IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 9th, 2009

schestowitzLike the type who would sit there watching the thing printMay 09 00:00
schestowitzFull atttendance, no multitaskingMay 09 00:00
LastGuyonEarthhaha!May 09 00:00
LastGuyonEarthGotta love old-school machines.May 09 00:00
schestowitzMultitasking is something that is less natural to certain workersMay 09 00:00
LastGuyonEarthIndeed.May 09 00:00
schestowitzLikewise management of bits as opposed to paperMay 09 00:00
schestowitzLike organising versionbMay 09 00:00
schestowitzSome people still send PDfs back and forthMay 09 00:00
schestowitzYou can get them to trust WikisMay 09 00:00
LastGuyonEarthheh.May 09 00:01
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LastGuyonEarthTo be entirely fair, I don't see anything wrong with using a wiki as a reference point for understanding something.May 09 00:03
schestowitzEditing thingsMay 09 00:03
schestowitzOr managing in a CMSMay 09 00:03
LastGuyonEarthUnderstood.May 09 00:03
LastGuyonEarthHowever.May 09 00:03
schestowitzSo anyway...May 09 00:03
schestowitzRPM speed is no big issueMay 09 00:03
schestowitzUnless you depend criticially on propagaationMay 09 00:03
LastGuyonEarthI've just had nothing but bad experiences for myself.May 09 00:04
schestowitzLike if you depend on it to complete before you can, I dunno, browse the Web.May 09 00:04
LastGuyonEarthThat said, Fedora has always been an excellent distro for general desktop use.May 09 00:04
LastGuyonEarthAnd updating in and of itself is simple enough.May 09 00:04
schestowitzSpeed is less important than reliability and consistencyMay 09 00:04
schestowitzBetter than DLL hellMay 09 00:04
schestowitzOr...May 09 00:04
schestowitzRebootMay 09 00:04
LastGuyonEarthThis is very true.May 09 00:04
schestowitzWould you like that beter? :-)May 09 00:04
LastGuyonEarthRegardless, both of us can agree that Linux has made much improvement on package management.May 09 00:05
LastGuyonEarthRegardless of preference.May 09 00:05
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LastGuyonEarthGot sort of quiet all of a sudden.May 09 00:06
schestowitzNot reallyMay 09 00:07
schestowitzWell, I remember deps in SUSE 8.1May 09 00:07
schestowitzIt was harderMay 09 00:07
schestowitzNo repos almostMay 09 00:07
LastGuyonEarthI remember SuSE.May 09 00:08
LastGuyonEarthI didn't care much for it.May 09 00:08
LastGuyonEarthStarting up and setting up OpenSuse 10.0 was a pain.May 09 00:09
LastGuyonEarthIt was nice-looking.May 09 00:09
LastGuyonEarthAnd the modifications to KDE4 were interesting.May 09 00:09
LastGuyonEarthBut package management and driver installation made me want to crawl into a fetal position and cry.May 09 00:09
DaemonFCschestowitz: 09 00:10
LastGuyonEarthWow.May 09 00:10
LastGuyonEarthFat lot of good that must be.May 09 00:11
DaemonFChehMay 09 00:11
LastGuyonEarthHe at least gets points for running VLC, Chrome, and Pidgin.May 09 00:11
DaemonFCbuy one get one freeMay 09 00:11
DaemonFCbut there's your XP ModeMay 09 00:11
LastGuyonEarthYou mean, buy one get two?May 09 00:11
DaemonFCand didn't cost me anythingMay 09 00:11
LastGuyonEarthNicely doen.May 09 00:11
LastGuyonEarth*doneMay 09 00:11
LastGuyonEarthI'm really impressed with the OGG Theora playback in Firefox 3.5bMay 09 00:13
LastGuyonEarthI like the little JavaScript player that is drawn atop the videos.May 09 00:14
LastGuyonEarthVery neat.May 09 00:14
DaemonFCI'm playing with WinFLP some moreMay 09 00:14
DaemonFCIE is an optionMay 09 00:14
DaemonFC:)May 09 00:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: hows mem usage?May 09 00:14
DaemonFCso are Media Player and DirectXMay 09 00:14
LastGuyonEarthWith Firefox and Opera gaining support for OGG playback, it'll only be a matter of time before Webkit adopts it.May 09 00:15
DaemonFCfairly good actuallyMay 09 00:15
LastGuyonEarthThen IE will have to support OGG.May 09 00:15
LastGuyonEarthYay!May 09 00:15
DaemonFCit will run decently all the way down to 128 megs of RAMMay 09 00:15
DaemonFClower than 64 an it will thrash the swap fileMay 09 00:15
DaemonFCso you definitely are in the ballpark of some old XP machinesMay 09 00:16
DaemonFCmaybe even some that shipped with 98 or MeMay 09 00:16
DaemonFCthe difference is that this runs decentlyMay 09 00:16
LastGuyonEarthHeh.May 09 00:17
DaemonFCschestowitz: The only problem is that if you don't have IE, then programs that embed it will bitchMay 09 00:17
DaemonFCor refuse to runMay 09 00:17
DaemonFCthose are easy to avoidMay 09 00:17
DaemonFCyou will need DirectX obviouslyMay 09 00:17
DaemonFCMedia Player, not so much really since it's just a DirectShow frontendMay 09 00:18
DaemonFCit does do what it's meant for, you can trim it to do custom tasks even if you don't give it support for the restMay 09 00:19
DaemonFCso it can be anything from totally gutted to near full XP ProfessionalMay 09 00:19
LastGuyonEarthGasp.May 09 00:19
LastGuyonEarthI just deleted my YouTube account.May 09 00:19
LastGuyonEarthGo me.May 09 00:19
schestowitzWhy?May 09 00:23
schestowitzDelete?May 09 00:23
schestowitzOh privacy?May 09 00:23
schestowitzI'm sure Google keeps a copyMay 09 00:23
schestowitzvisibility=off;May 09 00:23
schestowitz/ cia_visibility=on;May 09 00:23
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LastGuyonEarthWell, that and the fact that YouTube has a pretty tenacious grip of what kind of content you can post.May 09 00:24
LastGuyonEarthIt's all become heavily corporatized anyway.May 09 00:24
LastGuyonEarthI moved to for the time being, as it at least allowed me to upload all my videos in OGG Theora.May 09 00:24
LastGuyonEarthAnd people can play and download the videos in OGG.May 09 00:25 can be boughtMay 09 00:31
schestowitzYou never know...May 09 00:31
schestowitzGoogle bought YouTubeMay 09 00:31
schestowitzMicrosoft stuck it bas teeth in a soapboxMay 09 00:32
schestowitz*itsMay 09 00:32
LastGuyonEarthI know.May 09 00:34
LastGuyonEarthBut it's the best I've got for the moment.May 09 00:34
LastGuyonEarthIf only TheoraSea did uploads...May 09 00:34
DaemonFCOK, I worked it outMay 09 00:35
schestowitzIt doesn't??May 09 00:35
DaemonFCthe furthest you can trim WinFLP is 611 megsMay 09 00:35
DaemonFCthat's installed sizeMay 09 00:35
LastGuyonEarthschestowitz: TheoraSea only aggregates links to OGG Theora videos, which are streamed through its iTheora player.May 09 00:36
LastGuyonEarthThere's also still no free replacement for Facebook or Myspace, even though some really excellent GPL platforms are out there.May 09 00:36
LastGuyonEarthElgg is really promising.May 09 00:36
DaemonFCthe bad news is you can't use Windows UpdateMay 09 00:37
DaemonFCthe good news is that all the security updates are for IE and Windows Media Player anywayMay 09 00:37
LastGuyonEarthschestowitz: Interesting article on SCO.May 09 00:38
LastGuyonEarthYour latest one, I mean.May 09 00:38
DaemonFCthe control panel applet still works though :)May 09 00:38
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LastGuyonEarthI'm heading out to eat.May 09 00:42
LastGuyonEarthTalk to you guys later.May 09 00:42
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_Hicham_who is still here?May 09 00:52
schestowitzo/May 09 00:53
_Hicham_I thought u went to bedMay 09 00:53
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DaemonFCI spoke too soonMay 09 00:57
DaemonFCapparently it only deleted IE, not their rendering engineMay 09 00:57
DaemonFCsetting a few registry keys fools programs into thinking IE is still thereMay 09 00:58
_Hicham_did u delete mshtml.dll?May 09 01:03
schestowitzWe have a little situation not being able to find a very important article (see details in ). Is there any way we could get it restroted or get hold of it?May 09 01:07
schestowitz_Hicham_: is an IE guruMay 09 01:07
schestowitzKnows every corner of the BeastMay 09 01:07
schestowitzGot problems with IE? _Hicham_ 's your GUY!May 09 01:08
_Hicham_schestowitz : I will write IE for Linux when I will have time toMay 09 01:09
_Hicham_like that, Windows Users will feel at homeMay 09 01:10
_Hicham_basically, IE is a GUI wrapper around mshtml.dllMay 09 01:10
_bgtr4yeah, also write m$office for linuxMay 09 01:11
_Hicham_Microsoft offers a rich API to do soMay 09 01:11
_Hicham_no, MS Office, noMay 09 01:11
_bgtr4and a project serverMay 09 01:12
_Hicham_I won't then release it under GPLMay 09 01:12
_bgtr4but the main thing is to rename button to "start"May 09 01:12
_Hicham_I will release it under my favorite License : Qt LicenseMay 09 01:13
_Hicham_you can rename the button to start or whatever you wantMay 09 01:13
_Hicham_in gnome it is very simple, u just modify ur current theme start-here fileMay 09 01:13
_Hicham_in KDE, I don't knowMay 09 01:14
DaemonFC 09 01:14
_Hicham_what is this image for?May 09 01:18
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schestowitzDaemonFC: I watch Zeitgeist nowMay 09 01:46
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twitterPJ asks M$ for an explanation of their smear tactics. 09 06:01
twitterIt's about time their behavior was brought out into the light.May 09 06:01
twitterha another M$ victim, Dan Greer. 09 06:37
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schestowitzMorning..May 09 10:19
schestowitzMicrosoft 'Patents' ODF Whilst Also Harming It < >May 09 10:56
schestowitzWho Covers Mono Again? Microsoft. < >May 09 10:57
_bgtr4how can anyone patent saving anything in xml format?May 09 11:18
oiaohmHmm  Patents ODF this could get bad.  Direct attack on IBM and Orcale.May 09 11:18
oiaohmIts a direct attack in Orcales document management system that uses ODF internally.   So pre sun aquirement.May 09 11:20
schestowitzImpressed by OpenOffice, Bill Gates Schemes to Use Software Patents Against It < >May 09 11:23
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oiaohm   Hmm where next.May 09 11:29
schestowitzIs Microsoft Breaking the Law in Switzerland Too? < >May 09 11:35
schestowitzoiaohm: i'll add it to the next post about securityMay 09 11:36
trmanco 09 11:37
trmanco:)May 09 11:37
oiaohm100 000 is a small number of machines to turn off t once.   Wonder what the ripples when the first 1mil+ machine turn off will be.May 09 11:38
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schestowitzoiaohm: also machines at hospitalsMay 09 11:44
oiaohmPeople don't understand how much IT rules the word.May 09 11:47
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oiaohm  The cat is out bag why Sun was so desprate to sell self to someone.May 09 11:50
schestowitzOpera Complains About Vista 7 < >May 09 11:50
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schestowitzoiaohm: WORD or WORLD?May 09 11:51
oiaohmShould have been worldMay 09 11:51
schestowitzoil has more impact. energy in generalMay 09 11:52
schestowitzSomrthing odd just happend that never happend to me beforeMay 09 11:52
schestowitzIn the middle of the session the caps lock led is toggled incorrectlyMay 09 11:53
schestowitzWith CAPS enable the light is not lit and vice versaMay 09 11:53
schestowitzCan this be reset without restarting a session? It's just a visual distractionMay 09 11:53
oiaohmI know there is a way I just have not done it in ages.May 09 11:54
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schestowitzoiaohm: U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (Windows Shop) Gets Cracked Again < > This includes your link.May 09 12:22
oiaohmOk I can find how to correct it on a normal terminal and a strange note about opening openoffice and changing the caplock can fix it but no exactly 100 percent hit this fix it instructions.May 09 12:23
oiaohmFor X11 schestowitzMay 09 12:23
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schestowitzit;'s no big dealMay 09 12:38
schestowitzFirst time it ever happensMay 09 12:38
schestowitzNo idea what triggered itMay 09 12:38
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MinceRgeekingsMay 09 12:41
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schestowitzEPO and the Swiss Department of Justice Want to Make Some Free Software a Crime 09 12:50
oiaohm   I guess you have seen this already schestowitzMay 09 13:03
schestowitzyESMay 09 13:17
schestowitzit was sort of repostedMay 09 13:17
schestowitzI brought this up some days ago in IRC again :-DMay 09 13:17
schestowitzit's a very good case studyMay 09 13:17
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Omar87Hi there?May 09 13:52
schestowitzHey Omar87 May 09 13:54
Omar87Hey guys, check this out: 09 14:00
Omar87And check the last two comments (last one is mine).May 09 14:01
schestowitzIt's true.May 09 14:02
Omar87schestowitz: What is?May 09 14:05
oiaohmThat MS dropped the ball on operating systems Omar87May 09 14:27
Omar87oiaohm: Yeah.May 09 14:27
oiaohm  One of my most used comic strips.May 09 14:29
schestowitzdid microsoft ever have balls to begin with?May 09 14:34
schestowitzi didn't know that people even read his comic muchMay 09 14:34
schestowitzI read it for a whileMay 09 14:34
oiaohmI do up training documents I sometimes need warped examples.May 09 14:39
oiaohmIts suits perfectly on some topics.May 09 14:40
oiaohmMicrosoft got the ball with Windows 95May 09 14:40
oiaohmStumbled with it with Windows 98May 09 14:40
oiaohmRecovered with Windows 98se.   Went ass over with windows ME and minor Stuble with 2000May 09 14:41
oiaohmRecovered again with XP.  But since then its been down hill.May 09 14:41
schestowitzFor longerMay 09 14:49
schestowitzRemember separationMay 09 14:49
schestowitzMS gave lots of time for the competition to catch upMay 09 14:49
oiaohmSo trueMay 09 14:49
