IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 24th, 2009

Chips_B_Malroy	Its interesting that MS cut MS Works. as they recently invested more money in that as a "free advertiseing" based product available in places outside the USA. Where "piracy" is bigger. Why invest money, then turn right around and cancell the project?	Oct 24 00:02
_goblin	hi chips!	Oct 24 00:05
Chips_B_Malroy	hey goblin	Oct 24 00:06
Chips_B_Malroy	you see I have been posting stuff on your site	Oct 24 00:07
_goblin	yeah! Appreciated, Ive had little time to properly respond this week!	Oct 24 00:07
Chips_B_Malroy	I a bit off topic there I know	Oct 24 00:07
_goblin	Im still pleased about getting Indiana Gregg on my blog....ive a few other celebs lined up...	Oct 24 00:08
Chips_B_Malroy	you must be getting more hits there	Oct 24 00:11
_goblin	one or two....	Oct 24 00:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] My lad of 1 year and 4 months dances and claps to Lordi - "Hard Rock Hallelujah" he's rocker already....good lad..! #metal		Oct 24 00:19
Chips_B_Malroy	The "piracy" or copyright issue is an interesting one. My take on it is the media companies have been so sucessful in controlling the market (fixing prices, collaberation) that they themselves have partly caused the economic reasons for filesharing to exsist. M$ is in similar terrory here.	Oct 24 00:21
_goblin	true...	Oct 24 00:21
trmanco	!quit phIRCe	Oct 24 00:21
*phIRCe has quit ("Exiting! phIRCe - I told you so! .::. http://bitbucket.org/trmanco/phirce/")		Oct 24 00:21
trmanco	gn	Oct 24 00:21
Chips_B_Malroy	I am not condoning it, only the end results is what interests me	Oct 24 00:22
_goblin	I think with Music in particular you have not only the issue of piracy but also the fact that the technology to record your own work is within the reach of the average person....	Oct 24 00:22
Chips_B_Malroy	yes	Oct 24 00:23
Chips_B_Malroy	midi can actually sound good on some instruments	Oct 24 00:23
Chips_B_Malroy	as example	Oct 24 00:24
_goblin	I think its quite possible now to create an almost studio quality production with tech that you already have....I think that will be the problem for labels....	Oct 24 00:26
Chips_B_Malroy	midi would be almost an onasaleable legal hurdle for the music industry to sue, I would think	Oct 24 00:27
Chips_B_Malroy	*un	Oct 24 00:27
Chips_B_Malroy	of course there will be other ways to transcribe sheet music to some kind of player, without the orginal vocals	Oct 24 00:28
Chips_B_Malroy	if that would be piracy, who knows	Oct 24 00:28
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Chips_B_Malroy	see, being an old fart I did not ever know who Indy is. My last purchases of music was Pink Floyd and Alan Parsons	Oct 24 00:29
Chips_B_Malroy	back a few years	Oct 24 00:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linus Loves It! http://bit.ly/d6lpo #fsf #kernel #humor		Oct 24 00:30
schestowitz	Linus would kill me	Oct 24 00:30
Chips_B_Malroy	Goblin, so you see, I have no sympathy for the media companies or MicroSoft, which act as monopolies, set prices that are too high. Sue their custermors	Oct 24 00:31
Chips_B_Malroy	as I said, both sides are wrong, but one side is just plain evil	Oct 24 00:32
schestowitz	http://digg.com/linux_unix/Linus_Loves_It	Oct 24 00:32
Chips_B_Malroy	as in evil with greed	Oct 24 00:32
Chips_B_Malroy	and MicroSoft is a media company, think MSNBC, Silverlight, partner with Netflix using Silverlight, streaming vids to XBox360. They MS, want to move move into the media bus	Oct 24 00:36
Chips_B_Malroy	its why all the DRM in ViSta/$even	Oct 24 00:36
schestowitz	http://www.hochmann.org/2009/10/response-to-floss-91-boycott-novell.html	Oct 24 00:37
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schestowitz	http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7585/1.html	Oct 24 00:45
schestowitz	I like him better with RMS books :-D	Oct 24 00:45
schestowitz	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-10-23-014-35-OS-HU-0001 "I knew he was losing his edge when he wouldn't take a stand for freedom with RMS but especially now you can see he can even think logically because he set the wrong bit on his hand."	Oct 24 00:46
schestowitz	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-10-23-014-35-OS-HU-0000 "Did he ship a life-size glossy of this to Ballmer? "	Oct 24 00:47
Chips_B_Malroy	well, you folks keep up the good work, later	Oct 24 00:56
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cubezzz	Ballmer is a mental case	Oct 24 01:02
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schestowitz	http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10014279o-2000331777b,00.htm	Oct 24 01:13
schestowitz	back in a moment	Oct 24 01:14
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**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Oct 24 01:20:30 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovell		Oct 24 01:20
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged]		Oct 24 01:20
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009		Oct 24 01:20
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel		Oct 24 01:20
schestowitz	Sun is anxious to be sold. http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2009/10/21/On-the-EU	Oct 24 01:24
cubezzz	we'll end up with two behemoths	Oct 24 01:26
cubezzz	Microsoft and Oracle	Oct 24 01:26
schestowitz	What about IBM?	Oct 24 01:27
schestowitz	And GOOG and Apple?	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	Oligarchs in their respective fields	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	Mostly US-based companies	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	EU has SAP	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	But for s/w in general, it's mostly US-owned	Oct 24 01:28
cubezzz	well, I'm thinking of software mostly	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	Unless I forgot something	Oct 24 01:28
schestowitz	Asia has the h/w giants	Oct 24 01:29
schestowitz	Samsung employed 700,000	Oct 24 01:29
schestowitz	Two IBMs in one company	Oct 24 01:29
schestowitz	Microsoft is expected to lay off more	Oct 24 01:29
cubezzz	huh, didn't realize Samsung was so big	Oct 24 01:29
schestowitz	It's just a darn nuisance to people who use FS on the desktop	Oct 24 01:29
schestowitz	They also contaminate the Web with their binaries	Oct 24 01:30
schestowitz	Foxconn is a lot bigger than Samsung	Oct 24 01:30
cubezzz	well it seems to me that the Japanese companies are more linux friendly	Oct 24 01:30
schestowitz	Foxconn laid off 100,000 at one point last year	Oct 24 01:30
schestowitz	That's several stadiums full of employees, all sacked	Oct 24 01:30
schestowitz	To announce to them that they get the pink slip you'd need a massive standium	Oct 24 01:31
schestowitz	cubezzz: Japan yes, for devices	Oct 24 01:31
schestowitz	Robotics as well	Oct 24 01:31
schestowitz	http://www.masshightech.com/stories/2009/10/19/daily28-REvolution-Computing-lands-9M-new-CEO-Nie.html	Oct 24 01:32
schestowitz	"OpenCalais"? WT*? http://www.afxnews.com/content/press_room/media/2009_10_21_OpenCalais	Oct 24 01:36
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AlFraken kicks eleventy-million kinds of ass in health-care hearing http://ur1.ca/eb0f		Oct 24 01:54
Diablo-D3	hrm lets try that again	Oct 24 01:54
*schestowitz plays with kwin effectsxz		Oct 24 01:57
schestowitz	Ooh.. it's snowing	Oct 24 01:58
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AlFranken kicks eleventy-million kinds of ass in health-care hearing http://ur1.ca/eb0f		Oct 24 01:59
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oiaohm	I guess schestowitz is in bed.	Oct 24 02:00
schestowitz	Nope	Oct 24 02:00
schestowitz	What's up?	Oct 24 02:01
oiaohm	The nokia one is not software patents but hardware patents.	Oct 24 02:01
oiaohm	I have a feeling apple might have started it off using there hardware font rendering patent against nokia.	Oct 24 02:01
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schestowitz	"Webkit was developed by Apple out of the code originally created by the KDE project, and released as open source in mid-2005." http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/10/21/urnidgns852573C4006938800025765600836407.DTL	Oct 24 02:02
schestowitz	jose_X: caught your comment in LT re Linus	Oct 24 02:02
jose_X	ok	Oct 24 02:02
schestowitz	So I made a corrected version :-)	Oct 24 02:02
jose_X	will check	Oct 24 02:02
jose_X	http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Icahn-resigns-from-Yahoos-apf-2058818319.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=	Oct 24 02:02
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/10/23/linus-loves-fsf/	Oct 24 02:02
jose_X	"Icahn resigns from Yahoo's board on friendly terms"	Oct 24 02:02
oiaohm	Nokia does not really believe in software patents. Hardware patent breach is simpler to prove schestowitz	Oct 24 02:02
schestowitz	Linus would no longer reply to my mail if he saw it	Oct 24 02:02
schestowitz	jose_X: friendly to whom?	Oct 24 02:03
schestowitz	The cronies whom he helped appoint?	Oct 24 02:03
jose_X	yes,	Oct 24 02:03
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jose_X	>> Icahn also applauded Yahoo's decision three months ago to hire Microsoft to provide its search results in the United States for the next decade. It's a partnership that Icahn tried to bring together while he was still seeking to get Yang fired. The proposed alliance between Yahoo and Microsoft still requires regulatory approval.	Oct 24 02:03
schestowitz	He voted for all this	Oct 24 02:03
schestowitz	Including the s*ty microsoft deal	Oct 24 02:03
schestowitz	That final agreement	Oct 24 02:04
shreddar	http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ron-hovsepian-ballmer.jpg	Oct 24 02:04
shreddar	That was just class.	Oct 24 02:04
schestowitz	shreddar: gimp	Oct 24 02:04
schestowitz	jose_X: There's more to Icahn	Oct 24 02:06
schestowitz	If you look at the massibe banks corruption	Oct 24 02:07
schestowitz	He's there	Oct 24 02:07
schestowitz	IMHO, people like him should be arrested	Oct 24 02:07
shreddar	I want to know if that Dilbert strip was really talking about MS or just general corporate culture. I'm a Scott Adams fan.	Oct 24 02:07
schestowitz	He's the Kissinger/Nixon of commerce	Oct 24 02:07
schestowitz	A bunch of coup-lovin' war criminals	Oct 24 02:07
schestowitz	shreddar: a reader said it was	Oct 24 02:08
schestowitz	Not many people do what Gates does at the same scale. Rockefeller did	Oct 24 02:08
schestowitz	It's usually some of the greater criminal who are forced to do this to get people off their backs	Oct 24 02:08
*schestowitz disables snow effect on the desktop		Oct 24 02:09
schestowitz	Using the ASUS Xonar Essence STX Under Linux http://techgage.com/article/using_the_asus_xonar_essence_stx_under_linux	Oct 24 02:10
shreddar	Yeah, I hear that Rockefeller was the pioneer of TRUSTs.	Oct 24 02:11
schestowitz	Rick Berman	Oct 24 02:11
schestowitz	http://www.bermanexposed.org/	Oct 24 02:12
Diablo-D3	RAGH	Oct 24 02:12
Diablo-D3	RICK BERMAN	Oct 24 02:12
Diablo-D3	HOW DARE HE DESTROY STAR TREK	Oct 24 02:12
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/01/fake-charities-microsoft-insiders/	Oct 24 02:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] News round up http://bit.ly/LSFka #microsoft #linux #windows #bbc #foss #fatELF		Oct 24 02:12
jose_X	schestowitz, I am going to bed very soon.	Oct 24 02:13
schestowitz	"Oops Microsoft did it again!"	Oct 24 02:13
schestowitz	"Whilst our MS Faithful are praising the greatness of Vista 7 and the fact that they can get Vista users upgrading their OS to what Vista should have been in the first place, in the back of their minds must be the news that yet again Microsoft’s profits are down."	Oct 24 02:13
jose_X	from linuxtoday it seems like vmware might get a linux flavor out. can't wait. (sarcasm)	Oct 24 02:14
Diablo-D3	I think we may be talking about different rick bermans	Oct 24 02:14
jose_X	my lt comment about linus was misunderstood	Oct 24 02:14
jose_X	i decided not to take the flame approach	Oct 24 02:15
jose_X	see new comment	Oct 24 02:15
schestowitz	jose_X: see my post about it..	Oct 24 02:17
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/10/23/vmware-sw-distribution/	Oct 24 02:17
schestowitz	Diablo-D3: the one I talk about belongs behind bars	Oct 24 02:17
Diablo-D3	the one I talk about does too	Oct 24 02:18
schestowitz	Nasty racism in the comments here: http://www.phonenews.com/htc-releases-hero-source-code-for-developers-9308/	Oct 24 02:20
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oiaohm	vmware using Linux kernel is to be predicted they have given approval for there patented techs to be used in it.	Oct 24 02:24
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gQCN3ZKJrF8SDelVMrBaWa-Yz-Jg COOOOOOOOOOOOOl.....	Oct 24 02:25
EDavidBurg	they said open source. oh noes!	Oct 24 02:25
shreddar	So did HTC make it's own mobile OS?	Oct 24 02:27
schestowitz	EDavidBurg: ODF+OOo	Oct 24 02:27
schestowitz	First step t/w other platforms	Oct 24 02:27
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/28/latvia-and-uk-odf/	Oct 24 02:28
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/24/microsoft-kyrgyzstan-latvia-ukraine/	Oct 24 02:28
schestowitz	Bad Ballmer jumps in	Oct 24 02:28
EDavidBurg	I know, I was poking fun at the people who insist on saying Free Software. :)	Oct 24 02:30
schestowitz	Blankenhorn seems to have a man.crush() on Asay, still http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/thinking-tech/how-open-source-will-transform-the-coming-decade/1872/	Oct 24 02:30
oiaohm	schestowitz: Gallium3D is also funded by vmware. So Vmware releasing a distribution in time to make some extra profit of the work they do is kinda preditable.	Oct 24 02:30
shreddar	Ya Know I've been thinking about all of the bashing/plastering of Free Software as well as Open Source Software groups.	Oct 24 02:30
shreddar	It seems that there is a twist on the Anti-free to make it look anti-consumer.	Oct 24 02:31
schestowitz	Microsoft's OSS faker OSS again... http://www.newswiretoday.com/news/59391/	Oct 24 02:32
schestowitz	Aras... sigh	Oct 24 02:32
schestowitz	shreddar: or opposite of "commercial"	Oct 24 02:32
schestowitz	the OSS crowd sometimes mollifies the Microsoft talking points/lies	Oct 24 02:33
shreddar	Yeah, I mean they make Free Software look like it's bad for customers but in reality it's very pro customer.	Oct 24 02:33
schestowitz	Not to the marketing side	Oct 24 02:35
schestowitz	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en-GB&q=schmidt+google+where+lockin&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8	Oct 24 02:35
shreddar	If copy rights, patents, user licenses, DRM, etc weren't being used so heavily it would only promote choice.	Oct 24 02:36
shreddar	The only people Free Software is bad for is Software companies because it means more competition and consumer choice.	Oct 24 02:36
schestowitz	Yes	Oct 24 02:38
schestowitz	But they try to imply we rely on them	Oct 24 02:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] When 100% is not enough... [IMG] http://bit.ly/oY5BD		Oct 24 02:38
schestowitz	As in, "support the vendor"	Oct 24 02:39
schestowitz	And if $vendor does not get much money, poor sad developers will starve	Oct 24 02:39
schestowitz	It's the same old lies that MAFIAA uses	Oct 24 02:39
schestowitz	/developers/artists/	Oct 24 02:39
oiaohm	This is the stupid part.	Oct 24 02:39
oiaohm	What is the most important thing that must happen to software you want to keep on using.	Oct 24 02:39
oiaohm	Maintainer ship.	Oct 24 02:39
schestowitz	They don't like business models that leave the customer not at point of desparation	Oct 24 02:39
schestowitz	See, listener can be in control	Oct 24 02:40
oiaohm	Giving software away for free with no maintainer ship will become a problem.	Oct 24 02:40
schestowitz	And pay upon will buy buying ceoncert ticket/merchandise	Oct 24 02:40
schestowitz	Equiv. to support contracts and such	Oct 24 02:40
schestowitz	People are not forced to	Oct 24 02:40
schestowitz	They can use centos	Oct 24 02:40
oiaohm	So open source world companies pay developers and the like to do maintainer ship on the software they depend on.	Oct 24 02:40
schestowitz	But at least there is abundance	Oct 24 02:40
oiaohm	80 percent of the Linux kernel developers are known to be full time paid to work on it.	Oct 24 02:41
schestowitz	Yes.	Oct 24 02:41
oiaohm	The other 20 percent have not declared there status	Oct 24 02:41
oiaohm	And I would not be supprised if a large percentage of them were paid as well.	Oct 24 02:41
schestowitz	Apache is the same	Oct 24 02:42
schestowitz	But Apache might even have more devs than Linux	Oct 24 02:42
schestowitz	They have many sub-projects]	Oct 24 02:42
oiaohm	Apache developer numbers are large than the Linux kernel and keep the same percentages. To be correct appache is almost 90 percent paids known.	Oct 24 02:42
schestowitz	Groklaw worries me.. http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20091021164738392	Oct 24 02:43
oiaohm	Simple problem here the ideas that people work on open source for free.	Oct 24 02:43
schestowitz	She goes about accusing Monty of being a shill for Microsoft or something	Oct 24 02:43
schestowitz	See update 3	Oct 24 02:43
oiaohm	It is not true that most developers in the open source world work for free.	Oct 24 02:43
schestowitz	Most probably do	Oct 24 02:44
schestowitz	Depends how you define scope	Oct 24 02:44
schestowitz	I was paid to write some GPL code	Oct 24 02:44
schestowitz	But some of the time I wrote it for no pay	Oct 24 02:44
voltronw	schestowitz: cool, what project?	Oct 24 02:45
schestowitz	FS is recognition also of the fact that people code for fun, not just money	Oct 24 02:45
oiaohm	Monty has always been a confusing person.	Oct 24 02:45
schestowitz	Some code for ego	Oct 24 02:45
oiaohm	Monty start off with mysql closed.	Oct 24 02:45
schestowitz	Like RMS says, "people couldn't believe this could be done"	Oct 24 02:45
schestowitz	Or something like that	Oct 24 02:46
voltronw	schestowitz: do you have a link?	Oct 24 02:46
schestowitz	Yes, see my site	Oct 24 02:46
oiaohm	People start off coding for fun. Take Linus schestowitz	Oct 24 02:46
voltronw	where?	Oct 24 02:46
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes	Oct 24 02:46
schestowitz	voltronw: "Projects"	Oct 24 02:46
schestowitz	There's more under "Research"	Oct 24 02:46
oiaohm	Anyone with great skills companies will employ to have dependable patch cycle.	Oct 24 02:46
schestowitz	oiaohm: Linus did an MA out of is, or MSc	Oct 24 02:47
oiaohm	Early on in Linux history Linus only did releases when he had time.	Oct 24 02:47
schestowitz	He worked as a TA to carry on coding what started as personal need/advanture	Oct 24 02:47
schestowitz	*Advanture	Oct 24 02:47
oiaohm	This is not productive for businesses not to be able to get patches when they need it.	Oct 24 02:47
schestowitz	Same with WordPress, b2 derivative/successor	Oct 24 02:47
oiaohm	All open source projects go threw the same kind of live cycle.	Oct 24 02:48
oiaohm	Even X11 is going threw it.	Oct 24 02:48
schestowitz	*through	Oct 24 02:48
oiaohm	Years of choas releases	Oct 24 02:48
schestowitz	I notice you repeat this typo	Oct 24 02:48
voltronw	schestowitz: you got paid to work on othello master?	Oct 24 02:48
schestowitz	No, KMD	Oct 24 02:48
oiaohm	Its shorter to type call me lazy on the through one schestowitz. I get so many other words wrong what is one more.	Oct 24 02:49
schestowitz	And some smaller projects	Oct 24 02:49
schestowitz	"thru" is popular	Oct 24 02:49
schestowitz	Even in Microsoft internal mail	Oct 24 02:49
oiaohm	Then once it starts being used by business for making money the release cycles tidy up and paid staff enter.	Oct 24 02:50
oiaohm	X11 has to have spent the most time in the chaos stage.	Oct 24 02:50
voltronw	schestowitz: hehe gtk1.4! i remember that	Oct 24 02:50
voltronw	old school	Oct 24 02:50
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oiaohm	I remember gtk 1.0 voltronw Not fun.	Oct 24 02:51
voltronw	yeah CList	Oct 24 02:51
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oiaohm	Mostly because I had to update a gtk 1.0 app 3 days ago.	Oct 24 02:51
voltronw	really frustrating	Oct 24 02:51
oiaohm	Yep end up recoding the complete front end it was simpler.	Oct 24 02:52
voltronw	and the TextView widget would show little arrows when it wrapped lines. eesh	Oct 24 02:53
oiaohm	People don't have a clue how far open source world has come voltronw	Oct 24 02:54
voltronw	yeah, kids these days!	Oct 24 02:54
schestowitz	Firefox was great	Oct 24 02:55
shreddar	Well, software companies know.	Oct 24 02:55
schestowitz	It used to be an arse with Web browsing	Oct 24 02:55
oiaohm	gtk 1.4 is from the year 2000 voltronw	Oct 24 02:55
schestowitz	Accessing banks for instance	Oct 24 02:55
schestowitz	Although Netscape was supported by many	Oct 24 02:55
schestowitz	Then at a later stage Netscape got neglected and embedded WMP was a PITA	Oct 24 02:56
oiaohm	Opps gtk 1.2 is from the year 2000	Oct 24 02:56
schestowitz	Then came YouTube and stuff	Oct 24 02:56
schestowitz	FLash videos	Oct 24 02:56
schestowitz	And Firefox for browsing	Oct 24 02:56
schestowitz	Downloading .avis gradually became a thing of the past	Oct 24 02:56
schestowitz	SO there went Linux' multimedia pains	Oct 24 02:57
schestowitz	Wine matured for those who needed it	Oct 24 02:57
oiaohm	avi work in xine and mplayerhq as well.	Oct 24 02:57
schestowitz	KDE was fine for ages, more functional than Mac OS 9 and Windows in its days.... more features	Oct 24 02:57
oiaohm	The break up of DRM techs have helped Linux.	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, zine	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	*xine	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	And xmms	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	But some stuff was tricky to set up	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	Now it's a lot simpler	Oct 24 02:58
oiaohm	That is the other thing people have missed open source has been fighting and winning wars.	Oct 24 02:58
shreddar	Man I was one of the first tester of Firefox. I think it was call Phoenix or Firebird. But I just knew there had to be faster browsers out there. It turns out that it was almost right because it was still very much beta.	Oct 24 02:58
schestowitz	in SuSE I had to get codecs from pacman and a caveman could not install them simply	Oct 24 02:58
oiaohm	The samba case to force MS to document stuff.	Oct 24 02:58
oiaohm	then ODF war that is on going.	Oct 24 02:59
schestowitz	I used Firefox 0.9	Oct 24 02:59
schestowitz	A colleague had me migrate to it from Mozila 1.7	Oct 24 02:59
Diablo-D3	heh	Oct 24 02:59
Diablo-D3	I used firefox when it didnt even have a name	Oct 24 02:59
schestowitz	Phoenix>Firebird	Oct 24 03:00
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Sir_Konrad	I listened to Roy Schestowitz on FLOSS Weekly a couple days ago.	Oct 24 03:01
shreddar	After Firefox I tried to go back to IE under the impression that all software should be from the same vender or bugs will happen. That didn't last long though. IE6 was just too slow. Even a buggy browser was preferable.	Oct 24 03:01
Sir_Konrad	I'm just being introduced to Boycott Novell.	Oct 24 03:02
