-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "City wants software freedom for all" on software freedom day http://bit.ly/17ll3K | Sep 20 00:05 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] US #Government Moves to #Server Side for Services and Programming http://bit.ly/XuqIj | Sep 20 00:08 | |
*lis` (n=lis@pub082136122103.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 00:09 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Political #AstroTurfing at Stake as Role of Legalised Bribery ( #Lobbying ) is Debated http://bit.ly/3NkfeS | Sep 20 00:10 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #NetNeutrality to be Defended by #FCC , Claims #JuliusGenachowski http://bit.ly/3yfyZj | Sep 20 00:12 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Transforms Kids into #IntellectualMonopolies Propagandists http://techdirt.com/articles/20090917/1819256229.shtml http://bit.ly ... | Sep 20 00:16 | |
*twitter (n=willhill@97-113-230-249.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 00:19 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MAFIAA Uses #Lobbyists as "Yes Men" for #DRM http://techdirt.com/articles/20090918/0205336236.shtml | Sep 20 00:19 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Oregon Tells the #Law Only to Rich People http://techdirt.com/articles/20090918/0957096240.shtml | Sep 20 00:20 | |
yes, the Slashdot effect has become weak. People trust the summaries and have been driven off by M$ obnoxion. | Sep 20 00:22 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #PaulGraham Explains Why Old-style #Publishing Will Die http://www.paulgraham.com/publishing.html | Sep 20 00:22 | |
trmanco | http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/filters_ex4.html | Sep 20 00:28 |
trmanco | found a mirror | Sep 20 00:28 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] FFII Organises Anti-Software Patents Day http://bit.ly/3sLOEC | Sep 20 00:33 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Accused of "Thievery" in #Patent Case http://www.argosy.ca/view.php?aid=41596 | Sep 20 00:35 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Pay-to-say Firm #IDC Says #Google is Gaining at Expense of #AbusiveMonopoly http://bit.ly/1BZ1s | Sep 20 00:36 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MSDOJ Revisits #Yahoo Sellout to #Microsoft http://bit.ly/4jQjYN http://bit.ly/4yGPGj http://bit.ly/2yikGg | Sep 20 00:39 | |
good bye Beacon. http://www.pcworld.com/article/172272/facebook_will_shut_down_beacon_to_settle_lawsuit.html | Sep 20 00:40 | |
I wonder why people don't apply the same laws to M$ Windows. | Sep 20 00:41 | |
-> The lawsuit, filed in August of last year, alleged that Facebook and its Beacon affiliates like Blockbuster and Overstock.com violated a series of laws, including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, the Video Privacy Protection Act, the California Consumer Legal Remedies Act and the California Computer Crime Law. | Sep 20 00:41 | |
schestowitz | twitter: so they diffused the site with slashjections | Sep 20 00:42 |
diluted and disrupted comments, submissions and stories. I wonder if they also diluted editors. | Sep 20 00:43 | |
is this a crippled gnu/linux pad? http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/browsers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=220001055 | Sep 20 00:50 | |
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2353044,00.asp | Sep 20 00:52 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Kills #Windows #Server 2000 http://bit.ly/2hC1XT | Sep 20 00:53 | |
-> the controls are touch, but are built into the bezel of the device | Sep 20 00:53 | |
sad | Sep 20 00:53 | |
MinceR | lame | Sep 20 00:54 |
I wonder if you can get a decent distro and xstroke on it anyway. | Sep 20 00:54 | |
schestowitz | /. folks can bring over readership to Groklaw, TuxMachines, BN... | Sep 20 00:54 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits 'Independent' #MaryJoFoley and #PaulThurrott to be #Vista7 #PR Bunnies http://bit.ly/gnEEO/www/story/09-17-2009/000 ... | Sep 20 00:56 | |
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:00 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Recruits More #Shills for #Vista7 in #China, Pays HK$7,777 Per Day http://bit.ly/i356H #astroturf | Sep 20 01:00 | |
cubezzz | no arm for windows | Sep 20 01:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Paying the Pay-to-Say #Forrester 'Research' to Help Promote #Vista7 http://bit.ly/5NtrQ #astroturf #shill | Sep 20 01:02 | |
cubezzz | windows 7 anyway | Sep 20 01:02 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft is Exploiting #Children to Advertise #Vista7, Create Guilt http://bit.ly/CsDoy #abuse | Sep 20 01:03 | |
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 01:04 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Senior #Marketing Manager Explains "Tweet Assignments" http://bit.ly/39RWi7 #pr #twitter | Sep 20 01:06 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Breaks the #Law in #Korea -- Again (Found Guilty) http://bit.ly/SPdcb http://bit.ly/ATug5 http://bit.ly/2oVxLd | Sep 20 01:10 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint http://bit.ly/P8u2o | Sep 20 01:15 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz 58,000 US Bank Employees to Dump #Microsoft #Sharepoint http://bit.ly/P8u2o | Sep 20 01:16 | |
*Diablo-D3 (n=diablo@68.238.49.173) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:17 | |
zlg | isnt lotus notes proprietary ? | Sep 20 01:18 |
Diablo-D3 | yes | Sep 20 01:21 |
Diablo-D3 | but its also rather boring | Sep 20 01:22 |
zlg | yes , an dold | Sep 20 01:22 |
zlg | old* | Sep 20 01:22 |
Diablo-D3 | a lot of smart companies have switched to other things | Sep 20 01:22 |
cubezzz | just out of morbid curiousity, what's the closest linux equivalent? | Sep 20 01:42 |
Diablo-D3 | there isnt one | Sep 20 01:43 |
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.70.26) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:44 | |
*Will (i=4c724679@gateway/web/freenode/x-mbixphzvqgbqnwiw) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:47 | |
*hicham_ (n=hicham@41.248.131.76) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:47 | |
cubezzz | was it old enough to have a MS DOS client? | Sep 20 01:52 |
*_Hicham_ has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 20 01:52 | |
Diablo-D3 | poooossssibly | Sep 20 01:52 |
Diablo-D3 | check wikipedia | Sep 20 01:52 |
*hicham_ is now known as _Hicham_ | Sep 20 01:52 | |
cubezzz | yeah it did | Sep 20 01:52 |
cubezzz | firmly in the MS world I see | Sep 20 01:52 |
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to cubezzz | Sep 20 01:53 | |
cubezzz | although I see it has it's roots in Control Data's Plato learning system | Sep 20 01:53 |
*Xarver (n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 01:54 | |
cubezzz | not sure if Control Data is still around | Sep 20 01:55 |
cubezzz | they must be gone, a pity | Sep 20 02:00 |
Will | Well, MS missed the back-to-school period for Windows 7 launch. Would it be crazy to think that might be part of some plan to squeeze a little extra money out? Sell them all Vista computers, then offer Win7 upgrades for cheap a month later. | Sep 20 02:07 |
cubezzz | I think the whole windows house of cards is ready to collapse | Sep 20 02:08 |
cubezzz | we'll see :) | Sep 20 02:08 |
Will | cubezzz: i don't think it is indefinitely sustainable, but I'm wondering how slow the fall will be. | Sep 20 02:09 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 02:09 | |
Will | Probably the fall will happen at a glacial pace up to a certain point, then go the rest of the way with dizzying speed. | Sep 20 02:09 |
cubezzz | no more wintel dominance, at least I can't see it | Sep 20 02:09 |
Will | Netbooks are likely to help, especially once ARM gets properly in the game. No one saw that phenomenon coming | Sep 20 02:11 |
cubezzz | quite a while ago I talked to a guy who actually predicted windows taking over... back in 1994 I think windows 3.1 era | Sep 20 02:11 |
cubezzz | I'll like an ARM with an FPU actually | Sep 20 02:11 |
cubezzz | not sure if that exists | Sep 20 02:12 |
Will | Halloween documents. Microsoft got scared to Linux years before most people would consider it usable. | Sep 20 02:12 |
Will | Chrome is still a wild card for now. | Sep 20 02:13 |
cubezzz | well when I was talking to HP devs I saw the bad stuff coming... the dropping of support for Unix for scanners | Sep 20 02:13 |
Will | cubezzz: ? | Sep 20 02:13 |
cubezzz | back around 2000 | Sep 20 02:14 |
cubezzz | they dropped a lot of multi-OS support for things | Sep 20 02:14 |
cubezzz | when Microsoft _was not_ broken up | Sep 20 02:14 |
cubezzz | that is directly traceable to the Halloween stuff | Sep 20 02:15 |
cubezzz | 'de-commoditize protocols' I think was the term | Sep 20 02:16 |
Will | 2000 was very different from today. Linux wasn't really ready for the consumer desktop. OSX was in its infancy. At the time, Windows probably was the best and maybe only choice for most people. | Sep 20 02:16 |
cubezzz | Will, yeah I am sorry to say it took me until 2003 to break free from Microsoft | Sep 20 02:17 |
cubezzz | well, back in 1998 I tried a bunch of different ones | Sep 20 02:18 |
cubezzz | Minix, Linux, BeOS... | Sep 20 02:18 |
cubezzz | I had dropped Amiga by that time... no more Commodore dealers, no nothing | Sep 20 02:19 |
Will | cubezzz: I didn't even know what Linux was in 2000. I didn't start using it at all until 2004, and I didn't switch over to it as my primary OS until 2-3 years ago. | Sep 20 02:20 |
Will | but when I look at Linux circa 2004 and the 2009 releases, it might as well be a completely different operating system in terms of how much it has grown and matured. | Sep 20 02:21 |
cubezzz | ok, I tried Darkstar Linux 0.94 and I can't remember exactly when that was, but it was before 1998 | Sep 20 02:22 |
cubezzz | I should have switched over faster but I had some trouble with cdrom drivers | Sep 20 02:22 |
cubezzz | especially since I had used SCO Unix System V at work, I had some *nix experience | Sep 20 02:23 |
Will | What impresses me about most open source stuff is that it is always maturing. Often at a fast rate, sometimes at a slow rate, but always moving forward. There are occasional events like the KDE4 transition where it takes one step backwards to soon after take two steps forwards, but I've never seen the kind of serious regression in open source that a certain other OS has been characterized by. | Sep 20 02:23 |
cubezzz | I didn't like Unix all that much at the start, I liked AmigaDOS better | Sep 20 02:23 |
cubezzz | Will, the FOSS concept itself is the key | Sep 20 02:24 |
cubezzz | programming your own stuff is fun | Sep 20 02:24 |
cubezzz | doesn't matter if one company dies, it still survives on different hardware | Sep 20 02:25 |
cubezzz | Microsoft calls Linux a "Hydra" :) | Sep 20 02:25 |
Will | that and being guided by your own needs and the needs of your users instead of being lead around by a marketing dept. | Sep 20 02:25 |
Will | hydra is a good term for it. | Sep 20 02:26 |
zlg | at least they did not call it a cerberujs | Sep 20 02:26 |
zlg | cerberus | Sep 20 02:26 |
Will | does that make windows a chimera? | Sep 20 02:26 |
cubezzz | WIndows is what Treebeard called Saruman, all closed and shuttered | Sep 20 02:27 |
Will | cubezzz: in that context, I could argue that Windows is Sauron; Saruman would be a better fit to Novell. | Sep 20 02:28 |
cubezzz | I probably would have called IBM Sauron before | Sep 20 02:28 |
zlg | it would be more medusa | Sep 20 02:29 |
Will | zlg: it does have a tendency to turn innovation to stone. | Sep 20 02:29 |
Will | And it is often a jumbled conglomeration of things Microsoft absorbed. | Sep 20 02:30 |
zlg | so it freezes everytime you look at it LOL | Sep 20 02:30 |
cubezzz | zlg: HA | Sep 20 02:30 |
cubezzz | The comparison to the Borg is also apt | Sep 20 02:30 |
Will | zlg: funny. so, in true MS fashion, they couldn't get that right either? Medusa is supposed to freeze what _it_ looks at not the other way around. Unless you have a mirror. | Sep 20 02:31 |
zlg | when you use it, "something is going to go bad" LOL | Sep 20 02:32 |
Will | cubezzz: Slashdot loves that png of "Billcutus" | Sep 20 02:33 |
cubezzz | that makes me think of Clash of the Titans | Sep 20 02:33 |
cubezzz | I'll like to see some linux boxes in stores this fall | Sep 20 02:34 |
Will | zlg: the windows EULA is cerberus. | Sep 20 02:35 |
Will | cubezzz: for a brief time a year or so ago there were $20 boxed sets of Ubuntu on the shelves at Best Buy | Sep 20 02:36 |
Will | But they had zero marketing and where placed in a really random place on the bottom shelves. | Sep 20 02:36 |
cubezzz | well it's a tough sell | Sep 20 02:37 |
Will | i guess those didn't sell too well and were pulled. Surprise surprise. They were sitting in with the garbage bin windows software section that most big box stores have. | Sep 20 02:37 |
cubezzz | people can download ISOs and burn them for 25 cents per disc | Sep 20 02:38 |
Will | true, but the people that could benefit most from Ubuntu don't know that. | Sep 20 02:38 |
cubezzz | not to mention the Ubuntu guys were mailing them out for free :) | Sep 20 02:38 |
Will | they don't know that either | Sep 20 02:38 |
zlg | thats how I got my first linux's was from magizenes from news agents, generally around $14, RH7.0 | Sep 20 02:38 |
cubezzz | that's why I said "Linux Boxes", not Linux discs | Sep 20 02:39 |
Will | what it comes down to is that Linux needs marketing. Before it maturity and polish were more important, but that stage is nearly over. It's time for the Linux community to think about marketing. | Sep 20 02:39 |
zlg | this was basically a Box set with 2 CD's and a book on how to use RH, install ect. | Sep 20 02:40 |
zlg | it was all you needed to get up and running on linux. | Sep 20 02:40 |
cubezzz | Magazines are better than just the disc by itself certainly | Sep 20 02:40 |
zlg | I think I still have it here, I certainly still have the CD's | Sep 20 02:41 |
Will | And I know I'll get the standard "Linux was doing fine before and will do fine now". That's true. Linux will continue to grow by word of mouth. But MS and Apple aren't going to sit around and play softball. They'll do whatever they can to shut out Linux. Once Linux gets just enough market share to be somewhat commonly known about--maybe only ~20%, it will be much harder for MS and Apple to ignore standards. | Sep 20 02:41 |
Will | Look at Firefox | Sep 20 02:43 |
Will | If Linux in general gets to the point that Firefox is at now, the hardest part will be over. | Sep 20 02:43 |
_Hicham_ | Linux needs marketing | Sep 20 02:43 |
_Hicham_ | Ubuntu is a good proof | Sep 20 02:44 |
_Hicham_ | Mozilla is a good proof also | Sep 20 02:44 |
Will | Hicham: exactly | Sep 20 02:44 |
fewa | Will, agreed 100% | Sep 20 02:45 |
_Hicham_ | Canonical's ShipIt service have helped Ubuntu enormously | Sep 20 02:45 |
Will | I was using Linux prior to Ubuntu. What did Ubuntu do at a technological level that the others before it didn't? A little more polish here and there maybe, but nothing substancial. What it did different was establish a marketing presence. | Sep 20 02:45 |
fewa | Mozilla is an amazing success | Sep 20 02:45 |
_Hicham_ | I really do admire Mozilla for their marketing strategy | Sep 20 02:46 |
The people at Ubuntu might be insulted by your assessment, Will. | Sep 20 02:46 | |
no one developer really does much | Sep 20 02:46 | |
fewa | i.e. nothing substansial | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | well, it is true that Ubuntu didn't do much | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | as Debian was already there | Sep 20 02:47 |
and what does Debian do? | Sep 20 02:47 | |
fewa | i would say that most Linux and GNU/Linux improvements have been substansial | Sep 20 02:47 |
fewa | its just not how development is done | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | Debian established the distro | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | the packaging system | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | the installer | Sep 20 02:47 |
_Hicham_ | and so on | Sep 20 02:48 |
yeah, yeah. | Sep 20 02:48 | |
what do they do today? | Sep 20 02:48 | |
fewa | *have not been | Sep 20 02:48 |
fewa | damn | Sep 20 02:48 |
that's the nature of free software | Sep 20 02:48 | |
it's there for everyone to build on. | Sep 20 02:48 | |
fewa | realiable packaging | Sep 20 02:48 |
Will | Well, my apologies, but how much can I say about any distro when much of it is the result of its constituent package developers and maintainers. | Sep 20 02:48 |
zlg | ubuntu contributed more to FOSS and code or improvements, it contfributed, some consistancy, a larger and controlled organization, and marketing and promotion | Sep 20 02:48 |
fewa | you dont have to ask to improve and build upon | Sep 20 02:48 |
Will | Maybe I did misspeak there. | Sep 20 02:48 |
_Hicham_ | Shuttleworth knows the pitfalls of Linux Distros | Sep 20 02:49 |
fewa | Will, well we do have to be focused on realities | Sep 20 02:49 |
_Hicham_ | what is why he was successful | Sep 20 02:49 |
_Hicham_ | plus, his experience as an ex-Debian dev | Sep 20 02:49 |
fewa | Red Hat doesn't permit non-free drivers--which pressures hardware manufactures | Sep 20 02:49 |
fewa | they develop ALSA, PolicyKit, virt-manager | Sep 20 02:50 |
How do we measure success of a distribution? Are there links to reliable market share info? | Sep 20 02:50 | |
fewa | othe rstuff | Sep 20 02:50 |
Will | fewa -- that was one of the things I put under "more polished (the drivers) I should have put that in Ubuntu's credit. | Sep 20 02:50 |
_Hicham_ | Shuttleworth claims that Ubuntu is used by more than 8 million people | Sep 20 02:50 |
I think Debian is a great success because it continues to provide reliable, free computing. | Sep 20 02:50 | |
Will | In any case, Ubuntu and Debian are my distros of choice at the moment. | Sep 20 02:51 |
Surely there are as many Debian, Red Hat and other users. | Sep 20 02:51 | |
fewa | Will, the only thing that is more polished is allowing people to sign away their rights, and the programmers ability to change the system | Sep 20 02:51 |
8 million is not a large number. | Sep 20 02:51 | |
fewa | with non-free drivers which hold back development | Sep 20 02:51 |
Non free drivers are a big problem. | Sep 20 02:52 | |
fewa | *Im going to clarify that: polished with drivers as you mentioned | Sep 20 02:52 |
zlg | twitter it's relative, it is a huge number if it the number of steps you have to run, or seconds to hold your breath | Sep 20 02:52 |
Will | fewa -- I know. One day, I hope open drivers will be the norm. For now, a bit of pragmatism might be needed. If no one uses Linux, there won't be enough pressure on manufacturers to open their drivers. | Sep 20 02:52 |
_Hicham_ | Mandriva One have more non-free stuff | Sep 20 02:52 |
fewa | *not with respect to whole system, to which I don't really know | Sep 20 02:52 |
fewa | Will, yes, i'm not saying that ubuntu is not good | Sep 20 02:53 |
fewa | but allowing people to use non-free drivers which hold back development is not a real improvement | Sep 20 02:53 |
fewa | very clearly not a real improvement | Sep 20 02:53 |
fewa | but yes, getting people to use Linux is important | Sep 20 02:53 |
_Hicham_ | I don't use proprietary drivers for the moment | Sep 20 02:53 |
Will | fewa: probably 90% of computer users out there have no idea what you just said. | Sep 20 02:54 |
zlg | people should be FREE to use whatever they like in a distro, if they need closed drivers, and they dont mind, its up to the users. | Sep 20 02:54 |
Non free drivers are detrimental to everyone, users, developers and distros. | Sep 20 02:54 | |
fewa | bus as RMS said, even if you get everyone to use free software, if they don't understand freedom that platform will become non-free | Sep 20 02:54 |
users have a hard time upgrading. | Sep 20 02:54 | |
fewa | they will be all to ready to hand it away | Sep 20 02:54 |
fewa | Will, non-free drivers create the bad experiences that plague Windows | Sep 20 02:54 |
fewa | we do not want to replocate that | Sep 20 02:54 |
Will | fewa -- as an Nvidia card owner, I know first hand... and I want my plymouth. | Sep 20 02:55 |
M$ and other companies can screw distros around for their drivers. This hurt distros and the users who are forced to hop from one distro d'jour to the next. | Sep 20 02:55 | |
fewa | free software drivers are not just a thing of lofty idealists, there is firm pragmatism in it | Sep 20 02:55 |
Yes, non free drivers are flaky | Sep 20 02:55 | |
fewa | twitter, and they hold back development by forcing the continuation of legacy interfaces | Sep 20 02:55 |
fewa | which cant be changed | Sep 20 02:56 |
fewa | That why Windows is such a POS | Sep 20 02:56 |
fewa | among other reasons, but that is one of the main ones | Sep 20 02:56 |
yes, it's obvious that development for non free software is second rate. | Sep 20 02:56 | |
fewa | Its not just freedom, its also critical in making a quality product | Sep 20 02:56 |
Will | twitter: agreed | Sep 20 02:56 |
it creates a lot of work. | Sep 20 02:56 | |
_Hicham_ | nvidia driver have been reverse engineered | Sep 20 02:56 |
fewa | so Will's view is short-sided | Sep 20 02:56 |
_Hicham_ | which is wasting a lot of time | Sep 20 02:56 |
API documentation is a waste of effort. | Sep 20 02:56 | |
Will | fewa: the then is as you said: How do we get people to understand and care about software freedom? | Sep 20 02:57 |
it's easy. You get them to use free software. | Sep 20 02:57 | |
fewa | Will, by showing the difference it can make in the quality | Sep 20 02:57 |
fewa | ^^^^^^ | Sep 20 02:57 |
zlg | If you reverse engineer a "flaky, and POS" proprietary driver, how is it possible for your reverse engineered version to have the same !functionaloity, and be equally "flaky" | Sep 20 02:57 |
It does not take long for people to realize that free software is better. | Sep 20 02:57 | |
fewa | what twitter said | Sep 20 02:57 |
It takes less work to use and keep. | Sep 20 02:57 | |
cubezzz | I got tossed from the Linux counter | Sep 20 02:57 |
fewa | zlg, you can fix the bugs in the new version | Sep 20 02:57 |
fewa | zlg, this has happened many times in computer history | Sep 20 02:58 |
bbl | Sep 20 02:58 | |
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 02:58 | |
zlg | You reverse engineer functionaly, generally, not code. but I guess, Reverse engeering sounds like another form of stealing someone elses code IMHO. | Sep 20 02:58 |
Will | fewa: Maybe I've just talked to the wrong people, but it seems like there are plenty out there that just don't get it, won't get it, don't care about getting it. | Sep 20 02:59 |
fewa | zlg, you are a troll, go away | Sep 20 02:59 |
zlg | why,? because I said something that you dont agree with ?? wow | Sep 20 02:59 |
fewa | Will, then they are at the mercy of those who get it | Sep 20 02:59 |
fewa | zlg, no, you have been in this channel a long time | Sep 20 03:00 |
zlg | your poinkt is? | Sep 20 03:00 |
fewa | and you have the exact same behavior as _Mutex_ | Sep 20 03:00 |
zlg | I think you've been here quite awiletoo | Sep 20 03:00 |
ThistleWeb | there are many ways to code function, stealing code would be doing it the way they have | Sep 20 03:00 |
_Hicham_ | we should boycott proprietary drivers | Sep 20 03:00 |
_Hicham_ | personally, I won't buy a laptop that doesn't have an Intel graphic chipset | Sep 20 03:01 |
_Hicham_ | because Intel graphic chipset do have open source drivers | Sep 20 03:01 |
zlg | Fewa, ok ill trynot to upset your delicate sensibilities by not saying anything you do not agree with. ok ? | Sep 20 03:01 |
Will | That's part of where my "short-sighted" idea came from. But what you just said sums up something I get now. Some people get discombobulated if you so much as rearrange their desktop icons. I thought if I present Linux in a more familiar fashion, maybe they will accept it and grow in time. I think some have. But would they in general? | Sep 20 03:01 |
ThistleWeb | oh, and getting people to use free software does nothing to help them understand and care about free software | Sep 20 03:01 |
ThistleWeb | people use firefox because it's the best, many dont know or care that it's FOSS | Sep 20 03:02 |
fewa | zlg, Dowling v. United States (1985 - supreme court) "interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ..." | Sep 20 03:02 |
_Hicham_ | ThistleWeb : we don't need to give the FOSS argument to people | Sep 20 03:02 |
zlg | fewa, so ? | Sep 20 03:03 |
ThistleWeb | I know, I'm pointing out that "getting people to use it" is not the answer to "how do we get people to care about it" | Sep 20 03:03 |
_Hicham_ | Mozilla have used a lot of arguments to convince people | Sep 20 03:03 |
ThistleWeb | Mozilla also happen to make VERY good products, and win on merrit | Sep 20 03:04 |
Will | Hicham, the best argument I've ever seen to get people to use Mozilla was IE. | Sep 20 03:04 |
cubezzz | Probably most academia gets it, at least computer ones | Sep 20 03:04 |
_Hicham_ | yes, as IE was a real mess | Sep 20 03:04 |
_Hicham_ | and Web Developers were also helping Mozilla | Sep 20 03:04 |
fewa | Those who need to get it the most are developers | Sep 20 03:04 |
_Hicham_ | since Firefox is more standard compliant | Sep 20 03:05 |
fewa | and by and large, they get it | Sep 20 03:05 |
Will | cubezzz: most people in any technical field of academica are very likely to have had some exposure to Linux. But a lot of them use OSX instead. | Sep 20 03:05 |
_Hicham_ | so when people watching dailymotion see a great publicity of firefox, sure they will download it | Sep 20 03:05 |
fewa | that is why Microsoft wants to create braindead button-clickers | Sep 20 03:05 |
_Hicham_ | and so on | Sep 20 03:05 |
fewa | cause if they think, they wouldn't use Microsoft software | Sep 20 03:05 |
fewa | ..create software through drag-and-drop | Sep 20 03:06 |
fewa | and a gazillion hacks | Sep 20 03:06 |
_Hicham_ | Windows source code is full of swearing and insults | Sep 20 03:07 |
fewa | and have your code by standards-breaking...completely break without cookies, have unhelpful error codes | Sep 20 03:07 |
_Hicham_ | I was really shocked when I opened the files | Sep 20 03:07 |
_Hicham_ | almost every comment is combined with a swearing or insult or sthg | Sep 20 03:07 |
Will | Well 7 is on its way. If it turns out to be a mess, then like Vista before it, it should be a great advertisement for open source. But if it turns out to be even merely passable, then what? | Sep 20 03:07 |
fewa | _Hicham_, your tainted | Sep 20 03:07 |
fewa | Will, how can it? | Sep 20 03:08 |
_Hicham_ | fewa : ? | Sep 20 03:08 |
fewa | Will, every CIO out there has already said they would touch it | Sep 20 03:08 |
Will | good then | Sep 20 03:08 |
fewa | Its just Vista SP2.1 | Sep 20 03:08 |
Will | maybe the frog finally got hot enough to get uncomfortable | Sep 20 03:08 |
_Hicham_ | Microsoft is freaking out | Sep 20 03:09 |
Diablo-D3 | about what? | Sep 20 03:09 |
fewa | _Hicham_, there is a tainted theory o copyright | Sep 20 03:09 |
fewa | _Hicham_, its the reason for clean-room engineering | Sep 20 03:09 |
zlg | "if" vista was a failure, it did not seem to displace MS for FOSS, So I would not expect it to happen with Win7. | Sep 20 03:09 |
_Hicham_ | fewa : I got the code through piratebay, it is still there i think | Sep 20 03:09 |
fewa | if youve seen the Windows source code you are tainted from writing free software OS code | Sep 20 03:10 |
fewa | ..according to the theory | Sep 20 03:10 |
_Hicham_ | fewa : haha, but I didn't like the code | Sep 20 03:10 |
_Hicham_ | it is a set of hacks | Sep 20 03:10 |
fewa | see, you saw it | Sep 20 03:11 |
_Hicham_ | of course | Sep 20 03:11 |
zlg | Just ready the code does not automatically assign a NDA on you. | Sep 20 03:11 |
Will | zlg: vista didn't collapse the dam, but it did make some large cracks in it. | Sep 20 03:11 |
fewa | that creates legal uncertainty | Sep 20 03:11 |
fewa | zlg, that is 100% besides the point | Sep 20 03:11 |
ThistleWeb | zlg: windows is one of the 2 flagship products MS has, their entire empire relies on both windows and office being adopted en masse by everyone | Sep 20 03:11 |
fewa | and you know it | Sep 20 03:11 |
_Hicham_ | fewa : that is what mono developers say | Sep 20 03:11 |
ThistleWeb | they can usually rely on that income, and spend it in advance | Sep 20 03:11 |
fewa | _Hicham_, about what code? | Sep 20 03:12 |
ThistleWeb | vista was very late, and it bombed | Sep 20 03:12 |
ThistleWeb | they cant afford it to happen to the same flagship product TWICE in a row | Sep 20 03:12 |
_Hicham_ | fewa : mono developers say u can't contribute if u seen .NET code | Sep 20 03:12 |
zlg | it does not "have to" nor is it adopted en masse | Sep 20 03:12 |
fewa | _Hicham_, this theory was not held in the BSD freedom/rewrite suit | Sep 20 03:12 |
ThistleWeb | they need windows 7 to be accpeted | Sep 20 03:12 |
ThistleWeb | they need retailers to only offer that, so that customers have no choice | Sep 20 03:12 |
fewa | or perhaps it wasnt brought up.... | Sep 20 03:12 |
Will | Windows and Office together fund the rest of the company's ventures, most of which tend to lose money left and right. | Sep 20 03:13 |
ThistleWeb | they need corps to upgrade and pay huge sums of cash for no new benefits | Sep 20 03:13 |
ThistleWeb | they're already reeling after peeps refused vista | Sep 20 03:13 |
