Boycott Novell logo

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 7th, 2010

schestowitztessier: give Marble a try for OpenStreetMap with GUIJan 07 00:00
schestowitztessier: I can't log in to admin panel, maybe a cookie issueJan 07 00:10
tessierYeah...just a sec...Jan 07 00:10
schestowitzThanksJan 07 00:10
tessierTry nowJan 07 00:11
tessierI'm experimenting with various things. Overall the site is still caching very poorly. Not sure why. Only getting a 40% cache hit rate.Jan 07 00:12
cubezzz"Is it insane to insist that Microsoft put Windows on the XO? Of course, especially when it turns out that no government wants it, and the volunteers hate it. Microsoft paid to have Windows XP put on 5,000 units which it donated to governments for trials. Nobody has ordered any since."Jan 07 00:14
tessierhehJan 07 00:15
schestowitztessier: I think I might need to flush old cookies? It doesn't work yet. I can't log inJan 07 00:16
tessierCookie should get automatically reset when you successfully login. No need to flush old.Jan 07 00:17
tessierWhat url are you logging in to?Jan 07 00:18
tessierIt should be allowing cookies on anything matching "wp-(login|admin)"Jan 07 00:18
schestowitzOh, I see..Jan 07 00:19
schestowitzThat sorted itJan 07 00:20
schestowitzThere are other routes in, I took the one you suggested :-)Jan 07 00:20
schestowitztessier: any advice you give me on how to reduce the strain I would welcome and act uponJan 07 00:20
schestowitzTo sort of recap, we had two WordPress pluginsJan 07 00:20
schestowitzOne is: supercacheJan 07 00:21
schestowitzThis is considered better than wp-cacheJan 07 00:21
schestowitzAnother one is db-cacheJan 07 00:21
schestowitzDB cache -- rather than caching pages -- look at similar queriesJan 07 00:21
schestowitzFor instance, fetching of comment X or sidebar contentsJan 07 00:21
schestowitzThe issue with the latter is that it cached also user logins and stuffJan 07 00:21
schestowitzSo people could not log in to comment, unless they waited for cache to expire, which was funny :-)Jan 07 00:22
tessierAre there any unnecessary plugins that can be turned off? Aside from the caching stuff?Jan 07 00:23
schestowitzSo now I have just supercache, which is enabled and caches about 1000 pages at any given time (it's expiry based, with time set to about 10 hours). Since mostly newer items are fetched (including RSS), this probably helps a good dealJan 07 00:23
schestowitztessier: yesJan 07 00:23
tessierSupercache should be goodJan 07 00:23
schestowitzLet me see what I haveJan 07 00:23
schestowitzI think the comments put pressure on the DBJan 07 00:23
tessierThe WP optimization guide I read said that unnecessary plugins make caching hard.Jan 07 00:23
tessierAnd hit performance.Jan 07 00:23
tessierComments are nice to have though.Jan 07 00:23
schestowitzI use a plugin for threaded comments, from a previous version (it's not built in, but I would lose structure of comments if it's disabled)Jan 07 00:23
tessierBut the comment pages themselves should be cached.Jan 07 00:24
tessierOnly when someone posts a comment should the db get hitJan 07 00:24
schestowitztessier: yes, when I required login to comment I reduced # of comments a lot, in newer postsJan 07 00:24
schestowitzWe used to get far more comments beforehand, including abusive and anonymous trollsJan 07 00:24
tessierI don't care for having to login to comment but with spam it has become almost necessaryJan 07 00:24
tessierrightJan 07 00:25
schestowitz:-)Jan 07 00:25
schestowitzLEt me check plguinsJan 07 00:25
schestowitzwp-cronJan 07 00:25
schestowitzThat's called a lotJan 07 00:25
tessierWhat does it do?Jan 07 00:25
schestowitzI think a time-based plugin uses itJan 07 00:25
schestowitzFor timing, to see whether to invoke actionJan 07 00:25
schestowitzIt's like a simple polling thingJan 07 00:25
*schestowitz just disabled a scarcely-used plguinJan 07 00:27
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tessierWere you able to login?Jan 07 00:30
tessierhttp://varnish.projects.linpro.no/wiki/VarnishAndWordpress is the WP tuning page I'm looking atJan 07 00:31
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 00:31
schestowitztessier: yes, I'm in. I used another route (with the wildcards you mentioned) to get inside.Jan 07 00:33
tessierOkJan 07 00:33
schestowitztessier: thanks a lot!Jan 07 00:33
tessierwelcomeJan 07 00:33
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #WindowsMobile Suffers Another Defeat Amid #Linux Triumphs http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/recent-delay-xperia-x2-uk-canceled/Jan 07 01:02
phIRCe-localTitle: Windows Mobile Suffers Another Defeat Amid Linux Triumphs | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.55 KBJan 07 01:02
cubezzzTRIUMPH! ;-)Jan 07 01:05
cubezzzand they're Canadian eh?Jan 07 01:06
cubezzzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_(band)Jan 07 01:06
phIRCe-localTitle: Triumph (band) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 58.59 KBJan 07 01:06
*pentarex has quit ("AA is For Quitters !!! :D")Jan 07 01:08
trmancohey,don't make fun of us :-PJan 07 01:12
trmancoCUPS and the CUPS logo are trademarks of Apple Inc. CUPS is copyright 2007-2009 Apple Inc. All rights reserved.Jan 07 01:21
trmancoLOLJan 07 01:21
trmancoit has an improved web interfaceJan 07 01:21
trmancoit looks better than the last oneJan 07 01:21
*ThistleWeb (n=gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 01:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple 's Number 1 Product: Fake Hype http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/apple-controls-coverage/Jan 07 01:32
phIRCe-localTitle: Apples #1 Product: Fake Hype | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.35 KBJan 07 01:32
schestowitzWow. Something very strange happened. I think the caching made a post of mine disappearJan 07 01:33
schestowitzOne one post overwrite the previousJan 07 01:33
trmancothat's weirdJan 07 01:36
schestowitzAnd now come the zombiesJan 07 01:37
schestowitzload average: 16.98, 7.32, 3.55Jan 07 01:37
*DaemonFC (n=chatzill@c-69-245-224-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 01:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] FSA to charge iSoft founder and three former directors | Business | guardian.co.uk http://tinyurl.com/y9d8v4oJan 07 01:44
schestowitzOMG, I see what happens nowJan 07 01:55
schestowitzIt sort of overrides the older postsJan 07 01:55
schestowitzAmazingly lameJan 07 01:55
schestowitztessier: there's some funny effect on the editing processJan 07 01:58
tessierI see...Jan 07 01:58
schestowitzThere's also more of those rogue machines on the server in the past 30 minutesJan 07 01:59
tessierIt is always mysql getting hammered that does it.Jan 07 02:00
DaemonFCCOPS!!!!Jan 07 02:00
DaemonFC:DJan 07 02:00
tessierIs /wp-admin/admin-ajax.php something you are polling?Jan 07 02:00
schestowitzThe IPs come from different places altogetherJan 07 02:00
tessierSeems to be getting hit rather often.Jan 07 02:00
schestowitztessier: yesJan 07 02:01
schestowitztessier: yes, when editing it pollsJan 07 02:01
DaemonFCHP used to have ads with the catch phrase "The computer is personal again"Jan 07 02:02
DaemonFCNintendo should have one that says "The PC is boring again"Jan 07 02:02
DaemonFCI still need to figure out how to use the Wiimote in LinuxJan 07 02:03
DaemonFCsome guy had it set up to control TotemJan 07 02:03
DaemonFCto where you can use gestures to maneuver through the playlistJan 07 02:04
schestowitzIt's going sort of crazy with editingJan 07 02:04
DaemonFCschestowitz: I found that Windows Media Player imposes a frequency cutoff on AAC files that is lower than the AAC file is encoded atJan 07 02:05
tessierschestowitz: Why does it have to poll anything when you are editing something?Jan 07 02:07
schestowitzOh, I KNOW what happened.....Jan 07 02:09
schestowitzWhen O reopen a page like "edit.php"Jan 07 02:09
schestowitzThen it treated is as cacheableJan 07 02:09
schestowitzSo when I started a new post it reopened to previous oneJan 07 02:10
schestowitzLuckily, I lost no dataJan 07 02:10
schestowitzBut at least I now have an explanation and I know it's under controlJan 07 02:11
schestowitztessier: WOrdPress autosaves and checks changes that I makeJan 07 02:11
rnbeh? i never saw WP do thatJan 07 02:11
rnbweirdJan 07 02:11
tessierDoes this prevent you from editing the site? Do I need to fix something?Jan 07 02:11
schestowitzrnb: it doesn't, but we are caching a lotJan 07 02:11
schestowitztessier: I have a workaroundJan 07 02:11
rnbschestowitz: do you know if your server is running APC or zend caching?Jan 07 02:11
schestowitzI had some other tricks to working around cacheJan 07 02:11
tessierOk well let me know if this causes you problems. So far the cache isn't working nearly as well as I would like but I'll keep fine tuning it as i learn more about varnish.Jan 07 02:12
tessierThis *should* help us weather DDoS much more easily but something still isn't quite right.Jan 07 02:12
schestowitztessier: is the plan to keep this setup temporarily until those spikes cease?Jan 07 02:12
tessierschestowitz: I would like to keep it permanently if I makes things as much faster as it should and does not cause you problems.Jan 07 02:13
tessiers/I/it/Jan 07 02:13
schestowitzThe thing is, we can't do comments, rating, and I can't preview posts when they are draftsJan 07 02:14
tessierI can turn off caching for any parts of the site that cannot handle it.Jan 07 02:14
tessierOk....let me turn off the cookies thing then and see how it goes.Jan 07 02:14
tessierTurn off the cookie filtering, that is.Jan 07 02:14
tessierOk, try it nowJan 07 02:15
schestowitzThe Wiki has the cookie thing too :-)Jan 07 02:16
tessierRight. I turned off cookie filtering for the whole site.Jan 07 02:17
tessierWith supercache and varnish in front the site should be able to handle a slashdotting.Jan 07 02:17
tessierIf everything is configured properlyJan 07 02:17
schestowitzNice. Previews and comments now workJan 07 02:18
schestowitzAs far it as I can tell... let's see the WikiJan 07 02:18
schestowitztessier: thanks so much, let me look...Jan 07 02:18
tessierA site is supposed to only send cookies for logged in users. But my understanding is that WordPress sends cookies for pretty much everything which makes it uncacheabe.Jan 07 02:18
tessieruncacheable Jan 07 02:18
tessierBut graphics and css and js etc. should be cacheable.Jan 07 02:19
tessierUnfortunately it's the actual dynamically generated pages and resulting database load that kills a server.Jan 07 02:19
rnbtessier: that's PHP sending the cookies, right?Jan 07 02:19
tessierrnb: Not sure.Jan 07 02:20
rnbtessier: it'll send the cookie if you use sessions anywhere and it doesnt know if your app user is logged in or notJan 07 02:20
tessierrnb: I thought if the user didn't have a valid cookie they aren't logged in?Jan 07 02:21
schestowitztessier: it caches the wiki too. Very nice!Jan 07 02:26
tessierIt didn't before?Jan 07 02:26
tessierI mean as of a few minutes ago...Jan 07 02:27
schestowitztessier: it works well now (the Wiki editing). The thing that might confuse people is that after editing the page appears without the changes cause it gives again the caches version (old).Jan 07 02:27
schestowitztessier: beforehand it said I needed cookies to log inJan 07 02:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gartner Group Acquires More #Microsoft Boosters #burton http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/gartner-burton-group/Jan 07 02:27
tessierA shift-reload might get you an uncached version of the pageJan 07 02:28
tessierAlthough my understanding is that varnish does not cache if you have cookies set. So they should get a fresh version of the page.Jan 07 02:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Gartner Group Acquires More Microsoft Boosters | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 91.55 KBJan 07 02:28
tessierLogged in users usually don't get anything cached.Jan 07 02:28
rnbrnb: well, i dont know exactly how WP works but i imagine it sets a $_SESSION variable to indicate loginJan 07 02:29
rnber, that was to tessierJan 07 02:29
rnbtessier: but PHP will send a cookie to establish a session with any un-sessioned client it comes acrossJan 07 02:29
tessierrnb: How do people cache that then?Jan 07 02:30
rnbtessier: cache what?Jan 07 02:30
schestowitztessier: in MediaWiki it just returns the cahce version, so I append ?dlfjklfkldsnf to get something currentJan 07 02:30
tessierrnb: How do they cache the pages if each one is unique?Jan 07 02:31
tessierAnd not accidentally give a page generated for one user to another user?Jan 07 02:31
rnbtessier: oh, well, each one isnt unique unless the session ID is appended in a request string on every URI on the siteJan 07 02:32
rnbtessier: and i dont think WP does thatJan 07 02:32
rnbtessier: let me see, i have a WP installed somewhereJan 07 02:32
tessierrnb: Right but then the page with custom content on it for that user gets cached and when someone requests the same url they get the previous user's page.Jan 07 02:32
tessierAppending request strings to URIs is nast and not very ReSTful.Jan 07 02:33
tessiernastyJan 07 02:33
schestowitztessier: here's the thing:Jan 07 02:34
schestowitzI found workaroundsJan 07 02:34
schestowitzBasically, when I'm logged on, pages with the same URL may get cachedJan 07 02:34
schestowitzIn which case, it may not serve unique pages for the same URLJan 07 02:35
rnbtessier: oh well, i dont know how WP's cache works specificallyJan 07 02:36
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rnbtessier: but APC or something will cache opcodes that dont change per userJan 07 02:38
rnbtessier: i figure WP only caches static contentJan 07 02:38
rnbtessier: not, like, the menu that includes login infoJan 07 02:39
tessierThe wp supercache module is designed to turn dynamically generated pages like a wiki into static contentJan 07 02:40
tessierSo the db doesn't have to be hit for every page renderingJan 07 02:40
tessierThat is the whole point of caching.Jan 07 02:41
tessierCaching jpg an gif etc buys relatively little.Jan 07 02:41
tessierMySQL on boycottnovell.com often consumes two whole 200% cpu timeJan 07 02:41
tessierRight now I am looking at top and seeing it at 142%Jan 07 02:42
tessierNot a big deal for me but it makes the site vulnerable to attack when it is easily run out of cpu.Jan 07 02:42
schestowitztessier: supercache has several modesJan 07 02:52
schestowitzIn the current mode, it checks if the pages is already cached. If so, it gets servedJan 07 02:52
schestowitzBut nothing is made permanentJan 07 02:52
tessierWhat do you mean by permanent?Jan 07 02:55
tessierAnd what are the other modes?Jan 07 02:55
jose_Xtessier, i think that varnish looks in the cache whenever the config logic reaches "lookup". If cookies come in, then the variable req.http.cookie in the config file will be the string of cookies and it will not cache.. unless you intercept before the check is made and clear out req.http.cookie.Jan 07 03:07
jose_Xso the trick is to clear req.http.cookie most of the time (to cache) but leave it in place when necessary (eg, to comment, perhaps).Jan 07 03:08
jose_Xthe way varnish was set up earlier, login in to wordpress leaves the proper cookie in your browser ready to be sent to the server when requested (eg, by javascript). ie, the cookie info for users is always available in the browser (until expire or deleted).Jan 07 03:10
jose_Xrnb, what i am saying is what i think but have not tested. i believe wordpress uses the php set cookie functions (this is what the docs said and the code comments though i stopped reading).Jan 07 03:11
jose_Xtessier, so the varnish config file can check for a marker (a cookie named "whatever-you-want-as-marker-name") on every request.Jan 07 03:11
jose_Xinstead of automatically unsetting the cookie string, it can leave it when it finds the marker cookie in the setJan 07 03:12
DaemonFChttp://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/06/oregon.unruly.passenger/Jan 07 03:12
phIRCe-localTitle: Fighter jets escort plane to  after passenger becomes unruly - CNN.com .::. Size~: 47.45 KBJan 07 03:12
jose_Xthis check can be done in vcl language (in config file) with something that looks like a regular expression checkJan 07 03:12
jose_Xso we cache except when we find this marker.Jan 07 03:13
jose_Xthe marker cookie will be set by javascript Jan 07 03:13
jose_Xjavascript will also remove the marker cookieJan 07 03:13
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Under Fire: Open Source Software Thematic Group Complains About EIFv2 Subversion http://ur1.ca/j7deJan 07 03:13
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft Under Fire: Open Source Software Thematic Group Complains About EIFv2 Subversion, NHS Software Supplier Under Criminal Investigation | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 101.67 KBJan 07 03:13
jose_Xbasically when any page loads javascript removes that markerJan 07 03:13
DaemonFConly took them 8 years to think of chasing planes that might have been hijacked with fighter jetsJan 07 03:14
DaemonFCthat's the governmentJan 07 03:14
jose_Xthen if the user is logging in, javascript sets the marker right before the form values get shipped out (javascript onclick)Jan 07 03:14
rnbtessier: yeah, thats what i meant by 'caching static content'Jan 07 03:15
rnbtessier: because you can cache other things, too, like opcodes, compiled templates, etcJan 07 03:15
jose_Xthe returned page after login has the cookie values necessary and because of the marker, this returned page will have the comment section present.Jan 07 03:15
rnbjose_X: yeah, WP might use the setcookie thingJan 07 03:16
jose_Xso when this page returns, javascript removes the marker cookie but if the user submits a comment then the marker then gets added again and that comment will be passed through (just like the login info) by varnishJan 07 03:16
rnbjose_X: in which case what i said about the session cookie for users who arent logged in isnt entirely validJan 07 03:16
rnbor, valid at all, for that matterJan 07 03:17
jose_Xrnb, http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_set_auth_cookieJan 07 03:17
phIRCe-localTitle: Function Reference/wp set auth cookie « WordPress Codex .::. Size~: 10.31 KBJan 07 03:17
rnbjose_X: mm, there you goJan 07 03:18
jose_Xhttp://phpxref.ftwr.co.uk/wordpress/nav.html?wp-includes/pluggable.php.source.htmlJan 07 03:18
phIRCe-localTitle: WordPress, bbPress, GlotPress and BackPress phpxref .::. Size~: 1.47 KBJan 07 03:18
rnbsorry, i'm tired and confusedJan 07 03:18
rnbi woke up today at 0030Jan 07 03:18
rnband i've been awake since thenJan 07 03:18
jose_Xalso this one but its deprecated http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_setcookieJan 07 03:18
phIRCe-localTitle: Function Reference/wp setcookie « WordPress Codex .::. Size~: 11.27 KBJan 07 03:19
rnb... final days of a big project ...Jan 07 03:19
jose_Xrnb, i'm not sure how all of this works, but from what i can follow wp uses the php functions to manage users via cookies.. whether it uses one function or otherJan 07 03:20
rnbi'm gonna check it outJan 07 03:20
jose_Xtessier, so to recap.Jan 07 03:21
DaemonFCit's always hard to tell what's deprecated when everything that is winds up staying in a repository somewhere for yearsJan 07 03:21
jose_Xif we add a marker cookie in some requests, varnish can test for this and cache except in these cases.Jan 07 03:22
DaemonFCI can't even count the number of dead-end programs I've seen in Ubuntu's repositoryJan 07 03:22
jose_Xto set the marker cookie as little as possible, we employ a javascript function that always removes it upon page loadJan 07 03:22
DaemonFCIf it's still being developed in any meaningful way, it's too new for DebianJan 07 03:22
DaemonFC:DJan 07 03:22
jose_XMeanwhile, two other javascript functions set the marker right before a request to the server.Jan 07 03:23
jose_Xthese two functions only set it under very special circumstances.Jan 07 03:23
jose_X1- on the login page when submitting the login infoJan 07 03:23
jose_X2- from a comment submission clickJan 07 03:23
jose_Xeach of these submit buttons can call javascript onclick before they take effect (I think, but can't remember)Jan 07 03:24
rnbWP appears to set a cookie any time you hit the site and it doesnt have a cookie for youJan 07 03:25
rnbsimilar to what i was saying with php's session startJan 07 03:25
rnbName: __utmaJan 07 03:25
rnbName: __utmbJan 07 03:25
rnbName: __utmcJan 07 03:25
rnbName: __utmzJan 07 03:26
rnbthere we go; now we knowJan 07 03:26
jose_Xtessier, the trick here is that after the login, with marker set, varnish passes through so that wp gets the cookies and sends the page with the comments input box present.Jan 07 03:26
jose_Xalong with the comment box, javascript is set up so that if a comment is sent, the marker will be set.Jan 07 03:26
jose_Xalso, i just realized that instead of javascript always removing marker cookie on page load..Jan 07 03:27
jose_Xit would be best to have varnish remove it once it finds it (right before passing through). This way wp doesn't get a cookie it doesn't understand.Jan 07 03:27
jose_Xno matter when the marker cookie is removed, at least for that one request varnish will respect the pass-through marker so that the bn page wp sends will have comments enabled.Jan 07 03:28
jose_Xi don't know if what i said would work or makes sense, but there you go.Jan 07 03:28
DaemonFChttp://www.geico.com/public/audio/somebodyswatchingme.mp3Jan 07 03:29
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting application/x-notknow type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 03:29
DaemonFChehJan 07 03:29
jose_X[it makes sense to me, but if i'm missing something or if i wasn't clear, then it may not make sense to anyone else.]Jan 07 03:29
rnbhave any of you all seen the movie "In the Loop"? it came out this yearJan 07 03:29
jose_Xrnb, yeah, you might have been right about that... there are a lot of cookies setJan 07 03:29
rnbit's hilariousJan 07 03:29
rnbjose_X: yeah but it doesnt use that php session cookie like i was saying, so YOU were right about thatJan 07 03:30
jose_XDaemonFC, deprecation is great. if people follow it it provides transition so that old and new worksJan 07 03:30
rnbanyway, you can watch "In the Loop" here -> http://www.movshare.net/136893/video/bn8l4gixnj9s7Jan 07 03:30
phIRCe-localTitle: Watch www.iwannadownload.com In The Loop online | MovShare - Reliable video hosting .::. Size~: 14.63 KBJan 07 03:31
DaemonFCwho the hell encoded this?Jan 07 03:31
rnbYAH, OK, FUCKETY-BYE!Jan 07 03:31
DaemonFC160k CBRJan 07 03:31
