| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme YouTube Now Bigger Than MSN http://bit.ly/2lIcFP | Aug 11 00:00 | |
| schestowitz | Is this Boston? | Aug 11 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DaemonFC | see, you can get results by politely getting the "go fuck yourselves" message across | Aug 11 00:00 |
| DaemonFC | without resorting to crude threats | Aug 11 00:00 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: Philadelphia | Aug 11 00:03 |
| DaemonFC | there's no federal law that says they have to take the filter down, but I know that some states have them | Aug 11 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | CIPA says they have to take the filter down if asked | Aug 11 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | (CIPA is the law that requires filtering) | Aug 11 00:03 |
| Balrog_ | http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/cipa.html | Aug 11 00:04 |
| Balrog_ | "An authorized person may disable the blocking or filtering measure during any use by an adult to enable access for bona fide research or other lawful purposes." | Aug 11 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | it says "may" | Aug 11 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | not "must" | Aug 11 00:04 |
| DaemonFC | that looks pretty weak to me | Aug 11 00:04 |
| Balrog_ | hmm .. I see. | Aug 11 00:05 |
| DaemonFC | I'd look for a stronger state law before citing CIPA | Aug 11 00:05 |
| DaemonFC | if it comes down to it, cite it, they may just gloss over it and figure they have to take it down ;) | Aug 11 00:06 |
| DaemonFC | not everyone pays attention to details like the word "may" instead of "must" | Aug 11 00:06 |
| DaemonFC | don't say CIPA requires them to take it down | Aug 11 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | There's also an FCC Order related to this ... http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-188A1.pdf | Aug 11 00:07 |
| Balrog_ | OK | Aug 11 00:07 |
| DaemonFC | say I request that you take it down in a manner compliant with the Children's Internet Protection Act" | Aug 11 00:07 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 00:07 |
| DaemonFC | how you say something is much more important than what you are saying | Aug 11 00:08 |
| Balrog_ | true... | Aug 11 00:08 |
| DaemonFC | if you become overtly confrontational and authoritative, they'll look more closely at what they are actually required to do in response to your letter | Aug 11 00:09 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they get IE kickbacks /j/k | Aug 11 00:09 |
| DaemonFC | you don't want that | Aug 11 00:09 |
| schestowitz | Gates and Melinda French give 'donations' to library, then.... /sarcasm | Aug 11 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: they "rent" computers for 3 years (IIRC) from hp | Aug 11 00:09 |
| _Hicham_ | http://www.techflash.com/Microsoft_filing_lists_Canonical_Red_Hat_as_PC_Windows_rivals_52370627.html | Aug 11 00:10 |
| DaemonFC | you want them to get the impression that the law may be on your side even though it's probably on theirs | Aug 11 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | and the IT department is not very skilled, imho | Aug 11 00:10 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft donated the computers at our library | Aug 11 00:10 |
| schestowitz | HP is very close to Microsoft, more so then Del | Aug 11 00:10 |
| _Hicham_ | Really, the graphics experience is now better on Linux than on Windows | Aug 11 00:10 |
| DaemonFC | on the condition that only Microsoft programs and file formats be supported | Aug 11 00:10 |
| DaemonFC | so you have to use OOXML and e-books are DRM'd WMA | Aug 11 00:10 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: what are the strings? | Aug 11 00:10 |
| schestowitz | Yuck | Aug 11 00:11 |
| DaemonFC | strings for what? | Aug 11 00:11 |
| schestowitz | Of course. | Aug 11 00:11 |
| schestowitz | No, you bear me to it | Aug 11 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | If you are lucky to have KMS enabled, you won't think about Windows, like DaemonFC | Aug 11 00:11 |
| schestowitz | They always ask for 'good faith' when they 'give' some 'gifting' | Aug 11 00:11 |
| schestowitz | You just need to dig a little and find out | Aug 11 00:11 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, that was it | Aug 11 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | HP is a big Linux contributor | Aug 11 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: and portable apps blocked? | Aug 11 00:11 |
| _Hicham_ | just like Dell | Aug 11 00:11 |
| DaemonFC | MS Windows, MS Office, Internet Explorer | Aug 11 00:11 |
| Balrog_ | there's Abiword Portable and OOo portable | Aug 11 00:11 |
| DaemonFC | they use SteadyState with XP | Aug 11 00:11 |
| DaemonFC | that way it deletes the acocunt when your time is up | Aug 11 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | flash drives | Aug 11 00:12 |
| DaemonFC | if gives you a countdown timer in the bottom right corner of the screen | Aug 11 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | they do that here too | Aug 11 00:12 |
| DaemonFC | no flash drives permitted | Aug 11 00:12 |
| _Hicham_ | Only person not contributing to Linux is DaemonFC | Aug 11 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | then how do you get data off the systems? | Aug 11 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | here they sell flash drives for $5 at the front desk | Aug 11 00:12 |
| DaemonFC | you have to ask the librarian to transfer the file to the front desk and copy it for you | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | same here | Aug 11 00:13 |
| Balrog_ | that's stupid | Aug 11 00:13 |
| Balrog_ | if it's true :) | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | has to be on their flash drive | Aug 11 00:13 |
| Balrog_ | what's the excuse? | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | viruses and spyware | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | they also block all IE plugins | Aug 11 00:13 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, as if viruses and spyware can't get in some other way (i.e. through the internet) | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | so you can't use Flash | Aug 11 00:13 |
| _Hicham_ | normal | Aug 11 00:13 |
| _Hicham_ | what do u want them to do? | Aug 11 00:13 |
| DaemonFC | the systems are so locked down that they are unusable | Aug 11 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | they don't do that here, though an old version of flash is common | Aug 11 00:14 |
| _Hicham_ | let you insert you flash drive? | Aug 11 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: do people use them? | Aug 11 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: flash drives are allowed here | Aug 11 00:14 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, to browse and maybe copy off a few web pages to the main printer | Aug 11 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | though apps running from them can't go out to the network | Aug 11 00:14 |
| _Hicham_ | Balrog_ : then they may be using some strong antivirus | Aug 11 00:14 |
| schestowitz | SO funny what Windows caused libraries | Aug 11 00:14 |
| _Hicham_ | like Kaspersky | Aug 11 00:14 |
| schestowitz | So many restrictions | Aug 11 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: no antivirus is 100% | Aug 11 00:15 |
| schestowitz | Rather than bring your own live cd... | Aug 11 00:15 |
| DaemonFC | when I go there to print something out, I e-mail the document to myself | Aug 11 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | find a 0-day exploit, install it deep in the system, they'll never know | Aug 11 00:15 |
| DaemonFC | and print it from their terminal | Aug 11 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | until it's too late | Aug 11 00:15 |
| _Hicham_ | Kaspersky in 100% combined with Least User Privilegies | Aug 11 00:15 |
| _Hicham_ | *is | Aug 11 00:15 |
| DaemonFC | or email it back to myself when I'm done editing it there | Aug 11 00:15 |
| DaemonFC | that way I don't have to keep buying their flash drives | Aug 11 00:15 |
| Balrog_ | you can't bring back their flash drive? | Aug 11 00:16 |
| _Hicham_ | if IE wasn't that implemented that deep into Windows, maybe MS wouldn't have all those problems | Aug 11 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: they used to do that with floppy disks back in the day, though that ended after they implemented a decent antivirus | Aug 11 00:16 |
| DaemonFC | no, once you buy it, you cannot plug it back into their systems | Aug 11 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | stupid | Aug 11 00:16 |
| DaemonFC | because it may have a virus on it | Aug 11 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | I'd complain to my legislator | Aug 11 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | you should | Aug 11 00:16 |
| Balrog_ | you're paying for it from tax money | Aug 11 00:16 |
| *Xarver has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Aug 11 00:16 | |
| DaemonFC | I should, but it would be a major pain in the ass | Aug 11 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | Government should stop using Windows | Aug 11 00:17 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: how so? | Aug 11 00:17 |
| DaemonFC | and I don't have the money to fight them in court anyway | Aug 11 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | I wouldn't develop a single bit of a program for Windows | Aug 11 00:17 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: or else? | Aug 11 00:17 |
| Balrog_ | _Hicham_: if my Qt program works in Windows, that's just a side effect ;) | Aug 11 00:17 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : or else they will be spied on by MS | Aug 11 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | my State Senator is a Republican who misses pretty much all votes anyway unless they're religiously motivated | Aug 11 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | I don't trust sthg that I don't have the source for | Aug 11 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | like the anti-gay provisions he keeps introducing | Aug 11 00:18 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: what state is this? | Aug 11 00:18 |
| _Hicham_ | I feel guilty for using Flash | Aug 11 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | I doubt he cares | Aug 11 00:18 |
| Balrog_ | and what about your local government? | Aug 11 00:18 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: as they found out in QUinn's department | Aug 11 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana | Aug 11 00:18 |
| DaemonFC | district government is all Republicans | Aug 11 00:19 |
| schestowitz | They'd oust opposition | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | ahh :\ | Aug 11 00:19 |
| schestowitz | Like a bunch of bullies | Aug 11 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | mayor was found abusing city resources by browsing porn on the system | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | this isn't a Democrat / Republican issue | Aug 11 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | nothing was ever done | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | wow. It didn't get publicized? | Aug 11 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : you should remove those Flash videos from BN | Aug 11 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | it got publicized | Aug 11 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | re-elected with 87% of the vote | Aug 11 00:19 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : it is a shame | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | wow | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | conservatives!? | Aug 11 00:19 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: Clinton was abusing public interns by surfing Monica, so/ | Aug 11 00:19 |
| DaemonFC | big time conservatives | Aug 11 00:19 |
| Balrog_ | those aren't real conservatives | Aug 11 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | vote for the Republican, not the person | Aug 11 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : no, Monica was hitting on him | Aug 11 00:20 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Mozila? | Aug 11 00:20 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: Mozilla video? | Aug 11 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | we need the sheriff from Walking Tall | Aug 11 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | this town is that corupt | Aug 11 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Some peopple don't have Ogg | Aug 11 00:20 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 00:20 |
| schestowitz | So I suppose both where possible | Aug 11 00:20 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : no, Flash video from youtube | Aug 11 00:20 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: that's bad :( | Aug 11 00:21 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : they must upgrade | Aug 11 00:21 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : MUST | Aug 11 00:21 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart runs the entire town | Aug 11 00:21 |
| DaemonFC | the Republican policies have forced out almost all manufacturing jobs | Aug 11 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | driven the wages down to minimum wage or not much more | Aug 11 00:22 |
| _Hicham_ | forcing People to move to HTML 5 is a way to kill SilverLie | Aug 11 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | every election it's the same crap | Aug 11 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | God and Jesus | Aug 11 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | then they go right back to surfing porn and taking bribes | Aug 11 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: what happened to separation of church and state? | Aug 11 00:22 |
| DaemonFC | HAH! | Aug 11 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | good one | Aug 11 00:23 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz : who doesn't have ogg ? Windows users ? | Aug 11 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: not that being religious is bad, but the legislators are supposed to handle civil matters | Aug 11 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | I would run for mayor against that guy but I'm certain they would have me killed | Aug 11 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: you think you could win? :) | Aug 11 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | If I got a decent chance to have people listen, probably | Aug 11 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | interesting. | Aug 11 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | if the sheriff's dept didn't kill me and plant cocaine and a revolver on my body | Aug 11 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | sure, why not? | Aug 11 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | maybe that's why some people carry firearms (I'm not talking about the criminals here) | Aug 11 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | :) | Aug 11 00:25 |
| DaemonFC | I may sign up for the primary election anyway | Aug 11 00:26 |
| DaemonFC | I'm about sick with our current mayor | Aug 11 00:26 |
| DaemonFC | things would get worse in the short term under me though | Aug 11 00:27 |
| DaemonFC | because I'd veto every wasteful spending measure and corporate favor that got handed to me | Aug 11 00:27 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Facebook Paid Nearly $50 Million for FriendFeed http://bit.ly/oLw15 | Aug 11 00:28 | |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: which is good. | Aug 11 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | and it's kind of hard to campaign on "I'll make shit worser for you in the short term" | Aug 11 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | can't they override vetoes though? | Aug 11 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | *worse | Aug 11 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: then omit that part | Aug 11 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | no, they can't | Aug 11 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | or say it but in a roundabout way | Aug 11 00:28 |
| DaemonFC | they have to send you a new version of the bill | Aug 11 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | that's good | Aug 11 00:29 |
| DaemonFC | I'd tell them "This, this, and this, gone, or I'll veto it again and I don't care how long this stalls us out because people will be looking at you, I promise" | Aug 11 00:29 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Aug 11 00:29 |
| *thenixedreport (n=thenixed@75.134.39.205) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 11 00:30 | |
| DaemonFC | I'm on reasonably good terms with the local Democrats | Aug 11 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | we don't hold any seats though | Aug 11 00:31 |
| thenixedreport | Hey everyone. | Aug 11 00:31 |
| thenixedreport | How goes it? | Aug 11 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | discussing local government corruption by Microsoft and Walmart and friends | Aug 11 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | I'd compare Walmart to the casino in Walking Tall | Aug 11 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | I really would | Aug 11 00:33 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: I don't have a problem with decent, non-corrupt conservatives ... but there aren't that many of them :X | Aug 11 00:34 |
| Balrog_ | our city is run by Democrats and many are corrupt | Aug 11 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart came in and bribed all the politicians in my hometown into ruining the town for all manufacturing jobs | Aug 11 00:34 |
| _Hicham_ | corruption is everywhere | Aug 11 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | then they came in, opened up a Walmart warehouse, and everyone had to work there for what they were paying | Aug 11 00:35 |
| _Hicham_ | show a place in the world that is not corrupted | Aug 11 00:35 |
| _Hicham_ | (except Scandinavian Countries maybe) | Aug 11 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart single handedly brought the average hourly wage in Grant County down from about $12 an hour | Aug 11 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | to about $9 an hour | Aug 11 00:35 |
| Balrog_ | that's not that good | Aug 11 00:36 |
| thenixedreport | Walmart relies on government subsidies. | Aug 11 00:36 |
| thenixedreport | If that goes away, then so does Walmart. | Aug 11 00:36 |
| Balrog_ | I'm a part-time STUDENT and I get paid $10 | Aug 11 00:36 |
| Balrog_ | (part time student worker) | Aug 11 00:36 |
| Balrog_ | (full time student) | Aug 11 00:36 |
| Balrog_ | :) | Aug 11 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | Grant County Indiana used to manufacture televisions, cars parts, furniture, you name it | Aug 11 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | now there's a lot of empty buildings, drug dealers, and a Walmart dsistribution center | Aug 11 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | wow. When did this happen!? | Aug 11 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | it's blighted and poverty stricken | Aug 11 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | gradually | Aug 11 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | when did it start? | Aug 11 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | Here it's no different | Aug 11 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | it started around 1998 and got to this point around 2004 | Aug 11 00:38 |
| Balrog_ | except that Philadelphia is a major metropolitan area | Aug 11 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | it's gotten slightly worse since then as all the little businesses that relied on the good wage payers are folding up | Aug 11 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | now it's about bottomed out | Aug 11 00:38 |
| thenixedreport | Where I'm at happens to be a college town too. | Aug 11 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart loves college towns because they can rely on customers using student loan money | Aug 11 00:39 |
| thenixedreport | True, but it also means they can't dominate. | Aug 11 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | and an infinite supply of disposable low income part time workers | Aug 11 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | with high turnover | Aug 11 00:39 |
| thenixedreport | Because let's face it. | Aug 11 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | Unions, full time work, healthcare benefits, retirement plan | Aug 11 00:40 |
| thenixedreport | If Wally World is on the other end of town, and what's needed is within walking distance, would it be worth it to go to Wally World? | Aug 11 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | the four terms that Walmart won't stand for | Aug 11 00:40 |
| thenixedreport | Probably not. | Aug 11 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | people do though | Aug 11 00:40 |
| thenixedreport | And believe it or not, I won't stand for them... at least for myself anyway. | Aug 11 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | even when the other stores have lower prices | Aug 11 00:40 |
| thenixedreport | The problem is that benefits can disappear at any time. | Aug 11 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | people drive right past them to go to Walmart | Aug 11 00:40 |
| thenixedreport | So I don't personally rely on them to see me through. | Aug 11 00:41 |
| thenixedreport | Not everyone drives. | Aug 11 00:41 |
| DaemonFC | management goes driving through town before a Walmart is planned in that town | Aug 11 00:41 |
| thenixedreport | There's Pine Street in Warrensburg. | Aug 11 00:41 |
| DaemonFC | and submits a report to upper management about how long it will take to run each business out of town | Aug 11 00:41 |
| thenixedreport | (Which the city counsel is trying to get rid of) | Aug 11 00:41 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: how does that happen!? | Aug 11 00:42 |
| thenixedreport | Again, if the federal government went bankrupt, Walmart couldn't exist in it's current form. | Aug 11 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart relies on loss leader items and unsustainably low prices | Aug 11 00:42 |
| thenixedreport | They rely on government subsidies. | Aug 11 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | til they run everyone else out | Aug 11 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | then their prices are higher than the other stores had to begin with | Aug 11 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | I'll give you an example, the Walmart here is trying to ruin ALDI, a competing grocery store | Aug 11 00:43 |
| Balrog_ | (and how do you know?) | Aug 11 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | so they send managers to ALDI to jot down prices | Aug 11 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | and make sure that Walmart's store brands are cheaper | Aug 11 00:43 |
| thenixedreport | @Balrog_, if this is the same person I think it is, he would know. | Aug 11 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | they also tell Walmart managers to keep an eye out for other stores doing the same thing to Walmart | Aug 11 00:43 |
| Balrog_ | thenixedreport: OK | Aug 11 00:43 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: that's not good :( | Aug 11 00:44 |
| *tacone has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Aug 11 00:44 | |
| DaemonFC | if you see someone in the store looking at merchandise and pecking the data into a PDA or whatever you're supposed to confront them | Aug 11 00:44 |
| Balrog_ | does Aldi know? (ALDI has a store here too; they're a European company) | Aug 11 00:44 |
| thenixedreport | If DaemonFC is who I think he is... he was once a member of management for Wally World. | Aug 11 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | they know it happens | Aug 11 00:44 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Aug 11 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | they don't know who is doing it | Aug 11 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart sends Loss Prevention to shop at ALDI and actually buy some things so nobody gets suspicious | Aug 11 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | Loss Prevention = Walmart store security | Aug 11 00:45 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: you'd better have something for self defense if you're going to run in the primary :) | Aug 11 00:45 |
| *Lns has quit ("Φ") | Aug 11 00:45 | |
| thenixedreport | So daemon, are you actually getting involved in local politics? | Aug 11 00:45 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Aug 11 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | considering it | Aug 11 00:46 |
| thenixedreport | Meh, give it a shot. | Aug 11 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | there's a device that Walmart gives out to their comp shoppers | Aug 11 00:46 |
| thenixedreport | It'll give you a reason to get out of bed in the morning. | Aug 11 00:46 |
| thenixedreport | ? | Aug 11 00:46 |
| thenixedreport | This one I haven't heard about. | Aug 11 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | it looks like a calculator so it appears they're just totalling up their grocery bill | Aug 11 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | it has a scanner in it though which records pricing info | Aug 11 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | you take it back to Walmart and plug it into the store computer | Aug 11 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | and it automatically lowers all of Walmart's prices | Aug 11 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | to about 5-10% lower | Aug 11 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | than what the other store has | Aug 11 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | how edo I know? because I've used one | Aug 11 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | when the store computer analyzes the data, it sends the reports to the department managers | Aug 11 00:48 |
| DaemonFC | and they retag the merchandise and set the new prices | Aug 11 00:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's all pretty automated | Aug 11 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | the store central computer is using Suse Enterprise Linux Server | Aug 11 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | and the data entry systems are using a mix of Windows 2003, XP Embedded | Aug 11 00:50 |
| thenixedreport | Interesting.... | Aug 11 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | and the handheld scanners use Windows CE and SCO UNIX | Aug 11 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | the older ones use SCO UNIX | Aug 11 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | the replacements have Windows CE | Aug 11 00:50 |
| thenixedreport | So when too many of one item is "accidentally ordered" it actually means that they're being under-priced to hurt the competition? | Aug 11 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | that's one reason | Aug 11 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | another reason you can get like "3 pallets of TV dinners" is because the warehouse is rotating stock | Aug 11 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | and those go bad first | Aug 11 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | they don't care if it's your problem because if they write it off, it comes out of their bonuses | Aug 11 00:52 |
| DaemonFC | and if you do, it comes out of yours | Aug 11 00:52 |
| thenixedreport | Hmmm. | Aug 11 00:53 |
| thenixedreport | Interesting. | Aug 11 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | so it's a "downward pressure" management model that makes you deal with all their problems while they make all the money | Aug 11 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | assistant manager is the worst job in that company | Aug 11 00:53 |
| thenixedreport | So if a can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli is set to $.88, does that mean they're trying to rotate 'em out? | Aug 11 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | no | Aug 11 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | probably means that your store went comp shopping and Kroger has them for 94 cents | Aug 11 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart is very methodical | Aug 11 00:54 |
| thenixedreport | Actually, there is no Kroger in my area. | Aug 11 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | well, it was an example | Aug 11 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | someone has them at a higher price | Aug 11 00:54 |
| thenixedreport | There's Aldi, Parker's, and Country Mart. | Aug 11 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | or else Walmart's comptuer wouldn't do that | Aug 11 00:55 |
| thenixedreport | I see. | Aug 11 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | *computer | Aug 11 00:55 |
| thenixedreport | Another question. | Aug 11 00:55 |
| thenixedreport | Say an "associate" who works overnight requests time off on a certain date. | Aug 11 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | your choice | Aug 11 00:55 |
| thenixedreport | Can any assistant manager deal with it or can only overnight managers deal with it one way or another? | Aug 11 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | if they have vacation time, it must be scheduled at least two weeks in advance | Aug 11 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | at your discretion | Aug 11 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | store or co-manager can override you | Aug 11 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | if they don't have vacation time and you need to bust payroll anyway, let them have it as an unpaid day off | Aug 11 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise, don't give it to them | Aug 11 00:56 |
| thenixedreport | So say a bonus is about to paid out. | Aug 11 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | when does that happen!? lol | Aug 11 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | that's jsut a carrot on a stick | Aug 11 00:57 |
