IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 8th, 2009

_Hicham_MS Office sucks with its own formatMay 08 00:00
oiaohmExactly _Hicham_ attacking MS the other way you can have a field day.May 08 00:00
_Hicham_that is why I am saying isolationMay 08 00:00
_Hicham_Microsoft can do muchMay 08 00:00
_Hicham_they don't have to do soMay 08 00:01
oiaohmJust the change in mind set that they must support ODF correctly allows you to attack them better.May 08 00:01
bgtr4did you guys see dr. house seriesMay 08 00:01
_Hicham_the drain to free Open Source software won't stopMay 08 00:01
oiaohmODF becomes a simple to demo failure _Hicham_May 08 00:01
bgtr4machines already understand yes/no answerMay 08 00:01
_Hicham_supporting ODF is embracingMay 08 00:02
_Hicham_but they can't afford to embraceMay 08 00:02
oiaohmCurrently they are trying to embrace.May 08 00:02
_Hicham_because they lack money toMay 08 00:02
_Hicham_embracing costs a lotMay 08 00:02
_Hicham_Oracle got OpenOfficeMay 08 00:02
oiaohmBy making them support it correctly it costs a lot.May 08 00:02
_Hicham_so u can't predict how far this Office suite will goMay 08 00:03
oiaohmBy doing a half ass job MS gets to do it on the cheep.May 08 00:03
oiaohmBy not supporting it at all they get to do it on the really cheep.May 08 00:03
_Hicham_Oracle will try to kill Microst main market segmentsMay 08 00:03
_Hicham_they can't do it cheapMay 08 00:03
oiaohmFor sure there is no love lost between Oracle and Microsoft.May 08 00:03
_Hicham_they are afraid of leaking the source codeMay 08 00:04
oiaohmOracle long time ago had its database play up due to Microsoft alerting things.May 08 00:04
bgtr4oh it's from another channelMay 08 00:04
_Hicham_Oracle will revengeMay 08 00:04
oiaohmThat were latter documented as intentional.May 08 00:04
_Hicham_as they have Java nowMay 08 00:04
oiaohmSo causing Oracle to join the Linux Foundation.May 08 00:04
_Hicham_Oracle will help killing MicrosoftMay 08 00:05
oiaohmThere is no question about that.May 08 00:05
_Hicham_does Windows run on ARM processors?May 08 00:05
bgtr4http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40L3SGmcPDQ&feature=relatedMay 08 00:05
oiaohmWindows CE does  Reactos does but no applications.May 08 00:05
oiaohmAnd MS spot OS does.May 08 00:05
_Hicham_did u try ReactOS?May 08 00:06
oiaohmIts getting there slowly.May 08 00:06
oiaohmBig thing is that ReactOS runs in only 24 megs for ram.May 08 00:06
oiaohmKinda shows how bloated windows is.May 08 00:07
Balrog_ReactOS is very quirkyMay 08 00:07
Balrog_crashes all the timeMay 08 00:07
oiaohmcrashes are getting less.May 08 00:07
_Hicham_Balrog_ : it is still pre-releaseMay 08 00:07
oiaohmAlpha _Hicham_May 08 00:07
oiaohmIts not to prerelease yet.May 08 00:08
Balrog_oiaohm: I tried the installer image they have onlineMay 08 00:08
Balrog_another thing ... patents a problem?May 08 00:08
Balrog_or not?May 08 00:08
_Hicham_ok alpha, still not suitable for productionMay 08 00:08
oiaohmReactos home base is russia.May 08 00:08
oiaohmSoftware patents don't apply there.May 08 00:08
_Hicham_they use free code from wine projectMay 08 00:09
oiaohmUserspace .dll's yes _Hicham_May 08 00:09
_Hicham_it is a great code to learn windows internalMay 08 00:09
_Hicham_I know, since MSVC works thereMay 08 00:09
oiaohmUsing reactos soruce code to learn windows internals is better than using MS source code.May 08 00:10
oiaohmMS source code puts all kinds of restrictions on you.May 08 00:10
oiaohmThat is the big problem I have when people say Linux is less secure because it Open Source.May 08 00:11
oiaohmDo they think for one min that you cannot get your hands on the Windows source code fairly simply.May 08 00:11
_Hicham_Source code is not necessaryMay 08 00:12
_Hicham_buffer overflow vulnerabilities do not need source codeMay 08 00:12
oiaohmMore complex flaws source code is useful.May 08 00:12
_Hicham_plus, assembler code is not that hard to understandMay 08 00:12
_Hicham_oiaohm : for assessmentMay 08 00:13
_Hicham_not for attacksMay 08 00:13
oiaohmYou sign up for the right UNI courses and you can get your hands on the full source code.May 08 00:13
_Hicham_to attack, you don't really need source codeMay 08 00:13
oiaohmSo you can run assessments to produce more zero day attackes.May 08 00:13
_Hicham_Open Source mean community researchMay 08 00:14
oiaohmMS is no more safe than Linux.May 08 00:14
oiaohmBoth source codes can be researched.May 08 00:14
_Hicham_closed source means small team developmentMay 08 00:14
oiaohmWhat makes Windows closed source.May 08 00:14
oiaohmits not.May 08 00:14
_Hicham_MS source code is a real messMay 08 00:14
oiaohmIts restricted source.May 08 00:14
_Hicham_exactlyMay 08 00:15
oiaohmMeaning a lot of people can get the hands on the source code.May 08 00:15
_Hicham_you can get the source code under Microsoft Shared Code License thingMay 08 00:15
oiaohmBut touching the source code means you agree not to compete with MS.May 08 00:15
_Hicham_exactlyMay 08 00:15
_Hicham_just for development purposesMay 08 00:15
oiaohmDoes an attacker care about competing with MS.May 08 00:16
oiaohmNopMay 08 00:16
oiaohmSo they can happly take the MS source code.May 08 00:16
_Hicham_MS is just fucking peopleMay 08 00:17
oiaohmSo in real world there is no difference between Linux and Windows based on source code avaiblity.May 08 00:17
Balrog_oiaohm: thanks for telling meMay 08 00:17
Balrog_is the 'Windows Internals' book ok?May 08 00:17
_Hicham_they used dirty methods to spread their operating systemMay 08 00:17
Balrog_(that reactos code is ok for studying windows)May 08 00:17
Balrog_windows internals *May 08 00:17
oiaohmWindows Internals book is the same cat as reversing.May 08 00:18
_Hicham_Windows Internals is just exposing its public APIMay 08 00:18
oiaohmIn clean room reversing.May 08 00:18
oiaohmOne person writes the documentation how functions should work ie Windows Internals.May 08 00:18
oiaohmAnother person writes the code.May 08 00:18
oiaohm100 percent legally clean.May 08 00:19
_Hicham_Windows have to be quarantinedMay 08 00:20
oiaohmReactos code has not made you agree to a nasty licence Balrog_May 08 00:20
_Hicham_it is a fucking crazy idea to use a restricted OSMay 08 00:20
oiaohmWhere the true windows code does.May 08 00:20
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oiaohmNote studing reactos source code does not say its all 100 percent legally safe to copy.   Due to patents and other things Balrog_May 08 00:22
oiaohmAnd that is true of all OS source codes out there.May 08 00:23
Balrog_yes.May 08 00:24
Balrog_one of the courses I have to take goes over some windows internals stuffMay 08 00:24
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oiaohmReactos has basically grown out of people doing windows internals courses.May 08 00:26
oiaohmHow better to understand it than be able to see it work.May 08 00:26
Balrogheh. I see.May 08 00:26
DaemonFCReactOS is an effort, 14 years in the making, to port 300,000 viruses and spyware programs to a free software operating systemMay 08 00:27
DaemonFChope this helps :)May 08 00:27
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Balrogthat's the other thing...WHY reimplement badly engineered code?May 08 00:28
Balrogor APIsMay 08 00:28
DaemonFCthat is an interesting thought thoughMay 08 00:28
DaemonFCHow many Windows viruses would be binary compatible?May 08 00:28
Balrogif the code is properly written, few to noneMay 08 00:29
DaemonFCobviously some of the stuff in Windows would never be reimplementedMay 08 00:29
Balrogyes.May 08 00:29
DaemonFCI don't see them in a rush to support Microsoft Agent for exampleMay 08 00:29
DaemonFCor a direct clone of Internet ExplorerMay 08 00:29
DaemonFCbut some viruses would undoubtedly runMay 08 00:29
oiaohmViruses already run in wine.May 08 00:29
DaemonFCnot reallyMay 08 00:30
DaemonFCthey had a thing where they tried thatMay 08 00:30
DaemonFCbut none of them really workedMay 08 00:30
oiaohmWorst case 200 were running in one machine.May 08 00:30
DaemonFCjust made a messMay 08 00:30
oiaohmOut of the numbers of windows viruses out there that is not many.May 08 00:30
oiaohmSome do truely work DaemonFC just not large numbers yet.May 08 00:31
DaemonFCunfortunately, thanks to the BIOS, Windows is STILL vulnerable to some ancient boot sector virusesMay 08 00:31
oiaohmSo is Linux.May 08 00:31
oiaohmboot sector viruses are one thing that just does not want to die.May 08 00:31
DaemonFCsome Vista systems in Europe were infected with a 14 year old boot sector virus meant for DOSMay 08 00:33
DaemonFCif that tells you anythingMay 08 00:33
DaemonFChttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/09/17/vista_hit_by_stoned_angelina/May 08 00:34
oiaohmI have found a Linux systems boot sector infected.May 08 00:34
DaemonFC13 years old at the time I guessMay 08 00:34
DaemonFC15 nowMay 08 00:34
oiaohmI still turn up the PC is now stoned virus now and again.May 08 00:34
oiaohmYes one of the first boot sector viruses ever made.May 08 00:35
oiaohmAnd its still floating around.May 08 00:35
BalrogDaemonFC: heh ... Aldi ... there are some of those stores around hereMay 08 00:36
Balrogand they do sell Medion systemsMay 08 00:36
DaemonFCi've seen those hereMay 08 00:36
DaemonFClast batch I saw had XP thoughMay 08 00:36
oiaohmAldi sells lot of over supplies BalrogMay 08 00:38
oiaohmSo they have them sometimes.May 08 00:38
Balrogoiaohm: I've been to the storesMay 08 00:38
Balrogthere's one around hereMay 08 00:38
oiaohmThe one hammer drill Aldi gets in from time to time is great.May 08 00:42
oiaohmNice thing I have for getting cables threw walls.May 08 00:43
schestowitzbgtr4: good videoMay 08 01:07
DaemonFCMicrosoft is replacing OneCareMay 08 01:07
DaemonFCin favor of some kind of freeware antivirusMay 08 01:07
schestowitzOneCare should replace MicrosoftMay 08 01:08
schestowitz"install linux?"May 08 01:08
DaemonFChttp://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs/mah/free-microsoft-morro-will-shift-2009-antivirus-market/?cs=16427May 08 01:08
DaemonFC"However, even though current antivirus solutions on the market work, just about all of them are bloated and result in Windows running slower after installing them.  In addition, have you noticed that competition never did appear to do much on their pricing, either?"May 08 01:09
DaemonFCat least they got that part about rightMay 08 01:09
DaemonFCit's interesting to see Microsoft breaking up the antivirus "protection racket" at leastMay 08 01:12
Balrogwhat do you think of this new eglibc?May 08 01:13
Balrog(fork)May 08 01:14
schestowitzHhee.May 08 01:16
oiaohmeglibc started off fixing problems.May 08 01:17
schestowitz"I'm a Mac Person, it might now work"May 08 01:17
oiaohmFor embed usage BalrogMay 08 01:17
schestowitzPeople don't like connecting stuff to their body if it runs Windows...May 08 01:17
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40L3SGmcPDQ&feature=relatedMay 08 01:17
Balrogoiaohm: I hear Debian is moving to it not only for embeddedMay 08 01:17
oiaohmHopefully glibc lifts there game with some compeition or dies.May 08 01:17
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Balrogwhat about Drepper?May 08 01:18
oiaohmDebian has been back porting patches into glibcMay 08 01:18
oiaohmDue to defects not getting fixed in releases.May 08 01:18
DaemonFC"Our concern is that many consumers no longer have a degree of concern around security that leads them to keep their consumer security protection up-to-date." Microsoft estimates that in the United States, 60 percent of consumers "either don't or won't pay for anti-malware protection."May 08 01:19
DaemonFClmaoMay 08 01:19
oiaohmForks are required in the open source world from time to time to create growth.May 08 01:19
oiaohmExactly why pay for anti-virus protection when there are a lot of free ones out there that work just as good.May 08 01:20
BalrogI see. :/May 08 01:21
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oiaohmeveryone forgets the egc's complier  fork of gcc that merged back in time.  Causes gcc to grow a bit in that time.May 08 01:22
oiaohmllvm also a fork of gcc putting competition on gcc so expanding grouth of both projects.May 08 01:23
oiaohmOpen Source only works well when there is competition.May 08 01:23
DaemonFCyeah, the free ones tend to work betterMay 08 01:24
yuhongBTW, anyone can download Windows 7 RC and try it for yourself.May 08 01:24
yuhongIn fact, that is what I did.May 08 01:24
DaemonFCWindows 7 does not work wellMay 08 01:24
schestowitzbgtr4: seems like an advertMay 08 01:25
schestowitzFor just very basic signal readinhMay 08 01:25
schestowitz*readingMay 08 01:25
yuhongI downloaded the beta of Windows 7 and installed it to a VM using MS Virtual PC.May 08 01:26
DaemonFCThey failed to correct the biggest problems in VistaMay 08 01:28
DaemonFClike maybe paring down the 1000 options in the control panelMay 08 01:28
DaemonFChttp://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/02/contropanel.jpgMay 08 01:28
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgAEeisfHW8&NR=1May 08 01:29
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yuhongschestowitz: Funny video!May 08 01:30
yuhongBTW, now that all music in iTunes is DRM-free, what do you think about SJ's open letter about *music* DRM in retrospect?May 08 01:31
yuhongoiaohm: On the matter of LLVM, Apple is one vendor that is switching to it.May 08 01:32
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide&num=1  ATI users should be happy soon.May 08 01:33
oiaohmDRM is always a risk to data loss.May 08 01:34
yuhongYep.May 08 01:34
Balrogschestowitz: theora may be becoming superior to h.264: http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/07/2352203&art_pos=1May 08 01:35
yuhongPersonally, I think the idea of controlling copying of things that are inherently copyable is a fundamentally flawed idea.May 08 01:35
oiaohmIts when DRM system dies.May 08 01:36
oiaohmWere the probelm with DRM comes in.May 08 01:36
oiaohmNo lessions were learnt from dongles.May 08 01:36
Balrogyuhong: I think media companies have a lot to play in DRM schemesMay 08 01:36
Balrogwhile music is DRM-free, hopefully video will be nextMay 08 01:37
oiaohmDRM predates media compainesMay 08 01:37
oiaohmDongles with cad software was the first majorally used form.May 08 01:37
oiaohmAnd it had major problems.May 08 01:37
Balrogsoftware drm is a bit more troublesome though.May 08 01:37
BalrogI feel dongles are draconian thoughMay 08 01:38
oiaohmThey are both draconianMay 08 01:38
oiaohmWith the same defect.May 08 01:38
oiaohmWhat do you do when the DRM system breaks.May 08 01:38
yuhongAnd the same fundamental flaws.May 08 01:38
oiaohmBasically humans are idiots.May 08 01:39
yuhongIt has a lot to do with economics.May 08 01:39
oiaohmOutcome of DRM was predictable.May 08 01:39
Balrogoiaohm: that's why there has to be an easy way to override drmMay 08 01:39
oiaohmWatermarking the music with people personal information is quite effective.May 08 01:39
DaemonFCdon't they just add it to the tag?May 08 01:40
Balrogoiaohm: watermarking in which way?May 08 01:40
yuhonghttp://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&f=34709834&m=718000638931May 08 01:40
DaemonFCthat's easily stripped outMay 08 01:40
BalrogThe way Apple is doing it is rather easy to removeMay 08 01:40
Balrogyes, it's just hidden tagsMay 08 01:40
oiaohmEmbed in the audio stream.May 08 01:40
yuhongWatermarking is far less intrusive than DRM.May 08 01:40
oiaohmAs minor interference.May 08 01:40
yuhonghttp://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/34709834/m/166006777931?r=669007777931May 08 01:40
Balrogembedding watermarks in the audio stream is more intrusive than DRM because you hear it.May 08 01:41
oiaohmThe damage is less than mp3 compression.May 08 01:41
Balrogstudies indicated that people can hear itMay 08 01:42
DaemonFCVista is crackable cause they had to build workarounds for OEMs that can't be bothered to activate billions of PCsMay 08 01:42
DaemonFCDRM on music won't work cause they still have to sell CDsMay 08 01:42
yuhongThese are the threads I posted on Ars regarding the fundamental flaws of DRM.May 08 01:42
DaemonFCthey tried to infect CDs and had a customer revoltMay 08 01:42
BalrogI can tell that lossless music sounds better than mp3/aacMay 08 01:42
oiaohmstudies indicated that people could pick it up if they had the source and the altered.May 08 01:42
yuhongYep, I know about the Sony DMG disaster.May 08 01:42
DaemonFCThe *ONLY* DRM that can work is so called cloud computingMay 08 01:43
Balrogheh. blocking autorun would take care of that partMay 08 01:43
oiaohmBut lot of cases they could not tell you what one was the altered.May 08 01:43
DaemonFCthey may never stop anyone from taking a copy of WindowsMay 08 01:43
BalrogDaemonFC: how would cloud computing work on CDs?May 08 01:43
DaemonFCbut they can make so many services with an online subscription component that "piracy" no longer mattersMay 08 01:43
oiaohmOnly that they were minorally different.May 08 01:43
oiaohmThe hardest form them to detect was minor speed alterations.May 08 01:43
oiaohmIn the same class tapes would develop over time.May 08 01:44
yuhongThere is a lot of economics behind DRM.May 08 01:44
DaemonFCwhat Windows is heading for is a "base system" you get, and to make it do anything, you have to have a "Passport" with those features linked to itMay 08 01:44
oiaohmWell done water marking uses styles of interferince we are use to.May 08 01:44
yuhongI described some of it in the threads I linked above.May 08 01:45
yuhongBTW, Windows Starter is not new, and neither are the restrictions associated with it.May 08 01:45
DaemonFCthey've been moving slowly from traditional OSMay 08 01:46
Balrogyuhong: I'm fully aware of thatMay 08 01:46
DaemonFCto one based on cloud servicesMay 08 01:46
yuhongDowngraded are not new either.May 08 01:46
oiaohmCloud computering risks being draconian to the extream.May 08 01:46
Balrogthough that won't work, because uninterruptible internet isn't everywhere yet, and probably never will beMay 08 01:46
oiaohmEither pay you subscrition or loss your data.May 08 01:46
yuhongEven back in XP days, volume licensing customers could downgrade to 2000, NT 4.0, or 98.May 08 01:46
oiaohmOnly from XP pro yuhongMay 08 01:46
oiaohmThat still applies to Vista Business and UP.May 08 01:47
DaemonFCXP is getting to be too much of a pain in the ass to run on a modern systemMay 08 01:47
DaemonFCit will sort itself out eventuallyMay 08 01:47
yuhongVista and 7 IMO are not bad OSes.May 08 01:47
oiaohmthey are not great OS's either yuhongMay 08 01:47
oiaohmThey are built for a age that never will come.May 08 01:48
DaemonFCWell, you may as well just grab Vista Basic and tack onto it with hacks and third party softwareMay 08 01:48
oiaohman age where computer would always containstally get bigger.May 08 01:48
DaemonFClike you can enable Aero Glass, it's just not made clear how to do itMay 08 01:48
oiaohmnetbooks has broken that.May 08 01:48
yuhongBTW, on XP being obsolete, see http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000646.html.May 08 01:48
DaemonFCmy first impression with Vista was that it was just a slower, enormous version of XPMay 08 01:49
DaemonFCand that's still my impressionMay 08 01:49
yuhongoiaohm: Yep, MS did not pay attention to netbooks when designing XP.May 08 01:49
yuhongI mean VIsta.May 08 01:49
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DaemonFCthere's really only two things Vista has going for it, compositing and driver supportMay 08 01:50
yuhongOf course, Vista is a lot more than just that.May 08 01:50
DaemonFCwell, most of Vista is just bloatMay 08 01:50
DaemonFCthere's 7 different SKUs and none of them do precisely what you wantMay 08 01:50
yuhongSome of it may be.May 08 01:50
yuhongAnyway, MS is paying attension to netbooks with 7May 08 01:51
oiaohmNetbooks have been in the market for a long time.May 08 01:51
DaemonFCthe idea of an OS that's meant to serve "demographics" is jsut stupidMay 08 01:51
oiaohmAlways on the edge.May 08 01:51
DaemonFCthey should start you with a base system and let you tack on whatever you need after the factMay 08 01:51
oiaohmFirst netbooks appeard in the 1990~May 08 01:51
DaemonFCbut why do that when they can bundle a dozen things you don't wantMay 08 01:51
DaemonFCand make you buy them?May 08 01:51
yuhongMS is already doing this with Server 2008.May 08 01:52
oiaohmAsus when they built there netbook that took off they though it would be another that would sell under 1 million units.May 08 01:52
oiaohmStill be profitable but not very much profit.May 08 01:52
oiaohmBasically everyone was caught hopping with netbooksMay 08 01:52
oiaohmIncluding Asus.May 08 01:53
yuhongEven providing a Server Core version.May 08 01:53
oiaohmThere complete inventory was gone in the first day.May 08 01:53
oiaohmLinux has not attacked Windows Servers yet.May 08 01:53
oiaohmThat should start this year.May 08 01:53
DaemonFCMicrosoft *could* strip Windows 7 down enough to run well on a netbookMay 08 01:53
DaemonFCwill they?May 08 01:54
DaemonFCwho knows?May 08 01:54
DaemonFCThrowing XP on them doesn't require any new effortMay 08 01:54
DaemonFCso I kind of think it will go on like this for a whileMay 08 01:54
oiaohmLinux did attack MS server market in the 1998 as well with samba.     ADS saved MS server market from destuction back then.May 08 01:54
yuhongYep.May 08 01:55
oiaohmI currently cannot see what MS has this time to save themselves from destruction.May 08 01:55
yuhongSamba 4 will recover by adding support for AD.May 08 01:55
oiaohmSamba 3May 08 01:55
oiaohmIs getting AD support first.May 08 01:55
yuhongWindows 7 is not even released yet.May 08 01:55
oiaohmTo be correct 3.4.0 samba has precuser support for AD.May 08 01:56
oiaohmThat will be fully release soon.May 08 01:56
oiaohmhttp://wiki.samba.org/index.php/Franky  << Yep project franky merge of Samba 3 and Samba 4 and that is in 3.4.0May 08 01:57
oiaohmBy the time Windows 7 enters the market most of the secound wave attacks will in full fightMay 08 01:59
DaemonFCI do like some of what Microsoft has done with NTFS as of lateMay 08 01:59
yuhongBTW, on Vista being the kitchen sink, here is a quote on exactly this:May 08 01:59
yuhongFrom http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=193May 08 01:59
oiaohmBig problem MS has with samba with ads support NAS builders will be able to compete for Small business market against Small business server.May 08 02:00
DaemonFCWell, Vista is humongous, but, I *STILL* have to bolt on all the usual add on softwareMay 08 02:00
DaemonFCto make it do anythingMay 08 02:00
yuhong"I suspect that a few too many teams hitched a ride on Windows Vista to get their stuff pushed out to desktops, like .NET Framework 3.0."May 08 02:00
DaemonFCI don't think that putting in .Net was any accidentMay 08 02:01
oiaohmI suspect someone as MS though to be better than Linux they had to have a bigger install size.May 08 02:01
DaemonFCfew people would download the huge runtimeMay 08 02:01
yuhongNope, it was not an accident.May 08 02:01
DaemonFCbut developers will use it if it's installed on every systemMay 08 02:01
yuhongYep.May 08 02:02
DaemonFCIt's like JAVA, and telling your users they have to download 50 megs of runtime to run your 4 meg installerMay 08 02:02
DaemonFCso they spring that on you as part of THEIR installerMay 08 02:02
DaemonFC:)May 08 02:02
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DaemonFCIf I know that .Net 3.0 is on every Vista computer, but I'd have to bother my customer with a huge runtime installation and new system services to get JAVAMay 08 02:03
DaemonFCI'd lean to .NetMay 08 02:03
DaemonFCthat was the ideaMay 08 02:04
yuhongBTW, MS once did bundle MSJVM with Windows.May 08 02:04
DaemonFCyeah, but it wasn't JAVAMay 08 02:05
yuhongBut, they embarsed and extended the JVM the wrong way.May 08 02:05
DaemonFCthey made theirs incompatible and they made their developer tools spit out applets that couldn't run on Sun'sMay 08 02:05
DaemonFCno, that was intentionalMay 08 02:05
DaemonFCit ran better on WindowsMay 08 02:05
DaemonFCand it ran ONLY on WindowsMay 08 02:05
DaemonFCwhere's their problem?May 08 02:05
DaemonFC:)May 08 02:05
yuhongLuckily Sun caught them and now MSJVM is dead.May 08 02:05
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DaemonFCMicrosoft has a tool to convert your MS JVM applets to .NetMay 08 02:06
yuhongYep.May 08 02:06
oiaohm.NET is basically MS recreating java to do what they wantMay 08 02:07
yuhongBut of course Sun Java is better.May 08 02:07
Balrogand what's this J++ and J# ?May 08 02:07
DaemonFCBalrog: I think I still have some booksMay 08 02:07
yuhongYep, these were MS versions of the Java language.May 08 02:07
DaemonFCteaching you J++ and J#May 08 02:07
_Hicham_J++ is MS JavaMay 08 02:07
yuhongYep.May 08 02:07
Balrogthey're still supported, no?May 08 02:08
DaemonFCnoMay 08 02:08
_Hicham_but it has been abandonedMay 08 02:08
DaemonFCnot even security patchesMay 08 02:08
_Hicham_no supportMay 08 02:08
yuhongYep, MSJVM is no longer supported.May 08 02:08
DaemonFCyou can find it around but you should not install itMay 08 02:08
_Hicham_there is only C# nowMay 08 02:08
BalrogOK.May 08 02:08
yuhongAnd VB.NET.May 08 02:08
*Ap0g33 is now known as Ap0g33_awayMay 08 02:08
_Hicham_MSJVM was better looking than Sun's JVM at the timeMay 08 02:09
