IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 18th, 2009

_Hicham_MinceR : what the two bits are for ? Windows Vista and Windows 7 ?Aug 18 00:00
MinceRit's probably a bit more complicated than thatAug 18 00:00
MinceRhm, i see rumors that the next nokia internet tablet, n900, will have cellular voice capability (in other words, it will be a phone)Aug 18 00:02
DaemonFCmy bank finally upgraded to Windows XP :PAug 18 00:04
DaemonFClast time I was in there they were using Windows 2000Aug 18 00:04
MinceR 18 00:04
DaemonFCprobably figured that Windows 2000 was getting a little too stuffy but wanted no part of Vista I'd imagineAug 18 00:04
DaemonFCthey're a huge company though, so they probably got XP as part of their Software Assurance subscriptionAug 18 00:05
DaemonFCI think it's funny that everything in this branch is new, they just built the damned thing while taking TARP bailout money with the other hand, and all their new systems run XPAug 18 00:06
_Hicham_great, now try to penetrate into their systemAug 18 00:06
_Hicham_you may steal a large amount of moneyAug 18 00:06
DaemonFCWindows 2000 was probably saferAug 18 00:06
_Hicham_and escape to mexicoAug 18 00:07
Will_But can they even get 2000 now?Aug 18 00:07
_Hicham_since you re living in nowhereAug 18 00:07
Will_At least they aren't running Vista or Vista 7Aug 18 00:07
DaemonFCyeah, Windows 2000 is still available through Software AssuranceAug 18 00:07
DaemonFCit's only supported til July of next year thoughAug 18 00:07
DaemonFCXP keeps going til 2014Aug 18 00:07
Will_sounds like XP was the best Windows choice then.Aug 18 00:08
DaemonFCyeah, Vista Business is supported til 2017, but those systems would never handle VistaAug 18 00:08
DaemonFCXP was their only option without buying new machinesAug 18 00:08
Will_Another thing I love about open source:  good software is never made extinct just to serve a business interest.Aug 18 00:08
DaemonFCI couldn't get a look at what precise version of XP was running on the teller terminalAug 18 00:09
MinceRat least not by its developersAug 18 00:09
DaemonFCthere were a lot of themAug 18 00:09
MinceR(see also: software patents)Aug 18 00:09
Will_Very true MinceR.  Good catch.Aug 18 00:09
DaemonFCthey don't do Linux, their big database servers are all running SolarisAug 18 00:09
schestowitz 18 00:10
DaemonFC 18 00:10
Will_DaemonFC well that's their loss.Aug 18 00:10
DaemonFCmix of Solaris 8-10, their less important stuff is on Windows 2003Aug 18 00:11
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DaemonFCWindows 2003 is trusted to host the company blog, lolAug 18 00:11
Will_I've never messed with Solaris, but it's UNIX based so it can't be very bad.Aug 18 00:12
DaemonFChmmmwellsconnect is running Linux but looks like they farmed that out to some consultantAug 18 00:12
DaemonFCSlowlarisAug 18 00:12
DaemonFCthe only good thing in the entire OS is their file system, and FreeBSD supprots that now (ZFS)Aug 18 00:13
Will_Does it kinda make you wonder that a lot of banks run Windows (sometimes even on the backend) when the NYSE is running Linux?Aug 18 00:15
DaemonFCMicrosoft used to host their stuff on FreeBSD, wouldn't surprise me if they still do and rig it to report "Windows Server + IIS"Aug 18 00:15
DaemonFCI couldn't imagine Windows Server running anything that bigAug 18 00:15
MinceR(the point of the n900 rumor is, of course, is that it runs maemo)Aug 18 00:15
DaemonFCWill_: Not really, Windows is still a client OS, it's useless as a server unless the laod is fairly light and you don't need nearly 100% uptimeAug 18 00:16
DaemonFCyou're going to have to reboot the server at least once a month, that's if it doesn't crashAug 18 00:16
DaemonFCthen there's maintainence downtime for defragging and cleaning up the hard diskAug 18 00:16
DaemonFCif you combine all that into a monthly chore, you'll only be down about 3-5 hours once per month, better have a backup server readyAug 18 00:17
schestowitz 18 00:17
Will_Well, that's kinda my point.  I would make more sense for banks to not run Windows.Aug 18 00:17
DaemonFCecommerce backend systems almost never trust Windows for that reason alone, you have too much downtime even if everything goes wellAug 18 00:18
Will_Hospitals too, for that matter, but we've gone through that point many times here.Aug 18 00:18
DaemonFCthey don't use Windows for most stuff, just client systems (like tellers and kiosks)Aug 18 00:18
DaemonFCthey usually use something like SteadyState to dispose of the account when you log out and not permit any system changesAug 18 00:19
DaemonFCit makes it hard for persistent malware infections, you log out and it's goneAug 18 00:19
Will_Seems to me that Linux would be the perfect OS for any public kiosk though.Aug 18 00:19
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DaemonFCWill_: You can use Linux as a public kiosk, but there's less people trained to maintain it and Microsoft practically gives Windows away for libraries and big businessesAug 18 00:20
DaemonFCvolume licensing is the only thing keeping them competitive with Red Hat or othersAug 18 00:21
schestowitzLMAO. CNN fail. 18 00:23
DaemonFCMicrosoft makes sure to have a very comprehensive training program made available to community colleges and such, the Red Hat equivalent is the only thing that you're really going to be offered on the Linux side, but it's also pretty thorough which is probably why they get more sales than other Linux companiesAug 18 00:24
DaemonFCprice doesn't even matter if nobody knows how to use your software, so Red Hat is probably at an advantage over less thorough or non-existent training from other companiesAug 18 00:25
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DaemonFC,2933,540029,00.html?test=latestnewsAug 18 00:27
DaemonFCExplorers Discover Giant Rat-Eating Plant, Name it After Famed ScientistAug 18 00:27
DaemonFCniceAug 18 00:27
DaemonFC"Feed me, Seymour!!!"Aug 18 00:27
DaemonFCuhhhm, I'm usually not for pillaging the environmentAug 18 00:28
DaemonFCbut I think this calls for some aerial herbicide dropsAug 18 00:28
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_Hicham_wb oiaohmAug 18 00:59
oiaohmJust passing through _Hicham_Aug 18 01:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Ralph Nader "Now Make Me Do It": Obama's sellout of real #healthcare reform #singlepayer #hr676 #publicoptionAug 18 01:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Off to bed with the preview of the latest @uupc to sleep to.. :)Aug 18 01:28
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twitterlol, SJVN ->  if Microsoft hadn't insisted on shoving its own proprietary Open XML standard down users' throats and had whole-heartily supported the truly open ODF (Open Document Format), Word would have an option for its users that would have avoided the i4i patent mess. Oh well, too late now!Aug 18 02:54
twitterI love the i4i suit because of all the M$ evil it exposes.  M$ is left with two messy options.  They can pay toll to the troll or they can ditch OOXML and DOCX, which no one is really using anyway.  This would be great for GNU/Linux users because the old binary formats are pretty much conquered.Aug 18 02:55
twitterM$ thought they could screw over i4i, which they stole when GWB was shifting through 9/11 stuff.  Now it and many other sins dependent on OOXML have all come back to haunt them.Aug 18 02:57
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twitterWithout their phony "Open" document standard, they are out of the running in most government purchases too.Aug 18 02:58
twitterIt's just beautiful how the company who loved to threaten others with patents has been so totally foiled with a real case of abusive corporate espionage and patent violation.Aug 18 03:00
neighborlee yes I was so pleased to hear this ;)Aug 18 03:25
neighborleeso sad ...Aug 18 03:25
neighborleeafter reading sam's article on gnome3 and mono,, im increasingly glad I made the jump to 'just use kde'Aug 18 03:26
neighborleeits so liberating..and to think gnome was hailed as the oss alternative...o_0<oh the irony>Aug 18 03:27
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thenixedreportHey everyone.Aug 18 04:12
thenixedreportHow goes it?Aug 18 04:12
Diablo-D3twitter: I dont even get why microsoft hasnt been sued on the name aloneAug 18 04:13
Diablo-D3its not openAug 18 04:13
Diablo-D3thats clearly false adveritsingAug 18 04:13
thenixedreport:)Aug 18 04:14
thenixedreportGot CentOS working on my Aspire One netbook.Aug 18 04:14
thenixedreport:DAug 18 04:14
Diablo-D3thenixedreport: thats... not really a big thingAug 18 04:15
Diablo-D3all those atom netbooks based on that design run linux fineAug 18 04:15
Diablo-D3its also arguably the only thing worth running on them since they suck in the cpu power departmentAug 18 04:16
thenixedreportYes, but CentOS required some tweaking.Aug 18 04:16
Diablo-D3I mean, they max out at 2gb of memory and you need atleast 2 to run xp reliablyAug 18 04:16
thenixedreport 18 04:17
Diablo-D3otoh 2 is fucking awesome for, say, ubuntu's default gnome destkopAug 18 04:17
thenixedreportFor wireless, I chose to compile the madwifi drivers myself.Aug 18 04:17
Diablo-D3wowAug 18 04:17
Diablo-D3I havent compiled madwifi in yeeaaaarrrsAug 18 04:17
thenixedreportCentOS 5.3.Aug 18 04:18
thenixedreportIt's based on RHEL.Aug 18 04:19
thenixedreportSo naturally, it wasn't going to have the latest apps and drivers.Aug 18 04:19
thenixedreport:)Aug 18 04:19
Diablo-D3yeah, its kinda sad its behind debianAug 18 04:19
thenixedreportNot really.Aug 18 04:26
thenixedreportConsidering what it's meant for.Aug 18 04:26
thenixedreportRed Hat Enterprise was designed for stability.Aug 18 04:27
thenixedreportThey're far from bleeding edge.Aug 18 04:27
thenixedreportCentOS is a simple rebuild with branding removed.Aug 18 04:27
Diablo-D3stability doesnt mean what most people think it doesAug 18 04:27
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DaemonXP,2933,539900,00.htmlAug 18 05:22
DaemonXP"In addition to refashioning common Microsoft Corp. software into a cyber-weapon, hackers collaborated on popular U.S.-based social-networking sites, including Twitter and Facebook Inc., to coordinate attacks on Georgian sites, the U.S. Cyber Consequences Unit found."Aug 18 05:23
DaemonXPThe Russians were exploiting Windows vulnerabilities in their attack on GeorgiaAug 18 05:23
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DaemonXP"As you can see, a massive and disturbing number of organizations rely on insecure and indefensible Microsoft software to handle critical and sensitive information about you and millions of other customers. this essentially becomes an "all-you-can-eat" buffet for attackers, and so many organizations depend on Microsoft software that nobody who uses a credit card is really safe."Aug 18 05:54
DaemonXPfrom a blog posting I'm writingAug 18 05:54
DaemonXP"This essentially becomes an "all-you-can-eat" buffet for attackers, some based in countries rife with fraud where the government doesn't care what happens to Americans (like Russia), and so many organizations depend on Microsoft software that nobody who uses a credit card is really safe."Aug 18 05:55
DaemonXPI'll go with thatAug 18 05:55
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DaemonFChmmmAug 18 06:01
DaemonFCsomeone is being cuteAug 18 06:01
thenixedreportWho me?Aug 18 06:04
thenixedreportlolAug 18 06:04
thenixedreport:)Aug 18 06:05
thenixedreport 18 06:05
DaemonFCthenixedreport: You'll like the post I'm about to makeAug 18 06:08
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DaemonFC"Sure these three men in who used Microsoft vulnerabilities to help commit their crimes will probably be sent to prison (assuming the US has jurisdiction to arrest or try them), 7/11 Corporation or some banks may be sued, but as long as there are no serious ramifications in this for Microsoft, they'll continue churning out software where "quantity is job #1"."Aug 18 06:09
thenixedreportOh look!Aug 18 06:13
thenixedreportI'm installing Pidgin!Aug 18 06:13
thenixedreportWoo!Aug 18 06:13
thenixedreportCentOS 5.3.Aug 18 06:14
DaemonFC"If Microsoft put half as much work into securing your private and confidential information as they do circle jerking their pals over at the RIAA/MPAA, then maybe there wouldn't be so much identity theft."Aug 18 06:15
thenixedreportlolAug 18 06:16
thenixedreportAnd pidgin is working.Aug 18 06:16
thenixedreportWoo!Aug 18 06:16
thenixedreportNow granted, the icon isn't painted in the menu.Aug 18 06:17
thenixedreportBut it does run.Aug 18 06:17
thenixedreportNever mind.Aug 18 06:20
thenixedreportNow it's showing.Aug 18 06:20
DaemonFCand doneAug 18 06:21
thenixedreportThat was a bit delayed.Aug 18 06:22
DaemonFCadding some flairAug 18 06:22
DaemonFC:PAug 18 06:22
DaemonFCfixing a few typosAug 18 06:23
DaemonFCit's this typing that makes me wish voice dictation actually workedAug 18 06:23
DaemonFCit wouldn't take me half as long to dictate thisAug 18 06:24
DaemonFCthenixedreport: 18 06:24
DaemonFC"Redbox DVD vending machines. (Running XP Embedded, I saw the logo as the kiosk crashed before I could select my DVD)"Aug 18 06:28
DaemonFCheheAug 18 06:28
thenixedreportYou may want to correct a part of your blog post.Aug 18 06:32
thenixedreport"Malicious hackers."Aug 18 06:32
DaemonFCoh?Aug 18 06:32
thenixedreportIf the person does identity theft, they aren't a true hacker.Aug 18 06:32
thenixedreportHackers are against that sort of thing.Aug 18 06:32
thenixedreportThey desire technical understanding, not destroying peoples' lives.Aug 18 06:34
DaemonFCthenixedreport: Making an updated Windows XP x64 (Windows 2003) disc the other day, there was this unbelievable number of patches I had to integrateAug 18 06:36
DaemonFCmy guess is that Microsoft didn't do an SP3 last year because then they would have to have XP x64 in mainstream support til the middle of 2010 and in extended support til 2015Aug 18 06:37
DaemonFCso it gets left with enough free-floating hotfixes to almost be a third service pack, without the convenience of being put into a rollup bundleAug 18 06:37
DaemonFCthat kind of angered meAug 18 06:38
DaemonFC 18 06:40
DaemonFCthere's a list of everything in the post-SP2 integration pack there, plus there's 15 more hotfixes from last week on top of thatAug 18 06:40
DaemonFCjust keep scrolling down and you'll see what I mean, it's unreasonableAug 18 06:41
fewaDaemonFC, Faux News is a no fact zoneAug 18 06:41
DaemonFCI don't really prefer fox newsAug 18 06:42
DaemonFCsome things they don't really have any reason to lie aboutAug 18 06:42
DaemonFCthose rat-eating pitcher plantsAug 18 06:42
DaemonFC:DAug 18 06:42
DaemonFCI mean, yeah, they left out the part where Ann Coulter is the leader of the reat-eating pitcher plants, but it was still fascinatingAug 18 06:43
DaemonFC*ratAug 18 06:43
fewa 18 06:43
fewa 18 06:44
DaemonFCI don't know what schestowitz's beef is with Net ApplicationsAug 18 06:45
DaemonFCthey're not portraying Microsoft in a positive light. you'd think if they were spinning stats for Microsoft, they may put Vista higher than 25% share after 3 yearsAug 18 06:45
fewaDaemonFC, why do you beg the question?Aug 18 06:45
fewa*why must you?Aug 18 06:46
DaemonFCBecause, if I was paying a consultant to cook stats for me, my latest product would have at least half the market after 3 yearsAug 18 06:47
fewaDaemonFC, maybe that is because people would see right through that, presenting the image that people you use your products is the most important thing to present?Aug 18 06:48
DaemonFC25% after 3 years is not good enough to be fabricated, XP had over 40% by the third yearAug 18 06:48
fewaDid you read what I said?Aug 18 06:49
DaemonFCso they pay the consultant to only make them look slightly less bad than they're actually doing?Aug 18 06:49
fewaYou still havn't addressed what I saidAug 18 06:50
DaemonFCI don't think it's worth paying a consultant to fan the flames of the people that hate your productAug 18 06:50
fewastill havn't addressedAug 18 06:51
DaemonFCI think if Microsoft was really behind all the statistics from every company, and organization, including the World Wide Web ConsortiumAug 18 06:51
DaemonFCthat they could do better than thisAug 18 06:51
fewaDaemonFC, go troll somewhere elseAug 18 06:52
DaemonFCYou probably see Microsoft in your soupAug 18 06:52
DaemonFCit's a fine line between valid criticism and ludicrous paranoiaAug 18 06:53
fewaAnd what have I said? or are you just shoving words into my mouth?Aug 18 06:53
DaemonFCthey're not omniscient, if they were, they wouldn't have to pay PR firms to eavesdrop on web chatter about themAug 18 06:55
fewa...shoving words into my mouthAug 18 06:55
DaemonFCNo, I don't think that people would see right through the statistics unless one was an outlier from the othersAug 18 06:56
DaemonFCbut the fact is that none of them are outliers, so Microsoft is either paying all of them off and it's a conspiracy, or they're not getting a lot in return for their moneyAug 18 06:56
DaemonFCor the third option, none of them are particularly biasedAug 18 06:57
DaemonFCMicrosoft is a pretty big company, they have an awful lot of managers and employees, and not all of them want to work there for life I'm sureAug 18 06:58
