IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 23rd, 2009

-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft's Main BBC Goon Spreads Propaganda Again Citizens ("Piracy") 23 00:00
toroshmmm, a great article from mr. schestowitz again: 23 00:00
torosand this is a pretty serious problem for the regular users, because they have to reinstall their windows from time to time because of viruses :PAug 23 00:01
Diablo-D3you know whats funny?Aug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3this debian install is like 8 years oldAug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3I keep rsyncing it to new driversAug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3er, drivesAug 23 00:02
toros8 years old?Aug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3yeahAug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3its unstable, so I never reinstall itAug 23 00:02
torosit's a pretty nice age for a computer...Aug 23 00:02
Diablo-D3toros.... why would I install debian when I get a new computer?Aug 23 00:03
torosDiablo-D3: is it a desktop pc?Aug 23 00:04
Diablo-D3yesAug 23 00:04
Diablo-D3reinstalling debian would only give me the packages I already have installedAug 23 00:04
torosyeah, that's trueAug 23 00:05
torosI gave my former computer to my motherAug 23 00:05
Diablo-D3and since I rsync to new drives, I don't even need to keep the same file systemAug 23 00:05
torosso I had to reinstall the OS :)Aug 23 00:05
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Diablo-D3probably the next time I replace my root drive it'll be ext4Aug 23 00:05
schestowitztoros: never thought of virusesAug 23 00:06
DaemonFChmmm, Batman: Arham Asylum only requires XPAug 23 00:07
schestowitzWhy doesn't the commission FORCE Microsoft to play nice there?Aug 23 00:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Lockerbie bomber freed for reasons other than business dealings 23 00:08
Diablo-D3actuallyAug 23 00:08
Diablo-D3the next time I replace my drives I'll probably use ssdsAug 23 00:08
yuhongIf you were referring to the MBR overwriting by Windows Setup, I suggested to install GRUB in the partition boot sector in a comment.Aug 23 00:09
torosschestowitz: well, the could be two reasons: either the don't see any problem here (they can't even turn on a computer, they don't understand, what it is about)... or simply they don't care...Aug 23 00:09
yuhong 23 00:09
torosI think Microsoft has millions of reasons why they shouldn't care about itAug 23 00:09
yuhong"A safer option is to install GRUB into the boot sector, which Windows Setup won’t touch. "Aug 23 00:10
schestowitzDaemonFC: (The History of the Universe)Aug 23 00:10
torosand there's another nice trick of microsoft... if you want to run windows virtualized, you have to buy the most expensive version of itAug 23 00:11
schestowitzYeah.Aug 23 00:11
schestowitzThat was challenged IIRCAug 23 00:11
schestowitzDon't worryAug 23 00:11
schestowitzMicrosoft is going awayAug 23 00:11
yuhongMS later fixed it.Aug 23 00:11
schestowitzNot so fastAug 23 00:11
schestowitzBut it's happeningAug 23 00:11
yuhongI would not go that far.Aug 23 00:11
torosand another pretty ugly trick of microsoft is the so-called "windows 7 hype"Aug 23 00:12
torosokay, windows 7 is better than windows xp, I admit itAug 23 00:13
yuhongBut what I really want to talk about is the long term solution to both the Android Market and the iTunes App Store's DRM.Aug 23 00:13
torosbut it has to be after 8 years of developmentAug 23 00:13
toroswindows 7 is just another windows...Aug 23 00:13
yuhongActually, Vista was 5 years of development, and 7 was 3 years.Aug 23 00:13
torosbut it is far behind desktops like MoblinAug 23 00:14
schestowitzOr KDE4Aug 23 00:14
schestowitzBut...Aug 23 00:14
yuhongAnyway, the long term solution is to move to a business model that do not require artificial scarcity.Aug 23 00:14
torosor gnome 3 (I hope)Aug 23 00:14
schestowitzKDE4 is not ahead in _Hype_Aug 23 00:14
schestowitzHype is expensiveAug 23 00:14
schestowitzIt's a pseudo-featureAug 23 00:14
schestowitzVista has hype tooAug 23 00:14
schestowitzThat feature diesAug 23 00:15
toroswindows 7 is very old-schoolAug 23 00:15
schestowitzCause people just spoke too blippin' muchAug 23 00:15
torosby the way, I hate apple more than microsoft :PAug 23 00:18
torosI think apple is even better in restricting users than microsoftAug 23 00:19
yuhongWell, the Apple hardware requirement for Mac OS X is another mess altogether.Aug 23 00:20
yuhongBTW, seems to be down right nowAug 23 00:22
torosand you can synchronize an iPOD only with iTunes... that's just odd...Aug 23 00:23
toroswhy not creating just a plain usbdisk device?Aug 23 00:23
torosthat's another funny thingAug 23 00:23
torosI have a samsung mp3 playerAug 23 00:24
yuhongOK it isn't now.Aug 23 00:24
torosthe european version supports only mtpAug 23 00:24
toros(microsoft transfer protocol)Aug 23 00:24
torosand can't play ogg filesAug 23 00:24
toroshowever, the same device with korean firmware works as plain usbdisk deviceAug 23 00:24
torosand is able to play ogg filesAug 23 00:25
torosso I use my mp3 player with the korean firmwareAug 23 00:25
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torosthe same device, the only difference is the firmwareAug 23 00:25
torosso it is pretty clear that microsoft forced somehow samsung to sell windows-only devices in europeAug 23 00:27
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DaemonFCMicrosoft may start renting Windows ServerAug 23 00:29
DaemonFCServer 2009 R2 has special types of keys that only last a certain number of daysAug 23 00:29
DaemonFC*2008 R2 that isAug 23 00:29
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hypocracy at work at the FSF Want credit for GNU,won't give credit to Firefox for Ogg penetration.Icecat instead.Aug 23 00:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hypocracy at work at the FSF Want credit for GNU,won't give credit to Firefox for Ogg support.Icecat instead.Aug 23 00:44
Diablo-D3but... icecat doesnt support <video> yetAug 23 00:45
Diablo-D3they havent imported ff 3.5 to their tree yetAug 23 00:45
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torosicecat is still based on firefox 3.0?Aug 23 00:47
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schestowitz 23 00:51
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schestowitz 23 01:00
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schestowitztoros: yesAug 23 01:12
schestowitzAs of recently.Aug 23 01:13
schestowitzAlways well behindAug 23 01:13
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schestowitzI have icecat on my second PC at homeAug 23 01:13
toroswhat's the reason for icecat?Aug 23 01:13
torosit's pretty easy to build an unbranded firefoxAug 23 01:14
torosby the way debian has an unbranded firefox called iceweaselAug 23 01:14
toroson ubuntu it's called abrowserAug 23 01:15
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torosso I don't see any reason for a yet-another-unbranded-firefox projectAug 23 01:15
torosespecially when it's month behind the official firefox buildAug 23 01:16
torosand by the way firefox has pretty bad desktop integration on gnome and even worse on kdeAug 23 01:17
torosso I think the GNU project should support a real GNU/Linux browser, like epiphany or midoriAug 23 01:18
schestowitzit's not the brandingAug 23 01:23
schestowitzI recalled what they changed about a year agoAug 23 01:23
schestowitzThey removed some other non-Free stuffAug 23 01:23
torosohh, it's half past 2 a.m.Aug 23 01:24
torosI'm better heading to bedAug 23 01:24
torosgood night!Aug 23 01:25
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schestowitzsame hereAug 23 01:26
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schestowitzHmmmm.. how long has the server been down for, I wonderAug 23 07:47
schestowitzping tessier Aug 23 07:47
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schestowitztessier: my IP range seems to have been somehow blacklisted by iptablesAug 23 08:03
schestowitzFamily claim cover-up over death in police custody < >Aug 23 08:06
schestowitztessier: OK, it works nowAug 23 08:06
schestowitzNo idea what happendAug 23 08:06
schestowitzAll machines on this network were denies access for like 1/3 an hour :-) Maybe a network hiccupAug 23 08:07
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schestowitzDeaths, lung damage linked to nanoparticles in China < >Aug 23 08:37
schestowitzDan Rather, dogged plaintiff <,0,3488523.story >Aug 23 08:44
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schestowitzFCC enforcing imaginary laws in P2P ruling, says Comcast < >Aug 23 08:46
schestowitzAMD still sucking up to Microsoft? "We also learned that DX 11 (and presumably, AMD cards to push it) will debut prior to the dawn of 2010, but outside of that, most everything else is being kept under wraps. Indeed, the demo was mostly to show that things were still on track and for the chip maker to assure us all that it will "deliver DirectX 11 first."" 23 08:49
schestowitz 23 08:52
tessiergrrrrAug 23 08:53
tessierThe colo is really sucking latelyAug 23 08:53
tessierVery oddAug 23 08:53
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schestowitzIt's working well on other networksAug 23 09:00
schestowitzOn mine it's on and off. But I never ever saw this before.Aug 23 09:00
schestowitztessier: it's a lot more reliable than the old host,overallAug 23 09:01
schestowitzCould be worse... like Andy's,... It keeps happening to himAug 23 09:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Swiss watchdog demands shutdown of Google Street View 23 09:17
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] McAfee engages in some corruption 1+ years ago. It also attacked the GPL. Now there's this: 23 09:18
schestowitzTeen becomes first jailed in U.K. for cyberbullying 23 09:20
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DaemonFCI have a DirectX 10.1 cardAug 23 09:41
DaemonFCnot that it matters much, there's like a dozen games that can use DirectX 10 and like 2-3 that need itAug 23 09:42
DaemonFCI can't name one major engine currently in use (outside of Microsoft Game Studios) or on the drawing board for the next couple of years that depends on DirectX 10Aug 23 09:43
schestowitzWhen does DirectX 20 comes out?Aug 23 09:44
schestowitzWhat about BLAG 5000:? Sounds like it rocks big time.Aug 23 09:44
DaemonFCnow with DirectX 11, it'll run on Vista and 7, but they'll have to wait at least 2 years yet before combined, they overtake XPAug 23 09:44
schestowitzTHe studios are all OpenGLAug 23 09:44
schestowitzDaemonFC: naaa...Aug 23 09:45
schestowitzAs Apple grows in rich quarters too, OpenGL will gain more appearAug 23 09:45
schestowitzOpenGL 3.2 is outAug 23 09:45
DaemonFCthere's only a few major Windows games that use OpenGLAug 23 09:45
schestowitzSony backs it alsoAug 23 09:45
schestowitzDaemonFC: key work WindowsAug 23 09:45
DaemonFCit's been dying off ever since VistaAug 23 09:45
schestowitzPeople move to consolesAug 23 09:45
schestowitzNo, VIsta killed itselfAug 23 09:45
schestowitzAnd Vista 7 won't eb adoptedAug 23 09:46
schestowitzPeople don't buy many new PCsAug 23 09:46
DaemonFCpeople are clinging to their old ones to stay with XP is what it looks likeAug 23 09:46
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DaemonFCXP is only losing perhaps 1% or so of its users a month since Vista came outAug 23 09:47
DaemonFCthat means if Windows 7 is not a success, they're going to really be hurtingAug 23 09:47
DaemonFCXP is hurting Microsoft right now more than Apple and Linux put togetherAug 23 09:48
DaemonFCpeople are still slapping XP and XP x64 on new systems too, it's still for sale as "OEM" on a lot of sitesAug 23 09:49
DaemonFCDirectX 9 is not a bad API though, I mean if you play that demo of Batman: Arkham Asylum you'll see pretty much all of DirectX 9 in useAug 23 09:53
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DaemonFCand PhysX tooAug 23 09:53
schestowitzXP does not hurt themAug 23 09:53
schestowitzIt's sensationalist repotingAug 23 09:53
schestowitzThe spin about XP "hurting" themAug 23 09:53
schestowitzSelf-congrstulatoryAug 23 09:54
schestowitzLike saying, "I failed the exam cause I was too conceited"Aug 23 09:54
DaemonFCthe biggest technical limitation in XP right now is the 32-bit memory ceilingAug 23 09:54
DaemonFCthat's making it show its age more than anythingAug 23 09:54
schestowitzOr: "I had this illness cause of my genes"Aug 23 09:54
DaemonFCI wouldn't be happy if the last time you bought something from me was 8 years agoAug 23 09:55
DaemonFCand were ignoring my new productAug 23 09:55
DaemonFCschestowitz: Technically, if you had bought a retail copy of XP in 2001, you could still be using that copy on a system you build todayAug 23 09:57
DaemonFCretail copies will reactivate on new systems, OEM won'tAug 23 09:57
DaemonFCthat's why you're not really saving any money buying OEM, they'll get the rest out of you and then some when you have to buy another copy when you build the next systemAug 23 09:58
DaemonFCschestowitz: I also found out what they had done with the Windows Server serials they gave meAug 23 10:00
DaemonFCif you change any hardware at all and reinstall Windows, it won't activate againAug 23 10:00
DaemonFChas to be a perfect matchAug 23 10:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Office Loses Credibility Due to i4i Lawsuit, Motorola Dumps Office 23 10:01
schestowitzIn 8 years they could not offer something more appealing. What if science was the same...?Aug 23 10:01
schestowitzWe'd be using 800Mhz CPUs, stillAug 23 10:01
DaemonFCmeh, 8 year cycles aren't unheard of on LinuxAug 23 10:02
DaemonFCRHEL 4 is still supported and maintained with bug fixesAug 23 10:02
DaemonFCI think their official policy is something like 7 years of support on each major release of RHELAug 23 10:03
DaemonFCisn't RHEL 4 still on 2.6.8 based kernel?Aug 23 10:03
DaemonFC6 month distros are jsut kind of released where everything is at at the momentAug 23 10:04
DaemonFCthat's why you can end up with anything from awful to greatAug 23 10:04
DaemonFCone thing may be half-broken, another thing may not make it in timeAug 23 10:05
DaemonFCDebian is a lot better than that generallyAug 23 10:05
DaemonFCyou want cutting edge, you get bugs and glitches, lots of themAug 23 10:06
DaemonFCDebian would never release with the sheer number of critical bugs that any typical Ubuntu release hasAug 23 10:06
fewaDebian is greatAug 23 10:08
DaemonFCschestowitz: The rule of thumb in a corporation used to be to not upgrade Windows til Service Pack 1 was outAug 23 10:08
DaemonFCso Server 2003 and 2008 actually shipped with the equivalent service pack level of XP SP1 and Vista SP1Aug 23 10:08
DaemonFCin the 2-3 years before a new Windows Server, Microsoft is actually gathering bug and crash report data from the consumer version of WindowsAug 23 10:09
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DaemonFCconsumers get the buggy RTM product and find all the really nasty stuff so Windows Server customers don'tAug 23 10:10
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DaemonFCthe fact that Server 2008 R2 is going out with the same NT 6.1 kernel and core OS files as Windows 7 shows you how minor a release Windows 7 isAug 23 10:12
DaemonFCif it wasn't a minor release, they'd never use the same core files in ServerAug 23 10:12
DaemonFCyou just don't piss off the guys with $1,000 for every copy and liveAug 23 10:13
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DaemonFCschestowitz: 23 10:45
DaemonFChehAug 23 10:45
DaemonFCI agree totally that OS/2 was better, the local Radio Shack even had some PCs with it loaded on them at one pointAug 23 10:49
DaemonFCbe it any system though, all good user abuse survives no matter how many times you revision somethingAug 23 10:51
DaemonFCLinux is carrying UNIX baggage, OS/2 was carrying a lot of Windows baggage (file formats, dll hell, file systems even, file naming convention)Aug 23 10:52
