IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 29th, 2009

twitterWas it?  Even M$ has trouble showing that anyone uses Vista.Jun 29 00:00
taconewell they could have it pirated all the way and then cry out loud for new laws on piracyJun 29 00:00
_Goblintrue.Jun 29 00:00
_GoblinI think when people get it for free they are more willing to have a look.  I think giving MS cash for it will be the problem.  Either way MS has difficulties ahead (IMO)Jun 29 00:01
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_Goblin"getting them hooked" is a great idea if you have a company left to get a return.Jun 29 00:01
twitterPeople got Vista "for free" with their new computers, but they did not stick with it.Jun 29 00:01
twitterthey dumped Vista as fast as they could.Jun 29 00:01
twitterEven M$ friendly "marketshare" studies have Windoze at 87% or less.Jun 29 00:02
_Goblinyep. and those "free" copies were what MS counted as "users" even if they had downgraded.Jun 29 00:02
twitterand they made it easy enough to get by "piracy"Jun 29 00:03
_Goblinor should I say upgraded to XP.Jun 29 00:03
ThistleWebyep, it counts as a vista sale, regardless of if they paid a premium to stay on xp, or wiped it when it got homeJun 29 00:03
twitterM$ flails and fails.Jun 29 00:03
_GoblinThe real show of MS failing will be when the freeloaders who rely on MS bribes start to disapear....forget MS cutting products, the "silence of the shills" will signify the end of MS as we know it.Jun 29 00:04
oiaohmLinux is currently in chaos of its own making.Jun 29 00:05
oiaohmVideo driver corrections.Jun 29 00:05
_Goblinand that name is now copyrighted...I'm going to make a movie.  "The Silence of the Shills"Jun 29 00:05
twittertrolls stalking me show amazing brazenness 29 00:05
oiaohmWhen Linux gets out the otherside of this mess it will be a desktop class kernel.Jun 29 00:05
oiaohmThen the battle between windows and Linux can start.Jun 29 00:06
_GoblinIts sad MS has to behave this least the Amiga/ST wars were clean.Jun 29 00:06
twitterthey are here, or they monitor all of my journals for changes on a daily basis.Jun 29 00:06
oiaohmDo you have access to logs.Jun 29 00:07
twittershowing off their nyms like that was a mistake.Jun 29 00:07
oiaohmOf server.Jun 29 00:07
oiaohmIt would be interesting to know when MS search visits.Jun 29 00:07
oiaohmAnd how far behind the trolls are.Jun 29 00:07
twitterI now have pretty clear evidence of how obsessive and organized these douche bags are.Jun 29 00:08
ThistleWebI wonder when the tipping point will come. Companies like Adobe won't look at Linux now because they make plenty of money from Mac and Windows professionals who have too much to lose if they get caught using pirated copies, but at some point Linux's marketshare will be obvious to them that they're losing potential customers by not making their stuff available for Linux too. In some cases bribes by Microsoft are keeping companies from offering LJun 29 00:08
ThistleWebinux options, but at some point that won't be enoughJun 29 00:08
oiaohmIts not enough now.Jun 29 00:09
ThistleWebas soon as a large company like Adobe start treating Linux as an equal option alongside the other two, others will join in, assuming Adobe have spotted something they haven't and don't want left outJun 29 00:09
oiaohmLot of devices shipping with windows on are still shipping with Linux of some form.Jun 29 00:09
oiaohmIe splashtop and the like.Jun 29 00:09
oiaohmAdobe said there major reason for not supporting Linux is the installer fragmentation.Jun 29 00:10
ThistleWebthey have at least given a new version of Flash playerJun 29 00:10
oiaohmThink about that.Jun 29 00:11
ThistleWebeven if it is a security risk on every platformJun 29 00:11
oiaohmIt was basically at the same time on all platforms.Jun 29 00:11
oiaohmGo back a few years and you had to wait like 8 months for a new Flash player.Jun 29 00:11
oiaohmafter windows had it.Jun 29 00:11
ThistleWebexactlyJun 29 00:11
oiaohmThe tide is turning.Jun 29 00:11
ThistleWebadobe's flagship products are the pro use onesJun 29 00:11
ThistleWebmostly used by pro designers, who will likely be using macsJun 29 00:12
tacone 29 00:12
ThistleWebplenty of offices do need photshop or dreamweaver for updating sites etc and use windowsJun 29 00:13
oiaohmDefine need.Jun 29 00:13
oiaohmI recently did a class here using gimp.Jun 29 00:13
ThistleWebmost home users who use adobe's flagship stuff, use pirated versionsJun 29 00:13
oiaohmTurned out lots were not dusing the unque versions of photoshop.Jun 29 00:13
ThistleWebneed is maybe the wrong wordJun 29 00:14
oiaohmtry again.Jun 29 00:14
oiaohmTurned out lots were not using unque features of photoshop.Jun 29 00:14
ThistleWebthe point I was trying to make is that the peeps who have to pay for their stuff are gonna be using mostly macs, and to a lesser degree windowsJun 29 00:14
taconewow, ms is boycotting euJun 29 00:15
tacone 29 00:15
ThistleWebwhile the linux share rises, it may take a lot for adobe to see their particular profitable demographic represented enough to react toJun 29 00:16
ThistleWebI guess I should have used a different company as an example huh? lolJun 29 00:16
_GoblinLol..seems that way...its probably the only way to get a return from Vista 7 after the EU anti-trust hit them with a fine.Jun 29 00:16
taconeritorsionJun 29 00:16
_Goblin* in relation to tacone's post...Jun 29 00:16
oiaohmLot of closed source companies fear going head to head with open source tech.Jun 29 00:17
oiaohmIf you look at blender you can understand why.Jun 29 00:17
taconenice pointJun 29 00:17
_GoblinOntop of that, what with the Vista 7 claims of security, what of 3rd party developers of such software...Jun 29 00:17
taconecompeting with open source may be scaring for little companiesJun 29 00:17
oiaohmEven big companies like adobe.Jun 29 00:17
ThistleWebMicrosoft will punish people for not being good little sheep and upgrading en masse to Vista like they've been told to. Microsoft already spent a lot of money they expected to just roll in when Vista hit the stores, and it didn't comeJun 29 00:17
oiaohmAdobe learnt with there PDF reader.Jun 29 00:18
oiaohmLinux has many good open source PDF readers that work better than the adobe one.Jun 29 00:18
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ThistleWebso they have to make that back somehow, adding the punishment to the Windows 7 price seems about right, with an additional fee for EU customers to pay for the EU finesJun 29 00:18
oiaohmOpen source developers will try to repair stuff if they cannot repair it they will replace it.Jun 29 00:19
oiaohmThis is scary to closed source companies.Jun 29 00:19
oiaohmThere is one thing the open source world is particularly bad at doing writing manuals.Jun 29 00:20
ThistleWeblock in is a great way of ensuring repeat business, it's just shit for the customer, FOSS is very difficult (if not impossible) to lock the customer in, so you have to compete by actually offering a better service and or price, which is a lot more time consuming and less guaranteed than the initial sale of a programJun 29 00:20
oiaohmWindows 7 seams to be on time line to go head to head with improved Linux.Jun 29 00:21
schestowitzAnother good documentary: 29 00:21
oiaohmAs more and more users are trying open source distributions they are expecting more applications after install.Jun 29 00:22
oiaohmMS also had the idea that cutting XP price to basically nothing they could push Linux out of existance.Jun 29 00:23
_Goblinanother MS great idea.Jun 29 00:23
ThistleWeboiaohm: that could be a bad thing if it's acted on too much, as it encourages more bloat and larger .iso files, meaning less cd's and more dvd's. The 700mb cd limit helps keep it down thoughJun 29 00:23
ThistleWebdvd .iso's are great but not everyone wants a huge file, or has the option of dvdJun 29 00:24
ThistleWeboptions are always goodJun 29 00:24
_Goblintrue, although Nimble X allows you to create your distro's packages before downloading the ISO....great idea, keeps bandwidth down and the user immediately gets what they want.Jun 29 00:25
ThistleWebat least with a cd, there's always the dilema of what to add and what to remove to make space for itJun 29 00:25
ThistleWeb_Goblin: yeah slax does that tooJun 29 00:25
ThistleWebas an optionJun 29 00:25
jose_XJust read the link posted a little earlier: 29 00:25
ThistleWebdunno if I'd suggest slax for a newbieJun 29 00:26
oiaohmReally the time of CD installers is coming to the end.Jun 29 00:26
ThistleWebbut as I said, options are greatJun 29 00:26
_GoblinI think its a great idea...and yes, I think Slax is wholly unsuitable for a completely new Linux user.Jun 29 00:26
oiaohmLot more focus need to move to USB installers.Jun 29 00:26
ThistleWeboiaohm: not for peeps who only have a cdJun 29 00:26
oiaohmHow many machines don't support USB keys ThistleWeb.Jun 29 00:26
ThistleWebI knowJun 29 00:27
oiaohmThere are more and more machines appearing without a cdrom drive.Jun 29 00:27
_GoblinMind you NimbleX is slax derived, and offers the advantages of without the complication.....I've written articles on NimbleX before, I was very impressed.Jun 29 00:27
_GoblinI think the standard ISO is 200meg.Jun 29 00:28
oiaohmXP it self is only 200 megs.Jun 29 00:28
_Goblinand that gives you the choice of about 7 different DE'sJun 29 00:28
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ThistleWebnever thought of nimble x beforeJun 29 00:29
_Goblinsome of which I had never heard of until I looked at NimbleXJun 29 00:29
ThistleWebI thought it was a debian derivativeJun 29 00:29
ThistleWebI must be thinking of somehting elseJun 29 00:29
_Goblinyou've now made me doubt myself....!  Ill double check....Jun 29 00:29
ThistleWebit's slackware basedJun 29 00:31
_Goblinyeah just saw on the site....Jun 29 00:31
_Goblinoff topic: Ive got the Bullying UK charity following me on Twitter.  Is that trying to tell me something?  Is it saying I bully the MS faithful or the MS faithful bully me?Jun 29 00:33
_GoblinI dont feel like a victim....or maybe I am in denial.Jun 29 00:34
ThistleWebmaybeJun 29 00:34
oiaohmVector Linux is also slax based.   Its not the packaging format is the package system that controls it defines userfriendlyness.Jun 29 00:36
ThistleWeba distro that has me intriuged but I've never tried it, nor do I think I could ever fully trust it is Pardus, because it's (Turkish) govt built. Any "govt endorsed" software is likely to have something dubiousJun 29 00:36
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_Hicham_Hi schestowitz!Jun 29 00:37
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schestowitzHeyJun 29 00:37
oiaohmHi schestowitzJun 29 00:37
schestowitz"Enemy combatant".. 29 00:38
schestowitzIt's amazing how the law is misusedJun 29 00:38
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am on Mandriva nowJun 29 00:39
_Hicham_I heard that it will get plymouth by next yearJun 29 00:39
oiaohmThe news vacuem is pushing more open source news main stream.Jun 29 00:41
_Hicham_oiaohm : what do we mean by " A Kernel compiled with Memory Management"?Jun 29 00:41
oiaohmI need context to work that one out _Hicham_Jun 29 00:42
oiaohmMemory Management comes in many different forms.Jun 29 00:43
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oiaohmOne of the patches recently with the Linux kernel was to remove the duel memory manager.Jun 29 00:44
oiaohmLinux kernel had a start up memory management that would allows the main memory manager to load.Jun 29 00:45
oiaohmThey are removing the start up memory management and just using the main memory manager from the start line.Jun 29 00:45
oiaohmAnd there are many more meaning that line can mean _Hicham_Jun 29 00:46
oiaohmContext is important to work out what the line is aboutJun 29 00:46
_Hicham_I heard that when they are talking about KMSJun 29 00:47
oiaohmOk that is talking about GEM and TTM.Jun 29 00:47
oiaohmVideo card memory management is required so KMS can work.Jun 29 00:47
oiaohmYes the line you gave me is used many times to mean many different things.  English with implied context is a bastard.Jun 29 00:49
_Hicham_so what is GEM and TTM?Jun 29 00:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] DW/LJ: Notes to self. 29 00:57
schestowitz_Hicham_: my cousin loved that tool you linked toJun 29 00:59
schestowitzMade a collage from it..Jun 29 00:59
oiaohmGEM and TTM are the two different systems designed for managing video card memory in Linux.Jun 29 01:00
_Hicham_schestowitz : what tool?Jun 29 01:00
oiaohmGEM is used by intel.   TTM is used by AMD.   TTM provides a GEM interface to userspace.Jun 29 01:01
schestowitz_Hicham_: for pictures to be embeddedJun 29 01:01
_Goblinright, Im off to all.Jun 29 01:02
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schestowitzI'm not tired today. Weird.Jun 29 01:09
oiaohmYou have pushed some strange sleep paterns most likely catching up with you schestowitzJun 29 01:10
fewa 29 01:11
oiaohmI have had times where I have not slept for 24 hours after a stuffed up sleep cycles.Jun 29 01:11
fewaBrazilian President Shows Warmth To Pirate Bay SpokesmanJun 29 01:11
fewa“In our government it is prohibited to prohibit,” said the president during his speech at the event. “I consider this bill a form of censorship,” he added.Jun 29 01:11
_Hicham_oiaohm : u don't seem to be a big sleeperJun 29 01:12
oiaohmI sleep 8 hours.Jun 29 01:12
oiaohmIt day here _Hicham_Jun 29 01:12
oiaohmschestowitz and me are basically on other sides of the world.Jun 29 01:13
_Hicham_me and schestowitz have the same time zoneJun 29 01:14
oiaohmI am in Australia _Hicham_Jun 29 01:15
oiaohmSo what is late to you is basically day to me.Jun 29 01:15
_Hicham_I know thatJun 29 01:15
_Hicham_r u taking breakfast?Jun 29 01:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] OMFG. First Michael and now Billy! Someone is systematically knocking off the world's most talented people! I better be careful...Jun 29 01:17
oiaohmHad breakfast about 3 hours ago.Jun 29 01:17
_Hicham_oiaohm : did u use Mono for development before?Jun 29 01:19
oiaohmPlayed with it then cursed it.Jun 29 01:19
oiaohmMono people compare it to likes of python and php.   Yet it don't compare.  Main advantage of php and python is not having to rebuild to run alterations.Jun 29 01:20
_Hicham_Mono can be compared to JavaJun 29 01:22
oiaohm  That is python pushed to limit.Jun 29 01:22
_Hicham_it does even have a java vmJun 29 01:22
oiaohmJava at one stage was ment to be the next big thing in application development too.Jun 29 01:23
_Hicham_but Java's approach is better than .NET's oneJun 29 01:24
oiaohmvm is halfway between nativecode and stuff like php and python.   Basically gains the worse disadvantages of both.Jun 29 01:24
oiaohmI don't really like java either.Jun 29 01:24
oiaohmIf java really worked our desktops would be over run with java applications.Jun 29 01:25
oiaohmMono developers are learning nothing from history.Jun 29 01:26