DaemonFCso are you going to boycott every company that picks up anyone who's ever worked for Microsoft?Aug 18 06:59
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DaemonFCit raises an eyebrow, but it's not enough to say ytou can't trust anything that company doesAug 18 06:59
DaemonFCevery company tries to turn the menial chores you do for them day in and day out into a religionAug 18 07:02
thenixedreportNot everyone who works for that company is evil.Aug 18 07:02
DaemonFCit's how management theory teaches managers to actAug 18 07:02
thenixedreportIt's mainly the executives in suits you need to worry about.Aug 18 07:03
DaemonFCI worked at Walmart for over 4 years and even tried to get a union to start signing peopleAug 18 07:03
DaemonFCwhile keeping my head down of courseAug 18 07:03
ThistleWebnobody is evilAug 18 07:04
ThistleWebtheir actions can be evil thoughAug 18 07:04
DaemonFCI was talking to the SEIU through email, they decided not to try and organize that store thougAug 18 07:04
DaemonFCso I dropped itAug 18 07:04
ThistleWebwell, a few can be I guessAug 18 07:04
ThistleWebbut most are notAug 18 07:05
ThistleWebjust motivated to get what they want without any conscience on how it affects othersAug 18 07:05
DaemonFCmost of them are just trying to be paid that week so they can feed their family, the decisions go way above the middle managementAug 18 07:08
DaemonFCif someone on Microsoft's board of directors ends up someplace else, I'd be real suspiciousAug 18 07:08
thenixedreportPrecisely.Aug 18 07:08
thenixedreportIt's the board of directors and the Steve Ballmers that are the problem.Aug 18 07:08
thenixedreportI talked to an individual who once worked for Microsoft.Aug 18 07:09
thenixedreportThose who believe in the company won't hear of criticism of it.Aug 18 07:09
DaemonFCthat's how management turns the workplace into religionAug 18 07:09
DaemonFCthey remind you every day how lucky you are to work for themAug 18 07:10
DaemonFCteam meetings and all that lovely crapAug 18 07:10
DaemonFCincentive bonusesAug 18 07:10
ThistleWebplenty have that mentalityAug 18 07:11
DaemonFCsometimes an incentive bonus is there but they set it so high that nobody can routinely get itAug 18 07:11
DaemonFCand if you do, they fire you cause they don't want to pay anyone that much moneyAug 18 07:11
ThistleWebwhere their wages (or job) depends on them defending the company against all criticism, legit or notAug 18 07:11
DaemonFCa lot of that comes from their own conscienceAug 18 07:12
DaemonFCthey don't want to believe they are part of a corrupt organization that hurts peopleAug 18 07:12
DaemonFCpeople define the world around them on terms they can deal withAug 18 07:13
DaemonFCnobody wants to be working for a company that abuses child labor in third world countries, so they'll tell you it's better than if those kids assembling Kathy Lee Gifford handbags were child prostitutesAug 18 07:15
DaemonFCthen suddenly Walmart is the good guysAug 18 07:15
thenixedreportPrecisely.Aug 18 07:17
ThistleWebplenty of peeps have been there so long that they still think it's a lil upstart companyAug 18 07:17
ThistleWebso they think any dirty tricks to win are fineAug 18 07:18
ThistleWebthat it's the exception rather than the ruleAug 18 07:18
DaemonFCMicrosoft needs a better skunkworks divisionAug 18 07:18
ThistleWebthat others also do the dirty tircksAug 18 07:18
DaemonFCthey try to start every new sector out with layers of managementAug 18 07:18
ThistleWebwhen they're stopped by regulators from doing them , that they're bing victimisedAug 18 07:18
ThistleWebbeing*Aug 18 07:18
ThistleWebthey see life from the insideAug 18 07:19
ThistleWebwhere all their knowledge is centered around themAug 18 07:19
DaemonFCGoogle lets every employee spend a certain amount of time at work doing whatever they want to do each weekAug 18 07:19
ThistleWebrather than what's really going onAug 18 07:19
DaemonFCand some neat ideas have come from thatAug 18 07:19
ThistleWebplenty of MS peeps no doubt believe that a lot of the MS apps are unique because they've never seen any alternatives to them, and the use of the MS apps are just "how things happen"Aug 18 07:20
DaemonFCfrom what I've seen of the Windows development hierarchy, there's too many teams, not enough communication, and too much management to get a good productAug 18 07:20
DaemonFCthat's what's killing themAug 18 07:21
thenixedreportThen there are those who know what's happening on the inside, but can't do anything.Aug 18 07:21
thenixedreportBecause they learned a long time ago to keep quiet.Aug 18 07:21
ThistleWebnot to mention that using non-MS apps at MS where MS have their own apps would be a no-noAug 18 07:21
thenixedreportThere's a dark side to the company.Aug 18 07:21
ThistleWebyou dont use openoffice at MSAug 18 07:21
thenixedreportWatch the movie Antitrust.Aug 18 07:21
thenixedreportYou'll get a good idea of what I'm referring to.Aug 18 07:22
ThistleWebexactly, plenty of peeps are just employees who could be working for anyone, and have no loyalty to their employerAug 18 07:22
ThistleWebthats a decent movieAug 18 07:22
ThistleWebemployee loyalty is not just an MS thingAug 18 07:22
ThistleWebit happens to all large companiesAug 18 07:23
ThistleWebmost workers are just worker bees in the hiveAug 18 07:23
ThistleWebthe ones you need to watch (and judge) are the leaders, who make the decisions, and steer the shipAug 18 07:24
ThistleWeblike BallmerAug 18 07:24
ThistleWebI heard Bradley Khun pointing out that Ramji can play nice all he wants with OSS, it's nice but pointless when peeps like Ballmer still do what they doAug 18 07:25
DaemonFCMicrosoft should give up right now and re-release XPAug 18 07:25
DaemonFCit's what people seem to be demandingAug 18 07:25
ThistleWebwhat Ballmer and the board do is what mattersAug 18 07:25
DaemonFChave you ever seen any other company put so much development into things their customers don't want and survive?Aug 18 07:26
DaemonFCif your customers want your last product continued, you'd better damned well listen and not go off chasing butterflies :PAug 18 07:26
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DaemonFCMicrosoft seems to be off in some fantasy world where they have the same customers Apple doesAug 18 07:28
DaemonFCnot the unwashed masses that jsut want something that worksAug 18 07:28
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ThistleWeblike any large company, they have so many different departments all doing different things, all contradicting each otherAug 18 07:30
schestowitzRamji is a toolAug 18 07:31
schestowitzHe knows itAug 18 07:31
schestowitzThe people who run the company just hate FOSSAug 18 07:31
schestowitzRamji is PR clownAug 18 07:31
ThistleWebRamji seems to be the official flamebaitAug 18 07:31
ThistleWebhe's there to take flackAug 18 07:31
schestowitzMore luke punch bagAug 18 07:31
ThistleWebdraw fire away from what really mattersAug 18 07:32
schestowitzHe's like the women PR Rep whom you can't insultAug 18 07:32
ThistleWebthat tooAug 18 07:32
schestowitzGot a problem with the bully, speak to SamAug 18 07:32
schestowitzOldest trick from the bookAug 18 07:32
schestowitzHe succeeds Hilf and TaylorAug 18 07:32
schestowitzANd he doesn't understand FOSSAug 18 07:32
ThistleWebI don't doubt he's a nice bloke, but what he says is irrelevant, it's what the MS board do that countsAug 18 07:32
schestowitzHe spreads lies about the GPLAug 18 07:33
schestowitzHe came from SaaSAug 18 07:33
schestowitzNobody else seems to want this jobAug 18 07:33
DaemonFCthey want to make open source software work better on Windows than it can on LinuxAug 18 07:33
DaemonFCyou've seen some of that already if you use FirefoxAug 18 07:33
DaemonFCDebian fixed a lot of what was wrong with the Linux Firefox build, but it still works better on WindowsAug 18 07:34
DaemonFCespecially if you have the official Mozilla build on LinuxAug 18 07:34
MinceR(nsfw) 18 07:34
DaemonFCThat's what all the "Come over and we'll teach you all about Vista" thing is aboutAug 18 07:35
thenixedreportI see.Aug 18 07:42
thenixedreportSo there will be a need for a new web browser.Aug 18 07:42
DaemonFConly about 500 of them, and none that work rightAug 18 07:43
DaemonFC:PAug 18 07:43
DaemonFCthat's why Firefox is still the defacto standard on LinuxAug 18 07:43
thenixedreportIf only there was a way to convince Opera to open their code.Aug 18 07:43
fewaDaemonFC, yeah Konquorer is nothingAug 18 07:43
fewaDaemonFC, its not like is what created web kit and the most promising HTML engine out thereAug 18 07:44
MinceRopera works already, even if it's proprietaryAug 18 07:44
MinceRand chromium has been under development for a while alreadyAug 18 07:44
DaemonFCyeah, Opera works alrightAug 18 07:44
MinceRalso, no browsers work rightAug 18 07:45
DaemonFCChrome will at some pointAug 18 07:45
fewaChrome==Webkit==KonquorerAug 18 07:45
MinceRnot exactly, fewaAug 18 07:45
fewa==KDE=GNU/LinuxAug 18 07:45
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MinceRthe big thing about chromium is the process-based model, afaik :)Aug 18 07:45
fewaDaemonFC is just spreading shitAug 18 07:46
MinceR(and khtml)Aug 18 07:46
DaemonFCnope, it's already starting to fall apartAug 18 07:46
DaemonFCKubuntu is shipping somthing weird now, Konqueror is still there thoughAug 18 07:46
DaemonFCArora.....they're still trying to figure out how to build an ad blocking extension for itAug 18 07:49
MinceRmore likely too few people are working on itAug 18 07:49
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzAug 18 07:50
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DaemonFCIt's kind of pointless, Konqueror already does everything they're trying to figure out how to make Arora doAug 18 07:50
thenixedreportBut they refuse to use webkit.Aug 18 07:52
DaemonFChmmm, other than that, it looks like Kubuntu Karmic Alpha 4 is starting to look like soupAug 18 07:52
DaemonFC 18 07:52
DaemonFCall the straggler apps are finally being ported to QT 4Aug 18 07:53
DaemonFCit's probably feasible to use it without QT 3Aug 18 07:53
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fewaFirefox on GNU/Linux is more stable IMHO because the OS is more stableAug 18 07:57
fewaOn OSX they had trouble IIRC because of undocumented graphics APIsAug 18 07:58
fewaAnd I see Firefox as amazing in its cross-platform portabilityAug 18 07:59
fewayou can literally copy a profile folder and then take it from Windows to Linux to OSX, and everything works exactly the same.Aug 18 07:59
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fewaFor this reason using Firefox is one of the best ways to be ready to move to GNU/LinuxAug 18 08:00
DaemonFCbut what about on GNU/GNU?Aug 18 08:03
DaemonFC:PAug 18 08:03
MinceRthere's no GNU/GNUAug 18 08:03
MinceRthere's GNU/Linux and GNU/HurdAug 18 08:03
fewaGNU/SolarisAug 18 08:03
fewaGNU/kfreeBSDAug 18 08:04
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MinceRprobably some microkernel-based linux versions tooAug 18 08:04
MinceRL4Linux and othersAug 18 08:04
DaemonFCthat was a joke actuallyAug 18 08:05
MinceRit was a weak joke, thenAug 18 08:05
*DaemonFC doesn't take the GNU spammers seriouslyAug 18 08:06
*MinceR doesn't take the trolls seriouslyAug 18 08:06
fewa 18 08:09
DaemonFCGNU doesn't make a distribution of LinuxAug 18 08:09
fewa^^ RE: spammersAug 18 08:10
DaemonFCthat's cleverAug 18 08:10
fewamore complete: 18 08:12
DaemonFC"There are lots of people on this bus; I don't hear a clamor of support that GNU is more essential than many of the other components; can't take a wheel away, and end up with a functional vehicle, or an engine, or the seats. I recommend you be happy we have a bus."Aug 18 08:12
DaemonFC 18 08:12
fewaLook, you've played the exact same slant before:Aug 18 08:19
fewa#Aug 18 08:19
fewa#Aug 18 08:19
fewa2009 May 30 13:57:21  PDT<DaemonFC>     if anything, VLC works better on WindowsAug 18 08:19
fewa#Aug 18 08:19
fewa2009 May 30 13:58:24  PDT<DaemonFC>     even Canonical asked for a crippled copy of the Windows version of VLC so they could distribute it on their old "Open CD"Aug 18 08:19
DaemonFCfewa: That's all well and good, but how about this?Aug 18 08:19
DaemonFC 18 08:19
fewa^^ niceAug 18 08:21
DaemonFCnow.....I *did* see a Canonical employee ask how to compile VLC for Windows without libdvdcss to distribute on The Open CDAug 18 08:22
fewaShall I paste it for posterities sake?Aug 18 08:22
DaemonFCwhich got me thinking, why would anyone do that when they can download a copy that works right straight from 18 08:22
DaemonFCThe Open CD didn't go over well and eventually was discontinuedAug 18 08:25
DaemonFCand with a DVD player that couldn't play DVDs, an antivirus scanner that couldn't automatically scan, and a word processor that crashes when you open a document with nested tables, that's probably for the bestAug 18 08:26
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Reminder of What Microsoft Did in Denmark and What It’s Up to Now 18 08:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft People Promote Microsoft Moonlight Again 18 08:47
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maxstirnerare we on the front page for google "novell" now or is it just me?Aug 18 08:59
maxstirnercongratulations roy :DAug 18 09:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Xbox Show Crashes, Vista 7 Crashing Too 18 09:15
DaemonFCthenixedreport: Where was that page at where the guys were wondering if store level management at Best Buy would hear their plea to stock Linux systems?Aug 18 09:16
DaemonFCwas that you that sent me that link?Aug 18 09:16
DaemonFCDell and Best Buy are in two different businesses, Best Buy loves Windows because it generates a lot of volumeAug 18 09:17
DaemonFCby volume I mean, you end up buying more software to run on it and their "geek squad" can charge your clueless grandmother $200 to install antivirus softwareAug 18 09:18
DaemonFCthey really are quite crookedAug 18 09:18
DaemonFCBest Buy is like a car lot that sells cars knowing they have problems because they can gouge you for after sales support that wayAug 18 09:20
fewaDaemonFC, your full of shitAug 18 09:23
fewathe whole point of netbooks on a market basis is volumeAug 18 09:23
DaemonFChow do you figure?Aug 18 09:23
fewa(+ a new market)Aug 18 09:23
DaemonFCthere's no volume in LinuxAug 18 09:23
fewaand it uses LinuxAug 18 09:23
DaemonFCthere's the initial saleAug 18 09:23
DaemonFCthat's all Dell would care about, but Best Buy can't profiteer on itAug 18 09:23
fewaYou can't have volume when you change $100 for the friggen OSAug 18 09:24
DaemonFCnobody buys software to run on Linux and very few people pay for supportAug 18 09:24
fewaand just yesterday Dell had numbers that 1/3 of their systems have LinuxAug 18 09:24
DaemonFCBest Buy can double what they made off the sale of a Windows computer in software and support contractsAug 18 09:24
thenixedreportForget Best Buy.Aug 18 09:25
DaemonFCit's like, "your grandmother" goes to Best Buy, she buys a computer with Windows, they sell her an extended warranty, "Geek Squad" gouges the poor woman for $200 to install antivirus and "tune up" the systemAug 18 09:26
DaemonFCa week later she comes back and buys Microsoft OfficeAug 18 09:26
fewaand then she talk to here neighbors about how she hates MicrosoftAug 18 09:27
DaemonFCthey just made over $400 in after sales revenue where a Linux PC would have only got them the sale price of the PCAug 18 09:27
fewaand then I end up installing Linux on her PCAug 18 09:27
DaemonFCthere's an old joke, marriage is like the army, everyone complains, and then they re-enlistAug 18 09:27
DaemonFCMicrosoft is like that tooAug 18 09:27
*fewa has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell ( stop trolling)Aug 18 09:28
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thenixedreport@fewa: That wasn't necessary.Aug 18 09:28
thenixedreportHe was trying to illustrate a point.Aug 18 09:28
thenixedreportNot troll.Aug 18 09:28
thenixedreportHe wasn't trolling.Aug 18 09:28
DaemonFCit happensAug 18 09:28
fewaWell i never see thatAug 18 09:28
thenixedreportHe has an understanding of human nature.Aug 18 09:28
fewaI never went back to microsoftAug 18 09:29
thenixedreportYou're not everyone else.Aug 18 09:29
thenixedreportThat's the difference.Aug 18 09:29
DaemonFCwell, I have that grandmother, and that auntAug 18 09:29
fewaI don't see that natureAug 18 09:29
DaemonFCand they buy Microsoft system after Microsoft systemAug 18 09:29
fewaAlot of people around me have ditched themAug 18 09:29
DaemonFCand I get to go fix it for them repeatedlyAug 18 09:29
thenixedreportSure.Aug 18 09:29
thenixedreportBut keep in mind.Aug 18 09:29
thenixedreportThere are plenty of people who will stick with what they know.Aug 18 09:29
fewaThey arent addictedAug 18 09:29
thenixedreportGates didn't care if his company was convicted of being a monopoly.Aug 18 09:30
thenixedreportHe needed the company to stay in the position it was in long enough for people to get used to their way of thinking.Aug 18 09:30
fewaonly cared if he lost moneyAug 18 09:30
thenixedreportIt's like this.Aug 18 09:30