| thenixedreport | Is it common to see people have extra days off about a month before that happens? | Aug 11 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | when a supercenter opens, nobody gets a bonus until the cost of building the store is paid off through several budgetary methods | Aug 11 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | so you won't see a bonus for at least 5-6 years | Aug 11 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | the store and co manager will | Aug 11 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | but that's in their contract | Aug 11 00:58 |
| thenixedreport | Let's assume the store is older than 6 years. | Aug 11 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | so you know there will be a bonus already and the only question is how much? | Aug 11 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | yes, the store manager gets 2% of net profit and the co manager(s) gets 1% | Aug 11 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | so if they start getting anal about payroll one month out, that's why | Aug 11 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | sometimes 2-3 months out | Aug 11 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | you'll see people getting written up for one minute of overtime | Aug 11 01:00 |
| DaemonFC | all kinds of crazy shit | Aug 11 01:00 |
| thenixedreport | Say people are scheduled for exactly 40 hours a week. | Aug 11 01:00 |
| DaemonFC | they're lucky | Aug 11 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | but go on... | Aug 11 01:01 |
| thenixedreport | Overnights that is... | Aug 11 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, overnights are the last place you cut | Aug 11 01:01 |
| thenixedreport | I see. | Aug 11 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | so you're doing good | Aug 11 01:01 |
| thenixedreport | So overnights have a little bit of leeway in terms of overtime as long as it's not more than an hour. | Aug 11 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | when you have to cut overnights, floor crew (janitors) go first | Aug 11 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | cashiers usually get cut next | Aug 11 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | then the stockers | Aug 11 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | then the hourly management | Aug 11 01:02 |
| thenixedreport | I see. | Aug 11 01:02 |
| thenixedreport | So that would explain some stores being short cashiers some nights. | Aug 11 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | if you have a store with third shift greeters, then they go before floor crew | Aug 11 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, happens all the time | Aug 11 01:02 |
| thenixedreport | Some stores use third party security firms. | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | the less encessary you are, the more hours you get cut | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | *necessary | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | they also base total store payroll on sales last year for this week | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | with major holidays being the exception | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | and inventory | Aug 11 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | they'll cut you to make that up later | Aug 11 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | you may get some overtime at the moment though | Aug 11 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | they'll work their part time people more hours before they start offering real overtime | Aug 11 01:04 |
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| DaemonFC | the computer does staff scheduling if the managers don't finalize their schedule by 00:01 on Saturday | Aug 11 01:05 |
| DaemonFC | and it does weird shit | Aug 11 01:05 |
| DaemonFC | then you have to grab each employee, take them aside, and get them to sign off on their new hours | Aug 11 01:05 |
| thenixedreport | lol | Aug 11 01:05 |
| DaemonFC | and override the time clock to let them clock in | Aug 11 01:06 |
| thenixedreport | So if there's a shift for two hours.... | Aug 11 01:06 |
| thenixedreport | It was the computer. | Aug 11 01:06 |
| DaemonFC | major pain in the ass, you will be reamed | Aug 11 01:06 |
| DaemonFC | usually, yeah | Aug 11 01:06 |
| thenixedreport | Some stores automate the process. | Aug 11 01:06 |
| DaemonFC | I've never scheduled anyone for less than 4 hours | Aug 11 01:06 |
| DaemonFC | there's no point | Aug 11 01:06 |
| DaemonFC | they only say they do | Aug 11 01:07 |
| thenixedreport | In other words, the time clock allows the associate to enter a member of management to do the over-ride. | Aug 11 01:07 |
| DaemonFC | that way you can't blame them if they give you a bad schedule | Aug 11 01:07 |
| DaemonFC | even if they typed it in by hand | Aug 11 01:07 |
| thenixedreport | So they don't have to go hunting for a manager when the clock rejects them (due to a scheduling error or other reason....) | Aug 11 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, when they messed up the schedules and then basically admitted it, I had to fix them | Aug 11 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | and stand by the time clock, overriding it for everybody | Aug 11 01:08 |
| thenixedreport | At some stores, that doesn't happen anymore. | Aug 11 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | sometimes the co manager will get a bug up their ass and think they can make a better schedule than you | Aug 11 01:08 |
| thenixedreport | Mangement looks at it after the fact. | Aug 11 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | that's why that happens | Aug 11 01:08 |
| thenixedreport | I see. | Aug 11 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | there were weeks where I wanted to strangle her | Aug 11 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | we had this really bipolar comanager | Aug 11 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | she was annoying as all hell | Aug 11 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | and had a real "hands on" motivational approach | Aug 11 01:10 |
| DaemonFC | read "Scheduled herself on overnights to scare everyone" | Aug 11 01:10 |
| DaemonFC | I put up with that for over a year before I left | Aug 11 01:10 |
| DaemonFC | that woman will rip out your intestines and make balloon animals | Aug 11 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | and that's on a good day | Aug 11 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | her name was Dottie, so I started calling her "Hurricane Dottie" | Aug 11 01:11 |
| DaemonFC | after that vicious storm that one year | Aug 11 01:12 |
| DaemonFC | wake of destruction | Aug 11 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | all that good stuff | Aug 11 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | when she wasn't there at night I'd turn off "Walmart Radio" | Aug 11 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | tune it to the rock station | Aug 11 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.989thebear.com/ | Aug 11 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | got that in real clear | Aug 11 01:14 |
| DaemonFC | good times | Aug 11 01:15 |
| *Tallken has quit ("Leaving.") | Aug 11 01:15 | |
| DaemonFC | well | Aug 11 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | that's interesting | Aug 11 01:18 |
| Balrog_ | walmart radio? | Aug 11 01:18 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Firefox is recommending Windows Media Player | Aug 11 01:19 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: how so!? | Aug 11 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | Balrog_: Walmart Radio is the store's satellite radio network | Aug 11 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | all stores play the same music at the same time | Aug 11 01:19 |
| thenixedreport | brb | Aug 11 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | Balrog_: When you click to stream Windows Media, Firefox sends you here: | Aug 11 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | http://port25.technet.com/pages/windows-media-player-firefox-plugin-download.aspx | Aug 11 01:19 |
| DaemonFC | Balrog_: uploading a picture | Aug 11 01:23 |
| DaemonFC | http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4862/31482765.png | Aug 11 01:23 |
| *twitter has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Aug 11 01:23 | |
| DaemonFC | it does not recommend VLC | Aug 11 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | hrm | Aug 11 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | even though VLC is free software and can play Windows Media Audio over MMS | Aug 11 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | does the Windows VLC plugin work right? | Aug 11 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: why Vista7 anyway? | Aug 11 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | it does unless the stream is encrypted | Aug 11 01:24 |
| DaemonFC | probably why they recommend Windows Media Player | Aug 11 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | now that I think about it | Aug 11 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: is there any way to circumvent encryption ...? I know about RTMPdump but that's for Flash-based stuff | Aug 11 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | it hooks into The Janus/PlaysForSure Windows Media DRM | Aug 11 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | just like subscription tracks you'd get on Napster or whatever | Aug 11 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | ahh :( | Aug 11 01:25 |
| DaemonFC | so the streaming ausio is also Linux incompatible | Aug 11 01:26 |
| DaemonFC | but it will work on a Mac with Flip4Mac | Aug 11 01:26 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: Flip4Mac isn't DRM compatible | Aug 11 01:26 |
| Balrog_ | and WMP streaming works with VLC | Aug 11 01:26 |
| DaemonFC | yes it is | Aug 11 01:26 |
| DaemonFC | for streaming | Aug 11 01:26 |
| Balrog_ | /WMA | Aug 11 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | "Protected WMA" is unsupported by VLC | Aug 11 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | it has to be "unprotected" to play | Aug 11 01:27 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: can you link me to a protected stream? | Aug 11 01:27 |
| Balrog_ | or is 989radio one of those? | Aug 11 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.989thebear.com/ | Aug 11 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, you may have to ctrl click it to get the window to open | Aug 11 01:27 |
| DaemonFC | see if it works on Linux | Aug 11 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: I | Aug 11 01:28 |
| DaemonFC | or what Firefox tells you to do | Aug 11 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | I'm successfully dumping the stream with 'mplayer -dumpstream' | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | I've done that in the past for WPIT | Aug 11 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | mplayer is playing that stream? | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | yes | Aug 11 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | that's weird | Aug 11 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | VLC just hangs | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | but first you have to dump the stream that looks like 'http://www.streamaudio.com/stations/player/pages/newplayer/auth/GenerateASX2.asp .....' | Aug 11 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | I assumed they were using stream encryption | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | open the stream.dump file in a text editor | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | then find the mms url | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | and play *that* | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | it's convoluted :( | Aug 11 01:29 |
| Balrog_ | but it works | Aug 11 01:29 |
| DaemonFC | very :P | Aug 11 01:30 |
| Balrog_ | streams like that play fine with the VLC plugin | Aug 11 01:30 |
| DaemonFC | and the Windows Media plugin crashes Firefox | Aug 11 01:30 |
| DaemonFC | lovely | Aug 11 01:30 |
| *Balrog_ has quit () | Aug 11 01:31 | |
| DaemonFC | http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/4342/96347107.png | Aug 11 01:32 |
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| DaemonFC | now it's working | Aug 11 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | gah | Aug 11 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | the radio station sounds better than the WMA stream | Aug 11 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | Aug 11 01:34 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC : which plugin? | Aug 11 01:34 |
| DaemonFC | Windows Media Player | Aug 11 01:34 |
| Balrog_ | obviously | Aug 11 01:34 |
| Balrog_ | dump the stream with mplayer ;) | Aug 11 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | 64kbps WMA I assume | Aug 11 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | not much left of the stream at that bitrate | Aug 11 01:35 |
| Balrog_ | oh ... is there a way to script a dump for a certain time period regularly | Aug 11 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | jsut slightly better than MP3 | Aug 11 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | at low bitrates | Aug 11 01:35 |
| Balrog_ | and have it stop after a certain time | Aug 11 01:35 |
| Balrog_ | WMA sucks | Aug 11 01:35 |
| DaemonFC | listening tests show that WMA is better than MP3 under 128kbps | Aug 11 01:36 |
| DaemonFC | there they tie, and above that, MP3 wins | Aug 11 01:36 |
| Balrog_ | but what about AAC and vorbis? | Aug 11 01:36 |
| DaemonFC | it makes sense considering that MP3 was never optimized for low bitrates | Aug 11 01:36 |
| DaemonFC | AAC and Vorbis should be tied with WMA Standard, maybe a bit better or worse | Aug 11 01:37 |
| DaemonFC | HE-AAC is unbeatable at 64kbps | Aug 11 01:37 |
| DaemonFC | and that's part of the MPEG-4 standard | Aug 11 01:37 |
| DaemonFC | there's no license needed to stream it, so you should use that if your other choice is WMA | Aug 11 01:38 |
| DaemonFC | WMA Standard, LC-AAC, and Vorbis use a lot of the same design ideas, but vorbis encoders are better tuned | Aug 11 01:38 |
| DaemonFC | I would say the advantage would most likely go to Vorbis | Aug 11 01:38 |
| DaemonFC | meh, they're onto "Mandatory Metallica", I have everything from Metallica anyway | Aug 11 01:39 |
| DaemonFC | amazes me that they give Metallica so much airtime | Aug 11 01:40 |
| DaemonFC | Balrog_: Why would I want to record a shitty low bitrate WMA stream? lol | Aug 11 01:42 |
| DaemonFC | 98.9 used to do a lot of advertisements for "Twenty Past Four" hehe | Aug 11 01:43 |
| DaemonFC | those were always amusing | Aug 11 01:43 |
| DaemonFC | store in Fort Wayne that sells "tobacco" pipes and "tobacco" accessories ;) | Aug 11 01:44 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana law says it's not drug paraphernalia until it has resin on it, so they can sell pretty much anything they want under a "no return" policy | Aug 11 01:45 |
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| DaemonFC | I would never use IIS by the way | Aug 11 02:00 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz mentioned it on hat twitter ddos page | Aug 11 02:00 |
| yuhong | In fact, if you are able to attach a debugger at the right time, debugging the 7 CHKDSK issue should be easy. | Aug 11 02:01 |
| yuhong | In fact, MS has a tradition of providing public symbols for their OS since NT 3.1. | Aug 11 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | looks liek Walmart is hosted on IIS 6 on Windows 2003 | Aug 11 02:01 |
| DaemonFC | ouch | Aug 11 02:01 |
| yuhong | And this include CHKDSK. | Aug 11 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | not all of their site is though | Aug 11 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | some subdomains are on Linux and Apache | Aug 11 02:02 |
| yuhong | In fact, they later made it easy to download symbols thanks to a symbol server. | Aug 11 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart MP3 is on CentOS | Aug 11 02:02 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart photos is on FreeBSD | Aug 11 02:03 |
| yuhong | Something gdb still lacks, the best Ubuntu can do is ddeb packages, which has to be manually installed. | Aug 11 02:03 |
| DaemonFC | some of their international sites are on Linux | Aug 11 02:03 |
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| yuhong | Interesting, but what I am saying is that debugging the Win7 CHKDSK issue should be easy. | Aug 11 02:07 |
| DaemonFC | why the hell should you have to debug something you can't fix when they sold it to you as a finished product without the tools to fix it? | Aug 11 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | that's fucking crazy | Aug 11 02:10 |
| DaemonFC | sorry to put it that way but it is | Aug 11 02:10 |
| yuhong | You could do binary patching, but the best thing to do would to call CSS and work to create a hotfix. | Aug 11 02:11 |
| yuhong | That costs time and often money though. | Aug 11 02:11 |
| DaemonFC | Windows is "No user-serviceable parts inside" | Aug 11 02:12 |
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| yuhong | Well, unfortunately, yes, WFP in 2000 and later make it harder to replace system files. | Aug 11 02:14 |
| yuhong | The justification was that programs was incorrectly replacing system files causing the OS to misbehave. | Aug 11 02:14 |
| yuhong | They even stepped it up with Vista, look at the test signing Geoff Chappell had to do to get his PAE hack working. | Aug 11 02:15 |
| DaemonFC | areyou talking about illegally hacking on them with a hex editor and overriding Windows File Protection | Aug 11 02:16 |
| DaemonFC | awesome, sign me up | Aug 11 02:16 |
| yuhong | Illegal? Not always. | Aug 11 02:17 |
| M$ watch -> At the company’s annual financial analysts meeting in Redmond, Wash. July 30, server and tools group president Bob Muglia said “supplanting and replacing VMware is much more straightforward” than getting businesses to switch from other operating systems to Windows. Companies simply don’t have as much work invested in running applications in conjunction with VMware. Or, as Muglia put it, “It takes me 90 seconds | Aug 11 02:18 | |
| http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2009/08/vmware_acquires.html | Aug 11 02:18 | |
| yuhong | If you break DRM by hacking, then yes the DMCA can punish you. | Aug 11 02:18 |
| M$ thinks it's good to be a roach motel. | Aug 11 02:18 | |
| Data goes in but don't go out. | Aug 11 02:18 | |
| yuhong | Anyway, I recently did such a binary hack on msvidctl.dll to patch the recent MS Video hole. | Aug 11 02:19 |
| Balrog_ | bleh ... even Mac OS encryption is easy to get around and isn't so pervasive | Aug 11 02:19 |
| yuhong | It consists of changing a lea instruction to a mov. | Aug 11 02:19 |
| yuhong | I posted the details as a comment to one of MS's blogs. | Aug 11 02:21 |
| it's the intent that counts, not their competence. Why deal with people like that? | Aug 11 02:21 | |
| Balrog_ | URL? | Aug 11 02:21 |
| see above | Aug 11 02:22 | |
| also includes a fraud street analyst donwgrading VMware to "underperform" based on high share price and unlikely revenue. | Aug 11 02:23 | |
| M$ shills. | Aug 11 02:23 | |
| yuhong | Here it is, if you want to try it: | Aug 11 02:23 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Aug 11 02:23 |
| yuhong | http://blogs.msdn.com/sdl/archive/2009/07/28/atl-ms09-035-and-the-sdl.aspx | Aug 11 02:23 |
| thenixedreport | Working on my little computer lab some more. | Aug 11 02:25 |
| thenixedreport | I figured out what I wanted to do with the un-used computer desk (put another system or two onto it.... lol). | Aug 11 02:26 |
| thenixedreport | CentOS is growing on me. | Aug 11 02:26 |
| thenixedreport | :) | Aug 11 02:26 |
| DaemonFC | if they're not paying me to fix their software and aren't even interested in fixing it themselves | Aug 11 02:31 |
| DaemonFC | why am I going to attach gdb to it? | Aug 11 02:31 |
| yuhong | WinDbg/KD/NTSD/CDB is used for Windows, not GDB. | Aug 11 02:31 |
| yuhong | GDB is available for Windows, but cannot read the PDB symbol format used by Windows. | Aug 11 02:32 |
| DaemonFC | figures | Aug 11 02:33 |
| DaemonFC | a lot of proprietary software is designed to crash if it thinks you are debugging it anyway | Aug 11 02:34 |
| DaemonFC | which is why Daemon Tools has to use a rootkiit to cloak the virtual disc drives it creates | Aug 11 02:34 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise a lot of software will detect it and crash intentionally | Aug 11 02:35 |
| DaemonFC | *rootkit | Aug 11 02:35 |
| yuhong | Yep, see http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=141. | Aug 11 02:35 |
| yuhong | Not most MS software however. | Aug 11 02:35 |
| DaemonFC | Daemon Tools also has to randomly name its processes | Aug 11 02:35 |
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| DaemonFC | otherwise it can be detected by things like SecuROM | Aug 11 02:36 |
| DaemonFC | copy protection is becoming more and more vicious and interferes with the way Windows works | Aug 11 02:36 |
| DaemonFC | so Microsoft is actually providing them with supported ways of hooking into the Windows kernel | Aug 11 02:37 |
| DaemonFC | because the DRM drivers like Securom and Starforce used to corrupt the kernel and crash Windows | Aug 11 02:38 |
| DaemonFC | which alerted the user to the fact that there was something wrong | Aug 11 02:38 |
| DaemonFC | so now if you pay Microsoft a huge sum of money, your DRM driver gets signed just like you were a hardware maker | Aug 11 02:39 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft will let any exploitative bastards subvert your computer given enough money | Aug 11 02:39 |
| DaemonFC | they'd probably officially sanction spyware vendors if the public backlash wouldn't be so enormous | Aug 11 02:40 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: there's this guy who writes an anti anti debug extension for Mac, and explains methods ... reverse.put.as | Aug 11 02:41 |
| DaemonFC | so yeah, Daemon Tools is probably your best bet around that anti-user bullshit that likes to latch on to Windows | Aug 11 02:41 |
| Balrog_ | in most cases it's third party apps doing this | Aug 11 02:41 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Aug 11 02:41 |
| DaemonFC | means Apple has the same policy as Microsoft on this, apparently | Aug 11 02:41 |
| Balrog_ | though iTunes and DVD player do this | Aug 11 02:41 |
| DaemonFC | letting exploitative DRM companies subvert your machine | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | if the price is right | Aug 11 02:42 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: you mean about kernel drivers? | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | yes | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | absolutely | Aug 11 02:42 |
| Balrog_ | Apple allows unsigned kernel drivers | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | ahhh | Aug 11 02:42 |
| Balrog_ | they just have to have correct permissions or they won't load | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | so it's even easier to subvert a Mac than Windows 64-bit with "PatchGuard" | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | cool | Aug 11 02:42 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Aug 11 02:42 |
| Balrog_ | if you can get root | Aug 11 02:43 |
| Balrog_ | that is | Aug 11 02:43 |
| DaemonFC | at least with Windows, Microsoft won't officially allow it unless you pay them tens of thousands of dollars | Aug 11 02:43 |
| DaemonFC | you | Aug 11 02:43 |
| DaemonFC | you're saying that anyone can do this to a Mac, for free | Aug 11 02:43 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 02:43 |
| Balrog_ | look up logKext :) | Aug 11 02:43 |
| Balrog_ | the code is foss and could easily be used for nefarious purposes | Aug 11 02:44 |
| DaemonFC | it's probably equally easy to do to Linux, it's just that the motivation isn't there because the userbase doesn't make it profitable | Aug 11 02:44 |
| Balrog_ | and root access is needed. | Aug 11 02:45 |
| DaemonFC | well, a Windows program gets the permission it needs to do that as soon as you click on the Accept button in the UAC prompt | Aug 11 02:45 |
| Balrog_ | I.e. the app requests the user's password, which should happen only rarely (installs or updates) | Aug 11 02:45 |
| DaemonFC | but yeah, it sneaks in because it's piggybacking on a legitimate application | Aug 11 02:45 |
| Balrog_ | but UAC is waaay too frequent | Aug 11 02:45 |
| Balrog_ | that's how the iWork and the Photoshop Trojans got in | Aug 11 02:46 |
| Balrog_ | iWork ... was injected into the installer | Aug 11 02:46 |
| Balrog_ | Photoshop ... was distributed with a crack | Aug 11 02:47 |
| Balrog_ | both require root auth | Aug 11 02:47 |
| DaemonFC | mmhm | Aug 11 02:47 |
| DaemonFC | so really it's just like Windows except that it may not have gotten kernel access on Windows | Aug 11 02:47 |
| DaemonFC | because it wasn't signed | Aug 11 02:47 |
| DaemonFC | driver signing is about keeping the organized crime that hasn't paid Microsoft out of the kernel | Aug 11 02:48 |
| Balrog_ | driver signing is to ensure monopoly | Aug 11 02:48 |
| DaemonFC | so patchguard might protect you from a trojan horse that's not like Securom or Starforce | Aug 11 02:48 |
| DaemonFC | now if you're a kindler, gentler, more benign-looking organized crime with lots of money to dump in Microsoft's lap, you get into the kernel | Aug 11 02:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's really splitting hairs to not call DRM companies organized crime | Aug 11 02:50 |
| DaemonFC | the only reason they aren't outlawed is because they bankroll the election of public officials that make the law | Aug 11 02:50 |
| DaemonFC | you're starting to see some of that on Linux anyway, btw | Aug 11 02:51 |
| DaemonFC | I can cite an example for that | Aug 11 02:51 |
| DaemonFC | that Linux game company, what was their name? | Aug 11 02:51 |
| DaemonFC | they have an activation scheme | Aug 11 02:52 |
| DaemonFC | they made games like X2: The Threat | Aug 11 02:52 |
| Balrog_ | (for some reason kernel level DRM is uncommon on Mac OS ... it's more of anti debug code in the binary and code encryption, sometimes nasty forms of it) | Aug 11 02:52 |
| DaemonFC | well, if gaming on Linux takes off, that's the next logical step | Aug 11 02:52 |
| DaemonFC | infecting the kernel | Aug 11 02:52 |
| DaemonFC | as a precondition of installing the game | Aug 11 02:52 |
| DaemonFC | how will Linux defend itself against this kind of crap? | Aug 11 02:55 |
| DaemonFC | jsut the same way Windows users do? Hack it out of the installer first? | Aug 11 02:55 |
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| DaemonFC` | damn it to hell | Aug 11 02:57 |
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| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: Linux doesn't have a defined kernel API so that helps | Aug 11 02:57 |
| *DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Aug 11 02:57 | |
| cubezzz | piracy is bad though | Aug 11 02:57 |
| Balrog_ | but drm is worse | Aug 11 02:57 |
| DaemonFC | so in otherwords, just a new version of Linux can break their DRM driver | Aug 11 02:57 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Aug 11 02:57 |
| Balrog_ | especially kernel level drm | Aug 11 02:57 |
| DaemonFC | so they can update the driver right? | Aug 11 02:57 |
| DaemonFC | set up some kind of cron job to grab and install a new version | Aug 11 02:58 |
| Balrog_ | they'll probably stick to encrypted binaries | Aug 11 02:58 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: they'd either have to compile a driver for every version of the kernel that's out there | Aug 11 02:58 |
| Balrog_ | or do what nvidia does (provide a .o and some glue code) | Aug 11 02:58 |
| Balrog_ | or provide the source | Aug 11 02:59 |
| DaemonFC | so do you think that this is a primary reason there's few Windows games that get ported to Linux? | Aug 11 02:59 |
| DaemonFC | they can't subvert the kernel as easily | Aug 11 02:59 |
| cubezzz | no, the primary reason is money :) | Aug 11 02:59 |
| cubezzz | as in "We can't make enough" | Aug 11 02:59 |
| Balrog_ | I don't think so, because few Mac games subvert the kernel | Aug 11 02:59 |
| DaemonFC | well, id software has proven that it takes minimal effort to port and make that port profitable | Aug 11 02:59 |
| DaemonFC | so I doubt that this is the only reason stopping them | Aug 11 02:59 |
| DaemonFC | could Microsoft threaten to revoke their Windows DRM signing if they port the game? | Aug 11 03:00 |
| DaemonFC | and maybe that's why they don't? | Aug 11 03:00 |
| cubezzz | you'd have to read their contracts, who knows | Aug 11 03:00 |
| DaemonFC | and they don't make their contracts public | Aug 11 03:01 |
| Balrog_ | possible; Transgaming's Cider makes it easy for that | Aug 11 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | so there's no way to prove that | Aug 11 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | they could make it an under the table deal | Aug 11 03:01 |
| cubezzz | I'm sure some small shops don't mind porting, I've seen stuf at lgp | Aug 11 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | not even in the contract, just a general "understanding" | Aug 11 03:01 |
| Balrog_ | (I'm wondering if Cider rips off Wine, btw ... there's a binary floating around so it wouldn't hurt to check it) | Aug 11 03:01 |
| cubezzz | there's new stuff coming out | Aug 11 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | leaves their fingerprints off of it | Aug 11 03:01 |
| DaemonFC | if it goes to court and the contract is brought in | Aug 11 03:02 |
| cubezzz | example: poptop wasn't interested it porting rt3 | Aug 11 03:02 |
| Balrog_ | that would be an anticompetitive contract , or one intended to prevent competition by Windows lockin | Aug 11 03:03 |
| DaemonFC | you know there are days when I would really love to be a fly on the wall in a Microsoft-EA Games meeting | Aug 11 03:03 |
| DaemonFC | you know that? | Aug 11 03:03 |
| cubezzz | now I think they're gone, so probably it will _never_ happen | Aug 11 03:03 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft was piushing Games For Windows as a reason to have Vista | Aug 11 03:03 |
| DaemonFC | so I'm sure that there was some kind of an "understanding" that those games would never be ported to Linux | Aug 11 03:04 |
