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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 22nd, 2009

tessierIf the US wanted the economy and infrastructure destroyed they would have simply let the communists have it. The communists have done far more damage to the economy than agent orange possibly could have.Oct 22 00:00
tessierI drove 2000km on a 100cc scooter there. I know something about the infrastructure (or lack thereof still 35 years later).Oct 22 00:00
fewabut yes tessier the US backed pol potOct 22 00:00
tessierYou would think they could have done some rebuilding in that time.Oct 22 00:01
fewaand massively bombed CambodiaOct 22 00:01
tessierfewa: So...the US supplised them with all of those AK-47's?Oct 22 00:01
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tessierNo doubt the US bombed Cambodia. The Ho Chi Minh trail ran through it.Oct 22 00:01
fewaabout bombing Nixon: "A massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. Anything that flies on anything that moves."Oct 22 00:02
tessierWish my wife were here to tell you something about Vietnam and Cambodia. She is in Westminster (little Sai Gon) shopping right now. She is tr1nity over on #kernel-panic.Oct 22 00:02
tessierfewa: What do you think the communists intended to do after Vietnam if they took it easily?Oct 22 00:02
fewathey were not commjnistsOct 22 00:03
mutxill just read a history book, or watch on of the thousands of doco's explaining the war, Oct 22 00:03
tessierWho wasn't? Oct 22 00:03
fewa"We are not communists ... we are revolutionaries" who do not 'belong to the commonly accepted grouping of communist Indochina."(Ieng Sary, 1977, quoted by Vickery, Cambodia: 1978-1983, p. 288).Oct 22 00:03
fewa 22 00:03
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tessierfewa: So...who were these guys? 22 00:04
tessierAnd why does it say Pol Pot was their leader? And why was my grand-mother in law a member of the communist party of Cambodia?Oct 22 00:04
mutxso tessier you are saying veitnam remained communist, even after the US went there to fight (and lose), the war againt communism, but after they "left" communism still existed, but the US won ?Oct 22 00:06
tessierAnd why were the Cambodians all carrying AK-47's if the US supplied them? All of the other counter-revolutionary forces supplied by the US in the world carried American gear (Central America, etc)Oct 22 00:07
tessierI didn't say they won. I said they won every battle they fought but left the job unfinished due to lack of support at home. South Vietnam was not communist after the Paris accords. Then the North invaded. The US tried to help. But the people of the US changed their minds halfway through so in 1973 the US left. In 1975 the final units of the South Vietnamese army were defeated. The US evacuated the few remaining personel and civilians. ForOct 22 00:09
mutxthe US changed their mind because they could see that the US was getting the ass'es kicked. Oct 22 00:10
fewaThe US has to invade south vietnamOct 22 00:10
tessiermutx: Nope.Oct 22 00:11
fewamutx, the US had vastly more destructive weaponsOct 22 00:11
fewaand decimated large swath of jungle with agent orangeOct 22 00:12
tessierLike I said, they won every battle and took out a whole lot more of the enemy.Oct 22 00:12
tessierUnfortunately human lives to the North was so much water to be poured down the drain.Oct 22 00:12
mutxyes, more destructive weapons, yet they still lost, against veit con on pushbikes.Oct 22 00:12
tessierHo himself said it. He would just keep marching meat into the south until they won or they ran out of warm bodies.Oct 22 00:12
tessierWould you have preferred the US had gone nuclear? They certainly would have won at that point. Wouldn't have been much left to win though. What's the point in that case?Oct 22 00:13
fewathere was great human cost in the southOct 22 00:13
fewathe sourth vietnamese resistanceOct 22 00:13
tessierIt was hard to know what the Soviet Union would tolerate in trying to win.Oct 22 00:13
tessierYes, there was.Oct 22 00:14
tessierUnfortunately, the Vietnamese in general are pretty corrupt as a society. :( They sold each other out left and right. They were terrible allies. :(Oct 22 00:14
tessierAnd it continues today.Oct 22 00:14
tessierWe can't import anything into Vietnam without having to bribe their stupid customs officials.Oct 22 00:14
tessierI would like to be able to do more business there and help them out but they are just beyond help.Oct 22 00:14
fewatessier, they were not alliesOct 22 00:14
fewafrance was the allyOct 22 00:15
tessierfewa: South Vietnam was supposedly allies but you may be right from a certain point of view. Oct 22 00:15
fewait was French interests, colonialismOct 22 00:15
tessierFrance was the ally of the US in the Vietnam war?Oct 22 00:15
tessierFrance was long since out of the picture. Paris accords etc.Oct 22 00:15
fewait was the french that had been kicked outOct 22 00:15
tessierYeah, in 1954 or whatever.Oct 22 00:15
fewaand the US couldn't see a country gain independence like thatOct 22 00:16
fewaI just don't see why they would want anything to do with US forcesOct 22 00:16
fewahence corruptionOct 22 00:16
tessierWait, that was the Geneva conference. The Paris accords ended the war for the US in 1973.Oct 22 00:16
tessierfewa: Huh? The US wanted an independent South Vietnam. And they got it for a while.Oct 22 00:17
fewathey wanted a US client state in south vietnamOct 22 00:17
fewalike they imposed in Greece for exampleOct 22 00:18
tessierGreece is an independent country afaik.Oct 22 00:18
fewathere awa 22 00:18
tessierFrance gave up all of their colonies throughout the 1900's. If Ho had been a little more patient he could have spared a lot of lives.Oct 22 00:18
fewa"civil war"Oct 22 00:19
fewawith massive UK and US interventionismOct 22 00:19
tessierYou seem to think any time the US supports democracy vs communism the US wants a client state.Oct 22 00:19
fewathey doOct 22 00:19
tessierSo did the US get it?Oct 22 00:19
tessierOr was it the UK?Oct 22 00:19
fewathey set up dictaitorshipsOct 22 00:20
fewaand when they set up 'democracies' those institutions are condemned as soon as they go against the USOct 22 00:20
fewalook at palistineOct 22 00:20
fewawhen they voted for hamas the US condemned itOct 22 00:20
tessierOr was it the UK?Oct 22 00:20
fewaimmediately declared it "undemocratic"Oct 22 00:21
tessieroops, repeated a line accidentallyOct 22 00:21
tessierYou change subjects rather quickly. We've gone from Vietnam to Cambodia to France to Greece to Palistine...Oct 22 00:21
fewa 22 00:21
fewaCIA-backed coupOct 22 00:22
tessierHamas seems to want to kill jews rather badly. It's hard to imagine how they would be democratic.Oct 22 00:22
tessierThe CIA supported lots of anti-communist efforts all over the world.Oct 22 00:23
fewait ended in 1975Oct 22 00:23
fewathe CIA supported alot of vicious dictaitor around the worldOct 22 00:23
tessierSometimes you have to pick the lesser of two evils. It isn't simple.Oct 22 00:23
mutxlike george bushOct 22 00:23
fewaVenezuela, Chile, Argentina, NicaraguaOct 22 00:23
fewaall overturnedOct 22 00:24
tessierI think I would prefer to have an evil dictator running a neighboring country than a communist who would be just as ruthless but would allow nukes to be placed in their country on behalf of the Soviets.Oct 22 00:24
fewawhile the US stragles their economies and supports the dictaitorsOct 22 00:24
fewathats how the US kept Saddam Hussain in powerOct 22 00:24
tessierThat was the thinking and looking at the situation back then I can't say I disagree with it.Oct 22 00:24
fewawhat about a nationalist?Oct 22 00:24
tessierYep. The US is still cleaning up after the mess the cold war left.Oct 22 00:25
fewaa locally-run power?Oct 22 00:25
fewathis is happening in south americaOct 22 00:25
tessierLet Iraq be run by a communist or a crazy nationalist. At least the nationalist wasn't out to destroy us.Oct 22 00:25
tessierNot immediately anyway. That's about all one can ask for.Oct 22 00:25
fewaVenezuela helped Argentina but its way out of the oppressive IMFOct 22 00:25
fewaBolivia has amazing democracyOct 22 00:25
fewareal democracyOct 22 00:26
fewa"crazy nationalist"?Oct 22 00:26
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fewahow about George Bush?Oct 22 00:26
fewais he a crazy nationalist?Oct 22 00:26
fewainvading Iraq for no reason at allOct 22 00:26
tessierI didn't like Bush either but as far as nationalism goes he was nothing compared to Saddam and others who have graced the pages of history books.Oct 22 00:26
tessierI agree that invading Iraq was a huge error in judgement.Oct 22 00:27
fewatessier, Saddam was a puppet of the USOct 22 00:27
fewa"error in judgement"Oct 22 00:27
tessierfewa: In the beginning. Not in the later years. Oct 22 00:27
fewatessier, yes he wasOct 22 00:27
mutxno he as certainly a vicious dictaitor supported by the CIA thoughOct 22 00:27
fewaClinton bouyed him with the sanctionsOct 22 00:27
fewakept him in powerOct 22 00:27
tessierHe sure didn't seem to do what the US or many other countries were asking of him for being a puppet.Oct 22 00:27
tessierAnd how Bush has come out of it looking like an idiot and really hurt his party.Oct 22 00:28
tessierDoesn't seem to have worked out very well for him.Oct 22 00:28
tessiers/how/now/Oct 22 00:28
fewahurt his party.Oct 22 00:28
fewahahahahaOct 22 00:28
fewayes, he did corrupt the repusOct 22 00:28
tessierThey lost a lot of elections. That's not usually what they want. Or do you think that is all part of his master plan?Oct 22 00:28
fewabut they went along with itOct 22 00:28
fewaevery step of the wayOct 22 00:28
fewadems tooOct 22 00:28
tessierWhat will be Bush's next move towards world domination?Oct 22 00:29
fewaand the media still gives air time to chenyOct 22 00:29
tessier9/11 messed with a lot of people's heads and made it easier for them. They took advantage of the situation. To their detriment, it turned out.Oct 22 00:29
fewaand roveOct 22 00:29
tessierI haven't heard from either one of them much lately. They are laying low hoping Obama doesn't sick an investigation on them.Oct 22 00:29
fewaThe state dept will not leave IraqOct 22 00:29
tessierIsn't Hamas is an acronym of Harakat al Mawqawama al Islamiyya meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement" ?Oct 22 00:29
fewaits off the tableOct 22 00:30
tessierI don't think they should either.Oct 22 00:30
schestowitztessier: did you watch Year One?Oct 22 00:30
schestowitzI've just watched it, it's a good documentaryOct 22 00:30
tessierI'm tired of leaving other countries as failed states. Now that the US has gotten involved they should be committed to finishing it and getting Iraq back on its feet.Oct 22 00:30
tessierschestowitz: About the Khmer Rouge?Oct 22 00:30
fewaeast timorOct 22 00:31
fewatessier, the US is a failed stateOct 22 00:31
fewathere is a chomsky book about thatOct 22 00:32
tessierA group named "Islamic Resistance Movement" would seem to be more interested in spreading religious nuttery.Oct 22 00:32
tessierfewa: What I'm looking at outside my window says otherwise. You must have an odd definition of a failed state.Oct 22 00:32
fewaFailed States: The abuse of Power and the Assult on DemocracyOct 22 00:32
tessierNo, that is not the generally accepted definition.Oct 22 00:32
fewathere is great freedom Oct 22 00:32
fewabut there is little democracyOct 22 00:32
fewathe US is a rogue stateOct 22 00:32
fewaits a good bookOct 22 00:33
schestowitztessier: this: 22 00:33
schestowitzIt contains more imagery than information thoughOct 22 00:33
tessierschestowitz: Thanks, I'll check it outOct 22 00:33
schestowitzANd puts blame with Kissinger and NixonOct 22 00:33
schestowitzIt's from around 1975Oct 22 00:33
fewa 22 00:34
schestowitzIt's all new to me... history of the wars in south east AsiaOct 22 00:34
fewa 22 00:34
tessierschestowitz: Seems that everything that has gone wrong with the world is the fault of the US government. What coincidence. If only the rest of the world could run their affairs better and not be so easily corrupted. ;)Oct 22 00:35
fewa 22 00:35
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schestowitztessier: nopeOct 22 00:35
tessierMeanwhile, the Muslim world remains in disarray and confusion nearly 100 years after their failed attempt at world domination. They should have been more patient. Just 50 years later the rest of the world would be total pushovers for the Americans. Oct 22 00:35
schestowitzThere are many angles to look atOct 22 00:35
tessierschestowitz: Indeed. And it is far from simple.Oct 22 00:35
fewatessier, you should read the book, as you are proposing that the US has supreme authority to invade and interfere in "failed states"Oct 22 00:36
tessierYet there are lots of blanket statements being thrown around clearly pointing fingers as if were as simple as a bank robbery.Oct 22 00:36
hexx 22 00:36
hexxmay find this interestingOct 22 00:36
mutxthe US does _NOT_ have a very good record of winning wars, Oct 22 00:36
tessierfewa: I don't propose any such thing.Oct 22 00:36
fewa<tessier> I'm tired of leaving other countries as failed states. Now that the US has gotten involved they should be committed to finishing it and getting Iraq back on its feet.Oct 22 00:36
fewawatch this: 22 00:37
tessiermutx: Then why wasn't everyone else victorious and the US not a problem for them?Oct 22 00:37
fewamutx, what does it mean to "win" a war?Oct 22 00:37
mutxgee fewa, you dont know ???? Oct 22 00:37
tessiermutx: I mean, if the US lost a lot of wars...why the problems with other countries? Why aren't they leading happy, victorious, prosperous, free, happy lives?Oct 22 00:37
hexxhow do private message in here?Oct 22 00:38
hexxanyone?Oct 22 00:39
mutxthey usually are, so how did the US go on the COLD war, or the war on druge, or in nam, or Iraq or Oct 22 00:39
fewatessier, A Few Words on Non-InterventionOct 22 00:39
fewatessier, you are arguing that they hate us for our freedomOct 22 00:40
hexxguys, i just want to share this article, i dont have much timeOct 22 00:40
hexx 22 00:40
tessierNon-intervention is a double-edged sword.Oct 22 00:40
fewasuch arrogenceOct 22 00:40
hexxhope its useful, im outOct 22 00:40
schestowitzhexx: thanks a lot, got itOct 22 00:40
hexxkk, ywOct 22 00:40
tessierSometimes you attack when you didn't have to (Iraq) and sometimes you sit and do nothing until there is a disaster (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).Oct 22 00:40
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fewathey are fairly similar events actuallyOct 22 00:41
fewaboth "preventative wars"Oct 22 00:41
fewa"preventative attacks"Oct 22 00:41
fewaone instituted by the enemy, Japan, one instituted by the good guysOct 22 00:41
schestowitz"preventative attacks" usually means coupOct 22 00:42
fewaboth will live in infamyOct 22 00:42
mutxthe CIA knew about pearl harbour, why do you all the valuable assets (aircraft carriers) were put to sea the day before ?Oct 22 00:42
fewapearl harbor was not a coupOct 22 00:42
schestowitzANd "instability in the region" is code phrase for "we don't like what happens there"Oct 22 00:42
fewa"stability" == obedienceOct 22 00:42
fewa"jobs" == profitsOct 22 00:42
schestowitzThe US overthrew over 50 regimesOct 22 00:42
schestowitzWhether all were justified is a separate questionOct 22 00:42
fewaIraq had no justificationOct 22 00:43
fewaUKOct 22 00:43
schestowitzBut all of this was unknown to many people before information opened up a bitOct 22 00:43
fewaUK's involvement eitherOct 22 00:43
schestowitzInc. historyOct 22 00:43
schestowitzfewa: "job creation, it's all about job creation..." --PalinOct 22 00:43
fewawell its not always used as a euphamismOct 22 00:44
tessiermutx: I'm pretty sure the CIA did not know about Pearl Harbor. You seem to think they are like God or something.Oct 22 00:44
schestowitzIt's funny when talking points collideOct 22 00:44
fewalike "green jobs" that a very valid concept Obama was talking aboutOct 22 00:44
fewabut mearly talkOct 22 00:44
tessierschestowitz: Were *any* justified?Oct 22 00:44
fewawell --- he did get in alot of weatherization money in the stimulus billOct 22 00:44
mutxsorry it was hoover (FBI) not the cia.Oct 22 00:44
fewatessier, watch: 22 00:45
tessierThe FBI knew about Pearl Harbor? If anyone it would be more likely to be the CIA. The FBI isn't set up for operations or intelligence on foreign governments.Oct 22 00:45
schestowitztessier: I don't knowOct 22 00:45
tessierfewa: Seen it. He's right a bout a few things but pretty nutty on others.Oct 22 00:46
schestowitzThere needs to be a justification/defence for eachOct 22 00:46
schestowitzAnd it requires a lot of convincing evidence, not just the "he's a bad guy" thingOct 22 00:46
tessierschestowitz: There is. It's a matter of whether you think it is valid. And there opinions differ vastly.Oct 22 00:46
tessierschestowitz: It's funny to travel the world and get peoples opinions of stuff like this. The average person is very friendly and understanding of other countries, cultures, religions, etc. But the fact that the extremists are the only ones yelling in our faces on a daily basis can give one a weird perspective.Oct 22 00:48
fewatessier, not much of a response, but okOct 22 00:48
tessierI bet you could take the typical Muslim and the typical Jew and put them together for tea (assuming they spoke the same language) and have a perfectly fine time. But put them both on a podium in front of TV cameras in their home countries and things go nuts.Oct 22 00:48
tessierfewa: Not much I can say. It's not like I have Chomsky here to question.Oct 22 00:49
schestowitzYes, people get along usuallyOct 22 00:52
schestowitzExcept those blinded by some extreme faithOct 22 00:52
schestowitzANd it gets accentuated with ageOct 22 00:52
schestowitzBut anyway, all of this is intended to help learn about the presentOct 22 00:53
schestowitzFor example, the history that led to certain resentmentOct 22 00:53
schestowitzI don't remember history I learned at school and few people doOct 22 00:53
schestowitzBut most people do get their 'history' lessons from language and implies statements in the newsOct 22 00:54
mutxthats because news and everything that happens is "history". Oct 22 00:54
schestowitzStuff like, "why do they hate us" or "<this country> is an irrational hater"..Oct 22 00:54
fewathe propagandaOct 22 00:55
schestowitzmutx: going a longer way back thoughOct 22 00:55
schestowitzThere are omissionsOct 22 00:55
schestowitzIn IT, for example, MSFT does this tooOct 22 00:55
schestowitzThey rewrite historyOct 22 00:55
schestowitzThe likes of Enderle go about trivialising crimesOct 22 00:55
schestowitzSo younger generations forget bad behaviourOct 22 00:55
schestowitzLook at RockefellerOct 22 00:55
schestowitzLook at Gates, whose violations people can hardly recallOct 22 00:56
mutxyou cant "rewrite" history, you can only lie about it, or not say all that happend, but what happend, happendOct 22 00:56
schestowitzLook how fast people forget genocide of the Indians or whateverOct 22 00:56
mutxyou cant change what actually happend, no matter how many times you say it did not.Oct 22 00:56
schestowitzMutiny in India too....Oct 22 00:56
schestowitzEven Indians probably don't know much about itOct 22 00:56
schestowitzmutx: playing semantics, I see...Oct 22 00:56