DaemonFCat least HPFS allowed long filenames before Windows 95 was outAug 23 10:53
schestowitzInteresting videoAug 23 11:03
schestowitzOld one.Aug 23 11:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] "Bilski Vs Doll" at the US Supreme Court becomes "Bilski Vs Kappos" or "Bilski Vs IBM" if you prefer.Aug 23 11:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Versus Biology Research, Patent Systems in US and EU Challenged 23 11:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft-Yahoo! Deal Not a Done Deal, But Microsoft Proceeds to Other Deals as Search Ambitions Fail 23 11:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Chaser: Gay scientists isolate Christian gene 23 12:00
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @zoobab #Bilski trying to sue to get a business method #patent issued, #USPTO refused their patent, seek judicial reviewAug 23 12:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] william patry agrees: use the phrase "intellectual monopoly", not "intellectual property" patents are corporate welfareAug 23 12:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] American Petroleum Institute buses in employees, fakes grassroots opposition to #climate change bill 23 12:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] silverlight = hypercard 23 12:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @sizeof saying the word "silverlight" does not mean I wan t to be spammed by you. did you write your spambot in silverlight?Aug 23 12:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Taking it easy in the sun with the family at wellington country park.Aug 23 13:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] #mocknblock @miguelcarrasco is another twitter spammer auto-adding anyone using the word "silverlight". good luck with that.Aug 23 13:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] o noez! is RationalWiki out of service? i just looked at conservapedia and was near overwhelmed by the stupidityAug 23 13:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] /me is !listening to David Guetta - When Love Takes Over (Feat. Kelly Rowland)Aug 23 13:07
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] looks like rationalwiki had a comprehensive mysql disaster arse!Aug 23 13:12
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Crowd Incites People Against Rival Web Browsers 23 13:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] @davidgerard except that HyperCard was a forerunner to HTML, while SL is an attempt to hijack HTML. also HC was standalone to one computerAug 23 13:21
trmanco,2817,2351894,00.aspAug 23 13:29
schestowitzYEah, well.. says MicrosoftAug 23 13:34
schestowitzJudge: Microsoft seriously flawedAug 23 13:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Gartner Group Shows Its True Colours — Censors Reporters 23 13:45
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] I hadn't realised that my papers are still being cited, even years after publishing any. 23 13:47
schestowitzYouTube favourites are not *exactly* private, it would seem. 23 13:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft and the Publishing Industry as Inseparable 23 14:29
cubezzzisn't online music moving _away_ from drm?Aug 23 14:47
oiaohm_Some areas cubezzzAug 23 14:48
oiaohm_There are still a lot of music that is only released on line with DRM.Aug 23 14:48
schestowitzCommon Sense 2009 23 14:48
oiaohm_Lot of online music is moving to watermarking.Aug 23 14:48
schestowitzStreaming tooAug 23 14:49
schestowitzStreamin' piles of music!Aug 23 14:50
schestowitzNot catching on with teensAug 23 14:50
schestowitzOh no. THis good Linux advocate helps deniers of global warming. 23 14:53
schestowitz"That’s one in the eye for Microsoft. Take THAT for supporting software patents! Microsoft quoted as saying “D’OH! >.< ” (not really but schadenfreude forbids me to NOT find that funny.)" 23 14:54
schestowitzTrolls in Linux Today. 23 14:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] opensource charity guy, uninsured American, needs hospital cash donate your depleted-uranium pounds sterling! I gave £10Aug 23 15:00
cubezzzwatermarking I can live withAug 23 15:01
cubezzzbtw is watermarking possible with mp3?Aug 23 15:02
oiaohm_Yes its already done to some peoples shock horror of having there music buying account suspended due to music leaking into p2p.Aug 23 15:03
cubezzzhmmmAug 23 15:03
oiaohm_Nice bit the watermarks can even live through transcoding or analog recording.Aug 23 15:04
oiaohm_  << Nice its a go.Aug 23 15:05
schestowitzbblAug 23 15:05
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cubezzzoiaohm_, ok how is that possible? :)Aug 23 15:08
cubezzzanalog recording?Aug 23 15:08
oiaohm_Because its in the audio stream cubezzzAug 23 15:09
oiaohm_On videos it can be hidden in both.Aug 23 15:09
oiaohm_The issue with a watermark is that it can be hard to detect without comparing to other copies.Aug 23 15:10
cubezzzsounds close to entrapment to meAug 23 15:12
oiaohm_Its not a trap to anyone doing legally the right thing cubezzzAug 23 15:13
oiaohm_It can even to be useful in cases of forgotten ownership.Aug 23 15:13
cubezzzyeah like I said I can live with it, I buy my music from puretracks.comAug 23 15:14
cubezzzoccasionally I have to remove drm, so far no problemsAug 23 15:14
oiaohm_Its like gps units in phones they can save someones live or be abused to track someone.Aug 23 15:15
oiaohm_all tech is doubled sidedAug 23 15:17
cubezzztrueAug 23 15:17
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_goblinwhat a glorious day.....27C here.Aug 23 17:01
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schestowitzHey, _Goblin Aug 23 17:17
schestowitzDay off?Aug 23 17:17
schestowitzbrbAug 23 17:17
_Goblinsorry...afk...Aug 23 17:37
_Goblinhi!Aug 23 17:37
_Goblinyep day off (and monday)Aug 23 17:38
_Goblingoing to get some posts up on my blog...then look forward to Summerslam.Aug 23 17:38
schestowitz "Comments have been temporarily disabled while we investigate what happened with the hacker. Sorry for the inconvenience."Aug 23 17:42
schestowitz"wow HACKED BY BIOHAZARD wtf happened?"Aug 23 17:42
schestowitzHow's the FTC dossier coming along?Aug 23 17:42
schestowitz 23 17:44
schestowitz"Windows 7 will be released soon, and although there is actually lots of positive buzz about their latest product (in comparison to a lot of negative buzz about Vista), there simply aren't that many new features in 7. I maintain the suspicion that the whole Windows Mojave experiment was just a ploy by Microsoft to see if they could get away with repackaging and renaming Vista with only a few minor improvements. No more improvement Aug 23 17:44
schestowitzthan I would expect with each subsequent release of Ubuntu. The difference is that Ubuntu takes six months to put out a new release, and Microsoft takes at least two years."Aug 23 17:44
schestowitzWhat pointless press release you can find out there....... 23 17:45
schestowitzAdobe can't get it right the first time.. 23 17:48
schestowitz 23 17:52
schestowitz"A 34-YEAR-OLD woman, the mother of a 12-year-old girl, has been locked up in a Virginia jail for three weeks and could remain there for at least another month. Her crime? Blogging about the police." 23 17:54
schestowitz "Database Error: Unable to connect to the database:Could not connect to MySQL"Aug 23 17:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Database Error: Unable to connect to the database:Could not connect to MySQL" Well, at least it's a BD issue, not Lin ...Aug 23 17:58
schestowitz "A fatal error occurred while serving your request."Aug 23 17:59
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joseschestowitz, wanted to point out a series of comments... they are about patents, but it also gets into ms vs ibmAug 23 18:14
schestowitzHeyAug 23 18:14
jose 23 18:14
joseheyAug 23 18:14
josethat link has two links insideAug 23 18:14
joseif you get a chance to read it laterAug 23 18:15
josei don't want to get more distracted today so i don't think i'll hang around (but you have my email).Aug 23 18:15
schestowitzOIN is rubbishAug 23 18:15
schestowitzLet me look.Aug 23 18:16
jose>> In case, this comment appears cryptic, I think the OIN way is superior to the Microsoft way, but the OIN way still leaves much to be desired. The IP moguls are bottling up "free water" so the rest of us have to pay for it.Aug 23 18:16
jose>> Now, we see two approaches. Exploit it to the max for short-term gains (Microsoft), or help overcome the FOSS, Internet, etc threats so that IP can get back on track to being the way to control the most important of tomorrow's resources?Aug 23 18:16
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jose>> Will end users and small businesses always be pushed around (the vast majority of the market place and of society) and find it very difficult to have a real say in how society is run because the elite control too much? The average citizen always gets shafted and has a very large hole to dig themselves out of. How can you better yourself if you have no time to do so and everything is unfairly costly or restrictive? [Yes, some succeed from humble beginnAug 23 18:17
joseings, but not everyone is lucky.]Aug 23 18:17
jose Aug 23 18:17
joseWill FOSS stay freely accessible or will it be like "pirated music and software" because it violates patents left and right?Aug 23 18:17
schestowitzBTW:Aug 23 18:17
schestowitzIBM has good control at USPTO nowAug 23 18:17
jose>>Aug 23 18:17
joseInstead of participating, sharing, and growing, we are intended to buy buy buy.Aug 23 18:17
jose Aug 23 18:17
joseA consumer society, but do we have a fair choice?Aug 23 18:17
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schestowitz-BNc/#boycottnovell- [zoobab] "Bilski Vs Doll" at the US Supreme Court becomes "Bilski Vs Kappos" or "Bilski Vs IBM" if you prefer.Aug 23 18:17
jose>> IBM is not a fool. I believe they want to up the bar at the USPTO; get the FOSS community to produce (weak as sttt) prior art; change patent law to remove trolls; and have patents go to first-to-file rather than the inventor (yet another way to steal from FOSS). In other words, preserve the parts of the system that advantage them, change the parts that don't advantage them so that it now does (eg, to milk FOSS), and remove checks and balances (the desAug 23 18:18
josepised trolls) to these giant product producers.Aug 23 18:18
jose>> IBM/OIN, etc appear to want to generate the belief (if we look far enough into the future) that open source could not exist without patents. People wouldn't actually write that stuff for "free", right? That's what they need people to believe before it's clear to more people that patents are bad. "Patents promote innovation because they make FOSS possible."Aug 23 18:18
Will___schestowitz:  got a rare occurence for you:Aug 23 18:18
Will___ 23 18:18
Will___MS barely even bothered to refute the failure rate claims.Aug 23 18:18
Will___No "get the facts", no nothingAug 23 18:19
schestowitzre: " IBM/OIN, etc appear to want to generate the belief (if we look far enough into the future) that open source could not exist without patents."Aug 23 18:19
jose>> Let's welcome Microsoft to share patents and FOSS and FOSS licenses with us. Let's enlighten them. Let's use their patented technology and extend an olive branch.Aug 23 18:19
jose Aug 23 18:19
joseOOXML: not respectable. ODF: respectable. In the former's case, Microsoft and their limited "clan" win out. In the latter, a larger group of patent and copyright holders win. They do so through extensions. The core standard is free. The extensions people will want (value-ad) won't be free. Screw the Red Hat model and companies that try to make money on services and not hold lucrative IP over customer's heads (the power and threat to sue for unlimited damAug 23 18:19
joseages). Power over competition (and the way to make many customers pay) is through IP.Aug 23 18:19
schestowitzjose: did you see their amicus brief?Aug 23 18:19
joseAlright, that's enough....Aug 23 18:19
schestowitzThey say FOSS needs sw patentsAug 23 18:19
schestowitzloarsAug 23 18:19
schestowitz*liarsAug 23 18:19
schestowitzWill___: they got away easyAug 23 18:19
schestowitzIt's more than 54%Aug 23 18:19
josethat's in the stuff i just quotedAug 23 18:20
josei got that tidbit from either here or ltAug 23 18:20
schestowitzIBM is not much of a friendAug 23 18:21
schestowitzIt's like the foster dad who want you to do well so that he grabs the moneyAug 23 18:21
schestowitzLike Don KingAug 23 18:21
Will___schestowitz : Probably.   But it doesn't matter.  Any consumer electronics product with a failure rate around 50% 4 years later is unacceptable.  Any other industry, any other company that tried that would have been shut down long ago.Aug 23 18:21
Diablo-D3Will___: ehAug 23 18:21
schestowitzI try to tell Sutor that I know what they're up toAug 23 18:21
Diablo-D350% 4 years later kinda sounds par for the courseAug 23 18:21
schestowitzThen he ignored or deletes commentsAug 23 18:22
jose>> It's like the foster dad who want you to do well so that he grabs the moneyAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3as long as all of them happen in the 4th yearAug 23 18:22
schestowitzWill___: they should be sued againAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3schestowitz: manAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3whats the point of suingAug 23 18:22
schestowitzSome cunsumer groups would support such a lawsuitAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3all they do is make the suer look like a dickAug 23 18:22
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schestowitzIt worked for disc-scratchingAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3its easier to just not do business with themAug 23 18:22
schestowitzOr.. they could remove the product from the marketAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3vote with your moneyAug 23 18:22
schestowitzIt's dangerous for startersAug 23 18:22
Diablo-D3meh, its not even dangerousAug 23 18:23
schestowitz 23 18:23
Diablo-D3dont leave microsoft products plugged in when you leave the roomAug 23 18:23
Diablo-D3buh, what?Aug 23 18:23
Will___still, the fault lies with the consumer here as much as or more than with Microsoft.Aug 23 18:23
Will___they still buy the thingsAug 23 18:23
Diablo-D3Will___: unfortunately it doesAug 23 18:23
Diablo-D3if you dont like the xbox, QUIT BUYING NEW ONESAug 23 18:23
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schestowitzWill___: they make misinformed choice thoughAug 23 18:24
schestowitzMicrosoft should do what tobacco giants doAug 23 18:24
schestowitzPut a label on the boxAug 23 18:24
joseDiablo-D3, I'm not a lawsuit person, but one benefit of suing is that you allow more reasonable competitor into the market and to succeedAug 23 18:24
Will___at least they have a choice and know it.  It's not quite like the PC industryAug 23 18:24
schestowitz"This product is more likely to break than to last"Aug 23 18:24
Diablo-D3jose: nintendo _is_ that reasonable competitor... they rule the marketAug 23 18:24
Will___If this were the PC industry, Microsoft would have figured out a way to prevent retailers from stocking Wiis and PS3s.Aug 23 18:24
josesaga would have been until they exited the marketAug 23 18:25
schestowitz"In a statement to TG Daily, Microsoft said..."Aug 23 18:25
schestowitzLOLAug 23 18:25
schestowitzTG Daily is a shill site to themAug 23 18:25
Diablo-D3sega didnt wanna do hardware anymoreAug 23 18:25
schestowitzOnly earlier today I gave an exampleAug 23 18:25
Diablo-D3I dont blame themAug 23 18:25
josejust as microsoft was entering the marketAug 23 18:25
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Diablo-D332x was an epic failureAug 23 18:25
Diablo-D3saturn was a failure in north america because sega of america refused to bring games hereAug 23 18:25
