IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 9th, 2009

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jose_XWanted to draw attention to this 09 01:27
jose_Xand this follow-up example 09 01:27
jose_Xit would be interesting to look for more parallels here 09 01:28
jose_Xwill be back later before getting offJul 09 01:29
amarsh04ok jose_XJul 09 01:40
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amarsh04are you still around jose_X ?Jul 09 02:00
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jose_Xjust got back.. but won't stay longJul 09 02:05
jose_Xamarsh04..Jul 09 02:06
neighborleehi there jose how goes itJul 09 02:12
jose_Xok, .. won't stay longJul 09 02:12
neighborleeyupJul 09 02:13
jose_XgoingJul 09 02:24
jose_XgoingJul 09 02:24
jose_XgoneJul 09 02:24
jose_X:-)Jul 09 02:24
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happy_camper 09 04:21
happy_camperSad newsJul 09 04:21
happy_camperBut BN stays standingJul 09 04:22
neighborleehappy_camper, and thats  a problem how exactly ;))lolJul 09 04:24
twitterDoes not look like the end to me ->  I will not, however, be posting new articles on the site from today and from the end of July I will disable the comments and discussion areas on the site. I have considered various options for extending Tectonic’s life without my input. Depending on resources these may or may not happen, but I am not promising.Jul 09 04:26
happy_camperYesJul 09 04:26
happy_camper 09 04:27
happy_camperIn short,Black Duck is all it seemedJul 09 04:27
happy_camperA copany made by MicrosoftguysJul 09 04:27
happy_camperNow vilifying the GPLJul 09 04:27
happy_camperAnd praising the MS 'open source' licencesJul 09 04:27
happy_camperSending the message that proprietary s/w growsJul 09 04:28
happy_camperMiguel would be proudJul 09 04:28
happy_camperMono... MIT licence... chunks of codeJul 09 04:28
happy_camper"promise not to sue" (just a promise)Jul 09 04:28
twitterno, it's a lieJul 09 04:28
happy_camperWinform now officially patent synamiteJul 09 04:29
twittera lie by misdirectionJul 09 04:29
happy_camperThe FOSS community gets poisoned from insideJul 09 04:29
twitterwe won't sue you for A, B-Z is fair game.Jul 09 04:29
happy_camper 09 04:29
twitterNo, the free software movement is doing just fine, thanks.Jul 09 04:29
happy_camperToday, the head of the Free Software Foundation, Richard M. Stallman, told iTWire: "The preliminary report is that Microsoft's 'Community Promise' is quite inadequate.Jul 09 04:30
happy_camperThe community promise extends to two sets of specifications, 334 and 335, submitted to ECMA, a standards body.  Stallman added: "The FSF will make a statement."Jul 09 04:30
happy_camperSpread the wordJul 09 04:30
happy_camperIt's rubbishJul 09 04:30
happy_camperIt's all rubbishJul 09 04:30
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twitterWell, that much was obvious.  It's nice of the FSF and RMS to step up and say so.Jul 09 04:31
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tessierschestowitz: How was your vacation?Jul 09 06:40
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blankthemuffin<happy_camper> "promise not to sue" (just a promise) << Yeah a legally binding, non-retractable promise.Jul 09 06:52
blankthemuffinYou might want to upgrade your tin hat to a 10 foot lead wall.Jul 09 06:55
BobSpritedo you think anything that they say would be considered "good enough", I dontJul 09 06:56
blankthemuffinUnless they GPL'ed all their softwareJul 09 06:58
BobSpritenot even FOSS companies GPL all their software, like IBM, redhat, or conicail.Jul 09 06:59
BobSpriteBitkeeperJul 09 06:59
blankthemuffinI don't like the GPLJul 09 06:59
blankthemuffinit's excessive. MIT boy here.Jul 09 07:00
BobSpritealot of people have issues with the GPLJul 09 07:00
MinceRa lot of people have issuesJul 09 07:00
MinceR:>Jul 09 07:00
MinceRbut of course, vague promises that some time in the future they will promise not to sue on some specific part of .net must be taken as assurance that it is perfectly safe to use the whole thing :>Jul 09 07:02
blankthemuffinI'm kinda in two minds about it.Jul 09 07:02
MinceRthey've never been straightforward about the patent issues, that alone should be alarming.Jul 09 07:03
blankthemuffinthere's nothing vague about it though MinceR, they will not sue for any patents related to the two specifications, they can't retract this agreement unless you sue them.Jul 09 07:03
MinceRthat is when they'll include it in the CPJul 09 07:03
BobSpriteits like them saying "here is C for you to use for free" and you saying "ok, but I want everything ever written in C as well".Jul 09 07:03
MinceRthe article was about that it "will" happenJul 09 07:03
blankthemuffinNo it's happened MinceRJul 09 07:03
MinceRno, it's not like thatJul 09 07:03
BobSpriteCP is quite specific and clearJul 09 07:04
blankthemuffinyes it is, their community promise page says the CP covers it, they made a press release saying that it were so.Jul 09 07:04
MinceRit's like them saying "you can use the C language" and me saying "1) great, after all those years you've had it released and 2) ok, but i want libc as well"Jul 09 07:04
MinceRwell, where's winforms and then?Jul 09 07:04
blankthemuffinASP.NET and WinForms implementations are still a bit grey, however they're being split out of the main mono implementation and are generally not used in Linux apps anyway.Jul 09 07:04
MinceR"still a bit grey" -- you've nailed the whole issue on the headJul 09 07:05
MinceRthey're keeping everyone in the darkJul 09 07:05
blankthemuffinWinforms isn't part of C#Jul 09 07:05
MinceRwow, really?Jul 09 07:05
MinceRit's part of .net thoughJul 09 07:06
blankthemuffin.NET*Jul 09 07:06
BobSpritehave you read the CP MincR, its quite clear and easy to understant, and winforms are are apps written in C#,Jul 09 07:06
MinceRand where's the rest of the class library anyway?Jul 09 07:06
blankthemuffinno it isn't, it's part of microsoft's .NET implementation.Jul 09 07:06
MinceRso how can someone make a .net implementation that's compatible with that?Jul 09 07:07
blankthemuffinI don't see the issue with winforms anyway, worst case is we have to remove it and nothing happens. Linux apps made with mono don't use WinForms.Jul 09 07:07
BobSpriteexactlyJul 09 07:07
MinceReven if we _assume_ that they _will_ include those patents they've mentioned in the CPJul 09 07:07
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blankthemuffin:facepalm:Jul 09 07:07
BobSpritejust like code in C that breaks patents or copyright or has issues, you replace it.Jul 09 07:07
MinceRwindows apps made for .net can't be run with mono (or mono extended with wine) without it.Jul 09 07:07
MinceRwell, yesJul 09 07:08
blankthemuffinIt's very explicit about what it covers. The two specifications. There is no ambiguity.Jul 09 07:08
MinceRmono/.net breaks patents therefore i replace itJul 09 07:08
MinceRyes, and it's very explicit about not covering the entirety of .netJul 09 07:08
MinceRat least if you take the pink-tinted sunglasses offJul 09 07:08
BobSpriteI dont see issues or ambugity either, and its obvious you can write patent violating code using any language.Jul 09 07:09
blankthemuffinMinceR, sure but that's got nothing to do with the normal issues people have with mono. Winforms is certainly not going to be part of the core mono implementation, nor will it have any applications depend on it.Jul 09 07:09
BobSpriteand you dont need forms, or .NET to use C#Jul 09 07:09
MinceRBobSprite: the issue is that the standard library violates patents.Jul 09 07:09
blankthemuffinNo it doesn't MinceR, the standard library is one of those standards the CP covers.Jul 09 07:09
MinceRi know someone who used to use ASP.NET on mono on linuxJul 09 07:09
BobSpriteso , rewrite the parts of the standard library that are at issue,Jul 09 07:09
blankthemuffinThere are two, the C# language, and the runtime/libraries.Jul 09 07:10
MinceR(he moved or is moving away from it because of technical issues)Jul 09 07:10
MinceRBobSprite: how do you rewrite an implementation of an idea if the idea itself is patented?Jul 09 07:10
blankthemuffinYou do it differently, see the marching cubes issues.Jul 09 07:11
MinceRstill, it's moot to discuss that news item until they really include those things in the CP, as opposed to claiming that it will happen at some random time in the futureJul 09 07:11
MinceRuntil then it's just noiseJul 09 07:11
blankthemuffinYou don't understand MinceR, THEY ARE BOTH UNDER THE CPJul 09 07:11
MinceRare?Jul 09 07:11
MinceRlink please.Jul 09 07:11
BobSpritethe idea it self is the end result, but your issue is only with Windows, if you dont develop for windows whats the problem ?Jul 09 07:11
blankthemuffin 09 07:12
blankthemuffinC# Language Specification - Ecma-334, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23270:2006Jul 09 07:12
blankthemuffinCommon Language Infrastructure (CLI) - Ecma-335, 4th Edition and ISO/IEC 23271:2006Jul 09 07:12
blankthemuffinThe CLI is the standard library and runtimes. The Language is the language. There is no ambiguity, there is no issue.Jul 09 07:13
MinceRthere's something fishy about that, considering that page says it was last updated on February 12, 2009Jul 09 07:13
blankthemuffinchrist how do you move around with such a heavy lead hat?Jul 09 07:14
MinceRhow do you move around without a brain?Jul 09 07:14
MinceRand by the way my name isn't christJul 09 07:15
blankthemuffinIt wasn't there when they made the press announcement, it was there a day or two after.Jul 09 07:15
BobSpriteyes, i dont see anyone removing C because TOMTOM had an issue with FATJul 09 07:15
MinceRFAT isn't part of C nor is it part of libcJul 09 07:15
MinceRnor is it part of any C implementationJul 09 07:15
BobSpriteMincR have you removed FAT and NTFS from your linux boxes ?Jul 09 07:15
blankthemuffinWinForms isn't a part of C#, nor is it a part of the CLIJul 09 07:15
MinceRnopeJul 09 07:15
MinceRi'll wait until they sue me :>Jul 09 07:15
MinceRuntil then i won't rely on eitherJul 09 07:16
MinceR(at least to the extent that is possible)Jul 09 07:16
BobSpriteits still patent breaking, but for some reason thats ok, and mono is not !!Jul 09 07:16
blankthemuffinnor is it a part of any CLI implementation, it's just bundled with microsoft .NETJul 09 07:16
MinceRthen again, afaik there's prior art on the FAT patents anywayJul 09 07:16
blankthemuffinThere's prior art on mono too, java.Jul 09 07:16
MinceRBobSprite: the difference is what happens if the projects we rely on are destroyed via a lawsuitJul 09 07:16
BobSpriteNo its a part of the GPL'd Linux kernel !!Jul 09 07:16
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MinceRjava and mono aren't the same thing.Jul 09 07:17
blankthemuffinWow you think MinceR? I thought they were exactly the same. If you know both of these environments you'd know that they are very similar. A lot of people consider .NET to simply be a way for microsoft to get around issues with making their own java ( remember when sun sued them? ).Jul 09 07:18
MinceRit isJul 09 07:18
MinceRyet it's been redesigned to some extentJul 09 07:18
MinceRand i think it's unwise to alter the linux desktop to rely on it to a large degree.Jul 09 07:19
MinceRbecause it will be costly to fix if it turns out to be necessary (because of a lawsuit, for instance)Jul 09 07:19
MinceRredesigning means it does some parts differently and as a result may rely on different patentsJul 09 07:20
MinceRthe status of which is unclearJul 09 07:20
MinceRand m$ has done very little to clear up the issueJul 09 07:20
BobSpriteYou think MS will sue individuals ?Jul 09 07:20
MinceRi don't know who they'll sueJul 09 07:20
BobSpriteI know who they wont sue,Jul 09 07:21
MinceRboth m$ and novell were both deliberately unclear about the patent issue, this means they're likely planning to do something evil.Jul 09 07:21
MinceRBobSprite: their own customers?Jul 09 07:21
BobSpriteyou have read teh CP right, and the Q and A at the end ?Jul 09 07:22
MinceRthe Q and A isn't legally bindingJul 09 07:22
MinceRi haven't read itJul 09 07:22
MinceRi've read a part of it to see what it isJul 09 07:23
MinceR(an "irrevocable promise not to sue", iirc)Jul 09 07:23
BobSpriteperhaps you should, its better than speculation, its quite clear and conciseJul 09 07:23
MinceR(i wonder why a "patent license" isn't cool enough for m$)Jul 09 07:23
MinceRif you want to see speculation, you should have seen how the mono page explained the patent issue :>Jul 09 07:24
BobSpriteit seems that FOSS is happy to use technologies if they do not have permission to do so (like FAT) but when MS give their permission they get confused by the gesture,Jul 09 07:24
MinceR(perhaps they've fixed it now -- it was a link to an email that was supposed to prove something)Jul 09 07:24
MinceRthat's because m$ gave permission late and in very likely an incomplete formJul 09 07:24
