IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: July 11th, 2009

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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] black people awkwardly photoshopped in/out: 11 00:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] The National Portrait Gallery sends legal threat to Wikipedia editor after WMF told NPG to go away: 11 00:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] (This will not end well. For the NPG.)Jul 11 00:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] (The editor the NPG sent the threat to is American. Bridgeman v. Corel applies.)Jul 11 00:19
cjschestowitz: hey, did you see? It seems that the last few posts are dedicated to you: 11 00:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Wikimedia blog: Sue and be damned. 11 00:35
oiaohmcj exactly what articales there.Jul 11 00:39
blankthemuffinlol wow cjJul 11 00:50
oiaohmRoy is not affraid of people writing code.Jul 11 00:57
oiaohm  Exists due to techincal issues with mono.Jul 11 00:58
oiaohmIssue is not for the people writing the code.   its with people running businesses and distributing and using the code when it comes to patents.Jul 11 01:00
blankthemuffinVala isn't anything like mono.Jul 11 01:01
oiaohmVala has intergration.Jul 11 01:01
oiaohmMono does not.Jul 11 01:01
oiaohmSo of course its nothing like mono.  It can be used to expand the gnome frameworks.Jul 11 01:02
blankthemuffinYou can't extend the gnome libraries with python, does that make it bad?Jul 11 01:02
oiaohmCombind in the tech google is developing to use x86 as a cross platform byte code.Jul 11 01:02
oiaohmpython is pushed as a scripting language.  it is possiable to put a gobject wrapper around a python script.Jul 11 01:03
oiaohmBut due to speed it has not made it into the framework.Jul 11 01:04
oiaohmIe its not that it cannot be used that way.Jul 11 01:04
blankthemuffinhow would you do that?Jul 11 01:04
oiaohmSame way you embed python in everything else.Jul 11 01:05
blankthemuffinWell if we're talking about embedding, mono can be embeded as well you know.Jul 11 01:05
oiaohmMono uses PE files.Jul 11 01:05
oiaohmThat are designed to allow direct intergration with windows.Jul 11 01:05
blankthemuffinSo what? That's got nothing to do with it.Jul 11 01:06
oiaohmMono has not provided equal for Linux.Jul 11 01:06
oiaohmOr other platforms.Jul 11 01:06
blankthemuffinI find it pretty equal.Jul 11 01:06
oiaohmELFJul 11 01:06
oiaohmDo they have ELF wrappers?Jul 11 01:06
blankthemuffinWhy would you want thatJul 11 01:06
blankthemuffinIt can't be executed on its own anyway. It's just a container.Jul 11 01:07
oiaohmLinux executables are ELF.Jul 11 01:07
blankthemuffin<blankthemuffin> It can't be executed on its own anyway. It's just a container.Jul 11 01:07
oiaohmPE containes a run stub and can contain explorted calls for native programs to interface with.Jul 11 01:08
blankthemuffinThat'd be like getting angry because java doesn't use ELF files for its .class format.Jul 11 01:08
oiaohmSo allowing intergration on windows in way.Jul 11 01:08
oiaohmJava using gcj can be built to natives so allowing intergation.Jul 11 01:08
blankthemuffinMono using --full-aot can build to native executables, so allowing integration.Jul 11 01:09
oiaohmNopJul 11 01:09
blankthemuffinYepJul 11 01:09
blankthemuffin.NET on windows using ngen can compile to native executables. Same as Mono can for linux.Jul 11 01:10
oiaohmWindows .Net can be com objects.  gobjects are gnome equal.Jul 11 01:11
oiaohmThere are ways to bind java using gcj back to that.Jul 11 01:11
oiaohmMono simply lacks the means to do particular things.Jul 11 01:11
blankthemuffinYou simply don't understand how to do particular things and assume they don't exist.Jul 11 01:12
oiaohmWrong blankthemuffinJul 11 01:12
oiaohmThe problem is mono runtime feature was is just duplication of the gnome runtime.Jul 11 01:13
oiaohmDone different ways.Jul 11 01:14
oiaohmJava guys at least had the balls to try building there own desktop envorments.Jul 11 01:14
oiaohmDue to there known levels of incompadibles.Jul 11 01:14
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oiaohmLike with GTK# all the gobject have wrappers to .net classes.  So its translation backwards and forwards all the time.   Basically .net was not designed for gnome.Jul 11 01:17
oiaohm.Net also intergrates poorly into QT.Jul 11 01:18
oiaohmThese poor intergrations are why Java over time dropped in populatirty.Jul 11 01:18
oiaohmInstead ended up either with pure Java system or native code systems.Jul 11 01:19
oiaohmHistory is repeating blankthemuffin.Jul 11 01:19
blankthemuffinNot really, integration with native binaries is so much easier with .NET's P/Invoke than Java's system. This is one of the main reasons .NET was invented.Jul 11 01:21
blankthemuffinIf I wanted I could embed mono in Gtk and you could do anything with it.Jul 11 01:22
oiaohmIntegration needs both directions.Jul 11 01:22
oiaohmSo avoid the gobject struct blankthemuffin.Jul 11 01:23
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oiaohmThat is a mistake.Jul 11 01:23
oiaohmgobject support is the key thing that has allows the gnome applications to share parts.Jul 11 01:24
oiaohmIts called not duplicating effort blankthemuffin.   What mono on gnome effectively is causing native programs like rythombox not sharing code sections with like BansheeJul 11 01:29
oiaohmSo its effectively spliting gnome in half.Jul 11 01:29
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oiaohmKDE developers are working flat stack to allow better intergration between projects.  Anything that don't intergrate well like mono gets pushed to the edge of kde world because it can under mine development speed.Jul 11 01:37
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohmJul 11 01:40
neighborleeoiaohm, well it might not matter soon if kde becomes the one used by most foss users  instead of gnome so it might seem mono had dire consequences for gnome acceptance, not what migule had in mind ?...maybe linus was right afterall  who knows we'll see :)Jul 11 01:40
neighborleeoiaohm, honestly I'd not been all that hip on gnome lately anyway..I like how kde organizes things..and in part the same reason linus had for moving I do as wellJul 11 01:41
_Hicham_neighborlee : there is kde bindings for monoJul 11 01:42
neighborleeyup I know all about that ;)Jul 11 01:42
_Hicham_so kde is not sparedJul 11 01:42
neighborleebut  no intrusionJul 11 01:42
neighborleeyes it isJul 11 01:42
_Hicham_why?Jul 11 01:42
neighborleeive not seen any mono apps in kde have youJul 11 01:42
_Hicham_you will soonJul 11 01:43
neighborleeurlJul 11 01:43
_Hicham_they just don't have kde devsJul 11 01:43
_Hicham_all of mono devs are gnome devsJul 11 01:43
neighborleeheh imagine thatJul 11 01:43
_Hicham_once they recrute some kde devs, u will see mono penetrate kdeJul 11 01:43
neighborleeoiaohm makes a perfect point I dont think can be overcomeJul 11 01:44
_Hicham_openSUSE is one of distros that are considered to ship a perfect KDEJul 11 01:44
neighborleebad exampleJul 11 01:44
_Hicham_the top KDE distros are : openSUSE and MandrivaJul 11 01:44
neighborleeyupJul 11 01:44
neighborleemandriva has no mono that I know of..Jul 11 01:44
_Hicham_it is known to all of the worldJul 11 01:44
neighborleeit does in gnomeJul 11 01:45
_Hicham_so once they put some kde mono apps in openSUSE, a lot of distros will followJul 11 01:45
neighborleebut then enter fedoraJul 11 01:45
_Hicham_Mandriva for exampleJul 11 01:45
neighborleenow the stakes are much higher for foss advocatesJul 11 01:45
_Hicham_fedora might follow also, if the apps are proven to be of high qualityJul 11 01:46
neighborleewell ;)Jul 11 01:46
_Hicham_Novell is a big companyJul 11 01:46
neighborleeone could infer silverlight has some appeal,,it was used in some high profile cases..but you dont see them accepting moonlightJul 11 01:46
_Hicham_they are having a lot of money from microsoftJul 11 01:46
neighborleeyesJul 11 01:46
_Hicham_fedora didn't accept moonlight because it depends on non-free codecsJul 11 01:47
_Hicham_if somethings requires non free stuff, it is forbidden in fedoraJul 11 01:47
_Hicham_so u might find it in rpmfusionJul 11 01:47
neighborleesure yesJul 11 01:47
_Hicham_even rpmfusion have stricter rules than Debian/UbuntuJul 11 01:48
neighborleeyeah well ive little respect for debian anymoreJul 11 01:48
_Hicham_the point is : there is no obvious legal concerns for mono right nowJul 11 01:49
_Hicham_and the distros will package the latest monoJul 11 01:50
_Hicham_to stay competitiveJul 11 01:50
_Hicham_they all want to attract windows devsJul 11 01:50
_Hicham_it is easy to seeJul 11 01:50
neighborleeive not seen any assurance that the latest community promise is anything but vaporJul 11 01:51
neighborleewe'll seeJul 11 01:51
_Hicham_the whole mono code is gpl'edJul 11 01:52
_Hicham_there is no obvious risk til the momentJul 11 01:52
neighborleedarn I wish some music sites had better album selection <flac as in>Jul 11 01:52
_Hicham_neighborlee : there is a lot of ogg sitesJul 11 01:52 has some really nice urls for flac abled sites..but no albums I want that ive seen yet :(Jul 11 01:53
_Hicham_neighborlee : are u on fedora now ?Jul 11 01:53
neighborleenoJul 11 01:53
_Hicham_Windows on the Library?Jul 11 01:53
neighborleeI had to reinstall..and I lost fedora from windows installJul 11 01:54
neighborleeey?Jul 11 01:54
_Hicham_neighborlee : u lost the fedora partition or just grub ?Jul 11 01:54
neighborleeallJul 11 01:54
_Hicham_so u have to repartition the disk?Jul 11 01:54
neighborleeno biggie I can reinstall quick enough..have been busyJul 11 01:55
_Hicham_do u need windows that much ?Jul 11 01:56
neighborleemost defiinitely I doJul 11 01:56
neighborleeI depend on access 97 atm for invoicingJul 11 01:57
neighborleeUNForunately ;)Jul 11 01:57
neighborleeive tried everything trust meJul 11 01:57
neighborleeI can open mdb in oo in windows only, but the data makes no sense...its only structured correctly inside accessJul 11 01:58
neighborleeeventually I'll just manually convert over to like gnuash or something..just time consuming is allJul 11 01:58
_Hicham_OOo can connect to mdb filesJul 11 01:59
neighborleethats what I meanJul 11 01:59
_Hicham_I ve tried it on several mdb filesJul 11 01:59
neighborlee<neighborlee> I can open mdb in oo in windows onlyJul 11 01:59
_Hicham_the UNIX ODBC driver works great tooJul 11 01:59
neighborleebut you  cant organize the dataJul 11 01:59
fewa 11 02:00
neighborlee_Hicham_, if you know some magic im all earsJul 11 02:00
_Hicham_neighborlee : you can convert the database to another formatJul 11 02:00
_Hicham_odb for exampleJul 11 02:00
_Hicham_or you have to deal exclusively with mdb ?Jul 11 02:00
neighborleeill do almost anything to get AWAY from mdb  ;))Jul 11 02:01
_Hicham_do u have to share ur databases as mdb ?Jul 11 02:01
neighborleenoJul 11 02:01
_Hicham_why did u choose mdb then ?Jul 11 02:03
neighborleeit was AGES agoJul 11 02:05
_Hicham_OOo DataBase is very similar to accessJul 11 02:06
neighborleeyesJul 11 02:06
neighborleeso how is it convertedJul 11 02:06
_Hicham_u open the mdb database with OOoJul 11 02:08
_Hicham_then u re save it in odb formatJul 11 02:08
_Hicham_neighborlee : 11 02:10
neighborleeok ill try it later thx for info ;0Jul 11 02:13
oiaohm_Hicham_: been tried.Jul 11 02:14
_Hicham_oiaohm: what do u mean ?Jul 11 02:15
oiaohmKDE developers have classed mono as nothing more than a fancy scripting language with major debuging problems.Jul 11 02:15
oiaohmIn there eyes python is more suitable.Jul 11 02:15
_Hicham_oiaohm : KDE depends on openSUSE and MandrivaJul 11 02:15
oiaohmNoJul 11 02:15
_Hicham_they are the best KDE distrosJul 11 02:15
oiaohmKDE is a independant foundation.Jul 11 02:15
_Hicham_i knowJul 11 02:16
_Hicham_I am talking from a practical point of viewJul 11 02:16
oiaohmMore money comes from IBM than Novell and Mandriva into the foundation.Jul 11 02:16
oiaohmMoney talks.Jul 11 02:16
_Hicham_I am not talking about moneyJul 11 02:16
oiaohmDevelopers also come from IBM and HP.Jul 11 02:16
_Hicham_I am talking about the distros that are known to ship the greatest KDEJul 11 02:17
oiaohmNovell and Mandriva have very little control over the path of KDE.Jul 11 02:17
oiaohmThey basically can only do window dressing.Jul 11 02:17
_Hicham_openSUSE is the first distro in KDE packagingJul 11 02:17
_Hicham_followed by MandrivaJul 11 02:17
oiaohmDoes not matter who packages first.Jul 11 02:18
_Hicham_it is not who packages firstJul 11 02:18
_Hicham_who delivers the best packagingJul 11 02:18
oiaohmProject leads of KDE are not controlled.Jul 11 02:18
_Hicham_these are factsJul 11 02:18
oiaohmIts very hard to embed somethingJul 11 02:18
_Hicham_embed what?Jul 11 02:18
oiaohmWithout upstream support.Jul 11 02:19
oiaohmLike mono.Jul 11 02:19
oiaohmTo embed something in the desktop.Jul 11 02:19
_Hicham_there is already kde bindings for monoJul 11 02:20
oiaohmScript bindings.Jul 11 02:20
oiaohmThoses don't access the full KDE API.Jul 11 02:20
_Hicham_how do u know ?Jul 11 02:21
oiaohmI was in the debate over what mono will be classed as.Jul 11 02:22
oiaohmIt has the same classification as python.Jul 11 02:22
oiaohmSo mono can only access as much of the KDE API as python can.Jul 11 02:23
oiaohmLot of mono developers were really unhappy with that classification.Jul 11 02:24
oiaohmIt also means mono applications cannot ship as part of the main desktop.Jul 11 02:24
oiaohmSince anything classed script is a addon.Jul 11 02:24
_Hicham_they don't have to do well with kde teamJul 11 02:25
_Hicham_they have their own kde devsJul 11 02:25
_Hicham_and push it through openSUSEJul 11 02:25
oiaohmEffect nothing.Jul 11 02:25
oiaohmSince mono is not part of the main desktop other distributions have no particular reason to pick it upJul 11 02:26
oiaohmSo in KDE world mono programs would have to be impressive.Jul 11 02:26
oiaohmTo cause mono to spreed.Jul 11 02:27
blankthemuffinThat's the only reason Mono is distributed at all.Jul 11 02:28
oiaohmProblem lot of the kde world applications are better than the mono ones.Jul 11 02:28
_Hicham_but they are not well marketedJul 11 02:29
oiaohmNo its the old gnome vs kde war.Jul 11 02:29
oiaohmGnome users cannot bring themselves to use anything KDE.Jul 11 02:29
oiaohmSo use mono instead.Jul 11 02:30
blankthemuffinlolJul 11 02:30
blankthemuffinNot quite, I used to use amarok, and it is more powerful than banshee. But the latest version has a terrible UI.Jul 11 02:31
_Hicham_mono is growing rapidlyJul 11 02:31
_Hicham_it is in heavy developmentJul 11 02:31
_Hicham_plus, openSUSE is a great distroJul 11 02:32
_Hicham_openSUSE still has its weight in Linux ecosystemJul 11 02:32
oiaohmamarok is not the only kde media player.Jul 11 02:32
_Hicham_banshee  is not only gnome media playerJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_there is exaileJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_amarokJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_rhythmboxJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_songbirdJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_oiaohm media playerJul 11 02:33
_Hicham_and so onJul 11 02:33
blankthemuffinAmarok was the best media player. 1.4 was great, apart from its perks.Jul 11 02:34
oiaohmamarok has always been one of these things  either people like its interface or they hate it.Jul 11 02:34
blankthemuffinI hated its interface, it was annoying in 1.4, it's unusable in 2. It was still great though.Jul 11 02:35
oiaohmOut of KDE media players the most common one I use is Juk.Jul 11 02:36
oiaohmLight weight and all I need to do is play music.Jul 11 02:36
*amarsh04 still uses xmms 1.2Jul 11 02:36
blankthemuffinHopefully the banshee devs get gap-less playback in soon. That'd be nice.Jul 11 02:37
ThistleWebI'm not sure gnome peeps refuse to use kde apps and vice versa, in my GTK environment I prefer all GTK apps if possible because QT look like a drag queen at a beauty contest. The theme dont change etcJul 11 02:37
ThistleWebthe mono apps like banshee at least fit with the GTK theme so they look nativeJul 11 02:37
blankthemuffinwell they do use gtk.Jul 11 02:37
oiaohmKDE users have no trouble with GTK applications.Jul 11 02:37
blankthemuffinso it's hard for them not to. :PJul 11 02:38
ThistleWebchances are you're running dependencies like either mono or some kde libs so there's no real difference in speed etcJul 11 02:38
ThistleWebso it comes down to whether you want apps to blend in or stand outJul 11 02:38
oiaohmWe have gtk-qt engine that makes GTK applications theme into KDE.Jul 11 02:38
oiaohmEven replacing the default file dialogs with KDE ones.Jul 11 02:38
ThistleWebthere needs to be more work on that, the other way round tooJul 11 02:39
oiaohmWhen it comes to intergration kde is ahead.Jul 11 02:39
blankthemuffinoiaohm, like I said, I've got no real problems with KDE, apart from my opinion that it looks like ass. I used to use a few kde apps, but I don't really feel the need to. None of them really compel me.Jul 11 02:39
ThistleWebthere is a qt4 settings which kinda lets you theme themJul 11 02:39
oiaohmTheming is a bug bear that should be stored out.Jul 11 02:40
_Hicham_look, both DE have their cons and prosJul 11 02:40
_Hicham_but everything is standardized thanks to freedesktop.orgJul 11 02:40
_Hicham_it is not a problem to use kde apps inside gnomeJul 11 02:40
oiaohmKDE users normally do use a Mix of GTK and QT happly.Jul 11 02:40
ThistleWebkde did make a point of integration yes, but the vast majority of the DE "conflicts" are done by fanbois on both sides, the devs on both sides have long been equals working together where possible to make it a better experience for allJul 11 02:41
_Hicham_and vice versaJul 11 02:41
_Hicham_u need gtk apps inside kdeJul 11 02:41
blankthemuffinmaybe that's just because there's less good kde apps so they have to use gnome ones oiaohm. :PJul 11 02:41
oiaohmNo blankthemuffinJul 11 02:41
oiaohmKDE users are not stupid.Jul 11 02:41
_Hicham_while u don't need kde apps in gnomeJul 11 02:41
blankthemuffinThat was a joke oiaohm.Jul 11 02:41
_Hicham_in kde, u will need firefoxJul 11 02:42
oiaohmNo project can hope to have the best of the best all the time.Jul 11 02:42
ThistleWebI use smplayer, skype, vlc, opera which are all qt appsJul 11 02:42
blankthemuffinI don't see how any of this is relevant anyway.Jul 11 02:42
oiaohmThat is exactly what gnome tries to do.Jul 11 02:42
ThistleWebI'd prefer there were gtk front ends for all of themJul 11 02:42
ThistleWebbut there's notJul 11 02:42
oiaohmWith the logic we only need one runtime.Jul 11 02:42
blankthemuffinOh you are right ThistleWeb, I forgot about skype and vlc.Jul 11 02:42
oiaohmSoftware world is not this way.Jul 11 02:43
ThistleWebyep, skype on a gtk desktop looks horribleJul 11 02:43
_Hicham_I stopped using vlc because they switched to qtJul 11 02:43
oiaohmDevelopers should expect users to be using a mix of GTK and QTJul 11 02:43
_Hicham_I use GNOME MPlayerJul 11 02:43
ThistleWebvlc aint too badJul 11 02:43
blankthemuffinThistleWeb, skype on linux is pretty crappy anyway.Jul 11 02:43
oiaohmAnd working out ways of making them theme well.Jul 11 02:43
oiaohmKDE developers went out of there way with gtk-qt engine.Jul 11 02:44
ThistleWebin most cases peeps can have an all gtk or all qt stack to suit their needs, with the odd exceptionJul 11 02:44
blankthemuffinYou seem to be very into telling developers what they should be doing oiaohm.Jul 11 02:44
oiaohmHow else can the deliever a good interface to there user for everything they want to run blankthemuffin.Jul 11 02:44
ThistleWebeven a blend (in either direction) does not affect the functioning of any app, it's only the aesthetics that it looks out of placeJul 11 02:44
_Hicham_plus, GNOME is GNUJul 11 02:44
_Hicham_the GNU project recommends GNOME/GTKJul 11 02:45
blankthemuffinoiaohm, well I write gnome apps, maybe I'm a selfish prick but I don't really care about KDE since I don't use it, and I don't like QT.Jul 11 02:45
oiaohmGNU project does not care as much since both KDE and Gnome are LGPL top to bottom.Jul 11 02:45
ThistleWebI forgot scribus too, that's qtJul 11 02:45
oiaohmThese days.Jul 11 02:45
oiaohmGNU project only cared when QT had restrictive licencing.Jul 11 02:46
neighborleeexactlyJul 11 02:46
_Hicham_the GTK model is way flexibleJul 11 02:46
_Hicham_I never liked QtJul 11 02:46
_Hicham_either its uiJul 11 02:46
_Hicham_or its APIJul 11 02:46
ThistleWebI've grown into a GTK fan but I like where QT4 is goingJul 11 02:47
oiaohmMain reason for the KDE 4.0 smash up was addressing that flexiblity issue.Jul 11 02:47
blankthemuffinI like GTK 3 ThistleWeb. :D gnome-shell looks cool.Jul 11 02:47
_Hicham_plus, u can't program in pure C using QtJul 11 02:47
neighborleeI used gnome tilll kde went lgpl,,now I use kde exclusively because I prefer its non dumbing down of thingsJul 11 02:47