thenixedreportMany people are creatures of habit.Aug 18 09:30
fewathenixedreport, your rightAug 18 09:30
thenixedreportWhen they're used to something, they don't want to change.Aug 18 09:30
thenixedreportThat's the issue at hand.Aug 18 09:30
DaemonFCpeople take it for granted that you have to unload that kind of money to own a PCAug 18 09:31
thenixedreportAt the end of the day, too many want their systems to simply work.Aug 18 09:31
fewaYou are still only talking about one segmentAug 18 09:31
DaemonFCit's a bigass segmentAug 18 09:31
thenixedreportBut that segment is a very powerful one at that.Aug 18 09:31
fewaalot of people new to computers don't see it that way anymoreAug 18 09:31
fewaThey get a cell phone with a contractAug 18 09:32
fewaits a differn't business modelAug 18 09:32
DaemonFCcell phone contracts appeal to the same mindsetAug 18 09:32
fewaThey see a firefox icon in Linux and they are at homeAug 18 09:32
DaemonFChave to sign my soul to AT&T so I can get an "iPhone"Aug 18 09:32
fewago to FacebookAug 18 09:32
DaemonFCmaybe there's other phones that do the same thing where I don't even need a contractAug 18 09:32
DaemonFCmaybe I don't need those featuresAug 18 09:33
DaemonFCbut I've been told I do :)Aug 18 09:33
thenixedreportIt's a form of mental laziness that we're fighting against.Aug 18 09:33
DaemonFCand the other great hits that never get played in the minds of people trying to fit in or don't know any betterAug 18 09:33
fewaMost people I see don't even realize Linux is differn'tAug 18 09:34
DaemonFCin a lot of ways, it's notAug 18 09:34
DaemonFCa lot of the same concepts, different implementationAug 18 09:34
fewaDaemonFC, we are talking interface, not implamentationAug 18 09:35
thenixedreportThere are people I know who want Windows, because it's what they know.Aug 18 09:35
thenixedreportWhen they hear Linux, they think command line.Aug 18 09:35
DaemonFCthe interface can be made to resemble anythingAug 18 09:35
fewathats the minorityAug 18 09:35
fewa"power users"Aug 18 09:35
DaemonFCGUIs for Linux are kind of a dime a dozenAug 18 09:35
fewaDaemonFC, GUIs for Linux are all compatibleAug 18 09:36
DaemonFCXP's theming engine is quite customizableAug 18 09:36
fewagoing back yearsAug 18 09:36
fewa1985Aug 18 09:36
thenixedreportGUIs for linux?Aug 18 09:36
fewaX11Aug 18 09:37
DaemonFCI don't know why people care about what the system looks like other than for vanity reasonsAug 18 09:37
thenixedreportYou mean KDE, XFCE, GNOME, etc, right?Aug 18 09:37
thenixedreportX11?Aug 18 09:37
thenixedreportThat's not a part of linux.Aug 18 09:37
DaemonFCyeah, that, and skinsAug 18 09:37
thenixedreportLinux is a kernel.Aug 18 09:37
thenixedreportNothing more, nothing less.Aug 18 09:37
thenixedreport:)Aug 18 09:37
DaemonFCGNOME GTK+ engines are probably more customizable than other desktop environmentsAug 18 09:38
DaemonFCI've even seen some fairly convincing OS X and Vista themes for UbuntuAug 18 09:38
DaemonFCsickeningly similar reallyAug 18 09:38
thenixedreportX11 has ports for the *BSD's, etc....Aug 18 09:39
fewaummm it _was_ for the BSDs etcAug 18 09:39
fewaand was ported to LinuxAug 18 09:39
DaemonFCdamned Nvidia won't release a proper x86-64 driver for FreeBSDAug 18 09:39
DaemonFCmore like Linux was ported to X11Aug 18 09:40
DaemonFCif you read the documentation from that eraAug 18 09:40
DaemonFCin fact I think that's why it took forever to get from Linux 0.99 to 1.0Aug 18 09:41
DaemonFCthey were having such a damned time trying to get it to where it could run X reliablyAug 18 09:41
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MinceRDaemonFC: well, you can thank android for making the designation "GNU/Linux" important. :>Aug 18 09:50
DaemonFCthat depends largely on how important you figure Android isAug 18 09:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Good Morning, Bom Dia, Guten Morgen, Bonjour, Buon giorno, Bună dimineaţa, Καλημέρα, Buenos días, Goedemorgen, God morgon #morningtweetAug 18 09:50
MinceRthe fact that it sucks is importantAug 18 09:51
MinceR:>Aug 18 09:51
DaemonFCAndroid strikes me as one of those shiney things that gets your attention for 5 minutes and then it really never comes up againAug 18 09:51
MinceRit was supposed to be the first open, linux-based smartphone/pda-phone OSAug 18 09:52
DaemonFCI'm kind of thinking Chrome OS might share the fate, I hope I'm wrong thoughAug 18 09:52
MinceRturned out to be crapAug 18 09:52
MinceRchrome os starts badly: with a claim that they're going to use a different windowing systemAug 18 09:52
DaemonFCyou mean a from scratch one?Aug 18 09:53
MinceRi just hope it will help break the winblows hegemonyAug 18 09:53
MinceRi don't know, they didn't sayAug 18 09:53
MinceRbut it sounded a lot like "we won't use x" at the timeAug 18 09:53
MinceRmaybe i'm just pessimisticAug 18 09:53
DaemonFChmmmmAug 18 09:53
DaemonFCwell, the only bad part about ditching X is all the compatibility you'll loseAug 18 09:54
DaemonFCother than that, burn itAug 18 09:54
MinceRnot reallyAug 18 09:54
DaemonFCI was hopeful that Y would catch on, it didn'tAug 18 09:54
DaemonFCthat was dead almost immediatelyAug 18 09:54
MinceRyou'll lose most importantly the idea of separating policy from mechanismAug 18 09:54
MinceRand a lot of functionalityAug 18 09:54
MinceRall the other windowing system projects i've seen just don't get itAug 18 09:55
DaemonFCthey're sort of hacking in a lot of what Y was supposed to be into X thoughAug 18 09:55
DaemonFCso it could all end up OKAug 18 09:55
MinceRand they want to lump everything and the kitchen sink togetherAug 18 09:55
MinceRso you get another windows or osxAug 18 09:55
DaemonFCwell, for a long time X was what you loaded when you wanted your system to be slower than Windows 95Aug 18 09:55
MinceRa limited windowing system, a half-assed window manager and a limited gui toolkit lumped together, all forced on youAug 18 09:56
DaemonFCand then it improved and systems got faster, mostly systems got fasterAug 18 09:56
DaemonFCand now it's just an amazingly complex and bug prone security hazardAug 18 09:56
MinceRstrange, when i started using x it was already faster than winblows ntAug 18 09:56
DaemonFCbut that's being worked on, or so I've heardAug 18 09:56
MinceRyou're just amazingly ignorantAug 18 09:56
DaemonFCX would scare the hell out of anyone with 16 megs of RAM at that point in timeAug 18 09:57
DaemonFCwhile Windows 95 ran fineAug 18 09:57
MinceRyou have an interesting idea of "fine"Aug 18 09:57
DaemonFCwell, working at all is what I'm getting at hereAug 18 09:58
MinceRwell, X did that tooAug 18 09:58
DaemonFCX required about the same level of hardware as NTAug 18 09:58
DaemonFCwhich wasn't cheapAug 18 09:58
MinceRbut we all know NT wasn't windowsAug 18 09:59
MinceRoh, waitAug 18 09:59
DaemonFCright off the bat you needed at least double the RAM and a faster CPUAug 18 09:59
DaemonFCit cost almost as much for an extra 16 megs then than it does for an extra 16 gigs nowAug 18 10:00
DaemonFCso X can use all the memory it wants now and it really doesn't matter unless you're on some kind of mobile phone :PAug 18 10:00
MinceRsome pdas run x now :>Aug 18 10:00
DaemonFCwhich is where the idea for Android came about I'm reasonably sureAug 18 10:00
DaemonFCit's not the full blown X, it's a subsetAug 18 10:01
DaemonFCAtomicX or whatnotAug 18 10:01
MinceRhm, so does openmokoAug 18 10:01
DaemonFCI haven't looked into that in a whileAug 18 10:01
fewayeah openmoko == XAug 18 10:02
fewaright?Aug 18 10:02
fewaor at least the important partsAug 18 10:02
DaemonFCif you go to load X on a Game Boy Advance you need AtomicX, there's about as much memory in one of those as a lot of cell phonesAug 18 10:02
DaemonFCof course if you're talking $500 cell phone, then **** yeah, bring it! :PAug 18 10:03
DaemonFCheheAug 18 10:03
fewayou mean retailAug 18 10:03
fewanot actual costAug 18 10:03
fewaconsidering that netbooks have all sorts or RAM and hertz for <$300Aug 18 10:03
MinceRyou can get a pda/phone for less than $500 now :>Aug 18 10:03
DaemonFCwell sure, just bust out the soldering board and melt down a few barbie dollsAug 18 10:03
DaemonFChstle over to radio shackAug 18 10:04
DaemonFCyou'll do yourself up something that runs Linux with X and has GPS in it I'm sureAug 18 10:04
MinceRi still can't recall what windows i was using when i switched to linuxAug 18 10:05
DaemonFChmmm, decent Blackbery will run you $250-ishAug 18 10:05
DaemonFCiPhone will run about $500 with subsidyAug 18 10:05
MinceRthe hypePhone doesn't qualify anywayAug 18 10:05
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MinceRit's less open than j2meAug 18 10:06
DaemonFCiPhone is what 14 year old spoiled brats wave aroundAug 18 10:06
DaemonFC"Lookie what mommy got me!"Aug 18 10:06
fewai don't believe that the iPhone actually costs that much howeverAug 18 10:07
DaemonFCand then you think "Now I need to kill myself because I'm working and balancing a checkbook and that little **** has a $500 phone"Aug 18 10:07
DaemonFC$500 with contract, since you can't get them without one, who knows what Apple is making per unit?Aug 18 10:08
DaemonFC$700 is my guess, something like thatAug 18 10:09
DaemonFCit's ridiculous whatever it isAug 18 10:09
fewaCongress has started to question the exclusivity arrangementAug 18 10:09
fewaand such deals in generalAug 18 10:09
DaemonFCwell, Apple may just get a slap on the wrist three years from nowAug 18 10:10
DaemonFCgo feds!Aug 18 10:10
DaemonFC:PAug 18 10:10
fewaWell if they were pushed on it....Aug 18 10:10
fewaWe could get comprehensive network neutralityAug 18 10:10
fewaIf it included the EMS it would greatly reduce cell phone costsAug 18 10:10
DaemonFCI've always said monopoly is more than just market share, you have to look at hardware/software lock-in, about how many people are using them both out of choice, etc.Aug 18 10:11
DaemonFCI doubt anyone has any love for AT&TAug 18 10:11
DaemonFCI sure as hell hate themAug 18 10:11
fewaDaemonFC, read the definition to monopolyAug 18 10:11
fewaDaemonFC, as you are totally uneducated about itAug 18 10:11
fewaboth in the context of the sherman anti-trust actAug 18 10:11
DaemonFCI'd say if 90% of people use something out of choice, it's not a bad thingAug 18 10:12
fewaand also in relation to standard english usageAug 18 10:12
DaemonFCif they've been manipulated, it is a bad thingAug 18 10:12
fewaCause you are calling "monopoly abuse" "monopoly"Aug 18 10:12
fewatwo differnt thingsAug 18 10:12
DaemonFCa free market will usually sort things out, not always, it's always evil when the government interferes, but sometimes it's a necessary evilAug 18 10:13
fewaDaemonFC, falseAug 18 10:13
DaemonFCtoo much of that leads to a planned economy where there is no competition and no improvementAug 18 10:13
fewaa free market will always become a monopoly market, and creates so many externalities that it becomes unsustainableAug 18 10:13
DaemonFCso the government should tell all the factories what they'll make this year and what you will buy this year?Aug 18 10:14
DaemonFCthis sounds horribly familiarAug 18 10:14
fewawithout adequate regulationAug 18 10:14
fewafor example look here: 18 10:14
fewaJoseph Stiglitz nobel prizeAug 18 10:15
DaemonFCI'd say the ideal is a mostly-free market where the government has the minimal amount of regulation to keep comeptition goingAug 18 10:15
fewaWhen two parties have differn't access to information, their their deals are unbalanced. So unless everyone has access to the same information the free market does not function correctly.Aug 18 10:16
DaemonFCtoo far to either side and the system collapsesAug 18 10:16
fewaWell thats not badAug 18 10:16
fewathats essentially the Sherman anti-trust actAug 18 10:16
DaemonFCthe government should manipulate the market jsut enough to cause intense fighting among all corporations in that marketAug 18 10:17
DaemonFCthat would get prices down, quality up, and improvements in technology coming regularlyAug 18 10:17
fewaBut it doesn't work if it isn't enforcedAug 18 10:17
DaemonFCwhere the operating system market is now is the opposite of thatAug 18 10:17
DaemonFCWindows is hundreds of dollars, it's full of holes, and people are stranded on the version released 8 years agoAug 18 10:18
cubezzzI'd like to know exactly how much OEMs pay for WindowsAug 18 10:18
DaemonFCI'd say someone is not doing their job to regulate Microsoft, and that Microsoft has done what any company would in such a vaccuumAug 18 10:18
fewaAnd GNU, Linux, and free software are a free market compared to the Microsoft cartelAug 18 10:18
cubezzzit seems like it would be around $30 per machineAug 18 10:19
DaemonFC$50 was the going rate for XP Home Edition to bulk OEMsAug 18 10:19
cubezzzwell, it's largely the DOJ's fault I would sayAug 18 10:19
DaemonFCI think Vista Home Premium is about that muchAug 18 10:19
fewaObama's change should include presecuting the clearly anti-competitive netbook market manipulation deals of MicrosoftAug 18 10:20
DaemonFCbut right there, it makes small PC makers non-competitiveAug 18 10:20
DaemonFCif I have to compete with Dell but my OEM copies of Windows cost $100 while theirs cost $50, I can't competeAug 18 10:20
DaemonFCand then if a consumer goes out and makes their own system and wants the same version of Windows from the retail channel, it could be $200Aug 18 10:21
fewaMicrosoft can sell it to differn't prices to differnt peopleAug 18 10:21
DaemonFCthere's something deeply wrong hereAug 18 10:21
cubezzzit's really bad, I don't think I've ever seen a non-windows laptop in a storeAug 18 10:21
cubezzzonline yes, store noAug 18 10:21
fewabut they can't anti-competitively prevent people from executing their first-sale doctrine priviliagesAug 18 10:21
fewaWhich they doAug 18 10:21
MinceRturns out winxp didn't exist when i switched to red hat so i must have been using win98seAug 18 10:22
MinceRand linux didn't perform badly at all :)Aug 18 10:22
MinceRwin98se or plain win98, i'm not sureAug 18 10:22
cubezzzredhat > win98 easilyAug 18 10:22
DaemonFCWindows 98.....uggghhhAug 18 10:22
fewaIf any OEM tried to execute those rights Microsoft would "cut those f**kers off"Aug 18 10:22
MinceRi preferred dos+win3.1, i got win98 because Total Annihilation required it :>Aug 18 10:23
DaemonFCif it came with IE 4 and DirectX 5, it was 98, if it came with IE 5 and DirectX 6, it was 98SEAug 18 10:23
MinceRi'm not sure, i've probably upgraded bothAug 18 10:23
DaemonFCthere wasn't anything in 98SE that you couldn't download for freeAug 18 10:23
MinceRi had a lot of time to play games and i think i did use IE back thenAug 18 10:23
cubezzzwell, there are whitebox builders, they don't force windows on you for PCs, but laptops, I've never seen anyone sell blank laptopsAug 18 10:23
DaemonFCyou were basically buying a service pack discAug 18 10:23
DaemonFCWindows 98 first edition users could buy the 98SE disc for $29Aug 18 10:24
DaemonFClots of people didn't have fast internet or a CD burner thenAug 18 10:24
MinceRin fact, prboom was easily faster on linux than on windowsAug 18 10:25
cubezzzno Amiga folks here? :)Aug 18 10:25
DaemonFCdepends on hardware and if you were actually jsut running the MS-DOS version of DOOM within WindowsAug 18 10:25
MinceRdespite it using software synthesis for midi as opposed to windows which could use my awe32 alreadyAug 18 10:25
MinceRno, i was running the same version of prboomAug 18 10:25
MinceRcubezzz: no, i started in zx spectrum and went to i386 from thereAug 18 10:26
DaemonFCthe 386 was just good enough for DoomAug 18 10:26
DaemonFC:PAug 18 10:26
MinceRat the time i used win98 and red hat 7.0 i had a pentium 120 though, iircAug 18 10:26
DaemonFCI remember playing it in monochrome on my old laptopAug 18 10:27
MinceRwith 32MB RAMAug 18 10:27
MinceRhm, not sure about thatAug 18 10:27
MinceRi think it's correctAug 18 10:27
DaemonFCI had a 550 Mhz K6/2 and 384 megs of RAMAug 18 10:27
DaemonFCand a Voodoo 5 5500Aug 18 10:27
MinceRi had no 3d accelerator back thenAug 18 10:27
DaemonFCso nothing I really did could slow Windows down, heheAug 18 10:27
MinceRmy next pc did have one, thoughAug 18 10:27
MinceR(it was a p4/2.4, 512MB RAM, Ti4200-8x)Aug 18 10:28
MinceR(and audigy 2 platinum)Aug 18 10:28
DaemonFCPentium 4 was pretty awfulAug 18 10:28
MinceRit was a large step up for me :>Aug 18 10:28
DaemonFCI ended up getting a dual socket motherboard and running two Pentium 3'sAug 18 10:28
DaemonFCand Windows 2000Aug 18 10:28
cubezzztoo bad Amiga didn't really survive, it isn't totally dead but 99% deadAug 18 10:28
MinceRhow much did your apps like that?Aug 18 10:28
DaemonFCWindows 2000 supports SMPAug 18 10:29
MinceRmultithreading wasn't too popular back thenAug 18 10:29
MinceRi said apps, not osAug 18 10:29
DaemonFCmultithreading wasn'tAug 18 10:29
DaemonFCmultitasking improved a hell of a lotAug 18 10:29
cubezzzNT 4.0 did too I thinkAug 18 10:29
DaemonFCif one CPU bogged down, Windows would shift other apps that needed run time to the other CPUAug 18 10:30
DaemonFCwhich was the reason you wanted two CPUs really :)Aug 18 10:30
MinceRstill didn't help much with gamingAug 18 10:30
MinceRone CPU would sit mostly unusedAug 18 10:30
DaemonFCno, but it meant that I didn't have to shut down background apps to run my gamesAug 18 10:30
