IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 14th, 2009

*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.14.136.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 14 00:00
DaemonMDVtrying out SkypeJun 14 00:04
DaemonMDVtheir Linux client is actually better than the Windows versionJun 14 00:04
_Mutex_considering the person who developed most of teh VOIP software was a Linux developer would explain whyJun 14 00:05
_Mutex_and a crazy smart guy too.Jun 14 00:06
schestowitz"Therefore, it is not surprising that cigarette smoking is one of the biggest risk factors for developing pancreatic cancer." http://pathology.jhu.edu/pancreas/BasicRisk.phpJun 14 00:07
schestowitzThat's new to me..Jun 14 00:07
schestowitzSo bill hicks dies from smoking directly?Jun 14 00:07
_Mutex_yes, have not heard of that one before , not surprising thoughtJun 14 00:08
maxstirnerpossibly, its always hard/impossible to say with these thingsJun 14 00:08
maxstirneri had heard of that link actuallyJun 14 00:08
ThistleWebthe Windows Skype client has a lot more features, but it was built primarily for Windows, where most users are so it hardly surprises meJun 14 00:08
schestowitzI guess we have more then one death from smoking in our family thenJun 14 00:08
schestowitzThank bernays for "teaching women how to smoke"Jun 14 00:09
maxstirnersorry to hear.. do consider that its always about probabilities, i think it cannot be attributed purely to a single factorJun 14 00:09
schestowitzyes, of courseJun 14 00:09
maxstirnerapart from asbestos i guess ;)Jun 14 00:09
_Mutex_my old school budy Craig Southeren wrote most of the code for windows and Linux VOIP, its the same core, but he's a Linux guy not a MS guy.Jun 14 00:09
schestowitzMany things these day emit radiation tooJun 14 00:09
_Mutex_everything emits it to a degree, everything has a half life, graphits is one of the worst house hold items that radiatJun 14 00:10
_Mutex_eJun 14 00:10
schestowitzYes, sureJun 14 00:10
schestowitzBut some things more than othersJun 14 00:11
schestowitzThose who live next to the hidden cellphone antennas suffer the mostJun 14 00:11
schestowitzJoinTheExperiment{Tm}Jun 14 00:11
maxstirneri picked up an interview with a woman who does preventive cancer science, theres only one department somewhere in california, she built her office without carcinogenics and she said its near impossibleJun 14 00:11
schestowitzA gym I used to go to had such an antenna intstalled in the roofJun 14 00:11
schestowitzI no longer go there.Jun 14 00:11
_Mutex_for sure, you dont want to play inside a smoke detector or a radium watch face eitherJun 14 00:12
maxstirnermost plastics arent tested in any way, rather htey are just presumed safe until you get an asbestos-style cluster, too obvious to ignoreJun 14 00:12
_Mutex_having had cancer (and an agressive one) I can attest to how bad it is.Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_Roy you may know of SCC ?Jun 14 00:12
schestowitzSCC?Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_squiema cell carcinoma ?Jun 14 00:12
schestowitzNew to me..Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_ahh ok,Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_form of skin cancerJun 14 00:13
_Mutex_squamousJun 14 00:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Article:"Pirate Bay – Anti-piracy campaign?" http://bit.ly/yhb5x #tpb #piratebayJun 14 00:15
maxstirnerok i'm off, all the bestJun 14 00:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Human anatomy remains mystery to MPs http://notnews.today.com/?p=520Jun 14 00:20
ThistleWebgotta love them copyright holders, demanding people respect their IP, while at the same time taking the TPB page design for their own siteJun 14 00:25
ThistleWebthey do know how to avoid the hypocrisy labelJun 14 00:26
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_Goblinthe TPB was always free to use and abuse according to the site....Jun 14 00:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] How to move from MS Money to GnuCash: http://is.gd/11akW and get proper double-entry into the bargain: http://is.gd/11amrJun 14 00:30
_Goblin*logoJun 14 00:31
ThistleWebI notice the t-shirts page is a copy of TPB with stuff changedJun 14 00:31
ThistleWebpage layoutJun 14 00:31
ThistleWebthey've done an HTTP copy, changed a few images to their own and used thatJun 14 00:32
_Goblinyeah, Mr Andersons campaign seems to be going down the route of Indiana Greggs and IMO it will end in tears because its badly thought ot.Jun 14 00:32
ThistleWebwe have been watching you for a long time now Mr AndersonJun 14 00:32
ThistleWebor should we call you NeoJun 14 00:32
_GoblinWho would a f*** the pirate bay t-shirt appeal to?Jun 14 00:33
_GoblinI don't think a record label would want to associate...Jun 14 00:33
_Goblinlook what happened to Metallica...Jun 14 00:33
ThistleWebunfortunatly, all the people who are on their side and care bout stuff like that, wear suitsJun 14 00:33
ThistleWebor have their own stage costumesJun 14 00:33
_Goblinwhat interests me more about Mr Anderson is him claim about piracy = loss of jobs and kids taken out of schools....Jun 14 00:34
_Goblinthat must mean he stands against FOSS aswell?Jun 14 00:34
ThistleWebyeah I read thatJun 14 00:34
_Goblinbecause surely people choosing FOSS over proprietary would have the same effect?Jun 14 00:34
_GoblinIve sent him an email, documented on my blog in the article.Jun 14 00:35
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_Goblinand also challenged him with using vulgarity to promote a cause.Jun 14 00:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard nice cheeksJun 14 00:35
DaemonMDVcan GNUCash import Microsoft Money files?Jun 14 00:35
ThistleWebto me, it's one of a number of astroturfing PR attempts by the entertainment industry to try and play the sympathy card, poor rich boardroom members who can't rape their customers to the same degreeJun 14 00:36
_Mutex_it would be if FOSS did not employ people, but it doesJun 14 00:36
_Goblintrue, but not to the extent of proprietaryJun 14 00:36
_Mutex_thats true,Jun 14 00:37
_Goblinand if you consider the amount of business dependent on Windows failing, a FOSS alternative would be harmful to them too.Jun 14 00:37
ThistleWebone response is the continued growth of CC as a licencing modelJun 14 00:37
_Mutex_CC ?Jun 14 00:38
DaemonMDVCreative Commons still has nothing good licensed under itJun 14 00:38
ThistleWebcreative commonsJun 14 00:38
_Mutex_ahh ok,Jun 14 00:38
DaemonMDVor if it does it's a hook to get you to buy stuffJun 14 00:38
_Goblinit does...Jun 14 00:38
_Goblinlet me cite one example:Jun 14 00:38
ThistleWeb"good" is subjectiveJun 14 00:38
ThistleWeband personalJun 14 00:38
ThistleWebMircosoft will tell you Windows is "good"Jun 14 00:39
_GoblinSevered Fifth and their album - Denied by ReignJun 14 00:39
ThistleWebto them, it isJun 14 00:39
_Mutex_which makes evil just as subjective, and personal.Jun 14 00:40
_Mutex_whey do "they" say, "right and wrong only depends on what side your on"Jun 14 00:41
_Mutex_which is closely related to "the winning side gets to make up the rules", (just ask GW Bush). :)Jun 14 00:43
ThistleWebevil has always been subjectiveJun 14 00:45
_Mutex_sure hasJun 14 00:45
ThistleWebpeople and companies have never been evil, although some of their acts areJun 14 00:45
_Mutex_good and evil are in the eye of the beholderJun 14 00:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz "This is another fine mess you've gotten us into!"Jun 14 00:45
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_Mutex_there have certainly been people that MOST consider to be evil, but not that many, they were bad thoughJun 14 00:46
DaemonMDVWindows is good from the sense that it's a common development platformJun 14 00:47
DaemonMDVbut that's just a side effectJun 14 00:47
_Mutex_can some companies, like was it exxon who killed all those people on Bopal, or enron turning off power to make more money, IBM selling computers to the Nazi's to collate and count the jews is a bit iffyJun 14 00:47
DaemonMDVthat would be Union CarbideJun 14 00:48
DaemonMDVnow Dow ChemicalJun 14 00:48
_Mutex_yes, thanks :)Jun 14 00:48
_Mutex_ahh okJun 14 00:48
DaemonMDVIBM had a business branch in Germany dating back before the warJun 14 00:49
DaemonMDVthe Nazis seized itJun 14 00:49
schestowitzgnJun 14 00:49
DaemonMDVit was not really part of IBMJun 14 00:49
DaemonMDVat that pointJun 14 00:49
DaemonMDVit was "Give us what we want or YOU get a bullet in the back of the head"Jun 14 00:49
_Mutex_they also had offices in the US for it, according to history, and provided consultants !Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDVthe Nazis seized the business, there's nothing that IBM in the US could do about thatJun 14 00:50
DaemonMDVit's not like they were profiteering off itJun 14 00:50
DaemonMDVor willing accomplicesJun 14 00:50
DaemonMDVat the point that the Nazis seized it, it was no longer part of IBMJun 14 00:51
ThistleWeba lot of companies allied with the Nazis before they reaaly showed their true coloursJun 14 00:52
ThistleWebat the start they capitvated a broken Germany with a new futureJun 14 00:52
DaemonMDVthe Nazis were always going to be bad news, anyone that allied with them at any point knew what they would doJun 14 00:52
ThistleWebfor a few years they were held up as a great thingJun 14 00:52
ThistleWebuntil the nasty underside started to showJun 14 00:52
ThistleWebbusinesses are only ever interested in profitsJun 14 00:53
DaemonMDVunfortunately businesses and governments shake hands with some nasty peopleJun 14 00:53
DaemonMDVthis British National Party sounds a lot like NorsefireJun 14 00:53
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 00:53
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorsefireJun 14 00:54
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_PartyJun 14 00:55
DaemonMDVWikipedia needs updatedJun 14 00:56
DaemonMDVtwo of the British Nazis are in fact elected to their Parliament nowJun 14 00:56
ThistleWebeven the term "british" in the BNP case is a bit of a stretch, they are an English party, standing in English constituencies, campaigning for English ruleJun 14 00:57
DaemonMDVso what the hell is their deal?Jun 14 00:58
DaemonMDVThey criticize America over there cause of Bush, they rejoice that we throw his goons outJun 14 00:58
ThistleWebwhen you're a minority anyway, the least thing you want to do is paint yourself as an even smaller minorityJun 14 00:58
_Mutex_the pope was in the nazi youth group !Jun 14 00:58
DaemonMDVand immediately elect their own fascists?Jun 14 00:59
_Mutex_"The word has gotten out and a lot of people still alive are supplying information that they didn't have the context to understand before," said Robert Wolfe, an expert on Nazi records and former chief of captured German government documents for the U.S. National Archives.Jun 14 00:59
_Mutex_"This is the proof that IBM enabled the Holocaust. The connection to New York is now proven," Wolfe, a former U.S. infantry officer who ran de-Nazification programs during the U.S. occupation of postwar Germany, said in a phone interview.Jun 14 00:59
ThistleWeblets' face it, the Church have a very revisionist veiw of the worldJun 14 00:59
DaemonMDVthere's going to be another holocaust if the UK doesn't get their shit togetherJun 14 01:00
_Mutex_yes they do.Jun 14 01:00
ThistleWebas well as a very "let's stick our heads in the sand" pro-active approach to complaints like sexual abuse of kids by preistsJun 14 01:00
ThistleWebI wonder if the biggest worldwide paedophile network is in fact the churchJun 14 01:00
_Mutex_yes, cant agree moreJun 14 01:00
DaemonMDVthe priests have nothing to worry aboutJun 14 01:00
DaemonMDVthe church will buy off the parents to shut up about itJun 14 01:01
DaemonMDVand move the priest someplace elseJun 14 01:01
DaemonMDVso he can molest more kidsJun 14 01:01
ThistleWebor threaten them with ex-communicate thise who speak outJun 14 01:01
DaemonMDVthere's no brand of religion that I agree withJun 14 01:01
DaemonMDVbut there's no religion more insane than Islam or ChristianityJun 14 01:02
DaemonMDVthey're both tied at first place on that countJun 14 01:02
ThistleWebwith all of that, I always laugh when the Church try to lobby government on "morality" uissuesJun 14 01:02
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DaemonMDVthe Christians always say the Satanists are murdering people in bizarre rituals, yet there are few documented cases of anything like that actually happeningJun 14 01:03
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DaemonMDVbut the Christians can go murder as many as they want toJun 14 01:03
DaemonMDVin broad daylightJun 14 01:03
DaemonMDVand justify themselvesJun 14 01:03
_Mutex_its the Christians who started that with the inquisitions,Jun 14 01:03
DaemonMDVChristianity is the scourge of the Western civilizationJun 14 01:04
DaemonMDVIslam is the scourge of the EastJun 14 01:04
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DaemonMDVthere's only like ~1 million Muslims in the US out of at least 305 million peopleJun 14 01:05
DaemonMDVyet the Christians blame them for everything that goes wrongJun 14 01:05
ThistleWebevery religion that says "there is no other God but me, and anyone who dont believe is to be killed or converted" is a problemJun 14 01:05
DaemonMDVwell, that sums up about 8 out of every 10 people you seeJun 14 01:06
DaemonMDVthough I'm not sure that that many would actually kill for their religion if told toJun 14 01:06
DaemonMDVmaybe half the people you see?Jun 14 01:06
ThistleWebpeople in India convert to Islam because the lower caste system in India has them as the dregs of society, and as Muslims they can at least get a better deal in ordinary lifeJun 14 01:06
DaemonMDVyesJun 14 01:06
DaemonMDVIslam spreads in US prisonsJun 14 01:07
DaemonMDVand in ghettosJun 14 01:07
ThistleWebHindu's lose people because they like to discriminate with a caste systemJun 14 01:07
DaemonMDVit's always been a religion that appeals to hateful/spiteful people who feel oppressedJun 14 01:07
ThistleWebwhen people have nothing in this llife, where the world is against them, it's an easy sell to get them to do what you want in reward for an afterlife of pleasureJun 14 01:08
DaemonMDVI've been approached by Christians, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Muslims, Scientologists, and WiccansJun 14 01:08
ThistleWebthats why strong religious beliefs and poverty often go hand in handJun 14 01:08
DaemonMDVand I told all of them that they're full of shitJun 14 01:08
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 01:08
ThistleWebnow you're bneing stalked by Tom Cruise right?Jun 14 01:09
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 01:09
DaemonMDVthere was a woman from the Ft Wayne Church of Scientology that wanted to do that "personality test" on meJun 14 01:09
DaemonMDVI know all about what they doJun 14 01:09
DaemonMDVI'm forming my own churchJun 14 01:10
DaemonMDVthe Church of Ryantology, it's all about me, and give me all your money bitches!Jun 14 01:10
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 01:10
_Mutex_what you have to do if find some gold tables with a language no one can understand, work out what it says, and base your religion on that, but dont forget to lose the gold tables first :)Jun 14 01:11
ThistleWebI always find it funny when Preists offer advice on sexual relationships, considering they took a vow never to experience itJun 14 01:11
_Mutex_some preistsJun 14 01:12
_Mutex_catholicJun 14 01:12
ThistleWebkids dont count huh?Jun 14 01:12
_Mutex_alter boys for the taking !!Jun 14 01:12
ThistleWeb"we have two different body's of Christ here, one for public ceremonies, one for private prayer meetings"Jun 14 01:13
DaemonMDV_Mutex_: I had the gold tablets with instructions for all humanity to make me their leaderJun 14 01:30
DaemonMDVbut the archangel Gabriel ated itJun 14 01:30
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 01:30
_Mutex_:DJun 14 01:30
_Mutex_I think you need to form a chior !!Jun 14 01:31
_Mutex_mabey a tabinacle oneJun 14 01:31
_Mutex_Deamons Tabinacle chiorJun 14 01:32
DaemonMDVthe one thing that Bill Gates said that disgusted me more than everything else put togetherJun 14 01:32
DaemonMDVwas when he said he agreed with prescription drug patentsJun 14 01:32
DaemonMDVsoftware is one thing, human lives are anotherJun 14 01:33
DaemonMDVand he said he thinks that drug companies should be able to charge $300-$400 a bottle for medicineJun 14 01:33
MinceRDagon Tabernacle Choir? :>Jun 14 01:33
DaemonMDVOwnerNBC Universal (27%)Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDVFox Entertainment Group (27%)Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDVProvidence Equity Partners (19%)Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDVThe Walt Disney Company (27%)Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDVSloganAn evil plot to destroy the world. Enjoy.Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDVfitting sloganJun 14 01:35
_Mutex_ITs costs an incredable amount of money to develop, tests, trial, and have approved by the various bodies, mabey if they knew they would not make a return on that investment they would not botherJun 14 01:35
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HuluJun 14 01:35
_Mutex_refering to drugs, (the good kind, not the fun kind).Jun 14 01:35
DaemonMDVa bottle of AZT (Older AIDS drug) costs 27 cents to makeJun 14 01:36
DaemonMDVthey want $227 a bottleJun 14 01:36
DaemonMDVyou're telling me they're justified?Jun 14 01:36
DaemonMDVit costs more to make the bottle than the pillsJun 14 01:37
_Mutex_but how much to develop, test, get FDA approval, double blind trial and so on, thats where the cost is.Jun 14 01:37
_Mutex_and if they cant recoup that expense they wont make it,Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV1. It's been out for 23 yearsJun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV2. It's not even knewJun 14 01:37
DaemonMDVit WAS a prototype for a failed cancer drugJun 14 01:37
DaemonMDVfrom the 60sJun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV*newJun 14 01:37
_Mutex_23 years its past the patent time now, so its free for use.Jun 14 01:38
DaemonMDVyeah, this is still a problemJun 14 01:38
DaemonMDVwhen the drug makers gang up to price fixJun 14 01:38
_Mutex_patents protect the development for a period of time, to allow the manufacture to recoup and large expense, then it can be a genericJun 14 01:38
DaemonMDVI don't think you follow meJun 14 01:39
DaemonMDVthe generic makers price fixJun 14 01:39
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_Mutex_I think I do,Jun 14 01:39
DaemonMDVso there's still very little competitionJun 14 01:39
_Mutex_thats illegal, its called a cartell, and if you can prove that you can sue them,Jun 14 01:39
DaemonMDVthose drugs cost less to make than a can of sodaJun 14 01:39
_Mutex_cost is in teh development and testing.Jun 14 01:40
DaemonMDVbut they'll let people die before they  give them away or charge a proper amountJun 14 01:40
_Mutex_and approvalJun 14 01:40
DaemonMDVthose have been recoupedJun 14 01:40
_Mutex_and liability for the few adverse affectsJun 14 01:40
DaemonMDVthey have no excuseJun 14 01:40
DaemonMDVit's only the manufacturing cost of 27 centsJun 14 01:40
_Mutex_Do you how much its costs to develop a drug, and how many dont make it after all the expense ?? alotJun 14 01:41
DaemonMDVthey should be tried for criminal actionsJun 14 01:41
ThistleWebdrugs take a LONG time to develop, at great expenseJun 14 01:41
splosionthe mono debate is really heating up now. I'm seeing people blogging on it left right and centre.  anyone else following this?Jun 14 01:41
_Mutex_that would help the world,Jun 14 01:41
DaemonMDVthe willfull murder of every person that died cause they couldn't afford the medicineJun 14 01:41
_Mutex_years to come Splosion its might be refered to the great FOSS implosion !! (I hope not).Jun 14 01:42
DaemonMDVthe drug companies are committing the greatest holocaust everJun 14 01:42
splosionhahJun 14 01:42
DaemonMDVthe worst crime agaisnt humanityJun 14 01:42
DaemonMDVthe CEOs of these companies should be charged with first degree murderJun 14 01:42
DaemonMDVevery time someone dies cause they didn't have access to medicineJun 14 01:42
_Mutex_You might want to do some research on how AIDS was given to humans, when you find it out you will see that as a crime against humanity.Jun 14 01:43
DaemonMDVwell, it got into the US from HaitiansJun 14 01:43
DaemonMDVin the mid 1950sJun 14 01:43
splosionIn the UK, you'd pay about ten dollars (well you'd pay it in pounds but yes) for a three-monthly subscription of AIDS drugs. It's a good systemJun 14 01:43
_Mutex_yes but how did it get onto the haitians do you know ?? (I do).Jun 14 01:44
DaemonMDVthe first confirmed death post-mortem examination of a 15 year old who died in Missouri in 1959Jun 14 01:44
Ngsplosion: that's largely because we have a fixed price for any prescriptionJun 14 01:44
_Mutex_same in AusJun 14 01:44
splosionNg: yeah. You'd pay the same for a cough remedyJun 14 01:44
Ngthe reality of course is that we are all paying for the rest of the cost of the drugs, but it's shared around via taxation :)Jun 14 01:45
DaemonMDVI really have to say that I hope anyone who defends those criminals gets heart disease or cancerJun 14 01:45
DaemonMDVand loses their insuranceJun 14 01:45
_Mutex_yes, but how did the HIV virus get introducted to humans ?? (and i do know yes).Jun 14 01:45
DaemonMDVgreen monkeyJun 14 01:46
DaemonMDVAfrican tribes having sec with green monkeysJun 14 01:46
DaemonMDV*sexJun 14 01:46
_Mutex_you dont wish those things on people, (well I dont) and ive had cancer, nearly killed me, so im glad for those drugs regardless of the cost,Jun 14 01:47
_Mutex_No not sex , sex is how it spread between humans its not how it got into the human population.Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDVI don't careJun 14 01:47
DaemonMDVanyone who defends those people deserves to sufferJun 14 01:47
DaemonMDVunder the same heavy handed bullshit they defendJun 14 01:47
_Mutex_thanks,, lets hope you dont get cancer,Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDVif I do, I doJun 14 01:48
DaemonMDVI never said that the people that deserve what they get, get itJun 14 01:48
DaemonMDVthat's what religion is forJun 14 01:48
DaemonMDVto make you think these sons of bitches are going to be judgedJun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDVreligion appeals to the part of us that knows what those people do is wrongJun 14 01:49
DaemonMDVand that they'll never be punished in this lifeJun 14 01:49
_Mutex_well im not going to argue with you at all about how cancer can be good for anyone and anytime, but each to their own.Jun 14 01:50
DaemonMDVit helps suppress the people that are being fucked overJun 14 01:50
DaemonMDVcause they think their suffering will be reqardedJun 14 01:50
DaemonMDV*rewardedJun 14 01:50
DaemonMDVand that the drug company CEOs will burn in hellJun 14 01:50
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DaemonMDVif only it was that simpleJun 14 01:51
DaemonMDVcorporations spread Christianity because it helps them get away with crimesJun 14 01:51
DaemonMDVgovernments spread Christianity cause it helps them get away with crimesJun 14 01:52
splosionThe Cubans used to buy some of their pharmaceuticals from a Canadian company. That company was bought out by an American one and then due to the embargo trade stopped. The Cubans decided to fabricate the drugs themselves. The American company complained to the US Government, who then went and bombed the factory (they said it was for heroin to justify it).Jun 14 01:52
DaemonMDVit's why atheistic totalitarian states usually fail at a higher rateJun 14 01:52
DaemonMDVthan religious totalitarian statesJun 14 01:53
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DaemonMDVthe US government has a vested interest in keeping the Christians aroundJun 14 01:53
_Mutex_ive never heard that USA has bombed cuba when ?Jun 14 01:53
DaemonMDVelse people will become apathetic and "unpatriotic"Jun 14 01:54
splosionso you're saying that religion has been used to control people for a very long time? Really? I had no idea!Jun 14 01:54
_Mutex_LOLJun 14 01:54
DaemonMDVyeah, thousands of yearsJun 14 01:54
DaemonMDVit'll keep people enslaved for thousands more years after I am deadJun 14 01:55
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 01:55
splosion_Mutex_: I can't remember the reference. But yes, they have done some covert stuff in Cuba before. I'll try and find the evidence some time. :)Jun 14 01:55
_Mutex_and when your looking down from heaven and laughing ??Jun 14 01:55
_Mutex_Was it clint eastwood ?Jun 14 01:56
_Mutex_heartbreak hill ?Jun 14 01:56
Ng_Mutex_: DaemonMDV wished cancer and heart disease on other people, what makes you think heaven is going to be his/her destination? ;)Jun 14 01:56
DaemonMDVthere's no such thingJun 14 01:56
DaemonMDVso fuck if I careJun 14 01:56
_Mutex_well something starting with H im sure :)Jun 14 01:56
_Mutex_I really liked homers confession to the cathloc priest, "ive mastabated 2 billion times in my live and I have no intension of stoping"Jun 14 01:57
_Mutex_Homer Simpson that isJun 14 01:57
_Mutex_not the philosphiserJun 14 01:58
_Mutex_was "bay of pigs" cuba ?Jun 14 01:58
ThistleWeb_Mutex_: yesJun 14 01:58
_Mutex_ok,Jun 14 01:59
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_Mutex_see i know things, ... and stuffJun 14 02:00
ThistleWebCuba was a vacation spot for the US elite (gangsters / politicians / actors / singers etc) to all hobnob together away from the public news scrutiny before Castro took over and took Cuba's interests backJun 14 02:00
neighborleeas always, its what you do what it that countsJun 14 02:00
ThistleWebwhich was a large part of the reason it was suddenly sold as a pariah nation to the US peopleJun 14 02:01
_Mutex_Neighborlee it SURE is,  (and if only I could spel) :)Jun 14 02:01
neighborlee_Mutex_, not being able to spellis hardly a sinnJun 14 02:01
neighborleeor sin if you'd ratherJun 14 02:02
_Mutex_LOL but did you get sent to the headmaster at school because you could not spell "GIRL" (or is it gerl)Jun 14 02:02
neighborleeare you sayng you did..< not here>Jun 14 02:03
_Mutex_yep,Jun 14 02:03
neighborleelovelyJun 14 02:03
neighborleestrict-Jun 14 02:03
_Mutex_he just laughed,Jun 14 02:04
neighborleeSo then you are acquainted with oppression ;0Jun 14 02:04
_Mutex_yes, I have many acquaintencesJun 14 02:05
_Mutex_10 years in the military was quite oppressing as wellJun 14 02:11
_Mutex_at least it taught me how to kill people it 20 different ways, (nothing like variety)Jun 14 02:12
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_Mutex_so where is the hot spots for the mono debate ??Jun 14 02:14
splosionLinux TodayJun 14 02:14
splosionlots of stuff aggregated thereJun 14 02:14
_Mutex_ahhok, Carla's turf.Jun 14 02:14
splosionof courseJun 14 02:16
splosionJo's defence of Mono sparked a lot of it off. But it's been brewing for a while nowJun 14 02:16
splosionit's going into debian main and stuff. people complaining, arguing, etcJun 14 02:18
_Mutex_yes, its all very messy, I dont think it needs to be.  but it is what it is I guess.Jun 14 02:19
splosionayeJun 14 02:19
neighborleehttp://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2009061102135OSCY < it could change at anytime, but so far no takersJun 14 02:32
neighborlee"" Write it up, plain text with simple HTML tags for paragraph and line breaks, and email it to me at cschroder@internet.com and I will publish it as soon as I receive it. ""Jun 14 02:33
splosionneighborlee: Jo Shields already responded to that. Carla posted it upJun 14 02:33
neighborleeI think that a calm presentation of why Mono is desirable, why it is not a threat, and why it should be included in Ubuntu by default would be beneficial. < on thisJun 14 02:33
neighborleesplosion, odd its not linked thereJun 14 02:34
neighborleeok just not updatedJun 14 02:34
splosionhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-12-010-35-OS-CY-DV << hereJun 14 02:34
neighborleeyesJun 14 02:35
neighborleedoesn't speakfor ubuntu..absurdJun 14 02:35
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")Jun 14 02:35
neighborleeand such a shame.Jun 14 02:35
neighborlee:)Jun 14 02:35
*DaemonXP (n=Ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 14 02:37
DaemonXP"Oh yes, but when the Ubuntu Beta train breaks down, the pirates don't EAT the touristsJun 14 02:38
DaemonXP:PJun 14 02:38
neighborleeI remember seeing him on debian ML posts..and rejected due to the RISK....Jun 14 02:38
*DaemonXP is downloading a daily build of Karmic Koala :PJun 14 02:38
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neighborleefreedom is a wonderful thing ;)Jun 14 02:39
DaemonXPdaily builds can be evil, wicked thingsJun 14 02:39
DaemonXPsometimes it's not even in an installable stateJun 14 02:39
neighborleeYou see someone that is serious about debate, never incluces such sillyness such as , im well aware of threats and personal attacks yadda..absolute nonsenseJun 14 02:40
_Mutex_My major issue with this whole thing is that people in the free software community are (quite ignorantly) spreading FUD against Mono. The loudest of them come from the cult of Roy Schestowitz, who is single-handedly the largest generator of FUD I've seen in a long time.Jun 14 02:41
neighborleethats not debate its deliberately trying to inflameJun 14 02:41
_Mutex_http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-11-021-35-OS-CY-0001Jun 14 02:41
fewa_Mutex_, go spread your hate somewhere elseJun 14 02:41
_Mutex_not my words pleaseJun 14 02:41
_Mutex_follow the linkJun 14 02:41
neighborlee_Mutex_, yes, it is hateJun 14 02:41
neighborleeanytime you say 'ignorant' , and 'fud' , your not better than Jo, and you know it.Jun 14 02:42
_Mutex_yes it is, so im glad its not from meJun 14 02:42
neighborlee_Mutex_, welcome to the underhanded nature of life..I hope you enjoy your stay ;)(Jun 14 02:42
_Mutex_except I did not say it, I posted that here to keep those here informed about that is being said about BN PLEASEJun 14 02:42
splosionhahaJun 14 02:42
DaemonXPapaprently GRUB 2 is the default for Ubuntu 9.10Jun 14 02:42
DaemonXPthat's the biggest thing that's landed so farJun 14 02:43
_Mutex_all you can keep uninformed and live in ignorant bliss its up to youJun 14 02:43
splosionI heard a few people were looking into making a C# implementation without Mono at all. Somehow get it working with gcc. That might be a good route to go downJun 14 02:43
fewaDaemonXP, woahJun 14 02:43
fewareally ?Jun 14 02:43
DaemonXPfrom what I can gatherJun 14 02:43
fewalink?Jun 14 02:43
DaemonXPUbuntu development branch is funJun 14 02:43
DaemonXPsometimes you get new stuf to play withJun 14 02:44
splosiongrub 2? is it pretty? prettier than LILO?Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXPsometimes it's a borked systemJun 14 02:44
DaemonXPhttp://news.softpedia.com/news/GRUB-2-The-New-Boot-Loader-in-Ubuntu-9-10-113671.shtmlJun 14 02:44
_Mutex_its GPL you can do whatever you damn well like with it, according to the GPL, but as long as you moditiy if yyou to provide your mods, as per the GPL,Jun 14 02:44
_Mutex_Its YOUR freedom.Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXPwhen on the development branch, remember to use aptitude safe-upgrade for your package upgradesJun 14 02:44
DaemonXPor else you might get broken dependenciesJun 14 02:45
DaemonXP:)Jun 14 02:45
neighborlee_Mutex_, the military huh ,,dont they teach honor and integrity ?<hmmm>Jun 14 02:45
_Mutex_No that just comes naturally :)Jun 14 02:45
DaemonXPsafe-upgrade won't pull in anything that depends on something that's not in the repository yetJun 14 02:45
_Mutex_not forgetting truth , justice and the Australian way.Jun 14 02:45
_Mutex_mateJun 14 02:45
*TLinton_ (n=TLinton_@ip98-165-108-220.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 14 02:46
DaemonXPinternet censorship, ignorant rednecks, and John HowardJun 14 02:46
DaemonXPwhat could possibly go wrong?Jun 14 02:46
_Mutex_we dont have rednecks here in AusJun 14 02:46
_Mutex_or Johnie as PM, we kicked him awile ago, fyiJun 14 02:47
fewathat will be the first, even fedora wont do thatJun 14 02:47
_Mutex_or internet censorship (yet).Jun 14 02:47
fewacould be a step forward or a screwupJun 14 02:48
DaemonXPhow long is Ubuntu going to keep staying on Wine 1.01?Jun 14 02:48
DaemonXPshitJun 14 02:48
fewathats not ubuntu's goalJun 14 02:49
DaemonXPyeah, you need to go grab it from Wine HQJun 14 02:49
fewathere is a easy repoJun 14 02:50
TLinton_this bird's eye view thing in bing maps is really coolJun 14 02:50
fewawine 1.0 was a stable releaseJun 14 02:50
TLinton_not as useful as google street thingJun 14 02:50
fewathats why people stay with itJun 14 02:50
TLinton_but coolJun 14 02:50
DaemonXPthey're getting rid of HALJun 14 02:50
DaemonXPthank godJun 14 02:50
TLinton_check out the imperial palace in tokyo if you're boredJun 14 02:50
fewalink?Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_very niceJun 14 02:50
TLinton_there's a link to it on the wikipedia articleJun 14 02:50
_Mutex_flight ticket ??Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_hahaJun 14 02:50
DaemonXPmoving its responsibilities over to Device Kit and udevJun 14 02:51
DaemonXPhttp://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2Jun 14 02:51
DaemonXPwell, if all this stuff goes well, they should have a pretty good system by release dateJun 14 02:51
DaemonXPI'm surprised that Fedora is hesitating with all this stuffJun 14 02:52
DaemonXPthey usually just throw it in and let whatever happens happen :PJun 14 02:52
TLinton_wow, tokyo is HUGEJun 14 02:52
TLinton_GYNORMOUSJun 14 02:52
DaemonXPGNOME is ditching a bunch of horrible legacy crapJun 14 02:53
DaemonXPwhich will be sorted out by 2.28Jun 14 02:53
DaemonXPone of those things is XulRunnerJun 14 02:54
TLinton_xul sucksJun 14 02:54
TLinton_slowest thing ever conceivedJun 14 02:54
DaemonXPthey want to make it to where distros can use Webkit to render their documentationJun 14 02:54
DaemonXPand Epiphany will use Webkit nativelyJun 14 02:54
DaemonXPyesJun 14 02:54
DaemonXPWebkit will definitely help with resource useJun 14 02:54
DaemonXPdeprecating Bonobo to migrte to dbusJun 14 02:55
DaemonXPI love how GNOME jsut makes all this changes span through a few releasesJun 14 02:55
DaemonXPso it's always under contruction but users never have to knowJun 14 02:55
DaemonXPKDE just goes years and years and dumpes a few years worth of progress on users in one gigantic chunkJun 14 02:56
fewaDaemonXP, i still cant find the link, could you perhaps be referring to the closed COI notice board discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#hAl_Microsoft_Topic_BanJun 14 02:56
fewa??Jun 14 02:56
DaemonXPwith none of it having been properly testedJun 14 02:56
DaemonXP*dumpsJun 14 02:56
DaemonXPwhat about it?Jun 14 02:57
splosionWhen I used Sid, the latest greatest Gnome builds always seemed completely borkedJun 14 02:57
DaemonXPa company paying people to asroturf Wikipedia?Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXPthats new..... :PJun 14 02:57
DaemonXPhardlyJun 14 02:57
fewayou just said he was going to be bannedJun 14 02:57
fewa<DaemonXP> they're getting rid of HALJun 14 02:57
DaemonXPnoJun 14 02:57
DaemonXPHarware Abstraction LayerJun 14 02:57
fewaohhhhh HardwareJun 14 02:57
DaemonXP:PJun 14 02:57
fewa...Jun 14 02:57
splosionhahahahaJun 14 02:57
fewalolJun 14 02:57
DaemonXP*HardwareJun 14 02:57
fewaROFLJun 14 02:58
_Mutex_anyone who trusts wiki, as being anything but someone opinion needs to learn how to study.Jun 14 02:58
_Mutex_and they need to know what wikepedia actually IS.Jun 14 02:58
fewa_Mutex_, that applies to all published textJun 14 02:58
fewa_Mutex_, and all human opinionJun 14 02:58
DaemonXPWikis are like the damndest thing, because even though Wikipedia is typically full of shitJun 14 02:58
DaemonXPWikis let you throw together a documentation site easilyJun 14 02:59
TLinton_agreedJun 14 02:59
splosionthe true test of a geek. To laugh when someone mistakes hardware abstraction layer with a wikipedia user. I lolled. :)Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_we use docuwikiJun 14 02:59
TLinton_it's wonderful for that, especiallyJun 14 02:59
TLinton_more than mediawikiJun 14 02:59
_Mutex_well most definitive texts, especially scientific texts undergo a "peer review" to ensure accuracy, thats the differeceJun 14 02:59
TLinton_no they don'tJun 14 02:59
TLinton_on wikipedia??Jun 14 02:59
DaemonXPI've been interested in a distribution called Foresight Linux for a while actuallyJun 14 02:59
fewa_Mutex_, not to ensure accuracyJun 14 02:59
splosionI can't wait for Wave to hit us. I can imagine Wavewikis being awesome.Jun 14 02:59
DaemonXPspeaking of GNOMEJun 14 02:59
TLinton_oh, NOT on wikipediaJun 14 02:59
TLinton_i get itJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPbut it doesn't have a huge followingJun 14 03:00
_Mutex_no they dont on wikepedia yes,Jun 14 03:00
fewa_Mutex_, only plausibilityJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPso things are sometimes not packagedJun 14 03:00
TLinton_yep :)Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXPhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foresight_LinuxJun 14 03:00
fewaso whos getting rid of HALJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPI tried it out on my older Athlon64 systemJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPit's fairly fastJun 14 03:00
