IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 22nd, 2009

taconepftMay 22 00:00
taconeworkswithu is mainly rubbishMay 22 00:00
taconewell not really rubbish, but pretty a commercial siteMay 22 00:00
schestowitzWorld’s Smallest Computer Runs on Ubuntu < >May 22 00:00
taconesome enterprise consideration along with a 90% of pointless speculationsMay 22 00:01
schestowitztacone: agreedMay 22 00:01
taconeubuntu newsletter, though, seems to like it.May 22 00:01
schestowitzI like the guy who runs it thoughMay 22 00:01
taconeit looks professionalMay 22 00:01
schestowitzI'm friends with Joe (vary Guy)May 22 00:01
taconeurghMay 22 00:01
taconethat guy never links to anyoneMay 22 00:01
schestowitzThe people who write for WorkswithU (which is a name I hate BTW) troll a lotMay 22 00:01
schestowitzProvoke ratherMay 22 00:01
schestowitzNot trollMay 22 00:02
taconei pretty much hate it.May 22 00:02
taconehimMay 22 00:02
schestowitzIt's like they try to make "U" the standards LinuxMay 22 00:02
taconeworkswithu is a nice nameMay 22 00:02
schestowitzit annoys some peopleMay 22 00:02
taconethat's not the problem :)May 22 00:02
schestowitztacone: all the sites look professionalMay 22 00:02
schestowitzThey look the sameMay 22 00:02
schestowitzJust different colours and allMay 22 00:02
schestowitzWEeb designersMay 22 00:02
taconenot in the lookMay 22 00:03
taconethey're successfull at being considered professionals, i think.May 22 00:03 - 2nd round looking bad??!May 22 00:03
taconethe var guy especially, has a nice following. but i didn't read anything interesting from him, until nowMay 22 00:03
schestowitzHe's buddied with NovellMay 22 00:04
schestowitzAnd I pressure himMay 22 00:04
schestowitz*ddiesMay 22 00:04
taconewe'll seeMay 22 00:04
taconeoffline time !May 22 00:05
taconebye !May 22 00:05
schestowitzDid you see ?May 22 00:05
schestowitzOh, nmMay 22 00:05
schestowitzlatersMay 22 00:05
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chips_b_malroyyou must have seen this one   Jury orders Microsoft to pay $200M in patent dispute 22 00:07
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schestowitzWaitMay 22 00:08
schestowitzOh, he leftMay 22 00:08
schestowitzI found a goodieMay 22 00:08
schestowitzchips_b_malroy: yesMay 22 00:08
chips_b_malroya guess why M$ needs to borrow money, the upcoming fines in the IE bundling with the EU.  also following by the fine with the EU for office formatsMay 22 00:10
chips_b_malroyGE, Microsoft, Caterpillar fight Obama tax plan 22 00:11
chips_b_malroylast one then I gone     Microsoft charity crackdown spurs boycott 22 00:14
schestowitzWe've just moved b/w servers and the new one lacks an extension, I thinMay 22 00:15
schestowitz*thinkMay 22 00:15
schestowitzSo expect error pages. tessier can fix this when he gets backMay 22 00:15
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chips_b_malroyI read the log about the dos attack and tor.  Is there a way to ban ip addresses from tor exit modules?May 22 00:16
chips_b_malroyip tablesMay 22 00:16
chips_b_malroyor perhaps change the comment system to only reg people?May 22 00:17
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schestowitzcomment system?May 22 00:18
schestowitzFor members only?May 22 00:18
schestowitzIt's possibleMay 22 00:18
schestowitzBut trolls might still come byMay 22 00:18
chips_b_malroythinking the log said that comments were the vehicle they used to dos?May 22 00:19
chips_b_malroyregging users with email verification of course will not stop the trolls, but might slow down the dos onesMay 22 00:20
chips_b_malroylaterMay 22 00:22
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schestowitzMicrosoft is spinning out of control, so it starts squeezing charitiesMay 22 00:24
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Balrog_schestowitz: is brokenMay 22 00:38
Balrog_ alsoMay 22 00:38
schestowitzYes, tessier needs to fix thisMay 22 00:38
schestowitzBut he's awayMay 22 00:39
Balrog_okMay 22 00:39
schestowitzMissing extensionMay 22 00:39
Balrog_looks like mod_rewrite is brokenMay 22 00:39
schestowitzYesMay 22 00:39
Balrog_( I hear mod_rewrite is a nightmare to work with ... too powerful for your own good :P )May 22 00:40
schestowitztessier just need to enable it or somethingMay 22 00:41
schestowitzWe moved it to a vitual serverMay 22 00:41
Balrog_o ok.May 22 00:42
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tessiereh?May 22 01:03
schestowitzHeyMay 22 01:03
schestowitzI tried phoning just now :-)May 22 01:03
schestowitzmod_rewriteMay 22 01:03
tessierYeah, that's why I jumped over hereMay 22 01:03
schestowitzLike the last timeMay 22 01:03
tessierOh, have the .htaccess thing. I forgot about that...May 22 01:03
tessierOk, just a sec...May 22 01:03
schestowitzThanks!May 22 01:03
schestowitzSite been broken all this time. No big deal..May 22 01:03
schestowitz:-)May 22 01:04
tessierThere we go...all setMay 22 01:05
tessierActually not all that many people have the new dns yetMay 22 01:05
tessierThe old site is still getting lots of hitsMay 22 01:05
schestowitzPhew :-)May 22 01:05
schestowitzThanks a millionMay 22 01:05
schestowitzBalrog_ got some errorMay 22 01:05
schestowitz*rsMay 22 01:05
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schestowitzThanks for all the effortMay 22 01:05
schestowitzGroklaw had a long discussion about this.May 22 01:06
schestowitzThe angry Novell people spread the rumour that I attacked myself May 22 01:06
_Hicham_they must prove itMay 22 01:07
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tessierThat would be an odd thing to do to oneself.May 22 01:07
schestowitz_Hicham_: they don't need toMay 22 01:07
schestowitzCause they would be wrongMay 22 01:07
schestowitztessier: yesMay 22 01:07
_Hicham_maybe tessier did it :-DMay 22 01:08
_Hicham_hahahahahaMay 22 01:08
schestowitztessier did a lot.. of good thingsMay 22 01:08
schestowitzHe saved the siteMay 22 01:08
schestowitzWe got stranded by the hostMay 22 01:08
schestowitzAfter it had been hit by DDOSMay 22 01:09
_Hicham_bravo tessierMay 22 01:09
schestowitztessier managed to beat the DDOS unlike the hostMay 22 01:09
_Hicham_tessier is our saviorMay 22 01:09
schestowitzThe other host tried for 10 hours at about load average of 40-60May 22 01:09
schestowitzAt 10am it cut us offMay 22 01:09
_Hicham_tessier : did u secure the website?May 22 01:09
schestowitz_Hicham_: he didMay 22 01:09
_Hicham_I heard that untangle is a good solutionMay 22 01:10
schestowitzI think he's at work nowMay 22 01:10
schestowitzLet's not bother himMay 22 01:10
_Hicham_okMay 22 01:10
schestowitzA month from now I'll resume Comes. That'll be big impact, possible FPs in Digg and SlashdotMay 22 01:11
tessier_Hicham_: Secure how? That's a big question.May 22 01:11
schestowitzLike Feburary and January this yearMay 22 01:11
_Hicham_tessier : did u hear about untangle?May 22 01:12
tessierschestowitz: I don't see the point in attacking the BBC for their botnet thing being potentially illegal.May 22 01:12
tessier_Hicham_: No. What/who is it?May 22 01:12
schestowitztessier: it's not me attacking themMay 22 01:12
schestowitzA lot of lawyers criticised themMay 22 01:12
schestowitzBack in MarchMay 22 01:13
_Hicham_tessier : 22 01:13
schestowitzThey needed to apologise in publicMay 22 01:13
tessierLawyers...meh. It's what the judge says that matters.May 22 01:13
schestowitztessier: they hijacked people's PCs without permission and paid the bad guys for the work, thus encouraging themMay 22 01:13
_Hicham_Windows againMay 22 01:16
_Hicham_Windows is helping hijackersMay 22 01:16
schestowitzThe BBC knew it was a PR fiasco and the British press was all over themMay 22 01:16
schestowitzThen they apologised and issued statements of regret IIRCMay 22 01:16
tessierschestowitz: Did they actually hijack them? Or did they just take control of part of a botnet that was hijacking them?May 22 01:19
tessierschestowitz: I would say it really depends a lot on exactly how they got involved.May 22 01:19
tessierIf they initiated their own independent branch of the botnet then that's a problem.May 22 01:20
tessierBut if they commandeered a command and control node and watched the rest spread (which would have happened had they been involved or not) I don't really see a problem with it.May 22 01:20
schestowitzI think they hired a botmasterMay 22 01:20
tessierThis sort of research needs to be done.May 22 01:20
schestowitzAs in, they fed the syndicate which does thisMay 22 01:20
tessierAnd as far as I am concerned these people donated their resources to the botnet.May 22 01:20
schestowitzThere are other issuesMay 22 01:21
tessierWhat else can you call the act of running Windows?May 22 01:21
schestowitzWorth enumeratingMay 22 01:21
schestowitzNeglect to name the source of the issue, but that's minorMay 22 01:21
schestowitzThere were hundreds of articles about it in MarchMay 22 01:21
schestowitztessier: one study claims hundreds of millions of WInodws boxes are idle zombiesMay 22 01:22
schestowitz320,000,000May 22 01:22
schestowitzCerd said 150,000,000 in 2006May 22 01:22
schestowitzGeer said more like 100,000,000 around the same timeMay 22 01:23
schestowitz320,000,000 is a 2008 figureMay 22 01:23
tessierNot at all surprising.May 22 01:23
schestowitzShocking --yesMay 22 01:23
schestowitzIt would inciate panicMay 22 01:23
schestowitzHad people known this betterMay 22 01:23
schestowitz3 respectable sourcesMay 22 01:23
schestowitzSecunia (2008, around december):  99% of Windows is ripe for hijackingMay 22 01:24
schestowitzAs in, not fully patchedMay 22 01:24
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schestowitzThe big 2008 remote access vuln cost a lot. All versions affected, silent hijacking, no user intervention.May 22 01:25
schestowitzConficker was one symptom among moreMay 22 01:25
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schestowitzAnyway, about the BBC, it's the tip of the icebergMay 22 01:26
schestowitzGoing back to 2006 when they swapped staff with Microsoft and blocked Linux, said only 600 people in the UK use Linux (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1), and so on... you'd get the picture given more contextMay 22 01:27
schestowitzAshley Highfield (BBC chief at the time... now... Microsoft employee!): ""We have 17.1 million users of in the UK and, as far as our server logs can make out, 5 per cent of those [use Macs] and around 400 to 600 are Linux users."May 22 01:28
tessierSo far nothing has cost anyone so much that anyone really gave a care.May 22 01:30
tessierYou know my favorite vulnerability? VOIP vulnerabilities.May 22 01:30
tessierBecause when someone gets into your PRI and makes international calls it COSTS BIG TIME.May 22 01:31
tessierAnd you lock that shit down.May 22 01:31
tessierI know someone who got a $100,000 bill that way.May 22 01:31
schestowitzDid you hear about Asterisk?May 22 01:31
schestowitzIt got exploited brieflyMay 22 01:31
schestowitzIIRC the FBI stepped inMay 22 01:31
schestowitzAbout 3 months agoMay 22 01:31
schestowitzAt the time, the latest version was already secure, so they needed to prod people so that they upgradeMay 22 01:32
_Hicham_gnMay 22 01:34
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neonfloss 22 01:34
schestowitzneonfloss: thanks, addedMay 22 01:35
taconeuhMay 22 01:35
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tessierI heard.May 22 01:36
neonflossadded?May 22 01:37
tessier.004% Linux desktop market share in .uk! Go team!May 22 01:37
schestowitz:-(May 22 01:37
schestowitzPreinstalls of Linux are 3% hereMay 22 01:37
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tessierI bet that is an old figure. Netbooks have changed things.May 22 01:38
schestowitzYesMay 22 01:38
schestowitzAnd I don't buy preinstalledMay 22 01:38
schestowitzI get empty HDD so that I choose my own distroMay 22 01:38
schestowitzI currently have 3 Ubuntus and 1 MandrivaMay 22 01:38
schestowitzAt the clusters it's all FedoraMay 22 01:38
tessierTonight I may be installing Linux over an XP laptop.May 22 01:40
tessierThat's one more license MS will continue to count and one Linux install that won't be counted.May 22 01:40
schestowitzDual-boots mess the numbersMay 22 01:40
schestowitzAt the faculty all PCs are set up with dualMay 22 01:41
schestowitzIPs count as WindowsMay 22 01:41
neonflossschestowitz, do you think software piracy is hurting open source software?May 22 01:43
schestowitzThe larger deployments are in places like brazl BTWMay 22 01:43
schestowitzWith market share of maybe >50% for purchased PCs and installed based of around 10%May 22 01:44
tessierneonfloss: I think it is. It removes one of the many incentives to use FOSS.May 22 01:44
schestowitzSome people replace Linux with counterfeited WindowsMay 22 01:44
schestowitzBut many stay with GNU/Linux. People from Brazil say so and Microsoft's leakes Comes docs concurMay 22 01:44
neonflosstessier, trueMay 22 01:44
tessierIt was very hard to get people interested in Linux in VietnamMay 22 01:44
tessierThere are CD shops there where you can go buy a copy of anything you want for $1May 22 01:45
neonflosstessier, but I only found out about FOSS through pirating. now I dont pirate software anymoreMay 22 01:45
schestowitzHad Microsoft charged for Linux in Brazil, it would have IBM take over Brazil's computingMay 22 01:45
schestowitz*Charged for WindowsMay 22 01:45
schestowitztessier: did you see the charity story?May 22 01:45
schestowitzMS gets boycottedMay 22 01:45
schestowitzIt wants moneyMay 22 01:45
schestowitzFrom poor charities amid economic slump. it was in the news. Suddenly Redmond is not content with 'free' Windows.May 22 01:46
schestowitzMicrosoft charity crackdown spurs boycott < >May 22 01:47
tessierNo, I didn't. Cool.May 22 01:48
tessierA friend of mine just received a letter from the BSA for his company.May 22 01:48
tessierHe has been working on moving to Linux for a few years. This might hasten it. But they need some CAD software etc.May 22 01:48
schestowitzWine?May 22 01:49
schestowitzIt got a lot betterMay 22 01:49
schestowitzGoogle works on it too. It's in its interest.May 22 01:49
tessierWine won't help with their illegal copies of Solidworks.May 22 01:50
tessierIt's not just windows but the apps themselves they have to get licensed.May 22 01:50
tessierI gotta head home. I'm at the office now. ttylMay 22 01:50
schestowitzThanksMay 22 01:53
schestowitzJust one thingMay 22 01:53
schestowitzSee this: 22 01:53
schestowitzIt's recent and the numbers are staggeringMay 22 01:53
schestowitzHuge number of Linux users in Europe use itMay 22 01:54
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oiaohm  MS needs some new lawyers.May 22 02:41
schestowitzWhy does zdnet still use p-ids?May 22 02:42
schestowitzYeah, I saw this one earlierMay 22 02:42
schestowitzWas gonna mention it tomorrowMay 22 02:42
schestowitzNow I'll do some daily links. Joy!May 22 02:42
schestowitzBTW, BN runs in a VM nowMay 22 02:42
schestowitztessier moved it to a containmentMay 22 02:43
taconeniceMay 22 02:44
oiaohm  The MS url.May 22 02:44
oiaohmwhy should a court case be allowed to work as advertisement.May 22 02:45
oiaohmAnd why should a court case be run to the time line of the defendant.May 22 02:45
oiaohmBad timing stiff.May 22 02:45
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schestowitzc 22 03:12
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chips_b_malroyRoy are you still up?May 22 03:52
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chips_b_malroyOk, its different time on the other side of the pond.  Still, got some information 4 u on the ddos.  I emailed it to Goblin, but it needs to be PM to you.  Not for a public log.  And Goblin is not too good about checking his email.May 22 03:55
chips_b_malroythere are two emails I sent goblin, he needs bothMay 22 04:00
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schestowitzI'm hereMay 22 04:01
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oiaohm  This is something nasty.May 22 04:27
twitterso, I wonder what "mal roy" has to say.May 22 04:29
twitterthat can't be said in public.  hmph.May 22 04:29
twitterohm, this is not the first time M$ has engaged in censorship 22 04:30
oiaohmDifference here is this one is a trade embargoed.  Question is could this ever apply to activation serversMay 22 04:32
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twitterYou do not know if M$ is only applying this lame "trade" embargo.  It is likely they apply all forms of censorship to all accounts.May 22 04:33
oiaohmThe problem I have if what MS is doing here USA goverment takes as what it is allowed to do.  How bad will it end up.  Lot of USA trade embargos have not been applied on the web.May 22 04:38
oiaohmCensorship is 1 thing.  Distrubting peoples means to do business is something else.May 22 04:38
twitterM$ censored Truthout for political reasons and refused to listen to the wishes of either Truthout or their customers using the mail services M$ owns.May 22 04:40
twitterIt is not surprising that they use US laws as an excuse to break yet more communications.May 22 04:40
oiaohmI am more worried if USA goverment starts trying to apply that against Non MS.May 22 04:41
twitterIt would be a shame if they forced their idiotic decision on all software companies.May 22 04:41
twitterFree software faces all sorts of restrictions, and has faced even more in the past.May 22 04:42
oiaohmExactly why I called it something nasty.May 22 04:42
twitterEncryption export restrictions, DeCSS bans and other idiotic laws have all harmed both free and non free software makersMay 22 04:42
twitterESR predicted M$ would try to claim free software is terrorism.May 22 04:43
twitterI think they will fail before they screw things up too badly.May 22 04:44
oiaohmSome of the MS supporters are starting to wake up how much trouble MS is in.May 22 04:45
twitterexport restrictions on encryption, for example, were lifted long ago after the US government realized that it only harmed US interests.May 22 04:45
twitterIt is about time that M$ people realized that non free software is a dead end.May 22 04:46
twitterThe less money M$ has, the less trouble they will be able to make.  Their failure can not come soon enough.May 22 04:46
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oiaohmThere still would be too soon.May 22 05:12
oiaohmtwitter: if the process of migration a way from MS products is not sorted out there failure could cause major chaos.May 22 05:12
twitterPast and continued use of M$ crap has created more trouble than use of any free software.May 22 05:13
twitterI think 8 years of XP failure is more than enough and that clear migration paths exist.May 22 05:14
twitterM$ has tried to block those paths with changes in both Windows and file formats, but Vista failed.  Now is a better time to migrate out than ever.May 22 05:15
twitterand migration to GNU/Linux is easier than Vista/Windows7 migration.May 22 05:15
twitterThe Pooch has been screwed.May 22 05:15
twitterRoy is doing a nice job collecting Rise of GNU/Linux Desktop storiesMay 22 05:18
twitterThese are good news for everyone.May 22 05:19
oiaohmThere are still gaps.May 22 05:23
oiaohmSome of it is working out how to get funding into the gaps.May 22 05:23
oiaohmMore migrations more funding it to weak areas as well.May 22 05:24
twitterThere are very few categories of workers who actually need Winblows.  The time to move the majority is now.May 22 05:24
oiaohmAccountany software in some countries is lacking.May 22 05:24
twitterThe larger the community is, the quicker problems get solved.May 22 05:24
oiaohmVideo production tools and some audio tools still need work.May 22 05:25
twitterGNU Cash is a good accounting package and older stuff, like PeachTree probably works better under Wine than Window anyway.May 22 05:25
oiaohmGNU Cash is not configured for everywhere.May 22 05:26
oiaohmThere are gaps.May 22 05:26
twitterCinerella and blender are professional grade video media tools.May 22 05:26
oiaohmBlender has funding.May 22 05:26
oiaohmIts making good progress.May 22 05:26
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twitterHollywood is a big user of GNU/Linux already, so that "gap" in a minority use area is actually filled in both sensesMay 22 05:27
oiaohmCinerella.  They really need to copy blender lead and run a like a move create of there own.May 22 05:27
oiaohmThere are a few workflow issues in it.May 22 05:27
twitterGNU Cash can be configured for everyone a lot easier than non free software.May 22 05:28
twitterThe movie editing issues are of little concern to the vast majority of users and programs like Kino meet their needs.May 22 05:28
oiaohmtwitter: template issue with GNU Cash.May 22 05:28
twitterThose who really care and need to make professional grade videos can learn the expert tools.May 22 05:29
oiaohmProfessional grade needs good workflow.May 22 05:29
oiaohmEach blender movie has found defects in its workflow and put action in place to fix it.May 22 05:29
twitterWhat would you have people use, Ohm?May 22 05:30
oiaohmBasically a bit more focus on QA could lift a lot of Open Source programs up.May 22 05:30
oiaohmAnd a bit more focus on making sure of market coverage.May 22 05:31
oiaohmGaps most are not massive.May 22 05:31
oiaohmBut those gaps can cause people who are starting out trouble.May 22 05:31
oiaohmBlenders having to replace the complete interface system to fix a workflow problem was massive.May 22 05:32
twitterI don't think any of the problems you mention are a real barrier to IT roll outs of free software, or any excuse to roll out Vista 7 instead.May 22 05:33
twitterSuccessful deployments of GNU/Linux right here in Redmond, WA attest to free software being more than ready.May 22 05:33
oiaohmIts basically the less painful the migration is the more who will do it.May 22 05:34
twitterGNU/Linux is far less painful than Vista or Windows 7May 22 05:35
oiaohmMigration to Windows 7 is not what you are going to be painless.May 22 05:35
oiaohmSo a lot will try staying with XP as long as possiable.May 22 05:35
twittersticking to XP is impossibleMay 22 05:35
twitterplans need to be laid now to avoid Vista chaosMay 22 05:36
oiaohmUp until 2 years ago I was still finding windows 3.11 in places.May 22 05:36
oiaohmWays for businesses to have what they need painless as able need to be done.May 22 05:37
oiaohmLinux servers appearing in the small business market will be a help.May 22 05:37
twitterSticking with Windows is as painful as computing can be.May 22 05:38
oiaohmThere is worse.May 22 05:38
oiaohmMost painful I know is old dos based points of sale.May 22 05:39
oiaohmYes some businesses still use them.May 22 05:39
twitterdosbox could fix their hardware problemsMay 22 05:40
twittereven they are good candidates for free software migrationMay 22 05:40
twitterM$ stabbed them in the back a decade agoMay 22 05:40
oiaohmNormally closed source dos with no specs on fileformat.May 22 05:41
oiaohmSo migration to new bit of software is fun.May 22 05:41
oiaohmEmulation is not a solution you really want to use unless you have to twitter.May 22 05:42
twittersounds like most games and dosbox deals with them better than Vista willMay 22 05:42
twitteryou are right, it would be better to ask IBM for a nice system insteadMay 22 05:42
twitterlike this,+redmond+washington&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=24.455808,52.558594&ie=UTF8&ei=sS4WSqbVLYjqjQOk1KDwCw&sig2=DBgtzJRD5dWLJ-v1uIbFnw&cd=1&cid=47630940,-122182066,6463291867562539280&li=lmd&ll=47.655675,-122.14016&spn=0.101753,0.214233&z=12May 22 05:42
twitterI wonder how many M$ employees have used GNU/Linux in that storeMay 22 05:43
twitterThey seem to have moved rather well to an all GNU/Linux environment what 8 years ago?May 22 05:43
oiaohmThere migration was speed over many years.May 22 05:44
oiaohmThey did not convert everyone at once.May 22 05:44
twitterSo?  The solution will work for anyone.May 22 05:44
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oiaohmTo a point.May 22 05:44
twitterEvery computer in the store is not GNU/Linux.May 22 05:44
twitterGo look for yourself.May 22 05:45
oiaohmIBM had the resources to write any software they required to make it work.May 22 05:45
twitterEmployees will even let you pull up an xterm and play for a while.May 22 05:45
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: what computer store ever sells computers with Linux on them btw, aside from enterprise class systemsMay 22 05:45
twitterTarget.May 22 05:45
oiaohmSo they could close all the gaps they had themselfs twitter.May 22 05:45
twittergo buy a EEE PC and give it to your 4 year old.May 22 05:46
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: IBM is too busy peddling AIX on their PPC workstationsMay 22 05:46
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I thought most EEEs moved on to Windoze nowMay 22 05:46
twitterNot the ones that people buy, roverMay 22 05:46
twitterAsus suffered a big revenue drop on that mistake.May 22 05:47
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: I remember a point when there were plenty of Linux netbooks and even computers like GreenPC as well as that "G OS" thing but they disapeared from shelves once XP machines flooded the outletsMay 22 05:47
oiaohmAll EEE are supported to run Linux or Windows.    Windows version still has a Linux fast start option.May 22 05:47
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so thats once exception, but it is far from the nomr sadlyMay 22 05:47
twitterThe story of what M$ did to GNU/Linux (your GOS) at Walmart is well covered by anti-trust documents and BN, rover.May 22 05:48
twitterIt's been a money loser for retailers.May 22 05:48
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: but it still doesn't make a difference how much they lost, its gone from shelves nowMay 22 05:48
oiaohmLinux has not really lost.May 22 05:48
twitterit may not matter to you or M$, but money losses matter to retailers.May 22 05:49
oiaohmMS is really make a loss on every netbook with XP on.May 22 05:49
twitterthey are not going to make the same mistakesMay 22 05:49
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: the only glimmer of hope is that Dell is once more planning to offer the option to get Ubuntu v8.04 for their computers through their online retailMay 22 05:49
oiaohmMost people notice the trial version of Office on them.May 22 05:49
twitterno Vista 7 channel stuffing for the survivorsMay 22 05:49
oiaohmThat MS pays the OEM more than what the OEM pays for XP.May 22 05:50
twittercomputer stores will have to adapt to the GNU reality or they will fail.May 22 05:50
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but M$ still makes it back through their Office SuiteMay 22 05:50
oiaohmNot really.May 22 05:50
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twitterM$ can't keep giving software and bribes away foreverMay 22 05:50
twitterthey are losing their assMay 22 05:50
oiaohmMS down 30+ percent of there income did you not ask how that could happen.May 22 05:51
twittergoing into debt.May 22 05:51
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: they can if people plan on purchasing updates for their Office software among other thingsMay 22 05:51
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oiaohmThinking that redhat and other companies are up.May 22 05:51
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: its like the video game console or printer marketMay 22 05:51
tacone 22 05:51
twitterpeople hate the new office, it's a bigger failure than VistaMay 22 05:51
taconepretty niceMay 22 05:51
