IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: August 31st, 2009

schestowitzhex editing?Aug 31 00:00
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twitter1a google search for the phrase "nuke it from orbit" turned up this 2006 advice from M$ 31 00:00
schestowitzamarsh04: in the "too scared to reply" binAug 31 00:00
twitter1lame.Aug 31 00:00
amarsh04_BusyBox on iConnect625 login: rootAug 31 00:00
amarsh04_Password:Aug 31 00:01
amarsh04_BusyBox v0.61.pre (2007.10.19-02:33+0000) Built-in shell (ash)Aug 31 00:01
twitter1it was obvious back in 2002 that wipe and reload was the only thing that would fix a malwared out M$ box.Aug 31 00:01
schestowitzYouTube says I've watched 16,530 clips since registering.Aug 31 00:01
schestowitzWOwAug 31 00:01
XarverYouLubeAug 31 00:01
twitter1more efficient than TVAug 31 00:01
amarsh04_that, plus archived mailing list postings from one of their employees on busybox mailing lists convinced me that they included busyboxAug 31 00:02
schestowitzLinTubeAug 31 00:02
Xarver:PAug 31 00:02
XarverThey should have a video site that uses open videoAug 31 00:02
Xarver:PAug 31 00:02
Xarverthey already do, but in betas...Aug 31 00:02
twitter1GNU/Linux LiveCD is the best and easiest way to nuke a Wintel box.Aug 31 00:02
schestowitzamarsh04: sounds reasonable. PRobably will hit the headlines next weekAug 31 00:02
twitter1prevents recurrenceAug 31 00:02
twitter1truth hurts ->  I wonder how long it will take before the “Screw Microsoft” meetings commence?  Probably never.  It probably won’t happen because Microsoft is doing a good enough job themselves, and I like to think Google is smart enough to know money is much better spent elsewhereAug 31 00:03
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twitter1jaw drops ->   Microsoft does have some diamonds in their rough though — one example is their development tools, frameworks and platforms. This includes WPF, Silverlight and Microsoft SurfaceAug 31 00:04
twitter1can't stop laughing.Aug 31 00:04
XarverLolAug 31 00:05
XarverSilverlight is shit.Aug 31 00:05
Xarver:PAug 31 00:05
schestowitz 31 00:05
*amarsh04_ is now known as amarsh04Aug 31 00:05
schestowitzXarver: it gained no momentumAug 31 00:05
schestowitzIt's KiaAug 31 00:05
XarverexactlyAug 31 00:06
XarverIt's flash on crack.Aug 31 00:06
schestowitzMicrosoft RIA DOAAug 31 00:06
XarverBrb, going to log out so my volume control shows up.Aug 31 00:07
Xarver:PAug 31 00:07
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amarsh04back in a moment, konversation is going crazy trying to reconnect to another networkAug 31 00:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] RT @daily_finance Microsoft's secret 'screw Google' meetings in D.C. -- DailyFinance 31 00:19
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twitter1Windows malware spys on skype,skype-trojan-can-log-voip-conversations.aspxAug 31 01:16
twitter1PJ thinks Psystar is an attack on the GPL. 31 01:31
twitter1and sees a new Florida lawsuit as more evidence of that 31 01:31
twitter1that seems rather twistedAug 31 01:32
twitter1She quotes some old troll who says that a company can violate the GPL by using "first sale,"  which is nonsense.Aug 31 01:41
twitter1First sale is about ownership of goods.  GPL is about publishing.  I can buy a pile of books and sell them for whatever price I want, so long as I'm not a predatory monopoly dumping the books.  That does not give me the right to publish new copies of the book.Aug 31 01:43
twitter1A company that's commercially redistributing GPL'd code is on the GPL hook.Aug 31 01:45
twitter1That does not justify Apple's obnoxious restrictions.  The GPL is permissive and allows publication so long as software freedom is not violated.  Apple's EULAs take freedom away and do not allow sharing at all.Aug 31 01:47
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schestowitzJust finished the second episode of CosmosAug 31 01:58
schestowitzgnAug 31 01:58
*cubezzz looks aroundAug 31 02:52
cubezzzhey, DaemonFC isn't here :)Aug 31 02:52
cubezzzMicrosoft just seems full of hatredAug 31 02:55
cubezzzprobably due to Ballmer's bad attitudeAug 31 02:55
cubezzznot probably, definitelyAug 31 02:55
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yuhong 31 04:06
yuhong(the title says it all)Aug 31 04:06
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yuhong 31 04:21
yuhong(the title says it all)Aug 31 04:21
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twitter1nice Wired article, Roy. 31 05:42
twitter1LOL ->  Open access journals have no such imperative, since they are giving it away, so readers have no expectations that the stuff is unique and never seen before.Aug 31 05:45
twitter1I get new stuff on the interwebs all day long.  What I expect from formal journals is stale, inconvenient and expensive.Aug 31 05:46
twitter1Perhaps even corrupt.Aug 31 05:47
twitter1Journals of the future will be peer reviewed but the paywall must vanish.Aug 31 05:47
twitter1Most journals function as parasites that prevent the dissemination of generations of knowledge.Aug 31 05:48
twitter1uh oh 31 06:35
twitter1if only reporting on Windows 7 were this frank 31 06:40
twitter1Another Windows 7 hype by bashing OSX article 31 06:42
twitter1actually, that one is mostly positive about OSX but it still hypes Windows 7 as if "modern Windows" were worth using.Aug 31 06:43
twitter1SJVN tries to upgrade Windows, OSX and Ubuntu.  Ubuntu wins for ease of use, of course. 31 06:51
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twitter1N's upgrade problems mirror those seen by Mossberg and Dvorak 31 07:20
twitter1Windows 7 Failure Log is updated 31 07:20
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twitter1Did clippy write this article?  I usually don't pick on grammar and spelling but this one wins a prize 31 07:23
twitter1->  Though, analysts believe that Windows 7 should appeal to businesses, yet sluggish economy could the importance of the new operating system.Aug 31 07:24
twitter1WTF does that mean?Aug 31 07:24
twitter1->  August sales slow as PC buyers were waiting for Windows 7 OS and will eventually rise after the launch of windows 7.Aug 31 07:25
twitter1No, sales are slow because M$ killed GNU/Linux netbooks, the only category that was selling.  Windows 7, buggy and expensive, won't fix that problem even in a "recovery"Aug 31 07:26
twitter1People want light and portable.Aug 31 07:26
twitter1Business will treat Windows 7 the same way they treated Vista because they are one and the same dog.Aug 31 07:27
twitter1It looks like Vista 7 won't even get the fanboy sales spurt and channel stuffing that Vista did. 31 07:29
twitter1Hmmmph, that makes two articles based on Directions on Microsoft fluff.Aug 31 07:30
twitter1->  Cherry was bullish on Windows 7, saying it solves numerous issues that kept users away from Vista.Aug 31 07:31
twitter1oh yeah.Aug 31 07:31
twitter1If there was not enough "pent up demand" after six years of XP, there won't be now.Aug 31 07:32
twitter1LMAO ->   wildly popular PowerShell scriptingAug 31 07:32
twitter1wildAug 31 07:33
twitter1the wildly popular posix or wildly popular bash.Aug 31 07:33
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twitter1it will be fun to watch M$ dig up all of their old NT hype to promote their second rate command line.Aug 31 07:35
twitter1Windows 7 deadly sins campaign continues to get good press coverage.Aug 31 07:36
twitter1The M$ shit list must be growing faster than Sweaty B can throw chairs and curse.Aug 31 07:36
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[tracyrreed] Bachelor parties are fun.Aug 31 07:58
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twitter1the kind of netbook that might run Windows 7 31 08:16
twitter1only 15 lbs.Aug 31 08:16
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twitter1CMD has a howto for astroturf and front group detection 31 08:30
schestowitzOK, now I do a a marathon of posts (about 10)Aug 31 08:34
twitter1coolAug 31 08:43
twitter1happy canned goods day 31 08:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] What People Say About Microsoft’s War on Open Standards 31 09:12
schestowitzThanks for all the linksAug 31 09:13
schestowitzI scooped up what's in them that's helpfulAug 31 09:13
amarsh04schestowitz, have you ever covered the taser company's spin-doctoring of the negative aspects of their products?Aug 31 09:14
amarsh04was reading and wondered what our state was heading for with their useAug 31 09:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Analysis Links: What Happens to SCO NextAug 31 09:22
schestowitzamarsh04: They sued Half Life, IIRCAug 31 09:23
schestowitzTo police their image, using trademarksAug 31 09:23
schestowitzBut I don't know their "PR" efforts (AstroTurf)Aug 31 09:23
schestowitzThe UK moves towards adopting these tooAug 31 09:24
schestowitzTaser is a lot like waterbroarding in the sense that there's campaigns to hide the harmsAug 31 09:25
amarsh04exactly, schestowitzAug 31 09:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft Insider/Partner Warns All That Microsoft “Destroys” Partners 31 10:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Starter Edition Called “Too Wimpy” by IDG, Compatibility Problems Foreseen 31 10:39
oiaohmI worked out something to day key management server is MS next lock.Aug 31 10:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft screwing themselves while they try to screw Google: 31 11:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Neocleus to be Led by Man Who Gave Previous Employer to Microsoft 31 11:15
Omar87_ROFL! Garret Rogers: "Microsoft does have some diamonds in their rough though — one example is their development tools, frameworks and platforms. This includes WPF, Silverlight and Microsoft Surface "Aug 31 11:39
Omar87_Microsoft Surface is a diamond.. :)Aug 31 11:39
oiaohmMicrosoft Surface is a clone of a good idea.Aug 31 11:40
Omar87_Hilarious.. :PAug 31 11:40
oiaohmMicrosoft surface had the idea of becoming a money system.Aug 31 11:40
schestowitzHahahahaAug 31 11:41
schestowitzDiamondsAug 31 11:41
Omar87_:DAug 31 11:41
schestowitzZune!!!!!!!!Aug 31 11:41
schestowitz"Surface is OK... now, now... if we only could find customers to buy the darn thing"Aug 31 11:42
oiaohmSurface problem is price tag.Aug 31 11:42
oiaohmMS wants 15 000 USD for it.Aug 31 11:43
oiaohm5 000 USD they would have sold like hot cakes.Aug 31 11:43
Omar87_Silverlight is a diamond. :DAug 31 11:44
oiaohmReally.Aug 31 11:45
oiaohmHow do you make that.Aug 31 11:45
Omar87_How do I make what?Aug 31 11:45
oiaohmSilverlight is a clone of flash and web standards are threating to nuke flash.Aug 31 11:46
oiaohmWPF maybe it is one of the simpler GUI create systems to code in.  Just not cross platform.Aug 31 11:46
oiaohmThat Silverlight as a diamond.Aug 31 11:47
schestowitzHe jokedAug 31 11:49
schestowitzGarret Rogers -- who's he? MS employee?Aug 31 11:49
schestowitz"Evangelist"?Aug 31 11:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Is Microsoft Trying to Derail Another Massive Migration to GNU/Linux in Brazil? 31 11:49
oiaohmProblem I have with surface by the time MS wakes up they have to drop the price.  Linux will be out with multi touch.Aug 31 11:51
oiaohmAnd multi terminal from a single machine.Aug 31 11:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @cleomorgause: 30+ PHP Best Practices for Beginners #phpAug 31 12:00
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schestowitztacone: go to WordPress panelAug 31 12:02
schestowitzDo you get that Akismet error?Aug 31 12:02
schestowitzIt seems to have been down for hoursAug 31 12:02
taconelemme seeAug 31 12:03
schestowitzoiaohm: did you see the multitouch video?Aug 31 12:03
taconeschestowitz: it has a maximum of comments per month i thinkAug 31 12:03
taconeotherwise you have to payAug 31 12:03
schestowitzOh, I seeAug 31 12:04
schestowitzMaybe that's whyAug 31 12:04
schestowitzThanksAug 31 12:04
schestowitz"A DNS problem or firewall is preventing all access from your web server to Akismet cannot work correctly until this is fixed. Please contact your web host or firewall administrator and give them this information about Akismet and firewalls."Aug 31 12:04
schestowitz"Last checked 7 hours ago."Aug 31 12:04
taconei don't see any error.Aug 31 12:04
schestowitzAh. It's back up.Aug 31 12:04
taconeoh okAug 31 12:04
schestowitzIt checks this once in x hoursAug 31 12:05
schestowitzFirst time I see it going downAug 31 12:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Boycott Novell covers a particular type of stories 31 12:06
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oiaohmschestowitz: I did but that is still not in all the main line toolkitsAug 31 12:24
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More Losses and Antitrust Barriers for Microsoft Online 31 13:05
oiaohmMore I am reading about 2.6.32 kernel is going to be great.  KSM in there.  vga aborbitor and a lot of other important clean ups.Aug 31 13:12
oiaohmSo chrismas is really going to be nice.Aug 31 13:12
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Acabei de almoçar mesmo agora... não sou muito apreciador de sopas... especialmente quando se tem de mastigar muito...Aug 31 13:17
