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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 1st, 2010

01 00:00:01 *Balrog (~Balrog@2002:4a6d:3979:0:222:41ff:fe21:e8cc) has joined #boycottnovell
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz You referring to the "Brain" game? If so, yes. It's festering in there upon install. #monoMar 01 00:00
*_Goblin (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 00:00
_Goblinstuff twitter for conversations....Mar 01 00:01
_Goblinwell, spent a bit of time with 10.04 now....Mar 01 00:02
schestowitzHey, _GoblinMar 01 00:02
_Goblinhi!Mar 01 00:02
schestowitz_Goblin: got screenshot of it?Mar 01 00:02
schestowitzI'd like to show it in BNMar 01 00:02
_Goblinwhat 10.04 or the "brain game"?Mar 01 00:02
_Goblinbrain games gone....I can re-install if you wish.Mar 01 00:03
_Goblin10.04 has a pic on my twitpic...but its just one of Yahoo search.Mar 01 00:03
_GoblinI must say though, 10.04 alpha 3 is already showing great improvements over 9.10Mar 01 00:04
_Goblinin terms of performance...Mar 01 00:04
sebsebseb_Goblin:  DaemonFC  jono_  I am reading this what a great read it seems http://www.starryhope.com/linux/2010/confessions-of-an-ubuntu-fanboy/Mar 01 00:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Confessions of an Ubuntu Fanboy - Starry Hope .::. Size~: 84.05 KBMar 01 00:04
_Goblinputting aside Mono and brain games, it's certainly encouraging seeing it so stable and fast and only in alpha 3Mar 01 00:04
_GoblinI feel though for Ubuntu to be considered by the masses it needs to sort its aesthetics out...for me I never use a default theme of any distro, but as Microsoft realized early on, if you want to attract a mainstream audience, it needs to look pretty.Mar 01 00:06
schestowitz_Goblin: ahaMar 01 00:07
schestowitzHow many games in there in total?Mar 01 00:07
sebsebseb_Goblin: Yes the theme is important, it needs to look good!Mar 01 00:07
_Goblinstandby...just looking at my other rig....Mar 01 00:08
bruce89gcc may have a part in that possibly maybeMar 01 00:08
sebsebsebschestowitz: ok it uses Mono, however this is actsually the first time they have a game that doesn't totally suck in the default installMar 01 00:08
sebsebsebbefore it was just the Gnome gamesMar 01 00:08
sebsebsebwhich suckMar 01 00:08
bruce89how so?Mar 01 00:08
_Goblinyou have solitaireMar 01 00:08
_Goblinthe brain gameMar 01 00:09
_Goblinmine sweeper...Mar 01 00:09
sebsebsebbruce89: Windows XP comes with better default games than Ubuntu/GnomeMar 01 00:09
_Goblinsome sort of word gameMar 01 00:09
sebsebsebI mean how XP does Freecell and suchMar 01 00:09
MinceRshould ubuntu install Nexuiz by default? :>Mar 01 00:09
sebsebsebMinceR: noMar 01 00:09
sebsebsebMinceR: they need games that are 100% family friendly by defaultMar 01 00:09
_GoblinI think it was originally 5 or 6...although Ive removed some...Mar 01 00:09
bruce89there's a gnome-game freecellMar 01 00:09
sebsebsebbruce89: yes I played it or whateverMar 01 00:10
sebsebsebXP still wins for the card games how they are doneMar 01 00:10
MinceRhow's that going to help with the "games which suck" problem? :>Mar 01 00:10
_Goblinsebsebseb: but who plays those soppy run once games?Mar 01 00:10
sebsebsebVista they change  them, and it's like uhMar 01 00:10
bruce89gnome-games isn't really supposed to be exciting or whateverMar 01 00:10
bruce89although the use of clutter in them may helpMar 01 00:10
_Goblinsebsebseb: I will conceed and say Solitaire should stay...the rest though? is there any need?Mar 01 00:10
sebsebsebbruce89: clutter?Mar 01 00:10
sebsebseb_Goblin: what would be good is if when installing Ubuntu, it asked people what  they wanted to installMar 01 00:11
_Goblinmany if mono was removed along with its few dependent packages, then there would be enough room for gimp?Mar 01 00:11
_Goblin*maybeMar 01 00:11
bruce89there's an exampleMar 01 00:11
sebsebseb_Goblin: I am using Banshee right now,  oh no it uses MonoMar 01 00:11
sebsebsebheh hehMar 01 00:11
sebsebseb_Goblin: looks better than RythomboxMar 01 00:11
_Goblin3.2 of OO is there though....so Im quite happy.Mar 01 00:11
sebsebseb_Goblin: welcome to commercilization and suchMar 01 00:12
bruce89sMar 01 00:12
sebsebsebmore apps will be made with MonoMar 01 00:12
sebsebsebbruce89: yes sMar 01 00:12
MinceRs?Mar 01 00:12
*sebsebseb is now known as zebzebzebMar 01 00:12
_Goblinsebsebseb: talking of Mono, before I removed Mupen64, I ran a little test....did you know that an n64 emu windows binary running through Wine performs better than a native linux Mono dependent one?Mar 01 00:12
MinceRz?Mar 01 00:13
zebzebzeb_Goblin: sometimes apps work better in Wine, than Windows yesMar 01 00:13
zebzebzebMinceR: bruce89 can explainMar 01 00:13
_GoblinIm not a charity....so why should I give away CPU cycles to Novell?Mar 01 00:13
MinceRi hope he will :>Mar 01 00:13
bruce89not reallyMar 01 00:13
MinceR:(Mar 01 00:13
zebzebzebMinceR: last nightMar 01 00:14
bruce89zebzebzeb was on a tirade yesterday denouncing en_US, and so I corrected him when he used itMar 01 00:14
zebzebzebMinceR: I was doing z in words where I should of put a sMar 01 00:14
MinceRicMar 01 00:14
zebzebzebbruce89: oh when I use z I am doing en_US ?Mar 01 00:14
bruce89of courseMar 01 00:14
MinceRzebzebzeb: preliminary design for ZDE? :>Mar 01 00:14
zebzebzebMinceR: what?Mar 01 00:14
MinceRthe Z Desktop Environment, where "s" in app names is replaced with "z"? :>Mar 01 00:15
*zebzebzeb is now known as sebsebsebMar 01 00:15
sebsebseb_Goblin: really they should put in some exciting games in the default Ubuntu installMar 01 00:16
sebsebseb_Goblin: however space on the CD issuesMar 01 00:16
sebsebsebanyway loads of people think  gaming on Desktop Linux sucksMar 01 00:16
sebsebsebwhich isn't true reallyMar 01 00:16
sebsebsebit's just they are used to their propritary bought commercial gamesMar 01 00:16
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_Goblinsebsebseb: I think not....I think they should remove the games, if users want to play em they can get them from the software center.Mar 01 00:16
sebsebseb_Goblin: well  your an oldie I guess, so no wonder :DMar 01 00:17
sebsebseb_Goblin: altough even older people want to play basic games, quite a lot of themMar 01 00:17
MinceRperhaps there could be a livecd/livedvd/installer with some great FLOSS gamesMar 01 00:17
_Goblinsebsebseb: re: Linux gaming I have written many articles showing it doesn't suck.Mar 01 00:17
sebsebsebMinceR: there is already a gaming DVD out thereMar 01 00:17
MinceRperhaps even demos of proprietary games for GNU/LinuxMar 01 00:17
bruce89if the only Fedora Games spinMar 01 00:17
bruce89oopsMar 01 00:17
MinceRiirc there was a gaming livecd of gentoo :)Mar 01 00:17
sebsebseb_Goblin: indeed it doesn't suck, but most users think it doesMar 01 00:17
sebsebsebat least Ubuntu onesMar 01 00:17
_Goblinsebsebseb: Im old and I don't want to play the default games of any distro.Mar 01 00:17
vermilionnnnthey should keep a few games, but having a load of random games like lagno and robots is pointlessMar 01 00:18
bruce89_Goblin: I'm young and I can't be bothered eitherMar 01 00:18
_Goblinlol.Mar 01 00:18
MinceRthat's iagnoMar 01 00:18
_Goblinthere you go, agreement over the generation gap.Mar 01 00:18
_GoblinI say im old...Im only 35.Mar 01 00:19
MinceRand it actually isn't bad for a simple board gameMar 01 00:19
DaemonFCare there any TVs with a web browser built-in?Mar 01 00:19
sebsebseb_Goblin: well bruce89 can be quite grumpy for his ageMar 01 00:19
bruce89http://spins.fedoraproject.org/games/ perhapsMar 01 00:19
phIRCe-BNcTitle: About Spin: Games .::. Size~: 33.29 KBMar 01 00:19
*DaemonFC hasn't looked latelyMar 01 00:19
_Goblinsebsebseb: can't we all?Mar 01 00:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] People walking down Bayview Avenue waving Canadian flags, drivers honking their horns. Great night!Mar 01 00:20
sebsebseb_Goblin: sadly some of the best Linux apps are actsauly made with Mono by the wayMar 01 00:20
sebsebsebBanshee for exampleMar 01 00:20
_Goblinsebsebseb: lolMar 01 00:20
_Goblinsebsebseb: really.....?Mar 01 00:20
vermilionnnnBanshee isn't that greatMar 01 00:20
_Goblinsebsebseb: never used bansheeMar 01 00:20
_Goblinsebsebseb: never needed too.Mar 01 00:20
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: it used to suck in Ubuntu 8.04, but then 8.10 had a good versionMar 01 00:20
sebsebsebBanshee's in the Ubuntu repo, it's never been defaultMar 01 00:21
sebsebsebalso right now I am on Mandriva, but I was using Ubuntu when I started using BansheeMar 01 00:21
_Goblinsebsebseb: Ive been asking what was Mono's killer app for ages...not even Novell employee's could answer...simple answer it doesn't have one....Mar 01 00:21
sebsebseb_Goblin: Banshee if anythingMar 01 00:21
bruce89for me, it's f-spot currentlyMar 01 00:21
vermilionnnnsebsebseb: it is good, but I've never found it good enough to install, when rthymbox suits meMar 01 00:21
bruce89I could live without everything but f-spot just nowMar 01 00:21
sebsebseb_Goblin: f-spot is also alrightMar 01 00:22
sebsebsebbruce89: why are you using f-spot ?Mar 01 00:22
bruce89'cause it's nice, but gthumb could replace it with this rewriteMar 01 00:22
sebsebsebbruce89: there's  whatever it's called as an f-spot alternativeMar 01 00:22
_Goblinsebsebseb: we saw alot of "is alright" with Microsoft packages too....look where that ended up.Mar 01 00:22
sebsebseb_Goblin: look where that ended up?  you mean Microsoft stuff all over the place?Mar 01 00:22
*bruce89 goes off to port gnome-shell to seedMar 01 00:22
_Goblinsebsebseb: what I mean is, settling for "its alright"Mar 01 00:23
sebsebsebbruce89: seed?Mar 01 00:23
_GoblinWindows was "alright"...look where that ended up.Mar 01 00:23
sebsebseb_Goblin: you mean using something, because it's ok, instead of finding something that is liked a lot more by that user?Mar 01 00:23
sebsebseb_Goblin: of course people thought Windows was alright in the 90's, since they didn't know about other OS's most usersMar 01 00:24
_Goblinsebsebseb: I mean using something thats "alright" instead of something that is "excellent"Mar 01 00:24
bruce89f-spot isn't quite right for my use, I don't want to have to import stuff, it's like banshee in that respectMar 01 00:24
sebsebseb_Goblin: they may have heard of Apple Mac, but that would be itMar 01 00:24
sebsebseb_Goblin: excellent is opinion, and most computer users, just use what loads of other ones do, so Microsoft for exampleMar 01 00:24
sebsebseb_Goblin: and they don't tend to care enough to find alternatives,  as long as their computer tasks can be done with the current softwareMar 01 00:25
vermilionnnnsebsebseb: which is why we find alternatives and introduce others to itMar 01 00:25
sebsebseb_Goblin: also being realistic there is no excellent GUI for Desktop Linux,  Gnome, KDE,  etc, nopeMar 01 00:25
_Goblinjust think of the Mono framework plonked between your distro and your mono app, then think on what a great man once say (and forget for a minute that you are depending on an "emulation" of a MS framework that is chasing then tail of its Microsoft older brother....Mar 01 00:25
bruce89apart from gnome-shellMar 01 00:26
sebsebseb_Goblin: Gnome is not perfect, it's good enough thoughMar 01 00:26
_Goblin..Mar 01 00:26
sebsebsebKDE  is  not perfect, good enough though for users that like itMar 01 00:26
_Goblinhere we go...Mar 01 00:26
bruce89_Goblin: that's an interesting pointMar 01 00:26
sebsebsebno software is perfect,  I should put excellentMar 01 00:26
sebsebsebneither Gnome or KDE are excellentMar 01 00:26
_Goblin"The more you over tech the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"Mar 01 00:26
vermilionnnnbut Gnome can be modified to be excellent?Mar 01 00:26
sebsebsebhence why I mix appsMar 01 00:26
sebsebsebdo a bit of Gnome and KDE app mixingMar 01 00:26
_GoblinMr Scott.....Star Trek.Mar 01 00:26
sebsebsebrun some KDE apps in Gnome, or if on KDE  run some Gnome apps in KDE maybeMar 01 00:26
bruce89_Goblin: I've thought that also, Mono seems shameless copying of what works for Windows, we need our own thingMar 01 00:27
_Goblinbruce89: agree completely.Mar 01 00:27
vermilionnnndon't we have java?Mar 01 00:27
bruce89personally, I'm very pleased about gobject-introspectionMar 01 00:27
_Goblinbruce89: Linux made it this far without having to chase after MS tech...why do it now?Mar 01 00:27
bruce89exactlyMar 01 00:28
_Goblinbruce89: and if Linux is going to chase MS tech, isn't it a little shamefull that Mono is second best to its Microsoft brother?Mar 01 00:28
bruce89that too, mono is forever playing catchup, same goes for moonlightMar 01 00:28
sebsebsebbruce89: that's trueMar 01 00:29
_GoblinI'd suggest that if anyone can't live without Mono...move back to Windows and get the real thing.Mar 01 00:29
sebsebseband same goes for WineMar 01 00:29
sebsebseband ReactOSMar 01 00:29
sebsebsebwell untill Microsoft stop making WindowsMar 01 00:29
sebsebseb_Goblin: Mono can run on Windows as well by the wayMar 01 00:29
_Goblinsebsebseb: What do you mean about Wine?  It has better XP compat than Windows 7 XP mode.Mar 01 00:29
sebsebseb_Goblin: you can't run most Windows XP apps with Wine  and just like that, with them working properly, at the momentMar 01 00:30
_Goblinsebsebseb: yes I do know that...but why would you want De Icazza's second best emu of .net?Mar 01 00:30
_Goblinsebsebseb: have you compared 7 XP mode and Wine?Mar 01 00:31
_Goblinsebsebseb: Ive spent 3 months doing it.Mar 01 00:31
sebsebseb_Goblin: take Banshee for example,  something similar or well the same when it comes to looks, could of been made, with other technologiesMar 01 00:31
bruce89JAVASCRIPT!Mar 01 00:31
_Goblinsebsebseb: forget for a second that 7's XP mode won't touch DX....Mar 01 00:31
sebsebseb_Goblin: I don't have  Vista version 2, Windows 7Mar 01 00:31
_GoblinIm talking about the XP-Mode you have to pay for in 7.Mar 01 00:32
sebsebsebI haven't used thatMar 01 00:32
bruce89http://www.netsplit.com/2009/03/26/the-fallacy-of-high-level-languages/Mar 01 00:32
_Goblinthe one that can't play with DXMar 01 00:32
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Scott James Remnant  » Blog Archive   » The fallacy of high-level languages .::. Size~: 49.91 KBMar 01 00:32
_Goblininfact it can't play with much.Mar 01 00:32
sebsebseb_Goblin: XP is fineMar 01 00:32
sebsebsebfor most Windows usersMar 01 00:32
sebsebsebversions of Windows after that, it's like screw thatMar 01 00:32
_GoblinMS can't even sort out its own backwards compat properly....it takes Dosbox to do it for them.Mar 01 00:32
sebsebsebnot much point really, except for Microsoft to make even more moneyMar 01 00:32
sebsebseb_Goblin: yep and XP compatiabily mode in W7Mar 01 00:33
sebsebsebthe virtual XP thingMar 01 00:33
sebsebsebwith VirtualPCMar 01 00:33
sebsebsebto start to progress properly though, they have to brake compatabiilty eventaully for older appsMar 01 00:34
_Goblinso then how did Dosbox get it working again?  Could MS have not made its own Dosbox?Mar 01 00:34
bruce89bloody difficult for them mind you, that tangled web of APIs and whateverMar 01 00:34
_GoblinMS doesn't want people to enjoy older software else how can it flog you the new stuff.Mar 01 00:35
_Goblinthe only other answer would be that MS engineers are not up to the task of making the stuff backward compat.Mar 01 00:36
_Goblinsince DOsbox et al are proof you can.Mar 01 00:36
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_GoblinMoving on...Im very excited about Lernid...I think its a great concept.Mar 01 00:38
oiaohmNot exactly _GoblinMar 01 00:38
bruce89gobject-introspection basically obseletes .net/mono's language support thingMar 01 00:38
_Goblinoiaohm: what Dosbox or Lernid?Mar 01 00:38
_Goblinoiaohm: or both?Mar 01 00:38
oiaohmDOSbox fills a hole a protect memory OS prevents ring 0 usage.  So dosbox was required.Mar 01 00:39
oiaohmBut DOSbox is not what you call great performing.Mar 01 00:40
_Goblinoiaohn: The point I was making was that Dosbox offers what MS has never offered with its later releases of Windows...old MS-DOS app support.Mar 01 00:40
oiaohmWindows offered like dosemuMar 01 00:41
_Goblindid you use it?Mar 01 00:41
oiaohmntvdmMar 01 00:41
_GoblinBecause my memory of it was not a dosbox experience.Mar 01 00:41
oiaohmBasically two different methods.Mar 01 00:41
oiaohmOpen source just happend to have both methods.Mar 01 00:42
DaemonFCI do like libtheora 1.1, maybe now it won't be the butt of every joke from h.264 pushersMar 01 00:42
_Goblinoiaohm: Im sure, but as far as the end-user is concerned in the main, if the old package runs, it could be doing so by the power of prayer for all they care.Mar 01 00:42
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Dear #Apple please stop embarassing yourself publically, your shareholders don't like this http://ur1.ca/nx88 #douchebagsMar 01 00:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Apple Threatened Me With Legal Action For Selling a Broken Step From Their New York Store On eBay - Apple step ebay - Gizmodo .::. Size~: 71.18 KBMar 01 00:42
oiaohmdosemu and ntvdm uses vm86 for the emulation.Mar 01 00:42
oiaohmThat kinda is really tricky to get to when running a 64 bit OS.Mar 01 00:42
*bruce89 likes DiracMar 01 00:43
oiaohmAll design selections have prices  _GoblinMar 01 00:43
_Goblinoiaohm: but lets then just look at it from a 32bit POV which is what I was doing...Vista/7/XP never managed to do what Dosbox does....or at least with the results Dosbox has.Mar 01 00:44
_Goblinoiaohm: regardless of how it is doing it.Mar 01 00:44
oiaohmNow there are upper api issues _Goblin that are better to point to. http://test.winehq.org/data/583f0f08ed8c1e4f8dce679db5256fdc4c142ada/Mar 01 00:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Summary for build 583f0f08ed8c .::. Size~: 1140.1 KBMar 01 00:45
_GoblinJono: If you are reading this and remember our conversation, I just had one of those moments I talked about..... ;)Mar 01 00:45
oiaohmDoxbox is very much like vpc _GoblinMar 01 00:45
oiaohmMS really sees no reason competing with there virtual machine product _GoblinMar 01 00:45
_Goblinand I think that was a mistake by them.Mar 01 00:46
oiaohmDoxbox containes cpu emulator.  VPC contains cpu emulator.Mar 01 00:46
_GoblinI think if backward compat had been at the forefront of MS development from day one then you foster a far more faithful userbase....Mar 01 00:47
oiaohmSplitting resources to build a cpu emulator in a company that has to pay for develoepers really costly.Mar 01 00:47
oiaohmAlso its about profit _GoblinMar 01 00:47
oiaohmMS wanted to sell virtual PC.Mar 01 00:47
_Goblinbut then isn't MS always thinking about the "bigger picture"Mar 01 00:47
oiaohmIt is but its the bigger picture to get dollars.   _GoblinMar 01 00:48
_Goblinit seems to me common sense that if you have users with libraries of software all for you platform, you make for a more loyal user.Mar 01 00:48
oiaohmNot how to take care of users.Mar 01 00:48
_Goblinlook at the Playstation.....Mar 01 00:48
_GoblinPS1 -> PS2 - very popular...Mar 01 00:48
_GoblinPS3 not so...Mar 01 00:49
oiaohmIf MS really cared about Users MS would not release a OS with such a crap secuirty system.Mar 01 00:49
_Goblinah, but then thats a revenue stream in itself...Mar 01 00:49
oiaohmYes exactly.Mar 01 00:49
_Goblinendorsements with companies that do the job of securing windows on behalf of MS.Mar 01 00:49
oiaohmNot shipping something like dosbox made revenue streams for virtual pc and vmware and others.  _GoblinMar 01 00:49
_Goblinand what better way to get your Windows platform promoted than by having companies that are dependant on it to make a living....Mar 01 00:50
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oiaohmNow you are getting the MS big picture.  _GoblinMar 01 00:50
_GoblinI bet many of our MS faithful are 3rd party devs petrified that Windows will loose support....Mar 01 00:50
_Goblinoiaohm: I always did...Mar 01 00:51
oiaohmDosbox equal is not in windows because it conflits with vpc.Mar 01 00:51
oiaohmThe broken windows api's have no really good explan over than cost cutting and carelessness.Mar 01 00:51
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oiaohmThe big bad presume was that ms had not built there equal to dosbox.  _Goblin  Ie they did.Mar 01 00:53
_GoblinBut Ive yet to see anything as solid or indeed as compat as Dosbox....Mar 01 00:54
_Goblinhaving said that....Mar 01 00:54
oiaohmvpcMar 01 00:54
_GoblinScummVM does its job very well, but then thats not an emu and has limited selection of compat titles.Mar 01 00:54
oiaohmvpc running dos itself.  _GoblinMar 01 00:55
_Goblinlike I say...dosbox for me is better.  I got Frontier working which I never previously had before.Mar 01 00:55
oiaohmYep cheeper.Mar 01 00:55
oiaohmAlso more developer hours have gone into dosbox compared to vpcMar 01 00:56
oiaohmIts a case of MS having limited resources.Mar 01 00:56
_Goblinvpc....wheres the DX compat?Mar 01 00:56
_Goblinthats the crux of my point about MS failing where others suceed.Mar 01 00:57
oiaohmLook closer.Mar 01 00:57
oiaohmvmware and virtualbox suceed with direct x support by using code from wine an open source project.Mar 01 00:58
_Goblinlet me give you an example of Vpc..running tmpenc and encoding a 500mb file to xvid.....Mar 01 00:58
_Goblinand is that not MS failing?Mar 01 00:58
oiaohmMS anti open source stance has hurt them in the virtual game.Mar 01 00:58
_Goblinexactly...Mar 01 00:59
_Goblinanyway back to example...Mar 01 00:59
oiaohmNot enough resourcesMar 01 00:59
oiaohmTo complete their equals.Mar 01 00:59
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_GoblinWine running exactly same package in a Linux environment....far better experience...Mar 01 00:59
_Goblinso where MS and Vpc fail...others (and in this case FOSS) pick up the ball.Mar 01 01:00
oiaohmWine vs a cpu emulator.  Wine normally wins.Mar 01 01:00
oiaohmNT does have a design that allows subsystems.Mar 01 01:00
oiaohmBut MS with poor coding screwed that up.Mar 01 01:01
oiaohmNote Wine vs qemu/vmware/virtualbox....  all the cpu emulators it normally wins.Mar 01 01:01
_Goblinbut should it?  the point Im making is wheather Wine is an Emu or not (and I know its not) whether Vpc is an emu or not, shouldn't MS be doing it better than others....? Like I say the end-user cares not how its done, just that its done.Mar 01 01:01
oiaohmWine is more like a NT subsystem.Mar 01 01:02
oiaohmTo be correct windows has equal just not well developed called shimsMar 01 01:02
_GoblinIf Wine is better because !=emu, then shouldn't MS have included its own "Wine" instead of its Vpc emulator?Mar 01 01:02
oiaohmNote windows does not really need wine if the shims system works.Mar 01 01:02
_GoblinI think the keywords there are "if" and "works"Mar 01 01:03
oiaohmhttp://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd837644%28WS.10%29.aspxMar 01 01:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Understanding Shims .::. Size~: 47.7 KBMar 01 01:03
oiaohmProblem with shims most people don't know how to configure it.  _GoblinMar 01 01:04
oiaohmI have had people trying to install particular programs on there home machines and not having them work due to network having custom shimsMar 01 01:06
oiaohmReally your arguement is flawed that MS does not have equal  _Goblin.   The true argument is why is it so much of a prick to use.Mar 01 01:08
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_Goblinoiaohm: sorry afk there for a while...had to sort out a duty.Mar 01 01:10
_Goblinoiaohm: and I think then the fact that its a "prick" to use makes MS just as guilty as if they had produced code which wouldn't work at all.Mar 01 01:11
_Goblinoiaohm: going back to the security of Windows (in relation to this) I don't buy into the theory that flaws are intentional on MS's behalf...I think its merely gross incompetance...incompetance which we see from them at so many levels.Mar 01 01:12
_Goblini would cite Bing as an example of this...Mar 01 01:12
oiaohmI view it as pure incompetance and by making programs fail they got to sell more.Mar 01 01:13
_Goblinwhen they were building up the hype and designing the plethora of PR around it, did not even one MS employee say "Hang on folks, before we start pimping this should we not run the word "Bing" through Dictionary.com".....Mar 01 01:13
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oiaohmThere is a difference _Goblin the code exists.   You cannot say that wine is user friendly all the time either.Mar 01 01:14
_Goblinoiaohm: agreed, although on a % basis I'd say its years ahead of MS offering.Mar 01 01:14
_Goblinoiaohm: again, end-user wins out here....devs can be as intelligent as they like, release red hot optimised code that does things properly....but if the end-user doesn't percieve it as functional, its all for nothing.Mar 01 01:16
oiaohmReally I think shims are hard to find because MS is shamed by the coding errors in there own applications it masks.  _GoblinMar 01 01:16
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schestowitzIt hires cheap engineersMar 01 01:17
_GoblinLook at what Natal really is....is it a innovative product by MS or is it simply an emu of Nintendo tech designed to get a little more life out of the 360 and hopefully finally get a return after all those faulty red ring of death machines.Mar 01 01:17
schestowitzI'm too tied toDAY. gnMar 01 01:17
_GoblingnMar 01 01:17
schestowitzsony has one tooMar 01 01:18
schestowitzNone invented itMar 01 01:18
schestowitzIt's an old ideaMar 01 01:18
_Goblinyes, but if we are talking a sucessful marketting of it, then Nintendo gets the prize....Mar 01 01:18
_GoblinI remember the lightpen on the ZX spectrum....I wonder who else does?Mar 01 01:18
_GoblinNintendo can take ownership of making money from the idea...unless anyone knows of a tech that has been as sucessful based on the same idea.....Innovation counts for nothing if you are not the one getting world wide recognition for it....History has taught us that...Mar 01 01:21
_GoblinI could have an idea for the greatest console on the planet sitting in my head...unfortunately as it stands Nintendo holds the prize for the most popular (and loved) console.Mar 01 01:22
_GoblinOk, thats me done for the night....Mar 01 01:23
_Goblinearly start...Mar 01 01:23
oiaohmlightpen predates ZXMar 01 01:23
oiaohmThat is a xerox parc thing.Mar 01 01:23
_Goblinim sure it does...Mar 01 01:23
_Goblinits my earliest recollection of it.Mar 01 01:23
oiaohmYep mouse and light pen comes from the same place.Mar 01 01:23
_Goblinbut then the question now has to be asked "Is there really any original idea's left?"Mar 01 01:24
oiaohmYes there is.Mar 01 01:24
oiaohmItems like sixed sence was an orgininal idea last yeat.Mar 01 01:25
oiaohmyear.Mar 01 01:25
oiaohmBut there are few and far between.Mar 01 01:25
_Goblinand its a question which probably has about 3 hours of conversation attached to it....Mar 01 01:25
_Goblinbefore I go, what I will say is....Mar 01 01:25
_Goblinif there is any original idea's left....Mar 01 01:25
oiaohmhttp://www.blendernation.com/sixth-sense-technology/Mar 01 01:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Sixth Sense Technology | BlenderNation .::. Size~: 57.29 KBMar 01 01:25
oiaohmNo one before him attempted anything like it.Mar 01 01:26
_Goblinthe MS faithful will have you believe MS has all of them....and failing that, why let an innovation get in the way of another patent....or something like that...Mar 01 01:26
oiaohmYou are lucky to see an orgininal idea these days about 1 every 3 years.Mar 01 01:26
_Goblinright must go....Mar 01 01:26
_Goblingreat talking...Mar 01 01:27
vermilionnnnnightMar 01 01:27
_GoblinSmoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.Mar 01 01:27
oiaohmgood night _GoblinMar 01 01:27
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] LibDems don't exist. If they did, we see them CARPE THE FUCKING DIEM. This never happens, so there's no such thing. QED.Mar 01 01:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] LibDems don't exist. If they did, we'd see them CARPE THE FUCKING DIEM. This never happens, so there's no such thing. QED.Mar 01 01:28
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DaemonFCjono_, Is there any chance of getting Ubuntu to patch libvorbis with AoTuv patches by default?Mar 01 01:31
DaemonFCif I ask nicely?Mar 01 01:31
jono_DaemonFC, why don't you patch it and submit it?Mar 01 01:31
DaemonFChaving to override what comes with the system is clearly suboptimal Mar 01 01:31
jono_I sure it would be considered :)Mar 01 01:31
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DaemonFCjono_, It's been in a PPA for a while nowMar 01 01:31
jono_rightMar 01 01:32
jono_tbh, I have no idea about if it would be accepted, I don't know much about the work involvedMar 01 01:32
DaemonFCit says beta, but his work is good and well testedMar 01 01:32
DaemonFCjono_, applying a patch file he publishes on it site during the build processMar 01 01:32
DaemonFC*hisMar 01 01:33
jono_DaemonFC, ask on ubuntu-devel - best place to have the discussionMar 01 01:34
DaemonFCor lately he's just been offering the source in completenessMar 01 01:34
DaemonFCI think it's also come up on Brainstorm several timesMar 01 01:34
bruce89that's interesting, I was thinking the same thing yesterdayMar 01 01:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@kirillcool @Twitter clients should come up with a common notification mechanism // #growl?Mar 01 01:39
sebsebsebhttp://www.montanalinux.org/ubuntu-fanboy-confessions-response.htmlMar 01 01:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] the hockey outcome hasn't hit the Supreme Court yet. short memories, people...Mar 01 01:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Opinion: "Confessions of an Ubuntu Fanboy" Response | MontanaLinux.org .::. Size~: 46.64 KBMar 01 01:40
sebsebsebGave this link earlier here http://www.starryhope.com/linux/2010/confessions-of-an-ubuntu-fanboy/Mar 01 01:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Confessions of an Ubuntu Fanboy - Starry Hope .::. Size~: 84.05 KBMar 01 01:41
sebsebsebDaemonFC: read them :) tell me what you thinkMar 01 01:42
sebsebsebjono_:  read them as well :) tell me what you thinkMar 01 01:42
DaemonFCwaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!! It doesn't support the iFAIL, OH NOEZ!!!!11111Mar 01 01:42
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 01:42
sebsebsebDaemonFC: actsaullyMar 01 01:43
sebsebsebsomething about how  Lucid alpha 3 supports Iphone and Ipod touch nowMar 01 01:43
sebsebsebDaemonFC: http://www.webupd8.org/2010/02/confirmed-ubuntu-1004-supports-iphone.htmlMar 01 01:44
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Confirmed: Ubuntu 10.04 Supports iPhone / iPod Touch Out Of The Box ~ Web Upd8 .::. Size~: 98.71 KBMar 01 01:44
sebsebsebwell for now I guess, but then Apple will brake the support probably?Mar 01 01:44
MinceRdepends on what's canonical's new COO willing to do to steve jobs to prevent itMar 01 01:44
DaemonFCthe newer ipods intentionally break support for third party programs no matter what you use and encrypt the interfaceMar 01 01:44
DaemonFCShipping Banshee won't fix that, no will it?Mar 01 01:45
sebsebsebDaemonFC: uhmm read the linkMar 01 01:45
sebsebseblook at screen shots as wellMar 01 01:45
DaemonFCthe Mono pushers will be using it as an excuse to push BansheeMar 01 01:45
bruce89http://bruce-cowan.blogspot.com/2010/03/gnome-30.htmlMar 01 01:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 01:46
sebsebsebDaemonFC: Banshee is not needed for the  iphone and ipod support, visit linkMar 01 01:48
bruce89where has the actual work been done?Mar 01 01:49
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sebsebsebbruce89: what?Mar 01 02:00
sebsebsebbruce89: rather short, but just read your blog entry by the wayMar 01 02:02
DaemonFChttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvorbis/+bug/529807Mar 01 02:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Bug #529807 in libvorbis (Ubuntu): “Make aoTuv the libvorbis shipped in Ubuntu” .::. Size~: 30.98 KBMar 01 02:03
bruce89probably made little sense, but it's lateMar 01 02:03
sebsebsebbruce89: I am having a look at your blog :DMar 01 02:04
DaemonFCnominated for Lucid :PMar 01 02:04
bruce89this is why DRCSes are goodMar 01 02:05
sebsebsebDaemonFC: some bug on luanchpad  something vorbis,  not gone on linkMar 01 02:08
sebsebsebbruce89: something about  DRCSes whatever that isMar 01 02:08
bruce89I know, I said thatMar 01 02:09
bruce89it'd mean merging the aoTuv branch easier I'd hopeMar 01 02:09
DaemonFCI don't see why no distro already carries itMar 01 02:11
DaemonFCeasy PR win "We have the very best Vorbis support"Mar 01 02:11
DaemonFCdoesn't risk blowing anything upMar 01 02:12
DaemonFCvery few dependenciesMar 01 02:12
DaemonFCit's under the same license as the Vorbis they already useMar 01 02:13
bruce89http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=419890Mar 01 02:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: #419890 - include aoTuV patch - Debian Bug report logs .::. Size~: 32.19 KBMar 01 02:13
DaemonFCpaired with Theora 1.1 you have powerful modern multimedia codecs that anyone can useMar 01 02:13
DaemonFCbruce89, It's also easier to convince Ubuntu to do things than DebianMar 01 02:14
bruce89it's a shame that xiph seem to be rather slow/busy with other thingsMar 01 02:16
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DaemonFChmmm, Gnote crashes when you make a new notMar 01 02:32
DaemonFC*noteMar 01 02:32
DaemonFChttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnote/+bug/522372Mar 01 02:32
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Bug #522372 in gnote (Ubuntu): “gnote crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_text_iter_get_offset()” .::. Size~: 63.79 KBMar 01 02:32
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Turns out that AoTuv did come up back in 2006Mar 01 02:33
DaemonFCthey talked to Xiph.org who said they were getting ready to merge it "soon"Mar 01 02:33
DaemonFCand it's now 2010Mar 01 02:33
DaemonFCSoon for anything FSF-involved seems to be "before you die of old age, maybe"Mar 01 02:34
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sebsebsebDaemonFC: I think I am going to have Yahoo as the search engine on other computer, that my brothers are using.  Since I don't really care  much about search engines,  they give people nearly the same results these days.  Also by keeping Yahoo Canonical will  make some money out of their searches?   Also since outisde USA when doing the search I guess it won't say Bing.Mar 01 02:45
DaemonFCyour choice but I don't think Yahoo gives good resultsMar 01 02:46
DaemonFCthey've even managed to return pages to me in ChineseMar 01 02:46
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 02:46
sebsebsebwell i'll try the search enginge like that myselfMar 01 02:47
sebsebsebas for Google wellMar 01 02:47
sebsebsebvender lock inMar 01 02:47
sebsebsebmost web users are locked into it as a search engingeMar 01 02:47
sebsebsebplus they hype up chrome now a bit here and there, when really Firefox should be suppourted properly by them insteadMar 01 02:47
sebsebsebI just read that chromeium is in the Lucid repo now, alpha 3Mar 01 02:48
Ender2070bsMar 01 02:48
Ender2070nobody is required to use googleMar 01 02:48
sebsebsebtrueMar 01 02:48
sebsebseb,butMar 01 02:48
sebsebsebmost web users, use it, because most other web users use itMar 01 02:48
Ender2070not soMar 01 02:48
sebsebsebjust like most computer users use Windows, because most other computer users use WIndowsMar 01 02:48
Ender2070i use it because i like itMar 01 02:48
Ender2070people still using windows have some sort of defectMar 01 02:49
sebsebsebno they have some silly reasonMar 01 02:49
sebsebsebto use itMar 01 02:49
sebsebsebsometimes they have to use it, because of some stupid appMar 01 02:49
Ender2070yesMar 01 02:49
Ender2070thats the defectMar 01 02:49
sebsebsebanyway defect you meant a  problem?Mar 01 02:50
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sebsebsebdefect meaning problem?Mar 01 02:50
Ender2070yeah i'd still do it in a vm if I had to at allMar 01 02:50
sebsebsebsame hereMar 01 02:50
sebsebseb,but sometimes vm's won't cut itMar 01 02:50
Ender2070i have good hardwareMar 01 02:50
sebsebsebsometimes vm's  won't do something that a pshyical install of Windows willMar 01 02:50
