IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 30th, 2009

oiaohm  Nice report on Oracle the invisable power house.Jun 30 00:03
oiaohm  Nice question how long will encryption last now.Jun 30 00:08
cjschestowitz: aw, a tribute to me!Jun 30 00:19
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oiaohm  This is good Linux Kernel Developers point of view of real time scanning.Jun 30 00:21
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oiaohmRead the comments.Jun 30 00:51
oiaohmAll the ones pro boycott novell back themselves up with facts ugufjhfjJun 30 00:51
oiaohmAll the ones anti boycott novell are just insulting.Jun 30 00:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Examples of Questionable Press Coverage 30 00:57
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schestowitzgnJun 30 01:11
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oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jun 30 01:20
_Hicham_hi oiaohmJun 30 01:20
_Hicham_howdy?Jun 30 01:20
oiaohm  The real-time scanning support is still progressing for Linux.Jun 30 01:21
_Goblingn all, thats me done too....Jun 30 01:21
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oiaohm kde 4.3 is looking nice.Jun 30 01:24
_Hicham_oiaohm : I don't know why, but I never liked KDEJun 30 01:26
_Hicham_I am always in love with the polished look of GNOME and its APIJun 30 01:27
oiaohmI started off with Gnome and ended up on KDE.Jun 30 01:28
tabletopdoes gnome have C# code in it ?Jun 30 01:29
_Hicham_oiaohm : did u code for both GNOME and KDE?Jun 30 01:30
oiaohmMore often than not I don't code for either.Jun 30 01:31
oiaohmQT has always been nice cross platform.Jun 30 01:31
oiaohmGnome core is not .net compadible tabletop.  C# applications are just surface bits.Jun 30 01:32
_Hicham_GTK model is stronger than QTJun 30 01:33
_Hicham_GTK is CJun 30 01:33
_Hicham_QT is C++Jun 30 01:33
oiaohmQT looks decent on Windows and Mac.Jun 30 01:34
oiaohmC++ does not worry me.Jun 30 01:35
oiaohmGTK is gobject so can be just as much fun as C++ at times.Jun 30 01:35
oiaohmGTK was never designed with the idea of using platform native dialogs.Jun 30 01:36
tabletopnon fully OOP and lack of TYPE-Safe is an issue, plus buffer overflows and globals.Jun 30 01:37
oiaohmType safe with GTK can be dealt with by using the preprocessor for gcc Linux kernel developers use.Jun 30 01:39
oiaohmType safe issues are just a complier issue.Jun 30 01:40
tabletopgood, because the lack of it, if not applied is a significant security issue.Jun 30 01:40
tabletopits actually a language issue,Jun 30 01:40
oiaohmNo its a complier issue.Jun 30 01:40
tabletopjava is type-safeJun 30 01:40
tabletopok, whateverJun 30 01:41
oiaohmC complier can choose if it does type checks or not.Jun 30 01:41
oiaohmGcc choose by default not.Jun 30 01:41
oiaohmRebuild the same C code with a C++ complier it gets typechecked.Jun 30 01:41
oiaohmBuffer overflow detection is also complier.Jun 30 01:42
tabletoptype checking and type-safe are not the same thingJun 30 01:42
tabletopbut y ou know that rightJun 30 01:42
oiaohmType-safe and buffer protection are both complier options.   C does not demard in Language define that they be provide.  But does not block them from being applied either.Jun 30 01:43
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_Hicham_there is GTKmmJun 30 01:44
_Hicham_which is type-safeJun 30 01:44
tabletopif they are compiler options, then they are not safe as you are able to turn them off, and most toJun 30 01:45
_Hicham_if u want type safetyJun 30 01:45
_Hicham_the main reason why we wrote GTK in C is performanceJun 30 01:45
_Hicham_and it is provenJun 30 01:45
_Hicham_GNOME performs better than KDEJun 30 01:45
oiaohmGcc is a sucky C++ complier.Jun 30 01:46
tabletop"Programming languages that are type-safe are more secure from certain exploits, such as buffer overflows."Jun 30 01:46
tabletop"Without type safety, program data is just a big ocean of bits. The program can grab any arbitrary handful of bits and interpret it in limitless ways—regardless of the original purpose of the data. For example, if the string "GARY" were placed into memory, it could later be used not as text, but as a 32-bit integer, 0x47415259 (or, in decimal, 1,195,463,257—a rather large number indeed!). When data supplied by an extJun 30 01:46
oiaohmType-safe only blocks some flaws.Jun 30 01:46
tabletopyes, ofcourse it only stops some flaws.Jun 30 01:47
oiaohm  sparse used by Linux kernel can hunt down in C code lot more differnet classes of flaws.Jun 30 01:47
oiaohmLike the nasty dead lock.Jun 30 01:47
oiaohmIdea that using a type-safe language makes much difference is one of the biggest jokes going.Jun 30 01:48
oiaohmUsing good tools with C equal results are produced.Jun 30 01:48
_Hicham_and C programs perform better than C++ onesJun 30 01:49
oiaohmWrong _Hicham_Jun 30 01:49
_Hicham_oiaohm : why?Jun 30 01:50
tabletopyes, you can write both very good and very bad code in C or any language for that matter, just some languages are more inherently safer by design, they dont use pointers, globals and have safe type casting and buffer managementJun 30 01:50
_Hicham_C++ adds more overheadJun 30 01:50
oiaohmPure performance difference between C++ and C with gcc is based on how well gcc processes each language.Jun 30 01:50
_Hicham_C lets you do all of ur checksJun 30 01:50
oiaohmLot of things like cout should be solved out.Jun 30 01:50
_Hicham_the compiler doesn't do much for uJun 30 01:50
_Hicham_cout is a great utilityJun 30 01:50
oiaohmYou can write bad code using safetype as well.Jun 30 01:51
_Hicham_agreeJun 30 01:51
tabletopofcourse you can, as i said, any language, its just harder on some and easier on other to create bad code.Jun 30 01:51
oiaohmIts not harder its simpler in fact.Jun 30 01:51
oiaohmOne of the most common problems you find in .net and java is allocation bleed.Jun 30 01:52
oiaohmWhy objects remain linked to something still in use when they are no longer required.Jun 30 01:52
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_Hicham_Garbage collection just fails sometimesJun 30 01:53
oiaohmThen developers using type safe language believes the story that is safer and does not do as much checking.Jun 30 01:53
_Hicham_reference counting doesn't always workJun 30 01:53
oiaohmLike using items like sparse.Jun 30 01:53
amarsh04_hmm... dsl dropped (power glitch)Jun 30 01:54
oiaohmSimply skipping over correctly validating a user can create a security whole.Jun 30 01:54
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oiaohmOr skipping over protecting sql code.Jun 30 01:54
oiaohmThere are a mountain of holes over than just buffer overflows.Jun 30 01:55
oiaohmAnd items corrected by type safety.Jun 30 01:55
oiaohmBig difference C and C++ programmers know straight up theres can leak.Jun 30 01:56
tabletopyes, there are globals, pointers, poor code, exploits, bugs and exploitsJun 30 01:56
oiaohmpointers with protections provided by compliers are not much of a risk.Jun 30 01:56
tabletopno language is perfect, but some are better than others.Jun 30 01:56
oiaohmglobals can be done in any language just different ways.Jun 30 01:56
oiaohmCorrect no language is perfect.Jun 30 01:57
oiaohmEvery one has its unique defects.Jun 30 01:57
oiaohmWhen using it you should be using tools that counter it.Jun 30 01:57
oiaohmSo there should really not been any difference in quality of code produced from a good developer no matter the language used.Jun 30 01:58
tabletopbefore you rely on tools, you start by doing it right yourself in the first place, good coders dont rely on their tools to correct bad programming practicesJun 30 01:58
oiaohmGood coders know they are human.Jun 30 01:59
oiaohmNo matter how good you are human error will creep in.Jun 30 01:59
tabletopyes, so they know that they cannot just rely on tools to correct their errors, good programmers know that all too wellJun 30 01:59
oiaohmBut will rely on tools that block known defects in the language.Jun 30 02:00
oiaohmSo reducing there risk of errors.Jun 30 02:00
tabletopyes, good coders rely on both, their own skills and the tools, and peer reviewJun 30 02:00
oiaohmThe type safe bit and buffer overflows with C purefully falls under not using right tools to prevent it.Jun 30 02:01
oiaohmSo coders having those faults really should be kicked.  The tools to deal with both have existed for over 20 years.Jun 30 02:02
tabletop"Although buffer-overflow bugs are not confined to C and C++ code, the C and C++ programming languages make it difficult to ensure safe coding practices. The languages are not type-safe (discussed later in this chapter), use built-in functions that can overflow buffers, and are difficult to debug."Jun 30 02:02
oiaohmWhat book did you pull that from.Jun 30 02:03
tabletop"rootkits" subverting the windows kernelJun 30 02:04
oiaohmpgroup complier removed those problems back in the 1980~.   Lot of other tools have appeared since.Jun 30 02:04
oiaohmMSVC has not been what you call the best quality complier.Jun 30 02:04
oiaohmIts not the language alone.  It also the quality of tools used with it.Jun 30 02:05
tabletopwe still have all these problems today, so what happend in the 1980's did not work !Jun 30 02:05
oiaohmNoJun 30 02:06
oiaohmSimple people have been not using good quality tools.Jun 30 02:06
oiaohmSo it keep on happening.Jun 30 02:06
oiaohmStuff developed in the 1980~ does detect those flaws.Jun 30 02:06
tabletopbuts its 2009 and we still have them !!Jun 30 02:07
tabletop"The adoption of type-safe languages (such as Java and C#) would nearly eliminate the risk of buffer overflows. Although a type-safe language is not guaranteed to be secure, it significantly reduces the risks of buffer overflows, sign-conversion bugs, and integer overflowsJun 30 02:07
oiaohmChanging to java and C# does not prevent them.Jun 30 02:07
oiaohmto be correct C# in unsafe mode can cause a buffer overflow.Jun 30 02:08
oiaohmC# is not 100 percent protected from being a buffer overflow source.Jun 30 02:08
oiaohmIts 2009 we still have them because compliers we use sux.Jun 30 02:09
tabletopthats why it says "nearly" eliminate.Jun 30 02:09
oiaohmOne of the biggest cause with gcc is lack of whole program optimisation.Jun 30 02:09
oiaohmIf your program is just a single source file gcc does a really good job at hunting down buffer overflow events when building.Jun 30 02:10
oiaohmGcc also supports the tech based off ibm propolice to detect and stop the program having a bufferoverflow at runtime.Jun 30 02:10
oiaohmSo bufferover flow being a exploit should not be happining.Jun 30 02:11
tabletopand there is lint too, but no tools are perfect,  but code can be.Jun 30 02:11
oiaohmlint also is lacking in whole program scanning at depth.Jun 30 02:12
tabletopexactly, no tools are perfect, they just help.Jun 30 02:12
