough, you'll start to beleive it	Oct 01 05:26
*twitter2 looks at his Garmin nuvi		Oct 01 05:28
cubezzz	I don't know enough about ipaq to pick one yet	Oct 01 05:28
twitter2	screen size is larger than Zaurus. Processor is probably better.	Oct 01 05:28
twitter2	the world needs more GPL 3 software	Oct 01 05:29
cubezzz	that's a GPS isn't it?	Oct 01 05:30
twitter2	Yes, basically a specialized pda	Oct 01 05:30
twitter2	probably runs gnu/linux like a Tivo does	Oct 01 05:30
twitter2	it's an appliance	Oct 01 05:30
cubezzz	hmmm, hardly ideal though	Oct 01 05:31
twitter2	I have little to no hope of running software of my choice on it.	Oct 01 05:31
*cubezzz nods		Oct 01 05:31
twitter2	that might just be pessimism on my part	Oct 01 05:31
cubezzz	well JPerlow, you appear to be a true agnostic	Oct 01 05:32
twitter2	he craves PDA sized Visio	Oct 01 05:32
JPerlow	cubezzz: I use what works for me.	Oct 01 05:32
JPerlow	your mileage may vary.	Oct 01 05:33
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twitter2	What portable computing device do you use currently?	Oct 01 05:33
JPerlow	as in smaller than a laptop?	Oct 01 05:33
twitter2	Laptop and smaller.	Oct 01 05:34
JPerlow	I have two laptops. I deactivated my blackberry on monday, I'm looking to get something else.	Oct 01 05:34
cubezzz	Palm Pre perhaps?	Oct 01 05:34
twitter2	What model laptop.	Oct 01 05:34
twitter2	I use X30, does Debian very well.	Oct 01 05:34
cubezzz	X30 what?	Oct 01 05:35
*amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04		Oct 01 05:35
twitter2	Thinkpad.	Oct 01 05:35
JPerlow	I have a Lenovo T60 that is work issued and is due for replacement, and I have a Dell 1555 that I just bought for recreational use.	Oct 01 05:35
cubezzz	oh, right	Oct 01 05:35
twitter2	one of the last models without a Windows logo on the keyboard.	Oct 01 05:35
twitter2	PIII 512MB RAM.	Oct 01 05:35
cubezzz	the logo can come off :)	Oct 01 05:35
twitter2	Yes, but it's difficult to reclaim space bar size	Oct 01 05:36
cubezzz	the panasonic toughbooks are very nice too	Oct 01 05:36
JPerlow	theres a vendor that is sending me a military grade laptop to look at.	Oct 01 05:36
JPerlow	I think its carbon composite case.	Oct 01 05:37
twitter2	that would be nice	Oct 01 05:37
cubezzz	I suppose if one was very handy you could make a PDA	Oct 01 05:37
twitter2	yes, you would start with a PDA....	Oct 01 05:37
cubezzz	one guy made a CPU...	Oct 01 05:38
cubezzz	that's hardcore :)	Oct 01 05:38
twitter2	Does JPerlow use a PDA?	Oct 01 05:38
twitter2	I still carry a Handspring Visor.	Oct 01 05:38
twitter2	3 month battery life, good calculator and an adequate calender make me happy.	Oct 01 05:39
JPerlow	twitter: my blackberry was my pda.	Oct 01 05:39
twitter2	ah.	Oct 01 05:39
JPerlow	I put it to death on monday.	Oct 01 05:39
JPerlow	on my birthday.	Oct 01 05:39
JPerlow	it was very sad.	Oct 01 05:40
twitter2	I'm not comfortable putting that much of my life onto a non free, wireless device	Oct 01 05:40
JPerlow	then you might want to consider psychoanalysis.	Oct 01 05:40
*cubezzz puts his tinfoil hat on		Oct 01 05:40
JPerlow	I heard they can fix that problem.	Oct 01 05:40
twitter2	name calling. very classy, JPerlow.	Oct 01 05:40
JPerlow	It's expensive, though.	Oct 01 05:40
JPerlow	I didnt call you a name.	Oct 01 05:41
twitter2	you called me crazy.	Oct 01 05:41
JPerlow	crazy is a relative term.	Oct 01 05:41
twitter2	it is an insulting term	Oct 01 05:41
JPerlow	yes, but I did not use that terminology.	Oct 01 05:42
twitter2	I'm neither crazy nor stupid.	Oct 01 05:42
cubezzz	twitter2, we know that :)	Oct 01 05:42
JPerlow	I'm not a medical health professional, so I'm not qualified to make an accurate diagnosis.	Oct 01 05:43
JPerlow	er rather, mental health professional.	Oct 01 05:43
twitter2	but then again, earlier this evening I described JPerlow as a person with irrational attachments to legacy software ... http://boycottnovell.com/2009/09/30/counter-article-to-perlow/#comment-73733	Oct 01 05:44
twitter2	so, I'll forgive you for falling into the usual non free software pattern of behavior.	Oct 01 05:44
JPerlow	right, well one can only have an irrational attachment to software if someone actually CARES about the software they are using.	Oct 01 05:44
twitter2	It is irrational of me.	Oct 01 05:45
twitter2	Watching people use Windows is painful to me, in the way watching an infant play with broken glass is painful to most people.	Oct 01 05:45
JPerlow	as I said, a professional as well as adequate medication can fix that.	Oct 01 05:46
twitter2	The single screen GUI.	Oct 01 05:46
twitter2	Word.	Oct 01 05:46
cubezzz	the main thing is he's not anti-FOSS	Oct 01 05:46
cubezzz	agnostic, like I said before	Oct 01 05:47
JPerlow	actually.	Oct 01 05:47
JPerlow	I am pro Open Source.	Oct 01 05:47
twitter2	I have to use Windows at work. It is painful.	Oct 01 05:47
JPerlow	I have to use windows at work because without key applications, I'd never get my work done.	Oct 01 05:48
twitter2	Death by a thousand clicks, bugs and other major inefficiencies	Oct 01 05:48
twitter2	Yeah, I read your article.	Oct 01 05:48
twitter2	most of those key applications are key because it's what your clients use	Oct 01 05:48
twitter2	and because of limitations of your client's computing environment	Oct 01 05:49
JPerlow	well, even if i were to eliminate office and if Ooo or Symphony has 100 percent compatibility, I would still require visio as well as a good project planning application.	Oct 01 05:49
twitter2	There will never be compatibility with M$.	Oct 01 05:50
cubezzz	using microsoft data formats isn't a great idea	Oct 01 05:50
twitter2	M$ will fight that to the death.	Oct 01 05:50
JPerlow	then I'll be using Office for a very long time. :)	Oct 01 05:50
twitter2	One of the things that really kills me is how sorry the Windows clipboard is.	Oct 01 05:51
twitter2	Office has it's own special clipboard because the system clipboard is trash.	Oct 01 05:52
twitter2	Not being able to share more than one formatted clip at a time is a real pain in the rear.	Oct 01 05:53
twitter2	It means that I'm constantly having to cut before I paste.	Oct 01 05:53
twitter2	it's so wasteful	Oct 01 05:53
cubezzz	I've never used Microsoft Office	Oct 01 05:54
twitter2	then Word does not know how to paste the contents into it's tables. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.	Oct 01 05:54
JPerlow	cubezzz: Frankly, I prefer ooo 3.1	Oct 01 05:55
twitter2	The answer is to undo the paste, right click and then paste again with "paste cells".	Oct 01 05:55
cubezzz	JPerlow, you're going to find me quite different from most others	Oct 01 05:55
twitter2	Do you think an office that's dumb enough to use the software I'm using would let me install OO?	Oct 01 05:55
cubezzz	I try to do everything text-based if possible	Oct 01 05:56
cubezzz	my spreadsheets are ASCII	Oct 01 05:56
JPerlow	cubezzz: I like text based apps, actually.	Oct 01 05:56
twitter2	a green screen application would be better than what I'm using.	Oct 01 05:56
cubezzz	;-)	Oct 01 05:56
JPerlow	lotus 123 for DOS was awesome	Oct 01 05:56
JPerlow	I still use midnight commander	Oct 01 05:56
twitter2	but someone decided to hook Word into things. That figures, because they also corrupted their software with VB and .NET	Oct 01 05:57
cubezzz	so instead of using a "spreadsheet program" I write perl scripts to process the text	Oct 01 05:57
*amarsh04 still has an "As-Easy-As..." manual on the shelf		Oct 01 05:57
twitter2	I like gnumeric when a spreadsheet is actually useful	Oct 01 05:58
twitter2	for repetitive tasks, I prefer to find the apps that do the job and string them together with shell scripts and C	Oct 01 05:58
twitter2	it's not often that I need to use C, but it's very nice to have it	Oct 01 05:59
twitter2	the Debian world usually has a program that does exactly what I want to do	Oct 01 05:59
twitter2	You should try the Debian testing version of GIMP, JPerlow, there are some real improvements.	Oct 01 06:00
twitter2	my favorite improvement is how well the lasso tool works now.	Oct 01 06:00
twitter2	you might finally let the Knoll brother's old code rest ....	Oct 01 06:01
cubezzz	Knoll brother?	Oct 01 06:05
cubezzz	oh now I see	Oct 01 06:07
twitter2	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Knoll	Oct 01 06:15
twitter2	Their father wrote an interesting book on radiation detection and measurement	Oct 01 06:15
twitter2	back in the days when people wrote books instead of contributing to a Wiki someplace	Oct 01 06:16
twitter2	or commercialized software instead of sharing it	Oct 01 06:16
JPerlow	Some of us still read boooks.	Oct 01 06:16
twitter2	knowledge was so hard to come by that collecting enough of it to write a book brought great prestige on the author	Oct 01 06:17
twitter2	good software, likewise, was hard to come by	Oct 01 06:18
JPerlow	and furry aliens from alpha centauri were furry aliens from alpha centauri.	Oct 01 06:18
vcent	twitter2 I think in this day and age knowledge is everywhere	Oct 01 06:18
twitter2	authoring a technical book was a labor of love. most of the money, if there was any, was collected by the publisher	Oct 01 06:19
twitter2	there is still no substitute for practical application of that knowledge and without it no deep understanding can develop	Oct 01 06:20
twitter2	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_With_Tribbles	Oct 01 06:21
cubezzz	with Stallman's help, and Linus, and the X11 guys, and apache, etc, etc we now have a car that works :)	Oct 01 06:22
twitter2	it would be nice if cars used free software	Oct 01 06:22
JPerlow	my car has NO software.	Oct 01 06:22
twitter2	some states are working to mandate this, because market forces alone will never make it happen	Oct 01 06:22
twitter2	your no software car won't last forever	Oct 01 06:23
JPerlow	well, I have two of the same model, and they've lasted 20 years.	Oct 01 06:23
twitter2	and pre Ralph Nader improvement cars are decidedly dangerous	Oct 01 06:23
twitter2	I have a 40 year old van.	Oct 01 06:23
vcent	does it run free software ?	Oct 01 06:24
twitter2	yes	Oct 01 06:24
cubezzz	heh	Oct 01 06:24
cubezzz	it's got 8-track	Oct 01 06:24
twitter2	I can study, modify, improve and share my improvements with anyone.	Oct 01 06:24
JPerlow	Well, these are Mercedes 560 SELs in excellent condition. The one with the highest mileage has 185K miles on it. The engine was designed to be REBUILT at 400K.	Oct 01 06:24
JPerlow	I have no desire to replace them.	Oct 01 06:24
twitter2	mid 80s 560 SEL is a nice car	Oct 01 06:25
JPerlow	they most certainly have embedded firmware.	Oct 01 06:25
JPerlow	of some type.	Oct 01 06:25
twitter2	vacuum hoses	Oct 01 06:25
JPerlow	at least in the fuel injection system.	Oct 01 06:25
twitter2	that will never betray you to your insurance company and I imagine you can get replacement parts at most shops	Oct 01 06:26
JPerlow	http://www.flickr.com/photos/offthebroiler/217964746/	Oct 01 06:26
JPerlow	thats my gold one.	Oct 01 06:26
JPerlow	I have a burgundy one as well.	Oct 01 06:26
JPerlow	http://www.flickr.com/photos/offthebroiler/217968882/in/photostream/	Oct 01 06:27
*twitter2 slides over to a desktop with a more up to the moment browser that can deal with flicker		Oct 01 06:27
cubezzz	Oscar Goldman would approve :)	Oct 01 06:27
twitter2	yes, those are nice cars	Oct 01 06:28
twitter2	they should last longer than most of us	Oct 01 06:28
JPerlow	right, so if I outlive either of those cars, I figure I'm coming out ahead.	Oct 01 06:28
twitter2	I'm hoping to live ling enough to see reasonable public transportation in the US.	Oct 01 06:29
twitter2	and decent electric vehicles	Oct 01 06:29
twitter2	fossil fuel is killing the planet	Oct 01 06:30
vcent	out law fossel fuel for power generation (including cars) and we'll have cheap, and effective electric cars in 6 months or LESS	Oct 01 06:30
*amarsh04 finds a still-working wordperfect 5.1 for dos (bought 1989) that has been migrated across pc's and disks		Oct 01 06:30
JPerlow	WP51 for dos was excellent, but I really liked PFS:Professional Write	Oct 01 06:31
*twitter2 has a copy of WP 5.2 that works under Win3.1 in dosbox		Oct 01 06:31
twitter2	never use it	Oct 01 06:31
cubezzz	ok, here's what they should do...	Oct 01 06:31
cubezzz	world-wide subway system	Oct 01 06:32
cubezzz	you stand on a pad	Oct 01 06:32
twitter2	France comes close	Oct 01 06:32
JPerlow	I know law firms with hundreds of thousands of legal documents in WP 5.x format	Oct 01 06:32
cubezzz	and the train automatically is dispatched	Oct 01 06:32
twitter2	Kword deals well with WP 5x	Oct 01 06:32
twitter2	as long as there's no pesky images of Visio stuck in it.	Oct 01 06:32
cubezzz	yeah lawyers still use WP	Oct 01 06:33
JPerlow	yeah, well law firms use specialized dictionaries	Oct 01 06:33
JPerlow	so they need to keep WP running for legacy documents	Oct 01 06:33
amarsh04	even wp5.1's general dictionary was pretty well stocked with specialised words	Oct 01 06:33
cubezzz	WP still exists, they still do updates?	Oct 01 06:33
twitter2	government corruption pushed Word into the law world	Oct 01 06:34
twitter2	it was a horrible thing	Oct 01 06:34
JPerlow	my wife hates word, she was an ami pro wiz	Oct 01 06:34
JPerlow	I gave her symphony for her personal use	Oct 01 06:34
amarsh04	I sold my copy of word for dos to my brother-in-law and my copy of borland sprint to a friend	Oct 01 06:35
cubezzz	WP even for Linux :-0	Oct 01 06:36
vcent	is that the word for DOS with the Function keys along the bottom ?	Oct 01 06:36
cubezzz	ah, Corel bought WP	Oct 01 06:36
JPerlow	a LONG time ago.	Oct 01 06:36
twitter2	why didn't you just give them a copy of your software, amarsh04?	Oct 01 06:36
twitter2	Using Windows and Word at work is like depressing.	Oct 01 06:37
vcent	about 1984	Oct 01 06:37
JPerlow	nah... 90s	Oct 01 06:37
vcent	you're right it could have been.	Oct 01 06:37
twitter2	it's like taking your Jetson floating car to a ice factory where you drive big blocks of ice around in horse buggies all day.	Oct 01 06:38
amarsh04	this was back in the days of proprietary and shareware word-processors... I had sprint and word that I wasn't using, and wp 5.1 that I was	Oct 01 06:38
vcent	we were using that, when the amiga had high end graphics and could display "chrome".	Oct 01 06:38
JPerlow	twiiter: we get it, you hate windows.	Oct 01 06:38
twitter2	I've got dozens to text editors for dozens of tasks.	Oct 01 06:38
*amarsh04 just found his wp5.1 for dos function key guide on the desk		Oct 01 06:39
twitter2	When I get to work, I have to use Word for everything.	Oct 01 06:39
vcent	Ive got one text editor for all my tasks.	Oct 01 06:39
twitter2	why?	Oct 01 06:39
vcent	because it does all my tasks.	Oct 01 06:39
amarsh04	Abiword on Debian has some issues that won't be solved until Abisoft issue their next stable release	Oct 01 06:40
amarsh04	so I use OOo for word processing	Oct 01 06:40
twitter2	what editor I use depends on the task.	Oct 01 06:40
twitter2	I'm using Pidgin....	Oct 01 06:41
amarsh04	mainly writing short letters, otherwise I use Quanta for html and leafpad for any ad-hoc text editing	Oct 01 06:41
amarsh04	and vi on configuration files	Oct 01 06:41
twitter2	I use kmail for letters	Oct 01 06:41
cubezzz	vi here too :)	Oct 01 06:41
twitter2	yes vi is great for config files	Oct 01 06:41
twitter2	fast and to the point	Oct 01 06:41
amarsh04	icedove for email	Oct 01 06:41
cubezzz	mutt for email :)	Oct 01 06:41
twitter2	choice is nice	Oct 01 06:41
twitter2	Outlook uses Word as a text editor!	Oct 01 06:42
cubezzz	and yes, sometimes I even use lynx	Oct 01 06:42
twitter2	I like Bluefish for html	Oct 01 06:42
twitter2	I prefer kile	Oct 01 06:42
twitter2	kile and kbibtex (?) are wonderful	Oct 01 06:43
amarsh04	lynx I use for local weather forecasts and electronic white pages	Oct 01 06:43
twitter2	yes, kbibtex	Oct 01 06:43
twitter2	when you wan to keep track of references kbibtex rocks	Oct 01 06:44
twitter2	-> An application to manage bibliography databases in the BibTeX format. KBibTeX can be used as a standalone program, but can also be embedded into other KDE applications (e.g. as bibliography editor into Kile). KBibTeX can query online ressources (e.g. Google scholar) via customizable search URLs. It is also able to import complete datasets from NCBI Pubmed. It also supports tagging references with keywords and manages re	Oct 01 06:45
vcent	it's not exactly true, when im writing code I will sometimes use textpad, and the WP in the development environment.	Oct 01 06:45
vcent	but programming is not WP'ing	Oct 01 06:45