Ender2070gamesMar 01 02:50
Ender2070i dont care for pc gamesMar 01 02:51
sebsebsebsame hereMar 01 02:51
Ender2070i have a wii and a dsMar 01 02:51
sebsebsebyeah games consolesMar 01 02:51
sebsebsebscrew WIndows gamesMar 01 02:51
sebsebsebalso PC you meant Windows reallyMar 01 02:51
Ender2070well yeahMar 01 02:51
Ender2070theres some ok linux gamesMar 01 02:52
sebsebsebthere are some pretty good native open source gamesMar 01 02:52
sebsebsebnot many commercial games yet that are good thoughMar 01 02:52
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sebsebsebEnder2070: Chrome annoys meMar 01 02:53
sebsebsebsort ofMar 01 02:53
sebsebsebwhen I last tried it, it was like uhMar 01 02:53
sebsebsebnice looking theme, but how tabs are done and such, oddMar 01 02:53
Ender2070i like chromiumMar 01 02:54
Ender2070its fastMar 01 02:54
sebsebsebso's OperaMar 01 03:00
sebsebseband the latest Firefox is meant to be faster than 3.5Mar 01 03:00
DaemonFChttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvorbis/+bug/57797Mar 01 03:05
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Bug #57797 in libvorbis (Ubuntu): “Should include aoTuV Release 1 patch” .::. Size~: 63.31 KBMar 01 03:05
DaemonFCmy report was deemed a duplicate of this oneMar 01 03:05
DaemonFCI replied again at the end that it's been 4 years now since Ubuntu said "Wait for upstream" and upstream still hasn't done anything.Mar 01 03:05
DaemonFC:PMar 01 03:05
Ender2070opera is proprietaryMar 01 03:05
Ender2070firefox doesnt pass acid3Mar 01 03:05
DaemonFC"Perhaps someone can convince upstream to go ahead with the merge? I don't like the idea of forks anymore than anybody and forks are often a sign that it's easier to not work with upstream than it is to wait on them to drag themselves forward which I feel is what has happened here."Mar 01 03:07
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 03:07
sebsebsebEnder2070: acid 3 is just a test thingMar 01 03:11
sebsebsebEnder2070: no browsers have to pass thatMar 01 03:12
sebsebsebalso Gecko is still goodMar 01 03:12
sebsebsebwebkit might be better here and there, but Gecko is still goodMar 01 03:12
Ender2070khtml is good tooMar 01 03:29
DaemonFCI turned the bug report into a brainstorm idea tooMar 01 03:32
DaemonFComgMar 01 03:41
DaemonFCHow can such stupidity happen?Mar 01 03:42
DaemonFChttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/28/AR2010022803985.html?hpid=topnewsMar 01 03:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Gun case presents quandary for Supreme Court justices - washingtonpost.com .::. Size~: 93.58 KBMar 01 03:42
DaemonFCThe second amendment applies to states and localities through the Incorporation ClauseMar 01 03:43
DaemonFCwhat's so hard to understand about that?Mar 01 03:43
DaemonFCthe liberals try to argue that there is no individual right to own a gun because the second amendment refers to the "militia"Mar 01 03:45
DaemonFCbut it also establishes elsewhere that the "militia" is any male 16 years of age or overMar 01 03:46
DaemonFCwhoopsMar 01 03:46
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 03:46
DaemonFCAccording to the letter of the word of the constitution, I am a member of the "militia" and my right to bear arms "shall not be infringed"Mar 01 03:47
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DaemonFCso if the liberals want to argue on constitutional grounds, they'll need a judicial majority willing to rewrite the constitution to not mean what it saysMar 01 03:48
DaemonFCthis country might be a better place if they actually taught what was in the constitution in schoolsMar 01 03:51
DaemonFCand how it applied to individualsMar 01 03:51
DaemonFCthere'd be less Michael Moores running aroundMar 01 03:51
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Jose_Xschestowitz, http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=5967Mar 01 04:31
phIRCe-BNcTitle: There are political advantages in vendor lock-in | Open Source | ZDNet.com .::. Size~: 107.05 KBMar 01 04:31
Jose_X>> The response was to try and tie the BBC’s existing strengths in broadcasting tightly to its Web site. Politically the idea was to make them one and the same. The BBC needed a friend here, and it found one in Microsoft.Mar 01 04:32
Jose_X>> One result is that the BBC is now locking out open source, verifying “rights” to view content by verifying the player. They have gone so far down the proprietary road that the interests of specific American companies — Microsoft and Adobe — are now the interests of the BBC.Mar 01 04:32
Jose_X>> But open source could not have enforced rules on users as the proprietary companies could. Open source could not have the politicians’ backs as Microsoft might.Mar 01 04:33
Jose_X..and from the top of the article:Mar 01 04:33
Jose_X>> Every government knows its time in office is limited. What it needs are stalwart friends and a legacy. Proprietary vendors deliver both, and it is in the nature of open source that these not be provided.Mar 01 04:33
Jose_Xalright, later..Mar 01 04:33
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DaemonFCExaile is my new preferred music playerMar 01 05:34
DaemonFCit's gotten lots better since I tried it last (probably 2007-ish)Mar 01 05:34
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Marriage is not loving without fighting , it is fighting and still loving #quote via @shivaranjanMar 01 05:57
Diablo-D3schestowitz: http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/programming-aphorisms-of-strunk-and-whiteMar 01 05:58
Diablo-D3schestowitz: http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/programming-aphorisms-of-strunk-and-whiteMar 01 05:58
Diablo-D3schestowitz: http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/programming-aphorisms-of-strunk-and-whiteMar 01 05:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Programming Aphorisms of Strunk and White - Coding the Wheel .::. Size~: 74.81 KBMar 01 05:58
Diablo-D3schestowitz: http://www.codingthewheel.com/archives/programming-aphorisms-of-strunk-and-whiteMar 01 05:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Programming Aphorisms of Strunk and White - Coding the Wheel .::. Size~: 74.81 KBMar 01 05:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Programming Aphorisms of Strunk and White - Coding the Wheel .::. Size~: 74.81 KBMar 01 05:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Programming Aphorisms of Strunk and White - Coding the Wheel .::. Size~: 74.81 KBMar 01 05:58
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Can you imagine how sordid life would be without simple things like base64 encoding. #openssl #gpg #geekMar 01 06:29
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DaemonFCjono, yayMar 01 07:06
DaemonFCjono, I filed my bug report and I trust it's on the way up to the Vogons nowMar 01 07:07
jonoupto the what?Mar 01 07:07
DaemonFCthe VogonsMar 01 07:08
DaemonFCof courseMar 01 07:08
DaemonFCjono, Don't tell me you haven't seen The Hitchhiker's Guide to the GalaxyMar 01 07:09
jonoermMar 01 07:09
jononopeMar 01 07:09
jono:)Mar 01 07:09
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogon#DescriptionMar 01 07:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Vogon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 47.61 KBMar 01 07:09
DaemonFCI think they're the ones in charge of fixing bugs in UbuntuMar 01 07:10
DaemonFCthat's the theory anywayMar 01 07:10
DaemonFCjono, They actually marked my bug a duplicate of one that was filed back in 2006 that they said they'd "work with upstream to fix" and was never resolvedMar 01 07:14
jonoDaemonFC, well maybe you can follow up and see it though :)Mar 01 07:14
jonothroughMar 01 07:14
DaemonFCthe whole problem dates back to the fact that Ubuntu is shipping a 6 year old version of libvorbis with a few minor bug fixesMar 01 07:14
DaemonFCXiph.org has been neglectful of Vorbis and has not been doing any serious development on it even though plenty of work gets done in forked versions of their encoderMar 01 07:15
jonoDaemonFC, Ubuntu is an Open Source project: just get involved and fix itMar 01 07:15
DaemonFCthey're neglectful maintainers and deserve to be replaced by the forks that are getting love is my opinionMar 01 07:16
jonothere is an incredible opportunity for you to help fix this and make it betterMar 01 07:16
DaemonFCjono, Vorbis is like a dying houseplant that just needs to be put over by the window and given some waterMar 01 07:16
DaemonFCwhy is it so difficult to request fixes that are out there already?Mar 01 07:17
jonoDaemonFC, what exactly do you want me to do about this?Mar 01 07:17
DaemonFCit's like saying you can't pay your rent because the cash is on the coffee table and you can't be bothered to pick it up and put it in your walletMar 01 07:17
jonoDaemonFC, why do you expect someone else will do the work?Mar 01 07:18
DaemonFCjono, I don't know. Because only other people can.Mar 01 07:18
DaemonFCI can say "Hey look, this rocks, please use this!"Mar 01 07:18
DaemonFCI've done thatMar 01 07:18
jonoDaemonFC, we are a community, we have to pull togetherMar 01 07:18
jonoto make things betterMar 01 07:18
jonohave you considered that *you* could make this better?Mar 01 07:19
jonoremember how I was talking about being more productive in your efforts, this could be a great way :)Mar 01 07:19
DaemonFCmaintaining it in a PPA is not good because it relies on outside maintainers that are on the honor system to update the PPAMar 01 07:19
DaemonFCand because most people will only be exposed to what's in Ubuntu per default.Mar 01 07:19
jonoright, so why don't you work on a package for the main archive?Mar 01 07:19
jonoUbuntu is all about scratching an itch, you need yours scratching, scratch it and share it with everyone :)Mar 01 07:20
DaemonFCwell because one I'm not really that sure how to build debsMar 01 07:20
DaemonFCI usually just use make installMar 01 07:20
jonoDaemonFC, want to learn?Mar 01 07:20
jonowe have some great resourcesMar 01 07:20
DaemonFCsecond, where would I put the package to ask for its inclusionMar 01 07:20
jonoDaemonFC, we have this process called the sponsorship queueMar 01 07:21
jonoso you basically fix a bug or a package and then you subscribe your bug report (with the fix) to the sponsorship queueMar 01 07:21
DaemonFCthird, they keep saying wait for upstream and they've been saying that for four years nowMar 01 07:21
jonoand an ubuntu dev will review it and provide feedbackMar 01 07:21
jonoDaemonFC, have upstream fixed it?Mar 01 07:21
DaemonFCI'm sure someone would have to change their mind and see that the situation is not being resolved upstreamMar 01 07:21
jonoright so it isntMar 01 07:21
jonoso the fix you need needs to happen upstream, right?Mar 01 07:22
jonoso why not fix this upstream?Mar 01 07:22
DaemonFCthey're saying it doesMar 01 07:22
jonook, so it is fixed upstreamMar 01 07:22
DaemonFCUpstream is not responsive.Mar 01 07:22
DaemonFCThe forked branch fixes the issues.Mar 01 07:22
jonoso does the fix exist upstream but is not in Ubuntu?Mar 01 07:22
DaemonFCthe fixes exist, upstream isn't taking them like they said they would over and over, patience is wearing thinMar 01 07:23
jonoDaemonFC, and why won't upstream merge the fix into their trunk?Mar 01 07:23
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 07:23
DaemonFCyour guess is as good as mineMar 01 07:23
jonoso, so the problem doesnt exist in ubuntu, it exists upstreamMar 01 07:23
DaemonFCthey merged AoTuv once beforeMar 01 07:23
jononot much I can help with there other than encouraging you to persuade upstreamMar 01 07:23
DaemonFCthat's the last time their Vorbis encoder improvedMar 01 07:23
jonosorry, palMar 01 07:23
DaemonFCother people have tried and failedMar 01 07:23
DaemonFCincluding those much more influential than you or IMar 01 07:24
DaemonFCupstream Vorbis is deadMar 01 07:24
jonowell, not much I can do I am afraidMar 01 07:24
jonoif upstream are not shipping what you need, we are unlikely toMar 01 07:24
DaemonFCthere's no sense in relying on a dead upstream that only bugfixesMar 01 07:25
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jonoDaemonFC, what is your solution?Mar 01 07:25
DaemonFCit would be nice to see someone who cared about the state of Vorbis take it over officially if Xiph.org wouldn'tMar 01 07:25
DaemonFCbut I don't think Aoyumi (the guy with the best fork) has lots of money and lawyers and that kind of timeMar 01 07:26
DaemonFCit's bizarre that they are working so heavily to fix Theora and not VorbisMar 01 07:26
DaemonFCapparently "passable" is good enough?Mar 01 07:26
jonoDaemonFC, ok, I appreciate the problem, but what do you propose as a workable solution?Mar 01 07:27
jonowe ain't getting anywhere by just exposing the problemMar 01 07:27
jonobut we can think of a solution :)Mar 01 07:27
DaemonFCjono, The MP3 encoder that Ubuntu has is being developed more rapidly than the Vorbis encoderMar 01 07:27
DaemonFCdon't you think that undermines the "free software is better" message?Mar 01 07:28
jononow you are talking about a different thingMar 01 07:28
jonolets focus on your vorbis problemMar 01 07:28
jonowhat do think could make things better?Mar 01 07:28
DaemonFCjono, Treat Aotuv as the official verion until libvorbis 1.3.0 is actually out and not just vaporwareMar 01 07:28
DaemonFCsupposedly 1.3.0 is going to merge AoTuv, but it's been "going to" since 2004 nowMar 01 07:29
jonoright, so you propose we ship the fork in Ubuntu as the main version?Mar 01 07:29
jonoare their packages in Ubuntu of AoTuv?Mar 01 07:29
DaemonFCjono, Yes, and if needs be, rip it out, it's not major surgeryMar 01 07:29
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DaemonFCjono, https://launchpad.net/~towolf/+archive/codecsMar 01 07:30
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Launchpad .::. Size~: 16.38 KBMar 01 07:30
jonook, I recommend you email ubuntu-devel and propose thisMar 01 07:30
jonosee what the community saysMar 01 07:30
jonoput your case forwardMar 01 07:30
jonoanyway, sorry, I have to run off to see my wife for a bitMar 01 07:30
DaemonFCit's an easy case to makeMar 01 07:30
jonoand then heading to bed soonMar 01 07:30
DaemonFCkMar 01 07:30
DaemonFCnightMar 01 07:30
jononight, palMar 01 07:30
Omar87Hey guys!Mar 01 07:33
Omar87Lubuntu is awesome!Mar 01 07:33
Omar87Has Chromium as it's default browser.Mar 01 07:33
DaemonFCjono, You still here? I'm in #ubuntu-develMar 01 07:36
DaemonFCis that appropriate?Mar 01 07:36
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Audiocasts Become Better Supported in #Amarok 2.3 http://amarok.kde.org/blog/archives/1165-Podcasts-in-Amarok-2.3.htmlMar 01 07:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Podcasts in Amarok 2.3  - Amarok Blog .::. Size~: 37.74 KBMar 01 07:58
jonoDaemonFC, great work :)Mar 01 07:59
DaemonFCjono, They said definitely not in LucidMar 01 07:59
DaemonFCperhaps 10.10Mar 01 07:59
DaemonFCthat's a shame too because Lucid is an LTSMar 01 07:59
DaemonFCand Vorbis in Lucid will have been stale for 9 years when it's out of supportMar 01 08:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Old Desktop Run #GNU #Linux Very Well, Even on 8 MB of RAM http://ur1.ca/nyfh http://ur1.ca/nyfiMar 01 08:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Blog of Helios: Cool Heads (sometimes) Prevail...` .::. Size~: 101.19 KBMar 01 08:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Adventure with Old Hardware at  Robert Pogson .::. Size~: 31.1 KBMar 01 08:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Texas Advanced Computing Center Runs #GNU #Linux http://www.drdobbs.com/linux-open-source/223100859?cid=RSSfeed_DDJ_OpenSourceMar 01 08:01
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Dr. Dobb's | TACC's Ranger Supercomputer Turns Two | February 26, 2010 .::. Size~: 73.98 KBMar 01 08:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Kernel Creator Perceived as Hero, LWN Reviews the Latest Version+History http://ur1.ca/nyfm http://ur1.ca/nyfnMar 01 08:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Fighting the Dark Side: Tech's Heroes and Villains -  CIO.com - Business Technology Leadership .::. Size~: 39.54 KBMar 01 08:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: How old is our kernel? [LWN.net] .::. Size~: 53.87 KBMar 01 08:02
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] X Screwed by #PayPal http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/pocketing-police/ #failMar 01 08:05
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Pocketing Police « DoctorMO's Blog .::. Size~: 28.55 KBMar 01 08:05
Diablo-D3schestowitz: little late on thatMar 01 08:05
schestowitzYesMar 01 08:11
schestowitzI hesitated days agoMar 01 08:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PCLinuxOS 2010 Reaches Beta http://twitter.com/iluvpclinuxos/statuses/9711366233Mar 01 08:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Twitter / pclinuxos: Shipping PCLinuxOS 2010 Be ... .::. Size~: 10.02 KBMar 01 08:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Importance of Distro Choice, and #TinyCore in Review http://ur1.ca/nygu http://ur1.ca/nygwMar 01 08:14
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #RedHat #GNU #Linux Lusts for #Solaris Users, #IBM Helps http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/02/25/red-hat-helps-ibm-pursue-sun-customers/Mar 01 08:18
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Red Hat Helps IBM Pursue Sun Customers | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 48.96 KBMar 01 08:18
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phIRCe-BNcTitle: Why we Use Fedora and not Microsoft (CrossBytes) .::. Size~: 18.73 KBMar 01 08:19
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Promising Features in #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux 10.04 (Out Next Month) http://ur1.ca/nyhm http://ur1.ca/nyho http://ur1.ca/nyhpMar 01 08:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   4 Cool New Features in Ubuntu Lucid Lynx Alpha 3 - Starry Hope .::. Size~: 43.03 KBMar 01 08:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle:   Ubuntu Lucid Makes Scanning Simple - Starry Hope .::. Size~: 48.09 KBMar 01 08:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ubuntu 10.4: My first impressions .::. Size~: 32.29 KBMar 01 08:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxMint Makes #LXDE Flavour http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=1286Mar 01 08:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Linux Mint Blog  » Blog Archive   » Latest news .::. Size~: 19.31 KBMar 01 08:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 60,000 #Android / #Linux Phones Sold Per Day (Android Alone) http://ur1.ca/nyi6 plus: http://ur1.ca/nyi7Mar 01 08:23
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Technology Chronicles  : Google and friends shipping 60,000 Android phones a day .::. Size~: 52.91 KBMar 01 08:23
phIRCe-BNcTitle: 7 Android Devices That Aren't Phones - PCWorld .::. Size~: 54.59 KBMar 01 08:23
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Video: #Linux Boots in Under One Second http://www.embedded-bits.co.uk/?p=213Mar 01 08:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Embedded Bits   .::. Size~: 88.84 KBMar 01 08:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux #Tablet from Fusion Garage Probably Out This Month http://ur1.ca/nyik http://ur1.ca/nyimMar 01 08:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Technology Chronicles  : JooJoo tablet delayed until March 25 .::. Size~: 53.02 KBMar 01 08:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: JooJoo Tablet Release Delayed - PCWorld .::. Size~: 68.07 KBMar 01 08:25
DaemonFCjono, You wouldn't happen to know why Alt+F2 is broken in Lucid?Mar 01 08:28
jonoDaemonFC, works here?Mar 01 08:28
jonoworks fine for meMar 01 08:28
DaemonFCoddMar 01 08:28
jonowhich theme?Mar 01 08:28
DaemonFCNew WaveMar 01 08:28
jonohmmmMar 01 08:29
jonodid you set transparency on the panel?Mar 01 08:29
DaemonFCnoMar 01 08:29
jonoas in, set a transparent pngMar 01 08:29
DaemonFCnoMar 01 08:29
jonothere was an old bug on that a whole backMar 01 08:29
jonono idea then, change the theme to the default one and re-log in and see if it still happensMar 01 08:29
jonoif so, file a bugMar 01 08:30
schestowitzkde?Mar 01 08:31
DaemonFCdoesn't work in Human eitherMar 01 08:32
DaemonFCit works in GNOME ShellMar 01 08:32
DaemonFC:PMar 01 08:32
DaemonFCbut GNOME Shell causes the kernel to bomb out with a null pointer dereference bug randomlyMar 01 08:33
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 08:33
jonoDaemonFC, odd, if it still happening with human and you re-logged in, file a bugMar 01 08:33
DaemonFCWhy would having a different theme matter? (Not being sarcastic)Mar 01 08:33
jonoso, any of you folks joining ubuntu opportunistic developer week this week?Mar 01 08:33
jonoDaemonFC, some themes set panel .pngs that trigger the old bugMar 01 08:34
DaemonFCjono, I'd like to snipe a few issues as you're awareMar 01 08:34
jonobut I think that bug was fixed now anywayMar 01 08:34
jonoDaemonFC, sweet :)Mar 01 08:34
DaemonFCbut I don't see the opportunistic partMar 01 08:34
jonograb Lernid for the best experience :)Mar 01 08:34
jonoyou should pop along to the opening session for sureMar 01 08:34
jonoschestowitz do you do any coding?Mar 01 08:35
jonoI can;t rememberMar 01 08:35
DaemonFCbrb, going to re-loginMar 01 08:35
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #FreeSoftware Licences Beat a #EULA http://elevenislouder.blogspot.com/2010/02/bad-tide.htmlMar 01 08:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Eleven is Louder: Anarchy in the EULA .::. Size~: 72.28 KBMar 01 08:35
jonoDaemonFC, coolMar 01 08:35
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DaemonFCjono, Just hit me.......Mar 01 08:36
jonoDaemonFC, eh?Mar 01 08:36
DaemonFCNot having the X.org from Ubuntu would not cause this would it?Mar 01 08:37
jonohmmmMar 01 08:37
jononot sureMar 01 08:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Seattle P-I ( #Microsoft Booster) Explains Why #FreeSoftware is Better http://ur1.ca/nyjkMar 01 08:37
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 08:37
jonoI doubt itMar 01 08:37
jonoalt-F2 is a gnome featureMar 01 08:37
jonoDaemonFC, maybe ask in #ubuntu-develMar 01 08:37
DaemonFConly stupid question is the one you didn't ask :)Mar 01 08:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mobile Industry Dominated by Free/Open Source Software http://ur1.ca/nyjn http://ur1.ca/nyjoMar 01 08:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 08:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Get smarter about open source - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 72.34 KBMar 01 08:38
jonoDaemonFC, lolMar 01 08:38
jonoall questions are welcome :)Mar 01 08:38
DaemonFCYeah, I did kind of use xorg-edgers because it supports my video card a lot betterMar 01 08:38
jonoDaemonFC, ahhhMar 01 08:38
DaemonFCthat won't be an issue by Ubuntu 10.10 I thinkMar 01 08:38
jonothat could be a cause, I am not sureMar 01 08:38
jonoDaemonFC, sweet :)Mar 01 08:38
DaemonFCby 10.10, Mesa 8.0 will be outMar 01 08:39
jonowickedMar 01 08:39
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Bordeaux for #Solaris / #OpenSolaris, #Oracle Assures Their Livelihood http://ur1.ca/nyk1 http://ur1.ca/nyk2Mar 01 08:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 08:39
DaemonFCand will make for a lot of happy ATI usersMar 01 08:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 08:39
DaemonFCthe current git builds of Mesa 7.8 are quite good thoughMar 01 08:39
jono:)Mar 01 08:40
DaemonFC3d support in vanilla Lucid for RadeonHD 4xxx series is pre-alpha if I had to rate itMar 01 08:40
DaemonFCMesa 7.8 so far has it up to beta qualityMar 01 08:40
DaemonFCodd failures but works for the most partMar 01 08:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Facebook Adopts #HipHop Server http://www.cio.com.au/article/337323/hiphop_steals_web_serving_from_apache_facebookMar 01 08:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle: HipHop steals Web serving from Apache at Facebook - apache, Facebook, HipHop for PHP, open source - CIO .::. Size~: 101.58 KBMar 01 08:41
DaemonFCjono, Prey and DOOM 3 are working in 7.8Mar 01 08:41
DaemonFCso is NexuizMar 01 08:41
jonooh nice!Mar 01 08:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Europe Has Public consultation Regarding #Interoperability http://ec.europa.eu/idabc/en/document/7854Mar 01 08:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle:     IDABC - Public consultation on EIS .::. Size~: 36.02 KBMar 01 08:42
DaemonFCthe Doom 3 support is nice, I've already played through the main game again entirely with open video driversMar 01 08:42
DaemonFCI'll go through Resurrection of Evil at some point shortlyMar 01 08:42
DaemonFCI've played around with the initial level enough to know that the gravity gun thing works :)Mar 01 08:43
DaemonFCcatch imp fireballs and throw them back at themMar 01 08:43
schestowitz[08:35] <jono> schestowitz do you do any coding?Mar 01 08:43
schestowitzYesMar 01 08:43
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jonoschestowitz cool, what do you write in?Mar 01 08:45
jonoPython?Mar 01 08:45
Ender2070schestowitz - it doesn't look good for the var guyMar 01 08:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Project Management Models Debated http://ur1.ca/nyki http://ur1.ca/nykj http://ur1.ca/nykkMar 01 08:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: How to analyse an OSS business model  part one | carlodaffara.conecta.it .::. Size~: 38.44 KBMar 01 08:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Expanding Community Participation «  Ian Skerrett .::. Size~: 28.67 KBMar 01 08:46
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Governance Models - everything you wanted to know but where afraid to ask at OSS Watch team blog .::. Size~: 41.32 KBMar 01 08:46
DaemonFChttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23836/Mar 01 08:46
DaemonFClmaoMar 01 08:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Idea #23836: "open letter to canonical" - Ubuntu brainstorm .::. Size~: 34.96 KBMar 01 08:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Call for Papers on Legal #FreeSoftware Matters http://ur1.ca/nykl http://ur1.ca/nykmMar 01 08:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Call for papers .::. Size~: 13.05 KBMar 01 08:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle: NDAs and FOSS - Linux Magazine Online  .::. Size~: 32.98 KBMar 01 08:47
Ender2070LOLMar 01 08:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Review of #Mozilla Software for Mobile Devices http://ur1.ca/nyky http://ur1.ca/nykzMar 01 08:48
phIRCe-BNcTitle: App Review: Firefox Mobile & Weave | Adventures In Open Source .::. Size~: 56.51 KBMar 01 08:48
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Firefox Mobile Browser Fennec Spotted on Android - PCWorld .::. Size~: 68.25 KBMar 01 08:48
Ender2070what would really be interestingMar 01 08:48
Ender2070is this ideaMar 01 08:48
Ender2070have some free and open source company purchase a game developerMar 01 08:48
DaemonFChttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23838/Mar 01 08:48
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Idea #23838: "Ship the vastly improved AoTuv Vorbis encoder in Ubuntu." - Ubuntu brainstorm .::. Size~: 36.43 KBMar 01 08:48
DaemonFCmineMar 01 08:49
Ender2070like wouldn't it kick ass if redhat bought blizzardMar 01 08:49
Ender2070they're probably the only ones with enough moneyMar 01 08:50
DaemonFCRed Hat isn't a desktop Linux companyMar 01 08:50
DaemonFCwell, corporate desktops yeah, but not home usersMar 01 08:51
Ender2070yeah but if anyone can it would be themMar 01 08:51
DaemonFCjono, Ubuntu Brainstorm gives you a vote on your own proposals?Mar 01 08:51
Ender2070or novellMar 01 08:51
DaemonFCThat's so coolMar 01 08:51
DaemonFCCan my mom vote for them too?Mar 01 08:51
jonoDaemonFC, what do you mean?Mar 01 08:51
DaemonFClolMar 01 08:51
DaemonFCjono, When you make a proposal, you can vote on itMar 01 08:52
Ender2070canonical doesnt have enough money to buy blizzard, mandriva hells no they just got out of bankrupcyMar 01 08:52
jonoyep :)Mar 01 08:52
jonoDaemonFC, we wanted a means for users to show what kind of things they wantMar 01 08:52
jonoI summarize the top ideas and send them to the engineering managers at Canonical :)Mar 01 08:52
DaemonFCjono, Does Brainstorm mean anything? What does it do ultimately? Like if a million people vote YES on my proposalMar 01 08:53
DaemonFCdoes that mean anything happens?Mar 01 08:53
jonoDaemonFC, it is something we always consider in planning each releaseMar 01 08:53
jonoa bunch of things in brainstorm have been fixedMar 01 08:53
DaemonFCso it's worth having an idea for something you want changed in there as well as in a bug report?Mar 01 08:54
jonoDaemonFC, brainstorm is mainly a way of our users communicating needsMar 01 08:54
jonobugs are more appropriate for specific engineering issuesMar 01 08:55
DaemonFCso it's like a local version of getsatisfactionMar 01 08:55
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week This Week - http://is.gd/9r9cn #ubuntu #python #opportunisticdevelopersMar 01 08:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle:                   Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week This Week | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 24.46 KBMar 01 08:56
jonoDaemonFC, never used that, so not really sureMar 01 08:56
DaemonFCit's what it feels like, Songbird uses getsatisfactionMar 01 08:56
DaemonFCso that users can suggest changes to itMar 01 08:56
DaemonFChas votes and all thatMar 01 08:56
jonocool :)Mar 01 08:57
DaemonFCjono, Songbird works a lot better on Linux than it does Windows, at least latelyMar 01 08:59
DaemonFCit used to suck on everythingMar 01 08:59
DaemonFCit fails hard on Windows now, likes to bomb out when syncing portables and use lots of RAMMar 01 08:59
DaemonFCall the bad reviews of it now are probably the Windows version which is hell on wheelsMar 01 08:59
Ender2070http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23841/Mar 01 09:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Idea #23841: "Don't make Yahoo default search engine in 10.04" - Ubuntu brainstorm .::. Size~: 33.61 KBMar 01 09:03
DaemonFCI'll vote that up when it's approvedMar 01 09:03
DaemonFCjono, You want an itunes killer, you guys should slap Songbird inMar 01 09:04
Ender2070amarokMar 01 09:05
Ender20702.2.3 is going to amarok your worldMar 01 09:06
DaemonFCit's not a GTK+ appMar 01 09:06
Ender2070soMar 01 09:06
Ender2070Qt is superior, resistance is futileMar 01 09:06
Ender2070Ubuntu should include all the technologies anyways, that way you can run anythingMar 01 09:07
DaemonFCthat way it wouldn't fit on a CDMar 01 09:07
Ender2070CD's are so 20 years agoMar 01 09:07
Ender2070who doesn't have a dvd burner these daysMar 01 09:08
DaemonFCso you're actually promoting giving them room to bloat the default install withMar 01 09:08
Ender2070$20Mar 01 09:08
DaemonFCwell, CDs are cheaperMar 01 09:08
Ender2070sureMar 01 09:08
Ender2070they have monoMar 01 09:08
DaemonFCand with them shipping millions of CDs, even a few cents per is a hell of a lot of moneyMar 01 09:08
Ender2070they dont ship millions anymoreMar 01 09:09
Ender2070you get 1Mar 01 09:09
Ender2070and they aren't getting millions of new usersMar 01 09:09
Ender2070hey they offer a dvd version dudeMar 01 09:10
Ender2070they could throw it in that oneMar 01 09:11
Ender2070keep the livecd cleanMar 01 09:11
DaemonFCThey've had a DVD for a whileMar 01 09:11
DaemonFCit has the main repository on itMar 01 09:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ACTA Meets Strong Opposition in the #EU http://ur1.ca/nyn7 http://ur1.ca/nyn8 http://ur1.ca/nyn9 http://ur1.ca/nynaMar 01 09:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 09:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Growing Concern From European Officials Over ACTA | Techdirt .::. Size~: 37.76 KBMar 01 09:12
DaemonFCinstalls the same system as the live/alternate CD thoughMar 01 09:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Opposition to ACTA growing rapidly in Brussels - le blog davidhammerstein .::. Size~: 26.34 KBMar 01 09:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: MEPS opposition to secretive Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement grows - New Europe .::. Size~: 51.95 KBMar 01 09:12
Ender2070debian has a blueray imageMar 01 09:13
DaemonFChehMar 01 09:13
DaemonFCeverything in the release on 1 disc I betMar 01 09:13
Ender2070or its like 8 dvdsMar 01 09:13
Ender2070lolMar 01 09:14
jonoEnder2070, we ship on CD because many people don't have DVD burnersMar 01 09:15
jonoso they can't create bootable mediaMar 01 09:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patent Troll Gregory Girard Arrested http://ur1.ca/nynq http://ur1.ca/nynr http://ur1.ca/nyns http://ur1.ca/nyntMar 01 09:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Set for 'Armageddon': Inventor Nabbed With Explosives, Double-Edged Knives .::. Size~: 28.56 KBMar 01 09:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The Prior Art: Patent Litigation Weekly: Inventor from ESN v. Cisco and Troll Tracker Lawsuits Arrested on Weapons Charges .::. Size~: 57.23 KBMar 01 09:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Police say man with weapons cache was preparing for Armageddon - The Boston Globe .::. Size~: 33.37 KBMar 01 09:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Inventor Involved In Patent Troll Tracker Lawsuit Arrested For Weapons Stockpiling | Techdirt .::. Size~: 44.96 KBMar 01 09:16
DaemonFCjono, check GNOME Compatibility in Compiz Config brings back Alt+F2Mar 01 09:17
DaemonFCjust in case anyone asks youMar 01 09:17
jonoDaemonFC, ahhh thanks for the heads up :)Mar 01 09:17
DaemonFCshould be the defaultMar 01 09:18
DaemonFCoh wellMar 01 09:18
DaemonFCI probably had it cleared when I was playing with simple ccsmMar 01 09:18
DaemonFCjono, Don't people pester you about "Where is the cube thing I saw on Youtube?"Mar 01 09:19
DaemonFCheheMar 01 09:19
jonoDaemonFC, lol, sometimesMar 01 09:19
jono:)Mar 01 09:19
jonowell I think I am going to head to bedMar 01 09:20
jonobusy week this week :)Mar 01 09:20
DaemonFCjono, One thing firstMar 01 09:20
jonosureMar 01 09:20
DaemonFCat your group hug meetings and allMar 01 09:20
jonorightMar 01 09:20
DaemonFCcould you guys plan to plan to take a look at ubuntu-desktop and try turning some hard dependencies into recommends wherever possible?Mar 01 09:20
DaemonFCit makes Ubuntu more flexible :)Mar 01 09:21
DaemonFC"Only depend on it if we really need it" type goalMar 01 09:21
jonoDaemonFC, write up a spec and then propose it to the ubuntu-devel mailing list - lets see what the community thinks :)Mar 01 09:21
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 09:21
jonocheers DaemonFCMar 01 09:22
jononight all, see you tomorrow!Mar 01 09:22
DaemonFCnight nightMar 01 09:22
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Headed to bed, see you all in six. :-)Mar 01 09:23
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Benioff Calls Microsoft "Somewhat Disgusting" http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2011190842_goldmansachs26.htmlMar 01 09:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Business & Technology | Few big investors more positive about tech stocks after Goldman conference | Seattle Times Newspaper .::. Size~: 57.76 KBMar 01 09:39
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] RS@remin: BBC blocks !opensource software from iPlayer video service http://tinyurl.com/ycledd3 !fsf !GNUMar 01 10:27
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schestowitzHeh: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBaNNSSNgLMMar 01 10:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- The Atheist Community No Existe .::. Size~: 141.27 KBMar 01 10:40
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] ISOC leaks some document about measures to filter P2P traffic out of the Internet: http://i5.be/ax5Mar 01 11:30
DaemonFCSongBird is no longer stupid and evil :)Mar 01 11:31
DaemonFCIt actually uses less RAM than Rhythmbox :PMar 01 11:31
schestowitzhttp://mupen64.emulation64.com/Mar 01 11:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Mupen64 .::. Size~: 29.58 KBMar 01 11:35