mutxwell if you call facts and truth semantics, then I suppose so.Oct 22 00:57
mutxbut I cant see how you can change history, but saying something did not happen or happend differently, one is history the other is fiction.Oct 22 00:58
schestowitzHistory as recorededOct 22 00:58
schestowitzIn people's minds/literatureOct 22 00:58
schestowitzMinds rotOct 22 00:58
schestowitzLiterature rots more slowlyOct 22 00:58
mutxand yet, the facts and what really happened never changes.Oct 22 00:59
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fewaschestowitz, on genocide of the indians, that is actually a rare exception IMHOOct 22 01:12
fewain the us at leastOct 22 01:13
fewayou may be referring to east indiaOct 22 01:13
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Chief Attacks #GaryMcKinnon 22 01:23
schestowitzfewa: no, both placesOct 22 01:24
schestowitzUK and European-Americans separatelyOct 22 01:24
schestowitzJust the history of genocide more or less.Oct 22 01:24
fewain the 60s the atrocities against american indians was celebratedOct 22 01:24
schestowitzWe remember more recent ones and forget others.Oct 22 01:24
fewaor simply ignoredOct 22 01:24
schestowitzSome were total exterminationsOct 22 01:24
fewain the popular movements of the 60s this changed, and now it is awknowledged, at least to some degreeOct 22 01:25
fewaand while quite severe, it was not a total exterminationOct 22 01:25
fewait really depends on how successful the alienation of society isOct 22 01:26
schestowitzThat's what I read recentlyOct 22 01:26
fewalike how severe it was, and still is, in the US's southOct 22 01:26
schestowitzThat before the 1960s in academia you could not talk about the American-IndiansOct 22 01:26
fewaJacksonOct 22 01:26
fewas trail of tears was celebratedOct 22 01:26
fewaor there were giant biographies of him without a single mention of itOct 22 01:27
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fewawhere the semiole indians were moved many states to Oklahoma I believeOct 22 01:27
fewathis had a big role in the Spanish-American warOct 22 01:27
fewabecause Native americans were seeking skelter in Flordia, which was spanishOct 22 01:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] A chemist describes in small words the insane stunt #Trafigura actually pulled on that ship #wikileaks @arusbridgerOct 22 01:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] RT A chemist describes in small words the insane stunt #Trafigura actually pulled on that ship #wikileaks @arusbridgerOct 22 01:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell Spreads #Fear to Market Its Products #fudOct 22 01:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT A chemist describes in small words the insane stunt #Trafigura actually pulled on that ship #wikileaks @arusbridgerOct 22 01:52
tessierFrom my first day at Treasury, PowerPoint decks would arrive from GM (we quickly concluded that no decision seemed to be made at GM without one) requesting approvals. We were appalled by the absence of sound analysis provided to justify these expenditures.Oct 22 01:55
tessier 22 01:55
tessierReminds me of "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint" and the Columbia accident.Oct 22 01:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] If you are a woman in Open Source, you will eventually give a talk about being a woman in Open Source. HT @skudOct 22 02:04
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yuhongNotice the similarities between this anti-trust exhibit and these blog entries by a MS employee:Oct 22 02:08
yuhong 22 02:08
yuhong 22 02:08
yuhong 22 02:08
yuhongNotice the similarities?Oct 22 02:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vista7 is Not a Game #windowsOct 22 02:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Federal court throws out erotic services lawsuit against Craigslist clear §230 immunity 22 02:11
schestowitzHey, yuhongOct 22 02:15
yuhongHey, did you notice the three links I just entered above?Oct 22 02:16
schestowitzFunny that they write about it in 2004Oct 22 02:17
schestowitzAny reason?Oct 22 02:17
yuhongNot sure, but my point is that did you notice the similarities?Oct 22 02:17
schestowitzfewa: just posted 22 02:18
schestowitzyuhong: I didn't look closelyOct 22 02:18
yuhongBetween this anti-trust exhibit and the blog articles.Oct 22 02:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Heard a local radio talking about Windows 7, compared to Vista it's great, but then compared to Vista even a ZX81 looks next gen.Oct 22 02:18
yuhongYep, it is funny how Larry Osterman's blog articles on AARD are similar to an email by Aaron Reynolds himself that was revealed during the anti-trust lawsuit.Oct 22 02:20
schestowitzSo what can be derived from all that?Oct 22 02:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Want to read a site with non Microsoft software solutions? Forget Windows 7 and try Linux 22 02:21
yuhongAlso, read some of the comments to Larry Osterman's blog article.Oct 22 02:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #TSA confirmation hearing only fields softball questions thinks DNA on everyone adds #security 65:30Oct 22 02:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Windows 7 , I wonder how long it will be before Microsoft wants you to spend again on 8?Oct 22 02:22
schestowitz 22 02:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Windows 7 sins - 22 02:23
yuhongParticularly interesting is this one:Oct 22 02:24
yuhong 22 02:24
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yuhong"One thing to keep in mind in reading the document (and I read most of it) is that there are two sets of voices quoted. One is the technical team (Phil Barrett, Aaron Reynolds, etc). And there's the management team (BradSi, etc).Oct 22 02:24
yuhongThe technical team is almost entirely pointing out valid technical reasons why running Windows on DR-DOS is a bad idea. The management team's the people who are trying to find non-technical reasons to kill DR-DOS.Oct 22 02:24
yuhongI'm a technical guy, not a management guy (as if it's not obvious at this point). I see the technical reasons and understand them. I don't necessarily see (and I don't agree with) the non-technical reasons. "Oct 22 02:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] #TSA confirmation hearing only fields softball questions uncandidly asks for DNA on all citizens 65:30Oct 22 02:24
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schestowitzyuhong: BradSi is a criminalOct 22 02:25
yuhongI know.Oct 22 02:26
schestowitzI'm surprised he's still out there in Ignition Partners and stuffOct 22 02:26
schestowitzHe's responsible for many of Microsoft's offencesOct 22 02:26
schestowitzIncluding the anti-DR stuffOct 22 02:26
schestowitznot just AARDOct 22 02:26
yuhongLarry Osterman was not, and he was not even on the Windows team.Oct 22 02:26
schestowitzGoogle "brad silverberg"Oct 22 02:27
schestowitzI'm sure he's familiar with BN by nowOct 22 02:27
schestowitzHe thought he left his trash behind in the pastOct 22 02:27
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schestowitzHe knows what he Did Last Summer(TM)Oct 22 02:28
yuhong"Did Last Summer(TM)" funny.Oct 22 02:29
schestowitzBTW, I was surprised to find another white-collar criminal, Carl Icahn, in the latest news about the bankers' robberyOct 22 02:29
yuhongAnd on PSI and T3, do you remember Amdhel?Oct 22 02:29
yuhongThe vendor of IBM mainframe clones.Oct 22 02:29
schestowitzRevenge time for I.B.M.; 22 02:30
schestowitzA day or so before Vista 7Oct 22 02:31
schestowitzIBM's Sutor called for Ubuntu launch parties to foil MS'sOct 22 02:31
yuhongYep, I recently linked to IBM's MS free initiave response to Win7.Oct 22 02:31
schestowitzGoogle will make bis announcement tomorrowOct 22 02:31
schestowitzMicrosoft to deliver results 10PM GMTOct 22 02:31
yuhongBut my point is what T3 is doing now has some precedent.Oct 22 02:32
schestowitz 22 02:32
fewa 22 02:33
yuhongAnd that precedent existed long before MS even existed.Oct 22 02:34
yuhongWhen IBM was considered evil.Oct 22 02:34
yuhongNow they are mostly reformed and the 31-bit to 64-bit transition in 2000 killed Amdhal and Hitachi who decided not to clone the new architecture.Oct 22 02:35
yuhongYes, IBM mainframes moved to 64-bit back in 2000.Oct 22 02:36
*DaemonFC (i=Ryan@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 02:38
yuhongAnd 31-bit is NOT a typo.Oct 22 02:39
fewalolOct 22 02:41
schestowitz[02:34] <yuhong> When IBM was considered evil.Oct 22 02:41
schestowitzwas?Oct 22 02:41
yuhongYes, it was the subject of anti-trust probes for years, and that long before ms even existed.Oct 22 02:43
DaemonFCschestowitz: AMD and Nvidia are saying there will be at least 20 DirectX 11 titles out before second quarter of 2010Oct 22 02:44
yuhongFor example, look at the 1956 consent decree against IBM.Oct 22 02:44
DaemonFCI'm thinking they'll have to include some DirectX 9/10 support in those thoughOct 22 02:44
DaemonFCXP and Vista usage share is going to be a factor, and the XBOX 360 only understands DirectX 9 and a subset of 10Oct 22 02:44
schestowitzFPS boredomOct 22 02:45
DaemonFCMicrosoft should be about ready to show off a new console anyway within 1-2 yearsOct 22 02:45
yuhongYep, fortunately most games and graphic cards are backward compatible.Oct 22 02:45
schestowitzDaemonFC: no money to spareOct 22 02:46
DaemonFCyuhong, They can fall back to DirectX 9 and only use 10 and 11 as a supersetOct 22 02:46
DaemonFCthey've done that to accomodate XP users in the pastOct 22 02:46
yuhongA good book on this is "Big Blue: IBM's Use and Abuse of Power" from 1986.Oct 22 02:46
yuhongDaemonFC: That is exactly what I said.Oct 22 02:47
yuhong 22 02:47
schestowitz I'm sure users of 'the bong' (both of them) will be curious abut thisOct 22 02:47
JPerlowwow, I go out for dinner and suddenly the channel gets interestingOct 22 02:48
schestowitzJPerlow: what topic?Oct 22 02:48
schestowitzIBM antitrust?Oct 22 02:48
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JPerlowreading the entire log, royOct 22 02:48
schestowitzyuhong: it's not a "was"Oct 22 02:48
schestowitzThey are problematic in different ways, stillOct 22 02:48
schestowitzLike swpat lobbyOct 22 02:48
yuhongI know.Oct 22 02:49
schestowitzThey also have a sort of monopoly on console chipsOct 22 02:49
yuhongAnd my point that the T3 lawsuit had some precedent that existed long before MS even existed.Oct 22 02:50
schestowitz 22 02:50
yuhongWhen IBM was truly the evil monopolist.Oct 22 02:50
schestowitzGroklaw's analysis of mysql is quite paranoid IMHOOct 22 02:50
schestowitz"RMS withstanding"Oct 22 02:50
schestowitzAs in, "let's conveniently ignore him"Oct 22 02:51
schestowitzALso, Asay is not in cahoots with the VoleOct 22 02:51
JPerlowwho the hell is the Vole?Oct 22 02:51
schestowitz 22 02:51
schestowitz 22 02:51
schestowitz 22 02:52
schestowitz 22 02:52
schestowitz"Oct 22 02:52
JPerlowwhy don't you just say Microsoft?Oct 22 02:52
schestowitz#Oct 22 02:52
schestowitz# PR Bunny (also known as Spin Paramedic) - a Spin DoctorOct 22 02:52
schestowitz"Oct 22 02:52
schestowitzIt's funnier the way INQ says itOct 22 02:53
schestowitz"# Open Sauce - Open Source"Oct 22 02:53
schestowitz"# Chipzilla - Intel, coined by Terry Shannon, as known as Charlie Matco [25]"Oct 22 02:53
schestowitz"# Chimpzilla - AMD"Oct 22 02:53
schestowitz"# Mozzarella Foundation - Mozilla Foundation"Oct 22 02:53
schestowitzHaha!Oct 22 02:53
schestowitzIt's always funnyOct 22 02:53
yuhongFunny!Oct 22 02:54
JPerlowa german with a sense of humor, how uniqueOct 22 02:54
schestowitzINQ is BritishOct 22 02:54
schestowitzMikeOct 22 02:54
yuhongFunny indeed.Oct 22 02:54
fewaFox news is in a halarous positionOct 22 02:55
JPerlowI was referring to you. :)Oct 22 02:55
fewathey are against the administratiorOct 22 02:55
fewaand the administration is looking to boycott themOct 22 02:55
schestowitz 22 02:55
schestowitzfewa: boycott Fox?Oct 22 02:56
*aishumythili has quit ("Page closed")Oct 22 02:56
fewaboycott news wiseOct 22 02:56
fewano interviewsOct 22 02:56
schestowitzAh..Oct 22 02:56
fewaas the media is highly reliant on the government for newsOct 22 02:56
schestowitzThat would be like "boycotting rape"Oct 22 02:56
yuhongAnyway, my point is that the issues T3 raised existed long before MS even existed.Oct 22 02:57
fewalol, 30 senators voted for rapeOct 22 02:57
schestowitzWith Fox there needn't be an explicit embargoOct 22 02:57
fewadid you see that schestowitz ?Oct 22 02:57
schestowitzIt's funny how Fox brings people in only to shout at themOct 22 02:57
schestowitzfewa: /for/ rape?Oct 22 02:57
fewa 22 02:57
fewa30 GOP Senators Vote to Defend Gang RapeOct 22 02:57
schestowitzHeh.Oct 22 02:57
schestowitzWhat is this, Congo?Oct 22 02:57
schestowitzOh.Oct 22 02:58
schestowitzMerceneriesOct 22 02:58
fewaa military contractor put in a line in the contract that supposedly said that if you were gang rape you couldn't sueOct 22 02:58
schestowitzYeah, beat me to itOct 22 02:58
fewaand Al Franken proposed a ban on the practiceOct 22 02:58
schestowitzNot as the headline suggestsOct 22 02:58
fewaas this women was gang rapedOct 22 02:58
fewaand was told she couldn't sueOct 22 02:58
yuhongAnd, BTW, to this day I still wonder what would happen if IBM was able to license CP/M-86 from Digital Research back in 1980.Oct 22 02:58
fewathats the type of contract tyrannyOct 22 02:58
fewawhy contracts are not a panaceaOct 22 02:59
schestowitz"Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzHere are those who vote to protect a corporation over a victim of rape:Oct 22 02:59
JPerlowyuhong: I suppose I'd still be using Visicalc.Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzAlexander (R-TN)Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzBarrasso (R-WY)Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzBond (R-MO)Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzBrownback (R-KS)Oct 22 02:59
fewaDaily show had a halarous segment on itOct 22 02:59
schestowitz"Oct 22 02:59
schestowitzNot the same as them suggesting legalising rapeOct 22 02:59
yuhongI mean, back in 1980, IBM was the evil monopolist.Oct 22 02:59
fewawhere the senator argued that it wasn't the government's business meddling in government contractsOct 22 02:59
schestowitzJust them "supporting the troops"Oct 22 02:59
fewaLOLOLOct 22 03:00
schestowitzyuhong: yes, ESR wrote about itOct 22 03:00
JPerlowback in 1980 I was playing 4-bit video games on my atari 2600.Oct 22 03:00
schestowitz 22 03:00
schestowitzHow many cores? :-DOct 22 03:01
schestowitzHow to even address memory....?Oct 22 03:01
JPerlowand Cylons were cylons and not attractive blondes.Oct 22 03:01
yuhongAnd the fact that MS ended up having to buy SCP 86-DOS and license that to IBM was how MS got it's monopoly in the first place.Oct 22 03:02
yuhongWhich is why to this day I still wonder what would happen if IBM was able to license CP/M-86 from Digital Research back in 1980.Oct 22 03:02
JPerlowI liked CP/M, I ran it on my Apple ][.Oct 22 03:03
yuhongI know, remember the MS Softcard?Oct 22 03:03
JPerlowyep, had one.Oct 22 03:03
JPerlowand 80 column cardOct 22 03:03
JPerlowso I could run wordstar and visicalc.Oct 22 03:04
yuhongFunny how IBM inadvently caused another monopolist to emerge.Oct 22 03:04
JPerlowyuhong, are you based out of NYC?Oct 22 03:05
yuhongNo, I am far from it.Oct 22 03:05
yuhongSee my previous IRC logs.Oct 22 03:05
JPerlowI saw your ident, I figured NY metro area.Oct 22 03:06
schestowitz News Corp Lawyer: Aggregators Steal From Us! News Corp: Hey Check Out Our Aggregator!Oct 22 03:06
schestowitzJPerlow: more near MS HQOct 22 03:07
yuhongYep.Oct 22 03:07
JPerlowI didnt know verizon had pops out in seattleOct 22 03:07
yuhongBut I have never visited it so far.Oct 22 03:07
JPerlowIts a cool campus.Oct 22 03:07
JPerlowfree Starbucks.Oct 22 03:08
schestowitzOld-School Beetle Runs on Batteries and Biodiesel 22 03:08
yuhongAnd on TechFlash, they were the ones who broke out the news about Steve Ballmer smashing an iPhone.Oct 22 03:08
schestowitzThreatening toOct 22 03:08
yuhongYep.Oct 22 03:08
schestowitz 22 03:09
schestowitzfewa: Fox News isn't even pretending anymore < >Oct 22 03:09
fewabut they are against the administrationOct 22 03:10
fewathat is much harder to do than just parrot the administration like they did the last 8 yearsOct 22 03:10
fewashows that there is alot of money and interests in keeping the practices of the past administration and holding back the current oneOct 22 03:10
yuhongShoreline, Washington to be more precise.Oct 22 03:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Another impossibly skinny Ralph Lauren model #starvation #RalphLauren #dietOct 22 03:11
fewaand also shows the difference between the state and corporate/media sectorsOct 22 03:12
schestowitz 22 03:13
fewaperhapsOct 22 03:13
JPerlowthe pacific northwest is nice. I like going out there when I get the chance.Oct 22 03:14
schestowitzGarth Brooks Complains That The Gov't Ignores Musicians 22 03:14
DaemonFCschestowitz: Why would Garth Brooks care? He's not a musician.Oct 22 03:15
DaemonFC:)Oct 22 03:15
schestowitz"The phrase is believed[citation needed] to have originated from an event that was said to have taken place in AD 867: Viking pirates from Sjaelland and Uppsala landed in Scotland and raided the monastery of Coldingham. When news of the raid reached Aebbe the Younger (the Mother Superior), she gathered her nuns together and urged them to disfigure themselves, so that they might be unappealing to the Vikings"Oct 22 03:18
schestowitz 22 03:18
schestowitzDaemonFC: he's OKOct 22 03:19
schestowitzGood voiceOct 22 03:19
schestowitzI actually found this good voice in the SXSW collectionOct 22 03:19
DaemonFChe's apparently more of an idiot/asshole than I had him figured forOct 22 03:19
schestowitz 22 03:19
schestowitz 22 03:19
yuhong 22 03:20
schestowitzOops. Here's a video of his leading song: 22 03:20
schestowitzIt's one of those who are still marketing themselves in MySpaceOct 22 03:20
yuhongStill my favorite explaination of why MS ended up being so evil.Oct 22 03:20
yuhongLook at the "ENTER THE DUNGEON" section in particular.Oct 22 03:22
schestowitz 22 03:22
schestowitzSymbian has just lost a key personOct 22 03:22
schestowitzSwissdisk suffers spectacular cloud snafu 22 03:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] SFC: "U.S. citizens wrongly detained, deported by ICE" 22 03:24
schestowitz"America’s infrastructure is crumbling. The Highway Trust Fund, which finances the maintenance of our congested highways, flirts with insolvency. Innovative transit plans languish. And what is the government doing about it?" 22 03:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bold words: "Fox News isn't just bad. It's un-American. " 22 03:26
JPerlowI find fox news entertaining.Oct 22 03:27
JPerlowmuch as I view this channelOct 22 03:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Fun gallery: Gallery: 10 Cars Way Too Far Ahead of Their Time < >Oct 22 03:28
schestowitzThe 7 deadly sins of Windows 7 22 03:28
JPerlowwow, randall definitely isnt getting any christmas cards from microsoft this yearOct 22 03:30
*yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.0.14/2009090216]")Oct 22 03:30
JPerlow 22 03:30
JPerlowbest thing i read all week.Oct 22 03:31
schestowitzrandall got kicked outOct 22 03:31