oiaohmThere really was not a downturn in most of the software world.May 22 05:51
twitterM$ is swirling down the toiletMay 22 05:52
oiaohmThe complete downturn MS has is self caused.May 22 05:52
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: people still buy new M$ Office though for the added functions and the thought that they need to keep up to state with "standardized" formats of the "business world"May 22 05:52
twitteryes, but loss of large clients like big dumb banks and retail partners make their downturn even worse, hopeless even.May 22 05:53
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: don't sit back and gloat any small setback from M$, its still a really large company that can bounce back within yearsMay 22 05:53
twitterYou live in a different world from me RoverMay 22 05:53
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: don't you learn anything from Sun Tzu?May 22 05:53
oiaohmRover have you seen how many deparment MS has given up.May 22 05:53
oiaohmLinux is doing Sun TzuMay 22 05:53
oiaohmIts no the ammount of land you hold its the tatical importance.May 22 05:54
twitterI see a big dumb company that can't change taking on debt and firing peopleMay 22 05:54
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but twitter seems to forget one: " "Never underestimate your opponent."May 22 05:54
oiaohmI have not.May 22 05:54
oiaohmHow do you increase the price of your OS.  When the OS you are competign with is free.May 22 05:54
twitterI use Windows every day.  My estimation of M$'s fate is optimistic if anything.May 22 05:55
oiaohmYou have to be way better right.May 22 05:55
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so they shaved off a couple of departments. IBM shut down their whole entire PC building subsidiary and sold off the remaining trademarks like "ThinkPad." Now they are back in enterprise and stronger than everMay 22 05:55
oiaohmMS is not so the netbook market OS price is locked at bugger all.May 22 05:55
twitterM$ has no such fallbacksMay 22 05:55
oiaohmIBM did more than shaved a few departments.May 22 05:55
twitternone that make any moneyMay 22 05:55
oiaohmLarge ammount of IBM income comes from renting buildings.May 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: true they did make an overhaul of their entire corporate foolosophy and makeupMay 22 05:56
oiaohmIBM had factories to move there head offices into.May 22 05:56
twitterM$ is incapable of such thingsMay 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: yes they are, they have buildings around the worldMay 22 05:56
oiaohmSo they could rent there head offices for great income.May 22 05:56
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: they can sell off portions of their campusMay 22 05:56
twitterHaMay 22 05:57
oiaohmMS has builds but they lack the extras to move thre offices.May 22 05:57
twitterThere's a real estate glut up here, Rover.May 22 05:57
oiaohmYou still need the space.May 22 05:57
oiaohmIBM came back stronger but its nothing like it was.May 22 05:57
twitterMaybe M$ can put a toll house on their new bridge and charge more money for their private mall.May 22 05:57
twitterlolMay 22 05:57
Carl_Rover2k12twitter: and at any moment it can turn around because 0bama's adminstration is enable the treasuring to allow banks to continue throwing money at realestate, but thats another issue entirelyMay 22 05:58
oiaohmMicrosoft if it lives threw the same conversion it will be nothing like it was.May 22 05:58
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: it certainly won't but it can still dominate business appsMay 22 05:58
twitterIf M$ becomes a free software company, everyone will be happy.May 22 05:58
oiaohmIBM Orcale NAS builder are going to come after MS SBS.May 22 05:58
twitterBut they won't be able to keep up the monopoly rents in any caseMay 22 05:58
oiaohmWith intergrated solutions.May 22 05:58
oiaohmRemember intergrated solutions come with all the business apps most businesses need without needing to pay MS a cent.May 22 05:59
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: Oracle has problems of its own with the potential of their newly aquired MySQL to be forked to piecesMay 22 05:59
twittercompeting free software service providers are better for everyone than M$'s boxed crapMay 22 05:59
oiaohmOracle intergrated solutions don't depend on Mysql.May 22 05:59
twitterOracle's problems are of no concern to anyone besides Oracle.May 22 05:59
twitterMySQL will survive in any case.May 22 06:00
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: they need some sort of repo standard to update byMay 22 06:00
oiaohmMysql is nothing more than a minor annonacye to a company Oracles size.May 22 06:00
oiaohmOracle is way bigger than MS.May 22 06:00
oiaohmIf oracle stoped aquiring companies for 3 years they would have enough money in the aquiring company fund to by MS out.May 22 06:00
twitterThis has been interesting, but there's nothing new here.  Good night.May 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12ciaoMay 22 06:01
oiaohmCatch you around twitter.May 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I doubt it M$'s market cap is $230 billionMay 22 06:01
Carl_Rover2k12Oracle is 4.1 billionMay 22 06:02
oiaohmOk 4 years.May 22 06:02
oiaohmOracle spends 60 billion a year on company aquirements.May 22 06:02
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: M$ can probably do the same and wind up a behemouth that would make them an easier target for anti-trust legislationMay 22 06:03
Carl_Rover2k12but they rather spend on killing the source insteadMay 22 06:03
oiaohmOracle market cap does not show its true value.May 22 06:03
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: same could have been said about Sun Micro, and look what happened to themMay 22 06:04
oiaohmSun Mirco was not causing there market cap to be low by aquiring companies.May 22 06:04
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: assets don't mater when you are measuring publicly traded valueMay 22 06:04
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: its what percentage of capital a company holds that translates to earningsMay 22 06:05
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: perhaps Commodore Business Machines could be still around today if that weren't the caseMay 22 06:06
oiaohmSo far this year Orcale has aquired 4 companies.May 22 06:06
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but that will just translate to growing their marketshare, while on the flip end it negatively impacts their earnings and thus dividends to shareholdersMay 22 06:06
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oiaohmThing is Oracle dividends don't change.May 22 06:07
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: and that is only the case if whatever they purchase is lucrativeMay 22 06:07
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: if its not then its just a lose leaderMay 22 06:07
oiaohmDue to these aquires if anything they grow.May 22 06:07
oiaohmThey don't have debt.May 22 06:07
oiaohmLook are orcale numbers.May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: they probably have shown there latest fiscal booksMay 22 06:08
oiaohmOrcale 2002 huge ammounts of money nothing much to do with it. So started buying.May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I hope everything that Oracle aquired from Sun and others translates to good revenue not only for the share's sake but also for everyone working thereMay 22 06:08
oiaohmAnd has not stoped since.May 22 06:08
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: they are buying because they hope to corner the datacenter and enterprise software marketMay 22 06:09
oiaohmThat complete time there return to shareholders has grown.May 22 06:09
oiaohmExactlyMay 22 06:09
oiaohmThey are buy and growing there income Carl_Rover2k12May 22 06:09
oiaohmThe buying is hiding how much it has grown.May 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: Oracle still hasn't reached the value they had in 2000-2001 thoughMay 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: or they are buying in a race of time to aquire potentially good assets for a cheap price because they are afraid what they have now may become obsoleteMay 22 06:10
Carl_Rover2k12or they just want to no longer worry about paying licensing fees for their Java based apps tooMay 22 06:11
oiaohmSun aquirement Orcale expects to give shareholders slightly higher returns.May 22 06:11
oiaohmWith compete to end to end solutions.May 22 06:12
oiaohmOrcale need someone with production plants.May 22 06:12
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but it means much more in creating new markets for Oracle to get into, thus growing their marketshare. Such rapid buy overs only hype shares for a brief amount of time before the expenses shown make them plumet.May 22 06:12
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: production plants for what?May 22 06:13
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: running your own production plants is a really expensive endeavor unless you corner the market like IntelMay 22 06:13
oiaohmProduction servers with there software already installed sold to customer as a complete item.May 22 06:13
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: that can be done cheaper by licencing the schematics to a 3rd partyMay 22 06:14
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: why else has AMD spun off their foundriesMay 22 06:14
oiaohmAMD had no option on spinning off there foundries.May 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: also if they wanted foundries for chips in the US they could just contract IBM to help forge them, IBM's plants are some of the most advanced in the worldMay 22 06:15
oiaohmIBM and Orcale compete directly with each other.May 22 06:15
oiaohmIn particular markets.May 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so then who's option was it, the shareholders, as far as I can tell all publically traded companies have to eventually answer to shareholdersMay 22 06:15
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so what if they compete, IBM would know a lucrative deal if they came across one and it would prevent them from getting any anti-trust flacMay 22 06:16
oiaohmSun was not making a lose when Orcale aquired them either.May 22 06:18
oiaohmOrcale does not aquire loss making companies.May 22 06:18
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: Sun wasn't? 22 06:18
oiaohmGet the brake down of parts Orcale was interested in.  Customers had backed off SUN due to fear not due to poor products.   One of those customers was Orcale themselves.May 22 06:22
oiaohmYou do expect customers to back off a company aiming to be aquired.May 22 06:23
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: fair enough, but lets take a look at their outlook prior to announcement of wanting to be aquired: 22 06:26
oiaohmRemember Orcale first attempted to just aquire the hardware side.May 22 06:27
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: which was the only part showing any growthMay 22 06:27
oiaohmExactly.May 22 06:27
oiaohmThat was the only bit Orcale wanted.May 22 06:27
oiaohmIts bit like a junk box with something you know is valueable to your company.May 22 06:28
oiaohmAnd person will not sell you the valueable item unless you take the box.May 22 06:28
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: hopefully Oracle embraces Solaris though, its a great OS despite the existence of LinuxMay 22 06:29
oiaohmMysql was no interest to Orcale so what ever happen will not worrying them too much.May 22 06:29
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but its still a problem for those who use Sun software and have become dependent on it for their repoMay 22 06:30
_boo_does anyone know what is gonna happen with sun developers?May 22 06:30
oiaohmMany ideas exist.May 22 06:30
Carl_Rover2k12_boo_: which Sun developers, you got the software and hardware onesMay 22 06:30
_boo_they are worriedMay 22 06:30
oiaohmOrcale might spin off a few foundations.May 22 06:30
_boo_Carl_Rover2k12, softwareMay 22 06:30
Carl_Rover2k12_boo_: well all the job cuts or layoffs probably already occured by nowMay 22 06:30
_boo_so no more cuts?May 22 06:31
Carl_Rover2k12_boo_: not sureMay 22 06:31
_boo_i'm not sure that cuts already were performedMay 22 06:31
oiaohmSun also had basically alreadly fire all there market department.May 22 06:31
Carl_Rover2k12_boo_: if more do happen, it will be for entirely new reasonsMay 22 06:31
oiaohmSo there sales being down before aquirement was to be expected.May 22 06:31
_boo_i care only about software developers in sunMay 22 06:32
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: their marketing didn't do most of the sales for Sun, it was their technical service team that didMay 22 06:32
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: have you seen a Sun commercial recently?May 22 06:32
oiaohmSun had cleared lot of overlapping staff.May 22 06:33
Carl_Rover2k12_boo_: Oracle's cheif executive did outline Solaris and Java one of the main outlying reasons for their aqusition: even though their Ultra-SPARC hardware was the one really bringing in the earnings.May 22 06:33
oiaohmHow the technical service team upsells was planed.May 22 06:33
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: well Sun did sell most of their stuff to their existing customersMay 22 06:34
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Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: and more were created through word of mouth then anything elseMay 22 06:34
Carl_Rover2k12created= gottenMay 22 06:35
oiaohmAlso any ideas how mcuh of Orcales stack of software depends on java.May 22 06:35
oiaohmYou are talking around 80 percent of Orcale sales have something java in it.May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I heard most of their datatel relied on JavaMay 22 06:36
_boo_thanks, Carl_Rover2k12May 22 06:36
oiaohmSo that going to someone hostile to them could be a major problem.May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: yepMay 22 06:36
oiaohmSun was a tatical and profitable aquirement if managed right.May 22 06:36
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: Sun was pretty leanient on software licensing because they relied more on hardware salesMay 22 06:37
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Carl_Rover2k12or at least that is how their formers execs thoughtMay 22 06:37
Carl_Rover2k12they figured their software would attract customers to their hardwareMay 22 06:37
oiaohmOrcale is able to recover the cost of buying sun from suns income in about 3 years.May 22 06:38
oiaohmIf they can manage it right.May 22 06:38
oiaohmOrcale will be doing both.  Using there software to attract hardware sales and using hardware sales to attact software sales.May 22 06:39
oiaohmLike IBM does now.May 22 06:39
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: don't get me wrong I like much of how Sun ran stuff, it helped grow innovation not only within their product line but also benefited other developers through joint projects with the open source community. Unfortunately, the shareholders didn'tMay 22 06:39
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but they will have to license the software in such a way that will please shareholders, but it won't be good for open source imoMay 22 06:40
oiaohmOrcale also runs some joint projects with the open source community.May 22 06:40
oiaohmThey have just been more blanced about it.May 22 06:40
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but they may attach more stringent TOS aggrements and not follow GPL guidelines like IBMMay 22 06:41
oiaohmOrcale follows the licences to the letter.May 22 06:41
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: they will surely try to squash any forks of their software if they can't aquire it into their ownMay 22 06:41
oiaohmNot always.May 22 06:42
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but will they now with all these new assets, they didn't have to worry as much before with a lighter loadMay 22 06:42
oiaohmOrcale has had projects they had before forked away from them.May 22 06:42
oiaohmThey class it as the nature of Open Source.May 22 06:42
oiaohmOrcale point of view if you don't give customer what they want and the program is open source expect it forked away from you.May 22 06:44
oiaohmPeople don't fork something normally unless they are unhappy with it for some reason.May 22 06:45
_boo_for good reasonMay 22 06:45
oiaohmOrcale and Cisco systems have lots in common.  They don't try to kill invention instead try to support it.   In the hope that they can harvest useful bits to sell to customers.May 22 06:47
oiaohmOrcale could have killed of Mysql years ago if they had wanted to.May 22 06:48
oiaohmOrcale had control of key bits of software Mysql depended on to operate.May 22 06:48
_boo_isn't mysql still used?May 22 06:48
oiaohmmysql is still being used.May 22 06:49
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: and now MySQL maybe forked again and one of the forks may have a considerable following because one of the former lead developers from the original is behind itMay 22 06:50
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: and now since Oracle presides over the entire MySQL language, they may look at things a bit differently with preasure from their shareholdersMay 22 06:51
oiaohmNever know with orcale they might aquire the lead developer back.May 22 06:52
oiaohmWe will find out more after the transfer of operation.May 22 06:53
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: you seem to be very optimistic, do you have shares in Oracle?May 22 06:53
oiaohmI know the history Carl_Rover2k12 I don't have shared.May 22 06:53
oiaohmMysql and Orcale have shared some backend parts.May 22 06:53
oiaohmSo there lead developers talking to each other has been nothing strange when there are problems in the back end.May 22 06:54
oiaohmIts never been what you call hostile releationship.May 22 06:55
oiaohmOracle history of aquired companies says they will keep exactly what they are doing under wraps until they are ready to do it.May 22 06:56
oiaohmSome of that history includes spinning parts they don't want into foundations.May 22 06:57
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I hope you are right, with your knowedge why aren't you investing in Oracle then?May 22 06:57
oiaohmTaxMay 22 06:57
oiaohmI have other investments that give me about the same return without tax bill.May 22 06:58
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: you hedge?May 22 07:00
oiaohmI am Australian not USA.May 22 07:02
oiaohmInvesting the the USA market I don't get any tax offsets to the income so have to pay ful tax on it.May 22 07:02
oiaohmJust say warped Australian tax laws Carl_Rover2k12May 22 07:04
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: btw, did those website blacklisting laws get shot down yet?May 22 07:05
oiaohmOne minor issue it was not a new law to force them being applied.May 22 07:06
oiaohmIt was just a policy change.May 22 07:06
oiaohmSo far policy has not been approved.May 22 07:06
oiaohmWe have this 22 07:07
oiaohmYou use basically any form of electronic comumication you come under there control.May 22 07:07
oiaohmThey have had the power to enforce censorship under law for a long time.May 22 07:08
oiaohm   Yes they do have the power to shut down any site in Australia hosting the content they were ment to be blacklisting.May 22 07:10
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: thats pretty alien concept to us Uhmericans, the FTC can only shutdown media if it is prooven that it has broken any false advertising guidelines (which are rather loose) or is prooven to be outright fraudulent. And that only occurs if enough complaints are submitedMay 22 07:13
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I guess there are pros and cons to everythingMay 22 07:13
oiaohmacma has blacklisted some pritty stupid things over time.May 22 07:14
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: yea, I read about a Dentist's site being blacklisted because someone hijacked it to secretly post a childporn link in one of the urls.May 22 07:15
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: and repealing a blacklist is very hard if not impossible right?May 22 07:15
oiaohmProblem is the blacklist is secret.May 22 07:16
oiaohmIf you can work out you are on it.May 22 07:16
oiaohmAppealing it is simple.May 22 07:16
oiaohmAnd getting self removed is simple.May 22 07:16
oiaohmThey don't even bother emailing the site admin to tell the site admin they have been blacklisted.May 22 07:17
oiaohmThis is what has so many up in arms.May 22 07:17
_boo_someone gotta crack m$ site and post child porn in thereMay 22 07:18
oiaohmPolicy would have been good if they had something like a site that you could punch in a URL and find out if its black listed or not.May 22 07:21
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oiaohmNo need to really publish the complete blacklist but people running sites kinda need to know when they have been black listed incase the blacklisting is invalid.May 22 07:21
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: thats certainly a big problem, ecspecially for a government agency that is supposed to be within a democracyMay 22 07:22
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: but sometimes I got to wonder if a reprisentative in most nations is now only to entitled to reprisent those who pay more to themMay 22 07:22
oiaohm areMay 22 07:22
oiaohmworse they can hold you 7 days without charge.May 22 07:23
oiaohmAnd if they get a judges to sign off every 7 days they could in theory hold you for ever without charge.May 22 07:23
oiaohmOnly advantage what ever you say in that 7 days cannot be used in a court of law.May 22 07:24
oiaohmWe don't have bill of rights here.May 22 07:26
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so then what exactly does Australia have to ensure personal liberties?May 22 07:30
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I guess its more typical for other republics, like in France, that the government provide and protect the liberties, then for the indivisual to feel expected they must always fight for it.May 22 07:33
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: except what you sited is an example of adversary based appeal upon a prosecutionMay 22 07:33
oiaohmWe have anti descrimintation laws.  That is about as far as personal liberties protection goes.May 22 07:35
oiaohmBasically they would have to treat everyone equally crap.May 22 07:36
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: except those who have been already prosecutedMay 22 07:38
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oiaohmAll prosecutions can be applead.  Due processes have to be followed.  Now bending law can land on the side of anti descrimitation very quicky.May 22 07:40
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so you are hoping that helps overturn any perminent ban on websites and other mediums?May 22 07:42
oiaohmDue process has to be followed so any ban on anything can be applead if you know about it.May 22 07:45
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: I meant that there should be an appeals process for every action the government may take against an indivisual so long as it is not involving a felony, and with the current anti-discrimination laws in place that the government is obligated to hold a fair trial for anyoneMay 22 07:45
oiaohmanti-discrimination basically sees to it.May 22 07:46
oiaohmBecause other wise you could not applead or alter any ruling.May 22 07:47
oiaohmLaw here does not protect privacy.May 22 07:49
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oiaohmThere are some covering what companyes and the like can handlin in privacy Carl_Rover2k12  But when it comes to investage the defence becomes memory loss.May 22 07:52
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: so I guess lobbying buys there way into Australian law tooMay 22 07:54
oiaohmTo a point.May 22 07:55
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oiaohmRegional coding is illegal here under free trade rules of Australia.May 22 07:55
oiaohmIt also falls under the basic anti descrimitnation laws of Australia.May 22 07:56
oiaohmThere are limits on how far lobbying can go in australian laws due to the anti descrimintaiton base.May 22 07:57
Carl_Rover2k12oiaohm: interesting I guess American law makers can learn a thing or two in combating certain corporate favortism in such a way that doesn't outline specifically targeting themMay 22 07:58
Carl_Rover2k12but then again it is a doubled edged sword like how you have been telling me beforeMay 22 08:07
Carl_Rover2k12anyway I should probably get some sleep nowMay 22 08:07
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Omar871Guys, you gotta check this out: 22 08:37
oiaohmYour url is kind broken Omar871May 22 09:03
Omar871 22 09:03
oiaohm  << This is the link that works.May 22 09:04
oiaohmnetworkworld mailto has always been a trap.May 22 09:04
schestowitzOld news...May 22 09:35
MinceRgeekingsMay 22 09:36
schestowitzI have some good posts to start the day withMay 22 09:41
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uncle_pocketsThis thing looks dead...anyone here?May 22 10:14
MinceRbraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaainsMay 22 10:15
uncle_pocketsyou selling or giving away for free?May 22 10:15
uncle_pocketsI see that went right over your pointy head, MinceR..BTW idiotic nym you have.Maked you sound like some kind of dog food or something.May 22 10:18
uncle_pocketsMakes...May 22 10:18
uncle_pocketsOh well this channel is dead....BTW how's the DDoS going? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa!May 22 10:18
uncle_pocketsBye....May 22 10:18
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MinceRgood riddance.May 22 10:19
oiaohmSometimes it lucky on IRC that a person its not on the computer next to you.May 22 10:27
schestowitzYeah.May 22 10:29
schestowitzI missed itMay 22 10:29
MinceRindeedMay 22 10:30
oiaohm  I guess you have seen the netbook shipping with malware included.May 22 10:32
schestowitzDidn't pay attention until now...  Companies Created by Former Microsoft Employees Rally Around Novell, (Pseud)Open Source < >May 22 10:34
schestowitzHaha.May 22 10:34
schestowitzIt happened before, oiaohm May 22 10:34
schestowitzLike last yearMay 22 10:34
schestowitzThere were jokes about it, tooMay 22 10:34
oiaohmCatch is its happening more and more.May 22 10:36
oiaohmFrom many different vendors.  So basically you cannot trust a machine to be clean out box.May 22 10:36
*schestowitz does an article about AustraliaMay 22 10:40
schestowitzAre you OK with: "Oiaohm, who points to this page from Microsoft’s lobbying Web site, asks: “Why should a court case be allowed to work as advertisement? And why should a court case be run to the time line of the defendant?”"May 22 10:40
oiaohmThat artical was about EU.May 22 10:42
oiaohmFine with the line.May 22 10:42
schestowitzYes, but you'll seeMay 22 10:49
schestowitzIt's not the main sstoryMay 22 10:49
Omar871Guys, don't you think that the Free Software community is an urgent need for more community events that can compete with the one's arranged by Microsoft? (E.g: Imagine Cup)May 22 11:41
Omar871is *in* an urgent need.May 22 11:41