schestowitzIs this really dependent on Mono?Mar 01 11:35
schestowitzI can't find a linkMar 01 11:35
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en-GB&q=Mupen64+mono&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8Mar 01 11:36
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Mupen64 mono - Google Search .::. Size~: 26.3 KBMar 01 11:36
zoobabThe document ISOC leaked seems to be about Internet filtering in the UKMar 01 11:36
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?q=site:mupen64.emulation64.com+mono&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8&hl=en-GBMar 01 11:36
phIRCe-BNcTitle: site:mupen64.emulation64.com mono - Google Search .::. Size~: 15.16 KBMar 01 11:36
zoobab The UK Parliament is presently considering introducing technical measures "to tackleMar 01 11:37
zoobab the problem of unlawful peer-to-peer (P2P) file-sharing". This proposal (as it isMar 01 11:37
zoobab presently expressed) would grant the regulator, Ofcom, the power to oblige ISPs toMar 01 11:37
zoobab apply certain technical measures against repeat offenders if other, non-technical,Mar 01 11:37
zoobab measures prove to be deficient in reducing infringement.1Mar 01 11:37
DaemonFCyeah, the UK is doing whatever the US government tells it to doMar 01 11:38
schestowitzYou mean, US companiesMar 01 11:38
DaemonFCyou know the push in the EU to strip ACTA of the 3 strikes crap is not coming from the UKMar 01 11:38
schestowitzSOme isMar 01 11:39
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_Goblin Is this really dependent on Mono? I can't find a linkMar 01 11:39
DaemonFCschestowitz, What's dependent on Mono?Mar 01 11:39
schestowitzDaemonFC: bolloxMar 01 11:40
schestowitzI just got this an hour ago:Mar 01 11:40
schestowitzSubject: Opposition to acta growing in BrusselsMar 01 11:40
schestowitzTo: s@schestowitz.comMar 01 11:40
schestowitz> Dear Roy:Mar 01 11:40
schestowitz> Mar 01 11:40
schestowitz> This guy is one of the few honest politicians I have heard about (and I think now he has quitted politics):Mar 01 11:40
schestowitz> Mar 01 11:40
schestowitz> http://www.davidhammerstein.com/article-opposition-to-acta-growing-rapidly-in-brussels-45614348.htmlMar 01 11:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Opposition to ACTA growing rapidly in Brussels - le blog davidhammerstein .::. Size~: 26.34 KBMar 01 11:40
schestowitzDaemonFC:  Mupen64Mar 01 11:41
DaemonFCschestowitz, It's CMar 01 11:42
DaemonFCor do you mean Mupen64Plus?Mar 01 11:44
DaemonFCI just looked at Mupen64 and it's all CMar 01 11:44
DaemonFCschestowitz, Mupen64Plus is all C too from what I've seen so farMar 01 11:46
DaemonFCno C# there at allMar 01 11:47
DaemonFCyou might want to ask _Goblin where he got the idea it was .Net/Mono fromMar 01 11:47
DaemonFCschestowitz, Who is Bruce Wagner? Do you know?Mar 01 11:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] I love my Phillips shn2500 earplugs with noise cancellation. Even though they add a bit of hiss, it's a lot better than openspace noise.Mar 01 12:03
schestowitzMaybe they tied it in as a dependencies incorrectlyMar 01 12:10
schestowitzI don't know a Bruce WagnerMar 01 12:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: either way, we ought to tell Ubuntu to remove unnecessary deps on monoMar 01 12:10
DaemonFCschestowitz, They added a new one in LucidMar 01 12:11
DaemonFCschestowitz, They added gbrainy to the default installMar 01 12:12
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GbrainyMar 01 12:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Gbrainy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 29.72 KBMar 01 12:13
DaemonFCschestowitz, http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Jan-03.htmlMar 01 12:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Mono on the OLPC - Miguel de Icaza .::. Size~: 13.86 KBMar 01 12:13
DaemonFCinfecting the OLPC with MonoMar 01 12:14
DaemonFCtalks about gbrainyMar 01 12:14
schestowitzMono?Mar 01 12:17
cubezzzvia arm laptop, 117.59 (USD) shipping includedMar 01 12:17
schestowitzDefault?Mar 01 12:17
DaemonFCschestowitz, yes to bothMar 01 12:18
DaemonFCschestowitz, So they're not moving away from Mono, they're adding more apps to the default install which require MonoMar 01 12:19
DaemonFChttp://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6000/screenshotol.pngMar 01 12:29
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 12:29
DaemonFCSongbird :)Mar 01 12:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #comScore is #Microsoft is comScore is Deceiving (and How Microsoft Controls Minds) http://ur1.ca/nzfuMar 01 12:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: comScore is Microsoft is comScore is Deceiving (and How Microsoft Controls Minds) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 86.23 KBMar 01 12:35
MinceRj0Mar 01 12:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Getting really quite excited about the @uupc recording tonight. So much stuff to pack in!Mar 01 12:54
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] Good morning. An empty day ahead of me. No Olympics to watch. Hum. Maybe I should do some writing...Mar 01 12:59
schestowitz> Post this around any UK online forum ...Mar 01 12:59
schestowitz> Mar 01 12:59
schestowitz> "The decision to block open source plugins is a matter for BBCMar 01 12:59
schestowitz> Management. The Trust has not received any complaints on this issueMar 01 12:59
schestowitz> and has no plans to look into it further at present,"Mar 01 12:59
schestowitz> Mar 01 12:59
schestowitz> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/01/no_bbc_trust_probe_iplayer_swf_verification/Mar 01 12:59
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC Trust won't probe iPlayer open source gripes • The Register .::. Size~: 23.46 KBMar 01 12:59
cubezzzBBC sucks :)Mar 01 13:05
cubezzzis there any media that doesn't suck?Mar 01 13:05
DaemonFCcubezzz, http://marccooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/FOXNEWS.JPGMar 01 13:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 13:07
DaemonFChttp://www.whatmyworldslike.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/faux-news-fairly-unbalanced.gifMar 01 13:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/gif type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 13:07
cubezzz"So you ask what killed the Arm Netbook? The answer is the WinTel duopoly got involved and killed it to prevent it from eroding the X86 Windows monopoly. MS and Intel work VERY hard to make sure ARM/Linux Netbooks aren't produced in volume or at prices that will hurt them"Mar 01 13:07
cubezzzthis explains a lotMar 01 13:07
DaemonFChttp://www.nextleftnotes.org/NLN/photo-gallery/2005_ufpj_assembly/images/19_fox_news.jpgMar 01 13:07
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 13:07
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 13:08
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DaemonFChttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3422/3256978925_f01f29cce6.jpgMar 01 13:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 13:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is ‘Spamming’ the #Government Using Many Identical Letters (Literally Hundreds of Them) http://ur1.ca/nzirMar 01 13:10
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 13:10
DaemonFChttp://failads.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/fox-news-sucks.jpgMar 01 13:10
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 13:10
schestowitzHow would you go about debugging when a microphone is not detected by a laptop in Mandriva?Mar 01 13:10
DaemonFCschestowitz, depends on if it's usb or analog jack I guessMar 01 13:11
oiaohmFirst question is it not detected or is it just muted.Mar 01 13:11
DaemonFCor if Pulseaudio is fucking around with itMar 01 13:11
oiaohmI have found a few times them just muted at the alsa level and not showing up in pulseaudioMar 01 13:12
DaemonFCit does that sometimesMar 01 13:12
cubezzzyou can get these VIA ARM netbooks pretty easily nowMar 01 13:12
schestowitzThanksMar 01 13:12
schestowitzIt's not for meMar 01 13:12
DaemonFCRhythmbox 0.12.7 just hit Ubuntu: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox/0.12.7-0ubuntu1/+changelogMar 01 13:13
DaemonFClots of bugfixesMar 01 13:13
DaemonFC    - Support for pidgin in the IM status pluginMar 01 13:14
DaemonFCthank you!Mar 01 13:14
DaemonFCI'd like to see it autofetch album coversMar 01 13:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @glynmoody: Write to Your MEPs - http://bit.ly/aKoCLl politicians are waking up to #ACTA threat: pl. encourage them to sign EU declarationMar 01 13:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Act on ACTA: Write to Your MEPs - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 76.3 KBMar 01 13:21
schestowitzoiaohm: it's not app specific that the mic does not workMar 01 13:32
schestowitzI had him try kmixMar 01 13:32
schestowitzIs there a command to check if it's detected?Mar 01 13:32
oiaohmaudio is one of those nasty areas I stay clear of most of the time schestowitzMar 01 13:36
schestowitzThe audio worksMar 01 13:36
schestowitzSo the onboard thing gets detectedMar 01 13:36
oiaohmmic is part of the audio stack.Mar 01 13:36
schestowitzBut the microphone is an issueMar 01 13:37
schestowitzoiaohm: yesMar 01 13:37
oiaohmSome cases even if the audio out works the driver loaded by Linux is loaded wrong as well.Mar 01 13:37
schestowitzWhich is why I think it's maybe something simpleMar 01 13:37
schestowitzLike a switchMar 01 13:37
oiaohmSome drivers need like a model flagMar 01 13:37
oiaohmSo ports turn up right on the audio.Mar 01 13:37
oiaohmWould you know what audio driver is loaded.Mar 01 13:38
schestowitzI'll checkMar 01 13:38
schestowitzALSAMar 01 13:41
schestowitzJust that...Mar 01 13:41
schestowitzHold on...Mar 01 13:41
cubezzznasty? It's not that bad :)Mar 01 13:45
schestowitzNot for me, it's notMar 01 13:46
cubezzzno worse than tv tuner cardsMar 01 13:46
DaemonFCTV tuner cards are the devil in LinuxMar 01 13:47
cubezzzI can't agreeMar 01 13:47
DaemonFCsure there's a few that just work and incidentally most of those are only sold in EuropeMar 01 13:47
cubezzzbut I did a lot of research on the subjectMar 01 13:47
DaemonFCand the ones you can get in the US cost an arm, leg, eye, kidney, and testicleMar 01 13:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] ACTA wordt inzet verkiezingsstrijd http://tinyurl.com/y9yrybrMar 01 13:48
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ACTA wordt inzet verkiezingsstrijd | Webwereld .::. Size~: 47.74 KBMar 01 13:48
DaemonFCI kind of wish people would stop making media center software for all three TV tuners that workMar 01 13:48
DaemonFC:PMar 01 13:48
DaemonFCyou have more media center apps than you do models of cards that operateMar 01 13:49
cubezzzhauppage, pchdtv...Mar 01 13:49
DaemonFCmost of the reasonably priced cards that work and are sold in the US need a binary driver from the manufacturer and I'm not really sure I want to invest in any more hardware like thatMar 01 13:50
cubezzznonsense, just look at the bttv driver source codeMar 01 13:50
DaemonFCit has a tendency to just stop working one day and you can't get the company to respondMar 01 13:50
cubezzzthere's lots of cards supportedMar 01 13:50
cubezzzalways research things first, buy secondMar 01 13:51
cubezzzthat keeps you out of troubleMar 01 13:51
DaemonFCyeah, and I'm telling you, you're rolling the dice if you pay less than $100Mar 01 13:51
DaemonFCI did research it a while backMar 01 13:51
cubezzzI paid $15 on ebayMar 01 13:52
DaemonFCPCI?Mar 01 13:52
cubezzzyesMar 01 13:52
DaemonFCI don't have any PCI slots :)Mar 01 13:52
DaemonFCI have a PCI-E x1 open and plenty of USBMar 01 13:53
cubezzzsee, this is why older hardware is sometimes betterMar 01 13:53
cubezzzthe new design of motherboards isn't idealMar 01 13:53
DaemonFCwell, it's not that I don't have any PCI slots with nothing in themMar 01 13:53
cubezzzunless you buy really up-scale server stuffMar 01 13:53
DaemonFCmy video card is blocking them allMar 01 13:53
cubezzzok, this computer you have is sounding worse and worse...Mar 01 13:54
cubezzztyan boards have lots of pci slotsMar 01 13:55
cubezzzyou could just build another box and stick stuff in there insteadMar 01 13:55
DaemonFCI have three PCI slots that I can't useMar 01 13:56
DaemonFCBIGASS video cardMar 01 13:56
MinceRi don't know that brand :>Mar 01 13:56
cubezzzwhich one? ...so I can avoid :)Mar 01 13:56
DaemonFCthey must not do business in HungaryMar 01 13:56
DaemonFC;)Mar 01 13:56
MinceRthough i've read about similar on Daily VictimMar 01 13:57
MinceRhttp://archive.gamespy.com/dailyvictim/index.asp?id=313Mar 01 13:57
phIRCe-BNcTitle: GameSpy.com - Daily Victim: A tribute to online gaming dementia. .::. Size~: 9.15 KBMar 01 13:57
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gartner Still Thinks People Only Ever Buy #GNU #Linux http://ur1.ca/nznt #spin #greed #unix #fossMar 01 13:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Gartner Still Thinks People Only Ever Buy GNU/Linux | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 79.35 KBMar 01 13:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] RT @Webwereld Driekwart internetters blijft downloaden bij ver ... http://webwereld.nl/t/65310.htmlMar 01 13:59
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Driekwart internetters blijft downloaden bij verbod | Webwereld .::. Size~: 47.38 KBMar 01 13:59
MinceR(the results page is hidden at http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/dailyvictim/vote.asp?id=313&dontvote=true )Mar 01 13:59
cubezzzGartner isn't too impartial eitherMar 01 13:59
DaemonFCschestowitz, What do you think of the gbrainy thing?Mar 01 14:01
DaemonFCBanshee by default in 10.10 perhaps?Mar 01 14:02
schestowitzI'm gonna mention this laterMar 01 14:05
schestowitzAnd no, banshee is just rumoursMar 01 14:05
DaemonFCOpenSolaris lives onMar 01 14:11
DaemonFCyay for themMar 01 14:11
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] Why the Winter Olympics are More Important Than the Summer Olympics http://bit.ly/bg5RLgMar 01 14:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Why the Winter Olympics are More Important Than the Summer Olympics «  Through the Looking Glass .::. Size~: 85.71 KBMar 01 14:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Proprietary Software Encourages Breaking of the Law http://ur1.ca/nzse How non-Free software can criminalise a lot of peopleMar 01 14:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Proprietary Software Encourages Breaking of the Law | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 89.19 KBMar 01 14:45
*vermilionnnn has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)Mar 01 14:57
DaemonFCyes, my opinion of Songbird is coming way up from where it wasMar 01 14:58
DaemonFCthough last time I tried it was years ago on someone's Vista PCMar 01 14:58
MinceRcould it go anywhere else? :>Mar 01 14:58
DaemonFCMinceR, It runs on most important desktop operating systemsMar 01 14:58
DaemonFCso, yeahMar 01 14:59
MinceRi mean, aside from "coming way up"Mar 01 14:59
MinceRor rather, 'as opposed to'Mar 01 14:59
DaemonFCoh, well, it did workMar 01 14:59
DaemonFCif it crashed and didn't do anything I would have thought less of itMar 01 14:59
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 14:59
DaemonFCI've encoded some of my Tool CDs and that's what I'm listening to nowMar 01 15:00
DaemonFCMinceR, That's what iFail users don't get, double bitrate and a better encoder used to make files shouldn't be an "upgrade" they have to pay for againMar 01 15:01
DaemonFCso why do they blog about "upgrading" their libraries as if it were a feature?Mar 01 15:02
DaemonFCthat's what has confounded me more about iTunes than anything elseMar 01 15:02
MinceRbecause the cult tells them soMar 01 15:02
MinceRthey believe everything steve jobs says, without considerationMar 01 15:02
DaemonFCif they bought the CD it would have been cheaper at that pointMar 01 15:03
DaemonFCvs. buying the files twice to get better bitrate and no DRMMar 01 15:03
DaemonFCok, saying 128k AAC is CD quality was a knee slapper, but "upgrading" for an additional 40 cents per song they already paid 99 cents for was a good follow upMar 01 15:04
DaemonFCyou'd think even the most brain damaged fanboy would see past either of thoseMar 01 15:04
DaemonFCthe AAC pushers spend a lot of money running their own tests to tell you what you can or can't tell is the CD or the absurdly low bitrate AAC fileMar 01 15:06
DaemonFCor actually, probably don't even run tests, paying for news exposure to "test data" they fabricatedMar 01 15:06
DaemonFCI've done my own extensive tests with every AAC encoder I could get my hands onMar 01 15:08
DaemonFCIt's not that great a format, it just isn'tMar 01 15:08
DaemonFCin many cases I'd rather buy an MP3 if I had to pick between themMar 01 15:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Software Patents Kill Another Program for #Linux ( #Android ) http://ur1.ca/nzuo #swpat #Cequint #parasite #usptoMar 01 15:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Software Patents Kill Another Program for Linux (Android) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 79.26 KBMar 01 15:09
DaemonFCVorbis and MPC are the only lossy formats that clearly surpass MP3 across a wide variety of samplesMar 01 15:10
MinceRMPC?Mar 01 15:10
DaemonFCMinceR, Another open source codec, called MusepackMar 01 15:11
MinceRicMar 01 15:11
DaemonFCIt heavily extends MPEG Layer IIMar 01 15:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @webmink: H.264 licenses don't entitle you to distribute your own work. Greedy & disgusting: http://icio.us/uxceviMar 01 15:11
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 62.07 KBMar 01 15:11
MinceRhow does musepack compare to vorbis?Mar 01 15:11
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DaemonFCMinceR, The reason Musepack is not ideal is because it's optimized for mid to high bitrates and fails badly at lower bitratesMar 01 15:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Morning, people of the tubes!Mar 01 15:12
DaemonFCit meets Vorbis at mid bitrates, exceeds it past 256k or soMar 01 15:12
DaemonFCVorbis beats Musepack at 128k or lowerMar 01 15:12
DaemonFCI wouldn't say Musepack has any clear benefit over Vorbis until 192-256kMar 01 15:13
DaemonFCso that makes it worthless for streamingMar 01 15:13
MinceRdepends on bandwidth :>Mar 01 15:13
DaemonFCI use Vorbis mainly for the good hardware supportMar 01 15:14
DaemonFCif MPC had equal hardware support, I might use it insteadMar 01 15:14
DaemonFCRockbox understands it and Rockbox has initial support for my playerMar 01 15:15
DaemonFCso I may look into switching to MPC in the near futureMar 01 15:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] O formato de vídeo do Google, H.264, não vos garante o direito de distribuição dos vossos vídeos: http://is.gd/9sgx2 Deviam utilizar TheoraMar 01 15:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 64.9 KBMar 01 15:16
DaemonFCMinceR, The funny thing about Musepack is that it can surpass CD bitrate in any given frameMar 01 15:16
DaemonFCand in VBR mode it can choose between 0-1300 kbpsMar 01 15:17
DaemonFCone problem that has been dogging them though is that it may be patent encumbered since it's an extended version of mp2Mar 01 15:19
*jono has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)Mar 01 15:19
DaemonFCI'm not a lawyer so I'm not going to rule if that's FUD or notMar 01 15:20
DaemonFCthe makers of MPC deny that it infringes thoughMar 01 15:20
DaemonFCVorbis is good enough, smart enough, and gosh darn it people like itMar 01 15:21
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 15:21
DaemonFCMinceR, Storage space is less constraining than it has been and people can be more generous with the bitrate. I think the most likely use of 192-256kbps would be home users building a personal libraryMar 01 15:25
DaemonFCbut you'd pay a fortune in bandwidth for streaming at those bitratesMar 01 15:25
DaemonFCalso, a more efficient encoder/format is always better than increasing the bitrate on a format that sucks and an encoder that sucksMar 01 15:26
DaemonFCyou could go back to 1998 an encode an MP3 at CBR 320 and compare that to a 128k Vorbis file from Aotuv's Vorbis encoder now, and the Vorbis would still be superiorMar 01 15:27
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] RS @schestowitz: Software Patents Kill Another Program for #Linux ( #Android ) http://ur1.ca/nzuo #swpat #Cequint #parasite #usptoMar 01 15:27
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Software Patents Kill Another Program for Linux (Android) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 79.26 KBMar 01 15:27
DaemonFCencoders get better and the need to up the bitrate is less than it was before. yay progress!Mar 01 15:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Folks, in 40mins Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week kicks off - go and grab Lernid or connect on IRC! http://is.gd/9sjJA #ubuntu #uodwMar 01 15:29
phIRCe-BNcTitle:                   Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week Kicks Off In An Hour | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 23.87 KBMar 01 15:29
DaemonFCIf any Crapple fanboys were really audiophiles, a 128k AAC would send them running from the room with their shirt over their headsMar 01 15:29
DaemonFCthat's why I laugh when anyone says "audiophile" and "iPod", because the words are mutually exclusiveMar 01 15:29
DaemonFCthough 192k AoTuv Vorbis is equal to the CD to my ears on my (nice) speakers, and I can say that with complete confidence due to ABXMar 01 15:30
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DaemonFCjono here could tell you that I would run from the room with my shirt over my head if I were to listen to any 7digital MP3s (or any MP3s for that matter) because jono is a smart fellow and liked by allMar 01 15:32
jonololMar 01 15:32
jonoDaemonFC, :)Mar 01 15:32
DaemonFCI'm a fan of the tool that gets the job done the best, the highest percentage of the time, and if that makes me biased to the AoTuv Vorbis encoder, then I'm guilty as chargedMar 01 15:34
DaemonFCand if I have to go into campaign mode to get Ubuntu to see this, ok then :)Mar 01 15:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Android Software developer do not have the time and money to fight software patents: http://i5.be/aycMar 01 15:35
phIRCe-BNcTitle: City Caller ID is already patented by another company .::. Size~: 11.15 KBMar 01 15:35
DaemonFCbreak out the brass band and we'll have a street parade in front of their headquarters in "Isle of Man"Mar 01 15:35
DaemonFCB-)Mar 01 15:35
DaemonFCso jono What is the whole Lernid thing about and did I see an introduction to Python? and what does that do for me assuming I know nothing about Python?Mar 01 15:37
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] there's nothing like good heavy metal for clearing the mind while developing...Mar 01 15:37
jonohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lernid :)Mar 01 15:37
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Lernid - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 12.8 KBMar 01 15:37
jonointro to python was last weekMar 01 15:37
jonobut check out my session in 30minsMar 01 15:37
DaemonFCdarnitMar 01 15:38
jonoit explains what we are doing for opp devMar 01 15:38
jonoyou can install Lernid from Lucid :)Mar 01 15:38
jonoits in Universe :)Mar 01 15:38
DaemonFCI may just buy Python For DummiesMar 01 15:38
DaemonFCdo they make that?Mar 01 15:38
jonoDaemonFC, Lernid is a little tool I wrote to make online learning really easy, it connects you to the event simple, shows slides and webpages and moreMar 01 15:38
jonoyep :)Mar 01 15:38
jonoyou gonna join us DaemonFC?Mar 01 15:38
DaemonFCpossiblyMar 01 15:39
DaemonFCHow easy is Python to learn assuming the last computer programming class I had was in 5th grade and covered BASIC (which was on our Apple II no less)?Mar 01 15:39
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 15:39
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? http://i5.be/aydMar 01 15:40
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 64.03 KBMar 01 15:40
jonoDaemonFC, it is *really* simple :)Mar 01 15:41
jonothats why I do it!Mar 01 15:41
jonoI am a shit developerMar 01 15:41
DaemonFCI've seen plenty of nifty things done in PythonMar 01 15:41
jonobut I like to write programsMar 01 15:41
DaemonFCso I assumed it was hard to learnMar 01 15:42
jonoDaemonFC, yeah, it is sweet, and this week provides a stack of sessions showing you how to get started :)Mar 01 15:42
DaemonFCthings that can do useful things are usually hell on wheels to learnMar 01 15:42
jonomy first session shows you how to get an app running for Ubuntyu right away :)Mar 01 15:42
jonoDaemonFC, join #ubuntu-app-devel - that is where we hang out :)Mar 01 15:42
DaemonFCjono, One more app in Python is one that wasn't done in C#Mar 01 15:43
DaemonFCthat's one thing that makes me like it alreadyMar 01 15:43
jonoDaemonFC, there you go, great contribution :)Mar 01 15:43
jonograb Lernid and come and check out the first session in 25Mar 01 15:43
jonoshould be fun :)Mar 01 15:43
DaemonFCwhat's the event name?Mar 01 15:44
DaemonFCopportunistic?Mar 01 15:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @zoobab: Android Software developer do not have the time and money to fight software patents: http://i5.be/aycMar 01 15:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @zoobab: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? http://i5.be/aydMar 01 15:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: City Caller ID is already patented by another company .::. Size~: 11.15 KBMar 01 15:45
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 63.21 KBMar 01 15:45
DaemonFCand what IRC server is this on, Freenode?Mar 01 15:46
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] using clockingit.com for tracking a mini project ;-) which is powered by freebsd and rails :DMar 01 15:47
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] #nowplaying "Somebody's me... " - Enrique IglesiasMar 01 15:47
jonoDaemonFC, yepMar 01 15:47
jonobut Lernid just connects you - you don't need to work about that :)Mar 01 15:48
jonojust connect to Lernid select Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week and bam! you are there :)Mar 01 15:48
DaemonFChmm, I wonder why the IRC server didn't change my name thenMar 01 15:49
DaemonFCsince I didn't give it a passwordMar 01 15:49
DaemonFCoh wellMar 01 15:49
MinceRi wonder if there are lossless video codecsMar 01 15:50
MinceRespecially ones that rely on similarities between framesMar 01 15:50
DaemonFCthere areMar 01 15:50
DaemonFCthe market for them is understandably low since the file output is massiveMar 01 15:51
MinceRindeed. but storage capacities are growing. :)Mar 01 15:51
DaemonFCusually the only people that even know about them are movie producersMar 01 15:51
DaemonFCMinceR, Really high bitrate MPEG-2 seems to be what the movie industry likes to use (Blu Ray)Mar 01 15:52
MinceRblu-ray is still mpeg-2?Mar 01 15:52
DaemonFCor VC-1 (Microsoft WMV-HD with some improvements)Mar 01 15:52
DaemonFCMinceR, Blu Ray is MPEG-2 or VC-1, but only a few titles use VC-1, it's not popularMar 01 15:52
MinceRwhat happened to AVC?Mar 01 15:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "if you can fake sincerity, you have got it made" #usa #politics http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm #hcr #gopMar 01 15:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 89.29 KBMar 01 15:53
DaemonFCMinceR, Not used on Blu RayMar 01 15:53
DaemonFCWho knows? Your guess is as good as mineMar 01 15:53
MinceRit's strange that m$ managed to push their crap on blu-ray even though they were on hd-dvd's sideMar 01 15:53
DaemonFCThey could have done HD movies in the same quality on DL-DVD media with thatMar 01 15:53
MinceR(weren't they?)Mar 01 15:53
DaemonFCthey wanted to justify a new format with lost of DRM is my guessMar 01 15:54
DaemonFC*lotsMar 01 15:54
DaemonFCMinceR, DL-DVD sized AVC rips of Blu Rays are popular in warez circulation :PMar 01 15:54
DaemonFCand they still look fantasticMar 01 15:55
DaemonFCdon't ask how I knowMar 01 15:55
MinceR:)Mar 01 15:55
DaemonFCMinceR, I'd like to be able to dump a Blu Ray using libtheora 1.1 just to see how it stacks upMar 01 15:56
DaemonFCI think "Thusnelda" does a great job with DVD ripsMar 01 15:56
DaemonFClibtheora 1.0 was horribleMar 01 15:56
DaemonFCMinceR, That's one reason I'm adamant about having the AoTuv Vorbis encoderMar 01 15:57
DaemonFCthe audio trackMar 01 15:57
DaemonFCAC-3 > AAC is bad enough, lolMar 01 15:57
DaemonFC(or to MP3)Mar 01 15:58
DaemonFCif you're on Linux you'd want to use MP3 for the audio track if you're making an Xvid because FAAC is pooMar 01 15:58
MinceRi'd want to use vorbis :>Mar 01 15:59
DaemonFCVorbis doesn't fit the containers that Xvid supportsMar 01 15:59
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DaemonFCwhich is why having a theora encoder that doesn't blow is a good thing :)Mar 01 15:59
MinceRright, xvid is a container, not a video codecMar 01 16:00
MinceRthen i wouldn't want to use xvid, i guessMar 01 16:00
DaemonFCMinceR, I suppose you could use MKV to pair Xvid and VorbisMar 01 16:00
DaemonFCbut why?Mar 01 16:00
DaemonFClolMar 01 16:00
MinceRbecause vorbis is better than mp3?Mar 01 16:01
DaemonFCan MPEG/Vorbis/Matroska cordon bleu?Mar 01 16:01
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 16:01
DaemonFCala MincerMar 01 16:01
MinceRsomething like thatMar 01 16:02
DaemonFCI don't even want to think about what kind of hardware you have that could decode all thatMar 01 16:02
MinceRbut generally i prefer to leave stuff in its original formatMar 01 16:02
DaemonFCbut you have some really good hardware :)Mar 01 16:02
MinceRany reencoding will lose qualityMar 01 16:02
DaemonFCgive me one pleaseMar 01 16:02
DaemonFCobviously software playback would not be a problemMar 01 16:02
DaemonFCif nothing else, VLC could do itMar 01 16:03
MinceRwell, that's all i haveMar 01 16:03
MinceRi tried AVC with VDPAU but it wasn't any less choppy than in software via ffmpegMar 01 16:03
DaemonFCwell, knock yourself out thenMar 01 16:03
DaemonFCI'll probably just be using Theora/Vorbis nowMar 01 16:03
DaemonFCit's reached a point where that's viableMar 01 16:04
MinceRi've only had playback problems with full hd video (1080)Mar 01 16:04
DaemonFChmmm, crap video card?Mar 01 16:06
MinceRnvidia quadro fx 2700mMar 01 16:08
MinceRafaik it isn't crapMar 01 16:08
DaemonFChmmm, you must sell drugs for a livingMar 01 16:10
DaemonFCreally good onesMar 01 16:10
DaemonFCbut I have a RadeonHD 4670 with 1 GB GDDR3Mar 01 16:10
DaemonFCvideo playback has not been an issueMar 01 16:10
DaemonFCATI's pig fucking drivers have been an issue (as evidenced by the open source ones being less painful)Mar 01 16:11
DaemonFCbut never video playbackMar 01 16:11
DaemonFCand pardon my FrenchMar 01 16:11
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Seems like i missed "Carte Blanche" and Richard M stallman's talk :( http://www.cb.csmit.org/Mar 01 16:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @glynmoody: How do I hate thee, Digital Economy Bill? Let me count the ways - http://bit.ly/9rmwPw good point: UK entrepreneurs sufferMar 01 16:17
phIRCe-BNcTitle: How do I hate thee, Digital Economy Bill? Let me count the ways& | Online Journalism Blog .::. Size~: 29.89 KBMar 01 16:17
DaemonFCMinceR, Back to audio though, music from Tool is usually a good way to torture test codecsMar 01 16:18
DaemonFCespecially to see if pre-echo is a problemMar 01 16:18
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] This comic gave me a much-needed giggle. http://advogato.org/person/louie/diary/618.html #humour #fineprint #lawMar 01 16:19
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Advogato: Blog for louie .::. Size~: 4.25 KBMar 01 16:19
MinceRi've never heard of ToolMar 01 16:19
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_%28band%29Mar 01 16:20
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Tool (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 264.56 KBMar 01 16:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #BBC Continues to Abuse #GNU #Linux Users While Promoting #Microsoft Products http://ur1.ca/o032Mar 01 16:24
phIRCe-BNcTitle: MSBBC Continues to Abuse GNU/Linux Users While Promoting Microsoft Products (at Taxpayers Expense) | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 88.47 KBMar 01 16:24
DaemonFCthis is like IRC, powerpoint, a terminal, and a web browser at once (Lernid)Mar 01 16:26
DaemonFCnot badMar 01 16:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @MarceloBranco: Absurdo. Pela soberania NAO aos lobistas gringos! Brasil pode ser punido por software livre http://bit.ly/cxbqJOMar 01 16:28
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Brasil pode ser punido por software livre - PSL Brasil - Software Livre Brasil .::. Size~: 23.5 KBMar 01 16:28
DaemonFC"<stevefed5291> I wish I were in a java class, this is the lowest level comp-sci class they have. We're learning how to use XP... I'm moments away from finding something high-up to tie my neck to"Mar 01 16:28
DaemonFClmaoMar 01 16:28
*amarsh04 wonders whether anyone wishes they were in a java method <g,d,r>Mar 01 16:35
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Omar87Greetings everyone.Mar 01 16:44
MinceRhayMar 01 16:45
DaemonFCMinceR, The cover flow plugin for Songbird works as well as cover flow in iTunesMar 01 16:45
DaemonFCand by "well" I mean blank cover art for half your albums and slow as shitMar 01 16:45
DaemonFCheheMar 01 16:45
MinceR:>Mar 01 16:45
DaemonFChttp://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5541/screenshotyl.pngMar 01 16:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 16:47
DaemonFCand yes MinceR , ToolMar 01 16:47
DaemonFCawesome bandMar 01 16:47
DaemonFC"I need to watch things die from a good safe distance Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies You all feel the same so why can't we just admit it? "Mar 01 16:48
DaemonFCyes, awesome band B-)Mar 01 16:48
DaemonFC"Vicariously, I live while the whole world dies  Much better you than I"Mar 01 16:51
DaemonFClolMar 01 16:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Intel Unhappy With Failed Migration to #Vista7 , Radical #Microsoft Spin Begins http://ur1.ca/o06lMar 01 16:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Intel Unhappy With Failed Migration to Vista 7, Radical Microsoft Spin Begins | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 86.81 KBMar 01 16:52
MinceRWP says they also use AVC on blu-ray :>Mar 01 16:55
DaemonFCI haven't seen this in practiceMar 01 16:56
DaemonFCcould just be that the player specs demand it but nothing uses itMar 01 16:56
MinceRcould beMar 01 16:56
DaemonFCMinceR, as in "Every player manufacturer has to license EVERY one of our patents even if no discs ever actually use that codec"Mar 01 16:57
DaemonFCmore money for the cartelMar 01 16:57
MinceR:>Mar 01 16:57
DaemonFCfailure to license the patent means you can't be Blu Ray player certifiedMar 01 16:58
DaemonFCwhich means you can't sell your player as a Blu Ray playerMar 01 16:58
DaemonFCnice coincidence huh?Mar 01 16:58
MinceRnot a coincidenceMar 01 16:58
DaemonFCsure it is! They meant to use that codec!Mar 01 16:58
Diablo-D3uhMar 01 16:58
DaemonFCnever got around to it thoughMar 01 16:58
Diablo-D3whatMar 01 16:58
DaemonFCit was all in good faith :)Mar 01 16:58
MinceRlolMar 01 16:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @schestowitz: #Intel Unhappy With Failed Migration to #Vista7 , Radical #Microsoft Spin Begins http://ur1.ca/o06lMar 01 16:59
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Intel Unhappy With Failed Migration to Vista 7, Radical Microsoft Spin Begins | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 86.81 KBMar 01 16:59
MinceRgood faith is unheard of ever since dvdMar 01 16:59
DaemonFCit matters not the lie you tell, but the money you have to make it the truth in courtMar 01 16:59
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 16:59
MinceR(i'd say the suckage of CDs is because of incompetence, not malice)Mar 01 16:59