cubezzzI imagine it would help a bitAug 18 10:30
DaemonFCI could dedicate an entire CPU just for themAug 18 10:30
MinceRwell, if you had lots of ram, you didn't :>Aug 18 10:30
DaemonFChey, it's me, I always do overkill with the RAMAug 18 10:31
DaemonFC:DAug 18 10:31
MinceRthen again, i didn't get used to running a lot of apps simultaneously until i switched to linuxAug 18 10:31
MinceRwell yeah, windows eats a lot of ram so it's pretty much necessary :>Aug 18 10:31
DaemonFCWindows 9x had no SMP supprot at all, totally inappropriate for dual socket motherboardsAug 18 10:31
MinceRmy first dual-core machine was my dell laptopAug 18 10:32
DaemonFCI was pissed that I had to go buy a copy of Windows 2000 to get thatAug 18 10:32
DaemonFCI tried initially just reusing Windows 98Aug 18 10:32
cubezzzwhat about earlier Linux? When did it start supporting multi-cpu?Aug 18 10:32
DaemonFCLinux has supported that since 1996 I thinkAug 18 10:32
DaemonFCversion 2.0Aug 18 10:32
DaemonFCit wasn't great SMP support, but it had itAug 18 10:33
DaemonFCaround 1998 and version 2.2 thigns got a lot smootherAug 18 10:33
DaemonFCit wasn't really until 2.6 though that SMP got first rate support, that was 2003 I thinkAug 18 10:33
DaemonFCthe kernel suffered lots of latency before 2.6, that kills SMP performanceAug 18 10:34
DaemonFCnow it actually does better than Windows :PAug 18 10:34
DaemonFCtook it a while to catch up to Windows, but it's been doing better for about 6 years nowAug 18 10:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me is using SwiftweaselAug 18 10:37
DaemonFCthe tide seems to be turning on the Windows 7 pressAug 18 10:40
DaemonFCit's gone from all good to "Windows 7 is here, ho-hum"Aug 18 10:41
DaemonFCthat was fastAug 18 10:41
MinceRwell, of courseAug 18 10:41
MinceRnow not only the people they've bribed with laptops know/care about itAug 18 10:41
MinceRthey had to leak more info, so now everyone knows it's just another SP for vistaAug 18 10:41
MinceRwith a new skinAug 18 10:42
DaemonFCit's worse than Vista in some waysAug 18 10:42
DaemonFCVista didn't try to DRM my cable TVAug 18 10:42
MinceRit wouldn't be a m$ product if it wasn't worse in its predecessor in some waysAug 18 10:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Visible Technologies Spies on Microsoft Brands Using TruCast/TruPulse, to Control Perception 18 10:44
DaemonFChmmmAug 18 10:45
schestowitz 18 10:46
schestowitzCan anyone help me google Visible Technologies to see if others exposed them for similar things?Aug 18 10:49
*fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Aug 18 10:49
schestowitz 18 10:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: I ended up with two hits from them yesterdayAug 18 10:50
DaemonFCI'm still trying to figure out what else they looked atAug 18 10:50
schestowitz Visible Technologies is Playing with FireAug 18 10:51
DaemonFCschestowitz, those kinds of people are the reason I turned on comment moderation for all commentsAug 18 10:55
DaemonFCdefault for wordpress is that after you aprrove one comment, anything else they post automatically gets added, so I had people make one innocent comment then spew a bunch of crap while I wasn't lookingAug 18 10:56
DaemonFC*approveAug 18 10:56
DaemonFCschestowitz, 18 10:58
DaemonFCnew addressAug 18 10:58
DaemonFCno street view for this one, looks like it's out in the middle of nowhereAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCprobably one of those blank buildings that comapny headquarters useAug 18 11:00
DaemonFC*companyAug 18 11:00
DaemonFCschestowitz, company blog visinsights.comAug 18 11:01
DaemonFCChris Pirillo is associated with themAug 18 11:03
DaemonFC 18 11:03
DaemonFCPirillo has been a Microsoft shill for a whileAug 18 11:05
DaemonFCthey send him Windows shirts and baseball hats and free copies of all their stuffAug 18 11:05
DaemonFCschestowitz, another visible technologies site trureputation.comAug 18 11:07
DaemonFCPhone 425.957.6100Aug 18 11:08
schestowitzThe Seattle Times says it best: "Clients pick an “author” or opt for anonymity. Visible [Technologies] also has a virtual army — thousands of personas registered with online forums."Aug 18 11:09
schestowitzThankls.Aug 18 11:09
DaemonFCoh, sockpuppetsAug 18 11:10
DaemonFCso many to choose fromAug 18 11:10
DaemonFCI wonder how many postings on forums are the same person from Visible Technologies replying to themselvesAug 18 11:11
DaemonFCas of August 2006, they only had 28 employeesAug 18 11:12
DaemonFCso either they did some hiring or those 28 employees are each 10 different people on every forum they "monitor"Aug 18 11:12
DaemonFCschestowitz, 18 11:13
DaemonFCPirillo blogs about themAug 18 11:13
DaemonFCgood video, seems to explain what they doAug 18 11:14
DaemonFCschestowitz, this reminds me....Aug 18 11:16
DaemonFCDigsby is dumping distributed computing foistware on users, right?Aug 18 11:16
DaemonFCthe foistware says that it may be using your system to conduct web searches, stock market analyzing, etc.Aug 18 11:17
DaemonFCyou don't suppose Visible Technologies is one of the ones behind the foistware Digsby is placing on people's computers?Aug 18 11:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Added the Pilch summary on the SSP page: 18 11:17
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 11:27
DaemonFC 18 11:33
schestowitzI'm not done yet with "visible"Aug 18 11:35
schestowitzThey have other victimsAug 18 11:35
schestowitzYes, SJVN said the truthAug 18 11:36
schestowitzNot the W-E-bribed bloggersAug 18 11:36
DaemonFCit would be nice if Microsoft would just fix the problems people were complaining aboutAug 18 11:36
DaemonFCinstead of trying to buy their silence with trinketsAug 18 11:36
schestowitzWTF?? 18 11:38
DaemonFCI remember when all the bad PR about the Windows Vista Release Candidate was going around, Microsoft started passing out free high end laptops to influential bloggersAug 18 11:38
schestowitz Buzz Marketing techniques to become illegal in UK?Aug 18 11:38
oiaohmDaemonFC: Microsoft has proven past question money cannot buy everything.Aug 18 11:45
DaemonFCwell, so what if they shut up a couple dozen bloggers with free toys?Aug 18 11:46
DaemonFCpeople see that and stop trusting that bloggerAug 18 11:46
oiaohmI was not refering to just the bloggers think how much money they spent development vista.Aug 18 11:47
DaemonFCit would have gone a lot smoother if they had just based it on Windows 2003 to begin withAug 18 11:50
DaemonFCor at least had some idea of where they were going before they started running in that directionAug 18 11:51
DaemonFCpaying people for the first 3 years of wasted effort was the biggest part of what Vista cost themAug 18 11:51
schestowitzOMGAug 18 11:52
schestowitzThey are funded by MicrosoftAug 18 11:52
schestowitzVia the Ignition shallAug 18 11:52
schestowitz*shellAug 18 11:52
schestowitz 18 11:53
schestowitzOK, I'm done. Lots for next postAug 18 12:04
schestowitzWhat a small world it is in Seattle areaAug 18 12:04
schestowitzTop Ad Sales Exec on West Coast Departs Yahoo < >Aug 18 12:08
schestowitz US man 'stole 130m card numbers' < >Aug 18 12:11
cubezzzI'm glad I don't live in MicrosoftlandAug 18 12:12
DaemonFCschestowitz, I mentioned that in a post I madeAug 18 12:13
schestowitzGoldman Shakes Off ‘Negative Press’ < >Aug 18 12:13
DaemonFCI think Microsoft should be sued for allowing their software to ship like thatAug 18 12:13
schestowitzHow?Aug 18 12:13
schestowitzBad state technically?Aug 18 12:13
schestowitzLiability is a tricky issueAug 18 12:13
DaemonFCyeah, defective merchandiseAug 18 12:13
schestowitzWhen applied to FOSSAug 18 12:13
schestowitzYes, but LF would take the same positionAug 18 12:14
schestowitzThey can't be held liableAug 18 12:14
schestowitzDifference is, people are FORCED to pay for defective WIndowsAug 18 12:14
schestowitzPeople are not forced to pay for LinuxAug 18 12:14
DaemonFCwell, that's different, you can't complain when somethign was given to you for free with no warranty and they even made sure you knew there were no guaranteesAug 18 12:14
schestowitzSO people could in theory sue OEMs for forcing them to buy PCs saddled with nastywareAug 18 12:14
DaemonFCMicrosoft is selling you a productAug 18 12:14
schestowitzSoftware that lets your personal data leak to the WebAug 18 12:14
cubezzzwell, even if it is defective, at least you have the source codeAug 18 12:14
schestowitzcubezzz: still a tricky isuseAug 18 12:15
cubezzzat least for FOSS :)Aug 18 12:15
schestowitzIt was proposed before.Aug 18 12:15
DaemonFC 18 12:15
schestowitz"Several large Wall Street firms that had underwriting operations, including Merrill Lynch & Co., Citigroup Inc., J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., UBS AG and Goldman Sachs Group Inc., have settled with regulators, agreeing to buy back more than $60 billion in auction-rate securities from customers."Aug 18 12:16
schestowitz 18 12:16
DaemonFCI argue there that XP is still the most important and demanded version of Windows, and that even though it's two versions old almsot nobody is using VistaAug 18 12:16
cubezzzI'm trying to get people off of windowsAug 18 12:16
cubezzzjust as a support issueAug 18 12:16
DaemonFCwell, my argument is that even if they did make Vista more secure, the kind of machines that are running XP Embedded can't handle Vista anywayAug 18 12:17
schestowitzYou link to rubbish numberdAug 18 12:17
cubezzzthey resist because sometimes there's an office file that open office can't handle :-/Aug 18 12:17
schestowitzUS-only stats from a Microsoft-sponsored entityAug 18 12:17
cubezzzthe other day I was talking to this staples guy and he says "I don't support MAC and I don't support Linux"Aug 18 12:18
cubezzzpretty badAug 18 12:18
DaemonFCif people would just use Office 2000 formats, anything can open or save to them, pretty muchAug 18 12:18
schestowitz Why Don’t More Entrepreneurs Want to Be Entrepreneurs?Aug 18 12:19
cubezzza lot of people use Office XP these daysAug 18 12:19
DaemonFCI have that on discAug 18 12:19
cubezzzof course I tell them not to, but that has little effectAug 18 12:20
DaemonFCI have I try not to use any XML formatsAug 18 12:20
DaemonFCbecause then there's a good chance it's screwed no matter what everyone else is usingAug 18 12:20
cubezzzif I sell a laptop, I give them XP and Fedora 10 with dual bootAug 18 12:20
cubezzzkeeps them happyAug 18 12:21
cubezzzmost people don't like Vista, that is very commonAug 18 12:22
cubezzzso Linux has an opportunity for sureAug 18 12:22
MinceR 18 12:25
MinceR"The data would be anonymous, but serious repeat infringers would be tracked down through their computer ID numbers."Aug 18 12:25
schestowitzSiegels win a round in epic battle for Superman < > He seems to have just adapted ubermench from NietzscheAug 18 12:26
MinceRsounds like the meaning of the word "anonymous" is unknown in the UKAug 18 12:26
schestowitzThis doesn't tell the whole storyAug 18 12:28
cubezzzummm, is the guy who invented superman still alive?Aug 18 12:28
schestowitzMandelson has just met some old MAFIAA guyAug 18 12:28
cubezzzthat was a long time agoAug 18 12:28
schestowitzSo his moves are likely relatedAug 18 12:28
schestowitzHollywood tells politicians what to doAug 18 12:28
oiaohmMS Office format is screwed.Aug 18 12:28
schestowitzSome American billionaire in this caseAug 18 12:28
oiaohmTo be correct all .doc formats DaemonFCAug 18 12:28
schestowitzMaybe he can reward a meager $million after his termAug 18 12:28
schestowitz[to MandelsonAug 18 12:29
oiaohmPrinter information is used to encode layout so change printer you document screws up.Aug 18 12:29
oiaohmOpenoffice does a good job of guessing it way out of the error in the MS doc format.Aug 18 12:29
schestowitz"Bitter pill for fanboys to swallow?" 18 12:46
*DaemonFC is still happy enough with the SansaAug 18 12:51
*DaemonFC rigged it so that XP x64 can kind of see it as an external hard disk, it syncs, hell with itAug 18 12:51
DaemonFC:PAug 18 12:51
schestowitzThis site seems iffy... 18 12:52
DaemonFCUbuntu One seems to be their reaction to Mandriva's online backupAug 18 12:52
DaemonFCand VLC is the best program ever :PAug 18 12:53
DaemonFCreplaces all kinds of crapwareAug 18 12:53
DaemonFCcaptures my webcam, my TV tuner card, has codecs for everything, probably tons of stuff I still don't know that it can doAug 18 12:54
schestowitzGeez. Some people don't get "Fun". "Hannah Montana Makes Sure No One Takes Linux Seriously" < >Aug 18 12:55
*MinceR captures DaemonFC's webcam and holds it for ransomAug 18 12:55
schestowitzTHat's like saying that being able to dress as a clown makes a gentleman an eternal dunceAug 18 12:55
*DaemonFC encapsulates MinceR into an ASF containerAug 18 12:55
schestowitzrm -f *.asfAug 18 12:56
*MinceR is incompatible with ASFAug 18 12:56
schestowitz "The word on the Net is that Ubuntu is not for geeks. I believe that’s true."Aug 18 12:57
*DaemonFC copy protects MinceR, one is more than enough, thank youAug 18 12:57
DaemonFC:PAug 18 12:57
MinceRcopies will be mutated :>Aug 18 12:57
cubezzzit looks like Palm Pre is the best Linux PDA nowAug 18 12:58
MinceRit isn'tAug 18 12:58
MinceRit spies on its usersAug 18 12:58
MinceRalso, its only sdk is html5/javascriptAug 18 12:59
DaemonFCneeds more cowbellAug 18 12:59
schestowitz"We do hope to see Dell offer a similar configuration with Ubuntu Linux as the operating system of choice in the future to keep the price low sometime in the future." 18 12:59
cubezzzMinceR, what would you recommend instead?Aug 18 12:59
MinceRnot sure... i was researching and chose the Nokia N97Aug 18 12:59
MinceRit isn't linux, mind youAug 18 12:59
DaemonFCmost embedded devices aren'tAug 18 12:59
MinceRi think i'll wait until october and see how the Maemo-based N900 turns outAug 18 12:59
cubezzzweren't the older Nokia tablets linux-based?Aug 18 13:00
MinceRthey were, but they aren't phonesAug 18 13:00
cubezzzah, I seeAug 18 13:00
DaemonFCunless there's a flash ROM and someone on the internet that got bored and made a Linux firmware for itAug 18 13:00
MinceRit's rumored that the N900 will have GSM, UMTS and "cellular voice" supportAug 18 13:00
MinceRi'm still wondering about PIM apps thoughAug 18 13:01
MinceRand the mockups presented didn't have call/end buttonsAug 18 13:01
*tacone (n=Adium@ has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 13:01
cubezzzwow, there's a ton of Palm Pre stuff on ebayAug 18 13:01
DaemonFCtocuhscreens have to be the most overrated thing everAug 18 13:01
DaemonFC*touchscreensAug 18 13:02
DaemonFCschestowitz, to be fair, that guy has a point, with the ipv6 gripe anywayAug 18 13:03
DaemonFCit's compiled into the kernel in Ubuntu now for no reason at allAug 18 13:03
MinceRthey're nice for doodlingAug 18 13:04
oiaohmDefine no reason.Aug 18 13:04
DaemonFCso if it causes problems, you can't blacklist itAug 18 13:04
MinceRand more advanced (wacom) touchscreens would be nice for drawingAug 18 13:04
oiaohmDaemonFC: some forms of windows networking plays up without ipv6Aug 18 13:04
MinceRbut the former is noncritical and the latter is expensive :)Aug 18 13:04
MinceRDaemonFC: there's a reason to support ipv6 nowAug 18 13:05
DaemonFCsupport yes, mandatory, noAug 18 13:05
MinceRipv4 addresses are running out -- everything should be in place to start migratingAug 18 13:05
DaemonFCit should still be a moduleAug 18 13:05
MinceRyou aren't forced to use ipv6Aug 18 13:05
MinceRnot even to bring up an ipv6 interfaceAug 18 13:05
DaemonFCjust having the driver loaded can cause problemsAug 18 13:05
MinceRyou aren't even forced to use ubuntu with a stock ubuntu kernelAug 18 13:05
schestowitzMinceR: maybe the global warming will take care of IPv4Aug 18 13:06
oiaohmNot that I have found DaemonFCAug 18 13:06
oiaohmthe ipv6 if you disable if from all network cards it no longer findable to applications DaemonFCAug 18 13:06
oiaohmNote all network cards include loop back.Aug 18 13:06
MinceRDaemonFC: if it was in a module, it would still most likely have to be loaded by defaultAug 18 13:06
DaemonFCmaybe revoking and reclaiming all the ipv4 addresses from the countries who base their entire economy on spamming Americans would solve the problemAug 18 13:07
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:07
schestowitzI's no embarrassment to say the planet is overpopulated because it cannot contain so much pollution. Prominent people say this. IPv6 has room for other planet in the address spaceAug 18 13:07
schestowitzAs if we'll explore another homeAug 18 13:07
MinceRbecause there's no n00b-friendly way to enable itAug 18 13:07
MinceRwhich means it would impede adoption of ipv6 otherwiseAug 18 13:07
MinceRwhich is unacceptableAug 18 13:07
MinceRi keep saying the planet is overpopulatedAug 18 13:07
schestowitzBirth controlAug 18 13:07
MinceRi even have some proposed solutionsAug 18 13:07
schestowitzContraception in every home.. but religions don't permit itAug 18 13:08
cubezzzyeah, things were "better" 200 years ago :)Aug 18 13:08
DaemonFC 18 13:08
MinceRlate abortion!Aug 18 13:08
oiaohmNature will catch up with us MinceRAug 18 13:08
cubezzzhow about making the birth rate = death rate ?Aug 18 13:08