oiaohmLets say we look at the java and .net idea and truly try to make it work.  The check list you must tick off is the following.Jun 29 01:27
oiaohmMust be light to use native platform libraries.Jun 29 01:27
oiaohmMust use AOT so there is not overhead each time its run.Jun 29 01:28
oiaohmMust be simple to make interface wrappers to native platform libraries prefered automatic.Jun 29 01:28
oiaohmThat is it.Jun 29 01:28
oiaohmVala has the light to native platform libraries sorted out.Jun 29 01:29
oiaohmIts just missing a bytecode that is cpu netrual.Jun 29 01:29
oiaohmJava and .net will both disappear into the history books when better tech appears.Jun 29 01:30
oiaohmIts a bit like flash vs html5 lot of places flash is used will disappear.Jun 29 01:31
_Hicham_aren't GTK and QT enough?Jun 29 01:31
oiaohmVala uses GTKJun 29 01:32
fewajava is sloooooowwwwwwJun 29 01:32
_Hicham_do Vala have a chance to spread?Jun 29 01:33
_Hicham_or just stand?Jun 29 01:33
fewai dont know why, but ever java app i have used seems slowJun 29 01:33
fewaeven though the benchmarks for math and such may be highJun 29 01:33
oiaohmVala is particularly design to work great with gnome.Jun 29 01:33
_Hicham_fewa : do u use official sun jvm?Jun 29 01:33
_Hicham_so no Vala with KDEJun 29 01:33
fewai use openjdk, but i have used the official tooJun 29 01:33
ThistleWebnot just slow, but some give you hassle if you're running an older java than it needsJun 29 01:33
oiaohmVala provides like C# syntax around the gobject system _Hicham_Jun 29 01:34
fewaits very unscientificJun 29 01:34
ThistleWebI had no end of probs with Azureus on Windows ages agoJun 29 01:34
oiaohmThere is no reason why C# like syntax could not be put on top of C++ for KDE support.Jun 29 01:34
_Hicham_oiaohm : but I don't see yet any gnome app written in valaJun 29 01:34
fewaughhh yeah ive used azureus beforeJun 29 01:34
oiaohmThere are a few _Hicham_Jun 29 01:34
fewapre vuze daysJun 29 01:34
_Hicham_azureus is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery slowJun 29 01:35
oiaohmVala is younger than mono _Hicham_Jun 29 01:35
fewaand utorrent is very fastJun 29 01:35
ThistleWebutorrent is great on windows, but I found Transmission suits me on LinuxJun 29 01:35
_Hicham_oiaohm : give me an exampleJun 29 01:35
fewai like delugeJun 29 01:35
fewaalotJun 29 01:35
ThistleWebdeluge is niceJun 29 01:35
fewagood client-server capabilitiesJun 29 01:35
fewaand webuiJun 29 01:35
_Hicham_fewa : utorrent runs on Linux?Jun 29 01:35
fewathey officially support wineJun 29 01:35
fewabut i havnt really used it in linuxJun 29 01:36
ThistleWebI found a few niggles with delugeJun 29 01:36
oiaohm  scroll down _Hicham_Jun 29 01:36
ThistleWebafter transmission got blocklist support I jumped shipJun 29 01:36
fewaThistleWeb, which version? <=0.6 or post 0.9 ?Jun 29 01:36
fewadeluge was completely rewrittenJun 29 01:37
ThistleWebtransmission seems faster, with less resourcesJun 29 01:37
fewaboth transmission and deluge are based on libtorrentJun 29 01:37
ThistleWebahh, it was before 0.6 I thinkJun 29 01:37
ThistleWebit may be worth giving it another go thenJun 29 01:37
ThistleWebI had no idea it was rewrittenJun 29 01:37
ThistleWebI do prefer the deluge UIJun 29 01:37
fewaalso the UI and the daemon is seperateJun 29 01:38
ThistleWebsame with transmissionJun 29 01:38
ThistleWebboth have a web ui tooJun 29 01:38
fewai just like the client serverJun 29 01:38
oiaohmAs Vala ages there will be more applications.   Big advanage since Vala is gobject it can build new gobject features for gnome.  _Hicham_  You cannot build new gobject features in mono.Jun 29 01:38
fewaand the utorrent-like interfaceJun 29 01:38
ThistleWebyep, the utorrent UI feels more natural for a torrent clientJun 29 01:39
_Hicham_gobject is greatJun 29 01:39
fewatransmission is probably good for people that only download a distro cd from time to timeJun 29 01:39
_Hicham_i love transmissionJun 29 01:40
_Hicham_oiaohm : what about Google's work on Python?Jun 29 01:41
oiaohmWhen you remember mono is not gobject compadbile does it really have a long time future on the gnome platform.  _Hicham_Jun 29 01:42
oiaohmPython is a heavly used scripting language.  Speeding it up will help lots of applications.Jun 29 01:42
thenixedreport 29 01:42
oiaohmList includes kde plamsa features.Jun 29 01:42
ThistleWeb1 issue I had with deluge is when I have to download a torrent part at a time by selecting only some of it due to HD space, when deluge is paused or restarted it forgets that only part of the file is wanted, looks at the total size and tells me there's no space, and stops. I have to remove it, re-add it, recheck it etc to start againJun 29 01:43
ThistleWebit's been maybe a year since I last tried it, so maybe that's fixedJun 29 01:43
oiaohmthenixedreport: dont depend on mono missed the big problem.Jun 29 01:44
oiaohmMono don't intergrate.   So cannot be used for improving the Gnome platform.  So its a waste of time.Jun 29 01:44
oiaohmFrom a techincally point of view its unless.Jun 29 01:45
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oiaohmIts not what mono developers want to hear that they are wasting there time.Jun 29 01:45
oiaohmNext defence is the java defence its cross platform that is it feature.Jun 29 01:46
oiaohmSorry that does not protect it from being run under.Jun 29 01:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @tracyrreed OMFG. First Michael and now Billy! Someone is systematically knocking off the world's most talented people!Jun 29 01:47
oiaohm  vala is more interesting.  Notice that platform were building a vala coded application does not require vala.Jun 29 01:48
oiaohmYou only require vala if you want to edit the vala code.Jun 29 01:48
_Hicham_no vala runtime?Jun 29 01:48
oiaohmVala has no runtime.Jun 29 01:48
oiaohmAll its runtime parts come from standard gobject bits.Jun 29 01:49
oiaohmSome takes Vala design adds a cross platform byte code and mono is dead in water.Jun 29 01:50
_Hicham_so vala add just c# syntax on top of gobject?Jun 29 01:51
oiaohmYep.Jun 29 01:51
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oiaohmYep repeat for _Hicham_Jun 29 01:53
_Hicham_oiaohm : why distros package mono if there is a risk?Jun 29 01:53
twitterha ha, M$ is pissing on the Enterprise now. 29 01:53
oiaohm  << Look at the benchmarks _Hicham_Jun 29 01:54
twitterpushing the hated Software Assurance plan ->  Silver [the idiot who lied to the EU about Linux] said Microsoft may be limiting the number of PCs eligible for upgrades in order to goose sales of its Software Assurance licenses to businesses. Under Software Assurance, companies pay between $100 and $150 per PC for the right to unlimited upgrades at no additional cost for three years.Jun 29 01:55
twitterM$ shill says, "demand Vista 7"Jun 29 01:56
_Hicham_wowJun 29 01:56
_Hicham_the vala is really fastJun 29 01:56
oiaohm_Hicham_: basically mono people pushing mono is the only reason distrobutions puting it in.Jun 29 01:56
_Hicham_the crazy Miguel de Icaza?Jun 29 01:56
oiaohmAnd others.Jun 29 01:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More on Microsoft-funded Comments 29 01:57
oiaohmVala at this stage only produces native binaries.Jun 29 01:57
oiaohmIf it ever starts being a bytecode mono is so dead.Jun 29 01:57
_Hicham_why do we need a bytecode?Jun 29 01:58
oiaohmCPU neturality.Jun 29 01:58
oiaohmAnd size.Jun 29 01:58
oiaohmSource code takes lot of processing time.Jun 29 01:58
oiaohmIf you could ship like gcc internal bytecode with still cpu netural of the executable processing to native would be faster.Jun 29 01:59
jose_Xtwitter, i don't know how, but i expect ms's eu upgrade decision has more to it than what they ms claims are the reasons.Jun 29 02:00
oiaohmGcc and llvm with link time optimisation both open up a path around mono.Jun 29 02:00
oiaohmFor cross platform support from a single file.  But with far better platform intergration.Jun 29 02:01
twitterM$ never comes clean.Jun 29 02:01
oiaohmTime will kill .net.Jun 29 02:01
ThistleWebI'm guessing the plan is to introduce false scarcity, tipping your hand into fighting for some extra value as you'll believe you'll have to upgrade anyway, so why not nowJun 29 02:01
twitterit's always worse than you hear or readJun 29 02:01
jose_Xoiaohm, i am surprised in all of these years a gcc IR to compete with mono/java hasn't been developedJun 29 02:02
ThistleWebif you had to wheel and deal for something it gives you a sense that you gained somethingJun 29 02:02
jose_Xi guess there is no sponsor for this with sufficient interestJun 29 02:02
ThistleWebthat report also states that Microsoft are imposing the resitrictions, but encourage buisnesses to haggle with OEMs who have leeway; in other words take it out of the OEMs pocket, not MicrosoftsJun 29 02:03
jose_Xms also painted the eu commission as responsible.. any supposed pain or costs because of this decision might lead to rallying behind ms -- so ms might hope.Jun 29 02:04
oiaohmjose_X: there is interest problem is internals of gcc.Jun 29 02:05
jose_X"i guess there is no sponsor for this with sufficient interest" this comment was wrt gcc/vala etc and not the ms eu ie8 upgrade issueJun 29 02:05
ThistleWebthe EU haven't stayed shtum though, they've said to any pro-M$ shills in interviews that Microsoft jumped the gun with IE, that unbundlung was never an option the EU were considering, and that decision along with all it's ripples is Microsoft's aloneJun 29 02:06
oiaohmBefore you can make a platform netural byte code you need lto to work with gcc basically jose_XJun 29 02:06
jose_Xlto?Jun 29 02:06
oiaohmPlatform netural byte code would speed up distribution multi platform building no need.Jun 29 02:06
ThistleWebI should have said "a Windows without any browser" was never an option they were looking atJun 29 02:07
oiaohmlto=link time optimisation.Jun 29 02:07
oiaohmIts a branch of gcc jose_XJun 29 02:07
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oiaohmYou think about all the build time that could be saved building items like libc to a platform netural byte code performing all the platform netural optmisations.Jun 29 02:08
oiaohmThen converting that platform netural bytecode to the platform target.Jun 29 02:08
jose_XrightJun 29 02:09
oiaohmThere is lot of interest.Jun 29 02:09
oiaohmMaking it work not simple.Jun 29 02:09
jose_Xi don't follow gcc but i thought the mono controversy way back would have led to something happening from gccJun 29 02:09
oiaohmIt did.Jun 29 02:09
oiaohmThat is when how bad the internals of gcc was found.Jun 29 02:10
oiaohmLot of work trying to fix the mess has been going on.Jun 29 02:10
jose_Xi figure that all the building work that happens anyway just needs to be packaged properlyJun 29 02:10
jose_XohJun 29 02:10
oiaohmBy design gcc was meant to have a central data struct.Jun 29 02:11
oiaohmBut many hacky patches over the years for c++ c and so on had been applied that did not use the central data struct.Jun 29 02:11
jose_Xhow do things look nowJun 29 02:12
oiaohmIe the mess.Jun 29 02:12
oiaohmThe developers are now working on cleaning it up.Jun 29 02:12
oiaohmWithout the mess gcc would have nailed mono to the wall by now.Jun 29 02:13
jose_Xi read some pieces trying to describe gcc internals (from their website). this gives the impression things were/are organized and clean enough to have started a format and protocolJun 29 02:13
jose_X.. by nowJun 29 02:14
oiaohmIts not completeJun 29 02:14
jose_Xbut i guess things really were messierJun 29 02:14
oiaohmThey are still moving to a central protocal.Jun 29 02:14
oiaohmIt will become well organized in time.Jun 29 02:14
oiaohmThe Linux kernel is also going threw a organisational clean up.Jun 29 02:15
oiaohmWhen lto branch merges main line you will know the internals of gcc are clean jose_X.Jun 29 02:16
jose_Xthanks oiaohm ....Jun 29 02:17
oiaohmBasically each version of gcc is getting cleaner.Jun 29 02:19
oiaohmUntil one day it will be clean.Jun 29 02:20
oiaohm  Number 10 on there todo list is to be able to read gimple the internal bytecode of gcc as a input file.Jun 29 02:22
_Hicham_when link time optimization is gonna be implementedJun 29 02:26
jose_Xi guess the gcc people prefer solving the problem well rather than according to marketing.Jun 29 02:29
jose_Xnot to say there aren't problems, but it looks like they are trying to get decent mileage out of their effortsJun 29 02:31
jose_Xbang for buck is what I am getting atJun 29 02:33
_Hicham_everyone is contributing to gccJun 29 02:35
_Hicham_biggest contributor is RedHatJun 29 02:35
_Hicham_in corporate fieldJun 29 02:35
jose_Xi'm looking at these from the outside. "marketing" can drive projects to completion. you make compromises along the way but you get a product quickerJun 29 02:37
jose_Xalso, foss groups like to contribute.. vs. compete (copy) for the sake of competing to make someone else's bucks or preserve your income streamJun 29 02:38
jose_Xred hat also takes the slower path .. or they would not be major contributors of so many projects and would be looking for more and more hooksJun 29 02:39
_Hicham_what do u mean by the slower path?Jun 29 02:40
jose_X"it will be done when it is done"Jun 29 02:41
jose_Xmeaning, it we will try to let developers guide the project instead of marketingJun 29 02:41
jose_Xi'm not speaking specifically for redhat but for foss more generallyJun 29 02:42
_Hicham_I seeJun 29 02:42
_Hicham_Ubuntu is focusing on marketing moreJun 29 02:42
jose_Xwell, i am looking at this from the outside but developers can usually make better judgments over tech aspects than can marketingJun 29 02:43
_Hicham_I like to see that a product is done when it is doneJun 29 02:43
jose_Xmarketing adds further constraints. the less constraints, the more can be achievedJun 29 02:43
_Hicham_Fedora has a fixed release cycleJun 29 02:43
_Hicham_nonetheless, it has been delayed many timesJun 29 02:44
jose_Xalso, try to rush artists can you can end up with a messJun 29 02:44
jose_Xa lot of software is not scientific (especially when you push bound) but instead benefits from creativity and timeJun 29 02:44
_Hicham_Fedora has the greatest artworkJun 29 02:45
jose_Xthe cycle might be fixed, but they can cut back on what goes in or simply be less ambitiousJun 29 02:45
_Hicham_Ideally, desktop distributions should follow Fedora modelJun 29 02:45
jose_Xrhat and noncommercial entities have less pressures from marketing and stockholders.. especially to sacrifice long term quality for short term resultsJun 29 02:45
_Hicham_I hate distros that just package thingsJun 29 02:46
jose_Xi think most people that come up with a distro that would be popular are contributing/ adding value beyond repackaging.Jun 29 02:47
twitterdistros are repackagingJun 29 02:48
twitterwhy do you hate people who do what they should?Jun 29 02:48
_Hicham_twitter : packaging should be followed by contributionsJun 29 02:49
_Hicham_and upstreaming patchesJun 29 02:49