schestowitz95-98(3 yrs)-2000(2 yrs)-2001/XP(1-2 yrs)May 09 14:50
schestowitzMac OS X rebuiltMay 09 14:50
schestowitzWith MachMay 09 14:50
schestowitzEven some MS fans now prefer it. Pirillo, Scoble...May 09 14:50
schestowitzDid you know that the architect of Windows 95 switched to a Mac?May 09 14:51
oiaohmLinux development has not been what you call fast.May 09 14:51
oiaohmConstant but not fast.May 09 14:51
MinceRthey dare call themselves "architects"?May 09 14:55
MinceRi think some enraged architects should lynch them for that.May 09 14:55
oiaohmThere are some highly suspect real world architects out there as well MinceRMay 09 14:56
oiaohmThere have been some good software architects.   But the bad have out numbered the good.May 09 14:57
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MinceRyes there have, but none of them have worked on windows 95May 09 15:01
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schestowitz"For some reason, this web site renders significantly different in Firefox 3.x on Windows than it does with the same version on Linux. On Linux, the menu is hosed and pretty much broken. I didn't realize that happened. I thought the rendering engine was the same, regardless. Just freaking wonderful." 09 15:06
schestowitzscrewing lightbulbs on win95May 09 15:07
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schestowitz"What we are trying to do is use our server control to do new protocols and lock out Sun and Oracle specifically” -- Bill Gates, MicrosoftMay 09 15:08
schestowitzNo exhibit. Maybe we can find it in the Comes pool tooMay 09 15:08
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schestowitz"Interesting bit about how Microsoft 'supports' cross platform, until the achieve lock-in, and then it disappears..."May 09 15:09
schestowitz"Microsoft then took the next step in its standard “embrace, extend,  extinguish” playbook and extended the Windows API without copying its changes to the WISE program. This meant that developers could no longer smoothly port applications to UNIX and Macintosh"May 09 15:09
schestowitzReader says: "Interesting bit about how Microsoft 'supports' cross platform, until the achieve lock-in, and then it disappears"May 09 15:10
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_bgtr4so according to this reader: m$ will abandon mono at some point?May 09 15:36
_bgtr4while still patenting c# partsMay 09 15:36
_bgtr4as well as some mono partsMay 09 15:37
schestowitzMaureen O’Gara is Again Spinning SCO’s Defeat < >May 09 15:40
schestowitz_bgtr4: but MS never supported MonioMay 09 15:41
schestowitzIt just allowed it to liveMay 09 15:41
_bgtr4it just made everything possible to make it liveMay 09 15:45
_bgtr4not just allowedMay 09 15:45
schestowitzG2GMay 09 15:46
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twitterI don't think there is any computer language that M$ has consistently supported.May 09 16:14
twitterThey have "extended" them all and broken their extensions.May 09 16:15
twitterC, Fortran, Java and so on and so forth.May 09 16:15
twitterlet's not forget the ever popular VBMay 09 16:15
twitterha haMay 09 16:15
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twitterJamie Candale's case pretty much sums it all up for me. 09 16:18
twitterHe took M$'s no cost compiler and made it into something better than M$'s "pro" version.May 09 16:19
twitterFor this he was made MVP then sued and forced to remove his plugins.May 09 16:19
twitterAt the time, I noted "The goal of non free software is to keep users helpless and divided, so they are not allowed to really help themselves or their neighbors."  This is the way all M$ language "support" will go.May 09 16:21
twitterTo paraphrase the SLOG.DOC, M$ employees are not working for the customer or the tech, they are working for M$ and will consistently screw the other two.May 09 16:22
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bgrt4that's the purpose of crap-market, twitterMay 09 17:13
bgrt4people buy crap and they actually have nothing to buy elseMay 09 17:13
twitterI'm not sure what you mean.May 09 17:13
bgrt4the competition goes between companies where they sell crappier crap for more money and pay less when it gets returnedMay 09 17:14
bgrt4twitter, the market entered quite a new eraMay 09 17:14
bgrt4where quality means nothingMay 09 17:14
twitterquality means a lot to me, which is why I use free softwareMay 09 17:15
bgrt4it's something that's hard to encrap :)May 09 17:15
twitterYes, I think M$ will run out of money before they can sabotage free software.May 09 17:16
schestowitztwitter: yes, glad you found the MVP exampleMay 09 17:52
schestowitzMicrosoft doesn't like its products improved 'too' much by volunteersMay 09 17:52
schestowitzThey must stay crippledMay 09 17:52
twitterit's really a good example of how they do thingsMay 09 17:53
twitterwhat you do on "their" platform is inferior by design.May 09 17:53
twitterif you overcome their design limitations, they bring out the lawyersMay 09 17:53
twitterand lie about youMay 09 17:54
twittersome rewardMay 09 17:54
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schestowitzMicrosoft says EU may boost Google dominance: report < >May 09 18:11
schestowitzAny response to the hypocrisy of Microsoft? 09 18:11
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schestowitzGoogle to Advertise Chrome on TV 09 18:19
schestowitzMOZILLA CAN'T AFFORD THATMay 09 18:21
schestowitz Obama to scrap funding for abstinence-only programsMay 09 18:22
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Omar87Hi there.May 09 18:36
schestowitztrmanco is in  google newsMay 09 18:40
schestowitzSun: 'We may have violated bribery laws' 09 18:45
schestowitzLIKE MSMay 09 18:45
schestowitzIIRC IBM did this in KoreaMay 09 18:46
schestowitzMicrosoft does it everywhereMay 09 18:46
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schestowitzSomeone copied our article... Who Covers Mono Again? Microsoft.  < >May 09 18:47
Carl_Rover2k12you should message the administrator or author of that website and ask if they can post a hyperlink to the originalMay 09 18:50
Carl_Rover2k12actually it looks like someone responded by posting a link to the originalMay 09 18:51
Carl_Rover2k12its crap like this that makes people have less faith in non-AP reportingMay 09 18:51
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schestowitzap.. heh..May 09 18:53
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: or Reuters.. but mostly APMay 09 18:54
schestowitzI don't like either oneMay 09 18:54
schestowitzReuters for many reasonsMay 09 18:54
schestowitzStarting from bullying of EndNote exporter to Linus-hostile article and copyright greedMay 09 18:55
schestowitzBut nothing bears Associated Gangsters ( that's what I call them)May 09 18:55
schestowitz*beatsMay 09 18:55
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: yea, they do a better job of telling misinformation through knee jerk tabloid reporting that gets on the front page or in the headlines, but then apologies and corrects months later in a tiny link on their websiteMay 09 18:56
Carl_Rover2k12thats if they ever thoroughly fact check itMay 09 18:56
schestowitzSE: Municipalities ask software vendors to use open standards  < >May 09 18:58
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: wow, those munis are a ton more knowedgable then the racketeers which currently inhabit all the big positions in my townMay 09 18:59
schestowitzCheck with whom? :-)May 09 18:59
schestowitzThat Microsoft controls "95% of desktops"?May 09 18:59
schestowitzSource: MicrosoftMay 09 18:59
schestowitzSun: 'We may have violated bribery laws' 09 19:00
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: if you mean by jounalistic fact checking, that is done through a peer review of other journals who go back to the source and through interviews and investigation gather if the article initially reported holds any facMay 09 19:00
Carl_Rover2k12factMay 09 19:00
schestowitz May 09 19:00
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: I don't know what to trust anymoreMay 09 19:01
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: yea, yet M$ gets away with bribing Indian officials to stick their OS on many workstations that run the governmentMay 09 19:01
schestowitzBooks may be as inaccurate as the Internet thoughMay 09 19:01
schestowitzPeople love to blame Wikipedia and stuffMay 09 19:01
schestowitzLike that French musician most recentlyMay 09 19:01
schestowitzI think they need a  scapegoat and attack in the pressMay 09 19:01
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: also many companies do bribing abroad, it has almost become the defacto of business in Asian and African nations.May 09 19:01
schestowitzThe likes of AP need to get people scared of WikipediMay 09 19:02
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: can you link me an article of Wiki fear mongering?May 09 19:02
schestowitzWell, no transparencyMay 09 19:02
schestowitzCOmpanies and multinationals are tyrannies by definitionMay 09 19:02
twitterthere are dozens of wikipedia smear jobsMay 09 19:02
schestowitzThere is no regulation inside at allMay 09 19:02
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I thought they would be working Wikileaks over moreMay 09 19:03
schestowitzCraigslist tooMay 09 19:03
schestowitzThey complainedMay 09 19:03
schestowitzThe papers HATE CragslistMay 09 19:03
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I mean one of Wikileak's lawyers was killed in a mafia style hitMay 09 19:03
schestowitzIt takes their life supply (classified)May 09 19:03
schestowitzSo they report lots of negative things about it... most recently prostitutionMay 09 19:03
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: they hate all of the internet because by technical definition it is beyond their regulatory jurisdiction or venueMay 09 19:04
schestowitzReally?May 09 19:04
schestowitzWikileaks lawyer?May 09 19:04
schestowitzAny link for that?May 09 19:04
Carl_Rover2k12hold onMay 09 19:04
schestowitzWowMay 09 19:04
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: here it is: 09 19:05
schestowitzThey were raised before and Barclay's too was furious, Baer likewise... they are good at exposing truthMay 09 19:05
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: one of the articles states he use to work with Wikileaks on certain casesMay 09 19:05
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: Kenya..May 09 19:05
schestowitzNot that it makes it OKMay 09 19:05
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: well, he is a human rights lawyer, and what better way then some no-faced person to bribe the clown gangs there to kill himMay 09 19:06
schestowitzBut wait...May 09 19:06
schestowitz"<Carl_Rover2k12> twitter: I mean one of Wikileak's lawyers was killed in a mafia style hit"May 09 19:06
schestowitzWait a second..May 09 19:06
schestowitzI thought you mean the lawyer representing them..May 09 19:06
schestowitzI see nowMay 09 19:06
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: just realised wrong link: 09 19:07
schestowitzOhMay 09 19:07
schestowitzOK, I'm catching upMay 09 19:07
Carl_Rover2k12still both were human rights attourniesMay 09 19:07
schestowitzSounds contradictoryMay 09 19:08
twitteryikesMay 09 19:08
schestowitzLawyer... human rights... never mindMay 09 19:08
twitternot all lawyers are scum.May 09 19:08
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: well there are many attornies who persue pro bono causesMay 09 19:08
twitterjust the ones that sell themselves out to scumMay 09 19:08
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: don't lob patent lawyers in the same boat as everyone elseMay 09 19:08
twitterbooks are every bit as inaccurate as the web.May 09 19:11
twitteraccuracy is not a function of media, it's a function of researchMay 09 19:11
twitterand practiceMay 09 19:11
schestowitzThe good, the bad and the Vista. < >May 09 19:11
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_Hicham_Hi All!May 09 19:12
twitternot much about Vista in that link.  Just a false perception that what's bad for M$ is bad for everyone.May 09 19:15
twitterM$'s failure is only bad for M$ and people who invested in monopoly and greed.May 09 19:16
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: books have a tendancy to be more accurate though because there is not time constraint, as well as a good timely revisionMay 09 19:16
twittereveryone is under time pressure and books can not be revised as quickly as electronic publication.May 09 19:17
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: that is why there is fact checkingMay 09 19:17
twitterbooks have a tendency to not be written and once written to not be published.May 09 19:18
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: sure there are many books in which the author uses their own hunch more then research, but usually those don't stick around in the front of bookstores for long unless its in the clearance binMay 09 19:18
twittertruth comes from everyone being able to contribute, books are limiting in a way that's detrimental to that conversation.May 09 19:18
twitterbookstores are filled with drek just like the web isMay 09 19:19
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: but for a well researched book about economics, sociology and ect. The author quotes and sources different opinions including ones that they personally interviewedMay 09 19:19
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I would tend to think internet articles can learn a thing or two from boooksMay 09 19:19
