IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 23rd, 2009

schestowitzSo this isn't me sitting in front of blank pages and writing "MWAhaha! MS is theh doomed!!1"May 23 00:00
DaemonFCThe ACLU is having to sue the Obama administration as much as they sued BushMay 23 00:00
DaemonFCnothing has changedMay 23 00:00
DaemonFC:PMay 23 00:00
schestowitzNopeMay 23 00:00
schestowitzChange of leaderMay 23 00:00
schestowitzde factoMay 23 00:00
DaemonFCthe only difference is which team jacket they have onMay 23 00:00
chips_M$ is still run by BillMay 23 00:00
DaemonFCand a few fringe issuesMay 23 00:01
chips_Steve is just his errand boyMay 23 00:01
DaemonFChttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521307,00.htmlMay 23 00:01
DaemonFCJury Convicts Mother Who Prayed for Daughter Instead of Treating Her Fatal DiabetesMay 23 00:01
ziggyfishbrb, in 30 minsMay 23 00:01
DaemonFCwell goodMay 23 00:01
schestowitzDifferent puppet, same strings, same Rockefeller et al behind the tiny, miniature stageMay 23 00:01
DaemonFCabout timeMay 23 00:01
chips_Robber BaronsMay 23 00:01
schestowitzchips_: yes, Bill is spiritually in chargeMay 23 00:01
schestowitzHe's meeting people re: MSMay 23 00:02
schestowitzWhile peddling bribes using the 'charity' vehicleMay 23 00:02
schestowitzRockefeller did EXACTLY the same thing and were bustedMay 23 00:02
schestowitzBut the press does not wish to learn (and maybe the editors shoot it down)May 23 00:02
chips_he is also a part time employee, the chairman of the board, and the largest voting shareholder, who appointed his friend as succeserMay 23 00:02
schestowitzSome journalis were bold enough to publish analysis of the Gates Foundary redentlyMay 23 00:02
schestowitzCritiques from professorsMay 23 00:03
DaemonFCthere's a reason the news companies are tankingMay 23 00:03
*mib_exe7ns (i=bd2e1bb4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-22bb19d1625158ec) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 00:03
DaemonFCpeople know they're being lied toMay 23 00:03
schestowitzGates is small poptato in this gameMay 23 00:03
schestowitzHe is not yet where he wants to beMay 23 00:03
schestowitzThere are more powerful dynastiesMay 23 00:03
chips_the connection with MSNBC and the other media outlets with M$ and Gates is not something the mainstream media coversMay 23 00:03
schestowitzNoMay 23 00:04
schestowitzThey can'tMay 23 00:04
*mib_exe7ns is now known as seller_liarMay 23 00:04
schestowitzThey don't fight one anotherMay 23 00:04
oiaohmIBM Orcale and Cisco systems are more  powerful than MS.May 23 00:04
seller_liarI was thinking....May 23 00:04
schestowitzIt just leaves them all burnedMay 23 00:04
schestowitzLike wreseling with pigsMay 23 00:04
schestowitzEveryone just gets muddyMay 23 00:04
seller_liarMiguel says " I love .net"May 23 00:04
seller_liarbutMay 23 00:04
oiaohmMS without hardware companies is nothing.May 23 00:04
schestowitzoiaohm: their business is sustainableMay 23 00:04
seller_liarHe does not say a word about dotgnu projectMay 23 00:04
schestowitzIBM's staffis like FOUR times bigger than MSMay 23 00:05
schestowitzSamsung? Almost TEN times bigger than MSMay 23 00:05
seller_liarNovell de Icaza only speaks about mono and .netMay 23 00:05
schestowitzTo put thing in perspectiveMay 23 00:05
chips_Miguel is a tool of Novell, to get M$ money for their dealMay 23 00:05
schestowitzMS is fragileMay 23 00:05
seller_liarbut does not speak about dotgnuMay 23 00:05
schestowitzWindows Vista 7 will disappoint and Microsoft will go FRANTICMay 23 00:05
schestowitzseller_liar: in his blog --yeahMay 23 00:05
schestowitzThat's the next stage'May 23 00:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: They're already pimping Windows 7 on QVCMay 23 00:05
chips_yes, MS is a house of cards, when their Windows OS cannot be installed on OEM machines, their world will endMay 23 00:06
DaemonFCmy mom was watching it the other dayMay 23 00:06
schestowitzFirst branching out of KDEMay 23 00:06
schestowitzThen MonoMay 23 00:06
schestowitzThen WPF and .NETMay 23 00:06
schestowitz.NET on the Net that isMay 23 00:06
seller_liarMiguel is a liarMay 23 00:06
schestowitzaka Silver LieMay 23 00:06
seller_liarHe does not like dotgnu projectMay 23 00:06
oiaohmHistory says JIT engines will be problems.May 23 00:06
schestowitzDaemonFC: won't helpMay 23 00:07
oiaohmJava has done massive work on JIT and it still does not cover its problems.May 23 00:07
schestowitzWindows 7: 83% Of Businesses Won't Deploy Next Year http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=216500331&subSection=NewsMay 23 00:07
seller_liaroiaohm: I don t knowMay 23 00:07
seller_liaroiaohm: People don t worry about such thingsMay 23 00:07
oiaohmProject looking glass was a failure for desktop usage because of it.May 23 00:08
DaemonFCMy mom was watching that MultiTouch demoMay 23 00:08
DaemonFCdoes the Mac have anything like that?May 23 00:08
oiaohm.net guys have learnt nothing seller_liarMay 23 00:08
chips_its more than google  for advertising that M$ wants to kill.  The other reason to buy Yahoo is to start killing adobe with silverlightMay 23 00:08
schestowitzMS always shows good hardwareMay 23 00:08
schestowitzThat's the new stuntMay 23 00:08
seller_liaroiaohm: Net guys loves to attack java[May 23 00:09
DaemonFCyeah, it was a Dell integrated like an iMacMay 23 00:09
chips_Silverlight is the other half of advertising revenueMay 23 00:09
DaemonFCwith a touch screenMay 23 00:09
schestowitzBig screens, touch technology, apps built onto for demos...May 23 00:09
DaemonFClooked pretty coolMay 23 00:09
DaemonFCbut I'l not laying down $1800 for thatMay 23 00:09
schestowitzPeople should ask themselves what h/w they have.May 23 00:09
schestowitzIt's like with carsMay 23 00:09
oiaohmseller_liar: in the process forget they are standing in a glass house with the same problems.May 23 00:09
schestowitzBeing shown off with some girl in a bikini riding itMay 23 00:09
oiaohm.net guys complain about java heavy memory usage.May 23 00:09
oiaohm.net has that problem.May 23 00:09
DaemonFCyeah, they pimped Vista out like this before it launchedMay 23 00:10
schestowitzOnly you get a car with dew stains and no girl in itMay 23 00:10
DaemonFCand it's nowhere near what they demo'dMay 23 00:10
seller_liaroiaohm: Not only this, but microsoft hates java tooMay 23 00:10
oiaohmMS tried to take control of JavaMay 23 00:10
seller_liaroiaohm: Net developers=microsoft slavesMay 23 00:10
oiaohmSUN kicked there ass.May 23 00:10
oiaohmSo MS hates them.May 23 00:10
DaemonFCschestowitz: That "Mojave" thing, was bullshit because they got to load it on super fast hardwareMay 23 00:10
DaemonFCthat could easily handle VistaMay 23 00:10
DaemonFCwith all the features in itMay 23 00:11
oiaohmSo MS made a incompadle clone.May 23 00:11
oiaohmNothing new there.May 23 00:11
DaemonFCand already had everything installed and set upMay 23 00:11
seller_liaroiaohm: M$ will never to be a "new thing"May 23 00:11
oiaohmADS is a incompadle clone of what samba was doing in 1998.May 23 00:11
seller_liaroiaohm: Microsoft has alwayas the old same tatics from 80sMay 23 00:11
oiaohmNothing new same old same old.May 23 00:12
oiaohmMS people don't want to get that.May 23 00:12
schestowitzYes, they have cookbooksMay 23 00:12
chips_M$ playbook worked well, why change it?May 23 00:12
schestowitzFor dirty maneuvers May 23 00:12
schestowitzComes vs MSMay 23 00:12
schestowitzYet to be exposed some moreMay 23 00:12
schestowitzWe'll make some big FPers May 23 00:12
DaemonFCIf MS puts Vista on a system with 16 gigs of RAM and a quad core CPU, who could say it's slow?May 23 00:12
oiaohmHas it really chips_May 23 00:12
schestowitzI'm too caught up with the news for nowMay 23 00:12
schestowitzSummers get quieterMay 23 00:13
DaemonFCIf they turn off UAC for the demo, it's not annoyingMay 23 00:13
DaemonFCetc.May 23 00:13
DaemonFCif they cherry pick hardware and softwareMay 23 00:13
DaemonFCwhat incompatibilities?May 23 00:13
DaemonFC:PMay 23 00:13
oiaohmMost of the 1980~ competition was mostly took the path they could charge more than MS because there software/hardware was better quality.May 23 00:13
oiaohmBad mistakeMay 23 00:13
seller_liarM$ have destroyed OEMs and hardware manufaturersMay 23 00:14
schestowitz"Jury Convicts Mother Who Prayed for Daughter Instead of Treating Her Fatal Diabetes" Oh l0rdMay 23 00:14
oiaohmLot of this kind of attude when threw the 1990~May 23 00:14
DaemonFCmmhmMay 23 00:14
oiaohmMS did illegal deals with OEMsMay 23 00:14
chips_oiaohm:  yes.  If MS goes down its not because of its "playbook."  Even with EU fines big, its not enough to take them down.  They should go down, because of what you have written about, ARM cpu.May 23 00:14
DaemonFCschestowitz: At least not everyone in this country is fucking stupidMay 23 00:14
DaemonFCthat proves it I guessMay 23 00:14
oiaohmMS is going to go down because there play book is useless.May 23 00:15
DaemonFC50 years ago you'd have the jury backing the psycho momMay 23 00:15
DaemonFCif it ever went to courtMay 23 00:15
oiaohmHow do you under cut free without killing yourself.May 23 00:15
DaemonFCoiaohm: Make your product betterMay 23 00:15
DaemonFCnot only better, better enough to pay forMay 23 00:15
schestowitzDaemonFC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9oMay 23 00:15
oiaohmBetter product does not make sure you win DaemonFCMay 23 00:15
schestowitzPut your hand on the table when you tell the truth :-)May 23 00:15
oiaohmMS beat other products by being cheaper.May 23 00:15
schestowitz*or bibleMay 23 00:15
oiaohmBasically softwrare is cheaper.May 23 00:16
oiaohmCosts bugger all to mass produce.May 23 00:16
oiaohmMS made there profts from software so are a sitting duck.May 23 00:16
oiaohmProfits from support is something someone else cannot replicate cheaply.May 23 00:16
DaemonFCIf I was Microsoft, I'd be making Windows so "good" that people wanted to keep paying for itMay 23 00:17
oiaohmMS screwed the pooch in there playbook.May 23 00:17
DaemonFCso good that it would earn the profit it made over free LinuxMay 23 00:17
DaemonFCthey couldMay 23 00:17
DaemonFCthey could do all of thatMay 23 00:17
DaemonFCthey don'tMay 23 00:17
oiaohmJust no decent competiton gave MS market.May 23 00:17
chips_Many years ago somewhere on the web, I read a post from IBM, about moving from OS/2 to windows or Linux.  Basically it said that IBM could not compete with M$ Windows because of cost.  And that only an OS like Linux would be able to because of free volunteer work making up much of the system.May 23 00:17
oiaohmLast few years tide has started turning.May 23 00:18
DaemonFCOK, suppose they took the DRM bullshit out, and they made sure it had drivers for everything, and they properly secured it, and so on so forthMay 23 00:18
DaemonFCit just works alwaysMay 23 00:18
oiaohmWrong chips_May 23 00:18
DaemonFCand when it doesn't, you get real supportMay 23 00:18
DaemonFCI mean that would be worth moneyMay 23 00:18
oiaohmMost Linux development is done by paid developers.May 23 00:18
oiaohmLinux costs are distributed.May 23 00:18
chips_true, but not so much back thenMay 23 00:18
DaemonFCthey give Linux out for free cause they tried selling itMay 23 00:18
DaemonFCand it didn't workMay 23 00:18
oiaohmIts turned out a lot was back then chips_May 23 00:19
chips_or should I have said GNU, not linuxMay 23 00:19
oiaohmNo one was proper tracking where the coders were coming from.May 23 00:19
chips_kernel always have beenMay 23 00:19
DaemonFCremember in 1998-2003 when every Best Buy and Staples had several Linux box sets?May 23 00:19
DaemonFCsitting right next to Windows?May 23 00:19
chips_Red HatMay 23 00:19
DaemonFCRed Hat, Suse, MandrakeMay 23 00:19
DaemonFCon and onMay 23 00:19
chips_yepMay 23 00:19
DaemonFCand Windows still soldMay 23 00:19
oiaohmEven if you go back into BSD pre linux.May 23 00:20
DaemonFCand that shelf space was making them nothingMay 23 00:20
oiaohmThere were a lot of commerically paid developers in the game back then.May 23 00:20
DaemonFCso Linux had 56 years sitting right next to WindowsMay 23 00:20
oiaohmAgain no one was bothering tracking.May 23 00:20
DaemonFCand never took offMay 23 00:20
DaemonFCerrMay 23 00:20
DaemonFC5-6May 23 00:20
oiaohmLinux msot likely will never been on the shelf.May 23 00:20
oiaohmMore likely to come preinstalled.May 23 00:21
DaemonFCLinux has been on the shelfMay 23 00:21
DaemonFCprominently for yearsMay 23 00:21
DaemonFCand never soldMay 23 00:21
oiaohmOn the shelf turned out to be a expensive mistake.May 23 00:21
DaemonFCthats why Red Hat's CEO said basically "We tried it, there is no Linux desktop market"May 23 00:21
DaemonFCthe other dayMay 23 00:21
oiaohmRedhat words and actions not match.May 23 00:21
chips_it doesn't need to be on the "shelf."  It needs to be on the ARM and Mips laptopsMay 23 00:21
oiaohmRedhat runs a lot of projects targeted at desktop support.May 23 00:22
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-130-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 00:22
oiaohmRedhat also does not expect to make any profit from the desktop market.May 23 00:22
DaemonFCthey used toMay 23 00:23
oiaohmNop.May 23 00:23
oiaohmThe money is server side.May 23 00:23
DaemonFCwell, on the sheld was the right place to beMay 23 00:23
DaemonFCat that time and placeMay 23 00:23
_Hicham_RedHat is an expertMay 23 00:23
DaemonFCif it didn't take off that way when nobody had the bandwidth to download itMay 23 00:23
chips_the only desktop that Red Hat is really worried about is the corporate oneMay 23 00:23
DaemonFCit's not going toMay 23 00:23
DaemonFCat least not in retail channelsMay 23 00:23
_Hicham_what about Fedora?May 23 00:23
DaemonFCand that's how you expose Mac and Windows users to softwareMay 23 00:23
_Hicham_it is a general purpose distroMay 23 00:24
_Hicham_it brings the latest techs to the desktop alsoMay 23 00:24
oiaohmFedora contains lots of Redhat desktop expermentsMay 23 00:24
_Hicham_which is greatMay 23 00:24
_Hicham_who doesn't like innovation?May 23 00:24
DaemonFCyeah, Fedora is basically siphoning from other distrosMay 23 00:24
oiaohmNoMay 23 00:24
DaemonFCit's gonna all be about Ubuntu and Fedora, eventuallyMay 23 00:24
DaemonFCI thinkMay 23 00:24
DaemonFCwith others fighting for crumbsMay 23 00:25
_Hicham_Ubuntu doesn't do anythingMay 23 00:25
_Hicham_they just packageMay 23 00:25
oiaohmFedora really is not siphoning.May 23 00:25
DaemonFCI mean for desktop usersMay 23 00:25
DaemonFCnot corporateMay 23 00:25
oiaohmRedhat knows where the money is.May 23 00:25
DaemonFCit's gravitating to Ubuntu and FedoraMay 23 00:25
oiaohmCorporate desktops.May 23 00:25
oiaohmWith servers support them.May 23 00:25
_Hicham_Ubuntu doesn't give a shit about the communityMay 23 00:25
oiaohmPeople will buy support contracts on that.May 23 00:25
oiaohmSo redhat will make money.May 23 00:26
*DaemonFC is now known as IAmNotNiceMay 23 00:26
_Hicham_Ubuntu isn't reliable on a serverMay 23 00:26
oiaohmSupport is where the proft is.May 23 00:26
_Hicham_you can't use Ubuntu on serverMay 23 00:26
schestowitzIAmNotNice: please no nymshiftingMay 23 00:26
_Hicham_it features lot of new things for a serverMay 23 00:26
schestowitzOr -- use real nameMay 23 00:26
*IAmNotNice is now known as DaemonFCMay 23 00:26
schestowitzEspecially if you curse and make death wishes/threatsMay 23 00:26
_Hicham_RHEL is the most reliable on serversMay 23 00:26
DaemonFChmmmmMay 23 00:27
_Hicham_start some trollMay 23 00:27
_Hicham_no problemMay 23 00:27
oiaohmRHEL has a game plan.May 23 00:27
oiaohmNot a game plan MS is going to like.May 23 00:28
_Hicham_what is its game plan oiaohm?May 23 00:28
*DaemonFC ties RMS up and pays Miguel De Icaza to give him a lap danceMay 23 00:28
DaemonFCthere you goMay 23 00:28
_Hicham_hahahahahahahaMay 23 00:28
_Hicham_bad tryMay 23 00:28
oiaohmVirtualisation + client management  So allowing them to take control of the corperate business desktop.May 23 00:28
chips_Net Apps is in the southern part of the LA metro areaMay 23 00:29
*ReverseGTR (n=ReverseG@ool-45732edc.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 00:29
ReverseGTRhiMay 23 00:29
_Hicham_there is no money in the DesktopMay 23 00:29
chips_wonder if they gives tours?May 23 00:29
ReverseGTRsorry it took a bit longer then I thought to get backMay 23 00:29
_Hicham_Desktop is not profitableMay 23 00:29
oiaohmControl of corperate desktop gives you control of there supporting servers.May 23 00:29
_Hicham_finally i resolved my opengl programming dilemmaMay 23 00:29
_Hicham_thought i can't understand itMay 23 00:29
oiaohmRedhat is after servers.May 23 00:29
DaemonFCwell, Linux is in a catch-22May 23 00:29
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, : Desktop market is not profitable?May 23 00:30
DaemonFCwith few users, there's little incentive for decent softwareMay 23 00:30
DaemonFCand without decent software, there's no incentive for lots of usersMay 23 00:30
_Hicham_yes, Windows Desktop is pirated for 100%May 23 00:30
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, if cloud computing has their way the desktop will be the only appealing thing left of a PC's OS.May 23 00:30
DaemonFCpretty muchMay 23 00:30
_Hicham_so it isn't profitableMay 23 00:30
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, if by then PC are any longer PC are just set top boxesMay 23 00:30
DaemonFCnot at allMay 23 00:31
DaemonFCit's very profitableMay 23 00:31
_Hicham_Desktop just serves for locking the marketMay 23 00:31
oiaohmRedhat plain includes cloud computering ReverseGTRMay 23 00:31
DaemonFCbasically yesMay 23 00:31
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, and you know what, I am utterly disgusted with that vision of personal computingMay 23 00:31
oiaohmFor own secuirty you really need to run own cloud.May 23 00:31
chips_Hicham, says Desktop is not profitable.  Home user you are right of course.  Even IBM said it could not compete with MS on windows and that Linux would be a neutral platform.  The point being if Linux replaces Windows, they software will be written for it for sale.May 23 00:31
ReverseGTRnot only does it take the personal out of computing, but also the empowerment of a indivisual to utilize a computer to the fullest potential and learn from itMay 23 00:31
_Hicham_software is sold for corporate usersMay 23 00:32
_Hicham_not for individualsMay 23 00:32
_Hicham_individuals will download pirated versionsMay 23 00:32
chips_not true, games are software tooMay 23 00:32
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, what about Game developers, MMOs and Media processing softwareMay 23 00:32
schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/glynmoody/statuses/1872177623 "Conficker still infecting 50,000 PCs per day - http://bit.ly/JpG1a not true: it's infecting 50K *Windows* machines per day"May 23 00:32
chips_not everyone piratesMay 23 00:32
_Hicham_games are a special caseMay 23 00:32
oiaohmGame developers are going to have more problems soon too.May 23 00:32
DaemonFCthe DRM in video games is the longest suicide note everMay 23 00:33
schestowitz<chips_> Net Apps is in the southern part of the LA metro areaMay 23 00:33
schestowitzWhat does this mean?May 23 00:33
DaemonFCwhy buy the real thing when the pirate copy doesn't slap you around with borderline spywareMay 23 00:33
schestowitzFor #s?May 23 00:33
chips_will not touch DRM in any wayMay 23 00:33
DaemonFC:)May 23 00:33
chips_Roy, the tour of courseMay 23 00:33
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, eventually developers will wake up to no DRM and adopt a more Valve Steam like methodMay 23 00:33
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, I mean publishersMay 23 00:34
DaemonFCLA Metro is only about 16 million peopleMay 23 00:34
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 00:34
oiaohmSteam is still a DRM ReverseGTRMay 23 00:34
chips_google maps for net appsMay 23 00:34
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, because it is the publishers that are really at fault for putting DRM inMay 23 00:34
oiaohmJust not as abusive one.May 23 00:34
_Hicham_Linux have to lock the marketMay 23 00:34
DaemonFCcustomer abuse, no better example than video game DRMMay 23 00:34
ReverseGTRoiaohm, but at least its set up in such a way to give redundancy for the userMay 23 00:34
ReverseGTRoiaohm, in case if they lose a copy or ectMay 23 00:34
DaemonFCeven Vista's activation shit palesMay 23 00:34
DaemonFCin comparison to what EA Games usesMay 23 00:35
_Hicham_games should be certified by distrosMay 23 00:35
_Hicham_current Linux commercial games have linking problemsMay 23 00:35
oiaohmReally Linux needs a steam like system taht does not give a crap about Linux distributionsMay 23 00:35
DaemonFCwell, there's a cartel on Linux setting up to take all your money so you can play your games?May 23 00:35
DaemonFCAnyone?May 23 00:35
DaemonFCAnyone?May 23 00:35
DaemonFCCedega!May 23 00:35
_Hicham_Cedega isn't a solutionMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCpartnering with EA and several other studiosMay 23 00:36
oiaohmMore games work with when than CedegaMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCyou can run those games on LinuxMay 23 00:36
oiaohmwineMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCbut only if you buy CedegaMay 23 00:36
_Hicham_wine is not a solutionMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCand the Windows version of the gameMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCnopeMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCthey don't run in WineMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCWine crashesMay 23 00:36
oiaohmSo does Cedega with some games.May 23 00:36
DaemonFCnoMay 23 00:36
_Hicham_porting is the solutionMay 23 00:36
_Hicham_that would be profitableMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCI mean the copy protection crashes WineMay 23 00:36
DaemonFCintentionallyMay 23 00:36
oiaohmNeither Cedega and wine are pefect.May 23 00:36
chips_crossover had a free day back awhile ago, 7.02 I got itMay 23 00:37
oiaohmCedega runs more copy protection games.May 23 00:37
DaemonFCyou can only install them in CedegaMay 23 00:37
DaemonFCWine can't even run the installerMay 23 00:37
oiaohmWine runs more complex games.May 23 00:37
DaemonFCtalk about no lubeMay 23 00:37
oiaohmSo neither gives you coverage.May 23 00:37
oiaohmSuxs big time.May 23 00:37
DaemonFCwho wants to pay $60 a year to play games you should be able to play anyway?May 23 00:37
DaemonFCVista is cheaper!May 23 00:37
DaemonFCI mean damnMay 23 00:37
DaemonFCyou know?May 23 00:37
_Hicham_fuck VistaMay 23 00:38
oiaohmNote not all copy protection games fail in wine.May 23 00:38
_Hicham_it is not about being cheapMay 23 00:38
DaemonFCoh, but it's cheaper to buy Vista than pay for a Cedega subscription for 3 yearsMay 23 00:38
_Hicham_it is about freedomMay 23 00:38
oiaohmSome detect wine and disable copy protection as well.May 23 00:38
DaemonFCso you're still locked inMay 23 00:38
DaemonFCeven though you use LinuxMay 23 00:38
_Hicham_games should be ported to LinuxMay 23 00:38
DaemonFCyeah, they aren't, tough shitMay 23 00:38
Balrog_oiaohm: what about using anti copy protection patches and the like? Of course you still own the game ... runs afoul of DMCA but would that helpMay 23 00:38
Balrog_?May 23 00:39
DaemonFCyou'll get the same answer from EAMay 23 00:39
DaemonFCI'm sureMay 23 00:39
oiaohmDMCA allows it Balrog_ for use in wine or any other system emulator.May 23 00:39
Balrog__Hicham_ and DaemonFC: main problem is that game developers are heavily invested in DirectXMay 23 00:39
DaemonFCBalrog_: I've done thatMay 23 00:39
DaemonFCbut the game has to at least install firstMay 23 00:39
Balrog_hmm. :/May 23 00:39
schestowitzNeat! : http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=4505537&server=vimeo.com&show_title=1&show_byline=1&show_portrait=0&color=&fullscreen=1May 23 00:39
_Hicham_Balrog_ : DirectX isn't a problemMay 23 00:39
oiaohmYou cannot of course use anti copy protection if wine runs game without needing it.May 23 00:39
DaemonFCWine does DirectX to OpenGLMay 23 00:39
chips_games will be ported to Linux when numbers are up, when we get the correct percentages other than Net AppsMay 23 00:39
_Hicham_there are mappings between OGL and DXMay 23 00:39
Balrog_yeah, but when it comes to porting gamesMay 23 00:40
DaemonFCWine is worried about running afoul of DMCA-style lawsMay 23 00:40
DaemonFCso they won't support the copy protection librariesMay 23 00:40
Balrog_they're not foolproof and don't work with the latest DirectXMay 23 00:40
oiaohmNot really.May 23 00:40
_Hicham_the real problem is MFCMay 23 00:40
_Hicham_MFC is very evilMay 23 00:40
DaemonFC?May 23 00:40
chips_Roy has done more to get games ported to linux than anyone by exposing Net AppsMay 23 00:40
DaemonFCNo, SecuROM is evilMay 23 00:40
_Hicham_the closest toolkit is WxWidgetsMay 23 00:40
Balrog_<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Foundation_Class_Library>May 23 00:40
DaemonFCthe earlier Oblivion discs installedMay 23 00:40
oiaohmParticular copy protection libraries run in wine DaemonFCMay 23 00:40
DaemonFCthen they put SecuROM on and they won't install nowMay 23 00:40
_Hicham_it is relatively easy to port MFC apps to wxWidgetsMay 23 00:41
Balrog_there should be a way around itMay 23 00:41
DaemonFCnopeMay 23 00:41
DaemonFCtried the tutorialMay 23 00:41
schestowitzchips_: I wouldn't go that farMay 23 00:41
DaemonFCabout 50 steps later, still wouldn't workMay 23 00:41
Balrog_binary patching the installers?May 23 00:41
schestowitzOthers help expose them tooMay 23 00:41
Balrog_(patch the checks out)May 23 00:41
DaemonFCuhhhm, yeah, if you want to do that for meMay 23 00:41
DaemonFCI'll run itMay 23 00:41
schestowitzI accumulate things and did a little invetigationMay 23 00:41
DaemonFClolMay 23 00:41
schestowitzhttp://www.worldchanging.com/archives/009899.html (M.I.T. Doubles Its 2095 Warming Projection To 10°F — With 866 Ppm And Arctic Warming of 20°F)May 23 00:41
_Hicham_schestowitz is an expert in Mono programmingMay 23 00:41
schestowitzHehMay 23 00:42
schestowitzMono programming?May 23 00:42
schestowitzLike C# rather?May 23 00:42
oiaohmTry those secure rom games in wine DaemonFCMay 23 00:42
DaemonFCthat's what's killing Linux off with a lot of people trapped on Windows just for the gamesMay 23 00:42
DaemonFCthis copy protection crapMay 23 00:42
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DaemonFCit's evilMay 23 00:42
_Hicham_there is no copy protectionMay 23 00:42
schestowitzcopy protection?May 23 00:42
schestowitzCall it what it isMay 23 00:42
oiaohmOne of the reason why windows user ask wine to be port to windows is secuROM.May 23 00:42
schestowitzDigital handcuffsMay 23 00:42
DaemonFCcopy restrictionMay 23 00:42
DaemonFCthat works tooMay 23 00:43
_Hicham_u can't restrict copyMay 23 00:43
schestowitzDigital fogMay 23 00:43
_Hicham_it is just a mythMay 23 00:43
schestowitzClouDRMMay 23 00:43
DaemonFCI tried installing this stuff in Wine and that's the _ONLY_ reason it won't workMay 23 00:43
schestowitzSort and fluffy RMMay 23 00:43
DaemonFConly reasonMay 23 00:43
schestowitz*softMay 23 00:43
oiaohmWine cannot run lots of copy protection libs because they don't have enough low level emulation yet.May 23 00:43
_Hicham_wine is just a transitional solutionMay 23 00:43
_Hicham_not the final oneMay 23 00:43
DaemonFCyeah, Wine is great when it works, and that's what kept me happy for several yearsMay 23 00:44
DaemonFCand now it doesn't really work anymoreMay 23 00:44
oiaohmluk project is also working on expanding that.May 23 00:44
_Hicham_DaemonFC must work on gamesMay 23 00:44
DaemonFCI had a lot of games installed in Wine on Linux that worked greatMay 23 00:44
schestowitzhttp://www.freeformdynamics.com/fullarticle.asp?aid=678 (Linux on the Desktop)May 23 00:44
DaemonFCalmost my whole collection spanning back to 1994May 23 00:44
_Hicham_now that ATI is getting better on Linux, games developers should be more interestedMay 23 00:44
chips_at some point the api's and directX have to be considered as a non standard format, for eu review as wellMay 23 00:45
DaemonFCand then this shit comes alongMay 23 00:45
_Hicham_DirectX used to be crapMay 23 00:45
_Hicham_because it involved ( and still ) some low level interactionMay 23 00:45
schestowitzused to be?May 23 00:45
DaemonFCso basically any games I have for XP or Vista get installed in Vista, and any games I have for 3.1-Me get Wine on LinuxMay 23 00:46
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_Hicham_which are sometime riskyMay 23 00:46
DaemonFCcause Vista is losing compatibility with earlier WindowsMay 23 00:46
chips_the point being that software written for one OS (windows) should be able to run on others.  Why does the wheel need to be constantly reinvented?May 23 00:46
_Hicham_schestowitz : DirectX has got a major cleanup with version 9May 23 00:46
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schestowitz“Wine is a better Windows than Vista” --David GerardMay 23 00:46
DaemonFCDirectX 9 is fairly good, as in performance wiseMay 23 00:46
DaemonFCeven John Carmack said soMay 23 00:46
chips_I am not talking Jave either,  I am talking about the Eu forcing M$ to doc and open its api'sMay 23 00:47
oiaohmDepends on the game.May 23 00:47
Balrog_but it's non-standardMay 23 00:47
DaemonFCbut the cross platform games ID Software puts outMay 23 00:47
Balrog_opengl is the standardMay 23 00:47
oiaohmLot of games only work on wine in direct x mode.May 23 00:47
DaemonFCalmost always run better on LinuxMay 23 00:47
oiaohmon winXp Os setting.May 23 00:47
oiaohmVista added a few game management things.May 23 00:47
DaemonFCschestowitz: If you install TurboTax and MS Office, maybeMay 23 00:47
schestowitzWine sometimes performs better than Win+DXMay 23 00:48
DaemonFCWine can usually run that cause CodeWeavers needs to sell their Crossover appMay 23 00:48
_Hicham_Office 2007 can't be installed on wineMay 23 00:48
DaemonFCCrossover runs itMay 23 00:48
oiaohmNot exactly true _Hicham_May 23 00:48
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schestowitz_Hicham_:  not trueMay 23 00:48
oiaohmIt can be installed it don't run nice.May 23 00:48
Balrog_oiaohm: then why does Crossover run it right?May 23 00:48
_Hicham_I don't know with newer wine versionMay 23 00:48
_Hicham_I don't use wine anymoreMay 23 00:49
schestowitzIt runsMay 23 00:49
schestowitzThey brag about itMay 23 00:49
_Hicham_I am windows free nowMay 23 00:49
oiaohmPush crossover the right way you will find out it don't run right either Balrog_May 23 00:49
schestowitzSee wine /Bordeaux blogMay 23 00:49
_Hicham_the last thing that can't seem to come over is Official Flash PlayerMay 23 00:49
_Hicham_it is really evenMay 23 00:49
_Hicham_I tried swfdec and gnash with different compilation optionsMay 23 00:50
_Hicham_but no luckMay 23 00:50
Balrog__Hicham_: you mean the Linux version?May 23 00:50
_Hicham_yexMay 23 00:50
_Hicham_yesMay 23 00:50
DaemonFCCrossover = No regressions on supported appsMay 23 00:50
Balrog_make sure you're using the 64bit one if you're running 64bit linuxMay 23 00:50
DaemonFCit's not just Wine copied over verbatimMay 23 00:50
_Hicham_it is the only proprietary piece of software that i can't get overMay 23 00:50
schestowitzApple trikes again: "If you’re wondering why Eucalyptus is not yet available, it’s currently in the state of being ‘rejected’ for distribution on the iPhone App Store. This is due to the fact that it’s possible, after explicitly searching for them, to find, download from the Internet, and then read texts that Apple deems ‘objectionable’." http://www.blog.montgomerie.net/whither-eucalyptusMay 23 00:51
DaemonFCso Wine can break things and fix them ad infinitumMay 23 00:51
chips_i use wine/crossover to run bejeweled2, Civ3, and dvdfab5.  XP in a vm to run one online game only, not often.May 23 00:51
DaemonFCbut usually progresses fasterMay 23 00:51
DaemonFCWoW?May 23 00:51
DaemonFCUltima?May 23 00:51
_Hicham_fuck Windows compatibilityMay 23 00:51
DaemonFCI play Ultima Online on a FreeShardMay 23 00:52
Balrog_hmm ... maybe they're 'cracking down' in anticipation of iphone 3.0May 23 00:52
chips_Hicham, there is not much I want from the windows ecosystemMay 23 00:52
Balrog_which will have parental restrictionsMay 23 00:52
DaemonFCZune Phone :DMay 23 00:52
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 00:52
Balrog_"Parental Controls have been announced for iPhone OS 3.0. It would be appropriate to resubmit your application for review once this feature is available.May 23 00:53
Balrog_"May 23 00:53