| cubezzz | the thing is game companies die pretty quickly | Aug 11 03:04 |
| cubezzz | so the window of opportunity is very short | Aug 11 03:04 |
| DaemonFC | EA has been eating them all up, that's why | Aug 11 03:04 |
| DaemonFC | EA is like the Microsoft of gaming | Aug 11 03:04 |
| Balrog_ | EA is very committed to DRM | Aug 11 03:05 |
| DaemonFC | EA is like this out of control monster that used to put out good stuff and now it's all garbage | Aug 11 03:05 |
| DaemonFC | and they just buy anyone who makes a decent title | Aug 11 03:05 |
| DaemonFC | to put them out of business | Aug 11 03:05 |
| Balrog_ | how can they do that? | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I fear has happened to id Software | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | regarding the ZeniMax takeover | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | Doom 4 will likely not be on Linux and will have Securom | Aug 11 03:06 |
| Balrog_ | Maxis is under EA now? right? | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | ZeniMax has done that to all their other games | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | yeah | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | has been for a while | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | so is Westwood Studios | Aug 11 03:06 |
| DaemonFC | and a number of others | Aug 11 03:07 |
| DaemonFC | the body count of good game developers killed by EA goes up every year | Aug 11 03:07 |
| Balrog_ | Microsoft has been doing the same :( | Aug 11 03:07 |
| cubezzz | a lot of things do tend to move towards monopoly | Aug 11 03:08 |
| Balrog_ | what sucks is that they get the rights to old code | Aug 11 03:08 |
| DaemonFC | so Windows and Microsoft certification is like a feudal system | Aug 11 03:08 |
| DaemonFC | where DRM companies come pay their lord for their annual blessing | Aug 11 03:08 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Aug 11 03:08 |
| cubezzz | well, no one is _forcing_ you to use windows :) | Aug 11 03:09 |
| cubezzz | coaxing yes | Aug 11 03:09 |
| DaemonFC | well, the idea behind Windows and their "ecosystem" is to create so many things that only work well (or at all) on Windows | Aug 11 03:09 |
| DaemonFC | that's the point, they can't "force you" but they can be "awfully compelling" | Aug 11 03:09 |
| cubezzz | check out tuxgames.com :) | Aug 11 03:09 |
| Balrog_ | obviously; most systems are like that | Aug 11 03:09 |
| DaemonFC | Read the 01 Jun 2009 posting | Aug 11 03:10 |
| DaemonFC | Linux DRM anyone? | Aug 11 03:10 |
| DaemonFC | video game "rental"? | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | no thank you | Aug 11 03:11 |
| Balrog_ | Qt and GTK+ and SDL and similar libraries help, but they're often somewhat slower and don't work as well on other platforms. | Aug 11 03:11 |
| cubezzz | none of the older games have that though | Aug 11 03:11 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: how to implement? usually it's by binary | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, online activation | Aug 11 03:11 |
| Balrog_ | signing / obfuscation | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | it phones home and sees if your license is still good | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | useless if that system can't connect to the net | Aug 11 03:11 |
| Balrog_ | still can be circumvented | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | or if their server goes down | Aug 11 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | or they go out of business | Aug 11 03:12 |
| DaemonFC | they've apparently stated that if they go under, they'll issue patches to remove it | Aug 11 03:12 |
| Balrog_ | ecxept for online only games / features which cost money for the servers | Aug 11 03:12 |
| DaemonFC | but do you believe them? | Aug 11 03:12 |
| DaemonFC | I don't | Aug 11 03:12 |
| Balrog_ | so ... time to take out the anti anti debug tools and the disassemblers ;) | Aug 11 03:12 |
| cubezzz | yes actually I do believe them :) | Aug 11 03:12 |
| Balrog_ | cubezzz: unless they get acquired | Aug 11 03:13 |
| Balrog_ | or something like that happens | Aug 11 03:13 |
| DaemonFC | I won't buy their games because of the DRM | Aug 11 03:14 |
| DaemonFC | they should know better than to try and shove DRM down the throats of Linux users as a business model | Aug 11 03:14 |
| DaemonFC | they'll lose more sales than they would to "piracy" | Aug 11 03:14 |
| DaemonFC | just out of spite | Aug 11 03:14 |
| cubezzz | it's because of the piracy :-/ | Aug 11 03:15 |
| cubezzz | well... | Aug 11 03:15 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: what about regular serial number based registration | Aug 11 03:15 |
| ha, the trolls think they know me. What amazing and self defeating venom http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1330609&cid=29006513 | Aug 11 03:16 | |
| DaemonFC | where you type in a serial number then it never bugs you again? | Aug 11 03:16 |
| DaemonFC | I don't care if they do that | Aug 11 03:16 |
| Balrog_ | cubezzz: studies have shown that DRM doesn't reduce piracy by much | Aug 11 03:16 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: yeah, that | Aug 11 03:16 |
| DaemonFC | it does deeply offend customers who WOULD have bought it | Aug 11 03:16 |
| DaemonFC | so I don't know why they are doing it | Aug 11 03:16 |
| digital restrictions... everyone loves those.... pthtft. | Aug 11 03:17 | |
| Balrog_ | DRM or serial number reg? | Aug 11 03:17 |
| DaemonFC | DRM | Aug 11 03:17 |
| DaemonFC | serial number is fine with me | Aug 11 03:17 |
| DaemonFC | that's actually acceptable, they should require a serial number and jsut refuse to support you if your serial is invalid | Aug 11 03:17 |
| DaemonFC | and you have a question for them | Aug 11 03:17 |
| DaemonFC | they used to do that, before DRM | Aug 11 03:17 |
| cubezzz | lgp didn't even have serial numbers for a long time | Aug 11 03:18 |
| DaemonFC | I can see why they would be upset if someone got it off bittorrent, didn't pay for it, and THEN wanted support for free | Aug 11 03:18 |
| DaemonFC | that's a valid complaint | Aug 11 03:18 |
| DaemonFC | they should just threaten to cut off support for that serial if they find it floating around on the internet | Aug 11 03:19 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: worse is if it's an online game | Aug 11 03:19 |
| DaemonFC | they can also spot phoney serials generated by keygens you know? | Aug 11 03:19 |
| Balrog_ | THEN they have to subsidize server costs | Aug 11 03:19 |
| DaemonFC | like the algorithm might spit out a serial with an R in it, but they never actually issued a serial with an R in it, or in that spot | Aug 11 03:20 |
| cubezzz | I'm sure a simple database could check valid serial's | Aug 11 03:20 |
| Balrog_ | DaemonFC: if they choose a good way to generate serials in the first place | Aug 11 03:20 |
| DaemonFC | instant fraud detection | Aug 11 03:20 |
| Balrog_ | probably but if they lose the database it's no good (that can happen) | Aug 11 03:20 |
| DaemonFC | games that have an online section and bann fraudulant serials from that section are OK too | Aug 11 03:20 |
| Balrog_ | better to have multiple algorithms that can be uses | Aug 11 03:20 |
| Balrog_ | used * | Aug 11 03:20 |
| DaemonFC | DRM that invades the kernel is never OK | Aug 11 03:21 |
| Balrog_ | yeah | Aug 11 03:21 |
| DaemonFC | activation for the offline part of the game is never OK | Aug 11 03:21 |
| Balrog_ | what about anti debug (stuff like PT_DENY_ATTACH) and executable encryption? | Aug 11 03:21 |
| DaemonFC | say you had no interest in ever having an itnernet connction | Aug 11 03:22 |
| Balrog_ | (though those can be defeated ...) | Aug 11 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | you wanted a video game though, and it had to check in over the internet every so often? | Aug 11 03:22 |
| Balrog_ | I understand | Aug 11 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | that kind of makes it a problem, right? | Aug 11 03:22 |
| DaemonFC | or the company goes out of business, it's 15 years from now and you find your favorite old game in the attic and want to play it again | Aug 11 03:23 |
| DaemonFC | you're screwed | Aug 11 03:23 |
| Balrog_ | of course. most games that activate do so only once though. C&C will be the main exception | Aug 11 03:23 |
| Balrog_ | if the game company goes out of business ..... there will be a crack or some method of circumvention | Aug 11 03:23 |
| DaemonFC | that's my main complaints about DRM, if it infests the operating system, or keeps you from ever actually "owning" it | Aug 11 03:24 |
| Balrog_ | that's how it has been so far | Aug 11 03:24 |
| DaemonFC | serial numbers by themselves are not DRM | Aug 11 03:24 |
| Balrog_ | what about activation contained fully within the app binary? | Aug 11 03:24 |
| DaemonFC | how would that work? | Aug 11 03:24 |
| DaemonFC | calling them on the phone to activate it is unacceptable too | Aug 11 03:24 |
| DaemonFC | that takes you back to what if they go under | Aug 11 03:25 |
| Balrog_ | that's how a lot of activation works. But it still requires calling them / Internet access | Aug 11 03:25 |
| DaemonFC | you know, after 2012, it'll be interesting | Aug 11 03:25 |
| Balrog_ | well, querying the hardware or looking in /proc ? | Aug 11 03:25 |
| cubezzz | yeah, I don't like DRM either | Aug 11 03:25 |
| Balrog_ | 2012? | Aug 11 03:25 |
| DaemonFC | to see if Microsoft will reactivate copies of Vista | Aug 11 03:25 |
| DaemonFC | since it's out of support | Aug 11 03:25 |
| DaemonFC | 2014 for XP | Aug 11 03:25 |
| Balrog_ | they should just release a sanctioned keygen then | Aug 11 03:26 |
| DaemonFC | need to reload the computer that jsut crashed? have to buy the new Windows | Aug 11 03:26 |
| DaemonFC | I guarantee that's what will happen | Aug 11 03:26 |
| Balrog_ | anti competitive practices | Aug 11 03:26 |
| DaemonFC | watch hundreds of thousands of customers up in arms because their Vista won't work and it's jsut because MS wants more sales | Aug 11 03:27 |
| cubezzz | heh | Aug 11 03:27 |
| cubezzz | I had this theory about companies who make virus scanners | Aug 11 03:27 |
| DaemonFC | there's still at least tens of thousands that use Windows 98 even | Aug 11 03:27 |
| Balrog_ | and will probably drive people to Linux or Mac OS, depending on whether they want a new computer and how much they wish to spend | Aug 11 03:27 |
| DaemonFC | and they should expect it to work until the computer dies | Aug 11 03:27 |
| cubezzz | "Hey Mac, it's been a slow month, release more virii" | Aug 11 03:27 |
| DaemonFC | they bought Windows 98 | Aug 11 03:27 |
| Balrog_ | cubezzz: ? | Aug 11 03:27 |
| DaemonFC | same with XP, Vista, or whatever | Aug 11 03:28 |
| cubezzz | Balrog_, that the virus scanner companies could actually make viruses | Aug 11 03:28 |
| DaemonFC | that's been a long running theory | Aug 11 03:28 |
| Balrog_ | I wouldn't doubt that | Aug 11 03:28 |
| DaemonFC | there used to be "virus making toolkits" that would show up on BBS's and people guessed that antivirus companies put them there | Aug 11 03:29 |
| Balrog_ | heh | Aug 11 03:29 |
| Balrog_ | though the Mac viruses so far have been LAME | Aug 11 03:29 |
| DaemonFC | nobody is really trying that hard to attack Mac users | Aug 11 03:29 |
| DaemonFC | virus making is just like one of the old UNIX concepts | Aug 11 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | if you can get 90% of the results with 10% of the effort, do that | Aug 11 03:30 |
| Balrog_ | yeah | Aug 11 03:30 |
| DaemonFC | if Mac had half the market, it would get half the attention of virus makers | Aug 11 03:31 |
| cubezzz | I am seeing more malware in general lately | Aug 11 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | Apple leaves critical vulnerabilities unpatched for months on end | Aug 11 03:31 |
| DaemonFC | if someone really wanted to, the Mac would be pwned, easily | Aug 11 03:32 |
| Balrog_ | though it's harder to write good Mac viruses | Aug 11 03:32 |
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| Balrog_ | then Apple will start releasing patches right away. I can see it happening | Aug 11 03:32 |
| Balrog_ | "Security Update 2009-XX is out" | Aug 11 03:32 |
| DaemonFC | then you're right up there with "Patch Tuesday" :P | Aug 11 03:35 |
| Balrog_ | almost | Aug 11 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | believe me, part of me wishes some terribly destructive Mac virus would hit | Aug 11 03:35 |
| Balrog_ | though keeping stuff up to date in general helps | Aug 11 03:35 |
| DaemonFC | just to see what Apple would say then | Aug 11 03:36 |
| Balrog_ | I could probably write one but I don't write viruses | Aug 11 03:36 |
| cubezzz | they'd also have to update their Mac Vs PC ads :) | Aug 11 03:36 |
| Balrog_ | could == am able to | Aug 11 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | the Windows virus thing is fairly overblown though, if you're careful | Aug 11 03:36 |
| DaemonFC | I've ran into a couple, only one did any real damage | Aug 11 03:36 |
| cubezzz | I had some customers get hit with Perfect Defender | Aug 11 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | that's over nearly two decades | Aug 11 03:37 |
| cubezzz | wasn't _too_ bad | Aug 11 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | I got hit with Chernobyl and Download.Ject | Aug 11 03:37 |
| DaemonFC | Download.Ject virus was the one that caught me off guard | Aug 11 03:38 |
| DaemonFC | I was browsing with IE 6 cause I just got XP (then on SP1) all set up and hadn't gotten another browser set up yet | Aug 11 03:38 |
| DaemonFC | and all of a sudden windows start flying open and something installed itself | Aug 11 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | so I formatted and install XP again :P | Aug 11 03:39 |
| cubezzz | well, I suppose it would be safer to not connect to the net until you're SP is loaded | Aug 11 03:39 |
| DaemonFC | that one was really my fault | Aug 11 03:39 |
| cubezzz | One customer I have has a win95 box, and we ended up just not connecting it to the net at all | Aug 11 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | as for TuxGames, it's cheaper to just buy it from the publisher | Aug 11 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | TuxGames seems to tack on about $10-15 per title | Aug 11 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | just for carrying it | Aug 11 03:41 |
| Balrog_ | be careful with Chernobyl ... it was designed to damage the hard drive AND the bios | Aug 11 03:41 |
| cubezzz | sometimes lgp is the publisher though | Aug 11 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, that was when I was using Windows 98 | Aug 11 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | and isntalling game demos off a CD I got from EB | Aug 11 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 7 is getting kind of temperamental when you go to install games meant for 98 or XP | Aug 11 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | next version of Windows after 7 might not even run them at all | Aug 11 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 95-era games, some work, some don't | Aug 11 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | no DOS or Win16 games without emulation | Aug 11 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | Windows is starting to lose a lot of backwards compatibility without pointing it to a compatibility shim that pretends it is XP or Vista | Aug 11 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | and even that may not fully work | Aug 11 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | my guess is that they've removed the functionality from Windows itself and moved it to a seperae environment where those features are still supported | Aug 11 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | I've never had to use shims like this before | Aug 11 03:46 |
| cubezzz | I just don't use windows for personal use | Aug 11 03:47 |
| cubezzz | I've had enough :) | Aug 11 03:47 |
| Balrog_ | I don't use windows at all, pretty much | Aug 11 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | stripping away the deprecated crap on Windows is a risky thing to do | Aug 11 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | because lots of programs depend on it to run | Aug 11 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | so Windows gets bigger and buggier, or you have to move that functionality to an "XP-like personality" | Aug 11 03:48 |
| Balrog_ | apple did it with OS X | Aug 11 03:48 |
| Balrog_ | broke all the old apps in the process | Aug 11 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, but thats Apple | Aug 11 03:49 |
| cubezzz | well, that would encourage new versions of software and more $$$ potentially | Aug 11 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | its users are made of money anyway | Aug 11 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | and I doubt they have a software collection spanning 20 years | Aug 11 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | businesses don't use it either | Aug 11 03:49 |
| Balrog_ | they had no other choice; the OS was still based on MC68K assembly code in some places | Aug 11 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | so Windows is stuck with backwards compatibility rubbish that Mac can easily break away from | Aug 11 03:49 |
| cubezzz | there's a lot of built-in obsolescence in things | Aug 11 03:49 |
| Balrog_ | apple just implemented a sort of virtualization from 2000 to 2006 | Aug 11 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | they've switched architectures 3 times now | Aug 11 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | resetting what you can run on your Mac each time | Aug 11 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | starting you over from scratch | Aug 11 03:50 |
| Balrog_ | then dropped it when x86 came along | Aug 11 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | I'd be pissed | Aug 11 03:50 |
| Balrog_ | not true; switching architectures had little impact | Aug 11 03:51 |
| Balrog_ | moving from OS 9 to OS X ... a lot of impact | Aug 11 03:51 |
| cubezzz | computer software just doesn't live very long | Aug 11 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | "We're sorry, the Mac Classic environment is no longer supported, sucks to be you, try buying a newer version fo the program" | Aug 11 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 03:51 |
| cubezzz | either the storage medium decays or new hardware comes out | Aug 11 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | well, a lot of old games depend on DirectPlay for their joystick input | Aug 11 03:52 |
| Balrog_ | yeah, after 6 years of support | Aug 11 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | Windows hasn't supported that since Vista came out | Aug 11 03:52 |
| Balrog_ | brb | Aug 11 03:52 |
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| cubezzz | just port to penguinplay :) | Aug 11 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | I think Microsoft's policy is to try to support programs designed for up to two versions back | Aug 11 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | so they want to make sure XP apps still run | Aug 11 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | but they don't care about 98 and 2000 | Aug 11 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | they may or may not | Aug 11 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | that applies to Windows 7 anyway | Aug 11 03:54 |
| DaemonFC | that's still nearly 10 years worth of software | Aug 11 03:54 |
| DaemonFC | Apple usually doesn't even do that | Aug 11 03:54 |
| DaemonFC | hell, I've seen people upgrade, like from Tiger to Leopard and have to BUY patches to update their software | Aug 11 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | it really is an incredible scam | Aug 11 03:55 |
| cubezzz | well, I figure the #boycotnovell crowd to be mostly Linux people | Aug 11 03:55 |
| cubezzz | I could be wrong :) | Aug 11 03:55 |
| DaemonFC | well, since we're talking backwards compatibility | Aug 11 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | try running Loki installers on a modern Linux distro | Aug 11 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | let me know how that goes | Aug 11 03:56 |
| cubezzz | I run rt2 on fedora 10 | Aug 11 03:56 |
| cubezzz | it works, I had to modify it though | Aug 11 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | I tried installing Heavy Metal: Fakk2's Linux installer, and it bombed out | Aug 11 03:56 |
| DaemonFC | I ended up putting it in Wine | Aug 11 03:57 |
| cubezzz | I usually have one older box around which helps | Aug 11 03:57 |
| DaemonFC | I have a feeling that's why Linux performs well and isn't real error prone | Aug 11 03:57 |
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| DaemonFC | they have no guaranteed interfaces and strip old code out without regard to what breaks | Aug 11 03:57 |
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| cubezzz | there's a couple of Loki guys that have posted how to get some games to work | Aug 11 03:58 |
| cubezzz | you just have to know a dev or two | Aug 11 03:58 |
| DaemonFC | I think a large part of Linux's problem is precisely that | Aug 11 03:59 |
| DaemonFC | their uncaring attitude about whether or not they break commercial software | Aug 11 03:59 |
| cubezzz | probably true in some cases | Aug 11 03:59 |
| DaemonFC | they kind of have this mindset that if you can't just recompile it right there, it's not worth saving | Aug 11 03:59 |
| DaemonFC | that works well for a small niche operating system in a small niche market | Aug 11 04:00 |
| cubezzz | sometimes even FOSS stuff gets orphaned | Aug 11 04:00 |
| DaemonFC | but it's not gonna win them points when they try to take on commercial platforms who host commercial software, and then say "Please port this to Linux" | Aug 11 04:00 |
| cubezzz | but if you really want to improve it you can | Aug 11 04:00 |
| DaemonFC | every time I ask someone to port something ot to fix bugs, that's the answer I get | Aug 11 04:01 |
| cubezzz | ;-) | Aug 11 04:01 |
| DaemonFC | some variation of "Linux moves too fast to support" | Aug 11 04:01 |
| Balrog_ | just use stable APIs :) | Aug 11 04:02 |
| Balrog_ | they do exist, | Aug 11 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | it's a copout but Linux developers give it to them on a platter | Aug 11 04:02 |
| Balrog_ | but not in the kernel | Aug 11 04:02 |
| Balrog_ | true | Aug 11 04:02 |
| DaemonFC | the attitude of just blowing off all proprietary software developers is hurting Linux, because not every kind of software thrives in an open source only system | Aug 11 04:03 |
| DaemonFC | there's not enough interest or profit potential to make it worth doing | Aug 11 04:03 |
| DaemonFC | or people with know how who will contribut | Aug 11 04:04 |
| DaemonFC | it's like what would happen if Bethesda ported Oblivion to Linux? lots of people have asked that | Aug 11 04:04 |
| DaemonFC | first of all, could a game that complicated be done for free, by an open source project? | Aug 11 04:05 |
| DaemonFC | second of all, since we know it can't, should Bethesda have to patch the game every 6 months to keep it compatible? | Aug 11 04:05 |
| Balrog_ | can't they make the engine | Aug 11 04:05 |
| Balrog_ | GPL and the data non free? | Aug 11 04:05 |
| DaemonFC | there is no good way to do this because they want to make money, there isn't enough open source talent to create anything like this independently, and Linux moves to fast to be worth supporting for a 1% spike in sales | Aug 11 04:06 |
| _Hicham_ | so better go with Windows | Aug 11 04:07 |
| DaemonFC | they could open source the engine, but then what you get is the content being bittorrented seperately, for free, by tightwads | Aug 11 04:07 |
| _Hicham_ | what a weak argument | Aug 11 04:07 |
| _Hicham_ | DaemonFCish argument, as always | Aug 11 04:07 |
| DaemonFC | it's like asking them to put $10 towards every $1 they get in return | Aug 11 04:07 |
| DaemonFC | that's just not how a business works | Aug 11 04:07 |
| DaemonFC | well, a profitable one that wants to make more products later | Aug 11 04:08 |
| DaemonFC | so by making the model unsustainable, everyone loses | Aug 11 04:08 |
| DaemonFC | they can't make their product, you can't use their product | Aug 11 04:08 |
| DaemonFC | and if they try, then you buy it, and 9 other people get on bittorrent and go "Look what I got for free! Nyaaaah Nyaaah!" | Aug 11 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | and the developer is never heard from again | Aug 11 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | (Loki) | Aug 11 04:09 |
| DaemonFC | that really pissed me off btw | Aug 11 04:10 |
| DaemonFC | it's cheapass people like that that have propped Cedega up | Aug 11 04:10 |
| DaemonFC | ow you not only have to buy the Windows game, you have to pay a Cedega subscription to run it properly | Aug 11 04:11 |
| DaemonFC | and Cedega, over the course of a year, costs almost as much as Windows, which runs the game natively | Aug 11 04:11 |
| DaemonFC | Cedega's marketing is kind of like going to a used car lot | Aug 11 04:12 |
| DaemonFC | they always promise more than they can deliver, and it costs you more money than it looked like at the time | Aug 11 04:13 |
| Balrog_ | wine often works | Aug 11 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | bringing me back to DRM | Aug 11 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | Cedega doesn't crash when it hits Securom | Aug 11 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | Wine does | Aug 11 04:13 |
| DaemonFC | DRM and Linux development methodology creates the circular problem of incompatibility which Cedega is milking you to be rid of | Aug 11 04:14 |
| DaemonFC | also if you're buying the Windows version of the game, then they'll jsut keep making just the Windows version of the game | Aug 11 04:15 |
| DaemonFC | it's one big problem for several reasons that feeds itself | Aug 11 04:15 |
| DaemonFC | I kind of consider it a cold fusion reactor of incompatibility | Aug 11 04:16 |
| Balrog_ | I don't play games to begin with | Aug 11 04:17 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft is feeding off that market | Aug 11 04:18 |
| DaemonFC | gorging themselves on it to be more precise | Aug 11 04:18 |
| Balrog_ | they have been since the mid 90s | Aug 11 04:18 |
| DaemonFC | because no credible contenders are really out there besides Sony (shvers) | Aug 11 04:18 |
| DaemonFC | well, the engines that do get open sourced are like dead husks that are commercially infeasable at that point | Aug 11 04:20 |
| _Hicham_ | Finally MiniCopier is going to enter Fedora | Aug 11 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | like Quake III Engine | Aug 11 04:20 |
| DaemonFC | id Software hasn't typically made money off the games so much as licensing their engines anyway | Aug 11 04:21 |
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| DaemonFC | so fat chance of the engine being open source when it's viewed as a valuable commodity | Aug 11 04:21 |
| Balrog_ | but a GPLed engine has its limitations (for commercial usage) | Aug 11 04:23 |
| DaemonFC | I suppose if the "open source engine + commercialized content for it" idea was profitable, someone would have come along selling "content" packs for the Nexuiz engine | Aug 11 04:24 |
| DaemonFC | or something | Aug 11 04:24 |
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| Balrog_ | night | Aug 11 04:27 |
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| fewa | ut oh, Daemon is back | Aug 11 04:36 |
| fewa | And i noticed also plugging Windows and dissing FOSS | Aug 11 04:36 |
| thenixedreport | @fewa: He uses Windows the same reason I do. | Aug 11 04:38 |
| thenixedreport | We both use it from time to time so we can say why it sucks. | Aug 11 04:38 |
| DaemonFC` | dammit | Aug 11 04:38 |
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| *DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Aug 11 04:38 | |
| DaemonFC | thenixedreport: pure frustration of other binary-only software dying under Wine | Aug 11 04:39 |
| DaemonFC | is the main reason | Aug 11 04:39 |
| DaemonFC | There's a lot of programs out there that so heavily depend on so many functions of the Windows API that they may never run right on Wine | Aug 11 04:40 |
| DaemonFC | Winamp is my favorite example | Aug 11 04:40 |
| DaemonFC | the rest see Wine as a debugger and assume you're trying to evade the copy protection, and commit suicide | Aug 11 04:41 |
| DaemonFC | I subscribed to Cedega for a while, cancelled almsot immediately | Aug 11 04:42 |
| DaemonFC | I just kind of get rubbed the wrong way by Wine, I think the kind of stuff I tend to run in it tends to be way too much for it | Aug 11 04:44 |
| thenixedreport | That's why vendors who do the porting should be supported. | Aug 11 04:45 |
| thenixedreport | 2DBoy for example. | Aug 11 04:45 |
| thenixedreport | And Frictional Games too. | Aug 11 04:45 |
| DaemonFC | Winamp has been made so heavily dependent on Windows and AOL is doing so bad these days that it's mainly only getting bugfixes and minor new features | Aug 11 04:45 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think they could even rewrite enough of it to have cross platform support if they wanted to | Aug 11 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | they also gave that reason as to why it won't be a Win64 program either :P | Aug 11 04:46 |
| thenixedreport | They had an alpha version for Linux-based operating systems at one point. | Aug 11 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | they gave that up because the plugins were not cooperating | Aug 11 04:46 |
| DaemonFC | and they didn't want to have to rewrite everything | Aug 11 04:47 |
| DaemonFC | it's one of the few things that's actually making AOL any money and they can't even devote enough resources to do anything with it beyind maintainenece | Aug 11 04:48 |
| DaemonFC | kind of sad | Aug 11 04:48 |
| DaemonFC | anyhow, Amarok is the only thing that even comes close | Aug 11 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | and that still has some rough edges from the KDE 4 migration | Aug 11 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's getting better | Aug 11 04:49 |
| DaemonFC | batch transcoding would be a nice addition to Amarok too using various standalone encoders | Aug 11 04:50 |
| fewa | thenixedreport, I | Aug 11 04:51 |
| fewa | thenixedreport, I | Aug 11 04:51 |
| fewa | m not sure your right about that | Aug 11 04:51 |