MinceRoiaohm: or it will die and take us with itselfAug 18 13:08
oiaohmWe are preventing chidren from dieing who should have due to dna faults.Aug 18 13:08
schestowitzThe planet is underpopulated.... but trees and wild lifeAug 18 13:08
schestowitzhere's an ideaAug 18 13:08
MinceRwe are also keeping particularly harmful criminals alive and well-fedAug 18 13:09
schestowitzEncourage families to raise vixen and rabbitsAug 18 13:09
DaemonFChow about executing rapists, murderers, and other violent criminals?Aug 18 13:09
oiaohmIncreasing numbers of defective dna will work as birth control sooner or latter.Aug 18 13:09
DaemonFChmmmmAug 18 13:09
schestowitzANd to planet treeAug 18 13:09
schestowitz*plant treesAug 18 13:09
schestowitzMake it fashionableAug 18 13:09
schestowitzPeople will come home from work to greet gardens Aug 18 13:09
schestowitzIt's either that or forces re-popultion havocAug 18 13:10
oiaohmrapists kill because they can increase population give murderers a free hand and it would get under control quite quicky.Aug 18 13:10
schestowitzCountries no longer need to glamorise birth (like 10 kids per couple) for cannon fodder reasonsAug 18 13:10
schestowitzMan count does not equate security anymoreAug 18 13:10
schestowitzTHat was exceeded over 60 years ago (atomic weapons)Aug 18 13:10
schestowitzSo IMHO, either we dead with it or nature itAug 18 13:11
schestowitz*dealAug 18 13:11
oiaohmMetal storm tech is also going down that path too.Aug 18 13:11
DaemonFCknocked up teenagersAug 18 13:11
DaemonFC:PAug 18 13:11
schestowitz*nature willAug 18 13:11
oiaohmWithout the atomic radition problem.Aug 18 13:11
oiaohmie robots with very big guns.Aug 18 13:11
schestowitzDaemonFC: it's partly a social isueAug 18 13:11
schestowitz*issueAug 18 13:11
oiaohmEither nature will get us.  Or we will get our selves.Aug 18 13:11
*MinceR wants robots with very big gunsAug 18 13:12
schestowitzIn the US, these girls often get welfare or the church forbids abortionAug 18 13:12
oiaohmThe questions is what way do you want to go.Aug 18 13:12
MinceRincluding one that can be controlled from the insideAug 18 13:12
DaemonFCwell, the laws in a lot of states requires parental permission to get an abortion if you're under 18Aug 18 13:12
schestowitzThis leads to miseducation in some quarters (neglectful parents), crime, and so on.Aug 18 13:12
DaemonFCI'd say the grandparents should have to deal with it if they force you to have itAug 18 13:12
oiaohmMinceR: sorry these are more like terminator robots.Aug 18 13:12
MinceRtoo smallAug 18 13:12
oiaohmOnes that don't need humans MinceR.Aug 18 13:12
MinceRcan't carry big enough guns!Aug 18 13:12
oiaohmYes we are as dumb as dish water.Aug 18 13:12
oiaohmYou need small enough to go into buildings and weed out the humans MinceRAug 18 13:13
oiaohmSo you can get 100 percent kill rate in a area.Aug 18 13:14
MinceRnahAug 18 13:14
oiaohmNo lucky human hiding anywhere.Aug 18 13:14
MinceRjust blow a hole in the side of the buildingAug 18 13:14
MinceRor blow it up completelyAug 18 13:14
DaemonFCsomehow those people don't work, have 10 kids, they all smoke, they're alcoholics, and somehow they manage to surviveAug 18 13:14
DaemonFCwelfare checksAug 18 13:14
oiaohmYou could still miss people in underground sections MinceRAug 18 13:14
MinceRbetter blast your way into them, thenAug 18 13:15
oiaohmYes they are targeting ways to get 100 percent kill out of a area.Aug 18 13:15
MinceRthere's no problem a bigger gun can't solve ;)Aug 18 13:15
oiaohmTo a point you don't what to be blowing up you own units by mistake either.Aug 18 13:15
DaemonFCdon't worry, India and Pakistan may still nuke each other yetAug 18 13:15
DaemonFCthat solves most of the overpopulationAug 18 13:15
DaemonFCbut it still subjects neighboring areas to falloutAug 18 13:15
DaemonFCit could mutate MinceR into something resembling humanAug 18 13:16
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:16
MinceRthat would be horribleAug 18 13:16
oiaohmAlso would risk setting of some major fault lines too DaemonFCAug 18 13:16
oiaohmSo out come would be nicely unpredicatable.Aug 18 13:16
MinceRi prefer to remain above human standards.Aug 18 13:16
oiaohmGet them nuke disabled give them metal storm class weapons and wait a few months DaemonFC would really get rid of the population problem without the fall otu.Aug 18 13:17
DaemonFCas horrible as Pakistan is, at least they have a government that doesn't like the Taliban and probably isn't crazy enough to piss off the neighbors beyond rhetoricAug 18 13:18
oiaohmPakistan is internaly unstable.Aug 18 13:19
DaemonFCif there is a war I'm totally hoping India winsAug 18 13:19
schestowitz Google Caffeine: What it really is (Hype) 18 13:19
schestowitzDaemonFC: no-one would win, they have nuclear weaponsAug 18 13:19
schestowitzNuclear wintersAug 18 13:19
schestowitzYou could lose half a billion of people Aug 18 13:19
DaemonFCthere's the possibility of neither one of them really having the stomach to go nuclearAug 18 13:19
schestowitzStarvationAug 18 13:20
DaemonFCthere's a possibility for conventional warAug 18 13:20
schestowitzDaemonFC: it's the apocalyptic ones that are scaryAug 18 13:20
schestowitz"Let's nuke the place up, we go to heaven anyway'Aug 18 13:20
oiaohmNukes have reduced wars.Aug 18 13:20
DaemonFCyeah, which is why I said Pakistan's government at least isn't the Taliban, or IranAug 18 13:20
oiaohmNukes are one of our major causes of population growth.Aug 18 13:21
schestowitz Study: hypePhone is a detriment to carriers 18 13:21
schestowitzoiaohm: that's insaneAug 18 13:21
DaemonFCbecause you can't have a war without the threat of nuclear warAug 18 13:21
schestowitzAnd IBM says software patents helped FOSSAug 18 13:21
DaemonFCunless you go kick someone's ass and nobody really did like themAug 18 13:21
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:21
DaemonFCand they aren't advanced enough to stop youAug 18 13:22
DaemonFCkind of takes all the fun out of itAug 18 13:22
schestowitzPopulation growth is sometimes motivated by need for troopsAug 18 13:22
schestowitzNukes reduce need for troopsAug 18 13:22
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DaemonFCright, if the enemy outnumbers us 10 to 1, we nuke each other, everybody dies, so they don't invade us to begin withAug 18 13:23
DaemonFCI understand the ideaAug 18 13:23
MinceRwell, now it's motivated by fundamentalism and nationalismAug 18 13:23
DaemonFCthe RussiansAug 18 13:24
DaemonFCwhat was that crazy ex-KGB guys name?Aug 18 13:24
MinceRputin?Aug 18 13:24
DaemonFCthe one that said America would split into six countries cause of gay people?Aug 18 13:24
MinceRthen again, who isn't ex-kgb there?Aug 18 13:24
DaemonFClike there aren't any of them in Russia....Aug 18 13:24
oiaohmThink of all the wars we had pre nukes schestowitz.Aug 18 13:24
DaemonFCuh huhAug 18 13:24
DaemonFCit's the FSB now, new name, same friendly serviceAug 18 13:25
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:25
DaemonFCMexico is the most corrupt place on this continent, I remember joking about the hotel I stayed atAug 18 13:26
DaemonFC"The rooms are comfortable, the staff is friendly, and the food is delicious"Aug 18 13:27
*amarsh04__ ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 18 13:27
DaemonFCguy I was talking to "So the rooms are roach infested, the food will make you sick, and the staff will knife you in the back"Aug 18 13:27
schestowitzWow. 18 13:27
DaemonFCyeah, pretty muchAug 18 13:27
schestowitz"”Did I mention to you that after the layoffs, people have been resigning right and left? Always the same story, going to do something else, not sure what, but something else. Two weeks notice, see ya."Aug 18 13:27
schestowitzMicrosoft exodusAug 18 13:27
schestowitzoiaohm: ww1, ww2 (had nukes in it already), and....?Aug 18 13:28
schestowitzYou'd have to go well back in the 19th century for large warsAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCno, what big companies do is call your about half your vacation times "personal time" because then they don't have to pay it out if you leaveAug 18 13:29
schestowitzNone of the same scaleAug 18 13:29
DaemonFClaw says they owe you vacation pay but not sick or personal timeAug 18 13:29
schestowitzThe cycle says one in about 50 yearsAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCso make sure you call in sick or use up all your paid time off that isn't "vacation" before you leaveAug 18 13:29
DaemonFCmost of the wars of the last 50 years were proxy warsAug 18 13:30
DaemonFCthe US and the Soviet Union did not want to fight each other, so we armed and trained third partiesAug 18 13:30
DaemonFC:DAug 18 13:30
DaemonFCthat way we could have our war without having to nuke each otherAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCthe Soviets would pass out cash and AK-47s to just about any country that said they were communistsAug 18 13:31
DaemonFCdoesn't sound like such a bad deal, right?Aug 18 13:32
schestowitzThe X.Org 7.5 Release Day, But With No Release < >Aug 18 13:33
DaemonFCactually, about 15% of the nuclear power in the United States comes from dismantled Russian nuclear warheadsAug 18 13:33
DaemonFCthey get to save face, we dismantle all the nukes they can't afford to maintain, and there's one less of them threatening the worldAug 18 13:34
DaemonFCand more "clean" electricity hereAug 18 13:34
DaemonFCinstead of being able to destroy the world 50 times over, we can now only destroy it 40 times overAug 18 13:35
DaemonFCI sleep better at night :DAug 18 13:35
MinceR:DAug 18 13:35
schestowitzWhat's *this* about. "Zend Technologies has announced the latest version of its open-source framework for PHP, offering improved support for Microsoft and Novell environments. The changes are part of what Zend called m... " Video seems unrelatedAug 18 13:35
schestowitzNope, DaemonFC Aug 18 13:36
schestowitzThe Russian dismantled *their* weaponsAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCthey don't dismantle anyhtingAug 18 13:36
schestowitzIt took a while for for US to reciprocateAug 18 13:36
schestowitzDaemonFC: they bury itAug 18 13:36
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schestowitzArsenal undergroundAug 18 13:36
DaemonFCthey scuttle nuclear subs that they can no longer maintain and you have a nuclear reactor at the bottom of the oceanAug 18 13:36
schestowitzJust takes longer to recommissionAug 18 13:37
MinceRalso known as "missile silo"? :>Aug 18 13:37
DaemonFCthat's how they dispose of their wasteAug 18 13:37
MinceR(re "arsenal underground")Aug 18 13:37
DaemonFCthe Russians are a very depressing peopleAug 18 13:37
DaemonFCthey really areAug 18 13:37
schestowitzAre you Russian then?Aug 18 13:37
DaemonFCnopeAug 18 13:37
DaemonFCjust lucky I guessAug 18 13:38
schestowitzCause you're provoking a lotAug 18 13:38
schestowitzThat would be insulting to RussiaAug 18 13:38
MinceRwell, that's what trolls doAug 18 13:38
schestowitzMy friends from there are not trolls, unlike youAug 18 13:38
schestowitzWhich implies Indiana folks are an issueAug 18 13:38
DaemonFCdepends on what partsAug 18 13:39
MinceRi doubt this issue is related to locationAug 18 13:39
MinceRunless we forget to factor internet penetration out of our data :>Aug 18 13:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Eurovision: SRS BUZNESS (HT @glynmoody)Aug 18 13:39
MinceR(and possibly other factors, language for example)Aug 18 13:40
DaemonFCEnglish, Bad English, and some colorful Spanish euphemisms for certain situationsAug 18 13:40
DaemonFCevery winter without fail there's at least one Mexican family (of 50) living in an efficiency apartment, that manages to torch the building by heating it with the stoveAug 18 13:42
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MinceRat least that family doesn't come here to trollAug 18 13:44
schestowitzANd to insult populationsAug 18 13:44
MinceRso they aren't any worse than you after all :>Aug 18 13:44
schestowitzNotice that the demon does this all the timeAug 18 13:44
schestowitzInsulting Muslim, Russians, Mexicans, x-iansAug 18 13:45
MinceRcouldn't help noticingAug 18 13:45
schestowitzAlienating everyoneAug 18 13:45
schestowitzExcept the gayAug 18 13:45
DaemonFCcomes from dealing with themAug 18 13:45
DaemonFCsociety rewards cheaters and lawbreakersAug 18 13:45
MinceRno, it comes from your rampant nationalismAug 18 13:45
schestowitz"USA"-banded tshirtAug 18 13:45
schestowitzI saw thatAug 18 13:45
schestowitz*brandedAug 18 13:46
MinceRsomehow you've bought the propaganda that usians are better than everyone elseAug 18 13:46
DaemonFCthey thrive here because they break the law and mooch off the social welfare systemAug 18 13:46
schestowitzThrive?Aug 18 13:46
schestowitzIn the US/Aug 18 13:46
MinceR(which is ridiculous, considering that usians are mostly a mix of people from europe)Aug 18 13:46
DaemonFCyeah, nobody ever does anything about themAug 18 13:46
schestowitzEducation system and health care has lots of room for improvement.Aug 18 13:46
DaemonFCeven when they commit feloniesAug 18 13:46
MinceRwell, didn't you know the usa has such an extensive social welfare system to mooch off? :>Aug 18 13:46
schestowitzAmerican intellectuals talk about how over half their students comes from abroad, esp. in the sciencesAug 18 13:47
schestowitzAnd they too may no longer comeAug 18 13:47
MinceRbest place to do so, really!Aug 18 13:47
schestowitzDaemonFC: same in the UKAug 18 13:47
MinceRwell, they'll scare off the scientistsAug 18 13:47
schestowitzIt's not a localised problemAug 18 13:47
DaemonFCyeah, well, that's not really the sample that represents the wholeAug 18 13:47
schestowitzYou're just seeing parts of them that affect youAug 18 13:47
MinceRafter burning some of them in the name of "the Lord"Aug 18 13:47
DaemonFCmost of them are like a plague of locustsAug 18 13:47
schestowitzLocusts are OKAug 18 13:48
schestowitzThey don't exterminate the earthAug 18 13:48
MinceRthat's an insult to locustsAug 18 13:48
DaemonFCthey move in, destroy everything, and then move onAug 18 13:48
schestowitzNoeAug 18 13:48
schestowitzThere's regulation terms in natureAug 18 13:48
MinceRlocusts aren't powerful enough to really destroy everythingAug 18 13:48
MinceRhumans areAug 18 13:48
schestowitzAnimals that feed on locust will thriveAug 18 13:48
schestowitzHumans can break equilibriums because they exceed their evolution's capacityAug 18 13:49
schestowitzMortality rate, age, medicine, electric power, etc.Aug 18 13:49
DaemonFCyes, in nature there is symmetry, that's why I don't think humans are a natural thingAug 18 13:49
schestowitzHumans have been here for 150k yearsAug 18 13:49
schestowitzThat's a tiny fraction of the Earth's ageAug 18 13:49
schestowitzDinosaurs are about 150 million years oldAug 18 13:49
schestowitzThat's 1000 times the duration humans have been hereAug 18 13:50
MinceRincluding the bird-only part? :>Aug 18 13:50
schestowitzIncluding former incarnations of humansAug 18 13:50
oiaohm150 million years of Dinosaurs are pre bird MinceRAug 18 13:50
schestowitzHumans kill things that not only feed onAug 18 13:50
DaemonFChumans arem ore of an exotic invaderAug 18 13:50
schestowitzLike treesAug 18 13:50
DaemonFC*are moreAug 18 13:50
MinceRicAug 18 13:50
schestowitzFor furniture and heatAug 18 13:50
MinceRhumans are a product of nature thoughAug 18 13:51
oiaohmHumans are teraformers.Aug 18 13:51
DaemonFCMinceR: UnfortunatelyAug 18 13:51
schestowitzOther animals don't harm what they don't consume for the biological/nutritional valueAug 18 13:51
oiaohmWe are way different to most other creatures.Aug 18 13:51
DaemonFCbelligerent designAug 18 13:51
DaemonFCthat must explain it allAug 18 13:51
MinceRnahAug 18 13:51
MinceRjust archetypal evilAug 18 13:52
schestowitzoiaohm: they grew wings when falling from trees. They could glideAug 18 13:52
schestowitzThen flyAug 18 13:52
schestowitzHave we extincted all glider spicies yet/Aug 18 13:52
schestowitz*speciesAug 18 13:52
schestowitzDaemonFC: also believe we're in the centre of the univAug 18 13:52
schestowitzNatural choiceAug 18 13:53
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schestowitzGod made in our own image or we in his/theirsAug 18 13:53
schestowitzSun moves around us just for are benefitrAug 18 13:53
MinceRman made god in his own image.Aug 18 13:53
DaemonFCwell, when we throw off the balance of nature far enough and cause the inevitable cascade of die-offs ending of course with ourselves, then the planey may have a chance to do betterAug 18 13:53
DaemonFCuntil then, it's kind of stuck with usAug 18 13:53
MinceRwell, gods.Aug 18 13:53
schestowitzAnd the Sun being just a tiny lamp and stars not being suns but something to guide us sacred humans at nightAug 18 13:53
DaemonFC*planetAug 18 13:53
MinceRDaemonFC: it isn't so simple, we have the capacity to destroy the biosphereAug 18 13:54
DaemonFCsomething may be able to evolve in the toxic hell we leave behindAug 18 13:54
DaemonFC:PAug 18 13:54
schestowitzTHe Africans treat animals like part of their own environmentAug 18 13:54
schestowitzSame with the native IndiansAug 18 13:54
schestowitzWe treat them like food while they are aliveAug 18 13:54
schestowitz"They were created _For Us_"Aug 18 13:54
