IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 14th, 2009

*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@87.114.14.136.plusnet.thn-ag3.dyn.plus.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 14 00:00
DaemonMDV	trying out Skype	Jun 14 00:04
DaemonMDV	their Linux client is actually better than the Windows version	Jun 14 00:04
_Mutex_	considering the person who developed most of teh VOIP software was a Linux developer would explain why	Jun 14 00:05
_Mutex_	and a crazy smart guy too.	Jun 14 00:06
schestowitz	"Therefore, it is not surprising that cigarette smoking is one of the biggest risk factors for developing pancreatic cancer." http://pathology.jhu.edu/pancreas/BasicRisk.php	Jun 14 00:07
schestowitz	That's new to me..	Jun 14 00:07
schestowitz	So bill hicks dies from smoking directly?	Jun 14 00:07
_Mutex_	yes, have not heard of that one before , not surprising thought	Jun 14 00:08
maxstirner	possibly, its always hard/impossible to say with these things	Jun 14 00:08
maxstirner	i had heard of that link actually	Jun 14 00:08
ThistleWeb	the Windows Skype client has a lot more features, but it was built primarily for Windows, where most users are so it hardly surprises me	Jun 14 00:08
schestowitz	I guess we have more then one death from smoking in our family then	Jun 14 00:08
schestowitz	Thank bernays for "teaching women how to smoke"	Jun 14 00:09
maxstirner	sorry to hear.. do consider that its always about probabilities, i think it cannot be attributed purely to a single factor	Jun 14 00:09
schestowitz	yes, of course	Jun 14 00:09
maxstirner	apart from asbestos i guess ;)	Jun 14 00:09
_Mutex_	my old school budy Craig Southeren wrote most of the code for windows and Linux VOIP, its the same core, but he's a Linux guy not a MS guy.	Jun 14 00:09
schestowitz	Many things these day emit radiation too	Jun 14 00:09
_Mutex_	everything emits it to a degree, everything has a half life, graphits is one of the worst house hold items that radiat	Jun 14 00:10
_Mutex_	e	Jun 14 00:10
schestowitz	Yes, sure	Jun 14 00:10
schestowitz	But some things more than others	Jun 14 00:11
schestowitz	Those who live next to the hidden cellphone antennas suffer the most	Jun 14 00:11
schestowitz	JoinTheExperiment{Tm}	Jun 14 00:11
maxstirner	i picked up an interview with a woman who does preventive cancer science, theres only one department somewhere in california, she built her office without carcinogenics and she said its near impossible	Jun 14 00:11
schestowitz	A gym I used to go to had such an antenna intstalled in the roof	Jun 14 00:11
schestowitz	I no longer go there.	Jun 14 00:11
_Mutex_	for sure, you dont want to play inside a smoke detector or a radium watch face either	Jun 14 00:12
maxstirner	most plastics arent tested in any way, rather htey are just presumed safe until you get an asbestos-style cluster, too obvious to ignore	Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_	having had cancer (and an agressive one) I can attest to how bad it is.	Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_	Roy you may know of SCC ?	Jun 14 00:12
schestowitz	SCC?	Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_	squiema cell carcinoma ?	Jun 14 00:12
schestowitz	New to me..	Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_	ahh ok,	Jun 14 00:12
_Mutex_	form of skin cancer	Jun 14 00:13
_Mutex_	squamous	Jun 14 00:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Article:"Pirate Bay – Anti-piracy campaign?" http://bit.ly/yhb5x #tpb #piratebay		Jun 14 00:15
maxstirner	ok i'm off, all the best	Jun 14 00:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Human anatomy remains mystery to MPs http://notnews.today.com/?p=520		Jun 14 00:20
ThistleWeb	gotta love them copyright holders, demanding people respect their IP, while at the same time taking the TPB page design for their own site	Jun 14 00:25
ThistleWeb	they do know how to avoid the hypocrisy label	Jun 14 00:26
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_Goblin	the TPB was always free to use and abuse according to the site....	Jun 14 00:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] How to move from MS Money to GnuCash: http://is.gd/11akW and get proper double-entry into the bargain: http://is.gd/11amr		Jun 14 00:30
_Goblin	*logo	Jun 14 00:31
ThistleWeb	I notice the t-shirts page is a copy of TPB with stuff changed	Jun 14 00:31
ThistleWeb	page layout	Jun 14 00:31
ThistleWeb	they've done an HTTP copy, changed a few images to their own and used that	Jun 14 00:32
_Goblin	yeah, Mr Andersons campaign seems to be going down the route of Indiana Greggs and IMO it will end in tears because its badly thought ot.	Jun 14 00:32
ThistleWeb	we have been watching you for a long time now Mr Anderson	Jun 14 00:32
ThistleWeb	or should we call you Neo	Jun 14 00:32
_Goblin	Who would a f*** the pirate bay t-shirt appeal to?	Jun 14 00:33
_Goblin	I don't think a record label would want to associate...	Jun 14 00:33
_Goblin	look what happened to Metallica...	Jun 14 00:33
ThistleWeb	unfortunatly, all the people who are on their side and care bout stuff like that, wear suits	Jun 14 00:33
ThistleWeb	or have their own stage costumes	Jun 14 00:33
_Goblin	what interests me more about Mr Anderson is him claim about piracy = loss of jobs and kids taken out of schools....	Jun 14 00:34
_Goblin	that must mean he stands against FOSS aswell?	Jun 14 00:34
ThistleWeb	yeah I read that	Jun 14 00:34
_Goblin	because surely people choosing FOSS over proprietary would have the same effect?	Jun 14 00:34
_Goblin	Ive sent him an email, documented on my blog in the article.	Jun 14 00:35
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_Goblin	and also challenged him with using vulgarity to promote a cause.	Jun 14 00:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard nice cheeks		Jun 14 00:35
DaemonMDV	can GNUCash import Microsoft Money files?	Jun 14 00:35
ThistleWeb	to me, it's one of a number of astroturfing PR attempts by the entertainment industry to try and play the sympathy card, poor rich boardroom members who can't rape their customers to the same degree	Jun 14 00:36
_Mutex_	it would be if FOSS did not employ people, but it does	Jun 14 00:36
_Goblin	true, but not to the extent of proprietary	Jun 14 00:36
_Mutex_	thats true,	Jun 14 00:37
_Goblin	and if you consider the amount of business dependent on Windows failing, a FOSS alternative would be harmful to them too.	Jun 14 00:37
ThistleWeb	one response is the continued growth of CC as a licencing model	Jun 14 00:37
_Mutex_	CC ?	Jun 14 00:38
DaemonMDV	Creative Commons still has nothing good licensed under it	Jun 14 00:38
ThistleWeb	creative commons	Jun 14 00:38
_Mutex_	ahh ok,	Jun 14 00:38
DaemonMDV	or if it does it's a hook to get you to buy stuff	Jun 14 00:38
_Goblin	it does...	Jun 14 00:38
_Goblin	let me cite one example:	Jun 14 00:38
ThistleWeb	"good" is subjective	Jun 14 00:38
ThistleWeb	and personal	Jun 14 00:38
ThistleWeb	Mircosoft will tell you Windows is "good"	Jun 14 00:39
_Goblin	Severed Fifth and their album - Denied by Reign	Jun 14 00:39
ThistleWeb	to them, it is	Jun 14 00:39
_Mutex_	which makes evil just as subjective, and personal.	Jun 14 00:40
_Mutex_	whey do "they" say, "right and wrong only depends on what side your on"	Jun 14 00:41
_Mutex_	which is closely related to "the winning side gets to make up the rules", (just ask GW Bush). :)	Jun 14 00:43
ThistleWeb	evil has always been subjective	Jun 14 00:45
_Mutex_	sure has	Jun 14 00:45
ThistleWeb	people and companies have never been evil, although some of their acts are	Jun 14 00:45
_Mutex_	good and evil are in the eye of the beholder	Jun 14 00:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz "This is another fine mess you've gotten us into!"		Jun 14 00:45
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_Mutex_	there have certainly been people that MOST consider to be evil, but not that many, they were bad though	Jun 14 00:46
DaemonMDV	Windows is good from the sense that it's a common development platform	Jun 14 00:47
DaemonMDV	but that's just a side effect	Jun 14 00:47
_Mutex_	can some companies, like was it exxon who killed all those people on Bopal, or enron turning off power to make more money, IBM selling computers to the Nazi's to collate and count the jews is a bit iffy	Jun 14 00:47
DaemonMDV	that would be Union Carbide	Jun 14 00:48
DaemonMDV	now Dow Chemical	Jun 14 00:48
_Mutex_	yes, thanks :)	Jun 14 00:48
_Mutex_	ahh ok	Jun 14 00:48
DaemonMDV	IBM had a business branch in Germany dating back before the war	Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDV	the Nazis seized it	Jun 14 00:49
schestowitz	gn	Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDV	it was not really part of IBM	Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDV	at that point	Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDV	it was "Give us what we want or YOU get a bullet in the back of the head"	Jun 14 00:49
_Mutex_	they also had offices in the US for it, according to history, and provided consultants !	Jun 14 00:49
DaemonMDV	the Nazis seized the business, there's nothing that IBM in the US could do about that	Jun 14 00:50
DaemonMDV	it's not like they were profiteering off it	Jun 14 00:50
DaemonMDV	or willing accomplices	Jun 14 00:50
DaemonMDV	at the point that the Nazis seized it, it was no longer part of IBM	Jun 14 00:51
ThistleWeb	a lot of companies allied with the Nazis before they reaaly showed their true colours	Jun 14 00:52
ThistleWeb	at the start they capitvated a broken Germany with a new future	Jun 14 00:52
DaemonMDV	the Nazis were always going to be bad news, anyone that allied with them at any point knew what they would do	Jun 14 00:52
ThistleWeb	for a few years they were held up as a great thing	Jun 14 00:52
ThistleWeb	until the nasty underside started to show	Jun 14 00:52
ThistleWeb	businesses are only ever interested in profits	Jun 14 00:53
DaemonMDV	unfortunately businesses and governments shake hands with some nasty people	Jun 14 00:53
DaemonMDV	this British National Party sounds a lot like Norsefire	Jun 14 00:53
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 00:53
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsefire	Jun 14 00:54
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party	Jun 14 00:55
DaemonMDV	Wikipedia needs updated	Jun 14 00:56
DaemonMDV	two of the British Nazis are in fact elected to their Parliament now	Jun 14 00:56
ThistleWeb	even the term "british" in the BNP case is a bit of a stretch, they are an English party, standing in English constituencies, campaigning for English rule	Jun 14 00:57
DaemonMDV	so what the hell is their deal?	Jun 14 00:58
DaemonMDV	They criticize America over there cause of Bush, they rejoice that we throw his goons out	Jun 14 00:58
ThistleWeb	when you're a minority anyway, the least thing you want to do is paint yourself as an even smaller minority	Jun 14 00:58
_Mutex_	the pope was in the nazi youth group !	Jun 14 00:58
DaemonMDV	and immediately elect their own fascists?	Jun 14 00:59
_Mutex_	"The word has gotten out and a lot of people still alive are supplying information that they didn't have the context to understand before," said Robert Wolfe, an expert on Nazi records and former chief of captured German government documents for the U.S. National Archives.	Jun 14 00:59
_Mutex_	"This is the proof that IBM enabled the Holocaust. The connection to New York is now proven," Wolfe, a former U.S. infantry officer who ran de-Nazification programs during the U.S. occupation of postwar Germany, said in a phone interview.	Jun 14 00:59
ThistleWeb	lets' face it, the Church have a very revisionist veiw of the world	Jun 14 00:59
DaemonMDV	there's going to be another holocaust if the UK doesn't get their shit together	Jun 14 01:00
_Mutex_	yes they do.	Jun 14 01:00
ThistleWeb	as well as a very "let's stick our heads in the sand" pro-active approach to complaints like sexual abuse of kids by preists	Jun 14 01:00
ThistleWeb	I wonder if the biggest worldwide paedophile network is in fact the church	Jun 14 01:00
_Mutex_	yes, cant agree more	Jun 14 01:00
DaemonMDV	the priests have nothing to worry about	Jun 14 01:00
DaemonMDV	the church will buy off the parents to shut up about it	Jun 14 01:01
DaemonMDV	and move the priest someplace else	Jun 14 01:01
DaemonMDV	so he can molest more kids	Jun 14 01:01
ThistleWeb	or threaten them with ex-communicate thise who speak out	Jun 14 01:01
DaemonMDV	there's no brand of religion that I agree with	Jun 14 01:01
DaemonMDV	but there's no religion more insane than Islam or Christianity	Jun 14 01:02
DaemonMDV	they're both tied at first place on that count	Jun 14 01:02
ThistleWeb	with all of that, I always laugh when the Church try to lobby government on "morality" uissues	Jun 14 01:02
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DaemonMDV	the Christians always say the Satanists are murdering people in bizarre rituals, yet there are few documented cases of anything like that actually happening	Jun 14 01:03
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DaemonMDV	but the Christians can go murder as many as they want to	Jun 14 01:03
DaemonMDV	in broad daylight	Jun 14 01:03
DaemonMDV	and justify themselves	Jun 14 01:03
_Mutex_	its the Christians who started that with the inquisitions,	Jun 14 01:03
DaemonMDV	Christianity is the scourge of the Western civilization	Jun 14 01:04
DaemonMDV	Islam is the scourge of the East	Jun 14 01:04
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DaemonMDV	there's only like ~1 million Muslims in the US out of at least 305 million people	Jun 14 01:05
DaemonMDV	yet the Christians blame them for everything that goes wrong	Jun 14 01:05
ThistleWeb	every religion that says "there is no other God but me, and anyone who dont believe is to be killed or converted" is a problem	Jun 14 01:05
DaemonMDV	well, that sums up about 8 out of every 10 people you see	Jun 14 01:06
DaemonMDV	though I'm not sure that that many would actually kill for their religion if told to	Jun 14 01:06
DaemonMDV	maybe half the people you see?	Jun 14 01:06
ThistleWeb	people in India convert to Islam because the lower caste system in India has them as the dregs of society, and as Muslims they can at least get a better deal in ordinary life	Jun 14 01:06
DaemonMDV	yes	Jun 14 01:06
DaemonMDV	Islam spreads in US prisons	Jun 14 01:07
DaemonMDV	and in ghettos	Jun 14 01:07
ThistleWeb	Hindu's lose people because they like to discriminate with a caste system	Jun 14 01:07
DaemonMDV	it's always been a religion that appeals to hateful/spiteful people who feel oppressed	Jun 14 01:07
ThistleWeb	when people have nothing in this llife, where the world is against them, it's an easy sell to get them to do what you want in reward for an afterlife of pleasure	Jun 14 01:08
DaemonMDV	I've been approached by Christians, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Muslims, Scientologists, and Wiccans	Jun 14 01:08
ThistleWeb	thats why strong religious beliefs and poverty often go hand in hand	Jun 14 01:08
DaemonMDV	and I told all of them that they're full of shit	Jun 14 01:08
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 01:08
ThistleWeb	now you're bneing stalked by Tom Cruise right?	Jun 14 01:09
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 01:09
DaemonMDV	there was a woman from the Ft Wayne Church of Scientology that wanted to do that "personality test" on me	Jun 14 01:09
DaemonMDV	I know all about what they do	Jun 14 01:09
DaemonMDV	I'm forming my own church	Jun 14 01:10
DaemonMDV	the Church of Ryantology, it's all about me, and give me all your money bitches!	Jun 14 01:10
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 01:10
_Mutex_	what you have to do if find some gold tables with a language no one can understand, work out what it says, and base your religion on that, but dont forget to lose the gold tables first :)	Jun 14 01:11
ThistleWeb	I always find it funny when Preists offer advice on sexual relationships, considering they took a vow never to experience it	Jun 14 01:11
_Mutex_	some preists	Jun 14 01:12
_Mutex_	catholic	Jun 14 01:12
ThistleWeb	kids dont count huh?	Jun 14 01:12
_Mutex_	alter boys for the taking !!	Jun 14 01:12
ThistleWeb	"we have two different body's of Christ here, one for public ceremonies, one for private prayer meetings"	Jun 14 01:13
DaemonMDV	_Mutex_: I had the gold tablets with instructions for all humanity to make me their leader	Jun 14 01:30
DaemonMDV	but the archangel Gabriel ated it	Jun 14 01:30
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 01:30
_Mutex_	:D	Jun 14 01:30
_Mutex_	I think you need to form a chior !!	Jun 14 01:31
_Mutex_	mabey a tabinacle one	Jun 14 01:31
_Mutex_	Deamons Tabinacle chior	Jun 14 01:32
DaemonMDV	the one thing that Bill Gates said that disgusted me more than everything else put together	Jun 14 01:32
DaemonMDV	was when he said he agreed with prescription drug patents	Jun 14 01:32
DaemonMDV	software is one thing, human lives are another	Jun 14 01:33
DaemonMDV	and he said he thinks that drug companies should be able to charge $300-$400 a bottle for medicine	Jun 14 01:33
MinceR	Dagon Tabernacle Choir? :>	Jun 14 01:33
DaemonMDV	OwnerNBC Universal (27%)	Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDV	Fox Entertainment Group (27%)	Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDV	Providence Equity Partners (19%)	Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDV	The Walt Disney Company (27%)	Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDV	SloganAn evil plot to destroy the world. Enjoy.	Jun 14 01:34
DaemonMDV	fitting slogan	Jun 14 01:35
_Mutex_	ITs costs an incredable amount of money to develop, tests, trial, and have approved by the various bodies, mabey if they knew they would not make a return on that investment they would not bother	Jun 14 01:35
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulu	Jun 14 01:35
_Mutex_	refering to drugs, (the good kind, not the fun kind).	Jun 14 01:35
DaemonMDV	a bottle of AZT (Older AIDS drug) costs 27 cents to make	Jun 14 01:36
DaemonMDV	they want $227 a bottle	Jun 14 01:36
DaemonMDV	you're telling me they're justified?	Jun 14 01:36
DaemonMDV	it costs more to make the bottle than the pills	Jun 14 01:37
_Mutex_	but how much to develop, test, get FDA approval, double blind trial and so on, thats where the cost is.	Jun 14 01:37
_Mutex_	and if they cant recoup that expense they wont make it,	Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV	1. It's been out for 23 years	Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV	2. It's not even knew	Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV	it WAS a prototype for a failed cancer drug	Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV	from the 60s	Jun 14 01:37
DaemonMDV	*new	Jun 14 01:37
_Mutex_	23 years its past the patent time now, so its free for use.	Jun 14 01:38
DaemonMDV	yeah, this is still a problem	Jun 14 01:38
DaemonMDV	when the drug makers gang up to price fix	Jun 14 01:38
_Mutex_	patents protect the development for a period of time, to allow the manufacture to recoup and large expense, then it can be a generic	Jun 14 01:38
DaemonMDV	I don't think you follow me	Jun 14 01:39
DaemonMDV	the generic makers price fix	Jun 14 01:39
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_Mutex_	I think I do,	Jun 14 01:39
DaemonMDV	so there's still very little competition	Jun 14 01:39
_Mutex_	thats illegal, its called a cartell, and if you can prove that you can sue them,	Jun 14 01:39
DaemonMDV	those drugs cost less to make than a can of soda	Jun 14 01:39
_Mutex_	cost is in teh development and testing.	Jun 14 01:40
DaemonMDV	but they'll let people die before they give them away or charge a proper amount	Jun 14 01:40
_Mutex_	and approval	Jun 14 01:40
DaemonMDV	those have been recouped	Jun 14 01:40
_Mutex_	and liability for the few adverse affects	Jun 14 01:40
DaemonMDV	they have no excuse	Jun 14 01:40
DaemonMDV	it's only the manufacturing cost of 27 cents	Jun 14 01:40
_Mutex_	Do you how much its costs to develop a drug, and how many dont make it after all the expense ?? alot	Jun 14 01:41
DaemonMDV	they should be tried for criminal actions	Jun 14 01:41
ThistleWeb	drugs take a LONG time to develop, at great expense	Jun 14 01:41
splosion	the mono debate is really heating up now. I'm seeing people blogging on it left right and centre. anyone else following this?	Jun 14 01:41
_Mutex_	that would help the world,	Jun 14 01:41
DaemonMDV	the willfull murder of every person that died cause they couldn't afford the medicine	Jun 14 01:41
_Mutex_	years to come Splosion its might be refered to the great FOSS implosion !! (I hope not).	Jun 14 01:42
DaemonMDV	the drug companies are committing the greatest holocaust ever	Jun 14 01:42
splosion	hah	Jun 14 01:42
DaemonMDV	the worst crime agaisnt humanity	Jun 14 01:42
DaemonMDV	the CEOs of these companies should be charged with first degree murder	Jun 14 01:42
DaemonMDV	every time someone dies cause they didn't have access to medicine	Jun 14 01:42
_Mutex_	You might want to do some research on how AIDS was given to humans, when you find it out you will see that as a crime against humanity.	Jun 14 01:43
DaemonMDV	well, it got into the US from Haitians	Jun 14 01:43
DaemonMDV	in the mid 1950s	Jun 14 01:43
splosion	In the UK, you'd pay about ten dollars (well you'd pay it in pounds but yes) for a three-monthly subscription of AIDS drugs. It's a good system	Jun 14 01:43
_Mutex_	yes but how did it get onto the haitians do you know ?? (I do).	Jun 14 01:44
DaemonMDV	the first confirmed death post-mortem examination of a 15 year old who died in Missouri in 1959	Jun 14 01:44
Ng	splosion: that's largely because we have a fixed price for any prescription	Jun 14 01:44
_Mutex_	same in Aus	Jun 14 01:44
splosion	Ng: yeah. You'd pay the same for a cough remedy	Jun 14 01:44
Ng	the reality of course is that we are all paying for the rest of the cost of the drugs, but it's shared around via taxation :)	Jun 14 01:45
DaemonMDV	I really have to say that I hope anyone who defends those criminals gets heart disease or cancer	Jun 14 01:45
DaemonMDV	and loses their insurance	Jun 14 01:45
_Mutex_	yes, but how did the HIV virus get introducted to humans ?? (and i do know yes).	Jun 14 01:45
DaemonMDV	green monkey	Jun 14 01:46
DaemonMDV	African tribes having sec with green monkeys	Jun 14 01:46
DaemonMDV	*sex	Jun 14 01:46
_Mutex_	you dont wish those things on people, (well I dont) and ive had cancer, nearly killed me, so im glad for those drugs regardless of the cost,	Jun 14 01:47
_Mutex_	No not sex , sex is how it spread between humans its not how it got into the human population.	Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDV	I don't care	Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDV	anyone who defends those people deserves to suffer	Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDV	under the same heavy handed bullshit they defend	Jun 14 01:47
_Mutex_	thanks,, lets hope you dont get cancer,	Jun 14 01:47
DaemonMDV	if I do, I do	Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV	I never said that the people that deserve what they get, get it	Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV	that's what religion is for	Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV	to make you think these sons of bitches are going to be judged	Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 01:48
DaemonMDV	religion appeals to the part of us that knows what those people do is wrong	Jun 14 01:49
DaemonMDV	and that they'll never be punished in this life	Jun 14 01:49
_Mutex_	well im not going to argue with you at all about how cancer can be good for anyone and anytime, but each to their own.	Jun 14 01:50
DaemonMDV	it helps suppress the people that are being fucked over	Jun 14 01:50
DaemonMDV	cause they think their suffering will be reqarded	Jun 14 01:50
DaemonMDV	*rewarded	Jun 14 01:50
DaemonMDV	and that the drug company CEOs will burn in hell	Jun 14 01:50
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DaemonMDV	if only it was that simple	Jun 14 01:51
DaemonMDV	corporations spread Christianity because it helps them get away with crimes	Jun 14 01:51
DaemonMDV	governments spread Christianity cause it helps them get away with crimes	Jun 14 01:52
splosion	The Cubans used to buy some of their pharmaceuticals from a Canadian company. That company was bought out by an American one and then due to the embargo trade stopped. The Cubans decided to fabricate the drugs themselves. The American company complained to the US Government, who then went and bombed the factory (they said it was for heroin to justify it).	Jun 14 01:52
DaemonMDV	it's why atheistic totalitarian states usually fail at a higher rate	Jun 14 01:52
DaemonMDV	than religious totalitarian states	Jun 14 01:53
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DaemonMDV	the US government has a vested interest in keeping the Christians around	Jun 14 01:53
_Mutex_	ive never heard that USA has bombed cuba when ?	Jun 14 01:53
DaemonMDV	else people will become apathetic and "unpatriotic"	Jun 14 01:54
splosion	so you're saying that religion has been used to control people for a very long time? Really? I had no idea!	Jun 14 01:54
_Mutex_	LOL	Jun 14 01:54
DaemonMDV	yeah, thousands of years	Jun 14 01:54
DaemonMDV	it'll keep people enslaved for thousands more years after I am dead	Jun 14 01:55
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 01:55
splosion	_Mutex_: I can't remember the reference. But yes, they have done some covert stuff in Cuba before. I'll try and find the evidence some time. :)	Jun 14 01:55
_Mutex_	and when your looking down from heaven and laughing ??	Jun 14 01:55
_Mutex_	Was it clint eastwood ?	Jun 14 01:56
_Mutex_	heartbreak hill ?	Jun 14 01:56
Ng	_Mutex_: DaemonMDV wished cancer and heart disease on other people, what makes you think heaven is going to be his/her destination? ;)	Jun 14 01:56
DaemonMDV	there's no such thing	Jun 14 01:56
DaemonMDV	so fuck if I care	Jun 14 01:56
_Mutex_	well something starting with H im sure :)	Jun 14 01:56
_Mutex_	I really liked homers confession to the cathloc priest, "ive mastabated 2 billion times in my live and I have no intension of stoping"	Jun 14 01:57
_Mutex_	Homer Simpson that is	Jun 14 01:57
_Mutex_	not the philosphiser	Jun 14 01:58
_Mutex_	was "bay of pigs" cuba ?	Jun 14 01:58
ThistleWeb	_Mutex_: yes	Jun 14 01:58
_Mutex_	ok,	Jun 14 01:59
*DaemonMDV has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))		Jun 14 02:00
_Mutex_	see i know things, ... and stuff	Jun 14 02:00
ThistleWeb	Cuba was a vacation spot for the US elite (gangsters / politicians / actors / singers etc) to all hobnob together away from the public news scrutiny before Castro took over and took Cuba's interests back	Jun 14 02:00
neighborlee	as always, its what you do what it that counts	Jun 14 02:00
ThistleWeb	which was a large part of the reason it was suddenly sold as a pariah nation to the US people	Jun 14 02:01
_Mutex_	Neighborlee it SURE is, (and if only I could spel) :)	Jun 14 02:01
neighborlee	_Mutex_, not being able to spellis hardly a sinn	Jun 14 02:01
neighborlee	or sin if you'd rather	Jun 14 02:02
_Mutex_	LOL but did you get sent to the headmaster at school because you could not spell "GIRL" (or is it gerl)	Jun 14 02:02
neighborlee	are you sayng you did..< not here>	Jun 14 02:03
_Mutex_	yep,	Jun 14 02:03
neighborlee	lovely	Jun 14 02:03
neighborlee	strict-	Jun 14 02:03
_Mutex_	he just laughed,	Jun 14 02:04
neighborlee	So then you are acquainted with oppression ;0	Jun 14 02:04
_Mutex_	yes, I have many acquaintences	Jun 14 02:05
_Mutex_	10 years in the military was quite oppressing as well	Jun 14 02:11
_Mutex_	at least it taught me how to kill people it 20 different ways, (nothing like variety)	Jun 14 02:12
*kentma (n=user@host86-152-97-204.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 14 02:13
_Mutex_	so where is the hot spots for the mono debate ??	Jun 14 02:14
splosion	Linux Today	Jun 14 02:14
splosion	lots of stuff aggregated there	Jun 14 02:14
_Mutex_	ahhok, Carla's turf.	Jun 14 02:14
splosion	of course	Jun 14 02:16
splosion	Jo's defence of Mono sparked a lot of it off. But it's been brewing for a while now	Jun 14 02:16
splosion	it's going into debian main and stuff. people complaining, arguing, etc	Jun 14 02:18
_Mutex_	yes, its all very messy, I dont think it needs to be. but it is what it is I guess.	Jun 14 02:19
splosion	aye	Jun 14 02:19
neighborlee	http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2009061102135OSCY < it could change at anytime, but so far no takers	Jun 14 02:32
neighborlee	"" Write it up, plain text with simple HTML tags for paragraph and line breaks, and email it to me at cschroder@internet.com and I will publish it as soon as I receive it. ""	Jun 14 02:33
splosion	neighborlee: Jo Shields already responded to that. Carla posted it up	Jun 14 02:33
neighborlee	I think that a calm presentation of why Mono is desirable, why it is not a threat, and why it should be included in Ubuntu by default would be beneficial. < on this	Jun 14 02:33
neighborlee	splosion, odd its not linked there	Jun 14 02:34
neighborlee	ok just not updated	Jun 14 02:34
splosion	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-12-010-35-OS-CY-DV << here	Jun 14 02:34
neighborlee	yes	Jun 14 02:35
neighborlee	doesn't speakfor ubuntu..absurd	Jun 14 02:35
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat")		Jun 14 02:35
neighborlee	and such a shame.	Jun 14 02:35
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 02:35
*DaemonXP (n=Ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 14 02:37
DaemonXP	"Oh yes, but when the Ubuntu Beta train breaks down, the pirates don't EAT the tourists	Jun 14 02:38
DaemonXP	:P	Jun 14 02:38
neighborlee	I remember seeing him on debian ML posts..and rejected due to the RISK....	Jun 14 02:38
*DaemonXP is downloading a daily build of Karmic Koala :P		Jun 14 02:38
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neighborlee	freedom is a wonderful thing ;)	Jun 14 02:39
DaemonXP	daily builds can be evil, wicked things	Jun 14 02:39
DaemonXP	sometimes it's not even in an installable state	Jun 14 02:39
neighborlee	You see someone that is serious about debate, never incluces such sillyness such as , im well aware of threats and personal attacks yadda..absolute nonsense	Jun 14 02:40
_Mutex_	My major issue with this whole thing is that people in the free software community are (quite ignorantly) spreading FUD against Mono. The loudest of them come from the cult of Roy Schestowitz, who is single-handedly the largest generator of FUD I've seen in a long time.	Jun 14 02:41
neighborlee	thats not debate its deliberately trying to inflame	Jun 14 02:41
_Mutex_	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-06-11-021-35-OS-CY-0001	Jun 14 02:41
fewa	_Mutex_, go spread your hate somewhere else	Jun 14 02:41
_Mutex_	not my words please	Jun 14 02:41
_Mutex_	follow the link	Jun 14 02:41
neighborlee	_Mutex_, yes, it is hate	Jun 14 02:41
neighborlee	anytime you say 'ignorant' , and 'fud' , your not better than Jo, and you know it.	Jun 14 02:42
_Mutex_	yes it is, so im glad its not from me	Jun 14 02:42
neighborlee	_Mutex_, welcome to the underhanded nature of life..I hope you enjoy your stay ;)(	Jun 14 02:42
_Mutex_	except I did not say it, I posted that here to keep those here informed about that is being said about BN PLEASE	Jun 14 02:42
splosion	haha	Jun 14 02:42
DaemonXP	apaprently GRUB 2 is the default for Ubuntu 9.10	Jun 14 02:42
DaemonXP	that's the biggest thing that's landed so far	Jun 14 02:43
_Mutex_	all you can keep uninformed and live in ignorant bliss its up to you	Jun 14 02:43
splosion	I heard a few people were looking into making a C# implementation without Mono at all. Somehow get it working with gcc. That might be a good route to go down	Jun 14 02:43
fewa	DaemonXP, woah	Jun 14 02:43
fewa	really ?	Jun 14 02:43
DaemonXP	from what I can gather	Jun 14 02:43
fewa	link?	Jun 14 02:43
DaemonXP	Ubuntu development branch is fun	Jun 14 02:43
DaemonXP	sometimes you get new stuf to play with	Jun 14 02:44
splosion	grub 2? is it pretty? prettier than LILO?	Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXP	sometimes it's a borked system	Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXP	http://news.softpedia.com/news/GRUB-2-The-New-Boot-Loader-in-Ubuntu-9-10-113671.shtml	Jun 14 02:44
_Mutex_	its GPL you can do whatever you damn well like with it, according to the GPL, but as long as you moditiy if yyou to provide your mods, as per the GPL,	Jun 14 02:44
_Mutex_	Its YOUR freedom.	Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXP	when on the development branch, remember to use aptitude safe-upgrade for your package upgrades	Jun 14 02:44
DaemonXP	or else you might get broken dependencies	Jun 14 02:45
DaemonXP	:)	Jun 14 02:45
neighborlee	_Mutex_, the military huh ,,dont they teach honor and integrity ?<hmmm>	Jun 14 02:45
_Mutex_	No that just comes naturally :)	Jun 14 02:45
DaemonXP	safe-upgrade won't pull in anything that depends on something that's not in the repository yet	Jun 14 02:45
_Mutex_	not forgetting truth , justice and the Australian way.	Jun 14 02:45
_Mutex_	mate	Jun 14 02:45
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DaemonXP	internet censorship, ignorant rednecks, and John Howard	Jun 14 02:46
DaemonXP	what could possibly go wrong?	Jun 14 02:46
_Mutex_	we dont have rednecks here in Aus	Jun 14 02:46
_Mutex_	or Johnie as PM, we kicked him awile ago, fyi	Jun 14 02:47
fewa	that will be the first, even fedora wont do that	Jun 14 02:47
_Mutex_	or internet censorship (yet).	Jun 14 02:47
fewa	could be a step forward or a screwup	Jun 14 02:48
DaemonXP	how long is Ubuntu going to keep staying on Wine 1.01?	Jun 14 02:48
DaemonXP	shit	Jun 14 02:48
fewa	thats not ubuntu's goal	Jun 14 02:49
DaemonXP	yeah, you need to go grab it from Wine HQ	Jun 14 02:49
fewa	there is a easy repo	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	this bird's eye view thing in bing maps is really cool	Jun 14 02:50
fewa	wine 1.0 was a stable release	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	not as useful as google street thing	Jun 14 02:50
fewa	thats why people stay with it	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	but cool	Jun 14 02:50
DaemonXP	they're getting rid of HAL	Jun 14 02:50
DaemonXP	thank god	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	check out the imperial palace in tokyo if you're bored	Jun 14 02:50
fewa	link?	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	very nice	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	there's a link to it on the wikipedia article	Jun 14 02:50
_Mutex_	flight ticket ??	Jun 14 02:50
TLinton_	haha	Jun 14 02:50
DaemonXP	moving its responsibilities over to Device Kit and udev	Jun 14 02:51
DaemonXP	http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2	Jun 14 02:51
DaemonXP	well, if all this stuff goes well, they should have a pretty good system by release date	Jun 14 02:51
DaemonXP	I'm surprised that Fedora is hesitating with all this stuff	Jun 14 02:52
DaemonXP	they usually just throw it in and let whatever happens happen :P	Jun 14 02:52
TLinton_	wow, tokyo is HUGE	Jun 14 02:52
TLinton_	GYNORMOUS	Jun 14 02:52
DaemonXP	GNOME is ditching a bunch of horrible legacy crap	Jun 14 02:53
DaemonXP	which will be sorted out by 2.28	Jun 14 02:53
DaemonXP	one of those things is XulRunner	Jun 14 02:54
TLinton_	xul sucks	Jun 14 02:54
TLinton_	slowest thing ever conceived	Jun 14 02:54
DaemonXP	they want to make it to where distros can use Webkit to render their documentation	Jun 14 02:54
DaemonXP	and Epiphany will use Webkit natively	Jun 14 02:54
DaemonXP	yes	Jun 14 02:54
DaemonXP	Webkit will definitely help with resource use	Jun 14 02:54
DaemonXP	deprecating Bonobo to migrte to dbus	Jun 14 02:55
DaemonXP	I love how GNOME jsut makes all this changes span through a few releases	Jun 14 02:55
DaemonXP	so it's always under contruction but users never have to know	Jun 14 02:55
DaemonXP	KDE just goes years and years and dumpes a few years worth of progress on users in one gigantic chunk	Jun 14 02:56
fewa	DaemonXP, i still cant find the link, could you perhaps be referring to the closed COI notice board discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#hAl_Microsoft_Topic_Ban	Jun 14 02:56
fewa	??	Jun 14 02:56
DaemonXP	with none of it having been properly tested	Jun 14 02:56
DaemonXP	*dumps	Jun 14 02:56
DaemonXP	what about it?	Jun 14 02:57
splosion	When I used Sid, the latest greatest Gnome builds always seemed completely borked	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	a company paying people to asroturf Wikipedia?	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	thats new..... :P	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	hardly	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	you just said he was going to be banned	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	<DaemonXP> they're getting rid of HAL	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	no	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	Harware Abstraction Layer	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	ohhhhh Hardware	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	:P	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	...	Jun 14 02:57
splosion	hahahaha	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	lol	Jun 14 02:57
DaemonXP	*Hardware	Jun 14 02:57
fewa	ROFL	Jun 14 02:58
_Mutex_	anyone who trusts wiki, as being anything but someone opinion needs to learn how to study.	Jun 14 02:58
_Mutex_	and they need to know what wikepedia actually IS.	Jun 14 02:58
fewa	_Mutex_, that applies to all published text	Jun 14 02:58
fewa	_Mutex_, and all human opinion	Jun 14 02:58
DaemonXP	Wikis are like the damndest thing, because even though Wikipedia is typically full of shit	Jun 14 02:58
DaemonXP	Wikis let you throw together a documentation site easily	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	agreed	Jun 14 02:59
splosion	the true test of a geek. To laugh when someone mistakes hardware abstraction layer with a wikipedia user. I lolled. :)	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	we use docuwiki	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	it's wonderful for that, especially	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	more than mediawiki	Jun 14 02:59
_Mutex_	well most definitive texts, especially scientific texts undergo a "peer review" to ensure accuracy, thats the differece	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	no they don't	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	on wikipedia??	Jun 14 02:59
DaemonXP	I've been interested in a distribution called Foresight Linux for a while actually	Jun 14 02:59
fewa	_Mutex_, not to ensure accuracy	Jun 14 02:59
splosion	I can't wait for Wave to hit us. I can imagine Wavewikis being awesome.	Jun 14 02:59
DaemonXP	speaking of GNOME	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	oh, NOT on wikipedia	Jun 14 02:59
TLinton_	i get it	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	but it doesn't have a huge following	Jun 14 03:00
_Mutex_	no they dont on wikepedia yes,	Jun 14 03:00
fewa	_Mutex_, only plausibility	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	so things are sometimes not packaged	Jun 14 03:00
TLinton_	yep :)	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foresight_Linux	Jun 14 03:00
fewa	so whos getting rid of HAL	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	I tried it out on my older Athlon64 system	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	it's fairly fast	Jun 14 03:00
_Mutex_	no also for accuracy, otherwise you wont get "published".	Jun 14 03:00
fewa	and what are they replacing it with?	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	fewa: Ubuntu is	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	they say device kit and udev	Jun 14 03:00