oiaohmTools can move C and C++ to the same level of safe as C#Jun 30 02:13
oiaohmTo be correct past what .net offers.Jun 30 02:13
tabletopI dont believe they can, C is a very low level language, it allowes you to do many t hings, that flexibility also allowes you room to write bad or insecure code and the compiler and lint wont say a word about it, thats the power and disadvantage of C.Jun 30 02:15
oiaohmMajor difference in buffer overflow event detection between pgroup complier and gcc is that pgroup does whole program searches for defects.Jun 30 02:15
tabletopyou can have high level and low level control flexibility and have an inherently safe development platform at the same time.Jun 30 02:15
oiaohmFlexablity of C# also allow many bad things.Jun 30 02:16
oiaohmJust by enabling unsafe mode.Jun 30 02:16
tabletopso why does everyone use GCC and not pgroup ?Jun 30 02:16
oiaohmSo enabling pointers so enabling every defect C has without the pointer auditing.Jun 30 02:16
oiaohmpgroup is commerical tabletopJun 30 02:16
tabletopC# and java force OOP that eliminates many holes right there.Jun 30 02:17
oiaohmC# can have that disabled.Jun 30 02:17
oiaohmC# is not magical.Jun 30 02:17
oiaohmShould never be used as an example of a pure safe language.Jun 30 02:17
oiaohmIts not.Jun 30 02:17
tabletopc# with OOP disabled would be C++ or C right !! :)Jun 30 02:17
oiaohmunsafe mode.Jun 30 02:18
tabletopand sure its not magical, but like java its a part of comp sci evolution.Jun 30 02:18
oiaohmOf C# turns most of its safeties off.Jun 30 02:18
oiaohmIt no longer even warns when building.Jun 30 02:18
oiaohmSo putting it way behind gcc in application building.Jun 30 02:19
tabletopit still forces OOP and type-safe programming, which is by itself very safe method of development.Jun 30 02:19
oiaohmIf you don't enable unsafe mode.Jun 30 02:19
tabletopI acutally rather use C myselfJun 30 02:19
oiaohmJava you could use of an agurment about a safe language.Jun 30 02:19
oiaohmIt don't have a unsafemode.Jun 30 02:20
tabletopI dont have any unsafe modes on any of my development platforms or compilersJun 30 02:20
oiaohmC# has a unsafe mode.Jun 30 02:21
tabletopnever seen it, and would never use it if I did. sounds kinda stupidJun 30 02:21
oiaohmThat enabled pointers.Jun 30 02:21
oiaohmUsed in mono interface libraries.Jun 30 02:21
tabletop"I think ill write this program in 'unsafe' mode for some excitment" who would do that ?Jun 30 02:21
oiaohmYou are using it.Jun 30 02:21
oiaohmIts how C# interfaces back to native OS.Jun 30 02:21
tabletopc# and java use an intermediate interpreter to form a layer between the bytecode and the cpu/osJun 30 02:23
oiaohmThe wrappers of C# are written in C#Jun 30 02:23
oiaohmJava you are right with not C#Jun 30 02:23
tabletopC# uses one too the JITJun 30 02:24
oiaohmJIT can still use pointers directed by bytecode.Jun 30 02:24
oiaohmThat can be exploited.Jun 30 02:24
oiaohmJIT is not magical tabletopJun 30 02:24
_Hicham_C# introduced confusion with its pointersJun 30 02:24
tabletopI know its not, but it is what it is, its a layer beteen the bytecode and teh OS, just like the one in java.Jun 30 02:25
tabletopthere is not much in computers that are magical IMHOJun 30 02:25
oiaohmJava bytecode has no means to use pointers.Jun 30 02:25
tabletopthats right, its an OOP langageJun 30 02:26
oiaohmIt was designed that way.Jun 30 02:26
tabletopthats rightJun 30 02:26
oiaohmC# was designed with means to use pointers.Jun 30 02:26
oiaohmSo its no better really than CJun 30 02:26
oiaohmonly difference is having to use a special mode to use pointers.Jun 30 02:26
tabletopyou dont use pointers in C#Jun 30 02:26
oiaohmYou can tabletopJun 30 02:26
oiaohmit is in the language.Jun 30 02:26
tabletopmabey you can, but you dont.Jun 30 02:27
oiaohmThe interface libs that you programs depend on use it.Jun 30 02:27
oiaohmYou can code with C++ and not use raw pointers either.Jun 30 02:27
oiaohmBefore calling a language safe you should check exactly what it can and cannot do.Jun 30 02:28
oiaohmC# can do a lot more than most people think.Jun 30 02:28
oiaohmSo its no where near as safe as most people think.Jun 30 02:28
_Hicham_Pointers are a great way to improve speedJun 30 02:29
tabletopI know you can use pointers in C++ or C you can even use Assembly in C so you can do anything you damn well please, I agree with you entirely.Jun 30 02:29
oiaohmAdd #Jun 30 02:29
oiaohmas well.Jun 30 02:29
_Hicham_oiaohm : what about auto pointers?Jun 30 02:29
oiaohmC# comparing to java for safety is one of the biggest .net lies.Jun 30 02:30
tabletopIts just some programming methods are more secure by their design and by not employing methods and techniques known to be problematic such as buffer overflows and globals, its what computer science does, its what all science does, it advances its art.Jun 30 02:30
tabletopHickman, yes, pointers are very powerfull, and C is perfect for fast and efficient code, it cant be beat.Jun 30 02:31
_Hicham_no programming language is secure by designJun 30 02:32
tabletopthere is nothing you can do in C# or java that you cannot do in CJun 30 02:32
_Hicham_there is no secure designJun 30 02:32
_Hicham_till nowJun 30 02:32
oiaohmC# can do everything C can.Jun 30 02:32
oiaohmBy its design.Jun 30 02:32
oiaohmBar speed.Jun 30 02:32
tabletopTHats true, none are secure by design,Jun 30 02:33
_Hicham_oiaohm : maybe on WindowsJun 30 02:33
_Hicham_the Mono libs are not perfect yetJun 30 02:33
_Hicham_all they do is wrap GNOME and KDE libsJun 30 02:33
oiaohmC# was designed to allow drivers to be coded in it.Jun 30 02:33
oiaohmWhen interfacing with hardware you have to handle raw pointers from time to time.Jun 30 02:34
_Hicham_u can't do a driver without raw pointersJun 30 02:34
oiaohmDue to hardware designs some of them you have to leap of faith with raw pointers.Jun 30 02:35
oiaohmProblem here tools for tracking down pointer issues don't exist in .net langauge development tools.Jun 30 02:36
oiaohmtabletop: I know what C# can and cannot do.  Too well.Jun 30 02:37
tabletopit sounds like it, its interesting to read that you can do all the low level stuff with it, ive not tried that yet.Jun 30 02:38
_Hicham_oiaohm : I don't think that it is a good idea to write a driver in C#Jun 30 02:38
tabletopIm trying to remember back to some ISA bus drivers I wrote and how I did it,Jun 30 02:38
_Hicham_tabletop : using C ?Jun 30 02:39
oiaohmThat it can do that low level stuff in its byte code if its bytecode is ever damaged it could still do it.Jun 30 02:39
tabletopno, using "LabVIEW" actually.Jun 30 02:39
tabletopI think it was a seriies of registers at a starting addres,Jun 30 02:39
tabletoplabVIEW is the coolest language, and its available on Linux tooJun 30 02:40
_Hicham_is it free?Jun 30 02:40
tabletopive seen it on TPB but the company sort of has an unoffical non-commercial use is OK thing,Jun 30 02:41
_Hicham_oiaohm : there is already some drivers written in C#Jun 30 02:41
tabletopits a graphical programming language, very powerfull, you can include C code sections, and its very fast and inherently parallel.Jun 30 02:42
oiaohmItems like LabVIEW are a true improvement in coding.Jun 30 02:43
oiaohmMaking it simpler to see stuffups.Jun 30 02:43
oiaohmC# and Java really don't help with that.Jun 30 02:43
tabletopsure is, its amazing, ive been able to do increadable things in really short time frames with it.Jun 30 02:44
oiaohmSo far there is not a good open source form of it.Jun 30 02:45
oiaohmReally all the time wasted developing mono would have been better spent building something to compete with LabView.Jun 30 02:45
tabletopthat would be great, I would be right behind that effort.Jun 30 02:46
tabletopmaking it more general purpose but its very functional.Jun 30 02:46
oiaohmSimple tech point of view .net is not really offering that much.Jun 30 02:46
oiaohmPeople forget the old language by MS marketed as safe.  Remember VB.Jun 30 02:47
tabletopIve seen a guy drag an internet browser into a labVIEW windows, go to the code page and "wire up" the links and turning the web page into an application in like 5 minutes.Jun 30 02:47
oiaohmThat is exactly what we should be aiming for.Jun 30 02:48
oiaohmHighly flexable highly simple to see defects.Jun 30 02:48
tabletopyepJun 30 02:49
oiaohmLabview create C and stack of different langauges.Jun 30 02:49
oiaohmDue to a great tool front end what is produced is safe.Jun 30 02:49
tabletopand dataflow programming is great for mulit-processor or cluster platforms, it scales really wellJun 30 02:49
oiaohmNotice that labview is a tool.Jun 30 02:50
oiaohmDevelopers with great tools would basically be unbeatable.Jun 30 02:50
oiaohmAll the arguments over languages takes focus away from providing developers with great tools.Jun 30 02:51
tabletopyes, and its cross platform, it started on mac i think, its on unix/linux windows and its fun and easy to learn and fun to master.Jun 30 02:51
oiaohm.Net camp really don't have there eye on the ball.Jun 30 02:53
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tabletopwhat I would like to see is a fully FOSS version of a graphical programming framework, different to labVIEW but graphical all the same, that compiles like C to machine code or bytecode.Jun 30 02:55
oiaohmI have a few things I want.Jun 30 02:55
oiaohmOne is able to build like 6 platforms at once threw gcc.  So I can save on generical optimisation time.Jun 30 02:56
tabletopinstead of LVIEWS VI's virtual instrumets, you could have VF vertual functions that are tested and proven working functions that can be used in other projects for code "reuse" and to improve output and qualityJun 30 02:56
oiaohmNext is some form of bytecode gcc that covers everything C can do.Jun 30 02:57
oiaohmThen some super good development tool like labview.Jun 30 02:57
twitterIBM's DX is better for that kind of thing -> "labVIEW is the coolest language, and its available on Linux too"Jun 30 03:00
twitterBut such interfaces are massively annoying to me.Jun 30 03:00
tabletopyes after awile sometimes you do get the need to actually type some code again,Jun 30 03:01
twitterLab View has types for its connections but the types are difficult to see without mousing over the connectors.Jun 30 03:01
tabletopyou get mouse RSIJun 30 03:01
twitterYour chances of hooking things up properly are low.Jun 30 03:02
tabletopyes, its it will type convert if you wire the wrong thing, but you will usually get a broken connection when that happens.Jun 30 03:02
twitterright, so well documented C is quicker.Jun 30 03:03
twitterThen there's devices.... mostly M$ only.Jun 30 03:03
tabletopI actually think for alot of things labVIEW is much faster development platform, and once like with C you develop more and more libraries (VI's) the faster you getJun 30 03:04
tabletopLargest projects ive ever developed used LabVIEW for everything from drivers to front end.Jun 30 03:04