Diablo-D3and the dreamcast didnt sell enough to make up for the previous two failuresAug 23 18:26
_Goblinwas the saturn a sucess anywhere?Aug 23 18:26
Will___schestowitz : The irc seems to be holding on to my username somehow.  It keeps putting more underscores each time I log in.  I though I was logging off correctly (/part).Aug 23 18:27
Diablo-D3yes, in japanAug 23 18:27
_Goblindidnt save it though....Aug 23 18:27
Diablo-D3because they had an absolute shitload of gamesAug 23 18:27
Diablo-D3_Goblin: like I said, SoA refused to bring the games hereAug 23 18:27
joseat this point, microsoft is in the hole, but it won't be pretty if they lock in a large chunk of the console marketAug 23 18:27
Diablo-D3so you buy the saturn... and then have like 6 titles for itAug 23 18:27
schestowitzWill___: use /nickAug 23 18:27
_Goblinbut remember the UK (for example) had been spoiled by the SNES and its superiority over the MD......Aug 23 18:27
Diablo-D3_Goblin: the genesis and snes were both successes everywhereAug 23 18:28
Diablo-D3and neither was superior over the otherAug 23 18:28
_Goblinthen the PSX was released and sega never had a chance....they blew thier image (IMO) when MD was compared to SNES and mode 7Aug 23 18:28
Diablo-D3they were both good consoles, and both had dozens of titles worth owningAug 23 18:28
Diablo-D3_Goblin: no, not at allAug 23 18:28
Diablo-D3the ps1 was basically a failure compared to the dreamcastAug 23 18:29
_Goblinhow so?Aug 23 18:29
Diablo-D3it took sony a long time to catch up to the dreamcast in sales of the console and the gamesAug 23 18:29
_Goblinok...but then look where it took them with the PS2....Aug 23 18:29
Diablo-D3and the ps1 came out firstAug 23 18:29
josethe better product doesn't win.. the stronger company winsAug 23 18:29
_Goblintrue, look at the jaguarAug 23 18:29
_Goblinhad great potential.Aug 23 18:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Apple ___ set to revolutionise consumer electronics 23 18:30
Will___The ps1 was born from a falling out between Nintendo and Sony.  They were working on a CD add-on for the SNES.  It fell through a good way into the project.  Sony took what they had developed and turned it into the ps1.Aug 23 18:30
Diablo-D3the ps2 didnt beat the dreamcast (it came out like 3 months afterwards) for like 5 yearsAug 23 18:30
josethe stronger company has to do with how much they own and what levers they have.. eventually things fall their wayAug 23 18:30
_Goblinmaybe not in Japan, but in the west?Aug 23 18:30
Diablo-D3Will___: what most people fail to mention is the snes was half sony designedAug 23 18:30
Diablo-D3_Goblin: Im talking worldwideAug 23 18:30
_Goblinsorry dont buy the UK you couldnt move for the PS1Aug 23 18:30
Will___Diablo-D3: never knew thatAug 23 18:31
Diablo-D3_Goblin: thats the UK, no one cares about europeAug 23 18:31
_Goblinyou just said the worldAug 23 18:31
_Goblinmake yourself clear or get your facts correctAug 23 18:31
Diablo-D3the world includes north america (>50% of game sales) japan (the rest) europe (about 5%)Aug 23 18:31
Diablo-D3europe is a very small percentage of sales, so no, it really doesnt matterAug 23 18:31
_Goblinyes and by implication you were speaking for everyone....that is not the case...Aug 23 18:31
Diablo-D3I was speaking for everyone weighted by what they buyAug 23 18:32
_Goblinsince I am from Europe, in terms of the PS1 that was the world.Aug 23 18:32
schestowitzHat utter nonsenseAug 23 18:32
schestowitzMost game sales in the US. Show proof, please./Aug 23 18:32
Diablo-D3Will___: the spc700 is a sony chip, and the graphics design is partially sony designedAug 23 18:33
Diablo-D3schestowitz: most europeans refuse to believe itAug 23 18:33
Diablo-D3europe just isnt a big area for game manufs.Aug 23 18:33
_Goblinlol.....Aug 23 18:33
_Goblinfunny that...Aug 23 18:33
Diablo-D3it may change now that you guys have HDMI TVsAug 23 18:33
_GoblinAmiga developers didnt do too badly from Europe.Aug 23 18:34
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Diablo-D3and theres room to put multiple translations on the same discAug 23 18:34
Diablo-D3most hardcore EU games historically imported NTSC TVs and gear to gameAug 23 18:34
Diablo-D3*gamersAug 23 18:34
_Goblinrubbish.Aug 23 18:35
Diablo-D3no one wanted to port stuff to PALAug 23 18:35
_GoblinI had a Jap SnesAug 23 18:35
Diablo-D3_Goblin: thats NTSCAug 23 18:35
_GoblinyepAug 23 18:35
Diablo-D3you imported itAug 23 18:35
_Goblinno tvAug 23 18:35
_Goblinno imported tvAug 23 18:35
Diablo-D3your tv was dual mode thenAug 23 18:35
_GoblinPal60 TV's are quite able to handle NTSCAug 23 18:35
_GoblinI never had a problem.Aug 23 18:35
Diablo-D3pal60 == can do ntsc tooAug 23 18:36
Diablo-D3since it understands ntsc color timingsAug 23 18:36
_Goblinyes thats what I said,Aug 23 18:36
Diablo-D3if you plug ntsc into a pal tv, you get the luminance just not the colorAug 23 18:36
Diablo-D3the TV generally syncs to the ntsc timings correctly though, you just dont get colorAug 23 18:36
_Goblinyes you do.Aug 23 18:36
Diablo-D3on plain pal, noAug 23 18:36
Diablo-D3on dual mode tvs, you doAug 23 18:37
_Goblinyou didnt say that....Aug 23 18:37
_GoblinTV's here have been dual mode for a long time...Aug 23 18:37
Diablo-D3_Goblin: for a troll, you're pretty shitty at trying to twist words aroundAug 23 18:37
Diablo-D3most people in the 80s and early 90s in europe had TVs built in the 70sAug 23 18:37
_Goblincertainly around the time of the SNES a scart connection was all required to play NTSCAug 23 18:37
_Goblinand I am the troll? lol.Aug 23 18:37
Diablo-D3europe has been behind the rest of the world up to generally the late 90sAug 23 18:38
_GoblinDiablo-D3: Ive doubted you since you first started to post....Aug 23 18:38
_Goblinabsolute rubbish.Aug 23 18:38
_Goblinwe had PAL you had NTSCAug 23 18:38
Diablo-D3_Goblin: which one of us ported zsnes to linux? hint: its meAug 23 18:38
_Goblinand that is impressive because?Aug 23 18:38
_Goblin(if its to be believed)Aug 23 18:38
Diablo-D3well, it proves I know more about this shit than youAug 23 18:38
_GoblinlolAug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3so please, shut the fuck up.Aug 23 18:39
_Goblinand have to resort to swearing....Aug 23 18:39
_GoblinlolAug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3you had a jap snes, you admitted you were one of those gamersAug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3"oh but europe is totally awesome!"Aug 23 18:39
_Goblinyep.  I was a teenager.....Aug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3not if you were gamer back then.Aug 23 18:39
_Goblineh?Aug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3europe didnt sell games, everyone shit on themAug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3nintendo did, sega did, sony didAug 23 18:39
_Goblinyes it did.Aug 23 18:39
Diablo-D3and microsoft still doesAug 23 18:39
_Goblinwhat games are you talking about?Aug 23 18:40
_Goblinthats why I had the Magicom anyway,,,Aug 23 18:40
_Goblinso it really didnt matter.Aug 23 18:40
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_Goblinah.....and now the double act.Aug 23 18:41
Diablo-D3during the 80s and early 90s, europe accounted for about 5-10% of game salesAug 23 18:41
_Goblinso?Aug 23 18:41
Diablo-D3NA was over 50%, japan was the restAug 23 18:42
Diablo-D3no one cared about europe BECAUSE YOU WERNT BUYING ANYTHINGAug 23 18:42
Diablo-D3japan has like 1/20th of the population of europe, yet could significantly buy gamesAug 23 18:42
_Goblinjapan were pirating and the UK was buying...(Magicom? Super Diskdoctor V64)Aug 23 18:43
_Goblinof course sales will be lower in the UKAug 23 18:43
_Goblinits smaller than Japan (or was last time I checked)Aug 23 18:43
Diablo-D3brbAug 23 18:44
Diablo-D3Im talking all of europe btwAug 23 18:44
Diablo-D3not just your backwards countryAug 23 18:44
_Goblinyou didn't answer my point how if the European market is so small, how Amiga devs were able to make a killing.Aug 23 18:44
_GoblinlolAug 23 18:44
_GoblinDiablo-D3: And Im the troll?Aug 23 18:44
joseI wonder if the humans of the 24th century will come with a built-in joystickAug 23 18:44
_GoblinI can imagine where diablo will have his...Aug 23 18:44
DaemonFCChina is actually cracking down on piracy nowAug 23 18:45
DaemonFCI bet this means we see less cracked XP and more Linux with XP themesAug 23 18:45
_GoblinI wouldnt think so....Aug 23 18:46
DaemonFCyou ever notice how every Linux from China always looks like XP?Aug 23 18:46
_Goblincant say I have.Aug 23 18:46
DaemonFC 23 18:47
DaemonFCthe state-sponsored LinuxAug 23 18:47
DaemonFCRed FlagAug 23 18:47
schestowitzDiablo-D3: stoned on a Sunday?Aug 23 18:49
joselater..Aug 23 18:49
schestowitzjose: cya soonAug 23 18:49
DaemonFCtheir netbook Linux is also using an XP Luna themeAug 23 18:49
*jose has quit ("Leaving")Aug 23 18:49
schestowitzGrotesque Aug 23 18:49
DaemonFCmeh, just trying to give them what they're used to I assumeAug 23 18:50
DaemonFCI've seen some passable Vista clones tooAug 23 18:50
schestowitzTrying Out Impress Prototype (Renaissance) < >Aug 23 18:51
schestowitzPeople are not used just to themsAug 23 18:51
schestowitzMetaphorsAug 23 18:51
schestowitzIf you make it look like XP, people will expect everything to behave the sameAug 23 18:52
DaemonFCsome are just close enough to avoid copyright infringementAug 23 18:52
schestowitzDoesn't Luna have prior artAug 23 18:52
schestowitz?Aug 23 18:52
schestowitzLike, y'know, Fish-Price?Aug 23 18:52
schestowitz*FisherAug 23 18:52
DaemonFCthen there's the ebay scammersAug 23 18:53
DaemonFCsell Kubuntu by describing everything as "Windows"-likeAug 23 18:53
schestowitzIt would actually be very funny if  a toy maker had sued Microsoft for copying designsAug 23 18:53
_GoblinWhy would anyone want an XP theme....thats like buying lamborgini and dressing it up as a skoda.Aug 23 18:53
DaemonFCRoyale isn't badAug 23 18:53
DaemonFCLuna wasAug 23 18:54
schestowitzStil uglyAug 23 18:54
DaemonFCthen there's Luna ElementsAug 23 18:54
schestowitzJobs: the problem with Microsoft is, they have no tasteAug 23 18:54
schestowitz 23 18:54
DaemonFCthe XP theming engine does support other themes you know?Aug 23 18:55
schestowitz"The problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. They have no taste and I don't mean that in a small way, I mean that in a big way" Aug 23 18:55
DaemonFCI've cloned GNOME before pretty thoroughlyAug 23 18:55
DaemonFCjust using XP themesAug 23 18:55
_Goblingreat....Aug 23 18:55
DaemonFC 23 18:56
DaemonFCthere's Royale NoirAug 23 18:56
schestowitzSteve Jobs Burning Bill Gates < >Aug 23 18:56
DaemonFC (Royale)Aug 23 18:57
_GoblinDaemonFC: that sure is a MS product.....but dressing it up as something else doesnt make it better.Aug 23 18:57
DaemonFCthey actually improved the themes quite a bitAug 23 18:57
DaemonFCthose are actual Microsoft themes, Noir was never released thoughAug 23 18:58
DaemonFCit was kind of a mock up they were using for some commercials in the UK, but they left it buried on one of their serversAug 23 18:58
_Goblinthats been MS's problem all along in my opinion....give it a facelift, a new name and then re-release it.....Aug 23 18:58
_Goblinand expect people to payAug 23 18:58
DaemonFCthe Energy Blue Royale was the Media Center 2005 themeAug 23 18:58
DaemonFC (me playing around)Aug 23 19:00
DaemonFCXP themes are kind of a dime a dozen at DeviantArt, there's also ones to clone OS X and GNOME and KDEAug 23 19:00
DaemonFCplugins for compositingAug 23 19:01
_GoblinIm impressed.....You can customise the taskbar in can put as much lipstick on that pig as you want, it doesnt change what it is.Aug 23 19:01
_Goblinand its sort of sad that people would want to try and hide the fact its windows (Mojave) for example.Aug 23 19:01
schestowitzUbuntu with 256Mb … not so smart < >Aug 23 19:02
DaemonFCyou can't use XP style themes in Vista or 7 but you can still use their style of themes, they're aroundAug 23 19:03
_Goblinand thats great because?Aug 23 19:03
_Goblinor of interest to Linux users because?Aug 23 19:03
DaemonFCtelling people Ubuntu runs in 256 megs of RAM is like telling people you can cram 50 teenagers in a phone boothAug 23 19:03
DaemonFCit's just not going to happen, too crampedAug 23 19:04
DaemonFCI'd call 512 megs a minimum and 1 GB preferableAug 23 19:04
_Goblin1gig?  I test most of the distros I review on a system with 512megAug 23 19:05
DaemonFCit'll run in 256 megs, you just better be ready to hurry up and wait on everythingAug 23 19:05
_Goblina little like VIsta with 4gigAug 23 19:05
DaemonFCit'll attack your SWAP pretty fiercely with anything less than 1 gigAug 23 19:05
*schestowitz sees screenshot of an ugly copy of kde4Aug 23 19:05
_Goblina little like Vista with 4gigAug 23 19:05
DaemonFCnoAug 23 19:05
_GoblinVista would use your swap simple for moving the mouse.........Aug 23 19:06
schestowitz_Goblin: it rains again hereAug 23 19:06
DaemonFCI have 4 gigs, I never see Windows thrashing my diskAug 23 19:06
schestowitzHow's it down souf[sic]?Aug 23 19:06
*schestowitz takes napAug 23 19:06
DaemonFCI've used Vista with as little as 1Aug 23 19:06
_GoblinDaemonFC: Im sure you dont....Vista is loved eh?Aug 23 19:06
DaemonFCit's usable, but I don't know why anyone would put up with such a minimal systemAug 23 19:07
DaemonFCRAM is like $8 a gigAug 23 19:07
_GoblinDaemonFC: Vista is gods gift to the world eh?Aug 23 19:07
DaemonFCyou have tightwads that don't want to replace their 10 year old computer trying to cram pack Ubuntu onto itAug 23 19:07
_GoblinDaemonFC: and 7 is so great it will bring about world 23 19:07
DaemonFCthat's why they say 256 megs, it's marketingAug 23 19:07
_GoblinDaemonFC: I have 7 machines....3 of which bought this year.  I wont pay for Windows because its inferior.  I may have money but I dont like to waste it.Aug 23 19:08
DaemonFCI have MSDN, Technet, and now Dreamspark accountsAug 23 19:08
_GoblinIm sure you do.Aug 23 19:09
DaemonFCI can download pretty much anything I wantAug 23 19:09
_Goblinso you download it without paying?Aug 23 19:09
DaemonFCthat's what the account allowsAug 23 19:09
_Goblintheres a good advert for Microsoft - "Our products are great, if you can get them for free...."Aug 23 19:09
_Goblinschestowitz: Its still hot here in Hertfordshire.Aug 23 19:10
_Goblinschestowitz: sorry I missed your earlier message, was distracted with Microsoft rubbish....Aug 23 19:12
DaemonFCI've been on MSDN for a while, they have pretty much everything there about 90 days before it's for saleAug 23 19:12
_Goblinwow...Aug 23 19:13
_Goblinare you talking about "warez"?Aug 23 19:14
DaemonFCnoAug 23 19:14
_Goblinwhat then?  Ballmers school photos?Aug 23 19:14
_Goblinwhat are you talking about?Aug 23 19:14
DaemonFC 23 19:14
DaemonFCthatAug 23 19:14
_Goblinah, now you make yourself clear.Aug 23 19:15
_GoblinMicrosoft_Developer_Network - An endangered species?Aug 23 19:15
DaemonFCthey have subscription tiers, if all you want is Windows it costs like $700 a year, but any licenses you get in that time stay validAug 23 19:16
_GoblinI'd rather give Moshe Goldfarb $700.....Windows? worthless.Aug 23 19:16
DaemonFCsome people do that if they have more than a couple PCs they want to run an expensive version of Windows onAug 23 19:16
_Goblina dying breed.Aug 23 19:17
_Goblineven Ballmer now seems to claim Linux has 10% (not the previously touted 1)Aug 23 19:17
DaemonFCcitation?Aug 23 19:17
_GoblinIve got a link to a slide from a MS talk...Aug 23 19:18
_Goblinstandby...Aug 23 19:18
_GoblinIll link it....Aug 23 19:18
_Goblingive me a few mins...It was in the comments section on my blog......Aug 23 19:19
_Goblingot it:Aug 23 19:20
_Goblin 23 19:20
_Goblinsorry about was a submittion from another user.Aug 23 19:20
_Goblintook a while to find.Aug 23 19:20
DaemonFC"As you can see, Microsoft sees piracy as its biggest competitor."Aug 23 19:21
_GoblinlolAug 23 19:21