DaemonFCMinceR, I have $50 billion dollars and I say purple apes from the planet Krypton swooped down from the sky and killed that hookerMar 01 17:00
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 17:00
MinceRthen the court will probably believe youMar 01 17:01
DaemonFCexactlyMar 01 17:01
DaemonFCMinceR, They have $1 Trillion or more in MPEG royalties and they say it was all a misunderstanding.Mar 01 17:04
DaemonFCthen their lawyers go play golf with the judgeMar 01 17:04
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 17:04
MinceRthe "american dream"Mar 01 17:04
DaemonFCnothing wrong with golfMar 01 17:05
DaemonFC:PMar 01 17:05
DaemonFCI play golf sometimesMar 01 17:05
DaemonFCI suck at it, but it's relaxingMar 01 17:05
DaemonFCI bowl wellMar 01 17:06
MinceRi wasn't referring specifically to golfMar 01 17:06
MinceRbut to the modus operandi in generalMar 01 17:06
DaemonFCahhh, the sleazy businessmen don't use public golf coursesMar 01 17:06
DaemonFCthey have their own country clubs :PMar 01 17:06
*vermilionnnn (~stephen@cpc3-linl7-0-0-cust201.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 17:08
DaemonFCprobably too worried about members of the general public beating them to death with a 6 iron if you ask me, MinceR Mar 01 17:08
DaemonFCnah, they're just too disgusted to be around "commoners"Mar 01 17:08
DaemonFC"peasants"Mar 01 17:08
DaemonFCthe "cattle"Mar 01 17:08
MinceR:>Mar 01 17:09
*amarsh04 just posted http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2010-02-28-005-35-OS-SW-RL-0000 after seeing an article on linux file recovery not mention ext3grepMar 01 17:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Linux Today - 5 of the Best Free Linux Data Recovery Tools .::. Size~: 71.6 KBMar 01 17:09
DaemonFCMinceR, remember that movie Blade?Mar 01 17:11
MinceRi doMar 01 17:12
DaemonFC"Why are we hiding from them, they're our fucking FOOD!!!" -FrostMar 01 17:12
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 17:12
MinceR:>Mar 01 17:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patent trolls have got guns, based on this latest shocking story http://ur1.ca/o096 #swpat #arrest #weapons #us #trolltrackerMar 01 17:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Patent Trolls Got Guns! | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 80.79 KBMar 01 17:12
vermilionnnnniceMar 01 17:12
DaemonFCmakes me think of businessmenMar 01 17:12
DaemonFCand how they see usMar 01 17:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Noah Webster was a crack-head. #englishMar 01 17:14
DaemonFCPython for Dummies is not well ratedMar 01 17:16
DaemonFCI should probably find a different bookMar 01 17:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] I love #OSX & all, but wish disk use wouldn't slowly creep up on this #g5. Makes it harder to maintain those multi-year uptimes #apple #macMar 01 17:18
DaemonFCtheir file system is horrible and overgrownMar 01 17:20
DaemonFClike most Crapple things...Mar 01 17:21
MinceRand their GUIMar 01 17:21
DaemonFCTheir GUI isn't badMar 01 17:21
MinceRit isMar 01 17:21
DaemonFCin fact that might be the closest thing they have to "works well"Mar 01 17:22
MinceRit's stupid, inflexible and it follows a vile set of guidelinesMar 01 17:22
MinceRincluding ordering dialog buttons in the worst way imaginableMar 01 17:22
DaemonFCnothing wrong with consistencyMar 01 17:22
MinceRthere's a lot wrong with consistency if it's consistently badMar 01 17:22
DaemonFCWindows doesn't enforce a HIG, it itself behaves inconsistentlyMar 01 17:22
DaemonFClack of a HIG gets you the Windows GUIMar 01 17:22
MinceRat least winblows gets button ordering rightMar 01 17:23
MinceRit also puts menu bars in the right place (and can be made to use sloppy focus with tweaking, iirc)Mar 01 17:23
DaemonFCGNOME's HIG may be just so-so in areas, but at least the system is consistentMar 01 17:23
MinceRalso, the winblows GUI isn't burdened by the remnants of a pathetic attempt at multitasking that they did in macosMar 01 17:23
DaemonFCHIG controls things like "Preferences should be under Edit"Mar 01 17:24
MinceRgnome's HIG is a copy of crApple's HIG, and it's therefore just as crapMar 01 17:24
DaemonFCevery program you open in Windows has a different way to get to the preferencesMar 01 17:24
MinceRHIG controls a lot more than thatMar 01 17:24
DaemonFCit's stupid and annoyingMar 01 17:24
DaemonFCthat's just an exampleMar 01 17:24
MinceRi mind that a lot less than having to read every single button to find out which one lets me save and quitMar 01 17:24
DaemonFCprograms should all act the same to an extentMar 01 17:24
cubezzzprogram your own :)Mar 01 17:24
MinceRor to quit without saving, etc.Mar 01 17:24
cubezzzthen you will be happyMar 01 17:24
DaemonFCyes, GNOME's HIG can be enforced by Nazis who actually make their program harder to useMar 01 17:25
DaemonFCXchat-GNOME is a good exampleMar 01 17:26
MinceRenforcing a HIG would not be a problem if the HIG wasn't a bunch of garbage in the first placeMar 01 17:26
DaemonFCthat does nothing except remove optionsMar 01 17:26
DaemonFCXChat itself is already GTK+Mar 01 17:26
MinceRand sometimes ignoring conventions can result in a GUI that fits the task betterMar 01 17:26
cubezzzsurely you could get  used to anything over timeMar 01 17:28
cubezzzthen that becomes "normal"Mar 01 17:28
MinceRdoesn't mean you can't find improvementsMar 01 17:28
vermilionnnnindeedMar 01 17:29
cubezzze.g. I'm pretty used to kde 3.4.2 :)Mar 01 17:29
MinceRi've used click-to-focus for a _long_ time before trying sloppy focus and switchingMar 01 17:29
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cubezzzyou can always do more at the command line anywayMar 01 17:30
MinceRdepends on the taskMar 01 17:30
cubezzzgrunt N point just isn't the only way to do stuffMar 01 17:31
MinceRfor example, drawing a freehand line on a bitmap would be kind of painful on the command line ;)Mar 01 17:31
MinceRor following a link among many in a hypertext documentMar 01 17:31
cubezzzthe first one, but not the second oneMar 01 17:32
MinceRnot to mention playing an FPS ;)Mar 01 17:32
cubezzzthere's lynx after allMar 01 17:32
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MinceRyes and navigating through hyperlinks using arrow keys is slowMar 01 17:32
cubezzzand I use lynx more and moreMar 01 17:32
MinceRtyping hotkeys or numbers is a bit betterMar 01 17:32
cubezzzpage up/ page downMar 01 17:32
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MinceRthat won't help if a long list/table of links is visible on the screenMar 01 17:33
cubezzzncurses programs for exampleMar 01 17:33
MinceRdrag-and-drop can be useful tooMar 01 17:33
*DaemonFC has quit (Client Quit)Mar 01 17:33
MinceR(mainly for copying information/objects between applications)Mar 01 17:33
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MinceRfor example, i can open a picture for editing in gimp even if there's no other way to refer to itMar 01 17:34
cubezzzhow about rm *.jpg :)Mar 01 17:34
MinceRby dragging it onto the main windowMar 01 17:34
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cubezzzcomcast must really suck :)Mar 01 17:34
MinceRyes, there are tasks that are better accomplished on the command lineMar 01 17:34
cubezzzyeahMar 01 17:34
cubezzzsoon we'll have NLP :)Mar 01 17:36
vermilionnnnNLP?Mar 01 17:36
cubezzzNatural Language ProcessingMar 01 17:36
cubezzzhence the smilieMar 01 17:36
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MinceRas in voice recognition and sentence parsing?Mar 01 17:36
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MinceRi think that's overratedMar 01 17:36
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DaemonFCok, how much sense does this make? Xchat GNOME can use the indicator crapplet, but closing it won't minimize it to thereMar 01 17:37
MinceRi'm not sure what the indicator applet is aboutMar 01 17:38
MinceRall the functionality i could get out of it is to show a different icon if there's new mail in EvolutionMar 01 17:38
MinceR(but that's an important bit of functionality)Mar 01 17:38
DaemonFCgonna try againMar 01 17:38
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cubezzzhow about touch screen MinceR? Do you think that would improve things?Mar 01 17:38
MinceRdefinitelyMar 01 17:38
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MinceRat least for me, if i had a tablet pc with a real touchscreenMar 01 17:39
MinceR(that is, one that works with a stylus and detects its position even if it's only near the screen)Mar 01 17:39
MinceR(and pressure sensitive)Mar 01 17:39
DaemonFChmmMar 01 17:39
cubezzzdrawing pads exist, but I've never tried themMar 01 17:39
MinceRafaik the thinkpad x-series tablets can do thatMar 01 17:40
MinceRbut they're kind of outside the ranges i wantedMar 01 17:40
MinceRthat is, too weak for gaming/video/high-powered laptopMar 01 17:40
MinceRand too heavy and too short battery life for "netbook"Mar 01 17:40
DaemonFCfuck this shitMar 01 17:40
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cubezzzwhat's wrong this time? :)Mar 01 17:40
MinceRactually i don't think he's having connectivity problems -- the Client Quit message seems to indicate that the client is being started and shut downMar 01 17:42
MinceRperhaps along with the OSMar 01 17:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @zoobab: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? http://i5.be/aydMar 01 17:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ♺ @zoobab: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? http://i5.be/aydMar 01 17:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 65.52 KBMar 01 17:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Is H.264 a legal minefield for video pros? | Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 62.28 KBMar 01 17:42
MinceRmaybe he's trying to get x-chat to work with the panel in the way he wants :)Mar 01 17:42
cubezzzI tried drawing on the zaurus but I didn't like the resultMar 01 17:43
MinceRi did draw on my palm tungsten e2 as part of taking notes and it workedMar 01 17:44
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MinceRthough the note taking app i used the most was limited to low resolution (160x160)Mar 01 17:44
MinceRbut i have not really learned how to draw so farMar 01 17:45
MinceRi'm planning to :)Mar 01 17:45
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DaemonFCthat's betterMar 01 17:46
MinceRwhat is?Mar 01 17:46
DaemonFCflushed XChat GNOMEMar 01 17:46
cubezzzhe's switched to Folgers crystals :)Mar 01 17:47
cubezzzwell, time to go to workMar 01 17:48
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jonoDaemonFC, so did you join the session?Mar 01 17:50
DaemonFCfor a whileMar 01 17:51
DaemonFCno offense, but I got the idea that it was going to be about things that are exclusive to Ubuntu, that you can only use in Ubuntu, and that knowledge doesn't help you anywhere elseMar 01 17:52
DaemonFCit seemed more like "Here's how you package for Ubuntu using weird things that only exist in Ubuntu and not even Debian has them"Mar 01 17:53
DaemonFCand some of those things looked really great and thought out, but you only have them in UbuntuMar 01 17:53
DaemonFCso what happens if someone wants to make packages for five or six distributions, some don't even have APT, some are RPM, and none of them have these tools to package or publish with?Mar 01 17:54
vermilionnnnlet the respective distro devs handle that?Mar 01 17:55
DaemonFCvermilionnnn, That's great if they'll do itMar 01 17:55
MinceRamong other things, it depends on what your software isMar 01 17:56
DaemonFCThe reason so many PPAs exist highlights a flaw in getting Ubuntu's packagers to listen or agree with good ideasMar 01 17:56
MinceRis it a library, how many dependencies does it have, do you want to distribute the source code, etc.Mar 01 17:56
DaemonFCas evidenced by all the people using all these PPAsMar 01 17:56
MinceRi think package managers should support third-party repos anywayMar 01 17:56
DaemonFCPPAs are only a good thing insofar as they're a way to bypass a bad processMar 01 17:56
MinceRone can't really demand that all distros package every single software package out thereMar 01 17:57
DaemonFCno, but some do spring out of a stubborn refusal by that distro to fix bugs that annoy the hell out of peopleMar 01 17:57
vermilionnnnhmm...points takenMar 01 17:57
DaemonFCjono, You guys should really fix the "Nobody's Home!" problem, as well as make it clear who to speak with and how about a given problemMar 01 17:59
DaemonFCTossing a suggestion into the wind and hoping that it lands on the right person is where you're at with Brainstorm I fearMar 01 18:00
DaemonFCspeaking with a maintainer directly via e-mail would give me my "That's a great idea!" or my "You're a big stupid doo doo head! Go Away!" much quickerMar 01 18:01
*bruce89 (~bruce89@78.33.73.43) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 18:01
bruce89I completely forgot about that iPod/iPhone stuff being done in GVFSMar 01 18:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz Yep, put my hat on it! Definately Mono dependant.....I just wish I hadn't immediatelly removed it.Mar 01 18:02
jonoDaemonFC, yeah, this is something we are keen to improveMar 01 18:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz You can quote me (and blame me if I'm wrong)...10.04 - Has one Mono dependent gameMar 01 18:03
DaemonFCalso, it's kind of odd to me that they can tell me "No, we're past featurefreeze, go away!" and then someone else submits a new version of Rhythmbox with some big changes (including ENTIRELY NEW and UNTESTED ReplayGain code)Mar 01 18:03
DaemonFCbecause new untested code can't cause regressions :)Mar 01 18:03
DaemonFCeverMar 01 18:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #InternetExplorer 6 is Dead But Its Damage to the Internet Persists http://ur1.ca/o0fl #ie6 #standards #microsoftMar 01 18:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Internet Explorer 6 is Dead But Its Damage to the Internet Persists | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 84.73 KBMar 01 18:04
DaemonFCand that lands todayMar 01 18:04
DaemonFCjono, I think you guys are more useful in making it known who the Debian maintainer is than your own maintainer in many casesMar 01 18:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz I think the damage Microsoft always lasts long after their packages are pulled.Mar 01 18:05
DaemonFCthat should end, and it should always be a clear who to e-mail about a packageMar 01 18:05
DaemonFCIt's not good to fire an email off into "the collective" and hope it gets disseminated to the correct drone :)Mar 01 18:06
DaemonFCwell, it might be if that collective is efficient and it will get to the responsible partyMar 01 18:07
*amarsh04 likes the reportbug program in DebianMar 01 18:09
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DaemonFCschestowitz, IE 6 is much beloved, didn't you know?Mar 01 18:11
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 18:11
DaemonFCschestowitz, Also, you probably could recommend ChromiumMar 01 18:12
DaemonFCdoes it have all the spyware of Chrome?Mar 01 18:12
*DaemonFC doesn't think so but isn't 100% on thatMar 01 18:12
ender2070there is no spywareMar 01 18:13
DaemonFCender2070, I know of several bits of spyware in ChromeMar 01 18:13
DaemonFCbut I wouldn't see the incentive for Chromium to duplicate themMar 01 18:14
ender2070in chromiumMar 01 18:14
DaemonFCwell as long as it's not spying on users, then I could recommend itMar 01 18:14
DaemonFCChrome is just scary in the detail of information it sends in on youMar 01 18:15
ender2070a lot of that is FUDMar 01 18:16
DaemonFCGUIDs and such mainlyMar 01 18:16
DaemonFCI don't like things that do thatMar 01 18:16
ender2070anything that firefox doesn't do?Mar 01 18:16
ender2070:)Mar 01 18:16
ender2070I know ubuntu's firefox has a degree of spying in itMar 01 18:17
DaemonFChttp://www.srware.net/en/software_srware_iron_chrome_vs_iron.phpMar 01 18:17
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SRWare Iron - The Browser of the Future .::. Size~: 21.65 KBMar 01 18:17
DaemonFCthere's a list thereMar 01 18:17
ender2070not all of that is badMar 01 18:18
DaemonFCthe GUID is probably the worst Mar 01 18:18
ender2070such as the error reportingMar 01 18:19
DaemonFCthe rest is mostly benign considering that your ISP probably error hijacks you anywayMar 01 18:19
ender2070yeahMar 01 18:19
ender2070the suggestion feature is also grey areaMar 01 18:19
DaemonFCI'd rather get sent to google search than Comcast branded Yahoo full of adsMar 01 18:19
cubezzzit doesn't actuallyMar 01 18:20
cubezzzmy ISPMar 01 18:20
ender2070mine doesMar 01 18:20
ender2070both bell & rogers do itMar 01 18:20
DaemonFCso your ISP hijacking takes priority over the error search in Chrome?Mar 01 18:20
cubezzzwell I'm on Toronto FreenetMar 01 18:20
ender2070cubezzz - its a shame none of the hotspots I get to use has itMar 01 18:21
cubezzzyou mean stuff like 404?Mar 01 18:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu adds #Mupen64 and #gbrainy , which is another #Mono application (for games) that’s installed by default http://ur1.ca/o0hlMar 01 18:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ubuntu 10.04 Increases Mono Dependency | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 119.82 KBMar 01 18:21
DaemonFCyesMar 01 18:21
cubezzzhttp://maxhost.org/fart.txtMar 01 18:21
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 18:21
cubezzzok, try it :)Mar 01 18:21
DaemonFChah!!!Mar 01 18:21
DaemonFCschestowitz, I love that pictureMar 01 18:21
DaemonFCWhere did you get it?Mar 01 18:21
cubezzzender2070, I'll ask the toronto freenet guys about thatMar 01 18:22
DaemonFCjono, http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mono-the-trojan.pngMar 01 18:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 18:22
DaemonFCschestowitz made you a pretty piece of art :)Mar 01 18:22
MinceRcubezzz: still 404Mar 01 18:22
jonoDaemonFC, trollingMar 01 18:22
jonoyou know my view on trolling...Mar 01 18:22
DaemonFCit's not trolling, it's amusingMar 01 18:23
MinceRindeedMar 01 18:23
DaemonFCactually, I ripped Mono out as nothing important uses it anywayMar 01 18:24
jonowell, I think its a bit lameMar 01 18:24
jonolike how people put a dollar sign in Micro$oftMar 01 18:24
jono:)Mar 01 18:24
DaemonFCschestowitz, Mupen64Plus does not depend on monoMar 01 18:24
MinceRthat isn't nearly as lame as people who put mono in the default install of their OS-es, jono Mar 01 18:24
jonoMinceR, then use another OSMar 01 18:25
jonoproblem solved :)Mar 01 18:25
MinceRor people who put bingo as the default search engine in the default browser in their GNU/Linux distroMar 01 18:25
jonothere is plenty of choice :)Mar 01 18:25
MinceRjono: i suppose that's what many people will do, yesMar 01 18:25
jonoMinceR, lol, bingoMar 01 18:25
jonoMinceR, possiblyMar 01 18:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz NO! - Not Mupen64! That was my doing......Mar 01 18:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz Mupen64 is a title I had installed on a secondary rig, I never noticed it had a Mono dependency until yesterday...Mar 01 18:26
*_Goblin (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 18:27
DaemonFChttp://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9234/screenshot2nw.pngMar 01 18:27
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 18:27
DaemonFC_Goblin, Quit spreading FUD pleaseMar 01 18:28
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:28
_Goblin?Mar 01 18:28
DaemonFCMupen64 does not have a single Mono dependencyMar 01 18:28
_Goblinyes it does.Mar 01 18:28
DaemonFCnoMar 01 18:28
_Goblinplease checkMar 01 18:28
DaemonFCit does notMar 01 18:28
_Goblinoh yes it doesMar 01 18:28
DaemonFCif it did it would want to install monoMar 01 18:28
_Goblinlet me inform you.Mar 01 18:28
DaemonFCright?Mar 01 18:28
_Goblinhang fire...Mar 01 18:28
DaemonFCno, look at that picture right thereMar 01 18:28
_Goblinand by the way...FUD?  You are the last one to talk about that.Mar 01 18:28
_Goblinstand by...Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFCryan@ryan-desktop:~$ sudo apt-get install mupen64plusMar 01 18:29
DaemonFCReading package lists... DoneMar 01 18:29
DaemonFCBuilding dependency tree       Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFCReading state information... DoneMar 01 18:29
DaemonFCThe following extra packages will be installed:Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFC  libxdg-basedir1Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFCThe following NEW packages will be installed:Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFC  libxdg-basedir1 mupen64plusMar 01 18:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week off to a rocking start with 252 attendees! :-) http://is.gd/9ssdK #ubuntu #opportunisticdevelopersMar 01 18:29
DaemonFC0 upgraded, 2 newly installed, 0 to remove and 4 not upgraded.Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFCNeed to get 1,445kB of archives.Mar 01 18:29
phIRCe-BNcTitle: UbuntuOpportunisticDeveloperWeek - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 14.34 KBMar 01 18:29
DaemonFCAfter this operation, 4,846kB of additional disk space will be used.Mar 01 18:29
DaemonFCDo you want to continue [Y/n]? Mar 01 18:29
bruce89nMar 01 18:29
DaemonFC_Goblin, If you were right, it would ask to install MonoMar 01 18:30
DaemonFCjono, Tell him how dependencies work :)Mar 01 18:30
DaemonFCheheMar 01 18:30
jono:)Mar 01 18:30
_GoblindaemonFC...Mar 01 18:31
_GoblinIm looking at an Ubuntu install now with Mupen on it.Mar 01 18:31
_Goblinand monoMar 01 18:31
DaemonFCjono, Am I right that programs that need dependencies ask to install those dependencies because they don't work without the dependency and that's why it's a dependency?Mar 01 18:31
_Goblinzip it and let me finishMar 01 18:31
DaemonFCIf I'm too far off, correct meMar 01 18:31
_GoblinI am trying to remove mono through synaptic.Mar 01 18:32
jonoDaemonFC, it will ask to install them if not presentMar 01 18:32
DaemonFC_Goblin, sudo apt-get purge mono-runtimeMar 01 18:32
_Goblinand its showing me the list of affected software.Mar 01 18:32
_Goblinzip it and let me finishMar 01 18:32
DaemonFCthat'll take out everything but libgdiplusMar 01 18:32
DaemonFC_Goblin, sudo apt-get purge libgdiplusMar 01 18:32
DaemonFCmono is now goneMar 01 18:32
_Goblinzip it and let me finishMar 01 18:32
bruce89use aptitudeMar 01 18:32
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_GoblinI am using Mupen64plus...could that be the difference?Mar 01 18:33
sebsebsebABCMar 01 18:33
DaemonFC_Goblin, I trust that you'll correct yourself when you find that it doesn't use MonoMar 01 18:33
DaemonFCbut yes, I'll be quiet now and let you press buttonsMar 01 18:33
_Goblinand daemonfc you never considered what GUI this Ubuntu rig is using for Emu.Mar 01 18:33
_Goblin" I trust that you'll correct yourself when you find  that it doesn't use MonoMar 01 18:33
_Goblinno, I may just do what you do and be insulting.Mar 01 18:34
DaemonFCno, if you want to state that it uses Mono, be sure that it does firstMar 01 18:34
*MinceR wonders what the hell is up with libgdiplus not depending on mono formallyMar 01 18:34
DaemonFCbecause when it doesn't, you are an assMar 01 18:34
bruce89sebsebseb: you were right, it was GNOME that did the iPhod stuffMar 01 18:34
_Goblinlol.Mar 01 18:34
_GoblinDaemonFC: You are the last one to talk about being an ass when half the channel has you on ignore.Mar 01 18:34
_Goblindaemonfc: including myself for the later part of 2009.Mar 01 18:35
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, the idiot asshole, is free to /ignore whoever he likesMar 01 18:35
DaemonFChe can't hold an engaging conversation anywayMar 01 18:35
_Goblinagain...I am trying to remove Mono and it is insisting on Mupen having to go.Mar 01 18:35
_Goblinremoving mono only....Mar 01 18:35
_Goblin...waitingMar 01 18:36
DaemonFCworse than being combative and linguistically explicit, it being stupid as wellMar 01 18:36
DaemonFChe wraps all that up pretty nicelyMar 01 18:36
sebsebsebbruce89: well Ubuntu will get the credit, if it still works when 10.04 final comes outMar 01 18:36
_Goblindaemonfc: remember your rant about the developing world?Mar 01 18:36
_Goblindaemonfc: or what about your racism.Mar 01 18:36
_Goblindaemonfc: don't knock diablo-d3....he's a decent guy.Mar 01 18:36
MinceRhe isn't always decent, actuallyMar 01 18:37
_Goblincompared to DaemonFC he's the salt of the earthMar 01 18:37
_Goblinanyway...Mar 01 18:37
_Goblinnope....Mar 01 18:38
bruce89sebsebseb: my point exactlyMar 01 18:38
sebsebsebMinceR: yeah I have seen raceism from diablo-d3Mar 01 18:38
_GoblinMupen64 DOES NOT RUN after Mono is off this Ubutnu rig.Mar 01 18:38
_Goblinits not doing anything.Mar 01 18:38
bruce89for instance http://www.osnews.com/thread?411587Mar 01 18:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: OSNews > Thread > "Impressing" by kensai .::. Size~: 25.86 KBMar 01 18:38
MinceRperhaps you're looking at different ubuntu versions?Mar 01 18:38
DaemonFCMinceR, http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5024/goblinisfullofshit.pngMar 01 18:39
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/png type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 18:39
_Goblinim using 64plus which is what I tried to tell daemonFC.....Mar 01 18:39
sebsebsebbruce89: if Apple brake it after 10.04 releaseMar 01 18:39
DaemonFCas an objective witness, is that Mupen64 running WITHOUT Mono installed?Mar 01 18:39
_Goblinmaybe thats the difference and its a forked ver.Mar 01 18:39
sebsebsebbruce89: well at least then can give people links to the stuff about how it was workingMar 01 18:39
DaemonFC_Goblin, Mupen64Plus, see pictureMar 01 18:39
sebsebsebbruce89: and if they brake it quite a bit before, same thingMar 01 18:39
DaemonFCI proved that it is not Mono basedMar 01 18:39
sebsebsebgot links that can be given to peopleMar 01 18:39
sebsebsebit used to work...Mar 01 18:39
DaemonFCnow you have some retractions to doMar 01 18:40
DaemonFCdon't let me stop youMar 01 18:40
sebsebsebbruce89: Apple will probably mess the support upMar 01 18:40
_Goblindaemonfc: You don't need to prove anything.  I cannot get mupen64 to run without Mono...do you really think I would announce it on Twitter if I could?Mar 01 18:40
bruce89you never knowMar 01 18:40
DaemonFCyou're an assMar 01 18:40
DaemonFCand I've proved you are wrongMar 01 18:40
DaemonFCnow you're only more insistentMar 01 18:40
_Goblindaemonfc: no you havent.Mar 01 18:40
DaemonFC100% pure wrongMar 01 18:40
_Goblindaemonfc: ok daemonfc.Mar 01 18:40
_GoblinokMar 01 18:40
DaemonFCMupen64Plus has not ONE Mono dependency, nt 1! Why don't you go asking a developer then before you go spouting bullshit?Mar 01 18:41
bruce89http://git.gnome.org/browse/gvfs/commit/?id=b6fda31fe81820259e432545b052980fa718d817Mar 01 18:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle: gvfs - Virtual filesystem implementation for gio .::. Size~: 121.12 KBMar 01 18:41
DaemonFCYou're so fucking full of shit right now it's running out your earsMar 01 18:41
DaemonFCGAH!Mar 01 18:41
_Goblinwho is being insistant now?Mar 01 18:42
DaemonFCjust admit you are wrong and go on with your lifeMar 01 18:42
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Has anyone ever ordered from Lujo Fashion? http://www.lujofashion.co.uk/ Very cheap - but trustable?Mar 01 18:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Lujo Fashion,Lingerie,Clubwear,Fancy Dress Costumes,Shoes & Boots .::. Size~: 63.26 KBMar 01 18:42
bruce89Patrick Walton <pcwalton@cs.ucla.edu> Martin Szulecki <opensuse@sukimashita.com> Nikias Bassen <nikias@gmx.li> Bastien Nocera <hadess@hadess.net>Mar 01 18:42
_GoblindaemonFC: if it was anyone else I'd take them seriously...with your past here, I don't need to say anything to you.Mar 01 18:42
DaemonFCyou're wrong, you are proven to be wrong, there is not one line of C# or other Mono in the sources evenMar 01 18:43
DaemonFCyou could not be more wrongMar 01 18:43
DaemonFCyou being more wrong would be impossibleMar 01 18:43
_Goblinwho is being insistant now?Mar 01 18:44
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:44
MinceRbefore you two start a war, perhaps it would be worth finding out if you're looking at the same version of the same distro and the same version of the same mupen64plus packageMar 01 18:45
_Goblintheres no war here....its only daemonfcMar 01 18:45
MinceRand whether the package manager's behavior is different when installing and uninstallingMar 01 18:45
MinceR(also, using the same package manager and the same method of determining whether mono and mupen64plus are installed)Mar 01 18:46
DaemonFCDaemonFCMar 01 18:46
DaemonFC  Mar 01 18:46
DaemonFC@schestowitz: http://bit.ly/arqTVV There are no Mono dependencies of Mupen64Plus, please examine the public C source if you like.Mar 01 18:46
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 18:46
_GoblinMincer if it had been anyone else on the "attack" I would have been interested/taken it seriously....remember this is the "person" who believes people in the 3rd world should be left to die....thats why Im not particularly bothered.Mar 01 18:46
_Goblinif its a mistake fine....I'll let someone else highlight it.Mar 01 18:47
MinceRwhether a package depends on a given platform is orthogonal to whether people in the 3rd world should be left to die :>Mar 01 18:47
DaemonFCyeah, shit all over the place til it looks like a colostomy explosionMar 01 18:47
DaemonFCthen leave it to others to clean upMar 01 18:47
DaemonFCthat's real niceMar 01 18:47
DaemonFCmature evenMar 01 18:47
_Goblinmincer: Im looking at this Mupen deployment and Im thinking that the GUI which handles the emu is mono dependant.....Mar 01 18:48
DaemonFCresponsibleMar 01 18:48
DaemonFCit's notMar 01 18:48
DaemonFCno package in Mupen64Plus has so much as one line of Mono language code, it is ENTIRELY 100% plain old Stallman-approved C near as I can tellMar 01 18:48
DaemonFCand that's even looking at the source code, which I doubt you examinedMar 01 18:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] RT @ryan Um, wow. PS3 situation is ugly. Sony advises not to turn on your PS3 until they gets a fix out http://gdg.to/a6grvw -- OUTDOES 360!Mar 01 18:49
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Sony PlayStation 3 (PS3): 8001050F signed out of PSN - gdgt .::. Size~: 59.37 KBMar 01 18:49
DaemonFCyou're wrong and you're FUD-ing a perfectly honest, clean, bona fide FOSS project which has done now wrongdoingsMar 01 18:49
MinceRi don't think they outdid the suXbox 360Mar 01 18:49
_Goblindaemonfc: Leave it now, people can decide for themselves....Mar 01 18:49
MinceRat least in the case of ps3-s the hardware didn't fry :>Mar 01 18:49
_Goblindaemonfc: I havent deleted anything, so they can correct me.Mar 01 18:50
DaemonFCmaybe you can like, edit it yourself with a noteMar 01 18:50
_Goblinin twitter....? yeah......?Mar 01 18:50
DaemonFCthat would be the nice responsible grown-up, not-a-shithead thing to doMar 01 18:50
_Goblingrown up?Mar 01 18:50
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:50
_Goblinyou dare to say that with your gun tirades here?Mar 01 18:51
DaemonFChow about a tweet that says "sorry for saying that about Mupen64Plus, turns out I was wrong. sorryMar 01 18:51
_Goblintalking like robocop or John Wayne?Mar 01 18:51
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:51
MinceRo_OMar 01 18:51
_Goblingunboy, take your expertise elsewhere.  I'll stand corrected by anyone else but you.Mar 01 18:51
_Goblinmaybe Jono can come forward and settle this?Mar 01 18:52
jono_Goblin, sorry on the phone right nowMar 01 18:53
MinceRwanting to have the right to keep and bear arms makes one's expertise irrelevant now? :>Mar 01 18:53
_Goblinjono...mupen64plus....does it have any mono deps in Ubuntu 9.10?Mar 01 18:53
DaemonFCgbrainy is the only new program in Ubuntu that requires MonoMar 01 18:54
sebsebsebDaemonFC: gbrainy is in the 9.10 repo as well, if I remmber correctlyMar 01 18:55
DaemonFCMupen64Plus is standard C and I don't know where you decided to FUD it considering that the public source alone proves you wrongMar 01 18:55
DaemonFCthe fact that it runs with no Mono cements thatMar 01 18:55
_GoblinMincer: it was more at the level in which he's at.  Ive only just unignored him...You see normal people would have spoken properly...Daemonfc can't so he enters the attack straight away.Mar 01 18:55
MinceRicMar 01 18:55
DaemonFCMinceR, When people won't admit they're wrong despite all the evidence saying so, they're an egotistical moronMar 01 18:56
DaemonFClike _Goblin Mar 01 18:56
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:56
_GoblinI say I will stand corrected by anyone else and ask another...and you say egotistical?Mar 01 18:56
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:56
DaemonFCthe egomaniac will never be satisfied unless they're right, they even bend the laws of the universe in their own mind to make themselves rightMar 01 18:57
_Goblinreally?Mar 01 18:57
DaemonFCyeah, you're doing thatMar 01 18:57
_Goblinso why I am asking for someone else to confirm or deny?Mar 01 18:57
_Goblinwhy am I waiting for Jono?Mar 01 18:57
DaemonFCeven though you're obviously lying in saying that removing Mono would remove something that doesn't need itMar 01 18:57
_Goblinah ok....Mar 01 18:57
_Goblinof course daemonfcMar 01 18:57
jono_Goblin, I am on the phone, like I saidMar 01 18:58
_Goblinthats fine...I'll wait....Mar 01 18:58
DaemonFCjono, tell idiot here he's wrong so he'll tuck his tail between his legs and go lay in the cornerMar 01 18:58
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 18:58
DaemonFCplease?Mar 01 18:58
_GoblinDaemonfc seems to be getting rather excited that theres a chance he's right about something once...Mar 01 18:58
MinceRfwiw, on the two Kubuntu Karmic Koala installs i can access, marking mupen64plus for installation in Synaptic doesn't bring in mono (mono-runtime and libgdiplus aren't installed)Mar 01 18:58
DaemonFCthank you MinceR Mar 01 18:58
_GoblinMincer: Fair point....retraction will be issued..Mar 01 18:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft leaves customers and their financial data stranded while #Windows botnets cause large damage http://ur1.ca/o0lyMar 01 18:59
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Microsoft Bailout for Microsoft Money and Trillions in Damages | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 81.63 KBMar 01 18:59
DaemonFCI don't even give a shit about that package, it bothers me that honest hard working people are being befudded by such a trollMar 01 18:59
_GoblinlolMar 01 18:59
MinceRanother test one could do (but i'm not going to) would be installing both mono and mupen64plus and then marking mono for removal and checking what happensMar 01 18:59
_GoblinMincer: I'll issue a comment on Twitter.Mar 01 19:00
DaemonFCwell, there are no dependencies either way or Mono would require Mupen64Plus to begin withMar 01 19:00
DaemonFCand since Mupen64Plus doesn't bring in Mono, Mono does not depend on itMar 01 19:00
DaemonFCso therefore _Goblin can't be right unless there's some kind of voodoo spell involvedMar 01 19:00
MinceRDaemonFC: you're assuming there are no bugs in the package manager ;)Mar 01 19:01
MinceRor the packages themselvesMar 01 19:01
DaemonFCthat mark dependencies that don't exist?Mar 01 19:01
DaemonFCthe dependency is tagged in the packageMar 01 19:01
DaemonFCit's either set or unsetMar 01 19:01
DaemonFCI don't believe that a "half-dependency" can even happenMar 01 19:01
MinceRactually it could happen in any of the set of packages that would be installed because they're dependenciesMar 01 19:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Thanks to Mincer on BN, I stand corrected. MUPEN64 DOES NOT HAVE A MONO DEPENDENCY....so its all good..... #emu #mupen64 #linuxMar 01 19:02
MinceRalso, some of the apt-based package managers install suggested packages as if they were dependencies by default, iircMar 01 19:02
schestowitz[18:47] <_Goblin> mincer: Im looking at this Mupen deployment and Im thinking that the GUI which handles the emu is mono dependant.....Mar 01 19:02
MinceR(but i don't quite see how the mono runtime would be suggested -- perhaps it could be depended on a package suggested somewhere)Mar 01 19:02
schestowitzI think it isMar 01 19:03
DaemonFCsuggestions don't affect what gets uninstalled laterMar 01 19:03