| fewa | err, sry | Aug 11 04:52 |
| thenixedreport | I have run WIndows 7. | Aug 11 04:59 |
| thenixedreport | It has potential, but I can also tell everyone why it blows. | Aug 11 04:59 |
| cubezzz | why? | Aug 11 04:59 |
| thenixedreport | There are too many show stoppers at the moment. | Aug 11 04:59 |
| thenixedreport | 1.) Double clicking a folder should not open a new window. | Aug 11 05:00 |
| thenixedreport | It defeats the purpose of the forward and back buttons in the file manager. | Aug 11 05:00 |
| thenixedreport | 2.) Chkdsk. | Aug 11 05:00 |
| thenixedreport | I don't care what anybody else says. | Aug 11 05:00 |
| thenixedreport | Scanning a hard disk drive for errors should not choke out all your ram in the first place. | Aug 11 05:00 |
| thenixedreport | 3.) Though it does perform better, there are hardly any new features that would justify the hefty upgrade price. | Aug 11 05:01 |
| thenixedreport | 4.) Too many editions still. | Aug 11 05:01 |
| thenixedreport | Just have a home and pro edition and be done with it already. | Aug 11 05:01 |
| thenixedreport | 5.) UAC still blows security-wise. | Aug 11 05:02 |
| cubezzz | ...and it's product of evil (tm) microsoft | Aug 11 05:02 |
| cubezzz | well, I wasn't about it use it :) | Aug 11 05:02 |
| thenixedreport | Especially since it can automatically elevate priveleges without asking the user if they're sure. | Aug 11 05:02 |
| thenixedreport | Which defeats the purpose of UAC. | Aug 11 05:02 |
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| thenixedreport | And again, the price tag is still way too high. | Aug 11 05:03 |
| cubezzz | dare I ask how much? | Aug 11 05:03 |
| thenixedreport | All the so called "cool stuff" will be made available for Vista anyway. | Aug 11 05:04 |
| thenixedreport | How much should be charged or how much is too much? | Aug 11 05:04 |
| cubezzz | how much is too much | Aug 11 05:04 |
| thenixedreport | If you have to pay over $100 just for a full copy, you're paying too much. | Aug 11 05:04 |
| thenixedreport | A full copy of Windows is not worth $100, let alone $400. | Aug 11 05:04 |
| thenixedreport | Never has been and never will be, even with inflation taken into account. | Aug 11 05:05 |
| cubezzz | I stopped using microsoft stuff in the windows 2000 era | Aug 11 05:06 |
| cubezzz | never really liked windows, since version 2.0 and my opinion hasn't changed | Aug 11 05:07 |
| cubezzz | if Commodore survived today I would probably still be using AmigaDOS | Aug 11 05:09 |
| You could not pay me $100 to use windows. | Aug 11 05:12 | |
| st home | Aug 11 05:13 | |
| at home | Aug 11 05:13 | |
| :P | Aug 11 05:13 | |
| DaemonFC | I'm trying to draw up a proposal for a minimum wage ordnance for the city that would exempt small employers | Aug 11 05:13 |
| DaemonFC | I'm going to try to get it published in the town newspaper | Aug 11 05:13 |
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| cubezzz | I use Linux at work too, just not exclusively | Aug 11 05:13 |
| ***twitter erases the last hour of DaemonFC clutter. Ignores latest incarnation. | Aug 11 05:15 | |
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| *DaemonFC wishes the Twitter interruption would extend itself here | Aug 11 05:17 | |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Aug 11 05:17 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aiQ7e1ts_VBo | Aug 11 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | Republicans extend their anti-Obama attacks through their Canadian counterparts | Aug 11 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | apparently | Aug 11 05:18 |
| DaemonFC | Canadian hyposcrisy | Aug 11 05:21 |
| DaemonFC | demanding we end "Buy American" protectionism while they have a "Buy Canadian" government policy in place | Aug 11 05:21 |
| DaemonFC | *hypocrisy | Aug 11 05:21 |
| DaemonFC | apparently we're also pissing off the EU | Aug 11 05:22 |
| DaemonFC | they can stay pissed | Aug 11 05:22 |
| cubezzz | well everyone should support the manufacturers of their own country first | Aug 11 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | we already turned off the illegal immigration magnet by letting foreign interests destroy our job market | Aug 11 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Aug 11 05:23 |
| DaemonFC | more mexicans are going back to Mexico than are coming here now | Aug 11 05:24 |
| cubezzz | and if you can't find something, then start looking at other countries | Aug 11 05:24 |
| DaemonFC | I see Canada and Mexico complaining that we aren't giving them more blood | Aug 11 05:24 |
| DaemonFC | when they've already bled us dry | Aug 11 05:24 |
| DaemonFC | I really wish they'd impeach Stephen Harper | Aug 11 05:26 |
| DaemonFC | they tried and he suspended Parliament to prevent that | Aug 11 05:26 |
| cubezzz | what did he do? | Aug 11 05:26 |
| DaemonFC | he'd about as politically popular as herpes | Aug 11 05:26 |
| DaemonFC | he's like the Canadian George W. Bush | Aug 11 05:26 |
| DaemonFC | same policies only a lot less potent | Aug 11 05:26 |
| DaemonFC | he's so bad that Canada's other three parties united to try to get rid of him | Aug 11 05:28 |
| DaemonFC | and these guys seldom agree in unison on anything else | Aug 11 05:28 |
| cubezzz | that is true :) | Aug 11 05:29 |
| DaemonFC | Canada's government structure is even more messed up than ours | Aug 11 05:29 |
| DaemonFC | at least the US President can't suspend Congress to avoid an impeachment vote | Aug 11 05:29 |
| DaemonFC | who the hell decided that was a good idea to allow in Canada? | Aug 11 05:30 |
| DaemonFC | there are governments that are less accountable to their people than the United States, we share the North American continent with two shining examples | Aug 11 05:31 |
| DaemonFC | and yet we're the corrupt ones | Aug 11 05:31 |
| DaemonFC | sure | Aug 11 05:31 |
| cubezzz | it wasn't an impeachment vote, it was a confidence vote | Aug 11 05:31 |
| DaemonFC | same result, right? | Aug 11 05:31 |
| DaemonFC | he gets removed from office | Aug 11 05:31 |
| cubezzz | I suppose | Aug 11 05:31 |
| DaemonFC | OK, allowing the Canadian Prime Minister to suspend Parliament to avoid a no confidence vote makes no sense at all? | Aug 11 05:32 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Aug 11 05:32 |
| DaemonFC | better? | Aug 11 05:32 |
| DaemonFC | it's still the same thing as an "impeachment" they just call it a no confidence vote | Aug 11 05:32 |
| cubezzz | Until that happened, I had no idea it was possible | Aug 11 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | apparently it's not | Aug 11 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 05:33 |
| cubezzz | Harper must have come to some compromise | Aug 11 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | What is the process there for? To make people feel better? They can't use it, so it must be | Aug 11 05:33 |
| DaemonFC | Australia and Canada were ripping on George Bush with John Howard and Stephen Harper running their countries? | Aug 11 05:34 |
| DaemonFC | that kind of discredits them, I think | Aug 11 05:34 |
| DaemonFC | then to make things even funnier, John Howard said that Americans should vote for John McCain (this was before the election) | Aug 11 05:35 |
| DaemonFC | this kind of crap makes me think there's an international "Republican" party | Aug 11 05:36 |
| DaemonFC | in the UK it's called the British National Party | Aug 11 05:36 |
| cubezzz | well I voted for the Greens, they didn't get any seats though | Aug 11 05:36 |
| DaemonFC | I'm considering getting into the local political system | Aug 11 05:37 |
| cubezzz | I assume the STates has a green party? | Aug 11 05:37 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not sure if I want to touch that or to just leave town | Aug 11 05:37 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, no national or state level seats | Aug 11 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | they have a few county and city level offices | Aug 11 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | no broad appeal | Aug 11 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | the Democrats integrate some of the Green Party platform though | Aug 11 05:38 |
| DaemonFC | the reason the Democrats are less effective than the Republicans, even with a super majority is because there are lots of kinds of Democrats, and only one kind of Republican | Aug 11 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | the Democrats are basically three parties in one labor, liberals, and libertarians | Aug 11 05:39 |
| DaemonFC | the Republicans are really two, evangelical Christians and big business | Aug 11 05:40 |
| DaemonFC | they really are not diverse | Aug 11 05:40 |
| cubezzz | I've heard the term "blue dog democrat" recently | Aug 11 05:40 |
| cubezzz | not sure what it means :) | Aug 11 05:40 |
| DaemonFC | the blue dog democrats tend to be fiiscal conservatives and socially liberal | Aug 11 05:40 |
| DaemonFC | it's preferable to a Republican, but what isn't? | Aug 11 05:40 |
| DaemonFC | they're still fighting healthcare reform | Aug 11 05:41 |
| DaemonFC | so I don't really like them | Aug 11 05:41 |
| DaemonFC | well, most of them are, it's complicated | Aug 11 05:41 |
| DaemonFC | each state has two senators that are elected directly by the people of that state, Indiana is one of a handful that has one Republican and one Democrat | Aug 11 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | Evan Bayh is the Democrat, and he's part of that Blue Dog group | Aug 11 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | but he's not an asshole, so I always vote for him | Aug 11 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 05:42 |
| DaemonFC | he was our governor for 8 years, and he's been our junior senator for the last 11 | Aug 11 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | extremely popular | Aug 11 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | there was some talk of him being Obama's Vice presidential pick, it surprised me when he wasn't | Aug 11 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | would have been a good one | Aug 11 05:43 |
| DaemonFC | I think what stopped that was that we have a Republican governor that would have chosen his replacement | Aug 11 05:44 |
| fewa | cubezzz, the US | Aug 11 05:44 |
| fewa | 's electoral system is very harsh to other parties | Aug 11 05:44 |
| DaemonFC | yes, it's difficult for other parties to compete | Aug 11 05:45 |
| fewa | and it was largely designed by the two aprties to their own interests | Aug 11 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | you have to get on the ballot in every state to pose them any threat for the presidency | Aug 11 05:45 |
| DaemonFC | and most third parties are only on the ballot in 30-40 states | Aug 11 05:45 |
| fewa | I like parliamentary system better | Aug 11 05:45 |
| cubezzz | Nader didn't do too bad, I seem to remember | Aug 11 05:46 |
| fewa | and the parties oust other canidates from the "dabates" | Aug 11 05:46 |
| cubezzz | he got a lot of coverage | Aug 11 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | 50 states, more or less just a simple majority wins you that state's electoral votes | Aug 11 05:46 |
| fewa | cubezzz, they forcibly removed him from the "debate" to which he had a valid ticket | Aug 11 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | electoral votes are equal to the number of representatives for that state, plus their 2 senators | Aug 11 05:46 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, not is all the states | Aug 11 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, some split them by region | Aug 11 05:46 |
| DaemonFC | that quirk gave Obama one vote from Nebraska where McCain got the other 4 | Aug 11 05:47 |
| fewa | some states, such as maine, are representative. Also there is a popular vote amendment | Aug 11 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | it never happens though, so that was a fluke | Aug 11 05:47 |
| fewa | that if a electoral majority of states pass will convert presidential elections to popular vote | Aug 11 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, the National Popular Vote Compact | Aug 11 05:47 |
| DaemonFC | that needs to pass, it really does | Aug 11 05:48 |
| DaemonFC | it would get rid of a lot of the unfairness in our current system | Aug 11 05:48 |
| fewa | my state has joined it | Aug 11 05:48 |
| fewa | Get your state to do so | Aug 11 05:48 |
| DaemonFC | it was introduced last year | Aug 11 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | died in committee | Aug 11 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's Indiana, heh, you'll have better luck convincing the Texans to pass it | Aug 11 05:49 |
| DaemonFC | there they at least have some areas with a libertarian slant | Aug 11 05:50 |
| fewa | Texas is important | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | looks like a lot of smaller states are passing it | Aug 11 05:51 |
| fewa | also they would get better representation with it | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | so would California | Aug 11 05:51 |
| fewa | small state would loose representation | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | I worked out the math once | Aug 11 05:51 |
| fewa | its obvious without needing math | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | my vote is worth 6 votes made by California residents | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | for president anyway | Aug 11 05:51 |
| DaemonFC | that's not fair | Aug 11 05:52 |
| DaemonFC | my vote essentially deprives 5 other people of theirs | Aug 11 05:52 |
| DaemonFC | just because I'm in a smaller state | Aug 11 05:52 |
| DaemonFC | technically that means Indiana is over-represented and my vote is 6 times as potent as it should be, any system where that can happen needs to be trashed | Aug 11 05:53 |
| DaemonFC | it also means that a vote in Wisconsin is worth 12 California voters | Aug 11 05:53 |
| DaemonFC | or two Indiana voters | Aug 11 05:53 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, only one vote matters | Aug 11 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | not true | Aug 11 05:54 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, that one vote that changes the majority | Aug 11 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | number of electoral votes divided by population | Aug 11 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | is what matters | Aug 11 05:54 |
| fewa | so if your state is not evenly balanced your vote doesn't matter much | Aug 11 05:54 |
| DaemonFC | right, even though California and Texas have a lot of votes, they still don't have the weight they deserve | Aug 11 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | given how many people live there | Aug 11 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | well, I wouldn't necessarily say that | Aug 11 05:55 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana has gone to Republican presidential candidates since 1968 | Aug 11 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | and voted for Obama last year | Aug 11 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | if the Democrats here gave up, the Republicans would have taken Indiana again last year | Aug 11 05:56 |
| DaemonFC | I don't really care how badly outnumbered I think I am, I always at least drive down to the courthouse and vote | Aug 11 05:57 |
| DaemonFC | it's the only thing that all these taxes are really buying me | Aug 11 05:57 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, you are off on the 6x stat | Aug 11 05:59 |
| fewa | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_population | Aug 11 05:59 |
| fewa | see pop per electoral vote | Aug 11 05:59 |
| DaemonFC | I know how many we have | Aug 11 05:59 |
| DaemonFC | we deserve less | Aug 11 05:59 |
| fewa | wyoming is 3.8X california rep | Aug 11 06:00 |
| fewa | and thats the biggest difference | Aug 11 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | Indiana has 11 votes for 6.5 million people, California has 55 votes for almsot 37 million people | Aug 11 06:00 |
| fewa | yeah you mathed the wrong way | Aug 11 06:00 |
| fewa | aka DaemonFC is wrong | Aug 11 06:00 |
| DaemonFC | OK, I was off | Aug 11 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | they have 5 times the votes but almost 6 times the population | Aug 11 06:01 |
| fewa | still alot of difference | Aug 11 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | still unfair | Aug 11 06:01 |
| DaemonFC | just not massively unfair | Aug 11 06:01 |
| fewa | 3.8X for wyoming | Aug 11 06:01 |
| fewa | lets get the Standard deviation :P | Aug 11 06:02 |
| fewa | or compare to voting turnout | Aug 11 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | Wyoming has 3 votes for 523,000 people | Aug 11 06:02 |
| fewa | thats a bigger difference | Aug 11 06:02 |
| DaemonFC | yikes | Aug 11 06:02 |
| fewa | states with bigger turnout will suddenly have more representation | Aug 11 06:02 |
| fewa | and there will suddenly be more of an incentive to increase turnouts | Aug 11 06:03 |
| fewa | thats probably a good things | Aug 11 06:03 |
| fewa | *good thing | Aug 11 06:03 |
| DaemonFC | so their population is like 1/11th of ours (just an estimation), but they get about 1/4th as many votes | Aug 11 06:03 |
| DaemonFC | weird system, very weird system | Aug 11 06:03 |
| fewa | as that was the very reason womans sufferage too so long in the US | Aug 11 06:03 |
| fewa | Its because its a federation | Aug 11 06:03 |
| fewa | A similarly set up government is Switzerland | Aug 11 06:04 |
| DaemonFC | it also means you could only win 11 states out of 50 | Aug 11 06:04 |
| DaemonFC | and still be the president | Aug 11 06:04 |
| DaemonFC | that's messed up | Aug 11 06:04 |
| fewa | although there is a huge differnce between US and Switzerland on democratic participation | Aug 11 06:04 |
| DaemonFC | if you won the 11 with the most votes, that gives you 271 | Aug 11 06:04 |
| DaemonFC | you only need 270 | Aug 11 06:05 |
| fewa | much less democratic deficiet | Aug 11 06:05 |
| DaemonFC | technically you only need 269 to tie and the decision to be sent to the House of Representatives | Aug 11 06:05 |
| fewa | "Through referendums, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through initiatives introduce amendments to the federal constitution, making Switzerland the closest state in the world to a direct democracy." | Aug 11 06:05 |
| DaemonFC | at which point, the Democrat would likely win | Aug 11 06:05 |
| fewa | If we had that we would already have single-payer health care, we would never had had war with Iraq, etc, etc | Aug 11 06:06 |
| DaemonFC | mmhm | Aug 11 06:06 |
| fewa | DaemonFC, political parties are structured around constituents, so the politics would just change | Aug 11 06:06 |
| DaemonFC | that's why we don't have it | Aug 11 06:06 |
| DaemonFC | constituents are manipulated | Aug 11 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | by the Fox Noise Channel | Aug 11 06:07 |
| fewa | Popular opinion, a much more sane barometre would be able to prevail | Aug 11 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | and the Rush Limbaughs | Aug 11 06:07 |
| fewa | it would do much to abolish the democratic deficiet | Aug 11 06:07 |
| fewa | If we had another 60s it would be pushed through | Aug 11 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | that's why there's no draft | Aug 11 06:07 |
| fewa | just like 18 year old voting was pushed through under strong political pressure | Aug 11 06:07 |
| DaemonFC | the Republicans don't want motivated young voters | Aug 11 06:08 |
| fewa | even made a constitutional amendment | Aug 11 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | the Republicans didn't draft for Iraq because then young voters would get their asses up, put down the XBOX for 5 minutes | Aug 11 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | and get rid of the bastards | Aug 11 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | all of them | Aug 11 06:08 |
| DaemonFC | last year wouldn't have jsut been a major setback for the Republicans, it would have been a bloodbath | Aug 11 06:10 |
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| DaemonFC` | http://www.crn.com/security/219100667%3Bjsessionid%3DFXV2LLRPWQ4LZQE1GHPSKHWATMY32JVN&gateway=true | Aug 11 06:13 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Aug 11 06:13 | |
| *DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Aug 11 06:13 | |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, Microsoft sent me a survey | Aug 11 06:14 |
| fewa | do you get a laptop if you answer it? | Aug 11 06:15 |
| fewa | :P | Aug 11 06:16 |
| cubezzz | I'd do a microsoft survey for a laptop :) | Aug 11 06:16 |
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| DaemonFC | 10. What do you like or dislike about Microsoft Security Essentials? | Aug 11 06:17 |
| DaemonFC | "I would like to see it use its own update system. I have my Windows updates set to notify but not automatically install, and find the daily alerts somewhat annoying. Clarification is needed on what the "default action" for each class of threat does." | Aug 11 06:18 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Aug 11 06:18 |
| DaemonFC | I fill them out | Aug 11 06:19 |
| DaemonFC | this is actually the third survey for MSE | Aug 11 06:20 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,538441,00.html | Aug 11 06:22 |
| DaemonFC | "Now Hiring: Everywhere You Didn't Want to Work" | Aug 11 06:22 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Aug 11 06:22 |
| DaemonFC | "People who have been out of work for months are lining up for jobs at places they once considered unthinkable: slaughterhouses, sewage plants, prisons." | Aug 11 06:23 |
| DaemonFC | thats why the Mexicans are fleeing | Aug 11 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | the depression has forced everyone down a notch | Aug 11 06:24 |
| DaemonFC | and that means nothing left for them | Aug 11 06:25 |
| cubezzz | what about working for the "Big M"? | Aug 11 06:25 |
| cubezzz | I think the sewer guys get paid pretty decent actually | Aug 11 06:26 |
| DaemonFC | like I said, we turned off the magnet by letting foreign interests and illegal aliens take everything we had | Aug 11 06:27 |
| DaemonFC | it's so bad now that we're taking jobs that only illegal aliens would have even done just a few years ago | Aug 11 06:27 |
| cubezzz | 2009 has been pretty decent for me | Aug 11 06:28 |
| cubezzz | I can't really complain | Aug 11 06:28 |
| DaemonFC | NAFTA has hurt almost every average person | Aug 11 06:28 |
| DaemonFC | in the US, Mexico, and to a lesser extent, Canada | Aug 11 06:28 |
| DaemonFC | and enriched a few CEO types and rapacious investors | Aug 11 06:28 |
| cubezzz | 2008 was kind of crappy though | Aug 11 06:29 |
| DaemonFC | we should repeal it and withdraw from the WTO immediately, but we won't because our government is bought and paid for by the crooks | Aug 11 06:29 |
| DaemonFC | if I was running things, we'd withdraw from NAFTA, the WTO, WIPO, the United Nations, and we'd shut down the Federal Reserve | Aug 11 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | this "global economy" is a crock and hasn't done anything but bleed us to give our money to a bunch of ingratiated third world complainers and super wealthy CEOs | Aug 11 06:30 |
| DaemonFC | no matter how much money or foreign aide we dump on say, African governments and poverty stricken people, it's always "Death to America!!!!" fuck them, if they're going to be like that, we should just worry about our own problems | Aug 11 06:32 |
| DaemonFC | we can't feed our own homeless or give jobs to our own poor, what the hell do we owe to others? | Aug 11 06:32 |
| DaemonFC | we're not the March of Dimes | Aug 11 06:33 |
| DaemonFC | we're broke, and yet these globalization types still want more moeny to "fight AIDS in Africa", like that's ever going away | Aug 11 06:34 |
| DaemonFC | when half the governments over there deny it even exists | Aug 11 06:35 |
| DaemonFC | cubezzz: It's going to be India, India is going to be the 21st century superpower | Aug 11 06:36 |
| DaemonFC | not even China can keep up with them | Aug 11 06:36 |
| DaemonFC | http://cavemancircus.com/2009/08/08/bill-clinton-vs-james-bond/ | Aug 11 06:38 |
| DaemonFC | lmao | Aug 11 06:38 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, Winamp now supports DRM'd Windows Media files | Aug 11 06:47 |
| DaemonFC | * Fixed: [in_wm] Embedded IE browser for DRM license acquisition | Aug 11 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | iccck | Aug 11 06:48 |
| DaemonFC | I guess the art of sockpuppetry is not only mastered by twitter | Aug 11 06:50 |
| DaemonFC | every news article about Obama linked to by Google News has scores of anti-Obama posts | Aug 11 06:50 |
| schestowitz | http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/techbeat/archives/2009/08/vmware_acquires.html They overpaid and they are EEEing a competitor | Aug 11 07:12 |
| schestowitz | VMware is now ran by Microsoft gangsters | Aug 11 07:13 |
| DaemonFC | I saw that | Aug 11 07:15 |
| DaemonFC | watch the Linux port get scragged | Aug 11 07:15 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Apparently Ubuntu can now be booted up in a VHD by Windows | Aug 11 07:19 |
| DaemonFC | that's pretty sick | Aug 11 07:19 |
| DaemonFC | I tried it a couple years ago and it didn't work, it would kernel panic | Aug 11 07:20 |
| DaemonFC | I wonder if this is just a broader part of work on the kernel | Aug 11 07:20 |
| schestowitz | Facing Five Years In Prison For Posting A Photo On MySpace Wearing Gang Colors < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090808/1934025816.shtml > | Aug 11 07:35 |
| DaemonFC | nice | Aug 11 07:36 |
| DaemonFC | remind me to wear state-approved colors when I make a photo of myself | Aug 11 07:36 |
| DaemonFC | the report is correct | Aug 11 07:39 |
| DaemonFC | the police should follow them and see if they actually do any gang-related activity | Aug 11 07:39 |
| DaemonFC | and bag them and their buddies if they are up to something | Aug 11 07:39 |
| DaemonFC | if not, just let it go | Aug 11 07:39 |
| DaemonFC | Joost has cranked down the volume of its videos so you have to turn your volume control to max | Aug 11 07:41 |
| DaemonFC | and get blasted out tof the room by commercials | Aug 11 07:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Cyberattack That Brought Down Twitter & Facebook Only Highlighted The Guy It Hoped To Silence < http://ping.fm/WfxHx > So true. | Aug 11 07:44 | |
| schestowitz | More Companies Firing People Over Social Media (Mis)use < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/10/more-companies-firing-people-over-social-media-misuse > | Aug 11 07:47 |
| schestowitz | Seems like an attempt to suck up to FOSS: http://kara.allthingsd.com/20090810/vmware-forks-over-420-million-for-springsource/?mod=ATD_rss | Aug 11 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Why would they pay so much? I don't trust them. | Aug 11 07:50 |
| schestowitz | Nortel CEO quits, leaving the ship to sink.. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/10/zafirovski_resigns/ | Aug 11 07:54 |
| schestowitz | US civil liberties gang questions Obama cookie plan < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/proposed_tracking_cookie_changes/ > | Aug 11 07:59 |
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| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t76YW7cTaHw | Aug 11 08:09 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Aug 11 08:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] RT @mashable Delicious Founder: I Wish I Had Not Sold to Yahoo http://bit.ly/16SkZF | Aug 11 08:09 | |
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| DaemonFC | "The problem is that the number of cool projects is pretty minimal. They’re in duck and cover mode. They’ll get pushed to trim employees further and further to stretch the revenues out." | Aug 11 08:11 |
| DaemonFC | agreed | Aug 11 08:11 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft is doing some weird, inexplicable shit lately, now that he mentioned that | Aug 11 08:12 |
| DaemonFC | falling back to Windows and Office, selling entire divisions to keep the lights on | Aug 11 08:13 |
| DaemonFC | bad management | Aug 11 08:13 |
| DaemonFC | I think anyone that sells their project to a big business then expresses horror when it stagnates just didn't understand what they did | Aug 11 08:14 |
| DaemonFC | Yahoo doesn't know how to run what it has, he thinks they're going to do wonderful things for Delicious? | Aug 11 08:15 |
| DaemonFC | he knew they'd ruin it, I think he took the money and ran and is trying to distance himself from that now | Aug 11 08:15 |
| DaemonFC | big companies like Yahoo and AOL tried buying up cool things to ruin them just so they wouldn't have to compete with them | Aug 11 08:16 |
| schestowitz | Row over Olympic deal for McDonald's < http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/09/mcdonalds-olympics-2012-london > THat's what sport is about... advertising and junk food. | Aug 11 08:18 |
| schestowitz | I abandoned delicious when Yahoo! bought them | Aug 11 08:19 |
| schestowitz | And Yahoo! is now throwing away geocities, including my work there | Aug 11 08:20 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft ruined Yahoo! even more | Aug 11 08:20 |
| schestowitz | New: Yahoo!'s open source elephant loses its daddy < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/10/hadoop_founder_leaves_yahoo_for_cloudera/ > | Aug 11 08:20 |
| schestowitz | Obama fights back as bid to reform US healthcare stalls < http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/09/obama-healthcare-reform-defeat > | Aug 11 08:21 |
| schestowitz | 46 million uninsured Americans... to remain so | Aug 11 08:21 |
| DaemonFC | most likely | Aug 11 08:23 |
| DaemonFC | the big money bastards win again | Aug 11 08:24 |
| schestowitz | Greenpeace in anti-trawling move < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8194105.stm > "The environmental group says it will drop 180 boulders off the Swedish and Danish coasts to prevent fishing boats from dragging nets along the sea bed." | Aug 11 08:24 |
| schestowitz | Humans drive into extinction all other species | Aug 11 08:24 |
| MinceR | or themselves, whichever comes first. :> | Aug 11 08:25 |
| schestowitz | More DRM junk: http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/aug/10/major-labels-new-digital-format | Aug 11 08:25 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: probably both. It's correlated | Aug 11 08:25 |