*trmanco is cleaning up some obsolete packages Aug 31 13:22
*trmanco is doneAug 31 13:23
oiaohm 31 13:26
oiaohmAnyone else suspect spell checker problems.Aug 31 13:27
schestowitzNoAug 31 13:27
schestowitzit's intentional humourAug 31 13:27
schestowitzoiaohm: seen the video yet?Aug 31 13:28
schestowitz<schestowitz> oiaohm: did you see the multitouch video?Aug 31 13:28
oiaohmYes schestowitz.  I have also see the glut intergration video with multitouch.Aug 31 13:31
oiaohmNow we still have qt and gtk to do the intergration and X11 to have the patches be out main line.Aug 31 13:31
oiaohmBasically 2010 is looking like the year Linux goes desktop and beyond.Aug 31 13:36
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MinceRevery year is the year of linux on the desktopAug 31 13:37
Diablo-D3oiaohm: manAug 31 13:39
Diablo-D3you'd love con's new sched patchAug 31 13:39
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Diablo-D3it makes linux desktops perfectAug 31 13:39
MinceRcon is back?Aug 31 13:40
Diablo-D3MinceR: yupAug 31 13:40
Diablo-D3hes working on a new sched to replace mingo'sAug 31 13:40
Diablo-D3since mingo cant code worth of shitAug 31 13:40
MinceR:)Aug 31 13:40
Diablo-D3you should add #ck on oftc to your autojoinAug 31 13:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Apple Connected to AstroTurfing Agency Reverb Communications 31 13:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Vou ver um filmeAug 31 13:54
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oiaohmDiablo-D3 sorry to say con had the issue wrong.Aug 31 14:14
oiaohm90 percent of the problem has nothing to do with the scheduler and desktop.Aug 31 14:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] RT @coalhot: is pissed at the Free Library of Philadelphia and the way they block you from using firefox on your flash drive...BUH!Aug 31 14:15
oiaohmPeople like to forget Windows NT was at first designed to be a real-time OS.  So does not have excess ammounts of locking in the OS design.Aug 31 14:15
oiaohmLinux kernel developers for a time went insane with lock usage.Aug 31 14:16
oiaohmReal-time tree complete merge should complete sometime in 2010 as well.Aug 31 14:17
oiaohmSeeing most of the desktop sched issues disappear.Aug 31 14:18
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Aondoso no separate realtime patch for the kernel?Aug 31 14:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Deep Influence in Malta and the United States 31 14:43
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Tidying the house on a bank holiday. Dust a plenty! Also lots of clothes for the charity shop. Including a few !debian t-shirts ;)Aug 31 15:07
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Diablo-D3backAug 31 15:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Seca de filme...Aug 31 15:10
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peon-dev 31 15:53
peon-devsome vista fodderAug 31 15:53
peon-devcheersAug 31 15:54
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schestowitzI guess it's then same for Vista 7 thenAug 31 15:56
Diablo-D3you want to read the most epic blog post ever?Aug 31 15:57
Diablo-D3 31 15:57
Diablo-D3BAMAug 31 15:57
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Patents Roundup: Bilski Revisited, FFII Seems Confused, EU Seemingly Hijacked by Large Corporations < >Aug 31 16:13
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wallclimberThis one made me laugh, very funny has to do with AT&T and iPhones and IE:Aug 31 16:31
wallclimber 31 16:31
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] ♺ @phoronix: ALSA 1.0.21 Released With Many Driver Updates 31 16:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Recording @uupc at my place tonight, which will make a pleasant change (for me) :)Aug 31 17:11
Diablo-D3,2817,2352212,00.aspAug 31 17:18
Diablo-D36 cores in 40 wattsAug 31 17:18
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schestowitzWe need AMD, so that's goodAug 31 17:31
schestowitz 31 17:32
schestowitzHe seems to just be blogging a lot this weekend (after the ban)Aug 31 17:32
schestowitz British plan to tackle asteroids < > This doesn't prevent supernova-type impact which you can't see in advance cause it's reaching almost the speed of lightAug 31 17:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard apology or not, see what got exposure from Microsoft Press(R): 31 17:35
schestowitzWhy is Google using Solr for search? < >Aug 31 17:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Can Ubuntu 9.10 Outperform Mac OS X 10.6? || Yes it can, even in Alpha stage...Aug 31 17:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] "Of the 26 tests shown in this article, Ubuntu 9.10 "Karmic Koala" was the clear winner in 12 of the 26 tests"Aug 31 18:00
trmanco 31 18:03
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Teaser video from the Windows7sins event: 31 18:05
cubezzzsurely it's still possible to buy a Linux netbook?Aug 31 18:07
MinceRit's definitely not easyAug 31 18:07
MinceRespecially here in hungaryAug 31 18:07
cubezzzI've been buying used Panasonic Toughbooks and putting Fedora 10 on themAug 31 18:08
cubezzzseems to be a lot of those around, and Linux works well on themAug 31 18:08
schestowitzziggyfish: 31 18:08
schestowitzOops. * zoobab01 Aug 31 18:08
cubezzzMincR, does GNU/Linux have a big following in Hungary?Aug 31 18:09
cubezzzMinceRAug 31 18:10
MinceRit seems to score well on linuxcounter, but the masses are cluelessAug 31 18:10
cubezzznot positive, but I don't think we have software patents in CanadaAug 31 18:11
cubezzzthe patent has to include something about hardwareAug 31 18:12
cubezzzDell has been shipping some laptops with dual boot, XP + UbuntuAug 31 18:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vista 7 Sins – Teaser Video 31 18:19
schestowitzcubezzz: shipping them?Aug 31 18:20
schestowitzThat'd be newsAug 31 18:20
cubezzzyeah, his customer of mine said he got a dual boot machine and he didn't even ask for it to be dual bootAug 31 18:21
cubezzzXPS series I thinkAug 31 18:21
schestowitzStill Windows taxAug 31 18:22
cubezzztrueAug 31 18:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Microsoft Deal Fails to Appease Yahoo Shareholders: 31 18:23
schestowitzIt rains againAug 31 18:26
schestowitzFor wallclimber it's over 40 degrees celciusAug 31 18:27
schestowitztrmanco: is it really that much of a drought down south?Aug 31 18:27
schestowitzcubezzz: it's like serving you caviar with white bread on the sideAug 31 18:28
cubezzz;-)Aug 31 18:28
schestowitzThen charging premium for the breadAug 31 18:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] August 2009 Web Server Survey: 31 18:30
trmancoschestowitz, nopAug 31 18:30
trmancoit was already lowAug 31 18:30
schestowitzI found out something interetsing todayAug 31 18:31
schestowitzMicrosoft-NetcraftAug 31 18:31
schestowitzMicrosoft uses them for recommendation in 2000Aug 31 18:31
schestowitzMike PettyjohnAug 31 18:31
schestowitzWhat's his connection, if any, to Microsoft?Aug 31 18:31
trmanco 31 18:36
trmancopftAug 31 18:36
trmancothey deny itAug 31 18:37
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schestowitz 31 18:55
schestowitzHey, wallclimber Aug 31 18:55
schestowitzI haven't opened the mail yetAug 31 18:56
schestowitzI made 13 posts so far today, so maybe I should wait with the MOG one till the morningAug 31 18:56
schestowitztrmanco: Gavin ClarkeAug 31 18:56
schestowitzHe's a Microsoft shillerAug 31 18:56
schestowitzSo he helps the Microsoft PRAug 31 18:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] RT @natetrue: "...atheism destroys the possibility of personal identity, choice, and objective and subjective meaning." 31 18:57
schestowitzYes, telling kids they might go to burn in h*ll really give them "personal identity, choice, and objective and subjective meaning"Aug 31 19:00
schestowitzAdvocating And Supporting Insecure Practices < >Aug 31 19:01
schestowitzMandriva and Ubuntu both default to auto-login IIRCAug 31 19:01
schestowitzBad practiseAug 31 19:01
wallclimberNo worries and no hurry, it'll all get done in time.Aug 31 19:01
schestowitzLock workstation and anyone can get it by merely rebottingAug 31 19:01
schestowitzwallclimber: :-)Aug 31 19:01
schestowitzYes, just 4 moreAug 31 19:02
schestowitzNot long ones, eitherAug 31 19:02
wallclimberThat's good.Aug 31 19:02
wallclimberis there a way to make the font bigger in gedit?Aug 31 19:02
wallclimbercan I set the font size?Aug 31 19:03
wallclimberas it is, it strains my eyes to use it very muchAug 31 19:03
wallclimberis there a better text editor?Aug 31 19:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] A fazer o jantarAug 31 19:05
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yuhongWell, to be honest, I think the recent Reverb incident about astroturfing was about iPhone apps.Aug 31 19:11
yuhongNot about any of Apple's own products, but third-party iTunes applications.Aug 31 19:11
schestowitzSun sales plummet 30.6% in Q4 < >Aug 31 19:12
schestowitzyuhong: doesn't matterAug 31 19:12
schestowitzThe iPhone market is already covered elsewhereAug 31 19:12
schestowitzThe point of the BN post is differentAug 31 19:12
schestowitzAPple works with cyber-thugsAug 31 19:13
yuhongYes, but do they itself actually ask that PR firm to do unethical things?Aug 31 19:14
schestowitzTurns out EMC co-founder didn't quite dieAug 31 19:15
schestowitzHe shot himself: 31 19:15
schestowitzSmoked and got cancerAug 31 19:15
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yuhongI think they probably got enough marketing from fanboys, thanks to the magic of SJ. But we will see, of course.Aug 31 19:16
schestowitz"The devastating blow of stage 4 lung cancer came in May this year. He was not a healthy man, also suffering from diabetes, emphysema, and high blood pressure. Three months later he acted decisively, to end his life."Aug 31 19:16
schestowitzEwww "Joe Tucci"Aug 31 19:16
yuhong 31 19:16
schestowitzBallmer's buddyAug 31 19:17
schestowitzMagic of Steve Jobs?Aug 31 19:17
schestowitzWHat's that about?Aug 31 19:17
schestowitzMinceR: opinion?Aug 31 19:17
yuhongWell known, I think.Aug 31 19:17
yuhongBut that is not my point.Aug 31 19:17
schestowitzballmer is also well knownAug 31 19:18
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schestowitzHe doesn't make many fanboysAug 31 19:18
yuhongOf course.Aug 31 19:18
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yuhongNot as many as Steve Jobs, certainly.Aug 31 19:18
yuhongMy point is that, do Apple actually use this PR firm to do unethical things.Aug 31 19:19
yuhong 31 19:20
yuhongThat is not my point however.Aug 31 19:21
schestowitzWHo knows......Aug 31 19:22
schestowitzLet's checkAug 31 19:22
schestowitzHelp me out and do some googlingAug 31 19:22
schestowitzWere there incidents were apple got busted badly?Aug 31 19:22
schestowitzLike letters from dead people?Aug 31 19:22
schestowitzOr bribing bloggers? They do send schwagAug 31 19:22
schestowitz 31 19:23
schestowitzBN in #3 and #4. Heh.Aug 31 19:23
yuhongAnyway, Apple just released Snow Leopard, and back in WWDC 2009, Apple used similar words to BN to describe Vista 7, which I asked you to cover.Aug 31 19:23
yuhongAnd the first one was about a lobbying group doing astroturfing.Aug 31 19:24
schestowitz 31 19:25
schestowitz"Aug 31 19:25
schestowitz"beware of the Apple Shills"Aug 31 19:25
schestowitzon November 7, 2003Aug 31 19:25
schestowitzPros: Beware of reading too many reviews by the shills and plants from Apple. The I-Pod should truly fear this product, as I think it looks much cooler, and the joystick is great for navigation. I have had an iRiver flash player for over a year now, with no iAug 31 19:25
schestowitzCons: When is somebody going to come out with a good portable player with quality audio outputs that will transfer to my stereo system and has a decent remote."Aug 31 19:25
schestowitzPenny Arcade Apple Shills? < >Aug 31 19:27
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schestowitz "Even long-time Apple shills such as John Gruber and Macworld Magazine took Apple to task for its cheap shot, which prompted a well-placed and -timed jab back from Microsoft."Aug 31 19:28
schestowitzThe guy who wrote this is known to be quite a Microsoft fan himselfAug 31 19:28
twitterfirst line of penny arcade article ->  Update: I was wrong.  And I apologiseAug 31 19:29
yuhongThe last one was about Windows viruses, and the interesting thing is that there is enough Mac trojans now that Apple has built in basic protection into Snow Leopard.Aug 31 19:32
twitter"basic protection" was "built in" to Xandros too, but it was a farce.Aug 31 19:33
twitterbasic protection comes from good design, execution and diversityAug 31 19:33
yuhongYep, running as non-admin isolates viruses on all modern operating systems.Aug 31 19:34
twitterPraises for mac are believable.  I know people who love their macs and the things they say make sense.Aug 31 19:35
twitterPraises for Windows are not believable.  No one loves their Pee Cee anymore.Aug 31 19:35
ThistleWebboth Apple and Linux do have the advantage of genuine fans, somethingAug 31 19:36