_Goblinas I say...."People will have MS products if they can get them for free"Aug 23 19:21
DaemonFCLinux is a bigger competitor than Apple for Server installationsAug 23 19:22
_Goblineven Windows users don't see the value in paying for them.Aug 23 19:22
DaemonFCApple has virtually no presence there and those are profitable customersAug 23 19:22
DaemonFCI'm certain that's what he meansAug 23 19:22
DaemonFC 23 19:23
_Goblinof course....bbl...Aug 23 19:25
DaemonFCyou can say usage share is whatever you want on a server because that will fluctuate wildly depending on who you survey and what you call a serverAug 23 19:25
DaemonFCyou're basically just reading tea leaves no matter what you doAug 23 19:26
DaemonFCthe best way to gauge where Microsoft is at is probably to look at year over year salesAug 23 19:26
DaemonFCthe last quarter was down because it's always down right before a new Windows releaseAug 23 19:27
DaemonFCnobody wants to take a chance and maybe get stuck with the last versionAug 23 19:27
DaemonFCnext quarter will be wickedly upAug 23 19:28
DaemonFCso it's probably just best to compare two years where they've had no major new versionAug 23 19:28
DaemonFCif you do trending you'll get another problem, their products ten years ago weren't what they are nowAug 23 19:29
DaemonFC 23 19:30
DaemonFCif you do the 5 year graph you'll see just how badly Vista hurt them and they've been gradually recovering since thenAug 23 19:30
DaemonFCthat big dip near the end was because of people holding off buying the copies of Vista they otherwise would have while they wait for OctoberAug 23 19:32
DaemonFCthen they start figuring in preorders and their stock is up about 30% from the dip overnightAug 23 19:33
DaemonFCinvestors are pretty fickle, they demand instant gratification or they punish youAug 23 19:33
DaemonFCwhatever happens to Red Hat, on the other hand, will occur more graduallyAug 23 19:37
DaemonFC 23 19:43
DaemonFCAnother report showing that Nokia actually writes four times as much Linux kernel code as Canonical/UbuntuAug 23 19:43
*Xarver has quit (Remote closed the connection)Aug 23 20:00
_GoblinDaemonFC: I never claimed any stats...I simply refute the ones made about Linux by the MS faithful.  Even they, it seems, can't decide on what market share Linux has.  You would think if they are going to spread FUD, they would at least get their story straight.Aug 23 20:03
Diablo-D3the problem with that is the answer doesnt make any senseAug 23 20:04
Diablo-D3you have to define which marketAug 23 20:04
Diablo-D3if its enterprise, the answer is "most of it"Aug 23 20:04
_GoblinI would not seek to answer for any market....Aug 23 20:04
Diablo-D3if its desktop its "5-15% depending on which survey"Aug 23 20:04
_Goblinand neither should the MS faithful....Aug 23 20:04
Diablo-D3which means, merely, 85-95% of the market is wrongAug 23 20:04
_Goblinfor example the 1% is commonly touted, yet it appears even Ballmer has different ideas.Aug 23 20:04
Diablo-D3_Goblin: its about 5-15%Aug 23 20:05
_Goblinagain, thats up for dispute....depending on who you talk to.Aug 23 20:05
Diablo-D3a huge number of linux users dual boot or own second machines for gamingAug 23 20:05
DaemonFCwell, the problem is that since nobody can prove what the market share really is, nobody should even tryAug 23 20:05
Diablo-D3surveys dont accurately measure themAug 23 20:05
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: almostAug 23 20:05
DaemonFCyet Linux people try to spin it more in their favor tooAug 23 20:05
Diablo-D3the problem is, if linux even has 1 user on the desktop, microsoft has to worryAug 23 20:05
_Goblintrue.Aug 23 20:05
DaemonFCit's like presidential approval pollingAug 23 20:05
Diablo-D3microsoft cant win until all desktops are deadAug 23 20:06
DaemonFCif it doesn't affect anything, why do it? if it does, isn't that unethical?Aug 23 20:06
Diablo-D3this is how microsoft played their game and its largely fucked them upAug 23 20:06
Diablo-D3they cant win until they've actually wonAug 23 20:06
_Goblinhence MS shops, cloud computing....MS IMO is trying to enter the pay per play computing market....Aug 23 20:06
Diablo-D3apple can win merely by playing the gameAug 23 20:06
Diablo-D3linux wins merely by existingAug 23 20:06
DaemonFC_Goblin: Funny you should mention thatAug 23 20:06
_Goblinand the MS store will be the pimp of that projectAug 23 20:06
DaemonFCthere's a new time-based serial number systemAug 23 20:07
_Goblindidnt know that.Aug 23 20:07
DaemonFCright now they're using them for 180 trialsAug 23 20:07
DaemonFCbut they could jsut as easily sell you licenses by the month or yearAug 23 20:07
_GoblinI see the MS store being much like a mobile phone shop....get a cheap/free desktop and pay per play in a cloud environment.Aug 23 20:07
DaemonFCgood way to whip small businesses in lineAug 23 20:07
DaemonFCa lot of small businesses haven't upgraded since Windows 2000 or Windows 2003Aug 23 20:08
_Goblinthat idea ticks all the boxes.....constant revenue and lockin.Aug 23 20:08
Diablo-D3_Goblin: this I wouldnt actually mindAug 23 20:08
Diablo-D3you know why?Aug 23 20:08
DaemonFCthis would ensure that they pay Microsoft every year on timeAug 23 20:08
_Goblinwhy?Aug 23 20:08
DaemonFCcause they depend on WindowsAug 23 20:08
Diablo-D3people would quit bitching they lost their shit because their computer "crashed"Aug 23 20:08
Diablo-D3(I wish someone would define "crash", btw, because what does crashing have to do with reinstalling windows?)Aug 23 20:09
DaemonFCthe activation server could just keep track of how many days your license is good forAug 23 20:09
DaemonFCkind of like the KMS systemAug 23 20:09
DaemonFCor you could decommission a server that has 500 days left on its license and apply the remaining 500 days to the new server that replaces itAug 23 20:09
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: wellAug 23 20:09
_Goblinmaybe people could have a Microsoft Meter in their homes......along side their electricity and gas.Aug 23 20:10
DaemonFCjust install whatever version of Windows Server is the latestAug 23 20:10
_Goblingreat idea.....Aug 23 20:10
Diablo-D3I wouldnt mind "paying" (lolololol) for a license that has x daysAug 23 20:10
Diablo-D3because microsoft then can _STOP RELEASING NEW VERSIONS OF WINDOWS_Aug 23 20:10
Diablo-D3they'd have to Debianize their systemAug 23 20:10
DaemonFCwell, if they could do that with home users, they could break down the huge up front license fee into a yearly subscriptionAug 23 20:10
_Goblinwith a cheap desktop system offered as an incentive...Aug 23 20:11
Diablo-D3I wouldnt mind having to pirate windows every x days if this improved windows qualityAug 23 20:11
DaemonFCThey want you to upgrade about every 3 years, a retail copy of Home Premium is about $189Aug 23 20:11
Diablo-D3I mean, it sucks dick to have windows lock up in the middle of a video gameAug 23 20:11
DaemonFCso $63 for a one year subscription to WindowsAug 23 20:11
DaemonFCand you always have the latest versionAug 23 20:11
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: wellAug 23 20:11
Diablo-D3I'd rather monthlyAug 23 20:11
Diablo-D3because there are months I dont use windowsAug 23 20:12
Diablo-D3so I shouldnt have to pay for itAug 23 20:12
DaemonFCkeeps their customers from paying them once, 8 years ago, and still using the same copyAug 23 20:12
_Goblincould Live arcade (or whatever its called) be a sort of trial for this Microsoft idea?Aug 23 20:12
DaemonFCXP Pro was like $199Aug 23 20:12
Diablo-D3_Goblin: no, because no one owns an xboxAug 23 20:12
_Goblinno...they own two or three....(red rings of death)Aug 23 20:12
DaemonFCthey only make like $24.87 if you've used that copy til Windows 7 is outAug 23 20:12
Diablo-D3Ive never met someone who owned an xboxAug 23 20:12
Diablo-D3I think its a muth like those people who voted for bushAug 23 20:13
DaemonFCso they immediately triple their profit per customer with the subscription modelAug 23 20:13
_GoblinIve never met anyone who has had only one....Aug 23 20:13
DaemonFCthere's no way you can camp out on the last versionAug 23 20:13
_Goblinthats why MS made no money......faulty hardwareAug 23 20:13
Diablo-D3microsoft made no money because no one ever bought anyAug 23 20:13
Diablo-D3not 1, not 2, not 3, 0.Aug 23 20:13
_Goblinit was that and the returns on faulty machines.Aug 23 20:13
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: I could see it working like this. Your subscription expires, Windows gives you 7 days to get everything squared away and punch in a new serial numberAug 23 20:14
_Goblinand its failed attempt to push HDVD instead of bluerayAug 23 20:14
DaemonFCif you don't, it deactivates all but the basic functionalityAug 23 20:14
DaemonFCand throws up nag screensAug 23 20:14
DaemonFClike the pirated mode does nowAug 23 20:14
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: heh, or I just get a better crackAug 23 20:15
DaemonFCyou're never actually locked out, it just disables all the premium features and nags youAug 23 20:15
Diablo-D3Ive had to replace my xp crack like 4 timesAug 23 20:15
Diablo-D3nothing microsoft does can actually stop me from hating themAug 23 20:15
DaemonFCI don't think there will be a crackAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3I think they should stop trying and just do what Apple does: produce products that dont piss me offAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: wellAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3if there isnt oneAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3then there goes half their usersAug 23 20:16
DaemonFCthere won't be any OEM SLP code to exploitAug 23 20:16
DaemonFCthat gets rid of the only way to be sure they don't shut you down with the next hotfixAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3seriouslyAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3no one wants windowsAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3they keep it around for the gamesAug 23 20:16
Diablo-D3I can just go buy a damned WiiAug 23 20:17
Diablo-D3microsoft cant stop meAug 23 20:17
DaemonFCI think that's the only thing that's stopping them from renting it outAug 23 20:17
DaemonFCbusinesses would do it thoughAug 23 20:17
Diablo-D3I dunnoAug 23 20:17
DaemonFCthat's why the new time based keys are only in Windows ServerAug 23 20:17
Diablo-D3you know what I should do?Aug 23 20:17
Diablo-D3go into business selling linuxAug 23 20:17
DaemonFCnobody really makes a profit selling Linux as a desktop systemAug 23 20:18
Diablo-D3and make it really windowsyAug 23 20:18
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: because they dont sell the hardware tooAug 23 20:18
DaemonFCmaybe a few ebay scalpers tricking lamers into buyign an Ubuntu CD-R for $10Aug 23 20:18
DaemonFCby saying it's just like WindowsAug 23 20:18
Diablo-D3actually, it is just like windowsAug 23 20:18
Diablo-D3its kind of disgustingAug 23 20:18
_GoblinDaemonFC: look at how many area's of their business MS are selling..Look at almost every MS "innovation" has lost out to competition.  Factor that in with high license fees and lock in.  The future doesnt look so bright.....Aug 23 20:18
DaemonFCit's not all badAug 23 20:18
_GoblinlolAug 23 20:18
DaemonFCtheir networking is pretty goodAug 23 20:18
_Goblinthats faithAug 23 20:18
_Goblinlol...Aug 23 20:19
DaemonFCActive Directory Server tooAug 23 20:19
_Goblinmaybe then you can explain why major government bodies are moving away already.....Aug 23 20:19
DaemonFCa lot of Linux server uptake is because they mimic, reverse engineer, or otherwise clone those protocolsAug 23 20:19
_Goblinmaybe you can explain how the armed services are falling foul of MS systems.Aug 23 20:19
_GoblinI can give examples if you wish.Aug 23 20:19
DaemonFCI've never seen a government computer that wasn't running WindowsAug 23 20:20
DaemonFCI'm sure their datacenters are another storyAug 23 20:20
_Goblinhow many government systems have you seen?Aug 23 20:20
_GoblinI take it you havent seen the French Police force....Aug 23 20:20
DaemonFClibraries, license branches, court records systemsAug 23 20:20
DaemonFClots moreAug 23 20:20
_Goblinim sure.  But the fact people are starting to move away.....Aug 23 20:21
DaemonFCif they are, I'm not seeing itAug 23 20:21
_GoblinPNCAug 23 20:21
_Goblinsorry....Police National computer......Aug 23 20:21
cubezzzha!Aug 23 20:22
_Goblinthere are other systems too...I read a paper on them all in the UK the goverment has many non Microsoft systems.Aug 23 20:23
_GoblinI believe customs use a Linux based system too.Aug 23 20:24
cubezzzUSA is still Microsoftland sure, but Europe is a different story of courseAug 23 20:24
_Goblincubezzz: You from UK?Aug 23 20:24
DaemonFCactually since you mention it, based on the system profiling I've seen, a lot of antivirus software crashes the system just about as often as the malwareAug 23 20:24
cubezzzpeople move to where they get the best value, and that's not MicrosoftAug 23 20:24
_Goblinvery true.Aug 23 20:24
cubezzz_Goblin, Canada now, I was born in N. IrelandAug 23 20:24
DaemonFCMicrosoft Security Essentials is what I'm usingAug 23 20:24
DaemonFCdoesn't use unsupported and dangerous scanning methods, most of the rest of them doAug 23 20:25
_Goblincubezzz: Wow, Ive relatives in Limerick and in Canada....snap!Aug 23 20:25
_Goblinalthough Limerick is S irelandAug 23 20:25
DaemonFCMicrosoft can adjust their bulk pricingAug 23 20:25
DaemonFCto be more affordable than Red Hat or NovellAug 23 20:25
_Goblinyep but then what about the shareholders?Aug 23 20:26
cubezzzI'd like to think it's not all Microsoft in Ireland nowadaysAug 23 20:26
DaemonFCif you want to buy a copy of Windows Server Enterprise Edition, it could be $1,200Aug 23 20:26
_GoblinDaemonfC: and all of its other grubby fingers in numerous other pies...Aug 23 20:26
DaemonFCbut businesses get it for about 1/10th as muchAug 23 20:26
DaemonFCtiered pricing systemAug 23 20:26
_Goblintry offering discounts at the moment.....some firms are struggling to pay wages....forget about buy more MS junk.Aug 23 20:26
DaemonFCactually, all the major Linux distros are trying to cannibalize each other anywayAug 23 20:27
DaemonFCwhy should Microsoft kill them when they're eating each other?Aug 23 20:27
cubezzzLFS anyone? :)Aug 23 20:27
DaemonFC"Switch to our distro and we'll support the Linux you're using now for 5 years"Aug 23 20:28
_GoblinDaemonfC: that is the single most silly thing Ive ever heard....the diversity of Linux is what is its strength......Windows has to be "one size fits all"Aug 23 20:28
DaemonFCNovell will support your RHEL installations for five years if you switch to SuseAug 23 20:28
cubezzzof course, Gates and Ballmer need more money, it's obvious! :)Aug 23 20:28
DaemonFCOracle is also trying to kill Red HatAug 23 20:28
_Goblindaemonfc: and that size is rapidly becoming too tight for many.Aug 23 20:28
DaemonFCthey're all attacking Red Hat and trying to suck all their blood outAug 23 20:28
DaemonFCthey're doing the legwork for MicrosoftAug 23 20:29
_Goblinlol...Aug 23 20:29
_GoblinnoAug 23 20:29
_GoblinMicrosoft will defeat itself IMO as people begin to realize whats been happening over the last 10 years.....Aug 23 20:29
DaemonFCright now it's easy for themAug 23 20:29
DaemonFCcause Red Hat does all the workAug 23 20:29
DaemonFCall they have to do is clone RHEL and hire some support guysAug 23 20:30
_Goblin7's biggest competitor is XP.... If XP makes no money how does it fund its grubby pie fingers?Aug 23 20:30
_Goblin*MicrosoftAug 23 20:30
DaemonFCXP isn't making money for Microsoft, it's spent but the copies they sold are still runningAug 23 20:30
DaemonFCnot generating any more moneyAug 23 20:30
_Goblinyep that what I mean...Aug 23 20:31
_Goblinthats why its a big competitor to 7 and why MS may defeat itself with its own products.Aug 23 20:31
DaemonFCWindows 7 on the netbook will be a disasterAug 23 20:31
DaemonFCthe Windows XP ones run greatAug 23 20:31