| DaemonFC | CMX=FLOP | Aug 11 08:26 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 08:26 |
| DaemonFC | MP3 will continue to dominate | Aug 11 08:26 |
| schestowitz | How to cure diseases before they have even evolved < http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327200.100-how-to-cure-diseases-before-they-have-even-evolved.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news > Long life, more births... | Aug 11 08:26 |
| DaemonFC | nothing the record industry has tried all by themselves has worked | Aug 11 08:27 |
| DaemonFC | you remember back in 2003 when they tried to launch their own stores? | Aug 11 08:27 |
| DaemonFC | that lasted like, not even a year | Aug 11 08:27 |
| DaemonFC | I don't know what makes them think they can succeed while at the same time, making their custoemrs hate them more | Aug 11 08:28 |
| DaemonFC | "Ours will be a file that you click on, it opens and it would have a brand new look, with a launch page and all the different options. When you click on it you're not just going to get the 10 tracks, you're going to get the artwork, the video and mobile products." | Aug 11 08:28 |
| DaemonFC | bs | Aug 11 08:29 |
| schestowitz | Indigenous community-based aspects of the Bolivian movement http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/indigenous-community-based-aspects-of-the-bolivian-movement/2009/08/10 | Aug 11 08:29 |
| DaemonFC | more like "Ours is the format that doesn't work with any existing hardware, doesn't work with iTunes, won't let you burn a CD, and costs the same" | Aug 11 08:29 |
| DaemonFC | wow!, I see a lot of value in that! /sarcasm | Aug 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/08/password_advice.html | Aug 11 08:30 |
| DaemonFC | gee, just let me go buy a new $100 player /sarcasm | Aug 11 08:30 |
| DaemonFC | I'll get right on that | Aug 11 08:30 |
| schestowitz | MPs urge whistleblower protection < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8192270.stm > | Aug 11 08:31 |
| DaemonFC | Is Douglas Hog among them? | Aug 11 08:32 |
| DaemonFC | :D | Aug 11 08:32 |
| DaemonFC | or does he prefer that whistleblowers be sentenced to clean his moat? | Aug 11 08:32 |
| DaemonFC | Tony Wright MP said a "culture that encourages proper whistleblowing... is the best safeguard against leaking". | Aug 11 08:33 |
| DaemonFC | I kind of read that as "We'll try harder not to get caught" | Aug 11 08:33 |
| schestowitz | New photos: http://enews.ferghana.ru/article.php?id=2563 | Aug 11 08:34 |
| DaemonFC | primitive societies | Aug 11 08:35 |
| DaemonFC | hooray! | Aug 11 08:36 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: About your comments on foreign countries raiding Africa's minerals and such | Aug 11 08:36 |
| DaemonFC | why shouldn't they? | Aug 11 08:36 |
| DaemonFC | So the people on that continent can keep sitting on them for the next 1,000 years? | Aug 11 08:37 |
| DaemonFC | it's obvious that most of them will never reach the level of advancement where oil or gold is worth as much to them as an animal carcass | Aug 11 08:39 |
| schestowitz | Deranged thoughts | Aug 11 08:45 |
| schestowitz | Shuttleworth wants to support Debian < http://www.h-online.com/open/Shuttleworth-wants-to-support-Debian--/news/113963 > | Aug 11 08:46 |
| schestowitz | Yes, Debian, come to poppa. Mark will be your project leader, too \sarcasm | Aug 11 08:46 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is this a sign of Solaris goes under Oracle/Linux axe? Probably not, but still.... http://ping.fm/cRbz7 | Aug 11 08:49 | |
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| DaemonFC | heh | Aug 11 08:51 |
| DaemonFC | and Ubuntu takeover bid, cool | Aug 11 08:51 |
| DaemonFC | *an | Aug 11 08:51 |
| DaemonFC | Debian has gotten a bit more Ubuntu-like | Aug 11 08:54 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista capable PCs are almost here. http://ping.fm/4YiQ5 (Personal Supercomputers Promise Teraflops on Your Desk) | Aug 11 08:58 | |
| DaemonFC | I was talking about that yesterday | Aug 11 08:58 |
| DaemonFC | Nvidia Tesla | Aug 11 08:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] http://ping.fm/M4J5d "In my case there is the little problem that Microsoft spent approximately 18 months stalking me." | Aug 11 09:01 | |
| schestowitz | OLPC Australia trying to burnish its image < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/26824/1231/ > | Aug 11 09:02 |
| DaemonFC | there's something that made me laugh more than ARM-based netbooks with Linux | Aug 11 09:02 |
| DaemonFC | Nvidia plans ARM-based netbooks with Windows CE | Aug 11 09:03 |
| DaemonFC | http://gizmodo.com/5321710/nvidias-tegra+based-netbook-christened-firefly | Aug 11 09:03 |
| DaemonFC | what could be more useless than Windows CE on ARM on a netbook? | Aug 11 09:04 |
| DaemonFC | it's not compatible with Windows software | Aug 11 09:04 |
| DaemonFC | what are they planning to do regarding application support? | Aug 11 09:04 |
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| schestowitz | Tanking Real Estate Values Take Toll on Pension Funds < http://nreionline.com/news/real_estate_values_toll_pension_funds/ > | Aug 11 09:17 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Delicious Founder: I Wish I Had Not Sold to Yahoo http://bit.ly/16SkZF | Aug 11 09:18 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Goldman Sachs in Talks to Acquire Treasury Department < http://ping.fm/f9nqK > [Joke, of course] | Aug 11 09:19 | |
| DaemonFC | the teachers unions will just wrangle all their losses out of the taxpayers | Aug 11 09:20 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.borowitzreport.com/article.aspx?ID=7045 | Aug 11 09:22 |
| schestowitz | Online Video goes Mainstream http://videotcy.com/media-extender/online-video-goes-mainstream | Aug 11 09:23 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft is trying to change tax law... http://www.techflash.com/microsoft/Microsoft_not_giving_up_entirely_on_Quincy_data_center_52914167.html | Aug 11 09:26 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/aug2009/tc2009087_110164.htm?chan=technology_technology+index+page_software | Aug 11 09:26 |
| schestowitz | Using blackmail | Aug 11 09:26 |
| DaemonFC | Windows Mobile is taking abeating | Aug 11 09:26 |
| DaemonFC | probably because a decent phone will run you about $430 | Aug 11 09:27 |
| trmanco | Wordpress 2.8.3 is vulnerable | Aug 11 09:33 |
| trmanco | :| | Aug 11 09:33 |
| trmanco | path has already been published, but there is still no release | Aug 11 09:33 |
| DaemonFC | governments can't just raise taxes and assume that it won't drive away business | Aug 11 09:36 |
| DaemonFC | that's not just a Microsoft thing | Aug 11 09:36 |
| trmanco | patch* | Aug 11 09:38 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More anti-GPL from IDG: http://ping.fm/HovW1 The only trend here is GPL FUD, not GPL denial | Aug 11 09:38 | |
| schestowitz | http://royal.pingdom.com/2009/08/10/laptops-in-extreme-and-unusual-locations/ | Aug 11 09:43 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: sigh | Aug 11 09:43 |
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| schestowitz | How to install Mandriva Linux < http://www.online-tech-tips.com/computer-tips/install-mandriva-linux/ > That's the version I use. Why use an old one as reference? | Aug 11 09:48 |
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| DaemonFC | [ Editor's note: InfoWorld tried to interview Richard Stallman, who runs the Free Software Foundation that created and manages the GPL, on this issue, but he demanded control of what we published, so we declined. ] | Aug 11 09:50 |
| DaemonFC | nice | Aug 11 09:50 |
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| MinceR | question is, what kind of control was it | Aug 11 09:51 |
| DaemonFC | "To force the free distribution of source code, the GPL requires publishers to place the source code on the disk they distribute their applications on. Under GPL, "you've got to give it away for free, and you've got to give the source code away for free as well," says analyst Kiewe." | Aug 11 09:51 |
| DaemonFC | since when do you have to do this? | Aug 11 09:51 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 09:51 |
| MinceR | since never | Aug 11 09:51 |
| DaemonFC | you don't have to include the source on the same disk | Aug 11 09:51 |
| schestowitz | Intel GMA500 (Poulsbo) on Fedora 11: repository (with working 3D / compiz support) < http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/08/10/intel-gma500-poulsbo-on-fedora-11-repository-with-working-3d-compiz-support/ > | Aug 11 09:52 |
| MinceR | poulsbo sucks | Aug 11 09:52 |
| MinceR | nobody should ever use it anyway | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: probably not to say "open source" nonsense | Aug 11 09:52 |
| MinceR | it's the weakest intel GMA | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | They only show their hatred of RMS | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | WIth such a statment | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | "demanded control of what we published" | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | Demanded | Aug 11 09:52 |
| schestowitz | Control.. | Aug 11 09:53 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: then RMS was right. | Aug 11 09:53 |
| schestowitz | Yeah, it figures | Aug 11 09:53 |
| schestowitz | Some fool whom I never saw writing for IDG before. | Aug 11 09:53 |
| DaemonFC | There's also an "Is Linux Still Relevant" article | Aug 11 09:55 |
| DaemonFC | strange that every other article you see published anymore is one of those | Aug 11 09:56 |
| DaemonFC | they don't even need to write new articles you know | Aug 11 09:56 |
| DaemonFC | they need to develop a story line generator that cuts and pastes and rearranges the ones they already wrote | Aug 11 09:57 |
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| DaemonFC | and makes up a shock title and author name | Aug 11 09:57 |
| MinceR | they just need to fire up Dissociated Press in emacs | Aug 11 09:57 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm, you don't suppose they're already doing that, do you? :D | Aug 11 09:58 |
| DaemonFC | it seems silly to pay someone a salary to do that by hand | Aug 11 09:59 |
| MinceR | they might be | Aug 11 09:59 |
| cubezzz | all the EV-1 owners loved their cars, but they still went to the crusher | Aug 11 10:00 |
| cubezzz | all the Zaurus owners loved their PDAs but Sharp stopped making them | Aug 11 10:01 |
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| cubezzz | didn't Walmart sell a Linux computer at one point, now they don't? | Aug 11 10:02 |
| cubezzz | there's been a push-back somewhere | Aug 11 10:02 |
| DaemonFC | it was a cheap horrible machine | Aug 11 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | well, actually there were several cheap horrible machines that Walmart has sold with Linux | Aug 11 10:03 |
| cubezzz | the point is, I can't just walk into a store and buy a linux computer, not easily | Aug 11 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | I think Microsoft is secretely supplying cheap horrible machines with Linux | Aug 11 10:03 |
| DaemonFC | I really do | Aug 11 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | what better way to make Linux look bad than by shipping it on a cheap horrible machine? | Aug 11 10:04 |
| MinceR | they're making computers now? | Aug 11 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | it's genius really | Aug 11 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | I think Microsoft owns Everex | Aug 11 10:04 |
| MinceR | or reselling them? | Aug 11 10:04 |
| DaemonFC | and is just not telling anyone | Aug 11 10:04 |
| cubezzz | ah, that's paranoid DaemonFC :) | Aug 11 10:04 |
| cubezzz | right, it's not like Microsoft makes actually computer | Aug 11 10:05 |
| DaemonFC | well, think about it, they sell shit PCs that have Linux on them | Aug 11 10:05 |
| DaemonFC | or decent PCs with Windows Vista | Aug 11 10:05 |
| DaemonFC | but the price is the same | Aug 11 10:05 |
| MinceR | oems in their grip do that already | Aug 11 10:05 |
| cubezzz | I have to give some props to Dell | Aug 11 10:05 |
| MinceR | then i have to take those props away. | Aug 11 10:06 |
| MinceR | :> | Aug 11 10:06 |
| cubezzz | they do sell a Linux netbook | Aug 11 10:06 |
| DaemonFC | easy way to make Linux look slow, incapable, and bug-ridden | Aug 11 10:06 |
| DaemonFC | make your own badly done distro and put it on bad hardware | Aug 11 10:06 |
| MinceR | dell is crap | Aug 11 10:06 |
| DaemonFC | the Everex gPC | Aug 11 10:06 |
| cubezzz | if money was no object, I get a nice new Panasonic Toughbook | Aug 11 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | really gOS is a modified Ubuntu | Aug 11 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | they use some kind of modified Enlightenment E17 | Aug 11 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | with a shit ton of Google Apps | Aug 11 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | it's fairly distrubing | Aug 11 10:07 |
| DaemonFC | *disturbing | Aug 11 10:07 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #vlc for #solaris 10: http://is.gd/2bByA http://is.gd/2bBz1 | Aug 11 10:07 | |
| DaemonFC | why use Enlightenment and take all your applications from GNOME? | Aug 11 10:08 |
| DaemonFC | Jesus | Aug 11 10:08 |
| MinceR | that's what gnome did long ago | Aug 11 10:08 |
| MinceR | isn't it? :> | Aug 11 10:08 |
| DaemonFC | you would really have to try to slap something worse together | Aug 11 10:08 |
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| MinceR | then m$ really tried. | Aug 11 10:08 |
| MinceR | they came up with vista! | Aug 11 10:09 |
| cubezzz | well, I'm using Fedora 10, I'm pretty happy with that | Aug 11 10:09 |
| DaemonFC | Enlightenment has to be the shittiest window manager there is for Linux | Aug 11 10:09 |
| DaemonFC | and GNOME apps = ewww | Aug 11 10:10 |
| DaemonFC | there's something fishy about gOS | Aug 11 10:10 |
| schestowitz | International Mozilla Store Back Online < http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2009/08/10/international-mozilla-store-back-online/ > | Aug 11 10:10 |
| DaemonFC | I think Enlightenment may have just been chosen because they only shipped the systems with 512 megs of RAM | Aug 11 10:11 |
| DaemonFC | nothing sinister, just cheap? | Aug 11 10:11 |
| schestowitz | Everex is out of business, IIRC | Aug 11 10:12 |
| schestowitz | Since a month ago | Aug 11 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | to be fair, the systems were only $200 | Aug 11 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | oh? | Aug 11 10:12 |
| DaemonFC | Hail Dorothy! | Aug 11 10:12 |
| schestowitz | Look it up | Aug 11 10:12 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC is starting to realize what the whole deal was about! | Aug 11 10:12 |
| cubezzz | Everex USA is closed, but I think the Taiwanese one is still going | Aug 11 10:14 |
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| DaemonFC | yeah, they still have drivers and documentation for US customers | Aug 11 10:14 |
| DaemonFC | who'd have thought that in this economy, the cheap PC maker would go down first? | Aug 11 10:15 |
| DaemonFC | I've found systems by dumpster diving that were faster than theirs though | Aug 11 10:15 |
| DaemonFC | *shrugs* | Aug 11 10:15 |
| cubezzz | I still find it surprising that windows seems to have such a hold on all the OEMs | Aug 11 10:15 |
| DaemonFC | it's cause it's CHEAP | Aug 11 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | if you're a major OEM | Aug 11 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | and they get to subsidize it by bombarding you with crapware | Aug 11 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | so $50 Home Premium - all the kickbacks = Maybe $10-20 | Aug 11 10:16 |
| DaemonFC | Why would an OEM not put Windows on their systems? | Aug 11 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | it's not costing them much | Aug 11 10:17 |
| cubezzz | sure, put windows on 90%, but at least put Linux or something else on the other 10% | Aug 11 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | now if you want to buy it, that's when the $200+ shit starts | Aug 11 10:17 |
| DaemonFC | and lose all their Microsoft Points? | Aug 11 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | (Not to be confused with the XBOX Live currency) | Aug 11 10:18 |
| cubezzz | there's no way Microsoft should be able to say "You have to sell 100% of your computers with windows preloaded" | Aug 11 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | they also give deals to companies like Walmart | Aug 11 10:18 |
| DaemonFC | if you buy 100,000 copies, they'll give you a better per unit price | Aug 11 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 10:19 |
| MinceR | the existence m$ Points even exists shows that they must be stopped | Aug 11 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | Walmart goes in and says "Give us this price or we use Linux" | Aug 11 10:19 |
| DaemonFC | Microsoft gives them that price | Aug 11 10:19 |
| cubezzz | you don't even get a CD nowadays | Aug 11 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | they can't say it | Aug 11 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | it's implied | Aug 11 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 10:20 |
| MinceR | there are supposed to be some controls against such anticompetitive practices | Aug 11 10:20 |
| MinceR | then again, the law doesn't work in the usa | Aug 11 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | it works | Aug 11 10:20 |
| MinceR | (doesn't work much better elsewhere either, to be fair) | Aug 11 10:20 |
| cubezzz | your DOJ is supposed to hold microsoft in check :) | Aug 11 10:20 |
| DaemonFC | when it wants to | Aug 11 10:20 |
| MinceR | it works so well, m$ was punished so much for monopoly abuse | Aug 11 10:20 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Aug 11 10:21 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: well, evidently it doesn't want to work in matters of anticompetitive practices | Aug 11 10:21 |
| DaemonFC | I'd say that Linux gets a fair shake, you can get it if you want it | Aug 11 10:21 |
| MinceR | or in matters of liberty | Aug 11 10:21 |
| MinceR | it doesn't | Aug 11 10:21 |
| DaemonFC | the market is only as big as demand wants it to be | Aug 11 10:21 |
| cubezzz | DaemonFC, the problem is I don't want to pay _any_ Microsoft tax | Aug 11 10:21 |
| MinceR | the market is as little as steve ballmer wants it to be | Aug 11 10:22 |
| cubezzz | so my only choice is to build from parts | Aug 11 10:22 |
| MinceR | cubezzz: which you can't do if you want a laptop | Aug 11 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: You can't build a PC? | Aug 11 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | it takes like maybe an hour with all the parts | Aug 11 10:22 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: you can build a laptop? | Aug 11 10:22 |
| cubezzz | MinceR: I think it is possible to build a laptop nowadays | Aug 11 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | you can buy a Linux laptop | Aug 11 10:22 |
| MinceR | cubezzz: sure, if you're very rich | Aug 11 10:22 |
| cubezzz | never tried it myself though | Aug 11 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | or you can demand a refund for Windows | Aug 11 10:22 |
| DaemonFC | they don't like to advertise that | Aug 11 10:23 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: there's a tiny little selection of linux laptops | Aug 11 10:23 |
| MinceR | and it's dwindling | Aug 11 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | refuse the Windows EULA | Aug 11 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | demand a refund | Aug 11 10:23 |
| cubezzz | Dell has a netbook with Ubuntu | Aug 11 10:23 |
| MinceR | that doesn't necessarily work | Aug 11 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | they'll give you a check for what that copy of Windows cost them | Aug 11 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | about $50 | Aug 11 10:23 |
| cubezzz | DaemonFC, have you ever actually got a windows refund? :) | Aug 11 10:23 |
| DaemonFC | yes | Aug 11 10:23 |
| MinceR | last time i checked it said explicitly that if you demand a refund for windows, that's demanding a refund for whatever it was bundled with | Aug 11 10:23 |
| MinceR | so you get to ship your computer back with everything | Aug 11 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR: They can't do that | Aug 11 10:24 |
| MinceR | so your point is that if i can afford a really good lawyer, i can get a refund | Aug 11 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | I bought a Compaq Presario on a Christmas sale at Walmart | Aug 11 10:24 |
| MinceR | and that's supposed to be your idea of fairness? | Aug 11 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | with XP on it | Aug 11 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | and demanded the refund | Aug 11 10:24 |
| DaemonFC | I didn't want it for XP | Aug 11 10:24 |
| cubezzz | you probably would have to be pretty determined to get the refund | Aug 11 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | it creates one hell of a logistics problem if thousands of people demand their right for a refund | Aug 11 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | that tickles me | Aug 11 10:25 |
| MinceR | in fact, demanding the refund is a lot more trouble than buyers should be expected to have | Aug 11 10:25 |
| MinceR | that's not a fair situation | Aug 11 10:25 |
| DaemonFC | meh, I didn't even really expend a lot of effort on it | Aug 11 10:25 |
| cubezzz | right, just give the option of blank computer, I'll do the rest | Aug 11 10:25 |
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| MinceR | right, demanding a refund is _exactly_ the same amount of effort as selecting "GNU/Linux" instead of "Windows Vista" in the web configurator | Aug 11 10:26 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Aug 11 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | I mailed them back the COA label, they sent me a $50 check | Aug 11 10:26 |
| MinceR | it fucking isn't | Aug 11 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | the end | Aug 11 10:26 |
| cubezzz | mailed who? | Aug 11 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | HP/Compaq | Aug 11 10:26 |
| schestowitz | That IDG GPL FUD is better off ignoring, as debunking it would only give it attention | Aug 11 10:26 |
| DaemonFC | I talked to a supervisor, they actually have a system in place for that, oddly enough | Aug 11 10:27 |
| DaemonFC | so it tells you people do ask for a refund sometimes | Aug 11 10:27 |
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| DaemonFC | they opened a support ticket, told me how to mail them the COA label | Aug 11 10:27 |
| DaemonFC | the hardest part about it was mailing the COA label in | Aug 11 10:28 |
| MinceR | ok, i'll repeat it _just for you_ | Aug 11 10:28 |
| MinceR | 114743 < MinceR> right, demanding a refund is _exactly_ the same amount of effort as selecting "GNU/Linux" instead of "Windows Vista" in the web configurator | Aug 11 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | I had to go get a stamp at the post office you see | Aug 11 10:28 |
| cubezzz | ok, that's good to know HP/Compaq refunded you | Aug 11 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, except that then you get fucked | Aug 11 10:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | ye gods | Aug 11 10:28 |
| Diablo-D3 | is DaemonFC still here? | Aug 11 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | less RAM, no printer, crappy selection | Aug 11 10:28 |
| DaemonFC | costs more | Aug 11 10:28 |
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| DaemonFC | they find ways to punish you for choosing Linux to begin with | Aug 11 10:29 |
| DaemonFC | their promos almost never apply to their Linux systems | Aug 11 10:29 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: well, apparently we need a m$ apologist around to crapflood the channel | Aug 11 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: wtf | Aug 11 10:29 |
| Diablo-D3 | if Microsoft would pay me, I'd do it better :< | Aug 11 10:30 |
| DaemonFC | I actually ended up about $200 ahead | Aug 11 10:30 |
| cubezzz | I don't find HP too bad to deal with | Aug 11 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | cubezzz: no | Aug 11 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | HP consumer shit is bad | Aug 11 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | their enterprise stuff is fine | Aug 11 10:30 |
| cubezzz | they gave me programming specs | Aug 11 10:30 |
| cubezzz | for my scanner | Aug 11 10:30 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: i don't know if he does it because he gets paid for it or because he believes their products to be so awesome... or both. | Aug 11 10:30 |
| cubezzz | Diablo-D3, yeah, this was the dev group for scanners | Aug 11 10:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: well, if he legitimately likes them, we technically cant call him a shill | Aug 11 10:31 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: we can call him a fucktard, but we cant call him a shill | Aug 11 10:31 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: i prefer to call him a fucktard anyway. :> | Aug 11 10:31 |
| DaemonFC | because it makes you sound like a 15 year old? | Aug 11 10:32 |
| MinceR | it does? | Aug 11 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | it does? | Aug 11 10:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | he might be right | Aug 11 10:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How to Advance GNU/Linux Awareness http://ping.fm/BNiH7 | Aug 11 10:32 | |
| Diablo-D3 | I've been saying it since I was like 10 | Aug 11 10:32 |
| MinceR | oh, right, now i remember | Aug 11 10:32 |
| MinceR | saying bad things about m$ fanboys makes you sound like a 1x year old | Aug 11 10:33 |
| DaemonFC | Mincer: Now if we can just get you to play Halo 2 and shout "fucktard" into the microphone after I corpse hump you | Aug 11 10:33 |
| MinceR | x is chosen by the m$ fanboy | Aug 11 10:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | man, I missed celebrating my 15th anniversary of calling people fucktards | Aug 11 10:33 |
| MinceR | i've forgot about that rule | Aug 11 10:33 |
| DaemonFC | .... | Aug 11 10:33 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: and how old does corpse humping make you look? | Aug 11 10:33 |
| DaemonFC | 25 | Aug 11 10:33 |
| MinceR | lol | Aug 11 10:33 |
| MinceR | apparently m$ fanboys' idea of being an adult is corpse humping in an FPS made for a system that lacks the proper controllers for FPS-es | Aug 11 10:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: well | Aug 11 10:34 |
| MinceR | i'm sure you feel really smug about it | Aug 11 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | Halo 2 for VISTA! | Aug 11 10:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | we know our soldiers in iraq corpse hump | Aug 11 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | nyaaah | Aug 11 10:34 |
| MinceR | Diablo-D3: well, they're usians -- nuff said. | Aug 11 10:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: hey! | Aug 11 10:34 |
| MinceR | so is DaemonFC. | Aug 11 10:34 |
| DaemonFC | no, they fuck them before killing everyone around and burning the house down to destroy evidence | Aug 11 10:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | I only corpse hump DaemonFC's mom | Aug 11 10:35 |
| DaemonFC | there was a newspaper article about it | Aug 11 10:35 |
| DaemonFC | I just have to assume that "abstinence only" "education" is there so there's more future soldiers | Aug 11 10:36 |
| DaemonFC | hiring from the shallow end of the gene pool is never a bad idea | Aug 11 10:36 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Web and New Form Factors Ease Migration to GNU/Linux http://ping.fm/OWChK | Aug 11 10:36 | |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: why would the military ever hire you? get real | Aug 11 10:36 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: then you should ensign immediately. | Aug 11 10:36 |
| DaemonFC | I've spent my whole life sticking it to the man, how can *I* be the man? *grin* | Aug 11 10:37 |
| MinceR | you can't | Aug 11 10:37 |
| DaemonFC | there you go | Aug 11 10:37 |
| MinceR | but you can be a mindless grunt sent into the grinder _for_ the man! | Aug 11 10:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | dude, your whole life a man has been sticking it in you, stfu. | Aug 11 10:37 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Aug 11 10:38 |
| MinceR | just like you're a mindless zombie advertising the man, right now | Aug 11 10:38 |
| DaemonFC | nope | Aug 11 10:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | microsoft is the man! *gasp!* it all makes sense now! | Aug 11 10:38 |
| DaemonFC | to be sticking it to me, they'd have to be making money from me | Aug 11 10:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: I would have thought the man was... I dunno, bigger. | Aug 11 10:38 |
| DaemonFC | considering I don't pay them anything, that could be a problem | Aug 11 10:38 |
| MinceR | well, i think "the man" isn't a good term | Aug 11 10:38 |
| MinceR | there's nothing manly about trying to make up for one's insecurities by oppressing people | Aug 11 10:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: unless Im oppressing DaemonFC's mom | Aug 11 10:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | she likes it rough | Aug 11 10:39 |
| DaemonFC | the 90s called | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | they want their insults back | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 10:40 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: sorry for using insults that existed before you were born | Aug 11 10:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | the jerk store called, they're out of you. | Aug 11 10:40 |
| MinceR | i really thought they could be learned despite that | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | MinceR 1983? | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | perhaps | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | that was just before I was born | Aug 11 10:40 |
| DaemonFC | an entire year before | Aug 11 10:41 |
| DaemonFC | that go back far enough? | Aug 11 10:41 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: then you should work on growing up instead of wasting your breath here | Aug 11 10:41 |