MinceRthose would be nice.May 22 11:49
schestowitzIf Flash is More Open Than Moonlight, Does That Make Microsoft Moonlight Proprietary? < >May 22 11:51
schestowitzOmar871: agreedMay 22 11:51
schestowitzDo we not have enough?May 22 11:51
Omar871schestowitz: I'm not sure we do.May 22 11:51
schestowitzMicrosoft "community events" are as much about community as Bush to democracyMay 22 11:52
schestowitzOmar871: does Red Hat have presence in Jordan?May 22 11:52
Omar871schestowitz: The most famous one is the GSoC. Not sure if we have anything else.May 22 11:52
MinceRFLOSS needs presence in hungary.May 22 11:53
Omar871schestowitz: Yeah, there's a company, that I can't remember the name of, that offers RedHat support and certifications.May 22 11:54
Omar871schestowitz: Other than that, my friend is working on establishing an Open Source Society in Jordan.May 22 11:55
Omar871schestowitz: I'll try to convince him to name it: Free Software Society in Jordan.May 22 11:56
Omar871schestowitz: Agreed.May 22 12:04
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schestowitzMicrosoft is Again Paying the Huge Price for Wanting Anti-Free Software Laws < >May 22 12:13
schestowitzushimitsudoki: there?May 22 12:13
schestowitzSee the latest post about MoonlightMay 22 12:13
schestowitzIt links to DownloadSquadMay 22 12:13
schestowitzMaybe you can spread it further: 22 12:14
schestowitzOmar871: sorry, got distractedMay 22 12:14
schestowitzMinceR: they made some FOSS promises recently. Just PR?May 22 12:14
MinceRperhapsMay 22 12:14
MinceRi don't think i've managed to decode themMay 22 12:14
schestowitzOmar871: you can ask Linux companies for help or sponsorship to run eventsMay 22 12:14
MinceRmy reading says they said they'll spend 12 MHUF on m$ and novell and 12 MHUF on FLOSSMay 22 12:15
schestowitzThey might help you provided you put up a bannerMay 22 12:15
MinceRbut it's possible that it's 12 on m$ and 12 on novellMay 22 12:15
schestowitzMinceR: yes, "Novell". I remember.May 22 12:15
schestowitzIt's like the fake debateMay 22 12:15
MinceRalso, it might be something "based on open standards" instead of FLOSSMay 22 12:15
schestowitzOver the wrong issueMay 22 12:15
schestowitzFOSS vs CSS: Novell vs Microsoft?May 22 12:15
schestowitzArgument over 'war' in Iraq: Obama vs Bush?May 22 12:16
schestowitzNope.May 22 12:16
schestowitzMaybe Kucinich/Paul vs BushMay 22 12:16
schestowitzChoose left or right, get the same thingMay 22 12:16
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oiaohmOmar871: name it both.May 22 12:25
oiaohmSome markets respond well to free software others responed better to open source.May 22 12:26
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Omar871oiaohm: True.May 22 12:30
oiaohmThere is nothing against a enity having 2 names.May 22 12:31
schestowitzQuote of the Day: “Microsoft Doesn’t Follow Standards, They Create Them.” < >May 22 12:32
oiaohmBecides it makes some interesting debates at times with the different points of view of free software and open source supporters.May 22 12:32
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taconeomg, i wrote a post at 4 am and 2 people already copy-pasted it on their blogMay 22 12:37
schestowitzLOLMay 22 12:38
taconeone of them is one guy i also quite respectMay 22 12:38
taconegoshMay 22 12:38
schestowitz "Brian, if you value your reputation as a serious contributor, don’t draw attention to the LHB blog. If I didn’t know any better, I would suspect you of attempting to direct traffic to that site under the pretext of some kind of bogus controversy. And if you really want to know just who writes LHB then why not ask his good friend Miguel."May 22 12:39
schestowitz 22 12:39
schestowitz> Hey, lighten up! LHB is not about hating linux, it’s just satire - art, if you willMay 22 12:40
schestowitzLHB is about pissing all over the Open Source community, anyone by association with that blog also gets tarnished. Anyone reading that blog would run like hell. Oh, wait  May 22 12:40
schestowitz> I don’t see why he has to give up his name. Why? So he can be found and fucked by the freetards?May 22 12:40
schestowitzHe’s happy to attack other people personally, goose gander etc ..May 22 12:40
schestowitz> The Linux Hater is actually, a Linux fan. How else could he actually know AND explain all the bugs in Linux?May 22 12:40
schestowitzOr who ever writes his material for him. Possible the Microsoft Lunux lab May 22 12:40
schestowitz--May 22 12:41
schestowitzA friend of mine said: "He's now talking up a fake controversy with LHB, he is curious as to who this asnonymous blogger is. I posted and asked why not ask Miguel :) "May 22 12:41
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taconei won't comment. imho he just has been trolledMay 22 12:41
schestowitzBryan Lunduke fake spat with Linux Hater 22 12:41
schestowitztacone: tacone: who was trolledMay 22 12:41
taconeattracting lhb traffic to his site would be utterly stupid. that would not be good trafficMay 22 12:41
schestowitzFriend says: "Lhater is classic, sound like it could have been written by flatfish(s), it;s the combination of abuse and technical issues. And dropping in a 'freetard' and a 'crapware' every so often. See here where Lunduke is talking up a fake disagreement with Hhater. So we have both Lunduke and de Icaza both drawing attention to it. Time for a call to 'out' Lhater."May 22 12:42
schestowitzI don't want to blog thisMay 22 12:42
schestowitzI was asked toMay 22 12:42
schestowitzBut it would only feed both guysMay 22 12:42
schestowitzLHB and Bryan LundukeMay 22 12:42
schestowitzThe "Linux sucks" peopleMay 22 12:42
schestowitzLinux Hater, Bryan Lunduke, and Freedom < > "To suggest such unified development for the sake of being like the rest, is to restrict people’s personal tastes and freedoms."May 22 12:43
schestowitzEven their readers don't disagree with their FUDMay 22 12:43
tacone 22 12:43
schestowitzLundumb < >May 22 12:43
schestowitztacone: what's there? New comments?May 22 12:43
oiaohmlunduke is a lot like me.   Ok neither of us really hate Linux.  But lot of things annoy the hell out of us.May 22 12:43
oiaohmLinux Hater started out with good detailed articals on things and slowly gone down hill as topics disappeared.May 22 12:44
schestowitz (New York Times Wipes Journalist's Online Corpus)May 22 12:44
schestowitzI got some more about censorshipMay 22 12:44
oiaohmIts like as if another ghost writer provided his information.May 22 12:44
taconenothing. me writing about him having been trolledMay 22 12:44
schestowitzAnd I was shown example of censorship where MS was involvedMay 22 12:45
taconehe also posted a follow up, btw. an unuseful one.May 22 12:45
schestowitzRegarding lost archive, that reader says: "Not me, it was a long time ago, I posted the before one, went back to have another look and it was changed. It seems to be a common occurrence where they lose the archive when moving house. :) "May 22 12:46
schestowitzHe was censored by the "Linux haters"May 22 12:46
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oiaohmDividing and merge happens through open source history.May 22 12:55
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toroshiMay 22 12:58
torosare you under DDoS attack again?May 22 12:58
torosthe site is pretty slow now... :(May 22 12:58
schestowitzYes, I hear..May 22 12:59
schestowitzLet me checkMay 22 12:59
schestowitzHeavy loadMay 22 13:00
schestowitzBut I have no access to logsMay 22 13:00
schestowitzLet me checkMay 22 13:00
schestowitzoad average: 1.54, 1.25, 1.32May 22 13:02
schestowitz[boycottn@boycottnovell log]$ uptimeMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12847 apache    16   0  279m  61m  976 S  0.0  6.0   2:41.16 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz11787 mysql     16   0  267m  52m 3288 S  0.0  5.1  20:33.59 mysqldMay 22 13:02
schestowitz13336 apache    15   0  258m  40m 2644 S  0.0  4.0   2:34.76 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12850 apache    15   0  258m  40m 1876 S  0.0  4.0   2:31.57 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12862 apache    15   0  259m  40m 1336 S  0.0  3.9   2:46.30 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz14609 apache    16   0  257m  39m 2532 S  0.0  3.9   2:22.29 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz16293 apache    15   0  258m  39m 1808 S  0.0  3.9   1:45.92 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12863 apache    16   0  258m  39m  972 S  0.0  3.9   2:30.98 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12845 apache    15   0  258m  39m  976 S  0.0  3.8   2:34.88 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12844 apache    15   0  257m  39m 1888 S  0.0  3.8   2:43.28 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12860 apache    15   0  257m  38m 1576 S  0.0  3.8   2:36.94 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz24687 apache    16   0  257m  38m 1988 S  0.0  3.8   0:26.21 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12846 apache    15   0  257m  38m 1472 S  0.0  3.8   2:38.52 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12849 apache    15   0  258m  38m  976 S  0.0  3.8   2:39.50 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12864 apache    15   0  257m  38m 1468 S  0.0  3.8   2:31.29 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz12843 apache    15   0  257m  38m  972 S  0.0  3.7   2:39.33 httpdMay 22 13:02
schestowitz16181 apache    15   0  257m  37m  984 S  0.0  3.7   1:57.76 httpd May 22 13:02
Omar871Guys, I really feel sad when I hear that one of my friends are participating in Imagin Cup... :(May 22 13:02
taconegoshMay 22 13:02
schestowitzWe have filtering enables (iptables firewall), but it looks like it MIGHT be an effect of somethingMay 22 13:02
Omar871*is* participating..May 22 13:02
taconeit seems a normal load to meMay 22 13:02
schestowitzYesMay 22 13:03
schestowitzBut someone in identica just told me it took him a minute to load a pageMay 22 13:03
schestowitz"I reckon your hits are spiking @schestowitz. I had to wait over 45 secs for some pages."May 22 13:03
schestowitzWhere is my apache log?May 22 13:03
schestowitz /log/var/http* requires rootMay 22 13:03
schestowitzAnd I can't suMay 22 13:03
oiaohmFor me its strange.May 22 13:04
oiaohmI stop trying to access boycott novell for about 60 seconds then try again and everythign is good.May 22 13:04
schestowitzHow to access apache log... ?May 22 13:05
taconeyou can't.May 22 13:06
taconeyou can't ask tessier to put you in the adm group if you're on a debianMay 22 13:06
taconeor do some trick to let you read the logs nextimeMay 22 13:07
taconebut i doubt you'll be able to read them nowMay 22 13:07
schestowitzYes, we're not there yetMay 22 13:07
taconeschestowitz: weren't you on a VM, though ?May 22 13:07
schestowitzI also need an outgoing mail server for notificationsMay 22 13:07
schestowitztacone: yesMay 22 13:07
taconeyou don't have the root on that BM ?May 22 13:08
taconeVMMay 22 13:08
schestowitzI doMay 22 13:08
schestowitzLet me retryMay 22 13:08
oiaohmYou don't have ~/.log in your home dir by any chance.May 22 13:08
taconetry with sudo su -May 22 13:08
oiaohmNormally when I setup apache with users I place the log for there site in there account.May 22 13:08
schestowitz[boycottn@boycottnovell ~]$ cd ~/.logMay 22 13:08
schestowitz-bash: cd: /home/boycottn/.log: No such file or directoryMay 22 13:08
oiaohmOpps ~/.logsMay 22 13:09
oiaohmLeft a s off.May 22 13:09
taconebbMay 22 13:11
schestowitzI got inMay 22 13:12
oiaohmThanks for reminding me that I need to do log cleaning on this machine.May 22 13:12
schestowitzI'd need to process the logsMay 22 13:12
oiaohmOnly have not done it for 7 years.May 22 13:12
oiaohmUpgrades and all in that time.May 22 13:12
*tacone has quit (" ajax IRC Client")May 22 13:14
schestowitzOK, I see stats nowMay 22 13:20
schestowitzMany errors from last nightMay 22 13:21
schestowitzAfter DNS switchoverMay 22 13:21
schestowitz2700 UIPs in 13 hoursMay 22 13:21
schestowitzDowntime messed up with Google listings AFAIKMay 22 13:21
oiaohmYep DNS switchover does cause hickups.May 22 13:22
Omar871There's a question that I've been asking myself for sometime..May 22 13:26
schestowitzThe logs compressed were 50MB for the first half of MayMay 22 13:27
Omar871Free software-based webistes, how do they develop the animated parts of their websites if they don't use Adobe Flash?May 22 13:27
schestowitzOmar871: many waysMay 22 13:27
schestowitzgifsMay 22 13:27
schestowitzOr even JSMay 22 13:27
oiaohmjavascript can do a lot.May 22 13:28
schestowitzThere's also tricks one can do with SVGMay 22 13:28
schestowitzBut MS won't support SVGMay 22 13:28
schestowitzEveryone does but MSMay 22 13:28
schestowitzit wants you to use Microsoft Silverlight ot Microsoft MoonlightMay 22 13:28
schestowitzOmar871: search for SVG+JS demosMay 22 13:28
oiaohm  Right threw to playing 3d games.May 22 13:29
schestowitzIt's amazing what can be achievedMay 22 13:29
oiaohmIn javascript.May 22 13:29
schestowitzMS screws JS tooMay 22 13:29
oiaohmIE don't work.May 22 13:29
torosOmar871: for video, they can use the "video" tagMay 22 13:30
torosand include ogg videosMay 22 13:30
schestowitzI doMay 22 13:31
torosthe next firefox release will support itMay 22 13:31
schestowitzThen people complain it ain't valid XHTMLMay 22 13:31
torosschestowitz: I know :)May 22 13:31
Omar871cool!May 22 13:31
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohmMay 22 13:31
Omar871schestowitz: Actually, if there's anything they should complain about is IE's complete disobedience to the W3C standards. :)May 22 13:32
_Hicham_السلام عليكم و رحمة الله تعالى و بركاته يا سيد عمرMay 22 13:32
oiaohmHi _Hicham_May 22 13:32
Omar871_Hicham_: و عليكم السلام و رحمة الله و بركاته سيد هشامMay 22 13:33
_Hicham_oiaohm : do u use the Nouveau driver?May 22 13:34
oiaohmNo it don't run with my Nvidia card anywhere near good enough.May 22 13:34
oiaohmRemember I do run blender the cpu and video card breaking application.May 22 13:34
_Hicham_so u use the proprietary one?May 22 13:35
oiaohmKinda have to.May 22 13:35
oiaohmEven then its a pain.May 22 13:35
oiaohmBecause only particular versions of it work.May 22 13:35
_Hicham_do u think that Nouveau can replace the proprietary one in the near future?May 22 13:35
oiaohmNot near.May 22 13:36
oiaohmI might end up swaping my card to ATI.May 22 13:36
_Hicham_the latest Nvidia driver doesn't support all previous cards?May 22 13:36
_Hicham_r2xx to r5xx work great with open source driverMay 22 13:36
oiaohmNvidia driver has many break points.May 22 13:36
_Hicham_does the proprietary driver support KMS?May 22 13:36
oiaohmNop.May 22 13:37
oiaohmNo KMS with Nvidia closed source drivers.May 22 13:37
_Hicham_I heard that some chipsets support KMS with NouveauMay 22 13:37
oiaohmI need the opengl support.May 22 13:38
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schestowitzload average: 3.03, 1.99, 1.51May 22 13:38
schestowitzDon't know what's causing itMay 22 13:39
_Hicham_is it another beginning of a ddos?May 22 13:39
schestowitzProbably notMay 22 13:39
_Hicham_oiaohm : no opengl support with nv and nouveau?May 22 13:40
schestowitzI've just done a comprehensive file comparisonMay 22 13:40
schestowitzTo ensure all files and data are in tactMay 22 13:40
schestowitzAll clear, but I am using a package called "visitors" to view statsMay 22 13:41
oiaohmYou don't know blender _Hicham_May 22 13:41
schestowitzIt's Free softwaareMay 22 13:41
schestowitzoiaohm: do you know "Visitors"?May 22 13:41
schestowitzAnything better than awstats?May 22 13:41
schestowitzFor analysing error logs too?May 22 13:41
schestowitzurchin is now Google spywareMay 22 13:41
schestowitzAnd not FOSSMay 22 13:41
oiaohmParticularly with the new game engine _Hicham_ it gets nasty on card.May 22 13:41
oiaohmHave not tried VisitorsMay 22 13:42
schestowitz 22 13:42
schestowitzoiaohm: I downloaded it like 4 years agoMay 22 13:42
_Hicham_I don't use blenderMay 22 13:42
schestowitzIts main merit is that it dissects things deeperMay 22 13:42
_Hicham_I use OpenGL with GtkMay 22 13:42
_Hicham_and I am having a problem right now withMay 22 13:42
_Hicham_though the situation have improved nowMay 22 13:43
_Hicham_with xserver 1.6May 22 13:43
oiaohmHmm Visitors has a nice graphic.May 22 13:43
schestowitz 22 13:43
schestowitzoiaohm: what do Winders uses use?May 22 13:43
_Hicham_I am trying to send key presses to three opengl areasMay 22 13:44
_Hicham_but I have a problem is refreshing the areasMay 22 13:44
_Hicham_only the first created area is refreshedMay 22 13:44
_Hicham_the other got refreshed on other eventsMay 22 13:45
oiaohmMe most of the time I use awstats most windows admins seam not to bother with stats.May 22 13:46
schestowitzHehe. Someone just told me that the guys who choose Microsoft for the UK government and London don't like meMay 22 13:46
schestowitzThey mentioned my name specifically.May 22 13:46
schestowitzHeh. They really should be angry at Mark Ballard, who did most of the investigative work. Some Microsoft GMs mention me too because they don't like me (so I've heard)May 22 13:46
schestowitzoiaohm: Windows servers I understand don't come with free stats s/wMay 22 13:47
schestowitzThey are asked to BUY someMay 22 13:47
schestowitzTypical WindowsMay 22 13:47
schestowitzComes with Solitaire and defrag May 22 13:47
oiaohmawstats works on windows.May 22 13:47
_Hicham_oiaohm : any idea?May 22 13:47
_Hicham_fuck WindowsMay 22 13:47
schestowitzEverything else needs you pulling a credit carMay 22 13:47
_Hicham_any idea?May 22 13:47
schestowitzoiaohm: I knowMay 22 13:47
schestowitzBut it's not as integrated to it as cpanelMay 22 13:47
schestowitzI saw some forum messages some years backMay 22 13:48
oiaohmThe drivers for ATI are not what you call perfect yet _Hicham_May 22 13:48
schestowitz 22 13:48
_Hicham_well, at least for meMay 22 13:48
schestowitzor implementation assistance and to purchase a serial code, please contact an Urchin Software Authorized Consultant.May 22 13:48
_Hicham_radeon is working greatMay 22 13:48
schestowitzBlechMay 22 13:49
schestowitzSerial codeMay 22 13:49
_Hicham_Schestowitz Software Inc. , alias SSIMay 22 13:49
oiaohmFunny part I have sold the setup of awstats to windows admins.May 22 13:49
_Hicham_all kinds of softwareMay 22 13:49
_Hicham_for no feeMay 22 13:49
oiaohmYes thick buggers.  I get to make money off free software from them.May 22 13:50
schestowitzWTF?May 22 13:50
schestowitz187MBMay 22 13:50
schestowitzFor Urchin for GNU/LinuxMay 22 13:50
_Hicham_187 MB of what?May 22 13:50
schestowitzoiaohm: that's servicesMay 22 13:50
schestowitzHow money is made with freedom respectedMay 22 13:50
schestowitzCode=freeMay 22 13:50
schestowitzAudio=freeMay 22 13:51
schestowitzPerformance=not freeMay 22 13:51
schestowitzHuman attention=not freeMay 22 13:51
schestowitz_Hicham_: the download of UrchinMay 22 13:51
schestowitzIt's proprietaryMay 22 13:51
schestowitzAnd it's not free (gratis) AFAIKMay 22 13:51
schestowitzMaybe it's for old customerMay 22 13:51
schestowitz*sMay 22 13:52
schestowitzWhen Google bought themMay 22 13:52
schestowitzBut Google has no STORE for itMay 22 13:52
schestowitzSo it must be legacyMay 22 13:52
schestowitzThey just want people to permit spyingMay 22 13:52
schestowitzUrchin->Google AnalyticsMay 22 13:52
schestowitz=spywareMay 22 13:52
oiaohmWhen they ring you up to buy it again they are thick buggers.May 22 13:53
oiaohmBecause they have installed a new server.May 22 13:53
oiaohmPeople wonder why MS network get broken into it is the quality of the staff.May 22 13:53
_Hicham_we can make good money with free softwareMay 22 13:54
schestowitzThis is complicated to set upMay 22 13:54
schestowitzInvolved mysql stuffMay 22 13:54
_Hicham_always look for the RedHat wayMay 22 13:54
schestowitzCmes with big manualMay 22 13:54
schestowitzThis stuff is heavyMay 22 13:55
_Hicham_mysql is standardMay 22 13:55
schestowitz700MB for the software uncompressedMay 22 13:55
_Hicham_nothing can be done without mysqlMay 22 13:55
schestowitz "Urchin Software from Google is supported exclusively through Urchin Software Authorized Consultants"May 22 13:56
oiaohm  This one is highly useful when running squid  schestowitzMay 22 13:56
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, but it's not an Apache analyserMay 22 13:56
schestowitzIt digs very deep into the server opMay 22 13:56
schestowitzoiaohm: I have WebalizerMay 22 13:56
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schestowitzUsed it since 2001May 22 13:56
oiaohmIt is true to label insanely light to use.May 22 13:57
schestowitz"The demo license is good for 30 days. You do not need to reinstall the software if you decide to purchase a permanent license.  "May 22 13:57
schestowitzAnyway, it was interetsing to see what it's aboutMay 22 13:57
schestowitz700MBMay 22 13:57
schestowitzWIndows/BSD/LinuxMay 22 13:57
oiaohmurchin is not the most expensive out there.May 22 13:58
schestowitzI think I might just give up on checking usageMay 22 13:58
schestowitzNot worth the effortMay 22 13:58
oiaohmThere is a hunting one I love  fully 3d display.May 22 13:58
schestowitzI stopped checking my other sites years ago, having done so dailyMay 22 13:58
schestowitzIt doesn't help the writing in any wayMay 22 13:58
oiaohmIe geo back trace.May 22 13:59
oiaohmSome day I have to build either blender or kde marble.May 22 14:01
schestowitztop - 06:17:22 up 1 day,  8:48,  2 users,  load average: 2.06, 1.65, 1.59May 22 14:03
schestowitzTasks:  91 total,   2 running,  89 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombieMay 22 14:03
schestowitzCpu(s):  7.9%us,  1.7%sy,  0.0%ni,  7.3%id, 82.8%wa,  0.0%hi,  0.0%si,  0.3%stMay 22 14:03
schestowitzMem:   1048576k total,  1043208k used,     5368k free,      768k buffersMay 22 14:03
schestowitzSwap:        0k total,        0k used,        0k free,   112032k cachedMay 22 14:03
schestowitzIs this normal for a VM?May 22 14:03
schestowitzIt takes up all the RAMMay 22 14:03
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oiaohmLinux by nature will use all ram for something.May 22 14:04
oiaohmIe disk cache....May 22 14:04
oiaohmNo swap file usage means no stress.May 22 14:04
oiaohmNormally I have a swap file or part in a virtual machine.May 22 14:05
schestowitzIs  Alastair Otter doing MS press releases now? 22 14:06
schestowitzWow. Again Alastair Otter prods the Microsoft party line on ODF < >, but why?May 22 14:08
schestowitzThen he posts this: Microsoft’s ODF support is broken, says alliance  <  >May 22 14:09
schestowitz"The open-source house boasts that over the last four years, more than 8,000 developers have built more than 12,000 add-ons for its Firefox browser." 22 14:11
schestowitzHere it goes again: DDoS attack chokes Chinese net surfing < >May 22 14:12
tacone 22 14:18
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trmancoanother good arse kick for moonight -> 22 14:20
schestowitztrmanco: yes, posted about it this morningMay 22 14:25
schestowitzit's good that people are catching upMay 22 14:25
schestowitztrmanco: haven't seen the comments yet, but they probably attack himMay 22 14:25
schestowitz(the Mono 'crusade' that is)May 22 14:26
taconelolMay 22 14:27
trmancoyeahMay 22 14:28
schestowitzMicrosoft suspends DC in Iowa, Google builds one. Ah! The irony!111 22 14:36
schestowitzHehe. "Stitchup *is* annoyed with XX... *and* XX... *and* you... and pretty much *anyone* who doesn't think the sun shines out of his arse or that he hasn't sold the UK Public Sector down the drain to a huge, vicious, multipli-convicted serial monopolist..."May 22 14:38
schestowitzvery funnyMay 22 14:38
schestowitzI have always been very polite when writing about "Stitchup". Some people told me that putting a mirror in front of a person sometimes makes then furious.May 22 14:38
taconelol !May 22 14:39
taconeschestowitz: when the EU gave the pdf to Marco Cappato, they asked him not to publish itMay 22 14:40
taconeso EU didn't really made it public for purpouseMay 22 14:40
schestowitzNifty: Alleged Nokia Linux smartphone plans exposed by leak May 22 14:40
schestowitztacone: yes, I knowMay 22 14:40
schestowitzit's the same with meMay 22 14:40
taconeI didn't know !May 22 14:40
schestowitzI have asked for MONTHS for a documentMay 22 14:40
schestowitzThey break the lawMay 22 14:40
taconei thought they finally released it.May 22 14:40
schestowitzTransparency DirectiveMay 22 14:41
schestowitzI should mail them againMay 22 14:41
schestowitzI even show them the directiveMay 22 14:41
schestowitzThey just bring more colleagues into CCsMay 22 14:41
schestowitzNo, they didn't release itMay 22 14:41
taconeif they affirm they lost the document, they should be held liable for loosing documentation.May 22 14:41
schestowitzThey pretend they don't know WHATMay 22 14:41
taconethey should be held liable of not knowing WHAT :)May 22 14:42
schestowitzLars Hindkjær PedersenMay 22 14:42
schestowitzmain gatekeeperMay 22 14:42
schestowitztacone: let me do a post about itMay 22 14:42
schestowitzI forgot about itMay 22 14:42
taconelolMay 22 14:42
taconeok, I'll let you :)May 22 14:43
taconefuck. another copypaste of my postMay 22 14:43
taconei'm getting tired of thatMay 22 14:43
schestowitz"I am out of the office from the 6th of April 2009 to the 20th of April 2009."May 22 14:44
taconeand they removed the rickrollMay 22 14:44
schestowitzFOSS people in parliament use this to pressure themMay 22 14:44
schestowitz"I am out of the office from the 6th of April 2009 to the 20th of April 2009."May 22 14:45
schestowitz"European Commission - DG Information Society and Media"May 22 14:45
schestowitzYou'd think the European Commission would be supportive of FOSSMay 22 14:45
schestowitzNot just apprehensive wrt MSMay 22 14:45
oiaohmI would not be supprised if that nokia leak is not coping MS leaks.May 22 14:51
oiaohmits still a good marketing stunt.May 22 14:51
schestowitztacone: I've just mailed them againMay 22 14:52
schestowitzNext stop: OmbudsmanMay 22 14:53
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schestowitzYahoo! wants some social networks: 22 14:56
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*mib_breo3p is now known as Ap0g33May 22 14:56
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taconethey failed building any.May 22 15:05
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schestowitztacone: did they try?May 22 15:05
schestowitzMS failed tooMay 22 15:05
schestowitzWhat was it even called?May 22 15:06
schestowitzI can't remember nowMay 22 15:06
schestowitzIt was spammed since day 1May 22 15:06
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taconedunnoMay 22 15:06
schestowitzIs Digg still a worth target for anyone? it's decliningMay 22 15:06
schestowitzI no longer use it mucMay 22 15:06
schestowitz*muchMay 22 15:06
taconeit sucksMay 22 15:07
taconei do much better with redditMay 22 15:07
taconeeven fsdaily brings more than diggMay 22 15:07
schestowitz Obama plans more open government What does open mean? He hides ACTA.May 22 15:07
taconebrbMay 22 15:08
MinceRdigg is a forum for crApple cultists.May 22 15:08
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schestowitztacone: fsdaily unless FP, right?May 22 15:08
schestowitzDigg's FP is a knockerMay 22 15:08
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schestowitz Pornographic videos flood YouTube < >May 22 15:08
schestowitzDoes that go under bad news or good news?May 22 15:09
MinceRit goes under "so what?" :>May 22 15:09
MinceRpr0n has always been easy to findMay 22 15:09
DaemonFCI'm writing an open letter to Live :PMay 22 15:09