neighborleelinus was right imhoJul 11 02:48
_Hicham_linus went back to gnomeJul 11 02:48
oiaohmC vs C++ is about the difference left between gnome and kde from techJul 11 02:48
ThistleWebFOSS is about choice, fighting about stuff like DE's or WM's is pointless, it's all FOSSJul 11 02:48
ThistleWebit's all LinuxJul 11 02:48
oiaohmLinus flip flops _Hicham_Jul 11 02:48
neighborlee_Hicham_, urlJul 11 02:48
blankthemuffinindeed ThistleWebJul 11 02:49
neighborleeits n ot all foss guys dont be ridiculousJul 11 02:49
ThistleWebit dont matter what your preference isJul 11 02:49
neighborleesome de's know when to reject certain things, it seems some dontJul 11 02:49
_Hicham_ 11 02:49
oiaohmAnd he will most likely ditch gnome again.Jul 11 02:49
blankthemuffinI also don't see the point of what linus is using for example, who gives a crap what he uses.Jul 11 02:50
oiaohmKde 4 was a dog.Jul 11 02:50
_Hicham_there is a lot of GTK DEJul 11 02:50
ThistleWebsome integrate some non-free stuff in different waysJul 11 02:50
_Hicham_while there is only KDE which is based on QT, correct me if I am wrongJul 11 02:50
ThistleWebeach distro is different too in that regardJul 11 02:50
ThistleWebas far as I know, kde is the only qt environmentJul 11 02:51
_Hicham_linus chooses what suits his needsJul 11 02:51
ThistleWebI've never seen any others anywayJul 11 02:51
oiaohmThere are not that many things classed as desktops.Jul 11 02:51
blankthemuffinKDE SUCKS - Linus doesn't use it anymore. Stop using it now.Jul 11 02:51
oiaohmThere are qt windows managers.Jul 11 02:51
oiaohmOutside kde.Jul 11 02:51
ThistleWebreally?Jul 11 02:51
_Hicham_oiaohm : examples plzJul 11 02:51
ThistleWebwhich onesJul 11 02:51
neighborleeditching over right click menu access...interesting....;)Jul 11 02:52
blankthemuffinThe answer is to use xfce.Jul 11 02:52
oiaohm  In desktops there are stacks of different ones done in different toolkits.Jul 11 02:52
oiaohmYes GTK does have numbers.Jul 11 02:53
neighborleexfce is way too old schoolJul 11 02:53
blankthemuffinxfce is really nice, especially on old hardware. I wouldn't mind some more functionality though.Jul 11 02:53
neighborleeyesJul 11 02:53
_Hicham_this discussion is pointlessJul 11 02:54
_Hicham_both KDE and GNOME are greatJul 11 02:54
_Hicham_we don't want another windowsJul 11 02:55
_Hicham_a single DE means a monopolyJul 11 02:55
_Hicham_we don't want monopolies anymoreJul 11 02:55
_Hicham_that is lifeJul 11 02:55
_Hicham_difference is what makes us liveJul 11 02:55
_Hicham_and competeJul 11 02:56
oiaohmSince QT change to more open LGPL we will see more things based on it.Jul 11 02:56
ThistleWebyep, the debate over distros or DE's is all just infightingJul 11 02:56
blankthemuffinAND WINJul 11 02:56
ThistleWebchoice is goodJul 11 02:56
oiaohmThe focus need to be on sorting out themingJul 11 02:56
oiaohmand not caring about the toolkit.Jul 11 02:57
neighborleeit does not mean a depends on the structure of said organization lets not be silly here ;)Jul 11 02:57
neighborleeoiaohm, totally agree we willlJul 11 02:57
blankthemuffinMaking the theme systems identical would basically mean using a single environment though.Jul 11 02:58
oiaohmNo it does not blankthemuffinJul 11 02:58
ThistleWebthere are wasy to get it closeJul 11 02:58
ThistleWebclose enough to look nativeJul 11 02:58
ThistleWebwhich is all that mattersJul 11 02:58
blankthemuffinOh yeah, I mean you could easily do a gtk-qt kinda thing.Jul 11 02:59
oiaohmTheming close off is all that is needed for most users.Jul 11 02:59
ThistleWebqt4 settings does part of the difference, but the open file dialog box is still the KDE one with gtk iconsJul 11 02:59
ThistleWebgtk(ish) iconsJul 11 02:59
oiaohmThere is not a mirror of qt-gtk for gnome and other gtk based.Jul 11 02:59
blankthemuffinMake one then :PJul 11 02:59
ThistleWebit'll get better with time, for a start of both projects there was no co-operation, there has been for a while nowJul 11 03:00
ThistleWebbetter for both sidesJul 11 03:00
oiaohmYep it too major talking to the lead developers of both project to get them to use a common menu system.Jul 11 03:01
oiaohmIdea back then was Gnome would kill KDE or KDE would kill gnome.Jul 11 03:01
oiaohmSo compadiblity was not a benifit to either.Jul 11 03:01
ThistleWebthe choice of theme also helps / hinders it too. Clearlooks is a good one for matching upJul 11 03:01
blankthemuffinsounds a bit like windows and linux having a common development environment eh.Jul 11 03:02
oiaohmWe have got so far.Jul 11 03:02
oiaohmWorse blankthemuffinJul 11 03:02
oiaohmKDE developers are working on an common developer environment for Linux windows and Mac OS.Jul 11 03:02
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_Hicham_greatJul 11 03:03
ThistleWebyeah, QT does seem to be very cross platformJul 11 03:03
nenolodok, i don't get your site.  is it some sort of joke?Jul 11 03:03
_Hicham_kde for windows will speed up developmentJul 11 03:03
ThistleWebnot just computing either but mobile stuff tooJul 11 03:03
blankthemuffinAll the gui toolkits are pretty well cross platform, if you ignore the crappy ones like winforms. gtk, qt, wxwidgets.Jul 11 03:04
nenolodblankthemuffin: so what exactly does that leave?Jul 11 03:05
blankthemuffinthere is a full stop after winforms. the others are examples of good toolkits ( in a cross platform sense )Jul 11 03:05
oiaohmwxwidgets almost always looks out of place.Jul 11 03:06
oiaohmNo matter the platform its on.Jul 11 03:06
oiaohmQT themes is quite well with Windows OS X and KDE.Jul 11 03:06
oiaohmHas issues with GTK.Jul 11 03:06
nenolodok, wellJul 11 03:07
nenolodi have a questionJul 11 03:07
nenolodmaybe it is a really stupid questionJul 11 03:07
nenolodbutJul 11 03:07
nenolodis boycottnovell some sort of joke?  without novell/suse, you wouldn't have ALSA, for instance.  so i think you guys are cutting off your noses to spite your face?Jul 11 03:08
nenolodthat said, i avoid anything that uses RPM alreadyJul 11 03:08
ThistleWebnenolod: have you read any articles on the site?Jul 11 03:08
nenolod all of this is bullshitJul 11 03:09
nenolodi'm sure all of the other articles lack the same journalistic integrityJul 11 03:09
nenolodthey acquired a company, sure, but the code is GPL.  it can just be forked if there is a problem.Jul 11 03:10
neighborleenenolod, Thats really interesting, coming from someone with your sentence structures ;)Jul 11 03:10
nenolodno, really.  i don't know if this is a troll or not.Jul 11 03:11
nenolodevery article i have read thus far reads like a troll.Jul 11 03:11
neighborleelolJul 11 03:11
blankthemuffinneighborlee, criticising somebodies English instead of their points makes you look like an idiot.Jul 11 03:11
ThistleWebin other words it tells you a different version of events from the rest of the media?Jul 11 03:11
neighborleenenolod, if it bothers you that much and you want to try to  make a difference in the world..create your own site and start hacking away..or feel free to make comments on BN  I guessJul 11 03:11
neighborleeblankthemuffin, I wasn't critizing his english..but jumping to that conclusion is really in bad tasteJul 11 03:12
nenolodthe entire site is in bad tasteJul 11 03:12
neighborleenenolod, then fine hack awayJul 11 03:12
neighborleeits a free worldJul 11 03:12
ThistleWebnotice that BN includes links to the pages quoted, and put the full text so you can see if the quote is being taken out of contextJul 11 03:12
blankthemuffinI just read "coming from someone with your sentence structures"Jul 11 03:12
neighborleenenolod, and you are in bad taste.Jul 11 03:13
nenolodas an open source developer, i find the site offensive, as novell does contribute a lot of work back to us.Jul 11 03:13
nenolodas stated above, do you enjoy sound on linux?Jul 11 03:13
neighborleenow your just being silllyJul 11 03:13
nenolodno i'm not.  without the work of suse, ALSA would not have been successful.Jul 11 03:14
ThistleWebor it'd be done by someone elseJul 11 03:14
nenolodi mean, do you guys even think?  or are you biased against novell based on political moves they have madeJul 11 03:14
nenolodThistleWeb: it does not matter, the fact is, they did the work, and they deserve to at least be treated with respect as a resultJul 11 03:15
nenolodif you guys are boycotting novell, you should stop using ALSA, glibc, gcc, and X windows.Jul 11 03:15
nenolodi am not kiddingJul 11 03:15
ThistleWebsome stuff they've done is goodJul 11 03:16
nenolodput your money where your mouth isJul 11 03:16
ThistleWebtheir political choices are notJul 11 03:16
nenolodor stop blogging crap which ultimately hurts the open source movementJul 11 03:16
ThistleWebtheir pact with MS is notJul 11 03:16
blankthemuffinSome stuff which microsoft have done is good.Jul 11 03:16
nenolodi don't care about their pact with MSJul 11 03:16
blankthemuffinbelieve it or notJul 11 03:16
ThistleWebof course you dontJul 11 03:16
neighborleeobviouslyJul 11 03:16
nenolodas i saidJul 11 03:16
nenolodif you guys are boycotting novell, you should stop using ALSA, glibc, gcc, and X windows.Jul 11 03:16
ThistleWebnovell are used as attack dogsJul 11 03:16
ThistleWebthey are another proxy for MSJul 11 03:17
nenolodhow many of you use X?Jul 11 03:17
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ThistleWebnovell have handcuffed themselves to the MS TitanicJul 11 03:18
Diablo-D3hey schestowitz, did you hear that miguel commented on my blog?Jul 11 03:18
ThistleWebthey may have done good stuff in the past, but they are not much more than a department of MS nowJul 11 03:19
_Hicham_url?Jul 11 03:19
nenolodThistleWeb: i'm not disagreeing, but i find this site to be in bad taste, and generally counter productiveJul 11 03:19
neighborleeThistleWeb, I doubt its going to matter what we say..his?her mind is made up it seems.... and we are all traitorsJul 11 03:19
Diablo-D3 11 03:19
_Hicham_Novell is still NovellJul 11 03:19
Diablo-D3scroll down for the commentsJul 11 03:19
nenolodneighborlee: traitors, no.  masturbating to richard stallman's words too much? probably.Jul 11 03:19
ThistleWebto who? Novell? Microsoft? I agree, they like keeping their secret (and often illegal) deals secretJul 11 03:20
ThistleWebanyone who exposes them will be seen as traitors to the causeJul 11 03:20
*nenolod dislikes the Novell<->Microsoft deal just as much as anyone else for the recordJul 11 03:20
nenolodThistleWeb: no, my issue is that schestowitz is irresponsibleJul 11 03:20
_Hicham_Novell is still a great contributor to LinuxJul 11 03:20
nenolodhe blogs utter bullshit likeJul 11 03:20
ThistleWeba deal which harms the entire linux communityJul 11 03:21
neighborleenenolod, ok that was just gross, but hey whatever  trips your triggerJul 11 03:21
nenolodXen is doomed because Microsoft/Citrix bought out XenSource.Jul 11 03:21
nenolodthat "analysis" is false.Jul 11 03:21
nenolodthere are similar analyses that are also false.Jul 11 03:21
ThistleWebwhen MS make their claims about patent infringement which are (to most peeps) completely made up, the one company who decided to sign a pact was Novell, giving them legitimacy they never hadJul 11 03:22
_Hicham_Microsoft may go open source tooJul 11 03:22
nenolodXenServer is so much unlike open source Xen it is not funny.  Most of it is written in OCaml.Jul 11 03:22
Diablo-D3yeah but nenolod, microsoft only created c# to compete with javaJul 11 03:22
Diablo-D3java is clearly the superior solution of the twoJul 11 03:22
blankthemuffinwhat java apps do you use Diablo-D3?Jul 11 03:22
nenolodDiablo-D3: i don't really care about java or C#Jul 11 03:22
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: I'm coding in it.Jul 11 03:22
Diablo-D3I gave up trying to use c#, its a piece of shitJul 11 03:22
nenolodi keep noting that people don't wish to argue my pointsJul 11 03:23
nenolodand only like to argue when i say words like 'bullshit', calling them grossJul 11 03:23
Diablo-D3nenolod: microsoft wants to kill everythingJul 11 03:23
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blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, how so, and I code in both, the only java app I use is netbeans, the mono apps I use are tomboy, f-spot, gnome-do, banshee, monodevelop.Jul 11 03:24
Diablo-D3there really isnt something to argueJul 11 03:24
nenolodthe truth is ugly, and people are irresponsible hereJul 11 03:24
ThistleWebthe 2 commercial linux vendors, novell sold out and did what was good for novell, while RH didnt'. RH did what was good for RH AND the linux community at largeJul 11 03:24
nenolodummJul 11 03:24
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: I do not have mono installed, I dont want that shit installed on my machineJul 11 03:24
nenolodthere's more than 2 commercial linux vendorsJul 11 03:24
ThistleWebcommercial distro vendorsJul 11 03:24
nenolodRH has made it's own share of sins tooJul 11 03:24
neighborleenenolod, im so sorry our freedom to choose is so against your very existence...unlike the choice others have in what comes installed by defaultJul 11 03:24
ThistleWebRH is not perfectJul 11 03:24
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, that's your choice, but has nothing to do with anything really.Jul 11 03:25
nenolodneighborlee: you do not have the freedom to write libelous content.Jul 11 03:25
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, your baseless fear has nothing to do with java apps vs mono apps.Jul 11 03:25
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: why would I want to use slow memory hungry badly written apps?Jul 11 03:25
Diablo-D3I mean, really, why would I?Jul 11 03:25
neighborleeexactlyJul 11 03:25
Diablo-D3if I wanted to run windows, I'd run windowsJul 11 03:25
neighborleeLOLJul 11 03:25
_Hicham_no company is perfectJul 11 03:26
_Hicham_apart MSJul 11 03:26
Diablo-D3no, microsoft really is perfectJul 11 03:26
nenolodneighborlee: my issue is that some of these articles are libelous.  especially the one about how Xen is doomed because Citrix bought the original company.Jul 11 03:26
ThistleWeblook at it this way, BN has a whole catalog of accusations against both MS and Novell, both are currently very rich, yet Roy does not appear to be fighting any lawauits for libelJul 11 03:26
Diablo-D3they managed to make the worst software in existance, and sell it to everyoneJul 11 03:26
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, you realise that java uses way more memory than mono right?Jul 11 03:26
_Hicham_MS is the perfect company of all timesJul 11 03:26
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: not in my experience.Jul 11 03:26
blankthemuffinand they're on par speed wise Diablo-D3.Jul 11 03:26
_Hicham_in all industriesJul 11 03:26
neighborleenenolod, well roy isn't here atm..feel free to comment on that article as well if you wishJul 11 03:26
Diablo-D3mono 2.4 seems to be about half the speed doing the same tasks.Jul 11 03:26
_Hicham_mono has a java vmJul 11 03:26
_Hicham_ikvmJul 11 03:27
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: its not a java vmJul 11 03:27
_Hicham_it is a java vmJul 11 03:27
ThistleWebthat suggests that they'd rather not fight BN legally because it'd cost them money to lose and have his accusations brought to a wider audienceJul 11 03:27
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, please, I'd like to see your benchmarks.Jul 11 03:27
_Hicham_ikvmJul 11 03:27
Diablo-D3_Hicham_: no, it creates .net bytecodeJul 11 03:27 is still the vmJul 11 03:27
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: see shootout among othersJul 11 03:27
nenolodDiablo-D3 is actually right there.Jul 11 03:27
ThistleWebminor technical point but MS have never sold softwareJul 11 03:27
_Hicham_Diablo-DE : it create bytecode, so it is a vm, right?Jul 11 03:28
ThistleWebthey've sold software licencesJul 11 03:28
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, shootout shows them on par speed wise, and mono winning memory wise.Jul 11 03:28
blankthemuffinnot to mention language benchmarks are stupid.Jul 11 03:28
blankthemuffinMy quick metric, netbeans just took 27 seconds to start. monodevelop just took 5 seconds.Jul 11 03:29
_Hicham_Language Benchmarks : VB.NET is the quickest language runtimeJul 11 03:29
_Hicham_of all languagesJul 11 03:29
blankthemuffinnetbeans is using 125MB of ram, MonoDevelop is using 40MBJul 11 03:30
blankthemuffin125MB of ram, what the hell, I havn't even opened anything yet.Jul 11 03:30
ThistleWebthat's the richer aroma of the beans ;)Jul 11 03:30
nenolodThistleWeb: i hate MS just as much as the next person, and i don't agree with a lot of what novell does, but when you're talking about stuff that i use in production and it's FUD, then I find it offensive.Jul 11 03:30
_Hicham_so mono is betterJul 11 03:30
_Hicham_vive mono and de icazaJul 11 03:30
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_Hicham_they are bringing the best to linuxJul 11 03:30
ThistleWebnenolod: then feel free to be offendedJul 11 03:30
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaJul 11 03:31
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaJul 11 03:31
blankthemuffinI never said that. _Hicham_ I'm just saying that when you compare it to java, please get your statistics somewhere near right.Jul 11 03:31
nenolodThistleWeb: well, there is no reason for BN to offend people, when better journalism methods could be appliedJul 11 03:32
_Hicham_blankthemuffin: there isn't any rigourous language metrics yetJul 11 03:32
ThistleWebnenolod: tell that to the armies of shills parrotting MS propaganda and quoting different sources which are all MS shillsJul 11 03:32
nenolodThistleWeb: "shill" is a dangerous wordJul 11 03:33
_Hicham_de Icaza is a great personJul 11 03:33
_Hicham_he created GNOMEJul 11 03:33
blankthemuffinThere is no such thing as a rigorous language benchmark. Comparing two languages is utterly retarded unless you have a specific objective in mind.Jul 11 03:33
ThistleWebthe lack of any journalistic integrity in the mainstream media means there is a gap for sites like BNJul 11 03:33
_Hicham_and now he is recreating itJul 11 03:33
_Hicham_he says that GNOME is his babyJul 11 03:33
nenolodThistleWeb: it is very easy to become biased when you use words like "shill", because using ad-hominem attacks against people with a disagreeing view is a typical propaganda techniqueJul 11 03:34
ThistleWeball the stories about Chrome OS are filled with quotes from MS employees with different company name badgesJul 11 03:34
nenolodso calling people BN disagrees with "shills" is no betterJul 11 03:34
Diablo-D3[10:47:44] <blankthemuffin> My quick metric, netbeans just took 27 seconds to start. monodevelop just took 5 seconds.Jul 11 03:34
Diablo-D3yeah, but who uses netbeans?Jul 11 03:34
blankthemuffinNetbeans was faster than eclipse last time I used them both.Jul 11 03:34
*nenolod uses xemacsJul 11 03:35
Diablo-D3I use eclipse, it starts in about 5 seconds.Jul 11 03:35
neighborlee_Hicham_, and as kde gains steam, it might remain HIS ;))Jul 11 03:35
Diablo-D3last time I noticed, monodevelop couldn't use hg yetJul 11 03:35
Diablo-D3eclipse canJul 11 03:35
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nenolod_Hicham_: hopefully he recreates GNOME in a way that doesn't make me wish i owned a macintoshJul 11 03:36
fewa"Chrome OS" is vapor-wareJul 11 03:36
fewait doesnt existJul 11 03:36
ThistleWebthe way I see MS is that they are the abusive hubby, who#s battered the shit out of his wife time and time again, while Novell are the concerned friend trying to convince the wife to take him back and that he's really changedJul 11 03:36
Diablo-D3fewa: thats not entirely true at allJul 11 03:36
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Diablo-D3fewa: it runs great in virtualbox, btwJul 11 03:36
fewaDiablo-D3, where can i download it?Jul 11 03:37
Diablo-D3you cant.Jul 11 03:37
nenolod(is there any good desktop environment on unix anymore? GNOME 2.26.1 makes me sad.)Jul 11 03:37
fewaDiablo-D3, so you admit you work at googleJul 11 03:37
Diablo-D3nope, I admit to having good friends who work at googleJul 11 03:37
fewaits suppose to be based on Chromium on LinuxJul 11 03:37
nenolodit uses weyland + chromium fwiwJul 11 03:38
Diablo-D3its a linux kernel with an androidy userland and uses weylandJul 11 03:38
fewayuckJul 11 03:38
nenolodweyland is a novell product too haha.Jul 11 03:38
Diablo-D3weyland is more of a redhat product, actuallyJul 11 03:38
nenolodeh, i thought it was keithpJul 11 03:38
fewada google doesnt find "weyland"Jul 11 03:39
Diablo-D3I dont think he started itJul 11 03:39
_Hicham_vive the worldJul 11 03:39
Diablo-D3though its obviously inspired by keithp's micro X server he had a couple years backJul 11 03:40
nenolodoopsJul 11 03:40
nenolodwaylandJul 11 03:40
nenolod 11 03:40
nenolodthis.Jul 11 03:40
Diablo-D3its spelled with an a? dohJul 11 03:40