_Hicham_ | Office is threatened by OpenOffice | Sep 20 03:13 |
_Hicham_ | OpenOffice is a real threat | Sep 20 03:13 |
ThistleWeb | thanks to vista, more and more peeps have been alerted to having a choice | Sep 20 03:14 |
Will | Vista open corps eyes though. | Sep 20 03:14 |
fewa | to alternatives... quick! | Sep 20 03:14 |
ThistleWeb | they will not go back to blind obedience as they have done before | Sep 20 03:14 |
fewa | Bail Ship! Bail Ship! | Sep 20 03:14 |
Will | And what sometimes goes unmentioned is that Win7 doesn't have to prove itself against Vista. It has to prove itself against XP | Sep 20 03:14 |
ThistleWeb | even at normal windows prices it'll be a hard sell, specially when money is tight | Sep 20 03:15 |
fewa | Will, it's not about proof at all | Sep 20 03:15 |
Will | Even corps that are still on Windows have decided that they are comfortable on XP for now. | Sep 20 03:15 |
fewa | its about being useful to developers | Sep 20 03:15 |
zlg | thats the trouble, MS's main rival is none other than MS | Sep 20 03:15 |
ThistleWeb | not to mention the fact that it'll have to try and recoup some of the income they expected to get with vista | Sep 20 03:15 |
fewa | which it clearly is not http://www.pretentiousname.com/misc/win7_uac_whitelist2.html | Sep 20 03:15 |
ThistleWeb | if thats not enough of a problem for them, PC's are MUCH cheaper now, so a $200 OS tax onto the price is VERY noticable | Sep 20 03:16 |
fewa | Microsoft will not manage to get win32 beyond NT 5.1 (XP) | Sep 20 03:16 |
fewa | And they cant just keep adding anti-features and raising prices | Sep 20 03:16 |
ThistleWeb | and peeps have netbooks where either Linux is free, or XP is peanuts to compete | Sep 20 03:16 |
Will | fewa: what I mean is that a lot of companies want to stick with XP for now. Sooner or later, hardware replacement or lack of support will force them to move away from XP. So, the question to each of them is, will they move to 7 then, or will they migrate to an alternative instead. | Sep 20 03:17 |
ThistleWeb | for me, 2009 was the begining of the end for MS | Sep 20 03:17 |
fewa | Will, they will move to Linux or XP on Linux virt hosts | Sep 20 03:17 |
ThistleWeb | they're being assailed on all fronts, in most cases offering better products or services for free or cheaper, and the market ha bombed so peeps are forced to think about price | Sep 20 03:17 |
fewa | cause the Windows virtualization is laughable | Sep 20 03:18 |
ThistleWeb | their model is broken | Sep 20 03:18 |
ThistleWeb | the difference is that now a lot of competition has matured enough that it can't be dismissed | Sep 20 03:18 |
zlg | I wish I had a dollar for everytime I hear MS is coming to an end | Sep 20 03:19 |
fewa | Who wants their server will all those virtualization guests to have a remote registry? a allways-on GUI? the record for remotely-exploitable security holes? | Sep 20 03:19 |
ThistleWeb | MS will be a patent troll parasite business in maybe 10yrs | Sep 20 03:19 |
fewa | And even better: Windows has woorse hardware support than Linux | Sep 20 03:19 |
Will | Here's a question I'd like to hear a softie answer: Assuming XP compatibility is a necessity, what is the advantage to using Win7 and XP mode over using Linux and XP in a VM? | Sep 20 03:19 |
fewa | esp on high-end hardware | Sep 20 03:19 |
fewa | Will, absolutely none | Sep 20 03:20 |
ThistleWeb | with a virtual XP you can delete it, and replace it when it gets hosed | Sep 20 03:20 |
Will | fewa: that's why I'd like to hear a softie answer it. | Sep 20 03:20 |
ThistleWeb | not to mention the host OS will be safer | Sep 20 03:20 |
fewa | :P | Sep 20 03:20 |
zlg | ive not found that XP compatibility is necessary, for anything. | Sep 20 03:20 |
fewa | I do keep blowing you leads.... | Sep 20 03:20 |
ThistleWeb | with windows 7 and a virtual xp, you have 2 malware magnets to try and protect | Sep 20 03:20 |
fewa | zlg, have you tried running cromium? | Sep 20 03:21 |
zlg | no, why would I | Sep 20 03:21 |
fewa | such a high-profile application will surely run! | Sep 20 03:21 |
Will | fewa ;) | Sep 20 03:21 |
fewa | (i think they made it work now, but I will assure you it did not work before) | Sep 20 03:22 |
Will | zlg: Vista, the economy situation, and netbook changed things a bit. | Sep 20 03:22 |
fewa | and that because Windows uses undocumented features for its internal applications | Sep 20 03:23 |
Will | zlg: home users might not need XP compatibility, but you never know about what kind of in-house software a company might need that may or may not work well on Vista/7 | Sep 20 03:23 |
zlg | ive got a huge library of programs ive used with xp for some time, all of them work just as well on vista and win7. ive not found one that does not yet, not saying there are not any. | Sep 20 03:24 |
zlg | Will, yes true | Sep 20 03:24 |
fewa | Thats why chromium was incompatible: because of the anti-competitive actions of Microsoft | Sep 20 03:24 |
fewa | chromium ~= Google Chrome | Sep 20 03:24 |
fewa | in using undocumented features | Sep 20 03:24 |
ThistleWeb | before the economy crashed, many corps would just rubber stamp a new round of windows licences, which MS relied on. Now they have to put upgrades on hold, look for other options, and demand a much higher ROI | Sep 20 03:25 |
fewa | zlg, can you run IE6 natively in Windows 7? | Sep 20 03:25 |
zlg | again, why would I want too, can you run the latest OO.org on 2.2.15 kernel ? | Sep 20 03:25 |
ThistleWeb | MS have spent a fortune in getting windows 7 out, because they had no choice, but it won't save them | Sep 20 03:25 |
fewa | Microsoft's ActiveX lock-in seems so successful that even microsoft cant make another application that is compatible with it | Sep 20 03:25 |
Will | fewa -- thanks for reminding me about that ............. grr. IE6 sites. 'Nuff said. | Sep 20 03:26 |
fewa | Will, mainly activeX im experiences | Sep 20 03:26 |
fewa | not really the HTML | Sep 20 03:26 |
Will | Does IE even support png yet? | Sep 20 03:26 |
fewa | so thats not even the browser | Sep 20 03:26 |
_Hicham_ | yes, since IE7 | Sep 20 03:27 |
fewa | Will, yes, but only correctly in IE8 | Sep 20 03:27 |
Will | That alone was enough to turn me against IE when I had to code a website one time. | Sep 20 03:27 |
ThistleWeb | dont think it does transparent png tho | Sep 20 03:27 |
fewa | and IE8 does not support <video> <audio> or <canvas> | Sep 20 03:27 |
fewa | IMHO making it obsolete before it was ever released | Sep 20 03:27 |
_Hicham_ | in IE6, u had to get transparency with an alpha channel from microsoft | Sep 20 03:27 |
Will | ThistleWeb: transparency was exactly what I needed then. | Sep 20 03:27 |
zlg | complaining about old versions of software tells me, you have little to complain about of the newer versions ? | Sep 20 03:27 |
fewa | <zlg> again, why would I want too, can you run the latest OO.org on 2.2.15 kernel ? | Sep 20 03:28 |
fewa | This is backwards | Sep 20 03:28 |
Will | zlg: I don't use them. | Sep 20 03:28 |
fewa | I can run the very first OO.org on a 2.6.30 kernel | Sep 20 03:28 |
Will | And I don't do as much web dev these days. | Sep 20 03:28 |
zlg | I could sit here and pick holes on RH7.0 too but whats the point ? | Sep 20 03:28 |
fewa | zlg, problem is that people still use XP | Sep 20 03:28 |
cubezzz | for the record I thought windows 2.0 was slow :) | Sep 20 03:29 |
fewa | and Microsoft hasn't been able to give people a reason to change that | Sep 20 03:29 |
zlg | fewa, and why is that a problem, do you use i t? | Sep 20 03:29 |
fewa | nor have they been able to maintain compatibility with XP | Sep 20 03:29 |
fewa | so attack the age of RH7.0 is besides the point | Sep 20 03:30 |
ThistleWeb | there's always a reason to upgrade to the newer OS or software package, the problem MS have is that you have to give people like $300 of reasons to upgrade windows and office | Sep 20 03:30 |
fewa | also: I know people that still run RH8.0 and it works great | Sep 20 03:30 |
Will | zlg: The point is it would be nice if MS would stop using its large market share to hold back technologies. If there are 5 products in a space, and all of them have supported a feature, filetype, etc. for years, except Microsoft's product, which still doesn't, then that can hold back the other four. | Sep 20 03:30 |
fewa | over a year uptime | Sep 20 03:30 |
fewa | and only taken down to clear around it | Sep 20 03:30 |
ThistleWeb | that's where FOSS shines, as often the "just upgrade to the new version" is a free download | Sep 20 03:30 |
ThistleWeb | compared to "pay more money" | Sep 20 03:30 |
ThistleWeb | so there's no reason not to upgrade with FOSS | Sep 20 03:31 |
fewa | ThistleWeb, modern propritary software has changed models | Sep 20 03:31 |
fewa | expect for those holding onto dough like MS | Sep 20 03:31 |
fewa | think walled gardens like iTunes/iPod/iPhone/iMsick | Sep 20 03:31 |
ThistleWeb | it's not "is it better", it's "is it $300 better" | Sep 20 03:32 |
cubezzz | it's not $300 better :) | Sep 20 03:32 |
fewa | where they upgrade every week/month to lock out applications that interoperate | Sep 20 03:32 |
ThistleWeb | yeah Apple do like doing that | Sep 20 03:32 |
fewa | and the user doesn't even see a difference, its essentially a anti-virus upgrade where the user is the virus | Sep 20 03:32 |
cubezzz | does the price always go up for windows? | Sep 20 03:33 |
Will | Palm Pre says hi | Sep 20 03:33 |
fewa | and the user doing what he/she wants is the malicious behavior | Sep 20 03:33 |
fewa | *what he/she wants with the device he/she purchaced | Sep 20 03:33 |
Will | The ipod might have been awesome a few years ago compared to the rest, but IMO, these days the standard ipod (not touch) is a sheer rip-off compared to what else can be had for cheaper. | Sep 20 03:34 |
ThistleWeb | that's because Apple have their own workflow set out, which ensures the customer is in their revenue stream at all times. Users who step outside that flow by wanting things their own way need to be "educated" | Sep 20 03:34 |
cubezzz | around $200 for windows 7 in U.S. dollars | Sep 20 03:34 |
fewa | ThistleWeb, pretty accurace picture | Sep 20 03:34 |
fewa | *accurate | Sep 20 03:34 |
fewa | Apple is always at war with Microsoft | Sep 20 03:35 |
fewa | Apple is always at war with Microsoft | Sep 20 03:35 |
fewa | :P | Sep 20 03:35 |
ThistleWeb | many people learn to love the apple workflow, and buy into the lifestyle, so they dont see the barriers | Sep 20 03:35 |
Will | fewa: except when they unite against Linux | Sep 20 03:35 |
fewa | (even though they are very much aligned on their love of DRM) | Sep 20 03:35 |
ThistleWeb | when they do that, they choose to buy apple stuff, which all works seamlessly with other apple stuff | Sep 20 03:35 |
fewa | funny thing is that Apple is UNIX and used alot of GPL GNU utils | Sep 20 03:36 |
fewa | *uses | Sep 20 03:36 |
zlg | all groups and orgaisationshave "workflow" and reneducation, even foss | Sep 20 03:36 |
ThistleWeb | cubezzz: the windows price is one of these "how long is a piece of string" things | Sep 20 03:36 |
fewa | zlg, one is free association, the other coercion and frivolous lawsuits | Sep 20 03:36 |
Will | fewa: yeah, but you'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get some of the GNU stuff on OSX and well integrated. | Sep 20 03:37 |
ThistleWeb | it'll vary from edition, region and licence | Sep 20 03:37 |
Will | fewa: You'd think fink and macports would help. And you'd be right... sometimes. | Sep 20 03:37 |
ThistleWeb | many users will be volume licences, which is agreed under an NDA, so nobody outside of the meetings know | Sep 20 03:37 |
fewa | Will, OS X takes extensively from FreeBSD | Sep 20 03:37 |
zlg | fewa there is no "one and 'the other', they all do it all groups. | Sep 20 03:37 |
ThistleWeb | even home users dont know how much say Wallmart pay per pc | Sep 20 03:38 |
zlg | it's called their adgender | Sep 20 03:38 |
ThistleWeb | all they know is the price they pay at the till | Sep 20 03:38 |
ThistleWeb | for the PC including windows | Sep 20 03:38 |
Will | ThistleWeb: it boggles the mind why there hasn't been a law in most countries to unbundle the OS from the PC. Make them separate purchases. I think France has that. | Sep 20 03:38 |
zlg | most business do not make their markup public. | Sep 20 03:39 |
ThistleWeb | MS have powerful lobbyists to tell politicians peeps will buy it and install pirated windows | Sep 20 03:39 |
ThistleWeb | so the status quo is an anti-piracy thing | Sep 20 03:39 |
_Hicham_ | you can't buy an OSless laptop | Sep 20 03:39 |
ThistleWeb | it's bullshit, but thats the reasoning | Sep 20 03:39 |
_Hicham_ | no laptop is delivered without OS | Sep 20 03:40 |
zlg | I can here, in Aus. I can also buy the basic components of a laptop and build it myself. | Sep 20 03:40 |
fewa | zlg, is it right to sue someone just cause they share people can sync their iPod with other programs? http://www.eff.org/cases/odioworks-v-apple | Sep 20 03:40 |
zlg | I can buy "driveless" Lt's everywhere | Sep 20 03:40 |
ThistleWeb | any machine you build can be OS's less, the HD is just a blank HS until YOU install an OS on it | Sep 20 03:40 |
fewa | Will, I was alluding to _1984_ if you didn't notice | Sep 20 03:40 |
ThistleWeb | thats different from buying a pre-built laptop | Sep 20 03:41 |
zlg | fewa, it's someone's right to sue if they feel the other party is breaking the law, it's everyones right | Sep 20 03:41 |
zlg | even yours | Sep 20 03:41 |
ThistleWeb | there;s breaking the law, and breaing the eula, which may or may not be legal | Sep 20 03:41 |
fewa | zlg, but is it not wrong to claim copyright over sharing ways to sync their iPod with other programs? | Sep 20 03:42 |
ThistleWeb | even then, the big corps rely on being the big guy, and the lil guy cant afford to fight it, even if they're in the right | Sep 20 03:42 |
fewa | zlg, to claim that those people can no longer publish those findings? | Sep 20 03:42 |
fewa | zlg, that they have to censor themselves from helping out their fellow man? | Sep 20 03:42 |
zlg | I dont know who has copyright of what with ipods, so I dont know, nor do I care. | Sep 20 03:42 |
ThistleWeb | scaring the lil guy with a potentially business destroying legal bill | Sep 20 03:42 |
Will | fewa: Somehow I still haven't gotten around to reading that. Don't ask why. I don't know either. | Sep 20 03:42 |
fewa | or else they will be sued into the ground | Sep 20 03:43 |
zlg | but you have a right to sue if you feel you've been agreived | Sep 20 03:43 |
fewa | That sounds like a prior restraint on speech if you ask me. | Sep 20 03:43 |
ThistleWeb | when you throw your weight around enough, and people bend to your will, you get used to it, and expect it to happen every time | Sep 20 03:43 |
Will | ThistleWeb: I had a Dell phone sales rep grill me one time when I asked for a Windows refund prior to buying. He asked me what OS I was going to use instead. Guy had never heard of Debian, Ubuntu, or Red Hat, Was absolutely convinced that I was trying to pirate an OS. | Sep 20 03:43 |
Will | This was before Dell offered Ubuntu. | Sep 20 03:44 |
ThistleWeb | small coprs who say "no" tend to be like the lil nail sticking out of the wood, they get hammered | Sep 20 03:44 |
fewa | Will, just another example of Apple asserting that the DMCA gives them unlimited right to erect a walled garden and shoot intruders | Sep 20 03:44 |
fewa | ...intruders that will ever take a seed from their garden | Sep 20 03:44 |
zlg | fewa it's certainly not a restraint on your legal rights. | Sep 20 03:44 |
fewa | zlg, its an attempt to impose restrictions on free speech | Sep 20 03:45 |
fewa | restricted before that person has said anything | Sep 20 03:45 |
zlg | why ? by allowing you to sue if you feel you need to, ? | Sep 20 03:45 |
zlg | fewa, explain how that works ? | Sep 20 03:45 |
fewa | zlg, by claiming that saying something is a copyright infringement | Sep 20 03:45 |
fewa | zlg, you need to read the events of the case | Sep 20 03:46 |
fewa | "Late last year, after BluWiki users began a discussion about making some Apple iPods and iPhones interoperate with software other than Apple’s own iTunes, Apple lawyers demanded removal of the content. In a letter to OdioWorks, the attorneys alleged that the discussions constituted copyright infringement and a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act’s (DMCA's) prohibition on circumventing copy protection measures. Fearing legal action | Sep 20 03:46 |
fewa | by Apple, OdioWorks took down the discussions from the Bluwiki site. " | Sep 20 03:46 |
zlg | are you saying, someone is being sued for "saying something is a copyright" ? | Sep 20 03:46 |
fewa | zlg, Apple demanded that original discussion be taken down from a website. | Sep 20 03:47 |
fewa | citing copyright, but there was nothing that apple produced on the entire site | Sep 20 03:47 |
zlg | and what was the outcome of the court case ? | Sep 20 03:48 |
fewa | Apple claimed that free speech was "a effective circumvention technique of digital restrictions management" | Sep 20 03:48 |
Will | fewa: well, that is kinda true... | Sep 20 03:49 |
fewa | Will, no its not | Sep 20 03:49 |
fewa | cause Apple had no copyright interest in the meta database of songs | Sep 20 03:49 |
fewa | and the hash value contained in it | Sep 20 03:49 |
*Will was being facetious | Sep 20 03:50 | |
fewa | that was the product of the user, and was random from the songs the user had on the device | Sep 20 03:50 |
*fewa takes people too seriously | Sep 20 03:50 | |
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 20 03:50 | |
Will | because free speech does tend to overthrow arbitrary restrictions. | Sep 20 03:51 |
fewa | this whole case and circumstance raises some public policy questions | Sep 20 03:51 |
fewa | should it be illegal to report the results of research you have done on devices you own? | Sep 20 03:52 |
Will | You can't just use the DMCA as a wide spectrum gag to silence anything you don't like being said. | Sep 20 03:52 |
ThistleWeb | fewa: here we get to the heart of it, you dont own them, you only licence them. They are however "sold" which is wrong | Sep 20 03:53 |
fewa | Will, well a fascial take of the DMCA does leave real restrictions | Sep 20 03:53 |
ThistleWeb | IMO anything that the makers assert any conditions of use over means they still own it | Sep 20 03:53 |
zlg | it's not "sold" it's licensed | Sep 20 03:54 |
fewa | zlg, AutoCAD v Vernor | Sep 20 03:54 |
fewa | and the _many_ cases that case cites | Sep 20 03:54 |
ThistleWeb | which means that Apple stores etc should not be allowed to list things "for sale" | Sep 20 03:54 |
fewa | some involving Microsoft even | Sep 20 03:54 |
fewa | *AutoDesk v Vernor | Sep 20 03:54 |
fewa | But in this case Apple had absolutely no copyright interest | Sep 20 03:55 |
ThistleWeb | music / video stores that sell region coded DVDs (which they all are, excpet the porn industry, porn is all region 0, playable anywhere) etc should not be allowed to class it as a sale | Sep 20 03:55 |
fewa | and was trying to protect a manufactured monopoly on players that work with its media player | Sep 20 03:56 |
fewa | ThistleWeb, because it does not fallow the first sale doctrine | Sep 20 03:56 |
fewa | Actually, I think they can, and fallowing the first sale doctrine | Sep 20 03:56 |
fewa | but there needs to be a clear disclaimer on the Cover of the case that states the limitations of the medium | Sep 20 03:57 |
Will | fewa: I don't know about this case, so I'm not talking about it specifically. I'm just saying that, in a situation where there is no legit copyright claim on what is being said, the DMCA shouldn't be used to take something down. "I don't like that" doesn't qualify as a copywrite claim. | Sep 20 03:57 |
fewa | as the Obama --> Gorden Brown incidence prooves abundentally clear, consumers are not made aware of the restriction on the products they buy, they are instead mislead and defrauded | Sep 20 03:58 |
fewa | Will, absolutely, a copyright claim is essential to make a DMCA anti-circumcision claim | Sep 20 03:58 |
zlg | most if not all consumers understand that there are restrictions of use on all their products they buy. | Sep 20 03:59 |
fewa | I was also pointing out that in many cases enforcement of the DMCA anti-circumcision provisions would be violations of free speech, and the government enforcement of monopolies | Sep 20 03:59 |
fewa | Monopolies of trade, in addition to the monopolies of copyright | Sep 20 03:59 |
fewa | zlg, no, most users have no idea | Sep 20 04:00 |
fewa | when a DVD doesn't work in another country they just assume its broken | Sep 20 04:00 |
zlg | fewa, no, most used have every idea, just because you say it does not make it true. | Sep 20 04:00 |
zlg | you buy a car, yo uknow you are not allowed to speed, or drive on the wrong side of the road. | Sep 20 04:00 |
zlg | you know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it. | Sep 20 04:01 |
fewa | zlg, thats obviously totally wrong | Sep 20 04:01 |
zlg | you have to comply with the rules of the land, everyone knows that | Sep 20 04:01 |
*lis` has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 04:01 | |
fewa | and that conflation is completely misrepresentative | Sep 20 04:01 |
zlg | fewa, again, just because you say it, does not make it gospell | Sep 20 04:02 |
fewa | zlg, what wrong did blu-wiki do by discussing how to use another program to sync a iPod | Sep 20 04:02 |
fewa | ???? | Sep 20 04:02 |
fewa | answer that | Sep 20 04:02 |
fewa | Who could that action hurt? | Sep 20 04:02 |
zlg | WTF, who cares, I dont even know what your talkihn about, im not sure you do either. please, be a little less abstract | Sep 20 04:02 |
fewa | zlg, you made the argument that changes to a vehicle that could cause a crash should be compared to figuring out how to sync a iPod with a program that is not iTunes | Sep 20 04:03 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @fish_pond Life after #secularism -- By Nizar Ahmed http://bit.ly/f5smg | Sep 20 04:03 | |
fewa | the difference is that noone can get injured in publishing information on how to sync a iPod with an alternative media program | Sep 20 04:04 |
zlg | um, fewa, no I did not, I said consumers are generally aware of the restrictions on the products they buy. | Sep 20 04:04 |
fewa | <zlg> you know you are not allowed to remove the breaks, or drop a supercharger on it. | Sep 20 04:04 |
zlg | and you fire off about dlue wicki and iPods, WTF, ? | Sep 20 04:05 |
fewa | zlg, because that is the exact comparison you are making | Sep 20 04:05 |
zlg | yes, thats right, you are not allowed to do that, and maintain the care legally on the road. | Sep 20 04:05 |
Will | Easy way out is just don't buy an ipod or use itunes. | Sep 20 04:06 |
zlg | sure you can do what you like and bash around your backyard, but to comply with the law, to LEGALLY use your car for it's intended purpose you cannot _CANNOT_ do such modifications | Sep 20 04:06 |
fewa | you think that breaking the DMCA by publishing information on how to use differn't programs, or make a DVD work on another operating system, is somehow comparable to doing dangerous alterations to an automobile | Sep 20 04:06 |
Will | automotive laws are there to keep motorists safe. This has nothing to do with safety | Sep 20 04:07 |
fewa | But this is simply not true | Sep 20 04:07 |
zlg | you can buy a knife, but you know that you are not allowed to do what you like with that knife becaseu you paid for it. there are laws (and morals) to stop you., | Sep 20 04:08 |
Will | zlg: again, you are trying to take it into an argument about personal safety | Sep 20 04:08 |
fewa | zlg, is it against your morals to publish information on how you can sync a iPod with a program other than iTunes? | Sep 20 04:09 |
fewa | cause it seems to me that you are making a highly tenacious argument | Sep 20 04:09 |
zlg | If a product does not do what I want it to do, I do not buy that product. | Sep 20 04:09 |
fewa | zlg, but is it against your morals? | Sep 20 04:09 |
fewa | zlg, as in: should the Government step in and prevent people that are not you, from doing it? | Sep 20 04:10 |
zlg | so I could not give a flying figleaf about ipods or whatever else you're talking about, and I wonder i fyou dont like them, do you use them ? or just complain about them., | Sep 20 04:10 |
fewa | zlg, you didn't answer my question | Sep 20 04:10 |
zlg | yes, I did, it was "I DONT CARE" about some weard abstract thing about iPods, I dont have an iPod so why the F#$@ would I care about them ? | Sep 20 04:11 |
Will | (correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have: voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program. | Sep 20 04:11 |
fewa | zlg, should the Government prevent others from publishing research on a file structure in the iPod? | Sep 20 04:11 |
zlg | again, I would really love to want to help you fewa | Sep 20 04:11 |
fewa | zlg, what are you talking about? | Sep 20 04:12 |
Will | Oh, one more thing: SD card expansion | Sep 20 04:12 |
zlg | think about it | Sep 20 04:12 |
fewa | zlg, you clearly stated a position, and now you are sulking away from it | Sep 20 04:12 |
zlg | im not sulking away from anying, I just dont give a fU%K about iPods | Sep 20 04:12 |
zlg | never had one, | Sep 20 04:12 |
zlg | never want one | Sep 20 04:13 |
zlg | will never own one | Sep 20 04:13 |
zlg | so dont ask me about them because I just dont care. | Sep 20 04:13 |
fewa | zlg, well you obviously care alot about trying to make it seem reasonable that the Government has a legitimate reason to regulate your study of one. | Sep 20 04:13 |
zlg | again, do you understand what "I dont care" means ? | Sep 20 04:14 |
fewa | zlg, if you didn't care you wouldn't have made that long arduous argument | Sep 20 04:15 |
zlg | my government has not done that, if you're has get a new one then | Sep 20 04:15 |
zlg | I dont care about ipods is what I said. | Sep 20 04:15 |
fewa | zlg, your government does | Sep 20 04:15 |
fewa | or at least the United States government has | Sep 20 04:15 |
zlg | what government is tha t? | Sep 20 04:15 |
*Will doesn't really care about ipods either. | Sep 20 04:16 | |
zlg | well you'll be surprised that the US government is not the world government | Sep 20 04:16 |
fewa | zlg, Microsoft seems to think it is | Sep 20 04:16 |
fewa | just look at the letter they write people | Sep 20 04:16 |
zlg | I dont give a flying figleaf about microsoft either | Sep 20 04:17 |
fewa | https://static.thepiratebay.org/ms-loveletter.txt | Sep 20 04:17 |
fewa | personally I don't see why people use the things at all | Sep 20 04:21 |
fewa | mobile music players | Sep 20 04:21 |
Will | jogging is one good use for them | Sep 20 04:22 |
fewa | but I don't see why the government should step in and say how I can use my device | Sep 20 04:22 |
Will | or just gym in general sometimes | Sep 20 04:22 |
fewa | or anybodies device | Sep 20 04:22 |
*flatfish (i=182e557a@gateway/web/freenode/x-lxeuutfzukxvfuhd) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 04:22 | |
zlg | thats what I would have said, it's probably good for people who like to listen to things when they are you know ... mobile :) | Sep 20 04:22 |
Will | probably good for audiobooks too. | Sep 20 04:24 |
flatfish | nctcp %s VERSION mIRC 5.91 (16 bit) for Microsoft © Windows For WorkGroups 3.11® | Sep 20 04:24 |
flatfish | Why does Linux have such a dismal desktop market share even after 15+ years of being free? | Sep 20 04:26 |
zlg | good question, probably because its not all about it being free, other factors are involved | Sep 20 04:28 |
flatfish | ok..but Vista sucked, we all agree.. WinMe suckes...we all agree...let's not even talk about Bob...so why can't free Linux gain some market? | Sep 20 04:29 |
Will | marketing, not really trying until a few years ago, and possibly industry collusion. | Sep 20 04:29 |
flatfish | Nahhhh...Free trumps it all....but it has to be free *and* good | Sep 20 04:29 |
Will | but that said... <_< ... >_> ... troll question?? | Sep 20 04:30 |
flatfish | Yea...anything that asks the obvious about Linux is a troll question...how about addressing the points... | Sep 20 04:30 |
zlg | exactly, and secure, and accountable and reliable, and preferably well supported. | Sep 20 04:30 |
Will | ok flatfish: how can people know whether it is good or not if they haven't used it | Sep 20 04:30 |
flatfish | I'll give Linux secure, but only becuase the black hats haven't deemed it a target yet, for desktops... | Sep 20 04:31 |
zlg | I know a Lambogini is a good car, but I have not driven one. | Sep 20 04:31 |
_Hicham_ | heh | Sep 20 04:31 |
flatfish | Free...how about netbooks...Linux was 1st...what happened when Windows versions were released? | Sep 20 04:32 |
_Hicham_ | MS pressure babe | Sep 20 04:32 |
flatfish | I have driven a Lamb....highly over rated....FWIW I was doing 70mph and never got out of 2nd gear :) | Sep 20 04:32 |
Will | flatfish: people have a hard time buying preinstalled Linux if the stores refuse to carry it | Sep 20 04:32 |
_Hicham_ | MS was bribing the vendors of course | Sep 20 04:33 |
flatfish | re:preinstalled...true...but the netbook, Walmart, Dell, MSI, Vono something or other have tried and faild | Sep 20 04:33 |
flatfish | Bribing? | Sep 20 04:33 |
_Hicham_ | failed ? | Sep 20 04:33 |
flatfish | Come on already,,,,,,it;s called marketing... | Sep 20 04:33 |
Will | Someone fish up that Walmart document from BN's archives | Sep 20 04:33 |