schestowitzThis could be an attempt to put YT in blacklistsMay 22 15:10
MinceRlike they say, "the internet is for porn"May 22 15:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: open letter to dieMay 22 15:10
DaemonFCno, the internet is for porn advertising malwareMay 22 15:10
schestowitzAka "suicide letter"May 22 15:10
DaemonFCautomatically forwarding itself over Windows Live MessengerMay 22 15:10
DaemonFCbut then since so many people have Yahoo contacts in it too, it gets over onto their networkMay 22 15:10
DaemonFCso even if you use Pidgin you get spammed eventuallyMay 22 15:11
schestowitzUK 'worst electrical recycler' < >May 22 15:11
schestowitzSomeone just sent me this:May 22 15:11
schestowitz"See this registered charity, they donate 'free' computers to the third world. Except they charge a 'handling' fee of £42.00 per PC plus shipping charge of £72 per PC. That's £19,705 for a 40ft container. This is surprising as they get the PCs for free and the refurbishment is done by people on the dole, who are paid £10:00 a day expenses. It don't sound very free to me." 22 15:11
schestowitzIt says: "We charge a handling fee of £42 plus shipping per computer to recover our costs"May 22 15:11
schestowitzRe: "So, on the day, the average worker would refurbish 5 to 10 PCs (yes), so that's £204 worth of computers at £10 a time for the worker. It's not as if this money is going on the workers. Most of it is going on the salaries of the 22 staff members, who never put in an appearance in the workshop."May 22 15:12
schestowitz"Computer Aid International is, however, a Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher, which allows us to install a Microsoft Windows 2000 or XP licensed operating system only at a cost of £10.00 per machine"May 22 15:12
schestowitzHehe. "Microsoft Authorised Refurbisher"May 22 15:12
schestowitzDumpersMay 22 15:12
DaemonFCschestowitz: Microsoft was partially fundingthose "Free PC with internet contract" deals at Best Buy back about 10 years agoMay 22 15:12
schestowitzGet a load of this, they charge £10 a time for installing Ubuntu Linux: "We can also provide Ubuntu Linux and Open Office open source software (operating system and applications). If supplied on CD-ROM this is free. To pre-install on hard drives we charge £10.00 per PC. Please ask if you require this service" 22 15:12
DaemonFCI signed up for one and formatted the disk :PMay 22 15:12
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schestowitzHahaMay 22 15:12
DaemonFCthey shipped with all kinds of advertisements and whorebars :PMay 22 15:12
schestowitzThey offer welfareMay 22 15:12
schestowitzVista for $5 to ebayMay 22 15:13
schestowitzMore 'free' computers for AfricaMay 22 15:13
schestowitzThere's a real issue hreMay 22 15:13
schestowitzThe society is centred on wrong costsMay 22 15:13
schestowitzLike polluitonMay 22 15:13
schestowitzIt it's expensive to cut down pollution, it won't happenMay 22 15:13
schestowitzBecause the formulation of success accounts NEVER for factors other than raw profitMay 22 15:14
schestowitzSo currency can be changedMay 22 15:14
DaemonFCI dunno, on one hand they standardized the industry on the PC which arguably brought costs for the hardware down, but now they've filled in the savings and then some by how much they charge for WindowsMay 22 15:14
schestowitzTo something that accounts for other things too. This way, with different goals, means to an end vary tooMay 22 15:14
DaemonFCplus who knows what would have emerged from the 10 incompatible computer systems in the 80'sMay 22 15:14
DaemonFCwithout them :PMay 22 15:14
DaemonFCpossibly Mac, possibly CommodoreMay 22 15:14
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*DaemonFC really really liked CommodoreMay 22 15:15
DaemonFCI had a Commodore 64, 128, and an AmigaMay 22 15:15
DaemonFCthen I wound up with a PC running DOS/Win 3.1 and was like "WTF do you do with it?"May 22 15:15
*trmanco says: open a bunch of useless windowsMay 22 15:16
trmancoand play the never ending free skiMay 22 15:16
MinceRset wallpaper and colors ;)May 22 15:16
DaemonFCheh, everyone at that point had a DOS, I ended up with DR-DOSMay 22 15:16
MinceRfind a replacement to Program Manager that isn't a total pain to use; then wonder why printing has brokenMay 22 15:17
trmancohehMay 22 15:17
DaemonFCCentral Point DesktopMay 22 15:17
trmancoCPDMay 22 15:17
DaemonFCit helped, but it was still Windows 3.1 :PMay 22 15:17
MinceRi used Wayfarer and Plug-In for WindowsMay 22 15:18
DaemonFCyou still had to drop to DOS to do anything usefulMay 22 15:18
MinceRthen i dropped Wayfarer when i realized it broke printingMay 22 15:18
DaemonFClots of people just deleted WindowsMay 22 15:19
DaemonFCbecause it was taking hard disk spaceMay 22 15:19
schestowitzHeh. "With all the sillyness that goes on in the corridors of power in the EU (software patents, document format wars, 'net neutrality', antitrust wrangling from MS and Intel, etc.) this is a really live issue and it would be great to reach as many people as we can."May 22 15:19
DaemonFCthey like to call 3.1 a runaway hit with record sales cause they forced it on youMay 22 15:20
DaemonFCwhether you had a use for it or notMay 22 15:20
MinceRand history repeated itselfMay 22 15:20
DaemonFCwell, what happened was that Win 3.1 was so primitive and useless, everyone just kept making stuff for DOSMay 22 15:21
DaemonFCMS tried to solve that with things like Win32's and WinG (precursor to DirectX), but nothing workedMay 22 15:21
DaemonFCthe first notable game for Windows was The Lion King and WinG was incompatible with a lot of video adapters, so they game would simply crashMay 22 15:22
Omar871Ughh!! Although I love Firefox so much, but when it crashes... it makes me wanna snap my laptop into to pieces! ><May 22 15:23
Omar871two*May 22 15:23
DaemonFCFirefox heats up the laptopMay 22 15:23
DaemonFCmakes the fan run continuouslyMay 22 15:23
Omar871DaemonFC: Yeah, I agree!May 22 15:23
Omar871DaemonFC: But I guess, what really makes so heavy are add-ons.May 22 15:24
Omar871makes *it*May 22 15:24
DaemonFConly thing I had was Adblock PlusMay 22 15:24
DaemonFCbelieve me, I'm not trying to overload the poor thingMay 22 15:24
DaemonFCI eventually tried that PC-BSD which runs fairly well, even with KDE, which is nothing short of amazingMay 22 15:25
DaemonFCbut it takes a little work to make it Linux-compatibleMay 22 15:25
DaemonFCyou're stuck at Flash 7 unless you use the Linuxulator with a Linux web browser and Linux FlashMay 22 15:26
DaemonFCthey base their Linux simulation on RHEL, FreeBSD 7 is THEL 4 compatible, version 8 will be RHEL 5 compatibleMay 22 15:28
DaemonFC*RHELMay 22 15:28
schestowitzUK move to FOSS today: "I've been asked to help with a campaign to ask MEP candidates to support Free and Open Source Software in the rapidly approaching European elections. I've agreed to be a spokesperson for the UK..."May 22 15:28
schestowitztacone: post comingMay 22 15:28
DaemonFCschestowitz: Weren't people there getting pissed at the government for using Windows Media formats or something?May 22 15:29
taconesigh, my last post was not only cloned, but that copypaste went on linuxtodayMay 22 15:29
taconei'm wondering if i should start to put some policy in place.May 22 15:29
DaemonFCpeople will rip you offMay 22 15:29
DaemonFCyou can still demand that they take it downMay 22 15:30
DaemonFCbut I usually won'tMay 22 15:30
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DaemonFCheh, "XP Antivirus malware has changed names to MS Antivirus" to confuse more people into running itMay 22 15:40
DaemonFCGoogle is still advertising it as usualMay 22 15:40
DaemonFC 22 15:40
DaemonFCjust another reason to not trust adwordsMay 22 15:40
MinceRor googleMay 22 15:40
*mib_wb17sg is now known as Ap0g33May 22 15:41
DaemonFCgood pointMay 22 15:41
DaemonFCI've got Seamonkey locked down enough that the great majority of attacks simply won't workMay 22 15:42
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DaemonFCmost of them try to install themselves through advertisements and nearly all of them need scripting or Flash or JAVA enabledMay 22 15:43
DaemonFCaccording to leaked data from the malicious "XP Antivirus"'s "affiliate program", their most successful affiliate made over $158,000 a weekMay 22 15:45
DaemonFCto push infestations onto Windows usersMay 22 15:45
DaemonFCso you can only imagine what the criminals behind the operation are taking inMay 22 15:46
DaemonFCit's probably based in Russia or somethingMay 22 15:46
DaemonFCsomewhere where the authorities will never shut them downMay 22 15:46
schestowitz2 Months and No Disclosure from the European Parliament < >May 22 15:48
DaemonFChmm, it looks like the people behind it are Americans paying people in Ukraine and BelizeMay 22 15:48
DaemonFCto actually run the operation for themMay 22 15:48
schestowitzDaemonFC: yes, Windows media thereMay 22 15:49
DaemonFCyeah, the anti-spyware laws tend to be effective at punishing Americans that do this stuffMay 22 15:50
DaemonFCwhich is why they're paying frontmen in other countriesMay 22 15:51
DaemonFCand it goes right onMay 22 15:51
DaemonFCI've been asking our state senator from this district to introduce anti-apyware legislationMay 22 15:52
DaemonFCbut so far no good :PMay 22 15:52
DaemonFCas part of my last job I routinely found spyware on customers computers, I got tired of trying to get rid of it all and just started re-imaging the drivesMay 22 15:54
DaemonFCtrying to get rid of it all can take hours and you can never be sure you got all of itMay 22 15:54
schestowitzSA 'wants to export ubuntu' <,,2-7-12_2519991,00.html >. Not the OSMay 22 15:54
DaemonFConce any of it gets in and sets up shop, game over, you loseMay 22 15:55
DaemonFCwhich is why I'll never know why anyone wants to have thousands of systems that are all vulnerable :PMay 22 15:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: I was making more money cleaning up spyware off corporate networks than the people that put it there :)May 22 15:56
DaemonFCHow's that for obscene?May 22 15:56
schestowitzCharlies combined two of his passions :-) 22 15:57
DaemonFCif they ever stopped Windows or the spyware from attacking Windows, I know for sure that tens of thousands of people that make their whole living cleaning it off would be out of a jobMay 22 15:57
DaemonFCWho the hell drinks Everclear?May 22 15:58
DaemonFCWho the hell would be alert enough after a few shots of it to work on anything?May 22 15:59
DaemonFCI call BSMay 22 15:59
DaemonFCoh waitMay 22 16:00
DaemonFChmmmMay 22 16:00
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DaemonFCI bumped up my 1.86 Ghz Core 2 Duo to 2.33 GhzMay 22 16:01
DaemonFCthat count?May 22 16:01
DaemonFChehMay 22 16:01
schestowitzTo tell w/ Lenovo: Lenovo's sales, profit fell in Q1 < >May 22 16:01
schestowitzThose who suck don't surviveMay 22 16:01
DaemonFCI probably could have gotten moreMay 22 16:01
DaemonFCdecided not toMay 22 16:01
schestowitzUnder moderate doses binging won't hurt moddingMay 22 16:02
schestowitzEurope: as de Raadt put it (re: Intel), "open... for BUSINESS"May 22 16:03
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DaemonFCschestowitz: 22 16:04
DaemonFClmaoMay 22 16:04
DaemonFC"Can I install this virus on Vista? I already paid $50 for it and would haqte to waste my money!"May 22 16:05
DaemonFCWhat is wrong with people?May 22 16:05
DaemonFC*hateMay 22 16:05
DaemonFCthese people make me scaredMay 22 16:08
schestowitzObama is open... to scrutiny; he would be better off close... to public needs.May 22 16:12
Grommetthat is scary, where do they get vista for $50May 22 16:12
DaemonFCno, the rogue antivirus programMay 22 16:12
DaemonFCshe paid $50 for itMay 22 16:12
schestowitzThat's extortionateMay 22 16:12
DaemonFC:PMay 22 16:13
schestowitzCDs don't cost $50May 22 16:13
schestowitzNot even DVDsMay 22 16:13
schestowitzThat's a helluva lot of money for wallpapersMay 22 16:13
GrommetlolMay 22 16:13
schestowitzAnd some junk binaries that act as malware magnets if runMay 22 16:13
schestowitzThis again: Yahoo to buy into social media? < > Is Yahoo not dead yet? ;-)May 22 16:14
DaemonFCwell, these things mainly ask the user if they can installMay 22 16:14
DaemonFCthat's what makes them so funnyMay 22 16:14
schestowitzPeace = terrorism (Police wrong to spy on peace campaigner) "war is peace..."May 22 16:26
schestowitz "The video site has a zero-tolerance to nudity on the site - footage of doctors demonstrating breast examinations have famously been removed in the past, while footage of Saddam Hussein's death by hanging is still available. "May 22 16:28
schestowitzMicrosoft bails out of European competition hearing < >May 22 16:28
DaemonFCstalling?May 22 16:32
schestowitzGlobe’s Oldest Blogger Dies At 97 <’s-oldest-blogger-dies-at-97 >May 22 16:35
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schestowitzDaemonFC: stalling in what sense?May 22 16:44
schestowitzSorry, been on the phone for hoursMay 22 16:44
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schestowitz"Looks like netbooks are going to accomplish CPU diversity at last. Since Linux supports pretty much any available processor, it looks really good." 22 16:55
Grommetppl are still buying netbooks?May 22 16:56
schestowitzSome mightMay 22 16:57
DaemonFCstalling as in hoping if they don't cooperate then it will slow the EU down long enough for them to get Windows 7 out as isMay 22 16:57
schestowitzYes, that's what I reckonMay 22 17:02
schestowitzQuit X! screen-vs is more fun! < >May 22 17:03
*liberfiasco is now known as liberviscoMay 22 17:03
schestowitzAre are people fighting for affinity from well-dressed shills for hire? (Forrester) 22 17:09
schestowitz Does that affect computers or just those running the malware called Microsoft Windows?May 22 17:12
DaemonFCif they start putting Linux on everything by default, it doesn't change the fact that users are still easy to deceiveMay 22 17:18
DaemonFCyou'd still have the lady that was unaware she spent $50 on a computer virusMay 22 17:18
GrommetyeahMay 22 17:19
DaemonFConly she'd be on Linux and running the same kind of stuffMay 22 17:19
Grommetand windows is used to being the targetMay 22 17:19
DaemonFCwell, all kinds of users end up with WindowsMay 22 17:19
DaemonFConly a few choose LinuxMay 22 17:20
DaemonFCso you don't really have a representative sample of the market on LinuxMay 22 17:20
DaemonFCmy point is that if you did, then there's nothing stopping a user from voluntarily running deceptive softwareMay 22 17:20
DaemonFCand security holes affecting Linux get patched in things like Firefox tooMay 22 17:20
DaemonFCso I'm sure that while harder to simply break in, there would be more than a few users that let it inMay 22 17:21
DaemonFCand there are a lot of really clever people that write computer viruses, I'm certain they'd think of somethingMay 22 17:21
schestowitzReplicating viruses?May 22 17:22
schestowitzHow?May 22 17:22
schestowitzE-mail attachment?May 22 17:23
DaemonFCever since Yahoo opened that Yahoo Answers thing, you see all the dumbest people asking questions thereMay 22 17:23
schestowitzIt's not click to runMay 22 17:23
schestowitzHaha. "@schestowitz: Obama is a very illusive president. At least with the Bush administration it was more clearer what their objectives were."May 22 17:23
DaemonFCyou could hide malicious actions as part of a standard RPM/DEB fileMay 22 17:23
DaemonFCand once it's running elevated, there you goMay 22 17:24
schestowitzLobby for no-bulls* Obama. Have him say the truthMay 22 17:24
schestowitz"Wanted dead and alive... bribe it on.... nukeelar missiles..."May 22 17:24
DaemonFCuhhhmMay 22 17:24
DaemonFCelusiveMay 22 17:24
DaemonFCmore clearMay 22 17:24
DaemonFCor clearerMay 22 17:24
DaemonFC:)May 22 17:24
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DaemonFCutorrent's website is downMay 22 17:25
DaemonFC"It's not just you! looks down from here."May 22 17:26
DaemonFC:PMay 22 17:26
DaemonFC 22 17:26
DaemonFCheheheMay 22 17:26
schestowitzReason?May 22 17:27
schestowitzWe had a DDoS on us a short while ago. I scared it away with tessier's criptMay 22 17:27
DaemonFCwho knowsMay 22 17:28
Omar871Guys where in FSDaily do you think I should publish this post: ?May 22 17:28
schestowitzOmar871: it's from Microsoft Shill OnealMay 22 17:29
schestowitzNielMay 22 17:29
Omar871schestowitz: Regardless, it's a good post.May 22 17:30
schestowitzWhen two MSFTers say Microsoft is doomed I look suspiciously and cautiously.May 22 17:30
Omar871schestowitz: Screw "Shill" O'Neill, Keith Curtis ROCKS!!May 22 17:30
schestowitzOmar871: go aheadMay 22 17:30
Omar871schestowitz: Not when one of them emphasizes that he's a Linux guru.May 22 17:31
Omar871schestowitz: No, I meant in which section? Business or  Community?May 22 17:31
schestowitzGuru?May 22 17:31
schestowitzNone of them isMay 22 17:32
Omar871schestowitz: YupMay 22 17:32
schestowitzThe Shill (ONiel) never even tried the thing AFAIKMay 22 17:32
Omar871schestowitz: Keith Curtis is.May 22 17:32
schestowitzOmar871: doesn't matter which section. Put the URL here, though. I'd support itMay 22 17:32
schestowitzOmar871: he's new to itMay 22 17:32
Omar871From the post---> "Oh yeah, Curtis is not afraid to speak his mind as a Linux guru,    either. "May 22 17:33
Omar871schestowitz: Article posted. :)May 22 17:34
Omar871In the Business section.May 22 17:34
DaemonFCA known trojan exploiting a vulnerability involving Apple Remote Desktop started to be distributed via LimeWire in mid 2008. It affects users of Mac OS X Tiger and Leopard.[7]May 22 17:35
DaemonFClmaoMay 22 17:35
Omar871lolMay 22 17:35
Omar871DaemonFC: Amazing.May 22 17:36
schestowitzOmar871: just because of Softie said it about another doesn't mean guruismMay 22 17:37
schestowitzMaybe I'm wrong, but I digress. He's still quite new to it.May 22 17:37
schestowitzHere's is the "paranoid side" of one's mind:May 22 17:37
schestowitzMicrosoft loves sending out self-appointed FOSS 'gurus'May 22 17:38
schestowitzPeople like Ramji, who are from proprietary sw companiesMay 22 17:38
schestowitzThey don't even know SIMPLE things like how the GPL workMay 22 17:38
schestowitz*worksMay 22 17:38
Omar871schestowitz: Regardless, I still believe that his presence as an Ex-Microsoftie in the FOSS world can be a great asset to us.May 22 17:38
schestowitzThey just infiltrate the community and can do all sorts of damageMay 22 17:39
schestowitzLike that Levy guy and his Black Duck Software BSMay 22 17:39
schestowitzProprietary sw leeching off FOSS and off PalamidaMay 22 17:39
schestowitzThen bring in Microsoft to FOSSMay 22 17:39
schestowitzOmar871: we shall live and see.May 22 17:39
schestowitzHe has friends at MicrosoftMay 22 17:39
schestowitzFormer colleaguesMay 22 17:39
Omar871schestowitz: YupMay 22 17:39
schestowitzHe's loyal to them tooMay 22 17:39
tessierschestowitz: How's the new machine doing?May 22 17:40
tessierA short DOS eh?May 22 17:40
Omar871schestowitz: This doesn't really matter, does it?May 22 17:40
tessierThe firewall rules are in place so hopefully it passed quickly.May 22 17:40
Omar871schestowitz: Plus, and this is really important, paranoia will never get us anywhere.May 22 17:40
schestowitzPalin Email Hacker Says Emails Were Public Record... So No Crime? < >May 22 17:42
schestowitztessier: ayeMay 22 17:42
schestowitzShort oneMay 22 17:42
schestowitzI ran the firewal.shMay 22 17:42
schestowitzI ran the scriptMay 22 17:42
schestowitzThen id died outMay 22 17:42
tessierIn fact it probably would have been a much longer script had it not been for the firewall stuffMay 22 17:42
schestowitzMaybe not related to itMay 22 17:42
tessierActually I ran that script last night. No need to run it again.May 22 17:42
schestowitzI thought soMay 22 17:42
tessierThat script puts firewall rules in place which filter the attack automaticallyMay 22 17:42
tessierI do need to put the script in the init scripts so it happens automatically though...May 22 17:43
schestowitztessier: the new machine is greatMay 22 17:43
tessierRight now I would have to run it manually after a reboot.May 22 17:43
schestowitzI checked files one by one (sort of) to see if the old server (before DDOS) is identical.May 22 17:43
tessierCool. Don't forget you have root via sudo now so you can look at the logs or whatever.May 22 17:43
schestowitzI found the logsMay 22 17:43
schestowitzI parse them locallyMay 22 17:43
schestowitzWe lost some traffic due to downtimes (Google and all), but can regain itMay 22 17:44
schestowitztessier: ever used Urchin? It's HUGEMay 22 17:44
schestowitzI took the old logs off the account (March-May) to compact the home dir.May 22 17:45
schestowitzMay 1-14 was 50 MB compressedMay 22 17:45
tessierI know one of the guys who wrote urchin originally.May 22 17:45
schestowitztessier: made money from Google takeover, eh?May 22 17:46
tessierNot sure.May 22 17:46
tessierProbablyMay 22 17:46
schestowitzI don't think they disclosed amountMay 22 17:46
schestowitzLet me checkMay 22 17:46
schestowitz 22 17:47
schestowitz"Battellemedia heard the price on the purchase was in the ballpark of $30 million."May 22 17:47
schestowitz 22 17:51
schestowitzDifferent Berman in the news: (Howard Berman Looks To Send More Hated US IP Cops Around The Globe)May 22 17:51
schestowitzStudent Who Witnessed Murder Trying To Use Journalism Shield Law < >May 22 17:52
schestowitzAs the human species expands, little room is left to evolution's wonders 22 17:53
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schestowitzThis is funny. I call Forrester "shills for hire" in twitter and now they 'follow' me (just minutes later). "Forrester Research (forrester) is now following your updates on Twitter."May 22 17:55
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schestowitztessier: let me know when you want some banner added for yourselfMay 22 17:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: THe Mormons are advertising on the Sci Fi Channel nowMay 22 17:56
DaemonFC:)May 22 17:57
schestowitzMatt Asay is a mormonMay 22 17:57
schestowitzPeople associate it wrongly with polygamyMay 22 17:57
MinceRs/rm/r/May 22 17:57
MinceR:>May 22 17:57
DaemonFCyeah, they're just bigotsMay 22 17:57
schestowitzMinceR: heheMay 22 17:57
schestowitzhe won't understand sedMay 22 17:58
DaemonFC 22 17:58
schestowitzA lot of Novell employees are Mormons too if that mattersMay 22 17:58
DaemonFC:)May 22 17:58
DaemonFCoh you're just saying that so I'll dislike them moreMay 22 17:58
DaemonFC:DMay 22 17:58
schestowitzOh, Asay too was a Novell employeeMay 22 17:58
schestowitzLauren Hill: That ThingMay 22 17:59
DaemonFCthat game runs perfectly on WineMay 22 17:59
DaemonFC:)May 22 17:59
mib_mqmao7Hi Roy, this is chips, I did not see a way to add my name this timeMay 22 18:00
MinceRschestowitz: i don't expect him to, he's a crApple cultist :>May 22 18:01
mib_mqmao7Roy, was Goblin able to send you the information?May 22 18:01
DaemonFCmeh, I collect operating systemsMay 22 18:01
DaemonFCgood to know them I supposeMay 22 18:01
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DaemonFCNovell actually has more C# in their OS than Windows VistaMay 22 18:02
DaemonFC:PMay 22 18:02
DaemonFCthe interesting thing about C# is that there are ways to view the source easily, even if it hasn't been open sourcedMay 22 18:03
DaemonFCI would assume it would be easier to allege impropriety if you developed something similarMay 22 18:03
Omar871 22 18:04
DaemonFCI don't know about killMay 22 18:04
DaemonFCbut it will make them much smallerMay 22 18:04
DaemonFCmaybe rethink their hostilityMay 22 18:05
schestowitztessier: is an outgoing mail server possible to enable on the VM? WordPress sends out notifications by mail.May 22 18:05
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: chips?May 22 18:06
mib_lvp5djyesMay 22 18:06
schestowitzGoblin wasn't hereMay 22 18:06
schestowitzDo you know who attacks the site?May 22 18:06
mib_lvp5dji pm you a file on the ddosMay 22 18:06
mib_lvp5djits in there, I think soMay 22 18:06
DaemonFCif they have that much bandwidth, it's probably someone controlling a bunch of botnet virus-infected PCsMay 22 18:07
mib_lvp5djI could be wrong, you decideMay 22 18:07
DaemonFCConficker is still gobbling up 50,000 PCs per dayMay 22 18:08
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: thanks, savedMay 22 18:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: says who?May 22 18:10
schestowitzSymantec?May 22 18:10
DaemonFCyeahMay 22 18:10
schestowitzMaybe it's moreMay 22 18:10
schestowitzMaybe lessMay 22 18:10
DaemonFCthat's still an arming figureMay 22 18:11
schestowitzThey are a business, not a convoy for answersMay 22 18:11
DaemonFCwith that many PCs it'll soon be the biggest botnet everMay 22 18:11
schestowitzDaemonFC: not reallyMay 22 18:11
schestowitz99% of Windows (or 98%) is vulnerableMay 22 18:11
DaemonFCthere are multiple varients, if you know how they work you can protect against themMay 22 18:12
schestowitzSecunia, 98.1% Of All Windows Users Unpatched < >May 22 18:12
DaemonFCone exploits the RPC server bug that was patched last monthMay 22 18:12
DaemonFCone exploits a bug from NovemberMay 22 18:12
DaemonFCone launches itself from USB keys using AutoRunMay 22 18:12
DaemonFCmine is patchedMay 22 18:13
DaemonFCbut yeah, a lot of people disable auto updatesMay 22 18:13
tessierschestowitz: Yes. I will configure an outgoing mail server...May 22 18:13
DaemonFCmostly because they're using pirate Windows and that's one way Microsoft can shut it downMay 22 18:13
tessierDaemonFC: Auto-updates are funny and dangerous.May 22 18:13
DaemonFCand that post is from SeptemberMay 22 18:13
mib_lvp5djactually the conflicker that infects from usb, does not even need autorun, it will still infected, even patched when u open that infected flash drive.  Unless and antivirus catches itMay 22 18:14
tessierDaemonFC: A couple of months ago one of my colleagues burned a Linux distro on his Windows machine and left it in the CD ROM drive.May 22 18:14
tessierDaemonFC: He did that on a Monday. Then he went home.May 22 18:14
tessierDaemonFC: Guess what? The next day was Patch Tuesday.May 22 18:14
tessierHis Windows box auto-updated, rebooted, CD ROM was set to boot first in the BIOS, and the CD ROM (which had a kickstart file on it, the install-CD for our appliance OS) installed itself over his Windows box.May 22 18:15
DaemonFCI don't load unscanned USB sticks anywayMay 22 18:15
DaemonFCuhhhmMay 22 18:15
schestowitztessier: thanks!May 22 18:15
DaemonFCunattended installer?May 22 18:15
schestowitzIt's like in a filmMay 22 18:15
schestowitzWith brooms dancing all nightMay 22 18:16
schestowitzSecunia, 98.1% Of All Windows Users Unpatched < >May 22 18:16
schestowitzOops.May 22 18:16
schestowitzdisney fantasia The Sorcerer's Apprentice with Mickey < >May 22 18:17
DaemonFCthere are no post-sp2 updates yetMay 22 18:17
DaemonFCjust Windows Defender signaturesMay 22 18:18
DaemonFCmakes me wonder if I'm unpatched for anything yet :PMay 22 18:19
mib_lvp5djI have only one XP installation left on an old 16g drive.  But do have several in Virtualbox that I use, those do not have all the sercurity features installed, as I only use one program with XP in a VMMay 22 18:19
mib_lvp5djIt takes me a full day to setup xp with an intergrated slipstream cdMay 22 18:20
tessierDaemonFC: Yes, unattended installer. That's the whole point of kickstartMay 22 18:21
DaemonFCmaking an integrated XP disc is a pain in the assMay 22 18:21
*schestowitz never installed a Windows later than Win98 (from QuickRestore CD)May 22 18:21