twitterthose come as they doJun 29 02:49
twittertake what it givesJun 29 02:50
twittergive what you like, it's all so easyJun 29 02:51
_Hicham_the big contributors are RedHat and NovellJun 29 02:51
_Hicham_those are the entities that make up the Linux ecosystemJun 29 02:51
twitterWhat does Novell contribute?Jun 29 02:52
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_Hicham_twitter : 29 02:54
jose_Xbacktracking for a second: rht depends on marketing and stockholders but they don't own gcc..Jun 29 02:58
twitternice.  What I see there is that about 80,000 of the 100,000 kernel patches come from individuals rather than distributions or companies.  This is as free software should be.Jun 29 02:58
_Hicham_no one owns gccJun 29 02:58
fewa_Hicham_, you neglect the community distrobutionJun 29 02:58
fewaits the comminity of the distro that submits patchesJun 29 02:59
_Hicham_fewa : I was talking just about corporate contributionsJun 29 02:59
_Hicham_not about community contributionsJun 29 02:59
fewathats the main problem with ubuntuJun 29 02:59
fewathey keep internal way to many of their changesJun 29 02:59
twitterThere will always be more free software users than there are people who work for distributions.Jun 29 02:59
twitterStatements like, "(07:08:50 PM) _Hicham_: the big contributors are RedHat and Novell" miss the point of software freedom.Jun 29 03:00
_Hicham_twitter : Big contributors in corporate areaJun 29 03:00
fewa_Hicham_, RedHat hires those who contribute, not the other way aroundJun 29 03:00
twitterSure, but "big" is still less than 19,000.Jun 29 03:00
_Hicham_community contributions make up the most of LinuxJun 29 03:00
twitterrightJun 29 03:01
_Hicham_compared to total contributions, yesJun 29 03:01
_Hicham_in corporate field, it means a lotJun 29 03:01
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twitterHmmm.  Novell may be a "big contributor" but they are an enemy of software freedom.Jun 29 03:25
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twitterwow, big upgrade for Lenny.  141 packages and 231 MB of downloads for me.  Whew.Jun 29 03:42
twittersupposedly described here 29 03:42
twitteralso noted here 29 03:43
twitterI've been lazy.Jun 29 03:44
jose_XgnJun 29 03:59
twitterAcer sold out.  This is older news, but I missed it. 29 04:04
twitterDual boot instead of a simple Android only option.Jun 29 04:05
fewa wow, very interesting on the security problems of javascriptJun 29 04:13
fewaand about the greasemonkey sandboxJun 29 04:13
twitterNow I see why some sites have been screwing up.Jun 29 04:18
twitterHere's an example. 29 04:18
twitterthe java script for the advertisement is ugly and hangs konqueror, Epiphany and Iceweasel in Lenny.Jun 29 04:19
twitterThe answer for it was netsurf, a browser much like dillo was.Jun 29 04:19
oiaohmI am running iceweasel from unstable branch.Jun 29 04:24
twitterhmmm, as I suspected, an article that comes with problems for konq is not worth reading.Jun 29 04:24
oiaohmMy current debian is part way between lenny testing and unstable.Jun 29 04:27
oiaohmA state most people are not aware you can do.Jun 29 04:27
fewatwitter, try my adblock element hiding stuffJun 29 04:28 > :not(#middlewrapper)Jun 29 04:28 > :not(#content-main)Jun 29 04:28 > :not(.story-body):not(#story-social):not(.title):not(.story-byline)Jun 29 04:28
fewanot sure if KHTML has good support for :notJun 29 04:29
fewaperhaps i should publish my listJun 29 04:30
oiaohmI refer to debian stable.  As the predictable buggy.Jun 29 04:30
fewaoiaohm, thats the other problem with ubuntu, they only compile to the current systemJun 29 04:31
fewathey have no art of dependanciesJun 29 04:31
twitterI just noticed what macnews world was advertising, crystalreportsJun 29 04:31
fewaand they also change version nuber to have profixes which screw up mixing with debianJun 29 04:31 29 04:31
fewai could also make a quick script to hide all those ECT pre-rollsJun 29 04:32
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*sean is now known as SeanTilleyJun 29 05:22
SeanTilleyHey hey.Jun 29 05:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Week has begun... and so does the battle ;)Jun 29 05:37
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SeanTilleyWow, it's already Monday.Jun 29 05:52
SeanTilleyLame.Jun 29 05:52
SeanTilleySo is it relatively easy to build Chromium with HTML5 video support?Jun 29 05:54
SeanTilleyI'm thinking of replacing my Firefox on my laptop since the binary was way speedier, I'm just curious about compiling it all from source.Jun 29 05:54
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twitterThe Journal company that created fake journals to sell drugs that killed people also pays for shill reviews ->  It's no surprise that the recent actions of science publisher Elsevier caused a storm. The firm offered a $25 (£15) Amazon voucher to academics who contributed to the textbook Clinical Psychology if they would go on Amazon and Barnes & Noble (a large US books retailer) and give it five stars. Elsevier was quick to disown Jun 29 06:06
twitter 29 06:07
twittershamelessJun 29 06:07
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twitterGo directly to jail. 29 06:13
twitterahhh, ->  Unthinkable blurs the line between fiction and reality, the story is based on a real-life government think tank where a writer was tasked to design worst-case terror scenarios. The fictional story of Unthinkable unfolds when the writer's scenarios come true, and he becomes a suspect in the terrorist attacks.Jun 29 06:30
twitterThe author was detained as a terrorist for having a script of the above story.  Reality dumber than a comic book. 29 06:31
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fewaunjustifyable coercionJun 29 07:41
fewatwitter, Chomsky analyses this wellJun 29 07:46
fewaoh its in pt 4Jun 29 07:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Prepares a Bogus Study to Defend Abandonment of American Workforce 29 07:57
schestowitzCoercionForToddlers(R)Jun 29 08:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Anti-competitive Dumping of Software Faces Challenges in Africa and in Indiana 29 08:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows and Advertising 29 09:22
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amarsh04hmm... swine flu vaccine trial volunteers wanted: 29 09:51
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schestowitzThey should recruit swines.Jun 29 10:04
amarsh04hehehe... I might try to volunteer schestowitz... I did volunteer last year and it was reasonable, they even gave me a cheque for $50 for my troublesJun 29 10:07
schestowitzI wonder at what capacity will it be possible to publish in Datamation. I know it has been a long time since I last wrote anything...Jun 29 10:08
schestowitzMaybe I'll get back to it soon. It's summer, so there's free time for itJun 29 10:08
schestowitzamarsh04: did you really get troubles?Jun 29 10:08
amarsh04no side effects, just the trouble of turning up for injections and blood samples being takenJun 29 10:09
amarsh04I've been disappointed that some articles in IEEE spectrum have not be rigorous, making claims that weren't backed by dataJun 29 10:10
schestowitzMaybe cheapening of researchJun 29 10:11
schestowitzSame happens to newsJun 29 10:11
schestowitzIn the past you had teams/convoys doing invetigationsJun 29 10:11
schestowitzNow it's too expensive to be worth itJun 29 10:11
schestowitz"Dark Clouds over the Gates Foundation" is one exampleJun 29 10:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Assault on the Web, Rival Web Browsers, and HTML 29 10:12
schestowitz"[PJ: Speaking of litigation as an underhanded anticompetitive weapon, here's UserFriendly back in 2007, on a new job for Darl.] - UserFriendly" 29 10:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] What People Say About Microsoft’s Alleged Anti-Linux Lawsuit (via T3) 29 10:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] mmm, brains. a good day to hide inside from the furious daystar.Jun 29 11:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and Novell Still Fight for .NET Inside GNU/Linux 29 11:37
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ziggyfishschestowitz, thanks for the mention :)Jun 29 12:10
schestowitzNo problemJun 29 12:10
schestowitzDid they really cancel it?Jun 29 12:10
schestowitzI read it twice, failed to make such a convictionJun 29 12:10
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harrytuttlehelloJun 29 12:29
schestowitzHeyJun 29 12:30
harrytuttleis now another software client for irc?Jun 29 12:30
schestowitzyesJun 29 12:30
schestowitzold one closedJun 29 12:30
harrytuttleharder to read nowJun 29 12:30
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schestowitzIt has just occurred to me that no Linspire/Xandros desktops are ever releasedJun 29 12:33
schestowitzMicrosoft shut them down as proper distributorsJun 29 12:33
taconeuh ?Jun 29 12:34
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ziggyfishschestowitz, I think they didJun 29 12:36
harrytuttleas for Mono: imho it's not really helpful in the long run to ponder on its bloatware... it might be true, but then same could be said about Eclipse... Mono and MonoDev do scratch a technical itch and it will even get better over time with MS sponsoring in the background to work on itJun 29 12:37
oiaohmIf you take the ideas why .net was created they are good.  Implementation suxs big time.Jun 29 12:38
harrytuttletechnical defiencies could be overcome, the political ones probably stay the sameJun 29 12:38
oiaohmNot really harrytuttleJun 29 12:38
oiaohmvala over comes the technical defiencies.Jun 29 12:38
oiaohmBut its no longer .net standard.Jun 29 12:39
harrytuttleso to me of you follow bn over time, its becoming clear that the most valid point why Mono should be rejected lies in MS-specific behaviourJun 29 12:40
oiaohmProcessor independent bytecode is a good idea.  But a processor independant bytecode that requires complex wrappers to interface with platform native bits is basically useless.Jun 29 12:40
oiaohmThe idea of a processor independant bytecode would be great in gcc.Jun 29 12:41
harrytuttlethe behaviour to threat over their patentsJun 29 12:41
harrytuttlethey cant threat effectively over Java, as it would be seen as another SCOJun 29 12:41
ziggyfishI'm getting a new PC (Dell Studio XPS Desktop (S210303AU)), one of the components (Dell 1505 Wireless-N PCIe Card (802.11 a/b/g/n compliant) ) doesn't seem to work with LinuxJun 29 12:41
harrytuttlethey can only threat by casting FUD over what the public perceives as their ownJun 29 12:41
oiaohmTechnical defiencies of .net and java are that bad they only way to cure them is create something that works.Jun 29 12:41
harrytuttlelike FATJun 29 12:42
oiaohmFAT will be come a no issue soon enough.Jun 29 12:42
ziggyfishI complained to them on the 27/06/2009, and still haven't receive a responseJun 29 12:42
oiaohmLinux kernel developers have worked out a way to use it avoiding using patented sections.Jun 29 12:42
harrytuttlejava or gnu/linux doesnt "belong" to them even if they do own patents related to themJun 29 12:42
harrytuttlewith .Net, the image is more of a copyright thing when FUDing "IP"Jun 29 12:43
oiaohmMono fails on 2 grounds.Jun 29 12:43
tabletopThe base technologies submitted to the ECMA, and therefore also the Unix/GNOME-specific parts, may be non-problematic. The concerns primarily relate to technologies developed my Microsoft on top of the .NET Framework, suck as ASP.NET, ADO, NET and Windows Forms. Ie parts composing Mono’s Windows compatibility stack. These technologies are today not fully implemented in Mono and not required for developing Mono-applicatJun 29 12:43
harrytuttlerightJun 29 12:43
oiaohmUnknown patent state and incompadible design.Jun 29 12:43 works around the idea of PE format executables.Jun 29 12:44
harrytuttleso if mono wants to be competetive, it has to incorporate those non-covered technologies somehowJun 29 12:44
oiaohmThat are not native Linux executables.Jun 29 12:44
oiaohmSo don't intergrate.Jun 29 12:44
MinceR"submitted to the ECMA" by itself means very little, afaikJun 29 12:44
harrytuttlerisking patent FUDJun 29 12:44
tabletopyes on windowsJun 29 12:44
tabletopthats right there are part not submittedJun 29 12:44
oiaohmharrytuttle: you create a standard there is no need to keep patent status secret.Jun 29 12:44
ziggyfishI'll see if I get a response before I get the PCJun 29 12:45
tabletopThats right they are the "non-standard" or undocumentated API'sJun 29 12:45
oiaohmHistory of patent creators and keeping patent status secrect.Jun 29 12:45
oiaohmOn standardsJun 29 12:45
oiaohmIs particularly bad.Jun 29 12:45
harrytuttlei think Mono gives MS not more "real" chances to sue than over Java-patents, but the perception that this is something leggit for MS to sue over and bully corporations may be much betterJun 29 12:45
oiaohmSun openly stated the patent status of java.Jun 29 12:46
schestowitzoracle won't sue LinuxJun 29 12:46
schestowitzOracle is to own JavaJun 29 12:46
harrytuttlethey dont want to go length in court (as with FAT and TomTom), but they want to extort and FUD the competition without being viewed as SCOJun 29 12:46
oiaohmAnd that they would not apply there patents against anyone implementing java for ever.Jun 29 12:46
schestowitzAnd Ellison, as I pointed out hours ago, slammed Microsoft for the SCO thingJun 29 12:46
oiaohmOracle could not even take that back now.Jun 29 12:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: OIN Addresses Patent Trolls Issue, Public Patent Foundation Video, and More 29 12:47
oiaohmPatent status of java is known harrytuttleJun 29 12:47
oiaohmWe are not asking for anything that complex really.Jun 29 12:47
oiaohmAll press releases from MS suggest Novell is the only one with a valid licence to ship mono.Jun 29 12:47
oiaohmIf that is incorrect press releases MS or Novell could publish a correction.Jun 29 12:48
oiaohmSo its not patent fud.Jun 29 12:48
oiaohmIts a case of neither MS or Novell stepping up and clearing the issue up. harrytuttleJun 29 12:48
schestowitzYes, even Miguel worries about itJun 29 12:49
tabletopwhich may be their plan (of attack)Jun 29 12:49
schestowitzHe knows it's damagingJun 29 12:49
harrytuttleyep, they want the other dist to become infectedJun 29 12:49
schestowitzbut Novell and MS won't clarifyJun 29 12:49
schestowitzServes them wellJun 29 12:50
schestowitzLike SCO's reluctance to show the so-called plagiarismJun 29 12:50
schestowitzFUD is in the details, not 'the' detailsJun 29 12:50
oiaohmReally it will not matter long term.Jun 29 12:50
harrytuttleyes, it serves them like FAT to bully the competetion later... not actually sue this thing in courtJun 29 12:50
oiaohmMono people got upset over gnote because it showed how fast a c# application could be ported.Jun 29 12:50
harrytuttleif no white knight steps in for debian, then whatJun 29 12:51