DaemonXP	devicekit is from Fedora	Jun 14 03:01
DaemonXP	been in Fedora since F9 I believe	Jun 14 03:01
fewa	standardization is good	Jun 14 03:01
fewa	esp with hardware interfaces	Jun 14 03:01
DaemonXP	yeah, shedding the old stuff that never worked quite right	Jun 14 03:01
_Mutex_	wikipedia is "history by concensis	Jun 14 03:01
DaemonXP	replacing it with stuff that hopefully will	Jun 14 03:01
DaemonXP	modularity is king	Jun 14 03:01
DaemonXP	:)	Jun 14 03:01
fewa	_Mutex_, what journalstic sources are not that	Jun 14 03:02
DaemonXP	it's one of the things I really like about Linux is how much stuff can be reused	Jun 14 03:02
DaemonXP	rather than reimplemented separately in every program	Jun 14 03:02
DaemonXP	(Windows)	Jun 14 03:02
fewa	standards	Jun 14 03:02
fewa	amazing things	Jun 14 03:02
DaemonXP	less bugs, less bloat, less complicated	Jun 14 03:02
_Mutex_	Wiki is a psudo encyclopeida, and jurnal and "science" is highly and carefully peer reviewed.	Jun 14 03:03
fewa	you can run KDE window-manager on gnome, visa-versa	Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXP	if something doesn't work, they can get rid of it without scrapping the whole program	Jun 14 03:03
fewa	becuase of standards	Jun 14 03:03
neighborlee	Many of those who advertise themselves as anti-Mono are, quite frankly, frightening. Calling for the deaths of Microsoft employees (see comments on Boycott Novell) < was there ever a reply about who supposedly was doing this ?	Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXP	those types are probably FROM Novell	Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXP	posting that	Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXP	makes sense right?	Jun 14 03:03
fewa	yeah	Jun 14 03:03
DaemonXP	makes the place seem crazier?	Jun 14 03:03
fewa	trying to portray their oppisition as crazy by pretending to be them	Jun 14 03:04
neighborlee	imagine that	Jun 14 03:04
fewa	just like the linux shills, that say linux isnt ready	Jun 14 03:04
splosion	I reckon somebody probably made a bad analogy about killing somebody and the trolls jumped on it.	Jun 14 03:04
neighborlee	no doubt	Jun 14 03:04
DaemonXP	fewa: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha2	Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXP	documentation notes there	Jun 14 03:05
neighborlee	it just shows though what the other side atempts to do..talk about FUD ;)	Jun 14 03:05
_Mutex_	it was someone posting a comment, how is this site supposed to be responsible for that ? (a. Its not).	Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXP	sounds good in theory	Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXP	http://www.foresightlinux.org/	Jun 14 03:05
DaemonXP	they have a KDE edition somewhere I heard	Jun 14 03:05
neighborlee	Jo's 'article' was full of nonsense..lots of childish rants <poor me>..its clear by the many responses it was obvoius what he was up to	Jun 14 03:05
neighborlee	DaemonXP, I do like their package system though..fedora is going for something similar..if not exactly im not sure how its constructed	Jun 14 03:06
neighborlee	conary	Jun 14 03:06
neighborlee	or something	Jun 14 03:06
DaemonXP	Packagekit	Jun 14 03:06
DaemonXP	Kubuntu uses it	Jun 14 03:06
DaemonXP	Ubuntu still uses Synaptic though	Jun 14 03:06
neighborlee	no i mean what foresight was using	Jun 14 03:06
DaemonXP	?	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	yes packagekit..buggy	Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXP	oh the diff patches?	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	foresight>conary	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	yes	Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXP	yeah, Delta RPMs	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	what fedora is now doing..or planning	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	yes	Jun 14 03:07
splosion	the main Mono-proponents seem to be the developers in my opinion. Most comments you see from users are either against mono out of principle or they're apathetic "Oh I use tomboy sometimes but I don't see what the fuss is about"	Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXP	Conary patches are smaller and faster to apply though	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	splosion, agreed	Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXP	RPM just has so much baggage	Jun 14 03:07
neighborlee	splosion, jo as much as admits it LOL	Jun 14 03:07
DaemonXP	neighborlee: Shuttle's KPC uses Foresight	Jun 14 03:08
DaemonXP	thought about buying one	Jun 14 03:08
_Mutex_	mono is after all a development platform	Jun 14 03:08
TLinton_	what	Jun 14 03:08
TLinton_	crap	Jun 14 03:08
_Mutex_	if your not a developer its quite useless	Jun 14 03:08
TLinton_	what's so bad about mono?	Jun 14 03:08
_Mutex_	IMHO, nothing	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	i keep hearing about patents	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	but it's all theoretical as far as i can see	Jun 14 03:09
_Mutex_	Its just a blob of GPLv2 Code	Jun 14 03:09
DaemonXP	well, as long as they don't sue me	Jun 14 03:09
DaemonXP	I don't give a crap	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	not like java isn't patent encumbered anyway?	Jun 14 03:09
DaemonXP	it's not like you don't have options	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	it's not gplv3, is it?	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	java i mean	Jun 14 03:09
DaemonXP	if they kill off Mono then I'll use Rhythmbox instead of Banshee	Jun 14 03:09
TLinton_	it must be v2	Jun 14 03:09
_Mutex_	according to the GPL, (and RMS) its not patent encumbered. (its in the GPL)	Jun 14 03:10
TLinton_	ok	Jun 14 03:10
_Mutex_	yes it is, right along the Linux Kernel	Jun 14 03:10
splosion	The thing that makes me suspicious of mono is the patent indemnification itself. If Microsoft gave everybody, not just Novell, everybody, an unlimited, eternal covenant not to sue, I'd have ZERO problems with it.	Jun 14 03:10
TLinton_	ah	Jun 14 03:10
TLinton_	that was what i was asking the other day	Jun 14 03:10
neighborlee	TLinton_, you dont know about having to download mono from novel ? ;)< and only them>	Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_	the 'agreement' is only for novell customers	Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_	no, i understand that's the problem	Jun 14 03:11
neighborlee	well ok then	Jun 14 03:11
DaemonXP	hmmm	Jun 14 03:11
_Mutex_	I cant see how MS or Novell has any control over the code once they tack on the GPL, this is all about the GPL, which some seem to need a re-read of	Jun 14 03:11
DaemonXP	apparently GNOME is ditching HAL	Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_	i guess it discriminates against other distros	Jun 14 03:11
DaemonXP	hat's why Ubuntu is	Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_	which is dumb considering it's all free software	Jun 14 03:11
TLinton_	technically	Jun 14 03:11
_Mutex_	yes it is	Jun 14 03:11
DaemonXP	Complete migration from HAL to DeviceKit-* done. Fedora targets this for Fedora 11. No need for GNOME to track this too, trusting Red Hat here.	Jun 14 03:11
neighborlee	yup	Jun 14 03:12
DaemonXP	http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointTwentyseven/	Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_	ok, i get it	Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_	why won't microsoft issue a blanket assurance of indemnification then?	Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_	that would help mono get into all the distros	Jun 14 03:12
neighborlee	people have asked...no ecma in sight	Jun 14 03:12
TLinton_	and the whole boycott thing would be moot	Jun 14 03:12
DaemonXP	They plan to ditch Mozilla Xulrunner by July 27th	Jun 14 03:12
_Mutex_	as far as I can tell, by releasing it under the GPL, by the word of the GPL they have	Jun 14 03:12
DaemonXP	and transition to Webkit will be complete	Jun 14 03:13
TLinton_	_Mutex_:but i guess this website doesn't see it that way?	Jun 14 03:13
_Mutex_	I guess not,	Jun 14 03:13
TLinton_	i mean boycottnovell	Jun 14 03:13
neighborlee	they dont want to open it..but if linux uses it well its a rubber stamp of approval	Jun 14 03:13
TLinton_	it seems stupid to me at least	Jun 14 03:13
splosion	TLinton_: from an objective viewpoint, Microsoft have no reason not to extend their promise to everybody. Secretly I think it was designed to cause arguments	Jun 14 03:13
TLinton_	ok	Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_	but if their goal is to introduce their technology to the linux environments	Jun 14 03:14
splosion	but that's black helicopter stuff so I don't talk about it :)	Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_	then wouldn't it be easier to issue the blanket protection	Jun 14 03:14
splosion	yeah, you'd think	Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_	then everyone would use mono	Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_	crowds would go wild	Jun 14 03:14
TLinton_	and so on	Jun 14 03:15
splosion	well yeah	Jun 14 03:15
TLinton_	so it seems that the arguments are incompatible	Jun 14 03:15
_Mutex_	hang on, isnt the fight about it being incorporated into Ubuntu, last I checked they are not novell !!	Jun 14 03:15
TLinton_	one, mono is bad because it might be patent encumbered	Jun 14 03:15
TLinton_	two, microsoft wants everyone to use mono for nefrious purposes	Jun 14 03:16
TLinton_	*nefarious	Jun 14 03:16
splosion	Microsoft could play nice. Microsoft funded the Cleverage plugin that allows really good ODF compatability in Office. It's even hosted on sourceforge! It even has a BSD licence. They could put it into Office, but instead, their official SP2 is completely broken. Why? They already have the code they need to play nice. Why aren't they using it?	Jun 14 03:16
TLinton_	but they won't do something as simple as issue a blanket "we won't sue anyone" to get it into linux	Jun 14 03:16
TLinton_	i mean logically it makes no sense	Jun 14 03:17
splosion	nope	Jun 14 03:17
splosion	which leads to the obvious conclusion: they don't want to interoperate	Jun 14 03:17
splosion	they want to control their competitors	Jun 14 03:17
_Mutex_	Stallman added: "Mono will enable you to run your C# programs on the free GNU/Linux operating system using exclusively free software. With Mono, you will be able to use C# if you wish, without surrendering your freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that you use."	Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_	but they can't control gpl'ed code	Jun 14 03:18
neighborlee	splosion, same question for mono I guess ,,whoda thunk..bury odf with ooxml,,they have money..shareholders to satisfy..ive seen statement by them saying they have no plans to open .net...not that long ago...so yup you got it	Jun 14 03:18
splosion	which should be obvious. If Linux wins, microsoft loses. Microsoft cannot let that happen. They are in the business to make money for their shareholders, and the shareholders demand that they do	Jun 14 03:18
neighborlee	_Mutex_, we have gone over that before..people change.	Jun 14 03:18
neighborlee	_Mutex_, some people anyway..	Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_	microsoft has no control over redhat	Jun 14 03:18
_Mutex_	I particularly like the bit "freedom to study, share, change, and generally control all the software that y ou use".	Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_	anymore than redhat has control over centos	Jun 14 03:18
TLinton_	only their trademarks	Jun 14 03:19
_Mutex_	You think RMS has changed his opinion regarding mono ?	Jun 14 03:19
neighborlee	I know his stance on it	Jun 14 03:19
neighborlee	he said its 'dangerous' to make apps WITH IT	Jun 14 03:19
neighborlee	keep up	Jun 14 03:19
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 03:19
_Mutex_	did he ?? link please	Jun 14 03:19
neighborlee	yes he did	Jun 14 03:20
neighborlee	i'd have to look..i don thave it handy sorry	Jun 14 03:20
_Mutex_	http://www.gnu.org/press/2001-07-09-DotGNU-Mono.html	Jun 14 03:20
neighborlee	maybe roy does.im sure he prob. does..	Jun 14 03:20
_Mutex_	ive showed you mine :)	Jun 14 03:20
neighborlee	lol ;)	Jun 14 03:20
_Mutex_	I used to love that game :D	Jun 14 03:20
neighborlee	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/richard-stallman-on-mono/	Jun 14 03:21
neighborlee	top of page	Jun 14 03:21
neighborlee	note the date	Jun 14 03:21
neighborlee	http://fsfe.org/documents/rms-fs-2006-03-09.en.html#q1	Jun 14 03:22
_Mutex_	you left out the MAY be dangerous	Jun 14 03:22
neighborlee	no matter,,he said it	Jun 14 03:22
neighborlee	if he wasn't worried..he would not have said anything	Jun 14 03:22
neighborlee	mono is great says RMS>.please everyone use it..lets go!!<lemmings go nuts>	Jun 14 03:22
neighborlee	theoretically he said that of course..hey lemmings is a cute game though !	Jun 14 03:23
_Mutex_	He goes on to say (in teh same paragraph) "Mono is a free implementation of a language that users use. It's good to provide free implementations. We should have free implementations of every language."	Jun 14 03:23
neighborlee	changes nothing.	Jun 14 03:24
neighborlee	groklaw still applies..yadda	Jun 14 03:24
_Mutex_	but fills in the blanks and points more accuractly as to what RMS is trying to convey	Jun 14 03:24
neighborlee	fedora current stance..yadda	Jun 14 03:24
neighborlee	how much more do you need ;)	Jun 14 03:24
_Mutex_	I dont need anything more than RMS and the GPL the GPL is a license, Mono like the Linux kernel is one and the same, IMO	Jun 14 03:25
_Mutex_	Much much more that groklaw, pj after all INAL	Jun 14 03:25
_Mutex_	and is not the difinitive authority of teh GPL.	Jun 14 03:26
neighborlee	she may not be..maybe you want to refer to the lawyer that verified her suspicions ??	Jun 14 03:28
_Mutex_	LOL oh RMS great for the one liners "But fortunately, no Gods. Instead of Gods, we worship an editor. :	Jun 14 03:29
neighborlee	there/s a link for that too on the groklaw article if you didn't read it all o_0	Jun 14 03:29
neighborlee	_Mutex_, you crucify him when its convenient is that it ?	Jun 14 03:29
_Mutex_	I just thought it was amusing, no and crucify might be construded as a death threat LOL	Jun 14 03:30
neighborlee	oh and Jo is the paragon of virtue ..saying <poor me>about the antimono shills..their horrible death threat and language abuse...remember the f*** words he used not long ago on BN ?	Jun 14 03:30
_Mutex_	I would not know a Jo if i triped over one, so he virtuosity is of no concern to me. nor is some consulting lawyer for Groklaw, I would rather see the FSF law society comment on it.	Jun 14 03:31
_Mutex_	or someone who knows the GPL really really well, like mabey the guy who wrote it (whoever that was )	Jun 14 03:32
neighborlee	doesnt matter if you KNOW him..just that you concede his bitterness and language abuse	Jun 14 03:32
neighborlee	while playing poor me later to crucify others convictions ;)	Jun 14 03:32
_Mutex_	well if I dont know him I cant concede to anything that he has done, as i dont know him, that would be engaging in speculation.	Jun 14 03:33
_Mutex_	im not big on that	Jun 14 03:33
neighborlee	you can read the same articles I can	Jun 14 03:33
neighborlee	whew	Jun 14 03:33
_Mutex_	I know I can,	Jun 14 03:33
neighborlee	if you missed a few thats not a problem..we dont all have time I peruse the entirety of the internet I realize <dont I wish>	Jun 14 03:34
_Mutex_	I have that freedom or I can choose not too, and get my information from more accurate sources,	Jun 14 03:34
neighborlee	btw I respect militiary though I wish we could get BY without it	Jun 14 03:34
neighborlee	my father was medic in navy	Jun 14 03:34
neighborlee	so...	Jun 14 03:34
neighborlee	just an aside	Jun 14 03:34
neighborlee	a point of some..commonality..humanity..	Jun 14 03:35
_Mutex_	my dad drove a truck :)	Jun 14 03:36
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 03:36
neighborlee	payed the bills...we all do our part which makes things go round	Jun 14 03:36
splosion	my dad was a gravedigger. Well, only for a couple of years. But that's what it says on my birth certificate	Jun 14 03:37
neighborlee	very kewl	Jun 14 03:37
neighborlee	splosion, I mean somebody has to do it..what a nice thing to do I think..help put loved ones to rest...	Jun 14 03:38
splosion	shame I was never into the gothic scene. A gravedigger father, a room painted black with black curtains, oh it could have been awesome. \m/ fuck light \m/	Jun 14 03:38
neighborlee	Idont want to be buried..I cant be where I want to be < near mother and gparents> , so I think cremation..throw ashes or bury them near her then maybe ;0-	Jun 14 03:38
neighborlee	splosion, ROFL	Jun 14 03:39
neighborlee	you nailed that one ;))	Jun 14 03:39
_Mutex_	"If, pursuant to or in connection with a single transaction or arrangement, you convey, or propagate by procuring conveyance of, a covered work, and grant a patent license to some of the parties receiving the covered work authorizing them to use, propagate, modify or convey a specific copy of the covered work, then the patent license you grant is automatically extended to all recipients of the covered work and works based on it."	Jun 14 03:49
_Mutex_	seems clear to me !	Jun 14 03:50
fewa	_Mutex_, get a message from Microsoft's lawyers	Jun 14 04:00
_Mutex_	I know im stupid, but I dont understand what that means :)	Jun 14 04:01
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twitter	:)	Jun 14 04:08
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twitter	US torture lawyer faces lawsuit over his memos. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=avT0.R96jAFI	Jun 14 05:17
twitter	NYT write up is more informative http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/us/politics/14yoo.html?ref=global-home	Jun 14 05:19
_Mutex_	lets hope they upstream it to the entire bush administration	Jun 14 05:19
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yuhong	BTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening?	Jun 14 05:22
oiaohm	Lets just see what the EU does to MS windows.	Jun 14 05:23
_Mutex_	in reference to IE ?	Jun 14 05:24
yuhong	Yea, it is old and dates all the way back to IE4's desktop update.	Jun 14 05:24
_Mutex_	I actually dont think there is much more the EU can do, MS did what they asked and removed it, they just did not do what the EU really wanted that was get MS to promote competitores products.	Jun 14 05:25
_Mutex_	But they got what they asked for, leaving them powerless IMO on that issue.	Jun 14 05:25
oiaohm	Anti-trust courts of the EU are strange beasts.	Jun 14 05:25
oiaohm	Even that EU asked MS to unbundle they have not done it on every version of Windows going to be released.	Jun 14 05:26
_Mutex_	it seems they are more interested in boosting their coffers than actually doing anything good.	Jun 14 05:26
_Mutex_	no only w7 for the EU, as was the requirement	Jun 14 05:26
oiaohm	EU anti-trust also has a no repeat clause. Ie if a past action did not work a different action has to be enforced in future.	Jun 14 05:27
_Mutex_	they are not going to do more than they need to. and they wont be able to be forced to bundle other browsers, so they just remove IE from W7 for europe and their dont.	Jun 14 05:27
oiaohm	So unbundling has not worked they are legally bound to apply something different.	Jun 14 05:27
_Mutex_	No, they cant retrospectively do it,	Jun 14 05:28
oiaohm	EU anti-trust can block all imports into the EU.	Jun 14 05:28
oiaohm	Lets see how this plays out.	Jun 14 05:28
_Mutex_	IF there is legal grounds for them to do so, they cannot "just do it for no reason".	Jun 14 05:28
oiaohm	Either MS will do as anti-trust asked.	Jun 14 05:28
_Mutex_	They have	Jun 14 05:28
oiaohm	This time they asked for a selection on install.	Jun 14 05:29
oiaohm	MS answered with what they were asked to do last time.	Jun 14 05:29
oiaohm	The is EU anti-trust.	Jun 14 05:29
oiaohm	No repeats.	Jun 14 05:29
oiaohm	MS has answered incorrectly.	Jun 14 05:29
_Mutex_	they changed it because they did not like what happend, but MS will NOT bundle or provide a selection, its not even an End user issue, its an OEM issue.	Jun 14 05:30
_Mutex_	No customer in the EU will recieve W7 with a browser, unless they buy a shrink wrapped copy.	Jun 14 05:30
oiaohm	EU anti-trust whats browser selection put to end user.	Jun 14 05:30
oiaohm	whats/wants	Jun 14 05:30
oiaohm	That was there most recent ruling.	Jun 14 05:31
oiaohm	MS is trying to apply past ruling.	Jun 14 05:31
oiaohm	With EU anti-trust past ruling means nothing.	Jun 14 05:31
_Mutex_	yes i know, they has a ruling, MS complied, but it was not good enough so EU decide to raise the goal posts, im sure MS will tell them to go eat Sh1t	Jun 14 05:32
yuhong	BTW, on MS, Dell, and GNU/Linux, what do you think is happening?	Jun 14 05:32
_Mutex_	My local computer shop sells pcs with Windows and safari installed.	Jun 14 05:32
oiaohm	Anti-trust EU is allowed by law to move the goal posts as much as they like.	Jun 14 05:32
oiaohm	Dell will ship Linux as it profitable.	Jun 14 05:32
_Mutex_	whether it will work or not is debatable, and even the EU have to abide by the law	Jun 14 05:33
twitter	confusion, madness and revision in Windoze land http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633	Jun 14 05:33
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oiaohm	EU anti-trust laws allows anti-trust regulators extream powers _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:33
yuhong	I think MS first tried to kill it.	Jun 14 05:33
twitter	the author talks about XP in glowing terms, but it was viewed as a turd promoted by the ignorant at the time.	Jun 14 05:34
yuhong	Then they try to tax it.	Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_	how are you going to like it when the EU forces liability on FOSS for shoddy product ?	Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_	extreem powers within the law	Jun 14 05:34
yuhong	First by using Novell SUSE, then using codecs.	Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_	even the might EU is not allowed to break the law	Jun 14 05:34
oiaohm	Like companies in the past have obeyed the regulator and still been broken up because in the end anti-trust regulators decide that was for the good of the market _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:34
_Mutex_	EU has power in Europe, they have no power to break up a company that is not based in the EU.	Jun 14 05:35
twitter	adoption of XP was anything but "universal" - it took about 4 years to reach 50%.	Jun 14 05:35
_Mutex_	wow, an os to get to 50% in 4 years is quite an achievment !!	Jun 14 05:36
oiaohm	_Mutex_: funny enough. EU anti-trust regulator has the legal right to attack MS in USA courts.	Jun 14 05:36
_Mutex_	link please	Jun 14 05:36
_Mutex_	so why dont they ?	Jun 14 05:36
oiaohm	Because for them to do that MS has to fail to obey instructions.	Jun 14 05:37
_Mutex_	nuff said.	Jun 14 05:37
twitter	I have to laugh at the crazy talk of employees being given a stipend which they then use to purchase a computer. Is this how M$ will sneak Vista 7 into the corporate workplace?	Jun 14 05:37
oiaohm	Like when MS decided not to pay there EU fines.	Jun 14 05:37
oiaohm	EU frooze usa assets of MS's.	Jun 14 05:38
twitter	he repeats the Vista "image problem" lie.	Jun 14 05:38
oiaohm	EU anti-trust regulator truly does have teeth. Lets see how much they take out of MS this time.	Jun 14 05:38
_Mutex_	yes, let see.	Jun 14 05:39
twitter	Here's an incomplete list of Wintel magazine people reporting Vista problems at the time. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/192990	Jun 14 05:41
_Mutex_	http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-311100.html	Jun 14 05:42
oiaohm	In theory if MS does not do what they are told to the EU regulator it can fine MS to the complete value of the assets then take the company and break it up. That it a usa company does not block the EU from doing that _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:42
_Mutex_	I guess the EU is not allways bad	Jun 14 05:42
twitter	The words for such unusual agreement are, "consensus opinion"	Jun 14 05:43
_Mutex_	I actually doubt that very much	Jun 14 05:43
oiaohm	But that would require MS to be stupid.	Jun 14 05:43
oiaohm	And not obey order.	Jun 14 05:43
_Mutex_	Im sure the US government would just love seeing the EU come in a screw with US companies, I would bet my house the US gov would step on and stop that.	Jun 14 05:44
_Mutex_	Ok what if the EU decided to do that with Red Hat ?	Jun 14 05:44
twitter	The Wintel press was not alone in it's disappointment. I logged user, industry and business reactions in the Vista Failure Log. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/177855	Jun 14 05:44
oiaohm	There is a joint agreement between the USA and the EU so companies in each cannot do crimes in either and not pay fines _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:44
oiaohm	Now if MS does not want to come under EU anti-trust rules they simply don't ship product there.	Jun 14 05:45
twitter	With all of that to remind everyone, how can anyone be so bold faced about Vista as to say it was just misunderstood?	Jun 14 05:45
_Mutex_	paying fines and fining a company so much that is brings them down is 2 totally different things.	Jun 14 05:45
oiaohm	That is allowed by the agreement _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:45
oiaohm	Company does have one option to avoid over sized fines.	Jun 14 05:46
_Mutex_	mabey, but you know as well as I do its just aint gonna happen, (unless in someone dreams). lets be a BIT real here	Jun 14 05:46
oiaohm	Never ship into the other market every again.	Jun 14 05:46
oiaohm	So highly damaging either way.	Jun 14 05:46
_Mutex_	which is why it wont happen	Jun 14 05:47
twitter	Jason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic.	Jun 14 05:47
oiaohm	MS will have to obey the regulator sooner or latter _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:47
oiaohm	Legally there is no other outcome _Mutex_	Jun 14 05:47
oiaohm	Unless you call death of company a good outcome.	Jun 14 05:48
twitter	For some reason, he concludes his strange editorial with reference to Bill Gate's infamous 1976 Open Letter to Hobbiests. Think he's a BN reader?	Jun 14 05:48
_Mutex_	well they did, they unbundled IE, that should of been the end of it, any further EU actions are unwarranted, no company should cowtow to standover tackics by anyone. but its not going to happen, and if it does, youcan come see me and ill give you a million dollars,,, thats just how sure I am	Jun 14 05:48
twitter	Ick, he also references Ed Bott.	Jun 14 05:48
twitter	Ha, he's got 69 replies. Astroturf on top of fake news!	Jun 14 05:49
_Mutex_	The world of open-source development could be divided if the European Commission succeeds in passing a law extending consumer protection rules to software, according to experts.	Jun 14 05:50
oiaohm	_Mutex_: EU rules don't work that way. Has the damage of the illegal anti-trust actions been undone.	Jun 14 05:50
_Mutex_	so is that a good thing too because its from teh EU ?	Jun 14 05:50
oiaohm	If no regulator can keep on applying more restrictions.	Jun 14 05:51
_Mutex_	you say you know how the EU works ?? wow, I dont even think the EU knows that,	Jun 14 05:51
oiaohm	anti-trust rules in the EU are very old.	Jun 14 05:51
_Mutex_	as probably are extortion laws too.	Jun 14 05:52
oiaohm	They are based off the german model of anti-trust.	Jun 14 05:52
oiaohm	Not something you want to be on the wrong side of.	Jun 14 05:52
_Mutex_	the EU wont break up or destroy MS, its too good of a cash cow for them.	Jun 14 05:52
_Mutex_	Sorry, i hold no fear of the EU whatsoever	Jun 14 05:53
oiaohm	they have broken up other cash cows in the past.	Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_	who?	Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_	cash cows for the EU I mean.	Jun 14 05:53
oiaohm	One car company a complete bank and the list goes on.	Jun 14 05:53
_Mutex_	Link pls	Jun 14 05:54
oiaohm	This is over 100 years.	Jun 14 05:54
oiaohm	There will always been another person/company to become the next cash cow.	Jun 14 05:54
_Mutex_	im sure there is still reference to it somewhere, otherwise how do you know they did ?	Jun 14 05:54
oiaohm	I would have to dig up notes from sitting through a compare of the global anti-trust systems.	Jun 14 05:55
_Mutex_	making claims of doom and gloom without supporting proof, is little more than ,, "fear, uncertainty and doubt" IMHO. I tend to stick to the facts I find much more well true,, generally	Jun 14 05:56
_Mutex_	And if I dont have backup for a statement, I tend not to state it, for that reason.	Jun 14 05:56
twitter	A better history of events points to general disappointment with XP followed by the complete rejection of Vista. The Vista consensus opinion is rapidly becoming a Windows consensus opinion. Windows is never going to be fixed and should be avoided. Vista 7 will finish M$ off.	Jun 14 05:57
twitter	If M$ does not implode before release.	Jun 14 05:57
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_Mutex_	yes, i mean they have only sold 180 million copyies of vista, must be pretty crappy.	Jun 14 05:58
_Mutex_	sure, thats only 18 times what canonical states are the Ununtu install base (10 million).	Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_	if xp had been a disappointment then the same thing that happened with vista would have happened to it	Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_	no one would have upgraded	Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_	xp ran on the same hardware as windows 2000	Jun 14 05:59
TLinton_	once the dumb eye candy was removed	Jun 14 06:00
TLinton_	so i don't think it was a failure	Jun 14 06:00
_Mutex_	XP and win2k are very close structurally I belive	Jun 14 06:00
_Mutex_	not used much W2k	Jun 14 06:00
TLinton_	i guess	Jun 14 06:00
TLinton_	i didn't use 2000 much either	Jun 14 06:00
TLinton_	we went from nt4 to xp in 2002 i think	Jun 14 06:00
oiaohm	XP had buffer protections removed that was the major difference from windows 2000 internally.	Jun 14 06:01
TLinton_	but i remember it was plenty fast	Jun 14 06:01
TLinton_	on a pII 450 iirc	Jun 14 06:01
oiaohm	So XP was more unstable than 2000.	Jun 14 06:01
_Mutex_	im not sure but i think Xp was the last in the NT line, win2k was the next one and vista is something different again.	Jun 14 06:01
oiaohm	MS put the buffer protections back in Vista.	Jun 14 06:01
oiaohm	Vista is still a NT core.	Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_	is it, i found XP exceedingly stable, so W2k must be ok,	Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_	yes I think your right.	Jun 14 06:02
TLinton_	isn't vista server 2003?	Jun 14 06:02
oiaohm	Video and audio levels altered.	Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_	yes, in the kernel	Jun 14 06:02
TLinton_	right	Jun 14 06:02
TLinton_	the one thing i found annoying about xp was setting it up initially	Jun 14 06:02
oiaohm	Major headache in vista is so call protected path.	Jun 14 06:02
_Mutex_	never encounted it, what does it do ?	Jun 14 06:03
TLinton_	getting rid of the window gadgets and the search doggie	Jun 14 06:03
_Mutex_	ahh, i missed the search doggie, and clippie LOL	Jun 14 06:03
oiaohm	Ment to block drm play back from being caputured si what protected path does.	Jun 14 06:03
_Mutex_	I want them to bring clippy back,	Jun 14 06:03
_Mutex_	actually I hated that damn thing	Jun 14 06:04
yuhong	I don't think protected path is that of a major headache.	Jun 14 06:04
_Mutex_	what does it do ?	Jun 14 06:04
yuhong	It is only enabled with DRM content.	Jun 14 06:04
DaemonMDV	Windows 2000 and the original release of XP were not very different	Jun 14 06:04
yuhong	In fact, even protected processes are only a headache when you want to do debugging on them.	Jun 14 06:04
_Mutex_	oh DRM, ive never encounted DRM ever !!. (i guess i dont steal enough songs)	Jun 14 06:04
oiaohm	It effects the buffer handling in the video stack as well yuhong	Jun 14 06:05
yuhong	Yep, 2000 and XP were not that different.	Jun 14 06:05
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 14 06:05
oiaohm	The effects on the video stack effect everything.	Jun 14 06:05
yuhong	I don't think 7 will be the last release of Windows.	Jun 14 06:05
DaemonMDV	there was more difference between XP RTM and XP SP2 than between 2000 and XP RTM	Jun 14 06:05
yuhong	True, MS itself can't get rid of all the viruses in the Windows platform.	Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDV	XP SP2 held up Vista while they were frantically backporting stuff to XP	Jun 14 06:06
yuhong	Yep, XP SP2 was a security release.	Jun 14 06:06
yuhong	They added buffer overflow protection in VC 7.0.	Jun 14 06:06
_Mutex_	considering they are allready working on the next version of windows I would tend to agree	Jun 14 06:06
yuhong	They enabled it in Server 2003.	Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDV	it helped stop a lot of the stupid automated worms	Jun 14 06:06
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 14 06:06
DaemonMDV	but didn't do a whole lot for user-initiated malware	Jun 14 06:07
yuhong	This as well as many other security-related changes in Server 2003 was ported into XP SP2.	Jun 14 06:07
DaemonMDV	if Limewire was shut down I believe the number of spyware infections on Windows would be cut in half	Jun 14 06:07
DaemonMDV	almost instantly	Jun 14 06:07
DaemonMDV	err, Gnutella rather	Jun 14 06:07
yuhong	True, even ReactOS can't do much about them.	Jun 14 06:07
oiaohm	Reactos has not got to security system yet.	Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDV	ReactOS is actually not vulnerable to as many Windows viruses as you'd think	Jun 14 06:08
oiaohm	yep it lacks a lot of the secuirty flaws.	Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDV	they can probably achieve a good deal of compatibility without doing the obviously stupid shit that allows malware to run rampant	Jun 14 06:08
oiaohm	In the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws.	Jun 14 06:08
DaemonMDV	yes, and to achieve compatibility, they have to re-implement a lot of Windows bugs as well	Jun 14 06:09
yuhong	True, ReactOS is different code that doesn't have the same buffer overflows as windows.	Jun 14 06:09
oiaohm	Like bindly trusting that syscalls would be buffer safe because only ntdll would provide them.	Jun 14 06:09
DaemonMDV	which is why Linux, from a design standpoint, is better than ReactOS	Jun 14 06:09
oiaohm	How can you define nuts.	Jun 14 06:09
_Mutex_	virus'es and malware are actually a thing of the past with modern operating systems, after a minimum amount of effort, (like 5 minutes). and no cost	Jun 14 06:09
DaemonMDV	UNIX is just a specification, it never demands BINARY compatibility	Jun 14 06:09
yuhong	Yes a worm could be written for ReactOS, but it would be different from a Windows worm.	Jun 14 06:09
DaemonMDV	so Linux has more wiggle room	Jun 14 06:09
_Mutex_	and almost zero cpu overhead	Jun 14 06:10
yuhong	"In the development of Reactos they have found many windows design flaws."	Jun 14 06:10
yuhong	Can you give me an example?	Jun 14 06:10
DaemonMDV	well, actual viruses are almost extinct if you want to get technical	Jun 14 06:10
oiaohm	I already gave one	Jun 14 06:10
DaemonMDV	most malware anymore are actually trojan horses	Jun 14 06:10
oiaohm	think syscalls would be safe because they allways should come from ntdll.dll.	Jun 14 06:10
yuhong	Well, even Windows probe pointers before accessing them.	Jun 14 06:11
yuhong	And use SEH to protect them.	Jun 14 06:11
DaemonMDV	if you look at a typical antivirus pattern database	Jun 14 06:11
oiaohm	There are a lot of those problems in XP.	Jun 14 06:11
_Mutex_	my av software is locked solidly on 00% CPU time. and 360k ram	Jun 14 06:11
DaemonMDV	over 70% of what it detects will be trojans	Jun 14 06:11
DaemonMDV	only about 10% are technically viruses	Jun 14 06:11
oiaohm	SEH is also a windows weakness.	Jun 14 06:11
yuhong	Yep, MS addressed SEH overwrites with SafeSEH.	Jun 14 06:12
oiaohm	Due to windows design you do a operaiont you are not permitted to do you can catch it on a SEH.	Jun 14 06:12
oiaohm	So an attack can completely probe for weaknesses.	Jun 14 06:12
oiaohm	Where Linux application ends up dead.	Jun 14 06:12
oiaohm	Sometimes keeping programs running is the wrong thing.	Jun 14 06:12
DaemonMDV	if ReactOS implements a proper user/administrator separation	Jun 14 06:12
DaemonMDV	it will correct the biggest Windows flaw	Jun 14 06:13
yuhong	Well, you can do the same thing with signal handlers, but it is not as convinent.	Jun 14 06:13
_Mutex_	keep in mind that windows has exactly the same security rating as SOME versions of Linux, and higher than most distro's of linux	Jun 14 06:13
DaemonMDV	BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!	Jun 14 06:13
oiaohm	yuhong: linux MAC's you do something you are not approved you don't even get a single application is just dead.	Jun 14 06:13
DaemonMDV	that must be why there's a couple dozen viruses over the last 18 years for Linux	Jun 14 06:13
DaemonMDV	and 571,000 for Windows	Jun 14 06:14
oiaohm	single/signal	Jun 14 06:14
yuhong	Basically SafeSEH uses a SEH handler table generated by Visual C++ 7.1 and later.	Jun 14 06:14
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oiaohm	SafeSEH still allows probing.	Jun 14 06:14
oiaohm	Using SEH to prevent application death.	Jun 14 06:14
DaemonMDV	actually more than that, ClamAV deletes patterns of really old ones	Jun 14 06:14
yuhong	Windows Server 2003 and XP SP2 and later validate the SEH handler against this table.	Jun 14 06:14
DaemonMDV	so probably over 600,000	Jun 14 06:14
yuhong	Incorrect use of SEH led to the ANI vulerablity.	Jun 14 06:15
_Mutex_	that could also be that Windows is ubiqutious, and is a nice big target, but the fast there are nearly 600,000 viruses, and its still trivial to secure againt ALL of they says alot for Windows security.	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	wrong	Jun 14 06:15
_Mutex_	600,000 or 6 million, if they cant break into your maching they are pointless.	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	if Windows was secure and antivirus worked (it doesn't)	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	then viruses wouldn't get in, turn off your antivirus	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	turn off updates	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	turn off the firewall	Jun 14 06:15
DaemonMDV	and proceed to join their botnet	Jun 14 06:15
_Mutex_	Sorry,, but it acutally does work, its a trivial matter to secure windows, anyone can do it. even me.	Jun 14 06:16
oiaohm	LOL	Jun 14 06:16
DaemonMDV	antivirus is ineffective	Jun 14 06:16
DaemonMDV	and drains a lot of system resources	Jun 14 06:16
_Mutex_	my machines are on the net 24/7 and i never ever have a problem.	Jun 14 06:16
oiaohm	You mean install Linux I hope _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:16
yuhong	In fact, most virus damage can be limited by running not as admin.	Jun 14 06:16
yuhong	Not worms however.	Jun 14 06:16
_Mutex_	my av software is consuming 0% cpu and 360K KILOBYTES of ram.	Jun 14 06:16
oiaohm	Running as a guest user.	Jun 14 06:16
DaemonMDV	the very best ones "only" cut your disk access performance in half	Jun 14 06:16
_Mutex_	not really that much system resources there	Jun 14 06:16
oiaohm	I can can take control of a Windows machine.	Jun 14 06:17
oiaohm	Very small flaw.	Jun 14 06:17
oiaohm	Everyone can start something a system user level.	Jun 14 06:17
_Mutex_	so if I gave you my IP address you could hack into my PC ??	Jun 14 06:17
DaemonMDV	I don't care about your PC	Jun 14 06:17
oiaohm	When you are a limited user on Linux Mac anything other than windows.	Jun 14 06:17