flatfish | IBM, GM, Chrysler, etc all do it. | Sep 20 04:34 |
Will | also, it helps when the people selling Linux put decent distros on it, not half broken ones | Sep 20 04:34 |
zlg | most expensive car ive driven was a BMW M1 or something, cost A$120,000 at the same time I just spent $80 on my house | Sep 20 04:34 |
flatfish | Think about this:why do you think the absolute worst (for your kids) cereals are at eye leve, for a kid, in the market? | Sep 20 04:34 |
flatfish | Nice car!!!!!! | Sep 20 04:34 |
flatfish | Look, despite what you may believe, I don't hate Linux, I'm just telling it like it is | Sep 20 04:35 |
flatfish | Give away a free iPod clone and you will have a riot | Sep 20 04:36 |
flatfish | Give away Linux and nobody will be there | Sep 20 04:36 |
flatfish | Figure out why, and Linux may get somewhere on the desktop/. | Sep 20 04:36 |
Will | possibly of interest: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/22/microsoft-taskforce-vs-walmart-linux/ | Sep 20 04:36 |
flatfish | Walmart is an IBM owned account....I have a friend who works the account..Talk to IBM | Sep 20 04:37 |
flatfish | In fact IBM runs Walmart's helpdesk... | Sep 20 04:37 |
*Python132O (i=iriz@unaffiliated/python1320) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 04:38 | |
zlg | there is a price/performance/quality/support ratio that has to be correctly balanced for a product to fly. | Sep 20 04:38 |
Will | flatfish: ipods aren't that special as mp3 players go, but they are backed by tons of hype and marketing. Linux isn't at the moment. | Sep 20 04:38 |
flatfish | Bottom line: Free is only good when Free is better or at least close to what is commercial | Sep 20 04:38 |
Will | Free is only good when people think free is better or at least close to what they think commercial is | Sep 20 04:39 |
zlg | exactly | Sep 20 04:39 |
flatfish | Having used iPods and other devices, overall, support (car audio, holders, interfaces etc) the iPod kills the competition. | Sep 20 04:39 |
flatfish | it's not even close. | Sep 20 04:39 |
zlg | there is a stron argument for paying programmers to give them incentive to create commercal quality and therefore saleable product. | Sep 20 04:39 |
Will | flatfish: I'll repeat this post from before you logged in: (correct me if I'm wrong) things an ipod does not have that some players 1/3 the price do have: voice recording, radio, ability to sync with programs besides itunes, ogg and flac support, ability to delete songs from the player without syncing to a music program, SD card expansion. | Sep 20 04:40 |
zlg | my phone does all that except mabey ogg and flak | Sep 20 04:41 |
zlg | which I dont or have never used | Sep 20 04:41 |
Will | zlg: Red Hat gets paid. | Sep 20 04:41 |
zlg | they also dont sell software, the sell maintenance and support contracts. | Sep 20 04:42 |
flatfish | so how do u explain prgrammers that give their hard work away only to see IBM profit off it? | Sep 20 04:42 |
flatfish | I think they are fools | Sep 20 04:42 |
Will | that's kind of a general question. The answer could change depending on the situation. | Sep 20 04:43 |
cubezzz | lots of people donate their time for various reasons | Sep 20 04:43 |
zlg | there is a saying about "if you pay peanuts, you get monkies" | Sep 20 04:43 |
flatfish | Look, I think Linux is good, very good in fact, but until you guys link together and kill the fragmentation you are dead in the water | Sep 20 04:43 |
flatfish | I like the peanuts theory!!!! | Sep 20 04:44 |
Will | How much fragmentation is there really, though, across maybe the top 3 distros? | Sep 20 04:44 |
Will | default wallpaper doesn't count | Sep 20 04:44 |
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 04:44 | |
*twitter (n=willhill@97-113-230-249.tukw.qwest.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 04:45 | |
flatfish | It doesn't matter....10 years ago to a noob Linux was Redhat. Today it's Ubuntu. Even the most zealto Linux fan will admit that Ubunt, will good, is really not the best distro in terms of qualit. | Sep 20 04:46 |
flatfish | What if we got the Ubuntu, PCLOS, Mepis etc developers together and created a totally new killer distro? | Sep 20 04:47 |
*twitter ignores flatfish | Sep 20 04:47 | |
Will | zlg: good thing Linux people don't all get paid peanuts then: http://www.lifeinfozone.com/education-training/linux-profession-with-linux-certification-top-paying-job-in-us/ | Sep 20 04:47 |
zlg is Mutex | Sep 20 04:47 | |
flatfish | Yea twatter...u are afraid of the truth....How are those 1000's of nyms doing on /. ? | Sep 20 04:47 |
Will | flatfish: ok, question is, how would it differ from the Ubuntu/Red Hat/Mandriva of today? | Sep 20 04:48 |
flatfish | It would work... | Sep 20 04:48 |
zlg | twittler, ?? again, you only seem to wakeup if someone says something you dont agree with. | Sep 20 04:48 |
flatfish | As for Linux jobs, I advise everyone to learn Linux, it will increase your worth | Sep 20 04:49 |
Will | flatfish: more specfically? | Sep 20 04:49 |
flatfish | Twatter is a moron.... | Sep 20 04:49 |
flatfish | I am being resonable, no trolling, just asking | Sep 20 04:49 |
Will | i.e. what doesn't work. If we are going to improve, we need to zero in on specifics. | Sep 20 04:49 |
flatfish | Mandriva tries to sell the user CODECS....bad, very bad | Sep 20 04:50 |
Will | Mint includes them preinstalled | Sep 20 04:50 |
zlg | or you can just accuse them of trolling or being a ??/ Mutex as opposed to facing you know, reality. | Sep 20 04:51 |
flatfish | Assuming you can get by the Mint partiioner...it has problems with big systems and multiple ddrives | Sep 20 04:51 |
flatfish | I like Mint though... | Sep 20 04:51 |
Will | flatfish: I've never used a Linux installer to partition. I do that with PartedMagic | Sep 20 04:51 |
*DaemonFC (i=none@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 04:51 | |
flatfish | I'm not Mutex....Roy can verify this.,.,.I give Roy credit for letting me speak...he's kool that way.. | Sep 20 04:51 |
Will | I used to do it with PartionMagic until I found out about PartedMagic | Sep 20 04:51 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Windows/Microsoft-Lawsuit-Shows-Malicious-Advertising-A-Growing-Issue-295913/ | Sep 20 04:52 |
flatfish | PM totally killed a drive for me....I hate it... | Sep 20 04:52 |
Will | ymmv | Sep 20 04:52 |
flatfish | I suppose | Sep 20 04:52 |
*Omar87 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 04:52 | |
Will | I've never had problems with PartedMagic. | Sep 20 04:52 |
flatfish | Lots of people use and like it | Sep 20 04:52 |
DaemonFC | it's not just IE users who are at risk, thinks like Windows Live Messenger use the IE rendering engine to display ads | Sep 20 04:52 |
DaemonFC | *things | Sep 20 04:53 |
cubezzz | I've never had problems with linux fdisk | Sep 20 04:53 |
flatfish | I avoide IE...I use FF | Sep 20 04:53 |
Will | I just like partitioning with a live system in ram. Not mounted on any filesystem. | Sep 20 04:53 |
flatfish | I'm off to sleep...nice chatting with ya'll///GN | Sep 20 04:54 |
*flatfish has quit ("Page closed") | Sep 20 04:54 | |
DaemonFC | that's why I put Microsoft's ad servers in the hosts file resolving to 127.0.0.1 and set IE's sliders all to high | Sep 20 04:55 |
*Python1320 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 04:55 | |
DaemonFC | and don't keep any plugins installed in it | Sep 20 04:55 |
*Will must resist urge to make crack about "malicious advertising, Microsoft, and Best Buy" | Sep 20 04:55 | |
DaemonFC | malware spreaders are using advertisements on legit websites to pwn Internet Explorer users | Sep 20 04:56 |
DaemonFC | IE 8 is still swiss cheese near as I can tell | Sep 20 04:56 |
DaemonFC | they just got rid of a lot of the most obscene problems | Sep 20 04:56 |
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 04:57 | |
DaemonFC | they keep refusing to patch problems on the Windows Vista and 7 versions because they claim UAC takes care of the problems | Sep 20 04:57 |
DaemonFC | not all users have UAC on, so what then? | Sep 20 04:57 |
cubezzz | this is making me nostalgic for text based internet | Sep 20 04:57 |
DaemonFC | the Windows XP version of IE 8 gets patched 8-12 times a month | Sep 20 04:58 |
DaemonFC | that's not any improvement over IE 6 | Sep 20 04:58 |
zlg | DaemonFC and how many patches PER HOUR does Linux Torvalds recieve ? | Sep 20 04:59 |
cubezzz | Linus :) | Sep 20 04:59 |
DaemonFC | I can't even imagine how anyone would put up with MSIE | Sep 20 04:59 |
zlg | Yes, Linus* | Sep 20 04:59 |
DaemonFC | even MS MVPs recommend avoiding it | Sep 20 04:59 |
cubezzz | ok one question DaemonFC | Sep 20 04:59 |
cubezzz | why do you use IE at all? | Sep 20 05:00 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, Directly? I don't. | Sep 20 05:00 |
DaemonFC | but a lot of applications embed it | Sep 20 05:00 |
DaemonFC | Windows Live Messenger, Winamp, etc | Sep 20 05:01 |
DaemonFC | MS Office has its own rendering engine now | Sep 20 05:01 |
DaemonFC | so does Expression Web | Sep 20 05:01 |
DaemonFC | Microsoft is avoiding using the IE engine in a lot of their other products | Sep 20 05:02 |
cubezzz | after what happened with the EU Commission you would think that IE would be separate from the rest of windows | Sep 20 05:03 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, I don't think that IE will live on much longer using the Trident Engine | Sep 20 05:03 |
DaemonFC | I'd imagine that it will be overhauled in IE 9 or 10 | Sep 20 05:04 |
DaemonFC | it's getting old and it never performed well | Sep 20 05:04 |
Will | zlg: I think someone made the same Linus/Linux typo on a kernel dev mailing list one time. Led to a joke that rumors that Mr. Torvalds actually upgrades himself were true. | Sep 20 05:05 |
zlg | licky the HURD did not get up, or it would have been "Richardux" | Sep 20 05:06 |
zlg | and GNU/GNU | Sep 20 05:07 |
Will | ah Hurd. With Linux (kernel) around, I wonder if it will ever see the light of day. | Sep 20 05:07 |
Will | But I bet when it does, it will run Duke Nukem Forever! | Sep 20 05:07 |
zlg | considering how much code stallman does (NOT) product it's a still born | Sep 20 05:08 |
cubezzz | there's Hurd LiveCD if you're curious | Sep 20 05:09 |
cubezzz | but... | Sep 20 05:09 |
cubezzz | does not support USB devices, PCMCIA cards or sound cards | Sep 20 05:09 |
A dear john letter for Slashdot http://slashdot.org/~twitter/journal/237473 | Sep 20 05:10 | |
Debian Hurd does not do USB? | Sep 20 05:11 | |
cubezzz | ok, what I'm looking at is old: 20051117 | Sep 20 05:11 |
zlg | twitter bye ! | Sep 20 05:12 |
DaemonFC | Duke Nukem Forever has only been in production since 1997, right? | Sep 20 05:13 |
DaemonFC | HURD has been since 1984 | Sep 20 05:13 |
cubezzz | you can download Hurd though | Sep 20 05:13 |
cubezzz | I wouldn't compare it to DNF | Sep 20 05:14 |
DaemonFC | you can download HURD, can't do much with it though | Sep 20 05:18 |
Will | I could be wrong here, but it seems that things that stay in development for significantly longer than the average dev time for a kind of product tend to either be extraordinarily great (Half-Life 2), or a spectacular failure (Vista) | Sep 20 05:19 |
DaemonFC | Will, I got ahold of most of the pre-Vista builds of "Longhorn" and it was actually not bad til after the "reset" when all kinds of bloat started getting tacked onto it | Sep 20 05:21 |
DaemonFC | I was not thrilled with how much RAM DWM wanted in Vista either | Sep 20 05:21 |
Will | DaemonFC: the reset was probably what killed it. | Sep 20 05:21 |
Will | Ok, I haven't kept up with HURD, nor do I have any skin in the project, but my guess is that there probably isn't much developer enthusiasm for getting HURD off the ground when the energy could be better spent improving the existing, viable, and proven open source kernel that we already have. | Sep 20 05:22 |
DaemonFC | Where things actually went wrong for Vista was in Windows XP | Sep 20 05:23 |
DaemonFC | they should have come up with a way to run you as a normal user in XP | Sep 20 05:24 |
DaemonFC | and not have a system where you couldn't do anything, including changing the clock | Sep 20 05:24 |
Will | DaemonFC: OSX does the admin by default thing too, oddly enough. | Sep 20 05:24 |
DaemonFC | they should have had UAC starting in XP | Sep 20 05:24 |
DaemonFC | yeah, but in OS X, the administrator is pretty much a normal user with sudo access though | Sep 20 05:25 |
DaemonFC | if I recall correctly | Sep 20 05:25 |
DaemonFC | the actual root account is locked | Sep 20 05:25 |
DaemonFC | Ubuntu pretty much does the same thing | Sep 20 05:25 |
Will | DaemonFC: XP's long reign didn't help either. Consumer Inertia works great for Microsoft, until it works against it. | Sep 20 05:26 |
zlg | if it works against them | Sep 20 05:26 |
DaemonFC | well, just having everything on XP running as Administrator creates a security nightmare | Sep 20 05:26 |
DaemonFC | because a bug anywhere can enable a remote exploit | Sep 20 05:26 |
Will | Did I say XP's long reign _didn't_ (past tense). Oops. My mistake. XP's long reign doesn't. There. Fixed. | Sep 20 05:27 |
zlg | xI would guess running Linux in Su would cause similar problems | Sep 20 05:27 |
Will | zlg: right. Which is why it is strongly discouraged and never allowed by default. | Sep 20 05:27 |
DaemonFC | as long as XP is used by a big chunk of the market, even things like Firefox will have to be designed in such a way that makes them XP compatible | Sep 20 05:27 |
cubezzz | Will, it is sometimes | Sep 20 05:28 |
DaemonFC | so Firefox 4 might even have to be designed around a 10 year old (by then) OS | Sep 20 05:28 |
cubezzz | embedix for example | Sep 20 05:28 |
Will | didn't know about that | Sep 20 05:28 |
Will | DaemonFC: only the Windows version of Firefox | Sep 20 05:29 |
DaemonFC | meh, Firefox is really just a Windows program with a second rate port to Linux | Sep 20 05:29 |
DaemonFC | it's not just your imagination if the Windows version smokes the Linux one | Sep 20 05:30 |
zlg | you cant blame someone who wants to be popular targetting the largest market. | Sep 20 05:30 |
Will | the only real difference I've noticed is flash, which is a well known Adobe problem. | Sep 20 05:30 |
DaemonFC | Firefox 3.5 on Windows is still a little over 15-20% faster than the Linux versions, overall | Sep 20 05:30 |
DaemonFC | it's why these Linux distributions shouldn't be shipping Firefox or Gecko-based browsers | Sep 20 05:31 |
zlg | all my browsers are far faster than my net connection. | Sep 20 05:31 |
DaemonFC | they should be concentrating on Webkit | Sep 20 05:31 |
cubezzz | Firefox was descended from Mozilla | Sep 20 05:31 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:32 | |
cubezzz | cross-platform | Sep 20 05:32 |
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.248.131.76) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:32 | |
DaemonFC | yeah, just because it builds on a platform doesn't mean it's optimized for that platform | Sep 20 05:32 |
DaemonFC | Firefox is very different on each platform | Sep 20 05:32 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC the computer scientist | Sep 20 05:33 |
zlg | at least on this he's right | Sep 20 05:33 |
_Hicham_ | why do u talk about Firefox since u hate it? | Sep 20 05:33 |
_Hicham_ | troll ? | Sep 20 05:33 |
zlg | _Hicham_ why do you talk about MS if you hate them ? | Sep 20 05:33 |
*ziggyfish has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 05:34 | |
_Hicham_ | zlg : I try not to talk about MS | Sep 20 05:34 |
Will | I've never benchmarked them. I can say one thing that any browser will need to compete well against Firefox: Adblock. | Sep 20 05:34 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:34 | |
_Hicham_ | since we have choice | Sep 20 05:34 |
_Hicham_ | Will : Google Chrome have AdSweep | Sep 20 05:35 |
*ziggyfish has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 05:35 | |
cubezzz | well if you trace things back you will see everyone copied NCSA Mosaic | Sep 20 05:35 |
cubezzz | Unix based | Sep 20 05:35 |
Will | Hicham: If it works, then good enough. | Sep 20 05:35 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:35 | |
_Hicham_ | But no browser compare to Firefox in functionality | Sep 20 05:35 |
cubezzz | and AmigaDOS and WIndows and etc etc | Sep 20 05:36 |
_Hicham_ | really, no browser can compare to it in that field | Sep 20 05:36 |
_Hicham_ | other browser might be more speedy, more responsive | Sep 20 05:36 |
_Hicham_ | but not fully functional as firefox | Sep 20 05:36 |
cubezzz | lynx is faster than all of them | Sep 20 05:36 |
Will | but Firefox is the all-arounder. | Sep 20 05:36 |
_Hicham_ | u can optimize firefox | Sep 20 05:37 |
_Hicham_ | but u will get a lot of segfaults | Sep 20 05:37 |
zlg | cant change font size | Sep 20 05:37 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : where ? | Sep 20 05:37 |
*ziggyfish has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 05:37 | |
zlg | in FF | Sep 20 05:37 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : ? | Sep 20 05:37 |
_Hicham_ | are u talking seriously ? | Sep 20 05:37 |
Will | I can | Sep 20 05:37 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:37 | |
zlg | sorry I was just going by what Roy Swestowitz said the other day. my bad. | Sep 20 05:38 |
Will | ctrl+, ctrl- | Sep 20 05:38 |
Will | or cmd if on OSX | Sep 20 05:38 |
zlg | tell it to the Roy | Sep 20 05:38 |
Will | ctrl-0 to go to default size | Sep 20 05:38 |
zlg | cool, | Sep 20 05:38 |
Will | and in the preferences menu, you can change font and font size | Sep 20 05:39 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : u don't use FF ? | Sep 20 05:39 |
Will | and have your font settings override the website font settings | Sep 20 05:39 |
zlg | I have it on here, but I tend not to bother with it, It has nothing I need | Sep 20 05:39 |
_Hicham_ | ah, what do u use ? | Sep 20 05:39 |
zlg | some version of ie, but i would have to look up what one, i dont find it an issue. | Sep 20 05:40 |
*Will wonders what zlg sees in IE anymore. | Sep 20 05:40 | |
_Hicham_ | zlg : u don't use linux at all ? | Sep 20 05:40 |
zlg | what do I see it, it, um everything I look at | Sep 20 05:41 |
Will | ? | Sep 20 05:41 |
_Hicham_ | or ur using IE with wine ? | Sep 20 05:41 |
*ziggyfish has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 05:41 | |
zlg | Ive been using windows and alternative OS's for 30 + years, | Sep 20 05:41 |
_Hicham_ | and u settled down for Windows ? | Sep 20 05:42 |
Will | it's just that its rare to see someone that knows about more than one browser that sticks with IE. | Sep 20 05:42 |
zlg | Ive used Unix and Linux and VMS, and mickbug, pipbug, amstrados, AmigaOS for a long long time. | Sep 20 05:42 |
zlg | to the point where I dont care as long as it works. | Sep 20 05:42 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:43 | |
zlg | I used to use FF heaps, and it was good, but the functions I used to use I no longer use. | Sep 20 05:43 |
_Hicham_ | interesting theory | Sep 20 05:43 |
cubezzz | well I want source code | Sep 20 05:43 |
cubezzz | I never had the source code for anything except Linux and Minix | Sep 20 05:44 |
ziggyfish | hello all | Sep 20 05:44 |
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 05:44 | |
zlg | I used linux for years and years, and never did i have a requirement to look at or modify the source code. | Sep 20 05:44 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : never ? | Sep 20 05:44 |
zlg | so "FOR ME" there was no point in having that "feature" | Sep 20 05:44 |
zlg | yes, NEVER | Sep 20 05:44 |
cubezzz | well everyone is different but... | Sep 20 05:44 |
_Hicham_ | I like to have source code | Sep 20 05:45 |
*ziggyfish_ (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:45 | |
_Hicham_ | and modify it for my needs | Sep 20 05:45 |
cubezzz | I think it's a big deal to have OS code and driver code | Sep 20 05:45 |
ziggyfish | _Hicham_: me too | Sep 20 05:45 |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 05:45 | |
cubezzz | I've had all sorts of access to driver code, but not very much OS code | Sep 20 05:45 |
zlg | ok how often do you view and modify the source code ? | Sep 20 05:45 |
cubezzz | SCO Unix showed me some though | Sep 20 05:46 |
DaemonFC | I'm thinking of setting up a fan club | Sep 20 05:46 |
cubezzz | zlg: I spent probably 6 hours a week looking at drivers | Sep 20 05:46 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : everytime I have a problem at least | Sep 20 05:46 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_ can be the President and Treasurer | Sep 20 05:46 |
zlg | and you have problems often ? | Sep 20 05:46 |
cubezzz | modded the brook tree stuff for tv tuners | Sep 20 05:46 |
ziggyfish | zig when I use new software, I always like to see the implementation | Sep 20 05:47 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : with major updates | Sep 20 05:47 |
cubezzz | well hp 4470c was a huge problem | Sep 20 05:47 |
zlg | ok | Sep 20 05:47 |
cubezzz | I don't have big problems often | Sep 20 05:47 |
cubezzz | I modded mplayer | Sep 20 05:47 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : If u are living on the edge, u will need source code | Sep 20 05:47 |
Will | zlg: I haven't done much tinkering with Linux source code. But the fact that it is open lets me know that there's little chance that any shenanigans were hidden in there. | Sep 20 05:47 |
Will | or else they would be found and stripped out | Sep 20 05:48 |
cubezzz | Will, well you can compile it :) | Sep 20 05:48 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : ah, and I forgot, optimization | Sep 20 05:48 |
cubezzz | you can't do that on many 'mainstream' OS | Sep 20 05:48 |
_Hicham_ | optimization is really a big deal | Sep 20 05:48 |
zlg | allthough major flaws still remain undetected for years, with the source code open. If thats a "failsafe" it's not doing so well | Sep 20 05:49 |
_Hicham_ | u can optimize software for ur platform | Sep 20 05:49 |
DaemonFC | What's funny with those Bing ads is that they're describing their own search results wit hthe mindless and irrelevant chatter | Sep 20 05:49 |
_Hicham_ | and ur machine | Sep 20 05:49 |
Will | I can compile source code. And have on some big stuff before. | Sep 20 05:49 |
cubezzz | right now I am porting stuff to embedix | Sep 20 05:49 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : major flaws ? | Sep 20 05:49 |
zlg | yes, like that SSH one just recently | Sep 20 05:49 |
zlg | pretty major | Sep 20 05:50 |
_Hicham_ | are u talking about that debian stuff ? | Sep 20 05:50 |
Will | wasn't that a debian patch on vanilla ssh that did it? | Sep 20 05:50 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : is that what u r talking about ? | Sep 20 05:51 |
zlg | ill go find the link | Sep 20 05:51 |
ziggyfish_ | DaemonFC, the funny thing is, Bing looks to me like a site for me to buy things and not a site for researching information | Sep 20 05:51 |
cubezzz | The flaw was the removal of most of the entropy (randomness) from the key generation process | Sep 20 05:51 |
cubezzz | it was fixed btw | Sep 20 05:51 |
ziggyfish_ | where as Google looks like a site for searching | Sep 20 05:51 |
zlg | it was fixed when it was found, but how long (in years) was it undetected, or detected and exploited until someone at SUN found it ? | Sep 20 05:52 |
cubezzz | I don't think I've ever had an ssh problem myself | Sep 20 05:52 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, this sound like FUD? | Sep 20 05:52 |
Will | typing in random searches that are unflattering to MS in Bing and Google and then comparing results can be amusing sometimes. | Sep 20 05:52 |
cubezzz | ok, well let me just say on my machines you can only ssh in from one user account and no one whos what that is :) | Sep 20 05:53 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : this is not a major issue | Sep 20 05:53 |
cubezzz | so we are careful | Sep 20 05:53 |
Will | of course, I'm sure we can also find Windows flaws that stretch back several releases. | Sep 20 05:53 |
_Hicham_ | it affected Debian based distros | Sep 20 05:53 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : it is not upstream fault | Sep 20 05:53 |
cubezzz | I don't even turn sshd on unless I'm away from the server's physical location | Sep 20 05:54 |
_Hicham_ | zlg : it is debian fault, and more precisely, the developer's fault | Sep 20 05:54 |
ziggyfish_ | Will, their has been known flaws that haven't been fixed for years | Sep 20 05:54 |
cubezzz | ok, so you have problems either way | Sep 20 05:54 |
cubezzz | which one do you really want, no code or with code? | Sep 20 05:54 |
ziggyfish_ | cubezzz, I would want the code, so I can see for myself | Sep 20 05:55 |
cubezzz | excellent :) | Sep 20 05:55 |
zlg | it does not seem to make alot of difference, code or no code the bugs and flaws are still there and in numbers. | Sep 20 05:56 |
cubezzz | zlg: I fix bugs, it's part of my job(s) | Sep 20 05:56 |
zlg | good for you. | Sep 20 05:56 |
zlg | so it's in your interest that code is produced with bugs ? | Sep 20 05:57 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, the difference is I can fixed them with the source code, without I can't | Sep 20 05:57 |
cubezzz | even reading the comments is helpful for that matter | Sep 20 05:58 |
zlg | you can fix them with the source code if you are an experienced programmer and have nothing better to do, like make a living, or actually use the App you want to make a living | Sep 20 05:58 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, but without the source code, even if your an experienced programmer, you have to wait until it is fully expoited or wait until the company produces the fix | Sep 20 06:00 |
*Xarver has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 06:00 | |
zlg | or use something that works. | Sep 20 06:00 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, with the source code you could always hire someone to fix it for you | Sep 20 06:00 |
Will | come to think of it, zlg, what is your point on that? | Sep 20 06:01 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, that's why I use Linux, it just works | Sep 20 06:01 |
zlg | If im writing a letter I want to flash up a wordprocessor and start typing, I dont want to be frigging with compilers or source code to write a damn letter. | Sep 20 06:01 |
Will | There are other benefits of open source | Sep 20 06:01 |
Will | you don't have to mess with compilers to write a letter | Sep 20 06:01 |
zlg | like what ? | Sep 20 06:01 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, FUD | Sep 20 06:01 |
zlg | oh wait, someone does not like what im saying, you now going to call me a troll. | Sep 20 06:02 |
Will | Flexibility, knowing that it won't go under if a company goes under, benefiting from a wider developer pool than any one company can provide. | Sep 20 06:02 |
zlg | your word for anyone with a different opinion to yours? | Sep 20 06:02 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, I've never had to compile anything for the last 3 years, and even then it was something from a site that only cared about windows | Sep 20 06:02 |
cubezzz | *ahem* porting? | Sep 20 06:02 |
Will | zlg: no, but they will call you out when you say things that aren't true, like needing a compiler to write an office document. | Sep 20 06:02 |
zlg | so for you ziggy having the source code is pointless, fair enough | Sep 20 06:03 |
cubezzz | ok, well if you don't compile you don't compile | Sep 20 06:03 |
zlg | you need a compiler to fix the code of the wordprocessor if you have to modify to code to get it to work, IS WHAT i said. | Sep 20 06:03 |
cubezzz | the only word processor-like entity I ever compiled was vim and a early hexediter which doesn't count | Sep 20 06:04 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, no, having the source code means that I know that if I an addition to the software I can compile it myself | Sep 20 06:04 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, same with non-opensource software, right? | Sep 20 06:05 |
cubezzz | I don't enjoy fixing bugs in other people's code btw | Sep 20 06:05 |
zlg | yes, someone else was saying they needed the source to fix problems, I was just stating that rather than spending time "fixing problems" with the source code, I would rather be doing the thing I entended to do in the first place | Sep 20 06:05 |
cubezzz | yes, when necessary | Sep 20 06:05 |
Will | zlg: well, what is your point? In a proprietary word processor, if thre are bugs, you are at the companies mercy if you want the bugs fixed, and you might have to pay for the bugfix. With an open source wordprocessor, if a bug is found you can be in the same position--minus having to pay for the bugfix--if you'd like. | Sep 20 06:05 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, you could always work around the error | Sep 20 06:05 |
Will | But you do have the option of fixing it if you want. Or improving it. | Sep 20 06:06 |
cubezzz | there are bugs in closed source things, like WP for MS DOS for example | Sep 20 06:06 |
zlg | if you are not an experienced programmer with lots of time on your hands a problem with OO will bring you down just as quick | Sep 20 06:06 |
cubezzz | drivers and porting for me mostly | Sep 20 06:07 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, work around it, or better yet, report the error to one of the developers currently working on it. | Sep 20 06:07 |