Diablo-D3	is it me, or was that floss weekly thing kinda lame	Oct 24 03:02
Sir_Konrad	I have to say I don't agree with a lot of this stuff, but I find it very interesting.	Oct 24 03:02
oiaohm	shreddar: funny thing is lot of firefox recent problems have been caused by MS plugins.	Oct 24 03:03
Diablo-D3	what recent firefox problems?	Oct 24 03:03
oiaohm	Not running on windows 7	Oct 24 03:03
Sir_Konrad	(I'm a Windows guy right now. Please forgive me.)	Oct 24 03:03
shreddar	You mean the .Net thing.	Oct 24 03:03
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shreddar	Yeah, that's just evil.	Oct 24 03:03
Diablo-D3	oh, right, I keep forgetting people run on windows	Oct 24 03:04
Sir_Konrad	LOL @ Diablo-D3.	Oct 24 03:04
Diablo-D3	hey, I was being serious	Oct 24 03:04
Sir_Konrad	Go to your grandma's house and take a look at her PC.	Oct 24 03:04
Sir_Konrad	chances are it's running 98-Vista.	Oct 24 03:04
Diablo-D3	my grandmother lives with me, and she doesnt have a PC.	Oct 24 03:05
Sir_Konrad	ok.	Oct 24 03:05
schestowitz	http://pblog.bna.com/techlaw/2009/10/craigslist-eludes-sheriff-dart-thanks-to-cda-section-230-immunity-.html	Oct 24 03:05
Sir_Konrad	My grandma has a Vista laptop.	Oct 24 03:05
schestowitz	Hi, Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:05
*Sir_Konrad is now known as Sir_Konrad\|Away		Oct 24 03:05
Sir_Konrad\|Away	hi schestowitz.	Oct 24 03:06
Sir_Konrad\|Away	I'll be back after a few minutes.	Oct 24 03:06
schestowitz	OK	Oct 24 03:06
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willimm	hey everybody	Oct 24 03:07
schestowitz	http://labs.mozilla.com/raindrop	Oct 24 03:07
schestowitz	hey, willimm	Oct 24 03:07
Diablo-D3	ffffffffffff	Oct 24 03:08
willimm	what are your ideas, schestorwitz?	Oct 24 03:08
Diablo-D3	I wish mozilla would keep making projects no one uses	Oct 24 03:08
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Diablo-D3	also	Oct 24 03:08
Diablo-D3	how the hell did they turn LCD mode on the text?	Oct 24 03:08
willimm	schestowitz, how are you?	Oct 24 03:09
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willimm	schestowitz, hows your "mononono" system?	Oct 24 03:10
schestowitz	I'm ok, but it's 3am, so I'm off till the morning	Oct 24 03:10
*shreddar listening to that FLOSS Weekly thing schestomiz was on.		Oct 24 03:10
schestowitz	shreddar: it was atrocious	Oct 24 03:10
schestowitz	False allegation against me	Oct 24 03:11
willimm	Diddn't know it was 3 in the morning. In my time, it's 9:06.	Oct 24 03:11
schestowitz	But moreso against others, with me being put in a position to be held accountable	Oct 24 03:11
willimm	btw, how's your "mononono" system, schestowitz?	Oct 24 03:11
EDavidBurg	schestowitz: you mean the twitter thing?	Oct 24 03:12
*willimm is pondiring trying out LFS now.		Oct 24 03:12
EDavidBurg	willimm: good luck	Oct 24 03:12
EDavidBurg	willimm: see you in a week. :)	Oct 24 03:12
schestowitz	http://insidesocal.com/click/2009/10/two-linux-video-editors-to-wat.html (Two Linux video editors to watch) "One of the reasons I haven't done almost any video editing is due to the relative lack of "mature" software for the job in Linux/Unix."	Oct 24 03:13
schestowitz	That's a FOSS video editor	Oct 24 03:13
willimm	schestowitz, I asked how your system's going.	Oct 24 03:14
schestowitz	On the high-end proprietary side, Linux has the best ones	Oct 24 03:14
schestowitz	willimm: no mono here	Oct 24 03:14
schestowitz	I use kde	Oct 24 03:14
willimm	I'll try KDE too.	Oct 24 03:14
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willimm	And also a GNOME without Mono.	Oct 24 03:15
willimm	BTW, KDE 3 or 4?	Oct 24 03:15
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schestowitz	kde4 in mandriva 2010	Oct 24 03:16
willimm	K.	Oct 24 03:16
schestowitz	http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/2010.0_Beta	Oct 24 03:16
schestowitz	gn	Oct 24 03:17
willimm	You too.	Oct 24 03:18
_goblin	3am here for me too...I think im off now...	Oct 24 03:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Im off to bed now....."Do unto others as they do unto Gnu"		Oct 24 03:26
*Sir_Konrad\|Away is now known as Sir_Konrad		Oct 24 03:31
Sir_Konrad	Ok, so I want to know from the adverage user: Why boycott Novell?	Oct 24 03:31
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Biden tells Cheney off http://ur1.ca/eb50		Oct 24 03:34
EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: because schestowitz says ti	Oct 24 03:43
EDavidBurg	s/ti/to	Oct 24 03:43
Sir_Konrad	...	Oct 24 03:43
DaemonFC	EDavidBurg, If schestowitz said to jump off a bridge?	Oct 24 03:44
Sir_Konrad	I'm about to move back to Linux, and I'm seriously considering openSUSE.	Oct 24 03:44
Sir_Konrad	But why should I not?	Oct 24 03:44
EDavidBurg	DaemonFC: I bring a parachute	Oct 24 03:44
EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: they will open your computer and steal your data and sell it to m$$$	Oct 24 03:45
Sir_Konrad	How do you know EDavidBurg?	Oct 24 03:45
Sir_Konrad	is there proof that it has happened to someone?	Oct 24 03:45
EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: I think it's time you adjusted your sarcasm detectometer. :)	Oct 24 03:45
Sir_Konrad	lol	Oct 24 03:46
Sir_Konrad	I really would like to know EDavidBurg.	Oct 24 03:46
EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: I'm not really the one to ask	Oct 24 03:46
Sir_Konrad	ok.	Oct 24 03:46
Sir_Konrad	I mean is there a problem with MS making a profit off of Linux?	Oct 24 03:47
EDavidBurg	after all, I'm just the friendly neighborhood troll...	Oct 24 03:47
Sir_Konrad	lol	Oct 24 03:47
EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: i'm sure DaemonFC or oiaohm can give you a nice long winded answer on the topic	Oct 24 03:49
DaemonFC	Sir_Konrad, None at all	Oct 24 03:49
DaemonFC	lots of companies profit off linux	Oct 24 03:49
Sir_Konrad	ok DaemonFC, so what's the problem?	Oct 24 03:50
DaemonFC	might be nice if they weren't promoting closed formats that are not Linux compatible and waving patents around at the same time	Oct 24 03:50
Sir_Konrad	DaemonFC, so you don't use MP3?	Oct 24 03:50
DaemonFC	Sir_Konrad, My portable plays FLAC and Vorbis	Oct 24 03:51
DaemonFC	'I no longer have a use for MP3, and MP3 was never tied to Windows anyway, so why are you using it as an example?	Oct 24 03:51
Sir_Konrad	DaemonFC, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "closed formats".	Oct 24 03:52
DaemonFC	In fact, Microsoft includes only minimal support for MPEG standards	Oct 24 03:52
Sir_Konrad	But I've never had a use for FLAC or Vorbis because it's a pain to play on OS X and Windows.	Oct 24 03:52
DaemonFC	their Windows Media formats are the only thing Windows supports well out of the box with Microsoft software	Oct 24 03:52
DaemonFC	Sir_Konrad, Windows Media, Silverlight, etc	Oct 24 03:52
Sir_Konrad	DaemonFC, true but MP3 and MPG work nicely.	Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFC	OOXML	Oct 24 03:53
Sir_Konrad	Ok.	Oct 24 03:53
Sir_Konrad	So do they attempt to promote that with openSUSE?	Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFC	document and multimedia storage formats should never be patentable anyway	Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFC	it's like trying to rip out the roads that everyone uses for free so you can put in your own toll road	Oct 24 03:53
DaemonFC	Sir_Konrad, To an extent	Oct 24 03:54
Sir_Konrad	how?	Oct 24 03:54
willimm	I have to admit, I once used "Open"Suse, but now, after seeing this website, I never use it anymore.	Oct 24 03:54
DaemonFC	Mono is not .Net, Moonlight won't play most Silverlight stuff	Oct 24 03:54
oiaohm	Sir_Konrad: MS avoids supporting any standard they don't control and when they do they normally release broken versions.	Oct 24 03:54
DaemonFC	they like to tell you they're MS compatible though	Oct 24 03:54
oiaohm	Particular actions MS has done causes people not to trust them Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:55
Sir_Konrad	Example oiaohm?	Oct 24 03:55
Sir_Konrad	Vista?	Oct 24 03:55
willimm	DaemonFC: well, at least Samba removes barriers to networking with Windblows, which is useful, cause I live on a windows network...	Oct 24 03:55
DaemonFC	willimm, Samba is not affiliated with Microsoft	Oct 24 03:56
willimm	DaemonFC: oops.	Oct 24 03:56
DaemonFC	the EU ordered Microsoft to open up their SMB and CIFS protocol information	Oct 24 03:56
willimm	I meant Samba is useful for networking.	Oct 24 03:56
willimm	see?	Oct 24 03:57
willimm	with windblows...	Oct 24 03:57
DaemonFC	willimm, Not Microsoft's intention	Oct 24 03:57
oiaohm	Starts with kerbous and ldap both used by samba to scale MS networks past NT limits Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:57
DaemonFC	just a lucky outcome	Oct 24 03:57
Sir_Konrad	...	Oct 24 03:57
oiaohm	MS remade those into ADS with broken protocal form of them Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:57
oiaohm	So locking Samba out the game.	Oct 24 03:57
Sir_Konrad	what? How will that affect the average Win/Lin user?	Oct 24 03:57
willimm	y.i.p.e	Oct 24 03:57
willimm	but at least we can network linux machines togher...	Oct 24 03:58
oiaohm	Massively Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:58
Sir_Konrad	both Win and Lin?	Oct 24 03:58
oiaohm	Windows clients not working correctly with Linux servers.	Oct 24 03:58
oiaohm	And Linux clients not working correctly with windows servers.	Oct 24 03:58
oiaohm	Nice network shatter.	Oct 24 03:58
oiaohm	Reason why it end up in the courts in the EU.	Oct 24 03:58
willimm	Then what will I do if I need to share my printers on my Windows network?	Oct 24 03:58
DaemonFC	http://www.pcworld.com/article/174264/does_father_of_linux_favor_windows_7.html	Oct 24 03:59
oiaohm	And MS lost of course Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, over half of the internet is made of Linux/UNIX servers and millions of Windows clients access them.	Oct 24 03:59
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EDavidBurg	Sir_Konrad: see? told you you'd get your answer.	Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konrad	<oiaohm> Reason why it end up in the courts in the EU. <-- sorry, didn't see it.	Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konrad	lol EDavidBurg. ;P	Oct 24 03:59
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, so if they lost then aren't we ok?	Oct 24 04:00
oiaohm	Sir_Konrad: before 2000 samba was taking over the SMB markets.	Oct 24 04:00
zer0c00l	n	Oct 24 04:00
willimm	i asked: how will get my printer hooked up on my desktop on Linux exposed to the Windows network?	Oct 24 04:00
oiaohm	The damage is done Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 04:00
oiaohm	Undoing the damage will take a lot of time.	Oct 24 04:00
Sir_Konrad	<oiaohm> Reason why it end up in the courts in the EU.	Oct 24 04:00
oiaohm	MS has done it with IE as well to get market share.	Oct 24 04:00
Sir_Konrad	That means it must be removed right?	Oct 24 04:00
oiaohm	LOL	Oct 24 04:01
Sir_Konrad	question: Removed from what? Windows Networking or IE?	Oct 24 04:01
willimm	did you answer me?	Oct 24 04:01
oiaohm	EU ruling is that MS must hand over 100 percent correct documentation Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 04:01
oiaohm	MS tried skiping country.	Oct 24 04:01
Sir_Konrad	<Sir_Konrad> question: Removed from what? Windows Networking or IE?	Oct 24 04:01
oiaohm	EU took it to USA courts got rule to allow purst in USA if they ran.	Oct 24 04:01
*willimm is wondering if you guys answered my question.		Oct 24 04:01
oiaohm	So MS now is complining.	Oct 24 04:02
oiaohm	Basically MS giving a chance with run from a court ruling so avoid having to follow it.	Oct 24 04:02
willimm	in case you forgot, here is my question again:	Oct 24 04:02
willimm	how will get my printer hooked up on my desktop on Linux exposed to the Windows network?	Oct 24 04:02
oiaohm	Samba is the most common way. willimm	Oct 24 04:02
willimm	To the Windows machines?	Oct 24 04:02
zer0c00l	willimm: yup	Oct 24 04:03
willimm	K.	Oct 24 04:03
willimm	Thanks.	Oct 24 04:03
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, the way I see it is that 85% of the world is using Windows and this is the first time I've heard this.	Oct 24 04:03
oiaohm	Then you can also try setting up Unix standard printing.	Oct 24 04:03
oiaohm	Warning like all open protocal that should be implement correctly on windows it has defects.	Oct 24 04:03
oiaohm	Cost of breaking protocals has been MS getting control Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 04:04
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, the reason they got control was because of marketing bake in 1990. Windows boxes were cheaper and almost identical to Mac ones.	Oct 24 04:05
Sir_Konrad	And had tons more software.	Oct 24 04:05
zer0c00l	Sir_Konrad: Nope;	Oct 24 04:05
Sir_Konrad	zer0c00l, yup.	Oct 24 04:06
oiaohm	What happen to amiga then Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konrad	same thing oiaohm.	Oct 24 04:06
oiaohm	It was cheeper	Oct 24 04:06
oiaohm	Than windows machines	Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konrad	There wern't THAT many networks back then.	Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, but they were not as universal.	Oct 24 04:06
Sir_Konrad	cheap isn't always "best".	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	Documents could not be shared.	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	No MS office and RTF standard was broken by MS.	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	How can you compete when the standards are broken Sir_Konrad	Oct 24 04:07
Sir_Konrad	No. I can open an RTF in Windows 3.1!	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	LOL	Oct 24 04:07
Sir_Konrad	what standards oiaohm?!	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	MS added non approved extentions in agreement with Apple.	Oct 24 04:07
oiaohm	So cutting everyone else out of RTF	Oct 24 04:08
oiaohm	This standard breaking has been going on for a very long time.	Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00l	Sir_Konrad: They always build "extensions" to keep every one out;	Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00l	Sir_Konrad: AFAIK , they did the same thing too HTML	Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00l	lol	Oct 24 04:08
Sir_Konrad	oiaohm, Amiga was bought by Gateway.	Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00l	Added their own extensions to HTML	Oct 24 04:08
zer0c00l	ROLF	Oct 24 04:08
Sir_Konrad	zer0c00l, All of those things are COMPLETELY universal!	Oct 24 04:09
Sir_Konrad	LOL	Oct 24 04:09
zer0c00l	yup, thats my they made it exclusive to msft	Oct 24 04:09
zer0c00l	see, they hate anything universal	Oct 24 04:09
Sir_Konrad	LOL	Oct 24 04:09
Sir_Konrad	hardly.	Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00l	Sir_Konrad: They might have did it with TCP/IP	Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00l	lol	Oct 24 04:10
Sir_Konrad	MS did release Office 2008 for Mac and they have UNIX programs on the site.	Oct 24 04:10
oiaohm	Even TCP/IP has been slighting altered.	Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00l	oiaohm: Oh o_O	Oct 24 04:10
zer0c00l	oiaohm: AFAIK , they are using BSD's TCP/IP stack	Oct 24 04:11
oiaohm	Catch every alteration they made end up bring down the system.	Oct 24 04:11
oiaohm	Thank god for MS incompetents.	Oct 24 04:12
zer0c00l	oiaohm: well said;	Oct 24 04:12
Diablo-D3	ms quit using that awhile ago, dude	Oct 24 04:12
zer0c00l	Diablo-D3: oh	Oct 24 04:12
oiaohm	Vista has a new stack.	Oct 24 04:12
oiaohm	And its broken many ways.	Oct 24 04:12
zer0c00l	oiaohm: my poor bro was not able to change his MAC address in vista;	Oct 24 04:13
zer0c00l	oiaohm: They changed the NDIS;	Oct 24 04:13
zer0c00l	oiaohm: Everything has become more restrictive ;	Oct 24 04:13
Diablo-D3	actually, didnt xp get that new stack?	Oct 24 04:13
Sir_Konrad	Well, I HATE Vista.	Oct 24 04:13
Sir_Konrad	I LOVE 7.	Oct 24 04:13
Sir_Konrad	and 98. ;P	Oct 24 04:13
oiaohm	XP still uses the BSD one you can run tests that prove it past question Diablo-D3	Oct 24 04:14
oiaohm	XP hides it behind the XP firewall.	Oct 24 04:14
zer0c00l	TCP/IP finger printing?	Oct 24 04:14
Diablo-D3	the lolwall	Oct 24 04:14
oiaohm	Tep	Oct 24 04:14
zer0c00l	Diablo-D3: LOLWALL	Oct 24 04:14
oiaohm	Yep	Oct 24 04:14
zer0c00l	Diablo-D3: port monitor	Oct 24 04:14
Diablo-D3	LOLWAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLL	Oct 24 04:15
oiaohm	TCP/IP finger printing to id attackers OS.	Oct 24 04:15
oiaohm	It also ID software releationships	Oct 24 04:15
zer0c00l	Most windows firewalls are port monitors;	Oct 24 04:15
oiaohm	XP is coded to block particular defective packets.	Oct 24 04:16
zer0c00l	yeah, they hate filesharing :P	Oct 24 04:16
oiaohm	Also the firewall is hard coded to block particular BSD signature packets.	Oct 24 04:17
zer0c00l	oiaohm: what if some one disables the firewall?	Oct 24 04:18
zer0c00l	oiaohm: Normally, it wont be that much difficult to adjust parameters like TCP window size,etc	Oct 24 04:18
zer0c00l	TCP/IP finger printing looks for these parameters to find the os;	Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00l	Linux's TCP/IP stack has its own tcp window size;	Oct 24 04:19
oiaohm	zer0c00l: disable firewall you can see it.	Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00l	oiaohm: oh?	Oct 24 04:19
zer0c00l	oiaohm: really?	Oct 24 04:20
oiaohm	Yes really.	Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00l	oiaohm: whats the software you use for fingerprinting ?	Oct 24 04:20
oiaohm	There is also what is called active finger printing.	Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00l	oiaohm: i use nmap;	Oct 24 04:20
oiaohm	Were you send packet to trigger particular flaws.	Oct 24 04:20
oiaohm	nmap is passive.	Oct 24 04:20
zer0c00l	oiaohm: yeah;	Oct 24 04:20
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zer0c00l	oiaohm: so, whats the tool you use?	Oct 24 04:21
oiaohm	Active is an attack class tool.	Oct 24 04:21
oiaohm	Since it causes like bluescreens of death or OS crashs as part of the ID process.	Oct 24 04:21
zer0c00l	There is a tool named "active" ?	Oct 24 04:22
oiaohm	No	Oct 24 04:22
oiaohm	The tool can be abused zer0c00l	Oct 24 04:22
zer0c00l	oiaohm: Every tools can be abused	Oct 24 04:22
oiaohm	Its a destructive test that shows you the releation ship.	Oct 24 04:22
oiaohm	Not at this level.	Oct 24 04:23
zer0c00l	oiaohm: what are the "active" tools you use?	Oct 24 04:23
oiaohm	They are a lists of known exploits with code to exploit it.	Oct 24 04:23
oiaohm	What is exploitable tells you the releation ships.	Oct 24 04:24
oiaohm	BSD stack MS uses is old with a lot of different know exploits as there base. Over the years those faults did not disappear even that they disappears from the BSD stack.	Oct 24 04:25
oiaohm	Yes you can even age the source they are using as a base by it defects.	Oct 24 04:25
*shreddar finished watching FLOSS Weekly		Oct 24 04:26
oiaohm	Passive finger printing depends on packets a OS will normally send. Active finger printing depends on how the OS reacts to the list of packets you send.	Oct 24 04:26
shreddar	It wasn't sooooo bad.	Oct 24 04:26
oiaohm	Active finger printing also can get you into legal trouble quicky.	Oct 24 04:26
zer0c00l	later	Oct 24 04:27
*zer0c00l has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")		Oct 24 04:27
oiaohm	Code and DNA identifying has a lot in common.	Oct 24 04:28
shreddar	Jono Bacon kinda made it look like a 2 sided argument. Except he mostly seemed to just reference the argument. Which was "is BN bad for open source?".	Oct 24 04:29
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Monthly maintenance power cut today :(		Oct 24 04:29
oiaohm	MS basicaly had to replace the network stack in Vista. They just could not patch it any more.	Oct 24 04:30
shreddar	He seems to have the point of view that because MS and Novell are companies anything they do is perfectly alright because it's the norm or it's what's expected.	Oct 24 04:31
oiaohm	That is a bit like saying slavery is all right because it was the norm.	Oct 24 04:36
shreddar	Well, I may be speculating here though.	Oct 24 04:37
shreddar	There are other philosophies besides doing right by the customer.	Oct 24 04:38
shreddar	Some like to see the companies and customers in a marriage type of relationship.	Oct 24 04:39
oiaohm	That is how it should work.	Oct 24 04:41
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fewa	"when you securitize you create a new assymetry of information"	Oct 24 04:43
shreddar	I guess it can be like a marriage but I tend relate it to a employee/employer relationship.	Oct 24 04:48
fewa	marriage?	Oct 24 04:49
fewa	only if its like 18th century marriage	Oct 24 04:50
fewa	and still thats a huge strech	Oct 24 04:50
fewa	oiaohm, slavery was only justified to the extent that it was neccicary to enable a economic model	Oct 24 04:50
fewa	and only if you accept that economic model	Oct 24 04:51
fewa	in People's History of the United States Zinn states hows racism in the US was created to enable the plantation economic model	Oct 24 04:51
fewa	that iniatially Africans were indentured servents, but that was unsustainable--it would lead to uprisings	Oct 24 04:52
fewa	seperating Caucasian and African second generations	Oct 24 04:52
shreddar	I guess the real problem is he (jono) wants to believe that commercial interests can and will help customer interests. But in practice that not the case. It's very natural for a company to want to be the only supplier of a product and not have any competition.	Oct 24 04:55
fewa	yes, there are two impediments to a sharing of interests: monopoly interests, and information asymmetry	Oct 24 04:56
oiaohm	shreddar: How does that explain cisco systems.	Oct 24 04:57
oiaohm	Cisco systems want to provide there customer with best product so will buy products from others to be rebranded as there own.	Oct 24 04:57
oiaohm	Also due to wanting development Cisco has not tried to destroy the likes of 3com or netgear and others that they source some of there gear from.	Oct 24 04:58
fewa	markets are only efficient for completely undifferentiated commodities	Oct 24 04:59
shreddar	Well, I guess that's good for Cisco. But what if other companies made the same product better?	Oct 24 05:01
oiaohm	Problem is lot of companies have the wrong model.	Oct 24 05:01
oiaohm	Cisco will buy it from who ever makes the product better so clients can trust the results they get shreddar	Oct 24 05:02
oiaohm	Its benifit for the makers of the product, Client and Cisco	Oct 24 05:02
fewa	cisco is expensive	Oct 24 05:02
shreddar	OK so basically it's a brand type of deal.	Oct 24 05:03
oiaohm	Yep	Oct 24 05:03
fewa	all the tech aware corps use juniper	Oct 24 05:03
fewa	they do make very sexy routers however http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5f/Cisco7600seriesrouter.jpg	Oct 24 05:04
oiaohm	shreddar: what do you have if you have bad brand.	Oct 24 05:04
oiaohm	That don't deliver results.	Oct 24 05:04
shreddar	No customers	Oct 24 05:04
oiaohm	No MS shreddar most customers hate them yet use them because they have no other option.	Oct 24 05:04
fewa	whoops, here is the sexy one http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Cisco-rs1.jpg	Oct 24 05:05