schestowitz"I receive an e-mail from Julie McCormick at Waggener Edstrom in which she extends a "special save-the-date" invitation to attend a "unique, invitation-only" event being hosted by the Windows Client team. She labels the subject matter as "confidential"..."Oct 22 03:31
schestowitz 22 03:31
DaemonFCyeah, I still want XP backOct 22 03:32
DaemonFCI don't really like Vista, never haveOct 22 03:32
JPerlowThe Windows Client team hates my gutsOct 22 03:32
DaemonFCmy system is more than enough for it, but it just feels wrongOct 22 03:33
JPerlowbut the server team loves me. bipolar company.Oct 22 03:33
schestowitzThat zombie thing is for the "I want to believe" vrowsOct 22 03:33
schestowitz*crowdOct 22 03:33
JPerlowoh cmon, brilliant stuff.Oct 22 03:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Dell has just called Windows Vista "a bust", in publicOct 22 03:35
schestowitz 22 03:37
JPerlowthey also called the Itanium "an albatross"Oct 22 03:38
JPerlowlolOct 22 03:38
JPerlowthat was my personal faveOct 22 03:38
schestowitz 22 03:41
JPerlowhe should spell Julie's name properlyOct 22 03:42
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schestowitzThe press totally 'forgets' to cover outlook of Microsoft results tomorrowOct 22 03:46
schestowitzI've tried many searches in Google News, but nothing comes upOct 22 03:47
schestowitzThey extinguished the bad news using a decoyOct 22 03:47
schestowitzAh!Oct 22 03:47
schestowitzFound one, finallyOct 22 03:47
schestowitz1 hour ago: 22 03:47
JPerlowroy I seriously doubt the press will forget anything if the next 3 months turn out to be a bust in terms of sale of durable goods.Oct 22 03:48
JPerlowand we probably won't know the full extent of WIn 7 retail sales for at least 3 monthsOct 22 03:50
JPerlowif not moreOct 22 03:50
JPerlowsince all the windows 7 adoption planned at large enterprises is likely to occur in Q2 2010Oct 22 03:51
JPerlowor laterOct 22 03:51
oiaohmJPerlow: lot of enterprises are looking at going sideways.Oct 22 03:52
oiaohmVirtualize what they have and migrate.Oct 22 03:52
JPerlowdepends on the maturity level.Oct 22 03:53
oiaohmIBM and Orcale looking at providing solutions to make it simple JPerlowOct 22 03:54
JPerlowreally? I had no idea IBM did that.Oct 22 03:54
JPerlowlolOct 22 03:54
oiaohmThere is a key stone missing for major effect.  Samba with ADS.Oct 22 03:55
JPerlownot really.Oct 22 03:55
JPerlowCentrify and Likewise are decent and mature products.Oct 22 03:55
oiaohmLikewise depends on the existance of a ADS server JPerlowOct 22 03:56
JPerlowSAMBA4 really isnt high performance enough to be used as a identity managment solution.Oct 22 03:56
oiaohmADS is not only in SAMBA4 JPerlowOct 22 03:56
JPerlowyes, but both those products are much faster than Winbind/Samba4.Oct 22 03:56
oiaohmSamba 3.5 will contain it as well.Oct 22 03:56
JPerlowstill slower.Oct 22 03:56
JPerlowmuch slower.Oct 22 03:57
JPerlownot when you are dealing with domains of users greater than 5000.Oct 22 03:57
oiaohmBoth still depend on the existance of a ADS server.Oct 22 03:57
JPerlowyeah, so what's your point?Oct 22 03:57
oiaohmlikewise linking can be used with a samba ads server.Oct 22 03:58
JPerlowWhich is slow.Oct 22 03:58
oiaohmSame with CentrifyOct 22 03:58
oiaohmany ideas why it slow JPerlowOct 22 03:58
oiaohmYou don't have to look too far JPerlowOct 22 03:59
JPerlowa number of architectual reasons, but you'd have to ask Jeremy.Oct 22 03:59
oiaohmMajor one is complierOct 22 03:59
JPerlowI suspect that at some point, with all the interoperability stuff that is published, Samba4's AD controller will be at parity with MicrosoftOct 22 03:59
JPerlowprobably within 2 or 3 years.Oct 22 04:00
oiaohmNothing to do with the samba code base JPerlowOct 22 04:00
oiaohmSame reason a lot of other large complex programs are slow.Oct 22 04:00
JPerlowum, yeah it does.Oct 22 04:00
JPerlowthey have to fully implement everything in the published specs.Oct 22 04:00
JPerlowthey havent, yet.Oct 22 04:00
oiaohmIf you have build sambe with link time optimisations you would know its not as slow as you think.Oct 22 04:01
JPerlowI would rather not waste my time and go with a commercial product with excellent tech support and high performanceOct 22 04:02
JPerlowif AD integration was a concernOct 22 04:02
JPerlowotherwise, there are other ID management solutions out there that do not depend on AD.Oct 22 04:03
oiaohmclustering works with samba 3.5 with ADS.Oct 22 04:03
JPerlowoaiohm are you a reactos developer?Oct 22 04:04
*Balrog_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Oct 22 04:04
oiaohmnever submited code there JPerlowOct 22 04:04
oiaohmI do know its code base JPerlowOct 22 04:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] October 23rd Brings Bad News for #Microsoft #decline #stealthunderOct 22 04:04
JPerlowwell, I see you are on the channel, so I was curious.Oct 22 04:04
JPerlowI havent spoken to those guys in a while.Oct 22 04:05
oiaohmI have voice there due to a dispute between me and alex ion over secuirty design of windows.   There are a few things different inside the reactos kernel for secuirty reasons.Oct 22 04:05
schestowitz "I’ve been playing with the Windows 7 Build 7000 (Beta 1) for several days now, and I’ve come to the conclusion that like Vista, it’s not a major improvement over what most users are currently experiencing with Windows XP, and is at best only a slight improvement over Vista SP1. In a number of cases, I think they’ve gone even further down the user rejection hole."Oct 22 04:06
schestowitzBut suddenly he sounds excitedOct 22 04:06
schestowitzA little self-contradictory, IMHOOct 22 04:06
JPerlowno, not really.Oct 22 04:06
schestowitzgnOct 22 04:06
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oiaohmJPerlow: also samba 3.5 ads binds onto a standard LDAP server.  So allowing other access solutions to be used for Linux and Mac machines without issue. Oct 22 04:07
JPerlowI think that Windows 7 is at best the Vista that end-users were promised 2 years ago.Oct 22 04:07
JPerlowand anyone who purchased Vista should get 7 for free.Oct 22 04:07
JPerlowor minimal media plus shipping costs, something analagous to what apple did with snow leopard.Oct 22 04:07
JPerlowwhich will be the focus of my coverage next week after everyone else has had their say.Oct 22 04:08
oiaohmJPerlow: MS is not in a place to give a OS away for nothing.Oct 22 04:08
JPerlowI'm sure they could engender a tremendous amount of good will by providing Windows 7 at least at similar costs to Snow Leopard to existing vista usersOct 22 04:09
ThistleWebit is interesting how many "news" people claim Windows is the "best selling", when they never "sell" Windows, they sell licences to use Windows under certain restrictionsOct 22 04:09
JPerlowno, they sell windows.Oct 22 04:09
JPerlowthey most certainly do, especially to large enterprises.Oct 22 04:10
ThistleWebin the eula, they cleraly state it's not a sale, it's a licenceOct 22 04:10
JPerlowit's an entitlement, yesOct 22 04:10
ThistleWebthey got caught out in tax evasion accusations in India until part of their eula was read out in courtOct 22 04:10
ThistleWebthey claimed it was a sale to get a lower tax rateOct 22 04:11
ThistleWebwhere the eula said the exact oppositeOct 22 04:11
ThistleWebthey also like to count pre-installed PCs as a "sale" or someone "choosing Windows" when they have no choiceOct 22 04:12
JPerlowThistle, do you honestly beleive that the average end user would "choose" an OS if given the opportunity?Oct 22 04:13
ThistleWebjust as they counted all PCs installed with Vista, then downgraded because peeps hated Vista, as Vista sales, even though they left the store as XPOct 22 04:13
ThistleWebthey choose a PC, so they have some idea of their needs and can compare side by side instoreOct 22 04:14
ThistleWebif that choice also includes OS's then yesOct 22 04:14
JPerlowso in your ideal world, you'd give them either Linux or Windows as a choice then, when buying a PC.Oct 22 04:14
ThistleWebspecially if MS are forced to display the added cost of Windows as part of the PCOct 22 04:14
ThistleWebyesOct 22 04:15
JPerlowyou're not addressing the cost to the manufacturer to support tht OS.Oct 22 04:15
JPerlowif we gave users a choice of Windows or Linux, then which Linux?Oct 22 04:15
fewa 22 04:15
ThistleWebubuntu has the mommentum, so use thatOct 22 04:15
ThistleWebwindows is ONE option as an OSOct 22 04:16
JPerlowand what about all the plugins and things users expect for certain functionality with certain perpipherals, etc? If they don't work?Oct 22 04:16
fewaUbuntuOct 22 04:16
ThistleWebit's also a chargable extra onto the PC priceOct 22 04:16
fewaeither GNOME or KDE doesn't matterOct 22 04:16
fewaworks right ou tof the boxOct 22 04:17
fewafar better than WindowsOct 22 04:17
JPerlowhow much money do you think it costs Dell to integrate Ubuntu into preloads?Oct 22 04:17
fewaand new software is less than 2 minutes away, and totally secureOct 22 04:17
JPerlowdo you really think Canonical is giving Dell subsidies to do that?Oct 22 04:18
JPerlowin substantial amounts?Oct 22 04:18
ThistleWebdepends how many hardware vendors have been duped into making their stuff too reliant on windowsOct 22 04:18
JPerlowat best Dell can support Ubuntu on a few modelsOct 22 04:18
ThistleWebif they make or use crippled hardware it's their own faultOct 22 04:18
JPerlowif we were talking about giving Ubuntu preloads across the board, we'd be talking about a huge amount of labor and QA involved.Oct 22 04:19
ThistleWebwhich means jobsOct 22 04:19
ThistleWebin a time of increasing unemployment, this would be a good thing no?Oct 22 04:19
JPerloweven if suddenly all OSes were to be virtualized on chip, you'd still have to provide a lot of integration supportOct 22 04:19
JPerlowthe demand would have to exist for Dell to justify that.Oct 22 04:20
ThistleWebor the laws to force themOct 22 04:20
ThistleWebwhy just Dell?Oct 22 04:20
JPerlowI'm putting one manufacturer as an example.Oct 22 04:20
ThistleWebpeople can choose the hardware options they want to suit their needsOct 22 04:20
JPerlowassume all of the Tier 1s and Tier 2s would have to do that.Oct 22 04:21
ThistleWebbut not the OSOct 22 04:21
ThistleWebyet it's only one optionOct 22 04:21
ThistleWebeven those who know about that and want another option are told they have to buy something they never intend to use, which adds to the priceOct 22 04:22
ThistleWebthe people are not told it's a paid part of the packageOct 22 04:22
JPerlowthe entire ecosystem has to change and more people need to be exposed to linux to make that practical.Oct 22 04:22
ThistleWebthat their PC can be cheaper without itOct 22 04:23
ThistleWebnot to mention more secure and more stableOct 22 04:23
JPerlowthere are still entire groups of people where Linux would not be an ideal environment for themOct 22 04:23
ThistleWebwhat I'd like to see, is OEM Windows installs be a 30 day trial version. Where the customer buys as key for whatever edition they want as an extra, either at the time of sale, or within that 30 daysOct 22 04:24
ThistleWebso they can have a multiple choice of eiditons to try for the 30 daysOct 22 04:24
ThistleWebtry ultimate, see if their hardware is fine with it, if they need the extra featuresOct 22 04:25
ThistleWebif they want to buy one, they enter their bought key and it unlocksOct 22 04:25
JPerlowit's a nice idea from the perspective of a  FOSS advocate but it doesnt make sense to 90 percent of the people out there buying PCs.Oct 22 04:25
ThistleWeb30 day trial ends....all the options grey out, other than enter the key partOct 22 04:25
ThistleWebwhy not, they're used to trial ware crap, their PC comes infested with itOct 22 04:26
ThistleWebnortonOct 22 04:26
ThistleWebmacafeOct 22 04:26
ThistleWebworksOct 22 04:26
JPerlowummOct 22 04:26
ThistleWebthey've been well trained that software has a trial dateOct 22 04:26
ThistleWeband they have to pay to keep using itOct 22 04:26
JPerlowyou completely underestimate the level of ignorance in your typical end user.Oct 22 04:26
JPerlowI know a lot of users that let their virus software that comes with their PC time bomb out, and then have no protectionOct 22 04:27
ThistleWebin that case, why do companys pay to have that stuff put on? If it's not successful?Oct 22 04:27
JPerlowbecause they dont understand what the time out messages mean.Oct 22 04:27
oiaohmJPerlow: percentages.Oct 22 04:27
JPerlowwhat makes you think they wouldnt ignore the messages from windows?Oct 22 04:27
ThistleWebin some cases, like service that can be trueOct 22 04:27
oiaohmEven the percent that let it fail still a lot of profit.Oct 22 04:27
ThistleWebin apps like photoshop they can't NOT noticeOct 22 04:28
JPerlowand then suddenly their OS stops working correctly and they get angry.Oct 22 04:28
ThistleWebwhen the trial runs out, it wont run beyond that screen telling themOct 22 04:28
JPerlowwould never fly with the manufacturers.Oct 22 04:28
ThistleWebthats where the sale people will have to tell them, the OS is extraOct 22 04:28
ThistleWebthat you have to buy a nice neato sticker with a number on itOct 22 04:28
mutxthey dont tell them the CPU is extra or the RAM, Oct 22 04:29
mutxthey dont give you a one month trial of AMD or INTEL for you to choose.Oct 22 04:29
JPerlowlolOct 22 04:29
ThistleWebno, it's listed in the bundle, but they can choose which cpu and ram to getOct 22 04:29
ThistleWebif you want intel, you look for a bundle with intelOct 22 04:29
ThistleWebif you think intel are scumbags and want to use amd you canOct 22 04:29
JPerlowthistle you have no idea how what average end user who buys retail computers expects when they open the box and fire it upOct 22 04:30
JPerlowthey expect to be spoon fed and they expect it all to work.Oct 22 04:30
ThistleWebyes, something which works well, and is going to continue to work well for a whileOct 22 04:30
JPerlowand the average end user has no idea what the difference between AMD and Intel is.Oct 22 04:30
ThistleWebinstead they get something that's gonna get infected the first chance it getsOct 22 04:30
mutxor xp and vista for that matterOct 22 04:31
JPerlowat best, they see "2.4Ghz dual core, 4GB ram 500GB HD, 15 inch LCD"Oct 22 04:31
ThistleWebsomething which has to be rebooted at every turnOct 22 04:31
JPerlowand they run their hands over it and decide if they like the looks of itOct 22 04:31
JPerlowthats how most people buy computersOct 22 04:31
ThistleWebthen let OS's be part of that visual decision making processOct 22 04:31
JPerlowretarded.Oct 22 04:32
ThistleWeblinux with compiz will draw many more eyeballs than aeroOct 22 04:32
oiaohmMore and more machines are appearing hybred.Oct 22 04:32
oiaohmPart Linux Part Windows.Oct 22 04:32
JPerlowif they've ben using windows for any period of time they want what they know.Oct 22 04:32
ThistleWebthen let them CHOOSE windowsOct 22 04:32
ThistleWebwhile knowing its not free (cost)Oct 22 04:33
ThistleWeblet them vote with their walletsOct 22 04:33
mutxthey doOct 22 04:33
ThistleWebthey buy a PCOct 22 04:33
JPerlow 22 04:33
ThistleWebthey dont buy windowsOct 22 04:33
ThistleWebwindows just comes with itOct 22 04:33
JPerlowfor any of these "groups" I point out to have any effect at the initial time of purchase the vendor itself has to be willing to invest resources to support LinuxOct 22 04:34
ThistleWebif MS are so convinced that people are desperate for their stuff, they should have no fear of the customer being offered alternate optionsOct 22 04:34
JPerlowresources = time and moneyOct 22 04:34
mutxso what is the difference between that an choosing between maxtor and winchester Harddrives.Oct 22 04:34
ThistleWebwhich means jobsOct 22 04:34
JPerlowthistle: THEY DONT WANT TO HIRE MORE PEOPLEOct 22 04:35
mutxyou generally get what your given, and it meets the market expectation.Oct 22 04:35
JPerlowthey want to simplify their operationsOct 22 04:35
JPerlowscale downOct 22 04:35
JPerlowas it is, its a low margin business that has become commoditizedOct 22 04:35
mutxwhat company offerers alternatives to itself ?Oct 22 04:35
ThistleWebthe whole point of the capitalist system is that competition keeps prices in check, that the customer can vote with their walletsOct 22 04:35
JPerlowthey canOct 22 04:36
JPerlowunfortunately, they dont vote with walletsOct 22 04:36
ThistleWebwhen you have an entire indusrty deciding to unify around a few common vendors, it reduces choiceOct 22 04:36
mutxand the system works.Oct 22 04:36
ThistleWebthe customer has more and more limits on how they can choose to spendOct 22 04:36
JPerlowthey vote on price, aesthetics and what they know, and not based on intensive researchOct 22 04:36
mutxreduces but not eliminates.Oct 22 04:36
JPerlowthey walk into retail stores and see the shiny thing they like and buy it.Oct 22 04:37
ThistleWebwhat if they all decided to unify around putting seagate hard drives in new pcsOct 22 04:37
oiaohmWhy is the question either Linux or Windows JPerlowOct 22 04:37
JPerlowthey arent IT people.Oct 22 04:37
oiaohmit does not have to beOct 22 04:37
ThistleWebwhat if you had bad experiences with seagateOct 22 04:37
ThistleWebyou choose to buy non-seagateOct 22 04:37
JPerlowhow the hell would you know if it was a seagate or not?Oct 22 04:37
ThistleWebbut you cant in a new pc, because they all use seagateOct 22 04:37
oiaohmProblem I have I have had issues all drive makers.Oct 22 04:37
oiaohmI buy drives based on support system.Oct 22 04:38
JPerlowactually, my dell came with a WD.Oct 22 04:38
mutxand if I have a bad experience with company x I can choose company apple or company Red Hat, or company Ubuntu and so on.Oct 22 04:38
mutxwhere is my choice limited ?Oct 22 04:38
ThistleWebwhat if seagate deside to cut costs by making their hard drives windows onlyOct 22 04:38
ThistleWeband all new pcs come with themOct 22 04:38
JPerlowyour choice is going to become more and more limitecOct 22 04:38
ThistleWebbecuse unifying is supposedly a good thingOct 22 04:38
oiaohmBeen done ThistleWebOct 22 04:39
mutxwhat if Mac's decided to cut cost and make their OSX only for Macs. Oct 22 04:39
JPerlowbecause more component vendors are failingOct 22 04:39
oiaohmDrives did not sell to well ThistleWebOct 22 04:39
JPerlowand the companies will consolidateOct 22 04:39
ThistleWebthe other vendors only have home builders to sell toOct 22 04:39
JPerlowthis is a retarded conversation.Oct 22 04:39
mutxlike apple ?Oct 22 04:39
DaemonFCMicrosoft is a monopoly in the true spirit of the wordOct 22 04:40
ThistleWebthe point is, when you start to thin down the choices the customer has, you may as well privatise the entire processOct 22 04:40
DaemonFCno credible competition lets them do anything they wantOct 22 04:40
JPerlowthis is like the monty python argument sketchOct 22 04:40
JPerlowexcept it never endsOct 22 04:40
mutxis that MS's fault DeamnoFC ?Oct 22 04:40
oiaohmYes it is mutxOct 22 04:40
DaemonFCany company would do the same thing in the absense of credible competitionOct 22 04:40
DaemonFC*absence Oct 22 04:41
oiaohmMS Dos age if you wanted MS dos on your machines you had to agree only to sell MS DosOct 22 04:41
mutxthat no one is able to compete with MS, even though many other companies were doing OS's way before MS did.Oct 22 04:41
ThistleWebI understand why employees of companies wouldn't want customers to be educated and given a choice, as it screws their tatic of profiting from confusionOct 22 04:41