DaemonFCthe Windows 7 Starter ones will run like crapAug 23 20:32
_Goblinno they don't- I bought one and used it (and reviewed it on my site)Aug 23 20:32
DaemonFCI think anyone that wants Windows on their netbook better hurry while XP is still aroundAug 23 20:32
_GoblinXP was.........reasonable......great.....definately not.Aug 23 20:32
_GoblinMy Acer netbook struggled with a basic XP installation....Aug 23 20:32
DaemonFCI doubt thatAug 23 20:33
_GoblinI blogged about it at the time.Aug 23 20:33
DaemonFCI've ran XP on a 550 Mhz K6/2 with 320 megs of RAMAug 23 20:33
DaemonFCit was still quite useableAug 23 20:33
_Goblininfact I blogged on holiday on it....Aug 23 20:33
DaemonFCI've also used it on a 1.3 Ghz Celeron with 256 megs of RAMAug 23 20:33
DaemonFCstill useableAug 23 20:33
_GoblinAcer ASpire One?  Thats a netbook.Aug 23 20:33
_Goblin16gig SSDAug 23 20:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] the walled world: keeping the povs at bay HT @waldyriousAug 23 20:34
DaemonFCyeah, I doubt your netbook is slower than some of the systems I've used XP onAug 23 20:34
_Goblin1.3ghz? I should hope XP is usable......XP is old code.Aug 23 20:34
DaemonFC"income disparity" ftw!Aug 23 20:34
cubezzzXP would run like a turd with 256 megAug 23 20:34
DaemonFClets jsut give them all our money since they don't build their own civilizationAug 23 20:34
cubezzzeven 512 meg is slowAug 23 20:34
DaemonFCI mean those primates will gladly sit on oil, diamonds, and gold and silverAug 23 20:35
_GoblinTell you what....On monday I will make a youtube vid showing XP's speed on my machine.Aug 23 20:35
DaemonFCright under their feetAug 23 20:35
_Goblinthen you can judge for yourself....Aug 23 20:35
DaemonFCthey could be the richest people on Earth of the governments in that area would stop being overthrown every monthAug 23 20:35
_Goblinmaybe its because you are used to home Windows systems and that is acceptable....for a linux user the XP performance was unsatisfactory.Aug 23 20:35
DaemonFCand another banana republic gets set upAug 23 20:35
DaemonFCpeople living like it was 1,000 years agoAug 23 20:36
cubezzzlike Afghanistan? :)Aug 23 20:37
DaemonFCif there were AK-47s and rocket launchers 1,000 years agoAug 23 20:37
DaemonFCyeahAug 23 20:37
DaemonFCAfghanistan preciselyAug 23 20:37
cubezzzthe world is kind of crazyAug 23 20:37
DaemonFCthey don't value life in those third world countriesAug 23 20:38
DaemonFCthey jsut take bullets for the local warlordAug 23 20:38
cubezzzLinux really is interesting, you can download the kernel and modules, tweak it... people don't understand how great that isAug 23 20:38
DaemonFCit's insaneAug 23 20:38
cubezzzDaemonFC, yup, we have to be thankful living in North America reallyAug 23 20:39
DaemonFCthey have nothing else to live for other than turf wars that never endAug 23 20:39
DaemonFC(Somalia)Aug 23 20:39
DaemonFC80% of them in some regions have AIDSAug 23 20:40
DaemonFC(or more)Aug 23 20:40
DaemonFCmost of the African continent is as close to hell as you'll get in the entire worldAug 23 20:40
*cubezzz-laptop ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 23 20:41
DaemonFCuneducated, backwards people, keep reproducing, contaminated drinking water, no food, AIDS, oppressive climateAug 23 20:41
DaemonFCmight live to be 30Aug 23 20:42
DaemonFCof course what happens in places like that is that more than half the population are teenagersAug 23 20:42
DaemonFCthen you get child soldiers and suchAug 23 20:43
DaemonFCcubezzz: Be thankful you were born anywhere but there is more like itAug 23 20:44
DaemonFCeven Mexico isn't nearly that badAug 23 20:44
_GoblinQuote DaemonFC: "uneducated, backwards people"  - how compassionate......Aug 23 20:54
_Goblinseem ripe for the exploiting by MS then (IMO)Aug 23 20:55
DaemonFCyeah, just as soon as they have computers in about 500 more yearsAug 23 20:55
DaemonFCripe for the picking :PAug 23 20:55
_Goblintell me is it a standard proprietary view that peoples worth is dependent on how much money you can make from them?Aug 23 20:56
_Goblinactually Im being stupid....of course it is.Aug 23 20:56
DaemonFCno, but they have "poor me" syndromeAug 23 20:56
DaemonFCand "Blame everyone else" syndromeAug 23 20:56
_Goblinso?  Id say they have good cause......Aug 23 20:56
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 23 20:56
_Goblinlets look at the developing countries and look back into our own histories....Aug 23 20:57
DaemonFCthey don't better themselves, they're a group of beggars and complainersAug 23 20:57
DaemonFCmillions of themAug 23 20:57
_Goblinhave we acted in their best interests or our own?Aug 23 20:57
DaemonFC"developing country" is too kind of termAug 23 20:57
DaemonFCpolitically correct termAug 23 20:58
_Goblinhas the US and UK government got no blame in the situations many developing countries find themselves in?Aug 23 20:58
DaemonFC"permanently undeveloped country" would be more fittingAug 23 20:58
_Goblinto somone like you...probably....Aug 23 20:58
DaemonFCdeveloping presumes that they are advancingAug 23 20:58
DaemonFCor even have the potentialAug 23 20:58
DaemonFCor even may gain the potentialAug 23 20:59
_Goblinso the people are worthless then? (by your standards)Aug 23 20:59
DaemonFCthe UK is responsible for more of the atrocities over there than anyoneAug 23 20:59
DaemonFCmarched in, raped, pillaged, and plunderedAug 23 21:00
_Goblindon't lets go down a historical route....Aug 23 21:00
DaemonFCset them up for the next few hundred years of being undeveloped and begging more advanced countriesAug 23 21:00
DaemonFCthe French had/has a hand in quite a bit of itAug 23 21:00
_GoblinIll agree the UK (like many others) has a past to appologize for, but a saving grace could be that we ourselves are more developed now and it wouldnt happen again....Aug 23 21:01
DaemonFCthere's a lot of fingers in that particular pie and most of them are not from the United StatesAug 23 21:01
_Goblinlets look into recent history of the US...Aug 23 21:01
DaemonFCthe Russians also manipulate former Soviet satellite statesAug 23 21:01
DaemonFCso why don't you arbitrarily hate Russians too while you're at it?Aug 23 21:01
_GoblinRemember how the US outfitted the whats known as the talaban today with weapons to fight the Russians.Aug 23 21:02
*schestowitz wakes upAug 23 21:02
DaemonFCstill got a better result than what would happen if the Russians got a foothold thereAug 23 21:02
DaemonFCand expandedAug 23 21:02
_Goblin?Aug 23 21:02
_Goblinseriously?Aug 23 21:02
DaemonFCyesAug 23 21:02
DaemonFCthey would have seized the oil fields, expanded, taken over pretty much all of Europe by nowAug 23 21:03
DaemonFCall the middle easyAug 23 21:03
DaemonFC&eastAug 23 21:03
_GoblinYep, I can see your reasoning....the Invasion of Iraq and afganistan.......of all comes down to oil...Aug 23 21:03
DaemonFCand we would probably be just trying to stop them from getting further than thatAug 23 21:03
_Goblinthe civilians being brought into a war they didnt ask for.Aug 23 21:03
_Goblinyep.....God bless the US/UKAug 23 21:04
DaemonFCactually, it's worse in Iraq now than when Saddam was there just because the religious fanatics have taken the governmentAug 23 21:04
_Goblinbut you still maintain that fighting the Russians was good?Aug 23 21:05
_Goblinok...Aug 23 21:05
DaemonFCthe Russians were invading AfghanistanAug 23 21:05
_Goblinlol.....Aug 23 21:05
DaemonFCI didn't say anything about IraqAug 23 21:05
DaemonFCthey would have taken it too thoughAug 23 21:05
_Goblinyes but this "war on terror" .....?Aug 23 21:06
DaemonFCthe Russian military, even at modern strength, could plow right over all of Europe within a matter of monthsAug 23 21:06
_GoblinEspecially if the US arrived late like they did during WW2Aug 23 21:06
DaemonFCthey could take countries like Norway probably without even firing a shotAug 23 21:06
_Goblinthe point is.....All governments are not blameless....its the civilians like me and you that suffer for the decisions of a few people.Aug 23 21:07
DaemonFCHitler's rise to power had more to do with cowardice on the part of the UK and France than anything we didAug 23 21:07
_Goblinlol...Aug 23 21:08
DaemonFCall of europe was trying to appease him until he had all his forces built up for an invasion of THEM tooAug 23 21:08
_Goblinso why did it take the US so long to help?Aug 23 21:08
DaemonFCthen they did something about itAug 23 21:08
*sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovellAug 23 21:08
DaemonFCthe UK was probably the main most directly responsible for allowing Hitler room to growAug 23 21:08
_Goblinand what about Vietnam?  It seems the threat of communism overpowered the US too....(if we are talking Iron Curtain Russia)Aug 23 21:09
DaemonFCthe French were trying to fight back the communists before we got thereAug 23 21:09
Diablo-D3you knowAug 23 21:09
_Goblinno...Aug 23 21:09
Diablo-D3stargate the movie is a good parable about the destruction of microsoftAug 23 21:09
_Goblinthe french foriegn legion was fighting....Aug 23 21:10
DaemonFCactually, the French jsut seem to strategically retreatAug 23 21:10
DaemonFClet others get their hands dirtyAug 23 21:10
DaemonFCno matter which warAug 23 21:10
_Goblinthe french foriegn legion was fighting....I repeat.Aug 23 21:10
Diablo-D3a bunch of military guys goes through the "Stargate" (the internet) to nuke aliens (Bill Gates)Aug 23 21:10
DaemonFCthe only war they kicked any ass in was when they were fighting themselvesAug 23 21:10
_GoblinMind you, credit due....the US managed to drag Australia into that one.Aug 23 21:10
DaemonFCdrag them my assAug 23 21:10
DaemonFCmore like they were all too eager as long as they got their cut in the end while still badmouthing usAug 23 21:11
_Goblinand they still couldnt ferrit out a few "undeveloped" people (your probable words) in a jungle...Aug 23 21:11
DaemonFCAustralia was just another co-conspiratorAug 23 21:11
DaemonFCwhen the enemy is willing to die by the hundreds just to take out a few of your guysAug 23 21:12
DaemonFCwhat do you do?Aug 23 21:12
DaemonFCkill them all is the only way to defeat themAug 23 21:12
DaemonFCif you don't have the stomach for that, don't start the warAug 23 21:12
_Goblinlook this conversation isnt about US/UK/French or anything like I say we dont make the decisions others do.....My government apparently speaks for me as yours does you......Aug 23 21:12
_Goblinfact is they don't.....Aug 23 21:13
_Goblinand its our responsiblity to help developing nations...Aug 23 21:13
_GoblinIMOAug 23 21:13
_GoblinJust because they wont be buying Windows 7 doesnt make them subhuman.Aug 23 21:13
DaemonFCyou have millions of people in the third world who have nothing to live for and a bunch of hand me down Soviet weapons to blow each other up withAug 23 21:13
DaemonFCand you if you get in their wayAug 23 21:13
_Goblinand you speak for all of them?Aug 23 21:13
_Goblinhow do you know?Aug 23 21:14
_GoblinI take it you dont have children...if you did you would see how childish your post sounds.Aug 23 21:14
DaemonFCactually, the cold war was "giants in the playground"Aug 23 21:14
DaemonFCand our "toys" are now in the hands of primativesAug 23 21:14
_Goblinand Im very pleased that your view does not represent that of the general US view.Aug 23 21:15
DaemonFCwell, it's like the blacks and the mexicans forming street gangs in major citiesAug 23 21:15
_GoblinThe US people (in my experience) are warm, friendly and are completely the reverse of anyone Ive ever met....Aug 23 21:15
DaemonFCbest way to deal with that problem? give them more ammunitionAug 23 21:16
DaemonFCcause otherwise they may run out and have to go home earlyAug 23 21:16
_Goblingood god.Aug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3wait wait waitAug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3we're friendly?Aug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3since when?Aug 23 21:16
_Goblinyou really are a vile individual...Aug 23 21:16
_Goblinnot you Diablo...Aug 23 21:16
_GoblinI mean DaemonFC.Aug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3yes, but you're claiming americans are warm and friendlyAug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3we are most decidedly notAug 23 21:16
_Goblinall the ones Ive met are.Aug 23 21:16
Diablo-D3we invented the nukeAug 23 21:17
_Goblinthe general populas didnt.Aug 23 21:17
_GoblinIm sure you didnt.Aug 23 21:17
DaemonFCand if it wasn't us, it would be the SovietsAug 23 21:17
Diablo-D3I coul dhaveAug 23 21:17
DaemonFCor the NazisAug 23 21:17
DaemonFCor Imperial JapanAug 23 21:17
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: the ... yeahAug 23 21:17
DaemonFCwho would have used them on usAug 23 21:17
Diablo-D3germany was well on their way to oneAug 23 21:17
Diablo-D3germany's research gave soviet russia's theirsAug 23 21:17
DaemonFCyou want to talk high school ethics debate, I think we just were lucky enough to use them firstAug 23 21:17
_GoblinDiablo-D3: The nuke could be the thing that has prevented more WW......M.A.D and all that.Aug 23 21:18
Diablo-D3_Goblin: at any rate, you and DaemonFC are both a little on the twit sideAug 23 21:18
schestowitz> Aug 23 21:18
schestowitz<DaemonFC> who would have used them on us  Aug 23 21:18
schestowitz [citation needed]Aug 23 21:18
DaemonFCif Hitler had the first one, he would have put it on a V-2Aug 23 21:18
Diablo-D3and btw, DaemonFC, you're wrong about the cold warAug 23 21:18
DaemonFCinstead of a city block of London disappearing, it would have been 90% of LondonAug 23 21:18
_GoblinDiablo-D3:  Coming from you I am not particularly offended......sorry.Aug 23 21:18
*sdgsd has quit ("Page closed")Aug 23 21:18
Diablo-D3the cold war was the third movement of the second world warAug 23 21:19
Diablo-D3it started because soviet russia didnt want to give up what they found in germanyAug 23 21:19
DaemonFCif the Japanese had had them first, they would have used them on the US and then in their war effort against the ChineseAug 23 21:19
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: dude noAug 23 21:19
Diablo-D3they would have nuked the mainland firstAug 23 21:19
Diablo-D3they could care less about the USAug 23 21:19
_GoblinDoes it matter?Aug 23 21:19
Diablo-D3the attack on pearl harbor was the act of a madman without the orders from his governmentAug 23 21:20
_GoblinThis conversation started about DaemonFC cheapening people....Aug 23 21:20
DaemonFCthe goal was to break the enemy morale and destroy their ability to make warAug 23 21:20
DaemonFCI say we were two for twoAug 23 21:20
Diablo-D3_Goblin: so how did we get to hitler?Aug 23 21:20
_Goblinand my view was that we have a responsibility to help them in the developing worlds...Aug 23 21:20
Diablo-D3I mean, Godwin's law and all, but wtfAug 23 21:20
DaemonFCwe don't owe them anythingAug 23 21:21
_Goblindiablo-d3:  We were talking about responsiblity.....and it moved to a history lesson...Aug 23 21:21
DaemonFCyou want to give them your money, I won't stop youAug 23 21:21
DaemonFCthey'll want more tomorrowAug 23 21:21
_GoblinDaemonFC:  I am so pleased I live in the UK and not in your town.Aug 23 21:21
_Goblinits called human compassion....compassion for others less fortunate than oneself.Aug 23 21:22
DaemonFCyou want to keep giving and they'll keep takingAug 23 21:22
DaemonFCthey won't build anything with it, they'll jsut know who to ask for more when they're hungry againAug 23 21:22
_Goblinand my point was, some of the situations these people find themselves in is due to decisions made by our governments.Aug 23 21:22
DaemonFCmisguided compassion is worse than anythingAug 23 21:22
_Goblinas I say nobody is blameless....Aug 23 21:22
DaemonFCyou don't get itAug 23 21:22
schestowitz"Russell King has announced that the ARM-related mailing lists on will be shut down immediately. He is, it seems, not happy about some of the criticism he has received about the operation of those lists. So the lists will be moving, though exactly where is not entirely clear. " 23 21:23