_Mutex_	thas ok you didnt say you could break into it	Jun 14 06:18
oiaohm	You cannot run code as the highest user on the system.	Jun 14 06:18
DaemonMDV	I couldn't, but I'm not a Russian mafia type	Jun 14 06:18
DaemonMDV	they're the ones that make the worms that do this stuff	Jun 14 06:18
oiaohm	Network attack is not the kind of attack I am talking about _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:18
oiaohm	I am talking about giving you an application that will take control of your system.	Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV	yeah man, free porn	Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV	just double click this plug in	Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV	:D	Jun 14 06:19
DaemonMDV	here's your sign :P	Jun 14 06:19
_Mutex_	sorry I thought you said you can take control or a windows machine ?? what when your sitting in front of it ?	Jun 14 06:19
oiaohm	Only reason why it works from guest account in that the secuirty system of windows of swiss cheese.	Jun 14 06:19
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DaemonMDV	or then there's viruses that install themselves through holes in IE	Jun 14 06:19
oiaohm	MS has even annonce they are not even fixing it in Windows 7	Jun 14 06:20
DaemonMDV	god knows there's about enough leaks it springs	Jun 14 06:20
DaemonMDV	with ActiveX and .Net	Jun 14 06:20
oiaohm	The means to use rundll32 to start a service at system level.	Jun 14 06:20
oiaohm	So allowing the secuirty of the complete system to be overridden.	Jun 14 06:20
_Mutex_	and how do you access the maching to execute rundll32 ?	Jun 14 06:20
DaemonMDV	and now some of Internet Explorer's holes will affect Firefox too	Jun 14 06:20
oiaohm	Any flaw.	Jun 14 06:20
_Mutex_	its easy to say you can hack a pc "once your allready in". even I can do that.	Jun 14 06:21
DaemonMDV	when it's running on XP or Vista	Jun 14 06:21
oiaohm	Firefox internet explorer.	Jun 14 06:21
DaemonMDV	thanks to the .Net plugin Microsoft trojaned in	Jun 14 06:21
oiaohm	Under Linux these are limtied to 1 user.	Jun 14 06:21
oiaohm	dead.	Jun 14 06:21
oiaohm	Under windows system dead.	Jun 14 06:21
yuhong	I know.	Jun 14 06:21
_Mutex_	one linux user with root can do anything, and everything, once you have root its game over.	Jun 14 06:22
oiaohm	_Mutex_: I give you a guest account on Linux you have to find a true extra flaw to get deeper.	Jun 14 06:22
oiaohm	On windows once you are system user its all over _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:22
oiaohm	system is higher than administator.	Jun 14 06:22
_Mutex_	I am not the one who is claiming I can get into windows or linux, oiaohm that was your trick.	Jun 14 06:23
oiaohm	It can even delete windows from the harddrive while the machine is running.	Jun 14 06:23
oiaohm	I am talking about hardness to take over complete system _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:23
_Mutex_	yes, and how do you propose to get system rights ??	Jun 14 06:23
oiaohm	rundll32 start a service it give it to you _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:23
oiaohm	So just need something that gets me in the front door.	Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_	keep in mind Windows has the SAME security level as SOME linux's but MOST linuxes dont meet that standard.	Jun 14 06:24
oiaohm	Windows what secuiry.	Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_	EAL4 is what im refering to if you choose to google it and get the facts.	Jun 14 06:24
oiaohm	When every user can run rundll32 to give system user access.	Jun 14 06:24
DaemonMDV	Windows is made to run untrusted content from anonymous internet sites	Jun 14 06:24
oiaohm	NSA alteration is required to get EAL4 with windows.	Jun 14 06:24
_Mutex_	dont tell me, tell the people who evaluate system	Jun 14 06:25
_Mutex_	link pls, (as fud buster).	Jun 14 06:25
DaemonMDV	who are paid by whom?	Jun 14 06:25
oiaohm	Particularly replacement to the interfaces rundll32 talks to.	Jun 14 06:25
_Mutex_	ive heard that said several times, but ive yet to see the proof	Jun 14 06:25
oiaohm	So users cannot break outside there rights.	Jun 14 06:25
oiaohm	By the way lot of applications using rundll32 to lift a part to system rights to avoid triggering UAC.	Jun 14 06:26
oiaohm	So windows is running more and more and more as the equal to root.	Jun 14 06:26
oiaohm	So making it weaker.	Jun 14 06:26
_Mutex_	care to backup your 'facts;with you know proof ?	Jun 14 06:26
DaemonMDV	IE is designed to run untrustworthy content	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	like XAML apps	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	through Silverlight	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	though that's hardly the worst part of IE	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	it's so hard to pick a facorite	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	*favorite	Jun 14 06:27
DaemonMDV	between non-standard scripting languages to a plug in installer system that anyone can spoof	Jun 14 06:28
oiaohm	So you don't read znet so did not see the notice about the back door around UAC not being fixed using rundll32 _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:28
DaemonMDV	to passing dangerous ASF scripts to Windows Media Player?	Jun 14 06:28
DaemonMDV	that's always fun	Jun 14 06:28
_Mutex_	again, you care to confirm your sweeping statements with some proof please ?	Jun 14 06:28
oiaohm	Does very much more investagation to find that rundll32 allows a little more than it should _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:28
_Mutex_	otherwise I have to chalk it down to fud sorry	Jun 14 06:29
oiaohm	_Mutex_: the fault I am talking has been the news.	Jun 14 06:29
oiaohm	Have not even seen even a small bit of news about it.	Jun 14 06:29
_Mutex_	so how do you know then ?	Jun 14 06:29
DaemonMDV	http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878	Jun 14 06:30
DaemonMDV	“There are a number of significant vulnerabilities in technologies related to the IE domain/zone security model, trust in and access to the local file system (Local Machine Zone), the Dynamic HTML (DHTML) document object model (in particular, proprietary DHTML features), the HTML Help system, MIME type determination, the graphical user interface (GUI), and ActiveX. These technologies are implemented as operating system compone	Jun 14 06:30
DaemonMDV	are used by IE and many other programs to provide web browser functionality. These components are integrated into Windows to such an extent that vulnerabilities in IE frequently provide an attacker significant access to the operating system.”	Jun 14 06:30
oiaohm	Work with clamav pulling appart viruses _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:30
_Mutex_	im sure someone know about the EAL4 windows "patches' you spoke about oiaohm	Jun 14 06:30
DaemonMDV	the US government says IE is too insecure to use	Jun 14 06:30
_Mutex_	does anyone here know how to back up statements with facts ??	Jun 14 06:31
fewa	_Mutex_, Windows viruses can immediately go from user account code execution to Administrator-level whole-computer restructuring	Jun 14 06:31
DaemonMDV	I just did	Jun 14 06:31
_Mutex_	assuming they get into your computer in the first place, and again I would be very interested in seeing you know actual facts.	Jun 14 06:32
DaemonMDV	the US CERT said IE is insecure	Jun 14 06:32
DaemonMDV	and can't be secured	Jun 14 06:32
oiaohm	The holes I am talking about are basic security knowledge so I am just trying to work out how you don't here or know of them _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:32
DaemonMDV	that's good enough for me all by itself	Jun 14 06:32
oiaohm	EAL4: Methodically Designed, Tested, and Reviewed Does not require secuirty system to work.	Jun 14 06:33
DaemonMDV	they basically said IE is poorly designed, and deeply rooted into Windows, and therefore when a vulnerability is exploited, it usually gives the attacker way more access to Windows than it should	Jun 14 06:33
oiaohm	If your design has security system not working you can still pass EAL4	Jun 14 06:34
_Mutex_	IF they are so commonas you state, it would be trivial for you to show the proof to backup your statements, lets you be disregared as FUDing	Jun 14 06:34
DaemonMDV	they are common	Jun 14 06:34
DaemonMDV	IE 6 has over 160 documented security holes	Jun 14 06:34
DaemonMDV	IE 7 and 8 aren't doing much better considering how long they've been out	Jun 14 06:34
_Mutex_	IE 6 Hmm,, you know we're on 8 now right ??	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	yeah	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	which isn't doing better	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	it's only 2 months old and already has 8 holes	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	IE y has 88	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	*IE 7	Jun 14 06:35
_Mutex_	that link you posted was 2004 , hardly relevant in 2009	Jun 14 06:35
DaemonMDV	IE is too dangerous to use	Jun 14 06:35
_Mutex_	pulling ancient "facts" is not doing you any favors for you integrity.	Jun 14 06:36
oiaohm	http://rixstep.com/2/20090318,00.shtml << many viruses depend on the rundll32 means to lift rights including the recent Conficker	Jun 14 06:36
DaemonMDV	http://secunia.com/advisories/product/12366/	Jun 14 06:36
DaemonMDV	84 holes	Jun 14 06:37
oiaohm	Basically you have not been reading you virus reports _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDV	8 unpatched	Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDV	for IE 7	Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDV	according to Secunia	Jun 14 06:37
oiaohm	Its like a common door _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:37
DaemonMDV	IE 8 is too new to tell, but it's not lookin good	Jun 14 06:37
_Mutex_	I dont have too, as I dont have any problems whatsoever with viruses, havent for years, for me . like MOST computer users its a NON-Issue.	Jun 14 06:37
oiaohm	I want to write a virus yep code it to use rundll32 then I can I can do what ever I like to the system.	Jun 14 06:37
_Mutex_	its not I dont know, its just I dont care. Im secure, I defy you to break into my maching, and i have not seen a virus or malware or pop-up for years.	Jun 14 06:38
oiaohm	The door should be shut after 10 years of reports over the problem.	Jun 14 06:38
oiaohm	Or at least some form of control.	Jun 14 06:38
oiaohm	UAC does not even control usage of rundll32	Jun 14 06:38
yuhong	Well, on rundll32 and UAC, in an UAC prompt you can expand to see the command line.	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	Microsoft manager said UAC was a nag screen	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	there to annoy people	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	it's not a security tool	Jun 14 06:39
yuhong	Well, UAC is basically fundementally the same as sudo.	Jun 14 06:39
fewa	And microsoft programs can bypass it	Jun 14 06:39
fewa	and do	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	UAC is not	Jun 14 06:39
DaemonMDV	"At the 2008 RSA security conference, Microsoft's David Cross was quoted as saying, 'The reason we put UAC into the platform was 'to annoy users. I'm serious.' The logic behind this statement is that it should encourage application vendors to eliminate as many unnecessary privilege escalations as possible by causing users to complain about all the UAC 'Cancel or Allow' prompts. Of course, they probably didn't expect that Microso	Jun 14 06:40
DaemonMDV	instead get most of the complaints for training users to ignore meaningless security warnings."	Jun 14 06:40
fewa	making third-party programs second-class citizens	Jun 14 06:40
yuhong	Only that sudo has a timer so it nags people less.	Jun 14 06:40
DaemonMDV	sudo doesn't allow improper access to anything	Jun 14 06:40
oiaohm	sudo runs as a different user.	Jun 14 06:40
DaemonMDV	UAC does	Jun 14 06:40
oiaohm	policykit is being entered into Linux because sudo is a major secuirty problom.	Jun 14 06:41
oiaohm	So if UAC is sudo its still crappy tech.	Jun 14 06:41
_Mutex_	I like UAC, its just another layer and just forms (a small) part of overall security, its hitting the return key, Um is no big deal.. honest	Jun 14 06:41
_Mutex_	so is sudo crappy tech ?	Jun 14 06:41
DaemonMDV	UAC doesn't add any security	Jun 14 06:41
DaemonMDV	but if you like to click pointless pop ups	Jun 14 06:41
fewa	_Mutex_, obviously you have no care for well designed interfaces	Jun 14 06:41
DaemonMDV	good	Jun 14 06:41
oiaohm	sudo does not provide fine enough controls.	Jun 14 06:41
fewa	_Mutex_, and like snakeoil	Jun 14 06:42
_Mutex_	ok whatever. it does but I wont argue with you	Jun 14 06:42
fewa	_Mutex_, to be told you are safe	Jun 14 06:42
oiaohm	policykit provides lot finer controls over user.	Jun 14 06:42
_Mutex_	I dont have to be told i am safe, I KNOW I am.	Jun 14 06:42
DaemonMDV	http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2008/04/vistas-uac-security-prompt-was-designed-to-annoy-you.ars	Jun 14 06:42
yuhong	Maybe sudo is just as crappy, but I am mentioning this because not as many complain about sudo prompts.	Jun 14 06:42
fewa	policy kit along with MACs are very good	Jun 14 06:42
_Mutex_	not as many use sudo	Jun 14 06:42
yuhong	On the other hand sudo does have a timer, while UAC don't.	Jun 14 06:42
fewa	and Microsoft pretends UAC is original	Jun 14 06:43
oiaohm	UAC left out advnatage of policykit.	Jun 14 06:43
fewa	while it is a wholesome ripoff of age-old UNIX technology	Jun 14 06:43
oiaohm	The means to remember what applications are permitted to do what.	Jun 14 06:43
yuhong	Despite sudo requiring a password by default.	Jun 14 06:43
DaemonMDV	"Microsoft's approach to UAC is a carrot-and-stick way to get developers to adopt Microsoft's latest views on secure application installation and setup, but it does come at the expense of the user experience. It's hardly no surprise, then, that one of the most popular post-Vista install activities is disabling UAC. "	Jun 14 06:43
_Mutex_	I dont care if its original or not, gosh its just a tiny part of a much larger thing, and certainly not anything to bother waisting brain power thinking about.	Jun 14 06:43
fewa	IE snakeoil	Jun 14 06:43
_Mutex_	we least I dont	Jun 14 06:43
oiaohm	policykit is years ahead of sudo.	Jun 14 06:43
yuhong	If you can change group policy, UAC can be set to do the same prompting for password however.	Jun 14 06:43
DaemonMDV	doesn't help you if the malware bypasses the elevation in the first place	Jun 14 06:44
DaemonMDV	which a lot of it does	Jun 14 06:44
DaemonMDV	only legitimate apps trigger UAC	Jun 14 06:44
DaemonMDV	because only they play by the rules :)	Jun 14 06:44
fewa	UAC is fear-mongering and _Mutex_ knows it	Jun 14 06:44
DaemonMDV	UAC is like the honor system for malicious software	Jun 14 06:44
yuhong	How does malware bypass UAC?	Jun 14 06:45
oiaohm	rundll32 flaw need to be closed to remove elevation flaw. That effectively renders UAC and the rest of windows secuirty useless.	Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_	whats fear mongering ?	Jun 14 06:45
oiaohm	rundll32 yuhong	Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_	me saying im safe how will that instill fear in you ?	Jun 14 06:45
DaemonMDV	rundll32 runs a dll as an application	Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_	Are you scared because I have a secure system ?	Jun 14 06:45
oiaohm	Same with many other applications that want to do UAC operations.	Jun 14 06:45
_Mutex_	I find that amazing	Jun 14 06:45
oiaohm	And don't want to ask users.	Jun 14 06:45
yuhong	rundll32? I already said UAC lets you expand to see the command line.	Jun 14 06:45
DaemonMDV	lots of stuff can just bypass UAC, set up a rootkit	Jun 14 06:45
DaemonMDV	then make the user unaware anything even happened	Jun 14 06:46
DaemonMDV	as it turns their PC into a spam zombie	Jun 14 06:46
oiaohm	Do you see very rundll32 call from an application.	Jun 14 06:46
yuhong	The dll name rundll32 is trying to run will be in it's command line.	Jun 14 06:46
oiaohm	You don't yuhong	Jun 14 06:46
yuhong	What do you mean?	Jun 14 06:46
oiaohm	The trap is in the wrong place.	Jun 14 06:47
yuhong	Why?	Jun 14 06:47
oiaohm	If you run it from cmd UAC catchs it.	Jun 14 06:47
oiaohm	If you run rundll32 directly it don't.	Jun 14 06:47
DaemonMDV	it's easier to just trojan your stuff in piggybacking on legit-looking software	Jun 14 06:47
DaemonMDV	or preinfect the operating system disc image	Jun 14 06:47
DaemonMDV	and put it on a file sharing site	Jun 14 06:48
oiaohm	Simple fix really.	Jun 14 06:48
yuhong	What? CMD contains only the invoker for UAC.	Jun 14 06:48
oiaohm	Move the trap into the api rundll32 uses.	Jun 14 06:48
oiaohm	So not allowing application to ship with own version of rundll32.	Jun 14 06:48
_Mutex_	assuming anyone is stupid enough to download and run unknown software, and if you do so, you deserve everything you get for stupidity.	Jun 14 06:48
yuhong	Which is LoadLibrary.	Jun 14 06:48
oiaohm	Yep what would close door.	Jun 14 06:49
oiaohm	Fairly simple to close really.	Jun 14 06:49
oiaohm	Just wish MS would.	Jun 14 06:49
yuhong	And unfortunately LoadLibrary do not create a process so it is impossible to elevate there.	Jun 14 06:49
yuhong	The trap is actually in elevate.exe.	Jun 14 06:49
oiaohm	There are other calls rundll32 does.	Jun 14 06:49
yuhong	None of which create a process so that it would be impossible to put the trap there.	Jun 14 06:50
yuhong	ShellExecute just invokes the trap, which is actually in elevate.exe.	Jun 14 06:50
yuhong	Which is the one showing the UAC prompt.	Jun 14 06:51
_Mutex_	UAC for windll32 auto-elevation has been fixed	Jun 14 06:51
oiaohm	Next to see if they fix the browser plugin lift.	Jun 14 06:52
yuhong	CodeProject has a good, detailed description of the UAC elevation process.	Jun 14 06:52
oiaohm	There are a lot if little lift points that need fixing.	Jun 14 06:52
yuhong	http://www.codeproject.com/KB/vista-security/UAC__The_Definitive_Guide.aspx	Jun 14 06:53
oiaohm	If MS can get them all shut they will reduce virus threat by a massive ammount.	Jun 14 06:53
_Mutex_	im sure if we went far enough back in history we can find millions of security problems in all operating systems, im sure if you searched for DOS viruses you would find them, does not mean they are ANYTING today,	Jun 14 06:53
yuhong	If Linux don't compell MS to make Windows open source, ReactOS will eventually.	Jun 14 06:54
_Mutex_	I actually think after mono, MS will NEVER open source windows, and whats a reactOS, if its a windows clone explain how or why anyone would want to change ?	Jun 14 06:55
oiaohm	People said the same about solarias from sun. _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:56
yuhong	Because ReactOS is FOSS unlike Windows.	Jun 14 06:56
_Mutex_	in fact after mono I wonder how many groups will be thinking long and hard about opening up there stuff, lest FOSS decide they are not "one of us".	Jun 14 06:56
_Mutex_	yes, but what is it, a windows knockoff ?	Jun 14 06:57
oiaohm	Linux Unix knockoff forced solarias a UNIX open source _Mutex_	Jun 14 06:57
yuhong	Well, Mono was only a problem after the MS-Novell deal.	Jun 14 06:58
oiaohm	Mono is poor performance does not help its case to use it.	Jun 14 06:58
oiaohm	Its like VB of all.	Jun 14 06:58
_Mutex_	yes, thats right Linux based on UNIX caused UNIX to be open, not windows. oranges and bananas	Jun 14 06:58
yuhong	On OpenSolaris, I dug out this.	Jun 14 06:58
yuhong	http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/what_we_did	Jun 14 06:58
oiaohm	Put reactos were Linux is against windows.	Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_	and solaris still have a proprietary version	Jun 14 06:59
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 14 06:59
oiaohm	Really there is nothing closed in the proprietary version.	Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_	people will never change to something that is ONLY JUST AS GOOD, or not quite as good as they are allready using, its just how people are.	Jun 14 06:59
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 14 06:59
_Mutex_	its still proprietary	Jun 14 06:59
oiaohm	Linux does does not 100 percent tech beat solarias.	Jun 14 07:00
oiaohm	Yet it has broken most of solarias market.	Jun 14 07:00
oiaohm	Reactos to windows where Linux was compared to solarias was in 1993	Jun 14 07:01
_Mutex_	Im sorry "linux does does not 100 percent tech beat salarias" is confusing me. im not real bright :)	Jun 14 07:01
oiaohm	Container tech and internal debuging solarias still beats Linux cleanly _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:01
_Mutex_	so solaris is better than linux ?	Jun 14 07:02
oiaohm	For particular workloads.	Jun 14 07:02
_Mutex_	ahh ok	Jun 14 07:02
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oiaohm	If you have 100 percent tech beaten something there are no advantages left.	Jun 14 07:02
yuhong	Solaris is also better if you have to run old Unix apps that used STREAMS.	Jun 14 07:03
yuhong	Correct.	Jun 14 07:03
oiaohm	Less than a 100 percent tech beaten is a good enough beat.	Jun 14 07:03
yuhong	Since it is derived from SVR4.	Jun 14 07:03
oiaohm	Linux has beaten solarias by being good enough most of the time.	Jun 14 07:03
_Mutex_	except for the end user who will never downgrade or even sidegrade,	Jun 14 07:03
_Mutex_	its upgrade or nothing	Jun 14 07:03
oiaohm	Same is true in the solaris camp _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:04
oiaohm	You are talking less than 1 percent of the market is that true for _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:04
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yuhong	In fact, sockets was implemented on top of streams in opensolaris until recently.	Jun 14 07:04
_Mutex_	thats why I said any OS that wants to displace windows has to be better than windows by a large enough marging to make people willing to change for the extra features	Jun 14 07:05
oiaohm	No	Jun 14 07:05
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oiaohm	Apple and solarias have both be displaced by worse.	Jun 14 07:05
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oiaohm	Cost is a factor _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:05
_Mutex_	um, its just the way it is, its called human nature, and if you dont believe just look at Linux market penetration to date.	Jun 14 07:05
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_Mutex_	its a minimal factor.	Jun 14 07:05
oiaohm	If Linux crosses the good enough level against windows it can start major displacements.	Jun 14 07:05
oiaohm	Reactos can also start that.	Jun 14 07:06
oiaohm	Sooner or latter MS will be displaced it will not be by something that is completely better	Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_	what did i work out yesterday, WinXP cost me $1.57 per month amortized over the period of time I used it.	Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_	less than a beer or a cup of coffee per month.	Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_	In other words, nothing	Jun 14 07:06
_Mutex_	pocket change	Jun 14 07:06
oiaohm	How much did the hardware cost you over the same time.	Jun 14 07:07
yuhong	I think Linux should aim for when all the major OEMs offer it as an mainstream options, not just relegated to a niche area like Dell's Linux efforts are right now.	Jun 14 07:07
_Mutex_	im not going to (nor is anyone else) willing to downgrade or even change for the sake of $2bucks per month	Jun 14 07:07
_Mutex_	about the same	Jun 14 07:07
oiaohm	This is the point it is heading to the point for that 2 bucks per month you can have 2 machines.	Jun 14 07:07
yuhong	Of course not.	Jun 14 07:07
oiaohm	A long time ago software was about 10 percent of the cost of the machine.	Jun 14 07:08
oiaohm	Is now passing 50 percent.	Jun 14 07:08
_Mutex_	if you consider the various "components" of my PC, my RAM cost about $120, my HD about $120, my MD about $200, my OS about $120 and so on.	Jun 14 07:08
oiaohm	You will see arm based machines hardware around the 200 dollar mark.	Jun 14 07:09
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_Mutex_	so all those components amortised over their life span means each component is still less than $2 each.	Jun 14 07:09
_Mutex_	including CPU, monitor, keyboards and so on.	Jun 14 07:09
oiaohm	200 dollar total machine cost.	Jun 14 07:09
yuhong	Yep, MS was forced to offer discounts for netbooks and such.	Jun 14 07:09
_Mutex_	no read "EACH"	Jun 14 07:10
oiaohm	I am refering to arm hardware _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:10
oiaohm	Not the hardware you have.	Jun 14 07:10
oiaohm	Of course you leave out anti-virus and other software people buy.	Jun 14 07:11
_Mutex_	all im saying is, compared to all my system components, the OS (another system component) cost about same as any other single component, and based on that, there is no financial advantage gains in changing the OS component, unless its significantly better than what im presently using.	Jun 14 07:11
oiaohm	I would simply love a arm laptop just on the grounds of battery life. For that I would not care about having windows.	Jun 14 07:11
oiaohm	arm devices can truly do 10 hours under full load.	Jun 14 07:12
oiaohm	48 hours under general load.	Jun 14 07:12
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oiaohm	Where a person with a normal laptop would be lucky to get 8 under light load _Mutex_	Jun 14 07:13
mib_yh98j3	Mutex, your $2 a month is only a tiny bit of the real cost of Windows in our world... There's also the costs of our governments and schools paying Microsoft. The costs of spam spewing Windows machines and the costs of down time for the MANY quirky reasons that Windows stops working. But mostly the cost of true innovation being squelched by the fat, spoiled	Jun 14 07:13
mib_yh98j3	brat that likes to throw its weight around, and can only get friends if it buys them...then it stabs them in the back. Hmmph, $2 a month? I don't think so.	Jun 14 07:13
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mib_yh98j3	by the way, hi. Sorry to rant, but sometimes the things I read here make me peevish	Jun 14 07:14
_Mutex_	sorry I dont pay government or school fees, spam costs me nothing, i have zero downtime, my windows NEVER stops working, NEVER BSOD's, and I dont see an issue with innovation, at least its not based on a 40 year old OS, (I dont see that much innovation in doing something thats allready done).	Jun 14 07:16
oiaohm	_Mutex_: I guess you use MS Office as well.	Jun 14 07:16
oiaohm	And you did not include that in costs.	Jun 14 07:16
oiaohm	Lot of people over 50 percent of there machine cost is software.	Jun 14 07:17
_Mutex_	not much, I mainly use C compilers, and embedded development tools, both proprietary and foss	Jun 14 07:17
mib_yh98j3	So, Mutex, you're okay with it as long as it's everyone else paying the toll	Jun 14 07:17
_Mutex_	therefore I mostly use (FOSS) textpad for workprocessing, as it have highlighting	Jun 14 07:17
yuhong	My Windows PCs almost never BSoDs either.	Jun 14 07:17
oiaohm	My Linux machine does not crash either.	Jun 14 07:18
yuhong	They are pretty stable, and so is my Linux PCs.	Jun 14 07:18
_Mutex_	Um, its not my responsibility to dictate how others want to spend their money, and im quite sure its not yours either	Jun 14 07:18
oiaohm	Yet I don't lie and say no linux crash.	Jun 14 07:18
oiaohm	I know that mine is due to my hardware and my configuration.	Jun 14 07:18
yuhong	OpenOffice can run on top of Windows as well.	Jun 14 07:18
oiaohm	Is the reason my machine don't crash.	Jun 14 07:18
_Mutex_	no, ive used Linux and its crashed, but that was RH 7.2 and 10 years ago	Jun 14 07:19
mib_yh98j3	I'm not talking about your computers, I'm talking about costs worldwide, like the London Stock Exchange, hospitals	Jun 14 07:19
oiaohm	I know that people running pulseaudio and compiz at the moment cause crashes.	Jun 14 07:19
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_Mutex_	at teh same time win95 being the piece of crap it was, used to die all the time, and so did you NT4	Jun 14 07:19
mib_yh98j3	Military computer systems, etc. It costs ALL of us, and it needs to be addressed	Jun 14 07:19
_Mutex_	Or the FAA air traffic control system (oh wait thats linux).	Jun 14 07:20
yuhong	Yep, 9x was crap.	Jun 14 07:20
mib_yh98j3	The FAA wasn't brought down by a stupid virus	Jun 14 07:20
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_Mutex_	sure was, that was acutally the golden age of linux, and here's why, Win95 could not handle more than 512 meg of RAM so if you had a h igh end machine and wanted a decent memory handler you had to go Linux.	Jun 14 07:21
_Mutex_	Numerous breaches of the FAA system over the past years and POST the RH install and take over of the legacy system. Its quite an interesting article	Jun 14 07:22
_Mutex_	RH was happy braggin about the $15 million saved by Linux, but are surprisingly quite about this issue, (I wonder why).	Jun 14 07:23
yuhong	Or NT.	Jun 14 07:23
yuhong	Yep, even 98 had to set the max vcache size in order to work with 1 GB.	Jun 14 07:23
yuhong	NT never had this limit.	Jun 14 07:24
_Mutex_	yes, its was hopelless, and lots of people (including me) moved to linux.	Jun 14 07:24
mib_yh98j3	Mutex, because there is no "issue". For every Linux problem that's been long fixed, there are thousands of Windows problems that are sstill in the news	Jun 14 07:24
_Mutex_	and as I was working as a linux admin I had to know a bit about it, but its not hard, no os is.	Jun 14 07:24
_Mutex_	I like VMS the best, thats a nice ass OS.	Jun 14 07:25
yuhong	HIGHMEM had to be added in order for Linux to address more than 1GB.	Jun 14 07:25
_Mutex_	reminds me of the old DOSHIGH days !!	Jun 14 07:25
yuhong	In fact, even today GNU Mach still cannot address more than 1 GB.	Jun 14 07:25
yuhong	In fact, NT kernel was derived from VMS.	Jun 14 07:26
_Mutex_	well the key developer of VMS was the lead developer of NT, but there is little similarity between the two, (unfortunately).	Jun 14 07:26
yuhong	Yep.	Jun 14 07:27
_Mutex_	if it had the VMS versioning file system, and the "just connect em together" to create a cluster, the ability to boot off multiple and distributed HD's the list is endless	Jun 14 07:27
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_Mutex_	what SMP, buy a hub and a few PC and build yourself a cluster, nothing else required. just link em up and away you go.	Jun 14 07:28
yuhong	In the end, the developer of GNU Mach just decided to wait until it is ported to 64-bit.	Jun 14 07:28
_Mutex_	:) wow, thats a major copout :)	Jun 14 07:29
yuhong	Addressing more than 1 GB of memory will be much easier with 64-bit.	Jun 14 07:29
yuhong	PAE support was added, but only because of Xen.	Jun 14 07:29
_Mutex_	in theory it should not make any difference between 1 gig and 4 gig its still within 32 addresss space.	Jun 14 07:30
_Mutex_	but i know it does	Jun 14 07:30
yuhong	I suggested to use the recently added PAE support to add NX support to GNU Mach.	Jun 14 07:30
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yuhong	If they don't want to support more than 1 GB in GNU Mach.	Jun 14 07:31
yuhong	The NX bit is only accessible in PAE mode.	Jun 14 07:31
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yuhong	Even Windows had to enable PAE with physical addresses limited to 32-bit to enable NX support.	Jun 14 07:32
yuhong	http://www.mail-archive.com/bug-hurd@gnu.org/msg16749.html	Jun 14 07:34
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DaemonMDV	rhythmbox is the buggiest program ever	Jun 14 07:36
DaemonMDV	my minimize to tray plugin is just gone	Jun 14 07:36
fewa	DaemonMDV, meh i use it and it works	Jun 14 07:38
fewa	for me it only crashes when i hibernate and it loses its audio pipe	Jun 14 07:39
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DaemonMDV	Banshee 1.5 has a settings migrator that can import your Rhythmbox settings	Jun 14 07:59
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Omar871	Hello there?	Jun 14 08:30
Omar871	Guys, what is the easiest way to build animated web apps.?	Jun 14 08:31
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Omar871	By easiest, I also meant one that requires the shortest learning curve possible.	Jun 14 08:31
chips_b_malroy	Are you still up Roy?	Jun 14 08:32
chips_b_malroy	noticed you comment was why	Jun 14 08:32
chips_b_malroy	Roy, its good you did not give those Linsuks shills any bandwidth, as they have some kind of agenda, most likely paid shills from MS	Jun 14 08:33
schestowitz	Hey	Jun 14 08:34
schestowitz	What's up?	Jun 14 08:34
schestowitz	chips_b_malroy: they still get bandwidth	Jun 14 08:34
schestowitz	Some of them are still in IRC	Jun 14 08:34
Omar871	chips_b_malroy: They're not only shills, they yap around like kids too.	Jun 14 08:34
chips_b_malroy	not much, just my opinion. Roy I know you are against censorship. But my suggestion, and of course its only that. Is that bunch sounds just like the ones we fought with at MS Watch, goblin and I.	Jun 14 08:35
chips_b_malroy	I would say that BN trys to provide an forum for free thinking	Jun 14 08:36
chips_b_malroy	sadly, this does not always work. It only works when indivuals use the forum	Jun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroy	not when an evil company uses paid shills to attack it	Jun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroy	shillbombers, is what Marco called them on MS Watch	Jun 14 08:37
chips_b_malroy	they floode the site with their trolling posts and filth	Jun 14 08:38
chips_b_malroy	don't let them do that on your site, if you can prevent them	Jun 14 08:39
kentma	it's what they're paid to do. They're the internet equivalent of hired thugs to beat people up.	Jun 14 08:39
chips_b_malroy	while free speech is nice, yelling "fire" in a crowded threate has been proven crimal	Jun 14 08:39
kentma	they have no morals.	Jun 14 08:39
chips_b_malroy	true	Jun 14 08:39
kentma	A sort of internet mafioso	Jun 14 08:40
chips_b_malroy	a site therefore needs moderation or moderators, and rules	Jun 14 08:40
kentma	sadly, this behaviuor is extremely common	Jun 14 08:40
chips_b_malroy	No fllth, no threats, etc	Jun 14 08:40
kentma	chips_b_malroy: maybe... the problem is, though - should we allow the thugs and criminals to prevent ordinary people from having free speech?	Jun 14 08:40
_Mutex_	trouble is, thats what free speach is all about, being able to state your opinion, regardless of whether you like it or not.	Jun 14 08:40
kentma	_Mutex_: indeed so. some people abuse this privilege for financial gain, however.	Jun 14 08:41
chips_b_malroy	on this channel, prehaps boot those who run away with the discussion (shillbomber). Just for this IRC channel	Jun 14 08:41
_Mutex_	mabey so, but thats their constitutional right to do so.	Jun 14 08:41
kentma	_Mutex_: eh? where in magna carta is this mentioned?	Jun 14 08:42
_Mutex_	and not our position to judge or censor them for it...	Jun 14 08:42
kentma	I have a copy of magna carta on my wall, and I can't see that bit...	Jun 14 08:42
kentma	I can see bits about limiting the powers of monarchs...	Jun 14 08:42
_Mutex_	im sorry if your country does not have free speach, mine does :)	Jun 14 08:42
kentma	_Mutex_: err, mine has, but it doesn't have the US constitution, matey boy.	Jun 14 08:43
chips_b_malroy	This channel (IRC) is not the same thing as the comments on the site. This channel is to my thinking a group discussion of ideas to be presented to Roy in a helpful mannor.	Jun 14 08:43
kentma	_Mutex_: the US constitution applies to the US and nowhere else.	Jun 14 08:43
chips_b_malroy	So those who disrupt this IRC Mibbit channel, should be quickly booted and banned. But thats my thought.	Jun 14 08:44
kentma	_Mutex_: which means it applies to a very small proportion of the population of the planet, and in a specifically and internationally agreed geography, and not one inch further.	Jun 14 08:44
_Mutex_	most western countries have their own version of free speech laws	Jun 14 08:44
_Mutex_	but this being a US site, in the US there is free speech laws..	Jun 14 08:45
kentma	_Mutex_: indeed so, however, speak not of US constitutional rights applying anywhere other than where tehy apply!	Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_	i did not say "US" constitution	Jun 14 08:45
kentma	_Mutex_: this is an IRC channel, and your arrogance is p*ssing me off.	Jun 14 08:45
chips_b_malroy	No, its Roy's site, its a private site. And I know he wants to have it as free as possible. But all sites have some rules and someone who moderates. otherwise, the bad guys will run over you.	Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_	fair enough, your free to say that,	Jun 14 08:45
kentma	chips_b_malroy: exactly, it's Roy's site...	Jun 14 08:45
_Mutex_	not too many public web sites are private	Jun 14 08:46
kentma	_Mutex_: how very generous of you.	Jun 14 08:46
_Mutex_	why thankyou :)	Jun 14 08:46
chips_b_malroy	Yes, thats all I have to say Roy. That you do not need the troublemakers here on the IRC channel. let them post comments, if they must	Jun 14 08:46
schestowitz	What should we do then?	Jun 14 08:48
schestowitz	Deny entry?	Jun 14 08:48
schestowitz	We can't deny comments	Jun 14 08:48
schestowitz	We even allowed idiots like "a turn" whose comment is just "nigger"	Jun 14 08:48
schestowitz	Shane has always been against comment moderation	Jun 14 08:48
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chips_b_malroy	ban and boot, always have a moderator on the IRC channel to do that. Have rules posted on behavior in the IRC channel	Jun 14 08:48
schestowitz	Nope	Jun 14 08:49
schestowitz	Also, they can avoid breaking the rules	Jun 14 08:49
schestowitz	It's not so simple	Jun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroy	sort of like what they do on the linux user forums but not so much	Jun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroy	ok, maybe not then	Jun 14 08:49
chips_b_malroy	I can see where it would be a problem	Jun 14 08:50
schestowitz	I guess the point that I make it that they know how to keep malicious presence	Jun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroy	but look at it as another attack	Jun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroy	like the ddos one	Jun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroy	MS is most likely behind this one	Jun 14 08:50
chips_b_malroy	you are getting to them, which is a good thing	Jun 14 08:51
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maxstirner1	weird	Jun 14 08:51
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chips_b_malroy	they are not going give up, the battle only changes, the trolls will be back with new names	Jun 14 08:52
oiaohm	Most of the trolls don't have arguments that stand up to inspection.	Jun 14 08:52
chips_b_malroy	I fought them in my little small way at MS Watch, you fight the big fight for all of us	Jun 14 08:52
schestowitz	Is Apple Watch alive?	Jun 14 08:53
schestowitz	I mean, I think Ziffy Davy employed him for that too	Jun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroy	Oiahm, what arguments did Linsux have that they said?	Jun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroy	Apple Watch is dead last I seen	Jun 14 08:53
chips_b_malroy	I read the logs	Jun 14 08:54
chips_b_malroy	here	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	I see that in the past week we average about 7000 unique IPs/day	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	*ged	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	So a lot of people get exposed to the stories, not the same people	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	This can't be good to any of the companies covered	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	Ubuntu also took a blog for attritude re: Mono	Jun 14 08:54