oiaohmOr pay MS even for machines that did not include MS DOS.Oct 22 04:41
DaemonFCmutx, There's always been a few also-ransOct 22 04:41
DaemonFCmost went out of business, some limp on as a nicheOct 22 04:41
DaemonFCsome thrive as a niche (Apple)Oct 22 04:41
oiaohmMS made the current monopoly they hae no mutxOct 22 04:41
oiaohmNow.Oct 22 04:42
oiaohmIn the process destroying competitionOct 22 04:42
mutxLike comodore pet, TRS-80, and many many others, all before DOS and MS, all gone now.Oct 22 04:42
oiaohmEven the likes of DR Dos and other dos releations got destroyed the were just too expensive.Oct 22 04:42
oiaohmDue to MS actions.Oct 22 04:42
oiaohmFragments of compeition are returning to the market.Oct 22 04:43
oiaohmPeople forget when MS won the battle with other DOS's they over night quaded the price.Oct 22 04:44
ThistleWebI watched the movie Speed Racer yesterday, it it struck me the parallels with Microsoft and Novell, in the two corporate criminal enterprises in the movieOct 22 04:44
ThistleWebrig races, serve bogus IP lawsuits etcOct 22 04:45
ThistleWeball I thought of was MicrosoftOct 22 04:45
ThistleWeb"if you don't sign that contract, your team will be served with IP lawsuits, you will never finish the race etc"Oct 22 04:46
oiaohmWhen you really audit need in a lot of businesses Windows is really not required.Oct 22 04:46
oiaohmOr if it is required it can be picked up by shared virtualisation.Oct 22 04:46
mutxif got my november issue 1980 of "INTERFACE AGE", a computer magazine from the US it's very interesting to see all the computer companies, the OS's they use, and the products (and price) and the fact that Microsoft is not even mentioned at all in it.Oct 22 04:46
mutxoh yes, and all the software for their apps are listed and printed out, therefore being Open source, but with no licence restrictions.Oct 22 04:49
oiaohmClosed source is really a alien thing to the software world came latter and stuck around.Oct 22 04:50
fewaI see my predictions about JPerlow were correctOct 22 04:51
fewa<JPerlow> this is a retarded conversation.Oct 22 04:51
fewayes, and you started it right?Oct 22 04:51
mutxin fact in 1980, in that mags advertiser index, MS is not mentinoed at all.Oct 22 04:52
fewaa not-so-sophisticated pro-MicrosofterOct 22 04:53
JPerlowpro-microsofterOct 22 04:53
JPerlowthats an interesting term to describe meOct 22 04:53
ThistleWebyou did make your aligencies rather obviousOct 22 04:54
fewaa under miner of free and open sourceOct 22 04:54
ThistleWeb"customers should have choice of everything, as long as it comes with a windows install and they get some money from it"Oct 22 04:55
JPerlowreally, how do I make my allegiances to Microsoft obvious? how did you figure it out?Oct 22 04:55
ThistleWebdude, read your training manuals, they're bound to have examples of how others have given themselves awayOct 22 04:57
fewaJPerlow made his opposition to free software clear here 22 04:59
JPerlowI see, so you know everything about my background then.Oct 22 04:59
JPerlowI have a firm disagreement with the fundamentals of the FSF.Oct 22 04:59
JPerlowI am an Open Source proponent.Oct 22 04:59
fewahmm, thats also Microsoft's official positionOct 22 05:00
ThistleWebI disagree with the tones of some of the campaigns the FSF do, but broadly agree with their aimsOct 22 05:00
JPerlowyes, but I have also had the benefit of being on the staff of a Linux print publication for almost 10 years.Oct 22 05:01
ThistleWeball you've done here is try to defend the status quoOct 22 05:01
fewaYes, the post by JPerlow wasn't neccicarily wrong, but it did show who JPerlow doesn't likeOct 22 05:01
JPerlowI do not agree with the FSF. Neither do a LOT of people invovled with the Open Source movement from the perspective of the Open Source definition.Oct 22 05:02
ThistleWebno doubt if vendors unified around linux, you'd be complaining about a lack of diversity]Oct 22 05:02
JPerlowactually, I do not want diversity in Linux.Oct 22 05:02
fewaJPerlow seems to be at war with copyleftOct 22 05:02
fewathe keeping of software freeOct 22 05:02
ThistleWebsome people have a rebooting fetish that linux just does not meetOct 22 05:02
oiaohmNow that is where you have a problem JPerlow diversity is part of the system.Oct 22 05:02
fewaand prevention of making propritary off-shootsOct 22 05:02
ThistleWebsome people like the thrill of having yet another infection to hunt down and removeOct 22 05:03
JPerlowI feel quite strongly we have too many distributions and we also have too many open source licenses.Oct 22 05:03
ThistleWebsome people like paying for that privilidgeOct 22 05:03
fewaJPerlow, the strict open source definition is very goodOct 22 05:03
oiaohmJPerlow: how many real distributions do you think there are.Oct 22 05:03
JPerlowI also feel increasingly that the GPL may be the wrong path for open source developers to take.Oct 22 05:03
fewait is essentially the Debian Free Software GuidelinesOct 22 05:03
oiaohmThere is less than 20 JPerlowOct 22 05:04
JPerlowThat is still too many.Oct 22 05:04
oiaohmMost of the others are no different to windows slipstreaming.Oct 22 05:04
fewaJPerlow, MS-PL, MS-LPL ?Oct 22 05:04
fewainstead of just using MIT or BSDOct 22 05:04
oiaohmYou are aware that Open source threw out history goes threw divide and merge cycles JPerlowOct 22 05:05
fewaI think it depends on the developerOct 22 05:05
JPerlowI have not done enough due diligence to determine what licenses we should pursue. I like Asay's and others suggestions that Apache may be a good alternative.Oct 22 05:05
oiaohmWe are currently in a Merge cycle in a lot of ways.Oct 22 05:05
oiaohmLike debian going duel kernel.  Linux and FreeBSD.Oct 22 05:05
fewaThis is a great essay on why to use the GPL 22 05:05
ThistleWebthe GPL is what protects it from companies like Microsoft and AppleOct 22 05:05
fewaThe GPL is an amazing instrument because it really uses copyright lawOct 22 05:06
JPerlowfewa, if you continue to try to put words into my mouth I'm simply going to mute you.Oct 22 05:06
ThistleWebif corps ran their businesses with a pinch of ethics and fairness, they wouldn't need that protectionOct 22 05:06
fewait is the only licence that actually streches the monopoly rights congress grantsOct 22 05:06
JPerlowI dont have discussions with irrational and uncivil people.Oct 22 05:06
fewaand puts that power firmly in the hands of the author, not the publisher or large corperationOct 22 05:07
ThistleWebuncivil?Oct 22 05:07
fewajust like the creative commons licences do for artistsOct 22 05:07
ThistleWebirrational?Oct 22 05:07
fewathey give artists a real strong bargaining positionOct 22 05:07
oiaohmThe current core distributions are Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora  most of the others don't rebuilds of  them or are a blood releation to 1 of these 3.Oct 22 05:07
ThistleWebahh, I get it, the troll starts the accusations to divertOct 22 05:07
mutxthe GPL put's your copyright in the hands of the FSF.Oct 22 05:07
fewaand Brazil has recommended that their copyright system be based on creative commonsOct 22 05:07
oiaohmI really don't see where three competing is a major problem JPerlowOct 22 05:08
JPerlowI see the only three distributions for end users as Ubuntu and OpenSUSE.Oct 22 05:08
fewaGPL does this: and this: 22 05:08
JPerlowand possibly other ubuntu derivatives.Oct 22 05:09
fewaIt firmly gives the user powerOct 22 05:09
ThistleWebso "too much choice" comes down to "ubuntu and opensuse"Oct 22 05:09
fewaand the authorOct 22 05:09
fewainstead of the distributer, the middle man, the corporationOct 22 05:09
ThistleWebwow, we have a true socialist in our midst. You can't be trusted to choose for yourself, so we're gonna make that choice for your own good. Welcome to WindowsOct 22 05:10
oiaohmYou will see a little more debian.  Mostly due to stablity problems with ubuntu a few netbook distributions are changing accross JPerlowOct 22 05:10
fewaThistleWeb, exactlyOct 22 05:10
JPerlowdebian is primarily an embedded distributionOct 22 05:11
fewaGPL is choiceOct 22 05:11
ThistleWebyou can choose the hardware you want, but we'll decide your OSOct 22 05:11
oiaohmLike how many expermental OS's has MS made JPerlowOct 22 05:11
JPerlowas a code foundry its fine, for end users its impractical.Oct 22 05:11
oiaohmThe list is long.Oct 22 05:11
fewathe freedom of your fist ends at my faceOct 22 05:11
fewathats what the GPL doesOct 22 05:11
oiaohmThe dividing provides a location to try ideas without effecting everyone.Oct 22 05:12
oiaohmNow when the best ideas are found merging normally happens.Oct 22 05:12
JPerlowafter midnight here.Oct 22 05:12
oiaohmThis cycle repeats over and over again in open source.Oct 22 05:12
ThistleWebthat "we'll choose for you, instead of educating you to make your own choices" also reaches into MS's secuirty issues in IE tooOct 22 05:12
JPerlowconference calls early in the am. Talk to you guys later. :)Oct 22 05:12
fewaand by keeping it open source you prevent dark agesOct 22 05:12
ThistleWebstuff enebaled to just run, so the customer is never bothered with a question about do they want it to runOct 22 05:13
oiaohmList of items that have merged in the last 12 months include a common systray.Oct 22 05:13
ThistleWebit just runs because MS told it toOct 22 05:13
oiaohmMS hates Linux because it is used as leavage against them.Oct 22 05:13
fewaMS-LPL: you can only run this on WindowsOct 22 05:14
ThistleWeblet's piss him off by dropping the subject, since that seemed to be his intent....come in, stir us up then leaveOct 22 05:14
fewawell im not that riled upOct 22 05:14
JPerlowum, no its midnight.Oct 22 05:14
JPerlowand I work for a living.Oct 22 05:14
fewayou just have to explain yourselfOct 22 05:14
JPerlowand I require sleep.Oct 22 05:14
ThistleWebyep, say hi to Steve for usOct 22 05:14
JPerlowSteve?Oct 22 05:14
JPerlowno, my boss is named Sam.Oct 22 05:14
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fewawhen you bring up the fact that MS releases sham open source that is only allowed to run on Windows(tm) for exampleOct 22 05:15
oiaohmRead it closer fewaOct 22 05:15
mutxwhat sham open source, can only run on windows ?Oct 22 05:15
oiaohmYou must keep a version that runs on Windows.Oct 22 05:15
oiaohmMS-LPL can have versions for Linux.Oct 22 05:16
fewastill a stiltOct 22 05:16
oiaohmBut still is suxs.Oct 22 05:16
ThistleWebit's codeplex that insists on only running on windowsOct 22 05:16
fewathese are rational goals for the Microsoft corporationOct 22 05:16
oiaohmcodeplex does host some Linux running programs.Oct 22 05:16
ThistleWebI think the ms-lpl can be used on anything, though I doubt any project who wanted any credibility as cross platform would use itOct 22 05:17
oiaohmBut you must have windows version.Oct 22 05:17
fewathey have a rational desire to increase the mindshare of the Win32 API, along the same inititives as laid out in Comes v MicrosoftOct 22 05:17
fewaand planning documents long agoOct 22 05:17
fewaits just not open sourceOct 22 05:17
fewaand these goals conflict with free and open source software's aim to preserve the freedom to innovate on all platformsOct 22 05:18
fewaand in doing do, usually render most layers of the system commoditiesOct 22 05:18
ThistleWeboiaohm  : codeplex does host some Linux running programs. << for some reason my mind jumped to "porting malware to LinuxOct 22 05:18
ThistleWebseems like the kinda thing they'd love to do if they could get away with itOct 22 05:18
fewaMicrosoft's actions are not irrational, but they are destructiveOct 22 05:19
oiaohm  I forget there are a few pure Linux programs on codeplexOct 22 05:19
fewaand damaging to innovationOct 22 05:19
oiaohmMS could not keep them out.Oct 22 05:19
oiaohmAlso gpl.Oct 22 05:19
fewalike the code Microsoft realized it was violating the GPLOct 22 05:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] PHILLIES!!! Good job, now let's repeat it!!!Oct 22 05:19
ThistleWebI reckon MS see their "open source" as windows only, free devs, where they control the projectOct 22 05:20
fewaThistleWeb, exactlyOct 22 05:20
fewaive talked with themOct 22 05:20
fewathey say that Microsoft has embraced open sourceOct 22 05:20
fewaI ask them: for whom?Oct 22 05:20
ThistleWebdesigned to further their platform without paying out for the workOct 22 05:20
fewais Windows open source?Oct 22 05:20
oiaohmGets worse MS though they could dump care of that code on Novell.Oct 22 05:20
fewawill it be before hell freezes over?Oct 22 05:20
oiaohmOne time Novell showed some back bone.Oct 22 05:21
oiaohmand told MS to basically stick it.Oct 22 05:21
fewait seems redundant in usualy MS fashionOct 22 05:21
oiaohmSo now we have 2 MS payed coders working on the Linux kernel.Oct 22 05:21
fewawhy cant they use the KVM virtio drivers?Oct 22 05:21
fewa /interfacesOct 22 05:22
oiaohmThinking MS hypvervisor is a blood releation to Xen that MS double crossed.Oct 22 05:22
oiaohmKVM and XEN are kinda oposed to each other.Oct 22 05:23
oiaohmYou are asking the wrong question fewaOct 22 05:23
oiaohmWhy cannot MS hyperversor and Xen use the same interfaces.Oct 22 05:23
oiaohmIs the question you were looking for.  Answer MS being a ass hole.Oct 22 05:23
fewawell anyways, eitherOct 22 05:23
fewaKVM really is betterOct 22 05:23
fewabecause it only requires only one driverOct 22 05:24
fewafor each piece of hardwareOct 22 05:24
oiaohmSUN also has a hyperversor based of Xen yet its been able to share drivers.Oct 22 05:24
fewaXen just recreates all the problems of BIOS's all over againOct 22 05:25
oiaohmXen has some techical merits over KVM fewaOct 22 05:25
fewajust a messOct 22 05:25
oiaohmand KVM has a few techical merits of Xen.Oct 22 05:25
fewathey should port the Xen user-space tools to the KVM kernel interfaceOct 22 05:25
oiaohmhorses for courses.Oct 22 05:25
fewaand dump XenOct 22 05:25
oiaohmIt is no the Userspace tools fewaOct 22 05:25
oiaohmit the way Xen is constructed.Oct 22 05:26
oiaohmvs the way kvm is constructed.Oct 22 05:26
fewamehOct 22 05:26
fewaI think KVM is better, Oct 22 05:26
oiaohmThere are advantages and disadvantages to both designed.Oct 22 05:26
fewaone device, one driverOct 22 05:26
fewapeople thought a BIOS would be good, a standard API, etcOct 22 05:27
oiaohmXen allows more isolulation.Oct 22 05:27
fewaonly caused problemsOct 22 05:27
oiaohmThan KVMOct 22 05:27
oiaohmBut more isoluation also has its price.Oct 22 05:27
fewaI don't see why a stripped down linux kernel cant do everything a xen microkernel cant doOct 22 05:27
oiaohmbecause a striped down linux kernel is still larger than the xen kernel.Oct 22 05:28
fewaI don't accept the wasted driver modelOct 22 05:28
mutxa striped down monolithic kernel != microkernel.Oct 22 05:28
fewaoiaohm, and a small BIOS is smaller than real stuffOct 22 05:28
oiaohmAnd contains more functionality that what is need in the isoluation core.Oct 22 05:28
fewaThe KVM is just so much more elegentOct 22 05:29
fewabecause of the driver problemsOct 22 05:29
fewa1 device 1 driverOct 22 05:29
oiaohmRemember I said horses for courses.Oct 22 05:29
oiaohmFor things like phones where a secound OS must not be incontact with another OS threw any means Xen style is better.Oct 22 05:29
fewathats why MS wanted to control XenOct 22 05:29
oiaohmFor your general desktop virtualisation KVM is better.Oct 22 05:30
oiaohmServer room it gets interesting to say the least and you have big mothers of fights over if XEN or KVM should be used.Oct 22 05:30
fewaKVM==better :POct 22 05:31
mutxwho uses virtualisation in the server room ?  and what for ?Oct 22 05:32
oiaohmMostly so you can transfer running servers from one machine to another while you do upgrades mutxOct 22 05:32
fewamutx==trollOct 22 05:32
oiaohmMS licencing becomes a little bit of a pain in but there too.Oct 22 05:33
mutxfewa why do you think im a troll?Oct 22 05:33
oiaohmKVM also supports KSM that allows memory to be compressed in 2.6.32 kernel coming out and that might be the killer blow to Xen in the server room.Oct 22 05:34
oiaohmMore virtual servers less ram required.Oct 22 05:34
oiaohmI am also looking forwared to that might make it into 2.6.33 kernel.Oct 22 05:35
fewainterestingOct 22 05:39
fewabut lots of overhead rightOct 22 05:39
fewais it nearly as element as tmpfs?Oct 22 05:39
oiaohmDepends on the workload.Oct 22 05:39
fewa*elegentOct 22 05:39
oiaohmSome work loads the swap access costs more than the compress and decompression.Oct 22 05:39
fewaexactlyOct 22 05:40
oiaohmAlso if you are completely out of ram like the livecdOct 22 05:40
oiaohmits a help.Oct 22 05:40
fewatmpfs is really efficientOct 22 05:40
oiaohmcompcache is also working on using compressed on drive swap.Oct 22 05:40
oiaohmNow that could get really intestesting to say the least.Oct 22 05:41
oiaohmAlso part of compcache operation is finding duplicate pages the same when sending to swap fewaOct 22 05:42
oiaohmSo pages just filled with zeros never end up sent to swap.Oct 22 05:42
fewa;a=blob;f=fs/ramfs/inode.c;h=a6090aa1a7c138e31fd71eb3b99b8f9c3cbc6ab4;hb=d995053d045d777e78ba7eba71a6a0733f3aa726Oct 22 05:43
fewadead simpleOct 22 05:43
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oiaohmThe disk from of compcache might be useful with suspend to disk too fewaOct 22 05:45
fewawhen i last upgraded my kernel suspend to ram workedOct 22 05:48
fewaso i was happy :POct 22 05:48
fewa 22 05:53
tessieroiaohm: I agree. Ability to overcommit memory is killer.Oct 22 06:06
tessieroiaohm: I'm just concerned about the speed of kvm.Oct 22 06:06
tessierkvm fits better with the selinux security model etc also.Oct 22 06:06
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Letter to the European Commission opposing Oracle's acquisition of MySQL 22 06:12
oiaohmtessier: speed tests between kvm and xen don't show much difference.Oct 22 06:22
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tessieroiaohm: How much is not much?Oct 22 06:36
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Microsoft bets on Windows success - How many more paid stories will we see on the BBC? 22 06:49
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "it's not like consumers have a range of operating system choices from Microsoft" - IDG 22 07:02
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oiaohmtessier: I would have to look it up.  Last one I saw some cases kvm won some case xen won ie dead close.Oct 22 07:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Nice reply from Rory Cellan-Jones to my somewhat ranty blog post yesterday. Thanks @ruskin147 22 09:37
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Alan Grayson fulfills his oath of office to protect the #constitution inc ban on bills of attainder 22 09:42
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Windows 7 beats Harry Potter? #windows #microsoft #xp #vista windows 7Oct 22 09:50
schestowitzThe New (New) Mediaconomy 22 09:51
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schestowitzzoobab: spam problem? 22 09:58
schestowitzFOSS supporter passes away. 22 10:00
schestowitzfewa: 22 10:02
fewamaine has some of the best campaign finance laws in the country. Not sure if it applys to federal electionsOct 22 10:03
Diablo-D3yay maineOct 22 10:03
Diablo-D3and no it probably doesntOct 22 10:03
fewawell, the same system as what change-congress +lessig has been behindOct 22 10:05