MinceR(that is, some parts of .net aren't covered)Jul 09 07:25
BobSpritebut yet its ok to use things of theirs without any permissions and regardless of patents.Jul 09 07:25
BobSpritei find that a bit hypocriticalJul 09 07:25
blankthemuffinSo how is it not prior art. Unless my legalese escapes me, prior art does not mean 'a carbon copy of'.Jul 09 07:26
blankthemuffinit is a patent licence MinceRJul 09 07:26
blankthemuffinYes, the CP is legally binding upon Microsoft. The CP is a unilateral promise from Microsoft and in these circumstances unilateral promises may be enforced against the party making such a promise. Because the CP states that the promise is irrevocable, it may not be withdrawn by Microsoft. The CP is, and will be, available to everyone now and in the future for the specifications to which itJul 09 07:26
blankthemuffinapplies. As stated in the CP, the only time Microsoft can withdraw its promise against a specific person or company for a specific Covered Specification is if that person or company brings (or voluntarily participates in) a patent infringement lawsuit against Microsoft regarding Microsoft’s implementation of the same Covered Specification. This type of “suspension” clause is common inJul 09 07:26
blankthemuffindustry practice.Jul 09 07:27
blankthemuffinwow that was more than I expectedJul 09 07:27
blankthemuffinsorry about thatJul 09 07:27
blankthemuffinMicrosoft were always going to do this, since they first released .NET it was their plan.Jul 09 07:27
MinceRso you can't understand the difference between relying on FAT patents of unknown state (probably with prior art and/or being an obvious patent) to access filesystems _we already had to begin with_ and relying on .net/mono patents to develop _wholly new applications_?Jul 09 07:27
BobSpriteit could not be more clear and easy to understandJul 09 07:28
blankthemuffinDo you use microsoft products MinceR?Jul 09 07:28
MinceRactually it could be more clearJul 09 07:28
MinceRblankthemuffin: sadly, i doJul 09 07:28
BobSpriteFOSS did not have FAT to begin with, FOSS did not invent FAT, FAT was popular because of MS and FOSS used it for that very reasonJul 09 07:28
MinceRnopeJul 09 07:29
MinceRFAT was popular because m$ took over the desktop PC market and used it exclusively for a long timeJul 09 07:29
MinceRbtw, not the entirety of the FAT implementation is problematic, only the _creation_ of LFN-s, iircJul 09 07:29
BobSpriteand MS owns the patent for it as well, it was and is popular, thats why Linux and TOMTOM used itJul 09 07:29
MinceRwhich i doubt i rely onJul 09 07:30
blankthemuffinYou don't see the difference between knowingly infringing ambiguous unknown patents and having a patent covenant granted which explicitly defines what is covered.Jul 09 07:30
MinceRblankthemuffin: and we already know it leaves out some partsJul 09 07:30
MinceRthat's part of what makes it so suspicious.Jul 09 07:30
blankthemuffinOr you see a difference, but somehow you see the latter as more scary.Jul 09 07:30
blankthemuffinOf course we do, otherwise they would have revoked patent rights for all of their patents.Jul 09 07:31
blankthemuffinThose bastards, they want people to use their language! I bet they're really trying to destroy linux.Jul 09 07:31
BobSpriteim sure MS's attitude is about this "we've given it to you, we've made a clear statement about its fair use, if you dont like it fine, dont use it, there are planty that do use it, "Jul 09 07:32
MinceRthat's fine, until they don't try to push it into the distro i'm usingJul 09 07:32
MinceRs/don't//Jul 09 07:33
BobSpriteBy the way the IT industry is very cut throat if you dont have C# and .NET experience your behind the 8 ball big timeJul 09 07:33
blankthemuffinWhat, microsoft have nothing to do with your distro.Jul 09 07:33
MinceRwell, excuse me for not trusting m$ blindly after their history.Jul 09 07:33
blankthemuffinI'm not trusting ms blindly. Anybody who thinks that MS are not going to gain from this are idiots.Jul 09 07:33
BobSpriteIBM have a much longer anti-trust history, you trust them now dont you ?Jul 09 07:33
MinceRi trust them more, yesJul 09 07:34
MinceRbut not entirely.Jul 09 07:34
MinceRstill, it's m$ that's trying to destroy the OS i'm usingJul 09 07:34
BobSpritethey been in courts for anti-trust from the 40's and 50'sJul 09 07:34
MinceRm$ has been in courts for that tooJul 09 07:34
MinceRand they've escaped practically unscathedJul 09 07:34
MinceRthey were punished inadequatelyJul 09 07:35
blankthemuffinBut that's not the point at all. MS are going to gain from this, but not by destroying linux. They're going to gain when more people use .NET for cross-platform development. Not to mention the large good-will created by something like this.Jul 09 07:35
BobSpritewhat by releasing tools to help you be productive and assisting with the creation of more GPL'd code they are trying to destroy your OS,,, i dont think so.Jul 09 07:35
BobSpriteI think that is FUD,Jul 09 07:35
MinceRm$'s idea of "cross platform development" is start on any platform, then finish on windowsJul 09 07:35
blankthemuffinCalling it 'M$' is incredibly childish anyway. It's just a company.Jul 09 07:36
MinceRBobSprite: remember "Linux is a cancer"? i do.Jul 09 07:36
blankthemuffinSure it is MinceR.Jul 09 07:36
BobSpritehow long ago was that statement made MinceR ?Jul 09 07:36
MinceRit's just a company that did everything it could to destroy all opposition in the field of IT and ended up almost destroying the industry.Jul 09 07:36
MinceRBobSprite: does it matter? do we forget so easily?Jul 09 07:36
blankthemuffinBut M$ still need better products to make that a reality. Linux needs better products to make the opposite a reality. The platform is irreverent.Jul 09 07:36
BobSpritethats your opinion, but most see the "industry" as strong and healthy.Jul 09 07:37
MinceRmost on the payroll of m$, that isJul 09 07:37
blankthemuffinI suppose google is evil alsoJul 09 07:37
MinceRwhat has that have to do with this?Jul 09 07:37
blankthemuffinand pretty much every other company on the face of the earth, because they're not out doing everything for you for nothing.Jul 09 07:37
MinceRfew come close to m$Jul 09 07:37
MinceRagain, study their historyJul 09 07:37
MinceRand the internal mail that was leaked/revealed.Jul 09 07:38
blankthemuffinPlease MinceR, enlighten me to specific events.Jul 09 07:38
BobSpriteno not like Madoff, enron, union carbide and so on.Jul 09 07:38
MinceRi have a better idea. i go to work and you search the web.Jul 09 07:38
blankthemuffinYou're being awfully ambiguous with your statements.Jul 09 07:38
MinceRBobSprite: i don't rely on patents owned by madoff, enron or union carbide.Jul 09 07:38
blankthemuffinSo it's my problem your argument is flawed? Right o.Jul 09 07:38
blankthemuffinMinceR, Microsoft have patents which cover parts of ip, I don't see you boycotting that.Jul 09 07:39
BobSpriteyou do rely on patents from MS even though you are not legally using them, you are benifitting from themJul 09 07:39
MinceRi've paid them more than they deserve already.Jul 09 07:39
MinceRand they've done a lot more damage than thatJul 09 07:40
blankthemuffinDo you see microsoft as a single entity, where everybody is bad?Jul 09 07:40
MinceRdestroying companies they couldn't compete on grounds of merit, for exampleJul 09 07:40
BobSpriteso that gives you the right to break the law, ok fair enough its an indication of your morals.Jul 09 07:40
MinceRblankthemuffin: why does it matter, if their leadership keeps the company in hand and they're evil?Jul 09 07:40
MinceRBobSprite: try making sense next time.Jul 09 07:40
MinceRbblJul 09 07:40
BobSpritename a company that was the subject of a hostile takeover from MS, or in other words name a company that did not say YES when asked to be bought by MSJul 09 07:41
blankthemuffinThe bottom line is, have your opinion about microsoft. It doesn't matter. It's got nothing to do with mono, and it's certainly got nothing to do with applications developed with mono. Mono shouldn't be included in distros by default. It's worthless to users. However applications should not be excluded on the basis of unconditional fear.Jul 09 07:44
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BobSpritethe mono thing is just seen as an excuse to help focus hate on MS, would it matter what MS did or said ? I doubt it.Jul 09 07:56
BobSpriteyou boycott Novell, and I guess that is fair enough, but you are quite happy with IBM and was IBM that made MS the giant it is today.  but for some reason they are ok, and novell is not.Jul 09 08:00
BobSpriteYou should really hate IBM, but you dont ???!!! go figure !Jul 09 08:01
BobSpriteGoogle are releasing their own Linux Distro, its called Chrome.Jul 09 08:04
blankthemuffinGoogle are the worst, they're out to steal all my dataJul 09 08:06
BobSprite 09 08:08
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trmanco 09 08:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @sagarun: RT: @scorpfromhell: RT @SwaroopH: RT @brainstuck: MS XP pro EULA contains only ONE word - | LOL!Jul 09 08:28
desui lol'dJul 09 08:31
BobSpritebut what a good word it is !!Jul 09 08:34
BobSpritemabey its some kind of TEST ???Jul 09 08:34
MinceRbtw, the tomtom issue reflects pretty well that m$'s attitude towards Linux hasn't changed since they called it a "cancer"Jul 09 09:13
MinceRBobSprite: regarding the EULA thing, get a sense a of humor.Jul 09 09:13
MinceRas for IBM, it's their management mistakes and incompetence that allowed m$ make itself into what it isJul 09 09:14
MinceR091455 < BobSprite> the mono thing is just seen as an excuse to help focus hate on MS, would it matter what MS did or said ? I doubt it.Jul 09 09:14
MinceRnope. mono is being pushed into gnu/linux despite the fact that it's never been shown to be safe -- for all we know it's a patent trap.Jul 09 09:14
MinceRtheir latest step with the CP might be a good step to fix that.Jul 09 09:15
MinceRbut i'm waiting for independent reports/opinions/analysis on it.Jul 09 09:15
BobSpritebut its clear it's not more a patent trap then the linux kernel is, and its perfectly within MS or IBM or anyones rights to enforce the existing laws, infact I believe they are required to do so, just like Linus Torvalds has to enforce tradement on the Linux nameJul 09 09:21
desulolJul 09 09:22
MinceRthe linux kernel wasn't developed by a hostile external entity and it wasn't designed on the patents of such an entityJul 09 09:22
desuyou don't know much about either, do you?Jul 09 09:22
BobSpritebut all the same, neither was Mono, but they seem both to have issues, but you are selective of one, but you let the other pass, thats a clear bias.Jul 09 09:23
Ngbe that as it may, it's entirely likely that linux infringes on various patents in some juristictions, simply from its sizeJul 09 09:23
Ngafaict basically any large bit of software probably doesJul 09 09:23
MinceRBobSprite: no, you are merely incapable of understanding the difference between the two case. that isn't my problem.Jul 09 09:23
BobSpriteSo its not the law or morals you are trying to uphold, just your belief system and personal biasesJul 09 09:23
MinceRno, i'm trying to maintain a system that can be maintained legally and prosperJul 09 09:24
BobSpriteand yet, even though it might breach patents you still happily use it.Jul 09 09:24
blankthemuffinMinceR, the linux kernel also wasn't standardised by EMCA, and it also doesn't have a patent covenant from microsoft.Jul 09 09:24
BobSpritewell then strip out all the C code because you can break patents with C,Jul 09 09:24
MinceRblankthemuffin: Ecma standardizes whatever is submitted to them accompanied by a bundle of cash.Jul 09 09:25
MinceRblankthemuffin: and m$ doesn't demonstrably own patents on linux.Jul 09 09:25
MinceRblankthemuffin: the tomtom case was settled.Jul 09 09:25
BobSpriteIt's clear the linux kernel has patent issues, yet you happily use it, but you refuse to use something that has less issues because of the source of it,Jul 09 09:25
MinceRBobSprite: read what i've said about C, i'm not going to repeat myself.Jul 09 09:25
MinceRBobSprite: prove that the linux kernel has patent issues.Jul 09 09:26
blankthemuffinMinceR, prove to me that mono has patent issues.Jul 09 09:26
blankthemuffinOh wait that's impossible.Jul 09 09:26
BobSpriteIt has FAT, it has known patent issues, why are they trying so hard to modify the FAT to make it compliant ?Jul 09 09:26
blankthemuffinAnd it's also impossible to prove otherwise.Jul 09 09:26
MinceRblankthemuffin: it has been done by others already. that's what this channel is all about.Jul 09 09:26
MinceRBobSprite: read up on the FAT issue. also read what i've said about it already.Jul 09 09:27
blankthemuffinNo it hasn't MinceR, I have not seen a single reference to a patent from this channel, nor boycott novell in general.Jul 09 09:27
MinceRblankthemuffin: there's also a website, you might be interested in it.Jul 09 09:27