schestowitzCourt curtails Met surveillance < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8061050.stm >May 23 00:53
chips_Roy, Net Apps is about 5 hours awayMay 23 00:53
schestowitzWhat do you meam?May 23 00:54
schestowitzFrom you?May 23 00:54
oiaohmhttp://www.iris2.de/index.php/Main_Page  So you don't use iris2 DaemonFC?May 23 00:54
ziggyfishbackMay 23 00:54
chips_yesMay 23 00:54
schestowitzWHO at a crossroads on a mandate for an R&D Treaty < http://www.keionline.org/blogs/2009/05/21/who-at-a-crossroads-on-a-mandate-for-an-rd-treaty/ . WHO?!?! Wha!??May 23 00:55
schestowitzchips_: go look in their garbage cans for receipts ;-)May 23 00:55
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oiaohmThere are more and more native ports of games appearing for Linux.May 23 00:56
DaemonFCoiaohm: This has everything you need?May 23 00:56
DaemonFCno real client software needed?May 23 00:56
chips_trash dumpster there, but they most likely have to sort they trash, papers, plastics, glass etcMay 23 00:56
chips_tour would be nice too, maybe an interviewMay 23 00:57
oiaohmNot that I have found yet DaemonFCMay 23 00:58
DaemonFChmmmmmMay 23 00:58
DaemonFCI need to look at Valves statsMay 23 00:58
DaemonFClast year 80% of Valve steam users were on XPMay 23 00:58
oiaohmOf course you need the data files out the true client.May 23 00:59
oiaohmLot like playing quake on Linux.May 23 00:59
DaemonFChttp://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/May 23 00:59
DaemonFChehMay 23 00:59
_Hicham_DaemonFC : did you play postal2 on Linux?May 23 01:00
DaemonFCnoMay 23 01:00
_Hicham_ColdWar on Linux?May 23 01:00
_Hicham_these are native gamesMay 23 01:00
DaemonFC60.96% on XPMay 23 01:00
_Hicham_Penumbra Black Plague?May 23 01:00
_Hicham_you can download the demosMay 23 01:01
chips_its been fun, later allMay 23 01:01
_Hicham_I have run postal2 on DebianMay 23 01:01
_Hicham_it worked like a charmMay 23 01:01
DaemonFCof course Wine lies and says it is XPMay 23 01:01
DaemonFCso that's overestimating a littleMay 23 01:01
_Hicham_no Windows emulationMay 23 01:01
_Hicham_just LinuxMay 23 01:01
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_Hicham_everything goes to glibcMay 23 01:01
_Hicham_directlyMay 23 01:02
DaemonFCso probably 59% of Windows usersMay 23 01:02
_Hicham_no more mappingMay 23 01:02
DaemonFCstill on XPMay 23 01:02
_Hicham_Windows users are just dumbMay 23 01:02
DaemonFC0.32% on XP x64May 23 01:02
schestowitzAnnouncing Apps for America 2: The Data.gov Challenge < http://blog.sunlightfoundation.com/2009/05/21/announcing-apps-for-america-2-the-datagov-challenge/ >May 23 01:02
DaemonFCby Valve's usage stats, Vista has 30.64% of the marketMay 23 01:03
DaemonFCfor Windows anywayMay 23 01:03
_Hicham_when will this fucking Microsoft die?May 23 01:05
_Hicham_there must be a strategy to kill itMay 23 01:05
schestowitzTwitter shoots through the roof: Twitter Surges Past Digg, LinkedIn, And NYTimes.com With 32 Million Global Visitors < http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/05/20/twitter-surges-past-digg-linkedin-and-nytimescom-with-32-million-global-visitors/ >May 23 01:05
_Hicham_the biggest mistake of linux is that it neglected the desktopMay 23 01:05
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's already dyingMay 23 01:05
schestowitzGive it timeMay 23 01:05
_Hicham_I won't to see die before I dieMay 23 01:06
DaemonFCoiaohm: Are teh trial versions of Ultima crippled?May 23 01:06
DaemonFCI mean if you play them on a freeshardMay 23 01:06
DaemonFCthe trials have some stuff I don'tMay 23 01:06
schestowitzThe Solipsist and the Internet (a Review of Helprin's Digital Barbarism) < http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-lessig/the-solipsist-and-the-int_b_206021.html >May 23 01:07
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schestowitzThis Week's Terrorism Arrests < http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/05/this_weeks_terr.html >May 23 01:12
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taconeyou spit in the eye of a deputy todayMay 23 01:14
taconetomorrow you get arrested because you were plotting to blow up a church.May 23 01:14
schestowitzheh.May 23 01:16
schestowitzThey can dig deepMay 23 01:16
schestowitzAnd they lie, tooMay 23 01:16
schestowitzMany timesMay 23 01:16
schestowitzIt's like messing with the mafiaMay 23 01:16
schestowitzBut the mafia you can report to the policeMay 23 01:16
_Hicham_tacone is a known maffiosoMay 23 01:17
_Hicham_Hi taconeMay 23 01:17
schestowitzLousy Seattle reports: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/169306.asp?source=rssMay 23 01:17
_Hicham_do u have a lot of maffiosi over there?May 23 01:17
schestowitzSucking up to Microsoft while corrupting the term open sourceMay 23 01:17
schestowitzSee what they do there to "open source"?May 23 01:18
schestowitzWho does one report about the police too? There must be a mechanism that regulates the police somehowMay 23 01:18
schestowitzBillG has not left MSMay 23 01:19
schestowitzJust giving PRIVATE talks now: http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/169250.asp?source=rssMay 23 01:19
schestowitzAnd it requires Silver LieMay 23 01:19
schestowitz"While it shows that Microsoft understands the benefits of free software, this site mostly contains tiny add-ons to proprietary Microsoft products." http://www.cio.com/article/493224/Ex_Microsoftie_Free_Software_Will_Kill_Redmond?page=3May 23 01:20
taconeyeah, me mafiosoMay 23 01:20
DaemonFCI won't install SilverlightMay 23 01:21
DaemonFCI noticed vista won't let you hide it thoughMay 23 01:21
DaemonFCin the "Optional" section of Windows UpdateMay 23 01:21
DaemonFCbut it's unchecked by defaultMay 23 01:21
taconeinstall moonlightMay 23 01:21
taconei mean, how cool, it downloads linux stuff from microsoft.comMay 23 01:21
DaemonFCmmhmMay 23 01:22
DaemonFCMono on Windows is fairly pointlessMay 23 01:22
DaemonFCbecause it's not even .Net compatibleMay 23 01:22
_Hicham_Mono is a revolution on WindowsMay 23 01:22
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_Hicham_Mono will beat .Net on WindowsMay 23 01:23
_Hicham_coz it is cross platformMay 23 01:23
_Hicham_hahahahahahaMay 23 01:23
taconei bet .net can run mono stuff better than mono can run .net stuffMay 23 01:23
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sBfUjNE3HQMay 23 01:23
schestowitz> <tacone> i mean, how cool, it downloads linux stuff from microsoft.comMay 23 01:24
taconeanother pointless novell promo ?May 23 01:24
schestowitzMS grabs IPsMay 23 01:24
schestowitzFor IPMay 23 01:24
_Hicham_schestowitz is promoting flashMay 23 01:24
schestowitzIntelelctual monopolyMay 23 01:24
schestowitzBalance0-sheet liabilityMay 23 01:24
schestowitzHarevst IPs for IPMay 23 01:24
schestowitztacone: yeah, just popped up in the feedMay 23 01:25
taconecrank up and scream on your bansheeeeeeMay 23 01:25
taconelinux sets you freeeeee-eeeeee-eeeeeeeeeMay 23 01:25
schestowitz>tacone> i bet .net can run mono stuff better than mono can run .net stuffMay 23 01:25
schestowitzThat's the planMay 23 01:25
taconeschestowitz: novell is good at promos.May 23 01:25
schestowitzNovell lackeys writeMay 23 01:25
schestowitzOther volunteers write codeMay 23 01:25
schestowitzMicrosoft sweeps it over to WindersMay 23 01:25
schestowitzThen runs it on .NETMay 23 01:25
schestowitzSued MonoMay 23 01:25
taconei still can't help but think of mono as microsoft plan b.May 23 01:26
schestowitzSays "thank you and goodbye" to Linux devsMay 23 01:26
_Hicham_schestowitz should't promote flashMay 23 01:26
schestowitz*SuesMay 23 01:26
schestowitzOr *SUSEMay 23 01:26
taconethey're doing very bad with windowsMay 23 01:26
schestowitz:-)May 23 01:26
ReverseGTRschestowitz, I would love to watch that on Youtube, if I got Gnash freaking working on this YDL v5 distroMay 23 01:26
taconeif linux catches on (and it's catching on), they absolutely need MS Office on linuxMay 23 01:26
taconethey can't leave linux without office.May 23 01:26
schestowitzNot rrueMay 23 01:27
schestowitzThere's Fod ComputingMay 23 01:27
_Hicham_nice commercial schestowitzMay 23 01:27
schestowitz*FogMay 23 01:27
schestowitzAnd they move office thereMay 23 01:27
ReverseGTRtacone, if only Lotus still had value in their brandnameMay 23 01:27
taconetrue, there's fog computing. but how effective is it right now ?May 23 01:27
taconebrowsers suck !May 23 01:27
_Hicham_ReverseGTR : gnash worksMay 23 01:27
_Hicham_tacone, what about OpenOffice?May 23 01:27
oiaohmschestowitz:  tacone don't make the bet that .net can run mono stuff better than mono can run .net stuff.May 23 01:28
oiaohmOne of the night mares of .net built a program with mono it will not run with ms .net and vice verser.May 23 01:28
taconeoiaohm: parse error.May 23 01:29
oiaohmExactly.May 23 01:29
_Hicham_so what is mono for?May 23 01:29
taconelolMay 23 01:29
oiaohmMS cannot parse mono produced bytecode.May 23 01:29
_Hicham_a cheap cross platform alternative to .net?May 23 01:29
oiaohmAll the time.May 23 01:29
oiaohmSame with the mirror.May 23 01:29
oiaohmBasically MS .net is not to spec.May 23 01:29
oiaohmWhy should we be supprised at that.May 23 01:30
_Hicham_schestowitz : how will u convince distros that Mono is non free?May 23 01:30
_Hicham_debian considers it freeMay 23 01:30
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, I know Gnash works, it just depends on finding which is the right rpm for which platform and distroMay 23 01:30
schestowitzIn this new video, Novell is executing Tux/ GroupWise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHB56-oPGGEMay 23 01:30
_Hicham_ReverseGTR : compile it urselfMay 23 01:30
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, I don't have time now with the wait and resolving dependenciesMay 23 01:31
schestowitzgnMay 23 01:32
_Hicham_what distro are u on?May 23 01:32
ReverseGTRschestowitz, thx your videos will help test my gnashMay 23 01:32
taconecome on guysMay 23 01:32
ReverseGTR_Hicham_,  Yellow Dog Linux v5.02 I think, it has elements of Fedora 5 and 6May 23 01:32
taconemoonlight lets you watch playboyMay 23 01:33
taconehow can it be so bad ?May 23 01:33
_Hicham_it is old thenMay 23 01:33
_Hicham_tacone : fuck flash, fuck mono, fuck moonlightMay 23 01:34
_Hicham_vive Firefox and built-in oggMay 23 01:34
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, if only those became more standardMay 23 01:34
_Hicham_ReverseGTR : problem with gnash is high cpu usageMay 23 01:35
_Hicham_same with swfdecMay 23 01:35
_Hicham_though swfdec seems to outperform gnashMay 23 01:35
ReverseGTR_Hicham_, and developers took advantage of the fact that you can plug in .mpegs .h264, .ogg. .flac and ect directly in HTML5May 23 01:35
taconenot that flash is not havyMay 23 01:35
taconethat is short livedMay 23 01:35
taconeno advantage in direct embedding.May 23 01:35
oiaohmflash is lighter than silverlight.May 23 01:36
taconelook at youtubeMay 23 01:36
oiaohmWorks better to with streaming.May 23 01:36
taconecan you see them dropping their player for a direct embedment ?May 23 01:36
ReverseGTRtacone, you are aware Youtube Mobile is in .h264May 23 01:36
taconeno more galleries, search, etcMay 23 01:36
taconeyes I am, but mobile is another world.May 23 01:36
oiaohmDirect embed will not get filtered by stuff like noscript.May 23 01:36
taconeoiaohm: nice point.May 23 01:37
taconecould be a nicer degradeMay 23 01:37
_Hicham_but it is more secure than flashMay 23 01:37
taconebut still i think they won't do that. too easy to figure out how to download and save the video.May 23 01:37
taconestill, oiaohm, the point about the good degrade is niceMay 23 01:38
taconemany people may have interest in that.May 23 01:38
oiaohmyoutube firefox extention its all realy darn easy.May 23 01:38
ReverseGTRholy crap I hate the fact that for all intensive purposes YUM apps still can't resolve dependencies on their dam ownMay 23 01:38
oiaohmThen you have miro and others other there download youtube stuff.May 23 01:38
ReverseGTRyou would think having access to huge ftp databases would helpMay 23 01:38
taconei'm about to publish an interview with a mac guy. he says ubuntu lacks YaST ...May 23 01:38
tacone:oMay 23 01:38
oiaohmSo basically other than a few video hear and there its not a secuirty advantage running flash.May 23 01:39
oiaohmIf anything its just extra downloads per month.May 23 01:39
_Hicham_flashgot is the most powerful extension to download any streaming mediaMay 23 01:39
ReverseGTRoiaohm, direct embedding would solve so many compatibility issuesMay 23 01:39
ReverseGTRoiaohm, also a direct embedded videoclip can be filtered too, by the userMay 23 01:39
_Hicham_flashgot is efficient 100%May 23 01:39
taconeschestowitz: no more dos ?May 23 01:40
ReverseGTRtacone, I think schesty gone beddy byeMay 23 01:41
taconeohMay 23 01:41
_Hicham_schestowitz is asleep nowMay 23 01:41
taconepoor boyMay 23 01:42
_Hicham_he is dreaming of Mono stackMay 23 01:42
tacone_Hicham_: lolMay 23 01:42
ReverseGTRso I guess this channel stops once schestowitz is goneMay 23 01:48
taconewe're talking in #goodnight-schestwitzMay 23 01:49
taconeplease joinMay 23 01:49
ReverseGTRlolMay 23 01:49
Balrog_tacone: right lolMay 23 01:50
ReverseGTRI guess its on the subject of the right nighttime lullabyeMay 23 01:50
taconeby the way is quite late night in europeMay 23 01:50
Balrog_here it's 9PM i.e. 19:00May 23 01:51
Balrog_err, 21:00May 23 01:51
*Balrog_ fails at math????May 23 01:51
Balrog_I hope not :PMay 23 01:51
taconehere's is 3.00 amMay 23 01:51
Balrog_wowMay 23 01:52
taconei.e. you're a day behind: FAIL !May 23 01:52
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_Hicham_Balrog_ is a physicistMay 23 01:57
_Hicham_a quantum physics physicsMay 23 01:58
_Hicham_who is with Einstein determinismMay 23 01:58
Balrog_;PMay 23 01:59
Balrog_I'm /studying/ physics, but I'm not a physicist yet ... lolMay 23 01:59
_Hicham_and tacone is a confirmed maffiosoMay 23 02:00
_Hicham_with a great backgroundMay 23 02:00
_Hicham_999 killsMay 23 02:00
_Hicham_100 successful bank robboriesMay 23 02:01
_Hicham_and the list goes onMay 23 02:01
_Hicham_where is oiaohm?May 23 02:02
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ReverseGTRanyway for the meantime im offMay 23 02:05
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Microsoft is paying EdelmanMay 23 02:27
DaemonFCI thought those ads seemed familiarMay 23 02:27
DaemonFCmy former employer also had/is having Edelman whitewash their imageMay 23 02:28
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_Hicham_schestowitz is asleepMay 23 02:28
DaemonFCthere isn't anything those people won't do for moneyMay 23 02:28
DaemonFCyeah, Edelman specializes in astroturfMay 23 02:29
DaemonFCit's all they doMay 23 02:29
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_Hicham_wb taconeMay 23 02:41
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oiaohmProblem with autoturfing is soon or latter people believe there own turfing.May 23 02:54
twittersubmitted the Au charity bait and switch backlash to Slashdot http://slashdot.org/submission/1006087/Au-Charity-Backlash-to-M-Bait-and-SwitchMay 23 03:07
twitterupdated the death watch http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707May 23 03:07
twitterNice story and it looks like it will have a happy ending as fewer charity dollars are wasted on software that sucks.May 23 03:08
DaemonFCuggghMay 23 03:09
DaemonFCI wonder if he's wrote about MS + EdelmanMay 23 03:09
DaemonFCit would be worth writing aboutMay 23 03:10
DaemonFCI knew their ads sounded familiarMay 23 03:10
DaemonFCoiaohm: Walmart came under criticism for paying their employees minimum wage and encouraging them to fill in the gap with public assistanceMay 23 03:11
DaemonFCthat's why they hired EdelmanMay 23 03:11
twitterless than minimum wage - they make sure most employees are "part time"May 23 03:12
DaemonFCI was in middle management thereMay 23 03:12
DaemonFCthey reward for ideas on how to fuck employees overMay 23 03:13
twitterouch, then you know all about itMay 23 03:13
DaemonFCyesMay 23 03:13
twitterI'm told they send employees home at 35 hours, no exceptions now.May 23 03:13
DaemonFCbut their assistant managers end up working unpaid overtime to fill in for sending the hourly employees homeMay 23 03:13
DaemonFCI got out of there in 2007May 23 03:14
DaemonFCspent 3 years thereMay 23 03:14
twitterfrom what I read, they used to make everyone work unpaid overtime.May 23 03:14
twitteryou had the time of your life, I'm sure.May 23 03:14
DaemonFCI've heard about that, never did see it happen thoughMay 23 03:14
DaemonFCnot saying it didn'tMay 23 03:14
DaemonFCwouldn't put it past themMay 23 03:14
DaemonFCoh yeah, get there at 8 PMMay 23 03:15
DaemonFCstay there until 8, 9, or 10 AMMay 23 03:15
twitterthey adopt to minimize costsMay 23 03:15
DaemonFCput in 60+ hours a week for just under $40,000 a yearMay 23 03:15
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 03:15
DaemonFCevery level gets screwed over by the next level upMay 23 03:16
twitternot bad money for what it is, but very bad hours.May 23 03:16
DaemonFCuntil you're at store or district management levelMay 23 03:16
twitterbad hours seem to be the big dumb company normMay 23 03:16
DaemonFCthen you're pulling in 6 figuresMay 23 03:16
DaemonFCeasyMay 23 03:16
oiaohmThe bate and switch is desperation.May 23 03:17
twitterfor all of that, WalMart's profit margins are still thin, not like M$'s or oilMay 23 03:17
DaemonFCthey have 2 people out of 400-500 employees in a storeMay 23 03:17
DaemonFCwho actually make decent money for what they doMay 23 03:17
DaemonFCthin as a percentage maybeMay 23 03:17
DaemonFCthey make money by selling a LOT of stuffMay 23 03:17
twitterwell, there's not great money to be made in ordering and opening boxes of crap from ChinaMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCfrom thousands of storesMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCright, they have to sell a lot of itMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCwhich they doMay 23 03:18
twitterdidMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCand yes there is good profit on a lot of that stuffMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCclothes gets 60% margin on averageMay 23 03:18
DaemonFCit's the groceries that make the least profitMay 23 03:19
twitterthat is lower than the usual 100% markup.May 23 03:19
DaemonFCthey run the cheap groceries to get people in there to buy more expensive stuffMay 23 03:19
DaemonFCyou may as well if you already have the landMay 23 03:19
DaemonFCgroceries are usually 5-35% markupMay 23 03:20
twittergroceries at retail level is a very compeititve marketMay 23 03:20
twitterand there's spoilageMay 23 03:20
twitterouch machineMay 23 03:20
DaemonFCyeah, they already ran one of the supermarkets here out of businessMay 23 03:20
DaemonFCwhat they'll do is run them all outMay 23 03:20
DaemonFCthen jack up the pricesMay 23 03:20
DaemonFCtheir strategy is to dump cheap stuff til they run everyone else outMay 23 03:21
DaemonFCthen they raise pricesMay 23 03:21
twitterI've yet to see them get away with jacking upMay 23 03:21
twitterpeople buy the stuff when it's dumped and keep it.May 23 03:21
DaemonFCno they don'tMay 23 03:21
twitteryou don't think?May 23 03:21
DaemonFCthe stuff they sell is designed to wear out, go obsolete, or breakMay 23 03:21
twitteralmost everything isMay 23 03:22
DaemonFCso you may have saved 30% but it lasts half as long as a quality made widgetMay 23 03:22
DaemonFCthen they end up buying more of themMay 23 03:22
twitteror giving up having the widgetMay 23 03:22
DaemonFCnahMay 23 03:23
DaemonFCthey've changed their computers a littleMay 23 03:23
DaemonFCmost of them are now all motherboard integrated componentsMay 23 03:23
DaemonFCand that's enough to run Vista Home PremiumMay 23 03:24
DaemonFCacceptably wellMay 23 03:24
DaemonFCbut you get in thereMay 23 03:24
DaemonFCand find out they don't have upgrade portsMay 23 03:24
DaemonFCso when the thing gets 1-2 years old and you want an upgrade, a lot of people will throw the PC awayMay 23 03:24
DaemonFCso you have customers that buy 3 computers where 1 good one would have kept goingMay 23 03:25
twitterI'm not sure Vista is acceptable to anyone, which is why decidedly un upgradable netbooks are selling well.May 23 03:25
DaemonFCand that's also 3 copies of WindowsMay 23 03:25
twitterOr it's a bunch of junk sitting on a shelfMay 23 03:25
DaemonFCcomputers have sped up to where they can cope with VistaMay 23 03:25
twitterIt's still the worst version of Windows ever and people still hate it.May 23 03:26
DaemonFCwhen XP came out in 2001 it was terrible on the $500 pc's, then by 2003 anything you bought could run it well enoughMay 23 03:26
DaemonFCso it's all a matter of hardware catching upMay 23 03:26
twitterXP still sucks, even on new hardware.May 23 03:26
DaemonFCunfortunately you get the next Windows and the last batch of systemsMay 23 03:27
twitterit crashes daily, has big time security problems.May 23 03:27
DaemonFCand they just don't help each otherMay 23 03:27
twitterI'm familiar with the Windows treadmill.May 23 03:27
DaemonFCApple can control that cause they can make sure the hardware is good enough to handle the new more bloated OS XMay 23 03:27
twitterthis time it's really not workingMay 23 03:27
DaemonFCso they never get he reputation of OS X being slow and horribleMay 23 03:28
twitterimagine never selling stuff that's slow and horrible ....May 23 03:28
twitteramazing conceptMay 23 03:28
DaemonFCthere's a Mac treadmill tooMay 23 03:28
oiaohmDaemonFC: you are quoting how MS got themselves into troule.May 23 03:28
DaemonFCit's jsut not as obviousMay 23 03:28
oiaohmNetbooks went against the normal tide.May 23 03:28
DaemonFCyeah, and Apple doesn't have anything like itMay 23 03:29
oiaohmIdea that hardware will always get bigger is a trap.May 23 03:29
twitterthe Apple treadmill is much less obvious because they are happy to hand out OS to those who ask and the hardware is not so bloated in the first place.May 23 03:29
DaemonFCI'm sure OS X Leopard wouldn't scale down to that eitherMay 23 03:29
twitterDRM is a trapMay 23 03:29
DaemonFCwithout some serious overhaulMay 23 03:29
oiaohmOS X kernel is in iphone.May 23 03:29
twittera trap that nailed M$May 23 03:29
DaemonFCyeah, the Windows kernel is in smart phonesMay 23 03:29
oiaohmYes OS X could be got to scale down quite well.May 23 03:29
DaemonFCso yeahMay 23 03:29
DaemonFCneither system is bloated to the coreMay 23 03:30
twitterWindows Mobil is the pits.May 23 03:30
oiaohmWindows Mobel is not a NT kernel.May 23 03:30
twitterolder software that's been soundly rejected.May 23 03:30
oiaohmiphone and OS X is sharing other bits as well.May 23 03:30
DaemonFCMine runs that Symbian OSMay 23 03:30
twitteriPhone kicks all M$ junk's assMay 23 03:30
DaemonFCOpera runs on itMay 23 03:31
twitterAndroid will be good tooMay 23 03:31
DaemonFCthat beats the shit out of "Pocket Internet Explorer"May 23 03:31
*the_mad_hatter (i=63ee03e6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bc1dce2c5ba63b44) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 03:31
DaemonFC:)May 23 03:31
twitterheliographs work better than pocket IEMay 23 03:31
the_mad_hatterRoy, looks like the US Army is going to commit Seppuku on a large scaleMay 23 03:31
twitter?May 23 03:31
oiaohmOS X still runs quite well with the same ammount of ram it had when it was first released DaemonFCMay 23 03:31
the_mad_hatterhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137451/us-army-finally-moves-vistaMay 23 03:32
oiaohmXP after all its service packs got heiver.May 23 03:32
twitterWindows people project M$ flaws everywhere they look.  It's all in their heads.May 23 03:32
the_mad_hatterOSX works very well. It's a nice OS.May 23 03:32
twitterVista for US Army ... oh my.May 23 03:32
twitternot even M$ recommends a move to Vista now.May 23 03:33
DaemonFCXP's pretty snappyMay 23 03:33
DaemonFCeven on older hardwareMay 23 03:34
the_mad_hatterYeah. Pretty stupid.May 23 03:34
DaemonFCthat's why people are staying with thatMay 23 03:34
the_mad_hatterBut XP has crap driver support.May 23 03:34
oiaohmOS X is from XP time frame.May 23 03:34
DaemonFCnoMay 23 03:34
DaemonFCOS X original wasMay 23 03:34
DaemonFCit's gotten much more bloatedMay 23 03:34
DaemonFCand the 10.0 release was buggyMay 23 03:34
DaemonFCand unstableMay 23 03:34
twitterSomething is wrong with that story.May 23 03:34
DaemonFCand incompleteMay 23 03:35
DaemonFCyou couldn't watch DVDs on it for exampleMay 23 03:35
DaemonFCso they shipped with OS 9May 23 03:35
DaemonFCand gave you the 10.0 disc separatelyMay 23 03:35
oiaohmhttp://support.apple.com/kb/HT2176  OS X still works well on 256 megs of ram.May 23 03:35
DaemonFCit wasn't good enough to pre-installMay 23 03:35
oiaohmTime frame in required resources.May 23 03:35
twitterArgh, it's source is Ina Fried - discount with extreme prejudiceMay 23 03:35
DaemonFCright, but 10.0 was basically sending people back to OS 9May 23 03:36
DaemonFCin horrorMay 23 03:36
DaemonFCso it's not like Apple has never had this happenMay 23 03:36
DaemonFCthey did give out 10.1 discs for freeMay 23 03:36
the_mad_hatterI've run 10.3 on an antique MacBook, worked fine.May 23 03:36
DaemonFCto people that got screwed with 10.0May 23 03:36
the_mad_hatterIn regards the US ArmyMay 23 03:36
the_mad_hatterTame RIAA politicians denounce other countriesMay 23 03:36
the_mad_hatterhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137422/tame-riaa-politicians-denounce-countriesMay 23 03:36
DaemonFCyeah, why would they waste all that money when Windows 7 will be out in months?May 23 03:36
oiaohmApple provide both OS's at time of 10.May 23 03:36
oiaohmThey spected teething problems.May 23 03:36
DaemonFCWe're going to Vista with 700,000 systems, then 7 next year?May 23 03:37
DaemonFCshitMay 23 03:37
the_mad_hatterfrom the articleMay 23 03:37
the_mad_hatterIf the Big Music Mafiaa would have its way, World War Three might then be started over a file-shared Britney Spears tune or copy of Rocky 9, with NATO allies the first to be nuked.May 23 03:37
twitterIt's Ina Fried bullshitMay 23 03:37
DaemonFCyeah, OS X had major problemsMay 23 03:37
DaemonFCthat's why they gave 10.1 for freeMay 23 03:37
oiaohmNo look closer.  Apple does not sell OS upgrades.May 23 03:37
twitterthis is the supposed source, but I still don't believe it http://www.army.mil/-news/2009/05/20/21389-army-migrating-computers-to-vista/May 23 03:37
DaemonFCyes they doMay 23 03:38
oiaohmApple is not a software company.May 23 03:38
the_mad_hatterThat's covered quite well at Roughly Drafted, there's several good articles about the evolution of OSXMay 23 03:38
DaemonFCI have upgrade discsMay 23 03:38
DaemonFCbought FROM AppleMay 23 03:38
oiaohmThey sell hardware upgrades to allow you to run new version.May 23 03:38
DaemonFCnoMay 23 03:38
DaemonFCthey sell upgrade discsMay 23 03:38
oiaohmThat is the disk.May 23 03:38
oiaohmNot the software on it.May 23 03:38
DaemonFCnoMay 23 03:38
twitterWest Point knows better so it's hard to believe the US army would be dumb enough to buy another version of Windows ever again.May 23 03:38
oiaohmRead licence carefuly.May 23 03:38
DaemonFCI mean my system came with 10.3May 23 03:38
oiaohmIf you have 10 machinesMay 23 03:38
the_mad_hatterThey did sell upgrade disks. They no longer do.May 23 03:38
DaemonFCI have the 10.4 upgradeMay 23 03:38
oiaohmYou only need to buy 1 disk.May 23 03:38
oiaohmThey are not selling you the software.May 23 03:39
the_mad_hatterAnd there was no 10.5 upgrade. Instead you got the whole works.May 23 03:39
twitterah ha, " The Army is migrating all of its Windows-based computers to Microsoft Vista"  All that will be left.May 23 03:40
the_mad_hatterApple no longer sells upgrades, which is an advantage. I remember having to install the original OS, and then go through several upgrades, and damn, you were in trouble if you forgot where you put the manual, and were missing even on keyMay 23 03:40
the_mad_hattersorry, should have read "one key".May 23 03:40
the_mad_hatterThat happened to me once. Frustrating as hell. I prefer Linux, no CD keys.May 23 03:41
oiaohmKey stuck to side of machne that kids had destroyed was fun.May 23 03:41
oiaohmSending photo of machine to apple saying please give me a new key.  And I got it.May 23 03:41
oiaohmMS other hand screwed.May 23 03:41
the_mad_hatterJust curious, anyone have a Blue Ray player?May 23 03:42
twitterBasically, the US Army is going against what it knows is best policy to bail out M$'s failed OS.May 23 03:42
oiaohmI don't my dvd player has not died no need to upgrde.May 23 03:43
the_mad_hatterOh shit, Charlie's on a rampage again <G>May 23 03:43
twittergoodMay 23 03:43
the_mad_hatterTukwila delayed until 2010 - Charlie DemerjianMay 23 03:43
the_mad_hatterhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137434/tukwila-delayed-2010May 23 03:43
the_mad_hatterGrabs the crown from Duke Nukem ForeverMay 23 03:43
DaemonFCso you can still upgrade right?May 23 03:44
DaemonFCto the new Mac OS releases?May 23 03:44
DaemonFCmeh, it's easy to install Vista if you don't have a serial :PMay 23 03:45
DaemonFCbut I wouldn't know anything about thatMay 23 03:45
oiaohmMac OS went to bios like stored key so avoiding the hell.May 23 03:46
DaemonFCsame as VistaMay 23 03:46
oiaohmNot all units.May 23 03:46
DaemonFCXP also had that capabilityMay 23 03:46
DaemonFCno, every OEM Vista machien has oneMay 23 03:46
oiaohmNot white box class DaemonFCMay 23 03:47
oiaohmThat makes up most of the OEM sales.May 23 03:47
DaemonFChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Locked_PreinstallationMay 23 03:47
oiaohmmajor OEM computer manufacturers  << Did you miss that.May 23 03:48
oiaohmNot all do.May 23 03:48
oiaohmSystem Locked Preinstallation is not what Mac OS is.May 23 03:49
the_mad_hatterAs long as Charlie is still there, the Inq will still have something.May 23 03:50
oiaohmMac OS is basically using the Motherboard serial number as key to OS DaemonFC.May 23 03:50
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 03:51
oiaohmThey still operate under the old solarias model of doing business.  You aquired the hardware you get the software for nothing.May 23 03:51
DaemonFCsounds like SLPMay 23 03:51
DaemonFCOS X is not freeMay 23 03:51
oiaohmIf you want disks with software on you pay.May 23 03:52
oiaohmNeither was solarias DaemonFC.  Both are the same sales model.May 23 03:52
oiaohmCheep if you own a lot of machines.May 23 03:52
oiaohmExpesnive as hell if you only own 1.May 23 03:52
twitterheh, the US army does bad math.May 23 03:54
twitterIna Fried took it up.May 23 03:54
twitterThey say that 13% have Vista and that's 44,000 computersMay 23 03:54
twitterthis makes a projected total of 340,000 desktopsMay 23 03:55
twitterbut the article also says that the Army has 740,000 desktopsMay 23 03:55
twitterThat means more than half of the US army's desktops are running something other than Windows.May 23 03:55
twitteror the reporter has math problems.May 23 03:55
oiaohmCorrectMay 23 03:56
twitterIf you believe what West Point has to say, it's not a math problem.May 23 03:56
oiaohmLot of weapon control systems run Linux or Solarias or some other Unix.May 23 03:56
twitterhttp://slashdot.org/submission/1003983/West-Point-Maxes-Security-by-Minning-WindowsMay 23 03:56
twitterbut weapons control systems are not "desktops" are they?May 23 03:56
oiaohmTaticallical control operation systems are.May 23 03:57
oiaohmThey are those huge port lugables that are basically bomb proff.May 23 03:57
oiaohmThere are somethings you don't trust windows on.May 23 03:58
the_mad_hatterYeah, everything.May 23 03:58
oiaohmAlso windows has not passed clearance for highly classified data either.May 23 03:59
the_mad_hatterAnd never will.May 23 03:59
oiaohmRedhat did.May 23 03:59
the_mad_hatterUnless Microsoft bribes the test team.May 23 03:59
the_mad_hatterYeah, but that's Linux.May 23 03:59
twitteror redefines "security" againMay 23 03:59
the_mad_hatterBribes.May 23 04:00
the_mad_hatterBribes always work.May 23 04:00
DaemonFCthere's better ways to do things than UNIXMay 23 04:01
DaemonFCbut they just never tookMay 23 04:01
the_mad_hatterHere's another one - How Geeks Really PartyMay 23 04:01
the_mad_hatterEverclear, liquid nitrogen and Phenoms make a partyMay 23 04:01
DaemonFCeven the original inventors of UNIX redid everything with Plan 9May 23 04:01
the_mad_hatterhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1137436/everclear-liquid-nitrogen-phenoms-partyMay 23 04:02
the_mad_hatterYeah, well AT&T Unix was fairly open.May 23 04:02
DaemonFCnoMay 23 04:02