EDavidBurg	oiaohm: says who?	Oct 24 05:05
fewa	code name of HFR, or Huge Fucking Router	Oct 24 05:05
fewa	10Tbps total bandwidth	Oct 24 05:06
shreddar	In the end though you have to establish yourself in the market. Either with unique service or unique products otherwise any gain you make will be at the expense of competitors and vice versa.	Oct 24 05:09
fewa	augment the market	Oct 24 05:10
shreddar	The easiest way to do it is to have a monopoly over the product or service.	Oct 24 05:10
fewa	by providing something new	Oct 24 05:10
oiaohm	People forget MS was the cheapest OS out there.	Oct 24 05:11
oiaohm	As competition was reduced price went up.	Oct 24 05:12
fewa	that was the strategy from the beginning	Oct 24 05:12
fewa	its the propaganda machine that changes history	Oct 24 05:12
fewa	their strategy in the US was what it is now in china	Oct 24 05:13
fewa	make it free	Oct 24 05:13
fewa	encourage copying	Oct 24 05:13
oiaohm	That is documented fewa	Oct 24 05:14
EDavidBurg	fewa: right; i'm sure bill gates intended on taking over the world when he was sitting in an office in albuquerque in 1975 hacking for MITS	Oct 24 05:14
oiaohm	In MS paperwork about china and pirate software.	Oct 24 05:14
fewa	yes, and Bill Gates interview	Oct 24 05:14
oiaohm	EDavidBurg: I ask you a simple question is Bill Gates a Programmer.	Oct 24 05:14
EDavidBurg	oiaohm: yes	Oct 24 05:14
oiaohm	Ok sorry wrong.	Oct 24 05:14
oiaohm	Bill Gates is an accountant.	Oct 24 05:15
EDavidBurg	how is he not a programmer?	Oct 24 05:15
fewa	http://news.cnet.com/2100-1023-212942.html	Oct 24 05:15
fewa	"Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."-BillG	Oct 24 05:16
fewa	but that was also the strategy in the US	Oct 24 05:16
fewa	during DOS	Oct 24 05:16
oiaohm	He was the beta tester for the language basic by the coder who created basic the start point of MS EDavidBurg	Oct 24 05:16
oiaohm	Catch is the first programmer was not what you call a book keeper.	Oct 24 05:17
oiaohm	All companies need both someone to look after the books and someone todo the work.	Oct 24 05:17
EDavidBurg	oiaohm: paul allen and bill gates wrote Altair BASIC	Oct 24 05:18
oiaohm	paul allen is the coder.	Oct 24 05:18
oiaohm	bill gates is the tester.	Oct 24 05:18
oiaohm	Bill gates course was to be an accountant. Not programming. Little fact people like to forget about.	Oct 24 05:19
shreddar	What often happens with companies is that they go out of business because they couldn't keep up with competition. It's hard to make a successful and keep it successful. Things happen.	Oct 24 05:19
oiaohm	Depends if the competition is fair or not shreddar	Oct 24 05:20
oiaohm	Lot of companies go out of business due to product dumping on markets and other things.	Oct 24 05:20
EDavidBurg	you guys are really determined not to give Bill Gates credit for anything positive, huh?	Oct 24 05:20
shreddar	Either way lack of foresight on the part of the company or just lack of information can have and effect overnight.	Oct 24 05:21
shreddar	Business is hard and they try to make things as predictable as possible.	Oct 24 05:23
shreddar	Having no possible competition is the ultimate form of this for them.	Oct 24 05:25
oiaohm	No I do EDavidBurg bill gates did create some good basic examples in the alter basic manual fincal usage.	Oct 24 05:26
oiaohm	It also took a lot of skill to take a company from nothing to a huge company.	Oct 24 05:26
oiaohm	I just wish he had done it without doing some of the evils.	Oct 24 05:27
oiaohm	The thing that annoys me is people like Paul allen who should have been known by everyone are not because the credit was miss directed.	Oct 24 05:28
oiaohm	Remember Paul allen could not created a simple program language without someone to tell him when he had made stuff too complex for normal people.	Oct 24 05:30
oiaohm	A tester is quite an important role to producing good product.	Oct 24 05:30
oiaohm	I really do thing is funny that Bill gates had to be made appear to be a programmer instead of a tester because a tester is a too lowly thing to be.	Oct 24 05:34
shreddar	I just understand why they gravitate towards anti-consumer practices. I won't excuse them for it though.	Oct 24 05:35
shreddar	It's just everyone should alway pay close attention to companies if they think that they will not go anti-consumer because it's quite easy to think that way in business.	Oct 24 05:37
oiaohm	Being a non coder also makes it worse.	Oct 24 05:37
oiaohm	Since a non coder cannot depend on there skills or creatively to dig there way out.	Oct 24 05:37
oiaohm	So only option is to control the market.	Oct 24 05:37
oiaohm	understanding what Gates was explains why particular things were done.	Oct 24 05:38
oiaohm	Best motivator of all Fear.	Oct 24 05:38
shreddar	I think the issue with companies is the issues with the human race. That is security vs love.	Oct 24 05:45
oiaohm	And lies to hide the truth shreddar	Oct 24 05:46
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shreddar	I still can't grasp the issues with Jono but he seems to think that Free Software purists are just anti-corporations but it's more to do with being pro freedom.	Oct 24 05:51
shreddar	If corporations are trying to take away some of are freedoms then naturally we are against it.	Oct 24 05:54
oiaohm	that is the MS idea.	Oct 24 05:54
oiaohm	MS depends on selling people binary blobs.	Oct 24 05:54
oiaohm	Its more they are so use to the MS model they cannot wrap there mind around how the other models operate	Oct 24 05:55
oiaohm	Being very pro business	Oct 24 05:55
oiaohm	The other models are quite simple. If you use something and don't support it don't depend on it working for you long term.	Oct 24 05:56
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fewa	<shreddar> Free Software purists are just anti-corporations but it's more to do with being pro freedom.	Oct 24 06:07
fewa	agreed	Oct 24 06:07
fewa	people are not against corporations because of some abstract philosophy	Oct 24 06:08
fewa	they are against corporations when those corporations stand in their way, or hold society back	Oct 24 06:08
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oiaohm	Really its hard to be anti corporation when you wake up that most Open Source/Free software events are funded by companies.	Oct 24 06:12
fewa	exactly	Oct 24 06:12
fewa	its the type of corporation	Oct 24 06:12
fewa	there is no rule that corporations cannot represent the interests of their employees or other stakeholders	Oct 24 06:13
shreddar	I think Jono's issue goes all the old argument that if creators didn't have this control over the market they'd be less inclined to put out valuable works. But the truth is there are no assurances in business even with patent, copyright, and trademarks. There's is always the possibility someone will compete with you and win or even that you loose before you even step to the plate.	Oct 24 06:13
oiaohm	Worse shreddar lock you out.	Oct 24 06:13
fewa	software patent monopolies are evil and anti-competition	Oct 24 06:14
oiaohm	Lot of open source world items are too expensive for any 1 company to make.	Oct 24 06:14
oiaohm	Like a OS with as much hardware support as Linux Kernel has.	Oct 24 06:14
oiaohm	No single company world wide could afford to make i.	Oct 24 06:15
oiaohm	it.	Oct 24 06:15
oiaohm	At some point costs have to be shared. Even MS is aware of this why there have stable binary driver interface. Without it MS could not afford to make windows.	Oct 24 06:16
fewa	yep	Oct 24 06:18
fewa	"evangalism is war" mentions this	Oct 24 06:18
oiaohm	People also forget before Linux. BSD was used to share tech between Unix's.	Oct 24 06:18
fewa	and X11	Oct 24 06:18
oiaohm	Without BSD lot of the Unix's could not have existed just on simple cost factors.	Oct 24 06:18
fewa	Windwos also used lots of BSD	Oct 24 06:19
oiaohm	Basically open source is important.	Oct 24 06:19
fewa	problem with BSD was it was too open	Oct 24 06:19
fewa	why it couldn't become Linux	Oct 24 06:19
fewa	lets companies create propritary forks, taking away others freedoms	Oct 24 06:20
oiaohm	I always put up a funny one lets remove everything from this room that would not exist without open source.	Oct 24 06:21
oiaohm	The results are quite supprising to most people.	Oct 24 06:21
fewa	the internet	Oct 24 06:22
oiaohm	TV fewa	Oct 24 06:22
fewa	there are few non open source TCP/IP implamentations	Oct 24 06:22
oiaohm	Even lot of radio depends on open source in places.	Oct 24 06:22
fewa	and they were all made my incumbent corporations	Oct 24 06:23
fewa	not to mention apache	Oct 24 06:23
fewa	its like Nader	Oct 24 06:23
oiaohm	The lot of production systems also run on Linux and BSD to build cars.	Oct 24 06:23
fewa	people don't see all the things they got from his work	Oct 24 06:23
oiaohm	Basically once you take away everything that has open source somewhere in its production you are lucky if the room is still there.	Oct 24 06:24
fewa	http://www.votenader.org/about/achievements/	Oct 24 06:24
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fewa	# Clean Air Act	Oct 24 06:24
fewa	# Clean Water Act	Oct 24 06:24
fewa	etc	Oct 24 06:24
oiaohm	Most of those should be slighly reword.	Oct 24 06:25
oiaohm	Acceptabley Clean Air Act	Oct 24 06:25
fewa	I believe it was landmark internationally	Oct 24 06:25
fewa	at the time	Oct 24 06:25
oiaohm	And acceptable by who standard.	Oct 24 06:26
fewa	so maybe for today it is "acceptabley"	Oct 24 06:26
fewa	but not when passed	Oct 24 06:26
fewa	there was some landmarks environment legislation passed	Oct 24 06:26
oiaohm	Scary things are happening here.	Oct 24 06:26
fewa	Airbags, Seatbelts	Oct 24 06:26
oiaohm	Power stations are looking to convert over to coal gas.	Oct 24 06:26
fewa	#	Oct 24 06:27
fewa	# Occupational Safety and Health Act (OSHA)	Oct 24 06:27
fewa	also landmark	Oct 24 06:27
oiaohm	Including the insane of burning the coal underground to product gas to run power station.	Oct 24 06:27
fewa	the main industry criticised: autos	Oct 24 06:29
fewa	never learned, however	Oct 24 06:29
fewa	greed, greed, greed	Oct 24 06:29
oiaohm	Autos are not that great on effectiveness.	Oct 24 06:30
fewa	in the 70s they increased hugely on efficiency	Oct 24 06:31
fewa	and then completely plateued with Reagen	Oct 24 06:31
fewa	who was preoccupied with dismantling and reversing all progress	Oct 24 06:31
oiaohm	Still compared to large scale coal gas not that effective.	Oct 24 06:31
fewa	the US could we on all electric/plug in hybrid	Oct 24 06:31
oiaohm	Does not work that great.	Oct 24 06:32
fewa	if it wasn't for collusive and lobbying action by the auto companies	Oct 24 06:32
oiaohm	Weight of batteries under mins the effectiveness.	Oct 24 06:32
fewa	the technology existed in the late 70s	Oct 24 06:32
*shreddar is going to get ready for sleep.		Oct 24 06:32
fewa	oiaohm, nope	Oct 24 06:32
shreddar	Bye ya'll.	Oct 24 06:32
oiaohm	Supper caps are being used on some busses.	Oct 24 06:32
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fewa	batteries much lighter than highly enefficient engine	Oct 24 06:33
oiaohm	Due to less weight.	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	watch "who killed the electric car"	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	not the greatest movie	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	but still	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	electric cars are ready	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	and have been	Oct 24 06:33
oiaohm	So a 8 cildner that weights 4 kg's electric can beat.	Oct 24 06:33
oiaohm	I don't think so.	Oct 24 06:33
fewa	the combuston engine is 30% efficient	Oct 24 06:34
oiaohm	Cermic engine blocks	Oct 24 06:34
fewa	its just apocryphal	Oct 24 06:34
fewa	and it costs a tremendous amount to repair all these engines	Oct 24 06:34
oiaohm	30 is in iron based.	Oct 24 06:34
fewa	which would disappear overnight with electric cars	Oct 24 06:34
oiaohm	Note I did not say what the 8 cil uses.	Oct 24 06:35
oiaohm	AIR instead of electic	Oct 24 06:35
oiaohm	sneaky devil engine. Part air part fuel and able to swap between on need.	Oct 24 06:36
fewa	AIR is much lower energy density than electric	Oct 24 06:36
fewa	the EV1 had 110-160 miles range	Oct 24 06:37
fewa	as a fully electric car	Oct 24 06:37
fewa	density of batteries is not a problem	Oct 24 06:38
fewa	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries	Oct 24 06:38
oiaohm	http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4251491.html I don't see what such a short range is impressive fewa.	Oct 24 06:39
fewa	its long enough	Oct 24 06:39
fewa	oiaohm, so is it liquid air?	Oct 24 06:40
fewa	aka liquid nitrogen?	Oct 24 06:40
oiaohm	Basically.	Oct 24 06:40
fewa	wonder what the denity is	Oct 24 06:40
fewa	*energy density	Oct 24 06:40
fewa	also that range is probably highly unrealistic	Oct 24 06:41
fewa	totally flat	Oct 24 06:41
fewa	and a air power car probably is unable to put braking energy back into storage	Oct 24 06:41
oiaohm	they can fewa	Oct 24 06:41
fewa	compression breaking :P	Oct 24 06:41
oiaohm	Yep good old well tested compression breaking.	Oct 24 06:42
fewa	will need to change some munipalities laws	Oct 24 06:42
fewa	which ban it	Oct 24 06:42
oiaohm	Over all AIR is simpler.	Oct 24 06:42
oiaohm	Major headaches is the compression tanks.	Oct 24 06:42
fewa	how do you change it up?	Oct 24 06:43
fewa	get your own compressor?	Oct 24 06:43
oiaohm	Can be fewa	Oct 24 06:43
fewa	wonder what its DOT range would be	Oct 24 06:43
oiaohm	You can use items like stirling engines to run compressors as well.	Oct 24 06:43
fewa	yes cylendrical compressors	Oct 24 06:44
fewa	those are cool	Oct 24 06:44
fewa	continuous compression	Oct 24 06:44
oiaohm	The major advantage of air is you don't have to take a either or method.	Oct 24 06:45
fewa	how does the leverage work on powering the axels?	Oct 24 06:45
oiaohm	It is possible to design a block to run on both air and normal fuel. Just they are not cheep to make ie metal is out.	Oct 24 06:45
fewa	meh	Oct 24 06:45
fewa	should be seperate	Oct 24 06:45
oiaohm	Both fuel and air need same kinds of things.	Oct 24 06:46
fewa	not really	Oct 24 06:46
oiaohm	A leak free chamber.	Oct 24 06:46
fewa	they are totally differnt	Oct 24 06:46
fewa	air needs no compression stage	Oct 24 06:47
fewa	air engine seems much easier	Oct 24 06:47
fewa	and can be completely free of vibration and noise	Oct 24 06:47
oiaohm	for regenation breaking on engine compression stage is useful to air.	Oct 24 06:47
oiaohm	There are a lot of overlap fewa when you try to make air engine do everything to be max effective.	Oct 24 06:48
fewa	I dont see it	Oct 24 06:49
fewa	seems totally differnt	Oct 24 06:49
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fewa	air is massively simpler	Oct 24 06:49
fewa	of course you still need battery	Oct 24 06:49
fewa	for lights, etc	Oct 24 06:49
oiaohm	Not realy fewa	Oct 24 06:49
oiaohm	You only really need a large cap.	Oct 24 06:49
fewa	dont see why you would want to generate electricity on board	Oct 24 06:49
oiaohm	Really you have to fewa	Oct 24 06:50
oiaohm	You don't want to be driving at night without lights.	Oct 24 06:50
oiaohm	Just because the battery is flat and you have air left.	Oct 24 06:50
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fewa	you dont want to be driving and run out of air	Oct 24 06:52
fewa	meh, that up to debate	Oct 24 06:52
fewa	with fast charging batteries like are available however, you could have both	Oct 24 06:52
oiaohm	If car is out of air it has to stay put.	Oct 24 06:52
fewa	and have something very simpler	Oct 24 06:52
oiaohm	Super cap charges simpler.	Oct 24 06:52
fewa	very simply	Oct 24 06:52
fewa	*simple	Oct 24 06:52
oiaohm	and lasts better than batteries	Oct 24 06:53
oiaohm	And lighter.	Oct 24 06:53
oiaohm	Basically why carry more than what you have to. You need a larger batter in a car because you need it to start it.	Oct 24 06:53
oiaohm	People forget some early cars were without a battery as well.	Oct 24 06:54
fewa	yi know that	Oct 24 06:54
fewa	battery is for starting	Oct 24 06:54
oiaohm	AIR don't need power other than the air to start.	Oct 24 06:54
fewa	no shit	Oct 24 06:55
fewa	it never really "starts" either	Oct 24 06:55
fewa	it just goes	Oct 24 06:55
oiaohm	Unless someone is stupid in the design.	Oct 24 06:55
fewa	if its a well designed engine	Oct 24 06:55
fewa	still you havn't answed, what types of engines?	Oct 24 06:55
oiaohm	There are 4 different types for air.	Oct 24 06:56
oiaohm	Turbine based that are not that great. piston based that are close to current day fuel. Rotray engines and I cannot remember the 4 that is is a rotray but really strange.	Oct 24 06:57
fewa	rotary makes most sense	Oct 24 06:57
fewa	or a reverse continuous compression engine	Oct 24 06:57
fewa	no vibration	Oct 24 06:57
fewa	i also asked this earlier	Oct 24 06:58
fewa	how do you "shift"	Oct 24 06:58
fewa	or do you not?	Oct 24 06:58
fewa	do you use a regular transmission?	Oct 24 06:58
oiaohm	Like a regular transmission. Weight again.	Oct 24 06:59
fewa	still much lighter	Oct 24 06:59
oiaohm	current regular transmissions are very heavy due to what they are constructed from.	Oct 24 06:59
fewa	you could make a very light air automobile	Oct 24 06:59
oiaohm	And you can even get creative with the expeld air using it to cool the transmission.	Oct 24 07:00
oiaohm	Of course that helps with size a bit.	Oct 24 07:01
fewa	also, how do you deal with the cooling?	Oct 24 07:01
fewa	and how do you deal with heating---a problem no eternal combustion engine car has	Oct 24 07:01
fewa	keeping the cabin warm	Oct 24 07:01
fewa	easy to keep it cool	Oct 24 07:01
oiaohm	Aircon is used for cooling most cars anyhow.	Oct 24 07:02
fewa	oiaohm, no	Oct 24 07:02
fewa	the cylandar would be very cold	Oct 24 07:02
oiaohm	And if tanks contain normal air.	Oct 24 07:02
fewa	being decompressed	Oct 24 07:02
fewa	no need for aircon	Oct 24 07:02
oiaohm	You can even avoid in cab fan.	Oct 24 07:02
oiaohm	and pulling lots of air from out side at times.	Oct 24 07:02
oiaohm	Really air cars can be really nice on people in them if they are done right.	Oct 24 07:03
fewa	I want one	Oct 24 07:03
oiaohm	The air is a lot of usable than batteries.	Oct 24 07:03
oiaohm	Even if it batteries can do higher density.	Oct 24 07:03
fewa	?	Oct 24 07:05
oiaohm	Heating is the tricky bit.	Oct 24 07:05
fewa	if the density is the same electric would be more efficient	Oct 24 07:05
fewa	and the engines highly developed	Oct 24 07:05
fewa	and charging easier and more available	Oct 24 07:05
oiaohm	Some heat can be sourced out of transmission and other frituion areas.	Oct 24 07:06
oiaohm	You can also use heat pipe systems to aquire so much heat from out side.	Oct 24 07:06
fewa	ouw site?	Oct 24 07:06
fewa	out side is cold	Oct 24 07:06
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oiaohm	Heat pipe systems can do upto 10 degree diff fewa	Oct 24 07:07
fewa	heat transfer	Oct 24 07:07
oiaohm	Yes that does help a little.	Oct 24 07:07
fewa	reverse aircon	Oct 24 07:07
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oiaohm	Basically reverse aircon.	Oct 24 07:07
DaemonFC	Carly Fiorina, the idiot that ruined HP, is trying to become a US senator from California	Oct 24 07:08
DaemonFC	http://www.mercurynews.com/california/ci_13627906	Oct 24 07:08
oiaohm	For areas like north sections of australia heating car is mostly not a issue fewa	Oct 24 07:08
oiaohm	cooling is the major heat ache that air by its nature deals with.	Oct 24 07:08
oiaohm	Note electric don't help you heat or cool.	Oct 24 07:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] NM Gov. Bill Richardson admits #Honduras #coup , and calling for normalization of #Cuba #USA relations on CSPAN3 http://ur1.ca/e7xr		Oct 24 07:11
fewa	oiaohm, electric generates some heat	Oct 24 07:11
fewa	but yes	Oct 24 07:11
fewa	its mainly just a new issue	Oct 24 07:11
fewa	as eternal combustion engine is so inefficient it was never a prob	Oct 24 07:11
oiaohm	AIR also gets lighter the lower its charge is as well fewa	Oct 24 07:12
fewa	same with fossil fuels	Oct 24 07:12
oiaohm	This helps with range.	Oct 24 07:12
fewa	thats a big issue on airplanes	Oct 24 07:12
fewa	you can land on a shorter runway with low tanks than full ones	Oct 24 07:12
oiaohm	if it was cheep to make fuel cells electric would not have big difference here.	Oct 24 07:13
oiaohm	Also recharging fuel cells is not simple as doing compression for air.	Oct 24 07:13
oiaohm	Basically electric is a big complex mess.	Oct 24 07:13
fewa	"fuel cells" is bullshit	Oct 24 07:14
fewa	wait ur talking compressed air?	Oct 24 07:14
oiaohm	I was talking about getting electric the same weight reductiing advantage of air and fossil fuels fewa	Oct 24 07:15
oiaohm	I know of no other way other than fuel cells to give electric that fewa	Oct 24 07:15
fewa	hydrogen is bullshit	Oct 24 07:16
fewa	most overhyped non-existant technology ever	Oct 24 07:16
fewa	and utterly worthless	Oct 24 07:16
oiaohm	Hydrogen tech exists.	Oct 24 07:17
oiaohm	There are some normal engines that can run on it.	Oct 24 07:17
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fewa	how do you make the hydrogen?	Oct 24 07:17
oiaohm	Again hydrogen has the opps it leaks it just blow the crap out of stuff problem.	Oct 24 07:17
fewa	How do you compress it?	Oct 24 07:18
fewa	how do make an engine that is at all efficient for a reasonable amount of money?	Oct 24 07:18
fewa	its a joke	Oct 24 07:18
fewa	its so far from being doable	Oct 24 07:18
fewa	from being implamented	Oct 24 07:18
oiaohm	Its more the big bang problem.	Oct 24 07:18
fewa	and _its not a source of energy_	Oct 24 07:18
oiaohm	Lot of high pressure air tank design for the air car coming are from the hydrogen car experments.	Oct 24 07:19
fewa	which is what the human race actually needs	Oct 24 07:19
oiaohm	Please note most ended scaryly	Oct 24 07:19
oiaohm	Opps hydrgon leak then spark you don't want to be near it.	Oct 24 07:19
oiaohm	Basically we could build a hydrogen car any time we liked.	Oct 24 07:20
oiaohm	Thinking you can use a normal engine block and all.	Oct 24 07:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] John McCain Wants to #censor the Internet http://ur1.ca/ebgc pushes telecom #AT&T #Verizon talking points #NetNeutrality		Oct 24 07:21
oiaohm	But getting road approval with the big bang problem is not going to happen fewa.	Oct 24 07:21
oiaohm	It makes natural gas look safe.	Oct 24 07:21
fewa	give it up	Oct 24 07:21
fewa	it will never happen	Oct 24 07:22
fewa	its 40 years away until 40 years from today	Oct 24 07:22
oiaohm	that is what started the experments on these air cars.	Oct 24 07:22
oiaohm	Air don't exploide if it leaks.	Oct 24 07:22
oiaohm	As long as the tank does not explode you home safe and sound.	Oct 24 07:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] John McCain Wants to #censor the Internet http://ur1.ca/ebgc pushes telecom #AT&T #Verizon talking points #NetNeutrality #hr3458 is the fix		Oct 24 07:23
oiaohm	With the air cars we do have to thank the ones expermenting with hydrogen for design such great high pressure tanks.	Oct 24 07:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @kardain @senjohnmccain #NetNeutrality will not stifle, but hold ISPs accountable for unfair business practices #hr3458		Oct 24 07:26