schestowitzCourt upholds verdict against tobacco firms 22 10:05
schestowitz"Armey's FreedomWorks organization has fired up grass-roots opposition to President Barack Obama's health reform proposals, promoted town hall demonstrations and organized a giant anti-Obama D.C. march and rally in the nation's Capitol. That has put the 69-year-old Armey right where he wants to be: in the middle of the fight for the same conservative principles that have animated him since he was a farmer's son in South Dakota. "Oct 22 10:06
schestowitz 22 10:06
fewaSweden has no campaign finance laws and manages to have a great democracyOct 22 10:07
schestowitz 22 10:08
schestowitzprwatch: "Another Reason to Worry: The Associated Press' New "Standard" for "News" Is Popularity"Oct 22 10:08
schestowitzAstroTurf for dam: Another Reason to Worry: The Associated Press' New "Standard" for "News" Is PopularityOct 22 10:09
schestowitzOops. 22 10:09
schestowitz 22 10:10
schestowitzPro-Stronger Copyright Propaganda Shows Up In Canadian Press 22 10:12
schestowitz "RT @jamie_love I have asked Barnes and Noble if the Nook supports text to speech. >>excellent question #nook"Oct 22 10:16
fewaIn other countries they at least treat the reader as smartedOct 22 10:21
fewain the US there is all this "theft" bullshitOct 22 10:21
fewaeven when the SCOTUS declared otherwiseOct 22 10:21
schestowitz We will be billions of dollars poorer when coral dies 22 10:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @glynmoody New research on aquaculture industry reveals murky waters surrounding fish-feed issue - 22 10:36
schestowitz 22 10:37
schestowitzfewa: Counting the hidden ($120 billion) cost of US energy economy 22 10:37
fewaof courseOct 22 10:38
schestowitzfewa: externalities Oct 22 10:40
schestowitz Make a Local Backup Of Your Gmail Account 22 10:40
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fewaexternalities are everywhereOct 22 10:40
schestowitzI had a colleague who had her gmail emptied one dayOct 22 10:40
fewaexternalities are probably larger than pricipalsOct 22 10:40
schestowitzWork E_mail tooOct 22 10:40
schestowitzfewa: usually sent offshore thoughOct 22 10:41
fewaon averageOct 22 10:41
schestowitzAs in Nike at allOct 22 10:41
schestowitz*andOct 22 10:41
fewaim only talking economicsOct 22 10:41
schestowitzYes, thatOct 22 10:41
schestowitzA lot of the time cost is deferredOct 22 10:41
schestowitzLike pollution or loansOct 22 10:42
schestowitzThe US is said to be in a debt of up to $55 trOct 22 10:42
fewathe external revenue effect of actions is probably, on average, larger than the nominal revenue of the transactionOct 22 10:42
schestowitzWhile bankers receive massive bonuses for taking these loans and making money from thin airOct 22 10:42
fewaask some economist you knwothatOct 22 10:42
fewaits an interesting questionOct 22 10:42
fewaschestowitz, those are not externalitiesOct 22 10:42
schestowitzSix Years of Patch Tuesdays 22 10:42
schestowitzfewa: I know, it's differentOct 22 10:43
schestowitzBut it's like living on drugsOct 22 10:43
fewayes it isOct 22 10:43
schestowitzMuch worse when the sobering up comesOct 22 10:43
schestowitzAnd they keep taking more pills, e.g. bailoutOct 22 10:43
fewaand if externalities dwarf principals, which they probably do, it would point to a destablizing and break market ideasOct 22 10:43
fewacould be a real interesting studyOct 22 10:44
schestowitzCMS news project: (Help Us Bust the Banksters; Join Our New Campaign)Oct 22 10:44
fewasure you could write a fascinating paper on itOct 22 10:44
schestowitz"The Banksters have pulled off the biggest heist of all time. They have crashed the global economy, throwing 7.5 million Americans out of work, emptying retirement and college funds and forcing many into hardship and homelessness. Yet they continue to be rewarded with trillions of taxpayer dollars that underwrite their Bankster bonuses, they prey upon the vulnerable with ballooning bank fees and macabre investment schemes such as "Oct 22 10:44
schestowitzdeath bonds" and their taxpayer-subsidized lobbyists swarm Capitol Hill to prevent the passage of any meaningful reform of the financial system."Oct 22 10:44
*jono has quit ("Ex-Chat")Oct 22 10:44
schestowitz /s/CMS/CMD/Oct 22 10:44
fewaand this is only 1st generation externalitiesOct 22 10:44
fewathis is why libertarianism doesn't workOct 22 10:45
fewaeven on strict economic senseOct 22 10:45
fewathere must be regulation to control externalitiesOct 22 10:45
fewaeverything i read focusses on the externalities effect in a rational marketOct 22 10:46
fewaand only on the viability of the transactionOct 22 10:46
fewaits the wrong questionOct 22 10:46
Diablo-D3the problem with libertarianism is they think the market is rationalOct 22 10:46
Diablo-D3its notOct 22 10:46
fewaexactlyOct 22 10:46
Diablo-D3but the irrationality must be protectedOct 22 10:47
Diablo-D3so their outcome is the sameOct 22 10:47
fewaStiglitz won his nobel prize for thatOct 22 10:47
fewainformation assymtryOct 22 10:47
Diablo-D3fewa: wellOct 22 10:47
Diablo-D3the problem isOct 22 10:47
fewaeven _if_ every market action is rational, the market does not workOct 22 10:47
Diablo-D3we only need laws to stop people who think outside of the boxOct 22 10:47
fewa*every market actorOct 22 10:47
Diablo-D3I know a lot of libertarians would yell at me for saying this, but I'm rightOct 22 10:48
fewabecause one side, the incumbant, has more knowledge than the other sideOct 22 10:48
fewait is rational not to read a 100-page morgage documentOct 22 10:48
Diablo-D3for example, any bank who received a bailout played outside of the nominal rules set forth by societyOct 22 10:48
fewalong legal documents are a waste of timeOct 22 10:48
*zer0c00l is now known as zer0c00l|AwayOct 22 10:48
fewaadd extrenous transaction costsOct 22 10:48
fewaDiablo-D3, yesOct 22 10:48
Diablo-D3the US government really should seize bank assets and sell auction them off to force them to repay the entire amount immediatelyOct 22 10:48
fewathats called bill of attainderOct 22 10:48
Diablo-D3and then start arresting anyone who played ball with the FedOct 22 10:49
Diablo-D3I actually agree with Ron Paul on killing the FedOct 22 10:49
Diablo-D3the Fed does not play within the same rules everyone else doesOct 22 10:49
Diablo-D3ergo, its dangerousOct 22 10:49
fewaif the fed is run correctly it could work, but it is corruptOct 22 10:49
Diablo-D3the fed isn't corrupt in that senseOct 22 10:50
Diablo-D3the fed was designed to work exactly as it is nowOct 22 10:50
fewaAnd I dont see it getting fixedOct 22 10:50
fewathe problem is leverageOct 22 10:50
Diablo-D3"it isn't broken"Oct 22 10:50
fewaand bust and boomOct 22 10:50
Diablo-D3the problem is, banks should quit doing business with the fedOct 22 10:50
Diablo-D3if I started a bank, I wouldn't.Oct 22 10:51
Diablo-D3its not profitableOct 22 10:51
fewathe fed should not extend credit to foreignersOct 22 10:51
Diablo-D3fewa: yes and noOct 22 10:51
Diablo-D3the government should, the fed itself shouldn't on it's ownOct 22 10:51
fewa3,000 for each person in New ZealandOct 22 10:51
Diablo-D3I have no problem with congress itself loaning actual real money to foreign nationsOct 22 10:51
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fewayes, it has to be by congressOct 22 10:51
fewathat is in the constitutionOct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3I have a problem with them loading fake money, or the fed doing it on it's own Oct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3the real problem here is the fed can create moneyOct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3I mean _actually_ create moneyOct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3as opposed to just grease the gears of the economyOct 22 10:52
fewaso can the banksOct 22 10:52
fewathe reserve requirements are very lowOct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3the banks "can't"Oct 22 10:52
fewafractional reserve bankingOct 22 10:52
Diablo-D3the problem is the banks shouldn't even allowed to foreclose on peopleOct 22 10:52
fewaand derivitives to increase leverageOct 22 10:53
Diablo-D3they banks can't prove the money they loaned was actually realOct 22 10:53
fewa"credit default swaps"Oct 22 10:53
Diablo-D3fewa: bingoOct 22 10:53
fewaand the repeal of Sarbanes-OxleyOct 22 10:53
fewawhich seperated investment firms from banksOct 22 10:53
Diablo-D3the property they have mortgages on should be seized from the banks and given back to the ownersOct 22 10:53
fewaset up a firewallOct 22 10:53
fewacongress should have given $700 billion to the citizensOct 22 10:54
Diablo-D3they can't prove they actually have a right to the property since they can't prove any real money was loaned outOct 22 10:54
Diablo-D3fewa: I agreeOct 22 10:54
Diablo-D3if congress wanted the problem to be fixed, they should have handed every american about $20kOct 22 10:54
fewathats $2,000 per personOct 22 10:54
fewathat is alot of moneyOct 22 10:54
fewawhich the banks pocketedOct 22 10:54
fewaits soooo fucking corruptOct 22 10:54
Diablo-D3every company that would have benefited from being "bailed out" would have been "bailed out"Oct 22 10:55
Diablo-D3we personally would have done itOct 22 10:55
schestowitz[10:54] <fewa> thats $2,000 per personOct 22 10:55
schestowitzThink about average ameicanOct 22 10:55
schestowitzIncluding kidsOct 22 10:55
schestowitzFamily of 5: 10kOct 22 10:55
fewaits a loan of support to the capitalism systemOct 22 10:55
fewa*capitalistOct 22 10:55
Diablo-D3schestowitz: yupOct 22 10:55
schestowitzEnough of sustainability for longer than stupid bankers before they next 'bubble'Oct 22 10:55
Diablo-D3but we really should shut down the fedOct 22 10:55
fewaschestowitz, its france's double december paycheckOct 22 10:55
Diablo-D3i dont mind capitalismOct 22 10:56
Diablo-D3but it falls apart when you let people play outside of the rulesOct 22 10:56
fewa*the state-capitalist systemOct 22 10:56
schestowitz"Free market" capitalismOct 22 10:56
fewathis is it in its naked formOct 22 10:56
schestowitzNot the capital issueOct 22 10:56
schestowitzThe whole School of Chicago nonsenseOct 22 10:56
Diablo-D3like, goldman sachs is problematicOct 22 10:56
Diablo-D3so is jp morganOct 22 10:57
schestowitzThey should be left to write their tripe is a distant islandOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3citi mildly is, but not to that extentOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3and boa is staffed by fucking moronsOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3how the fuck did they not profit this quarterOct 22 10:57
schestowitzThe problem is that they 'infected' other countries with similar principlesOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3what the hell were they doingOct 22 10:57
schestowitzThe whole assimilation thingOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3they were handed a perfect quarterOct 22 10:57
schestowitzCOuntries in Europe were better at resistance this spendings economyOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3with free moneyOct 22 10:57
fewafor $700 billion they could have abolished the payroll taxes on ~25% of the population for 1 yearOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3and a get out of jail free cardOct 22 10:57
Diablo-D3boa should be shut down by forceOct 22 10:58
Diablo-D3fewa: exactlyOct 22 10:58
Diablo-D3we could have also abolished the american health care systemOct 22 10:58
Diablo-D3and borrowed the dutch systemOct 22 10:59
Diablo-D3and if theres an actual real overhead, that would have been covered for a good portion of our livesOct 22 11:00
Diablo-D3with $700 billionOct 22 11:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @glynmoody United States Under Pressure to Protect Tropical Forests - conserving tropical forests is a win-win-winOct 22 11:04
*zer0c00l|Away is now known as zer0c00lOct 22 11:05
Diablo-D3fewa: you know what I find amazing?Oct 22 11:05
Diablo-D3we're watching companies drownOct 22 11:05
Diablo-D3if obamacare, as obama put it forth, passes....Oct 22 11:05
Diablo-D3the largest health insurance companies will die.Oct 22 11:05
fewaI thought "obamacare" was a derogatory wordOct 22 11:06
Diablo-D3noOct 22 11:06
fewaalso, I have read views that are entirely the oppositeOct 22 11:06
Diablo-D3if the republicans would want to be derogatory, they'd call it negrocareOct 22 11:06
fewathat HR 3200 will give live support to the health insurersOct 22 11:07
Diablo-D3fewa: I said as obama originally wrote itOct 22 11:07
Diablo-D3congress has ruined it, basicallyOct 22 11:07
*zer0c00l has quit ("brb")Oct 22 11:07
Diablo-D3obama riffed off the dutch systemOct 22 11:07
fewait will dump the sick onto the public option, making private insurance more profitable, and making the public option look badOct 22 11:07
fewaseting up a way to prevent single payerOct 22 11:07
Diablo-D3fewa: ever see the dutch system?Oct 22 11:07
Diablo-D3they have private health insurance companiesOct 22 11:08
Diablo-D3but they are _required_ to have so many sick people of every possible sicknessOct 22 11:08
Diablo-D3if they dont have enough sick people, they're no longer allowed to insure peopleOct 22 11:08
fewa 22 11:08
fewa 22 11:09
fewa"Asked if the administration’s program will be drafted specifically to prevent it from evolving into a single-payer plan, Sebelius says: “I think that’s very much the case”"Oct 22 11:09
schestowitzGoldman Sachs’s Griffiths Says Inequality Helps All 22 11:09
Diablo-D3fewa: like I said, congress ruined itOct 22 11:09
fewathat was SebeliusOct 22 11:09
fewaobama's health and human services appointeeOct 22 11:09
Diablo-D3yupOct 22 11:09
Diablo-D3obama has changed his stance on a few things to help this through congressOct 22 11:10
fewayou mean he gave up on everything?Oct 22 11:10
Diablo-D3but if congress wasn't a bunch of dumbasses, they would have realized that SICK PEOPLE COST MONEYOct 22 11:10
Diablo-D3basically.Oct 22 11:10
fewa<Diablo-D3> but if congress wasn't a bunch of dumbasses, they would have realized that SICK PEOPLE COST MONEYOct 22 11:10
Diablo-D3he should just have congress arrested for being terroristsOct 22 11:10
fewaits not their moneyOct 22 11:10
Diablo-D3fewa: its everybody's moneyOct 22 11:10
fewaand Obama refused to makethat pointOct 22 11:10
fewaeven though its so blatently obviousOct 22 11:11
fewaWeiner had to make it for himOct 22 11:11
Diablo-D3every day someone doesnt go to work, it costs the entire economy about a million dollarsOct 22 11:11
Diablo-D3thats real dollarsOct 22 11:11
Diablo-D3and most of it comes out of the pockets of rich peopleOct 22 11:11
fewanot reallyOct 22 11:11
Diablo-D3yup, they suffer the mostOct 22 11:11
Diablo-D3and they're too stupid to do the mathOct 22 11:11
oiaohmI Oct 22 11:12
Diablo-D3the only reason they dont care is they can afford to lose moneyOct 22 11:12
oiaohmDiablo-D3: some have a different theory.Oct 22 11:12
Diablo-D3us poor people cantOct 22 11:12
oiaohmDon't provide medical support Sick people die sooner so removing problem.Oct 22 11:12
Diablo-D3like, bill gates, over 2008, lost more money than the GDPs of some small countriesOct 22 11:12
Diablo-D3oiaohm: yes, but it costs so much money to train poor peopleOct 22 11:12
fewaDiablo-D3, 22 11:13
Diablo-D3just because they die doesnt mean you get what it cost to raise them backOct 22 11:13
fewathe rich doesn't sufferOct 22 11:13
fewaesp the rich that take pleasure in the suffering of othersOct 22 11:13
oiaohmAlso the schools in poor areas of the USA are not that well funded.Oct 22 11:13
Diablo-D3fewa: I think you misunderstoodOct 22 11:13
fewai doOct 22 11:13
Diablo-D3fewa: the top 10% pay more out than the bottom 90%Oct 22 11:13
Diablo-D3oiaohm: but they're funded.Oct 22 11:14
fewanot reallyOct 22 11:14
fewathe middle class are the ones that payOct 22 11:14
Diablo-D3oiaohm: if wealfare, public care, any public programs, and whatever else didnt exist, no, poor people wouldnt matterOct 22 11:14
fewathe upper 10% pay less than the middle classOct 22 11:14
fewafar lessOct 22 11:14
Diablo-D3fewa: not directly.Oct 22 11:14
fewayes, they pay lessOct 22 11:14
Diablo-D3fewa: per capita, they pay moreOct 22 11:14
fewalook to this to see why directly is BSOct 22 11:15
Diablo-D3all of them combined, they probably pay lessOct 22 11:15
fewabut there are a larger share of the economyOct 22 11:15
oiaohmTax system here suxs for middle class.Oct 22 11:15
fewathey should pay moreOct 22 11:15
Diablo-D3since theres about 1000 times more middle classOct 22 11:15
fewaoiaohm, probably not nearly as lopsided as the US'sOct 22 11:15
Diablo-D3taxes should probably be abolished anyhowOct 22 11:15
oiaohmUpper class has a lot more tax avoidance methods.Oct 22 11:15
fewaalmost solely paid by middle and lower-middle class hereOct 22 11:15
Diablo-D3we cant trust the government to use the money wiselyOct 22 11:15
fewanot just tax avoidance of upper, outright waivers, corporate welfare, etcOct 22 11:16
fewaand a vicious attack on the estate tax aka "death tax"Oct 22 11:16
fewacorporations are basically soverign entities in the USOct 22 11:17
oiaohmDiablo-D3:  mind you the goverments are kinda stupid.Oct 22 11:17
Diablo-D3oiaohm: yup, which is why I don't trust themOct 22 11:18
Diablo-D3I should actually be able to sue themOct 22 11:18
oiaohmJapan has worked it out due to that they are not going to have enough people to take care of there elderly.Oct 22 11:18
Diablo-D3japans mildly panicingOct 22 11:19
oiaohmThis is some of the problem they may not be enough skilled people to take care of the sick anyhow.Oct 22 11:19
oiaohmLittle bit more than mildy Diablo-D3Oct 22 11:19
oiaohm10 to 1 is really not good.Oct 22 11:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Flight booked for the next Ubuntu developer summit in Dallas.Looking forward to seeing friends again.Oct 22 11:19
fewaJapan doesn't have as many elderly as US Oct 22 11:20
fewabut I guess US pop is raising so more youngOct 22 11:20
fewawhile Japan is shrinkingOct 22 11:20
fewaand europe does not have as many elderly due to WW2Oct 22 11:20
oiaohmIT age is causing less children to be born.Oct 22 11:20
schestowitzre: "Japan doesn't have as many elderly as US " I think proportional to the overall population there is moreOct 22 11:20
schestowitzLook it up in Wikipedia to be sureOct 22 11:21
fewaschestowitz, yesOct 22 11:21
fewasecond part of sentenceOct 22 11:21
fewaits the strinking birth ratesOct 22 11:21
oiaohmMore and more faimallys are have 1 or none children.Oct 22 11:21
Diablo-D3[06:17:39] <oiaohm> Little bit more than mildy Diablo-D3Oct 22 11:21
Diablo-D3oiaohm: why do you think they're on the forefront of robotics?Oct 22 11:21
fewaalso the extremely high capital costs of societyOct 22 11:21
oiaohmDiablo-D3: exacty they are spending tons on robotics in the hope if provides a solution.Oct 22 11:22
Diablo-D3oiaohm: not only thatOct 22 11:22
Diablo-D3robotic womenOct 22 11:22
schestowitzCG girlsOct 22 11:23
Diablo-D3schestowitz: you cant stick your dick in a cg girl.Oct 22 11:23
schestowitzDiablo-D3: no need to descend to band langugageOct 22 11:24
schestowitzVMware profits drop by half 22 11:24
schestowitzMicrosoft's new fortressOct 22 11:24
schestowitz"Oracle has failed to persuade the European Commission that it will provide a safe home for MySQL." 22 11:25