twitterReal Windows users are defensive and insulting, but don't have much real praise for the software they use.  It's all "this is what everyone uses, you commie!"Aug 31 19:36
ThistleWebboth Apple and Linux do have the advantage of genuine fans, something MS will never have*Aug 31 19:36
yuhongYep, I know, it is called conformity.Aug 31 19:37
twitterand investment protection.Aug 31 19:37
twitterthey seek to protect their time and money investmentsAug 31 19:37
ThistleWebeven the most loyal MS employee must wonder at the quality of their products if they constantly have to pay people for praise, and can't win it on meritAug 31 19:37
yuhongXandros Anti-Virus was indeed a GUI front-end on ClamAV.Aug 31 19:38
ThistleWebbut then, if they're living in a bubble where all they see are MS productsAug 31 19:38
twitterOne of the first things people think of when you tell them that they could be using free software is, "do I have to throw away all of my software?"Aug 31 19:38
twitterthey fear leaving what they perceive is a majority position.Aug 31 19:39
yuhongAnd the answer is no, there is Wine or a couple of other solutions for running Win apps.Aug 31 19:39
twitterof course, M$ throws their software away for them quicker than gnu/linux doesAug 31 19:39
yuhongQuicker?Aug 31 19:39
twitterwine is probably better at running XP apps than Windows 7 will be, for exampleAug 31 19:40
schestowitzThis looks like Windows: 31 19:40
ThistleWebyou do need to be careful when talking of savings by switching to FOSS, as money already spent can't be reclaimed, only escaping the next round of spending to get future versions can be savedAug 31 19:40
twitteryet with dosbox you can run Windows 3.1 and applications.Aug 31 19:40
yuhongAnd Windows's NTVDM too.Aug 31 19:40
twittersticking with windows is spending good money after bad, the sooner you switch the more you save.Aug 31 19:41
yuhongUpgrades are free in Linux world in general.Aug 31 19:42
yuhongBut I wonder how long Linux binary compatiblity last.Aug 31 19:42
twitterVista was a tipping point.  There's way too much inertia in the turn for M$ to remain dominant.Aug 31 19:42
yuhongOf course not.Aug 31 19:42
twitterPeople are beginning to understand that the Windows experience will not improve.Aug 31 19:42
twitterThat makes alternatives the safe place to go.Aug 31 19:43
schestowitzLousy "prizes" 31 19:43
schestowitz<yuhong> But I wonder how long Linux binary compatiblity last.Aug 31 19:43
schestowitzBinary?Aug 31 19:43
schestowitzSee contradictonAug 31 19:43
ThistleWebVista was the first time the sheep rebelled against MS en masseAug 31 19:44
yuhongOf course.Aug 31 19:44
schestowitzNo product is removed from the market, eitherAug 31 19:44
yuhongOf course.Aug 31 19:44
schestowitzYou could virtualise Fedora 2, free of charge (if there's no way to comple anymore)Aug 31 19:44
ThistleWebI wonder how many will fall for Windows 7, then realise further down the line they've been connedAug 31 19:44
yuhongAnd Apple took big advantage of the rebellion.Aug 31 19:45
ThistleWeband how many of those will give MS anoother chance with Windows 8Aug 31 19:45
twitterless than were suckerd by vistaAug 31 19:45
schestowitzyuhong: Apple is for the rich, stillAug 31 19:45
yuhongIf you don't believe me, take a look at the Get a Mac ads from that era.Aug 31 19:45
schestowitzAPple has success in the USAug 31 19:45
schestowitzSo the English-speaking media pretends it's just Windows and AppleAug 31 19:45
yuhongI know, and the "Apple tax" was a big part of MS's defense against Apple.Aug 31 19:46
schestowitzMicrosoft and Apple focus on US, EU and Japan cause that's where the $$ isAug 31 19:46
schestowitzNot market shareAug 31 19:46
schestowitzThey are $-driven, not market share-drivenAug 31 19:46
schestowitzLinux spreads betterAug 31 19:46
yuhongYep.Aug 31 19:46
schestowitz"have it, it's free," is the Linux wayAug 31 19:46
yuhongYep.Aug 31 19:47
schestowitzIt would not make economic sense for APple to build shops in BrazilAug 31 19:47
ThistleWebI reckon most peeps don't think stuff like DRM affect them, until their shiney new Windows insists that some music they try to play is illegal, or some app they want to run is which point they will not be so keen to continue using Windows if they have to constantly look for iffy cracks to get round itAug 31 19:47
schestowitzSame with the OS and virusesAug 31 19:48
ThistleWeb"like butter, Linux spreads faster and smoother"Aug 31 19:48
MinceRschestowitz: on what exactly?Aug 31 19:48
schestowitzThey buy a new PC when viruses slow Windows downAug 31 19:48
yuhongOf course not.Aug 31 19:48
schestowitzAnd buy no music when it expiredAug 31 19:48
schestowitzmagentar: Aug 31 19:48
schestowitz<yuhong> I think they probably got enough marketing from fanboys, thanks to the magic of SJ. But we will see, of course.Aug 31 19:48
schestowitz^^ MinceR Aug 31 19:48
schestowitzMr. Magic JobsAug 31 19:49
MinceRi agreeAug 31 19:49
MinceRbut they still make their ownAug 31 19:49
schestowitzSJ... shines your kitchenAug 31 19:49
schestowitzIt's mmmmmmmmmmagicAug 31 19:49
MinceRthe fag^Wfanboys would probably miss the official marketing if it disappeared.Aug 31 19:49
schestowitzWatch the language there, MinceR Aug 31 19:49
ThistleWebAopple only want the affluent, who can afford to splash out on convienience and street-cred-with-their-mates stuffAug 31 19:49
schestowitzThistleWeb: is Linux is butter (better), does it make Microsoft toast?Aug 31 19:50
yuhongRedicious, I long ago posted a link, about what Apple actually does.Aug 31 19:50
ThistleWebmaybe, but I'm now in a quandry as I like burnt toastAug 31 19:50
yuhongFunny.Aug 31 19:50
schestowitzI burnt y toast on FriayAug 31 19:51
schestowitzAlmost set off the alarmAug 31 19:51
ThistleWeb@/ I may never look at toast the same way againAug 31 19:51
schestowitz*FridayAug 31 19:51
ThistleWebwell, when I say burnt....not too burnt but showingAug 31 19:51
ThistleWeblolAug 31 19:51
MinceRschestowitz: it was an honest typo ;)Aug 31 19:51
schestowitzA Beginner's Guide to Compiling Source Code 31 19:52
schestowitzThistleWeb: at some point you lose food moleculesAug 31 19:52
schestowitzNutrients turn to smokeAug 31 19:52
ThistleWebyeah I know, I look for well fired morning rolls tooAug 31 19:53
yuhongYep, I know.Aug 31 19:53
schestowitzIdeal is to get rid of the h2o and make no burning at allAug 31 19:53
schestowitzJust crispAug 31 19:53
yuhong 31 19:55
schestowitzFed chairman hit by ID thieves he must be Fed UpAug 31 19:57
ThistleWebapple are about being trendy, being part of an exclusive club. Many peeps buy them because they want to be accepted by their peers as part of that clubAug 31 19:57
yuhongYep.Aug 31 19:57
schestowitzApple is not trendyAug 31 19:58
schestowitzIt's an image they buyAug 31 19:58
schestowitzPR drekAug 31 19:58
yuhongI would not go that far.Aug 31 19:58
schestowitzIt's actually  a bit demeaning to some of their cleinteleAug 31 19:58
ThistleWebit helps that apple make slick products which give a very good user experience to the peeps who buy into apple's lifestyle and use apple apps for everythingAug 31 19:58
yuhongYep.Aug 31 19:59
ThistleWebpeople buy into the apple lifestyleAug 31 19:59
ThistleWebnot just a productAug 31 19:59
schestowitzIs it really "good user experience"?Aug 31 19:59
ThistleWebthey associate themselves with the apple imageAug 31 19:59
schestowitzI've used those and didn't notice the differenceAug 31 19:59
schestowitzIt's appliances, that's allAug 31 19:59
yuhongI think so.Aug 31 19:59
yuhongYep, integration sure play a lot of role here.Aug 31 19:59
ThistleWebfrom what I've heard, if you use your apple products with other apple products in the narrow ways apple like, then you'll have a very good experienceAug 31 20:00
schestowitzIs musicians like Apple, do they like DRM like apple? ;-)Aug 31 20:00
schestowitzPeople should be taught about what Apple does to musicAug 31 20:00
yuhongYep, Can you say integration?Aug 31 20:00
MinceRonly the "musicians" who own record companiesAug 31 20:00
MinceR(metallica)Aug 31 20:00
yuhongWell, they are now DRM-free for music.Aug 31 20:00
ThistleWebyou only start to see how much you are restrained when you start to step beyond what apple want from it's usersAug 31 20:01
schestowitzyuhong: nopAug 31 20:01
schestowitzThat's the PR lieAug 31 20:01
yuhongWhy?Aug 31 20:01
schestowitzSee OS XAug 31 20:01
schestowitzDRM messAug 31 20:01
ThistleWeblike prefering a different music app than iTunesAug 31 20:01
schestowitzThey also have tiered pricingAug 31 20:01
schestowitzNo DRM=more expensiveAug 31 20:01
yuhongNo, not anymore.Aug 31 20:01
yuhongBut at first, yes.Aug 31 20:01
MinceR 31 20:02
schestowitzSnow Leopard security - The good, the bad and the missing 31 20:02
yuhongThey are now DRM-free for music, not ONLY for music.Aug 31 20:02
ThistleWebplenty of people do like the apple lifestyleAug 31 20:02
yuhongThey are now DRM-free for music, but ONLY for music.Aug 31 20:02
ThistleWebalthough apple do seem to be doing their damnest to help test the faith of some fans / customers with some of the control freakery things they doAug 31 20:03
Diablo-D3I have DRM-free booksAug 31 20:03
Diablo-D3they're called... books.Aug 31 20:03
MinceRi have DRM-free books, too. they are called "text files"Aug 31 20:04
ThistleWebeach new story about apple's insane control freakery I see a few more previous apple fans say that's one too many, and claim not to buy apple any moreAug 31 20:04
yuhongAnd on the OS X "DRM mess", I like to mention PT_DENY_ATTACH, which is easily patched out because the xnu source is public.Aug 31 20:05
ThistleWebof course, any comments like that about any company can easily be just words, or heat of the mommentAug 31 20:05
schestowitzUS Senate cyber security bill sparks debate, "internet takeover" fears 31 20:06
yuhongAs an example of open source politics inside Apple.Aug 31 20:06
schestowitzApple yanks apps and uses patents offensivelyAug 31 20:07
ThistleWebsurely "internet takeover" is much more likely with a MS infrastructure, as well as the MS built in back doors, you have MS exploits leaving it a malware writers dreamAug 31 20:07
schestowitzAlso remember the breaking of interop, which had amarok stand up with PalmAug 31 20:07
MinceRyuhong: that PT_DENY_ATTACH part only shows crApple's intentions and their disdain for even their "developers".Aug 31 20:07
schestowitzPalm filed a complaint against AppleAug 31 20:07
MinceRyuhong: the executable format they use still has support for DRM.Aug 31 20:07
MinceRyuhong: and nobody asked them for that.Aug 31 20:07
ThistleWebpalm are just wankers lolAug 31 20:08
ThistleWebpun intended*Aug 31 20:08
MinceRwell, now they areAug 31 20:08
schestowitzThistleWeb: well yeah... just why countries other than the US need to abandon WidnowsAug 31 20:08
MinceRbut so are crApple.Aug 31 20:08
yuhongBut that is not my point, my point is that with xnu being open source it is easily patched out.Aug 31 20:08
yuhongThere is some kexts that patch it out, but that is not even nesserary when you have the source.Aug 31 20:09
MinceRmy point is that crApple thought their "developers" would be too stupid to realize that.Aug 31 20:09
yuhongAnd yes, Apple yanking apps is well known.Aug 31 20:09
MinceRDRM being ineffectual (as it always is) doesn't mean the users of DRM didn't want to screw their customers.Aug 31 20:10
MinceRit means they've tried hard and failed.Aug 31 20:10
yuhongOf course.Aug 31 20:10
MinceRand i don't think such behavior should be condoned, or even tolerated.Aug 31 20:10
schestowitzUS Dems fill inboxes with 419 scams < >Aug 31 20:11
yuhong 31 20:14
schestowitzLinux And Viruses: Should You Worry?  < >Aug 31 20:15
ThistleWebApple continually breaking compatibility baffles me, the user still buys from the Apple storeAug 31 20:15
yuhong 31 20:15
ThistleWebsame with blocking the iPod on linuxAug 31 20:16
ThistleWebthey're still buying an iPodAug 31 20:16
MinceRthey're idiots.Aug 31 20:17
MinceRand that article gets it wrongAug 31 20:17
ThistleWebit seems like being determined to refuse some customers unless they are willing to conform exactly to what you wantAug 31 20:17
MinceRcrApple's path to evil began with the LisaAug 31 20:18
yuhongBS, IMO.Aug 31 20:18
MinceRand throwing all respect toward computing and users to the wind.Aug 31 20:18
MinceRstarting the cult of the idiot box.Aug 31 20:18
ThistleWebmind you, it does go with the Apple "smugness" gene they build into everythingAug 31 20:18
yuhongLisa was long long ago, in 1983.Aug 31 20:18
MinceR(and m$ gladly joined the cult of the idiot box)Aug 31 20:18
MinceRyuhong: indeed.Aug 31 20:18
yuhongAnd was Lisa considered evil? I don't think so.Aug 31 20:19
MinceRi do consider it evilAug 31 20:19
MinceRit was the first instance of disposing of functionality in favor of "usability"Aug 31 20:19
yuhongThat IMO is not that evil.Aug 31 20:19
MinceRi consider it the antithesis of computing.Aug 31 20:19
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MinceRcomputers are there to help us process and manage information, not to be a toy we can give to idiots to play with.Aug 31 20:20
yuhongMaybe, but i would not go so far to consider that evil.Aug 31 20:20