twitterthe same author is better off just publishing the same material on the web and many now do.May 09 19:19
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: only bookstores like Borders and Barnes and Noble which focus more on selling then contributing to learningMay 09 19:20
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: a public library is a very different placeMay 09 19:20
twitterthe only difference is that the web version is easier to find, index and referenceMay 09 19:20
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: but that easier capability tends to make some authors lazy since they feel for any inaccuracies, they can leave it to others to pick up onMay 09 19:20
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: just look at blogs like Engadget and GizmodoMay 09 19:21
twitterpublic libraries have a hard time offering electronic publications thanks to paper publishers, everyone loses.May 09 19:21
twitterlike I said, truth and accuracy are not dependent on publication method, they depend on the author.May 09 19:21
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: no they don't, they have the computer labs and printers connected to the internet, what other tools are needed. Libraries are there to contribute to the paper medium, whether it be books, magazines or newspaper archivesMay 09 19:21
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: how many websites do a good job archiving their information from 10-20 years back?May 09 19:22
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Yahoo just pulled the plug on Geocities without giving anyone a chance to archive all of itMay 09 19:22
twitterit is not up to websites to do that, it is up to librariansMay 09 19:22
twitterGoogle and the internet archive do a good jobMay 09 19:23
twitterpublishers usually don'tMay 09 19:23
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: how so, libraries just provide the medium to look at information, its up to the person's discretion on what to look upMay 09 19:23
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: publishers don't because there is already a slew of public libraries and the Library of Congress in the US that doesMay 09 19:23
twitterlibraries index their collections ... or shouldMay 09 19:24
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: the only website which has anywhere close to good indexing is archive.orgMay 09 19:24
twitterthey should also make indexed duplicates of electronic publications of interest, like the internet archive doesMay 09 19:24
twitterthe internet archive is a libraryMay 09 19:24
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: why if the internet services already do that?May 09 19:24
twitteras you pointed out, they often dont'May 09 19:25
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Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Libraries are already short enough on funds, they can't afford large databasesMay 09 19:25
twitteror they can't afford paperMay 09 19:25
twitteror to pay greedy journal publishersMay 09 19:25
twitterand other parasitesMay 09 19:25
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: why waste so much paper printing out internet articles when someone can walk go onto a computer connected to a printer and do it themselves?May 09 19:25
twitterwho's talking about printing?May 09 19:26
twitterdatabases are cheaper than paperMay 09 19:26
twitterlook to the internet archive as a proper exampleMay 09 19:26
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Public Libraries don't have to pay publishers, there are federal funds that contribute a little bit of royalties but it is mostly done for the public goodMay 09 19:26
twitterLOL.  Journals are very expensive.May 09 19:27
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: yea, but good luck trying to scan in every book in a library and index it properly only to have problems with the resolution or formatMay 09 19:27
twitterYou and I pay the price one way or another.May 09 19:27
twitterGoogle and others are busy scanning books.May 09 19:27
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: yea and sometimes they are distorted because the book is in a non-standard size formatMay 09 19:27
twitterIn the mean time, there's no reason to publish on paper anymore.  This avoids the problem for the futureMay 09 19:27
twittereverything is created electronically.May 09 19:28
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: or they can only have parts of the book because publishers state they can't because of royalty reasonsMay 09 19:28
twitterthe simple solution is to ignore the parasites and publish yourselfMay 09 19:28
twitterand we are back to square one.May 09 19:29
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: in short Google is a private corporation, they would have to pay a hefty sum to put all the books online, Public Libraries are government run for the public good so they have regulations protecting them from being extorted. But the funding they get is insufficient for electronically archiving and why would they if they conflict with companies like Google?May 09 19:29
twitterthe root of your problems are copyright lawMay 09 19:29
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: well it depends, there are many smaller publishers that only care about you paying them a lump sum to produce X amount of booksMay 09 19:29
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: if an author expects to have movie contracts and ect they go to the conglomeratesMay 09 19:30
twitterI'm not interested in those authorsMay 09 19:30
twitterare you?May 09 19:30
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: no, but that is our choice. Who is to argue about their'sMay 09 19:30
twitterI won't.  but I won't provide tax money to support them either.  let them rot with paper publishersMay 09 19:31
twittertruth and accuracy will not be harmedMay 09 19:31
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: believe it or not copyrighted works can co-exist with public ones. I just don't like how the copyrighters tend to lash out against the public if they start to compete with their earnings, they should have thought of that before publishingMay 09 19:32
twittera better public good would allow anyone to scan and share journals and other printed materialMay 09 19:32
twittertruth comes from knowledgeMay 09 19:32
twitterpublishers are in the way of thatMay 09 19:32
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: many Public Libraries are already kind enough to scan and fax you newspaper archived slides if you askMay 09 19:32
twitterthey don't deserve public supportMay 09 19:32
twitterpublic libraries should be able to share their collections on lineMay 09 19:33
twitterthat's something worth spendingMay 09 19:33
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Public Libraries are noble instutions that shouldn't be blamed because they rely on a system that has in late become further currupt in the persuit of extracting private earningsMay 09 19:33
twitterI have not blamed themMay 09 19:33
twittermost librarians understand their missionMay 09 19:34
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: however, having public libraries doing what you described would be a conflict of interest to certain private companies, namely GoogleMay 09 19:34
twittertough for GoogleMay 09 19:34
twitterbetter to have the public interest served by eliminating copyrightMay 09 19:34
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: sadly Public Libraries may get closed as the Federal Government sees that private companies are already gathering up information and they can extract earnings from them well devesting institutions which are only a lossMay 09 19:35
twitterGoogle is smart enough to earn money anyway.May 09 19:35
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: trademarks and copyright are also what protects Google's IPsMay 09 19:35
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: it would be the equivalent to biting the hand that feeds youMay 09 19:36
twitterdon't use that term, it's wrong and confusing.May 09 19:36
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: how so? Google gets most of their revenue from advertisers and shareholders who have the interest that Google's IPs remain strongly their'sMay 09 19:37
twitterIP is bullshit.May 09 19:37
twitterplease explain what you are trying to sayMay 09 19:37
twitterand what that has with me being able to share journal articles and other knowledge with my peersMay 09 19:38
twitterI think that you are trying to tell me that restricting people's ability to share knowledge is in the public interest.  I strongly disagree.May 09 19:40
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: trying to lump general peer sharing with IPs is overkillMay 09 19:42
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twitterWhat is IP?May 09 19:43
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Intelectual Property covers a wide range of ideas, art and publications.May 09 19:43
twitterrestrictions on peer sharing is what this is all aboutMay 09 19:43
twitterIP is a propaganda term designed to confuse issues.  Please talk about one thing at a time.May 09 19:43
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: no IPs protect certain indivisuals from having their ideas which can help them earn a living from being stole or exploitedMay 09 19:43
twitterplease be specificMay 09 19:44
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: you are the one lumping the problem of jounalists not being able to freely peer review with IPs.May 09 19:44
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: if journalists wanted to do that more they wouldn't be earning their living on AP and ReutersMay 09 19:44
_Hicham_they think that if they close piratepay, they will be doneMay 09 19:44
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: its all a matter of clear choiceMay 09 19:45
_Hicham_they are very wrongMay 09 19:45
twitteryou are not being clear at all RoverMay 09 19:45
Carl_Rover2k12_Hicham_: what the record industry involved in the MAFIAA is propagating is a corrupt and imoral use of copyright, which is in fact clear extortion of artistsMay 09 19:45
trmancoschestowitz, where?May 09 19:45
trmancoomgMay 09 19:46
trmancodid I really make it :-PMay 09 19:46
twittercopyright, as it is, is rather corrupt and immoralMay 09 19:46
twitterwe would all be better off without itMay 09 19:46
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: IPs offer a path of legal persuit for those that wish to use it, if they want to make it more open they can at the expense of having next to no legal protection in today's court system.May 09 19:46
twitterI don't see copyright law protecting authors at allMay 09 19:47
twitterI see people having their works taken down and used all the timeMay 09 19:47
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: you maybe better off without it, but not the artists. And no I am not saying what the MAFIAA tries to convince you what a copyright is, is in fact the correct term.May 09 19:47
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: which works?May 09 19:48
twitterbblMay 09 19:48
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: I hate this absolute or nothing approach most people feel it is the solutionMay 09 19:49
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: it only creates this whole Red v Blue situation that ends up making it a never ending struggle, which is exactly what certain powerful lobbies wantMay 09 19:49
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: what better way to destroy open source then to issolate it from the rest of legal society through their own user's choicesMay 09 19:50
trmancoschestowitz, where am I on googly news?May 09 19:51
schestowitztrmanco: < >May 09 19:52
schestowitzThis scraper gets picked by Google. BlechMay 09 19:53
schestowitzJustsystems Participates in ODF Alliance as Founding Member;Actively Contributing to Dissemination of a Global Standard, XML For < >May 09 19:53
schestowitzI was on the phone for like an hour, so could respondMay 09 19:53
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: can you elaborate?May 09 19:54
schestowitzAre you suggesting that they isolate rather than absorb?May 09 19:54
schestowitzWhat happens when many of them are ditched by a Better Way. Surely they have the means to attack it with law, lawyers, abuse and AstroTurfers (or corrupt judges), but still....May 09 19:55
schestowitzIn Kindle they prevent reading of booksMay 09 19:55
schestowitzIn Finland they try to illegalise sharing of physical booksMay 09 19:55
trmancoah thatMay 09 19:57
trmanco:|May 09 19:57
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: well they make open source this movement that has to be completely adverse to all intellectual property, when in fact certain open source developers can take advantage of it to protect their work. Its why GNU/GPL was originally founded.May 09 19:57
schestowitzGary and marbux still try to hurt ODF now: 09 19:57
schestowitzAll kinds of nuisanceMay 09 19:57
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: the problem with Amazon and the Kindle comes from the fact that they managed to sell their books for such low prices by bending over for the publishers who most of the time like the large record labors, don't really look out for the authors.May 09 19:57
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: yes, that's the likes of ORLYMay 09 19:58