mib_lvp5djto get the security into something halfway reasonableMay 22 18:21
DaemonFCmaking an integrated Vista disc is not possibleMay 22 18:21
schestowitztessier: there was a similar real storyMay 22 18:21
schestowitzA Mandriva guyMay 22 18:21
schestowitzLet me searchMay 22 18:22
schestowitzActually, I once tried installing Win2000 and it failedMay 22 18:22
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, Vista will never touch my machines, i just not into painMay 22 18:22
schestowitz(Way back when it was new)May 22 18:22
DaemonFCWindows 2000 was pretty easy to installMay 22 18:22
schestowitz(it lacked driver)May 22 18:22
schestowitzThere was win98 on some laptopMay 22 18:23
schestowitzFrom last decadeMay 22 18:23
DaemonFCyeah, you need to assemble a drivers discMay 22 18:23
DaemonFCburn them to a CD-RMay 22 18:23
DaemonFCor put them on a USB keyMay 22 18:23
mib_lvp5djsome hardware would never get those driversMay 22 18:23
DaemonFCthose restore discs usualyl have drivers for everything they shipped your system withMay 22 18:24
mib_lvp5djwindows is famous to obsoleting hardware with new windows versionsMay 22 18:24
DaemonFCyou can do the same thing with integration utilitiesMay 22 18:24
DaemonFCWindows doesn't reallyMay 22 18:24
DaemonFCif there's a driver it will work, the company that made the device makes the driversMay 22 18:24
DaemonFC(or doesn't)May 22 18:24
mib_lvp5djif you had a machine that ran on 98, that does not mean there will be drivers for 2000 or xpMay 22 18:25
DaemonFCright, cause Microsoft doesn't make the driversMay 22 18:25
DaemonFCand sometimes the earlier version's driver runs on the new versionMay 22 18:25
DaemonFCsometimes it doesn'tMay 22 18:25
mib_lvp5djand niether will the manufacturers, always provide an updated driverMay 22 18:25
DaemonFCthat's what I meanMay 22 18:26
DaemonFCcause they want to sell you more shitMay 22 18:26
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DaemonFCbest way to do it is not make a new driverMay 22 18:26
mib_lvp5djused to buy components out of a dollar junkbox at the computer stores for a long time, almost always they worked, but mostly they did not have the driversMay 22 18:26
mib_lvp5djfor 2000 and xpMay 22 18:27
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, agreedMay 22 18:27
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DaemonFCHP and Creative are the worstMay 22 18:28
DaemonFCabout thatMay 22 18:28
mib_lvp5djstill, its an expensive lession for the public when M$ changes its driver model so often with new windows releasesMay 22 18:28
DaemonFCbut you also need proprietary drivers for Linux to use the Creative X-FiMay 22 18:28
DaemonFCand they're buggy as hellMay 22 18:28
DaemonFCso the same thing can happen to LinuxMay 22 18:29
DaemonFCwith devices "dropped" because of no drivers for the new kernelMay 22 18:29
schestowitzI didn't know Kohei had a blog... 22 18:29
mib_lvp5djbelieve Creative X-fi had a major bug problem with it Vista drivers too when releasedMay 22 18:30
schestowitzYesMay 22 18:30
schestowitzSome guy hacked on itMay 22 18:30
schestowitzThe hunted by CreativeMay 22 18:30
mib_lvp5djyes, it was a scandelMay 22 18:30
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schestowitz 22 18:31
schestowitz 22 18:31
schestowitzWhy Vista sounds worse 22 18:31
schestowitz 22 18:31
mib_lvp5djsounded like they wanted users to buy the next version of soundblasterMay 22 18:31
schestowitzUsers?May 22 18:32
schestowitzOr customers?May 22 18:32
schestowitzThis is h/wMay 22 18:32
mib_lvp5djyesMay 22 18:32
schestowitzCreative developer a bad name for itselfMay 22 18:32
mib_lvp5djcustomersMay 22 18:32
mib_lvp5djlast board I got was a soundblaster liveMay 22 18:33
mib_lvp5djno moreMay 22 18:33
mib_lvp5djjust look at how Vista with its protected video pipeline bs, (drm) has obsoleted almost every TV card madeMay 22 18:34
DaemonFCit's not really Vista's fault on that accountMay 22 18:35
DaemonFCCreative makes shit driversMay 22 18:36
DaemonFCand drops them every chance they get to sell you identical hardwareMay 22 18:36
mib_lvp5djnot that digital tv in some way was not going to do anyway, but still you could use a digital converter box with those old tv cards to extend themMay 22 18:36
DaemonFCwith new driversMay 22 18:36
DaemonFCfuck themMay 22 18:36
DaemonFCthey sold me their last device with that webcamMay 22 18:36
DaemonFCthey rolled out that webcam I bought right before Vista launched then never made a Vista driver, so I had to hack on the XP oneMay 22 18:37
DaemonFCat least Logitech says there will be a Windows 7 driverMay 22 18:37
DaemonFCI mean, Creative doesn't even stand behind products that are only a year oldMay 22 18:37
DaemonFCthat doesn't say much about themMay 22 18:37
mib_lvp5djI will never buy from creative again, its not really the same company anymoreMay 22 18:38
mib_lvp5djRoy made a good point about no windows 2000 driver for his 98 laptop.  It about all the hardware that M$ leaves as orphans, with no drivers.  They did it in a major way with printers in VistaMay 22 18:39
DaemonFCthey don't orphan anythingMay 22 18:40
DaemonFCthe company that makes the drivers doesMay 22 18:40
mib_lvp5djno they just moved onMay 22 18:40
DaemonFCif there were WDM drivers for 98May 22 18:40
DaemonFCthey will work with Windows 2000May 22 18:40
mib_lvp5djnot allMay 22 18:41
schestowitzCompanies sometimes supply the driver to the platformMay 22 18:41
schestowitzWorks well for LnuxMay 22 18:41
schestowitz*LinuxMay 22 18:41
DaemonFCthe driver model changes sometimes, but the companies that want to sell you new hardware never make a new driverMay 22 18:41
schestowitzSo Microsoft's excuses are fewMay 22 18:41
*schestowitz taking off, back in 2 hoursMay 22 18:41
DaemonFCno, HP only open sources their printer drivers for LinuxMay 22 18:41
DaemonFCtheir Windows ones are proprietaryMay 22 18:42
DaemonFCall MS is licensed to do is redistributeMay 22 18:42
DaemonFCthey want their printers to be more popular, that's why they release Linux driversMay 22 18:42
mib_lvp5djMS does make some drivers, or uses the companies drivers on their install diskMay 22 18:42
DaemonFCand the printers themselves are rigged anywayMay 22 18:42
DaemonFCthe printers have a limit set to how many pages they can printMay 22 18:43
tessierJudge Reviewing Pirate Bay Trial Bias Is RemovedMay 22 18:43
tessierWoohoo!May 22 18:43
mib_lvp5djCompanies themselves may go out of business between windows releases, so once the drivers change, if you cannot use the old windows driver, you may be out of luckMay 22 18:43
DaemonFCthe one that convicted them was removed?May 22 18:43
DaemonFCyeah, but that's not Microsoft's faultMay 22 18:43
mib_lvp5djits M$ fault for changing the driver model so oftenMay 22 18:44
DaemonFCwhat are they supposed to do? Never improve the driver model so that 15 year old hardware from Windows 95 all works?May 22 18:44
tessierNo, not the one that convicted him.May 22 18:44
tessierThe one reviewing the's weird.May 22 18:44
mib_lvp5djM$ changes the driver model every other releaseMay 22 18:44
DaemonFCMicrosoft hadn't changed the driver model from Windows 98 to XPMay 22 18:44
DaemonFC98/Me/2000/XP can all use the same driversMay 22 18:45
DaemonFCbecause they all use WDMMay 22 18:45
DaemonFCVista can use WDM drivers except in cases of sound and video devicesMay 22 18:45
mib_lvp5djusually you can get most of them to work, that I would agree, but not allMay 22 18:45
DaemonFCbecause they reworked the god awful sound system of XP'sMay 22 18:45
mib_lvp5djbut its beyond that of what the average user knows how to do, DaemonFCMay 22 18:46
DaemonFCthe display drivers now use WDDM which allows for some neat new stuffMay 22 18:46
DaemonFClike for example, if the display driver crashes, the computer doesn't go downMay 22 18:46
DaemonFCI'd call 8 years of the same driver model pretty generousMay 22 18:47
mib_lvp5djand chopped up a mp3 that played well on an old 486, when vista first came outMay 22 18:47
DaemonFCyou don't even get that with Linux sometimes and never with the MacMay 22 18:47
mib_lvp5djdisagree that its 8 years of the same driver modelMay 22 18:48
mib_lvp5djno wayMay 22 18:48
DaemonFCVista has been a mixed bag wrt to drivers.May 22 18:48
DaemonFCever heard "To make an omelet you have to break some eggs"?May 22 18:48
mib_lvp5djscambledMay 22 18:48
DaemonFCthey can't support Windows 98 drivers foreverMay 22 18:48
DaemonFCmost, but not all of them, died with XPMay 22 18:48
mib_lvp5djor nt4, or 2000, or xp, or 2003May 22 18:49
DaemonFCI've ran Windows XP drivers on Windows 98May 22 18:49
DaemonFCand Windows 98 drivers on Windows 2000May 22 18:49
DaemonFCthey're pretty much interchangeableMay 22 18:49
mib_lvp5djyes, but you DaemonFC, are far beyond what the normal windows user can doMay 22 18:49
DaemonFCVista can also use XP network drivers in a pinchMay 22 18:49
DaemonFCthey won't work worse than they did on XPMay 22 18:49
DaemonFCbut you won't get NDIS 6May 22 18:50
DaemonFCit can also use XP video drivers, but then you only get DirectX 9 supportMay 22 18:50
mib_lvp5djyes, I have installed drivers in xp that worked in even 98, maybe half of them might work in some sort of crippled wayMay 22 18:51
DaemonFCI've gotten Vista to work with twin 3dfx Voodoo 2 5500'sMay 22 18:51
DaemonFCthat I bought in 2001May 22 18:51
DaemonFCusing Windows 2000 driversMay 22 18:51
DaemonFCerrrMay 22 18:51
DaemonFCVoodoo 5 5500 that isMay 22 18:51
mib_lvp5djno hdmi on those 3dfx voodoo?May 22 18:52
DaemonFCthey still work but you can't use AERO obviously and they only go as far as DirectX 8May 22 18:52
DaemonFCno, jsut VGAMay 22 18:52
mib_lvp5djahMay 22 18:52
mib_lvp5djso blueray movies are outMay 22 18:52
DaemonFClmaoMay 22 18:52
DaemonFCa lot of people were jsut getting DVD's when these were newMay 22 18:53
mib_lvp5djI stand by my statement, that the driver model in windows, is causing a lot of hardware orphans, and a lot of pain for some users of old hardwareMay 22 18:54
mib_lvp5djalso, windows 8 (not 7) will be another driver breaking releaseMay 22 18:54
mib_lvp5dj8 will be a major release as opposed to Seven which is the minorMay 22 18:55
DaemonFCpossiblyMay 22 18:55
mib_lvp5dj8 will still be based on NT, according to Mary Jo FolleyMay 22 18:55
DaemonFCbut you're looking probably 2013-2014?May 22 18:56
DaemonFCif it doesn't get delayed?May 22 18:56
mib_lvp5dj2011May 22 18:56
DaemonFCI doubt itMay 22 18:56
mib_lvp5djunless the EU delays itMay 22 18:56
mib_lvp5djevery 2 to 3 yearsMay 22 18:56
mib_lvp5djplanned, refer to S. Ballmers statementMay 22 18:57
mib_lvp5djhow else can they squeeze more out of the sick cowMay 22 18:57
MinceRnew skinMay 22 18:57
MinceRsome people fall for it every timeMay 22 18:58
mib_lvp5djyesMay 22 18:58
Balrog_mib_lvp5dj: that's the reason for the driver modelMay 22 18:59
Balrog_to break 'old' hardwareMay 22 18:59
DaemonFCnoMay 22 18:59
DaemonFCit happens faster with LinuxMay 22 19:00
DaemonFCjust try to use a decent sound card or TV tunerMay 22 19:00
mib_lvp5djBalrog, I remember M$ bragging to the OEM's that Vista would cause a surge in hardware sales.May 22 19:00
DaemonFCI'm betting Aver will give up soonMay 22 19:00
DaemonFCif they haven't alreadyMay 22 19:01
DaemonFCthat driver hasn't been maintained since a year agoMay 22 19:01
mib_lvp5djOEM's that are in trouble now, that are hitching to Seven, may not last the recessionMay 22 19:01
DaemonFCjerry rigging hardwareMay 22 19:01
DaemonFCno driver at allMay 22 19:01
DaemonFCor buy a new device in 5 yearsMay 22 19:01
trmanco 22 19:01
DaemonFC:)May 22 19:01
mib_lvp5djthe linux driver model, is far better than windows.May 22 19:03
DaemonFCit's not guaranteedMay 22 19:03
DaemonFCeven 3 months from now they break stuffMay 22 19:03
mib_lvp5djbut at first, driver support in linux was a big problemMay 22 19:03
DaemonFCthat's why nobody wants to support drivers for itMay 22 19:03
mib_lvp5djI would say the biggest problem right now, is dropping support for older hardware in linuxMay 22 19:03
DaemonFCI have plenty of stuff that doesn't work in LinuxMay 22 19:04
DaemonFCfrom game controllers to my TV tunerMay 22 19:04
mib_lvp5djin the kernel, you have to go back in some distro's and compile it yourselfMay 22 19:04
mib_lvp5djtv cards and scanners are still weak, but older tv cards are  better supported in linux than VistaMay 22 19:05
DaemonFC 22 19:06
DaemonFC:)May 22 19:06
DaemonFC 22 19:08
mib_lvp5djRoy, did you have a chance to read the PM yet?May 22 19:09
mib_lvp5djjust wondering if you found the information interestingMay 22 19:14
MinceRDaemonFC: welcome to the third millennium!May 22 19:18
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Balrog_schestowitz and MinceR: looks like Palm isn't doing too well to promote the pre : <>May 22 19:25
Balrog_"Palm Kills Community Before It Begins"May 22 19:25
Balrog_compare that to the iphone dev lists, that were around since the jailbreak days and are still around ... sometimes talking about iphone OS 3.0 evenMay 22 19:25
DaemonFCI got a Zune for $20 on ebayMay 22 19:30
DaemonFCpeople can't get rid of these thingsMay 22 19:30
DaemonFC:PMay 22 19:30
trmancololMay 22 19:30
DaemonFCit plays MP3 right? That's all I wantedMay 22 19:31
trmancotesting hotmail's pop3 serviceMay 22 19:31
trmancoit's slowMay 22 19:31
DaemonFCand it only lets you log in every 15 minutesMay 22 19:31
DaemonFCand they use non standard portsMay 22 19:31
DaemonFCand you have to use TLSMay 22 19:31
DaemonFC:)May 22 19:31
trmancoyeahMay 22 19:32
trmancodon't know about the portsMay 22 19:32
trmancoevolution works with out any mention of themMay 22 19:32
trmancoTLS, never knew what's the difference between sslMay 22 19:32
trmancoI hate pop thoughMay 22 19:33
trmancoIMAP is greatMay 22 19:33
DaemonFCwell, my dad is getting laid off from CaterpillarMay 22 19:34
DaemonFCit seems like every place he finds work, it lasts a few years and they go underMay 22 19:34
DaemonFC57 years old, he's got at least 8 years til he can retireMay 22 19:34
DaemonFCand fucking Richard Stallman is saying shit about thisMay 22 19:35
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DaemonFCoh I'd like to meet that guy in personMay 22 19:35
DaemonFChe wouldn't like itMay 22 19:35
mib_lvp5djbut is RMS the cause of the layoff at catapuller?May 22 19:36
trmancohe has to have opinion about free software, not people loosing there jobsMay 22 19:36
DaemonFChe's been urging a boycottMay 22 19:36
mib_lvp5djits the recessionMay 22 19:36
DaemonFCthat guy is an irreverent assholeMay 22 19:36
mib_lvp5djsometimes its best not to get into the "politics"May 22 19:37
DaemonFCit's not politicsMay 22 19:37
DaemonFCthat's my dadMay 22 19:37
DaemonFCI'd like to meet this RMS asswipeMay 22 19:37
DaemonFCand feed him his dickMay 22 19:37
DaemonFCseriouslyMay 22 19:37
trmancoyeah, but people get laid off because of politicsMay 22 19:37
DaemonFCthe guy is a far left nutcaseMay 22 19:38
DaemonFCand a traitorMay 22 19:38
DaemonFCand yeah, he is politicalMay 22 19:38
trmancotraitor?May 22 19:38
DaemonFCyes, traitorMay 22 19:38
trmancoby betraying the closed source model?May 22 19:38
trmanco:-pMay 22 19:39
DaemonFCI mean like RMS should get with Jimmy CarterMay 22 19:39
DaemonFCand find a way to smuggle weapons to the damned "Palestinians"May 22 19:39
DaemonFCso they can blow up civiliansMay 22 19:39
DaemonFCand hide behind childrenMay 22 19:39
DaemonFCthat's what RMS is really all aboutMay 22 19:39
DaemonFCtreasonMay 22 19:39
DaemonFChe's not only an arrogant ass, he is plain stupidMay 22 19:39
trmancoheh, whatever...May 22 19:40
trmancoI don't agree with you on this... but hey, that's your opinion...May 22 19:40
DaemonFChe's one of these people that use their freedoms to blast the country and people that provide themMay 22 19:40
DaemonFChe's uselessMay 22 19:40
mib_lvp5djI do not know all of RMS opinions on politics, and really, I don't want to.  But on freedom and software, I generally agree with RMSMay 22 19:41
DaemonFCread his blogMay 22 19:41
DaemonFChe's a bigot tooMay 22 19:41
DaemonFChe's wrong, he is so wrong that even if we were in a universe where he was right, he'd still be wrongMay 22 19:41
mib_lvp5djI can agree with you DaemonFC on a lot of things about windows, but one thing that puzzles me, is why?  Why use it?May 22 19:42
DaemonFCmeh, there's good reasons for using anythingMay 22 19:43
DaemonFCand bad things that can happen with anythingMay 22 19:43
mib_lvp5djyes, I would agree, but I would like to here yoursMay 22 19:43
mib_lvp5djand please don't tell me windows is more secure, I got that from Andre on MS WatchMay 22 19:44
DaemonFChardware devices that have no Linux drivers, games that Wine can't run, and wrestling around with compilers and packaging systems on Linux for hours, thinking I fixed something, and winding up breaking it because of something stupid and specific to one distroMay 22 19:44
DaemonFCno, it's not more secureMay 22 19:44
mib_lvp5djthx'sMay 22 19:44
DaemonFCfor example, if you compile and install your own kernel in Ubuntu without removing nvidia-common firstMay 22 19:45
DaemonFCit will never let you uninstall that kernelMay 22 19:45
DaemonFCbecause it will break one of the uninstallation scriptsMay 22 19:45
mib_lvp5djmostly winmodems, some printers, half of the scanners, half of the tv cards (xp is better supported in tv cards)May 22 19:45
DaemonFCyou don't find out about this until you go to remove it thoughMay 22 19:45
DaemonFCoddly enough when I was wrestling around with that Foxconn bios issueMay 22 19:46
mib_lvp5djbecause nvidia is a closed source driverMay 22 19:46
DaemonFCI ran into an engineer of theirsMay 22 19:46
DaemonFCwho used to work at AverMediaMay 22 19:46
mib_lvp5djI use ATIMay 22 19:46
DaemonFChe said that he wrote Linux drivers for some of their cardsMay 22 19:46
DaemonFCbut there wasn't much money for themMay 22 19:46
DaemonFCso they laid him offMay 22 19:46
DaemonFCright before he was going to make a driver for my modelMay 22 19:46
mib_lvp5djso which games do you play that cannot work on linux?May 22 19:47
DaemonFCso this card will never run on LinuxMay 22 19:47
mib_lvp5djunless you write the driverMay 22 19:47
DaemonFCuhhhm, I've got quite a few, a lot will run but performance is much lower than XP or VistaMay 22 19:47
DaemonFCand some won't even install cause Wine can't cope with SecuROMMay 22 19:48
DaemonFCOblivion Game of the Year does thatMay 22 19:48
mib_lvp5djme I only retrogame, so Linux is perfectMay 22 19:48
DaemonFCso I could install it on Windows, apply a crack, and copy it over to WineMay 22 19:48
DaemonFCbut :PMay 22 19:48
DaemonFCthat's a lot of dataMay 22 19:48
mib_lvp5djhow about xp in virtualbox, do you do that?May 22 19:49
DaemonFCyeah, Wine can handle some older copy protectionMay 22 19:49
mib_lvp5djwill any of those games work that way?May 22 19:49
DaemonFCat least enough to get things installedMay 22 19:49
DaemonFCnoMay 22 19:49
DaemonFCOblivion is pretty heavyMay 22 19:49
DaemonFChowever you run it, it'll have to be "native"May 22 19:50
DaemonFCor at least as much as possibleMay 22 19:50
mib_lvp5djsure, CIV4 in wine was too heavy for my old hardware in wine, it did work, but too slowMay 22 19:50
DaemonFCyou run into some of these games that use *EVERY* DirectX feature there isMay 22 19:50
DaemonFCand Wine just basically diesMay 22 19:50
mib_lvp5djbut my hardware is still single coreMay 22 19:50
DaemonFCWine has a pretty feature complete DirectX 9May 22 19:51
DaemonFCbut performance can still be bad sometimesMay 22 19:51
mib_lvp5djDirectX is a multimedia extenstion, which Bill Gates at one point in his life said it was one of the ways he was going stop Linux with.  I can never find that quote either anymore.May 22 19:51
DaemonFCDirectX is good and bad, good in that they add features faster than OpenGL these days, but bad in that I can't use it on my Mac or in BSD/Linux cause it's not openMay 22 19:52
DaemonFCthat's probably why Gates said thatMay 22 19:53
DaemonFCOpenGL consortium is descending into an incoherent bureaucracy these daysMay 22 19:53
mib_lvp5djDirectX is bad because its closed source and patentedMay 22 19:53
DaemonFCthat's what I saidMay 22 19:53
MinceRdirectx is also bad because m$ controls it fullyMay 22 19:53
DaemonFCand OpenGL is still bloated for gamesMay 22 19:53
MinceRopengl isn't only for gamesMay 22 19:53
mib_lvp5djand used as a means to stop or slow down linuxMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCsomething like MiniGL or Glide was optimalMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCvs. OpenGLMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCyeah, but what they should do is make two APIsMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCone optimized for the gaming industryMay 22 19:54
MinceRsounds like a very bad idea to meMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCand one for stuff like CAD and suchMay 22 19:54
DaemonFCthat's basically what they're doingMay 22 19:55
mib_lvp5djdirectX is for games as formats are to MS OfficeMay 22 19:55
DaemonFCpost-OpenGL 3May 22 19:55
MinceRwhich would they use for desktop compositing and 3d screensavers?May 22 19:55
DaemonFCwith all this talk of different "dialects" of OpenGLMay 22 19:55
DaemonFClook at their plansMay 22 19:55
MinceRby "dialects", you mean vendor-specific extensions?May 22 19:55
DaemonFCno, I mean they've decided to split the APIMay 22 19:56
DaemonFCfor different purposesMay 22 19:56
DaemonFCIt's all pretty vague, but they were talking about it on WikipediaMay 22 19:56
DaemonFCand on their roadmapMay 22 19:56
mib_lvp5djDirectX is used as a means for M$ to control the gaming platform on intel based PC'sMay 22 19:57
DaemonFCyeah, but basically all Wine does is translateMay 22 19:57
mib_lvp5djits evil in itselfMay 22 19:57
mib_lvp5djM$ would patent the air itself if they could get away with itMay 22 19:59
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, I too was a gamer at one pointMay 22 19:59
DaemonFCno company wouldn't patent the airMay 22 19:59
DaemonFC:PMay 22 19:59
mib_lvp5djgood point. lolMay 22 20:00
DaemonFChmmm, I wonder if I can sync my Zune in LinuxMay 22 20:00
DaemonFCI know Rhythmbox can sync MTP devicesMay 22 20:00
DaemonFCwill have to wait til it gets hereMay 22 20:00
mib_lvp5djI have a scandisk mp3 player and have not tried it yetMay 22 20:01
DaemonFCit can play un-DRM'd AAC and MP3May 22 20:01
DaemonFCand it was cheap as all hellMay 22 20:01
mib_lvp5djScandisk was #2 behind Ipod last I knew, with Zune a distance 3rd in salesMay 22 20:01
DaemonFCscandisk?May 22 20:01
DaemonFC:DMay 22 20:01
mib_lvp5djcheap is always a good dealMay 22 20:01
mib_lvp5djbut myself, I would still not buy M$, ever, but thats just meMay 22 20:02
DaemonFC 22 20:02
DaemonFC:DMay 22 20:02
DaemonFC 22 20:02
DaemonFC(old style)May 22 20:02
DaemonFCthey did explain why they chose blue at one pointMay 22 20:03
DaemonFCfor the BSODMay 22 20:03
mib_lvp5djcorrection=scandisk=sansa    it was a birthday presentMay 22 20:03
DaemonFC"The colour blue was chosen because the console colours of the Alpha, a platform that runs a version of Windows NT, could not be changed easily."May 22 20:04
DaemonFC:PMay 22 20:04
DaemonFChehMay 22 20:05
mib_lvp5djNT3.11, NT3.51 or NT4.0?May 22 20:05
mib_lvp5djmost likely NT3.51May 22 20:05
DaemonFCWindows 2000 Beta 4 was the last version that ran on the DEC AlphaMay 22 20:05
mib_lvp5djNT3.11 not to be confused with WFW3.11May 22 20:06
DaemonFCThe last to support PowerPC was NT 4 which would also run on PPC MacsMay 22 20:06
DaemonFCthere was no NT 3.11May 22 20:06
DaemonFCthere was 3.1, 3.5, and 3.51May 22 20:06
mib_lvp5djOS/2 had a port to the powerpcMay 22 20:06
DaemonFCyeah, Apple made a mistake choosing PowerPCMay 22 20:07
DaemonFCwell, a couple reallyMay 22 20:07
DaemonFCThe economy of scale was never there so PPC chips cost more than x86, and the performance of the PPC was never really as good as x86, and the power consumption of the G5 was just horribleMay 22 20:08
mib_lvp5djBeOS early version also ran on powerpcMay 22 20:08
mib_lvp5djyesMay 22 20:08
DaemonFCso in moving the Mac to x86, they took advantage of the economies of scale provided by the fact that Windows runs on those systemsMay 22 20:08
DaemonFCand instead of lowering the retail price, they pocketed the differenceMay 22 20:09
DaemonFC:DMay 22 20:09
mib_lvp5djanyone know what xbox360 use?  Is it intel?  Or powerpc (I doubt)May 22 20:09
DaemonFCyou notice that OS X was always on both platforms, they jsut never transitioned til 2005May 22 20:09
DaemonFC360 uses the Xenon processorMay 22 20:10
DaemonFCa customized variant of the PPC G5May 22 20:10
DaemonFCwith 3 coresMay 22 20:10
DaemonFC@ 3.2 GhzMay 22 20:10
mib_lvp5djso it needs powerpc code?May 22 20:10
DaemonFCwhich explains partially why it needs that power brickMay 22 20:10
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:10
DaemonFCyeah, it runs a customized version of the Windows 2000 kernelMay 22 20:11
mib_lvp5djhelps to explain the overheating problem thenMay 22 20:11
DaemonFCit also ships with a specialized version of DirectX 9May 22 20:11
mib_lvp5djRROD and E74 issues somewhat, still its almost all bad designMay 22 20:11
DaemonFCwhich was really an early build of DirectX 10May 22 20:11
DaemonFCso it has some features of 10May 22 20:11
DaemonFCno, it's not really bad design, it was really unfinishedMay 22 20:12
DaemonFCbad MANAGEMENT was responsible for the bad hardwareMay 22 20:12
DaemonFCcause they wanted to one up SonyMay 22 20:12
mib_lvp5djM$ must have want it that way (PowerPC on Xbox360) to prevent games from being easily hacked to run on regular windows PC'sMay 22 20:12
DaemonFCif they had delayed it a year and not cheaped out on the cooling systemMay 22 20:13
DaemonFCall the kinks would be worked outMay 22 20:13
DaemonFCyeahMay 22 20:13
DaemonFCcause there's a number of XBOX emulators for PCMay 22 20:13
DaemonFCthat don't need to emulate the CPU instructionsMay 22 20:13
mib_lvp5dja year delay would not have made a difference, just look at how long it took M$ to turn out Vi$taMay 22 20:13
mib_lvp5djit might have been worseMay 22 20:14
DaemonFCmeh, too many people got to hook onto Vista with their pet projectsMay 22 20:14
mib_lvp5djif possibleMay 22 20:14
DaemonFCand all the really cool stuff was ditched when they started overMay 22 20:14
DaemonFCI have all the old Longhorn XP buildsMay 22 20:14
mib_lvp5djXbox360 might have been "the system" if it was dependable, hardware wise, and had not destroyed disksMay 22 20:15
DaemonFCthey worked on it for a couple years before they gave up and started overMay 22 20:15
mib_lvp5djme too, I have all the old longhornMay 22 20:15
DaemonFCwell, that's what happens when you go with the lowest bidderMay 22 20:15
DaemonFCand cheap out on designMay 22 20:15
mib_lvp5djup to 2003 and then stoppedMay 22 20:15
DaemonFCthey wanted to have the most powerful system and they weren't willing to pay to make it reliableMay 22 20:16
DaemonFCso it's a good system for the month or two it livesMay 22 20:16
DaemonFClolMay 22 20:16
DaemonFCyeahMay 22 20:16
mib_lvp5djits only as good as its warrenty, for 1 year, and 3 years now on RROD and E74.May 22 20:16
DaemonFCthey change their support roadmaps all the timeMay 22 20:17
DaemonFCbecause people really don't like buying new software when they stuff they have works fineMay 22 20:17
DaemonFCso they have trouble getting people to upgradeMay 22 20:17
mib_lvp5djbut if you add in the disk scatching problem, Xbox360 is a complete waste of moneyMay 22 20:17
DaemonFCwell, the disc scratching was only on certain drivesMay 22 20:18
DaemonFCthey have three suppliersMay 22 20:18