DaemonFCnot openMay 23 04:02
the_mad_hatterThat is why it took off, and the others didn't.May 23 04:02
DaemonFCjust stupidly licensed source codeMay 23 04:02
the_mad_hatterFairly I said.May 23 04:02
oiaohmStandard Unix without selinux or better tech does not pass the required tests.May 23 04:03
the_mad_hatterYes, you could get the source. You couldn't with anything else.May 23 04:03
DaemonFCthey weren't trying to make it open or encourage it to be clonedMay 23 04:03
DaemonFCthe way of thinking back then was differentMay 23 04:03
oiaohmFor high classification.May 23 04:03
the_mad_hatterNo, but that was the result.May 23 04:03
DaemonFCand they did a lot of stupid thingsMay 23 04:03
DaemonFCwith regards to trying to keep it proprietaryMay 23 04:03
oiaohmWindows NT has equal evils.May 23 04:03
DaemonFCevery OS sucks at some pointMay 23 04:04
oiaohmLinux is only starting to remove X11 from needing root.May 23 04:04
DaemonFCit's just unfortunate that none of them can really take the micromanagement outMay 23 04:04
oiaohmSolarias did that years ago.May 23 04:04
DaemonFCbarfMay 23 04:05
DaemonFC:PMay 23 04:05
DaemonFCsorry, you said the X wordMay 23 04:05
twitterX11 rocksMay 23 04:05
oiaohmIt will rock.May 23 04:05
twitteruseful from embedded systems upMay 23 04:05
oiaohmcurrently it still has issues.May 23 04:05
twitterEverything has issues when you are around Ohm.May 23 04:06
the_mad_hatterTechnologically it's outpacing Microsloth development.May 23 04:06
twitterbad decision making documented http://slashdot.org/submission/1006103/US-Army-Moves-to-VistaMay 23 04:06
twitterX11 outpaced everyone back in 1983 when it was created at MIT.May 23 04:06
twitterM$ will never catch up.May 23 04:06
twitterFree software makes excellent use of it.May 23 04:07
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=wayland_q209&num=1   wayland is reworking the idea of X11.May 23 04:08
the_mad_hatterM$ is in a downward spiral.May 23 04:08
DaemonFCI hate XMay 23 04:08
DaemonFCwith undying passionMay 23 04:08
twitterOh look, my article about Au bait and switch has already been voted down.  How busy and attentive the astroturfers areMay 23 04:09
DaemonFCjust now do they start doing something to modernize itMay 23 04:09
twitterWhat exactly do you hate about X FC?May 23 04:09
DaemonFCit's like trying to take a cockroach infested slum and turning it into an upper class neighborhoodMay 23 04:09
DaemonFCit's been so neglected for so many yearsMay 23 04:09
DaemonFCI wish them all the luckMay 23 04:09
DaemonFCyou know?May 23 04:10
twitterIt's had composting transparency and acceleration since the late 90sMay 23 04:10
twitterand it was xorg was forked just a couple of years agoMay 23 04:10
DaemonFCwell they split from XFree86 over the same reasons X.org sucked for the last 5 yearsMay 23 04:10
DaemonFCand it's nice to see some leadership finallyMay 23 04:10
twitterthe framework was solid 25 years ago and development has been hot all alongMay 23 04:10
oiaohmDaemonFC: most of the core of X11 will disappear in the next 2 years.May 23 04:11
the_mad_hatterAnd that's the beauty of Free Software. If you have a problem, you can always fork.May 23 04:11
DaemonFCglacial developmentMay 23 04:11
twitterreplaced by what?May 23 04:11
oiaohmDRI2 removes all the lower systems of X11.May 23 04:11
oiaohmFrom the past.May 23 04:11
twitterWhat graphical subsystem do you think is better, FC?  Vista's ha haMay 23 04:11
the_mad_hatterCrap, Chalk River is down again.May 23 04:11
oiaohmMost of them were broken.May 23 04:11
DaemonFCKeitch Packard even said something like there were 11 new models of Radeon added all at once in one XFree86 releaseMay 23 04:11
DaemonFCafter people had been trying to use them for over a yearMay 23 04:11
DaemonFCbefore thatMay 23 04:11
DaemonFC*KeithMay 23 04:12
oiaohmWayback its a heavly cut back X11 server.May 23 04:12
twitterRadeon has always suckedMay 23 04:12
DaemonFCno actuallyMay 23 04:12
oiaohmOpps wayland.May 23 04:12
DaemonFCI thought Y had a lot of potentialMay 23 04:12
DaemonFCbut it never took offMay 23 04:12
DaemonFCsadlyMay 23 04:12
the_mad_hatterFYI, Chalk River supplies half of the world's medical radioactive isotopes. The Reactor is over 40 years old.May 23 04:12
DaemonFChttp://www.y-windows.org/May 23 04:12
oiaohmWayland lot of Y developers have end up in it.May 23 04:12
twitterJust keep using Vista, FC, I'm sure that will keep you happy.  ha haMay 23 04:12
DaemonFCY was GPLMay 23 04:13
DaemonFCX isn'tMay 23 04:13
twitterthe beauty of free software is that it just keeps getting betterMay 23 04:13
DaemonFCthat's another thingMay 23 04:13
DaemonFCdependsMay 23 04:13
DaemonFCif you have assmonkeys that put it together backwardsMay 23 04:13
DaemonFClike UbuntuMay 23 04:13
twitterit's already better than commercial systems and the gap is growing.May 23 04:13
the_mad_hatterUbuntu beat Vista hands down. Even though there are some flaws.May 23 04:14
DaemonFCBAHAHAHAHA!!!!May 23 04:14
the_mad_hatterFor example the use of Gnome.May 23 04:14
twitterlolMay 23 04:14
DaemonFCI had more trouble with Ubuntu screwing up gratuitously than Vista+XPMay 23 04:14
DaemonFCput togetherMay 23 04:14
twitterGnome is not my favoriteMay 23 04:14
the_mad_hatterI regard that as a flaw, due to the integration of Evolution into the desktop.May 23 04:14
twitterI hate to blame the user, FC, but ...May 23 04:14
DaemonFCnot my faultMay 23 04:15
the_mad_hatterYou'd think that the Gnome people work for Microsoft.May 23 04:15
DaemonFCI tried to fix it's deep rooted screw upsMay 23 04:15
twitterWhy don't you try a reasonable distroMay 23 04:15
DaemonFCI even tried to approach the developersMay 23 04:15
DaemonFCbut they are all primadonnasMay 23 04:15
DaemonFCthey won't be told that they did something badMay 23 04:15
oiaohmWayland features are about allowing distribution merge.   Y was designed to compete not merge in the competition.May 23 04:15
oiaohmSo you need to run something that is a framebuffer applications with Wayland you can.May 23 04:16
DaemonFCI've already explained the Pulseaudio+ALSA+Intel HDA catastrophe more times than I care toMay 23 04:16
DaemonFCwith Ubuntu that isMay 23 04:16
twitterWhy not use a distro that does not use pulseaudio ?May 23 04:17
DaemonFCbecause Pulseaudio is fineMay 23 04:17
DaemonFCUbuntu is a bunch of assclownsMay 23 04:17
twitterLOLMay 23 04:17
twitterIt's fine or it's a catastrophe?May 23 04:17
DaemonFCcall me when the Jaunty JerkoffMay 23 04:18
oiaohmPulseaudio is not file.May 23 04:18
DaemonFCis overMay 23 04:18
DaemonFC:PMay 23 04:18
oiaohmfine.May 23 04:18
twitterwhat is an assclown anyway?May 23 04:18
oiaohmThere are a lot of glitchs in PulseaudioMay 23 04:18
twitterIs it someone who makes donkeys laugh?May 23 04:18
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdJSMUSZHMM&feature=relatedMay 23 04:19
oiaohmRunning  multiable X11 servers side by side will allow distribution merges to happen.   So changing landscape.May 23 04:19
DaemonFCtypical reaction from an X11 userMay 23 04:20
twitterI'm afraid to watch your video FC, you seem all upset about UbuntuMay 23 04:20
DaemonFC:PMay 23 04:20
twitterand you think about assMay 23 04:20
twitterhttp://www.google.com/search?q=asclown&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8May 23 04:20
DaemonFCA moron , someone of inferior intellect. A person who is obviously stupid. A knob-head.May 23 04:21
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 04:21
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 04:21
DaemonFCI'll go with thatMay 23 04:21
DaemonFCWhen a person acts like an asshole AND a clown at the same time.May 23 04:21
DaemonFCthat also worksMay 23 04:21
oiaohmThe biggest trouble to running multiable distributions side by side on 1 kernel is the X11 server.May 23 04:23
oiaohmAudio is barely an annoyance.May 23 04:23
twitterX works for me.  You guys are crazy.  ;-)May 23 04:29
twitteroh yeah, I forgot to mention M$FT was back under their $20 rock again.May 23 04:31
twitterEnding the week at $19.75, let the slide begin for real.May 23 04:32
DaemonFCI had money in them, I took it all out last yearMay 23 04:33
DaemonFCwasn't a lotMay 23 04:33
DaemonFCI broke evenMay 23 04:35
twitterhow's this for assclown http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE54K5XM20090521May 23 04:35
twitter?May 23 04:36
twitter"Give my your money and I will still be the richest person in the US.  No recession here," said Mr. Gates.May 23 04:36
twitter"The software, IT revolution -- we're just at the start of that"  Welcome to the 21st century!May 23 04:37
twitterThe rest of us have been here for a decade.May 23 04:37
twitterSharepoint turns users off after 180 days, ha haMay 23 04:46
twitterhttp://www.crn.com/software/217600668May 23 04:46
twitter"  Jeff Teper, corporate vice president of the Office SharePoint Server Group at Microsoft, said the problem stems from the product expiration date being improperly activated during the installation of SharePoint 2007 SP2. This causes SharePoint to function as a trial version and shut down after six months."May 23 04:47
twitterthe sooner the better for usersMay 23 04:48
oiaohmAnother group of user learning about the land mines of product activation.May 23 04:50
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twitterThe lies told by non free software owners are amazingMay 23 04:52
DaemonFCso?May 23 04:52
twitterthey depend on who they talk toMay 23 04:52
DaemonFCreenter your product keyMay 23 04:52
DaemonFCand it's back upMay 23 04:52
twitterTo end users, they talk about getting value out of "lazy programmers"May 23 04:53
twitterTo programmers, they talk about extracting money from "cheap users"May 23 04:53
twitterto investors, they talk about squeezing both.May 23 04:54
twitterwhich story is true?  All are robbed.May 23 04:54
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DaemonFCmehMay 23 04:54
oiaohmMaking the trial version and release version the same is trouble.May 23 04:54
oiaohmLock outs happen from time to time with that combination.May 23 04:55
twitterthinking there's a difference between trial and release is troubleMay 23 04:55
twitterrelease is always the last trial, with a little bugfixMay 23 04:55
oiaohmOld style release version would not install without key.  But once installed did not have a disactave.May 23 04:56
twitterold style versions required punch cardsMay 23 04:56
oiaohmWindows 2000 was old style.May 23 04:56
twitterbut the software was freeMay 23 04:56
twitternon free software was a short blip, soon to be forgottenMay 23 04:57
oiaohmThere will always be some non free software.May 23 04:57
twitterthose who taste freedom never go backMay 23 04:57
twitternon free software almost always steals from public domain.May 23 04:58
twitterfree software extracts the value betterMay 23 04:58
twitterand is sustainableMay 23 04:58
oiaohmSome non free exist in the free software world.May 23 04:59
twitterit won't foreverMay 23 04:59
oiaohmIts the stuff that is closed source until enough payed to cover development.May 23 04:59
oiaohmThere is a place for closed source in the open source world.May 23 05:00
twitterfree software is "paid for" in a number of ways, but it's always cheaper than the alternativesMay 23 05:00
oiaohmThese are normally customisations on particular projects.May 23 05:00
twitterthere will always be fraudMay 23 05:00
twitterthat does not justify the practiceMay 23 05:00
oiaohmPersonally I belevice there should be a requirement to release source code when products are discounued in the closed source world.May 23 05:01
oiaohmClosed source bound to maintaining it.May 23 05:02
DaemonFCyeah, there's good software abandoned with no company left that even owns itMay 23 05:04
DaemonFCsuch a wasteMay 23 05:04
oiaohmI have no problem with closed source if it is maintained.   Open source skipping out on maintaining by contract I have no problem with since you are free to pay your own people to maintain it.May 23 05:05
oiaohmMS EULA all skip out on taking responsablity to mainatain.May 23 05:06
twitterThe point of non free software is to extract things from the user by force.May 23 05:06
twitternon free software owners will never release their wasted softwareMay 23 05:06
oiaohmNot all.May 23 05:07
twitterIf they do, it's because they have become free software companiesMay 23 05:07
oiaohmID engines are normal closed soruce for a while then latter released open source.May 23 05:07
oiaohmSome companies have what I call fair policies but its rare.May 23 05:08
twitterthat pretty much makes them a free software companyMay 23 05:08
oiaohmID is more a media and engine seller.May 23 05:08
oiaohmThey don't take care of the source code they release in most cases.May 23 05:08
twitterThey develop for windows, it is a wasteMay 23 05:09
oiaohmIts basically we are finshed with this now you can do what you want with it.May 23 05:09
twitterand people doMay 23 05:09
oiaohmClosed source ID's way I have no problem with.May 23 05:09
oiaohmPeople don't end up stuck.May 23 05:09
oiaohmSo they want to recovery development costs by selling closed source for a while.  I am fine with that.May 23 05:10
DaemonFCID is cross platformMay 23 05:10
DaemonFC:)May 23 05:10
oiaohmThere is a point of blance between closed and open source that is truly good for everyone.May 23 05:11
oiaohmProblem is lot of closed source companies don't respect the blance.May 23 05:12
twitterGeek.com pans windows in favor of GNU/Linux http://www.geek.com/articles/chips/opinion-microsofts-out-linux-is-in-ubuntu-904-i-hear-your-call-20090522/May 23 05:12
twitter" Linux is a much lighter operating system than Windows. When it boots up, there is more free memory, it uses less disk space for installation, and its applications are also smaller. It also doesn’t use the same kind of registry as Windows — something in my opinion is the worst design ever for software management, and something that slow down all of our PCs immeasurably, requiring install/uninstall operations to move software froMay 23 05:13
twitterbasically the stuff everyone has noticed.May 23 05:13
oiaohmIts what makes you and me different twitter.  I don't see closed source as pure evil.   I see the idea of keeping source code secret forever evil.May 23 05:13
oiaohmSince major design flaws and the like never have to be admited to.May 23 05:14
twitterI think about freedom, you think about utility.May 23 05:14
oiaohmI more think about getting what is required best way possiable.May 23 05:15
twitterGreed for utility leads to the failed path of non free software.May 23 05:15
twitterFreedom leads to utility.May 23 05:15
oiaohmID uses closed source like a tole bridge.May 23 05:15
oiaohmOnce enough money is made no need to keep the tole.May 23 05:15
twitterTheir model is still a free software one.May 23 05:15
twitterIt's obtuse and arcane but it is eventually free.May 23 05:16
oiaohmWhile its in it closed source state it does not give you freedoms.May 23 05:16
twitter" The significance of closed-source efforts, like Windows, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player, .NET, ASP, and pretty much everything else Microsoft is involved with, are not playing out. It was recently reported by Dell that Windows 7 will cost more than Vista. How is that helping businesses and consumers? The answer is obvious: It’s not."May 23 05:17
oiaohmI have no problems with loss of freedom of the source code short term.   The damaging is like MS how many of there produces that have died do we have the source code to.May 23 05:17
twitterThe problem is M$'s intentions.May 23 05:17
twitterThey restrict to rape.May 23 05:17
oiaohmHow many companies have been destoryed by businesses making software shutting up shop too.May 23 05:17
oiaohmNo source code they die.May 23 05:18
DaemonFCthe last version of Windows that's well understood is 3.1May 23 05:18
twitter" I use a Verizon Wireless PCMCIA broadband card for mobile Internet access. I had been fearful in switching over to Ubuntu Linux on my notebook because I need that card to function. .... I see a better network response in Linux than I do in Vista with Verizon’s dedicated VZAccess Manager software."May 23 05:18
twitterha haMay 23 05:18
oiaohmClosed source is a tool need to aquire funding for some kinds of development.   Used right its good.   Abused its evil.May 23 05:19
twitterIt is expensive and wasteful to keep secrets.May 23 05:19
twitterKeeping secrets to extract control or money is wrong.May 23 05:19
oiaohmNot every user is a developer.May 23 05:19
twitterthey don't have to beMay 23 05:20
oiaohmclosed source does allow id to sell the engine to other companies.May 23 05:20
oiaohmTo recover its costs.May 23 05:20
twitterthey could probably turn to other modelsMay 23 05:20
twitterThey all have enough money to retire anywayMay 23 05:20
DaemonFCyeah, when everything is free and nobody can make a livingMay 23 05:21
DaemonFCwe'll all go live in a communeMay 23 05:21
DaemonFCright?May 23 05:21
twitterwrongMay 23 05:21
oiaohmLot of fully open source have failed that way.May 23 05:21
oiaohmGamers don't pay for support on there games.May 23 05:21
DaemonFCno, everyone should work for freeMay 23 05:21
DaemonFCasking to be paid is evilMay 23 05:21
DaemonFC:)May 23 05:21
twitterlots of non free companies and restaruants have also failed.May 23 05:22
DaemonFCso?May 23 05:22
DaemonFCthey lost in the marketMay 23 05:22
DaemonFCthat's how things work'May 23 05:22
oiaohmParticular markets require particular treatments.May 23 05:22
twitterso, Ohm was talking about free software companies failing.  so whatMay 23 05:22
oiaohmThere are some markets where closed source have no place.May 23 05:22
twitterlike all of themMay 23 05:23
oiaohmIts not all of them.May 23 05:23
twittername one market where the user would not be better off with free softwareMay 23 05:23
the_mad_hatteryeah, name one.May 23 05:24
the_mad_hatterVoting Machines?May 23 05:24
the_mad_hatterDesktop Computers?May 23 05:24
oiaohmtwitter: look at the areas in open source were we have poor development.May 23 05:24
the_mad_hatterMissile Control systems?May 23 05:24
twitterI don't think he has one.May 23 05:25
oiaohmMost of those do well with some closed source.May 23 05:25
oiaohmGames are a major.May 23 05:25
the_mad_hatterAirplane control computers?May 23 05:25
the_mad_hatterWhy are games a major?May 23 05:25
twitterI think he tried to say game users are better off without freedom.May 23 05:25
twitterlolMay 23 05:25
oiaohmThere is also software customisations done with closed source.May 23 05:25
the_mad_hatterYes, he wants to screw gamersMay 23 05:25
oiaohmGames takes a lot of  resourses to develop the engine.May 23 05:26
the_mad_hatterHold on - you haven't explained why gamers are better off closed source.May 23 05:26
oiaohmWithout that funded it will not happen.May 23 05:26
twitterMy wife thought of a mod to Wii the other day.  She realized instantly that she would never see that mod because Wii is not free software.May 23 05:26
the_mad_hatterIt takes a lot of resources to produce an operating system. Without funding, it won't happen.May 23 05:26
the_mad_hattercorrect?May 23 05:27
oiaohmLinux got its funding from hardware makers.May 23 05:27
twitterThere are plenty of free software games - the problem is M$ control of hardware makers and denial of 3d accelerationMay 23 05:27
oiaohmParticular markets its hard to get the funding streams.May 23 05:27
the_mad_hatterSo you are suggesting that ATI and Nividia should fund games.May 23 05:27
twitterGNU/Linux got funding from everyowhere.May 23 05:27
the_mad_hatterSounds reasonable.May 23 05:27
twitterATI and Nividia have funded games, just non free onesMay 23 05:28
oiaohmProblem is ATI and Nvidia really don't much enough money to fund a large set of games.May 23 05:28
twitterultimately M$ benefits more than they didMay 23 05:28
oiaohmHardware support can only go so far.May 23 05:28
the_mad_hatterThere's more games available for Linux than there is for Windows.May 23 05:28
twitterWith hardware support out of the way, free software games are just as good as anyMay 23 05:28
the_mad_hatterSo why, if you are correct, is this so?May 23 05:29
oiaohmGames using latest tech the_mad_hatter.May 23 05:29
twitterThe best games, like those ID makes, are best because they take a lot of user input - artwork, storylines etcMay 23 05:29
oiaohmID even when there engine is closed source they still allow mods.May 23 05:29
the_mad_hatterWhy are the new free software games showing equivalent graphics to the closed source games?May 23 05:29
twitterSo, software freedom makes games betterMay 23 05:30
the_mad_hatterHow will the closed source game makers compete, with free games that are just as good?May 23 05:30
the_mad_hatterLet's face it. Most of them are fucked.May 23 05:30
oiaohmStory graphics engine.May 23 05:30
the_mad_hatterID will do fine. Blizzard will do fine. Most of the rest are dead, they just don't know it yet.May 23 05:31
twitterothers will emerge to provide services, places to play, etcMay 23 05:31
the_mad_hatterAnd the reason ID and Blizzard will do well, is they've developed their communities.May 23 05:31
the_mad_hatterDo any of you know Gary Martin?May 23 05:31
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oiaohmID has never been that abusive to there end users.May 23 05:32
oiaohmBlizzard has a up and down history.May 23 05:32
the_mad_hatterNo, and that's why ID does well. Blizzard has their faults, but compared to most of the others they look great.May 23 05:32
ReverseGTRoiaohm, ID just verbally abuses their users for choosing certain hardware :PMay 23 05:33
the_mad_hatterAnyway, do any of you know Gary?May 23 05:33
twittersilence = noMay 23 05:34
the_mad_hatterOK, Gary wrote a BBS based game called Trade Wars 2002 in the early 90sMay 23 05:34
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, I think I rented that game once, but I got bored quick with itMay 23 05:35
the_mad_hatterIt was inexpensive ($15.00) when most BBS games went for $100.00, so it got popular fast.May 23 05:35
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, I was more into shooters back thenMay 23 05:35
the_mad_hatterA bunch of people, me included, got interested in what could be done with it.May 23 05:35
twitterhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Martin_(programmer)May 23 05:35
the_mad_hatterWith Gary's blessings, we created a huge number of add-ons. The most insane of which was mine.May 23 05:36
the_mad_hatterBy some clever hacking, I managed to "expand" the game from 1000 sectors to 20000 sectors.May 23 05:36
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, sounds like the kind of game Master of Orion, Battle for Alpha Centauri and even Planet Side was inspired byMay 23 05:36
the_mad_hatterProbably. Anyway, because there were so many addons, trade wars became more popular.May 23 05:37
oiaohmLot of game companies make that mistake.May 23 05:37
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, also DeadlockMay 23 05:37
oiaohmAddons extend the live of the game.May 23 05:37
the_mad_hatterAll because Gary was willing to let us play. The same thing was tried with another game, but it stopped fast when the author threatened to sue.May 23 05:38
oiaohmID worked that out early on.May 23 05:38
ReverseGTRoiaohm, thats how Tribes became a franchiseMay 23 05:38
ReverseGTRoiaohm, and a bad example being The SimsMay 23 05:38
twitter oiaohm: Addons extend the live of the game. <- value to user is bad for OhmMay 23 05:38
oiaohmSims still sells well.May 23 05:38
the_mad_hatterAnyway, Open works. Closed, well it's great if you are talking a bank vault, useless for anything else.May 23 05:38
DaemonFCewwwwMay 23 05:38
DaemonFCWill WrightMay 23 05:38
ReverseGTRoiaohm, it only sells well amongst a smaller hardcore following though, at least to meMay 23 05:38
DaemonFCanything he makes sucksMay 23 05:39
twittergo back to sleep FCMay 23 05:39
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, if you have a problem with the DRM in Spore, take it up with EAMay 23 05:39
DaemonFCSpore is only pirated out of protestMay 23 05:39
DaemonFCthe game sucksMay 23 05:39
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, still waiting on Duke Nukem Forever ehMay 23 05:39
DaemonFCnah, it's easier to crack my way around itMay 23 05:39
the_mad_hatterAnd this is why the Free Software/GPL gaming revolution is taking off. People want to be part of the game, not just a "consumer"May 23 05:39
oiaohmMixture between closed and open has made some great companies.May 23 05:39
DaemonFCnever wasMay 23 05:39
DaemonFCall two games?May 23 05:40
the_mad_hatterIt's why Wikipedia killed Encarta.May 23 05:40
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, the one cool thing about Spore is it brought the potential of easy to use 3D custom shape making tools out to the forefront for gamingMay 23 05:40
DaemonFCthere's more notable commercial games in any given month than in open source in the last 10 yearsMay 23 05:40
the_mad_hatterIt's why the Internet killed AOL/GenieMay 23 05:40
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, Little Big Planet is also taking a closed approach to the custom crazeMay 23 05:40
oiaohmEncarta was not that great in the first place.May 23 05:41
DaemonFCnoMay 23 05:41
DaemonFCthe internet won out cause all the proprietary networks were smaller and incompatibleMay 23 05:41
DaemonFC:PMay 23 05:41
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, Ask Jeeves and Websters Online were biggerMay 23 05:41
DaemonFCrare case of the open standard winningMay 23 05:41
the_mad_hatterIn that case you haven't looked at the Free Software games available.May 23 05:41
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, most people used Encarta becaus at one point most people used MSNMay 23 05:42
oiaohmBiggest issue in Free Software games is model quality and other finishing work.May 23 05:42
the_mad_hatterThe Open Standard will always win, if it's use is not blocked.May 23 05:42
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - so go volunteer.May 23 05:43
twitterI never used MSN and you would be hard pressed to prove "most" people didMay 23 05:43
the_mad_hatterIt's how Free Software gets better.May 23 05:43
the_mad_hatterMSN = JUNKMay 23 05:43
twitterThat would be like saying "most people" used AOL.May 23 05:43
ReverseGTRtwitter, it happened after most got disenfranchised with AOHellMay 23 05:43
ReverseGTRtwitter, what else gave them the brite idea for MSN TV?May 23 05:43
the_mad_hatterPeople prefer open. The most widely used video file format is AVIMay 23 05:44
twitterat best, you are talking about a majority of a minorityMay 23 05:44
the_mad_hatterThe most widely used music file format is MP3May 23 05:44
DaemonFCI used AOL for years but never paid anything for itMay 23 05:44
twittersoon the most used format will be oggMay 23 05:44
DaemonFCso that was really the only reasonMay 23 05:44
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter: volunteer is not the solution here.   People still need to eat.   The finishing work to take a model from ok to great is huge numbers of hours per model.May 23 05:44
twitterpeople always need to eatMay 23 05:44
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, you just went from trial disc to trial disc?May 23 05:44
twitterthat does not keep them from sharing when they canMay 23 05:45
the_mad_hatterWMV and WMA were big failures for Microsloth. Yes, I agree, Ogg is the next big thing.May 23 05:45
DaemonFCI used various tricks to keep making fake accountsMay 23 05:45
DaemonFC:PMay 23 05:45
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - I'm not stopping you from eating. Go ahead.May 23 05:45
DaemonFCand to turn off the billing counterMay 23 05:45
twittereveryone has to earn a living, no one has to do it by mugging people or writing non free softwareMay 23 05:45
oiaohmIf todo that work for nothing will mean they will stave they cannot do it twitter.May 23 05:45
oiaohmFunding has to be aquired some how.May 23 05:46
DaemonFCAOL had areas that would stop the counter, like if you were on their billing pageMay 23 05:46
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - of course they can. And make money while doing it. Ask Red Hat, they are doing fine.May 23 05:46
DaemonFCso I had a utility that would open the billing page then minimize itMay 23 05:46
DaemonFCso the counter would stay frozenMay 23 05:46
twitterRMS earned a living writing free software.May 23 05:46
oiaohmPeople who say no closed source never put up solutions in all market areas.May 23 05:46
twitterI don't know why you think you can't be paid to write free software.May 23 05:46
oiaohmtwitter: some areas it is just really hard pure open source to get funding.May 23 05:47
twitterOhm, you just go around in circlesMay 23 05:47
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, interesting and pretty bad job by their programmers, unless they were in on itMay 23 05:47
the_mad_hatterI know several people making a living from free software. Of course I also know several poor bastards working for Microsoft....May 23 05:47
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, do they live in India?May 23 05:47
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - really? In that case you aren't doing it right.May 23 05:47
twitterFree software is a tremendous success, no one starved writing it and it will soon replace all non free software.May 23 05:47
the_mad_hatterNo, USA and Canada.May 23 05:48
the_mad_hatterOnly people I know in India, work at a forklift manufacturing plant.May 23 05:48
oiaohmThe projects that develop the best have funding twitter.May 23 05:48
oiaohmFrom one area or another.May 23 05:48
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, oh Canada eh, must be quite a commute for themMay 23 05:48
DaemonFCat this rate, it should only take linux about 3,000 yearsMay 23 05:48
the_mad_hatterheh. it's all online.May 23 05:48
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - define "funding"May 23 05:49
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, all open source genre games will be done with variations of the Quake and Half Life engine :PMay 23 05:49
twitterSo, ohm, if the "best" free software has funding, how does free software starve programmers?May 23 05:49
twitteryou can't have it both waysMay 23 05:49
twitterbut I can say that software freedom does not depend on big dumb company funding.May 23 05:49
twitterit is a matter of communityMay 23 05:50
twitterand manifest economic advantagesMay 23 05:50
oiaohmCompanies  or people being paid to maintain it threw different ways.  This includes sales of support donations and other means.   Full time developers are required to do particular tasks.May 23 05:50
oiaohmtwitter: fund is not level accross the open source world.May 23 05:51
twitterNo, full time work is not requiredMay 23 05:51
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - why companies?May 23 05:51
twitterall that is required is a job to be done and freely available tools,May 23 05:51
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - why not individuals?May 23 05:51
oiaohmFor maintainer ship of complex projects it becomes important twitter.May 23 05:51
twitterLike GNU?May 23 05:52
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - complex products like Wikipedia?May 23 05:52
twitterha haMay 23 05:52
oiaohmWikipedia has a full time lead.May 23 05:52
twitterOnly a big dumb company could ever make an encyclopedia, right?May 23 05:52
twitterGotta be organized, buy things.May 23 05:53
twitterfire people you don't likeMay 23 05:53
oiaohmGNU is has many examples where lack of full time maintainer ship has lead to patches being merge that should never been merged.May 23 05:53
twitterextract money from your usersMay 23 05:53
oiaohmYears latter those patches turn into nightmares.May 23 05:53
twitterAnd Vista is an example of something that should never have emergedMay 23 05:53
twitteryou have to take the beam out of your non free eyesMay 23 05:54
oiaohmVista is an example what happens when you realy don't have a mainatian.May 23 05:54
twitteryes it isMay 23 05:54
oiaohmInstead split it up into 1000 different deparmentsMay 23 05:54
twitterno company can maintain what the free software world doesMay 23 05:54
oiaohmand hope the bits glue teother and work.May 23 05:54
twitterM$ can't keep up it's core OS.May 23 05:54
oiaohmOf course the odd of that working.May 23 05:55
oiaohmNot very high.May 23 05:55
twitterIt does not matter how you divide the effort, Ohm, non free software can't afford the kind of attention free software collects naturallyMay 23 05:56
oiaohmtwitter: large sections of freesoftware is not well maintained.May 23 05:56