_Hicham_but things has changedMay 08 02:09
_Hicham_though Java graphic API is still heavyMay 08 02:09
_Hicham_especially swingMay 08 02:09
_Hicham_Oh My God!May 08 02:09
_Hicham_Java was always running slow for meMay 08 02:10
_Hicham_especially on LinuxMay 08 02:10
yuhongI know!May 08 02:10
_Hicham_Java was a lieMay 08 02:10
yuhongOn the matter of Apple, I like Apple and SJ for many reasons, but freedom is not one of them and never was.May 08 02:10
_Hicham_it was just a language for Solaris and WindowsMay 08 02:10
yuhong_Hicham_: MSJVM was even worse.May 08 02:10
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_Hicham_no strong Linux supportMay 08 02:11
DaemonFCJ# is still supportedMay 08 02:12
_Hicham_a good open source language is PythonMay 08 02:12
DaemonFCas part of .NetMay 08 02:12
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yuhongYep, but it is not part of VS2008.May 08 02:12
yuhongThough MS did port it to 64-bit.May 08 02:12
_Hicham_Python should have got more attention from enterprise devsMay 08 02:12
_Hicham_fuck VS2008May 08 02:12
_Hicham_oiaohm is silent, weirdMay 08 02:13
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yuhongIt was called the second edition.May 08 02:13
yuhong>On the matter of Apple, I like Apple and SJ for many reasons, but freedom is not one of them and never was.May 08 02:14
_Hicham_Java is not free until nowMay 08 02:14
oiaohmDoing supporting in winehq _Hicham_May 08 02:14
yuhongBTW, I was going to ask something, but considering schestowitz is not here, I won't.May 08 02:14
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_Hicham_oiaohm : will wine support DX10?May 08 02:15
oiaohmSupport for DX10 is under way.May 08 02:15
oiaohmAlready having teams preping up for DX 11.May 08 02:16
oiaohmWines direct X ie wined3d is used by many virtualisation companies on windows.May 08 02:16
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_Hicham_who sponsors wine?May 08 02:19
oiaohmcodeweavers funds the main site.   They get money from google and others.   Some developers come from paralls and vmware for the direct X side.May 08 02:20
oiaohmNormal open source complete mixed bag of funding _Hicham_May 08 02:20
oiaohmOf course don't forget the Redhat coders in there as well.May 08 02:21
oiaohmThat I have had a few disputes with.May 08 02:21
oiaohmBecause I keep on forgeting about them.May 08 02:21
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DaemonFCWhat's up with Bordeaux?May 08 02:34
oiaohmBordeaux we don't see direct money going back into wine.May 08 02:36
oiaohmThey use wine but the funding back to wine is not that high.May 08 02:36
DaemonFCshitMay 08 02:37
DaemonFCbrbMay 08 02:37
DaemonFCmodem is telling me I have to sign up with ComcastMay 08 02:37
DaemonFC(storm just went over)May 08 02:37
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DaemonFChttp://actsvr.comcastonline.com/nocache/realactsvr.htmlMay 08 02:39
DaemonFCthat's the only page that loads til I reset the modem after a storm sometimes :PMay 08 02:39
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DaemonFChttp://www.codinghorror.com/blog/archives/000688.htmlMay 08 02:51
twitterha haMay 08 02:53
twittera couple of megabytes for Notepad?  ha ha ha haMay 08 02:55
twitterMy laptop only has 512 MB of RAMMay 08 02:56
DaemonFC1,352KMay 08 02:57
DaemonFCfor an empty NotepadMay 08 02:57
DaemonFC$1 buys more like 100 megs of RAMMay 08 02:58
DaemonFC:)May 08 02:58
twitterI'm running Kontact, pidgin, Konqueror with 9 tabs, gedit, kweather, kworldclock, a couple of eterms and gnome terminal.May 08 02:58
twitterlow load, for sureMay 08 02:58
DaemonFCcompared to 15 years ago where $100 bought 1 megMay 08 02:58
twitterbut I know I could also run OO, iceweasle and watch a movieMay 08 02:58
DaemonFClolMay 08 02:58
twitterreading about XP and Vista is truly a horror.May 08 02:59
DaemonFCmeh, there's really no reason to squabble about how much RAM an operating system usesMay 08 02:59
DaemonFCthis isn't 1999May 08 02:59
twitterI'm not going to squabble, XP is a pig.May 08 02:59
DaemonFCXP is fairly minimalMay 08 03:00
twitterI have to run it at work and it absolutely kills much nicer hardware than I have at homeMay 08 03:00
DaemonFCXP is fairly responsive on some pretty low end shitMay 08 03:00
DaemonFCnot just low end shit by 2009 standardsMay 08 03:00
DaemonFClow end shit by 2002 standardsMay 08 03:00
twitterYour idea of responsive is generous.May 08 03:00
DaemonFCXP will run reasonably well on 512 megs of RAM and a 1 Ghz CPUMay 08 03:01
twitterYour idea of reasonable is not.May 08 03:01
DaemonFCI've seen it sold with systems with as little as 128 megs of RAMMay 08 03:02
twitterYou can also get it on netbooks.  That does not make it work.May 08 03:02
twitterI have to run an application for records keeping.  It bombs at least once a day.May 08 03:02
DaemonFCanything over a gig of RAM is really just going to be wasted with XPMay 08 03:02
DaemonFCI mean it's there, but you'd really have to run a lot to overload itMay 08 03:03
twitterWindows is a waste of any hardware.  Really.May 08 03:03
twitterI get my job done with a lot more hardware than we are talking about here.May 08 03:03
twitterbut it's slow and crash proneMay 08 03:03
twitterOutlook really sucks.May 08 03:03
twitterI have to run an application for records keeping.  It bombs at least once a day.May 08 03:04
DaemonFCyou really have to look to find hardware so minimal that XP won't run fine on itMay 08 03:04
DaemonFCI'm not even sure they still sell anyMay 08 03:04
twitterI want better performance.  XP is clumsy.May 08 03:04
twitterSingle screen.May 08 03:04
DaemonFCyeah, XP is 8 years oldMay 08 03:04
DaemonFCof course it's clumsy on a modern PCMay 08 03:04
DaemonFCit was meant for much slower systemsMay 08 03:05
twitterE16 is ten years old, but vastly better.May 08 03:05
twittergraceful and functionalMay 08 03:05
DaemonFCI didn't say I liked XPMay 08 03:05
DaemonFCit's far too limited to use on a modern PCMay 08 03:06
twitterYou keep calling it "reasonable" and "Minimal" when it's not.May 08 03:06
DaemonFCit is minimalMay 08 03:06
twitterIt's bloated and clumsy.  It turns both new and old hardware into garbageMay 08 03:06
DaemonFCthe kiosk version of it runs fine with 64 megs of RAMMay 08 03:06
twitterWhat do you mean "fine"?May 08 03:06
DaemonFCenough to run a kioskMay 08 03:07
DaemonFCthe ones I use basically just load a touchscreen system in an embedded Internet ExplorerMay 08 03:07
twitterGPE on a 200 MHz ARM is enough to run a Kiosk.May 08 03:07
DaemonFCpushed full screenMay 08 03:07
DaemonFCWinFLP is lighter thoughMay 08 03:08
twitterit would probably handle my work better than XP does too.May 08 03:08
DaemonFCI have a WinFLP disc if you want ne :)May 08 03:08
DaemonFChehMay 08 03:08
DaemonFCit's fairly novelMay 08 03:09
DaemonFCmostly XP compatible but much smallerMay 08 03:09
twitterNo thanks.  Someone else is responsible for that stuff.  I'm staying out of it, other than to recommend complete replacement and Wine for the parts that can't be removed.May 08 03:09
*DaemonFC is a collector of operating systems :PMay 08 03:09
DaemonFCmakes as much sense as collecting coins, stamps, or pogs I guesswMay 08 03:09
twitterI've got OS/2 floppies, ha ha.May 08 03:09
twittercompletely uselessMay 08 03:10
DaemonFCMy favorite by far is still FedoraMay 08 03:10
DaemonFCbut OS X is quite goodMay 08 03:10
twitterIt's been a while since I've looked at Fedora.May 08 03:10
DaemonFCF11 Preview is looking goodMay 08 03:10
twitterI never did grok their set up filesMay 08 03:10
twitterDebian is good to me.May 08 03:11
DaemonFCFedora is getting easier to set up and use than UbuntuMay 08 03:11
DaemonFCand has a concept of securityMay 08 03:11
DaemonFC(Ubuntu doesn't)May 08 03:11
twitterone thing you are right about is the price of RAM.  I should buy some more for my laptop.May 08 03:12
DaemonFCUbuntu has the firewall disabled and ships with  AppArmor.....turned offMay 08 03:12
DaemonFCit's not what you'd want to use in a secure environmentMay 08 03:12
twitterwhy do you need a firewall when you don't run services?May 08 03:12
DaemonFCbecause it should be easy enough to set and forgetMay 08 03:12
twitterwhat is AppArmor?May 08 03:12
DaemonFCUbuntu makes an ass out of itself if you try to use itMay 08 03:13
twitterI see people using itMay 08 03:13
twitterthey like itMay 08 03:13
twitterI don't like sudoMay 08 03:13
DaemonFCAppArmor is a Linux Security Module that uses Mandatory Access ControlsMay 08 03:13
twitterWhy do I need that?May 08 03:13
DaemonFCAdvantage over SELinux is that profiles are easier to defineMay 08 03:13
twitterprofiles?May 08 03:13
DaemonFCDisadvantage is that is easy to hack through by using simple symlinksMay 08 03:14
DaemonFCand other methodsMay 08 03:14
twittersounds like a wasteMay 08 03:14
DaemonFCa complete wasteMay 08 03:14
twitterwhy mention it?May 08 03:14
DaemonFCFedora has a default SELinux profile that won't usually get in the users wayMay 08 03:14
DaemonFCbut still locks down critical servicesMay 08 03:14
DaemonFCand applicationsMay 08 03:14
DaemonFC(Firefox and such)May 08 03:15
twitterlocks down?May 08 03:15
DaemonFClimits them to only the kind of permissions they should need to operate correctlyMay 08 03:15
DaemonFCso that if they do something they shouldn't, they won't be allowedMay 08 03:15
twitterdon't they already have that when run as a non root user?May 08 03:15
DaemonFCit's meant to mitigate the impact of a security vulnerabilityMay 08 03:15
DaemonFCnoMay 08 03:15
DaemonFCbecause some services run with root level accessMay 08 03:16
twitterwhat can I make FF do that I can't do directly?May 08 03:16
twitterFF does not run with root level accessMay 08 03:16
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELinuxMay 08 03:16
DaemonFCno, but it can be sandboxed nonethelessMay 08 03:16
twittersounds like snake oil.  Good for Ubuntu to not use it.May 08 03:17
DaemonFCthat's why you should run Flash in nspluginwrapperMay 08 03:17
twitterYou should not run Flash.May 08 03:17
twitter:)May 08 03:17
DaemonFCeven if you ue the 64-bit on a 64-bit system or 32-bit on 32-bit systemMay 08 03:17
DaemonFCthat was SELinux can sandbox itMay 08 03:17
DaemonFCUbuntu is reidiculously weakMay 08 03:17
twitterI've used Gnash.  It has a nice 64 bit versionMay 08 03:18
twitterYet Ubuntu always wins the Pown to own contest you mentionMay 08 03:18
DaemonFCUbuntu is encouraging poor computing practices on the assumption that nobody will ever try to exploit any problems with itMay 08 03:18
DaemonFCwhich is a piss poor attitudeMay 08 03:18
DaemonFCthat would be like removing the safety belts from a car and telling the owner they won't ever need themMay 08 03:20
DaemonFCand not to worry or ask questionsMay 08 03:20
DaemonFCthe pwn to own contest is too contrived to be mistaken as a security gaugeMay 08 03:21
DaemonFCthe vulnerabilities they use to "hack into" Windows or Mac have never been flaws in Windows Vista or OS XMay 08 03:21
DaemonFCbut usually in Flash or somethingMay 08 03:21
twitterFlash or something, yeah.May 08 03:22
DaemonFCWhy don't they put Flash in Firefox on Ubuntu in that machine?May 08 03:22
DaemonFCbecause that would undermine their overly engineered PR message that Ubuntu is secure cause it is less functional out of box?May 08 03:23
DaemonFCthey need to make all three of them as similarly configured as possibleMay 08 03:23
DaemonFCif one had third party software, the others should have it tooMay 08 03:23
DaemonFCor else the result is invalidMay 08 03:24
DaemonFCnotice they never said the vulnerability wasn't in Linux Flash, they merely had not installed itMay 08 03:26
DaemonFCso they intentionally hobbled Vista and OS X with a security hole they left out of UbuntuMay 08 03:27
DaemonFCmight have been interesting to see the order they got "pwned" in if they all either did or did not have FlashMay 08 03:29
DaemonFCmy guess is either all or none of them would have beenMay 08 03:29
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twitterguess again.  There are plenty of holes in Windoze, no flash is required.  IE, Outlook and so on and so forth.  Hell, you can just stick in a well crafted USB stick.May 08 03:35
DaemonFCturn autoplay offMay 08 03:35
twitter"out of the box"May 08 03:36
twitterI imagine the reason Flash is installed on Mac and Windows PC in the contest is that's the way most of those machines arrive.May 08 03:37
twitterYou know, they take the computer out of the box and let people play with it.May 08 03:37
DaemonFCVista does not have Flash by defaultMay 08 03:37
twitterYeah, instead it has ultra secure SilverblightMay 08 03:37
twitterha ahMay 08 03:37
DaemonFCnoMay 08 03:37
twitterhaMay 08 03:37
DaemonFCdoesn't have thatMay 08 03:37
twitterNo?May 08 03:38
twitterIt's not part of SP1 or SP2?May 08 03:38
DaemonFCnoMay 08 03:38
twittergood for themMay 08 03:38
DaemonFC:)May 08 03:38
twitterNo wonder no one uses it.May 08 03:38
DaemonFCso out of box it has no JAVA, Flash, or SilverlightMay 08 03:38
DaemonFCso test it like that :)May 08 03:38
DaemonFCand the rules say all available security updatesMay 08 03:39
twitterThat's not the way you get it from Dell, HP or most others.May 08 03:39
DaemonFCIE 8 is includedMay 08 03:39
DaemonFCthis isn't about HP or DellMay 08 03:39
DaemonFCif something HP or Dell does fucks it upMay 08 03:39
DaemonFCsay HP or Dell fucked it upMay 08 03:39
DaemonFC:PMay 08 03:39
DaemonFCwouldn't be the first timeMay 08 03:40
twitterIt's about "out of the box"May 08 03:40
DaemonFCthat doesn't countMay 08 03:40
twitterThey take a computer out of the box, the way most computers get to peopleMay 08 03:40
DaemonFCout of box would be default configuration from MicrosoftMay 08 03:40
twitterIt counts.May 08 03:40
twitterIt's the way most people have their computersMay 08 03:40
DaemonFCsowhy does Ubuntu get preferential treatment?May 08 03:40
DaemonFCWhy don't they test Dell's configuration?May 08 03:40
twitterThat's the way most people get UbuntuMay 08 03:40
DaemonFCWho gives a fuck what Dell does, that's DellMay 08 03:41
DaemonFCcan Ubuntu stop them?May 08 03:41
twitterThey could, I suppose, but I don't think M$ wants to advertise that Dell comes with UbuntuMay 08 03:41
twitterOr HPMay 08 03:41
twitteror that those models are selling wellMay 08 03:41
twitterha haMay 08 03:41
DaemonFCOEMs mess up XP or Vista far beyond what it's like "out of the box"May 08 03:42
DaemonFCDell even installs a search page hijackerMay 08 03:42
twitterOh well.May 08 03:42
DaemonFCin collaberation with GoogleMay 08 03:42
DaemonFCunfortunately Google is akin to a drive by malware vendorMay 08 03:42
twitterWindows is search page hijacker.May 08 03:42
DaemonFCand they have a huge vested stake in FirefoxMay 08 03:43
DaemonFCthey've already turned Firefox into spywareMay 08 03:43
twitterFF, Konq and other free software browsers let the user configure what search engines they use in a drop down menu on the search itself.May 08 03:43
twitterIceweasel is not spyware.May 08 03:44
DaemonFCFirefox reports to Google what pages you visit and suchMay 08 03:44
DaemonFCthat is spyware in my bookMay 08 03:44
DaemonFCit does it by default without user consentMay 08 03:44
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twitterGoogle knows who visit google and what they search.  They will be spyware by your book, as will any search engineMay 08 03:44
DaemonFCnoMay 08 03:44
DaemonFCthe user gets spied on by googleMay 08 03:45
DaemonFCeven if they don't use GoogleMay 08 03:45
DaemonFCcause the spyware is built-in to FirefoxMay 08 03:45
twitterI doubt this is part of IceweaselMay 08 03:45
twitterso it's not something you need in FF.May 08 03:45
DaemonFCunfortunately most free software is being coopted by the bad guysMay 08 03:45
twitterUt oh, I better run back to Winblows and use their Live Search.  LOLMay 08 03:46
DaemonFChow long do you figure it will be before Ubuntu gives up plunking along with no business plan?May 08 03:47
DaemonFCit's been a loss leader for nearly 5 yearsMay 08 03:47
DaemonFC half of Windows users don't even use IEMay 08 03:48
twitterCanonical is profitable now, I thought.May 08 03:49
DaemonFCnopeMay 08 03:49
DaemonFCShuttleworth is still shoveling his own money in as fast as Canonical can burn itMay 08 03:50
DaemonFChe had this big idea that there would be people flocking to Canonical to buy support contractsMay 08 03:51
DaemonFCand the only Ubuntu server I've seen in the wild are bored teenagers hosting IRC and a personal website on itMay 08 03:51
twitterhe's gotten thatMay 08 03:51
DaemonFCspeaks loads about qualityMay 08 03:51
twitterand he's selling netbooksMay 08 03:51
DaemonFCnot sellingMay 08 03:51
DaemonFCdumpingMay 08 03:52
twitteryou can't dump free softwareMay 08 03:52
DaemonFCthose agreements are to give it away for freeMay 08 03:52
DaemonFCwell, Canonical is a business with no prospects of becoming profitableMay 08 03:52
DaemonFCand without them, there's no UbuntuMay 08 03:52
DaemonFCso the result is the sameMay 08 03:52
twitterdoom and gloom, Linux is deh failrueMay 08 03:52
twitterI don't think so.May 08 03:53
DaemonFCno, it's just stupid to try and make a business in desktop LinuxMay 08 03:53
DaemonFCevery company that tried to do that is either bankrupt of close to itMay 08 03:53
DaemonFCor gave upMay 08 03:53
DaemonFC(Red Hat)May 08 03:53
twitterLets' see.  Xandros sold an OS to ASUS at $5 each.  ASUS expected to sell about 100,000,000 of them.May 08 03:53
twitterthat's not bad money for an 80 person company.May 08 03:54
DaemonFCnobody will sell 100 million copies of XandrosMay 08 03:54
DaemonFCthat's ridiculousMay 08 03:54
twitterhow many EEE PCs have been sold?May 08 03:54
DaemonFCUbuntu dumps free CDs at their expenseMay 08 03:54
DaemonFCand don't even have a tenth that many usersMay 08 03:54
twitterhow do you know?May 08 03:55
DaemonFCthere were about 8 million Ubuntu users late last yearMay 08 03:55
twitterThere are about 100 million desktop users in the US alone.May 08 03:55
DaemonFCfar cry from 100 millionMay 08 03:55
DaemonFCno, I mean 8 million in the worldMay 08 03:55
twitterhow do you know?May 08 03:56
DaemonFCShuttleworth estimated that in an interviewMay 08 03:56
twitterDid you count the dude I met in the coffee shop last week, who's buddy downloaded and installed for him?May 08 03:56
DaemonFChe also said they were "nowhere close" to profitabilityMay 08 03:56
twitterThat interview was at least a year agoMay 08 03:56
DaemonFCMandriva is the only one with a real end user productMay 08 03:57
twitterbreak even was predictedMay 08 03:57
DaemonFCinstead of a loss leader or a developer playgroundMay 08 03:57
DaemonFCand they're firing peopleMay 08 03:57
twitterDebian is what, 15 years old now?May 08 03:57
twitterIt's not going away.May 08 03:57
DaemonFCDebian isn't a companyMay 08 03:57
twitterRight.May 08 03:57
DaemonFCthey operate on donationsMay 08 03:57
twitterwrongMay 08 03:57
DaemonFCtotally different conceptMay 08 03:57
DaemonFCnobody would donate to CanonicalMay 08 03:58
DaemonFCcause they're a companyMay 08 03:58
twitterpeople are going to get their work done with free software because it works better.May 08 03:58
DaemonFCif I give things out for free, lots od people will take oneMay 08 03:58
DaemonFCif I ask for even the smallest amount of money, they'd all run awayMay 08 03:58
twitterCanonical can go out of business or do like Red Hat, it does not matter.  The community will get the work done and they don't mind sharing the result.May 08 03:59
DaemonFCno, there's really no reason for Ubuntu to existMay 08 03:59
DaemonFCother than to be a corporate clone of DebianMay 08 03:59
DaemonFCI doubt it would live on past Shuttleworth's direct financingMay 08 03:59
twitterthere's not reason people should not do that eitherMay 08 03:59
DaemonFCit would be a better use of time and effort to really contribute to DebianMay 08 04:00
twitterYou probably thought Red Hat would fail too.May 08 04:00
DaemonFCinstead of jsut repackaging their stuffMay 08 04:00
DaemonFCand making it brownMay 08 04:00
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:00
DaemonFCRed Hat is credibleMay 08 04:00
DaemonFCthey are profitable and growing rapidlyMay 08 04:00
DaemonFCthey're doing something right that Canonical isn't copyingMay 08 04:00
twitterand Canonical is not?  why because they have "brown" wallpaper?May 08 04:01
DaemonFCUbuntu is just a meaningless forkMay 08 04:01
DaemonFCit exists to give Canonical direct controlMay 08 04:01
twitterwhateverMay 08 04:01
twitterYou are easy to please when it comes to Windows and hard to please when it comes to commercial GNU/Linux.May 08 04:01
DaemonFCmeh, Windows doesn't make any false pretenses about what it isMay 08 04:02
DaemonFCor why it existsMay 08 04:02
DaemonFCMy way of thinking is that Ubuntu would disappear if users had to pay even $15 for itMay 08 04:03
DaemonFCit would be like me saying "I have a free car, it's underpowered and has no air conditioning, but it is free"May 08 04:04
DaemonFCthey've just done a lot of really awful/stupid things that I thoroughly disagree withMay 08 04:04
DaemonFCthey're becoming the Microsoft of desktop LinuxMay 08 04:05
DaemonFCin the fact that all software is ignoring that other distributions exist and saying "Fuck it, it runs on Ubuntu"May 08 04:05
twitterUsers have already paid $15 for Ubuntu, via OEM price.May 08 04:05
DaemonFCno, it's freeMay 08 04:06
twitterIt's cheaper than Winblows.May 08 04:06
DaemonFCthey never got paid for thatMay 08 04:06
twitternot zero costMay 08 04:06
DaemonFCDell doesn't pay Ubuntu anythingMay 08 04:06
DaemonFCthey only spam the support contractsMay 08 04:06
twitterShow me.May 08 04:06
DaemonFCyou may be paying for codec and patent licensingMay 08 04:06
DaemonFCbut ubuntu isn't making moneyMay 08 04:06
twitterbullshitMay 08 04:06
DaemonFCDell bundles DVD softwareMay 08 04:07
DaemonFCand mpeg decodersMay 08 04:07
DaemonFCyou are paying license and patent feesMay 08 04:07
DaemonFCotherwise they would be suedMay 08 04:07
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DaemonFCUbuntu has a pile of pirate codecsMay 08 04:07
DaemonFCbut they don't bundle themMay 08 04:07
DaemonFCthat makes Ubuntu legal to distributeMay 08 04:07
DaemonFC:PMay 08 04:08
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DaemonFCit just gives you a stern talking to that it's illegal to use the Ubuntu codec packages in most countriesMay 08 04:08
DaemonFCand you *wink wink* agree you don't live in any of themMay 08 04:08
DaemonFCbut Dell is a US company doing business in said countriesMay 08 04:09
DaemonFCso they can't weasel out of the licensing that wayMay 08 04:09
DaemonFCso when you buy a Dell with Ubuntu, you paid MPEG LA a license feeMay 08 04:09
DaemonFCso if you buy a Dell Ubuntu system you are directly financing the patent and licensing people you claim to want to overthrowMay 08 04:10
DaemonFCwhich means you may as well have bought WindowsMay 08 04:11
DaemonFCbecause "ethically" there's no differenceMay 08 04:11
DaemonFCand there's no option to buy a Dell Ubuntu system without MPEG LA's licensing crap or the official codecs eitherMay 08 04:11
twitterWhat's a "pirate codec"?May 08 04:12
DaemonFCwell, Ubuntu's codecs are illegalMay 08 04:12
DaemonFCthat's why Ubuntu doesn't come with themMay 08 04:13
twitterare you telling me that morally wrong to use mpeg without paying a fee?  LOLMay 08 04:13
DaemonFCyou are breaking the law when you download Ubuntu's codec packMay 08 04:13
twitterbullshitMay 08 04:13
twitterDebian has codecs, they are legal.May 08 04:13
DaemonFCyes, you are illegally downloading themMay 08 04:13
DaemonFCsame as getting Windows off the Pirate BayMay 08 04:13
DaemonFCnopeMay 08 04:13
DaemonFCdebian-multimedia.org is not a Debian projectMay 08 04:14
twitterI don't use that and things workMay 08 04:14
DaemonFCthose codecs are still illegalMay 08 04:14
twitterbullshitMay 08 04:14
DaemonFCit's illegal under US, UK, Canadian, and other various lawMay 08 04:14
twitterand you did not answer the moral questionMay 08 04:14
DaemonFCto use thoseMay 08 04:14
DaemonFCyou are violating the lawMay 08 04:14
twittersays you.May 08 04:15
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:15
DaemonFCsays UbuntuMay 08 04:15
DaemonFCthey even warn you it's illegal in a lot of countriesMay 08 04:15
twittershow me the FSLC pageMay 08 04:15
twitterand tell me how Debian distributes "illegal" codecs.May 08 04:15
DaemonFCDebian doesn'tMay 08 04:15
DaemonFCdebian-multimedia.org distributes illegal codecsMay 08 04:16
twitterthen how do I get to watch most all formats without degian-mm in my apt?May 08 04:16
twittereh?May 08 04:16
DaemonFCthe codecs you get from Ubuntu are legally the same as downloading Windows from The Pirate BayMay 08 04:16
twitteror rape murdering you kittens?May 08 04:16
DaemonFCMPEG and Windows codecs are illegalMay 08 04:16
twitterpiracy?May 08 04:16
DaemonFCunless you pay to license themMay 08 04:16
twitterarrrrrr!May 08 04:17
DaemonFCthe only exception is the Fluendo Codec PackMay 08 04:17
DaemonFC::)May 08 04:17
twitterhand me your booty, bungholer!May 08 04:17
DaemonFCI'm just saying that using Ubuntu's "Restricted Extras" package is just as illegal as getting Windows off The Pirate BayMay 08 04:17
twitterI think you need to reexamine your ethics, so that later you do not regret the things you do and say.May 08 04:17