DaemonFCthat's a no-noJan 07 03:31
DaemonFCwonder if I can find it as FLACJan 07 03:31
rnbhey, i'm new hereJan 07 03:34
rnbi'm calling for a irl location check, hook me upJan 07 03:34
rnb<- san francisco 75% of the time, sao paulo 25% of the timeJan 07 03:35
rnbtrying to make that 50/50 this yearJan 07 03:35
schestowitz[02:55] <tessier> And what are the other modes?Jan 07 03:38
rnbc'mahhn .. schestowitz: where do you live?Jan 07 03:38
schestowitzThere is something more complicated that I tried to enable before without success. So I enabled almost everything there, but there is room for improvement perhapsJan 07 03:38
jose_Xactually tessier, i was thinking, perhaps javascript should still remove the marker cookie at load time because the rewrite that varnish would do does not remove the cookie from the client.. also, the rewrite by varnish should still be done i think to avoid problems with wp getting that alien cookie.Jan 07 03:38
jose_Xif you figure out what i am talking about then maybe this will make some senseJan 07 03:39
schestowitzrnb: ManchesterJan 07 03:39
schestowitz> Roy,Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> The following ad was at the top of my Yahoo Mail page, did a PDF printJan 07 03:41
schestowitz> of the image ("What Terrifies Bill Gates.pdf")Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> After clicking the link, is the page I saw in PDF #2.  It is about cloudJan 07 03:41
schestowitz> computing.Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> As I don't know this company, I simply did not comply with my homeJan 07 03:41
schestowitz> address for application.Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> Jan 07 03:41
schestowitz> I must admit that not all people like Bill Gates and Microsoft, but IJan 07 03:41
schestowitz> would never expect to see that in Yahoo!Jan 07 03:41
schestowitzYes, that is funny indeed!Jan 07 03:41
rnbjose_X: where do you live?Jan 07 03:41
jose_Xusa floridaJan 07 03:41
jose_Xi'll be back in a bit ..to log out.Jan 07 03:45
rnbmm, florida.. my sister was living thereJan 07 03:48
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal")Jan 07 03:51
DaemonFCRon Paul tried quoting Gandhi, "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win."Jan 07 03:52
DaemonFCHe must not realize the irony that in his case it's more like "First they ignore you, then they ignore you, then they ignore you some more....."Jan 07 03:53
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] CIO Prediction: #Novell to be Acquired in 6 Months http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/06/cio-prediction-novell-hovsepian/Jan 07 03:54
phIRCe-localTitle: CIO Prediction: Novell to be Acquired in 6 Months | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 93.24 KBJan 07 03:54
schestowitzDaemonFC: I'm sure you're sure your Obama will bring changeJan 07 03:55
schestowitzChange(R)Jan 07 03:55
DaemonFCpeople only pay attention to the guy that sells big religion or gives out welfare checksJan 07 03:56
DaemonFCseems like that's all you have to do to be electable Jan 07 03:57
DaemonFCbesides, telling the big businesses off is the surest way to have 1% the campaign funds available to your opponentsJan 07 03:58
rnbthis first year has not been very good for obama's claim that he's bringing changeJan 07 04:01
rnbespecially on foreign policyJan 07 04:01
*rnb lives in a one-party sham republicJan 07 04:01
Diablo-D3I dont blame Obama for thatJan 07 04:05
Diablo-D3I blame Congress.Jan 07 04:05
jose_Xfor reference (tessier) this link https://weblion.psu.edu/trac/weblion/wiki/VarnishConfigs shows an example of what looks like regexp search on the req.http.Cookie string (not sure if this is same as req.http.cookie)Jan 07 04:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 200 Ok .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 04:05
Diablo-D3Obama asked for a simple bill to fix healthcareJan 07 04:06
Diablo-D3Congress handed him a 1500 sham of a document in return.Jan 07 04:06
jose_Xsee the end of the vcl_recv subroutine where the check leads to "pass" or else you fall through and "lookup"Jan 07 04:06
jose_Xalso, here is an example of playing around with the cookie strings in javascript http://techpatterns.com/downloads/javascript_cookies.phpJan 07 04:07
phIRCe-localTitle: Javascript Cookie Script: Get Cookie, Set Cookie, Delete Cookie Functions .::. Size~: 16.77 KBJan 07 04:07
DaemonFCDiablo-D3: The senate bill was closer to 2,000 pagesJan 07 04:08
DaemonFCit's longer than War and PeaceJan 07 04:08
rnbDaemonFC: it isnt one person in particular who is to blame for the one-party state we live inJan 07 04:08
jose_Xto add the javascript you'd need to bypass the web interface of wordpress i think and for various reasons i don't think that will happen with bn (unless a plugin to make that failsafe and consistent exists)Jan 07 04:09
rnbDaemonFC: it's been like this for some timeJan 07 04:09
DaemonFCWar and Peace is only 1,472 pagesJan 07 04:09
DaemonFCmuch shorter than either version of the "healthcare" billJan 07 04:09
DaemonFCand which congressperson or senator has read the whole thing?Jan 07 04:10
DaemonFCand how much pork is it full of?Jan 07 04:10
DaemonFChow much corporate welfare?Jan 07 04:10
rnbagreedJan 07 04:10
jose_XDaemonFC, i think you are talking about the supersized value war and peaceJan 07 04:11
jose_Xpaperback is over 4,000,000 pagesJan 07 04:11
jose_X:-)Jan 07 04:11
DaemonFCI don't think a single person knew what they were voting for exactlyJan 07 04:11
rnbwell, they have interns and assistants who read them and then brief themJan 07 04:11
*jose_X has quit ("Leaving")Jan 07 04:12
DaemonFCand it exempts a few states from paying for their share of Medicaid just because their senators threatened not to vote for the bill otherwiseJan 07 04:12
rnbbut, whether they vote for it or not is all part of a complicated power gameJan 07 04:12
DaemonFCthe rest of the country has to pick up the tabJan 07 04:12
rnbyes, it does!Jan 07 04:12
rnbclassicJan 07 04:12
rnbi want my free health careJan 07 04:12
rnband i want it right fkn now.Jan 07 04:12
rnbthat's all i care about ... when do i get it?Jan 07 04:13
DaemonFCLouisiana is being paid like $3 million in subsidies for parts of Medicaid that the state should pay forJan 07 04:13
DaemonFCout of Federal moneyJan 07 04:13
DaemonFC:)Jan 07 04:13
rnbbut, unfortunately, i think the answer is as soon as my permanent residency in another country comes throughJan 07 04:13
rnbwell, louisiana hasnt had money for a long, long timeJan 07 04:14
DaemonFCit would be nice if someone demanded those provisions stripped before it went back for the simple majority voteJan 07 04:14
DaemonFCit's not right that every American should be paying for the STATE portion of Louisiana's Medicaid expensesJan 07 04:15
rnbbut they need those votesJan 07 04:15
DaemonFCeveryone in every other state is being cheatedJan 07 04:15
rnbthe whole damn bill cheats usJan 07 04:15
DaemonFCNevada got the same dealJan 07 04:15
rnbit went from public option -> mandatory, private non-optionJan 07 04:16
rnband if they think i'm going to buy private health insurance just because it's the law to do so, they are sadly mistakenJan 07 04:16
DaemonFCwell, they'll just steal it right back out of your paycheck in finesJan 07 04:17
DaemonFCso there's no way out of itJan 07 04:17
rnbcurrently, my free health care is that i just dont pay my billsJan 07 04:17
DaemonFCsame hereJan 07 04:17
DaemonFCI owe $5,000 in medical billsJan 07 04:17
rnbi owe roughly twice thatJan 07 04:17
DaemonFCfor a rip to the ER where they gave me an IV of anti-seizure medication and sent me home with bruises in my arms that went right down to the boneJan 07 04:18
DaemonFCthose fuckers think I'm paying them a penny, they can think againJan 07 04:18
rnbyeah, i was gonna say, you don't get much for $5kJan 07 04:18
rnbanyhow, i'm getting the hell out of this countryJan 07 04:18
DaemonFCthat happened in September and there are still a couple positions I can't move my arms to that I could beforeJan 07 04:19
DaemonFCmainly it doesn't bother me unless I have to scratch the middle of my backJan 07 04:19
rnbDaemonFC: where do you live?Jan 07 04:19
DaemonFCso I've taken to rubbing up against the wall instead :PJan 07 04:19
DaemonFCIndianaJan 07 04:19
rnboh, yeah? i'm originally from ohioJan 07 04:20
rnbwhich, you know, is right next door to youJan 07 04:20
DaemonFCabout 30 miles to the eastJan 07 04:20
DaemonFCyeah, before the drinking age went up to 21 everywhere, my mom said that her and all her friends drove to Ohio every weekend cause the drinking age was 18 thereJan 07 04:21
rnboh, that must have been before my timeJan 07 04:21
DaemonFCthe Feds got all the states to raise it by threatening them with withholding their "highway grants"Jan 07 04:21
rnbwhen i was a teenager, we would go and spend a weekend in canada because their drinking age is 18Jan 07 04:22
rnbironically, thats also where you can go to get some free health careJan 07 04:22
DaemonFCyeah, the Feds tax the states then offer to return some of it if the state does what the feds tell them toJan 07 04:22
DaemonFCnice racket huh?Jan 07 04:22
rnbsure, thats been going on foreverJan 07 04:22
DaemonFCI'd just swipe it from my step dadJan 07 04:22
DaemonFChe was such an alcoholic, he never knew if there was a 6 pack missingJan 07 04:23
rnbdo you live in ft. wayne?Jan 07 04:23
DaemonFClolJan 07 04:23
*Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 04:23
DaemonFCnear Ft WayneJan 07 04:23
rnbspeaking of canadians... here's one nowJan 07 04:23
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #China Given Another Reason to Abandon Proprietary Software — $2,200,000,000 #Lawsuit http://ur1.ca/j7i6Jan 07 04:23
phIRCe-localTitle: China Given Another Reason to Abandon Proprietary Software  $2,200,000,000 Lawsuit | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 95.1 KBJan 07 04:23
rnbi'm prejudiced against canadiansJan 07 04:23
DaemonFCbecause some of them speak French?Jan 07 04:24
DaemonFCno reason to hate the rest of themJan 07 04:24
Ender2070Je parles anglais....Jan 07 04:24
DaemonFCI hate youJan 07 04:24
DaemonFCthere :PJan 07 04:24
rnboh, i like the quebecoisJan 07 04:24
rnbbut they arent canadiansJan 07 04:24
Ender2070i just about died laughing after seeing this thingJan 07 04:25
Ender2070http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/518539Jan 07 04:25
phIRCe-localTitle: OSS Lefty Sound Board .::. Size~: 67.23 KBJan 07 04:25
DaemonFCyeah, they're like the Palestinians of Canada, only they don't blow people upJan 07 04:25
DaemonFCI guessJan 07 04:25
DaemonFCjust annoying as fuckJan 07 04:25
rnbthey dont blow people up ... anymoreJan 07 04:25
rnbthey used toJan 07 04:25
DaemonFCit's hard to picture Canadians being particularly violentJan 07 04:26
DaemonFCit's like Disney World for American bank robbersJan 07 04:26
DaemonFC:DJan 07 04:26
DaemonFCthere was some American guy that went up there armed with a shotgunJan 07 04:26
rnbwell they have a long history of violence against the indigenous populationJan 07 04:26
DaemonFCand robbed 52 Canadian banks before they caught himJan 07 04:27
DaemonFCThat would _not_ happen hereJan 07 04:27
rnbthats not a bad ideaJan 07 04:27
rnboh i dont know about thatJan 07 04:27
DaemonFCyou _might_ knock over one or two before they catch youJan 07 04:27
rnbpeople get away with bank robberies all the time but they kind of keep that hush-hushJan 07 04:27
rnboh, no wayJan 07 04:27
rnbyou can go on lengthy bank robbery sprees hereJan 07 04:27
DaemonFCand by catch, I mean the coroner doesn't bother trying to count the number of bullets the police shot you withJan 07 04:28
rnbthe trend these days is pharmacy robberiesJan 07 04:28
rnbthere was a pharmacy robbery duo in ohio recently and they hit something like 30 of them before one of them got caughtJan 07 04:28
DaemonFCyou don't fuck with the big money people, you'll end up dead for itJan 07 04:28
DaemonFCand the police are basically their assassination squadsJan 07 04:29
rnbhttp://blogs.suburbanchicagonews.com/beaconblog/2008/07/more_on_fbi_bank_robbery_stati.htmlJan 07 04:30
DaemonFCyou're more likely to get shot for robbing a bank than anything else, other than shooting at the police of courseJan 07 04:30
phIRCe-localTitle: More on FBI bank robbery statistics - Beacon Blog .::. Size~: 42.66 KBJan 07 04:30
DaemonFCCasinos don't even bother waiting for the cops, they have their own security thats armed to the teeth that will kill you just to retrieve the moneyJan 07 04:30
DaemonFCLas Vegas casino security even has AR-15sJan 07 04:31
schestowitzEnder2070: didn't yo momma teach you not to make fun of retards?Jan 07 04:34
rnbDaemonFC: are you born/raised in indiana?Jan 07 04:41
DaemonFCyeahJan 07 04:42
rnbis the job market decimated there?Jan 07 04:43
rnbwhere i grew up in ohio, it's the worst it has been in a long timeJan 07 04:43
rnbwhich is pretty hard to achieve because it's been terrible for decadesJan 07 04:43
DaemonFCrnb: It's not the best I've ever seen it, but it's reboundingJan 07 04:43
DaemonFCmost of the jobs lost in this area have been replaced with better paying onesJan 07 04:44
DaemonFCit worked out for the best I supposeJan 07 04:44
rnbhttp://www.journalgazette.net/article/20091218/BIZ/912189970/1031/BIZJan 07 04:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Indiana jobless rate holds steady | The Journal Gazette, Fort Wayne, Ind. .::. Size~: 30.94 KBJan 07 04:45
rnbbetter-paying ones? in what industry?Jan 07 04:45
DaemonFCMichigan is losing a LOT of auto manufacturing, which is being consolidated hereJan 07 04:46
DaemonFCvarious light industrial stuff tooJan 07 04:46
rnbi seeJan 07 04:46
DaemonFCMichigan lost at least 5,000 jobs from GM that I know ofJan 07 04:46
DaemonFCenough of the work came here to add about 1,200 jobs in Ft WayneJan 07 04:47
DaemonFCtheir suppliers are doing the same thingJan 07 04:47
rnbyeah.. detroit competes with cleveland every year for the poorest metropolitan area in the usJan 07 04:47
DaemonFCHayes Lemmerz (makes wheel rims and stuff) fired 500 people in Michigan, brought 100 jobs hereJan 07 04:47
rnbit's hard to imagine that both of those cities used to be boom citiesJan 07 04:47
DaemonFCsome Canadian company making grills just opened up an idle factory here that's been empty for a few yearsJan 07 04:48
DaemonFC300 jobs there starting at $11 an hourJan 07 04:48
rnbmm, $11/hr isnt bad for that areaJan 07 04:48
DaemonFCMarion has gotten 200 GM jobs out of however many body parts workers GM fired in MichiganJan 07 04:49
DaemonFCrnb: The jobs in the factory from the place that was there before started at around $9 an hourJan 07 04:49
DaemonFCso $2 an hour raise for everyone that works there nowJan 07 04:50
rnbyeah, in canton/akron, the layoffs at republic/ltv steel & timken have been devastatingJan 07 04:50
rnbmy dad worked at republic steel for 34 years and they are trying to sell their houseJan 07 04:50
rnbbut there are something like 4,000 other houses in the similar price range up for sale right now in the same areaJan 07 04:50
DaemonFCthe state has been basically offering them 10-20 year tax exempt status, ubsidiesJan 07 04:50
rnbas all of those laid-off or early-retirement workers try to fleeJan 07 04:51
DaemonFCanything that gets them here instead of another stateJan 07 04:51
DaemonFCyeah, lots of ghost towns sprung up over the last 2 years in a lot of placesJan 07 04:51
rnbohio has some military manufacturing going on so that helps, given the outrageous amount of money being spent on illegal warfareJan 07 04:52
DaemonFCthe F-22 Raptor contracts being canceledJan 07 04:52
DaemonFCnobody wanted them but Congress tried funding them anyway cause of all their constituents working to build themJan 07 04:52
DaemonFCit was pork in so many districts that they voted to build a fighter jet we don't even needJan 07 04:53
rnbwhen i was younger, i worked at a factory in dayton that made one particular type of manufacturing hardware used in fighter jetsJan 07 04:53
DaemonFCit only failed to pass cause of a few votesJan 07 04:53
cubezzzI was in Dayton once, at NCRJan 07 04:54
rnbwell, nafta was the final nail in the coffin for the ohio steel & rubber industryJan 07 04:55
DaemonFCrnb: Someone from California was making fun of IndianaJan 07 04:55
DaemonFCI told him I got a check for my tax refund that wasn't made payable to "IOU"Jan 07 04:55
DaemonFC:PJan 07 04:55
rnbi mean, the unions were mostly dead before that but nafta is what buried the graveJan 07 04:55
rnbeh, californians are assholesJan 07 04:55
rnbi really dont like living hereJan 07 04:56
rnbi wish the dot-com industry was headquartered someone elseJan 07 04:56
rnbso i wouldnt be trapped hereJan 07 04:56
DaemonFCwhen the levees break and their drinking water for half the state turns into salt water.....Jan 07 04:56
DaemonFCI'll be watching their evacuation while eating my popcornJan 07 04:56
rnbwe can also pray for the earthquake which sinks californiaJan 07 04:56
rnbdo you work at a tech job there?Jan 07 04:57
DaemonFCCalifornia is like "We won't execute a child murderer, but people that have the gay can't marry"Jan 07 04:58
DaemonFCit's the biggest group of people you've ever said "WTF!?" overJan 07 04:58
rnbi can always tell a native californianJan 07 04:58
rnbthey are pretentious and superficial and are too chicken-shit to tell you to your face what they thinkJan 07 04:58
DaemonFCall about appearanceJan 07 04:59
rnbunlike the steel belt and east of there, where everyone tells you exactly what they think, no matter how offensiveJan 07 04:59
DaemonFCthe cost of living is so high, you can make $20 an hour stocking groceries at the supermarketJan 07 04:59
DaemonFCit's insaneJan 07 04:59
rnbyeah, cost of living is nutsJan 07 04:59
rnbfireman have to make 6-figure salaries hereJan 07 05:00
rnb*firemenJan 07 05:00
DaemonFCI heard one guy say he made like $20-something an hour to stock groceriesJan 07 05:00
rnbi believe itJan 07 05:01
DaemonFCthat's more than a nurse starts out at hereJan 07 05:01
DaemonFCbut if you're paying $1,200 in rent for the same apartment that costs $450 hereJan 07 05:02
rnbthe minimum wage here is still too low, thoughJan 07 05:02
DaemonFC$250 in groceries would be like $100 hereJan 07 05:02
rnb$1200 in rent!Jan 07 05:02
rnbi wish!Jan 07 05:02
rnbit's hard to find a place in SF that is under $2k/moJan 07 05:02
DaemonFChmmmJan 07 05:03
DaemonFCthat's crazyJan 07 05:03
rnbyes indeedJan 07 05:03
rnbthat's in the city, thoughJan 07 05:03
rnbthere are cheaper places in the suburbs but the subway runs to those areasJan 07 05:03
rnbso you can live in daly city or something and pay ~ $1100 - $1800/moJan 07 05:04
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DaemonFCand only an hour to get to work for the trouble?Jan 07 05:04
rnbmy rent every year is more than my parents make for the yearJan 07 05:04
rnbwell, yeah.. Jan 07 05:04
DaemonFCmeh, I wouldn't put up with thatJan 07 05:05
rnbactually, BART is pretty good.. daly city is only about 25-30 mins from downtownJan 07 05:05
rnbyeah but the income potential is much higher than in the midwestJan 07 05:05
rnbso, i think you end up doing better out hereJan 07 05:05
DaemonFCit's not helping you if you spend it all on cost of livingJan 07 05:06
rnbif you really try, that isJan 07 05:06
rnbbut i'm saying the difference between income and cost of living is such that you end up making more money living hereJan 07 05:06
rnband, potentially, a LOT more money if you get the right opportunityJan 07 05:07
DaemonFCnot worth living in a tinderboxJan 07 05:07
rnbhey, believe me, i'm ready to get the hell out of hereJan 07 05:07
rnbthis year my goal is to live here less and lessJan 07 05:08
rnbuntil i dont live here at all and i just come back now and then for businessJan 07 05:08
DaemonFCit's like FloridaJan 07 05:09
DaemonFC"Hey honey, there's an alligator on the car and another hurricane is coming!!! Let's stay!"Jan 07 05:09
rnbthat massive, devastating earthquake is SO overdue nowJan 07 05:10
DaemonFCI moved there and it lasted about a monthJan 07 05:10
rnbany day now ... Jan 07 05:10
rnbflorida? or CA?Jan 07 05:10
DaemonFCFloridaJan 07 05:10
rnbuff, my sister moved to floridaJan 07 05:10
rnbwhy florida?Jan 07 05:10
rnbi advised her against itJan 07 05:10
DaemonFCcause a friend said to move out there and I'd love itJan 07 05:11
rnbhaha, thats why she did it, tooJan 07 05:11
DaemonFCbad mistakeJan 07 05:11
rnbwhat part of fl?Jan 07 05:11
DaemonFCTampaJan 07 05:12
DaemonFCbad traffic and CubansJan 07 05:12
rnbuff, yeah, my sister lived near there Jan 07 05:12
rnbin a city called Orange, i think?Jan 07 05:12
rnbor Orange CityJan 07 05:12
rnbor somethingJan 07 05:12
DaemonFCyou have to remember not to leave your car windows cracked, not even a littleJan 07 05:12
rnbobnoxious, ultra right-wing cubansJan 07 05:12
DaemonFCyou may wake up and find Cubans living in itJan 07 05:12
DaemonFCthey reset all the controls and everything, it's horrible :DJan 07 05:13
rnbor a family of rednecks who make their kids sell the meth they makeJan 07 05:13
DaemonFCFlorida isn't that bad on MethJan 07 05:13
DaemonFCIndiana is the worstJan 07 05:13
rnbbut it is on rednecksJan 07 05:13
DaemonFCfollowed by MissouriJan 07 05:13
rnblots of meth in ohio, tooJan 07 05:14
DaemonFCmeth is cheap to make and Walmart has all the ingredientsJan 07 05:14
DaemonFCwho do you think will have it?Jan 07 05:14
rnbyepJan 07 05:14
rnbmeth is pretty big in the dot-com world, tooJan 07 05:14
rnbbut they get high-quality methJan 07 05:14
rnbthe really pink glassJan 07 05:14
DaemonFCmy former stepdad's family are all in prison for methJan 07 05:14
DaemonFCone lit a cigarette and ignited all the ingredientsJan 07 05:15
DaemonFCblew up his carJan 07 05:15
DaemonFC:DJan 07 05:15
rnbi know 3 or 4 old friends from ohio in prison for meth and/or crackJan 07 05:15
DaemonFChe jumped out, on fire, and rolled down the streetJan 07 05:15
DaemonFChis car crashed into a street lightJan 07 05:16
rnbniceJan 07 05:16
DaemonFCfunniest damned thing I ever heardJan 07 05:16
rnbthats why people take meth... because you can really get things done on it!Jan 07 05:16
DaemonFC"Lets light a cigarette in a car full of 20 things that can blow up!"Jan 07 05:16
rnblet organizing all the matchsticks in your house 10 different waysJan 07 05:16
DaemonFCIt's like even worse than those people that smoke in a fireworks factoryJan 07 05:17
Omar87..Jan 07 05:17
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DaemonFCmeth is one of those things that you have to be suicidal to takeJan 07 05:17
Omar87hello everyone.Jan 07 05:18
rnbsigh.. i'm so sick of the USJan 07 05:18