_Mutex_no also for accuracy, otherwise you wont get "published".Jun 14 03:00
fewaand what are they replacing it with?Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXPfewa: Ubuntu isJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPthey say device kit and udevJun 14 03:00
DaemonXPdevicekit is from FedoraJun 14 03:01
DaemonXPbeen in Fedora since F9 I believeJun 14 03:01
fewastandardization is goodJun 14 03:01
fewaesp with hardware interfacesJun 14 03:01
DaemonXPyeah, shedding the old stuff that never worked quite rightJun 14 03:01
_Mutex_wikipedia is "history by concensisJun 14 03:01
DaemonXPreplacing it with stuff that hopefully willJun 14 03:01
DaemonXPmodularity is kingJun 14 03:01
DaemonXP:)Jun 14 03:01
fewa_Mutex_, what journalstic sources are not thatJun 14 03:02
DaemonXPit's one of the things I really like about Linux is how much stuff can be reusedJun 14 03:02
DaemonXPrather than reimplemented separately in every programJun 14 03:02
DaemonXP(Windows)Jun 14 03:02
fewastandardsJun 14 03:02
fewaamazing thingsJun 14 03:02
DaemonXPless bugs, less bloat, less complicatedJun 14 03:02
_Mutex_Wiki is a psudo encyclopeida, and jurnal and "science" is highly and carefully peer reviewed.Jun 14 03:03
fewayou can run KDE window-manager on gnome, visa-versaJun 14 03:03
DaemonXPif something doesn't work, they can get rid of it without scrapping the whole programJun 14 03:03
fewabecuase of standardsJun 14 03:03
neighborleeMany of those who advertise themselves as anti-Mono are, quite frankly, frightening. Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell) < was there ever a reply about who supposedly was doing this ?Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXPthose types are probably FROM NovellJun 14 03:03
DaemonXPposting thatJun 14 03:03
DaemonXPmakes sense right?Jun 14 03:03
fewayeahJun 14 03:03
DaemonXPmakes the place seem crazier?Jun 14 03:03
fewatrying to portray their oppisition as crazy by pretending to be themJun 14 03:04
neighborleeimagine thatJun 14 03:04
fewajust like the linux shills, that say linux isnt readyJun 14 03:04
splosionI reckon somebody probably made a bad analogy about killing somebody and the trolls jumped on it.Jun 14 03:04
neighborleeno doubtJun 14 03:04
DaemonXPfewa: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXPdocumentation notes thereJun 14 03:05
neighborleeit just shows though what the other side atempts to do..talk about FUD ;)Jun 14 03:05
_Mutex_it was someone posting a comment, how is this site supposed to be responsible for that ? (a. Its not).Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXPsounds good in theoryJun 14 03:05
DaemonXPhttp://www.foresightlinux.org/Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXPthey have a KDE edition somewhere I heardJun 14 03:05
neighborleeJo's 'article' was full of nonsense..lots of childish rants  <poor me>..its clear by the many responses it was obvoius what he was up toJun 14 03:05
neighborleeDaemonXP, I do like their package system though..fedora is going for something similar..if not exactly im not sure how its constructedJun 14 03:06
neighborleeconaryJun 14 03:06
neighborleeor somethingJun 14 03:06
DaemonXPPackagekitJun 14 03:06
DaemonXPKubuntu uses itJun 14 03:06
DaemonXPUbuntu still uses Synaptic thoughJun 14 03:06
neighborleeno i mean what foresight was usingJun 14 03:06
DaemonXP?Jun 14 03:07
neighborleeyes packagekit..buggyJun 14 03:07
DaemonXPoh the diff patches?Jun 14 03:07
neighborleeforesight>conaryJun 14 03:07
neighborleeyesJun 14 03:07
DaemonXPyeah, Delta RPMsJun 14 03:07
neighborleewhat fedora is now doing..or planningJun 14 03:07
neighborleeyesJun 14 03:07
splosionthe main Mono-proponents seem to be the developers in my opinion. Most comments you see from users are either against mono out of principle or they're apathetic "Oh I use tomboy sometimes but I don't see what the fuss is about"Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXPConary patches are smaller and faster to apply thoughJun 14 03:07
neighborleesplosion, agreedJun 14 03:07
DaemonXPRPM just has so much baggageJun 14 03:07
neighborleesplosion, jo as much as admits it LOLJun 14 03:07
DaemonXPneighborlee: Shuttle's KPC uses ForesightJun 14 03:08
DaemonXPthought about buying oneJun 14 03:08
_Mutex_mono is after all a development platformJun 14 03:08
TLinton_whatJun 14 03:08
TLinton_crapJun 14 03:08
_Mutex_if your not a developer its quite uselessJun 14 03:08
TLinton_what's so bad about mono?Jun 14 03:08
_Mutex_IMHO, nothingJun 14 03:09
TLinton_i keep hearing about patentsJun 14 03:09
TLinton_but it's all theoretical as far as i can seeJun 14 03:09
_Mutex_Its just a blob of GPLv2 CodeJun 14 03:09
DaemonXPwell, as long as they don't sue meJun 14 03:09
DaemonXPI don't give a crapJun 14 03:09
TLinton_not like java isn't patent encumbered anyway?Jun 14 03:09
DaemonXPit's not like you don't have optionsJun 14 03:09
TLinton_it's not gplv3, is it?Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_java i meanJun 14 03:09
DaemonXPif they kill off Mono then I'll use Rhythmbox instead of BansheeJun 14 03:09
TLinton_it must be v2Jun 14 03:09
_Mutex_according to the GPL, (and RMS) its not patent encumbered.  (its in the GPL)Jun 14 03:10
TLinton_okJun 14 03:10
_Mutex_yes it is, right along the Linux KernelJun 14 03:10
splosionThe thing that makes me suspicious of mono is the *patent indemnification itself*. If Microsoft gave everybody, not just Novell, *everybody*, an unlimited, eternal covenant not to sue, I'd have ZERO problems with it.Jun 14 03:10
TLinton_ahJun 14 03:10
TLinton_that was what i was asking the other dayJun 14 03:10
neighborleeTLinton_, you dont know about having to download mono from novel ? ;)< and only them>Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_the 'agreement' is only for novell customersJun 14 03:11
TLinton_no, i understand that's the problemJun 14 03:11
neighborleewell ok thenJun 14 03:11
DaemonXPhmmmJun 14 03:11
_Mutex_I cant see how MS or Novell has any control over the code once they tack on the GPL,  this is all about the GPL, which some seem to need a re-read ofJun 14 03:11
DaemonXPapparently GNOME is ditching HALJun 14 03:11
TLinton_i guess it discriminates against other distrosJun 14 03:11
DaemonXPhat's why Ubuntu isJun 14 03:11
TLinton_which is dumb considering it's all free softwareJun 14 03:11
TLinton_technicallyJun 14 03:11
_Mutex_yes it isJun 14 03:11
DaemonXPComplete migration from HAL to DeviceKit-* done. Fedora targets this for Fedora 11. No need for GNOME to track this too, trusting Red Hat here.Jun 14 03:11
neighborleeyupJun 14 03:12
DaemonXPhttp://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_ok, i get itJun 14 03:12
TLinton_why won't microsoft issue a blanket assurance of indemnification then?Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_that would help mono get into all the distrosJun 14 03:12
neighborleepeople have asked...no ecma in sightJun 14 03:12
TLinton_and the whole boycott thing would be mootJun 14 03:12
DaemonXPThey plan to ditch Mozilla Xulrunner by July 27thJun 14 03:12
_Mutex_as far as I can tell, by releasing it under the GPL, by the word of the GPL they haveJun 14 03:12
DaemonXPand transition to Webkit will be completeJun 14 03:13
TLinton__Mutex_:but i guess this website doesn't see it that way?Jun 14 03:13
_Mutex_I guess not,Jun 14 03:13
TLinton_i mean boycottnovellJun 14 03:13
neighborleethey dont want to open it..but if linux uses it well its a rubber stamp of approvalJun 14 03:13
TLinton_it seems stupid to me at leastJun 14 03:13
splosionTLinton_: from an objective viewpoint, Microsoft have no reason not to extend their promise to everybody. Secretly I think it was designed to cause argumentsJun 14 03:13
TLinton_okJun 14 03:14
TLinton_but if their goal is to introduce their technology to the linux environmentsJun 14 03:14
splosionbut that's black helicopter stuff so I don't talk about it :)Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_then wouldn't it be easier to issue the blanket protectionJun 14 03:14
splosionyeah, you'd thinkJun 14 03:14
TLinton_then *everyone* would use monoJun 14 03:14
TLinton_crowds would go wildJun 14 03:14
TLinton_and so onJun 14 03:15
splosionwell yeahJun 14 03:15
TLinton_so it seems that the arguments are incompatibleJun 14 03:15
_Mutex_hang on, isnt the fight about it being incorporated into Ubuntu, last I checked they are not novell !!Jun 14 03:15
TLinton_one, mono is bad because it might be patent encumberedJun 14 03:15
TLinton_two, microsoft *wants* everyone to use mono for nefrious purposesJun 14 03:16
TLinton_*nefariousJun 14 03:16
splosionMicrosoft could play nice. Microsoft funded the Cleverage plugin that allows *really good* ODF compatability in Office. It's even hosted on sourceforge! It even has a BSD licence. They could put it into Office, but instead, their official SP2 is completely broken. Why? They already have the code they need to play nice. Why aren't they using it?Jun 14 03:16
TLinton_but they won't do something as simple as issue a blanket "we won't sue anyone" to get it into linuxJun 14 03:16
TLinton_i mean logically it makes no senseJun 14 03:17
splosionnopeJun 14 03:17
splosionwhich leads to the obvious conclusion: they don't want to interoperateJun 14 03:17
splosionthey want to control their competitorsJun 14 03:17
_Mutex_Stallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use."Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_but they can't control gpl'ed codeJun 14 03:18
neighborleesplosion, same question for mono I guess ,,whoda thunk..bury odf with ooxml,,they have money..shareholders to satisfy..ive seen statement by them saying they have no plans to open .net...not that long ago...so yup you got itJun 14 03:18
splosionwhich should be obvious. If Linux wins, microsoft loses. Microsoft cannot let that happen. They are in the business to make money for their shareholders, and the shareholders demand that they doJun 14 03:18
neighborlee_Mutex_, we have gone over that before..people change.Jun 14 03:18
neighborlee_Mutex_, some people anyway..Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_microsoft has no control over redhatJun 14 03:18
_Mutex_I particularly like the bit "freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that y ou use".Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_anymore than redhat has control over centosJun 14 03:18
TLinton_only their trademarksJun 14 03:19
_Mutex_You think RMS has changed his opinion regarding mono ?Jun 14 03:19
neighborleeI know his stance on itJun 14 03:19
neighborleehe said its 'dangerous' to make apps WITH ITJun 14 03:19
neighborleekeep upJun 14 03:19
neighborlee:)Jun 14 03:19
_Mutex_did he ?? link pleaseJun 14 03:19
neighborleeyes he didJun 14 03:20
neighborleei'd have to look..i don thave it handy sorryJun 14 03:20
_Mutex_http://www.gnu.org/press/2001-07-09-DotGNU-Mono.htmlJun 14 03:20
neighborleemaybe roy does.im sure he prob. does..Jun 14 03:20
_Mutex_ive showed you mine :)Jun 14 03:20
neighborleelol ;)Jun 14 03:20
_Mutex_I used to love that game :DJun 14 03:20
neighborleehttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/richard-stallman-on-mono/Jun 14 03:21
neighborleetop of pageJun 14 03:21
neighborleenote the dateJun 14 03:21
neighborleehttp://fsfe.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html#q1Jun 14 03:22
_Mutex_you left out the MAY be dangerousJun 14 03:22
neighborleeno matter,,he said itJun 14 03:22
neighborleeif he wasn't worried..he would not have said anythingJun 14 03:22
neighborleemono is great says RMS>.please everyone use it..lets go!!<lemmings go nuts>Jun 14 03:22
neighborleetheoretically he said that of course..hey lemmings is a cute game though !Jun 14 03:23
_Mutex_He goes on to say (in teh same paragraph) "Mono is a free implementation of a language that users use. It's good to provide free implementations. We should have free implementations of every language."Jun 14 03:23
neighborleechanges nothing.Jun 14 03:24
neighborleegroklaw still applies..yaddaJun 14 03:24
_Mutex_but fills in the blanks and points more accuractly as to what RMS is trying to conveyJun 14 03:24
neighborleefedora current stance..yaddaJun 14 03:24
neighborleehow much more do you need ;)Jun 14 03:24
_Mutex_I dont need anything more than RMS and the GPL the GPL is a license, Mono like the Linux kernel is one and the same, IMOJun 14 03:25
_Mutex_Much much more that groklaw, pj after all INALJun 14 03:25
_Mutex_and is not the difinitive authority of teh GPL.Jun 14 03:26
neighborleeshe may not be..maybe you want to refer to the lawyer that verified her suspicions ??Jun 14 03:28
_Mutex_LOL oh RMS great for the one liners "But fortunately, no Gods. Instead of Gods, we worship an editor. :Jun 14 03:29
neighborleethere/s a link for that too on the groklaw article if you didn't read it all o_0Jun 14 03:29
neighborlee_Mutex_, you crucify him when its convenient is that it ?Jun 14 03:29
_Mutex_I just thought it was amusing, no and crucify might be construded as a death threat LOLJun 14 03:30
neighborleeoh and Jo is the paragon of virtue ..saying <poor me>about the antimono shills..their horrible death threat and language abuse...remember the f*** words he used not long ago on BN ?Jun 14 03:30
_Mutex_I would not know a Jo if i triped over one, so he virtuosity is of no concern to me. nor is some consulting lawyer for Groklaw, I would rather see the FSF law society comment on it.Jun 14 03:31
_Mutex_or someone who knows the GPL really really well, like mabey the guy who wrote it (whoever that was )Jun 14 03:32
neighborleedoesnt matter if you KNOW him..just that you concede his bitterness and language abuseJun 14 03:32
neighborleewhile playing poor me later to crucify others  convictions ;)Jun 14 03:32
_Mutex_well if I dont know him I cant concede to anything that he has done, as i dont know him, that would be engaging in speculation.Jun 14 03:33
_Mutex_im not big on thatJun 14 03:33
neighborleeyou can read the same articles I canJun 14 03:33
neighborleewhewJun 14 03:33
_Mutex_I know I can,Jun 14 03:33
neighborleeif  you missed a few thats not a problem..we dont all have time I peruse the entirety of the internet I realize <dont I wish>Jun 14 03:34
_Mutex_I have that freedom or I can choose not too, and get my information from more accurate sources,Jun 14 03:34
neighborleebtw I respect militiary though I wish we could get BY without itJun 14 03:34
neighborleemy father was medic in navyJun 14 03:34
neighborleeso...Jun 14 03:34
neighborleejust an asideJun 14 03:34
neighborleea point of some..commonality..humanity..Jun 14 03:35
_Mutex_my dad drove a truck :)Jun 14 03:36
neighborlee:)Jun 14 03:36
neighborleepayed the bills...we all do our part  which makes things go roundJun 14 03:36
splosionmy dad was a gravedigger. Well, only for a couple of years. But that's what it says on my birth certificateJun 14 03:37
neighborleevery kewlJun 14 03:37
neighborleesplosion, I mean somebody has to do it..what a nice thing to do I think..help put loved ones to rest...Jun 14 03:38
splosionshame I was never into the gothic scene. A gravedigger father, a room painted black with black curtains, oh it could have been awesome. \m/ fuck light \m/Jun 14 03:38
neighborleeIdont want to be buried..I cant be where I want to be < near mother and gparents> , so I think cremation..throw ashes or bury them near her then maybe ;0-Jun 14 03:38
neighborleesplosion, ROFLJun 14 03:39
neighborleeyou nailed that one ;))Jun 14 03:39
_Mutex_"If, pursuant to or in connection with a single transaction or arrangement, you convey, or propagate by procuring conveyance of, a covered work, and grant a patent license to some of the parties receiving the covered work authorizing them to use, propagate, modify or convey a specific copy of the covered work, then the patent license you grant is automatically extended to all recipients of the covered work and works based on it."Jun 14 03:49
_Mutex_seems clear to me !Jun 14 03:50
fewa_Mutex_, get a message from Microsoft's lawyersJun 14 04:00
_Mutex_I know im stupid, but I dont understand what that means :)Jun 14 04:01
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twitter:)Jun 14 04:08
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twitterUS torture lawyer faces lawsuit over his memos.  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avT0.R96jAFIJun 14 05:17
twitterNYT write up is more informative http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/us/politics/14yoo.html?ref=global-homeJun 14 05:19
_Mutex_lets hope they upstream it to the entire bush administrationJun 14 05:19
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yuhongBTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening?Jun 14 05:22
oiaohmLets just see what the EU does to MS windows.Jun 14 05:23
_Mutex_in reference to IE ?Jun 14 05:24
yuhongYea, it is old and dates all the way back to IE4's desktop update.Jun 14 05:24
_Mutex_I actually dont think there is much more the EU can do, MS did what they asked and removed it,  they just did not do what the EU really wanted that was get MS to promote competitores products.Jun 14 05:25
_Mutex_But they got what they asked for,  leaving them powerless IMO on that issue.Jun 14 05:25
oiaohmAnti-trust courts of the EU are strange beasts.Jun 14 05:25
oiaohmEven that EU asked MS to unbundle they have not done it on every version of Windows going to be released.Jun 14 05:26
_Mutex_it seems they are more interested in boosting their coffers than actually doing anything good.Jun 14 05:26
_Mutex_no only w7 for the EU, as was the requirementJun 14 05:26
oiaohmEU anti-trust also has a no repeat clause.  Ie if a past action did not work a different action has to be enforced in future.Jun 14 05:27
_Mutex_they are not going to do more than they need to. and they wont be able to be forced to bundle other browsers, so they just remove IE from W7 for europe and their dont.Jun 14 05:27
oiaohmSo unbundling has not worked they are legally bound to apply something different.Jun 14 05:27
_Mutex_No, they cant retrospectively do it,Jun 14 05:28
oiaohmEU anti-trust can block all imports into the EU.Jun 14 05:28
oiaohmLets see how this plays out.Jun 14 05:28
_Mutex_IF there is legal grounds for them to do so, they cannot "just do it for no reason".Jun 14 05:28
oiaohmEither MS will do as anti-trust asked.Jun 14 05:28
_Mutex_They haveJun 14 05:28
oiaohmThis time they asked for a selection on install.Jun 14 05:29
oiaohmMS answered with what they were asked to do last time.Jun 14 05:29
oiaohmThe is EU anti-trust.Jun 14 05:29
oiaohmNo repeats.Jun 14 05:29
oiaohmMS has answered incorrectly.Jun 14 05:29
_Mutex_they changed it because they did not like what happend, but MS will NOT bundle or provide a selection, its not even an End user issue, its an OEM issue.Jun 14 05:30
_Mutex_No customer in the EU will recieve W7 with a browser, unless they buy a shrink wrapped copy.Jun 14 05:30
oiaohmEU anti-trust whats browser selection put to end user.Jun 14 05:30
oiaohmwhats/wantsJun 14 05:30
oiaohmThat was there most recent ruling.Jun 14 05:31
oiaohmMS is trying to apply past ruling.Jun 14 05:31
oiaohmWith EU anti-trust past ruling means nothing.Jun 14 05:31
_Mutex_yes i know, they has a ruling, MS complied, but it was not good enough so EU decide to raise the goal posts, im sure MS will tell them to go eat Sh1tJun 14 05:32
yuhongBTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening?Jun 14 05:32
_Mutex_My local computer shop sells pcs with Windows and safari installed.Jun 14 05:32
oiaohmAnti-trust EU is allowed by law to move the goal posts as much as they like.Jun 14 05:32
oiaohmDell will ship Linux as it profitable.Jun 14 05:32
_Mutex_whether it will work or not is debatable, and even the EU have to abide by the lawJun 14 05:33
twitterconfusion, madness and revision in Windoze land http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633Jun 14 05:33
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oiaohmEU anti-trust laws allows anti-trust regulators extream powers _Mutex_Jun 14 05:33
yuhongI think MS first tried to kill it.Jun 14 05:33
twitterthe author talks about XP in glowing terms, but it was viewed as a turd promoted by the ignorant at the time.Jun 14 05:34
yuhongThen they try to tax it.Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_how are you going to like it when the EU forces liability on FOSS for shoddy product ?Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_extreem powers within the lawJun 14 05:34
yuhongFirst by using Novell SUSE, then using codecs.Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_even the might EU is not allowed to break the lawJun 14 05:34
oiaohmLike companies in the past have obeyed the regulator and still been broken up because in the end anti-trust regulators decide that was for the good of the market _Mutex_Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_EU has power in Europe, they have no power to break up a company that is not based in the EU.Jun 14 05:35
twitteradoption of XP was anything but "universal" - it took about 4 years to reach 50%.Jun 14 05:35
_Mutex_wow, an os to get to 50% in 4 years is quite an achievment !!Jun 14 05:36
oiaohm_Mutex_: funny enough.  EU anti-trust regulator has the legal right to attack MS in USA courts.Jun 14 05:36
_Mutex_link pleaseJun 14 05:36
_Mutex_so why dont they ?Jun 14 05:36
oiaohmBecause for them to do that MS has to fail to obey instructions.Jun 14 05:37
_Mutex_nuff said.Jun 14 05:37
twitterI have to laugh at the crazy talk of employees being given a stipend which they then use to purchase a computer.  Is this how M$ will sneak Vista 7 into the corporate workplace?Jun 14 05:37
oiaohmLike when MS decided not to pay there EU fines.Jun 14 05:37
oiaohmEU frooze usa assets of MS's.Jun 14 05:38
twitterhe repeats the Vista "image problem" lie.Jun 14 05:38
oiaohmEU anti-trust regulator truly does have teeth.   Lets see how much they take out of MS this time.Jun 14 05:38
_Mutex_yes, let see.Jun 14 05:39
twitterHere's an incomplete list of Wintel magazine people reporting Vista problems at the time.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/192990Jun 14 05:41
_Mutex_http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-311100.htmlJun 14 05:42
oiaohmIn theory if MS does not do what they are told to the EU regulator it can fine MS to the complete value of the assets then take the company and break it up.  That it a usa company does not block the EU from doing that _Mutex_Jun 14 05:42
_Mutex_I guess the EU is  not allways badJun 14 05:42
twitterThe words for such unusual agreement are, "consensus opinion"Jun 14 05:43
_Mutex_I actually doubt that very muchJun 14 05:43
oiaohmBut that would require MS to be stupid.Jun 14 05:43
oiaohmAnd not obey order.Jun 14 05:43
_Mutex_Im sure the US government would just love seeing the EU come in a screw with US companies,  I would bet my house the US gov would step on and stop that.Jun 14 05:44
_Mutex_Ok what if the EU decided to do that with Red Hat ?Jun 14 05:44
twitterThe Wintel press was not alone in it's disappointment.  I logged user, industry and business reactions in the Vista Failure Log.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855Jun 14 05:44
oiaohmThere is a joint agreement between the USA and the EU so companies in each cannot do crimes in either and not pay fines _Mutex_Jun 14 05:44
oiaohmNow if MS does not want to come under EU anti-trust rules they simply don't ship product there.Jun 14 05:45
twitterWith all of that to remind everyone, how can anyone be so bold faced about Vista as to say it was just misunderstood?Jun 14 05:45
_Mutex_paying fines and fining a company so much that is brings them down is 2 totally different things.Jun 14 05:45
oiaohmThat is allowed by the agreement _Mutex_Jun 14 05:45
oiaohmCompany does have one option to avoid over sized fines.Jun 14 05:46
_Mutex_mabey, but you know as well as I do its just aint gonna happen, (unless in someone dreams). lets be a BIT real hereJun 14 05:46
oiaohmNever ship into the other market every again.Jun 14 05:46
oiaohmSo highly damaging either way.Jun 14 05:46
_Mutex_which is why it wont happenJun 14 05:47
twitterJason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic.Jun 14 05:47
oiaohmMS will have to obey the regulator sooner or latter _Mutex_Jun 14 05:47
oiaohmLegally there is no other outcome _Mutex_Jun 14 05:47
oiaohmUnless you call death of company a good outcome.Jun 14 05:48
twitterFor some reason, he concludes his strange editorial with reference to Bill Gate's infamous 1976 Open Letter to Hobbiests.  Think he's a BN reader?Jun 14 05:48
_Mutex_well they did, they unbundled IE, that should of been the end of it, any further EU actions are unwarranted, no company should cowtow to standover tackics by anyone. but its not going to happen, and if it does, youcan come see me and ill give you a million dollars,,, thats  just how sure I amJun 14 05:48
twitterIck, he also references Ed Bott.Jun 14 05:48
twitterHa, he's got 69 replies.  Astroturf on top of fake news!Jun 14 05:49
_Mutex_The world of open-source development could be divided if the European Commission succeeds in passing a law extending consumer protection rules to software, according to experts.Jun 14 05:50
oiaohm_Mutex_: EU rules don't work that way.  Has the damage of the illegal anti-trust actions been undone.Jun 14 05:50
_Mutex_so is that a good thing too because its from teh EU ?Jun 14 05:50
oiaohmIf no regulator can keep on applying more restrictions.Jun 14 05:51
_Mutex_you say you know how the EU works ?? wow,  I dont even think the EU knows that,Jun 14 05:51
oiaohmanti-trust rules in the EU are very old.Jun 14 05:51
_Mutex_as probably are extortion laws too.Jun 14 05:52
oiaohmThey are based off the german model of anti-trust.Jun 14 05:52
oiaohmNot something you want to be on the wrong side of.Jun 14 05:52
_Mutex_the EU wont break up or destroy MS, its too good of a cash cow for them.Jun 14 05:52
_Mutex_Sorry, i hold no fear of the EU whatsoeverJun 14 05:53
oiaohmthey have broken up other cash cows in the past.Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_who?Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_cash cows for the EU I mean.Jun 14 05:53
oiaohmOne car company a complete bank and the list goes on.Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_Link plsJun 14 05:54
oiaohmThis is over 100 years.Jun 14 05:54
oiaohmThere will always been another person/company to become the next cash cow.Jun 14 05:54
_Mutex_im sure there is still reference to it somewhere, otherwise how do you know they did ?Jun 14 05:54
oiaohmI would have to dig up notes from sitting through a compare of the global anti-trust systems.Jun 14 05:55
_Mutex_making claims of doom and gloom without supporting proof, is little more than ,, "fear, uncertainty and doubt" IMHO. I tend to stick to the facts I find much more well true,, generallyJun 14 05:56
_Mutex_And if I dont have backup for a statement, I tend not to state it, for that reason.Jun 14 05:56
twitterA better history of events points to general disappointment with XP followed by the complete rejection of Vista.  The Vista consensus opinion is rapidly becoming a Windows consensus opinion.  Windows is never going to be fixed and should be avoided.  Vista 7 will finish M$ off.Jun 14 05:57
twitterIf M$ does not implode before release.Jun 14 05:57
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_Mutex_yes, i mean they have only sold 180 million copyies of vista, must be pretty crappy.Jun 14 05:58
_Mutex_sure, thats only 18 times what canonical states are the Ununtu install base (10 million).Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_if xp had been a disappointment then the same thing that happened with vista would have happened to itJun 14 05:59
TLinton_no one would have upgradedJun 14 05:59
TLinton_xp ran on the same hardware as windows 2000Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_once the dumb eye candy was removedJun 14 06:00
TLinton_so i don't think it was a failureJun 14 06:00
_Mutex_XP and win2k are very close structurally I beliveJun 14 06:00
_Mutex_not used much W2kJun 14 06:00
TLinton_i guessJun 14 06:00
TLinton_i didn't use 2000 much eitherJun 14 06:00
TLinton_we went from nt4 to xp in 2002 i thinkJun 14 06:00
oiaohmXP had buffer protections removed that was the major difference from windows 2000 internally.Jun 14 06:01
TLinton_but i remember it was plenty fastJun 14 06:01
TLinton_on a pII 450 iircJun 14 06:01
oiaohmSo XP was more unstable than 2000.Jun 14 06:01
_Mutex_im not sure but i think Xp was the last in the NT line, win2k was the next one and vista is something different again.Jun 14 06:01
oiaohmMS put the buffer protections back in Vista.Jun 14 06:01
oiaohmVista is still a NT core.Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_is it, i found XP exceedingly stable, so W2k must be ok,Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_yes I think your right.Jun 14 06:02
TLinton_isn't vista server 2003?Jun 14 06:02
oiaohmVideo and audio levels altered.Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_yes, in the kernelJun 14 06:02
TLinton_rightJun 14 06:02
TLinton_the one thing i found annoying about xp was setting it up initiallyJun 14 06:02
oiaohmMajor headache in vista is so call protected path.Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_never encounted it, what does it do ?Jun 14 06:03
TLinton_getting rid of the window gadgets and the search doggieJun 14 06:03
_Mutex_ahh, i missed the search doggie, and clippie LOLJun 14 06:03
oiaohmMent to block drm play back from being caputured si what protected path does.Jun 14 06:03
_Mutex_I want them to bring clippy back,Jun 14 06:03
_Mutex_actually I hated that damn thingJun 14 06:04
yuhongI don't think protected path is that of a major headache.Jun 14 06:04
_Mutex_what  does it do ?Jun 14 06:04
yuhongIt is only enabled with DRM content.Jun 14 06:04
DaemonMDVWindows 2000 and the original release of XP were not very differentJun 14 06:04
yuhongIn fact, even protected processes are only a headache when you want to do debugging on them.Jun 14 06:04
_Mutex_oh DRM, ive never encounted DRM ever !!. (i guess i dont steal enough songs)Jun 14 06:04
oiaohmIt effects the buffer handling in the video stack as well yuhongJun 14 06:05
yuhongYep, 2000 and XP were not that different.Jun 14 06:05
yuhongYep.Jun 14 06:05
oiaohmThe effects on the video stack effect everything.Jun 14 06:05
yuhongI don't think 7 will be the last release of Windows.Jun 14 06:05
DaemonMDVthere was more difference between XP RTM and XP SP2 than between 2000 and XP RTMJun 14 06:05
yuhongTrue, MS itself can't get rid of all the viruses in the Windows platform.Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDVXP SP2 held up Vista while they were frantically backporting stuff to XPJun 14 06:06
yuhongYep, XP SP2 was a security release.Jun 14 06:06
yuhongThey added buffer overflow protection in VC 7.0.Jun 14 06:06
_Mutex_considering they are allready working on the next version of windows I would tend to agreeJun 14 06:06
yuhongThey enabled it in Server 2003.Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDVit helped stop a lot of the stupid automated wormsJun 14 06:06
yuhongYep.Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDVbut didn't do a whole lot for user-initiated malwareJun 14 06:07
yuhongThis as well as many other security-related changes in Server 2003 was ported into XP SP2.Jun 14 06:07
DaemonMDVif Limewire was shut down I believe the number of spyware infections on Windows would be cut in halfJun 14 06:07
DaemonMDValmost instantlyJun 14 06:07
DaemonMDVerr, Gnutella ratherJun 14 06:07
yuhongTrue, even ReactOS can't do much about them.Jun 14 06:07
oiaohmReactos has not got to security system yet.Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDVReactOS is actually not vulnerable to as many Windows viruses as you'd thinkJun 14 06:08
oiaohmyep it lacks a lot of the secuirty flaws.Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDVthey can probably achieve a good deal of compatibility without doing the obviously stupid shit that allows malware to run rampantJun 14 06:08
oiaohmIn the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws.Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDVyes, and to achieve compatibility, they have to re-implement a lot of Windows bugs as wellJun 14 06:09
yuhongTrue, ReactOS is different code that doesn't have the same buffer overflows as windows.Jun 14 06:09
oiaohmLike bindly trusting that syscalls would be buffer safe because only ntdll would provide them.Jun 14 06:09
DaemonMDVwhich is why Linux, from a design standpoint, is better than ReactOSJun 14 06:09
oiaohmHow can you define nuts.Jun 14 06:09
_Mutex_virus'es and malware are actually a thing of the past with modern operating systems, after a minimum amount of effort, (like 5 minutes). and no costJun 14 06:09
DaemonMDVUNIX is just a specification, it never demands BINARY compatibilityJun 14 06:09
yuhongYes a worm could be written for ReactOS, but it would be different from a Windows worm.Jun 14 06:09
DaemonMDVso Linux has more wiggle roomJun 14 06:09
_Mutex_and almost zero cpu overheadJun 14 06:10
yuhong"In the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws."Jun 14 06:10
yuhongCan you give me an example?Jun 14 06:10
DaemonMDVwell, actual viruses are almost extinct if you want to get technicalJun 14 06:10
oiaohmI already gave oneJun 14 06:10
DaemonMDVmost malware anymore are actually trojan horsesJun 14 06:10
oiaohmthink syscalls would be safe because they allways should come from ntdll.dll.Jun 14 06:10
yuhongWell, even Windows probe pointers before accessing them.Jun 14 06:11
yuhongAnd use SEH to protect them.Jun 14 06:11
DaemonMDVif you look at a typical antivirus pattern databaseJun 14 06:11
oiaohmThere are a lot of those problems in XP.Jun 14 06:11
_Mutex_my av software is locked solidly on 00% CPU time.  and 360k ramJun 14 06:11
DaemonMDVover 70% of what it detects will be trojansJun 14 06:11
DaemonMDVonly about 10% are technically virusesJun 14 06:11
oiaohmSEH is also a windows weakness.Jun 14 06:11
yuhongYep, MS addressed SEH overwrites with SafeSEH.Jun 14 06:12
oiaohmDue to windows design you do a operaiont you are not permitted to do you can catch it on a SEH.Jun 14 06:12
oiaohmSo an attack can completely probe for weaknesses.Jun 14 06:12
oiaohmWhere Linux application ends up dead.Jun 14 06:12
oiaohmSometimes keeping programs running is the wrong thing.Jun 14 06:12
DaemonMDVif ReactOS implements a proper user/administrator separationJun 14 06:12
DaemonMDVit will correct the biggest Windows flawJun 14 06:13
yuhongWell, you can do the same thing with signal handlers, but it is not as convinent.Jun 14 06:13
_Mutex_keep in mind that windows has exactly the same security rating as SOME versions of Linux, and higher than most distro's of linuxJun 14 06:13
DaemonMDVBAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!Jun 14 06:13
oiaohmyuhong: linux MAC's you do something you are not approved you don't even get a single application is just dead.Jun 14 06:13
DaemonMDVthat must be why there's a couple dozen viruses over the last 18 years for LinuxJun 14 06:13
DaemonMDVand 571,000 for WindowsJun 14 06:14
oiaohmsingle/signalJun 14 06:14
yuhongBasically SafeSEH uses a SEH handler table generated by Visual C++ 7.1 and later.Jun 14 06:14
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oiaohmSafeSEH still allows probing.Jun 14 06:14
oiaohmUsing SEH to prevent application death.Jun 14 06:14
DaemonMDVactually more than that, ClamAV deletes patterns of really old onesJun 14 06:14
yuhongWindows Server 2003 and XP SP2 and later validate the SEH handler against this table.Jun 14 06:14
DaemonMDVso probably over 600,000Jun 14 06:14
yuhongIncorrect use of SEH led to the ANI vulerablity.Jun 14 06:15
_Mutex_that could also be that Windows is ubiqutious, and is a nice big target, but the fast there are nearly 600,000 viruses, and its still trivial to secure againt ALL of they says alot for Windows security.Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVwrongJun 14 06:15
_Mutex_600,000 or 6 million, if they cant break into your maching they are pointless.Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVif Windows was secure and antivirus worked (it doesn't)Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVthen viruses wouldn't get in, turn off your antivirusJun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVturn off updatesJun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVturn off the firewallJun 14 06:15
DaemonMDVand proceed to join their botnetJun 14 06:15
_Mutex_Sorry,, but it acutally does work, its a trivial matter to secure windows, anyone can do it.  even me.Jun 14 06:16
oiaohmLOLJun 14 06:16
DaemonMDVantivirus is ineffectiveJun 14 06:16
DaemonMDVand drains a lot of system resourcesJun 14 06:16
_Mutex_my machines are on the net 24/7 and i never ever have a problem.Jun 14 06:16
oiaohmYou mean install Linux I hope _Mutex_Jun 14 06:16
yuhongIn fact, most virus damage can be limited by running not as admin.Jun 14 06:16
yuhongNot worms however.Jun 14 06:16
_Mutex_my av software is consuming 0% cpu and 360K KILOBYTES of ram.Jun 14 06:16
oiaohmRunning as a guest user.Jun 14 06:16
DaemonMDVthe very best ones "only" cut your disk access performance in halfJun 14 06:16
_Mutex_not really that much system resources thereJun 14 06:16
oiaohmI can can take control of a Windows machine.Jun 14 06:17
oiaohmVery small flaw.Jun 14 06:17
oiaohmEveryone can start something a system user level.Jun 14 06:17
_Mutex_so if I gave you my IP address you could hack into my PC ??Jun 14 06:17
DaemonMDVI don't care about your PCJun 14 06:17
oiaohmWhen you are a limited user on Linux Mac anything other than windows.Jun 14 06:17