Diablo-D3at any rate, its very tied into DRI2 and other fdo projectsJul 11 03:41
nenolodah yeah it's krhJul 11 03:41
nenolodso redhatJul 11 03:41
fewamah, wayland doesnt seem that badJul 11 03:41
Diablo-D3wayland is sorta like quartz for linuxJul 11 03:41
nenolodanything is better than XJul 11 03:41
fewabut its XJul 11 03:41
Diablo-D3full hardware acceleration up and down the pipelineJul 11 03:41
fewaso then it isnt quartzJul 11 03:41
Diablo-D3fewa: not reallyJul 11 03:41
nenolodfewa: wayland isn't XJul 11 03:41
_Hicham_vive KMSJul 11 03:41
_Hicham_does anyone of u have KMS enabled?Jul 11 03:42
Diablo-D3its a display serverJul 11 03:42
fewaso GTK and qt is ported?Jul 11 03:42
Diablo-D3but it doesnt use the X11 protocolJul 11 03:42
nenolodfewa: the eventual plan is to port themJul 11 03:42
Diablo-D3fewa: gtk and qt already use cairoJul 11 03:42
_Hicham_if u ever have KMS enabled, u will know what real graphics areJul 11 03:42
Diablo-D3so they 90% work alreadyJul 11 03:42
fewaahh cairo is portedJul 11 03:42
Diablo-D3cairo already has a native wayland outputJul 11 03:42
fewadoes it have its own protocol?Jul 11 03:43
nenolodno it works on magical fairy dust, not unlike what the authors of BN snort up before writing about things it does not understandJul 11 03:44
blankthemuffin lol Diablo-D3, nice article, good discussion of the various reasons you don't like .netJul 11 03:47
Diablo-D3nenolod: bn isnt so badJul 11 03:48
Diablo-D3the problem with bn is roy ascribes maliciousness on the part of microsoftJul 11 03:48
nenolodno, but it gets a little out thereJul 11 03:48
nenolodit's likeJul 11 03:48
Diablo-D3microsoft is simply incompetentJul 11 03:49
nenolodinfowars.comJul 11 03:49
blankthemuffinThey're like you Diablo-D3, they like to reference themselves and write with lots of emotion and very little substance.Jul 11 03:49
nenolodof the opensource worldJul 11 03:49
*nenolod thinks bn is like the of the opensource world, honestlyJul 11 03:49
nenolodlolsJul 11 03:49
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: dude, you use slicehost, your opinion means shitJul 11 03:49
_Hicham_Diablo-D3 : schestowitz didn't like this article I thinkJul 11 03:49
nenolodintentions are good, but it gets a bit out thereJul 11 03:49
Diablo-D3nenolod: all I want is a language that doesnt backstab me down the roadJul 11 03:50
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, interesting point.Jul 11 03:50
nenolodDiablo-D3: C, C++ and python treat me nicelyJul 11 03:50
nenolodDiablo-D3: maybe it's a competence issueJul 11 03:50
Diablo-D3nenolod: with C, I got tired of repeating myselfJul 11 03:50
nenolodDiablo-D3: maybe it's a competence issueJul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3I honestly shouldn't have to manage memory myself anymore.Jul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3I've done it for 15 years, I deserve a programming language that does the boring tasks for me so I can just go code.Jul 11 03:51
nenolodso don't?Jul 11 03:51
nenoloduse boehm gcJul 11 03:51
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, you have to manage memory yourself in managed languages too, you just have a different set of problems to solve.Jul 11 03:51
nenolod?Jul 11 03:51
nenolodlolJul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3hoehm gc is kinda outdatedJul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3*boehmJul 11 03:51
blankthemuffin"How can I make the GC do this" rather than "How can I do this"Jul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3I mean, it performs well, and it works greatJul 11 03:51
Diablo-D3but its not perfectJul 11 03:52
blankthemuffinit doesn't perform that well, and it has corner cases where is simply breaksJul 11 03:52
Diablo-D3and no, I'm not taking mono's usage of it into account: mono simply sucks dickJul 11 03:52
Diablo-D3mono is the only framework I know of who has consistently fucked up boehm and caused it to leakJul 11 03:52
Diablo-D3I don't even know how you can say c# mono apps use less memory, blankthemuffinJul 11 03:53
nenolodthey do than javaJul 11 03:54
Diablo-D3MD starts at 75 megs for me, ran for three weeks, and was using over 500 by the time I quit c#Jul 11 03:54
nenolodbut there is a reason for thatJul 11 03:54
Diablo-D3so something was fucking leaking somewhereJul 11 03:54
nenolodmost java apps pre-import the entire frameworkJul 11 03:54
blankthemuffinDid you read the shootout benchmarks you referenced Diablo-D3?Jul 11 03:54
nenolodwhile most .NET apps do notJul 11 03:54
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: yes, I'm not interested in themJul 11 03:54
Diablo-D3the benchmarks do not tune memory usageJul 11 03:54
blankthemuffinthen why use them as the basis for your argument?Jul 11 03:54
Diablo-D3the results will not even be consistent across different machines due to thisJul 11 03:55
nenolodblankthemuffin: :DJul 11 03:55
nenolodblankthemuffin: i apologize on Diablo-D3's behalf.  he's "special"Jul 11 03:55
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: because I care about execution timeJul 11 03:55
blankthemuffinthen why use them as the basis for your argument?Jul 11 03:55
Diablo-D3which is what I cited them for.Jul 11 03:55
_Hicham_python will get better than javaJul 11 03:55
_Hicham_soonJul 11 03:55
blankthemuffinOh so you cherry pick the bits that you like Diablo-D3.Jul 11 03:56
_Hicham_with all the google investmentJul 11 03:56
blankthemuffinAnd leave the rest.Jul 11 03:56
nenolodblankthemuffin: he does that a lotJul 11 03:56
fewaI think alot of people already think its betterJul 11 03:56
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: no, at no point have I stated I care about memory usage in jvm 6.Jul 11 03:56
_Hicham_better use pythonJul 11 03:56
Diablo-D3You have some weird memory usage fetish, thats your problem.Jul 11 03:56
nenolodDiablo-D3: i do tooJul 11 03:56
_Hicham_python is a compact languageJul 11 03:56
blankthemuffinyou brought it up, not me Diablo-D3Jul 11 03:56
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: actually, you did earlier.Jul 11 03:56
nenolodDiablo-D3: i take offense to the fact that i need 16GB OF RAM TO MAKE GNOME FUNCTION NICELY.Jul 11 03:56
blankthemuffin<Diablo-D3> MD starts at 75 megs for me, ran for three weeks, and was using over 500 by the time I quit c#Jul 11 03:56
Diablo-D3[10:47:04] <blankthemuffin> Diablo-D3, shootout shows them on par speed wise, and mono winning memory wise.Jul 11 03:57
nenolodcan someone do something about GNOME and Mozilla's memory leaking insanity?  thanks.Jul 11 03:57
nenolodi'm about to boycott GNOMEJul 11 03:57
Diablo-D3nenolod: firefox doesnt leak memory, it just pools it and only frees part of the pool when theres too much freeJul 11 03:57
blankthemuffinFirefox eats ram like a bitchJul 11 03:58
Diablo-D33.5 is also much better at memory usageJul 11 03:58
Diablo-D33.5 also uses memory in comparison of how much you haveJul 11 03:58
_Hicham_what have free ram if not to use it?Jul 11 03:58
Diablo-D3it uses much less on memory starved systemsJul 11 03:58
fewafx3.5 is awesomeJul 11 03:58
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Diablo-D3I have 8gb of memory, firefox in no way can use even a significant portion of itJul 11 03:58
_Hicham_vive ff3.5Jul 11 03:58
fewa8GB tooJul 11 03:58
fewa8GB is awesomeJul 11 03:58
blankthemuffinnot the point _Hicham_, more ram usage does not mean more performance.Jul 11 03:59
nenolod             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cachedJul 11 03:59
nenolodMem:          7986       7078        908          0        591       3522Jul 11 03:59
nenolodthis is workstation 1Jul 11 03:59
Diablo-D3I have about 150 tabs open across a dozen windows, its currently using less than 600 megs of memoryJul 11 03:59
blankthemuffin             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cachedJul 11 03:59
blankthemuffinMem:          3023       2664        358          0        366       1481Jul 11 03:59
blankthemuffin-/+ buffers/cache:        816       2206Jul 11 03:59
blankthemuffinSwap:          972         19        953Jul 11 03:59
nenolodworkstation 2 has similar metricsJul 11 03:59
nenolodnenolod  24813  1.1  4.2 1183472 345376 ?      Sl   12:25   6:59 /usr/lib/iceweasel/firefox-bin -a iceweaselJul 11 03:59
nenolod1.2gb hereJul 11 03:59
nenolod18 tabs!Jul 11 03:59
Diablo-D3nenolod: what version?Jul 11 04:00
nenolodwhatever is in sidJul 11 04:00
fewathats 3.0Jul 11 04:00
Diablo-D33.5 isnt in sid yetJul 11 04:00
Diablo-D33.5 really improved some shitty memory management aspectsJul 11 04:00
nenolodDiablo-D3: i'm seriously -><- this close to buying a macJul 11 04:00
Diablo-D3but lets face it, its no 2.0Jul 11 04:00
oiaohmAlso that is not exactly true usage under Linux either.Jul 11 04:00
blankthemuffinI'd buy a mac if I had free money nenolod, they're pretty cool.Jul 11 04:00
fewanenolod, you mean try to fix your performance problems by overpaying for a underperforming machine?Jul 11 04:01
nenolodoiaohm: yeah, i understand that :pJul 11 04:01
Diablo-D32.x used about 2 gigs, 3.0.x used about 1Jul 11 04:01
Diablo-D3nenolod: btw, I already bought a macJul 11 04:01
Diablo-D3I used it for a yearJul 11 04:01
nenolodfewa: yes. that's the one thing that makes me say NOJul 11 04:01
Diablo-D3I wasnt impressedJul 11 04:01
nenolodmaybe i will succome to the MS overlordsJul 11 04:01
oiaohmMac single button mouse drives me nuts.Jul 11 04:01
blankthemuffinwhy don't you like slicehost btw Diablo-D3?Jul 11 04:01
nenolodbut linux desktop experience has been really hideous latelyJul 11 04:01
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: inferior to rapidxenJul 11 04:01
nenolodblankthemuffin: because he freeloads on my shit insteadJul 11 04:01
blankthemuffinhow so Diablo-D3?Jul 11 04:02
nenolodblankthemuffin: because he's paying $0 for itJul 11 04:02
oiaohmnenolod:  you are living through a major change.Jul 11 04:02
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: slicehost tends to kill VPSes of people they dont likeJul 11 04:02
oiaohmKMS DRI2 alteraions to how X11 works is upsetting things.Jul 11 04:02
nenolodoiaohm: a major change indeed, i haven't ever owned a windows PC and would like to keep it that wayJul 11 04:02
fewaDiablo-D3, I hate that with shared hostsJul 11 04:02
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, I'd like to see an example of that.Jul 11 04:02
oiaohmReal-time feature merges also upsetting things.Jul 11 04:02
fewaDiablo-D3, they sell "unlimited" then kill anyone that actually uses itJul 11 04:03
fewaIts unprofessional and misrepresentativeJul 11 04:03
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: 99chan was on a slicehost vps at one point, they killed itJul 11 04:03
blankthemuffinthankfully we're not talking about dreamhost style shared hosting fewa. :PJul 11 04:03
oiaohmnenolod: things should start settling back down at the end of these 12 months.Jul 11 04:03
Diablo-D3theres been a few others, including anti-bush blogs, but I forget which onesJul 11 04:03
blankthemuffinprobably because it broke the law Diablo-D3.Jul 11 04:03
Diablo-D3slicehost is not law enforcementJul 11 04:04
Diablo-D3trying to enforce the law is a breach of contractJul 11 04:04
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, slicehost however is subject to the law.Jul 11 04:04
fewanearlyfreespeech.netJul 11 04:04
blankthemuffinand their TOS clearly says don't do anything illegal in the US.Jul 11 04:04
fewagreat for low-bandwidth type sitesJul 11 04:04
Diablo-D3yes, they can report it to the appropriate authorities, and thats itJul 11 04:04
_Hicham_who is in here using fedora?Jul 11 04:04
blankthemuffinSince they host from the US they're going to have to deal with crappy us laws.Jul 11 04:04
oiaohmDiablo-D3: breach of contract means they can decide to no longer provide service.Jul 11 04:05
Diablo-D3oiaohm: it means they can decide to be sued.Jul 11 04:05
nenolodDiablo-D3: i can assure you that if you use the vps you are freeloading to break the law, i will shut you down.Jul 11 04:05
oiaohmLegally no Diablo-D3Jul 11 04:05
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, also note that rapidxen has the same terms in their TOSJul 11 04:05
blankthemuffinSeedboxes / Bittorrent / XDCC / etc: Forget it. While we make our best efforts to provide unmetered VPS solutions, RapidXen is not interested in facilitating copyright and legal violations.Jul 11 04:06
oiaohmyou agreed to the terms when you started hosting with them.  Diablo-D3Jul 11 04:06
nenolodblankthemuffin: yes, and i just enforced that point 2 lines above ;)Jul 11 04:06
blankthemuffinSpam / DDoS / Illegal Activity: If your intention is to use the RapidXen service to violate US law, disrupt our network and other networks, or send out unsolicited bulk email, then RapidXen is not for you.Jul 11 04:06
fewablankthemuffin, which crappy US laws?Jul 11 04:06
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: I think you're confused at how the law works, but thats okayJul 11 04:06
Diablo-D3most people are.Jul 11 04:06
oiaohmTerms of service are terms of service Diablo-D3Jul 11 04:06
fewablankthemuffin, the US has some good standings on freedom of speechJul 11 04:06
oiaohmBreach them no more service Diablo-D3Jul 11 04:07
blankthemuffinI don't live in the us, I don't give a shit how their law works Diablo-D3.Jul 11 04:07
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: uh-huh.Jul 11 04:07
oiaohmSome hosts say no porn.Jul 11 04:07
Diablo-D3oiaohm: yup, however simply stating "no illegal shit" is merely asking for trouble.Jul 11 04:07
nenolodblankthemuffin: slice of muffin?Jul 11 04:07
nenolodblankthemuffin: that's awesome.Jul 11 04:07
oiaohmNo its is not Diablo-D3.Jul 11 04:07
Diablo-D3nenolod: btw, blankthemuffin is a pro-C# trollJul 11 04:08
blankthemuffinI think he already knows Diablo-D3.Jul 11 04:08
oiaohmTechincally it gives the host lots of flexablity.  Diablo-D3Jul 11 04:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: only within the aspect of the lawJul 11 04:08
nenolodDiablo-D3: i don't really careJul 11 04:08
nenolodDiablo-D3: keep in mind, i've use the lowlevel mono vm in production for speeding up LSL evaluationJul 11 04:08
nenolodDiablo-D3: so i don't really mind monoJul 11 04:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: it doesnt give you the freedom to axe VPSes because you dont like their contentJul 11 04:08
oiaohmThe problem USA freespeech laws don't apply to TOS.Jul 11 04:09
fewaPeople should read's ToS/PP 11 04:09
blankthemuffinfewa, DMCA for one. Not that I think copyright infringement is good, but DMCA is insane.Jul 11 04:09
oiaohmReason they are not stoping you from doing freespeech.Jul 11 04:09
oiaohmJust choosing if you are allows to use there stage to do it or not.Jul 11 04:09
blankthemuffinWhy would you even have hosting in the us if you were going to be doing shady activities. Seems rather retarded.Jul 11 04:09
fewahaving ISP's violate net neutrality like verizon does hinders freedom of speechJul 11 04:10
Diablo-D3RX doesn't have a history of taking down VPSes from people they hate, Slicehost doesJul 11 04:10
Diablo-D3so clearly Slicehost is a bunch of fuckwits.Jul 11 04:10
oiaohmISP have never been netural.Jul 11 04:10
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, lots of emotion still, very little content.Jul 11 04:10
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: do I look like a news service to you?Jul 11 04:10
nenolodblankthemuffin: agree.Jul 11 04:10
oiaohmYou some how mixing up ISP for someone that has to give a rats about freespeech.Jul 11 04:10
fewaThe internet is suppose to be End-2-end, ISP's regularly try to impede on thisJul 11 04:11
nenolodblankthemuffin: plus he's infecting my company's image with his own bias.  i should go axe his VPS.  don't you agree?Jul 11 04:11
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not at all, they merely have to care about moneyJul 11 04:11
fewanenolod, how does it effect the views of the companyJul 11 04:11
blankthemuffinnenolod, I'd feel mean if I said yes.Jul 11 04:11
nenolodfewa: that was called 'trolling'Jul 11 04:11
Diablo-D3oiaohm: doing things that decrease potential future revenue is rather retarded.Jul 11 04:11
oiaohmdon't you remember compuserv.Jul 11 04:12
oiaohmDiablo-D3:Jul 11 04:12
oiaohmAt one point would only provide users with content of there choosing.Jul 11 04:12
nenolodyou know what would be greatJul 11 04:12
oiaohmAgain not a breach of freespeech.Jul 11 04:12
nenolodis if haiku would actually release somethingJul 11 04:12
nenoloddon't you all agree?Jul 11 04:13
oiaohmBecause you had the option to use others.Jul 11 04:13
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jul 11 04:13
fewaVerizon should be injuncted for pushing prior constraint on its users by blocking port 80 incomingJul 11 04:13
blankthemuffinfewa, here at least, it's a problem with regulation and the government not the ISPs themselves. There is a really good ISP in Australia which supports freedom of speech and a non-censored internet, but unfortunately they're working against idiot politicians.Jul 11 04:13
fewaand 25 outgoingJul 11 04:13
fewaits a violation on free speechJul 11 04:15
oiaohmLOLJul 11 04:15
fewaoiaohm, how is it not?Jul 11 04:16
oiaohmWhat has happened in this world people have stopped reading contracts.Jul 11 04:16
fewacontracts are suppose to be a mutual agreementJul 11 04:16
Diablo-D3worse yet, when did non-lawyers think they could write themJul 11 04:17
fewabut contracts these days have no such negotiationJul 11 04:17
oiaohmAnd expect to have everything even at cheeper rates because some features are removed.Jul 11 04:17
fewathey are form contractsJul 11 04:17
blankthemuffinworse yet, when did they become something non-lawyers can't read.Jul 11 04:17
Diablo-D3fewa: actually, they doJul 11 04:17
Diablo-D3I simply dont do business with themJul 11 04:17
Diablo-D3if a company has a history of being a bunch of dicks, I dont do business with themJul 11 04:17
oiaohmYou can choose to except or refuse a contract.Jul 11 04:18
oiaohmPeople have just giving up doing that.Jul 11 04:18
fewaDiablo-D3, thats a good policy, but assuming that anyone can put any sort of terms in a "contract" is just out of touch with realityJul 11 04:18
Diablo-D3fewa: actually, I have negotiated pricing terms with larger companies beforeJul 11 04:18
oiaohmYou almost can.Jul 11 04:18
Diablo-D3thats the more important part of a contractJul 11 04:18
fewaand that they can advertise something other than what the contract saysJul 11 04:18
oiaohmI have had port blocks changed before.Jul 11 04:18
oiaohmJust from simply point out what I would be doing.  And they were changed in the contract.Jul 11 04:19
oiaohmMost people don't even bother asking if the contract can be changed fewa.Jul 11 04:19
oiaohmThen complain when they are living with a restriction.Jul 11 04:20
fewaI think its a problem of transaction costsJul 11 04:20
oiaohmSorry don't read contract don't ask your problem.Jul 11 04:20
oiaohmPort 80 was blocked by a lot of ISPJul 11 04:20
oiaohm'sJul 11 04:20
oiaohmbecause people would configure there modems wrong.Jul 11 04:20
fewafunnyJul 11 04:21
oiaohmYep remote access port 80Jul 11 04:21
oiaohmadmin/admin passwordJul 11 04:21
oiaohmYep not good.Jul 11 04:21
oiaohmSome of the blocks are ass protection.Jul 11 04:21
fewawell that makes senseJul 11 04:21
oiaohmYet lot of cases if you ask the block can be removed.Jul 11 04:22
fewaive never ben behind thatJul 11 04:22
oiaohmSome charage a 15 dollar fee to confirm.Jul 11 04:22
oiaohmIe that you have everything configured right before they allow.Jul 11 04:22
oiaohmIts also like 25 out going.   Lot of worms at on point were connection to non isps systems on that.Jul 11 04:23
oiaohmSome of the restrictions are left over of older problems.Jul 11 04:24
fewawell port 25 outgoing is about spamJul 11 04:24
fewabut its easy to block incoming from dynamic IP rangesJul 11 04:25
fewablocking outgoing blocks speech, while blocking incoming is totally protected and understandableJul 11 04:25
oiaohmMost of the blocks are removable if you ask.Jul 11 04:29
fewawell okJul 11 04:29
oiaohmOr choose different contract.Jul 11 04:29
oiaohmWith them.Jul 11 04:29
oiaohmReason why its not freespeech issue.Jul 11 04:29
oiaohmTOS if you agree to it you have to put up with it.Jul 11 04:29
fewaoiaohm, not quiteJul 11 04:30
oiaohmIf you are on  long term contract.Jul 11 04:30
fewabut if they unblock, NPJul 11 04:31
oiaohmIf you agree to a long term TOS with a Contract and don't read it.  Its not there problem.Jul 11 04:31
oiaohmHopefully people will get smart enough to only do that stupidity once.Jul 11 04:32
fewaalot of people dont have the time to read form contractsJul 11 04:32
oiaohmContract law is quite blunt on that.Jul 11 04:34
oiaohmIf you don't read it and you sign for it.  It is your problem.Jul 11 04:34
fewacontract law says that a contract requires considerationJul 11 04:34