Diablo-D3actuallyOct 22 11:25
Diablo-D3I wish oracle would kill mysql offOct 22 11:25
oiaohmDiablo-D3:  There is a secound problem.Oct 22 11:25
*Diablo-D3 so very hates mysqlOct 22 11:25
oiaohmMedical is getting to the point that lot of people could live to be over 100 years oldOct 22 11:25
oiaohmThat makes old age people a lot longer lasting problem.Oct 22 11:26
schestowitzGoldman Sachs: Pay Inequality Good ! < >Oct 22 11:27
schestowitzI actually found this in Moody's feedOct 22 11:27
oiaohmLiving to 200 years old is still problem matic.Oct 22 11:27
oiaohmdna stops replicating issue kicks in.Oct 22 11:28
schestowitzYou'd have to start earlyOct 22 11:28
schestowitzSo current generation might not enjoy thatOct 22 11:28
oiaohmLot of current people under 40 have good odd of living to over 100.Oct 22 11:29
oiaohmThat is of course if items like lack of sleep and the like don't destory there minds.Oct 22 11:29
oiaohmMost people have a pre programmed max live span in dna between 105 and 160.Oct 22 11:30
Diablo-D3wowOct 22 11:31
Diablo-D3you know whats funny as hell?Oct 22 11:31
Diablo-D3 22 11:31
Diablo-D3see that guy?Oct 22 11:31
Diablo-D3hes in #ck as bhOct 22 11:32
Diablo-D3and I never knew he was chineseOct 22 11:32
mutxmost people are chinese !!!Oct 22 11:33
oiaohmThat will change at some point mutxOct 22 11:33
mutxprobably only to "all people are chinese" :)Oct 22 11:34
oiaohmindia population will change it at some point.Oct 22 11:34
oiaohmchina population is reducing.Oct 22 11:34
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schestowitz 22 11:34
Diablo-D3most people are latino Oct 22 11:34
Diablo-D3think I'm kidding? go to texas some dayOct 22 11:34
Diablo-D3or floridaOct 22 11:34
satiperahello all, 22 11:34
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oiaohmDiablo-D3: world wide disagrees with you.  Latino is third on the list.Oct 22 11:35
mutxDiablo, you do know that there are other places and even countries apart from the US right :)Oct 22 11:35
Diablo-D3oiaohm: whats #2?Oct 22 11:35
oiaohmChinese, people from india then LatinoOct 22 11:35
Diablo-D3indian?Oct 22 11:35
Diablo-D3hehOct 22 11:35
Diablo-D3mutx: this was the joke I was makingOct 22 11:35
Diablo-D3my humor is clearly too superior for this audienceOct 22 11:36
mutxoh right, I get jokes LOL very funnyOct 22 11:36
mutxeven ones that bad )Oct 22 11:36
oiaohmRemember remove China and India from the earth and over 2/5 of the world population would be gone.Oct 22 11:37
oiaohmSome places are slightly over populated.Oct 22 11:37
fewaoiaohm, those places have always had high populationsOct 22 11:39
fewathey are very fertileOct 22 11:39
oiaohmstill china got to the point of over populateed and is working on the problem.Oct 22 11:40
oiaohmindia still has not worried about that problem yet.Oct 22 11:41
fewa*they have not reactedOct 22 11:41
fewathey have the same problem china hasOct 22 11:41
fewabut their government is comparatively weakOct 22 11:41
fewa"And finally, a cougar was spotted wandering near the software maker's suburban headquarters."Oct 22 11:43
mutxim fairly sure, if most governments told it's people that they could only have one child, they would not stay in politics long. come the next electuiOct 22 11:45
mutxelectionOct 22 11:45
schestowitzSymbian Releases Microkernel As Open Source, Finally 22 11:53
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schestowitz 22 12:02
schestowitzExample where police is used as a front for compnaiesOct 22 12:02
schestowitz 22 12:03
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "When Texan jurors turned to the Old Testament to determine if a man on death row should die..." 22 12:06
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schestowitz Sun, Oracle save Microsoft’s Pink after Danger data disasterOct 22 12:13
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phIRCeHello World!Oct 22 12:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Well, this is embarrassing Firefox is having trouble recovering your windows and tabs. This is usually caused by a recently opened web pageOct 22 12:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] LOLOct 22 12:33
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Reading TCE uses debian!Oct 22 12:34
phIRCeTitle: Debian -- Department of Computer and Engineering, Thiagarajar College of Engineering, Madurai, India  .::. Size~: 4.52 KBOct 22 12:34
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schestowitzzer0c00l: Ubuntu use Debian, too :-)Oct 22 12:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Yay! My graze box just arrived. Get a free one at - use code Q4PTNZM ! Om nom nom nom.Oct 22 12:45
zer0c00lschestowitz: :)Oct 22 12:46
Diablo-D3what.Oct 22 12:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Time Management for Anarchists yes, reallyOct 22 12:49
phIRCeTitle: Internet Archive: Free Download: Time Management for Anarchists #1 .::. Size~: 14.01 KBOct 22 12:49
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phIRCeTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBOct 22 12:50
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phIRCeTitle: Nissans Wild Land Glider EV May Yet Fly | Autopia | .::. Size~: 85.45 KBOct 22 12:54
schestowitz 22 12:57
phIRCeTitle: Ares I-X rocket hauled to launch pad for critical test flight | The Space Shot - CNET News .::. Size~: 85.99 KBOct 22 12:57
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schestowitz"Looks similar to Mr. Garrison’s invention on South Park. I hope it doesn’t require the same functionality like his ride too." *LOL*Oct 22 13:00
phIRCeTitle: eRinGo EV Concept Is a 3-Ring Circus | Autopia | .::. Size~: 75.49 KBOct 22 13:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Last night I watched the documentary Year Zero. It's a good reminder of important stuff that's censored.Oct 22 13:10
schestowitzNow PJ hypothesises that Microsoft wants to buy mysql with Monty's help. Far, FAR fetched.Oct 22 13:16
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schestowitz Another stupid rantOct 22 13:24
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schestowitz 22 13:24
phIRCeTitle: MariaDB - .::. Size~: 27.67 KBOct 22 13:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Appropriate image, opening a let the bad guys in to trash your home and steal your stuff. ROFL! 22 13:25
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | Technology | Start me up, Windows .::. Size~: 63.69 KBOct 22 13:25
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Takes Advantage of #Vista7 Problems to Market #GNU #Linux 22 13:58
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Should be Marketed for Its Good Applications, Too 22 14:00
phIRCeTitle: Raiden's Realm: Boosting Linux: Maybe we're going about it the wrong way? .::. Size~: 27.66 KBOct 22 14:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZiffDavis Verdict: #GNU #Linux Does Everything Vista7 Can Do 22 14:02
phIRCeTitle: LABS GALLERY: What Does Windows 7 Have That Linux Doesn't? .::. Size~: 46.18 KBOct 22 14:02
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Samsung Computers to Run #GNU #Linux , Then Maybe #Windows #bios #bootOct 22 14:03
phIRCeTitle: Phoenix Pre-Boot Will Appear in Samsung Notebooks - Reviews by PC Magazine .::. Size~: 90.83 KBOct 22 14:04
ThistleWebWhat does Windows have that Linux doesn't? Malware compatibility; it seems to be an enterprise requirementOct 22 14:06
schestowitzMaybe wine can bridge the gap. Maybe.Oct 22 14:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Oops, just tagged @jonobacon as a spammer on Silly layout meant I clicked 'Report User' by accident.Oct 22 14:10
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Camp #KDE 2010 Announced, #Usability Debated 22 14:15
phIRCeTitle: Camp KDE 2010 Registration Open! | .::. Size~: 10.2 KBOct 22 14:15
phIRCeTitle: aseigo: two simple things to improve the user experience .::. Size~: 162 KBOct 22 14:16
phIRCeTitle: KDE4 Demonstrates Choice Is Not A Usability Problem | .::. Size~: 22.35 KBOct 22 14:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora #GNU #Linux 13 Adds Exciting New Features 12: 22 14:17
phIRCeTitle: [Phoronix] First Fedora 13 Features Listed: NFSv4, DisplayPort .::. Size~: 15.67 KBOct 22 14:17
phIRCeTitle: Releases/13/FeatureList - FedoraProject .::. Size~: 14.66 KBOct 22 14:18
phIRCeTitle: GNOME Screenshots: Fedora 12 Beta Released « Begin Linux Blog .::. Size~: 43.21 KBOct 22 14:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Debian #Squeeze to Have #Linux 2.6.32 22 14:19
phIRCeTitle: Kernel 2.6.32 for Debian Squeeze - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 25.13 KBOct 22 14:19
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Canonical Prepares for Massive Demand for #GNU #Linux CDs 22 14:26
phIRCeTitle: Keeping Ubuntu CDs Available | The Fridge .::. Size~: 11 KBOct 22 14:26
phIRCeTitle: Getting Ready For Karmic Koala  Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu &. Which one should you use? .::. Size~: 59.38 KBOct 22 14:26
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Google's #Linux #Phones Listed, Some go PAYG 22 14:28
phIRCeTitle:   Android Avalanche: A Complete List Of The Android Phones So Far  .::. Size~: 205.6 KBOct 22 14:28
phIRCeTitle: Android goes PAYG • Register Hardware .::. Size~: 18.98 KBOct 22 14:29
phIRCeTitle: Google Open Source Blog: TalkBack: An Open Source Screenreader For Android .::. Size~: 72.34 KBOct 22 14:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Dell Puts #Linux on Mobile Internet Devices #midOct 22 14:29
phIRCeTitle: Dell Android MID makes web appearance - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 60.85 KBOct 22 14:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Applications for #Palm 's #Linux -powered Phones Now Visible on the Web 22 14:31
phIRCeTitle: Palm makes WebOS app catalog browseable on the web - you know, like Apple's should be .::. Size~: 95.8 KBOct 22 14:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla #Firefox 3.6 Promotes Free Fonts 22 14:34
phIRCeTitle: Mozilla to support Web Open Font Format in Firefox 3.6 - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 25.89 KBOct 22 14:34
phIRCeTitle: Mozilla Throws Its Weight Behind Improving Web Type  Adopts WOFF for Firefox - Webmonkey .::. Size~: 115.76 KBOct 22 14:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenOffice .org Has New Developer Snapshot 22 14:39
phIRCeTitle: New: OOo-DEV 3.x Developer Snapshot (build DEV300_m62) available - GullFOSS .::. Size~: 57.61 KBOct 22 14:39
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Maker #Metasploit Bought by #Rapid7 22 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] vou almoçar...Oct 22 14:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #MitchKapor Enthusiastic About #FreeSoftware 22 14:42
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Blender Takes Stock of Life as #FreeSoftware Program 22 14:43
phIRCeTitle: Building a Blender Bookshelf on .::. Size~: 72.95 KBOct 22 14:43
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSFE Founder Launches Open Database Alliance 22 14:45
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FSF Starts New Campaign 22 14:45
phIRCeTitle: freedom bits  » What Ive been doing: New Opportunities. .::. Size~: 59.75 KBOct 22 14:46
phIRCeTitle: Why is free software important to you?  Submit your response to our new video campaign! - Free Software Foundation .::. Size~: 27.59 KBOct 22 14:46
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DaemonFClooks like I made the right call on FedoraOct 22 14:50
DaemonFCFedora 12 has a brand new RadeonHD driver and Ubuntu Karmic won'tOct 22 14:50
MinceRkarmic lets you install on ext3, fedora doesn't :>Oct 22 14:52
MinceRat least 11 doesn'tOct 22 14:53
DaemonFCMinceR, Who cares?Oct 22 14:53
DaemonFC:DOct 22 14:53
MinceRi doOct 22 14:53
DaemonFCby that I mean I don't care, of courseOct 22 14:53
MinceRyou aren't expressing yourself clearlyOct 22 14:53
DaemonFCMinceR, the DVD version of Fedora does let you install to ext3, the livecd does notOct 22 14:53
MinceRohOct 22 14:54
MinceRi'll give that a try sometime, then.Oct 22 14:54
DaemonFCit's not like they're just going to rip support for it, so I would say you're safe to use itOct 22 14:54
MinceRdo they additionally supply an ext3 image on the dvd or do they use a different install method?Oct 22 14:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] UK #Government Shares Some Data, #CreativeCommons Makes More Gains 22 14:54
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | Technology | Government opens data to public .::. Size~: 51.63 KBOct 22 14:54
phIRCeTitle:   Al Jazeera Blogs Go CC - Creative Commons .::. Size~: 14.2 KBOct 22 14:55
DaemonFCMinceR, You have to select manual partitioning and use ext3 on all the partitions you want it onOct 22 14:55
MinceRi didOct 22 14:55
MinceRand then the installer said it can only install to ext4 from the image it hasOct 22 14:55
MinceR(did it want to use dd or something?)Oct 22 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Proprietary #EVoting Code Does Nefarious Things 22 14:55
phIRCeTitle: Sequoia Accidentally Reveals (Potentially Illegal?) E-Voting Code | Techdirt .::. Size~: 89.46 KBOct 22 14:55
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DaemonFCMinceR, It was a pain in the ass on my last system, I ended up being lazy and copying all the files I wanted to keep onto my Windows partition then formatting over XFS with Ext4Oct 22 14:56
*zer0c00l|away (n=user@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 14:56
DaemonFCthere's obviously no direct path from one to the other without formatting if you use XFSOct 22 14:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OpenSource #Database Foundation Designed to Protect Freedom of Data-organising Tools 22 14:56
phIRCeTitle: Is There an Open Source Database Ecosystem? - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 79.58 KBOct 22 14:56
MinceRi got off XFS alreadyOct 22 14:57
DaemonFCext3 kind of sort of upgrades to ext4, but I'd still format to get ext4 until they have e4defragOct 22 14:57
*zer0c00l|away is now known as zer0c00lOct 22 14:57
DaemonFCwhen they have that, you can remount ext3 as ext4 and immediately run e4defragOct 22 14:57
MinceRi'll probably stay on ext3 until btrfs is stableOct 22 14:57
zer0c00lMinceR: Its  because of a major bug in grub2Oct 22 14:57
MinceRhuh?Oct 22 14:57
DaemonFCMinceR, BtrFS will support ext3 and ext4 conversions with no formattingOct 22 14:58
DaemonFCso you're safe in any eventOct 22 14:58
MinceRDaemonFC: i've heard of itOct 22 14:58
zer0c00lMinceR: fedora guys didn't allow ext4 partition to be bootable;Oct 22 14:58
DaemonFCuse whatever you likeOct 22 14:58
DaemonFCzer0c00l, Fedora 12 doesOct 22 14:58
MinceRDaemonFC: is such in-place conversion in any way inferior to formatting anew?Oct 22 14:58
zer0c00lDaemonFC: yesOct 22 14:58
zer0c00lDaemonFC: grub2 is in rawhideOct 22 14:58
*chm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Oct 22 14:58
zer0c00l:DOct 22 14:58
DaemonFCFedora 11 is using original GRUBOct 22 14:58
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #OrphanedWorks Harmed by #IntellectualMonopolies 22 14:58
phIRCeTitle: open...: Won't Somebody Please Think of the Orphans? .::. Size~: 104.68 KBOct 22 14:58
DaemonFCoriginal GRUB hasn't been officially upgraded since like 1997Oct 22 14:58
DaemonFCit's a pretty sorry messOct 22 14:59
DaemonFCGRUB 2 is much much betterOct 22 14:59
DaemonFCoriginal GRUB was being kept together by unofficial distro patches getting tossed around, so every distro ended up with different GRUB-related bugs too, obviouslyOct 22 14:59
zer0c00lMinceR, DaemonFC  i m having ubuntu karamic in ext4 partition , after that i installed fedora 11 in ext3,fedora's grub was not able to boot ubuntu, then i enabled rawhide repo in fedora 11 and installed grub2 and everything works fine now Oct 22 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Internet #Censorship Plans in #Australia Exposed Through #Wikileaks 22 15:00
DaemonFCLILO was actually much less scary than GRUB in many ways. I always kind of wondered why they didn't just work on LILO instead of hack GRUB together with popsicle sticks and chewing gumOct 22 15:01
DaemonFCFSF politics no doubtOct 22 15:01
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBOct 22 15:01
DaemonFCWikileaks is downOct 22 15:03
mutxthere was nothing like installing linux, to be present for your effort with "li"Oct 22 15:04
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Life is so unfair :|Oct 22 15:04
MinceRDaemonFC: because LILO requires you to rerun the lilo app to apply changesOct 22 15:06
MinceRwhile GRUB can understand filesystemsOct 22 15:06
Diablo-D3and grub2 is awesomeOct 22 15:06
DaemonFCGRUB has also been the source of file system corruption bugsOct 22 15:07
DaemonFCincluding even ext3 from time to timeOct 22 15:07
DaemonFCone of those bugs was affecting RHEL a while backOct 22 15:08
Diablo-D3suspiciously sounds like bullshitOct 22 15:09
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Leaked Details Show High Levels of #Surveillance 22 15:10
phIRCeTitle: ur1 Generator .::. Size~: 2.27 KBOct 22 15:10
phIRCeTitle: One Nation, Under Surveillance - Homeland Stupidity .::. Size~: 46.33 KBOct 22 15:11
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Maria Berger, ex PSE MEP involved in the swpat directive, now judge at the ECJ: 22 15:11
phIRCeTitle: CURIA - Composition des chambres .::. Size~: 48.65 KBOct 22 15:11
*desu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Oct 22 15:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #CSIRO Shows That Patents Hinder Science #swpaytOct 22 15:17
phIRCeTitle: CSIRO Taxes Innovators To Fund Innovators? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 56.78 KBOct 22 15:18
phIRCeTitle: AppleInsider | Apple, others hit with lawsuit over '90s Ethernet patents .::. Size~: 54.38 KBOct 22 15:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at Evil #Patent Colonialists That #BillGates Promotes 22 15:21
phIRCeTitle: open...: Monsanto: Making Microsoft Look Good .::. Size~: 111.38 KBOct 22 15:22
phIRCeTitle: open...: No Patents on Seeds...or We're Really Stuffed .::. Size~: 98.64 KBOct 22 15:22
DaemonFCI called my congresscritter's office and chewed some assOct 22 15:22
DaemonFC:POct 22 15:22
DaemonFCI feel a little betterOct 22 15:22
DaemonFCI told them "I know he's missed half his votes to go play golf and if he's going to continue to obstruct healthcare reform, I'd rather pay him my tax money to go play some more golf and miss those votes"Oct 22 15:23
mutxit's funny how the CSIRO invented the concept, which was not obvious, but it was the Texas company that "innovated" the product. Oct 22 15:24
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: hehOct 22 15:28
Diablo-D3I think congress should be arrested for fraudOct 22 15:28
DaemonFCDan Burton = Total WhackjobOct 22 15:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IDG: #Vista7 Envies #GNU #Linux (KDE4?), "Starts out on the wrong foot" 22 15:29
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft's roadkill on the journey to Windows 7 ( - Software ) .::. Size~: 47.34 KBOct 22 15:30
Diablo-D3I mean, basicallyOct 22 15:30
Diablo-D3they're government contractorsOct 22 15:30
Diablo-D3and they're being paid to do a job they're not doingOct 22 15:30