BobSpriteyou can say what you like, the FAT issue is real, and its not gone away,Jul 09 09:27
blankthemuffinhence the 'in general'Jul 09 09:27
MinceRblankthemuffin: 09 09:27
blankthemuffinMinceR, yes I'm well aware of the website.Jul 09 09:28
MinceRblankthemuffin: then stop acting like you aren't.Jul 09 09:28
blankthemuffin<blankthemuffin> No it hasn't MinceR, I have not seen a single reference to a patent from this channel, nor boycott novell in general.Jul 09 09:28
BobSpritedoes it mean we have to leave facts at the door when we come here ?Jul 09 09:29
MinceRBobSprite: you already have.Jul 09 09:29
MinceRtoo late to ask.Jul 09 09:29
BobSpritelike what ?Jul 09 09:29
blankthemuffinIt's funny how we left facts at the door and you don't seem to know anything beyond it's obvious go google it.Jul 09 09:31
MinceRyou're obviously trying to waste my time by trolling. go away.Jul 09 09:31
BobSpritethats usually the call made when all logic and arguments are exhausted :)Jul 09 09:32
blankthemuffinYes, I'm wasting my time wasting your time because your time is way more worthwhile than mine. It's obvious.Jul 09 09:33
blankthemuffinNice subtle I'm better than you remark by the wayJul 09 09:34
BobSpritewho ?Jul 09 09:34
blankthemuffin<MinceR> you're obviously trying to waste my time by trolling. go away. Implying his time is more worthwhile than my own.Jul 09 09:35
Ngdo microsoft have patents on their file sharing and directory technologies? I think it's odd that mono is singled out for so much attention when everyone has been shipping samba by default for yearsJul 09 09:35
BobSpriteoh yea, ok, I just read it as he's ran out of good argumentsJul 09 09:35
BobSpritethey singled mono out, because they need something against MS to bash, and Vista seems successful now so they have to bash something.Jul 09 09:36
desusamba is requiredJul 09 09:36
desumono is notJul 09 09:37
Ngthat's entirely usecase dependentJul 09 09:37
desumono is just being pushed when there are better alternatives availableJul 09 09:37
blankthemuffinSamba isn't required. I don't use it. However I do use Mono. As Ng says, it's context dependent and any assertions otherwise are naive.Jul 09 09:37
Ngdesu: the relative qualities are your subjective opinionJul 09 09:38
blankthemuffindesu, as a programmer, I don't think there are better alternatives. And since I'm doing the programming I believe that's my freedom to choose. Not to mention the choice of platform, like your previous argument, is incredibly context sensitive and once again, any assertions otherwise are naive.Jul 09 09:39
desui believe i speak for 90% of the desktop users when i say that most users would rather have samba by default than monoJul 09 09:39
BobSpritei use mono far more than sambaJul 09 09:39
mitsuhikodittoJul 09 09:39
Ngdesu: citation needed, that's an extraordinary assumption to makeJul 09 09:39
desuNg: an average desktop user is not a programmerJul 09 09:39
BobSpriteI have not used samba for over 10 years, and do i miss it,, not for a second.Jul 09 09:39
blankthemuffinI believe 99.99% of all statistics are made up on the spot in order to help sustain an entirely flawed argument.Jul 09 09:39
desuhe most likely does, however, have windows machiensJul 09 09:40
Ngdesu: irrelevant, mono is a runtime for applications, it's quite likely that the vast majority of its users are not programmersJul 09 09:40
desublankthemuffin: and you made that statistic upJul 09 09:40
blankthemuffinThe average desktop user does not need to know what mono is desu. It's not their problem.Jul 09 09:40
desuNg: and there are better alternatives available for those appsJul 09 09:40
MinceR105423 < BobSprite> oh yea, ok, I just read it as he's ran out of good argumentsJul 09 09:40
Ngdesu: again, that's your subjective opinionJul 09 09:40
MinceRwhy look for new arguments if you won't even consider the old ones?Jul 09 09:40
MinceR105515 < BobSprite> they singled mono out, because they need something against MS to bash, and Vista seems successful now so they have to bash something.Jul 09 09:40
MinceRi lol'dJul 09 09:40
desublankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller.Jul 09 09:40
blankthemuffindesu, please provide a case for that.Jul 09 09:41
desuit's kinda stupid how the mono guys want gimp out when it takes only 26MB but are still pushing for LOL40MB omonoJul 09 09:41
Ngwhich of the mono guys want gimp out?Jul 09 09:41
desublankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives availableJul 09 09:41
Ngafaik, the person who suggested that was Rick Spencer, Canonical's desktop team manager, who is nothing to do with monoJul 09 09:42
blankthemuffindesu, name them please.Jul 09 09:42
desuNg: ubuntuJul 09 09:42
Ngdesu: oh so "mono guys" means anyone who ships mono, not the people who make it?Jul 09 09:42
Ngstill, it was one person's *suggestion*Jul 09 09:42
desurick spencer has worked for microsoft, as some reports have revealedJul 09 09:42
Ngthat's not a secret :)Jul 09 09:43
BobSpriteyes, so what.Jul 09 09:43
blankthemuffinAh so he's a double agent, in linux just to destroy it from the inside.Jul 09 09:43
NgI know rick, he's a nice guy who is very passionate about his job at canonicalJul 09 09:43
desuthe very fact that mono is being pushed like a mofo shows that microsoft is hard at workJul 09 09:43
Ngdesu: mono is not being pushed, compelling applications areJul 09 09:44
blankthemuffinWhere is it being pushed 'like a mofo'Jul 09 09:44
BobSpriteor thats its good and has been very very popular in MS circles for years.Jul 09 09:44
desuthose "compelling applications" are slow hogs, and there are better alternatives available.Jul 09 09:44
blankthemuffinno that's silly Ng, he's obviously been sent to Canonical by MS so microsoft can destroy linux from the inside.Jul 09 09:44
blankthemuffinPlease desu, I'm waiting for statistics to back up your claims.Jul 09 09:44
desublankthemuffin: statistics for what?Jul 09 09:45
BobSpriteDont hold your breathJul 09 09:45
Ngdesu: I found banshee to be typically more responsive than rhythmbox, especially when dealing with portable music players, so my subjective experience/opinion differs from yours :)Jul 09 09:45
blankthemuffinall these things you are claiming. <desu> i believe i speak for 90% of the desktop users when i say that most users would rather have samba by default than mono <desu> blankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller. <desu> blankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives available <desu> the very fact that mono is being pushedJul 09 09:45
blankthemuffin like a mofo shows that microsoft is hard at workJul 09 09:45
trmanco 09 09:45
blankthemuffin<desu> those "compelling applications" are slow hogs, and there are better alternatives available.Jul 09 09:45
blankthemuffinall these things could do with some actual facts to back them up, but hey, what would I know.Jul 09 09:45
BobSprite90% of desktop users, are windows users, and they dont know or care about samba or mono, or vista, or XP or Win7, and would not know a Linux if they were hit over the head with a CDJul 09 09:46
desublankthemuffin: there are several articles on boycottnovell's website... go read them if you need any facts...Jul 09 09:46
blankthemuffinPlease desu, link me to these.Jul 09 09:47
desu90% of the desktop users will, however, want something faster...Jul 09 09:47
blankthemuffindesu, I'm not here to present your argument for you.Jul 09 09:47
desublankthemuffin: 09 09:47
blankthemuffinYou know, mono being 'pushed like a mofo' could possibly just mean that it's good.Jul 09 09:47
NgI suggest you say "I think a lot" instead of "90%", since that's what you really meanJul 09 09:47
desuand i'm not here to do your homeworkJul 09 09:47
BobSpritewell they dont actually, they are generally very happy with what they have, and they dont even know what it is generally.Jul 09 09:47
BobSpritewhat would they use Samba for ?Jul 09 09:48
blankthemuffindesu, I've done my homework. I'm knowledgeable in various aspects of mono and .net, but it seems you're much more versed in the statistics than me and I'd like you to help me out with some concrete numbers.Jul 09 09:48
desuBobSprite: if they want to link with windows machines, they have to use samba. on the other hand, there are alternatives to what mono applications are thereJul 09 09:49
blankthemuffinI'm especially having trouble with "<desu> blankthemuffin: almost every mono app has better alternatives available" please, case studies would be nice.Jul 09 09:49
blankthemuffinthis also "<desu> blankthemuffin: it is his problem, however, if it's taking up valuiable space on the live CD and can be replaceeed by something faster and smaller."Jul 09 09:50
desublankthemuffin: yes, i'm looking for that page...Jul 09 09:50
BobSpriteI know what samba is, but you dont need it if you dont use Linux, windows talks to windows no problems, and you can and most do use windows servers in business, no samba in sightJul 09 09:50
desui had seen that page somehwreJul 09 09:50
blankthemuffinit's ok desu, I'll wait.Jul 09 09:50
BobSpriteMost file serves and back office systems are Windows based.Jul 09 09:50
MinceRyou can use windows servers in business and it is it's own punishment. :>Jul 09 09:50
MinceRs/'//Jul 09 09:50
BobSpriteI know you can, and most people do, and very happily and successfuly tooJul 09 09:51 09 09:52
MinceRtrmanco: niceJul 09 09:52
trmanco:>Jul 09 09:52
blankthemuffinOH I see, this has nothing to do with Mono after allJul 09 09:54
blankthemuffinit's all just about their licences.Jul 09 09:54
blankthemuffinMonsoon and monotorrent use the MIT/X11 licence. It's not good for GNU/Linux to promote permissive licences; instead use GNU GPLv3 or copyleft licenses. And MIT/X11 is not good for protecting projects against software patents.Jul 09 09:54
blankthemuffinIt's good to see the authors understand these things.Jul 09 09:54
blankthemuffinCriticism: Although it is a good player with a bad interface, it is sponsored by Novell and because this Banshee uses a very permissive licence -- not sufficient to protect multimedia contents and not good to protect the project against patents.Jul 09 09:54
MinceRpart of the criticism is that they all rely on mono, obviouslyJul 09 09:55
blankthemuffinObviously, but it seems most of the criticisms are about external issues.Jul 09 09:55
desuthat seems to be your personal interpretationJul 09 09:56
blankthemuffinGtk-sharp has a lot of packages, while other bindings have nothing. This causes API Domination controlled mainly by an abusive monopolist, Microsoft.  << Oh ok.Jul 09 09:56
blankthemuffinI don't see how licensing issues have anything to do with mono. Do you desu?Jul 09 09:56
desuthey don't.Jul 09 09:57
desubut you're missing the larger picture hereJul 09 09:57
MinceRthey probably have something to do with the apps listed.Jul 09 09:57
blankthemuffinthen why are they there?Jul 09 09:57
MinceRthat seems to be the reason they're listed beside the appsJul 09 09:57
*desu facepalm.jpgJul 09 09:57
MinceRpresumably to provide more arguments for avoiding those particular apps, besides their dependency on monoJul 09 09:57
MinceRthis isn't rocket surgery!Jul 09 09:57
desui give up, please go back to using mono, it'd be better for all of us here...Jul 09 09:57
blankthemuffinI'm not going back to using it. I never left.Jul 09 09:58
desuso please stay thereJul 09 09:58
desuand stop trollingJul 09 09:58
MinceRperhaps nobody talks to him there.Jul 09 09:58
blankthemuffinplease start making arguments instead of baseless attacks.Jul 09 09:58
MinceRafter you.Jul 09 09:59
MinceR:>Jul 09 09:59
desu<blankthemuffin> then why are they there? <-- i think i don't need to say anything after this.Jul 09 09:59
BobSpriteis that the standard line when you run out of argument, you accuse them of trolling ? it's amusing. its not Brain Science after all :DJul 09 09:59
blankthemuffinUnfortunately this just detracts from the anti-mono arguments. Instead of focusing on things that matter like potential patents being infringed, or binary size, or dependency size, or speed issues, or memory usage, or, or, or. It seems the only 'criticisms' are related to mono being from microsoft, and them being released under a permissive licence.Jul 09 09:59
desuit is not about the permissive license.Jul 09 10:00
desubutthen again, i doubt you'll get it now, after i've been saying that thing over and overJul 09 10:00
trmanco<Killerbean> beware of the underwater baseJul 09 10:00
trmanco<mortiis> your mom's sonar?Jul 09 10:00
trmanco<Killerbean> que?Jul 09 10:00
trmanco<mortiis> battle ship as she isJul 09 10:00
trmanco<mortiis> :)Jul 09 10:00
trmanco<Killerbean> how did you know that?Jul 09 10:00
trmanco<Killerbean> :oJul 09 10:00
trmanco<mortiis> google earthJul 09 10:00
blankthemuffinthen why is that data there? it's irrelevant. It makes the authors look like cranks. All I see is a list of applications, not how they differ, not why the mono alternatives are worse.Jul 09 10:01