cubezzz | probably wouldn't touch OO or browser | Sep 20 06:07 |
zlg | and in the mean time, if it does not do what you want ? | Sep 20 06:07 |
zlg | you sit and do nothing ? | Sep 20 06:07 |
Will | zlg: A problem with Word will bring you down regardless of your programming skills. And your chances of being able to talk to an OO dev are much better than your chances of contacting a Word dev. | Sep 20 06:08 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, so what problem do you have that you can't get around, maybe I can help | Sep 20 06:09 |
zlg | mabey, but if you are not an experienced programmer (guru) with lots of time on your hands having the code is pointless. | Sep 20 06:09 |
zlg | None, everthing I have works just as I expect it too. | Sep 20 06:09 |
zlg | as it should | Sep 20 06:09 |
Will | zlg: what you haven't yet made clear to me is how open source puts you in a _worse_ position than proprietary does | Sep 20 06:09 |
zlg | otherwise I would use something else , that does work | Sep 20 06:09 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, if I was blind, having a TV would be pointless | Sep 20 06:09 |
cubezzz | ok, let's assume you are a programmer for a second | Sep 20 06:10 |
cubezzz | you're trying to learn stuff and you see something interesting, it could be anything | Sep 20 06:10 |
cubezzz | ok, so you..... | Sep 20 06:10 |
cubezzz | check out the source code, yay | Sep 20 06:10 |
Will | cubezzz is bringing an advantage to open source I forgot to mention | Sep 20 06:11 |
cubezzz | or you're adding or porting something | Sep 20 06:11 |
zlg | open source puts me in a worse position than proprietary code as most of the applications I use work, no sorry ALL of my apps work. | Sep 20 06:11 |
Will | the learning/teaching factor | Sep 20 06:11 |
Will | zlg: and the open source ones don't work? | Sep 20 06:11 |
zlg | cubezzz say your a NON-programmer for a second. | Sep 20 06:12 |
zlg | the open source ones dont exist | Sep 20 06:12 |
Will | zlg: in what area(s)? | Sep 20 06:12 |
Will | finding the gaps is the first step to correcting them. | Sep 20 06:12 |
zlg | huge number of areas, how about a decent Printed circuit board design tool, (commercail qualityh), or a scada superviser, or a Ladder logic interpretter, | Sep 20 06:13 |
zlg | or satellite phone interface and configuration software. | Sep 20 06:13 |
ziggyfish_ | hangon, give me a min, let me do a google search | Sep 20 06:14 |
zlg | or commercail quality PGA design tools, electronics simulations, | Sep 20 06:14 |
ziggyfish_ | Ladder logic interpretter - http://www.control.com/thread/1005082485 | Sep 20 06:15 |
zlg | Get me a configuration utility for a nera 3080 satphone please. | Sep 20 06:15 |
Will | zlg: you are learning another aspect of open source culture right now: community | Sep 20 06:15 |
zlg | ok try IEC 61131-3 compliant. | Sep 20 06:16 |
ziggyfish_ | scada superviser - http://www.modcomp.com/scada/index.htm | Sep 20 06:16 |
*Omar87 (n=omar@94.249.29.7.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 06:17 | |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, wine | Sep 20 06:17 |
ziggyfish_ | http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/mirror/tools_htmlized.html - Printed circuit board design tool | Sep 20 06:18 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, anymore | Sep 20 06:18 |
zlg | wine nice to drink, but NO ONE in their right mind would think to put another 2 or 3 layers of API and software in a SCADA system. (that they expect to work). | Sep 20 06:18 |
cubezzz | ok, we are way off track here :) | Sep 20 06:18 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, look and you shall find | Sep 20 06:18 |
cubezzz | my own goal was to be able to program my own stuff | Sep 20 06:19 |
zlg | there are all those tools I know, Ive look at them all, thats why I said commercial grade. which they are decidely NOT. | Sep 20 06:19 |
Will | zlg: but if, even after a careful search, you still have a few areas where you can't find sufficient open source programs, then use proprietary stuff for now. But maybe ask around a bit. Maybe you can talk to someone or hire someone to get a program made. | Sep 20 06:19 |
cubezzz | I reached my goal, and i've never used a satphone :) | Sep 20 06:19 |
zlg | Look up Citect and IsaGraf, and find me good FOSS equivs | Sep 20 06:20 |
Will | zlg: but also, from the sound of it, this isn't exactly the kind of software your average user (home or maybe even enterprise) would use anyway. | Sep 20 06:21 |
zlg | and If i get paid $500 for one hour work on a sat phone, I dont want to be waisting 3 hours searching for some software that after all is not going to do any better OR cheaper than what I have or am using | Sep 20 06:21 |
cubezzz | you could have access to code without it being FOSS | Sep 20 06:21 |
cubezzz | which is the case much of the time | Sep 20 06:21 |
Will | not saying that the gap isn't important, just that there are large user sections that the gap wouldn't effect. | Sep 20 06:21 |
cubezzz | in fact, it was the case almost all the time, in the recent past | Sep 20 06:22 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, I only needed 5 mins | Sep 20 06:22 |
cubezzz | FOSS is new | Sep 20 06:22 |
zlg | every time you use a tap, use electricity, go to the toilet, you are using SCADA systems. you probably use them more than any one single thing, you just dont know it. | Sep 20 06:22 |
Will | or see if the commercial vendors will provide a Linux version of their software, even if it is closed source | Sep 20 06:23 |
zlg | FOSS is OLD | Sep 20 06:23 |
Will | zlg: I was talking about computer users | Sep 20 06:23 |
zlg | so was I | Sep 20 06:23 |
zlg | :) | Sep 20 06:23 |
Will | how many people know what scada means? | Sep 20 06:23 |
ziggyfish_ | http://www.citect.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1463&Itemid=1317 , looks like it is web based | Sep 20 06:24 |
zlg | Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition | Sep 20 06:24 |
Will | by your own words, most people "just don't know it" | Sep 20 06:24 |
zlg | it's what controls power stations, water supply, electrinic, factories, plants, well just about everything. | Sep 20 06:24 |
ziggyfish_ | http://free-scada.org/ | Sep 20 06:25 |
cubezzz | lol | Sep 20 06:26 |
cubezzz | well I guess I better get working on my own scada system | Sep 20 06:26 |
ziggyfish_ | lol | Sep 20 06:26 |
zlg | yes, I know what citect is | Sep 20 06:26 |
Will | ziggyfish: This is good work btw. I could use some ammo for talks in this area. | Sep 20 06:27 |
cubezzz | no one can program _everything_ | Sep 20 06:27 |
cubezzz | Stallman has probably stopped writing code | Sep 20 06:27 |
zlg | almost no one can program _ANything_ | Sep 20 06:27 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, my point is that it's cross platform, meaning I can use this software anywhere if I got a browser | Sep 20 06:27 |
ziggyfish_ | http://www.oscada.org/ | Sep 20 06:28 |
ziggyfish_ | Will, no problem, it's fun seeing proving trolls wrong | Sep 20 06:28 |
cubezzz | zlg: it's like you're going into a room full of carpenters and telling them they can buy furniture at Sears | Sep 20 06:28 |
zlg | gee I could watch a movie frmo a Linux web server, does that mean im using Linux ? | Sep 20 06:28 |
zlg | they can | Sep 20 06:29 |
Will | well, if there was no Linux, how would you have watched the movie? | Sep 20 06:29 |
cubezzz | well, I happen to like programming, so of course I want source code | Sep 20 06:29 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, it means I have the option to run linux if I want | Sep 20 06:29 |
zlg | they are free to do so if they wish. are you saying you are telling them they cannot ? | Sep 20 06:29 |
*ziggyfish_ nods at Will, good point | Sep 20 06:30 | |
zlg | I like programming too, I dont like programming other peoples code, I tend to like to do my own. | Sep 20 06:30 |
zlg | Feels better than copying the efforts of others, to me, anyway, more moral. | Sep 20 06:30 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, well than you don't like programming software used by other people | Sep 20 06:30 |
cubezzz | I did mention porting and bug fixes yes? :) | Sep 20 06:30 |
zlg | I dont like programming, by using other peoples programs, | Sep 20 06:31 |
zlg | It';s not really me then, its someone elses idea's. | Sep 20 06:31 |
cubezzz | you can learn what to avoid | Sep 20 06:31 |
Will | but zlg: what I mean is this: if there truly is a dearth of quality scada software that runs in Linux, then that is a problem that needs to be addressed. But for the general populatoin, how many average users need to be able to use scada software? | Sep 20 06:31 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, so you have written your own compiler and OS | Sep 20 06:31 |
ziggyfish_ | ? | Sep 20 06:31 |
cubezzz | or learn something good | Sep 20 06:31 |
zlg | Yes, often | Sep 20 06:31 |
DaemonFC | http://www.answerbag.com/a_view/2138774 | Sep 20 06:32 |
DaemonFC | rofl | Sep 20 06:32 |
zlg | for my embedded systems, I write everything gui, OS, I/O the works, dont you ? | Sep 20 06:32 |
ziggyfish_ | yes | Sep 20 06:32 |
zlg | and I do it all from scratch, clean room, using C. | Sep 20 06:32 |
cubezzz | .... | Sep 20 06:32 |
zlg | well there you go them | Sep 20 06:32 |
Will | zlg: if you don't like programming with other people's code, then I know you've never done numerical/mathematical computing. | Sep 20 06:32 |
zlg | Ok Will, I have but whatever, clearly your psysic abilities trump mine :) | Sep 20 06:33 |
DaemonFC | http://www.kittens-lair.net/cat-humor/cats-diary.html | Sep 20 06:33 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, sorry, but a couple of minutes ago, you said your not an experienced programmer | Sep 20 06:33 |
zlg | so ive never studies binary spanning trees or the like, or boolean logic ? | Sep 20 06:33 |
Will | zlg: so you never used math libraries at all? | Sep 20 06:34 |
zlg | I was im a VERY experienced programmer | Sep 20 06:34 |
zlg | I said * | Sep 20 06:34 |
zlg | actually, no I do not generally use any libraries, I code those functions myself. | Sep 20 06:34 |
Will | zlg: no lapack, blas, no numpy, nothing like that? | Sep 20 06:35 |
zlg | I dont nkowm, did what I say not convey enough information ? | Sep 20 06:35 |
Will | zlg: if not, then I stand corrected. | Sep 20 06:35 |
Will | zlg: it's just that there are enough good quality wheels already out there that I'd think most people would rather stand on the shoulders of giants than reinvent the wheel, but what do I know, I guess. | Sep 20 06:37 |
zlg | there is a big difference to looking up how some guy did it, and saying to yourself, "why bother thinking, ill just do what he did". | Sep 20 06:38 |
Will | there's also some merit to using code that has been stress-tested for decades. | Sep 20 06:39 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, as long as what he did works, does it matter, if you did it your self or not? | Sep 20 06:39 |
ziggyfish_ | your really only wasting time | Sep 20 06:39 |
zlg | then explain the huge number of bugs in say Ubuntu, would there be so many if everyone did not just do what the guy before did ? | Sep 20 06:40 |
cubezzz | zlg: which operating system are you using now? | Sep 20 06:41 |
Will | zlg: isn't that also why there are some bugs? You write new code, it has new features, maybe those features haven't properly settled yet and they still have glitches. | Sep 20 06:42 |
zlg | your bias is starting to show, what does it matter what I use ? | Sep 20 06:42 |
Will | If everyone only did what the guy before did and nothing more, wouldn't it be stagnant and no new bugs would crop up? | Sep 20 06:42 |
zlg | if create something from a buggy chain, your product will increase the number (total sum) of bugs you have | Sep 20 06:43 |
zlg | bugs can multiply like a virus | Sep 20 06:44 |
Will | That's true for proprietary and open source. But hopefully over time the chain gets tested and refined and the bugs get worked out. Look at the process of Debian Sid --> Debian Testing --> Debian Stable. | Sep 20 06:45 |
zlg | not like in the doco "code rush" days, were foss were actually trying to ship with zero bugs. | Sep 20 06:46 |
Will | Even I sometimes think the 6 month window that several distros have settled on might be a little too frequent. Still, name any Windows or OSX release that has shipped with zero bugs. | Sep 20 06:47 |
zlg | not zero fair enough , but 40,000 !!! is a bit much | Sep 20 06:48 |
Will | where did that number come from? | Sep 20 06:48 |
zlg | ubuntu bug traker | Sep 20 06:49 |
Will | and does it count only the core OS, or does it include extra applications as well? | Sep 20 06:49 |
zlg | it's for Ubuntu GNU/Linux | Sep 20 06:49 |
Will | Because if it counts things like Gimp, Firefox, Thunderbird, Inkscape, etc, then it isn't a fair comparison. | Sep 20 06:49 |
*sebsebseb (n=sebastia@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 06:49 | |
Will | check again or provide a link so we can verify | Sep 20 06:50 |
zlg | ie, Office and so on are included in MS's bugs and faults | Sep 20 06:50 |
Will | Because they are MS products. Is every concievable third party Windows app included? | Sep 20 06:50 |
Will | Because MS has been known to play that counting game before | Sep 20 06:51 |
ziggyfish_ | yes, but can you give me the exact some of _known_bugs in MS | Sep 20 06:51 |
zlg | sorry I was a bit off with my 40,000 bugs, I should have been more concise | Sep 20 06:51 |
zlg | it's actually Open 62889 over 60,000 now, and growing faster than shrinking | Sep 20 06:52 |
Will | well, the number of open source apps total is probably growing too. | Sep 20 06:52 |
zlg | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu | Sep 20 06:52 |
Will | ok, and here's an example of one of the latest ones: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0/+bug/433372 | Sep 20 06:53 |
Will | that's a Firefox bug, not an ubuntu bug | Sep 20 06:53 |
Will | to be very specific, it might be a bug in the Ubuntu package of Firefox. | Sep 20 06:54 |
zlg | look at the 30 critical, most are kernel issues. | Sep 20 06:54 |
ziggyfish_ | 1273 | Sep 20 06:54 |
Will | I'll check that in a minute, but with the rapidfire pace of Linux kernel development, I wouldn't be surprised if bugs open and close on it all the time. | Sep 20 06:55 |
Will | on the dev branch | Sep 20 06:55 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, there are zero that are confirmed, critical and ubuntu 9.04, and are not package specific | Sep 20 06:56 |
zlg | im looking at the list now, and wondering if the word "CONFIRMED" next to most of them would tend to put your case into question. | Sep 20 06:57 |
zlg | kernel bugs are generally not package specific | Sep 20 06:57 |
Will | zlg: re-read what ziggyfish just said, then explain to me where I'm not getting it | Sep 20 06:57 |
zlg | they are kernel specific, ipso fatso, "kernel bugs". | Sep 20 06:57 |
Will | Last I checked, things like adobe acrobat, openoffice, hp printer drivers, and drupal aren't the Linux kernel. | Sep 20 06:58 |
ziggyfish_ | I like this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 | Sep 20 06:59 |
Will | ziggyfish: It is by far the most severe and troublesome. | Sep 20 06:59 |
Will | and persistent | Sep 20 06:59 |
zlg | and SIGSEGV is not a kernel function ? | Sep 20 06:59 |
ziggyfish_ | zlg, url = ? | Sep 20 07:00 |
Will | zlg: adobe acrobat bug. Not kernel bug | Sep 20 07:00 |
zlg | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?search=Search&field.importance=Critical&field.status=New&field.status=Incomplete&field.status=Confirmed&field.status=Triaged&field.status=In+Progress&field.status=Fix+Committed | Sep 20 07:01 |
zlg | SIGSEGV is a kernal droping it's bundle trying to cope with adobe app, it's a kernel bug. | Sep 20 07:01 |
Will | and of course, adobe's stuff being closed source, there isn't much Ubuntu devs can do to fix the problems if Adobe's stuff is subpar | Sep 20 07:01 |
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 07:02 | |
ziggyfish_ | SIGSEGV is the signal sent to a process when it makes an invalid memory reference, or segmentation faul | Sep 20 07:02 |
Will | zlg: did you read it? Then tell me, what is crashing: acrobat, or the kernel? | Sep 20 07:02 |
ziggyfish_ | this means the program is trying to access memory that is not it's own (like null pointer) | Sep 20 07:03 |
zlg | I can tell you im quite sure the OS is responsible for segmentation error handling and not the Application. | Sep 20 07:03 |
zlg | see programms dont access memory, they communicate with the Operating System.. | Sep 20 07:04 |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 07:04 | |
zlg | The Operating System is responsible for Operating THE SYSTEM". | Sep 20 07:04 |
zlg | Go figue !!! :) | Sep 20 07:04 |
Will | "In both cases, the acroread process dies and if there were other tabs with acroread in them, they are also affected." | Sep 20 07:04 |
ziggyfish_ | run the following program on any system, and tell me it is the OS | Sep 20 07:05 |
ziggyfish_ | int main(){ | Sep 20 07:05 |
ziggyfish_ | int *a = (int*)0; | Sep 20 07:05 |
ziggyfish_ | *a = 0; | Sep 20 07:05 |
ziggyfish_ | } | Sep 20 07:05 |
Will | or this: | Sep 20 07:06 |
Will | %0|%0 | Sep 20 07:06 |
zlg | what if you run that code on a computer with NO OS ? | Sep 20 07:07 |
ziggyfish_ | Will did your operating system crash when you ran it? | Sep 20 07:07 |
zlg | what's you point ? | Sep 20 07:07 |
Will | zlg: computer with NO OS running code......... ? | Sep 20 07:07 |
zlg | I would hope not, but I have not tried too, | Sep 20 07:07 |
ziggyfish_ | my point is that the OS did handle it, but because it's a application error, it displayed a nice error for me | Sep 20 07:07 |
zlg | Will that surprises you ? | Sep 20 07:07 |
ziggyfish_ | rather than the whole system crashing | Sep 20 07:08 |
Will | no, just that it sounds like a really primative machine | Sep 20 07:08 |
zlg | ok, im surprised you think the existance of an OS equates to sophisication | Sep 20 07:09 |
ziggyfish_ | like windows 98 did | Sep 20 07:09 |
*ziggyfish_ remembers the BSoD | Sep 20 07:10 | |
Will | primative might be the wrong word, but even tiny things often have some simple embedded os usually these days, right? | Sep 20 07:10 |
zlg | you need a good memory for that ziggy agreed. I remeber them too, but awile ago, LOOOG wile | Sep 20 07:10 |
ziggyfish_ | Will, android? | Sep 20 07:10 |
Will | virtual machine | Sep 20 07:10 |
Will | right? | Sep 20 07:11 |
zlg | usually, they have some for of bootstrap loader as minimum yes | Sep 20 07:11 |
cubezzz | haha, he's a microsoft user | Sep 20 07:11 |
zlg | but a bootstrap loader does not an OS make. | Sep 20 07:11 |
Will | although I did do a little assembly programing a long time ago | Sep 20 07:11 |
Will | no os there, just register manipulation | Sep 20 07:11 |
zlg | thats right, even using assembler you can get a "bootstrap OS" that have basic I/O allowing you to write to the onboard memory. | Sep 20 07:12 |
Will | cubezzz : I didn't get that last post | Sep 20 07:12 |
cubezzz | he's just trolling | Sep 20 07:13 |
zlg | it might even have a simple assembly compiler on it for you. | Sep 20 07:13 |
Will | cubezz: I gathered that a while ago | Sep 20 07:13 |
ziggyfish_ | Will, I have done some OS development, and know that the processor it self, produces this interrupt, when a program is accessing memory it shouldn't (that's why it's called 'protected mode') | Sep 20 07:13 |
Will | ziggyfish: I've not really done any OS dev | Sep 20 07:14 |
ziggyfish_ | if the OS doesn't handle it, then the processor simple restarts (or faults again which also the OS ddin't handle) | Sep 20 07:14 |
Will | convenient how we just slid right out of that "kernel bug" argument like that. | Sep 20 07:14 |
zlg | any more to add ? | Sep 20 07:15 |
ziggyfish_ | Will, if you get some time and you want to do some OS dev, here's a link you may need http://forum.osdev.org/ | Sep 20 07:15 |
Will | well, not until we find an actual bug in the kernel itself. | Sep 20 07:15 |
ziggyfish_ | lol | Sep 20 07:15 |
zlg | 47768 Mount Root Files System Failed sleep well tonight. | Sep 20 07:16 |
ziggyfish_ | mm, interesting, that is a hardware issue. | Sep 20 07:17 |
zlg | are you now going to tell me the filesystem is not in the kernel ? | Sep 20 07:17 |
zlg | LOL | Sep 20 07:17 |
zlg | wow, masters of the BUCK PASS., | Sep 20 07:17 |
zlg | they call you teflon will ? | Sep 20 07:17 |
*cubezzz has kicked zlg from #boycottnovell (cubezzz) | Sep 20 07:18 | |
cubezzz | sorry, I had to do it | Sep 20 07:18 |
Will | cubezzz: watching him grasp for straws so desperately was starting to get old anyway. | Sep 20 07:19 |
ziggyfish_ | lol, that's alright, was getting bored anyway, now time to play a game (the only thing that Linux doesn't have YET) | Sep 20 07:19 |
cubezzz | yeah Linux sucks and it's full of bugs :) | Sep 20 07:19 |
Will | good debate and pointing out legit flaws is good, but I kept getting the sense that he was being deliberately obtuse just to try to find a chink somewhere. | Sep 20 07:20 |
cubezzz | he just wanted to argue | Sep 20 07:20 |
cubezzz | I could say white and he would immediately say black | Sep 20 07:20 |
*mib_3425 (n=cheese@121.218.0.42) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 07:20 | |
Will | troll protip: If you are going to nitpick, at least pick the right nits. | Sep 20 07:21 |
ziggyfish_ | anyway I think I learnt something today | Sep 20 07:21 |
Will | don't pull up an Adobe bug and say it is a kernel bug | Sep 20 07:21 |
*Omar87 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 07:21 | |
ziggyfish_ | what a SCADA system is | Sep 20 07:21 |
*ziggyfish_ has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 07:22 | |
mib_3425 | or dont say anything where that someone might not agree with. or you'll be censored. | Sep 20 07:22 |
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 07:22 | |
Will | mib_3425: I think there's a difference between having a differing opinion and just trying to stir up <redacted> | Sep 20 07:23 |
mib_3425 | yes, there is, it depends on what side has the power, who wins, not really what freedom is IMHO. | Sep 20 07:24 |
mib_3425 | and a site called "boycottnovell" is not about stiring up trouble I assume :) | Sep 20 07:25 |
Will | mid_3425: well, in any case, kicking him wasn't my call. Besides, if that wasn't trolling, then what would you call it? | Sep 20 07:26 |
mib_3425 | an alternative opinion, AND something that the power "man" did not agree with, | Sep 20 07:26 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 07:27 | |
ziggyfish | back | Sep 20 07:27 |
Will | ziggyfish: mib_3425 thinks that cubezzz was unfair to zlg | Sep 20 07:28 |
mib_3425 | no, I just think he's very biased, and uses his power to get his way. as opposed to entering into a discussion about it. | Sep 20 07:28 |
mib_3425 | I just dont have a very high opinion of people who do that. | Sep 20 07:29 |
ziggyfish | Will, how can he, he wasn't on when zlg was on | Sep 20 07:29 |
wallclimber | I think it's quite possible that mib_3425, zlg, and the old mutex are all the same person... | Sep 20 07:30 |
Will | that is of course a possibility | Sep 20 07:31 |
Will | mib_3425: what it looked like to me was that the discussion had devolved down to zlg going through the Ubuntu bug list trying to make a case that the Linux kernel had tons of bugs | Sep 20 07:32 |
Will | of course, he started by trying to count all the extra applications in there too | Sep 20 07:32 |
mib_3425 | so is this mutex someone who you did not agree with too, (sorry I just find that type of witch hunt morally corrupt). | Sep 20 07:32 |
cubezzz | I don't even know mutex :) | Sep 20 07:32 |
*ziggyfish can here some digging | Sep 20 07:32 | |
wallclimber | ask roy about him | Sep 20 07:33 |
mib_3425 | I picked bug no.2, hardly going down the list, considering bug no.1 !! | Sep 20 07:33 |
ziggyfish | Will, see | Sep 20 07:33 |
Will | ziggyfish: beat me to it | Sep 20 07:33 |
mib_3425 | my bad for picking the second bug, and it being a kernel bug. sorry. | Sep 20 07:33 |
mib_3425 | next time ill be more biased for you if you like. | Sep 20 07:33 |
cubezzz | just be civil | Sep 20 07:33 |
*_Hicham_ doesn't agree with kicking zlg | Sep 20 07:33 | |
ziggyfish | anyway, as I said before I'm over aguing with the troll | Sep 20 07:34 |
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 07:34 | |
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...") | Sep 20 07:34 | |
Will | ok zlg: here's the thing. Lets say there are a few bugs in the Linux kernel. It's possible, I guess. So what does that prove? | Sep 20 07:34 |
_Hicham_ | cubezzz : we are in a free speech channel | Sep 20 07:34 |
_Hicham_ | kicking people is bad for the channel | Sep 20 07:35 |
Will | come to think of it, I probably should have said something about that. | Sep 20 07:35 |
mib_3425 | will, tell the truth I forget :) | Sep 20 07:36 |
Will | cubezzz: let zlg back in as his name. | Sep 20 07:36 |
*mib_3425 is now known as zilog | Sep 20 07:37 | |
Will | zlg: I did tell the truth. Watching you grasp for straws was getting old, but kicking you wasn't my decision | Sep 20 07:37 |
zilog | what straws ? I went to the Ubuntu bug tracker and picked the second bug on the critical list and stated it. | Sep 20 07:38 |
_Hicham_ | zilog : that doesn't prove anything | Sep 20 07:38 |
zilog | I think the person who tried to say it was a hardware fault, and kicked me was grasping, | Sep 20 07:38 |
_Hicham_ | not necessarily a hardware fault | Sep 20 07:39 |
Will | besides zilog, if you were kicked and I assumed you had left, then what could I do about it after the fact anyway? | Sep 20 07:39 |
zilog | if you remember the talk was about being "confirmed" I said they were, and as they are "confirmed" and "kernel" I can say they are "confirmed Kernel" bugs. Sorry it's NOT me, it's the Ubuntu web site, fight it out with them. | Sep 20 07:40 |
Will | zilog, actually you went to that adobe bug first. | Sep 20 07:40 |
zilog | Yes, you mean the SIGSEGV bug with ? | Sep 20 07:40 |
Will | anyway, I gotta go for now. Have fun all. | Sep 20 07:40 |
Will | yes, that one | Sep 20 07:40 |
Will | gotta run | Sep 20 07:40 |
Will | the one where adobe is crashing and passing a signal to the OS | Sep 20 07:41 |
zilog | if that was the case it would be called a Adobe bug, not a Ubuntu bug, it means that on UBUNTU, but not other linux's this bug occures. | Sep 20 07:42 |
Will | it is a bug in the ubuntu package of adobe. Maybe someone else here can explain it to you. | Sep 20 07:43 |
Will | but even so, it isn't a kernel bug | Sep 20 07:43 |
zilog | It is still a kernel bug, news flash software apps crash all the time, bu the kernel is supposed to be able to deal with it, in this case it cannot properly deal with it, therefore its a bug in the kernal in it's inability to do what OS's do and catch such bugs. | Sep 20 07:44 |
zilog | Comp Sci 101 | Sep 20 07:44 |
Will | ok, let's say it has been a long day. As I think I said earlier OS development isn't my background. If I'm wrong, what exactly is the point you are getting at? | Sep 20 07:48 |
zilog | well, if i had not of been mindlessly kicked I could have scrolled back and told you. But i expect it was something to do with accepting that Linux and the kernel are * NOT * perfect, if you thihnk it is perfect, and everthing is someone elses fault, how do you expect to confront and fix issues when and if they do occur. | Sep 20 07:50 |
Will | Umm... when did I state that Linux was perfect? | Sep 20 07:51 |
zilog | you did not, but the reaction I received when I indicated that the kernel may not be "PERFECT" seemed quite telling. | Sep 20 07:51 |
_Hicham_ | kernel is not perfect | Sep 20 07:52 |
_Hicham_ | no OS is perfect | Sep 20 07:52 |
Will | eh. Can't speak for others. I don't claim that it is perfect. I do think it is a high quality system and possibly the best all the other not perfect choices out there, IMO. | Sep 20 07:53 |
zilog | do why would me simply stating one aspect of this imperfection bring such a reaction against me ? | Sep 20 07:54 |
zilog | do *so | Sep 20 07:54 |
Will | And if I was mistaken the whole time about those bugs, it wasn't because I was blindly trying to preserve Linux's perfection, just that I didn't understand the situation well enough. I like people pointing flaws in Linux with _constructive_ criticism. I just don't like baseless FUD. | Sep 20 07:55 |
zilog | which I provided a link for you or anyone to confirm what I am saying, as *NOT* FUD. | Sep 20 07:56 |
Will | so if I was wrong about all that, then I apologize. | Sep 20 07:56 |
Will | zilog: Yes, and from the looks of things, I didn't get it. I probably misunderstood. | Sep 20 07:57 |
zilog | no need to apologise well to me anything, I dont deserve it :) | Sep 20 07:57 |
Will | zilog: about what you said earlier: there are so-called zealots for every OS. | Sep 20 08:00 |
zilog | there are also moderates, and agnostics, which is where I put myself. | Sep 20 08:01 |
Will | but if Linux people in particular are a bit touchy, it's not like they haven't been given cause to be. Quite often. | Sep 20 08:01 |
Will | and there are also people that don't like seeing corruption and greed trump concern for people and society as a whole. | Sep 20 08:02 |
zilog | yes, but both sides are certainly guilty of that one, im sure a Novell employee might be a "bit touchy" about this place too. | Sep 20 08:02 |
zilog | Will, best you dont look at the US Sub-prime market too closely then :) | Sep 20 08:04 |