oiaohmIf you choose not to do consideration that is your selection.Jul 11 04:34
oiaohmPerson giving you contract can presume you have read it in advance.Jul 11 04:35
fewaoiaohm, most of these contracts are not even given by a personJul 11 04:35
oiaohmLaw does not demard a person.Jul 11 04:36
oiaohmTo give you contract.Jul 11 04:36
fewaoiaohm, it is rare that even the _other_ side has entered into consideration, except in a week aggregate formJul 11 04:36
oiaohmContract is your first offer.Jul 11 04:37
fewaoiaohm, but nobody made an offerJul 11 04:37
oiaohmIf you accept the first offer and don't ask what else consideration is not required.Jul 11 04:37
oiaohmThey did.Jul 11 04:37
oiaohmIn a form of a contract.   Most people these days don't bounce contracts.Jul 11 04:38
oiaohmSo don't ever enter the consideration stage.Jul 11 04:38
oiaohmfewa:  normally between businesses contracts bounce backwards and forwards many times before the final one is signed.Jul 11 04:40
fewaoiaohm, what is the monetary value of those contracts?Jul 11 04:40
oiaohmVariable.Jul 11 04:41
fewaoiaohm, but what is the general value?Jul 11 04:41
fewatypical sums of money?Jul 11 04:42
oiaohmCan can be a simple as a ISP connection with static IP point to point linked that is about 100 dollars.Jul 11 04:42
oiaohmPer month.Jul 11 04:42
oiaohmNote point to point linked has no internet.Jul 11 04:42
fewaPerhaps people need to be better informed of the information they need to negotiateJul 11 04:42
oiaohmThat is the true problem.Jul 11 04:43
fewaWe need to take into account Stiglitz's theory of asymmetric informationJul 11 04:43
oiaohmIf you don't ask you will never get.Jul 11 04:43
fewabut what questions can these people ask who know nothing about what they are buying?Jul 11 04:44
fewaThis is why truth in advertising is so importantJul 11 04:44
oiaohmI back truth in advertising.Jul 11 04:44
oiaohmPart of it is education.Jul 11 04:45
fewaaccess to imformationJul 11 04:45
fewa*informationJul 11 04:45
oiaohmPeople know more about cars then they know about ISP connection options.Jul 11 04:45
oiaohmAnd most people don't know much about cars.Jul 11 04:45
fewa"education" implies indoctrinationJul 11 04:45
oiaohmNot really.Jul 11 04:46
fewai guess notJul 11 04:46
fewabut i see access to imformation as more important than formal educationJul 11 04:46
oiaohmformal education is a different thing.Jul 11 04:46
oiaohmEveryone gets taught stuff threw different channels.Jul 11 04:47
oiaohmEducation could come in the form of mags, tv or internet.Jul 11 04:47
fewaoiaohm, most education people get comes from other peopleJul 11 04:48
oiaohmFormal education has the bad habit of restricting free thinking.Jul 11 04:48
fewamags and tv are more noiseJul 11 04:48
fewaother people has a better model of trustJul 11 04:49
oiaohmLot of places formal education skips over teaching contract law.Jul 11 04:49
oiaohmThink you will be working almost all your life with contracts is very stupid not to be included.Jul 11 04:49
twitterbroadcast and most publications are noiseJul 11 04:49
fewatwitter, RO mediaJul 11 04:50
fewatwitter, if there is no input, how can anyone expect a real output?Jul 11 04:50
oiaohmBasically we have a case of educated stupidity.Jul 11 04:50
twitterYou should trust your peers and people without affiliations to the likes of GE, Westinghouse, M$, GM and so on.Jul 11 04:50
*ugufjhfj has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jul 11 04:50
oiaohmReading was always in the three R long time ago so people could understand what they are signing.Jul 11 04:51
fewathen it started focusing on "performance"Jul 11 04:51
oiaohmI also agree with the requirement more and more for contracts to be written in plain language.Jul 11 04:51
fewainstead of understanding its about productivity, making happy doltsJul 11 04:52
twittermost are not so happy right nowJul 11 04:52
fewaThey are God fearing americans, not knowing what is happening to themJul 11 04:52
oiaohmOf course it would be nice if contracts to genernal people were required to list other options on offer from the same company.Jul 11 04:52
twittereven the "well off" have their savings go to zero.Jul 11 04:52
twitterA life time of effort, robbed.Jul 11 04:53
oiaohmThe USA idea of Rights is so stupid.Jul 11 04:53
oiaohmIt makes people forget the importance of contracts.Jul 11 04:53
fewatwitter, Elizabeth Warren - Comming collapse of the middle class 11 04:53
fewaoiaohm, dont knock rightsJul 11 04:54
fewaFor the limits and shape of contracts are heavily determined by rightsJul 11 04:54
fewaA world with only 2-party contracts is essentially anarchyJul 11 04:55
oiaohmYou USA rights are part of a contract.Jul 11 04:56
fewapeople simply have no such timeJul 11 04:56
fewaoiaohm, but they are a societal contract, everyone is bound by themJul 11 04:57
oiaohmNo a written contract.Jul 11 04:57
oiaohmThat was signed off on.Jul 11 04:57
fewacontract law is so centered on two distinct parties, usually a individual and a corporationJul 11 04:57
oiaohmContract law is important.Jul 11 04:57
fewaim not arguing that at allJul 11 04:57
oiaohmWithout out it you don't have Rights.Jul 11 04:58
fewabut the Constitution was not ruled by contract lawJul 11 04:58
oiaohmConstitution is a contract.Jul 11 04:58
fewait was the collection of many distinct parties to agree on a common systemJul 11 04:58
oiaohmYep a big complex contract.Jul 11 04:58
fewanobody sued over the collapse of the Articles of confederationJul 11 04:58
fewaoiaohm, and every societal function is a contractJul 11 04:59
fewaoiaohm, but that doesnt mean it is ruled by formal rules of contract lawJul 11 04:59
oiaohmContract law does not only apply to written contracts.Jul 11 04:59
fewaoiaohm, you are taking my statement out of contextJul 11 05:00
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jul 11 05:00
fewacontract law, and real law in general, is the writing down of common practicesJul 11 05:00
fewathats why it is called "common law"Jul 11 05:00
oiaohmIdea of Contract law is one you agree to something backing out will come a price.Jul 11 05:00
fewathis is a contractJul 11 05:00
oiaohmContract law does not demard written.Jul 11 05:01
fewabut the contract, and the legal platform, the societal consequences of failing to deliver a written contractJul 11 05:01
fewaor any legal formal contractJul 11 05:01
twitterLaws keep people from mugging and murdering each other.  Society protects its members from predation.Jul 11 05:01
fewais very seperate from the contract itsselfJul 11 05:02
oiaohmVideo'ed ... Written is just a form of recording a contract.Jul 11 05:02
fewaoiaohm, you miss the point that most people DO understand contracts, they understand cause and effect, and lost promisesJul 11 05:02
oiaohmContract idea is a base of a culture.Jul 11 05:03
fewaits the formalities that you wish to confuse with contracts, and social contracts themselves, that are misunderstoodJul 11 05:03
fewaand for good reason, they are a lawyers, and nit-pickers wet dreamJul 11 05:03
oiaohmProblem is people understand them as cause and effect.Jul 11 05:04
oiaohmNot as something just by asking they might be able to change.Jul 11 05:04
fewaThat is because that is the way things workJul 11 05:04
fewayou are not telling people to understand contracts, but a social custom of negotiationJul 11 05:04
oiaohmPeople are supprised how much they can have changed just by asking.Jul 11 05:04
twitteroiaohm would have people write contracts for their own slavery.Jul 11 05:05
fewa^^^^Jul 11 05:05
twitterhey, it's free!Jul 11 05:05
oiaohmPeople basically do twitterJul 11 05:05
fewaif people only cared about arguing formal contracts nothing would get doneJul 11 05:05
oiaohmGet themselves into debt work themselves into the ground and never think of ever asking the bank for help.Jul 11 05:06
fewathe only reason contracts are so formal is a way of distracting people from arguingJul 11 05:06
oiaohmSo they are basically slaves to what they agreed to twitterJul 11 05:06
Diablo-D3hey guysJul 11 05:06
Diablo-D3we're supposed to be hating mono, right?Jul 11 05:06
fewaa way of appealing to authorityJul 11 05:06
fewaa way of preventing people from having any real agreementsJul 11 05:06
oiaohmDiablo-D3: define hating.Jul 11 05:07
fewaoiaohm, when people buy stuff from a farmers market they understand copyright law exceptionally wellJul 11 05:07
Diablo-D3I'm saying, back me up on my blogJul 11 05:07
fewaIf a price is posted then that is the price they can buy it forJul 11 05:07
fewaa posted price is a contract to sellJul 11 05:07
oiaohmThen if they don't like the price they ask for other options.Jul 11 05:07
twitterwell diablo-d3, you might not want to use it for much. "hate" is a strong word for software, even software from an evil company like M$.Jul 11 05:07
fewabut many companies try to obfusciate thisJul 11 05:08
oiaohmNot really fewaJul 11 05:08
fewasay that they are not bound by these listed pricesJul 11 05:08
oiaohmIf people don't ask companies get lazy.Jul 11 05:08
fewathey will even change the prices in the system so they do not match and can scam peopleJul 11 05:08
fewaoiaohm, NO, its that the transaction cost or arguing is too expensiveJul 11 05:09
fewaas people have forgotten that all promises, even if made in advertising, are offers to sellJul 11 05:09
fewaofers to deliverJul 11 05:09
fewayou are trying to redefine contract to law to mean legalizeJul 11 05:09
twitterhave you found out anything interesting and new, Diablo-D3?Jul 11 05:10
Diablo-D3twitter: miguel posted on a comment, Im not sure if you heard that earlierJul 11 05:10
fewabut legalize is only a distraction with contracts that require low transaction costsJul 11 05:10
fewaand promise low transaction costsJul 11 05:10
oiaohmWrong.   False adveritsement I don't back.  fewa producesnot doing as offered I don't agree with either.Jul 11 05:10
twitterAh, just got back from work.  What and where did Miguel post?Jul 11 05:11
Diablo-D3wait a secJul 11 05:11
twitterI tried to post to his blog.  It never showed up.Jul 11 05:11
oiaohmfewa: Over the years due to people not wanting to barter on price the negitionation bit as faded.Jul 11 05:11
fewaYour just a real by the book person, you dont get that forcing everything to be written out has an enourmous cost that must be balancedJul 11 05:11
blankthemuffinis that supposed to mean something Diablo-D3?Jul 11 05:11
fewaoiaohm, barter is good, i do back thatJul 11 05:12
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: naw, I just think its neat he took time out of his busy schedule to troll on my blog and back up the FUDdy article I was calling out as FUDJul 11 05:12
fewathe unbalanced economic system has done alot of hurtJul 11 05:12
oiaohmRemember I said I also back plain written contracts as well.Jul 11 05:12
fewawell okJul 11 05:12
blankthemuffinand just because people agree with you doesn't mean they're going to back up your flawed arguments.Jul 11 05:12
oiaohmNot these contracts so full of legal terms that you need a phd to read them.Jul 11 05:12
blankthemuffinI say flawed, I should say non-existent.Jul 11 05:13
fewaI am a strong supporter of that tooJul 11 05:13
oiaohmYet people don't refuse to sign those contracts fewaJul 11 05:13
oiaohmCompanies only do some of these things because people let them get away with it.Jul 11 05:13
fewaoiaohm, very good pointJul 11 05:13
twitterGive us a link, Diable-D3, that would be interesting.Jul 11 05:13
oiaohmFirst rule of contract law don't sign anything you don't understand.Jul 11 05:14
Diablo-D3just a sec, Im banging out a response to someoneJul 11 05:14
*Drew3 has quit ("Leaving.")Jul 11 05:14
oiaohmIf that was just obeyed how much simpler do you think contracts would be fewaJul 11 05:14
fewabut also, contracts that the person who signs it could not be expected to undestand should not be validJul 11 05:15
oiaohmContract law puts it on the signing person.Jul 11 05:15
fewaoiaohm, not fullyJul 11 05:15
oiaohmTo turn down what they don't understand mostly.Jul 11 05:15
oiaohmUnless they are too dumb not to know they don't understand it.Jul 11 05:16
fewaoiaohm, most dont read itJul 11 05:16
fewaoiaohm, a contract is no excuse to be immoralJul 11 05:16
fewajust because its written on paperJul 11 05:16
oiaohmimmoral contract would not work if people never agree to it.Jul 11 05:16
oiaohmIts called taking responsiblity.Jul 11 05:17
fewaoiaohm, and a huge thing is that people dont really agree to these thingsJul 11 05:17
oiaohmMost people don't want to take responsiablity for there actions.Jul 11 05:17
oiaohmThat is a huge problem.Jul 11 05:17
fewaas people see no room for negotiation, they see no considerationJul 11 05:18
oiaohmSeems to be todays moot no matter how bad I screw up someone else has to be responsable and I should be able to get out of it.Jul 11 05:18
fewaand when people dont see consideration they will just do whatever gives them somethingJul 11 05:18
oiaohmMost people don't even look for room for negotiation.Jul 11 05:18
oiaohmToo much in a hurry.Jul 11 05:19
fewastill: no considerationJul 11 05:19
oiaohmFast paced live is part of the problem.Jul 11 05:19
fewabut yeah, fast paced is part of itJul 11 05:19
fewaback to the transaction costs problemJul 11 05:19
oiaohmI have done this with a few classes.Jul 11 05:20
fewacontracts, and contract law, must be situated to reduce as great as possible transaction costsJul 11 05:20
oiaohmMost have been shocked just a simple execerise of asking could make a big difference.Jul 11 05:20
Diablo-D3twitter: 11 05:20
fewaoiaohm, ive asked company people who couldn't really make differencesJul 11 05:21
fewaPeople dont like to speak upJul 11 05:21
oiaohmSome places are like that.Jul 11 05:21
fewa i dont get itJul 11 05:21
oiaohmSome other companies are more responsive to it.Jul 11 05:22
fewaCant you already just stream a endless file?Jul 11 05:22
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, OpenTK can be built with monoJul 11 05:22
fewaisnt that already simple with HTTP/1.1Jul 11 05:22
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: not at the time I used it.Jul 11 05:22
fewaI know I have done itJul 11 05:22
oiaohmIts also interesting.  Most of the companies responsive to alterations in contracts also have better techincal support fewa.Jul 11 05:22
fewaoiaohm, but yeah i do read contractsJul 11 05:22
fewaI havnt signed any long term ones thoughJul 11 05:23
fewaI dont like thoseJul 11 05:23
fewaIf you black-mark out parts and then sign it is that valid?Jul 11 05:23
fewaAnyone know about the HTTP streaming? cant you already do this apple thing?Jul 11 05:24
oiaohmDepend on country fewa.Jul 11 05:24
oiaohmSome require crossed out and intials.Jul 11 05:25
fewaoiaohm, of course the other party then has to consider it, can the sales person initial/consider that on behaf of the company?Jul 11 05:25
oiaohmThen a mirror signature from the other side to make valid.Jul 11 05:25
blankthemuffinI might also note that OpenGL wrappers have nothing to do with .NET itself Diablo-D3.Jul 11 05:26
oiaohmIts a built in way in a lot of contracts to basically do a offer.Jul 11 05:26
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: no, but it does impeed my usage of itJul 11 05:26
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: I did mention XNA, which is a Microsoft product for .Net.Jul 11 05:26
blankthemuffinI know.Jul 11 05:26
Diablo-D3Microsoft clearly does not want me to develop games using C#.Jul 11 05:27
oiaohmThat kind a fall under understanding the basics of your countries contract law fewa.Jul 11 05:27
fewaim in USAJul 11 05:27
Diablo-D3I have no interest in something that only works on Windows and the dying XBox platformJul 11 05:27
oiaohmI am not fewa.Jul 11 05:27
fewaUK right?Jul 11 05:27
oiaohmAustraliaJul 11 05:27
fewawait australiaJul 11 05:27
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, I'm pretty sure they don't care about game development for platforms that are not their own.Jul 11 05:27
Diablo-D3oiaohm: although the US law is very British in design, its different in many areasJul 11 05:27
oiaohmAustralian and British are closer.Jul 11 05:28
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: I'm pretty sure Microsoft does not care about _any_ development for platforms that are not their own.Jul 11 05:28
fewaUS law even adopts common law by defaultJul 11 05:28
blankthemuffinUsing their own API is only natural.Jul 11 05:28
Diablo-D3I have no clue why Microsoft is paying Novell other than to try to make it seem like an alternative to Java.Jul 11 05:28
fewathats all Microsoft has been doingJul 11 05:29
fewacopying everybody elseJul 11 05:29
fewaNIHJul 11 05:29
oiaohmThe crossing out bit varies a bit from country to country.  Some just in initials some need full signature some crossing bits out contract is invalid.Jul 11 05:30
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, If their programming environment doesn't support other platforms that will greatly impact adoption. If their gaming environment doesn't support other platforms it matters much less.Jul 11 05:30
oiaohmYou will basically have to check what the usa is fewaJul 11 05:30
Diablo-D3oiaohm: in all countries, this is why you have two lawyers in the roomJul 11 05:30
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: not quite. game developers want to make as much money as possible.Jul 11 05:31
fewaoiaohm, Lawyers try to be the priests of modern societyJul 11 05:31
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: if this means that they loose up to 20% of their revenue because they only support windows, then this is an issue.Jul 11 05:31
blankthemuffinSure, but XNA targets independent developers.Jul 11 05:31
fewaand in the USA each state can have their own lawsJul 11 05:31
oiaohmContract law does not change state to state in the USA.Jul 11 05:32
Diablo-D3oiaohm: wrongJul 11 05:32
blankthemuffinPeople who just want to play, people who most likely have a windows machine and an possibly an XboxJul 11 05:32
Diablo-D3some states do not allow certain things in contractsJul 11 05:32
oiaohmI was mean in the crossing out sections Diablo-D3Jul 11 05:32
Diablo-D3_laws_ change state to state, thus contract law also changes state to stateJul 11 05:32
Diablo-D3no, thats consistant usuallyJul 11 05:32
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: which does not apply to many people.Jul 11 05:33
blankthemuffinI think the amount of people using XNA would conflict with that assumption Diablo-D3Jul 11 05:33
Diablo-D3people use it because they think direct3D is a valid API for use.Jul 11 05:34
Diablo-D3its not.Jul 11 05:34
blankthemuffinWhy not? Because microsoft made it?Jul 11 05:34
Diablo-D3anything that can cost me money as a developer in the future is not worth considering, period.Jul 11 05:34
Diablo-D3why do you think companies have to _pay_ other companies to port their games to other systems?Jul 11 05:34
Diablo-D3because their developers are morons and screwed it up in the first placeJul 11 05:34
blankthemuffinI'd say it's crap because it only supports windows and xbox, but the other side of it is that OpenGL has an API from the middle ages.Jul 11 05:34
Diablo-D3a properly written java app comes pre-ported to all the major java platforms that can run the appJul 11 05:35
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: middle ages how?Jul 11 05:35
Diablo-D3opengl supports everything d3d 11 does.Jul 11 05:35
fewathe uniform code applies everywhereJul 11 05:35
blankthemuffinSure, but I didn't say features, I said APIJul 11 05:35
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: the API is well designed and makes senseJul 11 05:35
fewaUCCJul 11 05:35
Diablo-D3if that means its "from the middle ages", then I wish all APIs were.Jul 11 05:36
blankthemuffinSo why do people use DirectX then Diablo-D3?Jul 11 05:36
Diablo-D3Probably because they drank the Microsoft flavor-aid.Jul 11 05:36
blankthemuffinyeah rightJul 11 05:36
Diablo-D3Most people do not even ask if there is an alternativeJul 11 05:37
oiaohmd3d is not what you call that great.Jul 11 05:37
oiaohmNether is opengl really.Jul 11 05:37
Diablo-D3opengl works great, oiaohmJul 11 05:37
oiaohmBoth have had the effect of limiting what features video cards have developed.Jul 11 05:37
blankthemuffinoiaohm, Oh I agree, but OpenGL is not doing well. 3.1 is nicer, but 3.0 was such a let down.Jul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not at allJul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3oiaohm: opengl _requires_ video card manufs to innovateJul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3this is why the extension system existsJul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3a vendor can cook up a new feature, write a spec, and instantly a new feature is bornJul 11 05:38