_Mutex_thas ok you didnt say you could break into itJun 14 06:18
oiaohmYou cannot run code as the highest user on the system.Jun 14 06:18
DaemonMDVI couldn't, but I'm not a Russian mafia typeJun 14 06:18
DaemonMDVthey're the ones that make the worms that do this stuffJun 14 06:18
oiaohmNetwork attack is not the kind of attack I am talking about _Mutex_Jun 14 06:18
oiaohmI am talking about giving you an application that will take control of your system.Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDVyeah man, free pornJun 14 06:19
DaemonMDVjust double click this plug inJun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV:DJun 14 06:19
DaemonMDVhere's your sign :PJun 14 06:19
_Mutex_sorry I thought you said you can take control or a windows machine ?? what when your sitting in front of it ?Jun 14 06:19
oiaohmOnly reason why it works from guest account in that the secuirty system of windows of swiss cheese.Jun 14 06:19
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DaemonMDVor then there's viruses that install themselves through holes in IEJun 14 06:19
oiaohmMS has even annonce they are not even fixing it in Windows 7Jun 14 06:20
DaemonMDVgod knows there's about enough leaks it springsJun 14 06:20
DaemonMDVwith ActiveX and .NetJun 14 06:20
oiaohmThe means to use rundll32 to start a service at system level.Jun 14 06:20
oiaohmSo allowing the secuirty of the complete system to be overridden.Jun 14 06:20
_Mutex_and how do you access the maching to execute rundll32 ?Jun 14 06:20
DaemonMDVand now some of Internet Explorer's holes will affect Firefox tooJun 14 06:20
oiaohmAny flaw.Jun 14 06:20
_Mutex_its easy to say you can hack a pc "once your allready in". even I can do that.Jun 14 06:21
DaemonMDVwhen it's running on XP or VistaJun 14 06:21
oiaohmFirefox internet explorer.Jun 14 06:21
DaemonMDVthanks to the .Net plugin Microsoft trojaned inJun 14 06:21
oiaohmUnder Linux these are limtied to 1 user.Jun 14 06:21
oiaohmdead.Jun 14 06:21
oiaohmUnder windows system dead.Jun 14 06:21
yuhong I know.Jun 14 06:21
_Mutex_one linux user with root can do anything, and everything, once you have root its game over.Jun 14 06:22
oiaohm_Mutex_: I give you a guest account on Linux you have to find a true extra flaw to get deeper.Jun 14 06:22
oiaohmOn windows once you are system user its all over _Mutex_Jun 14 06:22
oiaohmsystem is higher than administator.Jun 14 06:22
_Mutex_I am not the one who is claiming I can get into windows or linux, oiaohm that was your trick.Jun 14 06:23
oiaohmIt can even delete windows from the harddrive while the machine is running.Jun 14 06:23
oiaohmI am talking about hardness to take over complete system _Mutex_Jun 14 06:23
_Mutex_yes, and how do you propose to get system rights ??Jun 14 06:23
oiaohmrundll32 start a service it give it to you _Mutex_Jun 14 06:23
oiaohmSo just need something that gets me in the front door.Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_keep in mind Windows has the SAME security level as SOME linux's but MOST linuxes dont meet that standard.Jun 14 06:24
oiaohmWindows what secuiry.Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_EAL4 is what im refering to if you choose to google it and get the facts.Jun 14 06:24
oiaohmWhen every user can run rundll32 to give system user access.Jun 14 06:24
DaemonMDVWindows is made to run untrusted content from anonymous internet sitesJun 14 06:24
oiaohmNSA alteration is required to get EAL4 with windows.Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_dont tell me, tell the people who evaluate systemJun 14 06:25
_Mutex_link pls, (as fud buster).Jun 14 06:25
DaemonMDVwho are paid by whom?Jun 14 06:25
oiaohmParticularly replacement to the interfaces rundll32 talks to.Jun 14 06:25
_Mutex_ive heard that said several times, but ive yet to see the proofJun 14 06:25
oiaohmSo users cannot break outside there rights.Jun 14 06:25
oiaohmBy the way lot of applications using rundll32 to lift a part to system rights to avoid triggering UAC.Jun 14 06:26
oiaohmSo windows is running more and more and more as the equal to root.Jun 14 06:26
oiaohmSo making it weaker.Jun 14 06:26
_Mutex_care to backup your 'facts;with you know proof ?Jun 14 06:26
DaemonMDVIE is designed to run untrustworthy contentJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDVlike XAML appsJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDVthrough SilverlightJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDVthough that's hardly the worst part of IEJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDVit's so hard to pick a facoriteJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV*favoriteJun 14 06:27
DaemonMDVbetween non-standard scripting languages to a plug in installer system that anyone can spoofJun 14 06:28
oiaohmSo you don't read znet so did not see the notice about the back door around UAC not being fixed using rundll32 _Mutex_Jun 14 06:28
DaemonMDVto passing dangerous ASF scripts to Windows Media Player?Jun 14 06:28
DaemonMDVthat's always funJun 14 06:28
_Mutex_again, you care to confirm your sweeping statements with some proof please ?Jun 14 06:28
oiaohmDoes very much more investagation to find that rundll32 allows a little more than it should _Mutex_Jun 14 06:28
_Mutex_otherwise I have to chalk it down to fud sorryJun 14 06:29
oiaohm_Mutex_: the fault I am talking has been the news.Jun 14 06:29
oiaohmHave not even seen even a small bit of news about it.Jun 14 06:29
_Mutex_so how do you know then ?Jun 14 06:29
DaemonMDVhttp://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878Jun 14 06:30
DaemonMDV“There are a number of significant vulnerabilities in technologies related to the IE domain/zone security model, trust in and access to the local file system (Local Machine Zone), the Dynamic HTML (DHTML) document object model (in particular, proprietary DHTML features), the HTML Help system, MIME type determination, the graphical user interface (GUI), and ActiveX. These technologies are implemented as operating system componeJun 14 06:30
DaemonMDVare used by IE and many other programs to provide web browser functionality. These components are integrated into Windows to such an extent that vulnerabilities in IE frequently provide an attacker significant access to the operating system.”Jun 14 06:30
oiaohmWork with clamav pulling appart viruses _Mutex_Jun 14 06:30
_Mutex_im sure someone know about the EAL4 windows "patches' you spoke about oiaohmJun 14 06:30
DaemonMDVthe US government says IE is too insecure to useJun 14 06:30
_Mutex_does anyone here know how to back up statements with facts ??Jun 14 06:31
fewa_Mutex_, Windows viruses can immediately go from user account code execution to Administrator-level whole-computer restructuringJun 14 06:31
DaemonMDVI just didJun 14 06:31
_Mutex_assuming they get into your computer in the first place, and again I would be very interested in seeing you know actual facts.Jun 14 06:32
DaemonMDVthe US CERT said IE is insecureJun 14 06:32
DaemonMDVand can't be securedJun 14 06:32
oiaohmThe holes I am talking about are basic security knowledge so I am just trying to work out how you don't here or know of them _Mutex_Jun 14 06:32
DaemonMDVthat's good enough for me all by itselfJun 14 06:32
oiaohmEAL4: Methodically Designed, Tested, and Reviewed  Does not require secuirty system to work.Jun 14 06:33
DaemonMDVthey basically said IE is poorly designed, and deeply rooted into Windows, and therefore when a vulnerability is exploited, it usually gives the attacker way more access to Windows than it shouldJun 14 06:33
oiaohmIf your design has security system not working you can still pass EAL4Jun 14 06:34
_Mutex_IF they are so commonas you state, it would be trivial for you to show the proof to backup your statements, lets you be disregared as FUDingJun 14 06:34
DaemonMDVthey are commonJun 14 06:34
DaemonMDVIE 6 has over 160 documented security holesJun 14 06:34
DaemonMDVIE 7 and 8 aren't doing much better considering how long they've been outJun 14 06:34
_Mutex_IE 6 Hmm,, you know we're on 8 now right ??Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDVyeahJun 14 06:35
DaemonMDVwhich isn't doing betterJun 14 06:35
DaemonMDVit's only 2 months old and already has 8 holesJun 14 06:35
DaemonMDVIE y has 88Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV*IE 7Jun 14 06:35
_Mutex_that link you posted was 2004 , hardly relevant in 2009Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDVIE is too dangerous to useJun 14 06:35
_Mutex_pulling ancient "facts" is not doing you any favors for you integrity.Jun 14 06:36
oiaohmhttp://rixstep.com/2/20090318,00.shtml  << many viruses depend on the rundll32 means to lift rights including the recent ConfickerJun 14 06:36
DaemonMDVhttp://secunia.com/advisories/product/12366/Jun 14 06:36
DaemonMDV84 holesJun 14 06:37
oiaohmBasically you have not been reading you virus reports _Mutex_Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDV8 unpatchedJun 14 06:37
DaemonMDVfor IE 7Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDVaccording to SecuniaJun 14 06:37
oiaohmIts like a common door _Mutex_Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDVIE 8 is too new to tell, but it's not lookin goodJun 14 06:37
_Mutex_I dont have too, as I dont have any problems whatsoever with viruses, havent for years, for me . like MOST computer users its a NON-Issue.Jun 14 06:37
oiaohmI want to write a virus yep code it to use rundll32 then I can I can do what ever I like to the system.Jun 14 06:37
_Mutex_its not I dont know, its just I dont care. Im secure, I defy you to break into my maching, and i have not seen a virus or malware or pop-up for years.Jun 14 06:38
oiaohmThe door should be shut after 10 years of reports over the problem.Jun 14 06:38
oiaohmOr at least some form of control.Jun 14 06:38
oiaohmUAC does not even control usage of rundll32Jun 14 06:38
yuhongWell, on rundll32 and UAC, in an UAC prompt you can expand to see the command line.Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDVMicrosoft manager said UAC was a nag screenJun 14 06:39
DaemonMDVthere to annoy peopleJun 14 06:39
DaemonMDVit's not a security toolJun 14 06:39
yuhongWell, UAC is basically fundementally the same as sudo.Jun 14 06:39
fewaAnd microsoft programs can bypass itJun 14 06:39
fewaand doJun 14 06:39
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 06:39
DaemonMDVUAC is notJun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV"At the 2008 RSA security conference, Microsoft's David Cross was quoted as saying, 'The reason we put UAC into the platform was 'to annoy users. I'm serious.' The logic behind this statement is that it should encourage application vendors to eliminate as many unnecessary privilege escalations as possible by causing users to complain about all the UAC 'Cancel or Allow' prompts. Of course, they probably didn't expect that MicrosoJun 14 06:40
DaemonMDVinstead get most of the complaints for training users to ignore meaningless security warnings."Jun 14 06:40
fewamaking third-party programs second-class citizensJun 14 06:40
yuhongOnly that sudo has a timer so it nags people less.Jun 14 06:40
DaemonMDVsudo doesn't allow improper access to anythingJun 14 06:40
oiaohmsudo runs as a different user.Jun 14 06:40
DaemonMDVUAC doesJun 14 06:40
oiaohmpolicykit is being entered into Linux because sudo is a major secuirty problom.Jun 14 06:41
oiaohmSo if UAC is sudo its still crappy tech.Jun 14 06:41
_Mutex_I like UAC, its just another layer and just forms (a small) part of overall security, its hitting the return key, Um is no big deal.. honestJun 14 06:41
_Mutex_so is sudo crappy tech ?Jun 14 06:41
DaemonMDVUAC doesn't add any securityJun 14 06:41
DaemonMDVbut if you like to click pointless pop upsJun 14 06:41
fewa_Mutex_, obviously you have no care for well designed interfacesJun 14 06:41
DaemonMDVgoodJun 14 06:41
oiaohmsudo does not provide fine enough controls.Jun 14 06:41
fewa_Mutex_, and like snakeoilJun 14 06:42
_Mutex_ok whatever. it does but I wont argue with youJun 14 06:42
fewa_Mutex_, to be told you are safeJun 14 06:42
oiaohmpolicykit provides lot finer controls over user.Jun 14 06:42
_Mutex_I dont have to be told i am safe, I KNOW I am.Jun 14 06:42
DaemonMDVhttp://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/04/vistas-uac-security-prompt-was-designed-to-annoy-you.arsJun 14 06:42
yuhongMaybe sudo is just as crappy, but I am mentioning this because not as many complain about sudo prompts.Jun 14 06:42
fewapolicy kit along with MACs are very goodJun 14 06:42
_Mutex_not as many use sudoJun 14 06:42
yuhongOn the other hand sudo does have a timer, while UAC don't.Jun 14 06:42
fewaand Microsoft pretends UAC is originalJun 14 06:43
oiaohmUAC left out advnatage of policykit.Jun 14 06:43
fewawhile it is a wholesome ripoff of age-old UNIX technologyJun 14 06:43
oiaohmThe means to remember what applications are permitted to do what.Jun 14 06:43
yuhongDespite sudo requiring a password by default.Jun 14 06:43
DaemonMDV"Microsoft's approach to UAC is a carrot-and-stick way to get developers to adopt Microsoft's latest views on secure application installation and setup, but it does come at the expense of the user experience. It's hardly no surprise, then, that one of the most popular post-Vista install activities is disabling UAC. "Jun 14 06:43
_Mutex_I dont care if its original or not, gosh its just a tiny part of a much larger thing, and certainly not anything to bother waisting brain power thinking about.Jun 14 06:43
fewaIE snakeoilJun 14 06:43
_Mutex_we least I dontJun 14 06:43
oiaohmpolicykit is years ahead of sudo.Jun 14 06:43
yuhongIf you can change group policy, UAC can be set to do the same prompting for password however.Jun 14 06:43
DaemonMDVdoesn't help you if the malware bypasses the elevation in the first placeJun 14 06:44
DaemonMDVwhich a lot of it doesJun 14 06:44
DaemonMDVonly legitimate apps trigger UACJun 14 06:44
DaemonMDVbecause only they play by the rules :)Jun 14 06:44
fewaUAC is fear-mongering and _Mutex_  knows itJun 14 06:44
DaemonMDVUAC is like the honor system for malicious softwareJun 14 06:44
yuhongHow does malware bypass UAC?Jun 14 06:45
oiaohmrundll32 flaw need to be closed to remove elevation flaw.  That effectively renders UAC and the rest of windows secuirty useless.Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_whats fear mongering ?Jun 14 06:45
oiaohmrundll32 yuhongJun 14 06:45
_Mutex_me saying im safe how will that instill fear in you ?Jun 14 06:45
DaemonMDVrundll32 runs a dll as an applicationJun 14 06:45
_Mutex_Are you scared because I have a secure system ?Jun 14 06:45
oiaohmSame with many other applications that want to do UAC operations.Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_I find that amazingJun 14 06:45
oiaohmAnd don't want to ask users.Jun 14 06:45
yuhongrundll32? I already said UAC lets you expand to see the command line.Jun 14 06:45
DaemonMDVlots of stuff can just bypass UAC, set up a rootkitJun 14 06:45
DaemonMDVthen make the user unaware anything even happenedJun 14 06:46
DaemonMDVas it turns their PC into a spam zombieJun 14 06:46
oiaohmDo you see very rundll32 call from an application.Jun 14 06:46
yuhongThe dll name rundll32 is trying to run will be in it's command line.Jun 14 06:46
oiaohmYou don't yuhongJun 14 06:46
yuhongWhat do you mean?Jun 14 06:46
oiaohmThe trap is in the wrong place.Jun 14 06:47
yuhongWhy?Jun 14 06:47
oiaohmIf you run it from cmd UAC catchs it.Jun 14 06:47
oiaohmIf you run rundll32 directly it don't.Jun 14 06:47
DaemonMDVit's easier to just trojan your stuff in piggybacking on legit-looking softwareJun 14 06:47
DaemonMDVor preinfect the operating system disc imageJun 14 06:47
DaemonMDVand put it on a file sharing siteJun 14 06:48
oiaohmSimple fix really.Jun 14 06:48
yuhongWhat? CMD contains only the invoker for UAC.Jun 14 06:48
oiaohmMove the trap into the api rundll32 uses.Jun 14 06:48
oiaohmSo not allowing application to ship with own version of rundll32.Jun 14 06:48
_Mutex_assuming anyone is stupid enough to download and run unknown software, and if you do so, you deserve everything you get for stupidity.Jun 14 06:48
yuhongWhich is LoadLibrary.Jun 14 06:48
oiaohmYep what would close door.Jun 14 06:49
oiaohmFairly simple to close really.Jun 14 06:49
oiaohmJust wish MS would.Jun 14 06:49
yuhongAnd unfortunately LoadLibrary do not create a process so it is impossible to elevate there.Jun 14 06:49
yuhongThe trap is actually in elevate.exe.Jun 14 06:49
oiaohmThere are other calls rundll32 does.Jun 14 06:49
yuhongNone of which create a process so that it would be impossible to put the trap there.Jun 14 06:50
yuhongShellExecute just invokes the trap, which is actually in elevate.exe.Jun 14 06:50
yuhongWhich is the one showing the UAC prompt.Jun 14 06:51
_Mutex_UAC for windll32 auto-elevation  has been fixedJun 14 06:51
oiaohmNext to see if they fix the browser plugin lift.Jun 14 06:52
yuhongCodeProject has a good, detailed description of the UAC elevation process.Jun 14 06:52
oiaohmThere are a lot if little lift points that need fixing.Jun 14 06:52
yuhonghttp://www.codeproject.com/KB/vista-security/UAC__The_Definitive_Guide.aspxJun 14 06:53
oiaohmIf MS can get them all shut they will reduce virus threat by a massive ammount.Jun 14 06:53
_Mutex_im sure if we went far enough back in history we can find millions of security problems in all operating systems, im sure if you searched for DOS viruses you would find them, does not mean they are ANYTING today,Jun 14 06:53
yuhongIf Linux don't compell MS to make Windows open source, ReactOS will eventually.Jun 14 06:54
_Mutex_I actually think after mono, MS will NEVER open source windows,  and whats a reactOS, if its a windows clone explain how or why anyone would want to change ?Jun 14 06:55
oiaohmPeople said the same about solarias from sun.  _Mutex_Jun 14 06:56
yuhongBecause ReactOS is FOSS unlike Windows.Jun 14 06:56
_Mutex_in fact after mono I wonder how many groups will be thinking long and hard about opening up there stuff, lest FOSS decide they are not "one of us".Jun 14 06:56
_Mutex_yes, but what is it, a windows knockoff ?Jun 14 06:57
oiaohmLinux Unix knockoff forced solarias a UNIX open source _Mutex_Jun 14 06:57
yuhongWell, Mono was only a problem after the MS-Novell deal.Jun 14 06:58
oiaohmMono is poor performance does not help its case to use it.Jun 14 06:58
oiaohmIts like VB of all.Jun 14 06:58
_Mutex_yes, thats right Linux based on UNIX caused UNIX to be open, not windows.  oranges and bananasJun 14 06:58
yuhongOn OpenSolaris, I dug out this.Jun 14 06:58
yuhonghttp://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/what_we_didJun 14 06:58
oiaohmPut reactos were Linux is against windows.Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_and solaris still have a proprietary versionJun 14 06:59
yuhongYep.Jun 14 06:59
oiaohmReally there is nothing closed in the proprietary version.Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_people will never change to something that is ONLY JUST AS GOOD, or not quite as good as they are allready using, its just how people are.Jun 14 06:59
yuhongYep.Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_its still proprietaryJun 14 06:59
oiaohmLinux does does not 100 percent tech beat solarias.Jun 14 07:00
oiaohmYet it has broken most of solarias market.Jun 14 07:00
oiaohmReactos to windows  where Linux was compared to solarias was in 1993Jun 14 07:01
_Mutex_Im sorry "linux does does not 100 percent tech beat salarias" is confusing me. im not real bright :)Jun 14 07:01
oiaohmContainer tech and internal debuging solarias still beats Linux cleanly _Mutex_Jun 14 07:01
_Mutex_so solaris is better than linux ?Jun 14 07:02
oiaohmFor particular workloads.Jun 14 07:02
_Mutex_ahh okJun 14 07:02
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oiaohmIf you have 100 percent tech beaten something there are no advantages left.Jun 14 07:02
yuhongSolaris is also better if you have to run old Unix apps that used STREAMS.Jun 14 07:03
yuhongCorrect.Jun 14 07:03
oiaohmLess than a 100 percent tech beaten is a good enough beat.Jun 14 07:03
yuhongSince it is derived from SVR4.Jun 14 07:03
oiaohmLinux has beaten solarias by being good enough most of the time.Jun 14 07:03
_Mutex_except for the end user who will never downgrade or even sidegrade,Jun 14 07:03
_Mutex_its upgrade or nothingJun 14 07:03
oiaohmSame is true in the solaris camp _Mutex_Jun 14 07:04
oiaohmYou are talking less than 1 percent of the market is that true for _Mutex_Jun 14 07:04
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yuhongIn fact, sockets was implemented on top of streams in opensolaris until recently.Jun 14 07:04
_Mutex_thats why I said any OS that wants to displace windows has to be better than windows by a large enough marging to make people willing to change for the extra featuresJun 14 07:05
oiaohmNoJun 14 07:05
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oiaohmApple and solarias have both be displaced by worse.Jun 14 07:05
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oiaohmCost is a factor _Mutex_Jun 14 07:05
_Mutex_um, its just the way it is, its called human nature, and if you dont believe just look at Linux market penetration to date.Jun 14 07:05
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_Mutex_its a minimal factor.Jun 14 07:05
oiaohmIf Linux crosses the good enough level against windows it can start major displacements.Jun 14 07:05
oiaohmReactos can also start that.Jun 14 07:06
oiaohmSooner or latter MS will be displaced it will not be by something that is completely betterJun 14 07:06
_Mutex_what did i work out yesterday, WinXP cost me $1.57 per month amortized over the period of time I used it.Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_less than a beer or a cup of coffee per month.Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_In other words, nothingJun 14 07:06
_Mutex_pocket changeJun 14 07:06
oiaohmHow much did the hardware cost you over the same time.Jun 14 07:07
yuhongI think Linux should aim for when all the major OEMs offer it as an mainstream options, not just relegated to a niche area like Dell's Linux efforts are right now.Jun 14 07:07
_Mutex_im not going to (nor is anyone else) willing to downgrade or even change for the sake of $2bucks per monthJun 14 07:07
_Mutex_about the sameJun 14 07:07
oiaohmThis is the point it is heading to the point for that 2 bucks per month you can have 2 machines.Jun 14 07:07
yuhongOf course not.Jun 14 07:07
oiaohmA long time ago software was about 10 percent of the cost of the machine.Jun 14 07:08
oiaohmIs now passing 50 percent.Jun 14 07:08
_Mutex_if you consider the various "components" of my PC, my RAM cost about $120, my HD about $120, my MD about $200, my OS about $120 and so on.Jun 14 07:08
oiaohmYou will see arm based machines hardware around the 200 dollar mark.Jun 14 07:09
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_Mutex_so all those components amortised over their life span means each component is still less than $2 each.Jun 14 07:09
_Mutex_including CPU, monitor, keyboards and so on.Jun 14 07:09
oiaohm200 dollar total machine cost.Jun 14 07:09
yuhongYep, MS was forced to offer discounts for netbooks and such.Jun 14 07:09
_Mutex_no read "EACH"Jun 14 07:10
oiaohmI am refering to arm hardware _Mutex_Jun 14 07:10
oiaohmNot the hardware you have.Jun 14 07:10
oiaohmOf course you leave out anti-virus and other software people buy.Jun 14 07:11
_Mutex_all im saying is, compared to all my system components, the OS (another system component) cost about same as any other single component, and based on that, there is no financial advantage gains in changing the OS component, unless its significantly better than what im presently using.Jun 14 07:11
oiaohmI would simply love a arm laptop just on the grounds of battery life.  For that I would not care about having windows.Jun 14 07:11
oiaohmarm devices can truly do 10 hours under full load.Jun 14 07:12
oiaohm48 hours under general load.Jun 14 07:12
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oiaohmWhere a person with a normal laptop would be lucky to get 8 under light load _Mutex_Jun 14 07:13
mib_yh98j3Mutex, your $2 a month is only a tiny bit of the real cost of Windows in our world...  There's also the costs of our governments and schools paying Microsoft.  The costs of spam spewing Windows machines and the costs of down time for the MANY quirky reasons that Windows stops working.  But mostly the cost of true innovation being squelched by the fat, spoiledJun 14 07:13
mib_yh98j3brat that likes to throw its weight around, and can only get friends if it buys them...then it stabs them in the back.  Hmmph, $2 a month? I don't think so.Jun 14 07:13
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mib_yh98j3by the way, hi. Sorry to rant, but sometimes the things I read here make me peevishJun 14 07:14
_Mutex_sorry I dont pay government or school fees, spam costs me nothing, i have zero downtime, my windows NEVER stops working, NEVER BSOD's,  and I dont see an issue with innovation, at least its not based on a 40 year old OS, (I dont see that much innovation in doing something thats allready done).Jun 14 07:16
oiaohm_Mutex_: I guess you use MS Office as well.Jun 14 07:16
oiaohmAnd you did not include that in costs.Jun 14 07:16
oiaohmLot of people over 50 percent of there machine cost is software.Jun 14 07:17
_Mutex_not much, I mainly use C compilers, and embedded development tools, both proprietary and fossJun 14 07:17
mib_yh98j3So, Mutex, you're okay with it as long as it's everyone else paying the tollJun 14 07:17
_Mutex_therefore I mostly use (FOSS) textpad for workprocessing, as it have highlightingJun 14 07:17
yuhongMy Windows PCs almost never BSoDs either.Jun 14 07:17
oiaohmMy Linux machine does not crash either.Jun 14 07:18
yuhongThey are pretty stable, and so is my Linux PCs.Jun 14 07:18
_Mutex_Um, its not my responsibility to dictate how others want to spend their money, and im quite sure its not yours eitherJun 14 07:18
oiaohmYet I don't lie and say no linux crash.Jun 14 07:18
oiaohmI know that mine is due to my hardware and my configuration.Jun 14 07:18
yuhongOpenOffice can run on top of Windows as well.Jun 14 07:18
oiaohmIs the reason my machine don't crash.Jun 14 07:18
_Mutex_no, ive used Linux and its crashed, but that was RH 7.2 and 10 years agoJun 14 07:19
mib_yh98j3I'm not talking about your computers, I'm talking about costs worldwide, like the London Stock Exchange, hospitalsJun 14 07:19
oiaohmI know that people running pulseaudio and compiz at the moment cause crashes.Jun 14 07:19
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_Mutex_at teh same time win95 being the piece of crap it was, used to die all the time, and so did you NT4Jun 14 07:19
mib_yh98j3Military computer systems, etc.  It costs ALL of us, and it needs to be addressedJun 14 07:19
_Mutex_Or the FAA air traffic control system (oh wait thats linux).Jun 14 07:20
yuhongYep, 9x was crap.Jun 14 07:20
mib_yh98j3The FAA wasn't brought down by a stupid virusJun 14 07:20
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_Mutex_sure was, that was acutally the golden age of linux, and here's why, Win95 could not handle more than 512 meg of RAM so if you had a h igh end machine and wanted a decent memory handler you had to go Linux.Jun 14 07:21
_Mutex_Numerous breaches of the FAA system over the past years and POST the RH install and take over of the legacy system. Its quite an interesting articleJun 14 07:22
_Mutex_RH was happy braggin about the $15 million saved by Linux, but are surprisingly quite about this issue, (I wonder why).Jun 14 07:23
yuhongOr NT.Jun 14 07:23
yuhongYep, even 98 had to set the max vcache size in order to work with 1 GB.Jun 14 07:23
yuhongNT never had this limit.Jun 14 07:24
_Mutex_yes, its was hopelless, and lots of people (including me) moved to linux.Jun 14 07:24
mib_yh98j3Mutex, because there is no "issue".  For every Linux problem that's been long fixed, there are thousands of Windows problems that are sstill in the newsJun 14 07:24
_Mutex_and as I was working as a linux admin I had to know a bit about it, but its not hard, no os is.Jun 14 07:24
_Mutex_I like VMS the best, thats a nice ass OS.Jun 14 07:25
yuhongHIGHMEM had to be added in order for Linux to address more than 1GB.Jun 14 07:25
_Mutex_reminds me of the old DOSHIGH days !!Jun 14 07:25
yuhongIn fact, even today GNU Mach still cannot address more than 1 GB.Jun 14 07:25
yuhongIn fact, NT kernel was derived from VMS.Jun 14 07:26
_Mutex_well the key developer of VMS was the lead developer of NT, but there is little similarity between the two, (unfortunately).Jun 14 07:26
yuhongYep.Jun 14 07:27
_Mutex_if it had the VMS versioning file system, and the "just connect em together" to create a cluster, the ability to boot off multiple and distributed HD's the list is endlessJun 14 07:27
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_Mutex_what SMP, buy a hub and a few PC and build yourself a cluster, nothing else required. just link em up and away you go.Jun 14 07:28
yuhongIn the end, the developer of GNU Mach just decided to wait until it is ported to 64-bit.Jun 14 07:28
_Mutex_:) wow, thats a major copout :)Jun 14 07:29
yuhongAddressing more than 1 GB of memory will be much easier with 64-bit.Jun 14 07:29
yuhongPAE support was added, but only because of Xen.Jun 14 07:29
_Mutex_in theory it should not make any difference between 1 gig and 4 gig its still within 32 addresss space.Jun 14 07:30
_Mutex_but i know it doesJun 14 07:30
yuhongI suggested to use the recently added PAE support to add NX support to GNU Mach.Jun 14 07:30
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yuhongIf they don't want to support more than 1 GB in GNU Mach.Jun 14 07:31
yuhongThe NX bit is only accessible in PAE mode.Jun 14 07:31
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yuhongEven Windows had to enable PAE with physical addresses limited to 32-bit to enable NX support.Jun 14 07:32
yuhonghttp://www.mail-archive.com/bug-hurd@gnu.org/msg16749.htmlJun 14 07:34
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DaemonMDVrhythmbox is the buggiest program everJun 14 07:36
DaemonMDVmy minimize to tray plugin is just goneJun 14 07:36
fewaDaemonMDV, meh i use it and it worksJun 14 07:38
fewafor me it only crashes when i hibernate and it loses its audio pipeJun 14 07:39
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DaemonMDVBanshee 1.5 has a settings migrator that can import your Rhythmbox settingsJun 14 07:59
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Omar871Hello there?Jun 14 08:30
Omar871Guys, what is the easiest way to build animated web apps.?Jun 14 08:31
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Omar871By easiest, I also meant one that requires the shortest learning curve possible.Jun 14 08:31
chips_b_malroyAre you still up Roy?Jun 14 08:32
chips_b_malroynoticed you comment was whyJun 14 08:32
chips_b_malroyRoy, its good you did not give those Linsuks shills any bandwidth, as they have some kind of agenda, most likely paid shills from MSJun 14 08:33
schestowitzHeyJun 14 08:34
schestowitzWhat's up?Jun 14 08:34
schestowitzchips_b_malroy: they still get bandwidthJun 14 08:34
schestowitzSome of them are still in IRCJun 14 08:34
Omar871chips_b_malroy: They're not only shills, they yap around like kids too.Jun 14 08:34
chips_b_malroynot much, just my opinion.  Roy I know you are against censorship.  But my suggestion, and of course its only that.  Is that bunch sounds just like the ones we fought with at MS Watch, goblin and I.Jun 14 08:35
chips_b_malroyI would say that BN trys to provide an forum for free thinkingJun 14 08:36
chips_b_malroysadly, this does not always work.  It only works when indivuals use the forumJun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroynot when an evil company uses paid shills to attack itJun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroyshillbombers, is what Marco called them on MS WatchJun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroythey floode the site with their trolling posts and filthJun 14 08:38
chips_b_malroydon't let them do that on your site, if you can prevent themJun 14 08:39
kentmait's what they're paid to do.  They're the internet equivalent of hired thugs to beat people up.Jun 14 08:39
chips_b_malroywhile free speech is nice, yelling "fire" in a crowded threate has been proven crimalJun 14 08:39
kentmathey have no morals.Jun 14 08:39
chips_b_malroytrueJun 14 08:39
kentmaA sort of internet mafiosoJun 14 08:40
chips_b_malroya site therefore needs moderation or moderators, and rulesJun 14 08:40
kentmasadly, this behaviuor is extremely commonJun 14 08:40
chips_b_malroyNo fllth, no threats, etcJun 14 08:40
kentmachips_b_malroy: maybe... the problem is, though - should we allow the thugs and criminals to prevent ordinary people from having free speech?Jun 14 08:40
_Mutex_trouble is, thats what free speach is all about, being able to state your opinion, regardless of whether you like it or not.Jun 14 08:40
kentma_Mutex_: indeed so.  some people abuse this privilege for financial gain, however.Jun 14 08:41
chips_b_malroyon this channel, prehaps boot those who run away with the discussion (shillbomber).  Just for this IRC channelJun 14 08:41
_Mutex_mabey so, but thats their constitutional right to do so.Jun 14 08:41
kentma_Mutex_: eh?  where in magna carta is this mentioned?Jun 14 08:42
_Mutex_and not our position to judge or censor them for it...Jun 14 08:42
kentmaI have a copy of magna carta on my wall, and I can't see that bit...Jun 14 08:42
kentmaI can see bits about limiting the powers of monarchs...Jun 14 08:42
_Mutex_im sorry if your country does not have free speach,  mine does :)Jun 14 08:42
kentma_Mutex_: err, mine has, but it doesn't have the US constitution, matey boy.Jun 14 08:43
chips_b_malroyThis channel  (IRC) is not the same thing as the comments on the site.  This channel is to my thinking a group discussion of ideas to be presented to Roy in a helpful mannor.Jun 14 08:43
kentma_Mutex_: the US constitution applies *to the US* and nowhere else.Jun 14 08:43
chips_b_malroySo those who disrupt this IRC Mibbit channel, should be quickly booted and banned.  But thats my thought.Jun 14 08:44
kentma_Mutex_: which means it applies to a very small proportion of the population of the planet, and in a specifically and internationally agreed geography, and not one inch further.Jun 14 08:44
_Mutex_most western countries have their own version of free speech lawsJun 14 08:44
_Mutex_but this being a US site, in the US there is free speech laws..Jun 14 08:45
kentma_Mutex_: indeed so, however, speak not of US constitutional rights applying anywhere other than where tehy apply!Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_i did not say "US" constitutionJun 14 08:45
kentma_Mutex_: this is an IRC channel, and your arrogance is p*ssing me off.Jun 14 08:45
chips_b_malroyNo, its Roy's site, its a private site.  And I know he wants to have it as free as possible.  But all sites have some rules and someone who moderates. otherwise, the bad guys will run over you.Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_fair enough, your free to say that,Jun 14 08:45
kentmachips_b_malroy: exactly, it's Roy's site...Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_not too many public web sites are privateJun 14 08:46
kentma_Mutex_: how very generous of you.Jun 14 08:46
_Mutex_why thankyou :)Jun 14 08:46
chips_b_malroyYes, thats all I have to say Roy.  That you do not need the troublemakers here on the IRC channel.  let them post comments, if they mustJun 14 08:46
schestowitzWhat should we do then?Jun 14 08:48
schestowitzDeny entry?Jun 14 08:48
schestowitzWe can't deny commentsJun 14 08:48
schestowitzWe even allowed idiots like "a turn" whose comment is just "nigger"Jun 14 08:48
schestowitzShane has always been against comment moderationJun 14 08:48
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chips_b_malroyban and boot, always have a moderator on the IRC channel to do that.   Have rules posted on behavior in the IRC channelJun 14 08:48
schestowitzNopeJun 14 08:49
schestowitzAlso, they can avoid breaking the rulesJun 14 08:49
schestowitzIt's not so simpleJun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroysort of like what they do on the linux user forums but not so muchJun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroyok, maybe not thenJun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroyI can see where it would be a problemJun 14 08:50
schestowitzI guess the point that I make it that they know how to keep malicious presenceJun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroybut look at it as another attackJun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroylike the ddos oneJun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroyMS is most likely behind this oneJun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroyyou are getting to them, which is a good thingJun 14 08:51
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maxstirner1 Jun 14 08:51
maxstirner1weirdJun 14 08:51
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chips_b_malroythey are not going give up, the battle only changes, the trolls will be back with new namesJun 14 08:52
oiaohmMost of the trolls don't have arguments that stand up to inspection.Jun 14 08:52
chips_b_malroyI fought them in my little small way at MS Watch, you fight the big fight for all of usJun 14 08:52
schestowitzIs Apple Watch alive?Jun 14 08:53