twitter2	for code, I use kate or gnome's little text editor	Oct 01 06:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] At sp road , need to buy a new monitor and ups		Oct 01 06:46
twitter2	gedit	Oct 01 06:46
twitter2	all of it is tied together with konqueror	Oct 01 06:47
twitter2	and kontact	Oct 01 06:47
twitter2	I don't even want to start talking about all of the wonderful graphing and math software available, but those tasks also come with dozens of excellent options for dozens of specific tasks.	Oct 01 06:48
twitter2	So, I go from this amazing world of free abundance to the expensive desert of non free software at work.	Oct 01 06:49
twitter2	contrary to your notions of "works for me" and "getting work done" , software paywalls hamper people where I work every day.	Oct 01 06:52
*amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-193-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 06:52
fewa	oh cool	Oct 01 06:52
fewa	kbibtex	Oct 01 06:52
fewa	ill check that out	Oct 01 06:52
JPerlow	and what do you do for a living exactly?	Oct 01 06:53
twitter2	Kbibtex is worth using even if you never generate a bibliography. it's search features are wonderful.	Oct 01 06:53
twitter2	I'm an engineer and physicist	Oct 01 06:53
JPerlow	And why are you forced to use windows at work?	Oct 01 06:53
twitter2	management	Oct 01 06:54
twitter2	I'm not in a position to argue	Oct 01 06:54
JPerlow	well, go work for Fermilab or CERN. They use Linux exclusively. :)	Oct 01 06:54
cubezzz	cool	Oct 01 06:54
twitter2	Fermilab, is that still around?	Oct 01 06:55
JPerlow	I had the primary maintainer of SciLinux on my podcast.	Oct 01 06:55
twitter2	Jobs are hard to come by.	Oct 01 06:55
JPerlow	http://www.blogtalkradio.com/frugaltechshow/2009/07/17/Frugal-Friday-with-Fermilabs-Troy-Dawson	Oct 01 06:55
twitter2	I need to keep the one I have.	Oct 01 06:56
twitter2	Here's an example of a paywall inhibiting work. When an expensive piece of software uses Word as an editor, both pieces of software have to be on the machine or you can't get your work done.	Oct 01 06:57
twitter2	When both of those expensive pieces of software have difficult licensing and install processes, they don't end up on as many computers as you might need.	Oct 01 06:58
twitter2	Sure, people make due, but it's a royal pain.	Oct 01 06:58
vcent	pay for what you use is a common business strategy	Oct 01 06:59
twitter2	licensing costs are just the start!	Oct 01 07:00
twitter2	you have to pay someone to manage all that junk	Oct 01 07:00
twitter2	each install has to be paid for	Oct 01 07:00
twitter2	and then kept up	Oct 01 07:00
vcent	as does all hardware and software you're point is ?	Oct 01 07:00
twitter2	people end up holding on to the same system for ever	Oct 01 07:00
fewa	vcent == _Mutex_	Oct 01 07:00
twitter2	ha ha	Oct 01 07:01
JPerlow	well, don't worry. When the LHC fires up, we can all be proud SciLinux is running it	Oct 01 07:01
twitter2	my point is that it would be a lot easier to just apt-get install OO than it would be to have to beg someone to come and put Word on a machine so that a far more expensive piece of software will work	Oct 01 07:02
JPerlow	that is, of course, when it hits full power, we don't create strangelets and the entire world isnt sucked into a quantum singularity.	Oct 01 07:02
JPerlow	:)	Oct 01 07:02
vcent	I think _Mutex_ (mutual exclusion) is a mythical being you evoke everytime someone says something logical you dont agree with :D	Oct 01 07:02
twitter2	I did not see you say anything logica, mutex	Oct 01 07:02
vcent	fine,	Oct 01 07:03
vcent	tunnel vision will do that	Oct 01 07:03
twitter2	explain	Oct 01 07:03
twitter2	that's what I thought you said	Oct 01 07:04
twitter2	nothing at all	Oct 01 07:04
vcent	when you only see things in one color, you cannot see any shades, it's like if all you have as a tool is a hammer, sooner or later everything starts to look like a nail.	Oct 01 07:04
twitter2	projection	Oct 01 07:05
twitter2	mirror troll	Oct 01 07:05
fewa	vcent, WTF are you talking about?	Oct 01 07:05
fewa	its like the yesterday	Oct 01 07:05
vcent	and if ever anyone says something that is not your colour, you have to resort to name calling.	Oct 01 07:05
fewa	where you refused to even participate in discussion	Oct 01 07:06
twitter2	vcent is talking about Word, it's on topic.	Oct 01 07:06
vcent	try to keep up fewa	Oct 01 07:06
fewa	and instead kept railing that facts are unbiased	Oct 01 07:06
fewa	<vcent> when you only see things in one color, you cannot see any shades, it's like if all you have as a tool is a hammer, sooner or later everything starts to look like a nail.	Oct 01 07:06
fewa	this is just a bunch of BS	Oct 01 07:06
twitter2	vcent uses Word for everything. monocolor editor	Oct 01 07:06
twitter2	yes, mutex is full of crap.	Oct 01 07:06
vcent	nice, well thought out and logical retort.	Oct 01 07:07
twitter2	there is no reasonable answer to your nonsense	Oct 01 07:07
vcent	ok	Oct 01 07:07
twitter2	better to laugh at it	Oct 01 07:07
twitter2	a nail is a nail	Oct 01 07:08
twitter2	when it's rusty it's red	Oct 01 07:08
twitter2	violets are blue	Oct 01 07:08
twitter2	mutex is full of crap	Oct 01 07:08
*amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Oct 01 07:09
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfwSByIo4ks on how 100% fact can be totally misleading	Oct 01 07:09
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04		Oct 01 07:10
twitter2	hmm, misdirection?	Oct 01 07:10
twitter2	distraction?	Oct 01 07:10
twitter2	"death panels" is not a good term for health insurance types to lob around.	Oct 01 07:12
twitter2	they have their own	Oct 01 07:12
fewa	the private insurance death panels	Oct 01 07:12
fewa	...yeah	Oct 01 07:12
fewa	40,000 a year in the US die due to a lack of coverage	Oct 01 07:12
twitter2	it's uglier when private insurance companies decide who dies for profit than when a government clerk does for the public good	Oct 01 07:13
fewa	and medical rackets are the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US, and consequentally #1 cause in foreclosure	Oct 01 07:13
fewa	the government is accountable to the people	Oct 01 07:13
amarsh04	AT&T has a right to "privacy": http://privacylaw.proskauer.com/2009/09/articles/foia/since-when-does-a-legal-entity-have-privacy-rights/	Oct 01 07:13
fewa	if someone disagrees with medicare reimbursements they can contact their representative	Oct 01 07:13
twitter2	neither insurance companies nor the government should usurp medical decision making	Oct 01 07:14
fewa	they can hold hearings	Oct 01 07:14
twitter2	doctors should make the decisions	Oct 01 07:14
twitter2	ATT, violating your world.	Oct 01 07:14
fewa	if someone disagrees with a private insurers practices they can do two things: 1) dial a 1-800 number 2) buy shares in the company	Oct 01 07:14
fewa	twitter2, yes without the COI of for-profit sickness doctors can do their job much better	Oct 01 07:15
twitter2	if you could buy shares, you might as well pay the doctor	Oct 01 07:15
fewa	a majority of doctors in the US support a single-payer system	Oct 01 07:15
twitter2	that's good	Oct 01 07:15
fewa	twitter2, exactly, private insurers are complete unneccicary, they bring nothing to the table, and provide no essential service	Oct 01 07:15
fewa	yet they take 30% in profit and overhead	Oct 01 07:16
fewa	compared to 4% with medicare	Oct 01 07:16
twitter2	private insurance is supposed to distribute risk and do so efficiently. unregulated and merged, they are parasites	Oct 01 07:16
fewa	people say they don't want the government distributing their money---But this is exactly what insurance companies are doing!	Oct 01 07:16
fewa	except the for-profit insurers siphon it off to pharmeutical companies and wall street	Oct 01 07:17
fewa	instead of into health care	Oct 01 07:17
twitter2	If insurance companies were distributing money to hospitals and sick people, there would not be such a problem.	Oct 01 07:17
fewa	yes it is	Oct 01 07:17
twitter2	basically they put it in their pocket	Oct 01 07:17
fewa	because HMO's were from the beginning designed to keep people sick	Oct 01 07:17
fewa	twitter2, you should watch Sicko	Oct 01 07:18
twitter2	I've seen it	Oct 01 07:18
fewa	the call between Kaiser CEO and Richard Nixon	Oct 01 07:18
twitter2	it's good	Oct 01 07:18
fewa	where its very clear, HMOs are designed to deny coverage to people for a profit	Oct 01 07:18
twitter2	I don't like where he gets suckered in Cuba though.	Oct 01 07:18
twitter2	Cuba is not a free country, people there really can't say what they want.	Oct 01 07:18
fewa	they have an abundance of doctors	Oct 01 07:19
fewa	even though they only pay them $5/day	Oct 01 07:19
twitter2	it's hard to tell what Cuba has and does. There's not free press or accountability	Oct 01 07:19
twitter2	A communist state is the ultimate merger state.	Oct 01 07:19
fewa	and the US was so arrogent that the Administration refused to allow a specially-trained cuban group for helping after hurricanes	Oct 01 07:20
fewa	for Katrina	Oct 01 07:20
twitter2	refusing aid is stupid	Oct 01 07:20
fewa	twitter2, I know people that have traveled to Cuba	Oct 01 07:20
fewa	said it was great	Oct 01 07:20
twitter2	but the "fellow travelers" scam is an old, old fraud	Oct 01 07:20
fewa	there is a law that if someone is hitchiking you _have_ to pick them up	Oct 01 07:20
fewa	twitter2, how does fraud fit in?	Oct 01 07:21
twitter2	the Soviet Union pioneered this kind of PR.	Oct 01 07:21
twitter2	and control	Oct 01 07:21
fewa	what are you talking about?	Oct 01 07:21
twitter2	the way it works is you tightly control your borders	Oct 01 07:21
twitter2	and only allow a small number of very well watched people to come and go	Oct 01 07:22
fewa	Cuba doesn't have tightly controled borders	Oct 01 07:22
fewa	this friend went for music reasons	Oct 01 07:22
twitter2	entertainers are a prime example	Oct 01 07:22
fewa	you go through Mexico and the Cubans will agree to not stamp your passport	Oct 01 07:22
fewa	and what about the US's crimes?	Oct 01 07:23
fewa	the guantanamo occupation there	Oct 01 07:23
twitter2	Just imagine what things would be like if Exxon, Microsoft, all fast food chains, GE, everyone merged up.	Oct 01 07:23
fewa	which is from a treaty pushed through at gunpoint	Oct 01 07:23
twitter2	Imagine a state with one official news agency	Oct 01 07:23
fewa	and even that treaty we are not fallowing	Oct 01 07:23
fewa	as it said nothing about prisoniers, or any sort of base	Oct 01 07:24
fewa	but just whaling and a port	Oct 01 07:24
twitter2	a communist state resembles the worst aspects of corporate hierarchy.	Oct 01 07:24
fewa	the US is holding Guantanamo to crush Cuban development at that whole side of the island	Oct 01 07:24
fewa	they have a better infant mortality rate than the US	Oct 01 07:25
twitter2	how do you know?	Oct 01 07:25
fewa	twitter2, how is the US differnt?	Oct 01 07:25
twitter2	the US may have corporate controlled media, but you can still publish independently	Oct 01 07:26
twitter2	in places like China and Cuba, you go to jail for that kind of thing	Oct 01 07:26
fewa	big media	Oct 01 07:26
fewa	ok	Oct 01 07:26
twitter2	I have to admit that the US is becoming more like a Communist state.	Oct 01 07:26
fewa	I agree civil rights have to be defended	Oct 01 07:27
twitter2	protesters are arrested, lists of dissidents are compiled and the victims are denied jobs, living quarters, bank loans and other things without trial	Oct 01 07:28
fewa	citizens have to have a say in those things which they have a stake in	Oct 01 07:28
twitter2	Large, merged companies are given monopolies over vital utilities	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	stock holders must be stakeholders	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	<twitter2> Large, merged companies are given monopolies over vital utilities	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	umm thats the US	Oct 01 07:29
twitter2	yes, that's the US.	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	mining act of 1897	Oct 01 07:29
twitter2	but all of these tendencies are taken to their logical conclusion in Communist states.	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	if you find oil, if you find gold	Oct 01 07:29
fewa	you dont pay a cent to the government	Oct 01 07:30
fewa	instead the land is given away to railroads, which become lumber companies	Oct 01 07:30
twitter2	people don't have the right to express themselves in a place where retaliation can be complete and total	Oct 01 07:31
fewa	which then outlaw hemp	Oct 01 07:31
fewa	cause it threatens their business	Oct 01 07:31
fewa	and Dow chemical is in on it too, outlawing hemp so they can sell nylon	Oct 01 07:32
twitter2	Was there really a secret nuclear facility in Iran?	Oct 01 07:32
fewa	its political hype	Oct 01 07:32
twitter2	or is this Weapons of Mass Destruction part 2?	Oct 01 07:32
fewa	it sounds like Bush	Oct 01 07:33
JPerlow	um, no.	Oct 01 07:33
JPerlow	They most certainly have a facility.	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	you know it was Clinton that first said Iraq could have WMDs	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	JPerlow, Clinton said Iraq had WMDs	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	it wasn't just Bush	Oct 01 07:33
twitter2	Iran has facilities and they have been inspected before	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	people believed it then	Oct 01 07:33
JPerlow	Iraq had cycoltrons.	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	and it was all fake	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	they were defenseless	Oct 01 07:33
twitter2	Iraq had squat	Oct 01 07:33
fewa	JPerlow, so why would you believe those same people now?	Oct 01 07:34
JPerlow	I beleive Israel.	Oct 01 07:34
fewa	same people who said Iraq was going to come onto US soil and kill you	Oct 01 07:34
JPerlow	I dont have to beleive our government.	Oct 01 07:34
twitter2	Israel was riding the same WoMD train too.	Oct 01 07:34
fewa	JPerlow, which Israel? The one buoyed by US money, or the citizens who live their?	Oct 01 07:35
fewa	US nukes, planes, artillery	Oct 01 07:35
JPerlow	5th amendment.	Oct 01 07:35
JPerlow	:)	Oct 01 07:35
twitter2	are you part of the Israeli government?	Oct 01 07:36
fewa	thats the only reason there was never a 2-state solution agreed to	Oct 01 07:36
fewa	the politicians gain alot out of continued theatre	Oct 01 07:36
fewa	but not the people	Oct 01 07:36
twitter2	ah yes, I've seen a picture from 1993 .... that too seems to have been a lie	Oct 01 07:36
twitter2	the smaller state has been bombed into the stone age.	Oct 01 07:37
fewa	the palistinians who are being systematically dehumanized, pushed out of their lands, wall built around them	Oct 01 07:37
fewa	starved to death	Oct 01 07:37
twitter2	and is blockaded to this day	Oct 01 07:37
JPerlow	Iran has far more sophisticated infrastructure than Iraq.	Oct 01 07:37
fewa	Iran is a powerful society	Oct 01 07:37
fewa	they are good friends with China	Oct 01 07:37
twitter2	they might, Sadam's partnership with the Soviet Union was not profitable	Oct 01 07:38
fewa	which is propping up the abusers in Iranian society	Oct 01 07:38
fewa	to keep the oil flowing	Oct 01 07:38
twitter2	Maybe China will root out the WoMD for us.	Oct 01 07:38
twitter2	That would be a trick. ;-)	Oct 01 07:39
fewa	I think China would rather they have weapons	Oct 01 07:39
fewa	hell there are US bases on all sides of Iran	Oct 01 07:39
twitter2	China has weapons.	Oct 01 07:39
fewa	we have massive military deployments on both sides of them	Oct 01 07:39
twitter2	but they might make the world safe for demoncracy by invading Iran and finding the secret nuclear facilities	Oct 01 07:39
fewa	What would you feel like if China was occupying Mexico and Canada	Oct 01 07:39
fewa	???	Oct 01 07:40
twitter2	If is was OK for the US to invade Iraq over WoMD, would it not be OK for China to do the same to Iran?	Oct 01 07:40
fewa	+Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, UAE, Dubai, Bahain	Oct 01 07:41
twitter2	I mean, China is a respectable, most favored trading partner.	Oct 01 07:41
fewa	we gave Nukes to Pakistan, India	Oct 01 07:41
twitter2	You would think that a country like that would help out and keep the world safe from those deamonized people in Iran.	Oct 01 07:41
vcent	they developed their own	Oct 01 07:41
fewa	"most favored"	Oct 01 07:41
fewa	our child labor co-opter	Oct 01 07:42
fewa	cause to companies cant do it to US-workers anymore	Oct 01 07:42
twitter2	Shouldn't the world be grateful if the US makes a case for invasion but the Chinese do all the hard work of conq^H^H^H^H securing Iran?	Oct 01 07:42