DaemonFCrnb: Have you seen The Evil Dead?Jan 07 05:18
rnbyeahJan 07 05:18
DaemonFCthat's what a meth user looks like at 6 monthsJan 07 05:18
rnbhaha, yesJan 07 05:18
rnband you'd think that they would be up and witty and so onJan 07 05:19
rnbbut it eventually has the opposite effectJan 07 05:19
DaemonFCno, it just wires themJan 07 05:19
rnband meth-heads are the most braindead zombies you've ever seenJan 07 05:19
Omar87rnb: wow, it seems to me that you're trying to break the record in the number messages..Jan 07 05:19
rnbeven when they're iredJan 07 05:19
rnb*wiredJan 07 05:19
DaemonFCyou'd have to be stupid to take it, periodJan 07 05:19
DaemonFCthey're wired and stupidJan 07 05:19
rnbi've taken itJan 07 05:19
DaemonFCCOPS anyone? :)Jan 07 05:19
rnbehJan 07 05:19
rnblike i said, it's pretty popular in the dot-com scene hereJan 07 05:20
DaemonFCI've used drugsJan 07 05:20
DaemonFCI would not touch methJan 07 05:20
rnbmeth is the new coke since all the coke in san francisco is terrible qualityJan 07 05:20
DaemonFCso bad they'd use meth?Jan 07 05:21
DaemonFCthat's pretty bad alrightJan 07 05:21
rnbwell it also fits in with the insane schedules that come with being a dot-com shitworkerJan 07 05:22
DaemonFCanything that makes you not sleep for 3 weeks sounds totally wrong for meJan 07 05:22
rnbupper management takes cokeJan 07 05:22
rnbprogrammers take methJan 07 05:22
rnbOmar87: where do you live?Jan 07 05:22
DaemonFCupper management takes coke cause they can afford it and because they hate themselves for being empty suitsJan 07 05:23
DaemonFC:DJan 07 05:23
DaemonFCthey take it out on you when they come down from the highJan 07 05:23
Omar87rnb: does it matter?Jan 07 05:23
rnbOmar87: YES.Jan 07 05:23
Omar87rnb: how so?Jan 07 05:23
DaemonFCOmar87: Because he's targeting you with a Tomahawk cruise missileJan 07 05:24
rnbdoes that really matter?Jan 07 05:24
rnbit just ISJan 07 05:24
DaemonFCrnb is a CIA agentJan 07 05:24
Omar87DaemonFC: okJan 07 05:25
rnbOmar87: well?!Jan 07 05:26
rnbOmar87: oh, NYC?Jan 07 05:27
rnbone nice thing about SF is the legalized marijuanaJan 07 05:28
rnbwell, not entirely legalized, but close enoughJan 07 05:29
DaemonFCI'm never living in a city with more than 100,000 or so people againJan 07 05:29
DaemonFCI'd be perfectly happy to live somewhere an hour away from the next personJan 07 05:30
rnbuff, i'm addicted to big citiesJan 07 05:31
rnbsao paulo has 19 million peopleJan 07 05:32
rnbits insaneJan 07 05:32
rnbi love itJan 07 05:32
rnbthere's a part of downtown sao paulo which is just blocks and blocks of weird little computer storesJan 07 05:32
rnbwhere you can buy all kinds of hardware and software that is smuggled/pirated via paraguay from chinaJan 07 05:33
DaemonFCI pretty much have to get every part I need shipped hereJan 07 05:33
DaemonFCthere's one little ripoff store full of MSCEs on the other side of townJan 07 05:33
rnbyeah, see? they have everything you could ever want in big citiesJan 07 05:33
DaemonFCcharge you double for anythingJan 07 05:33
rnbugh, i know that type of store from ohioJan 07 05:33
Omar87rnb: noJan 07 05:34
DaemonFCthey'll refuse to even do anything with the PC if it doesn't have Windows on itJan 07 05:34
DaemonFCeven hardwareJan 07 05:34
rnbfiguresJan 07 05:35
DaemonFCthe only reason I even went in there is because I messed up the BIOS (don't ask) and needed them to flash itJan 07 05:35
rnbOmar87: well, WHERE then? i'm dying of suspenseJan 07 05:35
rnbah shit, i need to sleep soonJan 07 05:36
rnbi gotta get up at like 4AMJan 07 05:36
Omar87rnb: apparently, I live on Earth. :)Jan 07 05:36
DaemonFCwell, they would have charged $65 to flash it and I could have a new motherboard (a better one) for $100Jan 07 05:36
DaemonFCso I just replaced the boardJan 07 05:36
rnbOmar87 - :(Jan 07 05:36
rnbOmar87: c'mon, share with the groupJan 07 05:36
DaemonFCrnb: I didn't realize just how bad the Intel motherboards were when I bought that systemJan 07 05:37
DaemonFCthe board supported a 6-bit Core 2 Duo but couldn't actually address more than 4 GB of RAM Jan 07 05:38
DaemonFC*64-bitJan 07 05:38
rnbhehJan 07 05:38
rnbit can be hard to find a good motherboardJan 07 05:38
rnbi always just get recommendations from people who have real-life tested them, usually with fbsdJan 07 05:39
DaemonFCIntel motherboards have not impressed meJan 07 05:39
rnbwell, i gotta goJan 07 05:39
DaemonFCnightJan 07 05:39
rnbsomebody give me a website to look at that i've never heard of before but you really likeJan 07 05:39
DaemonFCor take some meth and stay up for 6 weeks and talkJan 07 05:39
DaemonFC:DJan 07 05:39
DaemonFCfailblog.org?Jan 07 05:40
DaemonFC:PJan 07 05:40
rnbthanks!Jan 07 05:41
rnbDaemonFC: heh, pretty funnyJan 07 05:44
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-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] denting from office for the first time :-)Jan 07 08:28
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Omar87schestowitz: pingJan 07 10:06
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ender2070lolJan 07 10:19
schestowitzOmar87: ACKJan 07 10:23
ender2070LOLJan 07 10:28
schestowitzWhat's funny?Jan 07 10:32
schestowitzhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8442090.stmJan 07 10:33
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 82.79 KBJan 07 10:33
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell is Still Fishing for Software #Patents, #Microsoft and #Apple Do Patent Evils http://ur1.ca/j7xsJan 07 10:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Novell is Still Fishing for Software Patents, Microsoft and Apple Do Patent Evils | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 97.03 KBJan 07 10:35
schestowitzhttp://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2010/01/06/rumor-aol-may-be-buying-mashableJan 07 10:35
phIRCe-localTitle: Rumor: AOL May Be Buying Mashable | WebProNews .::. Size~: 32.13 KBJan 07 10:35
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @greve Quote of the day: "I use #Kontact because I prefer intelligent design to #Evolution" #kde #fsfe #gnuJan 07 10:40
schestowitzhttp://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=370446Jan 07 10:41
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] RT @lauracowen Why IBM is promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition in Dublin next week: http://bit.ly/71c7JGJan 07 10:48
phIRCe-localTitle: Why is IBM Promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition « Come see IBM Ireland at BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition .::. Size~: 13.95 KBJan 07 10:48
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] At what point does it become 'ok' to obfuscate your code. Is 'competitive advantage' a good enough reason? Pondering..Jan 07 11:01
Omar87schestowitz: Can you do me a favor  plz?Jan 07 11:32
Omar87schestowitz: can you please talk to J. Wildeboer for me?Jan 07 11:33
Omar87schestowitz: I've been trying to tweet him recently, but I'm getting no response at all.Jan 07 11:34
Omar87schestowitz: can you at least tell him there's a group of people in Jordan who would like to talk to him, and mention me?Jan 07 11:35
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Omar87schestowitz: r u there?Jan 07 11:37
schestowitz*LOL* http://www.canadaphotohost.com/is.php?i=587&img=mono-rangers-20.jpgJan 07 11:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 11:37
schestowitzWho is this blogger?Jan 07 11:37
schestowitzhttp://boycottlefty.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/mono-rangers-1-the-pilot/Jan 07 11:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Mono Rangers #1  The Pilot « Boycott Lefty .::. Size~: 10.52 KBJan 07 11:38
schestowitzOmar87: yes, sureJan 07 11:38
Omar87schestowitz: I would be very thankful. :-)Jan 07 11:38
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schestowitzOmar87: http://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/7476066889 "@jwildeboer @loophole87 and his LUG are hoping to get in touch with you to help advance F/OSS in Jordan"Jan 07 11:56
phIRCe-localTitle: Twitter / Roy Schestowitz: @jwildeboer @loophole87 an ... .::. Size~: 10.13 KBJan 07 11:56
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Google-proposes-geolocation-database/?kc=rssJan 07 11:57
phIRCe-localTitle: Google asks to administer white space networks - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 64.69 KBJan 07 11:57
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/06/very_long_pi/Jan 07 12:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Boffin calculates pi to 2.7 trillion digits • The Register .::. Size~: 26.12 KBJan 07 12:01
schestowitzMore DRM... http://themediaviking.com/software/bluray-linux/Jan 07 12:12
phIRCe-localTitle: Blu-Ray Playback in Linux | The Media Viking .::. Size~: 37.63 KBJan 07 12:12
Ender2070sudo apt-get handcuffsJan 07 12:15
oiaohm_Depends where you are Ender2070Jan 07 12:30
oiaohm_Not all places are software patents legalJan 07 12:30
schestowitzWell, bluray can be good for backups though, not just playbacksJan 07 12:35
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BvbD-1qZtc&feature=relatedJan 07 12:52
schestowitzHere's what I don't get. Two TV sources say that nearly ran out of fuel upon landing (20 seconds left); so how did they have fuel to leave the moon? Reserves? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys7RTkFFByM The gravity there is lower, but still...Jan 07 13:02
oiaohm_Explosive charge.Jan 07 13:13
oiaohm_Between the landing gear and the main capsual schestowitzJan 07 13:13
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amarsh04schestowitz, if you are talking about Apollo 11, there were separate fuel tanks and engines for descent and take-off of the moon. I was re-watching "In the shadow of the moon" earlier this eveningJan 07 13:17
amarsh04s/of/to\/from/Jan 07 13:18
amarsh04if they had run out of fuel before they landed, Neil Armstrong would have either let the lunar module hard-land (if they were just off the surface) or done an above-ground abort and jettisoned the landing stageJan 07 13:19
schestowitzI'm trying to fight footage of them making the journey back and landingJan 07 13:22
schestowitzamarsh04: OK, I'm just trying to fight more filmJan 07 13:23
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gqVbDm5OrwJan 07 13:23
amarsh04the lander had two parts, a descent stage with the ladder and the landing pads and an ascent stageJan 07 13:23
amarsh04hang on, I'm on the slow pc and can't get those clips until I start the other pcJan 07 13:24
schestowitzI'm just trying to debunk the theory it was a hoax. Some friend of mine insisted on itJan 07 13:24
amarsh04the DVD of "In the shadow of the moon" is good that way as it is all first person by the actual astronautsJan 07 13:25
oiaohm_Mythbusters covered the shadows on the moon.Jan 07 13:26
trmancogrrrJan 07 13:27
amarsh04my easiest argument against the hoax theories is the arrays of "corner cubes" left by some/all Apollo landings that reflect light straight back, including lasers shone from earthJan 07 13:27
trmancokernel update :/Jan 07 13:27
oiaohm_Also the lander was depending on the seperation of the landing stage from the ascent stage for extra bost to get way from moon.Jan 07 13:27
oiaohm_Yep the very device that is still used today to measure the distance between the earth and the moon was put up in the Apollo landings.Jan 07 13:28
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schestowitzamarsh04: I can see it here now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juSBR4zz85Q&feature=PlayList&p=864B2047B0397CCB&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4Jan 07 13:32
schestowitzIt shows the parachute and departure from Moon's surfaceJan 07 13:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Avatar Movie Reviews Miss the Role of #GNU #Linux (Satires Site) http://www.reallylinux.com/docs/avataruseslinux.shtmlJan 07 14:30
phIRCe-localTitle:   Avatar Movie Made Possible With Linux  - www.reallylinux.com        .::. Size~: 12.05 KBJan 07 14:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] "Monet" Frame Computer Runs #GNU #Linux http://blog.paultags.com/2010/01/monet-frame/Jan 07 14:31
phIRCe-localTitle:   Monet at  Peace, Love and C++ .::. Size~: 17.18 KBJan 07 14:31
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux Spreads Through Low-end Desktops http://ur1.ca/j8sc http://ur1.ca/j8sdJan 07 14:32
phIRCe-localTitle:   2010: Deluge of ARMed PCs at  Robert Pogson .::. Size~: 24.27 KBJan 07 14:32
phIRCe-localTitle: The Netbook Arena: Lenovo, Dell, HP and Linux | The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 46.38 KBJan 07 14:32
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Large OEMs Able to Use #GNU #Linux to Beat #Apple http://ur1.ca/j8sl http://ur1.ca/j8smJan 07 14:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why Computing Beyond the Point-and-Click is Important http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2010/01/i-just-want-som.htmlJan 07 14:34
phIRCe-localTitle: Dell Has Everything To Beat Apple  - Katonda .::. Size~: 33.62 KBJan 07 14:34
phIRCe-localTitle: Freescale's Linux smartbook aims to take bite out of Apple - Hardware and networks - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 82.32 KBJan 07 14:34
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Today Blog .::. Size~: 94.69 KBJan 07 14:34
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft 's Wrong Priorities Compared to #GNU #Linux http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/brian-proffitt/271682:resetting-prioritiesJan 07 14:36
satiperaThe economist worries about the future of big pharma and patent cliffs,http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/economist/audio_all/~5/X2_LWoK03v8/20091229_yearahead_3_49WP.mp3 start at 8 minutes into podcast. Jan 07 14:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Google FeedBurner .::. Size~: 11.6 KBJan 07 14:37
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #KDM and #Plasma Collaborate More Closely, Other #KDE News http://ur1.ca/j8su http://ur1.ca/j8sv http://ur1.ca/j8swJan 07 14:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Shaun Reich (sreich): KDM and Plasma: A future. .::. Size~: 82.24 KBJan 07 14:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Mix it up « Colin.Guthr.ie .::. Size~: 46.76 KBJan 07 14:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Qt Labs Blogs » Qt Graphics and Performance - OpenGL .::. Size~: 58.35 KBJan 07 14:38
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Gets Big Gift, Collaborates/Concurs with #FSF http://ur1.ca/j8sz http://ur1.ca/j6rlJan 07 14:40
phIRCe-localTitle: Stormy's Corner: GNOME got an Amazing Christmas Present! .::. Size~: 19.77 KBJan 07 14:40
phIRCe-localTitle: GNOME and FSF highlight women in free software - Free Software Foundation .::. Size~: 30.34 KBJan 07 14:40
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Guy in a landrover pulling a guy on skis in the field opposite work. Jealous. Much. #fbJan 07 14:42
cubezzzmight be worth a read:Jan 07 14:43
cubezzzhttp://maxhost.org/cubeman/ms_dirtytricks.txtJan 07 14:43
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting text/plain type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 14:43
schestowitzschestowitz: any transcription?Jan 07 14:43
schestowitzEven a soundbite would doJan 07 14:44
schestowitzPeople just won't descend to MP3s to learnJan 07 14:44
cubezzz"Having TPM hardware in the machine at all is bad enough... if you move to Vista there willJan 07 14:45
cubezzz(quite literally) be no escape. The computer you purchase will not belong to you and willJan 07 14:45
cubezzzbe deliberately designed to be secure against you, rather than for you."Jan 07 14:45
cubezzzand my personal favourite:Jan 07 14:47
cubezzz"the PDP-10 time used to run 8080 simulators. Used to write that initial BasicJan 07 14:47
cubezzzinterpreter ... stolen."Jan 07 14:47
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New GNU/Linux Releases: #Toorox 01.2010, #KahelOS Light Edition 01-01-2010 http://toorox.de/ http://ur1.ca/j8u6Jan 07 14:52
phIRCe-localTitle: Kahel OS .::. Size~: 10.87 KBJan 07 14:52
cubezzzthings have not changed since thenJan 07 14:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Promotes #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux http://bit.ly/5cmeGRJan 07 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxMint 8 Reviewed http://linuxbsdos.com/2010/01/06/linux-mint-8-review/Jan 07 14:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Why is IBM Promoting Ubuntu at the Young Scientist Exhibition « Come see IBM Ireland at BT Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition .::. Size~: 16.57 KBJan 07 14:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Linux Mint 8 review   LinuxBSDos.com .::. Size~: 71.28 KBJan 07 14:55
cubezzzhttp://quest.arc.nasa.gov/mars/ask/about-rover/Why_to_use_a_80C85_microprocessor_in_Rover_.txtJan 07 14:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Welcome to NASA Quest! .::. Size~: 71 KBJan 07 14:55
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Broadcom Puts #Linux Support on Personal Navigation Device http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Broadcom-BCM4760/?kc=rss #pndJan 07 14:56
phIRCe-localTitle: PND-on-a-chip gets Android support - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 60.22 KBJan 07 14:56
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ZiiLab #Plaszma #Linux Introduced http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/ZiiLabs-Zii-SiVo-Digital-Home-Platform/?kc=rssJan 07 14:58
phIRCe-localTitle: HD media hub design runs Android, Linux - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 63.8 KBJan 07 14:58
cubezzz"While I enjoy mocking Microsoft's Jabba-ware..." lolJan 07 14:59
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New Guide for Small Businesses That Migrate to #GNU #Linux http://www.smallbusinesscomputing.com/biztools/article.php/3856831Jan 07 14:59
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Releases the RC of #Firefox 3.6 http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/01/06/firefox-3-6-finally-gets-a-release-candidate/Jan 07 15:00
phIRCe-localTitle: Firefox 3.6 finally hits the release candidate phase .::. Size~: 83.78 KBJan 07 15:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why #MySQL #Databases Can be Sold to #Oracle and Stay Strong http://ur1.ca/j390 http://ur1.ca/j55o http://ur1.ca/j8uxJan 07 15:01
phIRCe-localTitle: Jan Wildeboer · Why I will not sign the MySQL petition .::. Size~: 45.64 KBJan 07 15:01
phIRCe-localTitle:   Monty Widenius wants another billion dollars, should we help him? | Moved by Freedom - Powered by Standards .::. Size~: 32.4 KBJan 07 15:01
jose_Xcubezzz, i was thinking some (especially in light of many/some libertarian's views towards patents AND copyrights) and reaffirmed that i think bsd/public domain/etc is fine IF copyrights don't exist.Jan 07 15:03
jose_XActually, I take that back.Jan 07 15:04
cubezzzhmm?Jan 07 15:04
jose_XGenerally, I think that whatever tools get created, if enough people exploit them, then people will realize the unfairness of it.Jan 07 15:04
jose_XIf no one has the tools, then we are all equal.Jan 07 15:04
jose_Xeg, copyrights or patentsJan 07 15:05
jose_Xthe prob is that the tools are only leveraged by a minority so effectively they have it and others don't.Jan 07 15:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] A Look at Open Source Lab at #Oregon State University http://ur1.ca/j8v8Jan 07 15:05
jose_Xanyway, technology has brought access to many more people (cheaper to do things you couldn't before without starting a huge company and getting mamoth financing, etc)Jan 07 15:06
jose_Xso today it will be clearer that some of these laws are going overboard to say the leastJan 07 15:06
cubezzzI think things are good, except for the OEM situationJan 07 15:06
cubezzzI just like to point out the historical bad stuffJan 07 15:07
jose_XNow, to get back to where I started.. the GPL works because of copyright. Eliminate copyright and all secrets or public domain.Jan 07 15:07
jose_X[btw, I haven't finished reading what you linked ms_dirtytricks.txt]Jan 07 15:07
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jose_XI'm not sure how I stand (I'm oscillating in part because I don't think about this too much)..Jan 07 15:08
jose_Xif we didn't have copyrights, then I think wine development would have taken off years ago..Jan 07 15:09
cubezzzI think copyright is fine as long as we don't get infinite extensionsJan 07 15:09
cubezzzand it's too long Jan 07 15:09
jose_Xand compatibility with MS would be closer earlier and more people would have moved off Windows and wine+others would have expanded and people woudl have moved thereJan 07 15:09
jose_Xwhat stinks of the protocol would simply mean that LInux and others would also grow alongsideJan 07 15:10
zoobab"Monty Widenius, a fellow of the Microsoft’s Codeplex Foundation, and a man who describes the asserted and patented monopoly as being “benevolent and understanding towards Open Source”."Jan 07 15:10
zoobabhttp://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2010/01/05/monty-widenius-wants-another-billion-dollars-should-we-help-him/Jan 07 15:10
phIRCe-localTitle:   Monty Widenius wants another billion dollars, should we help him? | Moved by Freedom - Powered by Standards .::. Size~: 32.4 KBJan 07 15:10
cubezzzis he Monty Extendius' cousin? :)Jan 07 15:10
jose_XMicrosoft exploits copyright.Jan 07 15:11
cubezzzthey are just thievesJan 07 15:11
cubezzzit's beyond exploitingJan 07 15:11
jose_XThey control what people can do with their products and they make everything more difficult. Also, a larger number of people (like myself) than not become disgusted and simply don't want to look at their stuff..Jan 07 15:11
jose_XI don't wnat to work and then have the carpet pulled out from underneath.. and why vote for such a company..Jan 07 15:12
cubezzzaggregating everyone else's work, and charge $200 for it over and overJan 07 15:12
cubezzzyeah I should have stayed on Unix type systemsJan 07 15:12
jose_Xanyway, the point is that the threat of litigation and vast powers granted by copyright keep people in limbo. otehrwise,...Jan 07 15:13
cubezzzinstead I took a foolish Microsoft controlled detour for 10 yearsJan 07 15:13
jose_Xexactly, you wouldn't pay again.. you'd pirate, etc.Jan 07 15:13
cubezzzno, I'm GNU/Linux 100% nowJan 07 15:13
jose_XMS EULA would be cleaned out of the software and while the person taking it out might be under contract law, the otehrs would not.Jan 07 15:13