schestowitzoiaohm: also how fast it runsJun 29 12:51
harrytuttleany other projects besides gnote to be ported over?Jun 29 12:51
schestowitzLike 10 times faster to launch are far less RAMJun 29 12:51 is following the same cycle java did a long time ago.Jun 29 12:51
schestowitzBasically, it's side-by-side proof that Mono (/Tomboy) is a resource pigJun 29 12:51
oiaohmRemember when java was popular.Jun 29 12:51
tacone gnome 3.0 to include more mono apps ?Jun 29 12:52
schestowitzoiaohm: it still isJun 29 12:52
oiaohmPeople were running around saying it would do everything.Jun 29 12:52
schestowitzMost popular in factJun 29 12:52
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oiaohmMany years latter that faded.Jun 29 12:52
harrytuttlebut then if Mono starts to become leggit for devs, all those apps that could flood gnome or kde cant be ported overJun 29 12:52
oiaohmMono simply cannot.Jun 29 12:52
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oiaohmVala from gnome as it matures will basically beat the crap out of .net on speed and performance while basically being C# like language.Jun 29 12:53
harrytuttleit needs to be kept in a cage, and not run freely defaultJun 29 12:53
oiaohmMono will be pushed a side by better tech.Jun 29 12:53
harrytuttleoiaohm: i wouldnt bet on a superiour technology , because only what is widespread and well-known accepted will pervail... if we happen to let mono become a useful tool to the ones who dont careJun 29 12:54
harrytuttlethen other technologies become irrelevant (betamax, vhs)Jun 29 12:54
oiaohmSpeed of applications is always important.Jun 29 12:55
oiaohmJust like price of tapes.Jun 29 12:55
harrytuttlemono matures with the resources from ms/novellJun 29 12:55
ziggyfishoiaohm, I believe money is more importantJun 29 12:55
harrytuttlealso convienience for the programmersJun 29 12:56
harrytuttleif its default and comes with a nice frontend / ide, then people will use it moreJun 29 12:56
ziggyfishif Microsoft can't make money out of Linux, it will simply force costs on LinuxJun 29 12:56
oiaohmVala provides the same kind of language convienience to programmers.Jun 29 12:56
harrytuttlewell, python does, but its the ide that could prove really nice alsoJun 29 12:57
ziggyfishoiaohm, Vala, know of any documentation on the LanguageJun 29 12:57
harrytuttleits the "whole package": runtime, nice "integration", monodevJun 29 12:57
oiaohm 29 12:57
oiaohmVala skips the runtime bit harrytuttleJun 29 12:58
oiaohmAnd its lining up to use monodevelop as one of its development frontends.Jun 29 12:58
harrytuttlethen marketing: everyone at least knows .NETJun 29 12:59
oiaohmSorry mono has no intergration advantage.Jun 29 12:59
oiaohmMarketing is the only card .net has.Jun 29 12:59
harrytuttleoiaohm: i know, but some people make sure by inlcuding it and make stuff dependant that it doesJun 29 12:59
MinceRnot everyone knows c and c++ now? :>Jun 29 12:59
oiaohmVala also will make it simpler to port .net applications.Jun 29 13:00
oiaohmaway from .net.Jun 29 13:00
harrytuttlevala is like gnu/linux: starting as superiour tech but takes forever to beat something backed up and marketed like -netJun 29 13:00
oiaohmMono intergrating with llvm also threatens to under mine .net as well.Jun 29 13:00
oiaohmVala is cross platform harrytuttleJun 29 13:01
MinceRharrytuttle: gnu/linux is winning already :>Jun 29 13:01
oiaohmit does work on windows and mac already.Jun 29 13:01
oiaohmSimple raw performance it runs rings around .net.Jun 29 13:01
harrytuttleis android opensource?Jun 29 13:02
oiaohmVala is younger tech.Jun 29 13:02
ziggyfishyesJun 29 13:02
oiaohmSo Vala has not had as much time to get marketed.Jun 29 13:02
oiaohmAndroid is fully open source.Jun 29 13:02
harrytuttlezig: what license?Jun 29 13:02
oiaohmBSD and GPL harrytuttleJun 29 13:02
harrytuttleso if google would abondon it someone could pcik it up and market it under  another name?Jun 29 13:03
oiaohmKernel alterations for android are going main line Linux.Jun 29 13:03
tabletopthats where the patent issues will come in its with .NET which is basically a library of functions written in C#, if you create those functions in any language you may be breaching a patent.Jun 29 13:03
tabletopSo if you can use C# and wwrite your own .NET suite you "might" be ok.. i don knowJun 29 13:04
oiaohmVala has major advantages for gnome over mono.Jun 29 13:04
ziggyfishtabletop, I'm worried about the same type of issue, although Vala is not Mono, it may still be breaching patentsJun 29 13:05
oiaohmSince Vala is purely based around the gobject system it perfectly intergrates into gnome.Jun 29 13:05
taconeno, android is not fully opensource.Jun 29 13:05
oiaohmWhat is closed taconeJun 29 13:05
tabletopthats right you can breach those patents with any languageJun 29 13:05
taconethey claim to have some binary blobs here and thereJun 29 13:05
oiaohmSome drivers.Jun 29 13:05
taconethat was from a google guy, i don't remember where I read that.Jun 29 13:06
oiaohmNothing that you require to create something compadible with android.Jun 29 13:06
taconeoiaohm: also 29 13:06
taconesure, needed things are open sourced.Jun 29 13:06
ziggyfishthere are some closed source stuff in androidJun 29 13:07
oiaohmLinux has some closed source part options as well.Jun 29 13:08
ziggyfishit was thought, that is would allow google to control androidJun 29 13:08
ziggyfishoiaohm, trueJun 29 13:08
oiaohmI class android as fully open source due to the fact you can build a clone off android from what is provided.Jun 29 13:09
ziggyfishtryeJun 29 13:09
oiaohmFew closed source features lost here and there.  Nothing that blocks application compadiblity.Jun 29 13:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Louie is on Cbeebies. It's a French cartoon dubbed into English. There's a snail character with a bad fake French accent. WHY??Jun 29 13:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNOME’s Evolution Proceeds as Planned? < >Jun 29 13:12
schestowitzThe Economics of Privacy in Social Networks 29 13:15
MinceRit's java-only crap currently anywayJun 29 13:17
oiaohmNot quite.Jun 29 13:18
oiaohmYou can use a little native code on it.  Google is softerning.Jun 29 13:18
taconegoogle released a sdk for native code recentlyJun 29 13:19
taconeyou don't even need anymore to hack the bad wayJun 29 13:19
MinceRyes, a little. embedded into java code.Jun 29 13:19
taconewell, you can hack it as normal linux systemJun 29 13:19
MinceRso no c, no c++, no x11, no GPEJun 29 13:19
oiaohmC and C++ yes.Jun 29 13:20
schestowitzA Wandering Mind Heads Straight Toward Insight  < >Jun 29 13:20
taconethe desktop environment is java only yes.Jun 29 13:20
MinceRyes, you can hack it, but that won't make their apis available to your apps.Jun 29 13:20
taconebut you can script it in LUA and pythonJun 29 13:20
MinceRso you can't do anything with the phone or sms or gps or the compassJun 29 13:20
taconewell, i guess that using the ndk can solve that.Jun 29 13:21
taconesure the code is wrapped into java but should be fast anyways.Jun 29 13:21
oiaohmGoogle wants the applications for android to be processor netural.Jun 29 13:21
MinceRwell, maybe you can get away with a java app interfacing you with the apis.Jun 29 13:22
MinceRbut it's a horrible messJun 29 13:22
oiaohmAndroid will be interesting to watch it play out.Jun 29 13:22
MinceRi wish they got some clue and cleaned up the design.Jun 29 13:22
oiaohmLot of the issue is a lack of a processor netrual bytecode for c and c++Jun 29 13:22
MinceRthey could move the api to something sane and layer the java api on top of it, like everyone with a clue does.Jun 29 13:22
MinceRi don't see what all the processor-neutrality is about when everybody is using ARM anyway.Jun 29 13:23
oiaohmThere is really a large gap in the world for processor netrual.Jun 29 13:23
oiaohmSorry its arm or mips MinceRJun 29 13:23
oiaohmDepending on the devices you are building.Jun 29 13:23
oiaohmAlso android also works on x86.Jun 29 13:23
MinceRthere's a MIPS android device already?Jun 29 13:23
oiaohmPrototype yes.Jun 29 13:23
MinceRso no :>Jun 29 13:23
tabletopthats because C and C++ compile to machine code, C# and Java and a "JIT" type thing.Jun 29 13:24
MinceRandroid might work on x86, but there's not much point to it precisely because it's dumbe ddownJun 29 13:24
MinceRs/ dd/d d/Jun 29 13:24
oiaohmOk little correction tabletopJun 29 13:24
taconethere *many* prototypesJun 29 13:24
oiaohmMS C# uses AOTJun 29 13:24
oiaohmnot JITJun 29 13:24
tabletopthats why I said "type" thingJun 29 13:25
oiaohmgcc uses a procesor netural bytecode internally for optimisation processing of C and C++Jun 29 13:25
oiaohmBefore entering the machine code.Jun 29 13:25
tabletopand intermediate layer that is platform neutral (and cpu neutral asl well)Jun 29 13:25
oiaohmThere is no reason why C and C++ cannot be made cpu netural.Jun 29 13:25
tabletopyes, most C compilers use a 2 pass method with a common intermediate codeJun 29 13:26
oiaohmC and C++ with correct libs are already platform netural.Jun 29 13:26
MinceRLLVM does that already, doesn't it?Jun 29 13:26
oiaohmllvm does not have and offical standard for its bytecode.Jun 29 13:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Does the EPO understand the internet, Why do they forbid direct links to the EBA referral documents on swpats? 29 13:27
oiaohmllvm could do it basically.Jun 29 13:27
oiaohmIts just a lack of a standard lower down than CIL in .net that covers all the C and C++ functionality.Jun 29 13:29
schestowitz "It got me thinking: how about setting up a database - a surveillance of surveillance database - that has pictures and locations of CCTVs in the UK? It could be crowd sourced, and anonymous, solving problems of scaling and legal issues. If nothing else, it would put the watchers on notice that they are being watched...."Jun 29 13:29
schestowitz 29 13:35
ziggyfishanyway time to go to la la land, good night :PJun 29 13:37
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oiaohm  << Also that code exists to remap gcc internal bytecode to another bytecode and back again.  It would not be impossiable in time to make gcc create cpu netual bytecode.Jun 29 13:39
schestowitzPirate Bay starts video streaming < >Jun 29 13:39
schestowitzAnti-TPB slant, as usual from the MSBBC.Jun 29 13:40
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schestowitzThis is silly: 29 13:43
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schestowitzIt makes it seem like Microsoft was 'the' DOS companyJun 29 13:44
schestowitz"Britney Spears's Twitter account has been hacked again - this time around the fake microblogging update falsely reported that the troubled warbler was dead." 29 13:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.5 set to land tomorrow 29 13:47
tabletop"someone come up with an open sauce" :)Jun 29 13:47
schestowitzI wonder how many fans criedJun 29 13:47
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schestowitzSamsung ML-1640 mono laser printer [not THAT Mono..] 29 13:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Oracle hits DoJ roadblock on Sun deal < >Jun 29 13:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hypephone costs just under $200 to make, yet people pay premium for an Apple logo 29 13:52
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz people pay twice the price because the apple logo promises a gadget whose interface won't make them want to smash it to bits.Jun 29 14:02
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schestowitzIt's /so/ humid here todayJun 29 14:10
schestowitzNational/emergency or crisis they called it on the radio here in MancJun 29 14:10
schestowitzNo A/CsJun 29 14:11
ThistleWebthe UK is a strange place weather wise, ya can't build infrastructure for changable weatherJun 29 14:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Horrible day :(...and the loosing streak continues....bohooo :'(Jun 29 14:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nandanator] Time zone difference is AN IMPORTANT thing .... Should always look at Zone Tick ...Jun 29 14:12
schestowitzA drought ~3 years ago wiped out a portion of the elderly French populationJun 29 14:12
ThistleWebI'm betting some were rubbing their hands at how much they'd savedJun 29 14:12
tabletopI think it was a heat waveJun 29 14:13
ThistleWebnot to mention looking into how it could "accidentally" happen againJun 29 14:13
ThistleWebheatwaves in themseleves are not the problem, it's the infrastructure not being set up to cope when they occur that's the problemJun 29 14:14
ThistleWebwhich is a problem is countries with wildly changing weather, ya can't build for everythingJun 29 14:14
tabletopyes, if the power goes off, or no A/C they have to find somewhere that has got it.Jun 29 14:14
ThistleWebcountries wil long term strong heat have infrastructure to copeJun 29 14:15
ThistleWebbecause they couldn't live there otherwiseJun 29 14:15
ThistleWebthey also have a populace who respect the weather, unlike us brits "who needs suntan lotion?"Jun 29 14:16
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ThistleWebmost countries around the world have a concept of "respecting the weather", it's something we brits seem rather deficient atJun 29 14:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] 9.10 ready on CD, all files copied off this thing. About to try. I may be some time.Jun 29 14:27
twitterM$ is the DoS company, Denial of Service that is.Jun 29 14:35
schestowitzNo, these are the clientsJun 29 14:36
schestowitzMicrosoft only offers the tools for DOS (Windows)Jun 29 14:36
schestowitzPlug it in and Windows starts DOS (denial of service)Jun 29 14:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The giant which is China grows fast: "China adds more deals to global asset shopping spree" 29 14:37
schestowitzUbuntu, Mono dan Free Software… 29 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Wikipedia User GDallimore removing my comment about EPO links: 29 14:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Added "broken link to the EPO website" to the Wikipedia page about the Software Patent referral: 29 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ah, Change! "White House Is Drafting Executive Order to Allow Indefinite Detention; Move Would Bypass Congress" 29 14:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] French fishermen hit back at stars' bid to save bluefin tuna 29 14:57
schestowitzGreenpeace Opposes Waxman-Markey 29 14:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] FBI compounds mystery with secret justification of gag order < >Jun 29 15:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Show Britain is on the right side by barring torture, say security experts < >Jun 29 15:02
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twitterThe M$ mono intern blithers on -> " While you can waste your life thinking you can bring down a huge company like MS I only ask that you don’t hurt a good intentioned product like Mono."Jun 29 15:21