blankthemuffinI think you mean _allows_ not _requires_Jul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3on d3d, nothing is done without microsofts approval, molestation, and ruination.Jul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: nope, requiresJul 11 05:38
Diablo-D3ARB does not generally create new features.Jul 11 05:39
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, oh so it's impossible to write a OpenGL implementation without inventing new features?Jul 11 05:39
Diablo-D3they promote vendor extensions, and then eventually promote well used ARB extensions into coreJul 11 05:39
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: no, but its impossible to _add_ new features without inventing them first.Jul 11 05:39
Diablo-D3microsoft often tries to invent new things in D3D and then no one uses them or supports themJul 11 05:40
blankthemuffinIndeed, but OpenGL doesn't force vendors to invent them.Jul 11 05:40
Diablo-D3opengl is vendor controlled, d3d is microsoft controlled.Jul 11 05:40
blankthemuffinas in, if innovation is done, it will be by the vendor, but there is no forcing of them do innovate.Jul 11 05:40
Diablo-D3I'd rather my API be controlled by the people who design the damned hardware than instead by a company who's never made hardware in their livesJul 11 05:40
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: eysJul 11 05:41
Diablo-D3*yesJul 11 05:41
Diablo-D3but opengl does not evolve in a vacuumJul 11 05:41
blankthemuffinand believe it or not, DirectX has a standards board too, made up of hardware vendors.Jul 11 05:41
blankthemuffinMicrosoft don't go: Oh hay vendors we just made up a new feature, implement it.Jul 11 05:42
Diablo-D3so why has D3D changed APIs several times over the years?Jul 11 05:42
Diablo-D3when opengl does it, its done once and its done right.Jul 11 05:42
fewaopengl has always been more liked by vendorsJul 11 05:42
Diablo-D3and why does Micrsooft take so long to add a new feature?Jul 11 05:42
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, because it can. OpenGL's "Stability" is terrible.Jul 11 05:42
oiaohmblankthemuffin: MS has gone a few times lets have this feature now hardware makers work out how to support it.Jul 11 05:42
fewaand historically by software vendorsJul 11 05:42
Diablo-D3for a recent example, opengl had geometry shaders firstJul 11 05:43
fewamicrosoft just wants to control the middlewareJul 11 05:43
blankthemuffinOf course it did Diablo-D3, it usually gets them first, but that does not mean they were not developed for both concurrently.Jul 11 05:43
fewaand thats why they try to force everyone out of writing kernel codeJul 11 05:43
oiaohmLot of the video card makers are looking at saying stuff off to both opengl and d3d.Jul 11 05:44
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: [01:01:32] <oiaohm> blankthemuffin: MS has gone a few times lets have this feature now hardware makers work out how to support it.Jul 11 05:44
Diablo-D3what oiaohm says is trueJul 11 05:44
Diablo-D3several times these features have been killedJul 11 05:44
Diablo-D3or they mutated into something a lot like opengl'sJul 11 05:45
oiaohmInstead they produce galium3d drivers and the upper levels of opengl and d3d just will have to work out how to interface.Jul 11 05:45
blankthemuffinon the other hand, users have been crying out to OpenGL for an API refresh for years, and its hardly happened.Jul 11 05:45
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: it did actuallyJul 11 05:46
Diablo-D3opengl 3.0 added the ability to remove old school methodsJul 11 05:46
oiaohmCad refersh was opengl 3.0Jul 11 05:46
Diablo-D3it also added the ability to ask for a specific version of openglJul 11 05:46
oiaohmGame developer refersh will come latter.Jul 11 05:46
Diablo-D33.1 turns the removal on by defaultJul 11 05:46
blankthemuffinI know Diablo-D3.Jul 11 05:46
Diablo-D3however, a opengl 3.0 pipeline will work on 2.1 fine.Jul 11 05:46
blankthemuffinYeah, as I said, 3.1 is a step in the right direction, but it's still not the golden bullet OpenGL really needed for the 3 series.Jul 11 05:46
Diablo-D3it only _removes_ things, opengl was already modern.Jul 11 05:47
blankthemuffinit only removes things ( actually that's wrong ) even though developers are crying out for new features in the APIJul 11 05:47
Diablo-D3the future compat context in 3.0 and 3.1 removes API calls.Jul 11 05:48
blankthemuffinYes I know what it doesJul 11 05:48
Diablo-D3if you try to call them, you get a gl error saying not to call themJul 11 05:48
fewaoiaohm, 11 05:48
Diablo-D3also, like I said, its not up to Khronos (the new ARB) to add new featuresJul 11 05:49
blankthemuffin3.1 also adds texture buffer objects, signed normalised textures, Uniform buffer objects, instancing to name a few.Jul 11 05:49
Diablo-D3its up to vendorsJul 11 05:49
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: thats 3.1, not 3.0Jul 11 05:49
blankthemuffinindeedJul 11 05:49
blankthemuffinthat's why I said 3.1Jul 11 05:49
Diablo-D33.0 only adds VAOs as a major feature, and thats also available as an extension under 2.xJul 11 05:49
oiaohmblankthemuffin: some of the issue is lot those new features need a new driver design.Jul 11 05:49
Diablo-D3(VAOs just put multiple VBOs under the same handle, its not that big of a feature)Jul 11 05:50
blankthemuffinIn the end it comes down to this: there is a reason everybody isn't using OpenGL, and it's not because microsoft are evil.Jul 11 05:50
Diablo-D3no, its because people are ignorantJul 11 05:50
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Diablo-D3most programmers my age have been brought up in the age of microsoftJul 11 05:51
Diablo-D3they've only ever used a windows boxJul 11 05:51
blankthemuffinhow old are you?Jul 11 05:51
Diablo-D3they think macs are for artists and rich peopleJul 11 05:51
Diablo-D326.Jul 11 05:51
oiaohmOnce gailuim3d drivers start to become more common opengl and d3d may reduce in importants.Jul 11 05:51
oiaohmAs new frameworks are allowed up.Jul 11 05:51
oiaohm  Also we have copy cats.Jul 11 05:53
twitterUgh, that "Lefty" ass wastes RMS's time. 11 05:53
twitter197 comments.  What a sewer.Jul 11 05:54
twitterThat's enough of that idiots trolling for me.Jul 11 05:57
Diablo-D3twitter: see the blog entry yet?Jul 11 05:58
twitterLet's do a little research.Jul 11 05:58
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jul 11 05:59
twitterOne hit: 11 06:02
twitterOne event with him in it.Jul 11 06:02
twitterSays he represents "ACCESS"Jul 11 06:02
twitterOne 50 minute presentation in Austin Tx.   UT Supercomputing Center in Austin, TXJul 11 06:03
twitterfrom 11 06:04
Diablo-D3twitter: 11 06:04
Diablo-D3twitter: read it yet?Jul 11 06:04
twitterto 11 06:04
twitterIt is difficult to believe that the relentless attack bot we see harassing BN and RMS could do anything useful for anyone.Jul 11 06:05
twitterThree hits here all with ACCESS Co. 11 06:12
Diablo-D3twitter: weellll?Jul 11 06:13
twitterI wonder if he hangs out at these events to do what he did to RMS, misquote, harass and waste time.Jul 11 06:14
twitterGeee, which of these companies does Lefty belong to? Co., Ltd.&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8Jul 11 06:15
twitterLooks like this one. 11 06:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Study Shows Patents Make Science and Technology Worse 11 06:17
blankthemuffinHe has a problem with the perpetually correct, impartial, brilliant, wise RMS, destroy him.Jul 11 06:17
Diablo-D3RMS isnt so badJul 11 06:17
Diablo-D3hes just misguided sometimesJul 11 06:17
Diablo-D3like he lets that dot gnu shit liveJul 11 06:17
blankthemuffinI don't see how dotgnu is any different from monoJul 11 06:18
blankthemuffinapart from being sucky in comparisonJul 11 06:18
Diablo-D3its notJul 11 06:18
Diablo-D3its still shit just like mono, so it deserves to dieJul 11 06:18
twitterLOL, they use Power Point.Jul 11 06:18
twitter 11 06:19
blankthemuffinI disagree with lefty, but I have a funny feeling most of the people who disagree with him are only there because they picture RMS as some kind of god.Jul 11 06:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft (Co)Founder Collaborates with World's Biggest Patent Trolls on Life Blackmail 11 06:20
blankthemuffinAnd the whole thing would disappear if RMS had've said: "That's not what I meant, I'm sorry that anyone took it that way"Jul 11 06:20
Diablo-D3rms never does thatJul 11 06:21
Diablo-D3since hes godJul 11 06:22
Diablo-D3and you should bow down and whateverJul 11 06:22
twitterhmmm, not a bad looking company.  If the "Lefty" visiting this site really works there, they should be embarrassed.Jul 11 06:25
twitterAh, they were to purchase Palm Source.Jul 11 06:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Drone in India: 11 06:29
twitterI wonder if Access is a GPL violator....Jul 11 06:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shill Jonathan Zuck Exposed, Denounced, Retreats 11 06:30
twitterLike RMS said, "Open Source, different movement."Jul 11 06:31
twitteror, perhaps, someone is impersonating Lefty.  They use Windows, so someone could even be using his own computer to troll around.Jul 11 06:32
twitterNasty.Jul 11 06:32
twitterHe's a security guy, just the sort of person to be targeted by the Operation Havoc people.Jul 11 06:32
twitterA quick email to the guy, pointing out the RMS and BN trolling should clear things up.  Want to write him, Roy?Jul 11 06:33
schestowitzWho?Jul 11 06:35
twitterSchlesingerJul 11 06:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Programmes Keep Dropping Like (Butter)Flies 11 06:36
twitterHe's a real person who worked for http://www.access-company.comJul 11 06:36
blankthemuffinwhat are you? the boycott novell attack dog or something twitter?Jul 11 06:36
twitterIt is hard to believe that someone who works for a company like that, non free though it is, could be such a monster troll.Jul 11 06:36
twitterI mean really, ragging on RMS for the "Cult of Emacs" gag?  Who'd really waste their and RMS's time like that?Jul 11 06:37
blankthemuffinWhy are you wasting your time being a dick about it twitter?Jul 11 06:39
blankthemuffinPlaying internet detective, you truly are the man around here.Jul 11 06:40
Diablo-D3oh shush blankthemuffinJul 11 06:41
Diablo-D3no one wants to hear you troll eitherJul 11 06:41
blankthemuffinYou guys seem to think everything is a troll.Jul 11 06:41
blankthemuffinDifferent viewpoint? STOP TROLLING!Jul 11 06:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Windows Still Kills British Patients 11 06:43
neighborleeblankthemuffin, thats immature,,if you disagree with twitter fine state your case that would be the adult approach..if not your just throwing up adhominem junk and it makes you look foolish.Jul 11 06:47
blankthemuffinI don't disagree with twitter. I think Lefty is being a bit of a twat. I disagree with twitter's manner, which I made pretty clear. Playing internet detective, looking up this Lefty guy, making out he's some terrible scourge of the earth.Jul 11 06:50
blankthemuffinIt's like the other day when that itwire douche wrote sensationalist "journalism" when he dissected some guy's blog post over four pages because he dared call stallman a 'fuck'.Jul 11 06:53
twitterAh ha.  RMS gave the keynote and that's what "Lefty" ragged on. 11 06:59
*Muttley wonders how hurd is coming along ;)Jul 11 06:59
twitter***twitter ignores Muttley troll.Jul 11 07:01
twitterhere are a few useful trolls and normal reactions to RMS's keynote.  Via a QT person 11 07:02
blankthemuffindidn't you even read what lefty said before you jumped in with an opinion twitter?Jul 11 07:05
twitterWhat really happened at the keynote.  People sang the free software song. 11 07:08
blankthemuffinWere you there?Jul 11 07:09
twitterAnother good write up. 11 07:10
twitterIt is too bad that I have not found a recording of the event.  I'd like to test "Lefty's" bullshit out first hand.Jul 11 07:10
blankthemuffinOh I see, as long as it subscribes to your world view, it's ok. Anything else is blasphemy.Jul 11 07:11
blankthemuffinConsidering Lefty wasn't the only one complaining about RMS's keynote, lends me to think he wasn't a lone crazy.Jul 11 07:11
blankthemuffinisn't*Jul 11 07:12
twitterOne thing is for sure.  "Lefty's" hostility is all his own.  All of these other descriptions are full of praise, common sense and love of free software.Jul 11 07:13
blankthemuffinNo they're notJul 11 07:13
schestowitzExcellent Jeff Hawkins talk: Mozilla Labs has set up the Open Web Tools Directory, a bid to build a comprehensive list of the open-source developer tools available.Jul 11 07:14
schestowitzOn Monday, the open source browser project issued a call to the programmer community to help with the construction of the new central database.Jul 11 07:14
schestowitz"As we've explored different tools we could create here as part of the Developer Tools Lab, we've come to the opinion that in addition to creating new tools, one of the best things we could do is help developers understand the broad universe of tools that already exist and expose some of the fantastic and amazing work that's being done," wrote Ben Galbraith, a member of Mozilla Labs Developer Tools team, in a blog post.Jul 11 07:14
schestowitzOOps. Wrong paste. Should be 11 07:15
twitterUgh, "the first three keynotes were not recorded."  Lefty can make up what ever he wants.Jul 11 07:15
blankthemuffinI've seen at least four blog posts on planet gnome which all basically say they were dismayed by RMS's keynote, and couple of them link to Lefty's paste.Jul 11 07:15
Diablo-D3schestowitz: yoJul 11 07:15
blankthemuffintwitter, he can, but considering the number of people who back him up, it's unlikely.Jul 11 07:15
Diablo-D3schestowitz: miguel apparently has "java c#" in his magic internet search filterJul 11 07:15
Diablo-D3 11 07:16
Diablo-D3scroll down for miguel commentsJul 11 07:16
schestowitzGood for Miguel..Jul 11 07:16
schestowitzbrb. I'm doing linksJul 11 07:16
twitterding, ding, I think I have it. 11 07:17
Diablo-D3hahaha he got his saint ignucius shit out again?Jul 11 07:17
Diablo-D3so wait, people think this shit is serious?Jul 11 07:18
Diablo-D3schestowitz: btw, are you pro-, anti-, or meh over java?Jul 11 07:19
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twitterThere were a lot of good youtube videos.Jul 11 07:32
twitterbut none of the whole thing.Jul 11 07:32
twitterI think RMS understood what was going on when he wrote, "I have had very few negative reactions to St IGNUcius in the past; the only one I can remember was from someone who was hostile to begin with"Jul 11 07:33
Diablo-D3<rms> some people are dicksJul 11 07:34
Diablo-D3that sums it upJul 11 07:34
*schestowitz didn't know Hawkins did the same research as me... 11 07:34
schestowitzI'll do some posts nowJul 11 07:36
Diablo-D3schestowitz: you should link to that blog entry above, since it tries to de-FUD a pro-Novell FUD articleJul 11 07:37
schestowitzWhat do you want from us?Jul 11 07:38
schestowitzI know who you are.Jul 11 07:38
Diablo-D3I want Mono dead, Roy.Jul 11 07:39
Diablo-D3So it seems we have similar goals.Jul 11 07:39
schestowitzApple blames plastic for phone discolouration :: "These questions, and many others, have not been answered by the Apple press office. We guess it will stick to this line until a black phone discolours or catches fire." 11 07:42
schestowitzOoh! Shiny.Jul 11 07:42
schestowitzDiablo-D3: you attacked us, verbally.Jul 11 07:42
Diablo-D3schestowitz: yes, and in the mean time I've decided c# and mono are horrid pieces of shitJul 11 07:43
schestowitzGoogle remembers. 11 07:43
blankthemuffinMake up your mind Diablo-D3.Jul 11 07:43
blankthemuffinYou're jumping between polar opposites.Jul 11 07:43
Diablo-D3schestowitz: dude, you can just link to my blogJul 11 07:44
Diablo-D3I haven't changed my mind that you go to extreme measures sometimes, however.Jul 11 07:44
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: not really, I used c# for a month, I evaluated it, and I found it to be utter crap.Jul 11 07:44
blankthemuffinA month? What did you write in that time?Jul 11 07:45
Diablo-D3half of a 3D engine.Jul 11 07:45
blankthemuffinI'd like to see it.Jul 11 07:45
Diablo-D3nope.Jul 11 07:45
blankthemuffinAll your blog posts seem to either unconditionally praise something, or call people douchebags, or, to quote "You know what, Real Steve Jobs? Up yours.".Jul 11 07:46
Diablo-D3welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay.Jul 11 07:46
blankthemuffinOh so because it's the internet everybody is insanely polar?Jul 11 07:46
Diablo-D3no, its because you're trolling and no one is taking you seriously.Jul 11 07:47
Diablo-D3schestowitz: at any rate, Miguel being an absolute douche when I approached him about Mono usability issues was the last strawJul 11 07:47
schestowitzDiablo-D3: no offense, I would rather link to chan4Jul 11 07:47
schestowitz4cfhanJul 11 07:47
blankthemuffinIt's funny how people use the trolling argument to avoid actually dealing with the points raised.Jul 11 07:47
Diablo-D3schestowitz: link or not, I don't careJul 11 07:48
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schestowitzI have a long post about Mono comingJul 11 07:48
schestowitzFeel free to participateJul 11 07:48
schestowitzTrust needs to be earnedJul 11 07:48
Diablo-D3schestowitz: however, its quite obvious that Miguel doesn't care about Mono being usable as long as he gets that money from MicrosoftJul 11 07:48
schestowitzYou celebrated DDOS attacks on us and cursed usJul 11 07:48
schestowitzYou also spread libel (knowingly) about usJul 11 07:49
schestowitzDiablo-D3: miguel cares for miguelJul 11 07:49
schestowitzAnd by extension those with him (loves ones), i.e. Ximian, Novell and MicrosoftJul 11 07:49
Diablo-D3Ive never spread libel about bnJul 11 07:49
Diablo-D3You're an extremist.Jul 11 07:50
schestowitzHumans are inherently selfish and to believe otherwise is to stretch the expectation of reciprocity for goodwill. Ask neural experts about itJul 11 07:50
schestowitzAnimals too better treat those genetically close to them because some time down the road they may reap benefit. Studies in primitive societies confirm thisJul 11 07:50
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schestowitzAnd this is why I probed cj's motivesJul 11 07:50
Diablo-D3I do believe your movement can be taken seriously if you stop attacking MS and Novell and instead try to promote languages that suck less.Jul 11 07:50
schestowitzI know who he's withJul 11 07:50
Diablo-D3So, Roy, what language to you program in?Jul 11 07:51
blankthemuffinhere are some nice attention whore blog headers by you Diablo-D3: "Jim Cramer: You are a gigantic douchebag" "The Daily Show proves Republicans are idiots" "Slate’s Jacob Weisberg is a douchebag" "Boycott Novell attacks itself to get attention" "RMS gets it wrong (C# and .NET suck no matter whose you use)" "237 House Representatives who hate America"Jul 11 07:51
schestowitzAnd thus whose interests he advances, e.g. for another contract with Microsoft Corp.Jul 11 07:51
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Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: Look, if your blog isn't popular, thats not my problem.Jul 11 07:52
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, says the guy trying to leech of others popularity to give himself a sense of worth.Jul 11 07:52
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: but thats what _you're_ doing right nowJul 11 07:52
Diablo-D3You love C#, why are you even in here?Jul 11 07:53
blankthemuffinbecause I can see that there are two sides to the mono story, and I'm interested in discussing them.Jul 11 07:53
blankthemuffinI'd be the attention whore if I were in #mono asking miguel to link to my blog.Jul 11 07:54
Diablo-D3Then quit attacking people who think Monos a pile of shit independently of there being a "story"Jul 11 07:54
Diablo-D3schestowitz: you didnt answer my question btw, what language do you prefer?Jul 11 07:54
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blankthemuffinI'm attacking you because you are not helping either side of the discussion, baseless attacks don't get anybody anywhere.Jul 11 07:55
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: except you're trying to attribute something that isnt thereJul 11 07:55
Diablo-D3I don't think there is some Microsoft scheme going onJul 11 07:56
Diablo-D3Microsoft wants to lock people in, sure, but thats just a standard business tacticJul 11 07:56
Diablo-D3C#/.Net is simply a bad clone of Java _not_ out of malice and some weird Linux hate fetish, but because Microsoft tends to hire idiots.Jul 11 07:57
blankthemuffinI never said you did. I called your attacks baseless. .NET SUCKS LOLOLOL isn't really an argument. In that blog post you're trying to get roy to post you don't make a single point to backup your claims.Jul 11 07:57
blankthemuffinnot even an invented oneJul 11 07:57