_Mutex_	or lots of the same people with dynamic IP	Jun 14 08:54
schestowitz	yes	Jun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroy	so they fight u, same playbook as in MS Watch	Jun 14 08:55
schestowitz	I know	Jun 14 08:55
schestowitz	But you can't track it	Jun 14 08:55
schestowitz	If people may consider other distros, then Ubuntu will look closer at Mono decisions	Jun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroy	they cannot beat you logic and thinking, so they turn to	Jun 14 08:55
_Mutex_	its actually probably a fairly small value	Jun 14 08:55
chips_b_malroy	evil	Jun 14 08:55
schestowitz	Browsers used by visits	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz	Different browsers listed 10	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz	Netscape/Mozilla 22155 (49.2%)	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz		Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz	Unknown 10342 (23.0%)	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz		Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz	Explorer 8518 (18.9%)	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz		Jun 14 08:56
_Mutex_	gotta love that logic and thinking	Jun 14 08:56
_Mutex_	interesting :)	Jun 14 08:56
schestowitz	[From the past few days]	Jun 14 08:56
oiaohm	chips_b_malroy: linsux admin is a normal USA insane person. Thinking that freedom of speech allows everything and have lack of understanding what condone means.	Jun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroy	How is Mono in the Debian and Ubuntu repo's? When they will not put the files in it to decript DVd's, play WMA (win32codecs) etc, because its non-free or scared to be sued. What is the difference with this and mono/moonlight?	Jun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroy	its only good for suse	Jun 14 08:57
chips_b_malroy	as in not a legal problem	Jun 14 08:57
_Mutex_	the difference is Mono is GPL	Jun 14 08:58
chips_b_malroy	It has a GPL licence maybe, but that was a major mistake on someones part	Jun 14 08:58
oiaohm	Better question is why does not debian enable anti-aliasing in freetype using apples patented code.	Jun 14 08:58
_Mutex_	that would be richard stallman then	Jun 14 08:59
_Mutex_	he approved it	Jun 14 08:59
chips_b_malroy	you way off tract Oiahm	Jun 14 08:59
oiaohm	mp3 play back is also gpl2 like mono _Mutex_	Jun 14 08:59
oiaohm	Not really.	Jun 14 08:59
_Mutex_	then with that there is no problem either, GPL provies the necessary protection	Jun 14 08:59
chips_b_malroy	try to stay on topic	Jun 14 08:59
oiaohm	GPLv2 does not provide iron for sure patent protection.	Jun 14 09:00
chips_b_malroy	GPL is just a licence	Jun 14 09:00
_Mutex_	according to the GPL is does,	Jun 14 09:00
oiaohm	GPLv3	Jun 14 09:00
_Mutex_	and 2	Jun 14 09:00
chips_b_malroy	it does not correct the underlying patents and licences that mono depends on. Its an legal question	Jun 14 09:00
oiaohm	No GPLv2 wording suggest maybe it might.	Jun 14 09:00
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oiaohm	GPLv3 there is no question about it _Mutex_	Jun 14 09:01
chips_b_malroy	like mp3, wma (win32codecs) and dvd playblack, mono is no differnet	Jun 14 09:01
_Mutex_	dont tell me i have to pull up the GPL again and post the relevant section here so you can see for yourself	Jun 14 09:01
oiaohm	Pull them and I will rip gplv2 to bits.	Jun 14 09:01
_Mutex_	ok	Jun 14 09:01
oiaohm	There are section in it that are not confirmed.	Jun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroy	it might protect the user, but not the distro that speads mono in their repo's	Jun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroy	Ubuntu can be sued	Jun 14 09:02
_Mutex_	whats not confirmed from the GPLv2 ?	Jun 14 09:02
chips_b_malroy	when the time is right for MS	Jun 14 09:02
oiaohm	That person building program gets any right to use patent. _Mutex_	Jun 14 09:03
oiaohm	That is not written into GPLv2	Jun 14 09:03
_Mutex_	? sorry what ?	Jun 14 09:03
oiaohm	It is written into GPLv3	Jun 14 09:03
chips_b_malroy	they, Ubuntu put it in the repo, and on their disks already installed. And Ubuntu is a target, as they now make a commercial server version, or plan to.	Jun 14 09:04
oiaohm	Just because you have the source and are allowed to build the application. Does not mean you have the right to use anything made using patented tech.	Jun 14 09:04
chips_b_malroy	exactly	Jun 14 09:04
oiaohm	GPLv3 include particular clause that you must grant those rights.	Jun 14 09:04
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chips_b_malroy	u can relicence anything to another licence, but that does not make it legal	Jun 14 09:05
chips_b_malroy	that will be decided in a court of law	Jun 14 09:05
oiaohm	Just like one guy going to release RCU code under LGPL from Linux kernel.	Jun 14 09:06
oiaohm	Had to be reminded even that it was his code it s IBM patent.	Jun 14 09:06
chips_b_malroy	we are far far better without mono and moonlight in GNU Linux	Jun 14 09:06
oiaohm	and IBM has only approved usage of that patent under GPL not LGPL.	Jun 14 09:06
oiaohm	Patents are a bugger.	Jun 14 09:07
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chips_b_malroy	the reason that MS is more of a legal firm than a software one	Jun 14 09:07
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oiaohm	GPLv3 requires code providers to provide patents as required for people to use the program.	Jun 14 09:08
chips_b_malroy	Bill learned from his Daddy	Jun 14 09:08
oiaohm	MS really hates GPLv3 it threatens to undermine there patent game.	Jun 14 09:09
chips_b_malroy	u have to fight Mono/moonlight on the patents issue	Jun 14 09:09
oiaohm	Most people point to Linux and say its the same as mono both are gplv2 but Linux developers are reminded quite often who's patent effects what section of code.	Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroy	it needs to be treated as a lawsuite issue, just like dvd, mp3, and wma playblack, a seperate repo in an overseas country not affected. That way u win	Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroy	nobody will install the malware that way	Jun 14 09:10
oiaohm	Big issue with Mono is MS is not really that forth coming on what is patented.	Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroy	mono that is	Jun 14 09:10
chips_b_malroy	if MS wanted us to have it, they would say so, and make it 100% no doubt legal, which they have not done. It fact they sued Tom Tom for Fat32.	Jun 14 09:12
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oiaohm	Other thing that was strange before MS sued Tomtom was using mono internally.	Jun 14 09:12
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chips_b_malroy	its only legal for Suse. And only for 5 years from when their hidden agreement was signed	Jun 14 09:12
oiaohm	Now tomtom is converting to C++	Jun 14 09:12
oiaohm	I keep on forgeting when that agreement goes by by.	Jun 14 09:13
chips_b_malroy	guessing another 3 years	Jun 14 09:13
oiaohm	28 March 2007 It has to be before then.	Jun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroy	While Debian has Mono in their repo's, i cannot understand why? They think they cannot be sued because they are non-profit?? They are wrong.	Jun 14 09:15
oiaohm	So a little under 3 years.	Jun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroy	MS will go after them	Jun 14 09:15
chips_b_malroy	Most likely the time that MS will sue many	Jun 14 09:15
oiaohm	2012	Jun 14 09:15
_Mutex__	RMS does not seem to think so,	Jun 14 09:16
chips_b_malroy	MS be in big trouble by 2012	Jun 14 09:16
_Mutex__	that they can be suid	Jun 14 09:16
_Mutex__	what h appens in 1212 ?	Jun 14 09:16
oiaohm	By 2012 MS could be completely despreate _Mutex__	Jun 14 09:16
_Mutex__	how come ?	Jun 14 09:16
oiaohm	Bit like SCO was a few years back.	Jun 14 09:16
chips_b_malroy	At some point when things get worse for the Borg, expect them to sue their users, you know the pirates	Jun 14 09:17
oiaohm	A fit company does not start killing departments _Mutex__	Jun 14 09:17
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chips_b_malroy	not if they really a long term company still making billions of profits, which is what they say	Jun 14 09:18
_Mutex__	every smart company will kill departments if they are not profitable, thats normal business, even in FOSS.	Jun 14 09:19
oiaohm	Normally not kill. Most companies that are doing well restruct not kill.	Jun 14 09:19
oiaohm	Ie end one department start a new to go into another field.	Jun 14 09:20
_Mutex__	its the ones that resist change that die, ask chrisler or GM	Jun 14 09:20
oiaohm	MS currently has just been killing departments.	Jun 14 09:20
oiaohm	With no replacements.	Jun 14 09:20
oiaohm	That is not a sign of a company going well.	Jun 14 09:20
_Mutex__	yes, lots of companies do that all the time, especially when times are a bit hard, (sort of like NOW).	Jun 14 09:21
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oiaohm	What hit them _Mutex__	Jun 14 09:21
_Mutex__	what hit MS ?	Jun 14 09:21
DaemonMDV	oiaohm: You must have been right about Firefox hitting a bunch of Linux kernel bugs	Jun 14 09:21
oiaohm	MS has been dumping product to take back netbook and block markets to convert.	Jun 14 09:21
chips_b_malroy	They will move most of their operations to India soon, and maintain the corporate headquarters in USA as long as possible, in order to maintain the illusion that they are an American company.	Jun 14 09:21
DaemonMDV	I just switched from Linux 2.6.29 to 2.6.30 and re-ran Peacekeeper	Jun 14 09:22
DaemonMDV	Firefox went from 820 to 1004	Jun 14 09:22
DaemonMDV	still not great, but lots better	Jun 14 09:22
DaemonMDV	at least it beats IE on Windows again :P	Jun 14 09:22
chips_b_malroy	shillbombers need to go	Jun 14 09:22
oiaohm	Its still hitting all the X11 bugs as well DaemonMDV	Jun 14 09:22
DaemonMDV	heh, my only problem with Opera is it doesn't feel right	Jun 14 09:23
DaemonMDV	in GNOME	Jun 14 09:23
DaemonMDV	it feels much more native in KDE	Jun 14 09:23
oiaohm	_Mutex__ the downturn really did not hit MS. MS did.	Jun 14 09:23
*_Mutex_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Jun 14 09:23
oiaohm	Dumping product means you have less true sales.	Jun 14 09:23
DaemonMDV	well, since it really doesn't cost Microsoft anything to give Windows away	Jun 14 09:23
DaemonMDV	and those people would have used Linux	Jun 14 09:24
_Mutex__	what you mean the almost world wide recession did not hit a consumer company like MS that sells to the general public, that does not have any money these days	Jun 14 09:24
DaemonMDV	it's really not any lost money to Microsoft	Jun 14 09:24
DaemonMDV	it's a customer that's hooked when they can pay	Jun 14 09:24
chips_b_malroy	Seven will only sell on OEM new sales, it still Vista and is entirely new machine depentant.	Jun 14 09:24
oiaohm	_Mutex__: how could Linux sales go up.	Jun 14 09:24
oiaohm	Both are selling to consumers.	Jun 14 09:24
oiaohm	Australia and quite a few other countries are not in recession.	Jun 14 09:25
chips_b_malroy	This MS does not seem to understand, there will be no bump in sales from the release of Seven, if the recession has not slowed	Jun 14 09:25
_Mutex__	oiaohm, I have no idea, but I would expect that not too many Linux'es are actually "SOLD".	Jun 14 09:25
oiaohm	There are more being sold at moment.	Jun 14 09:25
chips_b_malroy	what, 4 million people in Australia?	Jun 14 09:25
_Mutex__	time will tell on that one,	Jun 14 09:25
oiaohm	Even novell Linux section sold more.	Jun 14 09:25
oiaohm	Since the downturn started.	Jun 14 09:26
_Mutex__	23 million , close :)	Jun 14 09:26
chips_b_malroy	k	Jun 14 09:26
oiaohm	Novell recored a nice 25% growth in there Linux department.	Jun 14 09:26
_Mutex__	at the present time australia is the strongest economy in the western world, we had growth last quarter so we are not in an official recession	Jun 14 09:27
oiaohm	Redhat as recorded almost 200%	Jun 14 09:27
oiaohm	Something is wrong.	Jun 14 09:27
_Mutex__	over what period of time ?	Jun 14 09:27
oiaohm	Last 3 months.	Jun 14 09:27
_Mutex__	200% in 3 months ??	Jun 14 09:27
oiaohm	IBM income has stayed level.	Jun 14 09:28
oiaohm	MS departments dropped. Linux deparments went up.	Jun 14 09:28
chips_b_malroy	is it at the end of this month that MS comes out with another finical quarter?	Jun 14 09:28
_Mutex__	but relatively speeking based on size of profit and turnover, RH is still way way down there.	Jun 14 09:29
_Mutex__	and you say RHEL rose 200% in 3 months ?	Jun 14 09:29
oiaohm	RHEL has basically been in record sales since the down turn started.	Jun 14 09:29
chips_b_malroy	any predictions of that MS quarter coming up? While I would not wish their employees bad, I predict further layoffs. Things are not getting better here in the USA	Jun 14 09:30
oiaohm	The downturn has not effect everyone _Mutex__	Jun 14 09:30
oiaohm	Only selected companies have been hammered.	Jun 14 09:31
chips_b_malroy	and its not the same in all areas of the USA as well	Jun 14 09:31
_Mutex__	mabey give me a minute to confirm	Jun 14 09:31
chips_b_malroy	expect more cutting of programs, expect more layoffs soon at MS	Jun 14 09:32
chips_b_malroy	coming soon this quarter	Jun 14 09:32
oiaohm	MS has hit themselves.	Jun 14 09:32
chips_b_malroy	Vista DRM is a dog, buyers resisted it	Jun 14 09:33
oiaohm	MS got use to living off high profits per item.	Jun 14 09:33
chips_b_malroy	Seven will not be much better as it is Vista	Jun 14 09:33
_Mutex__	thats why there is only 180 million vista licenses in the wild i guess.	Jun 14 09:33
chips_b_malroy	Linux and Mac are cutting into desktop market share now	Jun 14 09:33
oiaohm	MS has been desporate to kill netbook linux's so they can lift windows price.	Jun 14 09:34
oiaohm	Now Linux's entering again with smartbooks.	Jun 14 09:34
chips_b_malroy	Roy, see, Mutex, shillbomber	Jun 14 09:34
chips_b_malroy	offers little to discussion	Jun 14 09:34
_Mutex__	chips ?? why is that, Do I ask too many logical questions and ask for too many facts for you ?	Jun 14 09:35
_Mutex__	whats your problem ?	Jun 14 09:35
oiaohm	180 million licences is really not that many when you wake up Volume licences using XP downgrade mode is counted in that number.	Jun 14 09:35
_Mutex__	mabey not that many, but Canicial states they have 10 million ubuntu's out there, so its a bit more than that, for a failure its "seems" quite popular.	Jun 14 09:36
oiaohm	And anyone on software as a service still running XP also got counted.	Jun 14 09:36
oiaohm	So real numbers of vista are way less.	Jun 14 09:36
_Mutex__	no, this is Vista licenses sold, no xp licenses	Jun 14 09:36
oiaohm	Vista licence on volume.	Jun 14 09:37
oiaohm	You get sent out xp key and disks as well.	Jun 14 09:37
oiaohm	So you don't order XP of course to be correct its not even on the list.	Jun 14 09:37
_Mutex__	how ever you count it , there are at least 180 vista's running on peoples computers,	Jun 14 09:37
_Mutex__	million	Jun 14 09:37
oiaohm	180 million licence sold.	Jun 14 09:37
oiaohm	Not 180 million running copies.	Jun 14 09:37
chips_b_malroy	XP sales are counted as Vista sales, this is what you are saying oiaohm	Jun 14 09:38
oiaohm	Yep.	Jun 14 09:38
chips_b_malroy	true	Jun 14 09:38
_Mutex__	1 year ago RHT was $22 and today they are $21	Jun 14 09:38
chips_b_malroy	downgrade rights	Jun 14 09:38
_Mutex__	NO they are NOT, sorry, this is a count of VISTA licenses NOT XP licenses. geezz.	Jun 14 09:38
oiaohm	There is no difference between a Vista licence and a XP licence if you are build.	Jun 14 09:39
chips_b_malroy	you see, Mutex is a MS shill, because he only argues the MS position	Jun 14 09:39
oiaohm	You buy a vista user wants XP you use downgrade rights.	Jun 14 09:39
oiaohm	of vista to install it for customer.	Jun 14 09:39
_Mutex__	C'mon this is a COUNT OF VISTA's sold end of story, dont change the facts to fit your idea	Jun 14 09:39
oiaohm	so you don't have to try to remove the Vista licence sticker.	Jun 14 09:39
oiaohm	It a count of windows licence sold that can install up to vista _Mutex__	Jun 14 09:40
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_Mutex__	NOT ITS NOT,	Jun 14 09:40
chips_b_malroy	mostly in some ways, you buy Vista and XP, so MS sells twice	Jun 14 09:40
oiaohm	Just like you can use XP licences to install 98 se.	Jun 14 09:40
_Mutex__	Its a count of the number of VISTA operating systems sold,, Geezz..	Jun 14 09:40
oiaohm	It a count of vista licences.	Jun 14 09:40
_Mutex__	Its a count of VISTA OS's	Jun 14 09:40
oiaohm	Problem not all machines with vista license are running vista from factory.	Jun 14 09:41
_Mutex__	would you like me to link it for you so you can see for yourself ??	Jun 14 09:41
oiaohm	The ones you buy from dell with Xp on most times they are vista licences.	Jun 14 09:41
oiaohm	Not XP licences.	Jun 14 09:41
oiaohm	Make it simpler for them.	Jun 14 09:41
_Mutex__	does NOT matter, MS got the money for the OS, its just like you saying Ununtu has 10 million users or 5 millino who downloaded it twice	Jun 14 09:41
chips_b_malroy	You see Roy, its like you told Goblin, why feed the shills? But yet you are doing so in this IRC channel.	Jun 14 09:41
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oiaohm	Lot of Linux people also buy machine with windows on.	Jun 14 09:42
_Mutex__	sure chops is see facts are not your stong suit	Jun 14 09:42
oiaohm	Reason they are cheeper than withotu windows on.	Jun 14 09:42
oiaohm	Because dell and others offset cost of windows with crapware.	Jun 14 09:42
DaemonMDV	Microsoft counts sales of XP systems as Vista purchases that were "downgraded"	Jun 14 09:43
oiaohm	That they get paid to install on the machines.	Jun 14 09:43
DaemonMDV	then reports Vista sales	Jun 14 09:43
DaemonMDV	;)	Jun 14 09:43
_Mutex__	NO THEY DONT im sorry but this time you are flat out wrong wrong wrong sorry,	Jun 14 09:43
oiaohm	You can get a total of 200 dollars back from installing crap on machines.	Jun 14 09:43
chips_b_malroy	depends on the krap	Jun 14 09:43
oiaohm	All those trials and demos of stuff you get on new machines the maker is being paid.	Jun 14 09:43
oiaohm	They don't put them on there for free.	Jun 14 09:44
chips_b_malroy	MS Office trial and Norton or McAffee antivirus, krapware that pays the most	Jun 14 09:44
chips_b_malroy	1 to 3 months	Jun 14 09:45
chips_b_malroy	not worth the hassle to remove, which is not always easy	Jun 14 09:45
oiaohm	Also my downloads of distributions same with most australian would not turn up on Ubuntu count.	Jun 14 09:45
chips_b_malroy	maybe some wild tangent games, (infected sometimes as well)	Jun 14 09:46
oiaohm	For the simple reason I download them from my local filemirror that don't count to my quota.	Jun 14 09:46
_Mutex__	anyone stupid enough to use norton or mcaffee needs to be shown how to secure ANY OS is 5 minutes, free, with basically zero overhead	Jun 14 09:46
oiaohm	_Mutex__: OEM's put them there not for customer but because they get paid	Jun 14 09:46
chips_b_malroy	no, they do get paid	Jun 14 09:47
oiaohm	Its about 20 dollars to install a trial version of nortons or mcaffee	Jun 14 09:47
_Mutex__	I guess some do, the stupid ones.	Jun 14 09:47
oiaohm	And about 25 dollars if you buy a full version.	Jun 14 09:47
chips_b_malroy	but they don't call it krapware for nothing	Jun 14 09:48
chips_b_malroy	better off with a fresh install, but wait, dosen't MS only give u 3 installs now?	Jun 14 09:48
oiaohm	Also you would notice dell don't provide standard vista or xp disk to do a clean restore with.	Jun 14 09:49
_Mutex__	only 3 installs ? yea right	Jun 14 09:49
oiaohm	So any time you reinstall you get all the crapware back.	Jun 14 09:49
chips_b_malroy	I think not	Jun 14 09:49
oiaohm	3 installs then you have ring MS to activate.	Jun 14 09:49
chips_b_malroy	that is what the OEM's put	Jun 14 09:49
schestowitz	ChanServ: just ignore shills	Jun 14 09:50
_Mutex__	or just get on the net like everyone else	Jun 14 09:50
schestowitz	They chnage discussions	Jun 14 09:50
schestowitz	to gpl bashin, vista...	Jun 14 09:50
chips_b_malroy	I know someone who had to reinstall Vista 5 times b4 taking the laptop back and getting money back	Jun 14 09:50
*schestowitz eats		Jun 14 09:50
chips_b_malroy	they refused to give new serial	Jun 14 09:50
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chips_b_malroy	and user said it crashed because of their bad drivers	Jun 14 09:51
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oiaohm	I am a registered system builder chips_b_malroy	Jun 14 09:51
chips_b_malroy	never worked right, and user took it back (whole laptop) and got money back on all.	Jun 14 09:52
oiaohm	So right quote MS number they unlock the bugger.	Jun 14 09:52
oiaohm	I forget non regestered don't get that.	Jun 14 09:52
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chips_b_malroy	you can also tell them it their problem, which it is, and demand, yell, and swear at them, on the 4th and 5th reinstall, which works too	Jun 14 09:53
oiaohm	Bad drivers are a major pain for Linux or Windows.	Jun 14 09:53
oiaohm	chips_b_malroy: mine simpler.	Jun 14 09:53
chips_b_malroy	sure, but not anywhere as bad as Vista	Jun 14 09:53
oiaohm	Just have to quote my system builder number.	Jun 14 09:53
chips_b_malroy	even XP had some driver problems, but not too bad	Jun 14 09:53
oiaohm	and it very much ok unlocking now.	Jun 14 09:53
oiaohm	Or emailing out new key.	Jun 14 09:54
oiaohm	I love the emailing out new key bit.	Jun 14 09:54
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chips_b_malroy	this was all by phone	Jun 14 09:54
DaemonMDV	hmmmm, thats odd	Jun 14 09:54
DaemonMDV	on 2.6.30, I can't mount video DVDs	Jun 14 09:54
oiaohm	By phone.	Jun 14 09:54
DaemonMDV	but on 2.6.29, I can	Jun 14 09:54
chips_b_malroy	the point being MS knew Vista was a problem, but still tryed to limit to 4 reinstalls	Jun 14 09:55
chips_b_malroy	*3	Jun 14 09:55
oiaohm	Ok that is strange I just inserted Daredevil here and it mounted DaemonMDV	Jun 14 09:55
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chips_b_malroy	and theres Damon off on another tagent	Jun 14 09:55
DaemonMDV	want me to take screenshots?	Jun 14 09:56
oiaohm	That something damon and me have been talking about chips_b_malroy	Jun 14 09:56
DaemonMDV	it says invalid mount option and won't load the disc	Jun 14 09:56
chips_b_malroy	k	Jun 14 09:56
oiaohm	What is the video DaemonMDV	Jun 14 09:56
DaemonMDV	I tried two discs	Jun 14 09:56
_Goblin	hi all...	Jun 14 09:56
DaemonMDV	non-video discs load fine	Jun 14 09:56
chips_b_malroy	hi Goblin	Jun 14 09:56
_Goblin	hi!	Jun 14 09:57
*_Mutex__ is now known as _Mutex_		Jun 14 09:57
chips_b_malroy	Must be early on the other side of the pond	Jun 14 09:57
DaemonMDV	well, it's not like community provided kernels go through a quality control process	Jun 14 09:57
DaemonMDV	that's why they're in Contrib	Jun 14 09:57
DaemonMDV	so oh well	Jun 14 09:57
_Mutex_	7:15 PM here Sunday	Jun 14 09:57
chips_b_malroy	So Daemon, why did u, if you did, give up on Vista????	Jun 14 09:58
oiaohm	Ok my eject button unmount now works DaemonMDV	Jun 14 09:58
DaemonMDV	cause PC Guy's flashy sign told me to	Jun 14 09:58
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 09:58
chips_b_malroy	explain? if u can	Jun 14 09:58
chips_b_malroy	so I can learn	Jun 14 09:59
chips_b_malroy	wga get you?	Jun 14 10:00
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 10:00
DaemonMDV	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRAUlK8_2VE	Jun 14 10:00
chips_b_malroy	no utube	Jun 14 10:00
oiaohm	I build my own personally from source DaemonMDV	Jun 14 10:00
_Mutex_	why would you want to know what OS someone is using ?	Jun 14 10:00
DaemonMDV	are you in Iran or something?	Jun 14 10:00
chips_b_malroy	not letting u get off that easy	Jun 14 10:01
chips_b_malroy	u a big windose fan, explain it to us	Jun 14 10:01
oiaohm	_Mutex_: knowing what OS people are using is handy as a developer so you can fix problems in the one most users are using.	Jun 14 10:01
chips_b_malroy	I would have accepted wga	Jun 14 10:01
_Mutex_	well you explain yourself for us first :)	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	I don't have to deal with WGA even while in Vista	Jun 14 10:02
_Mutex_	what are you using and why ?	Jun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroy	if u pirated it maybe	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	my license turns it off	Jun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroy	or cracked it	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	the product activator also never crops up	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	no matter what hardware I swap in or out	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 10:02
_Mutex_	wga never seen it , or drm for that matter	Jun 14 10:02
DaemonMDV	SLP	Jun 14 10:02
chips_b_malroy	explain	Jun 14 10:02
oiaohm	My machine is a little strange. its part ubuntu part debian part fedora part centos at moment.	Jun 14 10:03
oiaohm	And that is running at the current moment.	Jun 14 10:03
chips_b_malroy	Daemon, and oiaohm, I still maintain XP for malware programs, as I fix windows computers from time to time.	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	a SLIC/SLP license will turn Windows activation and WGA off	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	the user never has to deal with them	Jun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroy	its a CRACK	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	it's a Gateway	Jun 14 10:04
oiaohm	I normally deal with XP malware from Linux.	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroy	crack	Jun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroy	OEM CRACK	Jun 14 10:04
DaemonMDV	no, it's an OEM machine	Jun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroy	what I said	Jun 14 10:04
chips_b_malroy	Pirate	Jun 14 10:05
_Mutex_	I normally deal with XP malware saying "I dont have any, So now ill do something interesting"	Jun 14 10:05
oiaohm	Not all users are smart _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:05
oiaohm	As techs we see the idiots the most.	Jun 14 10:06
_Mutex_	thats true,	Jun 14 10:06
_Mutex_	yes we do I agree,	Jun 14 10:06
oiaohm	I use to laugh about the coffee cup holder joke until I saw my first one.	Jun 14 10:06
chips_b_malroy	most cannot update their antivirus, and let it lapse	Jun 14 10:06
oiaohm	Sadly I still see it from time to time.	Jun 14 10:06
chips_b_malroy	I see that all the time	Jun 14 10:06
DaemonMDV	Paul Frields says the patent questions surrounding Mono unnerve them	Jun 14 10:06
_Mutex_	well my mom can update her AV software and install and run FF and she's 70	Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDV	I think they just want to have an excuse to ditch competitors products	Jun 14 10:07
chips_b_malroy	and, they cannot save their passwords	Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDV	if they were that concerned, Mono never would have been in Fedora to begin with	Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDV	much less lasted what, like 4-5 versions now?	Jun 14 10:07
DaemonMDV	it's been there a while	Jun 14 10:07
chips_b_malroy	Pirate Daemon is back without explanation I see	Jun 14 10:07
_Mutex_	but yes, i too have seen ancient Notons incredably out of date on some poor saps machine.	Jun 14 10:08
DaemonMDV	you can't tell me that something with that many red flags didn't have Red Hat Legal wondering 3 years ago	Jun 14 10:08
oiaohm	Define ancient.	Jun 14 10:08
DaemonMDV	why suddenly worry about it?	Jun 14 10:08
oiaohm	I had a customer coming in the other day wanting to install nortons 1.0 on XP.	Jun 14 10:08
_Mutex_	But still no problem, quick clean of crap, quick install of AVGFree, invoice customer, go home	Jun 14 10:08
_Mutex_	Job done	Jun 14 10:08
DaemonMDV	yeah, no shortage of work fixing Windows	Jun 14 10:08
_Mutex_	well there is alot of em	Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDV	if they ever got rid of Windows, thousands of jobs cleaning up after spyware would be lost	Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDV	perhaps tens of thousands	Jun 14 10:09
_Mutex_	not for me, every customer I attend is fixed, and fixed for good.	Jun 14 10:09
DaemonMDV	entire industry dedicated to changing Windows' dirty diapers	Jun 14 10:09
_Mutex_	and yes, if they have similar problems I return call for free, (but I never have to do that).	Jun 14 10:10
DaemonMDV	that's bullshit	Jun 14 10:10
DaemonMDV	you're a parasite	Jun 14 10:10
DaemonMDV	ripping off the ignorant and ill-informed	Jun 14 10:10
_Mutex_	mabey for you it is my 'friend'	Jun 14 10:10
_Mutex_	im sorry im me being good at my job offends you, (well actually im not) but I thought I would say that anyway	Jun 14 10:11
DaemonMDV	you don't exactly do anything	Jun 14 10:11
chips_b_malroy	you see oiohm, after a while you tire of fighting the shillbombers. Even after you corner one, that he cracked or pirated the OS, and he just changes the subject, as any MS Shill would.	Jun 14 10:11
DaemonMDV	you take advantage of people	Jun 14 10:11
_Mutex_	I do whats needed to satisify the customer, I leave them with a working and secure OS and an inviation to call me should you have further problems	Jun 14 10:12
DaemonMDV	Why don't you go file a fraudulant welfare claim or something	Jun 14 10:12
DaemonMDV	at least that's one step up on the ethics ladder	Jun 14 10:12
_Mutex_	I provide a service THEY ask for and get, you know, its sort of what Red Hat does, but I guesss its ok for them right ?	Jun 14 10:12
chips_b_malroy	Daemon does not understand what "free" software really is. He thinks pirating windows software is "free' software, but its not.	Jun 14 10:12
_Mutex_	Daemon thats a touch childish	Jun 14 10:13
chips_b_malroy	It is free, but its not really free	Jun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV does not raid ships at sea, kill the crew and steal their Vista		Jun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV has no idea what they are talking about		Jun 14 10:13
*DaemonMDV is confused		Jun 14 10:13
chips_b_malroy	explain please	Jun 14 10:13
_Mutex_	oh yea, I also maintained Linux systems as well, were they poor saps I was ripping off?	Jun 14 10:13
oiaohm	Ok _Mutex_ how often does a correctly setup Linux box need work.	Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDV	if everything ran on Linux, 90% of his work would disappear	Jun 14 10:14
_Mutex_	quite often sometimes,	Jun 14 10:14
oiaohm	Even if users are installing applications.	Jun 14 10:14
chips_b_malroy	Anyway, Roy, I made my point, if you let the shillbombers run over the IRC channel, the other users will leave.	Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDV	assuming he even knows how to do anything other than install freeware antivirus	Jun 14 10:14
oiaohm	I find very little _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:14
DaemonMDV	and bill the customer $70	Jun 14 10:14
_Mutex_	chops you have a problem with the truth ?	Jun 14 10:15
_Mutex_	or logic?	Jun 14 10:15
oiaohm	You don't have the windows problem of slowing down over time.	Jun 14 10:15
chips_b_malroy	nice you call me chops, on MS Watch they had close names	Jun 14 10:15
oiaohm	With the Linux systems.	Jun 14 10:15
chips_b_malroy	MS shill tatic	Jun 14 10:15
DaemonMDV	oiaohm: You have to admit there has to be a better way to do settings than gconf files	Jun 14 10:16
oiaohm	Linux systems normally slow down a little for about 4 months then they level off.	Jun 14 10:16
_Mutex_	sorry o and i are right next to each other, unfortunate typ0	Jun 14 10:16
DaemonMDV	but at least it's not a huge binary mass called a registry that's sensitize to paths changing	Jun 14 10:16
DaemonMDV	and whatnot	Jun 14 10:16
oiaohm	Registries not good either DaemonMDV.	Jun 14 10:16
chips_b_malroy	the registary is terrible problem, the conf files in linux are far far superior	Jun 14 10:16
oiaohm	gconf is not the woset or the best.	Jun 14 10:17
DaemonMDV	unless the power goes out	Jun 14 10:17
DaemonMDV	and it forgets to write them to disk	Jun 14 10:17
DaemonMDV	which Ext4 exposed	Jun 14 10:17
chips_b_malroy	how about just conf as I use KDE	Jun 14 10:17
oiaohm	And I have a lazy solution.	Jun 14 10:17
_Mutex_	what a huge bunch of blobs of text files are better the a BD ? mabey, but debatable	Jun 14 10:17
DaemonMDV	well really XFS did, but more people were using Ext3 and got hit with that problem with Ext4	Jun 14 10:17
_Mutex_	DB not bd	Jun 14 10:17
oiaohm	There is a shell on my boxs that user selects and it copies defaults in.	Jun 14 10:17
oiaohm	Or restores from last working backup.	Jun 14 10:18
chips_b_malroy	Registary is also getting hosed with malware, or crashing so bad that windows cannot start	Jun 14 10:18
oiaohm	gconf failure is not a major issue.	Jun 14 10:18
chips_b_malroy	not an issure as conf only mostly affects indiviual programs in nix	Jun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroy	regristray in windows is major problem	Jun 14 10:19
_Mutex_	does the registary do that does it, Hmm, never seen that before	Jun 14 10:19
_Mutex_	and ive seen alot of computers,	Jun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroy	yes	Jun 14 10:19
chips_b_malroy	google it	Jun 14 10:19
oiaohm	I have even seen the complete directory that the registries should be in contain no files.	Jun 14 10:19
_Mutex_	Oh ok, mabey you need some lessons on Windows systems maintenance, oiaohm do you have lots of registary problems on your win boxes y ou fix.	Jun 14 10:20
oiaohm	Because the crash lined up with the directory data write on ntfs.	Jun 14 10:20
chips_b_malroy	lots of programs out there that claim to fix or recover corrupted/bad regristaries in windows	Jun 14 10:20
chips_b_malroy	they cannot mostly	Jun 14 10:20
oiaohm	I do data recovery _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:20
oiaohm	I get the worst of the worst.	Jun 14 10:20
_Mutex_	yes, so do i, and I still have not seen it, I spent years working for a major bank in Aus over 800 branches, and we never had that problem on thousands of machines	Jun 14 10:21
oiaohm	Most often registry repairs are cleaned up boy lowers.	Jun 14 10:21
_Mutex_	Actually contracting for IBM, maintaining the banking NT system.	Jun 14 10:22
chips_b_malroy	Roy needs to weed out the Windows Shills and Linsux shills from this IRC channel	Jun 14 10:22
oiaohm	XP _Mutex_ SP1 is known for it.	Jun 14 10:22
_Mutex_	and anyone you dont agree with ?	Jun 14 10:22
DaemonMDV	Novell is now prioritizing Ubuntu packages	Jun 14 10:22
DaemonMDV	for Banshee betas	Jun 14 10:22
_Mutex_	xp sp1, ?? why would you use that ?	Jun 14 10:22
DaemonMDV	they get them and OpenSuse get them	Jun 14 10:22
oiaohm	It is just more likely to do it _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:23
_Mutex_	sure.	Jun 14 10:23
oiaohm	Its write order releated.	Jun 14 10:23
oiaohm	Most cases it does not hit the registries.	Jun 14 10:23
_Mutex_	but it must be very very rare, im no spring chicken, ive been around the block a few hundred times, and its rare, i know it is	Jun 14 10:23
oiaohm	You know the ones where folder was full and next day nothing.	Jun 14 10:23
oiaohm	You run repair and files come back.	Jun 14 10:24
oiaohm	As if nothing was wrong.	Jun 14 10:24
chips_b_malroy	u think, always? LOL	Jun 14 10:24
oiaohm	That every now and again it get the registry.	Jun 14 10:24
oiaohm	So you cannot boot and windows installer will not repair.	Jun 14 10:24
chips_b_malroy	I think windows is a way to hose up, sometimes it can run and boot up for 3 years, and other times, it boot for 3 months and crashes on same computer	Jun 14 10:25
chips_b_malroy	but Linux just runs and runs	Jun 14 10:25
chips_b_malroy	windows is just not stable, its like playing Russian Roulette	Jun 14 10:26
oiaohm	I have only seen registry to the disappear without help twice once in 1999 with NT4 and 8 months ago with XP.	Jun 14 10:26
chips_b_malroy	I have seem it many many times	Jun 14 10:26
oiaohm	There are ways you can force it to happen.	Jun 14 10:26
_Mutex_	mabey, but I find its totally stable, makes me wonder what your doing wrong ?	Jun 14 10:26
_Mutex_	chips do you use windows regularly ?	Jun 14 10:27
oiaohm	Also the chkdsk normally picks up the stuffed directories.	Jun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroy	I don't jave the shill version	Jun 14 10:27
_Mutex_	or have you used it since win95 ?	Jun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroy	I guess	Jun 14 10:27
oiaohm	Most people who suffer from disappearing directories skip chkdsk	Jun 14 10:27
chips_b_malroy	I stopped at xp	Jun 14 10:27
_Goblin	Im unfortunately still using it (Vista) albeit at work.	Jun 14 10:28
oiaohm	Defect hidden from view _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:28
oiaohm	But it is a sitting time bomb.	Jun 14 10:28
_Goblin	I've been with Windows since 3.1	Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_	so you have not used XP much either ?	Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_	sp2 ?	Jun 14 10:28
_Goblin	who me?	Jun 14 10:28
_Mutex_	chips	Jun 14 10:28
_Goblin	ah	Jun 14 10:28
oiaohm	Most of my recovery work is done on Linux _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:29
chips_b_malroy	the regristary usually crashes from two things, malware, and bad sectors on the hard drives, but other things can crash it as well	Jun 14 10:29
oiaohm	_Mutex_: something can appear stable but be repairing it self like mad in background.	Jun 14 10:30
chips_b_malroy	Goblin, I am an old fart and go back, way back into the Dos days	Jun 14 10:30
_Mutex_	he's just saying Win is crashing on him all the time, this is NOT normal operation for windows xp and beyond at all, therefore you may be doing something wrong with your sys-admin or you just dont have any experience with a stable version of windows such as xp, vista or win7, but there is nothing wrong with not using them, but there is commenting on them, to people who know different	Jun 14 10:30
oiaohm	I have XP run stable for a while.	Jun 14 10:31
oiaohm	Major problem I run into as a system admin is slow down.	Jun 14 10:31
_Mutex_	me too, a little while like 8 years :)	Jun 14 10:31
_Goblin	I go back to the DOS days, although I had an affair with the A500 and didn't really hit Windows until 3.1	Jun 14 10:31
chips_b_malroy	who said its crashing all the time?	Jun 14 10:31
_Goblin	I believe my first real PC experience was with COBOL and Dbase IV	Jun 14 10:31
_Mutex_	ahh, you remember GOMF ?? i loved my a500	Jun 14 10:31
chips_b_malroy	I said it can, crash as often as three months	Jun 14 10:31
_Goblin	great times...	Jun 14 10:32
chips_b_malroy	Once got 3 years of heavy use out of XP	Jun 14 10:32
oiaohm	Particular hardware combinations are particular bad for XP.	Jun 14 10:32
oiaohm	Like the machine I have here.	Jun 14 10:32
_Goblin	Ive just had a week of Netbook XP.	Jun 14 10:32
oiaohm	I got motherboard for nothing because it was driving a tech in a business nuts.	Jun 14 10:32
_Mutex_	mine was disassembling machine code from a 2708 1K ROM which contained PIPBUG that was the "operationg system" for your 2K ram 1Mhz 2650 cpu and teletype I/O, and mid 1978	Jun 14 10:32
chips_b_malroy	I talking about the same hardware oiaohm	Jun 14 10:33
oiaohm	Put XP on it you could almost bet inside 4 days it will not have a operational sound card.	Jun 14 10:33
_Goblin	I think thats a little before my time...	Jun 14 10:33
_Mutex_	LOL	Jun 14 10:33
oiaohm	The machine was being uses to teach a multi media class.	Jun 14 10:33
chips_b_malroy	Goblin, Dos 3.21 here started	Jun 14 10:33
oiaohm	So you can guess how that was working.	Jun 14 10:33
DaemonMDV	I've thought about trying the Ubuntu testing branch, but I've lived on that before	Jun 14 10:33
_Goblin	is there anyone here under the age of 30?	Jun 14 10:34
_Goblin	If not it makes me feel better.	Jun 14 10:34
chips_b_malroy	Goblin, this stte is starting to look like MS Watch, sad	Jun 14 10:34