twitterM$ takes down itself.Jun 29 15:21
twitterLOL at "good intentioned Mono"Jun 29 15:22
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_Hicham_Hi All!Jun 29 15:23
MinceRlet's hurt the evil-intentioned mono, then.Jun 29 15:24
nicktasticI don't recall this being about "bring[ing] down a huge company like MS"Jun 29 15:25
nicktasticbut rather about keeping MS from taking down Linux companies.Jun 29 15:25
_Hicham_we have to take down MSJun 29 15:26
MinceRbringing m$ down would be nice thoughJun 29 15:26
_Hicham_to fully profit from the marketJun 29 15:26
MinceRi doubt they'll let us exist if we don't.Jun 29 15:26
nicktasticGood luck with thatJun 29 15:26
MinceRthanks.Jun 29 15:26
_Hicham_Me and MinceR are gonna take down MSJun 29 15:26
_Hicham_isn't it MinceR?Jun 29 15:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Presentation about UPLS and EU software patents v3.0 at HSF2009 in some minutes: 29 15:27
MinceRit isn't just the two of us.Jun 29 15:27
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schestowitznicktastic: indeed, it's about Microsoft trying to "whack" companiesJun 29 15:34
schestowitzThey killed Linpspire... and Xandros desktopJun 29 15:34
schestowitzThe 'patented' desktopsJun 29 15:34
schestowitzHad Microsoft made Linux not a viable option, it would be able to charge at tariffs on par with Apple's (+hardware)Jun 29 15:35
schestowitzLinux forces Microsoft to give Windows away everywhere but rich marketsJun 29 15:35
*nicktastic nodsJun 29 15:36
schestowitzLinux has been hugely successful at suffocating MS on desktops and servers.Jun 29 15:36
schestowitzMicrosoft borrows money now. It's running out of time and lays off engineersJun 29 15:36
*popey wonders who controls 29 15:37
twitterboycott novell is mostly run by Roy Shestowitz.  See his profile and bio by clicking on his picture on an any Boycott Novell page.Jun 29 15:38
twittertwitter is an engineer and physicist who has nothing to do with M$ or 29 15:40
schestowitzpopey: it's an aggregation for a tool that puts it in IRC (twitfolk). I couldn't use my existing account for it because it's like a metaccount with just relationships..Jun 29 15:40
popeyahhJun 29 15:41
popeyjust thought it was strange that it followed me, and when I went to the page it showed it wasn't following me any moreJun 29 15:41
popeywithin a 1 hour periodJun 29 15:41
popeysomeone decided I'm not worth following after all and changed their mind, or someone followed hoping for an autofollow :)Jun 29 15:42
twittertwitter does not know or use twitter.comJun 29 15:42
MinceRdoes know or use twitter? :>Jun 29 15:43
twitterthere are 28 people in this room, ha ha.Jun 29 15:43
schestowitzpopey: it just means your twits will appear here in IRCJun 29 15:44
schestowitzUser "BNc" is twitfolks getting input from account twitter/boycottnovellJun 29 15:44
popeyoh, my bad, I thouhgt it wasn't following me, but it isJun 29 15:44
popeystrange they don't show yourself when looking at the first page, but if you click "following" you can then see yourselfJun 29 15:45
popeynvmJun 29 15:45
popeyas you wereJun 29 15:45
schestowitzIf you gather all the E-mail notifications from twitter and subtract then you see how many people stopped following youJun 29 15:45
schestowitzIt's mostly people from IRC, so when they twit it appears here too. I got the idea from the Manchester Free software channel (dfey)Jun 29 15:46
popeydidnt know they had a channelJun 29 15:47
schestowitzVery informalJun 29 15:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is so funny. ChannelWeb published the article" Could RIM Benefit From Open Source ChannelWeb?" It meant to day"Open Source BlackBerry"Jun 29 15:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Kubuntu 9.10a2 appears 100% functional on N410c. HUGE SUCCESS! Be sure to install "firefox-3.5", not plain "firefox" #ubuntuJun 29 16:12
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schestowitzACLU Sues DHS Over Unlawful TSA Searches And Detention < >Jun 29 16:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Agora andam a ateimar comigo que nunca existiram um vírus para GNU/Linux, mas eu nao estou fudido?... fdsJun 29 16:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] School Pays Educator Falsely Charged In ‘Sexting’ Probe This hardly makes up for the nuisance.Jun 29 16:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pro-war propaganda is not enough for some folks. 29 16:47
schestowitzGirls Aloud net obscenity case falls at first hurdle < >Jun 29 16:47
schestowitzThe ACLU defends anonymous newspaper commenters 29 16:49
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EruaranBruce Byfield prefers Kontact over Evolution: !kdeJun 29 16:56
MinceRmaybe i will too, after i try the version where the search folder bug has been fixed.Jun 29 16:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is the paper "Copyfraud " 29 16:57
schestowitzWhat is this...? Install Linux with < >Jun 29 16:57
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tacone 29 16:57
schestowitzYes, we talked about it i #boycottnovell-socialJun 29 16:58
taconethat's just stupidJun 29 16:58
taconeit's like mono problem is a tech one.Jun 29 16:59
schestowitzHe misses the pointJun 29 16:59
schestowitztacone: yes, you beat me to itJun 29 17:00
schestowitz 29 17:00
MinceRas if mono was the best thing since sliced bread.Jun 29 17:00
schestowitzGNOME-DoJun 29 17:00
schestowitzI think he works for Canonical nowJun 29 17:00
taconeyes he does.Jun 29 17:01
taconei've got a big question: why canonical doesn't develop on mono ?Jun 29 17:01
MinceRi hope someone ports gnome-do to a non-mono platform.Jun 29 17:01
MinceRand makes it stable in the process.Jun 29 17:02
schestowitzMaybe Hub has a twin sisterJun 29 17:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Free MultiOS project officially declared dead: 29 17:07
taconei'm so eager to know why does those little princesses like monoJun 29 17:08
taconei'll interview 20 of them as soon as possibleJun 29 17:08
taconei'm taking a walk.Jun 29 17:09
taconeoffliningJun 29 17:09
taconei'll pull out a brief reply in some hourJun 29 17:09
nicktasticWell, its a nice platformJun 29 17:10
nicktasticBut unfortunately encumberedJun 29 17:10
_Hicham_Schestowitz-Do is gonna be the replacement of Gnome-DoJun 29 17:11
nicktasticheheJun 29 17:12
nicktasticI don't get the problem with Dave's post. It seems to make perfect sense.Jun 29 17:12
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trmanco 29 17:20
schestowitzWhy is it a Mono gathering?Jun 29 17:21
schestowitzUbuntu tech board plays down Mono IP concerns < >Jun 29 17:21
_Hicham_Ubuntu loves MonoJun 29 17:23
_Hicham_no doubt about thatJun 29 17:23
_Hicham_I don't know why all distros are adopting itJun 29 17:23
schestowitzits manager was developing Visual Studio and stuffJun 29 17:23
schestowitzThe issue is that they carry on hiring more like the same coreJun 29 17:24
schestowitzMS fugitives like Miguel and NatJun 29 17:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDevelop 4 Beta 4 Released < > Great option for Linux developers.Jun 29 17:27
schestowitzThe Coding Studio Screenshots < >Jun 29 17:27
schestowitzThe motherloadJun 29 17:28
cjYou probably already read this, but here is is anyway: 29 17:28
_Hicham_mono nomoJun 29 17:29
cj_Hicham_: yep.  and my mamma don't like obama.Jun 29 17:30
schestowitz< >nitpick: better not to say IP. RMS calls it a propaganda term.Jun 29 17:30
cjnicktastic: yep.  seems sane to me.  but then, it's pretty clear that bn is here for self-promotion and not to solve any problems, so *meh*Jun 29 17:30
_Hicham_mono stands for mononucleosisJun 29 17:32
_Hicham_that means that every distro that adopts it will get sickJun 29 17:32
_Hicham_why distros are looking for a disease?Jun 29 17:33
fewaobamanucleosisJun 29 17:33
schestowitz_Hicham_: it's good for NovellJun 29 17:33
schestowitzNovell has the serumJun 29 17:33
schestowitzIt won't the likes or Red Hat to die around itJun 29 17:33
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_Hicham_why Novell employees don't go to RedHat?Jun 29 17:36
_Hicham_do u think that Miguel can work for RedHat?Jun 29 17:36
schestowitzSUSE or Novell?Jun 29 17:36
_Hicham_for the moment, SUSE = NovellJun 29 17:37
_Hicham_but if(Novell_Went_Bankrupt && Schestowitz_Got_Lot_of_Money) SUSE = Schestowitz;Jun 29 17:38
_Hicham_schestowitz : the only real way for u to make money is to patent ur work on MatlabJun 29 17:40
_Hicham_that way u gonna make a lot of moneyJun 29 17:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5: awesome enough for the president of Brazil :-) 29 17:42
fewatrmanco, and look at the hatJun 29 17:42
trmancoodf :)Jun 29 17:42
trmancoyeahJun 29 17:42
fewaand on the wallJun 29 17:43
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fewa 29 17:43
fewai should start twitteringJun 29 17:43
Omar87Hey there!Jun 29 17:43
Omar87fewa: Although Twitter is an amazing website. I'd advise you to use Why? 'coz is licensed under CC. :)Jun 29 17:44
fewai have a accountJun 29 17:44
fewayeah i would use thatJun 29 17:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] zonked baby is zonked. f has fallen asleep, a and i concur.Jun 29 17:47
fewadoes the irc script work with now?Jun 29 17:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] must buy two more fans for the house.Jun 29 17:52
schestowitzMicrosoft’s ODF support is broken, says alliance 29 17:53
schestowitzThere's new MS vandalism of ODF todayJun 29 17:53
schestowitzNot just in WikipediaJun 29 17:53
schestowitzThey play journos by taking them to dinnersJun 29 17:53
schestowitzDidiot is also entering the pictureJun 29 17:54
schestowitzfewa: I'd need to ask how to do thatJun 29 17:55
fewaI need mroe people fighting the wikipedia vandalismJun 29 17:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ♺@ trmanco ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5: awesome enough for the president of Brazil :-) 29 17:57
schestowitzthe hal shill has been busyJun 29 17:57
schestowitzWasn't he banned yet?Jun 29 17:57
fewathe best thing we can have is a rational popular uprise against the biased edits of HAl and GhettoblasterJun 29 17:57
fewamake alot of noise, trolls cant stand sunlightJun 29 17:58
schestowitzI've been quiet for a long time because other things kept me too occupied. I hope to return to writing, though.Jun 29 18:03
schestowitzMaybe I should write about ODF in some articles..Jun 29 18:03
fewayeah for you writting is probably betterJun 29 18:03
schestowitzMail:Jun 29 18:05
schestowitz"A million hits delayed by 1 second = ~ 277 man-hours of viewing lost:Jun 29 18:05
schestowitz 29 18:05
schestowitzIf that is applied selectively various sites or even individual pages,Jun 29 18:05
schestowitzand thus the views or topics within them, can be emphasised orJun 29 18:05
schestowitzmarginalized.Jun 29 18:05
schestowitzHowever, one has to ask what portion either by number of ad-servers orJun 29 18:05
schestowitzby bandwidth of ad-servers is held back by MS technologies.  IIRC MS hadJun 29 18:05
schestowitzbecome a major problem in the adserver market.  MS would have aJun 29 18:05
schestowitzcompetitor by the economic balls if said competitor were to becomeJun 29 18:05
schestowitzdependent on revenue generated from an MS-based ad server..."Jun 29 18:05
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conleyOmar87: More importantly, it's AGPL'd, and an "open network service" or whatever you call those systems where you can set up your own server and have it interoperateJun 29 18:17
schestowitzconley: I use both, so can Omar87. Omar87, have a look at trmanco showed me how to post conveniently to both services.Jun 29 18:18
conleyYea, I identica has a built in way to forward things to twitterJun 29 18:18
taconei use just identicaJun 29 18:19 is probably nice as wellJun 29 18:19
schestowitzThey use similar APIs. If twitter goes bad, then I still have my data in identicaJun 29 18:19
trmanco 29 18:19
nicktasticBut you can't follow people on twitter, I assumeJun 29 18:20
schestowitzPinging them is the issueJun 29 18:20
schestowitzAs in replying to them without a twittter accountJun 29 18:20
schestowitzSome people come from twitter to identicaJun 29 18:20
schestowitzglynmoody for exampleJun 29 18:20
schestowitzI pushed him to come to identica after he had started in twqitterJun 29 18:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ConnMan Comes to GNU/Linux 29 18:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 is More Expensive Than Entire Computer with GNU/Linux 29 18:27
krensohelloJun 29 18:30
krensodon't you think, we, foss supporters are like guerrillas?Jun 29 18:31
schestowitzguerrillas?Jun 29 18:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why There is No "Best" Filesystem for Linux 29 18:32
schestowitz 29 18:32
schestowitzI've never been to warJun 29 18:32
schestowitzI'm a pacifist. I think most FOSSpeople are.Jun 29 18:33
krensook, maybe partisans is more clear definitionJun 29 18:33
schestowitzThose who wage wars for monopolist in a colonialist fashion are not FOSS peopleJun 29 18:33
schestowitzFOSS people seek control of self, not OTHERSJun 29 18:33
schestowitzFreedom=controlJun 29 18:34
schestowitzNot coercionJun 29 18:34
schestowitzNot control of others, e.g. clientsJun 29 18:34
ThistleWebfree to choose your own path, not be controlled by others intentionsJun 29 18:34
krensothey are focused, we are distracted, they have governments with them, we are only citizens. We don't have so much money and so coordinated strikesJun 29 18:36
ThistleWebFOSS is more grass roots, compared to proprietary is financial-gain corporate agendaJun 29 18:36
schestowitzkrenso: we have the witsJun 29 18:37
schestowitzWe can show what they doJun 29 18:37
schestowitzControl of the media remains a barrier, but we're getting there thanks to the Internet (decentralisation)Jun 29 18:37
ThistleWebwhere people can find their own solutions and be self sufficient, compared to waiting for a company to find a solution and being subservient to their corporate intentionsJun 29 18:37
schestowitzLook what happened to Brown on the Web.Jun 29 18:38
*conley is now known as patrickgartlan2Jun 29 18:38
ThistleWebhence the term "astroturfing" it's about fake grass rootsJun 29 18:38
krensoBrown?Jun 29 18:39
ThistleWebcompanies hire others to pretend to be a large swelling of support, when it's all traced back to one department coordinating all the "independent" campaignsJun 29 18:39
schestowitzGordon Brown's reputation was tarnished on the WebJun 29 18:40
schestowitzLikewise, Microsoft's bad behaviour is more commonly known nowJun 29 18:40
schestowitzThis includes the Rockefeller-type scam called B&M FoundationJun 29 18:40
krensodon't you similarities between us - partisans, them - army?Jun 29 18:40
*patrickgartlan2 is now known as conleyJun 29 18:40
krensoit is known that business is a warJun 29 18:41