blankthemuffinbetter*Jul 09 10:01
MinceRtrmanco: lolJul 09 10:02
MinceRblankthemuffin: perhaps we should make a simpler list for dummies like you? :>Jul 09 10:03
blankthemuffinNo, not at all. I'm not looking for a simpler list. I'm looking for a list with some information.Jul 09 10:03
Ngthe patent protection of licences mentioned in that page is a bit misleading I thinkJul 09 10:03
MinceRthen you've already found what you're looking for.Jul 09 10:03
blankthemuffinNo I havn't. Why is Banshee worse than Rythmbox?Jul 09 10:04
NgGPL doesn't inherently guarantee you patent protection unless the copyright holder has done due diligence, and my suspicion is that a lot of open source developers don't have the time or resources for thatJul 09 10:04
MinceRi don't use either but i've heard bansee was slower. didn't confirm it though.Jul 09 10:04
blankthemuffinthe GPL is invalidated by any patent claims if I remember correctly.Jul 09 10:04
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blankthemuffinMinceR, then why is this not investigated and put on that page.Jul 09 10:05
MinceRdunnoJul 09 10:05
MinceRit's probably a work in progressJul 09 10:05
MinceRi haven't edited that wiki yet.Jul 09 10:05
_Goblinhi allJul 09 10:06
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] FFII France interview about software patents (video and audio) need to hammer the UPLS message it seemsJul 09 11:08
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dell have *literally* put a warranty timer in their batteries: please forward aroundJul 09 11:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] oh,t hat's from 2004, but it's still happening in 2009.Jul 09 11:43
_Goblingood morning all.Jul 09 11:52
desug'evening, _GoblinJul 09 11:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the #4 website in the world has "cunt" prominently on the front page. 09 11:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] - Wolvix 2.0.0 Beta 2 in action on my rig. A great distro, expect a review shortly.Jul 09 12:08
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Everyone must go to and report Wikipedia *immediately*.Jul 09 12:28
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Nghow come I haven't seen anyone advocating replacing Mono with Portable.NET?Jul 09 12:57
oiaohmPortable .Net is not a 100 percent independant project to Mono.Jul 09 12:58
oiaohmThey share a few parts  Ng.  Also Portable .Net if there is patent issues in the classes or standard still would not be free of them.Jul 09 12:59
oiaohmBasically we would be happier if the full status was known from MS point of view.Jul 09 12:59
_Hicham_Mr oiaohm : howdy?Jul 09 13:00
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Jul 09 13:01
_Hicham_oiaohm : what do u think of the last MS promise ,Jul 09 13:01
_Hicham_?Jul 09 13:01
oiaohmBasically uselessJul 09 13:01
oiaohmCovers the core engine of .net.   Does not cover the dll that make up the .net framework.Jul 09 13:02
oiaohmIt is a step in the right direction.   Just not a big enough one.Jul 09 13:02
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oiaohm  Now mono lead developer is doing the correct thing as well.Jul 09 13:06
oiaohmMono will become two parts.  One legal to use one questionable.Jul 09 13:06
oiaohmMost likely we will see the same split n Portable .netJul 09 13:07
BobSpritePeople will use it to "scratch an itch" and to keep up with the IT industry, if your an IT worker you will have a dickens trying to get work without c# and .NET experienceJul 09 13:11
oiaohmLOLJul 09 13:12
MinceRfunny how this entire .net thing was originally supposed to be portable like java and turned out not to beJul 09 13:12
oiaohmTurns out I got work ahead of people with C# and .NEt experience.Jul 09 13:12
BobSpriteyes, but not to be nasty and im not putting together PC boxes is the very lowest end of the IT industry.Jul 09 13:13
oiaohmMaybe mono will now start going down the path of cross platform with all the class groups that they will hae to avoid.Jul 09 13:13
oiaohmNeither am I BobSpriteJul 09 13:14
MinceRmono will, but i doubt .net willJul 09 13:14
oiaohmI take care of Linux and Solarias systems.Jul 09 13:14
MinceRso the apps that were originally targeted at windows will be locked to itJul 09 13:14
oiaohmI have system to system intergration skills.   Those are more important than .netJul 09 13:14
Ngisn't the existence of mono a kind of proof that .net is about as portable as Java?Jul 09 13:15
MinceR:)Jul 09 13:15
BobSpriteall or any sys admin will be fine with windows, linux, unix and probably a number of other OS's and many applications.Jul 09 13:15
MinceRNg: well, afaik linux mono apps don't use Windows.Forms so in the end there's no platform-independent gui -- at least not one that people actually useJul 09 13:15
oiaohmJava is a highly important language to know when dealing with some of the other solutions.Jul 09 13:16
MinceRjava pulled this part off correctly, too bad their gui toolkits suckJul 09 13:16
BobSpritehaving C# experience is not necessarily what is needed to build boxes, or do the basic things, or to maintain and sys-adminJul 09 13:16
oiaohmC# experience is useless if the software you are working with is java.Jul 09 13:16
oiaohmFrom orcale.Jul 09 13:16
MinceRNg: i suspect other parts might be similarly affectedJul 09 13:17
BobSpriteThats right, the .NET and winforms are simply a set of functions build with and ontop of C#,Jul 09 13:17
oiaohmC# is only useful to some people not all.Jul 09 13:17
MinceRnot simply -- they're what standard libraries would be to most languagesJul 09 13:17
oiaohmI fall in the the class were its basically useless.Jul 09 13:17
oiaohmHas no place in the kind of work I do.Jul 09 13:18
BobSpriteoiaohm, you think :) I would never have guessedJul 09 13:18
MinceR(well, those that implement gui toolkits in their standard libraries, such as java)Jul 09 13:18
oiaohmBesides for client side with web based able to do more importance of .net for client side interfaces will reduce.Jul 09 13:18
BobSpritealot of languages i have no or little use for too, so I dont use them and get on with my life, and if I obsessed over everthing I did not use, thats all I would ever do.Jul 09 13:18
NgMinceR: sure, but that's kinda true in java as well if you use system-specific componentsJul 09 13:19
MinceRrightJul 09 13:19
MinceRbut you need to rely on them less thereJul 09 13:19
BobSpriteI would suggest if you dont like mono but you do like java, that you dont use mono, and you do use java !! solved !! nextJul 09 13:20
mitsuhikoi have a good suggestion for all mono hatersJul 09 13:20
MinceRi don't like java that much either :>Jul 09 13:20
oiaohmI don't like java.Jul 09 13:20
mitsuhikowhy not switch over to kde?Jul 09 13:21
mitsuhikothey don't have any mono applicationsJul 09 13:21
oiaohmBut its just part of the job BobSpriteJul 09 13:21
mitsuhikoand stop bashingJul 09 13:21
MinceRthat isn't trueJul 09 13:21
MinceRthere's kerry (or what it's called), for example :>Jul 09 13:21
MinceRi used kde until kde4 struck and kde3 was removed from ubuntuJul 09 13:21
MinceRi'm still undecided on what i'm going to use on lennyJul 09 13:22
oiaohmSad part is performance wise on windows boxes .net can do a little better.    Java is way better on Linux and Unix's for performance.Jul 09 13:22
BobSpriteits a part of your job to complain on #boycottnovell IRC about mono ?? wowJul 09 13:22
_Hicham_MinceR : use LXDEJul 09 13:22 can even be slower than PHP at times.Jul 09 13:22
MinceRi didn't like lxde that muchJul 09 13:23
BobSpriteYes, I dont like pascal either, so I put it out of my mind, and use what I like.Jul 09 13:23
MinceRBobSprite: is it a part of your job to troll?Jul 09 13:23
oiaohmMain reason .net does not have a place with the work I do.  It simply does not perform.Jul 09 13:23
oiaohmAnd has had legal questions about using it on other platforms.Jul 09 13:23
BobSpriteThen dont use it then, and MinceR do you think questioning and logic is trolling ??  ok thats your call. but i see that troll word used when all arguments fail, !Jul 09 13:25
oiaohmNext problem web space is more expensive on windows servers than Linux and Unix ones.Jul 09 13:25
MinceRBobSprite: do you think what you're doing is questioning and logic?Jul 09 13:25
oiaohmLot of companies don't set themselves up right to be cross platform so they can buy from who ever.Jul 09 13:25
BobSpriteI know its certainly not name calling,Jul 09 13:26
oiaohmYou pushed the idea people had to know C# simple fact they don't.Jul 09 13:26
MinceRBobSprite: i don't think the standard 'ask the same thing over and over and ignore all answers/arguments' routine is anything but trolling.Jul 09 13:26
mitsuhikooiaohm: so is python performanceJul 09 13:26
oiaohmThe issue is can they get the job done.Jul 09 13:26
mitsuhikothat doesn't stop people from using itJul 09 13:26
oiaohmpython performance is being worked on.Jul 09 13:27
oiaohmBecause people using it hate it performance.Jul 09 13:27
BobSpritefor some jobs a broad knowledge of programming is an advantage, for most jobs you are right and they are now.Jul 09 13:27
Muttleyjust out of interest what is the "better" alternative to f-spot?Jul 09 13:27
trmancosolangJul 09 13:27
trmanco:-pJul 09 13:27
BobSpritenot*Jul 09 13:27
mitsuhikooiaohm: and python performance will not improve noticable because of some mistakes made in the languageJul 09 13:27
MinceRthere's also digikamJul 09 13:27
MinceRbut i've never used either.Jul 09 13:27
mitsuhikoc# has a lot better chances thereJul 09 13:27
trmancog-photoJul 09 13:27
oiaohmmitsuhiko: what mistakes.Jul 09 13:28
trmancog-thumb*Jul 09 13:28
MuttleyI tried digikam and it was rubbishJul 09 13:28
Muttleyhaha, g-thumb?Jul 09 13:28
mitsuhikolike guaranteeing semantics wise that global names are looked up all the time (eg, volatile)Jul 09 13:28
MinceRi prefer gqviewJul 09 13:29
mitsuhikoif they would optimize the LOAD_GLOBAL into fastlocal access it would help jits a lotJul 09 13:29
MinceRbut it's not a one-to-one replacement to f-spot.Jul 09 13:29
oiaohmwhat version of digikam.Jul 09 13:29
Muttleygqview?Jul 09 13:29
MinceRit's an image viewer with collection management functionality.Jul 09 13:30
Muttleyyou do know that f-spot is more than an image viewJul 09 13:30
MinceRdoesn't play animated gifs though.Jul 09 13:30
MinceRi doJul 09 13:30
MinceR144729 < MinceR> but it's not a one-to-one replacement to f-spot.Jul 09 13:30
MinceRread this again.Jul 09 13:30
desusolangJul 09 13:30
oiaohmdigikam has more features than f-spotJul 09 13:30
oiaohmlayout is different.Jul 09 13:30
Muttleyalex@franklyn:~$ apt-cache search solangJul 09 13:31
Muttleyalex@franklyn:~$Jul 09 13:31
BobSpritedoes it have the file versioning that f-spot has ?Jul 09 13:32
NgMuttley: I think solang is quite newJul 09 13:32
Muttleyoh, right. so I get to sacrifice 10,000 photos to the god of instability ;)Jul 09 13:32
oiaohmI guess you missed installing kipi with digikam MuttleyJul 09 13:32
Muttleyso not only to I have to install KDE libs to get digikam to work I have it install something called kipi too?Jul 09 13:33
MinceRit's your fault you don't have the KDE libs installed already ;)Jul 09 13:33
*Muttley join's #boycottkubuntuJul 09 13:34
NgheheJul 09 13:34
MinceRi see you're already on #boycottgrammar :>Jul 09 13:34
NgMuttley: afaics f-spot is still the best gnome photo managerJul 09 13:34
_Hicham_solang is quite powerful, though it is newJul 09 13:34
MuttleyMinceR: oh wowJul 09 13:35
MinceRthere should be a tool that statically links everything together -- kernel, libs, x, apps -- into a single blobJul 09 13:35
MinceRso that you people could stop complaining about dependenciesJul 09 13:35
Muttleyhighest form of argument thereJul 09 13:35
MinceRand shared librariesJul 09 13:35
MinceR:>Jul 09 13:35
Muttleyattack someone's spelling on ircJul 09 13:35
MinceRMuttley: i'm glad you're impressed.Jul 09 13:35
*MinceR bowsJul 09 13:35
*Muttley joins inJul 09 13:35
Muttley 09 13:35
Muttleythat should be about your levelJul 09 13:36
oiaohm   << MuttleyJul 09 13:36
MinceRwrong direction, MuttleyJul 09 13:36
oiaohmThere are quite a few features missing if you miss installing kipi.Jul 09 13:36
*tacone ( has joined #boycottnovellJul 09 13:36
MinceRbut i guess "* Muttley join's #boycottkubuntu" must be some ultra-high form of argument i haven't heard of before.Jul 09 13:36
Ngprobably a form of humour :)Jul 09 13:37
MuttleyI think the term is satireJul 09 13:37
MinceRi think it's patheticJul 09 13:37
_Hicham_#boycottkubuntu #adoptopensuse #adoptmandrivaJul 09 13:37
MuttleyMinceR: that means a lotJul 09 13:37
Muttleybut then you do have an incredibly gay name ;)Jul 09 13:38
*ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jul 09 13:38
MinceRMuttley: next time read more dictionaries.Jul 09 13:39
MinceRMuttley: but now, go die in a fire.Jul 09 13:39