oiaohm	Linux on it works perfectly not a single issue _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:34
_Mutex_	first "electronic" keyboard I had, i soldered the keys onto a piece of vero board, and hard wired it to the Chips address and data buss, then I had to assemble machine code to scan the keys and do the biz.	Jun 14 10:34
_Goblin	which site?	Jun 14 10:34
chips_b_malroy	BN	Jun 14 10:34
oiaohm	A single batch of machine with windows can drive you up wall. _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:35
_Goblin	really? In what way? you mean FUD comments?	Jun 14 10:35
_Mutex_	I have no issue with linux in some applications its the perfect tool for the job.	Jun 14 10:35
_Goblin	* by others	Jun 14 10:35
oiaohm	This machine is completely creative it uninstalls sound driver while its in use _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:35
oiaohm	On XP and Vista.	Jun 14 10:35
chips_b_malroy	you think I am too hard on them?	Jun 14 10:35
oiaohm	Its some form of hardware glitch same model motherboard does not do the same thing _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:36
chips_b_malroy	maybe, but I get tired of the FUD	Jun 14 10:36
_Goblin	I don't think youre too hard...We are talking about IT so its not like its personal.	Jun 14 10:37
_Mutex_	chips, the way you fix that is to become informed, because facts arnt fud.	Jun 14 10:37
chips_b_malroy	no, its not	Jun 14 10:37
chips_b_malroy	*Goblin	Jun 14 10:38
chips_b_malroy	its not personal	Jun 14 10:38
oiaohm	Lot of large windows deployments using image installs to quicky recover the odd machine that goes strange with windows.	Jun 14 10:39
chips_b_malroy	like with Daemon, it was pirated. The point was not to accuse him of being a pirate, which I could care less. The point was, its not really "free" software.	Jun 14 10:39
oiaohm	Only things I ever pirated was dos and a few games.	Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroy	beside the point	Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroy	but honest anwser	Jun 14 10:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Even though its still in Beta, I'm very impressed with Chrome on Linux...		Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroy	10 points	Jun 14 10:40
chips_b_malroy	Chrome is fast fast	Jun 14 10:41
chips_b_malroy	I respect honesty oialhm	Jun 14 10:41
oiaohm	Most of the games I pirated I have bought since.	Jun 14 10:41
oiaohm	Data recovery means I see lot of strange things.	Jun 14 10:42
chips_b_malroy	only play a few games, seldom in fact	Jun 14 10:42
oiaohm	1 in a billion seams common.	Jun 14 10:42
_Mutex_	it is especially if you are the 1 :)	Jun 14 10:43
oiaohm	I guess you have not see dell servers that you can reboot just by inserting a particular brand usb key.	Jun 14 10:43
oiaohm	With windows 2003	Jun 14 10:43
chips_b_malroy	The point I was trying to make with Daemon, was he could not see the difference in "free" pirated windows and really "free" GNU/Linux	Jun 14 10:43
oiaohm	Dud batch if usb controllers.	Jun 14 10:44
chips_b_malroy	as both are free for Daemon and many windose users	Jun 14 10:44
_Mutex_	its the difference between free to steal and free to use,	Jun 14 10:44
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oiaohm	And the difference between having to spend time paying for it.	Jun 14 10:45
_Mutex_	Ive got nothing against pirating, but like oiaohm i never find the necessity	Jun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroy	but there is major differences, just like there is differences in the licences in the underlying Mono dependacies	Jun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroy	good for u, Mutex	Jun 14 10:45
oiaohm	In my mind most people are brats	Jun 14 10:45
chips_b_malroy	not that I really care who pirates MS	Jun 14 10:46
oiaohm	They must have the brand name shoe kind of brats.	Jun 14 10:46
oiaohm	So they never look at anything else.	Jun 14 10:46
chips_b_malroy	its not like I work for M$	Jun 14 10:46
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oiaohm	You know the one nikes on shelf but since rebocks are not there they are not having the shoes.	Jun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroy	True, brand name. Linux is sort of generic, in that its free. But MS costs a bundle, sorry for the punc	Jun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroy	*[und	Jun 14 10:47
chips_b_malroy	pund	Jun 14 10:47
oiaohm	Also the idea that the higher the price the better the item should be stupidity.	Jun 14 10:48
_Mutex_	its costs some, but far from "a bundle".	Jun 14 10:48
oiaohm	Price does not equal quality.	Jun 14 10:48
chips_b_malroy	$400 for ultimate boxed version when it first came out, I would say that is a "bundle."	Jun 14 10:48
_Mutex_	generally speaking it does,, but yes, not necessaraly	Jun 14 10:49
oiaohm	Heck if MS OS matched there sales pitches over the years we would be virus free.	Jun 14 10:49
chips_b_malroy	or $399	Jun 14 10:49
_Mutex_	$120 for win Xp , over 8 years of use $1.56 per month, less that a cup of coffee	Jun 14 10:49
oiaohm	XP total predicted life was 10 years.	Jun 14 10:49
chips_b_malroy	u sound just like a MS saleman, or shill	Jun 14 10:49
_Mutex_	why because I can add ?	Jun 14 10:50
_Goblin	he's a little late if he is....I don't think MS wants to sell XP anymore ;)	Jun 14 10:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] I don't think it will be long before the Beta of #Chrome is at a point where I can replace #Firefox (sorry FF)		Jun 14 10:50
_Mutex_	its also not 8 years ago anymore either	Jun 14 10:50
chips_b_malroy	no, because u changed the subject from vista at $399 to XP	Jun 14 10:50
oiaohm	Windows has not followed normal cycle.	Jun 14 10:50
magentar	the russian law that may force ms to continue selling XP for 50 years or so is quite funny	Jun 14 10:51
oiaohm	By now MS would have predide lack of applications would have forced you out of XP _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:51
_Mutex_	vista happen to cost me $120 as well, I dont know where you shop from, but stop it :)	Jun 14 10:51
_Mutex_	your being ripped	Jun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroy	they will continue to sell xp, watch	Jun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroy	but not for 50 years	Jun 14 10:51
chips_b_malroy	its the only thing they have that works on most netbooks	Jun 14 10:52
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chips_b_malroy	they cannot drop it	Jun 14 10:52
_Mutex_	except Win7 and Vista virtulise xp, and most xp stuff works anyway, non issue	Jun 14 10:52
oiaohm	virtulised does not run 3d games well.	Jun 14 10:52
magentar	yes, win7 is even worse for netbooks. the 64bit edition uses 1,7gb ram now when it boots up instead of 1,2 gb like vista	Jun 14 10:52
_Mutex_	Win7 has less overhead that xp	Jun 14 10:52
oiaohm	If that was so Win7 should work in 256 megs of ram _Mutex_	Jun 14 10:53
oiaohm	It don't.	Jun 14 10:53
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oiaohm	If reactos can get there act in order they could take the lower market from MS.	Jun 14 10:53
_Mutex_	Im running win7 on a crappy old compaq (right now), it replaced xp, and its lots faster, and crisper, with aero on the lot.	Jun 14 10:54
_Mutex_	thats just personal experience, but its how it is.	Jun 14 10:54
oiaohm	Really faster or just feels faster.	Jun 14 10:54
chips_b_malroy	forget ReactOS, wine is react, and wine is better	Jun 14 10:54
_Mutex_	really faster,	Jun 14 10:54
oiaohm	Benched.	Jun 14 10:54
oiaohm	windows 7 does a few things that make it feel faster.	Jun 14 10:55
oiaohm	Linux also has been doing things that make it feel slower.	Jun 14 10:55
chips_b_malroy	so why u here Mutex, if you such a Vista lover? Just trolling Roys site or what?	Jun 14 10:55
_Mutex_	but its both the same, its hard to determine how fast, as damn fast well fast enough for me to be happy ( and im critical)	Jun 14 10:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] listening to Romeo Knights greatest A500 demo scene track........		Jun 14 10:55
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_Mutex_	Chips, why do you care ?	Jun 14 10:55
chips_b_malroy	I am curious	Jun 14 10:56
_Mutex_	because you dont agree with me, does that me I should go ?	Jun 14 10:56
oiaohm	Windows 7 uses graphic card to smooth out rendering.	Jun 14 10:56
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_Mutex_	do i present a too logical argument for you,, whats the problem ??	Jun 14 10:56
MinceR	chips_b_malroy: he's here because nobody banned him yet :>	Jun 14 10:56
oiaohm	X11 causes sections of the interface to be drawn at slightly different times like XP does a bit making it feel slower.	Jun 14 10:56
oiaohm	Basically the more actions you see the slower it fells.	Jun 14 10:56
_Mutex_	yes, i expect win7 is starting to make more use of teh GPU	Jun 14 10:56
oiaohm	Being left hanging also makes something fell slower.	Jun 14 10:57
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chips_b_malroy	I wonder when u cannot acknowledge when u lose a point, like the $399. I wonder why u love Vista/Seven. Why not ask?	Jun 14 10:57
oiaohm	Win 7 shows more clearly than XP that application is on way.	Jun 14 10:57
oiaohm	So you don't notice time as much.	Jun 14 10:57
_Mutex_	you want me to prove you paid $300 for vista, or do you want me to prove I paid $120 for it ?	Jun 14 10:57
oiaohm	These are all trick to bend human mind.	Jun 14 10:57
magentar	i used win7 alot on a very fast pc, it still feels much slower than XP, in fact pretty much the same like vista. it's like there has not been any innovation.	Jun 14 10:58
oiaohm	Human mind is one of the worst time measures on earth.	Jun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroy	I could care less what u paid as u well know	Jun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroy	as u changed the point again	Jun 14 10:58
_Goblin	PC Advisor has done comparisons with XP/Vista/7....	Jun 14 10:58
chips_b_malroy	just like Andre would do	Jun 14 10:58
_Mutex_	my point was simple, it was you said it cost a "bundle" I said, that $1.56 is not that much of a bundle (at least to me its not).	Jun 14 10:58
_Goblin	its reporting only a 3 second boot difference between XP and 7...	Jun 14 10:58
_Mutex_	you might think thats alot, Idont	Jun 14 10:58
_Goblin	and in other tests XP is outperforming 7	Jun 14 10:59
_Goblin	especially in the area of DX.	Jun 14 10:59
chips_b_malroy	no, I think $399 is	Jun 14 10:59
oiaohm	_Mutex_: the difference is you had to pay for windows over months it price tag would not be important.	Jun 14 10:59
magentar	it's not really about the messurable performance, but how the os reacts to user commands, how snappy it is etc. win7 is very bad in that area	Jun 14 10:59
_Mutex_	dana I think it was on zdnet did an extensive series of benchmarks between XP, vista, and win7, generally win7 (as y ou would expect) came out on top overall for performance	Jun 14 11:00
oiaohm	Since you have to pay for it all at once you still have to find money.	Jun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroy	Mutex, is $399 too much for Vista Ultimate when it came out??????????	Jun 14 11:00
oiaohm	Not with DX _Mutex_	Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_	if you wan the link, ill dig it up, but im sure you can too	Jun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroy	second time I asked u	Jun 14 11:00
oiaohm	The path in Vista is longer.	Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_	In my books it is.	Jun 14 11:00
chips_b_malroy	thank you	Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_	But its not that much here,	Jun 14 11:00
_Goblin	true, but if MS are pushing it as the Ultimate Windows version, then I think the tests PC Advisor have done are very telling..	Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_	did you pay $399 ?	Jun 14 11:00
_Mutex_	or would you have too ?	Jun 14 11:01
_Mutex_	I dont its far cheaper than that,	Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroy	I did not buy it or put it on my machines	Jun 14 11:01
oiaohm	If game is optimsied to take advantage of DX 10+ it can be slightly faster than XP due to DX 10 instruction queing.	Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroy	I never will	Jun 14 11:01
_Mutex_	So why quote the $399 price ? or is that just a plucked figure ?	Jun 14 11:01
oiaohm	399 is the recommend retail.	Jun 14 11:01
chips_b_malroy	no Its real	Jun 14 11:01
oiaohm	That a lot if idiots will pay.	Jun 14 11:02
_Mutex_	not here its not,	Jun 14 11:02
chips_b_malroy	USA when it came out	Jun 14 11:02
oiaohm	_Mutex_: no one should pay recommend retail.	Jun 14 11:02
_Mutex_	yes it is alot, thankfully thats NOT the price.	Jun 14 11:02
_Goblin	true, but having looked at the various benchmarks I dont believe 7 is such a polished Vista as we were led to believe....maybe lipstick on the pig was a little bit of a compliment to 7...	Jun 14 11:02
chips_b_malroy	not now, MS reduced the price,as it was not selling	Jun 14 11:02
_Mutex_	I dont think win7 is a polished vista either, ive used both and they are as different as linux 2.4 and 2.6	Jun 14 11:03
chips_b_malroy	Yes Goblin, Seven is just Vista with lipstick	Jun 14 11:03
chips_b_malroy	but you seem to have an agenda Mutex, is this true?	Jun 14 11:03
_Mutex_	its more than that I assue you, and chip you have admitted you have not used vista or win7 !!	Jun 14 11:04
MinceR	vista sp7	Jun 14 11:04
_Goblin	Talking of paying.....I refuse to buy anything from any company that says on its advert "We recommend Windows Vista"...if a company recommends Vista then it obviously has no knowledge or experience in the field of IT.	Jun 14 11:04
MinceR	chips_b_malroy: he'll never admit it, he'll just change the subject :)	Jun 14 11:04
chips_b_malroy	no true again Mutex	Jun 14 11:04
_Mutex_	well its not win7 is NOT vista, they are MILES different, in structure and function	Jun 14 11:04
_Mutex_	and performance	Jun 14 11:04
MinceR	_Goblin: they're very hard to avoid	Jun 14 11:04
chips_b_malroy	I did not say I have never used it, only that I did not buy it	Jun 14 11:04
_Goblin	Miles in what way?	Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_	you said you stoped using windows at xp	Jun 14 11:05
_Goblin	in terms of the buying user...	Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_	different	Jun 14 11:05
chips_b_malroy	minceR, agreed, Roy needs to boot some	Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_	sorry chips again, what part of these facts are you having problems with ?	Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_	I would love to know	Jun 14 11:05
chips_b_malroy	typical MS shill, trys to put words into your mouth and change the meaning entirely	Jun 14 11:05
_Mutex_	well you put your own words and explain it to me please	Jun 14 11:06
chips_b_malroy	you don't have to "buy" Vista or Seven to use it	Jun 14 11:06
_Mutex_	but I wont lower myself to that standard of calling someone you dont agree with a shrill	Jun 14 11:06
_Mutex_	anyway, im a troll not a shrill.	Jun 14 11:06
chips_b_malroy	then don't put word in my mouth please	Jun 14 11:06
_Goblin	troll? I'm sorry I disagree.	Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroy	at least you admit you are a troll	Jun 14 11:07
_Mutex_	well you can put your own in anytime, feel free	Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroy	no	Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroy	its not on my machine, I am not a pirate	Jun 14 11:07
oiaohm	_Mutex_: so far benchmarks on Windows 7 says it perform basically the same as Vista.	Jun 14 11:07
_Mutex_	I disagree too goblin, im just trying to humer chips who seems to be getting a touch upset and the logical reasoning !	Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroy	I work on computers, remember	Jun 14 11:07
oiaohm	Most of the difference is fell.	Jun 14 11:07
_Goblin	Regardless of your motives/opinions I think you add to the conversation here. There would be nothing worse than a group of users in a chat room all agreeing with each other....	Jun 14 11:07
chips_b_malroy	I clean malware off them	Jun 14 11:07
oiaohm	Removing the UAC nags helped the feel.	Jun 14 11:08
_Mutex_	_Goblin thankyou, I could not agree more. :)	Jun 14 11:08
chips_b_malroy	Unlike you Goblin, I think Andre did not add to the conversation, and neither does Mutex or the linsux bunch	Jun 14 11:08
chips_b_malroy	except in a humorus way	Jun 14 11:09
_Mutex_	you are welcome to your opinion, but I would prefer is you explained your reasons why you take issue with me ?	Jun 14 11:09
chips_b_malroy	I already did	Jun 14 11:09
oiaohm	_Mutex_: do you have benchmarks showing difference.	Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_	ok, because I put words in your mouth ? and how do I do that pray tell ?	Jun 14 11:10
oiaohm	Or is it just feel _Mutex_	Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_	Ill find em, hang on.	Jun 14 11:10
oiaohm	It would be interesting to know where the difference are.	Jun 14 11:10
_Mutex_	keeping in mind its win7 beta against RTM xp and vista.	Jun 14 11:10
oiaohm	http://www.eofw.org/bench/ Its like number 7 on this bench yep 600 mhz machine beating a 3000 mhz machine.	Jun 14 11:11
oiaohm	Particular work loads show different alterations.	Jun 14 11:13
_Mutex_	is thatnot a benchmark only for rendering ?	Jun 14 11:13
oiaohm	It a benchmark for render farms.	Jun 14 11:14
oiaohm	It a particular workload.	Jun 14 11:14
chips_b_malroy	Goblin, I am still working on the secure windows article for u	Jun 14 11:14
_Mutex_	a bit specialised, and not really across the board test,	Jun 14 11:15
oiaohm	Its not like a 600 mhz x64 core machine is going to win against a 3000mhz in every test.	Jun 14 11:15
_Mutex_	but still valid for what it is.	Jun 14 11:15
_Mutex_	exactly	Jun 14 11:15
oiaohm	Every bench mark tests different kinds of work load.	Jun 14 11:15
oiaohm	There is no such thing as a the pefect bechmark that tests every thing.	Jun 14 11:16
_Mutex_	thats why its generally a suite of tests.	Jun 14 11:16
oiaohm	Even a suite	Jun 14 11:16
_Mutex_	to evaluate all functions.	Jun 14 11:16
oiaohm	It can still not cause bottle neck events just by call order.	Jun 14 11:16
oiaohm	Reason why all benchs are taken with a grain of salt. And why when having a bench showing something different to others is interesting.	Jun 14 11:17
oiaohm	Its normally pointing to a particular workflow having an advantage. The question is what one.	Jun 14 11:17
_Mutex_	ofcourse, and they can be turned to suit as well, the best way, is to try it.	Jun 14 11:18
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oiaohm	basically all the benchs I have seen so far point to vista and windows 7 being the same.	Jun 14 11:18
oiaohm	That is why if you have different it interest me.	Jun 14 11:18
oiaohm	What did the rest miss.	Jun 14 11:19
_Mutex_	http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12554_22-255234.html this is not the one I was looking for as it has xp and vista this one does not, ill keep looking	Jun 14 11:20
oiaohm	cinebench I depend on for graphical stuff is slower in that benchmark set on windows 7. Interesting little bit of general usage gain.	Jun 14 11:23
_Mutex_	dont forget its build 6956, its over 7100 now,	Jun 14 11:24
_Mutex_	and the later builds are faster	Jun 14 11:24
_Mutex_	my vista is build 6002	Jun 14 11:24
oiaohm	http://vimeo.com/5137477 << thinking I am hoping to be using this in release form before Windows 7 is released.	Jun 14 11:45
_Goblin	sorry I was afk for a while...Chips it'll be up on the site as soon as you send it!	Jun 14 11:53
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Best tech news story ever: http://bit.ly/1n6yD		Jun 14 12:20
kentma	_Mutex_: I really haven't the slightest interest in your, or any other, vista build. This channel is not concerned with such things.	Jun 14 12:27
_Mutex_	that was an hour ago !!, we'll picked :)	Jun 14 12:27
kentma	This channels' function hasn't changed in the last hour.	Jun 14 12:28
kentma	or the last day, or week, or month, etc.	Jun 14 12:28
_Mutex_	im sure this channel is also not really concerned with what your interests are either.	Jun 14 12:28
_Mutex_	I know it hasnt.	Jun 14 12:28
kentma	schestowitz: Roy, you need to come in on the dyndns interface - something is up with the demon one (again).	Jun 14 12:30
_Mutex_	mabey I should pop up and have a random poke at someone in this channel for something to do :) hey kentma ??	Jun 14 12:33
kentma	schestowitz: I don't really know why I pay for it sometimes...	Jun 14 12:33
schestowitz	Oh	Jun 14 12:34
schestowitz	Let me see what was said...	Jun 14 12:34
kentma	schestowitz: it's the demon interface down (again). You need to come in on the otherone.	Jun 14 12:34
schestowitz	I see...	Jun 14 12:35
schestowitz	I have 2/3 routes in	Jun 14 12:35
schestowitz	Thanks for letting me know	Jun 14 12:35
kentma	no worries.	Jun 14 12:35
schestowitz	BTW, the trolls can probably be kicked	Jun 14 12:35
schestowitz	It's part of that troll site Gary likes	Jun 14 12:35
schestowitz	linusxx	Jun 14 12:35
kentma	oh I see what you mean. I was talking about my server...	Jun 14 12:36
kentma	sorry for the confusion!	Jun 14 12:36
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schestowitz	There's an attempt to diffuse here	Jun 14 12:47
schestowitz	Since about 9 days ago	Jun 14 12:47
schestowitz	It could be related to other abuses against the site. Now I know what PJ means when she becomes babysitter.	Jun 14 12:48
schestowitz	I'll post some Linux news tonight	Jun 14 12:49
schestowitz	"UN approves 'unprecedented' sanctions against North Korea over nuclear test" http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/12/un-north-korea-nuclear-sanctions	Jun 14 12:52
schestowitz	"PC firms face China decree" http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,25603145-36375,00.html	Jun 14 12:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Wall Street’s Toxic Message" http://ping.fm/UUC4u		Jun 14 12:55
schestowitz	"Microsoft Updates Windows Vista With Service Pack 2"	Jun 14 12:58
schestowitz	"Microsoft Will Offer Windows 7 Upgrade with Vista, Announces Server Launch"	Jun 14 12:58
schestowitz	Vapourware!	Jun 14 12:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. Out of 1500 MSFT headlines only 4 mention "Vista" in the headline. They really buried that embarrassment.		Jun 14 13:00
_Mutex_	do you think they will release a version of "Green Dam-Youth Escort" in open source for Linux, or require Linux to ship with a proprietary binary blob, and do FOSS want to "opening themselves to charges of abetting censorship."	Jun 14 13:00
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schestowitz	Headlines for Vista7 in the same period: over 60. That's one heck of a vapourware pattern. Talk about what WILL be, not what there is.	Jun 14 13:01
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schestowitz	The PR puppet in CNET is just tossing Vista7 promotion 24/7	Jun 14 13:03
schestowitz	This is classic W-E marketing slog	Jun 14 13:03
schestowitz	Lots of anti-Apple items along these lines too...	Jun 14 13:04
schestowitz	"Windows 7 Beats Snow Leopard On Older Hardware Support - PC World"	Jun 14 13:04
schestowitz	"Analyst: Windows 7 Launch Will Slow Apple's Mac Business (SiliconAlley)"	Jun 14 13:05
schestowitz	Who pays those analysts	Jun 14 13:05
schestowitz	Who pays IDG.. ? :-)	Jun 14 13:05
tacone	omg, i read the jo shield post	Jun 14 13:05
tacone	the last famous one.	Jun 14 13:05
tacone	how bad.	Jun 14 13:05
_Mutex_	where is it ?	Jun 14 13:05
tacone	http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/rants/124/	Jun 14 13:05
_Mutex_	thanks :)	Jun 14 13:06
tacone	lies, hidden truths and so on.	Jun 14 13:06
schestowitz	Microsoft commercials lead to complains... http://www.xboxic.com/news/5377	Jun 14 13:06
tacone	schestowitz: in the comments he also pointed out the famous 'killing comments'	Jun 14 13:07
tacone	how coward.	Jun 14 13:07
schestowitz	tacone: seen what shimitsudok wrote about it?	Jun 14 13:07
schestowitz	ushimitsudok.	Jun 14 13:07
schestowitz	tacone: yes, he shows you anonymous comments	Jun 14 13:07
schestowitz	BN NEVER DELETED COMMENTS	Jun 14 13:07
schestowitz	So it's like saying the park is a pile of shit because I found some poop under the bench	Jun 14 13:08
tacone	so he thinks this is shit to be taken seriously ? http://boycottnovell.com/2009/06/09/mono-critique-for-ubuntu/#comment-65907	Jun 14 13:08
tacone	http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/21/death-by-microsoft-windows/#comment-58764	Jun 14 13:08
schestowitz	tacone: no	Jun 14 13:08
tacone	it is idiotic to classify a 'throw people into volcano' as serious	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	But he needs to kill the messenger	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	By implying the messenger kills	Jun 14 13:09
tacone	i've seen the giving up post of ushi, yep.	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	Can you blame him?	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	He writes long posts, then gets trolled	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	Or his posts removed	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	"Me and Ubuntu"	Jun 14 13:09
tacone	ushi ? well, he was so good at pointing out their crap	Jun 14 13:09
tacone	no wonder he got trolled.	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	Makes me wonder if he'll swap distros in the near future..	Jun 14 13:09
schestowitz	tacone: yes, the hypocrisy	Jun 14 13:10
tacone	many people will	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	Like copyright assignment	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	Novell whining about OOo while doing the same with Mono	Jun 14 13:10
tacone	and debian fans say 'please don't impose ubuntu on us'	Jun 14 13:10
tacone	'mono by default = making debian the same as ubuntu'	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	No more prepaid boxes for RRoD 360s from Microsoft http://www.geek.com/articles/games/no-more-prepaid-boxes-for-rrod-360s-from-microsoft-20090610/	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	Microsoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/52547/microsoft-no-more-coffins-for-busted-xbox-360-consoles/	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	Hehe.	Jun 14 13:10
schestowitz	Not enough funds?	Jun 14 13:11
tacone	nice equation if you think about it.	Jun 14 13:11
_Mutex_	what do you think of FOSS in Australia becoming a charity so they can get tax deductable donations, does foss condone begware ?	Jun 14 13:11
tacone	debian + mono = ubuntu	Jun 14 13:11
schestowitz	There was one that said, what are we, opensuse?	Jun 14 13:11
schestowitz	_Mutex_: see response from Scott	Jun 14 13:12
_Mutex_	k :)	Jun 14 13:12
schestowitz	It's quite enjoyable watching Mcirosoft news this year	Jun 14 13:13
schestowitz	They announce nothing new, they close down divisions	Jun 14 13:13
schestowitz	Not there's a wii ripoof (natal)	Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz	*ripoff (ish)	Jun 14 13:14
tacone	ripoop.	Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz	"Nintendo tried, rejected motion-capture tech of Xbox Natal - Seattle Post Intelligencer"	Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz	"Natal is good... for me to poop on"	Jun 14 13:14
schestowitz	Context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ylHMSSvfU8	Jun 14 13:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft: No more "coffins" for busted Xbox 360 consoles http://ping.fm/plyP4		Jun 14 13:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz appalling. SAVE VISTA!!!		Jun 14 13:15
schestowitz	" insult comic dog "	Jun 14 13:15
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Jun 14 13:17
oiaohm	I prefer samsung to 360's	Jun 14 13:18
schestowitz	tacone: well done attracting attention to posts about the issues such as Mono and censorship. This encouraged Fedora to look into it and Ubuntu will need to reconsider how it manages (censors) forums.	Jun 14 13:18
oiaohm	They sent out the new monitor and you just had to put yours in the box sent.	Jun 14 13:19
oiaohm	And return it.	Jun 14 13:19
schestowitz	I've been pressing on Red Hat for a while	Jun 14 13:19
oiaohm	What MS was doing was stupid.	Jun 14 13:19
schestowitz	Some people in Red Hat don't like Mono.	Jun 14 13:19
tacone	really ?	Jun 14 13:19
tacone	i did encourage fedora to do anything ?	Jun 14 13:19
tacone	i don't think i had any effect at all.	Jun 14 13:19
schestowitz	The whole attention it has been getting	Jun 14 13:19
schestowitz	Debian is where the discussion is at right now	Jun 14 13:19
schestowitz	Debian has Mono opposition too	Jun 14 13:20
oiaohm	Ie send out box. Send back 360 then repaired or replacement out.	Jun 14 13:20
tacone	url ?	Jun 14 13:20
schestowitz	Mono was controversial before BN existed	Jun 14 13:20
tacone	yep, they're trolling Millan.	Jun 14 13:20
oiaohm	Notice something here you lose a box each time.	Jun 14 13:20
schestowitz	Groklaw is among the critics	Jun 14 13:20
oiaohm	MS is not known for there brains.	Jun 14 13:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: The XP Daemon had bad XBox experiences	Jun 14 13:20
schestowitz	I wonder just how much they lost	Jun 14 13:21
oiaohm	Samsung uses common sence.	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	InfoWeek said $7 billiob	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	But these numbers are guesswork at best	Jun 14 13:21
oiaohm	It saves a box and 1 extra trip of shipping.	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	It was $6 in 2006	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	*$6bn	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	So just $7bn in 2008?	Jun 14 13:21
schestowitz	20,000,000x 360s (sold at loss+ many replacements) + losses from XBox..	Jun 14 13:22
schestowitz	Income is from Games and XBox Live	Jun 14 13:22
_Mutex_	I believe (not confirmed) MS's last financial report showed xboxes starting to turn a profit !, I know the original idea was to sell cheap for takup. Kinda like FOSS but for hardware.	Jun 14 13:23
schestowitz	At $200 loss per sale it's about $6bn in losses for XBox360	Jun 14 13:23
schestowitz	This does not include repairs	Jun 14 13:23
_Mutex_	so its going to take a LOOOG time to recoup	Jun 14 13:23
schestowitz	And R&D	Jun 14 13:23
_Mutex_	yes	Jun 14 13:23
schestowitz	And XBox losses	Jun 14 13:23
_Mutex_	what do they say "you gotta be in it to win it"	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	Cause of ballmer	Jun 14 13:24
_Mutex_	no prizes for standing on the side line	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	He says they must expand	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	Unlike Cisco for example	Jun 14 13:24
_Mutex_	yes	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	Ballmer insist that without expansion you shrink	Jun 14 13:24
oiaohm	At current rate of braken downs MS should just scrap the Xbox360 line and refund the money it will be cheaper.	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	But they just get burned online and in console	Jun 14 13:24
schestowitz	*consoles (among other areas)	Jun 14 13:24
_Mutex_	he's right without expansion you do shrink, relative to the world getting more populated	Jun 14 13:25
schestowitz	Well, sony cleaned up with PS2	Jun 14 13:25
_Mutex_	yes, its very popular	Jun 14 13:25
_Mutex_	I dont know about wii,	Jun 14 13:25
_Mutex_	ive actually never even been interested in getting a console	Jun 14 13:26
_Mutex_	not a gamer	Jun 14 13:26
schestowitz	http://www.videobusiness.com/index.asp?layout=talkbackCommentsFull&talk_back_header_id=6450706&articleid=CA6458001 "JULY 6 \| FROM VARIETY: Defective Xbox 360s will cost Microsoft more than $1 billion on its bottom line. "	Jun 14 13:26
oiaohm	PS3 out lasts xbox360's. Heck at least with a PS3 you can simply replace a dead harddrive.	Jun 14 13:26
schestowitz	MS bought Expedia	Jun 14 13:26
schestowitz	No?	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	And Encarta	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	That's dead	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	FLight Simulatr	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	Dead	Jun 14 13:27
oiaohm	The wii also has a long operational life.	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	Ensemble...	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	And the list goes on..	Jun 14 13:27
oiaohm	Biggest problem about wii has been flying controllers.	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	RazorFish...	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	Danger	Jun 14 13:27
_Mutex_	ahh yes, big problem is, it does not really matter if they make a loss in some segments, its is actually a handy tax write off	Jun 14 13:27
schestowitz	Buying for the sake of buying	Jun 14 13:27
oiaohm	To a point _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:27
_Mutex_	im disippointed the flight sim is gone, not that i ever used it :)	Jun 14 13:28
_Mutex_	oh yes, to a point exactly, just ask chrisler	Jun 14 13:28
schestowitz	Maybe I played it before it was MS'	Jun 14 13:28
schestowitz	Many, many years ago	Jun 14 13:28
schestowitz	Maybe 10+	Jun 14 13:28
_Mutex_	Yes, me too, when it still had the twin towers in it, I still have that win95 version	Jun 14 13:28
oiaohm	Problem I have is MS having money problems and Linux really is not attacking them yet.	Jun 14 13:29
schestowitz	"No more Microsoft points, user ratings" http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/06/xbox-live-evolves-no-more-microsoft-points-user-ratings.ars	Jun 14 13:29
oiaohm	Would you not give up having to pay for ads cal's in windows networks if you could _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:29
_Mutex_	linux seems to be somewhat pre-occupied with internal affairs	Jun 14 13:30
schestowitz	That's its nature	Jun 14 13:30
schestowitz	It's not a company	Jun 14 13:30
oiaohm	Doing the conversion from server to desktop is a painful process _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:30
_Mutex_	yes, :)	Jun 14 13:30
schestowitz	COmpanies follow orders from one route	Jun 14 13:30
schestowitz	Ballmer descending downwards	Jun 14 13:30
schestowitz	Bazaar means everyone is boss	Jun 14 13:30
_Mutex_	which ofcourse brings with it some great benifits and some difficult problems	Jun 14 13:31
oiaohm	DRI2 conversion and building open source video card drivers has sucked up a lot of resources.	Jun 14 13:31
oiaohm	Upgrading Linux kernel to be more realtime to assist desktop and embeded is also sucking up resources.	Jun 14 13:32
schestowitz	"Microsoft keeps dividend, opens investor question" http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/story/*http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090611/us_microsoft_dividend.html?.v=4	Jun 14 13:33
oiaohm	End result will be quite a tech jump forwards _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Don't believe the FUD about Theora vs H.264: http://is.gd/11CUi this rubbish is all over, stamp on it every time someone pulls it		Jun 14 13:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] James Ray's Gangwar are really rather good. What Sisters of Mercy would have sounded like had Eldritch not disappeared up his own nose.		Jun 14 13:35
schestowitz	MS has found another shill (Injazat Data Systems) http://www.zawya.com/story.cfm/sidZAWYA20090614082948	Jun 14 13:35
_Mutex_	yes, but a massive amount of work and development to get real time and predictable results, it will probably require a change in methodology, generally more interrupt based.	Jun 14 13:35
_Mutex_	rip out all global variables, modularise everything, divide critical and non-critical threats its a big big job. but well worth it.	Jun 14 13:36
oiaohm	The difference between 2.6.29 and 2.6.30 in a lot of that is quite massive.	Jun 14 13:36
_Mutex_	Linux is over due for a from scratch re-write.	Jun 14 13:36
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oiaohm	Over the last 10 versions there is almost not a single section of the core code not altered _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:37
amarsh04	Linux has been more "rewritten" than any other code base that size	Jun 14 13:37
amarsh04	snap	Jun 14 13:37
_Mutex_	re-writing is very different than maintaining or patching modules.	Jun 14 13:38
oiaohm	This is rewriting.	Jun 14 13:38
_Mutex_	clean room ?	Jun 14 13:38
oiaohm	redesigning the complete lock system.	Jun 14 13:38
oiaohm	That is the hart of a OS.	Jun 14 13:38
oiaohm	Lock system don't work OS don't work.	Jun 14 13:38
oiaohm	way file access are done have been altered.	Jun 14 13:39
_Mutex_	thats great, its about time, that applies to most sections of an OS, if one bit dont work, its usually a show stopper.	Jun 14 13:39
oiaohm	Way memory management is done is altered to a completely different design.	Jun 14 13:39
oiaohm	This is in 10 subversions of 2.6	Jun 14 13:39
_Mutex_	thats good too, I assume thats is mainly for 64-bit	Jun 14 13:39
_Mutex_	but will benifit 32 as well	Jun 14 13:40
oiaohm	64 and 32 bit branches are being merged	Jun 14 13:40
oiaohm	So there will not be 2 split branches for x86.	Jun 14 13:40
oiaohm	Only 1 that builds for either 64 or 32 bit.	Jun 14 13:40
_Mutex_	yes	Jun 14 13:40
oiaohm	This is also being applied to other archs where able.	Jun 14 13:40
oiaohm	You are talking about a rewrite.	Jun 14 13:41
oiaohm	Its underway.	Jun 14 13:41
amarsh04	I build kernels for my PII-266 on the amd64 fine (-:	Jun 14 13:41
*kentma has quit ("Leaving.")		Jun 14 13:41
_Mutex_	ofcourse, does not matter as long as you have the right switches set	Jun 14 13:41
oiaohm	There is a lot less core code now than at the start of the process.	Jun 14 13:41
_Mutex_	is it quicker to compile on 64-bit ?	Jun 14 13:41
*kentma (n=user@host86-152-97-204.range86-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell		Jun 14 13:42
oiaohm	More drivers less core code.	Jun 14 13:42
amarsh04	apart from the faster, dual-core cpu? I don't know	Jun 14 13:42
oiaohm	64 bit build not much different.	Jun 14 13:42
_Mutex_	yea, what was linux ver 1.0 100K lines of code	Jun 14 13:42
oiaohm	Gcc really not built to take advantage of 64 bit.	Jun 14 13:42
_Mutex_	now what 6 millions + or is it 11 mil ? cant remember	Jun 14 13:42
_Mutex_	True, gcc has some inherent problems, its optimization is not the best	Jun 14 13:43
oiaohm	2.6.28 linux kernel 7M ±2M' lines of code.	Jun 14 13:43
oiaohm	Vista 17M ±9M	Jun 14 13:44
_Mutex_	sounds about right	Jun 14 13:44
oiaohm	Vista is not what you call small.	Jun 14 13:44
schestowitz	Linux does not need a rewrite	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	Utter FUD	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	It is very well engineered and rewritten by the modules	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	Many times entire lumps of code are thrown away and replaced	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	Stuff like KVM gets merged	Jun 14 13:45
trmanco	crap	Jun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Bartz says search engine Bing unlikely to make significant mark" http://ping.fm/A6yVo		Jun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] That whole "BING" nonsense at least keeps Yahoo! safe from Microsoft,for now.. http://ping.fm/msjG2		Jun 14 13:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] meh, Evolution hogging 250 MB of ram... that's 1/4 of my total ram :\| Better restart the app before it hits the swap space...		Jun 14 13:45
oiaohm	Some sections of Linux need rewritting. Like full support for hard realtime that not even Vista support that.	Jun 14 13:45
_Mutex_	I guess not having the Windows source code its source file may to any size, same with linux its not a very accurate value, if you are carefull and comment alot, its bloats the source but not the compiled code	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	New filesystem are entered, etc.	Jun 14 13:45