twitterHmph.  I've seen people with 10 year of experience get bogged down for hours doing simple things with Lab View that a proper device library would make trivial.Jun 30 03:05
oiaohmStyle of coder twitterJun 30 03:06
twitterIf you are going to do exactly what National Instruments intended, you might consider buying LabView, but it's expansive for what it is.Jun 30 03:06
twitterYou are much better off separating data collection from display and analysis.Jun 30 03:06
tabletopreally, ive never had that problem, but mabey, but I have had to ring technical assistance, and that was perfect no waiting and the guy stayed late to sort me out,Jun 30 03:06
_Hicham_twitter : it is worth itJun 30 03:07
twitteryou got especially good treatment.Jun 30 03:07
tabletopI would like to see a FOSS general purpose platform that is graphical based like labVIEW, it can compilel to C or whatever, but if you can drag=drop a browser and wire I/O to it and quickly code then it would be worthwhileJun 30 03:08
twitterLook to IBM's DXJun 30 03:08
tabletopI will,Jun 30 03:08
twitterwiring a browser would be silly, but I'm sure you could do it.Jun 30 03:08
twitterDX has the advantage of reasonable image export.Jun 30 03:09
tabletopyou can with labVIEW,Jun 30 03:09
twitteryou might also look into text base browsers and scriptingJun 30 03:09
tabletopor excell, word, a text file, and Operating system file, and CIN "code interface node" that is a C sub-routineJun 30 03:09
tabletopyou can interface with low level hardware, and create GUI's for your app as you go.Jun 30 03:10
twitterexcel in labview.  why not just code the math?Jun 30 03:10
tabletopyou can drag and drop a text file onto the front page, and read/write to is, programatically.Jun 30 03:11
oiaohmGraphical style coder vs text based style coderJun 30 03:11
oiaohmtabletop and twitter.  You are two different beasts you are not going to agree.Jun 30 03:12
twitterwhen collecting data, I value speed and simplicityJun 30 03:12
twitterlabview is an interesting toy, but I do not advise using it for more than demonstrations.Jun 30 03:13
tabletopthey all have their place, but I would like to see a FOSS version and ill look at DX,Jun 30 03:13
_Hicham_twitter : CS have been built on a key concept : abstractionJun 30 03:13
_Hicham_without abstraction, we couldn't have done muchJun 30 03:13
twitterdon't forget to install dxsamples when you do, they give you a good starting pointJun 30 03:15
oiaohmBlender is working on adding a graphical langauge for game programming.Jun 30 03:15
tabletopall said and done computer science and programing languages have not progressed as quickly as tthe computer hardware.Jun 30 03:15
oiaohmJust as an attempt to make it simpler.Jun 30 03:15
tabletopYes, im sure there are several Visual programming languages, I think mabey the Lego language is a bit like that as well ?Jun 30 03:16
_Hicham_tabletop : agreeJun 30 03:16
_Hicham_because in software we don't do much code reuseJun 30 03:16
oiaohmLinux world reuses lots of code.Jun 30 03:16
twitterThe ability to write drivers will help you in Dx.  It is an area I did not look into because I used it for static data analysis.Jun 30 03:17
tabletopthats right, we keep reinventing the wheelJun 30 03:17
_Hicham_oiaohm : not compared to hardwareJun 30 03:17
twitterno, we keep liberating the wheel.Jun 30 03:17
_Hicham_in hardware we reuse much more than in software areaJun 30 03:17
oiaohmEven in hardware there are a lot of dead processor designs.Jun 30 03:17
twitterYou have to remember that all software was once free.  Important software like Maxima.Jun 30 03:17
_Hicham_because software design is not stableJun 30 03:18
oiaohmLinux kernel has taken all these years to start heading into a stable stage.Jun 30 03:18
twitterThe non free software world was established by theft and has been short lived.Jun 30 03:18
twitterFree software is reestablishing itself.Jun 30 03:19
tabletopfree or not the progress of software and programming paradymes has not progressed as fast as Hardware and CPU design, software does not follow moores law.Jun 30 03:19
oiaohmList of features to be implmented in a OS kernel to cover every feature is masive.Jun 30 03:19
oiaohmThe feature list is way larger than creating a CPU.Jun 30 03:19
twitternon free software can not progress quickly - it divides programmers into small groups that are unable to cooperate.Jun 30 03:19
tabletopI wonder what happens in all the Comp Sci departments in the worlds universities ?Jun 30 03:20
oiaohmEach group has been taking small segments of the feature set.Jun 30 03:20
twitterwhen a non free software vendor is bough or otherwise goes out of business, programmer effort is often wastedJun 30 03:20
oiaohmLinux kernel has the most of any OS out there.Jun 30 03:20
oiaohmWe should see Linux kernel head to more stable over the next 2 years.Jun 30 03:21
oiaohmAs the feature list for a OS kernel starts running dry.Jun 30 03:22
_Hicham_and with Link Time Optimization, a lot of things are gonna changeJun 30 03:24
oiaohmThe trend in the Linux kernel world changed about 12 months ago.Jun 30 03:27
oiaohmMajor focus is cleaning up these days not adding that many new features.Jun 30 03:27
_Hicham_oiaohm : what xulrunner series is used in songbird?Jun 30 03:28
oiaohmHave not looked _Hicham_Jun 30 03:28
_Hicham_it would be nice to build it against 1.9.1 seriesJun 30 03:28
oiaohmThink hardware design _Hicham_.  You keep adding features until 1 day you cannot any more than you have to clean up.   That is the point the Linux kernel is now hat.Jun 30 03:29
oiaohmat.Jun 30 03:29
_Hicham_if u can't add, u expandJun 30 03:29
_Hicham_take the CPU exampleJun 30 03:30
oiaohmLinux kernel is to the point where there are less and less feature to add.Jun 30 03:31
oiaohmSo all that is left is performance.Jun 30 03:31
oiaohmtweeking and tiding up the design.Jun 30 03:31
_Hicham_greatJun 30 03:32
oiaohmfinal bits of rtos and real time scanning are the last majors left.    Focus then has to move to improving memory management and other performance areas.Jun 30 03:35
_Hicham_I see that the kernel is going in a great way now that major corporations are contributing moreJun 30 03:36
oiaohmI still remember Linus predicting there would be no 2.8 Linux kernel.Jun 30 03:38
oiaohmAt the way things are going that could be true.Jun 30 03:39
_Hicham_what does he mean by that?Jun 30 03:39
oiaohm2.4 ended because the internal design of the kenrel had to be corrected.Jun 30 03:39
oiaohmThere is nothing in 2.6 design at this stage that will force that event.Jun 30 03:40
tabletopwhat was the kernel when he said that ?Jun 30 03:40
oiaohm2.6.18Jun 30 03:41
oiaohmStill nothing has appear since that will provide a need to create 2.8Jun 30 03:41
oiaohmup until 2.6.18 people were still trying to think up a feature list for 2.8Jun 30 03:47
oiaohmFeature list for 2.8 is still blank.Jun 30 03:47
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yuhong 30 03:59
yuhongWhat do you think?Jun 30 04:00
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fewaoiaohm, well there ever be a 2.8?Jun 30 04:25
fewai think that development model is deadJun 30 04:25
fewathe only version is version 30Jun 30 04:25
fewa2.6 is justahh just needed to read backJun 30 04:27
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twitter1Well, well, look at this 30 04:47
twitter1same talking points and almost the exact same language the trolls threw into comments here recently.Jun 30 04:48
twitter1the folks there do a good job of discussing the question, KDE rocks.Jun 30 04:53
Motoko-chanYeah, looks like the comments actually have good content.Jun 30 05:01
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SeanTilleyHiya.Jun 30 05:04
Motoko-chanHelloJun 30 05:04
SeanTilleyI fullfilled a dream today.Jun 30 05:04
Motoko-chanWhat's that?Jun 30 05:04
SeanTilleyI tried out a clone of AmigaOS, which is as close as I'm probably going to get to an Amiga.Jun 30 05:04
SeanTilleyIt was amazing.Jun 30 05:04
SeanTilleyShame it hasn't really hit the mainstream in the Free Software community, has a lot of great ideas in it.Jun 30 05:05
SeanTilleyIt's called AROS.Jun 30 05:05
SeanTilleyVery cool stuff.Jun 30 05:06
SeanTilleyLinux feels heavy and slow in comparison...Jun 30 05:06
SeanTilley=[Jun 30 05:06
tabletopamigaOS is great, small, powerfull, and fast and a microkernel,Jun 30 05:07
SeanTilleyYeah, I just wish the designs would have been implemented more in Free Software...Jun 30 05:08
SeanTilleyI mean, alot of the ideas could be adapted to say, HURD, and it would go so many places.Jun 30 05:08
tabletopyes, same here, it was years ahead of its time.Jun 30 05:08
SeanTilleyRamdisk, for example.Jun 30 05:08
SeanTilleyI have yet to find that in any other system.Jun 30 05:08
SeanTilleyAh well, it's a shame I missed out on that era in computing.Jun 30 05:09
SeanTilleyI'm just glad to have seen a shimmer of it.Jun 30 05:09
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tabletopthat was the golden time when 6800 based machines had a real chance against the x86 class,  and Amiga's were very very popular. it was the first to have graphics like chrome effects and shodow and rendering, and graphics bobs and spritesJun 30 05:12
SeanTilleyHeh.Jun 30 05:12
SeanTilleyIt was neat delving into it today, on a LiveDVD that ran faster than most of my system installations ever have.Jun 30 05:13
tabletopthtats great, I cant wait, I would put that on myself,Jun 30 05:15
ZiggyfishI didn't think the 6800 was that great (from an instruction set point of view)Jun 30 05:16
SeanTilley 30 05:16
SeanTilleyIn case you want to take a look at it.Jun 30 05:16
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twitter1-> The AROS Research Operating System is a open source lightweight, efficient and flexible desktop operating system, aiming at being compatible with AmigaOS 3.1 at the API level, while improving on it in many areas.Jun 30 06:08
twitter1freedom makes a lot of things betterJun 30 06:08
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twitter1->  Mr. Siegel should be happy that all five of his steps to vanquish mono have already been taken.  This KDE developer thread addresses alternatives, their performance and many other practical issues.  At this point, I think we can all agree that ideological and practical issues are aligned - you don’t have to pick one or the other. Perhaps he will find things he likes there.  Perhaps notJun 30 06:55
twitter1 30 06:55
twitter1;-)Jun 30 06:56
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EruaranhelloJun 30 07:22
Eruaranu there Roy ?Jun 30 07:22
EruaranDunno if you know yetJun 30 07:23
EruaranBut the whole Windows 7 discount upgrade from Vista is pure bullshitJun 30 07:23
EruaranThere is NO DISCOUNTJun 30 07:23
EruaranWhat they are doing is charging more for versions of Vista that come with the upgrade discount formJun 30 07:24