yuhongDid anyone in 1983 consider Lisa evil, I doubt so.Aug 31 20:21
MinceRif functionality that would allow a particular user to get his job done is disposed, he won't get any closer to doing his job, no matter how easy it is for him to fool around otherwise.Aug 31 20:21
ThistleWebin 1983 the big kahuuna was IBMAug 31 20:21
MinceRi was too young to even know about it thenAug 31 20:21
ThistleWebcompanies like Apple and MS were plucky upstartsAug 31 20:22
yuhongOf course, but that is bad, not evil.Aug 31 20:22
MinceR(and too far inside the eastern bloc)Aug 31 20:22
ThistleWebpeeps favour the underdogAug 31 20:22
yuhongYep, and that is well known.Aug 31 20:22
ThistleWebthey give a lot more leeway to the underdog in what they do to competeAug 31 20:22
yuhongHow did MS became evil was another mess altegether.Aug 31 20:22
MinceRwell, i consider "well, you're just too damn stupid to be able to ever use this function, so we'll just throw it out!" evil.Aug 31 20:22
MinceRm$ has always been evilAug 31 20:23
yuhongI would consider it bad, but not evil.Aug 31 20:23
yuhongI always like to dig out this when talking about how MS has become evil.Aug 31 20:27
yuhong 31 20:27
ThistleWebpart of me wonders if govts would prefer windows to be the defacto standard even if MS wasn't gaming the systemAug 31 20:27
MinceRafaik they started out evil -- conning companies into buying their shoddy wares, many of which were stolen to begin with.Aug 31 20:28
ThistleWeban OS so insecure is a malware writers delight, which means it's easy for the security services to infect a suspects pc and spy on themAug 31 20:28
ThistleWebthrough a shell of courseAug 31 20:28
ThistleWebif the average user was on a more secure OS, that'd be much harder to do and they'd run out of easy targetsAug 31 20:29
ThistleWebI wouldn't be at all surpried to find some proof leaked in years to come about MS making a deal with DHS to ignore certain spyware in return for a freindly panel looking into anti-trust alegationsAug 31 20:30
ThistleWebact like a peice of software was a MS .dllAug 31 20:31
ThistleWeband marked "safe"Aug 31 20:31
yuhongMaybe, but I would not go that far.Aug 31 20:31
ThistleWeba system which lets software install without the user even being aware of it must be great for getting intelAug 31 20:32
ThistleWebmaybe it wouldn't be so blatantAug 31 20:32
ThistleWebmaybe it would only be a deal for the US govtAug 31 20:33
ThistleWebbeing the true patriots that they are /sarcasmAug 31 20:33
yuhongAnd, yep, MS's "stealing" of code from user groups was why the GPL was created.Aug 31 20:33
ThistleWebit's just a thought from the tinfoil hat departmentAug 31 20:34
yuhongAnd it was 6 years after that open letter to hobbyists that RMS decided that leaving other users helpless was bad, and thus started the free software movement.Aug 31 20:35
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schestowitz"It looks like the tipping point is arriving in the mobile phone space.Aug 31 20:54
schestowitzIf all these ship, then Samsung will be among those providing aAug 31 20:54
schestowitzlinux-based mobile phoneAug 31 20:54
schestowitz 31 20:54
schestowitz 31 20:54
schestowitzHope they can take time to clean house and find a nice out of the wayAug 31 20:54
schestowitzplace for any residual 'softers.Aug 31 20:54
schestowitzThe Samsung phone looks like it will be LiMo-based:Aug 31 20:54
schestowitz 31 20:54
schestowitz-Aug 31 20:54
schestowitzPS. I'm still thinking about the 30 & 120 second summaries."Aug 31 20:54
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ThistleWebmaybe Linux needs to be more what Windows users expect, perhaps Malware Linux would punch through more :PAug 31 21:03
ThistleWebcomplete with pre-installed wine running as rootAug 31 21:03
ThistleWeblolAug 31 21:04
Chips_B_Malroytoo many people do run as root.  and distro's that run as root by default should be shunnedAug 31 21:04
Chips_B_Malroyanybody here up on the Psystar article by PJ at 31 21:06
Chips_B_MalroyI have always agreed with  PJ, but on Psystar she seems to have come out in support of Apple, and their EULA and EFIAug 31 21:07
ThistleWebI don't think she favours anyone, she looks at it an interprets what she seesAug 31 21:08
Omar87_LOLAug 31 21:08
Chips_B_Malroymyself I cannot agree with the Apple or MS EULA so I run LinuxAug 31 21:08
Omar87_I love it when people start comparing netbooks to iphones. :)Aug 31 21:08
ThistleWebtries to explian complicated lawyer speak to non-lawyer types so they get the general jist of what's going onAug 31 21:09
Chips_B_MalroyThistleWeb, it almost seems she does favor Apple to me.  PJ still has great respect from me, and always will.Aug 31 21:09
Chips_B_MalroyPJ shines of the lawyer end, for sureAug 31 21:09
Chips_B_MalroyBut I view the EULA of MS and Apple with the same low regard as software patents in general.Aug 31 21:11
schestowitzNew video: Novell and his friends < >Aug 31 21:11
schestowitzHey, Chips_B_Malroy Aug 31 21:11
Chips_B_MalroyHi RoyAug 31 21:11
Omar87_Hi allAug 31 21:11
schestowitzOmar87_: yes, maybe to show how useless iphone isAug 31 21:12
schestowitzThe iphone ads hee brag about copy and paste *LOL*Aug 31 21:12
schestowitz*hereAug 31 21:12
Omar87_schestowitz: Some of them claim that netbooks suck because the monitor is too small, lol. :)Aug 31 21:13
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: yes, I skep Groklaw on PsystarAug 31 21:13
schestowitzShe's wasting FAR too much time defending a lousy comapnyAug 31 21:13
schestowitzApple has enough money for lawyersAug 31 21:13
Chips_B_MalroyIf anyone is interested in the comments on PJ's site, I would say the comments are going about 3 to 1 against Apple  in favor of Psystar.Aug 31 21:13
schestowitzIt's like silly people who defend OIN and help LF (IBM and coalition)Aug 31 21:14
schestowitzBut.....Psystar has resemblance to SCOAug 31 21:14
Omar87_schestowitz: They claim that you can bring the iPhone closer to your eyes while you can't do that with netbooks.Aug 31 21:14
schestowitzThat's why I thin pJ covers itAug 31 21:14
Chips_B_MalroyApple is as guilty IMO of illegal Eula as MS isAug 31 21:14
schestowitzOmar87_: why bother?Aug 31 21:15
Chips_B_MalroyI am not trolling PJ, as she has done so much for us.Aug 31 21:15
Omar87_schestowitz: lolAug 31 21:15
schestowitzIt might explode, tooAug 31 21:15
Omar87_schestowitz: Yeah.Aug 31 21:15
Chips_B_MalroyI agree with PJ that Apple will most likely win the court case, but thats because here in the states, big powerful corps winAug 31 21:16
schestowitzOf courseAug 31 21:17
schestowitzThey make the rulesAug 31 21:17
schestowitzSO they can adapt themAug 31 21:17
schestowitzRich people are also admired in the StatesAug 31 21:17
Chips_B_Malroysome of these corrupting corporations started out in the USA, but they have become mulitnationalAug 31 21:17
schestowitzIt comes through (mis)educationAug 31 21:17
Chips_B_MalroyRoy, they are admired, because they control the news mediaAug 31 21:18
schestowitzYesAug 31 21:18
Chips_B_Malroythink MSNBCAug 31 21:18
schestowitzAnd school curriculumAug 31 21:18
schestowitzGEAug 31 21:18
Chips_B_MalroyCNNAug 31 21:18
Chips_B_MalroyFoxAug 31 21:18
Chips_B_Malroyyou will never ever hear someone on those channels say that the Gates Foundation could just be a way to dodge taxes and control moneyAug 31 21:20
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schestowitzRestore Ubuntu Panels Back To Their Default Settings 31 21:21
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: I meant, NBC=GE, MSAug 31 21:21
schestowitzPeople don't mindAug 31 21:21
schestowitzTell them that a profit-making  companies tells them what to think of the world and they won't mindAug 31 21:21
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: USA Today has just published Gates PRAug 31 21:22
schestowitzAnd the Microsoft blogs linked to it, obviouslyAug 31 21:22
Chips_B_MalroyPJ has stated that if Psystar wins, and defeats the Eula, that will hurt the GPL.  I don't believe that.  She also says that it will kill MS.   Not so sure about that, unless there was an easy way to get your MS tax money back here in the USAug 31 21:22
schestowitzThis is appallingAug 31 21:22
schestowitzI don't care about PsystarAug 31 21:22
schestowitzIt's some dodgy tiny company not worth the fussAug 31 21:23
schestowitzI've not been persuaded otherwiseAug 31 21:23
Chips_B_Malroyme either, Psystar itself is nothing to me.   Mac OS X I don't use.  I had a loaner with Tiger for about 6 weeks a year or so ago.  I did not like it compared to Linux.  It was safer than windows, but what isn't?Aug 31 21:24
schestowitzPJ writing about APple reminds me of PhoronixAug 31 21:24
schestowitzThey get some other visitors... the Mac typesAug 31 21:24
schestowitz[Phoronx does OS X benchmarks now]Aug 31 21:25
schestowitzBut it's a distraction IMHOAug 31 21:25
Chips_B_Malroyguess u rightAug 31 21:25
schestowitzPJ could use the time looking at Linux topic. Again, IMHOAug 31 21:25
schestowitz*topicsAug 31 21:25
Chips_B_MalroyPsystar case will go on forever, is my guess, just like SCOAug 31 21:25
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schestowitzOS X does not do nice desktop effectsAug 31 21:26
schestowitzI just use the appsAug 31 21:26
schestowitzFirefox and allAug 31 21:26
schestowitzLinux has anti-aliasing Aug 31 21:26
schestowitzDaemonFC: I didn't ask MinceR to do what he didAug 31 21:26
DaemonFCFirefox malware is now in the wildAug 31 21:26
schestowitzI went to the gymAug 31 21:26
MinceRi regret nothingAug 31 21:26
schestowitzHe kicked you for some reason when left in guard, BUTAug 31 21:26
schestowitzYou have to stop trollingAug 31 21:26
schestowitzYou're already startingAug 31 21:27
DaemonFC 31 21:27
schestowitzAnti-Firefox rhetoricsAug 31 21:27
Chips_B_MalroyMac OS X you had to hunt for software like Windows, not a secure way to get your software, therefore not quite as secure as most GNU/Linux, IMOAug 31 21:27
schestowitzExtension=adding softwareAug 31 21:27
schestowitzYes, I can also add the rm -rf extensionAug 31 21:27
schestowitzThat's not a flawAug 31 21:27
schestowitzNow, let's stay on topicAug 31 21:27
DaemonFCnot if it's already deleted all your files and account settingsAug 31 21:28
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: they have no reposAug 31 21:28
schestowitzThey download and run stuffAug 31 21:28
DaemonFCif the payload is already delivered, how does removing it help?Aug 31 21:28
schestowitzI.e. same as Winders [sic]Aug 31 21:28
trmancoI'm sure every Firefox user knows where to get his extensionsAug 31 21:28
DaemonFCprovided you can even still log in or know there's something wrong (it could be hiding its activities)Aug 31 21:29
MinceRDaemonFC: um, you could use 31 21:29
schestowitzWarsow 0.5 released < >Aug 31 21:29
schestowitzGamezzzzz for LinuxAug 31 21:29
schestowitzMozilla does httpsAug 31 21:29
schestowitzThey also probe updatesAug 31 21:29
Omar87schestowitz: Is my twitter account still connected to this channel?Aug 31 21:29
schestowitzAfter that Korean translation that was maliciousAug 31 21:29
DaemonFCit is a social engineering exploit, the kind of people who install this tuff probably just forget about it and it lurks in the background spying on everyone that uses the computerAug 31 21:29
DaemonFCwhy would they know it was there?Aug 31 21:29
schestowitzOmar87: yes, why?Aug 31 21:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] Such an amazing video! I recommend everyone in the world to watch it: 31 21:29
DaemonFC*stuffAug 31 21:29
*MinceR social engineers DaemonFC to run "format c: /u /autotest" as AdministratorAug 31 21:30
schestowitzDaemonFC: let's not move in that subjectAug 31 21:30
DaemonFCthat's why I said that shared systems are the most at-risk and there's nothing to stop them from brute forcing your sudo passwordAug 31 21:30
schestowitzAnd nothing about your coder-decoder nonsense, eitherAug 31 21:30
Omar87schestowitz: No, nothing, I was just trying something. Thanks.Aug 31 21:30
schestowitzSo you got a new player I saw in RSSAug 31 21:30
DaemonFCso I suggest not letting other users have access to sudo or an Administrator accountAug 31 21:30
MinceRyeah, brute forcing passwords is omg-easyAug 31 21:30
schestowitzNot i* at leastAug 31 21:30
DaemonFCMinceR: It is if they have unlimited run time to figure it outAug 31 21:31
Chips_B_MalroyThis Firefox malware that DaemonFC puts the link to, is exactly what we are saying about Mac OS X and windows getting software from all over, its why GNU/Linux is more secure getting almost everything from a repo.  Even with Firefox, its best to get your extenstions and addons from them.Aug 31 21:31
DaemonFCgiven infinite time, almost any password chosen by a human can be crackedAug 31 21:31
MinceRDaemonFC: sure, if the life expectancy of the universe is not an issueAug 31 21:31
DaemonFCit wouldn't take that long, most passwords would be cracked in a matter of minutes or hoursAug 31 21:32
MinceRwho said a human has to choose? we have really nice random password generators aroundAug 31 21:32
MinceReven dicewareAug 31 21:32
Omar87DaemonFC: This ain't no theory, ya know. :)Aug 31 21:32