DaemonFCEVERMar 01 19:03
MinceRi'm not sure what package the gui is inMar 01 19:03
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/01/ubuntu-mono-games-and-gbrainy/#comment-84209Mar 01 19:03
schestowitzSee the part about c# front endMar 01 19:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ubuntu 10.04 Increases Mono Dependency | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 123.29 KBMar 01 19:03
*FurnaceBoy (~FurnaceBo@bas1-toronto10-1279556079.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 19:03
DaemonFCschestowitz, Then the frontend is in a different packageMar 01 19:04
_Goblinschestowitz: I did try to say, but we are talking Daemonfc here.Mar 01 19:04
DaemonFCso what's the deal?Mar 01 19:04
DaemonFCthe non-mono frontend is the default clearlyMar 01 19:04
schestowitzHopefullyMar 01 19:04
MinceRwhat are the frontend packages?Mar 01 19:04
schestowitzThat's what we don't know yetMar 01 19:04
schestowitzI didn't know it had several, like ZeiteistMar 01 19:04
DaemonFCMinceR, The integrated one is C and GTK+Mar 01 19:04
FurnaceBoyhm, surveillance abuses. who knew? http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/02/pentagon-discloses-hundreds-reports-possiblyMar 01 19:04
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Pentagon Discloses Hundreds of Reports of Possibly Illegal Intelligence Activities | Electronic Frontier Foundation .::. Size~: 21.3 KBMar 01 19:04
DaemonFCohhh, scaryMar 01 19:04
_Goblinschestowitz: Ive corrected the Twitter, although I need to make it clear its the frontend.Mar 01 19:04
schestowitzRenamed to Activity  soemthingMar 01 19:05
DaemonFC_Goblin, Not the default frontend eitherMar 01 19:05
DaemonFCyou have to oerride the default frontend and separately install the C# oneMar 01 19:05
_Goblindaemonfc: just leave it now....I never said it was....Mar 01 19:05
DaemonFCwho is going to do that?Mar 01 19:05
DaemonFChonestlyMar 01 19:05
MinceRthey could make a non-default, mono-dependent frontend part of the set of default installed packages, thoughMar 01 19:05
DaemonFCMinceR, They haven'tMar 01 19:05
MinceRor they could even make it a dependency of ubuntu-desktopMar 01 19:05
DaemonFCyou're judging them for something they haven't done and probably never will doMar 01 19:06
MinceR(up until Karmic, ubuntu-desktop doesn't seem to depend on mono in any way)Mar 01 19:06
DaemonFCit could be someone's side project and not even endorsed by the official projectMar 01 19:06
DaemonFCso why rush to judgment?Mar 01 19:06
MinceRDaemonFC: i'm seeing very vehement assertions from two people that contradict each other :)Mar 01 19:06
_Goblingood god, just leave it Daemonfc.....Mar 01 19:06
DaemonFCThat would be like if I wrote a C# version of XChat and _Goblin goes off befudding XChat for itMar 01 19:07
MinceRnot exactlyMar 01 19:07
bruce89damned filtersMar 01 19:07
_GoblinMincer: its really not an issue....its only Daemonfc who is going on.Mar 01 19:07
MinceRthe context in at least some of the messages here was ubuntu 10.04Mar 01 19:07
MinceRso how they package it also mattersMar 01 19:08
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] who knew surveillance cd be abused? #fbi #cia #nsa #eff http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/02/pentagon-discloses-hundreds-reports-possiblyMar 01 19:08
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Pentagon Discloses Hundreds of Reports of Possibly Illegal Intelligence Activities | Electronic Frontier Foundation .::. Size~: 21.3 KBMar 01 19:08
DaemonFCBanshee is a C# frontend to a gstreamer backend, ZOMG Gstreamer is the evilness!!!111Mar 01 19:09
DaemonFCnot like you can use other players as frontends to GstreamerMar 01 19:09
DaemonFCit needs Banshee to workMar 01 19:09
sebsebsebbruce89: heh your on here and me http://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/01/ubuntu-mono-games-and-gbrainy/Mar 01 19:09
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ubuntu 10.04 Increases Mono Dependency | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 123.29 KBMar 01 19:09
DaemonFCyou see how ridiculous that looks?Mar 01 19:10
DaemonFCCompletely unfounded, not based in reality at allMar 01 19:10
sebsebsebschestowitz: is that the first time you put in a load of stuff from IRC into a blog entry?Mar 01 19:10
DaemonFCbefudding good people working on GstreamerMar 01 19:10
_GoblinMupen64 and 10.04 were not connected in my conversations anyway...Mar 01 19:10
sebsebsebianto:  see above link :)Mar 01 19:11
_Goblinit just happened I had two rigs with one running 10.04 and the other Mupen on 9.10Mar 01 19:11
sebsebsebWhat is this Mupen thing anyway?Mar 01 19:11
DaemonFC_Goblin, If you want to say that a separate non-default optional frontend that the main program doesn't depend on or bring in is C#, that's correctMar 01 19:11
_Goblinn64 emuMar 01 19:11
MinceRi wonder if gnome shell will work in kde4Mar 01 19:12
sebsebseb_Goblin: Nintendo 64 emulater? and it's in the default install?Mar 01 19:12
_GoblinnoMar 01 19:12
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Yeah, you still need firmware I'm sureMar 01 19:12
DaemonFCthat's how Project64 works iircMar 01 19:12
_GoblinIt was just I happened to be talking about the subjects at the same time.Mar 01 19:12
DaemonFCoh, not the default, noMar 01 19:12
sebsebseb_Goblin: well let their be mono stff in the repo's, and then people can choose to use it or not.Mar 01 19:12
DaemonFCit's in the repoMar 01 19:12
MinceRi'm not sure what the point of putting a console emulator without firmware into the default install would beMar 01 19:13
_Goblinsebsebseb: theres much cleaned up in the default install...of 10.04Mar 01 19:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Application Indicator Session at Ubuntu Opportunistic Developer Week now! http://is.gd/9ssdK #ubuntu #gnomeMar 01 19:13
phIRCe-BNcTitle: UbuntuOpportunisticDeveloperWeek - Ubuntu Wiki .::. Size~: 14.57 KBMar 01 19:13
DaemonFCsebsebseb, It's legal to ship the emulator without the startup firmware, but people that use the emulator will need to do something illegal to make it workMar 01 19:13
DaemonFCthe firmware is pulled off an actual consoleMar 01 19:13
sebsebsebMinceR: well it's not in the default install, so all this Mupen stuff, seems a bit pointless to me, except for  more Mono hateMar 01 19:13
DaemonFCI guess the theory is that it may be legal "somewhere"Mar 01 19:13
_Goblinsebsebseb: I never said Mupen was part of the default....regardless of it was mono or not.Mar 01 19:14
sebsebsebcomplaining about something that has been added to the repo,  so what let people install it if they want to,  plus most users won't be installing itMar 01 19:14
_Goblinsebsebseb: and we were not complaining about it....Mar 01 19:14
sebsebseb_Goblin: well I haven't been following the Mupen stuff properlyMar 01 19:14
_Goblinsebsebseb: really?Mar 01 19:14
DaemonFCmost users don't even care about emulating a Nintendo64 or illegally obtaining startup firmware and ROM filesMar 01 19:14
_Goblinunlawfully.Mar 01 19:15
DaemonFCI think having it available is more than a little dodgy, but oh wellMar 01 19:15
_Goblinno statute in law for grabbing n64 firmware.Mar 01 19:15
DaemonFCyeah there isMar 01 19:15
_GoblinlolMar 01 19:15
_Goblinhere we go.Mar 01 19:15
MinceRsebsebseb: you say that as if "mono hate" was a bad thingMar 01 19:15
_GoblinWhere in UK law then?Mar 01 19:15
DaemonFCsame legal basis as taking an unlicensed MP3 fileMar 01 19:15
DaemonFCyou could be sued over itMar 01 19:15
_Goblinlol.Mar 01 19:15
sebsebsebMinceR: depends on how it is done and to whoMar 01 19:15
_Goblinsued? so its civil then?Mar 01 19:15
sebsebsebMinceR: you could actsaully put off people from using the whole of Desktop LinuxMar 01 19:15
_GoblinlolMar 01 19:16
sebsebsebMinceR: if you start saying it uses Mono which is based on  Microsoft's .NETMar 01 19:16
_Goblinnot criminal daemonfc there is a difference.Mar 01 19:16
MinceRsebsebseb: only if those people believe that desktop gnu/linux is unworkable without monoMar 01 19:16
DaemonFCit violates the law on copyright grounds, but yes, it would be a civil lawsuitMar 01 19:16
sebsebsebMinceR: it seems that most people that use Desktop Linux, use it mainly, because they don't like MicrosoftMar 01 19:16
_Goblinright...Mar 01 19:16
DaemonFCsame as downloading unlicensed MP3sMar 01 19:16
_Goblinso its not criminal its civil.Mar 01 19:16
_Goblinunlawful not illegal.Mar 01 19:16
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: I'm not sure that's a valid generalisation.Mar 01 19:17
MinceRsebsebseb: then they won't want to use mono.Mar 01 19:17
sebsebsebMinceR: then again we have Wine, and most users don't seem to have an issue with thatMar 01 19:17
DaemonFCyeah, if you're not selling it it's civilMar 01 19:17
_Goblinand what prey tell in damages could nintendo get from you for taking it from your console?Mar 01 19:17
DaemonFCif you sell it it's criminalMar 01 19:17
MinceRsebsebseb: the gnu/linux desktop doesn't depend on wine, and it's purely a compatibility measure.Mar 01 19:17
sebsebsebMinceR: altough  Wine isn't using code from Microsoft/Novell right?Mar 01 19:17
_Goblinwe are talking about grabbing it not selling ti.Mar 01 19:17
DaemonFC_Goblin, You can copy your own ROM files and firmware legallyMar 01 19:17
DaemonFCas long as you own the cartridges and the consoleMar 01 19:17
DaemonFCerrr "lawfully"Mar 01 19:18
DaemonFCyou know what I meanMar 01 19:18
MinceRsebsebseb: if someone would start building winblows apps into the gnome desktop or the ubuntu default install using wine, i'd take issue with it.Mar 01 19:18
_GoblinDaemonFC: where did I say different....?Mar 01 19:18
sebsebsebFurnaceBoy: yeah, and I am saying telling people that their is Mono which is based on Microsoft's .NET might put off some users, from using the whole of Desktop Linux, because they don't want to use Microsoft stuff, or anything like itMar 01 19:18
DaemonFCUS law would say that falls under your fair use rights as a backupMar 01 19:18
MinceRs/would start/started/Mar 01 19:18
DaemonFCso long as you don't have to reverse engineer any DRM to make it happenMar 01 19:18
sebsebsebMinceR: ah right yeahMar 01 19:18
_Goblinsebsebseb: its not a case of being "put off" by Mono.Mar 01 19:18
DaemonFCbut Nintendo 64 doesn't employ any real DRMMar 01 19:18
sebsebsebMinceR: the Mono stuff being bundled into Gnome or well distro's that use it, and by defaultMar 01 19:18
MinceRsebsebseb: wine allieviates users being held hostage by their winblows applications, but winblows .net applications rarely can run on monoMar 01 19:19
MinceRso it isn't even useful for thatMar 01 19:19
sebsebsebMinceR: that's true, most .NET apps won't even run with MonoMar 01 19:19
DaemonFCcopying an XBOX 360 game would be lawful, but getting past the DRM to load the thing would notMar 01 19:19
DaemonFCthat's an exampleMar 01 19:19
sebsebsebMinceR: yeah so Mono is used to make apps that are similar to .NETMar 01 19:20
bruce89errMar 01 19:20
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Mono is not directly compatible with .NetMar 01 19:20
MinceRmono apps also blend in with unencumbered apps -- that too makes them more dangerousMar 01 19:20
DaemonFCMonoDevelop has tools to help fix those issuesMar 01 19:20
MinceRDaemonFC: that's what we're saying tooMar 01 19:20
sebsebsebanyway gbrainyMar 01 19:21
sebsebseba game in the default installMar 01 19:21
sebsebsebof 10.04Mar 01 19:21
sebsebsebthat isn't a card game, or something like that, for a changeMar 01 19:21
sebsebsebthe default Gnome games suckMar 01 19:21
_Goblinwho plays them anyway...mono or not?Mar 01 19:21
MinceRso it's 'make a commitment to pay m$ patent fees and you get to play a non-card game'?Mar 01 19:22
sebsebsebalso gbrainy is probably the type of game that many people will want to play,  so the game itself is fine really,  it's just how it's been made isn'tMar 01 19:22
MinceRdoesn't sound enticing at allMar 01 19:22
MinceR(and i can imagine worse scenarios than merely being forced into paying fees to m$)Mar 01 19:22
DaemonFCGNOME games suckMar 01 19:22
sebsebsebDaemonFC: indeedMar 01 19:22
DaemonFCFedora ditched them to save room on their LiveCDMar 01 19:22
sebsebsebmost of the KDE games aren't much better, but there's Kapman or whatever which is goodMar 01 19:23
sebsebseblike PacmanMar 01 19:24
sebsebsebMinceR: most Desktop Linux users don't know about Mono.  and most users that do know about Mono, don't care enough, to not use apps that have been made in it, if they want to use those appsMar 01 19:25
DaemonFCI'm not saying I endorse Mono, I'm not encouraging people to use Mono. Lvying accusations that something needs Mono is like accusing your neighbors of being drug dealers.Mar 01 19:25
DaemonFCIt may be nice to be pretty sure before you say it.Mar 01 19:25
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: the problem with microsoft stuff isn't really 'taste', it's practicality and demonstrated dangersMar 01 19:25
sebsebsebFurnaceBoy: they use Microsoft stuff, becasue that's what they knowMar 01 19:26
sebsebsebdemonstrated dangers????Mar 01 19:26
sebsebsebsuch as?Mar 01 19:26
sebsebsebvender lock in?Mar 01 19:26
FurnaceBoyfor oneMar 01 19:27
sebsebseband software patents?  altough those aren't globalMar 01 19:27
FurnaceBoythose are biggiesMar 01 19:27
FurnaceBoythere's really no upsideMar 01 19:27
FurnaceBoynone at allMar 01 19:27
FurnaceBoywhich is logical when you step back and look at why microsoft exists in the first placeMar 01 19:28
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Software patents can restrict movement of software in countries that don't recognize themMar 01 19:29
sebsebsebFurnaceBoy: they exist to make moneyMar 01 19:29
sebsebsebDaemonFC: that's trueMar 01 19:29
sebsebsebsince open source is globalMar 01 19:29
sebsebsebfor exampleMar 01 19:29
DaemonFCa Fedora user in Europe is limited by the decisions Fedora has to make in the USMar 01 19:29
sebsebsebopensource/freesoftwareMar 01 19:29
DaemonFCUbuntu also bases what it ships with on countries like the USMar 01 19:29
MinceRand we're under the threat of ACTA nowMar 01 19:29
DaemonFCthat's why codecs and libdvdcss are missing on the installer CDMar 01 19:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: i don't think it's far off before we see arrests of violators on foreign soil, there is plenty of precedent for this (execs of foreign online gambling operators)Mar 01 19:30
sebsebsebDaemonFC: they are on the Mint CD, but Mint is also based on IrelandMar 01 19:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: and maybe dvdjon's case is illuminatingMar 01 19:30
DaemonFCFurnaceBoy, Wasn't DVD Jon arrested when he came to the US?Mar 01 19:30
sebsebsebin not on aboveMar 01 19:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the adobe pdf guyMar 01 19:30
DaemonFCohMar 01 19:30
sebsebsebDaemonFC: they have a version without the codecs though, and  it basically says if your a magazine in USA, use this versionMar 01 19:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: forget his name right now...Mar 01 19:30
bruce89IrelandOS, oh yes, I remember that oneMar 01 19:30
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: SklyarovMar 01 19:31
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: DmitryMar 01 19:31
sebsebsebDaemonFC: when I looked on websiteMar 01 19:31
sebsebsebbruce89: your famous nowMar 01 19:31
sebsebsebbruce89: did you go on the above link yet?Mar 01 19:31
DaemonFCsebsebseb, The Ubuntu CD is distributable in the US, that's why the codecs and libdvdcss are not on themMar 01 19:31
bruce89noMar 01 19:31
DaemonFCyou grab them after you install itMar 01 19:31
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 19:31
sebsebsebbruce89: well this link  http://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/01/ubuntu-mono-games-and-gbrainy/Mar 01 19:31
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Ubuntu 10.04 Increases Mono Dependency | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 123.29 KBMar 01 19:31
DaemonFCthere's nothing that violates US law on the Ubuntu CDMar 01 19:31
sebsebsebDaemonFC: Ubuntu is rather American reallyMar 01 19:31
sebsebsebDaemonFC: English US by defaults,  the lacking codecsMar 01 19:32
DaemonFCwell, you know Mint is the one with the "Universal" CD for magazinesMar 01 19:32
DaemonFCthe rest have the codecs and libdvdcssMar 01 19:32
sebsebsebDaemonFC: yes that's what I was on aboutMar 01 19:32
bruce89I'm sure I'll be mentioned elsewhereMar 01 19:32
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Me? Personally? I see nothing wrong with grabbing the nonfree stuff without paying license feesMar 01 19:32
DaemonFCI own the media they sold me that makes them necessaryMar 01 19:33
DaemonFCso I feel entitled to have the codecsMar 01 19:33
sebsebsebbruce89: were only mentioned though since schestowitz copied in a load from IRC into his blog entryMar 01 19:33
*jono has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Mar 01 19:33
MinceRdoes the WIPO Copyright Treaty allow libdvdcss to be distributed?Mar 01 19:33
DaemonFCsebsebseb, That's not lawful, but fuck if I careMar 01 19:33
bruce89I agreeMar 01 19:33
sebsebsebDaemonFC: you can get the codecs after woulds I think from the repoMar 01 19:34
sebsebsebDaemonFC: and it's fineMar 01 19:34
DaemonFCcompatibility with what they put out there should be a guaranteed rightMar 01 19:34
DaemonFCwith no license feeMar 01 19:34
sebsebsebDaemonFC: without payingMar 01 19:34
sebsebsebDaemonFC: or so I  read or whatever, I am not sureMar 01 19:34
sebsebsebI guess it's correct, otherwise why are the codecs in the repo?Mar 01 19:34
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I mainly just use them for compatibility, sometimes to convert to free formatsMar 01 19:34
DaemonFCI consider them there for jailbreaking reasonsMar 01 19:35
sebsebsebDaemonFC: jailbraking reasons?Mar 01 19:35
DaemonFCyeah as in the nonfree format is the jail and having the codec that can read it helps me break it outMar 01 19:35
sebsebsebjail non free formatMar 01 19:36
sebsebsebkey  the codecMar 01 19:36
sebsebsebthat's what you meanMar 01 19:36
DaemonFCAudible likes to sell proprietary DRM'd crap for exampleMar 01 19:36
sebsebsebAudible???Mar 01 19:36
sebsebsebwhoever that isMar 01 19:36
DaemonFCEasy way around the DRM is to let it play and record your sound card with Audacity and then convert that file into Ogg when it's doneMar 01 19:36
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Audio booksMar 01 19:36
DaemonFCor you can burn to CD and rip to OggMar 01 19:37
DaemonFCthere's a program I use that emulates a blank CD being burned and makes an ISO out of itMar 01 19:37
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 19:37
MinceReasy way around DRM is to refuse paying for DRM-encrusted contentMar 01 19:37
DaemonFCmount it and "rip the CD" to OggMar 01 19:37
DaemonFCMinceR, It's no DRM'd long after I get itMar 01 19:38
DaemonFClolMar 01 19:38
DaemonFC*notMar 01 19:38
MinceRit isn't DRM-ed even before i get it :>Mar 01 19:38
MinceRmost of the caseMar 01 19:38
bruce89that Settlers VII? thing is rather worryinMar 01 19:38
MinceRthe exceptions i know about are the DVDs i spent my culture vouchers onMar 01 19:39
*Atlas2070 (~ender2070@bas2-malton22-1242390733.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 19:40
DaemonFCMinceR, I'm just as happy with 192k Vorbis as I am with the CDMar 01 19:45
DaemonFCmost of my CDs have only been played once, to rip themMar 01 19:45
DaemonFCthe only reason I buy CDs is to evade the MP3 files they sellMar 01 19:46
DaemonFCthis Ubuntu Music Store is using 7digital which has a lot of stuff in 320k MP3 so it can hog your portable and sound like shit at the same timeMar 01 19:47
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 19:47
MinceR320k mp3 sounds like shit?Mar 01 19:47
DaemonFCyeah, the lowpass is well into the range of human hearingMar 01 19:48
DaemonFCit has other problems that Vorbis doesn'tMar 01 19:48
*jono (~jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 19:48
Atlas2070DaemonFC is an audiophileMar 01 19:48
Atlas2070he rips recordsMar 01 19:48
DaemonFCthe designers of MP3 didn't place much importance on frequencies above 16 Khz, so it has no way to efficiently encode themMar 01 19:49
DaemonFCso you get your choice between bloated files that still can't represent the human hearing range or reasonable sized files which sound totally awfulMar 01 19:49
DaemonFCMP3 quality starts at bad and moves down to worseMar 01 19:50
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 19:50
MinceRhe's not an audiophile, he listens to lossy conversions of his audio files ;)Mar 01 19:50
Atlas2070he uses flac too for archivalMar 01 19:50
MinceRDaemonFC: icMar 01 19:50
schestowitz[19:10] <sebsebseb> schestowitz: is that the first time you put in a load of stuff from IRC into a blog entry?Mar 01 19:50
schestowitzNoMar 01 19:50
*qu1j0t3 (~FurnaceBo@bas1-toronto10-1279559420.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 19:51
_GoblinI remember a few ocassions....Mar 01 19:51
DaemonFCI'm not to the point where I insist on the CD, but I will go so far as to say MP3 is insufficient and clearly suboptimal as a lossy codecMar 01 19:51
Atlas2070mp3 is also a lot olderMar 01 19:51
_Goblinand ogg (sadly) is as closed a mp3 in respect of small amount of external standalone devices that support it.....Mar 01 19:52
DaemonFCAtlas2070, Yeah, mid 80s to early 90sMar 01 19:52
MinceRat least you have the freedom to get such a deviceMar 01 19:52
DaemonFC_Goblin, You can get MP3 players at Walmart that support OggMar 01 19:52
_Goblintrue.Mar 01 19:52
DaemonFCthey're available, but not ubiquitous Mar 01 19:52
_Goblinthat maybe the case, I haven't seen any though and ive looked.Mar 01 19:52
MinceRhttp://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/apple_products.jpgMar 01 19:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 19:53
DaemonFC_Goblin, They carry Sansa Clip and FuzeMar 01 19:53
Atlas2070ipods are overrated anywaysMar 01 19:53
DaemonFCthere's two for youMar 01 19:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] ♺ @PaulGit: @jonobacon: I'm loving Lernid and the sessions tonight! It's certainly keeping me away from the dishes! :)Mar 01 19:53
DaemonFCthose Samsung ones recognize OggMar 01 19:53
Atlas2070i have a handheld linux gameboy clone that plays ogg filesMar 01 19:53
Atlas2070the GP2XMar 01 19:53
_Goblindaemonfc: Im sure you can list many, what I am saying is the average device available to the masses in say Tesco's is not ogg compat.Mar 01 19:53
DaemonFCsome of the generic store brand MP3 players support Ogg but don't advertise itMar 01 19:53
*FurnaceBoy has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)Mar 01 19:54
DaemonFC_Goblin, You don't have to go out of your way or pay through the noseMar 01 19:54
DaemonFCthat's what I'm sayingMar 01 19:54
MinceRTCPMP (for winblows mobile) can play ogg vorbis, tooMar 01 19:54
DaemonFCyepMar 01 19:54
Atlas2070_Goblin - if the player doesnt support OGG, it may as well not exist (to us at least)Mar 01 19:54
_GoblinDaemonFC: never said you did, but unless mainstream devices are supporting it, people are not going to use it and the ogg format is just as closed.Mar 01 19:54
DaemonFCA lot of those noname Chinese iPod ripoffs on eBay will play Ogg tooMar 01 19:54
_GoblinAtlas2070: I would agree.Mar 01 19:54
DaemonFCthose are dirt cheapMar 01 19:54
DaemonFC_Goblin, It's just going a little bit out of your way for much better qualityMar 01 19:55
_GoblinDaemonFC: I am talking mainstream devices....theres plenty of devices that are ogg, but these are not the ones lining the shelves in highstreet stores.Mar 01 19:55
DaemonFCI can take 20 minutes and researchMar 01 19:55
DaemonFCSansa is popularMar 01 19:55
*DaemonFC has three of themMar 01 19:55
bruce89my HTC Hero supports it, but no mention on the boxMar 01 19:56
DaemonFCThe Fuze is definitely the best $50 you can spend (that'll get you a recertified 8 GB)Mar 01 19:56
DaemonFCand thy have micro SD slotsMar 01 19:56
_GoblinDaemonFC: until the Tesco's special (costing £20) supports ogg, I doubt it will get mainstream penetration and mainstream penetration is what its about....Mar 01 19:56
DaemonFC_Goblin, Most people don't know what Ogg is, MP3 is a household nameMar 01 19:57
_GoblinDaemonFC: in 10 years time if ogg never took off, then its as closed (effectively) as WMV.Mar 01 19:57
_Goblin*WMAMar 01 19:57
DaemonFCeven the latest proprietary crap is having trouble de-throning MP3Mar 01 19:57
_GoblinDaemonFC: and thats the problem.Mar 01 19:57
DaemonFC_Goblin, Not reallyMar 01 19:57
_GoblinDaemonFC: ?Mar 01 19:57
MinceR_Goblin: it can never be as closed as wmvMar 01 19:57
DaemonFCit costs nothing to package the codec for your device and *some* people find it usefulMar 01 19:57
*schestowitz is thinking of moving to Konqueror as main browser, plugins being a barrierMar 01 19:58
DaemonFCit's an easy sale that costs you littleMar 01 19:58
MinceR_Goblin: it will still be legal to use and the tools for it will still be availableMar 01 19:58
_GoblinDaemonFC: true, I was making a point about penetration and lack of support through lack of interest.Mar 01 19:58
MinceR_Goblin: also, the rise of mobile phones means that software-based solutions are getting easier to obtainMar 01 19:58
Atlas2070schestowitz - good choice, konquerer is a nice browserMar 01 19:58
DaemonFC_Goblin, Free software doesn't need as much interest to be profitableMar 01 19:59
DaemonFCIf Sandisk had to pay 75 cents a player to someone for Ogg, it wouldn't have itMar 01 19:59
_GoblinDaemonFC: personally I am a vynl fan...In respect of software based, it means nothing I have a DS R4 player for ogg.Mar 01 19:59
DaemonFCthat's what they pay for MP3Mar 01 19:59
DaemonFCOgg is royalty free and might increase sales 2%Mar 01 19:59
DaemonFCIt's all win and no sweatMar 01 19:59
_Goblinbut as I say, if first has to be accepted by the masses.Mar 01 19:59
_Goblinand Im not seeing that with ogg.Mar 01 20:00
_Goblinas you say, people know mp3...Mar 01 20:00
qu1j0t3DaemonFC: hey! more code, less talk!Mar 01 20:00
MinceReven if it isn't accepted by the masses, it will remain usable to us.Mar 01 20:00
DaemonFCOgg can survive and gain broad support with a tiny fraction of the users MP3 requires to make it worthwhileMar 01 20:00
*qu1j0t3 is now known as FurnaceBoyMar 01 20:00
DaemonFCa very tiny sliverMar 01 20:00
FurnaceBoydamn net disconnectMar 01 20:00
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: why? ffx too bloaty?Mar 01 20:00
_Goblinmincer: but not as functional.  IMO if the masses accept it then the mainstream devices support it and it lives on...Mar 01 20:00
_Goblinfunctional, bad choice of wordsMar 01 20:01
_Gobliner...Mar 01 20:01
DaemonFC_Goblin, I think personally, that Ogg support is as much an attempt to get people to stop flashing the firmware and charging back the unit that they brick by taking it back to WalmartMar 01 20:01
_Goblingeneric...Mar 01 20:01
DaemonFCB-)Mar 01 20:01
DaemonFCnot having Ogg is costing them in chargebacksMar 01 20:02
_Goblinthere could be something in that.Mar 01 20:02
MinceR_Goblin: i think that the mainstream devices are becoming more flexible in this regardMar 01 20:02
DaemonFCso they slap it in there to stop returnsMar 01 20:02
_Goblinmincer: true, I see that with Xvid/Divx et al.Mar 01 20:02
_GoblinMinceR: £29 for a standalone unit, capable of handling most of what you throw at it.Mar 01 20:03
MinceR_Goblin: also with music-oriented mobile phones becoming more commonMar 01 20:03
_Goblingod I hate those....Mar 01 20:03
MinceRwhy?Mar 01 20:03
DaemonFCsebsebseb, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Design_limitationsMar 01 20:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: MP3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 163.22 KBMar 01 20:03
_Goblinalways meet them on the train....Mar 01 20:03
_Goblinbeing played too loud at the expense of everyone else.Mar 01 20:03
DaemonFCWikipedia sums up why MP3 is bad (quality wise) fairly wellMar 01 20:03
MinceRi wouldn't want a discrete music player because it wouldn't allow me to hear the phone ringMar 01 20:03
MinceR(through the headphones)Mar 01 20:03
DaemonFCno scale factor band for high frequencies is probably the most damning single item thereMar 01 20:04
_Goblinis there any point of a lossless format when its being pumped out the internal speaker of a mobile phone?Mar 01 20:04
DaemonFC_Goblin, None at allMar 01 20:04
MinceRi never considered using those built-in speakers :)Mar 01 20:04
MinceRall the mobile phones i had came bundled with headsets anyway, iircMar 01 20:04
_GoblinI wish the people I meet could have the same ethos.Mar 01 20:04
DaemonFC_Goblin, I have 40 MB FLACs on my phone so they can sound like a video game console from 1982!Mar 01 20:04
DaemonFCWheeeeeeee!!!!!Mar 01 20:04
_Goblinbring back vynlMar 01 20:05
DaemonFCno, my cell phone is CD qualityMar 01 20:05
MinceRDaemonFC: until you plug in a high-end headphone, that is. :>Mar 01 20:05
DaemonFCCrapple told me soMar 01 20:05
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 20:05
MinceRlolMar 01 20:05
DaemonFCCrapple never gives me anything that's not CD qualityMar 01 20:05
DaemonFCthe bitrate of the CD was brought down 90% so Crapple would be accurateMar 01 20:06
_Goblinthis is good.............Mar 01 20:06
_Goblin"A lawyer for Microsoft confirmed that the software giant told the US Department of Justice and the European Commission how Google’s business practices may be harming publishers"Mar 01 20:06
bruce89shame CD stands for Crap DisseminatorMar 01 20:06
_Goblinyou have to give MS credit....Mar 01 20:06
_Goblinthey really have no shame.Mar 01 20:07
_Goblinmaybe they didn't consider their actions in respect of the Plurk incident as being harmful?Mar 01 20:07
_Goblinor maybe they just forgot?Mar 01 20:07
_Goblinor maybe their own anti-trust issues, not limited to OEM.Mar 01 20:08
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[eduvid] "Let Govt create are distribute common software to its public" - quote from my article - still writing -Mar 01 20:08
DaemonFCMinceR, There are limitations of the human hearing system that no format, no matter how good, will improve on a perceived quality. CD's are well beyond capable of surpassing human hearing ability, and people that complain about them are actually complaining about dynamic range compression and probably don't know itMar 01 20:08
MinceRthey probably fancy themselves the rightful owners of the Universe.Mar 01 20:08
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_warMar 01 20:08
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Loudness war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 77.58 KBMar 01 20:08
MinceRDaemonFC: i've read about thatMar 01 20:08
_GoblinMincer: I thought they were....my bad.Mar 01 20:08
MinceRDaemonFC: is there any way to get around it nowadays?Mar 01 20:08
DaemonFCMinceR, No. Once the CD is mastered that way, it is irreparably damagedMar 01 20:09
DaemonFCthe only people that could fix it is the record company with a new issue of the CDMar 01 20:09
MinceRDaemonFC: i mean, are there any sources that sell music that wasn't mastered that way?Mar 01 20:10
MinceRDaemonFC: also, what are the practices outside the record industry?Mar 01 20:10
DaemonFCMinceR, Metallica's Death Magnetic was ROYALLY fucked this wayMar 01 20:10
_GoblinMetallica? Lol.Mar 01 20:10
DaemonFCbut the rips you get off the internet (torrent sites) tend to be from Guitar Hero 3Mar 01 20:10
_Goblinoh dear.Mar 01 20:10
DaemonFCthey don't have that problemMar 01 20:10
MinceRi like Metallica's songs before St. AngerMar 01 20:10
_GoblinAfter the Black album....awful.Mar 01 20:11
MinceRDaemonFC: that's an unexpected source to get good quality versions :)Mar 01 20:11
_Goblinjust like Gnr after appetite.Mar 01 20:11
DaemonFC_Goblin, S&M is goodMar 01 20:11
DaemonFCSt. Anger is crapMar 01 20:11
_Goblinsorry?Mar 01 20:11
DaemonFCDeath Magnetic is OKMar 01 20:11
_GoblinS&M?  I thought we were talking music?Mar 01 20:11
DaemonFCjsut not the album versionMar 01 20:11
MinceRi like S&MMar 01 20:11
_Goblin;)Mar 01 20:11
DaemonFCugghMar 01 20:11
MinceRthe Metallica album, that isMar 01 20:11
_Goblinah...Mar 01 20:11
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%26M_%28album%29Mar 01 20:11
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 20:12
_Goblinoh dear...Mar 01 20:12
_GoblinHow is lars these days?Mar 01 20:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[eduvid] #WTF #wtf RT @Vulturo: Facebook Patents User News Feeds http://ff.im/-gLDGyMar 01 20:12
_Goblinstill winding up the BT community?Mar 01 20:12
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Facebook Patents User News Feeds | Blogs | ITBusinessEdge.com .::. Size~: 77.65 KBMar 01 20:12
DaemonFC_Goblin, issued a backwards pseudo-apology for the Napster thingMar 01 20:12
_GoblinMetallica is mudane....easy to play rubbish.Mar 01 20:13
DaemonFCin admitting it wasn't smart of him to do it cause of the fan backlashMar 01 20:13
DaemonFCnot cause he's an unethical prick :)Mar 01 20:13
_Goblini think he's just greedyMar 01 20:13
_Goblinand tallentlessMar 01 20:13
Atlas2070interesting, I didn't know Go will be in GCCMar 01 20:14
Atlas2070http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2010-01/msg00500.htmlMar 01 20:14
_GoblinA real tallent:Mar 01 20:14
_Goblinhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yc8xyL0XxoMar 01 20:14
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Joe Satriani - Always With Me, Always With You (Live) .::. Size~: 133.87 KBMar 01 20:14
_Goblintook me 1.5 years to be able to play without error.Mar 01 20:14
bruce89Atlas2070: that's goodish newsMar 01 20:15
Atlas2070:DMar 01 20:17
_Goblin...Mar 01 20:18
_Goblinwho's been watching the new V series?Mar 01 20:19
_Goblinthat's put a stop to that conversation......Mar 01 20:19
_GoblinI think I'll go back to watching WWE Superstars.Mar 01 20:20
Atlas2070lolMar 01 20:21
_Goblinthere....Mar 01 20:24
_Goblindone....Mar 01 20:24
_Goblinit only had 2 mins left.Mar 01 20:24
_Goblin39 mins....too short.Mar 01 20:24
_Goblin27 days to WM.Mar 01 20:24
_Goblinanyone taken a look at Zattoo?Mar 01 20:25
_Goblinvery good little package.Mar 01 20:25
_Goblinstuff you all... I'll talk in #windowsshills at least people will talk there, true they might want to sell me but at least its company.....Mar 01 20:27
*bruce89 waits for GtkGoMar 01 20:27
_Goblin*sell me bad softwareMar 01 20:27
bruce89_Goblin: alright, no, no and noMar 01 20:28
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WindowsMobile is Dying as More Major Developers Officially Abandon http://ur1.ca/o0vl #windows #skype #apple #androidMar 01 20:28
phIRCe-BNcTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 1.93 KBMar 01 20:28
_Goblinno, no and no?Mar 01 20:28
bruce89the answers to your questionsMar 01 20:29
_GoblinahMar 01 20:29
_GoblinI see...Mar 01 20:29
bruce89I know you only asked 2, but I gave you one answer freeMar 01 20:30
_Goblingood of you.!Mar 01 20:31
_GoblinWinmob....was dying the day I first bought a phone with it on....awful....Mar 01 20:31
_Goblinno redeeming features.Mar 01 20:32
_Goblinand the first time Ive had a battery cover wear out on me because of Winmob crashing and needing to have the battery taken out to switch it off.Mar 01 20:32
*tessier has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)Mar 01 20:32
bruce89not the sign of a good OSMar 01 20:33
bruce89reminds me of PalmOSMar 01 20:33
_Goblinnever used palmos...Mar 01 20:33
bruce89had a habit of crashing and needing resettedMar 01 20:33
_GoblinI had two winmob phones, double the cost, twice the pain.Mar 01 20:34
bruce89the LifeDrive was fun, each time you reset it, it'd take 5 minutes to start due to doing fsckMar 01 20:36
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: PlayStation 3 trounces Xbox 360 for reliability http://newstechnica.com/?p=1772 #PS3 #sonyfailMar 01 20:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] @schestowitz Just to confirm roy, Mupen is not default with 10.04...I assume its in the repro's I was having two conversations...Mar 01 20:38
phIRCe-BNcTitle: PlayStation 3 trounces Xbox 360 for reliability | NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 37.05 KBMar 01 20:38
_Goblin360 not reliable?  Thats breaking news from Newstechnica and Sony.Mar 01 20:39
_Goblin;)Mar 01 20:39
_Goblinred rings of death perhaps?Mar 01 20:39