cubezzzI actually gave the criminals moneyJan 07 15:13
jose_Xanyway, if MIcrosoft and otehrs can have the powers of copyright, then i want it to: exhibit 1 the GPLJan 07 15:14
jose_XToday, with copyright, the BSD is not something I like to use.. but I could see a case where I would not mind if basically all that existed was public domain and free for all.Jan 07 15:14
cubezzzwell I use BSD codeJan 07 15:14
cubezzzporting stuff mostlyJan 07 15:14
jose_XWith patents it could be similar except that patents are expensive and not auto so a real advantage does lie to those with moneyJan 07 15:15
jose_Xuse is one thing.. i mean create with it so that others can close it off.Jan 07 15:15
jose_Xand monopolize, for exampleJan 07 15:15
jose_Xunix was expensive. MS appeared to be a good choice I think.Jan 07 15:16
jose_Xpoint is that monopolies and abuses taht follow are not good.Jan 07 15:16
cubezzzI still regret what I didJan 07 15:16
jose_Xand in neither case is black box something that benefits me.Jan 07 15:16
jose_XI'Jan 07 15:16
jose_XmJan 07 15:16
cubezzzI had the chance to switch to Linux 0.99 in 1994Jan 07 15:16
jose_Xsmall.. my black boxes will always be small compared to those of large corps.Jan 07 15:16
cubezzzhad the Unix System V background, and I still didn't stick with it back thenJan 07 15:17
cubezzzwell BSD is older, but GNU/Linux will win in the endJan 07 15:18
jose_Xand open is better since only then do you get maximal leverage possible..Jan 07 15:18
cubezzzit pretty much has alreadyJan 07 15:18
jose_XgplJan 07 15:18
jose_XgplJan 07 15:18
cubezzzyeah if I was to put code out it would be under GPLJan 07 15:18
jose_Xat least that is what attracts me to it.. as stating earlier: i want an even field.. if copyrights are used against me, i want something like the gpl protections.Jan 07 15:18
jose_Xif you are large there are reasons to go with bsd, apache, etc, but as a small player, i find the gpl generally closest to what i want.Jan 07 15:19
jose_Xagpl reallyJan 07 15:19
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cubezzzI still like programming from stratch :)Jan 07 15:20
jose_Xpart of the problem with gpl and similar licenses is that they aren't as flexible as i would like.. eg, gpl2 means gpl2 forever.. there is a bypass by multiply licensing....Jan 07 15:20
jose_XfunJan 07 15:20
jose_Xbut not always too productiveJan 07 15:20
jose_Xexcept for learning purposesJan 07 15:20
jose_Xor Jan 07 15:20
jose_Xof courseJan 07 15:20
cubezzzdoes GPL ever expire? Like is there a time limit?Jan 07 15:20
jose_Xif you can't find what you needJan 07 15:20
jose_XnoJan 07 15:21
jose_Xyou can create something like the gpl with a time limit but it wouldn't be the gplJan 07 15:21
jose_Xalternatively, you can license as gplJan 07 15:21
MinceRyou could make copyright have a time limit once againJan 07 15:21
cubezzzjose_x, like recreating cal for exampleJan 07 15:21
jose_Xand then after say 10 years put into the public domainJan 07 15:21
MinceRand then that would apply to the gpl tooJan 07 15:21
jose_Xthat is the effect you asked for ithinkJan 07 15:21
jose_XMinceR.. by changing the law, yesJan 07 15:21
MinceRor by not extending copyright protections right before the previous one would have expiredJan 07 15:22
MinceRthe MAFIAA are changing the law to do this constantlyJan 07 15:22
jose_Xgplv4 if it comes someday should expand in the area of flexibilityJan 07 15:22
jose_Xi would hopeJan 07 15:22
jose_Xthey laugh now because they own so many assetsJan 07 15:23
jose_Xthey won't be laughing when CC share-alike starts to include really quality worksJan 07 15:23
jose_Xin high volumeJan 07 15:23
jose_Xnot enough people are leveraging copyright law.. when we do (smartly, eg, CC share-alike), then Maffiaaa will be neutralizedJan 07 15:24
cubezzzmakes me think they'll just make a copyright that doesn't expireJan 07 15:24
cubezzzCC is good thoughJan 07 15:24
jose_Xcubezzz, that may technically not be allowed since the US constitution does talk about temporary timeJan 07 15:24
jose_Xbut what is limited time? 100000 years!Jan 07 15:24
jose_Xanyway, when people create with share-alike and make some neat stuff, mafiaa will find themselves like microsoftJan 07 15:25
jose_Xunable to keep upJan 07 15:25
jose_Xand unable to mix properlyJan 07 15:25
cubezzzwe don't even have software patents in Canada (I don't think)Jan 07 15:25
jose_Xand they will be turning to patentsJan 07 15:25
cubezzzI always thought software patents were stupidJan 07 15:25
jose_Xstretching the original intentions behind patents as much as possible to protect their business from competitionJan 07 15:26
jose_Xunconstitutional as far as I can tell because they don't "promote the progress of science and useful arts"Jan 07 15:26
cubezzzBSD didn't really catch on, even though it's older than LinuxJan 07 15:26
jose_Xi think the gpl is why though people talk about the att lawsuitJan 07 15:27
jose_Xat&tJan 07 15:27
cubezzzit's the fringe of the fringe Jan 07 15:27
jose_XhehJan 07 15:27
jose_Xbut respected in many waysJan 07 15:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Hearing one side of a phone conversation is odd. Hearing 2 of 3 sides as co-workers are both on conf call is more odd. #fbJan 07 15:27
cubezzzthankfully AT&T wasn't allowed to make money on computers :)Jan 07 15:28
jose_Xi saw a posting that some EU country(ies?) are pressuring canada to change ip lawsJan 07 15:28
cubezzzwhat I mean is, most of us are using GNU/Linux not BSDJan 07 15:28
jose_Xschestowitz probably knows more about what i think i meanJan 07 15:28
cubezzzwe have Bill C-61 but it's in limbo I thinkJan 07 15:29
jose_Xsince i probably got the link here (or else at Linux Today)Jan 07 15:29
cubezzzI've noticed that linux.org seems rather boring of lateJan 07 15:30
cubezzzall they talk about is kernel updatesJan 07 15:31
jose_Xi tried to participate but didn't have much luck and just lost interestJan 07 15:31
jose_Xbut it appears things are going on in terms of forums and stuffJan 07 15:31
jose_Xi use a low res monitor (relatively) now and iirc for a while actually wasn't able to see enough of the screen to log onJan 07 15:32
cubezzzI'm still using 1024x768 Jan 07 15:33
jose_Xalso i posted some "ideas" or whatever they call it and wasn't able to find it back or see where it went)Jan 07 15:33
jose_Xi'm using lower... don't askJan 07 15:33
cubezzzwell I have a zaurus here.... :)Jan 07 15:34
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Anyone else seeing launchpad bug 500975 http://bit.ly/7fF49d when syncing Tomboy notes to Ubuntu One?Jan 07 15:34
phIRCe-localTitle: Bug #500975 in tomboy (Ubuntu): “Synchronization failed with the following exception: Unexpected character '<' at [1:1]” .::. Size~: 40.36 KBJan 07 15:34
cubezzzis 240x320 low enough for you? :)Jan 07 15:35
cubezzzI just ssh into it thoughJan 07 15:35
cubezzzI need a real keyboard :)Jan 07 15:35
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] Nitin are you in there? :-) RD: @schestowitz: A Look at Open Source Lab at #Oregon State University http://ur1.ca/j8v8Jan 07 15:38
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cubezzzah well, things are improving anywayJan 07 15:38
cubezzzjose_x, just post your ideas on your blog then give out the url Jan 07 15:39
jose_Xit's higher than thatJan 07 15:40
jose_Xi was just mentioning that i was motivated to contribute to linux.com but it didn't work out for one reason or otherJan 07 15:41
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jose_Xnot a big deal.. things may change tomorrowJan 07 15:41
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Why not to sign the MySQL petition http://is.gd/5RsAjJan 07 16:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Jan Wildeboer · Why I will not sign the MySQL petition .::. Size~: 45.72 KBJan 07 16:03
trmancohttp://rtorrentweb.com/Jan 07 16:04
phIRCe-localTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 200 Ok .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 16:05
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft ’s Kevin Turner Apparently Still in Charge of Anti- #GNU #2Linux Strategies http://ur1.ca/j8ziJan 07 16:05
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsofts Kevin Turner Apparently Still in Charge of Anti-GNU/Linux Strategies | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 98.07 KBJan 07 16:05
trmancohttp://probablyprogramming.com/2010/01/06/rolling-dice-with-js-and-unicode/Jan 07 16:16
phIRCe-localTitle: ⚃ Rolling Dice with JS and Unicode ⚂ | Probably Programming .::. Size~: 22.69 KBJan 07 16:16
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] ”On the #SVG List, a Couple of People [Are] Leery of #Microsoft .“ http://boycottnovell.com/2010/01/07/svg-skepticism-microsoft/Jan 07 16:38
phIRCe-localTitle: “On the SVG List, a Couple of People [Are] Leery of Microsoft.” | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 95.5 KBJan 07 16:38
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Microsoft and HP show off 'slate' PC - Is it just me who thinks "Flintstones" with "slate"? How apt for MS http://tinyurl.com/yaqfphsJan 07 16:50
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC News - Microsoft and HP show off 'slate' PC .::. Size~: 61.81 KBJan 07 16:50
DaemonFCschestowitz: Wasn't IE 9 supposed to finally support SVG?Jan 07 16:59
DaemonFCI think for more and more Windows users, Internet Explorer is an appendixJan 07 16:59
schestowitzIE is a dying thingJan 07 16:59
schestowitzMaybe that's why they "surrender"Jan 07 17:00
schestowitzLike they did with ODFJan 07 17:00
DaemonFCdoesn't do anything for them, but it can ruptureJan 07 17:00
schestowitzThey couldn't get rid of it like they wantedJan 07 17:00
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb except in hype, they can't match ARM/LinuxJan 07 17:00
DaemonFCthey had the money and the developers to make IE a fast, fully standards compliant browser all alongJan 07 17:00
DaemonFCthey're just now giving up on a lot of things they never wanted to supportJan 07 17:01
DaemonFCI guess I'll probably try IE 9 when it's a public beta, just like I tried out IE 8 briefly, it's a laugh anywayJan 07 17:01
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] @schestowitz I note they manage to fit in both that Win7 is both the best selling, and that everyone loves it in that BBC pieceJan 07 17:02
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-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] @schestowitz I also note the underwhelming responses too, like "seems like old MS software in an old form factor, just reheated upJan 07 17:09
kecskebakDaily Telegraph is disappointed... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ces/6944808/CES-2010-Microsoft-chief-Steve-Ballmer-fails-to-wow-crowds-at-opening.htmlJan 07 17:10
phIRCe-localTitle: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening  - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KBJan 07 17:10
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @thistleweb I would just avoid paying attention to it http://ur1.ca/j94yJan 07 17:15
phIRCe-localTitle: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening  - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KBJan 07 17:15
DaemonFCTwo executions set for tonightJan 07 17:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] BBC - dot.Maggie: Tablets at CES: Microsoft fails to wow http://tinyurl.com/ydhngosJan 07 17:18
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC - dot.Maggie: Tablets at CES: Microsoft fails to wow .::. Size~: 80.07 KBJan 07 17:18
DaemonFCa cop killer and a child killerJan 07 17:18
DaemonFCthey should televise this stuffJan 07 17:19
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "Bing, will become the default search engine on all Hewlett Packard PCs" - 1 reason not to buy them then http://tinyurl.com/y98kbklJan 07 17:19
phIRCe-localTitle: CES 2010: Microsoft chief Steve Ballmer fails to wow crowds at opening  - Telegraph .::. Size~: 57.76 KBJan 07 17:19
DaemonFCI mean, you have all these hippies saying being put to sleep is painful and therefore "cruel and unusual"Jan 07 17:19
DaemonFCI wonder if they ever watched an executionJan 07 17:20
DaemonFCI asked someone from France if they supported the decision to ban the death sentence there, and he said that there's a lot of people that want them to bring back the guillotineJan 07 17:21
DaemonFChe sad there's protesters that chant that sometimes when someone has just gotten a life sentenceJan 07 17:21
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Denounced Again by Former Employee for Not Paying #Washington #Tax http://ur1.ca/j95yJan 07 17:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft Denounced Again by Former Employee for Not Paying Washington Tax; Bill Gates Increases Washington (DC) Influence | Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 100.34 KBJan 07 17:28
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Terror is the price of support for despots and dictators | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian http://tinyurl.com/yect6zaJan 07 17:30
schestowitzDoes this have Linux? http://www.techworld.com.au/article/331606/ces_2010_new_panasonic_lumix_cameras_go_high-capacity?fp=2&fpid=1&rid=1Jan 07 17:34
phIRCe-localTitle: CES 2010: New Panasonic Lumix cameras go high-capacity - ces 2010, digital cameras, Panasonic, photography - Techworld .::. Size~: 41.43 KBJan 07 17:35
schestowitz"Can Microsoft give us one surprise at this keynote please? Just one." http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7466271108Jan 07 17:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Can Microsoft give us one  ... .::. Size~: 9.83 KBJan 07 17:37
schestowitzBallmer's keynote seems choppy. "As we close this demo..." What?! http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7465878195Jan 07 17:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Ballmer's keynote seems ch ... .::. Size~: 9.84 KBJan 07 17:37
schestowitzNot even the words? This is awful. http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/7466181249Jan 07 17:37
phIRCe-localTitle: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: Not even the words? This i ... .::. Size~: 9.77 KBJan 07 17:38
schestowitzMicrosoft is busy laying people off; no news productsJan 07 17:38
schestowitzhttp://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/mobiles-may-protect-brain-from-alzheimers-study-20100107-lvh3.htmlJan 07 17:41
phIRCe-localTitle: Mobiles may protect brain from Alzheimer's: study .::. Size~: 93.19 KBJan 07 17:41
schestowitzhttp://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-sci-avatar-q-and-a2-2010jan02,0,5033714.storyJan 07 17:46
phIRCe-localTitle: Inventing the plants of 'Avatar' - latimes.com .::. Size~: 119.6 KBJan 07 17:46
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schestowitzThis one might come handy some day http://www.sutor.com/c/2010/01/checking-broken-links-in-wordpress-blogs/  bbl g2gJan 07 17:54
phIRCe-localTitle: Checking broken links in WordPress blogs | Blog | Bob Sutor .::. Size~: 29.99 KBJan 07 17:54
DaemonFCschestowitz: What made me laugh is that they even stole "Mii" avatars from the WiiJan 07 18:09
DaemonFCand included them in a firmware updateJan 07 18:09
DaemonFCthat's what firmware upgrades are good for, Nintendo and Sony use them to add features and fix bugs, and all Microsoft uses them for is to ban consoles from Live, force you to buy their memory cards, and steal features from their competitors after the console is releasedJan 07 18:11
DaemonFC:PJan 07 18:11
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DaemonFCschestowitz: Did you mention that Microsoft is having to run another "half price promo" to keep sales numbers going?Jan 07 18:13
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rnbgood morning peopleJan 07 18:28
rnbi like this channelJan 07 18:28
rnbi want to hang out hereJan 07 18:29
rnbsomeone should give me a "welcome to #boycottnovell" tourJan 07 18:30
Ender2070brbJan 07 18:33
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rnbTOUR!!!Jan 07 18:37
DaemonFC*lights a cigarette*Jan 07 18:46
DaemonFC*whistles*Jan 07 18:46
DaemonFCimaginary cigarettes don't kill me, but I pretend that they doJan 07 18:46
DaemonFCThe state of Indiana wants all the pretend cigarette tax I haven't paidJan 07 18:47
DaemonFChmm, History Channel says that Zambia refused grain donated from the US during their famine because it was "genetically engineered"Jan 07 18:49
DaemonFC"Here, we're all starving and will be dead in weeks without food, but we won't eat ge crops cause they might have the cumulative effect of cutting our lives a year short"Jan 07 18:50
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DaemonFCZambia :P They probably only live to be 30 anywayJan 07 18:50
DaemonFCone of those countries whose GDP is primarily subsistence farming and AIDSJan 07 18:51
DaemonFCand it's all America's faultJan 07 18:52
DaemonFCcan't tell you why, just that it isJan 07 18:52
DaemonFCthat's the important partJan 07 18:52
DaemonFC"Cyber Terrorism", lulzJan 07 18:53
DaemonFCthey're talking about terrorists hacking into our early warning systemJan 07 18:54
DaemonFCstarting a nuclear warJan 07 18:54
DaemonFCOMG!!!!!!!Jan 07 18:54
DaemonFCthey're h4x0r1ng into a wifi network using WEPJan 07 18:55
DaemonFC*I* can do thatJan 07 18:55
DaemonFCJesusJan 07 18:55
DaemonFCthis is lameJan 07 18:55
DaemonFC"We can go hack the Pentagon!"Jan 07 18:55
DaemonFCThey use Linksys routers and WEP?Jan 07 18:55
DaemonFCand Windows XP?Jan 07 18:57
DaemonFCI'm more technologically sophisticated than the Pentagon if that's the caseJan 07 18:57
ender2070they have deals with msJan 07 18:57
ender2070its probably trueJan 07 18:57
DaemonFCthis History Channel crap is so stupidJan 07 18:58
DaemonFCthey have the workstation screen lock on the screen and call it a firewallJan 07 18:58
DaemonFCthis shit is just bananasJan 07 18:58
ender2070b a n a n a sJan 07 19:00
DaemonFCuhhhhJan 07 19:08
DaemonFCyeahJan 07 19:08
rnbHEY NOW!Jan 07 19:10
ender2070never heard of gwen stefaniJan 07 19:10
ThistleWebgwen stefani is the singer with no doubtJan 07 19:10
rnblet me explain why zambia was correct in their decisionJan 07 19:11
rnbhad they allowed monsanto's infected, frankenstein seeds into their agriculture program, there is a possibility that those plants would start to infect neighboring cropsJan 07 19:11
rnband, per monsanto's intellectual property policies, this would start the process by which zambia would end up being slaves to monsantoJan 07 19:12
rnband, this is the US's fault because the US government is pretty much oned by monsanto and assists them in their evil plans Jan 07 19:13
rnbso, the heartless action taken here was monsanto's exploitation of a human tragedy to try and invade the agricultural market of yet another countryJan 07 19:13
ThistleWebthe EU wont accept "potentially tainted" crops either, which means crops grown on land previously sewn with GM crops, so the only market they have is the US who infected them in the first placeJan 07 19:13
rnbthe truth of the matter is that there is MORE than enough food produced in the world that no society should have to suffer the effects of malnutrition or starvationJan 07 19:15
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rnbit is only the global system of food distribution (a for-profit scam) that causes this tragedyJan 07 19:15
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Recommendation to all the metallers who follow me....a great band! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW3x0dFHABU&feature=relatedJan 07 19:15
rnbhowever, any alternative would immediately be viewed as an Evil Communist Plot and could lead to anything from aggressive trade actions all the way to black ops and agricultural sabotageJan 07 19:16
ThistleWebI saw a documentary a while back on mosanto about them giving "aid" in the form of seeds etc without mentioning it was GM and would taint their land and ensure that the US was their only market if they used the cropsJan 07 19:20
rnbyesJan 07 19:21
ThistleWebthe "aid" was coming through the US aid channels, donated by mosantoJan 07 19:22
ThistleWebthe problem is that countries who need aid are very poor and cant turn down anything they getJan 07 19:23
ThistleWebthey cant afford to look to the future when they have a population who need to eat today, and mosanto knows it and exploits itJan 07 19:23
ThistleWebeven the US food chain dont mention where stuff is GM, so the US consumer doesnt know, and therefor cant make a choice to eat it or notJan 07 19:24
rnbeither that or the leadership of the country who DID stand up to monsanto's extortion was kidnapped by NED-funded black op groups in a coup d'etatJan 07 19:24
rnband replaced by an undemocratic leader who would play ballJan 07 19:24
ThistleWebfood companies are desperate to avoid GM stuff having to be marked as GM on UK shelves, because they fear the backlash of the cnsumer rejecting it if they knowJan 07 19:24
ThistleWebsince the US is the only place they can sell their crops, the US can cut the price down to peanuts and put caps on it, knowing they cant sell it anwyhere elseJan 07 19:28
ThistleWebthey become "US market vouchers" redeemable only in the USJan 07 19:28
ThistleWebunder any conditions the US corps want to set for their own profitsJan 07 19:29
ThistleWebeither sell under those conditions, or watch your crops wither and die, and your people continue to starveJan 07 19:29
ThistleWeba key position in any negotiation is the ability to walk away and seek an alternate optionJan 07 19:30
ThistleWebwithout that, they have nothingJan 07 19:30
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] hot diggidy dingdong it's fucking cold again tonightJan 07 19:32
rnbit's a crime against humanityJan 07 19:34
rnbviva socialismoJan 07 19:34
rnbthe only antidote to this kind of insanityJan 07 19:35
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neighborleehiJan 07 19:39
_goblinhiJan 07 19:42
neighborleecan someone plllllllease remind me,,what the deal was with FAT in linuxJan 07 19:45
neighborleewasn't there some ,,deal that made fat a NON issue to complain about mono being included ??Jan 07 19:45
neighborleeit came up in another channel, and I could not remeber what the deal with FAT wasJan 07 19:45
DaemonFClong file namesJan 07 19:45
neighborleehmJan 07 19:45
neighborleebut I mean , what makes it 'ok' to use FAT and no mono..thats what im getting atJan 07 19:46
DaemonFCMicrosoft had a patent on how to create both a long and short file name in FAT32 at onceJan 07 19:46
DaemonFCso Linux now makes one or the otherJan 07 19:46
neighborleeahJan 07 19:46