schestowitzI mean, I think Ziffy Davy employed him for that tooJun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroyOiahm, what arguments did Linsux have that they said?Jun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroyApple Watch is dead last I seenJun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroyI read the logsJun 14 08:54
chips_b_malroyhereJun 14 08:54
schestowitzI see that in the past week we average about 7000 unique IPs/dayJun 14 08:54
schestowitz*gedJun 14 08:54
schestowitzSo a lot of people get exposed to the stories, not the same peopleJun 14 08:54
schestowitzThis can't be good to any of the companies coveredJun 14 08:54
schestowitzUbuntu also took a blog for attritude re: MonoJun 14 08:54
_Mutex_or lots of the same people with dynamic IPJun 14 08:54
schestowitzyesJun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroyso they fight u, same playbook as in MS WatchJun 14 08:55
schestowitzI knowJun 14 08:55
schestowitzBut you can't track itJun 14 08:55
schestowitzIf people may consider other distros, then Ubuntu will look closer at Mono decisionsJun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroythey cannot beat you logic and thinking, so they turn toJun 14 08:55
_Mutex_its actually probably a fairly small valueJun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroyevilJun 14 08:55
schestowitzBrowsers used by visitsJun 14 08:56
schestowitzDifferent browsers listed 10Jun 14 08:56
schestowitzNetscape/Mozilla   22155 (49.2%)Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz  Jun 14 08:56
schestowitzUnknown   10342 (23.0%)Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz   Jun 14 08:56
schestowitzExplorer   8518 (18.9%)Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz  Jun 14 08:56
_Mutex_gotta love that logic and thinkingJun 14 08:56
_Mutex_interesting :)Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz[From the past few days]Jun 14 08:56
oiaohmchips_b_malroy: linsux admin is a normal USA insane person.  Thinking that freedom of speech allows everything and have lack of understanding what condone means.Jun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroyHow is Mono in the Debian and Ubuntu repo's?  When they will not put the files in it to decript DVd's, play WMA (win32codecs) etc, because its non-free or scared to be sued.  What is the difference with this and mono/moonlight?Jun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroyits only good for suseJun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroyas in not a legal problemJun 14 08:57
_Mutex_the difference is Mono is GPLJun 14 08:58
chips_b_malroyIt has a GPL licence maybe, but that was a major mistake on someones partJun 14 08:58
oiaohmBetter question is why does not debian enable anti-aliasing in freetype using apples patented code.Jun 14 08:58
_Mutex_that would be richard stallman thenJun 14 08:59
_Mutex_he approved itJun 14 08:59
chips_b_malroyyou way off tract OiahmJun 14 08:59
oiaohmmp3 play back is also gpl2 like mono _Mutex_Jun 14 08:59
oiaohmNot really.Jun 14 08:59
_Mutex_then with that there is no problem either, GPL provies the necessary protectionJun 14 08:59
chips_b_malroytry to stay on topicJun 14 08:59
oiaohmGPLv2 does not provide iron for sure patent protection.Jun 14 09:00
chips_b_malroyGPL is just a licenceJun 14 09:00
_Mutex_according to the GPL is does,Jun 14 09:00
oiaohmGPLv3Jun 14 09:00
_Mutex_and 2Jun 14 09:00
chips_b_malroyit does not correct the underlying patents and licences that mono depends on.  Its an legal questionJun 14 09:00
oiaohmNo GPLv2 wording suggest maybe it might.Jun 14 09:00
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oiaohmGPLv3 there is no question about it _Mutex_Jun 14 09:01
chips_b_malroylike mp3, wma (win32codecs) and dvd playblack,  mono is no differnetJun 14 09:01
_Mutex_dont tell me i have to pull up the GPL again and post the relevant section here so you can see for yourselfJun 14 09:01
oiaohmPull them and I will rip gplv2 to bits.Jun 14 09:01
_Mutex_okJun 14 09:01
oiaohmThere are section in it that are not confirmed.Jun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroyit might protect the user, but not the distro that speads mono in their repo'sJun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroyUbuntu can be suedJun 14 09:02
_Mutex_whats not confirmed from the GPLv2 ?Jun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroywhen the time is right for MSJun 14 09:02
oiaohmThat person building program gets any right to use patent. _Mutex_Jun 14 09:03
oiaohmThat is not written into GPLv2Jun 14 09:03
_Mutex_? sorry what ?Jun 14 09:03
oiaohmIt is written into GPLv3Jun 14 09:03
chips_b_malroythey, Ubuntu put it in the repo, and on their disks already installed.  And Ubuntu is a target, as they now make a commercial server version, or plan to.Jun 14 09:04
oiaohmJust because you have the source and are allowed to build the application.   Does not mean you have the right to use anything made using patented tech.Jun 14 09:04
chips_b_malroyexactlyJun 14 09:04
oiaohmGPLv3 include particular clause that you must grant those rights.Jun 14 09:04
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chips_b_malroyu can relicence anything to another licence, but that does not make it legalJun 14 09:05
chips_b_malroythat will be decided in a court of lawJun 14 09:05
oiaohmJust like one guy going to release RCU code under LGPL from Linux kernel.Jun 14 09:06
oiaohmHad to be reminded even that it was his code it s IBM patent.Jun 14 09:06
chips_b_malroywe are far far better without mono and moonlight in GNU LinuxJun 14 09:06
oiaohmand IBM has only approved usage of that patent under GPL not LGPL.Jun 14 09:06
oiaohmPatents are a bugger.Jun 14 09:07
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chips_b_malroythe reason that MS is more of a legal firm than a software oneJun 14 09:07
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oiaohmGPLv3 requires code providers to provide patents as required for people to use the program.Jun 14 09:08
chips_b_malroyBill learned from his DaddyJun 14 09:08
oiaohmMS really hates GPLv3  it threatens to undermine there patent game.Jun 14 09:09
chips_b_malroyu have to fight Mono/moonlight on the patents issueJun 14 09:09
oiaohmMost people point to Linux and say its the same as mono both are gplv2 but Linux developers are reminded quite often who's patent effects what section of code.Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroyit needs to be treated as a lawsuite issue, just like dvd, mp3, and wma playblack, a seperate repo in an overseas country not affected.  That way u winJun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroynobody will install the malware that wayJun 14 09:10
oiaohmBig issue with Mono is MS is not really that forth coming on what is patented.Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroymono that isJun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroyif MS wanted us to have it, they would say so, and make it 100% no doubt legal, which they have not done.  It fact they sued Tom Tom for Fat32.Jun 14 09:12
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oiaohmOther thing that was strange before MS sued Tomtom was using mono internally.Jun 14 09:12
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chips_b_malroyits only legal for Suse. And only for 5 years from when their hidden agreement was signedJun 14 09:12
oiaohmNow tomtom is converting to C++Jun 14 09:12
oiaohmI keep on forgeting when that agreement goes by  by.Jun 14 09:13
chips_b_malroyguessing another 3 yearsJun 14 09:13
oiaohm28 March 2007  It has to be before then.Jun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroyWhile Debian has Mono in their repo's, i cannot understand why?  They think they cannot be sued because they are non-profit??  They are wrong.Jun 14 09:15
oiaohmSo a little under 3 years.Jun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroyMS will go after themJun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroyMost likely the time that MS will sue manyJun 14 09:15
oiaohm2012Jun 14 09:15
_Mutex__RMS does not seem to think so,Jun 14 09:16
chips_b_malroyMS be in big trouble by 2012Jun 14 09:16
_Mutex__that they can be suidJun 14 09:16
_Mutex__what h appens in 1212 ?Jun 14 09:16
oiaohmBy 2012 MS could be completely despreate _Mutex__Jun 14 09:16
_Mutex__how come ?Jun 14 09:16
oiaohmBit like SCO was a few years back.Jun 14 09:16
chips_b_malroyAt some point when things get worse for the Borg, expect them to sue their users, you know the piratesJun 14 09:17
oiaohmA fit company does not start killing departments _Mutex__Jun 14 09:17
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chips_b_malroynot if they really a long term company still making billions of profits, which is what they sayJun 14 09:18
_Mutex__every smart company will kill departments if they are not profitable, thats normal business, even in FOSS.Jun 14 09:19
oiaohmNormally not kill.  Most companies that are doing well restruct not kill.Jun 14 09:19
oiaohmIe end one department start a new to go into another field.Jun 14 09:20
_Mutex__its the ones that resist change that die, ask chrisler or GMJun 14 09:20
oiaohmMS currently has just been killing departments.Jun 14 09:20
oiaohmWith no replacements.Jun 14 09:20
oiaohmThat is not a sign of a company going well.Jun 14 09:20
_Mutex__yes, lots of companies do that all the time, especially when times are a bit hard, (sort of like NOW).Jun 14 09:21
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oiaohmWhat hit them _Mutex__Jun 14 09:21
_Mutex__what hit MS ?Jun 14 09:21
DaemonMDVoiaohm: You must have been right about Firefox hitting a bunch of Linux kernel bugsJun 14 09:21
oiaohmMS has been dumping product to take back netbook and block markets to convert.Jun 14 09:21
chips_b_malroyThey will move most of their operations to India soon, and maintain the corporate headquarters in USA as long as possible, in order to maintain the illusion that they are an American company.Jun 14 09:21
DaemonMDVI just switched from Linux 2.6.29 to 2.6.30 and re-ran PeacekeeperJun 14 09:22
DaemonMDVFirefox went from 820 to 1004Jun 14 09:22
DaemonMDVstill not great, but lots betterJun 14 09:22
DaemonMDVat least it beats IE on Windows again :PJun 14 09:22
chips_b_malroyshillbombers need to goJun 14 09:22
oiaohmIts still hitting all the X11 bugs as well DaemonMDVJun 14 09:22
DaemonMDVheh, my only problem with Opera is it doesn't feel rightJun 14 09:23
DaemonMDVin GNOMEJun 14 09:23
DaemonMDVit feels much more native in KDEJun 14 09:23
oiaohm_Mutex__ the downturn really did not hit MS.  MS did.Jun 14 09:23
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oiaohmDumping product means you have less true sales.Jun 14 09:23
DaemonMDVwell, since it really doesn't cost Microsoft anything to give Windows awayJun 14 09:23
DaemonMDVand those people would have used LinuxJun 14 09:24
_Mutex__what you mean the almost world wide recession did not hit a consumer company like MS that sells to the general public, that does not have any money these daysJun 14 09:24
DaemonMDVit's really not any lost money to MicrosoftJun 14 09:24
DaemonMDVit's a customer that's hooked when they can payJun 14 09:24
chips_b_malroySeven will only sell on OEM new sales,  it still Vista and is entirely new machine depentant.Jun 14 09:24
oiaohm_Mutex__: how could Linux sales go up.Jun 14 09:24
oiaohmBoth are selling to consumers.Jun 14 09:24
oiaohmAustralia and quite a few other countries are not in recession.Jun 14 09:25
chips_b_malroyThis MS does not seem to understand, there will be no bump in sales from the release of Seven, if the recession has not slowedJun 14 09:25
_Mutex__oiaohm, I have no idea, but I would expect that not too many Linux'es are actually "SOLD".Jun 14 09:25
oiaohmThere are more being sold at moment.Jun 14 09:25
chips_b_malroywhat, 4 million people in Australia?Jun 14 09:25
_Mutex__time will tell on that one,Jun 14 09:25
oiaohmEven novell Linux section sold more.Jun 14 09:25
oiaohmSince the downturn started.Jun 14 09:26
_Mutex__23 million , close :)Jun 14 09:26
chips_b_malroykJun 14 09:26
oiaohmNovell recored a nice 25% growth in there Linux department.Jun 14 09:26
_Mutex__at the present time australia is the strongest economy in the western world, we had growth last quarter so we are not in an official recessionJun 14 09:27
oiaohmRedhat as recorded almost 200%Jun 14 09:27
oiaohmSomething is wrong.Jun 14 09:27
_Mutex__over what period of time ?Jun 14 09:27
oiaohmLast 3 months.Jun 14 09:27
_Mutex__200% in 3 months ??Jun 14 09:27
oiaohmIBM income has stayed level.Jun 14 09:28
oiaohmMS departments dropped.  Linux deparments went up.Jun 14 09:28
chips_b_malroyis it at the end of this month that MS comes out with another finical quarter?Jun 14 09:28
_Mutex__but relatively speeking based on size of profit and turnover, RH is still way way down there.Jun 14 09:29
_Mutex__and you say RHEL rose 200% in 3 months ?Jun 14 09:29
oiaohmRHEL has basically been in record sales since the down turn started.Jun 14 09:29
chips_b_malroyany predictions of that MS quarter coming up?  While I   would not wish their employees bad, I predict further layoffs.  Things are not getting better here in the USAJun 14 09:30
oiaohmThe downturn has not effect everyone _Mutex__Jun 14 09:30
oiaohmOnly selected companies have been hammered.Jun 14 09:31
chips_b_malroyand its not the same in all areas of the USA as wellJun 14 09:31
_Mutex__mabey give me a minute to confirmJun 14 09:31
chips_b_malroyexpect more cutting of programs, expect more layoffs soon at MSJun 14 09:32
chips_b_malroycoming soon this quarterJun 14 09:32
oiaohmMS has hit themselves.Jun 14 09:32
chips_b_malroyVista DRM is a dog, buyers resisted itJun 14 09:33
oiaohmMS got use to living off high profits per item.Jun 14 09:33
chips_b_malroySeven will not be much better as it is VistaJun 14 09:33
_Mutex__thats why there is only 180 million vista licenses in the wild i guess.Jun 14 09:33
chips_b_malroyLinux and Mac are cutting into desktop market share nowJun 14 09:33
oiaohmMS has been desporate to kill netbook linux's so they can lift windows price.Jun 14 09:34
oiaohmNow Linux's entering again with smartbooks.Jun 14 09:34
chips_b_malroyRoy, see, Mutex, shillbomberJun 14 09:34
chips_b_malroyoffers little to discussionJun 14 09:34
_Mutex__chips ?? why is that, Do I ask too many logical questions and ask for too many facts for you ?Jun 14 09:35
_Mutex__whats your problem ?Jun 14 09:35
oiaohm180 million licences is really not that many when you wake up Volume licences using XP downgrade mode is counted in that number.Jun 14 09:35
_Mutex__mabey not that many, but Canicial states they have 10 million ubuntu's out there, so its a bit more than that, for a failure its "seems" quite popular.Jun 14 09:36
oiaohmAnd anyone on software as a service still running XP also got counted.Jun 14 09:36
oiaohmSo real numbers of vista are way less.Jun 14 09:36
_Mutex__no, this is Vista licenses sold, no xp licensesJun 14 09:36
oiaohmVista licence on volume.Jun 14 09:37
oiaohmYou get sent out xp key and disks as well.Jun 14 09:37
oiaohmSo you don't order XP of course to be correct its not even on the list.Jun 14 09:37
_Mutex__how ever you count it , there are at least 180 vista's running on peoples computers,Jun 14 09:37
_Mutex__millionJun 14 09:37
oiaohm180 million licence sold.Jun 14 09:37
oiaohmNot 180 million running copies.Jun 14 09:37
chips_b_malroyXP sales are counted as Vista sales, this is what you are saying oiaohmJun 14 09:38
oiaohmYep.Jun 14 09:38
chips_b_malroytrueJun 14 09:38
_Mutex__1 year ago RHT was $22 and today they are $21Jun 14 09:38
chips_b_malroydowngrade rightsJun 14 09:38
_Mutex__NO they are NOT, sorry, this is a count of VISTA licenses NOT XP licenses. geezz.Jun 14 09:38
oiaohmThere is no difference between a Vista licence and a XP licence if you are build.Jun 14 09:39
chips_b_malroyyou see, Mutex is a MS shill, because he only argues the MS positionJun 14 09:39
oiaohmYou buy a vista user wants XP you use downgrade rights.Jun 14 09:39
oiaohmof vista to install it for customer.Jun 14 09:39
_Mutex__C'mon this is a COUNT OF VISTA's sold end of story, dont change the facts to fit your ideaJun 14 09:39
oiaohmso you don't have to try to remove the Vista licence sticker.Jun 14 09:39
oiaohmIt a count of windows licence sold that can install up to vista _Mutex__Jun 14 09:40
*DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 14 09:40
_Mutex__NOT ITS NOT,Jun 14 09:40
chips_b_malroymostly in some ways, you buy Vista and XP, so MS sells twiceJun 14 09:40
oiaohmJust like you can use XP licences to install 98 se.Jun 14 09:40
_Mutex__Its a count of the number of VISTA operating systems sold,, Geezz..Jun 14 09:40
oiaohmIt a count of vista licences.Jun 14 09:40
_Mutex__Its a count of VISTA OS'sJun 14 09:40
oiaohmProblem not all machines with vista license are running vista from factory.Jun 14 09:41
_Mutex__would you like me to link it for you so you can see for yourself ??Jun 14 09:41
oiaohmThe ones you buy from dell with Xp on most times they are vista licences.Jun 14 09:41
oiaohmNot XP licences.Jun 14 09:41
oiaohmMake it simpler for them.Jun 14 09:41
_Mutex__does NOT matter, MS got the money for the OS, its just like you saying Ununtu has 10 million users or 5 millino who downloaded it twiceJun 14 09:41
chips_b_malroyYou see Roy, its like you told Goblin, why feed the shills?  But yet you are doing so in this IRC channel.Jun 14 09:41
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oiaohmLot of Linux people also buy machine with windows on.Jun 14 09:42
_Mutex__sure chops is see facts are not your stong suitJun 14 09:42
oiaohmReason they are cheeper than withotu windows on.Jun 14 09:42
oiaohmBecause dell and others offset cost of windows with crapware.Jun 14 09:42
DaemonMDVMicrosoft counts sales of XP systems as Vista purchases that were "downgraded"Jun 14 09:43
oiaohmThat they get paid to install on the machines.Jun 14 09:43
DaemonMDVthen reports Vista salesJun 14 09:43
DaemonMDV;)Jun 14 09:43
_Mutex__NO THEY DONT im sorry but this time you are flat out wrong wrong wrong sorry,Jun 14 09:43
oiaohmYou can get a total of 200 dollars back from installing crap on machines.Jun 14 09:43
chips_b_malroydepends on the krapJun 14 09:43
oiaohmAll those trials and demos of stuff you get on new machines the maker is being paid.Jun 14 09:43
oiaohmThey don't put them on there for free.Jun 14 09:44
chips_b_malroyMS Office trial and Norton or McAffee antivirus, krapware that pays the mostJun 14 09:44
chips_b_malroy1 to 3 monthsJun 14 09:45
chips_b_malroynot worth the hassle to remove, which is not always easyJun 14 09:45
oiaohmAlso my downloads of distributions same with most australian would not turn up on Ubuntu count.Jun 14 09:45
chips_b_malroymaybe some wild tangent games, (infected sometimes as well)Jun 14 09:46
oiaohmFor the simple reason I download them from my local filemirror that don't count to my quota.Jun 14 09:46
_Mutex__anyone stupid enough to use norton or mcaffee needs to be shown how to secure ANY OS is 5 minutes, free, with basically zero overheadJun 14 09:46
oiaohm_Mutex__: OEM's put them there not for customer but because they get paidJun 14 09:46
chips_b_malroyno, they do get paidJun 14 09:47
oiaohmIts about 20 dollars to install a trial version of nortons or mcaffeeJun 14 09:47
_Mutex__I guess some do, the stupid ones.Jun 14 09:47
oiaohmAnd about 25 dollars if you buy a full version.Jun 14 09:47
chips_b_malroybut they don't call it krapware for nothingJun 14 09:48
chips_b_malroybetter off with a fresh install, but wait, dosen't MS only give u 3 installs now?Jun 14 09:48
oiaohmAlso you would notice dell don't provide standard vista or xp disk to do a clean restore with.Jun 14 09:49
_Mutex__only 3 installs ? yea rightJun 14 09:49
oiaohmSo any time you reinstall you get all the crapware back.Jun 14 09:49
chips_b_malroyI think notJun 14 09:49
oiaohm3 installs then you have ring MS to activate.Jun 14 09:49
chips_b_malroythat is what the OEM's putJun 14 09:49
schestowitzChanServ: just ignore shillsJun 14 09:50
_Mutex__or just get on the net like everyone elseJun 14 09:50
schestowitzThey chnage discussionsJun 14 09:50
schestowitzto gpl bashin, vista...Jun 14 09:50
chips_b_malroyI know someone who had to reinstall Vista 5 times b4 taking the laptop back and getting money backJun 14 09:50
*schestowitz eatsJun 14 09:50
chips_b_malroythey refused to give new serialJun 14 09:50
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chips_b_malroyand user said it crashed because of their bad driversJun 14 09:51
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oiaohmI am a registered system builder chips_b_malroyJun 14 09:51
chips_b_malroynever worked right, and user took it back (whole laptop) and got money back on all.Jun 14 09:52
oiaohmSo right quote MS number they unlock the bugger.Jun 14 09:52
oiaohmI forget non regestered don't get that.Jun 14 09:52
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chips_b_malroyyou can also tell them it their problem, which it is, and demand, yell, and swear at them, on the 4th and 5th reinstall, which works tooJun 14 09:53
oiaohmBad drivers are a major pain for Linux or Windows.Jun 14 09:53
oiaohmchips_b_malroy: mine simpler.Jun 14 09:53
chips_b_malroysure, but not anywhere as bad as VistaJun 14 09:53
oiaohmJust have to quote my system builder number.Jun 14 09:53
chips_b_malroyeven XP had some driver problems, but not too badJun 14 09:53
oiaohmand it very much ok unlocking now.Jun 14 09:53
oiaohmOr emailing out new key.Jun 14 09:54
oiaohmI love the emailing out new key bit.Jun 14 09:54
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chips_b_malroythis was all by phoneJun 14 09:54
DaemonMDVhmmmm, thats oddJun 14 09:54
DaemonMDVon 2.6.30, I can't mount video DVDsJun 14 09:54
oiaohmBy phone.Jun 14 09:54
DaemonMDVbut on 2.6.29, I canJun 14 09:54
chips_b_malroythe point being MS knew Vista was a problem, but still tryed to limit to 4 reinstallsJun 14 09:55
chips_b_malroy*3Jun 14 09:55
oiaohmOk that is strange I just inserted Daredevil here and it mounted DaemonMDVJun 14 09:55
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chips_b_malroyand theres Damon off on another tagentJun 14 09:55
DaemonMDVwant me to take screenshots?Jun 14 09:56
oiaohmThat something damon and me have been talking about chips_b_malroyJun 14 09:56
DaemonMDVit says invalid mount option and won't load the discJun 14 09:56
chips_b_malroykJun 14 09:56
oiaohmWhat is the video DaemonMDVJun 14 09:56
DaemonMDVI tried two discsJun 14 09:56
_Goblinhi all...Jun 14 09:56
DaemonMDVnon-video discs load fineJun 14 09:56
chips_b_malroyhi GoblinJun 14 09:56
_Goblinhi!Jun 14 09:57
*_Mutex__ is now known as _Mutex_Jun 14 09:57
chips_b_malroyMust be early on the other side of the pondJun 14 09:57
DaemonMDVwell, it's not like community provided kernels go through a quality control processJun 14 09:57
DaemonMDVthat's why they're in ContribJun 14 09:57
DaemonMDVso oh wellJun 14 09:57
_Mutex_7:15 PM here SundayJun 14 09:57
chips_b_malroySo Daemon, why did u, if you did, give up on Vista????Jun 14 09:58
oiaohmOk my eject button unmount now works DaemonMDVJun 14 09:58
DaemonMDVcause PC Guy's flashy sign told me toJun 14 09:58
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 09:58
chips_b_malroyexplain?  if u canJun 14 09:58
chips_b_malroyso I can learnJun 14 09:59
chips_b_malroywga get you?Jun 14 10:00
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 10:00
DaemonMDVhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRAUlK8_2VEJun 14 10:00
chips_b_malroyno utubeJun 14 10:00
oiaohmI build my own personally from source DaemonMDVJun 14 10:00
_Mutex_why would you want to know what OS someone is using ?Jun 14 10:00
DaemonMDVare you in Iran or something?Jun 14 10:00
chips_b_malroynot letting u get off that easyJun 14 10:01
chips_b_malroyu a big windose fan, explain it to usJun 14 10:01
oiaohm_Mutex_: knowing what OS people are using is handy as a developer so you can fix problems in the one most users are using.Jun 14 10:01
chips_b_malroyI would have accepted wgaJun 14 10:01
_Mutex_well you explain yourself for us first :)Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVI don't have to deal with WGA even while in VistaJun 14 10:02
_Mutex_what are you using and why ?Jun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroyif u pirated it maybeJun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVmy license turns it offJun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroyor cracked itJun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVthe product activator also never crops upJun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVno matter what hardware I swap in or outJun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 10:02
_Mutex_wga never seen it , or drm for that matterJun 14 10:02
DaemonMDVSLPJun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroyexplainJun 14 10:02
oiaohmMy machine is a little strange.  its part ubuntu part debian part fedora part centos at moment.Jun 14 10:03
oiaohmAnd that is running at the current moment.Jun 14 10:03
chips_b_malroyDaemon, and oiaohm, I still maintain XP for malware programs, as I fix windows computers from time to time.Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDVa SLIC/SLP license will turn Windows activation and WGA offJun 14 10:04
DaemonMDVthe user never has to deal with themJun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroyits a CRACKJun 14 10:04
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 10:04
DaemonMDVit's a GatewayJun 14 10:04
oiaohmI normally deal with XP malware from Linux.Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroycrackJun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroyOEM CRACKJun 14 10:04
DaemonMDVno, it's an OEM machineJun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroywhat I saidJun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroyPirateJun 14 10:05
_Mutex_I normally deal with XP malware saying "I dont have any, So now ill do something interesting"Jun 14 10:05
oiaohmNot all users are smart _Mutex_Jun 14 10:05
oiaohmAs techs we see the idiots the most.Jun 14 10:06
_Mutex_thats true,Jun 14 10:06
_Mutex_yes we do I agree,Jun 14 10:06
oiaohmI use to laugh about the coffee cup holder joke until I saw my first one.Jun 14 10:06
chips_b_malroymost cannot update their antivirus, and let it lapseJun 14 10:06
oiaohmSadly I still see it from time to time.Jun 14 10:06
chips_b_malroyI see that all the timeJun 14 10:06
DaemonMDVPaul Frields says the patent questions surrounding Mono unnerve themJun 14 10:06
_Mutex_well my mom can update her AV software and install and run FF and she's 70Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDVI think they just want to have an excuse to ditch competitors productsJun 14 10:07
chips_b_malroyand, they cannot save their passwordsJun 14 10:07
DaemonMDVif they were that concerned, Mono never would have been in Fedora to begin withJun 14 10:07
DaemonMDVmuch less lasted what, like 4-5 versions now?Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDVit's been there a whileJun 14 10:07
chips_b_malroyPirate Daemon is back without explanation I seeJun 14 10:07
_Mutex_but yes, i too have seen ancient Notons incredably out of date on some poor saps machine.Jun 14 10:08
DaemonMDVyou can't tell me that something with that many red flags didn't have Red Hat Legal wondering 3 years agoJun 14 10:08
oiaohmDefine ancient.Jun 14 10:08
DaemonMDVwhy suddenly worry about it?Jun 14 10:08
oiaohmI had a customer coming in the other day wanting to install nortons 1.0 on XP.Jun 14 10:08
_Mutex_But still no problem, quick clean of crap, quick install of AVGFree, invoice customer, go homeJun 14 10:08
_Mutex_Job doneJun 14 10:08
DaemonMDVyeah, no shortage of work fixing WindowsJun 14 10:08
_Mutex_well there is alot of emJun 14 10:09
DaemonMDVif they ever got rid of Windows, thousands of jobs cleaning up after spyware would be lostJun 14 10:09
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDVperhaps tens of thousandsJun 14 10:09
_Mutex_not for me, every customer I attend is fixed, and fixed for good.Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDVentire industry dedicated to changing Windows' dirty diapersJun 14 10:09
_Mutex_and yes, if they have similar problems I return call for free, (but I never have to do that).Jun 14 10:10
DaemonMDVthat's bullshitJun 14 10:10
DaemonMDVyou're a parasiteJun 14 10:10
DaemonMDVripping off the ignorant and ill-informedJun 14 10:10
_Mutex_mabey for you it is my 'friend'Jun 14 10:10
_Mutex_im sorry im me being good at my job offends you, (well actually im not) but I thought I would say that anywayJun 14 10:11
DaemonMDVyou don't exactly do anythingJun 14 10:11
chips_b_malroyyou see oiohm, after a while you tire of fighting the shillbombers.  Even after you corner one, that he cracked or pirated the OS, and he just changes the subject, as any MS Shill would.Jun 14 10:11
DaemonMDVyou take advantage of peopleJun 14 10:11
_Mutex_I do whats needed to satisify the customer, I leave them with a working and secure OS and an inviation to call me should you have further problemsJun 14 10:12
DaemonMDVWhy don't you go file a fraudulant welfare claim or somethingJun 14 10:12
DaemonMDVat least that's one step up on the ethics ladderJun 14 10:12
_Mutex_I provide a service THEY ask for and get, you know, its sort of what Red Hat does, but I guesss its ok for them right ?Jun 14 10:12
chips_b_malroyDaemon does not understand what "free" software really is.  He thinks pirating windows software is "free' software, but its not.Jun 14 10:12
_Mutex_Daemon thats a touch childishJun 14 10:13
chips_b_malroyIt is free, but its not really freeJun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV does not raid ships at sea, kill the crew and steal their VistaJun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV has no idea what they are talking aboutJun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV is confusedJun 14 10:13
chips_b_malroyexplain pleaseJun 14 10:13
_Mutex_oh yea, I also maintained Linux systems as well, were they poor saps I was ripping off?Jun 14 10:13
oiaohmOk _Mutex_ how often does a correctly setup Linux box need work.Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDVif everything ran on Linux, 90% of his work would disappearJun 14 10:14
_Mutex_quite often sometimes,Jun 14 10:14
oiaohmEven if users are installing applications.Jun 14 10:14
chips_b_malroyAnyway, Roy, I made my point, if you let the shillbombers run over the IRC channel, the other users will leave.Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDVassuming he even knows how to do anything other than install freeware antivirusJun 14 10:14
oiaohmI find very little _Mutex_Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDVand bill the customer $70Jun 14 10:14
_Mutex_chops you have a problem with the truth ?Jun 14 10:15
_Mutex_or logic?Jun 14 10:15
oiaohmYou don't have the windows problem of slowing down over time.Jun 14 10:15
chips_b_malroynice you call me chops, on MS Watch they had close namesJun 14 10:15
oiaohmWith the Linux systems.Jun 14 10:15
chips_b_malroyMS shill taticJun 14 10:15
DaemonMDVoiaohm: You have to admit there has to be a better way to do settings than gconf filesJun 14 10:16
oiaohmLinux systems normally slow down a little for about 4 months then they level off.Jun 14 10:16
_Mutex_sorry o and i are right next to each other, unfortunate typ0Jun 14 10:16
DaemonMDVbut at least it's not a huge binary mass called a registry that's sensitize to paths changingJun 14 10:16
DaemonMDVand whatnotJun 14 10:16
oiaohmRegistries not good either DaemonMDV.Jun 14 10:16
chips_b_malroythe registary is terrible problem, the conf files in linux are far far superiorJun 14 10:16
oiaohmgconf is not the woset or the best.Jun 14 10:17
DaemonMDVunless the power goes outJun 14 10:17
DaemonMDVand it forgets to write them to diskJun 14 10:17
DaemonMDVwhich Ext4 exposedJun 14 10:17
chips_b_malroyhow about just conf as I use KDEJun 14 10:17
oiaohmAnd I have a lazy solution.Jun 14 10:17
_Mutex_what a huge bunch of blobs of text files are better the a BD ? mabey, but debatableJun 14 10:17
DaemonMDVwell really XFS did, but more people were using Ext3 and got hit with that problem with Ext4Jun 14 10:17
_Mutex_DB not bdJun 14 10:17
oiaohmThere is a shell on my boxs that user selects and it copies defaults in.Jun 14 10:17
oiaohmOr restores from last working backup.Jun 14 10:18
chips_b_malroyRegistary is also getting hosed with malware, or crashing so bad that windows cannot startJun 14 10:18
oiaohmgconf failure is not a major issue.Jun 14 10:18
chips_b_malroynot an issure as conf only mostly affects indiviual programs in nixJun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroyregristray in windows is major problemJun 14 10:19
_Mutex_does the registary do that does it, Hmm, never seen that beforeJun 14 10:19
_Mutex_and ive seen alot of computers,Jun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroyyesJun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroygoogle itJun 14 10:19
oiaohmI have even seen the complete directory that the registries should be in contain no files.Jun 14 10:19
_Mutex_Oh ok, mabey you need some lessons on Windows systems maintenance, oiaohm do you have lots of registary problems on your win boxes y ou fix.Jun 14 10:20
oiaohmBecause the crash lined up with the directory data write on ntfs.Jun 14 10:20
chips_b_malroylots of programs out there that claim to fix or recover corrupted/bad regristaries in windowsJun 14 10:20
chips_b_malroythey cannot mostlyJun 14 10:20
oiaohmI do data recovery _Mutex_Jun 14 10:20
oiaohmI get the worst of the worst.Jun 14 10:20
_Mutex_yes, so do i, and I still have not seen it, I spent years working for a major bank in Aus over 800 branches, and we never had that problem on thousands of machinesJun 14 10:21
oiaohmMost often registry repairs are cleaned up boy lowers.Jun 14 10:21
_Mutex_Actually contracting for IBM, maintaining the banking NT system.Jun 14 10:22
chips_b_malroyRoy needs to weed out the Windows Shills and Linsux shills from this IRC channelJun 14 10:22
oiaohmXP _Mutex_ SP1 is known for it.Jun 14 10:22
_Mutex_and anyone you dont agree with ?Jun 14 10:22
DaemonMDVNovell is now prioritizing Ubuntu packagesJun 14 10:22
DaemonMDVfor Banshee betasJun 14 10:22
_Mutex_xp sp1, ?? why would you use that ?Jun 14 10:22
DaemonMDVthey get them and OpenSuse get themJun 14 10:22
oiaohmIt is just more likely to do it _Mutex_Jun 14 10:23
_Mutex_sure.Jun 14 10:23
oiaohmIts write order releated.Jun 14 10:23
oiaohmMost cases it does not hit the registries.Jun 14 10:23
_Mutex_but it must be very very rare,  im no spring chicken, ive been around the block a few hundred times, and its rare, i know it isJun 14 10:23
oiaohmYou know the ones where folder was full and next day nothing.Jun 14 10:23
oiaohmYou run repair and files come back.Jun 14 10:24
oiaohmAs if nothing was wrong.Jun 14 10:24
chips_b_malroyu think, always?  LOLJun 14 10:24
oiaohmThat every now and again it get the registry.Jun 14 10:24
oiaohmSo you cannot boot and windows installer will not repair.Jun 14 10:24
chips_b_malroyI think windows is a way to hose up, sometimes it can run and boot up for 3 years, and other times, it boot for 3 months and crashes on same computerJun 14 10:25
chips_b_malroybut Linux just runs and runsJun 14 10:25
chips_b_malroywindows is just not stable, its like playing Russian RouletteJun 14 10:26
oiaohmI have only seen registry to the disappear without help twice once in 1999 with NT4 and 8 months ago with XP.Jun 14 10:26
chips_b_malroyI have seem it many many timesJun 14 10:26
oiaohmThere are ways you can force it to happen.Jun 14 10:26
_Mutex_mabey, but I find its totally stable, makes me wonder what your doing wrong ?Jun 14 10:26
_Mutex_chips do you use windows regularly ?Jun 14 10:27
oiaohmAlso the chkdsk normally picks up the stuffed directories.Jun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroyI don't jave the shill versionJun 14 10:27
_Mutex_or have you used it since win95 ?Jun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroyI guessJun 14 10:27
oiaohmMost people who suffer from disappearing directories skip chkdskJun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroyI stopped at xpJun 14 10:27
_GoblinIm unfortunately still using it (Vista) albeit at work.Jun 14 10:28
oiaohmDefect hidden from view _Mutex_Jun 14 10:28
oiaohmBut it is a sitting time bomb.Jun 14 10:28
_GoblinI've been with Windows since 3.1Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_so you have not used XP much either ?Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_sp2 ?Jun 14 10:28
_Goblinwho me?Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_chipsJun 14 10:28
_GoblinahJun 14 10:28
oiaohmMost of my recovery work is done on Linux _Mutex_Jun 14 10:29
chips_b_malroythe regristary usually crashes from two things, malware, and bad sectors on the hard drives, but other things can crash it as wellJun 14 10:29
oiaohm_Mutex_: something can appear stable but be repairing it self like mad in background.Jun 14 10:30
chips_b_malroyGoblin, I am an old fart and go back, way back into the Dos daysJun 14 10:30
_Mutex_he's just saying Win is crashing on him all the time, this is NOT normal operation for windows xp and beyond at all, therefore you may be doing something wrong with your sys-admin or you just dont have any experience with a stable version of windows such as xp, vista or win7, but there is nothing wrong with not using them, but there is commenting on them, to people who know differentJun 14 10:30
oiaohmI have XP run stable for a while.Jun 14 10:31
oiaohmMajor problem I run into as a system admin is slow down.Jun 14 10:31
_Mutex_me too, a little while like 8 years :)Jun 14 10:31