Will | I said don't like seeing it. Of course it happens. This world isn't perfect either. | Sep 20 08:05 |
*sebsebseb has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 08:05 | |
schestowitz | mutx, stop nymshifting | Sep 20 08:05 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : are u sure he is mutex ? | Sep 20 08:05 |
Will | well, gotta go. can't stay here all day. | Sep 20 08:05 |
*Will has quit ("Page closed") | Sep 20 08:06 | |
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 08:06 | |
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 08:09 | |
schestowitz | _hyes | Sep 20 08:12 |
schestowitz | He used this nym before | Sep 20 08:12 |
cubezzz | what is the deal with mutex? | Sep 20 08:12 |
zilog | yes, was wondering that myself ! | Sep 20 08:13 |
*PeterKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 09:01 | |
*PeterKraus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 09:01 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Found Guilty of Breaking #Korean Law for Second Time This Year http://bit.ly/bTf3q | Sep 20 09:11 | |
schestowitz | http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/09/17/acorn_hysteria/index.html | Sep 20 09:12 |
schestowitz | "As previously documented, Goldman Sachs itself has a virtual lock on the top Treasury positions no matter which party is in power. The vaunted bipartisan "Baucus plan" was literally written by a Baucus aide who just left her position as Vice President of Wellpoint to write the health care reform plan for the Senate -- a revelation which barely caused a ripple." | Sep 20 09:12 |
schestowitz | "So with this massive pillaging of America's economic security and the control of American government by its richest and most powerful factions growing by the day, to whom is America's intense economic anxiety being directed?" | Sep 20 09:13 |
schestowitz | http://www.zerohedge.com/article/what-goldman-alum-eric-mindichs-role-chair-asset-managers-committee-presidents-working-group | Sep 20 09:13 |
schestowitz | "Yet with recent scrutiny of latent Goldman interests in virtually every segment of the executive branch, Zero Hedge does find it oddly convenient, that in those dark (for Goldman Sachs) days, the two key people making capital markets related decisions were yet another two Goldman Sachs alumni: Hank Paulson and Eric Mindich." | Sep 20 09:13 |
*bogdan (i=bc193f26@gateway/web/freenode/x-tfxvuaursjnprwxg) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 09:16 | |
bogdan | Hello | Sep 20 09:17 |
bogdan | Is anyone up this early? | Sep 20 09:17 |
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 09:18 | |
bogdan | Did anyone else stumble over the problem of banishing the microsoft.com DNS name? | Sep 20 09:21 |
schestowitz | Hey | Sep 20 09:30 |
schestowitz | Any report on it? I didn't hear about it. | Sep 20 09:30 |
bogdan | Hey, is that you Roy? | Sep 20 09:31 |
bogdan | I'm trying to redirect microsoft.com to 127.0.0.1 to ban any Windows Updates on my box | Sep 20 09:32 |
bogdan | but the system always seems able to resolve the domain to an actual Microsoft IP address | Sep 20 09:32 |
cubezzz | http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/54de433e/286e26d5 | Sep 20 09:33 |
ThistleWeb | bogdan: why not just disable automatic windows updates? | Sep 20 09:33 |
ThistleWeb | given how MS abuse the updates system, it's a wise move anyway | Sep 20 09:33 |
bogdan | I did, just that I'm a bit paranoid | Sep 20 09:34 |
ThistleWeb | then you can pick and choose which updates to accept | Sep 20 09:34 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: it would not work | Sep 20 09:34 |
ThistleWeb | if you're paranoid, windows is not the OS you should be running, they always own it | Sep 20 09:35 |
schestowitz | Microsoft ignores these settings | Sep 20 09:35 |
bogdan | I could make this redirect on my router, but now that I discovered this I gained interest in understanding it . | Sep 20 09:35 |
cubezzz | I was just about to say... :) | Sep 20 09:35 |
schestowitz | It was shown before. Microsoft ignores those tickboxes and overrides them | Sep 20 09:35 |
schestowitz | bogdan: why not run Wine? | Sep 20 09:35 |
ThistleWeb | if it's not exploits due to bad coding, they'll have backdoors | Sep 20 09:35 |
bogdan | Oh, I'm using Linux bigtime, this is just a temporary setup for my dad (1-2 days) | Sep 20 09:36 |
ThistleWeb | for a couple of days, a manual update should be fine | Sep 20 09:36 |
bogdan | Now that I found this bypassing I was hoping I could help discover a Microsft nasty trick. | Sep 20 09:37 |
ThistleWeb | MS don't update that often | Sep 20 09:37 |
bogdan | Such as a backdoor or smth. | Sep 20 09:38 |
ThistleWeb | really the best you can do, is set the updates to either download but let you choose, or dont download, just inform | Sep 20 09:38 |
ThistleWeb | that way whenthe balloon pops up you can select manual (I think) and look through what it's giving you, in the usual MS knowledgebase code | Sep 20 09:38 |
ThistleWeb | anything you dont like, like the WGA or OGA, untick it, then tell it to always ignore the stuff you chose to ignore | Sep 20 09:39 |
ThistleWeb | patch tuesday is every month? or every 2 weeks? I cant remember | Sep 20 09:40 |
bogdan | Yeah, but that doesn't kill M$ | Sep 20 09:40 |
schestowitz | ThistleWeb: first Tuesday | Sep 20 09:40 |
schestowitz | I never had that experience | Sep 20 09:40 |
ThistleWeb | bogdan: only switching away from windows will do that | Sep 20 09:40 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How the #GatesFoundation Privatises #Africa http://bit.ly/4p6i7u (HT @Scientes ) | Sep 20 09:40 | |
schestowitz | I never used a Windows with a real update mechanism | Sep 20 09:40 |
schestowitz | Windows was initially not made to be patched over the network | Sep 20 09:41 |
ThistleWeb | all you can do with windows is minimize the control they have over your pc | Sep 20 09:41 |
schestowitz | This is why WinNuke*.exe was made to work for so, so long | Sep 20 09:41 |
ThistleWeb | so that's once per month | Sep 20 09:41 |
bogdan | ThistleWeb: Correction: only by giving others reasons to switch they will loose their unfair competition practices. | Sep 20 09:41 |
ThistleWeb | which means after you update it, it'll be a decent chunk of time before another is due | Sep 20 09:41 |
ThistleWeb | reasons like "having control over your PC" for example | Sep 20 09:42 |
bogdan | But yeah, I'll move from windows back to my safe Ubuntu realm (with no mono...) | Sep 20 09:42 |
ThistleWeb | I'm saying, all you can do is lock down your dad's windows to a point, not totally | Sep 20 09:43 |
ThistleWeb | you could go to insane lengths to really lock it down, but even then you dont know the way MS ignore stuff | Sep 20 09:44 |
ThistleWeb | if it's only for a few days, it'll be fine | Sep 20 09:44 |
ThistleWeb | make sure the firewall is enabled on dialout, and you have an up-to-date antivirus and anti-spyware, turn off automatic updates | Sep 20 09:45 |
ThistleWeb | the rest is OTT for a few days | Sep 20 09:45 |
bogdan | Yeah, actually I'm working on much better way to eat up their market share - by embedding more freedom in the world | Sep 20 09:45 |
schestowitz | bogdan: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/21/cipav-and-microsoft-windows/ | Sep 20 09:47 |
bogdan | Oh well, if Gov uses it - I forgot about that article - there is no chance of making M$ to stop using it. | Sep 20 09:49 |
bogdan | Thanks Roy for reminding me that. | Sep 20 09:49 |
*bogdan has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 20 09:49 | |
cubezzz | hmmm that's interesting | Sep 20 09:50 |
cubezzz | the one I heard about was The NSA | Sep 20 09:51 |
cubezzz | access system is built into every version of the Windows operating system now in use, | Sep 20 09:51 |
cubezzz | except early releases of Windows 95 (and its predecessors). | Sep 20 09:51 |
cubezzz | but that's old news | Sep 20 09:51 |
*bogdanRAnd0Mchar (i=bc193f26@gateway/web/freenode/x-nqohnllmqgcvhkqh) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 09:51 | |
bogdanRAnd0Mchar | @schestowitz: Roy, I was always wondering - how is it to keep up this website? | Sep 20 09:53 |
_goblin | Morning all... | Sep 20 09:54 |
bogdanRAnd0Mchar | Don't you ever get tired of watching over M$ shenanigans? | Sep 20 09:54 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I have been told there will be lots of bug fixes to gwibber landing in the morning in karmic. Fingers crossed :) | Sep 20 09:54 | |
_goblin | who me? | Sep 20 09:55 |
_goblin | obviously not then.... | Sep 20 09:57 |
cubezzz | MIcrosoft Word was original released on Xenix | Sep 20 09:58 |
cubezzz | Microsoft filed an emergency motion in which they asked for a stay of the injunction ruling. The motion was granted on September 4, 2009 | Sep 20 09:59 |
bogdanRAnd0Mchar | Yeah all software developers are equal, except the ones that aren't. | Sep 20 10:01 |
*bogdanRAnd0Mchar is now known as bogdanbiv | Sep 20 10:02 | |
*bogdanbiv has quit ("Page closed") | Sep 20 10:03 | |
_goblin | bye then... | Sep 20 10:03 |
cubezzz | hmmm, what's with the morphing nick I wonder | Sep 20 10:04 |
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.80.116.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 10:07 | |
_goblin | time waster IMHO | Sep 20 10:08 |
_goblin | Ive been meaning to say to Roy that I don't think the IRC logs should be published...you get the COLA trolls reading and quoting out of context and they can hide behind the fact that they don't even need to enter the room. | Sep 20 10:09 |
_goblin | If they want to "monitor" let them come here and do so in real time...why should it be easy for them to misquote and lie? | Sep 20 10:10 |
*ziggyfish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 10:11 | |
_goblin | oh, before I forget....Hi Moshe Goldfarb (that COLA wintroll will be reading this log when Roy publishes it) | Sep 20 10:11 |
Diablo-D3 | that cant be a real name | Sep 20 10:17 |
schestowitz | It's not | Sep 20 10:22 |
schestowitz | The real name is Gary Stewart | Sep 20 10:22 |
schestowitz | Serial slanderer, admitted thief, racist, etc. | Sep 20 10:22 |
Diablo-D3 | gary stewart doesnt even sound like a real name | Sep 20 10:24 |
Diablo-D3 | someone with a name like that sounds like a gay guy with black ancestry hiding out as a white supremacist | Sep 20 10:24 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Secretary #RobertGates Honours #BillGates, #Microsoft May Manage #Stimulus Funds http://bit.ly/4OYDl | Sep 20 10:31 | |
*lis` (n=lis@pub082136122103.dh-hfc.datazug.ch) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 11:12 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Admitted #UNIX is Better Than #Windows Even 9 Years Ago, Finally Kills Windows Server 2000 http://bit.ly/195qNe | Sep 20 11:22 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Dumping in #SXSW , #Barnardos , and #Samsung http://ping.fm/PcQbg | Sep 20 11:23 | |
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 20 11:36 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Lazy Sunday. Making roast dinner for lunch. | Sep 20 11:37 | |
*ziggyfish has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 11:48 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Zune and #WindowsMobile Fail at Rebirth http://ping.fm/IVI01 | Sep 20 11:51 | |
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat") | Sep 20 11:53 | |
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 12:15 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] More #Antitrust Pressure for #Yahoo #Microsoft, #Google Blocked by #USDOJ http://ping.fm/tekOF | Sep 20 12:30 | |
trmanco | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB6ywgF990s&NR=1 | Sep 20 13:18 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell , #Microsoft , and the “Microsoft Hater” #Daemonisation Label http://ping.fm/lIyXP | Sep 20 13:20 | |
trmanco | gmane is b0rked | Sep 20 13:33 |
trmanco | http://imgur.com/NR0tA.png | Sep 20 13:37 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Very Large US #Bank Finds Out That #Sharepoint Fails, But Still Fails to Understand Freedom http://ping.fm/tgWws | Sep 20 14:10 | |
fewa | http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/ | Sep 20 14:38 |
fewa | "Too Good to be True?" | Sep 20 14:38 |
fewa | Thats an attack on free and open source software | Sep 20 14:38 |
fewa | When copies are free, except due to the monopolies given by congress | Sep 20 14:39 |
fewa | or copyright law in other countries | Sep 20 14:39 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Microsoft / #ISO Took More Control of #ODF http://ping.fm/VerSw | Sep 20 14:40 | |
trmanco | http://blog.nihilogic.dk/2008/04/super-mario-in-14kb-javascript.html | Sep 20 14:41 |
Diablo-D3 | http://devfiles.myopera.com/articles/650/step_4_enemies.htm | Sep 20 14:43 |
fewa | trmanco, the jumping speeds are not right | Sep 20 14:50 |
fewa | and distance | Sep 20 14:50 |
trmanco | it's still a little rough around the edges but it works | Sep 20 14:51 |
trmanco | the concept is there | Sep 20 14:51 |
fewa | what a waste of programmer time :P | Sep 20 14:55 |
*wallclimber (n=ozma@ip98-165-33-243.ph.ph.cox.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 14:55 | |
fewa | you die when you reach the end | Sep 20 14:55 |
fewa | the browser can do alot these days | Sep 20 14:56 |
fewa | look at the source http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/mario/mario.js | Sep 20 14:57 |
trmanco | yeah | Sep 20 14:59 |
trmanco | I already had a look :-P | Sep 20 14:59 |
fewa | pittty firefox and chromium cant play midi files | Sep 20 14:59 |
*zilog has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Sep 20 15:01 | |
*zilog (n=cheese@121.216.3.107) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 15:06 | |
oiaohm | The html5 tags could allow it. But playing midi files people would want sound fonts as well | Sep 20 15:09 |
fewa | hmm bee playing this for a while | Sep 20 15:12 |
fewa | seems the laping function was not implamented | Sep 20 15:12 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold bank accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create US ombudsman on banks http://ur1.ca/c0na | Sep 20 15:17 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Steve Ballmer: employee morale at Microsoft is job #1 http://is.gd/3uowA | Sep 20 15:18 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Hold banks accountable, audit #bailout fight back against business interests and create United States ombudsman on #banks http://ur1.ca/c0na | Sep 20 15:18 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] @davidgerard developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers developers http://ur1.ca/c0om | Sep 20 15:22 | |
*wallclimber has quit ("wallclimber wanders off...") | Sep 20 15:35 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're fucked. http://is.gd/3upZX | Sep 20 15:37 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 15:45 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard:c Publishers were never in the "content" business, but the "paper" business. That's why they're screwed. http://is.gd/3u ... | Sep 20 15:47 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] there is nothing about katie price that isn't made of 100% class http://is.gd/3ur7s | Sep 20 15:51 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT @davidgerard: Publishers don't create value. http://is.gd/3upZX "Content is information you don't need." | Sep 20 15:55 | |
DaemonFC | http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/21/us/21terror.html | Sep 20 16:01 |
DaemonFC | 3 terrorists bagged in Colorado | Sep 20 16:01 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Compares Its Monopoly to the Older #Telephone #Monopoly http://ping.fm/QDfCH | Sep 20 16:02 | |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, AT&T was worse if you can believe it | Sep 20 16:03 |
DaemonFC | they not only had a monopoly on computer software, but almost all telecommunications as well | Sep 20 16:03 |
fewa | DaemonFC, where is the crime? | Sep 20 16:03 |
fewa | and where is the evidence? | Sep 20 16:03 |
amarsh04 | "we don't have to care, we're the phone company" | Sep 20 16:04 |
DaemonFC | fewa, so far they have conspiracy charges, lying to a federal officer, and the plans for the bombs on the guys laptop | Sep 20 16:04 |
fewa | almost the entire article is besides the point | Sep 20 16:04 |
DaemonFC | so that alone could get them sent away for quite some time | Sep 20 16:04 |
DaemonFC | you're probably talking 20-25 years just on what the government has so far | Sep 20 16:04 |
fewa | DaemonFC, who as the person hurt, and what information is it based upon? | Sep 20 16:04 |
DaemonFC | fewa, They stopped them before they could kill innocent people | Sep 20 16:05 |
DaemonFC | that's what they're paid to do | Sep 20 16:05 |
fewa | DaemonFC, once again, I challenge you to find the evidence supporting these charges | Sep 20 16:05 |
DaemonFC | fewa, Well, with any luck, they'll be getting nightly aqss rapings from Bubba for the next 25 years or more | Sep 20 16:05 |
fewa | the NY Times does not post federal court numbers so there is no way to verify what they are saying | Sep 20 16:05 |
DaemonFC | *ass | Sep 20 16:06 |
fewa | and the entire article is full of heresay | Sep 20 16:06 |
DaemonFC | well, we probably won't know most of what the government has on them til it's actually in court | Sep 20 16:06 |
DaemonFC | but I'm glad they stopped them | Sep 20 16:06 |
fewa | DaemonFC, stopped who? | Sep 20 16:07 |
DaemonFC | the muslims | Sep 20 16:07 |
DaemonFC | they can't be trusted | Sep 20 16:07 |
fewa | again you miss the fact that you can't hold somebody without having a reason | Sep 20 16:07 |
DaemonFC | must keep an eye on them at all times | Sep 20 16:07 |
DaemonFC | fewa, They have charges or they wouldn't have arrested them | Sep 20 16:08 |
DaemonFC | we'll find out what the bastards were up to in the fullness of time | Sep 20 16:08 |
fewa | DaemonFC, but you said the charges where "lying to a federal officer" | Sep 20 16:09 |
fewa | that seems like he was just defending himself | Sep 20 16:09 |
fewa | not telling them what they wanted to hear | Sep 20 16:09 |
DaemonFC | I doubt the feds would have moved in unless they already had a solid case or unless the terrorists were close to carrying out their plans and they couldn't wait any longer to nab them | Sep 20 16:09 |
DaemonFC | either way, they're better off behind bars | Sep 20 16:09 |
fewa | DaemonFC, has you spend the last few years on a remote island? | Sep 20 16:10 |
DaemonFC | fewa, Obstruction of Justice | Sep 20 16:10 |
DaemonFC | Making false statements to a police officer | Sep 20 16:10 |
DaemonFC | Conspiracy to commit murder | Sep 20 16:10 |
fewa | DaemonFC, havn't you heard of the hundreds of people who have been flown to Guantanamo to be tortured? | Sep 20 16:10 |
DaemonFC | I don't believe it | Sep 20 16:10 |
DaemonFC | besides, I do know that the Muslims behead people | Sep 20 16:11 |
M$ also compared itself to Coke, which is a better analogy. | Sep 20 16:11 | |
DaemonFC | I haven't heard of us beheading any Muslims, fewa | Sep 20 16:11 |
fewa | DaemonFC, its done all the time | Sep 20 16:11 |
DaemonFC | when I do, I'll say we're the uncivilized savages | Sep 20 16:11 |
DaemonFC | so far, all the most cowardly/heinous things have been done by the Muslims | Sep 20 16:12 |
fewa | DaemonFC, | Sep 20 16:13 |
fewa | <DaemonFC> Conspiracy to commit murder | Sep 20 16:13 |
fewa | * http://www.democracynow.org/2009/7/31/exclusive_john_walker_lindhs_parents_discuss | Sep 20 16:13 |
DaemonFC | pouring some water on someone and beheading them are two different things | Sep 20 16:13 |
DaemonFC | we haven't beheaded the savages and mailed them the tape | Sep 20 16:13 |
fewa | DaemonFC, he was left in a storage crate in the freezing during night, 120 heat during day, no food, no water | Sep 20 16:13 |
fewa | left there to die | Sep 20 16:14 |
DaemonFC | bullshit | Sep 20 16:14 |
DaemonFC | Muslim propaganda | Sep 20 16:14 |
fewa | DaemonFC, there is a letter from Rumsfeld himself | Sep 20 16:14 |
fewa | to "take the gloves off" | Sep 20 16:14 |
DaemonFC | Democracy Now is a well known group of sympathizers, appeasers, and outright liars | Sep 20 16:15 |
fewa | DaemonFC, if you don't not have evidence, there is a no reason people will listen to you | Sep 20 16:15 |
DaemonFC | anyone who hates this country and is willing to lie about it gets an article on that site | Sep 20 16:15 |
fewa | DaemonFC, you are a bigot, a hater of all people differn't | Sep 20 16:15 |
fewa | <DaemonFC> the muslims | Sep 20 16:15 |
fewa | <DaemonFC> they can't be trusted | Sep 20 16:15 |
DaemonFC | fewa, Well, when they're convicted of their crimes | Sep 20 16:15 |
DaemonFC | you'll see | Sep 20 16:15 |
fewa | Its just hate | Sep 20 16:15 |
DaemonFC | it's also a crime to have the blueprints for the bomb that the Muslim terrorists were planningto set off | Sep 20 16:16 |
fewa | <DaemonFC> the muslims | Sep 20 16:16 |
fewa | <DaemonFC> they can't be trusted | Sep 20 16:16 |
DaemonFC | That may bring the sentence to 30 years or more | Sep 20 16:16 |
DaemonFC | fewa, I'll never trust them | Sep 20 16:16 |
LOL, another "white picket fence" story for "pawns" and one night stands -> "We must make it clear that what we do is for the benefit of the majority of ISVs and businesses, and thus for the country, and that it is in their interest to help us succeed. We must set this as our goal." | Sep 20 16:17 | |
DaemonFC | fewa, They're a bunch of sneaks and cowards | Sep 20 16:17 |
DaemonFC | what's to love? | Sep 20 16:17 |
The "minority" of ISVs must be those they decide to crush. | Sep 20 16:18 | |
DaemonFC | you want to die for Allah, get over here and I'll be happy to introduce you to him | Sep 20 16:18 |
predictions of bloat -> " a large software industry build on wide standards." | Sep 20 16:19 | |
DaemonFC | instead they go and murder women and children with bombs and shit | Sep 20 16:19 |
DaemonFC | fucking cowards | Sep 20 16:19 |
DaemonFC | that's what they are | Sep 20 16:19 |
fat bottom software makes the rocking world go down. | Sep 20 16:19 | |
DaemonFC | fewa, http://img84.yfrog.com/img84/1976/fwfwfvd.jpg | Sep 20 16:21 |
DaemonFC | there you go | Sep 20 16:21 |
DaemonFC | the detainee abuse fraud is put forth because it's the only defense they have | Sep 20 16:23 |
DaemonFC | they lie and say they were abused to try and take the focus off the fact that they are bad people who are there for a damned good reason | Sep 20 16:23 |
DaemonFC | and frankly, the only thing that shocks me about their interrogation is that anyone made a record of it to add an air of legitimacy to the so-called "abuse" claims | Sep 20 16:25 |
DaemonFC | errr, how about "that anyone was stupid enough to make a record of it and give an air of legitimacy to those claims" | Sep 20 16:26 |
DaemonFC | I don't care what they did, but they never should have written down that they did anything other than walk in there and ask them questions apparently | Sep 20 16:26 |
*_goblin (n=goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 16:27 | |
DaemonFC | if I was one of the interrogators, I would have dismissed the guard and all witnesses, and would not have written down anything I did beyond ask questions or whatever was appoved in the "field interrogation handbook" | Sep 20 16:28 |
_goblin | hello all | Sep 20 16:28 |
*schestowitz gives channel operator status to fewa | Sep 20 16:29 | |
schestowitz | Hey, _goblin | Sep 20 16:29 |
_goblin | hows thjngs? | Sep 20 16:29 |
_goblin | *things | Sep 20 16:29 |
schestowitz | Doing one last post, then leaving | Sep 20 16:29 |
schestowitz | I wrote a lot today | Sep 20 16:29 |
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 16:29 | |
_goblin | I see Ballmers payrise didn't represent the current climate..... | Sep 20 16:29 |
schestowitz | Over 10 posts, some long | Sep 20 16:30 |
DaemonFC | fudged records avoid red tape more often than not | Sep 20 16:30 |
schestowitz | _goblin: yes, I was just writing about Ballmer's wage | Sep 20 16:30 |
_goblin | and they say crime doesnt pay | Sep 20 16:30 |
schestowitz | :-) | Sep 20 16:30 |
DaemonFC | _goblin, This is one of those things that nobody cares about really anyway | Sep 20 16:30 |
schestowitz | The most criminal employees get paid the most | Sep 20 16:30 |
DaemonFC | just don't do it in the open or leave a paper trail and you'll be fine | Sep 20 16:30 |
DaemonFC | leave it to the government to mess that up | Sep 20 16:31 |
schestowitz | MEre peons and temps get thrown out to vut expenses | Sep 20 16:31 |
schestowitz | *cut | Sep 20 16:31 |
DaemonFC | I'd tell them that if they talked about anything that went on in there, that "There won't be a hearing, there won't be any paperwork, you'll have a heart attack in your cell one night and nobody will ever know any different" | Sep 20 16:32 |
it's easier to give yourself a bonus when you have just fired 5,000 employees and 5,000 perma-temps. | Sep 20 16:33 | |
DaemonFC | fewa, That's why you know this is bogus | Sep 20 16:34 |
DaemonFC | if the government was really willing to torture them, they'd be willing to clean up their mess before it was on CNN | Sep 20 16:34 |
at an average of $100,000 cost of each per year, Sweaty B just freed up a billion dollars for himself. | Sep 20 16:35 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Have I missed something or are people suggesting a penguin picture in #Microsoft #Windows is a reason to buy 7? LOL. Thats desperate! | Sep 20 16:35 | |
DaemonFC | if these were really show trials, I'd also suspect that their government appointed lawyer would never bring up the issue of so-called "torture" | Sep 20 16:36 |
he he, goblin. They want you to buy Windows 7 for the toilet bowl baby background. | Sep 20 16:36 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] talking of which, if by chance there are any Linux users who do want it..You can find it on the net anyway.Just google! #Microsoft #Windows | Sep 20 16:36 | |
DaemonFC | typically if a government was using propaganda to bury claims of wrong doing, you'd hear nothing but "They are being treated well, and humanely, unlike their thousands of victims" | Sep 20 16:37 |
DaemonFC | and nothing more | Sep 20 16:37 |
see here http://bayimg.com/tag/windows7 | Sep 20 16:38 | |
DaemonFC | "shot while trying to escape" is another good one | Sep 20 16:38 |
http://bayimg.com/pacgaaacK | Sep 20 16:38 | |
_goblin | LOL...Its a conversation between a few of the faithful, they are talking like a picture of a penguin is something special....maybe Ive missed something.... | Sep 20 16:38 |
other fun is http://bayimg.com/OAdcdaaCn | Sep 20 16:38 | |
*Tallken has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 16:38 | |
http://bayimg.com/OAcgpaaCk | Sep 20 16:39 | |
http://bayimg.com/kaLNPaaBP | Sep 20 16:39 | |
DaemonFC | "hung himself in his cell" | Sep 20 16:39 |
DaemonFC | tsk tsk | Sep 20 16:40 |
*Diablo-D3 has quit ("do coders dream of sheep()?") | Sep 20 16:40 | |
http://bayimg.com/AaLoHAABp | Sep 20 16:40 | |
*Xarver (n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 16:41 | |
there's been lots of trolling here lately. Must be the impending launch/failure of Windows 7 | Sep 20 16:41 | |
DaemonFC | according to Wikipedia, Windows 7 is already a runaway hit | Sep 20 16:42 |
DaemonFC | you should check your facts, Wikipedia is _always_ right | Sep 20 16:42 |
DaemonFC | and _never_ biased | Sep 20 16:42 |
DaemonFC | :P | Sep 20 16:42 |
Did I mention that my EEE PC box came with a "Linux" sticker put over the "Windows XP" print? | Sep 20 16:43 | |
DaemonFC | that's funny | Sep 20 16:43 |
DaemonFC | it's like getting hand me downs | Sep 20 16:43 |
That's a rather clear indicator that Asus was unable to sell the 701 as a Windows machine and had to reload them to get them out the door. | Sep 20 16:43 | |
DaemonFC | twitter, or that most of them come with Windows | Sep 20 16:44 |
DaemonFC | so that's what they etched into the case | Sep 20 16:44 |
not that stuffed shelves were not a good enough sign of that. | Sep 20 16:44 | |
bbl, there's lots of stuff to do today. | Sep 20 16:45 | |
DaemonFC | I doubt enough people care what it comes with as long as it behaves the same way as their other PCs | Sep 20 16:45 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up http://ping.fm/MDevt | Sep 20 16:45 | |
schestowitz | Gotta go now | Sep 20 16:46 |
schestowitz | I'll write about new Vista 7 briberies later | Sep 20 16:46 |
*DaemonFC has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 16:48 | |
_goblin | see ya later roy. | Sep 20 16:51 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] RT @schestowitz #Microsoft Profit is Down Sharply, But #Ballmer Profit is Up http://ping.fm/MDevt #Windows | Sep 20 16:53 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 17:04 | |
special mention. you are all just as safe as the good professor! http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4YnxcdZ5muc | Sep 20 17:07 | |
experts know what they are doing, move along | Sep 20 17:08 | |
DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument_format#Criticism | Sep 20 17:21 |
DaemonFC | heh | Sep 20 17:21 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, I'm trying to figure out this PPA of mine | Sep 20 17:38 |
DaemonFC | I had thought about providing AoTuv Vorbis encoders in Ubuntu packages | Sep 20 17:39 |