oiaohm	You are also aware of these fuel cells fewa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_methanol_fuel_cell That could be used as a power source for electic problem is there is no simple way to recharge them.	Oct 24 07:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @bigshow @senjohnmccain you don't understand computers but are opposing #NetNeutrality while taking money from telecoms? fix with #hr1826		Oct 24 07:30
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-ethanol_fuel_cell And its releation fewa. Have used these for server room power supplies. Since you can fuel them up while they are running.	Oct 24 07:31
fewa	why not just use existing NiMH and LiOn batteries?	Oct 24 07:31
oiaohm	Recharge time fewa	Oct 24 07:31
oiaohm	And space.	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	recharge time is very good	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	and going down quick	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	can be reduced to 5 minutes	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	with limit being amps in houses	Oct 24 07:32
oiaohm	Not as fast as filling a tank up.	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	people charge at home	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	you cant fill up your tank at home	Oct 24 07:32
fewa	you just plug in when you get home	Oct 24 07:33
fewa	that is pretty easy	Oct 24 07:33
fewa	and never go to a gas station again	Oct 24 07:33
oiaohm	Air systems can have a high pressure fill tank at home.	Oct 24 07:33
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fewa	yes	Oct 24 07:33
fewa	still havn't seen engines	Oct 24 07:33
fewa	or weather then can recharge with braking	Oct 24 07:34
fewa	but could happen	Oct 24 07:34
fewa	still seems like woorse range and energy density	Oct 24 07:34
fewa	and i wonder about efficiency of recharging	Oct 24 07:34
fewa	electric is here now	Oct 24 07:35
oiaohm	http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/27/indian-air-powered-city-cat-car-prepares-for-production-run/ That is a piston type.	Oct 24 07:35
oiaohm	There are quite a few air class fewa	Oct 24 07:35
oiaohm	http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm These are used inside food areas were normal fuel cannot be used without risking containation. Its the odd rottray I was thinking of fewa	Oct 24 07:37
fewa	but yeah air seems cool	Oct 24 07:38
fewa	I want one	Oct 24 07:38
oiaohm	Air is also more pratical you think of the matterials you need to make it as well fewa	Oct 24 07:40
oiaohm	You don't need toxic chemicals and other nastys.	Oct 24 07:41
fewa	LiOn is pretty good, but yes	Oct 24 07:43
oiaohm	Lot of focus is on electric fewa. People are over looking the most clean AIR.	Oct 24 07:43
oiaohm	If you go to india you can buy a air car.	Oct 24 07:44
oiaohm	Yes it sux at times to be in a so called developed country.	Oct 24 07:44
fewa	the US is way behind	Oct 24 07:44
fewa	and based on cars	Oct 24 07:44
fewa	the cooptation is criminal	Oct 24 07:45
oiaohm	What sux more is the air engine designed here in australian cannot get funding to be developed into a car.	Oct 24 07:46
oiaohm	You don't have the pain of having the tech sitting down the road and not able to use it.	Oct 24 07:47
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oiaohm	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq8aZVLpf-c Here is the australian one with video so you can see inside the engine fewa.	Oct 24 07:50
fewa	oh cool	Oct 24 07:51
fewa	how much?	Oct 24 07:51
fewa	range? cost? speed?	Oct 24 07:51
fewa	http://www.engineair.com.au/	Oct 24 07:52
fewa	thats pretty cool	Oct 24 07:52
fewa	I want it :P	Oct 24 07:54
oiaohm	Really in food markets it should really be the only engine.	Oct 24 07:55
fewa	what are those ones in airports?	Oct 24 07:56
oiaohm	I don't really want petrol or gas fumes in my food.	Oct 24 07:56
fewa	must be electric	Oct 24 07:56
oiaohm	Here mixture of both.	Oct 24 07:56
oiaohm	USA most likely 100 percent electric.	Oct 24 07:56
oiaohm	I don't know of anyone over there doing air engines in volume.	Oct 24 07:56
oiaohm	Big thing here in Australia air car is used some place in airports were sparks could be an issue. Air what spark.	Oct 24 08:01
fewa	purely mechanical controls?	Oct 24 08:10
fewa	and mechanical power steering?	Oct 24 08:11
oiaohm	yes australian air engine can be done with those.	Oct 24 08:13
oiaohm	To be correct air assisted steering can be done.	Oct 24 08:13
oiaohm	But a lot of those small vechines don't need power stearing. Driver just has to be a little stronger.	Oct 24 08:15
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #OpenSource America's Operating System It's not just a good idea, it's the #law : History of open source law http://ur1.ca/ebj1 @carlmalamud		Oct 24 08:20
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Woken at 07:30 by @ceimon who sorted us out with a new room. Now have a room with wifi! #lrl2009		Oct 24 08:23
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_goblin	Good morning all...	Oct 24 09:43
schestowitz	Hey	Oct 24 09:43
_goblin	Edavidburg - Been up to his old tricks. He is trying to trap people here.	Oct 24 09:43
_goblin	http://linsux.org/index.php?topic=1179.0;wap2	Oct 24 09:43
schestowitz	Oh no	Oct 24 09:43
schestowitz	Don't link to that site	Oct 24 09:43
schestowitz	You encourage them.. BOTH of them	Oct 24 09:44
_goblin	oops...	Oct 24 09:44
schestowitz	LOL Core OpenSUSE guy installs Ubuntu http://www.nermal.org/blog/installing-ubuntu-910-from-a-newcomers-perspective/	Oct 24 09:44
_goblin	Did you see the BBC coverage of Ubuntu?	Oct 24 09:45
schestowitz	I haven't, no.	Oct 24 09:46
schestowitz	Thompson seems like the only person there who might cover it properly	Oct 24 09:47
_goblin	they made a balls up of it...	Oct 24 09:48
schestowitz	Most people there (beeb) are Windows-only users who would recite what they read somewhere about this ubunut lunix thing	Oct 24 09:48
_goblin	"here’s something called ‘Ubuntu’ which is launched next week. It’s a whole sort of little community of enthusiasts building operating systems for absolutely nothing and trying to persuade us that we don’t need to be in with the big boys but actually most computer users frankly they don’t want to bother with that sort of stuff they want something that’s there…"	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	"It's all command line!!!"	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	"Good for servers..."	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	_goblin: see what I mean?	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	They get it wrong	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	It's not built by volunteers	Oct 24 09:49
_goblin	its rich when the MS faithful mention the CLI....MS have just spent time revamping theirs into Powershell...	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	It's built by companies to a great extent	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	Google, IBM, HP......	Oct 24 09:49
schestowitz	ANd it's NOT for absolutely free	Oct 24 09:50
schestowitz	It's free as in FREEDOM	Oct 24 09:50
_goblin	I don't think they can grasp that concept.	Oct 24 09:50
schestowitz	People can rightly charge a fee for their distro. Some do.	Oct 24 09:50
schestowitz	MEPIS..	Oct 24 09:50
_goblin	I heard a nasty rumour that MS try charging for their OS.....what a cheek.	Oct 24 09:50
_goblin	;)	Oct 24 09:50
schestowitz	They try to put ads in it	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	Apple too	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	Cause pay-as-you-go (PAYG) won't work	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	Apple is now patenting it	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	Under Steve Jobs' name	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	MS patented OS subscription	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	Red hat was not happy	Oct 24 09:51
_goblin	Roy, I never did manage to get up to Manchester this year....you visiting London anytime soon?	Oct 24 09:51
schestowitz	I haven't in a while	Oct 24 09:54
schestowitz	As in years	Oct 24 09:54
schestowitz	I gave some talks there back then	Oct 24 09:54
schestowitz	BTW, Vista 7 launch bombed	Oct 24 09:55
schestowitz	They messed it all up. Hype got botched	Oct 24 09:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Voldemort sells more copies of Windows 7 than deathly hallows (allegedly) http://tinyurl.com/yjuvxsb how many horcrux's does Ballmer have?		Oct 24 09:56
schestowitz	And their party is now over for good. Very little press coverage now, which is good.	Oct 24 09:56
schestowitz	Ha	Oct 24 09:56
schestowitz	You beat me to it in Twitter	Oct 24 09:56
_goblin	;)	Oct 24 09:56
schestowitz	Wait..	Oct 24 09:56
schestowitz	Windows 7 Launch Parties Fizzle http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/174237/windows_7_launch_parties_fizzle.html	Oct 24 09:56
_goblin	check out my comparison pictures...Since MS want to mention Harry Potter, I found a Ballmer/Voldemort similarity.	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	From: George Orwell <nobody@mixmaster.it>	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	Despite positive spinning by Microsoft the Vista 7 launch turned into	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	one utter failure. The 'Windows 7 Launch Parties' were almost	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	universally mocked and ridiculed by the press and the general public.	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	The so-called 'Windows 7 Is The Best Sold Windows Ever' campaign turned	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	out to be nothing more than channel-pushing, worse even than when Vista	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	was launched, with retailers being prodded by huge discounts, which	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	will disappear after launch. NO ONE is actually buying Vista 7. Sure,	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	some clueless sod may buy some computer where the shit is pre-installed	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	but that's about it. PC sales are NOT going to take off because	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	Microsoft updates a few icons in Vista, smacked a new label on it and	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	bribed a few journalist to write about it being a ' huge improvement'	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	compared to its predecessor. Businesses aren't even contemplating	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	upgrading their PC hardware and consumers are more concerned with	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	keeping their jobs and being able to pay their mortgages.	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	The only real growth, especially in this recession, lies in dirt-cheap	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	netbooks and Smartbooks, which is where M$ will meet its Nemesis:	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	Chrome OS (Linux) on ARM.	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	====	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	end quote	Oct 24 09:57
schestowitz	_goblin: I see a Fester	Oct 24 09:58
schestowitz	SUSE people speak Mono: http://www.jprl.com/Blog/archive/development/mono/MonoTouch/2009/Oct-21.html	Oct 24 10:00
schestowitz	Not so separate	Oct 24 10:01
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] RT: @SecurityTube: [Video] History of Linux Documentary http://bit.ly/9UnM5		Oct 24 10:04
schestowitz	oh, it's a very good film	Oct 24 10:05
schestowitz	Revolution OS also	Oct 24 10:05
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schestowitz	Hehe.	Oct 24 10:06
schestowitz	http://jeffreystedfast.blogspot.com/2009/10/looking-back-10-years-of-ximian.html	Oct 24 10:06
schestowitz	Now he's promoting the anti-BN site in Twitter	Oct 24 10:06
schestowitz	Jeff Stedfast	Oct 24 10:06
schestowitz	and putting my name ( @schestowitz ) in there	Oct 24 10:07
schestowitz	I'm starting to think that Novell employees who work on Mono don't love me. Same with the Banshee guy/s...	Oct 24 10:07
schestowitz	:-)	Oct 24 10:07
zer0c00l	schestowitz: Seems like you earned most of those mono guys hatred =P	Oct 24 10:08
schestowitz	OpenSUSE guy on twitter: http://www.mindby.com/2009/10/Finding-the-Value-in-Twitter	Oct 24 10:10
schestowitz	zer0c00l: I wasn't trying	Oct 24 10:10
schestowitz	I write about Mono	Oct 24 10:10
schestowitz	But there happen to be people behind the programs	Oct 24 10:10
schestowitz	And Mono is the issue, not the people	Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz	It's easier to criticise proprietary s/w	Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz	Cause people who write it have no real name (embedded in the program along with company logo)	Oct 24 10:11
zer0c00l	yeah	Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz	They are just paid to work as code monkeys in companies like MSFT. Novell is different, so people are attacked to their code.	Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz	*attached	Oct 24 10:11
schestowitz	I can either ignore the problem (Mono)(	Oct 24 10:12
schestowitz	Or write about it, in which case people are unfortunately hurt ("you say my baby ain't pretty!")	Oct 24 10:12
zer0c00l	;)	Oct 24 10:13
mutxx	you also write about the people behind mono Roy.	Oct 24 10:20
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schestowitz	Mostly managers who drive the strategy	Oct 24 10:28
schestowitz	They have the power to change course and react to criticism (e.g. FSF)	Oct 24 10:29
mutxx	so atleast you admit to personal attacks. ok	Oct 24 10:29
mutxx	so if you do attack people personally as you do, are you in the least bit surprised when people attack you back in return ?	Oct 24 10:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Apparently <- is a small screen.		Oct 24 10:33
_goblin	hi mutxx, the best of British to you...	Oct 24 10:36
mutxx	im not british	Oct 24 10:36
_goblin	no, its a saying.	Oct 24 10:36
mutxx	I know	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	then why say that.	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	are you on a mission to question what you already know?	Oct 24 10:37
mutxx	I could say the same thing :)	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	so you don't understand the term...	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	?	Oct 24 10:37
mutxx	No,	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	ah	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	you dont.	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	I'll explain.	Oct 24 10:37
_goblin	if you want	Oct 24 10:37
mutxx	dont bother	Oct 24 10:38
_goblin	lol	Oct 24 10:38
_goblin	so how are you this morning Mutxx?	Oct 24 10:38
mutxx	good thankyou , and you ?	Oct 24 10:38
_goblin	feeling well? Enjoying life?	Oct 24 10:38
_goblin	spiffing.	Oct 24 10:38
mutxx	pip pip	Oct 24 10:39
_goblin	"let those who have Windows 7 receive thy pity for they know not what they do..” – Goblin 3:16	Oct 24 10:41
_goblin	yawn.	Oct 24 10:44
_goblin	got anymore gems for today Mutxx? Could you get them out now, Im going to work shortly and don't want to miss anything.	Oct 24 10:45
mutxx	no my interest is why some people would saste most of their best years, fighting against some company that is not even in the same country as them, not get a job, and spend ALL day every day trolling the web quote mining in an attempt to put people out of work, and damage people, instead of getting a job, using your mind for good and not evil, and do it for 3 or 4 years, and still have no idea if what you are spending MOST of your life (and best years	Oct 24 10:45
_goblin	as if by magic...just let me digest this.	Oct 24 10:45
_goblin	"no my interest is why some people would saste most of their best years, fighting against some company" , mmm I take it then you also troll NHS protest sites then? Whats it to you? Do you also do this with bloggers who believe theirs aliens in Area51? You too must spend much time on the net.	Oct 24 10:47
mutxx	im not talking about anyone else here, im interesting in why Roy does it,	Oct 24 10:48
_goblin	"using your mind for good and not evil" what on earth is this...we are talking about software. and they say Linux users are religious in their promotion of their OS of choice.	Oct 24 10:48
mutxx	no im talking about a PhD student spending his best academic years (20 to 25) running a hate site, instead of using his brain for something actually constructive.	Oct 24 10:49
_goblin	Good and evil....oh no!....its Roy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWhmXoEr9z0	Oct 24 10:49
mutxx	or get a job and contribute to society	Oct 24 10:49
fewa	mutxx, go suck your own dick	Oct 24 10:50
_goblin	"or get a job and contribute to society" - Coming from Mutxx thats the funniest thing Ive read today.	Oct 24 10:50
mutxx	there you go,, well done..	Oct 24 10:50
_goblin	Mutxx you are a hoot. You claim Roy spends so much time on the net yet you do exactly the same thing....good effort.	Oct 24 10:52
mutxx	by the time I was Roy's age, I was in the military, got a degree in engineering, traveled the world, bought a house, learnt to fly, done 450 skydives, got 4 trades certificates, got married, and had worked full time for 7 years. so what's Roy doing with his life?	Oct 24 10:53
mutxx	Im retired, ive done it all, im not in my prime years,	Oct 24 10:53
mutxx	Im retired, RICH, im not a rich kid mooching on parents and spreading hate 24/7, if I was Roy's father he would be a swift kick in the pants and told to go get a job.	Oct 24 10:54
_goblin	Really? By the time I was Roys age, I had developed a faster than light drive, spent 2 years in an alternate universe cured world poverty and still got home in time for tea. Absolute rubbish....you can't and won't prove any of that. Even if it was true whats that got to do with Roy posting about Novell/MS?	Oct 24 10:55
mutxx	so what's Roy done?	Oct 24 10:55
mutxx	created 7000 posts hardly no one reads.	Oct 24 10:55
_goblin	why are you even bothered?	Oct 24 10:55
_goblin	are you a long lost auntie?	Oct 24 10:55
mutxx	I could ask you guys the same thing.	Oct 24 10:55
_goblin	and I could you.	Oct 24 10:55
_goblin	so there you go.	Oct 24 10:56
mutxx	Im here because I dont like schadenfreude, i actually think it sickening, resorting to personal attack, trying to put people (real people who needs jobs) out of work.	Oct 24 10:56
_goblin	right, so why are you not doing this around the area51 conspiracy sites or the sites that claim 911 was staged by the US government....theres alot of "work" for you out there.	Oct 24 10:57
mutxx	It's nice to be supported by rich parents and be given all the time in the world to do what you like, it's just sad that a bright person would spend 3 or 4 years of his life on such a pointless and trivial matter.	Oct 24 10:57
_goblin	Im sure Roy appreciates your concern.	Oct 24 10:58
mutxx	Because I like and Support FOSS, and I dont think sites like this one is helping anyone. doing far more damage than good. and Im interested in extremeists groups.	Oct 24 10:58
_goblin	I was waiting for that. And don't tell me youre a linux user too?	Oct 24 10:59
_goblin	and you consider this an extremist group?	Oct 24 10:59
mutxx	yes i do.	Oct 24 10:59
_goblin	just what have I done that is extremist?	Oct 24 10:59
_goblin	or fewa	Oct 24 10:59
_goblin	or homer	Oct 24 10:59
_goblin	or anyone else here.	Oct 24 11:00
_goblin	I would say your lurking in BN is far more extremist than anything Ive witnessed here.	Oct 24 11:00
mutxx	yes, i know its very hard for you to see what you do, as you surround yourself with like minded people, so it ends up being one big "everyone agreeing, love fest".	Oct 24 11:01
_goblin	give me one example.	Oct 24 11:01
_goblin	any one.	Oct 24 11:01
_goblin	I don't agree with everything Roy says.	Oct 24 11:01
_goblin	I don't agree with a 100% FOSS model	Oct 24 11:02
_goblin	and I certainly don't agree with alot RMS says.	Oct 24 11:02
_goblin	Ive said this repeatedly on my blog.	Oct 24 11:02
mutxx	but you dont take him to task on it, and I get you agree with the vast majority of his bile.	Oct 24 11:02
_goblin	example...just one.	Oct 24 11:02
_goblin	any one.	Oct 24 11:02
mutxx	example of what ?	Oct 24 11:03
_goblin	of what you just claimed....(memory poor)	Oct 24 11:03
_goblin	tell me what I agree with Roy on.	Oct 24 11:03
_goblin	...I going to love this.	Oct 24 11:03
mutxx	goblin, do you ever actually read Roy's posts and comments ?	Oct 24 11:03
_goblin	you don't know my exact views Mutxx because you have never asked.	Oct 24 11:04
_goblin	even on my blog I use the words "I'll let readers decide"	Oct 24 11:04
mutxx	I dont know your exact views, thats right, But I know from Roy's comments his exact views.	Oct 24 11:04
_goblin	so why did you just seek to make implication of my view?	Oct 24 11:04
_goblin	telling lies?	Oct 24 11:04
_goblin	again?	Oct 24 11:04
mutxx	um, because you are the one questioning me about my motives.	Oct 24 11:05
_goblin	so you make statements without having the facts at your disposal do you? and you do alot of this do you? -- You say Roy has a problem?	Oct 24 11:05
mutxx	as you seem to be jumping in as one of Roy guard dogs, shielding him from controversy.	Oct 24 11:06
mutxx	as has become common practive on this site recently	Oct 24 11:06
_goblin	Im not shielding roy from anything....I was asking you for your opinions on me.	Oct 24 11:06
_goblin	good try..	Oct 24 11:06
mutxx	Roy trying to distance himself, from these issues, and using attack dogs to fight his wars.	Oct 24 11:06
_goblin	lets talk about me....not Roy.	Oct 24 11:06
_goblin	can I have example of my extremist behaviour please?	Oct 24 11:07
mutxx	Sorry, but who are you ?? it's Roy's site, but it very nice you defend him so much, try to take the heat of so to speak.	Oct 24 11:08
_goblin	eh? I thought we were talking about me (you made the claims) Im not bringing roy into this.	Oct 24 11:08
_goblin	and it doesn't look like Roy is interested in what you have to say...	Oct 24 11:08
_goblin	and Mutxx you know exactly who I am, we've talked before.	Oct 24 11:09
_goblin	under your other nym	Oct 24 11:09
mutxx	I was not talking about you, I was talking about Roy , that was obvious, you steped in to deflect and guard dog roy	Oct 24 11:09
_goblin	not talking about me eh? Let me quote you from a few minutes ago:	Oct 24 11:09
_goblin	"i know its very hard for you to see what you do, as you surround yourself with like minded people, so it ends up being one big "everyone agreeing, love fest".	Oct 24 11:10
mutxx	Roy wants to try to distance himself, which is impossible as it's HIS site, but employes guard dogs to take the heat.	Oct 24 11:10
_goblin	check the IRC logs liar, I very rarely have conversations here....on average about 6 a week.	Oct 24 11:10
_goblin	and most of them I don't even speak with Roy.	Oct 24 11:10
_goblin	and hardly every respond to Roy's COLA posts and when I do speak with Roy not for more than a few minutes.	Oct 24 11:11
mutxx	I do not know ifyou are a rich kid in the UK with a unfinished PhD who has spent the past 3 years constantly trolling the web for snippets of information to fight a company in another country, and not bother to get a life, job, career, or future.	Oct 24 11:11