DaemonFCand it's trueMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCyou may not like the lawMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCthat doesn't mean you're not violating itMay 08 04:18
twitterand you may not know the lawMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCUbuntu even says not to use them if you're in the USMay 08 04:18
twitterI think Debian knows better than you.May 08 04:18
DaemonFCas soon as you click to download themMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCthere's a free MP3 codec that's legalMay 08 04:18
DaemonFCFluendo'sMay 08 04:19
DaemonFCthat's about itMay 08 04:19
DaemonFChttp://blog.canonical.com/?p=37May 08 04:19
DaemonFC"These users should also be allowed legal DVD and media playback and so we have built a way of letting them do this."May 08 04:19
DaemonFC"We cannot ship codecs through the distro, as they are not free to redistribute."May 08 04:20
DaemonFC:)May 08 04:20
DaemonFChttp://ostatic.com/blog/canonical-opens-codec-sales-and-potential-can-of-worms#rssMay 08 04:20
twitterthey are talking about DeCSS, which is against US law to distribute.  That's not Mpeg.  You need to be specific.May 08 04:20
DaemonFC"Realistically, of course, a far greater percentage of Linux users would do what is done presently. They have computers, they have media -- and they want to use them. These users would continue to install the codecs despite local laws prohibiting their use."May 08 04:21
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:21
DaemonFCMPEG is likewise coveredMay 08 04:21
twitterbullshitMay 08 04:21
DaemonFCand it's not DeCSSMay 08 04:21
twitterexactly.May 08 04:21
DaemonFCthe code3cs also have to be legally purchasedMay 08 04:21
DaemonFCnot just the DVD decryptionMay 08 04:21
DaemonFCyou can go find illegal codecs and illegal things like libdvdcssMay 08 04:22
twitterI think you are confused.  I'm able to watch YouTube with nothing but Debian.May 08 04:22
DaemonFCand those wilol workMay 08 04:22
DaemonFCbut they're illegalMay 08 04:22
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:22
twitteryou don't think?May 08 04:22
DaemonFCDebian has SWFDECMay 08 04:22
twitterI've got clive and vlc, straight out of the box, it works.May 08 04:22
DaemonFCVLC is illegalMay 08 04:22
twitterI can also use gnash, which works fine too.May 08 04:23
twitterDebian's version of VLC does not violate US laws.May 08 04:23
DaemonFCmost distros rip out libdvdcss or remove the illegal codecsMay 08 04:23
DaemonFCthen give you VLCMay 08 04:23
twitterI'd rather use theora anyway.May 08 04:23
twitterthat's basically what these stupid laws drive people to.May 08 04:23
DaemonFCUbuntu can play the most popular non-free media formats, including DVD, MP3, Quicktime, Windows Media, and more by following the instructions below. If this seems like unnecessary work, remember that Ubuntu is a distribution of free software and these packages are (at least arguably) affected by patents and license restrictions in some countries.May 08 04:24
DaemonFChttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormatsMay 08 04:24
DaemonFCLegal Notice Patent and copyright laws operate differently depending on which country you are in. Please obtain legal advice if you are unsure whether a particular patent or restriction applies to a media format you wish to use in your country.May 08 04:24
DaemonFC:)May 08 04:24
DaemonFCdisclaimer followed by illegal codecsMay 08 04:25
DaemonFCyayMay 08 04:25
DaemonFCit's the same as Limewire making you click something that says you won't download unlicensed MP3s with itMay 08 04:26
DaemonFCthen you go off and download unlicensed MP3sMay 08 04:26
twitteryou should use the correct term, "share"May 08 04:27
DaemonFCno, both are illegalMay 08 04:27
DaemonFCso some people turn off their shares to make it less likely they'll be caughtMay 08 04:27
twitterlimewire and other p2p programs don't "download" they shareMay 08 04:28
twitterthere's a differenceMay 08 04:28
DaemonFCthat's like making sure you tie your shoes so you don't trip over the laces on your way out with a stolen TV setMay 08 04:28
twitterand you should be specificMay 08 04:28
twitterno, it's like sharing vrs watching TVMay 08 04:28
twitterthe user also uploadsMay 08 04:28
twitterit's the protocolMay 08 04:28
DaemonFCtechnicalitiesMay 08 04:29
DaemonFCit's the same argument the gun nuts useMay 08 04:29
DaemonFCevery time a school is shot upMay 08 04:29
DaemonFC"That's not the only use for it"May 08 04:29
twitterfalse analogyMay 08 04:30
twitterbe specificMay 08 04:30
twitterand accurateMay 08 04:30
twitteror you will look like an idiot :)May 08 04:30
DaemonFCLimewire is just surfing around on a technicality even though in practice, it's nothing but viruses, kiddie porn, and unlicensed musicMay 08 04:30
twitterfile sharing has created the greatest public libraries in existence.May 08 04:31
twitterif all YOU get out of them is porn and top 40 music, that's your loss.May 08 04:31
DaemonFCLimewire is at least amusing sometimes when people put their bank statements and tax returns in their sharesMay 08 04:31
DaemonFC:)May 08 04:31
DaemonFCso where are the books?May 08 04:32
DaemonFCthose are licensed too you know?May 08 04:32
DaemonFCnot that I've seen any on thereMay 08 04:32
DaemonFCyou're not going to find any great literary masterpieces on LimewireMay 08 04:32
DaemonFC:PMay 08 04:32
twittersee project gutenberg for booksMay 08 04:33
twitterbut music and movies are also part of your cultural heritageMay 08 04:33
DaemonFCno, they're "content"May 08 04:33
DaemonFC:PMay 08 04:33
twitteryou can see plenty of both at archive.org, which also has a nifty book collectionMay 08 04:33
DaemonFCof course it all sounds the samerMay 08 04:33
DaemonFCso who cares?May 08 04:33
twitter"content" is an insult to creatorsMay 08 04:33
DaemonFChehMay 08 04:34
twitterlet's see you do betterMay 08 04:34
DaemonFCwell, if the RIAA was abusing the artists, they wouldn't sign agreements, drive sports cars, live in mansions, and use cocaineMay 08 04:34
twitterif it's all the same, why bother licensing and restricting?May 08 04:34
DaemonFCso I doubt they're getting screwedMay 08 04:34
twitterRead Courtney Love's account of the deal.May 08 04:35
twitterhttp://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/May 08 04:35
twitterthat article is 9 years old and things have gotten worse, not better.May 08 04:36
twitterdo you know any musicians?May 08 04:36
DaemonFCmehMay 08 04:40
DaemonFCThere won't be any chance of displacing patent encumbered formats until you can give people easy access toequal or better formatsMay 08 04:40
DaemonFCand that would mean people getting over their anti-Windows tic enough to push free software, on WindowsMay 08 04:41
DaemonFCeventually there wouldn't be any reason to stayMay 08 04:41
DaemonFCyou notice that bands are bypassing the recording labels and releasing straight into FLAC sometimes?May 08 04:44
DaemonFCthat's a good thingMay 08 04:44
DaemonFCeven Microsoft uses ogg VorbisMay 08 04:45
twitterthere is already no reason to use WindowsMay 08 04:45
DaemonFCthere are someMay 08 04:46
twitterI have noticed the failure of record lablesMay 08 04:46
twittername one good reason to use Windows that overcomes it's massive disavantagesMay 08 04:46
DaemonFCThere are still some entire classes of hardware that Linux still fails to supportMay 08 04:46
DaemonFCbut that's narrowingMay 08 04:46
twitterwhat task does that prevent you from accomplishing?May 08 04:47
DaemonFCUsing a $150 piece of hardwareMay 08 04:47
DaemonFCusing a $70 piece of hardwareMay 08 04:47
DaemonFCand using a $50 piece of hardwareMay 08 04:47
twitterwhy would I care, if a $10 piece of hardware does the job?May 08 04:48
DaemonFCno compatibility with Ustream, no compatibility with voice and video calls on Yahoo or WLMMay 08 04:48
twitterI can use Ekiga and gnugatewayMay 08 04:48
twitteror kde's IM for video chatMay 08 04:48
twitterWhile commercial phone makers are turning to free software, I'm afraid you will have to do better than that.May 08 04:49
DaemonFCKopete doesn't support thatMay 08 04:49
DaemonFCtried itMay 08 04:49
twitterworks with my webcamMay 08 04:51
twitterthough I have yet to try it with an actual MSN user.  they are so rare these daysMay 08 04:51
DaemonFCit doesn't even open anything when I try to use itMay 08 04:51
twitterdoes your webcam work?May 08 04:51
DaemonFCyeah, in GNOMEMay 08 04:51
twitteryou should see an image with kopete when you use it.May 08 04:51
DaemonFCdoesn't seem to work with anything in KDEMay 08 04:52
twitteryou need to fix that by adjusting the device used.May 08 04:52
DaemonFCI didMay 08 04:52
twitterI'm not sure where Fedora keeps that info.May 08 04:52
twitteror why my particular camera works with Debian.May 08 04:52
DaemonFCUVC webcams work alright with DebianMay 08 04:53
twitterbut the blanket statement, "you can't do video phone" with gnu/linux is false.May 08 04:53
DaemonFCyou canMay 08 04:53
DaemonFCbut people don't know what Ekiga isMay 08 04:53
DaemonFCand won't download itMay 08 04:53
twitterthey probably turn to Skype, which works but is not free software.May 08 04:54
twitterCompanies will deploy the free thing before they bother with Skype, we should hope.May 08 04:54
DaemonFCnoMay 08 04:54
DaemonFCcompanies deploy whatever works well enough to useMay 08 04:54
DaemonFCmost big companies go with WindowsMay 08 04:56
DaemonFCit's basically it's own standardMay 08 04:56
twitterYou might as well have said most big companies go with Vista.May 08 04:58
twitterit's basically broken.May 08 04:59
twitterthe future is undecided.May 08 04:59
twitterbut it won't be WindowsMay 08 04:59
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twitterporn star wants to censor US internet http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/CanadaWorld/2009/05/07/9382071.htmlMay 08 05:25
twitterthe guy wearing diapers probably agreed, if he knew what the internet was.May 08 05:26
twittermy home state, shame.May 08 05:26
twitterhey look, M$ is a market leader again.  http://www.google.com/finance?q=NASDAQ:MSFTMay 08 05:31
twitterback under their $20 rock.May 08 05:31
twitteras banks and government spending dry up, they go broke.May 08 05:31
twitterthe rest of us get to go freeMay 08 05:32
twittergood bye to bad rubbishMay 08 05:32
twitterhere's an astroturfing effort that has come back to haunt those who perpetuated it http://www.prwatch.org/node/8367May 08 05:35
twitterbetter to resign than lie for othersMay 08 05:36
twitterthey will leave you hanging if people get angry about it.May 08 05:36
twitterha ha, another Windows 7 sucks benchmarkMay 08 05:45
twitterhttp://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/07/1338206May 08 05:45
twitterstill slower than XP, which itself is shit compared to GNU/Linux.May 08 05:46
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twitterthat makes Windows 7 third or fourth rate, behind XP, Linux and Mac, and essentially equal to Vista.May 08 05:47
oiaohmLinux will get faster.May 08 05:48
oiaohmAnd it will get lighter too.May 08 05:48
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twitterI'm pleasantly surprised by the speed up offered by 2.6.26May 08 05:54
twitterit took a while for me to figure out power management under it but that seems to work well for me now.May 08 05:55
twitterit comes with the added benefit of on demand performance management, which is good for battery life.May 08 05:56
twitterKpower save has a nifty little demonstration of the stepping.May 08 05:56
twittermy current "scheme" is performance dynamic.May 08 05:57
twittermy CPU runs at 800 MHz most of the time and this speed is displayed as a bar.May 08 05:57
twittermoving the window makes the CPU jump to 1200 MHz.May 08 05:58
twittersimple activity, like typing does not trip it as much depending on the application.May 08 05:59
oiaohmThere is only better to come twitter.May 08 05:59
twitterpidgin trips it, but gnome-terminal does notMay 08 05:59
twittereven tough gnome-terminal uses transparency.  funnyMay 08 05:59
oiaohmksm basicallly compressing ram so more applications fits in it.   Better locking so more time in idling.May 08 06:00
oiaohmBetter video card management.May 08 06:00
twitterbetter is nice, I was happy with what I had 8 yeas ago.May 08 06:00
oiaohmThese are all going to give savings.May 08 06:00
twitterYes, it's been a fun ride.May 08 06:00
oiaohmThe big stuff has not happened yet.May 08 06:01
twitteroh yeah, better video card support is something that should come out of ATI and Intel these days.May 08 06:01
oiaohmIntel having hell.May 08 06:01
oiaohmNew dri2 uxa driver is faster just it has card issues.May 08 06:01
oiaohmFrom intel ie it works with some cards not others.May 08 06:02
twitterVista failure hurt everyone, now comes the depression and all the OEMs are scrambling for the next big thing.May 08 06:02
oiaohmVista was made a failure.May 08 06:02
twitterIntel will sink unless they can start making competitive chips and quit hanging on Winblows.May 08 06:02
oiaohmif netbooks had not taken off the same old cycle would have happend again.May 08 06:03
twitterhow was Vista made a failure?May 08 06:03
twitterbesides being horrible?May 08 06:03
oiaohmVista was made with the Idea that computers would just get more powerful.May 08 06:03
twitterDRM ridden.May 08 06:03
oiaohmAlso in the idea that MS competition was not strong enough to cause problems.May 08 06:03
twittercomputers did get more powerfulMay 08 06:03
oiaohmnetbooks are about 5 to 8 year old tech.May 08 06:03
twitterthat did not fix VistaMay 08 06:03
twittersure, my laptop is from 2002.May 08 06:04
twitterworks greatMay 08 06:04
oiaohmThat is the problem.May 08 06:04
twitteras long as you don't use WindowsMay 08 06:04
oiaohmThe market stalled.May 08 06:04
oiaohmCPU makers hit the limit of power they could put in a single core as well.May 08 06:04
twitterVista failed because it was horribly broken, this happened long before the current crisis happened.May 08 06:05
twitterIn the last couple of years Vista has still not been fixed.May 08 06:05
oiaohmVista would have been a minor bump like win95(xp) to win98(vista) to win98se(windows 7) without the Linux presures.May 08 06:06
oiaohmRemember Win98 never got fully fixed twitterMay 08 06:06
twitterNo, there was significant Linux pressure in 98 too.May 08 06:06
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oiaohmNot really.May 08 06:06
oiaohmI was using Linux in 98.May 08 06:06
oiaohmConfiguring a Linux desktop back then was hell on earth.May 08 06:07
twitterIt's been a steady build.  I had Red Hat in 98 myselfMay 08 06:07
oiaohmCompared to now.May 08 06:07
twitterRed Hat was no harder to configure than 98.May 08 06:07
oiaohmEven to 98May 08 06:07
twitterThere was just less hardware that worked.May 08 06:07
oiaohmThat was the issue.May 08 06:07
oiaohmBasically unless you had some rare combindation of hardware Linux was a paper weight to you.  Basically no threat.May 08 06:08
twitterNot really.May 08 06:08
oiaohmThis has changed.May 08 06:08
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twitterI had some fairly common hardware that worked just fine, Cyrix systems.  ha haMay 08 06:08
oiaohmtwitter: I lived with it.  Printers that would not work.  Scanners.May 08 06:09
twitterHP worked fine.May 08 06:09
oiaohmEven some HP's did not.May 08 06:09
twitterscsi scanners worked.May 08 06:09
oiaohmBack then.  I know I got a HP scanner and printer in 1996 that only started working with Linux in 1999May 08 06:09
oiaohm2 months latter the printer died.May 08 06:09
twittermy point is that M$ has had to waste significant effort fighting GNU/Linux even back then.  Witness ACPI.May 08 06:10
twitterLook how much change for change sake there's been in hardware.May 08 06:10
oiaohmMost of the MS effort back then was angaist the server side.May 08 06:10
twitterThe result is a mess that not even M$ could keep up with.May 08 06:10
oiaohmsamba was kicking the nuts out of NT.May 08 06:10
oiaohmOn scaleablity.May 08 06:10
twitterVista is like M$ Word.May 08 06:11
twitterIt's got so many kludges to work around so much sabotage that it's a miracle it works at all.May 08 06:11
oiaohmServer side attack has not started yet.May 08 06:11
twitterIt won't either because no one is going to set aside stuff that works and is free to scale for Winblows crap.May 08 06:12
oiaohmOnce linux is attacking MS on desktop and server we will see some reallly big pain from MS.May 08 06:12
twitterThey did try parking domains and an attack on web servers.  The companies that bought into selling you $100/month web pages all bankrupted.May 08 06:12
twitterGNU/Linux is already THE option for your desktop.May 08 06:13
twitterIt has been for a long time.May 08 06:13
oiaohmBusiness desktop.May 08 06:13
oiaohmIts lacking a few things.May 08 06:13
twitterThat too.May 08 06:13
twitterlike what?May 08 06:14
twitterbesides M$ Word. ha haMay 08 06:14
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oiaohmGood central mangement of clients.May 08 06:14
twitterLike what, Xen?May 08 06:14
oiaohmADS many not be great but its part way there.May 08 06:14
twitterRed Hat has plenty of client management toolsMay 08 06:14
oiaohmRedhat is working on freeipa to close the gap on ADS.May 08 06:15
twitterI've seen them used in computer labs.  It's so much easier than Winblows.May 08 06:15
twitterWinblows is as painful as you can get, so that's not really an area you can say GNU/Linux lacks.May 08 06:15
oiaohmtwitter: there is 1.May 08 06:15
oiaohmIt will be covered by freeipa.orgMay 08 06:16
twitterI'm still waiting for itMay 08 06:16
twitterGNU/Linux desktop uniformity is also much better than Winblows, which has yet to have a sane /home directory.May 08 06:16
oiaohmhttp://freeipa.org/page/AboutMay 08 06:17
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twitterin a business setting, you actually get to see your desktop and settings wherever you log on.May 08 06:17
oiaohmCentral server intergration GNU/Linux is also not that great.May 08 06:17
twitterCan I tell you how painful setting up every Winblows desktop is for users?May 08 06:17
oiaohmcachefs coming in future kernels address a major segement of that.May 08 06:17
oiaohmSo you don't do it my way from a script in the ADS server twitterMay 08 06:18
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oiaohmSet up machine connect it to domain and all the software the machine should have gets dumped on it.May 08 06:18
twitteror you could use LTSPMay 08 06:19
oiaohmSame with removing and updating software.May 08 06:19
twittereight years agoMay 08 06:19
oiaohmLTSP does not work with laptops.May 08 06:19
oiaohmWhat I have does.May 08 06:19
twitterwhy not?May 08 06:19
oiaohmThey disconnect from network and still want applications of course.May 08 06:19
twitterupdating software is something GNU/Linux distributions have done well for yearsMay 08 06:19
oiaohmUpdating yes.May 08 06:20
twitterand Winblows is still horrible with.May 08 06:20
oiaohmmanaging what software is on what machine not great.May 08 06:20
oiaohmI run something equal to a GNU repo system on windows.May 08 06:20
twitterOh come on.  How hard can it be to have custom packages on a local repo that configure everything perfectly?May 08 06:20
oiaohmMy script looks a machine name.May 08 06:21
oiaohmmatchs machine name against profile.May 08 06:21
twitterYou can run that on Windows, like I can drive down the street with cinder block tires.May 08 06:21
twitterlolMay 08 06:21
oiaohmAppies applications that are in profile to machine.May 08 06:21
oiaohmRemoves any that should not be.May 08 06:21
oiaohmNice central management.May 08 06:21
twitterthat's what package management doesMay 08 06:22
oiaohmAutomatically actives as soon as the machine joins the domain.May 08 06:22
twitterwhat is "join the domain"?May 08 06:22
oiaohmI don't have to configure the machine anywhere other than the central server in the domain.May 08 06:22
oiaohmThis is central management.May 08 06:22
twitterplease don't tell me it's some kind of Samba thing.May 08 06:23
oiaohmNo it a ADS design thing Samba cannot do yet.May 08 06:23
oiaohmIts group policies.May 08 06:23
twitteryou are using M$ networking?May 08 06:23
oiaohmYou asked where the difference is.May 08 06:23
oiaohmClose that difference MS networking has nothing.May 08 06:24
twitterIt would probably be easier for you to manage your network by booting a small GNU/Linux distribution to download Windows image files.May 08 06:24
oiaohmNoMay 08 06:24
oiaohmWindows images cause more hell than you can dream.May 08 06:24
twitterYou will still have to go deal with registry settings and other licensing issues on each machineMay 08 06:24
oiaohmNopMay 08 06:24
twitterbut that's the non free software worldMay 08 06:24
oiaohmVolume licenceMay 08 06:24
oiaohmForm of centrally managed.May 08 06:24
twitterfor each vendor?  nfwMay 08 06:25
oiaohmGets mess with numbers of vendors.May 08 06:25
twitterXen might do it but, you know, that's GNU/LinuxMay 08 06:25
oiaohmBut registry settings and any other alteration can be done central.May 08 06:25
oiaohmYou can edit each machines registry from the central server.May 08 06:25
twitterso M$ gets to nuke other vendors from orbit.  no thanksMay 08 06:26
oiaohmEven samba can edit other windows machine registrys when its central server.May 08 06:26
oiaohmMost people have no clue how much a Windows network is designed to be centrally controlled.May 08 06:26
twitterIf this is your magic reason to use Windows, I'm not convinced.  Free software is easier to manage than all of that.May 08 06:26
twitterI've seen how Windows network management really works.  I did it for a bank and it was hell.May 08 06:27
oiaohmI have had people have hell with it.May 08 06:27
twitterAll the design you might want to promise flew out the window when it came to the nitty gritty world of non free software competition.May 08 06:27
oiaohmThe thing is supper powerful don't use right bites big time.May 08 06:28
twitterLike you said, "Gets mess with numbers of vendors."  That spoils the whole party because Windows without those vendors is perfectly worthless.May 08 06:28
twitterIt's non free software hellMay 08 06:29
oiaohmWhen Linux has freeipa to do same management roles like controlling what machines have what applications and what users can use what applications.May 08 06:29
twitterGNU/Linux already has tools like that.May 08 06:29
twitterI could roll my own if they did not.May 08 06:29
oiaohmYou have to roll your own to do lots of it still.May 08 06:30
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twitterThat's not hard and I'm sure IBM, Red Hat and others will sell it to you if you don't want to do it yourself.May 08 06:30
oiaohmLot of GNU/Linux stuff is setup great for a single machine.May 08 06:30
oiaohmRedhat building freeipa does that not tell you something.May 08 06:30
oiaohmThere is a feature hole.May 08 06:31
twitterDude, people have been running clusters forever.May 08 06:31
oiaohmcluster are noramally what you call single image machines.May 08 06:31
oiaohmSo every that they are many machines they are really just a single machine.May 08 06:31
twitterThe tools to configure hundreds or thousands of individual computers in that cluster have been around for a long time.  It's not that much different from configuring desktops.May 08 06:32
oiaohmThey are different.May 08 06:32
oiaohmClusters have 1000's of machines with exactly the same software on them.May 08 06:32
oiaohmI am talking about when you have a network were different machines have to have different software configurations.May 08 06:32
oiaohmFor different users.May 08 06:33
twitteror you have two or three different clusters with identical software.  You know, one for accounting, one for engineering....May 08 06:33
oiaohmTools for that are lacking.May 08 06:33
oiaohmfreeipa will fill that gap when it gets to version 2.May 08 06:33
twitterlet's see.  I've run a debian mirror.  If I wanted, I could make an "accounting desktop" meta package that that would set up accountants.May 08 06:34
oiaohmGap has basically been caused by Linux low desktop uses.May 08 06:34
twitterthis is not rocket science.May 08 06:34
oiaohmWhat happens when a engineering user need that machine because a engineering maching broke.May 08 06:34
twitterLowes has had IBM desktop GNU/Linux for what, five years now?May 08 06:34
oiaohmMagic of ADSMay 08 06:34
twitterbullshit.May 08 06:35
oiaohmSince a enginerring user sat a machine ADS can offer up enginerring software to be installed.May 08 06:35
oiaohmThat will be removed.May 08 06:35
oiaohmWhen the enginerring user logs out.May 08 06:35
twitterWhy remove it?May 08 06:35
oiaohmThis is using ADS to its max most places don't.May 08 06:35
oiaohmBecause its not normally required on that machine twitterMay 08 06:35
oiaohmAnd staying there would be wasteful on licences and the like.May 08 06:36
twitterFor occasional use, it would probably be easier to serve the application over the network anyway.May 08 06:36
twitterThat's something Windows sucks at.May 08 06:36
oiaohmNot all applications will work that way.May 08 06:36
oiaohmEven on Linux.May 08 06:36
twitterCitrix is the best they can do and it blowsMay 08 06:36
oiaohmCAD's have hell over network.May 08 06:36
twitterWell then you apt-get install CADMay 08 06:37