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:18
mib_lvp5djsome consumer group should be suing M$ back to the stone age for Xbox360May 22 20:18
DaemonFCand the disc drive is usually the least reliable piece of any consoleMay 22 20:18
DaemonFCI had to repair my PS 2 myselfMay 22 20:18
DaemonFCand my PS1 had to be upside down to play discsMay 22 20:18
mib_lvp5djme too, I have PS2 and PS1May 22 20:18
DaemonFCI had a warranty repair on the Thomson drive in the XBOXMay 22 20:19
DaemonFCso yeah...May 22 20:19
DaemonFCI've got PS2 Linux on mineMay 22 20:19
mib_lvp5djjust replaced a lazer in the PS2, had two of them given to me (broken) for doing some repairs and malware cleaning on a windows pcMay 22 20:19
DaemonFCyou can compile your own 2.6 kernelMay 22 20:19
DaemonFCit's actually fairly hard to get a spyware infestation without being somewhat at fault yourselfMay 22 20:20
DaemonFCalmost every time I've cleaned a Windows PC of spyware, there's been Limewire or such on itMay 22 20:20
mib_lvp5djcan u get extended warrenty from someone like Best Buy if you buy an XBox360  there?May 22 20:21
DaemonFCor they were using IE 6May 22 20:21
DaemonFC\or they were offered a codec plugin on a Russian porn siteMay 22 20:21
DaemonFC:PMay 22 20:21
DaemonFCbut most of the time they either ignored updates or actually installed the shit themselvesMay 22 20:21
mib_lvp5djthey just need to plug it in to the internet is my experence with windows users and malwareMay 22 20:21
DaemonFCnot the caseMay 22 20:21
DaemonFCI've never personally dealt with a virus or any spywareMay 22 20:22
mib_lvp5djthere is no such thing as "safe surfing" for windows users, although that can slow down the rate of infectionMay 22 20:22
DaemonFCon any of my systemsMay 22 20:22
DaemonFCthere's such a thingMay 22 20:22
mib_lvp5djyes, until the server you visit becomes infectedMay 22 20:23
DaemonFCI'm not even using resident antivirusMay 22 20:23
mib_lvp5djlike MS Watch did at least once, I think twiceMay 22 20:23
mib_lvp5djI wrote about that on MS Watch, and Joe Wilcox and eweek never respondedMay 22 20:23
DaemonFCjudicious use of other things can keep viruses outMay 22 20:24
mib_lvp5dja lot of sites that should be very secure get infectedMay 22 20:24
mib_lvp5djeven gov sitesMay 22 20:24
mib_lvp5djit can never be completely secure on the internet DaemonFCMay 22 20:24
mib_lvp5djeven with as much as I have done to secure itMay 22 20:25
DaemonFCnothing canMay 22 20:25
mib_lvp5djyou do use a limited user account in windows?  Not just he UAC in Vista/Seven which is not a true limited normal user accountMay 22 20:25
DaemonFCyeahMay 22 20:26
mib_lvp5djBTW, that limited account is not as good as the one in linuxMay 22 20:26
DaemonFCand SeaMonkey is running as a low integrity processMay 22 20:26
DaemonFC 22 20:26
mib_lvp5djof course, would expect nothing less of uMay 22 20:26
mib_lvp5djyou use a big host file?May 22 20:27
DaemonFCnoMay 22 20:27
DaemonFCslows things downMay 22 20:27
mib_lvp5djI even do that in linuxMay 22 20:27
mib_lvp5djblocks out most of the nastiesMay 22 20:27
mib_lvp5djhuge security plusMay 22 20:27
DaemonFCbrbMay 22 20:27
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mib_lvp5djdo you remove IE, Outlook, Windows Messinger, and WMP from your windows install?  Completely?May 22 20:28
DaemonFCnew daily buildMay 22 20:28
DaemonFCthere's no Outlook in VistaMay 22 20:29
DaemonFCor Windows MessengerMay 22 20:29
DaemonFCWindows Live Messenger blocks anything that could be a virus and scans it on their server before offering it to me :)May 22 20:29
mib_lvp5djthere is in XP, which I stopped at, although I have plenty of experience (pain)with Vista on custormer computersMay 22 20:29
DaemonFCand IE is disabled with the Security Policy editorMay 22 20:30
mib_lvp5djif you trust just one antivirus, I do notMay 22 20:30
DaemonFCI upload anything suspicious to virus totalMay 22 20:30
mib_lvp5djremoved is far better than disabled in the IE caseMay 22 20:30
DaemonFCI scan everything with ClamWinMay 22 20:30
mib_lvp5djClamwin is very good for scanning, but no shield for XPMay 22 20:31
mib_lvp5djI use Mike Lin's freewareMay 22 20:31
mib_lvp5djStartupmonitor and StartupCPLMay 22 20:31
DaemonFCI just scan things before I run themMay 22 20:31
mib_lvp5djStartupCPL is like the command line msconfigMay 22 20:32
DaemonFCMozillaZine has gone down the crapperMay 22 20:32
DaemonFC:PMay 22 20:32
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mib_lvp5djlet u ucheck which programs will run at startup.  Useful for installing many free antivirus and antimalware programs and then unchecking them.  so only one will run as a shield,  That way you can still use each to update, and scan with.   You be surprized at how much stuff one antivirus program can find that another cannotMay 22 20:34
mib_lvp5djAvira Antivir is best freeware antivirus for XP with a shieldMay 22 20:35
DaemonFCtoo slowMay 22 20:35
ReverseGTRwhen has this become a guide on how to free up memory in Windoze channel?May 22 20:35
mib_lvp5djfor the really paranoid, in xp install noscript and flashblockMay 22 20:35
mib_lvp5djno, my point is that windows cannot be secured, no matter how much you do to itMay 22 20:36
MinceRReverseGTR: when DaemonFC arrivedMay 22 20:36
mib_lvp5djwhy bother to do all this stuff, when Linux is so much more secure by defaultMay 22 20:36
ReverseGTRMinceR, yep, btw DaemonFC I am right now chatting from a PS3 running YDL v5 while listening to music and surting the webMay 22 20:37
mib_lvp5djI do it because of the malware cleaning for windows users.  But I not doing much now, wanted to get away from thatMay 22 20:37
ReverseGTRMinceR, nothing says secure like an obscure platform :PMay 22 20:37
MinceRReverseGTR: obscurity is far from the strongest security measureMay 22 20:38
mib_lvp5djThen there's OS/2 v4 for you, only about 200 viruses, mostly floppy based for itMay 22 20:38
ReverseGTRMinceR, well there is really not much else you can do with an obscure platform to make it any more secure unless you run it through a VPNMay 22 20:39
*DaemonFC has eComStationMay 22 20:39
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:39
MinceRReverseGTR: you're assuming you're the only person in the world who knows your platformMay 22 20:39
DaemonFC 22 20:40
mib_lvp5djMac has already passed the 6% high water mark of OS/2 warp V3, if you believe the lie of Net Apps.  And still not 200 viruses, so maybe the logic of using an obscure OS is not right?May 22 20:40
DaemonFCthere's plenty of Mac virusesMay 22 20:40
ReverseGTRMinceR, lol no, I know there are others who know far more about it than me, and I don't mean only developersMay 22 20:40
mib_lvp5djnot at all, there is a lot of knowledge on this siteMay 22 20:40
MinceRReverseGTR: then you realize they could easily break into your system if its only defense was obscurityMay 22 20:41
mib_lvp5djand more than me tooMay 22 20:41
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, what about Commodore Amiga?May 22 20:41
mib_lvp5djI know little about the AmigaMay 22 20:41
MinceRthe amiga is dead :>May 22 20:41
mib_lvp5djso isn't Dos, I heard that somewhere, most likely from M$May 22 20:42
mib_lvp5djand OS/2May 22 20:42
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, I mean virus penetration for it, it doesn't have any administrative assigning system and all libraries are open at all levelsMay 22 20:42
ReverseGTRMinceR, well it all depends on who you ask, there is still a vibrant AmigaOS emulating communityMay 22 20:42
mib_lvp5djAmiga could come back, its possible, but not likelyMay 22 20:43
MinceRi know an amiga fanaticMay 22 20:43
DaemonFC 22 20:43
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, it will be relegated to a hobby OS for sure, most of its features are being surpassed by immense hardware improvements vs price and Apple will adopt indepent resolutions in Snow LeopardMay 22 20:44
mib_lvp5djI have one of their disks.  but cannot emulate it as I do not have AMD-VMay 22 20:44
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DaemonFC"But Security Fix has found that half a year is about the average time it takes Cupertino to plug these types of holes. "May 22 20:44
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, so its relegated to hobby or fun nostalgiaMay 22 20:44
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:44
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, if you are talking about Apple's Java implamentation its no surprise, they haven't upgraded that plug-in to the latest standard in agesMay 22 20:45
mib_lvp5djhaiku the BeOS open clone, is another example of deadMay 22 20:45
mib_lvp5djits continues as a hobbyMay 22 20:45
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, I wish Haiku kept on going, it had potential and a healthy amount of ported apps including FirefoxMay 22 20:45
DaemonFCI don't know, I really fail to see how a Mac is preferable to VistaMay 22 20:45
DaemonFCif it comes down to those twoMay 22 20:46
DaemonFCthey're more alike than differentMay 22 20:46
mib_lvp5djreally, OS/2 as eComstation is the only active oneMay 22 20:46
DaemonFCeComStation is a decent system, unfortunately with only one small company updating it.......May 22 20:46
DaemonFCit'll never be anything more than a crutch for companies with old OS/2 appsMay 22 20:46
mib_lvp5djMac is preferable to many, because most windows users are not as knowable as you DaemonFC in securing their windows PC's from MalwareMay 22 20:47
MinceRthe company selling eCS has no access to many of its components :>May 22 20:47
DaemonFCfair enoughMay 22 20:47
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, most Apple users arn't either :PMay 22 20:47
MinceRcrApple users tend to be even less knowledgeableMay 22 20:47
MinceRremember why crApple mice have 1 buttonMay 22 20:47
DaemonFClmaoMay 22 20:47
ReverseGTRMinceR, at least Windoze makes you aware of the implications of using administrator priviledges too oftenMay 22 20:48
DaemonFCso I can browse with my middle finger extended at the MacMay 22 20:48
DaemonFCand not lose any features?May 22 20:48
DaemonFC:DMay 22 20:48
MinceRReverseGTR: via malware? :>May 22 20:48
MinceRReverseGTR: that feature is coming to macs too :>May 22 20:48
mib_lvp5djI have seen windows users bring me their computers multiple times to clean up malware.  At some point it would be cheaper for them to have bought a Mac.   Linux would be far cheaper, but they will not learn something, unless they shell out big bucks for hardware, ie a MacMay 22 20:48
ReverseGTRMinceR, thats one way of learning, the other is the barrage of warnings a user gets when switching to thatMay 22 20:49
DaemonFCI have never had a virusMay 22 20:49
MinceRDaemonFC: because they've tested users and found that they can't tell the difference between their index and middle fingerMay 22 20:49
MinceRand had to check which button is visuallyMay 22 20:49
trmanco[FSF] Free Software Action Alert!: 22 20:49
DaemonFCI've only found one in 18 years of scanning for themMay 22 20:49
DaemonFC:DMay 22 20:49
DaemonFCand that was before I installed itMay 22 20:49
DaemonFCand I'd say that's decentMay 22 20:49
DaemonFCthe antivirus companies have overblown the problemMay 22 20:50
DaemonFCand quite often they're the cause of a lot of problemsMay 22 20:50
ReverseGTRtrmanco, too bad eduacating reprisentatives in the American congressional reprisentation is not a priority. Even though they are getting it from the RIAA/MPAA and suchMay 22 20:50
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, I have have lots of viruses.  But most of the time I ran as administrator and did not know any better.  even though I did a lot to protect XPMay 22 20:50
DaemonFCI ran as "Administrator" from Windows 3.0 to XPMay 22 20:51
DaemonFCand sill only found the one, which I did not installMay 22 20:51
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:51
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, Windows 3.x has administrator mode?May 22 20:51
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I thought that was only in NT OSsMay 22 20:51
DaemonFCeffectively yesMay 22 20:51
DaemonFCbecause there are no standard usersMay 22 20:51
DaemonFC:PMay 22 20:51
mib_lvp5djI even got one on my limited user account but it was from a trojan that I installed that the antivirus and antimalware programs did not findMay 22 20:51
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, well then that means everything dating back to the Radio Shack Tandy is adminstrator only too :P\May 22 20:52
DaemonFCWindows 9x/Me had multiple logon support, but that just changed your desktop and start menu iconsMay 22 20:52
mib_lvp5djand it was a bad one, the system had to be completely reinstalledMay 22 20:52
DaemonFCyou could still see all the files for everyone that used the computerMay 22 20:52
MinceRand you could log into 9x by clicking CancelMay 22 20:53
mib_lvp5dj9x was a single type of account, every user ran as adminMay 22 20:53
DaemonFCwell, there were a number of damning limitations with 9x/Me that made them untenableMay 22 20:53
MinceRwell, it was a typical m$ productMay 22 20:53
mib_lvp5djOS/2 is also, I believe a single user accountMay 22 20:54
DaemonFCno SMP support, the system got slower if you put more than 256 megs of RAM in, FAT32 suckedMay 22 20:54
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DaemonFCwell, Windows 9x was just so long in the tooth that there was no pretending that it could go on any longerMay 22 20:54
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:54
DaemonFCbbiabMay 22 20:54
mib_lvp5djbut FAT32 is transportable more than any other system between OS'es and devicesMay 22 20:55
mib_lvp5djNTFS also helped to break quite a few backup optionsMay 22 20:55
MinceRi've read the palm articleMay 22 20:56
MinceRapparently palm doesn't really want to succeedMay 22 20:57
mib_lvp5djwhen will the vaporware filesystem "winfs" be released?May 22 20:57
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, well if Windows embraced .extMay 22 20:57
*tacone (i=975098c3@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellMay 22 20:58
ReverseGTRor even .hfsMay 22 20:58
DaemonFCWinFS is not a new file systemMay 22 20:58
MinceRmib_lvp5dj: neverMay 22 20:58
mib_lvp5djagreed, neverMay 22 20:58
DaemonFCFAT32 also has max file limit of 4 gigsMay 22 20:58
DaemonFCso you can't store DVD ISO imagesMay 22 20:58
DaemonFC:)May 22 20:58
taconehelloMay 22 20:58
ReverseGTRMinceR, please elaborate on Palm wanting to fail?May 22 20:58
ReverseGTRMinceR, I mean besides not including Visual Voicemail in the PreMay 22 20:59
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, agreed Fat32 has a lot of problemsMay 22 20:59
MinceRReverseGTR: 22 20:59
DaemonFC 22 20:59
MinceRReverseGTR: they're showing disdain to would-be developersMay 22 20:59
MinceRReverseGTR: for webOSMay 22 20:59
MinceReven though that's one of the things they need the mostMay 22 20:59
MinceRafter all, the power of palmos was partly in the software libraryMay 22 21:00
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, you can get locked into things like FAT32 and AVI, both non-freeMay 22 21:00
ReverseGTRMinceR, that makes no sense considering WebOS is a HTML/CSS overlay of an API on a Linux KernelMay 22 21:01
MinceRReverseGTR: even then apps would need to be adjusted to itMay 22 21:01
ReverseGTRMinceR, it could be they are just freaked out about the potential of software completed before the Pre's release that could be buggy because of itMay 22 21:01
MinceRscreen size, purpose, controls, etc.May 22 21:01
MinceRthey could easily disclaim responsibility for buggy third-party softwareMay 22 21:01
ReverseGTRMinceR, that logic may make no sense to developers who can bug test and patch the app once the Pre is out, but shareholders would freak if they saw any news of bugsMay 22 21:02
MinceRor they could tell them "ok guys, wait until release, then we'll talk"May 22 21:02
MinceR(the pre isn't out yet?)May 22 21:02
ReverseGTRMinceR, its pretty much BS posturing though, there is really nothing much Palm can do since they released the SDK and WebOS is based on open standardsMay 22 21:02
MinceRsure, but i'd think it's in their best interests to encourage developersMay 22 21:03
DaemonFC 22 21:04
MinceRlolMay 22 21:06
ReverseGTRMinceR, its probably just an issue with one head of the company conflicting with the other. CTO Mitch Allen gave a shoutout to the preDevelopementCamp, while certain shareholders pressured their legal team to send cease and disist noticesMay 22 21:06
DaemonFCPidgin 2.5.6 released, new features include............May 22 21:06
taconedebian packaging anyone ?May 22 21:07
DaemonFCthe ability to download it and pretend you have webcam supportMay 22 21:07
DaemonFC:DMay 22 21:07
MinceRwhoaMay 22 21:07
ReverseGTRMinceR, Palm's issues with reigning in its own rhedoric among other things is what probably lead to the Palm Source splitMay 22 21:07
MinceRdo i need a webcam to pretend that?May 22 21:07
DaemonFCyes you doMay 22 21:07
DaemonFCand one that works with the new GSPCA driver in the kernelMay 22 21:07
MinceRdamnMay 22 21:07
DaemonFCand VFL2May 22 21:07
DaemonFCyou could be out $70 by the time you realize that Linux can't see itMay 22 21:08
DaemonFCand that you couldn't do anything with it even if it didMay 22 21:08
DaemonFC:)May 22 21:08
MinceRi guess i'll have to pretend that i have a webcamMay 22 21:08
DaemonFCthat's the spiritMay 22 21:08
DaemonFCPidgin sucks, just for that reason, and the people behind GNOME are cloning it's lack of features and removing more featuresMay 22 21:09
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I wonder if YDL will ever be compatible with the PSEyeMay 22 21:09
DaemonFCeven with the hideos interface of Gyachi or aMSN, you can still use your webcamMay 22 21:09
DaemonFCmaybeMay 22 21:09
DaemonFCif they haven't changed the protocol in the last yearMay 22 21:10
DaemonFCbut with Pidgin, nyetMay 22 21:10
DaemonFCprobably notMay 22 21:10
DaemonFCWhy would Sony fix it?May 22 21:10
DaemonFCthey already have your moneyMay 22 21:10
DaemonFC:DMay 22 21:10
MinceRwhy would i want to use a webcam with an instant messenger? :>May 22 21:11
DaemonFCMinceR? Video callsMay 22 21:11
DaemonFCof courseMay 22 21:11
MinceRsynchronous communication is overrated.May 22 21:11
DaemonFCyou are like so 1999May 22 21:11
ReverseGTRMinceR, to show yourself to potential partners abroad in your morning gloryMay 22 21:11
DaemonFCAt first I thought GNOME was going to make Telepathy for a reasonMay 22 21:12
DaemonFCbut it's looking less and less useful every releaseMay 22 21:13
DaemonFCyou still have to have 90% of Pidgin installed to use itMay 22 21:13
DaemonFC:)May 22 21:13
DaemonFC(libpurple)May 22 21:13
mib_lvp5djwell, its non-free but skype is good for videoMay 22 21:14
DaemonFCwell, Ekiga is free, but considering that statistically, 99% of the people you want to talk to are on Windows or Mac and will say "What the hell is Ekiga?"May 22 21:16
DaemonFC:PMay 22 21:16
mib_lvp5djDaenonFC, you are correct, its why I use skypeMay 22 21:17
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: yes, I got the PMMay 22 21:17
schestowitzThanks, as I said, I kept record. Saved.May 22 21:17
mib_lvp5djRoy, I would not use it, the infor, but it might be useful to know whoMay 22 21:17
DaemonFC 22 21:17
DaemonFCArmy marching toward Windows VistaMay 22 21:18
mib_lvp5djknow thy enemyMay 22 21:18
DaemonFCThe Army has already moved 44,000 of its 744,000 desktops to Vista and is making the move to bolster security, according to an Army News Service article.May 22 21:18
schestowitzBalrog_: Palm's Pre was never supposed to be 'open'May 22 21:18
mib_lvp5djwaste of USA tax moneyMay 22 21:19
schestowitzThey are just Linux /users/May 22 21:19
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, interesting since the navy stated they are going to use LinuxMay 22 21:21
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I wonder how much conflict this may cause between the branchesMay 22 21:21
mib_lvp5djI wonder about Palm using linux.  Why?  They bought out the remains of BeOs supposedly to use that, and then they just buried itMay 22 21:22
mib_lvp5djMaybe its was just cheaper to rip off open source linux than the code for the old BeOS?May 22 21:22
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, you are mixing up Palm Source which is now ACCESS with Palm.incMay 22 21:23
schestowitzDaemonFC: don't make physical threatsMay 22 21:23
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, the two companies split in 2001May 22 21:23
schestowitzThat's the second time !!May 22 21:23
mib_lvp5djah, thank you ReverseMay 22 21:23
DaemonFCmust be one of those "mixed environments"May 22 21:24
schestowitzThe army Vista thing is just MS PRMay 22 21:24
schestowitzJust watch where it comes fromMay 22 21:24
schestowitzIna FriedshillMay 22 21:24
DaemonFCRMS is a kook and a traitorMay 22 21:24
schestowitzFed right from W-E or the VoleMay 22 21:24
DaemonFCand it pisses me off when he says he's glad my dad is going to be unemployedMay 22 21:24
DaemonFCthey should run over RMS with a damned CaterpillerMay 22 21:25
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, it seems though ACCESS dumbed Cobalt or Palm OS6 in favor of working with developer Windriver to create a Linux distro with Palm emulator for mobilesMay 22 21:25
schestowitzDaemonFC: there are more jobs out there in sort of zero-sum gameMay 22 21:25
*neonfloss has quit ("Leaving")May 22 21:25
schestowitzHad Mcirosoft laid people off, others would take up its shareMay 22 21:25
schestowitzThen, jobs are createdMay 22 21:25
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, I guess they figured BeOS didn't have enough developer support to continue pushing as a platformMay 22 21:25
DaemonFCno they aren't not hereMay 22 21:25
schestowitzProbably in a company that is not managed and run by criminals (white-collar)May 22 21:25
DaemonFCthe jobs fire people then go to some third world hell pitMay 22 21:25
DaemonFCand snap people up dima a dozenMay 22 21:26
DaemonFC*dimeMay 22 21:26
schestowitzI am very sorry to hear about your fatherMay 22 21:26
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, even though imo ACCESS should just devest its stake in BeOS which they find worthless and release all of it as GPLMay 22 21:26
schestowitzSo it's not as though people (even RMS) won't sympathiseMay 22 21:26
schestowitzThe corporation is not the personMay 22 21:26
DaemonFCI'm worried about him, he is oldMay 22 21:26
schestowitzIt's like a cocoon for manyMay 22 21:26
mib_lvp5djBeOS did not have developer support, true.  they should have open sourced it somehow like SolarisMay 22 21:26
DaemonFChe's taking care of my step-mom who is disabledMay 22 21:26
DaemonFCand fighting the governmentMay 22 21:26
schestowitzHad RMS targeted one person, that would be differentMay 22 21:26
DaemonFCand to have people saying things like thatMay 22 21:26
DaemonFChe wouldn't say it to my faceMay 22 21:27
DaemonFCcause I would do something about itMay 22 21:27
DaemonFCI would tear him in halfMay 22 21:27
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, unfortunately ACCESS seems to be run by a bunch of not only selfish but ignorant mofosMay 22 21:27
schestowitzYesMay 22 21:27
schestowitzI don't like ACCESSMay 22 21:27
schestowitzLowe profile, properietaryMay 22 21:27
ReverseGTRschestowitz, true, I can imagine their execs only see Linux as a sales ployMay 22 21:28
ReverseGTRand cheap to developeMay 22 21:28
DaemonFCAny reputable Linux business would hide kooks like RMS under the rugMay 22 21:28
DaemonFCas much as possibleMay 22 21:28
schestowitzMany companies do keep a distance from himMay 22 21:29
mib_lvp5djReverse, agreed.  But you have to wonder where they get the return on just burring the product like BeOS?  Now if they were connected with M$, I could see where M$ might want a competitor burried.  Not that BeOS ever obtained real market share.May 22 21:29
schestowitzBut without him there would be no thriving LinuxMay 22 21:29
schestowitzManybe BSDMay 22 21:29
balzacDaemonFC: I'm starting a reputable business which will rely heavily on the Linux kernel as a part of the GNU operating systemMay 22 21:29
balzacI'm a strong defender of RMSMay 22 21:29
balzacbtw, what operating system do you use?May 22 21:30
DaemonFCI don't really see any controversial and polarizing figures behind FreeBSDMay 22 21:30
mib_lvp5djwithout RMS there would be no GNU/LinuxMay 22 21:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: RMS is not the targetMay 22 21:30
balzacDaemonFC probably has me on ignoreMay 22 21:30
schestowitzHe targets another issueMay 22 21:30
balzache needs a banningMay 22 21:30
DaemonFChe targets a lot of issuesMay 22 21:30
schestowitzSo you're attacking one who attacks another problemMay 22 21:30
balzacwhat a snot-nosed windows fanboyMay 22 21:30
DaemonFCalways siding with the bad guysMay 22 21:30
DaemonFCjust read his blogMay 22 21:30
schestowitzAnd many people suffer from the employment turmoil right nowMay 22 21:30
schestowitzRMS does not have much impact ourside FSMay 22 21:30
balzacRoy, DaemonFC has to be a trollMay 22 21:31
balzacI can't believe he's serious about software freedomMay 22 21:31
DaemonFCwell, there's a line where artists  rights must be respected, but abuse of customers can't be allowedMay 22 21:32
DaemonFCI don't really see too many free software figures taking a good stance on thisMay 22 21:32
balzacRoy, you should tell him he can't ignore me or he'll get bannedMay 22 21:32
balzache won't even tell us what operating system he's usingMay 22 21:32
mib_lvp5djI don't think DaemonFC is a troll, or I would not bother talking with himMay 22 21:32
balzacthat shouldn't be allowedMay 22 21:32
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, certain companies are innept like that, ecspecially when they split off from a parent or change management. The new management may have no idea what the old was planning for some of their assetsMay 22 21:32
DaemonFCI think Limewire and Bittorrent show the honor system doesn't work, but DRM rootkits are a bad thing tooMay 22 21:33
balzacmib_lvp5dj: no offense, but you didn't even bother to get a nickname yetMay 22 21:33
DaemonFCIt would be nice to figure out where a compromise can be struckMay 22 21:33
mib_lvp5djBalzac, true.  today there was no option for the name I could findMay 22 21:34
balzacRoy, it sucks when people can't be civil or forthright enough to not put each other on ignoreMay 22 21:34
DaemonFCbeing in middle management in a large company is worse than it looksMay 22 21:34
mib_lvp5djguess I need to sign up.  its chips b malroy hereMay 22 21:34
ReverseGTRmib_lvp5dj, for example Gateway orginonally bought the patents and the trademark of AmigaOS from ESCOM's liquidation, which was the company that bought it from Comodore. They then leased the trademark and sourcecode to for use by another company that since then has been embroiled in a legal battle over rights to sell the product of it Amiga OS4. While Gateway who has since been bought by Acer seems to have no idea they own allMay 22 21:34
ReverseGTR the rightsMay 22 21:34
DaemonFCI've been in a Dilbertized cubicle farmMay 22 21:34
balzacI asked DaemonFC some simple questions after he was bagging on leading GPL-licensed projects two days in a rowMay 22 21:34
DaemonFCin management :PMay 22 21:34
balzache wouldn't answer a single questionMay 22 21:34
DaemonFCnever againMay 22 21:34
schestowitz"Merck employees planned to discredit and sabotage the careers of MDs who criticized the company. Merck also bullied the UK government into denying legal aid to people harmed by vioxx." 22 21:35