ThistleWebthey want you to use their products, we wany you to use ours, that's where the similarites endJun 29 18:41
krensolook at b.gates memos: he uses term jihadJun 29 18:41
fewaThe brazilian president compared them to drug dealersJun 29 18:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] XP Applications Run Better in GNU/Linux Than in Vista/Vista 7? 29 18:42
ThistleWebtheir products are based around proprietary formats, vendor lockin etc. Ours are based around the freedom to modify the code, and standard file formats so you can choose which software suits your needs and move if you feel your current choice dont fit youJun 29 18:42
fewa 29 18:42
schestowitzkrenso: yes, he said Jihad many timesJun 29 18:42
schestowitzI didn't keep countJun 29 18:42
schestowitzHe also says "hardcore" a lotJun 29 18:42
ThistleWebFOSS is about giivng the end user ownership and control back, closed source is about ensuring that you're subservient to their agenda, and have no choice but to fork out cash over and over for new versions of software, because all the data you created with their apps can't be opened by anything elseJun 29 18:43
ThistleWebif you create all your word processing documents in odf using koffice, and koffice moves in a direction you don't like, you can swicth easily yo open office, or abiword and all your data will be fineJun 29 18:45
ThistleWebwhen koffice tell you version X will be discontinued, and please upgrade, it's FOC to do so, not another licencing fee like M$ OfficeJun 29 18:45
schestowitzThis keeps vendors honest tooJun 29 18:46
schestowitzDon't forget about forced upgradesJun 29 18:46
schestowitzMS deliberately designs the office suite not to be cross-compatible or intra-comptaibleJun 29 18:46
schestowitzThis sets loose a wave of mass 'upgrades' where everyone craves to be compatible with peersJun 29 18:46
ThistleWebtheres no reason for FOSS devs to hold back on features either, where closed source vendors can easily use them as carrots to get you to buy the new versionJun 29 18:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Boxee for GNU/Linux Ahead of Windows , Kontact Claimed Ahead of Evolution 29 18:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Tiny Core Linux 2.1 is Released and Mandriva Linux 2010 is Foreseen 29 18:47
schestowitzAnd they throw away perfectly OK softwareJun 29 18:47
schestowitzOK for MS anywayJun 29 18:47
ThistleWeboften you can get a new feature by popping into the devs IRC channel and askingJun 29 18:47
schestowitzThey 'buy' binaries to replace the old onesJun 29 18:47
ThistleWebif it's somethng trivial they never thought of, you may see it as an update within days of you suggesting itJun 29 18:47
ThistleWebeverything in the proprietary model is put through the "can we hold it off as a carrot for peeps to buy the new version" filterJun 29 18:48
ThistleWebwhen your app gets to the state that ot's very stable and has everything peeps want, how do you get them to buy new versions?Jun 29 18:49
ThistleWebfeature bloatJun 29 18:49
ThistleWebadd new stuff just so you have bullet points to put on the advertsJun 29 18:49
ThistleWebNero used to be a great burnerJun 29 18:49
schestowitz"Used to"?Jun 29 18:49
ThistleWebnow it's WAY bigger than it needs to beJun 29 18:49
schestowitzDo people use the Linux version at all?Jun 29 18:49
schestowitzThey rely on old business modelsJun 29 18:49
ThistleWebnow it's a full media suiteJun 29 18:50
ThistleWebbecause of feature bloatJun 29 18:50
ThistleWebI've never tried Nero in Linux, although I'm sure it's available, I dont think it's free thoughJun 29 18:50
ThistleWebwhile brasero exists, I have no reason to try iyJun 29 18:50
ThistleWebit*Jun 29 18:50
ThistleWeblook at Nero now on Windows, it's come a LONG way from a CD / DVD burnerJun 29 18:51
ThistleWebnow it's a full on multimedia suiteJun 29 18:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Does Better Than Anyone Expected 29 18:52
ThistleWebthey got to the point where peeps had what they needed, even more so because of deals they did with burner HW makers to include Nero with the deviceJun 29 18:52
ThistleWebso they had to find ways to get peeps to slpash out on the next versionJun 29 18:53
ThistleWebsplash*Jun 29 18:53
schestowitzIt's not free (Nero)Jun 29 18:53
krensodon't forget that red hat uses other versions of lock-insJun 29 18:53
schestowitzBut it has feature parity wrt WindowsJun 29 18:53
schestowitzkrenso: use centosJun 29 18:54
schestowitzTheir sauce is out thereJun 29 18:54
ThistleWebyep Nero is not free software, although it is included FOC (bundled) with a lot of burners), at least some version isJun 29 18:55
ThistleWebthat's what happens when you saturate the market with a version of your product that's good enough for most peepsJun 29 18:55
ThistleWeband you charge for new versionsJun 29 18:56
ThistleWebwith FOSS you don't get thatJun 29 18:56
ThistleWebsince there's no compunction to monetize every new featureJun 29 18:56
_Hicham_schestowitz : I am having a problem with my website, can u help?Jun 29 18:56
krensonerolinux is sometimes usefull, because it supports more formats than k3bJun 29 18:56
schestowitz_Hicham_: sureJun 29 18:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox May Soon Reach Linux-based Phones 29 18:57
_Hicham_schestowitz : how do I send a file in binary mode to ftp server?Jun 29 18:57
_Hicham_I used Filezilla and gFTPJun 29 18:57
schestowitz 29 18:57
ThistleWeb_Hicham_: there's usually an option in your FTP client to send in binary modeJun 29 18:57
schestowitzI like the two banners. ShinyJun 29 18:58
ThistleWebsorry, schestowitzJun 29 18:58
schestowitzI no longer use gftpJun 29 18:58
_Hicham_I tried it in both of themJun 29 18:58
schestowitzI used Firezilla in like version 1.0Jun 29 18:58
schestowitzGot Konqueror?Jun 29 18:58
schestowitzIt's the best one.Jun 29 18:58
_Hicham_but firefox tries to open up the rpmJun 29 18:58
krensotypes of lock-ins in open source: 29 19:00
_Hicham_can u try to download this file via firefox : ?Jun 29 19:01
_Hicham_firefox reads it directlyJun 29 19:01
krensohave you encounterd problems with cdrkit like these: 29 19:01
krenso?Jun 29 19:01
*ThistleWeb hasn't tried dcrkitJun 29 19:02
ThistleWebcdrkit*Jun 29 19:02
*tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jun 29 19:03
_Hicham_schestowitz : can u try to download this file via firefox : 29 19:03
ThistleWebfirefox treating an rpm as a direct install is to do with the rules for formats in firefox itself, it's set you use yum or whatever instead of giving you the choiceJun 29 19:03
krensoThistleWeb, cdrkit is backend for k3bJun 29 19:03
ThistleWebyeah I use braseroJun 29 19:04
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ThistleWebdunno what backend that usesJun 29 19:04
krensowhy ubuntu includes mono-applications?Jun 29 19:06
ThistleWebwith the rpm thing, you could right click and download, rather than left click and let it do it's default action for rpmJun 29 19:06
krensoare there some ms exworkers inside canonical/ubuntu?Jun 29 19:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Targets Children's Sub-notebooks and Developing Countries 29 19:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Nokia's Linux Emphasis to Further Refine Linux Components 29 19:07
taconekrenso: at least oneJun 29 19:08
ThistleWebwell, ubuntu  / canonical is the Linux poster child, and a MAJOR threat to M$, so you'd be surprised if they didn't try to get agents inside to derail itJun 29 19:09
krensolike agent Smith?Jun 29 19:09
ThistleWebthey dont like competiton except when they can point to them in anti-trust cases and say "hey look, we don't crush everyone, we do have competitors"Jun 29 19:09
taconekrenso: i sent you the link in prvJun 29 19:11
_Hicham_ThistleWeb : I want to fix the behavior of the rpmJun 29 19:11
krensowhat would say that bagle was less expensive than tracker: 29 19:11
_Hicham_it is not normalJun 29 19:11
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taconekrenso: got my prv msg ?Jun 29 19:13
krensoyes, thanksJun 29 19:13
krensoi think it was on boycotnovell websiteJun 29 19:13
taconeyup.Jun 29 19:13
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 29 19:14
taconei don't like to claim people are biased because they worked in ms for some yearsJun 29 19:14
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_Hicham_schestowitz : no one is willing to help in this channelJun 29 19:16
_Hicham_I am really deceivedJun 29 19:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] I hope he was just being sarcastic: "Torvalds proclaims 'new world order' with Linux 2.6.30" 29 19:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: I don't know howJun 29 19:17
_Hicham_it is not about u schestowitz, it is about the othersJun 29 19:18
tacone 29 19:19
schestowitzvenereal berlusconiJun 29 19:20
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] MS-Windows Declared "Outdated 'technology' " RT: @ml2mst: Free MultiOS project officially declared dead: 29 19:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @nickballard: not sure. "My name is Linus, and I am your God,” --Torvalds QuotesJun 29 19:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] "That's not a moon, it's a spaceship..." 29 19:22
krenso_Hicham_, 29 19:23
fewaaww sweet,  new suspend resumeJun 29 19:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Government and Free Software Brought Closer Together Government and Free Software Brought Closer TogetherJun 29 19:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Free Software Mantra Passes to Music 29 19:32
_Hicham_ok, I fixed my problem in fedora channelJun 29 19:33
_Hicham_schestowitz : it was a .htaccess problemJun 29 19:33
schestowitz\Good.Jun 29 19:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Internet Comes Under Cap Attack, Pages Hijacked by ISPs 29 19:37
krensoi didn't know that limux isn't proceeding to good: 29 19:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Scareware Under FTC Probe 29 19:42
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mtcschestowitz, pingJun 29 19:43
schestowitzACKJun 29 19:43
mtcschestowitz, read your nokia linux msg .. you should check out the mer projectJun 29 19:44
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mtcg.l.Jun 29 19:44
*mtc (n=user@fsf/member/mtc) has left #boycottnovell ("Leaving")Jun 29 19:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pirate Bay to Compete with Google , Gets Brazilian President's Sympathy 29 19:47
krensodo you know better sites than 29 19:48
krensoi mean some sites that stories from people i gave digg will have more points in my inboxJun 29 19:49
schestowitzTax Machines is goodJun 29 19:51
schestowitz*TuxJun 29 19:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The Copyright Cartel Focuses on Killing Competition, Not Symbiosis 29 19:52
*Omar87 ( has left #boycottnovellJun 29 19:55
krensoi mostly watch this: 29 19:55
krensobut many good stories are buried if they reach frontpageJun 29 19:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] MAFIAA Broke Wiretap Law , Now Fight to Forbid Personal Backups 29 19:57
fewai dont even look at DunggJun 29 19:57
MinceRfor a moment i thought there was a digg parody site called DunggJun 29 19:58
fewalolJun 29 19:58
fewathat would be awesomeJun 29 19:58
fewai just mad that upJun 29 19:58
fewadamn its parkedJun 29 19:58
krensoi also watch and http://fsdaily.comJun 29 19:59
schestowitzTux Machines is the bestJun 29 19:59
fewaor linux devicesJun 29 20:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "In Europe Windows 7 will cost 41% to 100% more than in the US." 29 20:02
MinceRalso,    what's brown and sounds like a bell?Jun 29 20:02
schestowitzUbuntu?Jun 29 20:05
fewalolJun 29 20:05
MinceRDUNG!Jun 29 20:05
fewa*DunggJun 29 20:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ACT's Anti-FOSS and the Microsoft Connection @glynmoody: It was conceived for Microsoft.Jun 29 20:07
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krensowhat do you think about windows 7 superbar?Jun 29 20:08
amd-linuxnothing as I dont know what it is - and I am not interested in finding outJun 29 20:09
amd-linuxmuch more interesting: will there be a FF 3.5 backport in Ubuntu 9.04Jun 29 20:09
fewaim already using 3.5 in 9.04Jun 29 20:10
fewabut thats coolJun 29 20:10
amd-linuxme too, from PPAJun 29 20:10
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fewai use the mozilla daily buildsJun 29 20:10
amd-linuxbut I mean from UniverseJun 29 20:10
krensoi've tried windows 7 taskbar it and must say it's good. But you can have similar with gnome+maximus+dockarx+namebarJun 29 20:10
amd-linuxtomorrow is FF 3.5 day....Jun 29 20:10
fewakrenso, look at GNOME 3Jun 29 20:10
taconeit's the default that matters.Jun 29 20:11
krensoyou mean this video on you tube from some russian designer?Jun 29 20:11
taconenothing elseJun 29 20:11
fewathere is GNOME 3 alphasJun 29 20:11
krensoi thought gnome 3 will be in 2010-10Jun 29 20:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Known Microsoft Spinners Add Anti-ODF contents (making about 12 more edits) to Wikipedia's article on ODF. 29 20:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] China Bans Gold Farming 29 20:12
fewa 29 20:12
fewa 29 20:12
amd-linuxGold faming banned? Holy schmoly how do I make a living NOW????Jun 29 20:12
amd-linux:-)Jun 29 20:12
fewayou mean legal sanctions?Jun 29 20:13
fewawtfJun 29 20:13
fewathats called coercion and price fixingJun 29 20:13
fewawont stop it from happeningJun 29 20:14
_Hicham_schestowitz : can I put BN logo on my website?Jun 29 20:15
*twitter ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 29 20:15
schestowitzSureJun 29 20:16
_Hicham_schestowitz : ok, I have put itJun 29 20:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Slackware. The anti-Ubuntu. 29 20:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Office Suffocated by FOSS, ODF, and SaaS Competition 29 20:17
krensowhat is the case with odf patents? how has them? sun? oasis?Jun 29 20:17
krensowhat if sun won't be a member of oasis?Jun 29 20:17
tacone 29 20:18
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krensofewa, have you seen this: ?Jun 29 20:19
twitterODF patents?  :)Jun 29 20:19
twitterIsn't that like asking about ogg theora patents?Jun 29 20:20
krenso 29 20:21
fewakrenso, i like practical things, not eye candyJun 29 20:21
krensoi read somewhere that these patents from some are give only if they remain member of oasisJun 29 20:21
krensomaybe it has changedJun 29 20:21
krensofewa, but it may be practical. there is no distraction between windows and their icons on taskbar. more intuitive. look at palm pre videosJun 29 20:23
twitter->" Only one member of the ODF group has issued statements about their patent policies: Sun.  Sun's statements provide for free use of their patents in ODF.  Their patent licenses terminate only for people who threaten others with patents on ODF implementation"Jun 29 20:23