schestowitzThe Microsofters too May 09 19:58
schestowitzSome of whom are in ORLYMay 09 19:58
schestowitzTaming and strainingMay 09 19:58
schestowitzIt's true that the problem is broaderMay 09 19:58
schestowitzWe should also look out to initiator of Novell/MS-like dealsMay 09 19:59
schestowitzThis includes IBMMay 09 19:59
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: but don't forget that it is also alienating, by saying to the likes of look at these open source whackos and the only ones which are good are the ones which colaborate with the closed onesMay 09 19:59
schestowitzHere's something I got last night.May 09 19:59
schestowitz=======May 09 19:59
schestowitzWow! What a learned reply! Not.May 09 19:59
schestowitzRoy, methinks you need to pry your head out of IBM's ass long enoughMay 09 19:59
schestowitzto see where Big Blue is leading you. IBM's path leads to a place thatMay 09 19:59
schestowitzis very ugly for FOSS and for a Free Information Infrastructure.May 09 19:59
schestowitzYou can't build a connected world without connectivity. The enemy isMay 09 19:59
schestowitzall those like Rob and the Softies who make lame excuses for delayingMay 09 19:59
schestowitzthe repair of the connectivity bugs in so-called "open standards" thatMay 09 19:59
schestowitzare in fact standards in name only, regardless of which big vendorMay 09 19:59
schestowitzwrites their particular paychecks. Not to mention one hell of a lot ofMay 09 19:59
schestowitzpeople who fell for the "Microsoft Pure Evil / IBM Pure as the DrivenMay 09 19:59
schestowitzSnow" propaganda theme.May 09 19:59
schestowitzThose factors and the utter myth of ODF interoperability propagandaMay 09 19:59
schestowitzspread by the IBM camp throughout the OOXML fiasco are the majorMay 09 19:59
schestowitzbarriers to fixing the ODF specification's connectivity bugs. They areMay 09 19:59
schestowitzthe smokescreen that IBM laid dowjn to block those proverbial thousandMay 09 19:59
schestowitzeyes from making the ODF specification's connectivity bugs shallow.May 09 19:59
schestowitzIt ain't enough to set the monopoly ablaze, Roy. Been there; doneMay 09 19:59
schestowitzthat. One need also be concerned about what arises from the monopoly'sMay 09 19:59
schestowitzashes. Been there and done that too. The news is not good.May 09 19:59
schestowitzIBM tries to kill the reputations of all messengers who dare to submitMay 09 19:59
schestowitzbug reports on the ODF specification. IBM has never had any otherMay 09 19:59
schestowitzstrategy for shielding the ODF specification from debugging. Can'tMay 09 19:59
schestowitzcome up with a good response on the technical merits of the bugMay 09 19:59
schestowitzreport? No problem. Smear the guy who made the report.May 09 19:59
schestowitzHaven't you noticed that anyone who points out connectivity bugs inMay 09 19:59
schestowitzthe ODF specification always gets smeared by the IBM camp? Sorry toMay 09 19:59
schestowitzsee you've fallen victim to the IBM character assassination tactic.May 09 19:59
schestowitzAlex Brown a "standards troll?" Lord, Luvaduck. Those bright lightsMay 09 19:59
schestowitzyou're seeing are not the Asteroid Belt, despite the resemblance.May 09 19:59
schestowitzThey're just your  neurological reaction to the pain inflicted byMay 09 19:59
schestowitzIBM's sphincter around your neck.May 09 19:59
schestowitzWarmest personal regards nonetheless. I don't envy your ignorMay 09 19:59
schestowitz====May 09 20:00
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: IBM is one of thoseMay 09 20:00
schestowitzWho try to 'bridge'May 09 20:00
schestowitzThey are very smart about itMay 09 20:00
schestowitzAs in, the way they hide itMay 09 20:00
schestowitzActing nice towards Linux and hardly even call it thatMay 09 20:00
schestowitzSeries-ZMay 09 20:01
schestowitzOr whateverMay 09 20:01
schestowitzBut they, unlike MS, don't attack LinuxMay 09 20:01
schestowitzHad OS/2 flourished, then one must wonder if IBM would be like MSMay 09 20:01
schestowitzIn the sense that it would attack rather than harness GNUMay 09 20:01
schestowitzI am going to do a post about it laterMay 09 20:01
schestowitzJust repeating my pointless requests (pressure) for IBM to kill software patentsMay 09 20:02
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: well that is a big what-if considering that IBM went open source to gather more bright talent from universities who were already in the field and take advantage of their workMay 09 20:02
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: maybe they would not have publicized it as muchMay 09 20:02
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: it was more of a matter of IBM trying to shake off their suite and tie image which made them loose favor amongst developers and those who use to make the calls within corporations for what systems to buyMay 09 20:03
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: OS/2 Warp failed because it was still assosciated with that old school way of looking at IBM as the colossal mammoth that stood in the way of the little guy with massive closed projects.May 09 20:05
schestowitzWould it be OK if I posted something  about it. I will also pressure IBM re: software patents in Europe.May 09 20:05
schestowitzBN was never a fan of IBM, which endorsed the patent deal/s.May 09 20:05
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: why are you asking me? are you going to be quoting me. IMO I am not a really realiable or good sourceMay 09 20:06
schestowitzOopsMay 09 20:06
schestowitzI meant as not as a questionMay 09 20:06
schestowitzI meant "it wouldMay 09 20:06
schestowitz"May 09 20:06
twitterbackMay 09 20:08
twitterRover, every restriction must be justified.  Copyright's restrictions were justified by the difficulty of paper publishing.  That is gone now and many no longer see the need for restrictions.May 09 20:09
twitterthe justification, in the US at least, was an enlarged public domainMay 09 20:10
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: but copyright has changed, it is no longer about the exploitation of someone printing your work word for word without permission and selling it, but taking your article word for word to garner credit for it without suchMay 09 20:10
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: peer review is great so long as one actually lists those involved and how they contributedMay 09 20:10
schestowitzIt's only justified -- poorly--by the perception that power is a right to be preservedMay 09 20:11
schestowitzIRS is unconstitutional, some sayMay 09 20:11
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: you mean the use of legal power to protect someone's ideasMay 09 20:11
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: nopeMay 09 20:11
schestowitzRestriction on sharing of knowledgeMay 09 20:11
schestowitzNot exactly the sameMay 09 20:11
twittercopyright is supposed to "protect" expressions, not ideasMay 09 20:12
schestowitzYou can get paid for ideas that are sharedMay 09 20:12
twitterthe restrictions were against paper republishingMay 09 20:12
twitterthose restrictions no longer make sense and are no longer justifiedMay 09 20:12
schestowitzA lot of artistic work is inspiredMay 09 20:13
schestowitzTake for example ShakespeareMay 09 20:13
schestowitzHe took other people's playsMay 09 20:13
schestowitzhe remixed themMay 09 20:13
schestowitzA lot of religions are the sameMay 09 20:13
schestowitzWith similar patternsMay 09 20:13
twitterPeople will express themselves regardless of restrictions.  In fact, more people will express themselves when restrictions are removed.May 09 20:13
schestowitzLike resurrection after 3 days, commandments, Gods of the sun, etc.May 09 20:13
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: which is why copyright reform should be instituted with preasure to bring more works sooner into public domainMay 09 20:13
schestowitzBack then you had no copyrightMay 09 20:14
schestowitz"hold it right there, Mr. I will call my lawyer because you stole my mythology"May 09 20:14
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: or cut the ability for businesses to copyright tiny elements of an expression which don't constitute it or even resemble another if shown on their ownMay 09 20:14
twitterfor most of recorded history there has been no copyrightMay 09 20:14
twitterirony intendedMay 09 20:14
schestowitzEven fair use is under threatMay 09 20:14
schestowitzYesterday I thought about adding a copyleft icons to all pages in BNMay 09 20:15
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: which meant that we don't have a clear picture of whom has credit for what and artists had to verbally abuse or even phsyically one another to protect their work and clientellMay 09 20:15
schestowitzI don't know how Shane would feel about itMay 09 20:15
twitterpeople will continue to tell and publish their stories, they will sing and dance, and they will entertain each other long after copyright is goneMay 09 20:15
twitterI don't need your abuse, CarlMay 09 20:15
twitterPeople know who does whatMay 09 20:16
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schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: just realise how much music is ripped offMay 09 20:16
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: que? I am just stating that copyright offers a way to easily protect people's expressions and work from being exploited by employers or offerorsMay 09 20:16
schestowitzSee how they use samples and inspirationsMay 09 20:16
schestowitzThey know itMay 09 20:16
schestowitzThey know they do itMay 09 20:16
schestowitzLike Puff Daddy picking some stingMay 09 20:16
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: but that is because some hold the legal means to pay off anyone who objectsMay 09 20:16
schestowitzHe can call it "fair use"May 09 20:16
schestowitzand play it in a loopMay 09 20:16
twitterwhat kind of exploitation can there be without copyrightMay 09 20:17
twitter?May 09 20:17
schestowitzInput output.May 09 20:17
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: actually many indivisuals are running into problems trying to sell remixes because of the grasp the MAFIAA has on the legal systemMay 09 20:17
twitterMy employer can "steal" my journal articles all they want.May 09 20:17
balzacpeople are wrong to think of copyright as essential for artists and content creatorsMay 09 20:17
Carl_Rover2k12@schestowitz: all the while they squash those who are ignorant of their rightsMay 09 20:17
twitterwhat are they going to do, sell them on the street corner?May 09 20:17
Carl_Rover2k12balzac: its not essenstial as much as an option for one to persue for legal actionMay 09 20:18
balzaccheck out my friend karl fogel's website www.questioncopyright.orgMay 09 20:18
twitterthat would be nifty, but I doubt they will make much more than noise and my reputation.May 09 20:18
schestowitzbalzac: maybe in the old worldMay 09 20:18
schestowitzNow we have the InetrnetMay 09 20:18
schestowitzGood luck to Murdoch CHANGING for people to read articlesMay 09 20:18
schestowitzThey just go to Google NewsMay 09 20:18
bgrt4yay... internetz!!!May 09 20:18
schestowitzAnd then find sources that happily give it awayMay 09 20:18
schestowitzWith adverts or whateverMay 09 20:19
schestowitzThis just shows that a lot gets changedMay 09 20:19
balzacI'd don't usually like the idea of beating up an old man, but I'd like to push Rupert Murdoch down and take his trophy wifeMay 09 20:19
twitterRover, what legal actions do you have in mind.May 09 20:19
twitter?May 09 20:19
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: lawsuite, or summons to take down workMay 09 20:20
schestowitzbalzac: don't get all beat up. He can be your vassalMay 09 20:20
twitterbalzac, why bother to push Murdoch over?  I'm sure you could just charm his wife away..May 09 20:20
schestowitzThen serve the trophyMay 09 20:20
twitterWhat do you want to take down?May 09 20:20
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: and a lawsuite doesn't have to be centered around money, it could also be the verdict of persuing a certain action. Its just courts find it easier to dole out cashMay 09 20:20
twitterDo you think Fox News would do more than laugh at your take down?May 09 20:20
twitterThey have laughed at others.May 09 20:21
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: they can laugh but if they realise they did perpetrate a wrong and a judge agrees their legal team has to be summoned regardlessMay 09 20:21
twitterThey will waste your life savings and life time fighting it.May 09 20:21
twitterand they will win.May 09 20:21
balzacI would send him into exileMay 09 20:21
twittercopyright does not server you.May 09 20:21
schestowitzcopyright can be a censorship tooMay 09 20:22
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: really, if I recall a small company called Psion managed to settle out of court with the big Intel, Dell and ect for millions over their exploitation of their trademark on the word "Netbook"May 09 20:22
schestowitzThe big media uses it as as suchMay 09 20:22
schestowitzCarl_Rover2k12: there are exceptionsMay 09 20:23
schestowitzI didn't even know they settledMay 09 20:23
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Apple is not fighting Palm for their use of multi-touch because Palm already has patents of prior use which are nessisary for smartphonesMay 09 20:23
twitterI don't think you Psion's resources, CarlMay 09 20:23
*mib_x2emvj has quit (" ajax IRC Client")May 09 20:24