EruaranAnd its usually in the OEM version, so the price is hidden in the total cost of the PCJun 30 07:24
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EruaranCost of Vista Business with Win7 upgrade form is $190 (this is ex tax cost price from a major supplier here in Australia)Jun 30 07:27
EruaranOur cost price INCLUDING tax for Vista Business without the Win7 upgrade form is $150Jun 30 07:28
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EruaranAnyone buying a PC with Vista believing they are getting a "discount" Windows 7 upgrade are being swindled.Jun 30 07:29
EruaranOnly the most arrogant and self assured monopoly can get away with this sort of disgusting scheme.Jun 30 07:30
EruaranEveryone should be told about the prices they are actually charging OEM's and resellers.Jun 30 07:30
schestowitzYeah, well...Jun 30 07:31
schestowitzNo-one would buy this thing anywayJun 30 07:31
EruaranI just told one of our customers - I showed them the prices.Jun 30 07:31
schestowitzMicrosoft will force people to 'get' it with a PCJun 30 07:31
schestowitzAnd then 'upgrade'Jun 30 07:31
EruaranMany Windows users are actually looking at it thinking they will put up with Vista and then upgrade to Vista7 at a discounted price.Jun 30 07:34
EruaranBut there is no discount, they're being conned.Jun 30 07:34
EruaranDoesn't worry me though.Jun 30 07:34
EruaranI've learned from customers today that other retailers are pushing it. I'm the only one who told them the truth. And they're angry.Jun 30 07:35
tabletopI have not been able to find anywhere where they say they will give a discount,Jun 30 07:35
EruaranThe "upgrade form" is what they take to the shop when they buy Windows 7 and get their "discount".Jun 30 07:36
EruaranAt least I think thats what happensJun 30 07:38
EruaranAnyone pushing this offer is participating in a scam.Jun 30 07:39
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schestowitzMS is shrinking: 30 07:40
schestowitzAnother ~700 jobs to go awayJun 30 07:41
Ziggyfishtime to go homeJun 30 07:41
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schestowitzEruaran: Microsoft doesn't know how to make money from WindowsJun 30 07:41
schestowitzSo it's conning peopleJun 30 07:42
schestowitzWindows revenue fell very sharplyJun 30 07:42
schestowitzEruaran: thanks, I'll mention this laterJun 30 07:42
tabletopthey dont need that company now as they have bing for the promotion legJun 30 07:43
schestowitz 30 07:44
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Motoko-chanschestowitz, hey.Jun 30 08:01
schestowitzHey, what's up?Jun 30 08:01
Motoko-chanRegarding that Oracle/MSSQL thing I posted about a while back.Jun 30 08:01
Motoko-chanI don't have the study, but I still have a scan of the advert.Jun 30 08:02
Motoko-chanIt's kinda small, but you might find it interesting.Jun 30 08:02
Motoko-chanCan you accept dcc sends?Jun 30 08:03
EruaranBing News = Google News (only Google News is better)Jun 30 08:06
EruaranBing travel search = KayakJun 30 08:06
Eruaranthey couldn't even be bothered changing the colours...Jun 30 08:07
Motoko-chanAh ha!Jun 30 08:08
Motoko-chanFound the benchmark the advert is mentioningJun 30 08:08
Motoko-chan 30 08:08
Motoko-chan"New results from SAP show that on similarly configured systems, SQL Server 2000 running on Windows Server 2003 outperformed Oracle 9i running on HP-UX. The highest Fully Processed Line Items Per hour, 178,000, has SAP certification number 2005017, and the highest 4-way Oracle result in this benchmark is 88,670, with SAP certification number 2004030."Jun 30 08:09
Motoko-chanYeah, um, the MSSQL server is 8 cores.Jun 30 08:09
Motoko-chanThe Oracle server is 4 cores.Jun 30 08:09
schestowitzCan you use mail?Jun 30 08:09
Motoko-chanSure.Jun 30 08:09
schestowitzI can't work dcc too wellJun 30 08:09
Motoko-chanI just don't want to post my personal site.Jun 30 08:09
Motoko-chanIt's bandwidth-constrained.Jun 30 08:10
schestowitzTHanksJun 30 08:10
Motoko-chanI can link you privately if you want to download it.Jun 30 08:11
Motoko-chanThen you can post it somewhere for your viewers.Jun 30 08:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft to Cut Another 2,000+ Jobs < >Jun 30 08:12
oiaohmAlso HP-UX has the lowest benchmarks with Oracle.   Solarias and Linux out score it.Jun 30 08:12
oiaohmBasically MS cheats on benchmarks at every chance.Jun 30 08:12
Motoko-chanIt's a really stacked config.Jun 30 08:13
Motoko-chanEven with it not being HPUX.Jun 30 08:13
Motoko-chanYou are looking at 4 dual-core Opterons versus 4 single-core Itanium2 processors.Jun 30 08:13
Motoko-chanQuite a big speed difference too.Jun 30 08:14
oiaohmAlso thinking Oracle also runs on windows.Jun 30 08:14
oiaohmBenchmark was very incompletely.Jun 30 08:14
Motoko-chanThe point was to show MSSQL was faster than Oracle.Jun 30 08:14
Motoko-chanThey want you to buy their db, not just the OS.Jun 30 08:15
Motoko-chanFrankly, I find MSSQL to be easier to manage than Oracle.Jun 30 08:15
oiaohmAlso lower clock speed processors.Jun 30 08:15
Motoko-chanOracle is just strange to work with at the best of times.Jun 30 08:15
oiaohmMS should have double the threw put or Oracle but it does not.Jun 30 08:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] YouTube Gets Serious About News < >Jun 30 08:17
Motoko-chanschestowitz, did you get the stuff I sent you on here?Jun 30 08:17
schestowitzIRC or mail?Jun 30 08:17
Motoko-chanI sent in a PMJun 30 08:18
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schestowitzOhJun 30 08:18
Motoko-chanFeel free to download the image, but keep the link private please.Jun 30 08:18
Motoko-chanHmmm. I noticed one more thing about that benchmark comparison. They are 10 months apart.Jun 30 08:19
schestowitzThanksJun 30 08:19
schestowitzI know how to fit thisJun 30 08:19
Motoko-chanIt's just one more effort on Microsoft's part to spin bad data into a convincing glossy blurb to appeal to the C-levels.Jun 30 08:21
schestowitzFoxconn says it's not quitting the channel < >Jun 30 08:21
Motoko-chanI don't mind if they do a fair comparison and win, but this kind of stuff just hurts their credibility.Jun 30 08:22
schestowitzThanks. Let me prepare a postJun 30 08:22
schestowitzYet Another Company Sues Google For Not Being In Google's Index < > Haha.Jun 30 08:23
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Motoko-chanNice. Well, no publicity is bad publicity.Jun 30 08:24
Motoko-chanAnd the company gets its name out there.Jun 30 08:25
schestowitzWell, yeah.Jun 30 08:26
schestowitzBut to shut about this is worseJun 30 08:26
schestowitzThey did the same with IBM last monthJun 30 08:26
Motoko-chanI missed that oneJun 30 08:26
schestowitzPersonal attacks for Mono commence: 30 08:30
*Motoko-chan still doesn't understand the "KDE4 is a failure" argumentJun 30 08:31
oiaohmKDE 4.0 was a marketing failure.Jun 30 08:35
oiaohmMarketing and development teams did not talk cleanly  with each other.Jun 30 08:35
schestowitz "Down for Maintenance"Jun 30 08:35
oiaohmSo leading to users trying KDE 4.0 who should never have seen it.Jun 30 08:35
schestowitzIncluding LinusJun 30 08:36
oiaohmKDE 4.3 is starting to show promise.Jun 30 08:39
Motoko-chanI'm on 4.2 and enjoying it.Jun 30 08:39
Motoko-chanI like the direction it's going.Jun 30 08:39
Motoko-chanGood night.Jun 30 08:39
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schestowitzDebunking Canadian health care myths < >Jun 30 08:46
schestowitzI likes KDE 4 when I used it elsewhere. I'll hop onto it when I upgrade my machinesJun 30 08:47
schestowitzWOT? "The Central Intelligence Agency crucified a prisoner in Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, according to a report published in The New Yorker magazine. " 30 08:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Obama contemplates Executive Order for detention without charges 30 08:52
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] RT: @Mark_Antony: Hidden cost of Windows - £600k *consultancy* to purge cornficker from Manchester council.Jun 30 08:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Latest Benchmark Fraud 30 09:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Dublin DC Could be Indicative of the Notorious Tax Evasion Conspiracy 30 09:47
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Computer Shops Participate in Vista 7 “Scam” < >Jun 30 10:17
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oiaohm  By by pirate bay as it was.Jun 30 10:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @AndyAndMike no, mentioning cbeebies doesn't mean I want random children's comedy spammers thanks. Die in a fire please.Jun 30 11:22
schestowitzbblJun 30 11:36
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thenixedreport1TPB guys are saying not to worry.Jun 30 11:53
thenixedreport1I wonder what their plans are?Jun 30 11:53 says they're pulling a napsterJun 30 11:54
MinceRwhile TPB says everything will carry on normallyJun 30 11:54
oiaohmTPB sold yes it is very much napsterJun 30 11:56
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MinceR  vs 30 12:05
oiaohmRemember what napster turned into when it went legal.Jun 30 12:10
oiaohmSimple fact for the pirates its over.Jun 30 12:10
MinceRno, for the pirates it's time to switch to the next one. :>Jun 30 12:11
oiaohmExactly so pirate bay will become another shadow like napster is today.Jun 30 12:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @firefox: Firefox 3.5 will be available later today. Help us spread the word! #fx35Jun 30 12:42
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trmanco 30 13:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shiretoko Shock: #fx35Jun 30 13:27
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EruaranhelloJun 30 13:29
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft chief quits. 30 14:22
schestowitzPeople use us to debunk the lies from Net ApplicationsJun 30 14:25
schestowitz 30 14:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hulu locks out PS3 Users, Others to follow? < >Jun 30 14:27
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*hicham is now known as _Hicham_Jun 30 14:33
_Hicham_Hi oiaohmJun 30 14:34
nicktasticThe reason TPB says we shouldn't worry is specious :\Jun 30 14:40
oiaohmnicktastic: history repeatsJun 30 14:41
oiaohmStarts to get boring after a while.Jun 30 14:41
nicktasticYeah.Jun 30 14:42
oiaohmThe do not worry line also come from napster.Jun 30 14:42
schestowitzI see that news is slow this week. I'll take the break earlyJun 30 14:42
nicktasticAhJun 30 14:42
schestowitzI'll still pop in (online) occasionally, but it seems like a great time to take a break. Long weekend too due to July 4thJun 30 14:43
nicktasticI didn't pay attention at the timeJun 30 14:43
*nicktastic wavesJun 30 14:43
schestowitzMicrosoft's sidewalk memorial to Encarta, Money and other fossils < >Jun 30 14:44