neighborleeso adherance by avoidance ?Jan 07 19:46
neighborlee:)Jan 07 19:46
DaemonFCwell, the patent just says you can't have both at onceJan 07 19:46
neighborleeahJan 07 19:47
DaemonFCso if the file name is 8 characters or less, you make a short oneJan 07 19:47
DaemonFCand if longer than 8, you make a long oneJan 07 19:47
DaemonFCSomething about that (rarely) freaks Windows XP outJan 07 19:47
DaemonFCand you get a blue screen of deathJan 07 19:47
neighborleeah yes LOLJan 07 19:47
rnbVenezuela: Obama is worse than BushJan 07 19:49
rnbhaha, excellentJan 07 19:49
rnb"When we thought there couldn't be anything worse than Bush," Venezuelan National Assembly President Cilia Flores noted, along came Obama "masked" as the "hero of the film" who emerged as "more of the same."Jan 07 19:50
neighborleewell in some ways , yesJan 07 19:51
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Downloads up as album sales drop - Nothing to do with the flood of identical dancing monkeys of course http://tinyurl.com/yedxbroJan 07 19:52
phIRCe-localTitle: BBC News - Downloads up as album sales drop .::. Size~: 47.29 KBJan 07 19:52
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rnbhaha, excellent part 2: President Hugo Chavez may seize Toyota factory and give it to the ChineseJan 07 19:56
rnbChavez said if the inspection showed Toyota was not producing what he thought it should, the government might consider taking over the facilities and have Chinese companies operate it.Jan 07 19:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Does the anit-(Gordon)Brown feeling hurt (Ubuntu)Brown by word association?Jan 07 19:57
KarateTigeralrightJan 07 20:11
KarateTigerSo, I believe it's safe to use C#Jan 07 20:11
KarateTigertell me why I'm wrongJan 07 20:11
neighborleehit here friendJan 07 20:12
neighborleeGAHJan 07 20:12
neighborleehit/hiJan 07 20:12
neighborleevery sorry, that sounded horribleJan 07 20:12
neighborleedain fingers todayJan 07 20:12
neighborleeKarateTiger: I doubt everyone will chime in at the sametime..give it a few moments'ish and someone willJan 07 20:13
neighborleeI mean besides myself ;))Jan 07 20:13
neighborleeYou know how I feel..lets get a opinion from someone else ;)Jan 07 20:13
ender2070c# sucksJan 07 20:13
neighborleesomething more substantive would help ender ;)Jan 07 20:15
KarateTigeryeah... I'm looking more for some arguments that would hold up in a courtroomJan 07 20:15
*neighborlee pokes EVERYONE else in thereJan 07 20:15
neighborleecome on people,,he asked a legitimate question..speak up!!Jan 07 20:15
ender2070I don't think you'll end up in a court room over using c#Jan 07 20:16
KarateTigerWell, let's say I'm a company that builds software using monoJan 07 20:17
ender2070microsoft can't win if they sue users, they need to reach critical massJan 07 20:17
KarateTigerthe thing is microsoft already claims to hold lots of patents that are infringed by various linux distributionsJan 07 20:18
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] Installing @boxee beta on my Acer Aspire Revo HD box under the telly! (the box is under the telly, not me) #fbJan 07 20:19
ender2070okayJan 07 20:19
KarateTigerhttp://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/Jan 07 20:21
phIRCe-localTitle: Microsoft claims software like Linux violates its patents - May 28, 2007 .::. Size~: 54.8 KBJan 07 20:21
KarateTigerThe way patents work is, every once in a while, a company may try to extort money out of a competitor by claiming patentsJan 07 20:24
KarateTigerIt's a gamble however, legal costs may rise as a lenghty legal process takes placesJan 07 20:24
KarateTigerUsually, there will be an agreement before the court makes a decisionJan 07 20:25
KarateTigerIt's not a danger for free software, it's a danger for companies that use it with their productsJan 07 20:26
KarateTigerBut it really is a danger for any companyJan 07 20:26
KarateTigerI'm somebody holds the patent for "text conversation over a telecommunications network" issued in 1957Jan 07 20:28
KarateTiger*sureJan 07 20:28
KarateTigerBut that doesn't stop people from writing IRC clientsJan 07 20:28
*ThistleWeb has quit ("Lost terminal")Jan 07 20:28
KarateTiger"Any free program is threatened constantly by software patents," Stallman wrote in a 1991 revision to the GPL.Jan 07 20:30
schestowitzI didn't know MacArthur was stupid enough to ask Truman for 20-30 nuclear bombs to use against China... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LrGWNW6PMJan 07 20:32
schestowitz[19:10] <ThistleWeb> gwen stefani is the singer with no doubtJan 07 20:33
KarateTigerschestowitz: Judging by the quality of the narration I would doubt the validity of these statementsJan 07 20:33
schestowitzIs she still around doing solo?Jan 07 20:34
KarateTiger[citation needed]!Jan 07 20:34
schestowitzMaybe the MAFIAA canned here for not selling loads of copies of an albumJan 07 20:34
schestowitzThose products they call "singers" have limited shelf life, so they go to some modelling agency to pick young men and women, teaching them how to lip-synchJan 07 20:35
schestowitz[19:45] <neighborlee> can someone plllllllease remind me,,what the deal was with FAT in linuxJan 07 20:35
schestowitzneighborlee: I have a new page about itJan 07 20:35
neighborleehmJan 07 20:36
KarateTigerjust read wikipediaJan 07 20:36
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/TomTomJan 07 20:36
phIRCe-localTitle: TomTom - Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 24.08 KBJan 07 20:36
KarateTigerIt's a matter for the courts, as is anythingJan 07 20:36
schestowitzKarateTiger: it sounds like the narrator was just readingJan 07 20:37
KarateTigerhe didn't give any sourceJan 07 20:37
KarateTigerTo me he sounds like the narrator from loose change ;)Jan 07 20:38
neighborleeKarateTiger: btw thx for coming in here I appreciate your willingness to discussJan 07 20:38
neighborleeKarateTiger: from one oss user to another ;))))Jan 07 20:38
neighborleeblender rocks!!Jan 07 20:38
KarateTigerWell I kind of have more the Linus Torvalds standpoint on FOSSJan 07 20:39
neighborleeI dont disgree with thatJan 07 20:39
neighborleeI'm all for nvidia, though I know many hate it cause its n ot ossJan 07 20:39
neighborleeso yeah I get that.Jan 07 20:39
DaemonFChttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgWRycd7I&feature=relatedJan 07 20:40
KarateTigerStallman is a radical, and if he had his way, gnu/linux wouldn't run a single nonfree programJan 07 20:40
neighborleethat may be, but I think on atl east the issue of mono he's rightJan 07 20:40
neighborleefedora agrees with him at Jan 07 20:40
neighborlee-atJan 07 20:40
neighborlee:)Jan 07 20:40
KarateTigeryeah because fedora is one of the companies to be held liableJan 07 20:40
neighborleeI might not think fedora is 'stable', but they are decent champions of OSSJan 07 20:41
KarateTigerIt's the same with FFMPEGJan 07 20:41
neighborleedoesn't make their stance on mono wrong thoughJan 07 20:41
DaemonFCwhich nobody bundles as wellJan 07 20:41
neighborlee:)Jan 07 20:41
KarateTigerFFMPEG is great and we should all use itJan 07 20:41
neighborleeI dont know that much about it honesltyJan 07 20:41
neighborleeI stilll think the 'ecma' issue is VERY tellingJan 07 20:42
KarateTigerI think that statement by microsoft has only been made because of all the concerns and whatnotJan 07 20:43
neighborleein addition to fact, that the promise' M$ made was also found to binding only for them and their needs not ossJan 07 20:43
neighborleebut stillJan 07 20:43
neighborleeyou surely know what gpl meansJan 07 20:43
neighborleeyou can't tell someone to ONLY download something from them, and have it still considered 'free'Jan 07 20:43
Aondohttp://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/130580/original.jpg - something wrong? :) Jan 07 20:43
phIRCe-localTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBJan 07 20:43
KarateTigerLook at what the base framework of .net does. If you infringe on patents by implementing that, I doubt you can implement the java base framework without infringing on many of those very same patents.Jan 07 20:44
neighborleejava is now freeJan 07 20:44
neighborleehas been for sometimeJan 07 20:44
neighborleebesides..Jan 07 20:44
KarateTigerso is the .net specJan 07 20:44
neighborleewhen was the last time sun sued linux...or was caught being a 'monopoly' ? ;))Jan 07 20:44
KarateTigerThat doesn't mean an implementation of java couldn't infringe on copyrightsJan 07 20:45
KarateTigerI mean patentsJan 07 20:45
schestowitz[20:40] <KarateTiger> Stallman is a radical, and if he had his way, gnu/linux wouldn't run a single nonfree programJan 07 20:45
KarateTiger-copyrightsJan 07 20:45
schestowitzDefine radicalJan 07 20:45
KarateTigerSomebody who takes a standpoint that accepts no compromiseJan 07 20:45
schestowitzOne person's "radical" is another's "normal" (meaning average of surrounding populace)Jan 07 20:45
KarateTigerNo, that's not what the word radical meansJan 07 20:46
schestowitzKarateTiger: actually, RMS changs his mindJan 07 20:46
KarateTigerBut of course, if you're a radical yourself, it will seem normal to you ;)Jan 07 20:46
schestowitzE.g. CC and GDPLJan 07 20:46
schestowitz"Radical, from Late Latin radicalis "of roots" and from Latin radix "root", may refer to"Jan 07 20:46
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RadicalJan 07 20:46
phIRCe-localTitle: Radical - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 26.07 KBJan 07 20:46
KarateTigerdisambiguationJan 07 20:47
schestowitzRMS is rooted in the idea that software ought to be freeJan 07 20:47
schestowitzMany people are rooted in the idea that abortions are necessary sometimes Jan 07 20:47
DaemonFCthey need to abort the motherJan 07 20:47
schestowitzKarateTiger: how am I radical?Jan 07 20:47
schestowitzPls explain :-)Jan 07 20:48
KarateTigerI saif IF you are a radicalJan 07 20:48
KarateTigerbeing radical will probably seem normal to youJan 07 20:48
DaemonFCthey need to expand abortionsJan 07 20:48
schestowitzOh, I read it sloppilyJan 07 20:48
schestowitzWhat makes RMS "radical"?Jan 07 20:48
DaemonFCto where you can just kill your kid up to age 18Jan 07 20:48
schestowitzA lot of influential people get called thatJan 07 20:48
neighborleeDaemonFC: lolJan 07 20:49
DaemonFCgive you plenty of time to think it overJan 07 20:49
KarateTigerhe does not accept proprietary software in any formJan 07 20:49
schestowitzIt's like when Brits said Napoleon had one testicleJan 07 20:49
schestowitzThese are smearsJan 07 20:49
neighborleelolJan 07 20:49
KarateTigerLinux Torvalds does. In fact, he's been using it to develop the linux kernel.Jan 07 20:49
schestowitzKarateTiger: he is in a position where he sets an exampleJan 07 20:49
DaemonFCneighborlee: I could see it now "It is a defense for the parent to claim the murder was an abortion"Jan 07 20:49
schestowitzKarateTiger: do did RMSJan 07 20:50
schestowitzHe used it to develop GNUJan 07 20:50
neighborleeDaemonFC: hehJan 07 20:50
DaemonFCyour kid pisses you off while you're watching OprahJan 07 20:50
KarateTigeryeah, but back then he had no real choiceJan 07 20:50
DaemonFCshoot the little bastardJan 07 20:50
neighborleeDaemonFC: stranger things have happened sadly yes ;)Jan 07 20:50
DaemonFCit's your right as a parentJan 07 20:50
KarateTigerSince "free software" as he defined it had to come into existence yetJan 07 20:50
neighborleeI tend to go with the muslim view of abortionJan 07 20:50
neighborleeONLY up to 3rd trimster is it ??Jan 07 20:50
*neighborlee is not a abortion expertJan 07 20:50
DaemonFCneighborlee: That you can abort anyone who isn't a Muslim?Jan 07 20:51
MinceR214834 < DaemonFC> to where you can just kill your kid up to age 18Jan 07 20:51
DaemonFC:DJan 07 20:51
MinceRwhy those limits?Jan 07 20:51
neighborleeDaemonFC: nono LOLJan 07 20:51
MinceR"your kid" and "up to age 18"?Jan 07 20:51
neighborleeDaemonFC: I just said ,,islams VIEW of itJan 07 20:51
neighborlee:))Jan 07 20:51
MinceRi'd like to "abort" some people...Jan 07 20:51
DaemonFCwell, the law typically says that they're a child until 18Jan 07 20:51
neighborleelolJan 07 20:51
KarateTigerabortion the way you kind do it england is murderJan 07 20:51
DaemonFCin some cases you should be able to abort them up to 21Jan 07 20:51
DaemonFCdepending on their emancipation statusJan 07 20:51
neighborleeDaemonFC: in theory, that is correct..hell, our brains aren't even MATURE until later on>>Jan 07 20:51
KarateTigerthere are children who survived abortionsJan 07 20:52
neighborleeso yeah..before 18 we are still infants practically ;)Jan 07 20:52
neighborleetell me we dont all resemble that remark! ;))Jan 07 20:52
DaemonFCKarateTiger: I'd sue my parents if I found out that they had tried to do that and I lived through itJan 07 20:52
KarateTigerSue them for what?Jan 07 20:52
*sebsebseb (n=3seb@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 20:52
DaemonFCthere's no criminal law against attempted murder in that caseJan 07 20:53
DaemonFCso you'd have to sue themJan 07 20:53
sebsebsebHiJan 07 20:53
DaemonFCKarateTiger: What I don't get is why we don't legalize cutting children older than 9 months into tiny pieces and disposing of themJan 07 20:54
DaemonFCseems kind of discriminatory to me, is all I'm sayingJan 07 20:54
KarateTigerwell, that still is a differenceJan 07 20:54
DaemonFCnot reallyJan 07 20:54
KarateTigeran aborted child usually has no chance of survivalJan 07 20:54
DaemonFCif you savagely murder them on this side of the pussy, it's a crimeJan 07 20:55
KarateTigerBut that depends on how much developed it isJan 07 20:55
DaemonFCbut if they haven't come out yet, it's notJan 07 20:55
DaemonFCI just want it to be fair :DJan 07 20:55
KarateTigera fetus that is 3 weeks old doesn't even have brainwavesJan 07 20:55
trmancohttp://madsheytan.blogspot.com/2010/01/kde-44-zrzuty-i-screencast.htmlJan 07 20:55
phIRCe-localTitle: Zainteresowania i pasje: KDE 4.4 - zrzuty i screencast .::. Size~: 91.06 KBJan 07 20:55
trmancojust got thatJan 07 20:55
DaemonFCso if you're in a coma and I kill you, it's not a crimeJan 07 20:56
KarateTigerIf I believed in the concept of a soul, I'd say "It doesn't have a soul yet"Jan 07 20:56
DaemonFCcause you weren't self-aware at the momentJan 07 20:56
DaemonFCI don't think any court would believe thatJan 07 20:56
KarateTigerhaving no brainwaves means more than not being "self-aware"Jan 07 20:56
KarateTigerIf you're brain-dead, you're dead to meJan 07 20:56
KarateTigerTerry Shiavo was deadJan 07 20:57
DaemonFCI'm not religious, I just don't see how a doctor could murder and carve a human being upJan 07 20:57
MinceRwhat about crApple cultists?Jan 07 20:57
MinceRare they brain-dead enough? :)Jan 07 20:57
DaemonFCI'd have trouble killing someone that could defend themselvesJan 07 20:57
DaemonFC:)Jan 07 20:57
_goblinis this going somewhere?Jan 07 20:57
DaemonFCyes _goblin we're going to abort youJan 07 20:58
DaemonFCit wo't hurt muchJan 07 20:58
_goblinah....I see the level its at now.Jan 07 20:58
DaemonFCyou'll make the hitman a lot of money on the way outJan 07 20:58
_goblinah.Jan 07 20:58
DaemonFCseriously, most hit men don't get paid what a doctor doesJan 07 20:58
DaemonFCthey're getting screwedJan 07 20:59
MinceRdon't you think the hitman would ask for the same sum to kill you, DaemonFC? :>Jan 07 20:59
_goblinhow many hitmen do you know?  what about hitwomen?  is there equality in the paystructure for contract killers?Jan 07 20:59
_goblinthat was @daemonFCJan 07 20:59
DaemonFCMinceR: Maybe $10,000 or soJan 07 20:59
schestowitz_goblin: female abortionistsJan 07 20:59
MinceRso, is that your "stimulus package", then? :>Jan 07 21:00
DaemonFCabortion doctors are part of the "medical industry"Jan 07 21:00
DaemonFCyou know, the one that helps peopleJan 07 21:00
neighborleeexcept those killed by true 'radical's ? ;))Jan 07 21:00
neighborleeyeah, dont get me startedJan 07 21:00
schestowitzDaemonFC: The Medical Industrial ComplexJan 07 21:00
DaemonFCmaybe the $12,000 they charge includes helping you dig a hole in the backyardJan 07 21:00
DaemonFCoh wait, the law protects these assholesJan 07 21:00
_goblinDaemonFC: Are you religious?Jan 07 21:00
schestowitzWas it Roosevelt who warned that they would hijack the system for extortio... insurance money?Jan 07 21:01
DaemonFCDaemonFC: I already said I'm notJan 07 21:01
neighborlee_goblin: I am too just in case it mattersJan 07 21:01
DaemonFCerrrJan 07 21:01
neighborleeo_0Jan 07 21:01
DaemonFC_goblin: Jan 07 21:01
neighborleehehJan 07 21:01
MinceRDaemonFC: so you think that people who conceive a child by mistake should be forced to finance the upbringing of that child?Jan 07 21:01
schestowitzNobody is religiousJan 07 21:01
_goblindaemonFC: so then please tell me, if you are not...then "thou shalt not kill" really doesnt have the same meaning does it?Jan 07 21:01
schestowitzIt's like saying, "are you an alien?"Jan 07 21:01
neighborleeschestowitz: its a BROAD topic ;)Jan 07 21:01
DaemonFCI don't like the people going out there and saying "God doesn't like *whatever*"Jan 07 21:01
_goblindaemonFC: on what basis are you against abortion?Jan 07 21:01
neighborleeDaemonFC: exactlyJan 07 21:02
DaemonFCbut there's some things that are just depravedJan 07 21:02
schestowitzneighborlee: :-)Jan 07 21:02
neighborleeDaemonFC: though sometimes it IS relevantJan 07 21:02
DaemonFCdepraved and with a victimJan 07 21:02
MinceRDaemonFC: do we really have such a shortage of population that we need to hold on to every embryo?Jan 07 21:02
DaemonFCthis isn't just something you can shrug and say "victimless crime"Jan 07 21:02
_goblinDaemonFC: never said it was....I ask for the basis of your morals.Jan 07 21:03
DaemonFCMinceR: The government gives you 90 days in jail if you have alcohol and are under 21 but over 18Jan 07 21:03
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #NY Metro train nearly runs over safety inspectors http://ur1.ca/j9mjJan 07 21:03
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #AMD releases awesome, now in mobile flavor http://ur1.ca/j9mkJan 07 21:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Metro train nearly hits independent safety inspectors - washingtonpost.com .::. Size~: 103.73 KBJan 07 21:03
schestowitz_goblin: ubuntu?Jan 07 21:03
phIRCe-localTitle: Slashdot Mobile Story | AMD Launches World's First Mobile DirectX 11 GPUs .::. Size~: 74.7 KBJan 07 21:03
DaemonFCThe government gives you a year for an ounce of potJan 07 21:03
_goblinKDE or Gnome?Jan 07 21:03
DaemonFCthey decriminalized murder of an infant thoughJan 07 21:03
DaemonFCit's all about population controlJan 07 21:04
schestowitz_goblin: who, me?Jan 07 21:04
schestowitzI was saying, morals come from ubuntuJan 07 21:04
_goblinDaemonFC: and I seem to remember you be all for letting people die in third world countries....Jan 07 21:04
MinceRDaemonFC: they do a lot of stupid thingsJan 07 21:04
schestowitzInner compassionJan 07 21:04
DaemonFCthe UN's agenda says legalize abortionJan 07 21:04
_goblinDaemonFC: thats why I had you on ignore for a few months.Jan 07 21:04
MinceRDaemonFC: like discriminate against certain kinds of narcotics but not othersJan 07 21:04
DaemonFCbasically do everything to get it other than rewrite a countries lawsJan 07 21:04
schestowitzIf you see a kid with a candy, you'd have to be deranged or desperate to kill the kid for the candyJan 07 21:04
DaemonFCMinceR: They penalize the victimless crimes while doling out slaps on the wrist for things that cause harm to othersJan 07 21:06
DaemonFCit makes no sense to me at allJan 07 21:06
KarateTigerwell, you gotta be able to abort at some pointJan 07 21:07
_goblindaemonFC: tell me a victimless crime....Jan 07 21:07
KarateTigera 9 week old embryo is not an infantJan 07 21:07
DaemonFCyou see people get 3-4 DUIs before they take their license awayJan 07 21:07
DaemonFCbut the cops stop and bother people that were walking home drunk instead of risking killing peopleJan 07 21:07
_goblincops/courts.... two different things my friend.Jan 07 21:07
DaemonFCit's gotten to where DUI is barely even a crimeJan 07 21:08
MinceRyou also see convicted monopolists get to hand over their lunch money and keep doing what they were convicted forJan 07 21:08
KarateTigerlolJan 07 21:08
KarateTiger"convicted monopolists"Jan 07 21:08
KarateTigerYou gotta have shit for brainsJan 07 21:08
MinceRlet's hear your defense of m$, thenJan 07 21:08
MinceRwe're all earsJan 07 21:08
KarateTigerFirst, look up what "conviction" meansJan 07 21:09
MinceRor random insults are all you can provide?Jan 07 21:09
DaemonFCthe laws give the courts way too much control over sentencingJan 07 21:09
ender2070KarateTiger - US vs Microsoft, EU vs Microsoft, Opera vs MicrosoftJan 07 21:09
_goblin? daemonFC you serious?Jan 07 21:09
DaemonFCit gets to where a few very connected people get slapped on the wrist for the same crimes others spend life in prison overJan 07 21:09
DaemonFC_goblin: Yeah, I believe in mandatory minimum sentencing on some thingsJan 07 21:10
_goblindaemonFC: really?  Doesnt work.....why?  Because you can't blanket every case with a min sentence.Jan 07 21:10
_goblinfor example:Jan 07 21:10
_goblinif you had a min tarif for murder....Jan 07 21:10
DaemonFCthat's why there are degrees of murderJan 07 21:11
DaemonFCthe law already allows for leniency depending on the circumstancesJan 07 21:11
_goblinwould it be proportionate for a victim of domestic violence who plots to kill her partner get the same sentence as murder of another kind...Jan 07 21:11
_goblinUK law has murder/Mansaughter.Jan 07 21:11
KarateTigerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._MicrosoftJan 07 21:12
phIRCe-localTitle: United States v. Microsoft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 98.47 KBJan 07 21:12
KarateTigersettlementJan 07 21:12
DaemonFCif it's pre-meditated, the minimum they should be able to get is 30 yearsJan 07 21:12
_goblinreally?Jan 07 21:12
DaemonFCno matter whatJan 07 21:12
_goblineven the badly beaten wife?Jan 07 21:12
DaemonFCand no parole during that timeJan 07 21:12
_goblinwho feared for her life?Jan 07 21:12
_goblinwho maybe saw the man kill her child?Jan 07 21:12
KarateTigerMicrosoft has never been "convicted" of monopolyJan 07 21:12
_goblinthat would be proportionate?Jan 07 21:13
DaemonFCminimums don't say the court can't give you more yearsJan 07 21:13
DaemonFCthey say "not less than"Jan 07 21:13
_goblintrue...but then you can't go on the less than....Jan 07 21:13
_goblinotherwise you do encourage miscarrages of justice....Jan 07 21:13
DaemonFChelps with the problem of a high priced lawyerJan 07 21:13
DaemonFCgoes in there and gets you counseling for savagely murdering your wife :DJan 07 21:13