twitterI suppose this means that M$ must avoid ODF patent threats.Jun 29 20:24
MinceRkrenso: i prefer being able to arrange my windows for myself :)Jun 29 20:25
krensoso if microsoft sues someone, because they have patented something in their odf implementation, they can be sued by sun?Jun 29 20:25
krensoi don't even like to arrange windows, that's why i use combo gnome+maximus+dockbar+namebar (i know i'm repeating myself)Jun 29 20:26
fewatry awesome wmJun 29 20:26
fewauses xcb so its faster than any other window managerJun 29 20:27
krensobut sometimes i need to demaximize window, it's rare but usefulJun 29 20:27
twitterIf M$ threatens any ODF implementer with any patent, they lose their right to use ODF.Jun 29 20:27
MinceRthey aren't using it much anywayJun 29 20:27
twitterM$, right now, has no serious interest in implementing ODF.Jun 29 20:27
krensoyou mean use of sun patents?Jun 29 20:28
twitterbut they make false claims.Jun 29 20:28
fewaM$ prefers to shoot themselves in the foot repeatedlyJun 29 20:28
krensotwitter, they have interest: embrace, extend, extinguishJun 29 20:28
fewarather than help their customersJun 29 20:28
twitterWell, yes, krenso, if what the FSF says is accurate, Sun will stop letting people use their ODF patents, which basically keeps people who threaten ODF from using ODF.Jun 29 20:29
twitterSoftware patents are evil and stupid but Sun's patents will do no harm as things stand.Jun 29 20:30
twitterSun is honest enough and has a good enough reputation for people to trust them.Jun 29 20:30
krensook, let's talk about mono a little. can someone tell me why beaggle was so much cheaper to develop than tracker? 29 20:31
krensois it only about number of lines of code?Jun 29 20:31
fewaits similar to the wave patent licence: 29 20:31
twitterMono is a M$ patent trap.Jun 29 20:31
fewaMicrosoft wishes to trap people, that is why they cant speak straightJun 29 20:32
twitterM$ has tried for the last ten years to extinguish free software, they have no interest in contributing to it.Jun 29 20:32
fewaunlike Google which is clear and conciseJun 29 20:32
twitterIf you want to use mono, you might as well use java.Jun 29 20:33
twitterJava is free software and it works as well or better than mono does.Jun 29 20:33
twitterIf Gnome was talking about using java or lisp or other languages instead of mono, the world would be a happier place.Jun 29 20:34
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krensobut one of gnome founders is miguelJun 29 20:35
twittersoJun 29 20:35
krensoand it have some roleJun 29 20:35
krensomaybeJun 29 20:35
krensosome connection or influence, i don't. It's a jihad, man.Jun 29 20:36
twitterFree software belongs to everyone.  "Jihad" is the term M$ would use to describe their war against software freedom and sharing.Jun 29 20:36
twitterThe direction Gnome goes is up to it's owners, that's everyone.Jun 29 20:37
twitterMiguel can make his version of mono compile in VS only if he wants, but I don't think anyone else would use it.Jun 29 20:38
twitterI don't really think Miguel wants to go that way either.Jun 29 20:38
krensomany of us don't like the path which Gnome is following (mono). Gnome is everyone's. But someday it could have MS patents inside, and than you wouldn't say it's everyoneJun 29 20:40
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_Hicham_GNOME is GNUJun 29 20:44
_Hicham_so it can't be contaminatedJun 29 20:44
krenso_Hicham_, it's not on GPL3 so it vunerableJun 29 20:45
twitterAnyone who cares can fork it.  The community wants freedom and will go with the free version.  So will OEMs and everyone else.Jun 29 20:45
_Hicham_they will soonJun 29 20:45
krenso_Hicham_, i hopeJun 29 20:45
_Hicham_Mono will be replaced by vala soonJun 29 20:46
krensobut look what happend with upstart and gpl3Jun 29 20:46
_Hicham_Vala is the future of GNOMEJun 29 20:46
twitter:)  the mono people can have what they want, but they can't make the world use it.Jun 29 20:46
krensoembeded guys didn't wanted gpl3Jun 29 20:46
_Hicham_what happened to upstartJun 29 20:46
_Hicham_?Jun 29 20:46
krenso 29 20:48
krensobut the question is why embeded guys don't want gpl3?Jun 29 20:48
krensotivoization?Jun 29 20:48
krensoso no one can't change firmware and they can sell the milions of apps? 29 20:49
*_Goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 29 20:55
_GoblinGood evening, hello, bonjour....Jun 29 20:56
_GoblinLong day at work... :(Jun 29 20:56
_Hicham_hi Mr _GoblinJun 29 20:57
_Goblin:)Jun 29 20:57
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_Hicham_ 29 21:00
krensodo you know why android don't use gnu coreutils?Jun 29 21:04
krensois it because bsd utils are better/smaller/more efficient?Jun 29 21:04
krensoor is it because of licence which colide whith their app center?Jun 29 21:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] "Jury tells Microsoft to fork over $200M" - Patents not so great eh #Microsoft ? #windows #patent #vista #xpJun 29 21:07
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krensonovell, xandros, linspire, asus, nvidia. ms has many supportersJun 29 21:09
krensoi was hoping for good tegra netbookJun 29 21:10
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schestowitzJohn Cleese... 29 21:13
schestowitzkrenso: why did you come here to troll?Jun 29 21:15
krensoi didn't mean trolling. what was trolling?Jun 29 21:16
krensorather i agree with youJun 29 21:16
schestowitzNo, you bring up poisonous topics systematicallyJun 29 21:17
krensoyou may think about them as poisonous, but i want to ask you about themJun 29 21:18
krensoand up to now you have cleared some my concernsJun 29 21:20
krensothey were just in my mind all the timeJun 29 21:20
krensoschestowitz, i'm foss supporter: 29 21:24
schestowitzMaybe I  misjudged at first.Jun 29 21:26
schestowitzRegarding ODF and patents:Jun 29 21:26
schestowitzLet me get some writings on it.Jun 29 21:26
fewaCleese :PJun 29 21:27
krenso 29 21:27
fewakrenso, you have been trolling all dayJun 29 21:27
krensosorry, just asking. i have so many questions, and you have answers from both sides on googleJun 29 21:28
schestowitz 29 21:28
schestowitz 29 21:28
schestowitz 29 21:28
_GoblinQuote Krenso "Vista came with my laptop but i decided to install Windows 7...."  Yep, he looks like a FOSS user to me....Jun 29 21:28
schestowitz 29 21:28
schestowitzand 29 21:28
krenso_Goblin, Vista crashed and my wife don't like linuxJun 29 21:29
schestowitzBallmer is a FOSS userJun 29 21:29
_GoblinIs there an opensource Windows Vista 7 we are not aware of?Jun 29 21:29
krensoso i decided to try 7.Jun 29 21:29
schestowitzThey use it to run Hotmail and stuffJun 29 21:29
schestowitzWhat distro do you like, krenso?Jun 29 21:30
_GoblinGentoo....Jun 29 21:30
krensoexherboJun 29 21:30
krensoand gentooJun 29 21:30
_Goblinaccording to his blogJun 29 21:30
_Goblinwhat a surprise.Jun 29 21:30
schestowitzGento User...Jun 29 21:30
_GoblinI'm either psychic or I can predict whats coming next....Jun 29 21:30
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krenso 29 21:31
tacone 29 21:31
_GoblinLinux is great but...........(please complete as required)Jun 29 21:31
fewa_Goblin, yarpJun 29 21:31
schestowitzHehe.Jun 29 21:31
_GoblinSometimes Roy I think MS faithful are directly out of a Carry on movie....Jun 29 21:32
_Goblinthey just dont have a clue.....Jun 29 21:32
_GoblinMaybe that should be a new movie "Carry on Proprietary"Jun 29 21:32
_GoblinI'll make it after my "Silence of the Shills" film.Jun 29 21:33
schestowitz"Silence of the Shills"?Jun 29 21:37
krenso_Goblin, you judged me to quickly. Anyone can install windows. Do you use gNewSense?Jun 29 21:37
schestowitzThat's like an oxymoronJun 29 21:37
fewalike "cacophony of the monks"Jun 29 21:38
krenso_Goblin, or maybe you use only hardware on that list ?Jun 29 21:38
krensoso you don't support blobs in kernel?Jun 29 21:38
fewakrenso, have of my hardware of a brand new computer does not work on vistaJun 29 21:38
fewakrenso, most hardware only works with downloading kernel code over httpJun 29 21:39
_GoblinSorry AFK there....Jun 29 21:39
fewakrenso, while linux drivers come with every distrobution, require no installation, and have no crapware that they come withJun 29 21:39
_GoblinCome on know you want to....let me start your sentence for you... "I am a Gentoo user and think Linux is great.  Its not though because......."Jun 29 21:40
krensoi know cons and pros about foss driversJun 29 21:40
_Goblinlovely...Jun 29 21:41
_GoblinMaybe you can tell me then if you can get comp with an AROS/Catweasel combo in respect of UAE?Jun 29 21:41
krensowhat is UAE?Jun 29 21:42
_GoblinIm sure you can with Vista Krenso?Jun 29 21:42
_GoblinI was being flippant...I dont need the answer from you.Jun 29 21:42
krenso_Goblin, you accuse me about something not true, and don't dare to answer on my questionsJun 29 21:43
_GoblinI havent accused you of anything....I'm waiting to hear about the "problems" you have with Linux that I know are coming....Jun 29 21:44
_GoblinWhat Q's?  The one about the hardware?Jun 29 21:44
krenso_Goblin, what is your sin? you don't use gNewSense? you use blobs with kernel? or maybe user of tomboy app?Jun 29 21:45
_GoblinThat was a question?Jun 29 21:45
krensoyapJun 29 21:45
_Goblinlol...Jun 29 21:45
fewakrenso, vista hardware compatibility is crapJun 29 21:45
_GoblinI am a Gentoo user (unlike you)Jun 29 21:45
_Goblinbut...Jun 29 21:45
fewakrenso, and vista 7 will be no betterJun 29 21:45
krensocome on, stop with this vista. i don't careJun 29 21:45
_GoblinI also have Mandriva/Aros/Nimble X rigs running currently too.Jun 29 21:46
schestowitzfewa: it's the same thing underneathJun 29 21:46
schestowitzBut more marketingJun 29 21:46
fewaschestowitz, exactlyJun 29 21:46
fewaVista.1Jun 29 21:46
_GoblinI don't use tomboy....Jun 29 21:46
_GoblinI use gedit.Jun 29 21:46
_Goblinfor mostly everything.Jun 29 21:46
_GoblinWhy would I use a package that facilitates the Mono runtime?Jun 29 21:47
MinceRfor taking notes i use gvim, if it needs structure then with the DotTree plugin.Jun 29 21:47
_Goblinanymore questions Krenso?Jun 29 21:48
fewakrenso, do you put valuable information of windows 7? 29 21:48
_Goblinor is it my go?Jun 29 21:48
krenso_Goblin, why you insinuate than i'm MS fanboy? Because installing 7? That's funny. I gave much more evidences that i'm linux user, and you stick with that one sentece.Jun 29 21:49
_GoblinI didnt...I insinuated you were going to have a problem with Linux....What one sentence have a stuck with?Jun 29 21:50
_Goblin*IJun 29 21:50
fewa_Goblin, hes a trollJun 29 21:51
_GoblinI'm sorry, unless I've slipped into some wierd Ballmeresque alternate reality, after checking my comments I dont believe I've repeated myself at all.Jun 29 21:51
_Goblinfewa: A troll?  He's not very good.... I thought he was just simple.Jun 29 21:52
fewa_Goblin, well hes that tooJun 29 21:52
_Goblin;)Jun 29 21:52
_GoblinI hope that sentence wasn't a repeat...Jun 29 21:54
_GoblinWell thats ended that then...Jun 29 21:55
krensoso what is your definition of troll? A person asking some uncomfortable questions?Jun 29 21:56
_GoblinMoving on...I see MS has had a little issue with a patent ruling......Jun 29 21:56
_Goblin200 mill they have been fined apparently.Jun 29 21:56
krensofoss has some drawbacks but we don't have to hide our head in sandJun 29 21:56
_GoblinKrenso: Nothing you have asked is uncomfortable, infact you havent really asked anything at all...I've answered the "question" that you you are making random comments..Jun 29 21:57
*tacone has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 29 21:57
_GoblinKrenso: I wish you would bury your head in the sand....You might stop with the randomness then.Jun 29 21:58
_Goblinanyway, as I was saying...the patent news on MS is here: 29 22:00
_Goblinmaybe patent's are not so bad after all?Jun 29 22:00
_GoblinCheck out Ballmers yawn....its not his money, he's already made his fortune....why should he care?Jun 29 22:01
_Goblin200 mill will be covered by the revenue made from the miserable Vista customers. (IMO)Jun 29 22:02
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_Goblinbye Krenso...Jun 29 22:08
_Goblinits a shame he left....Jun 29 22:08
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yuhongAfter my recent chat about Apple, this looks very interesting.Jun 29 22:09
yuhong 29 22:09
_Goblinlooking now....Jun 29 22:10
_GoblinAnnoyed immediately..." Open-source projects have tended to be great commoditizers, but not necessarily the best innovators. "....want inovation....UAE/MAME to name but a few...Jun 29 22:11
_GoblinWine...the list goes on.Jun 29 22:11
fewaactual security....Jun 29 22:12
yuhongBy my recent chat about Apple, I am referring to these:Jun 29 22:13
yuhong 29 22:13
_GoblinWhich part of the chat (its quite large)Jun 29 22:17
yuhongThe parts where ThistleWeb, MinceR, and me talk about Apple.Jun 29 22:18
MinceRif he wants free software innovation, he should take a look at compiz and kde4Jun 29 22:19
MinceRand then he should shut up.Jun 29 22:19
fewayuhong, are you going to make a point?Jun 29 22:19
_GoblinYuhonh: Im sorry, Im doing many things at the same time, if you care to ellaborate on the point here great....Jun 29 22:19
yuhongIn fact, that is only part of it.Jun 29 22:20
yuhongI am trying to dig up another part.Jun 29 22:20
_GoblinIm affraid I dont have time to sift through the chat log.Jun 29 22:20
MinceRthen again the tags show what $las$hdot has become.Jun 29 22:20
yuhong 29 22:20
yuhongMinceR is anti-Apple, BTW.Jun 29 22:21
MinceRthat's really hard to tell, you see.Jun 29 22:21
yuhongI disagree with that.Jun 29 22:22
_Goblinah...Jun 29 22:22
_Goblinand?Jun 29 22:23
MinceRyuhong, meet sarcasm. sarcasm, meet yuhong.Jun 29 22:23
yuhongSorry, another IRC log I want to refer seem not have been published yet.Jun 29 22:23
fewayuhong is a nutso apple fan-boiJun 29 22:23
_Goblinyuhong: thats a shame...oh well...we will look forward to it later.Jun 29 22:23
MinceRhe also seem to be pro-m$, if my faint memories are correct.Jun 29 22:23
yuhongI am actually neutral, see that IRC log again.Jun 29 22:24
MinceRyes, you keep saying you're neutral.Jun 29 22:24
fewathat trys to make his points by telling others to read his past words that were poorely wordedJun 29 22:24
_GoblinI am loosing the will to live here.Jun 29 22:24
MinceR<yuhong> i'm neutral, everyone else is biased, so you should just take everything i say at face value and believe it as the word of God.Jun 29 22:24
_GoblinI'm personally acidic....on the PH scaleJun 29 22:24
fewaim basicJun 29 22:25
fewawe could make chlorine gasJun 29 22:25
_GoblinIm Cobol.Jun 29 22:25
yuhongYes, I did regret a few things about that IRC chat.Jun 29 22:25
yuhongBut that will have to wait until the log is published.Jun 29 22:25
_Goblincant wait.Jun 29 22:25
_Goblinmoving on....Jun 29 22:25
fewacause i was so enthused the first timeJun 29 22:25
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_Goblinbye then.Jun 29 22:26