_GoblinI go back to the DOS days, although I had an affair with the A500 and didn't really hit Windows until 3.1Jun 14 10:31
chips_b_malroywho said its crashing all the time?Jun 14 10:31
_GoblinI believe my first real PC experience was with COBOL and Dbase IVJun 14 10:31
_Mutex_ahh, you remember GOMF ?? i loved  my a500Jun 14 10:31
chips_b_malroyI said it can, crash as often as three monthsJun 14 10:31
_Goblingreat times...Jun 14 10:32
chips_b_malroyOnce got 3 years of heavy use out of XPJun 14 10:32
oiaohmParticular hardware combinations are particular bad for XP.Jun 14 10:32
oiaohmLike the machine I have here.Jun 14 10:32
_GoblinIve just had a week of Netbook XP.Jun 14 10:32
oiaohmI got motherboard for nothing because it was driving a tech in a business nuts.Jun 14 10:32
_Mutex_mine was disassembling machine code from a 2708 1K ROM which contained PIPBUG that was the "operationg system" for your 2K ram 1Mhz 2650 cpu and teletype I/O, and mid 1978Jun 14 10:32
chips_b_malroyI talking about the same hardware oiaohmJun 14 10:33
oiaohmPut XP on it you could almost bet inside 4 days it will not have a operational sound card.Jun 14 10:33
_GoblinI think thats a little before my time...Jun 14 10:33
_Mutex_LOLJun 14 10:33
oiaohmThe machine was being uses to teach a multi media class.Jun 14 10:33
chips_b_malroyGoblin, Dos 3.21 here startedJun 14 10:33
oiaohmSo you can guess how that was working.Jun 14 10:33
DaemonMDVI've thought about trying the Ubuntu testing branch, but I've lived on that beforeJun 14 10:33
_Goblinis there anyone here under the age of 30?Jun 14 10:34
_GoblinIf not it makes me feel better.Jun 14 10:34
chips_b_malroyGoblin, this stte is starting to look like MS Watch, sadJun 14 10:34
oiaohmLinux on it works perfectly not a single issue  _Mutex_Jun 14 10:34
_Mutex_first "electronic" keyboard I had, i soldered the keys onto a piece of vero board, and hard wired it to the Chips address and data buss, then I had to assemble machine code to scan the keys and do the biz.Jun 14 10:34
_Goblinwhich site?Jun 14 10:34
chips_b_malroyBNJun 14 10:34
oiaohmA single batch of machine with windows can drive you up wall.  _Mutex_Jun 14 10:35
_Goblinreally?  In what way? you mean FUD comments?Jun 14 10:35
_Mutex_I have no issue with linux in some applications its the perfect tool for the job.Jun 14 10:35
_Goblin* by othersJun 14 10:35
oiaohmThis machine is completely creative it uninstalls sound driver while its in use _Mutex_Jun 14 10:35
oiaohmOn XP and Vista.Jun 14 10:35
chips_b_malroyyou think I am too hard on them?Jun 14 10:35
oiaohmIts some form of hardware glitch same model motherboard does not do the same thing _Mutex_Jun 14 10:36
chips_b_malroymaybe, but I get tired of the FUDJun 14 10:36
_GoblinI don't think youre too hard...We are talking about IT so its not like its personal.Jun 14 10:37
_Mutex_chips, the way you fix that is to become informed, because facts arnt fud.Jun 14 10:37
chips_b_malroyno, its notJun 14 10:37
chips_b_malroy*GoblinJun 14 10:38
chips_b_malroyits not personalJun 14 10:38
oiaohmLot of large windows deployments using image installs to quicky recover the odd machine that goes strange with windows.Jun 14 10:39
chips_b_malroylike with Daemon, it was pirated.  The point was not to accuse him of being a pirate, which I could care less.  The point was, its not really "free" software.Jun 14 10:39
oiaohmOnly things I ever pirated was dos and a few games.Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroybeside the pointJun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroybut honest anwserJun 14 10:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Even though its still in Beta, I'm very impressed with Chrome on Linux...Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroy10 pointsJun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroyChrome is fast fastJun 14 10:41
chips_b_malroyI respect honesty oialhmJun 14 10:41
oiaohmMost of the games I pirated I have bought since.Jun 14 10:41
oiaohmData recovery means I see lot of strange things.Jun 14 10:42
chips_b_malroyonly play a few games, seldom in factJun 14 10:42
oiaohm1 in a billion seams common.Jun 14 10:42
_Mutex_it is especially if you are the 1 :)Jun 14 10:43
oiaohmI guess you have not see dell servers that you can reboot just by inserting a particular brand usb key.Jun 14 10:43
oiaohmWith windows 2003Jun 14 10:43
chips_b_malroyThe point I was trying to make with Daemon, was he could not see the difference in "free" pirated windows and really "free" GNU/LinuxJun 14 10:43
oiaohmDud batch if usb controllers.Jun 14 10:44
chips_b_malroyas both are free for Daemon and many windose usersJun 14 10:44
_Mutex_its the difference between free to steal and free to use,Jun 14 10:44
*DaemonMDV has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 14 10:45
oiaohmAnd the difference between having to spend time paying for it.Jun 14 10:45
_Mutex_Ive got nothing against pirating, but like oiaohm i never find the necessityJun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroybut there is major differences, just like there is differences in the licences in the underlying Mono dependaciesJun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroygood for u, MutexJun 14 10:45
oiaohmIn my mind most people are bratsJun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroynot that I really care who pirates MSJun 14 10:46
oiaohmThey must have the brand name shoe kind of brats.Jun 14 10:46
oiaohmSo they never look at anything else.Jun 14 10:46
chips_b_malroyits not like I work for M$Jun 14 10:46
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oiaohmYou know the one nikes on shelf but since rebocks are not there they are not having the shoes.Jun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroyTrue, brand name.  Linux is sort of generic, in that its free.  But MS costs a bundle, sorry for the puncJun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroy*[undJun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroypundJun 14 10:47
oiaohmAlso the idea that the higher the price the better the item should be stupidity.Jun 14 10:48
_Mutex_its costs some, but far from "a bundle".Jun 14 10:48
oiaohmPrice does not equal quality.Jun 14 10:48
chips_b_malroy$400 for ultimate boxed version when it first came out, I would say that is a "bundle."Jun 14 10:48
_Mutex_generally speaking it does,, but yes, not necessaralyJun 14 10:49
oiaohmHeck if MS OS matched there sales pitches over the years we would be virus free.Jun 14 10:49
chips_b_malroyor $399Jun 14 10:49
_Mutex_$120 for win Xp , over 8 years of use $1.56 per month, less that a cup of coffeeJun 14 10:49
oiaohmXP total predicted life was 10 years.Jun 14 10:49
chips_b_malroyu sound just like a MS saleman, or shillJun 14 10:49
_Mutex_why because I can add ?Jun 14 10:50
_Goblinhe's a little late if he is....I don't think MS wants to sell XP anymore ;)Jun 14 10:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I don't think it will be long before the Beta of #Chrome is at a point where I can replace #Firefox (sorry FF)Jun 14 10:50
_Mutex_its also not 8 years ago anymore eitherJun 14 10:50
chips_b_malroyno, because u changed the subject from vista at $399 to XPJun 14 10:50
oiaohmWindows has not followed normal cycle.Jun 14 10:50
magentarthe russian law that may force ms to continue selling XP for 50 years or so is quite funnyJun 14 10:51
oiaohmBy now MS would have predide lack of applications would have forced you out of XP _Mutex_Jun 14 10:51
_Mutex_vista happen to cost me $120 as well, I dont know where you shop from, but stop it :)Jun 14 10:51
_Mutex_your being rippedJun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroythey will continue to sell xp, watchJun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroybut not for 50 yearsJun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroyits the only thing they have that works on most netbooksJun 14 10:52
*Eruaran has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 14 10:52
chips_b_malroythey cannot drop itJun 14 10:52
_Mutex_except Win7 and Vista virtulise xp, and most xp stuff works anyway, non issueJun 14 10:52
oiaohmvirtulised does not run 3d games well.Jun 14 10:52
magentaryes, win7 is even worse for netbooks. the 64bit edition uses 1,7gb ram now when it boots up instead of 1,2 gb like vistaJun 14 10:52
_Mutex_Win7 has less overhead that xpJun 14 10:52
oiaohmIf that was so Win7 should work in 256 megs of ram _Mutex_Jun 14 10:53
oiaohmIt don't.Jun 14 10:53
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oiaohmIf reactos can get there act in order they could take the lower market from MS.Jun 14 10:53
_Mutex_Im running win7 on a crappy old compaq (right now), it replaced xp, and its lots faster, and crisper, with aero on the lot.Jun 14 10:54
_Mutex_thats just personal experience, but its how it is.Jun 14 10:54
oiaohmReally faster or just feels faster.Jun 14 10:54
chips_b_malroyforget ReactOS, wine is react, and wine is betterJun 14 10:54
_Mutex_really faster,Jun 14 10:54
oiaohmBenched.Jun 14 10:54
oiaohmwindows 7 does a few things that make it feel faster.Jun 14 10:55
oiaohmLinux also has been doing things that make it feel slower.Jun 14 10:55
chips_b_malroyso why u here Mutex, if you such a Vista lover?  Just trolling Roys site or what?Jun 14 10:55
_Mutex_but its both the same, its hard to determine how fast, as damn fast well fast enough for me to be happy ( and im critical)Jun 14 10:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] listening to Romeo Knights greatest A500 demo scene track........Jun 14 10:55
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_Mutex_Chips, why do you care ?Jun 14 10:55
chips_b_malroyI am curiousJun 14 10:56
_Mutex_because you dont agree with me, does that me I should go ?Jun 14 10:56
oiaohmWindows 7 uses graphic card to smooth out rendering.Jun 14 10:56
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_Mutex_do i present a too logical argument for you,, whats the problem ??Jun 14 10:56
MinceRchips_b_malroy: he's here because nobody banned him yet :>Jun 14 10:56
oiaohmX11 causes sections of the interface to be drawn at slightly different times like XP does a bit making it feel slower.Jun 14 10:56
oiaohmBasically the more actions you see the slower it fells.Jun 14 10:56
_Mutex_yes, i expect win7 is starting to make more use of teh GPUJun 14 10:56
oiaohmBeing left hanging also makes something fell slower.Jun 14 10:57
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chips_b_malroyI wonder when u cannot acknowledge when u lose a point, like the $399.  I wonder why u love Vista/Seven.  Why not ask?Jun 14 10:57
oiaohmWin 7 shows more clearly than XP that application is on way.Jun 14 10:57
oiaohmSo you don't notice time as much.Jun 14 10:57
_Mutex_you want me to prove you paid $300 for vista, or do you want me to prove I paid $120 for it ?Jun 14 10:57
oiaohmThese are all trick to bend human mind.Jun 14 10:57
magentari used win7 alot on a very fast pc, it still feels much slower than XP, in fact pretty much the same like vista. it's like there has not been any innovation.Jun 14 10:58
oiaohmHuman mind is one of the worst time measures on earth.Jun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroyI could care less what u paid as u well knowJun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroyas u changed the point againJun 14 10:58
_GoblinPC Advisor has done comparisons with XP/Vista/7....Jun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroyjust like Andre would doJun 14 10:58
_Mutex_my point was simple, it was you said it cost a "bundle" I said, that $1.56 is not that much of a bundle (at least to me its not).Jun 14 10:58
_Goblinits reporting only a 3 second boot difference between XP and 7...Jun 14 10:58
_Mutex_you might think thats alot, IdontJun 14 10:58
_Goblinand in other tests XP is outperforming 7Jun 14 10:59
_Goblinespecially in the area of DX.Jun 14 10:59
chips_b_malroyno, I think $399 isJun 14 10:59
oiaohm_Mutex_:  the difference is you had to pay for windows over months it price tag would not be important.Jun 14 10:59
magentarit's not really about the messurable performance, but how the os reacts to user commands, how snappy it is etc. win7 is very bad in that areaJun 14 10:59
_Mutex_dana I think it was on zdnet did an extensive series of benchmarks between XP, vista, and win7, generally win7 (as y ou would expect) came out on top overall for performanceJun 14 11:00
oiaohmSince you have to pay for it all at once you still have to find money.Jun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroyMutex, is $399 too much for Vista Ultimate when it came out??????????Jun 14 11:00
oiaohmNot with DX _Mutex_Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_if you wan the link, ill dig it up, but im sure you can tooJun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroysecond time I asked uJun 14 11:00
oiaohmThe path in Vista is longer.Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_In my books it is.Jun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroythank youJun 14 11:00
_Mutex_But its not that much here,Jun 14 11:00
_Goblintrue, but if MS are pushing it as the Ultimate Windows version, then I think the tests PC Advisor have done are very telling..Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_did you pay $399 ?Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_or would you have too ?Jun 14 11:01
_Mutex_I dont its far cheaper than that,Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroyI did not buy it or put it on my machinesJun 14 11:01
oiaohmIf game is optimsied to take advantage of DX 10+ it can be slightly faster than XP due to DX 10 instruction queing.Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroyI never willJun 14 11:01
_Mutex_So why quote the $399 price ? or is that just a plucked figure ?Jun 14 11:01
oiaohm399 is the recommend retail.Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroyno Its realJun 14 11:01
oiaohmThat a lot if idiots will pay.Jun 14 11:02
_Mutex_not here its not,Jun 14 11:02
chips_b_malroyUSA when it came outJun 14 11:02
oiaohm_Mutex_:  no one should pay recommend retail.Jun 14 11:02
_Mutex_yes it is alot, thankfully thats NOT the price.Jun 14 11:02
_Goblintrue, but having looked at the various benchmarks I dont believe 7 is such a polished Vista as we were led to believe....maybe lipstick on the pig was a little bit of a compliment to 7...Jun 14 11:02
chips_b_malroynot now, MS reduced the price,as it was not sellingJun 14 11:02
_Mutex_I dont think win7 is a polished vista either, ive used both and they are as different as linux 2.4 and 2.6Jun 14 11:03
chips_b_malroyYes Goblin, Seven is just Vista with lipstickJun 14 11:03
chips_b_malroybut you seem to have an agenda Mutex, is this true?Jun 14 11:03
_Mutex_its more than that I assue you, and chip you have admitted you have not used vista or win7 !!Jun 14 11:04
MinceRvista sp7Jun 14 11:04
_GoblinTalking of paying.....I refuse to buy anything from any company that says on its advert "We recommend Windows Vista"...if a company recommends Vista then it obviously has no knowledge or experience in the field of IT.Jun 14 11:04
MinceRchips_b_malroy: he'll never admit it, he'll just change the subject :)Jun 14 11:04
chips_b_malroyno true again MutexJun 14 11:04
_Mutex_well its not win7 is NOT vista, they are MILES different, in structure and functionJun 14 11:04
_Mutex_and performanceJun 14 11:04
MinceR_Goblin: they're very hard to avoidJun 14 11:04
chips_b_malroyI did not say I have never used it, only that I did not buy itJun 14 11:04
_GoblinMiles in what way?Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_you said you stoped using windows at xpJun 14 11:05
_Goblinin terms of the buying user...Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_differentJun 14 11:05
chips_b_malroyminceR, agreed, Roy needs to boot someJun 14 11:05
_Mutex_sorry chips again, what part of these facts are you having problems with ?Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_I would love to knowJun 14 11:05
chips_b_malroytypical MS shill, trys to put words into your mouth and change the meaning entirelyJun 14 11:05
_Mutex_well you put your own words and explain it to me pleaseJun 14 11:06
chips_b_malroyyou don't have to "buy" Vista or Seven to use itJun 14 11:06
_Mutex_but I wont lower myself to that standard of calling someone you dont agree with a shrillJun 14 11:06
_Mutex_anyway, im a troll not a shrill.Jun 14 11:06
chips_b_malroythen don't put word in my mouth pleaseJun 14 11:06
_Goblintroll? I'm sorry I disagree.Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroyat least you admit you are a trollJun 14 11:07
_Mutex_well you can put your own in anytime, feel freeJun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroynoJun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroyits not on my machine, I am not a pirateJun 14 11:07
oiaohm_Mutex_: so far benchmarks on Windows 7 says it perform basically the same as Vista.Jun 14 11:07
_Mutex_I disagree too goblin, im just trying to humer chips who seems to be getting a touch upset and the logical reasoning !Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroyI work on computers, rememberJun 14 11:07
oiaohmMost of the difference is fell.Jun 14 11:07
_GoblinRegardless of your motives/opinions I think you add to the conversation here.  There would be nothing worse than a group of users in a chat room all agreeing with each other....Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroyI clean malware off themJun 14 11:07
oiaohmRemoving the UAC nags helped the feel.Jun 14 11:08
_Mutex__Goblin thankyou, I could not agree more. :)Jun 14 11:08
chips_b_malroyUnlike you Goblin, I think Andre did not add to the conversation, and neither does Mutex or the linsux bunchJun 14 11:08
chips_b_malroyexcept in a humorus wayJun 14 11:09
_Mutex_you are welcome to your opinion, but I would prefer is you explained your reasons why you take issue with me ?Jun 14 11:09
chips_b_malroyI already didJun 14 11:09
oiaohm_Mutex_: do you have benchmarks showing difference.Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_ok, because I put words in your mouth ? and how do I do that pray tell ?Jun 14 11:10
oiaohmOr is it just feel  _Mutex_Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_Ill find em, hang on.Jun 14 11:10
oiaohmIt would be interesting to know where the difference are.Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_keeping in mind its win7 beta against RTM xp and vista.Jun 14 11:10
oiaohmhttp://www.eofw.org/bench/  Its like number 7 on this bench yep 600 mhz machine beating a 3000 mhz machine.Jun 14 11:11
oiaohmParticular work loads show different alterations.Jun 14 11:13
_Mutex_is thatnot a benchmark only for rendering ?Jun 14 11:13
oiaohmIt a benchmark for render farms.Jun 14 11:14
oiaohmIt a particular workload.Jun 14 11:14
chips_b_malroyGoblin, I am still working on the secure windows article for uJun 14 11:14
_Mutex_a bit specialised, and not really across the board test,Jun 14 11:15
oiaohmIts not like a 600 mhz x64 core machine is going to win against a 3000mhz in every test.Jun 14 11:15
_Mutex_but still valid for what it is.Jun 14 11:15
_Mutex_exactlyJun 14 11:15
oiaohmEvery bench mark tests different kinds of work load.Jun 14 11:15
oiaohmThere is no such thing as a the pefect bechmark that tests every thing.Jun 14 11:16
_Mutex_thats why its generally a suite of tests.Jun 14 11:16
oiaohmEven a suiteJun 14 11:16
_Mutex_to evaluate all functions.Jun 14 11:16
oiaohmIt can still not cause bottle neck events just by call order.Jun 14 11:16
oiaohmReason why all benchs are taken with a grain of salt.  And why when having a bench showing something different to others is interesting.Jun 14 11:17
oiaohmIts normally pointing to a particular workflow having an advantage.  The question is what one.Jun 14 11:17
_Mutex_ofcourse, and they can be turned to suit as well, the best way, is to try it.Jun 14 11:18
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oiaohmbasically all the benchs I have seen so far point to vista and windows 7 being the same.Jun 14 11:18
oiaohmThat is why if you have different it interest me.Jun 14 11:18
oiaohmWhat did the rest miss.Jun 14 11:19
_Mutex_http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-255234.html this is not the one I was looking for as it has xp and vista this one does not, ill keep lookingJun 14 11:20
oiaohmcinebench I depend on for graphical stuff is slower in that benchmark set on windows 7.  Interesting little bit of general usage gain.Jun 14 11:23
_Mutex_dont forget its build 6956, its over 7100 now,Jun 14 11:24
_Mutex_and the later builds are fasterJun 14 11:24
_Mutex_my vista is build 6002Jun 14 11:24
oiaohmhttp://vimeo.com/5137477  << thinking I am hoping to be using this in release form before Windows 7 is released.Jun 14 11:45
_Goblinsorry I was afk for a while...Chips it'll be up on the site as soon as you send it!Jun 14 11:53
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Best tech news story ever: http://bit.ly/1n6yDJun 14 12:20
kentma_Mutex_: I really haven't the slightest interest in your, or any other, vista build.  This channel is not concerned with such things.Jun 14 12:27
_Mutex_that was an hour ago !!, we'll picked :)Jun 14 12:27
kentmaThis channels' function hasn't changed in the last hour.Jun 14 12:28
kentmaor the last day, or week, or month, etc.Jun 14 12:28
_Mutex_im sure this channel is also not really concerned with what your interests are either.Jun 14 12:28
_Mutex_I know it hasnt.Jun 14 12:28
kentmaschestowitz: Roy, you need to come in on the dyndns interface - something is up with the demon one (again).Jun 14 12:30
_Mutex_mabey I should pop up and have a random poke at someone in this channel for something to do :) hey kentma ??Jun 14 12:33
kentmaschestowitz: I don't really know why I pay for it sometimes...Jun 14 12:33
schestowitzOhJun 14 12:34
schestowitzLet me see what was said...Jun 14 12:34
kentmaschestowitz: it's the demon interface down (again).  You need to come in on the otherone.Jun 14 12:34
schestowitzI see...Jun 14 12:35
schestowitzI have 2/3 routes inJun 14 12:35
schestowitzThanks for letting me knowJun 14 12:35
kentmano worries.Jun 14 12:35
schestowitzBTW, the trolls can probably be kickedJun 14 12:35
schestowitzIt's part of that troll site Gary likesJun 14 12:35
schestowitzlinusxxJun 14 12:35
kentmaoh I see what you mean.  I was talking about my server...Jun 14 12:36
kentmasorry for the confusion!Jun 14 12:36
*_Goblin has quit ("Lost terminal")Jun 14 12:37
schestowitzThere's an attempt to diffuse hereJun 14 12:47
schestowitzSince about 9 days agoJun 14 12:47
schestowitzIt could be related to other abuses against the site. Now I know what PJ means when she becomes babysitter.Jun 14 12:48
schestowitzI'll post some Linux news tonightJun 14 12:49
schestowitz"UN approves 'unprecedented' sanctions against North Korea over nuclear test" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/12/un-north-korea-nuclear-sanctionsJun 14 12:52
schestowitz"PC firms face China decree" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25603145-36375,00.htmlJun 14 12:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Wall Street’s Toxic Message" http://ping.fm/UUC4uJun 14 12:55
schestowitz"Microsoft Updates Windows Vista With Service Pack 2"Jun 14 12:58
schestowitz"Microsoft Will Offer Windows 7 Upgrade with Vista, Announces Server Launch"Jun 14 12:58
schestowitzVapourware!Jun 14 12:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. Out of 1500 MSFT headlines only 4 mention "Vista" in the headline. They really buried that embarrassment.Jun 14 13:00
_Mutex_do you think they will release a version of "Green Dam-Youth Escort" in open source for Linux, or require Linux to ship with a proprietary binary blob, and do FOSS want to "opening themselves to charges of abetting censorship."Jun 14 13:00
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schestowitzHeadlines for Vista7 in the same period: over 60. That's one heck of  a vapourware pattern. Talk about what WILL be, not what there is.Jun 14 13:01
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schestowitzThe PR puppet in CNET is just tossing Vista7 promotion 24/7Jun 14 13:03
schestowitzThis is classic W-E marketing slogJun 14 13:03
schestowitzLots of anti-Apple items along these lines too...Jun 14 13:04
schestowitz"Windows 7 Beats Snow Leopard On Older Hardware Support - PC World"Jun 14 13:04
schestowitz"Analyst: Windows 7 Launch Will Slow Apple's Mac Business (SiliconAlley)"Jun 14 13:05
schestowitzWho pays those analystsJun 14 13:05
schestowitzWho pays IDG.. ? :-)Jun 14 13:05
taconeomg, i read the jo shield postJun 14 13:05
taconethe last famous one.Jun 14 13:05
taconehow bad.Jun 14 13:05
_Mutex_where is it ?Jun 14 13:05
taconehttp://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/Jun 14 13:05
_Mutex_thanks :)Jun 14 13:06
taconelies, hidden truths and so on.Jun 14 13:06
schestowitzMicrosoft commercials lead to complains... http://www.xboxic.com/news/5377Jun 14 13:06
taconeschestowitz: in the comments he also pointed out the famous 'killing comments'Jun 14 13:07
taconehow coward.Jun 14 13:07
schestowitztacone: seen what shimitsudok wrote about it?Jun 14 13:07
schestowitzushimitsudok.Jun 14 13:07
schestowitztacone: yes, he shows you anonymous commentsJun 14 13:07
schestowitzBN NEVER DELETED COMMENTSJun 14 13:07
schestowitzSo it's like saying the park is a pile of shit because I found some poop under the benchJun 14 13:08
taconeso he thinks this is shit to be taken seriously ? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/09/mono-critique-for-ubuntu/#comment-65907Jun 14 13:08
taconehttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/21/death-by-microsoft-windows/#comment-58764Jun 14 13:08
schestowitztacone: noJun 14 13:08
taconeit is idiotic to classify a 'throw people into volcano' as seriousJun 14 13:09
schestowitzBut he needs to kill the messengerJun 14 13:09
schestowitzBy implying the messenger killsJun 14 13:09
taconei've seen the giving up post of ushi, yep.Jun 14 13:09
schestowitzCan you blame him?Jun 14 13:09
schestowitzHe writes long posts, then gets trolledJun 14 13:09
schestowitzOr his posts removedJun 14 13:09
schestowitz"Me and Ubuntu"Jun 14 13:09
taconeushi ? well, he was so good at pointing out their crapJun 14 13:09
taconeno wonder he got trolled.Jun 14 13:09
schestowitzMakes me wonder if he'll swap distros in the near future..Jun 14 13:09
schestowitztacone: yes, the hypocrisyJun 14 13:10
taconemany people willJun 14 13:10
schestowitzLike copyright assignmentJun 14 13:10
schestowitzNovell whining about OOo while doing the same with MonoJun 14 13:10
taconeand debian fans say 'please don't impose ubuntu on us'Jun 14 13:10
tacone'mono by default = making debian the same as ubuntu'Jun 14 13:10
schestowitzNo more prepaid boxes for RRoD 360s from Microsoft http://www.geek.com/articles/games/no-more-prepaid-boxes-for-rrod-360s-from-microsoft-20090610/Jun 14 13:10
schestowitzMicrosoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/52547/microsoft-no-more-coffins-for-busted-xbox-360-consoles/Jun 14 13:10
schestowitzHehe.Jun 14 13:10
schestowitzNot enough funds?Jun 14 13:11
taconenice equation if you think about it.Jun 14 13:11
_Mutex_what do you think of FOSS in Australia becoming a charity so they can get tax deductable donations, does foss condone begware ?Jun 14 13:11
taconedebian + mono = ubuntuJun 14 13:11
schestowitzThere was one that said, what are we, opensuse?Jun 14 13:11
schestowitz_Mutex_: see response from ScottJun 14 13:12
_Mutex_k :)Jun 14 13:12
schestowitzIt's quite enjoyable watching Mcirosoft news this yearJun 14 13:13
schestowitzThey announce nothing new, they close down divisionsJun 14 13:13
schestowitzNot there's a wii ripoof (natal)Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz*ripoff (ish)Jun 14 13:14
taconeripoop.Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz"Nintendo tried, rejected motion-capture tech of Xbox Natal - Seattle Post Intelligencer"Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz"Natal is good... for me to poop on"Jun 14 13:14
schestowitzContext: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ylHMSSvfU8Jun 14 13:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://ping.fm/plyP4Jun 14 13:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz appalling. SAVE VISTA!!!Jun 14 13:15
schestowitz" insult comic dog "Jun 14 13:15
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jun 14 13:17
oiaohmI prefer samsung to 360'sJun 14 13:18
schestowitztacone: well done attracting attention to posts about the issues such as Mono and censorship. This encouraged Fedora to look into it and Ubuntu will need to reconsider how it manages (censors) forums.Jun 14 13:18
oiaohmThey sent out the new monitor and you just had to put yours in the box sent.Jun 14 13:19
oiaohmAnd return it.Jun 14 13:19
schestowitzI've been pressing on Red Hat for a whileJun 14 13:19
oiaohmWhat MS was doing was stupid.Jun 14 13:19
schestowitzSome people in Red Hat don't like Mono.Jun 14 13:19
taconereally ?Jun 14 13:19
taconei did encourage fedora to do anything ?Jun 14 13:19
taconei don't think i had any effect at all.Jun 14 13:19
schestowitzThe whole attention it has been gettingJun 14 13:19
schestowitzDebian is where the discussion is at right nowJun 14 13:19
schestowitzDebian has Mono opposition tooJun 14 13:20
oiaohmIe send out box.   Send back 360  then repaired or replacement out.Jun 14 13:20
taconeurl ?Jun 14 13:20
schestowitzMono was controversial before BN existedJun 14 13:20
taconeyep, they're trolling Millan.Jun 14 13:20
oiaohmNotice something here you lose a box each time.Jun 14 13:20
schestowitzGroklaw is among the criticsJun 14 13:20
oiaohmMS is not known for there brains.Jun 14 13:20
schestowitzoiaohm: The XP Daemon had bad XBox experiencesJun 14 13:20
schestowitzI wonder just how much they lostJun 14 13:21
oiaohmSamsung uses common sence.Jun 14 13:21
schestowitzInfoWeek said $7 billiobJun 14 13:21
schestowitzBut these numbers are guesswork at bestJun 14 13:21
oiaohmIt saves a box and 1 extra trip of shipping.Jun 14 13:21
schestowitzIt was $6 in 2006Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz*$6bnJun 14 13:21
schestowitzSo just $7bn in 2008?Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz20,000,000x 360s (sold at loss+ many replacements) + losses from XBox..Jun 14 13:22
schestowitzIncome is from Games and XBox LiveJun 14 13:22
_Mutex_I believe (not confirmed) MS's last financial report showed xboxes starting to turn a profit !, I know the original idea was to sell cheap for takup. Kinda like FOSS but for hardware.Jun 14 13:23
schestowitzAt $200 loss per sale it's about $6bn in losses for XBox360Jun 14 13:23
schestowitzThis does not include repairsJun 14 13:23
_Mutex_so its going to take a LOOOG time to recoupJun 14 13:23
schestowitzAnd R&DJun 14 13:23
_Mutex_yesJun 14 13:23
schestowitzAnd XBox lossesJun 14 13:23
_Mutex_what do they say "you gotta be in it to win it"Jun 14 13:24
schestowitzCause of ballmerJun 14 13:24
_Mutex_no prizes for standing on the side lineJun 14 13:24
schestowitzHe says they must expandJun 14 13:24
schestowitzUnlike Cisco for exampleJun 14 13:24
_Mutex_yesJun 14 13:24
schestowitzBallmer insist that without expansion you shrinkJun 14 13:24
oiaohmAt current rate of braken downs MS should just scrap the Xbox360 line and refund the money it will be cheaper.Jun 14 13:24
schestowitzBut they just get burned online and in consoleJun 14 13:24
schestowitz*consoles (among other areas)Jun 14 13:24
_Mutex_he's right without expansion you do shrink, relative to the world getting more populatedJun 14 13:25
schestowitzWell, sony cleaned up with PS2Jun 14 13:25
_Mutex_yes, its very popularJun 14 13:25
_Mutex_I dont know about wii,Jun 14 13:25
_Mutex_ive actually never even been interested in getting a consoleJun 14 13:26
_Mutex_not a gamerJun 14 13:26
schestowitzhttp://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=talkbackCommentsFull&talk_back_header_id=6450706&articleid=CA6458001 "JULY 6 | FROM VARIETY: Defective Xbox 360s will cost Microsoft more than $1 billion on its bottom line. "Jun 14 13:26
oiaohmPS3 out lasts xbox360's.   Heck at least with a PS3 you can simply replace a dead harddrive.Jun 14 13:26
schestowitzMS bought ExpediaJun 14 13:26
schestowitzNo?Jun 14 13:27
schestowitzAnd EncartaJun 14 13:27
schestowitzThat's deadJun 14 13:27
schestowitzFLight SimulatrJun 14 13:27
schestowitzDeadJun 14 13:27
oiaohmThe wii also has a long operational life.Jun 14 13:27
schestowitzEnsemble...Jun 14 13:27
schestowitzAnd the list goes on..Jun 14 13:27
oiaohmBiggest problem about wii has been flying controllers.Jun 14 13:27
schestowitzRazorFish...Jun 14 13:27
schestowitzDangerJun 14 13:27
_Mutex_ahh yes, big problem is, it does not really matter if they make a loss in some segments, its is actually a handy tax write offJun 14 13:27
schestowitzBuying for the sake of buyingJun 14 13:27
oiaohmTo a point _Mutex_Jun 14 13:27
_Mutex_im disippointed the flight sim is gone, not that i ever used it :)Jun 14 13:28
_Mutex_oh yes, to a point exactly, just ask chrislerJun 14 13:28
schestowitzMaybe I played it before it was MS'Jun 14 13:28
schestowitzMany, many years agoJun 14 13:28
schestowitzMaybe 10+Jun 14 13:28
_Mutex_Yes, me too, when it still had the twin towers in it, I still have that win95 versionJun 14 13:28
oiaohmProblem I have is MS having money problems and Linux really is not attacking them yet.Jun 14 13:29
schestowitz"No more Microsoft points, user ratings" http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/xbox-live-evolves-no-more-microsoft-points-user-ratings.arsJun 14 13:29
oiaohmWould you not give up having to pay for ads cal's in windows networks if you could _Mutex_Jun 14 13:29
_Mutex_linux seems to be somewhat pre-occupied with internal affairsJun 14 13:30
schestowitzThat's its natureJun 14 13:30
schestowitzIt's not a companyJun 14 13:30
oiaohmDoing the conversion from server to desktop is a painful process _Mutex_Jun 14 13:30
_Mutex_yes, :)Jun 14 13:30
schestowitzCOmpanies follow orders from one routeJun 14 13:30
schestowitzBallmer descending downwardsJun 14 13:30
schestowitzBazaar means everyone is bossJun 14 13:30
_Mutex_which ofcourse brings with it some great benifits and some difficult problemsJun 14 13:31
oiaohmDRI2 conversion and building open source video card drivers has sucked up a lot of resources.Jun 14 13:31
oiaohmUpgrading Linux kernel to be more realtime to assist desktop and embeded is also sucking up resources.Jun 14 13:32
schestowitz"Microsoft keeps dividend, opens investor question" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/*http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090611/us_microsoft_dividend.html?.v=4Jun 14 13:33
oiaohmEnd result will be quite a tech jump forwards _Mutex_Jun 14 13:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Don't believe the FUD about Theora vs H.264: http://is.gd/11CUi this rubbish is all over, stamp on it every time someone pulls itJun 14 13:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] James Ray's Gangwar are really rather good. What Sisters of Mercy would have sounded like had Eldritch not disappeared up his own nose.Jun 14 13:35
schestowitzMS has found another shill (Injazat Data Systems) http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090614082948Jun 14 13:35
_Mutex_yes, but a massive amount of work and development to get real time and predictable results, it will probably require a change in methodology, generally more interrupt based.Jun 14 13:35
_Mutex_rip out all global variables, modularise everything, divide critical and non-critical threats its a big big job. but well worth it.Jun 14 13:36
oiaohmThe difference between 2.6.29 and 2.6.30 in a lot of that is quite massive.Jun 14 13:36
_Mutex_Linux is over due for a from scratch re-write.Jun 14 13:36
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oiaohmOver the last 10 versions there is almost not a single section of the core code not altered _Mutex_Jun 14 13:37
amarsh04Linux has been more "rewritten" than any other code base that sizeJun 14 13:37
amarsh04snapJun 14 13:37
_Mutex_re-writing is very different than maintaining or patching modules.Jun 14 13:38
oiaohmThis is rewriting.Jun 14 13:38
_Mutex_clean room ?Jun 14 13:38
oiaohmredesigning the complete lock system.Jun 14 13:38
oiaohmThat is the hart of a OS.Jun 14 13:38
oiaohmLock system don't work OS don't work.Jun 14 13:38
oiaohmway file access are done have been altered.Jun 14 13:39
_Mutex_thats great, its about time, that applies to most sections of an OS, if one bit dont work, its usually a show stopper.Jun 14 13:39
oiaohmWay memory management is done is altered to a completely different design.Jun 14 13:39
oiaohmThis is in 10 subversions of 2.6Jun 14 13:39
_Mutex_thats good too, I assume thats is mainly for 64-bitJun 14 13:39
_Mutex_but will benifit 32 as wellJun 14 13:40
oiaohm64 and 32 bit branches are being mergedJun 14 13:40
oiaohmSo there will not be 2 split branches for x86.Jun 14 13:40
oiaohmOnly 1 that builds for either 64 or 32 bit.Jun 14 13:40
_Mutex_yesJun 14 13:40
oiaohmThis is also being applied to other archs where able.Jun 14 13:40
oiaohmYou are talking about a rewrite.Jun 14 13:41
oiaohmIts underway.Jun 14 13:41
amarsh04I build kernels for my PII-266 on the amd64 fine (-:Jun 14 13:41
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_Mutex_ofcourse, does not matter as long as you have the right switches setJun 14 13:41
oiaohmThere is a lot less core code now than at the start of the process.Jun 14 13:41
_Mutex_is it quicker to compile on 64-bit ?Jun 14 13:41
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oiaohmMore drivers less core code.Jun 14 13:42