oiaohmI am am getting tot he point of being around too long in the IT world.Jun 30 14:44
schestowitzMicrosoft is fortunately self-destructingJun 30 14:44
oiaohmI am losing my means to take short term views of things.Jun 30 14:44
schestowitzoiaohm: China will take it all :-)Jun 30 14:44
twitter1Sidewalk for Ecarta?  If they want people to remember it, they should donate it to Wikipedia as free images, music and articles.Jun 30 14:46
twitter1Here's MAFIAA propaganda 30 14:47
schestowitzI can't get the content here to display:,page,63,topic_id,content_pagesJun 30 14:47
schestowitztwitter: mind you, it's from a MS-sponsored Web siteJun 30 14:47
schestowitzThey usually hide MS weaknessesJun 30 14:47
twitter1all the usual lies, "90% of content is stolen" bsJun 30 14:48
twitter1the war against sharing continuesJun 30 14:48
schestowitzRMS wrote yesterday about the MAFIAA propaganda machineJun 30 14:48
schestowitzHe linked to Michael Geist's blogJun 30 14:49
schestowitzStolen is not the proper term, eitherJun 30 14:49
schestowitzI stopped reading IDG some months agoJun 30 14:49
schestowitzMakes me happy(ier)Jun 30 14:49
oiaohmChina is a funny country.Jun 30 14:50
oiaohmMost likely they will stay put.Jun 30 14:51
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schestowitzInstall Firefox 3.5 30 14:54
twitter1I'm very tired of MAFIAA propaganda and I'm ready for copyright abolition.Jun 30 14:55
twitter1copyright is the only thing standing between people and the world's greatest public libraryJun 30 14:55
schestowitzMore Mono trolls posting in BN from (near Novell HQ)Jun 30 14:56
twitter1it only represents the interests of large, obsolete publishers nowJun 30 14:56
nicktasticBN?Jun 30 14:56
twitter1publishers who cling to monopolies that broadcast and acid paper gave themJun 30 14:56
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schestowitzThe spiration is for copyright flexibilittJun 30 14:58
schestowitzFlexibility as in fair use for exampleJun 30 14:58
twitter1the damage those publishers do is obvious from stupid laws like the DMCA which outlaw free software as "copyright circumvention"Jun 30 14:58
schestowitzCopyright is still needed even to enorce GPLJun 30 14:58
schestowitzBuy copyright is a broad concept/term, then there's commonsJun 30 14:58
schestowitzOr open access, which is not the same as copyleftJun 30 14:59
schestowitznicktastic: yesJun 30 14:59
schestowitzWe have troll comments from NovellersJun 30 14:59
twitter1Without copyright, there would be no need for GPL.Jun 30 14:59
schestowitzNot exacltyJun 30 14:59
oiaohmGPL would not exist without copyright.Jun 30 14:59
twitter1the kind of business interests that abuse copyright would go away without government protectionJun 30 14:59
schestowitzRemember you need to demand copies for binaries made from codeJun 30 15:00
schestowitzassignment of attribution alone is similar to coyrightJun 30 15:00
schestowitzSo when I sign a letter I write I claim it my ownJun 30 15:00
trmanco 30 15:00
twitter1M$ would fall over and other publishers of non free software would not be able to do damageJun 30 15:00
oiaohmGPL uses copyright to force giving back.Jun 30 15:00
schestowitzWhat I allow others to do has little to do with copyright aloneJun 30 15:00
oiaohmIn a world without copyright trade secrets could dominate more.Jun 30 15:01
twitter1attribution does not require the ability to restrict othersJun 30 15:01
schestowitzIt doesJun 30 15:01
schestowitzTo require attribution is to make a restrictionJun 30 15:01
oiaohmAttribution does not require person to give up the secrets.Jun 30 15:01
schestowitzAs in, use this, but I restrict use based on this donditionJun 30 15:01
oiaohmAttribution happens with BSD all the time.Jun 30 15:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @shiflett: PHP 5.3 has been released: !phpJun 30 15:02
schestowitzEven FSF requires adding licensing info to contentyJun 30 15:02
schestowitzoiaohm: indeedJun 30 15:02
oiaohmThe world needs something like GPL.Jun 30 15:02
twitter1they do this because abusers exist - those abusers would go away without copyright to protect themJun 30 15:02
schestowitzit mazimises sharingJun 30 15:02
oiaohmIf you nuke copyright you would have to create another system to allow the forcing of sharing.Jun 30 15:03
schestowitzAnd reduces reproduction, taking into account reproducibilityJun 30 15:03
twitter1saying that restrictions maximize sharing is like saying firearms maximize healthcareJun 30 15:03
oiaohmIn the case of GPL its true.Jun 30 15:03
oiaohmGPL has restrictions that say it must be shared.Jun 30 15:03
MinceRas long as we need forcing sharingJun 30 15:04
oiaohmIts a ill wind that does no good twitter1Jun 30 15:04
MinceRwe should nuke m$ and crApple along with copyrights.Jun 30 15:04
twitter1M$ and Apple will fall over without copyright "protection"Jun 30 15:04
oiaohmThe good you have to see and work out a way to keep alive.Jun 30 15:04
twitter1it removes income from those who abuse computer usersJun 30 15:05
oiaohmIts one thing to remove copyright.Jun 30 15:05
oiaohmWhat are you going to put in it place to allow the good GPL provides to keep on happing.Jun 30 15:05
twitter1without that income, their selfish little business model falls apartJun 30 15:05
krensook, imagine there is no copyrights. But still you would get only binaries from some corporations. Maybe some day source will leak.Jun 30 15:05
twitter1If it were not for M$'s OEM and retail manipulation, Windows would have fallen to free software ten years ago.Jun 30 15:06
schestowitzYou know that you wrote too much Python, when < >Jun 30 15:06
oiaohmRemoving copyright does not prevent DRM or closed source existing twitter1Jun 30 15:06
twitter1copyright creates an artificial scarcity that funds M$'s monopoly abuse.Jun 30 15:06
oiaohmSo can DRM.Jun 30 15:07
schestowitzCopyrights are not opposite of sharingJun 30 15:07
schestowitzThat's a misconceptionJun 30 15:07
schestowitzIt's not patentsJun 30 15:07
oiaohmCopyrights can be pro sharing like the case of GPL and creative commons.Jun 30 15:07
twitter1copyright says, "only I can make copies of my work"Jun 30 15:07
schestowitzWhich is why "intellectual monopoly" does not existJun 30 15:07
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oiaohmCopyright does not have to say that twitter1Jun 30 15:07
schestowitzTrade marks are like names too. TOTALLY different stuffJun 30 15:07
oiaohmIt can say you can make copies of my work as long as you follow the following conditions.Jun 30 15:08
twitter1yes, trademark and copyright have different purposesJun 30 15:08
oiaohmBSD is a copyright that says you can basically do anything.Jun 30 15:08
twitter1trademark has been abused as well but serves a reasonable purposeJun 30 15:08
oiaohmSo copyright is not the complete evil here.Jun 30 15:08
oiaohmDepending how it used is if its evil or not twitter1Jun 30 15:09
oiaohmYou are disreguarding the good uses.Jun 30 15:09
twitter1copyright's purpose was to encourage publication and the enlargement of the public domain.Jun 30 15:09
oiaohmThat was a good goal.Jun 30 15:09
oiaohmGPL and Creative common use copyright to follow that goal.Jun 30 15:10
twitter1it should be obvious that the kinds of encouragement required for dead tree publishing are no longer requiredJun 30 15:10
kentmatwitter1: it wasn't about the paperwork.Jun 30 15:10
twitter1oh yes it wasJun 30 15:10
kentmatwitter1: it was about the behaviour of people.Jun 30 15:10
kentmatwitter1: specifically, whether they shared ideas or not.Jun 30 15:11
oiaohmGPL uses it to encourage publishing of source code.Jun 30 15:11
twitter1US copyright was all about encouraging people to risk their money publishing on paperJun 30 15:11
oiaohmFor what otherwise would be closed source binaries twitter1Jun 30 15:11
oiaohmIn this day and age.Jun 30 15:11
oiaohmSo copyright still is doing good things twitter1Jun 30 15:11
twitter1a temporary monopoly was granted for writing on paper in order to encourage publicationJun 30 15:11
kentmatwitter1: I think you're really missing the point of all this in an exceedingly big way.Jun 30 15:12
twitter1Jefferson knew that ideas were not property and would always spreadJun 30 15:12
oiaohmGPL allows you to use the source code as long as you agree to publish.Jun 30 15:12
oiaohmthe source code.Jun 30 15:12
oiaohmUsing the rules of copyright twitter1Jun 30 15:12
oiaohmSomething has to be placed to replace the good GPL does.Jun 30 15:13
oiaohmIf you nuke copyright.Jun 30 15:13
twitter1I don't think I can be more clear, kentma.Jun 30 15:13
schestowitzHehe. Internet Explorer in Ubuntu < >Jun 30 15:13
kentmatwitter1: copyright started in the UK, and it was about copying of books.Jun 30 15:13
oiaohmWithout it MS could take GPL source embed it in a closed source binary and release it.Jun 30 15:13
oiaohmSo reducing there R&DJun 30 15:13
twitter1US copyright was created in explicit protest of UK copyright.Jun 30 15:13
kentmatwitter1: I think it was 1662.Jun 30 15:13
oiaohmSo reducing the profit they need to make twitter1Jun 30 15:14
oiaohmSo making pirated stuff less of a issue to them.Jun 30 15:14
oiaohmUsing DRM they still could live.Jun 30 15:14
oiaohmSo removal of copyright could be a no op event.Jun 30 15:14
twitter1permanent ownership of maps, plays and other works on paper was seen as an abomination and tyranny by the US foundersJun 30 15:14
kentmatwitter1:  the US spent many decades deliberately flouting patent, copyright and lord knows what else...Jun 30 15:15
oiaohmto be correct even more damaging that it is now.Jun 30 15:15
oiaohmIdea that removing copyright will cure problem is wrong twitter1Jun 30 15:15
twitter1The US sought to make such works available to everyone.Jun 30 15:15
twitter1That was the point of US copyright law.Jun 30 15:15
oiaohmA means to tag works that if you build on this you must release what you have done needs to exist.Jun 30 15:16
oiaohmDestroy that you do major harm twitter1Jun 30 15:16
twitter1Now that the US is the predominant world power, we see it's laws abused to achieve the same purpose as ancient UK copyright laws.Jun 30 15:16
oiaohmI am not saying that USA copyright law is right twitter1Jun 30 15:17
oiaohmYou just need to take a broader view of the issue.Jun 30 15:17
oiaohmSome areas in copyright need changing twitter1Jun 30 15:17
twitter1encrypted works will never enter the public domain and should never have copyright protection, for example, yet US law outlaws sharing of software that decrypts.Jun 30 15:17
oiaohmLike when items covert from copyrighted to public domain.Jun 30 15:18
twitter1The point of US copyright law was to advance knowledge and art.Jun 30 15:18
oiaohmLack of copyright laws would encourage more encrypted works.Jun 30 15:18
twitter1The US Constitution is quite clear and has to be grossly twisted to be abused the way it is.Jun 30 15:19
oiaohmThis is why removing copyright is not a option.Jun 30 15:19