fewa	vcent, the US under Bush gave large amounts of uranium and enrichment utilites	Oct 01 07:42
fewa	twitter2, then it would just be good-cop bad-cop	Oct 01 07:43
twitter2	I'm joking of course	Oct 01 07:43
vcent	who gave Iran their first reactor ?? thats right the US :)	Oct 01 07:44
twitter2	it's easier to see the absurdity of conquering Iran by asking if it would be OK for someone else to do it.	Oct 01 07:44
JPerlow	We won't need to do it.	Oct 01 07:44
twitter2	If it's the right thing for the US to do, it should be th right thing for anyone to do.	Oct 01 07:44
fewa	vcent, what are you talking about?	Oct 01 07:44
fewa	you love ranting raving, and fabricating junk	Oct 01 07:45
twitter2	mutex probably remembers GE reactors sent to the Shaw.	Oct 01 07:45
fewa	<twitter2> it's easier to see the absurdity of conquering Iran by asking if it would be OK for someone else to do it.	Oct 01 07:45
fewa	exactly	Oct 01 07:45
fewa	you have to realize your own propaganidized bias	Oct 01 07:45
JPerlow	I agree. Let Israel take out their enrichment facilities.	Oct 01 07:46
fewa	Rice said in respect to Iraq "We wouldn't have so many troubles if we could just stop the import of foreign arms"	Oct 01 07:46
fewa	and noone batted an eyelash	Oct 01 07:46
fewa	because of course, the United States is local	Oct 01 07:46
twitter2	I don't think Israel has the means to do the job	Oct 01 07:46
fewa	anywhere we go we are locals	Oct 01 07:46
JPerlow	then by all means, let's give them the tools. :)	Oct 01 07:47
twitter2	Better let Russia or China do it.	Oct 01 07:47
fewa	JPerlow, Israel==US militarily	Oct 01 07:47
twitter2	Israel lacks manpower	Oct 01 07:47
JPerlow	And yes, they do have the means.	Oct 01 07:47
twitter2	Israel has bombs, but no one can really use them	Oct 01 07:47
twitter2	even a "limited" nuclear exchange would cause climate change that would kill billions of people	Oct 01 07:48
JPerlow	what makes you think they would need to use nuclear weapons?	Oct 01 07:48
fewa	"need"	Oct 01 07:48
twitter2	expediency	Oct 01 07:48
fewa	JPerlow, when is there ever a "need"	Oct 01 07:48
fewa	who needs?	Oct 01 07:48
fewa	i'm sure citizens do not want it	Oct 01 07:49
JPerlow	I'm talking about destroying hardened targets.	Oct 01 07:49
JPerlow	not the ethics or morality of using a nuclear weapon.	Oct 01 07:49
fewa	your talking about destroying natural resources	Oct 01 07:49
twitter2	Why risk your friends when we could just let China do it?	Oct 01 07:49
fewa	creating large expanses of fallout	Oct 01 07:49
vcent	battlefield low yeald nukes are available in the US arsinal	Oct 01 07:50
JPerlow	As I said, no need to use nuclear weapons to destroy a hardened target.	Oct 01 07:50
twitter2	I don't think you can just bomb a few facilities and have the threat go away.	Oct 01 07:50
twitter2	Iran can just keep building them deeper	Oct 01 07:50
fewa	vcent, "low yield" is >100X bigger than little boy of fat man	Oct 01 07:50
twitter2	an invasion is called for by US propagandists	Oct 01 07:51
vcent	10MegaTonne range or less.	Oct 01 07:51
fewa	if you kick someone they will raise up, galvinized	Oct 01 07:51
twitter2	Israel lacks the manpower for such a thing. so does the US, as our bankrupting wars prove	Oct 01 07:51
twitter2	so let's let China do it.	Oct 01 07:51
twitter2	if it's right for us to do it, it's right for China	Oct 01 07:51
twitter2	then people can't accuse the Chinese of supporting an exploitative local government.	Oct 01 07:52
fewa	http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090928/wiener	Oct 01 07:52
twitter2	we can be sure the Chinese will bring liberty and freedom, just like the US did to Iraq	Oct 01 07:52
fewa	Obama's CIA-on-Campus Program	Oct 01 07:53
vcent	CIA recruits off campus for ever	Oct 01 07:53
fewa	each student will have to get security clearences, will have to apply to the govenment for admission to program, not the school	Oct 01 07:53
fewa	and will be required to work for CIA afterwards	Oct 01 07:53
fewa	this is not just recruitmet	Oct 01 07:53
twitter2	the agnostic will say, "it works for me"	Oct 01 07:55
fewa	:P	Oct 01 07:55
fewa	and other stratospheric rhetoric	Oct 01 07:56
twitter2	WoMD words, better put me in jail.	Oct 01 07:56
twitter2	water board me, you will find the secret words you are looking for	Oct 01 07:57
vcent	ex military, collage grads/university grads, and journo's are most commonly recruited as "silent" members of security agencies. you might be surprised how many too.	Oct 01 07:59
twitter2	hmmm, secret nuclear facilities unlikely, no need to spill Chinese blood over it -> Nuclear analysts say it would have been almost impossible for the Iranians to divert uranium fuel to the Qom enrichment facility from its conversion plant in Isfahan without being spotted by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), which constantly monitors Isfahan.	Oct 01 08:00
twitter2	http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/27/iran-test-launch-missiles-nuclear	Oct 01 08:00
*jono has quit ("Later, Skater")		Oct 01 08:02
fewa	vcent, are you one of them?	Oct 01 08:02
twitter2	the same thing was done to Iraq. They marched all over, demanding inspections at times when no one was around to create a picture of non compliance before we invaded and found nothing.	Oct 01 08:02
fewa	Its all rhetoric	Oct 01 08:03
twitter2	mutex is anything but silent	Oct 01 08:03
twitter2	not much of intelligence there either.	Oct 01 08:03
fewa	they just fabricate whatever they want to retroactively justify their own plans	Oct 01 08:03
twitter2	he belongs to the M$ Intelligence Agency (MIA), who's goal is to inject rather than extract information	Oct 01 08:04
fewa	and people are up on it	Oct 01 08:04
fewa	Iraq and Afghanistan wars are highly unpopular	Oct 01 08:04
fewa	despite soaring spin of the mass media	Oct 01 08:05
fewa	half of the Federal budget is military	Oct 01 08:05
fewa	that is quite disturbing	Oct 01 08:06
*magentar (n=magentar@ip-62-143-93-17.unitymediagroup.de) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 08:06
fewa	Its a War-bringing society	Oct 01 08:07
fewa	or at least government	Oct 01 08:07
fewa	"Department of Defense" is a farse	Oct 01 08:09
vcent	fewa why ?	Oct 01 08:09
fewa	vcent, because it wages war	Oct 01 08:11
fewa	http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Xe-Blackwater_warcrimes_case:_complaint%2C_2009	Oct 01 08:12
fewa	http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Xe-Blackwater_warcrimes_case:_employee_declaration%2C_2009	Oct 01 08:12
fewa	http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Xe-Blackwater_warcrimes_case:_employee_declarations%2C_legal_complaint_and_motions%2C_2009	Oct 01 08:12
vcent	blackwater were not "dept of def".	Oct 01 08:13
fewa	vcent, who funds blackwater?	Oct 01 08:13
vcent	You do.	Oct 01 08:13
fewa	where are the monies apportioned from?	Oct 01 08:13
vcent	US taxpayers	Oct 01 08:14
fewa	Dept of Defense	Oct 01 08:14
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 08:24
fewa	"Politically motivated hype" http://www.democracynow.org/2009/9/29/fmr_un_weapons_inspector_scott_ritter	Oct 01 08:27
fewa	former UN weapons inspector	Oct 01 08:27
fewa	(in resp. Iran)	Oct 01 08:27
fewa	...watch the runup to invasion happen now....	Oct 01 08:28
fewa	IAEA has stated that Iran is in compliance	Oct 01 08:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] A reheat of a MS story just as Win 7 is about out? And the BBC claim they're unbiased lol http://tinyurl.com/lbxzgy		Oct 01 08:48
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 09:01
schestowitz	Another PPT ad from the MSBBC	Oct 01 09:04
schestowitz	But I saw it when it was published	Oct 01 09:04
ThistleWeb	I don't think they republished it, however it is suspicious that after so long off the "most clicked" etc it suddenly shoots back tot he top, at the time MS are courting publicity for the release of a new flagship product	Oct 01 09:07
ThistleWeb	this makes me wonder if the BBC admins fucked with the hit count behind the scenes	Oct 01 09:07
schestowitz	I can't get myself to remove BBC>>Tech from my feeds	Oct 01 09:21
schestowitz	I did with CNN	Oct 01 09:21
schestowitz	The BBC has some interesting articles sometimes	Oct 01 09:21
fewa	ive never read one	Oct 01 09:29
fewa	bland, bland, and them some propaganda	Oct 01 09:29
fewa	its all spun	Oct 01 09:30
smellyhippy	surely you just contradicted yourself?	Oct 01 09:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Why does hashwindows RT my comments then seem to delete them? Does it not like free speech? #windows #microsoft #vista #linux		Oct 01 09:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] XP – Still no reason for upgrade? Vista users "f***ing livid"? #windows #microsoft #vista #xp #windows7 http://tinyurl.com/yc3hvww		Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	fewa: I just glance at headlines	Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	Getting a sample of things	Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	They never break the news	Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	They deliver it day/s late	Oct 01 09:35
_goblin	welcome smellyhippy!	Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	But people still see BBC URLs are 'trusted'	Oct 01 09:35
schestowitz	_goblin: it's a troll	Oct 01 09:36
_goblin	yep	Oct 01 09:36
_goblin	I gathered...	Oct 01 09:36
schestowitz	:-)	Oct 01 09:36
_goblin	Let me guess....	Oct 01 09:36
schestowitz	Yes, but provably, too	Oct 01 09:36
_goblin	Linux unwashed?	Oct 01 09:36
smellyhippy	lol I'm a troll for pointing out an inconsistancy :S	Oct 01 09:36
schestowitz	Not, for previous encounters	Oct 01 09:36
_goblin	speak to Microsoft, they are the experts.	Oct 01 09:36
amarsh04	loved this comment: http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=20090927151401988&title=Perlow%20proves%20himself%20not%20worth%20any%20space%20in%20my%20head&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=790574#c790592	Oct 01 09:36
smellyhippy	I didnt say the opinion was wrong ... just inconsistant :P	Oct 01 09:36
benJIman	smellyhippy: Anyone who does not agree with schestowitz is a troll.	Oct 01 09:37
_goblin	what about using the term "diverse"	Oct 01 09:37
smellyhippy	benJIman: indeed ;)	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	benJIman: nope	Oct 01 09:37
_goblin	lol	Oct 01 09:37
_goblin	two now.	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	People who come here to disrupt are trolls	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	Disrupt as in disrupt	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	Not disagree	Oct 01 09:37
smellyhippy	I'm not here to disrupt, I'm here to listen	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	_goblin: benJIman is from OpenSUSE	Oct 01 09:37
_goblin	lol...	Oct 01 09:37
schestowitz	When things heat up he informs friends at the SUSE channel/s	Oct 01 09:38
smellyhippy	and i didnt disagree ... i just pointed out syaing you havent actually experienced something and then giving an opinion on the experience is flawed	Oct 01 09:38
schestowitz	smellyhippy: OK	Oct 01 09:38
_goblin	OpenSUSE falling down the distrowatch charts.....poor novell.	Oct 01 09:38
schestowitz	They created a team recently	Oct 01 09:38
_goblin	and to think, if they had just stuck to their guns in respect of Microsoft they could have been where Canonical is now.	Oct 01 09:38
schestowitz	_goblin: not "poor Novell"	Oct 01 09:38
schestowitz	OpenSUSE/SuSE is not Novell	Oct 01 09:38
schestowitz	It's bad for the people behind the real SuSE	Oct 01 09:39
schestowitz	Not the United Linux SLE	Oct 01 09:39
schestowitz	_goblin: SuSE was ahead of Canonical at the time, from my POV	Oct 01 09:39
benJIman	_goblin: Because page-views on distrowatch are obviously an accurate indication of distribution popularity.	Oct 01 09:39
_goblin	true..	Oct 01 09:39
_goblin	but then the MS faithful base their entire argument off similar stats.	Oct 01 09:40
schestowitz	SUSE was just coming out with Compiz	Oct 01 09:40
_goblin	so whats good for the goose is good for the gander......	Oct 01 09:40
schestowitz	And it mastered more than one DE, unlike Ubuntu, which was just Debian with GNOME and brown	Oct 01 09:40
schestowitz	It was more brown than orange at the time	Oct 01 09:40
_goblin	Rusty	Oct 01 09:40
_goblin	been impressed with the new Wine....	Oct 01 09:41
vcent	I think "baby shit brown" is the most accurate term for that color	Oct 01 09:41
_goblin	theres some nasty demoscene DX hacks which Wine copes with nicely now....demostrated in the ODD demo.	Oct 01 09:42
_goblin	Danish school moves 1700 computers to Openoffice......thats one less glass of champagne for the shareholders meeting: http://www.osor.eu/news/dk-lyngby-taarbek-moves-schools-to-openoffice	Oct 01 09:44
fewa	ubuntu is not brown	Oct 01 09:45
fewa	its orange	Oct 01 09:45
fewa	and vcent's slander is not appropriate language	Oct 01 09:45
vcent	which rymes with ?	Oct 01 09:46
fewa	ie _Mutex_'s slander	Oct 01 09:46
vcent	what slander ?	Oct 01 09:46
vcent	citation please	Oct 01 09:46
vcent	thats what I thougt	Oct 01 09:47
_goblin	you think?....congratulations...I presumed you were a spam bot.	Oct 01 09:55
_goblin	found my first incompat issue with the Chromium beta.....Quake Live.	Oct 01 10:05
_goblin	at the rate its developing though I wouldnt think it will take long to be implemented	Oct 01 10:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Hollywood Linux \| The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/ycnzbm9		Oct 01 10:07
fewa	does it work with safari?	Oct 01 10:11
fewa	wtf	Oct 01 10:13
fewa	its not even a browser game	Oct 01 10:13
fewa	its based on an .xpi	Oct 01 10:13
fewa	of course it wont work	Oct 01 10:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Offers Free #Security , Too http://ping.fm/3DxDF		Oct 01 10:14
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz		Oct 01 10:14
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to fewa		Oct 01 10:14
fewa	non-free security-trusted software	Oct 01 10:14
_goblin	I didnt know it was xpi until install.	Oct 01 10:15
_goblin	having said that I believe in a world of two equals not a domination of either proprietary or FOSS....	Oct 01 10:16
fewa	its a matter of trust	Oct 01 10:17
fewa	if it is supposedly (claimed) a crime to look at what the software does, why would I ever entrust it with my private data?	Oct 01 10:17
fewa	or access to my private data?	Oct 01 10:18
vcent	it's called "fair use" you are allowed to know what the software does, and you are allowed to use it as it was intended, you are just not allowed to know "HOW" it does what it does. That is what the effort has gone into the development of what it does.	Oct 01 10:22
vcent	So you buy and use it for what it does, not for you to work out how it does it,	Oct 01 10:22
fewa	.kb vcent no, you cannot know what it does, because there is no way to verify that that is all it does. This has nothing to do with USC 17 S 107	Oct 01 10:23
fewa sets ban on !i=3aa86da0@*gateway/web/freenode/x-wtrqmotqygnahxhn		Oct 01 10:23
*fewa has kicked vcent from #boycottnovell (no, you cannot know what it does, because there is no way to verify that that is all it does. This has nothing to do with USC 17 S 107)		Oct 01 10:23
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fewa	17 U.S.C. § 107 is fair use	Oct 01 10:24
fewa	http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html	Oct 01 10:24
fewa	Microsoft (along with the Linux Foundation) has specifically called on their to be no legal redress if software does not do as advertised, or if software has hidden defects which were kept from customers	Oct 01 10:26
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fewa	making undisclosed back holes in proprietary software presumably legal	Oct 01 10:26
vcent_	read the GPL recently ?	Oct 01 10:26
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*fewa has kicked vcent_ from #boycottnovell (fewa)		Oct 01 10:26
fewa sets ban on !i=@gateway/web/freenode/*		Oct 01 10:27
fewa	once again a suggestion by vcent that is totally misleading	Oct 01 10:28
fewa	Not unlike the Karl Rove video Mutex has not awknowledged	Oct 01 10:29
fewa	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfwSByIo4ks	Oct 01 10:29
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smellyhippy	why do you shout about other people censoring you but then you censor others with very little provocation? ... thats a real quesiton, not trolling, I'm genuinely interested.	Oct 01 10:31
fewa removes ban on !i=3aa86da0@*gateway/web/freenode/x-pgfmhhhleyawmyqx		Oct 01 10:31