Diablo-D3except I say "see this article I linked to? its full of fud, and heres why"Jul 11 07:58
blankthemuffinYou're stuck in a world of what's and you're ignoring the why'sJul 11 07:58
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: have you even read what I linked to?Jul 11 07:58
Diablo-D3its pretty disgustingJul 11 07:58
blankthemuffinWhat you've written is pretty disgusting.Jul 11 07:59
blankthemuffinYour second quote is taken out of context.Jul 11 08:00
Diablo-D3Even if that were true, at least I wasn't paid for it.Jul 11 08:00
blankthemuffinYour first quote is kinda flawed, the best any metric provides is a rough idea.Jul 11 08:00
blankthemuffinYes indeed, I'd want my money back.Jul 11 08:01
Diablo-D3Its really obvious the article I linked to is a paid placement.Jul 11 08:01
Diablo-D3It just wildly attacks java (and then debian farther down for no reason) and tells a few liesJul 11 08:02
schestowitzDiablo-D3: I see you too dislike injustices. You really ought to help us rather than antagonise it. You spend energy targeting the wrong issues.Jul 11 08:02
blankthemuffinIf you actually read the sd times article you'll see it's rather even handed. Here's a quote from it: "It's also worth noting that many of the high-profile Mono applications are written and maintained by Novell. That's a pretty classic platform strategy—try to get your platform broader distribution (in this case, integrated into the Gnome desktop) by creating compelling applications that require it."Jul 11 08:02
Diablo-D3schestowitz: to be fair, you spend too much energy trying to bring up I was anti-BN when I was using C#Jul 11 08:02
Diablo-D3schestowitz: I use Java now.Jul 11 08:02
schestowitzSD Times -- be carefulJul 11 08:02
schestowitzThat author had Microsoft buy his lunch 2 weeks agoJul 11 08:02
schestowitzHe said this to meJul 11 08:02
schestowitzAnd he then hooked up with DiDioJul 11 08:03
schestowitzThey are using himJul 11 08:03
blankthemuffinIf you actually read the article they're not saying java is bad, they're saying that it's shooting itself in the foot by not making sure there are up to date packages in distribution repositories.Jul 11 08:03
schestowitzStephen is a "yes man" to CanonicalJul 11 08:03
schestowitzThere are several of themJul 11 08:03
Diablo-D3blankthemuffin: except they bring up debian which basically does not allow outside packaging from non-DDsJul 11 08:03
schestowitzLike Asay, Var Guy and other friends with a mancrush on Mark SJul 11 08:03
Diablo-D3thats going beyond ignoranceJul 11 08:03
Diablo-D3thats clear malliceJul 11 08:03
blankthemuffinDiablo-D3, I'm sure there are eclipse people who use debian.Jul 11 08:03
Diablo-D3yes, Im one of themJul 11 08:04
schestowitzblankthemuffin: they use the yardstick that suits themJul 11 08:04
Diablo-D3read what I wrote.Jul 11 08:04
schestowitzIn my household Linux reignsJul 11 08:04
schestowitzThere. I said itJul 11 08:04
schestowitzSo Linux won over the desktopJul 11 08:04
schestowitzThe whole thing is spinJul 11 08:04
Diablo-D3I've used Debian for a decade as my primary desktop distro of choiceJul 11 08:04
Diablo-D3I use Eclipse off Eclipse's site. Big deal.Jul 11 08:04
blankthemuffinIsn't that all your articles are schestowitz?Jul 11 08:04
blankthemuffinSpin?Jul 11 08:04
schestowitzQuerstion/hypothesis: how to make it seem like Mono > JavaJul 11 08:04
blankthemuffinIsn't that all any of the articles are?Jul 11 08:04
schestowitzSolution in search of a problemJul 11 08:05
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blankthemuffinThe facts don't change often, their interpretation is a matter of spin.Jul 11 08:05
schestowitzblankthemuffin: no, interprettaionJul 11 08:05
schestowitzWith a goal in mind which is spreading freedomsJul 11 08:05
schestowitzIncluding speech and allJul 11 08:05
schestowitzNot just Free softwareJul 11 08:05
blankthemuffinschestowitz, intentions have no meaning in the real world, just consequences.Jul 11 08:05
schestowitzSo barriers to these freedoms need to be exposed for their effectJul 11 08:05
schestowitzLike patents in life-saving drugsJul 11 08:06
schestowitzI won't be covering the positive sides of patentsJul 11 08:06
schestowitzMany people do that alreadyJul 11 08:06
schestowitzBut write about the harms to raise awarenessJul 11 08:06
blankthemuffinIndeed, but it's still spin on the basic facts.Jul 11 08:07
schestowitzNo.Jul 11 08:07
schestowitzEven papers have biasesJul 11 08:07
schestowitzIt's hiddenJul 11 08:07
schestowitzGuardian, Independent... mostly ToryJul 11 08:07
blankthemuffinEverything has a bias.Jul 11 08:07
blankthemuffinWhich is what I'm saying.Jul 11 08:07
schestowitzForbes -pro-FraustreetJul 11 08:07
schestowitzI read many MS blogsJul 11 08:08
schestowitzTo understand the opposite views, not to necessarily concur.Jul 11 08:08
schestowitzI don't heckle them, everJul 11 08:08
blankthemuffinI'm here to discuss both sides of the story, not to necessarily agree.Jul 11 08:09
schestowitzI'm actually in good touch with those people... Mary Jo Foley, Pirillo and othersJul 11 08:09
schestowitzThey read me too... to help them understand why people dislike MicrosoftJul 11 08:09
Diablo-D3schestowitz: people dislike Microsoft because they write shitty codeJul 11 08:11
Diablo-D3thats not hard to understandJul 11 08:11
neighborleeblankthemuffin, if all has bias, arent you just adding your own spin so I dont see how that makes you particularly special to call out royJul 11 08:12
Diablo-D3the only thing that keeps Windows from totally falling apart is the few bits of good code here and thereJul 11 08:12
Diablo-D3like, I'm actually impressed with the NT kernelJul 11 08:12
Diablo-D3if they'd jettison the windows that runs on top of it, it'd form the base of a great OSJul 11 08:13
Diablo-D3but that'd probably require using a language designed to help the programmer instead of making his job harderJul 11 08:13
Diablo-D3c# is not that languageJul 11 08:13
Omar87Hey there.Jul 11 08:14
Omar87There this guy on Twitter that I'd like to let you know of.Jul 11 08:14
Omar87His name is NastyMicrosoft.Jul 11 08:14
Diablo-D3schestowitz: you didnt answer my question. what language do you prefer? I really wanna knowJul 11 08:15
Omar87Keeps Tweeting news about MS vandalizing, sabotaging, bribing... etc.Jul 11 08:15
Diablo-D3like, someone once said XP has 40 million lines of code in itJul 11 08:16
Diablo-D3thats about 39 too many.Jul 11 08:16
Diablo-D3software needs to become less redundant, less complex, and easier to understand to surviveJul 11 08:17
Diablo-D3Windows, imo, is on life supportJul 11 08:18
schestowitzOmar87: what's the URL?Jul 11 08:18
schestowitzDiablo-D3: There is Windows (product) and Microsoft (people). Different things.Jul 11 08:19
Diablo-D3schestowitz: but you say that without actually reading what I wrote.Jul 11 08:20
Diablo-D3People make products. Windows is not a great product. Therefor this tells me the people of Microsoft are generally not great programmers.Jul 11 08:20
twitter***twitter ignored Diablo-D3 a while ago.  Nasty little troll.Jul 11 08:22
Diablo-D3says a guy named twitter.Jul 11 08:22
twitterha ha.  Basically tweets everything BN publishes. 11 08:24
Diablo-D3schestowitz: why isnt there a bn group on identica yet?Jul 11 08:25
schestowitzThere is one on TwitterJul 11 08:25
Diablo-D3but not identicaJul 11 08:25
Diablo-D3I dont use twitterJul 11 08:25
schestowitzMy aggregator can't do identicaJul 11 08:25
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How Long Before NHS Follows LSE’s Footsteps and Dumps Windows? 11 08:26
twitterYou asked for the NastyMicrosoft URL, there it is.Jul 11 08:26
schestowitztwitter: judging by the Digg links it could be that dude from Digg that linked to Microsoft-hostile stuffJul 11 08:26
twitterIt is what it is.Jul 11 08:27
schestowitz 11 08:27
schestowitzProbably nymshiftedJul 11 08:27
schestowitzI don't know the person.Jul 11 08:27
twitterlooks like a fanJul 11 08:28
schestowitzIf it's who I think it is, he makes for polarisation by making BN seem ugly and nastyJul 11 08:28
schestowitzThat's why many people don't understand the siteJul 11 08:28
schestowitzThey see angry people linking to itJul 11 08:28
schestowitzBut I can't quite complain because they think they helpJul 11 08:29
schestowitzIt's the same with that "Fink" guyJul 11 08:29
twitterah, there seems to be a lot of that going around.  They try to discredit.Jul 11 08:29
schestowitzSomeimes I link to Groklaw and use stronger words than Groklaw'sJul 11 08:29
schestowitzSo in a way I can be accused of making Groklaw seem more aggressiveJul 11 08:29
twitterWell, there's plenty of malicious behavior too.  Ett, Lefty and all that.  It's deliberate.Jul 11 08:29
twitterThey try to stink the place up.Jul 11 08:30
schestowitzI had to apologise to people who were insulted by folks who linked to BNJul 11 08:30
schestowitzAs though I'm responsible for those who cite usJul 11 08:30
schestowitzI can't recall the guy's nameJul 11 08:30
schestowitzSome Italian guy with a SUSE blogJul 11 08:30
schestowitzSomeone bothered him a lotJul 11 08:30
schestowitzAnd he thought BN was behind itJul 11 08:30
twitterAh.Jul 11 08:30
schestowitzEventually we became like friendsJul 11 08:31
schestowitzBecause he realised I'm not there to troll SUSE blogs at all.Jul 11 08:31
schestowitzSome people take it too farJul 11 08:31
twitterYes, acting obnoxious in someone else's name is a common tactic.Jul 11 08:31
twitterWhat you are here to do is apparent from your page.Jul 11 08:31
fewaschestowitz, yep, some people dont understand the concept of individualsJul 11 08:31
schestowitzOr companiesJul 11 08:32
twitterYou do a lot of good research and analysis.Jul 11 08:32
schestowitzAdmittedly everyone does this. Like, if someone from MS says something you make it a Microsoft statementJul 11 08:32
twitterM$, Novell and others want to shut you up.Jul 11 08:32
schestowitzThis is why companies are so afraid of what their employees say onlineJul 11 08:32
schestowitzCompanies ARE employeesJul 11 08:32
schestowitzBut they HIRE themJul 11 08:32
schestowitzBN doesn't 'hire' people to stand for itJul 11 08:33
fewaschestowitz, do you know if the NHS has any opinion on the public health care option modeled on medicare?Jul 11 08:33
schestowitzThat's like me pretending to spreak on behalf of UbuntuJul 11 08:33
schestowitzI can'tJul 11 08:33
twitterM$ hires people to lie, harass and intimidate.Jul 11 08:33
fewatwitter, or even pretend to be linux fanbois :PJul 11 08:33
twitterThey pretend to be a lot of people and to represent a lot of interests when it suits them.Jul 11 08:34
twitterM$ has to shut up their own employees because the lies M$ perpetuates are all complex and fragile.Jul 11 08:34
schestowitzfewa: follow the NHS links in BNJul 11 08:35
twitterLike the guy they canned for taking a picture of Apples on the M$ loading dock.  That totally blew away years of careful lies about M$'s own publishing software.Jul 11 08:35
schestowitzI have loads on links on itJul 11 08:35
schestowitzIncluding incidents where surgeries get suspended due to Windows crashesJul 11 08:36
schestowitzAnd budget overrunsJul 11 08:36
twitterAh, I should look at that.Jul 11 08:36
twitterbut it is late, good night.Jul 11 08:37
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Omar87schestowitz: 11 08:41
fewaschestowitz, well this is a differnt issueJul 11 08:42
fewaahhh, national health serviceJul 11 08:43
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Omar871schestowitz: MSN Messenger died?Jul 11 08:46
Omar871schestowitz: Really?Jul 11 08:46
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schestowitzHey, mohammad Jul 11 08:55
schestowitzOmar87: I'd rather not pay attention to thatJul 11 08:55
schestowitzI learned my lessonsJul 11 08:55
schestowitzPeople also advised me not to answer all E-mails from strangersJul 11 08:56
schestowitzThere are trapsJul 11 08:56
schestowitzI have a lot left to learn, if not from experience, then from those who have some. Like filtering out trolls out of visibility  (I don't read troll comments in BN) and never to apologise. But PJ still advocates censorship; others don't.Jul 11 08:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Norway Embraces Open Standards, Many Others Follow Suit 11 09:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shares Destiny with Partners That Promote Its Agenda 11 09:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Does Microsoft Struggle to Find Leaders for Vista 7? 11 10:45
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Lobbyist Jonathan Zuck Gets Exposed and Quickly Retreats 11 11:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] not going to midsummer night's dream readthrough today after all - freda is unwell. poo! poor pickle :-*Jul 11 11:34
fewa 11 11:38
fewa15Jul 11 11:38
fewaUnacceptable Browser HTTP Accept Headers (Yes, You Safari and Internet Explorer)Jul 11 11:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @mandybarnettcom "World-Class Vocalist" and #spam mer.Jul 11 11:40
fewano suprise here: IE/Microsoft would rather you use proprietary formats over HTMLJul 11 11:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] well gosh, that was my 2000th twitter post. champagne, etc.Jul 11 11:41
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_Goblinhello allJul 11 12:22
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trmanco 11 12:25
trmanco3.0.2Jul 11 12:25
trmancohello _GoblinJul 11 12:25
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trmanco.EMACS: Up 177d 14h 26m 10s (Wed 2009-01-14 11:26:19), 19 buffers, 0 filesJul 11 12:34
trmanco.EMACS: Up 327d 5h 26m 7s (Sun 2008-08-17 21:28:30), 37 buffers, 13 filesJul 11 12:34
schestowitzHey _goblinJul 11 12:44
schestowitzhe leftJul 11 12:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] I'm offline for a couple of days. One of my sisters in law deseased this morning. Will stay with my brother for the next days and nights.Jul 11 13:01
_Goblinsorry to hear thatJul 11 13:03
schestowitzYeah. Sad news.Jul 11 13:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Mono Roundup: Still Dangerous, Still Not Acceptable < >Jul 11 13:19
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Omar871schestowitz: It's really ludicrous how M$ trolls are trying to convince us that a convicted monopolist that broke all the laws and standards in the past would suddenly morph into an innocent angel, isn't it?Jul 11 13:39
schestowitzExactlyJul 11 13:40
schestowitzBut BN does Comes exhibits now :-) We can remind them of historyJul 11 13:40
Omar871I mean really, what are we? Fools? :SJul 11 13:40
Omar871:DJul 11 13:40
Omar871;)Jul 11 13:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Official: Bilski Kills Software Patent < >Jul 11 13:41
schestowitzOmar871: no, forgetful.Jul 11 13:45
schestowitzIn politics too leaders rely on short memory spansJul 11 13:45
schestowitzSo that people re-elect crooked politicians and forget terrorism/war crimes/etc.Jul 11 13:46
schestowitzIn Microsoft's case it's forgetting crimes and patterns of behaviour that recurJul 11 13:46
schestowitzPeople are forgiving by their nature. It's temper-related. So Microsoft works in cycles.Jul 11 13:46
Omar871schestowitz: The problem is that even our short memory spans are full of evidence that this is a lie.Jul 11 13:46
Omar871schestowitz: The TomTom case is still less than a year old.Jul 11 13:47
schestowitzYes, OOXML just over a yearJul 11 13:47
schestowitzMassive corruption that was...Jul 11 13:47
Omar871schestowitz: The OOXML story is less than two years old.Jul 11 13:47
Omar871Exactly. :)Jul 11 13:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Wolvix-2.0.0beta2 - Review on Openbytes! #wolvix #linux #foss #slackwareJul 11 13:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Wants to ‘Save’ the World, Using Restrictive Monopolies 11 14:15
schestowitzMicrosoft trolls strike again: 11 14:17
schestowitzzoobab01:  This means MS is afraid of In Re Bilski. Need more material on  that. :-DJul 11 14:17
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why the United Patent Litigation System Could Bring Software Patents to Europe 11 14:36
ugufjhfjschestowitz welcome back!Jul 11 14:36
schestowitzThanks.Jul 11 14:45
ugufjhfjwhat you think about recent news from microsoft about mono?Jul 11 14:48
schestowitzI wrote about it hours agoJul 11 14:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] It’s Official: Patents Stifle Innovation 11 14:49
schestowitz 11 14:49
schestowitzOr this in short: 11 14:49
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_Hicham_no one in here?Jul 11 15:37
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schestowitzI'm still here.. doing postsJul 11 15:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Shill Warning: Eric Savitz/Barron’s 11 15:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] listening to Uh-Oh by Trey Owens - 11 15:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Groklaw Unearths Another SCO Scandal; SCO Heads Sued for Theft, Computer Fraud and Abuse 11 16:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Microsoft intervention inside Twitter (they already have people/twit trackers to avert criticism): 11 16:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] RT: @fsmag: always wanted to know how to theme #KDE Mahjongg. Now I do! - with space pics too. Thanks #Terry HancockJul 11 16:21
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schestowitzApple fanboy is back: 11 16:23
schestowitzWhy do people promote Apple like that. Doesn't Apple already have PR people on the payroll?Jul 11 16:23
schestowitzSee this baffling blind defense of Apple being pricks re Web stds: 11 16:24
schestowitzThistleWeb: "It being reported that ISP BT is no longer considering Phorm at the present time.   It is being reported that Phorm shares were down 46.13% on Monday afternoon." 11 16:24
ThistleWebschestowitz: yeah I read that, TalkTalk also dropped them like the follwoing dayJul 11 16:25
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ThistleWebthe BT thing wasn't because of privacy concerns, or negative reactions though, they still like the ideaJul 11 16:26
ThistleWebso the (apparently) 2 largest broadband ISPs in the UK drop them within days of each other, Virgin are still hesitantJul 11 16:27
ThistleWebnot a good week for Phorm shareholdersJul 11 16:27
ThistleWebI wonder if those ISPs got enough complaints from subscribers saying "when my contract ends I will move to another ISP who wont deal with Phorm"Jul 11 16:28
schestowitz*LOL* 11 16:28
schestowitzthenixedreport: yes, petokraus is on VirginJul 11 16:29
schestowitzhe's blocked from sites that blacklisted VirginJul 11 16:29
schestowitzAt least BT is off the hookJul 11 16:29
schestowitzBT pretends it has nothing to do with backlashJul 11 16:29
ThistleWebenough complaints like that, with those who could move, doing so, can make the bosses have a serious rethink as to whether phorm are worth itJul 11 16:29
schestowitzthenixedreport: the dephormed project helped blocking phorm victimsJul 11 16:30
ThistleWebof course they will claim whatever lets them save faceJul 11 16:30
schestowitzThis led to more complaints to ISPsJul 11 16:30
schestowitzThey got floodedJul 11 16:30
schestowitzI gave Phorm horrendous publicity too (with like 100 public posts). They deserved every one of these.Jul 11 16:30
schestowitzIf we sit back and let our packets and pages be harvested to be sold for cash, then it will be  norm, thus not reversibleJul 11 16:31
schestowitz  ><ThistleWeb> of course they will claim whatever lets them save faJul 11 16:31
schestowitzYes, many customers never knew about itJul 11 16:31
schestowitzSo they don't want attention drawn to the factsJul 11 16:31
schestowitzScenario (hypohtetical)Jul 11 16:31
ThistleWebBT still like the idea phorm had, just not all the attention it was gettingJul 11 16:32
schestowitzBT to lady: "we took down that massive antenna on top of your house to reduce radiation exposure"Jul 11 16:32
ThistleWebso I reckon it's dropped "for now" until the heat coolsJul 11 16:32
schestowitzLady: "the wha?? I had an antenna?????"Jul 11 16:32
schestowitzthenixedreport: so kinda like sw pats and 3-strikesJul 11 16:32
schestowitzLet the pinnacle hit firstJul 11 16:33
ThistleWebit'll be picked up again with another name, and "how we got caught" well studied, and learnedJul 11 16:33
schestowitzThen it died off (catharsis)Jul 11 16:33
schestowitzBreak into a house with a knife...Jul 11 16:33
schestowitzCome the following day with with a bazooka.Jul 11 16:33
schestowitzThey already renamed, no?Jul 11 16:34
schestowitzSomething with "Sense"Jul 11 16:34
schestowitzOr "stimulus"Jul 11 16:34
schestowitzbailout pig with lipstickJul 11 16:34
schestowitzIt didn't take in Oct 2008Jul 11 16:34
schestowitzSo they waited till people become complacementJul 11 16:34
schestowitzMaybe hired some PR firms for "perception management"Jul 11 16:35