_goblin	does it matter?	Oct 24 11:12
_goblin	and why does Roy's future matter to you?	Oct 24 11:12
mutxx	goblin, ive read your "defence" of roy disarsterious interview, and you say your not a Roy attack dog	Oct 24 11:12
_goblin	liar.	Oct 24 11:12
_goblin	I balanced it with a defence of Jono	Oct 24 11:12
_goblin	let me quote myself:	Oct 24 11:12
_goblin	"I think Jono handled the interview well. Its would be hard for all the issues which Boycott Novell covers to be catered for in the hour or so slot that was dedicated to it."	Oct 24 11:13
mutxx	Ive read your defense of Roy, how is that a LIE.	Oct 24 11:13
_goblin	thats a defence of Roy is it?	Oct 24 11:13
mutxx	what else did you say ? im sure it was not just one sentense.	Oct 24 11:14
mutxx	ok,, ill go look see.	Oct 24 11:14
_goblin	Mutxx you really need to get your defence sorted out (you would be easy pickings in a court of law) You said originally "Sorry, but who are you ??" and now you admit to reading my article. You know exactly who I am and I put it to you that you are a liar.	Oct 24 11:14
_goblin	"Mutxx you are guilty only of being "Mutxx" that is your crime, its also your punishment."	Oct 24 11:15
_goblin	brb smoke break.	Oct 24 11:16
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_goblin	lol	Oct 24 11:21
_goblin	There are time like these when I celebrate the public logging of the IRC chat logs.	Oct 24 11:22
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_goblin	wb	Oct 24 11:24
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Mutx	yea, silly DSL modem :)	Oct 24 11:25
_goblin	its also dropped one of the "x"'s from your handle.	Oct 24 11:25
_goblin	for future visits maybe you should use this: http://nine.frenchboys.net/handle.php	Oct 24 11:25
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Mutx	so you say you dont allways agree with Roy, so what things dont you agree with him on ?	Oct 24 11:27
_goblin	as I said before (you must have missed it with your "silly DSL modem") I don't agree in a 100% foss model for starters.	Oct 24 11:27
_goblin	I agree with the need of DRM as a "necessary evil"	Oct 24 11:28
Mutx	geez thats fairly mild, what else?	Oct 24 11:28
_goblin	oh sorry for having views.	Oct 24 11:28
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Mutx	so you dont disagree with him on the "big" issues.	Oct 24 11:29
_goblin	why not (since you've asked me a massive question) you put opinions to me and I'll let you know if I agree or not.	Oct 24 11:29
Mutx	so you only disagree with Roy about 100% FOSS and DRM. ok, mild	Oct 24 11:29
_goblin	hang on...I asked you to put to me some of Roys views and I'll agree or disagree.	Oct 24 11:30
_goblin	I have not the time to list everything.	Oct 24 11:30
_goblin	I am giving you the opportunity of finding out about my views (the ones youre interested in)	Oct 24 11:30
_goblin	so it works like this....you ask me and I'll let you know.	Oct 24 11:31
Mutx	Sorry, you may have noticed im not Roy, I find roys issues mixed and ill thought out, im not going to try to translate Roy's idea's for you.. im sure you have some idea what Roy is for and against right ??	Oct 24 11:31
_goblin	cop out...	Oct 24 11:32
Mutx	and your's was not a cop out too, "tell me what Roy things and ill anser you HA"./	Oct 24 11:32
_goblin	You asked me the question "geez thats fairly mild, what else?" and I am giving you the opportunity...I said I don't have the time to go through everything Roy believes so I offer you the chance to get me to state my views on whatever topics you wish to bring up...just be specific and I'll answer.	Oct 24 11:33
Mutx	C'mon you've steped in as Roy guard dog, show us your "stuff" defend his honor	Oct 24 11:33
_goblin	eh?	Oct 24 11:33
_goblin	ah I see the new implication here....	Oct 24 11:34
_goblin	after you lied about not knowing me, lied about knowing my views you now seek to back out.	Oct 24 11:34
_goblin	oh and imply I am Roy's guard dog despite the fact that if you check the logs you will see how rarely I post here.	Oct 24 11:34
Mutx	Ofcouse I know you, I was saying I KNOW YOU ARE NOT ROY, it's Roys site, and Roy's issues, you're just the hired attack dog	Oct 24 11:35
_goblin	lol	Oct 24 11:35
_goblin	check the IRC logs liar.	Oct 24 11:35
_goblin	I asked you not to talk about roy...I asked you to talk about the implication you made about "extremist group"	Oct 24 11:35
Mutx	rarly is roy threatened by others, so you're duties are not needed that often, thats what happens when you surround yourself with YES men.	Oct 24 11:35
_goblin	but Ive established Im not a yes man since I don't hold with everything Roy says.	Oct 24 11:36
Mutx	Ofcourse you want me not to talk about Roy, thats your job, but this site IS ROY, everyone knows that.	Oct 24 11:36
_goblin	and Ive also established that I presented a balanced opinion of the FLOSS interview.	Oct 24 11:36
_goblin	and Ive also stated how little I actually chat here....	Oct 24 11:37
_goblin	but yet you still seek to claim Im a guard dog?	Oct 24 11:37
_goblin	or have I got that wrong?	Oct 24 11:37
_goblin	please give me evidence of me acting as a guard dog. An IRC log, an article, a comment....anything....please, lets have a look.	Oct 24 11:38
_goblin	another quote from my article on Roy's interview:	Oct 24 11:39
_goblin	"Did Roy look bad? Definately not. Did Jono “pull a fast one”? I’d say no. I just have the opinion that whilst it was an interesting interview, it was a wasted opportunity for Jono to produce a compelling piece which would have had the forums talking for months."	Oct 24 11:39
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_goblin	or how about this:	Oct 24 11:40
_goblin	"Roy seems to be of the opinion that the interview was a flawed, I would disagree..."	Oct 24 11:40
_goblin	yep. I'm a great guard dog.....if I am doing what you suggest then I'm not very good at it.	Oct 24 11:40
*zer0c00l` is now known as zer0c00l		Oct 24 11:41
_goblin	ho hum...	Oct 24 11:42
_goblin	I think this is the longest conversation Ive had on the BN channel for months...	Oct 24 11:43
_goblin	mutx, if you want to put any of Roy's stances to me to either agree or disagree with you had better hurry up....Im off to work shortly....	Oct 24 11:44
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_goblin	yawn...	Oct 24 11:45
*Mutex_ (n=cheese@CPE-143-238-71-47.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #boycottnovell		Oct 24 11:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Great talk from Gerv about his first BBC BASIC program.Fun. #lrl2009		Oct 24 11:53
_goblin	right, Im off to work....Mutex_ good try. Maybe next time we chat you can try not to fixate on Roy and his opinions? If you want to talk "Roy" do it with him. I'm happy to speak about my views (which if you had taken my opportunity up you would have seen are vastly different to his) I really hope you get to speak to Roy, maybe then you can get your fix and get it out of your system. Your behaviour cannot be healthy for you.	Oct 24 11:53
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Mutex_	lol	Oct 24 11:54
fewa	I cant figure out what slashdot is trying to do with this: http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/10/23/1446219/When-Libertarians-Attack-Free-Software	Oct 24 11:55
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fewa	why not invalid slashdot has turned into such a chimera	Oct 24 11:56
fewa	*while	Oct 24 11:58
schestowitz	http://www.cardpartner.com/app/fsf	Oct 24 12:02
fewa	yeah i saw that	Oct 24 12:02
schestowitz	Tim Lee is pro-FS	Oct 24 12:05
schestowitz	It's funny how "business" schools attack peer production	Oct 24 12:05
schestowitz	But winner of economic Nobel Prize is Elinor, who promotes it	Oct 24 12:06
schestowitz	Same with Stiglitz and Maskin	Oct 24 12:06
fewa	"peer-prodution"?	Oct 24 12:12
fewa	"business" schools are factories for a special class of people	Oct 24 12:13
fewa	those peoples with superior power for greed, incompetence, etc...	Oct 24 12:13
zer0c00l	schestowitz: when did they start it http://www.cardpartner.com/app/fsf	Oct 24 12:15
fewa	bout a year ago zer0c00l	Oct 24 12:16
zer0c00l	fewa: ok	Oct 24 12:16
fewa	its just a standard thing for any non-profit	Oct 24 12:16
fewa	the bank still gets a mega-cut	Oct 24 12:16
fewa	and gets to rip of merchant	Oct 24 12:16
zer0c00l	oh	Oct 24 12:16
fewa	thats just a feature of credit cards	Oct 24 12:18
fewa	3% on the merchant side	Oct 24 12:18
fewa	instead of being itemized on reciet	Oct 24 12:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] 10 PRINT '#lrl2009'; 20 GOTO 10		Oct 24 12:25
Mutex_	ahh yes, good old, "Beginners All Purpose Symbolic Instruction Code"	Oct 24 12:27
Mutex_	BAPSIC	Oct 24 12:32
schestowitz	[12:13] <fewa> "business" schools are factories for a special class of people	Oct 24 12:40
schestowitz	Yes, those whose families they come from	Oct 24 12:40
schestowitz	zer0c00l: I don't know when they started this card thing. I've only just found out in identi.ca	Oct 24 12:41
zer0c00l	schestowitz: ok	Oct 24 12:43
fewa	Its real	Oct 24 12:45
fewa	but its not like its free money to them	Oct 24 12:45
trmanco	I had a bios crach today	Oct 24 12:58
trmanco	crash*	Oct 24 12:58
fewa	BIOS?	Oct 24 12:59
fewa	wtf	Oct 24 12:59
trmanco	I think the config got corrupted	Oct 24 12:59
fewa	time for http://coreboot.org i guess	Oct 24 12:59
trmanco	I did a CMOS reset and everything is fine for now	Oct 24 12:59
schestowitz	trmanco: where's the bot?	Oct 24 12:59
schestowitz	Maybe you can cron it :-)	Oct 24 13:00
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phIRCe	Hello World!	Oct 24 13:00
trmanco	then my filesystem could mount	Oct 24 13:02
trmanco	...	Oct 24 13:02
trmanco	geeze	Oct 24 13:02
trmanco	...	Oct 24 13:02
trmanco	because the BIOS date wasn't set properly	Oct 24 13:02
fewa	yeah i hate that	Oct 24 13:03
fewa	"mount time in the past...forcing fsck"	Oct 24 13:03
fewa	if its more than a month it should just ignore it and print a WTF	Oct 24 13:04
trmanco	it was actually years past :-P	Oct 24 13:04
fewa	ok, more than a year	Oct 24 13:04
fewa	if (time_t_now - time_t_mount) < 0 { if (time_t_now - time_t_mount) > -(606024*365)}	Oct 24 13:07
fewa	or whatever	Oct 24 13:07
schestowitz	fsck is bad	Oct 24 13:12
schestowitz	It kicks in just when you need to boot fast	Oct 24 13:12
schestowitz	Always at the worst times	Oct 24 13:12
schestowitz	Like when I'm at work trying to get things done	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	ubuntu 9.10 lets you cancel it	Oct 24 13:13
schestowitz	And don't have anything to occupy myself with while it's fscking the disk	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	but when i tried it my computer rebooted, so it must still be a little buggy	Oct 24 13:13
schestowitz	So I go get tea or something	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	schestowitz, brtfs has online fsck	Oct 24 13:13
schestowitz	fewa: not ub Kubuntu 9.10	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	mine did	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	x86_64	Oct 24 13:13
schestowitz	/ub./in/ (fingers misplaced)	Oct 24 13:13
fewa	it says, press ESC to cancell	Oct 24 13:14
schestowitz	Also, on this machine it has NO PROGRESS BAR	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	and has a differnt graphic	Oct 24 13:14
schestowitz	atrocious!!	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	with progress bar	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	x86_64?	Oct 24 13:14
schestowitz	Nopee	Oct 24 13:14
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schestowitz	I told jono	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	im running	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	<schestowitz> fsck is bad	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	<schestowitz> It kicks in just when you need to boot fast	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	<schestowitz> Always at the worst times	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	<schestowitz> Like when I'm at work trying to get things done	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	whoops	Oct 24 13:14
schestowitz	He just suggested that I file a bug	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	running 2.6.31-13-generic x86_64	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	and i got progress bar	Oct 24 13:14
fewa	with press ESC dialogue	Oct 24 13:15
schestowitz	roy@roy:~$ uname -a	Oct 24 13:15
schestowitz	Linux roy 2.6.31-11-generic #38-Ubuntu SMP Fri Oct 2 11:55:55 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux	Oct 24 13:15
fewa	i686 and x86_64 should be the same	Oct 24 13:15
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fewa	this was cool from earlier http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq8aZVLpf-c	Oct 24 13:15
phIRCe	Title: YouTube - Air Car (2 of 2) from Australia .::. Size~: 133.22 KB	Oct 24 13:15
trmanco	mine has a progress counter	Oct 24 13:15
trmanco	in%	Oct 24 13:15
fewa	maybe you were still on jauty kernel?	Oct 24 13:16
fewa	I have ext3	Oct 24 13:16
fewa	not ext4	Oct 24 13:16
trmanco	I also have ext3	Oct 24 13:18
trmanco	karmic	Oct 24 13:18
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schestowitz	Monster Energy Drink got itself a lot of publicity because of DMCA abuse. http://techdirt.com/articles/20091023/0448336651.shtml	Oct 24 13:20
phIRCe	Title: Monster Energy Drink Backs Down Due To Public Pressure; Vermonster Beer Lives On \| Techdirt .::. Size~: 29.43 KB	Oct 24 13:20
schestowitz	fewa: ext4 here	Oct 24 13:20
schestowitz	Maybe that's why	Oct 24 13:20
fewa	differnt utilities	Oct 24 13:20
fewa	file bug	Oct 24 13:21
fewa	bet they will port across	Oct 24 13:21
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schestowitz	http://pubcit.typepad.com/clpblog/2009/10/new-jersey-school-board-subpoenas-citizens-who-criticize-its-staff-to-sue-them-for-defamation.html	Oct 24 13:24
phIRCe	Title: CL&P Blog: New Jersey School Board Subpoenas Citizens Who Criticize Its Staff to Sue Them for Defamation .::. Size~: 57.76 KB	Oct 24 13:24
willimm	hey schestowiz	Oct 24 13:28
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schestowitz	Hey	Oct 24 13:31
*Mutx has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Oct 24 13:40
fewa	nice	Oct 24 13:41
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schestowitz	nice -9	Oct 24 13:44
schestowitz	??	Oct 24 13:44
fewa	on school board	Oct 24 13:46
schestowitz	http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Mozilla-confirms-Firefox-updates-and-beta-delayed-836687.html	Oct 24 13:46
phIRCe	Title: Mozilla confirms Firefox updates and beta delayed - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 27.4 KB	Oct 24 13:46
schestowitz	fewa: not so nice	Oct 24 13:46
schestowitz	Maybe nice for those who cannot tolerate criticism	Oct 24 13:46
fewa	yes, you had it right	Oct 24 13:47
fewa	nice -9	Oct 24 13:47
fewa	:P	Oct 24 13:47
satipera	I wondered if there was a table of national slavery to M$ how would it look? For myself South Korea has to be near the top.	Oct 24 13:48
fewa	funny is that South Korea use to have strong rules on capital flight	Oct 24 13:48
fewa	and preventing money from leaving the country	Oct 24 13:48
fewa	Chomsky remarked that at one point the penalty was death	Oct 24 13:48
fewa	but I guess they have no problem shipping lots of money to MSFT	Oct 24 13:49
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] is there any way i could apply, debian's "dpatches" in !fedora? dpatch-run is not available; !debian !patch		Oct 24 13:49
*zer0c00l is now known as zer0c00l\|afk		Oct 24 13:49
satipera	capital flight is another matter	Oct 24 13:51
fewa	this is capital drain	Oct 24 13:51
fewa	yes differn't	Oct 24 13:51
*Mutex_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))		Oct 24 13:56
satipera	And there no diamonds in the mine :)	Oct 24 13:58
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schestowitz	http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2009/images/10/23/fortune_20091109_150.jpg	Oct 24 14:06
phIRCe	Title: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 1.97 KB	Oct 24 14:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] New Blog Post - No Alignment Left Behind http://tinyurl.com/ylfks5u		Oct 24 14:09
phIRCe	Title: No Alignment Left Behind .::. Size~: 21.53 KB	Oct 24 14:09
cubezzz	well, been using ext4 for a day now	Oct 24 14:09
cubezzz	no data loss yet :)	Oct 24 14:09
trmanco	lol	Oct 24 14:09
trmanco	were you counting on getting a data loss?	Oct 24 14:10
cubezzz	no :)	Oct 24 14:10
trmanco	:-P	Oct 24 14:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Bem, hoje a minha BIOS decidiu dar o berro... mas nada que um reset a CMOS nao resolva :-P		Oct 24 14:14
schestowitz	http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE59M2RJ20091023	Oct 24 14:16
schestowitz	Boic.	Oct 24 14:16
schestowitz	Apple does some OK work attacking its binary ally: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10381704-71.html	Oct 24 14:18
phIRCe	Title: Apple spits at Windows 7: You can't trust Microsoft \| Technically Incorrect - CNET News .::. Size~: 358.25 KB	Oct 24 14:18
schestowitz	http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/nokia-delays-flagship-n900-linux-phone-2202	Oct 24 14:20
phIRCe	Title: Nokia Delays Flagship N900 Linux Phone - News - eWeekEurope.co.uk .::. Size~: 21.21 KB	Oct 24 14:20
schestowitz	Maybe they want to sue some more first :-)	Oct 24 14:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Why disproportional corporate votes? Lets replace with plurality votes. #s1074 http://ur1.ca/ebx6 http://ur1.ca/ebwc		Oct 24 14:24
phIRCe	Title: Improving Corporate Governance - C-SPAN Video Library .::. Size~: 82.34 KB	Oct 24 14:24
phIRCe	Title: Senator Charles E. Schumer .::. Size~: 39.84 KB	Oct 24 14:24
fewa	schestowitz, their criticism reads like a blank slate	Oct 24 14:26
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schestowitz	I see that mutex is trolling BN in blog comments now	Oct 24 14:52
schestowitz	sigh	Oct 24 14:52
schestowitz	What a leech	Oct 24 14:52
schestowitz	He came here from proxies IIRC with so many nyms	Oct 24 14:53
zer0c00l\|afk	who is mutexx;	Oct 24 14:53
*zer0c00l\|afk is now known as zer0c00l		Oct 24 14:53
schestowitz	Goes by the name "TheTruth"	Oct 24 14:53
Mutex_	at least im just a leech roy	Oct 24 14:53
schestowitz	You're obsessed, Sir.	Oct 24 14:54
zer0c00l	lol	Oct 24 14:54
schestowitz	You're working like mad getting into this channel just to resist the message	Oct 24 14:54
Mutex_	oh yea, and we are sure you know all about obsession too.	Oct 24 14:54
schestowitz	That's like me breaking down the door of Britney SPread forums to heckle the regulars	Oct 24 14:54
schestowitz	Don't agree? Then go to another forum	Oct 24 14:54
schestowitz	Stop trying to upset others	Oct 24 14:54
schestowitz	And you also resort to personal attacks	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	You werre not banned for opposing views	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	But for abusing others	Oct 24 14:55
Mutex_	so I suppose I should just go away and let you say whatever you think is right then, so you can surround yourself with Yes men,	Oct 24 14:55
Mutex_	Ive never abused others.	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	Mutex_: I'm not obsessed with people	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	Here you are obsessing over people	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	I look at issues in society	Oct 24 14:55
Mutex_	sorry, if you think i did show me where i did that, otherwise stop lieing	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	And I address them	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	And here you are trolling 1 person	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	Like some imbecile	Oct 24 14:55
schestowitz	[14:55] <Mutex_> Ive never abused others.	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	You did.	Oct 24 14:56
fewa	yarp	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	That's why you got kickbanned	Oct 24 14:56
Mutex_	sure, and what do you do all day Roy, you do not spend your life trolling the web for your "cause".	Oct 24 14:56
Mutex_	show me where Roy, back up your comments with some facts please.	Oct 24 14:56
fewa	so vile	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	My cause is not to troll a channel/person	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	My cause has nothing to do with some small group	Oct 24 14:56
fewa	you have such stamina	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	It's to do with phenomena	Oct 24 14:56
Mutex_	no it's to troll the web for your cause. same difference.	Oct 24 14:56
schestowitz	OK	Oct 24 14:57
schestowitz	I'm done wasting time w/ you	Oct 24 14:57
Mutex_	yes, that's easier than confronting the issues I guess, but that's your call.	Oct 24 14:57
Mutex_	why when I ask you to provide proof that I personally attacked anyone, you seem to go all quite ?	Oct 24 14:58
*trmanco gives channel operator status to fewa		Oct 24 14:59
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schestowitz	You were given a second chance after abuse	Oct 24 15:01
Mutex_	show me what abuse, just because you say it, clearly does not mean its true, if you have some proof of me abusing anyone, im sure you would be quick to show it, seems to me you think just saying something means it's true.	Oct 24 15:02
schestowitz	"Hewlett-Packard also did something yesterday, albeit very quietly. HP removed Linux entirely from the part of their website where they sell netbooks. The day Windows 7 became available the HP Mi interface appears to have died a quiet death." http://ever-increasing-entropy.blogspot.com/2009/10/amazing-coincidence-or-something-more.html	Oct 24 15:03
phIRCe	Title: OpenDNS .::. Size~: 2.09 KB	Oct 24 15:03
schestowitz	Advertising contracts again	Oct 24 15:03
schestowitz	"Make the rivals vanish" agreement	Oct 24 15:03
schestowitz	Agreement$	Oct 24 15:03
schestowitz	http://www.serverwatch.com/hreviews/article.php/3845291/How-Virtualization-Exacerbates-Fragmentation.htm	Oct 24 15:06
schestowitz	Fragmentation =negative spin on diversity	Oct 24 15:07
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schestowitz	Lada mentality	Oct 24 15:07
schestowitz	Symbian tries to hype up its "open source": http://symbian.org/media/news/pr2009_10.php	Oct 24 15:07
phIRCe	Title: EPL Release of microkernel demonstrates progress towards open source goal \| Symbian .::. Size~: 15.11 KB	Oct 24 15:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is anyone other than Nokia/Symbian using Symbian code at all?		Oct 24 15:10
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schestowitz	http://www.sutor.com/newsite/blog-open/?p=4541	Oct 24 15:14
cubezzz	negative spin on everything it seems	Oct 24 15:14
phIRCe	Title: New early releases of Ubuntu, Fedora, and openSUSE Linux are available \| Blog \| Bob Sutor .::. Size~: 49.49 KB	Oct 24 15:14
cubezzz	news guys need to be more positive	Oct 24 15:14
cubezzz	AiksaurusGTK looks pretty useful	Oct 24 15:16
schestowitz		Oct 24 15:17
schestowitz	[15:14] <cubezzz> negative spin on everything it seems	Oct 24 15:17