twitterfive minutes later, your machine is up.May 08 06:37
oiaohmUser need root to do that.May 08 06:37
oiaohmOr I have to be there.May 08 06:37
oiaohmThe magic of ADS I don't have to be there.May 08 06:37
twitterno they don't and no you don't.  You can just ssh into it.May 08 06:37
oiaohmThe server know the user is allowed.May 08 06:37
oiaohmSo it does it.May 08 06:37
twitterAll vapor.May 08 06:38
oiaohmssh into it still requires my time.May 08 06:38
oiaohmI run ADS this way twitterMay 08 06:38
twitterWhat I've described just works already.May 08 06:38
oiaohmWhat you describe is require me to be there.May 08 06:38
oiaohmFor some events.May 08 06:38
twitteronly if you don't want your engineers installing cadMay 08 06:38
oiaohmWhere ADS the server is handing the events.May 08 06:39
oiaohmIts a small gap twitterMay 08 06:39
oiaohmThe central management server removes the need for system admin to be there when some things go wrong.May 08 06:39
twittersure, it runs itself.  ha haMay 08 06:40
oiaohmSo work still can be done.May 08 06:40
oiaohmOf course it has to be configured twitterMay 08 06:40
twitterWindows is good at making sure people can't get work done for weeks at a time.May 08 06:40
twitterviruses, network problems, broken machines.May 08 06:40
oiaohmSupprisingly I don't have that much.May 08 06:40
*MinceR_ is now known as MinceRMay 08 06:41
oiaohmNot a single virus in my networks in 4 years.May 08 06:41
twitterwhat 25%?May 08 06:41
oiaohmLast network problem was a dead switch.May 08 06:41
twitterthat's not what I've seen in practiceMay 08 06:41
twittersmall firms and large, they must miss your magic.May 08 06:41
oiaohmbroken machines not a major issue to productive since users can sit down at any machine and get there applications.May 08 06:41
oiaohmIt is how well the network is configured.May 08 06:42
twitterOf course, I've seen that M$ has had some of the same issues on their own campus, so I have a very hard time believing you can do better than them.May 08 06:42
oiaohmI also have what I call generical spares.May 08 06:42
*DaemonFC smacks twitter with IronPythonMay 08 06:42
oiaohmLOLMay 08 06:42
twitter"generic spare"?  Is that like a general purpose computer before you put Windows on it?May 08 06:43
oiaohmlast uni campus I went to was using MS own deployment system.May 08 06:43
oiaohmThat this is a lemon.May 08 06:43
oiaohmthis/thingMay 08 06:43
oiaohmReason why I use something script based that works.May 08 06:43
twitteryeah, it deploys Windows.May 08 06:43
twitterlemonMay 08 06:44
oiaohmADS core is good.May 08 06:44
twitterTwitter is sleepy and does not feel like listing to bullshit about how wonderful Windows is.May 08 06:44
twittergood night.May 08 06:44
oiaohmThere software deployment system where everything must be wrapped in a MSI file is trouble.May 08 06:44
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DaemonFCI think the memory use reductions in Windows Display Driver Model 1.1 have more to do with copy restriction than a performance improvementMay 08 06:47
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Omar87Guys, can we say that Linux is the most kernel that obeys the POSIX standard?May 08 07:21
bgtr4does linux like posix?May 08 07:22
Omar87bgtr4: afaik, and as far as I've learned, yes it does.May 08 07:22
DaemonFCI don't really know if that can be saidMay 08 07:23
Omar87bgtr4: However, Windows on the other hand doesn't.May 08 07:23
DaemonFCnobody ever gets their distribution checked against standardsMay 08 07:24
DaemonFCthe line goes "We implement the standards as they make sense"May 08 07:24
DaemonFC:PMay 08 07:24
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bgtr4i always found funny to read logs of irc of last night when i was drunkMay 08 07:36
DaemonFChmmmmMay 08 07:39
DaemonFCPrivoxy isn't badMay 08 07:39
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Omar87What is Privoxy?May 08 08:00
schestowitzGoogle it :-DMay 08 08:01
DaemonFCacts as a local proxy, can filter out ads and all kinds of shitMay 08 08:01
DaemonFCtaakes about 3 megs of RAMMay 08 08:02
DaemonFCnot badMay 08 08:02
bgtr4and is probably capable of substituting ads images with hedgehogsMay 08 08:04
DaemonFCYour User Agent is: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; .NET CLR 3.5.30729)May 08 08:05
DaemonFCwhoaMay 08 08:05
bgtr4whoseMay 08 08:09
schestowitzNew IRC format: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/irc-log-07052009.htmlMay 08 08:10
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DaemonFCYour User Agent is: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US) AppleWebKit/528.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Safari/528.16May 08 08:12
DaemonFChehMay 08 08:12
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bgtr4Your User Agent is: Mozilla/15.2 (compatible; MSIE 12.6; Windows NT 9.3; WOW256; Trident/20.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 5.0.62734)May 08 08:15
bgtr4^check this out, DaemonFCMay 08 08:16
DaemonFCuhhhmMay 08 08:16
DaemonFCkMay 08 08:16
DaemonFChmmm, Safari is seriously fastMay 08 08:16
bgtr4did you clear the cache before checking?May 08 08:17
DaemonFChttp://tinyurl.com/o5mt5bMay 08 08:17
DaemonFCquite a bit faster than FirefoxMay 08 08:18
DaemonFCorders of magnitudes faster than IEMay 08 08:18
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roqqnnnFmIYMay 08 08:19
DaemonFCwtfMay 08 08:19
DaemonFChehMay 08 08:19
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axtl8GAKmWU&feature=channelMay 08 08:26
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DaemonFChmmm, Safari 4 is niceMay 08 08:31
DaemonFChmmm, looks like the new Mac Mini has a real GPUMay 08 08:34
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schestowitzMicrosoft Fragments ODF While Trying to Paint it as “IBM Thing” http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/microsoft-fragments-odf/May 08 08:52
zer0c00lhey schestowitzMay 08 08:53
schestowitzYo, what's new?May 08 08:54
zer0c00lsaw that jupitor broadcasting ,linux fud video and the commentsMay 08 08:54
zer0c00lyou would like to see his tweets http://twitter.com/BryanLASMay 08 08:54
schestowitzRMS has just told me: "Could you contact him and ask if he would like to bring Gnote closerMay 08 08:55
schestowitzto the GNU Project?"May 08 08:55
schestowitzWe should contact HubetMay 08 08:55
schestowitz*HubertMay 08 08:55
zer0c00lohMay 08 08:55
schestowitzHe also says: "Actually, the TomTom case is likely to hasten the abandonment of FAT format, which is a good thing."May 08 08:55
zer0c00lthat guy bryanLAS affiliated with NOVELL?May 08 08:57
schestowitz"@hfiguiere: RMS asked me to contact you and ask if you would like to bring Gnote closer to the GNU Project"May 08 08:58
schestowitzzer0c00l: is he??May 08 08:58
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zer0c00lI dont know,but he talked about MONO in that FUD talkMay 08 08:59
zer0c00lken likes him? http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/05/deja-vu-all-over-again.htmlMay 08 09:02
schestowitzzer0c00l: Mono talk does not mean he's with NovellMay 08 09:03
schestowitzI thought you knew about a real connection.May 08 09:03
schestowitzI know about the Mono thing.May 08 09:03
zer0c00lno, i dont know schestowitzMay 08 09:03
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/05/linux-sucks-fud/comment-page-1/#comment-63187May 08 09:03
zer0c00lthose guys doesn't like RMSMay 08 09:03
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toroshiMay 08 09:14
schestowitzHeyMay 08 09:16
schestowitzzer0c00l: wanna see the video?May 08 09:17
zer0c00lschestowitz, which one?May 08 09:17
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTVe-1Edzy0May 08 09:17
schestowitzArrogant people.May 08 09:17
torosschestowitz: I think you misstyped the name in your notice - http://identi.ca/notice/4062811May 08 09:18
zer0c00lschestowitz, lunaticsMay 08 09:22
schestowitzWe need to have him join forces :-) https://twitter.com/hfiguiereMay 08 09:22
torosyepp :)May 08 09:23
torosidenti.ca is much more fun \o/May 08 09:23
schestowitztoros: yes, i started only with identi.caMay 08 09:27
oiaohmschestowitz: what was the first .net application to be mostly replaced.May 08 09:31
oiaohmIn the Linux world.May 08 09:31
oiaohmits not gnote.May 08 09:31
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oiaohmhttp://beagle-project.org/Main_Page  Its beagle with tracker and others.May 08 09:33
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oiaohmBasically mono developers have a failure to learn.May 08 09:34
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torosby the way, tracker works better than beagleMay 08 09:39
oiaohmSame is true with gnote.May 08 09:39
oiaohmBoth beagle and tomboy have the same problems.May 08 09:40
iwmwoiaohm: what kind of failure to learn?May 08 09:40
oiaohmBeagle got pushed as side for being resource hungry.   Tomboy is being pushed a side for the same reasons.   Focus has not gone in my the mono developers to fix that iwmwMay 08 09:41
DaemonFChttp://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4863/50212588.pngMay 08 09:42
iwmwyeah, it's kinda dumb to develop mono-based apps for notebooksMay 08 09:42
torosOhh, I have a nice Windows 7 screenshot: http://toros.hu/server/shots/windows7-blue.pngMay 08 09:43
toroswith the nice, new, darkblue theme ;)May 08 09:43
DaemonFCmore like "If a program becomes unstable, pray you don't have to yank the cord out of the wall to get the system to shut down"May 08 09:43
DaemonFChttp://img394.imageshack.us/img394/1636/windows7.pngMay 08 09:44
DaemonFCMy Windows 7 shotMay 08 09:44
iwmwis it dead?May 08 09:44
oiaohmSo you found the XP false advertising.May 08 09:44
oiaohmBy that it should be impossable to blue screen of death it.May 08 09:45
DaemonFChttp://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7537/donotwantabh.jpgMay 08 09:45
oiaohmNeed a update.May 08 09:46
oiaohmFor windows 7May 08 09:46
torosclever cats use FreeBSD: http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/i-can-fix-thiz-sorta.jpgMay 08 09:46
DaemonFChttp://img183.imageshack.us/img183/6208/37165486.pngMay 08 09:46
schestowitzMicrosoft Moonlight in the News - http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/microsoft-moonlight-in-the-news/May 08 09:47
DaemonFChehMay 08 09:47
schestowitzoiaohm: I think gnote is first of its kindMay 08 09:47
torosI counted the strings "Microsoft" in an ordinary Novell press release: 12 ;)May 08 09:47
DaemonFCyou kind of have to accept that any operating system will fail at some pointMay 08 09:48
oiaohmtracker was a clone of beagle.May 08 09:48
oiaohmIts not the first.May 08 09:48
oiaohmIts the secound.May 08 09:48
torosoiaohm: It's not really a cloneMay 08 09:48
schestowitzDaemonFC: is it diseased candidate of vista7?May 08 09:48
oiaohmOnly major difference tracker developers went back to scractch and rebuilt where gnote ported.May 08 09:48
torosIt's just another tracker clientMay 08 09:48
DaemonFCschestowitz?May 08 09:48
*toros hates this kind of stuff :(May 08 09:48
torosI mean tracker clientsMay 08 09:49
DaemonFCThat was a leaked Escrow buildMay 08 09:49
oiaohmhttp://projects.gnome.org/tracker/  << That trackerMay 08 09:49
DaemonFCwhoaMay 08 09:49
DaemonFCdamnMay 08 09:49
DaemonFCthis is minimalMay 08 09:49
DaemonFClolMay 08 09:49
oiaohmIt did not exist before beagle toros.May 08 09:49
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DaemonFChehMay 08 09:52
DaemonFCI stripped down Windows XP even smaller than WinFLPMay 08 09:52
oiaohmPersonally I expect gnome do to go the same path.May 08 09:52
torosMacOS X had some kind of built-in tracker clientMay 08 09:52
torosspotlight maybe?May 08 09:52
oiaohm.net developers map out how the application should work.  Then have c or c++ programmer make a clone.May 08 09:53
oiaohmThat works.May 08 09:53
oiaohmMacOS X I think had the feature first.May 08 09:53
torosI like python apps :)May 08 09:54
torosthey work just perfectMay 08 09:55
torosokay, it's not the best choice, where you need performanceMay 08 09:55
torosbut in most cases, it's fast enoughMay 08 09:55
torosand I have very good experiences with python stuffMay 08 09:56
oiaohmpython is a very secure platform to embed in an app.May 08 09:56
torosand they evolve very fastMay 08 09:56
torosmaybe because python source code is very easy to readMay 08 09:57
torosso it's easy to join a projectMay 08 09:57
oiaohmhttp://shed-skin.blogspot.com/ is reallly handy at times when you need performance in some sections of python.May 08 09:57
torosso the projects can involve new contributors pretty easyMay 08 09:58
oiaohmGoogle is workign on making the default python engine at least 5 times faster.May 08 09:59
oiaohmReally the speed difference between mono and python could be reduced to nothing.May 08 10:00
oiaohmThinking that python also contains a bytecode it uses on disk.May 08 10:00
DaemonFChttp://www.sun.com/bigadmin/hcl/data/systems/details/27409.htmlMay 08 10:00
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_Hicham_Hi All:May 08 10:18
MinceRj0May 08 10:18
schestowitzMSN Direct, MSDN Magazine and Other Unnamed Microsoft Divisions Hit by Layoffs < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/msn-direct-msdn-magazine-layoffs/ >May 08 10:20
DaemonFCread about it alreadyMay 08 10:20
DaemonFCthey're not laying off from their profitable divisionsMay 08 10:21
schestowitzYupMay 08 10:21
schestowitzThat's OKMay 08 10:21
DaemonFCthe stuff they're laying people off from has never turned a profitMay 08 10:21
schestowitzI.e. most divisionsMay 08 10:21
schestowitzThey spread their units to pretend to be successfulMay 08 10:21
schestowitzAsk Microsoft'journalistsMay 08 10:21
schestowitzThey put in the basket chunks to balance the lossesMay 08 10:22
_Hicham_hopefully they will lay off their profitable staffMay 08 10:23
_Hicham_like Novell didMay 08 10:23
_Hicham_to speed up their deathMay 08 10:24
_Hicham_I am sick of hearing people talking of Microsoft, aka MicroshitMay 08 10:24
_Hicham_schestowitz : there is no warning in BN when using IEMay 08 10:26
_Hicham_Last time I visited BN with IE I didn't get any warningMay 08 10:27
DaemonFCMicrosoft is laying off the people that should have already been gone recession or notMay 08 10:32
DaemonFClike a year or two agoMay 08 10:32
DaemonFCheh, I managed to get rid of half the files in an XP ISOMay 08 10:33
DaemonFCwithout even deleting anything really importantMay 08 10:34
DaemonFCschestowitz: I thought it was funny that the EU made Microsoft release Windows Edition N citing that people wanted choice and then nobody bought itMay 08 10:36
DaemonFCthe only time I've ever even seen it was when Paul Thurott dug it out to poke at itMay 08 10:37
DaemonFCthe EU is kind of ridiculous, it reminds me of the communists taking over private businessesMay 08 10:37
DaemonFCand running their product line by committeeMay 08 10:37
_Hicham_DaemonFC : check out ReactOS, it runs only with 24MB of RamMay 08 10:38
DaemonFCI do think Microsoft needs to be dealt with, but the hypocrisy is pretty thickMay 08 10:38
DaemonFCthey refuse to do anything about Apple's stranglehold/monopoly on several marketsMay 08 10:39
DaemonFCI mean seriously, how hard would it be for the EU to say "Hey, Microsoft, you need to make IE and Windows Media Player optional components and provide an uninstaller for them"?May 08 10:40
DaemonFCthat sounds pretty reasonableMay 08 10:40
DaemonFCinstead they went the governmentware routeMay 08 10:40
DaemonFCI'm fairly sure that the only people using IE or Windows Media Player are doing it because it's what is there and they don't know any betterMay 08 10:41
DaemonFCso the EU really undermined it's own position with Windows Edition NMay 08 10:42
DaemonFCYou can kind of tell that Windows is the product of government manipulationMay 08 10:43
DaemonFCI think it's why Microsoft has waited so long to give away free antivirus, is because the situation could go Internet Explorer all over againMay 08 10:44
DaemonFChttp://news.cnet.com/Flawed-Symantec-update-cripples-Chinese-PCs/2100-1002_3-6186271.htmlMay 08 10:46
DaemonFClolMay 08 10:46
iwmwwtf... intel is putting its' shitty gfx accelerator into processorMay 08 10:47
iwmwthis yearMay 08 10:47
iwmwhttp://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/smaller_better_faster_intel_hit_with_32nm_cpus_this_yearMay 08 10:48
DaemonFCyeah, the netbook is just a way to regurgitate obsolete hardwareMay 08 10:48
DaemonFCin case you didn't noticeMay 08 10:48
schestowitzMicrosoft in Trouble with the Law Again < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/microsoft-trouble-with-the-law/ >May 08 10:49
schestowitz_Hicham_: open article in ieMay 08 10:50
iwmwwhen they will just put bg into jail and leave it that way?May 08 10:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: Like Bush was going to do anything about tax havens?May 08 10:51
DaemonFCThis is really the first real chance to do something about them since 2000May 08 10:51
DaemonFCthe timing sucks, but it's better now than neverMay 08 10:51
DaemonFC*shrugs*May 08 10:51
DaemonFCI really didn't see how IE is any more obnoxious in 7 than in VistaMay 08 10:55
DaemonFCor XPMay 08 10:55
DaemonFCthey didn't give any specific reason why they think it's acting worseMay 08 10:55
DaemonFCactually, if you turn IE off in XP or Vista it only deletes iconsMay 08 10:57
oiaohmhttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/05/mpaa-teachers-should-video-record-tv-screens-not-rip-dvds.ars  Define insantity.May 08 10:57
DaemonFCbut in 7, it deletes iexplore.exeMay 08 10:57
DaemonFCso you can't even run itMay 08 10:57
DaemonFCsomeone should video tape MPAA executives being waterboardedMay 08 10:59
DaemonFCthat migh actually be entertainingMay 08 10:59
oiaohmDoes it mean every recording in a movie theather is legal.May 08 10:59
oiaohmOr at home.May 08 10:59
DaemonFCwhen they know they're wrong, they pull shit like this outMay 08 11:00
oiaohmIt a slipperly slope.May 08 11:00
DaemonFChehMay 08 11:00
DaemonFCXP shows it's age......May 08 11:00
DaemonFC"When you insert a ZIP(R) disk......"May 08 11:00
DaemonFC:)May 08 11:00
DaemonFCwhen is the last time I saw one of those?May 08 11:01
DaemonFCOh yes, on my uncle's Motorola MacMay 08 11:01
DaemonFCoiaohm: I noticed a thing Microsoft is saying is a feature in 7 that smells like copy restriction/DRMMay 08 11:02
DaemonFCthey were bragging that 7 does not need to shadow the GDI+ resources a displayed window takes in the system memory nowMay 08 11:03
DaemonFCit may well use a little bit less RAMMay 08 11:03
DaemonFCbut it sounds like the primary purpose was to get that out of a spot where a user could dump an unencrypted video stream out to diskMay 08 11:04
DaemonFCagain, when they improve something, there's an ulterior motiveMay 08 11:04
DaemonFCbut it struck me that even when you use compositing in Linux, it behaves much more like Vista in that regardMay 08 11:05
DaemonFCthan like 7May 08 11:05
DaemonFCit's something that *should* be fixed, but Microsoft did it for DRM purposes is what I'm getting atMay 08 11:06
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oiaohmIn what way DaemonFC higher rate of crashes?May 08 10:49
DaemonFCfrankly I think that the return on investment is pretty minimal even if the people working on OpenGL, Compiz Fusion, and Metacity were really all that organizedMay 08 10:49
DaemonFCno, it actually makes for less glitchesMay 08 10:49
oiaohmDepends on video card driver.  I guess Nvidia.May 08 10:49
DaemonFCoddly enough, ATI is the only one that has WDDM 1.1 and DirectX 11 drivers at this pointMay 08 10:50
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schestowitzThe EU commission still refuses my access to docs. Shall I give up? I'm about to do about the the Zuck clan.May 08 11:11
_Hicham_DaemonFC : fuck DirectXMay 08 11:13
_Hicham_have you ever worked with it?May 08 11:13
DaemonFChmmmm, my XP is 2.16 gb installedMay 08 11:14
DaemonFCthat's not horrible I supposeMay 08 11:14
oiaohmHow many applications are in that.May 08 11:14
DaemonFCI just cut out the obvious fluffMay 08 11:14
DaemonFCno MS Agent, no stupid Search DogMay 08 11:14
DaemonFCno Outlook ExpressMay 08 11:14
DaemonFCno Windows Media PlayerMay 08 11:15
iwmwdid you remove games?May 08 11:15
oiaohmI like the Search DogMay 08 11:15
DaemonFCyeahMay 08 11:15
oiaohmSomething I was thinking of porting.May 08 11:15
oiaohmMore like cloning.May 08 11:15
DaemonFCI also removed internationalization shitMay 08 11:15
DaemonFCand other languagesMay 08 11:15
oiaohmSo still way behind on features compared to a Linux install.May 08 11:15
iwmwso pure wxp took 2.16?May 08 11:15
DaemonFCwell, I could have yanked out lots moreMay 08 11:16
schestowitzIntel's Moblin Turns to Ballnux http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/moblin-turns-to-ballnux/May 08 11:16
DaemonFCbut I didn'tMay 08 11:16
iwmwit's unpacked size of mandriva one livecdMay 08 11:16
DaemonFCyou can remove IE, and it's rendering engineMay 08 11:16
DaemonFCthat's a good 170 megsMay 08 11:16
DaemonFCbut then a lot of third party apps will fail spectacularlyMay 08 11:16
DaemonFCso you'll have to install IE anywayMay 08 11:16
schestowitzwhat is this process called ld-linux.so.2 ?May 08 11:17
DaemonFCoh, got rid of Windows Movie MakerMay 08 11:17
schestowitzIt has been hogging my system for daysMay 08 11:17
iwmwschestowitz: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=754944May 08 11:18
DaemonFCthere's also a vLiteMay 08 11:19
DaemonFCI've had some interesting results with that tooMay 08 11:19
DaemonFChttp://mybroadband.co.za/news/Internet/7900.htmlMay 08 11:21
DaemonFCPanda Security launches world’s first free cloud-based antivirusMay 08 11:21
oiaohmHowMay 08 11:22
oiaohmWould not clamav be first.May 08 11:22
DaemonFC"Panda Cloud Antivirus includes local and remote antivirus, anti-spyware, anti-rootkit, heuristics and goodware cache, while only consuming an average of 17 MB of RAM and 50 percent of the PC performance impact as compared to the industry average."May 08 11:22
oiaohmYep taht is abotu right.May 08 11:23
oiaohmo boy.May 08 11:23
iwmwis panda freeware?May 08 11:23
DaemonFCnot their normal productMay 08 11:24
iwmwwtf... "It is extremely light as all the work is done in the cloud."May 08 11:27
benkaischestowitz: some days ago I read of a problem downloading videos from youtube (it was when you helped me to find a Ballmer video (RH users owe us money). Answer: It works just fine here from Firefox on Linux using the DownloadHelper extension (installes an animated button in the Nav Toolbar)May 08 11:28
schestowitzYesMay 08 11:28
schestowitzI had to change tooMay 08 11:28
schestowitzIt still doesn't work sometimesMay 08 11:28
DaemonFCI'm skeptical of this "cloud antivirus"May 08 11:28
schestowitzAhMay 08 11:30
schestowitzStupid acrobat. POSMay 08 11:30
benkaischestowitz: I don't remember DownloadHelper failing on me ever, but did't use it much recently. All youtube vids which I saw recently had official download buttons from youtube provided.May 08 11:30
schestowitzLet's see if my session blow up for killing this processMay 08 11:31
schestowitzfingers crossedMay 08 11:31
schestowitzThat was alrightMay 08 11:32
schestowitzRemember: don't use AcrobatMay 08 11:32
schestowitzI installed it for annotation and stuff. Acrobat-only 'features'May 08 11:32
benkaischestowitz: Of course, never use it. You can use the pdf download extension in firefox to download pdfs (prompts you if you want to download after clicking any pdf link) so you can view it with xpdf, kpdf or evinceMay 08 11:33
_Hicham_schestowitz : do u use acrobat?May 08 11:33
_Hicham_wowMay 08 11:33
_Hicham_who is still using acrobat?May 08 11:33
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_Hicham_ur on KDE right? there is the okularMay 08 11:34
_Hicham_I never liked acrobatMay 08 11:34
_Hicham_even on WindowsMay 08 11:34
DaemonFCI also deleted the entire 16-bit compatibility subsystem :PMay 08 11:34
_Hicham_Foxit Reader have now a working version for LinuxMay 08 11:34
_Hicham_acrobat now have 29Mb without any document openMay 08 11:36
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_Hicham_Adobe should review its ReaderMay 08 11:37
_Hicham_it is getting bloated and slow with every releaseMay 08 11:37
iwmwDaemonFC: that's pretty lollous how anyone can trust the closed source proggy that shares all your files to the "cloud" XDMay 08 11:37
torosis there a free and open source pdf reader for windows?May 08 11:38
iwmwschestowitz: you could replace that file with lsb packageMay 08 11:39
iwmwpdf for windows is paywareMay 08 11:39
benkaitoros: Various: you can install the KDE4 installer for win32 and maybe you can install kpdf using itMay 08 11:40
benkaitoros: or you can install cygwin from cygwin.com and use it to install a Cygwin X-Server for Windows and xpdf, kpdf or whatever for it, the new cygwin 1.7 beta has lots of packages!May 08 11:41
torosbenkai: not for me, I don't use Windows :)May 08 11:41
benkaitoros: glad you are! Me at the moment neither!May 08 11:42
iwmwsure, i forgot about kde for windows even though i have it instsalled at homeMay 08 11:42
benkaianother possiblity is to use a Linux VM (in Virtualbox) or use a Colinux distribution on Windows :)May 08 11:43
torosjust my co-worker has problems with the Adobe PDF ReaderMay 08 11:43
iwmwthere are other free pdf readers but closed sourceMay 08 11:44