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Muttleyyou amaze me more and moreJul 09 13:39
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Muttleyfinally found a website for solangJul 09 13:40
Ngits savannah page is very emptyJul 09 13:40
MuttleyyeahJul 09 13:41
Muttleybut it's a webpage. I even found a screenshot or twoJul 09 13:41
Muttleythink I'll pass on thatJul 09 13:41
Ngper it's packaged in karmicJul 09 13:41
Muttleymy breath is batedJul 09 13:42
NgI'll give it a go when it can import my tags/whatever from f-spotJul 09 13:44
Ngthere's no way I'm re-doing thousands of photos ;)Jul 09 13:44
MinceRthat's part of why i keep my photos in the filesystem :>Jul 09 13:46
oiaohmThere are also image viewer/managers like  That allow you to reach out and use any image editing tool you like.Jul 09 13:46
MinceRgqview can invoke any image editing tool tooJul 09 13:46
MuttleyMinceR: can it export to Gallery and Facebook?Jul 09 13:47
MinceRwhat is Gallery? i don't care about Facebook.Jul 09 13:47
MuttleyGallery is a web gallery softwareJul 09 13:47
MinceRdoesn't that have a command-line utility to make a gallery out of a directory?Jul 09 13:48
MinceRor something similar?Jul 09 13:48
Muttleywhut?Jul 09 13:48
oiaohmgwenview can MuttleyJul 09 13:48
oiaohmSame way digikam does kipiJul 09 13:48
MuttleyMinceR: I stopped living in the 90s a while backJul 09 13:48
MinceRgood for youJul 09 13:49
MinceRmeanwhile, i can access my data with any number of appsJul 09 13:49
oiaohmThis is the difference kde developing people are building frameworks to take care of intergration with Facebook and the like.Jul 09 13:49
Muttleywhich is related to exporting photos to gallery is some way I'm sureJul 09 13:49
oiaohmSo individual applications don't have to.Jul 09 13:50
Muttleys/is/inJul 09 13:50
oiaohmGnome is really lagging in the framework department for the modern world.Jul 09 13:50
Muttleyoiaohm: that's why I use Windows 7Jul 09 13:50
oiaohmEven Windows 7 is laging compared to kde 4.3Jul 09 13:51
Muttleynow Microsoft know how to make frameworks ;)Jul 09 13:51
MinceR...that suckJul 09 13:51
MinceRthere, fixed that for youJul 09 13:51
Muttleya true shining wit you areJul 09 13:52
oiaohmThe other thing kde is developing lots of common data stores between applications.Jul 09 13:52
oiaohmSo you change applications and your data follows.Jul 09 13:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tweet about swpat with the #swpat tag?Jul 09 13:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Tweet about software patents using the #swpat tag?Jul 09 13:53
Muttleyoiaohm: if you're such a fan of KDE why do you care about mono?Jul 09 13:53
Muttleysurely mono helps KDEJul 09 13:53
MinceRMuttley: in ##windows, you don't have to suffer my shining wit.Jul 09 13:54
oiaohmMono is usless in the kde world.Jul 09 13:55
NgMinceR: I keep my photos in the filesystem too, f-spot keeps them in date directories, it's the non-exif metadata I don't want to lose :)Jul 09 13:56
oiaohmMono has major intergration problems with anything not windows.Jul 09 13:56
MinceRNg: i seeJul 09 13:56
MinceRNg: i wonder if that could be kept in extended attributes or something.Jul 09 13:56
BobSpritein other words F-Spot has features not available on any other foss appJul 09 13:56
NgMinceR: potentially, but I'm very wary of those because so few core unix tools understand themJul 09 13:57
Ng(tar your photos, cp them, rsync them and it's a crapshoot if the xattrs/acls will still be there at the other end)Jul 09 13:57
Muttleyoiaohm: that is my pointJul 09 13:57
MinceRi'd be too, but i consider them less of a hack than keeping an app-specific database of those files.Jul 09 13:57
Muttleyyou are clearly a KDE fan, so why bother hating mono?Jul 09 13:57
Muttleysurely there are better things to use that energy onJul 09 13:57
BobSpritegotta hate something !!Jul 09 13:58
MinceRMuttley: apparently you couldn't find anything better to use your energy onJul 09 13:58
oiaohmBecause I want competition.Jul 09 13:58
MinceRMuttley: so i don't see what entitles you to complain about what oiaohm uses his energy on.Jul 09 13:58
oiaohmMono poor intergration is taking developers of Gnome away from building core parts.Jul 09 13:58
MuttleyMinceR: eh?Jul 09 13:58
taconeMono tried on kde tooJul 09 13:58
MuttleyI'm not complainingJul 09 13:58
MuttleyI'm askingJul 09 13:58
oiaohmSo weaking Gnomes means to compete with KDE so reducing the pressure on KDE to improve.Jul 09 13:59
Muttleyand what do you know about what I waste my energy onJul 09 13:59
BobSpriteprobably about the same as you commenting on someone else MinccRJul 09 13:59
Muttleycurrently I'm being paid to talk shit in hereJul 09 13:59
MinceRMuttley: you're harassing people because they don't share your fanaticism for monoJul 09 13:59
MinceRBobSprite does the sameJul 09 13:59
Muttleyhuh?Jul 09 13:59
oiaohmBasically I want Gnome to be healthy.Jul 09 13:59
Muttleyhow is that harassing?Jul 09 13:59
MinceRBobSprite: i didn't come here to troll the people present, you did.Jul 09 13:59
Muttleyoiaohm: fair enoughJul 09 13:59
Muttleyjeez, I was just interestedJul 09 14:00
MinceRyes, "interested"Jul 09 14:00
MinceRthat's what you trolls always sayJul 09 14:00
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BobSpriteyes, I did notice I was doing the same is you :)Jul 09 14:00
Ngoiaohm: my view of gnome is that they spend almost all of their time building core platforms and not enough time making applications :)Jul 09 14:00
MinceR"i just asked [99 times and ignored the answer every time]"Jul 09 14:00
oiaohmThe art is doing both NgJul 09 14:00
Muttleymy view of gnome is they don't stop dicking around with the shit that works and it pisses me offJul 09 14:01
BobSpriteahh the "trolls" again, and being interested and asking for clarification is part of a balanced debate.Jul 09 14:01
oiaohmKDE developers building applications also work on core back end stuff.Jul 09 14:01
NgMuttley: don't try gnome-shell, you'll hate it ;)Jul 09 14:01
oiaohmGnome has that split.Jul 09 14:01
MinceRmy view of gnome is that they worry too much about confusing users with functionality they don't needJul 09 14:01
oiaohmIe application and back end developers being independant.Jul 09 14:01
Muttley"oh this feature works, well best we change it to some other random thing and we'll just release it in the next version with no documentation"Jul 09 14:01
MuttleycocksJul 09 14:01
oiaohmits is not healthy.Jul 09 14:01
NgMuttley: it's still better than KDE :)Jul 09 14:01
MuttleyNg: tru datJul 09 14:01
MinceRas for kde, they should have told package maintainers more clearly that kde4 is not a stable releaseJul 09 14:02
MuttleyMinceR: yeah, surely the hint was in the version numbering. stupid maintainers ;)Jul 09 14:02
oiaohmThere was confusion between KDE marketing team and the developers.Jul 09 14:02
oiaohmBoy did that cause a mess.Jul 09 14:02
BobSpriteeveryone knows all version 4 of software sucksJul 09 14:03
oiaohmAs of 4.3 99 percent of the features of 3.5 are back BobSprite.Jul 09 14:03
oiaohmPlus more.Jul 09 14:03
MuttleyBobSprite: Star Trek 4Jul 09 14:04
oiaohmYes 4.0 and 4.1 kinda did sux.  4.2 stablity was a issue.  4.3 focus is now moving to stablity as most of the features are there.Jul 09 14:04
BobSpritefeatures and performance are not the same thing,Jul 09 14:04
MuttleyRocky 4Jul 09 14:04
oiaohmIe adding lot of features under mines stablity at times BobSpriteJul 09 14:05
Muttleyit applies everywhereJul 09 14:05
Muttleybeware the 4Jul 09 14:05
oiaohmFunny enough the 4.4 KDE could be great.Jul 09 14:05
Muttleyin chinese the word is linked to deathJul 09 14:05
Muttleyit's clearly no coincidenceJul 09 14:05
BobSpritewin95 (windows 4) NT4, netware4,Jul 09 14:05
MinceRi haven't seen 4.3 yetJul 09 14:06
MinceRi thinkJul 09 14:06
oiaohmI have development branch.Jul 09 14:06
MinceRof course, the worst version 4 i've ever seen was of D&D. :>Jul 09 14:06
oiaohmHad it before 4.0 release as well.  Kinda knew the kde 4.0 marketing guys are stuffed up.Jul 09 14:06
BobSpriteit was a re-write from scratch, so you can expect some issues, but its something that needs to be done from time to time.Jul 09 14:08
oiaohmWorld is in tollerent.  Its not like KDE developers were pushing people to upgrade to KDE 4.0 and KDE 4.1.   Lot of distrobutions just wanted to be first all the time.Jul 09 14:11
oiaohmAnd did not take the effect on there end users into account.Jul 09 14:11
MinceRi understand that it was a rewrite from scratchJul 09 14:11
MinceRit just couldn't replace kde3.5Jul 09 14:11
oiaohmKDE 4 will replace kde 3.5 in time.Jul 09 14:11
MinceRi don't mind having kde3 and kde4 installed side-by-sideJul 09 14:11
MinceRbut for example the ubuntu maintainers apparently doJul 09 14:12
oiaohmInternal issues of the QT in kde 3.5 means its a dead end.Jul 09 14:12
MinceR(sure, it could be hacked up but i was hoping i didn't need to)Jul 09 14:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] The patent system is a religion, do you believe in it, the Pope does not seem to believe in it: 09 14:13
oiaohmThe problem people people expected KDE 4.0 to feature match 3.5 straight out box.Jul 09 14:13
oiaohmTurned on all features including the compisiting ones know to cause particular video card to die badly.Jul 09 14:13
oiaohmSo they were screwed.Jul 09 14:13
BobSpritethe very same pope that was a member of the nazi youth party ?Jul 09 14:15
MinceRwhat's your point?Jul 09 14:16
BobSpritethe pope does not believe in condoms either, i dont see what it has to do with anything eitherJul 09 14:16
oiaohmLot of people go around saying kde 4 is dead sorry  its just the start of something new.Jul 09 14:16
MuttleyBobSprite: along with every other boy over the age of 14Jul 09 14:16
MinceRi don't think it matters, it's just funny, imoJul 09 14:17
MinceR(also, it only appears in the context of medicine patents)Jul 09 14:17
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sdgdf789Hi. The website appears to be fown for me. You already know this?Jul 09 14:21
sdgdf789s/fown/down/Jul 09 14:21
BobSpriteyes, its down for me too,Jul 09 14:23
MinceRseems to be down for me tooJul 09 14:23
BobSpritemust be windows !!Jul 09 14:24
Muttleyahh, it might be my faultJul 09 14:24
MuttleyI loaded f-spotJul 09 14:24
BobSpriteI told them not to write BN in C# and use asp.netJul 09 14:25
oiaohmLOLJul 09 14:26
oiaohmBN is PHP.Jul 09 14:26
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oiaohmIts more who crashed the server.Jul 09 14:26
BobSpriteI wonder if it will help if i sent thousands of refreshes and pings to it ?Jul 09 14:26
MinceRonly if you use a botnet to do so.Jul 09 14:27
MinceRbuilt in windows technology, of course.Jul 09 14:27
oiaohmKnowledge base intergration in kde 4.4 should be interesting.Jul 09 14:27
MinceRs/in/on/Jul 09 14:28
oiaohmFirst time any of the open source desktops have steped away from the forum/mailing list model.Jul 09 14:28
BobSpriteso you people spend that much time on the desktop that it actually matters, ???Jul 09 14:30
BobSpriteI tend to use applications myselfJul 09 14:30
Muttley 09 14:31
oiaohmKDE desktop includes lots of applications BobSprite.Jul 09 14:31
oiaohmIncluding games.Jul 09 14:31
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Muttleyahh, linux and games. two words when used in a sentence together than are always guaranteed to get people rolling in the aisles ;)Jul 09 14:32
Muttleys/than/thatJul 09 14:32
Muttleydamn spelling is all over todayJul 09 14:32
MinceR1995 called. they want their news back.Jul 09 14:33
BobSpriteyes and its the applications that you use, like everyone else, sure there are apps WITH your os, but not a part of it, we all use apps, I dont just "use" the desktop, my apps do.Jul 09 14:33
BobSpriteim OS agnostic, as much as possible, its not that I dont know, it's that I dont care.Jul 09 14:33
BobSpriteeven in 2009 linux games are in teh dark ages,Jul 09 14:34
Muttleythere is always cedega :)Jul 09 14:35
MinceRwhich ones are in the dark ages?Jul 09 14:35
BobSpriteMinceR exactlyJul 09 14:35
MinceRexactly what?Jul 09 14:35
BobSpritethink about it, you'll work it out. :) (mabey).Jul 09 14:36
MinceRdo you mean "not many have been ported" by saying "they're in the dark ages"? because i can't follow that metaphor.Jul 09 14:36
MinceRthen again, that isn't true either...Jul 09 14:36
MinceRmore like "there are many games that haven't been ported or developed for gnu/linux"Jul 09 14:36
oiaohmWith a knowlegde base frame work in kde  all the applications above it can use that for there help system if they wish BobSpriteJul 09 14:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: World’s #4 website features “cunt” on front page 09 14:38
oiaohmIt means online help requests can be intergrate into the applications.  No switching to browser and back again coping instructions.Jul 09 14:38
Muttleydamn that bot is annoyingJul 09 14:38