schestowitz	One of my favs is "open is less secure"	Oct 24 15:17
schestowitz	Let's do that in elections, too :-)	Oct 24 15:17
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cubezzz	fedora 11 looks pretty nice	Oct 24 15:17
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schestowitz	there's plannign for 13	Oct 24 15:20
schestowitz	Ugh..	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	http://ostatic.com/blog/is-endless-forking-and-fragmentation-what-android-needs	Oct 24 15:21
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phIRCe	Title: Is Endless Forking and Fragmentation What Android Needs? .::. Size~: 35.07 KB	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	Once again...	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	They are being silly	Oct 24 15:21
cubezzz	diversity bad? :)	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	The WHOLE POINT of FS is that modifications are allowed	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	And ENCOURAGED	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	So now they say, "just let Google do its thing and never changed their code"	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	That's NOT Free software	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	That's idiocy	Oct 24 15:21
schestowitz	it's like that whole "united Linux" thing	Oct 24 15:22
schestowitz	Where deviation is frowned upon or not permitted	Oct 24 15:22
schestowitz	I.e. it's Linux tyranny	Oct 24 15:22
cubezzz	there's no Linux tyranny since everyone goes their own way	Oct 24 15:25
cubezzz	no central control	Oct 24 15:25
schestowitz	Linux doesn't have forks yet	Oct 24 15:26
schestowitz	Not proper ones	Oct 24 15:26
schestowitz	But there are Linux alternatives	Oct 24 15:27
cubezzz	weird how they put all this cross-compiling stuff under education	Oct 24 15:27
trmanco	I have to go now	Oct 24 15:28
trmanco	cya guys	Oct 24 15:28
trmanco	!quit phIRCe	Oct 24 15:28
trmanco	!quit phIRCe	Oct 24 15:28
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cubezzz	may as well try the new KDE while I'm at it	Oct 24 15:33
Eruaran	hello	Oct 24 15:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @popey: look what you did ... http://ping.fm/Xp7PW		Oct 24 15:36
schestowitz	popey: it's a lost cause with him. I flagged Rory as a MSFTer years ago when he was admitting having lunch with Microsoft execs. He has always been LInux hostile	Oct 24 15:38
schestowitz	This reminds me of jono trying to teach Ashley Highfield to use Ubuntu	Oct 24 15:38
schestowitz	After he attacked Linux repeatedly	Oct 24 15:38
schestowitz	And then Ashley joined Microsoft :-)	Oct 24 15:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] bored and ill. please feed me link crack.		Oct 24 15:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard come to irc :-)		Oct 24 15:45
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Eruaran	Has Google given any indication when Wave might become widely available ?	Oct 24 15:47
schestowitz	They seem to be release Chrome for Mac before GNU/Linux	Oct 24 15:48
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schestowitz	http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/10/covergloobus-15-released-gets-theme.html	Oct 24 15:50
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schestowitz	http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2009/10/22/hulu-to-begin-charging-in-2010-says-exec/	Oct 24 15:55
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schestowitz	There's lots of noise about them going non-gratis, which is not even true	Oct 24 15:55
schestowitz	Psystar releases Mac clone software http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10381419-37.html	Oct 24 15:56
schestowitz	http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/locutus/the-dark-side-of-linux-34929	Oct 24 15:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] some archbishops are stranger than others http://is.gd/4zpDR		Oct 24 16:00
schestowitz	Ubuntu Christian Edition gets slapped. http://www.techiemoe.com/tech/ubuntuce904.htm	Oct 24 16:00
schestowitz	Daemonisation of Linux from the con press: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2009-10-22-windows-microsoft-linux_N.htm?csp=34	Oct 24 16:02
schestowitz	Linux "planning a coup"	Oct 24 16:02
schestowitz	Then they cite Microsoft puppets like Gartner	Oct 24 16:02
popey	schestowitz: :)	Oct 24 16:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 says "Don't put your postcode on your christmas cards, put FREE THE POSTCODE instead".		Oct 24 16:04
schestowitz	http://tuxtraining.com/2009/10/22/tip-fix-update-notifier-in-ubuntu-jaunty-and-karmic	Oct 24 16:05
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schestowitz	popey: glad you saw it	Oct 24 16:05
schestowitz	I'm not exaggerating BTW	Oct 24 16:05
schestowitz	I could produce for you evidence	Oct 24 16:05
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schestowitz	I envision that Rory has some dinners at houses of Microsoft execs, too	Oct 24 16:05
schestowitz	That's OK. But I'm just not expecting much good to come out of him trying Linux. It's like Peter Day with Red Hat's CEO	Oct 24 16:06
schestowitz	/s/CEO/director/	Oct 24 16:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 BRUNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!		Oct 24 16:07
popey	schestowitz: I linked to it from my blog when he published it	Oct 24 16:07
popey	AIUI he's getting more exposure to Linux over the next week or so	Oct 24 16:07
schestowitz	http://linuxpoison.blogspot.com/2009/10/stress-testing-linux-system.html Stress Testing Linux System	Oct 24 16:10
schestowitz	popey: yes, I know	Oct 24 16:10
schestowitz	From a cursory look at the comments, it's polite feedback	Oct 24 16:10
schestowitz	He tries to make it behave like Windows	Oct 24 16:11
schestowitz	With Wine and all	Oct 24 16:11
schestowitz	The typical fallacies	Oct 24 16:11
schestowitz	And he can't even be arsed to install wine	Oct 24 16:11
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schestowitz	So why all the blame? 24 hours are barely enough for me to get used to a new /distro/, let alone OS	Oct 24 16:11
schestowitz	Hey, DavidGerard	Oct 24 16:11
DavidGerard	good afternoon all	Oct 24 16:11
schestowitz	DavidGerard: flu?	Oct 24 16:12
DavidGerard	or something. sore throat, coughing. appears viral.	Oct 24 16:12
DavidGerard	the toddler has it too now, so she's miserable cos she wants to play and play and play but hasn't the energy	Oct 24 16:12
DavidGerard	also, my brain is made of swiss cheese	Oct 24 16:12
schestowitz	You need to sober up with jack Daniels then	Oct 24 16:13
schestowitz	To fill the holes	Oct 24 16:13
DavidGerard	tempting	Oct 24 16:13
DavidGerard	i did have a celebratory beer last night as I am almost employed	Oct 24 16:13
DavidGerard	(won't say where on a publicly logged channel)	Oct 24 16:13
schestowitz	Linux takes the beating from RTOS people who hate that 'free thing'.... :Linux and Security: Mission Impossible? http://www.embedded.com/design/opensource/220900273	Oct 24 16:14
DavidGerard	just waiting for paperwork to arrive	Oct 24 16:14
DavidGerard	already arranged my work laptop, a tiny 12" 1kg thing	Oct 24 16:14
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DavidGerard	probably running windows, but should ubuntu nicely ;-)	Oct 24 16:14
schestowitz	I guess then that it's a familiar large media company	Oct 24 16:14
DavidGerard	i couldn't possibly comment	Oct 24 16:14
DavidGerard	oh good, "open in browser" is correctly configured in xchat out the box	Oct 24 16:15
DavidGerard	(i didn't have xchat on this laptop so installed it just now)	Oct 24 16:15
schestowitz	PR for Trafigura.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/oct/17/trafigura-minton-report-revealed	Oct 24 16:15
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, It should just use your default browser	Oct 24 16:15
schestowitz	DaemonFC: which distro?	Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerard	thank you for reminding me of irc, it's an effortless way of soaking up braindead hours	Oct 24 16:16
schestowitz	xchat has this annoying behaviour (having to context-menu through to opening links)	Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerard	whatever it thinks is freedesktop "default" in the present environment, I should think	Oct 24 16:16
DaemonFC	schestowitz, On Windows, Mac, or in GNOME at least	Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerard	on kde it opens in konq unless you bludgeon it not to	Oct 24 16:16
DaemonFC	GNOME has a place where you select your default browser and email	Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerard	this laptop is on gnome, so it opened in firefox	Oct 24 16:16
DaemonFC	Xchat just uses whatever you specified	Oct 24 16:16
DavidGerard	gnome used to annoy the hell out of me, it doesn't any more. and nautilus is actually reasonably usable as a file browser.	Oct 24 16:17
DavidGerard	schestowitz: that embedded.com link is a quite painstaking assemblage of FUD	Oct 24 16:18
DaemonFC	I haven't used the Internet Explorer "uninstaller" yet on this install of 7	Oct 24 16:18
schestowitz	Yegulalp neglcts to say he was a Windows journo before turning to FOSS: http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/10/why_was_the_ope.html;jsessionid=GOBYKBHX1IWXVQE1GHPCKHWATMY32JVN	Oct 24 16:18
DavidGerard	when even wind river gives up and starts selling linux ...	Oct 24 16:18
DaemonFC	I used it on the RC build, it removes the browser executable so IE can't open	Oct 24 16:18
DavidGerard	DaemonFC: how's 7 running for you? how much memory/cpu?	Oct 24 16:18
schestowitz	DavidGerard: yes, it's done there in embedded.com occasionally	Oct 24 16:18
schestowitz	They mostly host columns from vendors	Oct 24 16:18
DavidGerard	surely that's just a matter of removing iexplore.exe itself	Oct 24 16:18
DavidGerard	ah	Oct 24 16:18
schestowitz	Sometimes linux boosting frokm montavista	Oct 24 16:18
schestowitz	And sometimes the proprietary folks	Oct 24 16:19
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, You should count "cached" and "Free" together, soooo......	Oct 24 16:19
*schestowitz sees kde 4.3 using 1gb with lots of apps open atm		Oct 24 16:19
DavidGerard	yeah	Oct 24 16:19
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, 6933 megs free of 8190 with Security Essentials, Xchat, and Utorrent running, and Winamp playing a FLAC file	Oct 24 16:20
schestowitz	12 windows	Oct 24 16:20
DaemonFC	it's doing a lot better than Vista	Oct 24 16:20
DavidGerard	ah, 8GB RAM? in that case even windows 7 would run quite happily ;-)	Oct 24 16:20
schestowitz	7 gb free	Oct 24 16:20
DaemonFC	DaemonFC, It's happy with 2, thats the least I've ran it on	Oct 24 16:20
popey	schestowitz: i agree 24 hours isnt enough	Oct 24 16:20
DaemonFC	my older system had 4 though and that was fine too	Oct 24 16:20
popey	schestowitz: also, why aren't you at lrl? :)	Oct 24 16:20
DavidGerard	in my experience of KDE and GNOME they don't need a lot of CPU but they're much happier with a lot of memory. KDE in under 384MB is pain. 512MB min, 1GB good	Oct 24 16:20
DaemonFC	errrr	Oct 24 16:20
DaemonFC	tab completion pwnage	Oct 24 16:21
DavidGerard	this laptop is a 1GHz P-III with 768MB	Oct 24 16:21
schestowitz	popey: I don't travel much	Oct 24 16:21
schestowitz	I don't know what LRL is	Oct 24 16:21
popey	LUGRadio Live	Oct 24 16:21
schestowitz	Probably "Linux <somthing>"	Oct 24 16:21
popey	also OggCamp tomorrow	Oct 24 16:21
popey	it's in wolverhampton	Oct 24 16:21
schestowitz	Yes, I know from audiocasts	Oct 24 16:21
schestowitz	Linux Outlaws	Oct 24 16:21
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, According to the Task Manager, 15% of my RAM is in use, Vista was using 28%-30% by this point	Oct 24 16:22
DavidGerard	it's useful IMO for free software advocates to be familiar with windows and mac os. i wouldn't call it mandatory, it is in fact rather painful	Oct 24 16:22
DaemonFC	so that's the closest to a comparison I can give	Oct 24 16:22
DavidGerard	i'm hoping my werk laptop is xp and not vista	Oct 24 16:22
schestowitz	DaemonFC: what about xp and madriva?	Oct 24 16:22
schestowitz	Vista is not a yardstick	Oct 24 16:22
schestowitz	XP runs more apps and games than Vista7	Oct 24 16:22
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, 7 is using equal RAM to XP x64 edition	Oct 24 16:22
DaemonFC	that's why I finally moved on	Oct 24 16:23
schestowitz	And the free copy	Oct 24 16:23
schestowitz	You left out that part	Oct 24 16:23
DaemonFC	meh, I would have "happened upon" one anyway	Oct 24 16:23
DavidGerard	wow(tm)	Oct 24 16:23
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Vista was just a place holder on this system	Oct 24 16:23
schestowitz	DaemonFC: sure	Oct 24 16:23
schestowitz	They fly out the window	Oct 24 16:23
DaemonFC	I only had to deal with it for a little more than a week	Oct 24 16:23
DavidGerard	7 is not in fact awful to use. it is however rather proprietary.	Oct 24 16:24
*schestowitz tries to find the cartoon		Oct 24 16:24
DavidGerard	did it let you add ogg directshow filters?	Oct 24 16:24
DaemonFC	It's quite easy to hex edit your BIOS and insert a SLIC 2.1 key	Oct 24 16:24
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, The final version of 7 lets you do that again	Oct 24 16:24
*DavidGerard adds those on windows boxes wherever feasible - WMP is not an awful media player really		Oct 24 16:24
DavidGerard	oh good!	Oct 24 16:24
DaemonFC	Microsoft reversed their position on that and opened it up again	Oct 24 16:24
schestowitz	I can't find it	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	i'm a big believer in free apps leading people to free software, having seen it happen so much	Oct 24 16:25
schestowitz	IIRC I saw it via Groklaw	Oct 24 16:25
schestowitz	Someone asks where to get Vista	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	SAVE VISTA!	Oct 24 16:25
schestowitz	And the peer says, "it's everywhere"	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	a MANLY operating system	Oct 24 16:25
DaemonFC	I wouldn't have bought a new computer to get stuck with Vista	Oct 24 16:25
schestowitz	[then you have boxes flying out the windows [in anger]]	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	like EDSEL! like HUMMER!	Oct 24 16:25
DaemonFC	that's what I have to say about that	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	an operating system for the days of 25c gasoline!	Oct 24 16:25
DavidGerard	a whole ton of shiny shiny chrome!	Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerard	and those TAILFINS!	Oct 24 16:26
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, Did you see that GM only got $150 million for HUMMER	Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerard	i'm unsurprised	Oct 24 16:26
DaemonFC	the brand has been destroyed by a bad economy and $3 a gallon gas	Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerard	there are people who have reasonable uses for a hummer	Oct 24 16:26
DaemonFC	totally destroyed :)	Oct 24 16:26
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DavidGerard	just not most of the buyers over the last 10 years	Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerard	like SUVs in general.	Oct 24 16:26
DavidGerard	my dad is one of the 7% of Australian 4x4 drivers whose 4x4 actually ever leaves the highway ;-)	Oct 24 16:27
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, I have NO use for something that gets 6 miles per gallon	Oct 24 16:27
DaemonFC	that's just unreasonable	Oct 24 16:27
DavidGerard	there are people who have reasonable use for tanks and trucks too	Oct 24 16:27
DavidGerard	thankfully i don't see a lot of 4x4s around e17	Oct 24 16:27
DaemonFC	my 15 year old Ford Taurus still runs fine (laugh all you like) and it gets at least 20 mpg	Oct 24 16:28
DavidGerard	a lot of the roads around here are basically paved goat tracks	Oct 24 16:28
DaemonFC	why do I want to quadruple my gasoline expenses	Oct 24 16:28
DavidGerard	and really, if you need a car in london you're doing it wrong	Oct 24 16:28
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, When I go out looking for a newer car, it'll probably just be some 4 cylinder deal with no frills	Oct 24 16:29
DavidGerard	yeah	Oct 24 16:29
DavidGerard	we're idly thinking about getting a Skoda Octavia - a Volkswagen but built like a tank. Very popular and quite robust.	Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, I had financed back in 2003 a new Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with the supercharged twin cam 3.8 liter V6	Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFC	I was literally heartbroken when it got repossessed	Oct 24 16:30
DavidGerard	most of the minicab drivers around here use octavias, you can get 'em fixed anywhere	Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFC	but it was a great ride	Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFC	even though it was a guzzler	Oct 24 16:30
DavidGerard	ooh yes, that does sound like a nice ride	Oct 24 16:30
DaemonFC	loaded, even had a holographic heads down display	Oct 24 16:31
DaemonFC	look up, the windshield is clear, look down a bit, and there's your gauges projected onto the windshield	Oct 24 16:31
schestowitz	popey: "We recorded this episode in one room together and are releasing to as soon as possible with minimal editing for a change. Since both of us are away for LugRadio Live and OggCamp at the moment, this was the only way to get the content out there without having a massive delay. Therefore, show notes will be added later, basically as soon as we get to it (most likely after the LRL/OggCamp weekend has wrapped up)."	Oct 24 16:31
schestowitz	http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/118	Oct 24 16:31
DaemonFC	that was my favorite gimmick in a car, ever	Oct 24 16:31
DaemonFC	I'd still kill to have that car back	Oct 24 16:32
DaemonFC	leather interior, power everything, satellite radio, butt warmers in the seats :)	Oct 24 16:33
schestowitz	Why not put the engine there? :-)	Oct 24 16:33
DaemonFC	lmao	Oct 24 16:33
DaemonFC	that's a little too hot I'm sure	Oct 24 16:33
schestowitz	So you provuide isulation	Oct 24 16:33
DavidGerard	where do you think car heat comes from?	Oct 24 16:34
DavidGerard	(usually from a heat exchanger on the exhaust)	Oct 24 16:34
DaemonFC	yep	Oct 24 16:34
DavidGerard	an innovation from the 1960s I believe	Oct 24 16:35
DavidGerard	i recall that arctic models of VW microbus would include electric or even petrol-fueled internal heaters	Oct 24 16:35
DavidGerard	(from reading the manual with my distinctly non-arctic VW)	Oct 24 16:36
popey	schestowitz: dan and fab are set right next to me :)	Oct 24 16:37
schestowitz	Cool!	Oct 24 16:37
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schestowitz	bbl	Oct 24 16:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 four large gents.. _ _ ¸		Oct 24 16:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Wonder how robust this twitterfall is'); DROP TABLE twitter;--		Oct 24 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] That's IT! I'm boycotting LRL 2010! #lrl2009		Oct 24 16:55
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DaemonFC	Microsoft has always done extensive usability studies with every software product. And it has always resulted in Microsoft products being confusing and condescending at the same time. (Are you sure you want to do that? Really? Are you really really sure? OK then, just reboot and click Yes five more times. Oops, sorry -- there was a fatal exception error. Here's some nonsense hexadecimal code to chew on.)	Oct 24 17:06
DaemonFC	http://www.pcworld.com/article/174306/will_windows_7_change_our_minds_about_microsoft.html	Oct 24 17:06
DaemonFC	lol	Oct 24 17:06
Diablo-D3	windows 7 did change my mind about microsoft	Oct 24 17:06
Diablo-D3	I believe they're actually trying to save the windows brand	Oct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3	7 really is an improvement over the horror that is vista	Oct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3	however	Oct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3	I dont believe they can unless they work even harder than this	Oct 24 17:07
Diablo-D3	they're about 1/3rd the way	Oct 24 17:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Simple English Wikiquote: deliberately distorting what people have said in case it's too hard. Closure proposal: http://bit.ly/3C0jfF		Oct 24 17:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Free pile of 'Art of Community' books for bonfire night!		Oct 24 17:13
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*DavidGerard wishes ms would hurry the heck up and collapse		Oct 24 17:16
DavidGerard	i see they managed to fiddle the numbers again this quarter, having set appropriately low analysts' expectations	Oct 24 17:16
DavidGerard	but half the sales of windows since last year? OUCH	Oct 24 17:16
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, It's the same reason why sales of everything is down	Oct 24 17:27
DaemonFC	the economy sucks, people hold onto the money they have	Oct 24 17:27
DaemonFC	they figure they can make that older computer last another year or two	Oct 24 17:28
DaemonFC	no new Windows sale to them this year	Oct 24 17:28
Sir_Konrad	by installing Windows 7.	Oct 24 17:28
Mutex_	yes people think keeping their home is more important than a new OS	Oct 24 17:28
DaemonFC	Mutex_, Funny how people think like that isn't it?	Oct 24 17:28
Mutex_	yes go figure :)	Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFC	I mean they can have Windows 7 on their PC while they're out in the alley keeping their hands warm over a flaming barrel of trash	Oct 24 17:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Anyone wanna buy a couple of lightly used 'Art of Community' books, lightly soiled?		Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFC	What ARE these people thinking?	Oct 24 17:29
DaemonFC	:)	Oct 24 17:29
Sir_Konrad	DaemonFC, they're glad they don't or don't know about Linux.	Oct 24 17:32
Mutex_	mabey they should of purchased $1000 worth of MSFT shares when it listed, at 0.0955 per share	Oct 24 17:32
Sir_Konrad	*don't use	Oct 24 17:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Wondering if @andysc will expense the £150 he bid in auction for the #lrl2009 banner to IBM		Oct 24 17:33
Mutex_	so that would be approx 10c a share, so $1000 would get you approx 100,000 shares x say $28 = alot of steak dinners.	Oct 24 17:38
DavidGerard	that's dollar value that's halved since last year, not units sold	Oct 24 17:40
DavidGerard	i'd credit netbooks	Oct 24 17:40
DavidGerard	i suppose lack of corporate sales are big there - that's a huge chunk of ms's market	Oct 24 17:42
Mutex_	or you could of invested your $1000 into RHT at $42 a share when it listed, and be happy with its $28 dollar value today !!	Oct 24 17:42
DavidGerard	boxed copies aren't something ms sells many of at all, they're basically brand awareness and keeping a perception of monopoly in the shops	Oct 24 17:43
Mutex_	well at least they have something to sell.	Oct 24 17:45
DaemonFC	hmmm	Oct 24 17:47
DaemonFC	http://features.csmonitor.com/politics/2009/10/24/republicans-going-rogue-in-upstate-new-york/	Oct 24 17:47
DaemonFC	The Republicans may find themselves in a schism if they lose that race to a third party candidate	Oct 24 17:48