torosso I thought there's an easy (and free) sollution for the problemMay 08 11:44
torosbut then she will get a Foxit Reader :)May 08 11:44
torosby the way, I had very good experiences with Windows 7...May 08 11:46
torosIt's crap :DMay 08 11:46
schestowitzhehe. Do a Google search for zuck's full name.. ;-) almost top result.May 08 11:46
torosso we still don't have to affraid of it :)May 08 11:46
toroswhich is a good news for a Free Software activist like meMay 08 11:47
torosIt looks nice, but for example Fedora 11 looks betterMay 08 11:47
torosand they still have this crap start menu with lots of iconsMay 08 11:47
schestowitzVista7 will teach people that MS can make it right even the second time aroundMay 08 11:48
torosinstalling a software is still pain, and uninstalling takes still very long timeMay 08 11:48
oiaohmVista 7 is not right.May 08 11:48
torosand you still need to reboot after installing some softwareMay 08 11:48
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torosI think, now _every_ major desktop Linux-distribution is betterMay 08 11:51
torosand they won't have new OS in the next 3 yearsMay 08 11:51
torosso technically, it's easy to compete with itMay 08 11:52
torosthey just have their market share now, nothing moreMay 08 11:52
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benkaibtw, as a former suse employee (Hovsepian and Ballmer togeter was really the start of the end for me), I want to say something: opensuse is really obsolete, Ubunutu 9.04 is (or maybe, "can" at least be) really amazing! (You've got to try it!)May 08 11:55
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schestowitzbrbMay 08 12:05
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 8 12:09:09 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellMay 08 12:09
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged]May 08 12:09
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008May 08 12:09
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-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelMay 08 12:09
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzMay 08 12:09
DaemonFChttp://whyfirefoxisblocked.wordpress.com/May 08 12:12
DaemonFChehMay 08 12:12
DaemonFCmaking fun of that guy that had whyfirefoxisblocked.com a couple years agoMay 08 12:12
schestowitzhheeMay 08 12:15
schestowitzAt first I thought it's the same due starting a blogMay 08 12:15
_Hicham_vive FirefoxMay 08 12:17
_Hicham_Mozilla did a great jobMay 08 12:17
_Hicham_Firefox will always dominateMay 08 12:17
*liberfiasco is now known as liberviscoMay 08 12:18
_Hicham_because it is the only useful Web BrowserMay 08 12:18
_Hicham_with the largest communityMay 08 12:18
_Hicham_I hate closed source programsMay 08 12:18
DaemonFChttp://vista.blorge.com/2009/05/07/microsoft-rebrands-anti-piracy-technology/May 08 12:19
schestowitzJonathan Zuck < http://www.imdb.de/name/nm1151848/ >May 08 12:21
schestowitzWTF?May 08 12:21
iwmwDaemonFC: what a nice page about firefox blocked XDMay 08 12:22
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DaemonFCadblock plus is kind of weak anywayMay 08 12:25
DaemonFCPrivoxy works with any browserMay 08 12:25
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trmancochromium seems a good piece of software tooMay 08 12:33
trmancoI just don't like the licenseMay 08 12:33
_Hicham_what don't u like in the license trmanco?May 08 12:36
trmancoNot really a BSD fanMay 08 12:36
trmancoit's BSD right?May 08 12:36
*trmanco checks it's license againMay 08 12:36
schestowitzUK-IPO Approves Software Patent as Microsoft and its Lobbies Pressure for Software Patents in EU < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/new-uk-sw-patent/ >May 08 12:36
trmancoyeahMay 08 12:37
schestowitztrmanco: think of it as community/commercial editionMay 08 12:37
trmancoBSD -> http://code.google.com/chromium/terms.htmlMay 08 12:37
schestowitzChrome+Chromium+the 'good' stuff (proprietary)May 08 12:37
schestowitzLike AndroidMay 08 12:37
trmancoI like Chromium/ChromeMay 08 12:37
schestowitzAbout 70% of which is 'open'May 08 12:37
trmancobut the license could have been friendlierMay 08 12:38
DaemonFChttp://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=15782May 08 12:41
_Hicham_I still prefer plain old firefoxMay 08 12:42
_Hicham_never liked chromeMay 08 12:43
_Hicham_tried it on Windows, but I wasn't impressedMay 08 12:43
_Hicham_went back immediately to FirefoxMay 08 12:43
schestowitzGoogle CEO to stay on Apple board < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/24909/1054/ >May 08 12:44
schestowitzSo weird. Yesterday I made only 2 posts in BN and traffic was nonetheless very high. awstats for yesterday: 7256 visits, 34195 pages, 268422 hits, 6.15 GB (excluding bots)May 08 12:47
trmancosafari, no wayMay 08 12:51
schestowitzMS could be lobbying to make this so because it wants to squeeze Google: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/eu_wants_data_breach_law/May 08 12:51
trmanco_Hicham_, the Windows 2.x version is slow as crap... I use a developer version, it's slow from time to time, maybe because of some problem with dns prefetching, it certainly isn't ready, but 1.x is stableMay 08 12:52
schestowitzGoogle's email goes titsup (again) < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/gmail_down/ > Why not a word when Hotmail is down???May 08 12:52
trmancobut I'll just stay with Firefox and Gecko based softwareMay 08 12:52
_Hicham_Gecko can't be replaced that easyMay 08 12:53
_Hicham_Gnome is trying to move away from Gecko, but it is not that easyMay 08 12:53
_Hicham_Epiphany-Webkit crashes a lotMay 08 12:53
schestowitzAttack on rights: "Ireland bucks trend with anti-blasphemy law" http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/feck_it/May 08 12:54
trmancoubuntu shiped Epiphany with GeckoMay 08 12:57
DaemonFCwell god damn itMay 08 13:01
DaemonFC:PMay 08 13:01
torosEpiphany FTW \o/May 08 13:02
torosit's my favorite browserMay 08 13:02
schestowitzSpinola extreme: Will Microsoft Use Google To Boost Its Case In Front Of EC? < http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/419-will-microsoft-use-google-to-boost-its-case-infront-of-the-eu/ >May 08 13:03
schestowitzSo it says they can try to say that IE is a good thing because it fights GoogleMay 08 13:03
schestowitzhttp://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2004/03/15/SunnyBoyMay 08 13:05
schestowitz"In 1997, as a result of signing a consulting contract with Netscape, IMay 08 13:05
schestowitzwas subject to a vicious, deeply personal extended attack by MicrosoftMay 08 13:05
schestowitzin which they tried to destroy my career and took lethal actionMay 08 13:05
schestowitzagainst a small struggling company because my wife worked there. ItMay 08 13:05
schestowitzwas a sideshow of a sideshow of the great campaign to bury NetscapeMay 08 13:05
schestowitzand I’m sure the executives have forgotten; but I haven’t. I shouldMay 08 13:05
schestowitztell that story here sometime so that should my readers discern anMay 08 13:05
schestowitzattitude problem regarding Redmond, it ain’t because I work at Sun.May 08 13:05
schestowitzAlso, it has a funny ending."May 08 13:05
schestowitzI never speak to Bray because he doesn't seem like a most amicable person. Also, I doubt he wishes to talk about anything which he did not write about back then.May 08 13:05
schestowitzIt's already in our Wiki.May 08 13:06
trmancotoros, is does have some nice addonsMay 08 13:08
trmanco:)May 08 13:08
trmancolow memory usage AFAIKMay 08 13:08
DaemonFCI cut 378 megs out of the ISO image for Windows XPMay 08 13:08
*DaemonFC went back and trimmed a little moreMay 08 13:08
schestowitzGirl Arrested after Cursing on 911 Call < http://arkansasmatters.com/content/news/weirdnews/fulltext?cid=219041 > Yes, I know it's old......May 08 13:09
DaemonFCleaving 240 megs not counting a few drivers I needMay 08 13:10
DaemonFC:)May 08 13:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: IDG benchmark says Vista 7 is as fat as Vista?May 08 13:10
schestowitzYour experiences say....?May 08 13:10
schestowitz[sure it depends on specs]May 08 13:10
schestowitzHhee.May 08 13:10
DaemonFCmeh, there's a few ways of gauging performanceMay 08 13:10
schestowitzLet's put both on a quad core PC and say it's all fine :-)May 08 13:10
DaemonFCoverall I'd say it's the same as VistaMay 08 13:11
schestowitzOKMay 08 13:11
schestowitzAs expectedMay 08 13:11
schestowitzOthers measured it tooMay 08 13:11
DaemonFCthe interface is perfkier and uses less RAMMay 08 13:11
schestowitzMS used shills I thinMay 08 13:11
schestowitz*thinkMay 08 13:11
schestowitzThey measured things like networ throughputMay 08 13:11
DaemonFCbut they've compensated for that by bloating and slowing down other thingsMay 08 13:11
DaemonFCI'd call it a washMay 08 13:11
schestowitzMeasure the wrong thing -- classic strategyMay 08 13:11
DaemonFC*perkierMay 08 13:11
schestowitzShow graphsMay 08 13:11
DaemonFCmost users will say it is faster because it feels fasterMay 08 13:12
schestowitzIt looks like VistaMay 08 13:12
schestowitzAero and allMay 08 13:12
schestowitzNew name, more lies and bribes to bloggers...May 08 13:12
DaemonFCwell, gaming performance is the same plus or minus a few percentMay 08 13:12
DaemonFCout of box it has better SATA/RAID driversMay 08 13:13
DaemonFCbut you can add that to Vista with a driver package from Intel or NvidiaMay 08 13:13
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DaemonFCpeople never bother to go find proper drivers, and the ones that came with Vista or XP or whatever  *will* workMay 08 13:13
DaemonFCso what they're doing is benchmarking the ones that come with Vista that may be from 2006May 08 13:15
DaemonFCwith ones in Windows 7 from 2009May 08 13:15
DaemonFCand the driver could have been revised a dozen timesMay 08 13:15
DaemonFCso their benchmark is flawedMay 08 13:15
DaemonFCthe proper thing to do would be to go download the latest chipset drivers from the manufacturer, install them in Vista, THEN compare Vista's performance to Windows 7May 08 13:16
DaemonFCif they did that, the difference would be negligible even in areas like disk throughput where they're seeing Windows 7 ahead by 10-15%May 08 13:17
DaemonFCthat's the difference between a 1.0 driver and 3 years laterMay 08 13:17
torosbenchmarks don't have to do anything we the reallityMay 08 13:17
toros*with the...May 08 13:17
DaemonFCsame with video performanceMay 08 13:17
schestowitzWell, there's wiggling roomMay 08 13:18
DaemonFCthe wa to benchmark that would be to use the latest beta drivers for VistaMay 08 13:18
torosmaybe game benchmarks show the game performance correctlyMay 08 13:18
DaemonFCcompared to whatever they have for 7May 08 13:18
DaemonFCcause that's what they're basing their Win7 driver onMay 08 13:18
torosbut responsibilty, and multitasking performance can't be really measured with testsMay 08 13:18
schestowitzIn general, when companies enter a scientific arena, there are liesMay 08 13:18
schestowitzPhrama is one exampleMay 08 13:18
DaemonFCschestowitz: The difference between Nvidia 182 and 185 Beta can be between 6-15% in some gamesMay 08 13:19
DaemonFCthat's larger than the difference between Win7 and Vista will beMay 08 13:19
DaemonFCthat's why the release notes for most games hound users to get the latest driversMay 08 13:20
DaemonFCit's like a free performance upgrade for the hardware you already haveMay 08 13:20
DaemonFCthough if you wait for the WHQL driver, you're always going to be 6-8 months behindMay 08 13:21
DaemonFC(The ones that come down the Windows Update pipe)May 08 13:21
DaemonFCI think WHQL is more about how much money you've paid Microsoft to sign off on itMay 08 13:22
DaemonFCthan how good or bad the driver isMay 08 13:22
DaemonFCthat's just from using both signed and unsigned driversMay 08 13:23
DaemonFCbrbMay 08 13:23
schestowitzVerbally abuse someone, go to prison. "Prosecutors Want To Give Lori Drew 3 Years In Jail For Symbolic Reasons" < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090507/0402344779.shtml >May 08 13:24
schestowitzIn real capitalism, failed businesses die, but not in the United States. http://techdirt.com/articles/20090507/0355164778.shtmlMay 08 13:25
bgtr4DaemonFC, as good as i know you don't pay for whql certificationMay 08 13:26
bgtr4but rather lose time to get itMay 08 13:26
trmancohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2009-May/005713.htmlMay 08 13:27
schestowitzNotice That Murdoch Is Only Talking About Charging For Content... Not Giving People A Reason To Buy < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090507/1037234781.shtml >May 08 13:28
trmancohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2009-May/005716.htmlMay 08 13:28
schestowitzThanksMay 08 13:29
trmanconpMay 08 13:31
trmancolol -> http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/alpha/9509.1/0006.htmlMay 08 13:36
trmanco"It's a bird..May 08 13:36
trmancoIt's a plane..May 08 13:36
trmancoNo, it's KernelMan, faster than a speeding bullet, to your rescue.May 08 13:36
trmancoDoing new kernel versions in under 5 seconds flat.. "May 08 13:36
DaemonFCbgtr4: Yeah, you do pay Microsoft to sign those driversMay 08 13:37
DaemonFCcause you bought the device from the company that in turn pays Microsoft to sign the driversMay 08 13:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: Windows 7 will actually take up about 25 gigs or so off the batMay 08 13:38
DaemonFCno matter which version you haveMay 08 13:39
DaemonFCcause it installs features that aren't in the version you paid for in case you use Windows Anytime UpgradeMay 08 13:39
oiaohmThat is larger than the adverage Linux install.May 08 13:39
schestowitzUbuntu Makes Novell’s Mono a “Master Of The Universe” (MOTU) < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/ubuntu-mono-motu/ >May 08 13:39
DaemonFCpart of that is cause of Volume Shadow ServiceMay 08 13:39
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schestowitztrmanco: "Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:00:57 +0300 "May 08 13:40
trmancoyeahMay 08 13:40
DaemonFCI already was saying earlier that Ubuntu is a meaningless Debian fork designed to place control under a company with ambitions to take on Red Hat and NovellMay 08 13:41
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-05-07-023-35-NW-BZ-0000 "How nice of Mr. Greenspan to testify before Congress about how importing cheap labor could help suppress wages in technology in the U.S."May 08 13:42
DaemonFCCanonical (Mark Shuttleworth) has been bleeding cash on this for nearly 5 yearsMay 08 13:42
DaemonFCyou don't go into business to lose moneyMay 08 13:42
schestowitzThey have a revenue of $20mlMay 08 13:42
schestowitzWhat are the expenses?May 08 13:42
schestowitzShuttlewotth might as well burn this moneyMay 08 13:42
DaemonFCWell, since it's not publically traded, there's no telling what their real Profit and Loss report isMay 08 13:42
schestowitzHe'll get some recognition; he can't take the money to his grave, obviouslyMay 08 13:43
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DaemonFCcause they don't have to tell anyone except maybe in the form of filing their taxes?May 08 13:43
schestowitzDaemonFC: NYT said 10milMay 08 13:43
schestowitz*20milMay 08 13:43
DaemonFCno, they're mistakenMay 08 13:43
schestowitzI assume MarkS told this to Ahelee VanceMay 08 13:43
schestowitzThey're like friends... both from SAMay 08 13:43
DaemonFCI'm almost sure that's the money Shuttleworth has put into the Foundation "reserve"May 08 13:43
DaemonFCI don't trust themMay 08 13:44
schestowitzHaha. Dreamers.. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-05-07-023-35-NW-BZ-0001  "that's what they call the Golden Rule:those with the most Gold make the rules.(usually as they go along) "May 08 13:44
schestowitz"we've always had a Government in bed with big business,but now they're happily married. the Election of President Obama is a move towards a more representative government that does what is best for ALL Americans, not just big business/the Wealthy. will it work? that remains to be seen...."May 08 13:44
schestowitzI guess he didn't pay attention then... BSA|MAFIAA enter the DOJMay 08 13:44
DaemonFCyeah, we've just got a better bullshit peddler I'm afraidMay 08 13:45
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-05-07-023-35-NW-BZ-0003 "Did you by any chance, miss the over 3 billion Obama has given out or reserved for big corporations? I love these poor people who are blinded by slick style, a lying media, and ignoring of facts. "May 08 13:45
schestowitzNo... no... OBAMMA loves thyMay 08 13:45
DaemonFCasks his masters what token gestures he's allowed to makeMay 08 13:45
schestowitzOBAMAA cares for the small people... :-)May 08 13:45
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schestowitz"The best news that ever happened to a business baffoon and cheater has been Obama. Not only does he bail them out, he takes the company over!! Sure he fired a CEO, only to put the crooks in Congress in his place!"May 08 13:46
DaemonFCI only voted for him cause the thought of Suzie Homemakerbecoming president after John McCain died scared me worseMay 08 13:46
schestowitzThese are responses to: IT Salary Levels, 2004-2009 < http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/12297_3819081 >May 08 13:46
schestowitzSee how stagnant it is, despite inflationMay 08 13:46
schestowitzThis has gone on for decades I hearMay 08 13:47
schestowitzWages degrade, but inflation makes it soMay 08 13:47
schestowitzLess money for the peonsMay 08 13:47
oiaohmFunny thing about this out of all the money that has been given out by different presidents.May 08 13:47
DaemonFCthe Republicans threw that election by nominating a pair that had nothig in common and were both unelectableMay 08 13:47
oiaohmObama looks like one of the first to get it paid back.May 08 13:47
schestowitzLike what happened with post WW1 sanctions from the Anglo-allianceMay 08 13:47
DaemonFCwell, it can never be paid backMay 08 13:47
DaemonFCone of the reasons we rebelled was because of the central bankMay 08 13:48
oiaohmSimple reason while they owe govement money for bailing themselfs out the CEO cannot pay themselves bonuses.May 08 13:48
DaemonFCwe wanted nothing to do with itMay 08 13:48
DaemonFCthen set up our own in 1913May 08 13:48
DaemonFCbeen slaves to it ever sinceMay 08 13:48
DaemonFCno, it's because of the Federal Reserve that all money is counterfeitMay 08 13:49
DaemonFCand there's more debt than there is moneyMay 08 13:49
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DaemonFCif the US government seized every dollar in circulation...........from everyoneMay 08 13:50
DaemonFCand used it all to pay off debtMay 08 13:50
DaemonFCthey'd still be in debtMay 08 13:50
schestowitzSabayon 4.1 looks like a great one from a small group of devs: http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/sabayon-4-1.htmlMay 08 13:50
DaemonFCthe same is true of CanadaMay 08 13:50
DaemonFCand the UKMay 08 13:50
DaemonFCand any system with a central bankMay 08 13:51
schestowitzWaitMay 08 13:51
schestowitzCanada?May 08 13:51
schestowitzPlease say more.May 08 13:51
schestowitzCountries keep their figures out of public eyesMay 08 13:51
DaemonFCthe central banking system in Canada has done the same thing to themMay 08 13:51
schestowitzWhat is debt/capita in CA?May 08 13:52
oiaohmIts not every system with a central back.May 08 13:52
DaemonFCit's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors and accounting tricksMay 08 13:52
oiaohmJust most.May 08 13:52
schestowitzCA has natural resources, so it will be fine. Like Russia...May 08 13:52
DaemonFCbut yes, they are unbelievably fucked over as wellMay 08 13:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: what is CA's national debt?May 08 13:52
schestowitzWhat about Germany?May 08 13:52
schestowitzI google for answers, but nadaMay 08 13:52
schestowitzLet me try againMay 08 13:52
DaemonFCthat doesn't matterMay 08 13:52
schestowitzUK=$3trillion debtMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCwhen you have fiat currencyMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCthe system is crookedMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCand there is more debt than moneyMay 08 13:53
schestowitzDid China play this game too?May 08 13:53
schestowitzI know about Japan collapsing.May 08 13:53
schestowitzSo they must have 'pulled a Greenspan' tooMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCof course, only they've managed to manipulate exchange rates to actually come out aheadMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCfrom sucking blood from the rest of the worldMay 08 13:53
DaemonFCbut someone always has to pay for the central bankMay 08 13:54
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=germany+national+debt&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8May 08 13:54
schestowitzPage one I get "US national debt"May 08 13:54
schestowitzHas Germany not tossed its card on the table yet?May 08 13:54
schestowitzStill poker-facing?May 08 13:54
DaemonFCthe fractional reserve system is my favorite trick of the bankstersMay 08 13:54
DaemonFCthey litereally create money from nowhere every time they make a loanMay 08 13:55
schestowitz"By the early 1990s, however, that figure had risen by several 100 billion deutsche marks and was estimated to be almost DM1.5 trillion, or 50 percent of united German GDP."May 08 13:55
schestowitzThese are OLD figuresMay 08 13:55
schestowitz"Data as of August 1995"May 08 13:56
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_bankingMay 08 13:56
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debtMay 08 13:56
DaemonFCthat's also what enables the central bank to intentionally cause a panicMay 08 13:56
DaemonFCand create a run on smaller banksMay 08 13:56
schestowitzAh.May 08 13:56
schestowitzExcellent pageMay 08 13:56
schestowitzhttp://www.steuerzahler.de/webcom/show_softlink.php/_c-33/i.htmlMay 08 13:57
schestowitzhttp://cluaran.free.fr/dette.htmlMay 08 13:57
schestowitzFrance: 1.3 Euros in debtMay 08 13:57
schestowitzUK is about 2 Euros in debtMay 08 13:57
schestowitzCanadian Debt & Tax Clock  < http://www.ndir.com/SI/education/debt.shtml >May 08 13:58
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197May 08 13:58
schestowitzAbout a trillionMay 08 13:58
schestowitzMaybe CADMay 08 13:58
schestowitzNot USDMay 08 13:58
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schestowitzEither way, for a small Canadian population this is bigMay 08 13:58
DaemonFCit's about 2 hours longMay 08 13:58
DaemonFCand explains the frauds of government, religion, and the banking systemMay 08 13:59
schestowitzJapan debt: http://www.mof.go.jp/english/files.htmMay 08 14:00
schestowitzI heard abotu Zeitgeist but haven't watched it yetMay 08 14:00
Balroghi everyoneMay 08 14:00
schestowitzHeyMay 08 14:00
BalrogAnything new about that article that got pulled?May 08 14:01
bgtr4just benched ff 3.0.10 and opera 9.64 with sunspider javascript benchmark: 1796.8ms +/- 2.1% for ff and 2338.0ms +/- 2.4% for operaMay 08 14:02
Balrogbgtr4: I wonder how that compares to webkit and ie8May 08 14:02
schestowitzBalrog: nopeMay 08 14:02
Balrogwebkit has a working GTK+ frontend, if you build from srcMay 08 14:02
bgtr4will benchmark ff3.5b4 soonMay 08 14:02
Balrogbut it takes several hours and several gigs to buildMay 08 14:03
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bgtr4omg...May 08 14:07
bgtr4ff3.5b4 705.4ms +/- 3.0%May 08 14:07
DaemonFCSafari 4 is faster than Firefox on that testMay 08 14:07
bgtr4fast as a flying hedgehogMay 08 14:08
bgtr4DaemonFC, did you try ff3.5b4?May 08 14:08
bgtr4it's 2.5 times fasterMay 08 14:08
bgtr4and i won't unban internet explorer to check itMay 08 14:09
DaemonFCFirefox 3.5 beta 4 is still slower than SafariMay 08 14:09
bgtr4gotta check konqueror as wellMay 08 14:09
schestowitz"I wonder who invited all these American stakeholders to meddle with European regulatory issues. Did we submit amicus letters to Bilski? Of course not. "  < http://www.epo.org/patents/appeals/eba-decisions/referrals/pending/briefs.html >May 08 14:11
schestowitzPatent system...May 08 14:11
schestowitzRun by big companies for big companiesMay 08 14:11
schestowitz"Given the nature of institutions to ossify, the Linux movement itself should be subjected to Schumpeter’s creative destruction afforded by computer software patents." - Silicon Economics , Joel JamesonMay 08 14:11
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BalrogDaemonFC: what about Webkit under GTK+ ?May 08 14:12
oiaohmhttp://www.itpro.co.uk/blogs/daveyw/2009/05/07/has-microsoft-gone-mental/  LOLMay 08 14:12
Balroghttp://trac.webkit.org/wiki/BuildingGtkMay 08 14:12
bgtr4seems like windows kde 4.2.1 konqueror is pretty slowMay 08 14:13
DaemonFCwell yeahMay 08 14:14
DaemonFCKDE on Windows apps also crash a lotMay 08 14:14
bgtr4what are other good tests?May 08 14:14
DaemonFCso no difference there :DMay 08 14:14
bgtr4idk... it didn't crash for meMay 08 14:14
bgtr4just take stable versionMay 08 14:14
bgtr4konqueror doesn't finish that testMay 08 14:15
Balrogbgtr4: what about webkit/GTK+? It's said to complete acid3 quite wellMay 08 14:16
DaemonFCI should try Sunspider on IE 6May 08 14:17
DaemonFCB-)May 08 14:17
bgtr4i don't want to rebootMay 08 14:17