DaemonFCDiablo-D3, They're playing both sides down the middleOct 22 15:32
Diablo-D3which means they should be shot for terrorismOct 22 15:32
DaemonFCA bill that does some good for Americans that doesn't cost big business money: ApprovedOct 22 15:32
Diablo-D3I think my way is more friendlyOct 22 15:32
DaemonFCA bill that's good for Americans that hurts the profits of a few mega corporations: DeniedOct 22 15:32
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] IDG: Customers Won't Buy #Vista7 (Ballmer Said so Too) 22 15:32
phIRCeTitle: Consumers Won't Pay $120 for Windows 7 Upgrade - PC World .::. Size~: 77.43 KBOct 22 15:32
DaemonFCWhy would they? Microsoft is backporting all the meat to Windows VistaOct 22 15:33
DaemonFCI'm sure they'll throw in a poison pill somewhereOct 22 15:33
DaemonFCRandall Kennedy surprised me with the honest nature of that Windows XP SP3 vs Vista vs 7 reviewOct 22 15:34
DaemonFCshowing that Windows 7 is a tad lighter than Vista but XP still runs rings around both of themOct 22 15:35
DaemonFCevery version of Windows up til Vista had enough good things added to it to compensate for the ~5-10% slowdown (especially if you had fast hardware)Oct 22 15:36
Diablo-D3 22 15:36
phIRCeTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBOct 22 15:36
Diablo-D3so waitOct 22 15:36
Diablo-D3a 7 patty burger...  for windows 7?Oct 22 15:36
Diablo-D3WHY THE HELL DONT I LIVE IN ..... taiwan? korea?Oct 22 15:37
Diablo-D3Im pretty sure thats not moonrunesOct 22 15:37
mutxI upgraded from XP SP3 to Win 7, I find win 7 to be crisper and quicker than XP, but ive not done any benchmarks, good enough and really fast is good enough.Oct 22 15:37
Diablo-D3mutx: 7s a fair bit better than XPOct 22 15:37
DaemonFCmutx, More responsive and much slower is possible at the same time mutx Oct 22 15:37
mutxyes, I think so too.Oct 22 15:37
Diablo-D3the real thing isOct 22 15:37
DaemonFCyou'll find that it runs games and gaming benchmarks slowerOct 22 15:38
DaemonFCbut yes, it "feels" faster because the kernel latency has been worked onOct 22 15:38
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: which is sadOct 22 15:38
Diablo-D3since its still slower than bfs linuxOct 22 15:38
mutxmy frame rate on WoW did not significantly change, again, it's way fast enough for me, so it's a non issue, as it was with XP.Oct 22 15:38
DaemonFCI was startled at how much faster it "felt" than VistaOct 22 15:38
Diablo-D3I could never game on windows (xp, vista, or 7) until they fix their insane input lag problemOct 22 15:38
DaemonFCbut it didn't run my games any betterOct 22 15:38
Diablo-D3I dont know how anyone games on windowsOct 22 15:39
Diablo-D3its insaneOct 22 15:39
Diablo-D3linux is so much better at itOct 22 15:39
DaemonFCin about half the things I've seen benchmarked, I recall that Vista with SP2 benchmarked better than Windows 7Oct 22 15:40
DaemonFCit's a tossup, I'd say they perform about the sameOct 22 15:40
mutxwhen I can (and do) open a document and have it on my screen before I can move my hand from the mouse to the keyboard, it's way quick enough.Oct 22 15:41
*Lefty_ (i=795eb2fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-minirpamuqhmsxiq) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 15:42
Lefty_I have sixteen IDs on Slashdot?Oct 22 15:42
Lefty_I didn't know I even had _one_.Oct 22 15:42
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: well, apparent latency is a problem tooOct 22 15:43
Diablo-D3an OS _can_ be slower if it feels fasterOct 22 15:43
Diablo-D3since its a desktop OS after allOct 22 15:43
Lefty_Can someone point me at all these IDs....? They're not doing anything there to pimp my web site, apparently.Oct 22 15:43
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzOct 22 15:44
*schestowitz has kicked Lefty_ from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Oct 22 15:44
Diablo-D3DaemonFC: I can honestly admit I'm impressed with 7 over VistaOct 22 15:44
Diablo-D3but 2k still > 7Oct 22 15:45
*Lefty_ (i=795eb2fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-fqepdzdbmqwzokfs) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 15:45
Diablo-D3and modern linux still > any windows everOct 22 15:45
*schestowitz sets ban on Lefty_!*@*Oct 22 15:45
*schestowitz has kicked Lefty_ from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Oct 22 15:45
Diablo-D3who is lefty anyhow?Oct 22 15:45
schestowitzSome crazy guyOct 22 15:45
mutxsomeone Roy does not like by the looks of it.Oct 22 15:45
schestowitzmutx: he breaks the policiesOct 22 15:45
mutxoh K. Oct 22 15:46
schestowitzAnd he runs a site dedicated to attacks on meOct 22 15:46
schestowitzI don't need to entertain him hereOct 22 15:46
mutxyes, running a site that attacks people is pretty bad, I agree. !!!Oct 22 15:46
*gargoyle-grin (n=randerso@gentoo/contributor/gargoyle-grin) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 15:46
schestowitzDiablo-D3: what's in 2k that's not in VIsta7?Oct 22 15:46
*SomeOtherGuy (i=795eb2fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-tcupwyzowzbblmvk) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 15:46
SomeOtherGuyReally, are you scared of a reasonable question, Roy?Oct 22 15:46
*schestowitz sets ban on SomeOtherGuy!*@*Oct 22 15:47
*schestowitz has kicked SomeOtherGuy from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Oct 22 15:47
Diablo-D3schestowitz: about 4gb of trash.Oct 22 15:47
Diablo-D3schestowitz: the only problem with 2k is its also missing all the modern stuffOct 22 15:47
schestowitzBut not in RAM, right?Oct 22 15:47
Diablo-D3no, 2k uses a lot less ramOct 22 15:47
schestowitzI mean, all you need it to do is run appsOct 22 15:47
Diablo-D3theres no reason for 7 to use that much eitherOct 22 15:47
*Lefty- (i=795eb2fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-wglmaiimdvgskjtq) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 15:47
schestowitzSecurity surely has not improved muchOct 22 15:47
*schestowitz has kicked Lefty- from #boycottnovell (User terminated!)Oct 22 15:47
Diablo-D3oh jesus christ dudeOct 22 15:48
Diablo-D3just ban his nickOct 22 15:48
schestowitzTo run apps you just need some platform that has even wineOct 22 15:48
schestowitzDiablo-D3: he'd use another nick/routeOct 22 15:48
schestowitzJust ignore itOct 22 15:48
mutxwhy not just confront the issues ?Oct 22 15:48
mutxand be done with it.Oct 22 15:48
Diablo-D3or just +q him hereOct 22 15:49
schestowitzBasically, people mostly run the OS to use a browser these daysOct 22 15:49
schestowitzBrowser, maybe games to some (younger people)Oct 22 15:49
MinceRor find out his netblock and ban all webchats coming from itOct 22 15:49
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Apple stock #AAPL hits all time high 22 15:49
phIRCeTitle: AAPL hits all-time high .::. Size~: 64.15 KBOct 22 15:49
schestowitzDiablo-D3: good for inveh!storsOct 22 15:50
schestowitzAnd to fanbois who dedicate their life to making some billionaires from CA rich(er)Oct 22 15:50
Diablo-D3its still worth notingOct 22 15:50
schestowitzMeh.Oct 22 15:51
schestowitzSome numbersOct 22 15:51
schestowitzThey quantify all sorts of thingsOct 22 15:51
schestowitzYou could measure other thingsOct 22 15:51
schestowitzApple grows among the rich populationsOct 22 15:51
schestowitzIt's about making money from hardwareOct 22 15:51
schestowitzLinux grows in market share, and not just for moneyOct 22 15:52
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phIRCeTitle: INTRNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY - OCTOBER 22 AND JUNE 28 .::. Size~: 4.91 KBOct 22 15:59
JPerlowthat was amusingOct 22 16:02
schestowitzISN'T IT VISTA7'S DAY?Oct 22 16:03
trmancoyeahOct 22 16:05
DaemonFC 22 16:05
DaemonFCThat's what happens when some jackass parents don't believe in immunizationsOct 22 16:06
DaemonFC"Conclusions This outbreak was caused by the importation of measles into a population of children whose parents had refused to have them vaccinated because of safety concerns about the vaccine. High vaccination levels in the surrounding community and low rates of vaccine failure averted an epidemic."Oct 22 16:06
schestowitzThere's no hype todayOct 22 16:07
schestowitzSo weird.Oct 22 16:07
schestowitzIt's like PR backfiredOct 22 16:07
DaemonFCthose parents should be floggedOct 22 16:08
schestowitzNo gremlins materialising magically in forums like when VIsta was releasedOct 22 16:08
DaemonFC"Estimated costs of containing the disease were at least $167,685, including $113,647 at a hospital with an infected employee."Oct 22 16:08
DaemonFCin other words "We don't believe in having our kids immunized, so we'll just turn them into a pandemic waiting to happen that costs the state hundreds of thousands of dollars to clean up"Oct 22 16:09
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] TODAY IS INTERNATIONAL CAPSLOCK DAY TELL EVERYONE <> #CAPSLOCKDAY (via @boycottnovell)Oct 22 16:09
schestowitzYes, there's lots of stuff about the subject in YouTubeOct 22 16:09
phIRCeTitle: INTRNATIONAL CAPS LOCK DAY - OCTOBER 22 AND JUNE 28 .::. Size~: 4.91 KBOct 22 16:09
phIRCeTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBOct 22 16:09
DaemonFCschestowitz: I Think they should make it a criminal offense to not get your children vaccinatedOct 22 16:09
schestowitzI GUESS i SHOULD LEAVE CAPS ONOct 22 16:09
zer0c00lschestowitz: lolOct 22 16:10
DaemonFCyou're playing games with the community's healthOct 22 16:10
*desu (n=desu@unaffiliated/desu) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 16:10
DaemonFCit's not just child abuseOct 22 16:11
DaemonFCcause their kid could get sick and cough on me, and maybe I was one of the 1-2% the vaccine didn't work onOct 22 16:11
DaemonFCnow I would be sick tooOct 22 16:11
DaemonFCit's a crime against societyOct 22 16:12
DaemonFC"In the early 2000s the MMR vaccine controversy in the United Kingdom regarding a potential link between the combined MMR vaccine (vaccinating children from mumps, measles and rubella) and autism prompted a reemergence of the "measles party", where parents deliberately expose their child to measles in the hope of building up the child's immunity without an injection. This practice poses many health risks to the child, and has been discouraged by thOct 22 16:13
DaemonFCe public health authorities."Oct 22 16:13
DaemonFCglad to see that stupidity is truly universalOct 22 16:13
schestowitzDaemonFC: 22 16:14
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Anti Vaccination Movement (1) - The Atheist Experience #589 .::. Size~: 154.77 KBOct 22 16:14
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[anivar] Boozing... (mallu type)Oct 22 16:18
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 16:24
DaemonFCschestowitz: I put my name on the list for the H1N1 vaccineOct 22 16:29
DaemonFCwhat the hell? It's freeOct 22 16:29
DaemonFCI wouldn't want to die cause I refused a free shotOct 22 16:29
DaemonFCthis woman my mom works with has it and so do her kidsOct 22 16:29
DaemonFCone of the kids was hallucinating yesterday :POct 22 16:30
zer0c00lPosting notices to using xmpp (pidgin) is slow :(Oct 22 16:32
zer0c00lTakes long time to show upOct 22 16:32
Diablo-D3zer0c00l: I hate the xmpp bridgeOct 22 16:33
Diablo-D3its useless crapOct 22 16:33
Diablo-D3use gwibber insteadOct 22 16:33
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: ok ;Oct 22 16:33
Diablo-D3also, the whole thing of using jabber is backwardsOct 22 16:33
Diablo-D3jabber isnt designed for mediums where you ignore most of the contentOct 22 16:33
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: Will it post my notices or what?Oct 22 16:33
DaemonFCI always get a flue shot, every yearOct 22 16:33
DaemonFClast time I had the flu, I think I was like 7 years oldOct 22 16:34
DaemonFC*fluOct 22 16:34
*iKonaK (n=user-0@ has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 16:34
Diablo-D3zer0c00l: wait a couple seconds.Oct 22 16:34
zer0c00lDiablo-D3: i am almost waiting for 15 mins :(Oct 22 16:34
DaemonFCI just don't get sick with anything that often, but a flu shot can't hurt anythingOct 22 16:34
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Sadly the frustration continues =P RT: @patrikgavin Windows 7 born from Vista's frustrations 22 16:34
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] I am posting this with #gwibberOct 22 16:34
phIRCeTitle: Windows 7 born from Vista's frustrations | Beyond Binary - CNET News .::. Size~: 215.14 KBOct 22 16:34
zer0c00lyeah, there comes my notice =POct 22 16:35
DaemonFCVista SP2 fixed a lot of the crap I was running intoOct 22 16:35
ThistleWebI'm not sure that's xmppOct 22 16:35
DaemonFCnot all of it by any means, but a lotOct 22 16:35
*schestowitz watches 22 16:35
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - The Day I Died. NDE + Consciousness Documentary Pt1 of 6 .::. Size~: 128.72 KBOct 22 16:35
ThistleWebI post to identica, which posts in turn to twitter, with identibash, and a firefox addon, as well as pidgin with jabber, the responses seem to vary on the twitter / identica sideOct 22 16:36
DaemonFCbblOct 22 16:36
schestowitzSo far this docu is funnyOct 22 16:36
ThistleWebmicroblogs are not meant to be instant messages anyway, if you set your client to refresh too often they'll block itOct 22 16:37
ThistleWebso if it refreshes every say 5 mins, does it really matter if it goes through instantly?Oct 22 16:37
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Free software tools to find/fight pr0n (via @sourceforge )Oct 22 16:39
phIRCeTitle: Community Hub .::. Size~: 3.89 KBOct 22 16:39
schestowitzWow. I can't believe the Beeb covered this mumbo jumboOct 22 16:44
schestowitzLike its documentary on string theory..Oct 22 16:44
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*schestowitz moves on to watching 22 16:46
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Power of Nightmares .. One of the Best BBC Documentaries ever Part 1 .::. Size~: 133.11 KBOct 22 16:46
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mutxyou think string theory is mumbo jumbo Roy ?Oct 22 16:50
JPerlowmutx: I have to admit its a bit of a strange concept but I can't do the mathOct 22 17:01
mutxyes, it is a very strange concept, but much of physics dont make any sense on normal human scales. Oct 22 17:02
mutxand I cant do that math for it either. Oct 22 17:02
JPerlowI've read kaku's books and also a few other m-theory booksOct 22 17:03
JPerlowvery weird stuff.Oct 22 17:03
mutxyes it is weird, but so is a photon travelling through spece for 10 billion years, yet the photon experiences no distance or time elapsed, so a photon does not experience the dimention of time.Oct 22 17:07
mutxor space or gravity.Oct 22 17:07
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Latest spam/marketing from Crucial says it all.. "Windows 7 is here: Crucial can help you get enough memory"Oct 22 17:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] RT @Ruskin147 I'm told 100s of Linux and Apple fans are demonstrating outside TVC about my win7 coverageOct 22 17:35
*zer0c00l|Away is now known as zer0c00lOct 22 17:51
trmanco 22 17:59
trmancololOct 22 17:59
phIRCeTitle: Picasa Web Albums - Chris - Japan Linux S... .::. Size~: 29.39 KBOct 22 17:59
schestowitz"Nice trolling)"Oct 22 18:24
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Quite a Timing: #Microsoft Senior Director Leaves 22 18:24
phIRCeTitle: Quite a Timing: Microsoft Senior Director Leaves | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 100.87 KBOct 22 18:25
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] According to Fedora licensing guidelines 'WTFPL' is a good license ;) 22 18:29
phIRCeTitle: Licensing:Main - FedoraProject .::. Size~: 150.26 KBOct 22 18:29
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] Seca do crl!Oct 22 18:29
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Linus torvolts and windows 7 (LOL)Oct 22 18:34
phIRCeTitle: Picasa Web Albums - Chris - Japan Linux S... .::. Size~: 29.39 KBOct 22 18:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Putting 312 cans of drink and 144 mugs into the car for OggCamp! 22 18:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Employee Wants the Company to Fire 20,000 More Staff 22 18:44
phIRCeTitle: Microsoft Employee Wants the Company to Fire 20,000 More Staff | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 103.91 KBOct 22 18:45
schestowitzbblOct 22 18:45
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mutxan anonamous MS employee LOL. sure !!Oct 22 18:49
Diablo-D3as a potential microsoft shareholder... why stop at 20k?Oct 22 19:03
mutxdoes anyone here know what happend to RHT in 2001 to cause it's share price to drop from $160 to $3 ??Oct 22 19:18
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC NEWS | Business | Nokia suing Apple over the iPhone 22 19:28
phIRCeTitle: BBC NEWS | Business | Nokia suing Apple over the iPhone .::. Size~: 49.05 KBOct 22 19:29
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Mark'Oh - United (official video)" ♫ 22 19:46
phIRCeTitle: | What are you listening to? .::. Size~: 28.31 KBOct 22 19:46
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Snoop Dogg - Gangsta Luv (Ft. The Dream) (Dirty) EXCLUSIVE 2009 DOWNLOAD LINK" ♫ 22 19:50
phIRCeTitle: | What are you listening to? .::. Size~: 28.31 KBOct 22 19:50
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "Martin Roth & Alex Bartlett - Off The World (Gareth Emery rmx)" ♫ 22 19:55
phIRCeTitle: | What are you listening to? .::. Size~: 28.31 KBOct 22 19:55
mutxplease !!! why do we care what you're listening too ??? Oct 22 19:56
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] listening to "David Guetta ft. Akon - Sexy Bitch (Official Video)" ♫ 22 20:00
phIRCeTitle: | What are you listening to? .::. Size~: 28.31 KBOct 22 20:00
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trmancomutx: in case you haven't noticed... it's coming from twitter...Oct 22 20:25
trmancoand you seem to be the only with problems about this... if you don't like it, ignore will do the jobOct 22 20:27
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Quick poll for Britsh people.. Computer pop up windows - "Dialog" or "Dialogue"?Oct 22 20:51
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[d235j] RT @drew: Raising money for cancer research is NOT easy. It keeps me up at night. Drew Carey is making it possible. Follow @DrewFromTVOct 22 20:55
*chm ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 20:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Grayson Introduces Amendment to Stop People From Going #Broke or Homeless Elizabeth Warren #hr3126Oct 22 21:12
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Alan Grayson Introduces Amendment to Stop People From Going Broke or Homeless .::. Size~: 178.1 KBOct 22 21:13
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - Professor Elizabeth Warren speaks about the Consumer Financial Protection Agency .::. Size~: 133.65 KBOct 22 21:13
schestowitzHey, _Hicham_Oct 22 21:18
schestowitzAh... I remember Elizabeth WarrenOct 22 21:19
fewa 22 21:23
phIRCeTitle: YouTube - The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class .::. Size~: 163.24 KBOct 22 21:23
schestowitzWas it /you/ who showed it to me months ago?Oct 22 21:23
*Lns (n=lns@pdpc/supporter/professional/lns) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 21:25