fewa removes ban on !i=3aa86da0@*gateway/web/freenode/x-wtrqmotqygnahxhn		Oct 01 10:31
fewa	smellyhippy, the suggestion was that the liability waivers in the GPL somehow is differn't	Oct 01 10:32
fewa	but no, such waivers are in all software if you read the fine print	Oct 01 10:32
fewa	and the legal liability that Microsoft opposed was not disclaimable	Oct 01 10:32
fewa	so such things are besides the point	Oct 01 10:32
smellyhippy	yet rather than foster discusion on the topic which helps provide alternative views and better understanding for everyone you removed the person after a single line fro mthen and with no warning	Oct 01 10:32
fewa	also, Mutex was evading a bad	Oct 01 10:33
fewa	fallowing having trolled this channel for months	Oct 01 10:33
fewa	*ban	Oct 01 10:33
smellyhippy	fair enough, I admit I havent seen the history on this	Oct 01 10:33
fewa	he has been banned many times	Oct 01 10:33
fewa	occasionally he contributes to discussion	Oct 01 10:33
fewa	all the logs for this channel are available at boycottnovell.com	Oct 01 10:34
smellyhippy	btw you want to ban using his ident since thats a hex encode of his IP .... obviously it wont stop him using another IP but it'll stop him from just restarting webchat and coming back in	Oct 01 10:34
fewa	his origional and longest ident was Mutex	Oct 01 10:34
fewa	but he doesnt use that anymore	Oct 01 10:34
fewa	it would be too easy to block	Oct 01 10:34
smellyhippy	you can't choose your ident with the webchat	Oct 01 10:34
smellyhippy	but yeah it's easy to evade bans	Oct 01 10:35
fewa	o *!i=3aa86da0	Oct 01 10:35
fewa	ok	Oct 01 10:35
fewa removes ban on !i=@gateway/web/freenode/*		Oct 01 10:35
fewa sets ban on !i=3aa86da0@gateway/web/freenode/		Oct 01 10:35
fewa	how is it determined?	Oct 01 10:35
smellyhippy	it's a hex of the users IP	Oct 01 10:35
fewa	but what about the /x-wtrqmotqygnahxhn oart?	Oct 01 10:36
smellyhippy	thats random afaik	Oct 01 10:36
smellyhippy	http://www.kloth.net/services/iplocate.php that can convert the hex if you want to see the original IP	Oct 01 10:36
smellyhippy	also does a reverse lookup for the host	Oct 01 10:37
MinceR	if you don't want to depend on identd running on that gateway, use "?=" instead of "i=" :>	Oct 01 10:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft and English-speaking Countries http://ping.fm/x9rya		Oct 01 10:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the go-betweens get their own bridge! http://is.gd/3Q8AX		Oct 01 10:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Groklaw comes under fire for speaking about taboo areas http://ping.fm/H1dY7		Oct 01 11:47
schestowitz	trmanco: ping.	Oct 01 11:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell Removes #GIMP , Adds Proprietary Software http://ping.fm/Qqmkm #sled #suse		Oct 01 12:09
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trmanco	schestowitz: yes?	Oct 01 12:31
trmanco	my connection was temporarily down (45 mins)	Oct 01 12:31
schestowitz	Where is the program?	Oct 01 12:31
trmanco	coming	Oct 01 12:32
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fewa	http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/19/software-freedom-day-in-boston/	Oct 01 12:34
phIRCe	Title: Software Freedom Day in Boston « DoctorMO's Blog .::. Size~: 39.64 KB	Oct 01 12:34
fewa	"Control has replaced Free Speech in Stallman’s the rhetoric. This is one of the most noticeable things I took away from today, that there has been a cultural shift from the way proponents of Free Software talk and communicate about the ideas and rationalities of Free Software principles. Although I’ve been picking up on the same advantages to using control language instead of freedom of speech in my own advocacy.	Oct 01 12:34
fewa	"	Oct 01 12:34
fewa	What is the free speech argument?	Oct 01 12:34
fewa	*line	Oct 01 12:35
fewa	I know well the ways proprietary software wishes to control people	Oct 01 12:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @OmkarDutta Just gave 5 Google Wave invites. Only 86 invites left. Follow me and RT this to get one :)		Oct 01 12:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @OmkarDutta: Guys only 80 invites left for Google Wave. Follow me and RT this to get one. 22 invites already sent :)		Oct 01 12:36
fewa	For all the talk of Wave, the GUI is currently propritary software	Oct 01 12:38
MinceR	and it's software from google	Oct 01 12:40
MinceR	so it probably sucks anyway	Oct 01 12:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @dubs20 I Just gave 14 Google Wave invites Only 86 invites left. Follow me and RT this to get one :) First come first serve		Oct 01 12:42
fewa	when will I be able to life fork a system running Linux+btrfs?	Oct 01 12:43
fewa	like a giant OS fork() call with COW	Oct 01 12:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @dubs20: Just gave 36 Google Wave invites out...Only 64 invites left. Follow me and RT this to get one :) First come first serve...		Oct 01 12:44
schestowitz	[opensuse-announce] openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 8 Released	Oct 01 12:47
MinceR	fewa: that sounds difficult	Oct 01 12:48
schestowitz	Waves crash	Oct 01 12:48
fewa	it would be the culunination of COW fs + in-kernel virtualization (openvz, etc) + process freezing + memCOW	Oct 01 12:49
fewa	important is namespace issues	Oct 01 12:50
fewa	which could be done by openvz/vserver	Oct 01 12:50
fewa	and then communication without outside world	Oct 01 12:51
fewa	ip address/mac addresses etc	Oct 01 12:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @dubs20: Just got rid of 63 Google Wave invites out...Only 37 invites left. Follow me and RT this to get one :) First come first serve...		Oct 01 12:52
fewa	current virtualization software can do it, but not COW, and not efficiently	Oct 01 12:52
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fewa	and it requires a COW snapshot and snapshot-of-snapshot capable filesystem	Oct 01 12:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @dubs20: Just got rid of 72 Google Wave invites out...Only 18 invites left. Follow me and RT this to get one :) First come first serve...		Oct 01 12:55
fewa	I guess it was oiaohm that I had the discussion with b/f	Oct 01 12:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Dodges #Patent #Law Again, #Moblin and Patents Revisited http://ping.fm/BDAiT		Oct 01 12:58
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schestowitz	fewa: are you scientes? SOmeone asked.	Oct 01 12:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♻ @dubs20: There almost all gone Im picking 7 ppl for the last of my Google Wave invites...Follow me and RT this to get one :)		Oct 01 13:04
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Rocknerd: Take it to the bridge. http://bit.ly/41MLGD		Oct 01 13:35
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] The Ubuntu App Store \| The Digital Prism http://tinyurl.com/y875ucy		Oct 01 13:37
schestowitz	Maggie Shiels loves writing about Microsoft, but this new article mentioned neither Microsoft nor Windows http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8279867.stm	Oct 01 13:41
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schestowitz	"it's a COMPUTER problem!!"	Oct 01 13:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Latest UK "secret" gagging order leaked http://is.gd/3Qnb6 I wonder when Wikileaks will be put into the IWF filter		Oct 01 13:48
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Omar87	Hi all.	Oct 01 14:07
Omar87	Did Google really shut down Android Mod?	Oct 01 14:07
MinceR	i've only heard of the Cyanogen shitshorm	Oct 01 14:23
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oiaohm	Omar87: kinda.	Oct 01 14:31
oiaohm	The issue with the Mod was it shipping closed source applications google did not give them approval to ship.	Oct 01 14:31
oiaohm	Pure normal legal issue.	Oct 01 14:32
oiaohm	We really cannot complain too much.	Oct 01 14:32
Omar87	oiaohm: So, this doesn't mean Google is stabbing FOSS in the back?	Oct 01 14:35
oiaohm	Not at this stage Omar87	Oct 01 14:36
oiaohm	Google has the legal right to release closed source parts and control the shipping of them.	Oct 01 14:37
oiaohm	Biggest issue the author of the mod did not even ask google if they could. So leaving google in the bad location either it protected it software or it did not.	Oct 01 14:38
oiaohm	Failing to protect its software would have set a bad future state for google.	Oct 01 14:38
MinceR	actually, legality is not the end-all be-all of values in our world, at least not yet.	Oct 01 14:40
MinceR	the issue is that android is hyped as if it was FLOSS, yet in practice it isn't	Oct 01 14:41
oiaohm	Depends where MinceR	Oct 01 14:41
MinceR	and people who are trying to improve it get slapped on the wrist	Oct 01 14:41
MinceR	even though there's a lot of room for improvement	Oct 01 14:41
MinceR	(even though imo it should start by throwing out most of the design they have now)	Oct 01 14:41
oiaohm	Android application support in like of Ubuntu have not been slapped.	Oct 01 14:42
oiaohm	The maintainer of that asked google.	Oct 01 14:42
oiaohm	If you don't ask for permission to use some parts you should expect to get slaped for it from time to time.	Oct 01 14:42
oiaohm	For app stores and the like its key that the application stays upto date so people don't have download issues and the like.	Oct 01 14:43
oiaohm	Basically google had no option bar to defend in the case at hand.	Oct 01 14:44
MinceR	google shouldn't have insisted on making those apps proprietary	Oct 01 14:44
MinceR	it doesn't make them any better	Oct 01 14:44
Diablo-D3	they're actually fixing that	Oct 01 14:45
Diablo-D3	they're writing foss versions of those apps	Oct 01 14:45
Diablo-D3	should be out sometime next year	Oct 01 14:45
oiaohm	Yes the correct legal answer as Diablo-D3 stated.	Oct 01 14:46
oiaohm	Android is open source but the app store is not and the devices are basically tpm protected blocking firmware replacement.	Oct 01 14:47
oiaohm	Basically Android is open source for device makers. Not open source for end users.	Oct 01 14:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Librarian to prude: "fuck off." Much more nicely, of course. http://is.gd/3QrG4		Oct 01 14:48
phIRCe	Title: File:Aldabra tortoises mating 1.JPG - Wikimedia Commons .::. Size~: 35.58 KB	Oct 01 14:48
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: even then no	Oct 01 14:48
Diablo-D3	they're trying to please everybody	Oct 01 14:48
Diablo-D3	lots of app authors love bugs and security issues, so they write closed source	Oct 01 14:48
Diablo-D3	everyone else living in the real world wants open source	Oct 01 14:48
schestowitz	Will People Pay CNN To Help Them Report The News? < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090930/0337276372.shtml >	Oct 01 14:48
phIRCe	Title: Will People Pay CNN To Help Them Report The News? \| Techdirt .::. Size~: 46.52 KB	Oct 01 14:48
oiaohm	Phone carriors like control of software on phones Diablo-D3	Oct 01 14:49
oiaohm	So preventing random applications in play.	Oct 01 14:49
schestowitz	Oct 01 13:41:46 -christel-[Global Notice] Hi all, unfortunately one of our former developers has left behind a memory leak in our ircd software which means we'll need to restart several ircds over the next few days. We're going to stagger it to reduce disruption, and the first round will be happening very shortly. Affected users for now will be about 1300. Apologies for the inconvenience!	Oct 01 14:50
oiaohm	Yes nice schestowitz	Oct 01 14:50
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oiaohm	They are being truthful about the problem. Many years ago it would have been writen up as general work.	Oct 01 14:51
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: sadly yes	Oct 01 14:51
Diablo-D3	but google wants to kill cell phone carriers	Oct 01 14:52
schestowitz	oiaohm: I pulled this one from another node. It didn't make it to some	Oct 01 14:52
Diablo-D3	why do you think they want the 700mhz bands they have?	Oct 01 14:52
Diablo-D3	free public internet access, just buy a android++ device	Oct 01 14:52
schestowitz	They can't.	Oct 01 14:52
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: oh but they can	Oct 01 14:53
schestowitz	If they tried to tie phone to carrier/service, they would be stopped	Oct 01 14:53
Diablo-D3	you cant stop google.	Oct 01 14:53
schestowitz	I mean, practically they can, but not in reality	Oct 01 14:53
Diablo-D3	thats an impossibility	Oct 01 14:53
oiaohm	carriers want control of software on phones Diablo-D3	Oct 01 14:53
schestowitz	See what they did with Open Data	Oct 01 14:53
oiaohm	So google forces issue.	Oct 01 14:53
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: but what happens if no one owns a phone anymore	Oct 01 14:53
schestowitz	And the whole book-scanning thing	Oct 01 14:53
Diablo-D3	cell phone carriers in the US are doomed	Oct 01 14:53
Diablo-D3	look how much the telephone companies tried to kill voip	Oct 01 14:54
schestowitz	VoIP is another interesting one	Oct 01 14:54
Diablo-D3	they sued the first major voip carriers and FAILED	Oct 01 14:54
oiaohm	They have not lost there.	Oct 01 14:54
oiaohm	voip carriers still need to connect back in.	Oct 01 14:54
Diablo-D3	they tried to get it labeled as a "phone" so they'd have to pay the government lots of taxes and have to to implement lots of useless expensive shit	Oct 01 14:54
Diablo-D3	and they _lost_	Oct 01 14:54
schestowitz	http://store.dftba.com/music-program	Oct 01 14:54
phIRCe	Title: DFTBA Records — Music Program .::. Size~: 7.3 KB	Oct 01 14:54
schestowitz	Musicians go it alone	Oct 01 14:54
Diablo-D3	I have the internet, schestowitz	Oct 01 14:55
Diablo-D3	why the fuck would I ever pay $75 a month for something thats not unlimited?	Oct 01 14:55
schestowitz	I have MANY internets	Oct 01 14:55
schestowitz	:-p	Oct 01 14:55
Diablo-D3	I refuse to carry a cell phone, I don't fund economic terrorism.	Oct 01 14:55
*desu_ is now known as desu		Oct 01 14:55
Diablo-D3	when google comes out with their 700mhz googlephone, I'll get one	Oct 01 14:55
Diablo-D3	until then, fuck those fuckers	Oct 01 14:55
schestowitz	Let's keep language clean	Oct 01 14:56
schestowitz	OK?	Oct 01 14:56
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-10363663-245.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Oct 01 14:56
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oiaohm	Diablo-D3: getting true unlimited here does not happen.	Oct 01 14:57
oiaohm	All of the ones here have shaping at some point.	Oct 01 14:57
schestowitz	"Eric Goldman alerts us to the news that Jack Thompson is now suing Facebook because some people on Facebook have said some mean stuff about him. "	Oct 01 14:57
schestowitz	http://techdirt.com/articles/20090930/1418206376.shtml	Oct 01 14:57
phIRCe	Title: Even After Being Disbarred, Jack Thompson Can File Misguided Mistargeted Lawsuits \| Techdirt .::. Size~: 52.37 KB	Oct 01 14:57
schestowitz	http://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/2009/09/ideas-originality-and-copyright-coldplay-accused-of-infringement-again/	Oct 01 14:58
phIRCe	Title: Ruling Imagination: Law and Creativity » Blog Archive » Ideas, originality, and copyright. Coldplay accused of infringement again. .::. Size~: 15.33 KB	Oct 01 14:58
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: I define unlimited as "I wont hit it ever"	Oct 01 14:58
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: if some people hit it, thats their problem, especially since I heavily use things	Oct 01 14:58
Diablo-D3	I mean, I HAVE TO PAY FOR MINUTES	Oct 01 14:58
Diablo-D3	WHAT THE HELL IS THAT	Oct 01 14:58
Diablo-D3	thats like paying for bytes, fuck them	Oct 01 14:58
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1556964/alabama-boffins-devise-dos-attack-filter	Oct 01 14:59
schestowitz	They could just curb botnets	Oct 01 14:59
Diablo-D3	they could just ban windows.	Oct 01 15:00
oiaohm	Not going to work schestowitz	Oct 01 15:00
schestowitz	oiaohm: maybe ants	Oct 01 15:00
oiaohm	Spaming the filter and having it audit each invalid could cause a DDOS	Oct 01 15:00
schestowitz	lucid lynxes trawling the network looking for zombies	Oct 01 15:00
oiaohm	Stopping a DDOS is really hard.	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	Prevention	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	Not stopping	Oct 01 15:01
oiaohm	There is no simple magical solution.	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	AUssie wants to ban hijacked PCs from the Net	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	Still proposal stage	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	BUT..	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	It won't help Aussie vs PCs outside AU	Oct 01 15:01