_Goblinand how dare you say my compassion is misguided...Aug 23 21:23
_Goblinfar better than yours.Aug 23 21:23
DaemonFCfeed them? why? so they can live long enough to have children and they either need 4 times as much money or they all starve a couple years later?Aug 23 21:23
_Goblinyou almost want to suggest a culling of humans...Aug 23 21:23
Diablo-D3schestowitz: wtfAug 23 21:23
Diablo-D3russell needs smacked downAug 23 21:23
Diablo-D3what a twitAug 23 21:23
schestowitz "Re: Mailing List Etiquette"Aug 23 21:23
DaemonFC_Goblin: They'll cull themselves, they keep trying, but we keep intervening and giving them handoutsAug 23 21:24
DaemonFCmaking the problem twice as bad tomorrow to get them to stop bickering nowAug 23 21:24
schestowitz"Your constant whinging is the reason for the action which has now been taken.  The lists are now off line until future notice, when I can deal with the crap that constantly pours out of your keyboard."Aug 23 21:24
schestowitzCould there be anti-ARM agent provocateurs?Aug 23 21:24
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from _GoblinAug 23 21:24
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to _GoblinAug 23 21:25
_GoblinDaemonFC: Tell me that if you were living in Somalia with your family, you wouldnt do everything possible for them?Aug 23 21:25
*schestowitz removes channel operator status from schestowitzAug 23 21:25
Diablo-D3goddamnitAug 23 21:25
Diablo-D3everyone shut up\Aug 23 21:25
DaemonFC_Goblin: It's their problem, I wish them lots of luck figuring it out for themselvesAug 23 21:25
Diablo-D3no more fucking whining about stupid shitAug 23 21:25
DaemonFCI'm not going to make their problem worse by trying to helpAug 23 21:25
Diablo-D3either spout vile about microsoft or stfu.Aug 23 21:25
schestowitzWho is Pavel Machek ?Aug 23 21:26
_GoblinDiablo-D3 since its me and daemon talking and only you the spirit of democracy Ill carry on.Aug 23 21:26
schestowitz 23 21:26
_Goblinand Diablo I think you meant to say "Bile" not Vile.Aug 23 21:26
DaemonFC_Goblin: If you set up a system where you give someone money every month and food every month, and they never have to work and the money will never stop coming they become fatter, lazier, and even less industriousAug 23 21:27
DaemonFCand more people want to get on the systemAug 23 21:27
_Goblinalthough I agree MS is pretty vile in its practices.Aug 23 21:27
Diablo-D3_Goblin: er, whateverAug 23 21:27
Diablo-D3schestowitz: pavel is one of the big dogsAug 23 21:27
_GoblinDaemonFC: We have that in the UK....its called the Benefit system.Aug 23 21:27
DaemonFCthen they have childrenAug 23 21:27
schestowitz 23 21:27
Diablo-D3schestowitz: he does a lot of the sleep related stuffAug 23 21:27
schestowitzThis guy is trollingAug 23 21:27
DaemonFCand want money and food for them so they can grow up and have lots of little welfare children of their ownAug 23 21:27
_Goblinbut the point is....whats the alternative?  let them die?Aug 23 21:28
DaemonFCit never stops, you can either exponentially increase the handoutsAug 23 21:28
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: shush alreadyAug 23 21:28
schestowitz 23 21:28
DaemonFCor let them fend for themselves while the problem is manageable and they don't depend on youAug 23 21:28
*cubezzz-laptop has quit ("Leaving")Aug 23 21:30
_Goblinin the spirit of remaining relatively on topic, can we agree we have different viewpoints.  I do hope that some of what you said though was a joke I was not getting...Compassion is one of the things that makes us human and to suggest a withdrawl of that compassion would be a dark day for humanity.Aug 23 21:30
schestowitzOh, look. Borat writes for ECT. 23 21:30
DaemonFCif we give out aide it should be aideAug 23 21:30
DaemonFCthere should be a benchmark for what is done with the aide, and if all they do is routinely squander it, it should be withdrawnAug 23 21:31
DaemonFCforeign aide is usually just bribery to the local regime for political favors laterAug 23 21:31
DaemonFCthe people still starve while the local warlord builds a 14th palaceAug 23 21:31
schestowitzNokia is coming to sub-notebooks too: 23 21:32
_Goblinschestowitz: After Ive recorded a youtube vid of how bad XP on my netbook is, I am installing Puppy on it....unless you have any better suggestions for an Acer Aspire One.Aug 23 21:33
schestowitz"Are Macs for left-handed people?" < >Aug 23 21:33
DaemonFC_Goblin: I suggest you make a respin of your XP discAug 23 21:33
DaemonFCit's fairly easyAug 23 21:34
DaemonFCmay even solve the problem you are havingAug 23 21:34
schestowitzSpreads the same "1%" BSAug 23 21:34
schestowitzThat lie needs to endAug 23 21:34
schestowitzThe Microsoft press spreads itAug 23 21:34
_GoblinDaemonFC: Ive already experiences are regarded as acceptable by other XP users on the netbook..Aug 23 21:34
DaemonFCthey release a lot of hotfixes that you have to requestAug 23 21:35
DaemonFCthey don't all end up on Windows UpdateAug 23 21:35
_GoblinDaemonFC: Its simply that Linux performance has spoiled me to expect more.Aug 23 21:35
DaemonFC 23 21:36
_GoblinDaemonFC: Ive had the thing back to the shop twice....Ive had two replacements since owning it and Ive also used a friends one (as well as looking on the net of other users experiences)Aug 23 21:36
DaemonFCthere's also addon packs for IE 8, DirectX 9 March 2009 , and WMP 11Aug 23 21:36
_GoblinDaemonFC: what I am experiencing is what is considered "fit for purpose"Aug 23 21:36
DaemonFCI could probably fix itAug 23 21:36
_GoblinI bought the machine in July 09Aug 23 21:36
_Goblinsorry JuneAug 23 21:36
_Goblinfor my holiday.Aug 23 21:37
_GoblinTo be fair, Im not even bothered if Puppy fouls the system, this netbook has no worth to me with XP on it anyway...its far too slow to be of use....Aug 23 21:37
DaemonFCI don't think I've ever used the original XP disc except as a template for a custom setupAug 23 21:37
_GoblinYou would think I would have learned my lesson with owning an MDA Mail and Windows mobile.Aug 23 21:38
_GoblinBallmer must laugh his ass off at people like me.Aug 23 21:38
DaemonFCI wouldn't run any OS with only 256 megs of RAMAug 23 21:38
_Goblinniether would I....this netbook has 1gig.Aug 23 21:38
DaemonFCthen XP should run jsut dandyAug 23 21:39
DaemonFCI've ran XP with far less than thatAug 23 21:39
DaemonFCwhat are you trying to run on it? POV Ray?Aug 23 21:39
DaemonFClolAug 23 21:39
_Goblinyes.....but a Windows users version of "dandy" and mine are completely different.....As I say, Ive been spoiled by Linux into expecting more.Aug 23 21:39
_Goblinand no DaemonFC....Aug 23 21:40
DaemonFC_Goblin: 23 21:40
Diablo-D3povray would actually run well on an atomAug 23 21:40
_Goblinall I wanted was to have Chrome, a small IRC client and Thunderbird running at the same time without constant hanging or the HD light flashing in a fit.Aug 23 21:40
Diablo-D3I ran it on a 486, after allAug 23 21:41
_Goblinit seems that XP and a netbook are incapable of doing that at what I regard as an acceptable speed...Aug 23 21:41
schestowitz "OK, I doubt many people have followed this British soap opera, but it's quite funny. John Sawers, the new head of M16, the UK spy agency, inadvertently posted (well, his wife did) personal details of the family on Facebook. So much for secrecy.Aug 23 21:42
schestowitz"Aug 23 21:42
_GoblinDaemonFC: as I say, for a Windows home user this speed might be acceptable and one they are used to.  I am not.  I expect more, especially when I paid extra for a proprietary solution.Aug 23 21:42
_GoblinSchestowitz: I covered this (briefly) a while ago on my blog: 23 21:43
schestowitz"just unfollowed @glynmoody; not cause he's nothing interesting to say, the opposite, too much interesting stuff; will stick to his blog now" 23 21:44
schestowitz_Goblin: be warned that the demon injects Windows content into this channelAug 23 21:44
_GoblinI saw....Aug 23 21:46
_Goblinthats why I dont like being OP!Aug 23 21:46
DaemonFCChrome, and IRC client, and Thunderbird?Aug 23 21:47
_Goblinit puts me on the spot as to if its trolling, vileness or simply stupidity!Aug 23 21:47
DaemonFCyou can run all that in 1 gig easily without hard disk thrashingAug 23 21:47
_Goblinas I say, its the time it takes to complete tasks.....Aug 23 21:47
schestowitzThe JBoss man's depressed... 23 21:48
DaemonFCnot much time reallyAug 23 21:48
_Goblinthe Linux version of the same netbook was blisteringly fast.Aug 23 21:48
_Goblinand do please ask why I didnt want that one....Aug 23 21:48
DaemonFCI'd assume you're leaving it bogged down with Norton or somethingAug 23 21:48
_Goblinno...Aug 23 21:48
schestowitzDongleAug 23 21:48
_Goblinyep.....the ironic thing was when I reached the holiday destination I hardwired the connection with the provided broadband!Aug 23 21:49
_Goblindidnt even need the damn dongle!Aug 23 21:49
DaemonFCshouldn't it be wireless?Aug 23 21:49
schestowitz   IBM, Other Multinationals "Detaching" From the US  < > Ah! The 'free' marketAug 23 21:50
_Goblinyep....Aug 23 21:50
_Goblinthe connection wasnt....Aug 23 21:50
schestowitzGotta love a little bit of that 'freedom' (As in free market)Aug 23 21:50
_Goblinit was hardwired or nothing.Aug 23 21:50
_GoblinI think on the basis of this conversation I will do a before and after video of the Acer Netbook......Aug 23 21:51
DaemonFChttp://www.ibmandtheholocaust.comAug 23 21:51
_Goblinit will be interesting to show just how much quicker it is with Linux whilst retaining all of the functionality.Aug 23 21:52
schestowitzHere is why I don't read /. anymore. They advertise Microsoft. 23 21:52
DaemonFCCan you even use a touchscreen in GNOME or KDE?Aug 23 21:53
_GoblinI refuse to buy from a company that "recommends Windows Vista"  if the company recommends that then they clearly do not know anything about what they are selling....Aug 23 21:54
*Eruaran has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Aug 23 21:54
DaemonFCDell recommends Windows :)Aug 23 21:54 me how many wouldbe 7 users are using that feature.Aug 23 21:54
_GoblinMS must have liked the NDSAug 23 21:54
DaemonFC_Goblin: They'll be selling them, they already sell them with VistaAug 23 21:55
DaemonFCthey just don't work as wellAug 23 21:55
_Goblinyep....and I see them jumping off the shelves.Aug 23 21:55
_GoblinlolAug 23 21:55
DaemonFCand 10 years from now it'll be all anyone usesAug 23 21:55
DaemonFCand Mac and Linux will be accusing Windows of copying themAug 23 21:55
_GoblinWell you could argue that MS have copied it from Nintendo....Aug 23 21:56
_Goblinor if you want to go further back....Aug 23 21:56
_Goblinthe ZX spectrum and its lightpen.Aug 23 21:56
_Goblinoh and by the way I saw that MS promo vid.Aug 23 21:57
_Goblinfrightening.....Aug 23 21:57
DaemonFCThat's why the Windows 7 taskbar looks like it does btwAug 23 21:57
_Goblinevery facet of our lives having a MS logo.....Aug 23 21:57
DaemonFCbut even if an application isn't designed for a touchscreen, it still works just as wellAug 23 21:57
_Goblinshame Ballmers wet dream is looking less likely every day.Aug 23 21:57
schestowitz 23 21:57
DaemonFCI've used Firefox and Opera on Windows 7 with a touchscreenAug 23 21:57
DaemonFCworks just as well as in IEAug 23 21:57
_Goblinwow.....Aug 23 21:57
_GoblinMS given up on the browser war then?Aug 23 21:58
schestowitzDaemonFC: sure you can use touchscreen in LinuxAug 23 21:58
schestowitzDon't be a sillt wabbitAug 23 21:58
DaemonFCso you don't need special applications for itAug 23 21:58
Diablo-D3X directly supports touchscreensAug 23 21:58
Diablo-D3so stfuAug 23 21:58
Diablo-D3it also natively supports wacom tabletsAug 23 21:58
DaemonFCI saw a few drivers for specific models in the kernelAug 23 21:58
schestowitz 23 21:58
DaemonFCprobably nothing that you're likely to have, just something a Linux kernel developer hasAug 23 21:59
DaemonFClike wifi and TV tuner cards for the first yearsAug 23 21:59
Diablo-D3schestowitz: so, when are you going to ban DaemonFC again?Aug 23 21:59
schestowitz 23 21:59
schestowitzDiablo-D3: ask _Goblin Aug 23 21:59
Diablo-D3_Goblin: do it.Aug 23 21:59
schestowitzDaemonFC is not afraid of himAug 23 21:59
schestowitzBut he doesn't do anything to be banned nowAug 23 22:00
DaemonFCso if I load Firefox on Ubuntu or want to navigate through GNOME or resize windows with my fingers, or bring up menus and copy and paste and drag and drop files, it'll do that?Aug 23 22:01
DaemonFCor is it jsut a few apps with a few models of screens?Aug 23 22:01
schestowitzNo.Aug 23 22:02
schestowitzVIsta 7 is rubbishAug 23 22:02
schestowitzMicrosoft knows itAug 23 22:02
DaemonFCseems to me that proper desktop integration for touchscreens in GNOME or KDE is probably 3-5 years outAug 23 22:02
schestowitzSo it's trying to use hardware to spice it upAug 23 22:02
schestowitz"What is New with Vista 7?"Aug 23 22:02
schestowitzMicrosoft: "oh! It has touchscreen"Aug 23 22:02
schestowitz"No, no, but it's hardrware"Aug 23 22:02
schestowitzMicrosoft: "yes, but now it's supported"Aug 23 22:03
schestowitz"But wait, Linux has done this _for years_"Aug 23 22:03
schestowitzMicrosoft: "yeah, we tend to be behind"Aug 23 22:03
schestowitzIt's all marletingAug 23 22:03
DaemonFClike how Ubuntu has hardly changed in the last 3 years except some of your applications crash and burn when they play audio? :DAug 23 22:03
schestowitz*MarketingAug 23 22:03
schestowitzUbuntu != LinuxAug 23 22:03
DaemonFCnobody cares if there's 300 new drivers that only matter if you're on big iron, some drivers for consumer hardware would be nice thoughAug 23 22:04
schestowitzKDE 3: 23 22:04
DaemonFCbut the big iron stuff makes the kernel lines of source go up like crazyAug 23 22:04
DaemonFCso it's good theaterAug 23 22:04
schestowitzKDE4: 23 22:04
schestowitzMicrosoft relies on people being _srupid_Aug 23 22:05
schestowitzNews:Aug 23 22:05
schestowitz 23 22:05
schestowitz"Windows 7 will be released soon, and although there is actually lots of positive buzz about their latest product (in comparison to a lot of negative buzz about Vista), there simply aren't that many new features in 7."Aug 23 22:05
DaemonFCso if there's 3 million lines of source and only 300 of those lines may matter to me, is there any reason for me to care?Aug 23 22:05
schestowitz"I maintain the suspicion that the whole Windows Mojave experiment was just a ploy by Microsoft to see if they could get away with repackaging and renaming Vista with only a few minor improvements. No more improvement than I would expect with each subsequent release of Ubuntu. The difference is that Ubuntu takes six months to put out a new release, and Microsoft takes at least two years."Aug 23 22:05
DaemonFCI might get a whole new driver that matters to me about every 4 yearsAug 23 22:05
schestowitzThe oldest PR scam in the book: (Ellison's salary drops to $1)Aug 23 22:07
schestowitzOh no... poor Ellison.. he's so poor and humble... let's buy Oracle to help himAug 23 22:07
schestowitzApple and Google plays the same stupid gameAug 23 22:07
schestowitz*playAug 23 22:07
DaemonFC"He is the world's fourth wealthiest person, according to Forbes."Aug 23 22:07
DaemonFCso he could never make any more money for the rest of his life and still die as a billionaireAug 23 22:08
DaemonFCcoolAug 23 22:08
schestowitzThe criminal organisation has just bought two more teams to join the posse; 23 22:08
DaemonFC_Goblin: If compassion is a part of human nature, why does the government have to fleece everyone and forcibly seize their income to run welfare programs?Aug 23 22:09
DaemonFCbecause humans aren't compassionate or charitable and lots of people die at age 100 with billions of dollars while millions die every day from starvationAug 23 22:09
schestowitzWe talk to the developers behind MenuetOS: an operating system written entirely in assembly language < >Aug 23 22:10
DaemonFCif the government didn't seize the income there would be no food for the "hungry"Aug 23 22:11