amarsh04apart from the faster, dual-core cpu? I don't knowJun 14 13:42
oiaohm64 bit build not much different.Jun 14 13:42
_Mutex_yea, what was linux ver 1.0 100K lines of codeJun 14 13:42
oiaohmGcc really not built to take advantage of 64 bit.Jun 14 13:42
_Mutex_now what 6 millions + or is it 11 mil ? cant rememberJun 14 13:42
_Mutex_True, gcc has some inherent problems, its optimization is not the bestJun 14 13:43
oiaohm2.6.28 linux kernel 7M ±2M' lines of code.Jun 14 13:43
oiaohmVista 17M ±9MJun 14 13:44
_Mutex_sounds about rightJun 14 13:44
oiaohmVista is not what you call small.Jun 14 13:44
schestowitzLinux does not need a rewriteJun 14 13:45
schestowitzUtter FUDJun 14 13:45
schestowitzIt is very well engineered and rewritten by the modulesJun 14 13:45
schestowitzMany times entire lumps of code are thrown away and replacedJun 14 13:45
schestowitzStuff like KVM gets mergedJun 14 13:45
trmancocrapJun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Bartz says search engine Bing unlikely to make significant mark" http://ping.fm/A6yVoJun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] That whole "BING" nonsense at least keeps Yahoo! safe from Microsoft,for now.. http://ping.fm/msjG2Jun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] meh, Evolution hogging 250 MB of ram... that's 1/4 of my total ram :| Better restart the app before it hits the swap space...Jun 14 13:45
oiaohmSome sections of Linux need rewritting.  Like full support for hard realtime that not even Vista support that.Jun 14 13:45
_Mutex_I guess not having the Windows source code its source file may to any size, same with linux its not a very accurate value, if you are carefull and comment alot, its bloats the source but not the compiled codeJun 14 13:45
schestowitzNew filesystem are entered, etc.Jun 14 13:45
schestowitzMicrosoft is very immature in that respect. Like finally saying bye to BSD's TCP/IPJun 14 13:46
schestowitzAnd having HUGE holes by replacing it in VistaJun 14 13:46
_Mutex_No certainly not, windows is NOT a RTOS,Jun 14 13:46
schestowitzSend packet, own Vista.Jun 14 13:46
schestowitzWell done. True MS engineeringJun 14 13:46
oiaohmNT design is RTOS.Jun 14 13:46
oiaohmDue to miss placed locking it cannot do it.Jun 14 13:46
_Mutex_they droped BSD's tcp stack years and years ago.Jun 14 13:47
_Mutex_ancient historyJun 14 13:47
oiaohmYet they kept the ping of death support upto XP _Mutex_Jun 14 13:47
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oiaohmVista was the first with a new TCP/IP stack completely.Jun 14 13:48
_Mutex_I would argu NT is an RTOS, few if any PC desktop OS's are RTOS,  thats includes VMS or NT (if its a derivative of it), none of them have 100% predictable response nor interrupt based.  which is a basic requirement for RTOS.Jun 14 13:49
_Mutex_It cant push an interrupt onto the stack, it has to deal with it immediatly, regardless of what your doing, making it not so great for desktop operations.Jun 14 13:49
schestowitzThe image says it all about the author's intent:http://www.itpro.co.uk/611455/linux-and-windows-battle-for-netbooksJun 14 13:49
_Mutex_QNX is your best bet for a good POSIX RTOSJun 14 13:49
trmanco320 MB :OJun 14 13:49
trmancoinsaneJun 14 13:49
schestowitz trmanco FF sometimes takes 1.3GB on mineJun 14 13:50
schestowitzThen I kill itJun 14 13:50
trmancoworse than Thunderbird, hard to believeJun 14 13:50
schestowitzFF2 was fineJun 14 13:50
trmancoschestowitz, not firefoxJun 14 13:50
schestowitzBut plugins seem to poison FF3Jun 14 13:50
trmancofirefox is gine with 100 MBJun 14 13:50
trmancofine*Jun 14 13:50
trmancoyeahJun 14 13:50
trmancothat's in any appJun 14 13:50
schestowitzMaybe I should mess with about:confidJun 14 13:50
schestowitzTo limit how much it allocatedJun 14 13:50
schestowitzIt annoys me that I hit swap with 2GB because of FFJun 14 13:50
trmancololJun 14 13:51
trmancoI hat it when I hate swapJun 14 13:51
trmancohate*Jun 14 13:51
schestowitzX takes 750MBJun 14 13:51
schestowitzVirtualJun 14 13:51
schestowitzJust about 200mb in practiceJun 14 13:51
oiaohmGood RTOS can push interrupt of not important classes to stack so important ones can be processed _Mutex_Jun 14 13:51
oiaohmGood RTOS's are not that bad to use as a desktop.Jun 14 13:52
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schestowitzDell is still in bed with MS: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/18204.cfm http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090611005079&newsLang=enJun 14 13:53
trmancothis is one time only because I'm downloading my hole gmail folderJun 14 13:53
oiaohmBasically making Linux a full RTOS provides the halfway tech a decent desktop OS needs _Mutex_Jun 14 13:54
schestowitzAny decision about this yet? http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html?ana=yfcpc http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html ("Apple, Google, Microsoft, others may be under scrutiny for hiring practices")Jun 14 13:55
schestowitztrmanco: better whole than hole /dev/null/)Jun 14 13:56
trmancooopsJun 14 13:56
trmancoyeah whole*Jun 14 13:56
schestowitzoiaohm: there are Linus derivatives for RTOSesJun 14 13:56
schestowitz*nuxJun 14 13:57
schestowitzOr more like branches with some blobs on themJun 14 13:57
oiaohmThose branches are slowly being merged into main schestowitz.Jun 14 13:57
schestowitzBlueCat, Concurrent, Red Hat has one too... and there's Novell's SLERT.. maybe MontaVista handles this toJun 14 13:57
schestowitz*tooJun 14 13:57
oiaohmThreaded interpert handling in 2.6.30 came from one of those branches.Jun 14 13:57
oiaohmSame with better io control.Jun 14 13:58
schestowitzYes, they called for a RTOS/embedded branch some time agoJun 14 13:58
schestowitzMorton circa April 2008Jun 14 13:58
schestowitzThat's a growth areaJun 14 13:58
oiaohmStill slowly merging away.Jun 14 13:58
schestowitzBetter than desktopJun 14 13:58
oiaohmLot of the locking fixes also come from there.Jun 14 13:58
oiaohmLocking is a night mare of RTOS's.Jun 14 13:59
schestowitzIntel has VXWorks nowJun 14 13:59
oiaohmIe I need to respond to something and something else has locked it bugger I just missed the time window.Jun 14 13:59
oiaohmOpps someone dead.Jun 14 13:59
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schestowitzApple fans getting excited about WWDC ATM..Jun 14 14:00
DaemonMDVyeah, where they laugh at Microsoft, then copy thenJun 14 14:01
schestowitzAdmiration of company events... rallying silly volunteersJun 14 14:01
DaemonMDVMicrosoft responds by copying the MacJun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV*themJun 14 14:01
DaemonMDVthey both get it about half rightJun 14 14:01
schestowitzTo copy the Mac one needs to start with UNIXJun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 14:01
DaemonMDVNT is based on a lot of the same ideasJun 14 14:02
DaemonMDVthough obviously made incompatible and hidden from the userJun 14 14:02
schestowitzWindows is built on top of mud, not soilJun 14 14:02
schestowitzMicrosoft thought it can outdo science by ignoring itJun 14 14:02
schestowitzAnd then promote /faith/ in Windows insteadJun 14 14:02
schestowitzAdding sudo in 2005Jun 14 14:02
schestowitzAnd done badlyJun 14 14:02
schestowitzSilver Lie does not make ANY headlines anymoreJun 14 14:03
schestowitzDead in the water, I bet. They complained no-one experimented with itJun 14 14:03
schestowitzMLB kicked it to the curb tooJun 14 14:03
DaemonMDVapparently one of the reasons for people liking Mono is because C++ makes it difficult to make a decent multithreaded applicationJun 14 14:03
schestowitzSo did NYT (WPF)Jun 14 14:03
oiaohmThat is a fairly poor reason DaemonMDVJun 14 14:04
DaemonMDVLinus Torvalds has hated C++ with a passion for yearsJun 14 14:04
DaemonMDVand made no secret of itJun 14 14:04
DaemonMDVI doubt he would like Mono, but stillJun 14 14:04
oiaohmvala is quite nice for multi threaded.Jun 14 14:04
DaemonMDVhe won't allow any C++ in the kernelJun 14 14:05
oiaohmThere is no logical reason for it.Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDVit's all C or assembler (in a few areas)Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDVcause it's so easy to make a disaster with C++Jun 14 14:05
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_Mutex_hate c++ ?? gee, thats quite restrictive of a top level developer.Jun 14 14:05
oiaohmDoes not help that when you ask a C++ programmer to optimise for speed.Jun 14 14:05
schestowitzNews about no news... *sigh* Apple, Microsoft make mediocre moves < http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2009/06/12/Opinions/Apple.Microsoft.Make.Mediocre.Moves-3747438.shtml >Jun 14 14:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz indeed. Bartz: "Bing? Hahahahano. Go away." Morse: "We will proactively synergise our buzzwords to hahahano, go away."Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDVbecause every programmer that uses C++ effectively creates a new languageJun 14 14:05
DaemonMDVbecause it's so bloated and ambiguousJun 14 14:05
_Mutex_its not like c++ is a windows or MS thing eitherJun 14 14:05
oiaohmLot of case  you end up with code that is basically C with a few alters.Jun 14 14:06
schestowitz"Jun 14 14:06
schestowitzI sat there shaking my head in disbelief as I realized I had just witnessed possibly the most disheartening Apple keynote in recent memory. Three years ago, Steve Jobs introduced the adoption of Intel chips in Apple machines, a move that would send its market share soaring. A year later he walked up on stage and announced the phone that would change the mobile world forever."Jun 14 14:06
DaemonMDVthe C++ standard is over twice as big as C because it has to do everything C can and implement all of itself on top of itJun 14 14:06
_Mutex_Its not really, considering you are able to code pure C within C++ so if you like like OOP, you dont have to follow OOP principles.Jun 14 14:06
DaemonMDVthe standard ended up being over 300 pages longJun 14 14:06
oiaohmGcc cannot optimise C++ static for nuts.Jun 14 14:06
_Mutex_does he hate java as well, its basically the same thing even more so.Jun 14 14:06
oiaohmYou can do OOP in C without needing C++ too.Jun 14 14:07
_Mutex_that is very true oiaohmJun 14 14:07
DaemonMDVIt would be nice if something like Mono came along that didn't have the patent and political problems associated with itJun 14 14:07
oiaohmMost likely that will be vala DaemonMDVJun 14 14:07
oiaohmLanguage like C# the performance of C.Jun 14 14:08
DaemonMDVJAVA is too damned huge and slow to create anything non-trivial that doesn't need a gazillion megabytes of RAMJun 14 14:08
_Mutex_not really you cant name mangle, or or overload functions in C.  but yes you can code in objects with many languages, its just not optimal.Jun 14 14:08
DaemonMDVI think Limewire is a pretty much proof of thatJun 14 14:08
_Mutex_yes, ive heard that about java, never use it myself.  but its just an extension of C++ and enforces OOPJun 14 14:09
DaemonMDVa Gnutella client written in Java that needs 4 times the RAM of GTK-GnutellaJun 14 14:09
oiaohmHow does C++ do it.  _Mutex_ you have to remember C++ at one stage was just a pure translator to C++.Jun 14 14:09
oiaohmOppsJun 14 14:09
oiaohmLast C++ CJun 14 14:09
DaemonMDVor VuzeJun 14 14:09
DaemonMDVa Bittorrent client written in JavaJun 14 14:09
DaemonMDVthat needs 8 times the RAM of TransmissionJun 14 14:09
oiaohmMajor problem is JIT systems.Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDVthen there was that god awful AOL Instant Messenger for Linux that was written in JavaJun 14 14:10
_Mutex_C++ is an extension of S&M and then later ANSI C and C++ standard.Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDVbefore they euthanized itJun 14 14:10
DaemonMDVmercifullyJun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV:DJun 14 14:10
oiaohmUnlike true native code Linux kernel and other OS kernels don't know how to cheeply clear memory.Jun 14 14:10
oiaohmWhen using a JIT.Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDVSadomasochism?Jun 14 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/DUJcI Good for GNU/Linux that can nicely occupy those Mac PCs, filling them with modern, top-of-the-line operating systems.Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDVI agreeJun 14 14:10
oiaohmIf JIT's are ever going to work they are going to have to extend kernel.Jun 14 14:11
oiaohmTo allow blocks of themselves to be generated on fly.Jun 14 14:11
DaemonMDVyou'll feel the veins in your brain start to throb by page 2 of Teach Yourself C++Jun 14 14:11
oiaohmAnd auto dumped like native programs.Jun 14 14:11
DaemonMDVI honestly think that anyone who manages to make anything that works well in C++ should go on to cure cancerJun 14 14:12
oiaohmJust think about trying to run a mono program on a PPC chip without ram.Jun 14 14:12
DaemonMDVbecause they're obviously smart enoughJun 14 14:12
DaemonMDVthey can't be humanJun 14 14:12
_Mutex_I know, its head exploding stuff to start with. You want to try LabVIEW for something fun and really interesting.  (and fun)Jun 14 14:12
oiaohmC++ with a good complier not bad.Jun 14 14:12
oiaohmC++ with gcc scream.Jun 14 14:12
_Mutex_yes,Jun 14 14:12
DaemonMDVit depends, most people know C and enough C++ to pad a resume for an interviewer that won't know the differenceJun 14 14:13
oiaohmThe lack of whole program optimisations.Jun 14 14:13
oiaohmCause major problems.Jun 14 14:13
DaemonMDVand then just limits themselves to a little bit of it now and then to make everything look like it should :PJun 14 14:13
DaemonMDVevery C++ programmer establishes their own dialectJun 14 14:13
oiaohmLinux most likely has another 10 percent performance that can be extracted just threw complier improvments.Jun 14 14:14
DaemonMDVusing C++ is like being in the middle of the ocean with the stars to guide youJun 14 14:14
_Mutex_they shouldnt, C++ is designed to help enforce good coding standards and module re-useabilityJun 14 14:14
DaemonMDVand Iran-Contra wasn't arms for hostagesJun 14 14:14
oiaohmC++ fails at that _Mutex_Jun 14 14:14
oiaohmLot of coders duplicate code inside there programs.Jun 14 14:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz even on powerpc, dual-boot with Linux is a lifesaver quite often enough to be worth a few gig for a partitionJun 14 14:15
_Mutex_yes, it does, its not a good language for QA based software engineering, but used correctly it can create good compiled code.Jun 14 14:15
DaemonMDVSauerbraten is good, Firefox is borderline acceptableJun 14 14:15
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 14:16
DaemonMDVboth outstanding achievements by C++ standardsJun 14 14:16
DaemonMDVI downloaded the Linux 2.6.30 source tarballJun 14 14:16
_Mutex_Unfortunately the state of the art in computer science is wohfully poor, there seems to be little of no standards or QA disipline instilled in coders these days.Jun 14 14:16
DaemonMDVit's finally broken 50 megsJun 14 14:17
oiaohmhttp://www.kernel.org/pub/software/devel/sparse/   Linux kernel is not built with a stock standard gcc by the developers either _Mutex_Jun 14 14:17
_Mutex_unless you compile your own with gcc, but ive heard report that linux runes quite a bit faster if compiled with the INTEL C++ compilersJun 14 14:18
DaemonMDVI hadn't even been following itJun 14 14:18
DaemonMDVor paying attention for a whileJun 14 14:18
DaemonMDVit's now actually 72 megs of sourceJun 14 14:18
_Mutex_thats ok neither have i :)Jun 14 14:18
DaemonMDVit's grown 22 of those megs since 2.6.28Jun 14 14:19
DaemonMDVgod damn.....Jun 14 14:19
oiaohmsparse replaces the cpp of gcc _Mutex_ and adds heavy type and allocation checking.Jun 14 14:19
DaemonMDVwhat did they put in?Jun 14 14:19
oiaohmDrivers DaemonMDVJun 14 14:20
oiaohmLots of drivers.Jun 14 14:20
oiaohmCore code is smaller  DaemonMDVJun 14 14:20
DaemonMDVsweetJun 14 14:20
DaemonMDVprobably nothing I ownJun 14 14:20
DaemonMDVbut good for whoever has all that stuff I don'tJun 14 14:20
_Mutex_sounds interesting, type checking and allocation is good, as is global removal. and variable definitions in one huge include blob, really poor coding practice.Jun 14 14:21
schestowitzThe Beatles’ Surprise E3 Appearance < http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/01/the-beatles-surprise-e3-appearance/#mod=yahoo_hs >Jun 14 14:21
DaemonMDVat this rate the kernel will be over 100 megs by this time next yearJun 14 14:21
DaemonMDVthe tarball that isJun 14 14:22
schestowitzSO?Jun 14 14:22
schestowitzLooking for something to whine about?Jun 14 14:22
*DaemonMDV wonders when Stall Man will unveil HURDJun 14 14:22
schestowitzBuilt it thinly if you need small footprint.Jun 14 14:22
schestowitzIs that so hard?Jun 14 14:22
DaemonMDVit doesn't really matter how big the source isJun 14 14:23
schestowitzStallman doesn't live in a stallJun 14 14:23
DaemonMDVmost of that is for other architectures or stuff I leave out or make into modulesJun 14 14:23
_Mutex_hard drives are big these days, OS's are still relatively small by comparisonJun 14 14:23
oiaohmIts almost 400 meg extracted as source DaemonMDVJun 14 14:24
DaemonMDVif the whole kernel had to be loaded at once, distributions wouldn't be possibleJun 14 14:24
DaemonMDVbecause they tend to put in everything as a moduleJun 14 14:24
oiaohm_Mutex_: big one was giving user space kernel space pointers.   Really bad thing todo.Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDVthere's really very few things that need to be compiled into the kernel imageJun 14 14:25
_Mutex_oh yes, sure is, seems like a security issue possibly as well.Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDVjust the obvious stuff like keyboard and your mouse and display driver and enough to get it goingJun 14 14:25
_Mutex_rule 1 dont give userspace ANYTHING :)Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDVit can load the rest as needed if you make modulesJun 14 14:25
oiaohmParticularly with the initrd filesystem.Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDVyou don't need an initrd reallyJun 14 14:26
DaemonMDVjust build the file system driver into the kernelJun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 14:26
oiaohmHardware drivers for odd hardware.Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDVit shaves a couple seconds off boot timeJun 14 14:26
oiaohmAt least in the initrd after you have got them you can bin it.Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDVif you want bragging rights :PJun 14 14:26
DaemonMDVwhat will be awesome is when they finally get rid of BIOS and move to EFIJun 14 14:27
DaemonMDVthat will cut a few seconds off the boot time tooJun 14 14:27
DaemonMDVeventually there will be no point in using suspend on Linux because it will boot in under 10 seconds anywayJun 14 14:28
DaemonMDVit'll come from a combination of things, EFI, no initrd, and SSD isntead of a hard diskJun 14 14:28
schestowitzhttp://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/01/why-you-should-worry-about-research-in-motion.aspx "And if the market weren't crowded enough already, Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT) is working on a smartphone code-named "Pink." What do you want to bet that Verizon Wireless will carry that one, too?"Jun 14 14:29
_Mutex_yes, looking at come nice performance with that system, if configured wellJun 14 14:29
schestowitzPing and Bing sounds similar? Coincidence?Jun 14 14:29
_Mutex_Has anyone seen the PINK (singer) film clip with the penguins ?Jun 14 14:29
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_Mutex_Hot blond dancing near a pool with penguinsJun 14 14:30
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Bing is also fully functional on LinuxJun 14 14:30
schestowitzPink is not hotJun 14 14:30
DaemonMDVmight I suggest trying it with OpenSuse?Jun 14 14:30
DaemonMDV:DJun 14 14:30
schestowitzShe also seems kind of sluttyJun 14 14:30
_Mutex_I would not kick her out to get to you roy,, (sorry) :)Jun 14 14:31
schestowitzAnd she's not blond, eitherJun 14 14:31
_Mutex_mabey not natural, I would like to get confirmation on that thoughJun 14 14:31
DaemonMDVI feel truly sorry for anyone that tries to use OpenSuseJun 14 14:31
DaemonMDVit's such a clusterfuck user interfaceJun 14 14:31
schestowitzconfirmation how?Jun 14 14:31
schestowitzThe old joke?Jun 14 14:31
schestowitzAnyway, just watch some interview with these peopleJun 14 14:32
_Mutex_LOL.  might have to go in for a visual :)Jun 14 14:32
schestowitzThey are very narrow-mindedJun 14 14:32
schestowitz_Mutex_: no, the joke is rudeJun 14 14:33
_Mutex_ok :)Jun 14 14:33
DaemonMDVMandriva seems to be weird with volumeJun 14 14:33
DaemonMDVnot every application is affectedJun 14 14:33
schestowitz"Bing Is Now the Only Search Engine on IE6" http://seekingalpha.com/article/140955-bing-is-now-the-only-search-engine-on-ie6?source=yahooJun 14 14:34
DaemonMDVbut some aren't loud enoughJun 14 14:34
schestowitzWhere is the EU Commission?Jun 14 14:34
schestowitzMS commits competition violations hereJun 14 14:34
schestowitzWhat kind of person adjusts volumes per app?Jun 14 14:34
schestowitzMaybe a few sound prosJun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVI'm not trying toJun 14 14:35
schestowitzNo-one else caresJun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVit's just that I can't hear some DVDsJun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVno matter what I do with the volumeJun 14 14:35
schestowitzJust use volume control on the app itself or master in the keyboard/lpyhsical speakers.Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVI didJun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVI tried setting VLC at 400%Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDVstill not loud enoughJun 14 14:35
schestowitzSee  a doctor :-0)Jun 14 14:35
schestowitzVan Gough syndromeJun 14 14:36
DaemonMDVTotem can play DVDsJun 14 14:36
DaemonMDV*shrugsJun 14 14:36
DaemonMDVjust weirdJun 14 14:36
oiaohmNot running pulseaudio by any chance and it stuffed up the VLC audio link.Jun 14 14:36
_Mutex_By post :Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_European Personnel Selection OfficeJun 14 14:38
_Mutex_Candidate contact serviceJun 14 14:38
_Mutex_Office C-80 00/40Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_B-1049 BrusselsJun 14 14:38
DaemonMDVseems like anything that uses Gstreamer is working fineJun 14 14:39
DaemonMDVmore Pulseaudio strangenessJun 14 14:39
DaemonMDVI'll shit myself if they ever make Pulseaudio not suckJun 14 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Porn Search Blocked in Islamic Countries < http://ping.fm/hg0SX > Not good for share gains.Jun 14 14:40
schestowitzDaemonMDV: I can already smell you from hereJun 14 14:42
schestowitzChina: "The market is currently dominated by Baidu and Google, with respective market shares of 59% and 30.6%, according to Internet research firm Analysis International." http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/12/microsoft-launches-search-engine-for-china-but-dont-call-it-bing/Jun 14 14:43
_Mutex_wonder if MS will cowtow to the chinese censorship ?Jun 14 14:44
oiaohmI have a suspect DaemonMDVJun 14 14:44
oiaohmand its not pulseaudio this time.Jun 14 14:45
oiaohmwrong version libasound libs.Jun 14 14:45
schestowitzMost Computers MS sellout.. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=104170Jun 14 14:49
schestowitzIntel quietly boosting its software in bid to get chips into smartphones < http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009284455_btintelsoftware01.html > Haha! Intel in phone... yeah, right..Jun 14 14:49
schestowitzGas-guzzling x86.. and Intel is worse at energy management than AMDJun 14 14:50
kentmaschestowitz: why do the shills keep nymshifting, do you think, Roy?Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_I wonder if there is a reason why chip makers make terrible software, but they did just acquire Windriver, that has a huge good reputation in the embedded world.Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_so that will be their plan to leverage of wind River.Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_who does have RTOS systems,Jun 14 14:52
_Mutex_and heaps moreJun 14 14:52
schestowitzkentma: here?Jun 14 14:53
kentmammm?Jun 14 14:53
schestowitzDaemonMDV might be trying to escape ingore listsJun 14 14:53
schestowitzkentma: some people like him here, some want him yankedJun 14 14:54
kentmaprobably.  I wonder if we need regex capability for ignores?Jun 14 14:54
kentmapersonally, I'd rather he weren't here, but I'm happy to /ignore.Jun 14 14:54
schestowitzDaemonMDV: don't change your name anymoreJun 14 14:54
schestowitzAnd use something like ryan perhaps so that bad language will carry a liability with youJun 14 14:55
kentmayeah...Jun 14 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Russia's action vs MS is weird because they first made a weak allegations re: xp and now it's about bundling. http://ping.fm/DTMyOJun 14 14:55
kentmaBNc: Russia plays to different rules.Jun 14 14:56
_Mutex_are you refering to me kentma ??Jun 14 14:56
DaemonMDVuggghJun 14 14:56
DaemonMDVspeaking of whichJun 14 14:56
DaemonMDVI'm trying to navigate through a site written in RussianJun 14 14:57
DaemonMDVwith the help of Google Translate in the other tabJun 14 14:57
DaemonMDVhehJun 14 14:58
DaemonMDVbingoJun 14 14:58
_Mutex_I tried BING's translator earlier from french, it did an OK job, nothing to write home about, its got a ways to go.Jun 14 14:58
schestowitzkentma: Chips was right when he called it shillflood or somethingJun 14 14:58
schestowitzIt's about drowning out the signalJun 14 14:58
DaemonMDVNom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère.Jun 14 14:59
DaemonMDV;)Jun 14 14:59
kentmaschestowitz: presumably, the disastrous results in Redmond are prompting ever greater panic attacks on the rest of us.Jun 14 14:59
schestowitzYes, they are stressedJun 14 14:59
schestowitzSome just leave the companyJun 14 14:59
kentmaI've often thought that cola could use a "standard" killfile, and probably this channel could use a standard /ignore file :-)Jun 14 14:59
schestowitzIncluding UK headsJun 14 14:59
kentmaschestowitz: it's game over for MS now.Jun 14 15:00
DaemonMDVuggghJun 14 15:00
schestowitzStandard /ingoreJun 14 15:00
_Mutex_sure it is:)Jun 14 15:00
schestowitzI don't quite followJun 14 15:00
schestowitz_Mutex_: it isJun 14 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Philippines is still without a head. Disarray. A few other countries suffered similar fate (India, Singapore, SA...). http://p ...Jun 14 15:00
DaemonMDVremind me to back this stuff up when if finishes crossing the AtlanticJun 14 15:00
_Mutex_ok, has their stock price crashed ?Jun 14 15:00
kentmabut it's interesting watching the death throes.Jun 14 15:01
schestowitzHhahaJun 14 15:01
schestowitzThey pump their money into itJun 14 15:01
kentmaBNc: :-)Jun 14 15:01
schestowitzThat's not workingJun 14 15:01
DaemonMDVthe fucking RIAA made them stop selling this and so it's a fortune on eBayJun 14 15:01
DaemonMDVdon't askJun 14 15:01
schestowitzBNc is just a bot that takes Twitter msgs from BN folksJun 14 15:01
kentmaIf I were a shill, I'd be looking for another job about now, rather than wasting my time polluting IRC channels and usenet groups and so on.Jun 14 15:01
schestowitzDaemonMDV: watch your languageJun 14 15:02
schestowitz_Mutex_: MS valuation sankJun 14 15:02
schestowitzTheir savings are nullifiedJun 14 15:02
schestowitzThey BORROW moneyJun 14 15:02
schestowitzBORROWJun 14 15:02
schestowitzWhy?Jun 14 15:02
schestowitzThey won't sayJun 14 15:02
DaemonMDVthat is suspiciousJun 14 15:02
kentmadesperation?  I would imagine that the really senior folk are paying themselves enormous bonuses about now, and the middle and junior management will find themselves in P.45-land soon.Jun 14 15:03
DaemonMDVwhy does a company that sells nothing for outrageous amounts of money need to borrow anything from anyone?Jun 14 15:03
kentmaThey can pay themselves bonsuses from loans, and MS can chapter 11 in 3-5 years and they won't care.Jun 14 15:03
oiaohmoss from vlc works fine DaemonMDVJun 14 15:03
schestowitzkentma: exactlyJun 14 15:03
DaemonMDVgood pointJun 14 15:03
schestowitzBillG and steveB have their moneyJun 14 15:03
schestowitzProbably in some Swiss bank account in Steveb's caseJun 14 15:04
_Mutex_their stock price right now is spiking upwards, 12pm it was 22.75 by 4PM its 23.22 (UP 0.50) and climingJun 14 15:04
oiaohmIts something in the alsa stack that kinda strange DaemonMDVJun 14 15:04
schestowitzGates does not pay taxJun 14 15:04
DaemonMDVso they know they're screwed and are using the company as their own personal piggy bankJun 14 15:04
schestowitzHe operated a Rockefeller scam ATMJun 14 15:04
DaemonMDVon the way downJun 14 15:04
schestowitz*ratesJun 14 15:04
kentmaRich enough to be a parasite.Jun 14 15:04
schestowitz_Mutex_: who cared about FraudStreet?Jun 14 15:05
kentmaanyway, guests arriving for PM barbecue (my co-governors and senior staff from the school) - should be fun :-)Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDVmeh, I don't even care about them making off with investors money, cause in this theoretical, we'd be rid of themJun 14 15:05
schestowitzHave people learned nothing about how the market (does not) work?Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDVand none of it was my moneyJun 14 15:05
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 15:05
schestowitzBuybacks..Jun 14 15:05
kentmac u l8r, as my kids sms to me :-)Jun 14 15:05
schestowitzToss some money at the stockJun 14 15:05
DaemonMDVhow does it get any better than that?Jun 14 15:05
schestowitzBorrow money, see the stock riseJun 14 15:05
schestowitzBribe Moody'sJun 14 15:05
schestowitzThey sell recommendationsJun 14 15:05
schestowitzGot caught by KucinichJun 14 15:05
schestowitzkentma: no doom tournaments?Jun 14 15:06
_Mutex_so how long have they got ??Jun 14 15:07
DaemonMDVoh niceJun 14 15:07
DaemonMDVfile roller won't tell you that the extraction failed cause there was a passwordJun 14 15:07
DaemonMDVit just tells you it failedJun 14 15:07
DaemonMDVthat helpsJun 14 15:07
schestowitzCuba slams Microsoft censorship http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184454/cuba-slams-microsoft-censorshipJun 14 15:07
schestowitzMSFT won't be liquidated any time soonJun 14 15:07
schestowitzToo many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailoutJun 14 15:08
_Mutex_I tend to agreeJun 14 15:08
schestowitzLike the one Ballmer begged for 8 months agoJun 14 15:08
_Mutex_have they asked for a bailout ? I have not heard of one.Jun 14 15:08
schestowitzYesJun 14 15:08
schestowitzSeveral timesJun 14 15:08
schestowitzFirst time in Oct.Jun 14 15:08
_Mutex_really, link ?Jun 14 15:08
schestowitzJust after the massive crashJun 14 15:08
_Mutex_what a TARP type bailout ??Jun 14 15:08
schestowitzThe second-biggest after Black Monday (was it called that?)Jun 14 15:09
_Mutex_wasnt that in 87?Jun 14 15:09
schestowitzLet me get the URLsJun 14 15:09
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_Mutex_picked it in oneJun 14 15:09
_Mutex_thats almost 20 years ago RoyJun 14 15:09
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oiaohmWhat version asound do you have DaemonMDV.  I guess like me not 1.0.20Jun 14 15:10
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schestowitzMicrosoft calls on Congress to reconsider bailout http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10053774-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20Jun 14 15:11
schestowitzBallmer: Congress must 'stabilize' financial crisis http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10054252-75.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20Jun 14 15:11
schestowitzBallmer says Microsoft not immune from global crisis http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080930/bs_nm/us_microsoft_ballmer;_ylt=Au5VO.rh_OuPGHCBr9O.m4K573QAJun 14 15:11
schestowitzMicrosoft loses 90 Billion Dollars http://slated.org/microsoft_loses_90_billion_dollarsJun 14 15:11
schestowitzMicrosoft's Market Cap Falls $24B in 17 Days http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/microsofts_market_cap_falls_24b_in_two_weeks.html?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535Jun 14 15:11
schestowitzMicrosoft's Accounting Under Scrutiny http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E1DC173DF932A35754C0A96F958260Jun 14 15:12
schestowitzMicrosoft Agrees To Refrain From Accounting Violations in SEC Settlement http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18819490Jun 14 15:12
schestowitzSEC Investigating Microsoft Practices -- Earnings Manipulated, Former Employee Contends http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990701&slug=2969514Jun 14 15:12
_Mutex_you read those Roy ?? they are calling for congress to re-evaluate the bailouts for other companies, from what I see, not for themselves. but to help boost the economy in general. they are talking about TARP type bailouts, but not for MS.Jun 14 15:15
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_Mutex_they were talking aobut the $700 bil bail out money that congress rejected, its not MS asking for $700 billion !!Jun 14 15:16
oiaohm_Mutex_:  without other companies MS does not have sales.Jun 14 15:18
_Mutex_exactly, its in MS's interest and the rest of america that your economy is strong, but claiming MS requested bailout money is not accurate, 5 seconds of reading the first link clearly states that.Jun 14 15:19
_Mutex_its also in RH's interest, and every other company in the US and probably many overseas ones as well, its a stimulus package, to kick start the economy. MS just tried to help get it through for the good of everyone.Jun 14 15:21
_Mutex_especially if you live and work in the US.Jun 14 15:21
oiaohmProblem here USA is taking out more debt to make the package.Jun 14 15:23
_Mutex_yes, it sure is, but the US is usually in deficetJun 14 15:24
_Mutex_except ofcourse at the end of the clinton terms, you had a net surplus at that time.Jun 14 15:25
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 15:25
DaemonMDVhe used accounting tricksJun 14 15:25
_Mutex_But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMOJun 14 15:25
DaemonMDVand the bubble he created with NAFTAJun 14 15:25
DaemonMDVClinton sold us down the riverJun 14 15:26
_Mutex_yes, I understand the success of clinton is directly proportional to whether you liked him or not. but they did have a large surplusJun 14 15:26
DaemonMDVnoJun 14 15:26
DaemonMDVthey used accounting tricksJun 14 15:26
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DaemonMDVlike stealing from Social Security to pay external debtJun 14 15:26
_Mutex_mabey so, but if he did Bush sold you over the waterfall, and through the rapidsJun 14 15:27
DaemonMDVI didn't say I liked Bush any more than I like ClintonJun 14 15:27
_Mutex_oh, your ss systems is a bit sucky.Jun 14 15:27
DaemonMDVthey were both a disasterJun 14 15:27
DaemonMDVjust in different packagingJun 14 15:27
_Mutex_but you cant spend $10 bil per month on a war for 10 years and not do huge damage to the economy either.Jun 14 15:28
DaemonMDVobviouslyJun 14 15:28
DaemonMDVbut Obama isn't doing anything to end the warJun 14 15:28
DaemonMDVhe's making it worseJun 14 15:28
DaemonMDVhe's committing more resources to occupy AfghanistanJun 14 15:29
_Mutex_he said he would but congress is screwing him over, in closing gitmoJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVand not actually taking anyone out of IraqJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVbullshitJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVhe's the Commander in ChiefJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVhe could order it shutJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVand he's hiding behind the "Congress won't let me" excuseJun 14 15:29
DaemonMDVno, if he wanted it closed, it would already be boarded up by nowJun 14 15:30
_Mutex_if he can get the money from somewhere else, I believe it was only about 88 mil, chicken feed.Jun 14 15:30
_Mutex_Yes, i tend to agree DaemonJun 14 15:30
DaemonMDVand how much does it cost to operate?Jun 14 15:30
DaemonMDVsee, we can play these little "I love Obama because he's such a crafty liar" games all dayJun 14 15:31
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 15:31
_Mutex_I have no idea, and i bet its not public knowledge eitherJun 14 15:31
DaemonMDVtruth is, we were screwed over no matter who won the electionJun 14 15:31
DaemonMDVand maybe just a tad more with McCainJun 14 15:31
DaemonMDVthe forces operating this country would never bankroll the campaign of a candidate they didn't already ownJun 14 15:32
DaemonMDVObama is just a salesman for the agenda of the banking cartelJun 14 15:32
schestowitzMicrosoft Buys Rosetta Assets http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/406859.htmlJun 14 15:33
DaemonMDVtell me how he and McCain pulled together $1.4 BILLION to campaign on without the help of some unsavory peopleJun 14 15:33
DaemonMDVI'm waiting...Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDVit wasn't $5 at a time from individual AmericansJun 14 15:34
_Mutex_the massive internet campain would of helped, but I dont know, I know there are laws limiting donations, and yes I know they can be worked around.Jun 14 15:34
DaemonMDVit was bribes and kickbacks and laundered moneyJun 14 15:34
DaemonMDVfrom special interestsJun 14 15:34
schestowitz<_Mutex_> But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMOJun 14 15:34
_Mutex_So it was not for sure.Jun 14 15:34
schestowitzI didn't make such a statementJun 14 15:34
schestowitzI said they lobbies for bailoutJun 14 15:34