MinceRif something lives in it. otherwise it's 'start over from amino acids and the like'Aug 18 13:54
schestowitzBy "God"... whom we created to look like us! :-)Aug 18 13:55
MinceRwhich might not happen again hereAug 18 13:55
schestowitzWHy do you slaughter this animal? Cause God said I can, of course !! :-)Aug 18 13:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: Eating a hamburger is not something I'd feel particularly bad aboutAug 18 13:55
oiaohmWe could aways turn earth into like mars if we screw up bad enough.Aug 18 13:55
oiaohmOr venusAug 18 13:55
schestowitzDoes God eat?Aug 18 13:55
schestowitzHis he a vegan?Aug 18 13:55
schestowitzOr....Aug 18 13:55
schestowitzWhy did he create the uni?Aug 18 13:55
schestowitzUniverse for amusement/Aug 18 13:55
schestowitzHow many universes?Aug 18 13:56
DaemonFCWhatever the case may be, humans are omnivorousAug 18 13:56
schestowitzWhy just one?Aug 18 13:56
DaemonFCthese PETA whackos really piss me offAug 18 13:56
schestowitzAnd if we don't know for certain where the univ comes from, then why create another level of complexity?Aug 18 13:56
schestowitzWho created God?Aug 18 13:56
schestowitzIf the question is unanswerable...Aug 18 13:56
schestowitzWhy not save a step/Aug 18 13:56
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schestowitzAnd ask where the universe came fromAug 18 13:56
schestowitzWhich may in itself be an unanswerable question (fingers crossed for LHC)Aug 18 13:57
schestowitzDoes the universe have 7 days?Aug 18 13:57
schestowitzAnd if so, what are cycles defined by?Aug 18 13:57
*DaemonFC is hoping it opens a black hole or really is the stargate to hell or something else that's really coolAug 18 13:57
schestowitzTo us, time is derived from circulation of EarthAug 18 13:57
DaemonFCI love conspiracy theoristsAug 18 13:57
schestowitzDivide by 24, then 60, and 60 againAug 18 13:57
schestowitzIn the universe there is no yardstickAug 18 13:58
schestowitzIt's expandingAug 18 13:58
schestowitzThere may be invisible dimensionsAug 18 13:58
schestowitzDaemonFC: black holes are nothing too mysteriousAug 18 13:58
schestowitzThey just suck in lightAug 18 13:58
oiaohmWhat if time and space are just a joke.Aug 18 13:58
schestowitzAt 1 G we humans are OKAug 18 13:58
schestowitzAt 2 or 3 G we're tied to the groundAug 18 13:58
oiaohmAnd everythign we can see out in space is just us at a different time.Aug 18 13:59
schestowitzAt 1000G, trees flattedAug 18 13:59
schestowitzand at some stage rocks will be crushed tooAug 18 13:59
schestowitzAt over 100,000 or so even light gets trappedAug 18 13:59
schestowitzSo the question is then down to quanta-mechanics to answer questions like what happens to mass that got sucked in onto itselfAug 18 13:59
DaemonFCor we could be a type 13 planet and be reduced to the size of a pea by scientists trying to determine the mass of the Higgs-Boson particleAug 18 14:00
DaemonFC(Lexx)Aug 18 14:00
schestowitzWe as humans don't understand these things because we're simple 3-d creativesAug 18 14:00
oiaohm2 or 3 G depends on the human 5 G would be extreamally rare if someone is strong enough to lift 5 times there weight.Aug 18 14:00
schestowitz*creaturesAug 18 14:00
schestowitzoiaohm: not reallyAug 18 14:01
schestowitzLifting would be a stretchAug 18 14:01
schestowitzYou can hardly standAug 18 14:01
schestowitzIt's like squatting twice your bodyweightAug 18 14:01
schestowitzYay. 18 14:01
schestowitzTake that LinusAug 18 14:02
MinceR:)Aug 18 14:02
schestowitzGNU powa 18 14:02
schestowitz'In 2008 and early 2009, Ameren paid Elmendorf Strategies $120,000 to lobby on "energy issues, global warming and greenhouse gas legislation, energy taxes."' 18 14:06
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schestowitzbblAug 18 14:14
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MinceR 18 14:37
MinceR 18 14:40
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oiaohmschestowitz: when back backing at times I have carried over my body weight.   So between 2G to 3G I can walk.Aug 18 14:56
oiaohm5 for sure I would be screwed.  I am not the strongest person.  Its part method.  schestowitz.Aug 18 14:56
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Will_Here's a link for schestowitz:Aug 18 14:58
Will_ 18 14:58
MinceRwell, 2g means carrying yourself normally + 1x your body weight, mounted in probably the most convenient way possible :)Aug 18 14:58
Will_That link is from today, too.  After 4 motherboard redesigns.Aug 18 15:00
oiaohm+ 1x your body weight placing you feat stable is critical.Aug 18 15:00
MinceRnow that's original MICROS~1 quality hardware. :>Aug 18 15:01
Will_ 18 15:03
Will_What I don't get is why people keep buying them.  If last 6 went RROD on you within a few months, why do you think your chances will be better on the next one?Aug 18 15:04
Will_s/If last/If the last/Aug 18 15:05
Will_Not to mention that these days, unless the game was developed by a Microsoft-owned studio, "Exclusively for Xbox 360" translates to "Wait about a year and it will be on the PS3 in a Special Edition version with extra content."Aug 18 15:07
MinceR 18 15:12
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oiaohmWill_: Basically 1 in about 7 xbox 360's appear to work so far.Aug 18 15:27
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Will_And even if it works, it still has the chance of scratching the game discs, rendering them permanently unplayable.Aug 18 15:33
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Omar87HiAug 18 15:40
Omar87Is it true that Hotmail uses RedHat servers?Aug 18 15:40
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i think we should rename it "Microsoft Moonshine"Aug 18 16:05
cubezzzzaurus is interesting but I can see why some folks didn't like itAug 18 16:16
cubezzzgreat for linux geeks thoughAug 18 16:16
schestowitzMinceR: I don't trust technologizerAug 18 16:43
schestowitzXBox is improvingAug 18 16:45
schestowitzIt was reportedly 66%Aug 18 16:45
schestowitzThey even fired an employee who revealed itAug 18 16:45
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Omar87Is it true that Hotmail uses RedHat servers?Aug 18 16:52
schestowitzNopeAug 18 16:52
schestowitzIt might be behind Akamai, which I doubtAug 18 16:52
schestowitzAkamai probbaly uses a customised LinuxAug 18 16:52
schestowitzThey are patent aggressors leeching off LinuxAug 18 16:53
cubezzzwasn't zune also a lemon?Aug 18 16:53
cubezzzwhen does microsoft ever make anything decentAug 18 16:53
schestowitzYesAug 18 16:55
schestowitzLet me show you s/tAug 18 16:55
schestowitzNew: 18 16:56
schestowitzOops.Aug 18 16:56
schestowitz 18 16:57
neighborleehmmAug 18 16:57
schestowitzDual monitors in Gentoo 18 16:58
schestowitzTortureAug 18 16:58
neighborleemy friend has a zune, not sure its by choice, as much as only thing at the time she could getAug 18 16:58
neighborleelolAug 18 16:58
schestowitzI haven't had to edit files in agesAug 18 16:58
neighborleedittoAug 18 16:58
schestowitzneighborlee: they should put a warning on itAug 18 16:58
neighborleecant say I miss itAug 18 16:58
schestowitzSoemthing like "may contain squirting" (that what Microsoft call it)Aug 18 16:58
neighborleesounds weird ;)Aug 18 16:59
neighborleereally weirdAug 18 16:59
schestowitzIn 2003 I spent over  3 hours (or more!) writing a good xorg file for me (dual head in SuSE)Aug 18 16:59
neighborleeCNET-style gushing review of the me-too player < lolAug 18 17:01
schestowitzJeremy Zawodny still writes for Linux Mag: 18 17:01
MinceRwell, m$ succeeded atAug 18 17:01
schestowitzCNET goes both waysAug 18 17:01
schestowitzApple and MicrosoftAug 18 17:01
MinceRcrApple made a crap PMP, then m$ made a crap PMPAug 18 17:01
schestowitzBoth pay it a lot, but Paul Allen was the big VC back in the daysAug 18 17:01
MinceRMission "Me Too" Accomplished.Aug 18 17:02
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schestowitzmPhoneAug 18 17:02
MinceRdon't get me started on winblows mobile.Aug 18 17:02
schestowitzYou praise itAug 18 17:02
Xarver:PAug 18 17:02
*schestowitz spitsAug 18 17:02
MinceRnot anymoreAug 18 17:02
schestowitz:-pAug 18 17:02
schestowitzWhy?Aug 18 17:03
schestowitzNo good clockign anymore?Aug 18 17:03
MinceRthere were some fundamental ideas they got right that their competition didn'tAug 18 17:03
XarverIt's windows :PAug 18 17:03
MinceRbut the execution sucks a lotAug 18 17:03
schestowitzAlarm clocks... heh. I;'ve had the same one for 8 yearsAug 18 17:03
schestowitzClock-Radio from TECAug 18 17:03
MinceRsure, you can multitask and run your own stuff on itAug 18 17:03
Xarver>.>Aug 18 17:03
XarverI use my phone as an alarm clockAug 18 17:03
MinceRbut it's useless if the PIM functionality failsAug 18 17:03
schestowitzI have another that my grandma bought me 12 years ago. Still works... quite sophisticated without stupid phone around it that needs rechargingAug 18 17:04
MinceRXarver: i try to, too. nowadays i set two alarms (the built-in and StopTime) and at least one worksAug 18 17:04
MinceRi had to remove GAlarm thoughAug 18 17:04
Xarverwho's the owner of boycottnovell. ( schestowitz?)Aug 18 17:04
schestowitzPeople use their phone and not PCsAug 18 17:04
schestowitzYou otherwise need to tell the boss you're late cause you woke up to a BSoDAug 18 17:04
schestowitzXarver: do whoisAug 18 17:04
MinceRit's slow and unreliable as a phone, its timekeeping sucks, the alarm is unreliable, the tethering is unreliableAug 18 17:05
MinceRboots take foreverAug 18 17:05
Xarvernothing :PAug 18 17:05
MinceRand about half the time most Today Screen applets don't appearAug 18 17:05
schestowitzMy Tungsten turns 5 in Oct.Aug 18 17:07
schestowitzI remember this cause it's the same time I spent too much time on it rather than my g/fAug 18 17:08
schestowitzI left her a month later (not cause of the Palm though :-p )Aug 18 17:08
MinceRmy tungsten e2 died 13 months after purchaseAug 18 17:09
schestowitzomg!ubuntu 18 17:09
MinceRand before that, i could experience the colossal failure that is palm os 5Aug 18 17:09
schestowitzThey advocate the only worthy app that's Mono encumberedAug 18 17:09
MinceRwhere memory management means "Oops, you've run out of memory. Click here to reset."Aug 18 17:09
MinceRschestowitz: gnome-do? :>Aug 18 17:09
schestowitzneighborlee: it has been quiet on the Mono front for a whileAug 18 17:10
schestowitzIt's good that wayAug 18 17:10
schestowitzMinceR: I know you use itAug 18 17:10
neighborleelolAug 18 17:10
MinceRnot at the momentAug 18 17:10
MinceRdebian failed to install the pluginsAug 18 17:10
schestowitzWe now know the new turf anyway, and they get no publicityAug 18 17:10
neighborleeI meant to ask ,,anymore on the news about this new MS 'promise' thing ..Aug 18 17:10
MinceRor rather, the official gnome-do package looks for the plugins in one place and the official plugins package puts them in anotherAug 18 17:10
schestowitzNew turf = patent trap, FSF disapproves, Fedora cleans up, gnote replaces tomboy..Aug 18 17:10
MinceRnot what i expected after all the debian praise i've heard.Aug 18 17:11
schestowitzneighborlee: no news. And that's good news.Aug 18 17:11
neighborleeschestowitz, nice,and thx for infoAug 18 17:11
neighborleeschestowitz, yeah..rms weighting in REALLY helpedAug 18 17:11
schestowitzMicrosoft, in general, will not do anything further, despite the FSF asking them toAug 18 17:11
neighborleeweighingAug 18 17:11
neighborleeo_0Aug 18 17:11
schestowitzThe FSF asked them to  expand the promise as suitableAug 18 17:11
schestowitzMicrosoft stayed mumAug 18 17:11
neighborleehmAug 18 17:11
schestowitzConpiracion [sic] of silenceAug 18 17:12
MinceRi can't really tell which of palm os 5 and winmo 5 sucks harderAug 18 17:12
schestowitzfspot killah: 18 17:13
schestowitz(new BTW)Aug 18 17:13
neighborleeI hear digikam referred to aLOT yes re fspotAug 18 17:13
Xarverpalm os is linux based ;)Aug 18 17:13
schestowitzMinceR: at least palm worksAug 18 17:13
MinceRdigiKam isn't that new afaik :>Aug 18 17:13
schestowitzAnd I can use it on lInux with jpilotAug 18 17:13
MinceRXarver: nope. ALP is linux-based.Aug 18 17:13
XarverDXAug 18 17:13
MinceRschestowitz: i wouldn't go that far.Aug 18 17:13
schestowitzDoes WinMob connect well by now?Aug 18 17:13
MinceRnot reallyAug 18 17:13
schestowitzIIRC Ubuntu could do some and Mandriva (Adam) worked on itAug 18 17:13
schestowitzBut I didn't know if they use Evolution to integrateAug 18 17:14
schestowitzgpilot suckedAug 18 17:14
schestowitzI had to just edit memos with a TEXT EDITORAug 18 17:14
MinceRXarver: palm os 5 is based on some crappy proprietary kernel palmsource licensed from someone elseAug 18 17:14
Xarver:(Aug 18 17:14
MinceRXarver: and they haven't licensed it for multitaskingAug 18 17:14
schestowitzKPilot was better, but I can't make it work on hereAug 18 17:14
MinceRso the kernel could do multitasking, but your apps can't.Aug 18 17:14
XarverWow....Aug 18 17:14
schestowitzWith KPilot it worked in KalendarAug 18 17:14
schestowitzAnd I could export as icalAug 18 17:14
MinceRpalm os 5 was what made me try winmo 5.Aug 18 17:15
schestowitzMinceR: it does pseudo-multiraskingAug 18 17:15
schestowitzSaving statesAug 18 17:15
schestowitzAnd playing audio in bgAug 18 17:15
MinceRschestowitz: which is useless crap.Aug 18 17:15
MinceRand playing audio is interrupt-handler hack.Aug 18 17:15
schestowitzI know, BUT..Aug 18 17:15
schestowitzTHis is mobileAug 18 17:15
schestowitzTHe notion of multitasking on small device is sillyAug 18 17:15
MinceRnot something that's acceptable from an OS someone is trying to sell in the 3rd millennium.Aug 18 17:15
schestowitzNot much space to do stuff that's complex anywayAug 18 17:15
MinceRno, it isn't silly at allAug 18 17:15
schestowitzNo peripheral, eitherAug 18 17:16
MinceRtry viewing a pdf in one app and taking notes in anotherAug 18 17:16
schestowitzI can stil copy and paste and move between apps quicklyAug 18 17:16
MinceRin palm os 5, that's a colossal wait-fest.Aug 18 17:16
schestowitzMinceR: why?Aug 18 17:16
MinceRsymbian os and winmo both do multitaskingAug 18 17:16
schestowitzDo you take notes on PDFs?Aug 18 17:16
schestowitzI just used them to read lecture notesAug 18 17:16
schestowitzIn 2002/3Aug 18 17:16
MinceRschestowitz: because they'll restore their state -- the pdf viewer will render the page againAug 18 17:16
schestowitzOn my Palm M130Aug 18 17:16
MinceReach time you "switch" to itAug 18 17:16
MinceRand that can take minutesAug 18 17:17
schestowitzMinceR: why take notesAug 18 17:17
schestowitzIt's a PDAAug 18 17:17
MinceRbecause i was on a lecture?Aug 18 17:17
schestowitzWanna get work done? Get a real PC.Aug 18 17:17
MinceRbecause PDAs are for taking notes?Aug 18 17:17
MinceRwell, eventually i did get a real pcAug 18 17:17
schestowitzMinceR: but a second PDA! :-)Aug 18 17:17
schestowitz*BuyAug 18 17:17
MinceRbut getting a real pda/phone solved the situation tooAug 18 17:17
MinceRi have a better ideaAug 18 17:17
MinceRdon't buy palm os 5Aug 18 17:17
XarverXDAug 18 17:18
schestowitzOne for PDFs and one for notesAug 18 17:18
MinceRbtw, that pda had hardware that was more powerful than my first pcAug 18 17:18
MinceRand my first pc did multitasking too.Aug 18 17:18
schestowitzLike VIsta 7 and XPAug 18 17:18
schestowitzIt's great, isn't it?Aug 18 17:18
schestowitzIt runs not 1 OS, but TWO.... which are, well.... both WindowsAug 18 17:18
schestowitzI hear Fedora 12 will Run Fedora 9 too ... and Linux 2.4Aug 18 17:19
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yuhongWell, personally I run a dual-boot with Vista and Ubuntu and don't plan on upgrading to 7 anytime soon.Aug 18 17:21
schestowitz Are computers addictive? 18 17:22
schestowitzyuhong: yeah, Ubuntu 7 is oldAug 18 17:22
schestowitzWait until 10Aug 18 17:22
yuhongI am talking about Windows 7, not Ubuntu.Aug 18 17:23
schestowitzNice boot screen. "Improving pxe boot menus" 18 17:23
schestowitzyuhong: I know. It's a joke. Laugh :-)Aug 18 17:23
yuhongBut personally with Ubuntu I am looking forward to the 9.10 release.Aug 18 17:24
XarverI'm looking forward to Mandriva 2010Aug 18 17:24
schestowitzYeah, 2010 has 4.3Aug 18 17:24
schestowitzI'm still on 2008, which is supportedAug 18 17:25
schestowitzReceiving patches and allAug 18 17:25
schestowitzjono will be happy to know that I have Ubuntu on all of my 3 PCsAug 18 17:25
Xarverthat's right, you're too lazy to upgrade :DAug 18 17:25
schestowitzActually, one has Kubuntu, not UbuntuAug 18 17:26
schestowitzXarver: well, it works. Why change?Aug 18 17:26
XarverMore updated things :)Aug 18 17:26
Xarver:3Aug 18 17:26
schestowitzWe need to support these guys. 18 17:26
XarverAnd I upgraded KDE4.2 to KDE4.3 on this :)Aug 18 17:26
schestowitzNot safeAug 18 17:26
schestowitzBetter to stick with what's prepackagedAug 18 17:27
neighborlee#kde recommended 4.3 to me so maybe notAug 18 17:27
XarverMeh it works for me and it's already done >.>Aug 18 17:27
schestowitzANd probably a clean install when moving from kde3 to kde4, based on what Lehrbaum DeviceGuru wroteAug 18 17:27
XarverKDE4.3 fixes THOUSANDS of bugs :)Aug 18 17:27
neighborleeand if my expereince with 4.2.2 in fedora is any proof...he's right.Aug 18 17:27
schestowitzHe left KDE after a long time with itAug 18 17:27
schestowitzSame with SJVN and LinusAug 18 17:27