schestowitzMoney is created out of thin airAug 23 22:11
schestowitzDistributing it would mean littleAug 23 22:11
DaemonFCholy shit, that is the sneakiest advertisement everAug 23 22:11
DaemonFCthey wrapped an Office ad aroudn the page you linked toAug 23 22:11
schestowitzPeople tend to think that money can be converted into food or somethingAug 23 22:12
_Goblinbbl - but daemon....youve answered your own questions...the UK government makes its own decisions (for example) not mine....Aug 23 22:12
DaemonFCyou can feed ducks with quartersAug 23 22:12
DaemonFCif they eat enough of them, they'll sink, sometimes you can name them firstAug 23 22:12
DaemonFC:DAug 23 22:12
schestowitzWikipedia reaches 3 million articles, stalls and dies < >Aug 23 22:13
schestowitzyan rejoicesAug 23 22:13
DaemonFCone of my favorite South Park episodes, where they cured AIDS by liquifying millions of dollars and pumping it into people through an IVAug 23 22:14
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: and you know whats funny?Aug 23 22:14
Diablo-D3if that actually worked, and I was the richest man alive, I'd easily give up all my money for thatAug 23 22:14
tessier_Goblin: The threat of communism nowhere overpowered the US.Aug 23 22:15
schestowitzFacebook sacking highlights hidden dangers of stupidity < >Aug 23 22:15
tessierThe US is defeating communism in Vietnam even today.Aug 23 22:15
DaemonFCthe message was that they always ask for billions of dolalrs to fight AIDSAug 23 22:15
DaemonFCand how everyone in those African countries still has itAug 23 22:16
*magentar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Aug 23 22:18
schestowitzbalzac: 23 22:20
schestowitz /. says "GNU". Weird... 23 22:21
tessierschestowitz: More to do with the submitter or editor I imagine.Aug 23 22:22
schestowitztessier: yes, that's what I reckonedAug 23 22:22
schestowitz"This week, though, Todd Weiss, writing on, discussed how many analysts see the move as allowing VMware "to tie virtualization directly to applications without requiring a separate operating system." Could VMware have its eye on the fast-growing Software-as-a-Service (SaaS) arena, aiming to deliver virtualized apps that users and IT administrators can hop in and out of without a tie to a parent OS?"Aug 23 22:23
schestowitz 23 22:23
schestowitzWeiss mailed me on Friday. We'll get some exposure coming Monday.Aug 23 22:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] is still b0rked. All the pages return a DB error, no matter the CMS being used for the different parts.Aug 23 22:24
DaemonFC 23 22:24
DaemonFCWe give them handouts, they give us diseasesAug 23 22:24
Diablo-D3who owns 23 22:25
tessierschestowitz: Who is Weiss? What sort of exposure?Aug 23 22:25
schestowitzStarting a Bank < >Aug 23 22:26
schestowitzDiablo-D3: Linux Foundation (IBM & gang)Aug 23 22:27
schestowitztessier: an article quiting us on MoonlightAug 23 22:27
Diablo-D3schestowitz: could be sched'ed maintAug 23 22:27
schestowitz "say what you will about the (acknowledged) naivete of this, but seriously – do you know anyone who loves their bank? interesting that i thought of USAA when reading this and Matt mentions that's the closest example he could think of."Aug 23 22:28
Diablo-D3USAA is very lovedAug 23 22:29
schestowitzDiablo-D3: maybe. It's a SundayAug 23 22:29
Diablo-D3as is PenFedAug 23 22:29
DaemonFCOpera is getting blisteringly fast in DOM operationsAug 23 22:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz andy updegrove's blog is broken too. and rationalwiki. it's like a billion mysqls screaming then silent!Aug 23 22:33
*fewa has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host))Aug 23 22:33
schestowitzI've not read Matt in years, but he's making some good posts. 23 22:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GPL FUD round N+1 < >Aug 23 22:35
DaemonFCwhat amuses me is that Opera is a small Norwegian company with a handful of employees and still manages to support web standards better than Mozilla Gecko, which is open source  supposedly has hundreds of developersAug 23 22:35
schestowitzThey have a lead, head startAug 23 22:36
DaemonFCThere's been several months of work on the Gecko trunk since Firefox 3.5Aug 23 22:36
DaemonFCand all they have to show on ACID 3 is that they pass 94 tests instead of 93Aug 23 22:36
DaemonFCOpera has passed ACID 3 since last DecemberAug 23 22:36
schestowitzIf only Opera GPLed, I'd probably use itAug 23 22:37
*tessier is looking forward to ChromeAug 23 22:37
DaemonFCnow they've fine tuned the engine for better performance on all the tests they passAug 23 22:37
DaemonFCthere's only three tests that get a bad performance rating on OperaAug 23 22:37
DaemonFCthere's 16 that get that on Firefox and 6 tests that are unsupportedAug 23 22:37
schestowitzHow to: an introduction to GTK+ treeviews and autocompletion < >Aug 23 22:38
DaemonFCIE 8 fails 80 tests and the bad performance notes of the other 20 overflow the dialog bogAug 23 22:38
DaemonFC*boxAug 23 22:38
schestowitztessier: Google domination in browser scares me a littleAug 23 22:38
schestowitzIE8 support 'more' than standards...even ActiveXAug 23 22:38
schestowitzBack in 2007 there were speculations that Microsoft would buy OperaAug 23 22:39
DaemonFCI was kind of thinking that may be why Opera was complaining about themAug 23 22:39
DaemonFCtrying to provoke some kind of lucrative buyout offer from MicrosoftAug 23 22:39
DaemonFCalthough if IE ditched Trident for Presto, it would be game over for FirefoxAug 23 22:40
DaemonFCit'll never happen of courseAug 23 22:40
DaemonFCI'd buyout Opera if I was Microsoft, beats paying thousands of people to hack away on Trident after letting it stagnate for about 6 yearsAug 23 22:41
DaemonFCof course they've painted themselves into a corner with IE, IE must now have support for all the crap introduced into IE 6 or else it may break applications that embed itAug 23 22:41
schestowitzOpera won't sellAug 23 22:41
schestowitzLie won't let itAug 23 22:41
schestowitzThey are Linux users many of themAug 23 22:42
DaemonFCenough money and anything is for saleAug 23 22:42
DaemonFCif I was Microsoft I'd shift out the IE engine into what you'd get if you requested it to be embedded and Presto would be the rendering engine if you specifically asked for it or were using IE as a browserAug 23 22:43
DaemonFCthat would probably workAug 23 22:43
schestowitz 23 22:43
schestowitz"Windows CE, whoops, its been "RENAMED" to Windows Mobile or WinMO, or maybe Zunephone this week, who knows. But the point is by Nick's own words: ""Windows Mobile 7" due to roll out in the fourth quarter of 2010." Yes, this means that its vaporware."Aug 23 22:43
schestowitzMore hype from Microsoft PR [watch[Aug 23 22:44
DaemonFCthere's quite a few popular browsers that just embed TridentAug 23 22:44
DaemonFCMaxthon is quite popular in China, it does thatAug 23 22:44
DaemonFCyou just get whatever Trident engine that's installed on the systemAug 23 22:44
schestowitz 23 22:44
schestowitz"A nice title for an article Nick. In my opinion its not an long-term threat either. Bill and Steve's attempt to "take over the internet," so to speak, sort of reminds me of the Spielberg cartoon, Pinky and the Brain, where their mission was to "take over the world." As for Bill and Steve, I leave it to you to decide which was Pinky, and which is the Brain."Aug 23 22:44
schestowitzChips is almost trolling him thereAug 23 22:45
schestowitzBut I guess he doesn't like it when sites turn to Microsoft PR.. veiled advertising as 'articles'Aug 23 22:45
DaemonFCthe nice thing about ad blocking with Opera is that it doesn't require an extension, just a file with rules for what to blockAug 23 22:45
DaemonFCand a style sheet that takes care of the whitespaceAug 23 22:45
schestowitzSame with FirefoxAug 23 22:46
schestowitzSince pre-1.0Aug 23 22:46
schestowitzI used to do it that wayAug 23 22:46
schestowitzuserContent.css or something like that in the profile dirAug 23 22:47
DaemonFCFirefox needs the adblock plus extension and that's been detected by scriptsAug 23 22:47
DaemonFCwho forward you to nag pagesAug 23 22:47
schestowitzThunderbird has that extension tooAug 23 22:49
schestowitzI do 80% or so of my browsing in Thunderbird with ThunderbrowseAug 23 22:49
schestowitz 23 22:49
DaemonFCthat's kind of backwardsAug 23 22:53
schestowitzUbuntu's multisearch surprise < >. Issue resolved now, but the LWN article has just been made available to non-subsAug 23 22:53
schestowitzDaemonFC: not at allAug 23 22:54
schestowitzAllows you to browse pages as though they are mail messagesAug 23 22:54
schestowitzFrom RSSAug 23 22:54
DaemonFCold rendering engineAug 23 22:54
DaemonFCknown security bugsAug 23 22:54
schestowitzCan flag, move around, open in tabs, etc.Aug 23 22:54
schestowitzVery fastAug 23 22:54
schestowitzNo need for Browser+mail+RSSAug 23 22:54
schestowitzAll in oneAug 23 22:54
schestowitzNopeAug 23 22:55
schestowitzThunderbird 2.0.22 just releasedAug 23 22:55
schestowitzSecure, same new rendering engineAug 23 22:55
schestowitzJS disabled for fast browsingAug 23 22:55
schestowitzHyper-threadingAug 23 22:55
schestowitzThunderbird is my most used appAug 23 22:55
DaemonFCdoesn't it still use the older version of GeckoAug 23 22:56
schestowitzMy boss uses Outlook a lot, but only for lots of junk. He's old-skoolAug 23 22:56
DaemonFCthe one from Firefox 2?Aug 23 22:56
schestowitzMaybeAug 23 22:56
schestowitz 23 22:56
schestowitzI must admit.Aug 23 22:56
schestowitzLinux moved very fastAug 23 22:56
schestowitzMicrosoft -- NOTHING this summerAug 23 22:57
schestowitzZune HDAug 23 22:57
schestowitzThat's about itAug 23 22:57
schestowitzTHe company is at a standstillAug 23 22:57
DaemonFC  24.3% arch/arm/ (meaningless to me)Aug 23 22:57
schestowitzNo wonder in the past two Qs profits fell so sharplyAug 23 22:57
schestowitzDown by about 30%Aug 23 22:57
DaemonFCactually, only about 15-20% of the changes even might mean anything to meAug 23 22:57
schestowitzMeaningless to Microsoft tooAug 23 22:58
schestowitzThat's why Linux has leverage in so many architecturesAug 23 22:58
schestowitzThat's why embedded devices run LinuxAug 23 22:58
schestowitzThat's why so many people develop LinuxAug 23 22:58
schestowitzNo, it's not for _you_, MSDN BHOYAug 23 22:59
DaemonFCand after 3 years it still doesn't support the AverMedia M780Aug 23 22:59
DaemonFCyay!Aug 23 22:59
schestowitzTell AverAug 23 22:59
DaemonFCso you're just kind of SOL if the kernel developers don't have the same hardware as youAug 23 22:59
DaemonFCor if a big company like Nvidia doesn't provide a binary driverAug 23 22:59
DaemonFCAver does release *some* binary Linux drivers that give you some functionality but not for their white box partsAug 23 23:00
DaemonFCthose are "meant for Windows Media Center"Aug 23 23:00
DaemonFCso there's a good chance that Linux will never work with the TV tuner card you got in your Media Center PCAug 23 23:01
schestowitzSUSE guy gets rolin' 23 23:01
DaemonFCthat's a big reason I still have WindowsAug 23 23:02
schestowitzThis 'problem' is already reolved. Don't buy AverMedia until they sort/get their act togetherAug 23 23:03
DaemonFCit doesn't have to be designed just for me and I don't have to worry that some hobbyist has the same add-on cardsAug 23 23:03
DaemonFCand wrote a driver that exposes the features he happens to care aboutAug 23 23:03
DaemonFCa real driver from the company that made the product supports everything the hardware doesAug 23 23:04
DaemonFCLinux gets that ease of use with things like Nvidia because millions of people have them and want some kind of guaranteed acceptable  supportAug 23 23:05
DaemonFCin the corporate world, people get fired if they don't have a driver ready when the new Windows hits the ground in any kind of reputable vendorAug 23 23:06
DaemonFCthat driver may never come if you just wait for John Doe to write itAug 23 23:06
DaemonFCI don't care how many lines of code are in it that make it work on ARM or PowerPC or with CPU hotplugging, I care about *my* system, and disabling half of *my* system is unacceptableAug 23 23:07
_GoblinQuote "n the corporate world, people get fired if they don't have a driver ready when the new Windows hits the ground" - There must have been many fired at the release of Vista then.....infact mainstream press is reporting an issue with Monitor resolutions in 7 so there could be a few more people out of work.Aug 23 23:08
DaemonFCNvidia has a WHQL certified driver out for every feature on every one of their cardsAug 23 23:09
DaemonFCas of two days agoAug 23 23:09
DaemonFCincluding the entire PhysX APIAug 23 23:09
DaemonFCsometimes they don't support the new Linux kernel or the new X for monthsAug 23 23:09
DaemonFC*after* they are outAug 23 23:09
_GoblinOn the basis of what you have said, I bet there are one or two people praying very hard at the moment.Aug 23 23:09
_GoblinDaemonFC: Please dont try to fudge.  Look at Vista as an example......people waited quite a while for compat issues to be sorted out.Aug 23 23:10
DaemonFCso yeah, if you use Fedora or something and that distro doesn't give a shit about what Nvidia is up to, you may have to hold off upgrading for a couple monthsAug 23 23:10
DaemonFCthat happened when Fedora 9 was out btwAug 23 23:10
_Goblinand thats forgetting the fact that they were led to believe Vista required alot lower specs than it really did.Aug 23 23:11
DaemonFCUbuntu doesn't have that problem because they decide what to ship based on what the binary drivers supportAug 23 23:11
_Goblinand we are now supposed to beleive MS's claims about 7?Aug 23 23:11
DaemonFCso they eventually give Nvidia veto power over what Ubuntu has in it in any releaseAug 23 23:11
DaemonFCUbuntu has shipped with old versions of and the kernel to satisfy binary drivers beforeAug 23 23:12
_GoblinDaemonFC: At least with Linux you have a choice of distros....with Windows if you have a compat issue you are stuffed....."One size fits all".Aug 23 23:12
schestowitzJono Bacon: The Art of Community < >Aug 23 23:12
DaemonFCactually, Windows 7 supported everything in my computerAug 23 23:13
_Goblingood for you.....Aug 23 23:13
DaemonFCthere were some updates on Windows Update, but everything works right off the discAug 23 23:13
_Goblinso does every distro of Linux Ive tried.Aug 23 23:13
_Goblinexcept far faster.Aug 23 23:13
_Goblinthan when I was running Windows.Aug 23 23:13
DaemonFCLinux is an oddballAug 23 23:13
_Goblinof course.Aug 23 23:13
schestowitzVista 7 doesn't work for many peoleAug 23 23:14
DaemonFCin some ways it's very mature and advanced, but in just as many ways it's infantile and buggy and going through biurthing painsAug 23 23:14
DaemonFCit's not consistentAug 23 23:14
schestowitzPeople who try it are fanboys and MSDN subscribersAug 23 23:14
_GoblinDaemonFC: You are of course right.....all Linux users must obviously be liars and spend their time talking about experiences that they dont have.....Aug 23 23:14
schestowitzThey are naturally biasedAug 23 23:14
schestowitzThey also have PCs that they bought with Vista preinstalledAug 23 23:15
schestowitzSo of course Vista2 (7) will work OKAug 23 23:15
DaemonFCwell, if you're telling people to format a working copy of XP or Vista off and install LinuxAug 23 23:15
_GoblinDaemonFC: As we say around here "have a day off" think about your weak argument.....I never said that....Aug 23 23:15
DaemonFCyou should be able to assure them that Linux works on that system just as wellAug 23 23:15
_GoblinUnlike proprietary pushers like you I dont seek to tell people to do anything....I give my experiences and let them make an informed choice that is best for them.Aug 23 23:16
DaemonFCand there's no guarantee the boot CD will even make it past GRUBAug 23 23:16
schestowitzWhy is the DOT in NYC? 23 23:16
_Goblinbit like the Vista experiience.Aug 23 23:16
schestowitzOr is that WA DC?Aug 23 23:16