balzacthen he put me on ignore after I confronted him about soiling your channel with dangerous inciteful languageMay 22 21:35
MinceRReverseGTR: i'd rather spare them of my "morning glory" :>May 22 21:35
balzacthey guy should get banned if he can't face a criticMay 22 21:35
schestowitz"The proposal for a right-to-repair law illustrates the harm done by proprietary software in cars." 22 21:35
DaemonFCyeah, there's already a clause in the DMCA that says you can bypass copy protection mechanisms for the purpose of repairing a customers computerMay 22 21:36
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, I do think you should think about toning down the comments about RMSMay 22 21:36
ReverseGTRMinceR, its funny how some product can be defined as "dead" even though it not only still has users but has been updated and developed, abet on a small scaleMay 22 21:36
MinceRas for skype, it's fine as long as you don't want to have any control whatsoever over what code runs on your computer and what gets transmitted over your network connectionMay 22 21:36
ReverseGTRMinceR, same sort of thing is happening with RISC OSMay 22 21:36
DaemonFCAmigaOS is pretty much deadMay 22 21:36
MinceRthe only good things about RISC OS are some ideas in its GUI that everyone should stealMay 22 21:37
mib_lvp5djpersonal attack is not a good thingMay 22 21:37
MinceR(and some that everyone has stolen already)May 22 21:37
DaemonFCI can't blame Acer for not even noticing they used to own it through a big company they boughtMay 22 21:37
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, well for all intentional purposes for commercial success it is, but it still makes a funny hobby OS to tinker around with and learn about how OSs work in generalMay 22 21:37
DaemonFCso do a lot of thingsMay 22 21:37
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I see the sort of value in it as an automobile enthusiast would see in a 1970s muscle carMay 22 21:37
DaemonFCI think MINIX was grossly overlookedMay 22 21:38
MinceRwell, minix is still aroundMay 22 21:38
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, an interactive way to look at computing history and an easier why to find out "whats under the hood"May 22 21:38
MinceRiirc there's an eu project to develop it nowMay 22 21:38
DaemonFCwell it never required specialty hardware eitherMay 22 21:38
MinceR(well, eu-funded university project)May 22 21:38
DaemonFCand it was never closed sourceMay 22 21:38
DaemonFCso yeahMay 22 21:38
DaemonFCI can run MINIX on any x86 system there isMay 22 21:39
DaemonFCbut unless you have an old PPC Mac laying around....May 22 21:39
DaemonFCno AmigaOSMay 22 21:39
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I can also run any AmigaOS, Atari GeOS and Acorn RISC emulator on x86 tooMay 22 21:39
DaemonFCthen there's the "It's not open source" partMay 22 21:39
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I can even install it without a formal partitionMay 22 21:39
DaemonFCI'm still rooting for ReactOS :)May 22 21:40
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, UAE (Universal Amiga Emulator) is open source, the only thing that is not is the kickstar ROMs and OS kernel nessisary to have the OS running on the emulator in the first placeMay 22 21:40
DaemonFCMicrosoft is cracking the whip on OEM's and giving them the minimum specs for a Windows 7 netbookMay 22 21:41
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, but anything that is older then AmigaOS 3.9 is now under creative commons anywayMay 22 21:41
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, minimum specs to run all the nice GUI features of Windows 7?May 22 21:42
DaemonFClooks like Windows 7 netbooks may run AeroMay 22 21:42
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, or will it be another "Vista Certified" fiasco in the making?May 22 21:42
DaemonFC:)May 22 21:42
DaemonFCno, they're raising the maximum specsMay 22 21:42
ReverseGTRmay run Aero? thats the least of good customer worriesMay 22 21:42
DaemonFCMicrosoft has maximums so that laptops can't be called netbooksMay 22 21:43
DaemonFCto qualify for $15 XPMay 22 21:43
*lis` has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))May 22 21:43
MinceRi'd expect the windows fan to root for reactos :>May 22 21:43
DaemonFC:)May 22 21:43
MinceRi think they're thinking more along the lines of "crawl aero" than "run aero"May 22 21:44
MinceR"please wait, rendering desktop icon."May 22 21:44
DaemonFCnawMay 22 21:44
DaemonFCAero has pretty minimal requuirementsMay 22 21:44
MinceRor they'll just rename Windows Classic to Aero and point at it and say "see, it runs Aero!"May 22 21:44
DaemonFCeven Intel GMAs should run it fineMay 22 21:44
MinceRi guess i'm just jaded and cynical :>May 22 21:45
balzacMinceR: would you ask DaemonFC if he runs windows?May 22 21:45
MinceRbalzac: he's shown plenty of vista screenshots he claimed to be his, so i'd say he doesMay 22 21:46
balzacthat's why he wouldn't answer me yesterdayMay 22 21:46
schestowitzbalzac: he doesMay 22 21:46
balzacthe guy is a toolMay 22 21:46
MinceRindeedMay 22 21:46
DaemonFCthe slowest system I've ran Vista on was a 1.8 Ghz Sempron with 128 megs shared RAM on a Radeom 200M, and like 960 megs of RAM left for the systemMay 22 21:46
DaemonFCI believe that's itMay 22 21:46
balzache was ripping on Firefox one day, Ubuntu the next dayMay 22 21:46
schestowitzbrbMay 22 21:46
balzacnow he's bagging on RMSMay 22 21:46
tacone 22 21:46
taconethat makes me always laughMay 22 21:46
DaemonFCerrrMay 22 21:47
DaemonFC860 that was :PMay 22 21:47
balzacand he's put me on ignore for confronting him about the harm his irresponsible, inciteful language could do to BNMay 22 21:47
balzacschestowitz: when you have a guy who does not embrace the values of computer users freedom and who doesn't value your forum, you just might have a troll whose purpose is to hurt your reputationMay 22 21:48
balzacalso, he's anonymousMay 22 21:48
balzacI was just thinking, you might want to be a bit paranoid about protecting the reputation of BN from a anonymous and irresponsible, bomb-throwing commentersMay 22 21:49
balzacthey want to make you look radicalMay 22 21:50
DaemonFCAs Boris expresses his plight in one episode: "I put bomb in squirrel's briefcase and who gets blown up? Me!"May 22 21:51
balzache could just be an angsty teenage twerpMay 22 21:51
DaemonFCAs Boris expresses his plight in one episode: "I put bomb in squirrel's briefcase and who gets blown up? Me!"May 22 21:51
DaemonFCerrrMay 22 21:51
DaemonFC 22 21:51
DaemonFCyou just reminded me of thatMay 22 21:51
balzacme?May 22 21:51
DaemonFCyeahMay 22 21:51
balzacDaemonFC: I'm not trying to pick on you, but Roy gets dogged by people looking for ammunition against him.May 22 21:52
balzacIt's just due diligenceMay 22 21:52
DaemonFCa few people perhapsMay 22 21:53
DaemonFCmarketing agencies that have one person with 20 accounts typing shit into twitter, digg, and amazon all dayMay 22 21:53
balzacI had to call out a guy on BN who was making outrageous claims against Roy and would not disclose his identityMay 22 21:53
balzacI share my identity because I'm not a masked crusaderMay 22 21:54
DaemonFCI say he invented the apostropheMay 22 21:54
DaemonFCand perhaps the question markMay 22 21:54
balzacI'm an entrepreneur who has a stake in protecting Roy's work from those who could hurt his reputation, even incidentally and unintentionallyMay 22 21:54
DaemonFCuh huh.....May 22 21:55
balzacyepMay 22 21:55
balzaceven my own political rantingMay 22 21:56
balzacI'd be careful to claim it as my own, not representative of the work of BNMay 22 21:56
balzacand my identity is no secretMay 22 21:56
balzacRoy uncovers lots of interesting things about Microsoft which could cause them to lose marketshare if the truth becomes widely knownMay 22 21:57
balzachis work has been bogged down before in squabbles between people behind pseudonyms vs RoyMay 22 21:58
balzacI'm Paul GaskinMay 22 21:59
balzacI'm banking on the decline of microsoft's market shareMay 22 21:59
balzacI just don't want anyone to be able to say BN has radical or irresponsible, anonymous participants to discredit the important work done by BNMay 22 22:00
balzacThat's all there is to it. A reputation is all you've got in academia or in business and it has to be protected.May 22 22:02
mib_lvp5djbalzac, masked crusader you might think I be, but my identity is that I am nobody of importance.  To reveal my true name, would only give ammunition for the M$ shills that I have opposed at MS WatchMay 22 22:05
ReverseGTRbrbMay 22 22:05
*ReverseGTR has quit ("Leaving")May 22 22:05
balzacmib_lvp5dj: as long as anonymous users don't make irresponsible comments, it's not an issue.May 22 22:05
mib_lvp5djbalzac, thx's.  I usually can back up what I sayMay 22 22:06
schestowitzbalzac: what he says are not my wordsMay 22 22:06
balzacit's not important for people to disclose their identity unless they're saying something which could have legal repercussionsMay 22 22:06
schestowitzThey tried similar things with "twitter"May 22 22:06
MinceRmib_lvp5dj: balzac doesn't understand the value of anonymityMay 22 22:06
balzacschestowitz: it's a teeny bit naive to think that you won't be smeared based on what others sayMay 22 22:07
mib_lvp5djyesMay 22 22:07
mib_lvp5djRoy will be smeared no matter whatMay 22 22:07
balzacif you follow the political blogging, you can see how Fox Noise consistently digs up the worst comments of group blog participants and then says they speak for the whole blogMay 22 22:07
mib_lvp5djhe has become too much of a trouble maker for companies like M$ or NovellMay 22 22:07
balzacDailyKos, My Left Wing, etc.May 22 22:07
balzacAnd they do it to Noam Chomsky as wellMay 22 22:08
mib_lvp5djRoy educates people and that is not what M$ wantsMay 22 22:08
balzacAfter years of seeing it happen, I can only advise a more conservative approach as you gain a higher profile, so as not to give any ammo to those who intend to smear your reputation.May 22 22:08
schestowitzbalzac: no, you're rightMay 22 22:08
schestowitzI've being smeared by associationMay 22 22:09
schestowitzbut these smears are weakMay 22 22:09
balzacyeah, weak but sometimes effective when your opposition has a megaphone and you're a pampheteerMay 22 22:09
schestowitzbalzac: do they fake "Noam Chomsky"?May 22 22:09
schestowitzAlso, RMS was smeared in this wayMay 22 22:09
schestowitzTrolls of Microsoft E-mail him for repliesMay 22 22:10
schestowitzLike sending him abusive videos he can't watchMay 22 22:10
balzacno, they attack chomsky for the words of others whom he once defended on a particular case at a particular timeMay 22 22:10
schestowitzWasting his time and they smearing him in publicMay 22 22:10
mib_lvp5djRoy, M$ will never love you any moreMay 22 22:10
balzaclater that other person writes something outrageous, and Chomsky's opponents use that talking point from then onwardsMay 22 22:10
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: :-( :-(May 22 22:11
DaemonFCNoam Chomsky......not even going to startMay 22 22:11
schestowitzWhy not?May 22 22:11
mib_lvp5djyou and maybe even me to a far lesser extent, have hurt there bottom line by educating peopleMay 22 22:11
balzacDaemonFC: I don't think you ought to agree with chomskyMay 22 22:11
schestowitzhe slams Caterpillar tooMay 22 22:11
balzacbut he's been smeared badly for being a naive academic type and daring to share his political opinionsMay 22 22:12
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: Novell's toMay 22 22:12
schestowitzThey say soMay 22 22:12
DaemonFCwell, what I want to know, and if anyone could entertain me for a moment....May 22 22:12
schestowitzMS likewiseMay 22 22:12
schestowitzAnd Newham nowMay 22 22:12
schestowitzThey mentioned me in privateMay 22 22:12
DaemonFCis why self-proclaimed "liberals" who value freedom and democracyMay 22 22:12
mib_lvp5djyes, its the Novell issue that is hurting Linux in generalMay 22 22:12
balzacthen he gets attacked by a lawyer who doesn't care about academic standards and only seeks to persuade with emotional appeals and character attacksMay 22 22:13
schestowitzThe best stuff is in USENET+mirrorsMay 22 22:13
DaemonFCalways support fascists, terrorists, and the most ILLIBERAL and theorcratic regimes on Earth?May 22 22:13
DaemonFCcan you tell me that?May 22 22:13
schestowitzMe?May 22 22:13
balzacA geeky linguist gets attacked by a seasoned, demagog, lawyerMay 22 22:13
balzacI'm speaking of DerschowitzMay 22 22:13
DaemonFCthey aren't that much less  destructive than the far rightMay 22 22:13
DaemonFCthey're like 0 and 9 on an odometerMay 22 22:13
DaemonFCso far away they're closer than they appearMay 22 22:14
DaemonFCboth the left and the right are usually wrong, and the truth is somewhere in betweenMay 22 22:14
schestowitzWho's good then? Nixonites?May 22 22:14
mib_lvp5djthe trouble with the far left and right is when they value their positions more than libertiesMay 22 22:15
DaemonFCwell, they only ever deal with abolutesMay 22 22:15
balzacDaemonFC: it's called "realpolitik", I'd sayMay 22 22:15
DaemonFCthat's the problemMay 22 22:15
balzacDaemonFC: "right and left" is a stale and tired metaphorMay 22 22:15
balzacI'm neitherMay 22 22:16
DaemonFCIt's always (example), there SHOULD be a death penalty or shouldn't be, it's never let's look at what they didMay 22 22:16
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DaemonFCit's either fry everyoneMay 22 22:16
DaemonFCor be a total bleeding heartMay 22 22:16
balzacDaemonFC: nopeMay 22 22:16
schestowitzVancouver considers adopting free software and open standards in government < >May 22 22:16
balzacbut respect RMS choice to be a hacker, to not cut his hairMay 22 22:16
mib_lvp5djI think we digress into politics or religion, and need to keep to topic what this site is aboutMay 22 22:16
schestowitzRight and left is idicyMay 22 22:16
schestowitzLike there are negatives and positivesMay 22 22:17
schestowitzTruth and liesMay 22 22:17
balzache's built the strongest brand among software developersMay 22 22:17
DaemonFCI think if RMS likes the Palestinians so much he should go live THERE while he supports themMay 22 22:17
schestowitzHot and cold tapMay 22 22:17
schestowitzHawks and doves might make more senseMay 22 22:17
schestowitzWhere hawks are usually animalsMay 22 22:17
schestowitzTHinking with their pricksMay 22 22:17
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: yes, trueMay 22 22:18
DaemonFC 22 22:18
DaemonFCThat's what I'm using on the laptop currentlyMay 22 22:18
balzacDaemonFC: RMS is a world citizen. He is above the fray.May 22 22:18
DaemonFCOK, so he can go live somewhere else in the worldMay 22 22:19
DaemonFCproblem solvedMay 22 22:19
balzacHe wants computer users' freedom for everyoneMay 22 22:19
schestowitzIBM's latest large migration to Linux: 22 22:19
balzacDaemonFC: you can go live somewhere elseMay 22 22:19
DaemonFCI'm not a traitorMay 22 22:19
balzacRMS is all-american. Born in New York, lives in Boston, the cradle of the revolution.May 22 22:19
schestowitzTraitorMay 22 22:19
schestowitz?May 22 22:19
schestowitzHe  saves the country's reputationMay 22 22:19
balzacDaemonFC: who said you were a traitor?May 22 22:19
mib_lvp5djI am willing to move at some point if things get worse hereMay 22 22:19
schestowitzBy showing it's not all hawksMay 22 22:19
DaemonFCI'm saying I think RMS isMay 22 22:20
balzacand look, you're saying it from behind a pseudonymMay 22 22:20
balzacRMS publishes his opinions on Stallman.orgMay 22 22:20
balzacnot on, not on fsf.orgMay 22 22:20
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: watch what Chalmers Johnson saysMay 22 22:20
balzacand here you are, behind a pseudonym, saying you think RMS is a traitor to his countryMay 22 22:20
schestowitzTraitor=lacking faith in oilMay 22 22:21
balzacor did you mean, a traitor to his ethnic group?May 22 22:21
mib_lvp5djRMS does try to keep his political opinion separate from GNU, balzac, as you pointed outMay 22 22:21
DaemonFCnoMay 22 22:21
mib_lvp5djas we should tooMay 22 22:21
DaemonFChe's a traitor to the country he hides behindMay 22 22:21
DaemonFChe's a wussMay 22 22:21
balzacbecause he's a critic of Israel's foreign policy (a nation, not an ethnic group)May 22 22:21
balzacDaemonFC: look who's squeaking from behind anonymityMay 22 22:22
DaemonFCand he's a bigotMay 22 22:22
DaemonFChe supports a group that would murder meMay 22 22:22
DaemonFCwithout thinking twiceMay 22 22:22
balzacRoy, see what I've uncovered here?May 22 22:22
balzacsuch a weasel, harboring outrageous animosity towards RMSMay 22 22:22
balzacand wheedling his way in with technology talkMay 22 22:23
DaemonFCno he is the weaselMay 22 22:23
DaemonFCcause he'd never come say it to my faceMay 22 22:23
balzacand he'd probably never confirm his identityMay 22 22:23
balzacafter such outrageous crap he's saidMay 22 22:23
balzacme?May 22 22:23
balzacshare your identityMay 22 22:23
balzacdo you like to fight?May 22 22:23
DaemonFCwell, the guy has some pretty far out opinions and not only is he a traitor to the US, he's a damned bigotMay 22 22:24
schestowitzAnyway, back to  topic, guys..May 22 22:24
DaemonFCand he'll gladly cower behind the first amendmentMay 22 22:24
DaemonFCwhile he spews venomous hatredMay 22 22:24
balzacDick Cheney is a traitor to the united statesMay 22 22:24
DaemonFCnot of the bad guys, off the people they want to murderMay 22 22:24
balzacbut I have a feeling you admire Dick CheneyMay 22 22:24
DaemonFCof the people that get HANGED in IRANMay 22 22:24
DaemonFCnoMay 22 22:24
balzacBut DaemonFC look how you said yesterday that a radio talk show host should be shotMay 22 22:24
balzacand you really didn't mean itMay 22 22:25
DaemonFCI think RMS is just like Rush LimbaughMay 22 22:25
mib_lvp5djwhat was the topic?May 22 22:25
schestowitz 22 22:25
DaemonFConly on the other side of the dialMay 22 22:25
schestowitzSeems like a nice jobMay 22 22:25
balzacyou just meant to see if anyone would endorse your illegal and outrageous, inciteful languageMay 22 22:25
schestowitzbalzac: go for it!May 22 22:25
DaemonFCit's not illegalMay 22 22:25
balzacDaemonFC: what you said yesterday was not constitutionally protected speechMay 22 22:25
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: let's see....May 22 22:26
balzacit was dangerous to an individual's lifeMay 22 22:26
DaemonFCno more than Rush Limbaugh and Richard Stallman calling for me to be murderedMay 22 22:26
balzacand said from behind a pseudonymMay 22 22:26
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: "Chaos" [publicly logged]May 22 22:26
balzacDaemonFC: you're a real nut caseMay 22 22:26
DaemonFCno, they both root for the people that would murder meMay 22 22:26
DaemonFCthat's why there's no distinction between themMay 22 22:26
balzacI was quite right to be concerned about the possible harm to the reputation from BN from such a person as yourselfMay 22 22:26
balzacDaemonFC: wtf are you talking about?May 22 22:27
DaemonFCStallman roots for Taliban and other Muslims that want to kill meMay 22 22:27
balzacyou're crazyMay 22 22:27
DaemonFCRush Limbaugh is a favorite of hardliner ChristiansMay 22 22:27
DaemonFCthat want to kill meMay 22 22:27
DaemonFC:PMay 22 22:27
DaemonFCso I really don't make a distinction between them because they're both bat shit crazyMay 22 22:28
balzacRoy, for attacking Firefox, Ubuntu, comparing RMS to Rush Limbaugh, and worst of all, calling for a radio talk show host to be shot, DaemonFC has earned a ban.May 22 22:28
*schestowitz has changed the topic to: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged]May 22 22:28
schestowitzThe Future of Television (part II) < >May 22 22:29
balzacthat's my humble advice from a former political bloggerMay 22 22:29
mib_lvp5djyou guys are talking about politics, and even while I might agree mostly with both of you, I will not engage in this.  Its not the proper forumMay 22 22:29
schestowitzAgreed.May 22 22:29
DaemonFCno, everyone is just like "RMS, OMG!!!!1111 roflz!!"May 22 22:29
DaemonFCI don't know...May 22 22:29
balzacit is not the forum, but it's good to know what lurks beneath DaemonFCs attacks on leading GPL-licensed projectsMay 22 22:29
schestowitz 22 22:30
balzacan insane animosity for the author of the GPLMay 22 22:30
schestowitzGo for it6 ^^May 22 22:30
mib_lvp5djyou only make enemies talking about politics and religionMay 22 22:30
balzacthanks RoyMay 22 22:30
DaemonFCthat's not what's behind itMay 22 22:30
DaemonFCI just don't like him personallyMay 22 22:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: enough.May 22 22:30
mib_lvp5djI think we get that DaemonMay 22 22:30
balzacyour recommendation would be meaningful, but the salary probably wouldn't be enough, considering that Mr. Brown only gets like 70k, last I checkedMay 22 22:30
balzacanyway, this episode reinforces my "pragmatic paranoia" about agent provocateurs who will do their worst to your reputationMay 22 22:32
balzacfrom behind cover of anonymityMay 22 22:33
schestowitzEven Cisco Isn't Too Big to Lose [to the FSF] 22 22:33
balzacschestowitz: that'll be a good job for someone, but the salary cap is too low for me, and I wouldn't consider moving to Boston.May 22 22:34
balzacbut thanks for the suggestion.May 22 22:34
balzacalright, back to my work...May 22 22:35
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mib_lvp5djRoy, GNU/Linux cannot be stopped anymore by M$.  Even if the worst happened, like patent laws in Eu, and court cases, GNU/Linux would live on in other countries without those laws, or go underground.May 22 22:37
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mib_lvp5djM$ can only try to slow down adoption nowMay 22 22:38
schestowitzMicrosoft Jack spreads Linux FUD by posting forum material as though it's news: 22 22:40
DaemonFChmmmm "Boycott Coca Cola Company  for using paramilitaries to murder union organizers."May 22 22:41
*DaemonFC goes to grab some cokeMay 22 22:41
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: yes, it's winningMay 22 22:41
schestowitzSeen Carla's postMay 22 22:41
schestowitzMicrosoft is goign BALLISTICMay 22 22:41
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schestowitz 22 22:41
DaemonFCwell, that doesn't matterMay 22 22:41
schestowitz"The anti-Linux FUD has been flying thick and fast lately. It's not even interesting fresh FUD, but tired, worn-out old FUD. If you believe the headlines and all the masses of verbiage being emitted by Redmond's tame "tech" "reporter" battalions Linux desktop market share has dropped since 2001"May 22 22:42
DaemonFCall they have to do is make PCs that can't boot LinuxMay 22 22:42
schestowitz"that not having Photoshop, AutoCad, and other specialty, expensive high-end applications are deal-breakers even for people who never use them; and that users are getting stupider and more fearful, and therefore must be protected from frightening things like command-lines, skills, and knowledge."May 22 22:42
schestowitz"Now you know it's hogwash, and I know it's hogwash, and the silly people emitting all this nonsense have never even touched a Linux computer, except to poke it with a stick. Rather than wasting time countering this tired, moldy old baloney let's move on to my Common-Sense Easy-Peasy Guide to Adopting Linux. "May 22 22:42
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: some people in Microsoft need to be imprisoned for things they didMay 22 22:42
schestowitzThey have no shame in their slanderous attacksMay 22 22:43
DaemonFCmy guess is that if there were to be laws in the US against Linux, you would have those same motherboardsMay 22 22:43
schestowitzNot to mention fnding of SCOMay 22 22:43
DaemonFCEFI would make it easier to blacklist Linux systemsMay 22 22:43
schestowitzMystery virus strikes FBI, U.S. Marshals < >. They don't say which OSMay 22 22:44
DaemonFCdo they really have to?May 22 22:44
DaemonFC:)May 22 22:44
schestowitzesMay 22 22:44
schestowitzYesMay 22 22:44
schestowitzWhen people ae murdered for land, you don't blame the 'drink company'May 22 22:45
DaemonFCwhat one almost always gets the virus?May 22 22:45
schestowitzYou should tell which oneMay 22 22:45
DaemonFCand it's probably already known what virus it wasMay 22 22:46
DaemonFCI doubt it just STARTED spreading originating thereMay 22 22:46
DaemonFCit's probably an in the wild virus and they don't want to say which one or what version of what operating systemMay 22 22:46
DaemonFC555278 signatures in ClamAVMay 22 22:47
DaemonFCis it just me or does that count go up a couple hundred every day?May 22 22:48
mib_lvp5djit goes up, clamwin is very completeMay 22 22:48
mib_lvp5djits also in xp very slow scannerMay 22 22:48
mib_lvp5djbut it might have the best viral database of any antivirusMay 22 22:49
schestowitzHhee.May 22 22:50
schestowitzWatch this headline:May 22 22:50
schestowitz"Monta Vista Intros Linux 6 Version"May 22 22:50
schestowitz 22 22:50
schestowitzThis is one of the gutters out thereMay 22 22:50
schestowitzThe site just copies press releases and the staff doesn't even know what thhey write about May 22 22:51
schestowitzLinux 6 VersionMay 22 22:51
schestowitzMaybe they should just stick the press release and leave it untouchedMay 22 22:51
schestowitzNot change stuff and pretend it's an 'article'May 22 22:51
Balrog_that's some embedded linux versionMay 22 22:52
_boo_it works on boards like this one: 22 22:54
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schestowitzStill No Chrome For Linux? <;jsessionid=0PUIHYPCISVYQQSNDLPSKH0CJUNN2JVN >May 22 22:56
schestowitzBalrog_: yes, but it's MontaVista 6May 22 22:56
schestowitzNot Linux 6May 22 22:56
schestowitzOr '6 version"May 22 22:56
schestowitzIt's all just a press releaseMay 22 22:56
schestowitzThey massage it and pretend it's an article. That's all they ever do (90% of time)May 22 22:57
schestowitzCIOL does the same thing (India publication). TMCNet is from somewhere else, but some staff is from India tooMay 22 22:57
schestowitzNot that it mattersMay 22 22:57
_boo_it's good montavista released yet another versionMay 22 22:58
schestowitzBut these two publications emit fodderMay 22 22:58
_boo_those boards have rather weak supportMay 22 22:58
schestowitzDoes anybody want a puppy? 22 23:01
DaemonFCGoogle doesn't see Linux as a priorityMay 22 23:03
DaemonFCthey already have Linux through FirefoxMay 22 23:03
DaemonFCthey're trying to siphon Internet Explorer usersMay 22 23:03
schestowitzSony and Linux again: 22 23:03
mib_lvp5djDaemonFC, Google Android is basically LinuxMay 22 23:04
_boo_puppy is coolMay 22 23:04
schestowitzDaemonFC: Google harnesses Linux on the server and mobileMay 22 23:04
schestowitz<DaemonFC> Google doesn't see Linux as a prioriMay 22 23:04
schestowitzI call BSMay 22 23:04
DaemonFCThey have a heavily DRM-crippled Linux support on PS3May 22 23:04
DaemonFCschestowitz: What I mean is every copy of Firefox defaults to Google SearchMay 22 23:05
schestowitzBrin uses GNU/Linux on the desktopMay 22 23:05
schestowitzSince foreverMay 22 23:05
_boo_mib_lvp5dj, google android has "google" written all ova itMay 22 23:05
mib_lvp5djboo, is puppy still like linspire was, still run as "root"?May 22 23:05
DaemonFCand Android uses Linux because it's thereMay 22 23:05
DaemonFCthey could have used BSD and done the sameMay 22 23:05
_boo_mib_lvp5dj as good as i remember, yesMay 22 23:05
DaemonFCLinspire 6 didn't run as rootMay 22 23:06
_boo_and it looks like win95May 22 23:06
DaemonFCit used sudo, like UbuntuMay 22 23:06
mib_lvp5djwhich has always been my objection to puppy. although its goodMay 22 23:06