ThistleWebevery company knows that some decisions are unpopular but rely on complacency that most customers either wont notice, or wont care enough to leave assuming it's the same everywhere else, or too much hassleJul 11 16:35
ThistleWebthey expect a small number to carry out the threat to leaveJul 11 16:36
ThistleWebbut they are usually replaced by new peeps who have no clue about the decisionJul 11 16:36
ThistleWebso it all evens outJul 11 16:36
ThistleWebwith the added profits from the unpopular decisionJul 11 16:36
ThistleWebmethinks Phorm didn't quite work as plannedJul 11 16:37
ThistleWeball the usual excuses come out "the vast majority of our customers are happy"Jul 11 16:37
ThistleWeb"it's a vocal minority trying to ruin things"Jul 11 16:37
ThistleWebthese statements could come out of a templateJul 11 16:40
schestowitzThe vast majority is not happyJul 11 16:41
schestowitzIt just does not understandJul 11 16:41
schestowitzLikewise, many people who curse at Windows don't know they have choicesJul 11 16:42
ThistleWebthe BBC show Watchdog has a whole compendium of different peeps using those words in releation to their storiesJul 11 16:42
ThistleWebthat'd be funny, to have a whole 30min clip with back to back excuses, with all the same excuses used over and over and overJul 11 16:43
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ThistleWebthere's one excuse I've heard which does sound plausable in some cases, "we've grown too fast, and didn't expect the demand"Jul 11 16:44
twitterHere's a good example of why Zoos are not a replacement for healthy environments 11 16:44
_Hicham_schestowitz : new IM application 11 16:44
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wallclimberHi RoyJul 11 16:45
wallclimberare you here?Jul 11 16:45
schestowitzHeyJul 11 16:46
schestowitzI just got the exhibit :-)Jul 11 16:46
_Hicham_mono is having an im clientJul 11 16:46
_Hicham_greatJul 11 16:46
schestowitzwallclimber: is this the complate exhibit?Jul 11 16:47
schestowitzYou wrote: "Back with more in a bit..."Jul 11 16:47
schestowitzI got ""Comparing Windows XP and Office XP to Linux and StarOffice" - with the attachments as plain text"Jul 11 16:47
wallclimberyes, that's completeJul 11 16:47
schestowitzThis one is valuable for the record on Linux exhibits. Then I'll need to dig up moreJul 11 16:47
schestowitzWe're almost completing the thing :-)Jul 11 16:48
wallclimberbut i just sent you another emailJul 11 16:48
schestowitzA lot of the exhibits are more or less banalJul 11 16:48
schestowitzBut the signal was separated from the noiseJul 11 16:48
*desu has quit ("Leaving")Jul 11 16:48
wallclimberthe next one is going to present a challengeJul 11 16:48
schestowitztwitter: human species comes before all. I mean, hey. We're like almost extinct at 6.x billionJul 11 16:49
schestowitzwallclimber: seen the SCO news yet?Jul 11 16:49
schestowitz 11 16:49
wallclimberyes, i saw it :)Jul 11 16:49
schestowitzI think SCO will die when Microsoft diesJul 11 16:50
schestowitzSo Groklaw ain't goin' nowhereJul 11 16:50
schestowitzIt's like trying to backrupt a kid when his poppa keeps sending chequesJul 11 16:50
wallclimberdid you get my last email about px07378?Jul 11 16:51
schestowitz_Hicham_: Mono IM... ha! How much? 128MB of RAM?Jul 11 16:51
_Hicham_schestowitz : didn't test it yetJul 11 16:51
_Hicham_do u want me to package it?Jul 11 16:51
*schestowitz checksJul 11 16:51
_Hicham_schestowitz : 11 16:52
schestowitz_Hicham_: yes, send standard output to directory /dev/nulJul 11 16:52
schestowitz*llJul 11 16:52
_Hicham_the galaxium project have been started in 2003Jul 11 16:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[fsmag] Always loved Google Chrome browser. Now it will become a full OS: 11 16:53
schestowitzwallclimber: I have: Jul 11 16:53
schestowitz"FY 03 IMPERATIVESJul 11 16:53
schestowitz    * win Against Linux .. Jul 11 16:53
schestowitz    * Winning against Linux: government, education, enterprise, embedded Jul 11 16:53
schestowitz    * SRPJF: OEMs hiding our innovations; Work to deliver, & comply Jul 11 16:53
schestowitz    * Emerging markets plan - Linux, other OSs, and piracy: ideas welcome Jul 11 16:53
schestowitz    * Piracy: How to make progress (and yet balance with Linux) "Jul 11 16:53
schestowitzwallclimber: I'll do PNGs of the graphics and post the text in between.Jul 11 16:54
schestowitzLike I did for EDGI exhibitsJul 11 16:54
wallclimberbut many of the graphics are unreadable, would you like clean versions?Jul 11 16:55
wallclimbersome of those graphs won't work as plain textJul 11 16:57
_Hicham_mono is very widespreadJul 11 16:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] computer running like slug because of gmail. switched to basic HTML view and all is suddenly well. ff 3.0 and 3.5. anyone else seen this?Jul 11 16:59
schestowitz_Hicham_: Galaxium just been added to 11 16:59
schestowitzwallclimber: that's the best we can achieveJul 11 17:00
schestowitzRaw materialJul 11 17:00
schestowitz_Hicham_: /s/mono/ubuntu/Jul 11 17:00
wallclimberI could do clean renderings of the ugly graphs...Jul 11 17:01
wallclimberduplicate them exactlyJul 11 17:01
wallclimber?Jul 11 17:01
wallclimberwould that be helpful?Jul 11 17:01
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_Hicham_schestowitz : mono is going to enter kde soonJul 11 17:03
wallclimbermono as default in kde?Jul 11 17:04
blankthemuffinIt's the domino effect, communism, I mean, mono, is going to spread through the asia pacific, I mean linux ecosystem and destroy democracy, oops I mean linux.Jul 11 17:05
schestowitz_Hicham_: any link?Jul 11 17:05
blankthemuffintime to go to war in vietnam, I mean boycott novellJul 11 17:05
schestowitzwallclimber: maybe contrast modificationsJul 11 17:05
schestowitzLike in the GIMP..Jul 11 17:05
schestowitzwallclimber: not probableJul 11 17:05
schestowitzKDE listens to RMSJul 11 17:05
schestowitzAnd SFLCJul 11 17:05
schestowitzThey didn't even touch OOXML because of the SFLCJul 11 17:06
wallclimberheh, nobody should touch OOXMLJul 11 17:06
schestowitzblankthemuffin: yeah, you mono-loving lurkers are really in this channel to help *sigh*Jul 11 17:06
schestowitzwallclimber: someone mailed me a docx yesterdayJul 11 17:07
schestowitzFirst time everJul 11 17:07
schestowitzBut there was a PDF tooJul 11 17:07
blankthemuffinI just thought it an interesting analogy.Jul 11 17:07
wallclimberok, i'm off to work on the pdf - have fun with the trolls (I know, they are not fun at all)Jul 11 17:07
schestowitzPeople should resist this, maybe linking to a fact sheet about OOXML being part of a crime and a fraudJul 11 17:07
schestowitzBut it's built into MSO07Jul 11 17:07
schestowitzWhich essnetially means one can buy fraud on a shelf ;-)Jul 11 17:07
twitterPoison Pen collection is updated. 11 17:08
schestowitzMicrosoft could get away with letters from dead people, so...Jul 11 17:08
schestowitztwitter: Savitz?Jul 11 17:08
twitteryesJul 11 17:08
schestowitzLong overdueJul 11 17:08
twitterNice write up.Jul 11 17:08
schestowitzHe's in financial pressJul 11 17:08
schestowitzNot technology presJul 11 17:08
schestowitzhe boosts MSFTJul 11 17:08
schestowitzBrian C from Forbes does the same thingJul 11 17:08
twitterYes, just the kind of people who belong in my Poison Pen collection.Jul 11 17:08
*_Hicham_ has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5/20090630173237]")Jul 11 17:09
twitterMossberg in the Wall Street Journal.Jul 11 17:09
schestowitzwallclimber: thanks!Jul 11 17:09
twitterThey have all guided people into the M$ camp.Jul 11 17:09
schestowitzIt's a great service by all means and being so old means it's immortal evidence.Jul 11 17:09
wallclimberyou're welcome :) bye!Jul 11 17:09
*wallclimber has quit ("Ex-Chat")Jul 11 17:10
schestowitzThere's another new oneJul 11 17:10
schestowitzEatonJul 11 17:10
schestowitzFrom the fan blog of MS at Seattle P-IJul 11 17:10
schestowitzHe's new to it all based on a Google searchJul 11 17:10
schestowitzHis job is to laud MSJul 11 17:10
blankthemuffinI think you guys need to figure out if your aim is to show problems with Mono, and help obtain solutions, or destroy microsoft and everything related to it.Jul 11 17:10
schestowitzSaturate the news/press with Mcirosoft praiseJul 11 17:10
twitterThey need new people.  The old ones are worn out.Jul 11 17:10
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twitterCan you imagine how sore people are who bought into M$FT in 2006?Jul 11 17:11
schestowitzByfield at it again:Jul 11 17:11
schestowitz 11 17:11
schestowitzHe asked for my commentJul 11 17:11
schestowitzDidn't publish it thoughJul 11 17:11
schestowitzMaybe it was too unsupportive of his thesisJul 11 17:11
twitterByfield is like that.  He deleted all of my comments from his blogs.Jul 11 17:11
schestowitztwitter: yes, I'll show you somethingJul 11 17:11
schestowitzMicrosoft scammed many moms and pops into giving them moneyJul 11 17:12
*blankthemuffin ( has left #boycottnovell ("oh god the hypocrisy is unbearable.")Jul 11 17:12
twittermono a "landmark"?Jul 11 17:13
twitterWould he say that Java is a free software landmark?Jul 11 17:13
twitteritmanagement seems to be one of those websites that blows out all of Lenny's browsers.Jul 11 17:14
twitterDid you look into that issue I saw last week?Jul 11 17:14
schestowitzI've been trying to find (in vain) an old discussion: 11 17:15
schestowitzJose wrote in 2008 about the Gates Foundation and Microsoft -- how they scam people to put their money in, which Microsoft will later stealJul 11 17:16
schestowitzWith more time I could find itJul 11 17:16
twitterI'll dig it up.Jul 11 17:16
schestowitzHe spoke about "B&M Foundary"Jul 11 17:16
schestowitzWait. I can find itJul 11 17:16
schestowitzB&M FoundryJul 11 17:17
twitterit management spins for 100 seconds on netsurf.  contacted but 0 bytes received.Jul 11 17:17
twitterthe ugly javascript eats up 65% of my CPUJul 11 17:17
twittera lot of big publisher sites and blogs associated with have done something that does this to all the free software browsers in Lenny.Jul 11 17:18
schestowitzFound itJul 11 17:19
schestowitzIt starts here: 11 17:19
twitterSame result happened with FF on Solaris out of state, so I know it's not just me and my setup.Jul 11 17:19
schestowitzIn Korea, only old people use JavaScript while browsing (Slashdot humour)Jul 11 17:20
twitterYep, same result as before.  After 180 seconds, Byfield's silly article finally loaded on Netsurf.Jul 11 17:20
twitterI gave up trying to open it with Konq.Jul 11 17:20
twitterI know the same thing happens with Iceweasel and Ephiphany.Jul 11 17:20
twitterOpps, I spoke to soon.  Netsurf errored out.Jul 11 17:21
_Hicham_javascript is inevitableJul 11 17:21
_Hicham_everything runs with javascriptJul 11 17:21
twitterless than 1 byte over 187 seconds.  3/3 stylesheets, zero objects.Jul 11 17:22
twitterI think it's some kind of IE only garbage they have all slipped in because IE6 at work loads them.Jul 11 17:22
fewaschestowitz, i dont get itJul 11 17:22
twitterSo, I'm unable to look at Byfiled's latest bullshit.Jul 11 17:23
*_Hicham_ has quit ("So long and thanks for all the IRC - telepathy-idle IRC Connection Manager for Telepathy -")Jul 11 17:24
twitterI suppose his affiliations are clear enough because he uses the M$ style "filename.htm" instead of the normal "filename.html" or simply "filename"Jul 11 17:26
fewalol INDEX.HTMJul 11 17:29
fewaand its actually FILENM~.HTMJul 11 17:29
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schestowitzHeh.Jul 11 17:31
twittervery interesting IRC log there, Roy.  I remember it, but looking back at it again is refreshing.  No wonder the trolls crowd IRC today.Jul 11 17:36
schestowitzSys-con is spamming Google News, stillJul 11 17:39
_Hicham_schestowitz, do u know Diablo-D3?Jul 11 17:39
schestowitzIt's a trollJul 11 17:39
*pk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jul 11 17:39
schestowitzanti-BN troll, pro extremistsJul 11 17:39
schestowitzI trest him like I treat NRA enthusiastsJul 11 17:40
fewaseems kinda like Daemon-**Jul 11 17:40
fewabut not same personJul 11 17:40
schestowitzDamn. I replied to Paul a day too late. 11 17:41
schestowitzhe would have balanced the article with remarks from BN, but I was awayJul 11 17:41
schestowitzfewa: no, not him. Daemon** is innocent in comparisonJul 11 17:41
fewawell i just came backJul 11 17:41
fewai was on vacatioJul 11 17:42
schestowitz* daemonfc :No such nick/channelJul 11 17:42
schestowitz* daemonxp :No such nick/channelJul 11 17:42
schestowitz* DaemonFC :No such nick/channelJul 11 17:42
schestowitz* DaemonXP :No such nick/channelJul 11 17:42
schestowitzHe seems to have left IRC for nowJul 11 17:42
schestowitzGot banned for all the channelsJul 11 17:42
schestowitzWe were probably the last to tolerate himJul 11 17:42
schestowitzHe trolled other channelsJul 11 17:42
schestowitzLike the Linux FS onesJul 11 17:42
schestowitzextXJul 11 17:42
twitterdeamonxp probably nyshifted.Jul 11 17:42
schestowitzCould beJul 11 17:43
twitterbut deamonxp was especially bold in linking to movies of himself.Jul 11 17:43
_Hicham_or he changed his comcast connectionJul 11 17:43
twitterhis whole set up was elaborate.  came on like someone unhappy with non free software support issues and angry at M$ for intimidating him, ended up spamming the world with M$ propaganda and Vista screen shots.Jul 11 17:44
twitterhmmmm, I give up.  Not even wget can download Bruce Byfield.Jul 11 17:45
_Hicham_twitter : what do u want to download ?Jul 11 17:45
fewaand mindless idle chatterJul 11 17:45
schestowitztwitter: he was a poster, I think, not a shillJul 11 17:45
schestowitz*poser I meanJul 11 17:45
_Hicham_he liked to get some attentionJul 11 17:46
fewahe said he worked in tech supportJul 11 17:46
_Hicham_DaemonXP in tech support ?Jul 11 17:46
twitterI'm not sure what he was other than a liar.Jul 11 17:46
_Hicham_hahahahahahahahahahahahaJul 11 17:46
schestowitzHe probably provoked the FS channels tooJul 11 17:46
schestowitzWhat better way than to attack the subject?Jul 11 17:46
schestowitz_Hicham_: he's in tech support without the "Tech"Jul 11 17:47
schestowitzRitalin and sofaJul 11 17:47
schestowitz[and cat, duh!]Jul 11 17:47
schestowitzHahahaha:* 11 17:48
twitternow that is funny -> "  Novell, Inc. wishes to clarify that it is continuing to operate the company in the best interest of shareholders and has no current plans to sell the company"Jul 11 17:49
schestowitzMicrosoft's [ish] Eric Lai plays the FUD card (Linux -> fragmentation): 11 17:53
schestowitztwitter: had Novell cared about shareholders, it would sellJul 11 17:54
schestowitzAnd sources tell me that already sell partsJul 11 17:54
schestowitzBut I can't publish rumoursJul 11 17:54
schestowitzI keep them flagged though for future use when it's safeJul 11 17:54
fewa"Six experts close to Linux weigh in", aka stacked cardsJul 11 17:55
twitterBlack is White and White is Black.  When there are lots of programs for GNU/Linux it's "fragmentation" and "confusing." When the same is true for M$, it's because Windows rocks.Jul 11 17:55
twitterOf course the free software options all get along much better than the non free software options do.Jul 11 17:56
fewamanufacturing pre-opinionsJul 11 17:57
schestowitzFurther evidence that Pakistan tortured suspects for Britain < >Jul 11 17:57
schestowitzfewa: who else to ask though?Jul 11 17:57
twitterthe comparison can't be made directly because gnu/linux always wins.  Who cares if you can "chose" between $1000 programs in the Windoze world, when you have a choice of equally functional software you can really own in the gnu/linux world?Jul 11 17:58
twitterM$'s marketing effort is very expensive.  Anyone who bothers to use free software soon finds out M$ is full of beans.  The typical reaction is white hot anger after a few months as the magnitude of the lies becomes obvious.Jul 11 18:00
twitterIt costs a lot of money to trick people like that.Jul 11 18:00
fewayepJul 11 18:00
twitterI once rough estimated it at a billion dollars a month.Jul 11 18:01
fewathats why they have to create a prejudiceJul 11 18:01
fewaa mythology of liesJul 11 18:01
_Hicham_"Get the Facts"Jul 11 18:01
_Hicham_"Linux costs a lot compared to Windows"Jul 11 18:01
twitterThey also have to punish OEMs and retailers constantly.Jul 11 18:01
twitterI don't think they can keep it up much longer.Jul 11 18:02
_Hicham_"There is no tech support in Linux"Jul 11 18:02
_Hicham_when did this compaign finish Roy?Jul 11 18:02
twitterAs the economy goes further south in the Western world, the last thing people want is a $400 OS.Jul 11 18:02
twitterI wonder how Best Buy is doing.  They are one of the last big box stores doing computers on the floor.Jul 11 18:03
twitterWalmart and Target scaled back big time.Jul 11 18:03
twittermust have been losing lots of money on Vista failure.Jul 11 18:03
_Hicham_Vista is the sign of MS deathJul 11 18:05
_Hicham_vive SchestowitzOSJul 11 18:05
fewadid M$ still kill Walmark Linux?Jul 11 18:06
twitterThey did in stores and probably did on line.  Try a search of for "linux" and see what you get.Jul 11 18:09
fewaIt ran a via chipJul 11 18:09
twitterI tried looking for a netbook last week and it was a huge pain.Jul 11 18:10
twitterOutside or RMS config, you are out of luck.Jul 11 18:10
macabe_Welcome back, Roy. Twitter: In our area people are looking to buy actual PC's for 400 or lower because of the economy.Jul 11 18:10
fewamacabe_, you can get decent PCs for that type of moneyJul 11 18:11
twitterCDW had 700 series EEE PCs for $140, cheap enough that I won't be too bothered if I can't get a reasonable distro on it.Jul 11 18:11
fewachiiJul 11 18:11
twitterI want the camera to work with Debian.Jul 11 18:12
fewashii*Jul 11 18:12
macabe_We recommend to them LINPC, Zareason, System76 etc.Jul 11 18:12
twitterThe hardware market is still laced with non free crap.Jul 11 18:12
twitterHere's one reason retailers are pushing $400 netbooks, they have been bought out by telco companies. 11 18:13
fewaid rather a atom over a celeronJul 11 18:13
fewastill think i will wait for ARM onesJul 11 18:13
twitterWaiting for ARM is a good idea.Jul 11 18:13
twitterI think RMS recently moved to lemote.Jul 11 18:13
twitterMIPS.Jul 11 18:14
fewaidk, my shitty ISP router is MIPSJul 11 18:14
macabe_Acer had a snapdragon out in the show. MS quickly killed it.Jul 11 18:14
macabe_IMO, MS wants to kill the netbook market.Jul 11 18:15
twitterShitty is often a mater of software.  My wonderful Debian P3 Thinkpad came with XP.Jul 11 18:15
fewamacabe_, no shitJul 11 18:15
fewathey want to decimate itJul 11 18:15
fewayeah the router has a bulky ram-wasting web appJul 11 18:16
twitterI wonder why HP still uses the Compaq name.Jul 11 18:16
fewai had to but it in transparent bridge mode cause it sucked too much, dropped connectionsJul 11 18:16
twitterOh, yeah, I already noted Best Buy's M$ follies and their 15% drop in earnings.Jul 11 18:22
schestowitz Call for limits on web snooping < >Jul 11 18:26
schestowitz"Governments and companies should limit the snooping they do on web users.Jul 11 18:26
schestowitzSo said Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the world wide web, who said that growing oversight of browsing could have a pernicious effect.Jul 11 18:26
schestowitzA greater part of the value of the web lay in the lack of constraints on what people could do with it. "Jul 11 18:26
schestowitzMaybe related to Phorm.. don't know yet...Jul 11 18:27
schestowitzHe openly complained about Phorm last year (timbl)Jul 11 18:27
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twitter->   the classic MSFT tactic of a positive headline covering absolutely disparaging content.Jul 11 18:39
schestowitzVista 7 Family Pack LMAOJul 11 18:40
twittersounds a lot like Byfield.Jul 11 18:40
schestowitz 11 18:40
schestowitzMicrosoft starts to sound like McDonaladsJul 11 18:40
schestowitzCan I have the HappyMeal7?Jul 11 18:40
twittertreat your whole family like a small businessJul 11 18:40
twitteror a franchiseJul 11 18:40
schestowitzOr use a real OSJul 11 18:40
schestowitzNot Vista with lip schtickJul 11 18:41
schestowitzTechnFlash gets paid by MS now, mind youJul 11 18:41
twitterM$ generosity, charging you for what you once took for granted.  ->"  letting home users install the operating system on multiple computers for less than the cost of buying copies individually."Jul 11 18:42
schestowitzBishop is now increasingly assisted by colleaguesJul 11 18:42
schestowitzSo the whole TechFlash gig becomes like a MS-boosting operation, not Seattle newsJul 11 18:42
schestowitzWindows is a jokeJul 11 18:43
twitterMost people think everyone in their family already owns software they buy from M$, in the same way people own couches, TVs and dinner plates.Jul 11 18:43
schestowitzNo-one in my family touched VistaJul 11 18:43
schestowitzXP is so ugly I can't touch the thingJul 11 18:43