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DaemonFC	their party is breaking up pretty quickly	Oct 24 17:50
Sir_Konrad	bye bye	Oct 24 17:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @wiki_nihiltres Via auto-tsltn of @zhwp, realized nobelprize.org uses some Commons pix :D http://bit.ly/3pYQsn #wikimedia		Oct 24 17:55
DavidGerard	DaemonFC: the trouble is the third-party candidate is from the lunatic wing	Oct 24 17:55
DavidGerard	it'll further entrench the lunatics	Oct 24 17:55
DaemonFC	DavidGerard, That's not a bad thing	Oct 24 17:56
DaemonFC	either he causes a split and the Democrat wins	Oct 24 17:56
DaemonFC	or he wins, the right wing radicals get fired up, and the Republican party splits in two	Oct 24 17:56
DavidGerard	a coupla wingnuts were posting to ubuntu-sounder list	Oct 24 17:56
DavidGerard	the non-americans were trying to translate their responses into sense	Oct 24 17:56
DavidGerard	the words and syntax LOOKED like English, but very few of the words meant anything they were actually using them to mean	Oct 24 17:57
DavidGerard	i mean, sounder is the off-topic list. it's the designated place for bad threads to be sent to die. that some of us are camped out there is for our own amusement.	Oct 24 17:57
DavidGerard	but still. o_0	Oct 24 17:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] #lrl2009 Aq to audience: "Put your hand up if you're standing up"		Oct 24 18:07
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DaemonFC	DavidGerard, I'm glad that Cheney is still making an ass of himself for that matter	Oct 24 18:14
DaemonFC	serves as a kind of constant reminder of how bad the last guys were	Oct 24 18:14
zer0c00l	hey DaemonFC	Oct 24 18:14
zer0c00l	Good after noon (?)	Oct 24 18:15
DaemonFC	My favorite line still has to be "We kept America safe", if you just ignore that tiny little incident on 9-11-01, the fact that Bin Laden got away, the fact that the Taliban came back, the fact that they never did catch the guy that was sending out Anthrax letters, the fact that New Orleans was left underwater and it took weeks for a real rescue effort to get underway.......	Oct 24 18:16
DaemonFC	zer0c00l, 1:14 PM, so yes :)	Oct 24 18:16
Mutex_	but apart from that they did ok right !!!	Oct 24 18:16
DaemonFC	Mutex_, Well, depends on where you would like me to stop really	Oct 24 18:17
DaemonFC	Cheney compared himself to Darth Vader once, which would make Bush "Palpatine" and that's just giving them both too much credit	Oct 24 18:18
Mutex_	yes, im sure you could go on, and include the 10billion per month on a false war in Iraq, or the 11Trillion pissed against the wall, patriot act, FBI spying on it's own people, ...........	Oct 24 18:18
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DaemonFC	$700 billion handed out to banks as a reward for the banks giving out predatory loans and causing the mess	Oct 24 18:19
*DavidGerard goes now		Oct 24 18:19
DaemonFC	as they slash food stamps, medicaid, medicare, and there's no social security raise for this year	Oct 24 18:20
DavidGerard	off to sleep for a bit	Oct 24 18:20
Mutex_	oh there is that as well. but GWB kept the country safe on "his watch".	Oct 24 18:20
DavidGerard	have fun!	Oct 24 18:20
*DavidGerard has quit ("Leaving")		Oct 24 18:20
silner	Is @popey in every channel on IRC :)	Oct 24 18:20
DaemonFC	Mutex_, To be fair though, in any country with a central banking system, money needs only be printed	Oct 24 18:20
popey	heh	Oct 24 18:20
popey	not all silner	Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFC	sometimes it's not even printed, it's just imagined	Oct 24 18:21
silner	Dunno why I did the @ there - windows confusion :)	Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFC	only about 5% of US currency even exists as paper	Oct 24 18:21
Mutex_	the rest is red ink in dept	Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFC	the rest is totally imaginary	Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFC	doesn't physically exist at all	Oct 24 18:21
DaemonFC	if people stop believing in it, it will go away	Oct 24 18:22
Mutex_	until the other countries call in their depts	Oct 24 18:22
DaemonFC	Mutex_, At which point the US government will collapse	Oct 24 18:22
DaemonFC	but another government will set up and declare the last government's debt void	Oct 24 18:22
DaemonFC	if that were to happen	Oct 24 18:23
Mutex_	yes, no fed to bail them out )	Oct 24 18:23
Mutex_	I still find it bizaar that Bush would be elected (first time), and totally unbeliable that he was voted in TWICE, I mean, what were you guys thinking, ???? :)	Oct 24 18:26
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] !emacs guys try M-x butterfly and M-x animate-birthday-present ; Damn just discovered that; :D		Oct 24 18:29
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Guys try M-x butterfly and M-x animate-birthday-present ; Damn just discovered that; :D !emacs		Oct 24 18:29
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DaemonFC	Mutex_, He never got a majority of votes	Oct 24 18:43
DaemonFC	voter fraud and irregularities in the electoral college got him in	Oct 24 18:44
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DaemonFC	One of the comments I made on CNN last year was "What if the Republicans defraud the voters again to get McCain in?"	Oct 24 18:45
DaemonFC	I'm pretty sure they knew it would be close in Florida and Ohio and so they were able to rig the vote tally on a county level in a few states to make it look like Bush won in a close election	Oct 24 18:46
DaemonFC	I'm not convinced that the people behind the vote rigging control the final tally in most states or counties	Oct 24 18:47
DaemonFC	they probably did try to add votes for McCain last year, there were irregularities and 10,000 unexplained extra votes in one Ohio county that went for Bush a couple times	Oct 24 18:47
DaemonFC	so I think they tried to hijack the election in favor of McCain and lost anyway because enough people turned out and voted Obama	Oct 24 18:48
DaemonFC	but the states that are controlled by Republicans intentionally did things to cause 3-4-5 hour lines in areas where minorities would be going to vote or in counties that favored the Democrats	Oct 24 18:48
DaemonFC	the Indiana Republican Party tried to get three counties with lots of black people to have to shut down their early voting sites due to some technicality in the state law	Oct 24 18:49
DaemonFC	the courts ruled against them though	Oct 24 18:49
DaemonFC	pretty much everywhere you see voter fraud or disenfranchisement in the US, it's the Republicans that are behind it, Mutex_	Oct 24 18:50
DaemonFC	that's your answer :)	Oct 24 18:50
schestowitz	popey: you got them playing classical	Oct 24 18:51
DaemonFC	my guess is that McCain really lost with a vote count of a million or so under what was reported and that the Republicans probably succeeded in frustrating a million Democrats into going home without voting	Oct 24 18:52
DaemonFC	that's enough to win a close election	Oct 24 18:52
DaemonFC	the last thing that Premier Voting Systems (Formerly Diebold) wants to do is hand the election to the Republicans and make it look unbelievably easy	Oct 24 18:53
schestowitz	http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/10/mpd-sonata-powerful-audio-player-for.html	Oct 24 18:53
DaemonFC	it's like they're trying to rig a pinball machine, but if you bump it too hard you get a TILT	Oct 24 18:54
schestowitz	DaemonFC: did you see The Power of Nightmares?	Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFC	schestowitz, No	Oct 24 18:54
schestowitz	I'm almost done now with part III (it's 3 hours long)	Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFC	This is though, why I don't ever think that proprietary software should be used on voting machines	Oct 24 18:54
zer0c00l	schestowitz: is that some kind of movie?	Oct 24 18:54
DaemonFC	it makes it very easy to tamper with them with no fingerprints	Oct 24 18:55
zer0c00l	schestowitz: "The power of night mares"	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	DaemonFC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vt-FyuuWlWQ&feature=PlayList&p=5BF86B79B4D1425E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	Try it. You'll enjoy it.	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	That's part 1 of volume 1	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	zer0c00l: watch it also	Oct 24 18:55
zer0c00l	schestowitz: ok	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	It's a high-quality programme	Oct 24 18:55
schestowitz	http://twitter.com/GuamGuy/statuses/5123166433 "Is anyone other than Nokia/Symbian using Symbian code at all? (via @schestowitz) Yes NTT Docomo FOMA-S, plus few Samsung & LG phones."	Oct 24 18:56
schestowitz	Aha!	Oct 24 18:56
schestowitz	http://twitter.com/GuamGuy/statuses/5123193052 "@schestowitz NTT Docomo FOMA-S uses Symbian while FOMA-L uses Linux. Both part of the I-Mode ecosystem.:"	Oct 24 18:57
zer0c00l	DOCOMO ?	Oct 24 18:57
schestowitz	http://twitter.com/OscarB/statuses/5123349188 "@GuamGuy @schestowitz Dont forget Sony Ericsson #Symbian"	Oct 24 18:58
schestowitz	zer0c00l: yes	Oct 24 18:58
schestowitz	Indian, right?	Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00l	we have a network named DOCOMO, which bills per second;	Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00l	schestowitz: yes	Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00l	Tata Docomo	Oct 24 18:58
zer0c00l	schestowitz: NTT DOCOMO is different from indian DOCOMO	Oct 24 18:59
schestowitz	I know	Oct 24 18:59
schestowitz	Why do I think there's also s/t in Japan?	Oct 24 18:59
zer0c00l	http://www.nttdocomo.com/	Oct 24 18:59
schestowitz	Or maybe the CEO was this Japanese lady	Oct 24 19:00
zer0c00l	"The DOCOMO logo is a trademark of NTT DOCOMO, INC. (Japan) in India"	Oct 24 19:01
zer0c00l	http://www.tatadocomo.com/	Oct 24 19:01
zer0c00l	NTT docomo runs tata docomo;	Oct 24 19:01
schestowitz	Aha.	Oct 24 19:01
schestowitz	So I wasn't totally off	Oct 24 19:01
schestowitz	I thought it was Japanese until recently I saw it described as Indian	Oct 24 19:01
schestowitz	ACCESS is also Japanese	Oct 24 19:01
zer0c00l	ok	Oct 24 19:02
zer0c00l	http://www.tatadocomo.com/about-tata-docomo.aspx	Oct 24 19:02
zer0c00l	symbian is a Free software?	Oct 24 19:03
schestowitz	Not sure	Oct 24 19:03
schestowitz	is EPL on the FSF's list?	Oct 24 19:03
zer0c00l	EPL?	Oct 24 19:04
schestowitz	Yes	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	Eclipse	Oct 24 19:05
zer0c00l	ok	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	I'm gonna do some Linux news now	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	Ought to take a few hous	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	*hours	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	Then I'll do some posts	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	Just got back from the gym, had a shower..	Oct 24 19:05
zer0c00l	I thought of English premier league :D	Oct 24 19:05
zer0c00l	lol	Oct 24 19:05
schestowitz	Heh.	Oct 24 19:17
schestowitz	No, I'm not playing much football anymore	Oct 24 19:17
schestowitz	I was a pro goalkepeer for ages, with medals :-)	Oct 24 19:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Wine 1.1.32 is Officially Released http://www.winehq.org/announce/1.1.32 #unix #linux		Oct 24 19:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Day 2009 Descends Upon #Italy http://ur1.ca/eci6		Oct 24 19:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Audiocasts from #Ohio #Linuxfest 2009 and #LugRadio http://www.thesourceshow.org/node/170 http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/118		Oct 24 19:26
zer0c00l	later	Oct 24 19:26
*zer0c00l has quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")		Oct 24 19:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Jamie from ZDNet Calls for #Windows Refunds, Debunks #GNU #Linux #Myths http://ur1.ca/ecic http://ur1.ca/ecif		Oct 24 19:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZaReason Does Well with #GNU #Linux Servers and Expands http://ur1.ca/e95n		Oct 24 19:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Cosmos is Moving to #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/3pPRdb		Oct 24 19:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #BorderGatewayProtocol Defended with #GNU #Linux Variant, with #ZebOS http://ur1.ca/ecj1 #bgp		Oct 24 19:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #XServer 1.7.1 is Released, Picking up Pace http://bit.ly/2rpuI8 #linux #kernelspace		Oct 24 19:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Many New Lists of #GNU #Linux Applications http://ur1.ca/ecj9 http://ur1.ca/ecja http://ur1.ca/ecjb http://ur1.ca/ecjc		Oct 24 19:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Computer #Game #LordsAWar 0.1.6 for #GNU #Linux is Released http://www.linuxgames.com/archives/14282		Oct 24 19:39
oiaohm	Ok local file mirror has kinda gone bonkers. Fedora is in the debain folder and debian is in the fedora folder.	Oct 24 19:39
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schestowitz	Local file mirror?	Oct 24 19:41
oiaohm	To be more correct ISP file mirror that mine replicates off.	Oct 24 19:44
schestowitz	Oh	Oct 24 19:44
schestowitz	Like the ones from Bigpond	Oct 24 19:44
schestowitz	Where they store OOo locally	Oct 24 19:44
oiaohm	Yep	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	Or stored rather	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	They stopped last I learned...	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	Bigpongf-Telstra	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	Microsoft in board	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	Neutrality	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	And they have an OOo rival	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	SaaS	Oct 24 19:45
oiaohm	bigpond has a request system.	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	So conflict of interests	Oct 24 19:45
oiaohm	For there filemirror.	Oct 24 19:45
oiaohm	Most of the time OOo is on there.	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	How many underwater cable does Aussie feed on?	Oct 24 19:45
schestowitz	*cables	Oct 24 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Environment Gets #Clutter , New Journal http://ur1.ca/ecjv http://ur1.ca/ecjx		Oct 24 19:46
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oiaohm	I think 5 schestowitz but I would have to look it up.	Oct 24 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Amarok 2.2.0 a Major Improvement; #KDE Updates http://ur1.ca/ecko http://ur1.ca/eckr http://ur1.ca/ecks		Oct 24 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Foresight #Linux is Coming http://www.ogmaciel.com/?p=742		Oct 24 19:50
oiaohm	Most connect into syndey and perth schestowitz. Basically disconnect 2 citys and that is most of the internet links to australia gone.	Oct 24 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora 12 Looks Fantastic: "It Was My Idea..." http://ur1.ca/e901 http://ur1.ca/ecky		Oct 24 19:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Screenshots of #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 9.10 #ReleaseCandidate http://bit.ly/rUWrA		Oct 24 19:54
Mutex_	I thought the second major internet hub was Adelaide.	Oct 24 19:57
oiaohm	Ok I got it wrong there are 4 fiber link points to australia. I was counting tansmania as the 5 yes its a under water cable. 9 internet linking cables. And 1 just linking out to new Calendona	Oct 24 19:57
oiaohm	That is land line hub Mutex_	Oct 24 19:57
oiaohm	Not international	Oct 24 19:57
Mutex_	ok,	Oct 24 19:57
oiaohm	Perth is too far way from most of the population to be used as the second land line hub	Oct 24 19:58
Mutex_	we do have a domestic fibre backbone at least along the east coast.	Oct 24 19:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #gnu #Linux #Mint 7 with Older #KDE Reviewed and Liked http://bit.ly/1anq6X		Oct 24 20:00
oiaohm	The domestic fiber reachs all the way accross to perth Mutex_	Oct 24 20:00
Mutex_	yes, I expected it would.	Oct 24 20:00
oiaohm	Up threw the center is still a bit light on.	Oct 24 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #EInk #Devices (like #EReaders ) Target #Linux with #ARM http://ur1.ca/e9i9		Oct 24 20:01
Mutex_	yes, alice has a good connection, but further north is gets shaky, until Darwin.	Oct 24 20:01
Mutex_	we also have satellite services so you can get online anywhere in Aus if you need too.	Oct 24 20:02
oiaohm	http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/computing/networks/high-speed-down-under The population map explains the issue.	Oct 24 20:03
DaemonFC	I've come up with a new scheme to get myself off my daily coffee and soda	Oct 24 20:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Gadget ( #Swindle ) Boosts #Amazon 's Profits http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8321583.stm		Oct 24 20:04
DaemonFC	I set up an auto transfer from checking to savings of $3.09 every day	Oct 24 20:04
Mutex_	2.7 people per square kilometer :)	Oct 24 20:04
Mutex_	not many of us :)	Oct 24 20:04
DaemonFC	price of 1 large coffee and 1 2 liter of soda	Oct 24 20:04
oiaohm	Look at the map.	Oct 24 20:04
oiaohm	Its funny Mutex_	Oct 24 20:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android #Linux Gets the Blessings of the US #Military http://ur1.ca/ecm2 #linuxwars		Oct 24 20:05
oiaohm	Large percentage of Australia is less tha 1 person per square km.	Oct 24 20:05
Mutex_	lol, yea "big empty"	Oct 24 20:05
oiaohm	By Australia you would say humans like to live in popluations great than 10 000 people per km.	Oct 24 20:06
DaemonFC	Microsoft shares are up 5% today	Oct 24 20:06
DaemonFC	seems like only yesterday that Windows 95 was causing a stock split	Oct 24 20:07
DaemonFC	and now all the launch of Windows 7 can do is bump them up 5 points?	Oct 24 20:07
oiaohm	5 percent can be part of the normal weely swing.	Oct 24 20:07
schestowitz	Canada is similar	Oct 24 20:07
DaemonFC	I actually really liked the copy of Windows 95 OSR 2.1 that came with the PC I bought back then	Oct 24 20:09
DaemonFC	USB and FAT32 support	Oct 24 20:09
schestowitz	But it's mostly less inhibitable in winter.., worse than Finland	Oct 24 20:09
DaemonFC	I kept it around on various boxes for quite a while	Oct 24 20:09
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schestowitz	DaemonFC: MSFT is not up today	Oct 24 20:09
schestowitz	There's no trading today	Oct 24 20:10
oiaohm	Most of australia is desert country dry only reason out there is mining.	Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFC	the retail Windows 95 had no USB support and was limited to 2 GB hard disks	Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFC	the OEM Service Releases were only with a new PC, but there was not activation, o you could run it on anything you wanted	Oct 24 20:10
schestowitz	oiaohm: surely it can be transformed	Oct 24 20:10
Mutex_	it's funny Win95 seemed ok, but still not as good as AmigaOS, that I has since 1988	Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFC	*no	Oct 24 20:10
schestowitz	Many countries did just that	Oct 24 20:10
schestowitz	UAE	Oct 24 20:10
DaemonFC	Mutex_, Windows 98 was really just Windows 95 OSR 2.1 with Internet Explorer welded onto it	Oct 24 20:11
DaemonFC	:)	Oct 24 20:11
*schestowitz back to news		Oct 24 20:11
DaemonFC	IE 3 came with Windows 95 OSR 2.1, but you could edit a few setup files and it wouldn't get installed	Oct 24 20:11
omar_	Hi all	Oct 24 20:11
DaemonFC	or you could grab the IE 3 installer, install it, and then uninstall it with the new Add/Remove entry	Oct 24 20:11
Mutex_	we dont have the water inland, there is a proposal of a huge dam in the north, to hold the water from the wet season, and the "snowy river scheme" was originally designed to pipe water inland from the great divide.	Oct 24 20:12
DaemonFC	the craptacular "shell update" was an optional part of IE 4	Oct 24 20:12
oiaohm	schestowitz: Thinking before the natvies got here with fire the center of australia was like the amazon. Lot of work could turn it back.	Oct 24 20:12
DaemonFC	I made the mistake of trying to try it out and it rendered my system unusable	Oct 24 20:12
Mutex_	that is exactly right oiaohm, and not that many people here know that.	Oct 24 20:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Subnotebooks Running #GNU #Linux Hey Nice #Meshing Technology http://bit.ly/Tfrr0		Oct 24 20:13
cubezzz	AmigaDOS was better than Win95, I agree	Oct 24 20:13
oiaohm	And I do mean exactly like the amazon.	Oct 24 20:13
DaemonFC	oiaohm, IE and the shell are more or less separated again if you install IE 7 or 8 on XP, or use Vista or 7	Oct 24 20:13
Mutex_	win95 was the reason I started using Linux	Oct 24 20:13
oiaohm	Clear the trees lose everything schestowitz	Oct 24 20:13
DaemonFC	Microsoft basically admitted with that that IE's shell integration was causing a lot of exploits	Oct 24 20:14
cubezzz	how does one restart X in Fedora 11, I don't seem to be able to ctrl-alt-backspace	Oct 24 20:14
Mutex_	with megafourna	Oct 24 20:14
Mutex_	giant kangaroos and such	Oct 24 20:14
oiaohm	Yep megafourna scarly large native animails.	Oct 24 20:14
DaemonFC	cubezzz, By editing Xorg.conf	Oct 24 20:15
Mutex_	and probably "drop bears" :)	Oct 24 20:15
DaemonFC	some idiots apaprently were somehow accidentally hitting ctrl-alt-backspace by mistake	Oct 24 20:15
DaemonFC	:P	Oct 24 20:15
cubezzz	kind of hard to do by accident	Oct 24 20:15
DaemonFC	cubezzz, That was the official answer anyway	Oct 24 20:16
DaemonFC	I don't see how you would	Oct 24 20:16
oiaohm	Lot of the old native stories about running into huge native creates twice the high of normal humans for creatures that are barely 30 cm tall now are most likely true by the bones that have been found.	Oct 24 20:16
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cubezzz	the hobbit theory?	Oct 24 20:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Benchmarks Demonstrate That #GNU #Linux Gets Faster Over Time http://ur1.ca/ecn5		Oct 24 20:17
Mutex_	the hobbit is in indonesia	Oct 24 20:17
oiaohm	Australia did the reverse cubezzz	Oct 24 20:17
oiaohm	Small creatures ended up huge after the dinos disappeared.	Oct 24 20:17
oiaohm	Then man appeared and the reduced back.	Oct 24 20:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Sub-notebooks ALlve and Kicking (Especially Outside US) http://ur1.ca/ecn9		Oct 24 20:18
cubezzz	the squirrels around here seem to be getting bigger	Oct 24 20:18
Mutex_	we still have some quite big birds here, and if you ever meet up with a 7 foot tall "big red" you might be introuble.	Oct 24 20:18
oiaohm	Its a bit like the salt water crocs here we have not seen any need full sized in over 60 years.	Oct 24 20:18
Mutex_	they are protected now, so their numbers (and size) is certainly increasing nowdays.	Oct 24 20:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Review of #FreeSoftware #Phone #VanAccess IP0020 http://bit.ly/36bPjr #citadel #asterisk		Oct 24 20:20
oiaohm	There is a status of one of the largest salt water crocs caught. It is god darn scary. You could basically lay in it mouth and it could close aroudn you not taking a bit out of you.	Oct 24 20:20