DaemonFCno it's not a theory, brute forcing works surprisingly well on most users because they can set up weak passwordsAug 31 21:33
DaemonFCmost server-grade operating systems force a minimum length, a certain number of capital letters, and two or three numbersAug 31 21:33
MinceRusers can set up weak passwords. they can also dunk their computer in a tub of water while it's turned on.Aug 31 21:33
DaemonFCyou can't make an account that uses weaker passwords cause it won't let youAug 31 21:34
MinceRi'd be happy to hear about those server-grade operating systems.Aug 31 21:34
Omar87DaemonFC: That's why companies use mechanisms to change the passwords every fraction of a second.Aug 31 21:34
MinceR(also, handholding a server admin? wtf?)Aug 31 21:34
Chips_B_MalroyLinux has been so secure it has not been necessary to set up more than simple passwordsAug 31 21:34
DaemonFCWindows Server has forced this since 2003Aug 31 21:34
MinceRLOLAug 31 21:34
schestowitzOrder your entropy enlarger from Pfizer nowAug 31 21:34
MinceRwindows is a server-grade operating system now?Aug 31 21:34
DaemonFCmore so than consumer WindowsAug 31 21:34
schestowitzAh gawdAug 31 21:34
schestowitzNow WIndows marketingAug 31 21:34
DaemonFCit's not a bad idea to force the user to set up a good passwordAug 31 21:34
MinceRum, what isn't more so than consumer windows?Aug 31 21:35
MinceRm$-dos?Aug 31 21:35
DaemonFCeven most Linux distributions warn you nowAug 31 21:35
Chips_B_Malroyand those complicated password have not helped windows that much eitherAug 31 21:35
MinceRit's a bad idea to let someone without any expertise to admin a server _at all_Aug 31 21:35
DaemonFCthat's why there's so many botnets and such, shared computersAug 31 21:36
Chips_B_Malroyits a bad idea to let anyone on the internet with windows periodAug 31 21:36
DaemonFCyou let a kid on your system, it can be toast in minutesAug 31 21:36
Chips_B_Malroya malware target just waiting to happen, windows isAug 31 21:36
MinceRi don't give root to the kid i let on my system.Aug 31 21:36
ThistleWebwhen people are forced to use passwords that are too long or awkward with chars, numbers etc they're more likely to write them downAug 31 21:36
Chips_B_Malroyor forget themAug 31 21:36
trmancothere is no way a normal computer can brute force a strong password protected with a md5 salted hashAug 31 21:36
MinceRnor do i give them my own password.Aug 31 21:36
schestowitzThistleWeb: that's a local security issueAug 31 21:37
schestowitzLike wife/kidsAug 31 21:37
MinceRpeople should use password managersAug 31 21:37
trmancothe only method that comes into my mind now is with rainbow tables, huge onesAug 31 21:37
Chips_B_Malroyhow many windows users have brought me their machines that cannot remember their passwordsAug 31 21:37
DaemonFCschestowitz: But Firefox's extensions essentially make it an operating system on an operating systemAug 31 21:37
schestowitzMinceR: my pw manager if my Palm address bookAug 31 21:38
DaemonFCthat's exactly the kind of bad behavior that made cross platform malware possibleAug 31 21:38
schestowitzWIth 'locks'Aug 31 21:38
MinceRDaemonFC: emacs is an OS on an OS too!Aug 31 21:38
trmancoyepAug 31 21:38
schestowitz[Which are easy to overcome]Aug 31 21:38
trmanco:DAug 31 21:38
schestowitzLinux / UNIX: Test Graphical Performance ( 3D Acceleration / FPS ) < >Aug 31 21:39
DaemonFC 31 21:39
DaemonFCThere's what the extensions menu would look like with this spyware installedAug 31 21:40
DaemonFCpretty convincing huh?Aug 31 21:40
Chips_B_Malroyevery OS will be open to Trojans.  But GNAug 31 21:40
MinceRthe one that runs out of ROM and nobody can install apps on would probably be safeAug 31 21:40
Chips_B_MalroyBut GNU/Linux will be less suseptible toAug 31 21:40
MinceR(thin clients might work, if you lock down the server enough)Aug 31 21:40
Chips_B_MalroyTrojans are most files come from reposAug 31 21:41
DaemonFCMinceR: Which is why I welcomed the idea of "Splashtop Linux"Aug 31 21:41
schestowitzToo diverseAug 31 21:41
schestowitzAlso randoming stuffAug 31 21:41
schestowitzBad extensions are a matter of scarcityAug 31 21:41
DaemonFCit makes it easy to browse the web from something that has no access to your installed systemAug 31 21:41
MinceRDaemonFC: well, i didn't look at it that way, but you're right about thatAug 31 21:41
schestowitzWhen people have loaded repos they don't look 'out thereAug 31 21:41
MinceRthen again, a livecd/livedvd could do that tooAug 31 21:41
schestowitz'Same with Firefox extsnsionsAug 31 21:42
DaemonFCyeah, but it's much slower that wayAug 31 21:42
schestowitzI only use stuff from Mozilla's repoAug 31 21:42
DaemonFCrunning from your system firmware ROM, booting into Splashtop is nearly instantAug 31 21:42
schestowitzHow To Enable RAR Support In Ubuntu Linux 31 21:42
DaemonFCYou can boot into a working Linux environment that can't harm your system in under 10 secondsAug 31 21:42
DaemonFCthat was what impressed meAug 31 21:42
schestowitzThe issue is this: Advocating And Supporting Insecure Practices < >Aug 31 21:43
schestowitzAuto-login is sillyAug 31 21:43
schestowitzEsp. in shared envsAug 31 21:43
Chips_B_MalroyWindows and Mac users have to hunt all over the internet for freeware programs and trojans are commonplace on those systemsAug 31 21:43
DaemonFCit's also funny because the Splashtop environment wouldn't be affected by any censorware installed in the real operating systemAug 31 21:43
DaemonFCso kids could hit like, F8 and boot into an OS that doesn't have the nannywareAug 31 21:44
schestowitzNICE >> "While I am still pondering a good topic for my next CS oriented post, I thought I would finally take the time to promote and show off some of the changes I have been making to the Kubuntu installer, Ubiquity." 31 21:44
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy: I've seen a few interesting examples of malware piggybacking on cracked Windows softwareAug 31 21:45
DaemonFCit is a real concern, probably overplayed by Microsoft and the BSA, but it's out thereAug 31 21:45
DaemonFCthe best lies have a grain of truth because it makes them easier to swallowAug 31 21:46
DaemonFCsaying "pirated software can contain viruses" is true, saying "most pirated software contains viruses" is a lie with an element of truthAug 31 21:46
schestowitz:S Python... Gross < >Aug 31 21:46
DaemonFCit still accomplishes their goal of scaring the reader without providing real statsAug 31 21:46
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC,  almost any software can be trojaned.  P2P stuff, I would think too.  Freeware stuff for windows is routinely.Aug 31 21:48
DaemonFCI wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft put some of those "infected" Windows discs on torrent sitesAug 31 21:48
DaemonFCand conspired with antivirus makers to "detect" the "infection"Aug 31 21:48
DaemonFCbut you should still make sure the MD5 and SHA1 match what the official image computes toAug 31 21:49
DaemonFCI've seen where antivirus makers have been paid to detect things like keygens that upon further analysis, posed no harm to the system (it's true that some really are harmful though) *shrugs*Aug 31 21:50
DaemonFCalmost all the name brand antivirus detects software cracks and keygens that are benign to system security, I've seen NOD32, Avast, AVG, Norton, McAfee, Trend PC-Cillin, and Norton all doing itAug 31 21:51
Chips_B_MalroyThe last xp install I did a had a piece of windows freeware that a trojan passed threw 4 antivirus programs and 1 antimalware scan, and only after install did it detect.  It was so bad, that even after I got rid of it, the antivirus sites recommended repartitioning, installing a fresh mbr, reformattingAug 31 21:51
DaemonFCerr, I mentioned Norton twice :PAug 31 21:51
DaemonFCprobably because it's the worst out of the bunch for false alarms and letting real malware inAug 31 21:51
Chips_B_Malroywindows is not worth the pain of installing because the the trojan problemAug 31 21:52
DaemonFCI worked on my aunt's laptop for over three hours a couple months ago pulling out spyware infestations that bypassed and disabled Norton, crippled Windows Firewall and Defender, and shut down Automatic UpdatesAug 31 21:52
DaemonFCit's really that easy to bypass Norton that all the really bad stuff out there does itAug 31 21:53
Chips_B_MalroyIn windows, my trick was to install about 4 antivirus programs but to use only one as a shield, or memory resident.  That way I could update and scan with each.Aug 31 21:53
DaemonFCthe only reason I bothered to disinfect the system was so I could back up her documents without it freezing and crashingAug 31 21:53
DaemonFCI still had to do a format and reinstallAug 31 21:53
DaemonFCthe damage that the spyware did to that copy of Vista was permanent, and even removing the spyware wouldn't fix itAug 31 21:54
schestowitz Enchance your vlc player with new skins < >Aug 31 21:54
Chips_B_Malroyfor bad windows malware infections, you had better run dban on your hard drive DaemonFCAug 31 21:54
schestowitzbecause of Ubuntu many people think of Linux as the "Brown OS"|Aug 31 21:54
schestowitzjono: how is the re-theming of Ubuntu coming along?Aug 31 21:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: I wish they'd switch to the Dust theme by defaultAug 31 21:54
MinceRit seems Karmic will be redAug 31 21:54
DaemonFCthat's a lot more elegant than "Human"Aug 31 21:54
schestowitzMinceR: part of karma?Aug 31 21:54
MinceRat least the bootup race seemed to show it as suchAug 31 21:55
MinceRbut it was a low-quality videoAug 31 21:55
schestowitzIt's more like greyish from what I sawAug 31 21:55
schestowitzPeople show Ubuntu as the "Linux reference"Aug 31 21:55
schestowitzIt bodes badly next to other OSesAug 31 21:55
schestowitzIt's just a themeAug 31 21:55
DaemonFCI'm really watching KDE more than GNOME anyway latelyAug 31 21:55
schestowitzBut they could pick something from gnome-lookAug 31 21:55
DaemonFCGNOME distributions like Ubuntu have done a lot of bad things that I don't really like or agree withAug 31 21:56
trmancokde has better integration than gnomeAug 31 21:56
DaemonFCmainly with regards to dumbing the system downAug 31 21:56
DaemonFCand PulseaudioAug 31 21:56
trmancopulseaudio is fineAug 31 21:56
Chips_B_MalroyI am coming across more and more hard drives that cannot be reconized until DBAN is run on them because of windows malware that even affects the partition tables and the mbrAug 31 21:56
schestowitzFine.Aug 31 21:56
DaemonFCdumbing down of GNOME is why the GUI utilities are useless and you end up making shell scripts to avoid themAug 31 21:56
MinceRpulseaudio sucksAug 31 21:56
trmancoah geezeAug 31 21:57
MinceRit should be made non-standardAug 31 21:57
MinceRi mean non-defaultAug 31 21:57
trmancopulseaudio worksAug 31 21:57
DaemonFCI'd rather have "too many options" in a program than have them remove the one or two that I needAug 31 21:57
MinceRuntil you load the systemAug 31 21:57
trmancoI have my system fully loadedAug 31 21:57
trmancoyou are probably using an old versionAug 31 21:57
MinceRthe last version i used was in jaunty, i thinkAug 31 21:58
MinceRin any case, it's pointless bloatAug 31 21:58
schestowitzWindows has audio hangupsAug 31 21:58
DaemonFCJaunty uses Pulseaudio 0.9.14Aug 31 21:58
schestowitzWhen I used it anyway it didAug 31 21:58
DaemonFCwhich had many visible bugsAug 31 21:58
trmancopulseaudio 0.9.14Aug 31 21:58
schestowitzDecade agoAug 31 21:58
trmancoyesAug 31 21:58
trmancoand it worksAug 31 21:58
MinceRwell, when i used windows it had task scheduling that made it practically unfit for playing music in the backgroundAug 31 21:58
MinceRit probably still has thatAug 31 21:58
schestowitzWindows chops musicAug 31 21:58
DaemonFCschestowitz: The new audio stack in Windows works fairly wellAug 31 21:58
schestowitzOld Linux had more of this issueAug 31 21:59
schestowitzOld as in oldAug 31 21:59
DaemonFCWindows 9x was pure garbageAug 31 21:59
jonoschestowitz, not had much time to work on itAug 31 21:59
schestowitzThat's working very well nowAug 31 21:59
schestowitzSame for cursor interactionAug 31 21:59
trmancoschestowitz, it does when you putt too much load onto the FSAug 31 21:59
schestowitzin SuSE 8 the cursor would slow down under loadAug 31 21:59
schestowitzNot it's extremely rare as it gets high priorityAug 31 21:59
trmancosimply by opening explorer is too much for the FSAug 31 21:59
DaemonFCI never really liked 9x, I switched over to NT as soon as they had hardware DirectX acceleration (Windows 2000)Aug 31 21:59
*Guest45182 is now known as BalrogAug 31 21:59
schestowitzI'm sure jono changes the brown to somehing blackAug 31 22:00
MinceRNT couldn't even set the 0th palette entryAug 31 22:00
MinceRit was unfit for gamingAug 31 22:00
DaemonFCI was dual booting with NT 4 but I went with Windows NT 5 (2000) full timeAug 31 22:00
DaemonFCI used 98 though, til it was outAug 31 22:00
MinceRthe background flash in WinQuake looked horrid because of that bugAug 31 22:00
schestowitzMinceR: toying yes, gaming noAug 31 22:01
DaemonFCMinceR: NT 4 had to use software accelerated DirectXAug 31 22:01
DaemonFCthat caused a whole bunch of issuesAug 31 22:01
MinceR(we played that a lot on school computers back in the day)Aug 31 22:01