schestowitz	Microsoft is very immature in that respect. Like finally saying bye to BSD's TCP/IP	Jun 14 13:46
schestowitz	And having HUGE holes by replacing it in Vista	Jun 14 13:46
_Mutex_	No certainly not, windows is NOT a RTOS,	Jun 14 13:46
schestowitz	Send packet, own Vista.	Jun 14 13:46
schestowitz	Well done. True MS engineering	Jun 14 13:46
oiaohm	NT design is RTOS.	Jun 14 13:46
oiaohm	Due to miss placed locking it cannot do it.	Jun 14 13:46
_Mutex_	they droped BSD's tcp stack years and years ago.	Jun 14 13:47
_Mutex_	ancient history	Jun 14 13:47
oiaohm	Yet they kept the ping of death support upto XP _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:47
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oiaohm	Vista was the first with a new TCP/IP stack completely.	Jun 14 13:48
_Mutex_	I would argu NT is an RTOS, few if any PC desktop OS's are RTOS, thats includes VMS or NT (if its a derivative of it), none of them have 100% predictable response nor interrupt based. which is a basic requirement for RTOS.	Jun 14 13:49
_Mutex_	It cant push an interrupt onto the stack, it has to deal with it immediatly, regardless of what your doing, making it not so great for desktop operations.	Jun 14 13:49
schestowitz	The image says it all about the author's intent:http://www.itpro.co.uk/611455/linux-and-windows-battle-for-netbooks	Jun 14 13:49
_Mutex_	QNX is your best bet for a good POSIX RTOS	Jun 14 13:49
trmanco	320 MB :O	Jun 14 13:49
trmanco	insane	Jun 14 13:49
schestowitz	trmanco FF sometimes takes 1.3GB on mine	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	Then I kill it	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	worse than Thunderbird, hard to believe	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	FF2 was fine	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	schestowitz, not firefox	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	But plugins seem to poison FF3	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	firefox is gine with 100 MB	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	fine*	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	yeah	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	that's in any app	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	Maybe I should mess with about:confid	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	To limit how much it allocated	Jun 14 13:50
schestowitz	It annoys me that I hit swap with 2GB because of FF	Jun 14 13:50
trmanco	lol	Jun 14 13:51
trmanco	I hat it when I hate swap	Jun 14 13:51
trmanco	hate*	Jun 14 13:51
schestowitz	X takes 750MB	Jun 14 13:51
schestowitz	Virtual	Jun 14 13:51
schestowitz	Just about 200mb in practice	Jun 14 13:51
oiaohm	Good RTOS can push interrupt of not important classes to stack so important ones can be processed _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:51
oiaohm	Good RTOS's are not that bad to use as a desktop.	Jun 14 13:52
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schestowitz	Dell is still in bed with MS: http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/18204.cfm http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20090611005079&newsLang=en	Jun 14 13:53
trmanco	this is one time only because I'm downloading my hole gmail folder	Jun 14 13:53
oiaohm	Basically making Linux a full RTOS provides the halfway tech a decent desktop OS needs _Mutex_	Jun 14 13:54
schestowitz	Any decision about this yet? http://portland.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html?ana=yfcpc http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2009/06/01/daily41.html ("Apple, Google, Microsoft, others may be under scrutiny for hiring practices")	Jun 14 13:55
schestowitz	trmanco: better whole than hole /dev/null/)	Jun 14 13:56
trmanco	oops	Jun 14 13:56
trmanco	yeah whole*	Jun 14 13:56
schestowitz	oiaohm: there are Linus derivatives for RTOSes	Jun 14 13:56
schestowitz	*nux	Jun 14 13:57
schestowitz	Or more like branches with some blobs on them	Jun 14 13:57
oiaohm	Those branches are slowly being merged into main schestowitz.	Jun 14 13:57
schestowitz	BlueCat, Concurrent, Red Hat has one too... and there's Novell's SLERT.. maybe MontaVista handles this to	Jun 14 13:57
schestowitz	*too	Jun 14 13:57
oiaohm	Threaded interpert handling in 2.6.30 came from one of those branches.	Jun 14 13:57
oiaohm	Same with better io control.	Jun 14 13:58
schestowitz	Yes, they called for a RTOS/embedded branch some time ago	Jun 14 13:58
schestowitz	Morton circa April 2008	Jun 14 13:58
schestowitz	That's a growth area	Jun 14 13:58
oiaohm	Still slowly merging away.	Jun 14 13:58
schestowitz	Better than desktop	Jun 14 13:58
oiaohm	Lot of the locking fixes also come from there.	Jun 14 13:58
oiaohm	Locking is a night mare of RTOS's.	Jun 14 13:59
schestowitz	Intel has VXWorks now	Jun 14 13:59
oiaohm	Ie I need to respond to something and something else has locked it bugger I just missed the time window.	Jun 14 13:59
oiaohm	Opps someone dead.	Jun 14 13:59
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schestowitz	Apple fans getting excited about WWDC ATM..	Jun 14 14:00
DaemonMDV	yeah, where they laugh at Microsoft, then copy then	Jun 14 14:01
schestowitz	Admiration of company events... rallying silly volunteers	Jun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV	Microsoft responds by copying the Mac	Jun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV	*them	Jun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV	they both get it about half right	Jun 14 14:01
schestowitz	To copy the Mac one needs to start with UNIX	Jun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 14:01
DaemonMDV	NT is based on a lot of the same ideas	Jun 14 14:02
DaemonMDV	though obviously made incompatible and hidden from the user	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	Windows is built on top of mud, not soil	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	Microsoft thought it can outdo science by ignoring it	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	And then promote /faith/ in Windows instead	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	Adding sudo in 2005	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	And done badly	Jun 14 14:02
schestowitz	Silver Lie does not make ANY headlines anymore	Jun 14 14:03
schestowitz	Dead in the water, I bet. They complained no-one experimented with it	Jun 14 14:03
schestowitz	MLB kicked it to the curb too	Jun 14 14:03
DaemonMDV	apparently one of the reasons for people liking Mono is because C++ makes it difficult to make a decent multithreaded application	Jun 14 14:03
schestowitz	So did NYT (WPF)	Jun 14 14:03
oiaohm	That is a fairly poor reason DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:04
DaemonMDV	Linus Torvalds has hated C++ with a passion for years	Jun 14 14:04
DaemonMDV	and made no secret of it	Jun 14 14:04
DaemonMDV	I doubt he would like Mono, but still	Jun 14 14:04
oiaohm	vala is quite nice for multi threaded.	Jun 14 14:04
DaemonMDV	he won't allow any C++ in the kernel	Jun 14 14:05
oiaohm	There is no logical reason for it.	Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDV	it's all C or assembler (in a few areas)	Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDV	cause it's so easy to make a disaster with C++	Jun 14 14:05
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_Mutex_	hate c++ ?? gee, thats quite restrictive of a top level developer.	Jun 14 14:05
oiaohm	Does not help that when you ask a C++ programmer to optimise for speed.	Jun 14 14:05
schestowitz	News about no news... sigh Apple, Microsoft make mediocre moves < http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2009/06/12/Opinions/Apple.Microsoft.Make.Mediocre.Moves-3747438.shtml >	Jun 14 14:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz indeed. Bartz: "Bing? Hahahahano. Go away." Morse: "We will proactively synergise our buzzwords to hahahano, go away."		Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDV	because every programmer that uses C++ effectively creates a new language	Jun 14 14:05
DaemonMDV	because it's so bloated and ambiguous	Jun 14 14:05
_Mutex_	its not like c++ is a windows or MS thing either	Jun 14 14:05
oiaohm	Lot of case you end up with code that is basically C with a few alters.	Jun 14 14:06
schestowitz	"	Jun 14 14:06
schestowitz	I sat there shaking my head in disbelief as I realized I had just witnessed possibly the most disheartening Apple keynote in recent memory. Three years ago, Steve Jobs introduced the adoption of Intel chips in Apple machines, a move that would send its market share soaring. A year later he walked up on stage and announced the phone that would change the mobile world forever."	Jun 14 14:06
DaemonMDV	the C++ standard is over twice as big as C because it has to do everything C can and implement all of itself on top of it	Jun 14 14:06
_Mutex_	Its not really, considering you are able to code pure C within C++ so if you like like OOP, you dont have to follow OOP principles.	Jun 14 14:06
DaemonMDV	the standard ended up being over 300 pages long	Jun 14 14:06
oiaohm	Gcc cannot optimise C++ static for nuts.	Jun 14 14:06
_Mutex_	does he hate java as well, its basically the same thing even more so.	Jun 14 14:06
oiaohm	You can do OOP in C without needing C++ too.	Jun 14 14:07
_Mutex_	that is very true oiaohm	Jun 14 14:07
DaemonMDV	It would be nice if something like Mono came along that didn't have the patent and political problems associated with it	Jun 14 14:07
oiaohm	Most likely that will be vala DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:07
oiaohm	Language like C# the performance of C.	Jun 14 14:08
DaemonMDV	JAVA is too damned huge and slow to create anything non-trivial that doesn't need a gazillion megabytes of RAM	Jun 14 14:08
_Mutex_	not really you cant name mangle, or or overload functions in C. but yes you can code in objects with many languages, its just not optimal.	Jun 14 14:08
DaemonMDV	I think Limewire is a pretty much proof of that	Jun 14 14:08
_Mutex_	yes, ive heard that about java, never use it myself. but its just an extension of C++ and enforces OOP	Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDV	a Gnutella client written in Java that needs 4 times the RAM of GTK-Gnutella	Jun 14 14:09
oiaohm	How does C++ do it. _Mutex_ you have to remember C++ at one stage was just a pure translator to C++.	Jun 14 14:09
oiaohm	Opps	Jun 14 14:09
oiaohm	Last C++ C	Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDV	or Vuze	Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDV	a Bittorrent client written in Java	Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDV	that needs 8 times the RAM of Transmission	Jun 14 14:09
oiaohm	Major problem is JIT systems.	Jun 14 14:09
DaemonMDV	then there was that god awful AOL Instant Messenger for Linux that was written in Java	Jun 14 14:10
_Mutex_	C++ is an extension of S&M and then later ANSI C and C++ standard.	Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV	before they euthanized it	Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV	mercifully	Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV	:D	Jun 14 14:10
oiaohm	Unlike true native code Linux kernel and other OS kernels don't know how to cheeply clear memory.	Jun 14 14:10
oiaohm	When using a JIT.	Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV	Sadomasochism?	Jun 14 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/DUJcI Good for GNU/Linux that can nicely occupy those Mac PCs, filling them with modern, top-of-the-line operating systems.		Jun 14 14:10
DaemonMDV	I agree	Jun 14 14:10
oiaohm	If JIT's are ever going to work they are going to have to extend kernel.	Jun 14 14:11
oiaohm	To allow blocks of themselves to be generated on fly.	Jun 14 14:11
DaemonMDV	you'll feel the veins in your brain start to throb by page 2 of Teach Yourself C++	Jun 14 14:11
oiaohm	And auto dumped like native programs.	Jun 14 14:11
DaemonMDV	I honestly think that anyone who manages to make anything that works well in C++ should go on to cure cancer	Jun 14 14:12
oiaohm	Just think about trying to run a mono program on a PPC chip without ram.	Jun 14 14:12
DaemonMDV	because they're obviously smart enough	Jun 14 14:12
DaemonMDV	they can't be human	Jun 14 14:12
_Mutex_	I know, its head exploding stuff to start with. You want to try LabVIEW for something fun and really interesting. (and fun)	Jun 14 14:12
oiaohm	C++ with a good complier not bad.	Jun 14 14:12
oiaohm	C++ with gcc scream.	Jun 14 14:12
_Mutex_	yes,	Jun 14 14:12
DaemonMDV	it depends, most people know C and enough C++ to pad a resume for an interviewer that won't know the difference	Jun 14 14:13
oiaohm	The lack of whole program optimisations.	Jun 14 14:13
oiaohm	Cause major problems.	Jun 14 14:13
DaemonMDV	and then just limits themselves to a little bit of it now and then to make everything look like it should :P	Jun 14 14:13
DaemonMDV	every C++ programmer establishes their own dialect	Jun 14 14:13
oiaohm	Linux most likely has another 10 percent performance that can be extracted just threw complier improvments.	Jun 14 14:14
DaemonMDV	using C++ is like being in the middle of the ocean with the stars to guide you	Jun 14 14:14
_Mutex_	they shouldnt, C++ is designed to help enforce good coding standards and module re-useability	Jun 14 14:14
DaemonMDV	and Iran-Contra wasn't arms for hostages	Jun 14 14:14
oiaohm	C++ fails at that _Mutex_	Jun 14 14:14
oiaohm	Lot of coders duplicate code inside there programs.	Jun 14 14:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz even on powerpc, dual-boot with Linux is a lifesaver quite often enough to be worth a few gig for a partition		Jun 14 14:15
_Mutex_	yes, it does, its not a good language for QA based software engineering, but used correctly it can create good compiled code.	Jun 14 14:15
DaemonMDV	Sauerbraten is good, Firefox is borderline acceptable	Jun 14 14:15
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 14:16
DaemonMDV	both outstanding achievements by C++ standards	Jun 14 14:16
DaemonMDV	I downloaded the Linux 2.6.30 source tarball	Jun 14 14:16
_Mutex_	Unfortunately the state of the art in computer science is wohfully poor, there seems to be little of no standards or QA disipline instilled in coders these days.	Jun 14 14:16
DaemonMDV	it's finally broken 50 megs	Jun 14 14:17
oiaohm	http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/devel/sparse/ Linux kernel is not built with a stock standard gcc by the developers either _Mutex_	Jun 14 14:17
_Mutex_	unless you compile your own with gcc, but ive heard report that linux runes quite a bit faster if compiled with the INTEL C++ compilers	Jun 14 14:18
DaemonMDV	I hadn't even been following it	Jun 14 14:18
DaemonMDV	or paying attention for a while	Jun 14 14:18
DaemonMDV	it's now actually 72 megs of source	Jun 14 14:18
_Mutex_	thats ok neither have i :)	Jun 14 14:18
DaemonMDV	it's grown 22 of those megs since 2.6.28	Jun 14 14:19
DaemonMDV	god damn.....	Jun 14 14:19
oiaohm	sparse replaces the cpp of gcc _Mutex_ and adds heavy type and allocation checking.	Jun 14 14:19
DaemonMDV	what did they put in?	Jun 14 14:19
oiaohm	Drivers DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:20
oiaohm	Lots of drivers.	Jun 14 14:20
oiaohm	Core code is smaller DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:20
DaemonMDV	sweet	Jun 14 14:20
DaemonMDV	probably nothing I own	Jun 14 14:20
DaemonMDV	but good for whoever has all that stuff I don't	Jun 14 14:20
_Mutex_	sounds interesting, type checking and allocation is good, as is global removal. and variable definitions in one huge include blob, really poor coding practice.	Jun 14 14:21
schestowitz	The Beatles’ Surprise E3 Appearance < http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/01/the-beatles-surprise-e3-appearance/#mod=yahoo_hs >	Jun 14 14:21
DaemonMDV	at this rate the kernel will be over 100 megs by this time next year	Jun 14 14:21
DaemonMDV	the tarball that is	Jun 14 14:22
schestowitz	SO?	Jun 14 14:22
schestowitz	Looking for something to whine about?	Jun 14 14:22
*DaemonMDV wonders when Stall Man will unveil HURD		Jun 14 14:22
schestowitz	Built it thinly if you need small footprint.	Jun 14 14:22
schestowitz	Is that so hard?	Jun 14 14:22
DaemonMDV	it doesn't really matter how big the source is	Jun 14 14:23
schestowitz	Stallman doesn't live in a stall	Jun 14 14:23
DaemonMDV	most of that is for other architectures or stuff I leave out or make into modules	Jun 14 14:23
_Mutex_	hard drives are big these days, OS's are still relatively small by comparison	Jun 14 14:23
oiaohm	Its almost 400 meg extracted as source DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:24
DaemonMDV	if the whole kernel had to be loaded at once, distributions wouldn't be possible	Jun 14 14:24
DaemonMDV	because they tend to put in everything as a module	Jun 14 14:24
oiaohm	_Mutex_: big one was giving user space kernel space pointers. Really bad thing todo.	Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDV	there's really very few things that need to be compiled into the kernel image	Jun 14 14:25
_Mutex_	oh yes, sure is, seems like a security issue possibly as well.	Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDV	just the obvious stuff like keyboard and your mouse and display driver and enough to get it going	Jun 14 14:25
_Mutex_	rule 1 dont give userspace ANYTHING :)	Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDV	it can load the rest as needed if you make modules	Jun 14 14:25
oiaohm	Particularly with the initrd filesystem.	Jun 14 14:25
DaemonMDV	you don't need an initrd really	Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV	just build the file system driver into the kernel	Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 14:26
oiaohm	Hardware drivers for odd hardware.	Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV	it shaves a couple seconds off boot time	Jun 14 14:26
oiaohm	At least in the initrd after you have got them you can bin it.	Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV	if you want bragging rights :P	Jun 14 14:26
DaemonMDV	what will be awesome is when they finally get rid of BIOS and move to EFI	Jun 14 14:27
DaemonMDV	that will cut a few seconds off the boot time too	Jun 14 14:27
DaemonMDV	eventually there will be no point in using suspend on Linux because it will boot in under 10 seconds anyway	Jun 14 14:28
DaemonMDV	it'll come from a combination of things, EFI, no initrd, and SSD isntead of a hard disk	Jun 14 14:28
schestowitz	http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/01/why-you-should-worry-about-research-in-motion.aspx "And if the market weren't crowded enough already, Microsoft (Nasdaq: MSFT) is working on a smartphone code-named "Pink." What do you want to bet that Verizon Wireless will carry that one, too?"	Jun 14 14:29
_Mutex_	yes, looking at come nice performance with that system, if configured well	Jun 14 14:29
schestowitz	Ping and Bing sounds similar? Coincidence?	Jun 14 14:29
_Mutex_	Has anyone seen the PINK (singer) film clip with the penguins ?	Jun 14 14:29
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_Mutex_	Hot blond dancing near a pool with penguins	Jun 14 14:30
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: Bing is also fully functional on Linux	Jun 14 14:30
schestowitz	Pink is not hot	Jun 14 14:30
DaemonMDV	might I suggest trying it with OpenSuse?	Jun 14 14:30
DaemonMDV	:D	Jun 14 14:30
schestowitz	She also seems kind of slutty	Jun 14 14:30
_Mutex_	I would not kick her out to get to you roy,, (sorry) :)	Jun 14 14:31
schestowitz	And she's not blond, either	Jun 14 14:31
_Mutex_	mabey not natural, I would like to get confirmation on that though	Jun 14 14:31
DaemonMDV	I feel truly sorry for anyone that tries to use OpenSuse	Jun 14 14:31
DaemonMDV	it's such a clusterfuck user interface	Jun 14 14:31
schestowitz	confirmation how?	Jun 14 14:31
schestowitz	The old joke?	Jun 14 14:31
schestowitz	Anyway, just watch some interview with these people	Jun 14 14:32
_Mutex_	LOL. might have to go in for a visual :)	Jun 14 14:32
schestowitz	They are very narrow-minded	Jun 14 14:32
schestowitz	_Mutex_: no, the joke is rude	Jun 14 14:33
_Mutex_	ok :)	Jun 14 14:33
DaemonMDV	Mandriva seems to be weird with volume	Jun 14 14:33
DaemonMDV	not every application is affected	Jun 14 14:33
schestowitz	"Bing Is Now the Only Search Engine on IE6" http://seekingalpha.com/article/140955-bing-is-now-the-only-search-engine-on-ie6?source=yahoo	Jun 14 14:34
DaemonMDV	but some aren't loud enough	Jun 14 14:34
schestowitz	Where is the EU Commission?	Jun 14 14:34
schestowitz	MS commits competition violations here	Jun 14 14:34
schestowitz	What kind of person adjusts volumes per app?	Jun 14 14:34
schestowitz	Maybe a few sound pros	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	I'm not trying to	Jun 14 14:35
schestowitz	No-one else cares	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	it's just that I can't hear some DVDs	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	no matter what I do with the volume	Jun 14 14:35
schestowitz	Just use volume control on the app itself or master in the keyboard/lpyhsical speakers.	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	I did	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	I tried setting VLC at 400%	Jun 14 14:35
DaemonMDV	still not loud enough	Jun 14 14:35
schestowitz	See a doctor :-0)	Jun 14 14:35
schestowitz	Van Gough syndrome	Jun 14 14:36
DaemonMDV	Totem can play DVDs	Jun 14 14:36
DaemonMDV	*shrugs	Jun 14 14:36
DaemonMDV	just weird	Jun 14 14:36
oiaohm	Not running pulseaudio by any chance and it stuffed up the VLC audio link.	Jun 14 14:36
_Mutex_	By post :	Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_	European Personnel Selection Office	Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_	Candidate contact service	Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_	Office C-80 00/40	Jun 14 14:38
_Mutex_	B-1049 Brussels	Jun 14 14:38
DaemonMDV	seems like anything that uses Gstreamer is working fine	Jun 14 14:39
DaemonMDV	more Pulseaudio strangeness	Jun 14 14:39
DaemonMDV	I'll shit myself if they ever make Pulseaudio not suck	Jun 14 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Porn Search Blocked in Islamic Countries < http://ping.fm/hg0SX > Not good for share gains.		Jun 14 14:40
schestowitz	DaemonMDV: I can already smell you from here	Jun 14 14:42
schestowitz	China: "The market is currently dominated by Baidu and Google, with respective market shares of 59% and 30.6%, according to Internet research firm Analysis International." http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/06/12/microsoft-launches-search-engine-for-china-but-dont-call-it-bing/	Jun 14 14:43
_Mutex_	wonder if MS will cowtow to the chinese censorship ?	Jun 14 14:44
oiaohm	I have a suspect DaemonMDV	Jun 14 14:44
oiaohm	and its not pulseaudio this time.	Jun 14 14:45
oiaohm	wrong version libasound libs.	Jun 14 14:45
schestowitz	Most Computers MS sellout.. http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=104170	Jun 14 14:49
schestowitz	Intel quietly boosting its software in bid to get chips into smartphones < http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2009284455_btintelsoftware01.html > Haha! Intel in phone... yeah, right..	Jun 14 14:49
schestowitz	Gas-guzzling x86.. and Intel is worse at energy management than AMD	Jun 14 14:50
kentma	schestowitz: why do the shills keep nymshifting, do you think, Roy?	Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_	I wonder if there is a reason why chip makers make terrible software, but they did just acquire Windriver, that has a huge good reputation in the embedded world.	Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_	so that will be their plan to leverage of wind River.	Jun 14 14:51
_Mutex_	who does have RTOS systems,	Jun 14 14:52
_Mutex_	and heaps more	Jun 14 14:52
schestowitz	kentma: here?	Jun 14 14:53
kentma	mmm?	Jun 14 14:53
schestowitz	DaemonMDV might be trying to escape ingore lists	Jun 14 14:53
schestowitz	kentma: some people like him here, some want him yanked	Jun 14 14:54
kentma	probably. I wonder if we need regex capability for ignores?	Jun 14 14:54
kentma	personally, I'd rather he weren't here, but I'm happy to /ignore.	Jun 14 14:54
schestowitz	DaemonMDV: don't change your name anymore	Jun 14 14:54
schestowitz	And use something like ryan perhaps so that bad language will carry a liability with you	Jun 14 14:55
kentma	yeah...	Jun 14 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Russia's action vs MS is weird because they first made a weak allegations re: xp and now it's about bundling. http://ping.fm/DTMyO		Jun 14 14:55
kentma	BNc: Russia plays to different rules.	Jun 14 14:56
_Mutex_	are you refering to me kentma ??	Jun 14 14:56
DaemonMDV	ugggh	Jun 14 14:56
DaemonMDV	speaking of which	Jun 14 14:56
DaemonMDV	I'm trying to navigate through a site written in Russian	Jun 14 14:57
DaemonMDV	with the help of Google Translate in the other tab	Jun 14 14:57
DaemonMDV	heh	Jun 14 14:58
DaemonMDV	bingo	Jun 14 14:58
_Mutex_	I tried BING's translator earlier from french, it did an OK job, nothing to write home about, its got a ways to go.	Jun 14 14:58
schestowitz	kentma: Chips was right when he called it shillflood or something	Jun 14 14:58
schestowitz	It's about drowning out the signal	Jun 14 14:58
DaemonMDV	Nom de dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperie de connard d'enculé de ta mère.	Jun 14 14:59
DaemonMDV	;)	Jun 14 14:59
kentma	schestowitz: presumably, the disastrous results in Redmond are prompting ever greater panic attacks on the rest of us.	Jun 14 14:59
schestowitz	Yes, they are stressed	Jun 14 14:59
schestowitz	Some just leave the company	Jun 14 14:59
kentma	I've often thought that cola could use a "standard" killfile, and probably this channel could use a standard /ignore file :-)	Jun 14 14:59
schestowitz	Including UK heads	Jun 14 14:59
kentma	schestowitz: it's game over for MS now.	Jun 14 15:00
DaemonMDV	ugggh	Jun 14 15:00
schestowitz	Standard /ingore	Jun 14 15:00
_Mutex_	sure it is:)	Jun 14 15:00
schestowitz	I don't quite follow	Jun 14 15:00
schestowitz	_Mutex_: it is	Jun 14 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Philippines is still without a head. Disarray. A few other countries suffered similar fate (India, Singapore, SA...). http://p ...		Jun 14 15:00
DaemonMDV	remind me to back this stuff up when if finishes crossing the Atlantic	Jun 14 15:00
_Mutex_	ok, has their stock price crashed ?	Jun 14 15:00
kentma	but it's interesting watching the death throes.	Jun 14 15:01
schestowitz	Hhaha	Jun 14 15:01
schestowitz	They pump their money into it	Jun 14 15:01
kentma	BNc: :-)	Jun 14 15:01
schestowitz	That's not working	Jun 14 15:01
DaemonMDV	the fucking RIAA made them stop selling this and so it's a fortune on eBay	Jun 14 15:01
DaemonMDV	don't ask	Jun 14 15:01
schestowitz	BNc is just a bot that takes Twitter msgs from BN folks	Jun 14 15:01
kentma	If I were a shill, I'd be looking for another job about now, rather than wasting my time polluting IRC channels and usenet groups and so on.	Jun 14 15:01
schestowitz	DaemonMDV: watch your language	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	_Mutex_: MS valuation sank	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	Their savings are nullified	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	They BORROW money	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	BORROW	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	Why?	Jun 14 15:02
schestowitz	They won't say	Jun 14 15:02
DaemonMDV	that is suspicious	Jun 14 15:02
kentma	desperation? I would imagine that the really senior folk are paying themselves enormous bonuses about now, and the middle and junior management will find themselves in P.45-land soon.	Jun 14 15:03
DaemonMDV	why does a company that sells nothing for outrageous amounts of money need to borrow anything from anyone?	Jun 14 15:03
kentma	They can pay themselves bonsuses from loans, and MS can chapter 11 in 3-5 years and they won't care.	Jun 14 15:03
oiaohm	oss from vlc works fine DaemonMDV	Jun 14 15:03
schestowitz	kentma: exactly	Jun 14 15:03
DaemonMDV	good point	Jun 14 15:03
schestowitz	BillG and steveB have their money	Jun 14 15:03
schestowitz	Probably in some Swiss bank account in Steveb's case	Jun 14 15:04
_Mutex_	their stock price right now is spiking upwards, 12pm it was 22.75 by 4PM its 23.22 (UP 0.50) and climing	Jun 14 15:04
oiaohm	Its something in the alsa stack that kinda strange DaemonMDV	Jun 14 15:04
schestowitz	Gates does not pay tax	Jun 14 15:04
DaemonMDV	so they know they're screwed and are using the company as their own personal piggy bank	Jun 14 15:04
schestowitz	He operated a Rockefeller scam ATM	Jun 14 15:04
DaemonMDV	on the way down	Jun 14 15:04
schestowitz	*rates	Jun 14 15:04
kentma	Rich enough to be a parasite.	Jun 14 15:04
schestowitz	_Mutex_: who cared about FraudStreet?	Jun 14 15:05
kentma	anyway, guests arriving for PM barbecue (my co-governors and senior staff from the school) - should be fun :-)	Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDV	meh, I don't even care about them making off with investors money, cause in this theoretical, we'd be rid of them	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Have people learned nothing about how the market (does not) work?	Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDV	and none of it was my money	Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Buybacks..	Jun 14 15:05
kentma	c u l8r, as my kids sms to me :-)	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Toss some money at the stock	Jun 14 15:05
DaemonMDV	how does it get any better than that?	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Borrow money, see the stock rise	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Bribe Moody's	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	They sell recommendations	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	Got caught by Kucinich	Jun 14 15:05
schestowitz	kentma: no doom tournaments?	Jun 14 15:06
_Mutex_	so how long have they got ??	Jun 14 15:07
DaemonMDV	oh nice	Jun 14 15:07
DaemonMDV	file roller won't tell you that the extraction failed cause there was a password	Jun 14 15:07
DaemonMDV	it just tells you it failed	Jun 14 15:07
DaemonMDV	that helps	Jun 14 15:07
schestowitz	Cuba slams Microsoft censorship http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184454/cuba-slams-microsoft-censorship	Jun 14 15:07
schestowitz	MSFT won't be liquidated any time soon	Jun 14 15:07
schestowitz	Too many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailout	Jun 14 15:08
_Mutex_	I tend to agree	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	Like the one Ballmer begged for 8 months ago	Jun 14 15:08
_Mutex_	have they asked for a bailout ? I have not heard of one.	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	Yes	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	Several times	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	First time in Oct.	Jun 14 15:08
_Mutex_	really, link ?	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	Just after the massive crash	Jun 14 15:08
_Mutex_	what a TARP type bailout ??	Jun 14 15:08
schestowitz	The second-biggest after Black Monday (was it called that?)	Jun 14 15:09
_Mutex_	wasnt that in 87?	Jun 14 15:09
schestowitz	Let me get the URLs	Jun 14 15:09
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_Mutex_	picked it in one	Jun 14 15:09
_Mutex_	thats almost 20 years ago Roy	Jun 14 15:09
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oiaohm	What version asound do you have DaemonMDV. I guess like me not 1.0.20	Jun 14 15:10
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schestowitz	Microsoft calls on Congress to reconsider bailout http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10053774-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Jun 14 15:11
schestowitz	Ballmer: Congress must 'stabilize' financial crisis http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-10054252-75.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20	Jun 14 15:11
schestowitz	Ballmer says Microsoft not immune from global crisis http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080930/bs_nm/us_microsoft_ballmer;_ylt=Au5VO.rh_OuPGHCBr9O.m4K573QA	Jun 14 15:11
schestowitz	Microsoft loses 90 Billion Dollars http://slated.org/microsoft_loses_90_billion_dollars	Jun 14 15:11
schestowitz	Microsoft's Market Cap Falls $24B in 17 Days http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/corporate/microsofts_market_cap_falls_24b_in_two_weeks.html?kc=MWRSS02129TX1K0000535	Jun 14 15:11
schestowitz	Microsoft's Accounting Under Scrutiny http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A03E1DC173DF932A35754C0A96F958260	Jun 14 15:12
schestowitz	Microsoft Agrees To Refrain From Accounting Violations in SEC Settlement http://www.crn.com/it-channel/18819490	Jun 14 15:12
schestowitz	SEC Investigating Microsoft Practices -- Earnings Manipulated, Former Employee Contends http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19990701&slug=2969514	Jun 14 15:12
_Mutex_	you read those Roy ?? they are calling for congress to re-evaluate the bailouts for other companies, from what I see, not for themselves. but to help boost the economy in general. they are talking about TARP type bailouts, but not for MS.	Jun 14 15:15
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_Mutex_	they were talking aobut the $700 bil bail out money that congress rejected, its not MS asking for $700 billion !!	Jun 14 15:16
oiaohm	_Mutex_: without other companies MS does not have sales.	Jun 14 15:18
_Mutex_	exactly, its in MS's interest and the rest of america that your economy is strong, but claiming MS requested bailout money is not accurate, 5 seconds of reading the first link clearly states that.	Jun 14 15:19
_Mutex_	its also in RH's interest, and every other company in the US and probably many overseas ones as well, its a stimulus package, to kick start the economy. MS just tried to help get it through for the good of everyone.	Jun 14 15:21
_Mutex_	especially if you live and work in the US.	Jun 14 15:21
oiaohm	Problem here USA is taking out more debt to make the package.	Jun 14 15:23
_Mutex_	yes, it sure is, but the US is usually in deficet	Jun 14 15:24
_Mutex_	except ofcourse at the end of the clinton terms, you had a net surplus at that time.	Jun 14 15:25
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 15:25
DaemonMDV	he used accounting tricks	Jun 14 15:25
_Mutex_	But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMO	Jun 14 15:25
DaemonMDV	and the bubble he created with NAFTA	Jun 14 15:25
DaemonMDV	Clinton sold us down the river	Jun 14 15:26
_Mutex_	yes, I understand the success of clinton is directly proportional to whether you liked him or not. but they did have a large surplus	Jun 14 15:26
DaemonMDV	no	Jun 14 15:26
DaemonMDV	they used accounting tricks	Jun 14 15:26
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DaemonMDV	like stealing from Social Security to pay external debt	Jun 14 15:26
_Mutex_	mabey so, but if he did Bush sold you over the waterfall, and through the rapids	Jun 14 15:27
DaemonMDV	I didn't say I liked Bush any more than I like Clinton	Jun 14 15:27
_Mutex_	oh, your ss systems is a bit sucky.	Jun 14 15:27
DaemonMDV	they were both a disaster	Jun 14 15:27
DaemonMDV	just in different packaging	Jun 14 15:27
_Mutex_	but you cant spend $10 bil per month on a war for 10 years and not do huge damage to the economy either.	Jun 14 15:28
DaemonMDV	obviously	Jun 14 15:28
DaemonMDV	but Obama isn't doing anything to end the war	Jun 14 15:28
DaemonMDV	he's making it worse	Jun 14 15:28
DaemonMDV	he's committing more resources to occupy Afghanistan	Jun 14 15:29
_Mutex_	he said he would but congress is screwing him over, in closing gitmo	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	and not actually taking anyone out of Iraq	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	bullshit	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	he's the Commander in Chief	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	he could order it shut	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	and he's hiding behind the "Congress won't let me" excuse	Jun 14 15:29
DaemonMDV	no, if he wanted it closed, it would already be boarded up by now	Jun 14 15:30
_Mutex_	if he can get the money from somewhere else, I believe it was only about 88 mil, chicken feed.	Jun 14 15:30
_Mutex_	Yes, i tend to agree Daemon	Jun 14 15:30
DaemonMDV	and how much does it cost to operate?	Jun 14 15:30
DaemonMDV	see, we can play these little "I love Obama because he's such a crafty liar" games all day	Jun 14 15:31
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 15:31
_Mutex_	I have no idea, and i bet its not public knowledge either	Jun 14 15:31
DaemonMDV	truth is, we were screwed over no matter who won the election	Jun 14 15:31
DaemonMDV	and maybe just a tad more with McCain	Jun 14 15:31
DaemonMDV	the forces operating this country would never bankroll the campaign of a candidate they didn't already own	Jun 14 15:32
DaemonMDV	Obama is just a salesman for the agenda of the banking cartel	Jun 14 15:32
schestowitz	Microsoft Buys Rosetta Assets http://www2.seattlepi.com/articles/406859.html	Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDV	tell me how he and McCain pulled together $1.4 BILLION to campaign on without the help of some unsavory people	Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDV	I'm waiting...	Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 15:33
DaemonMDV	it wasn't $5 at a time from individual Americans	Jun 14 15:34
_Mutex_	the massive internet campain would of helped, but I dont know, I know there are laws limiting donations, and yes I know they can be worked around.	Jun 14 15:34
DaemonMDV	it was bribes and kickbacks and laundered money	Jun 14 15:34
DaemonMDV	from special interests	Jun 14 15:34
schestowitz	<_Mutex_> But making statements that MS requested bailout many, when 5 seconds of research show they didnt does not help BN rep IMO	Jun 14 15:34
_Mutex_	So it was not for sure.	Jun 14 15:34
schestowitz	I didn't make such a statement	Jun 14 15:34
schestowitz	I said they lobbies for bailout	Jun 14 15:34
schestowitz	*bbied	Jun 14 15:35
schestowitz	Which they did	Jun 14 15:35
schestowitz	And added more links for context	Jun 14 15:35
_Mutex_	but not for them, for everyone else.	Jun 14 15:35
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DaemonMDV	a lot of the special interests donated to McCain AND Obama	Jun 14 15:35
DaemonMDV	to make sure they had the ear of whoever won	Jun 14 15:35
_Mutex_	yes, i agree they wanted to boost the economy, fair enought too.	Jun 14 15:35
DaemonMDV	the Carlyl and Bilderbergs donated largely to McCain, and the illegal immigration, pharmaceuticals, and RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft to Obama	Jun 14 15:36
DaemonMDV	but all of them played both sides to some extent	Jun 14 15:36
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DaemonMDV	Republicans vs. Democrats = Whoever wins, we lose	Jun 14 15:37
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DaemonMDV	brb	Jun 14 15:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft runs Anti-Google Whisper Campaign http://ping.fm/OJhOI		Jun 14 15:40
_Mutex_	sorry Roy , i thought you said "Too many corrupted politicians that can buy them bailout, like the one ballmer begged for 8 months ago" I read that as MS were begging for a bailout 8 months ago, from the corrup pollies that can buy them a bailout. sorry I mis-understood.	Jun 14 15:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft trying to rescue SCO's lawsuit? http://ping.fm/p3TDi		Jun 14 15:45