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: then I have the right to public counsel, or dare I say even testify myself until I can raise enough funds from sympathetic people or a lawyer looking to earn extra from the verdictMay 09 20:24
MinceRthat didn't stop crApple from using FUD, thoughMay 09 20:24
Carl_Rover2k12MinceR: but all it was, FUDMay 09 20:24
twitterand software patents are business methodsMay 09 20:24
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: copyrights are only as effective pertaining to how much they are used or notoriety there is sadly.May 09 20:25
twitterCarl, you don't have a right to public counsel in a copyright case.  It's a civil matter.May 09 20:25
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: imo the system does need to be reformed quite a bit and offer more choice for people to drop out and opt to file their works into a sort of public domain state, but not obolishedMay 09 20:25
twitterYou seem to be confusing facets of trademark, copyright and criminal law.May 09 20:26
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: actually, infants or those underage do. But that is aside from the pointMay 09 20:26
twitterI'm not sure what you are talking about, but it's not a very good case for the pubic benefits of copyright.May 09 20:27
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: Copyright is still a more serious matter then any civil suite because the Constitution and current legal guidelines for IPs state as suchMay 09 20:27
twitter?May 09 20:27
twitterbblMay 09 20:28
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: 09 20:28
*tacone ( has joined #boycottnovellMay 09 20:29
taconeschestowitz: erase contents and latest stories TOCs from the home pageMay 09 20:31
taconethey lik to anchors it's confusing.May 09 20:31
schestowitztacone: where t0o put them?May 09 20:36
schestowitzA lot of people don't read it as 'front page'May 09 20:36
schestowitzThey use RSSMay 09 20:36
taconenot the  sections themselvesMay 09 20:37
schestowitzFront page is WikiMay 09 20:37
taconethe table of contents.May 09 20:37
taconethey link to an anchor on the same pageMay 09 20:37
taconeredundant and confusing.May 09 20:37
taconethe blue background parts.May 09 20:37
trmancoYahoo is promoting IE 8 in user generated emailMay 09 20:37
trmancoforced ad signatureMay 09 20:37
taconetrmanco: that's called advertising.May 09 20:38
schestowitzstillMay 09 20:38
taconeuh, "ad", sorry.May 09 20:38
taconeI somewhat feel ie8 out of the browsers war. just catching up.May 09 20:39
taconeuntil they're catching up, they can't harm. and they will catch up until developer community doesn't trust ie again. not anytime soon.May 09 20:39
taconeright now, Chromium is leading, and the others are just sucking.May 09 20:40
balzacRoy, what's up with the wiki being your landing page for BN?May 09 20:40
trmancoit doesn't really follow standardsMay 09 20:40
balzacit makes it look like your site hasn't got much going onMay 09 20:41
taconetrmanco: that's the point.May 09 20:41
balzacwikis are academic and staleMay 09 20:41
trmancosites made for all firefox show well inf safari and opera, but not in IE 8May 09 20:41
trmancothey still lack standardsMay 09 20:41
balzacMicrosoft deliberately boycotts standardsMay 09 20:41
taconefirefox has been loved by webdevs. so even if the boss says IE it's the priority, it's more likely for a site to work on firefox. not only easier, but more likelyMay 09 20:42
taconewebdevs use firefox, they may forgot to test on IE also. the opposite it's unlikely.May 09 20:42
balzacas far as Microsoft is concerned, the W3C or ISO is either an impediment or a toolMay 09 20:42
taconebalzac: they can't play that game anymore on the webMay 09 20:42
balzacthe more developers forget IE, the betterMay 09 20:42
taconethey do, but only on svg. and desperately try to catch up on acid and stuff.May 09 20:43
balzactacone: thank goodnessMay 09 20:43
taconei'm a webdev.May 09 20:43
balzacsoon come the day when microsoft is laughed atMay 09 20:43
schestowitzBalrog: the wiki is for new visitorsMay 09 20:44
taconei should also say, half of the fortune of firefox among webdevs, thus among normal peopleMay 09 20:44
taconeis due to webdeveloper extension and firebug.May 09 20:44
taconesafari, chromium, and ie attempts to develop such extensions are laughable and ridicule.May 09 20:44
trmancowowMay 09 20:45
taconenoone will really test their site on those browser until the browser developers give tools.May 09 20:45
trmancognote has been working for almost 12 hours and it only hog 6.1MB of ramMay 09 20:45
taconefirebug especially is incredible.May 09 20:45
trmancoI don't remember opening more then 1 note thoughMay 09 20:45
taconegnote has to create a dev teamMay 09 20:46
taconeotherwise is dead.May 09 20:46
trmancojust let it spread  into the main distrosMay 09 20:46
taconewhich distros ?!May 09 20:46
trmancofedora for exampleMay 09 20:46
taconeit doesn't even have plugins.May 09 20:46
trmancoand ubuntu, debianMay 09 20:46
taconefedora is the only one likely to use it.May 09 20:46
trmancotacone, yes it doesMay 09 20:46
taconeubuntu won't use it unless debian does.May 09 20:47
taconedebian is unlilkely to use it until gnome does.May 09 20:47
trmancowho says?May 09 20:47
taconeso hope gnome does.May 09 20:47
trmanco 09 20:47
trmancognote has already some ubuntu devs aroung itMay 09 20:47
taconetrmanco: that's not from ubuntu.May 09 20:47
trmancoaround*May 09 20:47
taconewhich devs ?May 09 20:47
trmanco2May 09 20:48
taconevadi is not a ubuntu devMay 09 20:48
trmancohe isn't?May 09 20:48
taconeno.May 09 20:48
schestowitzpersonal stories in LT again:  Editor's Note: Who Will Remember You? < >May 09 20:48
taconeand some ubuntu devs are mono fans.May 09 20:48
trmancoMost active in UbuntuMay 09 20:48
taconesure, but not in ubuntu development.May 09 20:49
taconeindependent dev.May 09 20:49
taconetrmanco: my take is gnome is the hope.May 09 20:49
taconeconvince gnome, get everyone.May 09 20:49
trmancow00t -> 09 20:49
taconedebian is also more likelyMay 09 20:50
trmancoRegisteredMay 09 20:50
trmanco2009-04-13 byMay 09 20:50
taconetrmanco: ?May 09 20:50
trmanco 09 20:50
trmanco:|May 09 20:50
taconephp ?May 09 20:50
*trmanco checks the codeMay 09 20:51
trmancotacone, yeah, but see the name similaritiesMay 09 20:51
taconeohMay 09 20:51
trmancoand the datesMay 09 20:51
trmancoinitial commit with the date the project surl was registeredMay 09 20:51
taconekill mr. Radevic and you're done.May 09 20:51
trmancono wayMay 09 20:52
trmancohe is doing it in python :-PMay 09 20:52
trmancoand btw, he packages gnote for me and othersMay 09 20:52
schestowitzHaha. Why Windows 7 is Microsoft’s next Zune < >May 09 20:53
DaemonFCI wonder if I could get away with running games in WinFLP in a virtualbox sessionMay 09 20:53
Carl_Rover2k12I got to getting going, tell twitter that I apologize for leaving and would be willing to throw down again some time if that user gets backMay 09 20:53
DaemonFCprobably old onesMay 09 20:53
*Carl_Rover2k12 has quit ()May 09 20:54
trmancowtf is winflp?May 09 20:55
trmancowindows flipped?May 09 20:56
DaemonFCWindows Fundamentals for Legacy PCsMay 09 20:56
DaemonFCit's a copy of XP that has been trimmed down to run on old computersMay 09 20:56
trmancoah okMay 09 20:56
DaemonFCI mean too old for XPMay 09 20:56
trmancohow old can that be?May 09 20:56
DaemonFCit's pretty fast actuallyMay 09 20:56
trmancoP1?May 09 20:56
trmanco:-pMay 09 20:56
DaemonFCsystems that shipped with Windows 95/98May 09 20:56
trmancoah... not badMay 09 20:57
DaemonFCI've looked it over, and it's pretty much XP with all the important stuffMay 09 21:00
DaemonFCbut yet half the size I can get XP down to with nLiteMay 09 21:00
DaemonFCso clearly there's something nLite can't remove that Microsoft didMay 09 21:00
tacone 09 21:00
DaemonFCby default, WinFLP doesn't have any .Net runtimeMay 09 21:01
DaemonFCnot even 1.1May 09 21:01
trmancoahMay 09 21:01
trmancosee, thats bloat, and even MS knows itMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCbut that can't account for that much of a space drainMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCcause I even gutted .Net from my nlited XPMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCthe furthest down I could get nLite XP was 2.2 gigs installedMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCWinFLP is 611 megs to 995 megsMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCdepending on the components you wantMay 09 21:02
DaemonFCInternet Explorer, DirectX, and Media Player are optional, Help and Support Center is optional, even Task Manager and the command line tools are optionalMay 09 21:03
DaemonFCof course if you remove local administrative tools and then need to kill something from the task manager, you're fuckedMay 09 21:04
DaemonFC:)May 09 21:04
DaemonFCand removing Windows Media Player also guts out DirectXMay 09 21:04
DaemonFCyou can run the DirectX 9 redist and it will install, but it skips various DirectX 8 components that XP should have shipped withMay 09 21:04
DaemonFCso it's still damagedMay 09 21:04
DaemonFCso basically if you remove IE, or Media Player then Microsoft will also rip out other unrelated things you may have neededMay 09 21:05
DaemonFCit also have no Visual Basic runtime, no MS Paint, no Disk CleanupMay 09 21:06
DaemonFCbut Defrag is still thereMay 09 21:06
schestowitzSo does it run Firefox?May 09 21:06
DaemonFCyes, it runs prety much anything a full copy of XP canMay 09 21:07
schestowitzMy old win98 laptop hardly movd the thingMay 09 21:07
schestowitzFirefox 1.0 IIRCMay 09 21:07
DaemonFC98 does not have required functionality to run anything past Firefox 2.0.19May 09 21:07
DaemonFCeven if you install Unicode, which MS has a redist forMay 09 21:08
DaemonFCit still doesn't support CairoMay 09 21:08
DaemonFCso that basically means it can't run newer copies of VLC, Firefox, etc.May 09 21:08
schestowitzWhy not a light distro?May 09 21:10
schestowitzBTW, I'll hit IBM for its stance on software patents a lot more from now on (done this before many times but gently). Not ODF. That would be counter-productive because we need a format that won't attack FOSS.May 09 21:10
DaemonFCif you compile Firefox 3 without SVG support, Windows 98 can run itMay 09 21:11
DaemonFC:)May 09 21:11
schestowitzNo updatsMay 09 21:12
schestowitzBut the same goes for win98May 09 21:13
DaemonFCWindows 98 was the second longest lives version of WindowsMay 09 21:14
DaemonFCXP will be overtaking that this yearMay 09 21:14
DaemonFC:DMay 09 21:14
schestowitzJust let Windows dieMay 09 21:17
schestowitzDon't help itMay 09 21:17
schestowitzFree software is about about  letting a single company make the rules on a platform. This not only dis-empowers users, but it also leads to DRM-ed shops like Android (with bans and stuff), discrimination against rival browsers, Tivoisation that is hostile to modifications, etc. Choice is good. Think cars.May 09 21:17
DaemonFCprobably not the right analogyMay 09 21:17
DaemonFC:)May 09 21:17
MinceRi think a "not" is missing thereMay 09 21:17
MinceRalso, there's an extra "about" :>May 09 21:18
taconeUbuntu does 1/3 of google queries windows does in italy.May 09 21:18
taconethat means 25% approx share.May 09 21:18
DaemonFCWell, Linux is really a problem for Microsoft in third world countriesMay 09 21:19
schestowitzhmmmmmm... are they covering proprietary linux here again? 09 21:19
DaemonFCthat's why they're dumping free Windows thereMay 09 21:19
DaemonFCor turning a blind eye to illegal copiesMay 09 21:20
taconelol, italy is not yet a 3rd world country. but we're working on that.May 09 21:20
DaemonFCno, I meant like Mexico and ChinaMay 09 21:20
DaemonFCRussia is about there tooMay 09 21:20
taconewell, that share in italy has to be scaring to them.May 09 21:20
DaemonFCthe average Russian lives on the equivalent of about $11,000 USD per yearMay 09 21:20
DaemonFCthat's below our poverty guidelinesMay 09 21:20
taconeas italy is usually slower to catch up with trends (like firefox)May 09 21:20
DaemonFCby quite a bitMay 09 21:20
taconethat's why italian newspaper advertise windows 7 to linux usersMay 09 21:21
schestowitzDaemonFC: expenses there are lower tooMay 09 21:21
taconenewspaperSMay 09 21:21
schestowitzYou can't compare wages like thatMay 09 21:21
DaemonFCyes you canMay 09 21:21
DaemonFClook at MexicoMay 09 21:21
DaemonFCif I won the lottery it would probably last me ten times longer thereMay 09 21:21
DaemonFCdoesn't mean I would go thereMay 09 21:22
*DaemonFC has been there, it was not a place he'll return willinglyMay 09 21:22
DaemonFClike, they have Walmart there, but the average Mexican is so poor, that a bottle of decent liquor costs more than a weeks payMay 09 21:23
DaemonFCso they just have cards in the liquor aisleMay 09 21:23
DaemonFCwith pictures of the bottleMay 09 21:23
schestowitzLinux Defenders call for prior art to counter MS patents < >May 09 21:23
DaemonFCand the liquor is locked up in a security roomMay 09 21:23
DaemonFCthink 115 degrees in the shadeMay 09 21:24
DaemonFCthe sweat evaporates to fast, you're sweating and dryMay 09 21:24
DaemonFCso you have to drink lots of water even if you aren't sweatingMay 09 21:24
DaemonFCcause you are and you just don't realize itMay 09 21:24
DaemonFCthen there are police checkpointsMay 09 21:25
DaemonFCdrug gangs pay the Mexican police to set up check pointsMay 09 21:25
DaemonFCto keep other gangs smugglers outMay 09 21:25
DaemonFC:)May 09 21:25
schestowitzDave Krappos as Next PTO Director? < > IBM. What is this krap?May 09 21:25