bgtr4torrenting hereMay 08 14:17
bgtr42604.8ms +/- 1.1% for windows konquerorMay 08 14:17
bgtr4not too slowMay 08 14:18
Balroglet's see what I getMay 08 14:18
bgtr4i don't even remember which ie is installed hereMay 08 14:20
Balrog862.4ms +/- 1.8%May 08 14:20
BalrogWebkit current nightly / MacMay 08 14:20
Balrogbut I was doing other stuff....May 08 14:20
Balrogso that skews itMay 08 14:21
oiaohmhttps://wiki.mozilla.org/Content_Processes  Firefox is going down the chrome path.May 08 14:23
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Balrogyes, I heardMay 08 14:26
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_bgtr4wow, mozilla is making yet another browserMay 08 14:32
_bgtr4minefieldMay 08 14:32
DaemonFChttp://bink.nu/photos/news_article_images/images/13504/original.aspxMay 08 14:37
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_bgtr4wtf... this apple site doesn't provide the link to download safari 4 for windowsMay 08 14:47
_bgtr4i wanted to check itMay 08 14:47
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_bgtr4that's lameMay 08 14:53
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schestowitzBryan Lunduke -- 'He's just trying to provoke a response so as he can quote the 'crazies', and ignore relevant technical points raised. typical troll behavior.'May 08 15:01
schestowitz"I knew, without a doubt, that the title alone would bring the crazies out from under the stairs and they would go after me (and the Linux Action Show)" http://lunduke.com/?p=493&cpage=1#comment-2985May 08 15:01
schestowitzAnyway, I'm done with that BSMay 08 15:01
schestowitz“Linux Action Show” Dudes Censor Comments They Disagree with, Then Lie About It and Ask People to Troll Us < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/truth-about-linux-action-show/ >May 08 15:02
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schestowitzMicrosoft is AstroTurfing in Twitter: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/microsoft-incentives-on-twitter/May 08 15:26
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schestowitzTo be complacent with software monopolies is to reinforce a form of communism/fascismMay 08 15:27
Omar871Hi allMay 08 15:47
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mib_5xz47hhiMay 08 15:48
schestowitzIs Internet access a 'fundamental right'? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10234555-16.htmlMay 08 15:57
schestowitzmib_5xz47h: hiMay 08 15:57
schestowitzOmar871: could you please vote for this http://www.fsdaily.com/Opposition/Microsoft_s_Latest_Lie_Attack_Against_GNU_Linux_and_ODF ? It's just 1 vote shyMay 08 15:58
schestowitzI have a scoop about Vista 7 :DMay 08 15:58
Omar871schestowitz: DoneMay 08 16:04
schestowitzThanks, buddyMay 08 16:09
schestowitzCensorship by intimidation: Man Who Shows That Vista 7 is as Heavy as Vista Gets Attacked < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/angry-vista-7-mob/ >May 08 16:10
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schestowitz"Here's an interesting fact for you: India is the world's second-largest country in terms of population.  And here's one more detail: by unveiling Bengali, Hindi, Malayalam, Punjabi, Tamil, and Telugu interfaces, Facebook has put itself in a good position to pursue India's citizens. " http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/05/08/facebook-translates-itself-into-six-indian-languagesMay 08 16:26
schestowitzMaggie Shiels from the MSBBC is still singing their (MS) tune today, this time with a veiled attack on Google.May 08 16:30
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schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8039316.stmMay 08 16:30
schestowitzre: "proprietarists are the ones being propped up by states" well, often they ARE the state :-)May 08 16:31
schestowitzLots of Google and Apple hostility in the MSBBC today; nothing but Microsoft affinity...May 08 16:33
schestowitzReal funny sign: http://www.blogicalthoughts.com/images/signs/947_signs.jpgMay 08 16:34
schestowitzIron Maiden’s lawsuit is ‘outrageous,’ comic creator says < http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2009/05/iron-maidens-lawsuit-is-outrageous-comic-creator-says/ >May 08 16:37
schestowitzThe war on photography resumes: San Francisco Muni begins to enforce imaginary no-photos policy < http://www.boingboing.net/2009/05/07/san-francisco-muni-b.html >May 08 16:40
schestowitzMicrosoft does to WGA what it did to Vista: Keep it the same, change the name < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137145/microsoft-fixes-malware >May 08 16:42
schestowitzOracle is moving into hardware (indeed) with Sun's assets: http://tech.yahoo.com/news/pcworld/20090508/tc_pcworld/oraclewillstayinthehardwarebusinessellisonsaysMay 08 16:43
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jbergyou guys are ridiculousMay 08 16:44
DaemonFChttp://www.reuters.com/article/idgSmallBusiness/idUS138315385920090507May 08 16:44
DaemonFCIE on pace to drop below 50% share by 2011May 08 16:45
schestowitzCar with three wheels (but not in the same direction as Mr. Bean's): http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/this-car-is-not-the-future/May 08 16:46
schestowitzyo, jberg May 08 16:46
schestowitzAre you one of the Show?May 08 16:46
DaemonFCschestowitz: WinFLP with no IE requires only 600 megs of disk spaceMay 08 16:46
schestowitzI clarifiedMay 08 16:46
DaemonFC:)May 08 16:46
jberghehe I love linux and you know who got me into it LINUX ACTION SHOW. Later dudes you my friend are a poo poo headMay 08 16:47
schestowitzMore on the same insanity: Creationism Dig Violated Student’s Rights < http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/05/creationism-dig-violated-students-rights/ >. Yes, "the world is round," tooMay 08 16:47
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schestowitzThis hopefully explains: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/truth-about-linux-action-show/May 08 16:48
DaemonFCWell, if I say I'm an athiest, they all freak outMay 08 16:48
schestowitzThe 'action' show sent a mob to usMay 08 16:48
DaemonFCbut then of course they have the right to force their beliefs on meMay 08 16:48
schestowitzActually asking for abuseMay 08 16:48
DaemonFCcause God gave them the rightMay 08 16:48
DaemonFC:)May 08 16:48
schestowitzhahaMay 08 16:48
schestowitzCould be worseMay 08 16:49
schestowitzYou could be stone, you bl00dy manMay 08 16:49
DaemonFCthey like to rub your face in their pile of shitMay 08 16:49
schestowitz*stonedMay 08 16:49
schestowitzDaemonFC: I don't mind it muchMay 08 16:49
DaemonFCand you can't tell them to "Just go waste your own life"May 08 16:49
schestowitzBut suppression of speech is an issueMay 08 16:49
schestowitzLike in the case of this guyMay 08 16:49
schestowitzAnd the Glenn Beck scumMay 08 16:49
schestowitzSaying people should not even get a voice if they are DarwinistsMay 08 16:50
DaemonFCIt's kind of hard to make fun of the far rightMay 08 16:50
schestowitzWhy?May 08 16:50
schestowitzThey have guns?May 08 16:50
DaemonFCthey're so insane it's almost funny to watch themMay 08 16:50
schestowitzScaryMay 08 16:50
schestowitzNot just funnyMay 08 16:50
schestowitzDid you see the  story about them in Afghanistan?May 08 16:50
DaemonFCthen you remember "Oh shit, there are really people that believe that"May 08 16:50
schestowitzThey try to converty people their to ChristianityMay 08 16:51
schestowitzThey are on a crusadeMay 08 16:51
schestowitzWar on Islam, properMay 08 16:51
schestowitz"Here... have the bible..."May 08 16:51
DaemonFCyou know what I think?May 08 16:51
schestowitzI was shacked when I read itMay 08 16:51
schestowitzThey not try to convert Muslims using the militaryMay 08 16:51
DaemonFCI think we should put the Christians, Jews, and Muslims all in one big open areaMay 08 16:51
schestowitzGive us your oil, become x-ians''May 08 16:52
DaemonFCgive them an unlimited supply of weapons and ammunitionMay 08 16:52
DaemonFCand let them sort the problem outMay 08 16:52
DaemonFCcause they wouldMay 08 16:52
schestowitzIf you refer to creationists, that would be most of the worldMay 08 16:52
schestowitzDarwin died long  agoMay 08 16:52
schestowitzover 100 years later the adoption rate of Truth is still poorMay 08 16:53
schestowitzNot even 6-8 generations were enoughMay 08 16:53
schestowitzSo creationism has strong endurance via indoctrination or peer pressure, I reckonMay 08 16:53
DaemonFCThey use the fact that there might be 1 athiest and 1 Muslim per 100 Christians as "proof" of some kind of an invasionMay 08 16:53
DaemonFCit's kind of sad that Christians are really that paranoid/delusionalMay 08 16:54
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schestowitzWell, the market share mentalityMay 08 16:54
schestowitzLike, "many people use Windows," so it must be greatMay 08 16:54
DaemonFCThe Christians figure as long as there is one person on Earth that disagrees with them, then there's a conspiracy to "overthrow" themMay 08 16:55
schestowitzSermon = marketingMay 08 16:55
schestowitzWaggener Edstrom = pastorMay 08 16:55
schestowitzZuck = crusaderMay 08 16:55
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schestowitzBallmer = popeMay 08 16:55
schestowitzGate = mary the Saint May 08 16:56
DaemonFCSteve Ballmer is actually kind of amusingMay 08 16:56
torosreMay 08 16:56
schestowitz*GatesMay 08 16:56
DaemonFCWindows 7 is sounding kind of OrwellianMay 08 16:56
DaemonFCall this talk about turning WGA into a re-education campMay 08 16:57
DaemonFC:PMay 08 16:57
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schestowitzElsevier's corruption runs deeper: http://www.sennoma.net/main/archives/2009/05/no_bottom_to_worse_at_elsevier.php They also attacked FOSS in waysMay 08 17:26
schestowitzHaving a "National Secular Society" makes it seems like atheism is a dangerous cult now, a deviation.May 08 17:27
trmanco09021990May 08 17:40
trmancooopsMay 08 17:40
trmancodidn't paste my birth date in the right window :-PMay 08 17:41
schestowitzThe EPO ship is sinking. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/08/alison-brimelow-to-leave-epo/ (Goodbye, Alison Brimelow (EPO President))May 08 17:46
schestowitzLie detectors are a lie... Lie Detector Charlatans < http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/05/lie_detector_ch.html >May 08 17:50
schestowitzChina ready for post-Kyoto deal on climate change http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/06/china-seeks-climate-change-dealMay 08 17:51
schestowitzThe EPO wanted software patents loophole. “as such”, it lost people's faith in it. http://www.computerworlduk.com/community/blogs/index.cfm?blogid=14&entryid=2168May 08 17:54
schestowitzLies behind torture: ‘Make sure you say that you were treated properly’ <  http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n09/peir01_.html >May 08 17:55
schestowitzhttp://www.longtail.com/the_long_tail/2009/05/a-tragic-tale-of-free-gone-horribly-wrong.html "Short form: the attempt by a half-dozen newspaper publishers to “out-free” a free Icelandic paper that entered the market (backed by Morten Lund, who made a fortune as an early investor in Skype) ended up costing the collective newspaper industry in Denmark more than $150 million dollars and the bankruptcy of three newspapers."May 08 18:06
schestowitzWhat Happens if Microsoft Buys Twitter? < http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009/05/what-happens-if-microsoft-buys-twitter.html > It won't happen anyway.May 08 18:09
DaemonFChttp://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/upgrade-advisor.aspxMay 08 18:19
schestowitztrmanco: I told Hubert about joining the gnu area (like bazaar.. will launchpad go there too?). I hope he will respond.May 08 18:20
trmancowhat do you mean?May 08 18:20
schestowitzDaemonFC: does education where you are incorporate militarism? The indoctrination in some nations starts when you are a toddler staring at troops marching and celebrating heroism/patriotism. May 08 18:20
schestowitztrmanco: RMS told me to ask Hubert to put gnote near gnu.May 08 18:21
trmancoahMay 08 18:21
DaemonFCrunning the "Upgrade Advisor"May 08 18:21
DaemonFCthis should be interestingMay 08 18:21
trmancolaunchpad will in the future be open sourceMay 08 18:21
trmanconot sure if it will be released as free softwareMay 08 18:21
schestowitzWindows 7 Upgrade Advisor - will it ever say "no"?May 08 18:22
schestowitzReminds of that old flow chart for Vista.May 08 18:22
schestowitzCan you find it maybe?May 08 18:22
DaemonFChehMay 08 18:26
DaemonFCone device that works fine in 7, it says is incompatibleMay 08 18:27
DaemonFCand one device that wrecks Windows 7 if you install the drivers is listed as OKMay 08 18:27
schestowitzDaemonFC: did you see the referecent to you?May 08 18:28
schestowitzVista 7 - last article?May 08 18:28
DaemonFCyeahMay 08 18:29
*DaemonFC is not feeling so greatMay 08 18:29
*DaemonFC goes to find some bismuthMay 08 18:30
schestowitzSo it's true that Dell is at least studying mobile Linux right now: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124165099104393565.html (Dell Studies Google's Android for Future Products)May 08 18:30
DaemonFCschestowitz: Chrome + Privoxy is actually pretty niceMay 08 18:51
*DaemonFC is trying to 2.0 betaMay 08 18:53
zer0c00lschestowitz, i saw some new replies here http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/16/india-moves-to-free-software/May 08 18:56
zer0c00lanything special about that post today?May 08 18:57
DaemonFCChrome 2 blows Firefox away on Sunspider :PMay 08 18:59
DaemonFChttp://tinyurl.com/ocdaenMay 08 19:00
schestowitzzer0c00l: what's it all about?May 08 19:00
zer0c00lschestowitz, some one seems to be trolling thereMay 08 19:01
zer0c00li subscribed to commentsMay 08 19:01
zer0c00lto that postMay 08 19:01
zer0c00ljust got few comment notification mailsMay 08 19:01
DaemonFCChrome 2 appears to be roughly 1,000% faster than IE 8 on javascriptMay 08 19:02
DaemonFCand 50% faster than Firefox 3.5 beta 4May 08 19:02
schestowitzzer0c00l: yes, but why 3 new comments?May 08 19:02
schestowitzDid someone link to it?May 08 19:02
zer0c00lmay beMay 08 19:02
zer0c00li dont knowMay 08 19:02
zer0c00lthere is some guy named ClarksonMay 08 19:02
DaemonFCschestowitz: there was some kerfluffle a while backMay 08 19:04
DaemonFCthat Google was found to be using undocumented APIs in WindowsMay 08 19:04
DaemonFCcommenting in their source code suggests they reverse engineered parts of VistaMay 08 19:04
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kentmaDaemonFC: nothing wrong with rev eng, though, is there?May 08 19:08
DaemonFCas long as they don't break any copy protection and haven't seen the Windows source codeMay 08 19:08
DaemonFCnoMay 08 19:08
schestowitzDid Microsoft nick another company from the inside? Probably not. "Microsoft to buy firm chaired by its top video-game executive" < http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_to_buy_firm_chaired_by_its_top_video-game_executive_44554052.html >May 08 19:09
DaemonFCactually, the DMCA even makes some exceptions for breaking copy protection for compatibilityMay 08 19:09
schestowitzThere's a funny in the news:May 08 19:10
DaemonFCbut those provisions are worded vaguely enough that it's something of a gray area that no business would want to involve itself inMay 08 19:10
schestowitzhttp://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/05/mpaa-proof-of-concept-copy-dvds-by-pointing-camera-at-screen/ http://techdirt.com/articles/20090506/1851344774.shtmlMay 08 19:10
DaemonFCFirefox is funded largely by GoogleMay 08 19:10
schestowitzIt's basically the MPAA showing people how to copy its filmsMay 08 19:10
schestowitzWithout violating DMCAMay 08 19:10
DaemonFCby Mozilla's own account, Google provides well over 60% of their incomeMay 08 19:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: like 80%May 08 19:10
DaemonFCyeahMay 08 19:11
schestowitzBeat me to itMay 08 19:11
DaemonFCGoogle kind of has toMay 08 19:11
DaemonFCcause if they didn't, Microsoft wouldMay 08 19:11
schestowitzFuture Mozilla -- powered by tip jar?May 08 19:11
schestowitzWould what? Fund Firefox?May 08 19:11
DaemonFCwell unfortunately Windows is all the Mozilla people really care aboutMay 08 19:12
schestowitzMS wouldn't find them for Live search.May 08 19:12
DaemonFCsure they wouldMay 08 19:12
schestowitzI very much doubt they would swing this wayMay 08 19:12
schestowitzMozila hates MSMay 08 19:12
schestowitzWindow Snyder is out tooMay 08 19:12
schestowitz[good riddance]May 08 19:12
DaemonFCno, they work closely with each otherMay 08 19:12
schestowitzthey have no choiceMay 08 19:12
DaemonFCa lot of stuff in Firefox is so Windows-specific it either has to be stripped out of the Linux binariesMay 08 19:12
DaemonFCor completely rewrittenMay 08 19:13
schestowitzMozilla is grilling MS at the EU commission ATMMay 08 19:13
schestowitzShow me the codeMay 08 19:13
schestowitzDid you look at it?May 08 19:13
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trmancoanyone wanna see what I've been working on?May 08 19:13
schestowitzwm, _bgtr4 May 08 19:13
schestowitztrmanco: go aheadMay 08 19:14
_Hicham_trmanco : go aheadMay 08 19:14
schestowitzHeh.May 08 19:14
trmancohttp://trmanco.co.cc/surll/May 08 19:14
schestowitzMind asynchMay 08 19:14
trmancothat's just a test siteMay 08 19:14
schestowitzco.cc??May 08 19:14
trmancoyeah, test siteMay 08 19:15
schestowitzIt can be misreadMay 08 19:15
schestowitzEsp. by trollsMay 08 19:15
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trmancoit point to a free hostMay 08 19:15
trmancopoints*May 08 19:15
schestowitzhttp://github.com/trmanco/surll/tree/masterMay 08 19:16
DaemonFCWindow Snyder was probably forced outMay 08 19:16
schestowitzCool.May 08 19:16
trmancoI just added some jquery magic to it todayMay 08 19:16
trmanco:)May 08 19:16
schestowitzDaemonFC: any proof?May 08 19:16
DaemonFCjust overall incompetence would be my guessMay 08 19:16
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/11/window-snyder-out/May 08 19:16
DaemonFCFirefox has actualyl sprung more leaks than MSIE over the last couple yearsMay 08 19:16
DaemonFCso "Why exactly are we paying you?"May 08 19:17
DaemonFC:)May 08 19:17
_Hicham_what kinds of leaksMay 08 19:17
trmancoDaemonFC, uou can have real numbers from IE leaksMay 08 19:17
_Hicham_?May 08 19:17
schestowitzleaks?May 08 19:18
trmancoit's spread everywhere throughout the systemMay 08 19:18
schestowitzOverflows?May 08 19:18
DaemonFCgo to SecuniaMay 08 19:18
schestowitzWhat about leaks? Mem?May 08 19:18
trmancooh those leaksMay 08 19:18
trmancothought you where referring to mem leaksMay 08 19:18
_Hicham_what leaks then?May 08 19:19
DaemonFCMy point is, if they're insecure, why are they paying someone a six figure salary to make sure this doesn't happen?May 08 19:19
schestowitzto praise msMay 08 19:19
schestowitzAs she didMay 08 19:19
_Hicham_DaemonFC : nothing is secure 100%May 08 19:19
schestowitzShe worked for msMay 08 19:19
DaemonFCShe would have gotten the boot formally from meMay 08 19:19
DaemonFCand a lot quicker than thatMay 08 19:19
DaemonFCif it was my companyMay 08 19:20
_Hicham_security is just a mythMay 08 19:20
_Hicham_there is always a holeMay 08 19:20
_Hicham_but we can fill as much holes as we canMay 08 19:20
DaemonFCWell, there's the concept of low laying fruitMay 08 19:20
_Hicham_sanitized input is still a problemMay 08 19:20
DaemonFCMicrosoft has a field of watermelonsMay 08 19:21
DaemonFCand Mozilla has the field of watermelons across from themMay 08 19:21
_Hicham_DaemonFC : Mozilla is at least openMay 08 19:21
DaemonFCnot reallyMay 08 19:21
_Hicham_it is not the only one to patch firefoxMay 08 19:21
trmancohahaMay 08 19:21
_Hicham_firefox is patched by all distrosMay 08 19:21
DaemonFCif you report a vulnerability, they don't disclose anything, they take their damned time fixing itMay 08 19:22
trmancoanother user removed mono, tomboy,f-spot and installed real appsMay 08 19:22
trmanco:DMay 08 19:22
trmancoI do have some influence on people :-PMay 08 19:22
_Hicham_DaemonFC : it is normal, no?May 08 19:22
DaemonFCif I found anything wrong in Firefox, I would disclose it as loudly and clearly as possibleMay 08 19:22
DaemonFCwith examples of how to exploit itMay 08 19:22
_Hicham_and they will hear youMay 08 19:22
DaemonFCsee if it lit a fire under their assesMay 08 19:22
_Hicham_and find patchesMay 08 19:23
_Hicham_that what they do, patchingMay 08 19:23
_Hicham_go watch their security advisoriesMay 08 19:23
DaemonFCyeah, Mandriva is still 2 security releases behindMay 08 19:23
DaemonFCand god only knows what Ubuntu is up toMay 08 19:23
_Hicham_go to FedoraMay 08 19:23
_Hicham_it is the most up-to-dateMay 08 19:23
_Hicham_there is no distro ahead of FedoraMay 08 19:24
_Hicham_and see if there is a damned old packageMay 08 19:24
_Hicham_Fedora releases new Firefox version the day Mozilla announce itMay 08 19:24
_Hicham_that is a very good example of upstream/downsteam cooperationMay 08 19:25
trmancoschestowitz, see -> http://open-mania.com/2009/05/01/gnote-vs-tomboy-e-remocao-do-mono/#comment-3333 and http://open-mania.com/2009/05/01/gnote-vs-tomboy-e-remocao-do-mono/#comment-3334 for more infoMay 08 19:25
schestowitzHehe. http://www.123people.com/s/alison+brimelowMay 08 19:26
DaemonFCworst browser of all time was IE 6May 08 19:26
_Hicham_fuck IE 6 a very big fuckMay 08 19:27
_Hicham_fuck it again and againMay 08 19:27
DaemonFCit was actually listed in PC World as one of the worst tech products of all timeMay 08 19:27
_Hicham_I hated IE 6 more than anythingMay 08 19:27
schestowitztrmanco: no blog on Mono disposal?May 08 19:27
_Hicham_made my life miserableMay 08 19:27
_Hicham_you still have to add some tags just for IE 6May 08 19:27
trmancoschestowitz, not sureMay 08 19:27
DaemonFCOK, top 25 worst, and Microsoft is responsible for 4, 6, 7, and 8May 08 19:28
DaemonFCWindows Me, WinG library, Bob, and IE 6May 08 19:29
trmancowhat about clippyMay 08 19:29
DaemonFCto be fair though Windows Vista was not released when they wrote thisMay 08 19:29
DaemonFCI'm sure that would have brought them up to half the top ten worstMay 08 19:29
DaemonFC"Shortly after Me appeared in late 2000, users reported problems installing it, getting it to run, getting it to work with other hardware or software, and getting it to stop running. Aside from that, Me worked great."May 08 19:30
_Hicham_DaemonFC : DEP is still present in Windows 7?May 08 19:30
DaemonFCsounds like what happens with every Windows to meMay 08 19:30
DaemonFCyeah, DEP is just Microsoft's name for NX BitMay 08 19:30
DaemonFCLinux supports thatMay 08 19:30
DaemonFCit's mandatory on any 64-bit process in LinuxMay 08 19:31
DaemonFCVista and 7 work differently than XP with DEPMay 08 19:31
DaemonFCapplications can opt inMay 08 19:31
DaemonFCwell, actually, threads can opt inMay 08 19:31
DaemonFCChrome uses itMay 08 19:32
DaemonFCIE uses itMay 08 19:32
DaemonFCFirefox does notMay 08 19:32
_Hicham_Chrome goes around it, to be preciseMay 08 19:32
DaemonFCthere's a lot of inconsistent behavior in Windows, in the wat it handles 32-bit and 64-bit processesMay 08 19:33
_Hicham_they had access to secret docsMay 08 19:33
DaemonFCa lot of security features are possible on 32-bit x86May 08 19:33
DaemonFCbut would break a lot of shitMay 08 19:33
DaemonFCso 32-bit processes have to opt in to DEP, and 64-bit processes get it, mandatoryMay 08 19:34
DaemonFCand all Windows system services get itMay 08 19:34
DaemonFCbut you can rid it to force it on every programMay 08 19:34
DaemonFCand make an exceptions list crash by crashMay 08 19:34
DaemonFC:DMay 08 19:34
DaemonFC*rigMay 08 19:34
schestowitzWindows and Viruses - Made for each other < http://www.planetoss.com/detail.php?id=21 >May 08 19:35
DaemonFCit'll even take out Windows Explorer if you don't make an exception for thatMay 08 19:35
DaemonFCand since malicious software can hook into Windows Explorer (and does)May 08 19:35
DaemonFCit would defeat the pointMay 08 19:35
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balzacwebex sucksMay 08 19:36
schestowitzIs this true??  Chrome Users Most Up to Date, Firefox Second < http://www.osnews.com/story/21445/Chrome_Users_Most_Up_to_Date_Firefox_Second >May 08 19:36
balzacstinks is a better word.May 08 19:36
DaemonFCyou really should use Privoxy if you're browsing web pages in WindowsMay 08 19:36
DaemonFClots of malicious software hiding in web advertisementsMay 08 19:36
schestowitzThom Holwerda  is a bit of a MSFTer , so I don't trust him muchMay 08 19:37
DaemonFCeven on legitimate sitesMay 08 19:37
balzacRoy, auto-updating is a feature for a consumer-grade browserMay 08 19:37
balzacI don't want the latest version to be automatically updated unless I'm ready for itMay 08 19:37
schestowitzMandriva, as DaemonFC said, is still @ 3.0.8 for FFMay 08 19:38
balzacThat's a bit of wankery from OSNews to compare Chrome with the venerable Firefox in that regardMay 08 19:38
_Hicham_schestowitz : true, Chrome users are the most up-to-dateMay 08 19:38
_Hicham_and u know why alreadyMay 08 19:39
schestowitzI wonder if the flaws fixed are only affecting/targeted at WindersMay 08 19:39
balzac_Hicham_: why?May 08 19:39
DaemonFCit's fairly alarming the way a lot of desktop Linux distributions brush security to the sideMay 08 19:39
DaemonFCthey're basically just lucky that nobody is trying to attack themMay 08 19:39