schestowitzHigh praises for Dellnux: (A+ for Dell's new Ubuntu Linux netbook)May 22 23:06
DaemonFCI downloaded Linspire throught a torrent a couple of timesMay 22 23:06
DaemonFCLinspire 6 was.....alrightMay 22 23:06
mib_lvp5djthx's Daemon, I stopped following Linspire long agoMay 22 23:07
DaemonFCthere's a number of things they could have done betterMay 22 23:07
schestowitzPardus uses root tooMay 22 23:07
DaemonFCbut it was better than KubuntuMay 22 23:07
DaemonFCI'll give them that muchMay 22 23:07
mib_lvp5djnot to myself, avoid distro's that setup as root by defaultMay 22 23:07
mib_lvp5dj*neotMay 22 23:07
mib_lvp5djnoteMay 22 23:08
schestowitztrmanco: quiet in COLA, noise-wise (yes, it sounds funny)May 22 23:08
DaemonFCit's ok if they have you set a root passwordMay 22 23:08
DaemonFCbut if they encourage you to log in as root, run awayMay 22 23:08
_boo_mib_lvp5dj, it's mostly for flash and almost avoids writesMay 22 23:08
DaemonFCUbuntu bans you for mentioning rootMay 22 23:08
mib_lvp5djwhat better way to get linux into the same type of malware problems as windows than to have distros setup running as rootMay 22 23:08
DaemonFCeven though there are cases where sudo does not work rightMay 22 23:09
schestowitzHere is the tool that NYT dumped Microsoft for: 22 23:09
DaemonFCgranted those are rare, but sudo does not obsolete the root accountMay 22 23:09
_boo_mib_lvp5dj, you also have to kill repositoriesMay 22 23:09
mib_lvp5djif enough linux users run as root on the internet, then malware will be written for it at a much faster rateMay 22 23:09
DaemonFCnoMay 22 23:09
DaemonFCwhat I mean isMay 22 23:09
mib_lvp5djBoo, good pointMay 22 23:10
DaemonFCit's OK to open a root terminal emulatorMay 22 23:10
DaemonFCbut don't log in as root graphicallyMay 22 23:10
_boo_yeah, i always do thatMay 22 23:10
_boo_not graphically of courseMay 22 23:10
schestowitzKeep the users powerfless on own computerMay 22 23:10
DaemonFCUbuntu expects know nothing users to mess up the system if they're handed powerful toolsMay 22 23:11
schestowitzUnless qualified or entering this modeMay 22 23:11
DaemonFCso they hide away as much of that as they canMay 22 23:11
schestowitzUAC is cheap attempt to copy sudoMay 22 23:11
schestowitzAnd MS patented suto/UACMay 22 23:11
mib_lvp5djit the drive by malware on the internet we have to fear in the future.  Those running as root will be the first targets.  After trojans of courseMay 22 23:11
schestowitzThe USPTO is corrupt because it extends scope for $$$$$May 22 23:11
DaemonFCUAC works something like gksudo or kdesu or whatever is your poisonMay 22 23:11
schestowitzAyeMay 22 23:11
schestowitzJust GUIisedMay 22 23:12
DaemonFCthere's cases where UAC fails, there's cases where sudo failsMay 22 23:12
mib_lvp5djsudo sort of reminds me of Mac OS X, in that you do not know you are a limited user by defaultMay 22 23:12
DaemonFCsetuid is the biggest disaster in UNIX file permissions everMay 22 23:12
DaemonFC:)May 22 23:12
*schestowitz so tried. GOnna make some teaMay 22 23:12
schestowitz*tiredMay 22 23:12
DaemonFCWindows didn't copy thatMay 22 23:12
DaemonFCfor obvious reasonsMay 22 23:12
DaemonFCso there's gotchas either way you goMay 22 23:13
DaemonFCUAC is far better than XP-style administratorsMay 22 23:13
mib_lvp5djkeep the spirits up Roy, its only when you are attacked by the shills and fanboi's that you know that you are on the right track.May 22 23:13
DaemonFCit at least lets you lock down the most potentially damaging operationsMay 22 23:13
DaemonFCbut it won't catch everythingMay 22 23:13
_Goblinnoticed a little rumor about Microsoft removing the 3 app hobbling from starter...May 22 23:14
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: yes, something like that usuallyMay 22 23:14
DaemonFCusers should remember to NEVER elevate anything that they didn't start at that momentMay 22 23:14
DaemonFCand ALWAYS look to see what is requesting elevationMay 22 23:14
schestowitzI toned down the SUSE-hostile sideMay 22 23:14
schestowitzGot MASSIVELY attacked by SUSE fans a year agoMay 22 23:15
_boo_starter edition sounds like totally castrated and hit in the head with a hammer 10 timesMay 22 23:15
mib_lvp5djHey Goblin, chips here.  Interesting  about the 3 apps, the OEM's must be revolting.  I PMed the file to Roy alreadyMay 22 23:15
schestowitz_Goblin: yes, LinuxMay 22 23:15
DaemonFCOpenSuse is pretty decent, but it does have a lot of .Net crap that can make the system slooooooooooooooow downMay 22 23:15
DaemonFC:)May 22 23:15
schestowitz_Goblin: 22 23:16
DaemonFCif you get rid of all of that the system perks up againMay 22 23:16
DaemonFCbut damnMay 22 23:16
schestowitz_boo_: they sorted out the popupMay 22 23:16
_boo_how slow is .net vs java?May 22 23:16
mib_lvp5djmaybe an article on the good that Novell does Roy?  The flip side, we need Novell to destroy SCO anywayMay 22 23:16
DaemonFC_boo_: .Net is a lot faster on WindowsMay 22 23:16
_Goblin@roy: Like it!May 22 23:16
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: I write about SCOMay 22 23:16
DaemonFCbecause Windows uses a better compilerMay 22 23:16
schestowitzand Novell's driver workMay 22 23:16
DaemonFC(than Mono)May 22 23:16
schestowitzWe do good Novell news once a weekMay 22 23:17
DaemonFCI still try to stay clear of eitherMay 22 23:17
_boo_DaemonFC, i didn't see it being fast on windowsMay 22 23:17
schestowitzSo I'm fair to them where possibleMay 22 23:17
schestowitzNOVL's results due on 26th IIRCMay 22 23:17
schestowitzFrom memoryMay 22 23:17
_boo_ati drivers have .net based configuratorMay 22 23:17
schestowitzBe ready for the bombMay 22 23:17
mib_lvp5djyes, but the headline should be more advocate towards them, throw them a bone once in awhileMay 22 23:17
schestowitzThey had NO CONTRACTSMay 22 23:17
schestowitzJust nothingMay 22 23:17
_boo_adiirc irc client is .netMay 22 23:17
DaemonFCOn Windows .Net by a tad, on Linux, JAVA by a landslideMay 22 23:17
_boo_and they are effing slowMay 22 23:17
schestowitzRevenue could drop 30%+ y-2-yMay 22 23:17
DaemonFCI'd still use Java for reasons other than performanceMay 22 23:17
DaemonFCJava has a better security model for oneMay 22 23:18
_boo_which .net app is fast?May 22 23:18
mib_lvp5djNovell would have been gone without the M$ money from their agreementMay 22 23:18
schestowitzWhen Novell lets the gauntlet down, it'll be big due to procrastinationMay 22 23:18
schestowitzNovell deludes itselfMay 22 23:18
DaemonFC_boo_: CDBurnerXP is reasonably fast on XP or 32-bit VistaMay 22 23:18
schestowitzThe turning point ain't around the cornerMay 22 23:18
DaemonFCit has bugs on 64-bit Windows thoughMay 22 23:18
DaemonFCunrelated to C#May 22 23:18
schestowitzand SUSE lost the distro warMay 22 23:18
_boo_yeah, cdburnerxp is goodMay 22 23:19
DaemonFC:PMay 22 23:19
schestowitzIts community shrank tooMay 22 23:19
mib_lvp5dj_Goblin  did you read the email?May 22 23:19
mib_lvp5djCDBurnerXP is good programMay 22 23:19
DaemonFCPaint.Net isn't badMay 22 23:19
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: MS needs Novell to keep goingMay 22 23:19
_Goblinyep cheers!  I havent had time to respond yet...but thanks and will doMay 22 23:19
schestowitzBut MS is collapsingMay 22 23:19
schestowitzSo another cash infusion is not likelyMay 22 23:19
schestowitzThey injected 200m into Novell back in AugustMay 22 23:19
DaemonFCthere's a few decent apps out there, but nothing really helps the fact that .Net runtime is fucking hugeMay 22 23:19
DaemonFClmaoMay 22 23:19
schestowitzAtop over a quarter of a billionMay 22 23:20
schestowitzMS uses Red Hat mainly vs Red HatMay 22 23:20
DaemonFCand you've got nearly 2 gigs of runtime for maybe 100 megs of decent appsMay 22 23:20
DaemonFCRed Hat has good stuffMay 22 23:20
schestowitzBN runs on 'Red Hat'May 22 23:20
schestowitzMinus the logosMay 22 23:20
schestowitz :-)May 22 23:20
_boo_seems like .net is the reason to use ssdsMay 22 23:20
DaemonFCIt's expensive to get it from themMay 22 23:21
mib_lvp5djI agree Roy, they do need Novell to kept going.  But I worry about the Unix copyrights and patents that Novell has.  SCO/M$ tried to use them against IBM/Novell.autozone and LinuxMay 22 23:21
DaemonFCbut CentOS gets most of it eventuallyMay 22 23:21
DaemonFCwell, legal precedentMay 22 23:21
DaemonFCthat Novell setMay 22 23:21
DaemonFCmay discourage them from making the same argumentsMay 22 23:21
mib_lvp5djNet is something I would not even wished on a windows fanfoiMay 22 23:21
mib_lvp5djfanboiMay 22 23:21
DaemonFCanyone else tried PC-BSD?May 22 23:22
DaemonFCit's not badMay 22 23:22
DaemonFCno 64-bit Nvidia drivers thoughMay 22 23:22
DaemonFCso won't be going on my desktopMay 22 23:22
mib_lvp5djand its advantage over linux?May 22 23:22
DaemonFCmeh, more stableMay 22 23:22
DaemonFChas a lot of stuff ready to go out of the boxMay 22 23:22
_boo_and no drivers for video cardMay 22 23:22
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DaemonFC32-bit Nvidia drivers are thereMay 22 23:22
DaemonFCNvidia doesn't do 64-bit BSD driversMay 22 23:23
schestowitzSun Java System Communications Express security advisory  < >May 22 23:23
_boo_mkay, it's a bit usable thenMay 22 23:23
mib_lvp5djMepis is easy install for video drivers, dual monitor ATI and NividiaMay 22 23:23
mib_lvp5djmost likely some others as wellMay 22 23:23
DaemonFCoh, PC-BSD has ZFSMay 22 23:23
DaemonFCheheMay 22 23:23
DaemonFCI have ZFS on my laptop hard diskMay 22 23:23
mib_lvp5djZFS might be goodMay 22 23:23
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: same in MandrivaMay 22 23:23
schestowitzMulti-headMay 22 23:23
DaemonFCand it has a Linux compatibility layerMay 22 23:23
Balrog_hopefully Oracle will dual license itMay 22 23:23
mib_lvp5djlinus thinks soMay 22 23:24
schestowitzNvidia GUI at leastMay 22 23:24
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: can you /nick chips ?May 22 23:24
DaemonFC 22 23:24
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj is hard for me to remember identityMay 22 23:24
DaemonFCKDE 4 is actually fairly stable on BSDMay 22 23:24
DaemonFCfor some reasonMay 22 23:24
ziggyfishI have run ZFS before, but I needed to resize my partition, and ZFS didn't support it. so don't use it anymoreMay 22 23:25
MinceRgnMay 22 23:25
mib_lvp5djRoy, your link has no username and password today on the front page, so I could notMay 22 23:25
DaemonFCit also lets you use FreeBSD Ports or PBI installersMay 22 23:25
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DaemonFCPBI lets you double click on a package to install itMay 22 23:25
ziggyfishnice, must admit, I prefer FreeBSD over LinuxMay 22 23:26
MinceRgdebi lets you single click a package to install it :>May 22 23:26
DaemonFCwhere you can get it to work, FreeBSD is preferableMay 22 23:26
MinceRgetting it to work is the hard partMay 22 23:27
DaemonFCnot reallyMay 22 23:27
ziggyfishDaemonFC, I've never had a problem with BSD (for a server)May 22 23:27
DaemonFCiwell, with PC-BSD anywayMay 22 23:27
DaemonFChas drivers dor a lot of thingsMay 22 23:27
oiaohmI have used both Linux and BSD for servers.May 22 23:28
ziggyfishalso I find BSD to be 'better quality' then LinuxMay 22 23:28
mib_lvp5djmyself, I tend to try "live cd" linux/bsd installations.  If they don't have one, I skip them anymore.  Suse I skip for other reasons.  Those that run as root, I skip.May 22 23:28
schestowitzGoogle Chrome 2.0 released < > Google should hurry up with Chromium..May 22 23:29
taconedebian itself runs on bds nowMay 22 23:29
taconecan runMay 22 23:29
oiaohmThat depends on the Linux ziggyfish.May 22 23:29
ziggyfishoiaohm, trueMay 22 23:29
MinceRi find gnu/linux to be better quality than *bsdMay 22 23:29
oiaohmStablity using correct quality software is quality.May 22 23:29
_boo_do you guys use chrome?May 22 23:29
schestowitz> <mib_lvp5dj> Roy, your link has no username and password today on the front page, so I could notMay 22 23:29
ziggyfishschestowitz, does it have linux support, jetMay 22 23:29
schestowitzWhat do you mean?May 22 23:30
oiaohmI am not bsd or gnu bias.May 22 23:30
ziggyfish*yetMay 22 23:30
_GoblinI messed with the alpha of chrome, had no luckMay 22 23:30
oiaohmSome of my Linux's are mixed beasts.May 22 23:30
mib_lvp5djI have chrome on this Mepis laptop, its fast, but I still run Firefox mostlyMay 22 23:30
oiaohmSome gnu software some bsd.May 22 23:30
oiaohmFor core parts.May 22 23:30
taconeschestowitz: they're doing a nice work with chromiumMay 22 23:30
oiaohmIe using what parts work the best.May 22 23:30
taconethe problem is that they started late.May 22 23:30
taconeand you can install it easier in linux than in mac osx i guess.May 22 23:31
mib_lvp5djno adblock yet for chrome.  guess I could install something like junkbuster proxyMay 22 23:31
oiaohmchrome was meant to be just a experment.May 22 23:31
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: what about "username and password"?May 22 23:31
schestowitzDid we mess s/t up?May 22 23:31
mib_lvp5djyes, its still daily builds I thinkMay 22 23:31
taconei have some visits from linux/chromium in my blogMay 22 23:31
DaemonFCChrome is easyMay 22 23:31
DaemonFCuse BFilterMay 22 23:31
DaemonFCor PrivoxyMay 22 23:32
oiaohmSecuirty features of chrome will reappear in firefox.May 22 23:32
DaemonFCBFilter is betterMay 22 23:32
ziggyfishI have run chrome in Windows, and thought it was crap compared to FirefoxMay 22 23:32
taconeit's so fast that using epiphany doesn't makes any sense anymoreMay 22 23:32
_boo_i don't see any reason to use chrome, it even ain't got adblockMay 22 23:32
mib_lvp5djRoy,  sure username chips_b_malroyMay 22 23:32
mib_lvp5djboo, theres more than one way to adblockMay 22 23:33
_boo_you mean built in chrome there's a way?May 22 23:33
taconechromium issue is that it has no extension at allMay 22 23:33
taconehope firefox can catch up with its speedMay 22 23:33
mib_lvp5djno, junkbuster is a proxy, and there are several for linuxMay 22 23:33
_boo_then it's uselessMay 22 23:33
oiaohm  taconeMay 22 23:33
schestowitzmib_lvp5dj: type "/nick chips_"May 22 23:34
taconefor sure chromium brought a lot of competition. that's good.May 22 23:34
oiaohmchromium gets some of the speed from multi process.May 22 23:34
*mib_lvp5dj is now known as chips_May 22 23:34
schestowitzOKMay 22 23:34
chips_thxs RoyMay 22 23:34
DaemonFCziggyfish: use the dev channelMay 22 23:34
DaemonFCuse ChromeChannelChangerMay 22 23:34
schestowitzThere are many mib usersMay 22 23:34
schestowitzMakes it hard to remember who is whoMay 22 23:34
tacone_boo_: ?May 22 23:34
_boo_first time i used chrome it wasn't even startingMay 22 23:35
_boo_then i removed it foreverMay 22 23:35
taconeoiaohm: i'm aware with mozilla attempts.May 22 23:35
taconei'm still waiting to see the final resultMay 22 23:35
tacone_boo_: on ubuntu there's a pre-compiled PPAMay 22 23:36
taconei can say it's pretty cool. seems to work, and fast.May 22 23:36
*_boo_ suspects that chrome is developed fast only because it doesn't do what ff doesMay 22 23:36
taconebetter chromium than epiphanyMay 22 23:36
oiaohmff does have problems _boo_May 22 23:36
DaemonFCTake up all your RAM and crash?May 22 23:36
DaemonFC:)May 22 23:36
_boo_oh yeah, which ones?May 22 23:36
DaemonFCTake up all your RAM and crash?May 22 23:37
DaemonFC;)May 22 23:37
_boo_i never ran into anyMay 22 23:37
DaemonFCmmhmMay 22 23:37
DaemonFCFirefox bloats to 500-9000 megs of used RAMMay 22 23:37
DaemonFCafter being open for several hoursMay 22 23:37
taconefirst builds of chromium used to make the window appear 0.5 second BEFORE your mouse click :PMay 22 23:37
_boo_noMay 22 23:37
oiaohmlack of good system for spliting tabs into independant threads.May 22 23:37
DaemonFCSeamonkey doesn't even have that problemMay 22 23:37
_boo_i have it always openMay 22 23:37
taconechromium won't be cheap in ram as wellMay 22 23:37
taconebut let it at least be fast.May 22 23:37
_boo_and it takes: 251mbMay 22 23:37
_boo_and it's like opened for daysMay 22 23:38
_boo_and browser games in thereMay 22 23:38
oiaohmLack of good system to split javascript into threads.May 22 23:38
taconereally, a fast browser makes everything different.May 22 23:38
oiaohmand processes.May 22 23:38
oiaohmto contain memory leaksMay 22 23:38
taconei just want the speed along with FF extensions :)May 22 23:38
oiaohmThat is something chromium got wrong.May 22 23:38
_boo_3.5b is fast, oiaohmMay 22 23:38
ziggyfishoiaohm,  I though firefox 3.5 was meant to do that was wellMay 22 23:39
_boo_ffMay 22 23:39
_boo_not as fast as safari, but safari hangs system when it traverses my drive for no reasonMay 22 23:39
taconei believe chromium has tweaks on the http settingsMay 22 23:39
_boo_while sending something irrelevantMay 22 23:40
taconestuff that has been around for ages to be used on firefox as wellMay 22 23:40
chips_chrome is easy to install just unzip it, and drag the file named chrome to the desktop and link it there.  Its still an alpha. 22 23:40
DaemonFCyou ever notice that every download for Mac is twice the size of the Windows version?May 22 23:40
DaemonFCyummy "Universal" binary goodnessMay 22 23:40
DaemonFC:DMay 22 23:40
taconesighMay 22 23:40
chips_but no make, make config, installMay 22 23:41
taconei'm on mac nowMay 22 23:41
oiaohmProper multi process by current time line will be in firefox 4.0 or the like.May 22 23:41
taconei don't like it.May 22 23:41
_boo_DaemonFC, it's because it's twice better for shitty configs of macsMay 22 23:41
DaemonFC# Windows, English  (13 MB)May 22 23:41
DaemonFC# Linux GTK2, English (14 MB)May 22 23:41
DaemonFC# Mac OS X, English (23 MB)May 22 23:41
oiaohmziggyfish: 3.5 improves the java engine and software leak containment.  But nothing compares to having a process where a run away javascript can just be killed.May 22 23:41
DaemonFC:PMay 22 23:41
DaemonFCfor SeaMonkey 1.1.16May 22 23:42
_boo_i can't even understand how that weak configs of macs are sold at all for that priceMay 22 23:42
taconedownloading the mac versionMay 22 23:42
DaemonFCexactlyMay 22 23:42
DaemonFCtacone: Get the 2.0 build of SeaMonkeyMay 22 23:42
DaemonFCif you want to try Seamonkey outMay 22 23:42
DaemonFCtest build that isMay 22 23:43
DaemonFCmuch betterMay 22 23:43
ziggyfishoiaohm, I do know, in firefox 3.0, that after some time the browser will allow you to kill the current javascript operation.May 22 23:43
DaemonFCSeamonkey's UI is unchanged prety much since I started using Mozilla Suite in 1999May 22 23:43
DaemonFC:PMay 22 23:43
ziggyfishI think it's something like 3 minsMay 22 23:43
taconei don't understandt the seamonkey conceptMay 22 23:43
DaemonFCbut it has newest GeckoMay 22 23:43
taconethey claim seamonkey is there because firefox code sucksMay 22 23:43
DaemonFCand the addon manager :DMay 22 23:43
DaemonFCFirefox does suckMay 22 23:44
DaemonFCthey jettisoned the suite and managed to just end up gutting features that real people useMay 22 23:44
ziggyfishI've never liked seamonkeyMay 22 23:44
DaemonFCand it ended up working slowerMay 22 23:44
oiaohmziggyfish: there is a difference between how firefox 3.0 does it and having it has a process.May 22 23:44
taconei'd just have asked seamonkey devs to bloody beat ff devsMay 22 23:44
DaemonFCI use quite a few extensions in Seamonkey thoughMay 22 23:45
oiaohmOS core can take out the trouble maker and leave firefox standing as a process.May 22 23:45
DaemonFCAdblock Plus, BetterPrivacy, Newsfox, Noscript, Tab Clicking Options, User Agent SwitcherMay 22 23:45
DaemonFCbetween Adblock, Noscript, and BetterPrivacy, you can get rid of most of the annoying crap out thereMay 22 23:46
DaemonFCwithout crippling too muchMay 22 23:46
schestowitzBritish Rail Operator Tweets Delays < >May 22 23:47
DaemonFCaccording to my search engine hits, I'm getting a lot of people looking up information about IE 8May 22 23:47
ziggyfishoiaohm, there are problems with that though, like process startup speed and communicationMay 22 23:47
chips_I use flashblock as most flash is advertisementsMay 22 23:47
schestowitzSeamonkey sounds promising thenMay 22 23:47
schestowitzBut Firefox has too many valuable extensionMay 22 23:47
schestowitz*sMay 22 23:48
DaemonFCNoScript blocks Flash, you click on it to make it playMay 22 23:48
oiaohmOn linux process startup costs the same as starting a thread.May 22 23:48
schestowitzand other data that's tied to itMay 22 23:48
schestowitzAlso GearsMay 22 23:48
DaemonFCschestowitz: It can use most Firefox extensionsMay 22 23:48
DaemonFCnot themesMay 22 23:48
DaemonFCbut almost everything elseMay 22 23:48
oiaohmintercommunication on Linux can be done the same as if it was a thread.May 22 23:48
chips_I don't need no script for linux, and don't use windows really on the interentMay 22 23:48
oiaohmOn windows there is a problem ziggyfish.May 22 23:48
schestowitzDaemonFC: run it on Linux thenMay 22 23:48
taconegears sucksMay 22 23:49
DaemonFCscripts can do annoying things, drop cookies, and allow malware vendors to exploit security flaws in the browserMay 22 23:49
schestowitztacone: hardly used itMay 22 23:49
taconei haven't seen a worth use of gears since nowMay 22 23:49
schestowitzI don't fall into cloudsMay 22 23:49
schestowitz'Clouds'May 22 23:49
schestowitzMeaning SaaSMay 22 23:49
ziggyfishoiaohm, did not know that, always though Linux had the same problem as windows when it came to process startupMay 22 23:49
schestowitzMeaning binaries on remote serverMay 22 23:49
taconeeven gmail/greader offline feature works shitMay 22 23:49
schestowitzI put my programs on schestowitz.comMay 22 23:49
taconewell, the gmail one is getting better. i could use that on the macMay 22 23:49
schestowitzWhat about Zimbra?May 22 23:50
DaemonFCI'm ambivalent about cloud-ish stuffMay 22 23:50
taconebut the (probably outdated) offline gmail for linux wouldn't let me loginMay 22 23:50
ziggyfishschestowitz, I use to use Zimbra a lotMay 22 23:50
DaemonFCI'd never lock up anything important in "the cloud"May 22 23:50
schestowitzWe should stop calling it clouds reallyMay 22 23:50
schestowitzIt's marketing hypeMay 22 23:50
oiaohmziggyfish: Linux lack of problems with processes is why gcc runs so much faster on Linux than windows.May 22 23:50
schestowitzHow to daemonise for the danger by namingMay 22 23:50
DaemonFCWeb 2.0May 22 23:50
DaemonFCis that better?May 22 23:50
DaemonFC:DMay 22 23:50
schestowitzLet's twist thw world cloudMay 22 23:50
schestowitzTo insinuate somethingMay 22 23:50
schestowitzLike "Vista 7"May 22 23:50
schestowitz"Clout computing"May 22 23:50
DaemonFCthe fog?May 22 23:50
DaemonFCperhaps?May 22 23:50
DaemonFCfog computingMay 22 23:51
schestowitzFoggy computingMay 22 23:51
DaemonFCfor when you have no idea where your data really isMay 22 23:51
taconejail computing ?May 22 23:51
DaemonFC:)May 22 23:51
schestowitzFog is goodMay 22 23:51
ziggyfishschestowitz, Zimbra is not what I was thinking it wasMay 22 23:51
schestowitzLike cloudMay 22 23:51
schestowitzBut bad connotationMay 22 23:51
taconejail eitherMay 22 23:51
DaemonFCI get credit for that :PMay 22 23:51
schestowitzCloud and fog are steamMay 22 23:51
DaemonFCheheheMay 22 23:51
taconejail is more descriptiveMay 22 23:51
schestowitzCloud makes rain (good for crops)May 22 23:51
taconeair hour computingMay 22 23:51
DaemonFCyeah, but Fog plays on the Cloud termMay 22 23:51
schestowitzfog = low clouds -- bad for planes, cars navigation etcMay 22 23:52
schestowitzI like "Fog"May 22 23:52
schestowitzI will use thatMay 22 23:52
taconewe should ask for cvs export of all the data in the cloudsMay 22 23:52
schestowitzSome try itMay 22 23:52
schestowitzMS and Amazon won't joinMay 22 23:52
schestowitzThere's LOAF in identi.caMay 22 23:53
DaemonFC"Cause you never know where your data is in the fog"May 22 23:53
taconesnow computing: let our data fall back to usMay 22 23:53
schestowitzBut it's limitedMay 22 23:53
ziggyfishnot many people I talk to like cloud computingMay 22 23:53
schestowitzI want to d/l my own dataMay 22 23:53
schestowitzQuit importa/exportMay 22 23:53
schestowitzDigg should have that tooMay 22 23:53
_boo_ziggyfish, 'cause you can't trust cloudsMay 22 23:53
schestowitzAnd propellerMay 22 23:53
DaemonFCMicrosoft loves the idea of turning office into a web appMay 22 23:53
DaemonFCcause then they can just subscribe you to itMay 22 23:53
schestowitzI submitted almost 30,000 (!!) pages therMay 22 23:53
taconeDaemonFC: too bad they suck at web appsMay 22 23:53
schestowitzYesMay 22 23:53
DaemonFCthey never have to worry about anyone skipping a versionMay 22 23:53
schestowitzNew biz modelMay 22 23:53
schestowitzThey wanted subs for desktop appsMay 22 23:54
schestowitzNot simple to implementMay 22 23:54
DaemonFCcourse notMay 22 23:54
schestowitzThey biuild online Office while mocking GoogleMay 22 23:54
schestowitzBecause Google Apps is well aheadMay 22 23:54
oiaohm ziggyfish look at the cost difference in cycles to start a process on Linux compared to Vista.May 22 23:54
schestowitzUntil they are ready they'll mock Fog computingMay 22 23:54
taconeif they go online, they battle on the same groundMay 22 23:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: Subscription for desktop apps sounds like you're being fuckedMay 22 23:54
taconenot sure about the winnerMay 22 23:54
DaemonFCsubscription for office can be twisted into "a service"May 22 23:54
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taconegoogle is everything gratis. ms is: you pay, and we let you use 3 apps at the same timeMay 22 23:55
DaemonFCGoogle isn't freeMay 22 23:55
DaemonFCnothing is freeMay 22 23:55
taconebetter viewed with ie8May 22 23:55
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DaemonFCeventually they'll toss the "click pennies" explanationMay 22 23:55
schestowitz 22 23:55
DaemonFCand demand license feesMay 22 23:55
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schestowitzThat's a good startMay 22 23:55
chips_Is M$ going broke, or are they borrowing money (cheap to borrow now) because they want to 1. buy back Bill's and Steve's shares, or 2. a Yahoo buyout is soon?May 22 23:56
DaemonFCschestowitz: What is it?May 22 23:56
DaemonFCThis XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.May 22 23:56
taconei think i need an account.May 22 23:56
taconeok, offline time. laterMay 22 23:56
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chips_or 3. to pay off Eu fines that are comingMay 22 23:57
oiaohmchips_: more appears as going broke cutting back on giving out cheap software to schools and the like is a sign of that.May 22 23:57
ziggyfishoiaohm, 719K (Linux) - 5,376K (Windows), that's a big differenceMay 22 23:57
schestowitzchips_: you tell meMay 22 23:57
DaemonFC 22 23:57
DaemonFCThe Obama administration's efforts to craft what it calls a "preventive detention" plan for suspected terrorists will face constitutional challenges similar to those raised against the Bush administration's policies.May 22 23:58
chips_Roy, I am not sureMay 22 23:58
oiaohmziggyfish: bsd some versions are slightly faster than Linux at starting a process.May 22 23:58
oiaohmSo that is not even comparing to the fastest out thereMay 22 23:58
schestowitzchips_: keep an eyeMay 22 23:58
schestowitzI wrote a lot about itMay 22 23:58
schestowitzSince 2006May 22 23:59
chips_first thing I cannot trust M$ to tell the truth, even on little things, they seem to delight in lying.May 22 23:59
schestowitzchips_: 22 23:59
chips_yes, I have seen thoseMay 22 23:59
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schestowitzThat can occupy you for hours of readingMay 22 23:59
schestowitzI have many, many linksMay 22 23:59
chips_already hasMay 22 23:59

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