schestowitz	The Net is global	Oct 01 15:01
oiaohm	Not a issue there realy.	Oct 01 15:01
Diablo-D3	yes, but its a step in the right direction	Oct 01 15:02
schestowitz	Linux saves Aussie electrical grid http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1556944/linux-saves-aussie-electricity	Oct 01 15:02
oiaohm	Australia relays normally shut when someone dos	Oct 01 15:02
oiaohm	Reason why lot of business here normally have a few servers in other countries.	Oct 01 15:02
oiaohm	For when the incoming australian links are down so there overseas people can still get stuff.	Oct 01 15:03
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/qt_future/	Oct 01 15:04
phIRCe	Title: Nokia carves out Qt future • The Register .::. Size~: 21.96 KB	Oct 01 15:04
oiaohm	All critical systems should have at least 2 control OS's.	Oct 01 15:05
oiaohm	Just in case 1 OS gets a critical problem the reserve can be used.	Oct 01 15:05
oiaohm	Big thing schestowitz you cannot swap the control systems over that fast unless you basically have a reserve sitting there.	Oct 01 15:06
oiaohm	http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/24193/ Great high level person tracking gear coming stock standard.	Oct 01 15:11
phIRCe	Title: Technology Review: Blogs: arXiv blog: Wireless network modded to see through walls .::. Size~: 58.36 KB	Oct 01 15:11
twitter1	oh yes it will, the success will be hard to ignore. -> schestowitz: It won't help Aussie vs PCs outside AU	Oct 01 15:12
oiaohm	People don't understand in case of major attacks world wide the gate ways between network can close.	Oct 01 15:15
oiaohm	So as long as AU can keep the AU network clean. Australian internal operations can keep going.	Oct 01 15:16
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*twitter1 (n=willhill@97-113-231-152.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 01 15:20
twitter1	:-D	Oct 01 15:21
twitter1	I like this admission the unofficial interview got out of Miguel -> " Photoshop is a C++ application, so Mono will not help there. In fact, pretty much any software written before .NET 1.0 went public in 2002 will have a very larger code base written in C++ or C that will not port."	Oct 01 15:22
oiaohm	Google has servers basically world wide so there users cannot be cut off in case of gate closing as well as load spreeding.	Oct 01 15:22
twitter1	basically, mono won't be useful for getting Windows applications onto gnu/linux.	Oct 01 15:22
oiaohm	Wine is limited use for porting applications like photoshop.	Oct 01 15:24
schestowitz	http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2009/10/01/rowing-second-place/	Oct 01 15:25
phIRCe	Title: schestowitz.com » Blog Archive » Rowing: Second Place .::. Size~: 31.03 KB	Oct 01 15:25
trmanco	is that you?	Oct 01 15:27
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/stego_botnet_control/	Oct 01 15:27
phIRCe	Title: Botnet buries commands in image files • The Register .::. Size~: 21.88 KB	Oct 01 15:27
schestowitz	Now some idiots will say that images are trojans	Oct 01 15:27
smellyhippy	twitter1: [java\|ruby\|COBOL\etc] is interchangable with mono in what you just said	Oct 01 15:27
schestowitz	trmanco: yes, why?	Oct 01 15:27
trmanco	I thought you were skinnier...	Oct 01 15:28
schestowitz	A few months ago. Do I look unrecognisable	Oct 01 15:28
schestowitz	trmanco: no, I'm heavy geek	Oct 01 15:28
trmanco	nah, just different	Oct 01 15:28
smellyhippy	I dont htink Miguel would ever claim that mono is a silver bullet for working with apps written in unrelated languages	Oct 01 15:28
trmanco	I never imagined that you were that fit	Oct 01 15:28
schestowitz	I used to be bin better shape, though	Oct 01 15:29
schestowitz	http://schestowitz.com/Images/images3.htm	Oct 01 15:29
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/30/marten_mickos_joins_benchmark/	Oct 01 15:30
phIRCe	Title: Ex-MySQL chief joins entrepreneur foster home • The Register .::. Size~: 21.64 KB	Oct 01 15:30
schestowitz	Last week I did 108 situps in 2 minutes. It gave me 1st place.	Oct 01 15:31
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/us_lawmakers_distracted_driving_summit/	Oct 01 15:31
phIRCe	Title: OMG US states to ban txting + driving • The Register .::. Size~: 24.5 KB	Oct 01 15:32
schestowitz	BUT...	Oct 01 15:32
trmanco	what are situps?	Oct 01 15:32
schestowitz	They allow people to talk in the car and do other things. Just not phone. And hand-free accessories have people mess about with panels and stuff	Oct 01 15:32
schestowitz	THey should ban many activisties while driving	Oct 01 15:32
schestowitz	trmanco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdominal_exercise	Oct 01 15:33
phIRCe	Title: Abdominal exercise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 39.84 KB	Oct 01 15:33
trmanco	you you and roids? :-P	Oct 01 15:33
trmanco	were*	Oct 01 15:33
trmanco	oh those things are situps	Oct 01 15:33
trmanco	I do pushups	Oct 01 15:33
JPerlow	doesnt look like I missed much last night	Oct 01 15:34
schestowitz	Another MS product has just died. RIP. http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/09/microsoft_nixes_recite_app.html?ana=from_rss	Oct 01 15:34
trmanco	30 a day	Oct 01 15:34
phIRCe	Title: Microsoft nixes Recite app .::. Size~: 43 KB	Oct 01 15:34
schestowitz	trmanco: no, never.	Oct 01 15:34
trmanco	in the morning	Oct 01 15:34
trmanco	how long have you been working out?	Oct 01 15:34
schestowitz	Since 14	Oct 01 15:34
trmanco	wow	Oct 01 15:34
schestowitz	http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2009/09/paul_allen_back_in_shape.html?ana=from_rss	Oct 01 15:35
phIRCe	Title: Paul Allen's back in shape .::. Size~: 44.02 KB	Oct 01 15:36
smellyhippy	schestowitz: ever rowed against northwich?	Oct 01 15:36
schestowitz	No.	Oct 01 15:36
schestowitz	I never did it professionally. I was close though.	Oct 01 15:36
smellyhippy	ahhhhh alot of my family are over there and are part of the rowing club	Oct 01 15:36
smellyhippy	one of my cusins was trainging for a new olympic water sport but unfortunatly damaged his shoulder :(	Oct 01 15:36
schestowitz	JPerlow: http://mono-nono.com/2009/10/01/groklaw-on-miguel/	Oct 01 15:37
twitter1	heh, troll juice. the others are older, work and most are free software with useful applications that can or have been ported -> smellyhippy: twitter1: [java\|ruby\|COBOL\etc] is interchangable with mono in what you just said	Oct 01 15:37
schestowitz	You're sort of flamed there	Oct 01 15:37
phIRCe	Title: Groklaw on Miguel « mono-nono .::. Size~: 43.22 KB	Oct 01 15:37
smellyhippy	I used to go kayaking recreationally :) ... need to get back into it	Oct 01 15:37
schestowitz	It can be a time-consuming and expensive sport	Oct 01 15:37
schestowitz	Recently I went to classes where I can meet more people	Oct 01 15:37
schestowitz	Aerobics too... good for weight loss	Oct 01 15:38
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smellyhippy	twitter1: troll juice? why? being older just means thye have a date that goes firther back ... that date is arbitary, as for working .net is extreamly useable and popular and as for being free ... thats subjective as to wether it's always a good thing	Oct 01 15:38
schestowitz	Jo Shields: "Get the feeling you’ve been Glennbecked?"	Oct 01 15:38
schestowitz	What's with that Glenn Beck reference they keep repeating?	Oct 01 15:38
smellyhippy	I have real backing arguements and I'm speaking on my opinion that I belive rather than to bait you	Oct 01 15:38
twitter1	.NET is a turd, performance wise, and it's not free software.	Oct 01 15:39
zents	if photoshop is in C it can allready be ported to linux, .net is not stopping it.	Oct 01 15:39
smellyhippy	it's approx 20% slower than c++ but for the most part that doesnt matter at all	Oct 01 15:39
smellyhippy	in some places it faster than c++	Oct 01 15:39
smellyhippy	compared to java on windows its faster	Oct 01 15:39
benJIman	Depends what you're doing.	Oct 01 15:40
smellyhippy	indeed	Oct 01 15:40
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&cf=all&ncl=dOMzw2RlMxRcUzMxIhtnsdAQZUvQM	Oct 01 15:40
smellyhippy	for most business apps it's not a problem	Oct 01 15:40
phIRCe	Title: Microsoft's App Marketplace on Oct. 6 - Google News .::. Size~: 53.67 KB	Oct 01 15:40
JPerlow	mono-nono?	Oct 01 15:40
JPerlow	good grief.	Oct 01 15:40
benJIman	For long running enterprise apps hotspot has some advantages.	Oct 01 15:40
smellyhippy	java and .net dominate the development job market in the uK and .net is ahead of java	Oct 01 15:40
schestowitz	JPerlow: yes, why?	Oct 01 15:40
JPerlow	I love the blog header graphic	Oct 01 15:40
JPerlow	a site dedicated to hating mono?	Oct 01 15:41
benJIman	smellyhippy: Still more java jobs than .net in UK, I've been job hunting recently.	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	Not hating	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	Educating	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	See? It's not hard	Oct 01 15:41
twitter1	images from Iron Man are so much more professional.	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	The word "hate" again	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	I keep seeing it	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	I was told by a friend not to allow people to shift that discussion to that area of Taliban\|Hater\|Terrorist	Oct 01 15:41
twitter1	Leave him some comments, JPerlow.	Oct 01 15:41
schestowitz	You like painting us all "black"	Oct 01 15:42
smellyhippy	I admit it's only a single source and fair from perfect but: http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/	Oct 01 15:42
JPerlow	I like?	Oct 01 15:42
JPerlow	who is "us"	Oct 01 15:42
twitter1	RMS for one?	Oct 01 15:42
JPerlow	RMS is a lunatic.	Oct 01 15:42
twitter1	jaw drops	Oct 01 15:42
schestowitz	http://www.duniyalive.com/?p=65991	Oct 01 15:43
phIRCe	Title: Microsoft Recite won’t see the New Year! \| Duniyalive.com .::. Size~: 45.37 KB	Oct 01 15:43
schestowitz	JPerlow: Hehe	Oct 01 15:43
schestowitz	Define lunnatic	Oct 01 15:43
schestowitz	*lunatic	Oct 01 15:43
schestowitz	You just love taking average of all people's traits and then label people who are outside this average	Oct 01 15:44
schestowitz	The 'abnormal' can be called many things	Oct 01 15:44
schestowitz	It's the peer-based pressure for forcing people to comply	Oct 01 15:44
schestowitz	I thought JPerlow would be above all that	Oct 01 15:44
schestowitz	Sad.	Oct 01 15:44
JPerlow	I haven't had my coffee yet.	Oct 01 15:44
schestowitz	Microsoft Pulls the Plug on Recite for Windows Mobile http://jkontherun.com/2009/09/30/microsoft-pulls-the-plug-on-recite-for-windows-mobile/	Oct 01 15:45
phIRCe	Title: Microsoft Pulls the Plug on Recite for Windows Mobile .::. Size~: 54.49 KB	Oct 01 15:45
smellyhippy	well RMS can be classified as an extreamist ... although it's down to your opinion if thats a good thing or bad	Oct 01 15:45
schestowitz	phIRCe: coffee would stimulate you even _more_ :-	Oct 01 15:45
schestowitz	extremist is a word reserved for stereotypes	Oct 01 15:45
schestowitz	You play with linguistics again	Oct 01 15:45
schestowitz	The politicians are good at it :-D	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Euphemisms and stuff	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Department of Defence as the new name for department of war	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Many other countries do the same	Oct 01 15:46
smellyhippy	it's a legitimate usage ... the extream in this case are ONLY closed software or ONLY open ... there is a wide range of ground in the middle	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Even IDF	Oct 01 15:46
smellyhippy	stallman is at the extream of one end	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Where d stands for 'Defence'	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Euphemisms :-) GOtta love them	Oct 01 15:46
smellyhippy	again ... it's down to your opinion if that extermism is good bad or nutral	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	American invades iraq to DEFEND values	Oct 01 15:46
schestowitz	Invade -> defends	Oct 01 15:47
schestowitz	Expand->make room	Oct 01 15:47
oiaohm	smellyhippy: these days I use all Open.	Oct 01 15:47
oiaohm	Mostly because it suits my work load.	Oct 01 15:47
zents	Are you not also using Euphemisms Roy ?	Oct 01 15:47
schestowitz	Cleanse/exterminate -> eliminate troublemakers	Oct 01 15:47
schestowitz	Or purifying DNA, whatever..	Oct 01 15:47
schestowitz	CHina killed 60ml	Oct 01 15:47
smellyhippy	oiaohm: i use mostly closed ... but i pic kthe tool that i like best without paying attention to it's licensing	Oct 01 15:47
*twitter1 reads JPerlow's idiotic article on RMS.		Oct 01 15:48
smellyhippy	except for things covered by GPL ... I exclude them from my development usage	Oct 01 15:48
schestowitz	zents: show where	Oct 01 15:48
smellyhippy	oiaohm: indeed ... (with regards to fitting the workload)	Oct 01 15:48
schestowitz	zents: are you mutex?	Oct 01 15:48
oiaohm	GPL does not have to be excluded smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:48
oiaohm	There are ways for closed to interact with GPL without issues.	Oct 01 15:48
smellyhippy	LGPL doesnt have to be excluded but muts be treated with care	Oct 01 15:48
smellyhippy	however using GPL source with my source is worrsome	Oct 01 15:49
oiaohm	Only if you link them.	Oct 01 15:49
smellyhippy	oiaohm: there are ways ... but they require care and thought ... it's much easier to simply avoid it	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	You're so predictable mutex	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	roy@roy:~$ whois 121.218.182.99	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	% [whois.apnic.net node-1]	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	% Whois data copyright terms http://www.apnic.net/db/dbcopyright.html	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	inetnum: 121.208.0.0 - 121.223.255.255	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz	netname: TELSTRAINTERNET45-AU	Oct 01 15:49
oiaohm	Like calling GPL applications to perform task don't cause problems smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:49
schestowitz sets ban on zents!@*		Oct 01 15:49
*schestowitz has kicked zents from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)		Oct 01 15:49
phIRCe	Title: APNIC - APNIC Whois Database Acceptable Use Agreement .::. Size~: 6.29 KB	Oct 01 15:49
twitter1	hmmmm. What exactly is it that non free software can do that free software can't, besides "interoperate" -> the reality is that a lot of enterprises and people are like me have to and want to use both.	Oct 01 15:50
smellyhippy	oiaohm: yeah but in general we dont call other apps in the apps we develop, we either call libaries or use source code	Oct 01 15:50
oiaohm	Some gpl tools are great at what they do smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:50
smellyhippy	and we work almost exclusivly with C#	Oct 01 15:50
smellyhippy	oiaohm: I dont dispute that :)	Oct 01 15:50
twitter1	that would go a long way to explaining the "need" for non free software, JPerlow.	Oct 01 15:50
oiaohm	C# I find problem causer.	Oct 01 15:51
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smellyhippy	c# is my problem solver :)	Oct 01 15:51
oiaohm	Note I work cross platform I a better off to develop C++ with QT than go C#	Oct 01 15:51
smellyhippy	works lovely on windows, sql server and VIsual Studio is a fantastic IDE	Oct 01 15:51
oiaohm	kdevelop	Oct 01 15:51
smellyhippy	oiaohm: yeah if I was working on cross platform apps I'd have to re-evaluate my dev stack	Oct 01 15:51
oiaohm	Also a really nice IDE	Oct 01 15:52
oiaohm	Basically I don't have any advantages by using Visual studio	Oct 01 15:52
smellyhippy	I have loads :D	Oct 01 15:52
smellyhippy	no other C# IDE is close featurewise	Oct 01 15:52
oiaohm	C++ kdevelop	Oct 01 15:53
smellyhippy	for c#?	Oct 01 15:53
oiaohm	Feature wise kinda equal.	Oct 01 15:53
oiaohm	QT covers everything the .net runtime does.	Oct 01 15:53
oiaohm	And more.	Oct 01 15:53
smellyhippy	the major advantage of .net is the productivty gains	Oct 01 15:53
oiaohm	Not really.	Oct 01 15:54
smellyhippy	in your opinion ;)	Oct 01 15:54
smellyhippy	not in many others ;)	Oct 01 15:54
oiaohm	Autocompleting scripts in kdevelop.	Oct 01 15:54
twitter1	.NET is buggy crap.	Oct 01 15:54
smellyhippy	this isnt just with the IDE	Oct 01 15:54