_Hicham_u seem to be an old smuggler :)May 09 21:25
DaemonFCso they really don't care what you have in your car as long as it's not a rival gangs drugsMay 09 21:25
DaemonFCnah, the first thing the army does when they take over a town is disarm the police so they don't get shot in the backMay 09 21:26
DaemonFC:)May 09 21:26
*DavidGerard (n=Diva_@wikimedia/DavidGerard) has joined #boycottnovellMay 09 21:33
DavidGerardgood morning cruel worldMay 09 21:34
DavidGerardhey roy, that battery recall checking functionMay 09 21:34
DavidGerardit's in the bitsMay 09 21:34
DavidGerardand is used by gnome power managerMay 09 21:34
DavidGerardit was started three years ago: 09 21:34
DavidGerardso it's not just a reason to get ubuntu, but any gnome distroMay 09 21:35
DavidGerarddunno if kde does the same, but it's fd.o (hal) so it couldMay 09 21:35
DavidGerardif only windows and macos x were that helpfulMay 09 21:35
DavidGerard(apple were v good with the recall battery we had, and it was nice to replace a nearly clapped-out battery with a completely new one :-D )May 09 21:36
schestowitzHeyMay 09 21:40
schestowitzSorry, I missed you coming inMay 09 21:40
schestowitzGot distracted by patent junkMay 09 21:40
DavidGerard:-)May 09 21:40
DavidGerardi'm just remarkably boredMay 09 21:40
DavidGerardi never go on irc otherwiseMay 09 21:40
schestowitzDavidGerard: yes, Ubuntu gets credit for many GNOME thingsMay 09 21:40
schestowitzWow! Look. Ubuntu themesMay 09 21:40
DavidGerardwell, in this case it was just that the guy discovered it on ubuntuMay 09 21:40
schestowitzMamma mia. Ubuntu can detect my monitorMay 09 21:40
DavidGerardi posted to his blog post linking the origin blog postMay 09 21:41
DavidGerardand i've added the original link to my ljMay 09 21:41
schestowitzThe Ubuntu remote desktop thingie... (SSH / BSD)May 09 21:41
DavidGerardyou should still use both links in your daily links list ;-) it's a GREAT piece of free software advocacyMay 09 21:41
schestowitzDavidGerard: I wish I was ever boredMay 09 21:41
DavidGerardhahMay 09 21:41
schestowitzI only get bored while on vacationsMay 09 21:41
DavidGerardwell, more exhaustionMay 09 21:42
schestowitzNo Internet !!11May 09 21:42
DavidGerardthe toddler's been particularly active todayMay 09 21:42
schestowitzI always have things I want to read and have no time toMay 09 21:42
DavidGerardi just got to entertain her for an hour while her mother was fixing a broken tibookMay 09 21:42
schestowitzWhich "both links"?May 09 21:42
DavidGerardthe guy who went "whoa, ubuntu" and the original post by the guy writing the featureMay 09 21:43
DavidGerardi wonder if kde uses the dataMay 09 21:43
schestowitzDavidGerard: but it's already in the linksMay 09 21:43
schestowitzIsn't this where you found it?May 09 21:43
DavidGerardis it?May 09 21:43
schestowitzYesMay 09 21:43
DavidGerardno, i saw it in your twitter feed :-)May 09 21:43
schestowitzLast night'sMay 09 21:43
DavidGerardah ok :-)May 09 21:43
schestowitzI miss very little :-)May 09 21:43
*DavidGerard looks againMay 09 21:43
schestowitzI expanded to MAFIAA stuff too as you can prolly tellMay 09 21:44
schestowitzNext months I'll do moreMay 09 21:44
DavidGerardyesMay 09 21:44
schestowitzShift it up a gearMay 09 21:44
schestowitzI saw your comments in GL yesterdayMay 09 21:44
DavidGerardoh, did you see this one? 09 21:44
schestowitzRunning "out of breath"May 09 21:44
schestowitz"off air"May 09 21:44
schestowitzIt wasn't a banwidth issue but a server load issueMay 09 21:44
schestowitzWe have 500gb.month quotaMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardnew trolling lawyersMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardin the ukMay 09 21:45
schestowitzIs this the x10 penalty?May 09 21:45
DavidGerardchasing filesharers with threats for a few hundred quidMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardand backing down as soon as they are challengedMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardbasically, extorting money with menaces, but legallyMay 09 21:45
schestowitzI think I got it covered alreadyMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardcoolMay 09 21:45
schestowitzYes, a fool born every minuteMay 09 21:45
schestowitzOr scared poor kidsMay 09 21:45
DavidGerardthat post is a great piece of research from torrentfreakMay 09 21:45
schestowitzOr cancer pateientsMay 09 21:46
schestowitzLet me get refsMay 09 21:46
DavidGerardi must write it up for rocknerdMay 09 21:46
DavidGerard - my embittered rock journalist blogMay 09 21:46
schestowitzThe RIAA vs. 19 Year Old Cancer Patient 09 21:46
schestowitzRIAA Sued For Racketeering Yet Again 09 21:46
DavidGerardback before i switched to IT, which is far more nice and friendlyMay 09 21:46
DavidGerardreally, the record companies are much nastier than microsoft has ever been.May 09 21:46
DavidGerardthey are evil fucks through and through.May 09 21:46
schestowitzI learned today about wikileaks lawyers being assassinatedMay 09 21:47
DavidGerardmicrosoft occasionally writes good software.May 09 21:47
schestowitzMade me think of the Norway-based Wikipedian who killed his mom the other weekMay 09 21:47
DavidGerardyeahMay 09 21:47
schestowitzBut here you have the good guys being killedMay 09 21:47
schestowitzDavidGerard: nopeMay 09 21:47
schestowitzMS BUYS good softwareMay 09 21:47
schestowitzDon't forget where all the sw comes fromMay 09 21:47
DavidGerardhahMay 09 21:47
schestowitz"Usually Microsoft doesn't develop products, we buy products. It's not a bad product, but bits and pieces are missing.",1000000189,39286351,00.htm Arno Edelmann, MicrosoftMay 09 21:48
DavidGerardah yeah.May 09 21:48
schestowitzThey bought the wrong productMay 09 21:48
schestowitzThey didn't havbe problems developingMay 09 21:48
*DavidGerard wonders what rock they found win32 underMay 09 21:48
schestowitzThe people with the papers bought the wrong thingMay 09 21:48
schestowitzMicrosoft: we buy so that you can buy (directly from us)May 09 21:48
schestowitzIE tooMay 09 21:48
schestowitzParts of OficeMay 09 21:49
DavidGerardyeahMay 09 21:49
schestowitz*Orifice[sic]May 09 21:49
schestowitzEven FrontpageMay 09 21:49
DavidGerardvisioMay 09 21:49
DavidGerardpowerpointMay 09 21:49
schestowitzEnsembleMay 09 21:49
schestowitzFlight SimMay 09 21:49
schestowitzMassiveMay 09 21:49
schestowitzAll sackedMay 09 21:49
schestowitzWait until they sack Danger folks tooMay 09 21:49
schestowitzMarkS will get some competition from BigG, not just BIllG: Dell Planning Android Based Netbooks < >May 09 21:52
schestowitzRepackaging is best course of action for Oracle-Sun < > They so Sun was "killed" by LinuxMay 09 21:53
schestowitzJust in: Linux netbooks expected to reach 50% market share < 09 21:55
DavidGerardthat's a linpus wishful thinking releaseMay 09 21:57
schestowitzRealNetworks Chooses GNU/Linux for Its Hardware: RealNetworks lets Facet glitter, briefly < >May 09 21:57
DavidGerardlinpus would have to not suck firstMay 09 21:57
DavidGerardand take "pus" out of its nameMay 09 21:57
DavidGerard"New netbook os: LinCancer!"May 09 21:57
schestowitzI thought they renamed it LinplusMay 09 21:57
DavidGerarda triumph of marketingMay 09 21:57
schestowitzLinpus is OK nameMay 09 21:57
schestowitzIn most countriesMay 09 21:58
schestowitzSome others like people's names sound bad here and thereMay 09 21:58
schestowitzAnd maybe their target market ain't English-speaking countriesMay 09 21:58
schestowitzLike koreaMay 09 21:58
schestowitzE Ink Comes with Linux Toolkit < >May 09 21:59
DavidGerardyeahMay 09 22:01
DavidGerardi want a cheap chinese gadget that has a kindle-like screen and runs linux and plays every unlocked format goingMay 09 22:01
DavidGerardthe pdf is a technology before its timeMay 09 22:01
DavidGerardit was waiting for ebook readers with einkMay 09 22:01
DavidGerardman, that dev kit. i want one in a nice plastic shell.May 09 22:03
schestowitzYou can open PDFs in PDAsMay 09 22:03
DavidGerardi want a web browser running on eink.May 09 22:03
DavidGerardi knowMay 09 22:03
schestowitzA bit small, but..May 09 22:03
DavidGerardtoo small, that's the problemMay 09 22:03
schestowitzOr get wired upMay 09 22:03
schestowitzPut that text right in your eyeMay 09 22:04
schestowitzHow long before we inject input to our view of vision?May 09 22:04
schestowitzHead-mounted masks are heavyMay 09 22:04
schestowitzThink how much space and energy would be savedMay 09 22:05
DavidGerardok, my girlfriend has just seen taht eink dev kitMay 09 22:05
schestowitzJust use as much brightness as needed to read the darn thingMay 09 22:05
DavidGerardshe wants one so she can make a steampunk case for itMay 09 22:05
*_Hicham_ has quit (Connection timed out)May 09 22:05
DavidGerardof course the $3K is a minor obstacleMay 09 22:06
schestowitzHmmm.. weird entry: 09 22:08
schestowitzOpenMoko was 10 times cheaperMay 09 22:08
schestowitztessier has oneMay 09 22:08
DavidGerardi'm surprised they just don't release a pile of prototypesMay 09 22:09
DavidGerardso many people want one even knowing how broken they areMay 09 22:10
DavidGerardeveryone wants a gnuphone. FOR REAL.May 09 22:10
DavidGerardi was JOKING.May 09 22:10
DavidGerard(openmoko)May 09 22:10
DavidGerardthen someone posted the screenshot of gentoo booting on an openmoko. WHAT.May 09 22:10
taconedebian also.May 09 22:11
taconeand ubuntu on a android g1, though i didn't really understand if that was vlc or what.May 09 22:11
DavidGerardthat musta been quite a trickMay 09 22:12
DavidGerardand almost useless for phoneMay 09 22:12
taconewindows 7 recommends 2gb of ram to run the freaking windows xp virtual machine 09 22:14
schestowitzJobs tried booting Linux on ipHoneMay 09 22:14
schestowitzPassed outMay 09 22:14
schestowitzThey took him to a hospitalMay 09 22:14
schestowitzHe trouched GPLMay 09 22:14
taconeiphone devs asked to use linux instead of bsdMay 09 22:14
schestowitzyesMay 09 22:14
taconeas much stuff was already doneMay 09 22:15
schestowitzJobs growledMay 09 22:15
DavidGerardyeahMay 09 22:15
taconehe replied he didn't want to use other people stuff.May 09 22:15
DavidGerardapple is a study in hippie control addictionMay 09 22:15
tacone(or gpl ?)May 09 22:15
schestowitzHeheMay 09 22:15
schestowitzHow ironicMay 09 22:15
DavidGerardand os x is a fully featured unixMay 09 22:15
schestowitzThe same guy who stole from XeroxMay 09 22:15
taconemac people still say you can compile programs just like in linuxMay 09 22:15
DavidGerardthat's approaching urban mythMay 09 22:15
taconefreaks.May 09 22:15
DavidGerardxerox were paid handsomely for apple implementing their ideas usablyMay 09 22:15
taconetry compile svn. or bzr.May 09 22:15
DavidGerardprobably one of the more profitable things to come from parc, in factMay 09 22:16
schestowitzparcMay 09 22:16
DavidGerardtacone: darwin is a good bsd for most purposesMay 09 22:16
schestowitzI love the nameMay 09 22:16
schestowitzSounds like puck or prickMay 09 22:16
MinceRi'm sure it's greatMay 09 22:16
DavidGerardas a friend of mine put it in 10.1 days: "wow, INN builds out the box on a desklamp!" (an imac g4)May 09 22:16
schestowitzLinux >> BSD :-pMay 09 22:16
DavidGerardoh no it isn't.May 09 22:16
MinceRthe kernel, for example, combines the drawbacks of a microkernel with the drawbacks of a monolithic kernel.May 09 22:16
schestowitzLinux <> BSD + massive brainwash :-pMay 09 22:17
DavidGerardfreebsd is SO much nicer to administer at a kernel level than linuxMay 09 22:17
DavidGerardthe GNU userland is way betterMay 09 22:17
taconei've an interview to a macosx user coming out soon. nothing new, but maybe useful to put things into perspective.May 09 22:17
MinceRdoes someone even do administration on the kernel level? :>May 09 22:17
schestowitzIf you build Apache into itMay 09 22:18
schestowitzLots of work but possibleMay 09 22:18
schestowitzApachuxMay 09 22:18
schestowitz404s give you kernel oopsMay 09 22:19
schestowitzWhy is this new video tagged Novell? 09 22:19
taconeit's not.May 09 22:20
DavidGerardbut anything kernely is just pain on linuxMay 09 22:20
schestowitzPretty good for a bank of kidsMay 09 22:20
DavidGerardlinux is written by overcaffienated monkeys on crackMay 09 22:20
DavidGerardbsd is written by computer scientistsMay 09 22:20
schestowitz<DavidGerard> but anything kernely is just pain on linuxMay 09 22:20
schestowitzBut it is a kernelMay 09 22:20
DavidGerardwho were, admittedly, overcaffeinated monkeys on crack when they wrote bsdMay 09 22:20
schestowitzIt's like saying, everything mushroomy is wrong with mushroomsMay 09 22:20
DavidGerardbut they're better now!May 09 22:20
taconeschestowitz: +1May 09 22:21
DavidGerardno, i mean specifically kernel level stuff as opposed to user level stuffMay 09 22:21
DavidGerardGNU is good, apt/deb is fantastic, linux is horribleMay 09 22:21
schestowitzNaaa...May 09 22:21
DavidGerardits plus points are (1) it works. (2) it keeps working.May 09 22:21
schestowitzYou contradict yourselfMay 09 22:21
taconedeb is fantastic for the end userMay 09 22:21
taconepackaging is awfulMay 09 22:21
schestowitzA few weeks ago in BN comments you said the oppositeMay 09 22:21
DavidGerardi am speaking from personal opinion therefore am completely 100% correctMay 09 22:22
DavidGerardno i didn't!May 09 22:22
taconein windows you get an installer in ten clicks.May 09 22:22
DavidGerardi have maintained this position consistently since 2002May 09 22:22
schestowitzYou said Linux should be admired for it deals with HW better than BSD for exampelMay 09 22:22
DavidGerardyes, it edoesMay 09 22:22
DavidGerarddoesMay 09 22:22
DavidGerardthat's why this laptop is running ubuntuMay 09 22:22