DaemonFC | since I don't see anyone else doing so | Sep 20 17:39 |
*Xarver has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 17:46 | |
*DaemonFC` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 17:50 | |
*DaemonFC`` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 17:56 | |
*twitter has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 17:58 | |
*DaemonFC` has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Sep 20 18:03 | |
*DaemonFC has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 18:08 | |
*fewa has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Sep 20 18:21 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 18:24 | |
*DaemonFC` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 18:28 | |
*DaemonFC`` has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Sep 20 18:31 | |
DaemonFC` | oh damn them | Sep 20 18:33 |
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 20 18:33 | |
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 20 18:33 | |
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.82.245) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 18:53 | |
_Hicham_ | Hi All! | Sep 20 18:54 |
DaemonFC | my fan club is back, yay | Sep 20 18:56 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : how many pills do u take per day ? | Sep 20 18:57 |
DaemonFC | including you? | Sep 20 18:57 |
_Hicham_ | you seem to be in a miserable state | Sep 20 18:58 |
_Hicham_ | go see a shrink | Sep 20 18:58 |
_Hicham_ | or are shrinks too expensive to afford there ? | Sep 20 18:58 |
_Hicham_ | I know u don't have a health insurance | Sep 20 18:59 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, You don't need health insurance to see a psychiatrist | Sep 20 18:59 |
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@93.102.42.56.rev.optimus.pt) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:00 | |
_Hicham_ | more than 40% in the US don't have health insurance | Sep 20 19:00 |
DaemonFC | so? | Sep 20 19:01 |
DaemonFC | most of the world starves or dies of AIDS | Sep 20 19:01 |
DaemonFC | that's another way to look at it | Sep 20 19:01 |
_Hicham_ | so the US is not that great at the social level | Sep 20 19:03 |
DaemonFC | there's a lot of people that hate America and just try to throw every accusation they can at us | Sep 20 19:03 |
DaemonFC | and see what sticks | Sep 20 19:03 |
_Hicham_ | everything sticks at America | Sep 20 19:03 |
DaemonFC | of course most of it really doesn't | Sep 20 19:03 |
DaemonFC | but they're bound determined to find any excuse | Sep 20 19:03 |
_Hicham_ | it does | Sep 20 19:04 |
DaemonFC | they use us as an excuse for their own failings | Sep 20 19:04 |
DaemonFC | it's sad really | Sep 20 19:04 |
_Hicham_ | America is full of bad people | Sep 20 19:04 |
DaemonFC | most of the world is full of far worse | Sep 20 19:04 |
_Hicham_ | worse people live in the US | Sep 20 19:04 |
_Hicham_ | instead of asylums | Sep 20 19:04 |
DaemonFC | about 1,000 miles to the south of me is a corrupt third world country where all the police are bought, the water has parasites, and organized crime rivals the military | Sep 20 19:05 |
DaemonFC | so I'm glad that I don't live there | Sep 20 19:05 |
DaemonFC | actually, most of Central America is like that | Sep 20 19:05 |
DaemonFC | then pretty much all of the African continent is worse | Sep 20 19:06 |
DaemonFC | I don't know why they even bother to draw the names of African nations on a map | Sep 20 19:06 |
_Hicham_ | and u r saying that the US is clean, no corruption, no bribes, just straight people ? | Sep 20 19:06 |
DaemonFC | the government gets overthrown every 6 months in most of them | Sep 20 19:06 |
_Hicham_ | like in the US | Sep 20 19:07 |
DaemonFC | I'm saying that the vast majority of the world has it far worse | Sep 20 19:07 |
DaemonFC | and it's their own fault | Sep 20 19:07 |
_Hicham_ | when they don't like a president, boom | Sep 20 19:07 |
_Hicham_ | and he is dead | Sep 20 19:07 |
DaemonFC | and the next one is jsut as bad | Sep 20 19:07 |
DaemonFC | and just as genocidal | Sep 20 19:07 |
DaemonFC | your point? | Sep 20 19:07 |
_Hicham_ | my point is : stop praising America | Sep 20 19:08 |
DaemonFC | take a look around sometime | Sep 20 19:08 |
_Hicham_ | it is not any better | Sep 20 19:08 |
DaemonFC | I'd much rather be here than in most places | Sep 20 19:08 |
_Hicham_ | Scandinavia is probably the cleanest place in the world | Sep 20 19:08 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Right, I'll just go ask my local warlord for some food | Sep 20 19:09 |
DaemonFC | I hope he's not too busy shooting his political enemies without trial | Sep 20 19:09 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 20 19:09 |
_Hicham_ | so, go to Scandinavia if u want a clean place | Sep 20 19:09 |
_Hicham_ | people get killed without any reason in the US | Sep 20 19:10 |
DaemonFC | not by the government | Sep 20 19:10 |
DaemonFC | they all get fair trials | Sep 20 19:10 |
DaemonFC | usually too lenient on them | Sep 20 19:10 |
_Hicham_ | fair trials ? | Sep 20 19:10 |
_Hicham_ | come on | Sep 20 19:10 |
DaemonFC | yeah | Sep 20 19:11 |
_Hicham_ | there is no fair trial in the US | Sep 20 19:11 |
_Hicham_ | everyone can be bribed | Sep 20 19:11 |
DaemonFC | if you're charged with a crime, there is a civilian jury | Sep 20 19:11 |
_Hicham_ | money = power | Sep 20 19:11 |
DaemonFC | you get a lawyer even if you can't afford one | Sep 20 19:11 |
DaemonFC | the burden is on the state to prove it | Sep 20 19:11 |
DaemonFC | you're presumed innocent | Sep 20 19:11 |
_Hicham_ | u can get a lawyer in most places of the world without paying | Sep 20 19:11 |
DaemonFC | China has show trials | Sep 20 19:12 |
DaemonFC | Iran has show trials | Sep 20 19:12 |
DaemonFC | Mexico has show trials | Sep 20 19:12 |
DaemonFC | we don't | Sep 20 19:12 |
_Hicham_ | u really good for a PR person | Sep 20 19:12 |
DaemonFC | in fact, it's so hard to get the death penalty in the United States that you practically have to kill 20 people in broad daylight in front of witnesses and skull fuck them | Sep 20 19:13 |
_Hicham_ | the next Dick Cheney | Sep 20 19:13 |
DaemonFC | and even then, probably not | Sep 20 19:13 |
DaemonFC | like I said, far too lenient | Sep 20 19:13 |
_Hicham_ | in the US, we have the most weird and violent ways in death penalty | Sep 20 19:13 |
_Hicham_ | gaz chamber | Sep 20 19:14 |
_Hicham_ | electric chair | Sep 20 19:14 |
DaemonFC | and even if you somehow manage to, you'll probably still die of old age because you have so many appeals | Sep 20 19:14 |
DaemonFC | so we really don't have a death sentence, unfortunately | Sep 20 19:14 |
DaemonFC | there is no state that uses the electric chair | Sep 20 19:14 |
_Hicham_ | go to Texas and do sthg bad babe | Sep 20 19:14 |
_Hicham_ | and u will see | Sep 20 19:14 |
DaemonFC | it's pretty much all lethal injection | Sep 20 19:14 |
DaemonFC | Utah gives you a choice of that or firing squad cause of all the Mormons | Sep 20 19:15 |
_Hicham_ | they will invent a death penalty way for u | Sep 20 19:15 |
_Hicham_ | and what do u prefer ? | Sep 20 19:15 |
_Hicham_ | lethal injection ? | Sep 20 19:15 |
DaemonFC | too lenient | Sep 20 19:15 |
DaemonFC | I prefer that they get to experience as much pain as they caused their victims | Sep 20 19:16 |
DaemonFC | but we're too merciful | Sep 20 19:16 |
_Hicham_ | the US too merciful ? | Sep 20 19:16 |
_Hicham_ | hahahahahahhaa | Sep 20 19:16 |
DaemonFC | I'd say give the family of the victim a baseball bat and leave the room | Sep 20 19:16 |
_Hicham_ | that is the best | Sep 20 19:16 |
_Hicham_ | and what have the Guantanamu people done ? | Sep 20 19:17 |
DaemonFC | heh, dump them in the sea | Sep 20 19:17 |
DaemonFC | fuck em, honestly | Sep 20 19:17 |
DaemonFC | I don't care | Sep 20 19:17 |
_Hicham_ | typical american behavior | Sep 20 19:18 |
DaemonFC | can't find a country that will take them | Sep 20 19:18 |
DaemonFC | but all of them tell us to let them go | Sep 20 19:18 |
DaemonFC | gee | Sep 20 19:18 |
DaemonFC | dump them off in Antarctica | Sep 20 19:18 |
*schestowitz listens to http://www.twit.tv/floss6 | Sep 20 19:19 | |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INebdHvAbEs | Sep 20 19:19 |
DaemonFC | You'd think that one country in the world would be merciful enough to take them since they "haven't done anything bad/wrong" | Sep 20 19:19 |
DaemonFC | wouldn't you? | Sep 20 19:19 |
DaemonFC | Norway or Sweden maybe? | Sep 20 19:20 |
DaemonFC | no? | Sep 20 19:20 |
_Hicham_ | why should they take them ? | Sep 20 19:21 |
DaemonFC | like most people, they pop their head out long enough to criticize but they know that they're full of shit when they say those people haven't done anything wrong and should be released | Sep 20 19:21 |
_Hicham_ | time to break fast | Sep 20 19:21 |
_Hicham_ | see ya later | Sep 20 19:21 |
*_Hicham_ has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 19:21 | |
DaemonFC | it's a tough sell even for politicians in Sweden I'm sure, to take in terrorists | Sep 20 19:22 |
DaemonFC | and repatriate them | Sep 20 19:22 |
*DaemonFC` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:23 | |
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 20 19:24 | |
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 20 19:24 | |
_goblin | Hi _Hitcham_ | Sep 20 19:25 |
_goblin | oh dear he's gone.. | Sep 20 19:25 |
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-173-59-65-139.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:26 | |
*twitter (n=willhill@199.79.112.38) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:29 | |
schestowitz | Anti-Obama AstroTurfing: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/republicans-internet-barack-obama | Sep 20 19:29 |
*DaemonFC` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:30 | |
I'm starting to conclude that people in Seattle prefer charcoal to coffee. | Sep 20 19:30 | |
*twitter misses New Orleans coffee | Sep 20 19:31 | |
*DaemonFC`` (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:42 | |
*DaemonFC has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Sep 20 19:42 | |
*DaemonFC`` is now known as DaemonFC | Sep 20 19:42 | |
*DaemonFC has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 19:42 | |
schestowitz | http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/windows_seven_sins_ngos/ | Sep 20 19:43 |
schestowitz | Clarke | Sep 20 19:43 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP. 70MB for a printer driver for XP!? Seriously? 507MB for the "Full Feature" one.I want to print something,not download the Internet. | Sep 20 19:49 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 19:52 | |
*DaemonFC` has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) | Sep 20 20:00 | |
*twitter has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)) | Sep 20 20:04 | |
schestowitz | http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Windows-XP-Service-Packs-Update,8696.html | Sep 20 20:09 |
trmanco | digg is b0rked again | Sep 20 20:16 |
trmanco | they want more visits but sometimes they just can't handle them | Sep 20 20:16 |
trmanco | :| | Sep 20 20:16 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Loving Mitchell & Webb Sound http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00mk7rn "..double plus un-not annoying.." | Sep 20 20:17 | |
trmanco | intel is promoting windows 7 on digg | Sep 20 20:19 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, this is news? | Sep 20 20:22 |
DaemonFC | it's already out of mainstream support, it's been known for a while that SP3 was the last | Sep 20 20:23 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NotN: Plastic surgeons warn against not giving them money http://notnews.today.com/?p=654 | Sep 20 20:32 | |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Dear HP, Also, my OS locale tells you that I'm in the UK. A4 is common here so should be default, not Letter. Stupid doofus driver writers. | Sep 20 20:32 | |
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.82.245) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 20:34 | |
_Hicham_ | hola senior schestowitz | Sep 20 20:35 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A Pirate Party rally in Germany http://dropnote.de/IMAG0076.png #wikipedia | Sep 20 20:44 | |
schestowitz | I'm getting fed up with Hess........ | Sep 20 20:58 |
schestowitz | Opting for Open Source < http://www.serverwatch.com/trends/article.php/3839776/Opting-for-Open-Source.htm > | Sep 20 20:58 |
schestowitz | trmanco: how does Intel 'support' them (in Digg)? | Sep 20 20:59 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: hey, Sergeant Hicham | Sep 20 20:59 |
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.19.165.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 20:59 | |
trmanco | they had a sponsored digg | Sep 20 20:59 |
trmanco | I have a screenshot | Sep 20 20:59 |
schestowitz | Oh, *that* rubbish | Sep 20 20:59 |
schestowitz | To hell with Digg | Sep 20 20:59 |
schestowitz | And to hell with the criminal companies they do trade with. | Sep 20 20:59 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : مرحبا بالأخ عمر | Sep 20 21:01 |
_Hicham_ | عيد مبارك سعيد | Sep 20 21:02 |
trmanco | :| | Sep 20 21:03 |
DaemonFC | http://www.downloadsquad.com/2009/09/19/riaa-hopes-unpaid-child-labour-will-help-fight-piracy/ | Sep 20 21:03 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: حيا الله أخ هشام | Sep 20 21:05 |
DaemonFC | heh, my Yahoo account is 11 years old today | Sep 20 21:06 |
DaemonFC | w00t! | Sep 20 21:06 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: بارك الله لنا و لكم و للمسلمين جميعا هذا الشهر الفضيل | Sep 20 21:06 |
*lis` has quit ("baibai<3") | Sep 20 21:07 | |
DaemonFC | اطال الله راوغ رأسك والقرف أسفل الحنجرة | Sep 20 21:08 |
DaemonFC | heh | Sep 20 21:08 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Do you even know what that means? | Sep 20 21:08 |
DaemonFC | it's close enough I'm sure | Sep 20 21:09 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Close to what? | Sep 20 21:09 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : hahahahahahahaha | Sep 20 21:09 |
DaemonFC | ahem, enough for what I intended to say to be an easy guess I'm assuming? | Sep 20 21:09 |
_Hicham_ | no | Sep 20 21:09 |
_Hicham_ | this doesn't mean anything | Sep 20 21:10 |
DaemonFC | hmmm | Sep 20 21:10 |
DaemonFC | probably better that way | Sep 20 21:10 |
_Hicham_ | just a set of words | Sep 20 21:10 |
_Hicham_ | no meaning at all | Sep 20 21:10 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Exactly like what _Hicham_ said. | Sep 20 21:11 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: No meaning at all. | Sep 20 21:11 |
DaemonFC | Сразу ебать себя | Sep 20 21:12 |
DaemonFC | B-) | Sep 20 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is a typical american | Sep 20 21:12 |
_goblin | no meaning is exactly why I have him on ignore now... | Sep 20 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | who pretend to know everything | Sep 20 21:12 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, thank you | Sep 20 21:12 |
_Hicham_ | hi _goblin | Sep 20 21:12 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: By the way, Google Translate is a very lousy tool. :) | Sep 20 21:12 |
DaemonFC | you're not so bad yourself | Sep 20 21:13 |
_goblin | hi | Sep 20 21:13 |
DaemonFC | yeah, I know | Sep 20 21:13 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : did u use use Google Translate right after the last Intifada? | Sep 20 21:13 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: What? | Sep 20 21:14 |
MinceR | ⵀⵄⵞⵔⵘⵋⴽⴸⴺⴴⴹⵂⴱⵍⵆⵝⵀⵆⴷⵈⵞⵍⵃⵒⵏⵘⵖⵓⵏⴿ | Sep 20 21:14 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Why? | Sep 20 21:14 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : I translated : "Shit on Israel" from french to hebrew and then the other way | Sep 20 21:14 |
DaemonFC | long live Israel | Sep 20 21:14 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : and guess what I had as an answer ? | Sep 20 21:14 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: And? | Sep 20 21:14 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: What? | Sep 20 21:14 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : the final re-translation to arabic was : "I have nothing to say about Israel" | Sep 20 21:15 |
DaemonFC | hehe | Sep 20 21:15 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: LOL. :) | Sep 20 21:15 |
_Hicham_ | Omar87 : the intent of Google Translate was to block people from insulting Israel in hebrew | Sep 20 21:15 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Well, if you don't have anything nice to say...shut your fucking cake hole | Sep 20 21:15 |
DaemonFC | how's that? | Sep 20 21:16 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : do u know what we do to daemons ? | Sep 20 21:16 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Well, if you don't have anything nice to say, do us all a favor and unplug your computer, now. :) | Sep 20 21:16 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: How does that sound? | Sep 20 21:17 |
DaemonFC | I'm unmoved | Sep 20 21:17 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 20 21:17 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Love them and pet them and squeeze them? | Sep 20 21:17 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 20 21:17 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : no, we actually throw stones on them | Sep 20 21:18 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Doesn't surprise me | Sep 20 21:18 |
DaemonFC | that's the Muslim answer for most everything | Sep 20 21:18 |
_Hicham_ | the answer to american terrorists | Sep 20 21:18 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Wow, man. You really are such typical american. :) | Sep 20 21:19 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Would be nice if you came out of 1000 BC and joined the rest of the world | Sep 20 21:19 |
DaemonFC | just a suggestion | Sep 20 21:19 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Let me ask you. What's your favorite news channel? :D | Sep 20 21:19 |
DaemonFC | I usually watch NBC | Sep 20 21:19 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : would be nice if u get out and see the real world, instead of staying in front of tv and internet | Sep 20 21:20 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: WOW! So that's why I feel so sorry for you.. hmm. | Sep 20 21:20 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, I really don't care for the rest of the world | Sep 20 21:20 |
DaemonFC | well, at least 86% of the people around here anyway | Sep 20 21:20 |
schestowitz | Knuth: England is home of literate programming < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39663084,00.htm > | Sep 20 21:20 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Then shut that gaping hole of your mouth and stop talking about it. | Sep 20 21:21 |
DaemonFC | religious people are the craziest SOBs there ever have been | Sep 20 21:21 |
DaemonFC | or ever will be | Sep 20 21:21 |
DaemonFC | *has been | Sep 20 21:21 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: You're so pathetic, man. | Sep 20 21:21 |
DaemonFC | some more than others ;) but they're all rotten to the core | Sep 20 21:21 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC admit that he doesn't care about anyone | Sep 20 21:21 |
_Hicham_ | selfish american attitude | Sep 20 21:21 |
_Hicham_ | typical | Sep 20 21:21 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Exactly. | Sep 20 21:22 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: I don't blame them, though. | Sep 20 21:22 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, No, there's still a good chance that religion will blow up the entire world | Sep 20 21:22 |
DaemonFC | reasonable people with it | Sep 20 21:22 |
DaemonFC | so just go get on with it | Sep 20 21:22 |
_Hicham_ | poor DaemonFC | Sep 20 21:22 |
DaemonFC | start World War 3 | Sep 20 21:22 |
_Hicham_ | media has eaten ur mind | Sep 20 21:22 |
_Hicham_ | beside hollywoood movies | Sep 20 21:23 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, I have a dislike of pretty much all religions | Sep 20 21:23 |
DaemonFC | some just disgust me more than others | Sep 20 21:23 |
DaemonFC | nothing personal | Sep 20 21:23 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Not after watching a documentary that exposed exactly the the American civilization is being deliberately indoctrinated in the and ever aspect of their life. | Sep 20 21:23 |
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!) | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!) | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!) | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 21:23 | |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : just let him | Sep 20 21:23 |
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #boycottnovell (User terminated!) | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@c-69-245-224-210.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 21:23 | |
*schestowitz sets ban on DaemonFC!*@* | Sep 20 21:24 | |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: he adds little of value | Sep 20 21:24 |
schestowitz | He creates controversy | Sep 20 21:24 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Exactly. The you are exactly what the US Government wants you to be. | Sep 20 21:24 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Exactly. You are exactly what the US Government wants you to be. | Sep 20 21:24 |
schestowitz | http://whitepapers.silicon.com/0,39024759,60693939p,00.htm | Sep 20 21:25 |
schestowitz | Omar87: he's been trained well. | Sep 20 21:25 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: He's been hypnotized well. Just like all Americans. (No offense) | Sep 20 21:26 |
schestowitz | That's not the issue | Sep 20 21:27 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Oh yes it is, Roy. | Sep 20 21:27 |
_Hicham_ | I watch ABC, CBC, FOX and CNN from time to time | Sep 20 21:27 |
_Hicham_ | I can't believe the way they handle news | Sep 20 21:28 |
schestowitz | He gets vindictive | Sep 20 21:28 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Please don't feel offended. But the issue is bigger than you think. It's even bigger than we all think. | Sep 20 21:28 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Have you heard about the NWO? | Sep 20 21:28 |
schestowitz | Each nation has its own POV | Sep 20 21:28 |
schestowitz | But the US has a lot of power over minds | Sep 20 21:28 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: It's imprinted on your Dollars. | Sep 20 21:28 |
schestowitz | Fair enough for some, but they have other channels | Sep 20 21:29 |
schestowitz | Like democracy now | Sep 20 21:29 |
schestowitz | But it's not mass media | Sep 20 21:29 |
schestowitz | And the US treats Al Jazeera like it's Al Qaeda (conveniently for them it sounds similar) | Sep 20 21:29 |
_Hicham_ | vive AlJazeera | Sep 20 21:30 |
*schestowitz removes ban on DaemonFC!*@* | Sep 20 21:30 | |
*Omar87 has quit ("Leaving.") | Sep 20 21:31 | |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, btw, Al Jazeera is not available | Sep 20 21:31 |
DaemonFC | not even via satellite | Sep 20 21:32 |
schestowitz | You can watch it online | Sep 20 21:32 |
DaemonFC | last time I tried to get on their website, it was too slow to even use | Sep 20 21:32 |
schestowitz | YouTube even | Sep 20 21:32 |
schestowitz | See other side of the stories | Sep 20 21:32 |
DaemonFC | there's always another side | Sep 20 21:33 |
DaemonFC | but never the truth | Sep 20 21:33 |
_Hicham_ | AlJazeera is available on satellite | Sep 20 21:33 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Not when it's locked out | Sep 20 21:33 |
schestowitz | Old: Microsoft moves to integrate Windows with BIOS < http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39116902,00.htm > | Sep 20 21:34 |
DaemonFC | there's a couple minor satellite providers that only do business in certain regions that carry it | Sep 20 21:34 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : it is available in Galaxy 19 | Sep 20 21:34 |
_Hicham_ | in Ku band | Sep 20 21:34 |
_Hicham_ | see wikipedia | Sep 20 21:34 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: you'd get him arrested :-) | Sep 20 21:34 |
DaemonFC | I don't have an old style dish | Sep 20 21:35 |
schestowitz | [for watching the 'forbidden' sites] | Sep 20 21:35 |
schestowitz | BTW, AUssie still has the filters coming | Sep 20 21:35 |
schestowitz | Germany also | Sep 20 21:35 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, It's not forbidden | Sep 20 21:35 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : it is just dropped from comcast | Sep 20 21:35 |
*Omar87 (n=omar@86.108.19.165.go.com.jo) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 21:35 | |
DaemonFC | it's jsut really hard to get | Sep 20 21:35 |
DaemonFC | lack of interest I suppose | Sep 20 21:35 |
schestowitz | WHose? | Sep 20 21:35 |
schestowitz | WHose interest? | Sep 20 21:35 |
DaemonFC | they dropped a bunch of channels I watched because they weren't profitable in this market | Sep 20 21:36 |
schestowitz | Or the advertisers | Sep 20 21:36 |
Omar87 | I'm back | Sep 20 21:36 |
_Hicham_ | AlJazeera is not profitable ? | Sep 20 21:36 |
schestowitz | They sell audiences | Sep 20 21:36 |
_Hicham_ | wb Omar87 | Sep 20 21:36 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Thanks. | Sep 20 21:36 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u don't have a dish ? | Sep 20 21:36 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Btw, speaking of Al-Qaeda. | Sep 20 21:36 |
DaemonFC | not one that I can aim at any particular satellite | Sep 20 21:37 |
DaemonFC | nobody has used those in over 10 years | Sep 20 21:37 |
_Hicham_ | why ? | Sep 20 21:37 |
DaemonFC | old technology | Sep 20 21:37 |
_Hicham_ | hahahahahaha | Sep 20 21:37 |
DaemonFC | they mainly do the mini dishes now | Sep 20 21:37 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Although Taliban and Al-Qaeda actually do exist, they both are no more the metaphors for a much larger and more terrible agenda. | Sep 20 21:37 |
_Hicham_ | and the new technology is cable ? | Sep 20 21:37 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Cable always has been more popular than satellite | Sep 20 21:38 |
DaemonFC | one of the things that's keeping it that way is cable internet | Sep 20 21:38 |
schestowitz | Tutorial Tuesday: GNOME Hotkeys http://ardchoille42.blogspot.com/2009/09/tutorial-tuesday-gnome-hotkeys.html | Sep 20 21:38 |
_Hicham_ | weird US | Sep 20 21:38 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Yay, Celebrity Come Dine With Me on the Hummy! :) | Sep 20 21:38 | |
_Hicham_ | they do what they want to their people | Sep 20 21:38 |
Omar87 | schestowitzL: Anyone who dares to stand in its way will be recognized as another Al-Qaeda or Taliban. | Sep 20 21:38 |
DaemonFC | satellite companies don't even really have internet services anymore | Sep 20 21:39 |
DaemonFC | they give you like $10 /month off DSL | Sep 20 21:39 |
DaemonFC | woohoo | Sep 20 21:39 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Be it directly or indirectly. | Sep 20 21:39 |
DaemonFC | it ends up costing about half again as much (or more) to get satellite TV + DSL | Sep 20 21:39 |
schestowitz | Omar87: they take the extremist to create fear of a large population, I know.... | Sep 20 21:39 |
schestowitz | That's like saying that if you're from Germany then you're with the neo-Nazis | Sep 20 21:40 |
cubezzz | I think Galaxy 19 might carry Al Jazeera | Sep 20 21:40 |
schestowitz | Or people from Louisiana are dangerous cause they might be linked to the KKK | Sep 20 21:40 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC doesn't like dishes | Sep 20 21:40 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: True. However, unfortunately, that's not the whole picture. | Sep 20 21:40 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is part of the KKK | Sep 20 21:40 |
cubezzz | FTA even: Al Jazeera English | Sep 20 21:40 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, I just don't like the south because of a number of reasons | Sep 20 21:40 |
DaemonFC | it's OK to visit, but I wouldn't stay there | Sep 20 21:40 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: what DO you like? | Sep 20 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC has all symptoms of a confirmed terrorist | Sep 20 21:41 |
cubezzz | FTA Ku-band channels for Galaxy 19 (97º W) | Sep 20 21:41 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, How do you gather that? | Sep 20 21:41 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: maybe NRAers | Sep 20 21:41 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, When 86% of the population is crazy or stupid | Sep 20 21:41 |
schestowitz | Or militia members :;-p | Sep 20 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : first of all, u have a weapon | Sep 20 21:41 |
DaemonFC | there's not much you can like | Sep 20 21:41 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : and second, u are mentally ill | Sep 20 21:42 |
cubezzz | right, you can't just make broad generalizations | Sep 20 21:42 |
cubezzz | details count | Sep 20 21:42 |
_Hicham_ | just this two symptoms makes u an ideal terrorist | Sep 20 21:42 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, It's getting better | Sep 20 21:42 |
DaemonFC | just 18 years ago, over 93% of the population was crazy/stupid | Sep 20 21:43 |