MinceRso it's not an option now?Jun 30 15:19
oiaohmWithout other counter measers.Jun 30 15:19
MinceRinteresting.Jun 30 15:19
oiaohmThe tech for DRM and other nightmare techs exist.Jun 30 15:20
twitter1Most US copyright law flagrantly violates the US Constitution.Jun 30 15:21
MinceRand copyright law prevents DRM? no, it doesn't.Jun 30 15:21
oiaohmWhen the time encryption fails completely you might have a option to remove copyright laws.Jun 30 15:21
MinceRso i don't see how it isn't even an option to remove it.Jun 30 15:21
oiaohmCopyright laws are netural on DRM.Jun 30 15:21
MinceRit might be undesirable, but it's certainly an option.Jun 30 15:21
taconeguess one riaaa trial is been fought basing on the non-constitionalnessJun 30 15:22
taconeis beingJun 30 15:22
schestowitzMore Funny Linux Posters - Or, Part Two < >Jun 30 15:22
oiaohmBut without copyright more companies would look at the DRM option MinceRJun 30 15:22
MinceRthat isn't really proven or quantified. one can't just ignore this option.Jun 30 15:23
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oiaohmThe higher the pirate rate of items more companies look at DRM too MinceRJun 30 15:23
oiaohmSo it tested.Jun 30 15:23
MinceRDRM is a fad.Jun 30 15:24
oiaohmVery old fadJun 30 15:24
twitter1restrictions are evilJun 30 15:24
MinceRthey can look at it all day and it still won't work.Jun 30 15:24
MinceRat least for copyright enforcement/replacement.Jun 30 15:24
oiaohmNot everyone has the skills to break DRM.Jun 30 15:24
MinceRin a closed, controlled environment it could be a document security measureJun 30 15:24
MinceRit takes only one person to break itJun 30 15:24
twitter1DRM is broadcasters and book publishers trying to impose old limits on the digital world to create a scarcity that need not existJun 30 15:25
twitter1but you can't count on being able to break it foreverJun 30 15:25
twitter1it's better to not protect restricted works in the first placeJun 30 15:25
oiaohmMinceR: the deeper it gets embeded into devices the harder DRM will become to break.Jun 30 15:25
twitter1why should my tax money be spent on such stupid restrictions?Jun 30 15:25
MinceRoiaohm: DRM must be eliminated, regardless of copyright lawJun 30 15:26
oiaohmRemoving copyright would accelerate that process.Jun 30 15:26
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at.Jun 30 15:26
oiaohmYou cannot just remove copyright law.Jun 30 15:26
twitter1does anyone really get angry when someone makes a copy of some Disney work for their neighbor?Jun 30 15:26
MinceRwhat process?Jun 30 15:26
oiaohmIf you have not dealt with DRM.Jun 30 15:26
MinceRis DRM spreading now?Jun 30 15:26
MinceRlast time i checked it was failingJun 30 15:26
MinceRDRM on music is already being droppedJun 30 15:27
oiaohmNext generation DRM is looking at being embed in screens.Jun 30 15:27
MinceReven crApple gave up on itJun 30 15:27
MinceRthey'll fail on that front tooJun 30 15:27
oiaohmCurrent DRM fails because it was software users could get at.Jun 30 15:27
oiaohmIf you cannot get at the DRM system you basically become locked out.Jun 30 15:28
MinceRhw DRM can be cracked tooJun 30 15:28
oiaohmDepends on type.Jun 30 15:28
MinceRespecially considering that they aren't willing to pay the price of making everything tamper-resistantJun 30 15:28
oiaohmHas the xbox360 being fully broken.Jun 30 15:29
MinceRalso, if all else fails, they can still get the analog signalJun 30 15:29
MinceRi don't really care about xboxesJun 30 15:29
MinceRor consoles in generalJun 30 15:29
oiaohmAnswer is no.Jun 30 15:29
oiaohmIt has not been fully broken.Jun 30 15:29
MinceRand that proves that it won't ever be broken?Jun 30 15:29
oiaohmIts design is extreamly resistant to being broken.Jun 30 15:30
oiaohmMostly because users cannot run what they like on it.Jun 30 15:30
trmancoFirefox 3.5 has been releasedJun 30 15:30
oiaohmThe more closed the black box around the DRM becomes the harder cracking it will become MinceR.Jun 30 15:31
oiaohmUntil its taking years to crack each black box.Jun 30 15:31
oiaohmAnd costing the end user more.Jun 30 15:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] está na hora, está na hora, está na hora de redirecionar todas as visitas para um página especial :-PJun 30 15:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] São quase 3:50, 15:50 :-PJun 30 15:32
oiaohmDRM is the devil we have to worry about MinceR.Jun 30 15:32
schestowitzMiguel begs for Apple live.. 30 15:32
MinceRit is, but we're winningJun 30 15:32
MinceRi'd prefer apple dead.Jun 30 15:33
oiaohmWinning most because the first ones took the cheep development path.Jun 30 15:33
MinceRthe sdk license won't allow anyone to release mono for the jesusPhone anyway.Jun 30 15:33
oiaohmProblem is custom chips are coming cheep.Jun 30 15:34
MinceRtamper-resistant custom chips?Jun 30 15:34
oiaohmSo DRM in hardware as black boxs will become more possiable.Jun 30 15:34
MinceRremember, all we need is one person to get the keyJun 30 15:34
oiaohmThe are already under the 50 USD mark MinceR.Jun 30 15:34
oiaohmWhat if each device has a unique key MinceR.Jun 30 15:35
MinceRthen they'll decrypt movies for that one unique keyJun 30 15:35
MinceRif pirating is so difficult, someone will break it once and _sell_ the resultJun 30 15:36
oiaohmAnd everything decrypted is watermarked with its source.Jun 30 15:36
MinceRwatermarks can be removedJun 30 15:36
oiaohmSo where ever you break will only last a short ammont of time.Jun 30 15:36
oiaohmYou can only remove watermarks if you know they are there.Jun 30 15:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shocking news! New Firefox 3.5 is out: #fx35Jun 30 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shockingly fast! Check out the fastest Firefox ever: #fx35Jun 30 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Shock 'n' Roll with Firefox 3.5 #fx35Jun 30 15:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @MozCreative: Firefox 3.5 is live - go get it! #firefox #fx35Jun 30 15:37
oiaohmLot of movie pirates at moment are being tracked down by the watermarks MinceR.Jun 30 15:37
kentmatwitter1:  I wouldn't say that I'd be angry, at least, no more angry than when someone parks illegally, or breaks the speed limit, or chucks their rubbish into my hedge.  Frankly, the latter affects me far more than the other things do.Jun 30 15:37
MinceRoiaohm: then they have a motivation to find a way to remove watermarks. :)Jun 30 15:38
MinceRit only takes an inside sourceJun 30 15:38
MinceRand the more watermarking is used the more such sources will be availableJun 30 15:38
kentmatwitter1: but I imagine that Disney don't like it much, but there is a solution if they want to hold onto their films, which is to keep them in the cinema.  This is what they did for many many years.Jun 30 15:39
MinceRalso, remember that people don't care that much about quality degradationJun 30 15:39
MinceRin generalJun 30 15:39
oiaohmDepends on the watermark.Jun 30 15:39
MinceReven recordings off the movie screen were spreadJun 30 15:39
oiaohmCase hear was tracked to a person recording a out side movie theather.  with a cammera by the watermarks in the move displayed on screen.Jun 30 15:40
oiaohmSo dropping quality does not mean you have destroyed the watermark.Jun 30 15:41
oiaohmYou could have destroyed everything but the watermark.Jun 30 15:41
kentmadon't make dodgy copies, then...Jun 30 15:41
MinceRhow did they know which person was it? theaters tend to be watched by many people.Jun 30 15:41
oiaohmBecause the idiot came back MinceRJun 30 15:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me vai comer, depois vais escrever sobre o Firefox 3.5 e depois disso vai por online a página especial :-P com video html embebido :)Jun 30 15:42
kentmaMI5, when seeding "secret" documents to track down moles (foreign spies) used to make every copy of a particular document just slightly different, and then monitor the distribution of them.Jun 30 15:42
oiaohmAnd had recorded from the same location many different times MinceR.Jun 30 15:42
MinceRkentma: so should we expect slightly differently edited copies of movies? :)Jun 30 15:42
kentmayes.Jun 30 15:42
MinceRoiaohm: i seeJun 30 15:42
MinceRthen again, delaying some cuts by 1 frame shouldn't be difficultJun 30 15:43
MinceRthat's 1 bit per cutJun 30 15:43
kentmaOrdnance survey did this with their maps, too, and in the end, caught a major mapping company copying their maps.Jun 30 15:43
oiaohmOne case was different numbers of computer generated rain drops MinceR.Jun 30 15:43
MinceRicJun 30 15:43
kentmaI forget which one, but there was a *huge* settlement.Jun 30 15:43
oiaohmSimplely frease frame at the right point and count the rain drops.Jun 30 15:43
oiaohmThe number told you where.Jun 30 15:43
oiaohmThe water mark could be in plain view.Jun 30 15:44
oiaohmIf you know where to look.Jun 30 15:44
oiaohmThis is why lowing quality does not work MinceR.Jun 30 15:45
MinceRcomparing some copies could help thoughJun 30 15:45
oiaohmThat is if you have truly got you hands on independant copies.Jun 30 15:45
oiaohmIf you have you can find watermarks fairly simplely.Jun 30 15:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @brunomiguel: a notícia do lançamento do firefox 3.5 já está no vejam aqui --> #firefox #fx35 #FRFX35Jun 30 15:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Ubuntu/Canonical publishes Mono Position Statement 30 15:47
oiaohmAnother one for picture theaters is comparing to secuirty cam footage for damage that has happened to the film in its traval.Jun 30 15:47
oiaohmNaturally creating watermark MinceRJun 30 15:47
MinceRuntil they switch to digital technology :>Jun 30 15:48
oiaohmEven with digital tech the protector colors can be slightly off.Jun 30 15:48
oiaohmAnother naturally added defect.Jun 30 15:48
oiaohmThis is the problem nature also adds watermarks.Jun 30 15:48
MinceRicJun 30 15:49
oiaohmThis is what I am mean about watermarks being in plain view.Jun 30 15:50
MinceRthen again, watermarks become useless without copyright lawJun 30 15:50
MinceRbecause you don't prevent copying, only sue for itJun 30 15:50
oiaohmNot exactly.Jun 30 15:50
MinceRyou could find a leak but that's a lot less powerfulJun 30 15:51
oiaohmYou still know from watermarks where to make the last place to release.Jun 30 15:51
taconeok, usual statement on mono.Jun 30 15:51
oiaohmSo you make the most money MinceRJun 30 15:51
MinceRtacone: ?Jun 30 15:51
tacone 30 15:52
oiaohmCopyright removed does not remove that profit gaining option.Jun 30 15:52
oiaohmThere are reason why picture threaters police the no video cams.Jun 30 15:52
oiaohmIf they are tracked as being a pirate source they will get movies latter.Jun 30 15:52
taconeoffliningJun 30 15:53
taconecheersJun 30 15:53
oiaohmDRM would still allow these kinds of enforcement to exist MinceRJun 30 15:53