the_mad_hatterWhat's the difference between Apple ans Microsoft?May 23 05:56
twitterNothing in the non free software world is well maintained by those standardsMay 23 05:56
oiaohmApple quality control standards they follow.May 23 05:57
oiaohmApple is unlikely ever to create a vista event.May 23 05:57
twitterApple does not suck as much because they take more from the free software world and are not as greedyMay 23 05:57
oiaohmThe head of company was a programmer.May 23 05:57
oiaohmSo he knew when someone was bull shitting.   Gates works on bluff to work it out.May 23 05:57
twitterBill Gates was something of a programmer - he took code out of a dumpster once.May 23 05:57
twitterpure shit has flowed sinceMay 23 05:58
the_mad_hatterNope. Difference is Apple designs things people want to buy.May 23 05:58
the_mad_hatterMicrosoft depends on monopoly.May 23 05:58
twitterpeople want to buy due to market warpingMay 23 05:58
oiaohmYou can design things people wnat to buy but if you quality control is not good.May 23 05:58
oiaohmThey will go else where.May 23 05:58
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - no you can't.May 23 05:58
oiaohmthey do.May 23 05:59
the_mad_hatterBecause if QC is bad, they don't want to buy.May 23 05:59
the_mad_hatterThink Firestone.May 23 05:59
tomsdaleIf Apple had >90% market share I think they would try to corner the market as well.May 23 06:00
the_mad_hatterNo one would buy their tires after the big QC fuckup, just about destroyed the company.May 23 06:00
tomsdalethey have shareholders to please in the first line.May 23 06:00
the_mad_hattertomsdale - and how did Microsoft get 90%? By cheating.May 23 06:00
twitterdamage control from Ball State and The New Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/21/ball_state_retracts/May 23 06:00
twitterblamed the userMay 23 06:00
twitterha haMay 23 06:00
oiaohmPeople still wanted tires in designs simpler tot heres with quality control the_mad_hatter.May 23 06:01
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - you say people want to buy shit?May 23 06:01
oiaohmSo yes can design something people want.  But if you screw the quality control in a compettive market they will buy the next closet instead that has quality control.May 23 06:02
twitterNetcraft joins the damage control party too, http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/05/20/most_iis_sites_unlikely_to_be_affected_by_webdav_vulnerability.htmlMay 23 06:02
twittershameMay 23 06:02
twitterOhm thinks it's OK to extract money for shitMay 23 06:02
DaemonFCthey got to 90% cause people bought WindowsMay 23 06:02
the_mad_hatteroiaohm doesn't work in manufacturing, that's for sure.May 23 06:02
twitterno choice, FCMay 23 06:02
DaemonFCand they bought Windows cause they thought it was worth moneyMay 23 06:02
DaemonFCthat's how an economy worksMay 23 06:03
twittermonopoly, FCMay 23 06:03
DaemonFCwrongMay 23 06:03
DaemonFCApple is more of a monopoly than Microsoft isMay 23 06:03
twitteryou need to read more of M$'s emailMay 23 06:03
DaemonFCyou don't have to buy Windows with a PCMay 23 06:03
tomsdaleDaemonFC: once upon a time they had the better marketing and were the new upcoming thing so everyone bought it although OS2 warp was superiourMay 23 06:03
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - no, people got Windows because OEMs installed it as a differentiating factorMay 23 06:04
twitteryou pay no matter once, FCMay 23 06:04
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter  the funny part I do.   I have seen cases where design is perfect.  Quality quality crap.  remake the product same design quality controlled different brand profit.May 23 06:04
oiaohmSo it was not that people did not want the item.May 23 06:04
oiaohmBy its design.May 23 06:04
DaemonFCpeople bought their way to this pointMay 23 06:04
DaemonFCquite willinglyMay 23 06:04
the_mad_hatterYou know under ISO 9000 you could make a boat out of concrete, and it would pass QC?May 23 06:04
DaemonFCmaybe it's more convenient to buy Windows but you don't *have* toMay 23 06:04
twitterDid you see what M$ did to stamp out GNU/Linux at Walmart?May 23 06:04
oiaohmyou need two factors to sell a item.May 23 06:05
DaemonFCthey didn't do anythingMay 23 06:05
oiaohmGood quality control.May 23 06:05
twitterM$ makes sure Winblows is always the cheapest optionMay 23 06:05
DaemonFCLinspire suckedMay 23 06:05
oiaohmand good design.May 23 06:05
DaemonFCmajorlyMay 23 06:05
oiaohmgood quality control you never damage your brand.May 23 06:05
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - QC is part of design.May 23 06:05
oiaohmSo people will always look at your designs.May 23 06:05
DaemonFCit's a good thing Linux got kicked off the shelf at Walmart, because they used Linspire and other crap distrosMay 23 06:05
the_mad_hatterbrand is an oxymoron, invented by those who don't want to waste money on QCMay 23 06:05
DaemonFCand Linux is never the selling point of a PCMay 23 06:06
DaemonFCthey only ever put it on cheap PCsMay 23 06:06
the_mad_hatterAnd thus on proper design.May 23 06:06
DaemonFCcheap PCs with minimal specs for rock bottom priceMay 23 06:06
oiaohmQC is not always part of the designs.  One case company was going under because they were skipping quality control checking on end of production line.May 23 06:06
oiaohmWhat does that have to do with the design.May 23 06:06
oiaohmManager was saving a few dollars to end up lossing massive numbers of customers.May 23 06:07
the_mad_hatterIf QC isn't part of the design, the company will lose sales. Think of it as Evolution in Action.May 23 06:07
DaemonFCmy point is, no wonder people say Linux sucks when you hand them some rinky dink little no name distro that sucksMay 23 06:07
DaemonFCon a sub-par PCMay 23 06:07
tomsdaleThe average user can't enjoy the freedom I do on Linux because linux is too difficult for them.May 23 06:07
the_mad_hatterChapter 11 through that door.May 23 06:07
oiaohmQC has to be enforced.May 23 06:07
oiaohmYou can design it in but if it not done.  Your quality control still will suck.May 23 06:08
the_mad_hatterQC has to be part of design. If it isn't, you're fucked.May 23 06:08
DaemonFCUbuntu is difficult because in striving to make it simple they long surpassed the point at which it was useful to meMay 23 06:08
oiaohmIf its part of the design and its not done you are still fucked the_mad_hatterMay 23 06:08
the_mad_hatteryou really don't get it do you? You aren't an engineer.May 23 06:08
oiaohmengineers design it in.May 23 06:09
tomsdaleoiaohm: I think that goes in line with the new proposed law to hold developers responsible ... help me out there - was in the news recentlyhMay 23 06:09
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, you probably just don't like it because they are trying to give it a mainstream finish all the while it relies on cutting edge libraries for their latest builds which are usually buggyMay 23 06:09
DaemonFCthey really need to think past the Windows 95-style dsktop metaphor and move on to expand hardware support or somethingMay 23 06:09
oiaohmBut its management who have to make sure it done.May 23 06:09
the_mad_hatterActually they don't. That's why they take their orders from me.May 23 06:09
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, its usually good to stay a distro behind if you want something reliableMay 23 06:09
DaemonFCUbuntu is not cutting edgeMay 23 06:09
DaemonFCit's merely buggyMay 23 06:09
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, well because it uses different libraries and commands then other distrosMay 23 06:09
DaemonFCtheir LTS releases are just as bad if not worseMay 23 06:10
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, or I mean how they are phrased and arrangedMay 23 06:10
DaemonFCand they don't know how to fix any of the bugsMay 23 06:10
DaemonFCthey rely 100% on upstream to fix themMay 23 06:10
tomsdalestill ubuntu seems to get the marketing right - I heard from people instlaling ubuntu because they just heard it was cool.May 23 06:10
DaemonFCmost of the timeMay 23 06:10
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter: design is half the problem.  management to make sure the right things happen is the other half.May 23 06:10
the_mad_hatterManagement? You've got to be fucking kidding.May 23 06:10
DaemonFCso they have no authority on their own distroMay 23 06:10
twitterHa ha, another interview from the Ex MicroSerf now GNU/Linux user http://www.cio.com/article/493224/Ex_Microsoftie_Free_Software_Will_Kill_Redmond?page=3May 23 06:10
tomsdaleis that the new book?May 23 06:10
the_mad_hatterManagment exists to pay rent, and cut paychecks.May 23 06:11
tomsdalesuch a heartly change fo heart.May 23 06:11
the_mad_hatterNot do QC.May 23 06:11
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter: management are the major cause of QC failures.May 23 06:11
DaemonFCUbuntu is as condescending as the Mac, as error-prone as Windows XP, and has the software support of LinuxMay 23 06:11
twitter->Other than adopting Linux, there is little Microsoft can do. Even if they did embrace it, not only would it hurt their profit margins, they'd be forced to explain to customers why they should continue to pay for Office if the company believes the free OpenOffice is good enough.May 23 06:11
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter: lets cut a few cents here.May 23 06:11
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - senior management wouldn't know QC if it bit them on the ass.May 23 06:11
DaemonFCit truly bridges the divide :PMay 23 06:11
twitterthis from a man who worked for M$ more than 11 yearsMay 23 06:11
oiaohmthe_mad_hatter: It depends on the company.May 23 06:12
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - it does depend on the company.May 23 06:12
twitterOS News covers the interview with less annoyance http://www.osnews.com/story/21543/Ex-Microsoft_Employee_Free_Software_Will_Kill_MicrosoftMay 23 06:12
the_mad_hatteroiaohm - the ones that work, use a troika setupMay 23 06:12
oiaohmIt truely does depend on the the company.May 23 06:12
ReverseGTRtwitter, its sort of funny how they say open source puts giant software developers to shame because some of the largest open source projects are monsterousMay 23 06:12
the_mad_hatterEngineering - Production - Sales&MarketingMay 23 06:13
DaemonFC"the latest is called CodePlex. While it shows that Microsoft understands the benefits of free software, this site mostly contains tiny add-ons to proprietary Microsoft products"May 23 06:13
DaemonFCI was saying thatMay 23 06:13
DaemonFCthe other dayMay 23 06:13
the_mad_hatterManagement acts as referees, to keep blood baths to a minimumMay 23 06:13
twitterso, FC, it shows they don't grasp freedom at allMay 23 06:13
the_mad_hatterAny other system of operating a company, will fail,May 23 06:14
the_mad_hatterLook at Microsoft as an example, they are on the way down now.May 23 06:14
the_mad_hatterWill Obama decide they are too big to fail? Stay tuned, news at 11.May 23 06:15
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, of course considering over 90% of computers in the government run some form of Windows, Kerplah!May 23 06:15
DaemonFChttp://www.cio.com/article/493224/Ex_Microsoftie_Free_Software_Will_Kill_Redmond?page=1May 23 06:16
DaemonFCit went to the wrong page btwMay 23 06:16
DaemonFCI don't think Microsoft will be bailed outMay 23 06:16
DaemonFCthey're nowhere near going underMay 23 06:16
DaemonFCthey're just now shedding divisions they never should have bought or started to begin withMay 23 06:17
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - actually what I expect Obama to do, is to try and transfer the GNU copyrights to Redmond, and the ensuing lawsuit going all the way to SCOTUS.May 23 06:17
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, you're right, M$ definitely has less expenses on their balance sheet than any automotive companyMay 23 06:17
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - but they cook the books.May 23 06:17
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, but they don't have to worry about a large unioned labor force eitherMay 23 06:18
tomsdaleThe GPL stands diametrical to established rules in society and business. It's a strange but fascinating.May 23 06:18
DaemonFCthey're not operating at a lossMay 23 06:18
DaemonFCnot even closeMay 23 06:18
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - Roy has links to several sites which try to untangle Microsoft accounting practises. I've read a lot of this stuff, and if it's half as accurate as I think it is, there is going to be a huge fucking boom.May 23 06:18
ReverseGTRtomsdale, its there to secure programmer's works like copyright was supposed to for artistsMay 23 06:18
DaemonFCI would have cut those divisions years agoMay 23 06:19
the_mad_hatterGPL is not diametrically opposed, it's part of the establishment.May 23 06:19
oiaohmDaemonFC: netbooks not even trying to go head to head with MS main market causes reduced proft.May 23 06:19
DaemonFCit shows they have incompetent management that waits too long to prune the bad limbsMay 23 06:19
DaemonFCbut lots of companies have thatMay 23 06:19
the_mad_hatterThat's one of the biggest fallacies on the Net these days.May 23 06:19
DaemonFCnetbooks are a noveltyMay 23 06:19
oiaohmIBM ORCALE and others will have to start looking lower down the tree to keep growning incomes.May 23 06:20
DaemonFCnetbooks are not a promary computerMay 23 06:20
DaemonFCyour primary system will be a Mac or Windows most likelyMay 23 06:20
DaemonFCso who cares if they put some gimped copy of Linux on it?May 23 06:20
the_mad_hatterNetbooks are going to take over a chunk of the market. A big chunk. To me, that means they aren't a novelty.May 23 06:20
DaemonFCand who the hell has ever heard on Linpus?May 23 06:20
oiaohmOk who in a business knows what the business server runs in most cases DaemonFCMay 23 06:21
tomsdaleReverseGTR: yes - it generally bypasses marketing and management - the two things Linux is not very good at. Too much choice - too much underground.May 23 06:21
DaemonFCthey usually put Linux on it not as a feature, but so they can make it cheapMay 23 06:21
oiaohmThat is a big section of MS income.May 23 06:21
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - sounds like some sort of venereal disease, doesn't it?May 23 06:21
DaemonFCyes it doesMay 23 06:21
oiaohmSmall businesses in particular.May 23 06:21
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, netbooks are a fashion statement, they are small really low speced subnotebooks with a special name to give an illusion of exclusivityMay 23 06:21
oiaohmThat IBM and other big makers have left alone.May 23 06:21
DaemonFC"Oh my god it burns, I think it's Linpus, I need to go to the doctor. That bitch!"May 23 06:21
DaemonFCLinpus!!!May 23 06:21
oiaohmYou will not know it as LinuxMay 23 06:22
DaemonFCthat sounds like something I'd want to use :PMay 23 06:22
tomsdaleIMO Macs are a fashion statement - this is why people are counterfeing it -> Hackingtosh.May 23 06:22
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - check Dell Mini-Inspiron 12 - netbook. $350.00 with 160 gig HD, 1 gig of ram. Ubuntu.May 23 06:22
oiaohmIBM calls it smart cube DaemonFCMay 23 06:22
tomsdaleI don't think they do that primarily because Mac OSX is the superior OS.May 23 06:22
DaemonFCthe Hackintosh is not something you could sell like thatMay 23 06:22
DaemonFCI mean the first time someone uses Apple Updates, their system is nukedMay 23 06:22
the_mad_hatterI don't consider Macs a fashion statement. If you want good hardware, buy a Mac. If you want shit hardware, buy Acer, Dell, Lenovo, etc.May 23 06:23
tomsdaleMac'S are a fashion item or you work in an industry where they are the ultimate solution for your needsMay 23 06:23
the_mad_hatterMac's are worth every penny.May 23 06:23
the_mad_hatterwhich is why I own three.May 23 06:23
DaemonFCwell, it's hard to find professional quality software for LinuxMay 23 06:23
DaemonFCand it's very expensive on WindowsMay 23 06:23
the_mad_hatterthe other computers were bought when case was tight.May 23 06:23
DaemonFCand that stuff mostly comes with a MacMay 23 06:23
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, tell that to the lucky Macbook owners whose batteries exploded and power connectors caught aflameMay 23 06:24
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - professional quality software is easier to find on Linux.May 23 06:24
DaemonFCnot really, in the end it's all pretty much incompatibleMay 23 06:24
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, or the Powerbook Titanium owners that had their keybords meltedMay 23 06:24
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - worst problem I had with a Mac, was that they don't make the power supplies Beagle proof.May 23 06:24
DaemonFCso you can't exchange files with people on Windows or MacMay 23 06:24
DaemonFCcause OpenOffice does formatting wrongMay 23 06:24
DaemonFCfor exampleMay 23 06:25
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, you Beagle died from being shocked :-oMay 23 06:25
the_mad_hatterdeamonFC - what do you mean, I exchange files between Windows, Mac, and Linux all the time, no problems.May 23 06:25
tomsdaleI find it funny that Mac owners strongly approve and advertise their systems. Almost as much as the linux zealot.May 23 06:25
DaemonFCmehMay 23 06:25
DaemonFCthey all use Microsoft Office at the end of the datMay 23 06:25
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - no, little bastard was lucky, it wasn't plugged in <G>May 23 06:25
DaemonFC*dayMay 23 06:25
DaemonFCso MS gets their pound of fleshMay 23 06:26
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, fact of the matter is whatever uniquness internally Macs had have gone out the Window once they stopped supporting PowerPCMay 23 06:26
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - I don't know any Mac owners who use Office anymore, they all use Iwork, or Open Office.May 23 06:26
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - but the hardware is do much better than what the other computer manufacturers make, it's incredible.May 23 06:27
tomsdaleso either the system is vastly superior or there is a conspiracy - I'm starting to get intrigued.May 23 06:27
DaemonFCOffice for Mac is a lot better than Office for WindowsMay 23 06:27
DaemonFCactuallyMay 23 06:27
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - I've had a ton of computers over the years, Macs are better made than anything on the market today. Way better made. They are like the Compaqs of 20 years ago. Solid.May 23 06:28
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, I find it no different then other PC hardware, if not inferior in raw specs. Its the OS and its API that takes more advantage of it and in a manner that spans to even their lowest spec modelsMay 23 06:28
DaemonFCmost Mac software Microsoft makes is better than the corresponding Windows versionMay 23 06:28
DaemonFCInternet Explorer for Mac was pretty goodMay 23 06:28
DaemonFCtotally different programMay 23 06:28
tomsdaleMy gf has a mac - she is a graphic artist so she has no choice. I tried the OS but I didn't like it. First thing that put me of is the neglectance of the Command Line xterm interfaceMay 23 06:28
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, don't let the easily scratchable plastic aluminum mix fool you, they are prone to heating up and even those cases cause an inferior Wifi signalMay 23 06:29
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - I've never seen Office for the Mac, but only an idiot would buy it. Iwork is better than Office for Windows, and cheaper. Open Office is free, and damned near as good.May 23 06:29
DaemonFCI've not had good luck with OpenOfficeMay 23 06:29
DaemonFCtheir formats are bloatedMay 23 06:29
DaemonFCtheir conversion filters mangle thingsMay 23 06:29
tomsdale2nd  - Nautilus i superior to Finder. What a joke of a file manager.May 23 06:29
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, I admit their Mac Pro towers are nice, but the fact that OSX is always a generation behind in video compatibilty is what kills it for a true bang for your buck valueMay 23 06:30
DaemonFCan ODT file is uaully at least 50% bigger than a docxMay 23 06:30
DaemonFCthat's IF it even imported it rightMay 23 06:30
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - I've nver had any problems.May 23 06:30
DaemonFCwhich is a big ifMay 23 06:30
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, but I admit the Mac cases feel niceMay 23 06:30
DaemonFCif you have to use OpenOffice, I'm sorryMay 23 06:30
DaemonFCbut Go-OO at least doesn't blow as hardMay 23 06:30
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - a lot of people I know delete OSX, and install Linux on their Macs.May 23 06:31
DaemonFCwho would do such a thing?May 23 06:31
tomsdale3rd - I hate the dock - give me a task bar. It's not possible on mac to my knowledge.May 23 06:31
DaemonFCcrime against good tasteMay 23 06:31
ReverseGTRtomsdale, Nautilus is great, I didn't know what a file managing system can be capable of until I gave it a whurlMay 23 06:31
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, why is that?May 23 06:31
the_mad_hatterI've been using Open Office at home since it was Star Office, and really like it. I use Microsoft Office at work, and compatibility between versions is a nightmareMay 23 06:31
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - linux hackers, who else <G>May 23 06:32
DaemonFCGNOME really hasn't moved on past a lot of Windows 95-ish behaviorMay 23 06:32
DaemonFCI mean it's not a direct clone, but it's closeMay 23 06:32
tomsdaleI wrote this comparison the other day in which I compared a Mac to Playmobile vs Linux = Lego.May 23 06:32
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - also audio-video production people. A lot of Macs used there, have Linux installed.May 23 06:32
DaemonFCI would never install Linux on a MacMay 23 06:33
DaemonFCunless it was just old or somethingMay 23 06:33
the_mad_hatterdaemonfc - different strokes...May 23 06:33
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, I'm still curious as to the strong appeal of Mac users switching to Linux besides cheaper softwareMay 23 06:33
tomsdalePlaymobil arrives all shiny ready to go out of the box while linux requires to put together your own bricks to create something that works for you.May 23 06:33
the_mad_hatterreversegtr - better softwareMay 23 06:34
DaemonFCWhy would you buy a Mac to put Linux on it?May 23 06:34
DaemonFCthat's like buying a Lexus and putting a Geo Metro 3 cylinder engine in itMay 23 06:34
the_mad_hatterif you are a linux programmer, and you want good hardware, you buy a mac, and nuke the OSMay 23 06:34
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, true, but many Mac faithful contest that Apple software is better because it is easier to use and has a unified theme with the desktopMay 23 06:34
tomsdaleI'd buy a mac for the applications available on it.May 23 06:34
the_mad_hattergotta go - my boys want to go for a walkMay 23 06:34
DaemonFCgood luck finding any two Linux programs that act alikeMay 23 06:35
DaemonFCunless they came with your desktop environmentMay 23 06:35
the_mad_hatterYeah, right. Apple software isn't any easier to use.May 23 06:35
the_mad_hatterMind you, OSX makes windows look like a 1982 Yugo.May 23 06:35
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, if I wanted a nice looking case for my Linux box I wouldn't have to buy a Mac, I could just get a Raptor or Thermaltake case and for notebooks Sager and MSI have nice looking sleek notebooksMay 23 06:35
the_mad_hatterBut then so does UbuntuMay 23 06:35
tomsdaleand likes to crash just as any other software out there. With the difference that it can bring down the OS.May 23 06:35
DaemonFCUbuntu is like a blast from the pastMay 23 06:36
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, hey don't bash Yugos, you would have been hard pressed finding a car of that value at below $2k :PMay 23 06:37
DaemonFClike I said, the condescending nature of the Mac, the reliability of Windows, and no software = UbuntuMay 23 06:37
tomsdalethe_mad_hatter: outint myself but I do prefer the vista 7 windowmanager to osXMay 23 06:37
DaemonFCI can't ever seem to get used to the top bar becomes the menu for the app you selectedMay 23 06:37
DaemonFC:PMay 23 06:37
DaemonFCthat's jsut weirdMay 23 06:37
tomsdaleagreed - and what's that character thing every time you rightclickMay 23 06:38
ReverseGTRdoes Ubuntu have memory protection?May 23 06:38
ReverseGTRDaemonFC, the top bar becoming the menu for every app has been around since the first Xerox PARC rolled out of the labsMay 23 06:39
tomsdalewhat do you mean by memory protection @ ReverseGTRMay 23 06:40
tomsdaleyou mean like a program can't access memory from another programMay 23 06:40
ReverseGTRtomsdale, as in if an application crashes which brings down the entire OS, does it back up any other memory to RAM so then its shifted to the hardrive and prevents data from being lost?May 23 06:41
ReverseGTRtomsdale, yea and that tooMay 23 06:41
ReverseGTRtomsdale, well the main part of memory protection is that once an application crashes the memory is quickly freed so other apps running don't get corruptedMay 23 06:43
tomsdaleReverseGTR: just asked that question in the ubuntu channel. I never had an application in ubuntu bringing down the whole system. kwin and xorg yes - but that was on alpha versions.May 23 06:43
tomsdaleI think this is more of a kernel question ...May 23 06:44
ReverseGTRtrue, but it can also play a roll in the APIMay 23 06:45
ReverseGTRbut yea its mainly a quality the kernel must possessMay 23 06:45
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tomsdaleI think in regards to memory management linux is very mature. I think that's one of the reasons linux is very stable as far as the kernel goes. hw drivers and X is another story.May 23 06:47
tomsdalewell, hw drivers is kernel as well but then your computer usually just resets and all is lost.May 23 06:49
tomsdaleI saw an interesting book on linux kernel memory management on amazon but I didn't quite feel up for that much off kernel deepness :-)May 23 06:50
tomsdaleFrom what I can tell - please correct me If I'm wrong. Apple took a underlying BSD OS and just wrote a graphic library on topMay 23 06:52
tomsdaleI think Xorg must have done a better job at least with regards to stability since I never had an application crash my whole system. On Mac that happens. My gf can tell a story.May 23 06:54
ReverseGTRtomsdale, yep, its the Mach kernel and the name of their APIs is Cocoa and AquaMay 23 06:54
ReverseGTRCocoa handles all 2D and language handlers while Aqua is mostly for OpenGL implementationMay 23 06:55
ReverseGTRAqua also seems to define certain codecs such as AAC, MPEG4 and H.264May 23 06:58
tomsdaleHow does Aqua compare to the linux equivalent which is what - compiz?May 23 06:58
tomsdalekwinMay 23 06:58
ReverseGTRI would say Aqua is like Compiz when it comes to handling desktop affects, but it does more tooMay 23 06:59
ReverseGTRit seems that Aqua is also responsible for handling all the menus and tabs which is why OSX has a uniform lookMay 23 07:00
tomsdaleFrom what I can tell regarding desktop effects I can reproduce most of the mac OSx effects on Linux and more but it might be less efficient than aqua.May 23 07:01
ReverseGTRtomsdale, probably, Aqua and Cocoa create an immense API that is probably more integral to OSX than the kernel itselfMay 23 07:02
tomsdaleI think on linux a lot of uniformity is lost because you have qt and gtk.May 23 07:02
oiaohmdri2 is required to improve the video handing of Linux.May 23 07:03
oiaohmqt exists on many platforms.May 23 07:03
oiaohmLack of shared theming on Linux breaks the uniformity.May 23 07:03
tomsdaleit's a deal breaker for many people.May 23 07:04
tomsdaleespecially on KDE.May 23 07:04
oiaohmhttp://code.google.com/p/gtk-qt-engine/May 23 07:04
oiaohmgtk applications can be theme merged with qtMay 23 07:04
oiaohmOther way does not work.May 23 07:04
oiaohmFor a long time gtk-qt engine had legal problems.May 23 07:05
oiaohmBecause gtk and qt were different licences but that is no more these days.May 23 07:06
tomsdaleand access to files seems to be buffered somehow as well at least on KDE. opening a video file over a samba first copies it into a temporary directory which is done much more nicly on mac.May 23 07:06
tomsdales/samba/samba share/May 23 07:07
tomsdaleoiaohm: what is dri2?May 23 07:07
oiaohmdirect rendering interface 2 version.May 23 07:07
tomsdaledoes it come by default with Xorg?May 23 07:08
oiaohmXorg most distributions are using direct rendering interface 1 version.May 23 07:08
oiaohmWhat is quite old.May 23 07:08
oiaohmdri1 only supports stablely like 1 opengl application at a time.May 23 07:08
oiaohmSo stuff like compiz only works due to hacking over dri1 defects.May 23 07:09
tomsdalei have jaunty with Xorg 1.6  afaik.May 23 07:10
oiaohmDrivers for dri2 are no fully out yet either.May 23 07:11
oiaohmYou do have early intel dri2 drivers with jaunty.May 23 07:11
tomsdaleIn my experience jaunty was a step back in graphics performance even with a NVidia card. My 8.04 Server behaves much more responsible with CPU power with compiz enabled compared to kwin on jaunty.May 23 07:12
oiaohmSide effect of dri2 arch being implemented dri1 mode has taken a speed hit.May 23 07:13
oiaohmNvidia is dri1 with hacks.May 23 07:14
oiaohmSome of Nvidias old ways of hooking in where removed in Xorg 1.6.May 23 07:14
oiaohmYou are using something midd transition from one system to another tomsdaleMay 23 07:15
tomsdaleWell, you have to say though - being on linux I have the impression you always look forward to the next release:-)May 23 07:15
tomsdaleyes - that's my impression actually. I still recommend and install 8.10 for my friends.May 23 07:16
tomsdaleoiaohm: which OS are you using?May 23 07:17
oiaohmDebian at moment.May 23 07:18
oiaohmI do support for the wine project from time to time.   Video card problems drive us up the wall there.May 23 07:18
oiaohmSo you kinda know that is going on.May 23 07:19
tomsdaleI recommend ubuntu to my friends simply because of the fact that if you type in "ubuntu myProblem" you have the highest hitrate :-)May 23 07:19
oiaohmGLX pre 1999 for opengl.   DRI1 with design based off GLX 1999  and DRI2 most likely fully deployed for 2009 and its a full redesign.   So not what you call fast change rateMay 23 07:20
tomsdaleI guess that'S the achilles Verso of Wine - I suppose emulating the Windows API for graphical applications is quite hard.May 23 07:20
oiaohmUbuntu is also the one I find with the most incompetent instructions.May 23 07:21
oiaohmUbuntu fails to merge upstream correctly.May 23 07:22
tomsdaleyou might have a point there - Hey I found this wordpress and my friend just installed ubuntu on my computer - let's blog :-)May 23 07:22
oiaohmMost dangrous place for instructions in the Ubuntu wiki and forums.May 23 07:22
tomsdalestill ubuntu seems to get the marketing right. The Debian website aims at developers and technically minded people.May 23 07:23
oiaohmThey copy off of other wikis so information ends up out of date and incorrect.May 23 07:23
oiaohmUbuntu also destoryed my two favorate windows managers.May 23 07:23
oiaohmxfce and kde.May 23 07:23
oiaohmI don't use them to look like gnome.May 23 07:24
tomsdalehow is that ubuntus fault?May 23 07:24
oiaohmUbuntu versions of them.May 23 07:25
oiaohmThey have altered the layout and themes to match Gnome.May 23 07:25
tomsdalekubuntu jaunty came with the default kde theme afaict. No alterations there.May 23 07:25
ReverseGTRI think I am going to stick with Fedora in the future because I am just too comphy using yum reposMay 23 07:26
tomsdaleinstallled xubuntu on a really old PC: if you use firefox as your main browser then please just integrate it right into the OS - I myself could open a bloddy picture.May 23 07:26
oiaohmOk so they have returned to santity with kubuntu.May 23 07:27
tomsdaletbh it looked more like lazyness to me.May 23 07:28
ushimitsudokiI use xfce in ubuntu. Works fine for meMay 23 07:29
tomsdaleReverseGTR: Fedora seems too much cutting edge for me.May 23 07:29
tomsdaleushimitsudoki: I installed it in French - It ended up being half french half english since some parts of the system configuration were not tranlated, and that was 8.10 3 month ago.May 23 07:30