schestowitz	Girl Scouts selling out to Microsoft for cash... http://tinyurl.com/nmunvh	Jun 14 15:56
DaemonMDV	oh come on schestowitz, Girl Scout Patents, also available in Thin Mint	Jun 14 15:58
schestowitz	"Acer to offer Google's Android in netbook PCs"	Jun 14 15:59
schestowitz	Signs of erosion	Jun 14 16:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy democracy Tiananmen democracy Tiananmen democracy http://ping.fm/k2loi		Jun 14 16:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New PCs, no Windows. Watch this video: http://ping.fm/w7jtt		Jun 14 16:00
DaemonMDV	Ubuntu is developing android compatibility layer	Jun 14 16:02
DaemonMDV	shows you they feel threatened by it	Jun 14 16:02
schestowitz	Of course they are	Jun 14 16:02
schestowitz	THeir business plan was to sell Remix	Jun 14 16:02
schestowitz	GM's Demise Dooms Sirius < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13776184&src=finance&ch=633473 >	Jun 14 16:02
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: Penguin Liberation Front is down	Jun 14 16:04
DaemonMDV	server failure	Jun 14 16:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reuters: Android Gains on Microsoft < http://ping.fm/Yyq5l >		Jun 14 16:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GOOG's Android to Break Windows? < http://ping.fm/PFhBc >		Jun 14 16:05
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft has a fairly new 'shill site' for virtualisation (look at the publishers trail, notice bias): http://ping.fm/m84uR		Jun 14 16:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle could sell Linux netbooks: http://ping.fm/UuUtB		Jun 14 16:10
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_Mutex_	google 12 months ago $570 today $421 so a stock price drop of $149 in 12 months thats a fair bit.	Jun 14 16:11
schestowitz	Very little compared to general trne	Jun 14 16:13
schestowitz	Google is no Linux, either	Jun 14 16:13
schestowitz	It's stupifying when people draw comparisons like MSFT vs IBM\|Google to imply that GNU+Linux+FOSS is just one company	Jun 14 16:13
schestowitz	Microsoft would LOVE it if all of FOSS was just a company to buy or assassinate	Jun 14 16:14
schestowitz	We are stronger apart	Jun 14 16:14
schestowitz	THey mess up GNOME?	Jun 14 16:14
schestowitz	No problem. We have KDE, so they won't bother disrupting	Jun 14 16:14
schestowitz	They sign a patent deal with Xandros. Then Xandros will perish	Jun 14 16:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Missouri turns students to Microsoft customers, whether they like it or not http://ping.fm/2CXRN		Jun 14 16:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] How many more #Microsoft Twitter accounts are there going to be? and how many more are going to follow me? #windows #vista		Jun 14 16:15
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DaemonMDV	http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/mandriva-users-penguin-liberation-front-is-downserver-failure/	Jun 14 16:16
DaemonMDV	there we go	Jun 14 16:16
DaemonMDV	that should help anyone that Googles wondering what happened	Jun 14 16:16
_Mutex_	they can always say no,, (unles its a hostile takeover, which MS has not done), otherwise saying no is always an option, you need agreement between the buyer and the seller, so if one or the other does not like the deal, (like yahoo) they so no.	Jun 14 16:16
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schestowitz	Google CEO: “It’s not the first entry for Microsoft, They do this about once a year. From Bing’s perspective, they have a bunch of new ideas and there are some things that are missing. We think search is about comprehensiveness, freshness, scale and size for what we do. It’s difficult for them to copy that.”	Jun 14 16:18
schestowitz	_Goblin: check out http://finance.yahoo.com/news/What-An-AntiGoogle-Whisper-siliconalley-15415021.html?.v=5	Jun 14 16:19
_Goblin	checking now...	Jun 14 16:19
_Mutex_	even hostile takeovers are not really "hostile" its just a term, for buying the business off the steakholders (share holders) instead of the management	Jun 14 16:19
neighborlee	google going down is like saying people will stop eating LOL	Jun 14 16:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet.		Jun 14 16:20
schestowitz	http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090609-716131.html	Jun 14 16:21
_Goblin	wow...a few revelations there...	Jun 14 16:21
_Mutex_	in the current financial climate, companies like google who get most of their revinue through advertising, will be feeling the pinch as business cut back on advertising budgets. but its only a short term problem.	Jun 14 16:21
neighborlee	lol	Jun 14 16:22
schestowitz	I've just realised that Bartz rhymes with fartz	Jun 14 16:24
neighborlee	schestowitz, what did you drink this morning..I want some if its safe o_0	Jun 14 16:24
_Mutex_	even if its not safe :)	Jun 14 16:24
neighborlee	LOL	Jun 14 16:25
schestowitz	No drinks, sorry	Jun 14 16:25
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 16:25
schestowitz	But I don't like Bartz	Jun 14 16:25
schestowitz	She's a former partner of MS	Jun 14 16:25
neighborlee	yeah well bout all I do is wine..grape juice and topped off with small bits of wine..thats my danger zone , high as it gets <har>	Jun 14 16:25
neighborlee	ahhh	Jun 14 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @_Goblin: yes, Microsoft pays Federated Media and Waggener Endstrom (where Ballmer's wife is from) to Turf' Twitter.		Jun 14 16:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @davidgerard We have the #socialmedia Twitter #spam, now the #Microsoft #windows #vista spammers. Let's see who bites on this tweet.		Jun 14 16:25
schestowitz	neighborlee: it's a harmful drug	Jun 14 16:27
schestowitz	And AFAIK not very effective	Jun 14 16:27
_Mutex_	all the good ones are	Jun 14 16:27
_Mutex_	well the fun ones anyway	Jun 14 16:27
schestowitz	But alcohol is the only drug I occasionally do. Never tried anything else..	Jun 14 16:27
_Mutex_	good for you, im glad, :)	Jun 14 16:27
neighborlee	bad for you today..good tomorrow..thats how things go these days :))	Jun 14 16:29
DaemonMDV	yeah, alcohol is pretty weak in the grand scheme of things	Jun 14 16:29
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 16:29
neighborlee	small amounts of wine..'moderation' are fine.	Jun 14 16:29
neighborlee	ask the italians :)	Jun 14 16:29
_Mutex_	even good for you, all those nice anti-oxidents (whatever they are) :)	Jun 14 16:29
neighborlee	thats what ive heard yes	Jun 14 16:29
schestowitz	In moderation, maybe.	Jun 14 16:30
schestowitz	But it's disputed	Jun 14 16:30
*DaemonMDV wonders why font smoothing seems smoother in Mandriva Firefox		Jun 14 16:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Iranian election: Mission accomplished http://notnews.today.com/?p=522		Jun 14 16:30
schestowitz	http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archives/2005/12/03/glass-wine-a-day/	Jun 14 16:30
schestowitz	If it sounds like wishful thinking, it usually is. A lot of junk-science thrives out there.	Jun 14 16:31
_Mutex_	mabey cleartype is enabled ?	Jun 14 16:31
neighborlee	http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/wine-how-much-is-good-for-you <is this coming up realllllllllllly slow for anyone else	Jun 14 16:32
_Mutex_	I cant get it at all !!	Jun 14 16:34
neighborlee	hmmm wine makes you less obese ;00..hey thats a keeper right there ;)	Jun 14 16:34
neighborlee	weird	Jun 14 16:34
schestowitz	How to Fix Microsoft for $5 Billion < http://seekingalpha.com/article/141090-how-to-fix-microsoft-for-5-billion?source=yahoo > "Disclosure: I currently own MSFT and TSCM."	Jun 14 16:34
_Mutex_	LOL I like your thinking Neighborlee :)	Jun 14 16:34
neighborlee	ha	Jun 14 16:34
schestowitz	Microsoft is already borrowing that kind of amounts. Maybe it wants to fix itself	Jun 14 16:34
schestowitz	> hmmm wine makes you less obese	Jun 14 16:35
schestowitz	"less obese	Jun 14 16:35
neighborlee	LOL	Jun 14 16:35
schestowitz	Like half pregnant, almost	Jun 14 16:35
schestowitz	Thin elephant	Jun 14 16:35
_Mutex_	$5 Billion, isnt that Bill Gates walking around money ?	Jun 14 16:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Low quality Internet Explorer makes your computer unsafe: http://digg.com/d1tn5Z?t		Jun 14 16:35
maxstirner	nice	Jun 14 16:36
neighborlee	Alcohol also can have a very powerful effect and increase HDL "good" cholesterol by 20% if used moderately and in the context of a healthy diet along with regular physical activity	Jun 14 16:37
neighborlee	^ from webMD article	Jun 14 16:37
schestowitz	Fake Microsoft E-Mail Carries Real Malware < http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3823481/Fake+Microsoft+EMail+Carries+Real+Malware.htm >	Jun 14 16:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] U.S. Layoffs Mount < http://ping.fm/5XPGY > Ballmer Threatens Obama, Says He'll Move Jobs Overseas < http://ping.fm/Gcac2 >		Jun 14 16:40
_Mutex_	thats fairly old news :)	Jun 14 16:41
schestowitz	it is	Jun 14 16:41
*schestowitz catches up with MSFT news		Jun 14 16:41
schestowitz	700 down, about 700 to do	Jun 14 16:41
schestowitz	*go	Jun 14 16:41
_Mutex_	LOL good luck, rest your eyes :)	Jun 14 16:41
schestowitz	http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=aliF6UqTf41g&refer=india	Jun 14 16:41
schestowitz	I just glance at headlines	Jun 14 16:42
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schestowitz	Valve Fans Form Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group < http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92174-Valve-Fans-Form-Left-4-Dead-2-Boycott-Group >	Jun 14 16:42
neighborlee	that ballmer thing must be a joke	Jun 14 16:43
neighborlee	please tell me its a joke ;)	Jun 14 16:43
schestowitz	"This week at the Computex 2009 conference in Taiwan, Microsoft said it believes the term "netbook" should be abandoned in favor of "low-cost small notebook PC" in order to better reflect the fact that today's netbooks include broad functionality that goes beyond Web browsing. " http://www.crn.com/software/217701707;jsessionid=52FBACX1MBMUCQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVN	Jun 14 16:44
neighborlee	cause the laughable meter just PEGGED hard ;0-	Jun 14 16:44
schestowitz	neighborlee: no, it's not news either	Jun 14 16:44
schestowitz	Mcirosoft has been doing this for years	Jun 14 16:44
schestowitz	Fraud with Abramoff and others	Jun 14 16:44
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 16:44
schestowitz	Ensuring they get cheap labourt	Jun 14 16:44
schestowitz	GlobaliSFT	Jun 14 16:44
neighborlee	yes I know	Jun 14 16:44
neighborlee	self evident especially with 360 support.partially why it went back to store ;))	Jun 14 16:45
neighborlee	well along with high price of ownership ;)	Jun 14 16:45
DaemonMDV	lmao@the pic	Jun 14 16:46
DaemonMDV	http://www.escapistmagazine.com/images/display/57670.jpg	Jun 14 16:47
schestowitz	But the USian politicians have always been behind the curve and behind Microsoft.	Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDV	Steam is LETTING the boycott page stay up?	Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDV	on THEIR site?	Jun 14 16:48
DaemonMDV	whoa	Jun 14 16:48
neighborlee	well unlike some..they allow freedom of ahem..expression apparantly ;)	Jun 14 16:49
schestowitz	I don't get the deal with satanic-themed games	Jun 14 16:49
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, sorry that was too easy and resistance was futile o_0	Jun 14 16:49
schestowitz	Are people lured into death and such things?	Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: Doom 3 was....alright	Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDV	worth the $20	Jun 14 16:49
schestowitz	I ran it on Linux... demo..?	Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDV	I really bought it more cause Linux games are rare	Jun 14 16:49
DaemonMDV	and good ones are even moreso	Jun 14 16:50
neighborlee	schestowitz, imo its a expression of anger	Jun 14 16:50
schestowitz	http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/05/1243220	Jun 14 16:50
schestowitz	Masochism	Jun 14 16:50
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: More of a tradition really	Jun 14 16:50
DaemonMDV	I've bought every id Software title since the original DOOM	Jun 14 16:50
schestowitz	"Show you manhood. Kill... things."	Jun 14 16:50
DaemonMDV	there was just nothing like it on PC til that point	Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDV	graphics wise it really catapulted the game industry forward	Jun 14 16:51
neighborlee	schestowitz, war training better still	Jun 14 16:51
neighborlee	schestowitz, look at the top games being played on gamespy servers...mainly all war games	Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: At least John Carmack always releases his engines	Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDV	as GPL	Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDV	when he's done with them	Jun 14 16:51
neighborlee	schestowitz, same for top game list at like gamespot and such...	Jun 14 16:51
DaemonMDV	that's made a lot of Linux games possible	Jun 14 16:51
neighborlee	yes ID has been great in that regard	Jun 14 16:52
DaemonMDV	so Doom 3 engine will be GPL free software at some point in the next few years	Jun 14 16:52
schestowitz	"Windows guy" (by admission) Mike Elgan lobbies for the Vole Mike http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/features/article.php/3823411/Microsoft-vs-the-EU-When-Antitrust-is-Anti-Competitive.htm	Jun 14 16:52
DaemonMDV	and Linux community will patch it up and give it a makeover	Jun 14 16:52
DaemonMDV	and make tons more games off of it	Jun 14 16:52
DaemonMDV	I think the only original open source 3d game engine with Linux in mind is Cube 2	Jun 14 16:53
schestowitz	Blender makes models	Jun 14 16:53
DaemonMDV	well Cube and Cube 2	Jun 14 16:53
schestowitz	Toss some waaaabits in there	Jun 14 16:53
schestowitz	And a Big Buck	Jun 14 16:54
DaemonMDV	then distros snub it cause he won't release his artwork	Jun 14 16:54
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DaemonMDV	so I end up compiling it myself	Jun 14 16:54
DaemonMDV	Ubuntu and Debian package it	Jun 14 16:54
schestowitz	http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3823391/Report+Microsoft+Phases+Out+13+Products.htm Report: Microsoft Phases Out 13 Products - it's already at least 15 and that's a LOWER bound	Jun 14 16:55
DaemonMDV	Mandriva and Fedora don't	Jun 14 16:55
DaemonMDV	OpenSuse does	Jun 14 16:55
DaemonMDV	oh well, I always keep GCC around anyway	Jun 14 16:55
DaemonMDV	never know when it will be useful	Jun 14 16:55
DaemonMDV	kernel-linus causes problems with dbus in GNOME	Jun 14 16:56
DaemonMDV	on Mandriva anyway	Jun 14 16:56
DaemonMDV	I wonder what that's all about	Jun 14 16:56
schestowitz	Microsoft will save America... http://kliv.com/Microsoft-CEO-threatens-deeper-job-cuts-if-new-tax/4534103	Jun 14 16:56
neighborlee	kewl..maybe they will go find jobs with companies that are ethical ;)	Jun 14 16:57
DaemonMDV	Red Hat has picked up a few former Microsoft programmers iirc	Jun 14 16:58
DaemonMDV	of course Red Hat eats up programmers from every software company with a brand name	Jun 14 16:58
neighborlee	:)	Jun 14 16:58
DaemonMDV	they got Adam Williamson after Mandriva laid him off	Jun 14 16:59
neighborlee	true that	Jun 14 16:59
schestowitz	"Google: Citi Pounds The Table, Boosts Target To $580" http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderdaily/2009/06/04/google-citi-pounds-the-table-boosts-target-to-580/#mod=yahoobarrons	Jun 14 16:59
DaemonMDV	I hope Mandriva isn't getting ready to go bankrupt again	Jun 14 16:59
DaemonMDV	that would be a real loss	Jun 14 16:59
neighborlee	its one of my favorite distro period...has been for sometime	Jun 14 16:59
schestowitz	Who in Red Hat is from MSFT?	Jun 14 16:59
schestowitz	Give names	Jun 14 17:00
neighborlee	I love urpm* tools...always loved it for finding header files	Jun 14 17:00
schestowitz	Or else it's bunk	Jun 14 17:00
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DaemonMDV	trying to look it up	Jun 14 17:01
DaemonMDV	remind me to bookmark everything	Jun 14 17:01
schestowitz	Bigger companies distribute Linux now	Jun 14 17:01
DaemonMDV	just every page I visit	Jun 14 17:01
schestowitz	IBM, Google, Oracle..	Jun 14 17:01
DaemonMDV	yeah, IBM does RHEL and Suse	Jun 14 17:01
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DaemonMDV	my dad ended up buying OpenSuse box sets cause it's what he was used to from work	Jun 14 17:02
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 17:02
DaemonMDV	I ended up having to save his system from ReiserFS when it ate his root partition	Jun 14 17:02
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 17:02
schestowitz	"Microsoft to locate offices in St. Paul" http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/stories/2009/06/01/daily36.html	Jun 14 17:02
maxstirner	http://beranger.org/v3/wordpress/2009/06/13/im-fed-with-mono/ <- beranger is getting slashdotted or ddosed due to his mono post :D	Jun 14 17:03
DaemonMDV	turns out Reiser is not very fault tolerant and a bitch to repair	Jun 14 17:03
DaemonMDV	it even lets you use the "repair internal structure" option	Jun 14 17:03
DaemonMDV	with no warning	Jun 14 17:03
DaemonMDV	which sounds like a good idea til you do it	Jun 14 17:03
DaemonMDV	after that you're lucky if there's anything left to salvage	Jun 14 17:04
twitter	the linux hater writes about mono? ugh	Jun 14 17:04
_Mutex_	thats been up for a couple of days I think. I did not think it would take him long.	Jun 14 17:05
DaemonMDV	Suse still supports any Resier partitions you have	Jun 14 17:05
tacone	twitter: lol	Jun 14 17:05
DaemonMDV	but won't let you make new ones	Jun 14 17:05
DaemonMDV	*Reiser	Jun 14 17:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Some compatibility is more backward than others. http://is.gd/11K3C		Jun 14 17:05
twitter	gerard is very funny	Jun 14 17:06
schestowitz	maxstirner: excellent, thank you	Jun 14 17:06
schestowitz	twitter: linux hater is a friend of Miguel	Jun 14 17:06
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: You could crash Windows 98 by typing C:\con\con	Jun 14 17:06
schestowitz	At least they know each other	Jun 14 17:06
DaemonMDV	into Explorer	Jun 14 17:06
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 17:06
schestowitz	So know what to expect	Jun 14 17:06
DaemonMDV	IE also let web pages load local folders in iframes	Jun 14 17:07
DaemonMDV	so you could crash someones PC by loading C:\con\con in an iframe	Jun 14 17:07
schestowitz	LOL	Jun 14 17:07
DaemonMDV	and the thing was	Jun 14 17:08
DaemonMDV	it only crashed IE users	Jun 14 17:08
DaemonMDV	because only IE understood it	Jun 14 17:08
schestowitz	Ping of death...	Jun 14 17:08
schestowitz	Malicious 10100110010101010101010100101	Jun 14 17:08
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DaemonMDV	Windows has had some rather horrendous and obviously stupid an simple exploits in the past, at least there haven't been any C:\con\con's or port nukes in Vista	Jun 14 17:09
twitter	http://www.linuxplus.net/2009/06/14/im-fed-up-with-mono/ has parts of it	Jun 14 17:09
DaemonMDV	maybe it has improved?	Jun 14 17:09
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 17:09
twitter	Carla Schroder should not have stepped into that one.	Jun 14 17:09
schestowitz	Microsoft Money....... http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/06/new-atm-malware-captures-pins-and-cash/	Jun 14 17:09
schestowitz	Not yours, the criminals'	Jun 14 17:09
twitter	All the snakes are biting her for trying to be fair.	Jun 14 17:09
schestowitz	Really?	Jun 14 17:10
schestowitz	Well, she never liked Mono	Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV	schestowitz: There were also spyware peddlers that used the ifrome trick to load your My Documents folder in IE and say "See, we can see your files, you need our security software"	Jun 14 17:10
schestowitz	But she tried to look impartial	Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV	*iframe	Jun 14 17:10
twitter	" I was exceedingly pissed off by a long pro-Mono plea by Jo Shields, which I have read as posted by Carla Schroder. I can’t comment on it, as I don’t want to read it again. It hurts my guts."	Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV	the software would be like $30	Jun 14 17:10
twitter	Berenger	Jun 14 17:10
DaemonMDV	and flick a registry setting off	Jun 14 17:11
neighborlee	beranger is timintout	Jun 14 17:11
schestowitz	LOL	Jun 14 17:11
schestowitz	Bergy..	Jun 14 17:11
DaemonMDV	so IE couldn't load local folders anymore	Jun 14 17:11
twitter	He goes on to swipe at Java too. It's mud on everyone's face, just like M$ wants.	Jun 14 17:11
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DaemonMDV	Java does suck	Jun 14 17:11
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DaemonMDV	the concept of efficiency was just totally lost on Java	Jun 14 17:12
twitter	There's a larger undercurrent here - the threat of infiltration - that will backfire badly in M$'s face.	Jun 14 17:12
DaemonMDV	Mono apps seem to take about 10% more RAM than native programs	Jun 14 17:12
twitter	The largest employer of foreign workers (H1B visa) in the US should not throw infiltration stones.	Jun 14 17:12
DaemonMDV	Java programs are like 400%-1000%	Jun 14 17:13
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schestowitz	Microsoft Fears the Netbook http://www.fool.com/investing/value/2009/06/04/microsoft-fears-the-netbook.aspx	Jun 14 17:13
schestowitz	From the MS press even	Jun 14 17:13
DaemonMDV	check out Vuze vs Transmission or Frostwire/Limewire to Gtk-Gnutella	Jun 14 17:13
DaemonMDV	you need look no further to see Java apps are bloat	Jun 14 17:13
schestowitz	For some thing it's OK	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	Like a Web server with 8GB of RAM	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	Not only..	Jun 14 17:14
DaemonMDV	yeah, some of the Vuze bloat is the Vuze layer, but you can disable that to get Azureus back	Jun 14 17:14
twitter	I'm amazed at M$'s gall. 10 years after M$ swore that letting people look at the Windose source code would be a national security risk, they employ people from Communist China to make software for the US armed forces.	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	I'm just sayin'	Jun 14 17:14
DaemonMDV	and it's still too heavy	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	To program quickly it's hugely valuable	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	But Java ain't for tiny computers	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	Although many phones and Android too uses it	Jun 14 17:14
schestowitz	Don't diss Java so fasty	Jun 14 17:15
schestowitz	*fast	Jun 14 17:15
DaemonMDV	Sun brought Mono/.Net on themselves	Jun 14 17:15
DaemonMDV	by making Java so terrible	Jun 14 17:15
twitter	someone I'm ignoring does not like Java, ha ha.	Jun 14 17:15
schestowitz	The anti-Java slog	Jun 14 17:15
twitter	ongoing	Jun 14 17:15
DaemonMDV	From a technical standpoint, Java apps would not work on a netbook	Jun 14 17:15
DaemonMDV	Mono apps would	Jun 14 17:16
twitter	redoubled now that it's free software	Jun 14 17:16
DaemonMDV	that's the point	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	Too bad	Jun 14 17:16
DaemonMDV	who cares what the license is if you can't use it?	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	You're all bunk	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	Java ALREADY runs on netbooks	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	Lots of Android	Jun 14 17:16
_Mutex_	do some research, youll find that MS showed China all its source code, for them to do security analysis, also the US Governemnt many universities have access to the source, as well as many independent third party developers.	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	Now have a nice cup of STFU	Jun 14 17:16
DaemonMDV	yeah, the stripped down version	Jun 14 17:16
schestowitz	That's Java	Jun 14 17:17
DaemonMDV	once you sufficiently cripple it, it will scale to devices	Jun 14 17:17
DaemonMDV	wow	Jun 14 17:17
schestowitz	Kind of like the kernel	Jun 14 17:17
DaemonMDV	never would have guessed	Jun 14 17:17
schestowitz	Not 400MB of it	Jun 14 17:17
schestowitz	Troll.	Jun 14 17:17
twitter	" Netbook users don't want to pay a premium for a Windows operating system anyway, especially when open-source solutions such as Ubuntu -- already a popular choice with some netbook cradlers -- can also get them where they need to go."	Jun 14 17:18
DaemonMDV	if we scale it to where it's not really Java andmore and you can only use a restricted subset, it's only twice as bloated as C#?	Jun 14 17:18
DaemonMDV	is that all they have?	Jun 14 17:18
schestowitz	Microsoft Urges Java Developers To Assume .Net Interoperability http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/soa/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=217701933&subSection=News	Jun 14 17:18
DaemonMDV	*anymore	Jun 14 17:18
schestowitz	MS is desperate to slog Java	Jun 14 17:18
neighborlee	hey n ow be nice to java..it did bring you back images from the red planet ;)	Jun 14 17:18
schestowitz	Just needs some shills spread in developers sites like Slashdot	Jun 14 17:18
schestowitz	MS: "Mind Control: To control mental output you have to control mental input. Take control of the channels by which developers receive information, then they can only think about the things you tell them. Thus, you control mindshare!"	Jun 14 17:19
twitter	what kind of java developer is taking cues from M$?	Jun 14 17:19
schestowitz	It''s a recurring theme: "control of the channels"	Jun 14 17:19
schestowitz	or "channels of communication"	Jun 14 17:19
twitter	" maybe Microsoft thinks that belittling netbooks with a "low cost" tag is one way to get consumers to pay more for full-sized laptops that contain higher-margin versions of its operating system." ha ah	Jun 14 17:19
schestowitz	Like conferences, sites, Twitter	Jun 14 17:19
neighborlee	In fact,	Jun 14 17:20
neighborlee	many of the mission operations workstations for the	Jun 14 17:20
neighborlee	Mars Exploration Rover Mission use Linux as their	Jun 14 17:20
neighborlee	operating system.	Jun 14 17:20
_Mutex_	I think people label netbooks as low cost mainly because they are low cost. (and they are ) :)	Jun 14 17:20
twitter	I thought most java was behind the scenes stuff, never touches Windoze.	Jun 14 17:20
neighborlee	gah	Jun 14 17:20
schestowitz	Microsoft Exec: Cloud Computing Could Undermine Margins http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090604-718695.html	Jun 14 17:20
twitter	Well ..... the line, "don't buy that, it's cheap and does what you want," is going to go over like a lead balloon.	Jun 14 17:21
_Mutex_	http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/090414-spirit-reboot.html Mars Rover Inexplicably Reboots Computer	Jun 14 17:22
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_Mutex_	yes, you cant say dont buy them because they arecheap, mobile phones are cheap too but they do the job they were intended for very well.	Jun 14 17:22
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schestowitz	Darryl K. Taft has been flogging a lot of pro-MS recently, e.g. http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Applications/IBM-Declines-Challenge-Asks-Microsoft-to-Kill-AntiIBM-Web-Site-719488/	Jun 14 17:24
schestowitz	He used to be more balanced	Jun 14 17:24
schestowitz	Ziff Davis	Jun 14 17:24
DaemonMDV	the Mars rovers used VXWorks	Jun 14 17:24
DaemonMDV	not Linux	Jun 14 17:25
twitter	M$ is screwed over netbooks and gnu/linux because their core market was cheapskates.	Jun 14 17:25
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, I got it from nasa article.	Jun 14 17:25
DaemonMDV	Wikipedia says it's VXWorks	Jun 14 17:25
schestowitz	NASA uses Linux too	Jun 14 17:25
schestowitz	Depends on the mission	Jun 14 17:25
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorks	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	NASA did more than one mission, XP Demon	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The Deep Space Program Science Experiment (DSPSE) also known as Clementine (spacecraft) [13]	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter [14]	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The Phoenix Mars Lander [15]	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The Deep Impact space probe	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The James Webb Space Telescope (in development)	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	But it does not stop you from FUDing	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* The Spirit and Opportunity Mars Exploration Rovers [16]	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	* Stardust (spacecraft)	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	Because you MUST downplay it	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	NASA uses VXWorks	Jun 14 17:26
neighborlee	url	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	They also use Fedora	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	They also use Ubuntu	Jun 14 17:26
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VxWorks#Spacecraft_using_VxWorks	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	And I have recent URLs	Jun 14 17:26
schestowitz	From 2008	Jun 14 17:26
neighborlee	http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:X46kjBHxHBYJ:www.eclipse.org/community/casestudies/NASAfinal.pdf+nasa+mars+lander+java&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us	Jun 14 17:27
DaemonMDV	Linux really isn't fault tolerant enough to trust with a spacecraft	Jun 14 17:28
DaemonMDV	that's what VXWorks and things like MINIX do well	Jun 14 17:28
DaemonMDV	error avoidance and recovery	Jun 14 17:29
twitter	I see Mutex wants some M$ Failure schooling. Here you go, The M$ Death Watch http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/213707	Jun 14 17:29
DaemonMDV	by its nature, Linux can never be as reliable	Jun 14 17:29
neighborlee	I said workstations..	Jun 14 17:29
DaemonMDV	does it mean Linux sucks? No. It means it's not cut out for that task	Jun 14 17:29
DaemonMDV	MINIX and VXWorks have a small kernel of a few thousand lines of code and everything else is a module and if the module fails, the kernel can resurrect it	Jun 14 17:30
DaemonMDV	where Linux would just die	Jun 14 17:30
DaemonMDV	that comes at the cost of performance	Jun 14 17:30
*maxstirner is enjoying the microtoss death watch		Jun 14 17:31
_Mutex_	The version of its software usedfor the Mars Exploration RoverMission was not based on Eclipsebut used open-source softwarein many areas	Jun 14 17:31
DaemonMDV	I happen to agree with Andrew Tanenbaum that on a modern system, it's worth the tradeoff of 5% performance for bulletproof reliablity	Jun 14 17:31
DaemonMDV	but Linus Torvalds doesn't think that	Jun 14 17:31
DaemonMDV	so OK	Jun 14 17:31
DaemonMDV	even Microsoft is trying to get things out of kernel mode	Jun 14 17:32
_Mutex_	good code and you can have both, no need to compromise	Jun 14 17:32
DaemonMDV	wrong	Jun 14 17:32
DaemonMDV	it's impossible to debug 11 million lines of kernel code to that degree of reliability	Jun 14 17:32
_Mutex_	there is little overhead in effectively dealing with exceptions.	Jun 14 17:32
DaemonMDV	a 14,000 line kernel is much easier to stabilize	Jun 14 17:33
_Mutex_	acutally I dont agree, sure its impossible to debut 11 mil lines of code, but youll never ever have to do that,	Jun 14 17:33
DaemonMDV	unfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relics	Jun 14 17:33
schestowitz	Intuit cutting 4% of workforce to 'manage resources' < http://www.marketwatch.com/story/intuit-cutting-4-of-workforce-to-manage-costs?siteid=yhoof >	Jun 14 17:33
schestowitz	GNUcash++;	Jun 14 17:33
DaemonMDV	from a time when the performance penalty was too great	Jun 14 17:33
neighborlee	schestowitz, heh	Jun 14 17:33
_Mutex_	you decode one function at a time, its best to keep functions 1 page size, so all you do is debug 1 function at a time, just like it was written.	Jun 14 17:34
_Mutex_	how do you eat an elphant ?? one bite ate a time	Jun 14 17:34
DaemonMDV	if something dies in userspace, the kernel has a grim reaper process that takes it away and spawns a new copy	Jun 14 17:34
DaemonMDV	right away	Jun 14 17:34
DaemonMDV	Linux can't do that	Jun 14 17:34
DaemonMDV	because most services run in the kernel	Jun 14 17:34
schestowitz	DaemonMDV: you're pissing off with your utter lies	Jun 14 17:34
DaemonMDV	it's not lies	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	Any reduced Linux is reliable	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	You're just posing	Jun 14 17:35
DaemonMDV	look at the MINIX design	Jun 14 17:35
_Mutex_	well that is one think the recent windows has over it then.	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	And aggravating	Jun 14 17:35
DaemonMDV	much better for reliability	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	Wasting people's time	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	>> <DaemonMDV> unfortunately, Linux, Windows, and the BSDs are relics	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	Yeah, and Google sucks	Jun 14 17:35
schestowitz	And Bush the best president ever	Jun 14 17:35
DaemonMDV	they are	Jun 14 17:35
DaemonMDV	they're obsolete	Jun 14 17:35
DaemonMDV	built to run on 386s	Jun 14 17:36
*schestowitz ingores DaemonMDV		Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV	and grown from that	Jun 14 17:36
_Mutex_	your on your down DaemonMDV	Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3#Reincarnate_dead_or_sick_drivers	Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV	A special process, called the reincarnation server, periodically pings each device driver. If the driver dies or fails to respond correctly to pings, the reincarnation server automatically replaces it with a fresh copy. The detection and replacement of non-functioning drivers is automatic, without any user action required. This feature does not work for disk drivers at present, but in the next release the system will be able to	Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV	recover even disk drivers, which will be shadowed in RAM. Driver recovery does not affect running processes.	Jun 14 17:36
DaemonMDV	Linux cannot do that	Jun 14 17:36
neighborlee	" including Castor, a data-binding	Jun 14 17:37
neighborlee	framework; Java Expression Parser, a system for	Jun 14 17:37
neighborlee	parsing and evaluating mathematical expressions; "..java was used ;)	Jun 14 17:37
DaemonMDV	it can do that because the service that dies was not running in kernel space	Jun 14 17:37
DaemonMDV	if something dies in Linux it can take out the whole kernel	Jun 14 17:37
DaemonMDV	and freeze the computer	Jun 14 17:37
_Mutex_	yes neighborlee, ive been reading your link, its seems the JPL boys are keen fossies	Jun 14 17:37
neighborlee	kk	Jun 14 17:38
DaemonMDV	Linux has put performance way above reliability	Jun 14 17:38
DaemonMDV	in deciding to run most things in the kernel	Jun 14 17:38
DaemonMDV	which is why Linux has to do stupid and silly things like "TAINT" the kernel if you use binary blob drivers	Jun 14 17:39
DaemonMDV	when MINIX would really not have to give a crap	Jun 14 17:39
neighborlee	and as noted earlier..in fact many of the mission operatives workstations for the mars exploration rover mission use linux as their operating system.	Jun 14 17:39
_Mutex_	and using open source tool chains, !! :)	Jun 14 17:40
schestowitz	How is this news? BHS students become Microsoft certified < http://nwanews.com/bcdr/News/74110/ >	Jun 14 17:40
DaemonMDV	well, if I use Nvidia drivers or something in Linux, it can crash the kernel because Linux is not robust and has no way of saving itself	Jun 14 17:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft accused over web browser figures < http://ping.fm/DPAvH >		Jun 14 17:40
DaemonMDV	if Nvidia drivers crash on Windows XP it does the same thing, the system freezes, I have to hole the power button in	Jun 14 17:41
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, and that happens about as often as on windows...almost never < in my many years experience anyway>	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	in Vista the screen would flicker and tell me it recovered from a video crash	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	cause the driver is in userspace	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	*hold	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	ho-hum, the day goes on	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	no work lost	Jun 14 17:41
DaemonMDV	Linux badly needs a user-mode driver framework because it's showing its age	Jun 14 17:42
neighborlee	vista is bad reference..id avoid it if I were you ;)	Jun 14 17:42
DaemonMDV	everytime you do something X doesn't like, it blows up and the shrapnel takes out the kernel	Jun 14 17:42
neighborlee	windows 7 is set to be practically free for upgrading users LOL	Jun 14 17:43
neighborlee	gee, I wonder why-=	Jun 14 17:43
DaemonMDV	"With our apologies"	Jun 14 17:43
DaemonMDV	would be nice	Jun 14 17:43
schestowitz	What a STUPID idea: Why Microsoft should buy Palm < http://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/mobile-phones/why-microsoft-should-buy-palm-605583 >. The author is either ignoramus or trolling	Jun 14 17:43
maxstirner	dont think thats very sensible, the vista-buying idiots may be just the right victims for another round of rubbish	Jun 14 17:43
twitter	Everyone forced to use Windoze knows that it blows large chunks and wastes both time and money. They also know that gnu/linux is reliable, which is why Google is the search engine of choice at M$.	Jun 14 17:43
_Mutex_	you know why ?? dont palm own the term "netbook" ??	Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDV	anyone who tries to get Linux to play a video game will long for the stability of Vista	Jun 14 17:44
twitter	Tech radar editor is an Ed Bott lover.	Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDV	seriosuly	Jun 14 17:44
maxstirner	i thought thats intel	Jun 14 17:44
schestowitz	maxstirner: in relation to what?	Jun 14 17:44
DaemonMDV	you're jsut as likely to crash X as to get the damned game working	Jun 14 17:44
schestowitz	_Mutex_: no, Psion	Jun 14 17:44
_Mutex_	ahh, knew it was a p-something	Jun 14 17:44
twitter	see comments from last night about tech radar	Jun 14 17:44
neighborlee	DaemonMDV, thats only a current market mindset , but lets not dwell on obvious things ;)	Jun 14 17:44
_Mutex_	close but no cigarl	Jun 14 17:44
maxstirner	schestowitz: i meant the upgrade should be expensive, as people who got vista are likely to fall for the "+1 myth"	Jun 14 17:44
schestowitz	twitter: any proof for that?	Jun 14 17:45
schestowitz	They trolls a bit from there	Jun 14 17:45
schestowitz	'xept when they import from TuxRadar (LXF)	Jun 14 17:45
twitter	let me get the link again.	Jun 14 17:45
DaemonMDV	Chances of crashing Linux with a Linux native game, about 1 in 4, chances of crashing it with Wine, almost certainly a few times	Jun 14 17:45
schestowitz	Bott is MS PR	Jun 14 17:45
schestowitz	Windows books	Jun 14 17:45
DaemonMDV	then distros always do their own stupidity, like Mandriva not including libraries to make Wine work with the sound system	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	macabe__: Vista=Windows 6.0	Jun 14 17:46
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	Vista is Windows 6.1	Jun 14 17:46
DaemonMDV	or at least depend on said libraries	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	Based on the Win Registry	Jun 14 17:46