DaemonFCsome probation too :DJan 07 21:14
KarateTigeralso, the case in the EU isn't about monopoly, it's about business practicesJan 07 21:14
_goblinyou cannot blanket crime since every incident needs to be looked at individually.Jan 07 21:14
MinceRanticompetitive business practices.Jan 07 21:14
DaemonFC_goblin: I walked through the prison my aunt works atJan 07 21:14
_goblinyeah.....and?Jan 07 21:14
DaemonFCthey segregate prisoners based on the seriousness of the crime they got convicted of, on paperJan 07 21:14
_goblinand?Jan 07 21:15
DaemonFCshe said really they mix and match because the biggest difference is what lawyer they gotJan 07 21:15
*ender2070 has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 07 21:15
_goblinnow that I do agree with.Jan 07 21:15
DaemonFCso you have cold blooded murderers on level 3 because the lawyer got it down to manslaughterJan 07 21:15
DaemonFCand the poor people who should have had 2nd degree murder, they get the public defenderJan 07 21:16
DaemonFCand end up on level 1Jan 07 21:16
_goblinnot just the lawyer (if it works like UK)Jan 07 21:16
_goblinheres what happens:Jan 07 21:16
_goblinCPS has a case which it has a 50 50 chance of getting a guilty verdict.....Jan 07 21:16
_goblinsuspect is pleading not guilty.Jan 07 21:16
DaemonFCso don't think the guy on level 4 is any less dangerous than the guy on level 1Jan 07 21:16
_goblinin order to get a result, its agreed that a lesser charge of manslaughter is pled guilty to.Jan 07 21:17
DaemonFCeven though he's less dangerous on paperJan 07 21:17
_goblinthe alternative would be....Jan 07 21:17
_goblinmurderer gets found not guilty.Jan 07 21:17
schestowitzKarateTiger: no, convictionsJan 07 21:17
schestowitzDo your homeworkJan 07 21:17
schestowitzKorea in 2009 for exampleJan 07 21:17
schestowitzTWICE even, in Korea, in one yearJan 07 21:17
DaemonFC_goblin: The prosecutor does it most often for lack of evidenceJan 07 21:18
schestowitz[21:12] <KarateTiger> Microsoft has never been "convicted" of monopolyJan 07 21:18
schestowitzLie.Jan 07 21:18
KarateTigeryou just googled that upJan 07 21:18
DaemonFCfor her it's a conviction, for the scumbag, he signs it so he doesn't get convicted of murderJan 07 21:18
*Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 21:18
DaemonFCit's bargaining over the punishment based on how strong the state thinks the case isJan 07 21:18
_goblintrue.. but better than a 50 50 case finding him not guiltyJan 07 21:18
_goblinif the case is loaded with evidence, then this would not happenJan 07 21:19
schestowitz*sigh*Jan 07 21:19
MinceRKarateTiger: should he have it binged it then? would that have matched your "tastes" better?Jan 07 21:19
schestowitzKarateTiger: I know what you're here forJan 07 21:19
schestowitzI'm not going to discuss this furtherJan 07 21:19
_goblinkarate?Jan 07 21:19
_goblin;)Jan 07 21:19
DaemonFCyou get manslaughter, you're locked up for 5 years and you go homeJan 07 21:19
DaemonFC(with 5 years suspended)Jan 07 21:19
_goblinmore than being found not guilty though.Jan 07 21:19
DaemonFCso it's barely a conviction, surely not what they deservedJan 07 21:20
_goblinand as I say, this kind of bargaining only happens in cases where a guilty verdict is not gauranteed.Jan 07 21:20
DaemonFCbut yes, it beats nothingJan 07 21:20
schestowitzhttp://insidesocal.com/click/2010/01/are-you-having-a-debian-key-is.htmlJan 07 21:20
_goblinlike I say if the evidence in concrete then it doesnt come into play.Jan 07 21:20
_goblina good brief will be able to pick able flaws in evidence such as continuity etc...Jan 07 21:21
*tessier is now known as turgidJan 07 21:21
*turgid is now known as tessierJan 07 21:21
*schestowitz thinks tessier made a joke in another channel :-)Jan 07 21:21
_goblinfor DUI in the UK, a procedure has to be exactly followed, otherwise the evidence can be dismissed.Jan 07 21:22
_goblina good brief would notice...Jan 07 21:22
KarateTigerI wouldn't call what Microsoft does "a crime"Jan 07 21:22
KarateTigerbundling their browser and media player in koreaJan 07 21:22
tessierIndeed I did. :)Jan 07 21:22
tessierBut I enjoy amusing the folks in other channels who aren't in on the joke.Jan 07 21:23
tessierThere is a guy with the nick "flaccid" in #django so I had to have a go at him.Jan 07 21:23
MinceRKarateTiger: that's kind of obvious you wouldn't, by now.Jan 07 21:23
KarateTigerAnd you do? *lol*Jan 07 21:24
MinceRwow, a brilliant argument often employed by m$ apologists: "lol"Jan 07 21:24
KarateTigerTell me you find the bundling of a media player and web browser a criminal offenceJan 07 21:25
MinceRit's a way m$ tries to use its (ill-gotten) dominance of the desktop OS market in order to eliminate competition in the media player and web browser markets.Jan 07 21:26
KarateTigerwhat market?Jan 07 21:26
KarateTigerThere is not marketJan 07 21:26
KarateTigerNobody sells media playersJan 07 21:26
MinceRthere won't be, if m$ has their wayJan 07 21:27
KarateTigerNobody selles Web browsersJan 07 21:27
MinceRwrongJan 07 21:27
MinceR1) selling licenses is not the only way to make money with such appsJan 07 21:27
schestowitzOpera makes moneyJan 07 21:27
MinceR2) opera does indeed sell web browsersJan 07 21:27
schestowitzMobiles for startersJan 07 21:27
KarateTigerlol yeah operaJan 07 21:27
MinceRhm, come to think of it, the license of IE requires a windows license, which isn't free of chargeJan 07 21:27
schestowitzoh noes! The channel became a confrontation with Microsoft apologistsJan 07 21:27
MinceRso in a way they do sell IE, tied with winblowsJan 07 21:28
KarateTigerNot bundling a browser with an OS, that's ridiculousJan 07 21:28
MinceRyeah, we were all laughing in the ninetiesJan 07 21:28
MinceRconstantlyJan 07 21:28
KarateTigerHow am I gonna download another browser from the web, when there isn't even one installed?Jan 07 21:28
MinceRand in the eightiesJan 07 21:29
_goblinI was just going to say that...Unless IE is going to be released for Linux...  Its a little like a free toy in a box of flakes.....you don't get the toy unless you buy the breakfast.Jan 07 21:29
MinceRftp? package manager? wget? install media?Jan 07 21:29
KarateTigerwget *lol*Jan 07 21:29
MinceRof course the thought of preinstalling multiple browsers is also unthinkableJan 07 21:29
KarateTigerYeah tell your grandma to wget http://mozilla.com/firefox.exeJan 07 21:29
phIRCe-localTitle: 404: Page Not Found .::. Size~: 16.71 KBJan 07 21:29
MinceRyeah, we all know my grandma is the only computer user in the worldJan 07 21:29
KarateTigerIt's not unthinkable, but it's not something very reasonableJan 07 21:30
MinceRyeah, if m$ isn't doing it then it can't be reasonable, can it?Jan 07 21:30
KarateTigerCome one, how many "normal" people do you know who know what ftp isJan 07 21:30
MinceRthat depends on how you define "normal"Jan 07 21:30
KarateTigerDoes your mother know what ftp is? Does she use a computer?Jan 07 21:30
_goblinoh dear....Jan 07 21:30
MinceRif she doesn't use a computer, does she need a web browser?Jan 07 21:30
*neighborlee has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Jan 07 21:31
KarateTigerMy point is, maybe she DOES use a computer and DESPITE using it, does not know what FTP isJan 07 21:31
_goblintheres the justification....."We at Microsoft should be able to do as we like, afterall its simple enough for Grandma"  - How does Grandma deal with an infected Windows platform?Jan 07 21:31
KarateTigerughJan 07 21:31
MinceRhm, there's of course an obvious way to choose a web browser to install without having one preinstalled -- m$ happens to be implementing it for winblows nowJan 07 21:31
KarateTigerYou guys are so single-mindedJan 07 21:31
MinceRbut i'm sure you haven't heard of itJan 07 21:31
_goblinWhat does Grandma do with a BSOD?Jan 07 21:31
MinceRno, she doesn't use a computerJan 07 21:32
KarateTigeryeah because they were forced to do itJan 07 21:32
KarateTigerNot that I'm not happy about itJan 07 21:32
MinceRi'm sure you aren'tJan 07 21:32
_goblinlol.Jan 07 21:32
KarateTigerBut the IE is the ExplorerJan 07 21:32
MinceRdo they pay you less now that they were forced to do that?Jan 07 21:32
KarateTigerAt least in partsJan 07 21:32
KarateTigerThe IE rendering engine is an integral part of the OSJan 07 21:32
MinceRyeah, tell that to the utilities that rip IE out of winblows install mediaJan 07 21:33
KarateTigerThe help system builds on itJan 07 21:33
MinceRand by magic still end up with explorerJan 07 21:33
KarateTigerMany programs use it (unfortunately)Jan 07 21:33
MinceRit's not the only rendering engine in the worldJan 07 21:33
MinceRthough it's the only m$html rendering engineJan 07 21:33
MinceRothers tend to be standards compliantJan 07 21:33
KarateTigeryeah but it's BUNDLED with the OSJan 07 21:33
MinceRi see how that might hurt youJan 07 21:33
MinceRyeah, that's the problemJan 07 21:33
KarateTigerSo I don't have to bundle a rendering engine with every application I deliverJan 07 21:33
MinceRhave you ever heard of shared libraries?Jan 07 21:34
MinceRi'm pretty sure even m$ knows about thoseJan 07 21:34
KarateTigeryeah, and I have lots of themJan 07 21:34
KarateTigerSo alright, there now are 10 different shared libraries on my system that all do the same thing: render htmlJan 07 21:34
schestowitzGrandma does not install WIndowsJan 07 21:34
schestowitzThe OEM doesJan 07 21:34
schestowitzMicrosoft blocked OEMs from installing NSJan 07 21:34
schestowitzOr giving it iconsJan 07 21:35
MinceRyeah, it would be so nice if there were no IT companies besides m$, wouldn't it?Jan 07 21:35
schestowitzDo some homeworkJan 07 21:35
MinceRwho needs a free market?Jan 07 21:35
MinceRwho needs competition?Jan 07 21:35
schestowitzBetter yet, KarateTiger, here is a pasttime for youJan 07 21:35
schestowitzhttp://en.digitalkamera.com/make-a-paper-tux-linux-penguin-in-less-than-15-minutesJan 07 21:35
phIRCe-localTitle:  Make a paper Tux Linux penguin in less than 15 minutes!! «  DigitalKamera .::. Size~: 23.65 KBJan 07 21:35
schestowitzCome back when you're doneJan 07 21:35
MinceRwho needs non-crap IT products?Jan 07 21:35
KarateTigerquestions over questionsJan 07 21:35
MinceRwhen you can have m$ hw that is broken more than half the time?Jan 07 21:35
MinceRand when you can have useless m$ crap software?Jan 07 21:35
schestowitzI love how Microsoft rewrites huistoryJan 07 21:36
KarateTigerwhat does that have to do with anythingJan 07 21:36
schestowitzTechnowaffle it's calledJan 07 21:36
MinceRif m$ products are so great, why do people want something else?Jan 07 21:36
schestowitzLike, "people need the OEMs to preinstall Windows"Jan 07 21:36
KarateTigerI'm not saying M$ makes great sofwareJan 07 21:36
KarateTigerIt mostly doesn'tJan 07 21:36
schestowitzBut looking back at documents, it's all nonsenseJan 07 21:36
_goblinlolJan 07 21:36
MinceRyou're saying that others shouldn't have the chance to compete with m$Jan 07 21:36
schestowitzMicrosoft invented this later as an excuseJan 07 21:36
KarateTigerBut they damn sure should be able to couple their crappy Media Player and their crappy Browser with their crappy OSJan 07 21:36
MinceRyou're saying that a m$ monopoly should be forced over softwareJan 07 21:37
MinceRno they shouldn'tJan 07 21:37
MinceRand they shouldn't even be able to foist their crap OS on anyoneJan 07 21:37
schestowitzMinceR: he'd go forever. Won't give upJan 07 21:37
MinceRschestowitz: well, kickban him, then.Jan 07 21:37
schestowitzDyed in the wool, indoctrinatingJan 07 21:37
schestowitzIt started by calling RMS "radical"Jan 07 21:37
KarateTigerlolJan 07 21:37
KarateTigereven torvalds called rms a radicalJan 07 21:38
schestowitzI gave him the benefit of the doubt and asked for explanationsJan 07 21:38
*schestowitz back to some important thingsJan 07 21:38
KarateTigeryeah you did all you couldJan 07 21:38
trmancohttp://www.informationweek.com/news/security/app-security/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222200556Jan 07 21:38
phIRCe-localTitle: Red Hat CEO On Recession, Virtualization, Ballmer -- Enterprise Linux -- InformationWeek .::. Size~: 80.31 KBJan 07 21:39
KarateTigerBut now it's obviousJan 07 21:39
schestowitzhttp://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/RawTherapee-3-0-Alpha-1-released-under-GPL-license-896214.htmlJan 07 21:39
phIRCe-localTitle: RawTherapee 3.0 Alpha 1 released under GPL license - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.07 KBJan 07 21:39
KarateTigerSomebody has a different opinion and therefore MUST be a trollJan 07 21:39
schestowitzIn this channel it isJan 07 21:39
MinceRKarateTiger: you forgot to cover your ears and sing "lalalalala i can't hear you!"Jan 07 21:39
schestowitzI don't go to WIndows channels to call Ballmer a gangster that should be imprisonedJan 07 21:39
MinceRprisons are too good for that asshole thoughJan 07 21:40
KarateTigerI wouldn't be so sure about thatJan 07 21:40
_goblinNo karatetiger: I have a different opinion on many subjects here.Jan 07 21:40
KarateTigerAlso, I didn't call for the imprisonment of anybodyJan 07 21:40
MinceRKarateTiger: you surely must be a saint thenJan 07 21:40
KarateTigerUhJan 07 21:40
KarateTigeryeahJan 07 21:40
KarateTigerYou knowJan 07 21:40
KarateTigerTalking to you sucksJan 07 21:40
_goblinlolJan 07 21:40
MinceRKarateTiger: don't do it, then.Jan 07 21:40
_goblindid it take you long to think up that witty come back Karatetiger?Jan 07 21:41
KarateTigeragreedJan 07 21:41
MinceRi think he looked it up in the m$ trolling manualJan 07 21:41
KarateTigerCome onJan 07 21:41
KarateTiger"KarateTiger: you surely must be a saint then" what the fuck is thatJan 07 21:41
MinceRoh wait, they call it "evangelism", not "trolling"Jan 07 21:41
KarateTigeryeah yeah I'm an M$ trollJan 07 21:42
KarateTigerget over itJan 07 21:42
_goblinI don't think you are.Jan 07 21:42
MinceRwe all know, no need to reiterate.Jan 07 21:42
schestowitzSurveys: IT job satisfaction plummets to all-time low http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9143194/Surveys_IT_job_satisfaction_plummets_to_all_time_low Jan 07 21:42
phIRCe-localTitle:  Surveys: IT job satisfaction plummets to all-time low .::. Size~: 126.56 KBJan 07 21:42
_goblinI don't believe for one minute MS would pay for rubbish like KarateTigers "arguments"Jan 07 21:42
MinceRwell, i know mine did plummet to an all-time lowJan 07 21:42
MinceR_goblin: maybe he's doing it as a hobbyJan 07 21:43
_goblinthats frightening.....Jan 07 21:43
MinceRor for future hopes of being employed at a not-yet-bankrupt m$Jan 07 21:43
_goblinMVP!!!!!!Jan 07 21:43
tessierschestowitz: Seems like with the economy how it is nearly all job satisfaction would have fallenJan 07 21:43
KarateTigerughJan 07 21:43
schestowitzI knowJan 07 21:43
MinceRlike de icaza didJan 07 21:43
schestowitztessier: surveys.... lies, damn lies...Jan 07 21:43
KarateTigerYou don't seem to be able to think in any other colors than black or whiteJan 07 21:43
_goblinwho?Jan 07 21:44
KarateTigerMincerJan 07 21:44
_goblinI would challenge that...Jan 07 21:44
_goblinif you behave like an adult, you usually get the same back in kind.Jan 07 21:44
MinceRKarateTiger: just because i see black as black and white as black doesn't mean i'm not aware of the range in betweenJan 07 21:44
KarateTigerBut it's okay, that will make it easier for you to order the world into things you approve of and things you disagree withJan 07 21:44
_goblinits called opinion...Jan 07 21:45
MinceRKarateTiger: m$ makes it easy for me to disapprove of everything they doJan 07 21:45
MinceRnothing they do is defensible from either an ethical or a technical viewpointJan 07 21:45
KarateTigerYeah, they're the Israel of Software CompaniesJan 07 21:45
_goblinKaratetiger: Can you honestly say that MS doesnt have a problem when only in the last few weeks we read about the Plurk incident?Jan 07 21:45
_goblinIts not MS products I have a problem with, its MS behaviour and tacticsJan 07 21:46
MinceRisrael is an entirely separate issue, afaikJan 07 21:46
KarateTigerWhen did I say they don't have any problems?Jan 07 21:46
MinceRyou said they should be allowed to bundle apps to leverage their near monopoly to destroy competition in other marketsJan 07 21:46
_goblinYou didn't but IMO you are trying to imply MS as a victim of "black and white thinking" users here.Jan 07 21:46
KarateTigerNo, I only said they should be able to bundle a web browser and a media playerJan 07 21:46
MinceRyou also claimed that m$ was never convicted of monopolismJan 07 21:46
KarateTigerAlso, their software is so crappy, they SUPPORT the competitionJan 07 21:47
MinceR224637 < KarateTiger> No, I only said they should be able to bundle a web browser and a media playerJan 07 21:47
MinceRwhich is exactly what i saidJan 07 21:47
KarateTigerI mean, Windows Media Player couldn't even play DVDs up until VistaJan 07 21:47
_goblinPlease don't mention the V wordJan 07 21:47
MinceRand no, making OEM deals forcing users to pay the m$ tax no matter what is not supporting the competitionJan 07 21:47
KarateTigerMinceR: See, that's what your problem isJan 07 21:47
_goblinI get flashbacksJan 07 21:47
MinceRbreaking open standards so that only their products can be used to access data and services is not supporting the competition either.Jan 07 21:48
KarateTigerYou added your "opionion" on top of what I saidJan 07 21:48
MinceRbribing governments to destroy competition is not supporting competition either.Jan 07 21:48
KarateTigerI didn't call for the destruction of any competitionJan 07 21:48
MinceRKarateTiger: no, i added "facts" on top of the scarce "facts" you mentioned.Jan 07 21:48
_goblinlets also not forget about the retail training slides MS put out to electrical stores....Jan 07 21:48
KarateTigerlets just forget about "facts"Jan 07 21:48
MinceRyeah, let'sJan 07 21:49
tessierFacts are overrated.Jan 07 21:49
_goblinyes MS likes doing that.Jan 07 21:49
MinceRlike you m$ apologists do all the timeJan 07 21:49
_goblinor even simpler just blame someone else...Jan 07 21:49
tessierWhy would anyone come in here trying to make a case for a convicted monopolist?Jan 07 21:49
KarateTigerlol, that term againJan 07 21:49
MinceRto get attentionJan 07 21:49
tessierI can only theorize they see Windows as almost their way of life, especially if it their job.Jan 07 21:49
KarateTigerIt's like "convicted rapist"Jan 07 21:49
tessierKarateTiger: There is a difference between a rapist and a convicted rapist isn't there?Jan 07 21:50
MinceR'lol, they were found guilty -- who cares?'Jan 07 21:50
KarateTigerJust because some court ruled that the market leader couldn't have a web browser in their product...Jan 07 21:50
tessierKarateTiger: And that they abused their position and violated anti-trust laws...Jan 07 21:50
KarateTigerYou know, it always dependsJan 07 21:50
MinceRyeah, the court's sentence only matters if it supports m$'s positionJan 07 21:50
MinceRjust ignore it otherwiseJan 07 21:51
tessierIt isn't that they couldn't have the browser. It is how they went about it.Jan 07 21:51
MinceRalso, if you get to settle, call it a victoryJan 07 21:51
tessierThey swore up and down that it coudln't be removed.Jan 07 21:51
KarateTigerI'm pretty sure there are convicted rapists where I wouldn't approve of the sentencingJan 07 21:51
tessierNow guess what? They have removed it!Jan 07 21:51
MinceRi'm pretty sure m$ is not the only criminal organization whose actions you approve ofJan 07 21:51
KarateTigerughJan 07 21:51
KarateTigerYou're so up your ass with your opinion it's horribleJan 07 21:51
_goblinKarateTiger: and I bet the EU has a few new treats in store for MS in the near future.Jan 07 21:51
MinceRKarateTiger: it's called "fact"Jan 07 21:52
KarateTigerlolJan 07 21:52
MinceRKarateTiger: learn that word, it's importantJan 07 21:52
KarateTigerYeah IT ARE FACT that microsoft are a CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION, on par with the Cosa Nostra even!Jan 07 21:52
MinceR"opinion" supports both sides here. "facts" don't.Jan 07 21:52
MinceRimportant difference. :>Jan 07 21:52
MinceRyeah, guess what, an organization whose main operation is crime is a criminal organizationJan 07 21:53
_goblinKarateTiger: Forget about your views and anyone elses for a minute.  Why do you think MS comes under so much fire?  What do you think the reason is?Jan 07 21:53
MinceRwho would have guessed?Jan 07 21:53
KarateTigerBecause they fucking suckJan 07 21:53
tessierKarateTiger: Microsoft has cost society more than Cosa Nostra I would guess.Jan 07 21:53
MinceR_goblin: obviously, people are jealous of the vast riches they've righteously gained, some of which will soon go KarateTiger's way!Jan 07 21:53
tessierCosa Nostra was never worth hundreds of billions afaikJan 07 21:53
KarateTigerAnd everybody has to put up with their shitJan 07 21:53
KarateTigerSo naturally people are pissedJan 07 21:53
_goblinreally?Jan 07 21:54
MinceRKarateTiger: why do we have to put up with their shit?Jan 07 21:54
_goblinso why now karatetiger is MS getting more flak than ever before?Jan 07 21:54
_goblinDo we see Google come under the same fire?Jan 07 21:54
KarateTigerI don't know, people jump on the bandwagonJan 07 21:54
_goblinWhat about Nintendo?Jan 07 21:54
_goblinah....the bandwagon....Jan 07 21:54
tessierI'm just glad to see the end of Windows on the horizon. Finally. WinCE is dead. MIPS/ARM cpus are coming. Mobile devices are taking over. The PC is going away...slowly.Jan 07 21:55
_goblinwhats that then?Jan 07 21:55
KarateTigerNintendo hardly has a monopolyJan 07 21:55
KarateTigerGoogle hasJan 07 21:55
MinceRthe "bandwagon" that just appeared out of thin airJan 07 21:55
MinceRwithout reason!Jan 07 21:55
MinceRi know if i see a bandwagon, i jump on it!Jan 07 21:55
_goblinEr Nintendo does in Japan....i beleiveJan 07 21:55
KarateTigerNot without reasonJan 07 21:55
tessierKarateTiger: Having a monopoly is not illegal. Acting to maintain it is.Jan 07 21:55
MinceRthe more the better!Jan 07 21:55
KarateTigerThere are many reasons not to like M$ and their productsJan 07 21:55
_goblinso this bandwagon, why is it against MS?Jan 07 21:55
MinceRindeed there areJan 07 21:55
tessierKarateTiger: Google does nothing to prevent me from building a competing service. Jan 07 21:55
KarateTigerBut you make some kind of ideologic imperative out of itJan 07 21:56
_goblinkaratetiger: Why?Jan 07 21:56
tessierAnyone can spider the web and make a search engine.Jan 07 21:56
MinceRlike i said earlier,Jan 07 21:56
MinceR224502 < MinceR> nothing they do is defensible from either an ethical or a technical viewpointJan 07 21:56
_goblinKaratetiger: What are the reasons to dislike MS and its products?Jan 07 21:56
KarateTigertessier: No...! Google just BUYS you.Jan 07 21:56
MinceRhm, and m$ doesn't?Jan 07 21:56