| MinceR | you're really far behind | Aug 11 10:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | LUKE I AM YOUR FAAATHER. The condom broke. | Aug 11 10:41 |
| MinceR | lol | Aug 11 10:41 |
| MinceR | "luke, i fucked your mother" | Aug 11 10:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Real-Time Linux Workshop is Coming http://ping.fm/ZnLuc , Overview of Linux Features to Come http://ping.fm/EHNM8 | Aug 11 10:41 | |
| DaemonFC | Never!!!!!! Those things get stress tested! | Aug 11 10:41 |
| DaemonFC | It's IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!! | Aug 11 10:41 |
| DaemonFC | the cheap ones break | Aug 11 10:42 |
| *amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04 | Aug 11 10:42 | |
| Diablo-D3 | That explains your existence | Aug 11 10:42 |
| MinceR | indeed | Aug 11 10:42 |
| DaemonFC | I don't think Darth Vader is poor | Aug 11 10:42 |
| MinceR | bbl, food | Aug 11 10:42 |
| DaemonFC | I mean he is kind of the second in command of Sith-land | Aug 11 10:43 |
| DaemonFC | right? | Aug 11 10:43 |
| Diablo-D3 | bbl, DaemonFC's mom and a pack of trojans | Aug 11 10:43 |
| DaemonFC | Dick Cheney made a fair bit of money | Aug 11 10:43 |
| DaemonFC | http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8194691.stm | Aug 11 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | Nazi war criminal jailed for life | Aug 11 10:49 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment Thinks Ahead of the Competition http://ping.fm/mEnMf | Aug 11 10:49 | |
| DaemonFC | yay, the Brits took the last 2 weeks of his life | Aug 11 10:49 |
| DaemonFC | way to go | Aug 11 10:50 |
| DaemonFC | oh, I'm sorry, he was tried in Italy | Aug 11 10:51 |
| DaemonFC | well anyway, why do they bother? | Aug 11 10:51 |
| DaemonFC | 90 years old, how long could he possibly live? | Aug 11 10:51 |
| Ng | what baout if he was 80? | Aug 11 10:51 |
| DaemonFC | waiting 64 years to bring someone to trial is pretty damned stupid | Aug 11 10:52 |
| DaemonFC | at that point, it doesn't even matter anymore | Aug 11 10:52 |
| Ng | do you know why it took 64 years? | Aug 11 10:53 |
| Ng | what if it had only taken 54 years? or 44? | Aug 11 10:53 |
| DaemonFC | no, and I don't care | Aug 11 10:53 |
| Ng | you seem to be very keen to draw lines | Aug 11 10:53 |
| Ng | if you don't care why do you think it's stupid? | Aug 11 10:53 |
| DaemonFC | they already let him live his entire life by failure to catch him while there was something to take | Aug 11 10:53 |
| DaemonFC | he basically got away with it | Aug 11 10:54 |
| Ng | most of his life, not his entire life, he's still alive :) | Aug 11 10:54 |
| DaemonFC | when I'm 90 years old, I don't care what happens | Aug 11 10:54 |
| Ng | let's see you say that when you're 90 and your mortality is staring you in the face every day | Aug 11 10:55 |
| DaemonFC | it wouldn't stop me from robbing a bank today if I knew they wouldn't catch me til I was 90 | Aug 11 10:55 |
| DaemonFC | (statute of limitations aside) | Aug 11 10:55 |
| DaemonFC | he's 90 years old, what's left? | Aug 11 10:55 |
| Ng | he could live another 20 years | Aug 11 10:56 |
| DaemonFC | doubt it | Aug 11 10:57 |
| Ng | why is a day in his life worth less than a day in yours just because he's 90 times your age? | Aug 11 10:57 |
| DaemonFC | most people would be dead 20 years before him | Aug 11 10:57 |
| DaemonFC | if he died today | Aug 11 10:57 |
| DaemonFC | if they gave me a life sentence, they would be taking 50-70 years probably | Aug 11 10:58 |
| DaemonFC | from him? he could already die of old age any second | Aug 11 10:58 |
| Ng | you could die any second | Aug 11 10:58 |
| Ng | "Once upon a time, a god asked a great king 'What is the most amazing thing in the world?'. The king replied that every day a million souls pass into the abode of death and yet none believes that they shall follow." | Aug 11 10:59 |
| DaemonFC | I know I'll die, but I'll probably still be alive and kicking 50 years after he's gone | Aug 11 11:00 |
| Ng | in that case he should definitely be allowed to murder anyone he wants without being jailed! | Aug 11 11:00 |
| DaemonFC | or they could just execute him now | Aug 11 11:01 |
| DaemonFC | and get it over with | Aug 11 11:01 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sub-notebooks with Charity Killer's Chipset and GNU/Linux Improve http://ping.fm/z3fHK | Aug 11 11:01 | |
| Ng | DaemonFC: germany doesn't have the death penalty, so they can't do that | Aug 11 11:02 |
| DaemonFC | I know, their loss | Aug 11 11:02 |
| DaemonFC | I say we just have a fire sale on bad guys | Aug 11 11:02 |
| DaemonFC | everything must go | Aug 11 11:02 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 11:02 |
| Ng | you are mistaken, it's their win, because they are a civilised country | Aug 11 11:03 |
| DaemonFC | no | Aug 11 11:03 |
| DaemonFC | they let rapists and murderers live | Aug 11 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | they are not civilized | Aug 11 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | a civilized country disposes of their worst criminals | Aug 11 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | better for everyone | Aug 11 11:04 |
| Ng | have you ever looked at a list of countries that still have the death penalty? ;) | Aug 11 11:04 |
| DaemonFC | I know, they're squeemish about it | Aug 11 11:04 |
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| DaemonFC | I don't have any problem with executing some of the sick fucks who live on in prison | Aug 11 11:05 |
| schestowitz | Watch your language | Aug 11 11:05 |
| DaemonFC | they need to let the family members do it if they want | Aug 11 11:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: ban him already | Aug 11 11:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: everyone has asked you to do it, do it already | Aug 11 11:06 |
| DaemonFC | there's no justice in a system that lets murderers live out the rest of their lives in comfort | Aug 11 11:06 |
| Ng | DaemonFC: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html skip down to the bottom and see the glorious teammates of the US in the death penalty league, then maybe wonder if you're young and angry and wrong ;) | Aug 11 11:07 |
| DaemonFC | at taxpayer expense for that matter | Aug 11 11:07 |
| Ng | they're pretty much all your enemies, which is as much hilarious as it is sadly telling | Aug 11 11:07 |
| DaemonFC | no, they should let the families of those victims execute them in whatever way they want | Aug 11 11:08 |
| DaemonFC | well, on this issue, they're right | Aug 11 11:08 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not such a bleeding heart that I'd have any problem with executing a Charles Manson | Aug 11 11:08 |
| Ng | but you'd let a 90 year old war criminal walk free? | Aug 11 11:09 |
| Ng | strange contradiction don't you think? | Aug 11 11:09 |
| Ng | surely the children of those he murdered should be allowed to hack him to death with machetes? | Aug 11 11:09 |
| DaemonFC | no, I didn't say they should | Aug 11 11:09 |
| DaemonFC | they should shoot him | Aug 11 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | stuff him in a pine box | Aug 11 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | and put him in the ground | Aug 11 11:10 |
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| DaemonFC | it's better than what his victims got | Aug 11 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | and 64 more years than he deserved | Aug 11 11:10 |
| DaemonFC | instead they get a Nazi war criminal and are all like "No, can't kill him, it wouldn'r be humane" | Aug 11 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | I mean, damn | Aug 11 11:11 |
| DaemonFC | how many people do you have to butcher for the far left to shut the hell up and take the gloves off? | Aug 11 11:12 |
| Ng | haha, "the far left" \o/ | Aug 11 11:12 |
| Ng | I think you mean "normal people" | Aug 11 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | no, I'm sure if someone murdered your whole family, you'd change your mind | Aug 11 11:12 |
| DaemonFC | pretty damned fast | Aug 11 11:12 |
| Ng | why are you sure of that? | Aug 11 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | you'd want them to hand you a bat and the guy that did it | Aug 11 11:13 |
| DaemonFC | that's what you would want | Aug 11 11:13 |
| Ng | you can't possibly know that, and even if it were true it doesn't mean society should indulge an individual's desire for revenge | Aug 11 11:13 |
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| DaemonFC | they should | Aug 11 11:13 |
| Ng | that lowers the individual and everyone else to the level of the murderer | Aug 11 11:14 |
| DaemonFC | no, it doesn't | Aug 11 11:14 |
| Ng | it absolutely does | Aug 11 11:14 |
| DaemonFC | it's called consequences | Aug 11 11:14 |
| DaemonFC | apparently that concept is lost on Europeans | Aug 11 11:14 |
| DaemonFC | their life should be forfeit the moment that they do that, and they should damned well know it | Aug 11 11:15 |
| Ng | you seem like you'd prefer to do away with courts and judges and just have a mob with pitchforks | Aug 11 11:15 |
| DaemonFC | no, not at all | Aug 11 11:16 |
| DaemonFC | fair trial and THEN mob with pitch forks | Aug 11 11:16 |
| DaemonFC | who says you can't have everything? B-) | Aug 11 11:16 |
| Ng | and what do you gain by killing a murderer? you haven't punished them at all | Aug 11 11:16 |
| DaemonFC | there's worset thigns than just dying | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | did I say lethal injection? | Aug 11 11:17 |
| Ng | like being stuck in a cage for decades? | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | that's not what they do | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | those people have exercise equipment and television | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | all kinds of stuff | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | better than free people in some countries | Aug 11 11:17 |
| Ng | they are denied their liberty though, that is the consequence | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | hardly | Aug 11 11:17 |
| DaemonFC | prison doesn't scare them or they wouldn't be criminals | Aug 11 11:18 |
| Ng | television isn't liberty | Aug 11 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | they don't care, prison doesn't bother them | Aug 11 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | it's a mindset they have | Aug 11 11:18 |
| DaemonFC | you can't threaten them with something that doesn't mean anything to them | Aug 11 11:19 |
| Ng | and yet you still have murder in places where you have the death penalty | Aug 11 11:19 |
| Ng | so that's clearly not a deterrant either | Aug 11 11:19 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Aug 11 11:19 |
| Ng | really | Aug 11 11:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Geek Parents Reject N00b Boyfriend [Video] http://bit.ly/14v0I | Aug 11 11:20 | |
| DaemonFC | liberals have made it so hard to execute someone it takes 20 years to do it anyway | Aug 11 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | and they get like 20 million appeals | Aug 11 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | and are painlessly put to sleep like an elderly cat | Aug 11 11:20 |
| DaemonFC | if it ever happens | Aug 11 11:20 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Microsoft: IE6 Cannot Die http://bit.ly/5LnBH || meh, we should not listen to them... | Aug 11 11:21 | |
| Ng | I've seen some suggestions that lethal injection is actually not painless at all | Aug 11 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | well, that's a good start them | Aug 11 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | *then | Aug 11 11:21 |
| Ng | but one of the injections induces paralysis, so it's impossible to express the pain of the heart-stopping injection | Aug 11 11:21 |
| MinceR | re | Aug 11 11:21 |
| DaemonFC | lets just take the uncertainty out and cause them the most excruciating death imaginable | Aug 11 11:22 |
| MinceR | 120428 < DaemonFC> I mean he is kind of the second in command of Sith-land | Aug 11 11:22 |
| MinceR | he was until he got killed | Aug 11 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | well, there's that | Aug 11 11:22 |
| MinceR | or approximately, depending on how far Palpatine got in falling before that | Aug 11 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | and I don't see Dick Cheney ever redeeming himself | Aug 11 11:22 |
| Ng | DaemonFC: let's not :) | Aug 11 11:22 |
| DaemonFC | IE 6? simple, tell them to upgrade or go away | Aug 11 11:24 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Robotics Companies Reach Realisation That Linux-like Peer Development is Better http://ping.fm/KnLQG | Aug 11 11:25 | |
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| DaemonFC | "The engineering point of view on IE6 starts as an operating systems supplier. Dropping support for IE6 is not an option because we committed to supporting the IE included with Windows for the lifespan of the product." | Aug 11 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | so IE 6 doesn't die til 2014 | Aug 11 11:27 |
| DaemonFC | super | Aug 11 11:27 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Firefox 3.6 is Slated for Release This Year http://ping.fm/3USL3 | Aug 11 11:33 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable Google’s Orkut Drops Support for IE6 http://bit.ly/3Wy6gD | Aug 11 11:35 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RE: @mashable All the major websites should also do this! http://disq.us/1r3q | Aug 11 11:37 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Corruption Found in Journals and Reporting http://ping.fm/WJogY | Aug 11 11:38 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ISPs Fight Surveillance Demands http://ping.fm/kWwcU | Aug 11 11:41 | |
| DaemonFC | http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/today-wednesday-best-bets-viewing-meteor-shower | Aug 11 11:45 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Encyclopedia Britannica Resorts to Patents, Like Other Dying Entities (SCOpyright, MicroSCOft) http://ping.fm/tXPFw | Aug 11 11:51 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Too Monopolistic Bodies (Created by the Rich for the Rich) Grow Closer http://ping.fm/Jo3Fs | Aug 11 11:53 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Abuse Against Sub-notebooks Carries on http://ping.fm/5xHNX | Aug 11 11:58 | |
| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992 | Aug 11 11:58 |
| DaemonFC | January 8 – George H. W. Bush is televised falling violently ill at a state dinner in Japan, vomiting into the lap of Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa and fainting. | Aug 11 11:58 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Aug 11 11:58 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bill Gates Dumps MSFT (Maybe he Knows Better) http://ping.fm/LsWiL | Aug 11 11:59 | |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: that new article is bs | Aug 11 12:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats most likely a planned sell | Aug 11 12:00 |
| Diablo-D3 | has nothing to do with microsoft | Aug 11 12:00 |
| MinceR | but was the plan to sell when he knew things were going badly? :> | Aug 11 12:02 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Windows Mobile on the Road to Nowhere http://ping.fm/vFklB | Aug 11 12:02 | |
| Diablo-D3 | MinceR: thats not what I mean | Aug 11 12:02 |
| Diablo-D3 | he needed the money | Aug 11 12:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | its also the size of a planned sale | Aug 11 12:03 |
| Diablo-D3 | (ie, very very small) | Aug 11 12:03 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Vicious Attack on Yahoo! Harms Free Software http://ping.fm/1qbVg | Aug 11 12:04 | |
| DaemonFC | 7 million shares is tiny? | Aug 11 12:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | when you have almost 800 million, yes | Aug 11 12:04 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft is Still Aggressive Against Web Standards http://ping.fm/onAOM | Aug 11 12:05 | |
| Diablo-D3 | he sold about 1% of his shares. | Aug 11 12:05 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, that's "only" about $169 million | Aug 11 12:05 |
| DaemonFC | that's not that much for Bill Gates | Aug 11 12:06 |
| Diablo-D3 | rich people who are invested in their company heavily do small buys and sells like that all the time | Aug 11 12:06 |
| DaemonFC | why? | Aug 11 12:06 |
| DaemonFC | what's the point of selling it while it's in the crapper and buying it while it's expensive? | Aug 11 12:06 |
| DaemonFC | isn't that kind of backwards? | Aug 11 12:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | to cover debts/margins? to invest in something else? to visit vegas? | Aug 11 12:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | who cares | Aug 11 12:07 |
| DaemonFC | actually, Microsoft has been kind of stagnant for the last few years anyway | Aug 11 12:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | its a fact they do it, why they do it is immaterial | Aug 11 12:07 |
| *Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 11 12:07 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "miley cyrus" on "If you had a chance to hang out with one actress.... who ?" vote too ➔ http://bit.ly/Av76Q | Aug 11 12:08 | |
| DaemonFC | invest in something else sounds best | Aug 11 12:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | he could also be donating money to a charitable organization | Aug 11 12:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | it doesnt matter why he does it | Aug 11 12:09 |
| *lis` (n=lis@pub082136120023.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 11 12:09 | |
| Diablo-D3 | the only thing that matters is it was a small holding and is not indicative of anything | Aug 11 12:09 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "Demi Lovato" on "Who's prettier?" vote too ➔ http://bit.ly/rfewf | Aug 11 12:10 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @tweetmeme Carsonified » Five Things That Will Kill Your Site http://bit.ly/19Cr7V | Aug 11 12:17 | |
| schestowitz | Nice montage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bov9M2gEgcE&feature=PlayList&p=720F404A66AB6C14&index=32 | Aug 11 12:19 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] KDE 4.3 on a MacBook Pro: http://is.gd/2bMrw | Aug 11 12:55 | |
| oiaohm | Really is funny DaemonFC. Why be selling shares when the market is down. | Aug 11 12:58 |
| oiaohm | If the stocks are good. | Aug 11 12:58 |
| Ng | "the market" is irrelevant :) | Aug 11 12:59 |
| Ng | if you hold a load of MSFT shares and you need some cash, you sell them | Aug 11 13:00 |
| Ng | they're not quite back where they were at their peak, but MSFT has rebounded a good amount | Aug 11 13:00 |
| Ng | well, their peak within the last 5 years, the absolute peak was a decade ago | Aug 11 13:01 |
| schestowitz | You sell when you foresee a decline | Aug 11 13:02 |
| schestowitz | Unless you must liquify | Aug 11 13:02 |
| schestowitz | *liquidate | Aug 11 13:02 |
| Ng | if bill gates was any good at forseeing declines he'd have sold a big stack of shares last year ;) | Aug 11 13:03 |
| Ng | not a (relatively) tiny amount now | Aug 11 13:03 |
| oiaohm | He did sell an ammount last year. | Aug 11 13:03 |
| oiaohm | That is why the question of motive exist Ng. | Aug 11 13:05 |
| *lis` has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Aug 11 13:06 | |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl91YF1d3Kg | Aug 11 13:09 |
| DaemonFC | Rachel Maddow exposes the Republican astroturfer millionaires | Aug 11 13:09 |
| oiaohm | You have missed it. | Aug 11 13:13 |
| oiaohm | Drug companies don't want health care reform. | Aug 11 13:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: who has ops in here? | Aug 11 13:13 |
| oiaohm | If a system enters the USA like that is here in Australia. | Aug 11 13:14 |
| oiaohm | Profit for drug companies drop massively. DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | why do you think the drug companies destroyed medicare under the bush years | Aug 11 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | you sign up for Facebook and get visited by the ghosts of shitness past | Aug 11 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | I swear | Aug 11 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 13:14 |
| Diablo-D3 | medicare part D makes both drug companies and insurance companies rich | Aug 11 13:14 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: is about the only op unless he has issues one in case he is not here Diablo-D3. | Aug 11 13:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: so why is DaemonFC still here >_> | Aug 11 13:15 |
| oiaohm | Diablo-D3: when DaemonFC loses an arguement he accepts it and does not keep on bring it up. | Aug 11 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: but he just starts another argument or says some other stupid shit | Aug 11 13:16 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: he also likes microsoft products | Aug 11 13:16 |
| DaemonFC | who are these people? Facebook keeps adding people I haven't talked to in 5 years or who I don't even know | Aug 11 13:16 |
| DaemonFC | gah | Aug 11 13:16 |
| oiaohm | There is always a mixture of people Diablo-D3. | Aug 11 13:17 |
| DaemonFC | there's a few I had on my AIM list 10 years ago, cool | Aug 11 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | and the internet remembers my sex life better than I do apparently, geez | Aug 11 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 13:19 |
| *DaemonFC considers deleting his account to keep this list from growing | Aug 11 13:19 | |
| DaemonFC | and I got a pingback | Aug 11 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | excitement never ceases | Aug 11 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | http://whatwillweuse.com/2009/08/10/marketing-foss-part-2/ | Aug 11 13:22 |
| oiaohm | Nice the game is progressing go back 5 years people would not even been worryng about heavy marketing of foss DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | no, 5 years ago it was just the XP munchkins covering "It's a Small World After All" :) | Aug 11 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | and you had to lean your head out of the ride and barf now and then | Aug 11 13:27 |
| oiaohm | The thing I away find as funny is people laughing at Linux as being sold as a toy. | Aug 11 13:28 |
| oiaohm | That is exactly what was though of dos when it was first sold. | Aug 11 13:28 |
| oiaohm | It was a toy machine compared to Unix mainframes. | Aug 11 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | I still find the story amusing of when someone asked Bill Gates if UNIX posed a threat to Microsoft (back in the 80s) | Aug 11 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | he smiled and asked "Which UNIX?" | Aug 11 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | UNIX was too fragmented and top heavy to use in any meaningful way on a PC | Aug 11 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | now it's just too old and there's too many throwbacks to bad design | Aug 11 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | there needs to be a reinvention of the operating system, but nobody is doing it | Aug 11 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Very poor arguement. | Aug 11 13:31 |
| oiaohm | Thinking that Unix is just a brand name not a standard. | Aug 11 13:32 |
| DaemonFC | well, Alan Cox finally had it out with Linus Torvalds and quit maintaining the TTY subsystem | Aug 11 13:32 |
| DaemonFC | the TTY subsystem is a total archaic mess | Aug 11 13:32 |
| DaemonFC | and the only reason it's not worse is because top people like Cox unmangled it enough to use | Aug 11 13:32 |
| oiaohm | The disput between Alan Cox and Linus is not a clear cut as you are making out. | Aug 11 13:32 |
| DaemonFC | of course it is | Aug 11 13:33 |
| oiaohm | The thing Alan Cox was altering is not documented in Posix standard for TTY. | Aug 11 13:33 |
| DaemonFC | Torvalds wanted him to break a dozen things because emacs has a bug | Aug 11 13:33 |
| oiaohm | It not part of the standard. | Aug 11 13:33 |
| DaemonFC | sounds pretty clear cut to me | Aug 11 13:33 |
| oiaohm | First thing you missed its not part of the standard. | Aug 11 13:33 |
| DaemonFC | then why is it there? | Aug 11 13:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | if its not part of the standard... it should be removed | Aug 11 13:34 |
| DaemonFC | Linux has many things that are not POSIX standards | Aug 11 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Alan Cox was doing a alteration that breaks application compadiblity with a particular version. | Aug 11 13:34 |
| DaemonFC | that's why BSD has to support Linux "extensions" in an optional subsystem | Aug 11 13:34 |
| oiaohm | Ie 2.4 and 2.6 have different network stacks. | Aug 11 13:34 |
| oiaohm | TTY might become trigger to change to 2.8 linux kernel yet. | Aug 11 13:34 |
| DaemonFC | in an ideal world, Linux would conform to standards | Aug 11 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | but it really doesn't | Aug 11 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | it's kind of the Internet Explorer of POSIX from my understanding | Aug 11 13:35 |
| oiaohm | If you are going to break application compadiblity with kernel you are ment to plan a major version change of kernel. | Aug 11 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | and if you want a better POSIX system, you're better off with FreeBSD | Aug 11 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Linux does conform to posix standards. | Aug 11 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Very closely. | Aug 11 13:35 |
| oiaohm | Problem is there is a lot outside posix standard that is not defined. | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | then why does FreeBSD need an entire subsystem devoted to Linux simulation? | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | if applications are written to POSIX standards they port | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | if they're not, you need a compatibility system | Aug 11 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Posix applications just work. | Aug 11 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Pure ones do. | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | so why are Linux applications special? | Aug 11 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Posix does not define syscall numbers. | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | why don't they port? why do they need non-standard extensions? | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Pure posix applications built for Linux just need remaped syscalls. | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | Nothing more. | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | FreeBSD added extra emulation to cover other areas. | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | You are aware no where in posix defines sound card outputs. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, implementation gaps | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | bummer | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | There are a huge long lists of areas posix does not cover. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | means everyone with a POSIX system gets to fill in the blank | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | their own special way :P | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Were both freebsd and Linux did there own things. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Linux syscall's support are a requirement for Unix trademark usage these days. | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Most because Linux syscall numbers are stable. | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | linux distributions in particular annoy me because they all take a sort of "artistic license" in putting their systems together | Aug 11 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Freebsd has changed there syscall numbers between versions and even include a system to remap syscalls due to difference between own versions. | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | at least with FreeBSD I know what I get in the base system | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | Linux has no such concept because everything is an add-on | Aug 11 13:40 |
| oiaohm | FreeBSD kernel with debian on top. | Aug 11 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Sorry Freebsd comes in many forms DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | if I get an "Ubuntu base system" it's jsut whatever they decided to package together from seperate projects | Aug 11 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Not always with BSD parts. | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | yeah, those are obscure though | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | I doubt anyone is using it | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | it's not even easily installable or supported | Aug 11 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Most Linux distributions are using a common core parts. | Aug 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | To the same extent netBSd use common core parts to FreeBSD | Aug 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | BSD have not had as much distribution spliting. | Aug 11 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | I don't see why you would want to bust up a coherent system that was designed by the same team and replace it with GNU parts and pieces instead | Aug 11 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | if that floats your boat, by all means, but I don't see the point | Aug 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | There are some applications that only work with GNU parts. | Aug 11 13:43 |
| oiaohm | And fail to run on BSD parts. | Aug 11 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | like what? | Aug 11 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | I've never come across any such thing | Aug 11 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Can be as simple as a application using bash shell scripts. | Aug 11 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | bashisms | Aug 11 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | gah | Aug 11 13:44 |