schestowitz*bbiedJun 14 15:35
schestowitzWhich they didJun 14 15:35
schestowitzAnd added more links for contextJun 14 15:35
_Mutex_but not for them, for everyone else.Jun 14 15:35
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DaemonMDVa lot of the special interests donated to McCain AND ObamaJun 14 15:35
DaemonMDVto make sure they had the ear of whoever wonJun 14 15:35
_Mutex_yes, i agree they wanted to boost the economy, fair enought too.Jun 14 15:35
DaemonMDVthe Carlyl and Bilderbergs donated largely to McCain, and the illegal immigration, pharmaceuticals, and RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft to ObamaJun 14 15:36
DaemonMDVbut all of them played both sides to some extentJun 14 15:36
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DaemonMDVRepublicans vs. Democrats = Whoever wins, we loseJun 14 15:37
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DaemonMDVbrbJun 14 15:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft runs Anti-Google Whisper Campaign http://ping.fm/OJhOIJun 14 15:40
_Mutex_sorry Roy , i thought you said "Too many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailout, like the one ballmer begged for 8 months ago" I read that as MS were begging for a bailout 8 months ago, from the corrup pollies that can buy them a bailout. sorry I mis-understood.Jun 14 15:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft trying to rescue SCO's lawsuit? http://ping.fm/p3TDiJun 14 15:45
schestowitzGirl Scouts selling out to Microsoft for cash... http://tinyurl.com/nmunvhJun 14 15:56
DaemonMDVoh come on schestowitz, Girl Scout Patents, also available in Thin MintJun 14 15:58
schestowitz"Acer to offer Google's Android in netbook PCs"Jun 14 15:59
schestowitzSigns of erosionJun 14 16:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy Tiananmen democracy http://ping.fm/k2loiJun 14 16:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New PCs, no Windows. Watch this video: http://ping.fm/w7jttJun 14 16:00
DaemonMDVUbuntu is developing android compatibility layerJun 14 16:02
DaemonMDVshows you they feel threatened by itJun 14 16:02
schestowitzOf course they areJun 14 16:02
schestowitzTHeir business plan was to sell RemixJun 14 16:02
schestowitzGM's Demise Dooms Sirius  < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13776184&src=finance&ch=633473 >Jun 14 16:02
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Penguin Liberation Front is downJun 14 16:04
DaemonMDVserver failureJun 14 16:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reuters: Android Gains on Microsoft < http://ping.fm/Yyq5l >Jun 14 16:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GOOG's Android to Break Windows? < http://ping.fm/PFhBc >Jun 14 16:05
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft has a fairly new 'shill site' for virtualisation (look at the publishers trail, notice bias): http://ping.fm/m84uRJun 14 16:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle could sell Linux netbooks: http://ping.fm/UuUtBJun 14 16:10
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_Mutex_google 12 months ago $570 today $421 so a stock price drop of $149 in 12 months thats a fair bit.Jun 14 16:11
schestowitzVery little compared to general trneJun 14 16:13
schestowitzGoogle is no Linux, eitherJun 14 16:13
schestowitzIt's stupifying when people draw comparisons like MSFT vs IBM|Google to imply that GNU+Linux+FOSS is just one companyJun 14 16:13
schestowitzMicrosoft would LOVE it if all of FOSS was just a company to buy or assassinateJun 14 16:14
schestowitzWe are stronger apartJun 14 16:14
schestowitzTHey mess up GNOME?Jun 14 16:14
schestowitzNo problem. We have KDE, so they won't bother disruptingJun 14 16:14
schestowitzThey sign a patent deal with Xandros. Then Xandros will perishJun 14 16:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Missouri turns students to Microsoft customers, whether they like it or not http://ping.fm/2CXRNJun 14 16:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] How many more #Microsoft Twitter accounts are there going to be? and how many more are going to follow me? #windows #vistaJun 14 16:15
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DaemonMDVhttp://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/mandriva-users-penguin-liberation-front-is-downserver-failure/Jun 14 16:16
DaemonMDVthere we goJun 14 16:16
DaemonMDVthat should help anyone that Googles wondering what happenedJun 14 16:16
_Mutex_they can always say no,, (unles its a hostile takeover, which MS has not done), otherwise saying no is always an option, you need agreement between the buyer and the seller, so if one or the other does not like the deal, (like yahoo) they so no.Jun 14 16:16
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schestowitzGoogle CEO: “It’s not the first entry for Microsoft, They do this about once a year. From Bing’s perspective, they have a bunch of new ideas and there are some things that are missing. We think search is about comprehensiveness, freshness, scale and size for what we do. It’s difficult for them to copy that.”Jun 14 16:18
schestowitz_Goblin: check out http://finance.yahoo.com/news/What-An-AntiGoogle-Whisper-siliconalley-15415021.html?.v=5Jun 14 16:19
_Goblinchecking now...Jun 14 16:19
_Mutex_even hostile takeovers are not really "hostile" its just a term, for buying the business off the steakholders (share holders) instead of the managementJun 14 16:19
neighborleegoogle going down is like saying people will stop eating LOLJun 14 16:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet.Jun 14 16:20
schestowitzhttp://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090609-716131.htmlJun 14 16:21
_Goblinwow...a few revelations there...Jun 14 16:21
_Mutex_in the current financial climate, companies like google who get most of their revinue through advertising, will be feeling the pinch as business cut back on advertising budgets. but its only a short term problem.Jun 14 16:21
neighborleelolJun 14 16:22
schestowitzI've just realised that Bartz rhymes with fartzJun 14 16:24
neighborleeschestowitz, what did you drink this morning..I want some if its safe o_0Jun 14 16:24
_Mutex_even if its not safe :)Jun 14 16:24
neighborleeLOLJun 14 16:25
schestowitzNo drinks, sorryJun 14 16:25
neighborlee:)Jun 14 16:25
schestowitzBut I don't like BartzJun 14 16:25
schestowitzShe's a former partner of MSJun 14 16:25
neighborleeyeah well bout all I do   is wine..grape juice and topped off with small bits of wine..thats   my danger zone , high as it gets <har>Jun 14 16:25
neighborleeahhhJun 14 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_Goblin: yes, Microsoft pays Federated Media and Waggener Endstrom (where Ballmer's wife is from) to Turf' Twitter.Jun 14 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @davidgerard We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet.Jun 14 16:25
schestowitzneighborlee: it's a harmful drugJun 14 16:27
schestowitzAnd AFAIK not very effectiveJun 14 16:27
_Mutex_all the good ones areJun 14 16:27
_Mutex_well the fun ones anywayJun 14 16:27
schestowitzBut alcohol is the only drug I occasionally do. Never tried anything else..Jun 14 16:27
_Mutex_good for you,  im glad, :)Jun 14 16:27
neighborleebad for you today..good tomorrow..thats how things go these days :))Jun 14 16:29
DaemonMDVyeah, alcohol is pretty weak in the grand scheme of thingsJun 14 16:29
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 16:29
neighborleesmall amounts of wine..'moderation' are fine.Jun 14 16:29
neighborleeask the italians :)Jun 14 16:29
_Mutex_even good for you, all those nice anti-oxidents (whatever they are) :)Jun 14 16:29
neighborleethats what ive heard yesJun 14 16:29
schestowitzIn moderation, maybe.Jun 14 16:30
schestowitzBut it's disputedJun 14 16:30
*DaemonMDV wonders why font smoothing seems smoother in Mandriva FirefoxJun 14 16:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Iranian election: Mission accomplished http://notnews.today.com/?p=522Jun 14 16:30
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/12/03/glass-wine-a-day/Jun 14 16:30
schestowitzIf it sounds like wishful thinking, it usually is. A lot of junk-science thrives out there.Jun 14 16:31
_Mutex_mabey cleartype is enabled ?Jun 14 16:31
neighborleehttp://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/wine-how-much-is-good-for-you <is this coming up realllllllllllly slow for anyone elseJun 14 16:32
_Mutex_I cant get it at all !!Jun 14 16:34
neighborleehmmm wine makes you less obese ;00..hey thats a keeper right there ;)Jun 14 16:34
neighborleeweirdJun 14 16:34
schestowitzHow to Fix Microsoft for $5 Billion < http://seekingalpha.com/article/141090-how-to-fix-microsoft-for-5-billion?source=yahoo >  "Disclosure: I currently own MSFT and TSCM."Jun 14 16:34
_Mutex_LOL I like your thinking Neighborlee :)Jun 14 16:34
neighborleehaJun 14 16:34
schestowitzMicrosoft is already borrowing that kind of amounts. Maybe it wants to fix itselfJun 14 16:34
schestowitz> hmmm wine makes you less obeseJun 14 16:35
schestowitz"less obeseJun 14 16:35
neighborleeLOLJun 14 16:35
schestowitzLike half pregnant, almostJun 14 16:35
schestowitzThin elephantJun 14 16:35
_Mutex_$5 Billion, isnt that Bill Gates walking around money ?Jun 14 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality Internet Explorer makes your computer unsafe: http://digg.com/d1tn5Z?tJun 14 16:35
maxstirnerniceJun 14 16:36
neighborleeAlcohol also can have a very powerful effect and increase HDL "good" cholesterol by 20% if used moderately and in the context of a healthy diet along with regular physical activityJun 14 16:37
neighborlee^ from webMD articleJun 14 16:37
schestowitzFake Microsoft E-Mail Carries Real Malware <  http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3823481/Fake+Microsoft+EMail+Carries+Real+Malware.htm >Jun 14 16:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] U.S. Layoffs Mount < http://ping.fm/5XPGY > Ballmer Threatens Obama, Says He'll Move Jobs Overseas < http://ping.fm/Gcac2 >Jun 14 16:40
_Mutex_thats fairly old news :)Jun 14 16:41
schestowitzit isJun 14 16:41
*schestowitz catches up with MSFT newsJun 14 16:41
schestowitz700 down, about 700 to doJun 14 16:41
schestowitz*goJun 14 16:41
_Mutex_LOL good luck, rest your eyes :)Jun 14 16:41
schestowitzhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aliF6UqTf41g&refer=indiaJun 14 16:41
schestowitzI just glance at headlinesJun 14 16:42
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schestowitzValve Fans Form Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group < http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92174-Valve-Fans-Form-Left-4-Dead-2-Boycott-Group >Jun 14 16:42
neighborleethat ballmer thing must be a jokeJun 14 16:43
neighborleeplease tell me its a joke ;)Jun 14 16:43
schestowitz"This week at the Computex 2009 conference in Taiwan, Microsoft said it believes the term "netbook" should be abandoned in favor of "low-cost small notebook PC" in order to better reflect the fact that today's netbooks include broad functionality that goes beyond Web browsing. " http://www.crn.com/software/217701707;jsessionid=52FBACX1MBMUCQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVNJun 14 16:44
neighborleecause the laughable meter just PEGGED hard ;0-Jun 14 16:44
schestowitzneighborlee: no, it's not news eitherJun 14 16:44
schestowitzMcirosoft has been doing this for yearsJun 14 16:44
schestowitzFraud with Abramoff and othersJun 14 16:44
neighborlee:)Jun 14 16:44
schestowitzEnsuring they get cheap labourtJun 14 16:44
schestowitzGlobaliSFTJun 14 16:44
neighborleeyes I knowJun 14 16:44
neighborleeself evident especially with 360 support.partially why it  went back to store ;))Jun 14 16:45
neighborleewell along with high price of ownership ;)Jun 14 16:45
DaemonMDVlmao@the picJun 14 16:46
DaemonMDVhttp://www.escapistmagazine.com/images/display/57670.jpgJun 14 16:47
schestowitzBut the USian politicians have always been behind the curve and behind Microsoft.Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDVSteam is LETTING the boycott page stay up?Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDVon THEIR site?Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDVwhoaJun 14 16:48
neighborleewell unlike some..they allow freedom of  ahem..expression apparantly ;)Jun 14 16:49
schestowitzI don't get the deal with satanic-themed gamesJun 14 16:49
neighborleeDaemonMDV, sorry that was too easy and resistance was futile o_0Jun 14 16:49
schestowitzAre people lured into death and such things?Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDVschestowitz: Doom 3 was....alrightJun 14 16:49
DaemonMDVworth the $20Jun 14 16:49
schestowitzI ran it on Linux... demo..?Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDVI really bought it more cause Linux games are rareJun 14 16:49
DaemonMDVand good ones are even moresoJun 14 16:50
neighborleeschestowitz, imo its a expression of  angerJun 14 16:50
schestowitzhttp://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/05/1243220Jun 14 16:50
schestowitzMasochismJun 14 16:50
DaemonMDVschestowitz: More of a tradition reallyJun 14 16:50
DaemonMDVI've bought every id Software title since the original DOOMJun 14 16:50
schestowitz"Show you manhood. Kill... things."Jun 14 16:50
DaemonMDVthere was just nothing like it on PC til that pointJun 14 16:51
DaemonMDVgraphics wise it really catapulted the game industry forwardJun 14 16:51
neighborleeschestowitz, war training better stillJun 14 16:51
neighborleeschestowitz, look at the top games being played on gamespy servers...mainly all war gamesJun 14 16:51
DaemonMDVschestowitz: At least John Carmack always releases his enginesJun 14 16:51
DaemonMDVas GPLJun 14 16:51
DaemonMDVwhen he's done with themJun 14 16:51
neighborleeschestowitz, same for   top game list at like gamespot and such...Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDVthat's made a lot of Linux games possibleJun 14 16:51
neighborleeyes ID has been great in that regardJun 14 16:52
DaemonMDVso Doom 3 engine will be GPL free software at some point in the next few yearsJun 14 16:52
schestowitz"Windows guy" (by admission) Mike Elgan lobbies for the Vole Mike http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/3823411/Microsoft-vs-the-EU-When-Antitrust-is-Anti-Competitive.htmJun 14 16:52
DaemonMDVand Linux community will patch it up and give it a makeoverJun 14 16:52
DaemonMDVand make tons more games off of itJun 14 16:52
DaemonMDVI think the only original open source 3d game engine with Linux in mind is Cube 2Jun 14 16:53
schestowitzBlender makes modelsJun 14 16:53
DaemonMDVwell Cube and Cube 2Jun 14 16:53
schestowitzToss some waaaabits in thereJun 14 16:53
schestowitzAnd a Big BuckJun 14 16:54
DaemonMDVthen distros snub it cause he won't release his artworkJun 14 16:54
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DaemonMDVso I end up compiling it myselfJun 14 16:54
DaemonMDVUbuntu and Debian package itJun 14 16:54
schestowitzhttp://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3823391/Report+Microsoft+Phases+Out+13+Products.htm Report: Microsoft Phases Out 13 Products - it's already at least 15 and that's a LOWER boundJun 14 16:55
DaemonMDVMandriva and Fedora don'tJun 14 16:55
DaemonMDVOpenSuse doesJun 14 16:55
DaemonMDVoh well, I always keep GCC around anywayJun 14 16:55
DaemonMDVnever know when it will be usefulJun 14 16:55
DaemonMDVkernel-linus causes problems with dbus in GNOMEJun 14 16:56
DaemonMDVon Mandriva anywayJun 14 16:56
DaemonMDVI wonder what that's all aboutJun 14 16:56
schestowitzMicrosoft will save America... http://kliv.com/Microsoft-CEO-threatens-deeper-job-cuts-if-new-tax/4534103Jun 14 16:56
neighborleekewl..maybe they will go find jobs with companies that are ethical ;)Jun 14 16:57
DaemonMDVRed Hat has picked up a few former Microsoft programmers iircJun 14 16:58
DaemonMDVof course Red Hat eats up programmers from every software company with a brand nameJun 14 16:58
neighborlee:)Jun 14 16:58
DaemonMDVthey got Adam Williamson after Mandriva laid him offJun 14 16:59
neighborleetrue thatJun 14 16:59
schestowitz"Google: Citi Pounds The Table, Boosts Target To $580" http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/06/04/google-citi-pounds-the-table-boosts-target-to-580/#mod=yahoobarronsJun 14 16:59
DaemonMDVI hope Mandriva isn't getting ready to go bankrupt againJun 14 16:59
DaemonMDVthat would be a real lossJun 14 16:59
neighborleeits one of my favorite distro period...has been for sometimeJun 14 16:59
schestowitzWho in Red Hat is from MSFT?Jun 14 16:59
schestowitzGive namesJun 14 17:00
neighborleeI love urpm* tools...always loved it for finding header filesJun 14 17:00
schestowitzOr else it's bunkJun 14 17:00
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DaemonMDVtrying to look it upJun 14 17:01
DaemonMDVremind me to bookmark everythingJun 14 17:01
schestowitzBigger companies distribute Linux nowJun 14 17:01
DaemonMDVjust every page I visitJun 14 17:01
schestowitzIBM, Google, Oracle..Jun 14 17:01
DaemonMDVyeah, IBM does RHEL and SuseJun 14 17:01
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DaemonMDVmy dad ended up buying OpenSuse box sets cause it's what he was used to from workJun 14 17:02
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 17:02
DaemonMDVI ended up having to save his system from ReiserFS when it ate his root partitionJun 14 17:02
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 17:02
schestowitz"Microsoft to locate offices in St. Paul" http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2009/06/01/daily36.html Jun 14 17:02
maxstirnerhttp://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/13/im-fed-with-mono/ <- beranger is getting slashdotted or ddosed due to his mono post :DJun 14 17:03
DaemonMDVturns out Reiser is not very fault tolerant and a bitch to repairJun 14 17:03
DaemonMDVit even lets you use the "repair internal structure" optionJun 14 17:03
DaemonMDVwith no warningJun 14 17:03
DaemonMDVwhich sounds like a good idea til you do itJun 14 17:03
DaemonMDVafter that you're lucky if there's anything left to salvageJun 14 17:04
twitterthe linux hater writes about mono?  ughJun 14 17:04
_Mutex_thats been up for a couple of days I think. I did not think it would take him long.Jun 14 17:05
DaemonMDVSuse still supports any Resier partitions you haveJun 14 17:05
taconetwitter: lolJun 14 17:05
DaemonMDVbut won't let you make new onesJun 14 17:05
DaemonMDV*ReiserJun 14 17:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Some compatibility is more backward than others. http://is.gd/11K3CJun 14 17:05
twittergerard is very funnyJun 14 17:06
schestowitzmaxstirner: excellent, thank youJun 14 17:06
schestowitztwitter: linux hater is a friend of MiguelJun 14 17:06
DaemonMDVschestowitz: You could crash Windows 98 by typing C:\con\conJun 14 17:06
schestowitzAt least they know each otherJun 14 17:06
DaemonMDVinto ExplorerJun 14 17:06
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 17:06
schestowitzSo know what to expectJun 14 17:06
DaemonMDVIE also let web pages load local folders in iframesJun 14 17:07
DaemonMDVso you could crash someones PC by loading C:\con\con in an iframeJun 14 17:07
schestowitzLOLJun 14 17:07
DaemonMDVand the thing wasJun 14 17:08
DaemonMDVit only crashed IE usersJun 14 17:08
DaemonMDVbecause only IE understood itJun 14 17:08
schestowitzPing of death...Jun 14 17:08
schestowitzMalicious 10100110010101010101010100101Jun 14 17:08
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DaemonMDVWindows has had some rather horrendous and obviously stupid an simple exploits in the past, at least there haven't been any C:\con\con's or port nukes in VistaJun 14 17:09
twitterhttp://www.linuxplus.net/2009/06/14/im-fed-up-with-mono/ has parts of itJun 14 17:09
DaemonMDVmaybe it has improved?Jun 14 17:09
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 17:09
twitterCarla Schroder should not have stepped into that one.Jun 14 17:09
schestowitzMicrosoft Money....... http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/new-atm-malware-captures-pins-and-cash/Jun 14 17:09
schestowitzNot yours, the criminals'Jun 14 17:09
twitterAll the snakes are biting her for trying to be fair.Jun 14 17:09
schestowitzReally?Jun 14 17:10
schestowitzWell, she never liked MonoJun 14 17:10
DaemonMDVschestowitz: There were also spyware peddlers that used the ifrome trick to load your My Documents folder in IE and say "See, we can see your files, you need our security software"Jun 14 17:10
schestowitzBut she tried to look impartialJun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV*iframeJun 14 17:10
twitter" I was exceedingly pissed off by a long pro-Mono plea by Jo Shields, which I have read as posted by Carla Schroder. I can’t comment on it, as I don’t want to read it again. It hurts my guts."Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDVthe software would be like $30Jun 14 17:10
twitterBerengerJun 14 17:10
DaemonMDVand flick a registry setting offJun 14 17:11
neighborleeberanger is timintoutJun 14 17:11
schestowitz*LOL*Jun 14 17:11
schestowitzBergy..Jun 14 17:11
DaemonMDVso IE couldn't load local folders anymoreJun 14 17:11
twitterHe goes on to swipe at Java too.  It's mud on everyone's face, just like M$ wants.Jun 14 17:11
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DaemonMDVJava does suckJun 14 17:11
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DaemonMDVthe concept of efficiency was just totally lost on JavaJun 14 17:12
twitterThere's a larger undercurrent here - the threat of infiltration - that will backfire badly in M$'s face.Jun 14 17:12
DaemonMDVMono apps seem to take about 10% more RAM than native programsJun 14 17:12
twitterThe largest employer of foreign workers (H1B visa) in the US should not throw infiltration stones.Jun 14 17:12
DaemonMDVJava programs are like 400%-1000%Jun 14 17:13
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schestowitzMicrosoft Fears the Netbook http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/04/microsoft-fears-the-netbook.aspxJun 14 17:13
schestowitzFrom the MS press evenJun 14 17:13
DaemonMDVcheck out Vuze vs Transmission or Frostwire/Limewire to Gtk-GnutellaJun 14 17:13
DaemonMDVyou need look no further to see Java apps are bloatJun 14 17:13
schestowitzFor some thing it's OKJun 14 17:14
schestowitzLike a Web server with 8GB of RAMJun 14 17:14
schestowitzNot only..Jun 14 17:14
DaemonMDVyeah, some of the Vuze bloat is the Vuze layer, but you can disable that to get Azureus backJun 14 17:14
twitterI'm amazed at M$'s gall.  10 years after M$ swore that letting people look at the Windose source code would be a national security risk, they employ people from Communist China to make software for the US armed forces.Jun 14 17:14
schestowitzI'm just sayin'Jun 14 17:14
DaemonMDVand it's still too heavyJun 14 17:14
schestowitzTo program quickly it's hugely valuableJun 14 17:14
schestowitzBut Java ain't for tiny computersJun 14 17:14
schestowitzAlthough many phones and Android too uses itJun 14 17:14
schestowitzDon't diss Java so fastyJun 14 17:15
schestowitz*fastJun 14 17:15
DaemonMDVSun brought Mono/.Net on themselvesJun 14 17:15
DaemonMDVby making Java so terribleJun 14 17:15
twittersomeone I'm ignoring does not like Java, ha ha.Jun 14 17:15
schestowitzThe anti-Java slogJun 14 17:15
twitterongoingJun 14 17:15
DaemonMDVFrom a technical standpoint, Java apps would not work on a netbookJun 14 17:15
DaemonMDVMono apps wouldJun 14 17:16
twitterredoubled now that it's free softwareJun 14 17:16
DaemonMDVthat's the pointJun 14 17:16
schestowitzToo badJun 14 17:16
DaemonMDVwho cares what the license is if you can't use it?Jun 14 17:16
schestowitzYou're all bunkJun 14 17:16
schestowitzJava ALREADY runs on netbooksJun 14 17:16
schestowitzLots of AndroidJun 14 17:16
_Mutex_do some research, youll find that MS showed China all its source code, for them to do security analysis, also the US Governemnt many universities have access to the source, as well as many independent third party developers.Jun 14 17:16
schestowitzNow have a nice cup of STFUJun 14 17:16
DaemonMDVyeah, the stripped down versionJun 14 17:16
schestowitzThat's JavaJun 14 17:17
DaemonMDVonce you sufficiently cripple it, it will scale to devicesJun 14 17:17
DaemonMDVwowJun 14 17:17
schestowitzKind of like the kernelJun 14 17:17
DaemonMDVnever would have guessedJun 14 17:17
schestowitzNot 400MB of itJun 14 17:17
schestowitzTroll.Jun 14 17:17
twitter" Netbook users don't want to pay a premium for a Windows operating system anyway, especially when open-source solutions such as Ubuntu -- already a popular choice with some netbook cradlers -- can also get them where they need to go."Jun 14 17:18
DaemonMDVif we scale it to where it's not really Java andmore and you can only use a restricted subset, it's only twice as bloated as C#?Jun 14 17:18
DaemonMDVis that all they have?Jun 14 17:18
schestowitzMicrosoft Urges Java Developers To Assume .Net Interoperability  http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/soa/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217701933&subSection=NewsJun 14 17:18
DaemonMDV*anymoreJun 14 17:18
schestowitzMS is desperate to slog JavaJun 14 17:18
neighborleehey n ow be nice to java..it did bring you back images from the red planet ;)Jun 14 17:18
schestowitzJust needs some shills spread in developers sites like SlashdotJun 14 17:18
schestowitzMS: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input.  Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them.  Thus, you control mindshare!"Jun 14 17:19
twitterwhat kind of java developer is taking cues from M$?Jun 14 17:19
schestowitzIt''s a recurring theme: "control of the channels"Jun 14 17:19
schestowitzor "channels of communication"Jun 14 17:19
twitter" maybe Microsoft thinks that belittling netbooks with a "low cost" tag is one way to get consumers to pay more for full-sized laptops that contain higher-margin versions of its operating system."  ha ahJun 14 17:19
schestowitzLike conferences, sites, Twitter Jun 14 17:19
neighborleeIn fact,Jun 14 17:20
neighborleemany of the mission operations workstations for theJun 14 17:20
neighborleeMars Exploration Rover Mission use Linux as theirJun 14 17:20
neighborleeoperating system.Jun 14 17:20
_Mutex_I think people label netbooks as low cost mainly because they are low cost.  (and they are ) :)Jun 14 17:20
twitterI thought most java was behind the scenes stuff, never touches Windoze.Jun 14 17:20
neighborleegahJun 14 17:20
schestowitzMicrosoft Exec: Cloud Computing Could Undermine Margins  http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090604-718695.htmlJun 14 17:20
twitterWell ..... the line, "don't buy that, it's cheap and does what you want," is going to go over like a lead balloon.Jun 14 17:21
_Mutex_http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/090414-spirit-reboot.html  Mars Rover Inexplicably Reboots ComputerJun 14 17:22
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_Mutex_yes, you cant say dont buy them because they arecheap, mobile phones are cheap too but they do the job they were intended for very well.Jun 14 17:22
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schestowitzDarryl K. Taft has been flogging a lot of pro-MS recently, e.g. http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Applications/IBM-Declines-Challenge-Asks-Microsoft-to-Kill-AntiIBM-Web-Site-719488/Jun 14 17:24
schestowitzHe used to be more balancedJun 14 17:24
schestowitzZiff DavisJun 14 17:24
DaemonMDVthe Mars rovers used VXWorksJun 14 17:24
DaemonMDVnot LinuxJun 14 17:25
twitterM$ is screwed over netbooks and gnu/linux because their core market was cheapskates.Jun 14 17:25
neighborleeDaemonMDV, I got it from nasa article.Jun 14 17:25
DaemonMDVWikipedia says it's VXWorksJun 14 17:25
schestowitzNASA uses Linux tooJun 14 17:25
schestowitzDepends on the missionJun 14 17:25
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorksJun 14 17:26
schestowitzNASA did more than one mission, XP DemonJun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The Deep Space Program Science Experiment (DSPSE) also known as Clementine (spacecraft) [13]Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter [14]Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The Phoenix Mars Lander [15]Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The Deep Impact space probeJun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The James Webb Space Telescope (in development)Jun 14 17:26
schestowitzBut it does not stop you from FUDingJun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * The Spirit and Opportunity Mars Exploration Rovers [16]Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV    * Stardust (spacecraft)Jun 14 17:26
schestowitzBecause you MUST downplay itJun 14 17:26
DaemonMDVNASA uses VXWorksJun 14 17:26
neighborleeurlJun 14 17:26
schestowitzThey also use FedoraJun 14 17:26
schestowitzThey also use UbuntuJun 14 17:26
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorksJun 14 17:26
schestowitzAnd I have recent URLsJun 14 17:26
schestowitzFrom 2008Jun 14 17:26
neighborleehttp://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:X46kjBHxHBYJ:www.eclipse.org/community/casestudies/NASAfinal.pdf+nasa+mars+lander+java&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=usJun 14 17:27
DaemonMDVLinux really isn't fault tolerant enough to trust with a spacecraftJun 14 17:28
DaemonMDVthat's what VXWorks and things like MINIX do wellJun 14 17:28
DaemonMDVerror avoidance and recoveryJun 14 17:29
twitterI see Mutex wants some M$ Failure schooling.  Here you go, The M$ Death Watch  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707Jun 14 17:29
DaemonMDVby its nature, Linux can never be as reliableJun 14 17:29
neighborleeI said workstations..Jun 14 17:29
DaemonMDVdoes it mean Linux sucks? No. It means it's not cut out for that taskJun 14 17:29
DaemonMDVMINIX and VXWorks have a small kernel of a few thousand lines of code and everything else is a module and if the module fails, the kernel can resurrect itJun 14 17:30
DaemonMDVwhere Linux would just dieJun 14 17:30
DaemonMDVthat comes at the cost of performanceJun 14 17:30
*maxstirner is enjoying the microtoss death watchJun 14 17:31
_Mutex_The version of its software usedfor the Mars Exploration RoverMission was not based on Eclipsebut used open-source softwarein many areasJun 14 17:31
DaemonMDVI happen to agree with Andrew Tanenbaum that on a modern system, it's worth the tradeoff of 5% performance for bulletproof reliablityJun 14 17:31
DaemonMDVbut Linus Torvalds doesn't think thatJun 14 17:31
DaemonMDVso OKJun 14 17:31
DaemonMDVeven Microsoft is trying to get things out of kernel modeJun 14 17:32
_Mutex_good code and you can have both, no need to compromiseJun 14 17:32
DaemonMDVwrongJun 14 17:32
DaemonMDVit's impossible to debug 11 million lines of kernel code to that degree of reliabilityJun 14 17:32
_Mutex_there is little overhead in effectively dealing with exceptions.Jun 14 17:32
DaemonMDVa 14,000 line kernel is much easier to stabilizeJun 14 17:33
_Mutex_acutally I dont agree, sure its impossible to debut 11 mil lines of code, but youll never ever have to do that,Jun 14 17:33
DaemonMDVunfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relicsJun 14 17:33
schestowitzIntuit cutting 4% of workforce to 'manage resources' < http://www.marketwatch.com/story/intuit-cutting-4-of-workforce-to-manage-costs?siteid=yhoof >Jun 14 17:33
schestowitzGNUcash++;Jun 14 17:33
DaemonMDVfrom a time when the performance penalty was too greatJun 14 17:33
neighborleeschestowitz, hehJun 14 17:33
_Mutex_you decode one function at a time, its best to keep functions 1 page size, so all you do is debug 1 function at a time, just like it was written.Jun 14 17:34
_Mutex_how do you eat an elphant ?? one bite ate a timeJun 14 17:34
DaemonMDVif something dies in userspace, the kernel has a grim reaper process that takes it away and spawns a new copyJun 14 17:34
DaemonMDVright awayJun 14 17:34
DaemonMDVLinux can't do thatJun 14 17:34
DaemonMDVbecause most services run in the kernelJun 14 17:34
schestowitzDaemonMDV: you're pissing off with your utter liesJun 14 17:34
DaemonMDVit's not liesJun 14 17:35
schestowitzAny reduced Linux is reliableJun 14 17:35
schestowitzYou're just posingJun 14 17:35
DaemonMDVlook at the MINIX designJun 14 17:35
_Mutex_well that is one think the recent windows has over it then.Jun 14 17:35
schestowitzAnd aggravatingJun 14 17:35
DaemonMDVmuch better for reliabilityJun 14 17:35
schestowitzWasting people's timeJun 14 17:35
schestowitz>> <DaemonMDV> unfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relicsJun 14 17:35
schestowitzYeah, and Google sucksJun 14 17:35
schestowitzAnd Bush the best president everJun 14 17:35
DaemonMDVthey areJun 14 17:35
DaemonMDVthey're obsoleteJun 14 17:35
DaemonMDVbuilt to run on 386sJun 14 17:36
*schestowitz ingores DaemonMDV Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDVand grown from thatJun 14 17:36
_Mutex_your on your down DaemonMDVJun 14 17:36
DaemonMDVhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3#Reincarnate_dead_or_sick_driversJun 14 17:36
DaemonMDVA special process, called the reincarnation server, periodically pings each device driver. If the driver dies or fails to respond correctly to pings, the reincarnation server automatically replaces it with a fresh copy. The detection and replacement of non-functioning drivers is automatic, without any user action required. This feature does not work for disk drivers at present, but in the next release the system will be able toJun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV recover even disk drivers, which will be shadowed in RAM. Driver recovery does not affect running processes.Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDVLinux cannot do thatJun 14 17:36
neighborlee" including Castor, a data-bindingJun 14 17:37
neighborleeframework; Java Expression Parser, a system forJun 14 17:37
neighborleeparsing and evaluating mathematical expressions;  "..java was used ;)Jun 14 17:37
DaemonMDVit can do that because the service that dies was not running in kernel spaceJun 14 17:37
DaemonMDVif something dies in Linux it can take out the whole kernelJun 14 17:37
DaemonMDVand freeze the computerJun 14 17:37
_Mutex_yes neighborlee, ive been reading your link, its seems the JPL boys are keen fossiesJun 14 17:37
neighborleekkJun 14 17:38
DaemonMDVLinux has put performance way above reliabilityJun 14 17:38
DaemonMDVin deciding to run most things in the kernelJun 14 17:38
DaemonMDVwhich is why Linux has to do stupid and silly things like "TAINT" the kernel if you use binary blob driversJun 14 17:39
DaemonMDVwhen MINIX would really not have to give a crapJun 14 17:39
neighborleeand as noted earlier..in fact many of the mission operatives workstations for the mars exploration rover mission use linux as their operating system.Jun 14 17:39
_Mutex_and using open source tool chains, !! :)Jun 14 17:40
schestowitzHow is this news? BHS students become Microsoft certified < http://nwanews.com/bcdr/News/74110/ >Jun 14 17:40
DaemonMDVwell, if I use Nvidia drivers or something in Linux, it can crash the kernel because Linux is not robust and has no way of saving itselfJun 14 17:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft accused over web browser figures < http://ping.fm/DPAvH >Jun 14 17:40
DaemonMDVif Nvidia drivers crash on Windows XP it does the same thing, the system freezes, I have to hole the power button inJun 14 17:41
neighborleeDaemonMDV, and that happens about as often as on windows...almost never < in my many years experience anyway>Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDVin Vista the screen would flicker and tell me it recovered from a video crashJun 14 17:41
DaemonMDVcause the driver is in userspaceJun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV*holdJun 14 17:41
DaemonMDVho-hum, the day goes onJun 14 17:41
DaemonMDVno work lostJun 14 17:41
DaemonMDVLinux badly needs a user-mode driver framework because it's showing its ageJun 14 17:42
neighborleevista is bad reference..id avoid it if I were you ;)Jun 14 17:42
DaemonMDVeverytime you do something X doesn't like, it blows up and the shrapnel takes out the kernelJun 14 17:42
neighborleewindows 7 is set to be practically free for  upgrading users LOLJun 14 17:43
neighborleegee, I wonder why-=Jun 14 17:43
DaemonMDV"With our apologies"Jun 14 17:43
DaemonMDVwould be niceJun 14 17:43
schestowitzWhat a STUPID idea: Why Microsoft should buy Palm < http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/why-microsoft-should-buy-palm-605583 >. The author is either ignoramus or trollingJun 14 17:43
maxstirnerdont think thats very sensible, the vista-buying idiots may be just the right victims for another round of rubbishJun 14 17:43
twitterEveryone forced to use Windoze knows that it blows large chunks and wastes both time and money.  They also know that gnu/linux is reliable, which is why Google is the search engine of choice at M$.Jun 14 17:43
_Mutex_you know why ??  dont palm own the term "netbook" ??Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDVanyone who tries to get Linux to play a video game will long for the stability of VistaJun 14 17:44
twitterTech radar editor is an Ed Bott lover.Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDVseriosulyJun 14 17:44
maxstirneri thought thats intelJun 14 17:44
schestowitzmaxstirner: in relation to what?Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDVyou're jsut as likely to crash X as to get the damned game workingJun 14 17:44
schestowitz_Mutex_: no, PsionJun 14 17:44
_Mutex_ahh, knew it was a p-somethingJun 14 17:44
twittersee comments from last night about tech radarJun 14 17:44