*trmanco times haven't changed...Aug 31 22:02
DaemonFCbasically with NT 4, gaming was off limits unless you had a really really fast CPUAug 31 22:02
DaemonFCwhich I did, but I still had Windows 98 for games, which allowed hardware acceleration :PAug 31 22:02
trmancowhat kind of fast? 1Ghz?Aug 31 22:02
MinceRputting the windowing system into the kernel did a fat lot of good to it :>Aug 31 22:02
MinceRX was still faster in userspaceAug 31 22:02
DaemonFCtrmanco: By 1998 standards, 300-400 Mhz was hella-fastAug 31 22:02
trmanco:|Aug 31 22:03
DaemonFCI started that system with dual K6/2 300sAug 31 22:03
trmancotape sized cpu'sAug 31 22:03
DaemonFCand ended up with dual K6/2 550sAug 31 22:03
DaemonFC:DAug 31 22:03
trmancoheheAug 31 22:03
DaemonFCso it could handle anything I threw at it even without a graphics accelerator, I only really had those for the extra visual effects and later when games did start needing themAug 31 22:04
DaemonFCI had two Voodoo 5 5500's in SLI mode by the end of the upgradesAug 31 22:04
DaemonFCNvidia and ATI just had nothing like it (Nvidia got it when they bought 3dfx)Aug 31 22:05
DaemonFCalso had 768 kbps ADSL back when that was considered practically lightspeed :PAug 31 22:06
DaemonFCI ran an OpenNap server til I got a cease and desist notice from the RIAAAug 31 22:06
DaemonFCthat was before they were suing people but were sending out threatening letters like crazyAug 31 22:07
schestowitz<DaemonFC> trmanco: By 1998 standards, 300-400 Mhz was hella-fastAug 31 22:07
schestowitzNo, maybe 97 or 96Aug 31 22:07
DaemonFCWindows 98 still ran on a 486Aug 31 22:07
DaemonFCat 66 Mhz I believeAug 31 22:08
DaemonFCnot exactly fast, but it did run, there was no "Product Activation" back then so if you had one Windows disc you were using that same copy on everything in the houseAug 31 22:09
DaemonFCso I had an old 486 I tried it out onAug 31 22:09
MinceReven if you had a 286 in the house?Aug 31 22:09
DaemonFC286 was a 16-bit CPU you know?Aug 31 22:10
DaemonFCit may run the original MINIX or Windows 3.1 in Standard ModeAug 31 22:10
DaemonFCWindows 3.11 only ran in 386 enhanced mode, there was a debugging mode that would start up in Standard Mode, but you couldn't do muchAug 31 22:11
DaemonFCso you really really needed a 386 by thenAug 31 22:11
trmancoI had an old IBM Pentium with 3.11Aug 31 22:12
DaemonFCbut that was like 1993 if I recall, a 286 was already ancientAug 31 22:12
trmanco3.1*Aug 31 22:12
trmancoI then installed 95Aug 31 22:12
MinceR"if you had one Windows disc you were using that same copy on everythingAug 31 22:12
MinceR                   in the house"Aug 31 22:12
DaemonFCok, within reasonAug 31 22:13
DaemonFCgeezAug 31 22:13
MinceRnow that we bring reason into the picture, there isn't that much left for win98 ;)Aug 31 22:13
MinceReven the old pentium mmx 233 in the other room runs painfully slow with itAug 31 22:14
DaemonFCit's more constrained by too little RAM than slow processorsAug 31 22:14
MinceRiirc it has 48 MB or something weird like thatAug 31 22:15
DaemonFCthere's your problemAug 31 22:15
DaemonFCat the time, 32 megs was the bare minimumAug 31 22:15
MinceRyes, the problem is that in windows, memory management sucks even more than task schedulingAug 31 22:15
DaemonFCnot reallyAug 31 22:15
MinceRyes reallyAug 31 22:16
DaemonFCthe performance monitoring tools will show you how much RAM each process is usingAug 31 22:16
DaemonFCWindows 7 uses about as much as UbuntuAug 31 22:16
trmancowtfAug 31 22:16
trmancowindows 7 uses twice as much as ubuntuAug 31 22:16
MinceRDaemonFC: i think you're counting disk buffers into that memory usage figure on ubuntu there :>Aug 31 22:16
DaemonFCeven with tons of tabs open in Opera, and Utorrent running several torrents, and playing a music file in Foobar2000, and the antivirus, and all that, I'm sitting at about 1 gig of used RAM right nowAug 31 22:17
DaemonFCUbuntu doesn't last that long before it's up over a gigAug 31 22:17
trmanco...Aug 31 22:17
MinceRbut at least now you don't run out of GDI and USER memory (or whatever those pools were)Aug 31 22:17
trmancothat's a lieAug 31 22:17
DaemonFCwithout at least a gig, Ubuntu is jsut painfulAug 31 22:17
trmancoas MinceR said you must be counting buffersAug 31 22:18
DaemonFCI tried to run it on an older Dell with 512 megs and it was thrashing the disk trying to keep up with FirefoxAug 31 22:18
DaemonFClolAug 31 22:18
trmancoyeah, sure it wasAug 31 22:18
Chips_B_MalroyThe problem with windows is:  malware, price, stability, phoning home, WGA, DRM, constant patches, upgrade cycles, reboots almost dailyAug 31 22:18
DaemonFCI don't believe anyone would be happy with Ubuntu and 512 megs of RAMAug 31 22:18
trmancofree -mAug 31 22:18
trmanco             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cachedAug 31 22:18
trmancoMem:          1002        924         77          0         28        418Aug 31 22:18
trmanco-/+ buffers/cache:        477        524Aug 31 22:18
trmancoSwap:         2243         33       2209Aug 31 22:18
trmancosee cachedAug 31 22:18
trmancothat's what countsAug 31 22:19
Chips_B_Malroybelieve itAug 31 22:19
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy: I've had this system up for over 10 days nowAug 31 22:19
trmancoI mean buffers/cacheAug 31 22:19
Chips_B_MalroyI have a relative running Ubuntu with 512mb of ram, happy tooAug 31 22:19
DaemonFCthe last reboot was to install Daemon Tools which has to run as a rootkit to fool SecuROMAug 31 22:19
trmancoI know of people running ubuntu on 512MBAug 31 22:19
trmancoeven lessAug 31 22:20
DaemonFCI popped in a spare 512 MB module in the Dell to bring it up to 1 GBAug 31 22:20
DaemonFCUbuntu woke up thenAug 31 22:20
trmanconahAug 31 22:20
trmancothen must must have a crapload of bloat thenAug 31 22:20
DaemonFCnope, freshly installedAug 31 22:20
trmancothat bullshitAug 31 22:20
trmancoisAug 31 22:20
DaemonFCI'm not saying GNOME isn't bloated thoughAug 31 22:21
DaemonFCit really isAug 31 22:21
DaemonFCXFCE will run fine in 512 megsAug 31 22:21
trmancoand so will gnomeAug 31 22:21
DaemonFCGNOME needs 1 GBAug 31 22:21
Chips_B_MalroyGnome might be a little more bloatedAug 31 22:21
trmancobut it's not that bloatedAug 31 22:21
DaemonFCI ended up using LXDE regardlessAug 31 22:21
DaemonFCit's just so much faster than GNOME on 1 GB or less that it's ridiculousAug 31 22:22
Chips_B_Malroybut wait till Miguel adds more Mono to it, then it really will be bloatedAug 31 22:22
DaemonFCwith LXDE, you're looking at running Linux well with 256 megsAug 31 22:22
DaemonFCyou may get away with 128 megs with WindowMakerAug 31 22:22
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, agreed the window manager in Linux makes a huge difference in memory useageAug 31 22:23
Chips_B_MalroyIceWMAug 31 22:23
DaemonFCit's night and day really, if you don't have at least 1 GB, use LXDE is what I always tell peopleAug 31 22:23
DaemonFCcause the system lagging behind you is annoying as all hellAug 31 22:24
DaemonFCmuch more so than putting up with a "lighter" desktop environmentAug 31 22:24
Chips_B_Malroyits good for running virtuabox on marginal machines, then use a low resource WMAug 31 22:24
Chips_B_Malroybut most distro's will let you select the window manager at the log in screenAug 31 22:25
DaemonFCIt's nothing against GNOME or KDE, but more features always means more resourcesAug 31 22:25
Chips_B_Malroysometimes users need the full feature wmAug 31 22:25
DaemonFCGNOME has a lot of feature bloat and fewer and fewer options with every release, it's really bizarreAug 31 22:26
DaemonFChow something can get more bloated and less useful at that rate in 6 month intervals is mind blowingAug 31 22:26
Chips_B_MalroyI stopped trying to keep up with GnomeAug 31 22:26
Chips_B_Malroyor UbuntuAug 31 22:26
trmancoyou're on what now?Aug 31 22:27
DaemonFCI've started promoting KDE as the preferable full desktop lately, and LXDE as the lightweightAug 31 22:27
Chips_B_MalroyMepis 8, KDE 3.5.10Aug 31 22:27
trmanco:)Aug 31 22:27
Omar87_Man, programming is so damn boring when you work alone.Aug 31 22:27
trmancoOmar87, alone how?Aug 31 22:28
trmancoalone at home or alone (closed source)?Aug 31 22:28
Omar87trmanco: With no team.Aug 31 22:28
trmancoyes sometimes it might be frustratingAug 31 22:28
trmancobut it's even more frustrating when you have a team of incompetent idiots...Aug 31 22:29
Omar87trmanco: So true.Aug 31 22:29
trmancoI prefer working alone in that caseAug 31 22:29
Omar87trmanco: Same here.Aug 31 22:29
Omar87trmanco: I'm trying to learn Django. Too bad Python is not so famous in Jordan. So finding a good team of Django'ers in Jordan seems more like a dream that won't come true anytime soon.Aug 31 22:31
trmancohehAug 31 22:31
trmancois that some kind of a framework?Aug 31 22:32
Omar87trmanco: Yup.Aug 31 22:32
MinceRwebapp frameworkAug 31 22:32
Omar87trmanco: An amazing one.Aug 31 22:32
trmancoheh, good luckAug 31 22:32
Omar87trmanco: Thanks.Aug 31 22:32
MinceRit's probably better than Ruby on Fails :>Aug 31 22:32
Omar87MinceR: LOL. :DAug 31 22:32
Diablo-D3hehAug 31 22:33
trmanco...Aug 31 22:33
Diablo-D3java > *Aug 31 22:33
trmancoI like rubyAug 31 22:33
neighborlee who cares about gnome..they think mono is safe using tomboy, what else is there to sayAug 31 22:33
Diablo-D3gnome sucks anyhowAug 31 22:33
MinceRi do -- they have a panel that can display the clock vertically :>Aug 31 22:33
trmancooh c'monAug 31 22:33
MinceR(and the date)Aug 31 22:33
Diablo-D3I'm pondering if kde4 is worth trying outAug 31 22:33
Diablo-D3as much as I hate kde, gnome has gotten incredibly shittyAug 31 22:34
trmancoDiablo-D3, I've heard it isAug 31 22:34
Chips_B_Malroywaiting for as long as I can to move to KDE4Aug 31 22:35
Omar87Diablo-D3: What would you recommend as an alternative to Gnome and KDE?Aug 31 22:35
trmancoI'll move in a couple of weeksAug 31 22:35
trmancoI'm tired of gnomeAug 31 22:35
Omar87Diablo-D3: Please don't tell me XFCE.Aug 31 22:35
trmancotime for a fresh startAug 31 22:36
Diablo-D3omar87: something not involving XAug 31 22:36
Omar87trmanco: I'm starting to hate too.Aug 31 22:36
trmancoI don't hate itAug 31 22:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Linux Runs on Vista 7 (Picture) 31 22:36
Diablo-D3I wonder if xfce has gotten unfuckedAug 31 22:37
Omar87trmanco: Actually, yeah, me neither. But I'm kind of feeling bored of it.Aug 31 22:37
trmancoI'm just sick of seeing the same apps and panels... I don't mod much my desktop... how it comes is how a normally use it with some minor little tweaksAug 31 22:37
trmancoAnd I don't like to mixAug 31 22:37
Omar87Diablo-D3: e.g.: Fluxbox?Aug 31 22:37
Omar87Diablo-D3: or Openbox?Aug 31 22:38
trmancoif the DE is gtk based, I stick with gtk based apps, no QT...Aug 31 22:38
trmancoand vice-versaAug 31 22:38
Diablo-D3I could care less about the dumb qt/gtk fuckery anymoreAug 31 22:38
Diablo-D3I can make either look like the otherAug 31 22:38
trmancowhat do you use?Aug 31 22:38
trmancoascii?Aug 31 22:38
MinceRi freely mix gtk and qt appsAug 31 22:38
MinceRand the curse at the bugs of both toolkits :>Aug 31 22:39
MinceR(gtk seems to be more annoying though)Aug 31 22:39
trmancoI like to keep my stuff as consistent as possibleAug 31 22:39
*cubezzz-laptop ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 31 22:39
MinceRi use qtcurve for both so they look consistentAug 31 22:39
MinceR(except for qt4 apps, which tend to look a little different)Aug 31 22:40
DaemonFCQT 4 seems to be a much better toolkit than GTK+Aug 31 22:40
trmancowhat about all those gtk libs that are loaded when you first use an appAug 31 22:40
DaemonFCit's unfortunate that Google chose GTK+, probably throwing all the Ubuntu users a boneAug 31 22:40
MinceRi have 4GB of RAM. :>Aug 31 22:40
trmancoDaemonFC, didn't you have some kind of disease against KDE? especially KDE 4.xAug 31 22:40
trmancoahAug 31 22:40
trmancoI seeAug 31 22:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: OS deathmatch: Snow Leopard vs Windows 7 31 22:40
trmancoI only have 1 :|Aug 31 22:40
MinceRanyway, those libs never seemed all that problematic to meAug 31 22:41
trmancoand I don't expect to upgrade anytime soonAug 31 22:41
DaemonFCthe quality of the toolkit and the quality of KDE 4 are separate issuesAug 31 22:41
DaemonFCKDE as of 4.3 is pretty good though, and usable as of 4.2Aug 31 22:41
trmancoas the toolkit evolves so does kdeAug 31 22:41
trmancoI see you slightly changed your mind about itAug 31 22:41
DaemonFCwell, KDE 4.0 was a disaster and it took them a while to sort it outAug 31 22:42
trmanco...Aug 31 22:42
DaemonFCwhen that was the competition, GNOME looked betterAug 31 22:42
DaemonFC:)Aug 31 22:42
trmancoI wonder how gnome 3.0 will beAug 31 22:42
MinceRit was a work in progressAug 31 22:42
MinceRreleasing it was the disaster.Aug 31 22:42
MinceRtrmanco: i fear for GNOME Shell.Aug 31 22:42
trmancoI phear mono based gnomeAug 31 22:42
MinceRit might mean loss of panel functionality.Aug 31 22:42
MinceR(what little there was, anyway)Aug 31 22:43
DaemonFCMinceR:  They never would have taken the criticism if they labeled it as a beta and kept KDE 3.x going for another yearAug 31 22:43
trmancothat would just take sime time to get use toAug 31 22:43