oiaohmIts why just removing copyright will basically do nothing MinceR.Jun 30 15:54
oiaohmThe system will just reshape and keep on doing the same things.Jun 30 15:54
oiaohmRemove DRM first then you can think about removing copyright.Jun 30 15:55
oiaohmI guess its not the answer you were expecting MinceRJun 30 15:56
MinceRDRM could still be outlawed.Jun 30 15:56
MinceRi'm also working.Jun 30 15:56
oiaohmOutlaw DRM first.Jun 30 15:56
oiaohmOut law it secound you could have a huge stack of DRM protected usless crap.Jun 30 15:57
MinceRor i could always go for the anarchist option :>Jun 30 15:57
MinceRtacone: i'll read it.Jun 30 15:57
oiaohmCopyright is really not a major threat.Jun 30 15:57
oiaohmits a pest at worst.Jun 30 15:58
MinceRit's a problem thoughJun 30 15:58
oiaohmCopyright is not a large problem.Jun 30 15:58
MinceRif it weren't a problem, we wouldn't need the GPL to subvert its mechanism.Jun 30 15:58
oiaohmGPL is curing another problem.Jun 30 15:59
twitter1The GPL is an elegant kludge that sits half way between the paper past and the digital future.Jun 30 15:59
oiaohmWhere people don't want to give back.Jun 30 15:59
oiaohmRemoving copyright you have to replace GPL with something.Jun 30 15:59
oiaohmRemoving DRM you don't have anything to replace it with.Jun 30 15:59
MinceRor i'll have to cure the reason for its existence.Jun 30 15:59
twitter1When people understand software freedom, they will demand it in positive terms - software freedom laws rather than copy restriction laws.Jun 30 15:59
MinceRwe're far from people understanding any kind of freedomJun 30 16:00
twitter1We see the beginnings of this demand in ODF and open access laws.Jun 30 16:00
oiaohmThere will be people who will always want to be greedy twitter1Jun 30 16:00
twitter1We are much closer than you think to an outbreak of common sense.Jun 30 16:00
oiaohmGPL keeps a lot of them in line.Jun 30 16:00
MinceRi really hope so.Jun 30 16:00
MinceRtwitter1: why do you think so?Jun 30 16:01
oiaohmIf you want to remove copyright you have to put up something to replace GPL.Jun 30 16:01
twitter1Non free software, at its core, is a fraud.  People will make positive laws to prevent such fraud.Jun 30 16:01
oiaohmLike a sharing law.Jun 30 16:01
oiaohmSo greedy people can be pulled into line.Jun 30 16:01
twitter1I think people are understanding the true nature of digital restrictions and non free software.Jun 30 16:01
oiaohmIts human nature to be greedy.Jun 30 16:01
MinceRoiaohm: or you need to get rid of the practice of stealing. if it isn't widespread then the market can punish it.Jun 30 16:01
twitter1They demand free access to government publications.Jun 30 16:02
MinceRoiaohm: or with the right amount and kind of deregulation, angry people can punish it too :>Jun 30 16:02
twitter1They never wanted and are tired of digital restrictions and other artificial restrictions on sharing their culture.Jun 30 16:02
oiaohmSharing culture is one thing.Jun 30 16:03
twitter1It does not take much to connect those dots and come up with laws to protect a free digital future.Jun 30 16:03
twitter1It takes tremendous effort by the copyright warriors to pretend black is white and that restrictions encourage sharing.Jun 30 16:03
oiaohmYou agree twitter1 drm has to go first so copyright holders don't just switch to that.Jun 30 16:03
twitter1They spend billions to create this illusion, but people like RMS understood the problems 30 years ago.Jun 30 16:04
oiaohmTime has moved on.Jun 30 16:04
oiaohmRMS was not dealing with the risk of DRM back then.Jun 30 16:04
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twitter1Creation and distribution are separate issues, copyright confuses them in a way that was suited to the paper past.  People are starting to understand the digital present.Jun 30 16:05
twitter1They will demand their freedom.Jun 30 16:05
twitter1bblJun 30 16:05
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] celery 1200 obtained from @secretlondon. size of a starship console. running xubuntu 6.06. not bad :-) will prob netbook it.Jun 30 16:17
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schestowitzHa!Jun 30 16:40
schestowitzIt turns out MS paid for the 'ODF lunch'Jun 30 16:40
schestowitzConfirmed by the jouralistJun 30 16:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @canen: Firefox 3.5 download stats !firefox #fx35Jun 30 16:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Migration in Munich is Expanding 30 16:47
*tacone (n=Adium@ has joined #boycottnovellJun 30 16:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Control of Computing as the #1 Reason to GNU/Linux 30 16:52
trmanco 30 16:52
trmancothey still don't understandJun 30 16:52
taconeunsurprising positionJun 30 16:53
schestowitzIt's like the 3 monosJun 30 16:55
schestowitzWon't talk, won't hear, won't seeJun 30 16:55
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trmancololJun 30 16:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell and Acer Both Use GNU/Linux in Their Desktop Strategy 30 17:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mac OS X Does Not Look Better Than GNU/Linux 30 17:02
*amarsh04 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 30 17:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Games Galore and More New Games 30 17:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KDE 4.3 Screencast is Released and Killer Apps Reviewed 30 17:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Children's GNU/Linux Distributions in Review 30 17:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat/Fedora Tribute 30 17:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu GNU/Linux Still Very Popular , Works for Users 30 17:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Mint 7 Works Splendidly 30 17:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New reviews of Ultimate Edition Linux 2.2 (Maximalist Ubuntu) 30 17:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell Talks About Its Support of Ubuntu GNU/Linux 30 17:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Handy tip: tidying the house in humid heat is a good way to make yourself a bit unwell.Jun 30 17:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i've been using KDE 4.3 in Kubuntu 9.10 alphas. It's really, really nice.Jun 30 17:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Tal como prometi, !firefox #fx35Jun 30 17:42
schestowitztrmanco is a Firefox enthusiast, methinksJun 30 17:43
trmancoschestowitz, http://open-mania.comJun 30 17:43
trmancoas I promissedJun 30 17:43
nicktasticI always thought compiz looked way better than OS X.Jun 30 17:43
trmancopromisedJun 30 17:43
schestowitznicktastic: is doesJun 30 17:43
schestowitznicktastic: the point I was making is that Aqua/Brushed Metal exist for Linux too (shall one love them so much)Jun 30 17:44
nicktasticAh :)Jun 30 17:44
schestowitztrmanco: +1Jun 30 17:44
trmancoschestowitz, all the traffic is being redirected to that pageJun 30 17:44
schestowitzMozilla sends you a cake right nowJun 30 17:44
nicktasticMmm <video>Jun 30 17:44
schestowitzYeah, video. BN is full of that Jun 30 17:44
trmanco24 hoursJun 30 17:45
trmancosoJun 30 17:45
trmancoI hope to make a slight impact :-PJun 30 17:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Will Sub-notebooks Running GNU/Linux be Available for Free? 30 17:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard: I used KDE4 today. Loved it!Jun 30 17:47
trmancohere is how it look in 3.5 30 17:47
trmancolooks*Jun 30 17:47
schestowitzI'm gonna install it in an hourJun 30 17:48
schestowitzDoes it scroll OK in BN?Jun 30 17:48
schestowitzIn daily links, do the Oggs come up all right?Jun 30 17:48
schestowitzIf not, then I need to modify the CSSJun 30 17:48
trmancoit scrolls alrightJun 30 17:49
trmancogive me a link to a videoJun 30 17:49
schestowitzBTW, I've just checked Ad bard for the first time (ever). It pays us just $1 per day. That along with hosting might be OKJun 30 17:49
schestowitztrmanco: open "Links: <whatever>"Jun 30 17:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Price of GNU/Linux-based Sub-notebooks Drops to Around $139 30 17:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i'm now torn between KDE 4.3 and Netbook Remix for the old laptop I just got from @secretlondon today ;-)Jun 30 17:52
trmancoschestowitz, yep works and looks greatJun 30 17:53
schestowitzWhat a relief!Jun 30 17:55
schestowitz_Hitchem_ scared meJun 30 17:55
schestowitz*chamJun 30 17:55
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 20,000-plus Employees Business Goes to Free Software, GNU/Linux 30 17:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SourceForge Breaks the 4 Billion Barrier (Downloads) 30 18:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Group Commences the Fight to Shoot Down the ACTA Beast 30 18:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] BPI Regrets Attack on Napster and The Pirate Bay Acquired for Millions (Deja Vu) 30 18:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The SFLC Says "No" to Mono 30 18:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Employee Benefit at Microsoft Down by a Staggering $1.4 billion 30 18:12
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Monuments of Dead Products Build Up 30 18:17
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*schestowitz backs up firefox profileJun 30 18:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shuts Down MSN Web Messenger -- Permanently 30 18:22
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Wow. Firefox 3.5 scrolls better than 3.0. I love it!!!Jun 30 18:32
schestowitzVideo works nicely. Nice controls. 30 18:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Off to pub for date with @nyecamden. Tuesday is Pembury Geek Night! (As is Sunday.)Jun 30 18:37
schestowitzSo many plguins are incompatible nowJun 30 18:45
schestowitzHmmmmm......Jun 30 18:45
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Omar87Hi everyone!Jun 30 19:01
Omar87Ya know guys?Jun 30 19:01
Omar87As much as I really like how flexible, user-friendly and robust Gnome is, as much as I'm really starting to consider looking for alternatives.Jun 30 19:03
Omar87KDE is unfortunately off my list.Jun 30 19:03
Omar87XFCE is just stupid.Jun 30 19:03
Omar87So now, I'm not sure where to look..Jun 30 19:04
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nicktasticstumpwm ;)Jun 30 19:12
MinceRkde3 ;)Jun 30 19:15
Omar87nicktastic: Is it good?Jun 30 19:16
nicktasticOmar87: I doubt you'll like itJun 30 19:18
schestowitze17/fluxbox?Jun 30 19:18
schestowitznicktastic: he jokesJun 30 19:18
schestowitz* Omar87 Jun 30 19:18
nicktasticOmar87: A tiling wm designed for lisp programmersJun 30 19:18
nicktasticMy favorite wmJun 30 19:18
Omar87nicktastic: Oh, ok. I see now.Jun 30 19:19
nicktasticInspired by emacs and screenJun 30 19:19