neighborleeDaemonMDV, thats only a current market mindset , but lets not dwell on obvious things ;)Jun 14 17:44
_Mutex_close but no cigarlJun 14 17:44
maxstirnerschestowitz: i meant the upgrade should be expensive, as people who got vista are likely to fall for the "+1 myth"Jun 14 17:44
schestowitztwitter: any proof for that?Jun 14 17:45
schestowitzThey trolls a bit from thereJun 14 17:45
schestowitz'xept when they import from TuxRadar (LXF)Jun 14 17:45
twitterlet me get the link again.Jun 14 17:45
DaemonMDVChances of crashing Linux with a Linux native game, about 1 in 4, chances of crashing it with Wine, almost certainly a few timesJun 14 17:45
schestowitzBott is MS PRJun 14 17:45
schestowitzWindows booksJun 14 17:45
DaemonMDVthen distros always do their own stupidity, like Mandriva not including libraries to make Wine work with the sound systemJun 14 17:46
schestowitzmacabe__: Vista=Windows 6.0Jun 14 17:46
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 17:46
schestowitzVista is Windows 6.1Jun 14 17:46
DaemonMDVor at least depend on said librariesJun 14 17:46
schestowitzBased on the Win RegistryJun 14 17:46
twitter Jason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic, wrote this beauty (copied to zdnet) http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633Jun 14 17:46
schestowitzIt's got a new themeJun 14 17:46
schestowitzAnd many bribed bloggersJun 14 17:46
schestowitzDual-core beatsJun 14 17:46
schestowitz*beastsJun 14 17:47
twitterthe Palm Troll is more of the same M$ propaganda.Jun 14 17:47
twitterTech Republic should be ignored.Jun 14 17:47
schestowitzWait..Jun 14 17:47
_Mutex_I wonder if they base the build numbers on version or 1000 builds per OS version, my Vista is build 6002 and win7 is 7100Jun 14 17:47
schestowitzJason Hiner>???Jun 14 17:47
schestowitzHe's a Microsoft fanJun 14 17:47
schestowitzAnti-Linux tooJun 14 17:47
_Mutex_mabey xp was 5000 ishJun 14 17:47
schestowitzWhich is impliedJun 14 17:47
schestowitzAnd George Ou is in Tech RepublicJun 14 17:47
twitterHe was praising Ed Bott in that horrible article.Jun 14 17:48
schestowitzWhich is of course FOSS-hostileJun 14 17:48
schestowitzHiner started writing in BTL some months agoJun 14 17:48
schestowitzI was not happyJun 14 17:48
twitterOu and Bott were the vicious attack dogs against Peter Guttmann.Jun 14 17:48
schestowitzBut ZDNet was already trashJun 14 17:48
schestowitzHiner linking to Bott makes senseJun 14 17:49
schestowitzBut where does TechRadar come into this?Jun 14 17:49
twitterI don't know, but it started showing up in Google News.Jun 14 17:49
schestowitzBott was among the bribed bloggersJun 14 17:49
schestowitzMS gave him a $2000 laptopJun 14 17:49
schestowitzGuess what he wrote?Jun 14 17:49
_Mutex_zdnet is getting more and more pro windows,  reading the EU, IE thing, 152 talkback most were against the EU,  putting US business above EU's cliamsJun 14 17:50
_Mutex_A good report ?? :)Jun 14 17:50
_Mutex_glowing ?Jun 14 17:50
twitterI have a funny Ou article.  http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/195530Jun 14 17:50
_Mutex_$2000 worthJun 14 17:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Ricochet days. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/7586.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/521252.htmlJun 14 17:50
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twitterGeorge Ou's video codec problems sound a lot like DeamonFskTroll's problems.Jun 14 17:51
schestowitz_Mutex_: yes, among the early reviewsJun 14 17:52
schestowitzThey controlled initial impressionsJun 14 17:52
schestowitzOnly bribed bloggers (maybe 70 of them) got a laptop with prebeta of vIsta7Jun 14 17:53
schestowitzNo-one complainedJun 14 17:53
schestowitzWow. How can THAT be?Jun 14 17:53
DaemonMDVactually, his bitching about Windows Movie Maker is wrongJun 14 17:53
DaemonMDVit does support WMV-HDJun 14 17:53
schestowitzThe laptops were given by Waggener EndtrommJun 14 17:53
DaemonMDVbut not on Basic, Business, or EnterpriseJun 14 17:53
DaemonMDVjust Home Premium and UltimateJun 14 17:53
schestowitzPeople who wrote negatively about Microsoft got blacklistedJun 14 17:53
schestowitzEdelman did the same thing for MS in 2006Jun 14 17:53
schestowitzThey swapped shilling teamsJun 14 17:53
twitterM$'s whole PR system of embargoes and conferences is designed to manipulate reporters.  Those who write favorably are fed more often.  Those who don't are ignored, fired and that kind of thing.  Advertising budgets and information are used as weapons.Jun 14 17:54
twitterEverything is War to M$.Jun 14 17:55
schestowitzYes, welcome to realityJun 14 17:55
schestowitzSpread the information.Jun 14 17:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Forrester has done a lot of work for MS and against FOSS recently. Microsoft paid them for anti-Linux before, so be careful.Jun 14 17:55
schestowitzCheck out the mug of MOG's colleague, Katharine Hadow http://ssljournal.ulitzer.com/node/963152 WTF?Jun 14 17:56
schestowitzAnd MOG uses as her mug some photo of the 80sJun 14 17:56
twitterNormal business seeks to create value by processing raw materials into something society wants.  M$ seeks to destroy resources and control vital pieces of the economy through impediments.Jun 14 17:56
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schestowitzMicrosoft Chutzpah on Full Display in Attempt to Rename Netbook  < http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4426.html >DJun 14 17:58
schestowitzDon't ever say "smartbooks"Jun 14 17:58
schestowitzThat's what MS wantsJun 14 17:58
schestowitzTo ridicule some device na,eJun 14 17:58
schestowitzI never write netbook either (almost never)Jun 14 17:58
schestowitzCall it what it isJun 14 17:58
schestowitzSub-notebooksJun 14 17:58
twitterHadow wanted to look avant gaurde or artistic, I suppose.  Looks like a drawing from the 20's.Jun 14 17:58
schestowitzLike small notebooksJun 14 17:58
twitteror Playboy.Jun 14 17:58
schestowitzThat would mess with MS' business Jun 14 17:58
_Mutex_knee topsJun 14 17:58
schestowitzImplying you can get a noitebooks that runs for 8hrs and costs $199Jun 14 17:59
schestowitzHow much does Vista7 plan to cost?Jun 14 17:59
schestowitzLike 2 notebooks with linux?Jun 14 17:59
twitterYou can't get a notebook that costs $200 and runs for 8 hours?Jun 14 17:59
schestowitzYou canJun 14 17:59
schestowitzSmall notebooksJun 14 17:59
schestowitzWith ARM chipsJun 14 17:59
schestowitzNot yetJun 14 17:59
twitterrightJun 14 18:00
schestowitzWhen it's out in the marketJun 14 18:00
schestowitzHere is a video. Watch it: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/Jun 14 18:00
twitterThey are already on the market, they are just crippled with terrible software - iPhone.Jun 14 18:00
schestowitzIphone is rubbishJun 14 18:00
schestowitzNo keyboardJun 14 18:00
schestowitzNo computerJun 14 18:00
schestowitzNo mouseJun 14 18:00
schestowitzJust jerking off with phonecallsJun 14 18:01
twitterThere's nothing wrong with the hardware.Jun 14 18:01
schestowitzIt's not a computerJun 14 18:01
twitterit has the power to do what people want, the software simply prevents it.Jun 14 18:01
schestowitzToo small, no peripheral for interaction that's fastJun 14 18:01
maxstirnerthe netbook term also implicitly refers to the modern usage pattern (googledocs etc) and is associated with linux pre-installationJun 14 18:01
schestowitzSmall displayJun 14 18:01
twitteriphone is indeed a computerJun 14 18:01
twitterit is a crippled computerJun 14 18:01
maxstirnerthere could be a bluetooth keyboard i suppose.. it is a bit of a jokeJun 14 18:01
schestowitzmaxstirner: yes, but the device is not to do with usage typeJun 14 18:01
twitterusers may like the interface, but they would like it better with choiceJun 14 18:02
schestowitznotebooks does not imply it's a book (note books)Jun 14 18:02
schestowitzIt's a computerJun 14 18:02
_Mutex_I think they call it embeddedJun 14 18:02
maxstirnerschestowitz: i am just saying that this may be bothering the MS microsoft cliqueJun 14 18:02
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twitteran iPhone hooked up to a larger screen and keyboard would be a desktop.Jun 14 18:02
schestowitztwitter: does iphone do cut and paste yet ;-) ? (it does)Jun 14 18:02
twitterif only the software would allowJun 14 18:02
Omar87Hello there..?Jun 14 18:02
_GoblinhiJun 14 18:03
schestowitzHeyJun 14 18:03
twitterWhat the public needs to know is that ARM can do everything their desktop does, if only it has the right software - GNU/Linux.Jun 14 18:03
maxstirnerberanger site is back..Jun 14 18:03
schestowitzMicrosoft bans XP on hybrid storage netbooks http://www.techspot.com/news/34999-microsoft-bans-xp-on-hybrid-storage-netbooks.htmlJun 14 18:03
schestowitzMicrosoft Ban Hybrid Storage Systems so MSI Wind U115 Pulled. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/8-2&fd=A&url=http://www.cheaplaptops.org.uk/20090608/microsoft-ban-hybrid-storage-systems-so-msi-wind-u115-pulled/&cid=1255683579&ei=ZfcsSuKzA4zSjAeXvPC8BQ&usg=AFQjCNGwolzzCXiVbt8Fy3DGg9VyiSeaOgJun 14 18:03
schestowitz"Microsoft reportedly bans netbooks with hybrid storage systems ... "Jun 14 18:04
maxstirnerwhys that?Jun 14 18:04
DaemonMDVI hope those XP systems aren't shipping with IE 6Jun 14 18:04
DaemonMDVsweet zombie jesusJun 14 18:04
twitteriPhone is a good demonstration of the hardware capability.  It is popular and powerful enough to do most of what the public wants.  The software limits annoy users - it has a camera, for example, but does not do SIP video phone via wifi.Jun 14 18:04
maxstirnerthats due to the mobiel phone companies not enjoying a phone doing voip ;)Jun 14 18:05
twitterARM with free software will have all the hardware power but none of the software limitations.Jun 14 18:05
DaemonMDVyeah, but the only hope is that someone can reverse engineer it and load their own firmwareJun 14 18:05
twitterany way you put it, max, it's a non free software problem.Jun 14 18:05
DaemonMDVcause big companies are the only ones with the resources to make that hardwareJun 14 18:05
twitterit does not matter who the owner and limiter are, the limits still suck life.Jun 14 18:06
DaemonMDVwell, buying a black box device you know you have no control overJun 14 18:07
DaemonMDVthen bitching about itJun 14 18:07
_Mutex_the only software limitation is with the ARM CPU, no matter what the OS, its does not do pre-emptive multi-tasking, it multi-tasks, but using timeslicing, and no matter the OS it wont deal with lots of threads well.Jun 14 18:07
DaemonMDVthat's retardedJun 14 18:07
DaemonMDVjust don't buy itJun 14 18:07
twitterM$'s netbook limitations are already failing.  Hardware makers are more afraid of stagnant sales than they are of M$ right now, and M$ has few carrots to offer.Jun 14 18:09
schestowitzObama Tells American Businesses to Drop Dead: Kevin Hassett  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnUJun 14 18:09
maxstirnerthey did get asus to jump ship, i was surprisedJun 14 18:09
schestowitz"Once that happens, their new pay czar Kenneth Feinberg can set the wage for everybody and Rahm Emanuel can stack the boards of all of our companies with his political cronies. "Jun 14 18:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Windows is not yet ready for the Desktop http://ping.fm/o1rnlJun 14 18:10
schestowitz'“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said, “We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S.” If Microsoft, perhaps our most competitive company, has to abandon the U.S. in order to continue to thrive, who exactly is going to stay? 'Jun 14 18:11
schestowitzWhat are these lobbyists in BloobergJun 14 18:11
schestowitzWhen I saw the headline I thought it was a tabloidJun 14 18:11
maxstirnerfar-right economics commentators..Jun 14 18:11
_Mutex_not foss, its allready UK based :)Jun 14 18:12
schestowitz"Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He was an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.) "Jun 14 18:12
maxstirnertypical in US press, its like fox going into "holocaust all the arabs mode" during the iraq warJun 14 18:12
maxstirnerAEI is extremely right-wingJun 14 18:12
schestowitzAEI?Jun 14 18:12
maxstirnermerican Enterprise InstituteJun 14 18:13
maxstirnerAJun 14 18:13
maxstirner"think tank"Jun 14 18:13
maxstirnerhttp://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/os_x_snow_leopard_vs_windows?utm_source=most_pop_dugg <- OS X Snow Leopard vs. Windows 7Jun 14 18:14
schestowitzAnother slogger: "Should Microsoft Buy Palm?" http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/should_microsof_2.html;jsessionid=LMPWB30KCWHFEQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JVNJun 14 18:14
schestowitzQuestion mark for trollingJun 14 18:14
schestowitzAnd I recognise the authorJun 14 18:14
schestowitzhe's anti-LinuxJun 14 18:14
schestowitzNot just the pubiication he writes forJun 14 18:14
schestowitzThey seem to be slogging PalmJun 14 18:15
schestowitzThink. Tank.Jun 14 18:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Firefox 3.5 Preview Shows New Hope For Open Media Standards: http://digg.com/d1tnRQ?tJun 14 18:15
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schestowitzThink tank thinking of tanks or just sitting there all day like the Thinking Man trying to save humanity?Jun 14 18:16
maxstirnerproducing scientific-looking economic reports for money, essentially marketing a political agendaJun 14 18:16
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maxstirnerthese are commercial entities, no independent funding or neutral stance (beyond the pretense) includedJun 14 18:17
schestowitzOf courseJun 14 18:17
schestowitzDid you see the latest in Groklaw?Jun 14 18:18
schestowitzLast night that isJun 14 18:18
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090612142025637Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz"There's more than one entity with that or a similar name, but I suspect that this one may be the Stephen Norris Gulf Capital Partners. Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, listed as a senior advisor on the principals page is Robert Kasten, who is also a consultant for the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution"Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz"which you will recall attacked Linux -- here's the infamous "report" [PDF] -- albeit unsuccessfully. Not that AdTI ever admitted defeat, as you can see on this incredible AdTI page, where they call Open Source software "open sores software" and reference both Maureen O'Gara and Paul Murphy -- small world, isn't it?"Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz"The think tank report on Linux was reportedly funded at least indirectly, by Microsoft. Microsoft admits funding AdTI, but not specific projects. And it called the report unhelpful. Of course, there are coincidences in life of the three degrees variety. So, just saying. "Jun 14 18:18
schestowitzmaxstirner: yesterday I got an E-mail from the director of one of those 'experts'Jun 14 18:19
schestowitzHe didn't deny that Microsoft pays themJun 14 18:19
schestowitzThey slammed Google BTWJun 14 18:19
schestowitzBut he said they did not pay _much_ :-0)Jun 14 18:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 200 comments in an article from a fed up MSFT shareholder. http://ping.fm/LkxCKJun 14 18:20
maxstirnerI wouldn't be suprised if PR companies produce PR for money really ;)Jun 14 18:21
maxstirnereven university studies can be bought (cf pharma again)Jun 14 18:21
schestowitzMicrosoft to JavaOne Attendees: We Come in Peace < http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-development/microsoft-to-javaone-attendees-we-come-in-peace-004783.php > ="we come in peace" => Schmoozing tacticsJun 14 18:22
schestowitzmaxstirner: not can, areJun 14 18:22
schestowitzI spoke about it to some colleagues in academiaJun 14 18:22
schestowitzAstraZenaca funds some PhDs around hereJun 14 18:22
schestowitzTo prove what it needs to be 'proven'Jun 14 18:23
schestowitzMerck and MS just joined hands Jun 14 18:23
schestowitzAfter massive Merck collusion with ElsevierJun 14 18:23
maxstirner:D its standard business practice..Jun 14 18:23
maxstirnerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville_Institution  Washington, D.C.–based right-wing think tank that produces reports and policy research.Jun 14 18:23
maxstirnerThese detail how, after the Environmental Protection Agency moved in 1993 to have second-hand tobacco smoke declared a carcinogen, Philip Morris hired the AdTI to campaign against the moveJun 14 18:24
maxstirneraxis of evil :DJun 14 18:24
schestowitzMicrosoft Issues Jobs Threat To Obama Over Tax Plans < http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/Microsoft_Issues_Jobs_Threat_To_Obama_Over_Tax_Plans_xxxx37222.html > More Americans should be made aware of thisJun 14 18:24
maxstirnerAdTI is a member organization of the Cooler Heads Coalition which asserts that "the science of global warming is uncertain"Jun 14 18:24
maxstirnerhohohohoJun 14 18:24
schestowitzAnd now be shown PearlyG prtending that Americans are stupidJun 14 18:24
schestowitz*tears* "Our education is so bad... we'll die unless we give visas to people from developed countries like.... not the US"Jun 14 18:25
schestowitzIt's a miracle that Google find capable people in this 'stupid' education PearlyG whines aboutJun 14 18:25
maxstirnerhttp://www.chomsky.info/articles/199710--.htm <- cf What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream, Noam Chomsky essay about the public relations industry, marketing and the mainstream mediaJun 14 18:27
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schestowitzExclusive: Microsoft's Wacky New Ads to Pitch IE8 < http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2348416,00.asp > How miserable. Bundling was not enough for themJun 14 18:31
schestowitzmaxstirner: "There is another sector of the media, the elite media, sometimes called the agenda-setting media because they are the ones with the big resources, they set the framework in which everyone else operates. The New York Times and CBS, that kind of thing." Jun 14 18:32
schestowitzYes, there's that observation he repeats a lotJun 14 18:33
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schestowitzIf writer=!compliant(NYT), then sack();Jun 14 18:33
maxstirnertheres been a lot of downsizing in the print media in the last decade, with most people just copying of AP/reutersJun 14 18:33
_Hicham_sack(schestowitz);Jun 14 18:33
_Hicham_sacking successfulJun 14 18:34
maxstirnerthe MS ads have been v wacky latelyJun 14 18:34
*schestowitz gets out of the sackJun 14 18:35
maxstirnerthat bill gates ad with the shoes with that slimey tv person was so oddJun 14 18:35
schestowitzYeah, I like the death of 'mainstream' mediaJun 14 18:35
schestowitzThe problem is, MS starts AstroTurfing Jun 14 18:35
schestowitzIt tries to capture the new modes of interaction re ITJun 14 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft 'compensates' schools by 'allowing' them to buy more Microsoft http://ping.fm/jXIl2 Classic scamJun 14 18:35
maxstirnerwith the interweb there has been some sense of that, hence all the guerilla marketing efforst as you sayJun 14 18:35
maxstirnerbut online many-to-many communication is deeply elite in demographic terms, hence the continuing importance of tv-based propagandaJun 14 18:36
schestowitzThere are EU laws against thatJun 14 18:36
schestowitzThe US is still behind the curveJun 14 18:36
schestowitzThe FTC responded last weekJun 14 18:37
schestowitzIshJun 14 18:37
schestowitzBut the FTC is inherently corruptJun 14 18:37
schestowitzIt's like the SEC, it's a joke with an office in DC or whateverJun 14 18:37
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schestowitzSlimesoft.. Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTech Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTechJun 14 18:38
schestowitzmaxstirner: How Bill Gates caught the global health bug http://crosscut.com/2009/06/08/health-medicine/19043/Jun 14 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Shining Some Light on Microsoft's Nasty Moonlight Covenant: http://digg.com/d1tnXL?tJun 14 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz so where are the abusive astroturfers? it's a mystery, as Toyah would say.Jun 14 18:40
schestowitzBill Gates visits World Health Organization http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103Jun 14 18:40
schestowitzLobbying grandeurJun 14 18:40
schestowitzNext stop: WIPO?Jun 14 18:40
maxstirnermedia will be excluded from the meetingJun 14 18:41
maxstirnersecret agenda? :DJun 14 18:41
maxstirnerfixing the world with stolen billions. one step at a time. in secret.Jun 14 18:42
schestowitzmaxstirner: cry a river for poor little rich man... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009318238_apwagatesfoundationendowment.html <  Economic downturn hits world's richest foundation   >Jun 14 18:42
schestowitzSeatttle TimesJun 14 18:42
schestowitzYou whose agenda they setJun 14 18:42
schestowitzmaxstirner: no media?Jun 14 18:43
schestowitzDoes that say it?Jun 14 18:43
maxstirnerin the link you posted above yesJun 14 18:43
maxstirneri did see an article about the english rich list, elton john or something like that lost a thirdJun 14 18:43
maxstirnerhttp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103Jun 14 18:44
maxstirnerlast sentenceJun 14 18:44
schestowitzAPJun 14 18:44
maxstirneri dont really understand why that would beJun 14 18:44
schestowitzThanksJun 14 18:44
maxstirnernecessary?Jun 14 18:44
schestowitzIt's a good fit for my posy about MerckosoftJun 14 18:44
schestowitzThey kiss and hug nowJun 14 18:44
schestowitz Microsoft Hires New GM for U.S. Distribution and Services http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Hires-New-GM-for-U-S-Distribution-and-Services-113634.shtmlJun 14 18:45
maxstirneri think with bill g it is also the rockefeller syndrome, the richest are often the most hated, he's probably christian as well so they do start giving away a bit due to going to hell paranoiaJun 14 18:45
schestowitzCramer: Don't Panic in the Pause < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13889563&src=finance&ch=633473 >Jun 14 18:45
schestowitzDid you see Cramer getting busted for supposedly playing stocks using his show? (pumpin' them)Jun 14 18:46
maxstirnernopeJun 14 18:46
schestowitzWho, Gates?Jun 14 18:46
maxstirneryesJun 14 18:46
schestowitzNo, JewishJun 14 18:46
maxstirnerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#PhilanthropyJun 14 18:46
maxstirner"richest person in history"Jun 14 18:46
schestowitzNot that it mattersJun 14 18:47
maxstirnerhe may have a conscience either way ;)Jun 14 18:47
schestowitzProbably not practising either, so it's just a descent thingJun 14 18:47
schestowitzHe still have his familay aroundJun 14 18:47
maxstirnerwell living in a post-christian guilt-ridden societyJun 14 18:47
schestowitzit's a dynastyJun 14 18:47
schestowitzGates tooJun 14 18:47
schestowitzHis dad, wife, othersJun 14 18:47
schestowitzNow Jeff RaikesJun 14 18:47
schestowitzThey made his hand of the B&M FoundryJun 14 18:47
schestowitz*headJun 14 18:48
maxstirneri suppose gates was fairly self-made in comparison to rockefeller or gwbJun 14 18:48
schestowitz"John Davison Rockefeller (July 8, 1839 – May 23, 1937) was an American industrialist and philanthropist. Rockefeller revolutionized the petroleum industry and defined the structure of modern philanthropy. In 1870, he founded the Standard Oil Company and ran it until he officially retired in 1897"Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz"The owners of the country" ;-)Jun 14 18:48
schestowitzTo be fair, other countries have these tooJun 14 18:48
schestowitzCarlos Slim, people in places like Dubai (the prince)Jun 14 18:49
schestowitzNot sure where wealth is centralised in China...Jun 14 18:49
maxstirnercertainly.. the point being: note philant. defining factor in his biographyJun 14 18:49
schestowitzHaJun 14 18:49
schestowitzPR makeoverJun 14 18:49
schestowitzThey pay for that stuffJun 14 18:49
schestowitzTo people like  BermanJun 14 18:49
maxstirneryou dont want a legacy as richest oil billionaire everJun 14 18:49
schestowitzWho is an expert in fake charitiesJun 14 18:49
maxstirneri suppose.. i think its guilt as well, you seem to think its 100% marketing and tax evasionJun 14 18:50
schestowitzYes, but it's a systematic fatalityJun 14 18:52
schestowitzAnd the better solution is to fix the marketJun 14 18:52
schestowitzInc. regulatorsJun 14 18:52
schestowitzNot 10 years late (like the EU Commision)Jun 14 18:52
schestowitzAnd there should be jail timeJun 14 18:52
schestowitzJail is not there for shoplifersJun 14 18:52
schestowitzShite-collar criminals are the most harmful to societyJun 14 18:53
maxstirneri wouldnt depend on the EU commission to be or become overly democratic or pro-peopleJun 14 18:53
schestowitzIn many ways, shoplfting is upped by white collar crimeJun 14 18:53
maxstirnerjail is precisely for shoplifters, protection of property was always the most important function of the modern state ;)Jun 14 18:53
schestowitzAs in, "the rich steal from us, then we can nick this and that"Jun 14 18:53
schestowitzmaxstirner: so how do you punish those who profiteer with crime?Jun 14 18:54
schestowitzHouse arrest?Jun 14 18:54
schestowitzFines?Jun 14 18:54
schestowitzDeposition?Jun 14 18:54
maxstirnerof course there should be prison for thatJun 14 18:54
maxstirnerbut its illusionary reallyJun 14 18:54
maxstirnerin classical terms you lock up thieving povs, not greedy rich peopleJun 14 18:55
maxstirnerhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/20/peers-suspended-cash-for-amendmentsJun 14 18:56
maxstirnerits funny, he even bragged they do this sort of thing all the timeJun 14 18:56
_Hicham_what are u doing DaemonMDV?Jun 14 18:57
maxstirneri was just reminded by your post regarding botnets on smartmetersJun 14 18:57
maxstirnerhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5581547.eceJun 14 18:57
maxstirnerLord Truscott, the former energy minister, said he had helped to ensure the  Energy Bill was favourable to a client selling “smart” electricity meters.  Lord Taylor of Blackburn claimed he had changed the law to help his client  Experian, the credit check company.Jun 14 18:57
maxstirnerhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/smart_grid_security_risks/Jun 14 18:59
maxstirnerBuggy 'smart meters' open door to power-grid botnetJun 14 18:59
DaemonMDVyour motherJun 14 18:59
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 18:59
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : u said that u r gayJun 14 19:00
maxstirneroh dearJun 14 19:01
_Hicham_so u can only be doneJun 14 19:01
maxstirneroff topic?Jun 14 19:01
_Hicham_u can't do anythingJun 14 19:01
DaemonMDVjust slightly off topicJun 14 19:01
maxstirnerterribleJun 14 19:01
_Hicham_maxstirner : don't worry, it is usual in hereJun 14 19:01
maxstirnergreatJun 14 19:02
*maxstirner is not interested in the sexual preferences of random irc participantsJun 14 19:02
_Mutex_max it always amuses me what I see headlines like that, as if the smart meter whispers "Psst hay you, ive got this port open, come in and hack me" !!Jun 14 19:02
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : I don't think that u even have a dickJun 14 19:02
_Hicham_just a big assJun 14 19:02
_Mutex_as if someone is on thair computer and suddenly for no reason they have "access" to the power grid :)Jun 14 19:03
*DaemonMDV has pictures but that's really off topicJun 14 19:03
_Mutex_just by accidentJun 14 19:03
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : go see this http://free2g1c.com/Jun 14 19:06
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schestowitzmaxstirner: I'm backJun 14 19:09
schestowitzLet me catch upJun 14 19:09
_Hicham_schestowitz : have u been in the gym?Jun 14 19:10
maxstirneryou've missed the dick jokesJun 14 19:10
schestowitzNopeJun 14 19:11
schestowitzYeah, just caught up with thatJun 14 19:11
schestowitzDaemonMDV said he was doing someone's momJun 14 19:11
schestowitzThat's why trolls are no good hereJun 14 19:11
maxstirner:D is that how it startedJun 14 19:11
schestowitzThey muddy the waterJun 14 19:12
_Hicham_schestowitz : I can deal with that, don't worryJun 14 19:12
_Hicham_I always try to well behave with him, but he is like u knowJun 14 19:12
schestowitzIt's amazing how MS PR people always get the scoop on dead MS productsJun 14 19:12
schestowitzLike MS Money in this caseJun 14 19:13
schestowitzPR stuntsJun 14 19:13
schestowitzHow to cushion the blowJun 14 19:13
maxstirneri don't really get it, were they ever selling lots?Jun 14 19:13
maxstirneri've only ever seen quicken in operation for private finance, rest is SAP etcJun 14 19:14
_Hicham_Obama is accused of being Anti-Semitic, funnyJun 14 19:16
maxstirnerbecause they appear to be imposing restrictions on the israeli army massacring the palestinian population?Jun 14 19:17
_Hicham_yes, that is itJun 14 19:18
_Hicham_it is the right party people who says thatJun 14 19:18
_Hicham_they want no restrictionsJun 14 19:18
DaemonMDVthey should give the Israelis more ammoJun 14 19:19
schestowitzHow's this for mentality: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31214480/site/14081545?__source=yahoo|headline|quote|text|&par=yahoo Cramer says: “It’s not about friends. It’s about money. I’m going to take that up. We’ll do some compares to see how Microsoft did. May I make a point, though? He did not overpay for Yahoo!. He didn’t buy it.”Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz “It’s not about friends. It’s about money."Jun 14 19:19
schestowitzTo some people,money is a friendJun 14 19:19
DaemonMDVlet them take care of each otherJun 14 19:19
DaemonMDVlots cheaper for usJun 14 19:19
DaemonMDV:)Jun 14 19:19
_Hicham_DaemonMDV : we are coming to u!Jun 14 19:20
_Hicham_u gonna be fucked right in front of ur computerJun 14 19:20
DaemonMDVwhateverJun 14 19:20
maxstirnerso how many trollbots have we got on standby here?Jun 14 19:21
maxstirner:DJun 14 19:21
_Hicham_DaemonMDV is their headJun 14 19:21
_Hicham_pkill DaemonMDVJun 14 19:21
schestowitz-9Jun 14 19:21
maxstirner:DJun 14 19:22
maxstirneri was typing that actuallyJun 14 19:22
_Mutex_me ;)Jun 14 19:22
schestowitzAnyway.....Jun 14 19:22
_Hicham_schestowitz : Open Source World should get more money to counter MSJun 14 19:22
_Hicham_that is the only wayJun 14 19:22
_Hicham_money=powerJun 14 19:22
schestowitzchan addtroll(1);Jun 14 19:23
schestowitzOops. Forgot the slashJun 14 19:23
schestowitz_Hicham_: not reallyJun 14 19:23
schestowitzSome people do things for no payJun 14 19:24
schestowitzBut...Jun 14 19:24
_Hicham_I knowJun 14 19:24
schestowitzNot CramerJun 14 19:24
schestowitz “It’s not about friends. It’s about money."Jun 14 19:24
_Hicham_we need more full time Open Source devsJun 14 19:24
schestowitzHe talked about Bill  &SteveJun 14 19:24
_Hicham_full time devs are more productiveJun 14 19:24
_Mutex_I was going to say the same, its better to have more good quality devs, than few devs and lots of moneyJun 14 19:25
_Hicham_why not have both?Jun 14 19:25
_Mutex_money will come, and so will market share, as the code improves, as good as it is, its still got a long ways to go.Jun 14 19:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Korean Court Finds Microsoft Guilty in Anti-trust Case < http://ping.fm/1S11B >Jun 14 19:25
_Hicham_which code _Mutex_?Jun 14 19:25
_Mutex_GNU/Linux everything, the whole lotJun 14 19:26
_Hicham_the code is greatJun 14 19:26
_Hicham_even better than Windows in some casesJun 14 19:26
_Mutex_no the code is good, its far from great.Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_I knowJun 14 19:26
_Mutex_saying its great or "perfect" implies little or no further work is necessary, and thats far from the case.Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_nothing is perfectJun 14 19:27
_Mutex_Ubuntu alone has a massive and growing bugs list.Jun 14 19:27
_Hicham_due to their patchesJun 14 19:27
_Mutex_I know nothing its perfect, thats no reason to settle for average.Jun 14 19:27
_Hicham_their patches create most of the bugsJun 14 19:27
_Mutex_Its like saying its impossible to debug 11 millions lines of codeJun 14 19:27
_Mutex_why is it,Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_if it was impossible, it would be impossible to write it.Jun 14 19:28
_Hicham_it is not impossible, but needs timeJun 14 19:28
_Mutex_and he's right you cant debug 11 mil lines, but hunderds of people could all debug a few functions or bugs.Jun 14 19:28
_Hicham_that is why we created test unitsJun 14 19:29
_Mutex_yes, exactly, we've had 17 plus years at this, it should be getting to the stage where large chunks are bug free and stable and of high quality, it will get there,Jun 14 19:29
_Mutex_test units are a part or sub-section of quality assurance especially for software.Jun 14 19:30
_Mutex_take and sit through a few formal code reviews, and your coding will go from average to very good very quickly.Jun 14 19:30
_Mutex_when you have to explain every single line of code in your function to 4 or 5 very experienced programmer who will try to pick it to bits, you learn fast how to make great codeJun 14 19:31
_Mutex_the is easy to read, understand and most of all explain and simple englishJun 14 19:31
_Hicham_things will improve greatly when link time optimization will be implemented in gccJun 14 19:32
_Mutex_that combined with strict coding standards, (not just indentations), but structurally, goes a long way to making great code.Jun 14 19:32
_Mutex_Yes, it will, but you cant rely on optimisation C compilers to create good quality code, because it dont work that way.Jun 14 19:33
_Mutex_even with the best tools  you can still easy create rubbish.Jun 14 19:33
_Mutex_(i know)Jun 14 19:33
Omar87Okay people, I'm sincerely becoming a huge fan of Chris Pirillo..Jun 14 19:34
schestowitzMehJun 14 19:34
Omar87schestowitz: huh?Jun 14 19:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Watch this picture: http://ping.fm/KRSCAJun 14 19:35
schestowitzOmar87: Chris is a MS MVPJun 14 19:46
Omar87schestowitz: That's not so true.Jun 14 19:46
schestowitzMicrosoft gave him this 'title' not in vainJun 14 19:46
schestowitzHe serves themJun 14 19:46
schestowitzOmar87: no, it's trueJun 14 19:46
Omar87schestowitz: I believe he's neutral.Jun 14 19:47
schestowitzIt's a binary thingJun 14 19:47
schestowitzUnless they took it away from himJun 14 19:47
Omar87schestowitz: No it's not.Jun 14 19:47
Omar87schestowitz: Because he talks pretty good about GPL, open source and Linux.Jun 14 19:47
Omar87schestowitz: Especially when he talked about Tonido, the GPL'ed file/content sharing application.Jun 14 19:48
schestowitzForrester may be using biased populations to make fake surveys. http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/12/how-are-iphone-owners-different-forrester-counts-the-ways/?source=yahoo_quoteJun 14 19:48
schestowitzOmar87: that's how they pull peopleJun 14 19:48
Omar87schestowitz: Huh??Jun 14 19:48
schestowitzTo captivate people outside the choirJun 14 19:48
Omar87I don't understand.Jun 14 19:49
schestowitzIf he only spoke about MS, then he would speak to the choirJun 14 19:49
schestowitzBut by reaching out to others he can achieve moreJun 14 19:49
schestowitzNever mind.Jun 14 19:49
schestowitzHe supports MS crimes by action IMHOJun 14 19:49
schestowitzI argued with him about itJun 14 19:49
schestowitzHe's still in their pocketsJun 14 19:49
Omar87schestowitz: No offense, seriously, but I'm not gonna listen to you a lot anymore. :)Jun 14 19:49
Omar87Because this can't be considered anything more than paranoia, no offense again.Jun 14 19:50
schestowitzVMware Apologizes To Microsoft For Hyper-V Bashing  http://www.crn.com/software/217801019;jsessionid=2IVVTCJIZDWZIQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVNJun 14 19:50
DaemonMDVhttp://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hYS8CIYEBgudlm2SjLh0xekik0RwD98QK1182Jun 14 19:50
DaemonMDVStimulus Bill was bullshitJun 14 19:50
DaemonMDVBiden on the runJun 14 19:50
schestowitzOmar87: OKJun 14 19:50
DaemonMDV:PJun 14 19:50
Omar87schestowitz: Can you prove that he's an MS goon?Jun 14 19:51
schestowitzYesJun 14 19:51
Omar87Okay, go ahead.Jun 14 19:51
schestowitzFor example: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/22/antitrust-microsoft-apologist/Jun 14 19:53
schestowitzMicrosoft Browser Offer Fails to Impress Europe < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/technology/companies/13euro.html?ref=world > nationalist \press'Jun 14 19:55
schestowitzOmar87: mind you, I'm like friends with ChrisJun 14 19:56
schestowitzI speak with him sometimes, but I know where he's atJun 14 19:56
schestowitzMS made him what he is..Jun 14 19:56
Omar87schestowitz: You know him personally?Jun 14 19:56
schestowitzNot really. I mean, we sometimes excahnge messagesJun 14 19:56
schestowitzHe's not rude and  neither am IJun 14 19:57
schestowitzBut he seems to have no problems with MS' behaviourJun 14 19:57
schestowitzBecause he drinks their Kool-AidJun 14 19:57
schestowitzJust cause he doesn't like VIsta doesn't mean he's opposed to the corruptionJun 14 19:57
Omar87But is there any way anyone would become what he is without MS influence?Jun 14 19:57
schestowitzI don't care much about MS productsJun 14 19:57
schestowitzI care about how they attack LinuxJun 14 19:57
schestowitzand competition in general Jun 14 19:58
schestowitzAnd how they steal money from the publicJun 14 19:58
schestowitzLieJun 14 19:58
schestowitzWrite letter on behalf of dead peopleJun 14 19:58
schestowitzDo smear campaigns gainst peopleJun 14 19:58