*Tallken (~f2f93bf57@93.102.34.80.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 20:40
MinceRpalmos 5 is pathetic, even worse than winmobMar 01 20:42
MinceRthough at least it gets alarms rightMar 01 20:42
_GoblinIm in luck....Ive got a box of dirty chicken here I am about to enjoy...Mar 01 20:42
MinceRdirty chicken?Mar 01 20:42
_Goblinyep.Mar 01 20:42
_Goblinsorry...are you from UK?Mar 01 20:43
MinceRnopeMar 01 20:44
MinceRi'm from hungaryMar 01 20:44
_Goblindirty chicken = Cheap chicken from a cheap chicken shop....the aforementioned chicken is of unknown origin and unknown species....also the hygene in respect of the aforementioned chicken leaves alot to be desired.Mar 01 20:44
MinceRicMar 01 20:44
_Goblin*fast food...Mar 01 20:44
_GoblinIts a London term....next time you vist and you want to eat cheap (no pun intended) just ask someone for directions to the nearest dirty chicken shop.Mar 01 20:45
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I am trying to move to Konqueror today. So far it's OK.Mar 01 20:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Yes, 10.04 is good. Rock stable (and only Alpha 3) speed improvments are noticable + not so many play once games! Good work!Mar 01 20:52
DaemonFC_Goblin, That sounds dirty and legally questionableMar 01 20:52
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 20:52
*DaemonFC thinks you might be trying to make MinceR the butt of a jokeMar 01 20:54
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Oops, Microsoft does it again... http://bit.ly/bwnUvJ or merely visit here for an appology? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_42hkVVVXEMar 01 20:55
phIRCe-BNcTitle:  Microsoft's EU ballot fails to randomize browser order .::. Size~: 123.91 KBMar 01 20:55
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Paul McDermott - Oops!... I Did It Again. .::. Size~: 103.56 KBMar 01 20:55
_Goblindaemonfc: not at all..Mar 01 20:55
_Goblindaemonfc: however you are right there is something legally questionable about dirty chicken.Mar 01 20:56
MinceR_Goblin: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2010/02/microsoft-random-browser-ballot.htmlMar 01 20:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Doing the Microsoft Shuffle: Algorithm Fail in Browser Ballot .::. Size~: 145.29 KBMar 01 20:56
_GoblinDaemonFC: in that it is not up to EU food safety standards.Mar 01 20:56
DaemonFChehMar 01 20:56
DaemonFCdo they really have EU-wide food safety standards?Mar 01 20:56
_Goblin3 pieces of chicken 6 hotwings, chips and can drink £3.50....you tell me how on earth they do it for that price?Mar 01 20:57
*DaemonFC doesn't get why a country would want to give up sovereignty like thisMar 01 20:57
DaemonFCoh wellMar 01 20:57
Atlas2070 the EU is copying the soviet unionMar 01 20:58
_Goblinmind you it has its advantages....Mar 01 20:58
MinceRDaemonFC: like how the states of the USA did?Mar 01 20:58
DaemonFCif nothing else, you'd think the control freakery of a government would prevent this shitMar 01 20:58
MinceRoh, snapMar 01 20:58
DaemonFCMinceR?Mar 01 20:58
DaemonFCThe states have always held shared sovereigntyMar 01 20:58
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: the EU even has laws!Mar 01 20:58
DaemonFCit's part of what is agreed to when the constitution of the United States is ratified :)Mar 01 20:58
_Goblincan't argue...don't know much about the brief history of the USA.Mar 01 20:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] For me the difference is so small I reduce it to the same thing with two focal points of view: better development model or user freedom.Mar 01 20:59
DaemonFC_Goblin, The feds have the power to regulate all commerceMar 01 20:59
FurnaceBoyterrible, just terrible...Mar 01 20:59
DaemonFCeven intrastate commerce on the theory that it may impact interstate commerceMar 01 20:59
FurnaceBoyregulations are such a nuisance when pursuing profitMar 01 20:59
_Goblinfeds? what do you mean....we have a term for feds here....im not sure its the same.Mar 01 21:00
DaemonFC_Goblin, The federal level of the US governmentMar 01 21:00
DaemonFCTechnically all US citizens are dual citizensMar 01 21:00
_Goblinthats what I thought...thought id check.Mar 01 21:00
DaemonFCof the US and of the state they reside inMar 01 21:00
MinceRDaemonFC: guess what, the members of the EU are the ones who make decisions that affect the EU (theoretically)Mar 01 21:00
_Goblinfeds in uk = covert police officers.Mar 01 21:00
_Goblin* street termMar 01 21:01
DaemonFC_Goblin, It can be used in that sense here thoughMar 01 21:01
MinceR(but actually the implementation is deeply flawed)Mar 01 21:01
DaemonFC"Busted by the feds"Mar 01 21:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] and that's when people ask me what's the difference. and to me it's mostly that.Mar 01 21:01
DaemonFCMinceR, I'd imagine the EU is all about horse trading, which is great if you're the guy with the most horses to tradeMar 01 21:02
DaemonFC;)Mar 01 21:02
MinceRlol wutMar 01 21:02
FurnaceBoyyeah what MinceR saidMar 01 21:02
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: please go on, we'd love to hear your ideas about the EUMar 01 21:02
schestowitz[20:00] <FurnaceBoy> schestowitz: why? ffx too bloaty?Mar 01 21:02
DaemonFCMinceR, I meant, I'm sure some of those states have more bargaining power than others and use itMar 01 21:02
schestowitzYsMar 01 21:02
FurnaceBoyschestowitz: same hereMar 01 21:02
MinceRDaemonFC: how would you do it then?Mar 01 21:03
MinceRDaemonFC: remember that states have a non-uniform populationMar 01 21:03
DaemonFCExactly that way if I was getting the good dealMar 01 21:03
DaemonFCMinceR, This is trueMar 01 21:03
_GoblinI'll tell you what I think of the EU....I cannot understand why they tackled the browser issue and left the OEM one alone.....madness....is a browser really more inportant than an MS tax?  obviously so.Mar 01 21:03
FurnaceBoy_Goblin: i agree whole heartedlyMar 01 21:03
DaemonFCMinceR, The bigger states get more federal money raining down on them, but they also have more people paying taxesMar 01 21:03
MinceRin practice, the EU seems to be more of a central place to put corruption into effect than anything elseMar 01 21:04
DaemonFCso I think that balances outMar 01 21:04
MinceRit was probably not designed to be that, but that's what it turned out to beMar 01 21:04
FurnaceBoy_Goblin: groklaw was mumbling about Kroes leaving, so she softened the outcome toleave on ahigh note, or something. who knows what went on..Mar 01 21:04
FurnaceBoy_Goblin: it's amazing. they got away with everything. OEM left in place. Who will challenge this next???Mar 01 21:04
MinceRi'm pretty sure the USA has such idiotic centralised practices tooMar 01 21:04
FurnaceBoyafter DoJ and EU both failedMar 01 21:04
MinceRthe DMCA, for exampleMar 01 21:04
MinceRand letting m$ go with a slap on the wristMar 01 21:05
DaemonFCMinceR, Our system also grants over-representation to less populated statesMar 01 21:05
DaemonFCand greater weight in presidential electionsMar 01 21:05
DaemonFCyou get two senators whether you're California or Wyoming :)Mar 01 21:05
_Goblinmoving on.....Mar 01 21:07
DaemonFCMinceR, California gets 1 senator per 18.5 million people at their current population, whereas Wyoming gets 1 senator per 272,135 peopleMar 01 21:07
DaemonFCbig differenceMar 01 21:07
_GoblinBT or NG.....? - To me BT is completely pointless, its slow and the advantage of verification of transfers is really a moot point when you have nzb and par2Mar 01 21:08
DaemonFCso it could be said that smaller stated have undue influence over the senateMar 01 21:08
Atlas2070EU isn't democraticMar 01 21:08
*qu1j0t3 (~FurnaceBo@bas1-toronto10-1279559641.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 21:08
DaemonFCand you don't get things done without the senateMar 01 21:08
MinceRNG?Mar 01 21:08
DaemonFC*statesMar 01 21:08
_Goblinnewsgroup (binaries)Mar 01 21:08
_Goblinjust been getting a few distro's via the binaries....Mar 01 21:09
MinceRnewsgroups don't seem to be fit for filesharing at allMar 01 21:09
_Goblinfar better than bittorrent.Mar 01 21:09
schestowitzFurnaceBoy: how do I move between tabs with keyboard?Mar 01 21:09
MinceRi suppose clients don't get to contribute their upload bandwidthMar 01 21:09
_Goblinmincer: agreed, but then theres no sharing as such, you are simply downloading what others have uploaded.Mar 01 21:09
MinceR_Goblin: at the cost of those who run the servers, just like with HTTP, except a lot more complicated.Mar 01 21:10
_Goblinmincer: and paying for the service means I get very good transfer speeds infact double what I got even on the fastest torrent on linuxtracker.Mar 01 21:10
*FurnaceBoy has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)Mar 01 21:11
_GoblinIve been getting disks of Amiga demoscene music....my transfer has not dropped below 720k per sec....Mar 01 21:11
MinceRi get good enough transfer speed on BT without payingMar 01 21:11
Atlas2070newsgroups usually run at your ISP's top speed, due to the bottleneck being on your endMar 01 21:11
_Goblin* can I just add Amiga demoscene music is copyright free.Mar 01 21:11
DaemonFCmeans Wyoming gets 3 electoral votes (1 per 181,423 people) while California gets 55 (1 per 672,727 people)Mar 01 21:11
DaemonFCtell me how that's a democracy :)Mar 01 21:11
Atlas2070not having to upload makes your ISP happy tooMar 01 21:11
_GoblinIm with Tigernews and Ive been very happy with their service for the past few years.Mar 01 21:12
DaemonFCa vote in Wyoming is worth 3.7 in CaliforniaMar 01 21:12
Atlas2070some newsgroup providers also offer encryption (giganews)Mar 01 21:12
_Goblina bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.Mar 01 21:12
DaemonFCtwo to get Bush?Mar 01 21:12
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 21:13
_Goblintwo in bushMar 01 21:13
_Goblin;)Mar 01 21:13
DaemonFCyes, that is the formula they used to give us BushMar 01 21:13
MinceRdo two hands fit in the bush? :>Mar 01 21:13
DaemonFCone vote for Al is worth two votes for BushMar 01 21:13
DaemonFC(Diebold software)Mar 01 21:13
Atlas2070lolMar 01 21:13
Atlas2070i find it somewhat amusing that people freak out about Diebold in the USAMar 01 21:14
Atlas2070but nobody in Canada caresMar 01 21:14
Atlas2070we've had diebold for yearsMar 01 21:14
DaemonFCAtlas2070, They changed their name obviously, they're now Premier Election Services. New name, same friendly tampering.Mar 01 21:14
Atlas2070DaemonFC - they still exist in Canada under DieboldMar 01 21:15
Atlas2070actually I knew a guy who works for themMar 01 21:15
DaemonFClike Blackwater changed names to Xe after the whole machine gunning Iraqi civilians indiscriminately unpleasantnessMar 01 21:15
Atlas2070a freemason actually, but he claimed that had nothing to do with his employmentMar 01 21:15
DaemonFCchange your name and the scandal goes awayMar 01 21:15
DaemonFCAtlas2070, The FreeMasons aren't anything to worry aboutMar 01 21:16
Atlas2070yeah I knowMar 01 21:16
Atlas2070the lower level ones don't know anythingMar 01 21:16
DaemonFCit's not much more than a social clubMar 01 21:16
DaemonFCthey do some charityMar 01 21:17
Atlas2070its more than thatMar 01 21:17
Atlas2070but not much moreMar 01 21:17
DaemonFCThey run hospitals for kids with no insuranceMar 01 21:17
Atlas2070they also give fellow members deals, discounts and leniency Mar 01 21:17
Atlas2070the guy I talked to said he can get away from a speeding ticket if the cop is a masonMar 01 21:18
DaemonFCI'd believe thatMar 01 21:18
Atlas2070your first american president was a freemason tooMar 01 21:18
Atlas2070its on his memorialMar 01 21:19
DaemonFCyeah as well as many prominent government officials from that timeMar 01 21:19
Atlas2070"Free Mason and First President"Mar 01 21:19
DaemonFCthey're allowing women nowMar 01 21:19
Atlas2070the lower levels are the social club and charity stuffMar 01 21:19
DaemonFCand atheistsMar 01 21:19
Atlas2070the higher levels, 33rd degree and up are differentMar 01 21:20
Atlas2070you can't even get that high unless you're several generations inMar 01 21:20
DaemonFCthere's a lot of unfounded rumors going like "They're a Satanic cult"Mar 01 21:20
DaemonFCI think that's FUDMar 01 21:20
Atlas2070they are atheists themselves - at the topMar 01 21:20
DaemonFCI couldn't see my uncle in a Satanic cult, lolMar 01 21:21
Atlas2070lolMar 01 21:21
_GoblinFUD is a point of view though isnt it...Mar 01 21:21
_Goblinlet me example...Mar 01 21:21
Atlas2070those are the enterprising authors :DMar 01 21:21
_Goblinthou shalt not kill....or thou will go to hell (or something like that)Mar 01 21:22
_Goblinto a believer its not FUD its honest held belief.Mar 01 21:22
DaemonFC_Goblin, People like to FUD anything they don't knowMar 01 21:22
DaemonFCit's in our natureMar 01 21:22
DaemonFC;)Mar 01 21:22
_GoblinDaemonFC: but then you yourself are guilty (unless im mistaken) with your views on religion.Mar 01 21:22
DaemonFCNot all religionMar 01 21:22
Atlas2070he also FUD's marriageMar 01 21:23
DaemonFCI never said all religionMar 01 21:23
_Goblinsince we don't know...nobody can say.Mar 01 21:23
_Goblinmarriage...the biggest example of lockin there is....and Im a married man so I know what Im talking about!!!! ;)Mar 01 21:23
DaemonFCOK, the non-violent ones that don't try to use the legal system as a club are OK in my opinionMar 01 21:23
qu1j0t3lulzMar 01 21:23
*qu1j0t3 is now known as FurnaceBoyMar 01 21:23
DaemonFCthat rules out a few though :)Mar 01 21:23
DaemonFCincluding prominent onesMar 01 21:23
_Goblindaemonfc: let me prove a point about fud....Mar 01 21:24
FurnaceBoyDaemonFC: you mean where they are not the de facto law already :)Mar 01 21:24
_Goblindaemonfc: who discovered electricity?Mar 01 21:24
Atlas2070after a few generations every religion and government goes corruptMar 01 21:24
DaemonFChell if I know, and this is a trick question so. hell if I knowMar 01 21:24
schestowitzCan I alt+tab# in Konq?Mar 01 21:24
_Goblindaemonfc: this is not a trick...merely a point to prove about fud...Mar 01 21:24
DaemonFCand I use tons of itMar 01 21:24
DaemonFCI failMar 01 21:25
schestowitzI find some things limiting, but I have ways around most things so farMar 01 21:25
_Goblincan anyone say who discovered electricity then?Mar 01 21:25
schestowitzIraqiesMar 01 21:25
schestowitz*isMar 01 21:25
DaemonFCRick AstleyMar 01 21:25
_GoblinlolMar 01 21:25
_GoblincheatMar 01 21:25
Atlas2070schestowitz - what is your reasoning behind the switchMar 01 21:25
schestowitzHeheMar 01 21:25
FurnaceBoyMuhammad AliMar 01 21:25
_Goblinschestowitz: you knewMar 01 21:25
_Goblinschestowitz: I spoke before.Mar 01 21:25
schestowitzAtlas2070: weight mostly. And I think Firefox leaks pissMar 01 21:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] darn that mark eris, darn him to heck. he pointed me at http://www.mrsvee.co.uk/downloads/index.phpMar 01 21:26
phIRCe-BNcTitle: mrsvee recordings | post progressive | electronica | ambient | rock | www.mrsvee.co.uk .::. Size~: 39.88 KBMar 01 21:26
_Goblinthat sounds messy (re firefox)Mar 01 21:26
_Goblinglad I use Chromium.Mar 01 21:26
schestowitz_Goblin: ^_^Mar 01 21:26
schestowitzChromium is GoogleMar 01 21:26
_Goblinat least there is no p*ss leaking though.Mar 01 21:26
schestowitzAnd discriminates against Linux and has proprietary partsMar 01 21:27
schestowitzChrome anywayMar 01 21:27
Atlas2070LOLMar 01 21:27
Atlas2070Mozilla doesn't? D3D and Bing supportMar 01 21:27
DaemonFCFirefox has gotten much better than it used to be. I braved Firefox 1 and before evenMar 01 21:27
MinceRisn't bingo only pushed into firefox by canonical?Mar 01 21:27
MinceRbtw, can chromium play h.264 or is that chrome-only?Mar 01 21:27
Atlas2070mozilla's exec said people shouldnt use googleMar 01 21:27
_GoblinIve always liked FF although Chromium is far faster...I go with the best for me.Mar 01 21:27
DaemonFCChromium is for whining nancy boys who want their mommies!!!Mar 01 21:28
DaemonFC:PMar 01 21:28
_Goblinmincer: could not tell you.Mar 01 21:28
Atlas2070chromium plays h.264Mar 01 21:28
_Goblinwhats wrong with wanting my mum?Mar 01 21:28
_Goblinbest time of my life was when I lived at home.Mar 01 21:28
_Goblinso simple....so stress freeMar 01 21:28
DaemonFCChromium doesn't play h.264Mar 01 21:28
DaemonFCit still has Theora thoughMar 01 21:29
MinceRAtlas2070: well, people shouldn't use google. but they shouldn't use bingo or microhoo! either.Mar 01 21:29
Atlas2070MinceR - theres nothing wrong with googleMar 01 21:29
MinceRexcept for the privacy and censorship issues, you mean?Mar 01 21:29
DaemonFCMinceR, I switched back. Yahoo search results are worthless, who they came from is moot if the results are this bad.Mar 01 21:29
MinceRor the abysmal quality of their software?Mar 01 21:29
MinceR(especially google earth)Mar 01 21:30
Atlas2070chromium performs better than mozilla in all cases I run intoMar 01 21:30
Atlas2070andMar 01 21:30
_GoblinI must say though, things like Wave really are coming along nicely...Mar 01 21:30
Atlas2070privacy and censorship issues are moot, since your government has ways around it anywaysMar 01 21:30
MinceRchromium breaks font rendering because they wanted it to be like winblowsMar 01 21:30
Atlas2070at the isp levelMar 01 21:30
MinceRthey can't do anything at the isp level if i use HTTPS and ensure authentication of the serverMar 01 21:30
_Goblinno be fair, Ive nothing but good experiences of Chromium.Mar 01 21:31
_Goblin*toMar 01 21:31
MinceRgoogle lets them read their storage.Mar 01 21:31
Atlas2070Mincer - the fbi can break truecrypt, what makes you think homeland security can't break https?Mar 01 21:31
MinceRAtlas2070: aren't you a defeatist?Mar 01 21:31
_Goblinor a realist?Mar 01 21:32
Atlas2070im saying you have no privacy anywaysMar 01 21:32
MinceRalso, by the time the government realizes they want to collect my search queries a reasonable search engine would have forgotten them long agoMar 01 21:32
_Goblinagreed....Mar 01 21:32
MinceRgoogle retains all private data foreverMar 01 21:32
Atlas2070everything the government wants to know about you is already knownMar 01 21:32
MinceRwithout anonymizationMar 01 21:32
MinceRAtlas2070: not everything they'll want to knowMar 01 21:32
_GoblinI think its a given that goverment would not allow any truely secure or private system for the civilian.Mar 01 21:32
_Goblinthe point is though....Mar 01 21:32
MinceRi think it's a given that it isn't in their power to disallow secure systems.Mar 01 21:32
_Goblintrue...Mar 01 21:33
_GoblinI mean systems that that don't have the means to break.Mar 01 21:33
Atlas2070they have the computational power to crack anything they need toMar 01 21:33
MinceRAtlas2070: do they?Mar 01 21:33
Atlas2070yesMar 01 21:33
MinceRhow do you know?Mar 01 21:33
MinceRdo you work for them?Mar 01 21:33
_GoblinI think it would come down to proportionality.....how "big" is the case they are working on.Mar 01 21:34
Atlas2070its widely known that they are at least 50 years ahead of the curveMar 01 21:34
_Goblini concurrMar 01 21:34
_Goblini concurMar 01 21:34
_Goblinhow many r's is it anyway?Mar 01 21:34
MinceRyeah, "it's widely known"Mar 01 21:35
_Goblinlet me example something else....Mar 01 21:35
DaemonFClooks like MS packed the browser ballot with some IE shells, Maxthon, Avant, Slim Browser, Green Browser, and of course IE 8Mar 01 21:35
DaemonFCso IE is really listed 5 times on that ballotMar 01 21:35
MinceRAtlas2070: so why don't you put all your personal details out on a web page then?Mar 01 21:35
Atlas2070the only way to guarnatee your privacy is to never do thatMar 01 21:36
MinceRhm, you seem to have stated that there's no way to guarantee your privacyMar 01 21:37
Atlas2070electronicallyMar 01 21:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[eduvid] Govt should provision that every hardware vendor must produce driver for GNU/Linux OS too #india #govt #driverMar 01 21:37
Atlas2070they cant hack a piece of paper over the netMar 01 21:37
_GoblinMincer: I think the point would be that for those interested enough to find out (ie government agencies) it poses little problem...Mar 01 21:37
MinceRit seemed to me that we were discussing electronic means of information transfer so farMar 01 21:37
DaemonFCno, schestowitz 6 times (Sleipnir)Mar 01 21:37
DaemonFCMicrosoft IE is on the ballot 6 timesMar 01 21:37
DaemonFCniceMar 01 21:37
Atlas2070my point is that nothing on the internet is privateMar 01 21:38
MinceR_Goblin: i think that the amount of problem it is depends on how much diligence the user and the service providers exertMar 01 21:38
_Goblinyes, thats true...Mar 01 21:38
_GoblinI think it would depend on the level of interest a user attracted from government bodies.Mar 01 21:38
MinceRas a service provider, google could be expected to respect the privacy of their usersMar 01 21:38
MinceRespecially as long as they keep up this "do no evil" bullshit marketingMar 01 21:38
_Goblinthats a fair point, although for me its of little concern (in respect of my data and google)Mar 01 21:39
MinceRand as long as some of their competitors do take more steps to protect the privacy of their usersMar 01 21:39
Atlas2070mincer, microsoft will divulge info with as little as a subpeonaMar 01 21:39
MinceRAtlas2070: so will googleMar 01 21:39
DaemonFCMicrosoft IE is on the ballot 6 times, Mozilla-based browsers 3 times, then you get Safari, Chrome, and Opera each mentioned onceMar 01 21:39
MinceRAtlas2070: the only thing that can keep them from doing so is _not storing the data in the first place_Mar 01 21:39
Atlas2070google has been taken to court for protecting dataMar 01 21:39
_Goblinas long as Google is open to users about what they are signing up to, then I don't see a problem....a little like facebook.Mar 01 21:39
MinceRAtlas2070: anonymizing early, etc.Mar 01 21:39
DaemonFCSo Microsoft has a 2-1 advantage for IE on that ballotMar 01 21:39
DaemonFCand a 6-1 against Opera, Safari, or ChromeMar 01 21:40
MinceR_Goblin: privacy policies tend to be worded deceptivelyMar 01 21:40
_GoblinDaemonFC: IE has never been the problem.....oem is.Mar 01 21:40
_Goblinmincer: and I'd agree that is maybe an issue that needs addressing.Mar 01 21:40
DaemonFC_Goblin, So do you figure more people will unwittingly use IE because it's listed 5 times as another browser?Mar 01 21:40
DaemonFC(misleading)Mar 01 21:40
MinceR_Goblin: a long saga with a little language hidden somewhere that states that they'll divulge all the data if they have the belief that it might be the lawful thing (no mention of court orders!) or that it would help their interests in some wayMar 01 21:40
MinceRso basically they'll divulge any information to anyone if they feel like itMar 01 21:40
MinceRand their "privacy policy" backs thatMar 01 21:41
Atlas2070if you put your real name and pictures on the web, don't talk to me about privacyMar 01 21:41
MinceRnever mind that the policy might not even be legally enforced everywhere or anywhereMar 01 21:41
MinceRAtlas2070: did i?Mar 01 21:41
_Goblinmincer: but then (at least in the UK) a court order can easily be obtained..Mar 01 21:41
MinceRAtlas2070: others probably did, i can't do anything about that...Mar 01 21:42
_Goblinmincer: filesharers for example have found this out...look at the ropey evidence those offered and were still given an order.Mar 01 21:42
Atlas2070im saying in general, i didn't put down your nameMar 01 21:42
MinceR_Goblin: it does have an additional cost if they have to obtain a court order firstMar 01 21:42
_Goblinmincer: minor.Mar 01 21:42
Atlas2070your IP address is all thats needed to identify  a userMar 01 21:42
MinceRthe more targets they take the more it costsMar 01 21:43
_Goblinmincer: I also think you will find all service providers have an information sharing agreement with law enforcement..Mar 01 21:43
MinceRAtlas2070: often it's insufficient -- you also need a timestampMar 01 21:43
_Goblinmincer: only when you look to civil recourse that you have to consider court orders.Mar 01 21:43
MinceRAtlas2070: also, that depends on how much your ISP protects your identityMar 01 21:43
MinceRAtlas2070: and of course the ISP-given IP address can be hiddenMar 01 21:44
Atlas2070you'll need to investigate your ISP's privacy policy tooMar 01 21:44
Atlas2070the IP address method is very reliableMar 01 21:44
MinceRi could also add a VPN service like IPREDator to it...Mar 01 21:44
Atlas2070only a few missed hitsMar 01 21:44
_Goblinmincer: on top of that search warrants are not even needed, for example an arrest under the designs and patents act would allow a Sec18(5) search of the suspects property.Mar 01 21:44
MinceRthose few missed hits can be the most important :>Mar 01 21:44
Atlas2070it really dependsMar 01 21:45
_GoblinI don't think people realize how exposed they are on the net.Mar 01 21:45
Atlas2070theres stuff like TOR, VPNs and proxiesMar 01 21:45
_Goblincertainly in respect of government agencies.Mar 01 21:45
MinceRand I2PMar 01 21:45
MinceRand MixminionMar 01 21:45
Atlas2070something like that + pseudonames + hotspots can keep you privateMar 01 21:46
_GoblinAtlas2070: true...but having looked at Tor is it really viable for what the majority of users will want to do....ie filesharing?Mar 01 21:46
_GoblinAtlas2070: or simply travel to another town with your netbook and use an openwifi connection.Mar 01 21:46
Atlas2070_Goblin - yes, hotspotsMar 01 21:46
_GoblinAtlas2070: this was one of the reasons why I am so against openwifiMar 01 21:47
Atlas2070combined with a pseudoname thoughMar 01 21:47
Atlas2070against openwifi?Mar 01 21:47
Atlas2070whyMar 01 21:47
_GoblinAtlas2070: the government wanted to introduce it in Hyde park.Mar 01 21:47
_GoblinAtlas2070: a great idea in theory, but what sort of dubious characters would be using it....(and im not talking filesharers here0Mar 01 21:47
_GoblinAtlas2070: Im talking more those who trade in indecent images for example.Mar 01 21:48
Atlas2070such a thing is a good idea in my opinionMar 01 21:48
Atlas2070ohMar 01 21:48
Atlas2070i hate it when people use that as an excuse to ban or stop thingsMar 01 21:48
_Goblinthats the problem...Mar 01 21:48
_Goblinyou me and everyone here would not be abusing openwifi...Mar 01 21:48
_Goblinunfortunately there are always those who cannot be trusted and will abuse it.Mar 01 21:49
_Goblinits because of them that everyone suffers.Mar 01 21:49
Atlas2070yeah but it has so many useful purposesMar 01 21:49
_Goblinagreed completely.Mar 01 21:49
Atlas2070its a double edged swordMar 01 21:49
_Goblinand im sure you would act honorably if you had access to it.Mar 01 21:49
_Goblinunfortunately for every Atlas2070 there will be a dubious character too.Mar 01 21:50
Atlas2070it grants everyone in the city anonymouse accessMar 01 21:50
Atlas2070anonymous*Mar 01 21:50
Atlas2070it would protect free speechMar 01 21:50
_Goblinno such thing.Mar 01 21:50
_Goblinnever has been.Mar 01 21:50
Atlas2070dudeMar 01 21:50
_Goblin;)Mar 01 21:50
Atlas2070I know where you're coming fromMar 01 21:50
Atlas2070this would be the closest thing to free speechMar 01 21:51
_Goblinlets look at Sec5 public order for example.Mar 01 21:51
Atlas2070if they can't find out who said it, they cant punish themMar 01 21:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @eduvid Govt should provision that every hardware vendor must produce driver for GNU/Linux OS too #india #govt #driverMar 01 21:51
_Goblinbut even here, roy ocassionally has to warn people about language or topics (and rightfully so)Mar 01 21:51
Atlas2070mainly because of the out of context quotingMar 01 21:52
_Goblintrue...Mar 01 21:52
Atlas2070lolMar 01 21:52
_Goblinbut its still not 100% free speech....Mar 01 21:52
_Goblinotherwise he wouldn't warn.Mar 01 21:52
Atlas2070yeahMar 01 21:52
Atlas2070theres stuff that can be illegal if you say itMar 01 21:52
_Goblinfree speech is a great idealogy but can never work because as I said before, some people cannot be trusted to behave properly.Mar 01 21:52
Atlas2070such as treason or hate crimesMar 01 21:53
schestowitzDepending on the language, Atlas2070Mar 01 21:53
schestowitzWOrds are just some air passing through our throat reallyMar 01 21:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺@glynmoody: Major ACTA Leak: Internet and Civil Enforcement Chapters With Country Positions http://bit.ly/c44VOL great nearly out in t openMar 01 21:53
Atlas2070Canada has to relegislate it's hate crimes, they got pwned in the supreme courtMar 01 21:53
_Goblinschestowitz: with the ability to provoke emotional response.Mar 01 21:53
Atlas2070its not illegal to be racist till the laws get rewrittenMar 01 21:53
_Goblinschestowitz: mental abh does exist both in law and reality.Mar 01 21:53
schestowitzEarlier today I watched this black guy whom I like from YouTube encouraging people to just say the "N" word to eliminate "forbidden" wordsMar 01 21:54
schestowitzThen, there's the Carlin skitMar 01 21:54
_GoblinAtlas2070: incitement to cause racial hatred.Mar 01 21:54
_GoblinAtlas2070: racially aggravated sec 5 pub orderMar 01 21:54
schestowitz_Goblin: words are more insulting when people frame them like thisMar 01 21:54
schestowitzI could call you "pirate"Mar 01 21:54
schestowitzBut you'd smileMar 01 21:54
_Goblinshiver me timbersMar 01 21:54
schestowitzNot be insultedMar 01 21:54
schestowitzCause the word was cheapenedMar 01 21:54
schestowitzIf I called you a moth^H^H^H^H^H^HkerMar 01 21:55
schestowitzThat would seem tactlessMar 01 21:55
schestowitz_Goblin: fists should be bannedMar 01 21:55
schestowitzI'm not sure about wordsMar 01 21:56
Atlas2070http://blog.freedomsite.org/2010/02/national-post-internet-rendered-hate.htmlMar 01 21:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: The FreedomSite Blog: NATIONAL POST:  Internet rendered hate law 'outdated' .::. Size~: 94.84 KBMar 01 21:56
_Goblinoh how I agree....Mar 01 21:56
schestowitzIf you curse someone a lot or libel that's differentMar 01 21:56
schestowitzLike if I said, "this guy has sex with ***"Mar 01 21:56
schestowitzAnd if it's not true, then that's slanderMar 01 21:56
schestowitzWHich in the UK has broken laws anywayMar 01 21:56
schestowitzI don't know why the UK adopted worse laws than anyone else re libelMar 01 21:57
_Goblinbut as I said to you before, there are many offences which rely on perception by the victim.....i.e "A racial incident is an incident which is percieved by the Victim to be such"Mar 01 21:57
_Goblinnot an offence in itself but an aggravating factor to an existing one.Mar 01 21:58
_GoblinGod I love UK law.Mar 01 21:59
_Goblinfairest in the world (IMHO)Mar 01 21:59
MinceRlolMar 01 21:59
_Goblinmincer: I do actually mean that.....Mar 01 21:59
MinceRi wonder how a police state can be called "fair"Mar 01 22:00
_Goblinas long as it treats everyone the same then it is.Mar 01 22:00
MinceRthey can'tMar 01 22:00
_Goblinreally?Mar 01 22:00
MinceRremember, they treat those in power differentlyMar 01 22:00
_Goblinreally?  Expenses scandal?Mar 01 22:00
MinceRa police state by definition treats the police and whomever it answers to differently.Mar 01 22:00
_Goblinmincer: you are correct....the law treats offending officers far harsher than members of the public.Mar 01 22:01
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUbB_D-dYp8Mar 01 22:01
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Late Show With David Letterman   Part 1 of 3   Bill Hicks remembered with mother Mary Hicks 2009 01 30 .::. Size~: 114.55 KBMar 01 22:01
MinceR_Goblin: it also defines who's "offending"Mar 01 22:01
_Goblinmincer: true, but then without law you have a free for all.Mar 01 22:01
MinceR_Goblin: and the corrupt politicians at the top aren't the ones whose every waking moment is monitored by camerasMar 01 22:02
MinceRi'd rather have a free for allMar 01 22:02
Atlas2070sameMar 01 22:02
MinceRwhat i have now is free for a small cabal who happily oppress meMar 01 22:02
Atlas2070it lets me be free to build a castle guarded by a shark infested moatMar 01 22:02
_Goblinmincer: Could you cite any politician who has got away with it.Mar 01 22:02
MinceRand it seems to me that UK citizens have it significantly worse than i doMar 01 22:02
_Goblinmincer: I can cite many members of public who have.Mar 01 22:02
_GoblinMincer: press...sensationalism.Mar 01 22:03
MinceR_Goblin: well, there's blair with the unlawful war, right?Mar 01 22:03
_GoblinMincer: I'll back out of this one...Im biased.Mar 01 22:03
schestowitz"comScore, Inc. (comScore) is now following your tweets on Twitter. "Mar 01 22:03
schestowitzWTF?Mar 01 22:03
Atlas2070yeah i dont like the UK anymoreMar 01 22:03
_Goblina compliment?Mar 01 22:03
Atlas2070cameras everywhereMar 01 22:03
_GoblinAtlas2070: but why? Im sure you don't do anything wrong so whats the problem?Mar 01 22:04
Atlas2070they are behavior alteringMar 01 22:04
Atlas2070you censor yourselfMar 01 22:04
MinceRi've read today that there's now a law against open APsMar 01 22:04
Atlas2070ever read 1984?Mar 01 22:04
_GoblinAtlas2070: if your mother was walking down the street at night would you feel safer with or without camera's?Mar 01 22:04
_GoblinAtlas2070: yes I did.Mar 01 22:04
MinceRin the UK, that isMar 01 22:04
Atlas2070_Goblin - i'd feel indifferentMar 01 22:05
_GoblinAtlas2070: Id personally feel better...Mar 01 22:05
_GoblinAtlas2070: unfortunately its impossible to measure how much crime camera's have prevented.Mar 01 22:05
Atlas2070_Goblin - the cameras can't prevent a muggingMar 01 22:05
Atlas2070they don't have x-ray vision that uncovers masksMar 01 22:05
_GoblinAtlas2070: no but there is more of a deterent with them than without.Mar 01 22:05
Atlas2070its also a deterent for normal human behaviorMar 01 22:06
_GoblinAtlas2070: maybe not for id, but tracking of the suspect.Mar 01 22:06
Atlas2070you're not as spontanious in front of a camera you know is watching youMar 01 22:06
_GoblinAtlas2070: Im sure your normal behavior is fine....I wouldn't worry...the average person doesn't need too.Mar 01 22:06
Atlas2070its psychologicalMar 01 22:07
MinceRso it's the usual justifying total surveillance by saying 'upstanding citizens have nothing to hide'?Mar 01 22:07
_Goblintrue...I do understand what you mean.Mar 01 22:07
MinceRludicrous.Mar 01 22:07
Atlas2070what happens when the cameras start carrying microphonesMar 01 22:07
Atlas2070and swearing earns you fines on the spotMar 01 22:07
_Goblinmincer: no...thats not what i mean.Mar 01 22:07
Atlas2070ala Demolition ManMar 01 22:07
DaemonFCtoilet paper!Mar 01 22:07
Atlas2070oh you betMar 01 22:08
_Goblinmincer: what I say is that surviellance is a neccassary evil and a testament to todays society and those who cannot be trusted to behave within the law like the vast majority of the populas.Mar 01 22:08
Atlas2070environmentalism will kill off toilet paper, swearing will be the only way i'll be able to wipe my assMar 01 22:08
MinceR_Goblin: what i say that it's an unnecessary evilMar 01 22:08
MinceR_Goblin: also, you're forgetting that the state and the authorities of today's society can't be trusted.Mar 01 22:08
Atlas2070[17:01] <_Goblin> mincer: what I say is that surviellance is a neccassary evil and a testament to todays society and those who cannot be trusted to behave within the law like the vast majority of the populas.Mar 01 22:09
Atlas2070that attitude scares the shit out of meMar 01 22:09
MinceRthere are corrupt officials all over it.Mar 01 22:09
_Goblinmincer: and id agree, people like yourself and atlas et al, shouldn't be watched.  Unfortunately like everything there are people who can't be trusted and everyone else suffers.Mar 01 22:09
MinceR_Goblin: the authorities probably disagree with youMar 01 22:09
_Goblinmincer: I assure you they don't.Mar 01 22:09
Atlas2070you can't speak for the authoritiesMar 01 22:10
_GoblinRIPA policy dictates the protocols very clearly around survellance...Mar 01 22:10
Atlas2070they have think tanks that say your average joe is going to be part of riots within the next 30 yearsMar 01 22:10
MinceR_Goblin: and the people doing surveillance very freely ignore them when it suits themMar 01 22:10
_Goblinmincer: then their cases fall appart at court.Mar 01 22:10
MinceRwe're giving the least responsible people the most powerMar 01 22:11
_Goblindid you know the private citizen has more "power" in respect of covert observation?Mar 01 22:11
*jono has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Mar 01 22:11
_Goblinas an MOP you can pick up a camera and covertly film without thinking about it...Mar 01 22:11
_Goblinthe police can't.Mar 01 22:11