oiaohm	and that was only killed 100 years ago.	Oct 24 20:20
cubezzz	one weird thing I don't understand is why the passenger pigeon went extinct	Oct 24 20:20
cubezzz	eventually there were millions of them	Oct 24 20:20
cubezzz	evidently	Oct 24 20:21
oiaohm	There have been very few large flying things.	Oct 24 20:21
cubezzz	how big was the pterodactyl?	Oct 24 20:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Adobe Claims to be a Friend of #FreeSoftware (No Kidding!) http://ur1.ca/ecni #schizo		Oct 24 20:22
oiaohm	The scary part about most salt water crocs is most die from starvation or desease or humans. None have been recored dieing from old age.	Oct 24 20:22
oiaohm	Ok or other crocs	Oct 24 20:23
oiaohm	Basically no old age deaths.	Oct 24 20:23
Mutex_	very few things in nature die from old age.	Oct 24 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenDatabaseAlliance and #MySQL 's Vocation in the News http://ur1.ca/ecnk http://ur1.ca/ecnl		Oct 24 20:24
oiaohm	Zoos never have recorded a salt water croc dieing from old age either Mutex_	Oct 24 20:24
cubezzz	interesting	Oct 24 20:24
Mutex_	oh ok, yes, interesting, they are the top preditor so you would expect them to last, but in the wild you get old and slow, you cant feed yourself.	Oct 24 20:24
oiaohm	By the size of some of the old salt water crocs killed by humans and croc general growth rate. They could possiable live for over 1000 years.	Oct 24 20:25
oiaohm	And that would kinda explain why we have not seen any die from old age.	Oct 24 20:26
*omar_ is now known as Omar87		Oct 24 20:26
Omar87	Hi all.	Oct 24 20:26
oiaohm	That is the thing Mutex_ larger a croc is the faster it can attack from water.	Oct 24 20:27
cubezzz	there was that whale with the 18-century harpoon stuck in it	Oct 24 20:27
Mutex_	I think the oldest known living thing, is the giant turtles, I think they last 200 or 300 years. not exactly sure.	Oct 24 20:27
cubezzz	so whales can live for centuries, not too surprising	Oct 24 20:27
cubezzz	no, giant clam is at least 400 years	Oct 24 20:27
cubezzz	for animal	Oct 24 20:27
oiaohm	Problem is we are not 100 percent sure of how to age a croc. And we killed all the really old ones and only realy measured there size.	Oct 24 20:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of Free #CMS Software, #Drupal Celebrates Big Wins http://ur1.ca/ecnx http://ur1.ca/ecny http://ur1.ca/ecnz http://ur1.ca/eco0		Oct 24 20:29
cubezzz	http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071028100032.htm	Oct 24 20:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware and #GNU #Linux Are Changing the IT Landscape http://ur1.ca/eco3		Oct 24 20:30
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oiaohm	whales have a lot faster growth rate than crocs cubezzz	Oct 24 20:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice 4 Kids in #Review http://ur1.ca/eco6 http://ur1.ca/eco7		Oct 24 20:31
cubezzz	I can believe it	Oct 24 20:31
oiaohm	Killing the whales that humans did also took away a large croc food source.	Oct 24 20:31
oiaohm	you have to remember salt water crocs are called salt water crocs because they are sea going.	Oct 24 20:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Open Sauce CEO Bashes #Proprietary Software in #Forbes Magazine blog http://ur1.ca/ebn9		Oct 24 20:32
*PeterKraus has quit (Client Quit)		Oct 24 20:32
oiaohm	Only fairly large ones go out into the sea. Other wises sharks are a problem for them.	Oct 24 20:32
cubezzz	I imagine a giant clam in cold water would grow even slower	Oct 24 20:32
Mutex_	yes, thats an interesting article cubezzz	Oct 24 20:33
JPerlow	I've had giant clam. It's tasty.	Oct 24 20:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware conference Comes to #Portland , Linux.conf.au Arrives Soon http://ur1.ca/ecoh http://ur1.ca/ecoi		Oct 24 20:34
oiaohm	Adobe is a friend to open source in a way. They have always ended up documenting there fileformats of there own free will. And never done anything agressive.	Oct 24 20:34
oiaohm	could they been more helpful at times yes. But You cannot have everything.	Oct 24 20:34
cubezzz	yeah, I just don't see Adobe as FOSS friendly	Oct 24 20:37
oiaohm	Have they done anything that is unfriendly majorally cubezzz	Oct 24 20:38
JPerlow	by definition, no corporation which produces commercial, closed source-software is "friendly" to Free Software. Free Software classifies this as "unethical".	Oct 24 20:38
oiaohm	So you hate redhat JPerlow	Oct 24 20:38
cubezzz	well let me put it this way	Oct 24 20:38
cubezzz	gnash has a looong way to go	Oct 24 20:38
JPerlow	no. I am simply stating the Free Software definition.	Oct 24 20:38
JPerlow	by definition, Free Software would also have to classify Redhat as an unethical company.	Oct 24 20:39
cubezzz	there are degrees	Oct 24 20:39
cubezzz	let's not go all black & white here	Oct 24 20:39
oiaohm	adobe works by open spec JPerlow	Oct 24 20:39
JPerlow	Not all of their software is open.	Oct 24 20:40
oiaohm	So even that you don't have source code of application you can still access the data.	Oct 24 20:40
oiaohm	You will find all formats of adobe are open spec JPerlow	Oct 24 20:40
JPerlow	PDF was only opened recently.	Oct 24 20:41
oiaohm	Define recently.	Oct 24 20:41
JPerlow	2008.	Oct 24 20:41
oiaohm	LOL	Oct 24 20:41
oiaohm	spec to PDF was released in 1992	Oct 24 20:41
JPerlow	not the most current implementation	Oct 24 20:41
oiaohm	xpdf used the spec to create it.	Oct 24 20:41
Mutex_	not even all conicals SW is open either.	Oct 24 20:41
cubezzz	it's still binary blob city re: flash	Oct 24 20:41
oiaohm	2008 was just a update to spec they release a update every 2 years.	Oct 24 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Licensing Question: Can #FreeSoftware be 'Less Strict' Than #OpenSource ? http://blogs.fsfe.org/adridg/?p=369		Oct 24 20:42
oiaohm	flash issues are more complex. Lot of the items of flash that are not open spec adobe has licenced from others.	Oct 24 20:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Government of #Kerala on Track with #FreeSoftware , #SanFrancisco Awakens http://ur1.ca/ecpa http://ur1.ca/ecpb		Oct 24 20:43
oiaohm	So 2010 we should see another pdf spec update.	Oct 24 20:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Creativity of Crowds Validates #FreeSoftware Model http://bit.ly/15Nld9??blogid=88&entry_id=49939		Oct 24 20:44
cubezzz	looking for kweather for fedora 11	Oct 24 20:44
JPerlow	oiaohm it was not an ISO standard until july of 2008.	Oct 24 20:45
oiaohm	Yet spec was released long before that JPerlow	Oct 24 20:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Interview with Ruby on Rails' Father, #ZendCon Coverage http://ur1.ca/ecph http://ur1.ca/ecpj #dhh		Oct 24 20:46
oiaohm	The condition on use of the spec was not to release programs with the goal to bipass the pdf copy protection.	Oct 24 20:46
JPerlow	and until recently the third party implementations with the most recent support were closed	Oct 24 20:46
oiaohm	So what is xpdf JPerlow	Oct 24 20:46
JPerlow	a front end to ghostscript	Oct 24 20:47
oiaohm	The first implementation other than adobe reader.	Oct 24 20:47
oiaohm	LOL	Oct 24 20:47
cubezzz	kpdf too	Oct 24 20:47
JPerlow	talk to the guy who runs artifex and see if he's a Free Software advocate.	Oct 24 20:47
JPerlow	lol	Oct 24 20:47
oiaohm	xpdf translates from pdf to ps	Oct 24 20:47
oiaohm	xpdf predates ghostscript being able to process pdf.	Oct 24 20:48
oiaohm	xpdf was the first program build from the released spec by adobe. Most windows users are not aware of it because it never ran on windows.	Oct 24 20:49
oiaohm	Yes there have been a lot of closed source windows programs to render pdfs.	Oct 24 20:49
oiaohm	These days even gimp opens pdf files on Linux.	Oct 24 20:50
oiaohm	JPerlow: you have been reading too much stuff writen by MS to try to discredit pdf as a open standard so they could get xps up.	Oct 24 20:51
JPerlow	um, no.	Oct 24 20:53
JPerlow	I've talked with the guy that founded Artifex which created Ghostscript.	Oct 24 20:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ideas on Escaping Lock-in in #FogComputing http://ur1.ca/ecq9 http://ur1.ca/ecqb		Oct 24 20:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Telecom #AstroTurf Gone Botched http://techdirt.com/articles/20091022/1204566640.shtml		Oct 24 20:55
oiaohm	You are aware that xpdf tools can operate without ghostscript installed.	Oct 24 20:55
oiaohm	Note tools not viewer JPerlow	Oct 24 20:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Disney Meets #DRM Outrage http://techdirt.com/articles/20091022/1232356641.shtml		Oct 24 20:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NetNeutrality Risk Strikes Again http://ur1.ca/ecqk		Oct 24 20:56
oiaohm	Like converting pdf to ps for printing.	Oct 24 20:56
JPerlow	show me a 100 percent adobe PDF 1.7 compliant tool suite that is Free	Oct 24 20:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IntellectualMonopolies Used Against Shopkeeper http://bit.ly/2xHpH3		Oct 24 20:58
oiaohm	http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/home.html Has for a while JPerlow	Oct 24 20:58
oiaohm	It provides a support lib allowing other pdf views to have the same.	Oct 24 20:58
JPerlow	its not 100 percent compliant with the PDF that adobe generates with their own engine	Oct 24 20:59
oiaohm	With the PDF part it is.	Oct 24 20:59
oiaohm	FDF and other parts no so much.	Oct 24 20:59
oiaohm	But they are different standards JPerlow	Oct 24 21:00
oiaohm	adobe documents from there engine contain 4 standards on adverage in a PDF file.	Oct 24 21:01
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux is Promoted in #China by the #Government http://ur1.ca/ecro http://ur1.ca/ecrs		Oct 24 21:10
oiaohm	Hmm Research & Development section of MS is down by 200 million on the quater.	Oct 24 21:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Latvia May Move to #FreeSoftware ! http://bit.ly/8ON4		Oct 24 21:12
oiaohm	http://www.blendernation.com/thai-government-releases-free-blendergimp-ebook/ thai goverment updating books about open source software.	Oct 24 21:12
Mutex_	R&D historically is not the money maker, it generally an expense.	Oct 24 21:13
JPerlow	it's down at every major tech company.	Oct 24 21:13
JPerlow	pretty much across the board.	Oct 24 21:13
oiaohm	No R&D no new products. Mutex_	Oct 24 21:13
oiaohm	List the tech companies it is down JPerlow	Oct 24 21:16
Mutex_	SUN	Oct 24 21:17
JPerlow	AMD	Oct 24 21:17
JPerlow	Intel	Oct 24 21:17
oiaohm	Google is holding level. where they would have normally increased R&D expending they have not. IBM has gone up. HP is holding level.	Oct 24 21:17
schestowitz	ISO is corrupt, JPerlow	Oct 24 21:17
schestowitz	It doesn't matter much what it did re PDF	Oct 24 21:17
schestowitz	And you're lying about the FSF	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	Describing it as anti-companies	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	Typical smear	Oct 24 21:18
JPerlow	lol	Oct 24 21:18
oiaohm	AMD and Intel both are facing heavy competion from ARM.	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	It's neither against companies nor money making	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	It's pro ethics and control by customers	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	Funny, eh?	Oct 24 21:18
oiaohm	Combind with lack of x86 sales due to MS flop JPerlow	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	I can actually pay someone who repects my freedom	Oct 24 21:18
schestowitz	Many people would pay Red Hat	Oct 24 21:19
schestowitz	Cause it's better than paying to licence some blobs	Oct 24 21:19
schestowitz	Red Hat's core is same as gratis (centos)	Oct 24 21:19
oiaohm	SUN most of the staff being layed off are not R&D but sales and marketing. Mutex_	Oct 24 21:19
schestowitz	anyhoo...	Oct 24 21:19
schestowitz	Back in a mo	Oct 24 21:19
JPerlow	sorry to have disturbed your afternoon nap, no problem.	Oct 24 21:19
schestowitz	JPerlow: why so angry? :-)	Oct 24 21:20
schestowitz	I just need to try to do the links quickly enough]	Oct 24 21:20
JPerlow	I'm not angry :)	Oct 24 21:20
JPerlow	why should I be angry	Oct 24 21:20
oiaohm	Merge always costs some staff as well Mutex_	Oct 24 21:20
JPerlow	I enjoyed your link to my ZDNet post yesterday.	Oct 24 21:21
oiaohm	Can you list any that have reduced there R&D that either are not being taken over or have been hurt by MS flop.	Oct 24 21:21
Mutex_	"MS flop" ??	Oct 24 21:22
oiaohm	Nokia had a bad run but there R&D has not reduced.	Oct 24 21:22
oiaohm	Intel and AMD both geared up for huge sales from Vista. Both ended up having a over supply of chips. Ram makers had the same problem.	Oct 24 21:23
oiaohm	Most of the crunch in the IT world started before the money system turned bad.	Oct 24 21:24
Mutex_	plus that little thing called a "dot bomb"	Oct 24 21:25
oiaohm	Issue MS has the market is saturated. Most people who need a computer with a OS already have a computer.	Oct 24 21:25
oiaohm	This would have happened with or without the downturn.	Oct 24 21:26
JPerlow	oiaohm do you actually work for a large corporation or have anything to do with large IT budgets?	Oct 24 21:26
oiaohm	I am highered from time to time by large corporations to clean up messes and find secuirty issues. This puts me in the very privilaged location to look at all data on there systems.	Oct 24 21:28
oiaohm	Of course under NDA JPerlow	Oct 24 21:29
JPerlow	under NDA?	Oct 24 21:29
oiaohm	Non Disclosure Agreements	Oct 24 21:30
JPerlow	are you saying you work under NDA, or that you would only say who you work for under NDA?	Oct 24 21:30
oiaohm	Doing secuirty auditing is always done under NDA. Its just the way those jobs are. You find faults you must to leak information to others. You see stuff in the process you must not tell anyone what you saw.	Oct 24 21:32
JPerlow	In other words you do nothing which involves making financial decsions at a C-seat level.	Oct 24 21:34
oiaohm	Not exacatly.	Oct 24 21:34
JPerlow	So therefore you have zero insight as to how large organizations spend money on IT.	Oct 24 21:35
oiaohm	Remember part of the process is a risk assessment on the new system before it deployed. People like me are not that impressesed with Windows 7.	Oct 24 21:35
Mutex_	oimohm so you would be able to hack my Win 7 box if I gave you my IP address ?	Oct 24 21:36
oiaohm	Yes I don't do the final yes or no and sign over the money.	Oct 24 21:36
oiaohm	But does not mean I am not asked if it is worth it or not JPerlow.	Oct 24 21:37
oiaohm	Mutex_: There is more than just remote cracking to worry about. It would be simpler to have you visit a web site that is targeting particular weaknesses than trying to go through firewalls.	Oct 24 21:38
Mutex_	so the simple answer is NO you cannot hack my Win 7 box if i give you my IP,, ok	Oct 24 21:39
oiaohm	Not exact no.	Oct 24 21:39
oiaohm	There are Linux firewalls and other things in the middle that makes it tricky Mutex_	Oct 24 21:39
oiaohm	They will filter out damaged packets Windows 7 is weak to.	Oct 24 21:40
oiaohm	Basiclaly If I have direct network access to your Windows 7 its take able.	Oct 24 21:43
oiaohm	In the same kinds of ways Vista and XP are.	Oct 24 21:43
Mutex_	I would like to see that :)	Oct 24 21:48
oiaohm	The recent smb2 one is classical. attempted dereference of an out-of-bounds memory location. Its a buffer overflow. If running on a old processor without NX or with NX disable its take able about 1 in 50 attempts.	Oct 24 21:52
oiaohm	Yes its also how many times am I allows to crash the machine before getting in.	Oct 24 21:53
oiaohm	How the crashes happen the regestry can be mal written to disk.	Oct 24 21:55
Mutex_	ill remeber that the next time my machine starts crashing time after time after time, I might then have to assume something is wrong !!	Oct 24 21:55
oiaohm	So even if attack does not get in the machine still be turned into a paper weight causing downtime.	Oct 24 21:55
oiaohm	People always think its if the system gets breached is the only critical thing.	Oct 24 21:56
oiaohm	Two things are critical. Number 1 machine stays running. Number 2 it don't get breached.	Oct 24 21:56
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oiaohm	Mutex_: windows uses get use to 1 or 2 crashes a hour.	Oct 24 22:05
Mutex_	what ??? your joking right, um ever used windows yourself.	Oct 24 22:05
oiaohm	They normally put it down to windows is just play up today.	Oct 24 22:06
oiaohm	I did it as a test for a business to see how long before computer issues would be reported.	Oct 24 22:06
Mutex_	you do realise you are talking to people who actually use the product you speak of, and they are all wondering what you are doing wrong. !	Oct 24 22:07
oiaohm	Over 3 in a hour you would get reaction.	Oct 24 22:07
oiaohm	Quickly.	Oct 24 22:07
_Hicham_	completely agree with oiaohm	Oct 24 22:07
Mutex_	well how do I manage to get months uptime on this little old laptop running windows ? what am i doing wrong. ?	Oct 24 22:08
Mutex_	how come none of my machines ever crash,	Oct 24 22:08
oiaohm	I did not say that windows could not get months of uptime.	Oct 24 22:09
_Hicham_	because u don't use them	Oct 24 22:09
oiaohm	Windows users just seam not to report the crashes.	Oct 24 22:09
Mutex_	funny im sure you said "windows users get 2 to 3 crashes an hour".	Oct 24 22:09
oiaohm	Even when you know they are happening.	Oct 24 22:09
oiaohm	left out a word Mutex_	Oct 24 22:10
Mutex_	so im not using my computer now ?? gee I was sure I was using my computer now,,,,, go figure	Oct 24 22:10
oiaohm	use	Oct 24 22:10
oiaohm	Windows users get use to 1 to 2 crashes an hour.	Oct 24 22:10
oiaohm	They will tollerate that ammout without reporting.	Oct 24 22:10
Mutex_	im sorry, thats just wrong, and you know it.	Oct 24 22:11
oiaohm	I am not wrong.	Oct 24 22:11
oiaohm	The will get sick of it if it lasts more than a day.	Oct 24 22:12
Mutex_	well if you get that many crashes an hour, mabey your in the wrong game.	Oct 24 22:12
oiaohm	This was a test to find out when the reporting would happen.	Oct 24 22:12
oiaohm	Mac users would report on the 3 crash in the day.	Oct 24 22:12
oiaohm	Almost 100 percent dependably.	Oct 24 22:13
oiaohm	Mutex_: this is base line data to know how much of an attack would be invisible.	Oct 24 22:15
Mutex_	oh ok,	Oct 24 22:15
oiaohm	Linux and Unix users are normally about equal.	Oct 24 22:15
oiaohm	Little bit better than mac. 2 crashes on adverage.	Oct 24 22:15
oiaohm	We asked lot of the windows users why they were not reporting. Common answer was a stupid one we need to get work done.	Oct 24 22:16
Mutex_	mission critical stuff like SCADA systems will get a response first time it crashes, if it EVER does.	Oct 24 22:16
oiaohm	But that has a policy to that effect right Mutex_	Oct 24 22:17
oiaohm	If you leave them without policy you will get these kinds of numbers.	Oct 24 22:17
Mutex_	ofcourse. SCADA system have a policy for everything.	Oct 24 22:17
Mutex_	It's called Quality Assurance.	Oct 24 22:17
oiaohm	I was shocked my self that windows users could tolerate about 8 hours of reboots costing most of the productive time in the hour.	Oct 24 22:18
Mutex_	they are also designed fail safe, so a crash does not affect the system as a whole	Oct 24 22:18
oiaohm	2 reboots is basically 40 mins at least in the hour when the computer is not usable.	Oct 24 22:19
oiaohm	Even more shocking was that the penny was not dropping that they were not getting there work done because the computer was not running to do it.	Oct 24 22:20
oiaohm	So getting the machine fixed would get there work done quickly.	Oct 24 22:21
oiaohm	The thing that worries me is how much productive time is lost to this tollerence that windows users have developed.	Oct 24 22:22
oiaohm	I guess doing SCADA you don't get to run human tests like this Mutex_	Oct 24 22:24
Mutex_	no it seems scada users dont have that issue, and I actually dont think windows users are very tolerant at all to crashes. They are infact very very rare these days, (and by these days i mean the last 10 years).	Oct 24 22:25
oiaohm	Test was only done a year ago Mutex_	Oct 24 22:26
oiaohm	Part of the issue we believe is that in a comperate world they don't want to be blamed for doing something wrong to cause the crash.	Oct 24 22:27
Mutex_	IMO thats a crazy test that no one in their right mind would allow to be done, "come in and crash my employees computers" and hope you dont screw anything up. There is NO WAY that would be allowed in anything important.	Oct 24 22:28
oiaohm	With SCADA something goes wrong you don't report it you are dead. If you did something wrong and you report you are only minorally dead.	Oct 24 22:28
Mutex_	SCADA system operators dont need to report failures, something fails the system automatically pages a tech, who will dial in and fix it.	Oct 24 22:29
oiaohm	Workers about to be retrenced doing retraining make great test subjects Mutex_	Oct 24 22:29
oiaohm	Of course the test subjects were not doing anything important for the business.	Oct 24 22:30
oiaohm	Reason why its hard to do the tests and why they only happen about once every 5 years.	Oct 24 22:30
oiaohm	Yes the information is used to effect policy and staff training.	Oct 24 22:31
Mutex_	so mabey the "users" are biased, and dont give a rats, and knowing they are just doing "busy work" would tend not to put as high a value on the failurs, and only just "starting" the job, they may think the machines of this company are just crap.	Oct 24 22:32
Mutex_	To me, it's not a very satisfactory analysis.	Oct 24 22:32
Mutex_	what about a AutoCAD users, loses 2 hours work because his computer crashes, he'll be in the IT depts face in SECONDS.	Oct 24 22:33
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] The Weirdest Clouds that You'll Ever See http://ur1.ca/ecy5		Oct 24 22:44
schestowitz	Hi, _Hicham_	Oct 24 22:51
_Hicham_	Hi Lord Schestowitz	Oct 24 22:51
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oiaohm	Mutex_: particular user groups are more touchy. Autocad users are about the same as apple and linux users. The freak event allowance.	Oct 24 22:56
oiaohm	The idea that a computer crashes it departments always get told is wrong.	Oct 24 22:57
oiaohm	You don't put run of the mill hardware infrount of Autocad users if you value you life either.	Oct 24 22:59
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schestowitz	heh. Skip to 1:05: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SP6Wry9LJE&NR=1	Oct 24 23:04
schestowitz	This dude thinks humans have been here for 20 million years?	Oct 24 23:04
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_Hicham_	i have been here for 1 billion years	Oct 24 23:14
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schestowitz	Another nice video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zzsg0yEH4s&feature=PlayList&p=42B8A475AB3E71CF&index=0&playnext=1	Oct 24 23:25
schestowitz	_Hicham_: so we're the same age !1	Oct 24 23:26
schestowitz	JPerlow: re http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11423	Oct 24 23:29
schestowitz	How much do you know about likewise vs samba?	Oct 24 23:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Obama ignores that banks are not lending, keeping their money with the fed. @whitehouse #bailout		Oct 24 23:33
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