BobSpriteso its an emulation of the chm file format, or an equivalent, thats good. but again thats the job of a modern OS to provide certain functionalities,Jul 09 14:39
oiaohmNopJul 09 14:39
oiaohmchm format is static.Jul 09 14:39
MinceRMuttley: by leaving this channel, you'll be protected from all the notices of that bot.Jul 09 14:39
BobSpritethats far from newJul 09 14:39
MuttleyMinceR: but I'd also miss out on all your wisdomJul 09 14:40
MinceRi see your predicament. decisions, decisions...Jul 09 14:40
oiaohmOnline placing of requests to a knowleadge base getting a answer from other uses in the knowledge base?  Exactly what applications do that BobSprite.Jul 09 14:40
oiaohmBasically designed to lession users need to go googling for answers.Jul 09 14:41
BobSpriteyes i know, its routine and trivial, and its been done before over and over, move along nothing new to see hereJul 09 14:41
oiaohmAs part of the application.Jul 09 14:42
BobSpriteyes, its been done and have been for years,Jul 09 14:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] new lovelace & babbage cartoon on the bbc! 09 14:43
oiaohmAs a common framework.Jul 09 14:43
oiaohmLot of things have been done for years.  But have not be standardised.  So have been a mix match of incompadible systems.Jul 09 14:45
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twitterpaid or not, you sure all full of it -> Muttley: currently I'm being paid to talk shit in hereJul 09 14:46
Muttleyare the backlogs really that interesting?Jul 09 14:47
twitternot the ones that are filled with shit.Jul 09 14:48
Muttleyso bit of a waste of time being here thenJul 09 14:49
twitternot really, I can ignore people like you.  The problem is that you keep coming back with different names.Jul 09 14:51
twitter** twitter ignores MuttleyJul 09 14:51
MuttleyrightJul 09 14:51
Muttleyso you spoke to me just to tell me you wanted to ignore meJul 09 14:52
Muttleythat;s astoundingJul 09 14:52
BobSpritenow you dont know what he's saying about you :DJul 09 14:52
twitter:)Jul 09 14:52
Muttleyyeah, now he wont know when I'm ignoring him!Jul 09 14:52
BobSpritesure is :DJul 09 14:52
BobSpritewow Muttley thats the most amazing thing ive ever heard here bar none. !!!Jul 09 14:53
twitter** twitter ignores BobSprite, again.Jul 09 14:53
BobSpritelolJul 09 14:53
Ngtwitter: please stop spamming the channel with your ignore noticesJul 09 14:54
Muttleyng: dude, careful. you'll be nextJul 09 14:54
BobSpriteyes, why come here and ignore everyone, ?? must hate to hear anything she does not believe.Jul 09 14:55
EruaranStupid comment of the week: "I believe people should give up their liberty for freedom" (a British woman interviewed on Alex Jones' 'Terrorstorm').Jul 09 14:55
BobSpritethats what you get from listening to Alex Jones!!Jul 09 14:56
Muttleystupid comments and alex jones. now there's a combinationJul 09 14:56
BobSpriteyay me, i got ignored twice :) coolJul 09 14:57
twitterI think digikam uses exif data, has a database  and also exports to web galleries.  BobSprite: in other words F-Spot has features not available on any other foss appJul 09 14:57
BobSpriteif you could hear me twitter, thats just what I was saying !!!.Jul 09 14:58
twitter*** twitter ignores Ng againJul 09 14:58
Ng!Jul 09 14:59
Muttleyshit dudeJul 09 14:59
BobSpritesensitive flower arn't you twitter.Jul 09 14:59
Ngif you're going to ignore people, that's fine, but there's no need to be so petty about it as to announce itJul 09 14:59
MinceREruaran: lolJul 09 14:59
Muttleyyou got a 3 star prefixJul 09 14:59
*dlmarti has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jul 09 15:00
NgMuttley: that tells me he/she's probably not actually ignoring people (people who say they /ignore never actually do), it's just a manual pretending ;)Jul 09 15:00
twitterI prefer to organize my photo collection the way MinceR does.  What matters is sharing them via html myself.Jul 09 15:00
BobSpriteahh a ruse !!! OKJul 09 15:00
MinceRit can be useful to notify the ignored person that they shouldn't expect replies from you...Jul 09 15:00
MinceRyou raff you ruse.Jul 09 15:00
MuttleyMinceR: no it's just a rather lame way of saying "I want to have the last word"Jul 09 15:01
BobSpriteor you can just be adult enough to see there are differing arguments and opinions, and balanced dicussion on those subjects is actually healthyJul 09 15:01
twitterHaving a database to help people looking at your pictures via html might be nice, but I'd like to leave the direct option open to them.Jul 09 15:02
MinceRnot necessarily as lame as the usual say+part method :)Jul 09 15:02
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twitterin the mean time, i use the ancient igal program to make html galleries and slide shows.Jul 09 15:02
Muttleysome people like to use more recent web gallery softwareJul 09 15:03
MuttleyI enjoy f-spot because it helps to export to them very quicklyJul 09 15:03
twitterif, one day, I find a database that works with apache that I really like better than igal, igal has a make clean option to erase all of it's files.Jul 09 15:03
twitterthat would be easy to script, but I like having all of the thumbnails pre generatedJul 09 15:04
BobSpriteim surprised that in 2009 Linux is still struggling with a decent picture manager !Jul 09 15:04
Muttleyjust use hackintosh and aperture :)Jul 09 15:04
MinceRlinux isn't. you are.Jul 09 15:05
Muttleydon't forget picassaJul 09 15:05
MinceRlol picasaJul 09 15:06
BobSpriteme? strugging ? Ive got thousands of photo's too, but I dont have a problem managing them,Jul 09 15:06
MinceRwho said he had a problem managing their photos?Jul 09 15:06
BobSpriteeveryone trying to work out what photo manager to use, hereJul 09 15:07
MuttleyI know what photo manager to useJul 09 15:08
Muttleybut I don't want a MacJul 09 15:08
BobSpriteneither do I,Jul 09 15:08
BobSpritewho wants a re-badged INTEL box and a re-badged OS for a premium cost :)Jul 09 15:09
MuttleyI also don't really like KDE and last time I tried digikam (admittedly a year or so back) it really wasn't very goodJul 09 15:09
Muttleyso I used f-spot at the momentJul 09 15:09
MinceRoh noes, there are multiple apps to choose from for a particular purpose!Jul 09 15:09
MinceRthe sky is falling!Jul 09 15:09
MinceRi'm starting to see what kind of idiots crApple products were designed forJul 09 15:10
Muttleywhich is pretty nice but still doesn't have some of the features you get in more professional packages on windows/macJul 09 15:10
Muttleyoooo, crApple. that's genius.Jul 09 15:11
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @Sporkingsdotcom finest random crap sold by a #spam mer. BLOCK.Jul 09 15:48
BobSpriteBN is still down tooJul 09 15:49
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*Muttley grabs another beerJul 09 16:11
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BobSprite 09 16:21
BobSprite 09 16:21
BobSpritesorry, but interesting articleJul 09 16:21
BobSpriteFree is not a business modelJul 09 16:22
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maxstirnerBN is down? what is the world coming toJul 09 16:26
BobSpritebeen down for awile now,Jul 09 16:27
BobSpritethey switched it over to a windows server, never been the same since.Jul 09 16:27
maxstirnerboycott novell? shouldnt think soJul 09 16:28
BobSpritehonest, roy got a sweet kickback from MS and a new laptop :DJul 09 16:28
maxstirnerthat IS funnyJul 09 16:28
maxstirnerwhere is he at anyhowJul 09 16:28
BobSpriteI thought he would be back by now too,Jul 09 16:29
Muttleymaybe he tried banshee and realised how sweet it is :)Jul 09 16:30
*tessier is getting the site back upJul 09 16:32
tessierI don't see what's wrong with it. Strange.Jul 09 16:32
Muttleydid you forget to pay microsoft for a licence to use a kernel with fat32 in it? :)Jul 09 16:34
BobSpritemabey its just re-booting for the past 3 hoursJul 09 16:35
tessierI think maybe we temporarily IP collided it yesterday when setting up a new machine. But I don't see why that didn't cause a problem yesterday instead of at 4am this morning.Jul 09 16:35
tessierThe machine that might have had its IP has been down for hours. Weird.Jul 09 16:36
tessierIt's up and can ping the gateway when I console into itJul 09 16:36
maxstirnergot withdrawal symptoms already :DJul 09 16:37
BobSpriteso its not reset in teh DNS yetJul 09 16:39
tessierAh. I know exactly what happened. Bah. We're still getting some things in place network-wise.Jul 09 16:43
BobSpriteits backJul 09 16:43
BobSpritewell done :)Jul 09 16:43
maxstirnerat last!Jul 09 16:44
maxstirnerplus new materialJul 09 16:44
maxstirner:DJul 09 16:44
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neighborleeI think this eet person is heading down illlegal paths...he's actuallly getting violent.Jul 09 17:08
neighborleeI hope those that support his views will start to distance themselves and do so very publiclyJul 09 17:08
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BobSpritewho ?Jul 09 17:20
Muttleysome guy who seems to  have got a little worked upJul 09 17:23
neighborleeeetJul 09 17:27
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neighborlee 09 17:28
neighborleefirst commentJul 09 17:28
neighborleeevery single mono supporter should be reigning him inJul 09 17:28
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Muttleyneighborlee: why? if people think that he represents all mono supporters that's their dumb luckJul 09 17:30
neighborleeyou dont get itJul 09 17:30
neighborleetry againJul 09 17:30
Muttleywhat?Jul 09 17:30
Muttleyis he some head of the pro-mono squad or something?Jul 09 17:30
neighborleethat is pathetic of youJul 09 17:31
MuttleyI'm sorry but I'm not responsible for what other people sayJul 09 17:31
neighborleeoh reallyJul 09 17:31
neighborleelets check history on that oneJul 09 17:31
Muttleyuh>Jul 09 17:32
Muttley?Jul 09 17:32
neighborlee?Jul 09 17:32
MuttleyI'm sorry but why should other people apologise for him, surely he's best just ignoredJul 09 17:32
Muttleyif anything you should have a go at who ever replied to him for feeding the trollJul 09 17:32
Muttleyif I spent time dressing down everyone who ever posted a stupid comment on the internet who might have mildly similar views to me on a particular subject I'd never get anything doneJul 09 17:34
Muttleyignore the guy, move onJul 09 17:34
neighborleetell that to the jewish people about hitler..extreme example but I think you get the ideaJul 09 17:36
Muttleywtf?Jul 09 17:36
neighborleebut anyway , yes time to move onJul 09 17:36
Muttleyseriosuly you didn';t just say that did you?Jul 09 17:36
neighborleeno this is all a dream of yours..Jul 09 17:36
Muttleycomparing a tard on the internet to the holocaustJul 09 17:36
MuttleywowJul 09 17:36
MuttleyI'm amazedJul 09 17:37
neighborleeyou should be..Jul 09 17:37
MuttleyseriosulyJul 09 17:37
neighborleeyour illl attempt at fainting to convey sympathy is amusing, but unconvincingJul 09 17:37
Muttleyyou obviously take things way to seriously if you can even think of comparing what some idiot says on the internet to the murder of millions of peopleJul 09 17:37
desui see Muttley still hasn't given upJul 09 17:37
neighborlee:)Jul 09 17:38
Muttleydesu: don't worry I've almost been stunned to silence by thatJul 09 17:38
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desudon't be, please continue trolling.Jul 09 17:38
Muttleytrolling?Jul 09 17:38
_Hicham_hi neighborleeJul 09 17:38
neighborleeMuttley, its the pattern im referring to..if you cant see that, they your eyes have a huge log in themJul 09 17:38
neighborlee_Hicham_, hi thereJul 09 17:38
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Muttleyneighborlee: the patern? sorryJul 09 17:39
_Hicham_neighborlee : interested in testing solang ?Jul 09 17:39
MuttleyI'm confusedJul 09 17:39
neighborleeof course you areJul 09 17:39
Muttleyare you saying give this guy a few years and he'll be gassing free software advocates?Jul 09 17:39
neighborlee_Hicham_, I cant in windowsJul 09 17:39
neighborlee:(Jul 09 17:40
_Hicham_neighborlee : okJul 09 17:40
neighborleesorryJul 09 17:40
neighborleebe happy to later today..soon I must go to clients homeJul 09 17:40
_Hicham_neighborlee : anyway, it is in my repoJul 09 17:40
neighborleekJul 09 17:40
neighborleeMuttley, he already has, you just seem happy to let him continue.Jul 09 17:41
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Muttleyneighborlee: I'm sorry, are you high?Jul 09 17:42
neighborleeI dont do drugsJul 09 17:42
neighborleeof anykindJul 09 17:42
Muttleyperhaps you should startJul 09 17:42
neighborleeMuttley, now you sound like eetJul 09 17:43
Muttleyseriously, the guy is just a tard who said something really stupid on a blogJul 09 17:43
neighborleeMuttley, no he's not a tardJul 09 17:43
neighborleeMuttley, he's YOUJul 09 17:43
Muttleyoh righty thenJul 09 17:43
neighborlee:)Jul 09 17:43