Atlas2070_Goblin - fall appart in court? if it reaches court. they could claim terrorism and burry it for 80 years.Mar 01 22:11
MinceRyeah, the police needs to do a little paperwork to use a loophole in lawMar 01 22:11
Atlas2070by then nobody caresMar 01 22:11
MinceRpoor policeMar 01 22:11
MinceRand they only work at a day job to monitor people...Mar 01 22:12
_Goblinmincer: not poor police, merely that the balance of power in repsect of covert surviellance is far more in favor of the MOP.Mar 01 22:12
MinceRwhat's a MOP?Mar 01 22:12
Atlas2070_Goblin - you would accept cameras in your home?Mar 01 22:12
_GoblinMincer: In the UK most CCTV is monitored by civilians....MOP = Member of public.Mar 01 22:13
_GoblinAtlas2070: Im filmed and monitored at work.Mar 01 22:13
MinceRcivilians working as rent-a-cops or civilians who have nothing better to do (such as a job)?Mar 01 22:13
Atlas2070so was I, and I made them give me a policyMar 01 22:13
_GoblinMincer: no privately contracted companies (in many cases) run by the council and independant of Police.Mar 01 22:14
MinceRis there a comma after "no"?Mar 01 22:14
_Goblinyep...sorryMar 01 22:14
MinceRand whose council is that?Mar 01 22:14
Atlas2070i've even heard of the cameras being used by criminalsMar 01 22:14
_Goblinlocal council....elected by the people.Mar 01 22:14
Atlas2070they aren't unhackableMar 01 22:14
MinceRAtlas2070: the criminals in the government or the ones outside it? :>Mar 01 22:14
Atlas2070bothMar 01 22:15
Atlas2070:DMar 01 22:15
_GoblinAtlas2070: mostly they are because of being on closed networks.Mar 01 22:15
*_goblin_ (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 22:15
_GoblinAtlas2070: Im certainly not aware of a hacked cctv case...Mar 01 22:15
_Goblinjust changing clientsMar 01 22:15
*_Goblin has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)Mar 01 22:15
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIvdshrHJx0Mar 01 22:16
_goblin_thats better.Mar 01 22:16
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Heather Has Two Mommies by Leslea Newman .::. Size~: 100.31 KBMar 01 22:16
*_goblin_ is now known as _GoblinMar 01 22:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I spent my morning helping out my brother getting started with #Mandriva . It's nice to see how easy it is to pick.Mar 01 22:16
Atlas2070you know what I love about this channelMar 01 22:16
_GoblinI can understand that people do not like CCTV...Mar 01 22:17
bruce89helloMar 01 22:17
Atlas2070everyone has their own opinions and ideasMar 01 22:17
Atlas2070:)Mar 01 22:17
Atlas2070we'll often debate, switch sides and go in different directionsMar 01 22:17
Atlas2070certain anti-bn teams all roll the same propagandaMar 01 22:17
_Goblinbut I just wish people would realize that there is no underhanded motive and its purpose it merely the prevention of crime and protection of the populas...sure its not perfect, sure it may fail, but the intent is honorable.Mar 01 22:17
Atlas2070_Goblin - would you accept CCTV in your home? there are real sexual predators out there we need to findMar 01 22:18
MinceRi just wish people would realize that there is indeed an underhanded motive (or more) in most casesMar 01 22:18
Atlas2070it would prevent child pornographyMar 01 22:18
_GoblinAtlas2070, now you are moving the goalposts into entrapment.Mar 01 22:18
Atlas2070its not at allMar 01 22:18
_GoblinAtlas2070, there is a big differenceMar 01 22:18
MinceRand the operation of governments over this planet shows that there no "honor" to itMar 01 22:18
Atlas2070CCTV arguements follow the same basisMar 01 22:18
DaemonFCAmazon is just totally evilMar 01 22:19
_GoblinAtlas2070, if a clearly marked CCTV camera sees a crime that is wholly different to encouraging one to be committed.Mar 01 22:19
Atlas2070crime prevention, when crime occurs either wayMar 01 22:19
DaemonFCgrrrrMar 01 22:19
Atlas2070there isn't one single trustworthy government on this planet whatsoeverMar 01 22:19
_Goblinand in answer to the CCTV question, no I wouldn't like one in my house, but statistically Im safer in my house than on the street (in a crime sense)Mar 01 22:20
Atlas2070there never has beenMar 01 22:20
MinceRfreedom of speech is being taken away from usMar 01 22:20
Atlas2070CCTV will end up in homesMar 01 22:20
_GoblinAtlas2070, its not the government that is untrustworthy.....its people.Mar 01 22:20
Atlas2070government is run by peopleMar 01 22:20
MinceRand so is the last chances to keep abusive governments at bayMar 01 22:20
MinceRremember the idea of "checks and balances"?Mar 01 22:20
MinceRremember the idea of "democracy"?Mar 01 22:21
_Goblinthats what I mean....its not government per say, its a human flaw that makes people untrustworthy....there are honest people in government.Mar 01 22:21
_Goblinand there are bad ones.Mar 01 22:21
_GoblinGood cops, bad cops.Mar 01 22:21
MinceRmaybe there's one or two honest people in a government of hundreds or thousands, yesMar 01 22:21
Atlas2070you cant have power in government unless you're the psychopathic typeMar 01 22:21
MinceRis it going to matter?Mar 01 22:21
_Goblinwhat we are talking about is a human flaw that makes corruption.....its nothing to do with the role....its the person.Mar 01 22:22
schestowitzThe system is peronsMar 01 22:22
_GoblinIve often said, taking responsibility for ones own actions.Mar 01 22:22
Atlas2070_Goblin - thats like saying Miguel De Icaza makes Microsoft a good organizationMar 01 22:22
_Goblinnot really....Mar 01 22:22
*schestowitz pukesMar 01 22:22
_Goblinalthough Mr De Icaza may have an honest held belief that he is doing the right thing.Mar 01 22:23
schestowitzOverload @ "caza" and "Microsoft a good organization"Mar 01 22:23
Atlas2070a few good apples out of a few hundred bad ones don't make it goodMar 01 22:23
_Goblinif that is the case, does that make him wrong, dishonest or genuine?Mar 01 22:23
Atlas2070is the pointMar 01 22:23
*schestowitz errors out with core dumpMar 01 22:23
Atlas2070Microsoft isn't good because of the few decent people who work thereMar 01 22:23
Atlas2070same with the governmentMar 01 22:23
_Goblinvery true and the same can be said of any company.Mar 01 22:23
Atlas2070yesMar 01 22:24
MinceRthere might be people who believe evil is good, but is that an excuse?Mar 01 22:24
schestowitzYesMar 01 22:24
schestowitzSome people say soMar 01 22:24
schestowitzThat "Evil" is goodMar 01 22:24
schestowitzOne of them in YouTube says it...Mar 01 22:24
_Goblinbut like I say, if you are of honest held belief does that make you "bad"?Mar 01 22:24
schestowitzCause he annoyed people before getting bannedMar 01 22:24
schestowitz"FakeSagan"Mar 01 22:24
Atlas2070yesMar 01 22:24
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schestowitzThey go there just to piss people off, they think "bad boy" is Good{TM}Mar 01 22:24
schestowitzIt's a cultural thingMar 01 22:25
Atlas2070a lot of nazi's believed they were doing the right thingMar 01 22:25
schestowitzIn the 70s you'd do drugs, now you get gunsMar 01 22:25
Atlas2070doesn't make it rightMar 01 22:25
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/01/nuclear_bunker/   Mar 01 22:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: For sale: One des res nuclear bunker • The Register .::. Size~: 20.99 KBMar 01 22:25
_GoblinAtlas2070, good example and no it doesn't make it right....Mar 01 22:25
Atlas2070hippies used to think LSD was a positive thing, they spiked their kids drinks with itMar 01 22:25
Atlas2070doesnt make it rightMar 01 22:25
_GoblinAtlas2070, but like I say can you condemn someone for having an honest held belief they are doing the right thing?Mar 01 22:25
schestowitzdependsMar 01 22:25
_GoblinCriminal law is all about intent.Mar 01 22:25
oiaohmHmm wonder if it will become anther server farm.  schestowitzMar 01 22:25
schestowitzI never did drugs, but still, it dependsMar 01 22:25
schestowitzI only did alcoholMar 01 22:26
schestowitzBut that's a legalised drugsMar 01 22:26
schestowitzIt's easier to tax and controlMar 01 22:26
Atlas2070a lot of the psychopaths at the top are into eugenics, which isn't a very friendly beliefMar 01 22:26
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0woMar 01 22:26
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Bill Hicks on Marketing .::. Size~: 111.01 KBMar 01 22:26
schestowitzI like this videoMar 01 22:26
Atlas2070Bill Hicks +1Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzIt resonates...Mar 01 22:27
_GoblinAtlas2070, psychopaths? you say that like its bad thing....Mar 01 22:27
schestowitz"But they are SOOOOOOOOOO many people in marketing"Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzSo it must be good and necessaryMar 01 22:27
Atlas2070lolMar 01 22:27
MinceR231829 < _Goblin> Criminal law is all about intent.Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzA trillion dollar/year industryMar 01 22:27
MinceRoh really?Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzWhat does it generate?Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzQuickMar 01 22:27
schestowitz3Mar 01 22:27
_GoblinAtlas2070, nothing wrong with the condition per say...Mar 01 22:27
schestowitz2Mar 01 22:27
schestowitz1Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzMinceR: yesMar 01 22:27
Atlas2070psychopaths don't have sympathyMar 01 22:27
schestowitzIn the US aloneMar 01 22:27
MinceRin the US?Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzDepends what's lumped into "marketing"Mar 01 22:27
schestowitzAnd "PR"Mar 01 22:28
Atlas2070they can pass laws that destroy lives without caring, to make a buckMar 01 22:28
MinceRso if i killed ballmer in the US and said it's to make the world a better place, would they let me go free? :>Mar 01 22:28
schestowitzit's a pseudo-jobMar 01 22:28
_GoblinAtlas2070 or compassion....but that doesn't mean it will lead onto them killing women in a shower because their mother tells them too.Mar 01 22:28
schestowitzYou can create more meta-industries like thisMar 01 22:28
schestowitzPatent lawyers......Mar 01 22:28
schestowitzTo 'help' you mange you 'IP'...Mar 01 22:28
schestowitzWHile you actually develop somethingMar 01 22:28
_GoblinMincer: no, however....Mar 01 22:28
Atlas2070_Goblin - no but they will do lots of things people would consider evilMar 01 22:28
schestowitzA friend of mine fought in KuwaitMar 01 22:29
Atlas2070_Goblin - allowing the use of Bisphenol AMar 01 22:29
schestowitzHe's hiding itMar 01 22:29
schestowitzNot proud of that nonsenseMar 01 22:29
_GoblinMincer: the reasoning behind your actions if bought by a court would have an effect on the sentence...Your guilt of the act is stated, your reasoning.....thats for the court to reason.Mar 01 22:29
_Goblinfor example...Mar 01 22:29
_Goblinthe man who steals food for his family.Mar 01 22:29
_Goblinor the man who steals food to buy drugs.Mar 01 22:29
_Goblinboth commit theftMar 01 22:29
_Goblinone is rather different to the other.Mar 01 22:30
Atlas2070both will probably see the same sentenceMar 01 22:30
_Goblinthats why we can't have umberella laws.Mar 01 22:30
DaemonFCschestowitz, I did like the Lernid program, the content of what was put in there today left something to be desiredMar 01 22:30
DaemonFCbut I could see it used for goodMar 01 22:30
_GoblinAtlas2070, couldn't answer since it would be up to the magistrates.Mar 01 22:30
_GoblinDaemonFC, I too like the Lernid program....great idea.Mar 01 22:31
MinceR_Goblin: so reasoning isn't the most important consideration -- therefore it isn't "all about intent".Mar 01 22:31
_GoblinMincer: like me example theft.Mar 01 22:31
_GoblinMincer: Sec(1) Theft Act - "To dishonestly appropriate property....." - There the intent has to be dishonest, so if I take your ipod because I believed you had given it to me, its not dishonest.....intent....I did not intend to steal, I had an honest held belief you wanted to give it away,Mar 01 22:32
_GoblinMincer: Same could be said on Murder/Manslaughter....Mar 01 22:33
_GoblinMincer: Robbery.....again requires an element of violence (with a complete theft offence)Mar 01 22:34
Atlas2070with murder theres legislation which allows the government to legally killMar 01 22:34
_GoblinMincer: Burglary 9(1)a and 9(1)b all about the time in which the intent formed.Mar 01 22:34
MinceRthe element of violence isn't intent, thoughMar 01 22:34
_Goblinno its not...Mar 01 22:35
_Goblinbut its theft + violence.Mar 01 22:35
_Goblinso without a complete theft offence there is no robbery.Mar 01 22:35
_Goblinand the intent part still needs to be complete (within the realms of the theft)Mar 01 22:35
DaemonFCheh, my mom is suing her ex husband, woohoooMar 01 22:35
DaemonFCgo mom!Mar 01 22:35
DaemonFCbastardMar 01 22:36
Atlas2070lolMar 01 22:36
_Goblinalthough this should be stressed its UK law, so I can't answer for how other countries intrepret law.Mar 01 22:36
Atlas2070i remember a case where some burglar broke into someones home, got locked in their garage for a week and sued to ownerMar 01 22:36
Atlas2070he was stuck there drinking pop and eating dog foodMar 01 22:36
MinceRAtlas2070: USA?Mar 01 22:36
Atlas2070yeahMar 01 22:36
MinceRi doubt that kind of stupid happens anywhere else :>Mar 01 22:37
Atlas2070lolMar 01 22:37
Atlas2070unlawful detainment or somethingMar 01 22:37
MinceRlolMar 01 22:37
DaemonFCAtlas2070, sweet. Did the owner apologize and offer to leave filet mignon and white wine next time?Mar 01 22:37
DaemonFCjesusMar 01 22:37
MinceRlolMar 01 22:37
MinceRDaemonFC: don't forget to also remove all doors, so he won't be able to lock himself inMar 01 22:38
MinceRunless he brings some doors with him...Mar 01 22:38
MinceRbetter to just raze the houseMar 01 22:38
MinceRif the "burglar" sneaks onto my property and builds a prison around himself, can he still sue me for unlawful detainment? :>Mar 01 22:39
Atlas2070LOLMar 01 22:39
Atlas2070heres a cool one:Mar 01 22:39
Atlas2070the ontario government sued USA for pollution a while backMar 01 22:39
schestowitztessier: downtime?Mar 01 22:39
DaemonFCreminds me of the time I was in fifth grade and the school had said to eat a good breakfast that morning cause were were taking tests, and the teacher asked me what I had to eat and I told her "coffee and orange danish". She said "Cofee!!!??? and ORANGE DANISH!?!?".....so I stand there for a few seconds looking at her and said "Well, I usually have beer and pretzels, but you know how these things can get when you're rushed..." Mar 01 22:39
DaemonFCand shruggedMar 01 22:39
DaemonFCher jaw dropped open so far....Mar 01 22:40
tessierShouldn't be. Let me see.Mar 01 22:40
_GoblinAtlas2070, are you from the UK?Mar 01 22:40
Atlas2070noMar 01 22:40
_GoblinahMar 01 22:40
MinceRAtlas2070: doesn't sound so farfetchedMar 01 22:40
Atlas2070im CanadianMar 01 22:40
_Goblinin the UK the citizens power of arrest is actually quite powerful.Mar 01 22:40
Atlas2070we have it tooMar 01 22:40
Atlas2070probably the same in all common wealth countriesMar 01 22:41
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_Goblinthe power to arrest whilst commiting....the difference being a police officer can arrest whilst committing and on suspicion of.Mar 01 22:41
Atlas2070can you get peace officer powers in the UK?Mar 01 22:42
sebsebsebschestowitz: Why do you want  to start using Konqueror ?Mar 01 22:42
_Goblinpeace officer a typo?Mar 01 22:42
sebsebsebMinceR:  DaemonFC  _Goblin   Metallica :)Mar 01 22:42
Atlas2070noMar 01 22:42
_GoblinI suppose....Mar 01 22:42
_Goblinarrest for breach of the peace?Mar 01 22:42
DaemonFC_Goblin, You can only make a citizens arrest here if the person is committing a felony, and you don't have the same protection from wrongful arrest lawsuits that the police doMar 01 22:42
Atlas2070a citizen with police like powersMar 01 22:42
DaemonFCso they're rarely ever usedMar 01 22:42
Atlas2070they can make sure the cops are doing their jobsMar 01 22:43
bruce89Community Support Officer?Mar 01 22:43
Atlas2070a cop is a peace officerMar 01 22:43
sebsebsebMinceR: Your from Hungary?  wow,  I thought you were AmericanMar 01 22:43
bruce89not here they aren'tMar 01 22:43
_Goblinbrucee89, they exercise a power of detention on suspicion which can last up to 30mins.Mar 01 22:43
MinceRsebsebseb: i'm from hungary. what made you think i was american? :)Mar 01 22:43
_Goblinbruce89, for a police officer to arrive.Mar 01 22:43
tessierproxy had a problem. fixed. I'm going to move it elsewhere soon. This is silly.Mar 01 22:43
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DaemonFC_Goblin, which could easily turn into false imprisonment hereMar 01 22:43
DaemonFCand make you a felonMar 01 22:44
_GoblinDaemonFC, true, and the difference being with police officer being thats its accepted that in order to effectively do their job, arrest may be required.Mar 01 22:44
DaemonFCI think false imprisonment is a C Felony in Indiana, punishable by up to 15 years in prisonMar 01 22:44
DaemonFCso better not risk thatMar 01 22:44
_GoblinDaemonFC, and its probably for the best, putting law enforcement into the hands of the average citizen is probably not in the best interests of fairness or accountability.Mar 01 22:45
DaemonFCsimpla A Misdemeanor Assault & Battery can even turn into a C Felony for false imprisonment if they cannot reasonably be expected to run awayMar 01 22:45
sebsebseb[21:28] <DaemonFC> looks like MS packed the browser ballot with some IE shells, Maxthon, Avant, Slim Browser, Green Browser, and of course IE 8Mar 01 22:45
sebsebseb[21:28] <DaemonFC> so IE is really listed 5 times on that ballotMar 01 22:45
DaemonFC_Goblin, exactlyMar 01 22:45
DaemonFCsebsebseb, 6 timesMar 01 22:45
sebsebsebHas anyone actsually got the ballot screen yet?Mar 01 22:46
sebsebsebI saw an advert on TV for Internet Explorer 8 earlier :(Mar 01 22:46
_GoblinDaemonFC, infact I am imagining a case where a MS shill arrests Roy on IRC for a sec5 public order because he dared to say that IE was a little dodgy. ;)Mar 01 22:46
bruce89was it the BBC news/Mar 01 22:46
Atlas2070if they include all those IE shellsMar 01 22:46
sebsebsebon Sky OneMar 01 22:46
DaemonFC_Goblin, So if I punch you in the face, it can be up to a year in jail, but if I have you cornered while doing it, it could turn into 16 yearsMar 01 22:46
sebsebsebSky 1Mar 01 22:46
Atlas2070they better include all the mozilla variantsMar 01 22:46
DaemonFCnice huh?Mar 01 22:46
Atlas2070iceweasel, k-meleon, etcMar 01 22:46
bruce89they better have EpiphanyMar 01 22:46
Atlas2070chrome, chromiumMar 01 22:46
Atlas2070konquerer for windowsMar 01 22:46
bruce89tongue in cheek incidentallyMar 01 22:47
sebsebsebDaemonFC: EC let them do fake browsers?Mar 01 22:47
sebsebsebI was hoping their woudn't be any fake onesMar 01 22:47
DaemonFCAtlas2070, They have 6 IE's, 3 Mozilla's, 1 Opera, 1 Chrome, 1 SafariMar 01 22:47
schestowitztessier: thanks!Mar 01 22:47
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1594043/clive-sinclairMar 01 22:47
phIRCe-BNcTitle:                     Clive sinclair does not use a computer - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 64.41 KBMar 01 22:47
MinceRthey also need GNU IceCat and A BrowserMar 01 22:47
_GoblinDaemonFC, thats a little different to the Uk....although abh for example carries a maximum sentence, the circumstances around it will affect the amount of time the accused does or does not serve.Mar 01 22:47
schestowitzsebsebseb: bloat/leaks (not sure about leaks though)Mar 01 22:47
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_GoblinDaemonFC, at time of sentencing aggravating factors are very important in the final result.Mar 01 22:48
schestowitzwb, ThistleWebMar 01 22:48
MinceRand all the winblows WebKit browsersMar 01 22:48
schestowitzwebkhtmlMar 01 22:48
schestowitzwith extra "Magic"Mar 01 22:48
Atlas2070aroraMar 01 22:48
sebsebsebSo people have already had the actsaul ballot screen?   I was on XP a few days or so ago on the other  computer, I got the ballot update, but no ballot screen came upMar 01 22:48
MinceRor they could just end this idiocy and just ban m$ products from the EUMar 01 22:48
ThistleWebheyMar 01 22:48
DaemonFC_Goblin, Well, Indiana says the judge can give you 1 year in jail, a $5,000 fine, a year of probation. But if he wants to use jail and probation he would have to give you 6 months in jail + 6 months probation, or he could give you 1 month in jail 11 months probationMar 01 22:49
DaemonFCand there's community service tooMar 01 22:49
schestowitzDaemonFC: your mom suing you AGAIN?:-)Mar 01 22:49
bruce89sebsebseb: it only appears if you use IEMar 01 22:49
sebsebsebAnyone got a people got ballot screen, and they got thisMar 01 22:49
sebsebseblinks?Mar 01 22:49
_Goblindaemonfc: I suppose its similar to the UK, although those penalties you describe are rarely seen here.Mar 01 22:49
sebsebsebI am very interested in thatMar 01 22:49
DaemonFCbut then again he could give you no jail, no probation, no fine, no community service, and you pay the $80 court costs and walk freeMar 01 22:49
sebsebsebbruce89: that's what I thought, maybe it detects what browser is on thereMar 01 22:50
schestowitzDaemonFC: why did you divorce your mom?Mar 01 22:50
bruce89it's called defaultMar 01 22:50
DaemonFChuh?Mar 01 22:50
sebsebsebbruce89: default?Mar 01 22:50
sebsebsebohMar 01 22:50
sebsebsebyeah I was thinking that before as wellMar 01 22:50
bruce89default meaning the standardMar 01 22:50
sebsebsebmaybe got to set IE as default brwoserMar 01 22:50
sebsebsebbefore getting the screenMar 01 22:50
DaemonFCschestowitz, she's suing Gonad The BarbarianMar 01 22:50
schestowitzDaemonFC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfYyBp4Ln2s :-)Mar 01 22:50
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Doin' Your Mom (song) .::. Size~: 106.21 KBMar 01 22:50
MinceRlolMar 01 22:50
bruce89as in what's "as standard" before you moan about the use of the wordMar 01 22:50
sebsebsebscrew MicrosoftMar 01 22:51
sebsebsebthat's one thing promoting Windows 7Mar 01 22:51
_GoblinI'd rather not.Mar 01 22:51
sebsebseb,but promoting  Internet Explorer 8 on TVMar 01 22:51
sebsebseb:(Mar 01 22:51
sebsebseb_Goblin: heh, you know what I meant  though :DMar 01 22:51
_Goblin;)Mar 01 22:51
bruce89_Goblin: damn, that's better than what I was going to sayMar 01 22:51
_GoblinIm quick tonight....Mar 01 22:52
DaemonFCit was DaemonFC in the #boycottnovell room with an MSNTV boxMar 01 22:52
DaemonFCMUAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!Mar 01 22:52
sebsebsebalso those fake browsers that use IEMar 01 22:52
sebsebsebare worse than IE itself reallyMar 01 22:52
Atlas2070lolMar 01 22:52
sebsebsebAtlas2070: @ who?Mar 01 22:52
Atlas2070"I got my new pc and I downloaded tons of porn and illegal warez.... Windows 7 - it was my idea"Mar 01 22:52
Atlas2070uMar 01 22:53
_GoblinIm starting a campaign to bring back IE6 support......I had many a laugh from IE6....lets not let good comedy die.Mar 01 22:53
_Goblinhumour is a rare thing on the net.Mar 01 22:53
sebsebseb_Goblin: What?Mar 01 22:53
DaemonFCAtlas2070, You know there was a guy that got tons of MSN TV boxes and turned them into a Linux cluster?Mar 01 22:53
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 22:53
MinceRhaving one's PC compromised isn't comedyMar 01 22:53
sebsebseb_Goblin: if your serious, what?   it really is time for IE 6 to dieMar 01 22:53
oiaohm_Goblin: IE 7 is not much better than IE6 but IE6 existance kept the focus off it.Mar 01 22:53
DaemonFC_Goblin, http://www.saveie6.com/Mar 01 22:53
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SaveIE6: Help us save the best browser around .::. Size~: 9.63 KBMar 01 22:53
sebsebsebMinceR: indeedMar 01 22:53
MinceRit really is time for IE to dieMar 01 22:53
_Goblinit is when its not yours and you have MS trying to tell you everything is ok...Mar 01 22:53
MinceRsebsebseb: there, fixed that for you.Mar 01 22:54
_Goblinits like "Carry on Computing"Mar 01 22:54
sebsebsebMinceR: fixed what for me?Mar 01 22:54
MinceRCarrion Computing?Mar 01 22:54
_Goblinno,,,,Mar 01 22:54
MinceRsebsebseb: 234615 < sebsebseb> _Goblin: if your serious, what?   it really is time for IE 6 to dieMar 01 22:54
MinceR234631 < MinceR> it really is time for IE to dieMar 01 22:54
DaemonFC_Goblin, I already signed the Save IE6 petitionMar 01 22:54
sebsebsebMinceR: ah haMar 01 22:54
_Goblinthe "Carry on" films were a series of comedies...."Carry on Constable" "Carry on Follow the Camel" etc.Mar 01 22:54
sebsebsebMinceR: your saying IE, not just one version of itMar 01 22:54
sebsebsebindeed screw IEMar 01 22:54
Atlas2070"You have been mislead by a vocal minority and are using konqueror, which is clearly an inferior web browser to IE6. Please switch to IE6 and sign our petition."Mar 01 22:54
DaemonFC"Please put in your name and info below to help us save IE6. Your name will be displayed on this website and when we have reached 50,000,000 signed names we will send the list to the boys and girls in Redmond and get them to port IE6 to more platforms.Mar 01 22:54
DaemonFCW3C will also get a copy of the list so they realize the need to change their specifications to fit IE6"Mar 01 22:54
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 22:55
_GoblinDaemonFC, good effort!Mar 01 22:55
sebsebsebapparantly IE 9 will follow web standards propelry though, uhmm I think it was someone here who put thatMar 01 22:55
_GoblinI think I might campaign to save Winmob too....had many a laugh from that.Mar 01 22:55
DaemonFCsebsebseb, I'll believe that when I see itMar 01 22:55
sebsebseb_Goblin: it's still there, it's just going to be called Windows Phone instead or whatever it was going to be calledMar 01 22:55
_Goblinprobably MS web standards "Do it our way or not at all"Mar 01 22:55
DaemonFCI refuse to believe that IE will ever function properly or adhere to W3C standardsMar 01 22:55
sebsebsebDaemonFC: indeedMar 01 22:55
sebsebsebbelive it when we see/read about itMar 01 22:56
sebsebsebIE 9 following web standards properlyMar 01 22:56
_GoblinAccording to MS, Im sure IE9 will do everything and be just great.....another "gift to the world" I don't doubtMar 01 22:56
DaemonFCmost of the standards they're beating their chest about fully supporting in IE 8 existed as of 2000 you know?Mar 01 22:56
Atlas2070http://www.saveie6.com/compare.php lolMar 01 22:56
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SaveIE6: Help us save the best browser around .::. Size~: 6.25 KBMar 01 22:56
DaemonFCIt's not like it's some great new milestone for web browsersMar 01 22:56
DaemonFCand IE 8 still has CSS bugsMar 01 22:57
DaemonFCquite a few nasty ones tooMar 01 22:57
DaemonFCeven in "strict standards mode"Mar 01 22:57
Atlas2070"Compatible with IT departments that fear changes" CheckMar 01 22:57
_GoblinWhat was IE2 like?  Why don't we campaign for that to be brought back? Can't be any worse. ;)Mar 01 22:57
DaemonFC_Goblin, I had thatMar 01 22:57
DaemonFCNCSA Mosaic with cookies and framesMar 01 22:57
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 22:57
Atlas2070oh yes it canMar 01 22:57
oiaohmThere was no IE2 _GoblinMar 01 22:57
_Goblindaemonfc: I must have.....just can't remember.Mar 01 22:57
Atlas2070yes there was IE2Mar 01 22:58
DaemonFCthere was an IE 2Mar 01 22:58
oiaohmIE started at IE 3 or 4 _GoblinMar 01 22:58
Atlas2070not trueMar 01 22:58
DaemonFCoiaohm, No, there was IE 1 tooMar 01 22:58
DaemonFCshipped with the Windows 95 Plus! PackMar 01 22:58
Atlas2070i've seen IE1 and IE2Mar 01 22:58
DaemonFCIE 2 cme with Windows NT 4Mar 01 22:58
_Goblinoiaohm, I was sort of being flippant, but I assumed that IE6 followed 5 versions of IE....then again we are talking MS common sense so I don't suppose that means anything.Mar 01 22:58
DaemonFCIE 2 was also available for download for Windows 95 usersMar 01 22:59
_GoblinYeah I assumed I had an early IE since I had 95Mar 01 22:59
MinceRwinblows 95 didn't follow 64 versions of winblows ;)Mar 01 22:59
MinceRs/64/96/Mar 01 22:59
MinceRdamn!Mar 01 22:59
_Goblinwell it should have.Mar 01 22:59
MinceRs/96/94/Mar 01 22:59
_Goblinalong with 2000 and 2000 versionsMar 01 22:59
DaemonFCIE 3 was bundled in Windows 95 OSR 2.1 (which had FAT32 and USB support), but you could get rid of it by modifying the installation setup files or by downloading IE 3 off the MS website, installing it, and then removing it with the uninstaller it addedMar 01 22:59
Atlas2070Internet Explorer 1 debuted on August 16, 1995. It was a reworked version of Spyglass Mosaic which Microsoft had licensed, like many other companies initiating browser development, from Spyglass Inc. It came with Microsoft Plus! for Windows 95 and OEM release of Windows 95.Mar 01 22:59
_Goblinmaybe it meant 2000 court cases in the first week of release?Mar 01 22:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Save IE6. There are so many reasons. http://www.saveie6.com/compare.phpMar 01 23:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SaveIE6: Help us save the best browser around .::. Size~: 6.25 KBMar 01 23:00
oiaohmIE 1 and IE 2 were basically spyglass and standard following.Mar 01 23:00
DaemonFCIE 4 and the Shell Update was bundles with Windows 98, but could also apply the shell update to 95 or NT4Mar 01 23:00
_Goblinwhatever happened to Songbird....or similar (that MS singing package thing)Mar 01 23:00
schestowitz_Goblin: http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/home/2010/03/judge-jury-and-database-searcher.htmlMar 01 23:00
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Judge, Jury and database searcher - Big Brother Watch .::. Size~: 35.83 KBMar 01 23:00
DaemonFCIE 5.01 shipped with Windows 98 SE and Windows 2000Mar 01 23:00
oiaohmIE 3 is where the hell came from.Mar 01 23:00
schestowitzSeems like a domain you masterMar 01 23:00
_Goblinschestowitz: you know I can never resist your links posted at me!!!!!Mar 01 23:01
Atlas2070I remember upgrading IE2 to IE3 on Win95 oemMar 01 23:01
DaemonFCIE 5.5 was the last IE to run on Windows 95 and NT 4, IE 6 is the last for 98/Me and Windows 2000Mar 01 23:01
Atlas2070DaemonFC - IE5 was also the last IE to run on Windows 3.11Mar 01 23:01
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_Goblinschestowitz: "...has revealed that officers regularly trawl the National Database for possible profile matches when they hit a dead-end in their investigations"Mar 01 23:01
DaemonFCAtlas2070, Yeah, I've used that too on my Windows for Workstations systemMar 01 23:01
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 23:01
_Goblinschestowitz: and what system would that be?Mar 01 23:01
DaemonFCIE for Windows 3.1 was surprisingly not as badMar 01 23:02
Atlas2070i always prefered netscape thoughMar 01 23:02
DaemonFCno ActiveX eitherMar 01 23:02
_Goblinschestowitz: how on earth does that work when the database is not present at ANY police station around the country.Mar 01 23:02
Atlas2070i used IE on 3.1 for the dialerMar 01 23:02
schestowitzhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/oct/13/humanrights.mobilephones http://www.bigbrotherwatch.org.uk/home/2010/03/tracked-through-your-mobile-phone.htmlMar 01 23:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: How mobile phones let spies see our every move |UK news |The Observer .::. Size~: 69.31 KBMar 01 23:02
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Tracked through mobile phone masts - Big Brother Watch .::. Size~: 44.57 KBMar 01 23:02
DaemonFCAtlas2070, Yeah, it brought in a TCP/IP stack and a dialerMar 01 23:02
Atlas2070yeahMar 01 23:02
DaemonFCso it was actualyl useful for somethingMar 01 23:02
Atlas2070unfortunatelyMar 01 23:02
Atlas2070the TCP/IP stack was worthless for everything elseMar 01 23:03
Atlas2070didnt work with mirc, icq or netscapeMar 01 23:03
oiaohmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Internet-explorer-usage-data.svg  Nice graphicMar 01 23:03
Atlas2070so i had to use trumpet winsockMar 01 23:03
phIRCe-BNcTitle: File:Internet-explorer-usage-data.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 34.44 KBMar 01 23:03
sebsebsebMinceR: Mainly Americans on Freenode that's whyMar 01 23:03
sebsebsebMinceR: or so it seems mainly AmericansMar 01 23:03
schestowitz_Goblin: you disagree with the major papers, even the tabloidsMar 01 23:03
_GoblinOh it gets better,,,,Mar 01 23:03
MinceRsebsebseb: icMar 01 23:03
sebsebseb_Goblin: DaemonFC  got a link about the browser ballot, saying which browsers were done?Mar 01 23:03
_Goblinthey don't even know procedure....Mar 01 23:03
*gargoyle-grin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)Mar 01 23:03
_GoblinQuote "there is some glitch in the database that made a false match to my DNA profile and that brings me into the frame of a criminal investigation which has very serious repercussions."Mar 01 23:03
bruce89sebsebseb: how can you assert that?Mar 01 23:03
_Gobliner no....Mar 01 23:03
_GoblinDNA is retaken as matter of procedure in those cases.Mar 01 23:04
schestowitzoiaohm: I can't see which data gets used thereMar 01 23:04
_Goblinand if the defence doesn't check that than the accused legal rep is worthless...thats basics.Mar 01 23:04
sebsebsebif it really is six lots of IEMar 01 23:04
sebsebseb:(Mar 01 23:04
sebsebseband grr at the European Commision for allowing thatMar 01 23:04
DaemonFCsebsebseb, http://www.browserchoice.eu/BrowserChoice/browserchoice_en.htmMar 01 23:04
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phIRCe-BNcTitle: Information Regarding Web Browsers .::. Size~: 11.38 KBMar 01 23:04
DaemonFCit randomizes every time you reloadMar 01 23:05
sebsebsebTV adverts make me annoyed these days at timesMar 01 23:05
schestowitzEU commission.. ha!Mar 01 23:05
_GoblinQuote "Which is probably why Lee Wyatt from Dereham (right), who was arrested and charged with assault but cleared of any wrongdoing in his local court,"Mar 01 23:05
schestowitzThey make Windows-only streamsMar 01 23:05
sebsebsebfor example earlier when I saw Internet Explorer 8 advertMar 01 23:05
_Goblinhow was he cleared?Mar 01 23:05
_Goblindid the victim retract?Mar 01 23:05
sebsebseband then it came back on rather soon after, or a similar oneMar 01 23:05
_Goblinno finding of guilt?Mar 01 23:05
_Goblinwhat on earth does that have to do with DNA?Mar 01 23:05
schestowitzIt says.........Mar 01 23:05
schestowitz"DNA... something something... DNA"Mar 01 23:06
_Goblinand what force charges a person without re-taking DNA on a positive hit.Mar 01 23:06
MinceRsomething something something dark sideMar 01 23:06
_Goblinthats probably why the case was lost.Mar 01 23:06
Atlas2070lolMar 01 23:06
_Goblinfailure to follow procedure.Mar 01 23:06
Atlas2070mincer +1Mar 01 23:06
schestowitzhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1254126/Pub-landlord-Nick-Hogan-given-smoking-ban-jail-sentence.htmlMar 01 23:06
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Pub landlord Nick Hogan given first smoking ban jail sentence  | Mail Online .::. Size~: 59.36 KBMar 01 23:06
_GoblinI'd love to hear what system Police officers are using to interogate the DNA database....you can't even go on such an exercise on the PNC (which police officers do have access to)Mar 01 23:07
sebsebsebthis browser ballot screen,  would of made me feel proud to be European, if  it didn't have six lots of IE :(  in fact IE shoudn't of been mentioned on it at allMar 01 23:07
Atlas2070the daily mail is borderline tabloidMar 01 23:07
sebsebsebabout to go on that linkMar 01 23:07
oiaohmNet Applications schestowitz.  Ok its MS postitive but they are still going backwards.Mar 01 23:07
DaemonFCbbiabMar 01 23:07
schestowitzoiaohm: that's what I thoughtMar 01 23:08
bruce89Atlas2070: borderline?Mar 01 23:08
schestowitzTell me when NetApp isn't cha-chinging on Microsoft cash anymoreMar 01 23:08
bruce89the Daily Mail supported Hitler, need I say more?Mar 01 23:08
Atlas2070bruce89 - poking fun of schestowitz - i've linked them tooMar 01 23:08
schestowitzbruce89: page 3 is not a tabloidMar 01 23:08
schestowitzIt's just sort pr0nMar 01 23:08
*vermilionnnn (~stephen@cpc3-linl7-0-0-cust201.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com) has joined #boycottnovellMar 01 23:08
bruce89that's the SunMar 01 23:08
schestowitzYeah, oopsMar 01 23:09
schestowitzWhere was my mind,..Mar 01 23:09
bruce89in page 3?Mar 01 23:09
Atlas2070george bush's grandfather supported hitler tooMar 01 23:09
schestowitzHeh.Mar 01 23:09
sebsebsebbruce89: Sky One had Internet Explorer 8 advertMar 01 23:09
sebsebsebearlierMar 01 23:09
sebsebsebthat's Rupert MurdochMar 01 23:09
bruce89sebsebseb: I know, I heard you earlierMar 01 23:09