schestowitzLive CDs ought to be replaced by USB thoughJul 11 18:43
_Hicham_XP is the greatest OS everJul 11 18:43
twitterI have to use XP at work.  The ugly is more than skin deep.Jul 11 18:43
_Hicham_XP have a LiveCDJul 11 18:43
schestowitzMS wants to make Vista7 ion sticks tooJul 11 18:44
schestowitzWhat was it called?Jul 11 18:44
schestowitzThey have a gimmick name for itJul 11 18:44
schestowitzAnd the VIsta/Samsung USB thing was called off, I guessJul 11 18:44
_Hicham_twitter is then a Microsoft shillJul 11 18:44
_Hicham_he uses XPJul 11 18:44
schestowitzThey made a big deal about it around 2006Jul 11 18:44
twitterready boostJul 11 18:44
schestowitzNever materialisedJul 11 18:44
schestowitzVista vapourJul 11 18:44
schestowitzRemember Ultimate ExtrasJul 11 18:44
schestowitzROTFLMAOJul 11 18:44
twitterSandisk complained about Vista not being able to use SSDs.Jul 11 18:44
schestowitztwitter: no, something else it's calledJul 11 18:45
schestowitzSomething live LiveDriveJul 11 18:45
twitterha ha.Jul 11 18:45
schestowitzIndeedJul 11 18:45
schestowitzSSDs work OK with Win2000Jul 11 18:45
schestowitzLinux is a leader at thatJul 11 18:45
twitter10 years late to the party, they come up with their own lame name.Jul 11 18:45
schestowitzMac? Haha.Jul 11 18:45
schestowitzmac are toysJul 11 18:45
schestowitzThey don't support hardwareJul 11 18:45
schestowitzOnly toys from APple 'R Us shopsJul 11 18:45
twitterVista fails on SSDs because of it's stupid indexingJul 11 18:46
_Hicham_vive Linux, vive SchestowitzOSJul 11 18:46
schestowitzDid a Google DC catch on fire???Jul 11 18:46
schestowitzvice _Hicham_ Jul 11 18:46
schestowitzSenior Packager extraordinaireJul 11 18:47
schestowitzHe rolls your package like he roll hashish -pJul 11 18:47
schestowitz*rolls ; Only tighterJul 11 18:47
schestowitzMS exploits Jacko's death some more: 11 18:48
schestowitzI find it sickening that people see the man die and think, "how do I monetise this?"Jul 11 18:48
schestowitzBut that's just how marketing people thing.Jul 11 18:49
schestowitz*thinkJul 11 18:49
_Hicham_every event is an opportunity to have money in the USJul 11 18:49
schestowitz 11 18:49
schestowitzLet me know what you thinklJul 11 18:49
macabe_They'll patent the procedureJul 11 18:49
_Hicham_schestowitz : we will make money from microsoft when it will dieJul 11 18:49
schestowitzstirner posted this here in IRCJul 11 18:50
schestowitz"Death! Money! Yaaaaaaaaaaaah!" 11 18:50
schestowitz*ballmer counts dollasJul 11 18:50
schestowitz 11 18:51
schestowitzOh wait!Jul 11 18:51
schestowitzIt's MS' DC that went on fireJul 11 18:51
schestowitzCan they borrow more money to rebuild?Jul 11 18:51
schestowitzBing is up in flamesJul 11 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another MS executive quits. 11 18:55
macabe_Had an early call this morning (1:36 am) for a DC in Tenn. (No connectivity) Still down.Jul 11 18:56
twitterShame on Todd Bishop.Jul 11 19:00
twitterVista 7 Hype log is updated with this shameful new M$ lie. 11 19:06
_Hicham_who has tested gOS in here?Jul 11 19:07
twitterAll of these lies while Vista 7 is still vapor.Jul 11 19:07
*Eruaran has quit ("No Ping reply in 90 seconds.")Jul 11 19:08
twitterThey promote it as everything GNU/Linux already is, something that's easy, light, cheap and can be shared.Jul 11 19:08
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twitterIt is, of course, none of these things.  It's expensive, bloated, and painful because it's just Vista renamed.Jul 11 19:09
_Hicham_twitter : do u have to use XP at work?Jul 11 19:10
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schestowitz"Vista" was a move to remove the "Windows"Jul 11 19:11
schestowitzThere was "Windows 2000"Jul 11 19:11
schestowitz"Windows 95"Jul 11 19:11
schestowitzVista was a departure from thatJul 11 19:11
schestowitzStained foreverJul 11 19:12
schestowitzSo they run back to "Windows something"Jul 11 19:12
schestowitzEven though it IS "Vista"Jul 11 19:12
*Eruaran ( has joined #boycottnovellJul 11 19:12
schestowitzAll the code is VistaJul 11 19:12
schestowitzWith some new stuff on topJul 11 19:12
schestowitzVista 7 has nothing major under the hoofdJul 11 19:12
schestowitzNo fast bootJul 11 19:12
schestowitzSo they could deliver "7" as a Vista "enhancement pack"Jul 11 19:13
schestowitzLike SE2Jul 11 19:13
schestowitzOr an SP... maybe Windows Plus from 95 daysJul 11 19:13
schestowitz"7" is a newer "DE" for the Vista baseJul 11 19:13
macabe_Still vista7 doesn't run well on current netbooks.Jul 11 19:14
_Hicham_I don't know why all netbooks in Morocco are shipped with XPJul 11 19:16
macabe_Same in Roch,NY. xp or vista home.Jul 11 19:20
schestowitzPressure on OEMs and other parts of the saga, including intimidation tacticsJul 11 19:26
schestowitzThere was demand for Linux ones, but they were not put on shelvesJul 11 19:27
schestowitzIntel needs to sell beefy onesJul 11 19:27
schestowitzI.e. not light ones with Linux, so they manufactured more with Windows even over a year agoJul 11 19:27
_Hicham_i will run a company of my own that sells only linux preinstalled note/netbooksJul 11 19:27
schestowitzhehe: <(Richard Dawkins Reads His Hate Mail)Jul 11 19:30
*desu (n=desu@unaffiliated/desu) has joined #boycottnovellJul 11 19:32
schestowitzThis one is stronger even: 11 19:34
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Omar871HiJul 11 19:39
twitterHello, Omar871, how are things?Jul 11 19:40
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twitterI wonder if he will now get M$ fanboys writing him hate mail for using  Mac.Jul 11 19:43
twitterDawkins little hate mail reading almost looks like a Mac advert.Jul 11 19:44
schestowitzhehe.Jul 11 19:54
schestowitzWell, he has used Macs since like foreverJul 11 19:54
schestowitzEven his 20 y-o presentationsJul 11 19:54
twitterMy favorite hate mail 11 19:56
twitter 11 19:56
twitter 11 19:58
twitter 11 19:58
twitter->   it would cheaper for them to have you killed than spend good money on employing people to mod you down.Jul 11 19:58
twitterThese were followed by links to family pictures of the person they think is twitter.  Very nice people these M$ fanboys.Jul 11 20:00
schestowitzReport Senor Anonymous Coward to the CIAJul 11 20:00
schestowitzThere are not many people with the name "Anonymous Coward" ;-)Jul 11 20:00
schestowitzCoward Jr.Jul 11 20:00
twitterThe CIA is a M$ Partner.Jul 11 20:01
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jul 11 20:03
twitterThe biggest M$ rip off of all is how M$FT was shoveled into all sorts of mixed investment funds.Jul 11 20:03
twitterWhen that ass in Barons was calling it a growth stock, banks and retirement funds were suckered into buying it.Jul 11 20:04
twitterThe collapse in M$FT value has robbed virtually every working American of a large chunk of their retirement.Jul 11 20:05
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twitterthere's something about this hate mail that makes me laugh, 11 20:13
twitterThe message seems to be, "My faith is that M$ is immortal.  Please go away so this will be true."Jul 11 20:14
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schestowitzCIA and MS?Jul 11 20:28
schestowitzAny links? I know of none that are obviousJul 11 20:29
schestowitzGoogle has Matt CuttsJul 11 20:29
schestowitzWho used to be a spookJul 11 20:29
twitterNo, I was just being a smart ass.  In general, the CIA and US have been promoting US "Allies" and "Interests" such as M$.  They all have great incentive in their 401k, individual retirement accounts.Jul 11 20:33
twitterThe CIA is frightening.Jul 11 20:33
twitter July 2009 (Urgent: Yes Men need money)Jul 11 20:43
schestowitzYes, seen thatJul 11 20:47
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twitterThe war on science seems to be effective 11 20:58
twitterThe group "anti-sec" is out causing more Havoc.  It's groups like that which make me think that our "Lefty" is just a misused name.Jul 11 20:59
twitterSomeone trolling in his name.Jul 11 20:59
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twitterha ha, China is more honest about why cell phones suck than US firms are.  -> " China ministry officials told wireless consumers that WiFi would not be allowed on mobile phones for fear that consumers might be tempted to illegally load VoIP apps and make calls over the Net, undermining carriers' interests."Jul 11 21:02
twitterduhJul 11 21:02
twitterDon't mention Ekiga or Asterisk!Jul 11 21:02
trmanco 11 21:02
trmancowowJul 11 21:03
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trmanco 11 21:14
twittermore of that stupid RMS is a sexist crap?Jul 11 21:18
trmancoyeahJul 11 21:19
twitterI suppose that's all the mono people have, mudslinging.Jul 11 21:19
twitterIt's going to go over about as well as the FU RMS from a week ago.Jul 11 21:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] why_google_chrome_os_will_turn_gnu_linux_desktop_winner: 11 21:25
schestowitz"Shame on you, Stallman."Jul 11 21:29
schestowitzHow 'dare' RMS say the truth about Mono?Jul 11 21:29
schestowitzSee what the Microsoft fans do?Jul 11 21:29
schestowitzThat "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guyJul 11 21:30
schestowitzIIRC he uses a Mac and he worked for AppleJul 11 21:30
schestowitzJust shows you how Trojanning worksJul 11 21:30
twitterLefty works for a company called ACCESS right now.  Does he still use a Mac?Jul 11 21:31
twitterI put as much as I could find in here last night.Jul 11 21:31
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schestowitzThat "Lefty" guy is hardly a Linux guy and he started this attack on RMS (and he trolls BN with hundreds of derogatory comments).Jul 11 21:34
trmanco 11 21:34
schestowitzI didn't follow the Ubuntu mailing listsJul 11 21:34
schestowitzBut I wonder what led that "Fink" guy to attacking himJul 11 21:34
schestowitzCan anyone check why?Jul 11 21:34
schestowitzIIRC he uses a Mac and he sure worked for Apple. He said something about Apple in the comments... so don't expect love for RMS. ACCESS is proprietary Linux AFAIKJul 11 21:36
schestowitzThe whole DRM party on Linux... like Android. The FSF is no fan of that.Jul 11 21:36
twitterACCESS's main thing is software for mobile phones.  When the browser on your cell phone is not as good as the free browsers you are used to, access may be why.Jul 11 21:39
twitterThey have done browsers for Treo too.Jul 11 21:39
twitterie, Palm OS.Jul 11 21:39
twitterI'm not ready to blame ACCESS or even the person by the same name for Lefty's comments.Jul 11 21:39
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twitterI'll waste some time looking up "Mark Fink" in ubuntu.Jul 11 22:04
twitterLefty's blogs all seem to attract 100 comments, as if they were written by sockpuppet factories in China.Jul 11 22:05
twitterI'm sure the search will be thick.Jul 11 22:05
twitterHere we have 117 hits 11 22:05
twitterI don't see anything about Gnome development on the top.Jul 11 22:06
twitterHmmm, ACCESS again 11 22:08
twittercompletely incoherentJul 11 22:09
twitterbut I have to agree, Lefty is a douchebag.Jul 11 22:13
twitterbig troll thread 11 22:14
twitterLefty has been making trouble there too 11 22:18
twitterah ha, the original Mark Fink post. 11 22:19
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twitterI'm looking at the Mark Fink posts.  Basically looks like a straw man to beat on BN and Roy.Jul 11 22:41
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schestowitzYes, looks bad.Jul 11 22:44
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schestowitzI thought about joining the discussion when I first saw itJul 11 22:45
schestowitzTo distance myself from that guy or clarify at leastJul 11 22:45
_Hicham_was it a troll discussion schestowitz ?Jul 11 22:45
schestowitzIt looked bad since the very first message. Looked bad for the site and for me. And people were angered, not persuadedJul 11 22:46
schestowitz_Hicham_:  you judgeJul 11 22:46
schestowitzI got PalinedJul 11 22:46
twitterI take it back, he's not so bad.Jul 11 22:46
twitterCertainly nothing like that ass Lefty made out.Jul 11 22:46
_Hicham_ignoring twitterJul 11 22:47
_Hicham_schestowitz : who was that guy?Jul 11 22:48
schestowitzWhich one?Jul 11 22:49
schestowitzI think that "Fink" is fakeJul 11 22:49
schestowitzSomeone told me what the name may meanJul 11 22:50
ThistleWebbat fink?Jul 11 22:50
twitterYes, the Fink looks fake.Jul 11 22:51
twitterIt's hard to tell.Jul 11 22:51
twitterOne thing both Fink and Lefty's blog have in common are giant troll threads with both of them in it.Jul 11 22:51
twitterThat might tell you something.Jul 11 22:51
twitterWe know Lefty is some kind of troll for his attack on RMS, a signature YHBT.Jul 11 22:53
twitterBasically, the whole thing has all the hallmarks of a Slashdot troll thread.Jul 11 22:53
twitterI've read 17 comments by this Fink character.  I did not see any of the personal attack stuff Lefty talked about.Jul 11 22:54
twitterMostly, I saw a bunch of "I hate BN and Roy" in the responses.Jul 11 22:54
twitterThat too is a common sockpuppet attack.  They pretend to argue but they all hate something in common.Jul 11 22:55
twitterThey drown out reasonable conversation and poison the well with their bullshit.Jul 11 22:56
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macabe_"Fink" is slang for another slang term "stoolie" or "stool pidgeon"Jul 11 22:57
twitterIn this case, they filled up the developer lists with 80 to 100 long troll posts filled with personal invective and crap instead of reasonable discussion.Jul 11 22:58
twitterWe can be sure the ubuntu people are turned off by the whole thing.Jul 11 22:59
twitterand BN is libeledJul 11 22:59
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twitterLefty only shows up in the "shameful censoring of mono opposition" here. 11 23:00
twitterIn fact, Lefty does not show up anywhere all year except a couple of GPL (troll) posts in February. 11 23:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] looking for volunteers to legitimise software patents = FAIL 11 23:09
schestowitzTrolls: 11 23:14
schestowitzCo-ops ensure ubuntu 11 23:14
twitterAh, if we go back a year we find Lefty right next to Shuttleworth in a June 2008 thread about "Making Deals with M$"Jul 11 23:15
twitterIt seems that Lefty shows up for ugly threads that deal with M$.Jul 11 23:16
twitterah ha, also libel for BN 11 23:17
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twitterdoes not seem to understand free software 11 23:20
twitterfree means you can do things the way you want.Jul 11 23:21
twitterAh, FUD control of value.  Shuttleworth explicitly denies that there's any Ubuntu codec deal with M$ 11 23:22
twitter->" There is (again) absolutely no truth to the rumour that Canonical has  done a deal with Microsoft for access to codecs - either in return for  money, or for some other quid-pro-quo."Jul 11 23:22
twitterunfortunately, Shuttleworth thinks M$ and Canonical can have shared interests, but that's not what I'm researching here.Jul 11 23:26
twitterBased on a years worth of Ubuntu developer list readings, I can say that Lefty is a participant in epic troll treads once a year.Jul 11 23:27
twitterI think his timing has something to do with Ubuntu's release schedule - Don't they put out a stable release in September?Jul 11 23:28
schestowitz"> Maybe Roy should make a site too.Jul 11 23:32
schestowitz"Jul 11 23:32
schestowitzIt looks like intentional provocationJul 11 23:33
schestowitzPosting such tripe in a Ubuntu developers listJul 11 23:33
schestowitzAnd he speaks as though he represents us or somethingJul 11 23:33
twitterIt's all fake.Jul 11 23:34
twitterHere's the last piece of the puzzle, a complete mirror troll - casting M$ methods onto the free software community, 11 23:34
twitterHe claims Fink contacted his employer, the kind of thing M$ does as a matter of routine.Jul 11 23:35
twitterThen he goes on to claim that nyms polluting the list are there because they are afraid of Fink.Jul 11 23:36
schestowitzI think it's maybe an agent provocateurJul 11 23:36
schestowitzMind you, I contacted the "Fink" address because "lefty" told me toJul 11 23:36
schestowitzI wasn't going to be in touch with that thingJul 11 23:37
schestowitzHe said that this guy harassed him and then told me to mail himJul 11 23:37
schestowitzThen he got a copy of my message to himJul 11 23:37
twitterLefty is lying -> " Roy was contrite, but equivocally so, I felt. He claimed he'd never heard of Mark Fink before that very day. He apologized, but refused to post a specific disclaimer about the site not being associated with Mr. Fink or his actions."Jul 11 23:37
twitterI've seen you say Fink has nothing to do with you several times.Jul 11 23:37
schestowitzWill ChromeOS make Google more loved or hated in open source world?  < >Jul 11 23:38
schestowitzIt's too far fetched to assume Lefty is FinkJul 11 23:39
twitterThe only reasonable conclusion we can draw from this is thatJul 11 23:39
schestowitzAnd that the whole thing was a setupJul 11 23:39
twitterno shit.Jul 11 23:39
macabe_IMO anything Roy would've done was not going to stop himJul 11 23:39
schestowitzGoodbye Ubuntu 6.06 LTS Desktop Edition < >Jul 11 23:39
twitterHow else would Lefty get Fink's signed message, if indeed that's your message.Jul 11 23:39
schestowitzHm.....Jul 11 23:39
schestowitzWhy really was it signed?Jul 11 23:40
schestowitzIf you forward a signed message or reply to it, does it maintain the signature blocks?Jul 11 23:40
schestowitzFrom what I got it seemed like Lefty was threatening to sue "Fink"Jul 11 23:40
schestowitzThe person who posted threats against Amanda from the Linux Foundation in BN commentsJul 11 23:41
twitterLefty talks about suing people a lot.Jul 11 23:41
schestowitzLefty has connections with thre LFJul 11 23:41
twitterso he says.Jul 11 23:41
schestowitzSo the paranoid might say that someone is trying to turn the LF against BN as wellJul 11 23:41
schestowitzTemperamentalJul 11 23:42
twitterThe letter is not dated, so Lefty presents the chronology any way he likes.Jul 11 23:42
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schestowitzAnd omits stuffJul 11 23:44
twitterI'm sure.  The man is a liar.Jul 11 23:45
schestowitzThat would make him also a hypocriteJul 11 23:45
schestowitzBut never mind thatJul 11 23:45
twitterhe tries to make himself look like an "Open Source" advocate, but he works for a non free software company.Jul 11 23:46
schestowitzLet's leave it at that. Remember it is HIM who dragged me into it.Jul 11 23:46
twitterand trashes on RMS.Jul 11 23:46
twitterIf that's your letter, you might want to publish the entire thing.Jul 11 23:46
twitterIf it's not, you need to disclaim it.Jul 11 23:46
schestowitz (Net sleuth calls eBay on carpet over shill bidding)Jul 11 23:47
twitterI'm relatively sure Fink and Lefty are nyms for the same troll.Jul 11 23:47
schestowitz"How can you be sure the price of your latest eBay buy wasn't shamelessly inflated by some faceless shill bidder?" It's not just an ebay issue.Jul 11 23:47
schestowitztwitter: I don't want to carry on discussion with this scummy man. it's him who keeps trolling BN for attention.Jul 11 23:47
twitteryes, he's using your site's ranking to inflate his own blog.Jul 11 23:48
schestowitzNo-one paid attention to him, so he started provoking those who brought him attentionJul 11 23:49
twitterI think the whole thing was a set up from the start.Jul 11 23:49
schestowitzRemember: it is HIM who told me to mail that Fink E-mail address and it is him who pulled stuff I sent to that address and published portionsJul 11 23:49
schestowitzLike pretextingJul 11 23:49
twitterhe created the thing from start to finishJul 11 23:50
twitter"Roy is destroying a free software advocate like me, trying to get me fired"  ....Jul 11 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Orange UK drops DRM < >. Apple still support DRM in many areas.Jul 11 23:51
schestowitzIs that a real quote?Jul 11 23:51
twitterNo, I made it up, but that's basically what he says.Jul 11 23:51
schestowitzWell, that's the message he's trying to convey without proof anywayJul 11 23:51
twitterHe says this, "  Mark and Roy and their friends are staking out, that someone who disagrees with you is fair game for victimization"Jul 11 23:51
twitterFunny, I thought one of the recurring themes here was how awful the M$ people are for doing just that.Jul 11 23:52
twitterPeter Guttman, Peter Quinn, Tim Bray and so on and so forth.Jul 11 23:52
twitterThe guy who ran Boycott MicrosoftJul 11 23:53
twitterLike I said, this is a mirror troll.  M$ tarring opposition with the worst of their own unethical conduct.Jul 11 23:54
twitterSo, is that really you as the first comment on his blog?Jul 11 23:55
twitterI don't think so, 11 23:55
twitterThere are 122 more messages there.Jul 11 23:55
twitterThe one purportedly from you is dated June 15th a month ago.Jul 11 23:56

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