schestowitzKDE people need to covert them backAug 18 17:28
neighborleewhat is linus using now LOLAug 18 17:28
schestowitzGNOMEAug 18 17:28
XarverKDEAug 18 17:28
Xarver:PAug 18 17:28
XarverIt's personal preferenceAug 18 17:28
neighborleeschestowitz, oh brotherAug 18 17:28
schestowitzknuth just uses fvwm or somehtingAug 18 17:28
XarverKDE is for the looks :3Aug 18 17:29
neighborleeschestowitz, if true it would seem linus can't make up his mind...Aug 18 17:29
neighborleehehAug 18 17:29
schestowitzYeah, old news thoughAug 18 17:29
neighborlee:)Aug 18 17:29
XarverKDE roxAug 18 17:29
schestowitzLook up the historical importance of itAug 18 17:29
Xarver:PAug 18 17:29
neighborleewell I dont like gnome menu layout..I prefer ONE menu ;)(Aug 18 17:29
neighborlee3 is overkilll to meAug 18 17:29
schestowitzAuto-hideAug 18 17:29
schestowitzIt's GNUAug 18 17:30
neighborleedont like that featureAug 18 17:30
schestowitzYou control everythingAug 18 17:30
neighborleethankfiulll yesAug 18 17:30
schestowitzOr move to something like icevm and blackbox or fluxboxAug 18 17:30
neighborleethankfullyAug 18 17:30
schestowitz*wmAug 18 17:30
neighborleecant stand any of those wm'sAug 18 17:30
yuhongBTW, Vista was preloaded at the factory, with a recovery disc shipped with the system.Aug 18 17:30
XarverI don't like auto-hide anywayAug 18 17:30
neighborleewell I do kidna like fluxbox...Aug 18 17:30
neighborleethe othres just seem so 50'sAug 18 17:30
neighborlee....othersAug 18 17:30
schestowitzIt's about applicationsAug 18 17:30
MinceRyou can make gnome use 1 menuAug 18 17:30
yuhongI was able to resize the Vista partition and make room for a Linux partition, which is 10 GB BTW.Aug 18 17:31
*MinceR switched DE-s and WM-s all the timeAug 18 17:31
Xarverthe only thing I don't like about KDE4 is how the desktop 2 shows desktop 1 windows in the task managerAug 18 17:31
schestowitzFlip-floppa!Aug 18 17:31
yuhongThat preload had Vista RTM, with Vista SP1 installed later.Aug 18 17:32
neighborleeschestowitz, has linus ever weighed in on mono ?Aug 18 17:32
MinceR(the gnome panel has 2 menu applets, one of them is that 3-menu thing, the other is a normal-looking button with one menu containing everything popping up if you click)Aug 18 17:32
XarverMONO DIEAug 18 17:32
MinceRSTEREO DICEAug 18 17:32
Xarver:PAug 18 17:32
schestowitzExploring Ubuntu Recovery Mode 18 17:32
schestowitzneighborlee: he probably knows too little about itAug 18 17:33
neighborleeyeahAug 18 17:33
MinceRi think the DE/WM i've used the most so far is KDEAug 18 17:33
MinceR(within that, kde3)Aug 18 17:33
schestowitzSeven things Windows 7 can learn from Linux 18 17:34
schestowitzMinceR: use kde[4.]3Aug 18 17:34
schestowitzIt's the same as kde3Aug 18 17:34
MinceRi'll give it a try laterAug 18 17:34
schestowitzwith a 4 stuck in the middlkeAug 18 17:34
schestowitzVista 7 is like Vista with "Mojave" replaced by a digitAug 18 17:35
schestowitz UbuntuOne: Sync Or Sink? 18 17:36
schestowitz 18 17:36
yuhongI don't think so. But yes, I still do remember Windows "Mojave".Aug 18 17:36
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schestowitzIf only it existedAug 18 17:40
schestowitzIt was GREAT proof that perception means a lot, so people can be persuaded that VIsta 7 is radically different from VIsta, which it ain'tAug 18 17:40
schestowitzYou printer doesn't work in VIsta? Well, it won't work in VIsta 7, eitherAug 18 17:41
schestowitzThis is silly when they pressure kids: ( Students battle for Bafta award)Aug 18 17:49
schestowitz Blackberry 'fastest-growing firm' < > Still going... unlike iPhone they have some substance tooAug 18 17:49
schestowitzNice!! Using multiple window managers with nested Xserver < >Aug 18 17:52
schestowitz 18 17:56
MinceRgetting older? oh no! i must stop gaming immediately!Aug 18 17:58
MinceRi didn't know aging was so easy to stop.Aug 18 17:59
schestowitzMost gamers fat and miserable, finds study < >Aug 18 18:00
schestowitzStudy might prove opposite thingAug 18 18:00
schestowitzGaming does not make one fatAug 18 18:00
schestowitz.It couldAug 18 18:01
schestowitzBut it's the other way around sometimesAug 18 18:01
schestowitzSame with other so-called studieAug 18 18:01
schestowitzMake a nice headline for a paper and then look for something to substantiate it in the paper's bodyAug 18 18:01
schestowitzHere we have AstraZenaca funding post-docsAug 18 18:01
schestowitzIdea is for AstraZeneca to want to prove something and then hire someone to just do it.. like analystsAug 18 18:02
schestowitzNot exactly honestAug 18 18:02
schestowitzThat's what happens when even academic research is run by corporate fundsAug 18 18:02
schestowitzVERY serious issue these daysAug 18 18:02
schestowitzTurning professors to the shill-task mentality circleAug 18 18:03
schestowitzZombie plague analysed by Canadian maths prof < > No, not Windows zombies, just zombies.Aug 18 18:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dawkins' website forum hacked to send spam < > I hope it at least does not promote superstition.Aug 18 18:05
neighborleeschestowitz, linus does say he will retry kde..he switched due to inpart a broken 'mouse' :))EEKEEK lolAug 18 18:07
MinceRurl?Aug 18 18:07
neighborlee < right thereAug 18 18:07
neighborlee"  I'll revisit it when I reinstall the next machine which tends to be every six to eight months.   "Aug 18 18:08
neighborleedoor not closed.Aug 18 18:08
MinceRand where does he say the broken mouse thing?Aug 18 18:09
schestowitzDell denies dPhone debut < >Aug 18 18:11
schestowitzneighborlee: REALLY?Aug 18 18:11
schestowitzurl?Aug 18 18:11
neighborlee^^Aug 18 18:11
schestowitzOopsAug 18 18:11
schestowitzbeat me to itAug 18 18:11
neighborleehehAug 18 18:11
schestowitzHehe.Aug 18 18:11
neighborleelolAug 18 18:11
schestowitzI hate when it happensAug 18 18:12
schestowitzEMbarrassingAug 18 18:12
schestowitzMinceR: +1Aug 18 18:12
schestowitzWhere is the mouse story coming from?Aug 18 18:12
schestowitzLinux made a GNOME patch after the whole "GUI nazis" incidentAug 18 18:12
neighborleeright mouse button issue <Aug 18 18:13
schestowitzLinus buys from Apple *Weeps*Aug 18 18:13
neighborleewell and kde4 not working as he expected in fedora..shrug>>Aug 18 18:13
neighborleeha ;))Aug 18 18:13
schestowitzneighborlee: we can all chip in and buy Linus a new mouseAug 18 18:13
neighborleemabye he was using a puck mouse ??Aug 18 18:13
neighborleeLOLAug 18 18:13
schestowitzHeck, I can give him my secondary one if it puts him on KDE4Aug 18 18:13
schestowitzI always keep separate kb and mouse around for backup. I also have a secondary PC or twoAug 18 18:14
neighborlee:)Aug 18 18:14
jonoschestowitz, glad you run Ubuntu :)Aug 18 18:14
schestowitzAnd two Internet connections, so I never miss any IRC interactionAug 18 18:14
schestowitzjono: it saved me from SUSEAug 18 18:14
neighborleewell im not..but hey you gotta get the bro his right to choose <wink>Aug 18 18:14
schestowitzBut I also used 4.10 at workAug 18 18:15
jonoschestowitz, hehAug 18 18:15
schestowitzMCCAug 18 18:15
schestowitzDo you know Owen?Aug 18 18:15
neighborleeyeah I miss mandriva/ake LOLAug 18 18:15
neighborleebut I wont touch their stance on mono with a   9000ft pollAug 18 18:15
schestowitzneighborlee: it would be heavyAug 18 18:16
neighborleeto me mcc is superior on all levels to anything ubuntu hasAug 18 18:16
neighborleehehe indeed ;))Aug 18 18:16
schestowitz[the  9000ft poll]Aug 18 18:16
neighborleeyup :)roflAug 18 18:16
neighborleespace age materials! ;)Aug 18 18:16
schestowitzneighborlee: MCC has not been maintained for over 12 yearsAug 18 18:16
schestowitz*17 evenAug 18 18:16
neighborleeyes sadly they have lost much ground...Aug 18 18:17
neighborleefiring founder was PROB n ot smart.Aug 18 18:17
schestowitzI fixed the entry in Wikipedia on it back in the daysAug 18 18:17
neighborleemaybe fincially necesssary I dont recall..but smart I dunnoAug 18 18:17
schestowitzneighborlee: yeah, Gael and I still correspond sometimes. No word from his new distro in ages.Aug 18 18:17
neighborleeand their releases not stellarAug 18 18:17
neighborleeyup ive noticed thatAug 18 18:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hackers exploiting weak job market 18 18:17
schestowitzUlteo has become some kind of Windows addon in a way, to distinguish itselfAug 18 18:17
schestowitzIt used to be Ubuntu-basedAug 18 18:18
neighborleeeekAug 18 18:18
neighborleehmAug 18 18:18
schestowitzMaybe it is Kubuntu-based now, I have't kept trackAug 18 18:18
schestowitz* ' based' (no dash)Aug 18 18:18
schestowitzneighborlee: MCC was the first distroAug 18 18:19
schestowitzCreated by him: 18 18:19
neighborleewhen I said mcc I meant mandriva control centerAug 18 18:20
neighborleenot sure if its just becuase im used to windows slick way of doing it,,or just that I LIke things in ONE place efficiently organed..or both ;)Aug 18 18:21
schestowitzFor those who actually see ads: Google Tweaks AdSense Fonts for Better Performance < >Aug 18 18:21
neighborleeand no I dont like gnome's conrtrol center<gcc>Aug 18 18:21
schestowitzneighborlee: mcc also means something in matlab (the compiler)Aug 18 18:21
neighborleehmAug 18 18:21
schestowitzgnome's control centre was changed at NovellAug 18 18:22
schestowitzThe layoutAug 18 18:22
schestowitzI haven't paid much attention to KDE, but they made it hierarchical in later versions of 3.xAug 18 18:22
schestowitzOr maybe it was a SUSE thingAug 18 18:22
schestowitzNovell changed the SuSE thingAug 18 18:22
schestowitzYaST was amazing.. maybe still is, but they are more GNOME-oriented in business (SLE*)Aug 18 18:23
schestowitztrmanco: 18 18:24
neighborleeyes I think its a suse thingAug 18 18:24
neighborleeive not used suse in ages..though I did really like their installer, felt it was amount THE bestAug 18 18:24
neighborleethe rest of the OS,,not so much.Aug 18 18:25
neighborleeI never felt it was reliableAug 18 18:25
schestowitzMinceR: Asay no longer promotes FOSS. Just Macs, SAAS (Fog) and COre, which is hybrid under a new name (mixed source): 18 18:26
schestowitzSUSE is release quite oftenAug 18 18:27
schestowitzRed Hat is good for desktops if it's just some business taskAug 18 18:27
schestowitzAlso long-term supportAug 18 18:27
schestowitzRussian departments tested itAug 18 18:27
neighborleeschestowitz, curious if you've had any issues at all with pulseaudio or if its just a few of us unlucky saps ? ;))Aug 18 18:30
schestowitzRarelyAug 18 18:31
schestowitzIf an app crashes badly (hangs, which Amarok might once ina few weeks when handling bad files), then killing it can affect arts and the sound serverAug 18 18:31
schestowitzLike a device not closingAug 18 18:31
schestowitzWindows 98 had this issue tooAug 18 18:32
schestowitzFacebook Faces Civil Lawsuit for Privacy Violations < >Aug 18 18:32
neighborleeIhad horrible issues with it in try to play a sound and the audio slider would go way down and I couldn't hear the sample being played very well at all...friends I know who use ubuntu get rid of itAug 18 18:33
neighborleeso I was curiousAug 18 18:33
neighborleeI mean rid of pulseAug 18 18:33
neighborleebut im willing to see it could just be fedoras use of pulse I dont knowAug 18 18:33
schestowitzWhich version?Aug 18 18:34
neighborleeOR my audio chipAug 18 18:34
neighborleeno clueAug 18 18:34
neighborleeive since had to reinstallAug 18 18:34
neighborleeoh waitAug 18 18:34
neighborleefedora 11 64bitAug 18 18:34
schestowitzAICPA Appeals for Break From Red Flag Rules   < >Aug 18 18:34
schestowitzI rarely use Fedora, so I don't know. I never used it after F10Aug 18 18:35
neighborlee"  You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that if Mono did not exist then there would still be plenty of open source programmes.  " < that seems often missing from debates,,well go figure :)Aug 18 18:37
neighborleefrom our canadianl inux friend ;)Aug 18 18:37
neighborleecanadianAug 18 18:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fry responds to the smears against microblogging: (Pointless babble)Aug 18 18:42 to Become Open Source; Has a Lot to Say About Everyone < >Aug 18 18:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] i'm sure there's something to be said here about "can" versus "should" 18 18:52
trmancohehAug 18 18:53
trmancoschestowitz, thats neatAug 18 18:53
trmancobtw, have you tried Swiftweasel?Aug 18 18:54
trmancoit's better then firefoxAug 18 18:54
trmancoit has level 3 optimization and it's also pgo optimizedAug 18 18:54
schestowitzDell seems to deny this one: 18 18:54
schestowitzSwiftweasel has a shady pastAug 18 18:55
schestowitzGoogle itAug 18 18:55
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schestowitzOpen Source: the Ultimate Insurance Policy 18 18:55
schestowitz"Nambu was quite prepared just to shut down; it only chose open source when it recognised that there was a responsibility to its users to provide some continuity, and that open source was a perfect fit. It enables the software to continue to develop, but only as long as there is interest in doing so. If and when the software truly dies, so will the open source project."Aug 18 18:56
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schestowitzOpen Source Software Growing Faster Than Expected: IDC < > IBM probably pays for this, maybe NovellAug 18 18:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] is it just me, or does the list of startup names on look like a comedy take on web 2.0?Aug 18 18:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #lazyweb need a GNOME temperature app, like ktemperature - just DISPLAY the TEMPERATURE in the SYSTRAYAug 18 19:00
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_goblinhello allAug 18 19:15
_goblinnick _GoblinAug 18 19:15
*_goblin is now known as _GoblinAug 18 19:15
schestowitzHa!Aug 18 19:20
schestowitzSo you real name is nickAug 18 19:20
schestowitzMissing slash exposed you, nick!!Aug 18 19:20
_Goblin:)Aug 18 19:22
_GoblinNick Cotton actuallyAug 18 19:22
_GoblinMums name is Dorothy.....Aug 18 19:22
_GoblinSort of good timing....Eastenders has just started.....Aug 18 19:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Has A LOT to Learn from GNU/Linux 18 19:24
_GoblinSchestowitz: Re: your latest article, Ive had similar referals....when Ive noticed them (or can be bothered) Ive highlighted them on the relevant post.Aug 18 19:26
schestowitz_Goblin: it's still going? *sigh* How many years already? Or decades?Aug 18 19:27
schestowitz_Goblin: there's part 2 coming :-)Aug 18 19:27
schestowitzNext part will show where the money comes fromAug 18 19:27
_Goblinthats one of the reasons Im extra careful about what I allege.Aug 18 19:27
_Goblingolden rule (as I'm sure you will know).....always use "allegedly" and "in my opinion" and you are untouchable.Aug 18 19:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Union Pacific Railroad Moves to GNU/Linux Servers 18 19:28
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Illustration of the Power and Flexibility of Xserver 18 19:30
schestowitz_Goblin: no need when there is press coverageAug 18 19:31
schestowitzIf the press is not correct, the trolls should complain to themAug 18 19:31
*schestowitz gets teaAug 18 19:33
_Goblintrue...although I like the "allegedly" route since if the source turns out to be false then I havent suggested it as fact....Aug 18 19:33
schestowitz_Goblin: trolls tell lies about me allthe time. Trying to set them straight is a waste of timeAug 18 19:33
_Goblinit annoys me though when I see the lies they post about you.Aug 18 19:34
_GoblinThere is no truth in what is said about you by Wintrolls.Aug 18 19:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KMS Page-Flipping Comes to 2.6.32 18 19:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KMS Page-Flipping Comes to 2.6.32 18 19:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] digiKam Works Great and KMyMoney 1.0 is Koming! 18 19:36
schestowitz_Goblin: there are some truths sometimesAug 18 19:37
schestowitzThey mix and matchAug 18 19:37
schestowitzThe secret is for them to make some statements to gain trust and then slip in lies deliberatelyAug 18 19:37
schestowitzLike saying that I use sockpuppets (I never did)Aug 18 19:37
schestowitzOr the whole gay|transsexual big lieAug 18 19:38
schestowitzThere are many other examplesAug 18 19:38
schestowitzThen comes along a Microsoft TE like Wong and cites themAug 18 19:38
schestowitz"Look! Look what 'Linux people' say about Roy" he explains, pointing to Linsux, flatfish and other anti-Linux scumAug 18 19:39
schestowitzThat's why Microsoft needs the vehemently anti-Linux crowdAug 18 19:39
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Multimedia Applications for GNU/Linux in Review 18 19:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GIMP for Beginners as PDF 18 19:44
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CentOS Releases Newsletter for This Month (Back to Work) 18 19:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New GNU/Linux User Compares Fedora 11 and Mandriva 2009.1 18 19:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Amazon Kindle: Linux Good, DRM Very Bad 18 19:57
MinceRschestowitz: so asay is at least honest now?Aug 18 19:58
schestowitzWhere?Aug 18 20:00