taconewe need a wizard for most common packaging.May 09 22:22
taconemany people tried. even vadi is working on that.May 09 22:22
tacone(vadi = packager for gnote)May 09 22:22
DavidGerard(mind you, it's kernel panicking all the time. i'm tempted to debian squeeze it. if debian supports iwl3945 with its binary blob firmware workably.)May 09 22:23
DavidGerardpakcaging?May 09 22:23
DavidGerardyou mean, beyond synaptic?May 09 22:23
schestowitzMicrosoft layoffs number 1,200 in Puget Sound 09 22:23
DavidGerard(which is one of the finest bits of software ever to throw at users)May 09 22:23
taconei mean: creating a package.May 09 22:23
DavidGerardi'm not clear on what you meanMay 09 22:23
taconedeveloper don't want to mess with packaging.May 09 22:23
schestowitzAndredrle James took over the MS blog at the P-IMay 09 22:23
DavidGerardhmMay 09 22:23
taconesay I'm good at pythonMay 09 22:24
taconei'd like to ship my app on ubuntu without having to learn too much about debs.May 09 22:24
taconedo windows developers have to develop an installer ?May 09 22:24
taconethey just use the wizard of visual studio in most cases.May 09 22:25
DavidGerardhehMay 09 22:25
schestowitzIE on pace to drop below 50% share by 2011 < > It's already under 15% in one site I have.May 09 22:25
DavidGerardi dunno if becoming a debian developer (= packager) is any less bureaucratic than it was 10 years ago, but i doubt itMay 09 22:25
taconei'm serious on this one. i understand that promoting ignorance is not good, but easy alternatives for the most common paths is good.May 09 22:25
taconebureaucracy is good. but the average developer just wants a fast way to get a deb working.May 09 22:26
DavidGerardif you make a decently written piece of software that anyone gives a hoot about then someone will package it for the distros. you then just need to participate in their bugs etc.May 09 22:26
*schestowitz actually quite enjoys this Novell-tagged performance that showed up in RSS: 09 22:26
DavidGerardpackagers feel all happy and loved when the dev cares what they doMay 09 22:27
schestowitzSlated was a Fedora packagerMay 09 22:28
schestowitzNow on an Internet break on the face of it....May 09 22:28
*DavidGerard wonders what will happen with eglibcMay 09 22:28
taconehappens that the mantainer is perceived as an asshole.May 09 22:28
DavidGerardthe thing that v few mention is that NO-ONE ships a vanilla glibc ... *including* fedora and red hatMay 09 22:28
schestowitzWe started this IRC channel just under a year ago (one year very soon) and there were many trolls at the start. Not anymore, so mods/ops are not neededMay 09 22:29
DavidGerardand unilaterally declaring ARM unsupported was ... a good way to cause a fork. 'cos it's not going away.May 09 22:29
taconewe should also say that mantaining a core library requires thick skin.May 09 22:29
DavidGerardoh yeahMay 09 22:29
DavidGerardbut y'know, there's linus and then there's theo and then there's ulrich.May 09 22:30
taconei mean, you can't accept random patches.May 09 22:30
DavidGerardlinus and theo are very bloody demanding, but do good work and they'll be pleased.May 09 22:30
taconea few bugs were pointed out in the public, showing the author as an assholeMay 09 22:30
DavidGerardlike snape in harry potter.May 09 22:30
taconebut I wonder how the other bugs were.May 09 22:30
DavidGerardtacone: yeah. but unilaterally declaring ARM unsupported, no matter what GNU (the supposed sponsors) or Red Hat say?May 09 22:31
DavidGerardthat's "ok, thanks, i guess we have to fork now"May 09 22:31
taconeeven if Ulrich is an asshole, why then redhat keeps him employed ?May 09 22:31
DavidGerardbecause he's very good indeedMay 09 22:31
DavidGerardbutMay 09 22:31
DavidGerardy'knowMay 09 22:31
taconeperhaps he has much more clue of other ones.May 09 22:31
taconei have some respect of debian packagersMay 09 22:32
DavidGerardit'd be interesting to hear from the people who maintain the patch set between vanilla glibc and the one that ships with red hat and fedora.May 09 22:32
DavidGerarddrepper is fantastically cluefulMay 09 22:32
taconebut packager = not always a good developerMay 09 22:32
DavidGerardhis paper on how to manage memory for programmers is ridiculously good.May 09 22:32
taconethat's especcialy true for Ubuntu motusMay 09 22:32
DavidGerardeveryone should read it.May 09 22:32
DavidGerardi'm not a programmer at all, i'm a sysadmin, and i got a lot out of it.May 09 22:33
taconemany just do bash scripting on lucky daysMay 09 22:33
DavidGerardhis level of technical clue is truly stratospheric.May 09 22:33
DavidGerardhowever, look at linus or theo. also very clueful technically. but they know their job is management.May 09 22:33
taconelet's see what happenMay 09 22:33
DavidGerardtheo is famously abrasive, but he gets results and quite clearly knows his shit.May 09 22:34
taconei hope red hat and debian can find a way to unify the efforts.May 09 22:34
DavidGerardwellMay 09 22:34
DavidGerardif eglibc gather everyone's patch set in one placeMay 09 22:34
DavidGerardthat's basically what egcs didMay 09 22:34
taconei'd like a public forum where distros leader talk publiclyMay 09 22:34
DavidGerard(i wrote a pile of the early stuff in wikipedia on the egcs fork and unfork. it was ... quite a bit of work trying to write up the screaming frustrations in a neutral manner.)May 09 22:35
taconei already called for it, but no one listened (of course)May 09 22:35
DavidGerardhehMay 09 22:35
DavidGerarddebian and gentoo packagers frequently deal with each other#May 09 22:35
taconei want redhat leader, shuttlework and icaza in one placeMay 09 22:35
DavidGerardeven tho the distros are COMPLETELY different in conceptMay 09 22:35
schestowitztacone: agreed about packagers. Some are not even developers at all.May 09 22:35
schestowitzDaemonFC and oiaohm are not developers either, I thinkMay 09 22:36
schestowitzYet they know Linux fantastically wellMay 09 22:36
taconediversity is good.May 09 22:36
taconedecentralization is good.May 09 22:36
taconebut they need to talk.May 09 22:36
*DaemonFC smacks schestowitz with Virtual Windows Me ModeMay 09 22:36
DaemonFC:)May 09 22:36
schestowitzDevelopers thenMay 09 22:37
schestowitzSorry, just oiaohm thenMay 09 22:37
*tacone smacks schestowitz with a Win virus running on a Windows ME virtual machine hosted by Virtual PC (take this !)May 09 22:37
schestowitzIt won't runMay 09 22:37
schestowitzNo binary compatibilityMay 09 22:37
schestowitzNo Mono, eitherMay 09 22:37
*DavidGerard thinks of the xkcd with the win32 virus terrariumMay 09 22:38
DaemonFCI bought a copy of Windows Me actuallyMay 09 22:38
DaemonFCfor $20May 09 22:38
DavidGerardlolMay 09 22:38
DavidGerardfile next to your copy of sco unixMay 09 22:38
DaemonFCMS had a $20 promo upgrade for Windows 98 users :)May 09 22:38
schestowitzBlank CDs are cheaperMay 09 22:38
schestowitzAlso more usefulMay 09 22:38
DavidGerardnahMay 09 22:39
DavidGerardyou could use it to threaten peopleMay 09 22:39
*tacone can't live without monoMay 09 22:40
taconemono is better than two.May 09 22:40
DaemonFC 09 22:40
schestowitz  Hong Kong Schools' activate 'Swine Flu Plan' for virtual learning at homeMay 09 22:42
DaemonFC 09 22:42
schestowitzWindows MehMay 09 22:43
DavidGerardSave Vista! 09 22:43
DavidGerard76 people want to save Vista so far!May 09 22:43
DavidGerardif only microsoft had pushed ME harderMay 09 22:44
taconewowMay 09 22:44
*DaemonFC will sign up to save VistaMay 09 22:44
DaemonFC:PMay 09 22:44
taconeyeah 09 22:44
taconewindows me ftw !May 09 22:44
DavidGerarddo it do itMay 09 22:45
DavidGerardand spread that link to EVERYONEMay 09 22:45
DavidGerardi want the concept of "SAVE VISTA!" to attain popularityMay 09 22:45
DavidGerardand tech press notice on a really slow dayMay 09 22:45
schestowitzNews Corp will charge for newspaper websites, says Rupert Murdoch < >May 09 22:48
schestowitzKilling the Internet is their last chanceMay 09 22:48
schestowitzOr crippling itMay 09 22:48
schestowitzHe already says soMay 09 22:48
DavidGerardEvery other newspaper site in the world throws their hats in the air, webpage at 11May 09 22:49
schestowitzSomething like the Net as we know it is about to change.May 09 22:49
schestowitzDavidGerard: : yes, except The SunMay 09 22:49
DavidGerardhahMay 09 22:49
schestowitz[because they ahve page 3]May 09 22:49
DavidGerardyeah. the wall street journal can paywall because it has a unique value proposition.May 09 22:49
taconeVISTA is a monument to everything that makes us the country we are!May 09 22:49
DavidGerardrecycled AP feeds, corporate backed op-eds, reprinted press releases and garfield cartoons ... do not have a unique value proposition.May 09 22:50
DavidGerardtacone: all the people who complain vista is slow on their computerMay 09 22:50
DavidGerardare just girly men POOFTAHS who need a REAL computer.May 09 22:50
schestowitzThe MAFIAA attacks Lessig: update on Warner Music (UPDATED) (AGAIN) < >May 09 22:50
DavidGerarda REAL computer has sixteen cores, 8 GB ram and enough fans to lift the building.May 09 22:51
DavidGerardanything less is just unworthy.May 09 22:51
taconelolMay 09 22:51
*tacone agrees on the number of fansMay 09 22:51
schestowitz8 gb of ram?May 09 22:51
schestowitzVista can do just 3.2May 09 22:51
schestowitzBUTMay 09 22:51
taconeand a dozen of mouses, please.May 09 22:51
schestowitzIt'll say 4gbMay 09 22:51
schestowitzto lieMay 09 22:51
silentivm64-bit Vista can do > 4GB, AFAIKMay 09 22:51
schestowitzI think they ficxed the lie with a patchMay 09 22:51
DavidGerardyeah, 64-bit can do lotsMay 09 22:51
schestowitzI'd have to look at refs to confirm the detailsMay 09 22:51
schestowitzsilentivm: yes, but c'mon.May 09 22:52
silentivm:PMay 09 22:52
schestowitzit's winder. No reposMay 09 22:52
taconeDavidGerard:  uh, you're the group founderMay 09 22:52
silentivmyepMay 09 22:52
silentivm:DMay 09 22:52
schestowitztacone: he's Wikipedia's founderMay 09 22:53
DavidGerardtacone: YEAH, AND?May 09 22:53
schestowitzHis and LarryMay 09 22:53
schestowitz*himMay 09 22:53
schestowitz:-)May 09 22:53
*tacone is confusedMay 09 22:53
DavidGerardi am COMPLETELY in favour of Vista continuing FOREVERMay 09 22:53
schestowitzDavidGerard: did you see the blog post about it from Sagner (??)?May 09 22:53
DavidGerardVista is necessary to the advancement of personal computing!May 09 22:53
DavidGerardschestowitz: about what?May 09 22:53
schestowitzHe wrote a blog post about 3 weeks agoMay 09 22:53
schestowitzKind of sadMay 09 22:54
schestowitzAbout Jimbo raking the chipsMay 09 22:54
DavidGerardoh thatMay 09 22:54
DavidGerardfrankly, no-one on wikipedia in 2009 could give a hoot.May 09 22:54
schestowitzDavidGerard: Vista is continuingMay 09 22:54
DavidGerardit's completely irrelevant.May 09 22:54
DaemonFC 09 22:54
DaemonFClmaoMay 09 22:54
schestowitzunder a new name though: vista7May 09 22:54
DaemonFC"Firefox is less problematic on Win9x than onMay 09 22:55
DaemonFCWinXP, so why kill it? Simply because some new guys want to save some hundredMay 09 22:55
DaemonFCbytes by removing old proven code? So why not kill Quirks mode also? Would alsoMay 09 22:55
DaemonFCmake the code more readable."May 09 22:55
DaemonFCerrrMay 09 22:55
schestowitzDavidGerard: same in wordpressMay 09 22:55
DaemonFCoopsMay 09 22:55
schestowitzMike Little  and Matt MullenwegMay 09 22:55
schestowitzMatt took all the creditMay 09 22:55
schestowitzI met Mike, who was locked out by Matt et alMay 09 22:55
DavidGerardit's rather sad that there's nothing else to say on the official citizendium blogMay 09 22:55
schestowitzBoren, Matt and others in Texas took overMay 09 22:55
schestowitzThe co-founder just sort of leftMay 09 22:55
DavidGerardthan a post that has no relevance to citizendium and very little relevance to wikipedia.May 09 22:55
DavidGerardi mean, does this advance either project writing an encylcopedia?May 09 22:56
DavidGerardpeople are already calling it "bitterzendium"May 09 22:56
DavidGerardand it actually deserves moreMay 09 22:56
DavidGerardbeing the xfree86 of encyclopedia sites is not a good position to push oneself into.#May 09 22:57
DaemonFChmmmmMay 09 22:58
DaemonFCschestowitz: I figure out how to do a Windows 2000 syyle XP installMay 09 22:58
DaemonFCwithout all the marketing spamMay 09 22:58
schestowitzEllison: "That's why Apple's iPhone is so much better than Microsoft phones."May 09 22:59
schestowitzHeheMay 09 22:59
MinceRwhat's "that"?May 09 22:59
schestowitz 09 23:00
schestowitzh/w controlMay 09 23:00
DavidGerardoh good lordMay 09 23:00
DavidGerardfirefox crashed AGAINMay 09 23:00
schestowitztoo much candyMay 09 23:00
DaemonFCmeh, Apple's iPhone is perceived to be better because they keep them scarceMay 09 23:00
schestowitzHappens here too sometimesMay 09 23:00
MinceRit's perceived to be better because people are stupid.May 09 23:00
DaemonFCif OS X Mobile was just a commodity then it wouldn't be scarce or illegall 'price fixedMay 09 23:00
DavidGerardiphone is a phone interface that doesn't make people want to smash it to bits with a hammer.May 09 23:00
DaemonFC*illegallyMay 09 23:00
schestowitz /s/scarce/crap/May 09 23:00
DavidGerardthat's enough of a feature fo rthem to charge twice the going rate.May 09 23:00
DavidGerardi have a nokia 5800.May 09 23:01
DavidGerardIT IS SO FUCKING HORRIBLE.May 09 23:01
DaemonFCpeople see 20 brands of phones that are 5 times less expensive running WindowsMay 09 23:01
DavidGerardit shits on the iphone for tick-the-list featuresMay 09 23:01
DaemonFCso iphone looks unique and valuableMay 09 23:01
DaemonFCwhen it really is notMay 09 23:01