oiaohmhttp://www.xfce.org/images/about/screenshots/4.4-4.png  << Old style xfce ushimitsudokiMay 23 07:30
ushimitsudokioiaohm: that's not too far from what I have going onMay 23 07:31
ReverseGTRtomsdale, not if you decide to just stay a distro behind, sure some people say you must keep up to date to ensure the latest features in compatibility and being able to install the latest apps without dependancy issues. But ever since Fedora 5 most features a modern PC needs have been coveredMay 23 07:31
ReverseGTRtomsdale, jit ust comes down to figuring out which distro best suites your hardware's specsMay 23 07:32
ushimitsudokiWhen it comes to DE's, you have basically 3 choices (unless you really like to tinker): Gnome, KDE, XFCE.May 23 07:32
ushimitsudokiNot interested in the mono shit in gnome, so that's outMay 23 07:32
ushimitsudokiI haven't worked up the nerve to try KDE4.2 after the mess of the earlier 4.x releasesMay 23 07:33
ushimitsudokiSo that pretty much leaves XFCEMay 23 07:33
ReverseGTRushimitsudoki, I'm right now using E17May 23 07:33
ushimitsudokiE17 is nice, but still a bit too need of hands-on care - at least last time I tried. My friend is a bit Enlightenment fan, so I watch his desktop closelyMay 23 07:34
tomsdaleOnly thing that saves me at the moment is a 2.53 GHz Dual core. KDE seems a great sucker on CPU power sometimesMay 23 07:34
ushimitsudokiI like what E17 promises, I hope it continues to improveMay 23 07:34
oiaohmDo you have right click on desktop gives you list of applications to run ushimitsudoki.May 23 07:35
ReverseGTRushimitsudoki, it does at times but you can easily restart the GUI through a terminal once anything goes wrong, and it usually only does if you are pushing the memory to the limit. The only really noticable achilies heal of E17 is how long it takes certain apps to load upMay 23 07:35
oiaohmSo you don't have to go back to the start button.May 23 07:36
ushimitsudokioiaohm: mid-click gives running apps, rightclick gives a menuMay 23 07:36
ReverseGTRoiaohm, yep you can set it that wayMay 23 07:36
ReverseGTRoiaohm, which comes in mighty handy considering the menu bar crashed onceMay 23 07:36
oiaohmLast time I tried xubuntu default I had to change that back.May 23 07:37
ushimitsudokiReverseGTR: I did give it a spin several months ago. I *just* got done updating to the new release of ubuntu today, so I might try some new things soonMay 23 07:37
ushimitsudokiXFCE has superior multi-monitor support, too - which is an important point for my desktopMay 23 07:38
tomsdaleI do like the way KDE is going with their Desktop atm - I'm just sincerely hoping for some performance improvements.May 23 07:38
oiaohmKDE 4.x is design for DRI2.May 23 07:39
oiaohmRunning on DRI1 does hurt its performance.May 23 07:39
tomsdalerunning an almost idle session on 15% is just not acceptable.May 23 07:40
oiaohmKde 3.5 for me runs under 1%May 23 07:42
tomsdalewell, we'll see in 6 month if things improove. I do like what I see but at a certain cost.May 23 07:42
oiaohmalso with ubuntu always be aware of indexing.May 23 07:43
tomsdaleyeah - maybe it's time for a KDE distro to look somewhere else.May 23 07:45
tomsdalemaybe Mandriva.May 23 07:45
oiaohmkde is highly customisable.May 23 07:47
oiaohmThere are many things that can increase load.May 23 07:47
tomsdalemaybe it'S too customizable - my X process has 350MB reserved Memory.May 23 07:48
oiaohmDRI 1 kinda expected.May 23 07:49
oiaohmWhen I explain this you are really going to wonder what the design of DRI 1 was on.May 23 07:49
tomsdaleI gotta read into this tomorrow I think - sounds like something I'd like to know more.May 23 07:49
oiaohmX11 servers under DRI 1 has no way to know what what is stored in the video card.May 23 07:50
oiaohmSo has to cache everything that would be stored in the video card just in case something else replaces it.May 23 07:50
oiaohmSay hello to huge convertional memory usage.May 23 07:50
tomsdalefollowed by quassel - 264MB Reserved and 734 VIRT. It's a heavy discussion going on here guys :-)May 23 07:50
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_Goblingood morning all....bank holiday weekend, Im off work...what could be better.May 23 07:51
oiaohmIRC client really don't have justificationMay 23 07:52
tomsdaleNot really a problem these days with loads of RAM available - but sounds like quite a bad architecture.May 23 07:52
tomsdaleoiaohm: you mean as an application?May 23 07:53
oiaohmI only have 35 meg reserved running konversation.May 23 07:54
oiaohmAnd konversation I class as heavy.May 23 07:54
tomsdalequassel does seem to log back to the dawn of the world though. I just don't get why it keeps it in memory.May 23 07:55
tomsdalebut looks more like a memory leak.May 23 07:55
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the_mad_hatterMoon OS - Enlightenment version - light, fast, great looking.May 23 07:58
the_mad_hatterhttp://www.moonos.co.cc/May 23 07:59
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the_mad_hatterAlso Dream Linux - XFCE based. Nice distro.May 23 08:00
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, whoa that looks like the ideal distro for a well speced laptopMay 23 08:00
the_mad_hatterI like Moon OS. Took it off because of left track button, but since I found an optical mouse will work on a couch (hell, I can use the Beagle for a mouse pad)May 23 08:02
the_mad_hatterI'm going back.May 23 08:02
DaemonFCyayMay 23 08:02
DaemonFCcheeseball zombie scaresMay 23 08:02
DaemonFC:PMay 23 08:02
tomsdaleok - time to hit the sheets, won't be installing any new distros tonight anymore :-) ... gn8May 23 08:02
DaemonFCthat game suckedMay 23 08:02
DaemonFCI hit a game glitchMay 23 08:02
ReverseGTRtomsdale, nightMay 23 08:03
the_mad_hatterYeah, it's 3:00 AM and I got yardwork tomorrow :(May 23 08:03
the_mad_hatternight allMay 23 08:03
ReverseGTRthe_mad_hatter, iight night tooMay 23 08:03
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_GoblinNever tried Dream Linux...may give it a goMay 23 08:07
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schestowitzHeyMay 23 08:44
schestowitzhttp://www.itwire.com/content/view/25191/1054/ "Disregarding Apple's opinion that current netbooks are "junky" and the company's willingness to sue Mac clone makers, a Russian website is offering a MiniBook with Mac OS X running on an Asus Eee PC."May 23 08:45
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schestowitzLinux.com: Just Another News Site? < http://www.itnewstoday.com/?p=382 >May 23 08:52
schestowitzLibrary Of Congress's Depression Photos Debut On Flickr http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/05/22/library-of-congresss-depression-photos-debut-on-flickr-0May 23 08:53
schestowitz Fedora 11 Common Bugs page < http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/05/22/fedora-11-common-bugs-page/ >May 23 09:07
schestowitzIt's about time: Red Hat Sues Switzerland Over Microsoft Monopoly < http://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/red-hat-sues-switzerland-over-microsoft-monopoly-965 >May 23 09:12
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trmancohttp://digg.com/d1rsUrMay 23 09:12
trmancohehMay 23 09:12
trmancolook at thisMay 23 09:12
trmanco7 is famousMay 23 09:13
schestowitzOKMay 23 09:13
trmanco7 guy on colaMay 23 09:13
schestowitzHIP HIP HOORAY!! May 23 09:13
schestowitzHIP HIP HOORAY!! May 23 09:13
schestowitzHIP HIP HOORAY!! May 23 09:13
schestowitz:-)May 23 09:13
schestowitzYou lost me at the juvenile "Microshaft," "PISTA," and "OSen." May 23 09:14
trmancololMay 23 09:14
trmancoPISTAMay 23 09:14
schestowitzYeah.May 23 09:16
schestowitz& is OKMay 23 09:16
schestowitzHis heart is at the right place.May 23 09:16
schestowitzOops /&/7/May 23 09:16
schestowitzThe “plasma leak” story… < http://darktears.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/the-plasma-leak-story/ >May 23 09:17
*schestowitz will post to COLA in a momentMay 23 09:17
schestowitzBlech. I'm tired from this man's opinions: How we won the open source battle < http://www.infoworld.com/d/open-source/how-we-won-open-source-battle-449 >May 23 09:22
schestowitzSeveral vulnerabilities closed in Pidgin 2.5.6 < http://www.h-online.com/open/Several-vulnerabilities-closed-in-Pidgin-2-5-6--/news/113350 >May 23 09:23
schestowitzGNOME.org revamp < http://www.silwenae.org/blog/?p=1135 >May 23 09:24
trmancoSoftware installation in Linux is difficult: http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntucat/software-installation-in-linux-is-difficult/May 23 09:24
schestowitzhttp://jeremy.linuxquestions.org/2009/05/21/oracle-sun-acquisition-musings/ "I think it’s clear that this acquisition will mean some significant changes for the future path of MySQL. The fact that a lot of upcoming MySQL-related innovation may come from outside the company, and from places like the Open Database Alliance should at least ensure that MySQL remains viable from a technology standpoint."May 23 09:25
schestowitztrmanco: LOLMay 23 09:26
trmanco:)May 23 09:26
schestowitzWhat Does Beta Mean To You? < http://www.pcmech.com/article/what-does-beta-mean-to-you/ >May 23 09:30
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schestowitzEx-BBC science man slams corp: 'Evangelical, shallow and sparse'' http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/bbc_whitehouse_climate/May 23 09:35
schestowitzBoston dorm computer raid ruled illegal http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/05/22/computer_seizure_ruled_illegal/May 23 09:37
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goblinMicrosoft wont attend EU anti trust date?  Has Microsoft lost its bottle with "soft" being the operative word?May 23 10:47
schestowitzDelay tacticsMay 23 10:48
schestowitzStill the same law-'unabiding' drekMay 23 10:48
schestowitzit's a good thing that Microsoft -- like other rogue companies -- is on its way out, fastMay 23 10:48
oiaohmgoblin: EU don't respond to Delaying tacticsMay 23 10:49
oiaohmThey give you a date you don't take it stiff.May 23 10:49
schestowitzOter challenges will be Google (fog computing), IBM's proprietary, software patents-rich agenda, and the DRM workshop called AppleMay 23 10:49
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goblinyeah its going to be written evidence for MicrosoftMay 23 10:50
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oiaohmMicrosoft asked for a verbal herring as part of EU anti-trust there is no requirement fore a verbal herring.May 23 10:54
schestowitztacone: many articles about earcandy todayMay 23 10:55
schestowitzhttp://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/05/earcandy-is-smart-pulseaudio-volume.htmlMay 23 10:56
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oiaohmhttp://www.osnews.com/story/21547/Microsoft_To_Remove_Windows_7_Starter_Three_App_Limit  HmmMay 23 10:59
oiaohmMS is trying to force netbooks smaller.May 23 10:59
schestowitzSo how will they make money?May 23 11:01
goblinIve seen that rumour.  Andre Da Costa mentioned it...I wonder if that will affect pricing...MS must be worried about how desirable Vista 7 is to the average user.May 23 11:02
schestowitzRemember Red Hat and Canonical saying there is no money in the desktop?May 23 11:02
schestowitzMicrosoft should take noteMay 23 11:02
schestowitzit applies to MS tooMay 23 11:02
goblinI think ideas like Ubuntu One may lead to a return for Linux on the desktopMay 23 11:02
schestowitzProfitability of Office too will be affected, mostly by Fog ComputingMay 23 11:03
goblinIf you look at the sucesses of some distro's donate scheme, I think you have a very generous FOSS community which will support the companies producing the distros.May 23 11:04
goblinin the long runMay 23 11:04
oiaohmMost distributions that last depend on support providing.May 23 11:05
goblinIf Gentoo was a closed source proprietary distro, Id buy it over a Microsoft offering anyday.  I think for me it comes down to which product is fit for purpose for me, the price is irrelevant if the software doesnt functionMay 23 11:06
oiaohmdebian is one of the rare out siders on this.May 23 11:06
goblinAlthough Gentoo is wholly unsuitable for most (IMO)....May 23 11:08
oiaohmNext major battle will be in the small business market.May 23 11:08
oiaohmUnles something changes on time lines.May 23 11:09
oiaohmProper multiseat support is also under way with Linux.May 23 11:17
MinceRhow are you gentlemen !!May 23 11:34
goblinenjoying the bank holiday weekend!May 23 11:34
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_Hicham_Hi All!May 23 11:35
goblinhi!May 23 11:35
schestowitzHeyMay 23 11:38
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_Hicham_schestowitz have just woken up from a long mono dreamMay 23 11:40
_Hicham_in fact, it was a nightmareMay 23 11:40
_Hicham_schestowitz dreamed that all of his servers components got ported to monoMay 23 11:41
schestowitzNo Mono. NomoMay 23 11:41
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oiaohmCould be worse.May 23 11:44
oiaohmI once dreamed that someone ported my server code to geek code.May 23 11:44
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_Hicham_to geek code?May 23 11:52
schestowitzGeeklogMay 23 11:55
schestowitz_Hicham_ will like this video in gnash:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2iCo645eZkMay 23 12:01
_Hicham_I don't use gnashMay 23 12:02
_Hicham_i use adobe flash playerMay 23 12:02
_Hicham_it is the only proprietary piece of code that I haveMay 23 12:03
schestowitzO, use whateva'May 23 12:03
_Hicham_noMay 23 12:04
_Hicham_it is immoralMay 23 12:04
_Hicham_maybe flash will be ported to monoMay 23 12:04
_Hicham_mono is at least open sourceMay 23 12:04
_Hicham_hahahahahahaMay 23 12:05
_Hicham_I have seen some interesting animations in moonlightMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_they work pretty goodMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_no high CPU usage problemMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_Flash is a problem tooMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_it is the same as moonlightMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_it uses a lot of proprietary codecsMay 23 12:06
_Hicham_so what is the fucking difference ?May 23 12:07
_Hicham_I see that moonlight is better than flashMay 23 12:07
MinceRi've seen moonblight play video in the exact same crap way trash doesMay 23 12:08
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_Hicham_personally, I prefer moonlight to flashMay 23 12:10
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taconeoh, finally ear candy has been packagedMay 23 12:13
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_Hicham_what is ear candy?May 23 12:14
MinceRearwaxMay 23 12:14
MinceR;)May 23 12:14
zer0c00l_Hicham_, something sweet to earMay 23 12:15
trmancoMicrosoft cuts IM service to five 'hostile' nations: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/052209-microsoft-cuts-im-service-to.htmlMay 23 12:19
_Hicham_fuck MicrosoftMay 23 12:19
saul_SourceForge eliminated the Most Likely To: "be acquired", "infringe patents", and "be sued" categories for the 2009 Community Choice awards.  http://sourceforge.net/community/cca09/categories/May 23 12:19
MinceRm$ makes it more explicit that they own the USA?May 23 12:20
_Hicham_MS own the computer worldMay 23 12:21
oiaohmLOLMay 23 12:23
oiaohmMS only owns 1 section of it _Hicham_May 23 12:23
oiaohmLinux owns the high end.May 23 12:23
MinceRor perhaps m$ wants to gain the support of usian nationalists by supporting their agendaMay 23 12:24
_Hicham_MS still owns the major partsMay 23 12:25
_Hicham_due to Linux non-locking techniquesMay 23 12:26
_Hicham_basically, package management, and naming conventions are still a problemMay 23 12:26
_Hicham_is package management is to be unified, Linux can progress fasterMay 23 12:27
_Hicham_that way, there will be one repo for the kernelMay 23 12:27
_Hicham_one repo for gnomeMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_one repo for kdeMay 23 12:28
MinceRoh, the old "waaaah, there are too many distros" whineMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_and so onMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_yesMay 23 12:28
schestowitzThis one's good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV4_lVTVa6k&feature=relatedMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_it is an obstable to progressMay 23 12:28
MinceRlet's just do another windows and it will be perfect... oh, waitMay 23 12:28
MinceRno, it's the way progress can be doneMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_no, it is not another windowsMay 23 12:28
_Hicham_it is a collaborative effortMay 23 12:28
MinceRyou can't try every new idea in the same distroMay 23 12:29
schestowitzsaul_: yes, I noticed thatMay 23 12:29
MinceRyou can't experiment with new ways to manage packages if it's mandatory to use the same package managerMay 23 12:29
schestowitzI think I wrote about it in BN, tooMay 23 12:29
schestowitzNO MS sponsorship yetMay 23 12:29
schestowitzMaybe that's whyMay 23 12:29
_Hicham_it is not like that MinceRMay 23 12:29
*schestowitz works on daily linksMay 23 12:30
_Hicham_I am talking about universal stable reposMay 23 12:30
oiaohmI look at cure to too many distributions a different path.May 23 12:30
MinceRyou can't move to a new init replacement if you have to force the whole world to move with youMay 23 12:30
oiaohmMajor road block to running multi distributions on 1 kernel is X11May 23 12:30
_Hicham_noMay 23 12:30
MinceRand i'm talking about having multiple distros with their own repos and package managers if they choose soMay 23 12:30
_Hicham_u can't still have you own launchpadMay 23 12:30
schestowitzI see that Microsoft fights Cuba nowMay 23 12:30
schestowitzI guess that are not happy with the migration to LinuxMay 23 12:31
_Hicham_I am talking about a unified stable distroMay 23 12:31
MinceRschestowitz: right, i forgot about thatMay 23 12:31
oiaohmOnce you can run multi distributions side by side you can start merging them.May 23 12:31
_Hicham_that is vanillaMay 23 12:31
schestowitzNot a SINGLE country other than the US has a problem  with CubaMay 23 12:31
MinceRthat explains the m$n issueMay 23 12:31
schestowitz:-)May 23 12:31
oiaohmSo we can have expanding and reducing distributions numbers.May 23 12:31
_Hicham_upstream projects won't have a problem thenMay 23 12:31
MinceRbut i suspect all they'll succeed at doing is making them migrate to jabber or somethingMay 23 12:31
MinceR_Hicham_: and who will be that stable distro?May 23 12:32
schestowitz"Microsoft wouldn't comment on why it chose to shut down the service at this time, or how long people in those countries had been able to access Windows Live Messenger. Microsoft said it does not currently do business with those countries. "May 23 12:32
_Hicham_a collaborative effortMay 23 12:32
schestowitzThose countries should not be doing business with Microsoft, eitherMay 23 12:32
MinceRbut _whose_ collaborative effort?May 23 12:32
oiaohmAfter X11 is able to run multable.   Then X11 desktops can expand to support cleanly running applications from multiable distributions.May 23 12:32
_Hicham_that is synced 100% with upstream projectsMay 23 12:32
MinceRappoint debian and fedora fans will ignore your ideaMay 23 12:32
schestowitzJabber=Fiasco SystemsMay 23 12:32
MinceRappoint fedora and debian fans will ignore youMay 23 12:32
oiaohmMy idea does not depend on them being willing MinceRMay 23 12:33
_Hicham_noMay 23 12:33
MinceRschestowitz: they could still run their own serversMay 23 12:33
_Hicham_Fedora and Debian are for different segmentsMay 23 12:33
_Hicham_Fedora is a launchpad for new techsMay 23 12:33
oiaohmOnce you can run multiable distributins without issues a shared distribution can be made.May 23 12:33
MinceRoiaohm: what's the X11 issue?May 23 12:33
oiaohmYou cannot run under dri1 two X11 servers with 3d accleration.May 23 12:34
oiaohmAnd you cannot mange them to be displayed on 1 screen.May 23 12:34
MinceRoh you meant two distros at the same time?May 23 12:34
oiaohmYes.May 23 12:34
MinceRwith containers or virtualization?May 23 12:34
oiaohmwith containersMay 23 12:34
MinceRicMay 23 12:34
oiaohm1 Linux kernelMay 23 12:35
MinceRdoes that support running 2 inits?May 23 12:35
oiaohmYep.May 23 12:35
oiaohmSome minor disabling of double init hardware.May 23 12:35
oiaohmBut as cgroup tech expands that will not be required.May 23 12:36
oiaohmIts allready done with openvz and it works as long as you don't want a X11 server runing 3d applications.May 23 12:37
schestowitzUS education being crippled voluntarily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40Q8p3GqPqQ&NR=1May 23 12:38
MinceRif you can manage switching between them, they should workMay 23 12:39
MinceR(virtual console switching)May 23 12:40
oiaohmIt all works at moment as long as you don't mind interface with them threw vnc.May 23 12:40
oiaohmAnd not having opengl.May 23 12:40
oiaohmwayland allows X11 servers to be treated as windows.May 23 12:41
oiaohmYou could using a few other basically cut and paste the interface into 1.May 23 12:42
MinceRswitching between 2 x servers using opengl seems to work for meMay 23 12:42
MinceR(as it should, since the x server is supposed to let go of the GPU if i switch away to another console)May 23 12:43
MinceRand i doubt my crappy binary nvidia driver supports dri2 :>May 23 12:43
oiaohmNvidia has a few hacks to dri1 that let it work most of the time.May 23 12:43
oiaohmNotice the word most.May 23 12:44
oiaohmIf you switch between the servers enough it will snap.May 23 12:44
MinceR:)May 23 12:44
MinceRhm, i wonder if windows can let go of the GPU tooMay 23 12:44
oiaohmIts also allowing secuirty between containers.May 23 12:45
oiaohmYou don't want something inside a container taking down everything.May 23 12:45
_Hicham_dri2 just rocksMay 23 12:45
oiaohmgem ie kernel mode memory management in the dri2 system makes it possiable to run 2 X11 servers safely.May 23 12:46
oiaohmWith KMS you can disconnect them from the real display without the X11 server knowing.May 23 12:46
oiaohmMinceR: its letting go of the videocard and reconneting that has made vt switching so risky.May 23 12:47
MinceRwhy?May 23 12:48
MinceRit should be possible to reinitializeMay 23 12:48
oiaohmScrew the disconnect up you level the video card sometimes in a state it don't reinitialize correctly withotu powering the card off.May 23 12:48
MinceRicMay 23 12:49
MinceRcan you tell the bus to power it off and on again?May 23 12:49
oiaohmYes powering a card on and off for each vt switch would kill it quicky.May 23 12:49
MinceRoh.May 23 12:49
oiaohmYes stuck between the rock and really hard place.May 23 12:49
MinceRalso, it would be nice to have a key combination that the kernel will handle even if x is handling the keyboardMay 23 12:50
oiaohmThat already exists.May 23 12:50
oiaohmIt called SAK.May 23 12:50
*MinceR reads up on itMay 23 12:51
oiaohmhttp://kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/marcelo/linux-2.4/Documentation/SAK.txtMay 23 12:51
MinceRthxMay 23 12:51
oiaohmKMS should also keep vt switching working no matter what.May 23 12:51
oiaohmBasically all uncontrolled interfacing with video card is being removed.May 23 12:52
oiaohmSo stacks of problems people complain about will disappear.May 23 12:52
MinceRare there any distros configured to have SAK work properly by default?May 23 12:52
oiaohmMinceR: Not 1.May 23 12:53
oiaohmX11 server disabled cntrl-alt-backspace because SAK is more dependable.May 23 12:53
oiaohmDistributions never though for one min that cntrl-alt-backspace was duplicated functionallity.May 23 12:53
oiaohmWhy do we need 1 way to kill a X11 sever that is intermitent when the Linux kernel has something that will do the same thing that is more dependable.May 23 12:54
oiaohmThere was no logic to keeping cntrl-alt-backspace.May 23 12:55
_Hicham_there is a logic still oiaohmMay 23 12:55
schestowitzLoads of good Linux news (daily lump): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/23/more-android-phones/May 23 12:56
oiaohmHow _Hicham_May 23 12:56
_Hicham_system hang-upsMay 23 12:56
oiaohmAssign ctrl-alt-backspace to SAK and it works unless the kernel is crashed.May 23 12:56
MinceRi see no problem with having one more way to do itMay 23 12:56
MinceRnobody else uses ctrl-alt-pause anywayMay 23 12:56
oiaohmCompared to X11 server version that if X11 server keyboard processing locked up it don't work.May 23 12:57
oiaohmEnd result is the same.May 23 12:57
oiaohmAll applications on console terminated.May 23 12:57
_Hicham_well, it is useful for meMay 23 12:58
_Hicham_it is better than a complete rebootMay 23 12:58
oiaohmSAK does not cause a compete reboot.May 23 12:59
oiaohmBasically it does the same thing as ctrl-alt-backspace but works more often.May 23 13:00
oiaohmInstead of X11 server killing itself.   The Linux kernel does it.May 23 13:00
oiaohmSAK is about preventing fake login screensMay 23 13:00
oiaohmSo killing the complete system would kinda be a disadvantage.May 23 13:01
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjkyMg  Also in that picture with 3 different forms of X11 server running what one will die to a ctrl-alt-backspace.May 23 13:02
oiaohmSAK will get them all.May 23 13:03
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oiaohmThere is even work to bring back multi terminal support working correctly.  Ie start X11 server assign it to a video card or screen start another.   No double stacking of X11 server to do it.May 23 13:10
schestowitzXandros Thinks Linspire Customers Use Microsoft Windows < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/23/xandros-assumes-windows/ >May 23 13:18
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_Hicham_finally, I have yahoo pop3 accessMay 23 13:22
_Hicham_fucking yahoo strategyMay 23 13:22
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taconethanks for linking ear candy schestowitz . much appreciatedMay 23 13:36
taconeit's a cool program.May 23 13:36
taconehttp://www.eweekeurope.co.uk/news/red-hat-sues-switzerland-over-microsoft-monopoly-965May 23 13:36
oiaohmThat kinda goes against redhat statement its not interested in the desktop does it.May 23 13:39
MinceRi thought they acquired qumranet because they decided they're interested in the desktop after all.May 23 13:40
taconethey didn't see a market for itMay 23 13:41
taconethat doesn't prevent them to try create a market for it :)May 23 13:41
oiaohmExactly.May 23 13:41
oiaohmMost MS people take it wrong.  Redhat may have retreated does not mean they have quit on the idea.May 23 13:41
Balrog_schestowitz: is BN being DDOSed again?May 23 13:49
Balrog_not working too well :/May 23 13:49
taconenice xandros logo :)May 23 13:54
oiaohmMost likely working again Balrog_May 23 13:54
oiaohmBN appears to have picked up a glitch in the last move.May 23 13:54
oiaohmSo far not sure what it is.May 23 13:55
MinceR(offtopic) (animated) http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/3874/13182274655.gifMay 23 14:09
_Hicham_RedHat is interested in desktop marketMay 23 14:19
_Hicham_their claim is legitimateMay 23 14:20
oiaohmI expect to see more of this as the war for the desktop hots upMay 23 14:21
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_Hicham_Desktop is vital for Linux vendorsMay 23 14:21
_Hicham_it is a way to spread their techsMay 23 14:22
_Hicham_it is not like MS way of fucking peopleMay 23 14:22
_Hicham_and spying on themMay 23 14:23
_Hicham_especially that the users do not have access to Windows Source CodeMay 23 14:23
_Hicham_and some of its APIs are still hiddenMay 23 14:23
_Hicham_so it is neither developer friendly or user friendlyMay 23 14:23
_Hicham_they fuck all the peopleMay 23 14:23
oiaohmEverything is working out great.May 23 14:24
_Hicham_everything what?May 23 14:31
_Hicham_what is working out great?May 23 14:33
oiaohmFor Linux.May 23 14:39
oiaohmAll the pieces are starting to drop into place.May 23 14:39
_Hicham_yeahMay 23 14:40
_Hicham_Linux have got trouble to get into DesktopMay 23 14:41
_Hicham_but Mandrake was the first user friendly DistroMay 23 14:41
_Hicham_and Linux Distros should be that wayMay 23 14:42
oiaohmMore lack of interest in desktop.May 23 14:42
_Hicham_because desktop is not profitable for LinuxMay 23 14:42
oiaohmMandrake focused on making it look good.May 23 14:42
_Hicham_but now, things are changingMay 23 14:42
schestowitzUSPTO Leaves People Dead. Is the Intellectual Monopoly Doctrine Practically Dead Too? < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/23/intellectual-monopoly-doctrine-kills/ > I used a photo of _Hicham_'s girlfriend.May 23 14:42
oiaohmYou cannot bulid a house on poor foundations.May 23 14:42
oiaohmX11 foundations are getting sorted out.May 23 14:43
_Hicham_Mandrake did a great jobMay 23 14:43
oiaohmIt will still leave the mess of audio.May 23 14:43
_Hicham_drakconf is still a leader with YaST in ease of configurationMay 23 14:43
schestowitzBalrog_: I see no sign of DDOSMay 23 14:44
oiaohmhttp://www.freesoftwarepact.eu/  Interesting.May 23 14:44
oiaohmMore and more groups are moving into the offensive.May 23 14:44
schestowitzI was away for an hour thoughMay 23 14:44
_Hicham_Firefox start to behave wild in BNMay 23 14:44
schestowitzFire nearbyMay 23 14:44
schestowitz_Hicham_: how wild?May 23 14:45
_Hicham_the CPU usage go highMay 23 14:45
schestowitzWhat are the issues..May 23 14:45
schestowitzOhMay 23 14:45
schestowitzWhy might this be?May 23 14:45
_Hicham_with basic operationsMay 23 14:45
schestowitzSame layoutMay 23 14:45
_Hicham_scrollingMay 23 14:45
_Hicham_selecting textMay 23 14:45
schestowitzSeems to be a PC-side thingMay 23 14:45
_Hicham_it might be a javascript issueMay 23 14:45
schestowitzIt uses just nicetitlesMay 23 14:46
schestowitzNothing changedMay 23 14:46
_Hicham_though i m using the latest tracemonkey JITMay 23 14:46
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_Hicham_present if FF3.5beta5May 23 14:46
schestowitzBalrog_: was it slow?May 23 14:47
oiaohmLOl we sorted out the copyright thing here a long ago.May 23 14:47
schestowitztacone: thank you, not me... I'm just linking to itMay 23 14:47
_Hicham_thing problem was not present with FF3.0.10May 23 14:47
oiaohmCopyright here is automatic no need to register.May 23 14:47
schestowitz_Hicham_: maybe the Ogg thing?May 23 14:47
oiaohmOnly thing that takes paper work is transfering it.May 23 14:47
schestowitz_Hicham_: I'd need to test it by JuneMay 23 14:48
schestowitzJuly is FF release, right?May 23 14:48
schestowitzThey delayed a littleMay 23 14:48
_Hicham_I think I am gonna file a bug report to MozillaMay 23 14:48
_Hicham_Also maybe the debug info is causing thisMay 23 14:48
_Hicham_Fedora is shipping Firefox with debug-infoMay 23 14:49
taconelol, okMay 23 14:50
schestowitzHmmmm. DDOS again?May 23 14:50
_Hicham_tacone the maffioso, how are u doing?May 23 14:50
schestowitzNot sureMay 23 14:50
_Hicham_BN seems very loadedMay 23 14:51
tacone_Hicham_: i'm doing a shameless self-glorification post that will be out tomorrowMay 23 14:51
taconeschestowitz: grab yourself a good statistic softwareMay 23 14:51
schestowitzYes, DDOSMay 23 14:51
taconedo you can now better where does the visits come fromMay 23 14:52
schestowitzBuggerMay 23 14:52
_Hicham_not necessarily DDOSMay 23 14:54
_Hicham_pipelining can cause symptoms similar to ddosMay 23 14:54
_Hicham_a lot of firefox users use pipeliningMay 23 14:54
schestowitzBoycottNovell is again under DDOS (been 1 or 2 days since the last time)May 23 14:54
schestowitz_Hicham_: no, I see server load and activityMay 23 14:55
taconeit's w/eMay 23 14:55
taconethey have more spare timeMay 23 14:55
oiaohmO well its war.May 23 14:55
_Hicham_maybe useful : http://wiki.untangle.com/index.php/Attack_BlockerMay 23 14:56
_Hicham_BN is down againMay 23 14:56
_Hicham_you really need a proper solution schestowitzMay 23 14:57
schestowitztacone: if only it worked as a jokeMay 23 14:57
_Hicham_Error establishing a database connectionMay 23 14:57
schestowitzI know, I knowMay 23 14:57
schestowitzThe police are being wankersMay 23 14:57
_Hicham_why not try untangleMay 23 14:58
schestowitzWho to turn to? FBI?May 23 14:58
_Hicham_it seems to be a decent solutionMay 23 14:58
_Hicham_why not?May 23 14:58
_Hicham_or do u have sthg against untangle?May 23 14:58
schestowitzIt's not free, but maybe tessier has a copyMay 23 14:58
_Hicham_it is freeMay 23 14:59
_Hicham_under GPLMay 23 14:59
_Hicham_http://www.untangle.com/Open-Source-PackageMay 23 15:00
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_Hicham_it is 450MBMay 23 15:00
_Hicham_will take about 5 hours with my slow connectionMay 23 15:00