twitter1	there is not productivity gain in applications that don't work	Oct 01 15:54
oiaohm	Really it is.	Oct 01 15:54
smellyhippy	twitter1: how long have you been using it? which version? what bugs?	Oct 01 15:54
oiaohm	I can type code that looks like C# into kdevelop but I am coding C++	Oct 01 15:54
oiaohm	ie kdevelop is filling in the blanks.	Oct 01 15:55
twitter1	I've been using Windows at work for the last six months. Mine is a user's perspective	Oct 01 15:55
smellyhippy	twitter1: because as someone who reports bugs deep in the framework I havent seen you on connect before and I dont htink it's very buggy	Oct 01 15:55
twitter1	.NET sucks balls, please keep it to yourself	Oct 01 15:55
smellyhippy	lol no thanks ;) I'll keep selling apps using it to clients specificly requesting both it and the MS stack :)	Oct 01 15:55
smellyhippy	but thanks for the adivce ;)	Oct 01 15:55
oiaohm	So you don't do phone versions of apps.	Oct 01 15:56
schestowitz	I use the kdevelop editor (kate) for everything	Oct 01 15:56
smellyhippy	oiaohm: nope	Oct 01 15:56
oiaohm	QT is a really nice framework.	Oct 01 15:56
schestowitz	oiaohm: news: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/qt_future/	Oct 01 15:56
oiaohm	Code once minorally alter to take a desktop app to phone.	Oct 01 15:56
smellyhippy	we do mapping apps generally ... using bing maps.virtual earth	Oct 01 15:56
phIRCe	Title: Nokia carves out Qt future • The Register .::. Size~: 22.09 KB	Oct 01 15:56
twitter1	eh, that's what I thought. the .NET salesman is really a smelly hippy	Oct 01 15:56
schestowitz	Nokia wanted SDKs and stuff	Oct 01 15:56
twitter1	is there a reason that troll has not been booted?	Oct 01 15:56
smellyhippy	previously I'#ve done documenet management systems, EPOS, ecommerce sites	Oct 01 15:56
*twitter1 ignores smellyhippy troll		Oct 01 15:57
oiaohm	So you don't have marble smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:57
smellyhippy	schestowitz: twitter1 is quite the troll huh? :/	Oct 01 15:57
schestowitz	twitter1: I just ignore them	Oct 01 15:57
smellyhippy	oiaohm: marble?	Oct 01 15:57
schestowitz	A person who comes here with the name smellyhippy is not interested in a genuine respectful debate	Oct 01 15:57
twitter1	I was trying to not ignore people. it does not work.	Oct 01 15:57
oiaohm	http://edu.kde.org/marble/ << world map local smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:57
phIRCe	Title: The KDE Education Project - Marble .::. Size~: 13.75 KB	Oct 01 15:57
schestowitz	AFAICT, he's here to defend the Mono zone/territory	Oct 01 15:57
smellyhippy	twitter1: I've backed my arguements with info and experience ... you have just spouted insults and then balked at details when called out on them	Oct 01 15:57
smellyhippy	schestowitz: not true	Oct 01 15:58
schestowitz	It says a lot about that crowd	Oct 01 15:58
oiaohm	No network traffic can intergrate into apps and overlap what ever you like smellyhippy	Oct 01 15:58
smellyhippy	this is my main nick and i've been on here years	Oct 01 15:58
twitter1	well he just admitted he's here to sell .NET	Oct 01 15:58
smellyhippy	you can check with others if you dont belive me :)	Oct 01 15:58
schestowitz	They dislike RMS and desrive FS as smelly hippies	Oct 01 15:58
schestowitz	*describe	Oct 01 15:58
twitter1	JPerlow never did answer my questions.	Oct 01 15:58
oiaohm	Basically smellyhippy you don't have the frameworks I have at my finger tips.	Oct 01 15:58
schestowitz	I'm not a smelly hippy AFAIK	Oct 01 15:58
twitter1	the trolls just got busy.	Oct 01 15:58
smellyhippy	oiaohm: oooo interesting	Oct 01 15:58
schestowitz	Peter Brown is not smelly hippy	Oct 01 15:58
twitter1	Bill Gates was reputed to be very smelly.	Oct 01 15:58
oiaohm	Qt allows me to extend all the way up threw kde for parts.	Oct 01 15:59
schestowitz	twitter1: BG and BO are similar acronyms	Oct 01 15:59
oiaohm	Basically .net runtime is tiny compared to the runtime I have access to.	Oct 01 15:59
schestowitz	oiaohm: I like how Qt looks	Oct 01 15:59
schestowitz	I didn't develop much in it	Oct 01 15:59
schestowitz	Just hacked on existing Qt code	Oct 01 15:59
schestowitz	I developed in GTK though. Tedious without front ends	Oct 01 16:00
schestowitz	I found glade after I had done all the heavy lifting manually	Oct 01 16:00
twitter1	Ah ha. Now I understand. -> Jason Perlow is a technologist with over two decades of experience integrating large heterogeneous multi-vendor computing environments in Fortune 500 companies.	Oct 01 16:00
schestowitz	To align GUI stuff I'd have to recompile and rerun from the CLI	Oct 01 16:00
*twitter1 used to work for a Fortune 100 company and thought that lunatics were in charge.		Oct 01 16:01
schestowitz	twitter1: JPerlow, what is your take on the Novell deal?	Oct 01 16:01
twitter1	now, I see that they were.	Oct 01 16:01
schestowitz	That Fortune BS is redundant	Oct 01 16:01
schestowitz	These companies are large, they employ many people	Oct 01 16:02
schestowitz	It means too little except the label	Oct 01 16:02
schestowitz	Heck, they also have plumbers in "Fortune 500" (kneels)companies... not that there's something wrong with the job	Oct 01 16:02
twitter1	To Fortune it means "large" and "pays our bills through advertising"	Oct 01 16:03
twitter1	bbl	Oct 01 16:03
schestowitz	The larger they are, the more tyrannical they get	Oct 01 16:03
twitter1	monopolies are like that	Oct 01 16:03
schestowitz	The larger they are, the more they abuse the people at the bottom in terms of wages and threats (blackmail) of offshoring	Oct 01 16:03
twitter1	when your industry only has two or three cooperating "competitors" your specialty is being screwed over all the time.	Oct 01 16:04
schestowitz	BoD cabal and their investors (related to BoD or /IN/ it) need to improve margins	Oct 01 16:04
*twitter2 has quit ("Leaving.")		Oct 01 16:04
schestowitz	JPerlow: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-aixhpvirtualization/?ca=dgr-lnxw97IBMvsHP-Virtdth-A&S_TACT=105AGY83&S_CMP=grlnxw97	Oct 01 16:05
phIRCe	Title: IBM and HP virtualization .::. Size~: 61.81 KB	Oct 01 16:05
schestowitz	Why does IBM post comparison as articles? It's bound to be biased.	Oct 01 16:05
oiaohm	all ways love the .net developer claiming they can develop faster. I love ask them to do something stupid like put a mars globe in a application. Simple with the frameworks I use.	Oct 01 16:05
oiaohm	Funny thing is schestowitz more IBM comparisions are bias against IBM.	Oct 01 16:06
oiaohm	IBM takes the point of view better to find the best and provide the best to customers they have support contracts for than provide there own if it is not the best.	Oct 01 16:09
oiaohm	and lose the support contract.	Oct 01 16:09
schestowitz	http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/03/14/fee-fight-involving-microsoft-breaks-out-in-wisconsin/	Oct 01 16:10
phIRCe	Title: Human Greed Has No Bounds, Says MSFT in Fee Dispute - Law Blog - WSJ .::. Size~: 75.37 KB	Oct 01 16:10
schestowitz	oiaohm: maybe	Oct 01 16:11
schestowitz	I wonder if they did dirty benchmarks before the 80s	Oct 01 16:11
schestowitz	IBM was not popular in hacker culture	Oct 01 16:11
oiaohm	IBM was not helpful to hacker culture	Oct 01 16:12
schestowitz	Microsoft tried to INNOVA~1 Linux: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Barrelfish-Multikernel-Operating-System-out-of-Zurich	Oct 01 16:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft tries to INNOVA~1 Linux: http://ping.fm/W642c Confirmation that Windows is behind?		Oct 01 16:13
schestowitz	http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=126130	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	I'm not sure who Jason Perlow is, but I "googled" him and	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	he seems to be that guy who used to, or still does, write	Oct 01 16:14
phIRCe	Title: Groklaw - On Mono, Miguel, Stallman and Fusion with Microsoft .::. Size~: 200.83 KB	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	a lot of commentary for ZD pubs. Back when I use to read	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	ZD stuff I pegged him as a M$ shill. I was never impressed	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	with him and never gave much him thought except that he must	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	have got a lot of money from someone to be able to buy all	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	that always-new hardware he kept raving about and how well	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	it ran this or that.	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	--unquote	Oct 01 16:14
schestowitz	http://www.h-online.com/open/SSL-trick-certificate-published--/news/114361	Oct 01 16:17
trmanco	http://amarok.kde.org/en/releases/2.2	Oct 01 16:19
phIRCe	Title: Amarok 2.2 "Sunjammer" released \| Amarok .::. Size~: 15.13 KB	Oct 01 16:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: Linux on every PC? http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Dell-Latitude-Z-with-Latitude-ON/?kc=rss	Oct 01 16:21
phIRCe	Title: Dell ships first laptop with Linux fast-boot tech - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 67.22 KB	Oct 01 16:21
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oiaohm	That is the way we are going schestowitz	Oct 01 16:21
schestowitz	zemlin spoke about it	Oct 01 16:21
oiaohm	Basically linux as the spare wheel when windows fails at first is a good way into the market.	Oct 01 16:22
oiaohm	I really need 2 more things.	Oct 01 16:22
oiaohm	kontact for windows	Oct 01 16:22
oiaohm	and a stable samba ads server.	Oct 01 16:22
schestowitz	My repo still has older amarok	Oct 01 16:22
schestowitz	I quite like amarok2	Oct 01 16:22
schestowitz	More so than 1.4.x	Oct 01 16:22
oiaohm	Once I get them I will be able to build a really great central system.	Oct 01 16:22
schestowitz	It's lighter, simpler, more featureful	Oct 01 16:23
oiaohm	Ie network boot linux with user logins.	Oct 01 16:23
oiaohm	That can access there emails and do work when a PC dies.	Oct 01 16:23
JPerlow	Sorry, was on a few conf calls. Did somebody ask me something?	Oct 01 16:23
oiaohm	And allow me to repair machine in location while they are using ti.	Oct 01 16:23
schestowitz	http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mythbuntu	Oct 01 16:25
schestowitz	Mythbuntu 9.10-beta	Oct 01 16:25
phIRCe	Title: DistroWatch.com: Mythbuntu .::. Size~: 48.95 KB	Oct 01 16:25
schestowitz	Is this maintained by Canonical, jono ?	Oct 01 16:25
jono	schestowitz, no	Oct 01 16:25
jono	it is a community project	Oct 01 16:25
schestowitz	I ask because of the trademarks	Oct 01 16:25
schestowitz	I'm not against trademarks BTW	Oct 01 16:26
schestowitz	Just misuse of them	Oct 01 16:26
jono	it is approved by our trademark team	Oct 01 16:26
schestowitz	Like owning English words	Oct 01 16:26
schestowitz	Or substrings	Oct 01 16:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] I wonder if a party called "Complete Bastards" would win voters seeking honesty in politicians?		Oct 01 16:27
oiaohm	mythbuntu is part of the standard ubuntu supply tree.	Oct 01 16:27
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb++	Oct 01 16:27
oiaohm	So ubuntu leaves them alone schestowitz	Oct 01 16:27
schestowitz	eeebuntu was too much	Oct 01 16:27
ThistleWeb	Diablo-D3: is that part of an equation?	Oct 01 16:27
ThistleWeb	lol	Oct 01 16:27
schestowitz	So substrings are hit	Oct 01 16:27
Diablo-D3	its karma	Oct 01 16:27
schestowitz	It become Easy Peasy	Oct 01 16:27
Diablo-D3	ARGH EASY PEASY	Oct 01 16:28
schestowitz	It reminds me of this guy at the gym who would yell "easy peasy" when benchpressing	Oct 01 16:28
oiaohm	eeebuntu was using bits outside main tree.	Oct 01 16:29
schestowitz	So the name is tainted in my mind	Oct 01 16:29
oiaohm	Basically ubuntu name must be only using bits from the main repos.	Oct 01 16:29
Diablo-D3	I hate easy peasy	Oct 01 16:29
Diablo-D3	why the fuck cant someone just make a fucking netbook distro that doesnt suck dick	Oct 01 16:29
*oiaohm looks at Diablo-D3 and wonders when he is going to try.		Oct 01 16:30
schestowitz	http://distrowatch.com/chakra	Oct 01 16:30
phIRCe	Title: DistroWatch.com: Chakra .::. Size~: 41.72 KB	Oct 01 16:30
schestowitz	Look what KDE4 is doing for many obscure distros	Oct 01 16:30
schestowitz	They look (and hopefully work) fantastically	Oct 01 16:30
schestowitz	Diablo-D3's hatred of kde4 withstanding	Oct 01 16:31
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)		Oct 01 16:33
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: except kde is wrong	Oct 01 16:33
Diablo-D3	kde is for a computer	Oct 01 16:33
Diablo-D3	its not for "iphones" "netbooks" or "10 foot interfaces"	Oct 01 16:34
Diablo-D3	which all, ultimately, require very similar designs	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	Nope	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	KDE4 is now for subnotebooks too	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	They stilll improve it	Oct 01 16:34
Diablo-D3	I think you misunderstood	Oct 01 16:34
Diablo-D3	that UI paradigm is completely wrong for these devices	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	It's like a lighter variant, still with the all the goodness of Air	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: 600x800px	Oct 01 16:34
Diablo-D3	yes, and someday you'll get a clue schestowitz	Oct 01 16:34
schestowitz	Fine for folderview	Oct 01 16:34
Diablo-D3	but today isnt that day	Oct 01 16:35
schestowitz	Konq is not wasting much space at the top	Oct 01 16:35
schestowitz	kde was never aimed for phones	Oct 01 16:35
schestowitz	Nokia changes this, with qt in maemo	Oct 01 16:35
ThistleWeb	the only bajor beef I have with space wasting on kde is the huge panel, which can be sjrunk obviously	Oct 01 16:35
ThistleWeb	on the other nad, if you add both gnome panels together, they're about the same, just split top and bottom	Oct 01 16:36
schestowitz	Huge?	Oct 01 16:36
ThistleWeb	double line	Oct 01 16:36
schestowitz	It's like 25px high by default in 4.3	Oct 01 16:36
ThistleWeb	ahh. I know Mint KDE had a "normal" sized panel	Oct 01 16:36
ThistleWeb	didnt know that was the new kde line	Oct 01 16:37
ThistleWeb	25px is what I'd class as normal, it's the same size as I use	Oct 01 16:37
ThistleWeb	it's all personal prefs though	Oct 01 16:38
*schestowitz adjusts the size of the panel again to make it 2-line		Oct 01 16:39
ThistleWeb	lol, traditionalist huh?	Oct 01 16:39
schestowitz	It scales linearly, which is nice	Oct 01 16:39
schestowitz	I never mess about much	Oct 01 16:40
schestowitz	I did a lot in 3.1	Oct 01 16:40
schestowitz	But there's no point to it anymore	Oct 01 16:40
schestowitz	http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/10/nice_use_of_div.html	Oct 01 16:40
phIRCe	Title: Schneier on Security: Nice Use of Diversion During a Robbery .::. Size~: 24.61 KB	Oct 01 16:40
ThistleWeb	I do have a favoured layout to get it set into after install, but beyond that I don't change it too much	Oct 01 16:41
schestowitz	Here is goes again: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=25219	Oct 01 16:41
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: I can't get wallpapers to stretch to screens	Oct 01 16:42
schestowitz	Plasma was made to treat screens as separate desktops	Oct 01 16:42
schestowitz	Not totally separate, just the background part	Oct 01 16:42
ThistleWeb	that reminds me of something kde has had like forever, which I'd love to see the others have......the ability to have different wallpapers in your virtual desktops	Oct 01 16:43
ThistleWeb	seeing a different wallpaper makes it easy at a glance to see which one you're on	Oct 01 16:44
schestowitz	I;ve just changed it so that one desktop has containment/foler view and another a plasmoid withfolderview	Oct 01 16:44
schestowitz	It's weird going back to icons on desktops	Oct 01 16:44
schestowitz	KDE got it right	Oct 01 16:45
schestowitz	It needs to be just a widgets	Oct 01 16:45
ThistleWeb	my desktop has been free of icons for so long now	Oct 01 16:45
trmanco	kde 4.3.2 should be released today I think	Oct 01 16:45
schestowitz	It's a bad inheritance from Win3 GUI and whoever it ripped off from	Oct 01 16:45
trmanco	and schestowitz amarok 2.2 is coming to Karmic	Oct 01 16:45
schestowitz	OK, so system update will add it	Oct 01 16:45
schestowitz	I had a weird dream last night that I had 3 monitors connected	Oct 01 16:46
ThistleWeb	I shudder at some windows desktops I see, with a screen fulla icons, and a All Programs menu that stretches 3 or 4 columns wide with no srting at all	Oct 01 16:46