fewayeahOct 22 21:26
fewaalso Maxed OutOct 22 21:27
fewaon credit cards in the USOct 22 21:27
fewaand the assult on meaningful bankruptcyOct 22 21:27
_Hicham_hi Lord SchestowitzOct 22 21:33
fewasire Hicham?Oct 22 21:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Seeds of Doubt in #BillGates Investments 22 21:47
schestowitzMister _Hicham_. Been quiet recently?Oct 22 21:49
schestowitzYou must be working on an important project.Oct 22 21:49
voltronwschestowitz: why do you refer to yourself as "we" in BN posts?Oct 22 21:49
oiaohmNice phoronix is starting to intergrate there performance tracking into main kernel development.Oct 22 21:55
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oiaohmSomething I have been meaning to ask do USA still use letter size paper a lot.Oct 22 21:58
voltronwoiaohm: exclusivelyOct 22 21:59
oiaohmHere we are basically 100 percent A4Oct 22 22:00
oiaohmIts really annoying.Oct 22 22:00
fewawhy such a big dealOct 22 22:00
fewathey are almost the same sizeOct 22 22:00
oiaohmInstall Printer drivers defaults to paper then printer refused to print.Oct 22 22:01
oiaohmBecause it cannot find letter and is only load with A4Oct 22 22:01
voltronwfewa: iso paper sizes are better because they are proportional to each otherOct 22 22:01
voltronwfewa: as in A4 is half of A3Oct 22 22:02
oiaohmA5 is half  A4Oct 22 22:02
fewaahh thats coolOct 22 22:02
fewahalf in area or demensions?Oct 22 22:02
oiaohmHalf one demensionOct 22 22:02
oiaohmHalf the longest demension and rotate page.Oct 22 22:03
fewapart of American exceptionalismOct 22 22:03
fewasame with the metric systemOct 22 22:03
oiaohmThat process repeats for every A number increase.Oct 22 22:03
oiaohmA0 is one very big bit of paperOct 22 22:04
fewaA4 (210 × 297 mm).Oct 22 22:05
oiaohm  Oct 22 22:05
fewawhy such a wierd numberOct 22 22:05
oiaohmLook at the full A fewaOct 22 22:05
fewa1189 x 841 mmOct 22 22:05
fewawhy so wierdOct 22 22:05
fewawhy not the golden ratio?Oct 22 22:06
fewa1.4 ratioOct 22 22:06
fewalegal is golden ratioOct 22 22:07
oiaohmNumber 1 there is a 1 mm allowance for cutting.Oct 22 22:07
oiaohmIn the full sizes.Oct 22 22:07
oiaohmIts also the size paper that could be produced simply at the time the A standard was created fewaOct 22 22:08
fewabecause it has the same width as legal?Oct 22 22:08
fewa<oiaohm> Half one demensionOct 22 22:09
fewathats half areaOct 22 22:09
fewaits the ratio so you can do thatOct 22 22:09
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fewawith sqrt(2) ratioOct 22 22:09
oiaohmA0 is the production sheet size fewaOct 22 22:10
oiaohmAt that the time A0 was created.  Ie designed to cut down on waste.Oct 22 22:10
oiaohmThere is also  B sizes I have never seen if there are C sizesOct 22 22:11
oiaohmthat right C is envolopesOct 22 22:11
MinceRaren't B sizes used for books?Oct 22 22:14
oiaohmA and B are both used in books.Oct 22 22:15
oiaohmThat is the other important thing about A and B due to the fact pages are scale you can print a stack of pages on a flat sheet then fold them up into a book.Oct 22 22:15
oiaohmAlso that they are a scale if you want to print book smaller no problem.Oct 22 22:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[scientes] Matthews picks health insurance talking points? with Weiner Before After From CNBC 22 22:18
oiaohm  Just to make the complete matter of paper confusing as hell.  Ansi decided to use letters for sizes instead of numbers.Oct 22 22:22
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Sun , #Oracle , and #Microsoft Roles 22 22:25
*WhatsRoyAfraidOf (i=795eb2fe@gateway/web/freenode/x-swdoefirblvjliqj) has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 22:27
WhatsRoyAfraidOfToo bad, Roy's not around....Oct 22 22:27
oiaohm  Some days people ask to do the most warped things to wine.Oct 22 22:28
WhatsRoyAfraidOfevidently asking simple questions isn't tolerated around here....Oct 22 22:28
oiaohmLOL WhatsRoyAfraidOfOct 22 22:29
oiaohmOf course roy would not be here now.Oct 22 22:29
WhatsRoyAfraidOfI'm still trying to understand where this claim that I've got multiple IDs on /. came from.Oct 22 22:29
WhatsRoyAfraidOfit's not as though he's got anything better to do.Oct 22 22:29
WhatsRoyAfraidOf=DOct 22 22:29
oiaohmRoy is in england WhatsRoyAfraidOfOct 22 22:30
oiaohmCheck time.Oct 22 22:30
WhatsRoyAfraidOfYes, I'm well aware of that.Oct 22 22:30
WhatsRoyAfraidOfI guess that's why I'm not summarily kicked off.Oct 22 22:30
WhatsRoyAfraidOfBack to the question. :)Oct 22 22:30
oiaohmWriting style most likely.Oct 22 22:30
oiaohmYes can false positive.Oct 22 22:31
WhatsRoyAfraidOfasking embarassing questions, most likely.Oct 22 22:31
oiaohmMost people have a pattern of words they like using WhatsRoyAfraidOfOct 22 22:32
oiaohmFairly unique to writer.Oct 22 22:32
WhatsRoyAfraidOfaww, and little Brandon's not here, either. 悲しいよ!Oct 22 22:32
WhatsRoyAfraidOf:'(Oct 22 22:32
oiaohmMistakes do happen.Oct 22 22:33
WhatsRoyAfraidOfI'm surprised more of you haven't voted in my polls....Oct 22 22:33
WhatsRoyAfraidOfOr maybe all of you _did_. =/Oct 22 22:33
WhatsRoyAfraidOfWhen asked whether this site was a good source of news and analysis, 8/10 respondent in my pols answered "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"Oct 22 22:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Sitting down for a good shouting at the telly session with BBC Question Time #bbcqtOct 22 22:34
WhatsRoyAfraidOfThe logs from the 19th are quite entertaining.Oct 22 22:36
WhatsRoyAfraidOfIf "twitter" was trying to make himself look better, or even sane, I'd have to say it was a failed effort.Oct 22 22:37
*trmanco gives channel operator status to MinceROct 22 22:41
*MinceR sets ban on *!?=795eb2fe@*Oct 22 22:41
*MinceR has kicked WhatsRoyAfraidOf from #boycottnovell (you're not welcome here)Oct 22 22:41
oiaohmOk who was that.Oct 22 22:42
trmancoLOLOct 22 22:43
oiaohmluxsux or something.Oct 22 22:43
trmancono reallyOct 22 22:43
trmanconot*Oct 22 22:43
MinceRleftyOct 22 22:43
*PetoKraus has quit ("Leaving")Oct 22 22:44
oiaohmO that fool.  Dumb enough to post the exact same thing under multi users names with the same text.Oct 22 22:44
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Julian will visit me next weekend (we're still friends). Needs help with Fedroa 8 (Werewolf). I think he understands the benefits of LNX.Oct 22 22:45
oiaohm  Now this might at long last deal with the distrobution not agreeing on package management.Oct 22 22:47
schestowitzOh, I wasn't paying attentionOct 22 22:49
schestowitzJust finished 3 posts, gonna take a shower.Oct 22 22:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Banshee is #Novell , #Mono , and ‘Forbidden’ #Microsoft #SoftwarePatents #swpatOct 22 22:49
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Needs to install Fedora 8 for his study (Nope, I didn't talked him into it) :-pOct 22 22:51
oiaohmDoes not matter schestowitz person wanting to challage you should only really do it at suitable times for your timezone.Oct 22 22:52
schestowitzHey, that's new: 22 23:02
schestowitz 22 23:04
schestowitzAP tries to stamp text 22 23:05
sebsebsebAnyone hear about the Windows 7 burger?Oct 22 23:05
schestowitz,0,141534,full.storyOct 22 23:06
schestowitzsebsebseb: Diablo-D3 posted a photo of itOct 22 23:06
sebsebseb 22 23:06
schestowitzThere's tons of TV ads today about Vista 7Oct 22 23:06
schestowitzVery poor ads, IMHOOct 22 23:06
schestowitzI saw a few earlierOct 22 23:06
sebsebsebI have only seen this burger so farOct 22 23:06
schestowitz"I made it" or "it's my idea" is the mottoOct 22 23:07
schestowitzIn Aussie they use "security"Oct 22 23:07
schestowitzI find that hilariousOct 22 23:07
schestowitzThey know it's not more secure, but VIsta 7 has no selling pointsOct 22 23:07
schestowitzRemember Seinfeld and shows?Oct 22 23:07
schestowitz*ShoesOct 22 23:07
schestowitzIt figures. Vista and Vista 7 are about... nothingOct 22 23:07
schestowitz"It's a show... about NOTHING".Oct 22 23:07
sebsebsebI guess I never saw the proper Seinfield advertOct 22 23:07
MinceRi wonder how much they paid BK for thisOct 22 23:07
sebsebsebwould be rather filling and unhealtheyOct 22 23:08
schestowitzSeinfeld (the Show about Nothing TV-Promo) 22 23:08
sebsebsebthere double whoopers and a bit basicalleyOct 22 23:08
sebsebsebthree aboveOct 22 23:08
schestowitzsebsebseb: Vista 7 gives you coronary diseaseOct 22 23:09
schestowitzThen you need to have a surgery called McAfee or NortonOct 22 23:09
sebsebsebwell Microsoft have a  free  basic virus protection product nowOct 22 23:09
schestowitzLinux tooOct 22 23:10
sebsebsebUbuntu 9.10 release candidate also todayOct 22 23:12
sebsebsebon the verge of vming it, since  my install here that I been doing since alpha 4 well...Oct 22 23:12
sebsebseblast night I was trying Mandriva  2010  RC1  Gnome  in vm,  that I had downloaded a while ago,  RC2 being out nowOct 22 23:13
sebsebsebseems okOct 22 23:13
schestowitzI'm waiting for Mandriva 2010Oct 22 23:13
sebsebsebmaybe the KDE 4 version is better some how, but I don't like KDE 4 muchOct 22 23:13
sebsebsebthe one I tried didn't seem that specialOct 22 23:14
sebsebsebseems can set loads of  stuff up  using a nice graphical interface,  Ubuntu should be more like that reallyOct 22 23:15
sebsebsebwell I already knew about the control centre, and I had tried doing Mandriva before in vm,  but stuff would go wrong etcOct 22 23:15
sebsebsebschestowitz  also when I installed  that Mandriva into vm, it seems I coudn't do Ext4 or something hmmOct 22 23:16
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] is why I asked about dialog/dialogue. Pondered whether this was a bug or not.Oct 22 23:17
schestowitz 22 23:21
sebsebsebhmm got someone that  is telling me again that  they want  to buy a Mac,  plus now they have new designs or somethingOct 22 23:23
oiaohmMandriva gnome is scary vm or not sebsebsebOct 22 23:24
oiaohmMost of mandriva developers focus on KDE.Oct 22 23:24
sebsebseboh so your saying the Gnome version sucks really?Oct 22 23:25
schestowitzIt's more future-lookingOct 22 23:25
schestowitzGNOME rests a little too much on its laurels IMHO, with little improvement to gtk tooOct 22 23:25
schestowitzjono complained about thisOct 22 23:25
schestowitzsebsebseb: maybe they added more gnome focus when kde 4.0 was outOct 22 23:25
schestowitzThey couldn't quite serve .0 to the clientsOct 22 23:26
schestowitzNow the tide is shiftingOct 22 23:26
schestowitzAnd GNOME shall enter 3.0, which might lead to similar temporary instabilityOct 22 23:26
schestowitzGNOME releases often, with small changesOct 22 23:26
schestowitzUneven numbers are less stableOct 22 23:26
schestowitzI got some mail about this... 22 23:27
schestowitzNokia shows it's a patent whoreOct 22 23:27
sebsebsebok this Gnome KDE thing I wasn't following or uhmm understanding fullyOct 22 23:27
sebsebsebKDE 4 is more future looking?Oct 22 23:27
sebsebsebGnome doesn't  give back to GTK much?Oct 22 23:28
schestowitzsebsebseb: extensibleOct 22 23:28
schestowitzQt's latest had nice stuffOct 22 23:28
schestowitzLet me find demosOct 22 23:28
MinceRaren't they making Gnome 3?Oct 22 23:28
sebsebsebevery time I tried KDE 4  as GUI, I would be like eww no, this is to differnet to KDE 3Oct 22 23:28
sebsebsebmaybe if I customize a bit though here and there I can get something I likeOct 22 23:29
schestowitz 22 23:29
sebsebseb,but  I didn't want to  customize it, I just wanted defaults that I was happy withOct 22 23:29
schestowitzIt also has OGL-enabled featuresOct 22 23:29
schestowitzSo that you can have many overlapping objectsOct 22 23:29
schestowitzIIRC, Shuttlewotth spoke about the possibility of Qt-based gbnomeOct 22 23:30
schestowitz 22 23:31
schestowitz 22 23:31
schestowitz 22 23:31
voltronwschestowitz: that article is 2 years old. no work has been done toward that goalOct 22 23:31
schestowitzLily quits tecynology: 22 23:32
schestowitzMaybe she was getting abuse for being anti-advancementOct 22 23:32
schestowitzvoltronw: July 2008Oct 22 23:33
cubezzzall the news places are talking about windows 7Oct 22 23:33
oiaohmI am the other way over sebsebseb I work with KDE 4.3 and like it.Oct 22 23:33
sebsebsebcubezzz yeah BBC technolgoy section probably have something not seen that yetOct 22 23:34
sebsebsebapparantly   consumer support for  XP,  Vista, and 7, all run out in 2014Oct 22 23:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] So Microsoft lied all along about Blu-ray? 22 23:34
sebsebsebor whatever someone here  was saying the other dayOct 22 23:35
cubezzzsebsebseb, then what?Oct 22 23:35
cubezzzoh that's right, 128-bit windows :)Oct 22 23:35
sebsebsebextended support for businessOct 22 23:35
sebsebseband  there will be a new version of Windows in 2014 I expect or just before thenOct 22 23:36
oiaohmNext 12 months the Linux push will expand.Oct 22 23:36
cubezzzI already thought XP was too slowOct 22 23:37
sebsebsebI have heard of  some sales department going Debian about a month agoOct 22 23:37
cubezzzbut whatever, I don't really use it Oct 22 23:37
sebsebseb,but  also  yesterday evening about a hospital going OpenSuseOct 22 23:37
sebsebsebI don't have full detailsOct 22 23:37
oiaohmX11 getting released on time is going to shock a lot of people.Oct 22 23:37
schestowitzcubezzz: 128-slice toasterOct 22 23:37
oiaohmNever has happened in the complete history of the X11 project yet.Oct 22 23:38
sebsebseband when companies and such  go Linux,  some of the employees want to at home.Oct 22 23:38
schestowitzoR GOVTsOct 22 23:38
*schestowitz disabled CAPSOct 22 23:38
oiaohmsebsebseb: no really most cases more work gets done.Oct 22 23:38
schestowitzGovt->business->homeOct 22 23:38
sebsebsebSales department went  Debian, and then a woman wanted help with UbuntuOct 22 23:38
schestowitzThus EDGI, ousting of Peter Quinn....Oct 22 23:39
sebsebsebhospital went opensuse, so another woman bought a Linux magazine, and ended up putting Ubuntu onOct 22 23:39
cubezzzI might try the Fedora 12 betaOct 22 23:40
cubezzzor just go Fedora 11Oct 22 23:40
sebsebsebthis idea that people use what works use though hmm, well  if  enough home users went Desktop Linux,  I think  small businesses and such would start to as well actsaulleyOct 22 23:40
oiaohmNot the way it works sebsebsebOct 22 23:40
oiaohmMost people use at home what they use at work.Oct 22 23:40
cubezzzI never did :)Oct 22 23:41
oiaohmMost businesses use what is taught in schools.Oct 22 23:41
oiaohmSo forget worrying about home or business covert schools win.Oct 22 23:41
oiaohmMS came aware of this early on.Oct 22 23:41
*_goblin ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 23:41
cubezzzI have to admit, Microsoft does hit the schools Oct 22 23:42
cubezzzwouldn't mind so much if it was a 50/50 splitOct 22 23:42
schestowitzBallmer Blames the Failure of Windows Vista on Security 22 23:42
schestowitzcubezzz: f13 plan is outOct 22 23:43
oiaohmThere is a growing number of countires now with pure Linux school system.Oct 22 23:43
schestowitzYesOct 22 23:43
oiaohmLong term results is those countries will mostly run on LinuxOct 22 23:43
schestowitzMostly SAOct 22 23:43
schestowitzBrazilOct 22 23:43
schestowitzSome in EuropeOct 22 23:43
*cubezzz nodsOct 22 23:43
schestowitzParticular regionsOct 22 23:43
schestowitzAnd Russia soonOct 22 23:43
cubezzzCanada is really behind in this regardOct 22 23:43
schestowitzNot just the Pram regionOct 22 23:44
oiaohmWindows 7 does nothing to address the secuirty problem.Oct 22 23:44
schestowitzcubezzz: coz' CA speaks EnlighsOct 22 23:44
schestowitzThe English-speaking countries are diplomatic with Gates & CroniesOct 22 23:44
cubezzzand French don't forgetOct 22 23:44
schestowitzNoOct 22 23:44
schestowitzFrance has SarkoOct 22 23:45
oiaohmIBM is going to make a push at the desktop.Oct 22 23:45
schestowitzThe whore of US businessOct 22 23:45
schestowitzBut French people resent the USOct 22 23:45
schestowitzMore so than some of EuropeOct 22 23:45
*Xarver ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 22 23:45
schestowitzAnd they want their own software and cuisine and lifestyleOct 22 23:45
cubezzzschestowitz, I meant French as in Quebec :)Oct 22 23:45
schestowitzFrance is said to be #1 FOSS adopter in EU ATMOct 22 23:46
schestowitzI was in Quebec some years ago and some don't speak EnglishOct 22 23:46
cubezzzthat's trueOct 22 23:46
schestowitzIt's like country inside a countryOct 22 23:46
cubezzzmost of the Montrealers do thoughOct 22 23:46
schestowitzVancouver has a lot of Chinese immigrationOct 22 23:46
schestowitzI had a flatmate from there many years agoOct 22 23:47
oiaohmThing is open source has been making progress.  Just lots of people want to disregard it.Oct 22 23:47
schestowitzFree softwareOct 22 23:47
schestowitzLibreOct 22 23:47
schestowitzIn SAOct 22 23:47
oiaohm  Now we are starting to see this.Oct 22 23:47
schestowitzMatter of independence, not just codingOct 22 23:48
oiaohmSo open source does not have enough games.Oct 22 23:48
oiaohmLets make it simple for people to create games.  So long term fixing the problem.Oct 22 23:48
schestowitzLINA is comingOct 22 23:49
schestowitz1.0 betaOct 22 23:49
cubezzzncurses games ftwOct 22 23:49
oiaohmLike open source is not lacking 2d games.Oct 22 23:49
oiaohmIts mostly lacking 3d games.Oct 22 23:50
schestowitzLinux advocate ravi is coming back.. 22 23:50
schestowitzcubezzz: >> you are in a maze with 2 openingsOct 22 23:50
schestowitzpick daggerOct 22 23:50
cubezzzWIndows and Linux doors? :)Oct 22 23:50
schestowitz>> you have no handsOct 22 23:50
cubezzzI still play Lands of Lore sometimesOct 22 23:51
cubezzzon dosboxOct 22 23:51
*chm has quit (Remote closed the connection)Oct 22 23:52
schestowitzI had Street Brawler a while backOct 22 23:52
schestowitzSome emulators ran it at the wrong speedsOct 22 23:52
cubezzzI'd buy a nice Linux adventure game for certainOct 22 23:52
schestowitzIt's good to know that nostalgia is salvageable shall you ever wish to rerun itOct 22 23:52
schestowitzIf you want a Linux adventure get LFSOct 22 23:53
cubezzzuhhhOct 22 23:53
cubezzzI did actually Oct 22 23:53
oiaohm  Notice something here.Oct 22 23:53
oiaohmHmmOct 22 23:53
oiaohmI was not going for bold.Oct 22 23:53
oiaohmNumbers of PC games being released these days.Oct 22 23:54
cubezzzyeah it's decreasingOct 22 23:54
oiaohmMasively so.Oct 22 23:54
oiaohmLike that is only 2 games a week.Oct 22 23:54
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Animals are welcomed to the 21st century. Mildly disturbing. (via rms)Oct 22 23:54
oiaohmHow long until is 2 games a month.Oct 22 23:55
schestowitzDepleted Uranium Weapons: The Dead Babies in Iraq and Afghanistan Are No Joke 22 23:55
schestowitzRMS: "3/4 of the babies born in Falluja are deformed — probably because of Dirty Uranium used by the Bush forces. Countries which are allied with the US should think twice about whether to allow the US to "defend" them in such a deadly fashion."Oct 22 23:55
schestowitzSo... Oct 22 23:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] US forces go to take away imaginary weapons of mass destruction and use some themselves 22 23:57
schestowitzStupid neoconsOct 22 23:59
schestowitzWar crimes.Oct 22 23:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "President Obama is fighting back against FOX." 22 23:59

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