mtnd3wGoodmorning...May 23 15:01
schestowitz_Hicham_: how can it be so big?May 23 15:02
_Hicham_it include a lot of appsMay 23 15:02
_Hicham_plus a basic OSMay 23 15:02
_Hicham_a lot of modules i meanMay 23 15:02
_Hicham_I think it is meant to be run on a separate machineMay 23 15:03
_Hicham_do u have a spare machine?May 23 15:03
schestowitzI think notMay 23 15:04
_Hicham_otherwise, run it in KVMMay 23 15:04
_Hicham_so that the virtual machine will do the trick of protectionMay 23 15:04
schestowitzIt's in xenMay 23 15:04
_Hicham_that is when virtualization comesMay 23 15:04
_Hicham_create an image with whatever virtualization tech u wantMay 23 15:05
_Hicham_but I think KVM is fasterMay 23 15:05
_Hicham_what matters is that u get some protectionMay 23 15:06
_Hicham_u can't keep playing Tom & Jerry with those bastardsMay 23 15:06
_Hicham_or that u enjoy that?May 23 15:07
schestowitzBut the solution is to send the police out, I thinkMay 23 15:07
schestowitzTo permanently defeat DDOS is probably not simpleMay 23 15:08
_Hicham_well it isMay 23 15:08
_Hicham_this solutions monitors sources of packetsMay 23 15:09
_Hicham_so when a source reaches certain level of sending, it is blockedMay 23 15:09
_Hicham_I am not an expert in that field, but I see this as a solutionMay 23 15:09
_Hicham_police won't do anythingMay 23 15:10
_Hicham_otherwise, this won't finishMay 23 15:12
_Hicham_u have the choiceMay 23 15:12
_Hicham_I talked to tessier about that, but he plain ignored meMay 23 15:12
oiaohmddos attacks only real option is out last.May 23 15:15
oiaohmOr trick them.May 23 15:15
_Hicham_oiaohm : what do u propose?May 23 15:17
oiaohmI am explain to schestowitz some methods.May 23 15:18
schestowitz<_Hicham_> #boycottnovell-socialMay 23 15:19
taconeoffline time. autoglorification done ! good bye !May 23 15:24
MinceRo/May 23 15:26
schestowitzmtnd3w: are you there?May 23 15:36
*schestowitz has kicked mtnd3w from #boycottnovell (schestowitz)May 23 15:37
schestowitz<oiaohm> What we are looking for in th attackers sometimes make the mistake of using there own machine.   Matching source ip of an attacking machine and a machine checking if the site is up.May 23 15:37
schestowitz<oiaohm> If they make that mistake we have them.  I have pm this becuase there was a person in social I could not id.May 23 15:37
schestowitz<oiaohm> Other thing attackers will sometimes come to watch the chaos.May 23 15:37
schestowitz<oiaohm> That is why I am being very careful with people I don't know.May 23 15:37
schestowitz<schestowitz> Yes, I knowMay 23 15:37
schestowitz<schestowitz> I have no opMay 23 15:37
schestowitzI was suspicious of him all alongMay 23 15:37
schestowitzNo nameMay 23 15:37
schestowitzWas here a few days ago tooMay 23 15:37
oiaohmsquid@cpe-74-65-216-135.nyc.res.rr.com (squid) redircting through proxy as well.May 23 15:38
schestowitzHaMay 23 15:38
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schestowitzYes, I noticed thatMay 23 15:38
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oiaohmThat is what got my attention his user got flaged here.May 23 15:39
schestowitzmib_l1qrm7: hiMay 23 15:40
_Hicham_no more tolerance schestowitzMay 23 15:42
schestowitzDifferent IPMay 23 15:42
_Hicham_anyone suspicious->banMay 23 15:42
oiaohmNo _Hicham_ this is open channel.May 23 15:42
schestowitzmib_l1qrm7: Are you there?May 23 15:42
oiaohmWe need a registed channel non open.May 23 15:42
oiaohmIe invite only to talk about the problems.May 23 15:43
oiaohmThat will close risk of planing leaking.May 23 15:44
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schestowitzGone nowMay 23 15:46
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schestowitzDoes anyone know how to make Chanserv?May 23 15:47
schestowitzReverseGTR seems to be very proficient with RICMay 23 15:47
schestowitz*IRCMay 23 15:47
ReverseGTRschestowitz, um, I always thought it just depended on the channel name on whether a Chanserv option was granted or notMay 23 15:48
schestowitzOh, I see..May 23 15:48
ReverseGTRschestowitz, such as how channels that start with ## usually have no ChanservMay 23 15:48
schestowitzWe need an op in  #boycottnovell-socialMay 23 15:49
ReverseGTRschestowitz, oping 2 channels is too much for one person? :PMay 23 15:49
MinceRsee /chanserv help register  for help on how to register channelsMay 23 15:50
schestowitzIt's already registered I thinkMay 23 15:50
MinceRand /chanserv help flags   on how to set user-specific attributes on registered channelsMay 23 15:50
MinceRyes, it's registeredMay 23 15:51
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oiaohmI am off to bed.May 23 15:57
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_Hicham_schestowitz : you are an op in #boycottnovell-secretMay 23 16:07
schestowitzNopeMay 23 16:08
schestowitzNot there evenMay 23 16:08
schestowitzWe can use the existing channelMay 23 16:08
_Hicham_boycottnovell-social?May 23 16:08
schestowitzYesMay 23 16:09
_Hicham_are u sure u r not an op?May 23 16:15
_Hicham_boycottnovell-social is registered to uMay 23 16:16
_Hicham_so u r an op automaticallyMay 23 16:17
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schestowitz_Hicham_: I have been registrar since MarchMay 23 16:21
schestowitzJust never needed to deal with intrudersMay 23 16:21
DaemonFCI was reading about firewalls and remembered my old ISP a several years ago that pinged me every few hours and if my system didn't respond, then they'd boot me offMay 23 16:29
DaemonFCso I called them and they told me to disable any firewall I might be usingMay 23 16:29
DaemonFCso I asked for their cancellation departmentMay 23 16:29
DaemonFC:PMay 23 16:29
schestowitzHeh.May 23 16:30
schestowitzWell, there should be legislation around OSes tooMay 23 16:30
schestowitzAnd ensuring people secure theirsMay 23 16:30
DaemonFCthis book is talking about Microsoft Usability Research Group, mostly making fun of how much money they throw away designing solutions for idiots that can't use a computerMay 23 16:32
DaemonFCbut turning out to make them harder to useMay 23 16:32
DaemonFCturns out Aero Glass was supposed to be a usability featureMay 23 16:32
DaemonFCbecause lots of people have trouble with the concept of overlapping windowsMay 23 16:33
DaemonFCthen the Personalized Menus in the classic start menu and office that caused about half the items to disappear so nobody could find themMay 23 16:34
DaemonFC:)May 23 16:34
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_Goblinhi allMay 23 16:34
schestowitzHeyMay 23 16:34
_Goblinhow the bank holiday weekend faring?May 23 16:35
schestowitzSo far a little dossyMay 23 16:35
_Goblinlol...yep me too shirked all my duties todayMay 23 16:36
twittera lot DDoSyMay 23 16:37
twittergood morningMay 23 16:37
schestowitz*nods*May 23 16:37
schestowitzGot to love freedom of speech, eh?May 23 16:37
twitteryesMay 23 16:37
twitterit gets a little irritating, wading through the Windows users here who crap on X, GCC, GNU, Ubuntu and just about everything but Windows.May 23 16:38
twitterIRC flooded with crap, BN blown off the internet.May 23 16:40
twittersomeone believes in disrupting free speech because their products can't compete.May 23 16:40
DaemonFCspeaking of full of it........May 23 16:40
DaemonFCnevermindMay 23 16:40
twitterNo need to name anyone, FC, the logs speak for themselves.May 23 16:41
DaemonFCgood morning twitMay 23 16:41
DaemonFC:)May 23 16:41
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schestowitzDaemonFC: Look who runs the show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXajXz4DF1w&feature=relatedMay 23 16:44
DaemonFCyeah, he lostMay 23 16:44
DaemonFCif I remember correctlyMay 23 16:45
DaemonFCactually, he lost before his party's candidate lostMay 23 16:45
DaemonFCthe first round usually gets rid of the fringe nutjobsMay 23 16:45
DaemonFCyes, there's worse than BushMay 23 16:45
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DaemonFCbasically people like Huckabee are unelectable because they're too religiousMay 23 16:47
twitterFBI hit by W32 viruses.  http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090521/ap_on_hi_te/us_feds_computer_virusMay 23 16:47
DaemonFCBush had that perfect mix of born again Christian, stupid, and free money for rich peopleMay 23 16:47
twitterand these are the people who are supposed to chase down botnetsMay 23 16:47
twitterrunning Windows is the root cause of the problem.May 23 16:48
schestowitzScary... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEZITdTFfPY&feature=relatedMay 23 16:48
twitterFBI should know betterMay 23 16:48
DaemonFCno, users are always where it breaks downMay 23 16:48
twitterbut they contribute to the problem instead.May 23 16:48
DaemonFCif you gave Linux to the masses, there'd be viruses and trojansMay 23 16:48
twitterIf the FBI can't secure Windows, no one can.  duh.May 23 16:48
DaemonFCno, the FBI has humans working thereMay 23 16:49
DaemonFCand humans make mistakes and can be trickedMay 23 16:49
twitterhumans without free software might as well be machines.May 23 16:49
DaemonFCthat's what a torjan horse doesMay 23 16:49
DaemonFCreplacing it with Linux still leaves the largest problem intactMay 23 16:49
DaemonFCthe userMay 23 16:49
twitteryour skull is 5cm thick, FC.May 23 16:50
DaemonFCpeople just unbox a computer and start clicking on shitMay 23 16:50
DaemonFCthey don't read the manual, they don't take precautionsMay 23 16:50
DaemonFCthat attitude would make Linux insecure tooMay 23 16:50
twitterlolMay 23 16:50
twitterdid you see the Heart's install screen shots?May 23 16:51
DaemonFCorganized crime, trojan horses, and peopleMay 23 16:51
DaemonFCLinux wouldn't change any of thatMay 23 16:51
twitterwell kept repositories take care of the problems you are talking about.May 23 16:51
DaemonFChaving an overabundance of any particular type of machine with a broad spectrum of usersMay 23 16:51
DaemonFCwill cause troubleMay 23 16:51
twittermaking that the path of least resistance insures people get clean software.May 23 16:51
DaemonFCno they don'tMay 23 16:51
DaemonFCthere's always stuff you can't get in the repositoryMay 23 16:52
DaemonFCand as long as you have to go running software and stuff from whereverMay 23 16:52
DaemonFCthen you can run into thisMay 23 16:52
twitterM$ has been working on that.  Got any examples?May 23 16:52
DaemonFCthere's also the problem of repository tamperingMay 23 16:52
DaemonFClike when those people stole the Fedora signing keyMay 23 16:52
DaemonFCand manipulated their repoMay 23 16:52
twitterso rare, so easily fixedMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCyou can't trust the software just because it came from a certain placeMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCno, they didn't notice it for daysMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCif that was a malicious person, they could have spread a worm to millions of Fedora boxesMay 23 16:53
twitterright, you can trust it because it can be inspected and isMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCand those people, using Linux, would have had their nose honkedMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCand their underwear pulled over their headMay 23 16:53
DaemonFCwith no preventative measures possibleMay 23 16:53
twitterdream onMay 23 16:54
twitterhas not happened and won'tMay 23 16:54
DaemonFCbecause their Fedora machiens would all automaticalyl download the virusMay 23 16:54
DaemonFCand yes it could easily happen just like thatMay 23 16:54
DaemonFCthere's a million ways to infect a Linux systemMay 23 16:54
DaemonFCand nobody has really bothered because Windows and Mac are 99% of the marketMay 23 16:54
schestowitzSarah Palin Family Meeting < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLJS9yoHQms&feature=related >May 23 16:54
DaemonFCmost viruses aren't written for the hell of it, they're written for profit, by organized crimeMay 23 16:55
DaemonFCmostly the Russian MafiaMay 23 16:55
schestowitzLies, lies, lies....May 23 16:55
twitterFC is full of so many of themMay 23 16:56
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DaemonFCwhen Linux has a 90% market and the viruses are all made for it because it's profitable to do that nowMay 23 16:56
DaemonFCget back to meMay 23 16:56
_Goblinok...May 23 16:56
DaemonFCI wouldn't work 300% harder for 1% of the profitMay 23 16:57
DaemonFCwould you?May 23 16:57
_Goblinthe ms faithful have claimed for years linux hasnt gotten past 1.8% so we have nothing to worry about thenMay 23 16:57
DaemonFCwould you work 120 hours for a 20 minute paycheck?May 23 16:57
DaemonFCthat's where Linux is right nowMay 23 16:57
DaemonFCthat's what keeps Linux safeMay 23 16:57
_Goblinif the 20 min paycheck was david beckhams then probably.May 23 16:57
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JyvkjSKMLw&feature=relatedMay 23 16:59
twitterugh http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1714245&art_pos=8May 23 16:59
DaemonFCRon Paul is also a moronMay 23 16:59
DaemonFCbut that's no secretMay 23 16:59
twitterHouston airport has video on the toilets.May 23 16:59
twittergrossMay 23 16:59
_GoblinI think the best thing about Linux not having the penetration of Windows is that we dont have a digital slug as the OS tries to be jack of all trades to millions of users...May 23 17:00
DaemonFCit's funny to pull his string and watch him spout off for the next hourMay 23 17:00
DaemonFCwell, when Linux gets all the Walmart customersMay 23 17:00
twittersomeone needs to frost the glass, so that it works as designed not as big brotherMay 23 17:00
DaemonFCand you start getting trojansMay 23 17:00
DaemonFCand virusesMay 23 17:00
DaemonFCand worms\May 23 17:00
DaemonFCthen yes, it will be a cesspool like WIndowsMay 23 17:00
_Goblinmy dog had worms, nothing to do with Vista though.May 23 17:00
twitteryou spout all night, regardless FCMay 23 17:01
DaemonFCmy point is the malware will follow the OS that gets those kinds of peopleMay 23 17:01
DaemonFCmost of them couldn't even figure out how to put a Linux CD in the trayMay 23 17:01
twitteryes, you have stated your point again and again without evidence beyond your opinion.May 23 17:01
twittercounter examples aboundMay 23 17:01
twitterAppleMay 23 17:02
_Goblintalking of malware, is there any update on the Vista 7 three app limit removal?May 23 17:02
DaemonFCwell, Linux is an insignificant group of opt-in users that went out of their way to get itMay 23 17:02
DaemonFCand probably know what to do with itMay 23 17:02
twitterbanks using GNU/LinuxMay 23 17:02
DaemonFCWindows is just kind of THEREMay 23 17:02
twitteretc,May 23 17:02
DaemonFCWindows is you go buy a PC, it's thereMay 23 17:02
twitterYou would think people would rob banks directly if what you said was true.May 23 17:02
_Goblinnot if the EU get their way (IMO)May 23 17:03
twitterif all OS and users are equal, lolMay 23 17:03
DaemonFCIf you opened up a box and every one of those boxes had UbuntuMay 23 17:03
DaemonFCthere would be viruses for UbuntuMay 23 17:03
DaemonFCcause the know nothings that buy cheap systems would have thatMay 23 17:03
twitterNoes, FC, you said people buy Windows because they want to, not because it's there.May 23 17:03
DaemonFCno, people buy Windows because they don't know they're buying itMay 23 17:04
DaemonFCto them it's not good or bad, it's part of the computerMay 23 17:04
DaemonFCand they got it for freeMay 23 17:04
twitterLike the FBI.May 23 17:04
DaemonFC(in their mind)May 23 17:04
_Goblinrubbish...even the average user was slagging the turkey Vista..they know exactly...May 23 17:04
_Goblinnowadays the average user is far more savvy than beforeMay 23 17:04
twitterI'm sure they have no idea what they were buying.  That's why they are virused out now.May 23 17:04
DaemonFCno, they had a conniption because it wasn't XPMay 23 17:04
_Goblinyou are talking about the 90'sMay 23 17:05
_GoblinmaybeMay 23 17:05
DaemonFCthey had a conniption with XP cause it wasn't 98May 23 17:05
DaemonFCthey had a conniption with 98 cause it wasn't 95.....May 23 17:05
twitterIt was all those idiot users at the FBI.  Blame the user.May 23 17:05
DaemonFCpeople always get over it and continue to use itMay 23 17:05
DaemonFCyou notice a 20 year pattern here?May 23 17:05
*silentivm has quit ("*** [make] Error 2")May 23 17:05
twitterthe pattern is increasing resistance to and rejection of 20 year old software.May 23 17:06
DaemonFCnow Linux has been around for 18 of those yearsMay 23 17:06
DaemonFCit's almost as old as NTMay 23 17:06
_Goblinand still hereMay 23 17:06
twitterand growingMay 23 17:06
_Goblinand more popular than anytime in its historyMay 23 17:06
twitterwhile M$ earnings tankMay 23 17:06
DaemonFCyeah, but it's not making any inroads into user acceptanceMay 23 17:07
DaemonFCit got kicked off the shelves for non-salesMay 23 17:07
twitteryour acceptanceMay 23 17:07
_Goblina bit like vistaMay 23 17:07
twitterhow GNU/Linux go kicked off Walmart shelvesMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCDude, where's all my hardware drivers?May 23 17:08
DaemonFC:PMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCno, it's been kicked out of Staples, Best BuyMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCWalmartMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCCircuit CityMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCFrysMay 23 17:08
DaemonFCCompUSAMay 23 17:08
twitterhttp://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/221041May 23 17:08
_GoblinA little like the Zune compared to the Ipod then?May 23 17:09
DaemonFCLinux is the Zune of operating systems?May 23 17:09
twitterCompUSA is bankruptMay 23 17:09
DaemonFCdid you jsut say that?May 23 17:09
_Goblinits you saying that.May 23 17:09
twitterthat's what happens when you fight your usersMay 23 17:09
twitterM$FT is nextMay 23 17:09
_Goblinno summer picknic for MS employeesMay 23 17:09
_Goblinno bar at redmondMay 23 17:09
_Goblinand a big BSOD for a few thousand employeesMay 23 17:10
_Goblinalls well at Microsoft ?!?!!!May 23 17:10
twitterhow M$ tries to beat GNU/Linux in schools http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/12/2116230May 23 17:10
_GoblinMS has lost the console battleMay 23 17:10
DaemonFCLinux is like something that never hurts MSMay 23 17:10
_GoblinMS has lost the respect in Mobile OSMay 23 17:10
DaemonFCand never goes awayMay 23 17:10
_GoblinMS has lost out to the Ipod.May 23 17:11
DaemonFCit doesn't cost Linux anything to stay standing foreverMay 23 17:11
_GoblinMS has EU issuesMay 23 17:11
twittermore importantly, M$ has lost their reputation.  everyone thinks they suck.May 23 17:11
_Goblinit goes on and on.May 23 17:11
DaemonFCso it will probably be around a long timeMay 23 17:11
twitterbut FCMay 23 17:11
_GoblinOh and dont have the surname "gaywood" or youll be kicked off Xbox live.May 23 17:11
_Goblingreat PR thereMay 23 17:11
_Goblina little bit like the sweaty ballmer prancing around the stageMay 23 17:12
_Goblinor throwing chairsMay 23 17:12
DaemonFCbecause people use it as an insultMay 23 17:12
DaemonFCand they should be kicked offMay 23 17:12
_Goblinand I nearly forgot, the out of court settlement for the Microsoft employee who claimed homophobic attack by other staff membersMay 23 17:13
DaemonFCactually, they shouldn't allow that in a user nameMay 23 17:13
_Goblin? it was his surname.May 23 17:13
DaemonFCbecause there's very few legitimate uses for the word in a user nameMay 23 17:13
DaemonFCother than some bigot taunting peopleMay 23 17:13
_Goblinbut it was his name.May 23 17:13
DaemonFCwell, how the hell do they know that?May 23 17:14
DaemonFCYou know what that looks likeMay 23 17:14
DaemonFCit's not appropriateMay 23 17:14
_Goblinhe proved it (there was an article/interview on it)May 23 17:14
DaemonFCstillMay 23 17:14
DaemonFCbegging for abuseMay 23 17:14
schestowitzDaemonFC: stop trollingMay 23 17:14
_GoblinThe card that billed the account was in the nameMay 23 17:14
DaemonFCwhat? Because Microsoft did the right thing?May 23 17:14
schestowitzYou'll be kicked for it, having made death wishes yesterdayMay 23 17:14
DaemonFCand threw someone off for having a name that was also a slur?May 23 17:14
_Goblinits not a slur if its his surname.May 23 17:15
_Goblinand nobody else believed it was eitherMay 23 17:15
DaemonFCand if they didn't there'd be articles saying that they allowed that filth on their serviceMay 23 17:15
_Goblinits called maturityMay 23 17:15
DaemonFCcatch-22May 23 17:15
_Goblinno there wouldnt as long as it was his real name.May 23 17:15
twitterugh, Slashdot swallowed the US Army Vista story uncritically.  http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/2228245&art_pos=13May 23 17:15
DaemonFCWhat if my last name was NiggermanMay 23 17:16
DaemonFCshould MS allow that too?May 23 17:16
DaemonFCthat's what you're sayingMay 23 17:16
twittercompare to http://slashdot.org/submission/1006103/US-Army-Moves-to-VistaMay 23 17:16
_Goblinwould you ban people from using their name Jesus because it offends christians?May 23 17:16
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twitterI think it's time to kick FCMay 23 17:16
DaemonFCwhy? cause MS won't allow slursMay 23 17:17
DaemonFCand I say good?May 23 17:17
DaemonFCoh, it's OK til someone offends youMay 23 17:17
DaemonFCright?May 23 17:17
twitterI see where you are goingMay 23 17:17
DaemonFCthen you'll be bitching to someoneMay 23 17:17
_Goblinlisten, Ive had to challenge the MS faithful many times on MS watch over homophobia.  I do not believe the surname offensive because its his real name.May 23 17:17
DaemonFCno, why don't I insult your race, gender, religion, or sexuality?May 23 17:18
DaemonFCtake your pickMay 23 17:18
DaemonFCI'm well within my rights, right?May 23 17:18
DaemonFCas much as that guy with that screen name wasMay 23 17:18
_GoblinDaemon, Im an adult..If I was offended by what people said I wouldnt post online.May 23 17:18
_Goblinyou can say what you wantMay 23 17:18
DaemonFCyou won't be defending it when it's youMay 23 17:18
DaemonFCoh sure, nobody is terrorizing you, personallyMay 23 17:19
_Goblin?May 23 17:19
DaemonFCso it's easy to blow something like this offMay 23 17:19
_GoblinlolMay 23 17:19
_Goblinyeah ive not had any slurs against me....May 23 17:19
_Goblinof course....May 23 17:19
_GoblinIm an adult....grow up daemonMay 23 17:19
DaemonFCmaybe biologicallyMay 23 17:20
DaemonFCbut you're about as mature as a 4 year oldMay 23 17:20
_Goblinhere we go, this will be goodMay 23 17:20
DaemonFCseriously, like, fart and poop jokes level of mentalityMay 23 17:20
_Goblingive me an example.May 23 17:20
_Goblinwhere.May 23 17:20
taconewowMay 23 17:20
twitterVerrizon let's man die over $20 bill.  http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/225259&art_pos=15May 23 17:20
taconecan I flame with you guys ?May 23 17:21
DaemonFCyou have no idea what it's like to be harassedMay 23 17:21
_Goblin?May 23 17:21
_Goblincome on daemon give examplesMay 23 17:21
twitterFunny how the same company had no problems violating privacy for BushMay 23 17:21
DaemonFCso obviously you have no empathy towards othersMay 23 17:21
_Goblindaemon, give examples of my "fart and poop" jokes?May 23 17:21
taconetwitter: wanna join the flame ?May 23 17:21
_Goblinjust one example Daemon, thats all...May 23 17:22
twittercool lawyer http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1951237&art_pos=17May 23 17:22
twitteryou guys can keep the flames to yourselves, or better yet take them elsewhere.May 23 17:23
twitterI'm content telling FC his skull is 5cm thick.May 23 17:23
DaemonFCI've dealt with people like youMay 23 17:24
DaemonFCyou're just lucky you're not hereMay 23 17:24
_GoblinIm sure - Moving on, the PB case (pending appeal) I think shows people are flogging a dead horse.May 23 17:26
twitterlooks like a threat of violence, FC.  I am glad I'm not there.May 23 17:26
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twitterRoy, you are a Palm fan?  What's going on here http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1621243&art_pos=23May 23 17:27
DaemonFChttp://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/23/1459230May 23 17:29
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 17:29
twitterthe nightmare that Windows programing is http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/157245&art_pos=25May 23 17:30
DaemonFCthey probably shut it off to stop virusesMay 23 17:30
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neighborleemono intrusionMay 23 17:31
neighborleehttp://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=221769&highlight=monoMay 23 17:31
neighborlee'SElinux GUI' requires mono as dependency..May 23 17:31
taconewoha !May 23 17:31
twitter-> What does this say for the wisdom of non-US citizens relying on US companies for their business or communication?May 23 17:31
twitterwhat indeed?May 23 17:32
DaemonFCfuck emMay 23 17:32
DaemonFChonestlyMay 23 17:32
DaemonFCviruses and jihadMay 23 17:32
twitterat least a US company in Redmond.May 23 17:32
DaemonFCwoohooMay 23 17:32
taconehappy ubuntu uses appArmor thenMay 23 17:32
DaemonFCCrapparmorMay 23 17:32
taconewaitMay 23 17:33
taconeit's just the admin panelMay 23 17:33
DaemonFCthere's a reason Novell tossed their development teamMay 23 17:33
taconedid they refuse to use mono ?May 23 17:33
DaemonFCand the only service Ubuntu uses that flimsy non-protection on is CUPS anywayMay 23 17:33
DaemonFCit's weakMay 23 17:33
twitterAdobe whips out DMCA against free software http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1254246&art_pos=29May 23 17:35
DaemonFCyayMay 23 17:35
DaemonFCmaybe people will stop seeing Adobe as their saviourMay 23 17:35
DaemonFCthey never have beenMay 23 17:35
twitterwhile Opera CEO sees HTML 5 as flash replacement http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/1634215&art_pos=20May 23 17:36
silentivmAdobe sucks :)May 23 17:36
DaemonFCit's notMay 23 17:36
MinceRi'd like to know why opera likes adobeMay 23 17:36
DaemonFCHTML 5 is nowhere near as advanced as FlashMay 23 17:36
twitterps and pdf were reasonable formatsMay 23 17:36
DaemonFCit's an FLV replacement maybeMay 23 17:36
MinceRpdf is not a reasonable formatMay 23 17:36
twitterit is sad that Adobe acts like thisMay 23 17:37
MinceRit's a crap reinvention of psMay 23 17:37
MinceRwith marketing that claims it can do things it can't and that it's something it isn'tMay 23 17:37
twitterand gsgl probably would have been bestMay 23 17:37
twitterjust the same pdf works for meMay 23 17:37
MinceRi've seen lots of incompatibilities about pdfMay 23 17:37
twitterbetter than Silverlight ever willMay 23 17:37
DaemonFCFlash can create all kinds of web appsMay 23 17:38
MinceRthe "portable" document format isn't portable at allMay 23 17:38
DaemonFCHTML 5 can play music and video filesMay 23 17:38
twitterI've yet to run into a pdf portability problemMay 23 17:38
twitterprobably because I don't use WindowsMay 23 17:38
MinceRi have a couple pdfs where the uppercase "A" in a certain font shows in adobe reader and foxit but not in any poppler-based viewerMay 23 17:38
twitterso many problems go away that wayMay 23 17:38
MinceRi have a pdf i generated with latex where the fonts start being condensed from a certain character when viewed in okularMay 23 17:39
MinceRbut not when viewed in evinceMay 23 17:39
twitterfont problems.... hmmm that should not happenMay 23 17:39
MinceRwell it shouldn't but it doesMay 23 17:40
twitteruntil svg works as a reasonable replacement, I'll have to stick to pdf with eps graphicsMay 23 17:40
schestowitzneighborlee: thanks for the pointerMay 23 17:40
neighborleeschestowitz: anytime ;)),,thx for listening...May 23 17:41
twittererosion of 4th amendment http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/22/0622222&art_pos=31May 23 17:43
taconeyeah, pretty scaring stuffMay 23 17:43
tacone(the selinux admin gui in mono)May 23 17:43
DaemonFCyeah, and I'll shoot themMay 23 17:45
DaemonFCas unlawful trespassers in my homeMay 23 17:45
DaemonFCso I'd really like to see them tryMay 23 17:45
DaemonFC"Due to the fact that Syria is currently classified as a state sponsor of terrorism by the US government, we are unable to provide services to individuals located in this nation," said Christine Jones, the head of the GoDaddy's legal team.May 23 17:46
DaemonFClike.........May 23 17:46
DaemonFCaccepting his payment for a domain name?May 23 17:46
twitterLOL, requiring mono for SELinux GUI.May 23 17:46
DaemonFCin the first place?May 23 17:46
twitterthat's like putting a Windows box inside your super secure OpenBSD data repository and using it to admin the placeMay 23 17:47
DaemonFCOpenBSD is pointlessMay 23 17:48
DaemonFCand they cheat in determining vulnerabilitiesMay 23 17:48
DaemonFCtheir default setup has almost nothing turned onMay 23 17:49
DaemonFCby the time you get a functional server you have pretty much all the problems of the other BSDsMay 23 17:49
DaemonFCI'd just use FreeBSD and have done with itMay 23 17:50
DaemonFCtheir blob stripping policy may or may not have any security impactMay 23 17:52
DaemonFCbut it will cause less hardware to workMay 23 17:52
DaemonFCI can understand removing those if you don't need them thoughMay 23 17:52
*twitter has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))May 23 17:54
MinceRso have they fixed their unicode support already? :>May 23 17:54
DaemonFCit's been a while since I've used itMay 23 17:55
DaemonFCit's OK if you want to use it as a router or somethingMay 23 17:55
DaemonFCI've set it up like thatMay 23 17:55
DaemonFCI have a strong preference for FreeBSD thoughMay 23 17:55
DaemonFCfor a workstationMay 23 17:56
MinceRi mean freebsdMay 23 17:56
DaemonFCworks fine for meMay 23 17:56
DaemonFCI have the 7.2 branchMay 23 17:56
MinceRhttp://pod.tst.eu/http://cvs.schmorp.de/rxvt-unicode/doc/rxvt.7.pod#I_am_on_FreeBSD_and_rxvt_unicode_doeMay 23 17:57
DaemonFChmmmmMay 23 17:58
DaemonFCI've never seen any issues, but that's meMay 23 17:58
DaemonFCthe first system I had was FreeBSD 6 dual booting on my XP boxMay 23 17:59
MinceRthen there was the bug in the em driver which caused watchdog timeoutsMay 23 18:00
DaemonFCevery OS will have bugsMay 23 18:02
DaemonFCbut Linux is a bit laxMay 23 18:03
DaemonFCtakes the attitude of "We'll fix them whenever"May 23 18:03
DaemonFCyou'll notice that with every kernel releaseMay 23 18:03
DaemonFCbecause releases are not meant to be long lived anyway and point releases can take care of some of the obvious stuffMay 23 18:04
DaemonFCFreeBSD releases are meant to have the worst stuff fixed before it's declared ReleaseMay 23 18:05
MinceRfreebsd takes the attitude of hypeMay 23 18:05
MinceRand the rc system is crapMay 23 18:06
MinceRi think i've mentioned the time when i tried to get mysql to work on freebsd 5May 23 18:06
MinceRand the official docs were useless because freebsd does everything its own way, but had no docs of its ownMay 23 18:07
MinceRand the freebsd packages were unusableMay 23 18:07
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Balrog_MinceR: you mean OpenRC?May 23 18:21
Balrog_I use that on gentoo; works wellMay 23 18:21
MinceRi mean the crap that puts half the system under /usr/localMay 23 18:22
schestowitzCamera grid to log number plates < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/whos_watching_you/8064333.stm >May 23 18:22
schestowitzThere's no endingMay 23 18:23
schestowitzAny evidence this actually reduces crime?May 23 18:23
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DaemonFCnone whatsoeverMay 23 18:27
DaemonFCit's an excuse to put cameras upMay 23 18:27
schestowitzJudge Apparently Thinks He Can Tell Newspaper Which Photos It Can Use < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090522/0250034974.shtml >May 23 18:40
schestowitz_Goblin: you there?May 23 18:44
DaemonFCWhen he was an upstanding legislator?May 23 18:45
DaemonFCwas that before or after the tax cheating?May 23 18:45
DaemonFC:)May 23 18:45
schestowitzYou mention Thom Holwerda  in http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/goblins-anti-microsoft-soapbox/ . Well, he's pro-MS in many ways and some readers including myself ditched OS News when he became a Windows boosterMay 23 18:45
_Goblinyep im hereMay 23 18:53
_Goblinfor a few minutesMay 23 18:53
_Goblingoing out for dinnerMay 23 18:53
_Goblinyeah I tried to engage Thom before..May 23 18:54
schestowitzWon't workMay 23 18:54
_Goblinhes a dodgy little begger (IMO)May 23 18:54
schestowitz"Workfix"May 23 18:54
_GoblinI think the only thing more silly than his opinions are his sunglassesMay 23 18:55
_Goblinill give it a go thoughMay 23 18:55
_Goblinright off out for dinner with the wife....May 23 18:56