| oiaohm | And there are a lot more. | Aug 11 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | strangulation of the people that use those would be a good start | Aug 11 13:44 |
| oiaohm | That you have not come across them is luck. | Aug 11 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Or maybe you prefer to forget when you do DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | I'd rather just forget all of the scripts that use those | Aug 11 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | and BASH | Aug 11 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | tcsh is the typical shell for BSD | Aug 11 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | and it is POSIX compliant | Aug 11 13:45 |
| oiaohm | There are a few programs that depend on particular features of glibc | Aug 11 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | with no added crap | Aug 11 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | you can pull in glibc without taking a wrecking ball to your in-place system | Aug 11 13:46 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Some complex applications you can basically end up with a wrecking ball. | Aug 11 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Needing Glibc gnu C++ extentions bash java and php. | Aug 11 13:47 |
| oiaohm | And apache. | Aug 11 13:47 |
| oiaohm | To work. | Aug 11 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | the Linuxulator is fairly lightweight anyway, I have it just because I do have a few proprietary programs that were written and compiled with Linux in mind | Aug 11 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | performance is equal to Linux | Aug 11 13:48 |
| oiaohm | A long term ago there was a reverse mapping for freebsd applications running on Linux. | Aug 11 13:48 |
| oiaohm | It kinda died out. | Aug 11 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's easier to use the Linuxulator than to ask the company that made the software to quit being stupid | Aug 11 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Aug 11 13:49 |
| oiaohm | More because closed source companies stoped releasing applications for freebsd. | Aug 11 13:49 |
| oiaohm | So what was the point. | Aug 11 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | point is, it's more reliable | Aug 11 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | in my experience | Aug 11 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | I always seem to crash Linux by doing something evil | Aug 11 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | FreeBSD does not make me change my evil ways | Aug 11 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Aug 11 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Linux secuirty side is more flexable than FreeBSD's. | Aug 11 13:50 |
| oiaohm | So yes in non carefull hands it can bite bad. | Aug 11 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | Wine on FreeBSD does not seem to crash and burn X quite like Linux seems to let it | Aug 11 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | I don't know the particular voodoo behind that | Aug 11 13:51 |
| oiaohm | I have seen Wine kill FreeBSD. | Aug 11 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | wine should never crash X | Aug 11 13:51 |
| DaemonFC | the sound system doesn't glitch on FreeBSD | Aug 11 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Same kind of way kernel driver going nuts. | Aug 11 13:51 |
| DaemonFC | it does on Linux | Aug 11 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | thats an X bug if it does | Aug 11 13:51 |
| DaemonFC | Pulseaudio makes it even worse | Aug 11 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: DO NOT USE PULSEAUDIO | Aug 11 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | IT IS HORRID SHIT | Aug 11 13:51 |
| Diablo-D3 | IT WILL EAT YOUR SOUL, YOUR FIRST BORN, YOUR DOG, AND YOUR MOTHER OUT | Aug 11 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | so I have noticed | Aug 11 13:52 |
| Ng | pulse is awesome | Aug 11 13:52 |
| oiaohm | Difference here DaemonFC FreeBSD gets latter drivers from Nvidia and the like. | Aug 11 13:52 |
| Ng | it is the future. deal with it. | Aug 11 13:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ng: if thats the future, Ill go use windows | Aug 11 13:52 |
| oiaohm | Ie only the stable tested drivers on Linux users get made for FreeBSD users. | Aug 11 13:52 |
| Ng | Diablo-D3: bye then :) | Aug 11 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | it seems like every time someone updates their Linux distro it's like they pretend it's safe to go back in the (Pulseaudio) water | Aug 11 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | and then come to find out the new version screws you over even harder | Aug 11 13:52 |
| oiaohm | So X11 difference is nothing more than a driver quality differen DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:52 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ng: I replaced pulseaudio with a single .asoundrc | Aug 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | If you were talking about solarias you would have had some grounds DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Solarias X11 stack is different to both Linux and freebsd. | Aug 11 13:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no | Aug 11 13:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | solaris uses xorg now | Aug 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Ie Linux and Freebsd basically use the same X11 stack. | Aug 11 13:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | at least, some solarii do | Aug 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | solarias has a difference at driver level. | Aug 11 13:53 |
| oiaohm | It already has kernel mode switching. | Aug 11 13:53 |
| Diablo-D3 | they're porting DRI to solaris too | Aug 11 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | it seems like no distro is hapopy til they've complicated the hell out of things that need to be simple and fast, and simplified the things that needed to be complicated and have lots of options | Aug 11 13:54 |
| oiaohm | Driver level under DRI Diablo-D3 | Aug 11 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | it's quite scary | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no, I mean, they're doing it | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is really neat | Aug 11 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | you hardly ever see people on FreeBSD using GNOME | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Ng | you hardly ever see people on freebsd at all ;) | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | fbsd on the desktop is really rare | Aug 11 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | more people use Macs than Linux | Aug 11 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | go use that | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wouldnt mind dragonflybsd on the desktop though | Aug 11 13:54 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: not true | Aug 11 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | or more people use Windows than Macs | Aug 11 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | so that has to be correct, obviously | Aug 11 13:55 |
| oiaohm | Depends what country DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | worldwide, there are now as many linux desktop users as osx users | Aug 11 13:55 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Aug 11 14:00:41 2009 | ||
| oiaohm | Driver level under DRI Diablo-D3 | Aug 11 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | it's quite scary | Aug 11 13:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: no, I mean, they're doing it | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | which is really neat | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | you hardly ever see people on FreeBSD using GNOME | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Ng | you hardly ever see people on freebsd at all ;) | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | fbsd on the desktop is really rare | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | more people use Macs than Linux | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | go use that | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | I wouldnt mind dragonflybsd on the desktop though | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: not true | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | or more people use Windows than Macs | Aug 11 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | so that has to be correct, obviously | Aug 11 13:36 |
| oiaohm | Depends what country DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | worldwide, there are now as many linux desktop users as osx users | Aug 11 13:37 |
| *BNc has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Aug 11 13:37 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Aug 11 13:37 | |
| Diablo-D3 | about 25% or so of the desktop market is not windows | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | There are countries where Linux usage is more dominate than windows and mac. | Aug 11 13:37 |
| DaemonFC | if you want to base your argument for Linux on how many people use it, well, it's a fallacious argument | Aug 11 13:37 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dont get the game market | Aug 11 13:37 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: you started off claiming a difference now you trying to use market percentage to avoid mistake. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | its damned easy to write a portable game that works on all three platforms | Aug 11 13:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | why would anyone give up 25% of their profits | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | because it's more like 88% Windows | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact the complete distributions idea is wrong. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | 1% Linux | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | rest is Macs | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Again wrong DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: please stop doing drugs | Aug 11 13:38 |
| Diablo-D3 | its not healthy. | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Correct for the USA DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | 1% Linux is the most generous estimate given | Aug 11 13:38 |
| oiaohm | Not correct for the rest of world DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | that I've ever seen | Aug 11 13:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | and if I took my website stats, about 50% of the public uses linux, the other half are windows | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Where are you DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | and some stray osx users in there | Aug 11 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | so we'll round to a whole percent | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | USA | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | So exactly the percent you should be seeing. | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Sorry USA is not the world. | Aug 11 13:39 |
| Diablo-D3 | oh, and while we're on my website's statistics.... over 80% use firefox :D | Aug 11 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems | Aug 11 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is 1.15% according to the helpful Wikipedia Pie Chart | Aug 11 13:39 |
| oiaohm | How do you measure how much Linux is out there. | Aug 11 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | but does it quote where the stats came from or what year? | Aug 11 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | oiaohm: Im pretty sure google could tell you | Aug 11 13:40 |
| Diablo-D3 | but they wont | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Operating_system_usage_share.svg | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | July 2009 | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | Windows 2000 alone has a bigger sliver than Linux | Aug 11 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | XP is Pac Man | Aug 11 13:41 |
| Diablo-D3 | DaemonFC: can I have some of those drugs? | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | and Vista is in there too | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | OS X has about 1/3rd the share of Vista | Aug 11 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | and Linux has about 1/6th of OS X | Aug 11 13:41 |
| oiaohm | How many sites exist that only work if you use a Windows usage agent string DaemonFC | Aug 11 13:42 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot. | Aug 11 13:42 |
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| DaemonFC | well, people always quote Wikipedia until it betrays them | Aug 11 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | I suppose | Aug 11 13:42 |
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Aug 11 14:00 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Aug 11 14:00 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 17:24:05 2009 | Aug 11 14:00 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Aug 11 14:00 | |
| DaemonFC | well, people always quote Wikipedia until it betrays them | Aug 11 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | I suppose | Aug 11 14:01 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Aug 11 14:01 | |
| oiaohm | All measurement systems are measuring something a browser could be lieing about DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | web browsers do not always provide accurate information to web servers. | Aug 11 14:01 |
| oiaohm | No one is likely to lie on a windows machine that they are using Linux. | Aug 11 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | that's item 1 in their list of things that could affect results | Aug 11 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | I doubt it's going to massively alter things | Aug 11 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Yet Linux and Mac users are likely to be lieing to being running windows to access sites. | Aug 11 14:02 |
| oiaohm | So you would say a min of that percent for Linux. | Aug 11 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | and that's a site preference in any decent browser | Aug 11 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | not a global one | Aug 11 14:02 |
| oiaohm | And a max of that percent for windows. | Aug 11 14:02 |
| oiaohm | user changing user agent will forget to change it back from time to time. | Aug 11 14:02 |
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| DaemonFC | that's why in Opera and Konqueror, it's a site pref | Aug 11 14:03 |
| DaemonFC | not a global pref | Aug 11 14:03 |
| oiaohm | I have run for 4 months with my browser saying I was IE 6 on XP on iceweasel running on Linux until a site did not work right. | Aug 11 14:03 |
| oiaohm | and I become aware of the issue. | Aug 11 14:03 |
| oiaohm | I would not be alone in that error DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | and to answer our question, no company would jsut leave 25% of their revenue potential on the table | Aug 11 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | and none of them do ;) | Aug 11 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | the computer software market is a fickle thing, and even growing a couple percent in sales year over year is a good thing | Aug 11 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | it's just like retail | Aug 11 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Mac OS and Windows you can get good numbers on there percentages from sales and projected lifespans of hardware. | Aug 11 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Due to Linux and BSD not having a good OEM stream it basically not countable. | Aug 11 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | I think it is | Aug 11 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | denial is what happens when the facts don't support you | Aug 11 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Truth lies and statistics. | Aug 11 14:06 |
| oiaohm | All statistics show some truth and some lies. | Aug 11 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Key questions is how dependable is the information collection. | Aug 11 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | I find it odd that you can't even give something away | Aug 11 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | I think it has to do with perceived value at the price point of free | Aug 11 14:07 |
| oiaohm | You can only give away items that work. | Aug 11 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Or are marketed well. | Aug 11 14:08 |
| DaemonFC | people have the idea that if you're giving it away it must not be worth anything | Aug 11 14:08 |
| oiaohm | That is wrong. | Aug 11 14:08 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox has some strong word of mouth | Aug 11 14:08 |
| DaemonFC | Opera doesn't | Aug 11 14:08 |
| oiaohm | You try giving away some money on a street looking suspect. | Aug 11 14:09 |
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| oiaohm | Most people will not take it. | Aug 11 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Yet put a crappy stick in a fancy bag and thousands of people will take them without questioning. | Aug 11 14:09 |
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| oiaohm | The power of marketing. | Aug 11 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Every wonder why video card companies spend so much money printing there boxes and make them so large DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:10 |
| oiaohm | They could ship more cards out if there boxs were smaller. | Aug 11 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Firefox has had good marketing. | Aug 11 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Firefox secret is that is logo creature is cute. | Aug 11 14:13 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the Attacks on Sites Like Twitter Can Help Promote Free Software http://ping.fm/khkLA | Aug 11 14:15 | |
| DaemonFC | heh, they have the XBOX 360 version of Red Alert 3 marked down to $9.99 on Newegg | Aug 11 14:16 |
| DaemonFC | I played the demo | Aug 11 14:16 |
| DaemonFC | the controller scheme is impossible without a mouse and keyboard | Aug 11 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Don't worry MS can always upgread the Xbox 360 so no game you aquired works. | Aug 11 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | no they can't | Aug 11 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | the games are on DVD | Aug 11 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | how do you disable those? | Aug 11 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Change the xbox 360 crypt key. | Aug 11 14:18 |
| oiaohm | So making the DVD disks worthless. | Aug 11 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Since everything is encrypted. | Aug 11 14:18 |
| DaemonFC | they wouldn't | Aug 11 14:18 |
| oiaohm | The means to do so exists in the device. | Aug 11 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Note I said they always can DaemonFC. Not that they would. | Aug 11 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | doing so would be some wickedly bad PR | Aug 11 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | and probably hurt sales | Aug 11 14:20 |
| DaemonFC | so why would they? | Aug 11 14:20 |
| oiaohm | You are really in the same boat as people who aquired MS DRM protected music that has been left out in the cold. | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | no I'm not | Aug 11 14:21 |
| oiaohm | You are. | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | I've never had an XBOX game magically stop working | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | nor any other console games | Aug 11 14:21 |
| oiaohm | If the decided to end the XBox line they could do anything. | Aug 11 14:21 |
| oiaohm | they | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | wrong | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | people would just write emulation software | Aug 11 14:21 |
| DaemonFC | been done for every other console eventually | Aug 11 14:22 |
| oiaohm | You are living in dream land there DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:24 |
| DaemonFC | no, history has proven that emulation software will eventually be out | Aug 11 14:25 |
| DaemonFC | just like for every other console, including the original XBOX | Aug 11 14:25 |
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| oiaohm | original xbox did not use encryption DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:25 |
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| oiaohm | It just used signing. | Aug 11 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Same with all the other devices you are refering to DaemonFC | Aug 11 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Even if you could make a xbox360 emulator it would have the same illegal issues in the USA as playing particular forms of protected media on Linux has. | Aug 11 14:27 |
| oiaohm | So you are living in dream land if you think you are going to be able to get your hands on a xbox360 emulator. | Aug 11 14:28 |
| DaemonFC | so? | Aug 11 14:29 |
| DaemonFC | I don't care if it's unlicensed | Aug 11 14:29 |
| DaemonFC | I own the games | Aug 11 14:29 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Aug 11 14:29 |
| oiaohm | You are licenced to use the games on a xbox 360 you don't as such own them. | Aug 11 14:30 |
| oiaohm | People have mixed up the major difference between be licenced to use and ownership. | Aug 11 14:31 |
| Balrog | hello everyone | Aug 11 14:37 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: changing the xbox 360 crypt key would be extremely bad PR | Aug 11 14:38 |
| Balrog | nintendo hasn't done it | Aug 11 14:38 |
| Balrog | they've used different keys in new markets (Korea, for example) | Aug 11 14:38 |
| Balrog | but they won't break compatibility | Aug 11 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Nintendo does not use full program encryption. So break compatibility equals emulators and clones. | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: what do you mean 'full program encryption' ? | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | the wii has full disc encryption | Aug 11 14:40 |
| Balrog | (and signing, but that's another story) | Aug 11 14:40 |
| oiaohm | wii does not require all disks encrypted. | Aug 11 14:43 |
| oiaohm | Operational requirement is just signed. | Aug 11 14:43 |
| oiaohm | xbox 360 operational requirement is encrypted. | Aug 11 14:44 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: afaik it requires disks to be encrypted | Aug 11 14:44 |
| Balrog | but they use symmetric key encryption | Aug 11 14:44 |
| Balrog | so once you have the key, you can decrypt OR encrypt | Aug 11 14:44 |
| Balrog | the gamecube didn't do this encryption; it just had special non-standard discs | Aug 11 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Look at some of the wii demo disks. Non encrypted option exists in wii just in case at some point someone was wanting to release a mxied disk of demos. Note its a different signing key. | Aug 11 14:46 |
| oiaohm | nitendo does think ahead. | Aug 11 14:47 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: you mean the demo systems they give out to reviewers? | Aug 11 14:47 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML http://ping.fm/IwpnW | Aug 11 14:47 | |
| Balrog | those simply use a different set of keys | Aug 11 14:47 |
| oiaohm | It something that was designed in rarely used. Mag demos. | Aug 11 14:47 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: nintendo does think ahead?!? just read http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/ | Aug 11 14:48 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: link? | Aug 11 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Wii development kit. | Aug 11 14:48 |
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| Balrog | have you worked with it directly? Because from what I know the real devkit is a big black box | Aug 11 14:49 |
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| Balrog | the green and red faceplate Wiis are just special consoles with a different drive and keys for the green one, and a hard drive for the red one | Aug 11 14:49 |
| oiaohm | It includes a list of different forms of programs you can order when you want them signed or encypted for sale. | Aug 11 14:49 |
| oiaohm | yes there is a non encrypted. | Aug 11 14:50 |
| Balrog | but all have to be signed...? | Aug 11 14:50 |
| oiaohm | All have to be signed to run. | Aug 11 14:51 |
| oiaohm | That is the one thing set in stone. | Aug 11 14:51 |
| Balrog | and nintendo has full, exclusive control of the regular signing keys? | Aug 11 14:51 |
| Balrog | (not the developer signing keys) | Aug 11 14:52 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Aug 11 14:52 |
| Balrog | yeah. So we need exploits to get through | Aug 11 14:52 |
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| Balrog | the gamecube didn't do this encryption; it just had special non-standard discs | Aug 11 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Look at some of the wii demo disks. Non encrypted option exists in wii just in case at some point someone was wanting to release a mxied disk of demos. Note its a different signing key. | Aug 11 14:28 |
| oiaohm | nitendo does think ahead. | Aug 11 14:28 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: you mean the demo systems they give out to reviewers? | Aug 11 14:28 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML http://ping.fm/IwpnW | Aug 11 14:28 | |
| Balrog | those simply use a different set of keys | Aug 11 14:28 |
| oiaohm | It something that was designed in rarely used. Mag demos. | Aug 11 14:29 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: nintendo does think ahead?!? just read http://hackmii.com/2009/02/why-the-wii-will-never-get-any-better/ | Aug 11 14:29 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: link? | Aug 11 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Wii development kit. | Aug 11 14:30 |
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| Balrog | have you worked with it directly? Because from what I know the real devkit is a big black box | Aug 11 14:30 |
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| Balrog | the green and red faceplate Wiis are just special consoles with a different drive and keys for the green one, and a hard drive for the red one | Aug 11 14:31 |
| oiaohm | It includes a list of different forms of programs you can order when you want them signed or encypted for sale. | Aug 11 14:31 |
| oiaohm | yes there is a non encrypted. | Aug 11 14:31 |
| Balrog | but all have to be signed...? | Aug 11 14:32 |
| oiaohm | All have to be signed to run. | Aug 11 14:33 |
| oiaohm | That is the one thing set in stone. | Aug 11 14:33 |
| Balrog | and nintendo has full, exclusive control of the regular signing keys? | Aug 11 14:33 |
| Balrog | (not the developer signing keys) | Aug 11 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Aug 11 14:33 |
| Balrog | yeah. So we need exploits to get through | Aug 11 14:34 |
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| Balrog | like the really stupid one that relied on strncmp() to compare hashes | Aug 11 14:34 |
| oiaohm | The encryption is not heavy to start off with. It was more to stop ripping of music and the like allowing developers to licence music and the like cheaper. | Aug 11 14:34 |
| oiaohm | in the wii | Aug 11 14:35 |
| Balrog | and probably to slow down reverse engineering | Aug 11 14:35 |
| Balrog | which it did do | Aug 11 14:35 |
| oiaohm | xbox360 were even stand alone binaries have to be encrypted. | Aug 11 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Then everything is kept encrypted in ram. | Aug 11 14:36 |
| Balrog | wow. | Aug 11 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Lot of hardware is not doing game releated things in a xbox 360. | Aug 11 14:36 |
| Balrog | nintendo left keys floating around in RAM which allowed the keys to be captured | Aug 11 14:36 |
| Balrog | but the signing key is still unknown :( | Aug 11 14:36 |
| oiaohm | nintendo encrytion does enough to make it illegal to rip stuff you should not. | Aug 11 14:37 |
| Balrog | in some countries | Aug 11 14:37 |
| oiaohm | But not enough to prevent future emulation. | Aug 11 14:37 |
| Balrog | it does not prevent piracy one bit | Aug 11 14:38 |
| Balrog | (of games) | Aug 11 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Of course nintendo knew that was impossiable. | Aug 11 14:38 |
| oiaohm | Person can always just raw copy disks. So piracy would always exist no matter what they did. | Aug 11 14:38 |
| Balrog | ps3 piracy isn't taking place, though ... afaik | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: raw copy isn't enough | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | a drivechip is also necessary | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | the discs are non-standard | Aug 11 14:39 |
| oiaohm | Depends what you are raw coping with. | Aug 11 14:39 |
| Balrog | explain | Aug 11 14:39 |
| oiaohm | If you are raw coping with a disk mil you can produce any type of disk you want. | Aug 11 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Most you could hope to do is prevent back yarders from doing it. | Aug 11 14:40 |
| Balrog | well true | Aug 11 14:40 |
| Balrog | look at what Datel does (they have a press that can make GC/Wii discs) | Aug 11 14:40 |
| Balrog | for their Action Replay and Freeloader devices | Aug 11 14:40 |
| Balrog | disc mils are hard to get and expensive though | Aug 11 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Just like saying no one would fake CPU's because cpu production gear is expensive. | Aug 11 14:41 |
| Barlog, please quit feeding the trolls. I clutters things up. | Aug 11 14:41 | |
| *it | Aug 11 14:42 | |
| Balrog | twitter: feeding the trolls??? | Aug 11 14:42 |
| oiaohm | organised crime causes a huge batches of fake intel at times. | Aug 11 14:42 |
| You seem to be arguing with people. asking them to explain, asking for links, etc. | Aug 11 14:42 | |
| Balrog | I want to learn a bit | Aug 11 14:43 |
| Balrog | I've been watching this area for a while now | Aug 11 14:43 |
| Balrog | (meaning video game protection and the like) | Aug 11 14:43 |