_GoblinI've decided.  I can't be in the correct universe....something must have happened to me on the way home......that just made no sense what so ever.Jun 29 22:26
_GoblinI'm going for a smoke....maybe things will be clearer when I return.Jun 29 22:27
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mrguserIt's me again. Guess waht os i'm using now? ... SymbianJun 29 22:30
schestowitz"Gentoo user"Jun 29 22:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @beltzner: wonders if #firefox can hit trending topic status on Twitter. Keep it going, everyone.Jun 29 22:32
_GoblinNope....its still not clear...Jun 29 22:32
_GoblinHello this a game like animal, vegetable mineral..?Jun 29 22:32
_GoblinWhat distro am I? ;)Jun 29 22:33
_GoblinI use a reptile as a logo...Jun 29 22:33
_GoblinI am in bed with Microsoft and I would love you to use Mono....Jun 29 22:33
_Goblinwhat am I?Jun 29 22:33
mrguserI wish i could have htc hero, i would be too expensive now for meJun 29 22:34
mrgusers/i would be/it would be/Jun 29 22:34
_Goblinsorry, I thought we were playing the "what distro am I?" game.Jun 29 22:34
mrguserBut i suppose you all use openmoko then?Jun 29 22:35
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_GoblinI don't know....I use OpenVISTA.Jun 29 22:35
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yuhongActually that IRC log do have what I want.Jun 29 22:36
_GoblinahhhhhhJun 29 22:36
yuhongI don't think Apple open source is as bad as Microsoft open source.Jun 29 22:37
_Goblinanyone see the old TV show Fraggle Rock?Jun 29 22:37
_Goblinwe are getting a very good emulation of it at the moment.Jun 29 22:38
yuhong 29 22:38
yuhongI just missed it the first time.Jun 29 22:38
mrguserNice game. I'm a smiling cow with stripes like giraffes, sometime i'm pink letter. Who am i?Jun 29 22:38
_GoblinSmiling cow?  Ballmers wife?Jun 29 22:38
_Goblinthats not very nice....Jun 29 22:38
_GoblinIm sure she's lovely.Jun 29 22:39
yuhongI noticed that schestowitz called it rubbish.Jun 29 22:39
_Goblinyep....I'm sure he did.Jun 29 22:39
yuhongI don't agree, would love to hear other's opinions.Jun 29 22:39
_GoblinI do agree...(whatever it was)....Can we end it there?Jun 29 22:40
yuhongIt was about this:Jun 29 22:40
yuhong 29 22:40
yuhongAnd that schestowitz called it rubbish.Jun 29 22:40
yuhongI don't agree, would love to hear other's opinions.Jun 29 22:40
_GoblinIt is rubbish and I said so to you earlier.Jun 29 22:41
_Goblinthe innovation remark?Jun 29 22:41
_GoblinI mentioned some examples....Jun 29 22:41
_Goblinenough said...Jun 29 22:41
yuhongOk, so you agree.Jun 29 22:41
fewayuhong, nobody caresJun 29 22:41
yuhongOk.Jun 29 22:41
MinceRyuhong: i, too will tell you it's rubbish.Jun 29 22:41
fewarubbishJun 29 22:42
_GoblinFewa: If you were not here, I would have an honest held belief that I'd lost my mind....nothing is making any sense.Jun 29 22:42
fewa_Goblin, they are trollsJun 29 22:42
fewatrolls dont make senseJun 29 22:42
fewathey appeal to fearJun 29 22:43
fewamisconstrued fearJun 29 22:43
yuhongYep, FUD.Jun 29 22:43
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yuhong 29 22:43
yuhongI don't think Apple open source is as bad as Microsoft open source.Jun 29 22:43
_Goblinthats nice.Jun 29 22:43
fewayuhong, and you spread alot of itJun 29 22:43
_Goblinhe's spreading alot of something.....Jun 29 22:43
yuhongWhat do you think is FUD? Because FUD is bad and spreading it is not good.Jun 29 22:44
_GoblinlolJun 29 22:44
schestowitzfewa: some people still feed them, so they carry on.Jun 29 22:44
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:44
schestowitzBut it tells you what subjects matterJun 29 22:45
schestowitzLike in SlashdotJun 29 22:45
schestowitzThey always hammer on the same subjects (the AstroTurfers that it)Jun 29 22:45
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:45
schestowitzODF, Munich's migration, etc.Jun 29 22:45
fewathose point which they are most wrongJun 29 22:45
yuhongRight.Jun 29 22:45
schestowitzYou can tell what scares MS based on where the PR agents goJun 29 22:45
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:45
schestowitzMono is a hot one for MSJun 29 22:45
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:45
schestowitzThey want to make .NET industry stdJun 29 22:46
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:46
schestowitzAnd Novell helps themJun 29 22:46
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:46
mrguserYepJun 29 22:46
schestowitzNow RMS stands in the wayJun 29 22:46
yuhongGood.Jun 29 22:46
schestowitzSo the MS intern says "f*ck you , Stallman"Jun 29 22:46
schestowitzI.e. RMS is rightJun 29 22:46
schestowitzMS is angry = good for FOSSJun 29 22:46
yuhongMono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal, but still...Jun 29 22:46
yuhongYep.Jun 29 22:46
fewaMS credibility < *Jun 29 22:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s ODF Lunch Paid Off < >Jun 29 22:47
schestowitzI'll do a mono postJun 29 22:47
schestowitzIt gives the trolls a hardon: 29 22:47 ? :)Jun 29 22:47
schestowitzMust mean that it's the right thing to bang onJun 29 22:47
yuhongI mean, what do you think is FUD *I am spreading*? Because FUD is bad and spreading it is not good.Jun 29 22:47
schestowitztabletop: lunchpaidJun 29 22:48
yuhongWhy?Jun 29 22:48
yuhongMono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal.Jun 29 22:48
_Goblinyuhong: Its not working.  Give it are merely highlighting what Roy is saying...tell your employer you need a new tactic...Jun 29 22:48
yuhongI did not intend to talk about mono.Jun 29 22:49
mrguserStallman said that mono isn't bad, but we shouldn't relay on such technologiesJun 29 22:50
yuhongExcept that it was not my intent.Jun 29 22:50
yuhongNot working, maybe, but it is not my intent.Jun 29 22:50
_Goblinlovely.Jun 29 22:50
tacone1mrguser: stallman said mono is probably dangerousJun 29 22:50
yuhongNot as dangerous as MS-Novell deal, but still not good.Jun 29 22:51
mrguserYes, if you base whole gnome on itJun 29 22:51
tacone1he said that free implementations are good but mono seems dangerous and advises to try diminuish risksJun 29 22:51
mrguserYes, it's dangerous, but because of novellJun 29 22:52
_GoblinMono is only an issue if devs adopt....Tomboy for example? its hardly an essential app...theres plenty of alternatives..Jun 29 22:52
yuhongNot as dangerous as MS tax, but still not good.Jun 29 22:52
yuhongSuch as GnoteJun 29 22:52
mrguserbecause some day Novell will try to put in some patented technologies.Jun 29 22:53
mrgusergnote, keepnote etc. Many of themJun 29 22:53
mrguserbut thanks to ms cach, mono apps will be more polished. They are standing on giant's shoulders, so they can see farerJun 29 22:54
yuhongI also enjoy reading the discussions.Jun 29 22:55
mrgusers/cach/cashJun 29 22:55
yuhongOn slashdot.Jun 29 22:55
mrguserbtw. I really advise to try exherbo, i'm putting big hopes on it.Jun 29 22:56
yuhongYep, trolls often try new tactics.Jun 29 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #kubuntu 9.10 sound was fine in 2.6.30-8, broken in 2.6.30-10. argh. #ubuntu #karmicJun 29 22:57
yuhongAnyway, all the Apple chat was fun.Jun 29 22:58
mrguserYep, sound in linux is a little fu**dJun 29 22:58
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MinceR...until you kill pulseaudio with fire.Jun 29 23:00
mrguserYes, alsa works for me, but when i read about those problems with paJun 29 23:03
mrguserI'm waiting for some good linux arm notebooks. They should appear in q3.Jun 29 23:04
mrguserAnd when i read about nvidia and their anti-linux behaviour i wonder why?Jun 29 23:05
mrguserbecause ms offered them good contract in zune?Jun 29 23:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Are you getting excited for #Firefox 3.5? So are we!!!!!!! 29 23:07
fewatrmanco, they used the video for everybody template :PJun 29 23:12
trmancoyeahJun 29 23:12
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mrguserYepJun 29 23:15
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yuhongOn the matter of Apple's open source, it is not as bad as Microsoft's open source.Jun 29 23:17
yuhongIMO.Jun 29 23:17
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ugufjhfjschestowitzJun 29 23:19
schestowitzACKJun 29 23:20
ugufjhfjI don't understand why some people try to push mono on linux, while microsoft seem not using .NET in their OS...Jun 29 23:20
schestowitzVista does not use .NETJun 29 23:20
schestowitzMaybe cause it's slow, maybe cause it's code monkeys can't get past VBJun 29 23:20
schestowitzMaybe they need a major rewriteJun 29 23:21
ugufjhfjit's a optional componentJun 29 23:21
schestowitzBut that would be suicidal as they are already lagging behind the competitionJun 29 23:21
ugufjhfjwhy in linux then...Jun 29 23:21
ugufjhfjits cool ?Jun 29 23:22
schestowitzNovell is part of the problemJun 29 23:22
oiaohmugufjhfj: cause is one of Gnome old project leads is the lead developer of Mono.Jun 29 23:22
schestowitzXimian and the genesis of it..Jun 29 23:22
schestowitzNat Friedman is from MicrosoftJun 29 23:22
schestowitzUbuntu also took a manager from MicrosoftJun 29 23:22
mrguserI was wondering why ms is promoting .net so much. Because apps will work on every future relase of windows? Even no matter pc or embeded (with some minor rewrites)?Jun 29 23:23
schestowitzSo they push what they learned at MS into LinuxJun 29 23:23
oiaohmSo person had a high ammount of respect so people followed the Mono lead developer without questioning.Jun 29 23:23
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ugufjhfja have never seen great .NET apps in windows...Jun 29 23:24
oiaohm.Net basically picks up were VB left off.Jun 29 23:24
oiaohmMS kinda needs .net mrguserJun 29 23:25
oiaohmFor years computer world has been one CPU type.   That is starting to break up.Jun 29 23:25
oiaohmkey idea of .net is a processor netural bytecode.Jun 29 23:25
mrguserSo they can jumpJun 29 23:26
mrguserto other cpus, and users can have their apps?Jun 29 23:26
oiaohmYep.Jun 29 23:26
oiaohmI personally think .net is designed wrong.Jun 29 23:26
_GoblinPutting the possible patent trap issue aside, the reason why I have issue with Mono is that because regardless of what it is, it is an implimentation of MS standards (of sorts) weve seen the MONO runtime, weve seen Microsoft "standards" and anything that seeks to lead Linux down a bloated Microsoft path is wrong (IMO)...Linux was built on the hardwork and innovation of thousands of people WITHOUT MS "standards"...we do not need Jun 29 23:26
fewabut we have that with ruby, and python, and perl/parrot (both source and bytecode)Jun 29 23:26
oiaohmBut the idea of a processor netural bytecode has its places.Jun 29 23:26
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fewaand java has been around for ages with bytecode,Jun 29 23:27
fewaits just NIH syndromeJun 29 23:27
oiaohmJava bytecode design and .net are different.Jun 29 23:27 bytecode design moves closer to native code than what java is.Jun 29 23:27
fewabut what about parrot, or llvm?Jun 29 23:28
oiaohmllvm does not have a standard exportable bytecode.  If it did it could beat the living crap out of .netJun 29 23:28
oiaohmparrot is not targeted at building native executables.Jun 29 23:29
oiaohmYou have to remember MS .Net is using AOT not JIT most of the time.Jun 29 23:29
mrguserSomeone said that web is biggest human application platform. Look how easy palm pre made writing applications: html+jsJun 29 23:29
fewawhat is AOT?Jun 29 23:29
oiaohmAhead of time.Jun 29 23:29
oiaohmBasically turn the bytecode into native code once.Jun 29 23:29
fewaahh, meaning endless turn around test cycleJun 29 23:30
oiaohmThere is a cache in the .net PE executable particulically to store the AOT for windows.Jun 29 23:30
yuhongYep, ngen.Jun 29 23:31
yuhongNow, tell me which FUD I am spreading.Jun 29 23:31
mrguserAbout mono. What was the issue that it's hard to obtain royalty free licence for c# implementation?Jun 29 23:31
oiaohmMono is a mixture of things.Jun 29 23:31
oiaohmNumber one no one including the project lead of mono has a clear patent status on it.Jun 29 23:32
yuhongYep.Jun 29 23:32
oiaohmNumber two mono is techincally incompadible with most of the opensource world desktops by design.Jun 29 23:33
mrguserBut what is the case? Do i have to obtain licence to make my implemetation of java?Jun 29 23:33
oiaohmThe incompadiblity leads to mono needing heavy wrappers.Jun 29 23:33
yuhongMono is not as bad as MS-Novell deal, but yes mono has problems.Jun 29 23:33
ugufjhfjthere is some mono app for KDE?Jun 29 23:33
oiaohmBasically not one mono application for kde ugufjhfjJun 29 23:34
oiaohmMono developers complain about KDE developers pushing them to edge all the time.Jun 29 23:34
oiaohmmrguser: sun licenced java in such as way that if you follow java standard you can use the patents at no charge.Jun 29 23:35
oiaohmmrguser: if you get the idea of extending java in a non cross platform way the patents on java will eat you for lunch.Jun 29 23:36
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yuhongYep, MS tried to embarse and extend java.Jun 29 23:36
oiaohmAnd sun got savage.Jun 29 23:36
mrguserOkJun 29 23:37
oiaohmOpen source implenetaton in gcc is done with suns blessing same with many other closed source java engines.Jun 29 23:37
oiaohmNow use of the java brand that is a another matter.Jun 29 23:37
mrguseris ooo still behind sofmaker when it comes to ms office compatiblity? 29 23:37
oiaohmIf you want to brand your device as java using you have to pay so much for the means to brand that.Jun 29 23:38
cj 29 23:38
mrguseri read somewhere that apache guys are pissed off, because sun is making some barriers to have harmony certificationJun 29 23:39
mrguserand that javafx isn't on jcp path because sun want to control it to much?Jun 29 23:40
oiaohmSun is a business.Jun 29 23:42
oiaohmOk was a business.Jun 29 23:42
yuhongYepJun 29 23:42
oiaohmOnce a jvm was certified it could have the java logo used on the device containing.Jun 29 23:42
oiaohmSo making it simple was not in sun best interest.Jun 29 23:43
oiaohmStill apache guys always knew were they legally stood.Jun 29 23:44
mrguserOh, i seeJun 29 23:44
mrguserapache is a big contributor to java familyJun 29 23:44
oiaohmThere will always be pressure between the standard maker and the implementors.Jun 29 23:44
mrguserand it all started with http serverJun 29 23:45
oiaohmThe apache sun issue lot of mono guys try to use as a smoke screen.  Issues are no where near the same.Jun 29 23:45
mrguserOkJun 29 23:46
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oiaohmWithout doing a bug to bug compare with softmaker I could not tell you want the engine is.Jun 29 23:47
oiaohmThere are a few different MS Office processing engines out there.Jun 29 23:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mono Proponents Do Not Address the Real Questions < >Jun 29 23:57

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