_Goblinlovely little country pub in our village...May 23 18:56
_Goblinsee you laterMay 23 18:56
schestowitzGoblins?May 23 18:56
schestowitzTrolls?May 23 18:56
schestowitzGargoyles?May 23 18:56
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schestowitzCriminal company < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Phioe4DGu5E&feature=related > Gives MSFT high rating http://www.marketwatch.com/m/Story/b7fd3f80-2c8f-4d03-89fc-07a2047bb978May 23 19:01
DaemonFCMicrosoft is trying to sell debt bonds :PMay 23 19:04
DaemonFChttp://slashdot.org/submission/1006009/Microsoft-to-remove-3-app-limit-on-Starter-editionMay 23 19:06
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DaemonFChttp://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/blogs/bizfeed/165308/microsofts_kumo_just_another_search_imitator.htmlMay 23 19:16
DaemonFCPC World isn't impressed with the new Live SearchMay 23 19:16
schestowitzKumo?May 23 19:17
schestowitzOhMay 23 19:17
schestowitzWaitMay 23 19:17
schestowitzYou posted a linkMay 23 19:17
schestowitzWell, Microsoft knows it's just a renameMay 23 19:17
schestowitzAnd some hype about that company they acuiredMay 23 19:17
schestowitzMake-believe 'open source'May 23 19:17
schestowitzhttp://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/microsoft-has-cold-feet/May 23 19:18
schestowitzMicrosoft job posting talks up "Zune Mobile" < http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/05/microsoft-job-posting-talks-up-zune-mobile.ars >May 23 19:19
schestowitzBut they deny itMay 23 19:19
schestowitzThat would end their relationship with OEMsMay 23 19:20
schestowitzBig messupMay 23 19:20
DaemonFCAverMedia is doing Linux driversMay 23 19:20
DaemonFCbut this has traditionally been a Windows only line of TV tunersMay 23 19:21
DaemonFCI'm wondering if HI get one of those models, will the drivers keep coming?May 23 19:21
taconeoem relationship have already been endedMay 23 19:21
DaemonFC*IMay 23 19:21
schestowitzRUMOR: Microsoft developing Zune-Xbox handheld gaming device < http://www.gamepro.com/article/news/210279/rumor-microsoft-developing-zune-xbox-handheld-gaming-device/ >May 23 19:21
schestowitztacone: pls elaborateMay 23 19:21
schestowitzIt seems like old news (Zune Mobile)May 23 19:21
DaemonFCI doubt Microsoft has the expertise to do a handheldMay 23 19:21
taconeschestowitz: hyperbole.May 23 19:21
schestowitzThis is just an immortal rumour lasting for yearsMay 23 19:22
DaemonFCSony's PSP was a flopMay 23 19:22
schestowitzLike Red hat being acquiredMay 23 19:22
DaemonFCthe things aren't meant to be a powerhouseMay 23 19:22
taconeschestowitz: i just have the feeling oem can't wait to get rid of microsoftMay 23 19:22
taconeas much as intelMay 23 19:22
taconeand about everyone else.May 23 19:22
schestowitztacone: well, it's trueMay 23 19:22
schestowitzIt's no feelingMay 23 19:22
DaemonFCwho cares if the graphics are good if the bateries die almost instantlyMay 23 19:22
schestowitzThey SAY soMay 23 19:22
schestowitzAcer CEOMay 23 19:22
DaemonFCit's Game Gear 2.0May 23 19:22
DaemonFC:PMay 23 19:22
schestowitzOn behalf of othersMay 23 19:22
taconedell alsoMay 23 19:22
schestowitzThey want to distinguish themselvesMay 23 19:22
schestowitzAnd control marginsMay 23 19:22
taconehp shipped ubuntuMay 23 19:22
schestowitzMS messes with themMay 23 19:23
schestowitzForces them to buy bulk or dieMay 23 19:23
DaemonFCwell, this is something that's going to have to work itself outMay 23 19:23
schestowitzHP just corss-lic'ed again with MSMay 23 19:23
taconethey can't compete with Apple with MS forcing it's ugly OS upon themMay 23 19:23
DaemonFCif hardware makers aren't behind Linux then you get drivers for whatever a Linux developer hasMay 23 19:23
schestowitzI'm not happy about itMay 23 19:23
schestowitzCould be Linux relatedMay 23 19:23
schestowitzBut it's kept secretMay 23 19:23
DaemonFCto see more of that, go back about 7-8 yearsMay 23 19:23
taconebusiness relationships with MS are not partner stuff. are threat vs threat.May 23 19:24
schestowitzThe Rob Enderle    shill writes for TGDaily againMay 23 19:24
schestowitzAnti-LinuxMay 23 19:24
DaemonFC7-8 years ago, you booted up Linux and had no network, video, or soundMay 23 19:24
schestowitzAs usualMay 23 19:24
schestowitzWon't linkMay 23 19:24
DaemonFCnow it's maybe down to TV cards and a few other devicesMay 23 19:24
schestowitzDay trip of the Shills IncorporatedMay 23 19:24
schestowitzDaemonFC said he worked for EdelmanMay 23 19:25
schestowitzBunch of scum they areMay 23 19:25
schestowitzPrison-worthyMay 23 19:25
DaemonFCI said no such thingMay 23 19:25
schestowitzBoycotted even by IDGMay 23 19:25
schestowitzDaemonFC: oh, sorryMay 23 19:25
schestowitzThey also bribed bloggersMay 23 19:25
schestowitzVista laptopsMay 23 19:25
schestowitzThey should be treated like lobbyists and bannedMay 23 19:25
DaemonFCI said I was in low level management of a company that used Edelman to astroturfMay 23 19:25
schestowitzCommunity services as gardeners would do... for just 20 yearsMay 23 19:25
DaemonFCWalmartMay 23 19:25
DaemonFCthat was a couple years ago that I left themMay 23 19:26
schestowitzWal-Mart are another filthy oneMay 23 19:26
schestowitzBut much biggerMay 23 19:26
schestowitzAnd not IT-focusedMay 23 19:26
DaemonFCI got out of there as fast as I couldMay 23 19:26
taconeuhm: berlusconi "people vote left because they're envious"May 23 19:26
taconelol, OT, but funnyMay 23 19:26
DaemonFCWalmart uses Windows all overMay 23 19:26
schestowitztacone: yeah..May 23 19:26
DaemonFCand SCO UNIXMay 23 19:26
schestowitzHehe.,May 23 19:27
schestowitzTheir chief douche is not in MSMay 23 19:27
schestowitzKevin TurnerMay 23 19:27
DaemonFCXP Embedded on self checkouts, XP Embedded on the inventory check in/check out systemsMay 23 19:27
schestowitzAnd they bought Ballnux to add to MS' FUD weaponryMay 23 19:27
DaemonFCSCO UNIX on handheld terminalsMay 23 19:27
DaemonFCWindows 2008 Enterprise on their store's central computerMay 23 19:28
DaemonFCit was 2003 Enterprise when I leftMay 23 19:28
schestowitzWell, they share a lot in common with MSMay 23 19:28
schestowitzIt's never surprising when they alignMay 23 19:28
DaemonFCMicrosoft's enterprise stuff is much more reliable than the stuff consumers getMay 23 19:28
DaemonFCmuch much moreMay 23 19:28
DaemonFCbut it's still all kinds of expensiveMay 23 19:28
schestowitzBoth neo-nationalists so-to-speak, merciless, pretend they do it for public good.May 23 19:28
schestowitzThere's a good 1-hour movie about them in Google VideoMay 23 19:29
DaemonFCWalmart farms out all of their IT stuffMay 23 19:29
DaemonFCthey actually have a contract with Microsoft to do on-site workMay 23 19:29
schestowitzhttp://www.crunchgear.com/2009/05/18/microsoft-will-reset-cheaters-xbox-live-gamerscore/May 23 19:30
DaemonFCbut those Edelman people are scum of the scumMay 23 19:30
DaemonFCthey made me do union avoidance surveysMay 23 19:30
schestowitzOnly news for XBox this week: people banned, penalisedMay 23 19:30
DaemonFCprofiling everyone under meMay 23 19:30
schestowitzIOW, nothing newMay 23 19:30
schestowitzXBox is in trouble, stillMay 23 19:30
DaemonFCand how likely they were to want to join a unionMay 23 19:30
schestowitzLosing money, losing its leadersMay 23 19:30
schestowitz(still) losing money. Already lost like 6 billionMay 23 19:31
DaemonFCThat's the big thing at Walmart, if you say you want a union, they find a way to fire youMay 23 19:31
DaemonFCit won't happen right away or for that reason (on paper)May 23 19:31
DaemonFCbut you're finished :PMay 23 19:31
schestowitzYeah, not just themMay 23 19:32
schestowitzThe USARMay 23 19:32
schestowitz[sic]May 23 19:32
DaemonFCEdelman also comes up with union avoidance propagandaMay 23 19:32
schestowitzYesMay 23 19:32
DaemonFCto feed to hourly management and employeesMay 23 19:32
schestowitzDaemonisation of unionsMay 23 19:32
schestowitzFamiliar patternMay 23 19:32
schestowitzSome warn about itMay 23 19:32
schestowitz"Those horrible people who protest..."May 23 19:32
DaemonFCthey are truly evil peopleMay 23 19:32
schestowitz"They disrupt our peace etc etc"May 23 19:32
DaemonFCand I'm glad I don't have to do what they tell me anymoreMay 23 19:32
schestowitzWell, they can DDOS youMay 23 19:33
schestowitzTo shut you upMay 23 19:33
DaemonFCwell, first of all, they were overworking me, I was doing 60+ hours a weekMay 23 19:33
DaemonFCstandard was 48 or so they tell youMay 23 19:33
schestowitzIf the Internet is what you have left, then there are 'solutions' for that tooMay 23 19:33
DaemonFCbefore you go into managementMay 23 19:33
DaemonFCsecond of all, I couldn't get a decent raiseMay 23 19:33
schestowitzraise?May 23 19:33
schestowitzWhy?May 23 19:33
DaemonFCbecause I told them I didn't want to relocateMay 23 19:33
schestowitzThey don't NEED toMay 23 19:34
schestowitzSo why would they?May 23 19:34
schestowitz[sarcasm]May 23 19:34
schestowitzCaterpillar did similar thingMay 23 19:34
schestowitzPardon the mentionMay 23 19:34
DaemonFCwell, they tell you that you're supposed to get 5-6% raise a yearMay 23 19:34
schestowitzThey did illegal thingsMay 23 19:34
schestowitzFor the first time as I understand itMay 23 19:34
schestowitzThreatening to make scads (??) in SAMay 23 19:34
DaemonFCbut they take it down to 2% and a pay cap of $40,000 a year for not wanting to relocateMay 23 19:34
DaemonFC(assistant manager)May 23 19:34
schestowitzThen extorting the workforce to stop making demandsMay 23 19:34
schestowitzWal-Mart is stepping closer to communismMay 23 19:35
DaemonFCso to make any money, you have to get up to co or store manager at leastMay 23 19:35
schestowitzLike the "one brand for a loaf of bread" situationMay 23 19:35
DaemonFCor just give up and leaveMay 23 19:35
schestowitzThere won't be supermarketMay 23 19:35
DaemonFCthat would be ALDIMay 23 19:35
schestowitzThere will be WMMay 23 19:35
DaemonFC:PMay 23 19:35
schestowitzLike GoogleMay 23 19:35
schestowitzAnd computer (=Windows)May 23 19:35
schestowitzBlack or whiteMay 23 19:35
DaemonFCWalmart has only ever sold WIndowsMay 23 19:35
DaemonFCexcept in a few test storesMay 23 19:36
DaemonFCand only on cheapass systemsMay 23 19:36
schestowitzObama (elites) vs MCBush( elites)May 23 19:36
DaemonFCnever the selling point, they just use Linux to get the price down $50May 23 19:36
schestowitzThey sold LinuxMay 23 19:36
schestowitzThen Microsoft fought itMay 23 19:36
schestowitzBN has the documents that show thisMay 23 19:36
schestowitzIllegalMay 23 19:36
DaemonFCnot in box sets or on decent systemsMay 23 19:36
schestowitzLow-endMay 23 19:36
DaemonFCexactlyMay 23 19:36
DaemonFCsuper low endMay 23 19:37
DaemonFCthe system was shit and the major feature was it was $200May 23 19:37
DaemonFCit's probably better that they don't ship Linux on those systemsMay 23 19:37
DaemonFCthey sell those motherboards complete with RAM and CPU for like $80May 23 19:38
DaemonFCthey're junkMay 23 19:38
DaemonFCbut they can make a basic email and web browsing systemMay 23 19:38
DaemonFCnow they're shipping those with Ubuntu :PMay 23 19:39
*DaemonFC actually liked gOS slightly betterMay 23 19:39
schestowitzAdmission that Vista failed: Microsoft, analysts tell companies to kill Vista plans < http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=45E5512E-1A64-6A71-CE0D8CC8D6EE20C8 >May 23 19:40
schestowitzIt was LinsoireMay 23 19:40
schestowitz2006May 23 19:40
DaemonFCno, they sold bothMay 23 19:40
DaemonFCLinspire in 2006May 23 19:40
DaemonFCgOS in 2008May 23 19:41
schestowitzI knowMay 23 19:41
schestowitzBut I have proof for 2006 sabotage from MicrosoftMay 23 19:41
schestowitzPart of a patternMay 23 19:41
DaemonFChttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883118007May 23 19:43
DaemonFCGee, I wonder what that could have been trying to copy ;)May 23 19:43
DaemonFCschestowitz: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883118010&Tpk=everexMay 23 19:43
DaemonFCThere's the low end crap I was talking aboutMay 23 19:44
DaemonFCheh, recertified crapMay 23 19:44
DaemonFCI hold in my hand, the paper PROVING that the last owner hated it as much as I probably will :)May 23 19:44
DaemonFCheheMay 23 19:44
twittercrude attacks, FCMay 23 19:45
twitterdo you have anything nice to say about free software?May 23 19:45
schestowitzReport: Russian group offers $200M to Facebook < http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2009/05/18/daily84.html >May 23 19:45
schestowitztwitter: not reallyMay 23 19:45
schestowitzRarelyMay 23 19:45
schestowitzbut he occasionally have criticism against MicrosoftMay 23 19:46
DaemonFCit's not a criticism of LinuxMay 23 19:46
DaemonFCit's that that system sucksMay 23 19:46
schestowitzDaemonFC: the consensus here is clear. Don't gravitate to agitation of violence.May 23 19:46
DaemonFCthe hardware is barely capable of doing anythingMay 23 19:46
schestowitzI remember having to kick you the first day because many people asked for it. You were trolling maddinglyMay 23 19:46
DaemonFCso it's crippled out of the box and they're using it as a vessel so that people don't like LinuxMay 23 19:46
twitterlooking at the Vista failure linkMay 23 19:47
DaemonFCwell, I think they use these extremely low end systems with Linux as a point of entryMay 23 19:47
DaemonFCto get you looking at the big powerful systems they put Windows onMay 23 19:48
DaemonFColdest retail trick in the bookMay 23 19:48
twitterI think that's the third or fourth such admission from M$May 23 19:48
schestowitzIncompetence+vapourware: Microsoft: Exchange 2007 SP2 required for interop with Exchange 2010 < http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2834 >May 23 19:48
schestowitzMore lockinware for companiesMay 23 19:48
twitteryes, FC, it's an upsel.  but it can be done with free software too - the retailer does not make any extra money with Windows.May 23 19:49
schestowitzThe machines sold at these shops are low-end because they are for new usersMay 23 19:49
DaemonFCYou go to Walmart and at the end of the aisle they have the $30 microwave with no features and no name, and then the whole point it to get you to look at the better models of microwaves without worrying about the priceMay 23 19:49
schestowitzFor the most partMay 23 19:49
twitterexcept for repairsMay 23 19:49
schestowitzThey sold WELLMay 23 19:49
DaemonFCthe Linux computer is likewise there to soften the buyer upMay 23 19:49
DaemonFCfor the models with better hardwareMay 23 19:49
DaemonFCschestowitz: I don't think Microsoft cares that Walmart is selling themMay 23 19:50
twitterexcept that that Linux was what they were buyingMay 23 19:50
DaemonFCMicrosoft probably asked them to sell those Linux systemsMay 23 19:50
twitterdid you see the journal article I posted with their hit list email FC?May 23 19:50
twitterthey cared enough to waste a whole team on it.May 23 19:50
DaemonFCNo name PC, tiny amount of RAM, slow no name CPU, integrated video, no expansion port......hardly qualityMay 23 19:50
*tacone has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")May 23 19:51
DaemonFCthen the next feature Linux!May 23 19:51
twitteryou know, money that could have been spent making software or something.May 23 19:51
DaemonFCnot putting Linux in the best of light hereMay 23 19:51
twitterthat GNU/Linux thrives on such low end systems is very good lightMay 23 19:51
DaemonFCif I was Microsoft, I would fund the rollout of those Linux systemsMay 23 19:52
DaemonFCfor the point of making Windows look betterMay 23 19:52
twitterIt works better than windows on much better hardware, what could be better than that?May 23 19:52
DaemonFCcause Linux still performs badly on that hardwareMay 23 19:52
DaemonFCwhere there's a big powerful Vista system next to itMay 23 19:52
twitterof course, you are not M$ (are you?) and that's not what they did at allMay 23 19:52
DaemonFCyou throw enough hardware at Windows, it works fineMay 23 19:52
DaemonFCthey're just using slight of handMay 23 19:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: do your homework, DaemonFC May 23 19:53
schestowitzMicrosoft was nervous about itMay 23 19:53
schestowitzIt still isMay 23 19:53
twitterWell, they did make a pact with OEMs to cripple netbook displays, cpu, memory and other stuffMay 23 19:53
DaemonFCbut a low end system is slow no matter what you useMay 23 19:53
schestowitzLinux is theirt #1 rivalMay 23 19:53
DaemonFCno desktop effectsMay 23 19:53
DaemonFChitting the swap fileMay 23 19:53
DaemonFCbad processorMay 23 19:53
twitterHave you used a EEE PC?May 23 19:53
twitterwhat you describe is a typical Windows experienceMay 23 19:54
DaemonFCI played around with one of those gPCs, wasn't impressedMay 23 19:54
twitterGNU/Linux is nothing like thatMay 23 19:54
DaemonFCtoo slowMay 23 19:54
DaemonFChas Linux on it, the point of putting Linux on bad hardware is to make Linux look badMay 23 19:54
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twitterEEE PC was just fineMay 23 19:54
DaemonFCyou have to turn off so many features that Linux is completely stripped bareMay 23 19:55
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 19:55
twitterworks as well as my X30 and that's better than XP on a dual core processorMay 23 19:55
Balrog_DaemonFC: I've used an eee pc with liuxMay 23 19:55
Balrog_works very wellMay 23 19:55
twitternot much has to be turned off either, I think he's projecting XP embedded problems.May 23 19:55
DaemonFCso they have a low number limited release of a crappy box that happens to have Linux on itMay 23 19:55
DaemonFCand when people return itMay 23 19:55
DaemonFCyou publish that in the newsMay 23 19:55
DaemonFCcost them nothing and they got marketing value out of itMay 23 19:56
twitterIt would be better for you to use a few systems than to keep mouthing off like this, FC.May 23 19:56
DaemonFCI haveMay 23 19:56
schestowitzWindows hardly ran on Eee PCMay 23 19:57
DaemonFCLinux really doesn't run well on less than 1 gig of RAM and an Athlon64May 23 19:57
schestowitzThey had to beef it upMay 23 19:57
DaemonFCwith a Geforce 6200May 23 19:57
schestowitzAnd make it far more expeensivewMay 23 19:57
macabeHave eeePC 1000HA running Debian Lenny/SID - no negative issuesMay 23 19:57
schestowitzAs much as 3-4 times more expensiveMay 23 19:57
DaemonFCthat's the lowest I've tried on my hardwareMay 23 19:57
DaemonFCjust barely acceptableMay 23 19:57
*PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellMay 23 19:57
DaemonFCUbuntu with GNOME is as much of a memory hog as VistaMay 23 19:57
Balrog_DaemonFC: not reallyMay 23 19:57
Balrog_I've used it, and it runs REALLY WELLMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCon 512 megs of RAM, you can't use itMay 23 19:58
Balrog_1GB ramMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCyou have to wait while the PC catches upMay 23 19:58
twitterLOL, FC, tell your gnu/linux sucks story to my 1.2 GHz PIIIMay 23 19:58
Balrog_512 MB is ok tooMay 23 19:58
twitteryepMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCif you strip it downMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCuse WindowMaker or somethingMay 23 19:58
Balrog_I have Xubuntu 8.10 running on a 500 MHz laptopMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCbut my point is that it can't run GNOME with 512 megsMay 23 19:58
twitterE16, thanks, but Gnome and KDE work tooMay 23 19:58
DaemonFCit'll work but just barelyMay 23 19:58
twitterwith 512May 23 19:58
Balrog_Gnome will work wellMay 23 19:59
Balrog_KDE4 may be a bit of a problemMay 23 19:59
twitterbetter than Vista ever will workMay 23 19:59
DaemonFCXP works down to 128 megsMay 23 19:59
DaemonFCGNOME or KDE about 1 gigMay 23 19:59
twitterhave not tried KDE 4 yet, it's in Debian testing so I will soon.May 23 19:59
DaemonFCand it's not jsut me, I've heard people ask why GNOME is so bloatedMay 23 19:59
DaemonFCor why KDE itMay 23 20:00
twitterXP is slow crap on new hardware, I use it daily so don't BS meMay 23 20:00
DaemonFCand why it can't run on systems where XP canMay 23 20:00
twitterliesMay 23 20:00
Balrog_yes, lies ... I've used GNOME on many systems, several slowMay 23 20:00
Balrog_KDE4 is heavier than GNOMEMay 23 20:00
DaemonFCGNOME is only useful with 1 gig+ of RAMMay 23 20:00
DaemonFCthat seems to make more difference than the CPUMay 23 20:01
Balrog_DaemonFC: falseMay 23 20:01
twitterI've got Lenny on a 233 MHz PII, that is slow.May 23 20:01
Balrog_(and little RAM)May 23 20:01
twitterbut it works about as well as XP that I use at work with a dual core processorMay 23 20:01
schestowitzCheck out: http://industry.bnet.com/technology/10001803/et-tu-intel-microsofts-ambitions-lie-bleeding/May 23 20:01
DaemonFCthe toolkits are bloated, developers get crazy with features that few people even useMay 23 20:01
DaemonFCthis is KDE mostly, and GNOME to a slightly lesser extentMay 23 20:01
MinceRyou'd love osx then :>May 23 20:02
*schestowitz runs KDE with 256MB of RAMMay 23 20:02
schestowitzDaemonFC: take the FUD to another channelMay 23 20:02
DaemonFCit's not FUDMay 23 20:02
DaemonFCI would never think of using either one of them without at least a gig of RAMMay 23 20:02
schestowitzIt's flaseMay 23 20:02
twitterthat last link about Vista failure, quoted that Michael Silver toolMay 23 20:02
DaemonFCI don't know how anyone could stand toMay 23 20:02
twitteryou don't know much, FCMay 23 20:03
schestowitz /s/tool/shill/May 23 20:03
twitteroutside of windowsMay 23 20:03
DaemonFCUbuntu is already out of memory at bootupMay 23 20:03
DaemonFCwith 512 megsMay 23 20:03
DaemonFCno go load OpenOfficeMay 23 20:03
DaemonFCI'll get back to you in about 20 minutes when it loadsMay 23 20:03
MinceRmy desktop easily does all that with 512MBMay 23 20:03
DaemonFCand the computer unfreezedMay 23 20:03
MinceRmust be magicMay 23 20:03
twitterAfter Silver got busted with that EU FUD, I'm not sure how he shows his face in publicMay 23 20:04
MinceRDaemonFC: try physically installing it instead of running it under virtual pc under vista :>May 23 20:04
twitterlolMay 23 20:04
DaemonFCit's unfortunate that all operating systems are getting ridiculously bloated and that all their fanboys and the companies behind them can do is piss on you and say it's rainingMay 23 20:04
*amarsh04 runs KDE 3.5.10 with 384 MiB RAM, although even 128 MiB workedMay 23 20:04
DaemonFCbut it's bloatMay 23 20:04
Balrog_yes DaemonFC ... using a VM isn't going to give you good results much of the timeMay 23 20:04
macabeinfobash = CPU[Intel Pentium M clocked at 1600.000 Mhz]  Kernel[Linux 2.6.27-7-i686]May 23 20:05
twitterI feel pissed on , FC, could you please stop lying?May 23 20:05
Balrog_yes, pleaseMay 23 20:05
DaemonFCheh, I can open a VM with better simulated hardware than what you're telling me it runs onMay 23 20:05
macabeUp[-175days-]  Mem[-358.8/503.3MB-]  HDD[-100GB(13%used)-]  Procs[-101-]  Client[Shell]May 23 20:05
DaemonFCwhy would I torture myself with 512 megs of RAM?May 23 20:05
Balrog_DaemonFC: use a /real machine/ not a VMMay 23 20:05
DaemonFCI have tried it on real machinesMay 23 20:06
Balrog_VM has significant overheadMay 23 20:06
twitterit's only torture if you have Windows, FCMay 23 20:06
DaemonFCI tried to salvage a Dell with a 2 Ghz Celeron and 512 megs of RAMMay 23 20:06
DaemonFCI ended up junking itMay 23 20:06
DaemonFCUbuntu wasn't very fast on itMay 23 20:06
DaemonFCnot even enough to want to bother withMay 23 20:06
*amarsh04 times OOo 3.1 load with Iceweasel, Icedove, konversation loaded and playing an MP3 using the PII-266 / 384 MiB RAM: about 80 secondsMay 23 20:07
DaemonFCmy harebrained grandmother bought the thing against my warnings for my brother several years before, he'd never done anything with it muchMay 23 20:08
DaemonFCI ended up finding another 512 MB module and loading XP back onto itMay 23 20:08
Balrog_amarsh04: OOo 3.1 loads rather fast on my 1.5-2.5 GHz systems ... and it loads rather fast on that 500MHz / 512MB RAM Xubuntu system too ... like 25 secondsMay 23 20:09
DaemonFCDell has a unique way of making it look like they're not going to bone you with no lubeMay 23 20:09
amarsh04I ended up replacing an old hard disk that was well past its use-by date and the improvement was quite noticableMay 23 20:09
DaemonFCwhen you get obsolete hardware, a printer that needs expensive cartridges, and possibly UbuntuMay 23 20:10
twitterHickens makes no mention of GNU/Linux in his article.May 23 20:10
DaemonFCthey're setting you up for an expensive fail and they know that some people won't know they've been cheated and demand a refundMay 23 20:10
amarsh04if you don't mind paying for the cartridges, an HP Officejet Pro K5300 works quite wellMay 23 20:11
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DaemonFCwell, they know with all that ,you won't be satisfied and you'll buy a new systems soonerMay 23 20:12
DaemonFCa lot of them can't even be upgradedMay 23 20:12
twitterbut his link to Intel is MoblinMay 23 20:12
DaemonFCwithout throwing out the motherboardMay 23 20:12
twitterSo the gist of the article is, "Intel's new move to GNU/Linux is fatal for an already embattled M$"May 23 20:13
Balrog_though isn't Moblin connected with SUSE?May 23 20:13
schestowitzMicrosoft and Alibaba in Talks Again: for Future After Yahoo? < http://www.chinastakes.com/Article.aspx?id=1223 >May 23 20:14
twitterI imagine Intel is sore from M$'s moves against their GPUsMay 23 20:14
schestowitzBalrog_: it is nowMay 23 20:15
Balrog_hrm ... I wonder why :(May 23 20:15
twitterhow serious is Intel about dumping M$?May 23 20:15
twitterI know they refused VistaMay 23 20:15
twitterand they lost billions when XP sabotaged and then Vista did not "support" Intel graphics.May 23 20:16
Balrog_twitter: was vista able to support GMA950? Did it /have/ to exclude support?May 23 20:17
schestowitzMicrosoft Cut over 300 Jobs in Greater China Region < http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock News/2332611/ >May 23 20:17
schestowitzhttp://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&sourceid=mozclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&ncl=1243903775May 23 20:18
schestowitzExtortion thereMay 23 20:18
twitterI'm not sure of the current status.May 23 20:18
schestowitzYou pay for Windows or we take away jobMay 23 20:18
schestowitz*jobsMay 23 20:18
twitterbut Intel was, for a long time, the only free software 3D acceleration available.May 23 20:19
twitterM$ moved to crush it.  Forums are filled with XP gamer complaints and then there's the whole Vista Capable disaster.May 23 20:20
twitterAll of this for chipsets that work just fine under GNU/Linux.May 23 20:20
Balrog_yes  .... though the intel X series does work rightMay 23 20:20
Balrog_i.e. X1300, X3100, etcMay 23 20:20
twittersuch as the i810 in my laptop.May 23 20:20
twitter82830 hereMay 23 20:21
twitterI have a newer set in a desktop that is not as good with 3dMay 23 20:22
twitterthese are not the best chipsets but there is no reason for Vista to not work with them - the driver source code is publishedMay 23 20:22
twitterand we can be sure Intel made drivers for VistaMay 23 20:22
twitterthe difference must be sabotageMay 23 20:23
Balrog_I heard they didn't have some OpenGL functions "necessary" for AeroMay 23 20:23
Balrog_The wikipedia page says "This IGP is capable of displaying the Aero interface for Windows Vista."May 23 20:24
Balrog_about the 950May 23 20:24
Balrog_the GMA 900 lacks a "hardware scheduler"May 23 20:24
twitterVista lacks the ability to use Intel as GNU/Linux can.May 23 20:25
twitterIt is silly of them to try to blame OpenGL for their OS failure.May 23 20:25
twitteror maliceMay 23 20:26
Balrog_hmm ... the GMA900 isn't too commonMay 23 20:26
DaemonFCIntel won't use Vista but pushed it on retail customers and conspired with MS to dump hardware incapable of running itMay 23 20:26
DaemonFCso yeahMay 23 20:26
DaemonFCsounds more like do what we say....May 23 20:27
DaemonFC;)May 23 20:27
*DaemonFC edits Wikipedia to say it can'tMay 23 20:27
DaemonFCthen you can both be rightMay 23 20:28
DaemonFC:)May 23 20:28
DaemonFCdepending on which edit you sawMay 23 20:28
DaemonFCwith all the various Wikipedia scandals and subtle vandalism and outright plageurismMay 23 20:29
DaemonFChow can anyone tust it?May 23 20:29
twitterdeath watch updated with latest prediction of M$ demise http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707May 23 20:29
DaemonFChire Edelman to write your wikipedia articleMay 23 20:29
DaemonFC:DMay 23 20:29
DaemonFCif someone adds criticism, pay Edelman to move it to a "Criticism of" pageMay 23 20:29
DaemonFCthat nobody will seMay 23 20:30
DaemonFC*seeMay 23 20:30
twitterhas wikipedia baned your IP yet, FC?May 23 20:30
schestowitzProbablyMay 23 20:30
DaemonFCnoMay 23 20:30
DaemonFCcause I don't even really use itMay 23 20:30
DaemonFCespecially not for imporant thingsMay 23 20:30
twitterit is apparent you do little research of any kindMay 23 20:30
DaemonFCtwitter: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1830262May 23 20:30
DaemonFCenjoyMay 23 20:30
DaemonFCschestowitz: You may like that tooMay 23 20:31
twittergot it in flash free form?May 23 20:31
twitterI'm not sure I'll be able to watch it.  Let's find out.May 23 20:31
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaADQTeZRCYMay 23 20:32
DaemonFCmehMay 23 20:32
*neighborlee has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net")May 23 20:34
DaemonFCfunny and trueMay 23 20:35
DaemonFC:)May 23 20:35
schestowitz"Microsoft Corp., the world’s biggest software maker, and Wal-Mart Stores Inc. were among companies selling $32.6 billion of debt this week as investors show signs of “pulling back” after a seven-week credit rally." http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aMblLti8JOio&refer=usMay 23 20:36
schestowitzWhy would Wal-mart sell debt!?!May 23 20:36
twitterhow much for each?May 23 20:36
DaemonFCprobably to keep momentumMay 23 20:36
DaemonFCthey want to keep building storesMay 23 20:36
schestowitzMS firesMay 23 20:36
schestowitzAnd cancels productsMay 23 20:36
schestowitzIt's NOT expandingMay 23 20:37
DaemonFCvarious reasons but expansion of Walmart is probably the motivationMay 23 20:37
DaemonFCthis is the best time to expandMay 23 20:38
twitteris there anyplace that does not have a Walmart?May 23 20:38
DaemonFCprobably a fewMay 23 20:38
DaemonFCand you could always use another 3May 23 20:38
DaemonFC:PMay 23 20:38
twitterI suppose they can always move to newer, better stores.May 23 20:38
schestowitzSome of the Asian press seems corruptibleMay 23 20:38
twittertheir grocery store strategy is crazyMay 23 20:38
schestowitzI find too much MS PR put there like articlesMay 23 20:39
DaemonFCno, what they'll do is open new stores in the same citiesMay 23 20:39
schestowitzLike this one: http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2009/5/21/technology/20090521120345&sec=technology http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/index.php/business/26998-microsoft-to-invest-rm3-billion-to-develop-local-human-capitalMay 23 20:39
DaemonFCto surround competitorsMay 23 20:39
schestowitzMS makes no profits IMHOMay 23 20:39
DaemonFCand take their businessMay 23 20:39
schestowitzIn many countriesMay 23 20:39
DaemonFCit works tooMay 23 20:39
schestowitzThey just dump thereMay 23 20:39
schestowitzDump, dump, dumpMay 23 20:39
twitterdump, dump, dump, failMay 23 20:39
schestowitzIllegalMay 23 20:39
DaemonFCWalmart does a lot of dirty thingsMay 23 20:40
schestowitzBut improperly enforcedMay 23 20:40
DaemonFCif I could see them or Microsoft go, I'd rather see Walmart go underMay 23 20:40
schestowitzIt's 1pm and I think tessier is still asleepMay 23 20:40
schestowitzOverheard: Microsoft, Yahoo Talks Continue: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124286428097341365.htmlMay 23 20:40
twitterM$ is far more damaging than WalMartMay 23 20:40
DaemonFCnoMay 23 20:40
schestowitzNot sureMay 23 20:40
DaemonFCWalmart damages the US moreMay 23 20:40
schestowitzWhat's SM's market cap?May 23 20:40
DaemonFCthat's why I'd rather see them goMay 23 20:40
schestowitzJust wonderingMay 23 20:41
schestowitzDaemonFC: key word: USMay 23 20:41
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 20:41
schestowitzWM does less damage outside the USMay 23 20:41
DaemonFCso?May 23 20:41
DaemonFC:PMay 23 20:41
schestowitzASDA here in the UKMay 23 20:41
DaemonFCand CanadaMay 23 20:41
twitterWM turns over a lot more money than M$May 23 20:41
DaemonFC:)May 23 20:41
schestowitzWhat numbers?May 23 20:41
schestowitzI could look it upMay 23 20:41
schestowitzWaitMay 23 20:41
twitterWM also moved the US to trade with China - very damaging.May 23 20:41
schestowitzRevenue ▲ US$ 404.16 Billion May 23 20:42
schestowitzThis is crazyMay 23 20:42