DaemonFCno Linux fansite ever has a "What about GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB?" "Why the hell did it drop me in BusyBox?" "Where is my hardware?"Aug 23 23:17
DaemonFCjust as surely as every Windows fansite will tell you that all of Windows problems are to be ignored and not talked aboutAug 23 23:18
*ThistleWeb ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 23 23:18
_GoblinDaemonFC - The proprietary pusher who tries to sell in a Linux majority chat room.....Aug 23 23:18
_GoblinDaemonFC: Youve proved something.  Theres no way you are on the payroll of Microsoft.  Since they are cutting so much fat you would have been the first to go.Aug 23 23:18
DaemonFCIt's like the Paul Thurrott sites are all Fox News and the Linux sites tend to be The Rachel Maddow ShowAug 23 23:19
_Goblinand Microsoft sites?Aug 23 23:19
DaemonFCthere's no in between, nobody telling the truth because they're too egotisticalAug 23 23:19
_GoblinlolAug 23 23:19
_GoblinThose "feature rich" Microsoft buzzwordsAug 23 23:19
_Goblinas transparent as one of Ballmers shirts after a stage performance.Aug 23 23:19
DaemonFCthe only guarantee you have with Linux is that when you hit a snag you didn't pay $300 for itAug 23 23:20
DaemonFCI'll give it that muchAug 23 23:20
_Goblinlol.Aug 23 23:20
_Goblinand with MS even paying £300 might not solve it.Aug 23 23:20
DaemonFCbut there are snagsAug 23 23:20
DaemonFCand saying there aren't any just proves who the fanboy isAug 23 23:21
_GoblinI didnt say there wasnt.......why are you telling lies..?Aug 23 23:21
_Goblinor are you shifting between realities?Aug 23 23:21
_GoblinI don't recall in this universe ever saying that Linux was flawless.Aug 23 23:22
ThistleWebI see DaemonFC is bored againAug 23 23:22
DaemonFCoh, it's just that the attitude that you've "come to expect more" from a piece of middleware is amusing and should be mockedAug 23 23:22
ThistleWebwhipping up another fightAug 23 23:22
_GoblinDaemonFC: Mock away....if it makes you feel better.Aug 23 23:22
*ThistleWeb will have to check which Daemon nick he ignored, and add the rest to the listAug 23 23:22
_GoblinThistleweb: You've missed some crackers from him tonight...Aug 23 23:22
ThistleWebI don't doubt itAug 23 23:23
DaemonFCthat's like saying "I used to eat Kroger generic poptarts but the Walmart generic brand poptarts have made me expect more from my poptarts"Aug 23 23:23
ThistleWebI did notice a few times over the last few days peeps responding to a name I had ignored, so I was only seeing part of the convoAug 23 23:23
_GoblinThistleweb: Seriously you have to check out his views on people from developing countries....the (his words) "Uneducated"Aug 23 23:23
DaemonFCdon't forget backwardsAug 23 23:24
DaemonFCand hopelessAug 23 23:24
ThistleWebI was tempted to unignore again, but since I keep forgetting how to ignore on IRC I thought it better to resist itAug 23 23:24
_GoblinThistleweb: I would strongly recommend you don't ignore....He's providing great entertainment whilst I wait for Summerslam.Aug 23 23:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard yes, I noticed the commonalityAug 23 23:25
ThistleWebhe has the political / social intelligence of a bigoted toadstool, I expect no lessAug 23 23:25
*Xarver ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 23 23:25
_GoblinThistleweb: He has provided some great quotes next time I need a comment from a Microsoft advocate on my blog.Aug 23 23:25
DaemonFCLiberal: Just give all your earned money to bums so they can go buy heroin and malt liquorAug 23 23:25
DaemonFCLiberal: Just give them all they want, or you're a total bastardAug 23 23:26
DaemonFC:DAug 23 23:26
DaemonFCLiberal: Doesn't matter if you need it, we'll take it from you anywayAug 23 23:26
ThistleWebI do notice those who like to cause probs have several names on IRCAug 23 23:26
ThistleWebso they can temporarily get past bansAug 23 23:26
ThistleWebcan you ignore all names registered to the same user in one swoop?Aug 23 23:27
ThistleWebor is it a one-at-a-time thing?Aug 23 23:27
DaemonFC_Goblin: Beggars get mad if you don't just give them the money, my charity expired when I bought someone some food and they threw it on the ground and cussed me out because I wouldn't hand them a $20 so they could "get food"Aug 23 23:28
DaemonFCthat's what people are really likeAug 23 23:28
ThistleWebhang on, DaemonFC is the only person on my ignore list and I can see him, what am I doing wrong?Aug 23 23:28
ThistleWebahh, operaAug 23 23:29
ThistleWebhe has a touch of the Mutex's about him methinksAug 23 23:29
_GoblinDaemonFC: I was burgled by our nieghbour....should I hate all nieghbours?Aug 23 23:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Kid Cudi Ft. David Guetta - Memories (FULL VERSION AUGUST 2009)" ♫ 23 23:31
_GoblinDaemonFC: had one alleged bad experience which gives you the justification to damn millions of people....great argument.Aug 23 23:31
_GoblinDaemonFC: Ive said before, you would be a nightmare to represent in court.Aug 23 23:31
DaemonFCweflare creates dependence on welfare and is always rife with fraudAug 23 23:31
ThistleWebhe's an attention seekerAug 23 23:31
schestowitzThistleWeb: Mutex gave upAug 23 23:32
schestowitzHe left a comment in BN last weekAug 23 23:32
ThistleWebhe will continue to make outragious comments to get attentionAug 23 23:32
ThistleWebahh, good.....for nowAug 23 23:32
_GoblinDaemonFC: and I'll say again...if you find yourself the wrong side of a civil action, settle out of will be cheaper.Aug 23 23:32
DaemonFC_Goblin: Why would I be in court? I've never even had a speeding ticketAug 23 23:32
ThistleWebmaybe he's just conserving his energy for another pushAug 23 23:32
schestowitzDaemonFC trolls in real life tooAug 23 23:33
schestowitzThat's why he's on probation :-)Aug 23 23:33
_GoblinDaemonFC: It was a sarcastic remark directed at the strength of your arguments.Aug 23 23:33
schestowitzHis parole offers does not forbid IRC, apparentlyAug 23 23:33
DaemonFCschestowitz: That was dismissedAug 23 23:33
_GoblinDaemonFC: I didnt think you would need it to be explained.Aug 23 23:33
schestowitz*officerAug 23 23:33
DaemonFCI have the letterAug 23 23:33
ThistleWebI'm still new to IRC, I don't know many commands, whats the best way to ignore Daemon*Aug 23 23:33
_GoblinDaemonFC: and maybe reinforces the validity of my advice to you.Aug 23 23:33
ThistleWebthis time it's opera that got him past my ignoreAug 23 23:33
schestowitzThistleWeb: which client?Aug 23 23:33
schestowitzThere might be a GUI routeAug 23 23:34
ThistleWebxchatAug 23 23:34
DaemonFC_Goblin: I never had to go to court, the Prosecutor is an idiotAug 23 23:34
schestowitzWIndows -> Ignore listAug 23 23:34
ThistleWebI had to rely on you kicking him before to get the right string to addAug 23 23:34
_GoblinDaemonFC: oh really don't understand do you?Aug 23 23:34
schestowitzi can't /ignore cause there's moderation neededAug 23 23:34
_GoblinDaemonFC: you are best off just forgetting about it then.....doesnt matter....Im sure the rest of us got the point.Aug 23 23:35
ThistleWebI looked in there, but this time his string comes up as operaAug 23 23:35
DaemonFCthe probation was only on paper anywayAug 23 23:35
DaemonFCI went out of state and into bars while it was "in effect"Aug 23 23:35
ThistleWebI dont wanna ignore a dnyamic comcast ip poolAug 23 23:35
DaemonFCthey basically, it didn't even amount to a wrist slapAug 23 23:36
DaemonFCis what I'm sayingAug 23 23:36
ThistleWebnor all opera usersAug 23 23:36
DaemonFCthey had no evidence, they didn't want to jsut let me go, so they gave me something "on paper" and then the charge was withdrawn, it's not even on my background checksAug 23 23:36
_Goblinin the UK thats known as an NFA.Aug 23 23:37
DaemonFCit's more like they didn't want to admit in front of voters that they had fucked up and wasted tax money chasing after meAug 23 23:37
schestowitzToo badAug 23 23:37
DaemonFCso they let me go without officially calling it thatAug 23 23:37
_GoblinI doubt it.....charges are dropped all the time.Aug 23 23:37
schestowitzThey could have made a kilingAug 23 23:37
schestowitz*llAug 23 23:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz i think it's coincidence, bad luck and mysql being of not the greatest quality ;-) rationalwiki's is hardware problemsAug 23 23:38
_Goblinin the UK the CPS can proceed with charge only for it to be dropped at court by the rep.Aug 23 23:38
DaemonFCthey throw everyone against the wall and see what (who) sticks around hereAug 23 23:38
DaemonFCif it's not going to net them a huge amount of fines or penalties they just give up pursuing itAug 23 23:39
_GoblinIn the "old days" charges could be made by the custody sgt and cases were prosecuted by the officer in the case.Aug 23 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard mysql has been good to me for over 5 years. I think we tend to see the errors because the whole bl00dy Web is mysql-poweredAug 23 23:40
DaemonFCunless you maimed, murdered, or were in possession of drugs, it usually just gets ignoredAug 23 23:40
DaemonFCthey're big on traffic tickets thoughAug 23 23:40
_Goblinor what about pirated Microsoft products ;)Aug 23 23:41
cubezzzthat's sort of encouragedAug 23 23:41
DaemonFCnobody caresAug 23 23:41
cubezzzGates has said he'd rather people pirate windows than use LinuxAug 23 23:42
DaemonFCcertainly not local policeAug 23 23:42
_GoblinDaemonFC: Note: I am being sarcastic again...Aug 23 23:42
_Goblincubezzz: I heard that too....Aug 23 23:42
_Goblincubezzz: Im sure the shareholders will love that.Aug 23 23:42
cubezzzit's all about controlAug 23 23:43
DaemonFCI'm sure they'd haul you away if you were stupid enough to write "Kiddie Porn" on a blank CD and leave it outAug 23 23:43
cubezzzthere's a Star Wars quote that comes to mind here :)Aug 23 23:43
DaemonFCbut nobody cares about "Windows Vista" written in sharpie markerAug 23 23:43
DaemonFCnot unless you're selling themAug 23 23:43
_GoblindaemonFC: Because one is illegal and the other isnt.....copyright law only comes into play criminally in the UK when you share.Aug 23 23:44
_GoblindaemonFC: Hence why there is no offence of d/l from NG or IRC.Aug 23 23:44
DaemonFCthey were using the "making available" argument here too til they established that just having one copy is enoughAug 23 23:45
_GoblindaemonFC: FACT (the commercially funded advisors to the police) are only interested in Limewire/BT sharing of their members work.Aug 23 23:45
_GoblindaemonFC: Although the question needs to be asked, if one is prosecuting for copyright theft of a non fact member then surely a victim statement needs to be taken from the company involved, somthing I'd suggest few police forces would be able to do.Aug 23 23:46
_GoblindaemonFC: having said that piracy is a non issue to me since I use should try it.Aug 23 23:47
cubezzz_Goblin, how about this one: someone in the US records Cable TV and shares the file with everyone via bittorrent, legal or illegal?Aug 23 23:48
_Goblinin respect of the UK law?Aug 23 23:48
_Goblinillegal.Aug 23 23:48
cubezzzsureAug 23 23:48
_Goblinthe licence to broadcast has been paid for by the tv company.Aug 23 23:48
DaemonFCthe RIAA keeps trying to up the ante by saying that police should investigate file sharers on the grounds that it's probably a crack denAug 23 23:49
DaemonFCcomplete with prostitutesAug 23 23:49
DaemonFC:PAug 23 23:49
_Goblinthere is no licence for the recipient to do as they please with it.Aug 23 23:49
DaemonFCI shit you notAug 23 23:49
cubezzz_Goblin, yeah that makes senseAug 23 23:49
cubezzzthat would make stuff like sopcast illegal too would it not?Aug 23 23:49
_GoblinDaemonFC: Thats not new, over in the UK piracy has been linked to drugs/guns/terrorism.....all the "hot potatoes" of crime....the adverts are by FACT an organisation funded by the entertainment industry that advises the polcie.Aug 23 23:50
DaemonFCit's the RIAA, they want to stigmatize sharing because that's how their stuff gets copiedAug 23 23:50
_Goblincubezzz: I dont know what sopcast is.Aug 23 23:50
cubezzzI don't see how anyone can stop sharingAug 23 23:51
DaemonFCwhen you pirate Windows Vista, you download with OsamaAug 23 23:51
DaemonFC:)Aug 23 23:51
_Goblincubezzz: I dont think you can....the warez scene is always was rife on the Amiga and that was before BT/Limewire et al...Aug 23 23:51
DaemonFCBBSAug 23 23:52
DaemonFCyepAug 23 23:52
_Goblincubezzz: In those days people swapped disks through the post in jiffy bags.Aug 23 23:52
_Goblinor used a BBSAug 23 23:52
DaemonFCdial in and download for the price of a long distance call pretty muchAug 23 23:52
cubezzzsopcast is basically p2p sharing of satellite tvAug 23 23:52
DaemonFCstill cheaper than buying the softwareAug 23 23:52
_Goblinor bought at car boot sales...Aug 23 23:52
cubezzzactually I bought my fair share of amiga softwareAug 23 23:53
_Goblinyou see the difficulty law has with copyright theft is the following...if they change legislation to make the act of simply downloading (not sharing) illegal, then you instantly make an offence of someone recording something off TV...Aug 23 23:53
cubezzzwell, that was resolved with VCRs was it not?Aug 23 23:54
cubezzzrecording is A-OKAug 23 23:54
_Goblinthats why even if BT was clamped down can d/l from NG or IRC without fear.Aug 23 23:54
DaemonFCyeah, but now they jsut encrypt the recording and DRM it locallyAug 23 23:54
DaemonFCliek Microsoft Media CenterAug 23 23:54
DaemonFCI just use different media center softwareAug 23 23:55
cubezzzI've removed all DRM I've encountered so far, except with Windows Media Player 11Aug 23 23:55
cubezzzexcept forAug 23 23:55
DaemonFCactually WMA itself doesn't support DRMAug 23 23:55
cubezzzthere's encrypted WMAAug 23 23:55
DaemonFCthe DRM'd WMA files are actually in an ASF wrapper, which does support the DRMAug 23 23:55
DaemonFCthe DRM is in the wrapperAug 23 23:55
cubezzzTV -> the radio waves are out there, people can recordAug 23 23:56
DaemonFCI have no idea why anyone would buy a WMA file, much less a DRM'd oneAug 23 23:56
cubezzzsame with FTA satelliteAug 23 23:56
DaemonFCI've tried WMA with a number of different types of music out of sheer curiosityAug 23 23:56
DaemonFCnever actually made a library out of themAug 23 23:57
cubezzzI've bought WMA, I've bought WMV, and then later removed the DRMAug 23 23:57
_Goblinmark my words, the end of filesharing will come about not by DRM, not by chasing individual sharers, it will be because (IMO) of legislation that holds the ISP's responsible....fear of loss of profit will ensure the ISP's keep its users in line.Aug 23 23:57
DaemonFCthat's why teh ISPs got the "safe harbor" provision in the DMCAAug 23 23:57
_Goblinthat would certainly stop NG binaries....Aug 23 23:57
DaemonFCall they have to do is warn you  on behalf of the RIAAAug 23 23:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Opens Doors to Student 23 23:58
_GoblinIRC al.Aug 23 23:58
DaemonFCthey aren't liableAug 23 23:58
cubezzzwell, people can encrypt the stream of courseAug 23 23:58
DaemonFCI have a fair few MP3s just from people's DCC servers in IRC roomsAug 23 23:58
_Goblinno daemonfc: I am saying a change in legislation that will make them.Aug 23 23:58
DaemonFC_Goblin: Won't happenAug 23 23:58
_Goblinand your reasoning?Aug 23 23:58
DaemonFCthe ISPs have just as many lobbyists as the RIAAAug 23 23:58
DaemonFCthe politicians don't want to piss either of them offAug 23 23:59
DaemonFCDMCA with Safe Harbor was a compromise between the recording industry and the ISPsAug 23 23:59
_Goblinyes but this decision would have little relevance....we are talking large companies, taxes and the government.....legislation can be passed.Aug 23 23:59
cubezzzBell is definitely throttling p2p traffic thoughAug 23 23:59
DaemonFCCanada is actually cracking down far more than the United StatesAug 23 23:59
_Goblinthe people "in the know" are few and far between, this legislation, I believe could get through....Aug 23 23:59

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