_goblinKaratetiger: What are the reasons to dislike MS and its products?Jan 07 21:56
MinceRi wonder what happened to yahooJan 07 21:56
KarateTigerM$ probably sues you first, cause they're assholesJan 07 21:57
KarateTigeridkJan 07 21:57
KarateTiger_goblin: Mundane reasonsJan 07 21:57
KarateTiger"shit doesn't work"Jan 07 21:57
KarateTigerBut that isn't specific to MicrosoftJan 07 21:57
MinceRand being forced to use even more of the same shit is not a "mundane" reason?Jan 07 21:58
_goblinSo KarateTiger: If, in your own words MS products suck and MS are assholes (your words) why do you have a problem with MinceR?  Your views are definately black and white.Jan 07 21:58
KarateTigerIt's not like there's some great alternativeJan 07 21:58
MinceRhaving your favored non-shit go away because m$ made business impossible for them is not a "mundane" reason?Jan 07 21:58
_goblinInfact you agree with MincerJan 07 21:58
KarateTigerIt's not just businessJan 07 21:58
KarateTigerIt's not just Microsoft using their perceived monopolyJan 07 21:59
MinceRhaving some websites not work well with your favored non-shit browser because m$ foisted IE over people is not a "mundane" reason?Jan 07 21:59
_goblinKarateTiger: Yes there is, we have found it.  Otherwise we would do what you do and just winge about a product we have to use.Jan 07 21:59
_goblinlolJan 07 21:59
_goblinIts not just MS....Jan 07 21:59
MinceR"equally evil", right?Jan 07 21:59
_goblinhow many times have we heard that....Jan 07 21:59
_goblinits not just MS, so its ok....Jan 07 21:59
KarateTigerNo, the problem is there is no other product that does what windows doesJan 07 22:00
KarateTigerSure, there are macs, but they're much more expensiveJan 07 22:00
KarateTigerSure, there is linux, but linux has other drawbacksJan 07 22:00
MinceRdepends on what is "what windows does"Jan 07 22:01
_goblinOfficer - "Sir, you are driving under the influence of alcohol"  Man - "But other people do it...."  Officer - "ok then son on your way....we'll just forget about it"Jan 07 22:01
MinceRif it's 'waste resources and open backdoors on the system' then indeed not many OSes do thatJan 07 22:01
KarateTigerWindows delivers a more or less complete solutionJan 07 22:01
MinceRsolution to what?Jan 07 22:01
MinceRballmer's financial problems?Jan 07 22:01
_goblina garbage solutionJan 07 22:01
KarateTigeralrightJan 07 22:01
KarateTigerI don't know how many of you actually work in companies who use computersJan 07 22:02
MinceRor the 'whatever should i do with this overpowered computer to make it nicely slow' problem?Jan 07 22:02
MinceRi think another punchline is comingJan 07 22:02
MinceRso far i've worked for 2 companies where they used GNU/LinuxJan 07 22:02
MinceRone of them used it almost exclusivelyJan 07 22:02
KarateTigerWellJan 07 22:02
MinceRs/used/uses/Jan 07 22:02
KarateTigerand what do they do?Jan 07 22:03
MinceRsoftware developmentJan 07 22:03
KarateTigerahaJan 07 22:03
KarateTigerbig supriseJan 07 22:03
MinceRyeah, big surprise: i happen to know what i'm talking aboutJan 07 22:03
KarateTigerWell I used to work at a press sales companyJan 07 22:04
KarateTigerYou know what they useJan 07 22:04
KarateTigerDOSJan 07 22:04
KarateTigerDBASEIVJan 07 22:05
KarateTigerWindows 98Jan 07 22:05
KarateTigerWindows XPJan 07 22:05
MinceRyou know in a way i much prefer m$-dos to winblowsJan 07 22:05
MinceRit does a lot less so it fails at a lot lessJan 07 22:05
MinceRand you can replace it with freedos now :>Jan 07 22:05
KarateTigerYou know what it costs them to have a few lines of code changed in their software that operates their machinesJan 07 22:05
KarateTigerthousands of dollarsJan 07 22:05
MinceRso?Jan 07 22:05
KarateTigerIt is still cheaper than switching completelyJan 07 22:06
KarateTigerand starting from scratchJan 07 22:06
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[popey] I can watch "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it", and my own wife give birth, but I can't watch TV Drama surgery. Such a strange wuss I am. #fbJan 07 22:06
KarateTigerThe reason why microsoft dominates the market, is because of the IBM PCJan 07 22:06
MinceRnot exactlyJan 07 22:06
KarateTigerIf anything, you should blame IBMJan 07 22:06
MinceRit's because of their early deals with (neglectful) IBMJan 07 22:06
*Ender2070 has quit ("Konversation terminated!")Jan 07 22:07
MinceRi do blame IBM, but they don't deserve as much blame as m$ doesJan 07 22:07
KarateTigerand good deals they whereJan 07 22:07
MinceRfor whom?Jan 07 22:07
KarateTigerFor MicrosoftJan 07 22:07
MinceRexactlyJan 07 22:07
MinceRnot for anyone elseJan 07 22:07
KarateTigerIt could have been any companyJan 07 22:07
schestowitzGoogle never stomped on BaiduJan 07 22:07
_goblinKarateTiger: Can you please enlighten me to your point.  You say MS are arseholes and their products suck...yet you blame a 3rd party and claim MS offers a complete solution....if (as you say MS products are rubbish) then that doesnt sound very complete to me....maybe you can help me here?Jan 07 22:07
MinceRit could have been DRI, and we'd already be better offJan 07 22:07
schestowitzANd Baidu got itself a good 'niche' (China)Jan 07 22:07
KarateTigeryes Microsoft does offer a complete solutionJan 07 22:08
MinceRi think the key phrase is "Complete Rubbish Solution"Jan 07 22:08
MinceR:>Jan 07 22:08
*schestowitz catches up with old conversationsJan 07 22:08
KarateTigerFor a businessJan 07 22:08
KarateTigerfor a normal business, not a software development companyJan 07 22:08
_goblinkaratetiger: But you say their products are rubbish....I don't understand, how can that be complete?Jan 07 22:08
MinceRbtw that company could probably move to dosbox and wine over GNU/Linux and then move the sw to native (and portable) graduallyJan 07 22:08
KarateTigerFirst of all, not all of their products are badJan 07 22:09
schestowitz_goblin: it's an old lineJan 07 22:09
MinceRi wonder what they'll do if those dos pc-s breakJan 07 22:09
_goblinyou didnt say that karatetigerJan 07 22:09
schestowitzPretend to be anti-Microsoft, but don'tJan 07 22:09
schestowitzI see it in COLA and BN a lotJan 07 22:09
KarateTigerand second of all, even though they suck, it's usually the most painless way to stick with itJan 07 22:09
_goblinwhich products ARE rubbish then Karatetiger?Jan 07 22:09
schestowitz"Don't get me wrong, Microsoft's products suck, but"Jan 07 22:09
_goblinlolJan 07 22:09
schestowitzit gives credibility to the messengerJan 07 22:09
_goblinI use Linux but......Jan 07 22:09
KarateTigerI never used the word "rubbish"Jan 07 22:09
_goblinno you said suckJan 07 22:09
_goblinthats worse in my bookJan 07 22:09
_goblinmaybe (as I say) you can explainJan 07 22:10
MinceRmaybe he used "suck" affectionatelyJan 07 22:10
MinceR:>Jan 07 22:10
_goblinwhat about blow?Jan 07 22:10
MinceRlolJan 07 22:10
_goblinis that worse or better?Jan 07 22:10
schestowitz_goblin: their products suck an blowJan 07 22:10
schestowitz*andJan 07 22:10
KarateTigerI'd rather say what doesn't suckJan 07 22:10
_goblinive never read such a load of tot in my life.Jan 07 22:10
KarateTigerVisual StudioJan 07 22:10
MinceRlolJan 07 22:10
MinceRvisual studio sucks like a black holeJan 07 22:10
schestowitzThat's what makes them so orgasmic to KarateTiger :-)Jan 07 22:11
KarateTigerMeh... no it doesn'tJan 07 22:11
_goblinor blows like a white hole?Jan 07 22:11
KarateTigerIt's a good productJan 07 22:11
MinceRit's good if you have the case and the cdJan 07 22:11
MinceRit's good to have when your table tiltsJan 07 22:11
_goblintheory from RedDwarf - Black hole sucks matter from the universe, white hole spits it back.Jan 07 22:11
MinceRor when you need to wedge the office door openJan 07 22:11
schestowitz_goblin: wormhole ends?Jan 07 22:12
_goblini suppose....in a Dave Lister sort of way.Jan 07 22:12
schestowitzMaybe the universe if curvedJan 07 22:12
KarateTigeralright, so what's the open source alternative? Eclipse? alright, but that didn't even exist when Visual Studio was already good. But of course, a real l33t hacker uses only emacs...Jan 07 22:12
schestowitzIn fact, maybe new stars are born somewhere when others get sucked into  holeJan 07 22:12
_goblinKarateTiger: Im asking what MS products suck.....Jan 07 22:12
_goblinKarateTiger: (your words)Jan 07 22:12
KarateTigerMan, they have so many it's hard to list them allJan 07 22:13
KarateTigeralso, why do I need to?Jan 07 22:13
MinceR[g]vim, gnu make and the command line?Jan 07 22:13
_goblinKarateTiger: lolJan 07 22:13
schestowitzmatter like gas sticking together by gravityJan 07 22:13
KarateTigerAnd I haven't even used the majority of themJan 07 22:13
MinceRoh, and gdbJan 07 22:13
_goblinKarateTiger: you don't need to, its merely most adults when debating like to justify their opinions.Jan 07 22:13
MinceRm$ apologists aren't adults thoughJan 07 22:13
schestowitzMicrosoft makes no productsJan 07 22:13
schestowitzIt writes 0s and 1sJan 07 22:13
KarateTigerlol vimJan 07 22:13
schestowitzCompanies like Foxconn make productsJan 07 22:13
KarateTigerYou develop software with vim?Jan 07 22:14
KarateTigerWhat the fuck?Jan 07 22:14
MinceRyeah, just laugh at the best text editor in the worldJan 07 22:14
MinceRit did more than the craptastic editor in VS ever willJan 07 22:14
KarateTigerman, STALLMAN laughs at vimJan 07 22:14
schestowitziMacs?Jan 07 22:14
schestowitzGNU iMacs?Jan 07 22:14
MinceRthere's a choice, he prefers emacsJan 07 22:14
MinceRand it's fine by meJan 07 22:14
KarateTigerlolJan 07 22:14
schestowitzGive it to Asay, to replace MS Office withJan 07 22:14
KarateTigervim is NOTHINGJan 07 22:14
schestowitzHe's a Microsoft Office fankidJan 07 22:14
MinceRi think we awakened the ballmer in KarateTiger Jan 07 22:14
_goblinhide the chairsJan 07 22:15
MinceRKarateTiger: aren't you a bit insecure about vim?Jan 07 22:15
_goblinand for gods sake dont let him on stageJan 07 22:15
KarateTigerI really don't know what you people do with you computersJan 07 22:15
MinceRwe use themJan 07 22:15
KarateTigerProbably all you do is ComputersJan 07 22:15
MinceRwhile you reboot all dayJan 07 22:15
KarateTigeryeah, for doing computer stuffJan 07 22:15
MinceRand install updates, and reinstall winblows when it gets too slowJan 07 22:15
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_goblinkaratetiger: Evidently more than you, since you still havent said what sucks or why MS are arseholes (your words)Jan 07 22:15
schestowitzMinceR: WIndows doesn't rebootJan 07 22:15
schestowitzIt takes restsJan 07 22:16
MinceRwindows update does reboot itJan 07 22:16
schestowitzLike MacsJan 07 22:16
MinceRalso, it reboots to hide BSODs by defaultJan 07 22:16
MinceR"see, no BSOD!"Jan 07 22:16
schestowitzIt protects the computer from the userJan 07 22:16
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KarateTigerHave you noticed, I never make fun of you guys for using vi or stuff like thatJan 07 22:16
MinceRhmJan 07 22:16
MinceR231423 < KarateTiger> lolJan 07 22:16
MinceR231426 < KarateTiger> vim is NOTHINGJan 07 22:16
MinceRyou forget quicklyJan 07 22:16
KarateTigeryeah, up UNTIL you said viJan 07 22:16
_goblinKaratetiger: I assure you, you are not making fun of anyone here.Jan 07 22:16
KarateTigercome on viJan 07 22:16
KarateTigerthat is ridiculous manJan 07 22:16
MinceRi guess it's kind of required for m$ apologistsJan 07 22:16
MinceRKarateTiger: vim, not viJan 07 22:16
MinceRif you had a clue, you'd know the differenceJan 07 22:17
oiaohmhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nzg2NA  Focus is in X11 is now going back to the old flashy stuff.Jan 07 22:17
phIRCe-localTitle: [Phoronix] DMX2 Bits For X.Org Server To Move Forward .::. Size~: 16 KBJan 07 22:17
KarateTigeroh yeah vim is the improved version where you can click thingsJan 07 22:17
oiaohmKarateTiger: I use kdevelop and kate.Jan 07 22:17
MinceRyeah, to winblows-addicted retards the only thing that is noticeable is that "you can click things"Jan 07 22:17
oiaohmLot of Linux people don't touch vim or emacsJan 07 22:17
MinceRnevermind that vim can run in a text-only terminalJan 07 22:18
_goblinYeah I dont....Jan 07 22:18
_goblinI use a Wine and MS notepad combo ;)Jan 07 22:18
oiaohmYet vim and emacs macros do have there place for major code reforms that nothing else would cope with.Jan 07 22:18
oiaohmPeople like to forget that both vim and emacs have been ported to windows.Jan 07 22:19
MinceRfunny enough, i got to know both emacs and vim on winblows firstJan 07 22:20
KarateTigermost gnu programs run on windows anywayJan 07 22:20
oiaohmSo any stupid fool attacking Linux or Unix over either.  Is indirectly attacking lot of Windows developers.Jan 07 22:20
KarateTigerone way or anotherJan 07 22:20
oiaohmIncluding 4 that work on the Windows kernel KarateTigerJan 07 22:20
KarateTigerI'm not attacking LinuxJan 07 22:20
_goblinlolJan 07 22:20
_goblinbut......Jan 07 22:21
oiaohm4 of the windows kernel lead developers use it.Jan 07 22:21
MinceRsomeone still touches the winblows kernel now?Jan 07 22:21
KarateTigerI'm just making fun of vimJan 07 22:21
oiaohmvim has it place KarateTigerJan 07 22:21
MinceRKarateTiger: you were recently.Jan 07 22:21
oiaohmCode reforming Jan 07 22:21
KarateTigerquoteJan 07 22:21
oiaohmNow using a tool for what it not good at is insanity.Jan 07 22:21
MinceR231423 < KarateTiger> lolJan 07 22:21
MinceR231426 < KarateTiger> vim is NOTHINGJan 07 22:21
MinceR231710 < KarateTiger> oh yeah vim is the improved version where you can click thingsJan 07 22:22
_goblinlolJan 07 22:22
MinceRno more quotes about this.Jan 07 22:22
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KarateTigerhow is that making fun of Linux?Jan 07 22:22
_goblin"My name is Doctor Hildegarde Lanstrom and I am quite, quite mad"Jan 07 22:22
MinceRit's making fun of vimJan 07 22:22
KarateTigerYeah I admit I made fun of vim, maybe you should read carefully what I postJan 07 22:22
oiaohmMinceR:  the recent lock correction in the windows 7 kernel kinda need vim.Jan 07 22:23
oiaohmOr emacsJan 07 22:23
MinceRor a brick of C4Jan 07 22:23
MinceRand fresh *bsd sourcesJan 07 22:23
oiaohmVisual studio is still not as good at code reforming as either vim or emacs.Jan 07 22:23
MinceR...or just a white flag and a gnu/linux installerJan 07 22:23
oiaohmKarateTiger: the point you miss is what vi and emacs was designed to do.  vi was designed to be a lighter tool with most of the power of emacsJan 07 22:24
MinceRemacs is an operating system that lacked a good editor, until viper was writtenJan 07 22:25
KarateTigerYeah :whateverJan 07 22:25
MinceRvim is a text editor with more power than any otherJan 07 22:25
KarateTigerYeah, it's a text editor+Jan 07 22:25
KarateTigerNot an IDEJan 07 22:25
MinceRand you can't develop without an IDE?Jan 07 22:26
MinceRcan't switch windows while developing software?Jan 07 22:26
KarateTigerI don't want to, honestlyJan 07 22:26
oiaohmvim is highly macroable it can function as a IDE if setup as such KarateTigerJan 07 22:26
MinceRperhaps your window manager isn't up to the task?Jan 07 22:26
MinceRthe one built into windows is indeed kind of lameJan 07 22:26
oiaohmOf course only a text base IDE. KarateTigerJan 07 22:26
MinceRin any case, vim can be given most (or all?) the functionality of an IDE with pluginsJan 07 22:27
oiaohmSome tasks like design servers you don't have a graphically any how.Jan 07 22:27
MinceRand eclipse can be made to use vim as its editorJan 07 22:27
KarateTigerAlright I admit I haven't used it to that depthJan 07 22:27
MinceRwe could tellJan 07 22:27
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Why people pay the Apple premium http://is.gd/5SvGP "Oh, so *this* is how a touchscreen is supposed to work."Jan 07 22:27
phIRCe-localTitle: QuirksBlog: A basic usability test on ten phones .::. Size~: 47.18 KBJan 07 22:27
KarateTigerYeah but i still prefer an IDEJan 07 22:27
_goblinReally?  We couldn't tell ;)Jan 07 22:27
MinceRm$ apologists like to talk down to unix features and tools they don't even knowJan 07 22:27
MinceRif they knew, they wouldn't be m$ apologistsJan 07 22:28
KarateTigerI still doubt it does everything that an IDE doesJan 07 22:28
oiaohmKarateTiger: I perfer graphical menus.Jan 07 22:28
oiaohmKarateTiger: VIM can do everything that is required to be IDE.Jan 07 22:28
oiaohmIntergrated Development Enviroment requirements are simple.Jan 07 22:28
KarateTigerCan it display two different sizes of fonts?Jan 07 22:28
_goblinSo to summarize we have KarateTiger who think MS are arseholes, thinks their products suck (although won't say which ones) and then admits to trying to argue about a package he doesn't really know.....now we see why I say Microsoft wouldn't pay for that type of rubbish.Jan 07 22:29
oiaohmFont display is not a requirement for a IDE KarateTigerJan 07 22:29
KarateTigerMaybe notJan 07 22:29
KarateTigerFor wheels aren't a requirement for a carJan 07 22:29
oiaohmRequirements for a IDE is write code,  maintaine make system.  Build binary, run binary and process debuging.Jan 07 22:30
MinceRhm, if displaying multiple font sizes is what defines an IDE, i have a splendid IDE for you. it's called AbiWord. :>Jan 07 22:30
oiaohmThat is the requirements of a IDE VIM can do them all KarateTigerJan 07 22:30
MinceRanother is called Mozilla Firefox.Jan 07 22:30
KarateTigerdoes it do all the type checking and stuff, while I'm editing?Jan 07 22:30
MinceRyou retry until you get the keywords right? :>Jan 07 22:31
KarateTigerYou never make mistakes?Jan 07 22:31
MinceRwell, i guess syntax highlighting could be construed as suchJan 07 22:31
MinceRand there's omnicompletionJan 07 22:31
oiaohmKarateTiger: type checking is not a requirement to be a IDE.  But VIM macros support that.Jan 07 22:31
MinceRi rarely make mistakesJan 07 22:31
MinceRand the compiler does type checking too :>Jan 07 22:32
KarateTigeryeah but then you have to buildJan 07 22:32
KarateTigertype checking also means that you don't have to complete what you typeJan 07 22:33
oiaohmVIM can check without building  KarateTiger  it not possiable to syntax highlight without doing a percentage of type checking.Jan 07 22:33
MinceRthat's what omnicompletion is forJan 07 22:33
oiaohmEven VI can syntax highlight.  VIM takes it to a completely new levels.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:34
KarateTigerHmm alrightJan 07 22:34
KarateTigerDoes it render Helvetica?Jan 07 22:34
oiaohmWhat does fonts have to do with it.Jan 07 22:34
*MinceR initiates the Helvetica ScenarioJan 07 22:34
_goblin.....Ive lost the will to live.Jan 07 22:34
KarateTigerI like HelveticaJan 07 22:35
_goblinIm going for a smoke and then to flush my head down the toilet.....KarateTiger might start making sense then.Jan 07 22:35
oiaohmLinux Xterms can render text in what ever font you like KarateTigerJan 07 22:35
MinceRThe Helvetica Scenario >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY7XH2ulTEUJan 07 22:35
oiaohmIe text base applications don't need to care about fonts on Unix and Linux based OS's its not there job. KarateTigerJan 07 22:36
oiaohmThey are not Graphical IDE's.  People love to forget text base ides existed.Jan 07 22:36
oiaohmBorland and MS first IDE's were text based.Jan 07 22:37
KarateTigeryeah I guessJan 07 22:38
KarateTigerAlright you winJan 07 22:38
KarateTigerClearly linux is superior in every way, and the only thing that stands in its way is the Microsoft monopoly, MincerJan 07 22:39
KarateTigerand maybe the smugness of its userbaseJan 07 22:39
MinceRnopeJan 07 22:39
KarateTiger*some of itJan 07 22:39
MinceRthe OS-es in whose way stands the smugness of its userbase are the *bsd-s and macosJan 07 22:40
MinceRand maybe winblowsJan 07 22:40
MinceRs/its/their/; s/base/bases/Jan 07 22:40
KarateTigerWindows users are humbleJan 07 22:40
KarateTigerthey know sufferingJan 07 22:40
MinceRyes, we can tellJan 07 22:40
MinceRyou being the prime exampleJan 07 22:40
KarateTigerI didn't praise windowsJan 07 22:40
KarateTigerBut somebody has to defend the fat little kid everyone picks at in schoolJan 07 22:41
MinceRthe fat little kid being ballmer?Jan 07 22:41
KarateTigersure he's fatJan 07 22:41
KarateTigerand maybe he's an assholeJan 07 22:41
oiaohmReally nothing stands in Linux path.Jan 07 22:41
KarateTigerBut deep in his heart, he only seeks acceptanceJan 07 22:41
MinceRnot reallyJan 07 22:41
oiaohmMS does not really have a OS on ARM that works well.Jan 07 22:41
MinceRhe only seeks profits at all costs -- and if everyone else has to be turned into a slave, that's fine by himJan 07 22:42
KarateTigerand you expect arm to take over the desktop?Jan 07 22:42
MinceRm$ does not really have an OS on any platform that works wellJan 07 22:42
oiaohmLet alone some of the high power CPU designs that x86 chips look like crap. KarateTigerJan 07 22:42
MinceRbut "working well" is not a requirement anymoreJan 07 22:42
oiaohmOk working well really do you class windows ce as working ?Jan 07 22:42
KarateTigeralright, but all the software people use is on x86 right nowJan 07 22:42
MinceRreally?Jan 07 22:42
*PeterKraus has quit ("Leaving")Jan 07 22:43
KarateTigerIt's not like x86 is superior technologyJan 07 22:43
MinceRwhat CPU does the software that runs your mobile phone run on?Jan 07 22:43
oiaohmDo you use a mobile phone KarateTigerJan 07 22:43
MinceRdo you use a router at home?Jan 07 22:43
oiaohmIf you are you are using software running on arm.Jan 07 22:43
oiaohmMost dsl modems are arm.Jan 07 22:43
KarateTigerYeah, but I don't use it to do any real workJan 07 22:43
MinceRdefine 'real work'Jan 07 22:43
KarateTigermy workJan 07 22:44
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jan 07 22:44
oiaohmAny ideas why phones don't run x86 KarateTigerJan 07 22:44
MinceRdoes the company you work for use mobile phones?Jan 07 22:44
KarateTigerwhat kind of a stupid example is that, mobile phones?Jan 07 22:44
MinceR234232 < KarateTiger> alright, but all the software people use is on x86 right nowJan 07 22:44
KarateTigerI'm talking about the desktopJan 07 22:44
MinceRi see no 'real work' criterion hereJan 07 22:44
oiaohmx86 eats power like like plague.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:44
MinceRi see no mention of the 'desktop' in that sentence eitherJan 07 22:44
MinceReven though my mobile phone often rests on the desktop :>Jan 07 22:44
oiaohmYou don't want to see what size a phone would have to be to have decent battery life with a x86 chip inside KarateTigerJan 07 22:45
KarateTigeralright, we've been talking about the dominance of windows all the time, and now you come up with examples of all the places where windows isn't dominant at allJan 07 22:45