DaemonFCthey were trying to get more users to stumble onto more bugs and report themAug 31 22:43
DaemonFCand they got it :PAug 31 22:43
MinceRDaemonFC: or if distro maintainers have waited with forcing users to switch.Aug 31 22:43
trmanco... and they fixed themAug 31 22:43
trmancomost of themAug 31 22:43
DaemonFCDebian and Mepis are still using KDE 3.5, right?Aug 31 22:44
MinceRi'm afraid GNOME will live through the same hard times with 3.0Aug 31 22:44
MinceRDebian Lenny is 3.5Aug 31 22:44
DaemonFCapparently they want to let KDE 4.x continue settlingAug 31 22:44
MinceRi read the next release will only have kde4, though :/Aug 31 22:44
DaemonFCmost likelyAug 31 22:44
MinceRi don't see why is it such a big problem to have kde3 and kde4 installed side-by-sideAug 31 22:44
DaemonFCKDE will probably be 4.4 by the next Debian releaseAug 31 22:44
cubezzz-laptopdidn't like kde 4+Aug 31 22:44
DaemonFCMinceR: It's tacky and they don't want to support itAug 31 22:45
trmanco4.4 is due in late JanuaryAug 31 22:45
cubezzz-laptoptoo piggy and too slowAug 31 22:45
DaemonFCbut you can install KDE 4 on Debian unofficiallyAug 31 22:45
MinceRDaemonFC: i wonder if kde4 dolphin or konqueror has the usable find functionality i'm used to.Aug 31 22:45
MinceRlast time i checked it was an unusable, horrid mess.Aug 31 22:45
trmancohehAug 31 22:45
schestowitzOmar87: you can use online communitiesAug 31 22:46
trmancoMinceR, what do you use as you web browser?Aug 31 22:46
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, Mepis 8 is currently based on Debian and using KDE 3.5.  Warren is working on Mepis 8.5 which will use KDE 4.3 as defaultAug 31 22:46
MinceRcurrently iceweaselAug 31 22:46
trmancothat's gtk :|Aug 31 22:46
cubezzz-laptopgnome doesn't seem to have it's own version of klipper nowadaysAug 31 22:46
MinceRif i have time to get stow sorted out, i'll probably have ff 3.5 and operaAug 31 22:46
MinceRand i'll give Iron for Linux a try.Aug 31 22:46
DaemonFCI use Konqueror on my KDE systemsAug 31 22:46
trmancoah opera is cuteAug 31 22:46
DaemonFCas the file browserAug 31 22:46
trmanco(QT)Aug 31 22:46
MinceRQt, not QTAug 31 22:46
MinceRQT is QuickTime. :>Aug 31 22:46
trmancoyesAug 31 22:47
DaemonFC(Dolphin is the default, but Konqueror is still selectable in the control panel)Aug 31 22:47
trmancook sorryAug 31 22:47
trmanco:-PAug 31 22:47
MinceRnot even Konqueror has the kde3 find behaviorAug 31 22:47
trmancoI kinda kept shift pressed for too longAug 31 22:47
MinceRwhich puts a find panel on top, instead of in a new windowAug 31 22:47
Chips_B_Malroymidnight commander is also an optionAug 31 22:47
MinceRand uses the same icon view for the results instead of a reduced functionality listAug 31 22:47
MinceRmidnight commander uses the mouse less effectivelyAug 31 22:47
Chips_B_MalroymcAug 31 22:47
trmancoany gecko based Qt browser?Aug 31 22:47
Chips_B_MalroytrueAug 31 22:48
DaemonFCtrmanco: Nope.Aug 31 22:48
MinceRalso, the find window kde4 uses is undecorated and hard to dig up if you lose itAug 31 22:48
trmancowebkit?Aug 31 22:49
DaemonFCGecko doesn't make a good rendering engine for projects outside of FirefoxAug 31 22:49
DaemonFCeven GNOME admits that nowAug 31 22:49
MinceRIron uses WebKitAug 31 22:49
trmancoit works fine in epiphanyAug 31 22:49
DaemonFCMinceR: Mandriva 2010 will have Epiphany using WebkitAug 31 22:49
DaemonFCand the extensions set has been ported so that includes adblock and suchAug 31 22:49
MinceRKazehakase had the option for a long time tooAug 31 22:49
MinceRi couldn't get it to work though.Aug 31 22:49
DaemonFCI've just never liked the thought of having Xulrunner as a system componentAug 31 22:50
DaemonFCit reminds me of IE 4 too muchAug 31 22:50
trmancookAug 31 22:50
DaemonFCwhere if you remove Firefox, you rip out most of the desktopAug 31 22:50
trmancoso I'm better off using konquerer em khtmlAug 31 22:50
Chips_B_Malroywhat does Galleon use?Aug 31 22:51
DaemonFCWebkit should be the system's HTML renderer because it's so much less resource hungry and it's so much more secureAug 31 22:51
trmancoor AroraAug 31 22:51
MinceRthe system should have an HTML renderer as such?Aug 31 22:51
DaemonFCthat's if you actually *need* an HTML renderer in the desktopAug 31 22:51
MinceRif it has to, why not let the user choose?Aug 31 22:52
DaemonFCI'm still not totally sold on that, but at least KDE does it as well as can be expectedAug 31 22:52
trmancoChips_B_Malroy, is uses geckoAug 31 22:52
trmancolast time i've checkedAug 31 22:52
DaemonFCMincer: How about opening Help in whatever the user selects as their web browser?Aug 31 22:52
DaemonFCwhy not?Aug 31 22:52
MinceRor at least let the app/toolkit developer chooseAug 31 22:52
MinceRDaemonFC: that could work nicelyAug 31 22:52
MinceR(well, except that you'd have to hack in some functionality into it)Aug 31 22:53
MinceR(such as find and glossary)Aug 31 22:53
DaemonFCit removes the complications and security hazards from the desktop environmentAug 31 22:53
DaemonFClet those be handled by whoever makes the users web browserAug 31 22:53
DaemonFCfree up your guys to work on other pieces of the desktopAug 31 22:53
MinceRsometimes an HTML widget will still be neededAug 31 22:54
MinceRfor example in the forum app i started developing and then put on hiatus until i redesign itAug 31 22:54
DaemonFCwell, it still wouldn't need to be a full web rendering engine would it?Aug 31 22:54
MinceRprobably notAug 31 22:54
DaemonFCyou could make a subset with only the functions related to the Help systemAug 31 22:54
MinceRusually some limitations are even necessary (for example in an email client)Aug 31 22:54
DaemonFCright, you don't want scripting in email for obvious reasonsAug 31 22:55
DaemonFCmost clients disable that, but the engine can still do it, so it leaves a potential vulnerabilityAug 31 22:55
DaemonFCthis is why I think if it has to be done, the HTML engine in Webkit would probably be ideal, the Javascript engine is a separate component anywayAug 31 22:56
DaemonFCjust don't include that in the system's renderer?Aug 31 22:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Newspapers completely fucked sooner than you thought: down 29% in the last year!Aug 31 22:56
DaemonFCthere would be more duplication but less complexity than what they have now anyway, if it makes senseAug 31 22:57
Chips_B_MalroyI bought a sunday paper first time in about 5 years, was $2.50Aug 31 22:57
Chips_B_Malroyits no wonder they are dieingAug 31 22:58
DaemonFCyou could write an index system out of CSS and Javascript that any modern browser should understand, so I still like that optionAug 31 22:58
schestowitzYou bought a treeAug 31 22:58
schestowitzwith ads on itAug 31 22:58
MinceRa dead treeAug 31 22:58
Chips_B_Malroyyes, just for a 2 for 1 coupon for the buffetsAug 31 22:58
MinceRi bought a dead-tree based bimonthly funny paperAug 31 22:58
MinceRit was still funnyAug 31 22:58
Chips_B_MalroylolAug 31 22:58
DaemonFC$2.50 for a newspaper when loading Google News would be free and save you a trip to the vending machineAug 31 22:58
DaemonFCthat is why they are dyingAug 31 22:58
DaemonFCRupert Murdoch is now bitching that the BBC is freeAug 31 22:59
DaemonFChe's mad because he can't compete with freeAug 31 22:59
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, I tried to get the coupon online, believe meAug 31 22:59
schestowitzI bitching about Rupert Murdoch being a b*chAug 31 22:59
DaemonFCso he'll never sell the public on a paid version of his "news" servicesAug 31 22:59
cubezzz-laptopall broadcasters are 'free'Aug 31 23:00
neighborleedain I wish OURS were freeeAug 31 23:00
neighborlee;0Aug 31 23:00
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy: At least get your money's worth, open the paper machine and take the coupons out of all of themAug 31 23:00
DaemonFC:DAug 31 23:00
Chips_B_MalroyI must be the only one to like Fox newsAug 31 23:00
neighborleein here.I suspect you are LOLAug 31 23:00
Chips_B_Malroybut only because I don't trust any news outlet, and therefore listen or read most of themAug 31 23:00
DaemonFCI used to walk up, put in 50 cents and take like all the morning's copies copiesAug 31 23:01
DaemonFC:PAug 31 23:01
DaemonFCjust to be an assholeAug 31 23:01
Chips_B_Malroyits sometimes better to read both sidesAug 31 23:01
neighborleelolAug 31 23:01
DaemonFChad plenty of grocery coupons thoughAug 31 23:01
neighborleefox usually gives you the RIGHT side,,you got that right <grins>Aug 31 23:01
neighborleenot right as in opposite of wrong ;))Aug 31 23:02
DaemonFCFox usually gives you their opinions masquerading as newsAug 31 23:02
neighborleeyupAug 31 23:02
DaemonFCwith the opening weasel words "Some people say..."Aug 31 23:02
DaemonFCit's not journalism, it's PravdaAug 31 23:02
neighborleeI mean take oreilly for starters.what a wonkerAug 31 23:02
cubezzz-laptopideally journalists should be impartialAug 31 23:02
neighborleewho in their right mind thinks HE is THE NEWS ??Aug 31 23:02
DaemonFCcubezzz-laptop:  Some people say that anywayAug 31 23:02
Chips_B_Malroyneighborlee, yes, but I don't trust CNN either, they cannot even get the weather rightAug 31 23:02
neighborleeunashamed,  right wing bull pucky is wshat he isAug 31 23:02
DaemonFCneighborlee:  SOME people say he isAug 31 23:02
neighborleeI watch msnbc usuallyAug 31 23:02
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy:  According to SOME people, CNN can't be trustedAug 31 23:03
DaemonFC:)Aug 31 23:03
DaemonFCneighborlee: SOME people say that Keith Olbermann is the antichristAug 31 23:03
cubezzz-laptopI get all my news from stallman.orgAug 31 23:03
Chips_B_Malroytrust none is my mottoAug 31 23:03
cubezzz-laptopj/kAug 31 23:03
neighborleeLOLAug 31 23:03
DaemonFCthe phrase "Some people say" should be banned from TV newsAug 31 23:04
DaemonFCby lawAug 31 23:04
cubezzz-laptop"the news" is usually not that goodAug 31 23:04
Chips_B_MalroyThe only news that I relied on was from PJ until todayAug 31 23:04
neighborleewhat happened today that I missedAug 31 23:05
cubezzz-laptopWalter would disapprove of what news has becomeAug 31 23:05
DaemonFCI usually watch MSNBC though, they make fun of Republicans and I hate RepublicansAug 31 23:05
DaemonFCat least they're my kind of biasedAug 31 23:05
DaemonFC:PAug 31 23:05
neighborleelolAug 31 23:05
neighborleewell I watch itin part because of  madow ;)Aug 31 23:05
neighborleeand a few othersAug 31 23:05
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, I used to be an RepublicanAug 31 23:05
DaemonFCI agree with that quote "When the state Democratic Party finds in its wisdom to nominate a yellow dog, I will support the dog, but lower than that, you will not take me"Aug 31 23:06
DaemonFC:)Aug 31 23:06
DaemonFCthus giving rise to the phrase Yellow Dog DemocratAug 31 23:07
Chips_B_MalroyI don't have much taith in either party here to do the right thing.Aug 31 23:07
DaemonFCa Yellow Dog Democrat will support even bad candidates the Democrats nominate just to keep the Republicans outAug 31 23:07
DaemonFCthat's meAug 31 23:07
DaemonFCbelieve me, I had to hold my nose to vote for Jill Thompson/Dennis Oxley last year as the state's governor/lt governor, Mitch Daniels was much worse thoughAug 31 23:08
DaemonFCtheres hinting that he may run for president in 2012Aug 31 23:09
DaemonFCI really hope people aren't stupid enough to elect him after what his administration has done to IndianaAug 31 23:09
cubezzz-laptophow about Palin for 2012? :)Aug 31 23:09
DaemonFCOK, if it came down to Palin and Daniels, I'd rather have DanielsAug 31 23:09
MinceRdepends on which PalinAug 31 23:09
DaemonFCcause he may be a con artist, but he's not a firebrand ChristianAug 31 23:09
MinceRi fully support Michael Palin!Aug 31 23:10
cubezzz-laptopMIcheal Palin, LOLAug 31 23:10
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, Obama will win a second term unless he really screws upAug 31 23:10
DaemonFCSOME people say he already hasAug 31 23:10
DaemonFCand they want YOU to join the SOME peopleAug 31 23:10
DaemonFC:PAug 31 23:10
Chips_B_Malroysome people will always say thatAug 31 23:10
DaemonFCwell you know SOME people say the pharmaceutical industry has the right to price gougeAug 31 23:10
DaemonFC\and those would be the people organizing the "grassroots" tea partiesAug 31 23:11
Chips_B_Malroyits about hate, getting people to hate the party in power, both sides do itAug 31 23:11
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Aug 31 23:11
DaemonFCit didn't take any convincing for me to be pissed when in 2000Aug 31 23:12
Chips_B_Malroyit serves no purpose to get madAug 31 23:12
DaemonFCheh, don't get me wrong, I think we should be calling for Bush's headAug 31 23:13
DaemonFCbut it should be us that takes itAug 31 23:13
DaemonFCsaves face you know?Aug 31 23:13
Chips_B_Malroywhy?Aug 31 23:13
Chips_B_Malroywhat good would that do?Aug 31 23:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Outperforms Mac OS X 10.6 (Leopard Snort) 31 23:13
cubezzz-laptopI was surprised he got re-electedAug 31 23:13
DaemonFCmost of the people in this country were just as much victims of that administrationAug 31 23:14
*neighborlee (n=neighbor@unaffiliated/neighborlee) has joined #boycottnovellAug 31 23:14