ThistleWeb	that's the invisible one they use to spy on you	Oct 01 16:46
schestowitz	I can't do screencasts properly that are wider than some value	Oct 01 16:47
schestowitz	I can have focus follow mouse b/w desktops though	Oct 01 16:47
schestowitz	There's a Dutch guy who makes good screencasts for KDE	Oct 01 16:47
schestowitz	Can't recall his name exactly.	Oct 01 16:47
schestowitz	ThistleWeb: it's risky having icons on desktp	Oct 01 16:48
schestowitz	Too much room for error	Oct 01 16:48
schestowitz	You can mistakenly lunch programs or delete items.	Oct 01 16:48
schestowitz	It happened to me when I mis-focused. It's like one big window (kdesktop) at the back of all your real windows	Oct 01 16:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sebinaj: Ten Reasons Why You Should Boycott Skype http://bit.ly/vQHtp		Oct 01 16:49
phIRCe	Title: Freedom Blog » Blog Archive » Ten Reasons Why You Should Boycott Skype .::. Size~: 54.51 KB	Oct 01 16:49
ThistleWeb	icons are fine, but the whole point of them being "shortcuts" is that it's supposed to save time. When you waste time scanning through them trying to find it on a menu or a flood of other icons, it kinda defeats the purpose	Oct 01 16:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] You'd imagine Palm would "get it" after it's hassle with the Pre & iTunes, but apparently not. http://tinyurl.com/yd3vgxw		Oct 01 16:51
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schestowitz	http://www.linuxlinks.com/article/20090927065836306/UbuntuTips-Booting-Part1.html	Oct 01 16:59
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: fucking ricers.	Oct 01 17:01
Diablo-D3	and at least half of those tips are not recommended	Oct 01 17:01
Diablo-D3	swappiness should _never_ be touched except by people who know the kernel inside out	Oct 01 17:01
Diablo-D3	so tip 3 is wrong	Oct 01 17:01
Diablo-D3	tip 4 doesnt make sense, any controller that can support dma has it automatically turned on	Oct 01 17:02
Diablo-D3	all sata controllers automatically do	Oct 01 17:02
Diablo-D3	tip 5 is out of date, ubuntu's parallel boot system is already slated for a future version of ubuntu	Oct 01 17:02
Diablo-D3	tip 6 is wrong for any modern system	Oct 01 17:03
Diablo-D3	tip 7 is for fucking morons	Oct 01 17:03
Diablo-D3	tip 8 is for fucking morons	Oct 01 17:03
Diablo-D3	tip 1 sounds like bullshit	Oct 01 17:03
Diablo-D3	tip 2 should never be attempted by people who dont undertsand these things	Oct 01 17:03
Diablo-D3	schestowitz: so that article is 100% wrong and/or bullshit	Oct 01 17:04
ThistleWeb	"A slow boot can be very annoying for them especially if they only want to catch up with email or check the latest sporting results, before dashing out the door."	Oct 01 17:04
ThistleWeb	if you didn't know better you'd assume that was Windows	Oct 01 17:05
Diablo-D3	ThistleWeb: yeah no shit	Oct 01 17:05
ThistleWeb	dunno about OSX	Oct 01 17:05
*ThistleWeb never used it		Oct 01 17:05
Diablo-D3	my debian system, which I have posgresql, zfs, and cherokee among other things start on boot, takes about 40-45 seconds to get to gdm	Oct 01 17:05
MinceR	if slow boot bothers them, they might want to try suspending to ram.	Oct 01 17:05
ThistleWeb	but windows boots slow, not only that, but when the desktop comes up, it's still not ready to use	Oct 01 17:06
Diablo-D3	it takes about 10 seconds to start gnome after logging in	Oct 01 17:06
Diablo-D3	it takes less than a minute round trip to get a usable desktop	Oct 01 17:06
ThistleWeb	it still has loads of other stuff like the taskbar etc to kick in	Oct 01 17:06
MinceR	it takes a couple of seconds from opening the lid of my laptop to get to the screen locker password prompt. :>	Oct 01 17:06
trmanco	http://digg.com/software/Amarok_2_2_Sunjammer_released	Oct 01 17:06
phIRCe	Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB	Oct 01 17:07
ThistleWeb	my xfce can right click and open an app as soon as my wallpaper shows	Oct 01 17:07
MinceR	unlocking is instantaneous after typing the password.	Oct 01 17:07
ThistleWeb	and that's on an old pc	Oct 01 17:07
Diablo-D3	it takes me about 10 seconds to unsuspend	Oct 01 17:07
Diablo-D3	and about 30 seconds to unhibernate after the grub prompt	Oct 01 17:08
trmanco	oops	Oct 01 17:08
schestowitz	http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/09/12/Girl-faces-deportation-over-vaccine/UPI-85741252754398/	Oct 01 17:09
phIRCe	Title: Girl faces deportation over vaccine - UPI.com .::. Size~: 73.39 KB	Oct 01 17:09
MinceR	suspending to ram takes about 4 seconds	Oct 01 17:09
trmanco	kde 4.3.2 will actually be released by the 6th of this month	Oct 01 17:09
schestowitz	Salt Lake Tribune is dead. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=8048316	Oct 01 17:12
phIRCe	Title: ksl.com - Publisher: Salt Lake Tribune to start charging fees to online readers .::. Size~: 56.46 KB	Oct 01 17:12
schestowitz	http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2009/09/30/overdraft-protection-practices-draw-ire-legislation/	Oct 01 17:15
phIRCe	Title: Overdraft protection practices draw ire, legislation - Homeland Stupidity .::. Size~: 40.22 KB	Oct 01 17:15
schestowitz	http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/01/bank-of-america-dema.html	Oct 01 17:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 'UK Border Agency's pseudoscientific "race-detection" DNA/isotope tests has scientific experts "horrified"' - http://ping.fm/qDHiS		Oct 01 17:19
*Disconnected ().		Oct 01 17:30
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fewa	what hype creates http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091001092351AA4G1Uo	Oct 01 16:45
phIRCe	Title: Google wave question! I just got invited by someone? - Yahoo! Answers .::. Size~: 37.92 KB	Oct 01 16:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @c4fcm: A Copyright and Creative Commons Primer for Freelancers http://bit.ly/2QzExF		Oct 01 16:46
phIRCe	Title: A Copyright and Creative Commons Primer - Freelancing - Lifehacker .::. Size~: 57.1 KB	Oct 01 16:46
fewa	--A case study	Oct 01 16:46
*Guest17459 is now known as Balrog		Oct 01 16:46
schestowitz	anthony.freenode.net fell. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/inmate_hacker/	Oct 01 16:46
phIRCe	Title: Inmate hacker locks down jail computers • The Register .::. Size~: 22.72 KB	Oct 01 16:46
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Oct 1 17:30:33 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovell		Oct 01 17:30
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]		Oct 01 17:30
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009		Oct 01 17:30
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel		Oct 01 17:30
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DaemonFC	still healing	Oct 01 17:36
DaemonFC	sorry to disappoint those wishing death on me :)	Oct 01 17:37
DaemonFC	I can't drive my car or be home alone so I'm staying with my mom and brother	Oct 01 17:38
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sebsebseb	hi	Oct 01 17:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @GoogleDiscovery Procurando pelo Google Wave? Sortearemos 8 convites para todos que derem RT nesse tweet! E ai, você quer? =)		Oct 01 17:41
trmanco	I have no luck	Oct 01 17:44
trmanco	...	Oct 01 17:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] I think someone sent me a Google Wave invite...		Oct 01 17:48
*Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connect		Oct 01 17:49
*#boycottnovell :[freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup		Oct 01 17:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] My invitation got lost :-P		Oct 01 17:55
trmanco	Damn, cmon Google :\|	Oct 01 17:57
schestowitz	Mozilla denies it will 'ribbonize' Firefox http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9138653/Mozilla_denies_it_will_ribbonize_Firefox	Oct 01 18:06
phIRCe	Title: Mozilla denies it will 'ribbonize' Firefox .::. Size~: 129.63 KB	Oct 01 18:06
schestowitz	http://code.google.com/p/gbitly-applet/	Oct 01 18:21
schestowitz	Is Wave 'open' like Android?	Oct 01 18:21
schestowitz	Or like Chrome (also 'open')?	Oct 01 18:22
fewa	Both distributed as propritary apps, under propritary licences	Oct 01 18:24
fewa	lol re gbitly	Oct 01 18:24
fewa	choqoK support open/free services like utu.us	Oct 01 18:25
fewa	2tu.us	Oct 01 18:26
schestowitz	bbl	Oct 01 18:29
Omar87	Hi all	Oct 01 18:36
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_goblin	sorry Omar was afk...hi there!	Oct 01 19:03
trmanco	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/microsoft_crypto_ssl_bug/	Oct 01 19:05
phIRCe	Title: SSL spoof bug still haunts IE, Safari, Chrome • The Register .::. Size~: 25.92 KB	Oct 01 19:05
trmanco	"Thanks to Microsoft"	Oct 01 19:05
Omar87	_goblin: Hey!	Oct 01 19:06
_goblin	Ive been distracted with Quake live.........my bad...	Oct 01 19:16
Omar87	_goblin: Quake live?	Oct 01 19:20
_goblin	yeah	Oct 01 19:26
_goblin	there I go again...Im not even a gamer by nature and I can't resist!	Oct 01 19:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #Apple likes to play smothering parent figure with #iPhone Parent with poison pill looming over every 3rd party app http://ur1.ca/crtw #DRM		Oct 01 19:34
phIRCe	Title: Developer: Apple Denied Health Care App for Political Reasons \| Epicenter \| Wired.com .::. Size~: 98.17 KB	Oct 01 19:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Unix Porn - Because sharing can inspire others http://tinyurl.com/y97hrob		Oct 01 19:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] According to a user who appears to support Windows 7 on my blog, there is no advantage to Windows 7! http://tinyurl.com/yc3hvww #microsoft		Oct 01 19:42
phIRCe	Title: XP Still no reason for upgrade? Vista users f***ing livid? « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 56.25 KB	Oct 01 19:42
dsfg	Hey boy, I just wanted to congratulate you on your latest gem. With that "Novell Removes GIMP, Adds Proprietary Software" you once again confirmed the "quality" of your "articles". Makes if especially funny if you keep that "Exploring the truth" in the title in mind ....	Oct 01 19:43
_goblin	coming from someone who can't even be bothered to think of a coherent handle (merely a collection of grouped keypresses) I am sure Roy will be suitably upset by your remark......	Oct 01 19:45
_goblin	I'll let him know for you when he returns....he left the chat at 18:30	Oct 01 19:46
dsfg	well, I kinda fail to see how that matters. e.g. it could be an acronym, nevertheless it is completely unrelevant.	Oct 01 19:46
fewa	dsfg, you signed in 5 minutes ago	Oct 01 19:47
dsfg	and?	Oct 01 19:47
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fewa	You obviously didn't even read the article	Oct 01 19:48
fewa	great for you	Oct 01 19:48
fewa	"Adobe Acrobat? Is that really the best you can do? Repeat after me: free as in speech; not free as in beer."	Oct 01 19:49
dsfg	Well, according to the headline he claims that Gimp is removed from SLE which simply isn't true. And if you aren't happy with what _HP_ preloads on his computers then perhaps talk to _HP_ ? I fail to see how Novell is involved there besides it is your favorite target.	Oct 01 19:50
dsfg	s/his/their/	Oct 01 19:51
dsfg	fewa: But you surely are welcome to correct my misunderstanding here ...	Oct 01 19:52
*amarsh04 posted to groklaw.net (and Linuxtoday.com) about Integral Energy: http://www.groklaw.net/comment.php?mode=display&sid=2009093014420419&title=Electricity%20Industry%20-%20using%20virus%20infected%20pc%27s%20running%20MS-Windows%20to%20monitor%20control%20systems&type=article&order=&hideanonymous=0&pid=790843#c791063		Oct 01 19:53
phIRCe	Title: Groklaw - Digging for Truth .::. Size~: 38.7 KB	Oct 01 19:53
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_goblin	fewa: just like was predicted by many, as we approach the release of Vista 7 the trolls and timewasters increase their efforts....over the last few days we've had quite a few new ones havent we?	Oct 01 19:56
fewa	theyll run out of money eventually...	Oct 01 19:57
fewa	they already have ran out of intelligent shills	Oct 01 19:57
_goblin	fewa: Ive engaged a great one on my blog who (like most) did not think through their argument before starting an attack....they are trying to imply there is no advantages between high/low level languages....	Oct 01 19:57
_goblin	fewa: and dont appear to see operational speed as an advantage.......	Oct 01 19:58
dsfg	funny enough I seem to be the "troll & timewaster" while making stuff up that obviously isn't true and bending the reality so it fits in your picture is fine. Great attitude you guys have here ..... I'm still happy to get corrected. Please point out where I wasn't saying the truth?	Oct 01 19:58
ThistleWeb	that is a problem for MS when they have to buy friends. Those friends dont do it for free, so they'll stop when the money runs out	Oct 01 19:58
_goblin	dsfg: Did I say you?	Oct 01 19:58
dsfg	_goblin: forgive me if I thought you had me in mind given the context.	Oct 01 19:59
_goblin	dsfg: Please quote where I called you a timewaster...	Oct 01 19:59
_goblin	dsfg: lol...."forgive me" is what the troll on my site has just said.	Oct 01 19:59
dsfg	now you somehow lost me ...	Oct 01 19:59
_goblin	dsfg: Is that the same forgiveness that Ballmer seems to want when you said "we screwed up with Winmob?" Seems like theres alot of asking for forgiveness at the moment...	Oct 01 20:00
_goblin	dsfg: Considered confessional?	Oct 01 20:00
_goblin	dsfg: "now you somehow lost me" - Maybe you are a troll then....its very easy to loose them...they are not very quick.	Oct 01 20:01
_goblin	dsfg: Yes, you know going to a church confessing to a priest.....best way for forgiveness....	Oct 01 20:01
dsfg	_goblin: lmao dude, you are a show in itself.	Oct 01 20:01
_goblin	dsfg: Thanks...	Oct 01 20:02
_goblin	dsfg: so you don't want to be forgiven? you asked for it after all....Quote "forgive me if I thought you had me in mind given the context"	Oct 01 20:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Despite to soaring rhetoric from Redmond #OOXML meetings are just Microsoft— #ODF has a broad coalition http://ur1.ca/crvr		Oct 01 20:03
phIRCe	Title: An Antic Disposition: The Final OOXML Update: Part I .::. Size~: 52.45 KB	Oct 01 20:03
_goblin	dsfg: Im sorry, I can't forgive you, its not my place to judge.....like I say seek out a church or whatever religion you follow.	Oct 01 20:03
ThistleWeb	Winmob? That sounds like a pet name for their perception management team	Oct 01 20:04
_goblin	Ive got other names for it, but Phrice will ban if I use them.	Oct 01 20:04
ThistleWeb	I guess "screwing up on Winmob" means "dumbasses forgot to cover their tracks again"	Oct 01 20:04
_goblin	I suffered with that "OS" for nearly a year....	Oct 01 20:04
_goblin	you have to give the coders credit though, when that baby crashed it did it in style and the only way you could switch it off was by removing the battery.	Oct 01 20:05
dsfg	_goblin: I think given the context the assumption that you meant me was valid. Since you said that isn't the case I appologized for assuming that. But sure, go ahead and turn that in every way you like.	Oct 01 20:05
_goblin	dsfg: Ok...thanks.	Oct 01 20:06
dsfg	yw	Oct 01 20:06
_goblin	I was using the MDA Mail....it was dire...	Oct 01 20:06
_goblin	Another happy Windows user:	Oct 01 20:07
_goblin	"The problems have been numerous and countless and as my colleague put earlier on, a representative of the students in the education sector, he was, “f***ing livid”."	Oct 01 20:07
_goblin	or this happy comment:	Oct 01 20:07
_goblin	"I logged into a Vista-running public PC for the first time today. Well, I say “logged in” to the point where I entered my username and password but got no further as the remaining 12 minutes was waiting on the folder redirection policy. I gave up in the end and went to my lecture."	Oct 01 20:07
_goblin	I wonder when Ballmer will say sorry to them?	Oct 01 20:08
tessier	http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1556944/linux-saves-aussie-electricity	Oct 01 20:09
tessier	That's pretty sweet.	Oct 01 20:09
_goblin	Its all on an article of mine, along with a member of the MS faithful who claims you should buy Windows 7 but it doesn't have any advantages over XP.....	Oct 01 20:09
_goblin	http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/xp-still-no-reason-for-upgrade-vista-users-fing-livid/	Oct 01 20:09
phIRCe	Title: XP Still no reason for upgrade? Vista users f***ing livid? « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 60.04 KB	Oct 01 20:09