nicktasticI should also mention conkeror, the mozilla-based, programmer-oriented browser inspired by emacs and vi ;)Jun 30 19:20
Omar87Yeah but, Conkeror is not a WM, right?Jun 30 19:21
nicktasticNopeJun 30 19:21
nicktasticI just want to plug conkerorJun 30 19:21
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fewaaweesome wmJun 30 19:36
fewaonly xcb wmJun 30 19:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Firefox 3.5 at the top: #fx35Jun 30 19:37
fewatrmanco, its firefox35Jun 30 19:37
fewaactually #firefoxJun 30 19:38
twitterOmar87, I use E16 with KDE 3.5's kicker.  This is a nice combination that gives you the best of a light WM and most of what you want KDE 3.5 for.Jun 30 19:39
twitteroh, he's goneJun 30 19:40
twitterIt's like you need a distribution of them, ha ha.  -> (11:02:41 AM) schestowitz: So many plguins are incompatible nowJun 30 19:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] This is brilliant (about psychics): 30 19:42
twitterThis is why I rarely leave Debian's repositories.  Too much trouble for too little short term gain.Jun 30 19:42
twitterThe Debian community solves basic problems very quickly.Jun 30 19:42
twitterIf there's a problem, there's almost always a Debian way to solve it.Jun 30 19:43
nicktasticIndeedJun 30 19:46
nicktasticI've tried other distros lately but haven't switched because none approach perfection as nearly as Debian. ;)Jun 30 19:47
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schestowitzI'm back to 3.0 until plugins regaon compatibilityJun 30 19:52
nicktasticflash should workJun 30 19:54
nicktasticThat's about the only plugin I useJun 30 19:54
nicktasticActually the plugin API is pretty much frozen in general, so they should be compatibleJun 30 19:54
trmanco 30 19:55
schestowitzHehe.Jun 30 19:56
schestowitzFor a moment there I thought it said "Solaris"Jun 30 19:56
schestowitzWouldn't *that* be funny?Jun 30 19:56
trmanco 30 19:57
trmancoyeahJun 30 19:57
trmancoVB 3.0 is hereJun 30 19:57
schestowitzFastJun 30 19:58
nicktasticfast indeed, though kvm should be faster if your hardware supports itJun 30 19:59
nicktastichey hey, direct3d support. niceJun 30 20:01
schestowitzFor Windows users, I guess.. and gamersJun 30 20:01
nicktasticYeah, I use Windows in vbox at workJun 30 20:01
taconenow with broken directX support !Jun 30 20:09
nicktastic:PJun 30 20:09
nicktasticexperimental ;)Jun 30 20:09
taconenow with placebo directX support ;-)Jun 30 20:10
taconenot bad btwJun 30 20:10
taconeand hope it's open sourceJun 30 20:10
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fewakvm pwnsJun 30 20:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Exploits Death to Advertise Its Products 30 20:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft Product Dies: MSN Web Messenger 30 20:52
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LichHello allJun 30 21:01
LichAnyone here?Jun 30 21:04
nicktasticMaybeJun 30 21:05
schestowitzYesJun 30 21:06
LichAnyway been following this site for few months :PJun 30 21:06
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LichGoogle moto is very nice indeed: Don't be evilJun 30 21:07
LichIs it me or the Microsoft is that sort of company that if it falls it will pull others with it in ambis?Jun 30 21:08
schestowitzWhich motto?Jun 30 21:10
schestowitzHahaJun 30 21:10
schestowitzMicrosoft has a new strategyJun 30 21:10
Lichwhich one?Jun 30 21:10
schestowitzGoogle is evil, let Bing save us from that "evil"Jun 30 21:10
schestowitzThat's what the MS PR agents sayJun 30 21:11
Lichthat is opposite psychologyJun 30 21:11
Lichthat's*Jun 30 21:11
schestowitzIt would seem outragous if it were's so funnyJun 30 21:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another Microsoft Vice President Jumps Ship, Employee Benefits Take a Dive 30 21:12
schestowitz*outrageousJun 30 21:12
MinceRso suddenly they aren't "equally evil" anymore?Jun 30 21:12
Lichanyway have you heard about Mikerowesoft and Microsoft case?Jun 30 21:12
Lichan example of the moto: Money can buy allJun 30 21:13
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_Goblinbonjour, hello, good evening....Jun 30 21:15
MinceRoh haiJun 30 21:17
LichHi GoblinJun 30 21:17
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schestowitz_Goblin: vacationing in the other side of the channel?Jun 30 21:32
schestowitz_Goblin: we have a troll epidemic in BNJun 30 21:32
schestowitzAnd they don't get attention, so they start stealing people's namesJun 30 21:32
_Goblinsorry AFKJun 30 21:37
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_GoblinRoy, is someone using my name?Jun 30 21:37
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schestowitz_Goblin: no, mineJun 30 21:48
schestowitzThey try to disrupt the site. Some are the same trolls (maybe MS PR agents) from Slashdot. They bully.Jun 30 21:49
_GoblinahJun 30 21:51
_Goblinsorry to hear that...Jun 30 21:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More People Say “No” to Mono, Including the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC) < >Jun 30 21:52
_Goblinmind you it is a compliment.  It means there are no arguments left.Jun 30 21:52
_GoblinI see Lin*** are still trying to pimp their 6 member schoolboy forum....Jun 30 21:52
_GoblinI don't know what is more tragic, the fact that they can't get any members or the fact that they can't get anyone to take them seriously...Jun 30 21:53
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_GoblinRoy, Just been talking to a UK Bullying Charity.  It appears they are using Linux.  I've offered my support (for free of course) its a reg charity so obviously they are legit...A good news story that (in their words, in respect of Linux) "FOSS is at the core of our work, its how we support 500k people a year for just £50,000..."Jun 30 22:01
schestowitz_Goblin: 6 already?Jun 30 22:02
schestowitzWow. One more and they can go to paintballJun 30 22:02
_Goblin:)Jun 30 22:02
schestowitz_Goblin: does that charity talk about it in public?Jun 30 22:03
schestowitzThey'd be on Microsoft's 'hit list'Jun 30 22:03
_Goblinyep...heres the link on twitter:Jun 30 22:03
schestowitzSomeone BTW is helping me extract the text from Microsoft's OEM hit list. There is no OCR and it's a big smoking gunJun 30 22:03
_Goblin 30 22:04
_GoblinIn respect of the document Roy...looking forward to reading it!Jun 30 22:14
schestowitzProbably after my breakJun 30 22:14
schestowitzCheck out these search results: 30 22:19
schestowitzOh damn. 30 22:23
schestowitzWrong headline, hard to changeJun 30 22:23
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @glynmoody Don't Feed the Super-Troll - Intellectual VenturesJun 30 22:32
schestowitzAverage Twitter user has 126 followers, and only 20% of users go via website 30 22:33
schestowitzThe Pacific Isn't the Only Ocean Turning into a Trash Heap <'t_the_only_ocean_turning_into_a_trash_heap/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=alternet >Jun 30 22:36
schestowitzGoogle has just mailed me a voucherJun 30 22:40
schestowitzLet's see if this can be used to advertise: "Learn about how Novell harms Free Software"Jun 30 22:40
schestowitzWhat a Google scanJun 30 22:51
schestowitzThey use vouchers to get people to give them bank detailsJun 30 22:51
schestowitztrmanco: see’s Grand Plans, And Their Inevitable Clash With Digg: Bitly Now 30 22:55
trmancowowJun 30 22:57
trmancothe've started with a simple url shortenerJun 30 22:58
trmanconow they want to get into the big businessJun 30 22:58
MinceRdungg deserves to have its ass kicked anywayJun 30 22:59
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trmancodunggJun 30 23:01
trmancothat seems like a nice name for a web appJun 30 23:01
schestowitzDell Is Working On Pocket Web Gadget 30 23:05
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trmanco"Is Windows Live Mail (WLM) the worst Windows application ever?  Jeez, IJun 30 23:07
trmancothought Outlook Express and Windows Mail for Vista sucked, that was onlyJun 30 23:07
trmancothe beginning.  What an amateur chop job WLM is.  Suppose this is ourJun 30 23:07
trmancopunishment for not attacking the EU with nukes when they sued MicrosoftJun 30 23:07
trmancofor anti-trust."Jun 30 23:07
trmancowowJun 30 23:07
schestowitzChina delays internet filter plan < >Jun 30 23:12
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nicktastic"Oh shit, the west realized we ripped off a bunch of code illegally..."Jun 30 23:18
nicktasticHmm do western copyright laws apply in China?Jun 30 23:19
schestowitz Blind hacker gets 11 years Jun 30 23:19
nicktasticMy Socrates NoteJun 30 23:19
ThistleWebnicktastic: they do when trade agreements are at stake, and a condition of them is China respecting western corps IPJun 30 23:19
nicktasticExactly my question, do trade agreements require that they honor western copyrights?Jun 30 23:20
ThistleWebwell, western laws don't, but they would have to act under their own lawsJun 30 23:20
ThistleWebthey will have a hard time just brushing it offJun 30 23:20
ThistleWebwhich will no doubt be some manager wheeled out as a scapegoatJun 30 23:21
nicktasticYeah, and it is probably embarrassing to them - embarrassment seems to be more important to the Chinese government than abiding by international law.Jun 30 23:21
ThistleWebthey've hit hurdles before with international trade agreements hinging on China acting on copyright infringementJun 30 23:22
nicktasticInterestingJun 30 23:22
tacone 30 23:22
taconethe pirate bay sold.Jun 30 23:23
nicktastictacone: R.I.P. The Pirate Bay.Jun 30 23:23
nicktasticIt was fun while it lasted.Jun 30 23:23
nicktasticI'm sure they'll be back thoughJun 30 23:23
ThistleWebdvdR.I.P.Jun 30 23:23
nicktasticAs long as they don't spend the rest of their lives in prisonJun 30 23:23
nicktasticTheir press release was pathetic and naive, though. :\Jun 30 23:24
taconethey plan to put the money into a foundation for freedom of speechJun 30 23:24
taconeso i guess that will be their new workJun 30 23:24
nicktasticYeah, that's what they say.Jun 30 23:24
ThistleWebthey announced a video site recently too, ala youtubeJun 30 23:24
nicktasticForgive my incredulity ;) I've never trusted them.Jun 30 23:25
taconeof course that's not going to be charityJun 30 23:26
schestowitzOxford University Press Endorses Google Book Settlement < >Jun 30 23:30
tacone mono on planet kdeJun 30 23:31
taconestill have to readJun 30 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "A PRIVATE university lecturer from India was charged at the Sessions Court here today with taking a RM800 bribe" 30 23:32
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schestowitzFSFE does some filming? 30 23:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Blu-Ray a Failure? < > Well, it's defective by design.Jun 30 23:42
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] LinuxTag 2009: Better Bad Drivers than None < >Jun 30 23:52

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