| you should watch what people like oiaohm tell you. | Aug 11 14:43 | |
| it's better to be ignorant than spun | Aug 11 14:44 | |
| Balrog | twitter: don't think I'm believing everything he says | Aug 11 14:44 |
| Balrog | I know raw copying discs with a press is impractical to say the least | Aug 11 14:44 |
| If you don't believe what he says, why bother asking? | Aug 11 14:45 | |
| oiaohm | It is impractical while home users can do it so cheap. | Aug 11 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Its the problem with making it too impossable for home users sooner or latter you risk making it profitable for organsised crime to do it. | Aug 11 14:46 |
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| Balrog | oiaohm: the other thing is that Bluray discs are still expensive | Aug 11 14:50 |
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Aug 11 15:05 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Aug 11 15:05 | |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 17:24:05 2009 | Aug 11 15:05 | |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Aug 11 15:05 | |
| *#boycottnovell :[freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup | Aug 11 15:05 | |
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| Balrog | oiaohm: the other thing is that Bluray discs are still expensive | Aug 11 15:08 |
| oiaohm | The blance at moment is a deterent to anyone doing it. | Aug 11 15:09 |
| oiaohm | Crime or home user. | Aug 11 15:09 |
| Balrog | yes. | Aug 11 15:09 |
| Balrog | what do you think about the situation with the nintendo DS? | Aug 11 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Push that blance too far one way or the other and it will become profitable. | Aug 11 15:10 |
| oiaohm | So the art to controling piracy is keeping the blance just in the right spot. | Aug 11 15:10 |
| oiaohm | nintendo DS cartigrage protection was not a new method. | Aug 11 15:12 |
| oiaohm | There are some odd cartigrages for the gameboys that also use a releated methods. | Aug 11 15:12 |
| oiaohm | Reason for the old gameboys was to allow large game data than the gameboy could access directly. | Aug 11 15:13 |
| Balrog | meaning stuff like bankswitching? | Aug 11 15:13 |
| oiaohm | Its releated to bankswitching. | Aug 11 15:14 |
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| oiaohm | So you cannot see all banks in the cartigage in the nintendo DS unless you send the right codes. | Aug 11 15:15 |
| Balrog | ahh. | Aug 11 15:15 |
| oiaohm | Ie each code opens up another block. | Aug 11 15:15 |
| oiaohm | So making them extreamly hard to dump. | Aug 11 15:15 |
| Balrog | but aren't those usually circumvented quickly? | Aug 11 15:15 |
| Balrog | oiaohm: that's interesting ... dumping is typically extremely easy | Aug 11 15:15 |
| Balrog | there's a tool that dumps a cartridge to an ftp server over wifi | Aug 11 15:16 |
| oiaohm | Now you are trying to run program and its expecting the same bank switching system. | Aug 11 15:16 |
| oiaohm | Its kinda going to break. | Aug 11 15:16 |
| oiaohm | So now its become an extreamly hard game to copy because recoding is required. | Aug 11 15:17 |
| Balrog | but it has not stopped one bit | Aug 11 15:17 |
| Balrog | or even slowed | Aug 11 15:17 |
| Balrog | how do the flashcart manufacturers do that? | Aug 11 15:18 |
| oiaohm | I was refering to the kind that are not copyable yet. | Aug 11 15:19 |
| Balrog | are there any? | Aug 11 15:19 |
| oiaohm | There are a few. | Aug 11 15:19 |
| oiaohm | Bank switching is one of the few copy protection systems that is a true pain in but to work around. | Aug 11 15:20 |
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| neighborlee | hi peeps, anything new ;0-0 | Aug 11 17:05 |
| _Hicham_ | hi neighborlee | Aug 11 17:08 |
| neighborlee | :) | Aug 11 17:08 |
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| wallclimber | This morning's BN article about Windows computers and botnets had two comments, one from twitter and one from Charles Oliver | Aug 11 17:17 |
| wallclimber | Charles Oliver contends that, rather than botnets being a reason to ban infected Windows computers, Apache should be looked at instead. | Aug 11 17:17 |
| MinceR | lol | Aug 11 17:17 |
| MinceR | well, just wait until m$ completes its acquisition of apache. | Aug 11 17:18 |
| wallclimber | there were no further comments in response. I'm sure what he was doing was misdirecting the issue, but in what way is he wrong | Aug 11 17:18 |
| wallclimber | ? | Aug 11 17:18 |
| balzac | well, open source people were pretty enthralled with being revolutionistas | Aug 11 17:18 |
| balzac | but then they thought about all that Microsoft cash | Aug 11 17:19 |
| balzac | we'll see what happens to the parts of the LAMP stack that Sun didn't get | Aug 11 17:19 |
| balzac | the A & the P | Aug 11 17:19 |
| balzac | The Linus kernel has been getting pretty friendly with M$ as well | Aug 11 17:20 |
| MinceR | yes, m$ has bought their way into that too | Aug 11 17:20 |
| balzac | PHP went from GPL to an open source license, making PHP more attractive to M$ | Aug 11 17:20 |
| MinceR | i guess it's time to start really working on hurd | Aug 11 17:20 |
| balzac | might as well, just for the advanced functionality | Aug 11 17:21 |
| MinceR | that too | Aug 11 17:21 |
| MinceR | but also for what happens when they kill linux (the kernel) | Aug 11 17:21 |
| balzac | i don't see that happening | Aug 11 17:21 |
| wallclimber | MinceR, is killing the Linux kernal really possible? | Aug 11 17:22 |
| MinceR | i'm not sure | Aug 11 17:22 |
| balzac | they're keeping it effectively marginalized on consumer systems | Aug 11 17:22 |
| MinceR | but i'd rather not risk it | Aug 11 17:22 |
| balzac | by making sure it's a bumpy ride for rich media | Aug 11 17:22 |
| wallclimber | patents? | Aug 11 17:22 |
| MinceR | we've seen them successfully push a patch that had no engineering reason to be there | Aug 11 17:22 |
| balzac | patents are stupid | Aug 11 17:22 |
| balzac | software patents can be ignored | Aug 11 17:22 |
| MinceR | and their puppet, gregkh, even had the audacity to rave about how great the patch is | Aug 11 17:23 |
| balzac | I'll be happy to follow Gandhi's example of civil disobedience on resisting software patents for fun and profit | Aug 11 17:23 |
| MinceR | balzac: only once the courts and the USPTO get their shit together and start doing their job properly | Aug 11 17:23 |
| balzac | pure drivel | Aug 11 17:23 |
| wallclimber | after patents, what's the next biggest threat? | Aug 11 17:23 |
| balzac | money used to divide and coopt | Aug 11 17:24 |
| MinceR | well, i wonder if m$, after becoming one of the copyright holders, will become able to sue people on some GPL-related technicality from now on | Aug 11 17:24 |
| MinceR | and what balzac said | Aug 11 17:24 |
| MinceR | also, influence over key people | Aug 11 17:24 |
| MinceR | corrupting them via money | Aug 11 17:24 |
| MinceR | and other means | Aug 11 17:24 |
| balzac | money used to buy favorable coverage | Aug 11 17:24 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Holy crap. If GM can pull this one off ... http://is.gd/2c2MQ | Aug 11 17:24 | |
| balzac | and to indefinitely deny the moment of triumph | Aug 11 17:25 |
| balzac | so we can't say "i told you so" from the decks of our own yachts | Aug 11 17:25 |
| balzac | no, they can't stop change | Aug 11 17:25 |
| MinceR | victory on our side doesn't automatically mean possessing yachts. | Aug 11 17:26 |
| balzac | you can see the desperation when MS advocates characterize free software activists and enthusiasts as some new kind of terrorist | Aug 11 17:26 |
| balzac | that's pure desperation | Aug 11 17:26 |
| balzac | MinceR: for me it does | Aug 11 17:26 |
| balzac | I'm positioning myself for a yacht | Aug 11 17:26 |
| MinceR | i'm positioning myself for a lot more | Aug 11 17:27 |
| wallclimber | the thing is, Microsoft can only keep buying people for so long, they may not run totally out of money, but it will eventually drain the coffers beyond good sense, if they continue | Aug 11 17:27 |
| MinceR | but that's a different goal from saving the world from m$ | Aug 11 17:27 |
| balzac | part of that strategy was bonking you for being too harsh on Ballmer | Aug 11 17:27 |
| MinceR | it's impossible to be too harsh on ballmer | Aug 11 17:27 |
| balzac | see, I don't attack the personalities, I attack their actions | Aug 11 17:27 |
| MinceR | i attack both | Aug 11 17:27 |
| MinceR | they're closely related | Aug 11 17:27 |
| wallclimber | absolutely impossible! | Aug 11 17:27 |
| wallclimber | (to be too harsh on Ballmer and his antics) | Aug 11 17:28 |
| balzac | ballmer is actually funny to me | Aug 11 17:29 |
| balzac | the screeching and hopping around | Aug 11 17:29 |
| MinceR | he'd be funnier if he had no power | Aug 11 17:29 |
| wallclimber | he gives me the creeps | Aug 11 17:29 |
| MinceR | as he is now, he keeps doing lots of damage | Aug 11 17:29 |
| balzac | well, i don't hate him or bill gates | Aug 11 17:29 |
| MinceR | perhaps he should be caged and shown to people for amusement | Aug 11 17:29 |
| balzac | i intend to get revenue from their monopoly | Aug 11 17:29 |
| balzac | for myself | Aug 11 17:30 |
| wallclimber | if MS keeps losing money, won't they kick Ballmer out? Soon, i hope... | Aug 11 17:30 |
| balzac | and not by compromising my principles either | Aug 11 17:30 |
| MinceR | wallclimber: and they'll pull out the next monster from the closet | Aug 11 17:30 |
| wallclimber | Balzac, I don't hate him either, but i do think he's revolting | Aug 11 17:31 |
| wallclimber | MinceR, how many MS monsters can there be left? Haven't they all left for government appointments by now (just kidding) | Aug 11 17:32 |
| balzac | he acts like a jerk | Aug 11 17:32 |
| wallclimber | sort of kidding, actually | Aug 11 17:32 |
| MinceR | most human beings are easily turned into one | Aug 11 17:32 |
| wallclimber | i don't think it's an act | Aug 11 17:32 |
| wallclimber | he does come off as being more than a little desperate lately... | Aug 11 17:33 |
| wallclimber | ack...phone's ringing...time to get back to work. Thanks for the chat! | Aug 11 17:37 |
| wallclimber | :o) | Aug 11 17:37 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] REVIEW: PCLinuxOS 2009.2 - By Chips on Openbytes! http://tinyurl.com/ozntjc #linux #foss #distro | Aug 11 18:21 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Dannii Minogue quits Botox in favour of 240 volts http://notnews.today.com/?p=592 | Aug 11 18:22 | |
| schestowitz | Hey, _goblin | Aug 11 18:26 |
| _goblin | hi | Aug 11 18:26 |
| schestowitz | Does Openbytes do guest posts now? | Aug 11 18:32 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bill Gates — Like Microsoft’s Chief Financial Officer — Dumps MSFT http://ping.fm/Z5uu8 | Aug 11 18:33 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Hostility Towards XML Expands to Hostility Towards HTML http://ping.fm/IwpnW | Aug 11 18:34 |
| schestowitz | Should we debunk the GPL FUD from IDG? It is possible to show how they daemonise RMS re: attempts to contact him. It's better not to draw attention to it, IMHO, but we have time to flag that either way | Aug 11 18:35 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] bill gates assures you that he is COMPLETELY CONFIDENT about MSFT's future and just liked the number "7" http://is.gd/2c76X | Aug 11 18:41 | |
| neighborlee | woah | Aug 11 18:59 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Updating Rockbox on my iPod | Aug 11 19:11 | |
| *amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04 | Aug 11 19:12 | |
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| _goblin | schestowitz: I am hoping Chips will contribute and help (joint ownership) | Aug 11 19:50 |
| _goblin | is Twitter down again? | Aug 11 19:51 |
| *_goblin is now known as _Goblin | Aug 11 19:51 | |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: seems dodgy | Aug 11 19:52 |
| schestowitz | The API is on and off | Aug 11 19:52 |
| schestowitz | Thank Windows zombies | Aug 11 19:52 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] FEATURE: A look at URL shrinking http://s7y.us/135v | Aug 11 19:56 | |
| _Goblin | running the latest build of Chromium .201 | Aug 11 19:56 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Just recieved #Chromium build 3.0.201.0 - Been with the project for many builds. Great work! #linux #foss | Aug 11 19:58 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Did Microsoft Also Poison Yahoo’s Free Software? http://ping.fm/sJstx | Aug 11 20:02 | |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Britannica Loses, SpinVox Shamed, FFII Updated, and More http://ping.fm/hZPRq | Aug 11 20:14 | |
| tessier__ | schestowitz: Something going on with the server? I see a lot more processes than normal, many of which are defunct | Aug 11 20:15 |
| tessier__ | Hmm...seems the number of processes has been building up for quite a while. Not sure why there are so many sh and ifconfig and whoami processes running but it is odd. | Aug 11 20:19 |
| Balrog | hello everyone | Aug 11 20:19 |
| Balrog | schestowitz and _Goblin: twitter API has been acting up for a while | Aug 11 20:20 |
| tessier__ | Ah. Mystery solved. It's puppetd. | Aug 11 20:21 |
| tessier__ | It's cool when monitoring works. This box normally has around 100 processes running on it. Today it hit 400 and nagios paged me. I looked at the munin graph and saw the process count has been climbing for weeks. | Aug 11 20:23 |
| Balrog | facebook is not in the best shape either :( | Aug 11 20:33 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @mashable BORN AGAIN: Tr.im Comes Back From the Dead http://bit.ly/2ty2NU | Aug 11 20:40 | |
| trmanco | tr.im id back | Aug 11 20:40 |
| schestowitz | tessier: yes, I noticed it some days ago | Aug 11 20:40 |
| schestowitz | Brought it up here, but no ideas as to what caused it | Aug 11 20:41 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Migrations Without Approval http://ping.fm/upY7x | Aug 11 20:41 | |
| schestowitz | tessier: oh, I see... puppetd | Aug 11 20:41 |
| schestowitz | I'm catching up :-) | Aug 11 20:41 |
| schestowitz | tessier: let me know when you want your ads up. Also, if you give me your paypal account I'll pass all the Ad Bard revenue to that (only about $20/month) | Aug 11 20:42 |
| tessier__ | schestowitz: Ok, will do. | Aug 11 20:46 |
| thenixedreport | I'm learning how GnuCash works. | Aug 11 20:50 |
| schestowitz | VMware vs Red Hat? http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10306690-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad | Aug 11 20:51 |
| schestowitz | thenixedreport: it's not proprietary, therefore the GUI must suck suck suck!! /sarcasm | Aug 11 20:51 |
| thenixedreport | lol | Aug 11 20:51 |
| thenixedreport | I'm not familiar with personal finance software, so either way.... | Aug 11 20:52 |
| thenixedreport | I need to read the documentation that comes with it. | Aug 11 20:52 |
| thenixedreport | I'm also about to get a netbook in the mail (in a day or two). | Aug 11 20:52 |
| thenixedreport | So.... | Aug 11 20:52 |
| thenixedreport | I'll be trying to install CentOS onto it as well. | Aug 11 20:52 |
| thenixedreport | And writing up documentation on how to do it. | Aug 11 20:52 |
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| _Goblin | lets see if John Oberto rises to my challenge in respect of his Google article... | Aug 11 20:54 |
| _Goblin | comment is awaiting moderation - no surprise there. | Aug 11 20:54 |
| schestowitz | SYSSTAT Howto: A Deployment and Configuration Guide for Linux Servers < http://linux.com/learn/tutorials/33766-sysstat-howto-a-deployment-and-configuration-guide-for-linux-servers > | Aug 11 20:54 |
| schestowitz | thenixedreport: debunk Caitlyn | Aug 11 20:54 |
| schestowitz | Bring the dignity to CentOS | Aug 11 20:54 |
| schestowitz | _Goblin: is Obeto attacking Google now? | Aug 11 20:55 |
| schestowitz | The Microsoft TE (like Jon Wong) love doing this | Aug 11 20:55 |
| _Goblin | not really...a weak baseless article on why you shouldnt choose Google, Ive called him out on it to be specific | Aug 11 20:55 |
| _Goblin | lets see if he will elaborate on his generalizations | Aug 11 20:56 |
| _Goblin | my guess is he wont. | Aug 11 20:56 |
| _Goblin | but looking at some of his other "work" he does have a bit of a potty mouth. | Aug 11 20:56 |
| _Goblin | so hopefully he will take the insulting route..... | Aug 11 20:57 |
| schestowitz | Responses to GPL FUD: | Aug 11 20:58 |
| schestowitz | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-08-11-014-35-OP-BZ-LL | Aug 11 20:58 |
| schestowitz | "It seems like RMS did a better job of summing up the author's point than 4 pages of writing ever could. " http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2009-08-11-014-35-OP-BZ-LL-0002 | Aug 11 20:58 |
| schestowitz | "Editor's note: InfoWorld tried to interview Richard Stallman, who runs the Free Software Foundation that created and manages the GPL, on this issue, but he demanded control of what we published, so we declined." | Aug 11 20:59 |
| schestowitz | zoobab01: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/08/11/patents-roundup-britannica-loses/ | Aug 11 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | /. goes with a silly headline: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/08/10/1442221/Chrome-OS-Designed-To-Start-Microsoft-Death-Spiral | Aug 11 21:10 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: I've just made a long post with testimonies | Aug 11 21:11 |
| schestowitz | I look forward to Comes :-) | Aug 11 21:11 |
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| wallclimber | i'm reading...you've added a lot since i checked earlier this morning | Aug 11 21:12 |
| wallclimber | i apologize for not getting the most recent Comes pdf finished. life's (and work) been a bit overwhelming this month | Aug 11 21:13 |
| schestowitz | When choice is bad: The OpenOffice ribbon < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13556_3-10306521-61.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 > | Aug 11 21:14 |
| schestowitz | wallclimber: been a hectic dau | Aug 11 21:14 |
| schestowitz | *day | Aug 11 21:14 |
| schestowitz | BTW, how's cday? | Aug 11 21:14 |
| wallclimber | yes, it has been here too... | Aug 11 21:14 |
| schestowitz | I caught up at 6 | Aug 11 21:15 |
| wallclimber | she's doing great, they are building a house in the mountains | Aug 11 21:15 |
| schestowitz | Nice. | Aug 11 21:15 |
| schestowitz | Tower of Hanoi. | Aug 11 21:15 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Devo ter batido hoje recorde de pessoas online hoje usando o IM da Google | Aug 11 21:16 | |
| schestowitz | Far away fromt he fumes and the malice of modern 'civil'isaton :-p | Aug 11 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Sony admits to failing Nvidia chips 13 months late < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528907/sony-admits-failing-nvidia-chips-months-late > Wonderful. Mine still survives. | Aug 11 21:17 |
| wallclimber | yes. i am hopeful they will have better connectivity soon. i need her to start work again | Aug 11 21:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | schestowitz: you know whats really bad? supercooling them dont help | Aug 11 21:17 |
| Diablo-D3 | and its a thermal issue | Aug 11 21:17 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, it was never implied that there was a solution | Aug 11 21:18 |
| schestowitz | Here's Twitter spewing bad packets again. | Aug 11 21:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | its double hitting laptops though | Aug 11 21:18 |
| schestowitz | Let's revive it.. | Aug 11 21:18 |
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| schestowitz | Apple panics about broken Macbooks < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528898/apple-panics-broken-macbooks > | Aug 11 21:20 |
| schestowitz | Gateway is coming back (the company0 | Aug 11 21:21 |
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| MinceR | WD > Seagate | Aug 11 21:23 |
| thenixedreport | Doesn't Acer own Gateway? | Aug 11 21:23 |
| schestowitz | Maybe they bought em? | Aug 11 21:39 |
| schestowitz | I can't remember for sure. Who bought Hewlett Packard? | Aug 11 21:39 |
| schestowitz | Oops | Aug 11 21:39 |
| schestowitz | I mean.. | Aug 11 21:39 |
| schestowitz | Packard Bell | Aug 11 21:40 |
| schestowitz | That was round 2007 | Aug 11 21:40 |
| schestowitz | Yay. http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/lenovo_china_sale/ The junk company known as Lenovo is thrown away. it was quite Linux hostile recently, so..... | Aug 11 21:48 |
| MinceR | i hope IBM gets a clue and buys it back | Aug 11 21:50 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/virtensys_c_round/ Manchester switch vendor gets $16m funding | Aug 11 21:52 |
| schestowitz | IBM is huge... but huge and stupid... like a dinosaur | Aug 11 21:52 |
| schestowitz | They tried to sell people a proprietary version of OOo | Aug 11 21:53 |
| schestowitz | Some bloat called Lotus Symphony. I hope they fail with it cause it's just a bad OOo ripoff | Aug 11 21:53 |
| MinceR | they tried to sell that? | Aug 11 21:53 |
| schestowitz | To universities that they mass-mailed | Aug 11 21:54 |
| schestowitz | Some people in IBM were mailing about it | Aug 11 21:54 |
| schestowitz | "Buy from us.. we have software patents to protect you.. and a big blue shiny logo" | Aug 11 21:55 |
| MinceR | ugh | Aug 11 21:55 |
| schestowitz | The nearby recruiter seems to be out of business ("to Let")..... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/11/it_recruitment/ | Aug 11 21:56 |
| schestowitz | A lot of shops here replace their front window with planks of wood | Aug 11 21:56 |
| schestowitz | I guess it means it's not a good thing... :-S | Aug 11 21:57 |
| schestowitz | I might need to apply for a postdoc | Aug 11 21:57 |
| schestowitz | I hate metaaccounts from Microsoft and Google is doing it tooo >:| http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/08/11/googles-latest-facebook-page-is-for-adsense | Aug 11 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | There goes Twitter cr*pping out again | Aug 11 21:59 |
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| thenixedreport | http://istwitterdown.com/ | Aug 11 22:00 |
| schestowitz | by ryan king | Aug 11 22:01 |
| schestowitz | I know him..... | Aug 11 22:01 |
| amarsh04 | hi schestowitz, finally have adsl stable... was overhead cabling between house and street | Aug 11 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Nice! | Aug 11 22:09 |
| schestowitz | Must be countryside | Aug 11 22:09 |
| amarsh04 | patience with both the isp and the telco paid off... switched all hardware around and still heard crackles in the line so the telco kept at it | Aug 11 22:10 |
| amarsh04 | some suburban cabling is overhead (insulated wires), some is underground | Aug 11 22:11 |
| Balrog | amarsh04: threatening them that you'll cut off service usually causes action :) | Aug 11 22:11 |
| schestowitz | Depends who | Aug 11 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | The clerk won't mind (or support person) | Aug 11 22:11 |
| schestowitz | The management might. it has goals to meet | Aug 11 22:12 |
| amarsh04 | no need... if you keep being nice and trying what they suggest, then it's harder for them to give up | Aug 11 22:12 |
| schestowitz | How I know Twitter jumped the shark: http://ping.fm/vWpG2 | Aug 11 22:14 |
| amarsh04 | interestingly, the problem became worse when not using the telephone on the same line... the extra current draw of the telephone in use seemed to reduce the noise on the line | Aug 11 22:14 |
| schestowitz | Another one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts_and_culture/8193917.stm | Aug 11 22:14 |
| amarsh04 | schestowitz, your recent posting reminds me of adelaide.edu.au becoming more ms-dominated | Aug 11 22:17 |
| amarsh04 | good point about peoplesoft also | Aug 11 22:19 |
| schestowitz | amarsh04: yes, US/US/AU is like that | Aug 11 22:19 |
| schestowitz | Europe goes the other way, AFAIK | Aug 11 22:19 |
| schestowitz | And the post describes the tactics | Aug 11 22:19 |
| schestowitz | I thought it might be worth proposing for Linux Today, but had second thoughts cause it's more about Microsoft than about FL/OSS. Also, it took a long time getting these testimonies together, for future reference. | Aug 11 22:20 |
| amarsh04 | the searchable text of documents about ms attacking gnu/linux are worth forwarding to linuxtoday.com / groklaw.net | Aug 11 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | amarsh04: Groklaw has slown down | Aug 11 22:33 |
| schestowitz | I reckon PJ does other things now. | Aug 11 22:33 |
| amarsh04 | plus she hasn't been well the last couple of days | Aug 11 22:34 |
| schestowitz | server issues | Aug 11 22:42 |
| schestowitz | IBM will need to send engineer to repair the robot named "PJ" ;-) | Aug 11 22:43 |
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| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How I know Twitter jumped the shark: http://ping.fm/vWpG2 | Aug 11 22:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @hfiguiere: ♺ @chrisblizzard: The Free Software Foundation endorses Dailymotion's new open video site: http://bit.ly/ORodf | Aug 11 22:50 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The legal system is FINE! http://ping.fm/n7GZd (Oprah can relax, $1 trillion lawsuit is dismissed) | Aug 11 22:51 | |
| schestowitz | How's that work.. ? So Oprah maybe had 1 million viewers that day. And the chap wants compensation of $1,000,000 for each viewer? | Aug 11 22:54 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft wary of Linux threat < http://www.techcentral.ie/article.aspx?id=13827 > | Aug 11 22:58 |
| schestowitz | "Where was that Linux distro CD again? It is sounding a hell of a lot easier all of a sudden." http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1528810/cracking-windows-upgrade-code | Aug 11 23:00 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Look at Disinformation Week. They even promote the anti-Linux headline using a PRESS RELEASE. http://ping.fm/xTzjX | Aug 11 23:05 | |
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| schestowitz | " Posted by Alex Brown " http://pr-canada.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=115076&Itemid=34 He does Linux servers now? :-p | Aug 11 23:12 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Its time I started getting my categories on the blog in some sort of order...they have been disorganized for far too long. | Aug 11 23:17 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] just voted "Pokerface" on "Best Song : Lady GaGa" vote too ➔ http://bit.ly/azDPX | Aug 11 23:22 | |
| schestowitz | Eric Lai is advertising his beloved Microsoft again (at Linux' expense even): http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9136192/Windows_7_How_low_can_you_go_?taxonomyId=64 | Aug 11 23:22 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fYJbPTZilE&feature=fvw | Aug 11 23:23 |
| trmanco | schestowitz, you like that? | Aug 11 23:24 |
| schestowitz | Music's good. I don't like the singer. | Aug 11 23:24 |
| schestowitz | it's a ripoff, too | Aug 11 23:24 |
| schestowitz | See if you get the reference. | Aug 11 23:24 |
| schestowitz | Another ripoff galore is Pussycat Dolls | Aug 11 23:25 |
| schestowitz | But they don't attribute | Aug 11 23:25 |
| schestowitz | Michael Jackson hires people to write his music | Aug 11 23:26 |
| schestowitz | A lot of them are sort of phony musicians, many of whom can't write notes | Aug 11 23:26 |
| schestowitz | There are the types like Alicia Keys that are the exception in the sense that they can be called musicins | Aug 11 23:27 |
| trmanco | but that doesn't stop them from being popular | Aug 11 23:28 |
| schestowitz | Verizon Business to Help Federal Agencies Manage Security Risk, Insider Threats Company Adds New Capabilities to Its Already Robust Portfolio of Security Solutions < http://sev.prnewswire.com/high-tech-security/20090810/NY5890710082009-1.html > | Aug 11 23:28 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: of course not, it's teamwork | Aug 11 23:28 |
| schestowitz | Mogul hires songwriter, grabs some gal/guy from a modeling agency, toss it together in some studio and then spends $1 marketing hoping for RoI | Aug 11 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | They make music like some factories make soap. They mix ingredients, then create artificial wants, and ...(4) Profit! | Aug 11 23:29 |
| trmanco | yeah | Aug 11 23:31 |
| trmanco | I get your point | Aug 11 23:31 |
| schestowitz | hehe. http://press-releases.techwhack.com/39662-navicat-5 "PremiumSoft" Sounds like some brand of toilet paper | Aug 11 23:32 |
| schestowitz | trmanco: artists often hate them. Some are more vocal than others (Radiohead for once) | Aug 11 23:33 |
| schestowitz | Panasonic, NEC unveil 9 Linux phones < http://ca.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idCATRE57A0JY20090811 > | Aug 11 23:33 |
| schestowitz | Lots of good Linux news today | Aug 11 23:33 |
| schestowitz | http://efytimes.com/efytimes/fullnewsxml.asp?edid=36461 | Aug 11 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | What how Linus is used in Microsoft apologism: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Apple-vs-Microsoft-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly-118095.shtml | Aug 11 23:41 |
| schestowitz | Takeways: Microsoft is good, Linus hater critics of Microsoft, Apple is evil. Signed, Microsoft fan. | Aug 11 23:42 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] If your computer gets a virus you MUST reinstall the operating system. No such thing as software which can "clean it up". | Aug 11 23:54 | |
| schestowitz | Sensationalist: http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3834076/Ubuntu-Debian-Partner-to-Employ-Communist-Era-Model.htm | Aug 11 23:55 |
| schestowitz | "The reason Soviet manufacturers delivered such rubbish was because they collaborated instead of competing. What may lead to Microsoft's demise is that it could end up being too small to compete with the seemingly endless supply of developer talent willing to contribute to Linux for free." | Aug 11 23:55 |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #bing is a failure, or MSFT wouldn't be pulling stunts like http://is.gd/2cr1t | Aug 11 23:56 | |
| -BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ubuntu Netbook Remix gets an interface overhaul http://ping.fm/9pWxG Look ma! No brown/orange. | Aug 11 23:58 | |
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