DavidGerardDaemonFC: usabiltity is a bigger feature than all other features put together.May 09 23:01
DavidGerardapple realises this, which is why steve jobs is richer than you.May 09 23:01
DaemonFCI wouldn't call iphone useableMay 09 23:01
DavidGerardapple is evil, but they're efficient and effective evil.May 09 23:01
DavidGerardyou can wilfully not understand this, but that doesn't make it false.May 09 23:02
DaemonFCno, they convince people that they have better designMay 09 23:02
DaemonFCand they really don'tMay 09 23:02
DaemonFCI've crashed OS X more times than I really want to think aboutMay 09 23:02
DaemonFCit's as smooth as an egyptian whiskeyMay 09 23:02
DaemonFCit's got all the problems of Windows *and* it's more expensiveMay 09 23:03
DaemonFC:)May 09 23:03
DaemonFCyou can argue Microsoft vs. Apple all you want, but they're really just coke and pepsi, two versions of the same thing, and maybe one is a little sweeterMay 09 23:04
DaemonFCthere's a lot of things keeping viruses off the Mac and Mac security is not one of themMay 09 23:05
DavidGerardback in a whileMay 09 23:05
DaemonFCthe last time I looked they turn off the firewall by default in OS X 10.5May 09 23:06
DaemonFCand the damned thing even replies to pingsMay 09 23:06
DaemonFCconfirming there is a computer thereMay 09 23:06
schestowitzRegarding Sun and corruption, PJ writes: "This is in the Risks section, where ominous language is the norm."May 09 23:07
*Omar87 has quit (Connection timed out)May 09 23:08
schestowitzI'd like to try OS X for a long time at one stage, just so that I can see it Fails(C)May 09 23:08
schestowitzIt can't beat Mandriva so easilyMay 09 23:09
schestowitzI'm not qualified to bash Mac OS X based on the few times of using someone else's toy.. err.. I mean, white MacMay 09 23:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: The last time they really had a Mac that I liked, it was the motorola macMay 09 23:11
DaemonFCI think that was more because DOS/Windows were so bad in comparisonMay 09 23:12
MinceR001344 < DavidGerard> apple realises this, which is why steve jobs is richer than you.May 09 23:13
MinceRnopeMay 09 23:13
MinceRhe's richer than us because he stole some important stuff from xerox at the right time :>May 09 23:13
DaemonFCI'd still choose a Windows PC over a Mac if those were the options just for the fact that Apple is expensive and incompatible with more of the software I useMay 09 23:14
MinceRas for the usability myth, i've found a post about that recently.May 09 23:14
MinceR 09 23:14
schestowitzWe're getting shafted on Ethernet here.May 09 23:19
schestowitzSomeone down in London write..May 09 23:19
schestowitz*tesMay 09 23:19
schestowitz"As I would point out in the article I intend to write about it. Your connection is only as wide as the narrowest tube on the path between you and the server."May 09 23:19
schestowitz"Reminds me of when I was at an ISP and they advertised upgrading from 32kb to 56kb. So everyone went out and bought V.90 modems and got exactly the same speed. As bandwidth was governed by the quality of the copper wire from your house to the exchange."May 09 23:19
schestowitz"Same when they advertised DSL. Installed switches at the exchange at great expense. Only think is you had masses of dropped connections at anything over a third of usage. Too much crosstalk on the copper wires. Stuff that hadn't been upgraded since most probably the 19th century."May 09 23:19
schestowitzDaemonFC: the Macs I tried... well, had pleasant fontsMay 09 23:20
schestowitzHardly a feature that'll keep me there, but it's h/w that makes it soMay 09 23:20
schestowitzApple has good monitorsMay 09 23:20
schestowitzLike the one I used in OS 9 many timesMay 09 23:20
schestowitzI think they also use h/w to accelerate hintingMay 09 23:20
DaemonFCmehMay 09 23:21
DaemonFCa monitor is a monitor pretty muchMay 09 23:21
DaemonFCthis westinghouse one is nice enoughMay 09 23:21
schestowitzDaemonFC: depath of pixels and allMay 09 23:21
ushimitsudokiars hyping moonlight again: 09 23:21
schestowitzNot all are made equalMay 09 23:21
DaemonFCjust don't go for something no name or get a CRT and you'll be fineMay 09 23:21
schestowitzushimitsudoki: Paul?May 09 23:21
ushimitsudokiOf courseMay 09 23:21
schestowitzOh, he's a real Migel fanMay 09 23:21
schestowitz*MiguelMay 09 23:21
ushimitsudokiI suspect it's because the mono/moonlight teams provide him with news and it makes his job easy. I keep saying that Novell people are well organized that wayMay 09 23:22
ushimitsudokiAll he has to do is parrot a press release and collect a paycheckMay 09 23:22
schestowitzGuess who else hypes it now?May 09 23:22
MinceRi like my Acer monitor. all subpixels of it work correctly. :)May 09 23:22
schestowitzFound hours ago: 09 23:23
DaemonFCI want to strangle whoever did that damned clicking noiseMay 09 23:23
DaemonFCevery time you open a link in IE or change folders in Windows ExplorerMay 09 23:23
DaemonFCI have to turn that off on every XP installationMay 09 23:23
schestowitzushimitsudoki: no, he uses it tooMay 09 23:23
schestowitzHe is actually one of the few who do thisMay 09 23:24
schestowitzAnother is Jason BrooksMay 09 23:24
schestowitzSJVN too, sometimesMay 09 23:24
schestowitzI like my CRT better than the LCDMay 09 23:24
schestowitzCRTs had better resolutionMay 09 23:24
schestowitzNow it's impossible to do over 2000px on a single headMay 09 23:24
MinceRi prefer LCDsMay 09 23:24
schestowitzSO my PC at work with 2 CRTs is 4000px wideMay 09 23:25
MinceRsharper image, correct geometry, practically no flickerMay 09 23:25
schestowitzAt home it's like 1600+1920May 09 23:25
schestowitzAnd that's with wide one too, so still a wasteMay 09 23:25
DaemonFCI wonder when Chrome will be on LinuxMay 09 23:30
DaemonFCI heard a rumor stating JulyMay 09 23:30
schestowitzCuba releases free video game that teaches Unix to kids, built with Blender and GIMP 09 23:34
twitteryour PC at work sucks down between two and four hundred watts.  LCDs could do it at half that.May 09 23:34
schestowitztwitter: I know.May 09 23:34
schestowitzDisposal and production too have a costMay 09 23:34
twitterAh, this is true.  If it's already there, it's already there.  I'm getting by with a single used laptop now.May 09 23:35
MinceRi wonder if OLED will finally fix the display issues we're havingMay 09 23:35
twitterI want to strangle the people who make IE, ha ha.May 09 23:36
twitternot really.May 09 23:36
twitterbut I wish IE would go free or away.May 09 23:36
twitterPC vrs Mac.  Funny.  either way, I'd install the same software.May 09 23:37
MinceReither way i'd put gnu/linux on itMay 09 23:38
twitterrightMay 09 23:38
MinceRand either way the hw is likely to suckMay 09 23:38
twitteryou think?  I'm happy with an X30.May 09 23:38
MinceRin the latter case, pretty much guaranteedMay 09 23:38
MinceRX30 what?May 09 23:38
twitterthinkpadMay 09 23:38
twitterI've had it for about three years now.May 09 23:39
MinceRone of the rare exceptions, i guessMay 09 23:39
MinceRtoo bad lenovo are being dicks now.May 09 23:39
twitterthinkpads have been good hardware, I don't know how Lenovo has been.May 09 23:40
twitterthe X30 is basically what netbooks should be.May 09 23:41
schestowitzODF Alliance to hit Microsoft next week: "That’s the plan for next week. A harder-hitting press release with Fact Sheet. Stay tuned!" 09 23:41
twitterthat will be interestingMay 09 23:42
schestowitzYeahMay 09 23:42
schestowitzODF Alliance tried to stay friendlyMay 09 23:42
twitterto who?May 09 23:42
schestowitzWINE 1.1.21 Starts On Shader Model 4 Support 09 23:43
schestowitztwitter: everyoneMay 09 23:43
twitterthen they should still be friendlyMay 09 23:44
twitterit is not unfriendly to call a criminal out for their crimeMay 09 23:44
DavidGerardthere's also massimo doing an autocad branch of wine with his dib engineMay 09 23:45
DavidGerarddoing a proper dib engine is hardMay 09 23:45
DavidGerardbasically it'll require serious rearchitecting of wineMay 09 23:45
DavidGerardbut his experimental version is good enough to do a package ofMay 09 23:45
schestowitz"Altitude is available online for PC, Mac, and Linux for US$19.95. " Altitude Free Weekend for PC, Mac, and LinuxMay 09 23:45
schestowitz 09 23:45
DavidGerardwine is getting scarily goodMay 09 23:46
*neonfloor has quit ("Leaving")May 09 23:46
schestowitzYeah, I hearMay 09 23:46
*schestowitz does not ever -drink- use wineMay 09 23:46
DavidGerard:-)May 09 23:47
DavidGerardthere is free software that uses win32 and will never be ported to unix because it's so bound to win32May 09 23:47
DavidGerarde.g. virtualdubMay 09 23:47
DavidGerardwhich is well tested in wineMay 09 23:47
DavidGerardthere's a gpl app, BabySplat, where babies and toddlers can mash the keys and get shapes and noisesMay 09 23:48
DavidGerardworks perfectlyMay 09 23:48
DavidGerardat that stage it's just programmers choosing an obtuse interface, not a problem of software freedomMay 09 23:48
schestowitzGrandkids?May 09 23:48
schestowitz" babies and toddlers"May 09 23:48
DavidGerardmy daughter in particularMay 09 23:49
DavidGerardshe LOVES itMay 09 23:49
schestowitzWhat was that game where babies bounced off windows? Circa 1987May 09 23:49
DavidGerardi should paypal the guy $10May 09 23:49
DavidGerardoh dear, no ideaMay 09 23:49
twitterit is a problem of software freedom.  they subject themselves to a non free platform as well as support it with their mind share.May 09 23:50
*MinceR is reminded of Baby ShakerMay 09 23:50
twitterit is nice that Wine will keep their work from going to complete waste, but they should know that W32 is a dead endMay 09 23:51
schestowitzMinceR: baby (shaker) is deadMay 09 23:53
schestowitzJobs killer the baby and the shakerMay 09 23:53
schestowitz*lledMay 09 23:53
MinceRi knowMay 09 23:53
schestowitzWine is great for migrations in particular (n00bs). It's easy to be misled. It's the press that's dying, not the migrations. Lots of organisations I know move to Linux, but there are no reporters left to cover this. Watch Microsoft news and you'll see the same drought over there; but there it is a real drought, not just reporting.May 09 23:53
schestowitz ;'Though I did not work with every tool for this article, I will say that most tools worked fine. I will also say that the hardware management with Mandriva is excellent which means easier work with hardware devices. The tools that are a part of the Control Center are basic tools and seem to be fine for someone who is doing basic admiMay 09 23:54
schestowitznistration, but not up to speed for more advanced options."May 09 23:54
DavidGerardwell yeah. win32 is a dead end.May 09 23:54
DavidGerardotoh there are zillions of apps that are never going to be ported.May 09 23:55
schestowitz10 Steps for Basic Linux Desktop Security < >May 09 23:55
DavidGerardand for getting people to free OSes ... there's always that *one* app.May 09 23:55
schestowitzDavidGerard: well, Vista7 has XP modeMay 09 23:55
schestowitzFor those with certain chips and lots of RAMMay 09 23:55
schestowitzThat's the wrong approach to back-ocompatMay 09 23:55
twitterfor every *one* app, there are several free ones.May 09 23:55
DavidGerardand those obscure windows apps your whole business runs on that you can't even find the developer or company? wine runs them really well on the whole.May 09 23:55
DavidGerardtwitter: you have evidently never actually convinced anyone with that.May 09 23:56
schestowitzWine -- master of winspace[sic]May 09 23:56
twitterand that *one* app, it's not going to work with Vista anyway.May 09 23:56
DavidGerardthe scary thing about win32 is how few programmers it took to reimplement the *important* parts of windowsMay 09 23:56
DavidGerardwell yes. wine is a better windows than vsta.May 09 23:56
twitterapparently, Dave, I have not convinced you.May 09 23:56
schestowitzHhee.May 09 23:57
schestowitz10 Steps for Basic Linux Desktop SecurityMay 09 23:57
schestowitz 09 23:57
DavidGerardy'know, if openoffice wasn't enough ... microsoft now have competition for *windows*.May 09 23:57
schestowitzSomething went wrongMay 09 23:57
schestowitzLogin screenMay 09 23:57
MinceRtwitter: then why are people still using dosbox? :>May 09 23:57
schestowitzFor all URLs requestedMay 09 23:57
DavidGerardargh, toddler got to my laptop agan!!May 09 23:57
schestowitzDaemonFC: shake itMay 09 23:57
schestowitzLike in iphoneMay 09 23:57
twitterI use dosbox when I feel like I've been bad and need to be punished.May 09 23:58
schestowitzOops. DavidGerard May 09 23:58
MinceRShake it baby!May 09 23:58
DavidGerardu and i don't work nowMay 09 23:58
DavidGerardarfghMay 09 23:58
MinceRi use dosbox when i feel like playing tyrian2000May 09 23:58
schestowitzMinceR: baby of booty?May 09 23:58
MinceRor the catacomb 3dMay 09 23:58
MinceRschestowitz: indeedMay 09 23:58
DavidGerardi emailed the fsf about the openwatcom licenseMay 09 23:58
DavidGerardapparently they'll be approaching the company about making the license gpl-compatbleMay 09 23:59
schestowitzHow to Install 3.1 on Ubuntu 9.04 < >May 09 23:59
twitterI've actually got a few horrible old BASIC programs that can be handy for calcs.  They are the result of about 10 years of class projects.May 09 23:59
schestowitzDavidGerard: maybe your chance to get the thing sorted outMay 09 23:59
DavidGerardquite possibly the most horrble 'open' license ever 09 23:59
twittermaking watcom gpl compatible would be nice.May 09 23:59
DavidGerardi don't know how the fuck it passed OSIMay 09 23:59
DavidGerardit failed DFSGMay 09 23:59
twittergood luckMay 09 23:59

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