_Hicham_Because Chrome installs itself in Application Data folder of the current userMay 08 19:39
_Hicham_so no admin privilegies are requiredMay 08 19:40
_Hicham_while Firefox ( by default ) install into program files folderMay 08 19:40
balzacDaemonFC: I'm worried about the rich-media support which is based on proprietary technologies making vulnerabilities in GNU/Linux distrosMay 08 19:40
DaemonFCno admin priveleges are required to run FirefoxMay 08 19:40
_Hicham_which requires admin privilegiesMay 08 19:40
balzac_Hicham_: windows...May 08 19:40
_Hicham_DaemonFC : to update it, u mustMay 08 19:40
DaemonFCit jut gets annoying to have it freak out if you label it with  a Low Integrity tokenMay 08 19:41
_Hicham_on Windows or LinuxMay 08 19:41
balzacI'm happy to remain in control of the installed version myself.May 08 19:41
_Hicham_Fedora ships a vanilla FirefoxMay 08 19:41
DaemonFCWell yeah, it's obvious that if Flash, Mono, and Moonlight take root, then you will have cross platform malicious softwareMay 08 19:41
balzacthe best thing about Chrome is the separation of tabs into discreet processesMay 08 19:41
DaemonFCwrite once run anywhere :)May 08 19:41
_Hicham_if u run it with root privilegies, u can update it via MozillaMay 08 19:41
balzacDaemonFC: all the more reason to tear that garbage outMay 08 19:42
DaemonFCno, the Firefox in distributions can't be updated with the Firefox updaterMay 08 19:42
_Hicham_DaemonFC : what distro are u in?May 08 19:42
balzacflash already harms the good reputation of Firefox by helping pop-ups get past your pop-up blocking extensionMay 08 19:42
schestowitzDaemonFC: works for me sometimesMay 08 19:42
schestowitzSame with ThunderbirdMay 08 19:42
balzacFlash makes FF look badMay 08 19:42
DaemonFCwhen I'm on Linux, Fedora mainlyMay 08 19:43
DaemonFCI mess around with Ubuntu sometimes to slap it around and see what they've done this time :PMay 08 19:43
balzacThat's why mozilla is leading the way in encouraging and supporting open standards for video and svgMay 08 19:43
_Hicham_DaemonFC : then run Firefox with root privilegies, and see if u can update it via the menuMay 08 19:43
balzacBTW, Webex stinksMay 08 19:43
_Hicham_I tried it alreadyMay 08 19:43
_Hicham_but it is riskyMay 08 19:43
schestowitzIt's still  going mainstream. UC Berkeley Extension Offers Open Source Fundamentals Course < http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/uc-berkeley-extension-offers-open-source-fundamentals-course >May 08 19:43
balzacnow I have to go back to workMay 08 19:44
DaemonFCyou can'tMay 08 19:44
DaemonFCthe option has been left outMay 08 19:44
DaemonFCit's a compile time optionMay 08 19:44
_Hicham_noMay 08 19:44
_Hicham_run it with root privilegiesMay 08 19:44
DaemonFCand Firefox does not provide 64-bit builds anywayMay 08 19:44
_Hicham_su - c 'firefox'May 08 19:44
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DaemonFCI'm telling you, the Firefox you see in a distribution is NOT the binary provided by MozillaMay 08 19:45
DaemonFCit has been alteredMay 08 19:45
_Hicham_it is not the binary provided by Mozilla, but it is vanillaMay 08 19:45
schestowitzUbuntu Intel Performance Still In Bad Shape < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_intel_shape&num=1 > Shame on Intel again.....May 08 19:45
DaemonFCno, it's notMay 08 19:45
_Hicham_it have been linked to system librariesMay 08 19:45
_Hicham_that is the differenceMay 08 19:45
DaemonFCUbuntu has all the Debian Iceweasel patchesMay 08 19:46
DaemonFCand some of their ownMay 08 19:46
_Hicham_Ubuntu is just messing with FirefoxMay 08 19:46
_Hicham_Fedora is doing a great jobMay 08 19:46
DaemonFCno, Firefox for Linux was incredibly brokenMay 08 19:46
DaemonFCDebian fixed it and then was harassedMay 08 19:46
_Hicham_I know thatMay 08 19:46
schestowitzTrolled?May 08 19:46
_Hicham_did u use Iceweasel?May 08 19:47
DaemonFCUbuntu gets preferential treatment because they don't realyl care about horrible licensing termsMay 08 19:47
DaemonFCanyway, most distributions have gone that pathMay 08 19:47
_Hicham_I don't understand their packaging policiesMay 08 19:47
_Hicham_why provide a firefox-branding package?May 08 19:47
DaemonFCif you alter the source at all, you can't call it FirefoxMay 08 19:47
_Hicham_since u can't install firefox without that package?May 08 19:47
DaemonFCunless they sign off on itMay 08 19:47
DaemonFCbecause Firefox is not free softwareMay 08 19:47
DaemonFCmost of the source code that goes into Firefox is free software, but the Firefox browser is notMay 08 19:48
_Hicham_Firefox is free softwareMay 08 19:48
DaemonFCit requires you to agree to their EULAMay 08 19:48
DaemonFCwhich stipulates that you must destroy all copies if they order you toMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_the brand is notMay 08 19:49
DaemonFCwhich automatically makes it non-freeMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_it is still freeMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_Debian was not clear on this pointMay 08 19:49
DaemonFCno, that goes against the definition of free softwareMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_not free softwareMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_against DFSGMay 08 19:49
_Hicham_there is a differenceMay 08 19:49
DaemonFCyou can't say "It's free software, but you have to destroy it if we tell you to, and you can't modify it"May 08 19:49
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_Hicham_that is not what mozilla saidMay 08 19:50
DaemonFCif you build the browser without their branding and their EULA termsMay 08 19:50
_Hicham_u really don't get the pointMay 08 19:50
DaemonFCit's free softwareMay 08 19:50
DaemonFCas Firefox it is notMay 08 19:50
schestowitzHmmmmmmmm..May 08 19:50
schestowitzCheck this outMay 08 19:50
schestowitzEllison:May 08 19:50
schestowitz=======May 08 19:50
schestowitzA. No. Our primary reason for designing our own chips is toMay 08 19:50
schestowitzbuild computers with the very best performance, reliability andMay 08 19:50
schestowitzsecurity available in the market. Some system features workMay 08 19:50
schestowitzmuch better if they are implemented in silicon rather thanMay 08 19:50
schestowitzsoftware. Once we own Sun, we'll be able to plan and synchronizeMay 08 19:50
schestowitznew features from silicon to software, just like IBM and theMay 08 19:50
schestowitzother big system suppliers. We want to work with Fujitsu toMay 08 19:50
schestowitzdesign advanced features into the SPARC microprocessor aimed atMay 08 19:50
schestowitzimproving Oracle database performance. In my opinion, this willMay 08 19:50
schestowitzenable SPARC Solaris open-system mainframes and servers toMay 08 19:50
schestowitzchallenge IBM's dominance in the data center. Sun was veryMay 08 19:50
schestowitzsuccessful for a very long time selling computer systems basedMay 08 19:50
schestowitzon the SPARC chip and the Solaris operating system. Now, withMay 08 19:50
schestowitzthe added power of integrated Oracle software, we think they canMay 08 19:50
schestowitzbe again.May 08 19:50
_Hicham_that is why u contribute back to mozilla?May 08 19:50
_Hicham_why/howMay 08 19:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: The Chrome binaries are free software right? :) Same difference.May 08 19:51
DaemonFCChromium is free software, Chrome isn'tMay 08 19:51
DaemonFCsame goes with FirefoxMay 08 19:51
schestowitzRed HatMay 08 19:51
_Hicham_Firefox is free, its brand notMay 08 19:51
DaemonFCif you compile Chromium, you can do whatever you want with itMay 08 19:51
_Hicham_no one can use trademarked logosMay 08 19:51
DaemonFCbut if you use Chrome it is nonfree software with a EULAMay 08 19:51
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DaemonFCFirefox itself is nonfree software with a EULAMay 08 19:52
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_Hicham_did u read the EULA carefully?May 08 19:52
DaemonFCeven though 99.999% of the stuff that went in it is free softwareMay 08 19:52
_Hicham_except the logosMay 08 19:52
_Hicham_is there anything wrong with logos?May 08 19:52
DaemonFCright, but their EULA makes it nonfree when distributed as FirefoxMay 08 19:53
_Hicham_I send a mail to Eric Dorland, Iceweasel maintainer about thatMay 08 19:53
DaemonFCit then becomes proprietary commercial softwareMay 08 19:53
_Hicham_really funnyMay 08 19:53
schestowitzNot so good: Solution Provider Acquires Open Source Specialist < http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/05/07/solution-provider-acquires-open-source-specialist/ >May 08 19:53
DaemonFCI'd say just strip the damned branding and you have the same thing, possibly betterMay 08 19:53
_Hicham_when a company want some trademark protection, it is called non freeMay 08 19:53
DaemonFCbecause you can optimize it however you likeMay 08 19:53
DaemonFCbut brand name mindshare matters more to UbuntuMay 08 19:54
_Hicham_why not collaborate with Mozilla?May 08 19:54
MinceRso oracle doesn't see slowlaris for the dinosaur it is either.May 08 19:54
DaemonFCnobody says you can't do bothMay 08 19:54
_Hicham_why be ingrateful to upsteam projects?May 08 19:54
_Hicham_you gonna make things worse by doing thatMay 08 19:55
DaemonFCdisagreeing with their nonfree terms for Firefox doesn't stop a distribution from contributing patches to the free source codeMay 08 19:55
_Hicham_and that is one of the reasons why Firefox Linux is progressing slowlyMay 08 19:55
DaemonFCwhat distributions should do is get together, release a name and artwork into the public domain, and just all agree to use thatMay 08 19:55
_Hicham_no real cooperationMay 08 19:55
_Hicham_there is already a name : FirefoxMay 08 19:56
_Hicham_distributions should follow Fedora wayMay 08 19:56
_Hicham_ship a vanilla FirefoxMay 08 19:56
_Hicham_that what distros should doMay 08 19:56
_Hicham_Debian, in README file of Iceweasel package recommends producing bugs in a vanilla FirefoxMay 08 19:58
_Hicham_so that u can report a bug properlyMay 08 19:58
_Hicham_why add that overhead?May 08 19:58
DaemonFChttp://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3801/46197053.pngMay 08 20:01
_Hicham_nice imageMay 08 20:02
DaemonFCmy favorite guest is Windows 3.1May 08 20:04
DaemonFCwith IE 5May 08 20:05
DaemonFC:PMay 08 20:05
MinceRwhy does upstream make it a nonfree product then?May 08 20:05
*DaemonFC has every Windows and DOS ever releasedMay 08 20:05
DaemonFCand some that weren'tMay 08 20:05
DaemonFCcause Mozilla is the douchiest douches in doucheville?May 08 20:06
DaemonFC*shrugs*May 08 20:06
MinceR(offtopic) http://static.syswear.com/images/t-shirts/folded/jesus_saves_folded_marge_black_folded.pngMay 08 20:06
MinceRDouchess of the Douchy of Doucheville?May 08 20:06
*DaemonFC digs his Windows 95 disc outMay 08 20:09
DaemonFCjust for the hell of itMay 08 20:09
DaemonFChmmm, pick a WindowsMay 08 20:10
DaemonFCWindows Me perhaps?May 08 20:10
schestowitzMinceR: maybe Oracle wants to own its OSMay 08 20:17
schestowitzIt can own Solariis, no?May 08 20:17
schestowitzBut it's too deep in Linux, tooMay 08 20:17
schestowitzIt could combine it with ZFS which is now ownsMay 08 20:17
DaemonFChehMay 08 20:18
DaemonFCSlowlarisMay 08 20:18
schestowitzDaemonFC: it looks wrong when Vista uses Fedora wallpaperMay 08 20:18
schestowitzJust got a little scoop on SCOMay 08 20:19
schestowitzvia the MOG articleMay 08 20:19
DaemonFCmehMay 08 20:19
schestowitz"As usual, she can't get the finer points right.  My eyewitness does notMay 08 20:19
schestowitzagree with even the factual elements.May 08 20:19
schestowitzBut McConnell is a Bush conservative, who is a member of theMay 08 20:19
schestowitzFederalist Society and was a member of Lawyers for Bush/Cheney, whichMay 08 20:19
schestowitzwas co-chaired by John Yoo of torture memo fame.May 08 20:19
schestowitzwhat all that means I don't know. It could mean SCO hopes he'll helpMay 08 20:19
schestowitzthem, being of a mindset they think will be like theirs.   Lots ofMay 08 20:19
schestowitzfolks admire the guy, including liberals, though. But I can't help butMay 08 20:19
schestowitznotice all the emphasis she places on things he allegedly said.May 08 20:19
schestowitzThere's no transcript, so trolls can say whatever they want, pretendMay 08 20:19
schestowitzthey attended, whatever. No doubt they are and will. It's just a waitMay 08 20:19
schestowitzand see thing."May 08 20:19
DaemonFCVista doesn't come with any decent wallpapersMay 08 20:19
schestowitzUS job cuts slow in April < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/us_april2009_jobs_report/ > 'Only' half a millionMay 08 20:21
schestowitzMaybe the money that OBAMAA is printing provides a temporary cushion (for the rich)May 08 20:22
schestowitzDaemonFC: I have Vista wallpapersMay 08 20:22
schestowitzSome are OKMay 08 20:22
DaemonFCschestowitz: When I am king, the penalty for using RAR will be death by waterboardingMay 08 20:24
DaemonFC:)May 08 20:24
schestowitzVoltaire's sales plummet in Q1 < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/08/voltaire_q12009_numbers/ >May 08 20:25
schestowitzARR.......May 08 20:25
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'm installing WinFLPMay 08 20:26
schestowitzre RAR punishment, Candy and Cheney will salivate over the very ideaMay 08 20:27
schestowitzWindows 7 makes me laugh < http://thebeezspeaks.blogspot.com/2009/05/windows-7-makes-me-laugh.html > hear, hear.May 08 20:27
DaemonFCschestowitz: You may like thisMay 08 20:28
DaemonFCgimme a minute to uploadMay 08 20:28
DaemonFChttp://img6.imageshack.us/img6/8070/88092008.pngMay 08 20:29
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schestowitzMarbux is  feeding the standard trolls (Alex) and bragging about it. http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office-comment/200905/threads.html#00003May 08 20:30
DaemonFCa typical WinFLP install it 651 megsMay 08 20:31
DaemonFCor 1/6th the size of XPMay 08 20:31
MinceRschestowitz: so isn't Oracle Red Hat^W^WUnbreakable Linux good enough? :>May 08 20:32
schestowitz"We've got a pretty lively conversation going. Interesting but noMay 08 20:32
schestowitzsurprise (to me) that Rob has expressed no interest in fixing theMay 08 20:32
schestowitzspecification in relevant regard, either in his posts or on theMay 08 20:32
schestowitzmailing list. That's nothing new. He's made a years-long writtenMay 08 20:32
schestowitzrecord of his desire to keep ODF dark and mysterious. Only his excusesMay 08 20:32
schestowitzchange."May 08 20:32
schestowitzDamnMay 08 20:32
schestowitzThose MS trollsMay 08 20:32
DaemonFCInternet Explorer is an OPTIONAL componentMay 08 20:32
DaemonFCand so is Media PlayerMay 08 20:32
schestowitzSo is secuerityMay 08 20:32
MinceRit's so optional they're setting it as the default browser in a vista7 "upgrade"May 08 20:34
DaemonFChmmmMay 08 20:35
schestowitzWe've just made FP of LT \o/May 08 20:35
DaemonFCWinFLP is essentially XP without the crapMay 08 20:35
DaemonFCneedless to say most of XP is goneMay 08 20:36
DaemonFCI may put this on my laptop to play with it on real hardwareMay 08 20:36
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schestowitzElectronic voting - Free software and transparency are not enough http://www.h-online.com/open/Electronic-voting-Free-software-and-transparency-are-not-enough--/features/113230/May 08 20:41
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schestowitzMicrosoft Airlines < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137254/microsoft-airlines > speaking of which, the Windows shop called FAA is, well.. http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137251/faa-admits-hackersMay 08 20:51
DaemonFChmmmmMay 08 20:55
DaemonFCVirtualBox has seamless modeMay 08 20:55
DaemonFCI'm running XP apps on my Vista desktopMay 08 20:55
DaemonFC:PMay 08 20:55
schestowitzDell does Linux+SSD :-) http://www.i4u.com/article24659.html (Dell Mini 10 Netbook Available with Ubuntu and SSD Option)May 08 21:01
schestowitzWhat?May 08 21:01
schestowitzYou run XP?May 08 21:01
schestowitz :-)May 08 21:01
schestowitzWhat's wrong with Vista?May 08 21:01
schestowitzIt's like a person who goes to 2 restaurant in a row for each course :-)May 08 21:02
schestowitzInstead of one that serves starters and desserts tooMay 08 21:02
DaemonFChmmmMay 08 21:02
DaemonFCmonthly Democrat meeting is tomorrowMay 08 21:02
schestowitzWill Bush attend?May 08 21:03
DaemonFChahMay 08 21:03
schestowitzWhy not?May 08 21:03
schestowitzC'mon, waterboarding is fun to watchMay 08 21:04
DaemonFCwelll....May 08 21:04
DaemonFCit's just the county Democrats :PMay 08 21:04
schestowitzI didn't say he'd be on the desk with themMay 08 21:04
DaemonFCWhether you are switching from Netscape Navigator or just want to use more than one browser, it's easy to learn and use Internet Explorer.May 08 21:06
DaemonFC:)May 08 21:06
DaemonFChttp://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1375/94707187.pngMay 08 21:10
schestowitzhaha.May 08 21:15
schestowitzHow many megs?May 08 21:15
schestowitzAre you on dialup? :pMay 08 21:15
DaemonFCnoMay 08 21:16
DaemonFCcableMay 08 21:16
schestowitzSugarCRM's John Roberts is leaving. As much as I like FOSS, I can't consider this good news. But Sugar ain't so open.May 08 21:17
schestowitzWindows=make one imageMay 08 21:17
DaemonFCit offered me SP3May 08 21:17
schestowitzLinux=update once in several monthsMay 08 21:17
DaemonFCbut then failed because I didn't have some necessary updatesMay 08 21:17
DaemonFC:PMay 08 21:17
schestowitzXP SP2 is years oldMay 08 21:17
schestowitznew distro comes upMay 08 21:18
schestowitzYou upgradeMay 08 21:18
schestowitzANDMay 08 21:18
schestowitzYou get newe FEATURESMay 08 21:18
DaemonFCservice packs usually have a few new featuresMay 08 21:18
DaemonFCnothing too exciting thoughMay 08 21:18
schestowitzJRuby will survive after Oracles buys Sun, engineer says - IDGMay 08 21:18
schestowitzYeah, new features like WGAMay 08 21:19
schestowitzOops, I mean activiationMay 08 21:19
schestowitzSeagate is notorious for poor Linux support but here it is USING Linux: http://www.infoworld.com/d/storage/blackarmor-nas-polished-storage-server-open-source-heart-634May 08 21:20
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DaemonFCschestowitz: WinFLP can even run everyone's favorite browserMay 08 21:23
DaemonFChttp://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1375/94707187.pngMay 08 21:24
schestowitzHere is a progress report on SA's move to Free software in govt': http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/software/2009/0905061034.asp?O=FPTOP&S=IT%20in%20Government&A=ITGMay 08 21:24
schestowitzThe's the prev screenshotMay 08 21:24
DaemonFCerrrrMay 08 21:24
schestowitzUpdatesMay 08 21:24
DaemonFCoddMay 08 21:24
DaemonFCgot the wrong oneMay 08 21:25
schestowitzMySQL eventually does go to Wall Street.. sorta.. http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Marketcetera-985263.htmlMay 08 21:26
MinceRm$ helps us spread gnu/linux by improving WGA in vista7 >> http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/08/1858226&from=rssMay 08 21:27
schestowitzMarbux is there bickering after he and the ODF Foundation he was in threw a fit.May 08 21:27
schestowitzbackground about the ODF Foundation: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/11/01/odf-foundation-stunt/ http://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/06/opendocument-foundation-civil-war/May 08 21:30
schestowitzimproved advantageMay 08 21:30
schestowitzWGA=yummyMay 08 21:30
schestowitzWGA: WHOSE advantage? Customers? No. Microsoft? No? Linux? Ding sing sing.May 08 21:31
schestowitzWGA: WHOSE advantage? Customers? No. Microsoft? No? Linux? Ding ding ding.May 08 21:31
MinceR:)May 08 21:32
schestowitzToo many typos for me in IRC...May 08 21:32
DaemonFCAccording to Joe Williams, general manager for Worldwide Genuine Windows at Microsoft, counterfeit software 'delivers a rich user experience and improves customer satisfaction with our products, particularly if users  know that they just saved $300 and don't have to deal with the product activator.'May 08 21:33
DaemonFC:)May 08 21:33
DaemonFCooopsMay 08 21:33
DaemonFCthat was from that bizarre alternate universeMay 08 21:33
schestowitzI like the /. headlineMay 08 21:33
schestowitzMicrosoft fight for all of usMay 08 21:33
schestowitzAgainst people with eye patches and canonsMay 08 21:33
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MinceRharr!May 08 21:34
schestowitzFreeriders would be a better fit as a fair word in this caseMay 08 21:34
MinceRwell, pirates are cool now :>May 08 21:34
DaemonFChttp://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=B0AACB27-707D-4ED1-8BD9-25A821096281&displaylang=enMay 08 21:35
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schestowitzToday in the news: Pirate Party 3rd Largest Political Party in Sweden http://torrentfreak.com/pirate-party-3rd-largest-political-party-in-sweden-090506/May 08 21:35
DaemonFCService Pack 3 for Windows Embedded for Point of Service and Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCsMay 08 21:35
DaemonFCno wonder the XP SP3 package refused to installMay 08 21:36
MinceRwow, MICROS~1 is trying to win the Longest Product Name AwardMay 08 21:36
MinceRin casual conversation, it's probably better to just call that WINDOW~1May 08 21:36
schestowitz Blackbetter on open source: "There may be parts it makes sense to open source - BlackBerry has a rich and strong environment and it delivers on a set of promises. There may be some open source stuff that makes sense. Different parts of the app set makes sense to open source [but] it hasn't been a big pressure point [for RIM]."May 08 21:37
schestowitzhttp://networks.silicon.com/telecoms/0,39024659,39427547,00.htmMay 08 21:37
amd-linuxr8, especially since u have to pay royalties for filenames longer than 8.3...May 08 21:37
schestowitzyesMay 08 21:38
schestowitzthat's what harald sezMay 08 21:38
schestowitzGENUINE ADVANT~1May 08 21:38
amd-linuxlol :_)May 08 21:38
torosrotfl :)May 08 21:38
amd-linuxbtw, heise has a new english website, just in case u guys do not already have on your RSS lists:May 08 21:39
amd-linuxhttp://www.h-online.comMay 08 21:39
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wispygalaxyhi everyone!May 08 21:39
torosthat's funny... they made a crippled filesystem with 8.3 filenames (even Commodore 64 could more)May 08 21:39
wispygalaxyhey torosMay 08 21:40
torosthen they made an ugly hack for this filesystemMay 08 21:40
DaemonFCVFATMay 08 21:40
DaemonFC:PMay 08 21:40
torosand then they forced everybody to support this crippled, faulty by design filesystemMay 08 21:40
amd-linux8.3 was enhanced by MiNT, an Atari Gemdos enhancement in 1994May 08 21:40
torosand now they even attack people because of using itMay 08 21:40
wispygalaxyhi daemon and amd-linuxMay 08 21:40
amd-linuxi just dont find more than articles that indirect proof this :-(May 08 21:41
amd-linuxGemdos was file system compatible to MS-DOSMay 08 21:41
torosMiNT... I remember it...May 08 21:41
torosMiNT is not TOS :)May 08 21:41
amd-linuxmany Germans where working on it, Julian Reschke for exampleMay 08 21:41
wispygalaxyhey is roy here?May 08 21:41
torosit runs on Atari FalconMay 08 21:42
amd-linuxand ST/TTMay 08 21:42
torosand maybe Atari TT?May 08 21:42
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amd-linuxKobold was a file copy progrm that converted 8.3 to long filenames and vice versa...May 08 21:43
amd-linuxalso Atari ST7TT/FalconMay 08 21:43
amd-linuxbut added this feature past 1995 :-(May 08 21:44
amd-linuxdoh!May 08 21:44
*_Hicham_1 (n=hicham@wana-99-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovellMay 08 21:45
torosohh, the good old timesMay 08 21:45
torosI was 13 :)May 08 21:45
amd-linuxme too i started with atari 800May 08 21:45
amd-linuxXLMay 08 21:45
amd-linuxFloppy Disk 1050May 08 21:46
torosI started with C64, and then switched to PC (386DX)May 08 21:46
amd-linuxreal machines for real boys :-)May 08 21:46
torosbut I had later a hardcore Amiga1200 :)May 08 21:46
schestowitzMore folding: Sparxent to Acquire Data Integration Company, XAware < http://sev.prnewswire.com/computer-software/20090506/SF1151906052009-1.html >May 08 21:46
toroswith powerPC turbocardMay 08 21:46
amd-linuxmee too, switched to 486 for my Fidonet mailboxMay 08 21:46
schestowitzHi, wispygalaxy May 08 21:46
wispygalaxyhi roy!May 08 21:47
_Hicham_1Hi wispygalaxy!May 08 21:47
wispygalaxyim packing up and heading home for the summer, school's out here!May 08 21:47
schestowitzamd-linux: I've been subs to Heise for yearsMay 08 21:47
amd-linuxand I installed OS/2, all 14 or so disksMay 08 21:47
wispygalaxyhey hicham!May 08 21:47
trmancohi wispygalaxyMay 08 21:48
wispygalaxyim off until late august from collegeMay 08 21:48
wispygalaxyhiya tony :)May 08 21:48
amd-linuxThe H was new to me, I hope they now translate more German news in to EnglishMay 08 21:48
wispygalaxytony, are you on summer vacation now?May 08 21:48
schestowitzamd-linux: the H is just Heise contentMay 08 21:48
schestowitzSometimes you see the same posts in both sitesMay 08 21:48
schestowitzc't is a popular sourceMay 08 21:48
trmancowispygalaxy, no, not yetMay 08 21:49
amd-linuxfor example, Heise Germany has a Linux website user share of now 14% and it is not a Linux specific site. In contrary to these alleged 1%May 08 21:49