MuttleyI guess you're not meaning that literally but in a "you wont denounce him so you support him way"Jul 09 17:44
Muttleybut still that's pretty far fetchedJul 09 17:44
Muttleythough maybe you do mean it literally so should I be flattered that you don't think I'm a tard?Jul 09 17:45
*neighborlee is out of peanutsJul 09 17:45
MuttleyI'm sure there is a joke in there about nutbarsJul 09 17:46
desui wonder why those who support microsoft, novell and mono still hang in here...Jul 09 17:46
Muttleythen the only noise in here would be the bot repeating crap every 5 minutesJul 09 17:48
desuwhich is much more tolerable than your crap.Jul 09 17:49
Muttleyto be honest I only tend to speak in response to someone elseJul 09 17:50
Muttleyif you want your one sided circle jerk then make the channel invite only and only let in who agrees with youJul 09 17:50
desuwhich you shouldn't have been able to read since you shouldn't have been here.Jul 09 17:50
MuttleyI "shouldn't" have been here?Jul 09 17:51
desucompare it to the gay guy in anti-gay chatrooms, who's still trying to advocate gay-ness...Jul 09 17:51
Muttleywell we have a MinceR alreadyJul 09 17:51
Muttleybut so what?Jul 09 17:52
Muttleywhy shouldn't that gay guy be there?Jul 09 17:52
MinceRMuttley: stop projecting, faggotJul 09 17:53
Muttleyhey, I can't help it if you have a name that is just very funny to british people ;)Jul 09 17:54
MinceRlook at your own name firstJul 09 17:54
Muttleyit's a cartoon dogJul 09 17:54
Muttleyunless there is some american euphemism I'm not aware ofJul 09 17:55
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neighborleeMinceR, please tell me, you didn't just say thatJul 09 17:56
Ngall people should publically condemn thatJul 09 17:56
MuttleyyeahJul 09 17:56
Muttleyall people of the worldJul 09 17:56
MuttleyNOWJul 09 17:57
Muttley;)Jul 09 17:57
neighborleeMuttley, be my guestJul 09 17:57
Muttleybut hey, it's the internetJul 09 17:57
MinceRneighborlee: go hug him then.Jul 09 17:57
Muttleythe veil of anonymity means people say stupid stuffJul 09 17:57
*neighborlee hugs Muttley qJul 09 17:57
MuttleyawwJul 09 17:57
neighborleethere you go minceJul 09 17:57
*Muttley hugs backJul 09 17:57
neighborleeLOLJul 09 17:57
MinceRMuttley: and you seem to be the prime example of thatJul 09 17:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Foxnews to host: ixnay on the azi-nay! 09 17:58
neighborleeMuttley, your turnJul 09 17:58
MuttleyI hugged last!Jul 09 17:58
neighborleeim talking about eetJul 09 17:58
NgI condemn eetJul 09 17:58
Ngwho's eet and what did they do?Jul 09 17:58
Muttleyok, eet is an idiotJul 09 17:58
neighborleenot here, but thats something at leastJul 09 17:59
MuttleyI'm pretty sure I said that a few times alreadyJul 09 17:59
BobSpriteim sure Muttley is not eet, so what he's saying (muttley) is that eet is one person who is entited to say what he likes, and its got nothing to do with muttleyJul 09 17:59
neighborleeNg, < first person to commment thereJul 09 17:59
neighborleeBobSprite, thats a purely one dimensional way of looking at it..but sure ok.Jul 09 18:00
BobSpritesome mentioned the jews, are you saying everyone who is austrian or german kills jews ?? ofcourse not. that would be stupidJul 09 18:00
neighborleedo you really think thats what I'm saying  :)Jul 09 18:01
Muttleywell you compared what eet said to the murder of millions of peopleJul 09 18:01
BobSpriteyour implying guilt by association so yes I guess I amJul 09 18:01
Muttleythat's taking things a little too seriouslyJul 09 18:01
Ngneighborlee: a pretty stupid comment to be sure, although I think the article above is pretty mental tooJul 09 18:01
BobSpriteyou grouped "mono supporters" in one basket, I did notJul 09 18:02
Ngand Roy really does himself no favours with his writing style :/Jul 09 18:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @ClaraKeck ten "giggle" tweets and two spam links. gosh, I won't spot that that's #spam .Jul 09 18:03
Muttleyng: it's pretty direJul 09 18:03
Muttleyit's like the guys on 09 18:03
Ng"pro-MONOpolists" - that's just crassJul 09 18:03
Muttleyahh, but catchy!Jul 09 18:03
Muttleyall the cool kids will be using itJul 09 18:03
Ngit would be much easier to take his concerns seriously if his bias wasn't dripping off the screenJul 09 18:04
MinceRyou wouldn't anywayJul 09 18:04
MinceRso why complain?Jul 09 18:04
BobSpriteand your not biased ?Jul 09 18:04
NgI'm not complaining, I'm criticisingJul 09 18:05
MinceRand what about you, BobSprite?Jul 09 18:05
neighborleeNg, ok well I can meet you half way on that one in some about the rest of you can you at least see the danger in eet's comment,...or are you also blinded by your rage of all things mono hating ?Jul 09 18:05
Muttleyneighborlee: what danger?Jul 09 18:06
neighborleesee thats why we are on this somehow..eventualy work TOGETHERJul 09 18:06
MuttleyseriosulyJul 09 18:06
Muttleyyou think he's going to kill someone?Jul 09 18:06
MinceRas long as the human nature is what it is, we never willJul 09 18:06
Muttleyhe's probably some spotty 14 year old kid who drank too much coca colaJul 09 18:06
BobSpriteim impartial, and just try to deal in facts where possible and to aviod FUD, and as for my OS preference I dont really have one, as I said I dont use my OS, I have apps that use it.Jul 09 18:06
Ngneighborlee: I have no rage in this at all :)Jul 09 18:06
MinceRjudging by that comment, eet is a douche.Jul 09 18:07
neighborleeI wasnt referring to NgJul 09 18:07
neighborleeNg, not youJul 09 18:07
Ngneighborlee: I think some people on both sides are being completely ridiculous about what should just be a simple technical and legal debate :)Jul 09 18:07
BobSpriteoh, ive got rage, :)  im got it up the ying yang !! :)Jul 09 18:07
neighborleewhyJul 09 18:07
BobSpriteit was never a technical or legal debate to start with.Jul 09 18:07
neighborleeMinceR, and those that wont say so , are equally  guiltyJul 09 18:08
MinceRneighborlee: i don't understandJul 09 18:08
BobSpriteequally guilty or equally innocent ???Jul 09 18:08
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Muttleyneighborlee: so basically it's guilt by association? Have you apologised to every black man you've met for slavery?Jul 09 18:14
MuttleybahJul 09 18:14
BobSpritewas muttley duddley doolashes dog ?Jul 09 18:16
MinceRno, Dick Dastardly'sJul 09 18:16
BobSpritethats right whacky races ?Jul 09 18:17
Muttleydick dastardlyJul 09 18:17
MuttleyyeahJul 09 18:17
Muttleyand Dastardly & MuttleyJul 09 18:17
Muttleywhere they have to catch the pidgon :)Jul 09 18:17
Muttleythis has been my irc nick for about 14 years now so I can't be arsed changing itJul 09 18:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Charlie Stross has posted his autobiography to his blog. I loved this post on the arse-end of IT, and the comments: 09 18:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[nickballard] Richard Stallman trolled by touchy-feely audience member: 09 19:23
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Omar87HiJul 09 19:28
Omar87 09 19:28
Omar87"But if “open core” is a perfectly legitimate open source stance, users may always wonder what is inside the core and what outside, an ambiguity vendors (starting with Microsoft) could use to end the free software era."Jul 09 19:28
Omar87Still, some people call me an idiot for not trusting the Community Promise.Jul 09 19:29
MinceRi wonder if those people are paid to do so or are simply so stupid on their own.Jul 09 19:29
Omar87MinceR: Which poeple?Jul 09 19:30
Omar87people*Jul 09 19:30
MinceRthe ones who call you (and me) an idiot for not trusting the CPJul 09 19:31
Omar87MinceR: LOL! Actually the guy who called me an idiot earlier today is in this channel right now, and he knows himself. :)Jul 09 19:32
Omar87I can even tell the first letter of his nickname.Jul 09 19:32
MinceRwe have high troll activity today.Jul 09 19:32
Omar87I just wonder.Jul 09 19:33
Omar87Why, on Mars, would a company which broke all the rules, law and standards morph into an angel and give FOSS and a long, lingering kiss all of a sudden?Jul 09 19:35
Omar87What are we?? Fools?!Jul 09 19:35
Omar87They ruined the entire ISO association a couple o' years back, for God's sake!Jul 09 19:36
Omar87><Jul 09 19:38
MinceRthey say either that m$ has always been an angel ("leave your facts out of this!") or that all other companies are exactly as evil (and obviously, only companies can develop software, what did you think?)Jul 09 19:38
desu<MinceR> i wonder if those people are paid to do so or are simply so stupid on their own. <--- mix of bothJul 09 19:39
Omar87M$ has always been angel.. >>> To be more accurate, M$ is a serpent which only idiots and naive people see as an angel.Jul 09 19:41
Omar87To all M$ fanboys: I dare you to give me one single reason why I should trust M$ now.Jul 09 19:44
desubcuz ur stoopidJul 09 19:45
desuthat's what an M$ fanboy would say, not me >.>Jul 09 19:45
Omar87desu: Yeah man. That's all they have.Jul 09 19:47
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desuno uJul 09 19:47
desuwould be their rebuttal, not mine.Jul 09 19:47
Omar87desu: Huh?Jul 09 19:48
Omar87desu: Yeah, I know.Jul 09 19:48
desu youJul 09 19:49
desuor 09 19:49
LnsYou guys, no matter how many little PR campaigns MS starts talking about how much open source they are...come on. Seriously. Do any of the people who have followed their track record actually buy it this time?Jul 09 19:56
LnsIt's the case of the forgetful. You forget all of the other bad things they've done to hurt the community because they say "I've changed!" (I get the picture of Saddam in the South Park movie, heh)Jul 09 19:57
LnsHuman memory is a valuable thing. You can't forget what they've done in the past. You can't deny their ultimate goal of power. They are a power hungry company. Always has been. They're not going to make an about face and be all "Oh, yeah, we decided to share all of our IP with the world because we woke up one morning and realized it was the right thing to do". The uppers in that company don't have that mindset.Jul 09 19:58
LnsThat being said, maybe *some* of the people there "get it" and are trying to make change. but something like that doesn't happen overnightJul 09 19:59
MinceRi think they never noticed what m$ didJul 09 19:59
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MinceRor never caredJul 09 19:59
Lnswell then this initiative is moot to them...Jul 09 20:01
Lnsto the FOSS's a bit differentJul 09 20:01
Omar87desu: ROFLMAO!! I friggi' loved this article! :DJul 09 20:01
Omar87friggin'*Jul 09 20:01
desuno u =3=Jul 09 20:02
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tessier_Wasn't Microsoft at some point forced to open up formats and protocols but documented them in a half-assed impossible to implement way?Jul 09 20:26
tessier_I was pretty sure some consent decree or somethign did that.Jul 09 20:26
tessier_Trying to find a cite...Jul 09 20:26
ThistleWebtessier: that was on the samba protocols, they tried their best to fight it, then didnt really comply in any meaningful way which got them into even more troubleJul 09 20:27
ThistleWebMS have always tried to hide behind the "it's our IP, if we share it, they will get a leg up on us, and we get punished for innovating" excuseJul 09 20:28
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Omar87ThistleWeb: That's only because they know that whatever it is they claim to be "their IP" is nothing new and is just a copy of some other open source technology.Jul 09 21:02
ThistleWebit did occur to me if part of the reason MS dont want thier code getting out, is that parts of it are not theirs, and the original owner would see it and make a legal claim of copyright infringement, not to mention those who understand code would see what a pile of shit it is, with evidence of distorting stuff to fuck with competitorsJul 09 21:03
ThistleWebif they just put out the compiled binary, the source (stolen or not) is never seenJul 09 21:04
ThistleWebmodified at certain times to ask for some new authorisation, suspiciously a few weeks after some FOSS project got it working smoothJul 09 21:07
ThistleWebit'd be curious to see how many lawsuits the Windows source code could trigger for MS if it was ever made publicJul 09 21:08
ThistleWebor anti-trust investigations from those willing to do their jobsJul 09 21:08
LnsThistleWeb: win2k source was made public not too long ago...Jul 09 21:09
Lnsnot by their intention, of course =pJul 09 21:09
ThistleWeba small part of it wasJul 09 21:09
ThistleWebthey went nuts over itJul 09 21:09
ThistleWebbut it was only a tiny partJul 09 21:09
ThistleWebapparentlyJul 09 21:09
Lnsim sure most of their "borrowed" code was from *bsd licensed stuff anywayJul 09 21:10
desuNOJul 09 21:10
ThistleWebmost would be, yesJul 09 21:10
desuMY CODE!Jul 09 21:10
ThistleWebbut I doubt all of it wasJul 09 21:10
Lnsit'd probably end up being just like Apple...bsd core, on top of their own uiJul 09 21:10