schestowitzLet me check ExxonMay 23 20:42
schestowitzRevenue ▲ US$ 477.359 billion May 23 20:42
schestowitzWhere does all this money go?May 23 20:42
twitterYou have to check profit margins to determine economic harm.  WM is tiny.  Exxon and M$ are huge.May 23 20:43
schestowitzUsually people who are not even listed in the 'rich lists'May 23 20:43
twitterMost WM money gets dumped back into operations.May 23 20:43
schestowitztwitter: not ture IMHOMay 23 20:43
twitterMost M$ money goes into Bill Gates' pocket.May 23 20:43
schestowitzBut it's differentMay 23 20:43
schestowitzMS breaks the lawMay 23 20:43
schestowitzWM lobbies to get its 'franchise'May 23 20:43
schestowitzThe 'Red Store'May 23 20:43
twitterWM too breaks the law.May 23 20:43
schestowitzLike in Communist RussiaMay 23 20:43
twitterThey are a little less intrusive than M$ is because M$ handles and monopolizes such an important commodity.May 23 20:44
twitterWM's profit margins, from what I've read, are very thinMay 23 20:45
DaemonFCbullshitMay 23 20:45
DaemonFCthey say thatMay 23 20:45
twitterthey don't enjoy the kinds of obvious monopoly mark up as Exxon does on gasolineMay 23 20:45
DaemonFCwell, no, but very few companies doMay 23 20:46
twitterM$ used toMay 23 20:46
twitterno longer, which is healthy for the rest of us.May 23 20:46
DaemonFCwell, what are Microsoft's expenses?May 23 20:46
DaemonFCHow many thousands of employees do they need?May 23 20:46
DaemonFCat what salaries?May 23 20:46
DaemonFCWhat's their overhead?May 23 20:46
twitterIt's based on that profit margin and size and importance of what they interfere with that I say M$ is more harmful than Walmart.May 23 20:47
DaemonFCI'm sure their costs are hugeMay 23 20:47
twitterM$?May 23 20:47
DaemonFCjust on payroll, benefits, insuranceMay 23 20:47
twitterM$ costs are mostly marketing infrastructureMay 23 20:47
DaemonFCthat tooMay 23 20:47
DaemonFCbut it takes thousands of programmers at decent salaries to come up with their stuffMay 23 20:47
DaemonFCI'm sure it doesMay 23 20:47
twitterthey spend roughly a billion per month advertisingMay 23 20:47
twitterthey outsource coding nowMay 23 20:48
DaemonFCall of it?May 23 20:48
twitterand are the largest user of H1BMay 23 20:48
twitterI'm not sure what's left of their codersMay 23 20:48
twitterand I don't careMay 23 20:48
schestowitzSmells like AstroTurf, esp. in the comments: http://seekingalpha.com/article/137969-our-microsoft-investment-summaryMay 23 20:48
DaemonFCwell, you'd have to wonder how many people would be out of work if they went underMay 23 20:49
DaemonFCthere would be real consequences for real peopleMay 23 20:49
DaemonFCthat were just doing a jobMay 23 20:49
DaemonFCthe only problem Microsoft really has right now is that they are publicly tradedMay 23 20:50
DaemonFCand have to do things that are not in the long term interest of the companyMay 23 20:50
DaemonFCto produce dividends nowMay 23 20:50
DaemonFCmaking an IPO is like a pact with the devilMay 23 20:50
twitterM$ harms all sorts of markets, more people will do better when they are out of the way.May 23 20:50
DaemonFCyou no longer really run your own companyMay 23 20:50
DaemonFCI doubt itMay 23 20:51
twitterYes, but you use Vista and hate UbuntuMay 23 20:51
DaemonFCThey've made some bad decisionsMay 23 20:51
DaemonFCnothing they couldn't recover from if they started nowMay 23 20:51
DaemonFCbut they won't even admit they've screwed upMay 23 20:51
twitterRed Hat is growing, Google is doing well.  These are things M$ put off for a decade.May 23 20:52
DaemonFCwell, Linux is doing better with corporate customers than it is with consumersMay 23 20:52
twitterWord Perfect, Netscape, Lotus.... M$ has wrecked a lot of good companiesMay 23 20:52
DaemonFCand that's really all it ever has done wellMay 23 20:52
DaemonFCin terms of market shareMay 23 20:52
twitterthose are real jobs lostMay 23 20:52
DaemonFCcorporate customers have lots more moneyMay 23 20:52
schestowitzYesMay 23 20:53
twitterno they don'tMay 23 20:53
twitternot banksMay 23 20:53
schestowitzPeople forget about layoffs MS causedMay 23 20:53
DaemonFCso it's hurting a very profitable division of MicrosoftMay 23 20:53
twitternot insurance companiesMay 23 20:53
schestowitz"poor MS.."May 23 20:53
schestowitzWell...May 23 20:53
schestowitzI think it's fat cats could earn lessMay 23 20:53
schestowitzDismantle the thingMay 23 20:53
schestowitzAnd let young companies distribute the shareMay 23 20:53
schestowitzBut no...May 23 20:53
DaemonFCI'm sure Microsoft, given the choice would rather cede the consumer market than EnterpriseMay 23 20:53
twitterI think everyone could earn more with M$ not getting in the way.May 23 20:53
schestowitzThe gap only widens in the USMay 23 20:53
DaemonFCEnterprise is probably 80% of their profit or moreMay 23 20:53
schestowitzWith govt' approvalMay 23 20:53
twitterthe sooner they go the betterMay 23 20:53
twitterbblMay 23 20:53
schestowitzUntil disaster strikes as serves as a regularisation termMay 23 20:54
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DaemonFCI think it's more like, you're so worried about replacing them, that you aren't even concerned with what could replace themMay 23 20:54
DaemonFCAppleMay 23 20:54
DaemonFCwhich will be as bad or worseMay 23 20:54
DaemonFCI don't think people will ever be receptive to a fragmented and ad hoc operating system with no authority behind it to steer itMay 23 20:55
DaemonFCI mean that's what causes distributions in the beginningMay 23 20:55
DaemonFCso if Microsoft goes, Apple will eventually be a much worse monopolyMay 23 20:55
DaemonFCeither you will be locked into Apple hardware and Mac OSMay 23 20:56
schestowitzVideogame sales are down, down, DOWN! < http://blogs.computerworld.com/npd_videogame_sales_are_down_down_down >May 23 20:56
schestowitzNot good for anyone in this: MS, Sony, NintendoMay 23 20:56
DaemonFCor PC makers may just have Mac OS and it will fill the void of WindowsMay 23 20:56
schestowitzAnd MS loses lots of money there May 23 20:56
schestowitzNo turnaround. StuckMay 23 20:56
DaemonFCI was saying that the other dayMay 23 20:56
DaemonFCthe DRM is killing PC gamingMay 23 20:56
DaemonFCkilling themMay 23 20:56
DaemonFClike the recording industry, most of the gaming industry's wounds are entirely self-inflictedMay 23 20:57
DaemonFC"The cheaper PS2 may have also cut into Nintendo Wii sales, which was the whole plan. Nintendo Wii [sales were] ... down 52% year-over-year. "May 23 20:58
DaemonFCnow that's funnyMay 23 20:58
DaemonFCthat's what happens when you push underpowered hardware with gimmicky softwareMay 23 20:58
DaemonFCsomething from 9 years ago beats the shit out of the Nintendo WiiMay 23 20:59
DaemonFC:)May 23 20:59
DaemonFCMy next system will probably be a MacMay 23 21:00
DaemonFCbut that's probably also years offMay 23 21:00
DaemonFChmmm, I just had a sick ideaMay 23 21:02
DaemonFCI could maybe use 4 gigs on my Zune for a copy of FedoraMay 23 21:02
DaemonFCand the other 4 gigs for musicMay 23 21:02
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schestowitzMS partner is finished: UMPC pioneer gives up the ghost < http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3674419074.html?kc=rss >May 23 21:05
schestowitzShould have gone with LinuxMay 23 21:05
DaemonFCschestowitz: They're advertizing Zune for playing MP3s and AACMay 23 21:05
DaemonFCnot for buying infected WMAsMay 23 21:05
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 21:05
DaemonFChttp://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=zune&x=0&y=0May 23 21:05
DaemonFCobviously trying to focus on anything that can push them, and Zune Pass isn't itMay 23 21:06
Balrog_DaemonFC: zune will play MP3May 23 21:06
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 21:06
Balrog_but zune won't work with alternative softwareMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCit plays MP3, AAC, and Mpeg-4 videoMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCjust like an ipodMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCyeah it doesMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCit'll work on LinuxMay 23 21:06
Balrog_URLMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCwith RhythmboxMay 23 21:06
DaemonFCyou need to load the MTP pluginMay 23 21:06
DaemonFC:)May 23 21:07
DaemonFCthere's also a plugin for Banshee :PMay 23 21:07
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DaemonFCI think Amarok could do it too if it supports MTP devicesMay 23 21:07
Balrog_DaemonFC: no, because it uses extra cryptoMay 23 21:08
DaemonFCthere's also a project to port Linux to the ZuneMay 23 21:08
DaemonFChttp://www.zune-online.com/news/zune/take-the-first-step-linux-on-zune.htmlMay 23 21:08
Balrog_DaemonFC: URL to good info that MTP works on zune?May 23 21:08
Balrog_"There is partial support now which only lists the contents of the Zune player.May 23 21:09
Balrog_"May 23 21:09
DaemonFCapaprently you can also run WinXP in Virtual BoxMay 23 21:09
DaemonFCand load the Zune softwareMay 23 21:09
Balrog_DaemonFC: I refuse to use MS softwareMay 23 21:09
Balrog_that's going too farMay 23 21:09
schestowitzBetter not to feed Apple eitherMay 23 21:10
Balrog_schestowitz: at least the apple products are more interoperableMay 23 21:10
schestowitzHeh.May 23 21:10
schestowitzWhich ones?May 23 21:10
Balrog_<http://marcansoft.com/blog/2009/01/using-amarok-and-other-itunesdb-compatible-software-with-the-iphone-2x/>May 23 21:10
schestowitzThe ones that issue DMCA complaints.takedowns?May 23 21:10
DaemonFCI've used my ipod in RhythmboxMay 23 21:10
DaemonFCit can sync itMay 23 21:10
DaemonFCjust make sure the tags are correctMay 23 21:11
DaemonFCor else you won't like what happensMay 23 21:11
Balrog_all you have to do is modify a key in a system file on the device, and it will use the previous version hashing method, which is not DMCA'dMay 23 21:11
DaemonFC:)May 23 21:11
Balrog_"Edit /System/Library/Lockdown/Checkpoint.xml, find the DBVersion key, and change its value from 4 to 2."May 23 21:11
DaemonFCHint: Incorrect tag = iPod throws it in the Unknown Artist folderMay 23 21:11
DaemonFChmm, Zune supports H.264 as wellMay 23 21:12
DaemonFCinterestinMay 23 21:12
DaemonFC*interestingMay 23 21:12
Balrog_I'd hope more would support theora, but until they have fast CPUs with some vector engine, this won't happenMay 23 21:13
Balrog_(vector engine like SSE or AltiVec)May 23 21:13
Balrog_and the other thing is that non-iphone OS ipods show up at USB mass storage devicesMay 23 21:13
Balrog_Zunes don't do this :/May 23 21:14
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 21:15
DaemonFC4 gig Zune = $60 and 16 gig Sandisk Sansa = $75May 23 21:15
DaemonFC:PMay 23 21:15
Balrog_that's a video Sansa?May 23 21:15
DaemonFCthe Zune is a ripoffMay 23 21:15
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DaemonFCAudio Formats  MP3/WMA/WAV/AACMay 23 21:16
DaemonFCVideo Formats  MPEG4/WMV/H.264May 23 21:16
DaemonFCConnection Type  Proprietary ConnectionMay 23 21:16
Balrog_that's all right ... what resolution?May 23 21:17
DaemonFCCompatible Operating Systems  Windows XPMay 23 21:17
DaemonFC?????May 23 21:17
Balrog_and what other OS?May 23 21:17
DaemonFC2.4" TFTMay 23 21:17
DaemonFC320 x 240May 23 21:17
DaemonFCso it's also got a bigger screenMay 23 21:17
Balrog_iphone/ipod touch is 480x320May 23 21:17
Balrog_a lot betterMay 23 21:17
DaemonFCthe Zune is 1.8"May 23 21:17
DaemonFCwell yeahMay 23 21:17
DaemonFCif you want to be gougedMay 23 21:17
DaemonFCApple has a lot of nice thingsMay 23 21:18
DaemonFC:PMay 23 21:18
Balrog_heh ... regular ipod is 320x240 so it's not too badMay 23 21:18
DaemonFChttp://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883220007May 23 21:19
DaemonFChmmmmMay 23 21:19
schestowitz"Toshiba licenses patents essential for meeting DVD format specifications" http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/303367/toshiba_sues_imation_others_over_dvd_patentsMay 23 21:20
DaemonFCXP is still being shoved into this thin client type devicesMay 23 21:21
DaemonFCthat's pretty funnyMay 23 21:21
Balrog_schestowitz: that was on slashdot not too long agoMay 23 21:21
DaemonFChmmmmMay 23 21:21
DaemonFCso no matter who wins, we lose?May 23 21:21
DaemonFC:DMay 23 21:21
DaemonFCyay!!May 23 21:21
Balrog_yes :(May 23 21:22
DaemonFCToshiba is real big with MicrosoftMay 23 21:22
DaemonFCthey make a pretty good laptop thoughMay 23 21:22
schestowitzPhotos from SugarCamp Paris < http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=sugarcamp&d=taken-20090515- >May 23 21:23
Balrog_DaemonFC: Toshiba laptops are often preloaded with junkMay 23 21:24
DaemonFCso?May 23 21:24
Balrog_I wouldn't buy themMay 23 21:25
DaemonFCI have clean setup discsMay 23 21:25
DaemonFCif they ship with Vista they have an SLP BIOS to begin withMay 23 21:25
DaemonFCall I need is an SLP serial for the edition of Vista I want and an authorization certificateMay 23 21:26
DaemonFCI have bothMay 23 21:26
DaemonFCI can reconfigure the hardware in this system any way I like and never trigger activationMay 23 21:26
DaemonFCretail copies will freak out if you change the configuration so many times within a certain time frameMay 23 21:28
DaemonFCthat happened to my dad when he was replacing his motherboardMay 23 21:29
DaemonFCI took care of it :)May 23 21:29
Balrog_but I DON'T WANT VISTA!!!!May 23 21:29
DaemonFCXP uses SLP tooMay 23 21:29
DaemonFCI've never had to activate WindowsMay 23 21:30
macabeI've never had to activate DebianMay 23 21:30
taconei have to activate debianMay 23 21:31
taconeanyone has any crack ?May 23 21:31
macabeYeah; SIDUXMay 23 21:31
DaemonFCif it detects the authorization it disables the activation system entirelyMay 23 21:31
DaemonFCI have the authorizationMay 23 21:31
taconeplease send the crack to cute.kitty.tacone@hotmail.comMay 23 21:31
trmancololMay 23 21:34
taconehaving an hotmail address should be seen as a form of charity, these days.May 23 21:35
macabecan't access hotmail or live.com, but its @ http://mira.susnsite.utk.edu/sidux/releaseMay 23 21:35
taconemy first email address was an hotmail one. that was before ms acquisitionMay 23 21:35
*DaemonFC has a live.com addressMay 23 21:35
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taconeas for speed, chromium will pwn firefox 3.5May 23 21:35
macabegood luck with the crack!May 23 21:36
*Balrog_ has an msn.com address ;PMay 23 21:36
Balrog_not paying for it .... lolMay 23 21:36
DaemonFCyou winMay 23 21:36
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Balrog_yeah ;)May 23 21:37
Balrog_I don't use it, except for msn chat sometimes (not using messenger of course)May 23 21:37
taconei discovered i can easily break macosx by moving my fingers on the mousepadMay 23 21:38
Balrog_explainMay 23 21:38
tacone4 fingers gestureMay 23 21:39
taconeup and downMay 23 21:39
DaemonFCyou can register your existing email address as your passportMay 23 21:39
Balrog_this is hackintosh? I can try it on a real machineMay 23 21:39
taconedo it fast for 1 minuteMay 23 21:39
taconeit's a macbook aluminiumMay 23 21:39
DaemonFChackintosh....May 23 21:39
Balrog_what breaks?May 23 21:39
Balrog_because I don't see any problem ehreMay 23 21:39
DaemonFCwhat a worthless use of time and effort?May 23 21:39
*_Goblin is now known as goblinMay 23 21:39
Balrog_here *May 23 21:39
taconeif you do it fast, you'll see the expose going on on its ownMay 23 21:40
taconeif you do it fast for a minute, the dock will freezeMay 23 21:40
taconeand the os will be very slow.May 23 21:40
Balrog_hrm, check the system logMay 23 21:40
DaemonFCeven if you get a Hackintosh up and running, you're stuck on that versionMay 23 21:40
Balrog_seems like something is up with your systemMay 23 21:40
Balrog_DaemonFC: not so true anymoreMay 23 21:40
Balrog_(use the Console utility)May 23 21:40
DaemonFCoh?May 23 21:40
taconeBalrog_: i doubt itMay 23 21:40
DaemonFChow so?May 23 21:40
Balrog_well, nothing like that happens hereMay 23 21:40
taconeBalrog_: if you do it fast, will the expose go on on its own for a while ?May 23 21:41
Balrog_DaemonFC: because (a) using clean kernels works much better now, and (b) Mac OS has drivers for many boardsMay 23 21:41
Balrog_for a bit ... you're overloading its bufferMay 23 21:41
taconeyepMay 23 21:41
Balrog_just like when you hold a key for too longMay 23 21:41
taconeoverload it much moreMay 23 21:41
DaemonFCso you can use real Apple updates?May 23 21:41
DaemonFCdoesn't it stil lbrick the system?May 23 21:41
taconeyou can go on until something breaksMay 23 21:41
Balrog_DaemonFC: if you have the right hardware, yesMay 23 21:42
taconei tried the same on compiz, but it's more solid.May 23 21:42
Balrog_hrm, I can't reproduce itMay 23 21:42
DaemonFChmmmmMay 23 21:42
taconeyes you canMay 23 21:42
taconeBalrog_: as i told you. you have to do it for a minute or so. not easy.May 23 21:42
DaemonFCI have Core 2 Duo on a G33 motherboardMay 23 21:43
DaemonFCI suppose it would workMay 23 21:43
DaemonFCbut doubt it would see my TV cardMay 23 21:43
taconeit requires significant effort. it's not really a problem, noone will do it so fast for so much timeMay 23 21:43
DaemonFClesbiansMay 23 21:43
DaemonFCmaybeMay 23 21:43
Balrog_true. any connected log entries?May 23 21:43
DaemonFCsorry, had toMay 23 21:43
Balrog_DaemonFC: what tv card?May 23 21:43
taconelet me seeMay 23 21:43
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DaemonFCAverMedia M780May 23 21:43
schestowitzGentoo is dangerous for children < http://www.hboeck.de/archives/705-Gentoo-is-dangerous-for-children.html >May 23 21:44
Balrog_hard to say ... if it's a common chip it may work .... more likely notMay 23 21:44
taconecould be May 23 22:16:33 tacone-macbook com.apple.launchd[80] ([0x0-0x3bb3bb].com.apple.systemuiserver[10475]): Exited abnormally: Bus errorMay 23 21:45
DaemonFCyeah, I doubt it willMay 23 21:45
DaemonFCLinux won't see itMay 23 21:45
DaemonFCwell, it can tell me it's thereMay 23 21:45
DaemonFCthat's about itMay 23 21:45
taconeor maybe notMay 23 21:45
taconedunnoMay 23 21:45
Balrog_meh, probably that isMay 23 21:45
Balrog_you have 10.5.7 right?May 23 21:46
tacone.6May 23 21:46
taconei didn't have the chance to upgrade yet.May 23 21:46
Balrog_upgrade. 10.5.7 has over a hundred bugfixes, though apple doesn't tell you thatMay 23 21:46
taconebut if you can reproduce the overload then you can almost surely break it.May 23 21:46
taconeBalrog_: i know it's full of fixesMay 23 21:46
taconei repeat you, you have to do it for a while. it's not a real issueMay 23 21:47
Balrog_ok.May 23 21:47
DaemonFChttp://www.avermedia-usa.com/AVerTV/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=24May 23 21:47
taconei was just trying to see how long could I make expose go on its ownMay 23 21:47
DaemonFCCertified for Windows VistaMay 23 21:47
DaemonFC:)May 23 21:47
taconeit makes for a good joke on friends notebooksMay 23 21:47
DaemonFCwon't do shit in LinuxMay 23 21:47
DaemonFCworks in XP too with Vista driversMay 23 21:48
schestowitzLancelot that will be shipping with KDE 4.3: http://ivan.fomentgroup.org/blog/2009/05/22/lancelot-17-whats-new/May 23 21:51
DaemonFCthis review sums up my TV cardMay 23 21:55
DaemonFCAbsolutely no Linux support. Good hardware... but useless...May 23 21:55
DaemonFC:PMay 23 21:55
DaemonFCthat's an expensive device tooMay 23 21:56
DaemonFCprobably would have got a video card with one, but ATI/AMD is the only one that makes thoseMay 23 21:57
DaemonFCand ewwwwMay 23 21:57
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Just to test what Vista does with high definition video that has no content protection token, I took a rip of Aliens from a BD-ROMMay 23 21:59
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DaemonFCand dumped it into MPEG-2May 23 21:59
DaemonFCand played itMay 23 21:59
DaemonFCover DVI with speakers hooked up to SPDIFMay 23 22:00
DaemonFCplayed fineMay 23 22:00
Balrog_DaemonFC: do Hauppauge TV cards work with linux?May 23 22:00
DaemonFCI doubt it would affect a home video unless you used a constraint token yourself *shrug*May 23 22:01
DaemonFCBalrog_: I did spend about 30 minutes researching what ones work with LinuxMay 23 22:01
DaemonFCthe most "guaranteed" way I found involved buying an AverMedia USB dongleMay 23 22:01
DaemonFCand using their proprietary kernel driverMay 23 22:01
Balrog_argh :(May 23 22:02
Balrog_<http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Video_capture_card>May 23 22:02
DaemonFCit looks like Linux just doesn't have all that much support for these things and nobody writes down an updated list of ones that are known to workMay 23 22:02
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 22:02
Balrog_well, look at that pageMay 23 22:03
DaemonFCI googled through about 20 pagesMay 23 22:03
Balrog_more is supported that appearsMay 23 22:03
Balrog_http://ivtvdriver.org/index.php/Main_PageMay 23 22:03
Balrog_<http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Supported_Hardware>May 23 22:03
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DaemonFCthat one isn't really a listMay 23 22:04
Balrog_it gives info for searchingMay 23 22:04
DaemonFCthis Avermedia M179 is older than the one I have and discontinued :(May 23 22:05
DaemonFCthe one I have is really niceMay 23 22:06
DaemonFChardware on the chip for everythingMay 23 22:06
DaemonFCdoesn't leech off the systemMay 23 22:06
Balrog_HDTV decoding doesn't need hardware on the chipMay 23 22:07
DaemonFCone of those things I never used and then when I tried it out, I needed it all of a suddenMay 23 22:09
DaemonFC:PMay 23 22:09
DaemonFCNote: Hauppauge is no longer shipping any analog only (PVR) cards due to pressure from FCC.May 23 22:12
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 22:12
DaemonFCniceMay 23 22:12
DaemonFCthose things were dirt cheap tooMay 23 22:12
Balrog_good.May 23 22:20
Balrog_analog-only will soon be uselessMay 23 22:20
Balrog_in the USMay 23 22:20
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*DaemonFC_ is now known as DaemonFCMay 23 22:25
DaemonFCwell that was funMay 23 22:26
schestowitzWhere is tessier today...?May 23 22:26
DaemonFChttp://www.amazon.com/Harman-SoundSticks-II-Multimedia-Speaker/dp/B0001DBEM4/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1243114927&sr=8-11May 23 22:28
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 22:28
DaemonFCthose look niceMay 23 22:28
DaemonFCloan me $100?May 23 22:28
DaemonFCI think I saw them cheaper at Walmart though :PMay 23 22:29
macabeThey look, well, different, but how do they sound? Especially that whiskey jug in the middle.May 23 22:32
DaemonFClmaoMay 23 22:33
DaemonFCI found out that MS keyboards and mice are actually rebranded LogitechMay 23 22:34
DaemonFCbut sold a few $'s cheaperMay 23 22:34
DaemonFChmmm, then we have some Bose speakersMay 23 22:35
DaemonFCNo highs, no lows, it must be BoseMay 23 22:35
DaemonFC:PMay 23 22:35
DaemonFCI got one of their Wave Radios at a garage sale for like $20May 23 22:36
DaemonFCpractically newMay 23 22:36
DaemonFCit's alright but nothing worth $300May 23 22:36
DaemonFCnot even closeMay 23 22:36
DaemonFCI've redone certain bits in some of my music collection with the help of REAPERMay 23 22:38
DaemonFCit basically defaults to either WAV or FLAC when you go to save the project, which is niceMay 23 22:38
DaemonFCthe last thing the world needs is another "professional" audio editor that insists upon WMA Lossless or Apple LosslessMay 23 22:39
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macabeBeen ripping my old Telarc vinyl discs direct to image. Bought them back in the early 80s and don't want to lose them.May 23 22:46
DaemonFCwell, FLAC can be ripped with a CUE fileMay 23 22:47
DaemonFCso they can go right back to an identical CD copy with any image burning CD recording programMay 23 22:48
DaemonFCthere's a lot of Microsoft FUD spreaders trying to proliferate WMA LosslessMay 23 22:48
DaemonFCbut it's already lostMay 23 22:48
DaemonFCeven the Zune won't play WMA LosslessMay 23 22:49
macabeDoes REAPER do FLAC with CUE file?May 23 22:49
DaemonFCbut a number of players support FLACMay 23 22:49
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 22:50
DaemonFCI rip with EACMay 23 22:50
DaemonFCso that's a good questionMay 23 22:50
DaemonFC:PMay 23 22:50
*DaemonFC is odd about his programsMay 23 22:50
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DaemonFCgood lord it's hot in hereMay 23 22:52
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macabeIs seems Reaper is a windows app. Is EAC also the same?May 23 22:56
DaemonFCyeahMay 23 22:59
schestowitzGeorge Carlin - Who really controls America George Carlin - Who really controls AmericaMay 23 23:00
schestowitzOops. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGyObuH3WTY&feature=relatedMay 23 23:00
DaemonFCI'm trying out Monkey's AudioMay 23 23:00
DaemonFCI decompressed one of my FLAC files to WAVMay 23 23:00
DaemonFCto test it onMay 23 23:01
macabeToo bad about reaper but can't see me fire up windows for one app.May 23 23:01
DaemonFCAPE = 69.5 megs, FLAC = 72 megsMay 23 23:02
DaemonFCWAV source was 100 megsMay 23 23:02
DaemonFCmehMay 23 23:02
macabeI'm with Twitter on that... If it ain't FOSS.. It ain't.May 23 23:03
schestowitzIf tessier shows up, couple you tell him what happened? Thanks. gnMay 23 23:04
DaemonFCdamnMay 23 23:05
DaemonFCit takes forever to seekMay 23 23:05
DaemonFChmmmMay 23 23:06
DaemonFCkills VLC tooMay 23 23:06
DaemonFChmmm, switching to normal compression helped thatMay 23 23:08
tessierWebsite is back up.May 23 23:12
tessierhttpd ran it out of memory. I'll set something up so that can't happen.May 23 23:12
tessierI have nagios monitoring the site but it isn't set up to page me. I'll set it up to page me also.May 23 23:13
tessierI have other sites that I need to be paged for anyway.May 23 23:13
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tessierOk, I've made some changes so hopefully it cannot be run out of memory so easily.May 23 23:20
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DaemonFClooks like someone is accusing twitter of being a meat puppetMay 23 23:21
DaemonFCon Slashdot?May 23 23:21
Balrog_tessier: more of these DDIS attacks???May 23 23:21
Balrog_DDOS *May 23 23:21
DaemonFChttp://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377May 23 23:22
DaemonFC"Remember kids, other people are making a mockery of Slashdot. Other people have censored twitter. "May 23 23:22
DaemonFCseems like he's pissed off quite a few people thereMay 23 23:23
DaemonFCand starts shill threadsMay 23 23:23
DaemonFC"In that same thread, the AC posted a Google site search link that brings up just about every IRC log on the blog, just in case someone thinks this is some spur-of-the-moment impersonator. Also linked from there, in this part of one of the logs someone asks twitter if he's the same troll from Slashdot with multiple sockpuppets, and he confirms it in the usual yes but I am justified because I...May 23 23:23
DaemonFC...am being targeted by a massive Microsoft conspiracy fashion. "May 23 23:23
DaemonFCroflMay 23 23:24
DaemonFCBut this account is important because it provides the first piece of actual hard evidence of active sockpuppetry outside of the admittedly circumstantial shilling activity and style similarities presented here. twitter has apparently joined forces with a guy that runs a rather badly designed anti-Microsoft blog (that's a fresh idea). Someone on here (predictably) figured out that the owner...May 23 23:24
DaemonFC...of those blogs runs an IRC channel on freenode, whose logs are archived daily on the blog itself. Being the smart cookie that he is, twitter obviously never realized this. In this thread, an AC posted links and quotes from the chat log that are reproduced here in bash.org format for maximum comedic value:May 23 23:24
DaemonFC<twitter> I'm back.May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> Want to see a nice piece of net stalking?May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<schestowitz> Yes, definitely. I want o document such phenomena too.May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> This one is personal and not one I'd like to call attention to.May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> my trolls on Slashdot like to out me as BRLUG member Will Hill. That's not something I will confirm or deny.May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> They also identify my accounts on the first few posts. They got my GNUChop today and replied to it by cut and pasting a brlug comment.May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> compare http://mail.brlug.net/pipermail/general_brlug.net/2008-August/018582.htmlMay 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> to http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=647417&cid=24621437May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> Nasty, isn't it?May 23 23:25
DaemonFC<twitter> If what they say is true they can only know it by monitoring all of my traffic.May 23 23:25
DaemonFCtwitter the meatpuppet!May 23 23:26
tessierNot sure exactly what happened. Somehow it ran out of memory. Looks like maybe mysql died first.May 23 23:27
tessierIt's fixed anyway. Each time they try something I'll just fix whatever it is and let them try again. Problem solved for now.May 23 23:27
DaemonFCtwitter has made 16 accounts on SlashdotMay 23 23:27
DaemonFCthat they know ofMay 23 23:27
DaemonFCjust to use for sockpuppetryMay 23 23:27
schestowitztessier: !May 23 23:29
schestowitzYayaMay 23 23:29
schestowitzYaya*yayMay 23 23:29
DaemonFC"he following is the complete list of  twitter  sockpuppets...This person currently has sixteen known accounts on Slashdot, most of which are actively used to shill his own posts to game the moderation system. His reputation has now transcended Slashdot and he's become pretty much the running joke around here. ...mostly bringing everyone else on Slashdot down by association, including honest...May 23 23:29
DaemonFC...FOSS advocates who usually don't want anything to do with him or his lies, extremism and paranoia. Not content to disrupt and pollute Slashdot, our dear troll has now devolved into the role of a serial stalker, to boot."May 23 23:29
DaemonFClmfaoMay 23 23:31
DaemonFCtwitter is pretty funnyMay 23 23:31
DaemonFCI thought I had too much free timeMay 23 23:31
DaemonFCTwitter: How's those 16 voices in your head doing buddy? Their name wouldn't be Legion would it?May 23 23:32
DaemonFC:)May 23 23:32
macabeIf he has too much time on his hands, what does that say about his /. followers?May 23 23:34
DaemonFCOK, I removed Twitter's comments on my blog including the sockpuppetsMay 23 23:37
DaemonFCand sent them to the spam pitMay 23 23:38
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MinceRnow you really showed himMay 23 23:43
schestowitztessier: thanks.May 23 23:43
macabeDaemonFC: Have you considered bypassing a new toy and using the fund for said toy to become an associate member of FSF.org?May 23 23:46
DaemonFC?May 23 23:46
macabeAdvocacy through people who have the experience in that.May 23 23:47
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ushimitsudokiJust got done with updating Ubuntu to the latest release. Not too bad so far.May 23 23:48
taconeushimitsudoki: pretty stableMay 23 23:50
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DaemonFCschestowitz: I notice that Tiger Direct is giving away copies of Vista UltimateMay 23 23:52
DaemonFCjust to get rid of themMay 23 23:52
DaemonFCthey throw them in for free with hardwareMay 23 23:52
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MinceRgnome+compiz and kde4 are both utter pain to useMay 23 23:57
MinceRi guess i'll have to install debian and go back to kde3May 23 23:57
DaemonFChehMay 23 23:57
MinceRcompiz keeps crashing xMay 23 23:57
DaemonFCit does that you know?May 23 23:57
MinceRkde4 plasma eats cpu like a fat kid in a candy factoryMay 23 23:57
DaemonFCit does that you know?May 23 23:58
DaemonFC:)May 23 23:58
MinceRi guess kde3 just worked too well, it had to be swept under the rugMay 23 23:58
taconei don't have compiz crashesMay 23 23:58
DaemonFCthey do that you know?May 23 23:58
DaemonFCMeh, it just depends, they slap things together and call it a release with some distrosMay 23 23:59
DaemonFCand maybe it works and maybe it doesn'tMay 23 23:59
DaemonFCand maybe they don't give a shit cause it works for most peopleMay 23 23:59
DaemonFCand you aren't one of themMay 23 23:59
DaemonFCyou'd really think computer hardware and software would be more predictableMay 23 23:59
DaemonFCby nowMay 23 23:59

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