amd-linuxin the USMay 08 21:49
wispygalaxyoh thats too bad, tonyMay 08 21:49
amd-linuxCT is the last man standing of printed IRMay 08 21:49
schestowitzamd-linux: we have more Linux visitors than Windows visitorsMay 08 21:49
amd-linuxIT magazinesMay 08 21:49
schestowitzWELT is out too?May 08 21:49
schestowitzAnd SpiegelMay 08 21:50
amd-linuxWelt is right wingMay 08 21:50
wispygalaxyi just wanted to stop by and say hello; i'll be back on monday since im busy this weekendMay 08 21:50
schestowitzOKMay 08 21:50
amd-linuxSpiegel is more left and tabloidMay 08 21:50
schestowitzUse the summer for good cause ;-)May 08 21:50
wispygalaxygotta do some spring cleaning at home lolMay 08 21:50
schestowitzI know I will do COmes like crazyMay 08 21:50
wispygalaxyhaha roy ;)May 08 21:50
schestowitzThat's my plan for JuneMay 08 21:50
wispygalaxyit's such a nice day today; i wish i wore shortsMay 08 21:50
schestowitzGirls and shorts?May 08 21:51
amd-linuxOn Spiegel Online, Linux last year had a share of 4%? And Spiegel online was no. 332 or something in alexa webstats at that timeMay 08 21:51
schestowitzNo dresses or skirts?May 08 21:51
wispygalaxyyeah, i got lots of them in different colors roy ;)May 08 21:51
wispygalaxyoh i have skirts, tooMay 08 21:51
schestowitzamd-linux: I read that in laptops in Germany, market share for Linux is 6%May 08 21:51
torosMy small free-software site has twice as much readers using Liferea Feed Reader than Internet Explorer :)May 08 21:51
wispygalaxyok i have to finish up packing, see ya guys!May 08 21:52
schestowitzMaybe it's Firefox masquerading as IEMay 08 21:52
torosLiferea is az 6%, and IE az 3% :)May 08 21:52
schestowitzSome people do thatMay 08 21:52
schestowitzPoor IEMay 08 21:52
wispygalaxytake care roy ^_^May 08 21:52
schestowitzSuch a bad brwwoserMay 08 21:52
schestowitzYou tooMay 08 21:52
wispygalaxythanks heheMay 08 21:52
amd-linux6% is realistic, yesMay 08 21:53
trmancocya wispygalaxyMay 08 21:53
amd-linuxmany people use Linux now at homeMay 08 21:53
_Hicham_1fuck IEMay 08 21:53
wispygalaxybye tony, have a nice weekendMay 08 21:53
trmancosame to youMay 08 21:53
wispygalaxytyMay 08 21:53
_Hicham_1have a nice vacation wispygalaxyMay 08 21:53
wispygalaxyhicham, see you soonMay 08 21:53
torosin Hungary Linux is more popular than MacOS XMay 08 21:53
wispygalaxythanks, i will!  i cant wait to go to the beachMay 08 21:54
schestowitzBlackboard To Buy Out Angel Learning < http://www.thejournal.com/articles/24349 >May 08 21:54
schestowitzWhen they sell themselves it means they gave upMay 08 21:54
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schestowitztrmanco: did you reply to _Hicham_ ? ;)May 08 21:54
trmancoschestowitz, where?May 08 21:55
schestowitzSee logMay 08 21:55
schestowitz:-)May 08 21:55
schestowitzI kidMay 08 21:55
trmancoI left my client on focus and I'm might of missed somethingMay 08 21:55
trmancoI*May 08 21:55
trmancofor a couple of hours, ok I'll checkMay 08 21:55
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*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))May 08 21:59
schestowitz<_Hicham_1> fuck IEMay 08 21:59
schestowitz<trmanco> same to youMay 08 21:59
schestowitz:-pMay 08 21:59
_Hicham_1hahahahahahahaMay 08 21:59
trmancoah crapMay 08 21:59
trmancothatMay 08 22:00
trmancololMay 08 22:00
trmancoyou missed a dent :-PMay 08 22:00
trmanco<_Hicham_1> fuck IEMay 08 22:00
trmanco<wispygalaxy> bye tony, have a nice weekendMay 08 22:00
trmanco<trmanco> same to youMay 08 22:00
trmanco<wispygalaxy> tyMay 08 22:00
trmanco:-PMay 08 22:00
_Hicham_1:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-P:-PMay 08 22:00
_Hicham_1if I had the time I would reverse engineer internet explorer and compile it natively on linuxMay 08 22:01
_Hicham_1with ActiveX/OLE and all the fussMay 08 22:02
trmanco_Hicham_1, what for, it won't complieMay 08 22:02
trmancocompile*May 08 22:02
_Hicham_1well, Internet Explorer calls can be mapped to Unix callsMay 08 22:03
_Hicham_1I am talking of implementing COM+/OLE on Linux nativelyMay 08 22:03
_Hicham_1that way MFC apps can be runMay 08 22:03
schestowitzanother open source acquisition: QinetiQ Acquires Cyveillance, Inc. to Strengthen Cyber Security Dominance with Leading Open Source Intelligence Solutions < http://networking.itbusinessnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=738065 >May 08 22:03
_Hicham_1which will have drastic consequencesMay 08 22:04
trmanco#ifdef compiler (GCC) -> crash(1) ;#endifMay 08 22:04
trmancowaitMay 08 22:04
schestowitzHehe.May 08 22:04
schestowitzJust sent it to Microsoft'c oompilerMay 08 22:05
trmanco#ifdef __GCC__;  crash(); #endifMay 08 22:05
schestowitzIt'll self destructMay 08 22:05
_Hicham_1no, the proper preprocessor is : #ifdef __GNUC__ _do_it_the_right_way(free_components); #endifMay 08 22:05
trmancowait, let me improve it moreMay 08 22:05
_Hicham_1and the main loop is is :May 08 22:06
schestowitzGah! I'm tired of articles that say things like "using open source-like methods"May 08 22:06
schestowitzOr "in the spirit of open sourcE"May 08 22:06
schestowitzTo energy, to sex, to wine, food... ANYTHING... open source this and thatMay 08 22:07
schestowitz*sigh*May 08 22:07
schestowitzhttp://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20090507_9008.phpMay 08 22:07
DaemonFChttp://www.bill-mcminn.com/techreview/winflp.htmlMay 08 22:07
_Hicham_1while(ur_on_linux){feel_at_home(personal_data); dispatch_messages_to_schestowitz;}May 08 22:07
schestowitz"One way is to apply open source principles to software development. "May 08 22:07
schestowitz_Hicham_1: HELOMay 08 22:07
schestowitzREJECT 501: INBOUND MAIL BLACKLISTED();May 08 22:08
trmanco#ifdefMay 08 22:08
trmanco__unix__;May 08 22:08
trmancocrash();May 08 22:08
trmanco#endifMay 08 22:08
trmanco#if GCC_VERSION > 1.0May 08 22:08
trmancoblow_up();May 08 22:08
schestowitzeWeek: Researchers Release Bootkit Code Targeting Windows 7May 08 22:08
_Hicham_1IE already runs on Linux with WineMay 08 22:10
schestowitzMicrosoft patents ODF in Costa Rica < http://bsolano.com/Article39.html >May 08 22:10
_Hicham_1Firefox IE tab have been reported to work on Linux tooMay 08 22:10
DaemonFCWinFLP does indeed work well enough on systems that came with Windows 98May 08 22:16
DaemonFC:PMay 08 22:16
DaemonFCI just threw it on an old K6/2 550 with 256 megs of RAMMay 08 22:16
DaemonFCruns fineMay 08 22:16
schestowitzIT tab? No thanks. :-)May 08 22:18
DaemonFC"It is too easy to understand why Microsoft’s motive in not selling Windows Fundamentals to the consumer, fear of poaching sales of Windows Vista and all the new hardware that goes with it."May 08 22:19
schestowitzIt's for Web designers that test for retarted stuffMay 08 22:19
DaemonFCwell, hehMay 08 22:19
schestowitzOr users of retarded Web siteMay 08 22:19
DaemonFChe does have a pointMay 08 22:19
schestowitzDaemonFC: broken window theoryMay 08 22:20
DaemonFCMicrosoft restricted WinFLP and created a market for either Linux adoption or old copies of Windows that don't get security updatesMay 08 22:20
schestowitzOr planned obsolescenceMay 08 22:20
DaemonFCwhich are prime targets for botnetsMay 08 22:20
schestowitzI used Windows 98 on a partition until 2005May 08 22:20
schestowitzOld laptopMay 08 22:21
schestowitz400MhzMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCthis laptop came with XPMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCWinFLP runs much better thoughMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCI also have a copy of Windows Vista they sent for itMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCI cheated the Express Upgrade program and got a free Vista Basic discMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCit barely runs thoughMay 08 22:21
DaemonFCso I got what I paid for :)May 08 22:22
_Hicham_1why even use Windows?May 08 22:22
DaemonFCschestowitz: 98 was technically supported til mid-2006May 08 22:22
DaemonFCsecurity patches onlyMay 08 22:22
_Hicham_1I don't even think of developing applications for itMay 08 22:22
_Hicham_1I have done an OpenGL program last semester on Windows just because the professor don't use LinuxMay 08 22:23
_Hicham_1but I hated itMay 08 22:23
DaemonFCwell, ironically Microsoft partners like Starfuck and ScrewUROM are making it so much easier to throw down Windows and walk awayMay 08 22:23
DaemonFCwhy have it if you can't even run software you legally bought and paid for?May 08 22:23
DaemonFC:)May 08 22:23
_Hicham_1Win32 API is the most hideous API that I have worked withMay 08 22:24
DaemonFCand lets not forget Mackerel-VisionMay 08 22:24
DaemonFCDMay 08 22:24
DaemonFC:DMay 08 22:24
_Hicham_1better use GTK is you want a cross platform appMay 08 22:24
_Hicham_1but I am having problems with GTK OpenGLMay 08 22:24
_Hicham_1the doc is confusingMay 08 22:25
DaemonFCwell, companies like EA have basically just about destroyed the last decent excuse to use WindowsMay 08 22:25
_Hicham_1there is interesting Game Engines on LinuxMay 08 22:25
DaemonFCbefore you buy a game you have to figure out what the copy restriction DRM is likeMay 08 22:26
_Hicham_1plus OpenGL is more developer friendly than DirectXMay 08 22:26
DaemonFCif it's something like SecuROM I don't even buy the gameMay 08 22:26
DaemonFCfuck themMay 08 22:26
_Hicham_1DirectX is just a messMay 08 22:26
DaemonFCthey aren't worth my moneyMay 08 22:26
_Hicham_1there are some interesting games on LinuxMay 08 22:26
trmancoDaemonFC, starforce is worseMay 08 22:26
_Hicham_1problem is with testingMay 08 22:26
schestowitzMicrosoft's ODF snub gets Digg's FP http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_now_attempt_to_fragment_ODF_STANDARDS_SABOTAGEMay 08 22:27
_Hicham_1the only game that worked out of the box for me was postal2May 08 22:27
DaemonFCno halfway credible game company will do business with StarforceMay 08 22:27
DaemonFCnot even EA will touch them anymoreMay 08 22:27
DaemonFCYou want me to type a serial? fine.May 08 22:27
trmancoEA usually uses securom amd safediscMay 08 22:27
trmancoand*May 08 22:28
DaemonFCYou want me to call you and activate it? ok.May 08 22:28
DaemonFCYou start telling me it's only good on one computerMay 08 22:28
DaemonFCor that I can only activate it X timesMay 08 22:28
DaemonFCthat's way too farMay 08 22:28
schestowitzAntitrust? For Microsoft? Naaa, give it another 5 years after the impact of crime is irreversible and then fight for 5 years against Microsoft-hired guns like ACT, IASA, and CompTIA to just earn a puny fine.May 08 22:28
DaemonFCI'm not going to pay $60 for a game to be told I can only activate it 3 timesMay 08 22:29
DaemonFCEVERMay 08 22:29
_Hicham_1Games needs intensive testing on LinuxMay 08 22:30
DaemonFCthat would be like paying full retail price for a car that would only start 10 timesMay 08 22:30
DaemonFCnobody would put up with that shitMay 08 22:30
DaemonFCthe place would go underMay 08 22:30
_Hicham_1do u play games on Linux?May 08 22:30
DaemonFCthere's only  a hand full of decent games that work on WineMay 08 22:30
DaemonFCthat's fairly hit or missMay 08 22:30
_Hicham_1I am talking about native gamesMay 08 22:31
_Hicham_1no wine gamesMay 08 22:31
DaemonFCI only found like 4 of them that I've boughtMay 08 22:31
DaemonFCin the last 8 yearsMay 08 22:31
schestowitzHoly Spin (Thurrot), batman. "Open-Source World Rallies Around Microsoft, Thanks It for Adding ODF Support to Office 2007" http://windowsitpro.com/mobile/pda/Article.cfm?ArticleID=102077&News=1May 08 22:32
DaemonFCthat's like 1/2 of a decent retail game per year that lands on LinuxMay 08 22:32
_Hicham_1did they work out of the box?May 08 22:32
DaemonFCHoly Freaking Spinjob Ass-SpelunkermanMay 08 22:32
DaemonFCO RLY?May 08 22:32
DaemonFC:)\May 08 22:33
DaemonFCI really hate that manMay 08 22:33
DaemonFCI mean, liking most of the stuff that comes out of Microsoft might passMay 08 22:33
DaemonFCbut to him they never do anything badMay 08 22:33
DaemonFCeven Vista was a great thingMay 08 22:34
schestowitz#twitter is down for maintenanceMay 08 22:34
schestowitz4 hoursMay 08 22:34
DaemonFCVista is OK if you have a really really powerful PCMay 08 22:34
_Hicham_1Vista is not OK whatever PC u haveMay 08 22:34
schestowitz:-)May 08 22:35
schestowitzDefective by DesignMay 08 22:35
DaemonFCbut if your system came with *anything* other than Vista, you're wasting your time trying to upgradeMay 08 22:35
trmancoTheora encoder improvements : http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2009/05/theora-encoder-improvements.htmlMay 08 22:35
_Hicham_1I will never buy a PC with Windows PreinstalledMay 08 22:35
DaemonFCschestowitz: I'm talking about how it's not doable on systems that are maxed out at like 1 gig of RAMMay 08 22:35
DaemonFCI didn't really intend to buy a system with Vista, funny storyMay 08 22:36
DaemonFCthey said no OS and it came with VistaMay 08 22:36
DaemonFC*shrugs*May 08 22:36
_Hicham_1fuck Vista shippers a big fuck in their assMay 08 22:36
DaemonFCand the other copy I got was cause I got bored and punched in my old laptops serial on HP's Express Upgrade siteMay 08 22:36
DaemonFCand got a copy in the mailMay 08 22:36
DaemonFC:PMay 08 22:36
_Hicham_1I am hating Windows everyday more and moreMay 08 22:36
DaemonFCjust lucky I guessMay 08 22:37
DaemonFC:)May 08 22:37
DaemonFCI'm thinking about copying down the serial number off a demo computer and trying thatMay 08 22:37
DaemonFCsee if I can get Windows 7 for freeMay 08 22:37
_Hicham_1If only Linux Distros can unify their package managementMay 08 22:37
schestowitzI see FSF venom nowMay 08 22:38
schestowitzSmears and stuff :--(May 08 22:38
schestowitzI suppose those who call FSF things lie "hippies" never bothered to look back at others whose attribution is sheer hypocrisy.May 08 22:38
DaemonFCschestowitz: It's like I'm a magnet for Windows CDsMay 08 22:38
DaemonFC:PMay 08 22:38
_Hicham_1Linux is clean by DesignMay 08 22:38
DaemonFCI've bought one for every 20 I getMay 08 22:38
DaemonFClolMay 08 22:38
_Hicham_1everything is controlledMay 08 22:38
schestowitz_Hicham_1: easy with the language buddyMay 08 22:38
schestowitzSome readers might not like it.May 08 22:38
_Hicham_1what won't they like?May 08 22:39
schestowitz<_Hicham_1> fuck Vista shippers a big fuck in their assMay 08 22:39
schestowitzWe don't need to be classy, but let's not be crudeMay 08 22:39
schestowitzSOme people use it against usMay 08 22:40
schestowitzOutside IRCMay 08 22:40
_Hicham_1I said that once to a PR manager at Microsoft France who came to MoroccoMay 08 22:40
_Hicham_1to showcase us the latest in Web Development in Visual Studio 2008May 08 22:41
_Hicham_1fun of the story : Vista wasn't able to detect the Video ProjectorMay 08 22:42
_Hicham_1I offered him a Live Linux CD to help him outMay 08 22:42
_bgtr4and he was glad to use itMay 08 22:43
_Hicham_1he refused gently and went back to a Windows XP machineMay 08 22:43
_bgtr4then he made a vow to never ever use m$ again at presentationsMay 08 22:43
_Hicham_1He can'tMay 08 22:44
_Hicham_1he is in PRMay 08 22:44
schestowitzHAHAMay 08 22:44
schestowitzthe profressional LiarsMay 08 22:44
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving")May 08 22:44
schestowitzBe careful of an anti-Linux site called "Ubuntu Syndrome". There are others such flamefests.May 08 22:47
trmancolots of people are attacking google againMay 08 22:49
_Hicham_1Ubuntu doesn't deserve all the fussMay 08 22:49
schestowitzHaha. http://agnipulse.com/2009/05/10-reasons-why-ubuntu-is-a-big-failure-in-india/May 08 22:50
schestowitz"So the Ubuntu Developers should rename the Unmount Option for USB Drives to Safey Remove USB Drive.An icon should also be displayed in the taskbar to Safely Remove USB Drive."May 08 22:50
schestowitzSummary: it's not like Windows. Wah Wah!!May 08 22:50
_Hicham_1India is FedoraMay 08 22:50
schestowitztrmanco: yes, Microsoft funds all sort of cheerleaders to spearhead attacks on GoogleMay 08 22:50
schestowitz_Hicham_1: ayeMay 08 22:50
schestowitzThey have BOSSMay 08 22:51
schestowitzProbably wasted effort for the most partMay 08 22:51
_Hicham_1RedHat India is very activeMay 08 22:51
_Hicham_1who wasted effort?May 08 22:51
schestowitzThe suits are spoiling the brew by daemonising communities now.  '"Dogpiling" on the OpenSource Community' < http://linuxgeeksunited.blogspot.com/2009/05/dogpiling-on-opensource-community.html >May 08 22:53
trmancoPHP 5.3 RC2 Optimized for Windows: http://news.softpedia.com/news/PHP-5-3-RC2-Optimized-for-Windows-111168.shtmlMay 08 22:54
schestowitz_Hicham_1: BOSSMay 08 22:54
schestowitzSay some people I know from IndiaMay 08 22:54
trmancoif something bad happens to php because of Microsoft, I'll go to the HQ myself and tear the hq apart myselfMay 08 22:55
schestowitzTheir explanation sounds plausible and reasonableMay 08 22:55
schestowitzBOSS does seem to have slowed down a bitMay 08 22:55
*trmanco is sleepyMay 08 22:55
schestowitztrmanco: Zend of PHP?May 08 22:55
trmancoyesMay 08 22:55
schestowitzPHP from Zend runs on Linux 95% of the timeMay 08 22:55
schestowitzZend said so last monthjMay 08 22:55
_Hicham_1PHP should be abandoned on WindowsMay 08 22:55
schestowitzThey just test it on WindersMay 08 22:55
trmancoit runs a lot better on linux trust meMay 08 22:55
schestowitzWinders is the toy platformMay 08 22:56
_Hicham_1Windows should be cleaned from Open Source ProgramsMay 08 22:56
schestowitzLinux is the big iron :-)May 08 22:56
_Hicham_1Windows must be run with Pirated Only SoftwareMay 08 22:56
schestowitz_Hicham_1: better solution:May 08 22:56
trmancopeople who program php on windows are programming non-standard php/htmlMay 08 22:56
schestowitzMake all FOSS nagwareMay 08 22:56
schestowitzBut only on WindowsMay 08 22:56
schestowitz"Pay $5 or get free on Linux"May 08 22:56
_Hicham_1schestowitz : Like old Qt LicenseMay 08 22:57
_Hicham_1I really liked old qt licenseMay 08 22:57
trmancoone example, if you do not start you php session before any html is sent on *nix system ,the script will throw a warning and will stop, on windows, it doesn't happen...May 08 22:57
_Hicham_1it is the greatest license I have ever seenMay 08 22:57
schestowitzTim O'Reilly on the origins of open source < http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/tim-oreilly-origins-open-source-346 > Will he attribute RMS?May 08 22:58
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mib_hjwxc4http://fora.tv/2009/05/06/Steve_Ballmer_Opportunities_in_Difficult_Times#Microsoft_is_Like_a_Startup_in_Search_Says_BallmerMay 08 22:58
trmancomy classmates give me there scripts from time to time to help them fix errors. the thing is, I can't help them because they don't write there code like they are suppose to...May 08 22:58
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trmancoit's exhausting to tell them to start there sessions before any html headers are sent, but they just won't listenMay 08 22:59
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trmancohahahaMay 08 23:03
trmanco"PHP tagsMay 08 23:03
trmancoMicrosoft Active Server Pages (ASP)-style tags — the shorter version of the PHP tags — are no longer supported. To make sure this is not an issue for your scripts, verify that you aren't using the <% or %> tags in your PHP files. Replace them with <?php and ?>. "May 08 23:03
trmancohttp://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-php-future/May 08 23:03
trmancostupid asp tags are finally going to be kicked outMay 08 23:04
_Hicham_1fuck ASP pagesMay 08 23:06
schestowitzI Had a Dell Recall Battery? An Ubuntu 9.04 Feature Told Me So. < http://www.geeknewscentral.com/2009/05/07/i-had-a-dell-recall-battery-an-ubuntu-904-feature-told-me-so/ >May 08 23:07
schestowitzWhich project will win best Commercial Open Source Project? < http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/which-project-will-win-best-commercial-open-source-project-739 >May 08 23:08
schestowitztrmanco: building a url shortener?May 08 23:09
trmancoIBM tackles Microsoft with blade servers and cloud services: http://www.betanews.com/article/IBM-tackles-Microsoft-with-blade-servers-and-cloud-services/1241808583May 08 23:09
trmancoschestowitz, yeahMay 08 23:09
schestowitzAny others?May 08 23:09
schestowitzLike prior ones?May 08 23:09
schestowitztinyurl loses momentumMay 08 23:09
schestowitzAfter a head startMay 08 23:09
trmancoI already have deprecated functionsMay 08 23:09
schestowitzsnipurl alsoMay 08 23:09
trmancobt.lyMay 08 23:09
schestowitzis that foss?May 08 23:09
trmancothere is a bunchMay 08 23:09
trmancoog fosseMay 08 23:09
trmancokissabeMay 08 23:10
schestowitzog?May 08 23:10
trmancohttp://code.google.com/p/kissabe/May 08 23:10
trmancohttp://kissa.be/May 08 23:10
schestowitzIt would be nice to make shortener in my siteMay 08 23:10
schestowitzOr pastebinsMay 08 23:10
schestowitzOr photobinMay 08 23:10
schestowitzon one's own domainMay 08 23:10
schestowitzI have lots of programs on schestowitz.comMay 08 23:10
schestowitzPHP for the most partMay 08 23:10
schestowitzEven spreadsheetMay 08 23:11
schestowitzAnd cite managerMay 08 23:11
schestowitzDiary/calendarMay 08 23:11
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trmancopastebin is also gpl'edMay 08 23:12
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schestowitzHere's one of those blogs that just pose a question echoing something that's actually news: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=593 Will Linux own the cloud?May 08 23:16
schestowitzBlankenhorn does this a lotMay 08 23:16
schestowitzI hate it when people compare foss to sports: http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/05/07/football-clubs-and-free-software-projects/May 08 23:20
schestowitzAnything religious or tribal being associated with FOSS is hurtful to the scientific imageMay 08 23:21
schestowitzSeattle man attacks Ubuntu: "My name is Matthew, I’m currently residing in Seattle, WA." http://gramourshots.com/about/May 08 23:25
schestowitzThe apple doesn't fall far from the RedmondMay 08 23:25
schestowitzTroubled Times: The X.org As We Know It, Is Over… < http://www.linuxcauldron.com/?p=697 >May 08 23:26
MinceRgnMay 08 23:39
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LastGuyonEarthHowdy.May 08 23:42
schestowitzHeyMay 08 23:45
schestowitzWhat's up?May 08 23:45
LastGuyonEarthI'm just working on making my laptop Free Software-compatible.May 08 23:45
LastGuyonEarthI'm working on getting rid of AIM, MSN, Yahoo, proprietary social networks, etc.May 08 23:46
LastGuyonEarthThe only downside is that I'll have to buy a new wireless card with Free firmware/drivers/May 08 23:46
LastGuyonEarthKind of an exciting week for me, really.May 08 23:46
schestowitzThere is a company that sells pCs with gnewsenseMay 08 23:47
LastGuyonEarthLos Alamos?May 08 23:47
LastGuyonEarthI've read about them. Promising, but I'm just going to make do with what I have for the time being.May 08 23:47
LastGuyonEarthHere's a blog post with some of my plans, anyways.May 08 23:47
LastGuyonEarthhttp://seanrtilley.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-refactoring-for-me.htmlMay 08 23:47
schestowitzhttp://laclinux.com/gnu/News#20080501.1May 08 23:48
LastGuyonEarth*reads*May 08 23:48
schestowitzHey, SeanMay 08 23:48
LastGuyonEarthHowdy, Roy.May 08 23:48
schestowitzI can now correlate to commentsMay 08 23:48
LastGuyonEarthHow's life on your end?May 08 23:48
schestowitzOh waitMay 08 23:48
schestowitzWonderboyMay 08 23:49
schestowitzI know the blogMay 08 23:49
LastGuyonEarthYeah, I went fully on command-line for 30 days last year.May 08 23:49
schestowitzYesMay 08 23:49
LastGuyonEarthI've been all over the computing world, and am finally settling down.May 08 23:49
schestowitzTuxMachines followed itMay 08 23:49
LastGuyonEarthUnix was fun for a while, but I'm done with it.May 08 23:49
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LastGuyonEarthBut ultimately I'm focusing on making my life as Free from proprietary companies/software/platforms as possible.May 08 23:51
schestowitzWith GPU it's challengingMay 08 23:51
schestowitzI use nvidia driversMay 08 23:51
LastGuyonEarthNouveau is making progress.May 08 23:52
LastGuyonEarthI'm not sure as to whether the Radeon still has that undocumented code in it.May 08 23:52
schestowitzAMD released new stuff todayMay 08 23:53
schestowitzisMay 08 23:53
schestowitz*ishMay 08 23:53
schestowitzhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide&num=1May 08 23:53
LastGuyonEarthYeah, I read about that a bit.May 08 23:54
LastGuyonEarthDid they remove the undocumented code from it yet?May 08 23:54
LastGuyonEarthIt would make it ever so lovely.May 08 23:54
LastGuyonEarthIf not, I can live with waiting for stable nouveau drivers.May 08 23:54
schestowitzF11 will have themMay 08 23:56
schestowitzAlanW did a marathon for it evenMay 08 23:57
schestowitzI think f11 is a month awayMay 08 23:57
LastGuyonEarthGood for them.May 08 23:57
LastGuyonEarthI've never been too fond of RPM-based package management myself.May 08 23:57
LastGuyonEarthIt seems to take forever on my clunky old machines.May 08 23:57
schestowitzPut it in another virtual desktop and forget about itMay 08 23:59
LastGuyonEarthlolMay 08 23:59
schestowitzI just put it in desktop 7May 08 23:59
LastGuyonEarthWhile that sounds all good and dandy, I'm more comfortable with APT myself.May 08 23:59
schestowitzI have this picture of my grandfatherMay 08 23:59

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