_Hicham_ | so, I may file a petition to the interpol to come and catch u | Sep 20 21:43 |
DaemonFC | it's a majority across most of the world though | Sep 20 21:43 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: From what aspect. | Sep 20 21:43 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, They don't have jurisdiction here | Sep 20 21:43 |
DaemonFC | so go ahead :) | Sep 20 21:43 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : you will get killed by ur own gang | Sep 20 21:44 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, Oppressive religious types that are sworn to take away all of my human rights one by one til they can legally have another holocaust | Sep 20 21:44 |
DaemonFC | throw people like me into their fire | Sep 20 21:44 |
DaemonFC | roast us with all the books | Sep 20 21:44 |
cubezzz | I think you can just stick up a FTA dish and get Al Jazeera for free btw | Sep 20 21:44 |
schestowitz | HP thinks we're all dumb(Ed down: http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HP-DreamScreen-100/ | Sep 20 21:44 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Look, again. I don't blame you. You are a victim. | Sep 20 21:45 |
cubezzz | Galaxy 19 covers Canada, USA and Mexico | Sep 20 21:45 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u look like a chicken, that is why u would be good to roast | Sep 20 21:45 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: However, one thing I do blame you for is not looking for the truth. | Sep 20 21:45 |
_Hicham_ | and add some spices to you | Sep 20 21:45 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, That's one reason why I have the lifetime carry permit | Sep 20 21:45 |
DaemonFC | I don't go anywhere without at least one firearm holstered to me | Sep 20 21:45 |
cubezzz | poor chickens, everyone eats them :) | Sep 20 21:46 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: let's not go there with humour | Sep 20 21:46 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: You, as well as the entire American population are all victims of a mass hypnosis. | Sep 20 21:46 |
schestowitz | I'm not in the mood for food now | Sep 20 21:46 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : why ? are u sick ? | Sep 20 21:46 |
schestowitz | cubezzz: breeds them too | Sep 20 21:46 |
_Hicham_ | did u eat sthg bad ? | Sep 20 21:47 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, it's an effective deterrent | Sep 20 21:47 |
schestowitz | Omar87: not just them | Sep 20 21:47 |
DaemonFC | I have had to shoot at people before | Sep 20 21:47 |
schestowitz | Most countries are | Sep 20 21:47 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: The words you keep repeating are nothing new. I've personally heard them so many time from so many people that I'm starting to believe Americans are no longer humans. | Sep 20 21:47 |
schestowitz | With Net censorship it might get worse | Sep 20 21:47 |
DaemonFC | I'd never be caught without it | Sep 20 21:47 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: no, it's 10pm hre | Sep 20 21:47 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: They are biological recording machines. | Sep 20 21:48 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: That's right. | Sep 20 21:48 |
cubezzz | speaking of TV shows, I saw a Linux show on TV one time, comparing BSD and Linux | Sep 20 21:48 |
_Hicham_ | we have a criminal in here | Sep 20 21:48 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, And that's the first step towards a holocaust | Sep 20 21:48 |
DaemonFC | convincing yourself that they aren't really people anyway | Sep 20 21:48 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Tell that to yourself. | Sep 20 21:48 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : go talk about the holocaust in public | Sep 20 21:48 |
_Hicham_ | and see what they will do to u | Sep 20 21:48 |
schestowitz | We're all organisms :-) | Sep 20 21:48 |
DaemonFC | well, I'd expect you to deny it | Sep 20 21:48 |
_Hicham_ | if u really have balls | Sep 20 21:49 |
DaemonFC | for obvious reasons | Sep 20 21:49 |
DaemonFC | so I'm really not going to debate this | Sep 20 21:49 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : go tell it to one of ur channels | Sep 20 21:49 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: let's cool it down | Sep 20 21:49 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : as u want | Sep 20 21:49 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Look at how Disney and Hollywood carved that filthy image about Arabs and Muslims deep in your mind. | Sep 20 21:49 |
schestowitz | Aladdin | Sep 20 21:49 |
schestowitz | There are good documentaries about it | Sep 20 21:49 |
schestowitz | Let me find some.... | Sep 20 21:50 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, I just would like to be left alone, and if you and the other invisible sky god believers want to blow each other to hell, have at it | Sep 20 21:50 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : and u , what do u blow ? | Sep 20 21:50 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Muslims, for your information, are took the biggest piece of the pie of Hollywood's ricism. | Sep 20 21:50 |
DaemonFC | how is that? | Sep 20 21:51 |
cubezzz | what about Cowboy shows? "Indians" being the bad guys all the time | Sep 20 21:51 |
schestowitz | Racism in Disney < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LibK0SCpIkk > | Sep 20 21:51 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Exactly! You are such a success story for the the NWO agenda! :D | Sep 20 21:51 |
DaemonFC | the NWO? | Sep 20 21:51 |
DaemonFC | heh | Sep 20 21:51 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: The New World Order. | Sep 20 21:51 |
DaemonFC | as in the wrestling group? | Sep 20 21:51 |
cubezzz | thank you Christopher Columbus for botching that up for centuries | Sep 20 21:51 |
DaemonFC | or as in the crackpot conspiracy theory? | Sep 20 21:52 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: It's imprinted on the back of your dollars. | Sep 20 21:52 |
DaemonFC | Novus Ordo Seclorum | Sep 20 21:52 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Oh my God. I'm feeling sorry for you. :) | Sep 20 21:52 |
schestowitz | Disney and how they portray racism through sound http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg2T_t2UtlU&feature=PlayList&p=AC764C1EEEDD6752&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=18 | Sep 20 21:52 |
schestowitz | Is Disney racist? < http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0LbKBV7oA > | Sep 20 21:52 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: So, you really do know about it. :) | Sep 20 21:52 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, You're mistranslating it anyway | Sep 20 21:53 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC will be caught sooner or later | Sep 20 21:53 |
DaemonFC | new world order would be Novus Ordo Mundi | Sep 20 21:53 |
cubezzz | Novus Ordo Seclorum, with the eye and the pyramid? :) | Sep 20 21:53 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: That's not true. | Sep 20 21:53 |
Omar87 | cubezzz: Exactly. | Sep 20 21:53 |
DaemonFC | Novus Ordo Seclorum means "New order for the ages" not "New world order" | Sep 20 21:53 |
DaemonFC | *of the ages that is | Sep 20 21:54 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: The same. | Sep 20 21:54 |
cubezzz | "New America Era" or something like that | Sep 20 21:54 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, no | Sep 20 21:54 |
Omar87 | cubezzz: No. | Sep 20 21:54 |
DaemonFC | that's not anywhere on it | Sep 20 21:54 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_ordo_seclorum | Sep 20 21:54 |
cubezzz | " Masonic representation of The Great Architect of the Universe" | Sep 20 21:55 |
MinceR | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy_theory%29 | Sep 20 21:55 |
MinceR | there you go, even the logo is there | Sep 20 21:55 |
cubezzz | ok, so that's what the eye is, I was never clear on that | Sep 20 21:56 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I've read a lot about it already. The story is so huge that it would never fit inside you hypnotized brain. | Sep 20 21:56 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, Omar87 doesn't understand the ceremonial representations | Sep 20 21:56 |
Omar87 | your* | Sep 20 21:56 |
DaemonFC | so he's a conspiracy theorist | Sep 20 21:56 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Of course I do. | Sep 20 21:56 |
cubezzz | the eye seemed Orwellian to me :) | Sep 20 21:57 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, The conspiracy theorists are delusional, and they've created a pretty convoluted story around their delusions | Sep 20 21:57 |
DaemonFC | they've basically written a movie script and are selling it as "prophecy" | Sep 20 21:57 |
cubezzz | we all believe man was on the moon right? :) | Sep 20 21:57 |
schestowitz | Belch. What is Jason doing...? http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Enterprise-Applications/LABS-GALLERY-Office-Web-Apps-Preview-Brings-Microsofts-Productivity-Flagship-to-Firefox-and-Linux-59/ | Sep 20 21:58 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Lol. :) | Sep 20 21:58 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, You can see "prophecy" in anything, including tea leaves and chicken entrails | Sep 20 21:58 |
DaemonFC | every human culture has had some deep rooted superstitions | Sep 20 21:59 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: One thing those "Conspiracy Theorists" do know, is that they must not believe anything said to them. | Sep 20 21:59 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, I also know this one | Sep 20 21:59 |
DaemonFC | you say that like it validates everything you're saying | Sep 20 21:59 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is a big scientist | Sep 20 21:59 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: You can see "Nothing" in anything. Thats exactly what they want you to be. | Sep 20 21:59 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, You can't disagree with me or you're "one of them" | Sep 20 22:00 |
DaemonFC | oldest line in the book | Sep 20 22:00 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, I'm not superstitious | Sep 20 22:00 |
DaemonFC | I'm not religious | Sep 20 22:00 |
DaemonFC | If you want the definition of insanity, religious and superstitious people provide the best example | Sep 20 22:00 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u r not human | Sep 20 22:01 |
DaemonFC | insanity as a legal defense means you can't tell right from wrong | Sep 20 22:01 |
DaemonFC | Religion takes that from you | Sep 20 22:01 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just a guy who wants to know the truth. | Sep 20 22:01 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : go see a shrink | Sep 20 22:01 |
schestowitz | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GPQZ7wGV8k | Sep 20 22:01 |
DaemonFC | religious people are indoctrinated into a society that takes away their ability to discern right from wrong | Sep 20 22:01 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Exactly. | Sep 20 22:01 |
DaemonFC | it massages it out of them | Sep 20 22:01 |
DaemonFC | until they will do the evil bidding of their masters in the church, mosque, etc. without hesitation or question | Sep 20 22:02 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Oh my God. You are an amazing success story of that agenda man. | Sep 20 22:02 |
DaemonFC | they're not evil people, they're brainwashed by the religion | Sep 20 22:02 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is a real toy | Sep 20 22:02 |
DaemonFC | how does religion attract people and strip them of their conscience? | Sep 20 22:03 |
DaemonFC | threats and bribes | Sep 20 22:03 |
DaemonFC | bribe them with heaven, virgins, etc. | Sep 20 22:03 |
DaemonFC | threaten with an eternity of hellfire and damnation | Sep 20 22:03 |
Omar87 | Okay, people. Please don't be offended by anything I'm gonna say now. But, can any Atheist explain to me what exactly is Atheism all about? | Sep 20 22:03 |
Omar87 | What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it? | Sep 20 22:04 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, Atheism is simply the non-belief in the supernatural | Sep 20 22:04 |
DaemonFC | there's a lot of different kinds of atheists | Sep 20 22:04 |
DaemonFC | including, Secular Humanism | Sep 20 22:04 |
DaemonFC | I think that's really what you want to know | Sep 20 22:04 |
DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_humanism | Sep 20 22:05 |
schestowitz | > [22:04] <Omar87> What is the Philosophical or Ideological meaning behind it? | Sep 20 22:05 |
schestowitz | Yes | Sep 20 22:05 |
schestowitz | There's not much | Sep 20 22:05 |
DaemonFC | in a nutshell....There's no gods or devils, all good or evil is man made | Sep 20 22:05 |
schestowitz | The rules are based, IMHO, on what nature gives us | Sep 20 22:05 |
Omar87 | I can sum up "Atheism" in this small picture: http://shatterpoint.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/atheism.png?w=450&h=450 | Sep 20 22:05 |
cubezzz | that doesn't really explain people like Dahmer though | Sep 20 22:05 |
schestowitz | Compassion, mutual favours based on expectations of reciprocity, etc. | Sep 20 22:05 |
DaemonFC | we're solely responsible for what we do to others | Sep 20 22:05 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: That's exactly what "Atheism is all about" | Sep 20 22:06 |
schestowitz | Even chimpanzees have that innate to improve their survival and status in the group | Sep 20 22:06 |
schestowitz | So the ethical framework is like ubuntu (the African word) | Sep 20 22:06 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: All by chance? | Sep 20 22:06 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, Religious types always attack non-religious types by stating that non-religious types can't definitively answer the questions of life and the universe | Sep 20 22:06 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: With no creator at all? | Sep 20 22:06 |
DaemonFC | Religion is a convenience | Sep 20 22:07 |
cubezzz | well if I can interject here: Are knowledge level isn't too good | Sep 20 22:07 |
cubezzz | Our | Sep 20 22:07 |
DaemonFC | it doesn't give you the luxury of figuring out what happened because they tell it to you in fairy tales | Sep 20 22:07 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Please to acting like a parrot, will ya? | Sep 20 22:07 |
cubezzz | we haven't even got to Mars yet :) | Sep 20 22:07 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I'm starting to believe you're a bot. | Sep 20 22:07 |
schestowitz | Omar87: we are simple creatures | Sep 20 22:07 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: You are a bot. | Sep 20 22:07 |
schestowitz | Compare the size of Earth to the universe | Sep 20 22:07 |
_Hicham_ | no, we aren't simple creatures | Sep 20 22:08 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Can you prove that? | Sep 20 22:08 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, It's like saying "Why bother figuring out physics, things fall because God says they fall" | Sep 20 22:08 |
schestowitz | Things like quasars and stuff | Sep 20 22:08 |
_Hicham_ | we are more | Sep 20 22:08 |
schestowitz | It's all relative | Sep 20 22:08 |
_Hicham_ | we have minds | Sep 20 22:08 |
DaemonFC | Religious types and that type of thinking bother me for that reason | Sep 20 22:08 |
_Hicham_ | no other creature in the universe have mind | Sep 20 22:08 |
schestowitz | If our complexity is high, why not the rest? | Sep 20 22:08 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I don't talk to bots. | Sep 20 22:08 |
cubezzz | we don't even know how big the universe is, only the visible universe | Sep 20 22:08 |
schestowitz | And who would create a creator. | Sep 20 22:08 |
schestowitz | That would require a lot of skill and complexity too | Sep 20 22:08 |
cubezzz | I have a theory :) | Sep 20 22:08 |
Omar87 | cubezzz: Exactly. | Sep 20 22:08 |
_Hicham_ | go ahead cubezzz | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, And who created the creator's creator? | Sep 20 22:09 |
schestowitz | We can save a step or two and study as 'divide and conquer' by regressing to simpler questions | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | and shouldn't that guy be the boss? | Sep 20 22:09 |
schestowitz | Like studying biology of bacteria | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | :P | Sep 20 22:09 |
schestowitz | Then trees too | Sep 20 22:09 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Why would you ever need to know that? | Sep 20 22:09 |
cubezzz | this universe we are in now, from our perspective is Universe X | Sep 20 22:09 |
schestowitz | The DNA sequences of trees are similar to ours | Sep 20 22:09 |
cubezzz | but there is also X-1, X-2, X-3 etc | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, If you tell me you have all the answers, that's wonderful | Sep 20 22:09 |
_Hicham_ | we think of creation, because we are created | Sep 20 22:09 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Does a piece of bread need to know who created the baker? | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | I hope you have proof of every bit of it | Sep 20 22:09 |
schestowitz | So you can see we're biological 'cousins' derives from the same branches | Sep 20 22:09 |
_Hicham_ | creation is not necessary | Sep 20 22:09 |
DaemonFC | and I hope that you can repeatedly demonstrate everything you claim | Sep 20 22:10 |
cubezzz | each Universe is created from the previous one, each iteration is different | Sep 20 22:10 |
_Hicham_ | creation is the limit of the human mind | Sep 20 22:10 |
schestowitz | Science is fascinating when you learn how many molecules make you | Sep 20 22:10 |
cubezzz | so there :) | Sep 20 22:10 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I am no more that a student. | Sep 20 22:10 |
schestowitz | It belittles all of our beliefs and technology and litartuire | Sep 20 22:10 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, I, the atheist, am not the unreasonable one | Sep 20 22:10 |
DaemonFC | all I ask for is proof of what you say | Sep 20 22:10 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : our current knowledge is nothing | Sep 20 22:10 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: No human being has all the answers. | Sep 20 22:10 |
DaemonFC | if you tell me that Allah made the universe out of tapioca pudding and can prove it definitively | Sep 20 22:10 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Prove it. | Sep 20 22:10 |
DaemonFC | then that's splended | Sep 20 22:10 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: I can not tell you how Allah created the universe. | Sep 20 22:11 |
cubezzz | I think Odin deserves a mention too :) | Sep 20 22:11 |
cubezzz | just to be fair | Sep 20 22:11 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, Then how can you tell me he did? | Sep 20 22:11 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u don't have the ability to answer that | Sep 20 22:11 |
_Hicham_ | neither do anyone | Sep 20 22:11 |
schestowitz | I think of god/s as placeholders for stuff that's still too complex for us | Sep 20 22:11 |
_Hicham_ | it is far from our knowledge | Sep 20 22:11 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, And you don't have any grounds to claim that's what happened | Sep 20 22:11 |
schestowitz | When man made fire it treated it with repsect | Sep 20 22:12 |
schestowitz | And revered the sun, which was this blob of light | Sep 20 22:12 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: And I don't need to know that piece of information either. However, one logical thing that I know so well, is that chance cannot build a car. | Sep 20 22:12 |
schestowitz | Without realising what it was | Sep 20 22:12 |
schestowitz | Many religions made a "God" out of the Sun | Sep 20 22:12 |
_Hicham_ | it is not about making a god | Sep 20 22:12 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, No it can't | Sep 20 22:12 |
DaemonFC | humans can | Sep 20 22:12 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: So how can a chance create such a complicated universe? | Sep 20 22:12 |
_Hicham_ | it is about thinking deeply | Sep 20 22:12 |
schestowitz | Which was just one among hundreds of billions of similar suns | Sep 20 22:12 |
DaemonFC | I see humans building cars | Sep 20 22:12 |
*tacone (n=rooms@81-65-93-65.rev.numericable.fr) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 22:12 | |
schestowitz | or stars | Sep 20 22:12 |
_Hicham_ | and accessing the limits of our knowledge | Sep 20 22:12 |
cubezzz | not illogical, since we really really need the sun :) | Sep 20 22:12 |
DaemonFC | so I'm satisfied that humans build cars | Sep 20 22:12 |
*tacone has quit (Client Quit) | Sep 20 22:13 | |
schestowitz | THe Sun is no longer believed to be our creator | Sep 20 22:13 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC is really dumb | Sep 20 22:13 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, The universe as a whole is not purpose built | Sep 20 22:13 |
schestowitz | But it's vital to our life as it was created with it as a precondition | Sep 20 22:13 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Exactly! Cars do get built up on their own! | Sep 20 22:13 |
DaemonFC | there was a very very small chance of humans ever existing | Sep 20 22:13 |
Omar87 | don't** | Sep 20 22:13 |
_Hicham_ | the sun can't be our creator schestowitz, neither any object in the universe | Sep 20 22:13 |
_Hicham_ | we are creatures | Sep 20 22:13 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: That's ridiculous! | Sep 20 22:13 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, the universe as it is not is easier to get than a car | Sep 20 22:13 |
DaemonFC | because we were not a desired result of a fine tuned process | Sep 20 22:14 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Actually, I meant ludicrous. | Sep 20 22:14 |
DaemonFC | *now | Sep 20 22:14 |
schestowitz | Humans build cars and space cruisers with the same elements and brains people had 20,000 years ago | Sep 20 22:14 |
schestowitz | Not, THAT's amazing | Sep 20 22:14 |
_Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahaha | Sep 20 22:14 |
_Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahahahaha | Sep 20 22:14 |
_Hicham_ | hahahahahahahahahahah | Sep 20 22:14 |
schestowitz | It makes humans like GOds :-p | Sep 20 22:14 |
_Hicham_ | i ve never seen such a dumb person | Sep 20 22:14 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa | Sep 20 22:14 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, The universe is not purpose built | Sep 20 22:14 |
schestowitz | It is | Sep 20 22:15 |
_Hicham_ | u r really a chicken | Sep 20 22:15 |
DaemonFC | we're here by accident and because enough things happened by chance | Sep 20 22:15 |
schestowitz | For its physical laws | Sep 20 22:15 |
_Hicham_ | at least u have a chicken's mind | Sep 20 22:15 |
schestowitz | Which never changes since it started | Sep 20 22:15 |
cubezzz | I'm eating chicken right now! :) | Sep 20 22:15 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??! | Sep 20 22:15 |
schestowitz | It maybe could implode and restart with different physical laws | Sep 20 22:15 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Is behaving like a chicken | Sep 20 22:15 |
schestowitz | Like another speed of light | Sep 20 22:15 |
_Hicham_ | haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhahahaha | Sep 20 22:15 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, Chance | Sep 20 22:15 |
schestowitz | But it's still a complex question | Sep 20 22:15 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u really make me laugh | Sep 20 22:16 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Are you even listening to yourself?!? :D | Sep 20 22:16 |
_Hicham_ | chance can't build the universe | Sep 20 22:16 |
schestowitz | [22:15] <Omar87> DaemonFC: Then how can you believe that such a very complex system got established in this fascinating way all out nothing??! | Sep 20 22:16 |
schestowitz | It wasn't | Sep 20 22:16 |
*tacone (n=rooms@79.101.64-86.rev.gaoland.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 22:16 | |
schestowitz | It evolved | Sep 20 22:16 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Exactly! | Sep 20 22:16 |
schestowitz | That's the thing | Sep 20 22:16 |
cubezzz | we need a FOSS universe | Sep 20 22:16 |
DaemonFC | Omar87, We're probably not even unique, by "we're" I mean life | Sep 20 22:16 |
schestowitz | A lot can happen in billions of years | Sep 20 22:16 |
schestowitz | More than we can perceive | Sep 20 22:16 |
_Hicham_ | blind evolution can't establish the universe as it is | Sep 20 22:16 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Evolved out of nothing?? | Sep 20 22:16 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Of course it can | Sep 20 22:16 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: See this: http://shatterpoint.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/atheism.png?w=450&h=450 | Sep 20 22:16 |
cubezzz | these are meta-physical questions | Sep 20 22:16 |
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving") | Sep 20 22:16 | |
_Hicham_ | and the physical laws we have are just an approximation of some other more complex laws | Sep 20 22:17 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, but what fails dies | Sep 20 22:17 |
schestowitz | Like exploding stars | Sep 20 22:17 |
DaemonFC | We don't know exactly how everything happened, so instead of figuring it out, let's create an invisible sky god | Sep 20 22:17 |
schestowitz | Or black holes that swallow matter | Sep 20 22:17 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: It dies not because it failed. | Sep 20 22:17 |
*tacone has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 22:17 | |
schestowitz | Man was not 'established' | Sep 20 22:17 |
DaemonFC | when people ask us for proof of the sky god, we'll just say that he only ever talks to us | Sep 20 22:17 |
schestowitz | It's a side effect | Sep 20 22:17 |
cubezzz | flying spagetti monster anyone? :) | Sep 20 22:17 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: It dies because its lifespan has ended, | Sep 20 22:17 |
_Hicham_ | exactly | Sep 20 22:18 |
_Hicham_ | nothing is meant to last for ever | Sep 20 22:18 |
DaemonFC | cubezzz, His noodly appendage touched Omar87 | Sep 20 22:18 |
schestowitz | Omar87: 99% of the world's creatures are already extinct | Sep 20 22:18 |
schestowitz | So many types of them failed | Sep 20 22:18 |
schestowitz | Those better at reproducing carry on | Sep 20 22:18 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : not failed | Sep 20 22:18 |
schestowitz | It's not as though it's special-purpose-made | Sep 20 22:18 |
cubezzz | there's been what, 5 or 6 major extinction events? | Sep 20 22:18 |
_Hicham_ | climate change | Sep 20 22:18 |
DaemonFC | schestowitz, Like the prehistoric spiders that were bigger than a dog | Sep 20 22:18 |
DaemonFC | those sound awesome | Sep 20 22:19 |
_Hicham_ | climate change can kill us too | Sep 20 22:19 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: How does that relate here? | Sep 20 22:19 |
DaemonFC | _Hicham_, Nope, Allah or maybe Jesus will save us | Sep 20 22:19 |
DaemonFC | one of them anyway | Sep 20 22:19 |
DaemonFC | I'm confident :P | Sep 20 22:19 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : Jesus will come for sure | Sep 20 22:19 |
_Hicham_ | just trust me | Sep 20 22:19 |
_Hicham_ | :) | Sep 20 22:20 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: _Hicham_ is right. | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | Omar87: what specifically? | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: he did | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | On toast | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | Someone found him | Sep 20 22:20 |
DaemonFC | nope | Sep 20 22:20 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : on toast ? | Sep 20 22:20 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: The "extinction" part. | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | In a piece of toast | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | Yes, his fact | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | *Face | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | You didn't hear? | Sep 20 22:20 |
DaemonFC | that was the Virgin Mary that appeared on toast | Sep 20 22:20 |
schestowitz | Let me find it.. | Sep 20 22:20 |
DaemonFC | :) | Sep 20 22:20 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God? | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | Oh, yeah, but I think it was both | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | There was also a Jesus toast | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | Let me find it | Sep 20 22:21 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: Be polite, or shut pleast. | Sep 20 22:21 |
DaemonFC | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptions_of_religious_imagery_in_natural_phenomena | Sep 20 22:21 |
Omar87 | please* | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | DaemonFC: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en-GB&q=jesus+toast&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&ie=UTF-8 | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | He's allllllllllive | Sep 20 22:21 |