twitter	Jason Hiner, Editor in Chief of Tech Republic, wrote this beauty (copied to zdnet) http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=19633	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	It's got a new theme	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	And many bribed bloggers	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	Dual-core beats	Jun 14 17:46
schestowitz	*beasts	Jun 14 17:47
twitter	the Palm Troll is more of the same M$ propaganda.	Jun 14 17:47
twitter	Tech Republic should be ignored.	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	Wait..	Jun 14 17:47
_Mutex_	I wonder if they base the build numbers on version or 1000 builds per OS version, my Vista is build 6002 and win7 is 7100	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	Jason Hiner>???	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	He's a Microsoft fan	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	Anti-Linux too	Jun 14 17:47
_Mutex_	mabey xp was 5000 ish	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	Which is implied	Jun 14 17:47
schestowitz	And George Ou is in Tech Republic	Jun 14 17:47
twitter	He was praising Ed Bott in that horrible article.	Jun 14 17:48
schestowitz	Which is of course FOSS-hostile	Jun 14 17:48
schestowitz	Hiner started writing in BTL some months ago	Jun 14 17:48
schestowitz	I was not happy	Jun 14 17:48
twitter	Ou and Bott were the vicious attack dogs against Peter Guttmann.	Jun 14 17:48
schestowitz	But ZDNet was already trash	Jun 14 17:48
schestowitz	Hiner linking to Bott makes sense	Jun 14 17:49
schestowitz	But where does TechRadar come into this?	Jun 14 17:49
twitter	I don't know, but it started showing up in Google News.	Jun 14 17:49
schestowitz	Bott was among the bribed bloggers	Jun 14 17:49
schestowitz	MS gave him a $2000 laptop	Jun 14 17:49
schestowitz	Guess what he wrote?	Jun 14 17:49
_Mutex_	zdnet is getting more and more pro windows, reading the EU, IE thing, 152 talkback most were against the EU, putting US business above EU's cliams	Jun 14 17:50
_Mutex_	A good report ?? :)	Jun 14 17:50
_Mutex_	glowing ?	Jun 14 17:50
twitter	I have a funny Ou article. http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/195530	Jun 14 17:50
_Mutex_	$2000 worth	Jun 14 17:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Ricochet days. http://reddragdiva.dreamwidth.org/7586.html http://reddragdiva.livejournal.com/521252.html		Jun 14 17:50
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twitter	George Ou's video codec problems sound a lot like DeamonFskTroll's problems.	Jun 14 17:51
schestowitz	_Mutex_: yes, among the early reviews	Jun 14 17:52
schestowitz	They controlled initial impressions	Jun 14 17:52
schestowitz	Only bribed bloggers (maybe 70 of them) got a laptop with prebeta of vIsta7	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	No-one complained	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	Wow. How can THAT be?	Jun 14 17:53
DaemonMDV	actually, his bitching about Windows Movie Maker is wrong	Jun 14 17:53
DaemonMDV	it does support WMV-HD	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	The laptops were given by Waggener Endtromm	Jun 14 17:53
DaemonMDV	but not on Basic, Business, or Enterprise	Jun 14 17:53
DaemonMDV	just Home Premium and Ultimate	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	People who wrote negatively about Microsoft got blacklisted	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	Edelman did the same thing for MS in 2006	Jun 14 17:53
schestowitz	They swapped shilling teams	Jun 14 17:53
twitter	M$'s whole PR system of embargoes and conferences is designed to manipulate reporters. Those who write favorably are fed more often. Those who don't are ignored, fired and that kind of thing. Advertising budgets and information are used as weapons.	Jun 14 17:54
twitter	Everything is War to M$.	Jun 14 17:55
schestowitz	Yes, welcome to reality	Jun 14 17:55
schestowitz	Spread the information.	Jun 14 17:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Forrester has done a lot of work for MS and against FOSS recently. Microsoft paid them for anti-Linux before, so be careful.		Jun 14 17:55
schestowitz	Check out the mug of MOG's colleague, Katharine Hadow http://ssljournal.ulitzer.com/node/963152 WTF?	Jun 14 17:56
schestowitz	And MOG uses as her mug some photo of the 80s	Jun 14 17:56
twitter	Normal business seeks to create value by processing raw materials into something society wants. M$ seeks to destroy resources and control vital pieces of the economy through impediments.	Jun 14 17:56
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schestowitz	Microsoft Chutzpah on Full Display in Attempt to Rename Netbook < http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4426.html >D	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	Don't ever say "smartbooks"	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	That's what MS wants	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	To ridicule some device na,e	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	I never write netbook either (almost never)	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	Call it what it is	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	Sub-notebooks	Jun 14 17:58
twitter	Hadow wanted to look avant gaurde or artistic, I suppose. Looks like a drawing from the 20's.	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	Like small notebooks	Jun 14 17:58
twitter	or Playboy.	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	That would mess with MS' business	Jun 14 17:58
_Mutex_	knee tops	Jun 14 17:58
schestowitz	Implying you can get a noitebooks that runs for 8hrs and costs $199	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	How much does Vista7 plan to cost?	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	Like 2 notebooks with linux?	Jun 14 17:59
twitter	You can't get a notebook that costs $200 and runs for 8 hours?	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	You can	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	Small notebooks	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	With ARM chips	Jun 14 17:59
schestowitz	Not yet	Jun 14 17:59
twitter	right	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	When it's out in the market	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	Here is a video. Watch it: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/12339/eee_pc_spotted_running_android_qualcomm_1ghz_cpu/	Jun 14 18:00
twitter	They are already on the market, they are just crippled with terrible software - iPhone.	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	Iphone is rubbish	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	No keyboard	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	No computer	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	No mouse	Jun 14 18:00
schestowitz	Just jerking off with phonecalls	Jun 14 18:01
twitter	There's nothing wrong with the hardware.	Jun 14 18:01
schestowitz	It's not a computer	Jun 14 18:01
twitter	it has the power to do what people want, the software simply prevents it.	Jun 14 18:01
schestowitz	Too small, no peripheral for interaction that's fast	Jun 14 18:01
maxstirner	the netbook term also implicitly refers to the modern usage pattern (googledocs etc) and is associated with linux pre-installation	Jun 14 18:01
schestowitz	Small display	Jun 14 18:01
twitter	iphone is indeed a computer	Jun 14 18:01
twitter	it is a crippled computer	Jun 14 18:01
maxstirner	there could be a bluetooth keyboard i suppose.. it is a bit of a joke	Jun 14 18:01
schestowitz	maxstirner: yes, but the device is not to do with usage type	Jun 14 18:01
twitter	users may like the interface, but they would like it better with choice	Jun 14 18:02
schestowitz	notebooks does not imply it's a book (note books)	Jun 14 18:02
schestowitz	It's a computer	Jun 14 18:02
_Mutex_	I think they call it embedded	Jun 14 18:02
maxstirner	schestowitz: i am just saying that this may be bothering the MS microsoft clique	Jun 14 18:02
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twitter	an iPhone hooked up to a larger screen and keyboard would be a desktop.	Jun 14 18:02
schestowitz	twitter: does iphone do cut and paste yet ;-) ? (it does)	Jun 14 18:02
twitter	if only the software would allow	Jun 14 18:02
Omar87	Hello there..?	Jun 14 18:02
_Goblin	hi	Jun 14 18:03
schestowitz	Hey	Jun 14 18:03
twitter	What the public needs to know is that ARM can do everything their desktop does, if only it has the right software - GNU/Linux.	Jun 14 18:03
maxstirner	beranger site is back..	Jun 14 18:03
schestowitz	Microsoft bans XP on hybrid storage netbooks http://www.techspot.com/news/34999-microsoft-bans-xp-on-hybrid-storage-netbooks.html	Jun 14 18:03
schestowitz	Microsoft Ban Hybrid Storage Systems so MSI Wind U115 Pulled. http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=T&ct=us/8-2&fd=A&url=http://www.cheaplaptops.org.uk/20090608/microsoft-ban-hybrid-storage-systems-so-msi-wind-u115-pulled/&cid=1255683579&ei=ZfcsSuKzA4zSjAeXvPC8BQ&usg=AFQjCNGwolzzCXiVbt8Fy3DGg9VyiSeaOg	Jun 14 18:03
schestowitz	"Microsoft reportedly bans netbooks with hybrid storage systems ... "	Jun 14 18:04
maxstirner	whys that?	Jun 14 18:04
DaemonMDV	I hope those XP systems aren't shipping with IE 6	Jun 14 18:04
DaemonMDV	sweet zombie jesus	Jun 14 18:04
twitter	iPhone is a good demonstration of the hardware capability. It is popular and powerful enough to do most of what the public wants. The software limits annoy users - it has a camera, for example, but does not do SIP video phone via wifi.	Jun 14 18:04
maxstirner	thats due to the mobiel phone companies not enjoying a phone doing voip ;)	Jun 14 18:05
twitter	ARM with free software will have all the hardware power but none of the software limitations.	Jun 14 18:05
DaemonMDV	yeah, but the only hope is that someone can reverse engineer it and load their own firmware	Jun 14 18:05
twitter	any way you put it, max, it's a non free software problem.	Jun 14 18:05
DaemonMDV	cause big companies are the only ones with the resources to make that hardware	Jun 14 18:05
twitter	it does not matter who the owner and limiter are, the limits still suck life.	Jun 14 18:06
DaemonMDV	well, buying a black box device you know you have no control over	Jun 14 18:07
DaemonMDV	then bitching about it	Jun 14 18:07
_Mutex_	the only software limitation is with the ARM CPU, no matter what the OS, its does not do pre-emptive multi-tasking, it multi-tasks, but using timeslicing, and no matter the OS it wont deal with lots of threads well.	Jun 14 18:07
DaemonMDV	that's retarded	Jun 14 18:07
DaemonMDV	just don't buy it	Jun 14 18:07
twitter	M$'s netbook limitations are already failing. Hardware makers are more afraid of stagnant sales than they are of M$ right now, and M$ has few carrots to offer.	Jun 14 18:09
schestowitz	Obama Tells American Businesses to Drop Dead: Kevin Hassett http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_hassett&sid=aaaBdVMkjPnU	Jun 14 18:09
maxstirner	they did get asus to jump ship, i was surprised	Jun 14 18:09
schestowitz	"Once that happens, their new pay czar Kenneth Feinberg can set the wage for everybody and Rahm Emanuel can stack the boards of all of our companies with his political cronies. "	Jun 14 18:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Windows is not yet ready for the Desktop http://ping.fm/o1rnl		Jun 14 18:10
schestowitz	'“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said, “We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S.” If Microsoft, perhaps our most competitive company, has to abandon the U.S. in order to continue to thrive, who exactly is going to stay? '	Jun 14 18:11
schestowitz	What are these lobbyists in Blooberg	Jun 14 18:11
schestowitz	When I saw the headline I thought it was a tabloid	Jun 14 18:11
maxstirner	far-right economics commentators..	Jun 14 18:11
_Mutex_	not foss, its allready UK based :)	Jun 14 18:12
schestowitz	"Kevin Hassett, director of economic-policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute, is a Bloomberg News columnist. He was an adviser to Republican Senator John McCain of Arizona in the 2008 presidential election. The opinions expressed are his own.) "	Jun 14 18:12
maxstirner	typical in US press, its like fox going into "holocaust all the arabs mode" during the iraq war	Jun 14 18:12
maxstirner	AEI is extremely right-wing	Jun 14 18:12
schestowitz	AEI?	Jun 14 18:12
maxstirner	merican Enterprise Institute	Jun 14 18:13
maxstirner	A	Jun 14 18:13
maxstirner	"think tank"	Jun 14 18:13
maxstirner	http://www.theonion.com/content/infograph/os_x_snow_leopard_vs_windows?utm_source=most_pop_dugg <- OS X Snow Leopard vs. Windows 7	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	Another slogger: "Should Microsoft Buy Palm?" http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/06/should_microsof_2.html;jsessionid=LMPWB30KCWHFEQSNDLRSKH0CJUNN2JVN	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	Question mark for trolling	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	And I recognise the author	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	he's anti-Linux	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	Not just the pubiication he writes for	Jun 14 18:14
schestowitz	They seem to be slogging Palm	Jun 14 18:15
schestowitz	Think. Tank.	Jun 14 18:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Firefox 3.5 Preview Shows New Hope For Open Media Standards: http://digg.com/d1tnRQ?t		Jun 14 18:15
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schestowitz	Think tank thinking of tanks or just sitting there all day like the Thinking Man trying to save humanity?	Jun 14 18:16
maxstirner	producing scientific-looking economic reports for money, essentially marketing a political agenda	Jun 14 18:16
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maxstirner	these are commercial entities, no independent funding or neutral stance (beyond the pretense) included	Jun 14 18:17
schestowitz	Of course	Jun 14 18:17
schestowitz	Did you see the latest in Groklaw?	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	Last night that is	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090612142025637	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	"There's more than one entity with that or a similar name, but I suspect that this one may be the Stephen Norris Gulf Capital Partners. Incidentally, or maybe not so incidentally, listed as a senior advisor on the principals page is Robert Kasten, who is also a consultant for the Alexis de Tocqueville Institution"	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	"which you will recall attacked Linux -- here's the infamous "report" [PDF] -- albeit unsuccessfully. Not that AdTI ever admitted defeat, as you can see on this incredible AdTI page, where they call Open Source software "open sores software" and reference both Maureen O'Gara and Paul Murphy -- small world, isn't it?"	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	"The think tank report on Linux was reportedly funded at least indirectly, by Microsoft. Microsoft admits funding AdTI, but not specific projects. And it called the report unhelpful. Of course, there are coincidences in life of the three degrees variety. So, just saying. "	Jun 14 18:18
schestowitz	maxstirner: yesterday I got an E-mail from the director of one of those 'experts'	Jun 14 18:19
schestowitz	He didn't deny that Microsoft pays them	Jun 14 18:19
schestowitz	They slammed Google BTW	Jun 14 18:19
schestowitz	But he said they did not pay _much_ :-0)	Jun 14 18:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 200 comments in an article from a fed up MSFT shareholder. http://ping.fm/LkxCK		Jun 14 18:20
maxstirner	I wouldn't be suprised if PR companies produce PR for money really ;)	Jun 14 18:21
maxstirner	even university studies can be bought (cf pharma again)	Jun 14 18:21
schestowitz	Microsoft to JavaOne Attendees: We Come in Peace < http://www.cmswire.com/cms/web-development/microsoft-to-javaone-attendees-we-come-in-peace-004783.php > ="we come in peace" => Schmoozing tactics	Jun 14 18:22
schestowitz	maxstirner: not can, are	Jun 14 18:22
schestowitz	I spoke about it to some colleagues in academia	Jun 14 18:22
schestowitz	AstraZenaca funds some PhDs around here	Jun 14 18:22
schestowitz	To prove what it needs to be 'proven'	Jun 14 18:23
schestowitz	Merck and MS just joined hands	Jun 14 18:23
schestowitz	After massive Merck collusion with Elsevier	Jun 14 18:23
maxstirner	:D its standard business practice..	Jun 14 18:23
maxstirner	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville_Institution Washington, D.C.–based right-wing think tank that produces reports and policy research.	Jun 14 18:23
maxstirner	These detail how, after the Environmental Protection Agency moved in 1993 to have second-hand tobacco smoke declared a carcinogen, Philip Morris hired the AdTI to campaign against the move	Jun 14 18:24
maxstirner	axis of evil :D	Jun 14 18:24
schestowitz	Microsoft Issues Jobs Threat To Obama Over Tax Plans < http://www.tax-news.com/asp/story/Microsoft_Issues_Jobs_Threat_To_Obama_Over_Tax_Plans_xxxx37222.html > More Americans should be made aware of this	Jun 14 18:24
maxstirner	AdTI is a member organization of the Cooler Heads Coalition which asserts that "the science of global warming is uncertain"	Jun 14 18:24
maxstirner	hohohoho	Jun 14 18:24
schestowitz	And now be shown PearlyG prtending that Americans are stupid	Jun 14 18:24
schestowitz	tears "Our education is so bad... we'll die unless we give visas to people from developed countries like.... not the US"	Jun 14 18:25
schestowitz	It's a miracle that Google find capable people in this 'stupid' education PearlyG whines about	Jun 14 18:25
maxstirner	http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199710--.htm <- cf What Makes Mainstream Media Mainstream, Noam Chomsky essay about the public relations industry, marketing and the mainstream media	Jun 14 18:27
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schestowitz	Exclusive: Microsoft's Wacky New Ads to Pitch IE8 < http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2348416,00.asp > How miserable. Bundling was not enough for them	Jun 14 18:31
schestowitz	maxstirner: "There is another sector of the media, the elite media, sometimes called the agenda-setting media because they are the ones with the big resources, they set the framework in which everyone else operates. The New York Times and CBS, that kind of thing."	Jun 14 18:32
schestowitz	Yes, there's that observation he repeats a lot	Jun 14 18:33
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schestowitz	If writer=!compliant(NYT), then sack();	Jun 14 18:33
maxstirner	theres been a lot of downsizing in the print media in the last decade, with most people just copying of AP/reuters	Jun 14 18:33
_Hicham_	sack(schestowitz);	Jun 14 18:33
_Hicham_	sacking successful	Jun 14 18:34
maxstirner	the MS ads have been v wacky lately	Jun 14 18:34
*schestowitz gets out of the sack		Jun 14 18:35
maxstirner	that bill gates ad with the shoes with that slimey tv person was so odd	Jun 14 18:35
schestowitz	Yeah, I like the death of 'mainstream' media	Jun 14 18:35
schestowitz	The problem is, MS starts AstroTurfing	Jun 14 18:35
schestowitz	It tries to capture the new modes of interaction re IT	Jun 14 18:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft 'compensates' schools by 'allowing' them to buy more Microsoft http://ping.fm/jXIl2 Classic scam		Jun 14 18:35
maxstirner	with the interweb there has been some sense of that, hence all the guerilla marketing efforst as you say	Jun 14 18:35
maxstirner	but online many-to-many communication is deeply elite in demographic terms, hence the continuing importance of tv-based propaganda	Jun 14 18:36
schestowitz	There are EU laws against that	Jun 14 18:36
schestowitz	The US is still behind the curve	Jun 14 18:36
schestowitz	The FTC responded last week	Jun 14 18:37
schestowitz	Ish	Jun 14 18:37
schestowitz	But the FTC is inherently corrupt	Jun 14 18:37
schestowitz	It's like the SEC, it's a joke with an office in DC or whatever	Jun 14 18:37
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schestowitz	Slimesoft.. Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTech Microsoft IP Ventures Launches Ireland's Latest Tech Startup: InishTech	Jun 14 18:38
schestowitz	maxstirner: How Bill Gates caught the global health bug http://crosscut.com/2009/06/08/health-medicine/19043/	Jun 14 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[astralknight] Shining Some Light on Microsoft's Nasty Moonlight Covenant: http://digg.com/d1tnXL?t		Jun 14 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz so where are the abusive astroturfers? it's a mystery, as Toyah would say.		Jun 14 18:40
schestowitz	Bill Gates visits World Health Organization http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103	Jun 14 18:40
schestowitz	Lobbying grandeur	Jun 14 18:40
schestowitz	Next stop: WIPO?	Jun 14 18:40
maxstirner	media will be excluded from the meeting	Jun 14 18:41
maxstirner	secret agenda? :D	Jun 14 18:41
maxstirner	fixing the world with stolen billions. one step at a time. in secret.	Jun 14 18:42
schestowitz	maxstirner: cry a river for poor little rich man... http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009318238_apwagatesfoundationendowment.html < Economic downturn hits world's richest foundation >	Jun 14 18:42
schestowitz	Seatttle Times	Jun 14 18:42
schestowitz	You whose agenda they set	Jun 14 18:42
schestowitz	maxstirner: no media?	Jun 14 18:43
schestowitz	Does that say it?	Jun 14 18:43
maxstirner	in the link you posted above yes	Jun 14 18:43
maxstirner	i did see an article about the english rich list, elton john or something like that lost a third	Jun 14 18:43
maxstirner	http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jZCmJsVtrriRa5dXaQuh3nd_RifAD98N2M103	Jun 14 18:44
maxstirner	last sentence	Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz	AP	Jun 14 18:44
maxstirner	i dont really understand why that would be	Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz	Thanks	Jun 14 18:44
maxstirner	necessary?	Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz	It's a good fit for my posy about Merckosoft	Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz	They kiss and hug now	Jun 14 18:44
schestowitz	Microsoft Hires New GM for U.S. Distribution and Services http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Hires-New-GM-for-U-S-Distribution-and-Services-113634.shtml	Jun 14 18:45
maxstirner	i think with bill g it is also the rockefeller syndrome, the richest are often the most hated, he's probably christian as well so they do start giving away a bit due to going to hell paranoia	Jun 14 18:45
schestowitz	Cramer: Don't Panic in the Pause < http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=289004&cl=13889563&src=finance&ch=633473 >	Jun 14 18:45
schestowitz	Did you see Cramer getting busted for supposedly playing stocks using his show? (pumpin' them)	Jun 14 18:46
maxstirner	nope	Jun 14 18:46
schestowitz	Who, Gates?	Jun 14 18:46
maxstirner	yes	Jun 14 18:46
schestowitz	No, Jewish	Jun 14 18:46
maxstirner	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#Philanthropy	Jun 14 18:46
maxstirner	"richest person in history"	Jun 14 18:46
schestowitz	Not that it matters	Jun 14 18:47
maxstirner	he may have a conscience either way ;)	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	Probably not practising either, so it's just a descent thing	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	He still have his familay around	Jun 14 18:47
maxstirner	well living in a post-christian guilt-ridden society	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	it's a dynasty	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	Gates too	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	His dad, wife, others	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	Now Jeff Raikes	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	They made his hand of the B&M Foundry	Jun 14 18:47
schestowitz	*head	Jun 14 18:48
maxstirner	i suppose gates was fairly self-made in comparison to rockefeller or gwb	Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz	"John Davison Rockefeller (July 8, 1839 – May 23, 1937) was an American industrialist and philanthropist. Rockefeller revolutionized the petroleum industry and defined the structure of modern philanthropy. In 1870, he founded the Standard Oil Company and ran it until he officially retired in 1897"	Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz	"The owners of the country" ;-)	Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz	To be fair, other countries have these too	Jun 14 18:48
schestowitz	Carlos Slim, people in places like Dubai (the prince)	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	Not sure where wealth is centralised in China...	Jun 14 18:49
maxstirner	certainly.. the point being: note philant. defining factor in his biography	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	Ha	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	PR makeover	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	They pay for that stuff	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	To people like Berman	Jun 14 18:49
maxstirner	you dont want a legacy as richest oil billionaire ever	Jun 14 18:49
schestowitz	Who is an expert in fake charities	Jun 14 18:49
maxstirner	i suppose.. i think its guilt as well, you seem to think its 100% marketing and tax evasion	Jun 14 18:50
schestowitz	Yes, but it's a systematic fatality	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	And the better solution is to fix the market	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	Inc. regulators	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	Not 10 years late (like the EU Commision)	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	And there should be jail time	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	Jail is not there for shoplifers	Jun 14 18:52
schestowitz	Shite-collar criminals are the most harmful to society	Jun 14 18:53
maxstirner	i wouldnt depend on the EU commission to be or become overly democratic or pro-people	Jun 14 18:53
schestowitz	In many ways, shoplfting is upped by white collar crime	Jun 14 18:53
maxstirner	jail is precisely for shoplifters, protection of property was always the most important function of the modern state ;)	Jun 14 18:53
schestowitz	As in, "the rich steal from us, then we can nick this and that"	Jun 14 18:53
schestowitz	maxstirner: so how do you punish those who profiteer with crime?	Jun 14 18:54
schestowitz	House arrest?	Jun 14 18:54
schestowitz	Fines?	Jun 14 18:54
schestowitz	Deposition?	Jun 14 18:54
maxstirner	of course there should be prison for that	Jun 14 18:54
maxstirner	but its illusionary really	Jun 14 18:54
maxstirner	in classical terms you lock up thieving povs, not greedy rich people	Jun 14 18:55
maxstirner	http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/20/peers-suspended-cash-for-amendments	Jun 14 18:56
maxstirner	its funny, he even bragged they do this sort of thing all the time	Jun 14 18:56
_Hicham_	what are u doing DaemonMDV?	Jun 14 18:57
maxstirner	i was just reminded by your post regarding botnets on smartmeters	Jun 14 18:57
maxstirner	http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5581547.ece	Jun 14 18:57
maxstirner	Lord Truscott, the former energy minister, said he had helped to ensure the Energy Bill was favourable to a client selling “smart” electricity meters. Lord Taylor of Blackburn claimed he had changed the law to help his client Experian, the credit check company.	Jun 14 18:57
maxstirner	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/12/smart_grid_security_risks/	Jun 14 18:59
maxstirner	Buggy 'smart meters' open door to power-grid botnet	Jun 14 18:59
DaemonMDV	your mother	Jun 14 18:59
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 18:59
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : u said that u r gay	Jun 14 19:00
maxstirner	oh dear	Jun 14 19:01
_Hicham_	so u can only be done	Jun 14 19:01
maxstirner	off topic?	Jun 14 19:01
_Hicham_	u can't do anything	Jun 14 19:01
DaemonMDV	just slightly off topic	Jun 14 19:01
maxstirner	terrible	Jun 14 19:01
_Hicham_	maxstirner : don't worry, it is usual in here	Jun 14 19:01
maxstirner	great	Jun 14 19:02
*maxstirner is not interested in the sexual preferences of random irc participants		Jun 14 19:02
_Mutex_	max it always amuses me what I see headlines like that, as if the smart meter whispers "Psst hay you, ive got this port open, come in and hack me" !!	Jun 14 19:02
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : I don't think that u even have a dick	Jun 14 19:02
_Hicham_	just a big ass	Jun 14 19:02
_Mutex_	as if someone is on thair computer and suddenly for no reason they have "access" to the power grid :)	Jun 14 19:03
*DaemonMDV has pictures but that's really off topic		Jun 14 19:03
_Mutex_	just by accident	Jun 14 19:03
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : go see this http://free2g1c.com/	Jun 14 19:06
*mib_kdeff9 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")		Jun 14 19:07
*rishabh has quit ("leaving")		Jun 14 19:08
schestowitz	maxstirner: I'm back	Jun 14 19:09
schestowitz	Let me catch up	Jun 14 19:09
_Hicham_	schestowitz : have u been in the gym?	Jun 14 19:10
maxstirner	you've missed the dick jokes	Jun 14 19:10
schestowitz	Nope	Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz	Yeah, just caught up with that	Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz	DaemonMDV said he was doing someone's mom	Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz	That's why trolls are no good here	Jun 14 19:11
maxstirner	:D is that how it started	Jun 14 19:11
schestowitz	They muddy the water	Jun 14 19:12
_Hicham_	schestowitz : I can deal with that, don't worry	Jun 14 19:12
_Hicham_	I always try to well behave with him, but he is like u know	Jun 14 19:12
schestowitz	It's amazing how MS PR people always get the scoop on dead MS products	Jun 14 19:12
schestowitz	Like MS Money in this case	Jun 14 19:13
schestowitz	PR stunts	Jun 14 19:13
schestowitz	How to cushion the blow	Jun 14 19:13
maxstirner	i don't really get it, were they ever selling lots?	Jun 14 19:13
maxstirner	i've only ever seen quicken in operation for private finance, rest is SAP etc	Jun 14 19:14
_Hicham_	Obama is accused of being Anti-Semitic, funny	Jun 14 19:16
maxstirner	because they appear to be imposing restrictions on the israeli army massacring the palestinian population?	Jun 14 19:17
_Hicham_	yes, that is it	Jun 14 19:18
_Hicham_	it is the right party people who says that	Jun 14 19:18
_Hicham_	they want no restrictions	Jun 14 19:18
DaemonMDV	they should give the Israelis more ammo	Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz	How's this for mentality: http://www.cnbc.com/id/31214480/site/14081545?__source=yahoo\|headline\|quote\|text\|&par=yahoo Cramer says: “It’s not about friends. It’s about money. I’m going to take that up. We’ll do some compares to see how Microsoft did. May I make a point, though? He did not overpay for Yahoo!. He didn’t buy it.”	Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz	“It’s not about friends. It’s about money."	Jun 14 19:19
schestowitz	To some people,money is a friend	Jun 14 19:19
DaemonMDV	let them take care of each other	Jun 14 19:19
DaemonMDV	lots cheaper for us	Jun 14 19:19
DaemonMDV	:)	Jun 14 19:19
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV : we are coming to u!	Jun 14 19:20
_Hicham_	u gonna be fucked right in front of ur computer	Jun 14 19:20
DaemonMDV	whatever	Jun 14 19:20
maxstirner	so how many trollbots have we got on standby here?	Jun 14 19:21
maxstirner	:D	Jun 14 19:21
_Hicham_	DaemonMDV is their head	Jun 14 19:21
_Hicham_	pkill DaemonMDV	Jun 14 19:21
schestowitz	-9	Jun 14 19:21
maxstirner	:D	Jun 14 19:22
maxstirner	i was typing that actually	Jun 14 19:22
_Mutex_	me ;)	Jun 14 19:22
schestowitz	Anyway.....	Jun 14 19:22
_Hicham_	schestowitz : Open Source World should get more money to counter MS	Jun 14 19:22
_Hicham_	that is the only way	Jun 14 19:22
_Hicham_	money=power	Jun 14 19:22
schestowitz	chan addtroll(1);	Jun 14 19:23
schestowitz	Oops. Forgot the slash	Jun 14 19:23
schestowitz	_Hicham_: not really	Jun 14 19:23
schestowitz	Some people do things for no pay	Jun 14 19:24
schestowitz	But...	Jun 14 19:24
_Hicham_	I know	Jun 14 19:24
schestowitz	Not Cramer	Jun 14 19:24
schestowitz	“It’s not about friends. It’s about money."	Jun 14 19:24
_Hicham_	we need more full time Open Source devs	Jun 14 19:24
schestowitz	He talked about Bill &Steve	Jun 14 19:24
_Hicham_	full time devs are more productive	Jun 14 19:24
_Mutex_	I was going to say the same, its better to have more good quality devs, than few devs and lots of money	Jun 14 19:25
_Hicham_	why not have both?	Jun 14 19:25
_Mutex_	money will come, and so will market share, as the code improves, as good as it is, its still got a long ways to go.	Jun 14 19:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Korean Court Finds Microsoft Guilty in Anti-trust Case < http://ping.fm/1S11B >		Jun 14 19:25
_Hicham_	which code _Mutex_?	Jun 14 19:25
_Mutex_	GNU/Linux everything, the whole lot	Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_	the code is great	Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_	even better than Windows in some cases	Jun 14 19:26
_Mutex_	no the code is good, its far from great.	Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_	I know	Jun 14 19:26
_Mutex_	saying its great or "perfect" implies little or no further work is necessary, and thats far from the case.	Jun 14 19:26
_Hicham_	nothing is perfect	Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_	Ubuntu alone has a massive and growing bugs list.	Jun 14 19:27
_Hicham_	due to their patches	Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_	I know nothing its perfect, thats no reason to settle for average.	Jun 14 19:27
_Hicham_	their patches create most of the bugs	Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_	Its like saying its impossible to debug 11 millions lines of code	Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_	why is it,	Jun 14 19:27
_Mutex_	if it was impossible, it would be impossible to write it.	Jun 14 19:28
_Hicham_	it is not impossible, but needs time	Jun 14 19:28
_Mutex_	and he's right you cant debug 11 mil lines, but hunderds of people could all debug a few functions or bugs.	Jun 14 19:28
_Hicham_	that is why we created test units	Jun 14 19:29
_Mutex_	yes, exactly, we've had 17 plus years at this, it should be getting to the stage where large chunks are bug free and stable and of high quality, it will get there,	Jun 14 19:29
_Mutex_	test units are a part or sub-section of quality assurance especially for software.	Jun 14 19:30
_Mutex_	take and sit through a few formal code reviews, and your coding will go from average to very good very quickly.	Jun 14 19:30
_Mutex_	when you have to explain every single line of code in your function to 4 or 5 very experienced programmer who will try to pick it to bits, you learn fast how to make great code	Jun 14 19:31
_Mutex_	the is easy to read, understand and most of all explain and simple english	Jun 14 19:31
_Hicham_	things will improve greatly when link time optimization will be implemented in gcc	Jun 14 19:32
_Mutex_	that combined with strict coding standards, (not just indentations), but structurally, goes a long way to making great code.	Jun 14 19:32
_Mutex_	Yes, it will, but you cant rely on optimisation C compilers to create good quality code, because it dont work that way.	Jun 14 19:33
_Mutex_	even with the best tools you can still easy create rubbish.	Jun 14 19:33
_Mutex_	(i know)	Jun 14 19:33
Omar87	Okay people, I'm sincerely becoming a huge fan of Chris Pirillo..	Jun 14 19:34
schestowitz	Meh	Jun 14 19:34
Omar87	schestowitz: huh?	Jun 14 19:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Watch this picture: http://ping.fm/KRSCA		Jun 14 19:35
schestowitz	Omar87: Chris is a MS MVP	Jun 14 19:46
Omar87	schestowitz: That's not so true.	Jun 14 19:46
schestowitz	Microsoft gave him this 'title' not in vain	Jun 14 19:46
schestowitz	He serves them	Jun 14 19:46
schestowitz	Omar87: no, it's true	Jun 14 19:46
Omar87	schestowitz: I believe he's neutral.	Jun 14 19:47
schestowitz	It's a binary thing	Jun 14 19:47
schestowitz	Unless they took it away from him	Jun 14 19:47
Omar87	schestowitz: No it's not.	Jun 14 19:47
Omar87	schestowitz: Because he talks pretty good about GPL, open source and Linux.	Jun 14 19:47
Omar87	schestowitz: Especially when he talked about Tonido, the GPL'ed file/content sharing application.	Jun 14 19:48
schestowitz	Forrester may be using biased populations to make fake surveys. http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/06/12/how-are-iphone-owners-different-forrester-counts-the-ways/?source=yahoo_quote	Jun 14 19:48
schestowitz	Omar87: that's how they pull people	Jun 14 19:48
Omar87	schestowitz: Huh??	Jun 14 19:48
schestowitz	To captivate people outside the choir	Jun 14 19:48
Omar87	I don't understand.	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	If he only spoke about MS, then he would speak to the choir	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	But by reaching out to others he can achieve more	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	Never mind.	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	He supports MS crimes by action IMHO	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	I argued with him about it	Jun 14 19:49
schestowitz	He's still in their pockets	Jun 14 19:49
Omar87	schestowitz: No offense, seriously, but I'm not gonna listen to you a lot anymore. :)	Jun 14 19:49
Omar87	Because this can't be considered anything more than paranoia, no offense again.	Jun 14 19:50
schestowitz	VMware Apologizes To Microsoft For Hyper-V Bashing http://www.crn.com/software/217801019;jsessionid=2IVVTCJIZDWZIQSNDLRSKHSCJUNN2JVN	Jun 14 19:50
DaemonMDV	http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hYS8CIYEBgudlm2SjLh0xekik0RwD98QK1182	Jun 14 19:50
DaemonMDV	Stimulus Bill was bullshit	Jun 14 19:50
DaemonMDV	Biden on the run	Jun 14 19:50
schestowitz	Omar87: OK	Jun 14 19:50
DaemonMDV	:P	Jun 14 19:50
Omar87	schestowitz: Can you prove that he's an MS goon?	Jun 14 19:51
schestowitz	Yes	Jun 14 19:51
Omar87	Okay, go ahead.	Jun 14 19:51
schestowitz	For example: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/12/22/antitrust-microsoft-apologist/	Jun 14 19:53
schestowitz	Microsoft Browser Offer Fails to Impress Europe < http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/13/technology/companies/13euro.html?ref=world > nationalist \press'	Jun 14 19:55
schestowitz	Omar87: mind you, I'm like friends with Chris	Jun 14 19:56
schestowitz	I speak with him sometimes, but I know where he's at	Jun 14 19:56
schestowitz	MS made him what he is..	Jun 14 19:56
Omar87	schestowitz: You know him personally?	Jun 14 19:56
schestowitz	Not really. I mean, we sometimes excahnge messages	Jun 14 19:56
schestowitz	He's not rude and neither am I	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	But he seems to have no problems with MS' behaviour	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	Because he drinks their Kool-Aid	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	Just cause he doesn't like VIsta doesn't mean he's opposed to the corruption	Jun 14 19:57
Omar87	But is there any way anyone would become what he is without MS influence?	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	I don't care much about MS products	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	I care about how they attack Linux	Jun 14 19:57
schestowitz	and competition in general	Jun 14 19:58
schestowitz	And how they steal money from the public	Jun 14 19:58
schestowitz	Lie	Jun 14 19:58
schestowitz	Write letter on behalf of dead people	Jun 14 19:58
schestowitz	Do smear campaigns gainst people	Jun 14 19:58