DaemonFCby letting him go, we've set a bad precedent that we can't be trusted to punish American war criminalsAug 31 23:14
Chips_B_Malroythe swift boating got him re-elected CubezzzAug 31 23:14
DaemonFCwhile we demand the rest of the world fork over theirsAug 31 23:14
Chips_B_MalroyWell you see DaemonFC why Bush will not be tried?Aug 31 23:15
DaemonFCBush and his former cabinet continue to cash in our credibility every day they go without standing trialAug 31 23:15
Chips_B_MalroyObama and the Dems will not go there and try BushAug 31 23:16
DaemonFCless important people are arrested over petty crimes and risk losing 20 years of their life in prison every dayAug 31 23:16
Chips_B_Malroyask yourself why?Aug 31 23:16
DaemonFCwhy should we make an exception for Bush and his cabinet?Aug 31 23:16
Chips_B_Malroyits not up to usAug 31 23:16
DaemonFCthe Constitution says differentlyAug 31 23:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Top Tips for People Who Abandon Windows for GNU/Linux 31 23:16
DaemonFCit says that he should be given a fair trial by a jury of peersAug 31 23:17
DaemonFCsame as any other suspected criminalAug 31 23:17
cubezzz-laptopHas a US President ever stood trial?Aug 31 23:17
DaemonFCnoAug 31 23:17
DaemonFCdoesn't make that right thoughAug 31 23:17
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFC, while you are correct, still, its the powers that be that could take Bush to trial, not us, the public, its not going to happenAug 31 23:18
DaemonFCI also believe the US Constitution should be amended so that the president cannot pardon himself or anyone in his administrationAug 31 23:18
Chips_B_MalroySimple reason its not going to happenAug 31 23:18
DaemonFCCongress could override the vetoAug 31 23:18
DaemonFCwith a two-thirds majorityAug 31 23:18
cubezzz-laptopThe President pardoning himself definitely seems wrongAug 31 23:18
Chips_B_MalroynopeAug 31 23:18
DaemonFCGerald Ford pardoned NixonAug 31 23:19
DaemonFCright after taking officeAug 31 23:19
cubezzz-laptopand lost re-election if I remember correctlyAug 31 23:19
DaemonFCyou can't tell me that this wasn't arrangedAug 31 23:19
DaemonFCyeah, he didAug 31 23:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Awareness on GNU/Linux Raised by Gujarat Government 31 23:19
DaemonFCactually, Ford was not electedAug 31 23:20
Chips_B_Malroyyes, why I still don't like Ford too.  Even though he wasn't the worst PresAug 31 23:20
DaemonFChe was a congressman who replaced Spiro Agnew after Agnew resigned over corruption chargesAug 31 23:20
Chips_B_MalroyyesAug 31 23:20
DaemonFCthen when Nixon resigned, Ford became presidentAug 31 23:20
cubezzz-laptopFord didn't seem _that_ badAug 31 23:20
Chips_B_Malroypardoning is different than trying someone DaemonFCAug 31 23:20
DaemonFCpre-emptive pardoning is also a bad thingAug 31 23:21
DaemonFCwhich should not be allowedAug 31 23:21
cubezzz-laptopNixon worse than Bush? :)Aug 31 23:21
Chips_B_MalroyOnce you start trying former Presidents when the opposing party comes to power, where does it stop?Aug 31 23:21
Chips_B_Malroyniether party so far has done itAug 31 23:22
cubezzz-laptopyeah, the Bush era is over, time to move onAug 31 23:22
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy: So helping each other break the law without consequences is right?Aug 31 23:22
MinceRthey're all criminals anyway, aren't they?Aug 31 23:22
DaemonFCthey just watch each others backs? This is acceptable?Aug 31 23:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Zealand Post Dumped Microsoft Office, Now Tries GNU/Linux 31 23:22
Chips_B_MalroyRead the History books, Marus and Sulla ancient Rome, that is where it leads toAug 31 23:22
DaemonFCso it's that or just letting them get away with breaking whatever laws they willAug 31 23:23
DaemonFCflagrantlyAug 31 23:23
DaemonFCdoesn't sound like either is preferableAug 31 23:23
MinceRthe people should be able to drive them awayAug 31 23:24
MinceRi think that was the old ideaAug 31 23:24
Chips_B_Malroyits supposed to be a system of checks and balances, but its badly brokenAug 31 23:24
cubezzz-laptopDaemonFC, well there's the two term limit, in Canada the Prime Minister can keep goingAug 31 23:24
MinceRbut it doesn't work in practice now :/Aug 31 23:24
DaemonFCcubezzz-laptop:  Two term limit brings its own problemsAug 31 23:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Multi-booting with GNU/Linux Now Web-based Too 31 23:24
DaemonFCmeans the second term, they do whatever they want because they can't be re-elected anywayAug 31 23:25
Chips_B_Malroyask yourself this, which branch of the US gov is not owned by the corporations?Aug 31 23:25
MinceRneither?Aug 31 23:25
Chips_B_MalroyMinceR=correctAug 31 23:25
DaemonFCthe judicial system isn't as corrupt as the legislative or executiveAug 31 23:25
DaemonFCbut it's still pretty badAug 31 23:25
Chips_B_MalroywrongAug 31 23:25
Chips_B_Malroyit the easiest to corruptAug 31 23:26
MinceRit still needs to be cleansed with fireAug 31 23:26
DaemonFCthere have been federal judges that have shot down the worst parts of the PATRIOT ActAug 31 23:26
Chips_B_MalroyDOJ antitrustAug 31 23:26
DaemonFCso I believe it's still not totally corruptAug 31 23:26
MinceRm$ got out of the antitrust case proven guilty and unpunishedAug 31 23:26
cubezzz-laptopyeah, the DOJ was supposed to break up MicrosoftAug 31 23:26
MinceRso it's a complete failureAug 31 23:26
DaemonFCafter striking the worst provisions, Congress amended the Act to be more in line with the ConstitutionAug 31 23:27
DaemonFCso the judicial system still provides important oversight of the other branchesAug 31 23:27
MinceRwhen it feels like doing soAug 31 23:27
Chips_B_MalroyDaemonFc, I did not say everything was totally corrupt, only real badAug 31 23:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Loads of New Linux Features (Kernel Space) 31 23:27
MinceR(probably in the cases nobody considers important enough to throw a truckload of money at them for)Aug 31 23:28
DaemonFCChips_B_Malroy: When we start having obvious witch hunts and show trials the likes of which go on in ChinaAug 31 23:28
Chips_B_MalroyThe US gov is run by the richAug 31 23:28
DaemonFCI'll lose the rest of my faith in the systemAug 31 23:28
DaemonFCright now the justice system is the only thing that hasn't been fully corruptedAug 31 23:28
Chips_B_Malroybut then, most of these same corporations, like MS are multinationals, and also corrupt other countries as wellAug 31 23:29
MinceRindeedAug 31 23:29
MinceRand they use the US Government as a vectorAug 31 23:29
DaemonFCnotice I didn't say it's clean, I said that you're not guaranteed to lose every cause the state charges you withAug 31 23:29
MinceR(ACTA, anyone?)Aug 31 23:29
DaemonFCin China, you are always going to loseAug 31 23:29
MinceR(WCT, anyone?)Aug 31 23:29
Chips_B_MalroyMS only pretends to be a native American company when the EU slaps them around a bitAug 31 23:29
cubezzz-laptopnative American?Aug 31 23:30
Chips_B_MalroysorryAug 31 23:30
DaemonFCa native American company? as in they operate on a native American reservation?Aug 31 23:30
DaemonFC:)Aug 31 23:30
Chips_B_Malroybad choice of words thereAug 31 23:30
cubezzz-laptopno taxes on the RES :)Aug 31 23:30
Chips_B_MalroyOMG, cubezz don't tell MS that, or they will move to the ResAug 31 23:31
DaemonFClmaoAug 31 23:31
DaemonFCproviding good jobs and affordable water and eelctricity?Aug 31 23:31
DaemonFC*electricityAug 31 23:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] KMail Gets Very Nifty with More Plasma 31 23:31
DaemonFCyou should see how some of those people liveAug 31 23:31
DaemonFCthey're destituteAug 31 23:32
DaemonFCsome reservations are like miniature third world countries on the US mainland :PAug 31 23:32
cubezzz-laptopthe money doesn't trickle down, it's an old storyAug 31 23:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Chrome for GNU/Linux Ahead of Windows (in 64-bit Support) 31 23:32
DaemonFCyeah, a lot of them get tired of the shit and leaveAug 31 23:33
MinceRnah, it would make more sense for them to claim religion statusAug 31 23:33
DaemonFCthe "tribe" only exists because a few people get very rich in the business of breaking US lawsAug 31 23:33
MinceRthey have a lot of backing for that alreadyAug 31 23:33
MinceRand so could crAppleAug 31 23:33
MinceRthen they could follow in the footsteps of L. Ron HubbardAug 31 23:33
MinceR(then again, infiltrating the IRS might prove difficult for them...)Aug 31 23:33
MinceRbut perhaps they could gain tax-exempt status :>Aug 31 23:34
DaemonFCOperation Show White?Aug 31 23:34
DaemonFCis what you're referring toAug 31 23:34
MinceRSnow WhiteAug 31 23:34
MinceRcould beAug 31 23:34
DaemonFCerrrAug 31 23:34
Chips_B_MalroyRoy> I would expect Chrome for Linux to now proceed faster than the windows version, cause this is what Google needs most likely for GoogleOSAug 31 23:34
DaemonFCSnow WhiteAug 31 23:34
DaemonFCtypoAug 31 23:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Vector Linux 6.0 Light Live CD is Released 31 23:34
MinceRthey also want to attack IE ASAPAug 31 23:35
MinceRand they can do that best on winblowsAug 31 23:35
MinceRi guess we'll see what happensAug 31 23:35
DaemonFCInternet Explorer only runs on Windows nowAug 31 23:35
DaemonFC:)Aug 31 23:35
DaemonFCthe old UNIX packages still install on SolarisAug 31 23:35
MinceRi'd expect them to have separate teams at least for the platform-specific partsAug 31 23:35
DaemonFCand HP-UXAug 31 23:35
MinceRso the winblows and linux versions might not be competing for resources that muchAug 31 23:36
DaemonFCthe OS X version was only related to the Windows version of Internet Explorer in that they both had the same nameAug 31 23:36
DaemonFCthey were very different programsAug 31 23:36
MinceRi've heard they even had different rendering enginesAug 31 23:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux Distributions That Are Good for Entertainment 31 23:36
DaemonFCyeah, they didAug 31 23:36
DaemonFCTrident on Windows, Tasman on the MacAug 31 23:37
DaemonFCUNIX versions of IE had a subset of Trident, without ActiveX supportAug 31 23:37
DaemonFCTasman was actually very standards compliant for the timeAug 31 23:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] was lovely to have @laurcowen @tonywhitmore and @daviey at my place for @uupc recording.. @ciemon you were missed :(Aug 31 23:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Scientific Linux Live CD/DVD 4.8 is Released (Red Hat Clone) 31 23:37
DaemonFCthe IE For UNIX project was also how the Windows NT, 2000, and XP RTM source code leakedAug 31 23:38
DaemonFCnot all of it, just the parts that were related to porting IEAug 31 23:38
DaemonFCthe company that was contracted to do the porting "MainWin" lost a laptop with that source code on itAug 31 23:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Red Hat Targets #FogComputing and Sub-notebooks 31 23:39
DaemonFCanyhow, it didn't look like the source code would be particularly useful for writing malware based onAug 31 23:40
DaemonFCby the time it leaked, there had been so many service packs for Windows 2000 and XP past that snapshot of the code, that it was largely useless to malware writersAug 31 23:40
DaemonFCMicrosoft had already patched the obvious exploits with the latest service packs by the time the source leakedAug 31 23:41
MinceRor was it? DUN DUN DUN!Aug 31 23:41
DaemonFCthe code released involved XP RTMAug 31 23:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Sensei Dumps Windows for GNU/Linux 31 23:41
DaemonFCwhen it leaked, XP was already past SP2Aug 31 23:41
DaemonFCmost of the files the source code had leaked for had changed quite a bit by SP2Aug 31 23:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Debian Shows Its Muscle 31 23:42
DaemonFCso unless there were some unpatched RTM or maybe SP1 systems out there, the rest of the XP users were fairly safeAug 31 23:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Debian Derivative ELive Has New Release 31 23:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Advice for GNU/Linux (Ubuntu) Users Going to School 31 23:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Kubuntu GNU/Linux Installer Gets Modernised 31 23:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Samsung Confirmed to Have Linux Phones, Details Leaked 31 23:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: More astroturfersAug 31 23:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] GNU/Linux on Sub-notebooks Receives Splendid Review (from LJ) 31 23:54
DaemonFCRadian6 has indexed my complaints about ComcastAug 31 23:54
DaemonFC 31 23:55
DaemonFC 31 23:55
DaemonFC"By enhancing the richness of social media metrics atop web analytics data, brands can see the impact of social media content on their own website traffic, conversions, and sales."Aug 31 23:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Interview with Larry Augustin, Now FOSS CRM CEO 31 23:57
*neighborlee has quit ("Leaving")Aug 31 23:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] VMukti and China Mobile Learn to Do it the Free Software Way 31 23:59

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