cubezzz | ok this might be of interest: | Sep 20 22:21 |
cubezzz | http://cs.anu.edu.au/student/comp8440/lectures/foss_history.pdf | Sep 20 22:21 |
schestowitz | Omar87: how do they know what Mary looked like? | Sep 20 22:22 |
DaemonFC | http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&rlz=1B5GGGL_enGB315GB316&sa=1&q=virgin+mary+grilled+cheese&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0 | Sep 20 22:22 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : Jesus will come at the end | Sep 20 22:22 |
_Hicham_ | no doubt about that | Sep 20 22:22 |
schestowitz | Some of the stories about it emerges hundreds of years later and passed from mouth to ear | Sep 20 22:22 |
DaemonFC | http://farm1.static.flickr.com/200/524515381_02210cbac0.jpg | Sep 20 22:22 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: I do ask them this question too. | Sep 20 22:22 |
schestowitz | Like the stories about Mary sort of resurrected and going up to heaven | Sep 20 22:22 |
schestowitz | That came hundreds of years later | Sep 20 22:23 |
schestowitz | Warped story.. | Sep 20 22:23 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: 'coz I don't know the answer myself. | Sep 20 22:23 |
cubezzz | so much for BSD being Free in 1978 | Sep 20 22:23 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: That's Jesus you're talking about. | Sep 20 22:23 |
_Hicham_ | DaemonFC : u gotta get more education | Sep 20 22:23 |
Omar87 | DaemonFC: True. | Sep 20 22:23 |
schestowitz | Omar87: too bad... | Sep 20 22:23 |
schestowitz | SOme say he either didn't exist or was making claims people fell for. But that's another story...... | Sep 20 22:24 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Do you even know how your 14 gradfather looked like? | Sep 20 22:24 |
Omar87 | grandfather* | Sep 20 22:24 |
schestowitz | Omar87: can't | Sep 20 22:24 |
schestowitz | No drawings or anything. | Sep 20 22:24 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : how can Jesus know that another prophet will come ? | Sep 20 22:24 |
schestowitz | Family tree goes like 7 levels up | Sep 20 22:24 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: But still you do believe that he existed? How so? | Sep 20 22:24 |
_Hicham_ | and know his name exactly ? | Sep 20 22:24 |
schestowitz | To 18th century-ish | Sep 20 22:24 |
_Hicham_ | answer me plz | Sep 20 22:25 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: which one of them | Sep 20 22:25 |
schestowitz | There would be like 2^15 | Sep 20 22:25 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : our prophet | Sep 20 22:25 |
_Hicham_ | it is stated in the bible | Sep 20 22:25 |
schestowitz | I.e. I have like 500,000 granfathers at that level | Sep 20 22:25 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: If you know the answer to my latest question, then you should know why God exists. | Sep 20 22:25 |
schestowitz | Oops | Sep 20 22:26 |
schestowitz | THat would be 19 generations | Sep 20 22:26 |
_Hicham_ | no answer, thanks | Sep 20 22:26 |
schestowitz | Being a prophet is a hard job | Sep 20 22:26 |
_Hicham_ | I appreciate ur diplomacy schestowitz | Sep 20 22:26 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Do you believe that you 14 grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him? | Sep 20 22:26 |
schestowitz | The complexity of prodicting matter and time in the universe it hard | Sep 20 22:27 |
schestowitz | Even for 10 seconds | Sep 20 22:27 |
schestowitz | PRophecy takes a very large processor/brain | Sep 20 22:27 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : how can u explain prediction ? | Sep 20 22:27 |
schestowitz | EVen then, there's causality | Sep 20 22:27 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Please answer my question. | Sep 20 22:27 |
schestowitz | That's where things get tricky with quantum mechanics and all | Sep 20 22:27 |
schestowitz | Omar87: we can excavate them | Sep 20 22:28 |
schestowitz | We can also find the missing links in Africa | Sep 20 22:28 |
schestowitz | East Africa | Sep 20 22:28 |
schestowitz | Just needs to be dug deep enough | Sep 20 22:28 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : have we ever seen a photon ? | Sep 20 22:28 |
schestowitz | If you go along those lines you'd also find those giant spiders and dinosaurs | Sep 20 22:28 |
schestowitz | It's all there. Concrete and real. | Sep 20 22:29 |
_Hicham_ | have we ever seen an electron? | Sep 20 22:29 |
_Hicham_ | nothing | Sep 20 22:29 |
schestowitz | With organic material and everything needed to reconstruction | Sep 20 22:29 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: That's not necessary. | Sep 20 22:29 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: I don't have the tools | Sep 20 22:29 |
schestowitz | Not even bacteria has those tools | Sep 20 22:29 |
schestowitz | But we made some | Sep 20 22:29 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : the point is, we don't have to see to believe | Sep 20 22:29 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: The logical answer is much easier and much more powerful. | Sep 20 22:29 |
schestowitz | Artificial tools | Sep 20 22:30 |
_Hicham_ | that is why we have minds | Sep 20 22:30 |
schestowitz | People used not to know about atoms | Sep 20 22:30 |
schestowitz | Until some people in Alexandria (IIRC) hypothesised about it | Sep 20 22:30 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : just a theory | Sep 20 22:30 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: The main and only pillar you Atheists revolve around is something called "Materialism". | Sep 20 22:30 |
schestowitz | Later it was proven better (after middle ages and burning of major libraries and discoveries) | Sep 20 22:30 |
_Hicham_ | to explain the stucture of matter | Sep 20 22:30 |
schestowitz | The world being round too | Sep 20 22:30 |
schestowitz | It wasn't post inquisition | Sep 20 22:31 |
schestowitz | That the world was round was known in Egypt well before that | Sep 20 22:31 |
schestowitz | After Artostanis [spelling] did an experiment | Sep 20 22:31 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: There is no need for this big hype. | Sep 20 22:31 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: no, but we see it | Sep 20 22:32 |
schestowitz | We see the evidence of electrons | Sep 20 22:32 |
_Hicham_ | ah, the evidence | Sep 20 22:32 |
schestowitz | We can also experiment with them to see how they behave | Sep 20 22:32 |
_Hicham_ | not them | Sep 20 22:32 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: You haven't answered my question. | Sep 20 22:32 |
schestowitz | We covered many 'placeholders' | Sep 20 22:32 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him? | Sep 20 22:32 |
schestowitz | Over time, things that used to be 'magic' are not taken for granted as factoids | Sep 20 22:32 |
_Hicham_ | why not experiment with ur mind ? | Sep 20 22:32 |
_Hicham_ | only ur mind | Sep 20 22:32 |
schestowitz | Milky Way is no longer just real milk from the breast of a Goddess | Sep 20 22:32 |
_Hicham_ | that is the biggest gift we have | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: my mind is small | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | We need to combine many | Sep 20 22:33 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Where did you get that silly fairytail from? | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | Multi-disciplinary work | Sep 20 22:33 |
_Hicham_ | thanks to god u admit it | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | Project Manhattan employed like 100k people | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | Just to build an atom bomb | Sep 20 22:33 |
schestowitz | Omar87: it's true | Sep 20 22:33 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : why do atheists prentend to know everything since our mind is small ? | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | That's why it's called that | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | mythology | Sep 20 22:34 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: What is? | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | Influenza comes from the belief that it's caused by motion of stars | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: people summarised their findings | Sep 20 22:34 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Who brought that to your mind? Walt Disney? | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | So we are told the fact and can descend to the proof of them | Sep 20 22:34 |
MinceR | http://zip.4chan.org/g/src/1253481942921.png | Sep 20 22:34 |
schestowitz | I am sometimes wanting to see the proof for claims that lay before us in documentaries | Sep 20 22:35 |
schestowitz | It's always there | Sep 20 22:35 |
schestowitz | And if you ask questions, then you see why | Sep 20 22:35 |
schestowitz | Ages of the universe has very good reasoning behind it | Sep 20 22:35 |
schestowitz | Formation of Earth too | Sep 20 22:35 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: You haven't answered me, yet. | Sep 20 22:35 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Do you believe that your 14th grandfather existed even though you haven't actually seen him? | Sep 20 22:35 |
schestowitz | Also the fact that all galaxies move away from the same centre indicates they use to overlap | Sep 20 22:36 |
schestowitz | *used | Sep 20 22:36 |
_Hicham_ | true | Sep 20 22:36 |
schestowitz | Omar87: where would I come from otherwise | Sep 20 22:36 |
_Hicham_ | that is stated in the Quran | Sep 20 22:36 |
schestowitz | My 13th grandfather wasn't created by "poof! Magic". Very unlikely. | Sep 20 22:36 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: That's the answer I want you to start from. | Sep 20 22:37 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : and how was the first man created ? | Sep 20 22:37 |
schestowitz | And I can see someone else's 150th grandfather | Sep 20 22:37 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: If it wasn't for you 14 Grandfather, where would you have come from otherwise? | Sep 20 22:37 |
schestowitz | His 15th grandfaher would probably be astounded to see people around him going "poof! Here I am!" | Sep 20 22:37 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: there's no first man | Sep 20 22:38 |
schestowitz | It's mutuation | Sep 20 22:38 |
schestowitz | Very, very slow | Sep 20 22:38 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : we mutated from apes ? | Sep 20 22:38 |
schestowitz | 100 generations =~ 2000 years | Sep 20 22:38 |
schestowitz | 10,000 generations =~ 200000 years | Sep 20 22:38 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: And if it wasn't for your 15th Grandfather, where would have your 14 grandfather have come from otherwise? Until you come to realize that nothing pops out of thin air by chance. | Sep 20 22:39 |
schestowitz | Age of man | Sep 20 22:39 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Everything happens for a reason. | Sep 20 22:39 |
schestowitz | Age of Earth is like 10,000 TIMES more than that | Sep 20 22:39 |
schestowitz | Omar87: opposite | Sep 20 22:39 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Prove your argument. | Sep 20 22:40 |
schestowitz | You imply: | Sep 20 22:40 |
schestowitz | outcome is reaches by action | Sep 20 22:40 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: "There's no first man", prove it. | Sep 20 22:40 |
Balrog_ | schestowitz: where in the Old Testament does it say that the earth was created *five thousand* years ago ? | Sep 20 22:40 |
schestowitz | Rather then action leads to outcome | Sep 20 22:40 |
schestowitz | There's no sense of reason/purpose for probability | Sep 20 22:41 |
schestowitz | It just happens | Sep 20 22:41 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : ur a Medical Biophysics PhD student, right ? | Sep 20 22:41 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Don't give me a biography about Darwin. Tell me logic. | Sep 20 22:41 |
Balrog_ | (or a similar figure) | Sep 20 22:41 |
schestowitz | It's disappointing to think that there's no reason for asteroid to avoid our fragile and beautiful world | Sep 20 22:41 |
_Hicham_ | it did hit the earth | Sep 20 22:41 |
schestowitz | Many asteroid did | Sep 20 22:41 |
schestowitz | Many asteroids did | Sep 20 22:42 |
_Hicham_ | and so ? | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | Moon too | Sep 20 22:42 |
_Hicham_ | the point ? | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | Almost every planet | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | ~100 years ago a comet hit the Earth | Sep 20 22:42 |
_Hicham_ | do u believe in mutation ? | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | Led to big fired in Syberia | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | *fires | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: that's how DNA works | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | It can't replicate immaculately | Sep 20 22:42 |
schestowitz | That's a good thing | Sep 20 22:43 |
schestowitz | It permits improvement, not just degradation | Sep 20 22:43 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: See? That's your problem, you just pull yourself out of the main topic by switching to astrology and space in the nearest chance. | Sep 20 22:43 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : even thought DNA mutate, it does produce the same species | Sep 20 22:43 |
_Hicham_ | right ? | Sep 20 22:43 |
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Slashdot Linux Story | Forkable Linux Radio Ad Now On the Air In Texas http://tinyurl.com/mgtwaz | Sep 20 22:43 | |
schestowitz | Define species | Sep 20 22:43 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : species as set by biology | Sep 20 22:44 |
schestowitz | Race, species, animal, plant/animal are all the same things | Sep 20 22:44 |
schestowitz | The taxonomy changes because of some level of granularity | Sep 20 22:44 |
schestowitz | And ability to fertilise | Sep 20 22:44 |
schestowitz | You can mix races, not so much with species or animal types | Sep 20 22:45 |
_Hicham_ | we can't mix species | Sep 20 22:45 |
schestowitz | So it's accepted that depending on some similarity/proximity we can show what belongs where | Sep 20 22:45 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: How does that refute the existence of a God? | Sep 20 22:45 |
schestowitz | The last remaining type of 'humans' is homo spiens. We're almost all the same | Sep 20 22:45 |
schestowitz | Omar87: it doesn't | Sep 20 22:45 |
_Hicham_ | huh, ur saying it | Sep 20 22:46 |
schestowitz | It refutes some other things | Sep 20 22:46 |
schestowitz | Like age of Earth | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | we are all the same | Sep 20 22:46 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Then how does it relate here? | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | age of earth ? | Sep 20 22:46 |
schestowitz | Yes | Sep 20 22:46 |
schestowitz | We know roughly the chronology | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | age of earth is stated using Carbon14 properties | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | roughly | Sep 20 22:46 |
schestowitz | Which refutes biblical writings | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | not exactly | Sep 20 22:46 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Yes what? | Sep 20 22:46 |
_Hicham_ | what do biblical writings say ? | Sep 20 22:47 |
schestowitz | Some say it's like 6,000 years old | Sep 20 22:47 |
schestowitz | The judeo-christian anyway | Sep 20 22:47 |
_Hicham_ | no, it is more than that | Sep 20 22:47 |
schestowitz | Depends on interpretations | Sep 20 22:47 |
schestowitz | A lot of the bible is just a string of names | Sep 20 22:47 |
_Hicham_ | 6000 years is little time | Sep 20 22:47 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: LOL! Dinosaurs are only 6000 years old? That's hilarious. :) | Sep 20 22:48 |
schestowitz | Assuming it means anything at all. It's just arbitrary sounds that are put together, not something replicable like DNA code | Sep 20 22:48 |
schestowitz | Omar87: some people say that "God put the skeletons there" | Sep 20 22:48 |
schestowitz | "To test our faith" | Sep 20 22:48 |
_Hicham_ | DNA code is not arbitrary | Sep 20 22:48 |
_Hicham_ | just seems to be | Sep 20 22:48 |
schestowitz | It's very systematic | Sep 20 22:48 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Where did you get that from? | Sep 20 22:48 |
_Hicham_ | DNA code is very well done | Sep 20 22:49 |
schestowitz | Omar87: debates | Sep 20 22:49 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: agreed | Sep 20 22:49 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: What is? | Sep 20 22:49 |
schestowitz | It has been made longer and more complex | Sep 20 22:49 |
_Hicham_ | DNA mutation isn't 100% arbitrary either | Sep 20 22:49 |
schestowitz | But bacterium DNA is also super-complex for us | Sep 20 22:49 |
*DaemonFC has quit (Connection timed out) | Sep 20 22:49 | |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: when mixing egg and sperm you have more than just a random process | Sep 20 22:50 |
schestowitz | You have the merging of 'capable' DNA. | Sep 20 22:50 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : it is not really that random | Sep 20 22:50 |
schestowitz | Those that manage to reproduce and those amonfg the sperm that swim better | Sep 20 22:50 |
_Hicham_ | i'd rather say pseudo-random | Sep 20 22:50 |
_Hicham_ | but not completely | Sep 20 22:50 |
schestowitz | That's just scientifically speaking. | Sep 20 22:50 |
schestowitz | Nothing i s randon | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | "God does not play dice"--AEinstein | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | He used God as a metaphor BTW | Sep 20 22:51 |
_Hicham_ | exactly | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | SOme people delibrately misrepesent what he said | Sep 20 22:51 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Then how do you believe the universe was created at random? | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | He was an atehist too | Sep 20 22:51 |
_Hicham_ | nothing is arbitrary | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | Not even rand(); | Sep 20 22:51 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Worng. | Sep 20 22:51 |
schestowitz | Everything is pseudo-random | Sep 20 22:51 |
_Hicham_ | rand() is not random at all | Sep 20 22:52 |
schestowitz | There's a process to everything | Sep 20 22:52 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Albert wasn't atheist. | Sep 20 22:52 |
schestowitz | Everything is rhythic or prodictable | Sep 20 22:52 |
schestowitz | Entropy is tied to something | Sep 20 22:52 |
_Hicham_ | everything is predictable | Sep 20 22:52 |
schestowitz | Omar87: what was he then? Agnostic? | Sep 20 22:52 |
_Hicham_ | provided we have enough data | Sep 20 22:52 |
_Hicham_ | the problem is with having enough data | Sep 20 22:52 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Jewish. | Sep 20 22:52 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: welll.....: -) | Sep 20 22:53 |
schestowitz | In theorty | Sep 20 22:53 |
schestowitz | Omar87: it's a religion | Sep 20 22:53 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : yes, in theory | Sep 20 22:53 |
schestowitz | He was Semite | Sep 20 22:53 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: yes, but... | Sep 20 22:53 |
schestowitz | If you have infinity thern the entropy can be also infinity | Sep 20 22:53 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : u know very well that there is no infinity | Sep 20 22:53 |
_Hicham_ | infinity is just a mathematical concept | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | So in theory you can have the non-deterministic process invoked by an infinitely complex cause | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | _Hicham_: true | Sep 20 22:54 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Yes. | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | We deal with small numbers | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | We have just 10 fingers | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | So we have a decimal system | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | And we can't cope with large #s | Sep 20 22:54 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein (Ethnicity Jewish) | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | Like googol | Sep 20 22:54 |
schestowitz | Omar87: matter of interprettaion probably | Sep 20 22:55 |
schestowitz | Semantics | Sep 20 22:55 |
schestowitz | Like saying that Hitler was Christian | Sep 20 22:55 |
schestowitz | He rejected it while young | Sep 20 22:55 |
schestowitz | People are born without religion | Sep 20 22:55 |
schestowitz | Their parents have a religion | Sep 20 22:55 |
_Hicham_ | schestowitz : agree | Sep 20 22:56 |
_Hicham_ | but | Sep 20 22:56 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: I disagree. | Sep 20 22:56 |
schestowitz | Kids are unable to understand such concepts | Sep 20 22:56 |
_Hicham_ | if not influenced, what would be the result | Sep 20 22:56 |
_Hicham_ | that is the question | Sep 20 22:56 |
schestowitz | When they do, they can decide what to make of input | Sep 20 22:57 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: That's not true. | Sep 20 22:57 |
schestowitz | There cannot be many correct religions, either | Sep 20 22:57 |
schestowitz | They are not mutually inconsistent | Sep 20 22:57 |
schestowitz | Science is not a democracy, it's concensus based ona truth | Sep 20 22:57 |
_Hicham_ | i am talking about letting them choose | Sep 20 22:57 |
schestowitz | It's a symbiosis or fusion of one unified, cohesive explanation | Sep 20 22:57 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: People are born with religion. Some people just loose it due to some circumstances. | Sep 20 22:58 |
schestowitz | But religion is a mental process | Sep 20 22:58 |
Omar87 | _Hicham_: Most people don't let their kids choose. | Sep 20 22:58 |
schestowitz | WIthout thinking you can't have a religion | Sep 20 22:58 |
schestowitz | A newly-born baby has insticts | Sep 20 22:58 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: You can. | Sep 20 22:58 |
schestowitz | Like "find nipple, cry" | Sep 20 22:58 |
schestowitz | Then they listen to sounds and start seeing | Sep 20 22:59 |
schestowitz | They actually hear sounds like the moher's voice while in the ovaries | Sep 20 22:59 |
schestowitz | I didn't mean ovary | Sep 20 22:59 |
schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Female_anatomy.png | Sep 20 23:00 |
schestowitz | Complex biology.... | Sep 20 23:00 |
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 23:00 | |
schestowitz | Laying eggs is probably a more complex system | Sep 20 23:01 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: And how would that complex biology come out of nothing for no reason what so ever? | Sep 20 23:01 |
schestowitz | You then incubate outside the body | Sep 20 23:01 |
*Python132O has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Sep 20 23:01 | |
schestowitz | Omar87: why reason? | Sep 20 23:01 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Why not reason?? | Sep 20 23:01 |
schestowitz | Things happen for a reason only in the sense that one thing leads to another | Sep 20 23:01 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Not exactly. | Sep 20 23:02 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Actually, yes. Exactly. | Sep 20 23:02 |
*Python132O (i=iriz@unaffiliated/python1320) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 23:03 | |
Omar87 | schestowitz: No event can occur without a reason for it to occur. | Sep 20 23:03 |
schestowitz | It's all a chain | Sep 20 23:03 |
schestowitz | When time started | Sep 20 23:04 |
schestowitz | But we're still poor at it | Sep 20 23:04 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: How would this complex system last for millions of decades if there wasn't a reason for it to stay that way? | Sep 20 23:04 |
schestowitz | Despite being the only animal capable of introspection at this level, the universe is hard for us to understand | Sep 20 23:04 |
schestowitz | It will last for a long time to come | Sep 20 23:05 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: I agree on that. And that's my point. | Sep 20 23:05 |
schestowitz | Some theoreticians say the gravity from the expansion will lead to weird things, eventually | Sep 20 23:05 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: You don't need to know how your God looks like for you to believe him. | Sep 20 23:05 |
schestowitz | But there are many things we don't know yet, like the stuff found at the edges and black hole with the option of wormholes | Sep 20 23:06 |
Omar87 | schestowitzL You just need to understand that if God didn't create you, you wouldn't have existed. | Sep 20 23:06 |
schestowitz | Also, the universe may be curved, so we can't see beyond the 3rd dimension, still. We can do maths on it and find projections to 3-D though. | Sep 20 23:06 |
schestowitz | Omar87: the bible says God looks like me and you | Sep 20 23:07 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: The bible is wrong. | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | Some bibles anyway.... most do | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | Even the most ancient ones | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | Some show Gods looking like animals | Sep 20 23:07 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Would you like a proof for thaT? | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | Or part man, part animals | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | I don't need proof of it | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | I agree with you | Sep 20 23:07 |
zilog | we can also see in the 4th dimention Roy, that being time. | Sep 20 23:07 |
schestowitz | Not just time, Mutex | Sep 20 23:08 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: There are 25 versions of the bible, none of them agrees with any of the rest. So, which one should we believe? | Sep 20 23:08 |
schestowitz | None | Sep 20 23:08 |
schestowitz | It has some historical references | Sep 20 23:08 |
schestowitz | Some are true | Sep 20 23:08 |
schestowitz | Like all sort of genocides and stuff | Sep 20 23:09 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: However, I as a Muslim believe in the Bilble, Torah and the Quran. (However, not the Bible and Torah we have now) | Sep 20 23:10 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: If you go take any copy of the Quran on earth and compare it with any other version on earth, you'll find them totally identical. | Sep 20 23:11 |
schestowitz | http://d0od.blogspot.com/2009/09/5-excellent-empathy-themes.html | Sep 20 23:14 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Is it really better than Pidgin? | Sep 20 23:15 |
schestowitz | I've used niether | Sep 20 23:17 |
schestowitz | GTK..... | Sep 20 23:17 |
schestowitz | And I don't IM. | Sep 20 23:17 |
schestowitz | Firefox's Flash check drives 10M to Adobe's download < http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/319074/firefox_flash_check_drives_10m_adobe_download?rid=-219 > | Sep 20 23:17 |
schestowitz | Heh. | Sep 20 23:17 |
cubezzz | that reminds me I need to give gnash a try | Sep 20 23:19 |
schestowitz | I hear it's good now (for videos) | Sep 20 23:21 |
schestowitz | Omar87: when everyone agrees on a text, we'll have a LOT less to argue about in this world | Sep 20 23:23 |
schestowitz | Mostly territory and food and water then...... | Sep 20 23:23 |
schestowitz | I want to try more wms.. http://linuxcritic.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/fluxconf-configuring-fluxbox-the-graphical-way/ | Sep 20 23:26 |
Omar87 | schestowitz: Unfortunately, of not all the world agrees on trivial logic, then how on earth would they agree on a text? | Sep 20 23:29 |
Omar87 | if* not all.. | Sep 20 23:30 |
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 23:45 | |
schestowitz | Heh. http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/20/blathering-on-about-feminism/ | Sep 20 23:50 |
*schestowitz_ () has joined #boycottnovell | Sep 20 23:51 | |
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 20 23:51:12 2009 | ||
*Now talking on #boycottnovell | Sep 20 23:51 | |
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Communication about anything, including Microsoft, Novell, and Free software [publicly logged] | Sep 20 23:51 | |
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Fri Jun 12 18:24:05 2009 | Sep 20 23:51 | |
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Sep 20 23:51 | |
*Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connect | Sep 20 23:51 | |
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 23:57 | |
*oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Sep 20 23:57 | |
schestowitz | Real-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/09/real-time-earth-wallpaper-for-linux.html | Sep 20 23:59 |
schestowitz | Real-Time Earth Wallpaper For Linux http://webupd8.blogspot.com/2009/09/real-time-earth-wallpaper-for-linux.html | Sep 20 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!