tessier	_goblin: openbytes.wordpress.com is your blog?	Oct 01 20:12
_goblin	yeah.	Oct 01 20:13
_goblin	been running it just over a year now.	Oct 01 20:13
_goblin	see my photo/wanted poster!	Oct 01 20:13
_goblin	and Gnutee beard!	Oct 01 20:13
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tessier	argh...NetworkManager is constantly pissing me off. It always tells my apps the network is down if I manually do anything with the network.	Oct 01 20:14
trmanco	http://releases.ubuntu.com/karmic/	Oct 01 20:14
phIRCe	Title: Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala) Beta .::. Size~: 22.88 KB	Oct 01 20:14
trmanco	:)	Oct 01 20:14
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amarsh04	Carla picked up on my submission of the Integral Energy story in linuxtoday.com	Oct 01 20:37
_goblin	I get most of my big hits from either distrowatch or tuxmachines.	Oct 01 20:38
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MikeyC	Hey Roy, you about?	Oct 01 20:41
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MrFitness	Hey Roy i can't see any chat	Oct 01 20:42
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MikeyC	i will come back later, ther must be a fault	Oct 01 20:44
fewa	maybe I should start a blog	Oct 01 20:44
_goblin	I would recommend it.	Oct 01 20:45
_goblin	or you could join mine.	Oct 01 20:45
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MrFitness	roy you there?	Oct 01 20:47
_goblin	I think he's still afk	Oct 01 20:48
MrFitness	ok thanks what's afk btw?	Oct 01 20:50
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trmanco	away from keyboard	Oct 01 20:51
MrFitness	thanks	Oct 01 20:51
Diablo-D3	http://www.venfl.com/features2/frassetti_vindicated2.htm	Oct 01 21:00
phIRCe	Title: Venice Florida! - The firing of Michael Frassetti, part 2 .::. Size~: 54.08 KB	Oct 01 21:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Americans Don't Want Targeted Ads - Whodathunkit? http://tinyurl.com/y9h4y4s		Oct 01 21:03
phIRCe	Title: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story \| Americans Don't Want Targeted Ads .::. Size~: 136.19 KB	Oct 01 21:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] XPM RTM! – XP mode with more than a few things you should consider. http://tinyurl.com/yafjc43 #microsoft #windows #xpm windows		Oct 01 21:05
phIRCe	Title: XPM RTM! XP mode with more than a few things you should consider. « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 34.05 KB	Oct 01 21:05
MinceR	i wonder if it comes with the sockstress vulnerability, too	Oct 01 21:06
Diablo-D3	http://www.qwantz.com/fanart/superman.pdf	Oct 01 21:06
phIRCe	Title: Not a web page! Aborting... .::. Size~: Too big!	Oct 01 21:06
_goblin	MinceR: Probably, but vulnerability or not, if its an extra feature they will charge you for it....	Oct 01 21:07
MinceR	hopefully they won't have the opportunity to charge me for vista7	Oct 01 21:08
_goblin	mincer: A little like going to a restaurant that offers cheap food only to find you get charged £100 for a plate and a knife and fork.	Oct 01 21:09
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_goblin	I do want to know where Mr LeBlanc is getting 15gig requirement from....Does he mean thats for XPM+Windows 7 or simply XPM..? If its just for XPM, what on earth is it doing with all that space?	Oct 01 21:10
MinceR	wasting it, just like all the predecessors	Oct 01 21:12
_goblin	its not a waste as far as Microsoft is concerned...simply spend more money and get more...."easy come easy go" thats what I think Microsofts software dev ethos is.	Oct 01 21:14
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MrF	Roy?	Oct 01 21:22
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fewa	http://simulatedcomicproduct.com/2009/04/13/application-process/	Oct 01 21:27
phIRCe	Title: Simulated Comic Product » Archive » Application Process .::. Size~: 30.7 KB	Oct 01 21:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Aww...why is nobody seeming to "proudly" announce Windows 7 parties anymore? IMO the most tragic concept in a long time! #microsoft #windows		Oct 01 21:28
MrF	Roy if you read this the gym closes tomorrow at 5pm for the conference so you have to have your rowing completed for 5pm, best of luck!	Oct 01 21:31
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MrF	.	Oct 01 21:32
trmanco	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p3mk6T_nR4	Oct 01 21:34
phIRCe	Title: YouTube - Will Google ever provide statistics on browser market share? .::. Size~: 140.13 KB	Oct 01 21:34
trmanco	http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/beta	Oct 01 21:38
phIRCe	Title: 9.10 Technical Overview \| Ubuntu .::. Size~: 37.47 KB	Oct 01 21:38
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fewa	trmanco, doublespeak	Oct 01 21:46
fewa	they have a massive dataset that includes all their users	Oct 01 21:46
fewa	not just their "google analytics"	Oct 01 21:46
fewa	all google is google analytics	Oct 01 21:47
trmanco	yeah	Oct 01 21:47
fewa	they would like a world were people don't think about all that data google has	Oct 01 21:48
amarsh04	use alternate search engines: ixquick.com cuil.com	Oct 01 21:49
ThistleWeb	fewa: that's why they wont release it	Oct 01 21:49
ThistleWeb	it only draws attention to that, which they DON'T want	Oct 01 21:50
fewa	ixquick has a great privacy policy	Oct 01 21:50
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry	Oct 01 21:53
phIRCe	Title: Information asymmetry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 40.01 KB	Oct 01 21:53
fewa	Markets are inherently not free when one party has more information	Oct 01 21:54
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stiglitz#Information_asymmetry	Oct 01 21:54
phIRCe	Title: Joseph Stiglitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 133.6 KB	Oct 01 21:54
fewa	" Whenever there are “externalities”—where the actions of an individual have impacts on others for which they do not pay or for which they are not compensated—markets will not work well. But recent research has shown that these externalities are pervasive, whenever there is imperfect information or imperfect risk markets—that is always.	Oct 01 21:54
fewa	The real debate today is about finding the right balance between the market and government. Both are needed. They can each complement each other. This balance will differ from time to time and place to place."	Oct 01 21:54
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @internetarchive Amy Goodman, host of @democracy_now , has a piece in @truthdig about the GBS and Internet Archive: http://ur1.ca/cs2j		Oct 01 22:01
phIRCe	Title: Truthdig - Reports - Scanning the Horizon of Books and Libraries .::. Size~: 76.52 KB	Oct 01 22:01
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schestowitz	he's gone again	Oct 01 22:03
schestowitz	just missed it	Oct 01 22:03
schestowitz	Lund troll. http://twitter.com/jlundstocholm/statuses/4529935591	Oct 01 22:05
phIRCe	Title: Twitter / Jesper Lund Stocholm: @rcweir just read your art ... .::. Size~: 9.56 KB	Oct 01 22:05
schestowitz	fewa: Microsoft wants ODF	Oct 01 22:06
schestowitz	I didn't realise just how many seats they have gained by now	Oct 01 22:06
schestowitz	ISO helps them stuff things up	Oct 01 22:06
schestowitz	http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/09/28/facebook-poll-asks-should-obama-be-killed	Oct 01 22:07
phIRCe	Title: Sick "Should Obama Be Killed?" Poll Created by Minor \| WebProNews .::. Size~: 39.46 KB	Oct 01 22:07
fewa	you mean they want to sabotage ODF	Oct 01 22:07
fewa	ISO is outdated	Oct 01 22:07
fewa	w3.org is the current model of how a standard organization should operate	Oct 01 22:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Leathal weapons. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/14858.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/528805.html		Oct 01 22:08
phIRCe	Title: reddragdiva \| Lethal weapons. .::. Size~: 28.6 KB	Oct 01 22:08
phIRCe	Title: reddragdiva: Lethal weapons. .::. Size~: 20.29 KB	Oct 01 22:08
fewa	why does it have to say the size?	Oct 01 22:09
fewa	whos bot is it?	Oct 01 22:09
_goblin	Roy some good news and something the MS faithful should keep in mind in the future:	Oct 01 22:10
_goblin	Court order served over Twitter - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8285954.stm	Oct 01 22:10
phIRCe	Title: BBC NEWS \| News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.01 KB	Oct 01 22:10
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/01/tom_tom_hq_raided_for_insider_investigation/	Oct 01 22:11
phIRCe	Title: TomTom HQ raided in insider trading investigation • The Register .::. Size~: 21.58 KB	Oct 01 22:11
fewa	WTF	Oct 01 22:11
fewa	thats bbc article is a wash	Oct 01 22:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Proprietary pushers consider your actions carefully: Court order served over Twitter - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8285954.stm		Oct 01 22:12
phIRCe	Title: BBC NEWS \| News Front Page .::. Size~: 85.03 KB	Oct 01 22:12
fewa	but killing free speech (which protect anonymity) for a misconstrued copyright claim is absurd	Oct 01 22:12
fewa	..well its the UK	Oct 01 22:12
schestowitz	fewa: nothing to do with s/w	Oct 01 22:12
schestowitz	More with abuse	Oct 01 22:13
fewa	nothing to do with copyright either	Oct 01 22:13
fewa	in the US it would be "personality rights"	Oct 01 22:13
fewa	but that doesn't trump first amendment protected right to anonymity	Oct 01 22:13
schestowitz	http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1557078/wave-invites-hit-sales-sites	Oct 01 22:13
schestowitz	fewa: it's more problematic with the Web	Oct 01 22:14
fewa	I don't see why they cant sell them	Oct 01 22:14
fewa	I hate the whole misconstrued notion of property these days	Oct 01 22:14
fewa	its totally backwards	Oct 01 22:14
schestowitz	fewa: are you scientes?	Oct 01 22:14
schestowitz	I asked before because somehow thought you were on Twitter	Oct 01 22:15
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schestowitz	http://ostatic.com/blog/palms-app-catalog-should-embrace-open-source-not-reject-it	Oct 01 22:22
phIRCe	Title: Palm's App Catalog Should Embrace Open Source, Not Reject It .::. Size~: 33.71 KB	Oct 01 22:23
schestowitz	amarsh04: nice one: http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-10-01-024-35-SC-BZ-DP	Oct 01 22:35
phIRCe	Title: Linux Today - Your power grid does not run on MS-Windows, but it's being monitored by MS-Windows .::. Size~: 82.27 KB	Oct 01 22:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Informed P2P User Act http://ur1.ca/cs5a shows congress knows little about computers Why not enforcing existing #spyware laws? #hr1319		Oct 01 22:37
schestowitz	amarsh04: also: http://www.cio.com.au/article/320592/nsw_	Oct 01 22:37
phIRCe	Title: NSW Office of State Revenue CIO reflects on five successful years of open source - CIOs, government, NSW Office of State Revenue, open source - CIO .::. Size~: 107.29 KB	Oct 01 22:37
amarsh04	yes, I was pleased that it was published almost instantaneously, schestowitz	Oct 01 22:41
schestowitz	http://junocake.blogspot.com/2009/09/lvm-disk-recipes-for-debian.html	Oct 01 22:41
phIRCe	Title: Under the Spreading Chestnut Tree: LVM Disk Recipes for Debian .::. Size~: 73.54 KB	Oct 01 22:41
schestowitz	"Some five years ago, NSW OSR’s then-CIO Mike Kennedy told Computerworld the agency was using commodity hardware running Linux, which it has continued to do ever since. At first Debian GNU/Linux was used, but in 2002 the system was migrated to the commercially-supported Red Hat Enterprise. This makes the OSR a very early adopter for an organisation of its size and complexity."	Oct 01 22:42
schestowitz	http://thelinuxexperiment.com/guinea-pigs/jake-b/gentoo-updates-and-annoyances/	Oct 01 22:42
phIRCe	Title: Gentoo updates and annoyances \| The Linux Experiment .::. Size~: 40.86 KB	Oct 01 22:42
schestowitz	Linux Today has been posting old (days/weeks) items recently, maybe the editor is busy and not keeping up with a lot of the latest news	Oct 01 22:43
amarsh04	A good article on gnu/linux would be for an analysis of what is needed to get advances in xserver-xorg, kernel mode-setting and the like integrated into release products and distributions	Oct 01 22:52
schestowitz	http://aplawrence.com/Unixart/C_is_for_Crap.html	Oct 01 22:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Twitter impersonator to be served with injunction.- http://tinyurl.com/yeh5vbh		Oct 01 22:53
phIRCe	Title: C is for Crap .::. Size~: 31.78 KB	Oct 01 22:53
phIRCe	Title: Twitter impersonator to be served with injunction. « OPEN BYTES cave quid dicis, quando, et cui. .::. Size~: 31.39 KB	Oct 01 22:53
amarsh04	xserver-xorg was delayed about 3 days from initial release into Debian unstable to working release due to a problem at startup that had been patched in a matter of hours	Oct 01 22:53
trmanco	heh	Oct 01 22:53
schestowitz	http://www.everyjoe.com/articles/wow-i-am-surprised-that-linux-is-bloated/	Oct 01 22:54
phIRCe	Title: Wow, I am Surprised that Linux is Bloated : EveryJoe - Sports News Tech Reviews Entertainment Life Tips for EveryJoe .::. Size~: 50.52 KB	Oct 01 22:54
schestowitz	It's exaggerated	Oct 01 22:54
cubezzz	bah	Oct 01 22:54
schestowitz	Features are being diabled	Oct 01 22:55
schestowitz	Red Hat'\s CEO debunked it	Oct 01 22:55
cubezzz	try Embedix then :)	Oct 01 22:55
cubezzz	there's lots of distros that are as small as you like	Oct 01 22:55
MinceR	"Syntactic limitations, such as the lack of a "then" keyword" What. The. Fuck.	Oct 01 22:55
*MinceR stops reading that article		Oct 01 22:55
_goblin	fewa: Sorry I missed your previous comments...I think the "victory" is over the tactics themselves...how often have people here been impersonated by unknown parties in order to cheapen their view? I think FOSS advocates are amongst the most common victim of this practice and thats why I saw it as good news of sorts...	Oct 01 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Google Wave to transform the Internet http://notnews.today.com/?p=675		Oct 01 22:56
phIRCe	Title: Google Wave to transform the Internet - News of the News .::. Size~: 33.69 KB	Oct 01 22:56
_goblin	fewa: I do agree on the copyright point though....maybe its been poorly reported...I fail to see the copyright issue here....	Oct 01 22:57
trmanco	then keyword?	Oct 01 22:59
trmanco	"lean and lightweight which is why the industry was surprised and shocked on the comment of Linuz Torvalds"	Oct 01 23:00
trmanco	well	Oct 01 23:00
trmanco	I'll stop reading it here	Oct 01 23:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Some troubling news about Mandriva. http://ping.fm/aT6ij		Oct 01 23:01
phIRCe	Title: Some things just take time « The dark side of me .::. Size~: 16.38 KB	Oct 01 23:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Shh!! Don't mention Open Street Maps http://tinyurl.com/y9vl4zc		Oct 01 23:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] RT @schugg: 40 more Google Wave invites left, follow me, @schugg and RT this.. Last call then I will do more later! #googlewave		Oct 01 23:09
schestowitz	Corporatists versus real freedom, again: http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/10/leaning_towards.html;jsessionid=DYWGURKSYKQZFQE1GHRSKH4ATMY32JVN	Oct 01 23:12
phIRCe	Title: Leaning Towards Freedom - Open Source Blog - InformationWeek .::. Size~: 85.07 KB	Oct 01 23:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz hey, if they can only compete with a good open source (BSD licence!) new thing ... then they might survive		Oct 01 23:14
trmanco	gn everybody	Oct 01 23:19
trmanco	!quit phIRCe	Oct 01 23:19
*phIRCe has quit ("Exiting! phIRCe - I told you so!(http://bitbucket.org/trmanco/phirce/)")		Oct 01 23:19
schestowitz	gn, bot (oh, and trmanco)	Oct 01 23:22
schestowitz	I'm gonna post some links	Oct 01 23:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Australia 's Electrical Grid Saved by #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/yEbo4		Oct 01 23:48
*dsfg has quit ("Page closed")		Oct 01 23:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NSW ( #Australia ) CIO Speaks About #GNU #Linux and #FreeSoftware Deployments http://bit.ly/Y6TkR		Oct 01 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Instanton Makes 2009 the "Year of #Linux Desktop" http://bit.ly/4FHu4W http://bit.ly/24kNPO		Oct 01 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Tips for Making #GNU #Linux Desktops Child Safe(r) http://bit.ly/2XLaTB		Oct 01 23:57

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