schestowitzThe Sun is a naked chick with some news 'around' hereMar 01 23:09
schestowitz*herMar 01 23:09
schestowitzFar enough from kids' eyesMar 01 23:09
schestowitzOne sheetMar 01 23:09
bruce89I wouldn't go as far as to say "news"Mar 01 23:09
schestowitzfilling?Mar 01 23:10
_Goblinschestowitz: Big brother watch....Im sorry that is total lies...its playing to an audience convinced we live in some sort of scifi big brother state.Mar 01 23:10
bruce89hate-filled garbageMar 01 23:10
Atlas2070_Goblin - you do live in such a stateMar 01 23:10
schestowitzbruce89: recyclable garbage at leastMar 01 23:10
schestowitz_Goblin: not in his mindMar 01 23:11
bruce89trueMar 01 23:11
schestowitzNot his state of mindMar 01 23:11
_Goblinlol...Mar 01 23:11
schestowitzHe works in the system :-pMar 01 23:11
schestowitz'the' systemMar 01 23:11
schestowitz'the' communityMar 01 23:11
schestowitz'the' Linux communityMar 01 23:11
_Goblinschestowitz: ok but I don't blindly follow and there are many parts which I believe need improvement/change.Mar 01 23:12
schestowitz'the' Atheist communityMar 01 23:12
schestowitzIt's funny how people try to group peopleMar 01 23:12
schestowitz'the' Black peopleMar 01 23:12
_Goblinthats a MOP term.Mar 01 23:12
Atlas2070loaded termsMar 01 23:12
_GoblinI'd certainly never use that grouping.Mar 01 23:12
Atlas2070labels are the best way to supress informationMar 01 23:12
schestowitzOr cull out opinionsMar 01 23:12
Atlas2070dont listen to him hes a "conspiracy theorist"Mar 01 23:13
schestowitzSweeping statementsMar 01 23:13
_GoblinI recognise all people as different...there is no group except maybe that of humankind.Mar 01 23:13
DaemonFCAfrican American is even worseMar 01 23:13
schestowitzAtlas2070: Bush was oneMar 01 23:13
DaemonFCit makes you a presumptuous politically correct asswipeMar 01 23:13
Atlas2070yeahMar 01 23:13
schestowitzHe and Blair conspired against Saddam since 2002Mar 01 23:13
schestowitzThey had a theoryMar 01 23:13
Atlas2070yeah exactlyMar 01 23:13
schestowitzThat he had WoMDMar 01 23:13
schestowitzTheir theory sucked nukesMar 01 23:14
Atlas2070conspiracy theorists in other areas had better evidence than they didMar 01 23:14
DaemonFCAtlas2070, You know that if a white person from Africa moved here they'd be an African American but not black, try explaining that to the liberalsMar 01 23:14
DaemonFCand if they moved to the UK, you can't call them an African AmericanMar 01 23:14
DaemonFCthey're BritishMar 01 23:14
DaemonFCright?Mar 01 23:14
_GoblinYou see whilst I may be involved in the system, I have displayed a respect for all religions and beliefs...unlike some members here...so maybe the "system" is not all that bad afterall?Mar 01 23:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: I have a video for youMar 01 23:14
bruce89well, they thought Iraq had them because we sold themMar 01 23:14
vermilionnnnwhen people share a certain trait ie 'lack of belief' in a god, then they are athiestsMar 01 23:14
Atlas2070DaemonFC - the liberals have enough problems, like being manipulated by communistsMar 01 23:14
vermilionnnnlabelling is only a problem when the label becomes taken to mean other than the absolute context ie 'Linux users are fat and have no life'Mar 01 23:14
DaemonFCso the whole stupid fucking scheme falls apartMar 01 23:14
DaemonFCI don't call them African Americans and it has nothing to do with racismMar 01 23:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: learn history: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzvs2zlGWAcMar 01 23:15
DaemonFCAfrican American is a dumb way to describe themMar 01 23:15
phIRCe-BNcTitle: YouTube- Race Rant .::. Size~: 143.13 KBMar 01 23:15
DaemonFCblack is more accurate if you're trying to refer to black peopleMar 01 23:15
_GoblinDaemonfc: but to be fair, you made some rather hurtful remarks about the Muslim community.Mar 01 23:15
DaemonFCMuslim isn't a raceMar 01 23:15
schestowitzMade?Mar 01 23:15
Atlas2070not all black people are from africa eitherMar 01 23:15
schestowitzhe still makes themMar 01 23:15
Atlas2070its racist to say they doMar 01 23:16
schestowitzDaemonFC: trueMar 01 23:16
DaemonFCso I made no racist remarks about MuslimsMar 01 23:16
DaemonFCat allMar 01 23:16
_GoblinDaemonFC, really>Mar 01 23:16
schestowitzReligions are not to be criticisedMar 01 23:16
schestowitzJust footballs teams, politicians, etc.Mar 01 23:16
schestowitzThey created new lawsMar 01 23:16
_GoblinDaemonFC, we didn't have a conversation where you suggested that people of the Muslim faith encouraged violence....you didn't offend Omar?Mar 01 23:16
schestowitzTo defend superstition, IMHOMar 01 23:16
DaemonFCI did not make any racist comments about OmarMar 01 23:16
DaemonFCI may have hurt his religious feelingsMar 01 23:17
schestowitzApparently it's hard to control ancient mythology without some laws on topMar 01 23:17
_Goblindaemonfc: and that was the point....hurtful comments towards someones faith (in this case Muslim)Mar 01 23:17
schestowitzIs religion different from other topics?Mar 01 23:17
schestowitzAnd if so, why?Mar 01 23:17
Atlas2070_Goblin - faith can be many thingsMar 01 23:17
DaemonFCI'm sorry that religious people feel hurt when I say I think their religion is stupid and hateful and wrongMar 01 23:17
DaemonFCI'm not sorry that those are my opinionsMar 01 23:18
schestowitzI can tell you you distro is the bull's droppingsMar 01 23:18
schestowitzWhich maybe it isMar 01 23:18
_Goblinas I say, If Im part of the system and display a respect for all faiths and beliefs surely it can't be that bad, as it appears people who are not involved in the system are the ones making the hurtful remarks.Mar 01 23:18
sebsebsebgood they got K-Meleon :) however Seamonkey should also be part of the ballotMar 01 23:18
schestowitzDaemonFC: I guess politeness is where you got it all wrongMar 01 23:18
schestowitzLike when you get all antsyMar 01 23:18
schestowitzAnd hatefulMar 01 23:18
DaemonFCschestowitz, sureMar 01 23:18
bruce89seems rather stupid and hateful and wrong to say that things are stupid hateful and wrongMar 01 23:18
_Goblinhere here.Mar 01 23:19
vermilionnnnQuran 9.29 "Fight those who  believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... "Mar 01 23:19
Atlas2070well i've seen people here do the same thingMar 01 23:19
schestowitzHeheMar 01 23:19
vermilionnnnthat isn't inciting violence?Mar 01 23:19
Atlas2070DaemonFC isn't the only one guiltyMar 01 23:19
schestowitzvermilionnnn: "slay them before me" --JesusMar 01 23:19
sebsebsebthose fake browsers, if we like it or not, are really browsers, even though they use IEMar 01 23:19
DaemonFCwell I think that bruce89 is being stupid and hateful and wrong for criticizing my opinion that certain people are stupid and hateful and wrongMar 01 23:19
schestowitzMaybe not exact quoteMar 01 23:19
DaemonFCnow who's stupid and hateful and wrong?Mar 01 23:19
sebsebsebanyway getting people using Desktop Linux is a big winMar 01 23:19
bruce89mm, I thought about thatMar 01 23:19
Atlas2070climate change skeptics being called deniers, as if they are anti semetic tooMar 01 23:19
schestowitzAnyway, probably from AramaicMar 01 23:19
sebsebsebthen they can't just use fake browsers, and other crapware :)Mar 01 23:19
schestowitzHow can people several generations later make direct quotes?Mar 01 23:20
sebsebsebplus their computers will become more secureMar 01 23:20
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Maxthon is actually a lot better than IE btw, in the sense that it has lots of fatures that IE doesn't like AdblockMar 01 23:20
DaemonFCbut the engine is still crapMar 01 23:20
sebsebsebDaemonFC: yeah Maxthon is pretty popularMar 01 23:20
schestowitzAtlas2070: I'm a WIndows  denierMar 01 23:20
schestowitzSo what?Mar 01 23:20
schestowitzIt's just connotation gamesMar 01 23:20
schestowitzLike the "N" word Mar 01 23:20
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Maxthon 1 let you choose GeckoMar 01 23:21
Atlas2070denier references the nazi'sMar 01 23:21
Atlas2070godwin's lawMar 01 23:21
Atlas2070you lose automaticallyMar 01 23:21
schestowitzI knowMar 01 23:21
sebsebsebDaemonFC: oh, well most users won't do thatMar 01 23:21
sebsebsebDaemonFC: also I think  I remember something from the past, when you put thatMar 01 23:21
sebsebsebthey are lacking Seamonkey :(Mar 01 23:21
DaemonFCIE frontends shouldn't be allowed on those ballot pages thoughMar 01 23:21
DaemonFCit's just a mask over MSIEMar 01 23:21
sebsebsebalso  the link I gave, says nothing about why  they are doing the screen,  plus the more info links and downloadMar 01 23:21
sebsebsebwell go to the Micrsooft siteMar 01 23:21
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Seamonkey is kind of datedMar 01 23:22
sebsebsebDaemonFC: yep exactly the "frake browsers" shoudn't be alloweed on the ballotMar 01 23:22
sebsebsebDaemonFC: they are still keeping Seamonkey up to dateMar 01 23:22
sebsebsebwhat would they put about Seamonkey?Mar 01 23:22
DaemonFCyeah, the rendering engine is current, the suite is old and not getting features like it used toMar 01 23:22
schestowitz"eduvid: have a look at my half backed article - http://docs.google.com/View?id=dhtsnnph_56gxm7gvdm , will publish it soon"Mar 01 23:22
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Right to Software .::. Size~: 18.02 KBMar 01 23:22
sebsebsebit exists, since  we  nearly killed Netscape Navigatour years agoMar 01 23:22
sebsebsebtheir Mozilla Suite didn't work out, so they make SeamonkeyMar 01 23:23
sebsebsebDaemonFC: it should still be part of the ballot screen reallyMar 01 23:23
DaemonFCsebsebseb, There's a leaked Netscape 5 out there that uses a very very early Gecko (from before Mozilla even went up)Mar 01 23:23
DaemonFC:DMar 01 23:23
sebsebsebDaemonFC: also K-Meleon's Gecko is quite a bit behind Firefox's useually, but that's stil part of the ballotMar 01 23:23
DaemonFCit doesn't do much other than let you browse a few pages and crashMar 01 23:23
bruce89religious fundamentalism, then browser fundamentalismMar 01 23:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @eduvid holler when it's publishedMar 01 23:24
DaemonFCYeah, Kmeleon's is Gecko 1.8.1 from Firefox 3.0Mar 01 23:24
sebsebsebDaemonFC: anyway the fake browsers get mentioned towards the end, acording to the pageMar 01 23:24
DaemonFCthey haven't merged in agesMar 01 23:24
DaemonFCsebsebseb, Yeah, most users won't pick themMar 01 23:24
sebsebsebDaemonFC: IE 8 shoudn't really be part of the ballot, on the other hand, if it is,  well  people know what Internet Explorer isMar 01 23:24
sebsebsebDaemonFC: or they think they doMar 01 23:24
DaemonFCthey never get cycled into the top 5Mar 01 23:24
sebsebsebthat program that goes on to the webMar 01 23:25
sebsebsebInternet as they would sayMar 01 23:25
schestowitz"Save IE6 http://www.saveie6.com/index.php (via @schestowitz) << How could I have missed this? Laughing so hard I'm coughing out a lung." http://identi.ca/notice/23452517Mar 01 23:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: SaveIE6: Help us save the best browser around .::. Size~: 9.53 KBMar 01 23:25
sebsebsebsome might figure it out, that other programs can be used instead, after seeing the ballot screenMar 01 23:25
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Walt Hucks (lnxwalt) 's status on Monday, 01-Mar-10 23:05:41 UTC - Identi.ca .::. Size~: 8.93 KBMar 01 23:25
DaemonFCI think this will bring global use of Firefox and Chrome up a bitMar 01 23:25
DaemonFCthat's somethingMar 01 23:25
sebsebsebDaemonFC: global?Mar 01 23:25
sebsebsebwell ballot scren is only EuropeMar 01 23:25
sebsebseb,but  browser market share is global yesMar 01 23:25
DaemonFCwhen you look at the global statesMar 01 23:26
DaemonFC*statsMar 01 23:26
DaemonFClike most news outfits doMar 01 23:26
DaemonFCif the ballot box drives Firefox, Chrome, and Opera up at IE's expense, it's a gain for the global states against IEMar 01 23:26
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 23:26
DaemonFC*statsMar 01 23:26
DaemonFCuggghMar 01 23:26
sebsebsebDaemonFC: Opera is good toMar 01 23:26
sebsebseb,but they hardly have any market shareMar 01 23:26
DaemonFCwell, I expect to see IE lose a little more than the monthly quota for at least several monthsMar 01 23:27
sebsebsebif they had done chromium as well they could of mentioned open source :DMar 01 23:27
DaemonFCIE typically loses a half a point a month or soMar 01 23:27
sebsebsebchromeium is going to end up the browser quite a lot of Desktop Linux users useMar 01 23:27
sebsebseb,but  Windows users will use ChromeMar 01 23:27
sebsebsebnot chromium most of themMar 01 23:27
DaemonFCI don't care much where IE's loss goes as long as it losesMar 01 23:27
_GoblinI think the whole IE ballot issue is pointless...people have been discovering the advantages of alternatives without a MS led ballot.Mar 01 23:27
sebsebsebthat will use Chrome or chromeiumMar 01 23:27
sebsebsebso in a way chromium will be like IceweaselMar 01 23:28
schestowitzhttp://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2010/03/01/report-rupert-murdoch-ready-to-sue-google Microsoft -----> Murdoch Mar 01 23:28
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Report: Rupert Murdoch "Ready To Sue" Google | WebProNews .::. Size~: 34.15 KBMar 01 23:28
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dear chiropractors: eat shit. http://is.gd/9u4IlMar 01 23:28
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Furious backlash from Simon Singh libel case puts chiropractors on ropes | Martin Robbins |Science |guardian.co.uk .::. Size~: 105.21 KBMar 01 23:28
DaemonFCsebsebseb, it will expose new users to new browsers (to them)Mar 01 23:28
sebsebsebDesktop GNU/Linux users doing Chromium, but the others ChromeMar 01 23:28
DaemonFCit's at least a very small net win for non-IE browsersMar 01 23:28
sebsebsebas for Iceweasel who runs that, that isn't  using Debian?Mar 01 23:28
_GoblinI think the ballot scheme merely muddies the waters...FF has seen an increase through word of mouth and the fact that it actually is better....Mar 01 23:28
Atlas2070i love chromiumMar 01 23:28
DaemonFCthat gets lumped in with FirefoxMar 01 23:29
sebsebsebwhen is Iceweasel used when  not running on Debian?Mar 01 23:29
_GoblinAtlas2070, and so do IMar 01 23:29
_GoblinAtlas2070, we have both made our choices without any MS ballot screen.Mar 01 23:29
sebsebseb_Goblin: what you mean muddies the water?Mar 01 23:29
DaemonFCAtlas2070, Love not having a real adblock and using element hiders posing as adblock?Mar 01 23:29
DaemonFC:)Mar 01 23:29
sebsebseb_Goblin: eventaully will get proper word of mouth for Ubuntu as wellMar 01 23:29
_Goblinsebsebseb, it confuses the issue by throwing even more options at a user.Mar 01 23:29
oiaohmSome releations of debian as well like knoppix and othere have iceweasel sebsebsebMar 01 23:29
sebsebseb_Goblin: Firefox started getting used properly in 2004 and here we are in 2010Mar 01 23:29
oiaohmReally the ballet screen is good.Mar 01 23:29
sebsebseband well it's come along way since then, marketsharewiseMar 01 23:30
Atlas2070DemonFC - I have adsweeperMar 01 23:30
oiaohmThere are a lot of users out there who don't know other browsers exist.Mar 01 23:30
DaemonFCthat's just a hiderMar 01 23:30
DaemonFCChrome doesn't support blocking Mar 01 23:30
_Goblinsebsebseb, I see the browser choice as a progressive one, users discover with say ff that its better than IE, after a while they look again to see if they can further better their browsing experience.Mar 01 23:30
sebsebseb_Goblin: well some will ask their friends, if they got the screen as well?Mar 01 23:30
DaemonFCit will apparently at a later dateMar 01 23:30
sebsebseb_Goblin: and  maybe one of those friends knows what a browser is and bangMar 01 23:30
bruce89we need to make one browser have a monopolyMar 01 23:30
Atlas2070arora is another good choice tooMar 01 23:30
bruce89oh now, hang onMar 01 23:30
Atlas2070webkit, plus adblock and flashclick built inMar 01 23:30
_Goblinsebsebseb, but look at the take up of FF and others to date without it.Mar 01 23:30
sebsebseb_Goblin: also I was some where last week,  computers got briefly mentioned,  one guy was using Open Office, that same guy  recommended some woman got FirefoxMar 01 23:31
_Goblinsebsebseb, I get the feeling that merely presenting unitiated users with a ballot will only having them selecting what they know anyway (IE)Mar 01 23:31
sebsebseb_Goblin: quite a lot will probably just continue to use IE yeahMar 01 23:31
sebsebseb,but at the same timeMar 01 23:31
sebsebsebquite a lot will try others,  or at least, if their friends or family and such, are using it?Mar 01 23:32
sebsebsebsome will have probably heard about FIrefox, and not been sure about it, untill the screenMar 01 23:32
sebsebseband then will try Firefox as a result of the screenMar 01 23:32
_Goblinsebsebseb, and remember that a browser change will most likely come as a result of surfing already with IE and someone saying "Hey have you seen FF?"Mar 01 23:32
vermilionnnnbut at least some will consider the option, or even google the alternativesMar 01 23:32
vermilionnnnI found out about esperanto that way, from the Ubuntu live CDMar 01 23:32
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: what's esperanto?Mar 01 23:32
_Goblinsebsebseb, how many completely new users do you know would be swayed away from a known title like IE to try an alternative on the basis of a ballot alone?Mar 01 23:33
vermilionnnnan international language :)Mar 01 23:33
_Goblinsebsebseb, as I say, pointless.Mar 01 23:33
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: Chrome is mentionedMar 01 23:33
sebsebseb"Google"Mar 01 23:33
vermilionnnn_Goblin: how many users are completely new users?Mar 01 23:33
sebsebsebmost average web users like "Google"Mar 01 23:33
_Goblinvermilionnnn, exactly...and if they don't know about the benefits of FF how is a ballot going to convince them to change from IE?Mar 01 23:34
_Goblinvermilionnnn, are they going to take a gamble or simply go with what they know?Mar 01 23:34
_Goblinvermilionnnn, if they go on a recommendation of say FF that is going to be because of a friend or word of mouth, not a ballot screen.Mar 01 23:35
_Goblinvermilionnnn, it would be frightening to think that anyone could be swayed away from what they know on the basis of a ballot.Mar 01 23:35
vermilionnnnmost would stick, but some may change?Mar 01 23:35
vermilionnnnI agree that most users would hear about Firefox through friends and family etc.Mar 01 23:35
vermilionnnnhaha, curiosity?Mar 01 23:35
_Goblinvermilionnnn, when you are paying for Windows on your new computer? I wouldn't think so.Mar 01 23:36
_Goblinvermilionnnn, I think most users know that curiosity and Windows don't mix or make for a stable system.Mar 01 23:36
bruce89no, for example I didn't change my mind as to which party to vote for once I saw the sheetMar 01 23:36
bruce89unless I voted wronglyMar 01 23:37
_Goblinbruce89, exactly..its the same principle...good example, I didn't think of that.Mar 01 23:37
sebsebsebwell ballot screen will gain some usersMar 01 23:37
bruce89"Senior Citizen's Party", oh, I never heard of them, I think I'll vote for theMar 01 23:37
sebsebsebto better browsersMar 01 23:37
sebsebseb:)Mar 01 23:37
_Goblinall the balot does is simplifies the install of your browser of choice, in that you don't have to physically find and download/install yourself.Mar 01 23:37
sebsebseb_Goblin: well no if it's IE 8Mar 01 23:38
sebsebseb_Goblin: since that's already thereMar 01 23:38
sebsebsebunless  using older version of IEMar 01 23:38
vermilionnnnbut with elections we've been barraged with information (hopefully enough to make an informed choice)Mar 01 23:38
_GoblinI bet MS were laughing their A&&'s off at the ballot sanction of the EU....Mar 01 23:38
bruce89I think there should be a text editor ballot screenMar 01 23:38
sebsebseb_Goblin: Maybe so hence the "fake browsers" as part of it?Mar 01 23:38
bruce89[vi] [emacs] [nano] etc.Mar 01 23:39
vermilionnnnthen we get to an advanced version of synaptic? :)Mar 01 23:39
MinceRi think m$ should be banned from selling their productsMar 01 23:39
MinceReverywhereMar 01 23:39
*schestowitz agreesMar 01 23:39
sebsebseb_Goblin: Silly EC for allowing the "fake browsers"Mar 01 23:39
schestowitzThey committed crimesMar 01 23:39
sebsebsebyeah boycottmicrosoft :DMar 01 23:39
MinceRall their code should forcibly be released into the public domain and m$ should be closed and its leaders prosecuted.Mar 01 23:40
bruce89sebsebseb: just go to #eu and tell themMar 01 23:40
schestowitzThis is akin to someone robbing a store and then you ask him to share some of the money with the victimsMar 01 23:40
sebsebsebin fact there have been some recent articlesMar 01 23:40
_Goblinmincer: although that in itself defeats "freedom"Mar 01 23:40
sebsebsebwhat would computing be like without MicrosoftMar 01 23:40
schestowitzBut Microsoft is above the law, so...Mar 01 23:40
MinceR_Goblin: m$ in itself defeats our freedomMar 01 23:40
sebsebsebbruce89: there's a channel on here?Mar 01 23:40
_Goblinmincer: you are free to be ripped off, just as much as you are to be free of lockin.Mar 01 23:40
MinceR_Goblin: and the people have the right to defend themselves.Mar 01 23:40
bruce89sebsebseb: there will beMar 01 23:40
MinceR_Goblin: in a sane society, m$ headquarters would have been burned long agoMar 01 23:40
schestowitzNoMar 01 23:40
MinceR_Goblin: and gates and ballmer and their gang would have been lynchedMar 01 23:40
schestowitzWaste of buildingsMar 01 23:40
sebsebsebit's 2010 not the 90's anymoreMar 01 23:41
schestowitzExile and rehabMar 01 23:41
MinceR_Goblin: instead, jesusland shows them off as role models.Mar 01 23:41
sebsebsebthe 90's where Microsoft had some alright products for the time, Encarta for example?Mar 01 23:41
schestowitzPut some KDE devs in (formerly) MS HQMar 01 23:41
schestowitzGive them a nice campusMar 01 23:41
MinceRa nice campus with m$ logos everywhere?Mar 01 23:41
schestowitzhttp://rawstory.com/2010/03/gop-senators-hold-puts-2000-federal-employees-work/ Mar 01 23:41
phIRCe-BNcTitle: GOP senators hold puts 2,000 federal employees out of work |  Raw Story .::. Size~: 52.41 KBMar 01 23:41
schestowitzThey can rename to KDE MSMar 01 23:41
schestowitzNot SCMar 01 23:41
sebsebsebMicrosoft have kept computing back about 10 years or moreMar 01 23:42
schestowitzKDE multi-platform softwareMar 01 23:42
sebsebsebif opensource/freesoftware took over the desktop as well,  computing would be wow todayMar 01 23:42
schestowitzNot software compilationMar 01 23:42
schestowitzNow it's clear just how close roughlydrafted is to Apple http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2010/02/26/special-report-why-i-cant-report-on-the-apple-shareholder-meeting/ "Thanks! Also, special thanks for the readers who helped me get back and forth to the event at Apple, to Steve Jobs and Tim Cook for answering my questions, and all the people playing supporting roles at Apple, who handled the event without being too excessive about the Mar 01 23:42
schestowitzwhole “you blog, therefore you belong in the overflow room with the professional media who are not shareholders” thing."Mar 01 23:42
schestowitzSellout...Mar 01 23:42
_GoblinI have been here over 1 year and a half, I don't think anyone can argue that I have no loyalities to any company (especially MS) I cannot be bribed or bought and I say what I think...however, I sometimes think that the free software community can be just as guilty as MS with an ethos of "Do it our way or not at all"...software freedom for me is just that, choosing whatever I want.  I have a mix of free and proprietary and thats Mar 01 23:42
_Goblinfine...I think in an effort to highlight bad MS behaviour some often forget that its freedom we should champion, freedom of choice, whatever that choice is.Mar 01 23:42
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBMar 01 23:43
schestowitz_Goblin: there are market rulesMar 01 23:43
schestowitzNot the BS from School of CHicagaMar 01 23:43
sebsebsebindeed at _GoblinMar 01 23:43
_Goblintrue and when they are broken they should be highlighted.Mar 01 23:43
bruce89_Goblin: thanksMar 01 23:43
schestowitzDoes Microsoft have free choice to remove competitorsMar 01 23:43
MinceR_Goblin: m$ violates our freedom and has publicly shown many times that they don't respect itMar 01 23:43
schestowitzTo tell Murdoch to sue Google?Mar 01 23:43
MinceR_Goblin: therefore m$ deserves no freedomMar 01 23:43
schestowitzTo extort Linux users?Mar 01 23:43
_Goblinmincer: and of course it should be challenged.Mar 01 23:43
schestowitzTo bribe managers?Mar 01 23:44
schestowitzThat's not my definition of freedomMar 01 23:44
sebsebseb_Goblin:it's our choice, to use the software we choose to use.  Thing is most users don't make educated choices when it comes to computer software, because they use what is given to them.  so yeah Microsoft for exampleMar 01 23:44
vermilionnnnone should not have the freedom to remove the freedom of othersMar 01 23:44
sebsebseb_Goblin: people don't know about alternatives, they just use what is given to them, most of them, when it comes to softwareMar 01 23:44
_Goblinmincer: the point I am making, is the end-user choice.  The politics and underhanded tactics should be exposed, if users still choose say IE6 over FF then fine.  Thats free choice.Mar 01 23:44
schestowitzsebsebseb: tell this to OEMsMar 01 23:44
schestowitzThey have no choiceMar 01 23:44
schestowitzMicrosoft thretaens to "whack" themMar 01 23:44
MinceR_Goblin: it was never up to "end-user choice"Mar 01 23:45
sebsebseb_Goblin: or use what they think "everyone" else uses so yeah Windows, Microsoft OfficeMar 01 23:45
schestowitzAnd people are too busy with work to know Microsoft's many crimesMar 01 23:45
schestowitzSo they go to OEMMar 01 23:45
Atlas2070_Goblin - I agree with you to a point. I prefer using only open source but i'll go with proprietary if I have no choice.Mar 01 23:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: yes it's the OEM's fault, but not only their faultMar 01 23:45
MinceR_Goblin: m$ started their oppression of the industry with a dirty deal with IBM over stolen code.Mar 01 23:45
schestowitzOEM forces them to get WIndoiws, under Microsoft's (shot)gunpointMar 01 23:45
schestowitzIs THIS freedom?Mar 01 23:45
MinceR_Goblin: smaller criminals tend to be prosecuted and punished. m$ is let go free.Mar 01 23:45
schestowitzFreedom to choose?Mar 01 23:45
schestowitzIE only?Mar 01 23:45
schestowitzMS .doc, .xls?Mar 01 23:45
schestowitzFreedom?Mar 01 23:45
sebsebsebschestowitz: exactly people have other interests,  and so on.  So they don't know much about computers, most users.Mar 01 23:45
MinceR_Goblin: and you seem to say that m$ shouldn't be punished so you have the freedom to have yourself screwed by them?Mar 01 23:45
bruce89freedom is slaveryMar 01 23:46
_Goblinsebsebseb, and thats why we are here...all we can do is give our experiences of better alternatives....if users still choose Microsoft products even after learning about MS actions, then fine....if we become agressive or force them down the free software route then we become as guilty as MS.Mar 01 23:46
vermilionnnnwar is peaceMar 01 23:46
Atlas2070_Goblin - even if im forced to use a few proprietary apps, ill never recommend them to anyoneMar 01 23:46
bruce89ignorance is truthMar 01 23:46
MinceRignorance is strengthMar 01 23:46
bruce89oopsMar 01 23:46
bruce89ignorance is blissMar 01 23:46
DaemonFCignorance is blissMar 01 23:46
DaemonFCdammitMar 01 23:46
bruce89it's been too long since I read itMar 01 23:46
Atlas2070yeahMar 01 23:46
Atlas2070might want to pickup "Brave New World" tooMar 01 23:46
Atlas2070later, i gtgMar 01 23:47
sebsebsebignorance really is not bliss, when it comes to Internet connected Windows computing,   "it's not a good thing" to have a Windows computer being taken over by criminals, with that user being to ignorant to knowMar 01 23:47
bruce89well, I don't think Eric thought of thatMar 01 23:47
*Atlas2070 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Mar 01 23:47
_GoblinMincer: in respect of MS punishment, I think they should be.  Many times over for what they have been up to.  I think though after all that and if the end user is made aware AND they still choose MS, we have to leave it there....doing anything else makes us like MS and that which we know is so wrong.Mar 01 23:47
bruce89considering it was written in 1948...Mar 01 23:47
schestowitztessier: is the server OK?Mar 01 23:48
sebsebsebin a way people shoudn't have their own home  computer with Internet access, untill they have passed some sort of,  how to secure Windows properly test.Mar 01 23:48
bruce89oh dearMar 01 23:48
bruce89that's horribly elitistMar 01 23:48
sebsebsebbruce89: xray  put something like that beforeMar 01 23:48
MinceRbruce89: the success of crApple seems to prove it right thoughMar 01 23:48
bruce89doesn't make it rightMar 01 23:48
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/technology/newsid_10050000/newsid_10058900/10058914.stmMar 01 23:48
phIRCe-BNcTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 88.29 KBMar 01 23:49
sebsebsebMinceR: seem to prove what?Mar 01 23:49
_GoblinIve now installed 38 deployments of Ubuntu, and they have all happened because I let the product speak for itself.  People once they know (in the main) want to move to Linux....enlightenment to the alternatives is the best weapon because at the end of the day Linux IS better than anything MS can offer.Mar 01 23:49
sebsebsebyeah Macs people should learn how to keep those secure as wellMar 01 23:49
MinceRthey prove it over and over (in studies and in the market) that people in general are unimaginably stupidMar 01 23:49
schestowitztessier: proxy down?Mar 01 23:49
bruce89well, people are in generalMar 01 23:49
sebsebsebalso all these computer courses teaching how to use Microsoft Office and such uh huh, well computer security is something they should be teaching as wellMar 01 23:49
MinceRand then those stupid people affect the industry i work in and use the products ofMar 01 23:49
MinceRi don't think that's fair.Mar 01 23:49
bruce89but is there anything that someone here doesn't know about?Mar 01 23:49
_Goblinlol.Mar 01 23:50
bruce89I could sit here and be remarkably elitist about cameras if I wantedMar 01 23:50
_Goblinis that a trick question?Mar 01 23:50
_GoblinI could about guitars.Mar 01 23:50
_Goblinand wrestlingMar 01 23:50
bruce89my point being that it's impossible to be informed about everythingMar 01 23:50
_Goblinoh and the 2 minute nappy change (not my own I hasten to add)Mar 01 23:51
vermilionnnnbruce89: but computers are now a critical part of societys infrastructure...shouldn't we expect a level of competence from those using them?Mar 01 23:51
bruce89it may matter to you, but it won't to everyoneMar 01 23:51
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: yeah exactly, computers matterMar 01 23:51
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: they basically control the world these daysMar 01 23:51
vermilionnnnpeople need drivers licenses for carsMar 01 23:51
bruce89vermilionnnn: well, they are indeed rather important these daysMar 01 23:51
MinceRthis isn't about being informed, it's about being willing to thinkMar 01 23:51
bruce89I'd argue that they are too importantMar 01 23:51
sebsebseband when most users are ignorant and use Windows and Microsoft Office, well that's what business will use as a resultMar 01 23:52
bruce89look at that case of the "facebook login" google fiascoMar 01 23:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Busy day. Just finished seven hours solid of meetings. Now onto my INBOX. :-)Mar 01 23:52
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Extensive review of Nokia N900 - Maemo 5 powered phone http://tinyurl.com/ygoduj6 #linux #phone via @shivaranjanMar 01 23:52
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] Getting the hang of emacs as a dev environment the last couple of days. I'm loving it. With ECB and autocompletion and all!Eclipse who?Mar 01 23:52
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Review: Nokia N900 Maemo 5 Powered Internet Tablet with Phone .::. Size~: 106.19 KBMar 01 23:52
sebsebsebthe student discounts for Microsoft products now, or even giving it away for free, then those students learn that, go into business, and the companies pay full priceMar 01 23:52
sebsebsebfor the productsMar 01 23:52
schestowitztessier: you about?Mar 01 23:53
bruce89companies always do that sort of thingMar 01 23:53
_Goblinsebsebseb, but like I say, if we become as agressive as MS in the promotion of software (free or not) then what differentiates us from MS?Mar 01 23:53
sebsebsebbruce89: companies also  cater to their users when it comes to a computerMar 01 23:53
sebsebsebthis is for  non technical companiesMar 01 23:53
bruce89_Goblin: exactlyMar 01 23:53
sebsebsebanyway they know that most of their employees are computer ignorantMar 01 23:53
sebsebseband so yep Windows and Microsoft Office for exampleMar 01 23:54
bruce89BASTARDS!Mar 01 23:54
tessieryeahMar 01 23:54
schestowitz:-)Mar 01 23:54
vermilionnnnsebsebseb: I can testify. Forth Valley College has a deal with Microsoft where all computing students get almost all peices of MS tech at no cost to the student.Mar 01 23:54
bruce89how could you possibly not know about computers!Mar 01 23:54
bruce89they should be put in gaol foreverMar 01 23:54
sebsebsebbruce89: they don't know how to keep Windows secure enough for example, because Eductational Establishments never taught them that.Mar 01 23:54
bruce89I don't think that spelling of jail has ever graced IRCMar 01 23:55
tessierWas the site down? Everything seems ok at the moment...Mar 01 23:55
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: yep happens in the UK as wellMar 01 23:55
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: these daysMar 01 23:55
sebsebsebgiving away loads of Microsoft software for free to studentsMar 01 23:55
vermilionnnnsebsebseb: its the UK im in :)Mar 01 23:55
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: ohMar 01 23:55
bruce89where do you think the Forth is?Mar 01 23:55
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: there's your host nameMar 01 23:55
_Goblinhe's right...... gaoler (as in the person who keeps the aforementioned)Mar 01 23:56
bruce89and don't say next to the thirdMar 01 23:56
sebsebsebbruce89: I don't know the geography of the UK that well, even though I have lived in it most of my life,  I also don't like this countrey that muchMar 01 23:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Some awesome discussion happening in #ubuntu-app-devel on freenode about writing cool apps this week. Bring it! #ubuntuMar 01 23:56
tessierbruce89: Right before the fifth?Mar 01 23:56
sebsebsebyeah Mono apps :D @  jono_ 's noticeMar 01 23:56
bruce89if the Fifth is the Tay, maybeMar 01 23:56
_Goblinsebsebseb, don't like the UK? shame shame shame!Mar 01 23:56
jono_sebsebseb, don't be lameMar 01 23:56
tessierTay Zonday?Mar 01 23:56
jono_:)Mar 01 23:56
vermilionnnnsebsebseb: doesn't ubuntu have a python fetish?Mar 01 23:57
sebsebsebjono_: uh?  I assume you picked up that I was making a joke out of itMar 01 23:57
jono_sebsebseb, yeah, a lame joke :)Mar 01 23:57
bruce89never?Mar 01 23:57
bruce89that's sebsebseb's favouriteMar 01 23:57
_GoblinPython is great!Mar 01 23:57
jono_bruce89, lolMar 01 23:57
jono__Goblin, love it :)Mar 01 23:57
sebsebsebvermilionnnn: I was going to put this, or something like this.  Being more serious though probably Python apps.Mar 01 23:57
_Goblinexcept when my own ineptitude deleted posts from my blog when I was trying to write a "clever" app.Mar 01 23:58
vermilionnnnahh, sorryMar 01 23:58
DaemonFChttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/23772/Mar 01 23:58
phIRCe-BNcTitle: Idea #23772: "Microkernels are conceptually better" - Ubuntu brainstorm .::. Size~: 35.22 KBMar 01 23:58
_GoblinPygame is very interesting.Mar 01 23:58
DaemonFCsweet jews for jesusMar 01 23:58
_Goblin?Mar 01 23:58
jono__Goblin, oopsMar 01 23:59
_Goblin?Mar 01 23:59
jono__Goblin, we have a PyGame session this week :)Mar 01 23:59
_GoblinI'll take a look....Mar 01 23:59
DaemonFCjono_, Have you guys been getting lots of bug reports that using gnome shell causes the kernel to die?Mar 01 23:59
_GoblinI bought a book on Pygame recentlyMar 01 23:59
jono_DaemonFC, not familiar with anyMar 01 23:59

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