schestowitzOh, I get itAug 18 20:00
schestowitzNo posturingAug 18 20:00
schestowitzI was gonna mail him, about s/t else thoughAug 18 20:00
MinceR:)Aug 18 20:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] In Praise of Mobile Linux (Wireless Week) 18 20:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pakistan Computer Association May be Training for GNU/Linux 18 20:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Becomes Free Software , GIMP Chooses GPLv3 18 20:14
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/GPL Software So Good Even Satellite Receivers Must have It 18 20:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Minions and Microsoft-Paid 'Analysts' Like Burton and Gartner Proven Wrong on ODF 18 20:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] XBox 360 About 10 Times More Likely to Die Than Wii 18 20:35
MinceRso far all the stuff i could find about Linus and the right mouse button was a missing configuration option in Metacity, nothing about KDEAug 18 20:36
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EveryBlock Swallowed by Microsoft's Indoctrination Network 18 20:39
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Diablo-D3 18 20:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] MSFT snatches defeat from the jaws of victory: OVER HALF of XBox 360 die! 18 20:44
Diablo-D3I only have one thing to say after thisAug 18 20:44
Diablo-D3AN YOU HEAR ME NOW, BITCH?!Aug 18 20:45
Diablo-D3erAug 18 20:45
Diablo-D3CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW, BITCH?!Aug 18 20:45
Diablo-D3keyboard ate my glory :<Aug 18 20:45
MinceRlolAug 18 20:48
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] It seems you no longer need an invite to use #ubuntuone 18 21:04
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schestowitz (Tesseracts and Madeleine L'Engle)Aug 18 21:22
cubezzzsega genesis was pretty reliable :)Aug 18 21:24
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schestowitz 18 21:44
DaemonFC 18 21:45
DaemonFChehAug 18 21:45
schestowitzomg. Hire this prof. LOL 18 21:45
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schestowitzCould you do us a favour and textify this one? 18 21:51
schestowitz"Ask the partner to give you heads up on customer situations – bribe them!"Aug 18 21:52
schestowitz"Find and Lean on your insider friend, ‘the fox’. Having a trusted MSfriend in the account is critical. Some people (unix Bigots) can think of lots of reasons to not have a MS solution. MS folks may not be the strongest voice but they are true believers (Protect them, make them look good)."Aug 18 21:52
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DaemonFCI'm still wondering why Hormel needs a perception management companyAug 18 21:58
DaemonFCeveryone knows SPAM isn't real food and that it causes explosive diarrhea and has no nutritional valueAug 18 21:58
DaemonFC:PAug 18 21:58
MinceRjust like everyone knows windows isn't a real operating system and causes severe performance loss and has severe vulnerabilitiesAug 18 21:59
DaemonFCAs for GM, it's nice to see Americans and Canadians pay tax money to buy the company jsut to find out that they use internet sockpuppets to suppress criticismAug 18 21:59
DaemonFCAs for Panasonic, what have they done?Aug 18 22:00
DaemonFCexploiting child labor overseas, polluting the environment, no worse than Sony or any other companyAug 18 22:00
DaemonFCI wish I could discover something like those rat eating pitcher plantsAug 18 22:03
DaemonFCI'd name them after Ann CoulterAug 18 22:03
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schestowitzLOLAug 18 22:07
DaemonFC 18 22:10
*amarsh04 was not particularly enamoured with matsushita electric co after purchasing a decent capacity battery and adaptor for a panasonic dvcamAug 18 22:10
DaemonFCI love that woman, I really doAug 18 22:10
DaemonFCnobody else could manage to piss away 500,000 hardline conservative readers who would typically believe anythingAug 18 22:11
DaemonFCamarsh04, What I want to know is why people buy camcorders to record themselves committing crimesAug 18 22:12
DaemonFCisn't that what the camcorder mounted on the dashboard in the police cruiser is for?Aug 18 22:12
DaemonFCpeople are stupid enough to not only commit crimes but leave video or photo evidence of themselves doing itAug 18 22:14
DaemonFCMicrosoft tells the cops what to seize when they take your computer by the way, nice long listAug 18 22:15
amarsh04I dunno either DaemonFC... some people like to video themselves doing drag races in front of police stations or the likeAug 18 22:15
DaemonFCsd cards, memory sticks, USB thumb drives, MP3 players, all the optical discs, your cell phone.....Aug 18 22:16
MinceRhow nice of themAug 18 22:16
DaemonFCyeah, if you have anything you shouldn't, hide t somewhereAug 18 22:16
DaemonFCif they come in and see it, it's going with themAug 18 22:17
amarsh04some movie previews all patrons have to leave with security all cameras and mobile phones capable of taking photographs or videoAug 18 22:17
MinceReverybody has something to hideAug 18 22:17
MinceRthe police is corrupt everywhereAug 18 22:17
DaemonFCMinceR, I recommend those things that look like a can of mixed vegetables or a can of shaving creamAug 18 22:17
DaemonFCthe cops probably won't seize a can of mixed vegetables out of your pantryAug 18 22:18
MinceRunless you tell them toAug 18 22:18
MinceRi see the conspiracy here :>Aug 18 22:18
DaemonFCwell, thing is, the fake can of shaving cream actually is partially full of shave creamAug 18 22:19
DaemonFCit just has a false bottomAug 18 22:19
amarsh04that's a classic for drug smugglingAug 18 22:19
DaemonFCyeah, but it won't look out of place in your medicine cabinetAug 18 22:19
DaemonFCbeats leaving your thumb drives laying out in the openAug 18 22:19
DaemonFCthe police are used to dealing with people who doAug 18 22:20
DaemonFCit probably won't occur to them that you're smarter than that if you just play dumb til they're goneAug 18 22:21
DaemonFCand if they do find something but it's encrypted, there's no law that says you have to give them the keyAug 18 22:22
DaemonFCactually, that would violate your fifth amendment right to not incriminate yourselfAug 18 22:22
amarsh04depends where you liveAug 18 22:22
DaemonFCwell, in the UK you can be sent to prison for 5 years for refusing to decrypt anything they suspect is evidenceAug 18 22:23
DaemonFChere they have to figure out how to decrypt it themselves or it's not evidenceAug 18 22:23
DaemonFCI've thought about claiming it wasn't encryption, it was a copy protection mechanismAug 18 22:24
DaemonFCfile a DMCA complaint against the cops?Aug 18 22:24
DaemonFC:DAug 18 22:24
taconenice ideaAug 18 22:24
ThistleWebfor some reason a mental image of a drag race popped into my head as a 100mtr sprint with blokes in dresses, make up and high heelsAug 18 22:25
DaemonFCThistleWeb, that's on SaturdaysAug 18 22:25
DaemonFCthis is TuesdayAug 18 22:25
DaemonFCstripper nightAug 18 22:25
DaemonFCnow Wednesday there's nothing going on so they have no cover charge and drink specialsAug 18 22:26
ThistleWeband sports wigs to reduce.....uhm.....dragAug 18 22:26
DaemonFCyou can be bored and drunk, but it's a lot cheaperAug 18 22:26
amarsh04ThistleWeb, I suspected that whatever term I used for young drivers performing illegal driving practices would be lost in translationAug 18 22:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] quick san francisco question: what/where is the red light district?Aug 18 22:26
DaemonFCUhhhm, I don't think he wants that answeredAug 18 22:28
DaemonFChe could do worse though, Chicago is nastierAug 18 22:29
ThistleWebamarsh04: lol, nah I knew what you meant, it was meant as a jokeAug 18 22:29
MinceRwell, people tend to ask questions because they want them answeredAug 18 22:29
DaemonFCyeah, well, there's some pretty depraved stuff I've seen in both places even by my standardsAug 18 22:30
amarsh04yes, it can be funny that no matter what you say, it can be interpreted in a way not intendedAug 18 22:30
*ThistleWeb will need to remember to add something like lol to the end of a sentence, IRC can be flatAug 18 22:30
DaemonFCso, yeah, I really don't think he wants to knowAug 18 22:30
MinceRThistleWeb: add "LOL KTHXBYE!!11!11111!!!!11111!!11" to the end of every sentenceAug 18 22:30
MinceR;)Aug 18 22:31
ThistleWeblolAug 18 22:31
amarsh04like the old line "sometimes b sharp, never b flat, always b natural"Aug 18 22:31
DaemonFCor set your twitter account to broadcast snippets from /b/Aug 18 22:31
ThistleWebyeah B is a bugger on the guitar thoughAug 18 22:31
ThistleWebactually b sharp is cAug 18 22:32
MinceRsome moar tips: 18 22:32
MinceRDaemonFC: sounds like a nice prankAug 18 22:32
ThistleWebanyhoo, don't wanna side track the channel, so back to the pointAug 18 22:32 has some text just up on the i4i versus microsoft caseAug 18 22:33
DaemonFC 18 22:35
MinceRthat's the moar i meant :>Aug 18 22:35
ThistleWebI like the i4i quote "we've looked at and it does not infringe on our patents", can't be much more explicit than thatAug 18 22:35
DaemonFChmmmmAug 18 22:36
DaemonFCmore like Microsoft has more money, we'll sue themAug 18 22:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Hope everyone's looking forward to Summerslam! Next Sunday!Aug 18 22:36
DaemonFCmaybe they only had enough lawyers to sue one so they flipepd for it?Aug 18 22:37
DaemonFC*flippedAug 18 22:37
ThistleWebgiven office is one of the 2 MS flagships and a HUGE part of the reason they have the money they do, you could imagine i4i demanding a HUGE payoff from themAug 18 22:37
MinceRmaybe ooo really doesn't infringe on their patents?Aug 18 22:37
DaemonFCmy guess is that if OOXML does, ODF does, I'm kind of leaning towards neither of them doAug 18 22:37
MinceRi know it's a stretchAug 18 22:37
ThistleWebapparently it doesn'tAug 18 22:37
MinceRbut at least consider it :>Aug 18 22:37
DaemonFCbut if you'r egoing to have delusions of grandeur, they may as well be really good onesAug 18 22:37
MinceRwasn't it about some method of processing xml?Aug 18 22:37
ThistleWebnot sure the detailsAug 18 22:38
DaemonFClook where they sued Microsoft? east TexasAug 18 22:38
ThistleWebi4i have actually said it does not infringeAug 18 22:38
DaemonFCthat's where the RIAA and patent trolls like to file suit tooAug 18 22:38
DaemonFCthat shit gets overturned 9 times out of 10Aug 18 22:38
ThistleWebit's not analysts who try to state it either wayAug 18 22:38
MinceR:>Aug 18 22:39
ThistleWebor guessAug 18 22:39
DaemonFCwhen you go after someone with money anywayAug 18 22:39
ThistleWebit's direct from the horses mouth, the patent owing horse in questionAug 18 22:39
DaemonFCtakes lots of money to get it to the next level of court, that's why the RIAA harasses people from TexasAug 18 22:39
ThistleWebowning*Aug 18 22:39
MinceRi don't quite see why they'd say "ooo doesn't infringe" if it doesAug 18 22:39
DaemonFCthe victims don't have the money to appealAug 18 22:39
ThistleWebit may have been in either slashdot or BNAug 18 22:39
MinceRunless they fear from the PR backlashAug 18 22:40
ThistleWebI read it earlier in one of my feedsAug 18 22:40
ThistleWebpossibly groklawAug 18 22:40
ThistleWebjust todayAug 18 22:40
DaemonFCMinceR, PR is one thing, Microsoft is a juicier settlement is the other big reasonAug 18 22:40
MinceRDaemonFC: they won't get a juicier settlement for saying ooo doesn't infringeAug 18 22:40
DaemonFCand they never said that once they're done with Microsoft, they won't double back and find that OOo doesn't infringeAug 18 22:40
MinceRhm, actually they mightAug 18 22:41
MinceRi didn't consider thatAug 18 22:41
DaemonFCthey probably just want to limit their enemies that they have to fight at onceAug 18 22:41
ThistleWeb  <<thereAug 18 22:41
DaemonFCif they stir the shit now, the OOo guys have time to prepare and are suddenly on the same side as MicrosoftAug 18 22:41
MinceR(m$ will feel more pressure if they're told their greatest competitor is safe)Aug 18 22:41
ThistleWebi4i said it has looked at OpenOffice and found it doesn't infringe on its patents.Aug 18 22:41
DaemonFCright, get it in writingAug 18 22:41
DaemonFCsignedAug 18 22:42
DaemonFCand notarizedAug 18 22:42
MinceR-- which could give i4i reason to turn back on that opinion -- but i'm not sure if that works legallyAug 18 22:42
DaemonFCit doesAug 18 22:42
DaemonFCthey could say that their lawyers revisited the opinion and are now firmly convinced that OOo does infringeAug 18 22:42
DaemonFCthey haven't actually, legally committed to anything by stating they don't feel OOo infringesAug 18 22:43
DaemonFCbut that takes me back to, i4i is a patent troll and they're going after the deep pocketed company that is more inclined to settleAug 18 22:43
fewaif they said it does not then they are held by thatAug 18 22:43
DaemonFCno they aren'tAug 18 22:43
fewaits called estoppelAug 18 22:44
MinceRhm, someone said they weren't a patent trollAug 18 22:44
MinceRbut i don't know either wayAug 18 22:44
DaemonFCMicrosoft's covenant not to sue actually protects you more than what i4i saidAug 18 22:44
fewaunless something new is added to after the factAug 18 22:44
ThistleWebit also puts a cramp on the peeps trying to muddy the waters tooAug 18 22:44
fewaDaemonFC, Microsoft has not promised anythingAug 18 22:44
fewayou have to actually read itAug 18 22:44
DaemonFCneither has i4iAug 18 22:44
fewait doesn't say anythingAug 18 22:44
DaemonFCMicrosoft jsut said nothing and used more wordsAug 18 22:44
fewawell I am only paraphrasing MinceRAug 18 22:45
MinceRwell, it all depends on how much Sun's lawyers are awake ;)Aug 18 22:45
fewa<fewa> if they said it does not then they are held by thatAug 18 22:45
fewaMicrosoft the same, but they have not said itAug 18 22:45
DaemonFCit's like fighting a war on two fronts, you want to avoid it if you canAug 18 22:45
fewawhile Google is completely capable of writing a clear licence 18 22:45
ThistleWebwhy believe an interpreter who may or may not be accurate (either intentionally or not) when they can go to the source, and the source in this case is not using wording that can be interpreted many ways, they explicitly state it does not infringeAug 18 22:45
DaemonFCtake out one  target at a time that nobody will stick their neck out overAug 18 22:45
fewashows Microsoft's malicious intentAug 18 22:46
DaemonFCthen come back for the restAug 18 22:46
fewaDaemonFC, thats why estoppel existsAug 18 22:46
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MinceRit's pretty obvious m$ never had any intention whatsoever to make their specifications safe to useAug 18 22:46
MinceRwhat's estoppel?Aug 18 22:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] EveryBlock Swallowed by Microsoft's Indoctrination Network 18 22:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Xbox 360 Failure Rate Reportedly 54.2%, Microsoft Exodus Reported by Insider 18 22:47
fewa 18 22:47
DaemonFCwell, under the patent laws Microsoft has lobbied for, they can't usetheir own specifications safelyAug 18 22:47
DaemonFCwhat makes you think you can? :DAug 18 22:47
fewabasically: no take backsiesAug 18 22:47
schestowitzI was just writing about ODFAug 18 22:48
schestowitzBN was right all alongAug 18 22:48
schestowitzODF is safe and OOo tooAug 18 22:48
schestowitzThe Gartner and Burton shills liesAug 18 22:48
MinceRughAug 18 22:48
schestowitz*liedAug 18 22:48
schestowitzAs one ought to expectAug 18 22:48
MinceRthis legalese drains me like a vampireAug 18 22:48
*MinceR closes the tabAug 18 22:48
schestowitzHehAug 18 22:48
fewaMinceR, if you say something that means something, then you can't sue saying that something is differn't than you saidAug 18 22:49
fewaThis is why Microsoft can't sue anyone over copyright of "Look and Feel"Aug 18 22:49
MinceRicAug 18 22:49
fewabecause of what they said in Apple v. MicrosoftAug 18 22:49
fewathats why they try to patent these thingsAug 18 22:49
fewawhich is so absurd that senior programmers have left over the practiceAug 18 22:50
schestowitz updatedAug 18 22:50
fewa 18 22:50
DaemonFCfewa: They claim they canAug 18 22:51
DaemonFCthe Windows 7 "About" dialog says their user interface is trademarkedAug 18 22:51
fewatrademarks and copyright are two differn't bodies of lawAug 18 22:52
fewaApple v Microsoft was about copyrightAug 18 22:52
DaemonFCso what happens if I create a very Windows 7-ish skin for Ubuntu but don't use any Microsoft logos or references?Aug 18 22:52
DaemonFCdo they still have grounds to sue?Aug 18 22:53
fewaThis is another reason why they try to confuse all these disparate, totally differn't conceptsAug 18 22:53
fewaDaemonFC, you, and Microsoft are comparing Apple to SupermanAug 18 22:53
fewato ask that you must understand trademark lawAug 18 22:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Wikipedia reaches 3 million articles, stalls and dies 18 22:53
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Retweet this awesome blog for losing weight off free products! http://cari-weightloss.netAug 18 23:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Eyes on Microsoft: Windows Disasters and Gagged Press; Microsoft/NBC Acquire More Press 18 23:56

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