MinceRand they support sw patents just like crAppleJul 09 21:11
Lnserr...their own ui on top of the bsd core that is =pJul 09 21:11
ThistleWebapple and MS do like free software; providing it's licensed under conditions that allow them to take it, modify it to help their lockin and not give the modifications backJul 09 21:11
MinceRwell, they're notorious for building the gui into the kernel :>Jul 09 21:11
LnshaJul 09 21:11
Lnsremember what their tcp/ip stack was like before they took the bsd version?Jul 09 21:12
ThistleWebthe GPL requires them to give their changes back, hence the GP is their kryptoniteJul 09 21:12
MinceRThistleWeb: and after they've run off with the code, they try to make it impossible to publish such code in the future so they don't have to compete with those whose code they've ripped off.Jul 09 21:12
MinceRLns: they had one?Jul 09 21:12
LnsMinceR: didn't they? or was that a 3rd pty thingJul 09 21:12
MinceRdunnoJul 09 21:13
LnsI remember whatever it wsa, it was horrible...trumpet winsock or some junkJul 09 21:13
MinceRi vaguely remember trumpet winsockJul 09 21:13
MinceRi didn't have it because i didn't have internet access back thenJul 09 21:13
MinceRmaybe i eventually got it, i'm not sureJul 09 21:13
LnsI just remember looking at it during an os/2 install with renegade bbs on top of itJul 09 21:13
LnsyuckJul 09 21:13
Lnsor wait, that was something else =p nmJul 09 21:14
ThistleWebwhen your devs are constantly told by your marketing peeps to make stuff that only works with windows the results cant be good. Either you have to code from scratch stuff that already exists and is cross platform that you could take and modifyJul 09 21:15
ThistleWebwhen an elegant solution already exists, you have to intentionally fuck with it to meet the marketing peeps demands of lockinJul 09 21:15
ThistleWebeven if the devs know it's less efficient, or more buggyJul 09 21:16
ThistleWebI guess the concept of using incompatibility as a weapon must sit OK with you if you work for MSJul 09 21:17
ThistleWebso they wont lose sleep over the ethics of doing thatJul 09 21:17
Lnswell sureJul 09 21:17
Lnsthey think they're still the best around just because of their userbaseJul 09 21:17
Lnsthat's their whole business...what they gained before competitors really could get a hold of the marketJul 09 21:17
Lnsthey're doing everything they can to hold onto that, but it's slipping away as new technologies emergeJul 09 21:18
ThistleWebplenty of peeps buy the whole "MS got to where they are by being the best" view of the FTSEJul 09 21:18
MinceRwhat's FTSE?Jul 09 21:18
ThistleWebif they were as bad as their critics claim, they wouldn't be a rich companyJul 09 21:18
ThistleWebstock exchangeJul 09 21:18
MinceRicJul 09 21:18
ThistleWebthe FTSE only shows the values, not what the companies do to get that valueJul 09 21:19
Lnsi fucking hate money.. it has hindered progress in all aspects of human life for way too longJul 09 21:19
MinceRnah, human nature did thatJul 09 21:20
ThistleWebchild labor? well, if it helps pump the products out cheaper, so we get more profit I can pretend I didn't hear thatJul 09 21:20
ThistleWebwhere bribes and kickbacks are all just a cost of doing businessJul 09 21:20
Lnsmoney directly conflicts with morals/ethics imhoJul 09 21:21
ThistleWebwrite them of as a non-descript expense froma slush fundJul 09 21:21
ThistleWebif the media get a sniff of it, send the legal bullies in to set them straightJul 09 21:21
ThistleWebif they still insist, make a few calls and have any inquiry stopped under national security groundsJul 09 21:22
LnslolJul 09 21:22
Lnsjust like M$ claimed it'd be a threat to national security if the source from windows was releasedJul 09 21:22
MinceRmoney merely stands in place of some other easily portable item in barterJul 09 21:22
MinceR(of course the system is a lot more screwy now, but that is money too)Jul 09 21:22
ThistleWebjust make sure the important part goes down without a hitch......the envelopes of cash MUST get to their targets promptlyJul 09 21:22
LnsMinceR: maybe that's the problem, we need to extinguish all universally portable items of valueJul 09 21:23
MinceRlolJul 09 21:23
Lnshmmmmmmm... hahaJul 09 21:24
MinceRno, we need to change the human mindsetJul 09 21:24
MinceReliminate the conditioning that turns society into what it is nowJul 09 21:24
Lnsbut how can we fund a project like that?! =pJul 09 21:24
Lnsit's not even all human societies...just the most powerful onesJul 09 21:25
MinceRi'd explain further but i'd get complaints of saying certain stuff here yet againJul 09 21:25
ThistleWebit is funny that MS made special "secure" versions of Windows for the US military to stop them migrating away, when the masses had to rely on the regular old cheese version......which is the same one (multiplied by millions) that get's pwnd and used to attack the US military networks in the form of a botnetJul 09 21:25
Lnswhat goes around...hehJul 09 21:25
LnsMinceR: i agree with you 100%Jul 09 21:25
ThistleWebit would seem that a more scure windows would be in EVERY windows users' interestsJul 09 21:25
LnsThistleWeb: of course it would, just not the companyJul 09 21:26
MinceRm$ sees it differentlyJul 09 21:26
Lnsthey wouldn't make money off the upgrades if that were the caseJul 09 21:26
ThistleWebit does have a heathy revinue stream from being insecureJul 09 21:26
MinceRalso, withholding updates is one way they believe they can force verified illegal users to buy a licenseJul 09 21:26
ThistleWebit's not exactly in their interests to make it secureJul 09 21:26
Lnsyou'd think one of the richest companies in the world could handle making their software secure after ~30 yearsJul 09 21:27
ThistleWebMinceR: they used to do that with critical updates but not anymoreJul 09 21:27
ThistleWebthey let critical ones go, even to windows they know are illegalJul 09 21:27
MinceRis every security update also critical?Jul 09 21:27
ThistleWebthey just block all the optional ones, like new features, or versions of stuff like WMPJul 09 21:27
MinceRdo they block updates to DRM? :>Jul 09 21:28
Lnsone good reason to use a pirated version of windows, i guess hahahaJul 09 21:28
ThistleWebanything they deem critical, which is the security ones (and WGA and OGA etc) goes to every windows pcJul 09 21:28
MinceRicJul 09 21:29
ThistleWebthe wga shit is annoying, you need to install it to get updates from microsoft.comJul 09 21:29
ThistleWebbut, you can disable the automatic updates in windows XP at least, then have it inform you but dont download and installJul 09 21:29
MinceRalso, it's useless (see wine on ubuntu being "genuine")Jul 09 21:29
ThistleWebthen you pick and choose what you want, unticking WGA inthe process, and it does it offers you all the stuff supposedly behind the WGA requirement of the siteJul 09 21:30
ThistleWebanything unticked will trigger the "dont inform me of updates I have not ticked again"Jul 09 21:31
ThistleWebso you wont ever get the WGA, nor be pestered for itJul 09 21:31
trmanco"Replace instances of LINUX2 with OS_CHROMEOS and linux2 with chromeos."Jul 09 21:32
trmancohahaJul 09 21:32
MinceRtrmanco: huh?Jul 09 21:32
ThistleWebjust make sure you select "custom install" to select the updates, because "automatic" will give you everything including WGAJul 09 21:32
trmancoMinceR, a commit from chromiumJul 09 21:32
trmancoI think it might have to do with there future osJul 09 21:33
MinceRicJul 09 21:33
MinceRi wonder if this also means that chrome browser will stop supporting xJul 09 21:34
trmanconopeJul 09 21:35
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Omar87LOL.Jul 09 21:48
Omar87Now, that Google are building their own netbook OS, Win XP will no longer find place in the netbook market. :)Jul 09 21:49
Omar87find *it's* placeJul 09 21:49
ThistleWebthere;s always a plcae if the kickbakcs are rightJul 09 21:49
ThistleWeblet's try that again without typos "there's always a place if the kickbacks are right"Jul 09 21:50
ThistleWebI see a problem for MS when they can no longer pay their shills to promote themJul 09 21:50
ThistleWebthey have no real fans fighting their cause on meritJul 09 21:51
ThistleWebthose who do have some financial reason to do itJul 09 21:51
ThistleWebnot that is is a "problem" as such.....more of a prolonged popcorn hourJul 09 21:52
MinceRmaybe there will be some who will try to beat some value into their worthless MSFT stockJul 09 21:52
ThistleWebthose also have something to gain by itJul 09 21:52
ThistleWebthey will have some who have bought into the myth, and beat the drum because it's all they know, and switching to anything else means they're back to normal user levelJul 09 21:53
ThistleWebfor some reason I'm getting an image of a dead horse covered in fleas, with some fat blokes in suits beating the shit out of itJul 09 21:54
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ThistleWebI'm sure it's coincidental ;)Jul 09 21:54
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ThistleWebanother thought just occurred to me about the level of stability required in an "enterprise" level OSJul 09 21:58
ThistleWebhave they seen the shit windows does?Jul 09 21:58
ThistleWebyet that somehow found its way into almost every "enterprise desktop" situation on the planetJul 09 21:58
ThistleWebbasicly "as stable as windows" appears to be the benchmarkJul 09 21:59
MinceRthey've lowered the expectationsJul 09 21:59
ThistleWebwhich means that every testing beta version of Linux is "enterprise" readyJul 09 21:59
ThistleWebthat's the stuff that even linux users wouldn't install on a work desktopJul 09 22:00
ThistleWeblike LugRadio would say "as secure as windows" is like a "taller than Ronny Corbert competition"; it's not saying muchJul 09 22:02
ThistleWebstable evenJul 09 22:03
trmanco""MS is ROBUST and a titanic force."Jul 09 22:06
trmancoI think you mean BLOATED not robust. But titanic fits. It sank too."Jul 09 22:06
trmancohahaJul 09 22:06
ThistleWebyeah, Titanic is a good description, with plenty of parasite companies gleefully fighting each other for a spot on the handrail to handcuff themselves toJul 09 22:07
trmanco 09 22:08
ThistleWebasp gives off a friendly image.....a snakeJul 09 22:08
ThistleWebpossibly even extinctJul 09 22:08
ThistleWebthe asp was mentioned a lot in regards to ancient EgyptJul 09 22:09
trmancothat's a microsoft blogJul 09 22:09
trmanco./news siteJul 09 22:09
ThistleWebmind you, python can also fit thatJul 09 22:09
ThistleWebyeah, I'm suspect of sites which use MS formats like asp, that it's gonna be another MS shill site.....although you'd expect the MS site to do their own dirty workJul 09 22:10
ThistleWebI noticed the BBC take on it had quotes from Rob Enderle and GartnerJul 09 22:12
ThistleWebboth completely neutral of course lolJul 09 22:12
trmanco:-)Jul 09 22:13
ThistleWebI noticed in the comments, "google is an unpatriotic competitor" which must mean unpatroitic to the USJul 09 22:18
ThistleWebwhich means that if everyone thought like that and used software from their countries, MS could only sell in the USJul 09 22:19
ThistleWebnon-US peeps would be unpatriotic using MS productsJul 09 22:19
ThistleWebplenty of peeps resent the US domination of almost everythingJul 09 22:19
ThistleWebapart fromt he shareholders of the aforementioned US corporationsJul 09 22:20
ThistleWebI'm sure the MS sales team bring up the nationalism reason when in meetings with non-US buyers that it's their patriotic duty to buy USJul 09 22:20
ThistleWebgotta be loyal to the USJul 09 22:21
ThistleWebotherwise you risk being invadedJul 09 22:21
ThistleWeb;)Jul 09 22:21
trmanco 09 22:22
trmancopffJul 09 22:22
trmancoor nukedJul 09 22:22
trmancothey like nukesJul 09 22:22
ThistleWebtrmanco: "pff"? were you channeling a dog fart?Jul 09 22:23
trmancoThistleWeb, LOL, no I changed my mind about what I would write nextJul 09 22:24
ThistleWebahh, I would say "phew" but that'd play into the dog fart ideaJul 09 22:25
trmancothat "pff" was accidental wasn't suppose to come out :-PJul 09 22:25
ThistleWebsome farts are like thatJul 09 22:25
trmancoyeahJul 09 22:26
ThistleWebspecially when you're in a situation where you can;t deny itJul 09 22:26
trmancobut it wasn't a fartJul 09 22:26
ThistleWebor it could possibly be more fragrant than you expectJul 09 22:26
trmancoschestowitz, is back?Jul 09 22:28
trmancohe posted some articlesJul 09 22:31
trmancoI wonder if he is backJul 09 22:31
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tessier_MS has been afloat longer than Titanic ever was.Jul 09 23:20
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tessier_In fact the Titanic's successor, Queen Mary, sailed for 33 years. Microsoft has already been around for 34.Jul 09 23:25
tessier_So even had the Titanic lived a full life Microsoft likely would have outlived it.Jul 09 23:25
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