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/07/actuary_beats_software_engineer/ "Yes, actuaries have beaten software engineers - just - to scoop the title of best job to have in 2010, according to a survey by site Careetcast.com. Coming just behind software engineers were computer systems analysts. Web developers ranked number 15."Jan 07 22:45
MinceRmicrocontrollers are also rarely x86, if ever :>Jan 07 22:45
phIRCe-localTitle: Software engineer rated best job of 2010 (almost) • The Register .::. Size~: 28.37 KBJan 07 22:45
MinceRand they run softwareJan 07 22:45
schestowitzGood for me, I'm a s/w engineerJan 07 22:45
MinceR(what else would they be running?)Jan 07 22:45
MinceRKarateTiger: windows is only dominant on the desktop, and i was explicit about thatJan 07 22:46
KarateTigerthe question wasJan 07 22:46
KarateTigerWhat stands in the way of linux to conquer the desktop marketJan 07 22:47
KarateTigerIs it microsofts monopoly?Jan 07 22:47
KarateTigerIs that it?Jan 07 22:47
oiaohmNothingJan 07 22:47
oiaohmOther than Linux will to take it.Jan 07 22:47
MinceRm$'s anticompetitive measures slow it somewhatJan 07 22:47
MinceRi expect crApple to at least attempt to slow it tooJan 07 22:47
MinceRbut i doubt they can stop itJan 07 22:47
KarateTigerLinux hasn't gained much share recentlyJan 07 22:47
KarateTigerHow much is it? 1%?Jan 07 22:48
_goblinlolJan 07 22:48
oiaohm2001-2009 most of MS anticompetive crap got taken out.Jan 07 22:48
schestowitzLies.Jan 07 22:48
MinceRnet applications says it's 1%Jan 07 22:48
schestowitzThe Microsoft lies againJan 07 22:48
MinceRbut they keep lying about thisJan 07 22:48
_goblinit depends on which Windows advocate you talk to.Jan 07 22:48
MinceRstrange how all the m$ apologists happen to take their "data" from thereJan 07 22:48
oiaohmRemember I said will to take it KarateTigerJan 07 22:48
KarateTigerI would even call 1% a high figureJan 07 22:48
MinceRit's also strange how ballmer quotes different figures internallyJan 07 22:48
oiaohmLets do some basic money here.Jan 07 22:48
KarateTigerOf all the people I know, two use linux as their main OSJan 07 22:48
MinceRKarateTiger: you would? based on what?Jan 07 22:48
oiaohmHow many people who run desktop employ programmers KarateTigerJan 07 22:49
MinceRKarateTiger: what country are you in?Jan 07 22:49
MinceRJesusland?Jan 07 22:49
KarateTigerGermanyJan 07 22:49
schestowitzKarateTiger: USian extrapolate to WorldJan 07 22:49
_goblinDidn't ballmer run a presentation where the slide claimed Linux was around 6%.....Im sure I wrote an article on that.Jan 07 22:49
oiaohmRemember programmers are Linux life blood KarateTigerJan 07 22:49
MinceRKarateTiger: how many people do you know?Jan 07 22:49
_goblinas many as he can make upJan 07 22:49
_goblinalways more than youJan 07 22:49
MinceRKarateTiger: or a better question, how many people do you know that use desktop computers but not linux?Jan 07 22:49
_goblinor anyoneJan 07 22:49
MinceR:)Jan 07 22:49
KarateTiger100 easilyJan 07 22:50
_goblineasilyJan 07 22:50
oiaohmLinux is going after the embed world first.   Ie Like phones.     Same reason they when after suppers first KarateTigerJan 07 22:50
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php/GNU/Linux_Market_ShareJan 07 22:50
phIRCe-localTitle: GNU/Linux Market Share - Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 19.54 KBJan 07 22:50
_goblini know 101 - any more offers KarateTiger>Jan 07 22:50
MinceRthat's great because that's already almost 2%Jan 07 22:50
MinceRyet you say that based on these observations you call 1% a high figureJan 07 22:50
MinceRi think you need to learn some maths, KarateTiger Jan 07 22:50
*gargoyle-grin has quit ("Leaving.")Jan 07 22:50
schestowitzSee, this is why having trolls here is unhelpful.Jan 07 22:50
KarateTigerI have 114 "friends" on facebookJan 07 22:50
_goblinive 115Jan 07 22:50
schestowitzWe spend time combating Microsoft lies rather than have discussionsJan 07 22:50
KarateTigercongratulationsJan 07 22:51
oiaohmBasically to give Linux will you need emplyment for Linux people.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:51
schestowitzIt's like a little girl screaming, "do too!!"Jan 07 22:51
schestowitzAnd the kid saying, "she started it!!"Jan 07 22:51
oiaohmThere is nothing in Linux way of taking the desktop other than the lack of will todo it KarateTiger.Jan 07 22:51
MinceRwe all know how much facebook "friends" countJan 07 22:51
oiaohmRemember there are many goverments around the world that are now purely running on Linux KarateTigerJan 07 22:51
schestowitzPeople buy themJan 07 22:51
KarateTigerYeah but there has to be some incentiveJan 07 22:51
MinceRand we all know that everyone knows with certainty what desktop OSes their facebook "friends" useJan 07 22:51
schestowitz"Follow me, I'll follow back"Jan 07 22:51
KarateTigerIt's not like linux is the sexier platformJan 07 22:51
schestowitzAnd then people move on the the Next Bgi SiteJan 07 22:52
_goblinwho said it was?Jan 07 22:52
schestowitzAnd start from scratchJan 07 22:52
KarateTigerWell it has to beJan 07 22:52
schestowitzNew DB, new binary list of "friends"Jan 07 22:52
_goblinI might be weird but I don't find software sexy.Jan 07 22:52
MinceR235024 < schestowitz> See, this is why having trolls here is unhelpful.Jan 07 22:52
KarateTigerPeople buy into sexyJan 07 22:52
MinceRbetter ban them, then.Jan 07 22:52
KarateTigerMac is sexyJan 07 22:52
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Tasksel Installation System | Linuxers - a LAMP server the easy way on Ubuntu / Debian http://tinyurl.com/ye7ylguJan 07 22:52
MinceRonly for sheepleJan 07 22:52
phIRCe-localTitle: Tasksel Installation System | Linuxers .::. Size~: 29.99 KBJan 07 22:52
KarateTigermaybeJan 07 22:52
oiaohmWeb serveys don't really show business or govement usage of machines either KarateTigerJan 07 22:52
MinceRpeople with some taste don't go for the plain white toilet seat designJan 07 22:52
MinceRmolded of cheap white plasticJan 07 22:53
_goblinI dont!Jan 07 22:53
MinceRat least not because it's "omg sexy"Jan 07 22:53
schestowitzSoftware is sexyJan 07 22:53
KarateTigerI don't know any company around me that uses linux for their workersJan 07 22:53
MinceRand i don't find spontaneously exploding products sexy eitherJan 07 22:53
schestowitz_goblin: remember that Paris+Tux pic?Jan 07 22:53
KarateTigerThey use it for servers but not desktopsJan 07 22:53
MinceRKarateTiger: i think you're perverted.Jan 07 22:53
_goblinschestowitz: LOL Compiling without panties...oh yeah I had forgotten...!Jan 07 22:53
oiaohmKarateTiger: sections of IBM and cisco systems are Linux.Jan 07 22:53
MinceRlolJan 07 22:53
schestowitzoiaohm joined a short time agoJan 07 22:54
KarateTigerand they have lots and lots of legacy software that sometimes doesn't even run on windows 2000Jan 07 22:54
schestowitzoiaohm: don't feed him much, it's a Microsoft troll pretending to be neutralJan 07 22:54
MinceRhm, doesn't run on recent windowsJan 07 22:54
KarateTigerand worse than the legacy software is the legacy hardwareJan 07 22:54
oiaohmSo you might be better of on wine on Linux  KarateTigerJan 07 22:54
MinceRi'm sure that makes ballmer's gang happyJan 07 22:54
MinceRthey'll surely buy vista8 when it comes out, won't they?Jan 07 22:54
schestowitzThey get it freeJan 07 22:54
MinceRso they can find out their sw doesn't run on that either!Jan 07 22:54
KarateTigeryou can't really control hardware through wineJan 07 22:54
oiaohmReason why we get a lot of users over a winehq is that old windows applications that don't run on windows 2000 lots of them run in wine.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:54
schestowitzIf they are bribed with it, they'll say good thingsJan 07 22:54
schestowitzOf course, that's the gifting mentalityJan 07 22:55
MinceR"control hardware" is about as vague as it getsJan 07 22:55
KarateTigerNo they are reluctant to even switch to vistaJan 07 22:55
_goblin"give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, shower him with freebies and he'll shill Microsoft for life"Jan 07 22:55
MinceRKarateTiger: what does this tell you about the future of winblows' installed base?Jan 07 22:55
oiaohmOther thing lot of old hardware that was good quality has drivers for Linux that windows 2000 does not either KarateTigerJan 07 22:55
KarateTigerlike, huge sorting machines?Jan 07 22:55
KarateTigeri'm not talking about off-the-shelf hardwareJan 07 22:56
oiaohmI know many mail system world wide running on Linux so sorting machines should not be that hard.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:56
oiaohmAlso Linux drivers for items like that can be pure userspace and supported for every.  KarateTigerJan 07 22:57
oiaohmevery/everJan 07 22:57
KarateTigerIt's not that easyJan 07 22:57
KarateTigerOf course you can develop such a system to run on linuxJan 07 22:57
-BNc/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] "patch Tuesday" is like having guards once per month while the rest of the month goes unguarded but still attacked; evildoers work 24 / 7Jan 07 22:57
oiaohmReally it is cost to have driver built from scratch about 25000 USD.Jan 07 22:57
KarateTigerBut to reverse engineer it when you even have a running contractJan 07 22:57
MinceRso controlling a "huge sorting machine" is a typical "desktop" task then?Jan 07 22:57
KarateTigerlolJan 07 22:58
oiaohmThat value includes reversing with the open soruce world KarateTigerJan 07 22:58
KarateTigerthat's what they pay for changing a few lines of codeJan 07 22:58
MinceRanyway, the hw supplier will need to do something about it considering that even win2k is not supported by m$Jan 07 22:58
oiaohmAny idea why it so cheep KarateTigerJan 07 22:58
KarateTigersmall marketJan 07 22:58
oiaohmCompanies like redhat expect to sell support contracts for the rest of the life of the device.Jan 07 22:58
KarateTigerIt's not like those machines don't work anymoreJan 07 22:59
KarateTigerIt's just that they work for decadesJan 07 22:59
oiaohmNo machine lasts forever.Jan 07 22:59
KarateTigerIf maintained, it will last as long as its reasonableJan 07 23:00
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oiaohmAlso old windows OS's don't install and operate well on new CPU's.Jan 07 23:00
KarateTigerIt's always a decision between investing tens of thousands for a small change or hundreds of thousands for a new systemJan 07 23:00
MinceR"reasonable" is not "infinite"Jan 07 23:00
oiaohmSo unless that thing is dos based you will run into hell KarateTigerJan 07 23:00
KarateTigerNobody needs infinityJan 07 23:00
MinceRindeedJan 07 23:00
KarateTigerThe sun blows up in five billions years, by then they will have updatedJan 07 23:01
oiaohmIe there is only so much you can repair the machine.Jan 07 23:01
MinceRwhat you need is thinking forwardJan 07 23:01
MinceRthe sun will only affect the solar system, we can get away from that if we survive that longJan 07 23:01
oiaohmNow is the sorting machine running dos cna go to the freedos to run it software.Jan 07 23:01
KarateTigerwe can be lucky to make it to the next centuryJan 07 23:01
MinceRm$ won't make that long thoughJan 07 23:01
oiaohmCPU in use last a max of about 20 years KarateTigerJan 07 23:01
KarateTigerthe machine itself runs does, the clients run windows98Jan 07 23:02
oiaohmEven if you can maintaine the rest of the machine that is going to get it.Jan 07 23:02
KarateTigerdoes=dosJan 07 23:02
KarateTigerIn order to change the software you would have to reverse engineer it, and that would be a breach of contractJan 07 23:02
oiaohmdos is fine.  That application will go to freedos when hardware has to be replaced.Jan 07 23:02
oiaohmWindows 98 is not fine.Jan 07 23:02
KarateTigerwellJan 07 23:03
MinceRyou could run winblows 98 in a vmJan 07 23:03
KarateTiger"it works"Jan 07 23:03
MinceRlolJan 07 23:03
KarateTigeryeah but you can't really interface the hardware that wayJan 07 23:03
MinceRand how do the clients "interface the hardware"?Jan 07 23:03
oiaohmO yes you can from a vm KarateTigerJan 07 23:03
oiaohmWhere have you been.Jan 07 23:03
KarateTigerit works well enough to not completely throw it outJan 07 23:03
MinceRit won't work at all foreverJan 07 23:04
oiaohmthere is hardware pass threw.  KarateTigerJan 07 23:04
KarateTigerwhy?Jan 07 23:04
MinceRbetter get comfortable with that fact ;)Jan 07 23:04
MinceRbecause hardware decaysJan 07 23:04
KarateTigerHmm idkJan 07 23:04
oiaohmNow how is reversing breach of contract.Jan 07 23:04
oiaohmDo you own the machine out right.Jan 07 23:04
KarateTigerYeah but you also have a contract to the softwareJan 07 23:05
KarateTigerwell anywaJan 07 23:05
oiaohmThe contact of reversing of software means cannot decomplie.Jan 07 23:05
KarateTigerIt's not necessary to talk about this in every breadthJan 07 23:05
oiaohmDoes not mean cannot blackbox it.Jan 07 23:05
KarateTigerIt's just one exampleJan 07 23:05
KarateTigerOf which there are millionsJan 07 23:05
oiaohmEvery one of these examples Linux is replacing KarateTigerJan 07 23:05
KarateTigerWhere it is more economical to stick with the old crap until it completely falls apartJan 07 23:06
oiaohmAnd Linux allows you to stay current and stick to old crap longer.Jan 07 23:06
KarateTigeryeah, maybe at a rate of 1% per yearJan 07 23:06
oiaohmAs long as what you get is linux compadible in the first place.Jan 07 23:06
KarateTigerwell idk maintaining custom systems is a pita whether you use linux or notJan 07 23:07
oiaohmNot at all.Jan 07 23:07
oiaohmLinux supports a thing calls a stable syscall system that never changes.  That can do drivers.Jan 07 23:07
KarateTigeryeah but things DO changeJan 07 23:08
oiaohmSo writen once run for ever.  KarateTigerJan 07 23:08
KarateTigerthings need to be adjustedJan 07 23:08
oiaohmSince 1991 the syscall system has not changed a call operation once.Jan 07 23:08
oiaohmWhat you call rock solid stable.Jan 07 23:08
KarateTigeryeah, well I gotta go nowJan 07 23:08
KarateTigerall hail open systems ;)Jan 07 23:09
*KarateTiger has quit ("Leaving")Jan 07 23:09
MinceRweird.Jan 07 23:09
oiaohmNormal MS arguements.Jan 07 23:09
oiaohmThey always walk themselves into a wall against people who truly know Linux.Jan 07 23:10
oiaohmI did not get to use my best.  1% per year is more than fast enough with failures and everything else to see non Linux hardware disappear in 20 years.Jan 07 23:13
*KarateTiger (n=Rocket@e179019109.adsl.alicedsl.de) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 23:17
rnbpeople from germany come here to argue in support of microsoft?Jan 07 23:18
MinceRapparentlyJan 07 23:18
rnbthats a strange feature of this channel i didnt expectJan 07 23:18
rnbi use vim for all my programmingJan 07 23:19
rnbproperly configured, vim does everything an IDE doesJan 07 23:19
*KarateTiger has quit (Client Quit)Jan 07 23:21
oiaohmMy personal taste is not vim.  But if someone likes it that is there business.Jan 07 23:22
schestowitzrnb: Novell and MicrosoftJan 07 23:23
schestowitzMaybe Microsoft has an ecosystem/shills there too, as they came from that same ISP quite a lot (in BN comments too)Jan 07 23:23
schestowitzhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/07/eurostar_failure_2/Jan 07 23:23
phIRCe-localTitle: Eurostar goes tits up again • The Register .::. Size~: 26.82 KBJan 07 23:23
schestowitzoiaohm: I use Kate. Love her!Jan 07 23:24
schestowitzShe does tabs and all... stable but with a long undo stack can take up a quarter of a gig.Jan 07 23:24
MinceRthat makes me think of something different from what was probably intended.Jan 07 23:24
MinceRKate can be made to behave a bit like VimJan 07 23:24
schestowitzI partly jokeJan 07 23:24
MinceRsadly, the :s command doesn't work on a visual rangeJan 07 23:25
schestowitzBut many kate users have fun with the nameJan 07 23:25
schestowitzMinceR: yes, vim modeJan 07 23:25
schestowitzThat come in kde 4.4 IIRCJan 07 23:25
schestowitzThey do it properlyJan 07 23:25
schestowitzWith shortcuts and aqllJan 07 23:25
schestowitz*allJan 07 23:25
schestowitzAlso, in-line spellchecker has been merged into kateJan 07 23:25
MinceR:)Jan 07 23:25
schestowitzGive it a try when it's outJan 07 23:25
schestowitzit's a powerful editor with plugins and stuff. And it used Oxygen/other qt themesJan 07 23:26
oiaohmI wish Kdevelop 4 development could speed up.Jan 07 23:26
schestowitzThunderbird visually matches Oxygen for me, with a skinJan 07 23:26
oiaohmIts a nice tool other than some of the missing Kdevelop 3 featuresJan 07 23:26
MinceRhttp://failblog.org/2010/01/06/field-trip-fail/Jan 07 23:28
phIRCe-localTitle: I bet that kid is popular in class « FAIL Blog: Epic Fail Pictures and Videos of Owned, Pwnd and Fail Moments .::. Size~: 2275.91 KBJan 07 23:28
schestowitzhttp://rawstory.com/2010/01/obamas-top-counterterror-official-skiing-plane-bomb-attack/Jan 07 23:28
phIRCe-localTitle: Obamas top counterterror official kept skiing after Christmas bomb attempt |  Raw Story .::. Size~: 36.97 KBJan 07 23:28
schestowitzMinceR: how old are the parents? 8?Jan 07 23:30
MinceRmentally, yesJan 07 23:30
oiaohmhttp://news.netcraft.com/archives/2010/01/07/january_2010_web_server_survey.html  Interesting. qq.com has disapeared from there numbers.Jan 07 23:30
phIRCe-localTitle: January 2010 Web Server Survey - Netcraft .::. Size~: 19.09 KBJan 07 23:30
MinceRwhich is quite common nowadaysJan 07 23:30
oiaohmNext question how many other servers are out there that Netcraft cannot see.Jan 07 23:30
MinceRoiaohm: Netcraft Confirms QQ Is Dying? :>Jan 07 23:30
oiaohmNo MinceRJan 07 23:31
oiaohmNetcraft cannot tell.  If it being blocked or not.Jan 07 23:31
MinceR(referring, of course, to old /. copypasta "Netcraft Confirms BSD Is Dying")Jan 07 23:31
schestowitzhttp://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010725235_statebudget07m.htmlJan 07 23:32
phIRCe-localTitle: Local News | Treasurer warns state will go broke if lawmakers don't act | Seattle Times Newspaper .::. Size~: 62.62 KBJan 07 23:32
schestowitzMicrosoft's home stateJan 07 23:32
*_goblin has quit ("Ex-Chat")Jan 07 23:32
MinceRmaybe m$ will buy the state once it's cheap enoughJan 07 23:32
MinceRhostile takeoverJan 07 23:32
MinceRthen they can rename it to something they like more, such as "Windowsland" or "Microsoftland"Jan 07 23:33
MinceRand connect One Microsoft Way to a state highway and rename the highway to One Microsoft WayJan 07 23:33
MinceRoopsJan 07 23:33
MinceRs/One //gJan 07 23:33
schestowitzMinceR: they can'tJan 07 23:34
schestowitzMicrosoft has no money, eitherJan 07 23:34
schestowitzIt has imaginary assetsJan 07 23:34
MinceRbut the stock exchange doesn't know thatJan 07 23:34
schestowitzOn which its loans are based/floating uponJan 07 23:34
MinceRneither does the government of Jesusland, apparentlyJan 07 23:34
MinceRas long as they can make others believe they have money, they can also spend itJan 07 23:34
MinceRthe wonders of modern economyJan 07 23:34
schestowitzMoody's, the corrupt firm already busted by Dennis Kucinich, gave Microsoft debt a recommendation (AA IIRC)Jan 07 23:34
schestowitzI had a discussion about this todayJan 07 23:35
schestowitzA friend of mine who's a journalistJan 07 23:35
schestowitzI told him at the gym that the press abstains from talking about the doom of the Western economyJan 07 23:35
schestowitzHe eventually defended this by insisting that the press talks about the East as rising powerJan 07 23:36
schestowitzWhich is utterly flaseJan 07 23:36
schestowitzThe press eemphasises thisJan 07 23:36
schestowitzThen it turned to a chat about whether the press should report what peopel want (horoscopes and dross) or what they need to knowJan 07 23:36
schestowitzHe didn't give up easilyJan 07 23:36
schestowitzHe did acknowledge that business drives what's reportedJan 07 23:36
MinceRwhy does the western press want to make it seem as if the east was a rising power?Jan 07 23:36
schestowitzIt started when he was telling me some 'junk' news about Khadaffi's son and BeyonceJan 07 23:37
schestowitzMinceR: no, oppositeJan 07 23:37
schestowitzThey spinJan 07 23:37
schestowitzThey tell people mostly what they want to hear to:Jan 07 23:37
schestowitz1) keep/increase # of subsJan 07 23:38
schestowitz2) make their funders happy (Big Business)Jan 07 23:38
schestowitzHe said something like, "do you not think panic would harm the economy?"Jan 07 23:38
oiaohmDoes not matter.Jan 07 23:38
schestowitzAnd I'm like, "yes, but not as much as public looting (bailouts)"Jan 07 23:38
oiaohmArm is the company that wants MS dead.Jan 07 23:38
oiaohmThese days.Jan 07 23:38
schestowitzAs some say, "you don't tell the cancer patient to take it easy and ignore"Jan 07 23:38
oiaohmFor the same reason Sun wanted MS dead.Jan 07 23:39
schestowitzYou need to cure this disease now, not laterJan 07 23:39
oiaohmMS refusal to support there chips.Jan 07 23:39
schestowitzThe deficit here is hufeJan 07 23:39
schestowitz*hugeJan 07 23:39
MinceRmany companies want m$ dead, don't they?Jan 07 23:39
schestowitzAbout $3,000,000,000,000 in debtJan 07 23:39
oiaohmYep MinceRJan 07 23:39
MinceRrare is the company in IT that m$ hasn't harmed.Jan 07 23:39
MinceReven their lapdog novell.Jan 07 23:39
schestowitzHehe.Jan 07 23:39
schestowitzNovell is small nowJan 07 23:39
oiaohmHarm will always return to you 7 fold.Jan 07 23:40
schestowitzHardly any news about NovellJan 07 23:40
schestowitzI reckon Brainshare 20TEN will flopJan 07 23:40
oiaohmThe question is not if but when.Jan 07 23:40
MinceRthat only applies to wiccans, doesn't it? :>Jan 07 23:40
oiaohmNop  MinceRJan 07 23:40
oiaohmWiccan believe doing good deeds will also return to you 7 fold.Jan 07 23:41
MinceRalso.Jan 07 23:41
oiaohmReal world does not follow that.Jan 07 23:41
MinceRoh.Jan 07 23:41
oiaohmPeople forget good deeds.Jan 07 23:41
oiaohmBut remember bad deeds done.Jan 07 23:41
oiaohmAnd when they remember bad deeds they tell there friends so increasing harm.Jan 07 23:41
oiaohmSo its at least 7 fold return of harm.Jan 07 23:42
oiaohmAnd that is if you have hurt a person without many friends and there friends don't have many friends.Jan 07 23:42
oiaohmmy 7 fold is not based on wiccan following but on human nature MinceRJan 07 23:43
MinceRicJan 07 23:43
oiaohmRemember ibm did a lot of evil and when it returned 7 fold on them they almost ceast to exist.Jan 07 23:44
oiaohmMS has done way more evil than IBM had.  So I would really hate to be MS.Jan 07 23:45
*Ender2070 (n=Ender207@bas1-toronto12-1167878414.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovellJan 07 23:47
oiaohmhttp://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-379690.html  Lets hide setting from users then when users find out make out is a developer feature.Jan 07 23:58
phIRCe-localTitle: Many 'GodModes' to be found in Windows 7 | Tech News on ZDNet .::. Size~: 78 KBJan 07 23:58

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